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n this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, we dive into the entrepreneurial journey of Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, a strategic consulting firm. Summer shares how a vacation epiphany led her to start a business while caring for a newborn. Her firm now partners with private equity-backed companies, helping middle-market businesses transition from startups to structured entities ready for expansion. We explore the early challenges of entrepreneurship, including securing initial revenue from clients like Gulf States Toyota. Summer discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic unexpectedly fueled growth in the middle market and healthcare sectors. She emphasizes the importance of building high-quality teams through strategic hiring, focusing on complementary skills and an ownership mentality. Craig Group stands out with its hands-on approach and a patent-pending software platform for sales and marketing forecasting. Summer highlights the significance of creating a flexible work environment that prioritizes excellence and authentic client relationships. Her innovative approach to consulting demonstrates how companies can adapt and thrive in challenging business landscapes. The conversation reveals the delicate balance of cost-saving strategies and necessary investments. Summer shares insights into maintaining a remote work culture built on trust and continuous improvement. We learn about the power of problem-solving, client feedback, and the determination required to transform business challenges into opportunities. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, shares her entrepreneurial journey that started with an epiphany during a vacation while caring for her newborn. Craig Group focuses on strategic consulting for private equity-backed middle-market companies, helping them transition from successful startups to structured entities. The early days of the business involved securing foundational clients like Gulf States Toyota, with initial revenues critical for startup success. Summer discusses the positive impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on business growth, particularly in the middle market and healthcare sectors. Strategic hiring decisions and fostering a company culture of complementary skills and flexible work environments are highlighted as key to building high-quality teams. Craig Group differentiates itself with a hands-on, results-driven approach and a patent-pending software platform that enhances sales and marketing forecasting. Building trust with elite clients through effective communication and personal interactions is emphasized as crucial for maintaining successful business relationships. The episode underscores the importance of collecting client feedback to ensure service excellence and continuous improvement. Summer uses her passion for mountain climbing as a metaphor for her entrepreneurial journey, highlighting the determination and vision required to navigate business challenges. The conversation concludes with reflections on the importance of strategic growth consulting and the ongoing journey of team building and client success. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Craig Group GUESTS Summer CraigAbout Summer TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Summer Craig, founder and CEO of Craig Group. Summer's passion for excellence has helped fuel her company's growth, and she and her team's authentic approach to delivering for clients has formed relationships built on trust. Summer, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. Summer: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. Chris: So I know there's a lot for us to talk about. I want to start with giving you the opportunity to tell the audience who your company is and what are you known for. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I love your podcast. I love what you're doing, telling people's stories, so I'm glad to be here. Chris: Thank you. Summer: Yeah, my story is a unique one, very interesting. It actually started with an actual epiphany that I had. I had a true, you know, entrepreneurial lightning strike moment. That that moment was sitting in Frisco, colorado, on vacation, while rocking my three month old third child, which is never the time that you should start a company. But I but that was my I had an epiphany, and the epiphany really was this that I was always going to work very hard, I was going to outwork the people around me, I was going to outwork my peers and I was in a fantastic role, fantastic job. But I had the epiphany that if I was going to always work that hard, no matter what, I could create more value for myself and for the economy by starting my own firm. And I knew that I needed to start my own firm because of that that, if I'm going to always do this, why not build something instead of working for someone else and creating value for somebody else? So that was the epiphany, and it was a true anxiety ridden, sweat inducing moment when I knew that I was going to start a company, you know, despite having a newborn third child. But fast forward. And you know, we're five and a half years later, and you know, we have a firm of 32 people and it turns out the Epiphany was the right way to go for me, that's a really unique story. Chris: And I'm sure your husband thought it was part of brain fog, but you proved him wrong. Summer: Yeah, actually he's been nothing. I think he said okay, sure, you know a little bit, maybe a little more, thinking like oh, we'll see what, we'll see what actually happens here. Chris: Okay, so. So it sounds like the inspiration for you was I want to do this for myself and build something that's mine. Tell us what it is that you've built. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. So what we've built is we built a strategic consulting firm. So we consult with sponsor-backed typically private equity-backed portfolio companies. We really focus on the middle market, lower middle market. What we do with those companies is we come in at different phases in the hold period even pre, even in LOI and we support top line organic growth. So we've built a system of tools and a system of really smart people and a platform that creates a formulaic way to streamline processes, streamline people, streamline technology for growth in these companies. The solution is really right size for companies that have been really successful but haven't really worked on their operations and growth. So they're selling whatever they're selling widgets, whatever it is but have they truly really looked and said is there anybody else I could sell to? Could I be doing something better? Could I be faster, could I do this more cheaply? They haven't really had to do that, but when the PE sponsors come in, you definitely do have to do that and what we're finding is that in a lot of in-house and PE there is a trend of hiring operating partners, which is a newer trend. So some have expertise on top line growth, but for the most part, that expertise is not in-house. So the PE firms need to go outside of their doors to get support to help these firms grow. Chris: So it sounds like you take a company that's almost been successful, despite themselves. That's right and help them systemize that that's right, so that they can maybe leverage it for more success. Summer: Well, yeah, and I mean I hope some of my clients are listening, but many are in Texas and I'll say it's so impressive, a lot of industrial manufacturing it unbelievably successful, either family businesses or entrepreneur-led businesses. But you're right, they haven't really had to. I'm using, you know, using air quotes here, but try that hard because they've had a great product right they've had a great story. the entrepreneur, the founder, had a really great connected network right, so that gets you to a certain amount of growth. But then when you have, you know, pe dollars coming in who are betting on you, there's a growth mandate and the growth mandate that that activity to grow is not the same as what it takes to start a business, so growth is harder and it takes more structure, and that's exactly right. We come in and say, man, this is awesome, how can we take what's awesome, do more of what's awesome, and let's try to reduce some of the risk that you have in the business, probably because nothing's repeatable, nothing's written down, maybe there's no technology supporting system, so we help them build that structure. Chris: And it helps them go to scale. Summer: That's exactly right. Chris: So let me take you back to the beginning, right after the epiphany. What were some of the first things you remember doing to kind of start the business? And, as you said, you build this thing of your own. What were some of those basic building blocks and things you did? Summer: Yeah, Well, for me personally, it was. The first thing was, you know, pray, look for guidance and then talk to people. So I spoke to a lot of people in my network just saying, hey, I've got this crazy idea, I want to build a firm. And the initial idea, while still very similar to what we do, was really around looking at sales and marketing and being able to tie the two together and prove ROI. So that's the crux of what we do right is show your work, show that this works. And I have a long career of traditional marketing. Marketing and marketing has always struggled to tie themselves to results. And that was really, you know, the core idea, you know, back when I originally founded it. But at the time I was working for Gulf States Toyota best people in the world and I'll never work for another company again. That was the, I think I topped out working for them and being, you know, affiliated with the Friedkin family. They are just salt of the earth. So I was very lucky. At the time when I had my epiphany, I said, well, wouldn't this be great if I built my business plan and I started my company but I already had a client? Wouldn't that just make me feel better? Chris: For those of you listening, it's the ideal thing to do. Summer: It really is the ideal and I think, as an entrepreneur especially somebody that I wanted to do something, but it does mitigate some risk when you first file that paperwork and you know you've got some revenue coming in. So I was lucky enough to have Gulf States Toyota before I actually quit my job, they had agreed to hire my firm, which at the time was me, and we had a great relationship and we ended up entering into a contract where I was consulting with them and I was able to do that the day I officially opened, you know, opened Craig Group and opened my doors, and I think that gave me just a little bit of peace, knowing that there was revenue coming in while I was building all the structure that you have to do, which, honestly, is quite painful. Chris: Right, it's very painful. It's always more work than you even can think. Right, absolutely. Summer: And if you've not done it before, which? Who has? That's something, that's a skill set that you know. I mean, I guess you know lawyers do it all the time. You probably do it all the time, right, setting up entities. But if you I just had this, I you know, probably should have advised, got more advice, but I definitely was able to say, oh well, I can do this, I can. And what state do you incorporate and why, and what do you do, and who do you bring in, and is it all those questions? As an entrepreneur, you have to just do it. Chris: We advise on those issues all the time. I was in a conversation yesterday with someone on the same issues and always tell people look, because as the entrepreneur, the other thing you're doing at the very beginning is trying to save every penny you can, and people will maybe try to do it themselves on the legal side, and I try to counsel people. It's an investment in your business, not an expense, and but try, you have to keep it manageable you're exactly right, exactly right. Summer: And luckily I was at that juncture. It was a small enough entity where I was able to get by with it. I don't cannot today with. I have, you know, a wonderful legal team, but that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, a wonderful legal team. But that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, get started. But again, I was lucky that I had a client and so I had revenue coming in. It really enabled me to get a lot of things done because you didn't have to worry so much about that. And I remember thinking my first goal was, oh, you know, back half of the year, six months, if I could just, you know, make my salary back right, thinking like, oh, I'll just replace my income. Well, that I quickly got client two, client three, and that I blew past that goal. It was amazing. It was a little bit of a you know it, who you know. I really talked to people and got advice and those ended up being some of my clients eventually, when people that I was asking for advice. So that was great. But it was such a funny little goal, which was okay, because if I can do that, then it's like, okay, I've done something that hasn't been a detriment to my family. I'm adding to the family kitty. Well, we realized like, oh wait, now I can. There's more here. Chris: So I was just thinking as you were answering that question. You said it's been just over five years. Summer: So, given the calendar, that means you started in 2019 and then the world went upside down. Chris: So let's talk about, I mean, every business that starts out. It's going to face some headwinds and obviously this was a pretty big one. But just walk us through some of the challenges you faced and how you managed through that, given that you just had this new business. Summer: Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. Business. Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. I was just looking at right before COVID so COVID was in March and February I was just looking at expanding and getting some more office space because I'm hiring people. I was looking at leases. So that was hilarious, right, because the minute COVID hit, you know you don't sign the you don't sign the lease, which was great that we hadn't signed it yet, so that was just a fortuitous that was a God thing, but I will say there's a few good things that came out of COVID. In general, COVID was very good for Craig Group and here's why it was good for Craig Group. I think that middle market businesses that I was working with and we also work with healthcare companies as well, especially healthcare technology, B2B and B2C healthcare I think that what COVID brought to us was that people always did, but then they had to go and find your business online Right, and probably on their phone Right. So if you were not ready with a digital presence and for sales and marketing, so if somebody could not seamlessly buy something from you online or if they couldn't research your product online, you were toast in COVID. Chris: Very true yeah. Summer: And even B2B industrial manufacturing businesses that never cared a day in their life about their website. All of a sudden they need their spec sheets to be posted online because they can't drive over and drop them off in person right? They're not going to trade shows, right? So website, but not just the website, really the content, the interaction. And then how good is your email response? How good is your team on the phone? How good are they at working those leads that just got spotlighted? And on the healthcare side, as you can imagine, about COVID, people are scared to death. At that time, telehealth was nascent. Chris: Right. Summer: Pretty terrible still, kind of, and they realized we have to invest here. Patients don't know how to get in touch with us. Everybody's scared. People aren't coming into the doctor's office or the hospital because everyone's afraid that they're going to get COVID. So the messaging opportunity for what we do, which is growth, really about growth. We no longer had to convince our clients you need to take action, because before pre-COVID, and even either at the same time of COVID, there was also this shift with the markets too. Around PE also said oh wait, this has been like really good times and I actually need to start building organic growth instead of just buying another company and doing roll-ups. So this happened very right after COVID. So those two things we did not. We stopped having to tell people. People would ask us why are you doing growth support? We don't need that, right, and nobody says that now, right, no, there's no argument. So COVID, plus what was happening in kind of the deal-making PE market, which we can, that's another. That was another big change for us, but it just helped people say, oh my gosh, we need help. We need help right now. And that was a huge. It was a huge growth time for us. So we grew significantly in 2020 and 2021. Chris: Stars aligned, it sounds like. Summer: Stars aligned and again, it was just one of those who would have. There would have been no way to know. Chris: Forecast, foresee or plan no way. Summer: The only way that I was able to do is I said we were able to kind of make hay, which was okay. We have a door here, so how can I be really good about scaling in a smart way? So I didn't hire tons of people, I hired slowly. I never wanted to have layoff right, so I was able to say I have an opportunity, let's scale slowly. Due to that growth, we're also bootstrapped. So we were able to fund our whole company out of revenue which, especially at that time, I wasn't going to go fundraise. It was just so we were just. We're really lucky that we were able to build something, grow, but grow in a. We weren't growing too fast that we were getting out over our skis. We were able to service our clients, grow, you know, as needed. Then it ended up being a good time for us to kind of get our feet under us about who we are as a firm. Chris: It's a great segue when you talk about the growth you were seeing from the client revenue side forced you to start building your team. Yes, so let's talk about how you went about. One setting the strategy of not growing too fast, because you can fail when you do that, but really focusing on making sure you're making the right hires and adding to your team in the right way. Summer: Yeah Well, I'll say I don't always make the right hires and I've made so many mistakes. If you said that, we'd know you're lying, yeah if there was a thing that I think I could always do better at, it was being even better at hiring. I mean, to me it's the hardest thing that I think we do as business leaders, as CEOs and entrepreneurs. So that is something that I think you just get better at, but you still fail. So that's hard. I have no secret. I have a few things I've learned on that side, but I will say, on the growth side too. Before that, as a person, I'm just a fiscally conservative person in general, so I think some entrepreneurs can get especially more kind of visionary and I think I for sure hold the vision, but I'm very conservative. But that helped us. I think I've had to almost pull myself off of that, so I almost can be too conservative, right. So that's something that I've had to learn about myself, which is I need a counterweight to say you know, do this. But at that time it worked. It was a good way to scale. So I am conservative there, but I did realize in terms of people, if I was really going to grow and we have this value prop about growing with sponsored backed businesses. I myself while I am married to somebody that works in PE and I know a lot about PE. I never myself worked inside the doors of PE and I really had to have that in my firm in order to just have that credibility, you know, just to. Okay got it right and so I did decide very early on. We're growing, we're having a lot of success. I knew that I had to have somebody else at a partnership level that was going to be able to move us to the next level, and it had to be somebody that did not have my skills. Chris: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Summer: So I needed somebody that was very, you know, has a different background than me, had a different skill set than me, and so that was, you know, really a game-changing hire. So we brought on at that time Libby Covington. And again, she comes out of private equity, she was in-house at Cap street but also worked at law firms and then had also operated in-house with the Doggett family, so we had a lot in common in that sense. But I knew what she brought and what I brought were going to be complimentary to the market and that was ended up being true. You know that that was. But it was hard right, deciding to bring in, you know, somebody. It's really hard. Chris: You make it sound really easy. Summer: It's not. Chris: Because a lot of people entrepreneurs, maybe just humans in general we tend, you know people that we're like, so you tend to hire people like you Absolutely. Instead of doing. What you should be doing is what you did. And how do you hire someone that fills you out right the other side of the skill sets that you don't have to make the strong team. So you know, kudos to you for seeing that, and I know of Libby from her days at Cap Street. So so then you bring Libby on and there's 30 other people you've hired in a few years. Summer: That's right, that's right. Well, I have, you know, tricia Eaton. She started with me. She was actually my first employee, trisha Eaton, she started with me, she was actually my first employee. She now is in an operations role for me. She's been with me since day one. You can do anything. She's the person that can do anything. You just give her a problem and she just goes and solves it. So she has just been my right-hand woman and I couldn't do this without her. So we had her, we had Libby and then, quickly, we had to hire some subject matter experts. So me and Libby cannot keep delivering all the work. Patricia can't deliver all the work. So we really had to go and fill out the teams and I focused on hiring high-margin employees. So where could I bill and where could I charge for their expertise? Sure, right. And then if there was employees where we didn't really use them that much or it was really low margin, we would usually go with consultants. So I had a bench of 1099s. And we still do. We've less. So now we still do. And again, that was another way where we scaled more slowly. So it didn't, you know, have to get ahead of ourselves on building. When was it the right to have the full-time versus the part-time. That was also a benefit of COVID. So I think COVID and I'm seeing this today too it really, I think, enabled people to work the way that was better for them, like there was a new definition of work. Chris: For sure. Yeah, and it's being talked about every day. Summer: Of course, and especially in your industry too, in law firms with a very kind of traditional track, and I think there's people that say I want to work and do really good work, but I can't work in this way, and whether it was in the office or not, but even if it was maybe I want to do great work, but I need to do it 30 hours a week because I'm taking care of my aging mother or I want this lifestyle. I will make less money, but I need to work this much time from this location. So we leaned in hard on that Huge value prop for us. So I think that was one of my successes of being able to hire really great talent, because I was able to align with the times, because it was what it was but also to truly say I want your best work. I don't care if you need to live in Miami, right, I don't care. If you're telling me I really have to work 30 hours a week because I have personal responsibilities, I'm like great, give me your best 30 hours a week. To me that's better than any you know 40 plus hours a week person. That isn't maybe the best. Chris: Sure. Summer: Right. So I, we scaled that, we scaled through that way, we also would. We have a and we still do this today. We bring people on and we do a 60 day trial, and so and it's written, it's papered up and it says if this isn't a fit fit, we're going to separate fast. Chris: Yeah, there's a lot of value in that and it does help the saying of hire slow, fire fast, absolutely. So you get a test run at it. Summer: That's right, and sometimes you can't hire slow. Sometimes I wish I could. I've got I don't know four roles we're hiring right now and I need them to be filled yesterday. Chris: Right. Summer: But at least we've learned that we do have to have a trial period and we have to be eyes wide open about it. You know we're and I. Just part of our culture and it's part of our values is we do excellent work. So excellence is part of our culture. But also, if you can't meet that excellence, you will be let go, like we fire people, and it's not a scary thing, it's just. You know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in houses we don't have. Just you know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in house is we don't have middle managers. You know we don't have that. You're, you're, everyone's in the spotlight. It's that ownership mentality that's right and everybody's like that, so everyone's in the spotlight. There's no middle, you know. So you years, I mean there's been lots of not home runs you know, it's been you know there's hills and valleys there with hiring. Chris: Well, that's good for people to hear. Right, You're not always going to get it right. There's ups and downs, just like in life. But if you're, if you have a mission, like like Craig group does and like our firm does, then you know what your why is. And if something veers off from that, then you stay true to the why and then make those hard decisions. Summer: Yeah, and it always is. It's always hard. It's the hardest thing we do. Chris: No doubt. I want to talk a little bit about innovation, because clearly what your company's doing is innovative and for PE firms. But just in your space, how do you go about fostering innovation amongst your team and encouraging it within the company? Summer: Yeah, I mean, I think that it is who we are. Honestly, it has to do with every single person that we hire. Again, even going back to that, we don't have any middle managers mindset, which is there's no medium, there's no mediocrity, we're always how could you have done better? How could we have done something faster? Wait, what tools did we not use this time? So those questions are asked. Every engagement we have, I'll say we're doing something pretty different. We do have a few competitors out there not very many, but we do something unique. I mean, we are consultants, we do consult, but we're certainly not a consulting firm typically. You know, we're not an Accenture right, because? Why? Because our people actually get in and then they actually do the work, Not that we don't do at Accenture, but that's our model, it is what we do. So we're boots on the ground, so we actually do the work. So we're not an agency, but we do some agency work right. So and then on the technology side, we have a software platform. It's patent pending. It's all about forecasting and how do we get better at forecasting sales and marketing? And if we can forecast better, we can then make action and take action more quickly. And so those are the three things we do. And again, we have some competitors, but what we do as a company inherently is pretty innovative, Like we're doing something a little different, Like the skill set is a little different. We move faster, you know. We have a different, you know. So we are doing something different. I think everybody at the firm knows that and they're aware of it, it's just ingrained in your culture, it's just who they are. Chris: They know it, and I've been to your website so I'll tell you it absolutely comes across from your website, which I know is part of the thought that went into design of the website. Right, you show up different Yep, so it seems like that's part of when you're hiring these people you're looking for someone that can fit that. Summer: That's exactly right that DNA that innovative mindset. It's right and something that Libby and I talk about all the time and again, I fail on it. Sometimes I succeed, but we hire and we've really landed on this for Craig Group is we have to hire for people that just figure it out? They just get it done. It's like I don't really care what they're, you know exactly what they know or what they've done. It's like can you solve this problem? Just you know, almost like if you just did a business school case and put it in front of them and said solve it. Chris: Well, I'm curious because I've been reading a lot about this lately and we have some internal debate about it in our recruiting process. Summer: Do you do any kind of role play as part of your process to put them in the position or challenge them to see how they problem solve. You know, we don't do it formally and I think maybe we also thought about doing it formally like a formal case. We do it in an informal way, which is here's a situation that we're in Usually, it's a real, it's a real client situation and we say hey, what do you think about this? And let them, you know, talk it through. Right so we do it as part of our interview process, but we certainly don't have it formalized and I think maybe we should. Chris: I feel like there's a lot of value in it. I've heard people a lot smarter than me talk on it, and you know the question is and it is the question of does that scare a candidate away? And my answer that is well, if it does, and maybe we learned something early on we should have won't find out till a year later. Absolutely. I'm kind of at a mindset. It seems like a good idea. Summer: I think it's great. I would agree wholeheartedly. If somebody's scared of any kind of testing, then that's probably not a good. It's probably not a good choice. Chris: It was not going to be the person that says let me prove to you I can do this, I'll figure this out, right. So just interesting. You know people's mindsets on that so that always leads me, maybe, into the culture of Craig Group. How would you describe it and what are some of the things that you believe you're doing that help foster and allow it to grow? Summer: yeah, yeah, I'd say that our culture again, we you know excellence in our work is really the number one pillar. We have a thing on our on our mission also. This is no bs. What we mean by that is we show up authentically. We're real, we're real people, we're real humans. We have, you know, everybody that I work with either is caretaking for somebody else in their family, whether it be aging parents, children. They're passionate about volunteering and they're doing that. So we are whole humans and whole people and so I believe in like I don't want to if somebody shows up in an inauthentic way, it's like I'm fine, everything's fine, and I have no tolerance. So we have this real culture of authenticity, excellence, absolute excellence in client delivery. So everybody shows up with that. It's our culture, because we talk about it in hiring, we talk about it in our all-hands monthly meetings, we talk about it in the way we behave, which is we meet people where they are today. So it's okay in Craig group to be very authentically who you are. So that's just how I am, that's how I run the company, so, so we have an authentic culture. But what that also means is everyone at the company we're on, we're remote. We do have a lot of people in Houston, but we are remote. But that does require people to communicate with each other, which is are you okay, all right, picking up the phone and saying because you, if we're all going to have no bs and we're going to work hard, you have to know what your team how, what is your team okay? Chris: what's going on in their life? Summer: yeah, might impact their ability to deliver excellence 100, which is like tell me, do you need help? Chris: my follow-up question was going to be you sounded like a remote company. So, yeah, creating the, the connectivity of that culture, especially at that level that you're trying to achieve, has got to be challenging because you're not in person. Summer: It's so hard, it's so hard and again, I think it's. You know, we have a cameras on culture, you know, and everyone's cameras are on. I mean, I spend, we are all on. You know, video calls all day. Which pros and cons. Chris: Right. Summer: But I think that everyone's leaned into that. There know we can't be grumpy about that. We're not, you know, and everyone's also required to do really good work. But part from a training standpoint, and I think we're getting better at this, I think we can keep getting better. We're not perfect, but working asynchronously, which is what remote work is Right. Not everybody knows how to do that. Like you can't assume that everybody just knows how to work asynchronously. It's a skill set. Knowing when to do async work versus when do you need to have an in-person meeting, knowing when those workflows that is not something that I think you can just know. Chris: Sure. Summer: And so we definitely have an expectation that everyone works really efficiently asynchronously, and I love asynchronous work. Personally, I think it's way more efficient than getting in a big meeting full of people all at the same time and wasting everybody's time. But there is also this time to get everybody in the meeting and you know, sit together. But we are doing better at training people about asynchronous expectations. So we use you know, very technology heavy, very tool heavy. So we use a tool. There's a tool called Loom. It's a video tool. Basically, you can explain something really quickly on your own time and then send it to people so then they can go figure out what you're trying to explain to them. even if you couldn't meet in person. We use project management software. Basecamp is the one we use. Other people use Asana, so we use Basecamp, and all of our work is asynchronously matched. And so I think that culture though one thing that does it, we move really fast. So the culture is again with the excellence and you can move fast with async work. Sometimes it slows you down, sure, because you need to just pick up the phone Instead of you know, so you can. And that's a lot of times where I get into things Is, hey, let's stop doing this Call like call each other, you know somebody's not understanding, right, but our culture is really, we move really fast. Our clients have extremely, extremely high expectations. I mean our clients are you know? PE firms. They're, you know, there's no tolerance. Chris: And they're worried about the ROI and they want the growth yesterday. Yes. Summer: Yesterday and they, you know. So we work under that pressure with all of our clients high intensity, high growth. So we're high intensity, high. You know that we match our clients. We're yeah, that's what, that's who we are, and I think it works really well with a remote team. I think we've been able to hire people that want that, that high intensity work. If you don't want it, you can tell and it doesn't work with that. Chris: It shows up real quick, it shows up. Yeah, so you were talking about, you know, your base clients, the PE firms. Let's talk about what are some of the things you found to be successful for you and your company to kind of build and maintain those relationships so that you keep them and you get more. Summer: Yeah, absolutely so. I think it's challenging to, I think, sell anything which we're selling a service, right, but I think it's challenging to sell into. I don't want to put them all in the same basket. So not all PE or independent sponsors are sponsored, because they're not all created equal, right, so that's. I can say that but it is a tight group of people. It's a it's tight knit. It's a small group. I think it's an it's elite. Most people that have those roles are very well educated. They have great experience. I think you really have to be trustworthy, like they are not going to pull in a partner that has not been vetted. You know that, had that, that hasn't really been like. You know this is the real deal. So those relationships are really hard-earned. You know those are not easy to come by. I will say me and Libby both have our own sets of networks. That was enabled, sort of the catalyst. But the only reason why that's been able, we've had success, is because we've had to prove it. And when we prove it, you know, we then can build onto the next one and the next one. And I mean our model would be that we become a partner with the firm and that they bring us in on multiple portfolio companies and that's what happens, right. But it's hard. It's not something that you don't. You know we're not selling. You know something that's not high value, high stakes, and we really are a partner. We're not a, you know, a vendor and that takes a lot of trust. We have to spend a lot of time. Chris: Yeah, it's funny because I can totally relate. Our mindset here at the firm is the same. We want to be as we say this all the time the legal partner to our clients, an extension of the C-suite, not a vendor, not a commodity, but an actual value-added partner. Summer: Yes, that's exactly right. And it's hard to get there. You don't just say that and you know you're like oh, I want to be your growth partner. I want to be a member of your management team. It's like OK, prove it. Chris: Right. Summer: Right, and so I think that we do that. I think our team consistently delivers best in class results and best in class work. We're also right sized for the lower middle market and middle market, and I think that's what needs to happen. We can't you know it's not Bain, right? No, and they can't, they couldn't, they can't do it anyways Right, but we're also not, you know, your sister's brother that's going to help you with sales and marketing. That you know out of their garage. So I think we're right size and for our size, like for where we are in the market, I think we're an absolute best in class option and we've had to prove it and prove it and that's also why we have best in class talent, because we've proven it and proven it. But it's definitely been. You know it's a hard fought. It's hard fought. Chris: You know every single win is a hard you're only as good as the last one, that's right. Summer: I mean it's dig and ditches hard. You know, it's like we have to say. I mean we're making sure that every time we deliver the work product, the trust and then also the ability to immediately implement our plan, and that's one of we really stake our hats on that, like we don't just give you a here's some really great ideas that you can't implement, nor do you have the money to go hire the team to do it. So we really just hang our hat on, let's roll, let's go, and it's like ready to go, and so that's hard, it's hard work. You know this is tough and so that's exactly right We've got. You know we need that to be so good that the firm, the CEO of the port co and the firm are going to say man, that was really worth it. What would we do without that team? How would we, where would we be right now without that team? Chris: Where else can we use them? Summer: And that's what they. You know it's like we can't. We have to. You know, we have to keep. I think we can always get better. Chris: The results would suggest that. But to your point, the last word you just said right was if you don't have the mindset of continuing to, how can we improve? You're going to get left behind. Summer: That's right, and I think, a lot of my core team. You know one of my senior strategists, Macy Allen. I think every time she works on something, she comes up with another innovative idea about. You know what, if we would have done this or wait this tool, can we try out this tool? We're really leaned into that technology and AI in our work, but I think that what works so well is the answer is yes. Bring it in, let's try it, let's test it no-transcript and just your leadership style. Chris: How would you describe that and how do you think it's evolved since you started this five years ago? Summer: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it definitely has evolved, you know, I think that also going from having you know two people to this very large team. We're very flat organization so we don't have lots of hierarchy. So most people directly report to me probably too many, which is something we're working on. But I think I've got a very straightforward management style so there's really not a lot of dancing around things. There's not a lot of confusion. If I'm telling you something, it's probably going to be very clear. I also give feedback continuously. I believe in spot feedback so we don't wait and write it down and wait for the quarter end to go back and like report. I think that's just tiresome. So everyone is encouraged to give spot feedback both you know, positive and negative and do it in that moment. Sometimes I will do it in our project management tool and say spot feedback and just put it. And that way if it's written. Sometimes they can have some time to react. Chris: Right. Summer: As opposed to kind of. Chris: I like how you signpost it though. Yeah, I say spot feedback. Summer: Like prepare thyself. You are getting feedback. Yeah, and I put it and I just say it, and I think that I lead with kindness, always, always. I think that truth without kindness is cruelty and that's a direct quote from my husband, jason Craig, one of his themes and I think that being kind to people, even when you're frustrated and is, is the only way to be. So lead with kindness, but also tell the truth, which is this you know this went well, this didn't go well, you know, but it's not. It's not about you as a human. You know this isn't a. You know we're not making a personal judgment about you, but this work product, you know, wasn't what it needed to be or whatever it is. But I tend to give feedback. You know, again, it's rapid, it's in this, it's like I lead. You know, very, you know, crisply in the moment I've had to get even more efficient with that, with a lot of people you know, and I don't see all the things, and so I definitely try to speak to every a lot of people to get you know other people's opinions on work product. So I talked to a lot of people. I talked to clients ask for feedback and then go and manage my employees. That are what I heard from clients. So yeah, I think I'm a management style again. I think I get a lot of feedback, a lot information, but crisp, kind, but really Christmas and some compassion right, always, always. Chris: So that's something you mentioned. I don't think a lot of people think to do or they think to. They think about it but they're scared to do it, and that's get feedback from your clients. Summer: Yeah. Chris: Right, it's the most valuable feedback you can get because you're really trying to serve the clients. But if you're not delivering what they want in the way they want it, you're missing the mark. Right, you can work hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent, hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent. So anything you do this kind of systemize that, or is that just you know periodic check-ins with your clients, or I don't like that. Summer: You know people will disagree with me on that and there's a whole theory in marketing around, you know, net promoter scores, which is it's just a survey, essentially that we're just not big enough for that. Like I need to be able to call all my CEOs which I do and can, and I get feedback and write it down. I mean, you know, and I talked to all of my CEOs at least every other week and I asked them all every time, you know, and sometimes they would say I don't even know, go talk to the other team and I do which is great, because if the CEO doesn't know if if anything's good or bad, that's great. Chris: That means there's no problem excellent. Summer: But no, I do it continuously. I see that as really one of my roles in sort of steering the ship is talking and saying you know what's, you know and I want everything. I want silly stuff, little bitty, you know things. I got some of that last week. It was a really super small thing, but that you know it matters. That's right. You know I don't, you know I want all the things. So I just try to have a relationship that's very trustworthy. It's informal in the sense that we can talk. I want that kind of relationship. I don't need it to be something that's this big thing. Chris: You don't need an email saying click the button and fail the survey. Summer: I really hate it. I really do I mean again somebody's going to quote me on that in a few years when we do that and send the email but I just no thanks, We'll ask directly? Chris: I don't. I'm not in favor of them either, and I don't know that you get the most authentic feedback. Yeah, right now, at some point, if you're so big, maybe you don't have a choice. Summer: But yeah never lose the personal yeah, that's right, that's right. Chris: Summer, this has been such a fun conversation. I want to just end on a few lighter notes. Okay, what was your first job growing up? Summer: oh, lifeguard, life lifeguard. Out at pecan grove, country club, out in richmond texas, which might have been my most favorite job I've ever had. I still like love it taught because you had to wear. Chris: You got to wear a bathing suit. You were the most tan you ever did. I was the most tan. Summer: I also love to swim. I love teaching swim lessons and I was a swimmer, and it was just it was great very good. Native texan native texan born in odessa, texas. Yeah, native native Texan Lived in Oklahoma, lived in Illinois, but I'm back in Texas. Chris: Okay, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Summer: Tex-Mex, all right yeah. Chris: I usually ask people this question, but you have three young kids so I don't know. But if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where'd you go and what'd you do? Summer: Yeah, my husband and I, even though we live in the flattest part of Texas I think that's under sea level we really love to mountain climb. So we're hikers and climbers. We try to take a pretty big trip every year or so if we can. We did a really big trip this summer. It would be a no-brainer. I mean we would go and climb a really big mountain. Aconcagua in South America has been on his list. I can't quite get it on mine because it's a 30-day trip and I can't. I've got a 11-year-old, a nine-year-old and a five-year-old and I can't quite do that. But if I could wave a magic wand and I could be gone for 30 days, I would go climb Aconcagua and spend time in South America. Chris: How cool. That's a good one. Well, thanks again for taking the time. Love your story. Congratulations on the success that you've already achieved and that I know that's in your future. Summer: Thanks, Chris, appreciate having me on. Special Guest: Summer Craig.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I discuss John Marvin's transformative leadership journey as CEO and President of Texas State Optical (TSO). Founded in 1936 by the Rogers brothers, TSO evolved into a franchise operation spearheaded by John starting in the 1990s. Hear John's compelling account of reviving the brand, establishing the franchise association, and guiding the innovative physician-owned business model that has empowered young optometrists for decades. With the evolving eyewear landscape, our conversation analyzes consumer behavior shifts and their implications for strategic competition amid growing online retailers. We also explore the importance of supporting TSO's physician member network through mentorship and partnerships, especially given industry consolidation challenges. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS John D Marvin shares the history of Texas State Optical (TSO), founded by the Rogers brothers in 1936, and its growth into a franchise operation. We discuss how John Marvin revitalized TSO in the 1990s and his journey to becoming the president of the company in 2001. The episode explores the challenges and strategies involved in competing with online retailers in the eyewear industry, emphasizing the importance of convenience and well-stocked dispensaries. John describes the shift in optometry ownership trends, with fewer young optometrists interested in private practice, paralleling broader healthcare industry trends. We examine the strategic importance of building a physician member network to support optometrists and the criteria for network inclusion. The episode delves into leadership principles inspired by John C. Maxwell, highlighting the role of influence, trust, and accountability in effective leadership. John reflects on the transformative impact of setbacks, such as being fired, and how these experiences shape one's leadership journey. We explore the importance of forming strategic vendor partnerships and the role of mutual accountability in maintaining long-lasting business relationships. John emphasizes the need to adapt to industry shifts, including the rise of artificial intelligence, while fostering an innovative mindset among optometrists. The episode concludes with a discussion on the significance of understanding and meeting customer needs through effective consumer research, as a universal business strategy. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Texas State Optical GUESTS John D MarvinAbout John TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet John Marvin, ceo and President of Texas State Optical. John shares his views on how the fundamentals of leadership boil down to influencing and how having mutual accountability in your business relationships create win situations. John, I want to thank you for taking the time to join me today. It's really been a pleasure to get to know you before we got started here. John: Well, Chris, I appreciate the opportunity to sit down. I always love talking about business. Chris: Well, that's good, that's what we're going to do. So you're the CEO and president of Texas State Optical, or most people know it as TSO. That's right. Tell us a little more detail about what is the company, what does it do and what is it really known for in the market. John: Okay Well, texas State Optical was founded in 1936 by four brothers the Rogers brothers, in Beaumont, texas, and anybody who's been to Beaumont or familiar with Beaumont knows of the impact those four brothers had on that community and then in turn throughout Texas. Two of the brothers were optometrists and they opened pretty traditional optometry practice. And if you'll think about what else was going on in 1936 in Beaumont, it was the oil boom that was just blowing up, and so the one that originally came to Texas from Chicago all four of them were from Chicago called back home and said boys, you need to move down here. We got a big opportunity and they did, and consequently, over the next several years they built a large retail optical chain they called Texas State Optical, and one time in the early 60s it had reached over 300 locations. And one time in the early 60s it had reached over 300 locations and those were in New Mexico, oklahoma, arkansas, louisiana and Texas, and so that went on until, due to some legal issues with the state optometric group, who decided that they didn't want someone in the state running 300 locations, they passed some legislation that limited optometrists to only three locations and so they could subsequently, after a long legal battle had to sell off most of their property, but they kept the core of the business of the optical lab. They kept that and kind of a condition of buying. The practice was that you obligated yourself to continue to purchase items from them. But then in the late 60s the Rogers, having gone through this process of dissolving their ownership in it, decided to turn their attention towards real estate development and at one point they owned 25% of Caesars Palace in Vegas. They just got involved in other things and then consequently in the early 70s they sold the company to a large pharmaceutical company, gd Searle, who then subsequently sold the company in the early 80s to Pearl Vision. Most people are familiar with Pearl Vision, most people are familiar with ProVision and ran that until the late 80s when they sold it to a group of kind of investors who wanted to own it. They didn't really know how to run it than investors. So in I got involved in 1993 doing consumer research for the corporate office. My background at the time I had a company marketing management group and based here in Houston and it was a small marketing management and consumer research group and was doing work in other areas. But picked them up as a client and began to do a lot of consumer study for them and learned about the business. At that time it was somewhat distressed because of the leadership that had taken over from the Pearl Vision taken over from Pearl, and so there was a lot of unrest among the franchisees because at that time TSO was a franchise operation and so I helped them form a franchise association and then kind of on a part-time arrangement took on an executive director position within that while maintaining my consumer study and research stuff. And so that happened until the late nineties, when everyone was planning for the great millennium you know, the 2000 and Y2, right, right. And so we gathered everybody in my conference room over here and how, booty building, and down here in the galleria and they started you know, flip chart sheets, what do we want to accomplish? And blah, blah, blah, and and that the result of that was really, guys, you're not going to get any of this done unless you own it. And so we began to have some discussions about them buying the company, the, the franchisor, and that took about a year to negotiate, and during that process I was asked to come on as the new president and since and then we closed in June of 2001, and since that time I've been the acting and operational by president and CEO of the company, and one of the reasons that it appealed to me was it was the ultimate fixer-upper, because the company had really was kind of loosely held together but had an iconic brand, and so we started opening new locations with Young Optometrist and we're a brand license company. So we knew that the only way we could pick up a new customer, if you would be, if a young OD wanted to open their own practice and then we could help them do that. People that were established at the time and successful weren't interested in converting to a retail trade name, so we did. We opened up about 80 new locations and helped a lot of young ODs live a dream and had put together a whole turnkey system commercial realty contractors the whole nine yards. Chris: That's a fascinating history, you know, to kind of just see it grow so big in the beginning, get broken down and then almost come back together. Yeah with, I guess in 2001 you said, with these individual practice owners or franchisees becoming owners. John: That's, you know, kind of unique, especially for doctors yeah, it was a different approach to it, one of the reasons we can set it as a now. We never incorporated it as a cooperative, we incorporated it as for-profit. We simply chose to run it as a cooperative, which, by its nature of co-op, isn't intended to make money, right? So we could keep the services and the value of what we offer members very high because we priced it at a break-even point, and so it was very appealing to a lot of young ODs who needed that help without any experience knowing what to do. And, of course, we then had a retail trade name that had market appeal. So a lot of them benefited greatly by, as opposed, to, opening up under their own name and unknown in a community. Chris: Yeah, it gives it instant credibility with the brand name right. That's right. What are some of the things I guess that you know since that time in 2001, that you do and your team around you, to kind of help preserve that brand value, to make it marketable and enticing to these doctors. John: Well, part of it is the importance. An optometry practice as a small business has a very defined marketplace of about three radium miles Okay, so one. That's part of that is because there are so many options and the profession is a licensed profession and so there's a little bit of perception by consumers that it's a commodity. In other words, anybody who's got a license will be able to give you a good exam. Consumers at one time back in the 60s and 70s, thought mostly of wherever they got their exams. That's where they purchased their eyewear. Chris: Out of convenience, right Out of convenience. John: That's right. And in the 80s you had a much more proliferation of retail optical chains like LensCrafters and EyeMasters at the time and Pearl Vision, which were creating an awareness among consumers that you know what, I can get my exam in one location and I can buy my eyewear in another location, and so that added to that sense of commodity. And so what we've done is focus on a three mile marketplace. So instead of running one advertising campaign in Houston, we run 50 around each of our locations, and those are largely driven through community involvement, pay-per-click, you know, today pay-per-click In the beginning though, a lot of it was just getting to know your school nurse, getting to know the coaches in the league ball game, and so from a marketing strategy it was always hyper-local standpoint. And so if you go into some neighborhoods, everyone knows the TSO. If you go into an neighborhood where we have no location, maybe not so much, and that was done probably more just from a practical standpoint of cost than it was anything else, because you know Houston and Dallas. Where we're at in San Antonio, they're very expensive media markets and so if you've only got, you know, 20 locations in the DFW market to go in and try to buy television, advertising or something more traditional is prohibited, and so it makes a lot more sense because that's where people live and work. People ask me sometimes how do you go about picking your locations, your real estate stuff? And I said we tend to let Kroger and HEB do that for us. So, wherever they're at, we want to be close because that's a neighborhood. Chris: That's right. You figured they thought there were enough households to support a grocery store. So I like that, you know, uh, you know. There's a lesson there, though, for a business owner, an entrepreneur, in that you don't necessarily have to do all your own organic research if you don't know, aware what's going on, you can, you know, let someone else do some of that and just make sure that their end users look like yours, and that's right. John: They do a tremendous job, both of those companies, at understanding the market before they ever buy land or pour concrete. I'd hate to insult them by not taking advantage of all that good work they do. Chris: They're genius right, they're genius, that's right. You just mentioned, you said 30 different or 50 different marketing campaigns in Houston alone. I mean, how do you go about figuring out you know the right message for the right place? That must take a lot of work. John: Well, not so much I mean because the message in Sugar Land is the same as the message in the Woodlands. I mean people. While we, as as in our profession, try to complicate this, it's pretty simple from a consumer standpoint. They're looking for a place where they can get their eyes checked and buy a pair of glasses. But probably two-thirds of all of our revenue today come from a third-party payer. So that changes kind of the basic consumer behavior dynamic. But by putting out a message that really is focused on that group of people in terms of maximizing the value of those coverage benefits, that becomes real consistent and then it's a matter of just being louder than anybody else. Chris: Sure, while we're on the subject of that consumer and consumer behavior, what are some of the things that you have done over the last 10, 15 years to either combat the online competition, as you mentioned, because people get their eyes examined and they either go online or do something. How are you managing that and what are some of the strategies you found to be successful? John: Well, first of all, consumers are driven, and I think this may be generally true, but certainly our consumers are driven with the priority on convenience, and one of the reasons the online marketing purchase of eyewear is so appealing is its convenience, and oftentimes it's not a price issue as much as it is a convenience issue and assortment and selection. So one of the things that we focus on is to make sure that our retail dispensary that's what we call the retail store aspect of a practice is well inventoried with product and assortment price points, and then the ultimate differentiation is customer service and knowledgeable people, and so if you have selection pricing and knowledgeable people, it's a home run and you don't have to worry about it, because if you can make it convenient for them, then they're not tempted to go online. And because there's a lot of I don't know if you've ever bought a pair of shoes online, but all you need to do is have one bad experience with that and have to turn around, send them back and so forth and so on that people would really prefer to get it locally, where I got my, where they received their exam, and it's kind of hours to lose. So we try to make sure we don't give them a reason to leave. Chris: Yeah Well, it's an interesting analogy with the shoes, because I can relate to that and see that people like to try on shoes but also glasses right. John: What are these going to look? Chris: like, and if you're at a store with a good selection, it's all right there as opposed to ordering one or two online and knowing you're going to be returning something. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at BoyerMillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. That's right, yes, well, that's it. So let's shift now kind of to this physician member network. What do you look for, if anything, as far as qualifying people to come into the brand, and then how do you help, kind of manage and support once they're in the network, if you will, to make sure that you're doing all you can to help them be successful? John: It's an interesting change we're seeing right now, especially in the last five to 10 years, and that is, the number of young optometrists who have an interest in owning their own practice is going away. Chris: It's really an interesting thing. John: One. It's very similar to what's going on in healthcare in general. You know, I was just talking to some people last week and I said you know when was the last time I asked them? I said do you have children? Yes, do you have a pediatrician? Yes, is that pediatrician private practice? Chris: No. John: It's owned by some big organization like Texas Children's, and what you're seeing in healthcare delivery at the provider level is a consolidation of these organizations and the disappearing of private practice, and we're seeing that now in optometry. And another big dynamic is 85% of all optometry graduates today are female, and in the 80s that number was just the opposite. It was very unusual in the 80s and early 90s to see women in optometry school. I mean they certainly didn't represent the majority. And so with that comes different priorities of practice. You know you don't have the hard-charging young guy who wants to go into small-town Texas and really build up a big practice or even a metro area. You have people that are much more interested in part-time, that I want to be able to step aside, raise my family, then maybe come back later, and so there's a whole different culture among the providers now coming in. So our organization as a business model relies on young optometrists wanting to own their own practice, and if that category is declining we've got to come up with some other plan here to maintain Sure. So one the opportunities we have are less. The vetting process is largely a discussion with very successful people. Our board of directors consists of nine doctors and three outside directors, but the nine doctors are all very successful. And so a young person does approach me and we talk, I want them to speak to one of our successful guys, and then their job is to kind of assess and come back to me and say, John, I don't know if she's ready, I don't know if he can do this, or I think this is a home run, let's go. And with their input and my discussion I've been doing it now long enough that I kind of get a feel for it Then we'll say let's go. And really it's a matter of they own everything. It's a matter of us guiding them through the process and then supporting them with just the knowledge they don't have about building a practice afterwards, and then lots of follow-up and hand-holding. Chris: And it's done. I think you said just as, basically a license agreement where they're licensing the name and brand and they get some support as a result of that as well. John: I mean contractually, I'm not obligated to support anything. Contractually I'm not obligated to support anything. All I'm obligated to do is to keep the value of the brand consistent with what they're paying for it. But I realized that if they're not successful, my brand value suffers. So we do all that we can to support them and help them be successful. Chris: So let's talk a little bit about your internal team. I mean, you've got a team I think you said 12, that's kind of help support you, that support these members. What have you found to be successful as you've gone through maybe trials and tribulations of hiring the right people, making sure you've got the right people in the right seat to kind of support the business and the brand? John: You know, that's a great question, because I, up until about 2015, I took a whole different approach to personnel than I did 2015 and on, and it was like I learned something, and that is I put together a group of really knowledgeable people in terms of their expertise in certain areas, but the quality that I had not paid attention to prior to that was they also had to be connectors. They had to be the kind of people that could say hey, chris, I know somebody you ought to talk to. And so because when a non-doctor walks into a doctor's office, even with the responsibility of helping, they carry a different level of credibility with that doctor than if a doctor told them something. If we go in and say, hey, listen, you need to be open Saturdays, because there's a lot of business on Saturdays, I don't want to do it. But if a doctor tells them, oh man, you got to be open Saturday, they'll listen to it. But if a doctor tells them, oh man, you've got to be open Saturday, they'll listen to it. And so our guys who are in the field, they do tactical training and support for staff, but when a doctor is facing an issue that they know the answer to, they in turn, seek out other leadership in the doctor community to say would you mind giving so-and-so a call Because I think you could help them get through whatever issue they're dealing with. And so that quality and frankly it's, you know it requires someone who doesn't have much of an ego. Sure, because you know I say this all the time like my old friend Ronald Reagan used to say, there's no limit to what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit. Chris: Yeah. John: And so we take that approach, and ours isn't about trying to get a bunch of credit. Ours is about trying to lift up this organization and get these guys successful, and if we're simply a facilitator in information to how to do that, we don't have to be the initial provider of that information. Even if we know it, it comes much better from a colleague, and so that's one of the things that we put a lot of emphasis on is helping the network, help each other. Chris: So you know you were very quick to say 2015. Have you seen a dramatic improvement in the performance of the overall business since making that change and kind of focusing on the connector quality as being an additional important quality in the people you bring on? John: Very much so, because what Texas State Optical was in the beginning was a doctor-owned organization and doctors working with other doctors to help them grow a network and large business. We're trying to replicate that from the standpoint of, especially as the business, the structure we use I mentioned earlier as a cooperative. It requires doctor leadership to be active and engaged in running their own company, their owners of the company, and so, while I have certainly an important role in that, the more doctors that engage in the leadership of the organization, the better it is overall. And since we took that intentional effort in 2015, a couple of things too. We had a kind of an evolution of membership. I mean, we had a lot of our older doctors retire and sell practices, and then we had a whole influx of young doctors, and so we ended up in 2015 with an organization that was significantly different demographically, both age and gender. That was significantly different demographically, both age and gender. But we thought they need mentorship among the leadership in the organization, and so we worked at creating that for them, and it impacts not just clinical I mean, there's also that aspect of it they're learning clinically from friends but operationally, and so it made a big difference Very good. Chris: I know that you have supply agreements with certain labs and other things. Let's talk about some of the things that you found to be successful in maintaining, I guess, forming those kind of key strategic relationships for the business, and maybe some of the things you do to make sure that you foster and keep them strong of the things you do to make sure that you foster and keep them strong. John: Well, in the vendor-doctor community there is a kind of an assumption made by both sides, and one is the doctor assumes that the vendor's got more money than they know how to spend or what they've got all this money to spend, and the vendor assumes the doctor's not going to follow through on all the promises they make. So that's kind of where we start at the table, and so I think it's important and what we've worked at bringing to our relationships is mutual accountability, and we have found our vendor partners to be extremely invested in our success, but at the same time they've got a business to run as well, and so our success with them and that dynamic of that exchange or relationship cannot be at the vendor's expense. It's gotta be the classic cliche win type of thing, but you only get win if you have mutual accountability. And so in every agreement we have, here's what the vendor commits to and here's what the doctor community commits to. And then we have business reviews where we sit down and say here's where we're dropping the ball or here's where you're dropping the ball, and we hold that accountability does a long goes a long way to not only making the relationship productive but also building trust and longevity into those partnerships, because if you're making money with a partner, you don't want it to stop, right, you know? And that goes both ways If you're a doctor making money with a partner, you don't want it to stop, and if money with a partner, you don't want it to stop, and if you're a partner, you don't want to stop. So I found that type of mutual accountability and the willingness to be held accountable is critical to those relationships Very good. Chris: So you know. Talk a little bit about leadership. You've been running this organization for a long time now. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that's evolved over time? John: well, I would. I don't know if I've ever been asked to describe it, but I would say it's Maxwellian. Okay, and that means John C Maxwell, who is an author, has written a number of books on leadership and, in my opinion, probably is the most the best leadership author. I'm biased, of course, but I think he is. Forbes Magazine said that a few years ago, but basically his definition of leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just influence. And an example of that is if you walk into a room of people, you're naturally going to notice someone who's exercising influence on others, and it isn't an authoritarian way, it's in a trust and credibility way. And so if you're influencing, you're leading. If you're not, it doesn no matter what title you have. So an example is my when I explained how we use doctors to help influence other doctors. So that's a level of influence that doesn't come because I require somebody to do something. It it occurs because you're able to influence others to to make a difference. So I would. I'm a big believer in that. I'll plug his book. There are 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. It's a classic, and so that's like a Bible. It's my business Bible in terms of leadership style. Chris: I was going to use that word because others and it's fair to plug books, because sometimes I ask people what's a book you would recommend. We hear a lot of good to great from people Sure, jim Collins. But what I love what you said if you're influencing, you're leading, because I say a lot of times a true leader leads without a title. John: Right, you're actually doing things without the title to demonstrate leadership, which is what you're talking about Exactly, and if you do have the title and can influence, it's a home run. It's a home run, yeah. Chris: So you've learned that through lots of trials and tribulations. I think we all learn through mistakes or setbacks Anything you could share with the listeners about a decision made that didn't go the way you thought but you learned from it and that learning kind of catapulted you made you better because of it. Setback, failure whatever word you want to describe Anything you could you care to share in that realm. John: Sure the. So I came to Houston. I was born and raised in Western Kansas and I was in Wichita born and raised in western Kansas, and I was in Wichita, kansas, in 1989, excuse me, in the late 80s, 84, 89 era and I was working for a large ophthalmology practice up there as a marketing administrator and in that role I attended a lot of national meetings in ophthalmology and during that meeting I met an owner of a large Houston ophthalmology and during that meeting I met an owner of a large Houston ophthalmology group who ended up offering me a job and I came to Texas. Due to some marketing challenges we were facing at that practice, I was introduced to Texas State Optical while I was at that practice and then left after about four years, left that practice and went to a consumer research firm here in Stafford and quickly turned around and went to Texas State Optical to see if they would like to buy some insurance I'm not insurance, buy some research and they did so. I ended up doing this large project for them but also ended up doing a ton of work for HLMP. During the time they were prepared to try to go to battle with Enron and this was like early nineties, right, and so everything was going well. And then I get fired from the research thing. Now I moved my family down from Kansas. I've been in the state about five and a half years and I get fired. I've been in the state about five and a half years and I get fired. And that was a big you know. Anytime you've been fired, that kind of devastates you Right, it shakes you up. Chris: Yeah, it does. John: But had that not happened, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing Right, and so I have learned, and what pulled me through that is faith, Faith in God and faith in myself is faith, faith in God and faith in myself, and I felt like I can do, kind of what. There was a part of it, chris, that was liberating, because that was like, instead of thinking now what am I going to do, I was thinking now what am I going to do. I mean, it was a whole different frame of attitude and that subsequently ended up leading to the position I have today, through working with franchisees at Texas State Optical and so forth. Chris: That's a great story. Thank you for sharing. You bet A lot of people don't want to talk about, especially if they've been fired for something. But to your point on that, these other opportunities would have never presented themselves right, because you likely stayed in the comfort of the job and seeing where that takes you. You know there's so much that can come. John: Actually, I'd gone to that research firm. The owner of it had brought me there with the promise implied I mean not implied, but it wasn't in writing but the idea was that I would take over that firm at some point and it turned out that didn't work out Well you know a lot of what you, I think, describe. Chris: The undertone to that is the mindset you had in the wake of that setback. You know you didn't let it take you down. You're like like you said what am I going to go? Do I got all these opportunities and go? Explore and figure it out. John: So I had about 30 days before the next house payment came, so that you were acting quick, got to be decisive man. Chris: You can't be stewing on decisions forever, for sure, well, that and so you know that leadership, you know is forged and helped you get to where you are today. You know, when you, when you think about applying that mindset and that leadership kind of style, how does it help you kind of navigate the ups and downs of the economic cycles that we've experienced over the last 20 plus years? John: Well, you know, first of all is to understand which of these cycles are cyclical. That's a little redundant, but I mean, what is it we're going through that's cyclical. That you can. You know, business loves a stable and predictable environment. Right Now, the reality is it's ups and downs. But if it's ups and downs within a certain range of up and down, it's stable right, and you can prepare for it Certain tolerances right, yeah certain tolerances. What we've seen, not only in the economy and that's a whole different issue but what we've seen in the profession itself and the consolidation of private practice by private equity that's come into the marketplace, is we're seeing disruption like we haven't seen before. And I was talking to one of our board members doctor board members about it and we were just, you know, he was pointing out all of the things that are kind of out without from under excuse me, out of our control, and as we were talking about it, I had this thought and I told him. I said it's a great time to be alive and that because we're the ones that get to go through this, and in many ways I believe that our profession is going through a transformation that will take probably a 20 year period of time. But 40 years from now, optometry, I don't think, will look anything like it does today, and it's always bumpy to be in the middle of that turbulent transformation. The 80s were very steady, the 90s were pretty steady. It was in starting about 2010, 2000, that things started rapidly changing and then the acceleration with just technology and everything else is just gone, and then you've got now the whole world of artificial intelligence coming into play and it's. I consider it exciting, invigorating, challenging, but I mean what's? The alternative is to be bored right. Chris: Well, if you don't adopt and if you're not using it, you die use it you die, that's right. So I mean, you know, kind of it's a great segue to what are some of the things you do to kind of foster that maybe innovative mindset of how you're going to embrace the technological changes and use them in the business model to further the brand and the business. John: So I there's very little I can do without the support of the doctor, owner, community right. And sometimes there's a lot of indecision, because when you're not sure what to do, you're scared of doing the wrong thing. Chris: Sure, Well, it seems like you got a lot of opinions that out there too, right? John: You got a lot of them, and so what I have to do is to influence them through other people and through information, to get them to a point of being open enough to consider ideas that they might consider kind of sacrilege in some case. For instance, what is real common in most optometry practices today is what's called an autorefractor. It's a machine that people go through and it gives you a prescription, and the prescription is used by the doctor to zero in on where your visual acuity is right. Well, when that first came out, optometrists thought that was the end of the profession. Here's a machine that'll do what I'm doing. Optometrists thought that was the end of the profession. Here's a machine that'll do what I'm doing. And so there's a fear oftentimes of innovation. Right, that you have to assure people that there's a way to use this to our benefit, and that's what we're going through with artificial intelligence right now. One group is scared to death. It's going to replace them. The other group is glad they're old enough, they're probably not going to have to go through with it. And then you're looking for those people who say, hey, how can we utilize this to really to our benefit? Yeah, and once people feel that's safe enough to kind of try. Then the people realize that the fear is misplaced. Chris: So true, right, but it takes education, information and influence, as you said, to get people to get there so that they can adopt it One of the things that I teach my team to say. John: I mean to believe, and I say it all the time is we believe in everybody's right to make a bad decision. So if someone listens to us and they choose not to do what we're recommending and we know it's a good decision what we're recommending and they choose not to, it's their right. You know, I mean everybody's right to waste their own money. So that kind of patience is necessary with a group like ours. In many ways it's like working with a volunteer organization. Chris: Yeah, well, lots of challenges there, I'm sure. Well, john, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you sharing everything I want to ask you, I guess, going back to your days, you know, I guess growing up in Kansas what was your first job? John: A drugstore Rexall drugstore and I grew up in a town of 2000 people and my dad was the family physician of the community and so of course in a town like that in western Kansas the doctor and the pharmacist are close relationship. And so I got my first job at a drugstore, working a soda fountain, delivering prescriptions, restocking things. Like that had a blast and that really I learned a lot in that, not just like everybody learns a lot from their first job, but understanding. I was intrigued by Rexall. I don't know how familiar you are with Rexall, but Rexall was a national organization that gave private ownership of drugstores the purchasing power of a large corporate chain, and so my employer was the pharmacist. He owned the drug store and he stood up in the stand in the dais every day counting pills and chatting with people. So that was my first job. Chris: Very good. Well, you've been in Texas now since what the late? John: 80s. Chris: So do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue Barbecue? Okay. John: Barbecue Very good. My waistline prefers barbecue. Chris: And last thing if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? I don't know, Probably nuts. John: I just I've got to be engaged and I mean I don't have to be. I'm not select. I love business and I love the challenge it has. So I'm not I don't. You said earlier in our discussion about you were describing about the law firm. When I was doing consumer research, I did some healthcare work 12 Oaks Hospital was a client and so but I would tell people, is I specialize in a process, not an industry, because the process is the same and I would say that's what I really love about business, because when you boil it down to what I do and what you do and others that run businesses, it's the same process. It's understanding your customer and then directing how your services or products benefit that customer and communicating and the whole marketing scheme of promotion, price, product and place applies to every industry. And so I'd probably do something if I had 30 days. Like I said, I'd go nuts. Chris: Well, but I think what you just said there in the end is you have great insight and learning for business owners and entrepreneurs out there. You're trying to find their way. It's it is figure out what the consumer that you're catering to really wants and then deliver that as efficient as best you can that's why you know my, when I first got into consumer research, I thought this is like cheating. John: I mean you're actually going out and saying what do you want? They tell you, and then you give it to them. I mean it's like, it's amazing. Chris: Yeah, right, so well, this has been great, John. Thanks again for taking the time. You bet I really appreciate your invitation. Special Guest: John D Marvin.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I learned valuable lessons from Patrick Terry, founder of the popular Austin-based restaurant chain P Terry's Burger Stand. Patrick explains how the company's success has been centered around its commitment to natural ingredients, competitive pricing, and exceptional customer and employee care. We explored the challenges of maintaining price discipline amidst rising costs and inflation, including during the COVID-19 pandemic. Patrick also shared insights from his origin story, hiring practices that bring on passionate individuals, and the importance of company culture. He also touched on the strategic considerations that underpin P Terry's expansion plans into new markets like Houston and the employee support programs in place. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed the inception of P Terry's Burger Stand in 2005 with founder Patrick Terry, focusing on their strategy of using high-quality, natural ingredients at competitive prices to differentiate from fast food giants like McDonald's and Starbucks. Patrick emphasized the importance of customer feedback and employee well-being in ensuring operational efficiency and customer satisfaction, without relying heavily on marketing or advertising. We explored the challenges of maintaining pricing discipline amidst inflation and supply chain disruptions, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, and how P Terry's managed to outperform competitors with consistent pricing strategies. Patrick shared the origin story of P Terry's, highlighting their commitment to quality food and a strategic hiring process that prioritizes employees' passion for the restaurant business. The unique approach to food preparation at P Terry's through their own commissary was discussed, showcasing how it helps maintain quality and cost control, along with their plans for expansion into Houston. We delved into the significance of company culture and employee care, including P Terry's innovative non-interest loan program for staff in financial need, as a means to foster loyalty and engagement. Patrick recounted the emotional journey of running the business, his brief hiatus from leadership in 2019, and the decision to reengage with renewed vigor, underscoring the importance of leadership in maintaining company culture. The strategic expansion from Austin to San Antonio and the considerations involved, such as logistical feasibility and location selection based on cost and accessibility, were discussed. We highlighted the balance between choosing affordable locations and ensuring they are accessible to customers, using demographic trends and growth areas to inform business decisions. Patrick shared personal anecdotes, including his early entrepreneurial ventures and the cultural philosophy at P Terry's, emphasizing the importance of setting high standards and leading by example. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About P.Terry's GUESTS Patrick TerryAbout Patrick TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Patrick Terry, founder and owner of P Terry's Burger Stand. Patrick attributes the success of P Terry's to two fundamental strategies First, work hard and listen to your customer. And second, take care of your people and they will take care of your customer. Patrick, I want to thank you for coming on Texas building Texas business and it's just a pleasure to have you on as a guest. Patrick: Well, thanks, I'm honored to be here. I really am. Chris: So I think the first place to start is for you just to tell us, those that don't know of P Terry's, what is P Terry's and kind of. What are you known for? Patrick: Well, so my wife and I started P Terry's 2005. So we'll be celebrating our 20th anniversary next month, next year, and the idea behind it we sell we're a quick service hamburger stand, and the idea behind it was if we were going to compete with, you know, the giants in the industry the McDonald's and the Burger Kings and the Jack in the Boxes and the Chick-fil-A's you know everybody. You know we're going to have to find a way to be different and you know I talk about so often. People want to get into business and they find a retail store or a restaurant or a concept that they like and they go across the street and pretty much do the same thing as the guy that they liked. And when you do that, all you've done in a best case scenario, is you take half his business. It's pretty hard to take all of his business. If you're going to do the same thing, then you're going up against the fact that he's established. Clearly he's doing okay because you liked it and he's there. And so I think that's the biggest mistake new business owners and entrepreneurs make is they like a yogurt stand and they go across the street and they do the same yogurt stand. And so, all that said we were going to be different, and where we were going to be different was that we were going to offer the quality beef and the food that we serve is really that of an upscale restaurant, to be honest and we were going to do it through a drive-thru and a dine-in at a fast food restaurant, but we weren't. Because of that, we weren't, of course, able to charge any more than the fast food guy across the street, so what we were trying to do was make ourselves bulletproof. We were going to offer a quality product that you couldn't get at a fast food restaurant at a price that was the same as the guy across the street that wasn't serving that quality food. And obviously, if you're able to pull that off, it's a huge advantage. And by doing so what we did, we established right away that we were going to look for a fair profit, and that was what it was going to be. And so if I could sell an order of French fries and I might be able to get $2.50 for that order of French fries, I looked at the cost and I'm thinking well, actually, my overall cost of goods, I only have to sell those franchise at $2.15. We have very low overhead. We have a small office with a G&A under 6% and we work hard and we work smart and we don't spend money on marketing or advertising. We don't have that luxury. We don't pay, of course, any franchise fees because we own the business. And so we were able to pull it off. And so we serve a black Angus, all natural beef, and what that means is it's antibiotic free, it's hormone free, it's a vegetarian fed, it's a pure beef. I mean it really is a great product. We serve the same thing with a hormone-free chicken. And you know, our buns don't have high fructose corn syrup. Our potatoes come from Idaho and they're fresh and they're cooked in a canola oil which doesn't have any hydrogenated oils. I mean, we literally just went down the line and said, okay, this is what we're going to do. Now we're going to have to make it work and by keeping our costs down and, frankly, working really hard, really hard with a lot of smart people, we were able to pull it off. We opened up our 34th store two weeks ago in Cibolo, outside of San Antonio, and, as you know, we're on our way to Houston. We have our first Houston location in Richmond I believe it is in October, and we're going to have five. We plan for five Houston locations. One of the other things that we do that makes this unique is that we have our own commissary. We cook we do a lot of cooking and for our restaurants ourselves, so we bake our own banana bread, we bake our own cookies from scratch, we make our own veggie burgers from scratch. We take chicken breast all chicken breast, boneless, skinless breast and we actually grind it into a patty for a chicken burger and for our chicken bites. And all that's done in the commissary by our own staff. We share the offices, share a space with the commissary, and every morning three or four trucks go out and deliver that product to the stands, and so we're able to keep our costs down by doing that as well. We pretty much just take charge of everything we do, yeah and that's what separated us. Chris: Well, it sounds like what I'm hearing is a very focused, you know thought into what you wanted this business to be and I guess what you didn't want it to be. So you know what I heard you talk about is, you know, obviously very cost conscious, so that you could be profitable, but also singular, focused on this. You know premium quality food at a lower price point and you know really it sounds like in the beginning, very focused on what profit margins would look like, what your cost of goods would be. Before you even opened a store it seems like. Patrick: Yeah, and I don't want to make it sound like we're smarter than we are, because a lot of that stuff just you know fortunately just works itself out. Now where it got tricky is when COVID hit and the supply chain issues and the inflation that we've seen and where we've benefited from that is by having always done what we've done in the last 19 years and everyone's read about. You know the McDonald's Big Mac combo meal. It's for $16 in Idaho and you know McDonald's are great operators. So I got nothing bad to say. But every time you take a price increase if you're not looking over your shoulder when you do that if you're not conscious of? am I really doing everything I can before I go up on this price? Patrick: way I can make this a nickel instead of a diamond. Unless you've done that from the start, you find yourself taking price increases to cover up mistakes or issues of the day, and it becomes this band-aid that's very hard to take off, right. Chris: We've seen that in your industry right, where the classic pass it on to the consumer, and then in the fast food wars just over the recent months, the consumers rebelling. Patrick: Absolutely, absolutely. And so when you know Starbucks and McDonald's show, you know negative comp store sales, last quarter, for the first time since you know COVID hit, we were up 8% in our compor sales. And because, frankly, when you take our strategy and you stick with it and the hard part is sticking with it it's really easy to look around and go, man, that guy over there he's getting six bucks for that burger and I'm only getting five. I could probably go up a quarter and that's the illusion, right, you get into that game and there's a mind game and if you're able to keep pushing that off and, trust me, it's a hell of a lot easier going up a quarter. When you're able to pull that off, then you don't go down that rabbit hole and find yourself in a situation where so many of our competitors have found themselves. I mean, I look around and see what similar pricing is, I mean what similar menu items are and what the pricing of our competitors are, and I'm astounded. I mean there are some of our competitors are 20 percent higher than we are on their menu, and you know we're all serving food out of a drive-thru and so it's a dangerous game. It really is. And so I think that I think you've hit on it exactly the way it is, it's a discipline and it's every day. Chris: Yeah, well, that's what Jim Collins talks about in Good to Great. You know, discipline, people with disciplined thought and disciplined action is how you get from good to great. Yeah, so let me, let me take you back, cause I mean I love the thought that went into to the concept from the beginning, but what inspired you to, in 2005, open up a hamburger stand? Patrick: Well, thank you for asking. It's almost embarrassing, I apparently. When I finally did it, a score of my friends contacted me to remind me how much I had been boring them for so many years that I had always wanted to open up a hamburger stand. And do not ask me where that came from. I have no idea, other than to say that I love the idea of serving a hamburger, french fries and a milkshake. I just, I just think that's glorious and I know that's probably way over the top, but there's something so satisfying and it's probably because it's my favorite meal that I just can't get past it. So I had always wanted to do it and I had a particular location that I had in mind and I lost it five years earlier and it sat empty for five years and finally it became available, and so that's when we opened up at Lamar and Barton Springs in Austin. Chris: I love that. Well, I mean. So, like, like any good entrepreneur, in my view, you followed your passion, your favorite meal, something that you have a passion about doing. Patrick: Let me tell you, if you don't love this business, you better not get in it, because it is consuming, it's all consuming. And so you know I look around. When I used to, you know, when I would hire somebody, I would remind them that if they didn't really love the restaurant business or what we do every day, you are not going to be happy, and if you do love it, you're going to be very happy, because we're drinking out of a fire hose here pretty much every day. Chris: Let's talk a little bit about hiring, because I think that's really regardless of the industry, really regardless of the industry. I mean, companies are made of people and you've got to get the right people to help, you know, maybe bring your vision to light, your strategies to life. What have you done over the years to make sure that you are making that right hire decision? I assume it's evolved over time and I think there's at least a couple of pieces. I'd love to maybe hear how it was starting out, but oh, yeah, it was. I know that coming out of COVID it had to be even more challenging, because people wouldn't even come to work. Patrick: Right. Well, when we first opened, the first day we opened, my wife Kathy was there and she had no restaurant experience. I had some and I put her through it. It was. You know, it was very difficult, and she likes to tell the story that she looked around the very first day and realized that there was no way we were going to do this by ourselves. And so the first three years we were in the stands every day. I mean, I worked every day, morning to night, and by doing that I got to know, obviously, everything that it took to run the stand, every position. But I also got to see the people that were there and I was able to separate the ones that were working out and the ones that weren't. And I was not a good hire at first. There is this you know, boy, it's easy to take what you think is the simple route and just put a body in place and, man, if it's the wrong body, everyone's miserable, and so it took me a while. I just had a certain, but I was not going to give in. I had a certain level of employee or stand or team member that I was, that I had envisioned, and so I wasn't going to lower the bar. And so the first three years were really difficult because a lot of people you bring in had other unfortunately had other fast food experience and they brought a lot of bad habits with them. And so you know, it's one of those deals when you hire somebody, frankly, they either have to be scared of you or they have to like you, and I'm not the guy that they're going to be scared of. That's just not the role I want to play. It's not the business I want to run. We're not always going to agree, but my hope is that we like and respect each other and respect each other. The other thing is what we learned being there every day is we learned so? Many of our employees' lives are completely different than mine. You know I've been around for a long time. I had some money in the bank. You know I had a college education, I had a career before this, so it's really easy to live in your bubble and not recognize it, and so I tell this story a lot. We had an employee, vinny and this was 18 years ago and, by the way, I'm proud to say Vinny still works for us, as do a lot of those people in those first few years. They're still with us and Vinny's truck broke down and I had worked all day and I didn't want to do his job that night, so I convinced him just to get in a cab and I would pay for the cab. And then when Vinny got there, I said what's going on with the truck? And he said well, it's going to cost $150 to get fixed and I don't have $150. So I handed him $150 and I said pay me when you can, because I need you here and I need your truck fixed Now if I'm in a corporate office, then he probably loses his job because he didn't show up. Right, right, I don't answer the phone, we don't have that conversation. So then I've lost an employee that I've had for 18 years. But, more importantly, I understand the position they're in, and so the very first thing we did from that is we created a non-interest loan program for all of our employees. So if you walk in to my office right now or you don't even have to do that you tell your manager, and the manager is going to make a phone call and you say I'm behind in my rent or I have a, you know, whatever it is, you're going to get a loan, and if it's under, if it's five hundred dollars or under, we don't even ask, we just you get it. If it's more than that, we want to know what's going on, you know. And so what we did is we made hiring easier. This is a really hard thing to do every day. The last thing I need to do is make it more difficult. So so we started by taking care of our people better than most, and they told their friends, they told their relatives, and so they understood that this is a two-way street and I'm going to take care of you, but you have to take care of me and, of course, the way you take care of me is you take care of the customer. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyMillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris: That's great. I mean the idea and I think it's true in any organization. If the people that work for you think that you genuinely care about them as a person, not just that they get the job done, you're going to create loyalty and engagement with that employee. Naturally, hearing your story leads me to the question about culture. Let's talk about that. How would you describe the culture at P Terry's? Obviously, the fundamental philosophy you just described, I would assume, is some of the foundational elements of the culture that you're trying to build or have built. So what can you share about that? Patrick: Well, I'll tell you the obvious. You and your listeners already know this culture is the most important thing. There's nothing even close to second when it comes to running your business. The culture that you establish speaks for who you are, not only to your employees, but to your customers. Speaks for who you are, not only to your employees, but to your customers. There's nothing more important. I can't even think of number two. I'll tell you an interesting story very quickly. I hope it's real. I had a person call me and want to visit with me about the business, and they had a very successful online clothing company and they were about to open up stores for the first time. Everything they had always sold was online, and he asked me what it took to open the store and take care of the employees for the very first time. Right, this is all of a sudden. It's not a click, it's a conversation, and I probably talked for 15 or 20 minutes about everything we do every day for our employees. I thought I really thought his head was going to explode. I mean, he. It was so beyond the realm for him. And I get it right. This is like, and what I was trying to explain to him was you're, you may be selling the same item, but you've got an entirely different business model now. I mean, now you have, for the very first time, you have a person representing you selling that product to someone. And boy, you better get that right. And so that's really what it boils down to is understanding what we do every day and what our people do, and the culture has to be led by me. You know, I read a great line a couple of weeks ago. Somebody said to the person running the company, what's your job? And he said my job is to be right. And so when you accept that as your job and, by the way, I don't do it by myself, oh my Lord, not even close right, I mean, I've got all. I got these people around me that are just terrific, and but I certainly go to them and we certainly talk about everything. But the first thing that this has to be established is I'm here and I answer my phone and if, if you're in the hospital, I need to be there and make sure everything's okay. If you have a family member that has an issue, if there's something I can do, I got to do it. And then you have to understand everyone has to understand that there's a bar set and no one goes below the bar, and I can never go below the bar, obviously, and so it's really for me and for P Terry's, it's really by example, and if you know, dogs and kids can spot a phony a mile away. And so if you're not sincere in what you're trying to do and what you believe in and I've had some people that work for me that I could tell immediately you know you're faking it and you know you just don't feel the same way the rest of us do, and nobody wants to be in that position. So you're not happy here and I'm not happy with you here, so let's just shake hands and walk away from each other. So there's a lot of that going on, but the culture and what we do every day, the first thing we do is we just take care of our people and then we count on them to take care of the customer. Chris: Yeah, Some of what you're saying there I've heard others speak to. We certainly have that philosophy here in the business we run in this firm and that is we say we hire and fire from culture. Right, you have to know what the culture is. You have to look for the people the best you can through interview processes and hire from culture. More importantly, when you figure out someone's, you know you set the standard and you can't go below it. But if you see someone that's consistently going below it or faking it, then you've got to move fast and they need to be out of the organization. And it doesn't have to be harsh to your point. Chris: They're not happy, no one's happy. They're going to be happier somewhere else that has a different set of standards that connect with them. But you've established your standards. You've tied behavior that you can demonstrate is consistent with that that comes from the top down, and then everyone can be on the same page. Patrick: And it has to be. It's almost like, you know, being in the middle of an orchestra. You know we're all playing the song and we've all got a part to play, and if one of us, you know, drops the violin, it's not going to feel sound the same. Yeah, so true. Chris: So you know, reading up on, you know the goings on at P Terry's. I want to kind of turn the conversation a little bit to the last maybe I guess it's been four or five years you did something that is not easy for a founder to do in 2019. You decided to step down as CEO of you know, your proverbial baby let's talk about that. Obviously not the first time an entrepreneur has done that and kind of handed reins over. What led to that decision and how was it for you to kind of transition out of the CEO role? Patrick: Well, if it's okay, I want to step back a couple more years before that and talk about something that it really doesn't make the papers very often. That, and talk about something that it really doesn't make the papers very often. We had at one point I had just kind of hit a wall. I was exhausted. I was working with a kind of a person that I had next to me that was, you know, my right hand man. It was just it was. We had been going at such a pace for so long. You know, my wife and I have funded, had funded this business all by ourselves. The entire time we borrowed money but we didn't have any other investors, so everything kind of fell on us every day and the idea came up that maybe we should sell because this is just exhausting. And we did a dog and pony show and had a half a dozen legitimate buyers and we got a wonderful offer. You know, as I said to the person when I turned him down, you offered me enough money to go live on an island and I've got two little girls. I don't get to live on an island even if I wanted to. So I appreciate the offer very much and I think what I was doing when I did it, and it was sincere, I wasn't trying to waste anybody's time. But I think after the offer came in and my wife and I both agreed that we didn't want to do that. This is not how we wanted our legacy to end. I think I was looking for validation. I had never been validated for the work I had done, other than you know that the we were allowed to expand. Our business was good, our customers were very appreciative, but from an industry standpoint, I didn't know what we had created. I really didn't. I'm not the guy that I'm terrible at networking. I don't go to. I don't go to meetings, I don't go to conventions, I just I really it's not my deal, I really just work. And so I got that validation and then I made a decision that the next decision we made was do we want to leave Central Texas? You know the Austin area, and I had never done that. And so I thought well, I got some great advice one time that I don't want to learn something that somebody else has already learned, that I don't want to learn something that somebody else has already learned, and so I chose to bring somebody in with the experience of having done that, and Todd came in. Todd Korver came in. He had a great resume, same moral compass that we have here, a really good guy. And what I was finding was that, no matter what, I'm still here, and there are certain things that I'm just comfortable with, that, if I'm going to be alive and still owning the business, that it's important to me that we do every day. And so it wasn't that Todd did a bad job. It's just that I looked around and said, you know, there's stuff going on that I think we can do a little differently. Maybe we can do it better. I don't know, because I don't have all the answers, but I think I'm more comfortable in the front seat than I am in the back. The departure was amicable, he's a good guy. He's got a great job here in Austin. He's going to do very well there. But I just found that if I'm going to be in the office every day, you know I might as well do what I really want to do, and so that led to me coming back, and so, you know, I think it also gave me a new energy that I hadn't had because Todd did some heavy lifting for four years, and so we kind of have come back with the vengeance. We got the idea four days after Christmas that maybe we should really take a serious look at serving chicken bites. We compete against everybody in the business and Chick-fil-A is, you know, the leader, and so a lot of our customers had told us hey, the only fight in our family. You know, my kid wants a chicken bite at Chick-fil-A and I want a hamburger or a chicken burger from P Terry's. And so, you know, the 29th of December we had this conversation and the 16th of March they were for sale in our stores. We made them out of our own kitchen and we created them and, you know, worked on sauces and stuff, and so we've really been going very fast at that. But that you know, and I found that I'm just much more happier if I'm going to, if I'm going to be around, if it's going to still be my company. I'm just happier being the guy that's running it. Chris: I understand. Well, it had to be difficult, especially so it sounds like you stepped out of the CEO seat but stayed, I guess, involved in the company. That had to be challenging, right, it was one thing if you kind of, like you said, go to some Island or just complete a separate business, but and I, you know, I did my best. Patrick: I didn't think it was fair to, you know, be in Todd's office every day pounding the desk, going why aren't we doing this, why can't you do this? I, you know, I let him run the company because that was the only fair thing to do, but I was in the office next door and so you know, you're right, I'm not on an island and so, yeah, at some point it just was like easier for me just to do it. Chris: So let's let's talk a little bit about the expansion. You mentioned that you had expanded beyond kind of the Austin area into kind of San Antonio. You just mentioned a store in that area your plans to come to Houston you mentioned just a minute ago, and ultimately five stores, what? I want to talk about maybe have you share, is kind of what goes into that thinking of the strategy, of when it's right to kind of take those steps which I would assume are, you know, somewhat trepidatious. Patrick: Yo, absolutely, and what we found is that we were interested to see in the challenge. Absolutely, and what we found is that we were interested to see in the challenge. And you know we really had established ourselves in central Texas. We have a lot of stores here, you know we're. I mean I have there's Lamar Boulevard in Austin. I have three stores on Lamar Boulevard, you know, and about three miles apart. So we're pretty inundated and I just wanted to see, I believe that our concept traveled outside of Austin. I believe that our concept really works most places and I wanted to see what we could do. And so San Antonio made the most sense because of our commissary and our delivery, so we can be in San Antonio in just over an hour. And that made it. And, by the way, we just went down, you know, i-35 and we opened a store in Kyle and one in San Marcus and one in New Braunfels and then into San Antonio and so so from a logistics standpoint it made sense, but it was really kind of a challenge. Now, I don't, you know, there is something I truly believe in and you know I have to tell you real quickly, I spoke at a UT, at the MBA program, one time it was a wonderful class, and the professor called me after the class and he said I got to tell you the students loved it and I thank you for coming. And I said well, I appreciate that. And he said but I got to tell you I'm probably not going to be inviting you back. And I said totally fine, can you ask, can you tell me why? And he said well, there's nowhere on the syllabus that just says work hard and listen to your customers. And I said okay, well, I get it, cause that's, frankly, all I know to do, to the God's honest truth is that's all I need, that's all I know what to do. And so you know we take. What I was getting to is, at some point you take a leap of faith and you've listened to the people around you and at some point, obviously, you're the one that has to make the final decision. And then you, just you know, you trust your experience over all these years and you know you make the jump. You just make the jump. Chris: So I guess just you know, since I live in Houston, what was it about Houston that makes you think that you know again the concept travels? Why the first location in Richmond? What are some of the things there that you know, you and your team see and are excited about that you and your team see and are excited about. Patrick: So we picked that part of Houston because we could drive from Austin again for our commissary until at some point we will hopefully have a satellite commissary in Houston. But a lot of it is the loops are of interest. There's a lot of growth there, there's a lot of room for expansion and, frankly, when you get in the middle of all of your fair city it gets very expensive. So you kind of go to the loops because the land is cheaper and the leases are cheaper. So there's definitely some of that. I'm just being very honest about it. I mean, there's some great locations but I can't spend $300,000 a year on a ground lease, you know it doesn't, I think it's a well. Chris: the transparency is what we're after here, and I think, again, kind of for a listener to go look, you may have some great ideas, but be smart about that expansion. It goes back to the first thing you said. You've been mindful in this business of controlling cost, and obviously I can speak to it. You're picking locations where the population's growing, so that's not a bad thing either. Right, your demographics must line up with the things that you know makes a store successful. Patrick: And at the same time and I've got a competitor across the street from me, across the highway from me, in San Marcos, and you know he picked a really bad location and my assumption is he picked it because it was cheap. So you know there's a balance here, right? You know you got the land for $60,000 a year and the reason is because nobody can get to it, so you got to be careful about that. You know, I had a friend of mine come to me. He and his wife came to me years ago and said I think we're going to get into the restaurant business. And I said why? And he said, well, we're going to sell, I think we're going to sell sandwiches. And I said what are you going to do that? And he said, well, people have to eat. And I said yeah, but they don't have to eat at your restaurant. And unfortunately, you know there is. You know, you just have to look at this stuff so realistically. And that balance of, yeah, I'd love to be in that location, but it's a wonderful location, but it costs me so much. All I'm going to do is sell burgers and, you know, not make any money, that's right, I get to pay the landlord to sell burgers, right? Yeah, that's exactly what it is. That boy, that's a tough. That's a tough way to spend your day. Chris: Well, patrick, thank you so much for sharing the story and the ups and downs, but I'm looking forward to having a burger once you get here you said you did it in Austin, obviously, and it is as good as you described. I want to turn a little bit to just a little personal side of things. Obviously, you've said a couple of times you just know how to work hard. What was your first job, even as a kid? Patrick: So I had a lemonade, a Kool-Aid, stand in front of my, in front of our house I was probably five or six and my dad was, and my parents were always there and always had suggestions and my dad came up to me and he said you need to put the because we lived in West Texas. I grew up in Abilene and you think your summers are hot, so my dad said you need to put the temperature on the. On your poster and and I said so I wrote it's 102, kool-aid, five cents. And you know the car stopped and it was such a great idea and so I always had that influence. I said that was my probably my first inroad. I remember in seventh grade I started selling candy bars there was no you know, costco or Walmart or anything back then or Sam's to the grocery store and buy a little six-pack of Hershey's. My mom would go and take me and I started selling so many candy bars at the 10.30 break that I was messing up the senior store at noon and the superintendent called me in and told me to stop. So that's funny, all right. Chris: So this is a question I ask everyone, and I'm incredibly intrigued to get your answer, because you're the self-described hamburger guy. Right, I got to know do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Patrick: Oh, I'll go to Tex-Mex all day, okay. Chris: I'll go to Tex-Mex. Patrick: And I love barbecue, don't get me wrong. But I got to tell you if I can have chicken enchiladas with the verde sauce and a side of rice and beans. I am doing just fine. Chris: Okay, so it's your second favorite meal. Patrick: it sounds like yeah, absolutely, my poor children. I'll tell you this real quick. I know you want to wind it down. My daughter is 16 now and when she was 10, she went on a water ski camp and she spent the day. And she got in the car and she said I said what'd you have for lunch? And she said they served these submarine sandwiches. And I said, oh, what'd you get? And she said a meatball sandwich. And I said, oh, that's great. And I said you don't seem like you're in a good mood. And she said I didn't know those existed because my poor children eat P Terry's every day. So that's, you know, that's it's a family deal. I love it. Chris: It reminds me of the story of you know, it was in a movie a while back right when the parents try to tell convince the kids that yogurt was vanilla ice cream exactly. Patrick, thanks again. Really enjoyed meeting you and hearing your story. Congratulations on the success and best of luck as you expand and move into the Houston market. Patrick: I appreciate it Well. I'd love to meet you one day and grab a burger. Chris: Let's do it, in fact, let's stay in touch on when that Richmond store is open, and I'll be there. Patrick: Absolutely, absolutely, and I'll even buy. Chris: What do you think? That's a heck of a deal. Very good, well, thanks again. Patrick: Thank you, I enjoyed it very much.

To skip the intro, tap 3:25   Service plays a pivotal role in the recovery journey for individuals battling addiction.  Engaging in acts of service fosters a sense of purpose and meaning. It shifts the focus from self-centered concerns to the well-being of others, promoting empathy and compassion.  By contributing to something greater than themselves, individuals in recovery build self-esteem, confidence, and a renewed sense of value. Service provides an opportunity to connect with others facing similar struggles, forging supportive relationships crucial for sustained recovery. Tonight, we talk about Service. This week,  Ginger, Becky, Kim, Amanda, Shelly, Jim, Schez, Vicki, Rebekah, Bryan, Dana, Tonja, Jean, Joel, Martin They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  Gretchen, Kurt, Gigi, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com

To skip the intro, tap 3:25   The "pink cloud" phenomenon in recovery, characterized by feelings of euphoria and heightened optimism, can be both a blessing and a potential hazard. During this phase, individuals often feel an overwhelming sense of relief and happiness, believing that they have conquered their addiction once and for all. While this positive outlook can be motivating, it can also create unrealistic expectations about the recovery process. This overconfidence might lead individuals to underestimate the challenges ahead and neglect essential recovery activities such as attending meetings, engaging with a sponsor, or continuing with their daily self-care routines. When the initial euphoria fades, they may find themselves unprepared for the inevitable emotional and psychological struggles, increasing the risk of relapse. Tonight, we talk about The Pink Cloud. This week,  Ginger, Becky, Kim, Amanda, Shelly, Jim, Schez, Vicki, Rebekah, Bryan, Dana, Tonja, Jean, Joel, Martin They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  Gretchen, Kurt, Gigi, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com

To skip the intro, tap 3:25   Understanding the difference between being clinically depressed and experiencing sadness is important for effective self-care. Sadness is a natural, often transient emotion in response to life's challenges, disappointments, or losses. It can feel overwhelming at times, but typically, sadness is manageable and diminishes with time. Sadness might arise due to changes in relationships, or the challenges of adapting to a new way of life. While sadness can be intense, it usually doesn't persist or significantly impair daily functioning once the immediate situation has been addressed. Tonight, we talk about Sadness Vs. Depression.   This week,  Ginger, Becky, Kim, Amanda, Shelly, Jim, Schez, Vicki, Rebekah, Bryan, Dana, Tonja, Jean, Joel, Martin They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  Gretchen, Kurt, Gigi, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com

To skip the intro, tap 3:25   Surrender is a fundamental concept in the journey of recovery from addiction, signifying a willingness to relinquish control and accept the reality of one's powerlessness over substances or other's behaviors. It marks a pivotal moment of recognition, where individuals come to terms with the fact that their attempts to manage or control their addiction have been futile. Surrender does not signify weakness but rather strength, as it requires individuals to confront their vulnerabilities and humbly acknowledge their need for help. By surrendering to reality, individuals open themselves up to the possibility of healing and transformation, paving the way for a new way of living free from the grips of substance abuse.   Tonight, we talk about Surrender   This week,  Jinifer, Rebekah, Bryan, Dana, Tonja, Jean They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com  

To skip the intro, tap 3:25   Step 2 holds profound significance as it invites individuals to embark on a journey of hope and faith. This step encourages individuals to believe in a power greater than themselves and to recognize that their efforts alone may not be sufficient to overcome the challenges of addiction. The importance of Step 2 lies in its ability to provide a sense of solace and assurance, especially in moments of doubt and despair. It opens the door to the possibility of healing by fostering a connection with a higher power, however, one chooses to define it, and in doing so, it lays the groundwork for a spiritual awakening. Tonight, we talk about Step 2.   This week,  Tony, Sam, Chris, Chance, Jean They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  McQ, Helen, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com

"The Doctor's Opinion" chapter in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous is a pivotal section that plays a foundational role in the recovery process for individuals struggling with drug and alcohol addiction. Written by Dr. William D. Silkworth, a renowned physician who specialized in the treatment of alcoholism in the early 20th century, this chapter offers a medical perspective on the nature of alcoholism and addiction. Dr. Silkworth describes alcoholism as an illness that is progressive, chronic, and potentially fatal, emphasizing the physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of the disease. His compassionate and empathetic approach to understanding addiction not only helped destigmatize the condition but also paved the way for the acceptance of the disease model of addiction in the medical and recovery communities. The Doctor's Opinion lends credibility to the idea that addiction is a medical condition, not simply a moral failing, which is an essential paradigm shift for those seeking recovery. Tonight, we talk about the Doctor's Opinion   This week,  Tonja, Karen, jean, Jenny, Rebekah, Jinifer, Bryan, Dana They made their Sustaining Partner Donations. For more information, tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner   This episode is sponsored by  Chris They used the donation button found on our website at Episode Sponsor   Visit our website http://recoveredcast.com

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Rafael Nasr, the man behind Craft Pita. Rafael shares his fascinating journey in the food industry, from starting his first business at a young age to launching Craft Pita. He talks about his experiences running a food truck and working for other businesses, emphasising the value of community involvement. We also discussed his perspective on private equity and assembly-line restaurants and how these experiences shaped him as an entrepreneur. It's an inspiring discussion with a successful food industry leader. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Rafael Nasr the founder of Craft Pita, began his entrepreneurial journey at 20 with a food truck, which was a learning experience in managing all aspects of a business and the importance of choosing the right business partner. He worked in various roles in the food industry before opening Craft Pita, learning about the importance of being part of a community, the impact of private equity, and the challenges of assembly style models. When opening Craft Pita, Nase had the goal of creating a scalable concept, planning from day one to open multiple locations. The name Craft Pita was chosen to reflect the restaurant's focus on quality and to clearly communicate the type of cuisine to potential customers. Rafael believes that hiring decisions are crucial in the restaurant industry, looking for a high hospitality quotient for front of house staff and attention to detail and quality for back of house staff. The company culture at Craft Pita is centered around sharing culture through food, creating an atmosphere where guests feel like they are walking into a family home. He had to adapt quickly to the challenges brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic, transforming the restaurant into a drive-through and offering additional products such as cleaning supplies and produce boxes. As a leader, Nasr believes in being in the trenches with his team and also knowing when to step back and let them do their own thing. He emphasizes the importance of empathy, awareness, and adaptability in leadership. We discuss the challenges of managing a team with diverse ages, backgrounds, and perspectives, emphasizing the need to individualize leadership styles. The podcast episode concludes with Nasser sharing his plans for a third Kraft Pita location and discussing the financial and legal implications of business expansion. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Rafael NasrAbout Rafael TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Rafael Nasr, founder of Kraft Pita. Rafi is growing a fast-casual restaurant concept with the goal of sharing culture through food. Rafi, I want to thank you for joining me here on the podcast. First, I just want to start with tell us who your, what your business is, what are you known for? Rafael:Yes, I am the owner and operator of Kraft Pita. We have two restaurants here in the Houston area, One in the Briar Grove Tanglewood Galleria area on San Felipe and Foundview, and we just opened our second location last November over on Buffalo. Speedway in West Park, here in the West U area, very close to y'all's office. Chris: Yeah, and I'm grateful for that, by the way. So I've heard a little bit, but I want to hear from you. Tell us what inspired you to start Kraft Pita. Rafael: Yes, so I'm a first-generation Lebanese, peruvian American. My father is from Northern Lebanon, and I spent my summers visiting my grandmother in Lebanon. My family has a restaurant business there as well, and so I spent a lot of my summers, you know, hanging out in my uncle's restaurant, always around food. I was the kind of kid classic story of grabbing scraps off the table at my grandma's house while the other kids are playing. You know, my sisters wanted to go to the beach and I wanted to go find the best shawarma possible. Chris: Okay, so that was the origin of my interest in the business when I was at Texas. Rafael: Christian University studying entrepreneurial management. I actually opened a food truck while I was in school, so I started my first business when I was 20 years old. It was basically a late night business for all the college kids after they got back home from the bars, soaking up a little of what they had enjoyed at the bars. So, as a university, this is a safety thing you guys need. And I sold my business because I wanted to graduate on time and TCU is not a cheap school by any means and worked for several other businesses but kind of, while all that was going on, working for other restaurants. Chris:I knew I wanted to open my own restaurant. Rafael: I saw an opportunity here in the Houston market for a higher quality Middle Eastern Mediterranean food. Chris: Okay, I love the idea that you started your first business when you were 20. Yeah, tell us, what was that like? Rafael: That was insane. I would go to class from 8am until 3.30. I would prep food from 3.30 to 5.30. And I would serve from about 6pm until 2am. Luckily I found my girlfriend slash wife right before I started the business, because my social life kind of took a back seat. So it was, you know, I didn't go to college anticipating being in the restaurant business, but it taught me what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I can tell you it was a lot cheaper than my degree, but it was a really valuable lesson in what it takes as an entrepreneur to wear all hats in a business, and I learned that very early on in my career and it set me on for a great path to eventually own craft beer. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk about kind of the things, that lessons you learned. You know doing that food truck, and then you get the idea for craft pita. What were you doing before that? And then what sparked you to kind of take the step to go on your own again? Rafael: Yeah. So lessons I learned owning my food truck tell you a very valuable one. I didn't have a great partner. You know that was part of the reason I wanted to get out of the business and I think that was a really valuable lesson I learned super early in my career and I think that's a valuable lesson for any entrepreneur is that when you choose who you're doing business with, it's like you're getting into a marriage. Chris: Right. Rafael: And I also learned that you know when you are starting a small business, particularly in the food side of the industry. You have to do as much as humanly possible yourself, because labor is your biggest expense. And I was in school and owning a business. I think if I was just running the business, I could have been more profitable. Things could have gone better. That was a valuable lesson I learned. I think everyone has a study. Oh, I want to, you know, invest in a restaurant. I want to bar, do this and it'd be cool. But I also want to do what I'm doing. This is a all in business. Gotcha and obviously now I'm all in. Chris: Look, I think what you say is right. I'll say I'm not sure it's much different for most businesses. If you're really going to be in it as the entrepreneur, owner, founder, you have to be all in for sure. Rafael: And especially that applies to business. Where business is, where you know human capital is the business you know you're. You need hands to to prepare something, you need hands to to serve something. And after that I came back here to Houston. I worked for a family friend over a Island Grill. Oh sure, yeah, I worked for a phasal, helped him open up his bunker hill store, worked there for about a year and I learned a lot working there. You know I learned that being a member of a community, being in neighborhood, a restaurant and shaking hands and kissing babies is a big part of being successful in this industry. I also worked for him to also gauge what Houston's interests were in the cuisine and Mediterranean food. After that I went to go work for a company called Bert's Cabot, which it was a Chipotle style Middle Eastern restaurant Okay, and they were opening up several units very fast to MBA guys out of UT and when I worked for them it was amazing they're growing really fast. But I also saw the negatives of what happens when private equity gets involved and their only priority is opening as many units as possible. I also learned that the assembly style, chipotle style model was not something I wanted to do for Kraft Pita. I thought it was something I wanted to do, but it's kind of hard to convey quality and translate that when you're going through an assembly, style, model, concept right. And I knew at Kraft Pita I wanted to be a better quality than like a sublayer Chipotle or any of those things. I also learned from them that branding is a really important thing. They, when I joined them, they were Bert's Cabot, then they were Bert's and then they became New Mediterranean and there was Turkish donor kebabs that are influenced by German food and I just learned that you don't have much time to translate what your food is to people especially when you're not selling American food. Chris: It sounds like they had an identity crisis. Rafael: It was an identity crisis and literally sometimes it was honestly just the name. You know your name is so important when you're in the food business and you can be kitschy, you can be cute, but when people read your name or need to type it into a web browser or into a social media search bar, it's got to be clear and has to be concise and has to translate what the product is. Chris: Yeah, sounds like you had an immense amount of learning in just a few years. Rafael: That was just two years and at the time my wife she's still in tech sales she moved to Austin so I followed her over there and I tried to get into fine dining. No one would hire me in any of the fine dining restaurants because of my past casual experience and taking two jobs in two years, so I ended up taking a job with Poppus at Popocitos I'm 35 in Austin and I stayed there for about three and a half years. I thought about going to culinary school but I already spent a lot of money on my degree and I decided to go work for Poppus because, being here in Houston, everybody knows the weight that name holds and also their management training is probably the best in the country when it comes to the hospitality industry. Chris: They're definitely known for that. Rafael: And they're known for that from outside of the industry when it comes to management, and I decided to go work for them, because why am I going to go to culinary school when I can go to restaurant school and they'll pay me? Chris: for it. Rafael: So that was an amazing opportunity I learned they have you start off as a busser and then a server, then a bartender, then a front of house manager, then you're a kitchen manager and when you get in the kitchen they have you work the fry line, then the grill line, make salads. They really. I learned there that as a manager, if you want to gain the respect of people that you're managing, you have to be able to do the job. You probably want to do it as well as them, but you have to know how to do it. Sure, I mean, there there was guys working the grill that were as old as I was. They've been working there for as long as they've been alive, right. So it's one thing to manage a few people, but then when you're a restaurant like that and you're managing 40 people at once, it really taught me everything I need to know to be ready to go my own. Chris: So you mentioned the importance of branding. So what was it that led you to Kraftpita True Mediterranean and to develop the concept that you came up with? Rafael: So funny story about the name Kraftpita. I'd actually come up with it before we opened our food truck. We ended up not using the name and one day in Austin we had been brainstorming what we would call the restaurant, whatever. My wife brought the name up and she said what about Kraftpita? And I was like that's a great name. What did you think of that? She said you came up with it 10 years ago. Chris: You were forgotten. Rafael: I had forgotten. I'm like man. I'm so glad my wife remembered. Chris: And again. Well, let me pause there For those that were at TCU late night what was the food truck? Rafael: called. So the food truck is again an example of bad branding. It was called Mediterranean Chunky Monkey. This was my partner's idea and actually funny story. We had gotten a cease and desist letter from Ben and Jerry's for the name because they owned the rights to all food products that have the words chunky and monkey next to it. I wish I would have known you then. Maybe you could have held down. Chris: The other important having a good legal team right yes, exactly. Rafael: But to that point I told, hey, make sure you look it up. We're all good. Obviously didn't, but this time around I definitely looked up, covered my bases, so, and luckily we were selling the truck at the time while they were sending us the cease and desist letter. We chose the name Kraftpita because, like I mentioned earlier, when you read the words Kraftpita and you know it's a restaurant, you know you're walking into a Mediterranean, middle Eastern restaurant and because of the word Kraft, that you are walking into somewhere that has premium goods baked from scratch, made to order, it connotates quality and true Mediterranean is partially a joke. Lebanese people think they invented everything and the Greeks think they invented everything. The Turkish think they invented everything. Palestinians, israelis it's a little bit of tongue-in-cheek of Lebanese food is the best Mediterranean food and we do believe that. Obviously I'm very biased, but I think what makes Lebanese food the best Mediterranean food is it has this through line of a freshness and spices that really brings the food up a few notches, whereas Greek food is not super heavy in the spices but lots of fresh herbs and things like that. And then, if you go into Turkish cuisine, syrian, jordanian, palestinian, and even if you go into Persian cuisine. There's a lot of spices. I think Lebanese food is that right balance of spices and freshness, and so that's where Kraftpia two Mediterranean food. Chris: I love it. So you opened your first location. You now expanded to a second location and some would say, especially in the restaurant business, going to that second one to two is a huge jump, because can you make it work when you now your attention split between two different locations? How have you made that work? Because part of that comes with having a good team. Rafael: Definitely. We developed Craft Media from day one to be a scalable concept, so we always knew we were going to have more than one location. It starts and when you, it's one thing to open a restaurant and then think about opening another one, but when you do it from day one, it does make it a bit easier. Not saying that it's been easy, but, for example, our menu is not that big, it's consolidated. We developed managers and a management training program that allowed us to train up one set of managers and then split them off once the new store opened. The other thing that I'm very lucky to have is I work with my mother, claudia. Her and I are a great team and I kind of spend, you know, 80% of my time at the new store 20% of my time at old store, whereas my mother does about a good 75 25 split. She stays at the old store and that makes a huge difference. You know, having ownership presence is one of the most important things at a restaurant and because I have, you know, because we're a team, we're able to split our time. Chris: Yeah. What is it then about making sure you're hiring right, because so many people you know and I, we live it here and I think any business owner you talk to is the hiring decisions are so critical to getting it right. What are some of the things that you do at Craftpita to make sure you're making the best decision you can when you make that hiring decision? Rafael: Definitely. At Craftpita we have a very high standard for hospitality. I do think it's something you can teach people, but there isn't a nature of hospitality when it comes to front of house. We really just ask basic questions like where do you like to eat? What's your favorite example of a good restaurant experience? You know, and typically you can find out if someone has hospitality based on the way they grew up, based on you know their families. They'll tell you. Like you know, my mother taught me. You know, to say hi bye every time I left the house, small things like that. And then in back of house we really try to find people who care about quality, because there's a lot of restaurants where now certain things are so a cookie cutter but they don't even really have to think while they're cooking. It just comes out and we're not selling. You know a very basic food we're selling food. You know, some people have never made hummus before or tasted in their life, and so how are you supposed to hire someone, teach them this recipe and know, even though, what the expectation is. So, front of house, we really look for a high hospitality quotient. You know, when we're interviewing in a back of house, attention to detail and quality, those things are really important for us. Chris: That makes sense. So how would you describe, maybe, the culture that you are building there at Craftpita, as you started it, and now growing it to multiple locations? Rafael: Definitely. I think you know it's in our mission statement that we are committed to sharing culture through food and I think that's really the company culture we try to derive at Craftpita. You know the two cultures I come from actually the three. You know, in Lebanese culture, hospitality is a big thing. You walk into your grandma's house, she gives you hugs and kisses and then there's about seven courses of food that come out, and you know that that food and that is part of the love right, and same thing with my mother's Peruvian culture it's all about family, all about having good time, all about being together and food is kind of this the core part of that and then also being here in Houston. Chris: I mean, you know, I always think Houston is where the south meets the rest of the country and southern hospitality is a thing. Rafael: So, yeah, we really just want you to feel like you're walking into our house and that's the company culture we build and that comes from you know, serving high quality products, and everyone has a group effort making sure people feel welcome. Chris: Very good, excuse me. So let's talk about starting a business and all that not easy. What are some of the maybe setbacks you've encountered and what have you done to overcome those? We've been through some, you know turbulent times recently and I'm sure starting a new business has not been the easiest. Yeah, what are some of the lessons learned that you could share with our listeners on that? Rafael: I mean, I think and I hope no one else has to deal with this lesson ever again, but I COVID happened six months after I opened my restaurant ouch yeah so I, you know, spent my whole life dreaming of this restaurant and you know things are going really well. We actually made a national list of the Yelp top 100 restaurants in America and it just made our business skyrocket because we were the only restaurant he's on the list wow and that was in January of 2020. Of course, you all know what happens February of 2020 and you know. I think the lesson with COVID is there will be outside forces that you did not predict that will affect your business and you can sit there and cry about it, you can roll over and die or you can hit the problem head on. I decided to. I realized when one of the big problems that was happening was how are people going to know we're open for business? Because not all a lot of people. You know we had the two week period here in Texas and some people stay closed and some people open up right after the two weeks happened. So I reached out to a friend of mine that had like a tent rental business and I said I need the biggest tent that can fit a f 350 because you know we got big trucks here in Houston. I need the biggest tent and I'm going to. I need to build a drive through. So I reached out to my landlord. I said, hey, can I do this? you was fine with it, and so we had a tent outside of a restaurant for, I want to say, about six to eight weeks okay, and you know several of my staff had to leave, for you know they had pre-existing conditions or they wanted to go on unemployment and so I basically worked for about 90 straight days outside selling food. I even started. I realized quickly that a lot of people wanted, like you know, cleaning supplies and gloves and sanitized. I got in the sanitizer business. I got in the gloves business. I reached out to my local farmers so I got produce from and I got farm share boxes. We became, you know, pseudo grocery store and that was that saved us, yeah, and a big reason another you know reason why that ended up working out for us is because of the presence of me, my mom, in the restaurant. I think a lot of people, you know, a lot of our local guests, didn't want us to fail right, that loyalty you know going above and beyond for people, for those several months that we were open, I think, built a relationship that to this day still keeps our business, you know, afloat, and a couple other things that our business ran into, partly still because of the whole COVID scenario. But other things is labor inflation over the last few years. I mean, I was looking at my business plan from 2019 and I was like I'm not projected labor numbers. I can tell you we're way above that. And then same thing with our food pricing still going up, and these are just things I think any business person will go through. Is, you know, outside forces affecting your business and unexpected increased costs that you cannot do anything to change? Right, you just have to find ways around it, whether that's giving the guests more value. In one way or another, you have to solve these problems or else they're going to take over. Chris: Yeah, it's funny you say, because most people having a good business plan is critically important and thoughtful and as soon as you finish the plan and go into action, the plan's worth nothing, right, exactly? Rafael: Since I opened my business 10 years ago, people have always come up to me with crackpot ideas. I want to open a bar, I want to open a restaurant, I want to go food truck. And my first question to them is have you drafted a business plan? And it's not. You know, the business plan is not the end, all be all. It's not what's going to get you all the investment money. But it is a plan. You just need guidelines. Chris: You need guidelines. Rafael: You have some thought laid out right, that's all Just laying out your thoughts and you know once you lay out your thoughts you should take that business plan, give it to someone who knows something and have them rip you to shreds. It's some of the. You know it might be humbling but it's necessary yeah. Chris: So how would you describe your leadership style? You know fairly young entrepreneur you mentioned earlier when you were in Poposita. Most people that were reporting to you were much older than you, so how have you managed through that and how has that leadership style developed? Rafael: Yeah, I think you know I've only been a manager. I've never. I never was like a server at a restaurant. So for me I've only been in management. I went from, you know, being on my own being a manager I would say not a very good one at all in any way, shape or form and I was maybe managing four or five people. Then I went to a mom and pop business where there was one central leader and I was just kind of a cog in that wheel and I molded my style of leadership then to, you know, be a service leader and help out the staff with Under Me and kind of bring whatever they needed to my boss. And then at Verds it was kind of like a, you know, a small to mid-sized growing business where they were really trying to implement their leadership style and I just I kind of went along with whatever they needed. But it was a little bit autonomous in the sense that they were headquartered in Austin, not in Houston. So you kind of also have to develop an in-store, in-store leadership that you are, at the end of the day, the point person. Papa's taught me that you know, you can't manage everybody to say, especially in a big restaurant like that, you do have to individualize your leadership style with people. And I think in my industry I think that's a really important lesson, because some because at the end of the day, when you're managing people and you're being a leader, there are the moments where you're in a big like pre-shift total and everybody's listening to you and in those scenarios I would say I tend to do extremely well because I can command a presence. And then there's the times where you have to sit someone aside and listen and just let them talk and that is not necessarily you leading from, that's not necessarily you leading in the sense that you're telling them what to do. Chris: But by you just listening. You're showing them that you're there for them. Rafael: And I think I would describe my leadership style as I don't even know this, but experiential. You know, I'm in the trenches with my people and I also know when to pull back and let them do their own thing. Chris: Well, I think what you were describing earlier is as a leader, how important it is when you're talking about the listening side is to demonstrate an empathy Right, and you learn so much. I mean you're managing or leading people. Everyone's different and one size doesn't fit all. Rafael: One size does not fit all, especially in the restaurant industry, where, in a lot of hospitality, where you're dealing with teenagers, middle-aged people and older people I mean just from the age perspective, let alone people's different backgrounds you have to not everyone's in the same bubble, right. Chris: You know, some of the best workers I have are teenagers, and it's their first job. Rafael: They've never done anything before, but I've molded them into what I need at Craft Pita. And then other times you might get someone who's a 20-year vet in the industry, but they don't listen. So you might have to stroke some egos and let them do their thing, but those two people you have to manage completely differently. So, yeah, it's been definitely. Throughout the years, my leadership style has changed and I think that's a good thing, to acknowledge that. You can go through ups and downs, but just constantly being, I feel, like awareness, in my opinion, is probably the most important trait as a leader if you're the owner of a company, because if you have that awareness that you might need to change your leadership style or sometimes you got turned up, sometimes you got turned down. That will take you really far. Chris: Very true, very true. So interested to ask you about this. So you've expanded to a second location. You said earlier when you started you were always planning to scale this business. So I have to think this is a question on a lot of entrepreneurs' minds what does it take, or when do you know when's the right time to make that expansion? And you know because you're gonna be facing it. You probably are now, but when do you go to the third store? So what are some of the things that you look forward, that you've learned to look forward to know when it's right? Rafael: Of course I think it's. I think this applies to a lot of businesses and it definitely applies to the restaurant business. One, obviously, financials you have to make sure that you can afford to expand right, and I think that's obviously an obvious one. But you should be conservative. This is a tough business in the sense of it's very capital intensive. To open up a restaurant Construction is a nightmare. Dealing with the city is a nightmare. You don't. You can have a really good idea of what something will cost to build out a restaurant, and I can't tell you it's wrong. I definitely had some struggles getting this store open and it was already a second-generation restaurant which normally should be easy, but it goes to like. Chris: The lease terms and tenant allowances are important, and then timing of when you're going to actually rent commences off of completion. All those. Rafael: Which the first store. You know, we dealt with a smaller landlord, the local landlord, and this new store. Over here on Bubblest Weedway there's a big national one. And just dealing with that legal process inside. That was really eye-opening to me. But yeah, that all plays into the financial decision, right. Secondly, I would say knowing when you're ready is it's a management autonomy issue? Is the restaurant running itself? Yeah, if you took a step back. What would happen? I was fortunate enough to kind of have a situation be forced upon me in that I had to go on my honeymoon, I had to get married. You know, my wife wasn't gonna let me get away with that one, so she was tired of waiting Is she we watch ad proposed and then COVID pushed back our wedding about two years but it was kind of a good. Hey, I need to get this restaurant to function for two weeks without me and obviously with COVID having all this stuff. I was very hands-on with the business but I think a lot of small business owners, specifically a lot of restaurant small business owners, struggle with like literally trying to step away. You have to. It's active, that don't do it passively is I'm going to walk? Chris: away today. Rafael: And you know what, if they mess up a catering order, if they mess up a few, this happens, that happens. You got to kind of, you know, eat sour grapes, or else you're never going to be able to scale. Chris: Well, and I think on that mess up part, I mean, obviously it's usually more in how you respond to the mistake than the fact that you made one, because we're all human, yes, now, if you consistently make mistakes, that's one thing, but if you make it, your customer may not be happy, but how you respond and own it and make up for it will speak volumes as to whether they give grace. Rafael: Absolutely Two things on that. One, I always one of my management things is it's okay if you make mistakes, I just care that you learn from them. If you show me you don't learn from mistakes, that's telling me you don't care? Yeah, you know we're, it's human, whether it you know, what we do is very. There's a lot of errors, whether it's temperature or technique, whatever. It's just a matter of if you do learn from those mistakes. So, if you have to step away from your business and your team makes a mistake, it's very important to say, okay, guys, how do we prevent this from happening again? And on that same point, this is something I learned from Papas is that you know if you make a mistake and you train your guests that, no matter what mistake happens at our restaurant, we're going to fix it, whether that's comping it, remaking it, giving them a gift card for the next time they come in, or just if some of those people want it as an apology or to be heard. It trains your guests that your money is good here. If you spend $50 here, we're going to make sure you get $50 worth of your time and money. Yeah, so I think that's super important, Very good. Chris: Well, so Let me ask you this I mean, as we kind of wrap things up, what are one or two things you would advise anyone, whether it's to start a restaurant or just any business, to kind of keep in mind as they move forward with that plan, that dream, whatever it may be? Rafael: I would say, you know, to touch on a few things that we've already talked about at the end of the day. The restaurant business is not about food. It is about people. It is about your own people and it is about your guests. You're gonna spend a majority of your time dealing with your own people or dealing with guests. You're not gonna spend a whole lot of time, you know, coming up with recipes and making sure the food turns out perfect. That's obviously a given, but the restaurant industry is a people business, so you have to mold everything you do around taking care of your own people and taking care of guests and if you approach it. That way you're gonna be successful most of the time and hopefully you're halfway decent at making food. But that's just probably the first thing I would tell people. Secondly, you know I don't want to be one of those people that says stay away from the restaurant business. But this is. It is a business that requires high business acumen as well as knowing how to operate. I consider myself you know I'm a chef. I've been cooking for 10 years but I will always consider myself a business, a businessman before a chef. And I think that's an important I think if you approach operating this in this line of work as being a businessman or woman, I think you're going to be successful. More than do I make delicious food. Chris: You're 100% right. I mean, if you can't run in any industry, if you can't run a disciplined business, you can make the best product, whether it's a plate of food or a widget your business won't survive. Someone else will take over that widget or replace you, but your business won't be there unless you can run a smart, disciplined business and that has financially human capital yeah, lots of tenants to it. So, very true, all right, so let's have a little fun. This will be interesting from you, since you've shared your passion for your food and from your culture. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Rafael: Ooh, that's a tough one. I'm a big barbecue guy. That's probably my passion food. Chris: Oh, I love it yeah. Rafael: I'll never get in the business. I actually just did a barbecue cook-off in Midland at the Permian Basin Cook-Off. I did barbecue for about 14 hours. I respect all my friends at barbecue so much more after doing that, I bet. Chris: So barbecue, barbecue, it is all right. So if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, which you've already explained how difficult that would be for you where would you go? What would you do? Rafael: Oh man, 30-day sabbatical. I've always wanted to do a trip to Japan. I've yet to go there. It's one of the culinary capitals of the world. I would like to go there and kind of get out of my comfort zone from a perspective of not being able to speak the language and not being super familiar with the culture. So I probably do about 30 days in Japan if I could. Chris: All right, and I don't usually go here, but since you're an expanding business, you've got two. When can we expect the third-craft, pita? Rafael: Third-craft pita. We're very comfortable with where we're at right now. It's going to be a lot easier to find a third location when we already have two operating. And I told my realtor team hey, give me the green light. I'd probably say 16 months. Ok 16 months. Chris: Well, as I've said before, I've told you I think you're doing a great thing. It's a great concept, the food's outstanding and congratulations, thank you so much. Rafael: I really appreciate it because it really means a lot. Chris:Well, thanks again for being here, enjoyed here and your story, and I wish you the best success. Awesome, thank you. Special Guest: Rafael Nasr.

Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it's not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur. Guest: Chris Sexton Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University.  Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show.  CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.  MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris' food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from.  CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon… MARY: Don't give your whole secret away.  CHRIS: No, everything's not coming, but we've got great stuff coming.  MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you're in finance.  CHRIS: I'm in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy's Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal.  MARY: Oh, wow. CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt.  MARY: Wow.  CHRIS: And they all came out great.  MARY: Yeah. On your first time. CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great. MARY: Right.   CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it's what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there.  MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie. CHRIS: A foodie.  MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie.  CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I've ever had.  MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff.  CHRIS: And it's encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.” MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different. MARY: Yeah. It totally is.  CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I'm tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done. MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?   CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit.  MARY: Oh yeah.  CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce.  MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.   CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon. MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.”  CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you've ever had.”  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know.  MARY: Exactly.  CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you're thinking barbecue sauce.  MARY: Totally.  CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in.  MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?   CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering.  MARY:Yeah.  CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill.  MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food.  CHRIS: So yeah, if you're looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I'm your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher.  MARY: Right. CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up.  MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them.  CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it's crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball. MARY: Wow. CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap. MARY: Right. CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.  MARY: 22 wrecks? CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents.  MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris. CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants.  MARY: They don't mix.  CHRIS: That's not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies…  MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies.  CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient.  MARY: Yes. CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick MARY: Right. You had no idea.  CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it's going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it's the sauce, it's the sauce, it's the sauce.”  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.” MARY: Right. CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.   MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does. CHRIS: That's my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to… MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps.  CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke's manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you're getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you'll see my pretty face on it. MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold.  CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business… MARY: It is.  CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant. MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners.  CHRIS: That's been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand.  MARY: Right. Wow.  CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that's the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I'm making solid decisions.  MARY: And you understand that risk.  CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone. MARY: Absolutely. CHRIS: You don't want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That's not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do.  MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you? CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I'm kind of shy.  MARY: I don't believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine.  CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead. MARY: I believe that.  CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up. MARY:  Right. CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire.  MARY: Oh, no. Yeah.  CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on.  MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time. CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I've got a grandson now.  MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather.  CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it's something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me...  MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him. CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years.  MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like. CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you? MARY: Right. Exactly.  CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am.  MARY: And who cares? If they're laughing at you, they're looking at you?  CHRIS: They're looking at you. They're going to remember.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce.  MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.   CHRIS: Want to hear a good story? MARY: Yeah always.  CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?  MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.  CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…  MARY: Yeah.   CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.  MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all's stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.  CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me. MARY: Right. CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.  MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?  CHRIS: I'm going to steal one from Ted Lasso.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming. MARY: Right. Be prepared.  CHRIS: Be prepared because something's around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.  MARY: Yes.  CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it's what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So it's what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It's got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.  MARY: I love that. The three F's.  CHRIS: The three F's.  MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.  CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?  MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.  CHRIS: I don't know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.  CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own. MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.  MARY: And put them together.  CHRIS: So this is kind of what I've done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I'm willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you've never had a flavor like this.  MARY: All right, let's see it.  CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.  MARY: He's going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that's a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?  CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.  MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.  CHRIS: Cheers.  MARY: Oh my gosh.  CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.  MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?  CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.  MARY: Oh yeah. So, we're going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.  CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.  MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it's the entertainment and food. You can't beat that. CHRIS: Let me tell you.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I didn't mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.  MARY: It does taste good.  CHRIS: It tastes good. I'm a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.  MARY: I think you have too.  CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.  MARY: I think…I can't put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?  CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it's Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton's, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.  MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.  CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.  MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.  The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it. So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

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Coping with grief and loss while in recovery can be an immensely challenging journey, as individuals find themselves navigating the complex emotions of bereavement without resorting to their former substances of choice. In this delicate balance between managing sobriety and processing profound sorrow, seeking a robust support system is paramount. Engaging with therapy, support groups, and counseling specific to both grief and addiction along with attendance at recovery meetings can provide an outlet for expression and healing. These platforms offer a safe space to share feelings of loss, reminisce about happier times, and learn healthy coping mechanisms that do not involve substances. Equipping oneself with these tools enables those in recovery to honor their emotions authentically while fortifying their commitment to sobriety. Tonight, we talk about Coping with Grief and Loss. http://recoveredcast.com 3:25 To skip the intro This week,  Karen, Kendy, Nathan, Tony, Dana, Bryan, Tonja, Jean Made their Sustaining Partner Donations. Tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner for more information This episode is sponsored by  Helen, McQ, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at recoveredcast.com/donation

Recovery from drugs and alcohol involves much more than just abstaining from substance use; it's a transformative journey that requires individuals to rebuild their sense of self and create a new identity. Substance abuse often becomes intertwined with a person's identity, affecting their behaviors, relationships, and even their self-perception. Thus, developing a new identity in recovery is crucial for achieving lasting sobriety and personal growth. Tonight, we talk about Building a New Identity in Recovery. http://recoveredcast.com 3:25 To skip the intro This week,  Karen, Kendy, Nathan, Tony, Dana, Bryan, Tonja, Jean Made their Sustaining Partner Donations. Tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner for more information This episode is sponsored by  Helen, McQ, Chris They used the donation button found on our website at recoveredcast.com/donation  

Dealing with disappointments and failures while in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction can be disheartening, but it's important to approach them as opportunities for growth and self-reflection. First and foremost, it is crucial to practice self-compassion and avoid self-blame. Recovery is a challenging process, and setbacks are a natural part of it. Instead of dwelling on the disappointment or failure, it can be helpful to focus on what can be learned from the experience. Reflecting on the triggers, circumstances, or choices that led to the disappointment can provide valuable insights into areas that need further attention and development in the recovery journey. Tonight, we talk about dealing with disappointments and failures http://recoveredcast.com 3:25 To skip the intro This week,  Penny, Jenny, Jinifer, Rebekah, Bryan, Dana, Tonja, Karen, Kendy, Jean Made their Sustaining Partner Donations. Tap http://recoveredcast.com/partner for more information This episode is sponsored by  Chris They used the donation button found on our website at recoveredcast.com/donation

Episode SummaryChris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the latest events in cloud security, which leads to an interesting analysis from Chris on how legal departments obscure valuable information that could lead to fewer security failures in the name of protecting company liability, and what the future of accountability for security failures looks like. Chris and Corey also discuss the newest dangers in cloud security and billing practices, and Chris describes his upcoming cloud security conference, fwd:cloudsec. About ChrisChris Farris has been in the IT field since 1994 primarily focused on Linux, networking, and security. For the last 8 years, he has focused on public-cloud and public-cloud security. He has built and evolved multiple cloud security programs for major media companies, focusing on enabling the broader security team's objectives of secure design, incident response and vulnerability management. He has developed cloud security standards and baselines to provide risk-based guidance to development and operations teams. As a practitioner, he's architected and implemented multiple serverless and traditional cloud applications focused on deployment, security, operations, and financial modeling.Chris now does cloud security research for Turbot and evangelizes for the open source tool Steampipe. He is one of the organizers of the fwd:cloudsec conference (https://fwdcloudsec.org) and has given multiple presentations at AWS conferences and BSides events.When not building things with AWS's building blocks, he enjoys building Legos with his kid and figuring out what interesting part of the globe to travel to next. He opines on security and technology on Mastodon, Twitter and his website https://www.chrisfarris.comLinks Referenced: Turbot: https://turbot.com/ fwd:cloudsec: https://fwdcloudsec.org/ Mastodon: https://infosec.exchange/@jcfarris Personal website: https://chrisfarris.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn and we are here today to learn exciting things, steal exciting secrets, and make big trouble for Moose and Squirrel. Maybe that's the podcast; maybe that's the KGB, we're not entirely sure. But I am joined once again by Chris Farris, cloud security nerd at Turbot, which I will insist on pronouncing as ‘Turbo.' Chris, thanks for coming back.Chris: Thanks for having me.Corey: So, it's been a little while and it's been an uneventful time in cloud security with nothing particularly noteworthy happening, not a whole lot of things to point out, and honestly, we're just sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel for news… is what I wish I could say, but it isn't true. Instead, it's, “Oh, let's see what disastrous tire fire we have encountered this week.” What's top of mind for you as we record this?Chris: I think the most interesting one I thought was, you know, going back and seeing the guilty plea from Nickolas Sharp, who formerly was an employee at Ubiquiti and apparently had, like, complete access to everything there and then ran amok with it.Corey: Mm-hm.Chris: The details that were buried at the time in the indictment, but came out in the press releases were he was leveraging root keys, he was leveraging lifecycle policies to suppress the CloudTrail logs. And then of course, you know, just doing dumb things like exfiltrating all of this data from his home IP address, or exfiltrating it from his home through a VPN, which have accidentally dropped and then exposed his home IP address. Oops.Corey: There's so much to dive into there because I am not in any way shape or form, saying that what he did was good, or I endorse any of those things. And yeah, I think he belongs in prison for what he did; let's be very clear on this. But I personally did not have a business relationship with him. I am, however, Ubiquiti's customer. And after—whether it was an insider threat or whether it was someone external breaching them, Krebs On Security wound up doing a whole write-up on this and was single-sourcing some stuff from the person who it turned out, did this.And they made a lot of hay about this. They sued him at one point via some terrible law firm that's entire brand is suing media companies. And yeah, just wonderful, wonderful optics there and brilliant plan. But I don't care about the sourcing. I don't care about the exact accuracy of the reporting because what I'm seeing here is that what is not disputed is this person, who whether they were an employee or not was beside the point, deleted all of the audit logs and then as a customer of Ubiquiti, I received an email saying, “We have no indication or evidence that any customer data was misappropriated.” Yeah, you just turn off your logs and yeah, you could say that always and forever and save money on logging costs. [unintelligible 00:03:28] best practice just dropped, I guess. Clowns.Chris: So, yeah. And there's definitely, like, compliance and standards and everything else that say you turn on your logs and you protect your logs, and service control policies should have been able to detect that. If they had a security operations center, you know, the fact that somebody was using root keys should have been setting off red flags and causing escalations to occur. And that wasn't happening.Corey: My business partner and I have access to our AWS org, and when I was setting this stuff up for what we do here, at a very small company, neither of us can log in with root credentials without alarms going off that alert the other. Not that I don't trust the man; let's be very clear here. We both own the company.Chris: In business together. Yes.Corey: Ri—exactly. It is, in many ways, like a marriage in that one of us can absolutely ruin the other without a whole lot of effort. But there's still the idea of separation of duties, visibility into what's going on, and we don't use root API keys. Let me further point out that we are not pushing anything that requires you to send data to us. We're not providing a service that is software powered to people, much less one that is built around security. So, how is it that I have a better security posture than Ubiquiti?Chris: You understand AWS and in-depth cloud better. You know, it really comes down to how do you, as an AWS customer, understand all of the moving parts, all of the security tooling, all of the different ways that something can happen. And Amazon will say, “Well, it's in the documentation,” but you know, they have, what, 357 services? Are you reading the security pages of all of those? So, user education, I agree, you should have, and I have on all of my accounts, if anything pops up, if any IAM change happens, I'm getting text messages. Which is great if my account got compromised, but is really annoying when I'm actually making a change and my phone is blowing up.Corey: Yeah. It's worth pointing out as well that yes, Ubiquiti is publicly traded—that is understood and accepted—however, 93% of it is owned by their CEO-founder god-king. So, it is effectively one person's personal fiefdom. And I tend to take a very dim view as a direct result. When you're in cloud and you have suffered a breach, you have severely screwed something up somewhere. These breaches are never, “Someone stole a whole bunch of drives out of an AWS data center.” You have misconfigured something somewhere. And lashing out at people who reported on it is just a bad look.Chris: Definitely. Only error—now, of course, part of the problem here is that our legal system encourages people to not come forward and say, “I screwed up. Here's how I screwed up. Everybody come learn from my mistakes.” The legal professions are also there to manage risk for the company and they're like, “Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't even tell the government. Don't say anything.”Whereas we all need to learn from these errors. Which is why I think every time I do see a breach or I do see an indictment, I start diving into it to learn more. I did a blog post on some of the things that happened with Drizly and GitHub, and you know, I think the most interesting thing that came out of Drizly case was the ex-CEO of Drizly, who was CEO at the time of the breach, now has following him, for the rest of his life, an FTC order that says he must implement a security program wherever he goes and works. You know, I don't know what happens when he becomes a Starbucks barista or whatever, but that is on him. That is not on the company; that is on him.And I do think that, you know, we will start seeing more and more chief executive officers, chief security or information security officers becoming accountable to—or for the breaches and being personally accountable or professionally accountable for it. I think we kind of need it, even though, you know, there's only so much a CISO can do.Corey: One of the things that I did when I started consulting independently on AWS bills back in 2016 was, while I was looking at customer environments, I also would do a quick check for a few security baseline things. And I stopped doing it because I kept encountering a bunch of things that needed attention and it completely derailed the entire stated purpose of the engagement. And, frankly, I don't want to be running a security consultancy. There's a reason I focus on AWS bills. And people think I'm kidding, but I swear to you I'm not, when I say that the reason is in part because no one has a middle-of-the-night billing emergency. It is strictly a business-hours problem. Whereas with security, wake up.In fact, the one time I have been woken up in the middle of the night by a customer phone call, they were freaking out because it was a security incident and their bill had just pegged through the stratosphere. It's, “Cool. Fix the security problem first, then we'll worry about the bill during business hours. Bye.” And then I stopped leaving my phone off of Do Not Disturb at night.Chris: Your AWS bill is one of your indicators of compromise. Keep an eye on it.Corey: Oh, absolutely. We've had multiple engagements discover security issues on that. “So, what are these instances in Australia doing?” “We don't have anything there.” “I believe you're being sincere when you say this.”Chris: Yes.Corey: However.Chris: “Last month, you're at $1,000 and this month, you're at $50,000. And oh, by the way, it's the ninth, so you might want to go look at that.”Corey: Here's the problem that you start seeing in large-scale companies though. You or I wind up posting our IAM credentials on GitHub somewhere in public—and I do this from time to time, intentionally with absolutely no permissions attached to a thing—and I started look at the timeline of, “Okay 3, 2, 1, go,” with the push and now I start counting. What happens? At what time does the quarantine policy apply? When do I get an email alert? When do people start trying to exploit it? From where are they trying to exploit it?It's a really interesting thing to look into, just from the position of how this stuff all fits together and works. And that's great, but there's a whole ‘nother piece to it where if you or I were to do such a thing and actually give it admin credentials, okay, my, I don't know, what, $50, $100 a month account that I use for a lot of my test stuff now starts getting charged enormous piles of money that winds up looking like a mortgage in San Francisco, I'm going to notice that. But if you have a company that spending, I don't know, between ten and $20 million a month, do you have any idea how much Bitcoin you've got to be mining in that account to even make a slight dent in the overall trajectory of those accounts?Chris: In the overall bill, a lot. And in a particularly mismanaged account, my experience is you will notice it if you're monitoring billing anomalies on a per-account basis. I think it's important to note, you talked about that quarantine policy. If you look at what actually Amazon drops a deny on, it's effectively start EC2 instances and change IAM policies. It doesn't prevent anybody from listing all your buckets and exfiltrating all your data. It doesn't prevent anybody from firing up Lambdas and other less commonly used resources. Don't assume oh, Amazon dropped the quarantine policy. I'm safe.Corey: I was talking to somebody who spends $4 a month on S3 and they wound up suddenly getting $60 grand a day and Lambda charges, because max out the Lambda concurrency in every region and set it to mine crypto for 15 minutes apiece, yeah, you'll spend $60,000 a day to get, what $500 in crypto. But it's super economical as long as it's in someone else's account. And then Amazon hits them with a straight face on these things, where, “Please pay the bill.” Which is horrifying when there's several orders of magnitude difference between your normal bill and what happens post-breach. But what I did my whole post on “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” followed by “17 More Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” and [unintelligible 00:12:00] about three services away from having a third one ready to go on that, the point is not, “Too many ways to run containers,” because yes, that is true and it's also amusing to me—less so to the containers team at AWS which does not have a sense of humor or sense of self-awareness of which they have been alerted—and fine, but every time you're running a container, it is a way to turn it into a crypto mining operation, in some way shape or form, which means there are almost 40-some-odd services now that can reasonably be used to spin up cryptocurrency mining. And that is the best-case breach scenario in a bunch of ways. It costs a bunch of money and things to clean up, but ‘we lost customer data.' That can destroy companies.Chris: Here's the worst part. Crypto mining is no longer profitable even when I've got stolen API keys because bitcoin's in the toilet. So, now they are going after different things. Actually, the most recent one is they look to see if your account is out of the SCS sandbox and if so, they go back to the tried-and-true way of doing internet scams, which is email spam.Corey: For me, having worked in operations for a very long time, I've been in situations where I worked at Expensify and had access to customer data there. I have worked in other finance companies—I worked at Blackrock. Where I work now, I have access to customer billing data. And let me be serious here for a second, I take all of these things seriously, but I also in all of those roles slept pretty well at night. The one that kept me up was a brief stint I did as the Director of Tech Ops at Grindr over ten years ago because unlike the stuff where I'm spending the rest of my career and my time now, it's not just money anymore.Whereas today, if I get popped, someone can get access to what a bunch of companies are paying AWS. It's scandalous, and I will be sued into oblivion and my company will not exist anymore and I will have a cloud hanging over my head forever. So, I have to be serious about it—Chris: But nobody will die.Corey: Nobody dies. Whereas, “Oh, this person is on Grindr and they're not out publicly,” or they live in a jurisdiction where that is punishable by imprisonment or death, you have blood on your hands, on some level, and I have never wanted that kind of responsibility.Chris: Yeah. It's reasonably scary. I've always been happy to say that, you know, the worst thing that I had to do was keep the Russians off CNN and my friends from downloading Rick and Morty.Corey: Exactly. It's, “Oh, heavens, you're winding up costing some giant conglomerate somewhere theoretical money on streaming subscriptions.” It's not material to the state of the world. And part of it, too, is—what's always informed my approach to things is, I'm not a data hoarder in the way that it seems our entire industry is. For the Last Week in AWS newsletter, the data that I collect and track is pretty freaking small.It's, “You want to sign up for the lastweekinaws.com newsletter. Great, I need your email address.” I don't need your name, I don't need the company you work at. You want to give me a tagged email address? Fine. You want to give me some special address that goes through some anonymizing thing? Terrific. I need to know where I'm sending the newsletter. And then I run a query on that for metrics sometimes, which is this really sophisticated database query called a count. How many subscribers do I have at any given point because that matters to our sponsors. But can we get—you give us any demographic? No, I cannot. I can't. I have people who [unintelligible 00:15:43] follow up surveys sometimes and that's it.Chris: And you're able to make money doing that. You don't have to collect, okay, you know, Chris's zip code is this and Bob's zip code is that and Frank's zip code is the other thing.Corey: Exactly.Chris: Or job titles, or you know, our mother's maiden name or anything else like that.Corey: I talk about what's going on in the world of AWS, so it sort of seems to me that if you're reading this stuff every week, either because of the humor or in spite of the humor, you probably are in a position where services and goods tied to that ecosystem would be well-received by you or one of the other 32,000 people who happen to be reading the newsletter or listening to the podcast or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's an old-timey business model. It's okay, I want to wind up selling, I don't know, expensive wristwatches. Well, maybe I'll advertise in a magazine that caters to people who have an interest in wristwatches, or caters to a demographic that traditionally buys those wristwatches. And okay, we'll run an ad campaign and see if it works.Chris: It's been traditional advertising, not the micro-targeting stuff. And you know, television was the same way back in the broadcast era, you know? You watched a particular show, people of that demographic who watched that particular show had certain advertisers they wanted.Corey: That part of the challenge I've seen too, from sponsors of this show, for example, is they know it works, but they're trying to figure out how to do any form of attribution on this. And my answer—which sounds self-serving, but it's true—is, there's no effective way to do it because every time you try, like, “Enter this coupon code,” yeah, I assure you, some of these things wind up costing millions of dollars to deploy at large companies at scale and they provide value for doing it. No one's going to punch in a coupon code to get 10% off or something like that. Procurement is going to negotiate custom contracts and it's going to be brought up maybe by someone who heard the podcast ad. Maybe it just sits in the back of their mind until they hear something and it just winds of contributing to a growing awareness of these things.You're never going to do attribution that works on things like that. People try sometimes to, “Oh, you'll get $25 in credit,” or, “We'll give you a free t-shirt if you fill out the form.” Yeah, but now you're biasing for people who find that a material motivator. When I'm debating what security suite I'm going to roll out at my enterprise I don't want a free t-shirt for that. In fact, if I get a free t-shirt and I wear that shirt from the vendor around the office while I'm trying to champion bringing that thing in, I look a little compromised.Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I am—[laugh] I got no response to that [laugh].Corey: No, no. I hear you. One thing I do want to talk about is the last time we spoke, you mentioned you were involved in getting fwd:cloudsec—a conference—off the ground. Like all good cloud security conferences, it's named after an email subject line.It is co-located with re:Inforce this year in Anaheim, California. Somewhat ominously enough, I used to live a block-and-a-half away from the venue. But I don't anymore and in fact, because nobody checks the global event list when they schedule these things, I will be on the other side of the world officiating a wedding the same day. So, yet again, I will not be at re:Inforce.Chris: That is a shame because I think you would have made an excellent person to contribute to our call for papers and attend. So yes, fwd:cloudsec is deliberately actually named after a subject line because all of the other Amazon conferences seem to be that way. And we didn't want to be going backwards and thinking, you know, past tense. We were looking forward to our conference. Yeah, so we're effectively a vendor-neutral cloud security conference. We liked the idea of being able to take the talks that Amazon PR would never allow on stage at re:Inforce and run with it.Corey: I would question that. I do want to call that out because I gave a talk at re:Invent one year about a vulnerability I found and reported, with the help of two other people, Scott Piper and Brandon Sherman, to the AWS security team. And we were able to talk about that on stage with Zack Glick, who at the time, was one of basically God's own prototypes, working over in the AWS environment next to Dan [Erson 00:19:56]. Now, Dan remains the salt of the earth, and if he ever leaves basically just short the entire US economy. It's easier. He is amazing. I digress. The point being is that they were very open about talking about an awful lot of stuff that I would never have expected that they would be okay with.Chris: And last year at re:Inforce, they had an excellent, excellent chalk talk—but it was a chalk talk, not recorded—on how ransomware attacks operate. And they actually, like, revealed some internal, very anonymized patterns of how attacks are working. So, they're starting to realize what we've been saying in the cloud security community for a while, which is, we need more legitimate threat intelligence. On the other hand, they don't want to call it threat intelligence because the word threat is threatening, and therefore, you know, we're going to just call it, you know, patterns or whatever. And our conference is, again, also multi-cloud, a concept that until recently, AWS, you know, didn't really want to acknowledge that there were other clouds and that people would use both of them [crosstalk 00:21:01]—Corey: Multi-cloud security is a nightmare. It's just awful.Chris: Yeah, I don't like multi-cloud, but I've come to realize that it is a thing. That you will either start at a company that says, “We're AWS and we're uni-cloud,” and then next thing, you know, either some rogue developer out there has gone and spun up an Azure subscription or your acquire somebody who's in GCP, or heaven forbid, you have to go into some, you know, tinhorn dictator's jurisdiction and they require you to be on-prem or leverage Oracle Cloud or something. And suddenly, congratulations, you're now multi-cloud. So yes, our goal is really to be the things that aren't necessarily onstage or aren't all just, “It's great.” Even your talk was how great the incident response and vulnerability remediation process was.Corey: How great my experience with it was at the time, to be clear. Because I also have gotten to a point where I am very aware that, in many cases when dealing with AWS, my reputation precedes me. So, when I wind up tweeting about a problem or opening a support case, I do not accept as a given that my experience is what everyone is going to experience. But a lot of the things they did made a lot of sense and I was frankly, impressed that they were willing to just talk about anything that they did internally. Because previously that had not been a thing that they did in open forums like that.Chris: But you go back to the Glue incident where somebody found a bug and they literally went and went to every single CloudTrail event going back to the dawn of the service to validate that, okay, the, only two times we ever saw this happen were between the two researcher's accounts who disclosed it. And so, kudos to them for that level of forward communication to their customers because yeah, I think we still haven't heard anything out of Azure for last year's—or a year-and-a-half ago's Wiz findings.Corey: Well, they did do a broad blog post about this that they put out, which I thought, “Okay, that was great. More of this please.” Because until they start talking about security issues and culture and the remediation thereof, I don't give a shit what they have to say about almost anything else because it all comes back to security. The only things I use Azure for, which admittedly has some great stuff; their computer vision API? Brilliant—but the things I use them for are things that I start from a premise of security is not important to that service.The thing I use it for on the soon-to-be-pivoted to Mastodon Twitter thread client that I built, it writes alt-text for images that are about to be put out publicly. Yeah, there's no security issue from that perspective. I am very hard-pressed to imagine a scenario in which that were not true.Chris: I can come up with a couple, but you know—Corey: It feels really contrived. And honestly, that's the thing that concerns me, too: the fact that I finally read, somewhat recently, an AWS white paper talking about—was it a white paper or was it blog post? I forget the exact media that it took. But it was about how they are seeing ransomware attacks on S3, which was huge because before that, I assumed it was something that was being made up by vendors to sell me something.Chris: So, that was the chalk talk.Corey: Yes.Chris: They finally got the chalk talk from re:Inforce, they gave it again at re:Invent because it was so well received and now they have it as a blog post out there, so that, you know, it's not just for people who show up in the room, they can hear it; it's actually now documented out there. And so, kudos to the Amazon security team for really getting that sort of threat intelligence out there to the community.Corey: Now, it's in writing, and that's something that I can cite as opposed to, “Well, I was at re:Invent and I heard—” Yeah, we saw the drink tab. We know what you might have thought you heard or saw at re:Invent. Give us something we can take to the board.Chris: There were a lot of us on that bar tab, so it's not all you.Corey: Exactly. And it was my pleasure to do it, to be clear. But getting back to fwd:cloudsec, I'm going to do you a favor. Whether it's an actual favor or the word favor belongs in quotes, the way that I submit CFPs, or conference talks, is optimized because I don't want to build a talk that is never going to get picked up. Why bother to go through all the work until I have to give it somewhere?So, I start with a catchy title and then three to five sentences. And if people accept it, great, then I get to build the talk. This is a forcing function in some ways because if you get a little delayed, they will not move the conference for you. I've checked. But the title of a talk that I think someone should submit for fwd:cloudsec is, “I Am Smarter Than You, so Cloud Security is Easy.”And the format and the conceit of the talk is present it with sort of a stand-it-up-to-take-it-down level of approach where you are over-confident in the fact that you are smarter than everyone else and best practices don't apply to you and so much of this stuff is just security theater designed as a revenue extraction mechanism as opposed to something you should actually be doing. And talk about why none of these things matter because you use good security and you know, it's good because you came up with it and there's no way that you could come up with something that you couldn't break because you're smart. It says so right in the title and you're on stage and you have a microphone. They don't. Turn that into something. I feel like there's a great way to turn that in a bunch of different directions. I'd love to see someone give that talk.Chris: I think Nickolas Sharp thought that too.Corey: [laugh]. Exactly. In fact, that will be a great way to bring it back around at the end. And it's like, “And that's why I'm better at security than you are. If you have any questions beyond this, you can reach me at whatever correctional institute I go in on Thursday.” Exactly. There's ways to make it fun and engaging. Because from my perspective, talks have to be entertaining or people don't pay attention.Chris: They're either entertaining, or they're so new and advanced. We're definitely an advanced cloud security practice thing. They were 500 levels. Not to brag or anything, but you know, you want the two to 300-level stuff, you can go CCJ up the street. We're hitting and going above and beyond what a lot of the [unintelligible 00:27:18]—Corey: I am not as advanced on that path as you are; I want to be very clear on this. You speak, I listen. You're one of those people when it comes to security. Because again, no one's life is hanging in the balance with respect to what I do. I am confident in our security posture here, but nothing's perfect. Everything is exploitable, on some level.It's also not my core area of focus. It is yours. And if you are not better than I am at this, then I have done something sort of strange, or so of you, in the same way that it is a near certainty—but not absolute—that I am better at optimizing AWS bills than you are. Specialists exist for a reason and to discount that expertise is the peak of hubris. Put that in your talk.Chris: Yeah. So, one talk I really want to see, and I've been threatening to give it for a while, is okay, if there's seventeen ways—or sorry, seventeen times two, soon to be seventeen times three ways to run containers in AWS, there's that many ways to exfiltrate credentials from those containers. What are all of those things? Do we have a holistic way of understanding, this is how credentials can be exfiltrated so that we then as defenders can go figure out, okay, how do we build detections and mitigations for this?Corey: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Canarytokens myself, for that exact purpose. There are many devices I have where the only credentials in plain text on disk are things that as soon as they get used, I wind up with a bunch of things screaming at me that there's been a problem and telling me where it is. I'm not saying that my posture is impenetrable. Far from it. But you're going to have to work for it a little bit harder than running some random off-the-shelf security scanner against my AWS account and finding, oops, I forgot to turn on a bucket protection.Chris: And the other area that I think is getting really interesting is, all of the things that have credentials into your Cloud account, whether it's something like CircleCI or GitHub. I was having a conversation with somebody just this morning and we were talking about Roles Anywhere, and I was like, “Roles Anywhere is great if you've got a good strong PKI solution and can keep that private certificate or that certificate you need safe.” If you just put it on a disk, like, you would have put your AKIA and secret on a desk, congratulations, you haven't really improved security. You've just gotten rid of the IAM users that are being flagged in your CSPM tool, and congratulations, you have, in fact, achieved security theater.Corey: It's obnoxious, on some level. And part of the problem is cost and security are aligned and that people care about them right after they really should have cared about them. The difference is you can beg, cry, whine, et cetera to AWS for concessions, you can raise another round of funding; there have solutions with money. But security? That ship has already sailed.Chris: Yeah. Once the data is out, the data is out. Now, I will say on the bill, you get reminded of it every month, about three or four days after. It's like, “Oh. Crap, yeah, I should have turned off that EC2 instance. I just burned $100.” Or, “Oh hey, we didn't turn off that application. I just burned $100,000.” That doesn't happen on security. Security events tend to be few and far between; they're just much bigger when they happen.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me. I'm sure I'll have you back on between now and re:Inforce slash fwd:cloudsec or anything else we come up with that resembles an email subject line. If people want to learn more and follow along with your adventures—as they should—where's the best place for him to find you these days?Chris: So, I am now pretty much living on Mastodon on the InfoSec Exchange. And my website, chrisfarris.com is where you can find the link to that because it's not just at, you know, whatever. You have to give the whole big long URL in Mastodon. It's no longer—Corey: Yeah. It's like a full-on email address with weird domains.Chris: Exactly, yeah. So, find me at http colon slash slash infosec dot exchange slash at jcfarris. Or just hit Chris Farris and follow the links. For fwd:cloudsec, we are conveniently located at fwdcloudsec.org, which is F-W-D cloud sec dot org. No colons because I don't think those are valid in whois.Corey: Excellent choice. And of course, links to that go in the [show notes 00:31:32], so click the button. It's easier. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Chris: Thank you.Corey: Chris Farris, Cloud Security Nerd at Turbot slash Turbo. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that resembles a lawsuit being filed, and then have it processed-served to me because presumably, you work at Ubiquiti.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

In this episode, Dr Irene meets Professor Chris Boardman, Musician, Composer, Educator and Public Speaker and discusses his extraordinarily remarkable life in music.  As a Composer, Musical Director, Producer, Conductor and Arranger Chris has won numerous accolades including being a 13 times nominated and 6 times BAFTA winner. As an educator and creator of CBMG Enterprises, Chris offers courses on Film, Video Game, Media and Event Music and speaks publicly of his experiences in Arts and Entertainment. He consults on matters of Education and his newest project, The Missing Link, combines an outreach program that provides new coping skills and an immersive concert experience to acknowledge the PTSD and other mental illnesses emerging from the pandemic, to instil hope for a better future for all. Dr Irene and Chris talk about music and healing mental health, his early years in music, his variety of experiences throughout his career, his hope to address mental health issues in teenagers via The Missing Link, the stress effect of the pandemic and how this new system can counteract it.  KEY TAKEAWAYS Chris' concept is to use music to generate awareness for the sufferer and their families as well as offer an experiential learning method that is not text or traditional classroom-based construction that many can use to alleviate the symptoms of anxiety or depression.  Working with iconic performers like Shirley Maclaine, Bing Crosby, Julie Andrews and Rosemary Clooney, Chris spent many years working on TV shows, variety performances, and film and production projects.  Having had to adapt to so many technological changes in the entertainment and music industry, Chris has had numerous job titles including teaching at the beginning of the social media boom and running the Commercial Music Program for The University of Miami. As a Film Music Producer, Chris' job is to create an emotional response with music. Using these techniques, alongside breathing exercises, as well as movement you can counteract the human body's response to a traumatic incident.  To reach all sufferers the type of music used in the technique is chosen and structured by the user to elicit a personal response.  Teenagers will be able to recognise a stress or panic response and use their personalised technique through their app on their phone to interrupt it.  A video based course will be available to teach the techniques behind The Missing Link and explain the criteria to self select one's own system. BEST MOMENTS ‘The main focus is to generate awareness of trauma and PTSD, how it affects the body, how it has long term lasting effects and that most people are unaware that they have symptoms.' – Chris  ‘Music has been such a huge part of my being that I realised over time that I could not ignore it, destroy it. All I could do was accept it and go with where it led me.' – Chris   ‘When I discovered two things. Teen suicide is the second leading cause of death in America of teenagers and that hundreds of suicidal teens spend the night in the emergency room because they have no place else to go.' – Chris  ‘They (teenagers) basically outsource their memory. They don't see the same need to memorise dates and places and facts and figures. That's a massive shift in the way that we learn.' – Chris  ‘Everyone is different. Not one method fits everybody and everybody has to follow the same style. It's individualised and, as you say, prescriptive to that particular person.' – Dr Irene   ‘If you are feeling suicidal or you are so angry that you are out of control because of the reaction. I mean this is what has happened to me, I've learned that with certain triggers I become enraged and it's a reflex reaction.' – Chris  ‘Music has always been my refuge and the piano has been particularly dominant in that regard.' – Chris  ‘Over time instead of the trigger being negative it will become positive with enough practice.' – Chris ‘People will respond and share if it's meaningful to them regardless of having the stamp of approval from some sort of governing body, because it's not a physical treatment. It's purely personal.' – Chris   GUEST CONTACT AND RESOURCES Website https://www.chrisboardmancourses.com/ Email contact@cbmg.enterprises VALUABLE RESOURCES Join Patreon : http://www.patreon.com/drireneching Instagram: irene.ching.777 Tiktok: @ireneching777 Youtube channel: Dr Irene Ching Twitter: @ireneching7777 Clubhouse: @ireneching1 https://www.facebook.com/irene.ching.735 LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/irene-ching-742623219 ABOUT THE HOST Dr Irene Ching is a medical practitioner who specialises in Family Medicine, Wealth and Life Coach, Property/ Business Investor, Speaker, Quantum Wealth Creation Accelerator and Podcaster : Be Happy, Healthy and Wealthy. Dr Ching speaks on health, wellness and wealth in talks, workshops and events. She has her own coaching programme on money mindset - Quantum Wealth Creation Accelerator (online course with weekly coaching). She approaches health and well-being in a holistic way and encourages people to look at all the areas of their lives. She is passionate about human potentials and helping people to reach their goals/performance peak for happiness, health and wealth. In her coaching sessions, she works with emotional freedom techniques, energy works, NLP, Intuition/ Superconscious mind, Inner child healing, Timeline therapy, Self love works, behavioural change, goal settings and money attraction healing. She has helped clients to be super money magnets to live in abundance with ease and grace by healing their money blocks, shames and guilt. She was nominated as the best speaker for Best Solutions Overview at Professional Speaker Academy 2022, nominated for The Speakers Award for Best Virtual Event 2022, and for the New Comer Award. She was nominated for The Start up of the Year Award at Queens in Business. Dr Ching is a member of the The Royal College of General Practitioners of London and a member of the Royal College of Physicians of London for many years. She has several diplomas in family planning, women's health, diabetes and coaching. She loves to motivate and encourage people to follow their passions and reach their full potential. Her motto: Reset Your Mind, Reset Your life. The podcast Be Happy Healthy and Wealthy is aimed at people who want to be high achievers who perform at their peak performance in all aspects of life. It is about how we could be happy regardless of our circumstances, and to understand the secrets to real health and wealth; especially how to live a prosperous long life. The podcast idea came about when Dr Ching was asked a lot of questions about how to live happy, healthy, wealthy lives, so she went on a journey to discover how to achieve it and the secrets to happiness, health and wealth. She has been interviewing successful entrepreneurs, keynote speakers, influencers and millionaires on this important subject. So stay tuned to get the deep dive on how to be happy, healthy and wealthy- the million dollar questions!

About Chris Chris Farris has been in the IT field since 1994 primarily focused on Linux, networking, and security. For the last 8 years, he has focused on public-cloud and public-cloud security. He has built and evolved multiple cloud security programs for major media companies, focusing on enabling the broader security team's objectives of secure design, incident response and vulnerability management. He has developed cloud security standards and baselines to provide risk-based guidance to development and operations teams. As a practitioner, he's architected and implemented multiple serverless and traditional cloud applications focused on deployment, security, operations, and financial modeling.Chris now does cloud security research for Turbot and evangelizes for the open source tool Steampipe. He is one if the organizers of the fwd:cloudsec conference (https://fwdcloudsec.org) and has given multiple presentations at AWS conferences and BSides events.When not building things with AWS's building blocks, he enjoys building Legos with his kid and figuring out what interesting part of the globe to travel to next. He opines on security and technology on Twitter and his website https://www.chrisfarris.comLinks Referenced: Turbot: https://turbot.com/ fwd:cloudsec: https://fwdcloudsec.org/ Steampipe: https://steampipe.io/ Steampipe block: https://steampipe.io/blog TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Tailscale SSH is a new, and arguably better way to SSH. Once you've enabled Tailscale SSH on your server and user devices, Tailscale takes care of the rest. So you don't need to manage, rotate, or distribute new SSH keys every time someone on your team leaves. Pretty cool, right? Tailscale gives each device in your network a node key to connect to your VPN, and uses that same key for SSH authorization and encryption. So basically you're SSHing the same way that you're already managing your network.So what's the benefit? Well, built-in key rotation, the ability to manage permissions as code, connectivity between any two devices, and reduced latency. You can even ask users to re-authenticate SSH connections for that extra bit of security to keep the compliance folks happy. Try Tailscale now - it's free forever for personal use.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Logicworks. Getting to the cloud is challenging enough for many places, especially maintaining security, resiliency, cost control, agility, etc, etc, etc. Things break, configurations drift, technology advances, and organizations, frankly, need to evolve. How can you get to the cloud faster and ensure you have the right team in place to maintain success over time? Day 2 matters. Work with a partner who gets it - Logicworks combines the cloud expertise and platform automation to customize solutions to meet your unique requirements. Get started by chatting with a cloud specialist today at snark.cloud/logicworks. That's snark.cloud/logicworksCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is someone that I have been meaning to invite slash drag onto this show for a number of years. We first met at re:Inforce the first year that they had such a thing, Amazon's security conference for cloud, as is Amazon's tradition, named after an email subject line. Chris Farris is a cloud security nerd at Turbot. He's also one of the organizers for fwd:cloudsec, another security conference named after an email subject line with a lot more self-awareness than any of Amazon's stuff. Chris, thank you for joining me.Chris: Oh, thank you for dragging me on. You can let go of my hair now.Corey: Wonderful, wonderful. That's why we're all having the thinning hair going on. People just use it to drag us to and fro, it seems. So, you've been doing something that I'm only going to describe as weird lately because your background—not that dissimilar from mine—is as a practitioner. You've been heavily involved in the security space for a while and lately, I keep seeing an awful lot of things with your name on them getting sucked up by the giant app surveillance apparatus deployed to the internet, looking for basically any mention of AWS that I wind up using to write my newsletter and feed the content grist mill every year. What are you doing and how'd you get there?Chris: So, what am I doing right now is, I'm in marketing. It's kind of a, you know, “Oops, I'm sorry I did that.”Corey: Oh, the running gag is, you work in DevRel; that means, “Oh, you're in marketing, but they're scared to tell you that.” You're self-aware.Chris: Yeah.Corey: Good for you.Chris: I'm willing to address that I'm in marketing now. And I've been a cloud practitioner since probably 2014, cloud security since about 2017. And then just decided, the problem that we have in the cloud security community is a lot of us are just kind of sitting in a corner in our companies and solving problems for our companies, but we're not solving the problems at scale. So, I wanted a job that would allow me to reach a broader audience and help a broader audience. Where I see cloud security having—you know, or cloud in general falling down is Amazon makes it really hard for you to do your side of shared responsibility, and so we need to be out there helping customers understand what they need to be doing. So, I am now at a company called Turbot and we're really trying to promote cloud security.Corey: One of the first promoted guest episodes of this show was David Boeke, your CTO, and one of the things that I regret is that I've sort of lost track of Turbot over the past few years because, yeah, one or two things might have been going on during that timeline as I look back at having kids in the middle of a pandemic and the deadly plague o'er land. And suddenly, every conversation takes place over Zoom, which is like, “Oh, good, it's like a happy hour only instead, now it's just like a conference call for work.” It's like, ‘Conference Calls: The Drinking Game' is never the great direction to go in. But it seems the world is recovering. We're going to be able to spend some time together at re:Invent by all accounts that I'm actively looking forward to.As of this recording, you're relatively new to Turbot, and I figured out that you were going there because, once again, content hits my filters. You wrote a fascinating blog post that hits on an interest of mine that I don't usually talk about much because it's off-putting to some folk, and these days, I don't want to get yelled at and more than I have to about the experience of traveling, I believe it was to an all-hands on the other side of the world.Chris: Yep. So, my first day on the job at Turbot, I was landing in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, having left the United States 24 hours—or was it 48? It's hard to tell when you go to the other side of the planet and the time zones have also shifted—and then having left my prior company day before that. But yeah, so Turbot about traditionally has an annual event where we all get together in person. We're a completely remote company, but once a year, we all get together in person in our integrate event.And so, that was my first day on the job. And then you know, it was basically two weeks of reasonably intense hackathons, building out a lot of stuff that hopefully will show up open-source shortly. And then yeah, meeting all of my coworkers. And that was nice.Corey: You've always had a focus through all the time that I've known you and all the public content that you've put out there that has come across my desk that seems to center around security. It's sort of an area that I give a nod to more often than I would like, on some level, but that tends to be your bread and butter. Your focus seems to be almost overwhelmingly on I would call it AWS security. Is that fair to say or is that a mischaracterization of how you view it slash what you actually do? Because, again, we have these parasocial relationships with voices on the internet. And it's like, “Oh, yeah, I know all about that person.” Yeah, you've met them once and all you know other than that is what they put on Twitter.Chris: You follow me on Twitter. Yeah, I would argue that yes, a lot of what I do is AWS-related security because in the past, a lot of what I've been responsible for is cloud security in AWS. But I've always worked for companies that were multi-cloud; it's just that 90% of everything was Amazon and so therefore 90% of my time, 90% of my problems, 90% of my risk was all in AWS. I've been trying to break out of that. I've been trying to understand the other clouds.One of the nice aspects of this role and working on Steampipe is I am now experimenting with other clouds. The whole goal here is to be able to scale our ability as an industry and as security practitioners to support multiple clouds. Because whether we want to or not, we've got it. And so, even though 90% of my spend, 90% of my resources, 90% of my applications may be in AWS, that 10% that I'm ignoring is probably more than 10% of my risk, and we really do need to understand and support major clouds equally.Corey: One post you had recently that I find myself in wholehearted agreement with is on the adoption of Tailscale in the enterprise. I use it for all of my personal nonsense and it is transformative. I like the idea of what that portends for a multi-cloud, or poly-cloud, or whatever the hell we're calling it this week, sort of architectures were historically one of the biggest problems in getting to clouds two speak to one another and manage them in an intelligent way is the security models are different, the user identity stuff is different as well, and the network stuff has always been nightmarish. Well, with Tailscale, you don't have to worry about that in the same way at all. You can, more or less, ignore it, turn on host-based firewalls for everything and just allow Tailscale. And suddenly, okay, I don't really have to think about this in the same way.Chris: Yeah. And you get the micro-segmentation out of it, too, which is really nice. I will agree that I had not looked at Tailscale until I was asked to look at Tailscale, and then it was just like, “Oh, I am completely redoing my home network on that.” But looking at it, it's going to scare some old-school network engineers, it's going to impact their livelihoods and that is going to make them very defensive. And so, what I wanted to do in that post was kind of address, as a practitioner, if I was looking at this with an enterprise lens, what are the concerns you would have on deploying Tailscale in your environment?A lot of those were, you know, around user management. I think the big one that is—it's a new thing in enterprise security, but kind of this host profiling, which is hey, before I let your laptop on the network, I'm going to go make sure that you have antivirus and some kind of EDR, XDR, blah-DR agents so that you know we have a reasonable thing that you're not going to just go and drop [unintelligible 00:09:01] on the network and next thing you know, we're Maersk. Tailscale, that's going to be their biggest thing that they are going to have to figure out is how do they work with some of these enterprise concerns and things along those lines. But I think it's an excellent technology, it was super easy to set up. And the ability to fine-tune and microsegment is great.Corey: Wildly so. They occasionally sponsor my nonsense. I have no earthly idea whether this episode is one of them because we have an editorial firewall—they're not paying me to set any of this stuff, like, “And this is brought to you by whatever.” Yeah, that's the sponsored ad part. This is just, I'm in love with the product.One of the most annoying things about it to me is that I haven't found a reason to give them money yet because the free tier for my personal stuff is very comfortably sized and I don't have a traditional enterprise network or anything like that people would benefit from over here. For one area in cloud security that I think I have potentially been misunderstood around, so I want to take at least this opportunity to clear the air on it a little bit has been that, by all accounts, I've spent the last, mmm, few months or so just absolutely beating the crap out of Azure. Before I wind up adding a little nuance and context to that, I'd love to get your take on what, by all accounts, has been a pretty disastrous year-and-a-half for Azure security.Chris: I think it's been a disastrous year-and-a-half for Azure security. Um—[laugh].Corey: [laugh]. That was something of a leading question, wasn't it?Chris: Yeah, no, I mean, it is. And if you think, though, back, Microsoft's repeatedly had these the ebb and flow of security disasters. You know, Code Red back in whatever the 2000s, NT 4.0 patching back in the '90s. So, I think we're just hitting one of those peaks again, or hopefully, we're hitting the peak and not [laugh] just starting the uptick. A lot of what Azure has built is stuff that they already had, commercial off-the-shelf software, they wrapped multi-tenancy around it, gave it a new SKU under the Azure name, and called is cloud. So, am I super-surprised that somebody figured out how to leverage a Jupyter notebook to find the back-end credentials to drop the firewall tables to go find the next guy over's Cosmos DB? No, I'm not.Corey: I find their failures to be less egregious on a technical basis because let's face it, let's be very clear here, this stuff is hard. I am not pretending for even a slight second that I'm a better security engineer than the very capable, very competent people who work there. This stuff is incredibly hard. And I'm not—Chris: And very well-funded people.Corey: Oh, absolutely, yeah. They make more than I do, presumably. But it's one of those areas where I'm not sitting here trying to dunk on them, their work, their efforts, et cetera, and I don't do a good enough job of clarifying that. My problem is the complete radio silence coming out of Microsoft on this. If AWS had a series of issues like this, I'm hard-pressed to imagine a scenario where they would not have much more transparent communications, they might very well trot out a number of their execs to go on a tour to wind up talking about these things and what they're doing systemically to change it.Because six of these in, it's like, okay, this is now a cultural problem. It's not one rando engineer wandering around the company screwing things up on a rotational basis. It's, what are you going to do? It's unlikely that firing Steven is going to be your fix for these things. So, that is part of it.And then most recently, they wound up having a blog post on the MSRC, the Microsoft Security Resource Center is I believe that acronym? The [mrsth], whatever; and it sounds like a virus you pick up in a hospital—but the problem that I have with it is that they spent most of that being overly defensive and dunking on SOCRadar, the vulnerability researcher who found this and reported it to them. And they had all kinds of quibbles with how it was done, what they did with it, et cetera, et cetera. It's, “Excuse me, you're the ones that left customer data sitting out there in the Azure equivalent of an S3 bucket and you're calling other people out for basically doing your job for you? Excuse me?”Chris: But it wasn't sensitive customer data. It was only the contract information, so therefore it was okay.Corey: Yeah, if I put my contract information out there and try and claim it's not sensitive information, my clients will laugh and laugh as they sue me into the Stone Age.Chris: Yeah well, clearly, you don't have the same level of clickthrough terms that Microsoft is able to negotiate because, you know, [laugh].Corey: It's awful as well, it doesn't even work because, “Oh, it's okay, I lost some of your data, but that's okay because it wasn't particularly sensitive.” Isn't that kind of up to you?Chris: Yes. And if A, I'm actually, you know, a big AWS shop and then I'm looking at Azure and I've got my negotiations in there and Amazon gets wind that I'm negotiating with Azure, that's not going to do well for me and my business. So no, this kind of material is incredibly sensitive. And that was an incredibly tone-deaf response on their part. But you know, to some extent, it was more of a response than we've seen from some of the other Azure multi-tenancy breakdowns.Corey: Yeah, at least they actually said something. I mean, there is that. It's just—it's wild to me. And again, I say this as an Azure customer myself. Their computer vision API is basically just this side of magic, as best I can tell, and none of the other providers have anything like it.That's what I want. But, you know, it almost feels like that service is under NDA because no one talks about it when they're using this service. I did a whole blog post singing its praises and no one from that team reached out to me to say, “Hey, glad you liked it.” Not that they owe me anything, but at the same time it's incredible. Why am I getting shut out? It's like, does this company just have an entire policy of not saying anything ever to anyone at any time? It seems it.Chris: So, a long time ago, I came to this realization that even if you just look at the terminology of the three providers, Amazon has accounts. Why does Amazon have Amazon—or AWS accounts? Because they're a retail company and that's what you signed up with to buy your underwear. Google has projects because they were, I guess, a developer-first thing and that was how they thought about it is, “Oh, you're going to go build something. Here's your project.”What does Microsoft have? Microsoft Azure Subscriptions. Because they are still about the corporate enterprise IT model of it's really about how much we're charging you, not really about what you're getting. So, given that you're not a big enterprise IT customer, you don't—I presume—do lots and lots of golfing at expensive golf resorts, you're probably not fitting their demographic.Corey: You're absolutely not. And that's wild to me. And yet, here we are.Chris: Now, what's scary is they are doing so many interesting things with artificial intelligence… that if… their multi-tenancy boundaries are as bad as we're starting to see, then what else is out there? And more and more, we is carbon-based life forms are relying on Microsoft and other cloud providers to build AI, that's kind of a scary thing. Go watch Satya's keynote at Microsoft Ignite and he's showing you all sorts of ways that AI is going to start replacing the gig economy. You know, it's not just Tesla and self-driving cars at this point. Dali is going to replace the independent graphics designer.They've got things coming out in their office suite that are going to replace the mom-and-pop marketing shops that are generating menus and doing marketing plans for your local restaurants or whatever. There's a whole slew of things where they're really trying to replace people.Corey: That is a wild thing to me. And part of the problem I have in covering AWS is that I have to differentiate in a bunch of different ways between AWS and its Amazon corporate parent. And they have that problem, too, internally. Part of the challenge they have, in many cases, is that perks you give to employees have to scale to one-and-a-half million people, many of them in fulfillment center warehouse things. And that is a different type of problem that a company, like for example, Google, where most of their employees tend to be in office job-style environments.That's a weird thing and I don't know how to even start conceptualizing things operating at that scale. Everything that they do is definitionally a very hard problem when you have to make it scale to that point. What all of the hyperscale cloud providers do is, from where I sit, complete freaking magic. The fact that it works as well as it does is nothing short of a modern-day miracle.Chris: Yeah, and it is more than just throwing hardware at the problem, which was my on-prem solution to most of the things. “Oh, hey. We need higher availability? Okay, we're going to buy two of everything.” We called it the Noah's Ark model, and we have an A side and a B side.And, “Oh, you know what? Just in case we're going to buy some extra capacity and put it in a different city so that, you know, we can just fail from our primary city to our secondary city.” That doesn't work at the cloud provider scale. And really, we haven't seen a major cloud outage—I mean, like, a bad one—in quite a while.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate. Is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other; which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability: it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: The outages are always fascinating, just from the way that they are reported in the mainstream media. And again, this is hard, I get it. I am not here to crap on journalists. They, for some ungodly, unknowable reason, have decided not to spend their entire career focusing on the nuances of one very specific, very deep industry. I don't know why.But as [laugh] a result, they wind up getting a lot of their baseline facts wrong about these things. And that's fair. I'm not here to necessarily act as an Amazon spokesperson when these things happen. They have an awful lot of very well-paid people who can do that. But it is interesting just watching the blowback and the reaction of whatever there's an outage, the conversation is never “Does Amazon or Azure or Google suck?” It's, “Does cloud suck as a whole?”That's part of the reason I care so much about Azure getting their act together. If it were just torpedoing Microsoft's reputation, then well, that's sad, but okay. But it extends far beyond that to a point where it's almost where the enterprise groundhog sees the shadow of a data breach and then we get six more years of data center build-outs instead of moving things to a cloud. I spent too many years working in data centers and I have the scars from the cage nuts and crimping patch cables frantically in the middle of the night to prove it. I am thrilled at the fact that I don't believe I will ever again have to frantically drive across town in the middle of the night to replace a hard drive before the rest of the array degrades. Cloud has solved those problems beautifully. I don't want to go back to the Dark Ages.Chris: Yeah, and I think that there's a general potential that we could start seeing this big push towards going back on-prem for effectively sovereign data reasons, whether it's this country has said, “You cannot store your data about our citizens outside of our borders,” and either they're doing that because they do not trust the US Silicon Valley privacy or whatever, or because if it's outside of our borders, then our secret police agents can come knocking on the door at two in the morning to go find out what some dissidents' viewings habits might have been, I see sovereign cloud as this thing that may be a back step from this ubiquitous thing that we have right now in Amazon, Azure, and Google. And so, as we start getting to the point in the history books where we start seeing maps with lots of flags, I think we're going to start seeing a bifurcation of cloud as just a whole thing. We see it already right now. The AWS China partition is not owned by Amazon, it is not run by Amazon, it is not controlled by Amazon. It is controlled by the communist government of China. And nobody is doing business in Russia right now, but if they had not done what they had done earlier this year, we might very well see somebody spinning up a cloud provider that is completely controlled by and in the Russian government.Corey: Well, yes or no, but I want to challenge that assessment for a second because I've had conversations with a number of folks about this where people say, “Okay, great. Like, is the alt-right, for example, going to have better options now that there might be a cloud provider spinning up there?” Or, “Well, okay, what about a new cloud provider to challenge the dominance of the big three?” And there are all these edge cases, either geopolitically or politically based upo—or folks wanting to wind up approaching it from a particular angle, but if we were hired to build out an MVP of a hyperscale cloud provider, like, the budget for that MVP would look like one 100 billion at this point to get started and just get up to a point of critical mass before you could actually see if this thing has legs. And we'd probably burn through almost all of that before doing a single dime in revenue.Chris: Right. And then you're doing that in small markets. Outside of the China partition, these are not massively large markets. I think Oracle is going down an interesting path with its idea of Dedicated Cloud and Oracle Alloy [unintelligible 00:22:52].Corey: I like a lot of what Oracle's doing, and if younger me heard me say that, I don't know how hard I'd hit myself, but here we are. Their free tier for Oracle Cloud is amazing, their data transfer prices are great, and their entire approach of, “We'll build an entire feature complete region in your facility and charge you what, from what I can tell, is a very reasonable amount of money,” works. And it is feature complete, not, “Well, here are the three services that we're going to put in here and everything else is well… it's just sort of a toehold there so you can start migrating it into our big cloud.” No. They're doing it right from that perspective.The biggest problem they've got is the word Oracle at the front end and their, I would say borderline addiction to big-E enterprise markets. I think the future of cloud looks a lot more like cloud-native companies being founded because those big enterprises are starting to describe themselves in similar terminology. And as we've seen in the developer ecosystem, as go startups, so do big companies a few years later. Walk around any big company that's undergoing a digital transformation, you'll see a lot more Macs on desktops, for example. You'll see CI/CD processes in place as opposed to, “Well, oh, you want something new, it's going to be eight weeks to get a server rack downstairs and accounting is going to have 18 pages of forms for you to fill out.” No, it's “click the button,” or—Chris: Don't forget the six months of just getting the financial CapEx approvals.Corey: Exactly.Chris: You have to go through the finance thing before you even get to start talking to techies about when you get your server. I think Oracle is in an interesting place though because it is embracing the fact that it is number four, and so therefore, it's like we are going to work with AWS, we are going to work with Azure, our database can run in AWS or it can run in our cloud, we can interconnect directly, natively, seamlessly with Azure. If I were building a consumer-based thing and I was moving into one of these markets where one of these governments was demanding something like a sovereign cloud, Oracle is a great place to go and throw—okay, all of our front-end consumer whatever is all going to sit in AWS because that's what we do for all other countries. For this one country, we're just going to go and build this thing in Oracle and we're going to leverage Oracle Alloy or whatever, and now suddenly, okay, their data is in their country and it's subject to their laws but I don't have to re-architect to go into one of these, you know, little countries with tin horn dictators.Corey: It's the way to do multi-cloud right, from my perspective. I'll use a component service in a different cloud, I'm under no illusions, though, in doing that I'm increasing my resiliency. I'm not removing single points of failure; I'm adding them. And I make that trade-off on a case-by-case basis, knowingly. But there is a case for some workloads—probably not yours if you're listening to this; assume not, but when you have more context, maybe so—where, okay, we need to be across multiple providers for a variety of strategic or contextual reasons for this workload.That does not mean everything you build needs to be able to do that. It means you're going to make trade-offs for that workload, and understanding the boundaries of where that starts and where that stops is going to be important. That is not the worst idea in the world for a given appropriate workload, that you can optimize stuff into a container and then can run, more or less, anywhere that can take a container. But that is also not the majority of most people's workloads.Chris: Yeah. And I think what that comes back to from the security practitioner standpoint is you have to support not just your primary cloud, your favorite cloud, the one you know, you have to support any cloud. And whether that's, you know, hey, congratulations. Your developers want to use Tailscale because it bypasses a ton of complexity in getting these remote island VPCs from this recent acquisition integrated into your network or because you're going into a new market and you have to support Oracle Cloud in Saudi Arabia, then you as a practitioner have to kind of support any cloud.And so, one of the reasons that I've joined and I'm working on, and so excited about Steampipe is it kind of does give you that. It is a uniform interface to not just AWS, Azure, and Google, but all sorts of clouds, whether it's GitHub or Oracle, or Tailscale. So, that's kind of the message I have for security practitioners at this point is, I tried, I fought, I screamed and yelled and ranted on Twitter, against, you know, doing multi-cloud, but at the end of the day, we were still multi-cloud.Corey: When I see these things evolving, is that, yeah, as a practitioner, we're increasingly having to work across multiple providers, but not to a stupendous depth that's the intimidating thing that scares the hell out of people. I still remember my first time with the AWS console, being so overwhelmed with a number of services, and there were 12. Now, there are hundreds, and I still feel that same sense of being overwhelmed, but I also have the context now to realize that over half of all customer spend globally is on EC2. That's one service. Yes, you need, like, five more to get it to work, but okay.And once you go through learning that to get started, and there's a lot of moving parts around it, like, “Oh, God, I have to do this for every service?” No, take Route 53—my favorite database, but most people use it as a DNS service—you can go start to finish on basically everything that service does that a human being is going to use in less than four hours, and then you're more or less ready to go. Everything is not the hairy beast that is EC2. And most of those services are not for you, whoever you are, whatever you do, most AWS services are not for you. Full stop.Chris: Yes and no. I mean, as a security practitioner, you need to know what your developers are doing, and I've worked in large organizations with lots of things and I would joke that, oh, yeah, I'm sure we're using every service but the IoT, and then I go and I look at our bill, and I was like, “Oh, why are we dropping that much on IoT?” Oh, because they wanted to use the Managed MQTT service.Corey: Ah, I start with the bill because the bill is the source of truth.Chris: Yes, they wanted to use the Managed MQTT service. Okay, great. So, we're now in IoT. But how many of those things have resource policies, how many of those things can be made public, and how many of those things are your CSPM actually checking for and telling you that, hey, a developer has gone out somewhere and made this SageMaker notebook public, or this MQTT topic public. And so, that's where you know, you need to have that level of depth and then you've got to have that level of depth in each cloud. To some extent, if the cloud is just the core basic VMs, object storage, maybe some networking, and a managed relational database, super simple to understand what all you need to do to build a baseline to secure that. As soon as you start adding in on all of the fancy services that AWS has. I re—Corey: Yeah, migrating your Step Functions workflow to other cloud is going to be a living goddamn nightmare. Migrating something that you stuffed into a container and run on EC2 or Fargate is probably going to be a lot simpler. But there are always nuances.Chris: Yep. But the security profile of a Step Function is significantly different. So, you know, there's not much you can do there wrong, yet.Corey: You say that now, but wait for their next security breach, and then we start calling them Stumble Functions instead.Chris: Yeah. I say that. And the next thing, you know, we're going to have something like Lambda [unintelligible 00:30:31] show up and I'm just going to be able to put my Step Function on the internet unauthenticated. Because, you know, that's what Amazon does: they innovate, but they don't necessarily warn security practitioners ahead of their innovation that, hey, you're we're about to release this thing. You might want to prepare for it and adjust your baselines, or talk to your developers, or here's a service control policy that you can drop in place to, you know, like, suppress it for a little bit. No, it's like, “Hey, these things are there,” and by the time you see the tweets or read the documentation, you've got some developer who's put it in production somewhere. And then it becomes a lot more difficult for you as a security practitioner to put the brakes on it.Corey: I really want to thank you for spending so much time talking to me. If people want to learn more and follow your exploits—as they should—where can they find you?Chris: They can find me at steampipe.io/blog. That is where all of my latest rants, raves, research, and how-tos show up.Corey: And we will, of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:31:37]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Chris: Perfect, thank you. You have a good one.Corey: Chris Farris, cloud security nerd at Turbot. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry insulting comment, and be sure to mention exactly which Azure communications team you work on.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

What you'll learn in this episode: How your location affects SEO, and why firms in major metros need to market differently than rural or suburban firms How traditional advertising and brand building can complement SEO What end-to-end SEO is, and why Chris' company does nothing but SEO How long you can expect to work with an SEO firm before seeing results Why it's better to not do SEO at all than do it halfheartedly About Chris Dreyer Chris Dreyer is the CEO and Founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency that helps elite personal injury law firms land serious injury and auto accident cases through Google's organic search results. His company has the distinction of making the Inc. 5000 list four years in a row. Chris's journey in legal marketing has been a saga, to say the least. A world-ranked collectible card game player in his youth, Chris began his “grown up” career with a History Education degree and landed a job out of college as a detention room supervisor. The surplus of free time in that job allowed him to develop a side hustle in affiliate marketing, where (at his apex) he managed over 100 affiliate sites simultaneously, allowing him to turn his side gig into a full-time one. When his time in affiliate marketing came to an end, he segued into SEO for attorneys, while also having time to become a top-ranked online poker player. Today, Chris is the CEO and founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency specializing in elite personal injury law firms and 4x consecutive member of the Inc. 5000. In addition to owning and operating Rankings, Chris is a real estate investor and podcast host, as well as a member of the Forbes Agency Council, the Rolling Stone Culture Council, Business Journals Leadership Trust, Fast Company Executive Board, and Newsweek Expert Forum. Chris's first book, Niching Up: The Narrower the Market, the Bigger the Prize, is slated for release in late 2022. Additional Resources Chris Dreyer LinkedIn Rankings.io Twitter Rankings.io Facebook Rankings.io Instagram Transcript: SEO is a complicated beast. If you want to conquer it, you have to go in ready to swing, according to Chris Dreyer. As CEO of Rankings.io, Chris specializes in working with personal injury lawyers and law firms to get them on the first page of Google in competitive markets. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how the “proximity factor” affects Google rankings; why your content is the first area to target if you want to improve your rankings; and how SEO, digital marketing and traditional advertising all work together to build your brand. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Chris Dreyer, CEO of Rankings.io. His firm specializes in working with elite personal injury firms, helping them to generate auto accident and other cases involving serious personal injury. He does this through Google's organic keyword search rankings which, to me, is quite a challenge. This is a very competitive market, and it's one that requires a very healthy budget if you're going to be successful. Today, Chris is going to tell us about his journey and some of what he's learned along the way. Chris, welcome to the program. Chris: Sharon, thanks so much for having me. Sharon: Great to have you. Tell us about your career path. You weren't five years old saying this is what you wanted to do. Chris: I've always been an entrepreneur. I saw my uncle. My uncle's a very successful business CEO for many organizations. He's had a really interesting career path. I told my parents before I went to college that no matter what I got a degree in, I was going to start and own my business at one point, and they were on the same page. I ended up getting a history education degree. I was a teacher, and I was working in a detention room when I typed in “how to make money online,” probably the worst query you could possibly type in. But I found a basic course that taught me the fundamentals of digital marketing and I pursued that. By the end of my second year teaching, I was making about four times the amount from that than I got from teaching. So, I went all in and did some affiliate marketing. I had some ups and downs with that. Then I went and worked for another agency and rose to their lead consultant. Then I had an epiphany and thought, “I think I can do this myself. I think I can do it better,” and that's what I did. That's when I started. At the time, it was attorney rankings. Sharon: Wow! Had you played around with attorney rankings before, when you were a teacher and just typing away? Chris: When I worked for this digital agency that's no longer in business, they were a generalist agency, but they worked with many law firms and attorneys. I was their lead account manager. I just enjoyed working with them. I enjoyed the competition and the satisfaction I would get from ranking a site in a more competitive vertical. That's how I chose legal. I wanted to look for something that had a longstanding business. I didn't want to jump into something fast or tech-related that could be changing all the time; I wanted something with a little bit more longevity. Sharon: Did you ever want to be a lawyer yourself? Chris: I ask that to myself all the time. I think about it now, mainly because of all the relationships I have, how easy it could be for a referral practice. We have our own agency and I know how to generate leads now. So, I ask myself that a lot. That's a 2½ to 3-year commitment. You never know; I may end up getting my degree. Sharon: There are a lot of history majors who went into law and then probably decided they wanted to do something else, so that's a great combination you have. It's Rankings.io. What's the .io? Chris: There are these new top-level domain extensions. There are .org, .net, .com. Now you see stuff like .lawyer or .red. There are all kinds of different categories of those domains. Tech companies frequently use .io, standing for “input” and “output.”  How I look at it, or how I make the justification for it, is that if you invest in us, you get cases—input/output. Sharon: Can you make up your own top level or is there a list somewhere? Chris: There's a big list. GoDaddy and NameSheet.com have many of them. In legal specifically, there's .law, there's . attorney, there's .lawyer, I believe even .legal. Most industries have their own top-level domain extension now. Sharon: I've seen .io, but I never knew what it stood for. You don't see it that often. I happened to be Googling somebody in Ireland the other day. Most of the places were using .com, but this was using .ie, and I thought, “What is .ie?” but it turns out it was Ireland. Tell us a little about your business. What kinds of clients do you have? Is there seasonality? Chris: We help personal injury attorneys. We primarily work with personal injury law firms that are midsize to large. Typically not solo practitioners and new firms, but more established firms trying to break into major markets in metropolitan areas, your Chicagos, your Philadelphias, your bigger cities that have a lot of competition. We've been around since 2013. We don't work with a high volume of clients because our investments are higher, because to rank in these big cities takes a lot of quantitative actions, a lot of production. We currently work with around 45 to 50 firms, and that's what we do. We do search engine optimization for personal injury law firms. Sharon: Search engine optimization for personal injury law firms. To me, that seems like a lot. It's great. Are these typically smaller firms that are in—I don't know—Podunk, Iowa, and they say, “I want to go to the big city”? Is that what happens? Chris: Typically, it's one of two things. It's either a TV, radio, traditional advertiser that wants to focus more on digital that has a larger investment. They have more capital to invest. Or, it's someone that wants to get creative and focus on digital to try to take market share away from the big TV advertisers. Most of the time it's individuals in big cities because there are tons of personal injury attorneys. Right now, I'm in Marion, Illinois. There's a handful of attorneys. Most of them aren't focused on marketing. Just by the nature of having a practice, they typically show up in the Map Pack. That's not the case in Chicago. You actually have to aggressively market to show up on the first page of Google. Sharon: If somebody's already spending a lot of money on TV or radio or billboards in Chicago, are your clients people who have turned around and said, “I can do better if I put this money all into digital and rankings.” Does that happen? Chris: I personally am not an “or.” I'm an “and.” You did TV? Well, let's also do SEO. Let's also do pay-per-click. I like the omnichannel approach. I think there are two types of marketing. There is lead generation and direct response. That's your pay-per-click, your SEO, things like that. Then there's demand generation and brand building. The thing about demand generation and brand building is they actually complement direct response, and you can get lower cost per acquisition. To give you an example, if you're a big TV advertiser and have an established brand, and someone types something into Google, you may capture that click because they recognize your company as opposed to someone that isn't as known. I think they all work together. Of course, we're always playing the attention arbitrage game. We want to go to the locations where our money can carry the most weight to get us the most attention. For example, right now, individuals are going to TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts because there isn't the same amount of competition there. That's where a lot of tension and competition are occurring. It's a constant game, and it's something to be apprised of and aware of what's going on. Sharon: Is that something you also do in terms of rankings? Do you do TikTok or Instagram or anything like that, or Google My Business? Is it all of those? Chris: We use that ourselves to market our business because we're omnichannel, but for our clients, we focus solely on design and SEO. That's simply because we have intense focus and expertise in those areas. We want to be the best in the world and really dialed in to all the fundamental changes that occur. But knowing that limitation, knowing that there is more effort and sacrifice if someone wants to come to us because we don't do everything, we like to be aware of who is providing services in those other areas. Who's the best at pay-per-click, who's the best at social media. We try to make it as easy as possible to get our clients help in those areas too. Sharon: How do you keep up with everything? There are so many different things. Chris: Obsession. I think of it as a game. I always tell people that running a digital agency is like a game that pays me. I truly believe that, because I enjoy what I do. I don't love the quote that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. I don't believe that's completely true, but I don't have the same stressors and I enjoy what I do. So, that's an obsession. Sharon: So that's dinner-table talk. Chris: Oh, yeah. Sharon: What keeps you attracted to attorneys? A lot of people say, “O.K., I've had it.” What keeps you attracted? Chris: I think they're providing a good service to the common individual and fighting against big insurance companies. Generally, they get a bad rap, particularly personal injury attorneys. They're referred to as ambulance chasers. Sometimes individuals get creative, and they refer to me and our agency as an ambulance-chaser chaser. But in general, they're the plaintiffs; they're trying to help individuals that have been injured. I think where they get a bad rap is sometimes people are banging down their doors and soliciting them right after they're injured or in the hospital bed. Other times, you'll see these big billboards where it's like, “How could you possibly put that up on a billboard?” There's a complete lack of EQ or empathy. It's like, “Congratulations. You just lost a leg. Contact us,” or “Congratulations. Someone's seriously hurt.” It's just the wrong messaging. That's where they get a bad rap, but the overwhelming majority are truly trying to provide value and help these injured victims. Sharon: Do you ever work with defense firms or law firms that aren't personal injury? Chris: That's a good question. Our focus and expertise is personal injury, and what I tell other businesses and my peers is that it gives us optionality. If I think we can help a law firm and we can serve them and continue to provide extreme value, we will selectively take those opportunities. Right now we have about 45 clients, and I think three of them aren't personal injury law firms. It just happened to be the perfect prospect for us. They were in competitive markets. They had these clearly defined goals and brands, and we wanted to help them. Sharon: How about other legal services, like—I forget; I think it's Legal Voice or something like that. If it's a graphics firm that does graphics for trials, do you work with that kind of firm? Chris: We've worked with some. I can't think of any specifically. I would say our business is more focused on the front end, the marketing and awareness side, and less on the sales intake or operations side. Operations would be your trials and customer service and things like that. At this point in time, we're focused solely on lead generation, and that's an issue upon itself. Our job is to overwhelm the sales department. Intake is a whole different ballgame. Sometimes intake has to be addressed, but it's not us. We have referrals that we give for that. Sharon: Do you work with only lawyers, or do you work with marketing directors at these firms? Who are you typically working with? Chris: Most of the time it's the lead attorney. There are some firms that have a CMO or a marketing manager, but I would say that's the minority. When they get a CMO, typically it's at your higher eight-figure or nine-figure firms, and they will start to bring these services in-house. So, most of the time it's still the lead attorney. Sharon: You used a term I hadn't heard before, end-to-end SEO. What does that mean? Chris: It's a great question. A lot of digital agencies that are full-service, they'll offer design and social and PPC. They have a very narrow span of control, meaning you get assigned a SEO specialist, and that SEO specialist is supposed to be able to write content, optimize your site, do your local SEO, do your link building. Look, I don't believe in unicorns. I don't think people have the skillset to do all of those. So, when I say end-to-end, we have a dedicated content department with writers; we have a dedicated, on-site SEO and technical department to optimize your site; we have a dedicated local department that only works with local maps and helps you on the Map Pack; we have a dedicated link-building department. It's the full spectrum of SEO as opposed to getting these generalists, where maybe they're good at one thing and not good at the other things. Sharon: Do you think your market understands the term end-to-end SEO? Chris: Probably not. I probably should work on the copyrighting a little bit, but I do like to make that distinction. Even though we're specialists and do only SEO, you can take it a step farther. If you look at how we staff, everybody's a SEO specialist, as opposed to it being an add-on or backend service. Sharon: The Map Pack, is that where you have the top three local firms on a map near you, when you search “Starbucks near me” or “Personal injury firm near me”? I say Starbucks because we did that last weekend. I know things are always changing, but if it's a one- or two-person personal injury firm and they don't have the budget you're talking about, can they do anything themselves? What do you recommend? Chris: That's a good question. If you don't have a budget, try to scrape your budget together and get a website made the easiest way you can, whether it's a WordPress site or a template. That's your main conversion point. Try to get your practice area pages and your sales pages created as an outlet for conversions. If you don't have a big budget and you're in a metropolitan area, I would encourage you to look at other opportunities to generate business, potentially on-the-ground, grassroots business development practices where you're making relationships with other attorneys. That can carry a lot of weight and get you started. SEO is a zero-sum game. Either you rank in the top positions or you don't, and if you don't, you're not going to get the clicks. If you're on the second page of Google, you might as well be on the 90th page. No one goes to page two. So, if you're going to do SEO, you can't just dip your toe into it. You've got to go in ready to swing and ready to do the quantitative actions to get results. Otherwise, you might as well not do it at all. You might as well choose a different channel. Sharon: That's interesting. So, if you Google your firm and find you're on the second page, should you just give it up and say, “O.K., I'm not going to do anything in this area”? Chris: If you're working with an SEO agency and you're on the second page of Google, I would tell you to—well, first of all, depending upon the length of time you've been with them, if you've given them sufficient time, then I would say you probably need a different SEO agency. If you are on the second page of Google and you're not doing SEO, that's O.K. You could still rank for your brand, your firm name, particularly some of the attorney names, the name of their company. There are probably not going to be many of those. You're probably going to rank for that. I would find a different way to generate leads. It may even mean working for someone else to generate revenue before you go in and start your own practice. Sharon: So, being a lawyer in a law firm first and getting your feet wet that way. You mentioned something about the length of time. How long should you give a firm before you say, “O.K., thanks”? Chris: I'm going to give the lawyer answer here. It depends. If you've been doing SEO for a long time and you have a tremendous amount of links and content, it could be a technical SEO coding issue, maybe a site architecture issue. Maybe you need as little as 90 days to truly make a huge impact. We just took on a client in Florida that had a tremendous amount of links, a tremendous amount of content. We literally just unclogged the sink, so to speak, and they're skyrocketing in a short amount of time. If you're in a major market and you just got your website built and you don't have links, it's going to take some time. All of these SEO specialists will say it takes six months. That's completely untrue. It's based upon the gap. What are you benchmarking against? What does the data show? It could be nine months; it could be 14 months based upon the quantitative actions you're taking. If you don't take the correct quantitative actions, you could be treading water, too. So, it really depends. You can see results quickly. It just depends on where you're at in your state for your firm. Sharon: Since you work with attorneys, I'm sure more than once you've heard, “Chris, I've waited three months. What's going on? How long do I have to wait? We're pouring money into this.” What's your response? Chris: That's a great question. We try to set those expectations on the front end before we even sign them as a client, but occasionally those situations will slip through. Maybe we didn't have those conversations enough or they weren't clear enough. We have a series in our onboarding called “Teach Our Clients Not to Be Crazy.” I'm being really transparent here. Clients become crazy when expectations were not set. If they're set in the front end when we sign them and it's part of our onboarding processes, we say, “This is how long it's going to take to get results.” We're not three months down the road getting that, because we already told them on the front end this is how long it will take. The same for your operation processes like content or reporting. You report our meeting cadences, your communication preferences, all these things. We do that in our “Teach Our Clients Not to Be Crazy.” That's the biggest issue. Most individuals don't have those expectations set well enough on the front end. Sharon: So, you basically say, “It depends. I don't know. We'll have to see. We have to look at your website.” Do you start usually by looking at the site architecture? Do you change—I forget what you call it—the headings at the top of the page, things that are searchable? Chris: We have a very thorough diagnostic that uses a lot of data from different APIs, Ahrefs, and other tools that help us with benchmarking and setting these goals and KPIs. We look at three primary pillars. We'll look at their content to see if it's targeting keywords properly, if it's well-written, if they're missing content. We'll look at their architecture, like you said, to see if the information is easily accessible, if they can Google the website and the consumer can find the information they're looking for, if it loads quickly. Then we will look at their backlink profile to see if they have enough endorsements. If you're trying to win an election, you want to get as many votes as possible. If you're trying to win the first page of Google, you want to get as many high-quality links as possible. So, we'll take a look at that too. There are a lot of subcategories to those, but those are the big, top-level things we look at. Sharon: Of course, we're a PR firm and we do a lot of PR, a lot of article writing for the media. We've had SEO companies say, “I want to see the article before you post it. I want to pump it up, add words, delete words.” Do you do things like that, or is that more on the PR side? Chris: I'll be transparent. I don't love it because it hurts things from a throughput perspective and getting it to the end. It's a bottleneck. It delays things. We do heavy, up-front analysis of the content to try to identify voice and their style. We go through a style guide and try to identify their taglines. It's very cumbersome up front. Then we try to get their permission to not do the approval process. Not everyone will allow us to do that, but we like to say it delays us. If we're an SEO agency and we write 40 articles a month, and if the client takes a month to approve them, we don't have any content to market. So, we try to avoid that when we can. Sharon: Yeah, lawyers didn't go to law school for SEO; they went to be lawyers. Chris: And I think there's this perception where they think everybody in the world is going to see the content. We can publish the content then make edits post-production. I know that's a bit different from what you do, Sharon, with PR, but for us, we can control and make changes. You see something you don't like, we'll just change it. Sharon: How important is money? You emphasize that in your own marketing. There's always a debate with personal injury firms. Do people care about warm fuzzies, or do they care about your wins? What do you look at? Chris:   That's a deep question. I'm a big fan of Naval Ravikant, and he talks about— Sharon: I'm sorry, who? Chris: Naval Ravikant. He talks about people's motivations based upon status or wealth. Status is a zero-sum game; there's a winner and a loser. A lot of attorneys love trial because there's a winner and a loser. Sports is a zero-sum game. So, there's status orientation. Then there's wealth. Wealth is not a zero-sum game. Many individuals can be wealthy. So, it depends on their demeanor. I think some of them are more status-oriented and want to be the heavy-hitting trial attorneys and peacock and be the man, but then there are others that don't care. They'll let the other individuals shine and they're more wealth oriented. You see this a lot in society. Individuals will choose to go against common things, but they're doing it because it's a status play. It brings them status to be against the big billionaires or whoever. That's a whole different conversation we'll probably want to avoid, but that's the way I see it. Sharon: Do you basically stick with the marketing they have? If they call you in to do SEO and you look at their website and messaging, do you stick with that or do you recommend a change? Chris: We absolutely will make recommendations if we see an opportunity to help them. Ultimately, if they're signing more cases, it helps us; we have more opportunities to do different SEO for different locations, for retention, for security. Individuals that are living and dying by each lead are the ones that are emailing you every single day, “Where are my leads? Where are my leads?” We just try to do the best. If we think we have excellent rankings, and maybe they don't have the correct copywriting or positioning conversion points, we'll absolutely make recommendations for branding or anything that can help them. Sharon: Have you ever let a client go because they were too anxious or they wouldn't listen to you, or you thought, “This is not going to work”? Chris: Yeah, I wouldn't say very frequently, but absolutely. We've done it a couple of times this year under different circumstances. At the end of the day, your team has to feel welcome and hungry and motivated to work on your client. I want to have a culture where people enjoy their work. Sometimes we've had individuals that weren't respectful or the best from the culture perspective. Look, at the end of the day, it's not worth it. I know our employees really appreciate that we have their back when those situations occur. When you take care of your employees, they're going to take care of your clients. Sharon: Another question, one that's important to me. I'm not sure I understand it, but how can you work with a client in more than one market? Can you only work with one law firm that wants auto cases in Philadelphia? If client B comes and says, “I want auto cases in Philadelphia,” can you do that? What do you do? Chris: That's a great question that has been debated on and on in the SEO community. What I'll tell you is that radio and TV own the distribution rights. They already own the distribution. For SEO, it's determined based upon proximity. I'll give you an example, and then I'm going to circle this around. If you go on vacation to St. Louis and you type “best restaurants near me” in your phone, you're going to see restaurants nearest your proximity. You're not going to see them 10 miles away or 20 miles away. In some situations, if you have a big market, let's say Houston, you could, in theory, have multiple clients in Houston. You could have one downtown, one in the northeast, and there will not be a true conflict because of the proximity factor. Having said that, I personally have given up on trying to educate our clients on this because, at the end of the day, it's what they feel. So, we only take one per market now. In the past, I was very resistant to it because of the proximity. We've done our own data studies, but the SEO industry itself, it's perceived as a snake oil salesman. Any time I would try to educate about proximity, it's like they have earmuffs, and they're like, “Oh, another snake oil salesman.” So, I've basically given up. It's what they want; it's their perception, so we just take one per market. Sharon: Let me make sure I understand. Are you saying you think it could be done, but your client doesn't want that? Chris: Yes, that was what I was circling around to. Because the Map Pack, which is the best virtual real estate we talk about, after about one mile, your rankings start to deplete based upon your physical location. One of the biggest things I see attorneys do wrong is they'll have an office in Orlando or Houston, and they'll think about going to an entirely different city. They don't understand there's a big portion of their market that's not covered just because of the location where their office is. It may be better to actually open a second office in the same city than to go to an entirely new city based upon proximity. Sharon: Physical offices may not be the same today as it was a few years ago, but the law firms that advertise will advertise 20 different locations. What location do you use? The main location? Chris: First, I'll say all attorney listings are supposed to follow Google's guidelines. Google's guidelines state that the office has to have staff during your regularly stated hours. That's the big one that most don't do. It has to have signage. It has to be an actual brick-and-mortar with an office space. It can't be a shared office. You'll see a lot of fake satellite offices. Technically, they're violating Google's guidelines. So, when we say they should expand, we tell them to follow the book. Get a lease. Make sure it's staffed. Have proof of that. Have signage. Have business cards so if there's any question, here's the proof. That's the way to do it by the book. There are many firms that do not do it by the book, but again, we can educate them as to the best ways to do things. Then it's their choice on how they proceed. Sharon: I can see them saying, “That's nice, Chris. O.K., thanks.” There are people listening today who are going to get off the phone and go look at their website and say, “What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong?” What are the things they should look at right away, the top three things to evaluate whether this is going to work for SEO? Chris: I would say read your content first. Does the content answer consumer intent? Do you think it would answer your customer's pains? Is it well-written? Is it formatted well? Can they find the information they're looking for? That's where I would start. Looking at things like links, you need to use diagnostic tools. You need third-party assistance or someone that really understands that. So, I would pay close attention to your website, to your content. Read it and make sure everything's covered thoroughly. That's where I would start. Sharon: Can you set SEO and then leave it for a few months? If you get things up and running, can you just— Chris: In major metros, typically, you cannot. In most of the major metros, all SEO agencies are an in-house team that is constantly foot on the pedal, doing more content, more links, more Google reviews, or eventually you'll lose market share. In smaller markets, you may be able to create a big enough gap where you don't have to touch it as frequently. Maybe there are only a few firms. You can get a big runway ahead of them. But in most markets, it's a constant game. It's not set and forget it. Sharon: Do people ask you, “Should I add YouTube?” or “Should I link my YouTube? Should I link my podcast or blog?” I know you have a blog. Should those all be linked, and does that help? Chris: Yes and no. I'm trying not to get too confusing for the audience. In general, I would tell the audience to create a link if it can serve the consumer, if you're trying to transition or build brand awareness. I know you're aware of this, Sharon, because of what you do for PR. A lot of times, the links are not followed, and they won't contribute or pass equity. A lot of press release sites, a lot of media news sites, don't pass authority back to your site. Is it still a good reason to include a link? Yes, because you could transition a consumer to your website. It could still convert. Is it going to help SEO? Maybe. The traffic might help, but will the link pass authority? Maybe not. Should you link your social assets and directories and things like this? Absolutely. Are they going help improve your rankings? Maybe. Maybe they will; maybe they won't. Sharon: Is your team constantly Googling your clients? Is it constantly evaluating them? When you say diagnostics, what are you looking for? Are they doing Google Analytics? I don't know exactly what it is. Chris: Yeah, we do. We have several tools that track rankings. Rankings are one of those leading indicators. Just because you have great rankings doesn't mean it's going to generate cases. It's more predictive. So, we look at leading indicators. There's one we look at as an agency. I'm not aware of another agency that does. It's referred to as Ahrefs traffic value, and basically this number shows the amount of money you'd have to spend on pay-per-click to get the same amount for organic. We measure that on a weekly basis. If we see it increase, great. Our rankings and visibility are improving. If we see a decrease, them something happened. It allows us to take action more quickly on a weekly basis than by looking at your Google Analytics traffic or goals and conversions on a monthly basis, which is more a lagging indicator. We look at a lot of KPIs. We look at leading end lagging. Sharon: You mentioned pay-per-click and social before. You don't do social. Do you do pay-per-click? Do you incorporate that, or is that totally separate? Chris: That would be a situation where we have a few strategic partners we can highly recommend. We work very well with them from a communications standpoint. We feel we're the best in the world of SEO. We try to find the best in the world of pay-per-click and these other services and let our clients work with those individuals. Sharon: That's interesting to me, because I always think of pay-per-click as part of SEO in a sense. There are so many perspectives on SEO. Should you focus on this? Should you focus on linking everything? Should you focus on YouTube? That's why it's always changing. What are your thoughts about something like that? Chris: Again, I'm a big omnichannel person, so I think there are a lot of different places where individuals congregate and hang out. They could hang out on Facebook; now that audience is depleted, so let's go to Instagram. Now that audience is depleted and it's going to TikTok or YouTube. I think you need to do it all. The difference between pay-per-click and SEO in my eyes is with pay-per-click, you're leasing visibility. The moment you quit bidding, you're gone. It's great. You can get that visibility immediately. With SEO, you're creating a library so people can pull these books from the shelves when they have a certain query. The more content and queries and keywords you target, the bigger your library is, the more opportunities there are for consumers to find you. I look at it more as an asset as opposed to a leasing situation or a liability perspective. That's the way I look at it for SEO. It just gets better with time. Still today, even though there are all these different mediums, it's still one of the best costs per conversion, costs per acquisition. With pay-per-click, the amount per click has exponentially increased. Now, we're looking at $300, $600 per click. Facebook ads have gotten more expensive, and you're not seeing yourself on the organic feed as much as you used to. It's more pay to play, but we still see a lot of value in SEO. Sharon: I would think it would be foundational in the long term. No matter what else is coming, you are still going to need that. Do you work with your clients on the intake process? What if you're generating these leads and they're blowing it when somebody calls? Chris: We secret shop them. We secret shop our clients. We listen to calls. There's nothing worse than when we generate leads and the phone's not answered or calls aren't returned. It's our job to overwhelm the sales department. The moment we get any insights to where sales could be improved, we make those recommendations because it impacts us. We can generate a thousand leads, but if they're not getting assigned, we're going to get fired because they're not making money. Sharon: How are you tracking that? Do you work with people inside for that to work? Chris: Yes. There are certain CRMs we recommend. There are a few consultants we recommend. There are even outsourced intake services we recommend for all those scenarios. It depends based upon the type of firm. There are some firms that are settlement firms, so they don't do a lot of litigation. They're really high-volume. Then there are litigating firms, where maybe their case criteria are super high and they don't do volume. The way you staff those sales teams is different, so it depends based upon our recommendations. Sharon: Going to back to what you were saying before about working only with personal injury firms, I would think they're not scared off by big marketing budgets or the big numbers you might be throwing around. When you read the Wall Street Journal, they're spending millions of dollars on stuff like this. I don't know if you find that. Chris: They're not afraid to spend money; I'll say that. It is definitely increasing in most major markets. You're not going to do TV in most markets for less than $50,000 a month. Pay-per-click, you're not doing that for less than $10,000 typically. There's big money in personal injury because there's a lot of opportunity. There are a lot of different insurances and big insurance companies. It's a behemoth that takes advantage of a lot of consumers, so they definitely invest a lot. Sharon: Chris, I really appreciate your being here today because this is, to me, foundational. It's not going away no matter what comes. Thank you so much for sharing all your expertise with us. If things ever change with SEO, we'll have you back. Thank you so much. Chris: Awesome. Sharon, thanks so much for having me.

Natural disaster movies, anyone? It's what Steph's been into, and Chris has THOUGHTS on the drilling in Armageddon. Additionally, a chat around RuboCop RSpec rules happens, and they answer a listener's question, "how do you get acquainted with a new code base?" This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Greenland (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7737786/) Geostorm (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1981128/) San Andreas (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2126355/) Armageddon (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120591/) This episode is brought to you by Airbrake (https://airbrake.io/?utm_campaign=Q3_2022%3A%20Bike%20Shed%20Podcast%20Ad&utm_source=Bike%20Shed&utm_medium=website). Visit Frictionless error monitoring and performance insight for your app stack. Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild, and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow, and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix all of them today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all of the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. So I've been watching more movies lately. So evenings aren't always great; I don't always feel good being around 33 weeks pregnant now. Evenings I can be just kind of exhausted from the day, and I just need to chill and prop my feet up and all that good stuff. And I've been really drawn to natural disaster like end-of-the-world-type movies, and I'm not sure what that says about me. But it's my truth; it's where I'm at. [chuckles] I watched Greenland recently, which I really enjoyed. I feel like they ended it well. I won't share any spoilers, but I feel like they ended it well. And they didn't take an easy shortcut out that I kind of thought that they might do, so that one was enjoyable. Geostorm, I watched that one just last night. San Andreas, I feel like that's one that I also watched recently. So yeah, that's what's new in my world, you know, your typical natural disaster end-of-the-world flicks. That's my new evening hobby. CHRIS: I feel like I haven't heard of any of the three that you just listed, which is wild to me because this is a category that I find enthralling. STEPH: Well, definitely start with Greenland. I feel like that one was the better of the three that I just mentioned. I don't know Geostorm or San Andreas which one you would prefer there. I feel like they're probably on par with each other in terms of like you're there for entertainment. We're not there to judge and be hypercritical of a storyline. You're there purely for the visual effects and for the ride. CHRIS: Gotcha. Interesting. So quick question then, since this seems like the category you're interested in, Armageddon or Deep Impact? STEPH: Ooh, I'm going to have to walk through the differences because I always get those mixed up. Armageddon is where they take Bruce Willis up to an asteroid, and they have to drill and drop a nuke, right? CHRIS: They sure do. STEPH: [laughs] And then what's Deep Impact about? I guess the fact that I know Armageddon better means I'm favoring that one. I can't place what...how does Deep Impact go? CHRIS: Deep Impact is just there's an asteroid coming, and it's the story and what the people do. So it's got less...it doesn't have the same pop. I believe Armageddon was a Michael Bay movie. And so it's got that Michael Bay special bit of something on it. But the interesting thing is they came out the same year; I want to say. It's one of those like Burger King and McDonald's being right next door to each other. It's like, what are you doing there? Why are you...like, asteroid devastation movies two of you at the same time, really? But yeah, Armageddon is the correct answer. Deep Impact is like a fine movie, but Armageddon is like, all right, we're going to have a movie about asteroids. Let's really go for it. Blow it out. Why not? STEPH: Yeah, I'm with you. Armageddon definitely sticks out in my memory, so I'd vote that one. Also, for your other question that you didn't ask, but you kind of implicitly asked, I'm going to go McDonald's because Burger King fries are trash, and also, McDonald's has better ice cream cones. CHRIS: Okay, so McDonald's fries. Oh no, I was thinking Wendy's, get a frosty from there, and then you make that combination because the frostys are great. STEPH: Oh yeah, that's a good combo. CHRIS: And you need the french fries to go with it, but then it's a third option that I'm introducing. Also, this wasn't a question, but I want to loop back briefly to Armageddon because it's an important piece of cinema. There's a really great...like it's DVD commentary, and it's Ben Affleck talking with Michael Bay about, "Hey, so in the movie, the premise is that the only way to possibly get this done is to train a bunch of oil drillers to be astronauts. Did we consider it all just having some astronauts learn to do oil drilling?" And Michael Bay's response is not safe for radio is how I would describe it. But it's very humorous hearing Ben Affleck describe Michael Bay responding to that. STEPH: I think they addressed that in the movie, though. They mentioned like, we're going to train them, but they're like, no, drilling is such an art and a science. There's no way. We don't have time to teach these astronauts how to drill. So instead, it's easier to teach them to be astronauts. CHRIS: Right. That is what they say in the movie. STEPH: [laughs] Okay. CHRIS: But just spending a minute teasing that one apart is like, being an astronaut is easy. You just sit in the spaceship, and it goes, boom. [laughs] It's like; actually, there's a little bit more to being an astronaut. Yes, drilling is very subtle science and art fusion. But the idea that being an astronaut [laughs] is just like, just push the go-to space button, then you go to space. STEPH: The training montage is definitely better if we get to watch people learn how to be astronauts than if we watch people learn how to drill. [laughs] So that might have also played a role. CHRIS: No question, it is the correct cinematic choice. But whether or not it's the true answer...say we were actually faced with this problem, I don't know that this is exactly how it would play out. STEPH: I think we should A/B test it. We'll have one group train to be drill experts and one group train to be astronauts, and we'll send them both up. CHRIS: This is smart. That's the way you got to do it. The one other thing that I'm going to go...you know what really grinds my gears? In the movie Armageddon, they have this robotic vehicle thing, the armadillo; I believe it's called. I know more than I thought I would remember about this movie. [chuckles] Anyway, continuing on, the armadillo, the vehicle that they use to do the drilling, has the drill arm on it that extends out and drills down into the asteroid. And it has gears on the end of it. It has three gears specifically. And the first gear is intermeshed with the second gear, which is intermeshed with the third gear, which is intermeshed with the first gear, so imagine which direction the first gear is turning, then imagine the second gear turning, then imagine the third gear turning. They can't. It's a physically impossible object. One tries to turn clockwise, and the other one is trying to go counterclockwise, and they're intermeshed. So the whole thing would just cease up. It just doesn't work. I've looked at it a bunch of times, and I want to just be wrong about this. I want to be like; I don't know what's going on. But I think the gears on the drilling machine just fundamentally at a very simple mechanical level cannot work. And again, if you're going to do it, really go for it, Michael Bay. I kind of like that, and I really hate it at the same time. STEPH: I have never noticed this. I'm intrigued. You know what? Maybe Armageddon will be the movie of choice tonight. [chuckles] Maybe that's what I'm going to watch. And I'm going to wait for the armadillo to come out so I can evaluate the gears. And I'm highly amused that this is the thing that grinds your gears are the gears on the armadillo. CHRIS: Yeah. I was a young child at the time, and I remember I actually went to Disney World, and I saw they had the prop vehicle there. And I just kind of looked up at it, and I was like, no, that's not how gears work. I may have been naive and wrong as a child, and now I've just anchored this memory deep within me. In a similar way, so I had a moment while traveling; actually, that reminded me of something that I said on a recent podcast episode where I was talking about names and pronunciation. And I was like, yeah, sometimes people ask me how to pronounce my name. And I can't imagine any variation. That was the thing I was just wrong about because 'Toomay' is a perfectly reasonable pronunciation of my name that I didn't even think... I was just so anchored to the one truth that I know in the world that my name is Toomey. And that's the only possible way anyone could pronounce it. Nope, totally wrong. So maybe the gears in Armageddon actually work really, really well, and maybe I'm just wrong. I'm willing to be wrong on the internet, which I believe is the name of the first episode that we recorded with you formally as a co-host. [chuckles] So yeah. STEPH: Yeah, that sounds true. So you're going to change the intro? It's now going to be like, and I'm Chris 'Toomay'. CHRIS: I might change it each time I come up with a new subtle pronunciation. We'll see. So far, I've got two that I know of. I can't imagine a third, but I was wrong about one. So maybe I'm wrong about two. STEPH: It would be fun to see who pays attention. As someone who deeply values pronouncing someone's name correctly, oh my goodness, that would stress me out to hear someone keep pronouncing their name differently. Or I would be like, okay, they're having fun, and they don't mind how it gets pronounced. I can't remember if we've talked about this on air but early on, I pronounced my last name differently for like one of the first episodes that we recorded. So it's 'Vicceri,' but it could also be 'Viccari'. And I've defaulted at times to saying 'Viccari' because people can spell that. It seems more natural. They understand it's V-I-C-C-A-R-I. But if I say 'Vicceri', then people want to add two Rs, or they want a Y. I don't know why it just seems to have a difference. And so then I was like, nope, I said it wrong. I need to say it right. It's 'Vicceri' even if it's more challenging for people. And I think Chad Pytel had just walked in at that moment when I was saying that to you that I had said my name differently. And he's like, "You can't do that." And I'm like, "Well, I did it. It's already out there in the world." [laughs] But also, I'm one of those people that's like, Viccari, 'Vicceri' I will accept either. In a slightly different topic and something that's going on in my world, there was a small win today with a client team that I really appreciated where someone brought up the conversation around the RuboCop RSpec rules and how RuboCop was fussing at them because they had too many lines in their test example. And so they're like, well, they're like, I feel like I'm competing, or I'm working against RuboCop. RuboCop wants me to shorten my test example lines, but yet, I'm not sure what else to do about it. And someone's like, "Well, you could extract more into before blocks and to lets and to helpers or things like that to then shorten the test. They're like, "But that does also work against readability of the test if you do that." So then there was a nice, short conversation around well, then we really need more flexibility. We shouldn't let the RuboCop metrics drive us in this particular decision when we really want to optimize for readability. And so then it was a discussion of okay, well, how much flexibility do we add to it? And I was like, "Well, what if we just got rid of it? Because I don't think there's an ideal length for how long your test should be. And I'd rather empower test authors to use all the space that they need to show their test setup and even lean into duplication before they extract things because this codebase has far more dry tests than they do duplication concerns. So I'd rather lean into the duplication at this point." And the others that happened to be in that conversation were like, "Yep, that sounds good." So then that person issued a PR that then removed the check for that particular; how long are the examples? And it was lovely. It was just like a nice, quick win and a wonderful discussion that someone had brought up. CHRIS: Ooh, I like that. That sounds like a great conversation that hit on why do we have this? What are the trade-offs? Let's actually remove it. And it's also nice that you got to that place. I've seen a lot of folks have a lot of opinions in the past in this space. And opinions can be tricky to work around, and just deeply, deeply entrenched opinions is the thing that I find interesting. And I think I'm increasingly in the space of those sort of, thou shalt not type linter rules are not ideal in my mind. I want true correctness checks that really tell some truth about the codebase. Like, we still don't have RuboCop on our project at Sagewell. I think that's true. Yeah, that's true. We have ESLint, but it's very minimal, what we have configured. And they more are in the what we deem to be true correctness checks, although that is a little bit of a blurry line there. But I really liked that idea. We turn on formatters. They just do the thing. We're not allowed to discuss the formatting, with the exception of that time that everybody snuck in and switched my 80-line length to a 120-line length, but I don't care. I'm obviously not still bitter about it. [chuckles] And then we've got a very minimal linting layer on top of that. But like TypeScript, I care deeply, and I think I've talked in previous episodes where I'm like, dial up the strictness to 14 because TypeScript tends to tell me more truths I find, even though I have to jump through some hoops to be like TypeScript, I know that this is fine, but I can't prove it. And TypeScript makes me prove it, which I appreciate about it. I also really liked the way you referred to RSpec's feedback to you was that RSpec was fussing at you. That was great. I like that. I'm going to internalize that. Whenever a linter or type system or anything like that when they tell me no, I'm going to be like, stop fussing, nope, nope. [chuckles] STEPH: I don't remember saying that, but I'm going to trust you that that's what I said. That's just my true southern self coming through on the mic, fussing, and then go get a biscuit, and it'll just be a delightful day. CHRIS: So if I give RuboCop a biscuit, it will stop fussing at me, potentially? STEPH: No, the biscuit is just for you. You get fussed at; you go get a biscuit. It makes you feel better, and then you deal with the fussing. CHRIS: Sold. STEPH: Fussing and cussing, [laughs] that's most of my work life lately, fussing and cussing. [laughs] CHRIS: And occasional biscuits, I hope. STEPH: And occasional biscuits. You got it. But that's what's new in my world. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: Let's see. In my world, it's a short week so far. So recording on Wednesday, Monday was a holiday. And I was out all last week, which very much enjoyed my vacation. It was lovely. Went over to Europe, hung out there for a bit, some time in Paris, some time in Amsterdam, precious little time on a computer, which is very rare for me. So it was very enjoyable. But yeah, back now trying to just get back into the swing of things. Thankfully, this turned out to be a really great time to step away from the work for a little while because we're still in this calm before the storm but in a good way is how I would describe it. We have a major facet of the Sagewell platform that we are in the planning modes for right now. But we need to get a couple of different considerations, pick a partner vendor, et cetera, that sort of thing. So right now, we're not really in a position to break ground on what we know will be a very large body of work. We're also not taking on anything else too big. We're using this time to shore up a lot of different things. As an example, one of the fun things that we've done in this period of time is we have a lot of webhooks in the app, like a lot of webhooks coming into the app, just due to the fact that we're an integration of a lot of services under the hood. And we have a pattern for how we interact with and process, so we actually persist the webhook data when they come in. And then we have a background job that processes and watch our pattern to make sure we're not losing anything and the ability to verify against our local version, and the remote version, a bunch of different things. Because turns out webhooks are critical to how our app works. And so that's something that we really want to take very seriously and build out how we work with that. I think we have eight different webhook integrations right now; maybe it's more. It's a lot. And with those, we've implemented the same pattern now eight times; I want to say. And in squinting at it from a distance, we're like; it is indeed identically the same pattern in all eight cases or with the tiniest little variation in one of them. And so we've now accepted like, okay, that's true. So the next one of them that we introduced, we opted to do it in a generic way. So we introduced the abstraction with the next iteration of this thing. And now we're in a position...we're very happy with what we ended up with there. It's like the best of all of the other versions of it. And now, the plan will be to slowly migrate each of the existing ones to be no longer a unique special version of webhook processing but use the generic webhook processing pattern that we have in the app. So that's nice. I feel good about how long we waited as well because it's like, we have webhooks. Let's introduce the webhook framework to rule them all within our app. It's like, no, wait until you see. Check and make sure they are, in fact, the same and not just incidental duplication. STEPH: I appreciate that so much. That's awesome. That sounds like a wonderful use of that in-between state that you're in where you still got to make progress but also introduce some refactoring and a new concept. And I also appreciate how long you waited because that's one of those areas where I've just learned, like, just wait. It's not going to hurt you. Just embrace the duplication and then make sure it's the right thing. Because even if you have to go in and update it in a couple of places, okay, sure, that feels a little tedious, but it feels very safe too. If it doesn't feel safe...I could talk myself back and forth on this one. If it doesn't feel safe, that's a different discussion. But if you're going through and you have to update something in a couple of different places, that's quick. And sure, you had to repeat yourself a little bit, but that's fine. Versus if you have two or three of something and you're like, oh, I immediately must extract. That's probably going to cause more pain than it's worth at this point. CHRIS: Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And we did get to that place where we were starting to feel a tiny bit of pain. We had a surprising bit of behavior that when we looked at it, we were like, oh, that's interesting, because of how we implemented the webhook pattern, this is happening. And so then we went to fix it, but we were like, oh, it would actually be really nice to have this fixed across everything. We've had conversations about other refinements, enhancements, et cetera; that we could do in this space. That, again, would be really nice to be able to do holistically across all of the different webhook integration things that we have. And so it feels like we waited the right amount of time. But then we also started to...we're trying to be very responsive to the pressure that the system is pushing back on us. As an aside, the crispy Brussels snack hour and the crispy Brussels work lunch continue to be utterly fantastic ways in which we work. For anyone that is unfamiliar or hasn't listened to episodes where I rambled about those nonsense phrases that I just said, they're basically just structured time where the engineering team at Sagewell looks at and discusses higher-level architecture, refactoring, developer experience, those sort of things that don't really belong on the core product board. So we have a separate place to organize them, to gather them. And then also, we have a session where we vote on them, decide which ones feel important to take on but try and make sure we're being intentional about how much of that work we're taking on relative to how much of core product work and try and keep sort of a good ratio in between the two. And thus far, that's been really fantastic and continues to be, I think, really effective. And also the sort of thing that just keeps the developer team really happy. So it's like, I'm happy to work in this system because we know we have a way to change it and improve it where there's pain. STEPH: I like the idea of this being a game show where it's like refactor island, and everybody gets together and gets to vote which refactor stays or gets booted off the island. I'm also going to go back and qualify something I said a moment ago, where if something feels safe in terms of duplication, where it starts to feel unsafe is if there's like an area that you forgot to update because you didn't realize it's duplicated in several areas and then that causes you pain. Then that's one of those areas where I'll start to say, "Okay, let's rethink the duplication and look to dry this up." CHRIS: Yep, indeed. It's definitely like a correction early on in my career and overcorrection back and trying to find that happy medium place. But as an aside, just throwing this out there, so webhooks are an interesting space. I wish it were a more commoditized offering of platforms. Every vendor that we're integrating with that does webhooks does it slightly differently. It's like, "Oh, do you folks have retries?" They're like, "No." It's like, oh, what do you mean no? I would love it if you had retries because, I don't know, we might have some reason to not receive one of them. And there's polling, and there are lots of different variations. But the one thing that I'm surprised by is that webhook signing I don't feel like people take it serious enough. It is a case where it's not a huge security vulnerability in your app. But I was reading someone who is a security analyst at one point. And they were describing sort of, I've done tons of in-the-code audits of security practices, and here are the things that I see. And so it's the normal like OWASP Top 10 Cross-Site Request Forgery, and SQL injection, and all that kind of stuff. But one of the other ones he highlighted is so often he finds webhooks that are not verified in any way. So it's just like anyone can post data into the system. And if you post it in the right shape, the system's going to do some stuff. And there's no way for the external system to enforce that you properly validate and verify a webhook coming in, verify that payload. It's an extra thing where you do the checksum math and whatnot and take the signature header. I've seen somewhere they just don't provide it. And it's like, what do you mean you don't provide it? You must provide it, please. So it's either have an API key so that we have some way to verify that you are who you say you are or add a signature, and then we'll calculate it. And it's a little bit of a dance, and everybody does it different, but whatever. But the cases where they just don't have it, I'm like, I'm sorry, what now? You're going to say whom? But yeah, then it's our job to definitely implement that. So this is just a notice out there to anyone that's listening. If you got a bunch of webhook handling code in your app, maybe spot-check that you're actually verifying the payloads because it's possible that you're not. And that's a weird, very open hole in the side of your application. STEPH: That's a really great point. I have not worked with webhooks recently. And in the past, I can't recall if that's something that I've really looked at closely. So I'm glad you shared that. CHRIS: It's such an easy thing to skip. Like, it's one of those things that there's no way to enforce it. And so, I'd be interested in a survey that can't be done because this is all proprietary data. But what percentage of webhook integrations are unverified? Is it 50%? Is it 10%? Is it 100%? It's definitely not 100. But it's somewhere in there that I find interesting. It's not a terribly exploitable vulnerability because you have to have deep knowledge of the system. In order to take advantage of it, you need to know what endpoint to hit to, what shape of data to send because otherwise, you're probably just going to cause an error or get a bunch of 404s. But like, it's, I don't know, it's discoverable. And yeah, it's an interesting one. So I will hop off my webhook soapbox now, but that's a thought. MIDROLL AD: Debugging errors can be a developer's worst nightmare...but it doesn't have to be. Airbrake is an award-winning error monitoring, performance, and deployment tracking tool created by developers for developers, that can actually help you cut your debugging time in half. So why do developers love Airbrake? Well, it has all of the information that web developers need to monitor their application - including error management, performance insights, and deploy tracking! 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You literally have nothing to lose. So head on over to airbrake.io/try/bikeshed to create your FREE developer account today! CHRIS: But now that I'm off my soapbox, I believe we have a topic that was suggested. Do you want to provide a little bit of context here, Steph? STEPH: Yeah, I'd love to. So this came up when I was having a conversation with another thoughtboter. And given that we change projects fairly frequently, on the Boost team, we typically change projects around every six months. They asked a really thoughtful question that was "How do you get acquainted with a new codebase? So given that you're changing projects so often, what are some of the tips and tricks for ways that you've learned to then quickly get up to speed with a new codebase?" Because, frankly, that is one of the thoughtbot superpowers is that we are really good at onboarding each other and then also getting up to speed with a new team, and their processes, and their codebase. So I have a couple of ideas, and then I'd love to hear some of your thoughts as well. So I'll dive in with a couple. So the first one, this one's frankly my favorite. Like day one, if there's a team where I'm joining and they have someone that can walk me through the application from the users' perspective, maybe it's someone that's in sales, or maybe it's someone on the product team, maybe it's a recording that they've already done for other people, but that's my first and favorite way to get to know an application. I really want to know what are users experience as they're going through this app? That will help me focus on the more critical areas of the application based on usage. So if that's available, that's fabulous. I'm also going to tailor a lot of this more to like a Rails app since that's typically the type of project that I'm onboarding to. So the other types of questions that I like to find answers to are just like, what's my top-level structure? Like to look through the app and see how are things organized? Chris, you've mentioned in a previous episode where you have your client structure that then highlights all the third-party clients that you're working with. Are we using engines in the app? Is there anything that seems a bit more unique to that application that I'm going to want to brush up on or look into? What's the test coverage like? Do they have something that's already highlighting how much test coverage they have? If not, is there something that then I can run locally that will then show me that test coverage? I also really like to look at the routes file. That's one of my other favorite places because that also is very similar to getting an overview of the product. I get to see more from the user perspective. What are the common resources that people are going to, and what are the domain topics that I'm working with in this new application? I've got a couple more, but I'm going to pause there and see how you get acquainted with a new app. CHRIS: Well, unsurprisingly, I agree with all of those. We're still searching for that dare to disagree beyond Pop-Tarts and IPAs situation. To reiterate or to emphasize some of the points you made, the sales demo thing? I absolutely love that one because, yes, absolutely. What's the most customer-centric point of view that I can have? Can I then login to a staging version of the site so I can poke around and hopefully not break anything or move real money or anything like that? But understanding why is this thing, not in code, but in actual practical, observable, intractable software? Beyond that, your point about the routes, absolutely, that's one of my go-to's, although the routes there often is so much in the routes, and it's like some of those may actually be unused. So a corollary to the routes where available if there's an APM tool like Scout, or New Relic, or something like that, taking a look at that and seeing what are the heavily trafficked endpoints within this app? I like to think about it as the entry points into this codebase. So the routes file enumerates all of them, but some of them matter, and some of them don't. And so, an APM tool can actually tell you which are the ones that are seeing a ton of traffic. That's a really interesting question for me. Similarly, if we're on Heroku, I might look is there a scheduler? And if so, what are the tasks that are running in the background? That's another entry point into the app. And so I like to think about it from that idea of entry points. If it's not on Heroku, and then there's some other system, like, I've used Cronic. I think it's Cronic, Whenever the Cron thing. Whenever, that's what it is, the Whenever gem that allows you to implement that, but it's in a file within the codebase, which as an aside, I really love that that's committed and expressive in the code. Then that's another interesting one to see. If it's more exotic than that, I may have to chase it down or ask someone, but I'll try and find what are all of the entry points and which are the ones that matter the most? I can drill down from there and see, okay, what code then supports these entry points into the application? I want to give an answer that also includes something like, oh, I do fancy static analysis in the codebase, and I do a churn versus complexity graph, and I start to...but I never do that, if we're being honest. The thing that I do is after that initial cursory scan of the landscape, I try and work on something that is relatively through the layers of the app, so not like, oh, I'll fix the text in a button. But like, give me something weird and ideally, let me pair with someone and then try and move through the layers of the app. So okay, here's our UI. We're rendering in this way. The controllers are integrated in this way, et cetera. This is our database. Try and get through all the layers if possible to try and get as holistic of a view of how the application works. The other thing that I think is really interesting about what you just said is you're like, I'm going to give some answers that are somewhat specific to a Rails app. And that totally makes sense to me because I know how to answer this in the context of a Rails app because those organizational patterns are so useful that I can hop into different Rails apps. And I've certainly seen ones that I'm like, this is odd and unfamiliar to me, but most of them are so much more discoverable because of that consistency. Whereas I have worked on a number of React apps, and every single one I come into, I'm like, okay, wait, what are we doing? How are we doing state management? What's the routing like? Are we server-side rendering, are we not? And it is a thing that...I see that community really moving in the direction of finding the meta frameworks that stitch the pieces together and provide more organizational structure and answer more of the questions out of the box. But it continues to be something that I absolutely love about Rails is that Rails answers so many of the questions for me. New people joining the team are like, oh, it's a Rails app, cool. I know how to Rails, and we get to run with that. And so that's more of a pitch for Rails than an answer to the question, but it is a thing that I felt in answering this question. [laughs] But yeah, those are some thoughts. But interested, it sounds like you had some more as well. I would love to hear what else was in your mind when you were thinking about this. STEPH: I do. And I want to highlight you said some really wonderful things. One that really stuck out to me that I had not considered is using Scout APM to look at heavily-trafficked endpoints. I have that on my list in regards as something that I want to know what's my error tracking, observability. Like, if I break something or if you give me a bug ticket to work on, what am I going to use? How am I going to understand what's going wrong? But I hadn't thought of it in terms of seeing which endpoints are heavily used. So I really liked that one. I also liked how you highlighted that you wish you'd do something fancy around doing a churn versus complexity kind of graph because I thought of that too. I was like, oh, that would be such a nice answer. But the truth is I also don't do that. I think it's all those things. I think it would be fun to make it easy. So I do that with new applications. But I agree; I typically more just dive in like, hey, give me a ticket. Let me go from there. I might do some simple command-line checking. So, for example, if I want to look through app models, let's find out which model is the largest. I may look for that to see do we have a God object or something like that? So I may look there. I just want to know how long are some of these files? But I also don't use a particular tool for that churn versus complexity. CHRIS: I think you hit the nail on the head with like, I wish that were easier or more in our toolset. But here on The Bike Shed, we tell the truth. And that is aspirational code flexing that we do not yet have. But I agree, that would be a really nice way to explore exactly what you're describing of, like, who are the God models? I'll definitely do that check, but not some of the more subtle and sophisticated show me the change over time of all these...like nah, that's not what I'm doing, much as I would like to be able to answer that way. STEPH: But it also feels like one of those areas like, it would be nice, but I would be intrigued to see how much I use that. That might be a nice anecdote to have. But I find the diving into the codebase to be more fruitful because I guess it depends on what I'm really looking at. Am I looking to see how complicated of a codebase this is? Because then I need to give more of a high-level review to someone to say how long I think it's going to take for me to work on a particular feature or before I'm joining a team, like, who do I think are good teammates that would then enjoy working on this application? That feels like a very different question to me versus the I'm already part of the team. I'm here. We're going to have complexity and churn. So I can just learn some of that over time. I don't have to know that upfront. Although it may be nice to just know at a high level, say like, okay, if I pick up a ticket, and then I look at that churn and complexity, to be like, okay, my ticket falls right smack-dab in the middle of that. So it's going to be a fun first week. That could be a fun fact. But otherwise, I'm not sure. I mean, yeah, I'd be intrigued to see how much it helps me. One other place that I do browse is I go to the gem file. I'm just always curious, what do people have in their tool bag? I want to see are there any gems that have been pulled in that are helping the team process some deprecated behavior? So something that's been pulled out of Rails but then pulled into a separate gem. So then that way, they don't have to upgrade just yet, or they can upgrade but then still keep some of that existing old deprecated behavior. That kind of stuff is interesting to me. And also, you called it earlier pairing. That's my other favorite way. I want to hear how people talk about the codebase, how they navigate. What are they frustrated by? What brings them joy? All of that is really helpful too. I think that covers all the ways that I immediately will go to when getting acquainted with a new codebase. CHRIS: I think that covers most of what I have in mind, although the question is framed in an interesting way that I think really speaks to the consultant mindset. How do I get acquainted with a new codebase? But if you take the question and flip it around sort of 180 degrees, I think the question can be reframed as how does an organization help people onboard into a codebase? And so everything we just described are like, here's what I do, here's how I would go about it, and pairing starts to get to collaboration. I think we've talked in a number of episodes about our thoughts on onboarding and being intentional with that, pairing people up. A lot of things we described it's like, it's ideal actually if the organization is pushing this. And you and I both worked as consultants for long enough that we're really in the mindset of like, all right, let's assume I'm just showing up. There's no one else there. They give me a laptop and no documentation and no other humans I'm allowed to talk to. How do I figure this out and get the next feature out to production? And ideally, it's something slightly better than that that we experience, but we're ready for whatever it is. Versus, most people are working within the context of an organization for a longer period of time. And most organizations should be thinking about it from the perspective of how do I help the new hires come into this codebase and become effective as quickly as possible? And so I think a lot of what we said can just be flipped around and said from the other way, like, pair them up, put them on a feature early, give them a walkthrough of the codebase, give them a sales-centric demo. Yeah, I feel equally about those things when said from the other side, but I do want to emphasize that this shouldn't be you're out there in the middle of the jungle with only a machete, and you got to figure out this codebase. Ideally, the organization is actually like, no, no, we'll help you. It's ours, so we know it. We can help you find the weird stuff. STEPH: That's a really nice distinction, though, because you're right; I hadn't really thought about this. I was thinking about this from more of the perspective of you're out in the jungle with a machete, minus we did mention pairing in there [laughs] and maybe a demo. I was approaching it more from you're isolated or more solo and then getting accustomed to the codebase versus if you have more people to lean on. But then that also makes me think of all the other processes that I didn't mention that I would include in that onboarding that you're speaking of, of like, how does this team work in terms of where do I push my code? What hooks are going to run? And then what do I wait for? How many people need to review my code? There are all those process-y questions that I think would ideally be included on the onboarding. But that has happened before, I mean, where we've joined projects, and it's been like, okay, good luck. Let us know if you need anything. And so then you do need those machete skills to then start hacking away. [laughs] CHRIS: We've been burned before. STEPH: They come in handy. [laughs] So when you are in that situation, and there's a comet that's coming to destroy earth, and there's a Rails application that is preventing this big doomsday, the question is, do you take astronauts and train them to be Rails experts, or do you take Rails developers and train them to be astronauts? I think that's the big question. CHRIS: What would Michael Bay do? STEPH: On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Steph has a baby update and thoughts on movies, plus a question for Chris related to migrating Test Unit tests to RSpec. Chris watched a video from Google I/O where Chrome devs talked about a new feature called Page Transitions. He's also been working with a tool called Customer.io, an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure! Page transitions Overview (https://youtu.be/JCJUPJ_zDQ4) Using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/using-yieldself-for-composable-activerecord-relations) A Case for Query Objects in Rails (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/a-case-for-query-objects-in-rails) Customer.io (https://customer.io/) Turning the database inside-out with Apache Samza | Confluent (https://www.confluent.io/blog/turning-the-database-inside-out-with-apache-samza/) Datomic (https://www.datomic.com/) About CRDTs • Conflict-free Replicated Data Types (https://crdt.tech/) Apache Kafka (https://kafka.apache.org/) Resilient Management | A book for new managers in tech (https://resilient-management.com/) Mixpanel: Product Analytics for Mobile, Web, & More (https://mixpanel.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Golden roads are golden. Okay, everybody's got golden roads. You have golden roads, yes? That is what we're -- STEPH: Oh, I have golden roads, yes. [laughter] CHRIS: You might should inform that you've got golden roads, yeah. STEPH: Yeah, I don't know if I say might should as much but might could. I have been called out for that one a lot; I might could do that. CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: That one just feels so natural to me than normal. Anytime someone calls it out, I'm like, yeah, what about it? [laughter] CHRIS: Do you want to fight? STEPH: Yeah, are we going to fight? CHRIS: I might could fight you. STEPH: I might could. I might should. [laughter] CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. I have a couple of fun updates. I have a baby Viccari update, so little baby weighs about two pounds now, two pounds. I'm 25 weeks along. So not that I actually know the exact weight, I'm using all those apps that estimate based on how far along you are, so around two pounds, which is novel. Oh, and then the other thing I'm excited to tell you about...I'm not sure how I should feel that I just got more excited about this other thing. I'm very excited about baby Viccari. But the other thing is there's a new Jurassic Park movie coming out, and I'm very excited. I think it's June 10th is when it comes out. And given how much we have sung that theme song to each other and make references to what a clever girl, I needed to share that with you. Maybe you already know, maybe you're already in the loop, but if you don't, it's coming. CHRIS: Yeah, the internet likes to yell things like that. Have you watched all of the most recent ones? There are like two, and I think this will be the third in the revisiting or whatever, the Jurassic World version or something like that. But have you watched the others? STEPH: I haven't seen all of them. So I've, of course, seen the first one. I saw the one that Chris Pratt was in, and now he's in the latest one. But I think I've missed...maybe there's like two in the middle there. I have not watched those. CHRIS: There are three in the original trilogy, and then there are three now in the new trilogy, which now it's ending, and they got everybody. STEPH: Oh, I'm behind. CHRIS: They got people from the first one, and they got the people from the second trilogy. They just got everybody, and that's exciting. You know, it's that thing where they tap into nostalgia, and they take advantage of us via it. But I'm fine. I'm here for it. STEPH: I'm here for it, especially for Jurassic Park. But then there's also a new Top Gun movie coming out, which, I'll be honest, I'm totally going to watch. But I really didn't remember the first one. I don't know that I've really ever watched the first Top Gun. So Tim, my partner, and I watched that recently, and it's such a bad movie. I'm going to say it; [laughs] it's a bad movie. CHRIS: I mean, I don't want to disagree, but the volleyball scene, come on, come on, the volleyball scene. [laughter] STEPH: I mean, I totally had a good time watching the movie. But the one part that I finally kept complaining about is because every time they showed the lead female character, I can't think of her character name or the actress's name, but they kept playing that song, Take My Breath Away. And I was like, can we just get past the song? [laughs] Because if you go back and watch that movie, I swear they play it like six different times. It was a lot. It was too much. So I moved it into bad movie category but bad movie totally worth watching, whatever category that is. CHRIS: Now I kind of want to revisit it. I feel like the drinking game writes itself. But at a minimum, anytime Take My Breath Away plays, yeah. Well, all right, good to know. [laughs] STEPH: Well, if you do that, let me know how many shots or beers you drink because I think it will be a fair amount. I think it will be more than five. CHRIS: Yeah, it involves a delicate calibration to get that right. I don't think it's the sort of thing you just freehand. It writes itself but also, you want someone who's tried it before you so that you're not like, oh no, it's every time they show a jet. That was too many. You can't drink that much while watching this movie. STEPH: Yeah, that would be death by Top Gun. CHRIS: But not the normal way, the different, indirect death by Top Gun. STEPH: I don't know what the normal way is. [laughs] CHRIS: Like getting shot down by a Top Gun pilot. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. [laughs] CHRIS: You know, the dogfighting in the plane. STEPH: The actual, yeah, going to war away. Just sitting on your couch and you drink too much poison away, yeah, that one. All right, that got weird. Moving on, [laughs] there's a new Jurassic Park movie. We're going to land on that note. And in the more technical world, I've got a couple of things on my mind. One of them is I have a question for you. I'm very excited to run this by you because I could use a friend in helping me decide what to do. So I am still on that journey where I am migrating Test::Unit test over to RSpec. And as I'm going through, it's going pretty well, but it's a little complicated because some of the Test::Unit tests have different setup than, say, the RSpec do. They might run different scripts beforehand where they're loading data. That's perhaps a different topic, but that's happening. And so that has changed a few things. But then overall, I've just been really just porting everything over, like, hey, if it exists in the Test::Unit, let's just bring it to RSpec, and then I'm going to change these asserts to expects and really not make any changes from there. But as I'm doing that, I'm seeing areas that I want to improve and things that I want to clear up, even if it's just extracting a variable name. Or, as I'm moving some of these over in Test::Unit, it's not clear to me exactly what the test is about. Like, it looks more like a method name in the way that the test is being described, but the actual behavior isn't clear to me as if I were writing this in RSpec, I think it would have more of a clear description. Maybe that's not specific to the actual testing framework. That might just be how these tests are set up. But I'm at that point where I'm questioning should I keep going in terms of where I am just copying everything over from Test::Unit and then moving it over to RSpec? Because ultimately, that is the goal, to migrate over. Or should I also include some time to then go back and clean up and try to add some clarity, maybe extract some variable names, see if I can reduce some lets, maybe even reduce some of the test helpers that I'm bringing over? How much cleanup should be involved, zero, lots? I don't know. I don't know what that...[laughs] I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere. But I'm having trouble discerning for myself what's the right amount because this feels like one of those areas where if I don't do any cleanup, I'm not coming back to it, like, that's just the truth. So it's either now, or I have no idea when and maybe never. CHRIS: I'll be honest, the first thing that came to mind in this most recent time that you mentioned this is, did we consider just deleting these tests entirely? Is that on...like, there are very few of them, right? Like, are they even providing enough value? So that was question one, which let me pause to see what your thoughts there were. [chuckles] STEPH: I don't know if we specifically talked about that on the mic, but yes, that has been considered. And the team that owns those tests has said, "No, please don't delete them. We do get value from them." So we can port them over to RSpec, but we don't have time to port them over to RSpec. So we just need to keep letting them go on. But yet, not porting them conflicts with my goal of then trying to speed up CI. And so it'd be nice to collapse these Test::Unit tests over to RSpec because then that would bring our CI build down by several meaningful minutes. And also, it would reduce some of the complexity in the CI setup. CHRIS: Gotcha. Okay, so now, having set that aside, I always ask the first question of like, can you just put Derek Prior's phone number on the webpage and call it an app? Is that the MVP of this app? No? Okay, all right, we have to build more. But yeah, I think to answer it and in a general way of trying to answer a broader set of questions here... I think this falls into a category of like if you find yourself having to move around some code, if that code is just comfortably running and the main thing you need to do is just to get it ported over to RSpec, I would probably do as little other work as possible. With the one consideration that if you find yourself needing to deeply load up the context of these tests like actually understand them in order to do the porting, then I would probably take advantage of that context because it's hard to get your head into a given piece of code, test or otherwise. And so if you're in there and you're like, well, now that I'm here, I can definitely see that we could rearrange some stuff and just definitively make it better, if you get to that place, I would consider it. But if this ends up being mostly a pretty rote transformation like you said, asserts become expects, and lets get switched around, you know, that sort of stuff, if it's a very mechanical process of getting done, I would probably say very minimal. But again, if there is that, like, you know what? I had to understand the test in order to port them anyway, so while I'm here, let me take advantage of that, that's probably the thing that I would consider. But if not that, then I would say even though it's messy and whatnot and your inclination would be to clean it, I would say leave it roughly as is. That's my guess or how I would approach it. STEPH: Yeah, I love that. I love how you pointed out, like, did you build up the context? Because you're right, in a lot of these test cases, I'm not, or I'm trying really hard to not build up context. I'm trying very hard to just move them over and, if I have to, mainly to find test descriptions. That's the main area I'm struggling to...how can I more explicitly state what this test does so the next person reading this will have more comprehension than I do? But otherwise, I'm trying hard to not have any real context around it. And that's such a good point because that's often...when someone else is in the middle of something, and they're deciding whether to include that cleanup or refactor or improvement, one of my suggestions is like, hey, we've got the context now. Let's go with it. But if you've built up very little context, then that's not a really good catalyst or reason to then dig in deeper and apply that cleanup. That's super helpful. Thank you. That will help reinforce what I'm going to do, which is exactly let's migrate RSpec and not worry about cleanup, which feels terrible; I'm just going to say that into the world. But it also feels like the right thing to do. CHRIS: Well, I'm happy to have helped. And I share the like, and it feels terrible. I want to do the right thing, but sometimes you got to pick a battle sort of thing. STEPH: Cool. Well, that's a huge help to me. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: What's going on in my world? I watched a great video the other day from the Google I/O. I think it's an event; I'm not actually sure, conference or something like that. But it was some Google Chrome developers talking about a new feature that's coming to the platform called Page Transitions. And I've kept an eye on this for a while, but it seems like it's more real. Like, I think they put out an RFC or an initial sort of set of ideas a while back. And the web community was like, "Oh, that's not going to work out so well." So they went back to the drawing board, revisited. I've actually implemented in Chrome Canary a version of the API. And then, in the video that I watched, which we'll include a show notes link to, they demoed the functionality of the Page Transitions API and showed what you can do. And it's super cool. It allows for the sort of animations that you see in a lot of native mobile apps where you're looking at a ListView, you click on one of the items, and it grows to fill the whole screen. And now you're on the detail screen for that item that you were looking at. But there was this very continuous animated transition that allows you to keep context in your head and all of those sorts of nice things. And this just really helps to bridge that gap between, like, the web often lags behind the native mobile platforms in terms of the experiences that we can build. So it was really interesting to see what they've been able to pull off. The demo is a pretty short video, but it shows a couple of different variations of what you can build with it. And I was like, yeah, these look like cool native app transitions, really nifty. One thing that's very interesting is the actual implementation of this. So it's like you have one version of the page, and then you transition to a new version of the page, and in doing so, you want to animate between them. And the way that they do it is they have the first version of the page. They take a screenshot of it like the browser engine takes a screenshot of it. And then they put that picture on top of the actual browser page. Then they do the same thing with the next version of the page that they're going to transition to. And then they crossfade, like, change the opacity and size and whatnot between the two different images, and then you're there. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm sorry, what now? You did which? I'm like, is this the genius solution that actually makes this work and is performant? And I wonder if there are trade-offs. Like, do you lose interactivity between those because you've got some images that are just on the screen? And what is that like? But as they were going through it, I was just like, wait, I'm sorry, you did what? This is either the best idea I've ever heard, or I'm not so sure about this. STEPH: That's fascinating. You had me with the first part in terms of they take a screenshot of the page that you're leaving. I'm like, yeah, that's a great idea. And then talking about taking a picture of the other page because then you have to load it but not show it to the user that it's loaded. And then take a picture of it, and then show them the picture of the loaded page. But then actually, like you said, then crossfade and then bring in the real functionality. I am...what am I? [laughter] CHRIS: What am I actually? STEPH: [laughs] What am I? I'm shocked. I'm surprised that that is so performant. Because yeah, I also wouldn't have thought of that, or I would have immediately have thought like, there's no way that's going to be performant enough. But that's fascinating. CHRIS: For me, performance seems more manageable, but it's the like, what are you trading off for that? Because that sounds like a hack. That sounds like the sort of thing I would recommend if we need to get an MVP out next week. And I'm like, what if we just tried this? Listen, it's got some trade-offs. So I'm really interested to see are those trade-offs present? Because it's the browser engine. It's, you know, the low-level platform that's actually managing this. And there are some nice hooks that allow you to control it. And at a CSS level, you can manage it and use keyframe animations to control the transition more directly. There's a JavaScript API to instrument the sequencing of things. And so it's giving you the right primitives and the right hooks. And the fact that the implementation happens to use pictures or screenshots, to use a slightly different word, it's like, okey dokey, that's what we're doing. Sounds fun. So I'm super interested because the functionality is deeply, deeply interesting to me. Svelte actually has a version of this, the crossfade utility, but you have to still really think about how do you sequence between the two pages and how do you do the connective tissue there? And then Svelte will manage it for you if you do all the right stuff. But the wiring up is somewhat complicated. So having this in the browser engine is really interesting to me. But yeah, pictures. STEPH: This is one of those ideas where I can't decide if this was someone who is very new to the team and new to the idea and was like, "Have we considered screenshots? Have we considered pictures?" Or if this is like the uber senior person on the team that was like, "Yeah, this will totally work with screenshots." I can't decide where in that range this idea falls, which I think makes me love it even more. Because it's very straightforward of like, hey, what if we just tried this? And it's working, so cool, cool, cool. CHRIS: There's a fantastic meme that's been making the rounds where it's a bell curve, and it's like, early in your career, middle of your career, late in your career. And so early in your career, you're like, everything in one file, all lines of code that's just where they go. And then in the middle of your career, you're like, no, no, no, we need different concerns, and files, and organizational structures. And then end of your career...and this was coming up in reference to the TypeScript team seems to have just thrown everything into one file. And it's the thing that they've migrated to over time. And so they have this many, many line file that is basically the TypeScript engine all in one file. And so it was a joke of like, they definitely know what they're doing with programming. They're not just starting last week sort of thing. And so it's this funny arc that certain things can go through. So I think that's an excellent summary there [laughs] of like, I think it was folks who have thought about this really hard. But I kind of hope it was someone who was just like, "I'm new here. But have we thought about pictures? What about pictures?" I also am a little worried that I just deeply misunderstood [laughs] the representation but glossed over it in the video, and I'm like, that sounds interesting. So hopefully, I'm not just wildly off base here. [laughs] But nonetheless, the functionality looks very interesting. STEPH: That would be a hilarious tweet. You know, I've been waiting for that moment where I've said something that I understood into the mic and someone on Twitter just being like, well, good try, but... [laughs] CHRIS: We had a couple of minutes where we tried to figure out what the opposite of ranting was, and we came up with pranting and made up a word instead of going with praising or raving. No, that's what it is, raving. [laughs] STEPH: No, raving. I will never forget now, raving. [laughs] CHRIS: So, I mean, we've done this before. STEPH: That's true. Although they were nice, I don't think they tweeted. I think they sent in an email. They were like, "Hey, friends." [laughter] CHRIS: Actually, we got a handful of emails on that. [laughter] STEPH: Did you know the English language? CHRIS: Thank you, kind Bikeshed audience, for not shaming us in public. I mean, feel free if you feel like it. [laughs] But one other thing that came up in this video, though, is the speaker was describing single-page apps are very common, and you want to have animated transitions and this and that. And I was like, single-page app, okay, fine. I don't like the terminology but whatever. I would like us to call it the client-side app or client-side routing or something else. But the fact that it's a single page is just a technical consideration that no user would call it that. Users are like; I go to the web app. I like that it has URLs. Those seem different to me. Anyway, this is my hill. I'm going to die on it. But then the speaker in the video, in contrast to single-page app referenced multi-page app, and I was like, oh, come on, come on. I get it. Like, yes, there are just balls of JavaScript that you can download on the internet and have a dynamic graphics editor. But I think almost all good things on the web should have URLs, and that's what I would call the multiple pages. But again, that's just me griping about some stuff. And to name it, I don't think I'm just griping for griping sake. Like, again, I like to think about things from the user perspective, and the URL being so important. And having worked with plenty of apps that are implemented in JavaScript and don't take the URL or the idea that we can have different routable resources seriously and everything is just one URL, that's a failure mode in my mind. We missed an opportunity here. So I think I'm saying a useful thing here and not just complaining on the internet. But with that, I will stop complaining on the internet and send it back over to you. What else is new in your world, Steph? STEPH: I do remember the first time that you griped about it, and you were griping about URLs. And there was a part of me that was like, what is he talking about? [laughter] And then over time, I was like, oh, I get it now as I started actually working more in that world. But it took me a little bit to really appreciate that gripe and where you're coming from. And I agree; I think you're coming from a reasonable place, not that I'm biased at all as your co-host, but you know. CHRIS: I really like the honest summary that you're giving of, like, honestly, the first time you said this, I let you go for a while, but I did not know what you were talking about. [laughs] And I was like, okay, good data point. I'm going to store that one away and think about it a bunch. But that's fine. I'm glad you're now hanging out with me still. [laughter] STEPH: Don't do that. Don't think about it a bunch. [laughs] Let's see, oh, something else that's going on in my world. I had a really fun pairing session with another thoughtboter where we were digging into query objects and essentially extracting some logic out of an ActiveRecord model and then giving that behavior its own space and elevated namespace in a query object. And one of the questions or one of the things that came up that we needed to incorporate was optional filters. So say if you are searching for a pizza place that's nearby and you provide a city, but you don't provide what's the optional zip code, then we want to make sure that we don't apply the zip code in the where clause because then you would return all the pizza places that have a nil zip code, and that's just not what you want. So we need to respect the fact that not all the filters need to be applied. And there are a couple of ways to go about it. And it was a fun journey to see the different ways that we could structure it. So one of the really good starting points is captured in a blog post by Derek Prior, which we'll include a link to in the show notes, and it's using yield_self for composable ActiveRecord relations. But essentially, it starts out with an example where it shows that you're assigning a value to then the result of an if statement. So it's like, hey, if the zip code is present, then let's filter by zip code; if not, then just give us back the original relation. And then you can just keep building on it from there. And then there's a really nice implementation that Derek built on that then uses yield_self to pass the relation through, which then provides a really nice readability for as you are then stepping through each filter and which one should and shouldn't be applied. And now there's another blog post, and this one's written by Thiago Silva, A Case for Query Objects in Rails. And this one highlighted an approach that I haven't used before. And I initially had some mixed feelings about it. But this approach uses the extending method, which is a method that's on ActiveRecord query methods. And it's used to extend the scope with additional methods. You can either do this by providing the name of a module or by providing a block. It's only going to apply to that instance or to that specific scope when you're using it. So it's not going to be like you're running an include or something like that where all instances are going to now have access to these methods. So by using that method, extending, then you can create a module that says, "Hey, I want to create this by zip code filter that will then check if we have a zip code, let's apply it, if not, return the relation. And it also creates a really pretty chaining experience of like, here's my original class name. Let's extend with these specific scopes, and then we can say by zip code, by pizza topping, whatever else it is that we're looking to filter by. And I was initially...I saw the extending, and it made me nervous because I was like, oh, what all does this apply to? And is it going to impact anything outside of this class? But the more I've looked at it, the more I really like it. So I think you've seen this blog post too. And I'm curious, what are your thoughts about this? CHRIS: I did see this blog post come through. I follow that thoughtbot blog real close because it turns out some of the best writing on the internet is on there. But I saw this...also, as an aside, I like that we've got two Derek Prior references in one episode. Let's see if we can go for three before the end. But one thing that did stand out to me in it is I have historically avoided scopes using scope like ActiveRecord macro thing. It's a class method, but like, it's magic. It does magic. And a while ago, class methods and scopes became roughly equivalent, not exactly equivalent, but close enough. And for me, I want to use methods because I know stuff about methods. I know about default arguments. And I know about all of these different subtleties because they're just methods at the end of the day, whereas scopes are special; they have certain behavior. And I've never really known of the behavior beyond the fact that they get implemented in a different way. And so I was never really sold on them. And they're different enough from methods, and I know methods well. So I'm like, let's use the normal stuff where we can. The one thing that's really interesting, though, is the returning nil that was mentioned in this blog post. If you return nil in a scope, it will handle that for you. Whereas all of my query objects have a like, well, if this thing applies, then scope dot or relation dot where blah, blah, blah, else return relation unchanged. And the fact that that natively exists within scope is interesting enough to make me reconsider my stance on scopes versus class methods. I think I'm still doing class method. But it is an interesting consideration that I was unaware of before. STEPH: Yeah, it's an interesting point. I hadn't really considered as much whether I'm defining a class-level method versus a scope in this particular case. And I also didn't realize that scopes handle that nil case for you. That was one of the other things that I learned by reading through this blog post. I was like, oh, that is a nicety. Like, that is something that I get for free. So I agree. I think this is one of those things that I like enough that I'd really like to try it out more and then see how it goes and start to incorporate it into my process. Because this feels like one of those common areas of where I get to it, and I'm like, how do I do this again? And yield_self was just complicated enough in terms of then using the fancy method method to then be able to call the method that I want that I was like, I don't remember how to do this. I had to look it up each time. But including this module with extending and then being able to use scopes that way feels like something that would be intuitive for me that then I could just pick up and run with each time. CHRIS: If it helps, you can use then instead of yield_self because we did upgrade our Ruby a while back to have that change. But I don't think that actually solves the thing that you're describing. I'd have liked the ampersand method and then simple method name magic incantation that is part of the thing that Derek wrote up. I do use it when I write query objects, but I have to think about it or look it up each time and be like, how do I do that? All right, that's how I do that. STEPH: Yeah, that's one of the things that I really appreciate is how often folks will go back and update blog posts, or they will add an addition to them to say, "Hey, there's something new that came out that then is still relevant to this topic." So then you can read through it and see the latest and the greatest. It's a really nice touch to a number of our blog posts. But yeah, that's what was on my mind regarding query objects. What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: I have this growing feeling that I don't quite know what to do with. I think I've talked about it across some of our conversations in the world of observability. But broadly, I'm starting to like...I feel like my brain has shifted, and I now see the world slightly differently, and I can't go back. But I also don't know how to stick the landing and complete this transition in my brain. So it's basically everything's an event stream; this feels true. That's life. The arrow of time goes in one direction as far as I understand it. And I'm now starting to see it manifest in the code that we're writing. Like, we have code to log things, and we have places where we want to log more intentionally. Then occasionally, we send stuff off to Sentry. And Sentry tells us when there are errors, that's great. But in a lot of places, we have both. Like, we will warn about something happening, and we'll send that to the logs because we want to have that in the logs, which is basically the whole history of what's happened. But we also have it in Sentry, but Sentry's version is just this expanded version that has a bunch more data about the user, and things, and the browser that they were in. But they're two variations on the same event. And then similarly, analytics is this, like, third leg of well, this thing happened, and we want to know about it in the context. And what's been really interesting is we're working with a tool called Customer.io, which is an omnichannel communication whiz-bang adventure. For us, it does email, SMS, and push notifications. And it's integrated into our segment pipeline, so events flow in, events and users essentially. So we have those two different primitives within it. And then within it, we can say like, when a user does X, then send them an email with this copy. As an aside, Customer.io is a fantastic platform. I'm super-duper impressed. We went through a search for a tool like it, and we ended up on a lot of sales demos with folks that were like, hey, so yeah, starting point is $25,000 per year. And, you know, we can talk about it, but it's only going to go up from there when we talk about it, just to be clear. And it's a year minimum contract, and you're going to love it. And we're like, you do have impressive platforms, but okay, that's a bunch. And then, we found Customer.io, and it's month-by-month pricing. And it had a surprisingly complete feature set. So overall, I've been super impressed with Customer.io and everything that they've afforded. But now that I'm seeing it, I kind of want to move everything into that world where like, Customer.io allows non-engineer team members to interact with that event stream and then make things happen. And that's what we're doing all the time. But I'm at that point where I think I see the thing that I want, but I have no idea how to get there. And it might not even be tractable either. There's the wonderful Turning the Database Inside Out talk, which describes how everything is an event stream. And what if we actually were to structure things that way and do materialized views on top of it? And the actual UI that you're looking at is a materialized view on top of the database, which is a materialized view on top of that event stream. So I'm mostly in this, like, I want to figure this out. I want to start to unify all this stuff. And analytics pipes to one tool that gets a version of this event stream, and our logs are just another, and our error system is another variation on it. But they're all sort of sampling from that one event stream. But I have no idea how to do that. And then when you have a database, then you're like, well, that's also just a static representation of a point in time, which is the opposite of an event stream. So what do you do there? So there are folks out there that are doing good thinking on this. So I'm going to keep my ear to the ground and try and see what's everybody thinking on this front? But I can't shake the feeling that there's something here that I'm missing that I want to stitch together. STEPH: I'm intrigued on how to take this further because everything you're saying resonates in terms of having these event streams that you're working with. But yet, I can't mentally replace that with the existing model that I have in my mind of where there are still certain ideas of records or things that exist in the world. And I want to encapsulate the data and store that in the database. And maybe I look it up based on when it happens; maybe I don't. Maybe I'm looking it up by something completely different. So yeah, I'm also intrigued by your thoughts, but I'm also not sure where to take it. Who are some of the folks that are doing some of the thinking in this area that you're interested in, or where might you look next? CHRIS: There's the Kafka world of we have an event log, and then we're processing on top of that, and we're building stream processing engines as the core. They seem to be closest to the Turning the Database Inside Out talk that I was thinking or that I mentioned earlier. There's also the idea of CRDTs, which are Conflict-free Replicated Data Types, which are really interesting. I see them used particularly in real-time application. So it's this other tool, but they are basically event logs. And then you can communicate them well and have two different people working on something collaboratively. And these event logs then have a natural way to come together and produce a common version of the document on either end. That's at least my loose understanding of it, but it seems like a variation on this theme. So I've been looking at that a little bit. But again, I can't see how to map that to like, but I know how to make a Rails app with a Postgres database. And I think I'm reasonably capable at it, or at least I've been able to produce things that are useful to humans using it. And so it feels like there is this pretty large gap. Because what makes sense in my head is if you follow this all the way, it fundamentally re-architects everything. And so that's A, scary, and B; I have no idea how to get there, but I am intrigued. Like, I feel like there's something there. There's also Datomic is the other thing that comes to mind, which is a database engine in the Clojure world that stores the versions of things over time; that idea of the user is active. It's like, well, yeah, but when were they not? That's an event. That transition is an event that Postgres does not maintain at this point. And so, all I know is that the user is active. Maybe I store a timestamp because I'm thinking proactively about this. But Datomic is like no, no, fundamentally, as a primitive in this database; that's how we organize and think about stuff. And I know I've talked about Datomic on here before. So I've circled around these ideas before. And I'm pretty sure I'm just going to spend a couple of minutes circling and then stop because I have no idea how to connect the dots. [laughs] But I want to figure this out. STEPH: I have not worked with Kafka. But one of the main benefits I understand with Kafka is that by storing everything as a stream, you're never going to lose like a message. So if you are sending a message to another system and then that message gets lost in transit, you don't actually know if it got acknowledged or what happened with it, and replaying is really hard. Where do you pick up again? While using something like Kafka, you know exactly what you sent last, and then you're not going to have that uncertainty as to what messages went through and which ones didn't. And then the ability to replay is so important. I'm curious, as you continue to explore this, do you have a particular pain point in mind that you'd like to see improve? Or is it more just like, this seems like a really cool, novel idea; how can I incorporate more of this into my world? CHRIS: I think it's the latter. But I think the thing that I keep feeling is we keep going back and re-instrumenting versions of this. We're adding more logging or more analytics events over the wire or other things. But then, as I send these analytics events over the wire, we have Mixpanel downstream as an analytics visualization and workflow tool or Customer.io. At this point, those applications, I think, have a richer understanding of our users than our core Rails app. And something about that feels wrong to me. We're also streaming everything that goes through segment to S3 because I had a realization of this a while back. I'm like, that event stream is very interesting. I don't want to lose it. I'm going to put it somewhere that I get to keep it. So even if we move off of either Mixpanel or Customer.io or any of those other platforms, we still have our data. That's our data, and we're going to hold on to it. But interestingly, Customer.io, when it sends a message, will push an event back into segments. So it's like doubly connected to segment, which is managing this sort of event bus of data. And so Mixpanel then gets an even richer set there, and the Rails app is like, I'm cool. I'm still hanging out, and I'm doing stuff; it's fine. But the fact that the Rails app is fundamentally less aware of the things that have happened is really interesting to me. And I am not running into issues with it, but I do feel odd about it. STEPH: That touched on a theme that is interesting to me, the idea that I hadn't really considered it in those terms. But yeah, our application provides the tool in which people can interact with. But then we outsource the behavior analysis of our users and understanding what that flow is and what they're going through. I hadn't really thought about those concrete terms and where someone else owns the behavior of our users, but yet we own all the interaction points. And then we really need both to then make decisions about features and things that we're building next. But that also feels like building a whole new product, that behavior analysis portion of it, so it's interesting. My consulting brain is going wild at the moment between like, yeah, it would be great to own that. But that the other time if there's this other service that has already built that product and they're doing it super well, then let's keep letting them manage that portion of our business until we really need to bring it in-house. Because then we need to incorporate it more into our application itself so then we can surface things to the user. That's the part where then I get really interested, or that's the pain point that I could see is if we wanted more of that behavior analysis, that then we want to surface that in the app, then always having to go to a third-party would start to feel tedious or could feel more brittle. CHRIS: Yeah, I'm definitely 100% on not rebuilding Mixpanel in our app and being okay with the fact that we're sending that. Again, the thing that I did to make myself feel better about this is stream the data to S3 so that I have a version of it. And if we want to rebuild the data warehouse down the road to build some sort of machine learning data pipeline thing, we've got some raw data to work with. But I'm noticing lots of places where we're transforming a side effect, a behavior that we have in the system to dispatching an event. And so right now, we have a bunch of stuff that we pipe over to Slack to inform our admin team, hey, this thing happened. You should probably intervene. But I'm looking at that, and we're doing it directly because we can control the message in Slack a little bit better. But I had this thought in the back of my mind; it's like, could we just send that as an event, and then some downstream tool can configure messages and alerts into Slack? Because then the admin team could actually instrument this themselves. And they could be like; we are no longer interested in this event. Users seem fine on that front. But we do care about this new event. And all we need to do as the engineering team is properly instrument all of that event stream tapping. Every event just needs to get piped over. And then lots of powerful tools downstream from that that can allow different consumers of that data to do things, and broadly, that dispatch events, consume them on the other side, do fun stuff. That's the story. That's the dream. But I don't know; I can't connect all the dots. It's probably going to take me a couple of weeks to connect all these dots, or maybe years, or maybe my entire career, something like that. But, I don't know, I'm going to keep trying. STEPH: This feels like a fun startup narrative, though, where you start by building the thing that people can interact with. As more people start to interact with it, how do we start giving more of our team the ability to then manage the product that then all of these users are interacting with? And then that's the part that you start optimizing for. So there are always different interesting bits when you talk about the different stages of Sagewell, and like, what's the thing you're optimizing for? And I'm sure it's still heavily users. But now there's also this addition of we are also optimizing for our team to now manage the product. CHRIS: Yes, you're 100%. You're spot on there. We have definitely joked internally about spinning out a small company to build this analytics alerting tool [laughs] but obviously not going to do that because that's a distraction. And it is interesting, like, we want to build for the users the best thing that we can and where the admin team fits within that. To me, they're very much customers of engineering. Our job is to build the thing for the users but also, to be honest, we have to build a thing for the admins to support the users and exactly where that falls. Like, you and I have talked a handful of times about maybe the admin isn't as polished in design as other things. But it's definitely tested because that's a critical part of how this application works. Maybe not directly for a user but one step removed for a user, so it matters. Absolutely we're writing tests to cover that behavior. And so yeah, those trade-offs are always interesting to me and exploring that space. But 100%: our admin team are core customers of the work that we're doing in engineering. And we try and stay very close and very friendly with them. STEPH: Yeah, I really appreciate how you're framing that. And I very much agree and believe with you that our admin users are incredibly important. CHRIS: Well, thank you. Yeah, we're trying over here. But yeah, I think I can wrap up that segment of me rambling about ideas that are half-formed in my mind but hopefully are directionally important. Anyway, what else is up with you? STEPH: So, not that long ago, I asked you a question around how the heck to manage themes that I have going on. So we've talked about lots of fun productivity things around managing to-dos, and emails, and all that stuff. And my latest one is thinking about, like, I have a theme that I want to focus on, maybe it's this week, maybe it's for a couple of months. And how do I capture that and surface it to myself and see that I'm making progress on that? And I don't have an answer to that. But I do have a theme that I wanted to share. And the one that I'm currently focused on is building up management skills and team lead skills. That is something that I'm focused on at the moment and partially because I was inspired to read the book Resilient Management written by Lara Hogan. And so I think that is what has really set the idea. But as I picked up the book, I was like, this is a really great book, and I'd really like to share some of this. And then so that grew into like, well, let's just go ahead and make this a theme where I'm learning this, and I'm sharing this with everyone else. So along that note, I figured I would share that here. So we use Basecamp at thoughtbot. And so, I've been sharing some Basecamp posts around what I'm learning in each chapter. But to bring some of that knowledge here as well, some of the cool stuff that I have learned so far...and this is just still very early on in the book. There are a couple of different topics that Laura covers in the first chapter, and one of them is humans' core needs at work. And then there's also the concept of meeting your team, some really good questions that you can ask during your first one-on-one to get to know the person that then you're going to be managing. The part that really resonated with me and something that I would like to then coach myself to try is helping the team get to know you. So as a manager, not only are you going out of your way to really get to know that person, but how are you then helping them get to know you as well? Because then that's really going to help set that relationship in regards of they know what kind of things that you're optimizing for. Maybe you're optimizing for a deadline, or for business goals, or maybe it's for transparency, or maybe it would be helpful to communicate to someone that you're managing to say, "Hey, I'm trying some new management techniques. Let me know how this goes." [chuckles] So there's a healthier relationship of not only are you learning them, but they're also learning you. So some of the questions that Laura includes as examples as something that you can share with your team is what do you optimize for in your role? So is it that you're optimizing for specific financial goals or building up teammates? Or maybe it's collaboration, so you're really looking for opportunities for people to pair together. What do you want your teammates to lean on you for? I really liked that question. Like, what are some of the areas that bring you joy or something that you feel really skilled in that then you want people to come to you for? Because that's something that before I was a manager...but it's just as you are growing as a developer, that's such a great question of like, what do you want to be known for? What do you want to be that thing that when people think of, they're like, oh, you should go see Chris about this, or you should go see Steph about this? And two other good questions include what are your work styles and preferences? And what management skills are you currently working on learning or improving? So I really like this concept of how can I share more of myself? And the great thing about this book that I'm learning too is while it is geared towards people that are managers, I think it's so wonderful for people who are non-managers or aspiring managers to read this as well because then it can help you manage whoever's managing you. So then that way, you can have some upward management. So we had recent conversations around when you are new to a team and getting used to a manager, or maybe if you're a junior, you have to take a lot of self-advocacy into your role to make sure things are going well. And I think this book does a really good job for people that are looking to not only manage others but also manage themselves and manage upward. So that's some of the journeys from the first chapter. I'll keep you posted on the other chapters as I'm learning more. And yeah, if anybody hasn't read this book or if you're interested, I highly recommend it. I'll make sure to include a link in the show notes. CHRIS: That was just the first chapter? STEPH: Yeah, that was just the first chapter. CHRIS: My goodness. STEPH: And I shortened it drastically. [laughs] CHRIS: Okay. All right, off to the races. But I think the summary that you gave there, particularly these are true when you're managing folks but also to manage yourself and to manage up, like, this is relevant to everyone in some capacity in some shape or form. And so that feels very true. STEPH: I will include one more fun aspect from the book, and that's circling back to the humans' core needs at work. And she references Paloma Medina, a coach, and trainer who came up with this acronym. The acronym is BICEPS, and it stands for belonging, improvement, choice, equality, predictability, and significance. And then details how each of those are important to us in our work and how when one of those feels threatened, then that can lead to some problems at work or just even in our personal life. But the fun example that she gave was not when there's a huge restructuring of the organization and things like that are going on as being the most concerning in terms of how many of these needs are going to be threatened or become vulnerable. But changing where someone sits at work can actually hit all of these, and it can threaten each of these needs. And it made me think, oh, cool, plus-one for being remote because we can sit wherever we want. [laughs] But that was a really fun example of how someone's needs at work, I mean, just moving their desk, which resonates, too, because I've heard that from other people. Some of the friends that I have that work in more of a People Ops role talk about when they had to shift people around how that caused so much grief. And they were just shocked that it caused so much grief. And this explains why that can be such a big deal. So that was a fun example to read through. CHRIS: I'm now having flashbacks to times where I was like, oh, I love my spot in the office. I love the people I'm sitting with. And then there was that day, and I had to move. Yeah, no, those were days. This is true. STEPH: It triggered all the core BICEPS, all the things that you need to work. It threatened all of them. Or it could have improved them; who knows? CHRIS: There were definitely those as well, yeah. Although I think it's harder to know that it's going to be great on the way in, so it's mostly negative. I think it has that weird bias because you're like, this was a thing, I knew it. I at least understood it. And then you're in a new space, and you're like, I don't know, is this going to be terrible or great? I mean, hopefully, it's only great because you work with great people, and it's a great office. [laughs] But, like, the unknown, you're moving into the unknown, and so I think it has an inherent at least questioning bias to it. STEPH: Agreed. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeee!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris came up with a mnemonic device: Fn-Delete – for when he really wants to delete something and is also thinking about password complexity requirements, which leads to an exciting discussion around security theater. Steph talks about the upcoming RailsConf and the not-in-person option for virtual attendees. She also gives a shoutout to the Ruby Weekly newsletter for being awesome. NIST Password Standards (https://specopssoft.com/blog/nist-password-standards/) 3 ActiveRecord Mistakes That Slow Down Rails Apps: Count, Where and Present (https://www.speedshop.co/2019/01/10/three-activerecord-mistakes.html) Difference between count, length and size in an association with ActiveRecord (https://bhserna.com/count-size-length-active-record.html) Ruby Weekly (https://rubyweekly.com/) Railsconf 2022 (https://railsconf.org/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So hey, Chris, happy Friday. You know, each time I do that, I can't resist the urge to say happy Friday, but then I realize people aren't listening on a Friday. So happy day to anyone that's listening. What's new in your world, friend? CHRIS: I'm going to be honest; you threw me for a loop there. [laughs] I think it was the most recent episode where we talked about my very specific...[laughs] it's a lovely Friday, that's true. There's sun and clouds. Those are true things. But yeah, what's new in my world? [laughs] I can do this. I can focus. I got this. Actually, I have one thing. So this is going to be, I'm going to say vaguely selfish, but I have this thing that I've been trying to commit into my brain for a long time, and I just can't get it to stick. So today, I came up with like a mnemonic device for it. And I'm going to share it on The Bike Shed because maybe it'll be useful for other people. And then hopefully, in quote, unquote, "teaching it," I will deeply learn it. So the thing that happens in my world is occasionally, I want to delete a URL from Chrome's autocomplete. To be more specific, because it's easier for people to run away with that idea, it's The Weather Channel. I do not like weather.com. I try to type weather often, and I just want Google to show me the little, very quick pop-up thing there. I don't want any ads. I don't want to deal with that. But somehow, often, weather.com ends up in my results. I somehow accidentally click on it. It just gets auto-populated, and then that's the first thing that happens whenever I type weather into the Omnibox in Chrome. And I get unhappy, and I deal with it for a while, then eventually I'm like, you know what? I'm deleting it. I'm getting it out of there. And then I try and remember whatever magical key combination it is that allows you to delete an entry from the drop-down list there. And I know it's a weird combination of like, Command-Shift-Alt-Delete, Backspace, something. And every single time, it's the same. I'm like, I know it's weird, but let me try this one. How about that one? How about that one? I feel like I try every possible combination. It's like when you try and plug in a USB drive, and you're like, well, it's this way. No, it's the other way. Well, there are only two options, and I've already tried two things. How can I not have gotten it yet? But I got it now. Okay, so on a Mac specifically, the key sequence is Shift-Function-Delete. So the way I'm going to remember this is Function is abbreviated on the keyboard as Fn. So that can be like I'm swearing, like, I'm very angry about this. And then Shift is the way to uppercase something like you're shouting. So I just really need to Fn-Delete this. So that's how I'm going to remember it. Now I've shared it with everyone else, and hopefully, some other folks can get utility out of that. But really, I hope that I remember it now that I've tried to boil it down to a memorable thing. STEPH: [laughs] It's definitely memorable. I'm now going to remember just that I need to Fn-Delete this. And I'm not going to remember what it all is tied to. [laughs] CHRIS: That is the power of a mnemonic device. Yeah. STEPH: Like, I know this is useful in some way, but I can't remember what it is. But yeah, that's wonderful. I love it. That's something that I haven't had to do in a long time, and I hadn't thought about. I need to do that more. Because you're right, especially changing projects or things like that, there are just some URLs that I don't need cached anymore; I don't want auto-completed. So yeah, okay. I just need to Fn-Delete it. I'll remember it. Here we go. I'm speaking this into the universe, so it'll be true. CHRIS: Just Fn-Delete it. STEPH: Your bit about the USB and always getting it wrong, you get it 50-50 [laughs] by getting it wrong, resonates so deeply with me and my capability with directions where I am just terrible whether I have to go right or left. My inner compass is going to get it wrong. And I've even tried to trick myself where I'm like, okay, I know I'm always wrong. So what if I do the opposite of what Stephanie would do? And it's still somehow wrong. [laughs] CHRIS: Somehow, your brain compensates and is like, oh, I know that we're going to do that. So let's...yeah, it's amazing the way these things happen. STEPH: Yep. I don't understand it. I've tried to trick the software, but I haven't figured out the right way. I should probably just learn and get better at directions. But here we are. Here we are. CHRIS: You just loosely referred to the software, but I think you're referring to the Steph software when you say that. STEPH: Yes. Oh yeah, Steph software totally. You got it. [laughs] CHRIS: Gotcha. Cool. Glad that I checked in on that because that's great. But shifting gears to something a little bit deeper in the technical space, this past week, we've been thinking about passwords within our organization at Sagewell. And we're trying to decide what we want to do. We had an initial card that came through and actually got most of the way to implemented to dial up our password strictness requirements. And as I saw that come through, I was like, oh, wait, actually, I would love to talk about this. And so we had the work that was coming through the PR that had been opened was a pretty traditional set of let's introduce some requirements on our passwords for complexity, so let's make it longer. We're going from; I think six was the default that Devise shipped with, so we're increasing that to, I think it was eight. And then let's say that it needs a number, and a special character, and an uppercase letter or something like that. I've recently read the NIST rules, so the National Institute of Standards and Technology, I think, is what they are. But they're the ones who define a set of rules around this or guidelines. But I think they are...I don't know if they are laws or what at this point. But they tell you, "This is what you should and shouldn't do." And I know that the password complexity stuff is on the don't do that list these days. So I was like, this is interesting, and then I wanted to follow through. Interestingly, right now, I've got the Trello boards up for The Bike Shed right now. But as a result, I can't look at the linked Trello card that is on the workboards because they're in different accounts. And Trello really has made my life more difficult than I wanted. But I'm going to pull this up elsewhere. So let's see. So NIST stuff, just to talk through that, we can include a link in the show notes to a nice summary. But what are the NIST password requirements? Eight character minimum, that's great. Change passwords only if there is evidence of a compromise. Screen new passwords against a list of known compromised passwords. That's a really interesting one. Skip password hints, limit the number of failed authentication attempts. These all sound great to me. The maximum password length should be at least 64 characters, so don't constrain how much someone can put in. If they want to have a very long password, let them go for it. Don't have any sort of required rotation. Allow copy and pasting or functionality that allows for password managers. And allow the use of all printable ASCII characters as well as all Unicode characters, including emojis. And that one really caught my attention. I was like, that sounds fun. I wish I could look at all the passwords in our database. I obviously can't because they're salted and encrypted, and hashed, and all those sorts of things where I'm like, I wonder if anybody's using emojis. I'm pretty sure we would just support it. But I'm kind of intrigued. STEPH: You said something in that list that caught my attention, and I just want to see if I heard it correctly. So you said only offer change password if compromised? Does that mean I can't just change my password if I want to? CHRIS: Sorry. Yeah, I think the phrasing here might be a little bit odd. So it's essentially a different way to phrase this requirement is don't require rotation of passwords every six or whatever months. Forgotten password that's still a reasonable thing to have in your application, probably a necessity in most applications. But don't auto-rotate passwords, so don't say, "Your password has expired after six months." STEPH: Got it. Okay, cool. That makes sense. Then the emojis, oh no, it's like, I mean, I use a password manager now, and thanks to several years ago where he shamed me into using one. Thank you. That was great. [laughs] CHRIS: I hope it was friendly shame, but yeah. STEPH: Yes, it was friendly; kind shame if that sounds like a weird sentence to say. But yes, it was a very positive change. And I can't go back now that I have a password manager in my life. Because yeah, now I'm thinking like, if I had emojis, I'd be like, oh great, now I have to think about how I was feeling at the time that then I introduced a new password. Was I happy? Was I angry? Is it a poop emoji? Is unicorn? What is it? [laughs] So that feels complicated and novel. You also mentioned on that list that going for more complexity in terms of you have to have uppercase; you have to have a particular symbol, things like that are not on the recommended list. And I didn't know that. I'm so accustomed to that being requirements for passwords and the idea of how we create something that is secure and less easy to guess or to essentially hack. So I'm curious about that one if you know any more details about it as to why that's not the standard anymore. CHRIS: Yeah, I think I have some ideas around it. My understanding is mostly that introducing the password complexity requirements while intended to prevent people from using very common things like names or their user name or things like that, it's like, no, no, no, you can't because we've now constrained the system in that way. It tends in practice to lead to people having a variety of passwords that they forget all the time, and then they're using the forgotten password flow more often. And it basically, for human and behavior reasons, increases the threat surface area because it means that they're not able to use...say someone has a password scheme in mind where it's like, well, my passwords are, you know, it's this common base, and then some number of things specific to the site. It's like, oh no, no, we require three special characters, so it's like they can't do their thing. And now they have to write it down on a Post-it Note because they're not going to remember it otherwise. Or there are a variety of ways in which those complexity requirements lead to behavior that's actually less useful. STEPH: Okay, so it's the Post-it Note threat vector that we have to be worried about. [laughs] CHRIS: Which is a very real threat factor. STEPH: I believe it. [laughs] Yes, I know people that keep lists of passwords on paper near their desk. [laughs] This is a thing. CHRIS: Yep, yep, yep. The other thing that's interesting is, as you think about it, password complexity requirements technically reduce the overall combinatoric space that the passwords can exist in. Because imagine that you're a password hacker, and you're like, I have no idea what this password is. All I have is an encrypted hashed salted value, and I'm trying to crack it. And so you know the algorithm, you know how many passes, you know potentially the salt because often that is available. I think it has to be available now that I think about that out loud. But so you've got all these pieces, and you're like, I don't know, now it's time to guess. So what's a good guess of a password? And so if you know the minimum number of characters is eight and, the maximum is 12 because that actually happens on a lot of systems, that's actually not a huge combinatoric space. And then if you say, oh, and it has to have a number, and it has to have an uppercase letter, and it has to have a special character, you're just reducing the number of possible options in that space. And so, although this is more like a mathematical thing, but in my mind, I'm like, yeah, wait, that actually makes things less secure because now there are fewer passwords to check because they don't meet the complexity requirements. So you don't even have to try them if you're trying to brute-force crack a password. STEPH: Yeah, you make a really good point that I hadn't really thought about because I've definitely seen those sites that, yeah, constrain you in terms of like, has to have a minimum, has to have a maximum, and I hadn't really considered the fact that they are constraining it and then reducing the values that it could be. I am curious, though, because then it doesn't feel right to have no limit in terms of, like, you don't want people then just spamming your sign up and then putting something awful in there that has a ridiculous length. So do you have any thoughts on that and providing some sort of length requirement or length maximum? CHRIS: Yeah, I think the idea is don't prevent someone who wants to put in a long passphrase, like, let them do that. But there is, the NIST guidelines specifically say 64 characters. Devise out of the box is 128, I believe. I don't think we tweaked that, and that's what we're at right now. So you can write an old-style tweet and that can be your password if that's what you want to do. But there is an upper limit to that. So there is a reasonable upper limit, but it should be very permissive to anyone who's like, I want to crank it up. STEPH: Cool. Cool. Yeah, I just wanted to validate that; yeah, having an upper bound is still important. CHRIS: Yeah, definitely. Important...it's more for implementation and our database having a reasonable size and those sorts of things. Although at the end of the day, the thing that we saw is the encrypted password. So I don't know if bcrypt would run slower on a giant body of text versus a couple of characters; that might be the impact. So it would be speed as opposed to storage space because you always end up with a fixed-length hash of the same length, as far as I understand it. But yeah, it's interesting little trade-offs like that where the complexity requirements do a good job of forcing people to not use very obvious things like password. Password does not fit nearly any complexity requirements. But we're going to try and deal with that in a different way. We don't want to try and prevent you from using password by saying you must use an uppercase letter and a special character and things that make real passwords harder as well. But it is an interesting trade-off because, technically, you're making the crackability easier. So it gets into the human and the technical and the interplay between them. Thinking about it somewhat differently as well, there's all this stuff about you should salt your passwords, then you should hash them. You should run them through a good password hashing algorithm. So we're using bcrypt right now because I believe that's the default that Devise ships with. I've heard good things about Argon2; I think is the name of the new cool kid on the block in terms of password hashing. That whole world is very interesting to me, but at the end of the day, we can just go with Devise's defaults, and I'll feel pretty good about that and have a reasonable cost factor. Those all seem like smart things. But then, as we start to think about the complexity requirements and especially as we start to interact with an audience like Sagewell's demographics where we're working with seniors who are perhaps less tech native, less familiar, we want to reduce the complexity there in terms of them thinking of and remembering their passwords. And so, rather than having those complexity requirements, which I think can do a good job but still make stuff harder, and how do you communicate the failure modes, et cetera, et cetera, we're switching it. And the things that we're introducing are we have increased the minimum length, so we're up to eight characters now, which is NIST's low-end recommended, so it's between 8 and 128 characters. We are capturing anytime a I forgot password reset attempt happens and the outcome of it. So we're storing those now in the database, and we're showing them to the admins. So our admin team can see if password reset attempts have happened and if they were successful. That feels like good information to keep around. Technically, we could get it from the logs, but that's deeply hidden away and only really accessible to the developers. So we're now surfacing that information because it feels like a particularly pertinent thing for us. We've introduced Rack::Attack. So we're throttling those attempts, and if someone tries to just brute force through that credential stuffing, as the terminology goes, we will lock them out so either based on IP address or the account that they're trying to log into. We also have Devise's lockable module enabled. So if someone tries to log in a bunch of times and fails, their account will go into a locked state, and then an admin can unlock it. But it gives us a little more control there. So a bunch of those are already in place. The new one, this is the one that I'm most excited about, is we're going to introduce Have I Been Pwned? And so, they have an API. We can hit it. It's a really interesting model as to how do we ask if a password has been compromised without giving them the password? And it turns out there's this fun sort of cryptographic handshake thing that happens. K-anonymity is apparently the mechanism or the underpinning technology or idea. Anyway, it's super cool; I'm excited to build it. It's going to be fun. But the idea there is rather than saying, "Don't use a password that might not be secure," it's, "Hey, we actually definitively know that your password has been cracked and is available in plaintext on the internet, so we're not going to let you use that one." STEPH: And that's part of the signup flow as to where you would catch that? CHRIS: So we're going to introduce on both signup and sign-in because a password can be compromised after a user signs up for our system. So we want to have it at any point. Obviously, we do not keep their plaintext password, so we can't do this retroactively. We can only do it at the point in time that they are either signing up or signing in because that's when we do have access to the password. We otherwise throw it away and keep only the hashed value. But we'll probably introduce it at both points. And the interesting thing is communicating this failure mode is really tricky. Like, "Hey, your password is cracked, not like here, not on our site, no, we're fine. Well, you should probably change your password. So here's what it means, there's actually this database that's called Have I Been Pwned? Don't worry; it's good, though. It's P-W-N-E-D. But that's fine." That's too many words to put on a page. I can't even say it here in a podcast. And so what we're likely to do initially is instrument it such that our admin team will get a notification and can see that a user's password has been compromised. At that point, we will reach out to them and then, using the magic of human conversation, try and actually communicate that and help them understand the ramifications, what they should do, et cetera. Longer-term, we may find a way to build up an FAQ page that describes it and then say, "Feel free to reach out if you have questions." But we want to start with the higher touch approach, so that's where we're at. STEPH: I love it. I love that you dove into how to explain this to people as well because I was just thinking, like, this is complicated, and you're going to freak people out in panic. But you want them to take action but not panic. Well, I don't know, maybe they should panic a little bit. [laughs] CHRIS: They should panic just the right amount. STEPH: Right.[laughs] So I like the starting with the more manual process of reaching out to people because then you can find out more, like, how did people react to this? What kind of questions did they ask? And then collect that data and then turn that into an FAQ page. Just, well done. CHRIS: We haven't quite done it yet. But I am very happy with the collection of ideas that we've come to here. We have a security firm that we're working with as well. And so I had my weekly meeting with them, and I was like, "Oh yeah, we also thought about passwords a bunch, and here's what we came up with." And I was very happy that they were like, "Yeah, that sounds like a good set." I was like, "Cool. All right, I feel good." I'm very happy that we're getting to do this. And there's an interesting sort of interplay between security theater and real security. And security theater, just to explain the phrase if anyone's unfamiliar with it, is things that look like security, so, you know, big green lock up in the top-left corner of the URL bar. That actually doesn't mean anything historically or now. But it really looks like it's very secure, right? Or password complexity requirements make you think, oh, this must be a very secure site. But for reasons, that actually doesn't necessarily prove that at all. And so we tried to find the balance of what are the things that obviously demonstrate our considerations around security to the user? At the end of the day, what are the things that actually will help protect our users? That's what I really care about. But occasionally, you got to play the security theater game. Every other financial institution on the internet kind of looks and feels a certain way in how they deal with passwords. And so will a user look at our seemingly laxer requirements or laxer approach to passwords and judge us for that and consider us less secure despite the fact that behind the scenes look at all the fun stuff we're doing for you? But it's an interesting question and interesting trade-off that we're going to have to spend time with. We may end up with the complexity requirements despite the fact that I would really rather we didn't. But it may be the sort of thing that there is not a good way to communicate the thought and decision-making process that led us to where we're at and the other things that we're doing. And so we're like, fine, we just got to put them in and try and do a great job and make that as usable of an experience as possible because usability is, I think, one of the things that suffers there. You didn't do one of the things on the list, or like, it's green for each of the ones that you did, but it's red for the one that you didn't. And your password and your password confirmation don't match, and you can't paste...it's very easy to make this wildly complex for users. STEPH: Security theater is a phrase that I don't think I've used, but the way you're describing it, I really like. And I have a solution for you: underneath the password where you have "We don't partake in security theater, and we don't have all the other fancy requirements that you may have seen floating around the internet and here's why," and then just drop a link to the episode. And, you know, people can come here and listen. It'll totally be great. It won't annoy anyone at all. [laughs] CHRIS: And it'll start, and they'll hear me yelling about Fn-Delete that weather.com URL. [laughter] STEPH: Okay, maybe fast forward then to the part about -- CHRIS: Drop them to the timestamp. That makes sense. Yep. Yep. STEPH: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [laughs] CHRIS: I like it. I think that's what we should do, yeah. Most features on the app should have a link to a Bike Shed episode. That feels true. STEPH: Excellent Easter egg. I'm into it. But yeah, I like all the thoughtfulness that y'all have put into this because I haven't had to think about passwords in this level of detail. And then also, yeah, switching over to when things start to change and start to move away, you're right; there's still that we need to help people then become comfortable with this new way and let them know that this is just as secure if not more secure. But then there's already been that standard that has been set for your expectations, and then how do you help people along that path? So yeah, seems like y'all have a lot of really great thoughtfulness going into it. CHRIS: Well, thank you. Yeah, it's frankly been a lot of fun. I really like thinking in this space. It's a fun sort of almost hobby that happens to align very well with my profession sort of thing. Actually, oh, I have one other idea that we're not going to do, but this is something that I've had in the back of my mind for a long time. So when we use bcrypt or Devise uses bcrypt under the hood, one of the things that it configures is the cost factor, which I believe is just the number of times that the password plus the salts and whatnot is run through the bcrypt algorithm. The idea there is you want it to be computationally difficult, and so by doing it multiple times, you increase that difficulty. But what I'd love is instead of thinking of it in terms of an arbitrary cost factor which I think is 12, like, I don't know what 12 means. I want to know it, in terms of dollars, how much would it cost to, like dollars and cents, to crack a password. Because, in theory, you can distribute this across any number of EC2 instances that you spin up. The idea of cracking a password that's a very map-reducible type problem. So let's assume that you can infinitely scale up compute on-demand; how much would it cost in dollars to break this password? And I feel like there's an answer. Like, I want that number to be like a million dollars. But as EC2 costs go down over time, I want to hold that line. I want to be like, a million dollars is the line that we want to have. And so, as EC2 prices go down, we need to increase our bcrypt cost factor over time to adjust for that and maintain the million dollar per password cracking sort of high bar. That's the dream. Swapping out the cost factor is actually really difficult. I've looked into it, and you have to like double encrypt and do weird stuff. So for a bunch of reasons, I haven't done this, but I just like that idea. Let's pin this to $1 value. And then, from there, decisions naturally flow out of it. But it's so much more of a real thing. A million dollars, I know what that means; 12, I don't know what 12 means. STEPH: A million-dollar password, I like it. I feel like -- CHRIS: We named the episode. STEPH: I was going to say that's a perfect title, A Million-Dollar Password. [laughs] CHRIS: A Million-Dollar Password. But with that wonderful episode naming cap there, I think I'm done rambling about passwords. What's up in your world, Steph? STEPH: One of the things that I've been chatting with folks lately is RailsConf is coming up; it's May 17 through the 19th. And it's been sort of like that casual conversation of like, "Hey, are you going? Are you going? Who's going? It's going to be great." And as people have asked like, "Are you going?" And I'm always like, "No, I'm not going." But then I popped on to the RailsConf website today because I was just curious. I wanted to see the schedule and the talks that are being given. And I keep forgetting that there's the in-person version, but there's also the home edition. And I was like, oh, I could go, I could do this. [laughs] And I just forget that that is something that is just more common now for conferences where you can attend them virtually, and that is just really neat. So I started looking a little more closely at the talks. And I'm really excited because we have a number of thoughtboters that are giving a talk at RailsConf this year. So there's a talk being given by Fernando Perales that's called Open the Gate a Little: Strategies to Protect and Share Data. There's also a talk being given by Joël Quenneville: Your Test Suite is Making Too Many Database Calls. I'm very excited; just that one is near and dear to my heart, given the current client experiences that I'm having. And then there's another one from someone who just joined thoughtbot, Christopher "Aji" Slater, Your TDD Treasure Map. So we'll be sure to include a link to those for anyone that's curious. But it's a stellar lineup. I mean, I'm always impressed with RailsConf talks. But this one, in particular, has me very excited. Do you have any plans for RailsConf? Do you typically wait for them to come out later and then watch them, or what's your MO? CHRIS: Historically, I've tended to watch the conference recordings after the fact. I went one year. I actually met Christopher "Aji" Slater at that very RailsConf that I went to, and I believe Joël Quenneville was speaking at that one. So lots of everything old is new again. But yeah, I think I'll probably catch it after the fact in this case. I'd love to go back in person at some point because I really do like the in-person thing. I'm thrilled that there is the remote option as well. But for me personally, the hallway track and hanging out and meeting folks is a very exciting part. So that's probably the mode that I would go with in the future. But I think, for now, I'm probably just going to watch some talks as they come out. STEPH: Yeah, that's typically what I've done in the past, too, is I kind of wait for things to come out, and then I go through and make a list of the ones that I want to watch, and then, you know, I can make popcorn at home. It's delightful. I can just get cozy and have an evening of RailsConf talks. That's what normal people do on Friday nights, right? That's totally normal. [laughs] CHRIS: I mean, yeah, maybe not the popcorn part. STEPH: No popcorn? CHRIS: But not that I'm opposed to popcorn just —- STEPH: Brussels sprouts? What do you need? [laughs] CHRIS: Yeah, Brussels sprouts, that's what it is. Just sitting there eating handfuls of Brussels sprouts watching Ruby conference talks. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I do love Brussels sprouts, just to throw it out there. I don't want it to be out in the ether that I don't like them. I got an air fryer, and so I can air fry Brussels sprouts. And they're delicious. I mean, I like them regardless. But that is a really fantastic way to cook them at home. So I'm a big fan. STEPH: All right, I'm moving you into the category of fancy friends, fancy friends with an air fryer. CHRIS: I wasn't already in your category of fancy friends? STEPH: [laughs] I didn't think you'd take it that way. I'm sorry to break it to you. [laughter] CHRIS: I'm actually a little hurt that I'm now in the category of fancy friends. It makes a lot of sense that I wasn't there before. So I'll just deal with...yeah, it's fine. I'm fine. STEPH: It's a weird rubric that I'm running over here. Pivoting away quickly, so I don't have to explain the categorization for fancy friends, I saw something in the Ruby Weekly Newsletter that had just come out. And it's one of those that I see surface every so often, and I feel like it's a nice reminder because I know it's something that even I tend to forget. And so I thought it'd be fun just to resurface it here. And then, we can also provide a link to the wonderful blog post that's written by Benito Serna. And it's the difference between count, length, and size and an association with ActiveRecord. So for folks that would love a refresher, so count, that's a method that's always going to perform a SQL count query. So even if the collection has already been loaded, then calling count is always going to execute a database query. So this is the one that's just like, watch out, avoid it. You're always going to hit your database when you use this one. And then next is length. And so, length loads the whole collection into memory and then returns that length to the number of items in that collection. If the collection has been loaded, then it's not going to issue a database call. And then it's just still going to use...it's going to delegate to that Ruby length method and let you know how many records are in that collection. So that one is a little bit better because then that way, if it's already loaded, at least you're not going to have a database call. And then next is the size method, which is just the one that's more highly recommended that you use because this one does have a nice safety net that is built-in because first, it's going to check if we need to perform a database call, if the records have been loaded or not. So if the collection has not been loaded, so we haven't executed a database query and stored the result, then size is going to perform a database query. Specifically, it's using that SQL count under the hood. And if the collection has been loaded, then a database call is not issued, and then going to use the Ruby length method to then return the number of records. So it just helps you prevent unnecessary database calls. And it's the reason that that one is recommended over using count, which is going to always issue a call. And then also to avoid length where you can because it's going to load the whole collection into memory, and we want to avoid that. So it was a nice refresher. I'll be sure to include a link in the show notes. But yeah, I find that I myself often forget about the difference in count and size. And so if I'm just in the console and I just want to know something, that I still reach for count. It is still a default for mine. But then, if I'm writing production code, then I will be more considered as to which one I'm using. CHRIS: I feel like this is one of those that I've struggled to lock into my head, but as you're describing it right now, I think I've got, again, another mnemonic device that we can lock on to. So I know that SQL uses the keyword count, so count that's SQL definitely. Length I know that because I use that on other stuff. And so it's size that is different and therefore special. That all seems good. Cool, locking that in my brain along with Fn-Delete. I have two things that are now firmly locked in. So you were just mentioning being in the console and working with this. And one of the things that I've noticed a lot with folks that are newer to ActiveRecord and the idea of relations and the fact that they're lazy, is that that concept is very hard to grasp when working in a console because at the console, they don't seem lazy. The minute you type out user.where some clause, and the minute you type that and hit enter in the console, Ruby is going to do its normal thing, which is like, okay, cool, I want to...I forget what it is that IRB or any of the REPLs are going to do, but it's either inspect or to_s or something like that. But it's looking for a representation that it can display in the console. And ActiveRecord relations will typically say like, "Oh, cool, you need the records now because you want to show it like an array because that's what inspect is doing under the hood." So at the console, it looks like ActiveRecord is eager and will evaluate the query the minute you type it, but that's not true. And this is a critical thing that if you can think about it in that way and the fact that ActiveRecord relations are lazy and then take advantage of it, you can chain queries, you can build them up, you can break that apart. You can compose them together. There's really magical stuff that falls out of that. But it's interesting because sort of like a Heisenberg where the minute you go to look at it in the REPL, it's like, oh, it is not lazy; it is eager. It evaluates it the minute I type the query. But that's not true; that's actually the REPL tricking you. I will often just throw a semicolon at the end of it because I'm like, I don't want to see all that noise. Just give me the relation. I want the relation, not the results of executing that query. So if you tack a semicolon at the end of the line, that tells Ruby not to print the thing, and then you're good to go from there. STEPH: That's a great pro-tip. Yeah, I've forgotten about the semicolon. And I haven't been using that in my workflow as much. So I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah, I'm sure that's part of the thing that's added to my confusion around this, too, or something that has just taken me a while to lock it in as to which approach I want to use for when I'm querying data or for when I need to get a particular count, or length, or size. And by using all three, I'm just confusing myself more. So I should really just stick to using size. There's also a fabulous article by Nate Berkopec that's titled Three ActiveRecord Mistakes That Slow Down Rails Apps. And he does a fabulous job of also talking about the differences of when to use size and then some of the benefits of when you might use count. The short version is that you can use count if you truly don't care about using any of those records. Like, you're not going to do anything with them. You don't need to load them, like; you truly just want to get a count. Then sure, because then you're issuing a database query, but then you're not going to then, in a view, very soon issue another database query to collect those records again. So he has some really great examples, and I'll be sure to include a link to his article as well. Speaking of Ruby tidbits and kind of how this particular article about count, length, and size came across my view earlier today, Ruby Weekly is a wonderful newsletter. And I feel like I don't know if I've given them a shout-out. They do a wonderful job. So if you haven't yet checked out Ruby Weekly, I highly recommend it. There are just always really great, interesting articles either about stuff that's a little bit more like cutting edge or things that are being released with newer versions, or they might be just really helpful tips around something that someone learned, like the difference between count, length, and size, and I really enjoy it. So I'll also be sure to include a link in the show notes for anyone that wants to check that out. They also do something that I really appreciate where when you go to their website, you have the option to subscribe, but I am terrible about subscribing to stuff. So you can still click and check out the latest issue, which I really appreciate because then, that way, I don't feel obligated to subscribe, but I can still see the content. CHRIS: Oh yeah. Ruby Weekly is fantastic. In fact, I think Peter Cooper is the person behind it, or Cooperpress as the company goes. And there is a whole slew of newsletters that they produce. So there's JavaScript Weekly, there's Ruby Weekly, there's Node Weekly, Golang Weekly, React Status, Postgres Weekly. There's a whole bunch of them. They're all equally fantastic, the same level of curation and intentional content and all those wonderful things. So I'm a big fan. I'm subscribed to a handful of them. And just because I can't go an episode without mentioning inbox zero, if you are the sort of person that likes to defend the pristine nature of your email inbox, I highly recommend Feedbin and their ability to set up a special email address that you can use to then turn it into an RSS feed because that's magical. Actually, these ones might already have an RSS feed under the hood. But yeah, RSS is still alive. It's still out there. I love it. It's great. And that ends my thoughts on that matter. STEPH: I have what I feel is a developer confession. I don't think I really appreciate RSS feeds. I know they're out there in the ether, and people love them. And I just have no emotion, no opinion attached to them. So one day, I think I need to enjoy the enrichment that is RSS feeds, or maybe I'll hate it. Who knows? I'm reserving judgment. Either way, I don't think I will. [laughs] But I don't want to box future Stephanie in. CHRIS: Gotta maintain that freedom. STEPH: On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeee!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris evaluates the pros and cons between using Sidekiq or Active Job with Sidekiq. He sees exceptions everywhere. Steph talks about an SSL error that she encountered recently. It's officially spooky season, y'all! sidekiq-symbols (https://github.com/aprescott/sidekiq-symbols) Transcript: CHRIS: Additional radiation just makes Spider-Man more powerful. STEPH: [laughs] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. Hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: Fall is in the air. It's one of those, like, came out of nowhere. I knew it was coming. I knew it was going to happen. But now it's time for pumpkin beer and pumpkin spice lattes, and exclusively watching the movie Hocus Pocus for the next month or so or some variation of those themes. But unrelated to that, I did a thing that I do once, let's call it every year or so, where I had to make the evaluation between Sidekiq or Active Job with Sidekiq, as the actual implementation as the background job engine that is running. And I just keep running through this same cycle. To highlight it, Active Job is the background job system within Rails. It is a nice abstraction that allows you to connect to any of a number of them, so I think Delayed Job is one. Sidekiq is one. Resque is probably another. I'm sure there's a bunch of others. But historically, I've almost always used Sidekiq. Every project I've worked on has used Sidekiq. But the question is do you use Active Job with the adapter set to Sidekiq and then you're sort of living in both worlds, or do you lean in entirely and you use Sidekiq? And so that would mean that your jobs are defined to include Sidekiq::Worker because that's the actual thing that provides the magic as opposed to inheriting from Application Job. And then do you accept all of the trade-offs therein? And every time I go back and forth. And I'm like, well, but I want this feature, but I don't want that feature. But I want these things. So I've made a decision, but I want to talk ever so briefly through the decision points that were part of it. Have you done this back and forth? Are you familiar with the annoying choice that exists here? STEPH: It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to make that choice. I'm usually joining projects where that decision has already been made. So I can't think of a recent time that I've thought through it. And my current project is using that combination of where we are using Active Job and Sidekiq. CHRIS: So I think there's even a middle ground there where that was the configuration that I'd set up on the project that I'm working on. But you can exist in both worlds. And you can selectively opt for certain background jobs to be fully Sidekiq. And if you do that, then instead of saying, "Performlater," You say, "Performasync." And there are a couple of other configurations. It gives you access to the full Sidekiq API. And you can do things like hey, Sidekiq, here's the maximum number of retries or a handful of other things. But then you have to trade away a bunch of the niceties that Active Job gives. So as an example, one thing that Active Job provides that's really nice is the use of GlobalID. So GlobalID is a feature that they added to Rails a while back. And it's a way to uniquely identify a given record within your system such that when you say performlater, you can say, InvitationMailer.performlater and then pass it a user record so like an instance of a user model. And what will happen in the background is that gets serialized, but instead of serializing the whole user object because we don't actually want that, it will do the GlobalID magic. And so it'll turn into, I think it's GID:// so almost like a URL. But then it'll be, I think, your application name/model name down the road. And the Perform method actually gets invoked via the background system. Then you will just get handed that user record back, but it's not the same instance of the user record. It sort of freezes and thaws it. It's really nice. It's a wonderful little feature. Sidekiq wants nothing to do with that. STEPH: I'm so glad that you highlighted that feature because that was on my mind; I think this week where I was reviewing...somebody had made the comment where they were concerned about passing a record to a job and saying how that wouldn't play nicely with Sidekiq. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, yeah, that's right. But then I was also I'm pretty sure this got addressed, though. And I couldn't recall specifically if it was a Sidekiq enhancement or if it was a Rails enhancement. So you just cleared something up for me that I had not had time to confirm myself. So thanks. CHRIS: Well, to be clear, this works if you are using Active Job with Sidekiq as the adapter, but not if you are using a true Sidekiq worker. So if you opt-out of the Active Job flow, then you have to say, "Perform_async," and if you pass it a record, that's not going to work out particularly nicely. The other similar thing is that Sidekiq does not allow the use of keyword args, which, I'm going, to be honest, I really like keyword arguments, especially for background jobs or shuttling data through your system. And there's almost a lazy evaluation. I want some nicety to make sure that when I am putting something into a background job that I'm actually using the correct call signature, essentially passing the correct data in the correct shape. Am I passing a record, or am I passing the ID? Am I passing a list of options or a single option? Those sort of trade-offs that are really easy to subtly get wrong. I came around on this one because I realized although Active Job does support keyword arguments, the way it does that is it just has a JSON serialization format for them. So a keyword argument turns into a positional array with an associated hash that allows for the lookup or whatever. Basically, again, they handle the details. You get to use keyword args, which is great, with the exception that when you're actually calling performlater, that method performlater is a method missing type magic method. So it does not actually check the keyword arguments at that point. You're basically just passing an options hash as opposed to true keyword arguments that would error because they don't match up. And so when I figured that out, I was like, oh, never mind. This doesn't actually do the thing that I care about. It's a little bit nicer in terms of the signature of the method when you're defining your background job itself, but it doesn't actually do any logical checking. It doesn't give me any safety or robustness within my system. So I don't care about that. I did find a project called sidekiq-symbols, which does some things under the hood to how Sidekiq serializes and deserializes jobs, which I think gives largely the same behavior as Active Job. So I can now define my Sidekiq jobs with keyword arguments. Things will work. I can't use GlobalID. That's still out. But that's fine. I can do a little helper method that basically does the same thing as GlobalID or at least close approximation. But sidekiq-symbols lets me have keyword arg-like signatures in my methods; basically, it is. But again, it doesn't actually do any check-in when I'm enqueueing a job, and I am sad about that. STEPH: Yeah, that's another interesting distinction. And I'm unsurprisingly with you that I would favor having keyword args and having that additional safety in place. Okay, so I've been keeping track. And so far, it sounds like we have two points because I'm doing a little scorecard here between Active Job and Sidekiq. And we have two points in favor of Active Job because they offer a GlobalID, which then allows us to pass in a record, and then it takes care of the serialization for us. And then also, keyword args, which I agree with you that's a really nice feature to have in place as well. So I'm curious, so it sounded like you're leaning towards Active Job, but I don't want to spoil the ending. CHRIS: Yes, I could see why that's what you would be taking away from the conversation thus far. So again, just to reiterate, Active Job and Sidekiq with this sidekiq-symbols extension they both support keyword args, kind of. They support defining your job with keyword args and then enqueueing a job passing something that looks like keyword args. But it ends up...nobody's actually checking anything, so it's mostly like a syntactic nicety as opposed to any sort of correctness, which is still nicer, but it's not the thing that I actually want. Either way, nobody supports it, so it is not available to me. Therefore, it is not a consideration point. The GlobalID thing is nice, but it is really, again, it's a nicety more than anything. I have gone, and I'm leaning in the direction of full Sidekiq and Sidekiq everywhere as opposed to Active Job in most cases, but then Sidekiq when we need it. And that's because Sidekiq just has a lot more power and a lot more functionality. So, in particular, Sidekiq has a feature which allows you to say...it's a block that you put at the top of your Sidekiq job that says retries exhausted or something. I think Sidekiq retries exhausted is the actual full name of that at that point, which is really unfortunate in my mind, but anyway, I'll deal. At that point, you know that Sidekiq has exhausted all of the retries, and you can treat it as failed. I'm going, to be honest, I went on a quest to find a way to say, hey, I'm going to put some work into the background. It's really important for me to know if this work succeeds or if it fails. It's very easy to know if it succeeds because that just happens in-line in the method. But we can have an exception raised at basically any point; Sidekiq does a great job of catching those, of retrying, of having fundamental mechanisms there. But this is the best that I can get for this job failed. And so Active Job, as far as I can tell, does not have anything for this in order to say, yep, we are done. We are not going to keep working on this. This work has failed. It is dead. Dead is; actually, I think the more correct term for where we're at because failed is a temporary state, and then you retry after a failure. Whereas dead is, this has gone through all of its retries, and it will never be run again. Therefore, we should treat this as not having run. And in my case, the thing that I want to do is inform the user that this operation that we were trying to do on their behalf has not succeeded, will not succeed. And please reach out or otherwise deal with the fact that we were unable to do the thing that they asked us to do. That feels like a really important thing for me to be able to do, to be able to communicate back to my users. This is one of those situations where I'm looking at the available options, and I'm like, I feel like I can't be the only one who wants to know when something goes wrong. This feels like a thing that's important. But this is the best example that I've found, the Sidekiq retries exhausted block. And unfortunately, when I'm using it, it gets yielded the Sidekiq JSON blob deserialized, so it's like Ruby hash. But it's still like this blob of data. It's not the same data that gets passed into perform. And so, as a result, when I want to look up the record that was associated with it, I have to do this nested dig into the available hash of data. And it just feels like this is not a well-paved path. This is not something that is a deeply thought about or recommended use case. But again, I don't feel like I'm doing something weird here. Am I doing something weird, Steph, wanting to tell my users when I was unable to do the thing they asked me to do? [chuckles] STEPH: That feels like a very rhetorical question. [laughs] CHRIS: It does. I apologize. I'm leading the witness. But in your sincere heart of hearts, what do you think? STEPH: No, that certainly doesn't sound weird. I'm actually thinking back to some of the jobs that cause me stress in regards to knowing when they failed and then having that communication of knowing that we've exhausted all the retries. And, of course, knowing when those retries are exhausted is incredibly helpful. I am intrigued, though,, because you're highlighting that Active Job doesn't have the same option around setting the retry. And I'm trying to recall exactly how it's set. But I feel like I have set the retry count for Active Job. And maybe, as you mentioned before, that's because it's an abstraction, or I'm not sure if Active Job actually has that native support. So I feel a little confused there where I think my default instinct would have been Active Job does have that retry capability. But it sounds like you've discovered otherwise. CHRIS: I'm not actually sure what Active Jobs core retry logic or option looks like. So fundamentally, as far as I understand it, Active Job is an abstraction. And under the hood, you're always connecting an adapter. So it's either going to be Sidekiq, or Resque, or Delayed Job, or other. And each of those systems, whichever system you have as the adapter, is the one that's actually going to be managing retries. And so I know Sidekiq happens to have as a default 25 retries. And that spans, I think it's a two-week exponential back off. And Sidekiq has some very robust logic that they have implemented as the way retries exist within Sidekiq. I'm not sure what that would look like if you're trying to express it abstractly because it is slightly different. I know there was some good work that was done on Sidekiq to allow the Sidekiq options that's a method at the top level of the job, even if it's an Active Job job to express the retries. So that may be what you've seen, or there may be truly an abstraction that exists within Active Job, and then each adapter needs to know how to handle retries. But frankly, the what can Sidekiq do that Active Job can't? There's a whole bunch of stuff around limiting when you would retry limiting, enqueuing a job if there already exists one, when and how do those records get locked. There's a whole bunch of stuff. Sidekiq has a lot of power under the hood. And so if we want to be leaning into that, that's why I'm leaning towards let's just be Sidekiq all the time. Let's become Sidekiq experts. Let's accept that as a deep architectural decision within the app as opposed to just relying on the abstraction. Because fundamentally, if we're just using Active Job, we're not going to have access to the full power of Sidekiq or whatever the underlying system is, so sort of that decision that I'm making, but I don't know specifically around the retries. STEPH: Okay, thanks. That's really helpful. It's been a while since I've had to make this decision. I'm really enjoying you sharing your adventure because I'm trying to think what's the risk? If you don't use Active Job, what are the trade-offs? And you'd mentioned some of them around the GlobalID and keyword args, which are some niceties. But overall, if you don't go with the abstraction, if you lean into Sidekiq, the risk is then you want to migrate to a different enqueuing service. And something that we talk about is mitigating that risk, so then you can swap it out. That's also something I have never done or encountered where we've had to make that change. And it feels like a very low risk in my mind. CHRIS: Sidekiq feels like the thing you would migrate to, not a thing you would migrate from. It feels like it is the most powerful. And if anything, I expect at some point we'll be upgrading to Sidekiq pro or enterprise or whatever the higher versions that you pay for, but you get more features there. So in that sense, that is the calculation. That's the risk trade-off in my mind is that we're leaning into this technology and coupling ourselves more closely to it. But I don't see that as one that will reassess in the same way that people talk about Active Record and it being an ORM. And it's like, oh, we're abstracting the database underneath, and I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm always using Postgres. Please do not take Postgres. I'm not going to switch over to MySQL next week. That's totally fine if you start on MySQL. It's unlikely you're going to port over to Postgres. We may port to an entirely…like it's a Cassandra column store with a Kafka queue, I don't know, something weird down the road. But it's not going to be swapping out Postgres for MySQL or vice versa. Like you said, that's probably not a change that's going to happen. But that I think is the consideration. The other consideration I have in my mind is Active Job is the abstraction that exists within Rails. And so I can treat it as the lowest common denominator, and folks joining the project, it's nice to have that familiarity. So perform_later is the method on the Active Job jobs, and it has a certain shape to it. People may be familiar with that. Mailers will automatically use Active Job just implicitly under the hood. And so there's a familiarity, a discoverability. It's just kind of up the middle choice. And so if I can stick with that, I think there's a nicety there. But in this case, I think I'm choosing I would like the power and consistency on the Sidekiq side, and so I'm leaning into that. STEPH: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I liked the other example you provided around things that were not likely to swap out and Postgres, MySQL, your database being one of them. And in favor of an example that I do have for something that...I do enjoy wrapping. It's not something that I adhere to strictly, but I do enjoy it when I have the space to make this choice. So I do enjoy wrapping HTTPClients, not just because then I can swap it out for a different HTTPClient, which frankly, that's also rare that I do that. Once I choose an HTTPClient, I'm probably pretty happy, and I don't need to swap it out. But I really like being able to extend to the API specifically if they don't handle error responses in a way that I would like to or if they raise, and then I want to change the API to have a more thoughtful interface and where I don't have to rescue those errors. But instead, I can interact with this object that then represents an error state. So that was just one example that came to mind for things that I do enjoy having an abstraction around and not just so I can swap it out because that feels like a very low risk, but more frankly, so I can extend the API. CHRIS: I definitely share the I almost always wrap APIs, or I try and hide whatever the implementation detail whether it be HTTPParty, or Faraday or whatever it is that I'm using and trying to hide that deeply within the system. And then I have whatever API client that we define. And that's what we're interacting with. It's interesting that you bring up errors and exceptions there because that's the one other thing that has caused me this...what I'm describing now seems perhaps like, oh, here's just a list of pros and cons, a simple decision was made, and there we are. This represents some real soul searching on my part, if we will. And one of the last things that I ran into that was just so frustrating is that Sidekiq is explicitly built around the idea of exceptions; Sidekiq retries if there is an exception raised in the job, otherwise, it treats it as success, and that's it. That is the entirety of it. That is the story. But if you raise an exception in a job, then you can't test that job because now it's raising an exception. You can't test retries or this retry exhausted block that I'm trying to lean into. I'm like, I want to put that in a feature spec and say, oh, this job goes in the background, but it's in a failure state, and therefore, the user sees the failure message. Sorry, I can't do that because the only way to actually fail a job is via an exception. And I've actually gone to some links in this application to try to introduce more structured data flow. I've talked a bunch about the command objects and the dry-monads and all those things. And I've really loved them where I've gotten to use them. But then I run into one of these edge cases where Sidekiq is like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And so now I have parts of my system that very purposefully return data as opposed to raising an exception. And I just have to turn around and directly raise that failure as an exception, and it just feels less expressive. I actually just ran into the identical thing with Pundit. They have a little bit better control over it; I can choose whether or not I want the raising version or not. But I see exceptions everywhere, and I want a little more discrete data flow. [chuckles] That is my dream. So anyway, I chose Sidekiq is the summary here. And slowly, we're going to migrate entirely to Sidekiq. And I'm going to be totally fine with it. And I'm done griping now. STEPH: This is your own little October Halloween movie, that I see exceptions everywhere. CHRIS: They're so spooky. STEPH: [laughs] That's cool about Pundit. I'm not sure I knew that, that you get to essentially turn on or off that exception flow behavior. On one hand, I'm like, that's nice. You get the option. On the other hand, I'm like, well, let's just not do it. Let's just never raise on people. But at least they give people options; that seems really cool. CHRIS: They do give the option. I think you can choose different strategies there. And also, if we're being honest, I'm newer to Pundit. And I used a different thing, which was to get the Policy Object and ask it a question. I wanted to ask, is this enabled or not? Can a user do this or not? That should not raise an exception. I'm just asking a question. We're just being real chill about this. I just want to know some information. Let's flow some data through our system. We don't need exceptions for that. STEPH: Why are you yelling at me? I just have a question. [laughs] CHRIS: Yeah. I figured out how to be easy on that front. Sidekiq apparently has no be easy mode, but that's fine. You know what? We're going to make it work, and it's going to be fine. But it is interesting deciding which of these facets of the system that I'm building do I really care about? Which are the ones where I'm like, whatever, just pick something, and we'll move forward, it's not a big deal? Versus, we're actually going to be doing a lot of work in the background. This is the thing that I care about deeply. I want to know about failure and success. I want to really understand that and have a robust answer to what our architecture looks like there. Similarly, Pundit for authorization. I believe that authorization will be a critical aspect of our system. It's typically a pretty important thing. But for us, I think we're going to have different types of users who can log in and see different subsets of data and having a consistent and concrete way that we have chosen to implement that we are able to test, that we're able to verify. I think that's another core competency within the app. But you only get to have so many of those. You can only be really good at a couple of things. And so I'm in that place where I'm like, which are our top five when I say are the things that I care a lot about? And then which are the things where I'm like, I don't know, whatever, just run with it? STEPH: Just a little bit ago, I came so close to singing because you said the I want to know phrase again. And that, I'm realizing, [laughs] is a trigger for me and a song where I want to sing. I held it back this time. CHRIS: It's smart. You got to learn anytime you sing on mic that is part of the permanent record. STEPH: Edward Loveall at thoughtbot, since I sang in a recent episode, did the delightful thing where then he grabbed that clip of where you talk a little bit, and then I sing and then encouraged everyone to go listen to it. And in which I responded, like, I would highly recommend that you save your ears and don't listen to it. But yes, singing on the mic is a thing. I do it from time to time. I can't hold it back. CHRIS: We all do. But since it doesn't seem that you're going to sing in this moment, I think I can probably wrap up my Odyssey of choosing between Sidekiq and Active Job. I hope those details were useful to anyone other than me. It was an adventure, so I figured I'd share it. But yeah, that about wraps it up on my side. Mid-roll Ad And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is leading-edge application performance monitoring that's designed to help Rails developers quickly find and fix performance issues without having to deal with the headache or overhead of enterprise platform feature bloat. With a developer-centric UI and tracing logic that ties bottlenecks to source code, you can quickly pinpoint and resolve those performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, memory bloat, and much more. Scout's real-time alerting and weekly digest emails let you rest easy knowing Scout's on watch and resolving performance issues before your customers ever see them. Scout has also launched its new error monitoring feature add-on for Python applications. Now you can connect your error reporting and application monitoring data on one platform. See for yourself why developers call Scout their best friend and try our error monitoring and APM free for 14 days; no credit card needed. And as an added-on bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. Learn more at scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: So, I would love to talk about an SSL error that I encountered recently. So one of the important processes in our application is sending data to another system. And while sending data to that other system, we started seeing the following error that the read "Certificate verify failed." And then in parens, it states, "Unable to get local issuer certificate." So upon seeing that error, I initially thought, okay, something is wrong with their SSL certificate or their SSL configuration. And that's not something that I have control over and can fix. So we should reach out and let them know to take a look at their SSL config. But it turns out that their team already knew about the issue. They had recently updated or renewed their SSL cert, and they saw our messages were no longer being processed, and they were reaching out to us for help. So at that point, I'm still pretty sure that it's related to something on their end, and it's not something that I can really fix on our end. But we can help them troubleshoot. Maybe there's a workaround that we can add to still get messages processing while they're looking into their SSL config. It seemed like they still just needed help. So it was something that was still worth diving into. So going back to the first error, I want to talk a little bit about it because I realized that I understand SSL just enough, just the surface to get by as a developer. But then, every time that I run into a specific error with it, then I really have to refresh my understanding as to what could be wrong, so then I can troubleshoot more effectively. So for anyone that could use a refresher on that certificate verification process, when your browser or your server is connecting to a site that uses SSL, then your browser server, whichever one you're using, is going to download that site certificate and verify a couple of things. So it's going to check does the certificate contain the domain name of the website? So essentially, you gave us a certificate. Is this your certificate? Does it match the site that we're connecting to? Is this cert issued by a trusted certificate authority? So did someone that we trust give you this certificate? And is the cert still valid, or has it expired? So that part is pretty straightforward. The second part, "Unable to get local issuer certificate," so that's the part I was less certain about. And I took this to mean that they had passed two of those three checks that their cert included the site's name, and it had not expired. But for some reason, we aren't able to determine if their cert was issued by someone that we should trust. So following that journey, my next question was, so what are they giving us? So this is a tool that I don't get to use very often, but I reached for OpenSSL and, specifically, the s_client command, which connects to a specified domain and prints all certificates in the certificate chain. You may already know this, but the certificate chain is basically a fancy way of saying, show me all the certificates necessary to prove your site certificate was authorized by a trusted certificate authority. CHRIS: I did not know that. STEPH: Okay, I honestly didn't either. [laughs] CHRIS: I liked that you thought I would, though. So thank you, but no. [chuckles] STEPH: Yeah, it's one of those areas of SSL where I know just enough. But that was something that was new to me. I thought there was a site certificate, and I didn't realize that there is this chain of certificates that has to be honored. So going back and looking through that output of the certificate chain, that's what highlighted to me that their server was giving us their certificate and saying, hey, you should trust our site certificate. It's legit because it was authorized by, let's say, XYZ certificate. And so if it were a proper certificate chain, then they would give us that XYZ cert. And essentially, we can use this chain of certificates to get back to a trusted authority that then everybody knows that we can trust. However, they weren't actually giving us a reference certificate; they were giving us something else. So essentially, they were saying, "Hey, look at our certificate and look at this very trustworthy reference that we have." But they're actually failing to give us that reference. So to bring it all home, we can download that intermediate certificate that they reference; that is something that is publicly accessible. That's why we're able to then verify each certificate that's provided in that chain. We could go and download that intermediate certificate from that certificate authority. We could combine that with their site-specific certificate, include that in our request to their system, and then complete the certificate chain. And boom, we're back in business. But it was quite a journey. CHRIS: That is quite the journey. And yeah, I definitely knew very little of that, although everything you're saying makes sense. And I have a bunch of cubbyholes in my brain for SSL knowledge. And the words you said all fit into the spaces that I have in my brain, but I didn't know a bunch of those pieces. So thank you for sharing that. SSL and cryptography, more generally or password hashing or things like that, occupy this special place in my brain where I'm both really interested in them. And I will occasionally research them. If I see a blog article, I'll be like, oh yeah, I want to read more about this password hashing. And what's a Salt? And what's a Pepper? And what are we doing there? And what is BCrypt versus SCrypt? What are all these things? This is cool. And almost the arms race on the two sides of how do we demonstrate trust in a secure manner on the internet? But at the same time, I am not allowed to do anything with this information. I outsource this as much as humanly possible because it's one of those things that you just should not do yourself and SSL perhaps even more so. So I have configured aspects of my password hashing. But I 100% just lean on the fact that Let's Encrypt exists in the world. And prior to that, it was a little more work. But frankly, earlier on in my career, I wasn't dealing with the SSL parts of things. But I'm so grateful to Let's Encrypt as a project that exists. And now, on almost every platform that I work with, there's just a checkbox for please do the SSL work for me, make it good, make it work, and then I will be happy. And I'm so glad that that organization exists and really pushed the envelope also. I forget what it was, but it was only like three years ago where SSL was not actually nearly as common as it is now. And now it is pervasive and everywhere. And all of the sites have it, and so that is a wonderful thing. But I don't actually know much. I know that I should have it. I must have it. I should force it. That's true. So I push that out… STEPH: Hello. CHRIS: Are you trying to get me to sing? [chuckles] STEPH: [laughs] No, but I did want to know if you get the reference, the Salt-N-Pepa. CHRIS: Push It Real Good the song? Yeah, okay. STEPH: Yeah, you got it. [chuckles] CHRIS: I will just say the lyrics. I shall not sing the lyrics. I would say that, though, that yes, yes, they do that. STEPH: Thank you for acknowledging my very terrible reference. Circling back just a little bit too in regards to...I'm with you; this is a world that is not one that I am very deeply technical in and something that I learned a fair amount while troubleshooting this particular SSL error. And it was very interesting. But there's also that concern where it's like, that was interesting. And we worked around the issue, but this also feels very fragile. So we still haven't fixed it on their end where they are sending the wrong certificate. So then that's why we had to do more investigative work, and then download the certificate that they meant to send us, and then send back a complete certificate chain so that we don't have this error anymore. But should they change anything about their certificate, should they renew anything like that, then suddenly, we're going to break again. And then, the next developer is going to have to go through the same journey. And this wasn't a light journey. This was a good half-day journey to figure out what was going on and to spend the time, and then to also get that fix out to production. So it's a meaningful task that I don't want anyone else to have to go through. But we are relying on someone else updating their configuration. So, on one hand, we're in a good spot until they are able to update. But on the other hand, I wrote a heck of a commit message for the next person just describing like, friend, just grab some coffee if we're going to chat. It's a very small code change, but you need to know the scoop. So should you need to replicate this because they've changed something, or if this happens…because we work with a number of systems that we send data to. So if someone else should run into a similar issue, they will understand some of the troubleshooting techniques that I used and be able to look up that chain and find out if there's a missing cert or something else they need to provide. So it feels like a win, but I'm also nervous for future selves, future developers. So there's another approach that I haven't mentioned yet, but it was often a top recommendation for when dealing with SSL errors. And specifically, it was turning off SSL verification. And I saw that, and I was like, well, that won't work. I'm definitely sending sensitive, important data. And I need to verify that who I'm sending this to is really the person that I want to send this data to. So that was not an option for me. But it made me very nervous how often that was an approach that people would recommend and be like, oh, it's okay, just turn off SSL. You'll be fine. Like, don't worry about it. CHRIS: I feel like this so perfectly fits into the...some of our work is finding the information and connecting the pieces together and making it work. But some of it is that heuristic sense, that voice in the back of your head that is like, wait, I'm sorry, what? You want me to just turn off the security perimeter and hope that the velociraptors won't come in? That doesn't seem like it's going to end well. I get that that's an easy option that we have available to us right now and will solve the immediate problem but then let's play this out. There are four or five Jurassic Park movies now that tell the story of that. So let's be careful. STEPH: It always ends super well, though, right? Like, it's totally fine. [laughs] CHRIS: [laughs] Exclusively. Although it's funny that you mentioned OpenSSL no verify because just this past week, I used that very same configuration. I think it was okay in my case; I'm pretty sure. But it is interesting because when I saw it, I was like, oh no, can't do that. Certainly not that. Don't turn off the security feature. That's the wrong way to deal with the issue. But in the particular case that I'm working with, I'm using Redis, Heroku Redis, in particular, in a Heroku configuration. And the nature of how Heroku configures the Redis instances and the connectivity to our app into our dyno...I forget why. I read an article. They wrote it; Heroku wrote it. I trust them; they're good. I've outsourced my trust to people that I do trust. The trust chain actually maps really well to the certificate trust chain. I trust that Heroku has taken security deeply seriously. And for some reason, their configuration of Redis requires that I turn on OpenSSL no verify mode. So I'm using this now both in Sidekiq, and then we're using our Redis instance for our Rails cache as well. So in both cases, I said, "It's fine. Don't worry about it." I used the Don't worry about it configuration. And I didn't love it but I think it's okay. And partly, I'm trying to say this into the internet radio right now just in case anyone's listening who's like, no, no, no, you can't do that. That's bad. So I'm willing to be deeply wrong on the internet in favor of someone telling me and then I get to get out in front of it. But I think it's fine. Pretty sure it's fine. It should be fine. STEPH: I love love love that you gave a very visual example of velociraptors, and then you're like, oh, but I turned it off. [laughs] So I'm going to start sending you a velociraptor gif each day. CHRIS: I hope you do. I hope the internet holds you accountable to that. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: And I really look forward to [laughs] moving forward because that's a great way to start the day. Well, it doesn't need to start the day, but I look forward to them. STEPH: [laughs] I am really intrigued because I'm with you. Like you said, there are certain entities that are in our trust chain where it's like, hey, you are running this for us, and so I do have faith and trust in you that you wouldn't steer me wrong and provide a bad recommendation. Someone on Stack Overflow telling me to turn off SSL verify uh; that's not my trust chain. Heroku or someone else telling me I'm going to take it a little more seriously. And so I'm also interested in hearing from...what'd you say? You're speaking into the internet phone. [laughs] What'd you say? CHRIS: I think I said internet radio. But yeah, in a way. I mean, we're recording over Skype right now. So in a manner of speaking, we're on the internet phone to make our internet radio show. STEPH: [laughs] Oh goodness, the internet radio. I'm also intrigued to hear if other people are like, oh, no, no, no. Yeah, that sounds like an interesting scenario. Because I would think you'd still want your connection to...you said it's for Redis. So you still want that connection to be verified. But then if Redis itself can't have a specific...yeah, we're testing the boundaries of my SSL knowledge here as to how the heck you would even establish that SSL connection or the verification process. CHRIS: Me too. And it also exists in an interesting space where Heroku is rather clear in their documentation about this. And it was a surprising claim when I saw it. And so, I don't expect them to be flippant about a thing that is important. Like, if they're like, "No, no, no, it is okay. You can turn off the security thing, don't worry." I trust that they're not just like, oh, we didn't think about it too much. But we figured why not? It's not a big deal. I'm sure that they have thought about it deeply because it is an important thing. And so in a weird way, my trust of them and the severity of what this thing represents, I'm like, oh yeah, I super trust that because you're not going to get a major thing wrong. You might get a minor, small, subtle thing wrong. But this is a pretty major configuration change. As I say it, I'm now getting more worried. I'm now like, I feel fine about this. This doesn't seem like a problem at all. But then I keep saying stuff, and I'm like, oh no. That's why I love having a podcast; I find out things about myself as I talk into a microphone to you. STEPH: We come here to share our deep, dark developer secrets. Chris: Spooky developer therapy. STEPH: But just to clarify, even though you've turned off the SSL verify, you're still connecting over SSL. CHRIS: Yes, I believe that's the case. And if I'm remembering, I think the nature of how this works is they're using a self-signed certificate because of shared infrastructure or something, something that made sense when I read it. But it was the idea that they are doing a self-signed certificate. Therefore, to what you were talking about earlier, there isn't the certificate authority in the chain of those because it's self-signed. And so, they are not a trusted certificate authority. Therefore, that certificate that they have generated would not be trusted. But it does still allow for the SSL handshake and then communication to happen over SSL. It's just that fundamental question of trust. I'm saying, in this case, for reasons, it's okay. Trust me that I trust them. We're good. Which, again, I don't feel great about, but I think yes, it is still SSL, but it is a self-signed certificate. So we have to make this configuration change. STEPH: Yeah, all of that makes sense. And it certainly sounds like you have been very thoughtful about that change and put in some investigative work. So on that note, I have a very unrelated bad joke for you. CHRIS: I'm very excited. STEPH: All right, here we go. All right, so what do you call an alligator wearing a vest? CHRIS: I don't know. What do you call an alligator wearing a vest? STEPH: An investigator. [laughter] On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Oh, let's wrap up. We should also include a link in the show notes to the episode where you told the joke about the elephant hiding in the trees because that's one of my favorite jokes. You slayed me with that one. [laughs] But on that note, yes, let us wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes,,as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeeeee!!! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

1 00:00:03.570 --> 00:00:04.259 Paul Casey: Here we go. 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:24.840 Paul Casey: it's a great day to grow forward, and thank you for joining me for today's episode with Chris Porter Chris is partner at Porter Kinney and a fun fact about him is he says he's a little germ of phobic or at least people think he is Chris you gotta go get a color on that one. 3 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:40.440 Chris: Well it's true it's just been a joke a long standing joke going back decades about my German phobia one time for a birthday present somebody gave me some jello with a hand sanitizer inside the jello just to make sure the agenda was clean. 4 00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:45.330 Chris: The whole bottle of hand sanitizer was kind of molded within the jello and that was my. 5 00:00:46.830 --> 00:00:52.530 Paul Casey: love it love it well, we will dive in after checking in with our tri city influencers sponsor. 6 00:00:53.460 --> 00:01:00.810 Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the tri cities well welcome Chris I was privileged to meet you. 7 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:09.480 Paul Casey: Man it feels like eight or 10 years ago now, when I visited a you're being I grew up your business networking international group I was a sub and. 8 00:01:09.990 --> 00:01:26.970 Paul Casey: ended up joining be and I certainly after that I think it was 2015 I joined the and I and it's been a great thing ever since and you were able to speak at one of my edge events when we used to do those when we combine pizza and professional development that was fun. 9 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:28.380 Chris: that's right. 10 00:01:29.100 --> 00:01:43.770 Paul Casey: And you spoke for mid Columbia score I think once on the same topic and I just love, how you want to help other businesses out of wide rookie mistakes as you would call them and really help them thrive, as they as they launch and in those first years of development. 11 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:45.420 Absolutely. 12 00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:57.060 Paul Casey: Well, how far Tracy and implication to know you better tell us about what your organization does what you spend 80% of your day doing. 13 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:08.430 Chris: yeah so porter Kenny we're a CPA firm and accounting firm, so we provide tax preparation services and other accounting services for individuals and businesses. 14 00:02:09.630 --> 00:02:25.170 Chris: So business could come to us for tax advice for the preparation of their annual tax return and then also if they wanted us to run their payroll for them, keep their books up to date, help them make good business decisions, you know we're here to support small businesses in the tri cities. 15 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:32.190 Paul Casey: Great stuff and So what do you end up spending most of your day as a partner, doing same thing or other stuff. 16 00:02:32.970 --> 00:02:38.790 Chris: yeah i'm about split 5050 right now, half the time i'll work on client work, making sure. 17 00:02:39.210 --> 00:02:45.960 Chris: You know i'm filing my clients tax returns on time, helping them make strategic business moves avoid taxes were legally possible. 18 00:02:46.410 --> 00:03:02.520 Chris: And then the other half of my day is spent on management training employees on sales on trying to improve the business, you know, sometimes with leadership we talked about working in the business versus working on the business and i'm about split 5050 between those two right now. 19 00:03:03.210 --> 00:03:11.220 Paul Casey: Nice and, as we were talking before we started recording you're in a major growth spurt in just the last couple of years right. 20 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:18.150 Chris: yeah about two years ago, we have seven full time staff at porter kinney and now we have 24 so. 21 00:03:18.210 --> 00:03:20.430 Chris: Definitely had some growth over the last couple years. 22 00:03:20.610 --> 00:03:22.440 Paul Casey: amazing congratulations. 23 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:23.310 Chris: Thank you. 24 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:25.590 Paul Casey: Why do you love to do what to do. 25 00:03:26.970 --> 00:03:34.350 Chris: You know I just have always enjoyed business It just seems like something that's really fun it's almost like you're playing a strategy game. 26 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:46.320 Chris: And if you make the right moves you're going to win, and if you don't think clearly enough or you make a mistake you're going to lose and it's just kind of this it's kind of a big game big game of chess. 27 00:03:47.190 --> 00:03:53.430 Chris: Ever since I was probably 10 or 11 i've wanted to start a business in fact i'll tell you Paul, the first business I ever started. 28 00:03:54.180 --> 00:04:06.090 Chris: A friend of mine His name was john and my name is Chris so we got together and we said we're going to combine our two names and we're going to start a lawn mowing business, so instead of Chris and john we call it crowd. 29 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.000 Chris: It was cron lawn. 30 00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:10.740 Chris: Which arrives. 31 00:04:14.010 --> 00:04:14.580 Chris: So. 32 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:23.280 Chris: That was me as a 10 or 11 year old try to be entrepreneurial but i've had a million business ideas, since then and thankfully at least one of them has worked. 33 00:04:24.390 --> 00:04:31.350 Paul Casey: How did you land on accounting and tax prep from all those business ideas, how did you sort through land on that one. 34 00:04:32.010 --> 00:04:45.870 Chris: You know it's what I did when I was at byu That was what my degree was in was accounting, so it was kind of the most natural fit, of course, to start an accounting firm when you have a background in accounting when you have work experience and accounting and a degree in accounting. 35 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:51.600 Chris: So that's how I settled on that, but yeah I have debated about doing other businesses but. 36 00:04:52.740 --> 00:05:06.360 Chris: I know a lot of tri cities business owners that have their foot in you know many different businesses, they maybe have a portfolio of five to 10 different businesses that hasn't worked for my own personality, I like to be laser focused on just one one business. 37 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:20.820 Paul Casey: Absolutely so who do you surround yourself with on your team, what makes a great team Member for you to hang around and also who do you who do you tend to associate with in the Community outside of porter kinney. 38 00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:29.940 Chris: Well, within porter Kenny, we have tried to hire the best person for each position and it's interesting as you try to grow a business. 39 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:42.300 Chris: there's the lowest hanging fruit employees and that's going to be, you know your brother or your sister or your friend or your neighbor just kind of the people that are around around you that you know that maybe you're looking for a job. 40 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:53.820 Chris: You could always hire one of them, but but really it is very important if you've read the book good to great you know, Jim Collins really emphasizes putting the right people on the right seat on the bus. 41 00:05:54.450 --> 00:06:06.150 Chris: And spending a lot of time hiring I read a book recently by Dave ramsey who recommends the same thing Dave ramsey says he does like two months of interviews before he hires anyone yeah. 42 00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:18.510 Chris: So we have been very careful in the hiring process to hire the right person for each position, not to hire the easiest person or the lowest hanging fruit or the person that we know or the person we attend, you know church with. 43 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:29.700 Chris: When we hire someone it's it's probably at least 30 hours of my time before we make that higher and so that I think we just have an outstanding team that doesn't need to be micromanaged. 44 00:06:30.270 --> 00:06:37.200 Paul Casey: yeah the measure twice cut once principal at a boss through always said that in hiring you got to do that so way to go. 45 00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:38.760 Chris: Absolutely yeah. 46 00:06:39.690 --> 00:06:43.110 Paul Casey: For outside the organization one who helps you be successful. 47 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:55.320 Chris: yeah so that's a great question outside the organization, you know, there are a few of business leaders in the Community, that I really respect and i've intentionally take them to lunch and pick their brain and. 48 00:06:55.950 --> 00:07:00.060 Chris: You know it's always good to maintain a spirit of humility about what we do. 49 00:07:00.510 --> 00:07:09.090 Chris: I will be the first to admit that there are you know hundreds of business owners in this area that that do a much better job than I do, and I want to learn from them, I want to. 50 00:07:09.510 --> 00:07:21.720 Chris: have them be my mentor and you know they're further ahead than I am in their business they've been doing it longer than I have and it's good for me to sit down with them over lunch ask him questions learn things from them. 51 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:36.870 Paul Casey: yeah in fact that's on my list there's no that the reason for this podcast was I did what you did, which is take a leader to lunch, and then I thought, what if everybody else could listen in on that conversation, which is how we've gotten to the truth of the input their podcasts, though. 52 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:40.770 Paul Casey: yeah i'm taking me to lunch, right now, but maybe i'll have to send you a grub hub or some. 53 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:41.520 instead. 54 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:58.380 Chris: Well i'll tell you Paul and this ties in several years ago, I took a very successful tri cities business owner out to lunch to anthony's and I sat down with them, and he had grown a business from from one person from just him to over 500 employees. 55 00:07:58.890 --> 00:08:00.660 Chris: As well as the 100% owner. 56 00:08:01.200 --> 00:08:07.320 Chris: And then he sold the business for a very large sum which enabled him to you know be financially secure for the rest of his life. 57 00:08:08.010 --> 00:08:19.230 Chris: And I asked him, you know what What was your secret and one of the things that he told me really has stayed with me, and that is, he said, Chris I grew my business one strategic higher at a time. 58 00:08:19.320 --> 00:08:26.040 Chris: um and I thought that was a great focus, because so many of us think about growing our business one customer at a time. 59 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:35.610 Chris: Well that's also true there's kind of two sides of the coin right, we have to add customers, we have to have clients, we have to you know, keep them satisfied and offer a high level of service to them. 60 00:08:36.060 --> 00:08:47.370 Chris: But the other side of the coin is getting the right people in the business like I mentioned earlier, one strategic hire at a time that's how he went from one employee to 600 employees, to a large sale. 61 00:08:47.880 --> 00:09:03.480 Paul Casey: That is so good, I hear also that the only way you're going to really bust out and grow is, you have to hire leaders, not just followers but leaders that's going to help you to multiply hiring followers just as addition so yeah great stuff one strategic fire at a time. 62 00:09:03.780 --> 00:09:18.120 Chris: yeah and Paul you hit the nail on the head, you also do not want to be intimidated it's okay to hire someone who's smarter than you it's okay to hire someone that's more educated than you are you don't have to be intimidated by that get the best people on your team and grow together. 63 00:09:18.870 --> 00:09:30.060 Paul Casey: Great stuff and speaking of growth leaders have growth mindset So how do you keep evolving as a leader what's in your own personal and professional development plan. 64 00:09:31.710 --> 00:09:48.480 Chris: What are the things i've done, I really love listening to books on my phone I use audible and I like to listen to business books yeah, but I have long time for a long time i've had the philosophy that you shouldn't consume information faster than you're able to apply that information. 65 00:09:48.570 --> 00:09:51.510 Paul Casey: or flow good let's say that again say that again. 66 00:09:51.870 --> 00:09:52.170 well. 67 00:09:53.670 --> 00:09:58.290 Chris: You should not consume information faster than you're able to apply that information. 68 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:06.660 Chris: So, in other words, I hear some people that say hey I listened to one book a week on audible and I think well, are you really able to. 69 00:10:07.380 --> 00:10:13.860 Chris: You know, apply those principles that are being taught in that business book that quickly, maybe some people are I certainly am not. 70 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:20.670 Chris: So i'll go through a book on audible very slowly, as I drive maybe one book every three months. 71 00:10:21.450 --> 00:10:30.000 Chris: And when I get to my location i'll pull up my phone and i'll take notes on a Google sheet as to what I learned during that drive from that business book. 72 00:10:30.780 --> 00:10:43.140 Chris: And then, when i'm done i'll kind of go through all my notes on board those things that I thought were most applicable and i'll try to apply them in my business and I try not to move to the second book until i've made some changes, based on that the first book that I read. 73 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:53.310 Paul Casey: that's really going deep on a book I do like that I read about 40 a year and, like you said assimilating that so I I to pull over and. 74 00:10:54.270 --> 00:11:01.320 Paul Casey: Then write down the takeaways from the books as I go and then I file them, maybe i'm not assimilating them complete like you're. 75 00:11:01.590 --> 00:11:11.280 Paul Casey: you're talking about, but I do file them in categories for leadership development so that I can pass them on to clients and in seminars, in the future so totally concur with you there. 76 00:11:11.790 --> 00:11:16.830 Paul Casey: And you know i'm probably going to ask you this, so what are a couple of books that everybody's got to read if they're a. 77 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:26.460 Paul Casey: Business owner or a leader of other people, they want to develop others or develop themselves what are some of those that pop out maybe you've read just the last few years. 78 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:36.420 Chris: yeah i'll recommend three as kind of a must read and and if there's listeners out there that are thinking about starting a business but haven't read these three books read these three books. 79 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:44.280 Chris: Seven habits of highly effective people by Stephen R covey obviously this you know timeless written what 40 years ago and still relevant today. 80 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:50.190 Chris: Second, one would be good to great by Jim Collins like I just mentioned, also timeless. 81 00:11:51.360 --> 00:12:07.830 Chris: Book so vital to read if you're trying to grow your business, as the title implies from good to great and then the third one would be the E myth revisited by Michael gerber which is really kind of the small business Bible, how to grow a business from one person to 10 people to 50 people. 82 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:13.290 Paul Casey: yeah and I think he was the one that coined that in the biz working in the business or on the business right. 83 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:14.700 Chris: that's right yeah. 84 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:31.710 Paul Casey: Great great book recommends thanks Chris for that to avoid burnout and negativity and even in the land of Kobe the last couple years here how have you fed your mental your emotional health and wellness on a regular basis. 85 00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:42.540 Chris: yeah that's a great question you know some business owners talk about you know you got to work 100 hour plus weeks in order to be successful, I do not buy into that philosophy and. 86 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:52.140 Chris: Most of the effective successful people I know don't work 100 plus hours they do work, maybe 50 to 60 hours a week, I mean they're not slackers that's for sure. 87 00:12:52.770 --> 00:13:02.490 Chris: But you definitely want to take some time some personal time completely on your own I like to do some you know i'd call it spiritual time each day kind of Bible study time each day. 88 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:11.250 Chris: That I take on my own I definitely spend time with my wife and kids each day intentionally during certain times of the day, so yeah don't neglect yourself. 89 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:24.420 Paul Casey: yeah self care huge love, I put in, so your spiritual practice there at the beginning of the day, so setting the tone for the day what successful people do in the morning is is huge. 90 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:35.220 Paul Casey: And then also making sure i'm sure core values family is one of your top ones as well, and not leaving them the leftovers, but prioritizing them somewhere in your day love that. 91 00:13:35.580 --> 00:13:43.770 Paul Casey: Absolutely, how do you go about getting things done, I love to know the organizational system of Chris porter, how do you organize yourself. 92 00:13:44.430 --> 00:13:53.490 Chris: Well i'll tell you Paul I went to one of your presentations several years ago, where you said that we should make a to do list for the next day. 93 00:13:53.820 --> 00:14:03.480 Chris: At the end of the day, so at the end of today i'm going to make a to do list for tomorrow, while those priorities are still fresh in your mind that was a very helpful suggestion and i've done that. 94 00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:09.300 Chris: I don't think I do, that every day, I should, but I do, that a lot of days and I appreciate that suggestion. 95 00:14:10.140 --> 00:14:16.380 Chris: So that's one thing i'll throw out the other thing i'll throw it is from Stephen R covey where he talks about that analogy of. 96 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:23.310 Chris: Having a jar and everyone's heard this before you have a jar you want to put big rocks and it's small rocks and sand and water in it. 97 00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:31.980 Chris: The only way, you can do that is put the big rocks in first and then the sand and then the water, so the sand kind of falls around the big rocks and everything fits. 98 00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:47.700 Chris: And he uses that analogy to basically recommend you take your most important biggest priorities during the week and you schedule them into your calendar at the beginning of the week don't let any anything else interrupt those important items that you have. 99 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:53.760 Chris: put those in first add the big rocks your calendar first and then other things fall into place. 100 00:14:54.810 --> 00:15:01.770 Paul Casey: That is so good, I was just telling that illustration, is a timeless illustration of the big rocks I was just teaching that and look at a. 101 00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:09.030 Paul Casey: Digital summit recently, because it is so applicable don't let anything crowd out those three top priorities. 102 00:15:09.390 --> 00:15:21.930 Paul Casey: And I don't know why we do this, Chris we seem to like blow ourselves off and our priorities, we would never do that to someone in a coffee shop or a client appointment right, but we do this for ourselves all the time and then we're like procrastinated yet again. 103 00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:24.630 Chris: Absolutely yeah. 104 00:15:25.380 --> 00:15:26.670 Paul Casey: And I think we would say Paul. 105 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:31.890 Chris: Paul you also taught me didn't don't show I say obey your calendar is the phrase that you use. 106 00:15:33.270 --> 00:15:36.960 Paul Casey: is like obey your thirst have a calendar. 107 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.740 Chris: that's right. 108 00:15:39.150 --> 00:15:47.910 Paul Casey: Well before we head into our next question about how Chris looks at the bigger picture versus being reactive and leadership let's shout out to our sponsor. 109 00:15:50.220 --> 00:16:02.430 Paul Casey: Well, Chris it's easy to get trapped in simply reacting to crises and leadership and putting out fires, how do you specifically step back and take a look at the bigger picture and get ahead of stuff. 110 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.700 Chris: yeah that's a great question. 111 00:16:06.810 --> 00:16:11.040 Chris: I don't know I don't have a perfect answer for that, but i'll tell you one thing i've done is i've turned off. 112 00:16:12.090 --> 00:16:17.610 Chris: That little notification on the computer where every time you get an email this little thing pings up you got an email from this person. 113 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:26.910 Chris: You know I definitely spend times during the day when when that's completely off when I don't hear any beeps for my cell phone and it beeps from my computer and I could just be focused. 114 00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:37.860 Paul Casey: You also take time as a company with your your core team to do some strategic planning for the year ahead or the quarter ahead anything like that. 115 00:16:38.640 --> 00:16:48.120 Chris: Absolutely my business partner and I we meet weekly Mondays at 1pm and we talked about yet planning and how our goals are coming along. 116 00:16:48.780 --> 00:16:55.680 Chris: And then we have a group of directors of the company so there's two owners and then for directors of our different departments. 117 00:16:56.250 --> 00:17:07.020 Chris: And we are all reading good to great even if we've read it before we're all reading good to great and then we're meeting on July 30 for an all day retreat with you know some refreshments and a meal and. 118 00:17:07.590 --> 00:17:12.030 Chris: And some activities and we're going to discuss the principles and good to great and how we can apply them to our business. 119 00:17:12.780 --> 00:17:19.050 Paul Casey: love the book study idea and now ramsey himself his organization, when you get hired there you get a box of books. 120 00:17:19.350 --> 00:17:29.280 Paul Casey: Because he wants everyone to be speaking the same language and so that that's a cool thing you're all going to do together, even if it's a reread for many of you it's a new read for others. 121 00:17:29.610 --> 00:17:35.730 Paul Casey: love the off site retreat to i'll put in a plug there as well, I love doing those leading those with companies because. 122 00:17:36.060 --> 00:17:51.300 Paul Casey: You know it's a chance to relationship build like you said eat some food together break bread and look ahead without without that constant notification barrage or interruptions throughout your day so way to go for getting your team away to think ahead. 123 00:17:52.830 --> 00:18:06.000 Paul Casey: What key moves did you make, for your Organization has this whole coven thing went through in the last couple of years, how are you responsive to that how did you become strategic in an uncertain time. 124 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:17.550 Chris: You know, maybe, instead of answering how I did that you know I serve a lot of clients and maybe I could just anonymously talk about how some of them navigated through it. 125 00:18:17.850 --> 00:18:26.790 Chris: Right, it was very interesting, you know we serve like I said a lot of businesses in the tri cities and restaurants, I thought were very interesting during coven. 126 00:18:27.570 --> 00:18:34.410 Chris: We have a lot of restaurant clients and some of them just almost instantly you know when march hit when April hit. 127 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:48.540 Chris: They quickly got on uber eats and doordash or had their own delivery drivers and just quickly revamped their business model and some of them did very well, some of them were selling more food than before the pandemic. 128 00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:56.130 Chris: Whereas some of them who just kind of dogmatically stuck to the old business model really struggled so. 129 00:18:56.910 --> 00:19:10.350 Chris: Whether it's co founder whether it's another crisis or whether it's just a constantly changing paradigm of technology, we absolutely need to be responsive on our feet, we cannot run our business like we did five years ago, and we cannot be afraid of change. 130 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:17.880 Paul Casey: yeah and you bring up that word change, what do you feel most people don't of course don't like change. 131 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:24.330 Paul Casey: I find leaders are a little bit more comfortable with it because we're the ones, usually driving it you had this huge growth. 132 00:19:24.870 --> 00:19:39.150 Paul Casey: spurt in the last couple of years, so i'm sure with that came some change whether that's procedures, if not just different people, how do you best lead organizational change and how would you recommend other business leaders lead change. 133 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.670 Chris: yeah that's that's a great question there's always resistance to change. 134 00:19:46.230 --> 00:19:50.310 Chris: In fact, well, I probably won't share that story, I was about to share a. 135 00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:53.430 Chris: story, but I don't know if I could do it in a confidential enough medicine. 136 00:19:55.050 --> 00:19:57.600 Chris: But there's always resistance to change but. 137 00:19:58.830 --> 00:20:05.820 Chris: yeah I think you just have to talk about how you know the very obvious truth that if we don't change we stay the same. 138 00:20:06.120 --> 00:20:11.940 Chris: Now that just sounds so stupid, but it's true if we don't change we don't grow if we don't change we don't progress. 139 00:20:12.510 --> 00:20:22.950 Chris: And I think people just need to realize, you know, like my friend my mentor that I talked about earlier that I met at anthony's going from a one person company to a 600 person company. 140 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:28.530 Chris: Their organizational chart must have changed, you know 27 different times, or more. 141 00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:36.630 Chris: And even in Puerto kitty, you know as we went from when, as a seven person company, you know our organizational chart was basically here's the two owners of the top. 142 00:20:37.080 --> 00:20:45.150 Chris: And here's the five people that report to us it was just very basic we had an organizational chart but it's like okay we're in charge and we're the supervisors that's all it is. 143 00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:53.550 Chris: But now as a 24 person company, the two owners don't necessarily want to be in charge of all 24 so we revamped our organizational chart. 144 00:20:54.150 --> 00:21:02.550 Chris: And that is something that i'd recommend that's something that Michael gerber recommends and the E myth, no matter how small your company is make an organizational chart. 145 00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:13.800 Chris: give each person, a job title give each person, a list of their duties that they need to fulfill and, as you grow annually, you should be updating that organization chart. 146 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:29.010 Paul Casey: What do you do what became a something you delegated to that next level I think you're calling the directors right, the Director level that you did before, but with growth and you know delegated for someone else to supervise. 147 00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:46.230 Chris: Well, one example would be semi annual performance reviews, yes, so I used to do all of them myself and now i'll do the four directors, will do a semi annual review with me and then each of them will do four or five with the people in their department. 148 00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:59.280 Paul Casey: What do you use for performance reviews what system, do you do some self evaluation is it a is it a rating scale is it more narrative what have you sort of landed on lately I know it's probably always in flux, but. 149 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:12.180 Chris: yeah one thing I mean there's a lot we could talk about there, but one thing I think that we've changed recently that's been very effective is give the staff member of the team Member the feedback before the performance review. 150 00:22:13.050 --> 00:22:22.110 Chris: You don't want to be sitting face to face with somebody and all of a sudden just surprise them with some negative feedback or constructive criticism, as we call it in a more politically correct. 151 00:22:22.110 --> 00:22:22.470 Chris: way. 152 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:27.930 Chris: You don't just want to surprise somebody in a face to face setting because naturally they'll become defensive. 153 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:33.840 Chris: So if you send them an email beforehand and say hey thanks so much for meeting with me tomorrow at two. 154 00:22:34.470 --> 00:22:44.880 Chris: Here are some things that I think have been going really well give them six or seven here's two things that I think we can improve on and set some goals on, then they go into the meeting, knowing what's going to be discussed and there'll be less defensive. 155 00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:56.400 Paul Casey: I found that i've got three other clients that also do that same thing they send their performance review a day in advance it's for the people who like to Milan things you know and it probably. 156 00:22:56.820 --> 00:23:08.850 Paul Casey: Well, for mostly it settles them down because they get freaked out on the day of their performance review, but yeah it's sort of like brings it in and more of a conversation the next day, instead of the surprise or. 157 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:13.800 Paul Casey: This is, you know this is going to be this very tense conversation I think it's a great move. 158 00:23:15.360 --> 00:23:17.280 Paul Casey: Speaking of difficult conversations. 159 00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:36.180 Paul Casey: Conflict very difficult among teams and when you're a supervisor and you have to confront a direct reports someone on your team it's it's usually not a whoo you know kind of day, how do you first of all bolster the courage to have that conversation, and not just let it keep on going. 160 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:47.220 Chris: yeah I think you bolster the courage by reminding yourself that that conversation is not only good for you, but it's good for that particular team Member to hear. 161 00:23:48.870 --> 00:23:54.990 Chris: You know and Jim Collins again back to good degrade he talks about that a lot he talks about, for example, the ultimate. 162 00:23:55.770 --> 00:24:06.540 Chris: Tough conversation is the conversation where you have to let somebody go and he talks about in his book if there's somebody who is not a good fit for your organization not only. 163 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:13.920 Chris: Are you doing yourself a disservice by keeping them on you're doing them a disservice by keeping them on the team because. 164 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:18.930 Chris: They might be a much better fit for another organization with a different culture with different goals. 165 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:31.830 Chris: And by continuing to keep them on your bus, even though they're in the wrong seat and on the wrong bus you're basically wasting years of their life so do yourself a favor do them a favor by having that tough conversation. 166 00:24:32.190 --> 00:24:50.550 Paul Casey: No, that is so good, because you really want to have the conversation in service of them, and your organization so you're serving two purposes and when people just don't want to have that conversation so you've had to let people go, probably in the course of your leadership over the years. 167 00:24:51.900 --> 00:25:05.940 Paul Casey: Take us there for a moment what have you learned about the the conversation where it's like we're not a match, how does How does that go, but what recommendations would you have to business owners and other leaders who have to have that conversation. 168 00:25:06.930 --> 00:25:10.020 Chris: yeah well there's certainly no easy way to have that conversation. 169 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:16.770 Chris: But you really just want to treat people very well on their way out. 170 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:25.560 Chris: Whether that be giving them a generous severance payment on their way out or allowing them to stay on the health insurance for a couple months. 171 00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:40.860 Chris: Just whatever you can do to really kind of make the transition easier from your place to someone else's and if it wasn't really you know, a specific problem with their job performance, it was just in general they didn't fit the culture. 172 00:25:42.090 --> 00:25:52.440 Chris: That you were trying to promote maybe they would be a great fit at another company and you could even help them try to find that next company try to find that next job where they would be a good fit. 173 00:25:53.610 --> 00:26:02.070 Chris: So I think more than just choosing the right words during the conversation I think you have to look at the whole experience as treating that employee with dignity on their way out. 174 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:15.660 Paul Casey: Oh, so good that we're dignity yeah always helping them save face I had one boss that told me, you know someday I might be working for you, Paul and and as a custodian so I want to make sure we leave on good terms. 175 00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:26.340 Paul Casey: That was good you've never done it in a Community like the tri cities to you're going to run into these folks probably that it's important for us to do it well, always with dignity. 176 00:26:26.790 --> 00:26:31.560 Chris: yeah and Paul that's a key point where we are in a small town, this is not Chicago, this is not New York. 177 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:41.190 Chris: And with customers and staff members even former staff members yeah you're going to run into them at the grocery store, you know, two weeks from now so just treat everybody kindly and with dignity. 178 00:26:42.210 --> 00:26:53.010 Paul Casey: You mentioned the word culture, when you said you know they may not be a fit for the culture, what kind of culture is porter Kenny trying to develop among the staff so that. 179 00:26:53.460 --> 00:27:04.650 Paul Casey: You know if I were to walk in your business, this would be like the feel that I would get you know, in the air, what do you try to promote there and what are you banging the drum on always with your team. 180 00:27:05.850 --> 00:27:15.300 Chris: yeah that is a fantastic question so we definitely have a culture of continuous improvement and with continuous improvement comes change like you mentioned. 181 00:27:15.990 --> 00:27:23.790 Chris: we're a different company, they will were just two years ago, so people that are resistant to change and don't like. 182 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:38.250 Chris: Learning a new software program or you know learning a new process or having a new organizational chart they would have a tougher time staying with quarter Kenny, because we have this constant pursuit of excellence and improvement in our organization. 183 00:27:39.510 --> 00:27:47.430 Chris: And then on the flip side of that we also like to have fun and we like to you know, have a good rapport with everyone on the team. 184 00:27:48.900 --> 00:28:02.580 Chris: We like to have a fun culture and we'd like to not take ourselves too seriously and those two aspects of our culture, they might seem like you know, oil and water trying to mix, but I think you could have both. 185 00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:07.920 Paul Casey: So i'm not gonna i'm not gonna see some nerf gun wars in the accountants office is that what i'm saying. 186 00:28:09.570 --> 00:28:16.950 Chris: yeah you might just see somebody converting a desk to a ping pong table in the other room a couple days ago. 187 00:28:17.790 --> 00:28:18.090 Paul Casey: Good. 188 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:18.870 Paul Casey: I like it. 189 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:24.150 Chris: I didn't know they solve these little small ping pong nets that you can put on top of a desk and you know, have a couple of games. 190 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:24.510 that's. 191 00:28:25.830 --> 00:28:34.290 Paul Casey: awesome well Chris Finally, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence. 192 00:28:35.790 --> 00:28:38.370 Chris: Well, I think i've already given it but. 193 00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:52.170 Chris: I was recently talking to a very new business owner probably had two employees and I could tell during that meeting, you know, he did 95% of talking he didn't ask for any advice. 194 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:55.980 Chris: The impression I got was that he already knew everything. 195 00:28:57.750 --> 00:29:05.940 Chris: Even though I could tell that certainly there were things that he could do better with his business so just having a little bit of humility and just recognizing. 196 00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:13.680 Chris: Wherever you are in your leadership, development or in the business growth, there are people ahead of you that you can learn things from. 197 00:29:14.610 --> 00:29:23.580 Chris: Some of those people are right here in the tri cities, and you know sit down with them ask them questions and some of those people are national experts who have written books read those books. 198 00:29:24.450 --> 00:29:32.190 Chris: don't ever get to the point where you think you just have all the answers, and you know everything because that's the point in which your professional development is going to go downhill. 199 00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:41.850 Paul Casey: Absolutely stay teachable stay coachable tries to the influencers Chris How can our listeners connect with you and your business. 200 00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:48.480 Chris: Well, I can feel free to shoot me shoot me a question at Chris at quarter can u.com that's my email. 201 00:29:50.010 --> 00:29:59.850 Chris: yeah and you know our business information is pretty easy to find our website is porter can you calm, but yeah one of your listeners can can feel free to reach out to me if they wanted to connect. 202 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:05.940 Paul Casey: Well, thanks again for all you do to make the tri cities, a great place and keep leading well. 203 00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:07.320 Chris: Thank you, Paul. 204 00:30:08.070 --> 00:30:11.820 Paul Casey: We wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. 205 00:30:12.090 --> 00:30:21.390 Paul Casey: i'm starting a membership Community i'm calling it bullseye bullseye is going to be for team leaders, if you supervise other people bulls is for you. 206 00:30:21.600 --> 00:30:28.890 Paul Casey: for less than like 75 cents a day you're going to get some plug and play resources every week in your email box. 207 00:30:29.130 --> 00:30:35.070 Paul Casey: Things videos you can play for your team meeting icebreakers that you can give in your one to ones. 208 00:30:35.340 --> 00:30:41.850 Paul Casey: They all have performance evaluation forms and one to one flow is there's going to be all sorts of great stuff. 209 00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:50.610 Paul Casey: If you're a team leader, so that you'll actually look forward to opening an email from growing forward services, so you can come to my website at Paul casey.org. 210 00:30:50.790 --> 00:31:00.660 Paul Casey: As that begins to launch and get in on the ground floor of this, because then you'll be part of the discussion as we help each other grow in our businesses and leadership development. 211 00:31:02.910 --> 00:31:10.620 Paul Casey: Again this is Paul Casey want to thank my guest Chris porter from porter Kenny, for being here today on the tri cities influencer podcast we also want to thank our. 212 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:19.740 Paul Casey: sponsor and invite you to support them, we appreciate you making this possible, so that we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our Community. 213 00:31:20.130 --> 00:31:34.530 Paul Casey: Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence when you lose your focus, you lose your momentum until next time KGF keep growing forward.

The presenter is James Thurston, G3ict, who is joined by Chris Misra, University of Massachusetts, Amherts.  SPEAKER: Please welcome James Thurston and Chris Misra.  James is the Vice President for G3ict, where he leads the design and implementation of new worldwide advocacy strategies and programs to scale up G3ict's global impact. G3ict is the global Initiative for Inclusive Information and Communication Technologies promoting the rights of Persons with Disabilities in the Digital Age.   Chris is the Vice Chancellor and CIO at the University of Massachusetts – Amherst.  At the University of Massachusetts Amherst, information technology plays a crucial role in many key areas, including but not limited to student success and engagement, research competitiveness, and multi-modal education.   Today they will be looking at how leveraging accessibility and inclusion can provide an adaptive and accessible multi-modal IT ecosystem to support campuses. Chris will review findings, digital inclusion gaps, next steps for improvements at the University of Massachusetts – Amherst and more!   JAMES: Our goal with this session is to share with all of you some detail about how the U Mass approach to being more accessible, more inclusive through technology. Through its technology assets and deployments and Chris and I over the next hour want to surface and share with you, I think, what are some valuable and actionable experiences from U-mass, that will hopefully apply to your own accessibility journey in your higher education institution. This particular session is the third in the IAAP higher ed series. It's also the first of the next three sessions, which relate to, and are sort of sourced from, G3ict's work with universities and higher education institutions, using our smart university digital inclusion maturity model tool. And I'm just going to briefly give you a little bit of information on that, just so it will make a little bit more sense as Chris and I start to have a conversation about our work with Chris and what Chris has been leading and driving there at the University of Massachusetts model. The smart university digital inclusion maturity model tool, it's an assessment tool and a benchmarking tool. And it's really to help universities better understand how their digital transformation, how they're using technology, how their use of data is either supporting accessibility inclusion of people with disabilities or potentially presenting barriers to the inclusion of people with disabilities, including faculty, staff and students. And even, really, the broader community where the university might sit. So, the tool itself, the assessment tool, it's made up of 28 variables, we call them enablers, and they define what it really means to be an inclusive smart university. They enable accessibility and enable inclusion. These variables, or enablers, contribute to the university's building up the capabilities that we know support greater inclusion in accessibility at a university. And these capabilities, and with the tool we're able to look at the role of things like leadership, the existence of a digital inclusion strategy or not, we look at the accessibility of the university's engagement channels, how it's pushing information out, getting information back, are those accessible, we look at things like the culture of diversity, is the university employing people with disabilities, is it training on disability and accessibility. We look at things like procurement, what systems does the university have in place to make sure that its investments in technology and its deployments of technology are accessible. So, a whole range of issues that we know are pretty critical to a university becoming increasingly accessible, increasingly inclusive. And, of course, we do dig into technology and data, which are the backbone and the life blood of a smart university. And the way that we use these variables, these 28 enablers, these 18 capabilities, is in a three-step process. That is pretty straightforward. We do some analysis of documents, I.T. strategies, digital inclusion strategies, budgets, accessibility statements. We do some analysis of those. We make available to the university an online self-assessment where they sort of write themselves across these variables. And then we actually do an expert site visit where we curate a team of global experts on inclusion and accessibility and bring them in to engage with the university, dig into some of these variables, and hopefully, at the same time, provide some help and assistance on pain points, issues that the university might be experiencing. And then the final step is we deliver a road map, which includes a set of scores for each of these variables and a set of priorities and recommendations for moving forward. So, if you're at a level 2 on a scale of 1 to 5 for procurement, these are the kinds of things you might think about doing to get to levels 3, 4 and 5. So pretty straightforward. The process with U Mass, we'll be talking -- jumping in with Chris in just a minute. We, I think, started that process last spring and sort of did the site visit, I think, in early summer this past year. And in that process, we reviewed probably more than 20 documents, these budgets, these strategies, these org charts, policy statements. We talked with more than 40 U Mass faculty and staff over ten different listening sessions. And then we delivered the road map. And in the road map, U Mass, I think, had real relative strengths in the area of leadership and other areas identified where there's an opportunity to really make some steps to have some improvements in the capabilities and ultimately in the accessibility and inclusion there. So that's a little bit of a background on how G3ict came to be working with U Mass. I thought it might be useful to sort of frame our conversation. And with that, I'm really excited now, and I've been I've been looking forward to this discussion, Chris, for quiet a while, of jumping in with you and hearing a little bit about the U Mass Amherst journey, where you are, where you're headed but maybe we can start, if you can tell us a little bit about the University of Massachusetts Amherst, give us a general sense of the university and how you're deploying technology there. CHRIS: Sure, thanks, James. So, U-Mass Amherst, for those of you who aren't familiar with Massachusetts geography, I grew up in Massachusetts, so I know, we're about 90 minutes west of Boston, 175 miles north northeast of New York City. It's a relatively rural area, but it's a significant institution. We have about 24,000 undergraduate students, about 7,500 graduate students. About 1,500, instructional faculty. Largest state institution in New England, research one, $233 million, $1.3 billion budget, big. 1500-acre campus, which is the biggest thing is trying to find your way around the campus. Our journey of accessibility came about really through just conversations and advocacy within the campus in terms of this has to be a key responsibility for us. Our technology platform is really very traditional, higher education. We migrated many of our services to the Cloud, excessive use of Zoom recently, Google, exchanging out platforms, and the challenge with the campus of this size is really just managing the breadth and depth of both a campus and a highly decentralized institution. JAMES: Great, thanks, Chris. We probably started having conversations about a year ago, actually, just as we were coming into the pandemic and universities, in particular, I think, we're scrambling to try to figure out, okay, how do we fulfill our mission in this environment. Can you talk a little bit about sort of what that looked like as we were coming into the pandemic from a CIO perspective, the kinds of things that you were thinking about and needing to take steps on? CHRIS: Sure. There were sort of two interesting aspects. I mean, aside from it's amongst the longest days of my career in the past and probably ever going forward just in terms of how do you migrate an institution that size to an online education. We made a very early determines, we were one of the early schools who decided to go remote, we thought it would be two weeks, we took a double spring break. We quickly ramped up the technology portfolio. We were fortunate that we already had tools like Zoom, we had pretty good practice of online education, fairly robust online education school, but not a lot of digitally native capacity to teach instructionally remote. So, there's really two principal areas of impact. There's a principal area of impact in academics, and the impact in administration. Since we extended out the spring break for an extra week, we actually had two weeks to figure out how we were going to do these academics. But that meant we had to move the administration into an online world in a very short order of time. From the basic things, how are we going to pick up the mail to how are we going to communicate, how do staff meetings work, and recognizing that institutionally we were a face-to-face campus, our staff meetings were face to face, our one-on-one meetings were face to face and we had to comport all of that. So, the social change was actually significant, and that led quickly to substantial change in the academic side as well. We saw increases of -- astounding increases in Zoom utilization. One of my favorite statistics on Zoom utilization is in the first week of -- I'm sorry -- in the first day of the first week when we brought our academics online, we used more Zoom time the entire month previously. So, each day in April, we used the same number of Zoom hours in the entire month of February. And that pace continued through the balance of the spring semester. JAMES: Chris, I remember that data point as well. And I often use it myself because I think it is a really easy, compelling example of this accelerated digital transformation. Can you talk a little bit about where -- how accessibility fits into I.T. and into the university in general? I know, you've got a really great I.T. strategy, accessibility is embedded in there. I don't think that there's a specific digital inclusion or necessarily accessibility strategy, but maybe a little bit about strategy and organizational structure, just so we understand how accessibility fits in. CHRIS: Absolutely. So, we've actually been fortunate from an I.T. perspective, we've had staff supporting accessibility but a very modest staff. I think when James did the assessment, we had a single staff member, at a high point we had two staff, and we're in the process of transitioning that as well. So, our overall accessibility strategy comes multi fold. My team is responsible for the information technology, and that's across the board. That means we support students' technology use in the classroom, we support faculty's technology use, we provide general technology use for administration. We do not have responsibility for accessibility accommodations per se, we have a disability services team on campus, it's organized in our student affairs area. So, really, it's a key partnership working between student affairs, working with my central I.T. organization. I will say from a maturity perspective, though, we had staff, it was very much more about boutique service, solving discrete individual accommodations, and it hadn't crossed the line of being generalizable to most of our day-to-day normal use of population technology. It was very much targeted at a subset population that had self-disclosed a need for an accommodation. JAMES: And I know as part of this conversation, we'll get into a bit later, a discussion of these issues of silos and coordination and collaboration, which we had a lot of conversation about when we were working with you. So, maybe we can jump in now a little bit into this sort of notion of accelerated accessibility that happened for U Mass for sure but probably for most universities around the world because of the pandemic and what that looks like. And how -- maybe start with a little bit about how does the university deploy technology assets that are accessible and really are working for everyone, and what did it look like to have this sort of intensified effort to include a focus on accessibility as you were becoming more and more -- using technology more and more to do all of your services, both administrative and academic and teaching? CHRIS: Sure. So I'll say the structural change that really occurred was, I think, originally we treated accessibility as meeting the needs of identified individuals who had to have accommodations and making sure our web content was accessible, doing basic accessibility reviews, it was basic, W3CG, not a lot of detailed work and it was not invested across the board in terms of we had a lot of natively accessible tool set but it was really natively delivered accessible tool set, there wasn't a lot of work and push for us to drive an institutional priority around making sure our content was natively accessible, except where there was either liability or like I say, a dedicated accommodation. As we went into the pandemic, that really had to pivot because we realized, we no longer had the mechanism, we couldn't deploy a notetaker for a student in a classroom because there wasn't a classroom. We couldn't make point by point accommodations on either technology or use case basis. So, we had to start generalizing. We were fortunate that we were in the midst of a transition of our strategic plan, so we were actually at a point of making that type of pivoting. Of identify digital inclusion as a core property going forward. And, so, we had a lot of the substrate work, but I'd say the pandemic really drove us to recognize it wasn't solely about a compliance obligation but much more about reaching our community where they're at. JAMES And as you were making that shift, were you -- some of what we had talked about in the past, when you were in the middle of all this, is there some -- much like what you would probably do on the security side of your work, any sort of risk rating system, and trying to make these decisions about where are we going to prioritize and focus first and those types of decisions when it comes to accessibility? CHRIS: Absolutely, yeah. So, one of the things, for me, I consider fortunate is prior to my role as a CIO I've been in a number of roles at U Mass. I came from a very technical background. But I spent many years in a security role. So, I was responsible for information security at the organization. Within the information security field, it's very much a derivative of risk management field that works very heavily on risk and concepts like maturity models play very heavily there. So, when you're assessing implementation of controls to mediate security risk, you have to assess what is the cost of control, what is the value, what is the return. The easiest way to assess that is against a maturity model so I had a lot of familiarity with the concept of maturity models. One of the things that made me very excited about the engagement of G3ict was the application of this discipline-type technology of applying a maturity model to a domain like accessibility because I had not seen that done before, but I had a lot of experience.   What's nice about that, it gives you an abstract way of measuring your progress, although there can be a metric and a rating, it also talks about where you are legitimately relative to your peers but what steps you can take, and gives you a better mechanism to start prioritizing resource allocations. So, as I moved out of information security, into a CIO role, I changed from being responsible for compliance to be responsible for budget, priority and allocation. So being able to have a document like a maturity model that can help guide investment and show return relative to cost was a better framework for us to make ongoing decision making and I felt more at home in that security field, like oh, we know this is a high risk, let's apply a resource here, even if the resource is fairly modest, it's going to get us significant return against that issue. JAMES: Can you -- if you're able, can you talk a little bit about some of those areas where you were making decisions at the time in this accelerated period of focus on accessibility in addition to a lot of other things? Where you are identifying risk and taking some steps specifically around improving the accessibility of your technology assets? CHRIS: Sure. And in some cases, what's interesting with the technology assets is our first task, because we are technologists, is let's just fix the technology.  What it really came down to in many cases it's about the business process as well. So, when we started going through the assessment process, we realized the first and foremost, we have a 24,000 student population moving remote. We had to get in front of the faculty and instructors to explain why this was relevant. So, it wasn't so much about, hey, don't put a poorly scanned PDF up on your website, we'd already been providing those types of instructions, but it really had to pivot to, is your course content accessible natively. And in that case, it is still digital accessibility, but it may be, have you applied alt tags to your PowerPoints, have you made sure you're not doing poorly rendered PDFs, is your content screen reader able. It was these sorts of things that are actually technology related but it was about the business process behind it. What we did, we formed a working group between my team, our university library, our center for teaching and learning, and our instructional designers, we call our ideas group, it's a big long acronym I can never remember, but we put those together as ideas is the support resource, faculty primary interact with. Library is a resource that provides a lot of the supplementary external materials, I.T. is a lot of times the bridging infrastructure. So, it was really about forming a coalition within campus, identifying priorities, it was helped inform by the maturity model where those risk areas are, and providing guidance, which wasn't just apply technology, but help individuals creating content to make the content accessible natively, because the incremental cost to them was much smaller than us throwing lots of money at making the technology do it for them. JAMES: You touched on a really important point that I think would resonate with any university around the world, which is the sort of decentralized structure of universities, we'll dig into that more deeply in a minute. But I'm just wondering, as you were partnering, and leading this accelerated digital transformation during the pandemic and focus on accessibility as part of that, how was that received? I recall in part of our conversations, for example, there was, with the faculty, there may have been some incentives around going digital, maybe even going digital and accessible at the same time. But, in general, how would you say this accelerated accessibility was received? CHRIS: So I would say it was received well. I was actually somewhat surprised at how well it was received. Those of you who have been at universities, especially in large universities, they're very decentralized power structures, recognize that change comes slowly. The ship turns slowly, as we like to say, right? It will get there eventually but it turns slowly. I was tremendously impressed with the empathy and the caring shown by the faculty and the instructors involved in supporting students at a distance, but they recognized an individual obligation. And, really, our role as technologists was to reduce that barrier to them to make their content accessible. So, there was some financial structure incentives, as we went into our subsequent semester that helped faculty teaching online to build hybrid instruction. What we did, we developed a series of standards to make sure as our content went out, it met these standards, that was sort of the condition of the incentivising. So rather than make it a big deal, like hey, you all have to do accessibly, it was really embedded into an existing incentivization structure, but we added the accessibility obligations as additional compliance checks to go to an accessible by default role. I was concerned about the uptake we'd see from faculty, you but I was very surprised. The other thing with decentralized higher education, as much as the ship turns slowly, once everybody gets where you're going, they generally get on board. So, we took this more adapt to the culture of the campus, adapt to the change culture of the campus, and tie into those change mechanisms that are effective, that's what really helped us be more successful, I believe, that and the empathy of the faculty and the instructors. SPEAKER: The International Association of Accessibility Professionals membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries including the private sector, government, non-profits, and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around digital and the built environment. United in Accessibility, join I.A.A.P. and become a part of the global accessibility movement. JAMES: So, maybe take a little bit of a step back, but still thinking about the deployment of accessible, inclusive technology assets. Can you talk a little bit about your thinking, U-Mass' thinking and approach to incident management? How do you remediate issues, how does that happen? And then the other piece that I'd love to hear a little bit more is about testing, when it comes to accessibility, automated user testing? CHRIS: Sure.  So, two-fold. On the testing piece, we've employed students both in our help desk and our accessibility office to do some of the testing. We actually are just launching another program to do more broad usability testing, which includes accessibility testing, working in concert with some faculty in our writing program. They tend to have a good degree of expertise in there. So, the other advantage of a higher education institution is students are fresh, motivated, focused and quite inexpensive labor and they like the work. It's great experience, it's great value to them, it's great value to us institutionally. So, we've really tied into that, this is something we've done for many, many years, tie into a workforce that's motivated, it's interesting. We've definitely seen the awareness of our student body around accessibility issues is much greater in the last five and ten years than it has been previously. I've been asked about making sure content is accessible from a course perspective, I've been -- there's been a shift and the challenge is, that shift isn't necessarily as strongly perceived at the faculty that are instructing them because they tend to be a little bit older. So, using the students to help motivate that work has really helped improve the accessibility piece of it because we've embedded the testing more into the core processes when we role out new applications, whether it's a PeopleSoft application or a new web application, we're commissioning that testing as part of launches of applications, as well as new web properties. JAMES: Chris, Mark Nichols is asking a question. If the standards that you're talking about, before content goes out, or even other standards that you're looking at and testing on really to -- related to accessibility, are they in-house standards or are you using global standards like WCAG? CHRIS: They are in-house standards developed off WCAG. But I will get James and Yulia a link afterwards. We posted up our academic standards and it referred to those suggestions, it was built off of WCAG. One thing, just amongst everybody here, accessibility is not my first language. I'm an info set guy, I was a technologist, I was a Linux assist Admin. I know the acronyms, I know the space, but it's not quite my domain of expertise, I'm fortunate to have well-trained staff who understand this both on my team and the disability services team so we can absolutely share those standards. They're academic standards we posted for the fall semester for 2020. JAMES: So, Chris, I know, as I recall from our previous conversations and work, there were sort of nine legacy platforms that you guys had deployed. And I'm wondering if over the course of the many months since we've worked together, how you're thinking about incident management has changed or evolved or how you're approaching that and dealing with that, how much of an issue -- accessibility issues have become in this accelerated period? CHRIS: I mean, the challenge has been, before -- I believe we started talking about the accessibility review before the pandemic. I had high hopes that we would be able to make significant progress in some of our core administrative systems in the shorter term. And then the pandemic hit and next thing I knew, we were running COVID testing sites for the western part of the state. We were running vaccination programs. We were one of the earliest vaccination programs for first responders. So, unfortunately, a lot of the resources I'd have to help make accessibility improvements to our core applications really got put aside for new application deployment. What I will say, we've been strong about implementing accessibility standards for the new applications as we roll them out. So, at this point my hope is to get us back, likely as we refactor some of our applications to do a more detailed review. It's definitely a goal, it's an asserted goal, it's part of the road map and strategy going forward. It's just with the pandemic, the resource allocation tipped everything so sideways. I'm a little further behind than I hoped to be there. Legacy platforms, we haven't made as much progress as I was hoping to. We've certainly made progress. What we've made significant progress in is in the awareness and the accountability that accessibility is an issue that has to be accommodated at deployment or at refresh for an application. That was a huge improvement that we hadn't been able to make as successfully in the past. JAMES: You've shared, at least with me, what I think are some really interesting facts about how you as a CIO had to evolve into using technology to support a dramatically increased public health role of the university for the state during the pandemic, which is pretty amazing. There's another question from Peter, who decides the threshold for compliance? It's never 100%. CHRIS: And, so, again, this is where I'm going to go a little bit on my information security soap box, right? The definition of compliance is just bending the wheel to another. So, yeah, it's never 100%. It's not going to be 100%. Really what we do is use a risk-based model, understanding where the risk is. Usually that started historically, with either liability of the institution or legal accommodation requirements. That's a barrier to cross, that's a legal obligation to cross, but it's really not meeting this notion of digital inclusion as a core value of the campus. So, the threshold is really handled generally on a case-by-case basis. There isn't an arbitrary threshold. What we focus on, these are the recommendations to make your course content accessible, to make your web property accessible. These are the standards. From a web property perspective, we do actually have a compliance check less, we actually have a team inside our university relations group that will run through both automated testing and some hand-based testing to look at, does the content render in a screen reader, does it provide appropriate alt image tags and things like that. My goal with compliance is always making sure that we're investing the right amount of resource to ensure that we meet the largest degree of population as effectively as we can. Information security is a risk management game. Accessibility and compliance become a risk management game. And it's hard sometimes to think of it in those terms, but one of the challenges, I think, that I've seen working with some of my staff is, staff come with a tremendous degree of accessibility concern are passionate, profound and focused. The challenge is also balancing those resources against the other resource needs of campus, right? How much time can I spend on ensuring my web properties are accessible if, at the same time, I have to take those same resources to allocate them to make sure we're setting up a COVID vaccination clinic. It's really a continuum of resource allocations. For me, thinking about how can I make sure there's always a guarantee of resource allocation towards accessibility, recognizing that that might not be core to our mission. What can be core to our mission is deploying accessible applications on an going forward basis. But our core mission is instructing students, performing research, being a land grant institution. We always have to balance that resource allocation to make sure we're moving the ball forward in these different fronts, but serving, first and foremost, what is it we're core here to do, instruct students. Accessibility is a component of that, but it can't be the dominating component. It has to be an absolutely key component, but the dominating is us delivering students with a path to their future. JAMES: Thanks, Chris. Before we go on to the next topic, briefly, if you can talk about thinking about your staff, the technology staff at the university even more broadly, perhaps, the skill and training on accessibility and how you think about that and approach that. CHRIS: Yeah, I think there's three aspects of that. So, the first aspect was, we've had some staff transition, in our accessibility staff. Making sure we have the appropriate professional training for folks who are doing the accommodation work or engagement and consultation work. That's always been a fairly straightforward, that's an institutional investment. That makes good sense. Where the real value we've seen, both from a leadership perspective, raising accessibility as a topic of concern at senior levels at the institution. So, raising this concept, our provost is fluid with the concept of accessibility, right? He's not going to go out and do a WCAG review, but he gets the concept that he can instruct his Deans that this is going to have to be a key component of the content their faculty deliver on a go forward basis. From a training perspective, there's a lot of low-cost effort that we can put in place to raise accessibility on the radar from a leadership perspective, discuss it with a broad team of not just executive but operational, manager and cross-functional teams, we've also been very successful in engaging our students about accessibility conversations, what does that mean to you. Because my concept of accessibility is how big is the font is, a student's concept of accessibility may be how does it render on a cell phone. That's a very different problem set, depending on what technology you apply to that. It doesn't have to be, but we need to collect those voices in terms of understanding what that means and a lot of that does not involve a lot of out-of-pocket cost. JAMES: And just one more question, then we'll move on to one of my favorite topics, which is sort of collaboration across departments. From Kathy, how do you decide what to test? Do you do spot checks of certain course websites and more checking of applications used by larger populations? CHRIS: Sure. So let me break up the administrative from the academic side of things. So, from the administrative side of things, we actually have a review process for our web properties in conjunction between our I.T. team and our university relations team that's responsible for our web properties. So, there's actually a checkoff evaluative process for our core web properties. I'm fully confident there's probably some research lab websites or some individual P.I. websites that were created by word press that probably don't meet the testing. We focus on the high-visibility targets to make sure the information that's most relevant to a large population gets out there. From a course perspective, we do have a couple of very large enrollment courses. We tend to focus most of our resources on ensuring the platform is accessible natively. There is always compliance issues, right? There's always some faculty member that wants to take their PDF from 1982, turned it 10 degrees and scan it and hope it will work. We do spot checks, especially on the large enrollment course, but generally we focus on ensuring the platforms are natively compliant, and then providing strong guidance to the faculty to ensure they have the guidance and parameters of what are those steps that they can take that's relatively die minimums, relatively incremental burden for them but provides a more inclusive experience natively. JAMES: Thanks so much. Now let's shift gears a little bit, Chris, and get into the issues of collaboration, coordination, working across departments at a big university on a big campus. One of the things -- one of the other things that stuck in my mind that you said early on when we started working together was how at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, there are some really amazing, I give you full credit for this term, these pockets of heroic effort. Which I think will resonate with anyone who's doing work in the accessibility field, any kind of organization, that there are really good practices happening in parts of the university. And I think some of the ones that had come up, U Mass were around UDL, instructional design, and some other areas that the Assistive Technology Center, some really good resources and practices. But siloed and not scaled because they are siloed in departments. And even some departments, I think, that may have been a little ahead of others in terms of academic departments in terms of their approach to inclusion and accessibility. I know that since we last worked together, and during this -- these last several months, the accelerated accessibility period, that you've done some work on greater collaboration and coordination. Can you talk a little bit about that, including maybe some description of what it felt like before taking some improving steps? CHRIS: Sure. I mean, for those of you who have spent time, and this is true of both large and small higher education, but higher education tends to be a very siloing structure, at least in my experience. There's a couple of exceptions but there tends to be a lot of belief that faculty are experts in their domain, by virtue of experts in their domain, that there's a lot of notions of self-rule, self governance and that sometimes extends out to administration. I will avoid pining too deeply on that. But there are some challenges that come from that. There's communication, there's logistical challenges. What you end up seeing is subcultural development about, this is important. And what I've observed, and I've seen this both in technology fields as well as accessibility is and let me take it out of the accessibility domain, my email team for many years thought they delivered the best email application out there. They understood how it worked, nobody else understood how it worked but it made a lot of sense to them, and they thought they were doing great. And, so, within their minds, they were providing heroic effort but the impact from a user perspective was not the heroic effort they thought it was going to be. I've observed similar challenges within accessibility at the campus as well. There are these pockets of brilliance, pockets of heroes that are out there working with good empathy this. The challenge is, they don't always have, or they have not been provided the degree of leadership to have these conversations more broadly. So, why is it that one of the very small questions that came up had to do with a resource allocation around providing captioning for course materials for students that had defined accessibilities -- defined accommodations and it became this substantial issue that the costs were decentralized out to each of the departments? And many of our departments, by virtue of being academic, tend to run on very thin budgets. So, when we stopped this conversation, we went into the pandemic, said, what is the net budget impact can here? I can't remember what the number was. Let's say it was $40,000 across the campus. You know, when I brought it up to the right degrees of leadership, they're, like, we're arguing over this? $1.3 billion budget. Don't get me wrong, $40,000 is real money but that's not the thing we should be arguing. By virtue of us decentralizing decision making to that being 40 decisions of $1,000 each, it became much more difficult to get the resource allocation. So the key observation I'd say is, clearly articulating why this is important, clearly articulating that when we marshal our resources collectively, we can make changes that don't seem so big when you're working in a larger context and it really involves that collaboration between and amongst groups and I've actually been very pleased, I think, going through the review with G3ict, certainly delivered us a road map, it certainly delivered us a maturity model, it gave us a sense of where we sat, but it actually opened up conversations amongst teams that have worked and sat together for many, many years but those conversations weren't as effective. You know, we always joke, my background, like I said, is information security with auditors. If the audit doesn't tell you what you want to know, you did something wrong, right? I will say, I have been very pleased with James, had a very objective, and the team he brought in was excellent, but it told us what we wanted to hear, you've got some pockets of brilliance but there's some coordination, there's some logistics, alignment you need to do. Having a third party assert that brought more credibility to this notion of accessibility than any empathetic call from staff on campus could have. JAMES: Thank you for that, Chris. And I think to your credits, and we've done a good number of these reviews of universities and of smart cities as well, I think one of the things that you did was pretty courageous, I think, you involved an enormous number of people from both the academic side of the university and the administrative side in a large number of conversations. I think over these ten conversations that our expert team had with your university community, there were 200 participants, 40 unique individuals, I think, but they were heavily attended, some of the discussions were quite passionate, I will say, because the passion was there. Can you talk a little bit about where -- recognizing and wanting to make even more progress on collaboration and breaking down some of these silos and amplifying some of these heroic efforts. Either where some of these -- what are some of these pockets that you would love to see replicated and I'd also be curious to hear a little bit about what are some of the groups that can help promote this kind of collaboration? We had talked, in particular, in our conversations with U Mass, the faculty Senate actually had been pretty engaged on these issues of accessibility. There is an academic advisory committee, I think, on accessibility. Are there any sort of areas that or groups that can help you as the CIO promote this collaboration? CHRIS: Yeah, you know, that's a great question, James. One of the key things, and one of the things that I found sort of helpful to me in my career, both in the CIO role I'm in, and previously in the information security role, is identifying those governance structures and where they have efficacy. That's one of the things that I've observed at least in some of the accessibility staff I've worked with. They have passion, they have technical focus, they have deep empathy and deep caring, but they don't have the experience with how universities govern themselves or what the governance structures are, where decision authority really rests. It's great to think, you know, I've had staff that think I have all sorts of decision authority, I have responsibility for my $30 odd million of budget, but sort of the extent of the responsibility I have, I have responsibility for standards, as we get into decision making, I have to tie into bodies like our faculty Senate, I have the information technology advisory council, some of these academic advisory councils. We have other both faculty and administration, leadership groups, task forces that are focused on the shared governance structure of universities, we have administrative focus units. So working with accessibility teams to identify where those power structures exist, how change occurs in an institution, and how you can be effective at making this case amongst all the other many cases, that was one of the key things, which again, I was fortunate to have a lot of this experience in information security, I observed many of my peers in information security, other institutions, come in and try to win the day of information security solely on technical merit. Like, well, we're going to go to this, we're going to spend another $100,000 on this new antivirus thing, because it's incrementally better than this other thing. And quite honestly, when you're making that case to a CFO or to a Chancellor or Provost, that's $100,000 for a technical thing I don't understand. Whereas, if you can turn it into a conversation about, either mediating institutional risk, delivering institutional benefit, understanding how change actually occurs on a campus, when you make that case in business terms, it becomes more rational and plausible amongst the thousand other things the Provost or the Chancellor or the CFO has been asked in the last day. So that's the key transition for me, how do you find those power structures, how do you identify those governance structures, how do you make it a business value proposition, not solely a technical or empathetic proposition. JAMES: That's actually a perfect segue, Chris, into a topic that I know you feel passionately about and that we recognize as well in our assessment tool, the maturity model is really pretty critical to an increasing commitment and capability on accessibility, inclusion. And that is what we call, you know, the business case for accessibility. Moving beyond, particularly here in the United States, every university has a legal requirement to be accessible and inclusive, in other countries as well, but you and I are sitting or standing here in the U.S. today. But we'd like to sort of move the conversation beyond risk avoidance and legal compliance to what is the business case? As you say, the why or the value proposition, of accessibility. Based on your experience, either over the past year as a result of or as part of this assessment, or just in general, can you talk a little bit more about that, that key issue of how you are trying to tap into the why and the value proposition at U Mass? CHRIS: Absolutely. So, one of the key value conversations we have on a regular basis, and this is not a conversation unique to U Mass, it's not a conversation even unique to the northeastern United States, but within the United States, there is a significant decline coming in college-age students in the coming years based off of just changes in birth rates, patterns like that. What you're seeing is increasing competition within the field for high-qualified students, you've seen this manifest through, U Mass was deeply involved in the closure of mount IDO, we actually took over parts of the campus, we inherited some of the students from there, you know, recently, I know Becker college in Worcester announced that it is intending to close as well. One of the key things that drives university budgets is attracting, retaining strong students to maintain competitiveness. And if the population is shrinking, one way from a business value perspective is to make sure that you're delivering a natively accessible education to appeal to as broad a population of students as possible. If we are, by virtue of not providing accessible content, unintentionally excluding some arbitrary percentage, say, even 5% or 10% of our students. That's 10% of a student population that will not become paying students, high-quality students. We're excluding a portion of our population that could engage. And that's based on a conjecture of 10%. If the conjecture is much higher, we could be unintentionally avoiding potential population when we know there's going to be restrictions in that. So from a very raw perspective, if budgets are driven at institutions through a combination of both undergraduate, graduate tuition, and research education, if we're not strongly positioned, meeting the market demand, and that can either be meeting market demand because there's a growth or being more competitive and approachable to a larger population, if there's a reduction in that student -- potential student population. We are not tied into the strategic mission of the institution to provide our role as a land grant, to provide instruction to residents of the commonwealth and to create a workforce for the commonwealth. We have over 250,000 living alumni from U Mass, vast majority of them stay in Massachusetts. At U Mass, we graduate more students than the top eight private institutions from the state of Massachusetts combined. That means we're tied deeply to the workforce. So, if we cannot find a way to make our content accessible and approach that, we're not only risking our own potential economic future, but we're actually risking issues of workforce development and long-term competitiveness of the state potentially. JAMES: Yeah. A couple thing in there that I would love to follow up on. One is, you've talked about the role of students, the diversity of students as a driver for the competitiveness of U Mass in fulfilling your many roles as a land grant state university. As you're thinking about the why and the value proposition, are you having discussions or thinking about, we certainly discussed this as part of our engagement, the technology assets you're deploying, the accessibility of them, it also impacts faculty and staff, is that part of the calculus as well? CHRIS: It absolutely is. Because, again, that same, you know, rubric holds, as we remain a competitive institution, we have to be competitive in our hiring practices. And that means approaching as broad a population of the available talent pool out there. If we are not delivering natively accessible experiences, whether that is directly instructional or it's, you know, pedantic as H.R. forms, right, everybody's got to do an H.R. form somewhere, but if we're delivering, and we've had our challenges in the institution of three copy, carbon forms that, you know, our vice Chancellor of human resources loves to say, he shut off the last -- he got rid of the last typewriter not that many years ago, right? There's clearly some substantial issues that we've had. If we're not competitive with the potential workforce, both at the highly skilled faculty level, at the highly skilled technical level, but at all levels of the organization, we're going to potentially compromise the available resource pool as well. So, again, if it comes back to business case, I see a compelling business case to make sure accessibility is core to our digital transformation because it allows our long-term access to a larger candidate pool. With the move to remote work, we're having very serious conversations, what does that mean, long term, right? We've had staff working remotely, we're going to struggle, like every other public and private institution is now, what does it mean for workforces returning, if the pandemic slows as we're hoping? Would we accept this notion of more broad remote work? Does that increase our potential labor pool? Those are all interesting questions that are going to have to be worked out. But if we cannot position our institution to be natively digitally inclusive, we're excluding a portion of our population that may have accessibility accommodations that we're just turning our back to from the get-go. And that's a challenge. That's a loss both to us and it's a loss of potentially high talented, high-skill individuals that could make this university stronger. JAMES: So, Chris, I would imagine that with your expertise and experience in the information security space, you've sort of tackled this issue of the value proposition, the why of security. How is the starting conversations, advancing conversations about the business case, the why and the value proposition, of accessibility, how is that being received? Where is it being received well, where is it a bit more of a struggle? CHRIS: I'd say it's being received well at the high level when I talk about this notion of making sure we're finding the most accessible pool, we're making -- ensuring we're going to remain competitive, tying to workforce. I think the value proposition, executive level, is very strong there. We've always been very successful at the value proposition at a very operational level, for our students and our staff that are providing accessibility accommodations, who are working with students on a one-to-one basis, for our help desk who are taking calls. Where the challenge is, and I think we've had a path to move forward, is for people who do not have either the high-level strategy, do not have the day-to-day blocking and tackling is trying to make the value proposition of why is this one more thing they should do, why should you take ten more minutes to ensure accessibility, alt image tags, why should you take two more minutes to turn on the captioning features in Zoom or PowerPoint? So, I ended up teaching again this fall, I taught for many years at U Mass, I took a number of years off. When I taught this fall, I taught entirely remotely, I taught entirely by Zoom. Zoom's native captioning feature wasn't there. So, I elected to use PowerPoint, use Office 365, turn on the captioning when I lectured. I use Zoom to record the lecture. And it put the captions into it. It's not perfect. It wasn't great.  But the cost to me was thinking to do it, clicking a check box on Office 365 on PowerPoint and making sure I hit play and record. So, the incremental burden to me of applying captioning to course content, and I've taught this course material for 20 years, this is the first year I did that. So, there is two minutes of clicking, it took me about ten minutes going through each of my slide decks to apply alt image tags. That investment of my time as an instructor is absolutely worth it to make sure that content is more accessible. And that's the value proposition I think we have to hit that middle portion of the population, if we can move that population, the impact is going to be tremendous. SPEAKER: With the adoption of WCAG 2.1 in many countries, there is an increased demand for web developers, designers and other professionals with knowledge of web accessibility standards and guidelines. With this growth comes the need for an objectively verified level of expertise. The Web Accessibility Specialist exam will provide individuals and employers with the ability to assess web accessibility competence. Complete the WAS and CPACC exam to earn the special designation of Certified Professional in Web Accessibility! 

On this week's episode, Steph and Chris respond to a listener question about how to know if we're improving as developers. They discuss the heuristics they think about when it comes to improving, how they've helped the teams they've worked with plan for and measure their growth, and some specific tips for improving. Rails Autoscale (https://railsautoscale.com/) Rubular regex playground (https://rubular.com/) The Pragmatic Programmer (https://pragprog.com/titles/tpp20/the-pragmatic-programmer-20th-anniversary-edition/) Go Ahead, Make a Mess by Sandi Metz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi3DClfGuqQ) Confident Code - Avdi Grimm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8J0j2xJFgQ) Therapeutic Refactoring - Katrina Owen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4dlF0kcThQ) Refactoring, Good to Great - Ben Orenstein (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC-pQPq0acs) Transcript CHRIS: There's something intriguing about the fact that we're having this conversation, but the thing that's recorded just starts at this arbitrary point in time, and it's usually us rambling about golden roads. But, I don't know; there's something existential about that. STEPH: It's usually when someone says something very funny or starts singing [laughs], and then that's when we immediately: record, record! CHRIS: I've never sung on the mic. That doesn't sound like a thing I would do. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So Steph, how's your week going? STEPH: Hey Chris, it's going really well. Normally I'm always like, wow, it's been such an exciting week, and it's been a pretty calm, chill week. It's been lovely. CHRIS: That sounds nice actually in contrast to the "Well, it's been a week," that sort of intro of "I don't know, it's been fine. It can be really nice." STEPH: By the time we get to this moment of the week, I either have stuff that I'm so excited to talk about and have a little bit of a therapy session with you or share something new that I've learned. I agree; it's nice to be like, yeah, it's been smooth sailing this whole week. In fact, it was smooth sailing enough that I decided to take on something that I've been meaning to tackle for a while but have just been avoiding it because I have strong feelings about this, which you know but we haven't talked about yet. But it comes down to managing emails and how many emails one should have that are either unread that are just existing. And I fall into the category of where I am less scrupulous about how many unread or managed emails that I have. But I decided that I'd had enough. So I used a really nice filter in Gmail where I said I want all emails that are before 2021 and also don't have a user label, so it's has:nouserlabels because then I know those are all the emails that I haven't labeled or assigned to a particular...I want to say folder, but they're not truly folders; they just look like folders. So they're essentially like untriaged or just emails that I've left hanging out in the ether. And then I just started deleting, and I got rid of all of those that hadn't been organized up until that point. And I was just like yep, you know if I haven't looked at it, it's that old, and I haven't given a label by this point, I'm just going to move on. If it's important, it will bubble back up. And I feel really good about it. CHRIS: Wow, that is -- I like how you backed me into a corner. Obviously, I'm on the other side where I'm fastidiously managing my email, which I am, but you backed me into that corner here. So, yeah, that's true. Although the approach that you're taking of just deleting all the old email that's a different one than I would have taken [chuckles] so, I like it. It's the nuclear option. STEPH: Okay, so now I need to qualify. When you delete an email, initially, I'm thinking it's going to trash, and so it's still technically there if I need to retrieve it and go back and find it. But you just said nuclear option, so maybe they're actually getting deleted. CHRIS: They're going into the trash for 30 days; I think is the timeline. But after that, they will actually delete them. The archive is supposed to be the place where you put stuff I don't want to see you anymore. But did you archive or delete? STEPH: Oh, I deleted. CHRIS: Oh, wow. Yeah. All right, you went for it. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, and that's cool. And it's in trash. So I basically have a 30-day window where I'm like, oh, I made a mistake, and I need to search for something and find something and bring it back into my world; I can find it. If I haven't searched for it by then in 30 days, then I say, you know, thanks for the email, goodbye. [chuckles] And it'll come back if it needs to. CHRIS: I like the approach. It would not be my approach, but I like the commitment to the cause. Although you still have...how many emails are still in your inbox now? STEPH: Why do we have to play the numbers game? CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: Can't we just talk about the progress that I have made? CHRIS: What wonderful progress you've made, Steph. [laughter] Like, it doesn't matter what I think. What do you think about this? Are you happy with this? Does this make you feel more joy when you look into your email in the Marie Kondo sense? STEPH: It does. I am excited that I went ahead and cleared all this because it just felt like craft. So I have taken what may be a very contentious approach to my email, where I treat it as this searchable space. So as things come in, I triage them, and I will label them, I will star them. I will either snooze them to make sure I don't miss the high actionable emails or something that's very important to me to act on quickly. But for the most part, then a lot of stuff will sit in that inbox area. So it becomes like this junk drawer. It's a very searchable junk drawer, thanks to Google. They've done a great job with that. And it feels nice to clear out that junk drawer. But I do have such an aversion to that very strong email inbox zero. I respect the heck out of it, but I have an aversion; I think from prior jobs where I was on a team, and we could easily get like 800 emails a day. My day all day was just triaging and responding to emails and writing emails. And so I think that just left a really bitter experience where now I just don't want to have to live that life where I'm constantly catering to what's in my inbox. CHRIS: That's so many emails. STEPH: It was so many emails. We were a team. It was a team inbox. So there were three of us managing this inbox. So if someone stepped away or if someone was away on vacation, we all had access to the same emails. But still, it was a lot of emails. CHRIS: Yeah, inbox zero in a shared inbox that is a level that I have not gotten to but getting to inbox zero and actually maintaining that is very much a labor of love and something that I've had to invest in. And it's probably not worth it for most people. You could convince me that it is not worth it for me, that the effort I'm putting in is too much effort for not enough reward. Well, it's one of those things where I find the framing that it puts on it, like, okay, I need to process my email and get it to zero at least once a day. Having that lens makes me think about email in a different way. I unsubscribe from absolutely everything. The only things that are allowed to come into my email are things that I will act on that actually deserve my attention, and so it forces that, which I really like. And then it forces me to think about things. I have a tendency to really hold off on decisions. So I'm like, ah, okay. I can go see friends on Saturday or I can do something else. Friends like actual humans, not the TV show, although for the past year, it's definitely more of the TV show than the real people. But let's say there's a potential thing that I could do on the weekend and I have to decide on that. I have a real tendency to drag my feet and to wait for some magical information from the universe to help this decision be obvious to me. But it's never going to be obvious, and at some point, I just need to pick. And so for inbox zero, one of the things that comes out of it for me is that pressure and just forcing me to be like, dude, there's no perfect answer here, just pick something. You got to just pick something and not wasting multiple cycles rethinking the same decision over and over because that's my natural tendency. So in a way, it's, I don't know, almost like a meditative practice sort of thing. There's utility there for me, but it is an effort, and it's, again, arguably not worth it. Still, I do it. I like it. I'm a fan. I think it's worth it. STEPH: I like how you argued both sides. I'm with you. I think it depends on the value that you get out of it. And then, as long as you are effective with whichever strategy you take, then that's really what matters. And I do appreciate the lens that it applies where if you are getting to inbox zero every day, then you are going to be very strict about who can send you emails about notifications that you're going to receive because you are trying to reduce the work that then you have to get to inbox zero. So I do very much admire that because there are probably -- I'm wasting a couple of minutes each day deleting notifications from chats or stuff that I know I'm not necessarily directly involved in and don't need action from me. And then I do get frustrated when I can't adjust those notification settings for that particular application, and I'm just subscribed to all of it. So some of it I feel like I can't change, and then some of it, I probably am wasting a few minutes. So I think there's totally value in both approaches. And I'm also saying that to try to justify my approach of my searchable inbox. [laughs] CHRIS: There are absolutely reasons to go either way. And also, to come back to what I was saying a minute ago, it may have sounded like I'm a person who's just on top of this. I may have given that impression briefly. I think the only time this has actually worked in my life is when Gmail introduced snooze both in the mobile app and on the desktop. So this is sometime after Google's inbox product came out, and that was eventually shut down. So it's relatively recent because, man, I just snooze everything. That is the actual secret to achieving inbox zero, just to reach the end of the day and be like, nah, and just send all the emails to future me. And then future me wakes up and is like, "You know, it's first thing in the morning. I got a nice cup of coffee, and this is what you're going to do to me, past me?" So there's a little bit of internal strife there within my one human. But yeah, the snoozing is actually incredibly useful and probably the only way that I actually get things done and the same within any task management system that I have; maybe future me will do this. STEPH: I think you and I both subscribed to the that's a future me problem. We just do it in very different ways. But switching gears a bit, how's your week been? CHRIS: It's been good, pretty normal, doing some coding, normal developer things. Actually, there's one tool that I was revisiting this week that I'm not sure that we've actually talked about on the show before, but it's Rails Autoscale. Have you used that before? STEPH: I don't think I have. It sounds very familiar, but I don't think I've used it. CHRIS: It's a very nice, straightforward Heroku add-on that does exactly what you want it to do. It monitors your web and worker dynos and will scale up. But it uses a different heuristic than -- So Heroku has built-in autoscaling, but theirs is based on response time, which is, I think, a little bit laggier of a metric. Like if your response time has gotten bad, then you're already in trouble, whereas Rails Autoscale uses queue time. So how long is a request waiting before? I think it's at the Heroku router; it goes onto the dyno that's actually going to process the request? So I think that's what they're monitoring. I may be wrong on that. But from the website, they're looking at that, and you can configure it. They actually have a really nice configuration dashboard for configure between this range, so one to five dynos at most, and scale in this way up and in this way down. So like, how long should it wait? What's the threshold of queue time? Those sorts of things. So they have a default like just do the smart thing for me, and then they give you more control if your app happens to have a different shape of data, which is all really nice. And then I've been using that for a while, but I recently this week actually just turned on the worker side. And so now the workers will autoscale up and down as the Sidekiq queue -- I think for the Sidekiq side, it's also the queue time, so how long a job sits in the queue before getting picked up. And there are some extra niceties. It can actually infer the different queue names that you have. So if you have a critical, and then a mailer, and then a general as the three queues that Sidekiq is managing, you really want critical to not back up. So you can tell it to watch that one but ignore the normal one and only use -- Like, when critical is actually getting backed up, and all the other stuff is taken over then -- Again, it's got nice knobs and things, but mostly you can just say, "Turn it on and do the normal thing," and it'll do a very smart thing." STEPH: That does sound really helpful. Just to revisit, so Heroku for autoscaling, when you turn that on, I think Heroku does it based on response times. So if you get into a specific percentile, then Heroku is going to scale up for you to then bring down that response time. But it sounds like with this tool, with Rails autoscaling, then you have additional knobs like the Sidekiq timing that you'd referenced. Are there some other knobs that you found really helpful? CHRIS: Basically, there are two different sides of it. So web and background jobs are going to be handled differently within this tool, and you can actually turn them on or off individually, and you can also, within them, the configurations are specific to that type of thing. So for the web side, you have different values that you can set as the thresholds than you do on the Sidekiq side. Overall, the queue name only makes sense on the Sidekiq side, whereas on the web side, it's just like the web requests all of them 'Please make sure they're not spending too much time waiting for a dyno to actually start processing them.' But yeah, again, it's just a very straightforward tool that does the thing that it says on the tin. I enjoy it. It's one of those simple additions where it's like, yeah, I think I'm happy to pay for this because you're just going to save me a bunch of money every month, in theory. And actually, that side of it is certainly interesting, but more of my app will be responsive if there is any spike in traffic. There's still plenty of other performance things under the hood that I need to make better, but it was nice to just turn those on and be like, yeah, okay. I think everything's going to run a little better now. That seems nice. But yeah, otherwise, for me, a very straightforward week. So I think actually shifting gears again, we have a listener question that we wanted to chat about. And this is one that both of us got very interested to chat about because there's a lot to this topic, but I'm happy to read it here. So the overall topic is improving as a developer, and the question goes, "How do you know you're improving as developers? Is your improvement consistent? Are there regressions? I find myself having very different views about code than I did even a year ago. In some cases, I write code now in a way that I would have criticized not too long ago. For example, I started writing a lot more comments. I used to think a well-named variable obviated the need for comments. While it feels like I'm improving, I have no way of measuring the improvement. It's only a gut feeling. Thanks. Love the show." And this comes from Tom. Thank you, Tom. Glad you enjoy the show. So, Steph, are you improving as a developer? STEPH: I love this question. Thanks, Tom, for sending it in because it is one that I think about but haven't really verbalized, and so I'm really excited to dive into this. So am I improving as a developer? It comes down to, I mean, we first have to talk through definitions. Like, what does it mean to become a better developer? And then, we can talk through metrics and understanding how we're getting there. I also love the other questions, which I know we'll get to. I'm just excited. But are there any regressions? And also, in my mind, they already answered their own question. But I'm getting ahead of myself. So let me actually back up. So how do you know you're improving as a developer? There are a couple of areas that come to mind. And for me, these are probably more in that space of they still have a little bit of a gut feeling to them, but I'm going to try hard to walk that back into a more measurable state. So one of them could be that you're becoming more comfortable with the work that you're doing, so if you are implementing a new email flow or running task on production or writing tests that become second nature, those types of activities are starting to feel more comfortable. To me, that is already a sign of progress, that you are getting more comfortable in that area. It could be that time estimates are becoming more accurate. So perhaps, in the beginning, they're incredibly -- like, you don't have any idea. But as you are gaining experience and you're improving as a developer, you can provide more accurate estimates. I also like to use the metric of how many people are coming to you for help, not necessarily in hard numbers, but I tend to notice when someone on a team is the person that everybody else goes to for help, maybe it's just on a specific topic, maybe it's for the application in general. But I take that as a sign that someone is becoming very knowledgeable in the area, and that way, they're showing that they're improving as a developer, and other people are noticing that and then going to them for help. Those are a couple of the ones that I have. I have some more, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. CHRIS: I think if nothing else, starting with how would we even measure this? Because I do agree it's going to be a bit loose. Unfortunately, I don't believe that there are metrics that we can use for this. So the idea of how many thousand lines of codes do you write a month? Like, that's certainly not the one I want to go with. Or, how many pull requests? Anything like that is going to get gamified too quickly. And so it's really hard to actually define truly quantifiable metrics. I have three in mind that scale the feedback loop length of time. So the first is just speed. Like, how quickly are you able to do the same tasks? So I need to build out a page in Rails. I need a route; I need a controller. I need a feature spec, those sort of things. Those tasks that come up over and over: are you getting faster with those? That's a way to measure. And there's an adage that I think comes from biking, professional cycling, that it never gets any easier; you just go faster. And so the idea is you're doing the same work over time, but you just get a little bit faster, and you're always trying that edge of your capabilities. And so that idea of it never gets any easier, but you are getting faster. I like that framing. We should be doing the same work. We should never get too good for building a crud app. That's my official stance on the matter; thank you very much. But yeah, so that's speed. I think that is a meaningful thing to keep an eye on and your ability to actually deliver features in a timely fashion. The next one would be how robust are the things that you're building? What's the bug count? How regularly do you have to revisit something that you've built to change it, to tweak it either because it doesn't exactly match the intent of the feature that you're developing or because there's an actual bug in it? It turns out this thing that we do is very hard. There are so many moving pieces and getting the design right and getting the functionality just right and handling user input, man, that's tricky. Users will just send anything. And so that core idea of robustness that's going to be more on a week scale sort of thing. So there's a little bit of latency in that measure, whereas speed that's a pretty direct measure. The third one is…I don't know how to frame this, but the idea of being able to revisit your code either yourself or someone else. So if you've written some code, you tried to solve a problem; you tried to encode whatever knowledge you had at the given time in the code. And then when you come back three months later, how easy is it to revisit that code, to change it, to extend it either for yourself (because at that point you've forgotten everything) or for someone else on the team? And so the more that you're writing code that is very easy to extend, that is very easy to revisit and reload that context into your head, how closely the code maps to the actual domain context I think that's a measure as well that I'm really interested in, but there's the most lag in that one. It's like, yeah, months later, did you do a good job? And so the more time you spend, the more you'll have a measure of that, but that's definitely the laggiest of the measures that I have in mind. STEPH: I love that adage that you shared that it never gets easier, but you get faster. That feels so relevant. I really like that. And then I hadn't considered the robustness. That's a really nice one, too, in terms of how often do you have to go back and revisit issues that you've added? CHRIS: You just write code without bugs; that's why you don't think about it. STEPH: [laughs] Oh, if only that were true. CHRIS: Yeah, if only that were true of any of us. STEPH: To keep adding to the list, there are a couple more that come to mind too. I'd mentioned the idea that certain tasks become easier. There's also the capability or the level of comfort in taking on that new, big, scary, unknown task. So there is something on the Teams' board where you're like, I have no idea how to do that, but I have confidence that I can figure it out. I think that is a really big sign that you are growing as a developer because you understand the tools that'll get you to that successful point. And maybe that means persuading someone else to help you; maybe it means looking elsewhere for resources. But you at least know how to get there, which then follows up on your ability to unblock yourself. So if you are in that state of I just don't know what to do next, maybe it's Googling, or maybe it is reaching out for help, but either way, you keep something moving forward instead of just letting it sit there. Another area that I've seen myself and other people grow as developers is our ability to reason about quality and speed. It's something that I feel you, and I talk about pretty often here on the show, but it comes down to our ability to not just write code but then to also make good decisions on behalf of the company that we are working for and the team that we're working with and understanding what matters in terms of what features really need to be part of this MVP? Where can we make compromises? And then figuring out where can we make compromises to get this out to market? But what's really important then for circling back to your idea of revisiting the code, we want code that we can still come back and trust and then easily maintain and make updates to. And then I feel like I'm rambling, but I have a couple more. Shall I keep going? CHRIS: Keep going. Those are great. STEPH: All right. So for the others, there's an increase in responsibilities that I notice. So, in addition to people coming to you more often for help, then it could be that you are receiving more responsibilities. Maybe you are taking on specific ownership of the codebase or a particular part of the team processes. Then that also shows that you are improving and that people would like you to take leadership or ownership of certain areas. And then this one, I am throwing it in here, but your ability to run a meeting. Because I think that's an important part of being a good developer is to also be able to run a meeting with your colleagues and for that to be a productive meeting. CHRIS: Cool. I like that one. I think I want to build on that because I think the core idea of being able to run a meeting well is communication. And I think there's one level of doing this job where it's just about doing the job. It's just about writing the code, maybe some amount of translating a specification or a ticket or whatever it is into the actual code that you need to write. But then how well can you communicate back out? How well when someone in project management says, "Hey, we want to build an aggregated search across the system that searches across our users, and our accounts, and our products, and our orders, and our everything." And you're like, "Okay. We can do that, but it will be hard. And let's talk about the trade-offs inherent in that and the different approaches and why we might pick one versus the other," being able to have that conversation requires a depth of knowledge in the technical but then also being able to understand the business needs and communicate across that boundary. And I think that's definitely an axis on which I enjoy pushing on as I'm continuing to work as a developer. STEPH: Yeah, I'm with you. And I think being a consultant and working at thoughtbot heavily influences my concept of improving as a developer because as developers, it's not just our job to write code but to also be able to communicate and help make good decisions for the team and then collaborate with everyone else in the company versus just implement certain features as they come down the pipeline. So communication is incredibly important. And so I love that that's one of the areas that you highlighted. CHRIS: Actually speaking of the communication thing, there's obviously the very human-centric part of that, but there's, I think, another facet of technical communication that is API design. When you're writing your code, what do you choose to expose and make accessible to collaborators? And I don't just mean API in the terms of a REST API that people are heading, but I mean a class that you have in your system. What are the private methods, and what are the public methods? And how do you think about the shape of it? What data do you expose? What do you not expose? And that can be really impactful because it allows how can you change things over time? The more that you hide, the more you can change. But then, if you don't allow your collaborators to access the bits that they need to be able to work with your system, that's an interesting one that comes to mind. It also aligns with, I don't think you were saying this exactly, but the idea of taking on more amorphous projects. So like, are you working within a system and adding a new feature, or are you designing a system? Are you architecting? The word architect that role can sometimes be complicated within organizations, but that idea of I'm starting fresh, and I'm building a system that others will then work within I think this idea of API design becomes really interesting in that context. What shape do you give to the system that we're working within, and what affordances? And all of that. And that's a very hard thing to get right. So it comes from experience of being like, I used some stuff in the past, and I hated it, so when I am the architect, I will build it better. And then you try, and you fail, and you're like, well, okay, but now I've learned. And then you try it, and then you fail for different reasons. But the seventh time you try, it may be just that time you get the public API just right on the first go. STEPH: Seven times's a charm. That's how that goes, right? CHRIS: That is my understanding, yes. STEPH: I think something that is related to the idea of are you working in a structured space versus working in a new space and then how you develop that API for other people to work with. And then how do you identify when to write a test and what to test? That's another area that you were just making me think of is that I can tell when someone has experience with testing because they know what to test and what feels important to test. And essentially, it comes down to can I deploy with confidence? But there are a lot of times, especially if you're new to testing, that you're going to test everything, and you're going to have a lot of probably useless slow tests. But over time, you will start to realize what's really important. And I think that's one of the areas where then it does start to get harder to measure yourself as a developer because all of our jobs are different, and we work with different tech stacks, and we all have our unique responsibilities and goals. So it may be hard to say specifically like, "Oh, you're really good at X, Y, and Z, and that's how you know that you're improving as a developer." But I have more thoughts on that, which we'll get to in a moment where Tom mentioned that they don't have a way of measuring improvement. Shall I go ahead and jump ahead to I have no way of measuring that improvement, or shall we talk about regressions next? CHRIS: I'm interested in your thoughts on the regressions question because it's not something that I've really thought about. But now that he's asked the question, I'm thinking about it. So yeah, what are your thoughts on that? STEPH: My very quick answer is yes, [laughs] that there are regressions mainly because I respect that our brain can only make so much knowledge readily available to us, and then everything else goes into long-term storage. We can access it at some point, but it takes additional time, or maybe it takes some practice to recall that skill. So I do think there are regressions, and I think that's totally fine that we should be focused on what is serving us most at the moment and be okay with letting go of some of those other skills until we need to refine them again. CHRIS: Yeah. I think there's definitely a truth to true knowledge and experience with, say, a framework or a language that can fade. So if I spend a lot of time away from JavaScript, and then I come back, I'm going to hit my head on a few low ceilings every once in a while for the first couple of days or weeks or whatever it is. It was interesting actually that Tom highlighted the idea of he used to not write comments, and now he writes more comments, and so that transition -- I think we've talked about comments enough so our general thinking on it. But I think it's totally reasonable for there to be a pendulum swing, and maybe there's a slight overcorrection. And you read some blog posts that tell you the truth of the world, and suddenly, absolutely no comments ever that's the rule. And then, later on, you're like, you know, I could really use a comment here. And so you go that way, and then you decide you know what? Comments are good, and you start writing a bunch of them. And so it's sort of weaving back and forth. Ideally, you're honing in on your own personal truth about comments. But that's just an interesting example to me because I certainly wouldn't consider that one a regression. But then there's the bigger story of like, how do we approach building software? Ideally, that's what this podcast does at its best. We're not really a podcast about Rails or JavaScript or whatever it is we're talking about that week, but we're talking about how to build software well. And I think those core ideas feel like they're more permanent for me, or I feel like I'm changing those less. If anything, I feel like I'm ratcheting in on what I believe about good software. And there are some core ideas that I'm just refining over time, not done by any means, but it's that I don't feel like I'm fundamentally reevaluating those core ideas. Whereas I am picking up a new language and approaching a new framework and taking a different approach to what tools I'm using, that sort of thing. STEPH: Yeah, I agree. The core concepts definitely feel more important and more applicable to all the future situations that we're going to be in. So those skills that may fall into the regression category feel appropriate because we are focused on the bigger picture versus how well do I remember this rejects library or something that won't serve us as well? So I agree. I am often focused more on how can I take this lesson and then apply it to other tech stacks or other teams and keep that with me? And I don't want that to regress. But it's okay if those other smaller, easily Google-able skills fall to the side. [laughs] CHRIS: Wait, are you implying that you can't write rejects just off the top of your head or what's…? STEPH: I don't think I could write any rejects off the top of my head. [laughter] CHRIS: Fair. All right. You just go to rubular.com, hit enter, and then we iterate. STEPH: Oh yeah. I don't want to use up valuable space for maintaining that sort of information. Rubular has it for me. I'm just going to go there. CHRIS: I mean, as long as you have the index of the places you go on the internet to find the truth, then you don't need to store that truth. STEPH: A moment ago, you mentioned where Tom highlights that they have different views about code that they wrote, even code that they wrote just like a year ago. And to me, that's a sign of growth in terms that you can look back on code that you have written and be like, well, maybe this would be different, or maybe this is still a good idea, but the fact that you are changing and then reevaluating, I think that is awesome because otherwise, if we aren't able to do that, then that is just a sign of being stagnant to me. We are sticking to the knowledge that we had a year ago, and we haven't grown since then versus that already shows that they have taken in new knowledge. So then that way, they can assess should I be adding comments? When should I add comments? Maybe I should swing away from that idea of this is a hard line of don't ever do this. I think I just have to mention it because there is one that I always feel so deeply about, DRY. DRY is the concept that gives me the most grief in terms that people just overuse it to the point that they do make code very hard to change. All right, that's my bit. I'll get off my pedestal. But DRY and comments are two things [chuckles] that both have their places. CHRIS: I don't know if your experience was similar, but around DRY, I definitely have had the pendulum swing of how I feel about it. And I think again, that honing in thing. But initially, I think I read The Pragmatic Programmers, and they told me that DRY is important. And then I was like, absolutely, there will be no duplication anywhere, and then I felt some pain from that. And I've been in other systems and experienced places where people did remove duplication. I was like, oh, maybe it would have been better, and so I slowly got out of that mindset. But now I'm just in the place of like, I don't know, copy and paste not now, there was a period where I was like, just copy and paste everything. And then I was like, all right, I think there's a subtle line. There's a perfect amount of duplication, and that's the goal is to figure out that just perfect level. But for me, it really has been that evolution, and I was on one side, and then I was on the other side, and then I'm honing back in. And now I have my personal truth about duplication. STEPH: Oh, me too. And I feel like I can be a little more negative about it because I was in the same spot. Because it's a rule, it's a rule that you can apply that when you are new to software development, there aren't that many rules that are so easy to apply to your codebase, but DRY is one of them. You can say, oh, that is duplication. I know exactly what that is, and I can extract it. And then it takes time for you to realize, okay, I can identify it, but just because it's there, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Perfect duplication, I like it. CHRIS: Coming back to the idea of when we look back on our code six months, a year later, something like that, I think I believe the statement that we should always look back on our code and be like, oh, what was I doing there? But I think that arc should change over time. So early on in my career, six months later, I look back at my code, and I'm like, oh, goodness, what was happening there? I was very much a self-taught or blog internet-taught programmer just working on my own. I had no one else to talk to. So the stuff that I wrote early on was not good is how I will describe it. And then I got better, and then I got better, and I hope that I'm still getting better. And it's something that probably draws me to software development is I feel like there's always room to get a little bit better. Again, even back to that adage of it doesn't get any easier; you just go faster. Like, that's a version of getting better in my mind. So I hope that I can continue to feel that improvement and that ratcheting up. But I also hope that that arc is leveling off. There is an asymptotic approach to "good software developer." People in the audience, you can't see my air quotes, but I made air quotes there around good software developer. But that idea of I shouldn't look back probably this far into my career and look back at code from three months ago and be like, that's awful. That dude should be fired. I hope I'm not there. And so if you're measuring over time, what does your three months ago look back feel like? Oh, I feel like it's a little better. Still, you should look back and be like, oh, I probably would do that a little bit different given what I know now, what I've learned, but less so, I think. I don't know, what do you think about that? STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm also realizing I haven't looked back at my code that much since I am changing projects, and then I don't always have the opportunity to go back to that project and then revisit some of the code. But I do agree with the idea that if you're looking back at code that you've written a couple of months ago that you can see areas that you would improve, but I agree that you wouldn't want it to be something drastic. Like, you wouldn't want to see something that was more of an obvious security hole or performance issue. I think there are maybe certain metrics that I would use. I think they can still happen for sure because we're always learning, but there's also -- I may be taking this in a slightly different direction than you meant, but there's also a kindness filter that I also want us to apply to ourselves where if you're looking back three months ago to six years ago and you're like, oh, that's some rough code, Stephanie. But it's also like, yeah, but that code got me to where I am today, and I'm continuing to progress. So I appreciate who I was in the past, and I have continued to progress to who I am today and then who I will be. CHRIS: What a wonderfully positive lens to put on it. Actually, that makes me think of one of -- We may be getting into rant territory here, but we talk a lot about imposter syndrome in the software development world. And I think there's a lot of utility because this is something that almost everyone experiences. But I think there's a corollary to it that we should talk about, which is a lot of people are coming into this industry, and they're like one year in, and the expectation that one year into a career that -- The thing that we do is not easy as far as I can tell. I haven't figured out how to make it easy. And the expectation that someone's going to be an expert that early on is just completely unreasonable in my mind. In my previous career, I was a mechanical engineer, and I went to school for four years. I actually went to school for five years, not because I was bad at school, but because I went to a place that had a co-op. And so I had both three different six months experiences working and four years of classroom education before I even got any job. And then I started doing things, and that's normal in that world. Whereas in the development world, it is so accessible, and I really feel like that's an absolutely wonderful thing. But the counterpoint of that is folks can jump into this career path very early on in their learning, and the expectation that they can immediately become experts or even in the short order I don't think is realistic. I think sometimes, when we talk about imposter syndrome, we may do a disservice. Like, it's not imposter syndrome. You're just new, and that's totally fine. And I hope you're working in an organization that is supportive of that and that has space for that and can help you grow in a purposeful way. In my mind, it's not realistic to expect everyone to be an expert a year in—end rant. STEPH: Well, I would love to plus-one your rant and add to it a little bit because I completely agree. I also love the phrasing that you just said where it's not that you have imposter syndrome; it's just that you are new and that team should be supportive of people that are new and helping them grow and level up. I also think that's true for senior developers in terms that you are very good at certain skills, but there's always going to be some area of the web or some area of software development that you are new to, and that is also not imposter syndrome. But it's fine to assess your own skills and say, "That's something that I don't know how to do." And sometimes, I think that gets labeled as imposter syndrome, but it's not. It's someone just being genuine and reflecting on their current skills and saying, "I am good at a lot of stuff, but I don't know this one, and I am new to this area." And I think that's an important distinction to make because I still want -- even if you are not new in the sense that you are new to being a software engineer, but you still have that space to be new to something. CHRIS: Yeah, it's an interesting, constantly evolving space. And so giving ourselves a little bit of permission to be beginners on various topics and for me, that's been an experience that's been continual. I think being a consultant, being a freelancer that impacts it a little bit. But nonetheless, even when I go into organizations, I'm like, oh, years in technology that only came out two years ago. That's pretty fresh. And so it's really hard to be an expert on something that's that new. STEPH: Yeah. I think being new to a team has its own superpower. I don't know if we've talked about that before; if we haven't, we should talk about, it but I won't do that now. But being new is its own superpower. But I do want to pivot back to where Tom mentioned that I have no way of measuring that improvement. And I think that's a really great thing to recognize that you're not sure how to measure something. And my very first honest suggestion if you are feeling that way is to go ask your manager and ask them how they are measuring your improvement because that is their job is to understand where you're at and to understand your path as a developer on the team and then helping you set goals. So since I'm a manager at thoughtbot, I'll go first, and I can share some ways that I help my team measure their own improvement. So one of the ways is that each time that we meet to discuss work, I listen to their challenges, and I take notes; I'm a heavy note-taker. And so once I have all those notes, then I can see are there any particular challenges that resurface? Are there any patterns, any areas where they continuously get stuck on? Or are they actually gaining confidence, and maybe something that would have given them trouble a couple of weeks ago is suddenly no big deal? And then I also see if they're able to unblock themselves. So a lot of what I do is far more listening, and I'm happy to then provide suggestions. But I am often just a space for someone to share what they are thinking, what they're going through, and then to walk through ideas and then provide suggestions if they would like some, and then they choose a suggestion that works best for them. And then we can revisit how did it go? So their ability to unblock themselves is also something that I'm looking for in terms of growth. And then together, we also set goals together, and then we measure that progress together. So it's all very transparent. And what areas would you like to improve, and then what areas would it be helpful for thoughtbot or as a consultant for you to improve? And then if I am fortunate enough to be on a project with them and see how they reason about quality and speed, how they communicate the type of features they're most comfortable to work on, and which tasks are more challenging for them, I also look to see do people enjoy working with them? That's a big area of growth and reflects communication, and reliability, and trust. And those are important areas for us to grow as developers. So those are some of the areas that I look to when I'm helping someone else measure their own improvement. CHRIS: I really like that, the structured framing of it, and the way that you're able to give feedback and have that as a constant, continuous way to evaluate, define, measure, and then try and drive towards it. Flipping things around, I want to offer a slightly different thing, which isn't necessarily specifically in the question, but I think it's very close to the question of how do we actually improve as developers? What are the specific things that we can try and do? I'm going to offer a handful of ideas. I'd be super interested to hear what your ideas are. But one of the things that has been really valuable for me is exploring different languages and frameworks. I, without fail, find something in every new language or framework that I then bring back to the core things that I'm working with. And I've continued to work with Rails basically throughout my career, but everything else that I'm doing has informed the way that I work with Rails and the way that I think about building code. As specific examples, functional programming is a really interesting frame of mind, and Elm as a language is such a wonderful, gentle, friendly, fun introduction to functional programming because functional programming can get very abstract very easily. I've also worked with Haskell and Scala and other languages like that, and I find them much more difficult to work with. But Elm has a set of constraints and a user-centric approach that is just absolutely wonderful. So even if you never plan to build a production Elm application, I recommend Elm to absolutely everyone. In terms of frameworks, depending on what you're using, maybe try and find the thing that's the exact opposite. If you're in the JavaScript space, I highly recommend Svelte. I think it's been very informative to me and altered a number of my opinions. A lot of those opinions were formed by React. And it's been interesting to observe my own thinking evolve in that space. But yeah, I think exploring, trying out, -- Have you ever used Lisp? Personally, I haven't, but that's one of the things that's on my list of that seems like it's got some different ideas in it. I wonder what I would learn from that. And so continually pushing on those edges and then bringing that back to the core work you're doing that's one of my favorite things. Another is… It's actually two-fold here. Teaching is one, and I don't mean that in the grand sense; you don't have to be an instructor at a bootcamp or anything like that but even just within your organization trying to host a lunch and learn and teach a concept. Without fail, you have to understand something all the better to be able to teach it. Or as you try and teach something, someone may ask you a question that just shakes the foundation of what you know, and you're like, wow, I hadn't thought about it that way. And so teaching for me has just been this absolutely incredible forcing function for understanding something and being able to communicate about it again, that being one of the core things that I'm thinking about. And then the other facet sort of a related idea is pairing, pair with another developer, pair with a developer who is more senior than you on the team, pair with someone who is more junior than you, pair with someone who's at the same level, pair with the designer, pair with the developer, pair with a product manager, pair with everyone. I cannot get enough pairing. Well, I can, actually. I read a blog post recently about 100% pairing, and I've never gotten anywhere close to that number. But I think a better way to put it is I think pairing applies in so many more contexts than people may traditionally think of it. People sometimes like to compartmentalize and like, pairing is great for big architecture design, but that's about it. And my stance would be pairing is actually great at everything. It is very high bandwidth. It is exhausting, but I have found immense value in every pairing session I've ever had. So, yeah, those are some loose thoughts off the top of my head. Do you have any how to get better protips? STEPH: Yeah, that's a wonderful list. And I'm not sure if this exactly applies because it's been a while since I have seen this talk, but there is a wonderful talk by Sandi Metz. I mean, all of her talks are wonderful, but this one is Go Ahead, Make a Mess. And I believe that Sandi refers to or highlights the idea of trying something new and then reflecting on how did it go? And that was one of the areas that I learned early on, one of the ways to help me progress quickly as a developer. Outside of the suggestions that you've already shared around lots of pairing that was one of the ways that I leveled up quickly is to iterate quickly. So I used to really focus on the code that I was writing, and I thought it needed to be perfect before my colleagues could review it. But then I realized that the sooner that I would push something out for feedback, then the faster I would get other more experienced developers' input, and then that helped me learn at an accelerated rate and then also ship more frequently. So I'd also encourage you to just go ahead and iterate quickly. We talk about with software in general, we want to iterate on the code that we are pushing up for other people to look at and then give us feedback on and then reflect on how did it go? What did we learn? What are some areas that we can improve? I feel like that self-evaluation is huge, and it's something that I know that I frankly don't do enough because one, it also prompts us to appreciate the progress that we have made but then also highlights areas where I feel strong in this area, but these are other areas that I want to work on. CHRIS: While we're on the topic of talks that have been impactful in our journeys of leveling up as developers, I want to quickly list three that just always come to mind for me: Avdi Grimm's Confident Code, Katrina Owen's Therapeutic Refactoring, and Ben Orenstein's Refactoring from Good to Great. There's a theme if you look across those three talks. They're all about refactoring, which is interesting. That tells you some stories about what I believe about how good software is made. It's not made; it's refactored. That's my official belief, but yeah. STEPH: Love it. That's also another great list. [laughs] For additional ways to level up, there are some very specific areas where it could be maybe do code katas or code exercises, or maybe you subscribe to certain newsletters, stay up to date with a language, new features that are being released. But outside of those very specific things, and if folks find this helpful, then maybe you and I can make a fun list, and then we could share that on Twitter as well. But I always go back to the idea of regardless of what level you're at in your career is to think about your specific goals, maybe if you are new to a team and you're new to software development, then maybe you just have very incremental goals of like, I want to learn how to write a test, or I want to learn how to get better at PR review or something very specific. But to have real growth, I think you have to first consider where it is that you want to go and then figure out a way to measure to get there. Circling back to some of the ways that I help my teammates measure that growth, that's one of the things that we talk about. If someone says, "Well, I want to get better at PR review," I'm like, "Great. What does that mean to you? Like, how do you get better at PR review? How can we actually measure this and make it something actionable versus just having this vague feeling of am I better?" I think I've ended up taking this a bit more broad as you were providing more specific examples on how to level up. But I like the examples that you've already provided around education and then trying something outside of your comfort zone. So what's coming to mind are more of those broad strategies of goal setting. CHRIS: I think generally, you need that combination. You need how do I set the measure? How do I think about improvement? And then also ideally a handful of tactics that you can try out. So hopefully, we provided a nice balanced summary here in this episode. And hopefully, Tom, if you're listening, you have gotten some useful things out of this conversation. STEPH: Yeah, this was fun. We managed to take this topic and make a whole episode out of this. So thanks, Tom, for sending in such a great topic. CHRIS: Frankly, when I saw the topic, I was certain this was going to happen. [chuckles] This was an obvious one that was going to fill up the time for us. But yeah, with that, I think we've probably covered plenty here. Should we wrap up? STEPH: I'm sure there's more, but sure, let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed or reach me @SViccari on Twitter. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. Both: Byeeeeeee. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. 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What do underwear models, Frank Sinatra impersonators, and a partnership with Anheuser-Busch have to do with selling alcohol? For Saucey, it was about changing consumer behavior in an industry that hasn’t truly been disrupted since the 1930s.  Chris Vaughn is the founder and CEO of Saucey, an alcohol delivery service. Since launching in LA in 2014, Saucey has broken into 20 metro areas and has continued to grow.  Getting off the ground wasn’t easy, though, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Chris takes us through the trials and tribulations of bringing Saucey into the market — from regulatory issues to investor and customer skepticism. Plus he explains how they pushed through the hardships and used edgy creativity to break into a market that was set on shutting them out.  Key Takeaways:   Bring On The Crazy Ideas: When working with smaller budgets, it’s critical to think outside the box with your marketing efforts. The money might not be there to do customer acquisition in traditional ways, so shifting to a scrappy mindset may be key. What partnerships can you form? What unique campaign can you launch that is outside of the traditional ones in your industry? Tune in to hear how Saucey generates new and noteworthy campaign and partnership ideas that generate results.  Disrupting An Undisrupted Industry: The alcohol industry has remained relatively the same since prohibition ended in 1933, mostly because of harsh regulatory guidelines and big brands owning most of the market. But, as buying behavior has moved online, enterprising companies like Saucey have capitalized on new opportunities. Why your first customer matters: Landing your first “name brand” client can make every future sale that much easier. Many companies got their start by being able to point to a well known first client, and seeming larger than they actually were. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. And today on the show we have Chris Vaughn, the CEO and Founder at Saucey. Chris, welcome. Chris: Thank you for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm excited to have you. It might be 9:00 AM here, but I'm trying to get into the beverage mindset right now. Thinking about my 5:00 PM drink. Chris: Yeah. Nice, good. I like that. Stephanie: Yeah, I know. So Saucey, tell me a little bit about what it is and how you started it, the whole backstory. I want to know it all. Chris: Sure. So we started Saucey in late 2013. We really had this hypothesis that... I guess even before it was a hypothesis, we have this idea that you could have basically anything you wanted delivered, but for some reason you couldn't have alcohol delivered. In some major cities like New York, The Bodegas would run it over to you and whatnot, but for the most part in a city like LA, where we're based, that really wasn't an option. Found that to be really interesting, particularly given that the buying behavior around alcohol seems to be such an impulse driven buy. I know I'm going to have dinner tonight. I know I'm going to buy groceries at some point this week or next week, and delivery for those categories, mirror that behavior. Chris: Grocery delivery is more about saving me the time of shopping the whole store. Food delivery is this convenience driven thing. I know I'm going to have dinner, but it's kind of, "What do I feel like having?" And alcohol is this heavily impulse driven by where maybe I have dinner and it gets to be eight, nine o'clock at night, I'm watching a show or Netflix or whatever it may be. And I feel like having, some wine or I feel like having a cocktail, or beer, or whatever it is, or some friends are going to come over and they text me, "Hey, you want to get together?" And then and then you need to buy something. And so given that the buying behavior was so again, I think a non-planned purchase occasion we found that delivery would be the perfect fit for that type of purchase. Chris: So we started to look into the industry a little bit, and I think that the things that really opened my eyes was there clearly have been very, very little innovation in the alcohol industry really since [prohibition 00:02:32]. Most of the innovation had taken place on the brand side, creating new brands, new brand categories, but very little to do with how alcohol gets distributed or purchased. It was also fascinating to see that the brick and mortar landscape had effectively been built out to mirror that type of impulse driven buying. There's more liquor stores in the United States than grocery stores or gas stations. And that mirrors this behavior of, "Oh, I feel like having something." Run out to the corner and go get it. Chris: Then lastly, I think we clearly identified that there was a huge brand loyalty when it came to the products. I'm a Bulleit Bourbon drinker, I'm a Tito's vodka drinker. I'm a Coors Light drinker, whatever it may be, but almost no loyalty when it came to retail. Yeah, I'm on my way home. We'll stop here. I'm on my way to my friend's house I'll stop there. With the exception of some major holidays. Major holidays, go to Costco, stock-up or some of that type of buying. We found that delivery would be the ideal use case where we could not only capture more of a customer's purchases than any of the traditional brick and mortar players, but obviously service and provide a solution to this need of this impulse driven buying, or this last minute buying. Chris: We actually came up with the idea where... or how we came up about Saucey was I had floated it by a very close friend of mine at the time we were working at another company, and my girlfriend at the time, now wife with three kids we were camping up in Yosemite and we went up on this big hike, and I just couldn't get it out of my head. And I was talking through it with her and she was like, "I think you should do this." I came back and shared it with my close friend, and another close friend of this company called Text Plus where we were all working. Daniel Leeb, and Andrew Zeck. Andrew Zeck was one of their head mobile engineers, and ran their whole iOS team. Daniel Leeb was effectively leading their product of those teams. Chris: I said, "Listen, I think there's a big opportunity in alcohol delivery. And I think that the margins are there to support the business. It's a little brutal in food and some of these other categories, I think we can do it and alcohol, and here's what I think it could look like." Immediately we started working together. Nights and weekends spending a lot of time on the weekends and late into the night, trying to put this thing together. Dan did all these initial mocks of what it would look like. We didn't have the name Saucey at the time. We were trying to think of different names. Andrew was starting to program what the prototype would be, and we were working on doing all the specs. Chris: And then I was out trying to find who our first liquor store partner was going to be working with legal counsel and then subsequently talking to the ABC and some of the regulatory committees, or the regulatory bodies on, "We would like to do this. How do we do it, not only in compliance, but what are some of the issues you guys have in this industry, and how, as we're thinking about it, how can we maybe solve some of that stuff?" Like underage drinking, and be more proactive about ID verification, or there's cash under the table transactions, have everything go through credit cards. It was a fascinating time, we started working on that, I want to say October, November 2013, we really got our heads down and we launched in May 2014. Chris: Our first ever delivery. So remember Andrew dispatched it, Dan and I drove it. Was a bottle of Johnny Walker black label, to a guy named Vincent Rella who we actually ended up hiring, not that long after. Stephanie: Oh, that's great. Go Vincent. Chris: Yeah, it was interesting times. Stephanie: How did Vincent find you? First customer, did he actually find your app, or how did he even stumble upon you guys? Chris: I think Vinnie had loosely known Andrew. We all posted on Facebook, and we did all these things, and he saw the post and just said, "Oh, I'll try that." And then we ran the order to him and he goes, "Yeah, I know that guy." And then it was exciting. And of course those early days, we got one order, two orders in a day. And we did all the deliveries ourselves, taking turns on a schedule throughout the week, having to rotate who is going to be dispatching, who was going to be out delivering. An internal irony to the story was we wanted the service. We wanted to be able to order a bottle of wine, or a case of beer or something to your house, and so we built it. But what we actually ended up doing is just all of our time, seven days a week was out delivering to everybody else, and then we could never use it ourselves. So it was interesting. Stephanie: How it works. When you guys were doing that, any funny stories that you remember from when you were personally delivering, or doing the pickups and drop offs? Chris: Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of interesting stuff. I think- Stephanie: Here we go. Chris: ... we did probably a thousand orders between us before we started really hiring any outside couriers. At the time alcohol delivery was also very new, which I think is interesting. When you think about delivery as a category, food delivery has been around for decades, grocery delivery has been around for decades in one form or another, used to be able to call it the corner grocery store or place a fax order, and have things brought to you from your local market. Alcohol delivery in most major metros started six or seven years ago with us and a few others. And so it was a very new behavior. I think all the customers in the early days, the first additional hurdle, everyone was just asking, "Is this legal?" Everybody. Investors, customers, et cetera. Chris: We had to do a lot of work, both in our email content, as well as in our investor materials to walk through conversations we had had with the regulatory bodies, what the law says, how we think about these different things. So those early were just like, "Is this legal? I don't know, I'll try it sounds cool." Stephanie: Like sneaking out behind their bush, like, "Okay, drop off the goods." Chris: Exactly. And we'd show up in 25, 30 minutes and they were blown away, but we definitely had a couple of customers open their door, just totally nude, and totally unfazed. And you had to do a double take, and then, "Can I see your ID?" They'd walk back, come back, still totally naked, hand you their ID, you'd scan it and then turn over their order. That definitely happened more than once. Stephanie: Odd. Chris: People with unusual animals or pets. There was one customer that had like a snake wrapped around her arm. I remember one of those delivered, and was trying to hand it to her, and the snake's on her arm. And we were like, "Wow, this is some interesting stuff." But also lots of just, fairly standard and normal deliveries for the most part, people just super excited to use the service, and check out what it was all about. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really fun. So what kind of challenges did you run into when you were starting this, and working with these agencies and whatnot? Chris: Yeah. Licensing and working with licensed retailers is a challenge. The regulatory environment of alcohol being different on the state by state basis. So you're effectively dealing with 50 countries in the US, as opposed to having the rules all be the same. You can't ship alcohol across state lines, spirits and other things. So there's just a lot of barriers and a lot of reasons as to why Ecommerce has not taken place historically in alcohol, while fashion, and consumer electronics, and even cars and all these other things have picked up. Big followings in the Ecommerce world, set up at East Coast warehouse, a West Coast distribution center, take online orders, ship them out to everybody, and then optimize more distribution centers, see a faster delivery times. Chris: In alcohol, there is a whole series of barriers. One, that you mentioned is regulatory. You have to work with a licensed retailer, or get a license yourself. You're going to get a license yourself, and you don't previously have one that can be a very long and arduous process as to proving you are who you say you are, there's something in alcohol called the three tier system, which means you can only effectively be a manufacturer, a brand like Anheuser-Busch, a distributor like Southern & Wine Spirits, or Southern Glazer's, or a retailer. And if you're one, you can't be the other. So alcohol flows through about three to your system. There's some exceptions in wine, obviously, but it divides up the industry in many ways. Chris: There's many reasons why, I think even in like the private equity world there's been roll-ups of laundromats, there's been roll-ups of car washes. There's been roll-ups of grocery chains. There's been roll-ups basically any category you can think of. When it comes to alcohol, it can get pretty difficult because when you're trying to roll-up a bunch of liquor stores or roll-up a bunch of these licensed entities, these different regulatory bodies want to know every single person that has even a fractional amount of ownership. So you could have a PE firm, or a venture firm, all of a sudden being in a situation where they're having to go back to their LPs to get identification cards for people to list them on licenses. And so it's just a very challenging environment as to how people have been able to operate in this space. Chris: I think also because of the shipping regulations you had a lot of categories that were it's not as simple as setting it up and shipping. And then take that a step further when you think about fundraising, or capital, a lot of endowment funds, pension funds have carve-outs for things, like don't touch anything to do with alcohol, tobacco, firearms, pornography. So there's entire institutions, or very large venture funds, or funds of funds that have invested in all these different VCs that in those early days just wouldn't touch alcohol as a category. So when you think about building a service in an Ecommerce space where you can't ship all over the place, that's a challenge. Everywhere you go you have to deal with licenses and/or different regulatory guidelines on a state by state basis. That's a challenge. Chris: When you're looking to raise capital, large sums of capital to go and attack this big problem. And there's a whole swarms of buckets of capital that literally can't touch the category. That's an uphill battle. And so most, I think the capital injections into the industry have usually been families that have come in, or you've seen someone's creating a brand. They usually do these friends and family rounds. But again, very little going into like a big marketplace, or very little venture or private equity money pouring into the space over the years. Some of the big challenges that we had was in all of those buckets. We launched in LA, but then dealing with even expanding into other cities, looking at the regulatory environment as you go into other markets, thinking about licenses and protecting our partners' licenses, and ensuring ID verification, the way that payments worked, worked properly. Chris: You just have to be very careful on the regulatory side and on the capital raising side, you have to be very resourceful in thinking about who your partners are going to be, and who you'd be able to raise capital from. I think some of that's changed now, particularly during COVID and the acceleration of a lot of things online, you're seeing all sorts of barriers, and regulatory guidelines be changed or altered in some ways to adapt to this new normal, and that includes capital as well. But back then, it was very much a little bit of a taboo service, and taboo marketplace that we had to raise money for. Stephanie: Yeah. I was just going to say, with all of those things you have to think about, and then you also have to think about building local marketplaces to find the drivers, and find the retailers, and the customers, how did you figure out which steps needed to come first without getting overwhelmed? Because that whole list that you just gave me, I'm like, "Oh, I would have given up, that's like very intense and I don't even know where to start." So how did you unravel that, and figure out, "Here's things that we want to focus on first?" Like, did you focus on the product, or the regulatory aspect, or did you like divide and conquer? Chris: We divided and conquered I think the way as founders, we've been extremely fortunate that we just work really well together. We still hang out together. We're still very close friends today. That's not always the case with people who have been working together for over six years this closely. But we couldn't find a better group of people to work with and just have inherent trust in each other as we're building this thing. A lot of my role in those early days was the regulatory, and compliance and working with the different regulatory bodies, legal councils and whatnot, and that really was gating factor one. You don't do that correctly, as we saw with other services, you could be shut down tomorrow, or your ops could be turned off, and then you could also have that stigma against your business. So you got turned off, you were a little blahzay about how you were thinking about the rules in a regulated environment. We had to be just above reproach when it came to that. Chris: Two, Dan, and Andrew were really focused on the product and engineering. And then when we put those things together, it was a definitely collective effort, but that also fell heavily on my plate as it related to capital raising. So Dan and Andrew in many ways we're running and setting up a lot of the operations and business product, the design, the roadmap, and I was out there bringing in the dollars, and making sure that we don't all get arrested. It was very good in the early days to be able to work that closely together. And obviously that's permeated throughout our, our journey over the years. I think yeah, we knew early on that it's a big opportunity in the space and that you'd have to be willing to take on a certain amount of brain damage if you were going to build something great here, and that's a bit of a moat. Chris: We've seen a lot of people dip their toe in alcohol, realize there's all these compliance things or whatnot, and just give up. We've I think over the years have developed a little bit of a specialty or become known as entrepreneurs as the guys that are willing to go through just crazy amounts of complexities and brain damage when other entrepreneurs maybe wouldn't take on those challenges, and love it or hate it, that's become our specialty to some degree. Stephanie: That's great. Tell me a little bit about some of your early marketing efforts. They looked pretty unique, and I was hoping you could touch on that and talk about how you acquired some of your early customers? Chris: Sure. The early days you had very small budgets. When we first launched, we were effectively bootstrapped and very shortly after launching had raised a small amount of money from an angel who was a terrific early believer in the company and maintained support throughout the years. But I mean, how do you make as much noise as possible with very small budgets? And we just had this approach of we're in the alcohol space. I think, our first thing we looked at was retail alcohol does marketing very poorly, or in a very boring way. If you look at how customers are adopting any type of brand or brand category or marketplace, usually there's a little bit of brand identity, or something you're trying to communicate to them. Chris: Retail alcohol's literally just, "Hey, we have Smirnoff, it's on sale. Come to me. Hey, I have SKYY vodka, it's on sale. Come to me." There's almost nothing... even if you look at the brand names and logos of most of the major alcohol retailers throughout the country, they're just like gimmicky whatever. We knew that we wanted to take more of the marketing style that takes place in the on-premise world — bars, restaurants, hospitality, leisure, et cetera — that I think translate some of these alcohol brands' vision to the customer very well, which is not, "Hey, come to our bar restaurant, hotel, whatever, because we have alcohol here." It's come here because it's a good time. And you'll be here with friends, and all these things that alcohol subtly sits in the background. Chris: We wanted to mere that type of approach over to the off premise world where it wasn't, "Hey, come here cause we have alcohol." Or, "Hey, we're alcohol delivery." Or, "Hey, get beer delivered." Or whatever maybe. It was trying to communicate fun and interesting messages, plans for people, different things they could do in their city. Wild and crazy activations that just got them excited, and just falling in love with the brand. And then subtly, by the way we deliver beer, wine, spirits, mixers, snacks, ice cream, all this type of stuff. So our activations really mirrored that philosophy of saying, "How are we going to deliver plans to people, or excitement to people?" Chris: One of our first big stunty activations, we partnered with a terrific company, LA company called MeUndies, which is the world's most comfortable underwear, and we just said, how do get a bunch of attention together, and do something that customers would love? And we came up with MeUndies underwear models, delivering sleepover packs that were pajamas and underwear, and a bottle of tequila, a bottle of wine or whatever it may be. It was male and female underwear pairs. Underwear models going out, and delivering. So anybody who ordered- Stephanie: Were they just in their underwear? Chris: They were just in their underwear, so you have anybody who ordered to have this female and male underwear model would come and show up at their house and deliver their sleepover pack. And we structured a great partnership together, rolled it out and we got just shy of a hundred million press impressions inside of a week, basically for free. Chris: We also did on Frank Sinatra's birthday in December, we partnered with the Sinatra family, Jack Daniels, and I believe it was Universal Music and anybody who ordered Jack Daniels, it would be delivered by a Sinatra impersonator. And they'd give you an LP and sing songs to you and do all this type of stuff. We did a handful of other really stunty activations. We took a page out of Uber's book. We delivered cuddly puppies, and donated proceeds to different animal charities and all sorts of stuff like that. Then we backed those types of campaigns with other things that we could afford at the time, which was we did a lot of door hanger campaigns. We did a lot of early stage for direct mail to 21 plus mailing lists. Chris: We did a lot of Facebook ads, Facebook native ads at the time. In the early days of any marketplace, you can acquire tons of customers on Facebook, relatively cheaply, and then your CAC start going up. So it's always a challenge to figure out as you saturate a channel, or saturate a market, how to change either how you're running the ads, or new ways to acquire customers or not be so dependent on one channel. But in the early days it was bracketed as deliver wild and crazy activations that get people talking about us. And then let's backfill that with a little bit more direct response media that maybe they heard about us from a friend because we did this crazy thing, and then they saw some Facebook, and then they saw us on their door. The combination of those things hitting people multiple times really drove a lot of that early adoption. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really, really fun. I love that story, is such a good idea and a good reminder to be creative in the early days and get the most bang for your buck. So what does your customer acquisition look like today, and how are you measuring that? Chris: It's a little different today running across a lot more channels, but I would say that a core tenent of our marketing has always been our referral program. We think that that's the best way that anybody's going to adopt a new service or product is hearing about it from a friend. And so we always push our referral program. It's always been our highest performing and fastest conversion customer acquisition channel that we do run ads across tons of different paid media channels. Obviously, the social, podcasts, radio, out-of-home, less so out of home right now for obvious reasons, and then we do a lot of partnerships with the big alcohol brands to drive awareness through some of their channels. We work with different influencers and then have started exploring some things like streaming, and whatnot. Chris: I think the most fascinating things that have happened on all these channels during COVID is obviously about 50% of somebody's alcohol purchases. It's usually fairly split between on premise and off premise. Bars, restaurants, stadiums, hotels, et cetera, over here. Grocery stores, alcohol delivery services, Ecommerce whatever over there, and half of those purchased venues effectively got turned off. So you had this influx of 50% of somebody's buying jump over to the other side, the off-premise buying behavior. And then you had people not wanting to go wait in lines and all this type of stuff. And so the search traffic went through the roof, time to first conversion shortened at rates that we had never seen before. We had higher intent, customers coming in, and just looking for alcohol delivery, "Is this even possible? Is it possible in my city?" Chris: We've been fortunate enough to have a great ops team that we've expanded dramatically, our footprint. We've launched dozens and dozens of new markets and cities over the past few months, been acquiring customers in all those new markets and cities. Partnering with terrific brands to help drive awareness and let people know that they can use the service. Then acquiring people at very different numbers than we've seen historically, an example would be when COVID really started to kick off, our Facebook customer acquisition costs dropped to about a 10th of what it's been for roughly six years. Time to first conversion, which share is usually around 14 days, someone downloads the app and they're waiting for that first use case. Chris: "Oh I feel like having that bottle of wine. Oh, I'm watching a show, I'll try ordering six pack of beer." Or whatever it is, dropped down to effectively a day. People were just searching for the service, found it, used it. And then second purchase happened before that 14 day mark as well. So you went from having time to first conversion be 14 to 20 days, and then it's all about getting to that second and third purchase. You had purchase one, purchase two, basically happening inside of that first purchase period of time. The customer acquisition costs on a lot of major channels dropped to a 10th of what they normally have been. Then we saw other people willing to spend a lot more media dollars. And then obviously when you think about marketing as well, so much of it is just how you cut through the noise. Chris: If you go back there's a lot of terrific documentaries on Netflix about history ad agencies and all this stuff, but there wasn't tons of marketing being thrown at people the way it is today, back in the fifties and sixties. And so a creative ad, like the Volkswagen think small, or something like that could just cut through everything and take over a nation. Today, it's very difficult. How do you come up with campaigns that cut through the noise that feel genuine that people respond well to? But when you had entire industries been negatively impacted by this pandemic and pull back, a lot of their marketing spend, a lot of that "marketing noise" had died down. And so if you were a service that was still operating the ability to just make sure the customers knew about you was in a heightened state than it had been in. Chris: So there's been a lot of changes over the past couple of months, both in terms of how we do marketing operations, and work with our customers. But yeah, we've obviously been very blessed by sheer dumb luck in this sense on being in a category that has been positively impacted as opposed to negatively impacted. Stephanie: Yeah. That's amazing. Very cool to hear about the time to first conversion and all that. How would you guide someone to create a marketing campaign that does stand out among the noise? Like even outside of a pandemic, and how to make sure it's authentic, but also unique. How do you guys even think about that when building your campaigns? Chris: Yeah, I mean, it sounds cliche. It's just put yourself in the customer's shoes. Be a customer for a day, go on to social media, take a drive around, look at the billboards, look at the signs. Look at the ads that are being served up to you. What's attractive? What do you like? What stands out? What feels cool? Having a barometer for just what I think really impacts somebody is important. And then translating that into your own campaigns is key. We've done most all of our stuff over the years in house. In terms of ad copy, and ad creative, and CRM, creative and copy, and all that type of stuff. But it's just putting yourself in the customer's shoes, what feels genuine, find brands that you really like what they're doing, and they feel honest and interesting and original, and they create interesting templates and guidelines. Chris: There is a creative agency called Gin Lane, which has since pivoted into creating their own products that built these templates for a whole bunch of companies, one being Hims & Hers, and a handful of other very well known brands today. But yeah, I mean, it's just what feels honest, what stands out, and do things that get people talking. It's fairly simple, but I think our barometer's just always been if you do what gets people talking, and is cool and genuine, then people will talk about it, and they will share with their friends. If you do something boring, or off-putting, who cares? Stephanie: Yeah. You'll be like everyone else. I love that. So with all the changes that have been happening, what updates did you have to make to your website, if any? Is there anything that you completely changed to try and... website or app either one, or like, this is a new user that's coming in, or now we have this new group that we need to focus on retaining who has never been here before. Any strategic updates or changes that you've made to your mobile or desktop presence that have really positively impacted like conversions and revenue and whatnot? Chris: Yeah. I mean, some of the initial stuff was very simple. It was just categories. So obviously coming into the app in those early days, people were looking for anything from wine, but also PPE equipment, and masks, and gloves, and hand sanitizer, and things like that. A lot of our stores and markets carried those things, toilet paper, paper towels, et cetera. Canned soup, frozen pizzas. So we've had that stuff for years, though a lot of people don't necessarily know it, but it was just making sure that that was very prominent in both our content marketing, as well as in the app and the website. So when people showed up they knew that that was available and they could use it. Then operationally, it was obviously it was getting out in front of a lot more people, so rapid expansion of our delivery footprint and neighborhood coverage throughout the country, so that more and more people could use us. Chris: Then obviously all the communication and work that went into little things operationally, like in certain States that require signature capture at the time of delivery, not just ID capture, but signature capture as well. Working with different people to get those signature capture requires lifted. So you could have more of a contactless delivery, it's not the same as delivering a sandwich where it can just be left at your door. You do have to see the person. You do have to visually identify them and scan their ID. But that can still happen in a contactless manner, where they just hold out their ID, you scan with the phone, and nobody's swapping goods or anything like that. So yeah, there's little things around COVID protection, primarily around contactless delivery, and ensuring a signature capture was waived in certain States. Chris: Showing more prominently categories of products that people were looking for, but particularly around stocking up or staying safe at home, or staying safe with PPE gear, putting up protocols to all of our retail partners on how they need to be picking and packing products and operating at retail. In some cases helping them source their own protective gear. Then yeah, on the site and in the communication email... I was recently speaking to somebody else about this, but we just had to basically torch all of our content marketing that was planned, where March was all March madness. We had tons of ad campaigns and things lined up for that going into different sports seasons, sports openers. All of that media and content pretty much could be very tone deaf if you just went as is. Chris: So all of our planned content marketing and even some of our campaigns and video shoots or photography, all those things, were basically just nixed it all and had to start from scratch on the marketing side. But the team there did a fantastic job. Stephanie: Yeah. It seems like there's so many things that were changing and you guys were able to act really quickly to pivot, and showcase the products that were already there and personalize it in a different way. Yeah, that's really awesome. What metrics are you looking at to measure success for your business? Chris: For us, alcohol's a little bit different than food. Food you eat every day, or dog walking was a big category. People that I remember early days, some of these venture guys, I don't think quite understood the category, not speaking about our investors, speaking about other people that we would pitch, and they ask things like, "Well, we saw this dog walking app and the retention is... they get used like nine times a month." Are people going to use your service nine times a month?" And it was like, well, I'd say, "Well, that dog is alive every day of the week, no? So if the dog is alive, it needs to be walked every day. Right? And if people are working then yeah, they need a service to walk the talk every day of the week that they're at work." Stephanie: Why are you comparing us? Chris: Yeah. Or even food you need to have food, and am I going to cook? Am I going to buy something at the store? Am I going to have it delivered? But when it came to alcohol, it's a little bit, I'd say roughly 15 to 20% of your customer base and in alcohol is really the people that drink a little bit more frequently, or several times a month. It's not as exaggerated as like sports betting or gambling where some instances we've seen platforms where 0.3% of the customer base is driving 70% of the revenue. And it's all about maintaining that 0.3%. In alcohol it's finding the people that enjoy the category, maybe have a wine in the evenings, or a couple of times a month or whatever it may be, and nailing that customer use case. Chris: Then we have other customer use cases where people just use for gifting, or people use us as their office for gifting all their employees, or having office happy hours, or having business orders. So it's really segmenting and cohorting all the different types of use cases, and customers that relate to this product. It's obviously a big space over a hundred... these are pre COVID numbers, but alcohol is roughly a little over $200 billion a year in sales, in the US. Roughly 55% off premise, 45% on premise. It's a big space, and it's all about finding obviously the people that use your category. I think as we think about just our marketing may change, or customer acquisition may change, or who the customer is, it's always just identifying those use cases. And some of those use cases have obviously changed right now. Where we're supporting more of that on-premise behavior. Zoom happy hours, people socially drink it with their friends, but from home. It's been interesting. Stephanie: Yeah. I really liked the idea of putting the users into cohorts based on why they're using the product. That's a really good point. The other big topic I wanted to talk about that could be probably a whole entire episode is all around partnerships. I want to hear what it's like partnering with these companies, like the industry that maybe hasn't really been online, the alcohol industry previously, what does that look like behind the scenes? How are you going about partnering with these companies right now? Chris: Yeah. Partnerships is a huge part of our business, both on the marketing side, as well as just how we operate as a company. We're a marketplace for the most part. We partner with existing retail locations where we'll partner with a store in a geographic area and then funnel all the volume and requests effectually to that store or a handful of stores in that area. So partnering with liquor stores and retail stores all throughout the country. And then we partner obviously with the Diageos, and Bacardis, and AB InBevs, and those guys of the world. When we first got started, the first ever brand partnership that we did was with Anheuser-Busch, and they actually reached out to us. It was this is this $200 billion market cap company. And I think they had just started their first digital team, which was less than half a dozen people up in a garage in Palo Alto. They called the beer garage. Chris: A guy by the name of Mike Raspatello reached out to me on LinkedIn and said, "Hey, I'm from Anheuser-Busch. We saw..." I think probably because of the MeUndie's campaign, "We saw what you guys are doing, and we want to have a conversation about how do we work together? We're trying to take on digital for the first time, and we're part of this beer garage." It get morphed into what later became ZX Ventures, which became like a venture team of theirs. And then is this big team now of hundreds of people over at Anheuser-Busch, back then it was mostly, I think Mike and a handful of people up in Palo Alto. He reached out, and he's like, "Yeah, we're talking to Instacart, we're talking to you guys, talking to one or two others." And we did a campaign where we promoted certain products in the category. [inaudible 00:39:47], and Stella Artois, and a handful of their portfolio products, and saw could you increase by featuring different brands? Could you increase their share of category? Chris: For them it was, "Our historical share of beer category is X at retail, in this new online world, how do we make sure that it is more than X?" And every brand has approached it that way. We are X percent of our categories in retail, how do we make sure in online we are more than X? We ran the campaign and did extremely well. Mike was absolutely instrumental in that, and terrific at Anheuser-Busch. He'd probably hate me for saying that, he's a hilarious guy who's in Chicago now and catch up with him. He's one of my favorite people, but yeah, we ran this campaign and they came back to us afterwards and they were like, "Man, you guys just worked so seamlessly with us. It went so smoothly it didn't go as smoothly with some other people. How big is your company? You guys got like four or 500 people?" And I think it was just Dan, Andrew and I at the time. I was like, yeah, totally. Totally we have 500 people. Stephanie: Huge backend helping us here. Chris: Exactly. I was hesitant to let them know, but I was like, "No, it's three of us right now, and a handful of couriers." And they were like, "What?" It was interesting in those early days, it was a little bit of fake it till you make it, in making us feel much bigger than we were in year one. That helped us get some of those very early partnerships. And then obviously as we started doing more and more creative stuff a lot of brands came knocking at our door. In many ways, outside of just promoting people in categories, or integrating them into our content, we did some big activations and made a lot of noise with different people. Like you saw with the Jack Daniels, and Sinatra impersonators and stuff like that. Chris: In many ways I think people started to treat us a little bit like a creative agency, they'd come to us to say, of course, we're going to do paid placement, but what else do crazy people come up with? We'd come up with all sorts of cool stuff for these brands. And in many ways we became like an outsourced agency that would help them with that stuff, or even help them with some of their Facebook spending. "Hey, we're currently with agency X running Facebook ads, they're telling me a customer acquisition cost of 137 bucks is fantastic. Is it fantastic?" We don't know, it sounds great to me. They have all these slides and whatnot, and we're like, "No, that's atrocious. That was absolutely terrible." Stephanie: Yeah. Oh man. Chris: "Let us help you figure this stuff out." So in the early days it was again, just being extremely helpful, but then sometimes that's not always scalable being very handholding and helpful with each brand. You can't translate that at our team size to every brand. And so it was coming up with a lot of templates and guidelines. Finding out what's effective. How do we translate what's effective to each brand? Today, our team on that front does a terrific job of still being able to come up with really creative and interesting campaigns with companies and execute on them. I think the biggest change that I've seen is in those early days, a lot of these... they're like institutions. These brands, or portfolio holdings are just huge, had very rigid brand guidelines. Chris: I remember working with a big very famous champagne brand, and effectively the model was they have a brand authenticity team that is just protecting everything related to that brand. And they spend months specking out what a campaign looks like for billboards, TV, all this stuff. And we were effectively just another channel to put that campaign into. And that just didn't work. We speak to our customers in a very unique way, and you take this billboard and then just put it in Saucey, and it looked very foreign. People recognize it as a foreign object, and don't respond well. And so the brands that earlier were able to say, "You guys know your customers better than we do. So we're going to give you relatively all the creative freedom to speak to them, with some approvals." Those were the people that performed the best, and those are the people that have continued to perform the best. Chris: I think the biggest change that I've seen is you've had a lot of these huge alcohol companies go from having zero person digital teams to having fully built out futures in digital teams. Then the biggest next step was those teams doing a fantastic job of working with senior leadership at those organizations to get them out of the more rigid guidelines around brand identity and being much more flexible in how they both think about campaigns, creative talking to people, et cetera. And that's been a huge shift for them. Stephanie: Yeah. I love that story, especially about Anheuser-Busch. And it's just a good story that highlights the importance of finding that first partner and really giving them, like you said, like a frictionless experience where they walk away like, "Wow, that was easy. I didn't really have to do anything. And the team just took care of it for me." Even if it semi kills you to begin with, like that doesn't have to be a for everything, but maybe first big fish, [inaudible] like, "Here's our partner." Is what can bring all the other partnerships your way. So yeah, such a great reminder. All right. I want to move into a lightning round, I know we don't have that much time left. So lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I will ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Chris, are you ready? Chris: I'm ready. Stephanie: All right. What is your drink of choice? Chris: I like Michter's Rye neat. Stephanie: On the rocks, or how do you make it? Chris: Just neat, Michter's Rye neat, is my favorite. Second favorite probably be Tito's Martini. After that probably jumping into beer or wine. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Chris: I'm big into murder mysteries and prison documentaries and things like that. So probably something about international drug trade, or world's toughest prisons in Russia or something along those lines. Drives my wife absolutely crazy. Stephanie: Oh, man, that sounds very interesting. Also, our producer, Hilary said, "Neat means no ice, Steph." Got it. Thank you, Hilary. I apparently do not know alcohol, so that's on me. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guests be? Chris: I've thought about this a little bit. I think that I personally, when I was first starting working on businesses or trying to build a career, you see the end result of all these people, and you miss a lot of the details that got them to where they're at, or got them to how they think about the world and where they're at. Guy Raz, obviously, with How I Built This does a fantastic job of telling the idea of a company from start to finish. I'd love to even know the backstory before that of a lot of entrepreneurs. How did you get to the place where you wanted to jump off a cliff and start the company? You can have a little bit on the company, but really how did you shape what ultimately became this person that's willing to take risks, and do all these different things? Chris: I think to be totally honest, my first interview would probably be my co-founder, Dan Leeb. He has an unbelievably interesting story. I've that all sorts of twists and turns in life. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. I would start a hundred businesses with that guy, and it would be an interesting one to listen to. Stephanie: Cool. That sounds good. I would definitely listen. And I love the story or founders stay together and stay friends because you always hear that not always being the case. So it's really fun hearing that. Yeah, you guys continue to be good friends to this day. That's awesome. The last one, what is your favorite piece of tech, or an app that's making you the most efficient right now with work? Chris: Just my phone. My phone, and these ear buds it's 90% of what's happening. Stephanie: All right. Chris: But yeah, I'm on the phone, most of the day, working with teams, video conferencing so these AirPods, or AirPod Pros with the noise canceling, that's a game changer. I got three little kids running around working from home, so we got a noisy household. So you got to be mobile and be able to communicate with everybody. Stephanie: Yup. I can relate with you there. And I almost forgot the hardest question that I need to ask you. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year. How could I forget that one? Chris: I mean, outside of what's already happening with COVID, I think the biggest changes will be regulatory. We'll see what happens, but things like telehealth, or telemedicine, or even grocery, or even alcohol where you're seeing a lot of the legislation and regulations that have been sitting on the books for decades or 70, 80 years in many ways are all being revisited right now to adjust to this new normal. People have been trying to push for those legislative changes for years and years and years. And it's just been under the stack of papers, because, "Why is this so important?" Sort of, "Who cares, we'll get to it eventually." But you're seeing a lot of that accelerate right now. And I think a few big changes depending on what industry you're in, could really unlock an entirely new world for certain Ecommerce categories. Chris: So I think legislation driven by change of life, change of pandemic, I think will be very interesting to watch. And I think you'll see not only new categories come online, but the dramatic acceleration of some of the existing categories. Stephanie: Well, I love that. That's a great answer. I'm glad I remembered to ask that question. Well, Chris, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people learn more about you, and Saucey? Chris: You learn anything you need about Saucey at saucey.com. If you want to learn about me, I guess you'd listened to this podcast, go from there. I don't have a huge online presence, stay relatively private. But I think that, you want to learn more about Saucey, go saucey.com. Stephanie: Cool. Well, I like being exclusive source, so for all things, Chris Vaughn, you're welcome everyone. All right. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been great. Chris: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.  

Chris Carr, President and CEO of Farotech, started his agency 19 years ago as a web development company, moved into SEO, and then transitioned to what Chris calls conversion science. Today, Chris says, his agency builds integrated systems that generate leads, nurture leads into clients, and then convert clients into brand ambassadors who refer new clients to the brand. Chris says that most companies spend a majority of their time and effort generating leads – and then alternating between generating leads and reacting to the results. He emphasizes that businesses can't depend on a single marketing platform. A properly designed system, like a flywheel, maintains consistent momentum, gains power, and generates “really great results.” Farotech “deep dives” for 2 months into a client's marketing, discusses a client's unique selling proposition, compares it to customer search volumes, and applies a software that identifies first top ten relevant Google search results in a client's market niche. Evaluating the “winners'” readability, content, content length, infographics, and backlinks yields information about what the client company needs to do to beat the competition. After Farotech understands a client's messaging requirements for both global audiences and the client's segmented audiences, the agency writes great, value-imbued, data-based content. Pushing data and information makes content sharable, Chris says.  The agency provides a strategic 3- to 5-year roadmap that highlights gaps and opportunities and, over time, recommends messaging tweaks to keep the client “at the top.” One technique Farotech uses to great advantage is placing Pixel on a client's page to track visitor conversions, optimize ads, build targeted audiences for future ads, and remarket to people who have made a purchase. Pixel is very useful for capturing “lookalike audiences,” people who are unaware of a company and its offerings, but who are demographically similar to a company's “good customers” or similarly challenged. Finding the “lookalike” audiences for a client's emails and for its website users greatly expands opportunities. Chris says that blog messages should be targeted, polished, and personalized and delivered at least once a week in order for the blogger to be recognized as a thought leader.  Chris says he likes to “fail as fast as I can, and then adjust and then keep going and keep going.” He believes it is very important to invest in training staff, and lauds Greg Crabtree's book, Simple Numbers, as an effective guide for “when to cut and when to hire. Chris can be reach on his company's website at: farotech.com consultation. Those who would like a consultation should email: info@farotech.com. He believes most companies will find this initial consultation invaluable. “He says, We work really hard to tell you where you're weak, where you should go from here. Even if you don't use us, these are the three things you should be doing, things like that.”  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk. I am joined today by Chris Carr, President and CEO at Farotech based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Chris. CHRIS: Hey, thanks for having me. ROB: It's fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Farotech and what superpower you all bring to the world of marketing agencies? CHRIS: Thanks for asking. I stared Farotech about 19 years ago. We started out as a web development company, then slowly moved into SEO, and then from SEO into what we call a conversion science. What I mean by that is when clients come to me, they usually say, “If I could only figure out my SEO, then all my problems would be solved” or “If I was only good at social media” or something like that. What I often say is, “Hey, if you are basically wrapping all of your marketing around one particular solution, then you're building your house on sand.” What we try to make the argument of is we build systems, not solutions. If marketing is done right and it's turned into a system, essentially you have a system that generates leads, nurtures leads into clients, and then converts clients into brand ambassadors. And those brand ambassadors are going to be those loyal fans who create referrals for your brand. So, the superpower that I would have is I'm going to help strategize that in the beginning of the process and help our clients get to that spot. ROB: Where are they typically starting from? Are they just spending on anything? Are they trying to do some of these tactics that someone told them they should do, and they're coming to you because they're trying to be amazing at SEO even though they can barely spell it? Where are they coming from? CHRIS: I think most people spend the large majority of their time in lead generation. They're going to come to me saying that they might write a couple blogs. What I find is that most companies are what I call reactive marketers as opposed to proactive marketers. The reactive marketer is the idea that we live this life of quiet desperation. We have a tradeshow, so we sprint for the tradeshow, or it's Christmas season and we need to get our products ready for that. I worked a lot in the healthcare space; certain sports change how they market. You sprint and then relax and then sprint and then relax. A system doesn't do that. A system is kind of like Jim Collin's Flywheel. It just keeps spinning and spinning and spinning. Momentum turns into power, and power turns into really great results. ROB: I think a lot of people aspire to this sort of thing, but they very quickly realize that they don't really know what they should be talking about that's interesting to their audience. How do you think about that? What's an example of an industry where you've seen it could be hard for them to think about what to say, but in fact there is a system that can be put in play that makes a lot of sense once you get your head around it? CHRIS: That's a really great question. Unfortunately, I think Google tells you what to say in a lot of ways. You know your general topic; you have great products and services. It's shocking that when you say it the way you say it and then I look in Google and I'm saying, “Hey, what you think the audience wants and what they're actually searching for – you can try really hard to be great at your brand, but you're trying to convert the masses on something they don't even know about.” What happens is I'll sit down with a client and we'll talk about their unique selling proposition, and then I'll compare it to search volumes and say, “Hey, we create your messaging. These are the tweaks you're probably going to have to make. Do you agree or disagree?” If it's your brand, I want it to be sacred and I want to protect that, but if it's about volume and generating leads, then we might have to tweak or pivot or move. ROB: That certainly makes sense. Are you looking at that through the lens – I think level zero of this is you type what you think you're talking about into Google and see what else gets suggested, but then there's this deeper level of maybe search console and some other keywords. How do you dive down that rabbit hole and start finding out what they're actually talking about in the eyes of their customers? CHRIS: We develop a gap assessment right at the onset of working with a client. That's a 2-month deep dive into a client, their marketing. It's a 3- to 5-year roadmap to understand where the gaps are, where the opportunities are. But most importantly, I've got to understand your messaging and what your vision is and how you create effective messaging for not just the global audience, but to segmented audiences too. Within that process, what we try to do is once I've figured out your messaging, we have certain pieces of software that before we even publish, it's going to tell you who's in the top 10 spots on the first page of Google, who those top 10 companies are, and what kind of content you've got to create to beat them. I might look at readability, I might look at the length of content, I might look at the fact that they have infographics or backlinks. As I start to create that message, I'm going to say, we're going to base this piece of content on data, not on hunches. That's where we start. We start with the data. ROB: Interesting. It seems evident that at some point you're going to want to atomize this content, push it out into social, push it out into paid social, push it out even into – maybe what resonates even turns into some press. How do you get down to that next layer? I think there's probably some ways where the search data is the truth and the tools you have are the truth, and there's some places where on each platform, the audience is looking for something slightly different. CHRIS: At the genuine level, we write content for our clients. We'll interview our clients through a number of different ways so our writers write really great content. It starts with writing great content. That's table stakes. You've got to have great content. It has to have value. I always say that it should push data and information because that's what makes content sharable. But then it has to go into the system. I'll just get very tactical about it. We write content for blogs. Blogs get syndicated through social media channels. Then we'll use paid channels to reach certain target audiences. We'll use multiple different platforms but say it's Facebook. I'll Pixel on my client's computer. We'll find out, what are the visitors doing when they come to your website? Then I'll be able to get your messaging to that target and then a lookalike audience as well. So now I'm reaching people that don't even know you exist, but they are similar demographics or have certain challenges and things like that. ROB: Very interesting. That's been surprisingly effective for quite a while, but it kind of makes sense. Figure out how to drive the audience and then make sure you Pixel for retargeting and the lookalike audience. That combined with, maybe if you're capturing some emails, a lookalike on the email audience, those are sometimes those core four audiences: your email, the lookalike email, the web, and the lookalike web. CHRIS: Yeah. That's it in a nutshell. I forgot to mention that we do – not email blasts, but we do very targeted emails. I think the key you also want to include into that mix is segmentation. If you send one message to your entire audience, unless you have a very niche product – for example, we have a buyer persona that's a general business; then we have SaaS companies, then we have healthcare companies, and then we have manufacturing. There's very specific information that I share to healthcare companies that I don't want my manufacturing potential clients to hear. It just doesn't make sense. And I don't want to water down a message that can be used for everybody. I'd rather send a very segmented, polished, personalized message to a smaller audience than carpet bomb your entire database with a generalized message that doesn't bring value. ROB: Sure. How do you think about frequency amongst those different segments? Do you just hit each one when you have something to say? How do you make sure you're not neglecting something too long? CHRIS: We try to do at least a minimum of one blog a week. Everyone talks about Google's best practices, and I think we make them up as we go along. But we found is what we call it link velocity. If you can keep up that link velocity from an aspect of at least one blog a week, usually what happens is you establish yourself as a thought leader and Google starts to recognize that. What I don't believe is that you should just be a mill. Don't just publish content to publish content. What we do is sit down with a client and we develop an editorial calendar. In an editorial calendar, you're going to know what content goes out in the next 30, 60, or 90 days. We leave some room for things to be nimble because things change, the news changes. Pandemics happen.  ROB: Yes, they do. CHRIS: But for the most part, you want to be in a scenario where frequency of about once a week is pretty good. Especially if you're sending out email communication as well, you don't want to be blasting people every day. It's kind of funny; I have a cellphone, and I also ride a bike. It's just something you do when you're old to stay in shape. I bought my iPhone case from a company called Rokform. Probably shouldn't have said their name. Anyhow, the case is really awesome. Connects to my bike. Really, really awesome. But the fact that they feel like they need to email me every single day is beyond annoying. It went from me being a loyal fan to me being like, dude, I've got to get around to unsubscribing, but I shouldn't have to unsubscribe because you should know your audience better. Like, how many phone cases are you going to buy in the next 5 years of your life? Two? One? Just a pet peeve, but it relates to the frequency of communication. ROB: Yeah, our own experiences certainly inform those conversations around frequency. I'm sure a lot of people can relate. You buy a pair of shoes and then a week later they're like, “Do you want some more shoes?” It's like, I am not that customer segment. I am not the weekly shoe buying guy. I buy a pair of shoes about every 6 months, and if you want to retarget me in 6 months and ask me for some shoes, I'll probably buy some. CHRIS: Yeah, you should be talking to my wife. [laughs] That's my wife's rhythm, about one pair a week. But for me – yeah. ROB: Different customer segments. There it is. CHRIS: Big time. ROB: Chris, you mentioned that you started off not really even intending to start an agency, starting off in web development. What made you realize that this was actually going to be a business that was viable, that was going to stick around for a little bit? CHRIS: Started the business about 6 months before 9/11. I was working at a private company called Vanguard. They're an investment company. I was trying to get into IT there. Thought I wanted to be in IT; what I really wanted is marketing. I got that job, and then 3 days later, 9/11 happened and they said, “Hey, we're going to have to put you back at your old job.” I was a phone jockey. I was a registered rep, and I was talking to people on the phone at a call center like 8 hours a day. It was at one of those spots where I'm sitting in the parking lot like, “I just don't want to go in there.” Anyhow, 6 months later, 9/11 happens and I have no wife, I have no kids. It takes me a whopping $1500 a month to pay my life and my bills. I was like, “You know what? Screw it. I'm just going to go out and do this thing.” Started the business. Got immediately gobbled up as a consultant for a couple years, working in a marketing company that specialized in pharma, and then 2 years later went on and started the agency. How do you know it happens? You don't. It's funny; my business partner was texting me this morning and talking about payroll and he's like, “I think I have kidney stones.” [laughs] You never wake up and feel like, “Wow, this whole agency this is just a dream. There's never a bad day.” We started a dream, wanted to do this thing, created a product, got a client. That client led to two clients. Two clients led to more employees. More employees led to more clients. You just wake up one day, 19 years later, 150+ clients, 50 employees, and you're just – I joke around that it took 19 years to be an overnight success. ROB: [laughs] It becomes a lot of mouths to feed. I think one of those temptations for many folks in the agency world is to maybe look a little bit jealously at their SaaS clients. Of course, the grass always looks greener on the other side. How have you looked at that? “Man, it would be nice to have a product with 90% gross margins and the money keeps coming in.” CHRIS: Yep. Well, be careful what you wish for, because I have SaaS clients, and they say, “Getting them to buy the software is the easy part. We make all the money in the service.” I'm like, dude, I'm a service company that wants to build a product. You're a product company and you want to start a service. [laughs] Dude, you don't want to talk to people. It happens. One of the things that's very interesting in the SaaS space is if you don't have VC funding or you don't have a pretty good cushion, marketing is scary. What I mean by that is – I use the analogy of Photoshop. Photoshop would sell for anywhere between $300 and $500 back in the day before SaaS was actually SaaS. Do you remember Photoshop before it was SaaS? ROB: Oh yeah. I remember people asking who was going to buy Photoshop on a monthly payment when you can just buy the shrink-wrap or the download. CHRIS: Yeah. Honestly, I think most of it was just downloaded illegally anyway. It was terrible. [laughs] It was the early 2000s. Napster was there, and software was not free. But yeah, nothing like going on a podcast and admitting illegal activity, right? ROB: “I have a friend.” CHRIS: I have a friend, right? [laughs] It was a decade ago. But let's say you go out and buy the software and it costs $500 bucks. Now you're like, “We're going to lower that barrier of entry and make it $19.99. No one's going to cancel on us because we got them for $19.99.” I'm like, that's like $480 in cash flow that you don't have right now. It's going to take you 30 months for you to reclaim that other $500 bucks. It's awesome in the aspect of you've eliminated your barrier of entry, you stay competitive and stuff like that, but cash flow is king. I have SaaS clients, and the number one thing I'm looking for is, are you sustainable? Because if you don't have that core number of clients, man, it gets scary pretty quick. ROB: Right. You being in Philadelphia, I know there are some investors there, but it's not the Bay Area and it's not even New York, I don't imagine. That services dimension of it can be a function of SaaS survival in a non-VC-heavy market. CHRIS: Yeah. It's a critical call to make. How do you want to live? Sometimes you've got to do the service until you can just be product only. And I respect that.  I respect anybody who's going to say, “I do what it takes, and when the landscape changes, then I'll pivot.” I can respect that. ROB: Oh yeah, I've certainly been down that path. It's hard from a pride perspective, and I'm sure we all get told what we're supposed to be when our company grows up and how it looks and what you're not supposed to do. Sometimes practicality and eating that pride – and also just realizing who it is that you want to be instead of who it is that other people want you to be is such a key step. CHRIS: And then you're also worrying about – I think there's a phrase that says for every level, there's another devil. What happens here is that you switch out of that service-based model, you're basically just a SaaS company from the regular sense of the word, but then your whole day is lead generation, lead nurturing, and then most importantly – which is something you didn't have to worry about before – you're always worrying about retention. It's one of those things where when a pandemic happens, you might be the first thing that goes. And that's a scary predicament too. I remember specifically, our company hadn't taken a hit. We thought we were going to take a hit. My business partner – he's the COO, but he also does the CFO type stuff – came to me with this long list of everybody that we buy from, and he's like, “This is the list of the people that can go. They're what I would call ‘nice-to-haves.'” That's a scary spot to be in if you're SaaS. One of the things from a SaaS standpoint is the same thing I say to people that are in employment. Make yourself unfirable. If you are a SaaS product that lives on the periphery of “nice-to-have,” you're nice to have, but you can also be very forgettable.  ROB: That's true on SaaS. I think there's an extent to which that's also true in services, though. You can have a contract, but when March 15th, 2020 hits, if a client comes to you and says, “Hey, we're going to be done for a while,” what most people are going to do and what's probably prudent is to say, “Okay, I understand. Let us know how we can help you.” You're not going to fight and be like, “You've got 9 months left and another $90K on this contract, so you've got to pay up, bud.” CHRIS: That's where, for us, we always have a roadmap. The roadmap is even clients who say, “Hey, we're not seeing the results,” I'm like, “Great. We charted this roadmap together. Where did we go wrong? Where do you disagree? Because you agreed to the same roadmap too. We might not be where we're at right now but look at where we're going. If you don't believe in where we're at now, do you believe in what's a mile down the road?” If they say yes, then you say, “Let's journey on this together. I'm on this journey with you.” I want to be in a scenario here where I can be very vulnerable with you and just say, “Where are you suffering? Which part of this process isn't working, and what can we put a little bit more energy into?” as opposed to cutting the cord. I think one of the things we try very hard to do is to not be a vendor. We try to be a partner. I hate people that overuse that, but that's exactly how it works for us. We have clients that are like, “We've got to do another advertising campaign, and I forget what we said about this, this, and this. Farotech, what do we say about that?” I'll be like, “Dude, it's your company. You don't know what you said about that?” I mean, it's an honor and a privilege, but you become so ingrained in who they are that they forget what's been said about them, what they even say about themselves. ROB: Makes sense. Chris, you've given us some nuggets already, but if you rewind and think about the 19 years of the company, what are some lessons you've learned along the way that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting afresh in 2020? CHRIS: I got this questionnaire from you before we started talking and I knew this was coming, and it's so funny – I told my assistant, it matters what day it is. Literally, I consider myself a lifetime learner, but I also say that those last 19 years, I've Forrest Gump'd my way to this spot right now. Meaning I like to fail as fast as I can. Everything I'm saying here sounds cliché, but I like to fail forward, I like to fail as fast as I can, and then adjust and then keep going and keep going. I think the number one lesson that I've learned is if you just keep on swimming, if you just keep on pushing through the hard times, usually what happens here is the sheer diligence is enough. Especially in the service-based industry. In the product-based industry, it can be a little bit tougher because of competition. ROB: Sure. Those landscapes can change and there's things that can happen. It doesn't matter how much you keep swimming; you're not going to rebuild your Groupon competitor today and have it thrive like crazy. CHRIS: I don't think Tom from Myspace is going to make this dramatic resurgence against Facebook. I think at this point Mark's got him. But for the most part, I've seen two economic downfalls. Now I've survived through a pandemic. We signed our first million-dollar client; a year later, we decided to part from that client. I had all the staff from that client that I refused to let go of, and I tried to be a solider and say “I'm going to sell my way out of this,” which I failed miserably. They ended up hating me on their way out anyway, even though I'm putting their salaries on my credit card. It's terrible to say – took me almost 7 years to dig out of that hole of salaries. However, I would do it again because of the things I've learned. Nothing would have forced my hand like reaching the bottom of the barrel. That's just the way it is. ROB: Right. It's not that you would do it that way again; it's that doing it that way taught you more about the next time. CHRIS: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah, I wouldn't say I'd do it again. I'd say I wouldn't change it. In other words, unfortunately I feel like God wanted me to take this road so that I could – I don't think I would've learned if this didn't happen to me. ROB: Yeah. How do you now think about that alignment between the team that's working on a client, the revenue and team – you never want to think about when to cut the line, but there's a very tight alignment between revenue and staff in a services business. CHRIS: Yeah, we had to hire a consultant. Right now we use two different companies. One is called CEO Think Tank, where we run all of our numbers through them. The other one is called Simple Numbers. Simple Numbers is this really advanced accounting and virtual CFO service. They look at our numbers. We live and die by data of utilization rates, of client growth, of sales growth. There's a balance between knowing who to have on your team and when to have them on your team and stuff like that. We have an exceptionally high retention of employees, which has been wonderful, and that – I don't know how to describe it. Training is probably the most expensive part of an agency because we do what we believe is some radical things, and you can't just pull a geek off the street and say, “Hey, guess what? You have an account now.” So, investing in people, investing in training has made a big dividend for us. When we look at the numbers, we're really hard and we really push back when the numbers say your staff is bloated. We get that a lot. We have more staff than work. We get that a lot, but our pushback is that the more trained our staff is, the better job they do. The better job they do, the more clients stick around. And when you have a retention rate of clients in the 90s, you don't have to sell as much because your clients stuck around. If you bleed clients, you might think you're saving money because you have fewer employees, but you're spending way more in sales and marketing to try to get new clients that just fell off the bus. My analogy is falling through, but you get my point? ROB: Yeah. Simple Numbers – is that Greg Crabtree and the labor-efficiency ratio and all that jazz? CHRIS: Oh yeah, you're from that area. I think they're from down that way, aren't they? ROB: I think he's over in Alabama. I could be wrong. CHRIS: Yeah, he's a total rock star. Read the book. The book, to me – it's called Simple Numbers, but it could've been called “Simple Greek.” I require a business partner who can read that stuff. I pay someone to do my taxes. I pay someone to read my email. [laughs] All I do is talk marketing. They show me the numbers and they show me the stuff, and then we make decisions from there. But for the most part, if you trust the data, it all comes out well in the end. ROB: That makes sense. People should definitely dig in, read it. It's a good guide. When to cut, when to hire. All helpful in there. Chris, when people want to find you and Farotech, where should they go to find you? CHRIS: They should go to farotech.com. You can email us if you want to get a consultation. It's info@farotech.com. One thing I will say is that if you reach out and we do a consultation, this is not a glorified sales pitch. You're going to learn more about your business in an hour than – we try really hard to bring a lot of value to the client as opposed to just using that as an opportunity to market and pitch our services. We work really hard to tell you where you're weak, where you should go from here. Even if you don't use us, these are the three things you should be doing, things like that.  ROB: Fantastic. We'll put that in the show notes. I hope people will reach out. It has been a pleasure, Chris, getting to know you and Farotech. Thank you. CHRIS: Thanks again. ROB: All right. Be well. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Summary: In today’s episode, we talk with Chris Brewer about the challenges his agency has faced since March of 2020. Chris breaks down the steps he and his team took to gain stable financial footing early on, the way that their team culture and mindset has impacted their client relationships throughout the pandemic, and the value that comes from creating loyalty with your team and clients in hard times.   Top 3  Curtain Pulls in this episode:  Don’t do business with jerks! Bring clients (and team members) on board that you know are aligned with your philosophies- this is for the benefit of your team as well as the quality of work that you’re putting out.  Transparency with your team will only help to build up confidence in your decision making- this builds a team culture that will support you even in the worst crisis.  Embracing a hybrid model of working from home/ from the office/ remotely will empower your team- you may even see productivity increase!   For more tips, discussion, and behind the scenes: Follow us on Instagram @AgencyPodcast Join our closed Facebook community for agency leaders About Our Guest:  Chris Brewer is the co-founder of OMG Commerce. He is a 10 year Agency veteran out of St Louis with experience building 7-figure businesses. OMG Commerce has the honor of being a Premier Google Partner- something that only 3% of Google Partner businesses attain. OMG delivers online/offline marketing expertise, advice, and education to ecommerce businesses and brands worldwide. Chris on LinkedIn OMG Commerce Website twitter.com/momarketer   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [4:09] Ken introduces Chris Brewer, founder of OMG Commerce. “His company has risen to a level that less than 3% of all Google Partner Agencies worldwide attain- the rank of premier partner… this company delivers online/offline marketing expertise, advise, and education to ecommerce businesses and brands worldwide. Chris has a history of building 7-figure businesses. In addition to the incredible growth and success with OMG, his entrepreneurial accomplishments have included an outdoor advertising firm and a publishing company.”  [4:58] Bob asks Chris about how Covid-19 has impacted their business. “Has it really brought a whole new level of business for you?”[5:15] Chris responds that the first couple weeks of March were scary and unstable, and leads just stopped coming in. They applied for PPE loans out of a sense of urgency and then wound up having to hire more individuals for the team. He talks about having survivors guilt once the pandemic is over, as he’s aware that it’s been devastating for many.  [6:17] Bob asks who Chris’ typical client is.  [6:23] Chris responds: For Amazon clients, having at least a million in annual revenue is necessary- for the Google clients they must be spending at least 5K a month over the last 90 days.  He talks about limiting the number of new clients they take on, so as to keep their employees afloat and not overworked and also to keep their quality of work high.  They don’t do business with people who are jerks- people who are not in it for the long-term and those who treat people in a disrespectful way.  [7:42] Bob asks how they filter those people. [7:48] Chris responds that he collaborates with his business partner and they both call attention to potential red flags for themselves.  They want to work with brands who have past success, who are willing to take chances and come into the relationship with an education about how things work. Taking on a smaller/newer company means more guidance, more room for scope creep and more room for error- often they send smaller leads or leads that wouldn’t usually be a great fit to other Google Agencies, purely because it would be better in the long run for the client.  If you know a client has a lot of learning curves and that your costs would be unfair to them, don’t take them on as clients! Refer them to other agencies with costs that suit their needs more appropriately.  [12:30] Ken asks what Coroniavirus looked like for OMG commerce- layoffs, shakeups?  [12:54] Chris talks about his 10 years of experience in the business, the punches he’s already taken and recovered from over the years and how the fear that Covid brought was nothing like any of those past experiences.  He shares that his wife actually asked him what his plan was before anyone else- and he eventually called attention to the virus with his business partners so they could begin planning for the possibility of a global pandemic.  They had a nice sum in money market accounts that they quickly pulled out- several months worth of operations gave some comfort.  Their team has always had a 100% clear view of their finances, every month employees get a review of their numbers. So they shared all this with their employees, there was 100% transparency.  [19:30] Chris shares that they wound up being profitable at the end of Q2, which was surprising. Their bonus structure program was based on quarterly numbers, and they made the decision to go ahead and hand out those bonuses at the height of the pandemic. They made that decision and it blew their employees away- which has in turn strengthened their culture and work ethic and grown the business in more ways than just financially.  [23:00] Ken talks about how great that decision was- stressing that it creates a loyalty that is incredibly valuable on the team side.  Metacake takes a Dave Ramsey approach to savings- they try to have a years worth of operations costs saved up for emergencies.  [23:36] Chris: “It took a pandemic for us to realize that if we’re doing the right things for our clients (and employees) as an agency, it would have to be very dark times in the US for us to lose enough clients to put us out of business.”  [25:09] Bob asks about how Chris communicated with his team during this early Covid phase.  [25:23] Chris responds: There were a lot of discussions about what people were and weren’t comfortable with. They kept a skeleton crew of people at the office for as long as they could, but as soon as someone asked if they could work from home, they let everyone know that it was an option. Allowing people the option to feel safe, heard, and cared for resulted in more productivity and actual growth for the company overall.  [30:00] Ken asks Chris about the necessity of working in an office at all anymore- will they ever go to a full remote model?  Chris says that a hybrid model is what they’ll lean into- they’ve realized that their workers can be trusted to work and get things done, even from home.  [33:00] Ken shares that a hybrid working model is better suited for the reality of life and how humans function- the freedom of blending home life with work life helps to create a healthy balance that results in more productivity and happier individuals.  [35:00] The Guys chat with Chris about how well this hybrid model has worked for them so far. They speak on the empathy that has been extended in many directions, as we are seeing one another through a more human lens. Not necessarily informality, but a more realistic look at how we all function in our lives. Just being on video calls has made this more applicable than ever.  [40:00] Ken asks Chris about OMG differentiates themselves in an oversaturated market.  [41:45] Chris says that by shining a light on your team and your culture, you can create a name for yourself, a reputation that spreads in a positive way about what you’re doing.  OMG stands for Online Marketing Giant- at the time they were considered a local agency but wanted to aim higher and bigger, because his partner saw where ecommerce was going.  They position themselves to be “experts” in their industry, and do an incredible job of getting themselves in the spotlight on popular platforms in that way- Shopify for example. They create content that educates and positions them in that knowledge leadership position as well.  [46:32] Chris: “I would say to other agencies- if you’ve got a great blog or you have a certain skillset that you can turn into a guide, just get it done, find someone to get that done for you…” Start with someone who’s willing to publish your content- SEO it and put legs underneath it! [47:30] Bob asks Chris about his plans for the future.  [47:37] Chris: They’re looking into ways to go full service on Amazon, as they’ve had a couple clients who left out of necessity.  Message for smaller agencies: “Be patient. We’ve been at this 10 years and we’re just now getting the levels that we kind of dreamed of seven years ago… if you try to push the envelope or try to skip steps to building a culture, building your processes… you’re never gonna make it.”  [53:07] Bob thanks Chris for his transparency and honesty, saying that it’s encouraging as an agency owner to hear others that are further along talk about their experience and the hard lessons they’ve learned.  [55:00] Ken asks Chris where we can find him online- social plugs! Fun fact: If you live chat OMG Commerce, Chris is likely the one that will respond to you! You can also find him on Twitter, Instagram, etc. Check him out!

Published Sep 29, 2017 Chris: Hey world, Chris Hogan coming to you live from MeMedia Studio here in Burleigh Heads for 'Get Fact Up'. The new and improved version, delivering more content to you regularly, is in our vodcasting studio or podcasting studio. You can hire it out at Burleigh Heads as well, just enquire on our website. So here we are. Hanging on, Andrew? Andrew: Yeah, I'm good. Just had a double strength decaf. Chris: That did nothing. Andrew: Sorry, I was sitting on that one for a bit, sorry. Keep going. Chris: As you can see, we're keeping it light and humorous. So today we want to talk about the transition that's happening from broadcast, or traditional media, to online media. Basically, the millennials are moving away from traditional media and moving to social channels and whatnot for entertainment. Andrew: Well, the interesting thing about that is how we're delivering this today which, in my opinion, is shifting more towards live and daily content, and those sorts of things are happening on social. So what better way to deliver 'Get Fact Up' than through live video? Chris: Cool. Andrew: And that's what we're trying. Chris: So what are the channels that are actually performing best when it comes to live video? Andrew: Well, it's Facebook, YouTube, and then you've got other things like Instagram, which is obviously Facebook as well. It's like Facebook in your pocket, I guess you could say. And then, what else have you got? You've got Periscope. No one really uses Periscope. Chris: And also LinkedIn is coming out with their new update to allow you to shoot live video through their mobile app, and upload videos through the desktop. Andrew: Yep, LinkedIn always liked to party. But they're doing their thing. And then you've got things like Snapchat and all that, but from what I've heard, Snapchat's not gonna be around much longer. So let's not worry about that too much. Chris: Yeah, but those stories that are up there for 24 hours, they just aren't that interesting to anybody anymore. Especially the brands, I think, because ... Andrew: Yeah, it was a toy. People are getting past it. I don't know anyone that's really using Snapchat in that way anymore. And now there's also Instagram which has the same feature. Facebook has the same feature. It's really devalued that whole disposable story thing quite a bit. Chris: So with Facebook owning Instagram, we've seen a lot of changes in Instagram as well. They've actually brought in a lot of the features, their filters and all those overlays that Snapchat ... someone invented. And Facebook have kind of integrated those into both Facebook and Instagram. And Instagram have also updated their app, or their algorithm, to decrease the organic reach that people are getting to grow their channels. What problems does that present to newcomers to Instagram, do you think? Andrew: Well, I think when it went at a really saturated ... I don't want to call it a marketplace, because Instagram's not a marketplace. Chris: Channel. Andrew: It's a really saturated channel now. When I first started using Instagram and things like that, you could really grow a channel. You could easily get to two thousand followers, is that what we call them on Instagram? Yeah? Two thousand followers, just through organic means. Just through interacting with other people, and stuff like that. You just can't do it now. You don't get that sort of traction with posts and things like that anymore. You used to be able to put a post up and get two hundred likes, just by getting the right hashtag. That just doesn't happen now. You don't get that increase of followers, or that sort of thing. It's really just a feed now, and it's so saturated that if you're coming in with a unique idea, everyone is sort of doing that same thing. Everyone's coming in with a razor-sharp unique idea. You know, like the yoga paddle boarders and stuff like that. Everyone's coming in with something like that, it's just hypersaturation in there now. That's just how I feel about Instagram. Chris: We've talked about this many times, but I'm challenged by using Instagram due to the fact that when you're actually posting something, you can't actually put a link in the post, therefore not being able to redirect people off the channel onto your own. And here at MeMedia, we do a lot of content creation. We do a lot of marketing for clients. We call it integrated digital marketing. So essentially what we're doing is we're creating that content, we're using the social channels to distribute that content, and get traffic back to the website. That's an awesome indicator to Google to boost your SEO, boost your Google rankings. If you can't do that post on Instagram and actually put a link in the post and get the traffic to your website, the only way you can do that now is through using their advertising. Andrew: Using it in the profile, which is not helpful. Yeah. Chris: Or tell people to click on the link in the profile. Exactly. Not helpful. So to me, Instagram's not a great thing to use for SEO, for promoting people to come to your website, which is the media that you own. Obviously, when you're on these channels, you're only renting space. You know? And with Facebook updating algorithms, it's ... Andrew: You can't really turn that into leads, per se. You can use Instagram to get direct messages and stuff like that, but who wants to be walking around with their phone all the time replying to messages and things like that as a form of inquiry? You can't get calls and things off Instagram the way you can, unless you're doing ads and things. It's not getting it back to your website. Not in a meaningful way, anyway. Chris: They're actually using ads. Andrew: But it is a brand tool. And the people that do it well, the industries that do it well, things like cafes and clothing and things like that. But you know, they're getting their brand out there, and people see this, and they're like "I want that," and then they can go and find it. That doesn't work for everyone, that sort of effect on brand awareness doesn't work for everyone. You can't see a picture on Instagram of, for example, laser eye surgery, and think "that looks good. I'll just go and get that today." It doesn't work for everyone. Chris: So let's talk about what's happening with the aspirational youth and the Gen X, Y, Z. Basically, how they're becoming disengaged with traditional advertising. 99% of millennials are actually disengaged with traditional advertising. So trying to replicate traditional advertising methods on social channels isn't really that effective. Given that 55% of people watch videos online every day, there is this huge, I guess, shift from everyone to produce videos. Once again, they're trying to take that traditional ad that they've done previously ... Andrew: Ah, we're talking about traditional media, yeah. Chris: Yeah. They've done in traditional media ... Andrew: They're failing so hard. It's like they're jumping on these social channels and they're like "Great. So we use the TV formula on social media." And everyone goes, "I don't want to watch TV on Facebook. Goodbye." Or "I don't want to watch TV ads on Facebook, see you later." Chris: I don't even want to watch ads! Andrew: Well, yeah. And that's the thing. You have to be very creative with these new formats now. You have to really think around, okay, the people that are watching these formats, they're escaping TV. So if we come at them with ads, they're not gonna react well to it. Because they're ignoring TV and they're going to Facebook or Instagram or YouTube or something like that. Last thing they want is TV ads coming at them, because that's what they've come from. Chris: So yeah, cutting to that "Proudly brought to you by your sponsor, let's listen to a message from our sponsors," all of that type of messaging just isn't gonna work. And the reason why we're focused on millennials and these aspirational youth is because the global workforce by 2025 is gonna have 8% baby boomers, 28% Gen X, 33% Gen Y, and 31% Gen Z. So that's our audience. Andrew: It's all social media generations now, from here on in. Chris: Absolutely. Andrew: They're not going to react to a straight up sponsorship message, or a straight up advert. But the thing that's happening now is like these online sponsorship messages that happen in podcasts and things, where they just say "hey look, our podcast is funded by Rode Microphones or something like that." And people expect that. They know that you have to be able to make money out of these things. Chris: That's right. Then it comes down to authenticity. And one thing that you'll notice when you, or that we definitely notice, is that with advertising that's used in podcasts, the host of the show is actually delivering the message from their point of view. So like Andrew just said, we are proudly brought to you by one of our sponsors, Rode Microphones. And this kit is Rode Microphones kit. And it's bloody awesome! So we can actually say that, because we've used the product. Andrew: And we're literally using it right now. Chris: That's right. And just out of nowhere, we actually have extra kit if you want to do more podcast from this studio and have more people sitting at this table. So where to now? We're seeing these massive shifts to video, massive shift to live video, and what do we want to see when we're doing that? What are some of the ... we want to see reach, we want to see video views, and we want to see engagement. Andrew: The funny thing there is where it comes back to promotion. So we already know that people like live video. But you don't get an awful lot of rich engagement when the live video's happening. So with everything, eventually, it inevitably comes down to the paid promotion. Facebook used to be great. You put something on your Facebook page, or your Facebook page, followers saw it. Now, what percentage is it now? Chris: One? Andrew: It's like 1%? Chris: Organic, yeah. 1% organic. Andrew: That's so weak. So all of these new formats, they're great while they're happening and people think they're exciting, but then it becomes commonplace, and we need to look at the promotion side of things. And that's where it's a real problem. The two big contenders right now are YouTube and Facebook for the live video, and both of them had terrible paid promotion. It doesn't even exist, really. They both kind of, in their help, I'll just bring it up now. YouTube, for example, says during your event, yeah, you can create a highlight clip after your event. Or before your event get your followers excited, etc. But there's nothing for promotion of a live stream. I think you said Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg mentioned something at their F8 conference? Chris: Don't quote me on this, but it is a rumour that promotion of live video during the live stream is going to be available sometime in the not too distant future. There's a whole realm of issues that could present. Andrew: Yeah! Like, obviously it needs to happen because it's what people are getting excited about. It's where they're moving, so we have to be able to promote it. But what happens then? Because Facebook are kind of liable. They review ads, so we put like 200 ads up and they'll go through them and sixty might get through because of various reasons. How do they monitor the live video? So if someone says "I'm gonna do a video about this," but then it's about something else and it offends everyone, it looks bad for, say, Facebook or YouTube, so. Chris: Well that's where I think their feature that they've got now for videos that are uploaded is that they do have the ability for Facebook to process your captions. So for those that don't know, captions mean subtitles that appear at the bottom. That's pretty amazing technology. Obviously, that's done by a machine. And it's not 100% accurate, in fact it needs a lot of work. But if they have the ability to do that live, then potentially they can kick out those profanities and ... Andrew: Flagging things, and then someone comes in and manually watches it. Because Facebook already do that. What I've had explained to me by someone that does the forums on Facebook, there's an automatic review process, and that's what determines if your ads go live or not. And then if things get flagged, someone manually reviews it, so it's like a two step process. I think it'll be something like that. They're looking for profanity or things like that, and then someone will come in and check out that stream, maybe they check what the reactions are because people can react as they go, they can say "Like this, hate this." Maybe if it's too many people disliking it or having negative reactions, then someone jumps in. They'll have to find a solution around that if they want to monetise it, but they will monetise it because they love, especially Facebook, love monetising things. Chris: Of course, of course they do. Andrew: YouTube I'm not sure exactly how they're gonna do it. Chris: One of the most amazing things is, when we're actually creating content for our clients, is the reach and engagement that we get, and the video views that we're getting for our clients here at MeMedia. But one thing that's been amazing, and that's in a new venture that we've co-founded with two other directors, Leigh Kelson and Scott Burke, for Beach City, is amazing reach. Which is 1.8 million reach, 434,000 video views, and 109,000 post engagements on those videos. Andrew: And that's mostly with live video? Chris: Yes. All live video. Truly spectacular engagement, and that's the key metric that we're looking at there. Supposedly, 10% is excellent engagement, and we're actually getting over 20%. Given the multitude of places where we can post video, which we spoke about before, Facebook's an awesome place to get reach and engagement. People are spending less time actually viewing the videos on Facebook than they are on YouTube. Andrew: Definitely, significantly less. But YouTube's a video platform, so people are expecting it. There's still this sort of interrupted feeling for the live video on Facebook, because you get that notification saying "so-and-so's live." Some people just don't react so well to it. Some people are into it. Facebook's a feed of the content you're interested in there. So sometimes, "so-and-so's live" could be disruptive to someone just wanting to look at memes or something like that. But YouTube? Definitely, people are ready for live video on YouTube. Chris: There's a huge reason to post on YouTube, as we've discussed many times, and the reason why we post on YouTube is that obviously, Google doesn't crawl through Facebook's content to list it in the search engine results pages, which is the Google listings when you do a search. Whereas when you do post on YouTube, then there's an opportunity for those videos to appear in the search. Andrew: And that's something we often say to clients, it's like if you can't get a page rank for something because your competitors have great content for something, do they have videos? Probably not. Google's gonna favour videos, because they own YouTube. So that's a good way to sneak past. It's always a good reason to be putting videos on YouTube. Chris: And there's so many different ways you can create videos, whether it's slideshows or chats or podcasts. Andrew: Exactly. The other thing that's good about YouTube is it's always been a video platform, so it's more like a library than Facebook. Facebook's a feed, so things get lost if you post a lot. Things'll just disappear back. And people don't really go backwards through your feed too much. They might see something they like, and then they'll think "okay, let's look at old videos." It's not as easy to do with Facebook, but if someone sees something they like on YouTube, they can subscribe to you. They can get all your new videos. They can look at all your archived videos. It's a lot more organised for that sort of thing. But, the connectivity of people's not there on YouTube. Chris: No, that's right. Because I mean, there's just not as many people there. With Facebook having two billion plus monthly users ... Andrew: Yes. Let's bring that up. Chris: Over two billion monthly active Facebook users, with ages 25 to 34 making up 29% of those users worldwide. Andrew: Yeah, so this is all the people we're talking about. They're Gen Y, X, and millennials. They're all there, and they're online all the time. Something like 28 times a day someone checks their Facebook, on average. Chris: Of course. Andrew: In these generations. Chris: We're highly addicted beings and we really had no chance when the smartphone came around, to not be addicted according to Simon Sinek, the famous author. Some other stats. Like we said, the decline of broadcast TV. 24% decline in live TV for 18 to 24 year olds since 2016. There's a clear shift to social. There's a clear shift to YouTube. There's a clear shift to online. There's a clear shift in your very home, watching multi devices being used in the same room while the TV is still on, but just playing some average stuff in the background, to put it nicely. Andrew: That's, yeah. That's on a timeline that you can't really control. Chris: Yeah, so everything's on demand. 65% of global media consumers choose video on demand. Far out. Andrew: We're not even considering things like Netflix, the actual streaming TV services. Half the time when someone's saying TV, they actually mean Netflix. "I watched TV last night." They watched Netflix last night. That's another thing. But I suppose what we're getting at here about all this shift is what can you do about it? How can you leverage this from a marketing perspective? And that's where it gets interesting, because everyone's still trying to figure it out. How does this work? We're still trying to figure it out. And we're finding things that work, but how far can you push that before people start to get annoyed because you're in their personal downtime? If you're annoying someone on Facebook, you're in their downtime and people don't like being annoyed in their downtime. That's where it's leading edge right now, we're trying to figure out how to make this work. But the thing is, the big difference between traditional media and this new type of media like Facebook and YouTube and all this live video stuff is, you've got analytics, you've got metrics, so you can actually see the data behind this. You can see publicly accessible data about what people are reacting to, the results you're getting, and all that sort of thing. You're never gonna get that with TV. If you approach a TV channel and say "I want to put ads up," they'll tell you "You're gonna get so-and-so people, this many people watching it today." Chris: This is what our reach is per month and how many people we're reaching, this demographic. But you don't actually know what your specific ad or mention in the show, how many eyeballs it hit and how many people actually liked it. Andrew: And even if a TV's on, if there's a TV on and there's a family of five watching the TV, four of those people are on Facebook at any given time. So they can't really prove that. You see those, cinema advertising, which is probably even a step down from TV. You're watching a movie and it says "Cinema advertising works!" And you'll be the only person in the cinema. There's something wrong there. How can they prove any of this anymore? Chris: So clearly we've got a shift to social media, online media, and on-demand media. And we can actually give valuable ROI in terms of statistics and metrics of who viewed your particular piece of content, brand, you know, ad. So there's no time like the present, obviously, to make these shifts. And there's plenty other ways that are happening right here right now that ... you know, like, influencing marketing is another way to ... Andrew: Ah yeah, that's a mince higher with your podcast. Chris: Yep. I think we're gonna have to talk about that another time. So thanks very much for listening. Like we said, we hope you like Get Fact Up. The new way we're delivering, it somewhat helps our production time, helps us produce more content, and you can hire this studio too. Simply inquire on memedia.com.au. Thanks, and thanks to Rode Microphones for helping deliver this vodcast.

Published Nov 13, 2017 Chris: Good day, world. Chris Hogan and Andrew Groat coming to you live from the MeMedia studio here at Burleigh Heads for "Get Fact Up" episode number 68 - on important marketing metrics to track. How you going, Andrew? Andrew: Good. How are you? Chris: Good, mate. So website traffic is probably the number one metric that people tend to track when they're looking at - obviously their marketing reports. And we know that being that high a level probably isn't good enough. Andrew: Yeah, traffic's not really that important. There're other things that you should be looking at. Chris: Cool. So we've got some example Google Analytics snapshots that we've got here from the Interwebs. And we wanted to just have a look over those and break some of them down. So here we have the Google Analytics snapshot of acquisitions and channels, it's real easy to find. And it's breaking down that high level traffic into multiple different channels... Andrew: The different marketing streams, yeah. So this one's eCommerce business, and straight off the bat you can see that something's wrong here, ‘cause you've got paid searches as the highest traffic. But, you need to circle a few things here, so the problem here is the bounce rate is massive. Paid search, high bounce rate, a lot of money's gone down the drain quite frankly. Chris: So let's talk about bounce rate while we're on that. So between 55% and 70% bounce rate is considered high. Anything over 70% is considered pretty much extreme. So it's time to bring that down. Andrew: So just to explain what a bounce is, it's when someone comes to your page - doesn't click on anything and then they leave. So someone that didn't interact with your page at all. Chris: And bounces can happen a lot. Especially in search and social - ah sorry, in paid search and social, because people have searched for a particular product. Andrew: They may not necessarily wanna see it. You might have put it in front of them when they don't want it. Chris: In paid search they've searched for a particular product, they've clicked on that link to that paid page and they've seen what they wanted to see - probably priced, they're shopping around, boom they're gone again. If you didn't entice them to click through to another page, then essentially they've bounced. And they could've been sitting on that page for a long time. In fact, they could've been sitting on that for hours, all day, reading all the content that you had to offer, but if they didn't click through to another page it's called a bounce. So the same thing can happen in social, right? Because... Andrew: Yeah, we say this all the time that social's people's down time. And if you're putting ads in front of them and they don't realise it, they've clicked through to an ad, they're often just gonna bail back out of that. Social traffic tends to have high bounce rate and lower engagement metrics because of that. But, it's a great branding opportunity, it's not a right off there. You just have to be showing the right sort of content, maybe not necessarily trying to get someone to buy something straight from Facebook. Chris: And then we've got on that same slide we've got their conversion rate, and 3.11 conversion rate. Conversions categorised as 2% as average, 5% is good and 10% plus is great. So they're sitting between averaging good. Now if we were going to say, for example if the client said, "Hey, while I'm getting lots of traffic on paid search, that's great, I'm gonna increase my spend." Andrew: Well I would say don't even bother. Especially when you have a little bit further down that email traffic is a 10.24% conversion rate. I would be saying do more email campaigns, 'cause that's obviously working really well. And then maybe have a look at bringing this bounce rate down, put a bit of work into that. Make some more relevant content, have a look at your page load potentially and have a look at your targeting - maybe you're showing your ads to the wrong people. Chris: There's so much you can do in eCommerce. Show that there's a sale on and that it's a limited time. For example, there's a counter there just above the "add to cart" button that says buy now or you'll miss out. For instance... Andrew: Get some more testimonials. Get some more reviews and writings and things like that. Chris: More content on that page essentially. So that is called conversion rate optimisation. Improving your page to improve conversions. If you can improve those conversions then potentially go back and invest more dollars into that paid advertising. Andrew: I would also say maybe get a heat map or a screen recording software installed on the website and actually get some hard data - hard evidence about what's going on there. It might just be as simple as there's no calls to action above the fold, it might be a real easy fix. Chris: Could be an error. Paid search - don't forget if you've got so many heaps of campaigns, that's a very high level view. You could have one campaign that's absolutely tanking because for whatever reason your products are no longer available, discontinued or something like that. Andrew: Yeah, that's right. Especially with AdWords, it could just be one keyword's just ruining your entire campaign. It's really important to be looking at those metrics as well. Chris: So let's move on to slide 7 where we've actually got a different eCommerce business where their highest traffic source is organic. Andrew: Whoa, yeah, they're doing really well. 11% conversion rate. Chris: And they're converting 11% on that organic traffic. That's really good. Essentially then we looked at paid searches, their second biggest paid channel. And they've got a 7% conversion rate there. And so therefore they're advertising campaign on AdWords needs tweaking and improving because obviously there's a good conversion rate happening in organic. There's not a lot wrong with their pages, but that conversion rate indicates to me that maybe their actual advertising campaigns wrong. Andrew: Yeah, that's what I think. Maybe they just needed to tighten up what they're targeting there. Another good thing that I've seen with this one - we've got a great ad, but they've got their revenue filled in there. So they're actually pushing data of all their sales back, which is awesome because that means they can actually measure ROI properly, so you can have a look at your AdWords page and analytics - you can see how much you spending and what you're getting back for it, then you get that ROI metric. That's awesome if you can actually get that, it's not possible for everyone. Chris: Which comes down to cost per acquisition. Andrew: That's right, so if you know that then you can scale as far as you want. Chris: So cost per acquisition is basically cost per sale. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Chris: Instead of tracking cost per click, track cost per acquisition. If you bring that down... Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Also, here their bounce rate is incredibly low on this one. Chris: Yeah, 19.43% on organic search and 14.78% even on paid, which is just awesome. Really good. Andrew: Two other metrics I think worth mentioning here because this is so high on this one I just want to say. Under behaviour on here, you've got bounce rate, pages per session, average session duration. Pages per session is really important, that's how many - for each person that comes to your site, that's how many different pages they go on there. And if you're above 2.5% that's pretty good. Their average pages per session across all channels is 6.89%, that's great. That means people are really searching around going through everything. Chris: Yup. Andrew: Also, the session duration: 3 minutes, that's great too. If you've got above 2 minutes that's awesome. People spending a lot of time on their website. They've obviously got a lot of really good related content, a lot of good internal linking. I'd say they've got a really good interface there as well. Chris: So, on product pages you may also be interested in if they're doing blogging then potentially they've got interlinked pages. Here's the product we're talking about - go and check it out in the cart, all that sort of stuff. Andrew: They've got a great funnel, that much is obvious. So yeah, they're doing great. Chris: Slide 8, we've got a service based business, and obviously which means no eCommerce tracking on the site. And the highest channel - highest volume of traffic coming through is via organic for this one. Now, they've got a 56% bounce rate on their organic and 2.12 pages per session. Andrew: It's not bad. Chris: Yeah, that's right. Andrew: But there's room, room to improve, that's for sure... Chris: There is room for improvement. So, with bounce rate, like we said, that people are coming in and their not exactly seeing what we wanted them to see and they're leaving. But with 2.12 pages per session on organic - they kind of are finding what they are wanting to find. They're not really that eager to make an inquiry because their actual conversion rate is low, in the 2%'s, so it's an average conversion rate. Andrew: Yeah, so maybe there's a trust issue there and that's where I'd say probably maybe looking at getting some reviews, testimonials, that sort of thing - maybe having a look at the form, reducing the amount of fields in the form. Just to bring down all the barriers, make it easier for an inquiry to happen there. Chris: Really good point you've made there, Andrew, about the barriers to inquiry and completing a form. Those - Don't ask for too much information, what do you really need from people? Name, phone number, email address - that's pretty much it. Andrew: Yeah, like that's it. Even have a request to call back can be a better option than having an inquiry. Sometimes people don't feel that comfortable about filling all that information in. Chris: An optional message field is good. I think leave that one optional. So the top 3 required and an optional message field, boom. And then that could absolutely increase the conversion rate on those inquiries. Andrew: If I was to give these people any advice, though, it would be look at they're social campaigns, though here. Cause you can see there that their conversion rate is .9% on social. Bounce rate's 84%, like obviously they're sending the wrong message out there or maybe just reaching the wrong people. There's massive room for improvement there. Chris: Yeah, hard one, I'm with you on that. There's definitely some improvements that are needed. I mean, what are they sending people to this site for? Is it to consume content? They're not really clicking through to other pages on the site. It's - pages per session 1.6, time on site a minute ten. They really do need to reconsider why they're sending people there and... Andrew: Obviously sending them there for maybe promoting blogs or something like that. But then you just have to look at what they're doing next. Chris: They need to encourage and click through... Andrew: Calls to action in their blogs. Chris: Yeah, super important. Cool. Slide 9, we've got another service based business. So again organic search is the highest traffic source. Bounce rate is lower, 48%, that's great. It's good, rather. And 2.39 pages per session, which is pretty much average there. And a conversion rate of 4.84%. So, their conversion rate's obviously better than the last. And that means that their calls to action are much better and their barriers... Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative)... Chris: Their forms are probably better. They potentially got testimonials or some kind of - they've developed some kind of trust with the audience to encourage that inquiry. Maybe there's some sort of free offer, potentially round that... Andrew: Yeah, their funnel could just be better overall. And it might just be a type of service that people are more interested in, in general, you never really know that. Chris: Industry comes in... Andrew: That's right, yeah like some people just have a tough industry that you always have to consider. Chris: Exactly. So apart from website traffic sources we wanna focus on what's happening out there in amongst the other - I guess campaigns that we could be running. So, obviously social is probably the most popular and most common activity that people are undertaking when they're doing marketing. I think we've spoken about this before, but just to recap, what's some of the metrics people need to be tracking when they're doing social campaigns? Andrew: Okay, big thing for me is always engagement, especially the social. You wanna say that people are actually interacting with your content. Clicks through the website not always that important, 'cause you can see that they might be doing nothing when they get to the website. Most important thing is that they're having a good time on the social platform first and foremost. And then something that people don't often look at is one called "social clicks", which is a sort of like the viral effect. It's when someone's interacted with your content and then their friends doing it or maybe they've shared it to someone else. That's that sort of roll off growth effect that happens on social, that's a really important one, cause that means that the community's accepting it. It means it's getting shared around. Chris: And another really important metric that people need to be targeting - I'm sorry, monitoring when they're looking at their reports, their monthly reports, is search into results pages. So the results of their ranking of their keywords in search. Andrew: That's right. So you can look at your traffic for organic and that's great but you really wanna know where it's coming from, because you wanna know what you wanna optimise for on what you should be creating more content for. If you're not using a software for tracking your search engine results, you can go into search console and everyone should have search console. Google search console set up. You can have a look at your keyword report in there and that'll show you all the traffic that's coming in for different keywords and it will also show you the impressions for different keywords. So you can see who's seeing you for different keywords. And that at least is very important because that data's not in Google analytics anymore. Chris: It's not a complete picture because Google has wiped out a lot of the keywords that people actual typing in under a category called, "not provided", but... Andrew: It shows a lot more than Google analytics at least. Chris: Exactly. Andrew: So you get something there. Chris: Yeah. Is that all we got time for? Look I think this is a very high level view. Still, we've sorta dived in a little bit. But, with eCommerce there's so much more you could be looking at. Once you've got some of that conversions - what's happening with the conversions? Well potentially people are getting to the cart, and they're abandoning cart. So you need to look at the exit pages and what can you do there? Well you can be running automated email campaigns. You can be running remarketing campaigns on Google AdWords and social. There's lots of opportunities there. But again we said we're gonna have a high level view, and I think we've done that here so hopefully that's - I guess helpful. Anything to add, Andrew? Andrew: You know what? We could just go on forever. But I think maybe we'll do one on each specific channel, in the future, I'd think it'd be good. Chris: Yeah. Great! Well, thanks very much for your time. That was "Get Fact Up", episode 68. And you're here with Andrew Groat and Chris Hogan from MeMedia, here at the Burleigh Heads Studio's on the Gold Coast. Cheers.

Published Oct 8, 2017 VIDEO TRANSCRIPT: Chris: G'day world. Chris Hogan and Andrew Groat coming to you live from ME Media studios here in Burleigh Heads, where we're produced Get Fact Up. Our new way of producing our Get Fact Up series is via Vodcasting in this studio, which is available for hire for you as well. How you going Andrew? Andrew: Yeah good, how are you Chris? Chris: Awesome. So today we're going to be talking about influencer marketing. We actually alluded to that last week, we said we needed a whole new show for that. Firstly, let's dive into it, what is influencer marketing? Andrew: So influencer marketing, for me, I think leverage. So, you've got your own circle of followers and things like that and you can slowly expand that but when you're working with influencers, you're talking to someone who's got much larger reach, they've got higher indorsement with all their fans, they've got all the content out there already, you're just playing in bigger circles and there's specific metrics that you need to look for, which you've detailed here. Chris: Yeah, so exactly what you've just said, breaking out of your existing circle and into other people's circles. Influencers can be anything from social influencers, be it Facebook, YouTube, Twitter- Andrew: Instagram. Chris: ... Instagram. But also bloggers. Let's not forget the bloggers, okay. Where to from there? Andrew: Content producers. Chris: Content producers. Andrew: More of less, yeah. Chris: Exactly, yeah. SO they're creating original content. Andrew: And they've been doing it for long enough that they've gained trust and all that sort of thing. They've got momentum, they've got inertia with what they're doing and they're doing it for the love of the people, so they've really got that connection there and that's what you want to tap into. Because as a brand, as a business, that's hard to do. There's always that distrust so it's associating yourself with these people that have the ears of everyone else, you know? Chris: Absolutely. So these people have essentially, like you just said, alluded to, they have been doing it for the love of it for a long time before they've actually been able to monetize it. Not all of them even are monetizing. Andrew: I think most people, they have to do it about 2 years before they really see a proper return on investment. Chris: Easily. Andrew: So it has to be a hobby for the longest time and that's the only way to really get that sort of trust and momentum with the endorsement. Chris: So we've got two different ways to utilise ... use, influences to help your brand run a campaign, boost the reach of your brand or product or increase sales etc. So there's two ways to do that, we can either attract or engage them. Andrew: By attracting we're creating something that they need or we're delivering something that they need. And then we're reaching out to them, we're basically just directly contacting and finding these people and being like, "Hey, I've got something for you or I want to pay you to interact with my brand" or something along those lines. Chris: Yeah for example. Research companies do that all of the time. They put out these beautiful slide decks and infographics and what not on ... what are the statistics in certain countries around certain stats, and if they make it even more beautiful then other people, other bloggers, other news corporations actually go and use those stats and cite them in their blog and link back to them. Andrew: Yeah exactly. So using bloggers as an example, they need to get their content from somewhere, they can't just make it up out of thin air. They're people like you and I, they'll search for these facts and when they find it, they're going to use it in their content and if you're presenting it to them in a way that's really, really helpful for them, then they're definitely going to choose you over something else. Chris: So that's the attraction method that we're going in to so we'll keep going down that road for a second. So have we got some example that ... Andrew: Yeah, okay. So I had a think about this, because we were talking about this recently. Obviously, it requires a bit of work, you have to really think, you have to really research your influences, you have to find these people first and you have to look at what they're creating. So, these people are creating this stuff, what do they need to create this stuff? They need facts and figures and juicy content, they need videos and images, they don't know how to do all this stuff. So you make this for them and basically present it, you can just present it in a way, you can just have it out there and they'll find it or you can contact them. Chris: That's the engaging way, yeah. Andrew: Example is, so you look at your niche, let's say, because we were talking about this today, a local attraction. So you look at the influence in that niche, it's going to be something like travel bloggers. If we're saying Australia or even Gold Coast, it'll be like a travel blogger or local guide or something along those lines. What type of content do they create? They're going to create lists, like Top 10 things to do in the Gold Coast. Let's use as an example, Top Ten Things to Do Outdoors. They need to get their info from somewhere about things to do around the Gold Coast, they're not literally going to go and search, go to all these places and figure this stuff out, they'll search this on Google. So you need to be ready for that, and you create something and ... Something that we do a lot of here at ME Media is we create Go-to guide articles, where it's like, we're creating the best guide for a particular topic to attract influences. And this guide will have everything someone would possibly need if they wanted to spread the word about something. So using the local attraction as an example, you would create an article that's basically like, "This is why this attraction is the perfect outdoor experience." Videos, images, tonnes of facts and all sort of juicy stuff that someone could quote, cite, link to or something like that as an influencer, like a travel blogger. And you could even go one step further and contact them and say, "Hey, love what you do. I've written something that perfectly fits in with what you do, would love to see it on your list" or something like that. Chris: And some of them will obviously be so into it, doing it for the love of it, that they see the benefit of improving their content, that they'll actually ... no problems, just do it. Andrew: Because the thing is they have to create this stuff, and if you're giving it to them exactly as they need it or they're finding you on the web exactly how they need it, then they're going to use you, you're making their life easier. This is kind of a business for them so if you're giving it to them on a platter- Chris: They're journalist right? Andrew: ... they're going to choose you over- Chris: They need stats. Andrew: ...yeah they're journalists, they're going to choose you over someone that's making it difficult. Or the less research they have to do, the better. Chris: So these people, when we're attracting them and you're engaging them, it's a blurred line in this particular case, where you're actually calling them up or emailing them, they're not an influencer yet, maybe they're still growing their channel and growing their audience. Yeah, we're getting into the potential engagement- Andrew: It's always give and take. I mean, they're using you to basically look good. If they look like an expert because of you then you're giving them something, if you get a whole bunch of traffic because they've endorsed you, then you get something. It's kind of a joint venture, the influencer model. And the thing is, when someone is going to create this sort of content, they think ... We talk about it, influencer strategy, the objection's always, we should be creating content for our potential customers and this is where we need to look at the circle of reach. Your potential customers are only this big but- Chris: Because you're playing in your existing circle right now. Andrew: ... your existing circle. But if you think outside the box just a little bit and say, "Okay, my potential customers only go this far and they don't necessarily trust me" then you look at the people that can influence that and you're like, "Wow, their reach is huge" and everyone trusts them. So if you can attract them, that little bit of work that you've done to connect with them, it's just exposing you to a bigger, more trusting audience. Chris: So I want to get into the engagement side of things because then that reveals the metrics. So obviously you can actually go out and find these particular influences and engage them and yes, pay them to actually- Andrew: Yeah you just have to have something for them because it's a business for them. Chris: ...pay them to do brand mention, do a custom piece of content and so on and so forth. So when we're doing this, influencer marketing is a real deal. We've spoke about the demise of broadcast and the rise of online media. Like I said, we've got Instagrammers, we've got Facebookers, we've got YouTubers and we've got bloggers, but the metrics aren't all the same. If you're engaging people on these social channels or in their channel of choice then we have to be really- Andrew: Smart. Chris: ... honest with ourselves that we're not going to always get increased sales, increased conversions, increased traffic. So let's dive into Instagram just for a second. Instagram is very popular for influencers, there's heaps of them there. Yes, there's fake one too, but there's still a lot of legit ones there. And they've been doing this for quite a few years now. Andrew: Most of them since the start of Instagram, the ones that are doing well, yeah. Chris: Instagram's all about engagement, clearly, one word. That's what sums up Instagram when you're looking at metrics. So likes, comments, re-grams, brand mentions, so re-grams being like a share, and hashtags. So you can look at trends for hashtags. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). But the thing you won't get from Instagram is traffic and probably not sales either. So you have to be smart about this. If you're going to engage an Instagram influencer, you don't want to be getting traffic and sales, you don't want to be thinking like that, it's brand exposure exclusively. Chris: You might grow your Instagram channel, yeah, that's fine but then you can leverage off that to increase sales. Andrew: In some other way, yeah. Chris: But directly, we're talking about direct metrics from these influencer campaigns. So let's talk about Facebook metrics. So obviously the content that gets released, you'll get likes, comments, shares, brand mentions, page likes could increase on your own channel. Remember they're not actually on your channel creating the content and sharing the content. They're created it and sharing it through their own channel because that's where their audience is. But they can help boost your page likes as one of the metrics. Andrew: Yeah, there's more of a connection than Instagram. And you know, there is the website traffic but you're still in a tight knit social platform and people don't want to leave. People that are on Facebook don't necessarily want to leave Facebook unless they're looking for something. So you still have to remember it's better for just increasing your Facebook reach, increasing your branding. It's still the same, but you can get traffic from it. Chris: You can do website traffic, you can increase conversions and you can increase sales. So it's possible but even though we say it's possible, we've gotta have a really honest conversation with these influencers before we start. What have you done before, what have you actually done for other brands before? Have you increased sales? Have you increased conversions? Ah, no. Okay, well I'm still fine with going ahead with you but if we can't increase sales and that, let's look at what we can increase, let's look at the metrics we can measure and can improve on and then have a conversation around that. Let's not assume that everyone's going to increase sales and conversions. Andrew: And partly, you need to be smart about this. You can't approach a Facebook influencer and expect them to increase traffic to your website. So you need to remember that on your side as a business approaching an influencer. But then yeah, they need to be clear about that, because they may not be able to deliver that. So it's just about getting that agreement in place, the right agreement. And then just making sure, yes I believe you can deliver that because that's what this channel does, and then them just delivering on what they've said. So if you don't have that in place then it can be tricky, it can be muddy waters with influencers. Chris: Yeah. And then we've got bloggers. Obviously, from bloggers we can increase traffic, we can potentially increase our SEO, so our keyword ranking, referrals from that particular source, we can track that, conversions and sales. So bloggers are pretty straight forward. Andrew: I personally think that, influencers, bloggers are the best influencers. You can use that in a lot of different directions. And anyone that's a blogger also has ... they're across all their social channels. Because I mean, they're a personality, they need to make sure all this is right, they know how to share on social and thing like that. Chris: Bloggers are also meant to divulge that the content that they're producing has been paid for. Just a hot tip there. So even though ... because Google's watching, Google's always watching, and if they see a link from your site and they come to understand that, hang on a minute, you're creating content that's paid content, so advertorial like content, and you're not divulging that, all of a sudden all of that effort and money that the brand actually paid that blogger to create just went down the tube because Google just found out that, oh no, they're being paid for that content so disregard it, it's not organic. Andrew: Because Google's a business. They don't want to be delivering something that's dishonest. Chris: Well you shouldn't be able to pay for SEO, that's what Google's all about. SEO is earned. So YouTube metrics. So brand, channel subscriptions. So brand engagement, brand awareness and channel subscriptions can be metrics. Traffic to your website because you can actually put links in the descriptions. Referrals, so we can see where the referrals are coming from, they're coming form YouTube. There will actually be, potentially some difficultly around tracking those referrals, so be careful about that. Conversions, so we could potentially increase conversions, maybe the content they've produced gets embedded, you imbed that content on your product pages, potentially, hey that's boosting trust right? Someone else created a piece of content about the product that I'm trying to sell, beautiful. And they're authentic, they're trustworthy. Andrew: Yeah YouTube can be a really good one because YouTube gets really loyal followers. So if you find someone that's got loyal following and they create a video about your brand, what you do, a product, something along those lines, it can be really, really good and they can send a lot of really loyal traffic there. It's just ... been around for a long time and people are very fierce about their loyalty on YouTube. So it can go both ways, it can also go badly if you're approaching the wrong type of YouTube influencer because it's very strong. That strong loyalty, yeah, you have to make sure you're getting the right type of thing to the right type of person on there. It's kind of like Reddit. You don't want to go on there with something that's obviously a branded message, people don't ... they'll be very clear if they don't respect it. Chris: Authenticity. All about authenticity, being true, being trustworthy. These influencers, they're taking a risk when they're taking on your brand and most of them aren't going to actually do it if they feel that it's too risky. They're actually going to say, "Well, no. I need to know that I believe in your product, your brand before I actually do it" and if it's coming from a place of trust and authenticity than their audience is going to love it and it's going to be forever. Don't forget that the content they create is forever. So if they sell out on one person, their audience might die and not engage as much on the next person and they know that. So look, I think we should wrap that up in the interest of time. That's been influencer marketing, I hope everybody's got some education around that. I think it's a great conversation Andrew. I hope you're enjoying this new format of Get Fact Up, I know I am, in and out. And, look, more to come. I'm not sure what next week's going to be about. Andrew: We could even continue with this, but maybe we'll do something different next week. Chris: Predictions, predictions. So one of the predictions is that influencer marketing is on the rise, it's huge and it's going to be tried and tested a lot more over the next ... now, year. It's happening right now, more and more people are signing up for it. So I think that advertising budgets are going to be seriously affected. I'm saying that a minimum of 10%, maybe 25% of marketing budgets are going to shift to influencer marketing. Can't measure that, I doubt we can measure that, sorry. Prediction that you can't measure. Andrew: I forgot that we were doing the predictions so you kind of sprung this one me. But for me, I think it's the influencers that are doing live video that are going to be the ones to watch. No one really knows how to track live video, the metrics are all weird because you don't see it until after ... it's historical metrics on live video, it's weird to figure out exactly how it works at this stage. But the influencers that are doing live video well, they're going to be the ones, I think, to watch in the future and that's going to be the format to watch in the future. Chris: Yep. Well, thanks very much to Rogue microphones for our beautiful microphones, they are sexy microphones. And thanks very much to ME Media, our agency, our content marketing agency and also thanks very much to Beach City, who is also an influencer marketer in their own space as well, doing plenty of live videos. Thanks very much guys and keep watching.

---------------------- Appreciation written, produced, and narrated by Remedy Robinson Twitter: @slowdragremedy Email: slowdragwithremedy@gmail.com Podcast music by https://www.fesliyanstudios.com Rate this Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/slowdrag ---------------------- Let Him Dangle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-vtA-k2QUU Elvis Costello Wiki Resource: "Let Him Dangle": http://www.elviscostello.info/wiki/index.php/Let_Him_Dangle  Companion Blog: https://slowdragwithremedy.home.blog/2019/10/05/episode-10-let-him-dangle/ References: A learning journal that cites Ben Franklin: https://wiki.auckland.ac.nz/display/MGMT300/A+man+convinced+against+his+will%2C+is+of+the+same+opinion+still   Benjamin Franklin misquotes from the Franklin institute blog: https://www.fi.edu/benjamin-franklin/7-things-benjamin-franklin-never-said   Why it’s a waste of time trying to determine who said “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”: https://quotationcelebration.wordpress.com/2017/02/20/a-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still-unknown/   Hunting down who coined “writing about music is like dancing about architecture”: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/11/08/writing-about-music/   Derek Bentley, “A Victim of British Justice?” http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/bentley.html   UK Bentley case breakthrough: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/24208.stm Craig’s Relief at Bentley’s Posthumous Pardon: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/142351.stm   Newsnight – Derek Bentley #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiy6Dx8DvBw   Linguistic ambiguity: http://michealaxelsen.com/blog/?p=347   Syntactic Ambiguity: https://www.thoughtco.com/syntactic-ambiguity-grammar-1692179   Britain’s last executions: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/britain-last-executions-hanging-criminals-low-key   Derek Bentley’s Headstone: http://veryverybritish.blogspot.com/2014/06/derek-bentley.html   “Let Him Have It” Film Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7kjmN2SFGo So, until next time, Adieu, my little ballyhoo   "Let Him Dangle" Lyrics: Bentley said to Craig, "Let him have it, Chris" They still don't know today just what he meant by this Craig fired the pistol, but was too young to swing So the police took Bentley and the very next thing Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle Bentley had surrendered, he was under arrest When he gave Chris Craig that fatal request Craig shot Sidney Miles, he took Bentley's word The prosecution claimed as they charged them with murder Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle They say Derek Bentley was easily led Well what's that to the woman that Sidney Miles wed? Though guilty was the verdict, and Craig had shot him dead The gallows were for Bentley and still she never said Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle Well, it's hard to imagine it's the times that have changed When there's a murder in the kitchen that is brutal and strange If killing anybody is a terrible crime Why does this bloodthirsty chorus come 'round from time to time? Let him dangle Not many people thought that Bentley would hang But the word never came, the phone never rang Outside Wandsworth Prison there was horror and hate As the hangman shook Bentley's hand to calculate his weight Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle Well, it's hard to imagine it's the times that have changed When there's a murder in the kitchen that is brutal and strange If killing anybody is a terrible crime Why does this bloodthirsty chorus come 'round from time to time? Let him dangle From a welfare state to society murder "Bring back the noose" is always heard Whenever those swine are under attack But it won't make you even, it won't bring him back Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle Let him dangle, let him dangle String him up...

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there on our real estate path. Today we discuss the difference between calling ourselves a professional and actually being a professional. reThink Real Estate Podcast Trannscription Audio length 28:02 RTRE 63 – Being a Pro vs. Saying You're a Pro [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris Lazarus here. Here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Nate you've got a bone to pick with some people. What's going on dude? [Nathan]: I mean call it a bone or not. But so I was just recently on a trip with some buddies of mine. And I was ranting. Or we were individually ranting I should say, about our industries that we respectively work in. And of course I got some puzzled looks and different things and, you know, about my rants. And ironically enough, one of the guys on the trip called me the day after we got back.  And he says “I have new respect for what you were talking about.” I said “What do you mean?” He says “Listen, you know, my…my aunt, you know, she…she passed away and…and one of my family members is selling her house. And the agent that my aunt hired said ”Listen I don't really want you telling anybody that somebody passed away in the home. Yada yada yada.”” The agent responded with “Trust me this is what I do for a living.” My friend then said “Please ask me how many houses has she sold.” I said “Well Larry how many houses as she sold?” He said zero. And he said “I totally get it.” He said this individual, you know, is making it appear I guess if you would, that they're an expert in our industry and, you know, what we do, but they've not sold a home. They have a license. Right. They're a realtor. Right. But they've done zero business. So again there…there is there's some delineation here between who's an agent who is a licensee. Right. And I get it. Just wound up. I mean I get it, you know, but I don't I also don't get it. I was taught “Fake it til you make it.” When I started. And I don't…I don't think that's the way to go. I think there's a lot of other paths to go through education and training and certain things, that I believe, you know, yourself and Christian both provide. But what would you two tell an agent in this situation? Right. [Chris]: Oh I wouldn't say…I would tell the agent “Look don't tell people this is what you do for a living until you actually make a living off of it.” [Nathan]: Christian? [Christian]: I mean my whole thing…because I was kind of taught same thing. Kind of “Fake it til you make it. Yo here's some scripts to make it sound like, you know, what you're talking about that you don't.” What I tell my new agents is like, you know, “Don't…don't come out and say “Hey I'm brand new. I don't know what I'm doing.” But positioning in such a way where you're saying “Hey, you know, I'm working closely with my designated broker. If I don't have the answer I can get it. You're getting two for the price of one. It's not just new agent flailing out there trying to pretend like they know what they're doing.”” So, you know, essentially don't lie but also don't come straight out say “Hey I don't know what I'm doing and I have no confidence. You know, I'm probably gonna [censored] up and [censored] over your listing, you know, I'm a seller.” But at the same time don't…you merely like you yeah you have all experienced in the world when you don't. because it's not hard to find out information about how experienced or how long an agent's been licensed. [Chris]: Doesn't even require an open records request. You can just look it on Zillow. [Christian]: Yeah I mean and…and…and that's it. And it may not be the case with every real estate firm. But for us, you know, we closely work with our new agents to make sure they're providing the best experience. They know what they're doing. They're not, you know, floundering, you know. And I know business brokerages are supposed to do that. [Chris]:Floundering. Like flopping around flopping around [laughter].  [Christian]: Yeah flopping around the land.  [Nathan]: Like a fish out of water is what it looks like. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: It's hard…it's hard for a new agent to mask that when, you know, you don't really know how the process works, and you don't really know the direction you're supposed to be going and what you're supposed to be saying to your client, you know. [Nathan]: Wouldn't this be an interesting industry change if you had to have some intern or externship with so many transactions under your belt before you were to able to go out and represent a buyer or seller? [Chris]: That makes sense. That's what we do for new agents. They have to have six transactions under their belt before the training wheels come off. At a minimum. And for the first six transactions they're heavily mentored through them. So they're…they're not alone. They have people like their first deals they've got a mentor that's going out. And…and working with them. Teaching them how to do the consults for the buyers. And for the listing consult. So that by the time that agent gets ready to go out and be on their own, they generally have a great idea of what they're doing. [Christian]: Yeah well that's a great way to do it. I mean I love how you formalize that. Obviously that takes, you know, a brokerage's,  you know, certain amount of experienced agents and size. And, you know… [Chris]: Yeah I'll let you know when we get at that level too. [laughter] [Christian]: It is a structure. Because you could say technically the industry requires it. but, you know, when the laws basically says, you know, “Additional designated broker oversight for the first two years” like that's really loose. And it's not, you know, it's not really…there's not really a standard for that. Even though technically new agents are supposed to be more heavily monitored. There's no…there's nothing in place a, you know, firm to firm, insuring that happens. [Chris]: Yeah I mean there…I was talking to somebody the other day he was telling me about a person who's making a switch from another firm. And this person was also a recruiter. And he was like “Yeah this person brought about a hundred and forty people over to the brokerage. And about a hundred and twenty of them left.” And I'm like “What?!” Like I don't even want to turn that number. Like I'll bring ten and one will leave. Like I'm not gonna turn a hundred and forty people to get twenty.  It's just ridiculous the lack of oversight that some of these brokerages put into actual retention and training and development. It's literally taking the pickle, throwing it at the wall and seeing which one sticks. [Christian]: Sure. Well I mean and it's well-known, and I've been saying this for years. You know, like most firms, you know, most of the industry is just focus on numbers. Like all we want is people in the seats. Licensed agents, you know. We're not really concerned about retention and training and empowering because there's gonna be, you know, a dozen new agents with, you know, dollar signs in their eyes waiting to take their spots. You know, when…when they fail. [Nathan]: It will be like “Oh let's look at our checklist. You have a license. Check. You have a pulse. Check. Oh yeah good. You can…you can join us.” And uh, you know, I often get the question “Hey what…what led to your success as an agent?” I don't want to call myself successful but I do well. And I know what I'm doing now. And I think a huge part of it and I will I will tap the shoulder if you would of the team lead, Tim Reel [phonetics], that I had at Keller Williams when I started, is…is that I…part of it… Let me rephrase this. I viewed it as an internship. Right. I knew I was gonna pay a steep cut on my team splits. And KW split. But I also knew I was gonna get an education. And I wasn't standing alone. I wasn't by myself. And I was constantly getting feedback or more importantly I was getting mentorship. I think that's what a lot of people want. And…and that helped me. And then when I did want to go out and do my own thing and kind of stand on my own feet as a solo agent, I had the capability to do that. So, you know, that's always been my win at KW. Don't…you're not a technology company. You're a training company. KW gave me some great bones. You gave me a great foundation. So any agent that is potentially listening to this, that's struggling or is thinking about coming an agent, I would tell “You…you want to do well? Go be on a team. Go…go learn.” I don't…I don't, you know, that's just me.  [Christian]: And I say you're pretty fortunate because, you know, I've heard, you know, I've heard many things as far as, you know, people kind of getting on team. I mean KW is kind of what they're known for. You know. But it's a…it could be very hit and miss. Because, you know… [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I mean you could be, you know, you can be fortunate where the team lead is actually interested in mentoring and training, in empowering their team members. But I've also seen people that, you know, get on teams and all this is a call center. And they were promised “Hey we're gonna train you. We're gonna teach you this stuff.” And they're not learning anything except for making sales calls and scripts. You know, it could be very…very hit and miss, as far as the team structure goes and the attitude of the leadership. [Nathan]: Same as I tell a potential client. Interview realtors. I tell a potential realtor and if you have a lot of teams. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Interview teams. Interview brokers. Interview office staff. Interview whoever you can. I mean… [Nathan]: Interview your clients. You don't necessarily want all your clients that come to you.  [Chris]: No stay away from my clients. You're another agent. I don't want you talking to them. [laughter] [Christian]: Yeah I am gonna interview your clients. [Chris]: So…but this is…this brings us back to like a great point. Right. Because you've got three types of agents. You've got the full time agents. Right. These are the people that are in here all the time. These are the people that this is how we make a living. Then you have the part-time agents which I don't have an issue with part-time agents. Part-time agents they're putting in the hours. They may not be in at 40, 60, 80 hours a week. But they're in it 10, 20, 30 hours a week. And that's enough so that they generally understand what's happening in the industry. And they're able to build and maintain a client base and, you know, do a few deals every year. Then you've got the problem. The last type of agent it's the sometime agent. The agent that hangs their license. They're just a licensee. They're not in it full-time. They've got another job and they'll sell a house whenever their family member comes to them and says “Hey, you know, you're a real estate agent right?” “Yeah. Yeah I am.” And they're really not. And they…they don't fully understand what's going on. And when they take a deal that's when things go sideways. So I think the clarification is what kind of agent do you want to be? If you're…if you're coming into the industry are you going to be a sometime agent? Or are you gonna be a part-time agent? Because if you're…if you're just dipping your toe in the water and this is new for you, you have to be a part-time agent. If you're anything less than that you're never gonna learn enough to be successful. You know what? You know what? We can just steal from the Game of Thrones on that. Because, you know what we say, to us sometimes agent…not today. [Christian]: Not today.  [Nathan]: Not today. [Christian]: What I was gonna say so…so that's as we jumped into this, you guys are like “Hey let' talk about this thing.” “I don't know what you're talking about.” So…so we talked about licensee versus an agent that's [crosstalk]. That's what you mean? [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I got you. I think… [Nathan]: I think I've told the story once. I insulted a woman. She's…we were having a conversation. [Christian]: You insulted someone? No way. [Nathan]: Yes. And she said something like “Oh you're real estate agent?” And I said “Yeah.” And she said “Me too.” And I was like “Great. How many houses did you sell last year?” And she's like “Four.” And I was like “You're not an agent.” She got all upset. I was like…what…like…I don't know. [Christian]: You have a way with words Nathan.  [Nathan]: Like I mean it is what it is. I mean I…yeah that's right. But there needs to be so many changes in our industry. And, you know, again we can talk about the barrier and entry. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about two things on this episode, I guess. If we want to just get going and keep going.  [Chris]: Well let's keep going. [Christian]: But before we get away can I say something? [Nathan]: Go. Get away.  [Christian]: Get away. So to your point Chris about the licensee versus an agent and the three types of agents, and it's interesting. It seems like there's so many new agents that get into it just to be a licensee. It's basically like “Hey I can make, you know, a lot of money just, you know, accidentally selling a house now and then, to…to a friends.” So they're not invested in learning or building a career. They're kind of testing the waters. And memorably they fail and realize, you know, usually it's too late. “Hey this actually cost me a lot of money and I'm not really willing to put in the time. And real estate doesn't work”. You know. [Chris]: It's…it's like people come in here and, you know, you can go and get a real estate license and you can go and sell your own home and you can buy your next home and you can earn a commission. Great. Yeah it offsets your down payment.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you factor in that you do that once every ten years and it's…it's really not worth your time.  [Christian]: Right. Well I like your distinction between basically, you know, the part-time, who is still again with the time they have, they're investing and learning. Versus the “I'm just sitting here with my license doing other stuff until something comes my way. And then I flattened my way through it.” And because I think it's a big difference. I think a lot of people in the industry inflate the two.  Like I was having a conversation the other day with, you know, some agents from another indie brokerage here in town. And I love that brokerage but they're very…very high standards on who they'll accept. Like if three times a week there or you're gone. You know, you have certain production what are you gone. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: I think that's great but that means… [Chris]: I wish more brokers did that. [Christian]: But that means that they don't do part-time agents. And, you know, this particular agent I was talking to, was basically cuckooing part-time agents. I was like listen “The people that can do it full-time like you you're basically taking it elitist stance, because people have kids or they have other jobs or, you know, it's just not the priority in life to spend 80 hours a week trying to make real estate work.” And I think there's room for that because just because you're part time doesn't necessarily mean you're inept. Or, you know, don't know how to do real estate. It just made you're focusing on other things. You know. [Chris]: Wait really? Because I thought whatever my preconceived notions were, we're correct. [Christian]: But I'm saying I think there's a difference. Because part time agents can invest in their training and knowledge and experience just as much as a full time. But that's a lot different than someone who just is seating on the sidelines waiting for real estate to come to them. [Chris]: As long as they're putting in the hours. And…and it's actually interesting that you bring that up. Because there was a study done by a university talking about entrepreneurship and going and creating your own self-employed income. And the success rates. And somebody who does it part-time at first, believe it or not has a thirty percent greater chance of success rate, long term. Than somebody who just dives in off the deep end full-time. So you can have somebody who's coming in part-time 20 hours a week and as long as they're working those 20 hours there's a greater chance of success that that person is going to be a long-term successful real estate agent. Then somebody who comes in off the bat, full time and has one way to go. [Christian]: What…it's interesting. Is that because they're runways longer because they have a supplemental income. Or something as opposed to… [Chris]: Yeah. The caveat with this is that those people are actually putting in the work. Right. They're working 20, 30 hours a week.  [Christian]: Sure. Right. They're not sitting around at their home office watching Netflix and occasionally making a call or something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Well I mean aren't there plenty of full-time agents who work a lot of part-time hours? [Christian]: That's true. That's a good distinction. They usually don't make it either. [laughter] [Nathan]: I mean I know plenty of full-time agent, who I mean it's like “[censored] if you're full-time than you suck.” [laughter] I mean it's because you look at their sales history. Like great you sold six houses last year. But you're full-time. And then there's the part-time agent who sells twenty five a year. Right. So… [Christian]: Again that comes down to your hustle and your focus. Because I've seen full-time agent that, you know, that are there full-time, but they're mentally…they're all over the place. [Nathan]: Yeah right. So I, you know, I don't like to get into this, you know, “O you're full-time, part-time.” Again sales cure is all, where I come from. And if you have a history you have a history. That's what I…that's what I like to look at is, you know, it's what matters. If somebody says “Well I'm a full-time agent.” Well great you'd be a full-time agent with [censored] sales. Right. I mean that's easy. And so I'd rather say Hey you're an agent with a great history.” That…to me is important. That's where we can delineate the that whole thing.  Is…let's not get into full-time, part-time. Yeah, the sometime, I don't want to get around. But let's just get into “Hey what did you…” I tell them “What did you sell?” Ask them what did they sell last year. What they do. Which may be and, you know, part of this I wanted to ask in this kind of segues into the other side of this, is does area specialization in a normal market, like where I'm at, in Columbus, does that matter anymore due to the amount of data that is available? My argument would be “No it doesn't matter.” [Chris]: I would argue you, against that.  [Nathan]: I figured you would. Yeah Christian too. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Nathan]: But that's just me. So… [Chris]: And I think it comes down to the level of service that somebody wants to bring. If…if you have like three agents going up against one neighborhood, and one agent knows everything about the neighborhood, all the history. Everything that has taken place there. Everything that's going in. All the development that…that's happening. Then that agent can sell not only the house but also the story.  And if you could sell the story, you know, that…that's the best way to market right now. Whereas if you have two other agents that don't know that info, then they're just…they're either competing on price or they're competing on marketing ability. [Nathan]: All right go back in there. There's an agent you left out of this. What about the agent that has the capability to use their commission as leverage on a deal? That's not in the area. [Christian]: I mean I think it… [Chris]: Where would he use that laverage? [Nathan]: Towards closing costs. Say…saying…because in our market you can do that. Right. Say…say I specialize in Dublin. Right. Ohio. But I want to go to…I got a client who want…your potential client who's interested in buying in New Albany, that yeah I've done deals over there. But I'm competing against a New Albany realtor. And…and I can offer…say Christian's my buyer. I can incentivize him to use me because I can say “Hey you're gonna buy $500,000 home. You know what I'll do? I'll take three thousand dollars on my commission and credit that to you towards closing cost and pre-paids and closing cost.” Now in a competitive market I'm gonna choose the agent that's got leeway to give me something. Or that could bridge appraisal, help with closing cost or something like that. Over somebody who says “Oh I specialize in an area.” That's just me and my train of thought. [Christian]: I mean the specializing in an area, I…I'd say the value really depends on which side you're on. Like…like when I'm on the listing side I think it like I specialize in West Seattle. But I do other areas of Seattle in the suburbs. Like I remember specifically like I helped a military friend of mine sell this place and well the suburbs here.  Now I didn't…I've never sold a house in that area. And so one of the questions I had to ask is like “Hey tell me about your neighborhood.” Like “There's a main…there's a main road going through here. Our house is on this side of it. A lot different than this side.” Because I can look at the numbers all day long but as the stats don't tell me, you know, why people move to this area. Or what the demographics are. Or who the ideal buyer is gonna be.  You know, so you've got to do a lot more digging and you actually know the area for that. And on the buyer side I don't think that's as important. I mean it can be. You can leverage it. but, you know, you're not really…I think it's more important on the seller side. Because you're gonna use that information, that knowledge of the neighborhood to target that ideal buyer.  [Chris]: And I think… [Christian]: What to focus on. [Chris]: Yeah and Nate to your point, I think you're you're kind of comparing apples to oranges right now. Because you're…you're talking about two completely different value propositions. That the agents can base on. And, you know, all of them work. Right. There's a million different value propositions on how you can build your business. Whether you specialize in historic or new construction or this one area or whatever it might be. Or you…you leverage some of your commission income to incentivize, you know, the client base.  You know, you can pay. It's one way or another. If you want to take some of your commission and do that on the back end through a rebate, you know, who am I to judge? All of them work. They're all different business models. And I don't call one discount versus one traditional. They're just different business models. It just depends on what's right for the individual agent. And what's right for the individual agent has to line up with the broker that they're with. Because not all brokers will allow their agents to do a commission rebate. Or to donate some towards closing costs. Whatever that might be. But it has to…like they all work. Like one agent may have a value proposition. And their proposition may be “I know everything about this area. Use me because I'm gonna make sure you're fully informed.” And then another agent may say “Well we're not as familiar with the area but we'll make sure that you have this financial instead of…” And then it's just up to the buyer. Right. The buyer may want money or they we may want their choice to be 100%. So it can go either way. [Christian]: And I'd say I mean you can't you can kind of think about in terms of like your commission is one of the terms of the contract. And so it's something that you could leverage just like you can any other terms, you know. That's something that you directly have control over versus, you know, the buyer. But, you know, options. [Nathan]: Right. Just curious. I mean you see it often. I mean…and I've done it. but, you know, we'll waive appraisal. And, you know, I will use my commission as a bridge in case that commits…that appraisal comes in short. And I've had plenty of times. It never has. We've been fine. I've had times where it comes in short and hey that's fine too. Again it's…it's as much for the seller when I represent a buyer to offer, you know, to say “Hey I'm willing to use my commission as a bridge in case it doesn't.” Because then they know they'll, you know, they'll get that money. So… [Chris]: I think that that's something to be careful about. So you're… you're very well versed in that Nate. But for your average agent, like if they're going into putting their livelihood on the line, like they got…they're gambling on themselves. [Nathan]: Yeah they are. [Chris]: And…and that's what you're doing. And you're good. And I would probably gamble on myself if I had to take the bet. [Nathan]: I like it. [Chris]: But I think that there's a lot of agents that for general advice…Don't do that well.  [Nathan]: Yes. You also…you got to remember I am fair. I keep 100% of my commission. Truly 100%. Right. So, you know, I don't have a split. So you got to think on a normal agents, say they're on a 60/40 split, you know, they're already taking a hit. Right. So they're potentially gonna take a bigger hit? Like, you know, they do have to be cautious. I…I have a little…I have a lot more leeway. Let's be honest. But… [Christian]: Sure. Not all the firms are going to support that. You know, so… [Nathan]: No they're not.  [Chris]: And you know as general…for our audience, as general advice I'm gonna say don't do that. Mainly because I don't know, you know, if I'm talking about the average agent, right. [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: They're not gonna be at that level to where, you know, I would feel comfortable just saying “Hey go out and put your commission on the line.” Because guess what? They do that. They say “I'll bridge the gap on an appraisal.” And the appraisal was four percent off instead of three. [Christian]: Well yeah… [Chris]: Now what's gonna happen? [Christian]: I mean you should always have…always have a cap, you know, as far as how far you'll go. You know, I mean I think in general, the principle I like. Because you're basically partnering with your clients, with skin the game. As opposed to you like “Hey, you know, here's all the terms. If it doesn't work out, well I'm fine. But you're gonna get [censored].”  [Nathan]: Well and my part in it is where I bridge part of the gap. My client will bridge part of the gap. But my commission will supersede their bridge. So but again what we're doing and like you said is, you know, kind of like in Top Gun. Right. You know, when you went fully inverted over the other plane and they're like this, you know. So that's the maneuver I pull. And I just haven't taken the picture yet. So…[laughter] [Chris]: International relations. [Nathan]: That's right. So anyway those are my two concerns or thoughts…would, over the last week. [Christian]: It's a creative way to do what you have to do, in a competitive market. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Chris]: Just make sure you run it by your broker. [Christian]: Always. [Chris]: And have your lawyers look at your language in your contract.  [Nathan]: Yeah you actually have to disclose that too, here. So… [Chris]: Yeah you do in Georgia also if you're doing that with the commission. The buyer has to pay tax on that too. [Nathan]: Really? [Chris]: Yeah. Otherwise you have to claim it. [Nathan]: Yeah that's true. [Chris]: Yeah. All right. Well I mean I think that was pretty good. So just recapping. If you're…if you're brand new in the industry, you know, you you're one of three people, you're a full-timer, a part-timer or some timer. Don't be a some timer. Because if you're a some timer, you're never gonna learn everything you need to know in order to be successful at this job.  And then, you know, figure out how you want to build your business. Right. You can…you could do a bit model like Nathan and use your commissioners leverage as long as you do it right. Or you can be the expert in your field. Know everything about everyone.  And everything that's going on in your neighborhood. And make sure that you're the source of information. Either way the business models work. Pick what's right for you. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next Monday. [Nathan]: Peace. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode In today's episode Chris and Christian briefly discuss their thoughts on home automation and smart technology. Let us know what smart technology you prefer in the comments! Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 13:51 RTRE 56 –  Where's Tech Going? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris. My man Nate is again out selling homes so he can't be with us here today. But we do want to make sure you're here with us getting the re:Think Real Estate treatment every Monday. So thanks for tuning in. Christian what is going on my man? [Christian]: Hi, I was just thinking about the future of the business and stuff and things and… [Chris]: Yeah what do you think… [Christian]: Things I am not doing because… [Chris]: What do you think it will be like in the future? Take a wild guess. [Christian]: Well I mean I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, positioning that kind of stuff. [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: You know about 10 years ago podcasting was the new rage. You know it seems like real estate is finally as an industry is catching on to maybe podcasting as a viable medium. We have… [Chris]: Viable I don't know. It is a medium.  [Christian]: Viable like I mean the interwebs [phonetics]. It is not going anywhere. It might be here to stay. [Chris]: Yeah it is here to stay. [Christian]: Yeah you know I have been doing my own podcast for almost 3 years now and I felt like when I started that I was kind of like behind the curb. But I was just kind of thinking you know kind of the newer trends, and I think that there is a big…there is gonna a big push maybe or you know the masses are gonna start adopting kind of the smart homes stuff as opposed to just…I think previously it has been just kind of the more tech savvy people coming out of the fringes.  But I think with Alexa and Echos and Google homes and stuff become more popular as I think that audio content is gonna start becoming you know audio first content is gonna start becoming huge you know. I mean video is just so great but the problem with videos is you've gotta be dedicated to watching that video. And it is the only thing you can do. While audio podcasts are all flash briefing all that stuff that you can be doing something else. You could be driving a car or in your home you can be working. So I think it can be more…as our attention it continues to be demanded in multiple directions so it is gonna be more of a push in adoption for audio first stuff. [Chris]: Like audiobooks right?  [Christian]: What is that? [Chris]: It is like audio books. You just…The way our cars work now with the Bluetooth the moment you get out of the car it pauses, when you get back into the car it keeps going. You know, and you can be driving down the road of in your office and it just the continuity it stops and goes and keeps going and you are able to just load more content while you are doing other thing.  [Christian]: Yeap, exactly you know I was thinking about how this relate to real estate. You know how with the help of an agent or brokerage. And I think it is you know it could be another piece of the content marketing, positioning piece. You know, for me I have been thinking like OK you know I want to start like an Alexa flash briefing, right.  You know those are basically mini 1 to 2 minute…think of them as mini podcast and so you know if you have Alexa at home or Echo you could say…you could enable these skills and say you know, “Alexa play…play my flash briefings for the day”. And what would be a set up 1 minute Gary V sample and then you know social marketing with Chelsey Pites [phonetics] you know or whoever you subscribe to it will give you the little 1 minute blur you know. And the thing that is different about them is that you can't go back. It is kind of like it is today and that is it.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So it is very try and forget but I am thinking like if this starts becoming the norm, the thing, you know if people start going to their Alexa for “Hey Alexa what is the weather, what is the traffic, what is the housing market doing?”. You know like there is gonna be more and more skills built out you know by brokerages, by industry leaders, by marketers you know, all that kind of stuff.  So how can you get in front of that? Because right now there is not very much in the real estate space. You know the couple I know about gear towards the real estate agents, geared towards the industry not towards consumers. So what would that look like? You know. [Chris]: So I am not too familiar with like Alexa and Google Home. And all that because frankly I don't want anybody listening to me and I don't need more tech for my kids to interact with right now. [Christian]: But they are already listening. [Chris]: I know I know. [Christian]: Here. Everything [laughter]. [Chris]: Yeah well so probably. But…so we haven't gone on board with the smart home yet. Our home is dump. It was built in the 70s. It is as dump as dump can be. But I did see an article the other day about some technology that is gonna become an outleap next year. OK so mid to late 2020 and we have a ton of cool things on the horizon.  So, Apple is gonna come out with their glasses. And I saw a report on this. And the things are super lightweight and I can just imagine right in 5 or 10 years you are driving down the street or you are in a showing, and you've got your real estate app on your phone and as you walk through the house it is giving you all the details about every room. It is giving you all the updates. You are driving down the street and there is a house for sale and just in your glasses, on your display it is telling you all the price, the bath and bed features, you know.  That is gonna be the world that we live in in a few years. It's…we're not far away from it and you know technology is exponentially increasing. That is not slowing down anytime soon. So like it's gonna be crazy where this all goes. I don't know about Alexa and all that. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you're probably right, pretty soon I am sure I will probably have one too.  [Christian]: Yeah well possibly I mean you know, it is hard to tell where the trend is gonna go. Because you know, Google has their glass and that was a major flop. Now maybe it was just ahead of it's time and people weren't ready for it. Maybe it is a platform issue you know, whatever, but yeah we will see. I mean I am definitely seeing the audio…audio first medium catching traction with masses. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: It is not nearly as rare as the people have you know Google Home or an Echo. [Chris]: Well if you are listening to this episode, tell your friends to listen to this too because podcasts are cool y'all. [Christian]: Yeah and so initially…so my journey into the smart homes started with the Google Home. Right. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because I think its…we bought a new house and we bought a Nest. And when I bought it had like a have and for 20 bucks you could get to buy a Google Home. You know medium or whatever I am not sure.  [Chris]: Yeah why not. [Christian]: And I was thinking “Hey you know Google versus Amazon of course the Google one is gonna be able to do way more”. But it doesn't. Like it's kind of weak. So…But you know as I experimented with the Alexa app which you can actually download for your phone and essentially you know use the same…the exact same commands and just integrate with your house, I started enabling skills and messing around with that.  And I am like “OK well this is cool”. And so I bought one of the nicer Echos because it has a better speaker because I didn't realize…well the big thing is it is able to like “Hey play jazz music or … you know whatever and it will start playing you know a Spotify channel or you know if it is Google it will play Google play or you know an Echo it will play your Amazon music.  And so you essentially have you know these diverse play list at your fingertips and so I wanted a decent sounding stereo and like the Sonos are actually integrated with the…with the Alexa platform.  [Chris]: The Sonos speaker? [Christian]: Yes. So there are some cool options out there but like that's what we use it for a lot but once you start getting like smart plugs and a Nest of [inaudible] stuff you can set up essentially you know, I don't know, work flows or what do they call it. Something different on the platform. But to say you know, “Alexa good morning and do you have a turn on your lights and start a soft jazz music and turn your heat up” or you know whatever you program it to do. You know. Now we could just make the argument “Hey we are getting lazy”.  But I think the future is going in that direction where I think the people are having to pull out their phones or their watches and like touch the screen is gonna become antiquated and too much of a pain. And they much really just be able to say “Hey do this thing” and have an app launch or have a series of functions happen. So for… [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: So for real estate I think there is some huge, huge… [Chris]: And it is kind of cool. Like “Amazon prepare my house for a showing” and then everything kicks on.. the oil diffuser starts making it smell like cookies. The lighting dims, the music is playing. Like that would be a pretty cool Alexa app. [Christian]: Well yeah I mean and that is if you have a smart phone. It is easy I mean. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Set the workflow for this trigger starts playing this music station and let them. I think for real estate you know my point in this is I think it is starting to get beyond novelty to practical and mainstream. And I think the real estates… [Chris]: And it is inexpensive enough to do that now. [Christian]: Right exactly I mean there are nicer…I think the…I think the Echo starts at 40 bucks and the one I have has a decent speaker and it is like 110. You know like you spend hundreds on the Sonos but you know if you want a rocking audio system but…I think for real estate there is opportunities for things like flash briefings and different things that would put you as a leader in technology in providing value and giving up to the community.  You know it is just…And you could repurpose it from a Facebook live or Instagram live. Cut out the audio and there is your daily or weekly briefing or whatever, you know. So there is definitely ways to leverage content you are already creating for these new platforms to continue building your brand.  [Chris]: Sounds good. I will have to get on that Alexa new wagon. I am not there yet. We'll give it time. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I mean the only thing…[crosstalk]. Unfortunately you know my crystal ball is broken. [Christian]: Yeah is that why you are not rich?  [Chris]: Yeah it is one of those things you know where most predictions never come true but now it is like we are watching this app and… [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: There is definitely something that happens over the next few years. And… [Christian]: Well right and I think the biggest challenge right now with where technology is, is lack of integration. Because you know Google has a proprietor thing. Amazon has theirs you know… [Chris]: They are gonna talk to each other. [Christian]: You know they're different IOT…internet…internet of things. You know I don't think there is a standard protocol so you will have to get stuff that is compatible otherwise you have 2 or  different systems that are smart separately but they don't integrate. Well that is more of a pain than it is worthy. You know. [Chris]: Yeah or you find some manufacturer that makes 2 versions. One that integrates with Alexa and one that integrates with Google. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: Pain in the butt. Well I mean it all makes sense. It is gonna be interesting to where this all goes. But I will be interested to see in a few years if you are not right, and that audio and flash briefings become a more important thing in real estate.  [Christian]: Well I am interested to hear what our listeners think. You know leave comment as in  the future how they are using this kind of leading edge technology whether that is audio or you know VR or AR you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Send us a message. Contact us. Hit the form on the website rtrepodcast.com. Christian if you are right on this than maybe in the near future we need to step in some flash briefings together for the re:Think podcast.  [Christian]: Sounds good and you owe me a drink. [Chris]: Argh always. Get yourself over to Georgia and trust me drinks are on the house.  [Christian]: Alright. [Chris]: Alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

On this weeks episode of reThink Real Estate, we discuss ways to clear your mind and focus on your business. There are hundreds of headlines vying for our attention which serve as little more than a distraction to our businesses. We discuss our thoughts on what to pay attention to and what to ignore so that our businesses don't suffer. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 14:41 RTRE 55 –  Pay Attention to What Matters in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris here with Christian. Nate can't join us today. He is too busy selling homes. What is going on Christian? [Christian]: Not much just running into the office after frantically dropping off my son at school and yeah trying to stay cool. What are we gonna talk about today? [Chris]: What is going on in real estate. There is some headlines out on Inman. Open Door picks up another 300 million dollars at a reported 3.8 billion dollar evaluation. Caldwell [phonetics] does some rebranding and agents how to become influencers.  [Christian]: Yeah I was really enjoying the comment section of the Caldwell [phonetics] branding. That is always gold you know seeing what people decide to what hill they decide to dive on [inaudible] [laughter] with rebranding and the broker decided to… [Chris]: Well brokerage that are not at and even agents…Everybody has an opinion and everybody wants to voice their opinion in trivial [censored]. I mean remember with NAR. NAR changed the logo last year. And it threw up such a sting that they changed it back.  [Christian]: Did they change it back? I didn't notice. [Chris]: Oh yeah yeah they…So… [Christian]: 100.000 down the drain. [Chris]: So they did a boxed R. The cube with the R on it. And then it threw such a sting that they got rid of it. They spend like 300 million dollars for some astronomical…  [Christian]: It was like 300.000. [Chris]: Yeah it was a lot of money. [Christian]: That's a lot of money for yeah, changing one R into a different type of R so… [Chris]: Yeah and then everybody hated it so… [Christian]: People do. It's funny as we're kind of going over the headlines of what is happening. What is getting all the buzz in real estate. You brought up a good point that all this stuff probably has nothing to do with my business or your business or any agents actually doing business. It's all distractions and shiny objects.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean for a…it gives people an excuse to not focus on doing what they need to do which is sell real estate. Or train their agents to sell real estate if you're a broker. You know it's like watching the local news right? It takes up a lot of time, but what is the same news every single day? Somebody died, somebody got robbed, something broke in the city and somebody is doing something crazy for consumers.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: That is the same news every single day and people spend hours of their day, in the morning and the evening paying attention to that [censored]. [Christian]: Right. Well it is funny too I mean you know kind of running with that example. Because what we're talking about here is information, right? We're talking about our awareness of our world around us or what we considered the world around us. It is interesting if you do a little like kind of historic reading of like how technology changes, how we interact with each other and with technology you know like the value of information has changed from 100 plus years ago where the value was largely isolated to your local community. And it only had value if applied to your life directly. You know if like “What is the rainfall gonna be so I know what my crops are gonna be this year”. That's is what mattered. Nowadays most information is human neutral stories. Which means 99% of it has absolutely no bearing on your life whatsoever. [Chris]: What did…What did Breaderman [phonetics] write about today? And usually when he writes something it is pretty good. But you know like what is Zillow announcing. What evaluation is iBuyers gonna have now? And it all is… [Christian]: Sure in 10 years 60% of the market is gonna be iBuyers. So…That may or may not be true but what to do with my business today you know like some of that stuff can inform but by in large nothing comes of it and it doesn't really affect your stuff. Like you know so the question really becomes why do we get so easily distracted, wrapped around excel about stuff that doesn't help our clients or doesn't get us more business or doesn't grow our brokerage. It is just distractions… [Chris]: People need something to talk about. [Christian]: You mean today. Right. [Chris]: It gives people something to talk about at the water cooler. “Oh what about this? What about that?” But you know what, the water cooler doesn't make you money? Does it?  [Christian]: Yeah but you know it gives you that dopamine to be upset about something. Or enraged about something or worried. [Chris]: It allows people to feel about things that aren't important. [Christian]: Yeah. And I wouldn't say like these things aren't irrelevant. Necessary. But by in large it might affect things years down the road. But again you know it's energy. It's…You know you've got  a limited emotional and mental energy and response so much of it on Facebook or on this you know kind of what's the big distractor and whatever else.  As opposed to building something, doing our business, staying in our lane. Doing our thing. You know like when I was at a larger franchise yeah there is people shuffling around doing transactions but mostly it was people sitting around [censored] about other people's business or “Have you seen what that person is doing or that person is like”. What does that have to do with you? Like mind your own business you know.  [Chris]: “I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer…[crosstalk]. I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer”. “Really?” Yeah I mean think like that that those permeate offices and corrupt culture. And you know from a macro level it is important to understand where the industry is going. So that you know how to kind of steer and navigate the industry with your business. But for the most part every other day when you see a new evaluation all you need to know is venture capital funds are putting money at high buyers. That's it.  [Christian]: True. Yeah. Well for the average agent like you know if Compass is growing in a market or Open Door has you know some hundreds of million dollar you know the funding you know round fund how does that affect your business? You know maybe if your brokerage is thinking about the future and how you want to structure your business it could you know just looking at trends but I mean I think a lot of it comes back to you know, we've got limited time and resources. Why are we spending it on these things that don't directly impact us? [Chris]: It's easy. Because it is easy to talk about that. And it is harder to go in and put the work into growing our business and to talk about that. It's not…It's not cool to talk about the work that people don't want to do or that aren't doing. [Christian]: Trust me… [Chris]: And when you're at the water cooler and you're sitting there talking about “Oh I just made this call and that call” and people are like “Eh” and they clam up and they're crossing their arms because they don't talk about that because they're not making their calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They're not out there prospecting. They're not talking about you know, the next best thing in growing their business. For a couple of reasons. So there is the idea of competition selling a lot of offices. They don't come up at their training and their culture from an abundant perspective. They think everybody is competing against one another and therefore they don't share ideas. And then you know the other side of that is they don't know what the [censored] they're doing. So they… [Christian]: I mean I think part of that…That is practically true but I think the other side of it is most agents know what they need to be doing but they're not willing to do it. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: You know and so it comes down to why do so many agents hate being real estate agents [laughter]. You know they're not willing to like do the work. You know and thinking about this from a brokerage perspective, you know like I have had to think about whether the different models we could have. How much do we provide? Do we provide leads? Do we just provide systems? Do we provide nothing? You know and we try to do like this middle road of competitive commission split with the essential tools to help them be successful with serving their clients. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But you know than there are some models that like provide you know leads and this and that. You know initially that is like “OK well that would be great if we got to a point when there is like abundance of incoming you know business that we could refer at those leads or whatever”. But at the end of the day if a brokerage is providing all that to their agents than what the hell do you need agents for if they're not…I mean what is their job if they can't even provide their own business? [Chris]: A brokerage at that point becomes a big team.  [Christian]: Right because essentially I mean that is what you're doing if you're providing leads. You're doing everything for that agent. They're just sitting there you know. [Chris]: Wrapped up and happy. [Christian]: Yeah they get it handed to them. It's like I mean the point of brining that up is you know what is the role of an agent if they're not willing to like do anything. If they're not willing to provide their own business, grow their business. Find new clients. You know than there can be a lot of different ways. That's not just I mean your classic cold call meeting. I mean you can do so many different things. But the point of it is you have to be doing certain actions everyday to move that ball forward. [Chris]: Oh yeah.  [Christian]: If they're not sure how to spend their time talking about the thread of Open Door or Compass or the NAR or Lumion [phonetics] Legal Battle or how that may change the industry like yeah that is interesting but it's not gonna help you in your business today, you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I think that you hit it right on the money. If it is not gonna help you in your business today I don't think you need to be paying that much attention to it. Get back. Put the horse blinders on. Look down. One step in front of the other. And you know what a lot of agents don't do is they don't go out and try new things. They will just sit there and look at what other people are doing but they don't actually go out and try something on their own. [Christian]: Well they'll poop on it. They're gonna be like “Oh that is the stupidest thing ever. Until it starts working and they try to copy it. [Chris]: There was a…there was a video that I saw going around and you know gets mixed reactions. There is an agent. Erica Gotiwolf [phonetics] she did a home tour where her entire body was blurred out and looked like she was naked. I am sure she wasn't but she well picture it was naked doing a naked home tour.  A couple of days having that video out, property is under contract. She has 5 listing appointments and 2 referrals. There was a lot of negative feedback on that video but you know what half of the people really thought she was ballsy for doing it. And she got additional business out of it. You know I shared that example with my agents this morning. And low and behold they you know I think a light clicked and they started realizing you know what not everybody has to love what I am gonna do in order to be successful at this. So… [Christian]: Well and the reality is if you're doing something different or better you're probably getting negative feedback than positive. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: And you just have to…You have to know that the people who you know the haters are people who are gonna be stuck in mud and go and hate anything that is new. Don't worry about them. You know if you're doing you know Sutton you know naked home tours, if the goal is to get more eyes in that listing for your client, that is affective. You know you called the stick or, you know, whatever but it was effective and aligned her wish people who likes the outside of the box marketing ideas so got her more business for her ideal client base. Who cares what people who don't understand that think. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think the whole point of this episode is don't pay attention to everything that is in the headlines in real estate because it is going to distract you everyday. It's all the same stuff. Somebody has gotten more of an evaluation. Somebody is telling you how you can become an influencer. Somebody is saying that this company did something else. Focus on your business and just the how…if you pay enough attention to the headlines you don't understand where the industry is going. Don't worry about all the shiny objects. [Christian]: I mean at the end of the day I wanna say…You know I don't want to say “Don't pay attention to this stuff” but just be intentional about how much time you're spending. I mean I know like people who are really intentional and really killing it on social media they're not doing it that way because they're on social media all day but they're doing it because “This half hour is dedicated to me building my social media” and they don't touch it the rest of the day. So they're actually productive. Do the same thing with these headlines. “OK here is my half hour to read the most sensational headlines and then move on to my day”.  [Chris]: All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. Stick with us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Make sure you sign up for our newsletter so you get notified every time a new episode drops. Thank you so much for tuning in and please make sure that you give us a 5-start review on iTunes. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode It's easy to for some agents to get along well with their peers. For others, not so much. Tune in today as we discuss the skills necessary to be a pro that other pros want to be around. Here are the secrets to playing nice in the sandbox. The rules are simple. Play nice in the sand box. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 31:05 RTRE 36 –  Erica Ramus on Promoting Women Leaders [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hi everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am your host Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White, Christian Harris. Guys how are you? [Christian]: Hey. [Nathan]: Hey, I am fantastic and beautiful. [Chris]: Hey Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: I knew that was coming why didn't I [inaudible] [laughter]. The think about my CRM. I am embarrassed. I swear people it is happening. It is going to get out of my head and… [Christian]: We do know you swear a lot. [Chris]: Yeah you do swear a lot. [Nathan]: Yes I am going like…Man it's gonna be bad. It's gonna be bad in my office. I am gonna have to shut the door. There is going to be a lot of curse words probably. Probably. But you know I drink a lot of caffeine and I swear a lot people, if you don't know. So yeah we're getting there. It is process right. So I should…The episode after this hands down I will give you some feedback. [Chris]: It's OK. We're gonna keep your feet to the fire. [Christian]: Focus that caffeine and rage to getting your CRM up and running. [Chris]: Definitely. So.. [Nathan]: Yeah I am going to. [Chris]: For everybody tuning in if you get a chance, if you haven't already. Go to and check out our website and our new newsletter at rtrepodcast.com. If you go there, you can click on the little box. Type in your name and email address and every week when we launch a new episode you will be notified. So this week we have an amazing guest. Her name is Erica Ramus. She is the broker owner and magic maker at Ramus Realty. Erica welcome. [Erica]: Thanks guys. [Chris]: It's great to have you on. For our agents who are not in your neck of the woods, why don't you tell us a bit about you and your company? [Erica]: Sure. I am the broker of a small independent boutique company in rural Pennsylvania. I run the middle of the North East. And so most of the cities around. I am very, very wear off. And we have less than 10 agents. I have 8 agents and me and an apprentice in the office. And while we are small in boutique we are mighty. So, we have only 8 people in the office but we have 13% market share.  [Chris]: What? [Erica]: Yeah. The largest companies in the area have 15, 20 and 80 agents. And consistently we have…typically we have…I checked yesterday. We have 40 sites pending currently. And the biggest company has 75.  [Chris]: Wow. That is incredible. [Erica]: So highly productive.  [Chris]: Very highly productive. So when we first met it was…You know it feels like this entire podcast is right around the Inman crowd because Erica and I we met out at Inman. Christian was there also when we were doing the…feeding the homeless. Before the conference started and we were at the same panel about being a broker and non-producing.  So you operate your brokerage a little bit different than I do. Which is you know I am the trainer right I don't go and do really anything. I hope people build their own careers. Tell us a little bit about how your office is run. How are…how are you able to obtain 13% market share with only 8 agents under you? [Erica]: I think of my office as running almost like a super team.  [Chris]: OK. [Erica]: So my name is on the door and before I was in real estate I was a magazine publisher. And I had multiple magazines which…one was a local scoop living magazine. So you probably have Atlanta Life or Atlanta Living or Seattle Living. Something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. [Erica]: So I started that and everybody in town knew me. I was the magazine lady. I was selling ads. And hawking my magazine. And than I got into real estate so when I got in I was almost an immediate success because everybody already knew my face. And I used the magazine to my benefit as well. All of my houses of course were advertised in my own magazine. [Chris]: Nice. [Erica]: So it as a great jump-start. But I built a team under me. I very quickly realized that I couldn't service the leads that were coming in. And so than I left to go out on my own. I built a team up of people who just honestly want to be fed. I produce the leads. I state myself as the reign maker ruler. I do all the marketing on the back end. My face is on almost everything.  And when we're agent advertising my name is on the door so I have very strict control over quality. I do all the marketing and produce all the materials myself. The leads come in, the get filtered through the agents and than I am to deal with after  in the background if something goes wrong. But that is my role. I see it as feeding the agents and making sure that everybody is happy and productive.  [Chris]: And recently you were telling me I think a couple of months ago that you started doing a lot more travel recently and talking and really try moving into more a leadership role within the industry right? [Erica]: yep. So I have always written. Obviously magazine writing was my background and blogging. And so I have always written articles and so I am speaking locally. But recently in the past 2, 3 years I started taking up national speaking engagements. I spoke at Better Homes and Gardens about 2 years ago at their last region event. And Inman and National…NAR. And so my inner circuit.  [Chris]: I am impressed.  [Christian]: Awkward pause OK. [Chris]: Awkward pause.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: There we go. Alright there we go. So…So you…Inman, Better Homes and Gardens, NAR. Now you're on one of the committees with NAR too right? [Erica]: Yep. Next year I am on the research and development committee. This past 2 years I have been on the housing opportunity committee. I have dome some professional development so… [Chris]: That's fantastic. So the reason I am bringing this up is because there has been a lot of talk. And a lot of focus on women leaders within our industry. Because let's face it, Christian, Nate and I are the majority. I am sorry we're the minority in real estate. This industry is almost 60% female and the leadership is skewed the other direction.  So tell us what it is like to be not only a broker owner as a female because that is something we will never know but also to be putting yourself out there in the leadership role as a speaker and travelling across the US to talk about helping other women to step into a leadership role and grow their business also. [Erica]: That is something I have always been passionate about, it is owning my own business. I started my own businesses from scratch. When I was in my early 20s. And it was the magazine business. I was not content about just being the editor or publisher. I wanted to own the magazine. And I did. So I have always been an entrepreneur.  And once I started in real estate I knew very quickly I either wanted an ownership role in my company or I was gonna start my own. So to me it was never a question of why would I try or why would I do it. I question all the time why ever women don't step out into leadership roles. And why they don't start their own brokerages. A lot of women seem to express that they're unhappy where they are. And they search for other brokers. When I was unhappy I just started my own company.  So…But I think it is something that is inside of you. It is innate. And a lot of women I believe are afraid to take the chance. It was a huge risk when I went out on my own and I had a young son and my husband but who totally supports me and everything I do. All my crazy ideas. But you know why don't women say “I want to make a change”? And instead of jumping from broker to broker “I want t start my own company” or “I want to be a manager in the firm”.  But almost all the managers and owners in my area they're all men. So…Local especially when the kids are young and if you have children you can relate. I know you have children and I know Christian and Chris you both have young children. But I didn't have a husband at home taking care of the kids. And he works too so that was challenge and that is probably why I didn't travel and didn't do a lot of speaking. Occasionally I would travel but I didn't do the NAR stuff. I didn't do the contract until the kids were out of the house and it was much easier. Now I just have to worry about the dog. [Christian]: So Erica being the reign maker at your office you mentioned kind of matching leads and giving hose out and kind of working all the back end stuff and being very involved with the transactions. What is your means of acquiring that new business. Do you kind of do the traditional you buy them or are you just a known entity that you actually got a lot of community coming to you? When they have real estate needs? [Erica]: WE do both because while I certainly have enough organic coming into the site…The site is…I don't know 15 years old basically. We get great Google traffic on our own but we also do buy some leads. So specifically we have about 35% of our closing will be repeat referral business. Out at a given point and the remainder are just walk-in office street. We have a very prominent location on a busy highway corner. And we also have a little bit of Zillow paid. Not much. We actually cut that back significantly. But Zillow pushes a lot of Facebook ads. And we get great leads just from Facebook and also some Google paid.  [Chris]: Has there ever been anything that has happened to you that you think would discourage another woman agent from becoming their own business owner or stepping up into a leadership role either on NAR or on a national speaking arrangement? [Erica]: I think there still is a disconnect between strong women and the belief that strong women versus a strong man in negotiating or even running a company, the woman is not necessarily respected as much as the man. I just…I still see that. And I believe that a man who is negotiating a problem on a deal who is a broker and if he is perceived as being strong is not necessarily being perceived as difficult. He is just being a strong businessman and negotiating or advocating for his client.  Whereas women when we step up to the table and argue on behalf of our client or try to push something through that is strong in our belief we're seen in a negative light as opposed to a positive right. And I haven't necessarily seen this happen on a national level. Every meeting and committee that I have been involved with in the state national has been very respectful. But I see it locally. Most of the brokers around me are all men The managers are men and there is definitely still the stigma against the strong women.  [Chris]: In your office what is the breakdown on demographic, men versus women that are working with you? [Erica]: I have one fantastic man [laughter]. [Chris]: One fantastic man so you have 7 agents working for you that are… [Erica]: All women.  [Chris]: All female. So…Christian and I are running our own office. We each have our own company and obviously we do not fully understand the female experience. If we wanted to create an environment that is conductive for females to come in and be successful and grow their business, what should we do as male brokers in an industry that is 60% female? [Erica]: I would say bring them along with you. Bring them up and along. Bring them to meetings. Bring them if you're going to say chambers of commerce function. Or local meetings. Board meetings. Bring them with you and mentor them up. I think women have to be told that it is OK. It is OK to be strong. It is OK to get a babysitter some nights and go out to business functions. You don't have to be home every night with the kids. I… Women feel guilty about this. I know I did. Getting my broker's license I had to have my best friend at the house from 6 to 10 Thursday nights when I took my classes. And I felt terrible that they were in school all day with my friends rather than with me. But…You have to empower them and also listen to them. You should listen to. A lot of women get stepped on their voices get stepped on and they don't necessarily feel like they are heard.  In my office meetings for example the man in my office he's named Will. He is fantastic. He is very open to giving suggestions at our office meetings. His voice is very vocal. And I have watched some of the women step back a little bit when he speaks and I will pull them out of their shell and say “That is a great idea Will. What do you think about it Stephanie?” And pull them up so that they are not shrinking violets in the background. [Chris]: That's a…I think that is fantastic. we'll have to make sure that we are doing things like that because you know right now we…at least my office is predominantly female. So we try and create an environment where no ideas are really shunt. Right we want everybody to feel empowered that when they come into the office their ego is left at the door and everybody is here to either better themselves or better the people around them.  OK If they're not in the office for one of those 2 reasons they're not welcome because every…So we want that environment where people feel “Oh hey you know what everybody's voice is heard and everybody gets the same amount of focus form the office on how they can grow their business.” And I think one of the challenges being a male broker is that we just instinctively we yell at each other. I mean guys, that's what we do. [Erica]: Right. [Chris]: So when we sit in meeting we're gonna yell at each other. Politely but we're gonna basically be vocal. And what I have learnt is that a lot of women let that happen. They kind of step back so I really like that. That's one of the things that I am gonna have to work on. When I am in those meetings recognizing when they are kind of stepping back and binging them forward. That is great. Thank you Erica. [Erica]: What's the body language? And you know when someone has something to say but they're not gonna say it. And I pull them out of it and make them say it because I wanted them to know their voice is important to me.  [Christian]: Yeah I thing that is important as a leader whether male or female. You know people have different personality types and you know kind of as a type females in general tend to be not as aggressive. So…But you know I know that guys are like that too kind of pick them out like “Hey you know I see you haven't said anything during this meeting, what do you think about this” you  know and try to pull them back in. [Chris]: I think that is excellent advice. So take note brokers. Male brokers. This is what you gotta be doing because face it women are on the move and it's…They're the majority we're the minority, I am the user minority because I am not only a man, but I am a millennial. We make up 4% of the industry. So…It's important to pay attention to this stuff. Nate? [Nathan]: So to pick back on that Erica I always like to ask our guests questions that we have on the show. So the first one I would almost think maybe it would be applicable maybe I am wrong, but first question I want to ask you is how is failure and current failure set you up for later success? Question 2 is what are bad recommendations you hear in our profession and then the third one is if you can have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it what would it say? So go [laughter]. [Erica]: OK and the first question is easy. The biggest failure in my entire life was when I had the magazine. I bought the magazine from my prior boss. I got tired of doing all the work. That's what I thought. Doing all the work and not being the boss so I just bought them out. And I blamed the pregnancy on that one.  So I bought it without looking at the numbers without the advice of my attorney, my accountant and my husband. [laughter]. The trifecta and a couple of years later I…the whole industry changed. Destruction came in. The disruptors but we already hear them all the time in our industry. And domino started falling and I was 3 quarters of a million in debt. In this tiny little rural world and I somehow managed to start a second magazine which actually was successful but I learned huge, huge lessons in that first failure, like when you get a pay, pay roll, you don't use a discover card. You know or huge lessons that I never repeated again.  All having to do with my ego and the handling of overhead. Which leads me to number 2. So handling the overhead whether you're the broker or the agent. Everyday my agents come to me I feel with this great news scam. This great new product that somebody wants them to buy it too. “It's only 99 dollars a month. It's only 25 dollars a week. Only…It's only 100 dollars to put a business card up on our program.” You know over and over again. “It's only…It's only”.  And there are people who make lots of money selling products off the backs of agents who should not be spending that money. So, I warned my new agents “Please don't spend any money on any lead generators. I will make your leads for you. Just sit back and work the leads. And do not ever say it's only, because in January when you're adding up your taxes it's gonna be a huge number”. So that to me is one follows the other. Keep your overhead low. [Chris]: Shiny object syndrome.  [Erica]: Yeah the new shiny object thing. [Nathan]: Yeah we have talked about that before but that is a great recommendation. I mean awesome. Awesome recommendation.  [Chris]: “It's only gonna cost me my success”. [laughter] [Erica]: Yeah and than they say “You only need to sell one house”. If you only sell one house you can't pay off the thing. Now I don't want to hear that. [laughter]. And then I guess my billboard would be “Be fearless”. Just that's my motto “Be fearless”. I am… [Chris]: Where would you put it? [Erica]: I would… [Nathan]: I didn't ask where. [Erica]: Yeah he didn't ask where so I don't have to answer that question. [laughter] [Chris]: OK OK ,be fearless. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean literally the question is “If you could have it anywhere with anything on it…” I mean it doesn't matter where it is it's what's on it I guess. Is the message. And be fearless. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: I love that. So Erica we were talking the other day and you were currently working on an article for Inman. About how we focus our business. This kind of piggy bags off of our last episode with Billy a little bit. So what is your philosophy? You are running this business, you've got 8 agents, you are the reign maker. They are killing it. You've got great market share. What is your business philosophy about how you treat your clients and how does that set you apart? [Erica]: I…A lot of brokers say “We're agent centric, we're agent focused, we're all about the agent”. I believe the broker owns the client and I am client focused. It's all about the client. If you serve the client well the agents will be well fed and taken care of and that side of the coin takes care of itself. But it all begins with the broker and the client and so our entire office is very client centric. Even to the fact that if somebody is working with the client they're not handling it well or they are not mixing well with this person, they're getting frustrated. We will just pull them off that one and say “Give it to this person”. And switch them. It's about the client not about you and your commission or the money coming into the office. [Christian]: Preach it sister.  [Erica]: So…Say it again. [Christian]: I said preach it sister. [Nathan]: Preach it is right. I mean if you go by even our last episode part of this. Again it's client. This is like another one of the common themes in our podcast right guys? I mean and lady.  [Chris]: It's tuning in. [Nathan]: Listen listen, this is not rocker science. We are not reinventing the wheel. We are not…We are not coming up with something new. We're actually just going in and doing what we should be doing and taking care of the client. Good Gosh I mean we can't say it enough. But I mean why do we have to keep saying it? [Erica]: Because people are too dump to do it. It's simple.  [Christian]: Right. Well and I think it's because we push it back against the status quo of the industry. The franchises… [Chris]: They're like KPIs KPIs KPIs. [Christian]: All of that stuff is set up to be focused on sales and numbers and money and getting as many agents as possible you know. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: Recruit retain recruit retain. [Christian]: Exactly. So I mean being client focused or caring about people is not…You are going against the flow of how the whole industry works. [Nathan]: Right yeah. You know there are stats and all that good. I had an agents yesterday…sag way real quick. Sorry. They chased bank at their home office. I get invited to their…their first time or their home buyer programs. And it is great being a chased preferred agent but they are having to be another agent there that is new and one of the other agent speaks and said “Hey we haven't lost the house and in our competitive market you probably will.” And she said “Not me” And I was like oh come on just stop. Like here we go with the ego and not making it about the client, you're making it about you. And can we just…More people. I am gonna stop. Just stop making it about you there. [laughter] [Chris]: Yeah it's the ego. [Erica]: And brokers can be afraid to get people out of their office when they don't fit not only the culture but the way the agent should be. I terminated one who was all about her. She rebelled on a client because the client was 10 minutes late on an appointment [laughter]. And the client forwarded me the text message and she said “I don't have time to wait for people at houses”. I was “You need to leave now” [laughter]. [Nathan]: If this was online and like a quote I would be doing that arrow and this…This this right… [Chris]: Yes. [Nathan]: Man that is…Yes. Don't be afraid. [Chris]: One of the…One of the things that I have learned over the last few years in kind of the leadership role of running a company is your culture that you build and that you operate is based off of thousands of tiny interactions. When you have people like that the ego, the meltdown, the trip, like they're just gonna suck and drain all the energy away from the people that are really trying to do good. So I couldn't agree with you more Erica. You just gotta get rid of those people. Unfortunately, I think there is too many brokers that if you got a pulse and a license you're… [Erica]: When you're being judged…When you're in a major franchise and you're being judged by the head count in  your office…I don't judge myself. People ask me...I will go to Inman and the first word out of their mouth is how many agents I have in the office. So I have… [Christian]: It's the metrics of measuring success. [Erica]: Exactly. I am proud of my market share. I am proud of the fact that my agents do a minimum of 24 sites a year. I have 2 that are doing 40 this year and one who is approaching 60. That is a lot of site. [Chris]: That is a lot of site. [Nathan]: That is slaying the dragon. [Chris]: I think that having…A lot of people put pressure on the metrics. “Oh number of agents, volume sold”. But I think the biggest metric is per person productivity. Because I think if those numbers win the per person productivity I think you are destroying Remax who is the…I mean their franchise on average is the highest per person productivity at like 16 sites per agent on average.  They don't even bring in KW because they are the biggest but they don't have the numbers per agent that KW has. That Remax has. And your average real estate agent in the industry is gonna do like what? 3, .4 deals per year? And that's just sites. So 3,4 sites per year I think is the average. And you are destroying that. And that is fantastic and you're doing it with a complete math of 10 people.  [Christian]: Yeah and that's the…That's the business number side of it. Anything else taken into accounts, smaller you know indie brokerages like ours you know can have the luxury of being able to be in charge, in control of developing that culture, how happy are your agents? You know, like on Remax or whatever. You know name any franchise and you know largely they have undefined culture. Like there is no distinguishing factor as to you know….What is like in their office versus anther franchise. Like they're just there to you know have head count. [Chris]: Our office has the best coffee machine. [laughter] Stuff like that. So Erica for any…We've had the theme kind of today of being the woman business owner. For anybody who is thinking about like stepping up like what advice would you give them? [Erica]: I would say that if you're not strong in your leadership skills or don't feel like you're there, that don't know how to be a leader, get a coach, get a mentor. There are at least in my areas there is classes you can take as far as leadership. Or find someone who you admire and ask them to take you under their wing because it really is by osmosis I think in this business and if there is someone in your office who shows promise bring them up with you. I take my agents all the time to chamber of commerce function, to mixers and just have them by my side so they can watch me interacting with other business people an helpfully bring up their confidence level. [Chris]: I love it. That's great. Erica for anybody who wants to get in touch with you and say they've got somebody moving to Pennsylvania or they just want to reach out and pick your brain on some of the things that you have accomplished, what is the best way that they can reach you? [Erica]: They can always call me or email me. My email address is easy, it's my name. ericaramus@gmail.com. And that's –E-R-I-C-A-R-A-M-U-S@gmail. And my phone number is 5704492131. If you google me it's all over. [Chris]: Awesome. Erica thank you so much for taking the time out of your day today to join us here in re:Think Real Estate. For everybody who is listening in please visit us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter so every week when we launch a new episode you're gonna get notified. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Keeping a positive outlook while building a business is not always the easiest. Today we talk about the tips and tricks we use to keep our minds focused and free from distraction and negative thoughts. Mindset matters. Real Estate Podcast Transcript Audio length 28:12 RTRE 52 – Keeping a Successful Mindset in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate.  I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What is up guys? [Nathan]: [crosstalk] [Christian]: I am possibly feeling good. Kind of good mental outlook. [Chris]: You got a good mental outlook?  [Christian]: I am happy. [Chris]: What about you Nate? How is your mental outlook going today? [Nathan]: As strong as usual.  [Chris]: Fantastic. [Christian]: All the exercise. All this endorphin is gone. [Nathan]: It's also about not letting the…not letting that other devil on the shoulder creep in. [Chris]: Oh yeah definitely. It's always there. Today everybody we are talking about the mental state. The attitude to be peak performance, businessman, person. Whatever you wanna call it. But we're gonna talk about how your attitude and your metal state can impact not only your business but our personal life. Your family.  Everything that you do is impacted by your mental state. So guys who wants to take it off with the first point on this? Nate you're doing a lot with…with running and just being all around crazy person. So why don't we start with you? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I guess you can. Sure. Whatever. Huh. [laughter] The…you know we talk about mental state right. I guess that's a question I get asked a lot. You know they say “How do you run so far? How do you do what you do?”.  And you know I tell people it's really it's not the physical. It's a couple of things. One is the mind. It is…it is having the mental fortitude to as we…as I said when we were getting into the show, talking that other guy off your shoulder who is telling you the whole time “You know you can quit”.  The other side of the mental state if you would is commitment. You know I probably said it before in our podcast. I talk about Ritual says it but you know he says it the moment of commitment the universe will conspire to assist you. There's Casey Neistat who is a filmmaker. He has a plan or a recipe if you would for success. That he guarantees to work. And I think it is all within this category.  What Casey says is “All you have to do is commit your entire life to something which will result in either 1 of 2 outcomes. Either you will succeed or you will die trying which is in itself its own form of success, right?”.  You know we're always…we're always looking for the easy way to do things either be in life, or even as a realtor. Realtors I think we're the best example of like “Oh wait sweet, that's gonna make me a million dollars. Oh wait look over here that's gonna make me this”. We're looking for the easiest way instead of committing to something and having the right mindset.  I will use us as an example right. We could have been traditional realtors when we said we were gonna set out to do the podcast. And I think you know not knocking on everybody on industry but you know a lot of people would have said “Alright fine after 10 episode…” they call, they call it quits.  [Chris]: They have. [Nathan]: Because the mindset was wrong going into it. When we started this we said before even recording an episode “We're committed to 100 episodes win, lose or draw”. Right. Because we have, we have no way to measure anything by doing it 3 or 4 times. And maybe even 100 is still not where we wanted to be but we stuck with the commitment to do it. Is it a [censored] and a pain the [censored] and do we have to coordinate all these other things that we have to deal with? Yes. [Chris]: At times. [Nathan]: But we are committed. And that takes mindset. Just stay committed to it. Right. I think any of us at any given point could have said “God is this…” You know we probably all said “Is this worth it?”. We have had those moments but you have to fight through the moment of doubt to move past it which generally is very fleeting. And it's quick and then we progress. Right.  So…you know mindsets it's everything we do. It's not just real estate. It's in your personal life and your daily life and your rituals. I mean I could preach about it all day I guess. You know a lot of what I have accomplished I consider myself an average Joe but I think what sets me apart is I have a different mindset.  [Christian]: Yeah I will add to that if I could. [Nathan]: No. [Christian]: I think… [Chris]: No you can't. Nate is gonna talk for this episode. [Nathan]: We don't need your opinion. We're just gonna stop there and work it out. [Christian]: Episode over. I think you're right. I think you know not giving up and being consistent is a big part of it. But I think the mindset as you're going through it and how you respond to you know using the example of the podcast. It takes up time and planning you know. We're blocked out 2 or 3 hours you know every week. Every couple of weeks to knock these out. And you know I could be thinking myself “Oh man this is a pain in the [censored]. I don't have time for this. I don't really like Nate but you know whatever. [laughter]” Whatever are my excuses. [Nathan]: Not liking me is a good one. [Christian]: But…But instead you know I choose to try and focus on “Well this is beneficial. Hopefully we will provide some value to other agents and this thing is gonna start you know being a momentum”. You know it's kind of what do you focus on? Do you wallow in the negatives or do you look towards you know, the positives?  And that's one thing that I think really, really can keep things going. Keep your energy up and just in life will keep you going. Because you could just wide knowingly and try and not give up. But just hate your life and be miserable and you know be an energy suck to everyone around you. Or if your attitude is you know right it will be the other. It will be again life empowering and energy. Giving and inspiring instead of what most people don't like being around. You know.  [Chris]: I think that you know when it comes to the thoughts that people have I think the difference between somebody who is successful and somebody who is not is their ability to control where their focus is going. And I think there is a common misperception by those who are unable to keep a positive attitude about how that happens.  And one of the…I wanna say it was in the Success Principles by Jack Canfield. But one of the best things that I have read is that everybody gets the train of thought. Everybody gets doubt and everybody gets the feeling of optimism at times and everybody struggles with “Is this for me or am I doing the right thing? Am I wasting my time? This is such a pain in the [censored]. I am not seeing the results”.  But the difference between people who are successful and the people who are not is the people who are successful have those thoughts and then they just watch those thoughts you know fly by. Right. Everybody…the train is gonna come and go. You can choose whether to ride it or not. And that's one thing that I have tried to do is that when those come up pay attention to it for a few minutes than get back to work. And you know I don't have time to wallow or think about whether this is gonna work or not. Just get on to the next project. [Christian]: Yeah I think you kind of remind me when you're talking about kind of the thoughts we have. You know because you can just be kind of the positive energy you know feng shui “I am just one with the universe, it's all about the feelings” right. [laughter] How do you get there? You can't just force feelings. [Chris]: No. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think a big part of that is…You know we're talking about intentionality there but I think there is intentionality in your thoughts. You know because like… [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: Because we're all…we all have internal voice. Internal dialogue right. We're always telling ourselves there is always a story that we're telling ourselves. Now that story could be full of lies or it could be full of truths. It could be life empowering or life sucking. And so if we're not conscious of… [Chris]: That's good. [Christian]: If we're not conscious of what we're telling ourselves…you know like something bad happens I tell myself and I am subconsciously telling myself “Man there he goes again. I am a total idiot. I am a marron. I can't do anything right. Nothing is gonna work”. Like you're gonna spiral downwards.  But if you're like “OK it's a little setback. I am gonna keep going forward. I am gonna make a suggestion.” You know like that's going to keep you going forward. And if you're not conscious of what we're telling ourselves or what story we're living our lives out of than you know our emotions are gonna be all over the place and we're not gonna know why. Because our thoughts largely will dictate “OK do I respond well to this? My emotions are going to you know get better or am I gonna spiral into the self-sabotaging depression”. Those thoughts that we have and what we're telling ourselves largely will dictate that. [Nathan]: But what did Henry Ford say? He has one of the greatest lines of all time.  [Chris]: Whether you think you can or you can't you're right. [Nathan]: Either way your right. [Christian]: That's right. Exactly. [Nathan]: Believe that like any of the journeys that I have bene on in my life and hell I have been on some. You know they were…they were hard. They were painful. They weren't…they weren't colossi. The reward though was the journey in itself. The not quitting. The really finishing the task, right.  And I think anybody that has been through whatever life experience it may be they are…they already know this. They know what's true. Right? You know I mean so…but it's…it is you know the mind itself it can be your best friend or your worst enemy, right? I mean you know I think and I was doing my 24 hour run and it's 3 a.m. in the morning. You know I've got that guy on my shoulder and that part of my mind going “Why the [censored] are you out here for? What are you doing?” Right.  And at any moment I could have just quit. I could have said “This is enough.” But what I had to realize is that moment of doubt, the moment of fear generally they're very short. They don't last as long as I think one likes to think. If you can get past it than it's OK but you kind of have to…you know you have to commit the daily pressure and what, you know, compels to just progress sometimes. You gotta give yourself you know over and over and over you know…I am good at what I do because I failed a lot. And I think a lot of people when they have failures they…they just quit. [Christian]: Right. But you took those failures and you said “What can I learn and how can I grow?” and not try to give up and not try it ever again because it's risky and painful. Super painful.  [Chris]: And that's the key. Like you learn from the mistakes. You know one of the things that I have seen in being the difference between especially new agents coming into real estate. Those being successful or those that are very fleeting in the industry is how long their outlook is. Because if people are focused on short term , right. If you're focused on “Oh I've gotta get 3 byers in 3 weeks” and that doesn't happen than you get discouraged. OK “Well I've gotta get 3 buyer sin 3 months now, that's a little bit more reasonable”.  But when people start doing things like prospecting and mailing campaigns and maybe they subscribe to do a lead platform like Zillow or Sync or Boom Town or whatever it is, people always expect immediate results and they don't have a long forecast because things don't happen overnight. And if somebody goes into something with a plan of you know “I am gonna try this for 3 months and see if it works” and then 3 months in they haven't…they barely got the system set up and they don't know how to work it yet and they're not getting the results and they throw the hands up and they say “I have been paying for this for 3 months and it's not working”.  People who go in with that kind of mindset have such a completely different and less successful experience than somebody who is like “You know what I am gonna go into it, I am gonna give it 3 months to learn it, 6 months to execute and then I am gonna evaluate in the last 3 months and I am gonna commit a year to this and see if this is a system that I want to continue with”.  And people who go in and they study it and work at it diligently…It's like a CRM right? What's the best CRM? The one you use. Doesn't matter the software. Not to be a jab Nate. [Nathan]: No it's OK. [Chris]: [laughter] But you know when it comes to the fortitude of how well somebody is gonna be…How likely their success is. If they have a long outlook right, if they have a 2 year business plan and something happens to them at months 3 but they know that they're in it for 2 years they're a lot less likely to be negatively impacted by whatever that event is at month 3. They're like “I got a long way to go”. And then they just get back on the saddle. Versus who is like “OK I am gonna give it 6 months”. And than they come in and they barely have enough time to set up their email account. It's gonna be a different story. [Christian]: Yeah I think…I think realistic expectations are important. You know I would say if you want to be successful and you know specifically in real estate or just business in general, don't be a…don't be afraid to take risks. Because if you're afraid of failure like you're never gonna take a big enough risk to really make a difference in your life. [Chris]: Couldn't agree more. [Christian]: Like Nate saying you know…you know like the more you fail hopefully you learn from that and that is what leads to success, not playing it safe and never trying. I know for me I learned this pretty early on form my military career you know because I joined…I joined the army at 25. And my whole goal was special forces.  You know I am like “If I am gonna serve than I am gonna serve the best”. And the elite and whatever. So I knew going into it that it was gonna be a tough road. And I guess it was physically demanding, hardest thing I have ever done but as a mental part that really kills people. There is you know total studs out there that you know as soon as it starts getting tough or inconvenient they are like “I am done I am out”.  You know but one of the things I have learned going through special forces assessment that the qualification course is you know instead of kind of doing the…what we do with the procrastination, instead of saying “I'll start exercising tomorrow, I'll start doing this tomorrow”. You kind of reverse it and say “I will quit tomorrow”. But you know “This road march sucks. Plenty of miles wearing 60 plus pounds. I will quit tomorrow. I will quit in a kilometer. I will quit when I get over that hill. OK there's just one more hill and I will quit than”. And before you know you've finished. Before you know you've succeeded. [Chris]: I like that. That's awesome. [Christian]: It is just these mental games you kind of learn to like keep yourself you know acknowledge the reality that “Yeah it sucks but I am gonna keep going. I am gonna do my best”. You know and that's all you can do. You do your best and before you know it you realize you can actually withstand mental and physically a lot more than you think you can. [Nathan]: I'll…I can talk about this all day but I will leave it with this. I admire a true…I carry him around in my hand all day long because I you know we have talked about my headset and I have to have my little tricks. But Ritual says “Practice your craft. Whatever shape or form that may be late into the evening with relentless giber. Embrace the fear, let go off perfection. Allow yourself to fail. Welcome the obstacles. Forget the results. Give yourself over to the passion with every fiber of your art and live out the rest of your days trying to do better. I can't promise you'll succeed in the way our culture inappropriately defines the term but I can absolutely guarantee you that you will deeply become acquainted with who you truly are. You'll touch and exude passion and discover what it means to truly be alive”.  [Christian]: That's enough said. [Nathan]: Yeah love that man [laughter]. [Chris]: That's good stuff. So for real estate agents we ride an emotional roller coaster. We have periods where we're like “Oh great this is awesome. Get a client, somebody who actually wants to work with us”. And then “Oh man that client they already signed a brokerage agreement with somebody else”. Or “They went out and they bought a home that was a Feesbo and they're now not gonna give me a commission”. Or “They went and bought a new construction and they put me down as the agent”.  Than we've got all sorts of ups and downs. You know. “Got the first contract”. And then the financing falls through right before closing. And I mean it just happens over and over and over in our industry. So guys how do you take a beating and get back up the next day? [Christian]: Yeah it's a good question. I mean it's how the mentality and how what we were talking about applies to real estate specifically is…I don't know I mean Nate just made it kind of simple or whatever but just do your best. Don't worry about what everyone else around you is doing. You know because there is so much especially culturally with kind of the politics and kind of the…what's the word I am looking for, not segregation but you know, the extremes. You know people are very polarized. [Chris]: Oh yeah. [Christian]: Very polarized. So you know it could be very easy to…I don't know what point I am trying to make here. You can cut this out [laughter]. So I guess how it applies to real estate. [Chris]: Yeah how do real estate agents keep taking a beating? How do they get up every morning, get punched in the throat and then go to bed and wake up the nest day with a smile in the face to get punched in the throat again. [Christian]: Yeah I would say just keep…you know trying your best. Do your best. Don't worry about what everyone around you is doing. You know because I mean it's very easy to get cynical and complain in this industry and you know I am a big believer that complaining and negativity is a cancer. You know it spreads like it infects you know culture infects an office, affects those around you. Not in a good way you know.  So I try to tell myself “OK when I find myself complaining or thinking to myself hey this other agent is a complete marron like I go out of my way to like OK maybe they're just new, maybe they're having an off day or maybe they are a marron”. But it doesn't really do any good to like spread that around my office [laughter]. You know. You know so I am just like “OK note to self don't do that. Learn from this”. You know learn from other people's either just traditional things that I don't like or the things I think are wrong. Instead of just complaining about it you know do something about it and you know maybe they need help you know. Maybe they didn't get good mentoring or their brokerage sucks or something. You know just do what you can to help yourself help those that you know ultimately effect and do thing that you can have a change on, have an effect on. You know things that you can't change just write it off your back, let it go. Just take care of yourself. [Nathan]: Let's just go back. How…what's the answer to the question? I don't have one. That is it. I honestly I don't…I don't have one. I think you have to lose a lot. I think you have to fail a lot to appreciate what you have. Because I think it's hard for a lot of people to appreciate what they truly have because they never went without.  I see it a lot. You know it's always the wanting of more, more, more. I can tell you form experience of having nothing. Literally having nothing. I am thankful for what I got every day. So…You know you want to really find out go and test yourself. Go sleep outside for 2 nights with a blanket and nothing else but a cardboard and find your food. And literally do something like that. Do something extreme. Really crazy like that sounds crazy. But go do it.  Just experience for 2 days what it is like to be homeless or something. You know I could think of crazier things but that's just a good one. And then maybe you will take a step back and appreciate what you do have. Again being grateful is I don't know for some people it is a hard [censored] thing. And we should be more of it. So mindset. You are who you are. You control you know what you can control and I can't control you or anybody else. But you can as an individual. So make that choice everyday and have a great day. I would start there. [Christian]: Yeah that's an interesting point because you have been thinking about this a lot because I have an 8 year old kid who you know has a pretty…pretty damn good life [laughter] and doesn't know it you know. And so thinking about like you can try to teach gratitude which is obviously what we're doing you know as parents. But you know the reality is like without the perspective of like never having known what is like to be really hungry or cold or you know lonely without friends or whatever like it's really hard to teach them so we're trying to teach them “OK responding well.”  Just because you know if you're like “This is my expectation up here and nothing in life ever meets it” you're always gonna be dissatisfied. You know versus kind of a more realistic like “Hey I got up in the morning. There is lung in my air and I am upright on 2 feet. Like life's good. [laughter] you know I am not in crying pain or whatever”. You know. So there's always…always something good that you can focus on as far as being grateful.  I think a huge cancer in our society is…has come to this envy class welfare thing where essentially you know we may be like “Hey I am doing pretty good” and then someone on the news brings stuff up well “You know the richest people in the world are getting richer but the middle class blah blah blah”. And like “How does that affect me?” It doesn't. I was fine until a minute ago until I find out someone has aa billion dollars more than I do and now I am just pissed off.  It's like their success doesn't make me less successful. It's all like envy class welfare politicizing all of this you know stuff like that keeps up pissed off and miserable and ungrateful. You know like focus on what you do have. It could be a whole lot worse and don't always be wanting what someone else has. You know. [Chris]: That's awesome. You know one of the things that I think helps agents when they're…you know when they get beat down and they're starting their career and they have those big failures, is you know just look at it in perspective. We try and keep a support system around them so that they're not going off and wallowing on their own. We try and encourage them to focus on the behavior. Focus on what you need to do. Focus on the actions. Focus on reaching out to your clients or your database and creating a great relationship with them. Focus on doing something to improve somebody's day.  So if your client fell through and you know got stood up at a showing, well now you've got some time that you can go and try and brighten somebody else's day. Somebody that is in your network that you can remind them what you do but also at the same time do something nice for them. To let them know that you're thinking of them.  And I find that when agents do that and they go out and they show gratitude towards everybody else which is awesome. I love that you brought up gratitude. It changes their mindset right. If I am in a really bad mood and I go and do something great for somebody I am not gonna be in that bad mood for a long time. Especially if I can feel good about what I was able to do for someone.  And you know if you get stood up in an appointment you get that deal that falls through just take that as an excuse to have some extra free time to do something good in somebody else's life and eventually that's gonna all pay off as dividends. Because I think too many…too many agents, too many people focus on the short term. They focus on “What are my numbers? What are my numbers? What do my numbers need to be? Why aren't they there?”. And they don't focus on the behaviors. They don't focus on “Am I doing the right thing?”. They are going to eventually lead to a better performance. So I think that's kind of the big thing that I have seen. I don't know. Hopefully it helps answers… [Christian]: I mean I would say just kind of say in wrapping up to some up all this in general having a good attitude which you know starts with those right thoughts, the true thoughts that live in your head you know will lead you to gratitude which will lead you to empathy and hopefully understand the people and be more compassionate will lead you to just being a better more happy satisfied human being [laughter]. Which you know how can you not be successful in life if like that's your outlook. [Chris]: People do business with people they know like and trust. You're happy… [Nathan]: You have a choice people, folks. You have a choice. [Chris]: Yeah if you've got a great outlook, people are gonna want to do business with you. You got a great outlook and you know what you're doing people are gonna want to do business with you and they're gonna refer you to other people. Simple as that. So thanks for tuning in everybody. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Ever wonder why some people leave a bad taste in your mouth after meeting them? Successful marketing requires building a relationship with your audience. Many real estate professionals avoid this and instead grab a bullhorn and shout at their audience expecting the same results. Tune in for today's episode to hear us talk about how to NOT be annoying in your interactions with the public. The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Audio length 30:15 [music] [Chris]: Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech. [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas what's happening? Alright [laughter]. Today we're gonna talk about being annoying [laughter].  [Chris]: That's a great intro for that Christian. Before we get started Nate how is your CRM doing? [Nathan]: Yeah…anyway… [Chris]: [laughter] Alright. So yeah, we definitely want to talk about being annoying and how not to do that. Today's episode we're talking about marketing. And our good friend Joe Rand over from JoeRand.com just came out with an article a few days ago which was “Stop being annoying-The 3 phases of communication technology and why nobody likes us”. So great article. Nate you found this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it? [Nathan]: Well I didn't find it. It happened…you know I found it, whatever. I saw it. It was funny because I was having thoughts like Joe was having and Joe was much better with words than I, that's why he has a couple of books right? But I just…I was getting annoyed because like I get on Facebook right and it's just…it's just…It's not even Facebook anymore. What we used to know right. It's kind of like you know how MTV changed. It's all marketing. It's just marketing. And a lot of it it's realtors who won. I mean I'm not…I hate to be that guy to pick on our industry but again we got a content. It's horrible but again you know whether it's from…And I mean I am looking here right now. Some golf advert to realtor, to realtor, to realtor. Like it's just nonstop and it's poor. And I don't know I feel like we find a good you know what would you call it, a medium, and than we go and ruin it and people hate us for it. And Joe you know wrote the article about how to stop being annoying. He offers a 3-part solution. Phase 1 the excitement. Phase 2 solicitation. 3 is the protection.  [Chris]: Let's talk about that. [Nathan]: Well let's talk about it but I want to get to the point real quick on this and then we go back to the 3 phases.  And then he offers he says “What's the solution?”. He says “Well we can't do anything about everyone else”.  I agree 100%.  “But we can police our own behavior”. Instead of using email, social media, phones to make annoying calls that only serve our own interest we need to focus our outbound marketing efforts on providing a service to other people. Think about what they need not what you need.  [Christian]: But being client centric? What. That's crazy. Thinking about other people.  [Chris]: I've never heard of that before.  [Nathan]: I don't think we've ever talked about that have we? [Chris]: No it's completely out of line with this show.  [Nathan]: So Phase 1. Phase 1 is excitement. [Chris]: And so phase 1 like I think he compared it to people getting an answering machine right. Everybody got an answering machine and everybody wanted to see the red light blinking and then telemarketers just ruined it. And then nobody has an answering machine now and people barely check their voicemail. [Christian]: Sure I mean I think the idea is you know I mean there's quite a number of books on you know technology and evolution of it and this plays right into that theme of when something new comes out it's exciting. Everyone wants it. You know it goes back to like the days of pre-TV with you know door to door salesman. You know like being at home is boring so people wanted people to come to the door.  And then that got saturated and you know you had the mail. People enjoyed getting mail and then you know solicitations and advertisement got in the mail and now people you know hover over the recycling bin throwing away mail.  And you know now you're getting that you know with social media. Like you used to enjoy getting on social media and checking in with friends and whatever and now you have to whip 30 you know half of it is solicitations from agents or other marketers, you know, as agents. We're getting solicited for leading this or growing your business that you know by who knows who. You know so self-described gurus. And you know now you have to filter there. Now you know it takes away the joy of what once was. Looking forward to getting online or looking forward to getting the mail or looking forward to someone getting to your house. Now it's annoying. [Chris]: Yeah we find something that we enjoy. We get excited about it. New technology and all the advertisers start catching on to it. They start saying “Oh we can reach people in a new way through this technology”.  And then they start soliciting and soliciting and hounding us left and right through the mediums that we're enjoying. And that's the end game right? Because that's how these platforms make money. It's though advertising. They're advertising companies.  And then what happens next that's what Joe says is phase 3. That's protection. We stop paying attention to them. We develop coping mechanisms to not be solicited and not listen or not pay attention to the ads that are coming on. And I think that this is a big reason why our attention span has now become that's less than a goldfish. Because that has been a coping mechanism to pay…to not pay attention to all of these solicitations that we're getting.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I would say that part of it is just a medium of social media. Not necessarily being advertised. You know it's you know there's another big leaf. There is a message in that medium so it's not just the only thing they're consuming is the message you know but consuming a message via print versus auditory, versus you know social media. You know like it's gonna do different things in your brain. You respond differently you know.  But it doesn't help that we now have all this extra white noise to filter through to get to what we actually wanna see which is typically you know friends and family and not solicitors trying and sell us something. [Chris]: Absolutely and so let's talk about how we cannot be annoying. You know I friend people in real estate all the time and last week somebody reached out on Facebook, sent me this message. This person is in real estate.  This is what they said “Hey Christopher I almost didn't message you because I don't want to come across spammy. LOL. My wife and I have had some great result with “Thrive”. More energy [cough] mental clarity, weight management. I even sleep better. It might be for you and I think or it might not and that's OK. Just wanted to share what's working for me. Would you be open to more info?” There's absolutely nothing of value that that person delivered to me. And it's just… [Nathan]: If you're not sleeping well it could be of value. [Chris]: Well do I want more energy or do I want to sleep better? I mean does…is it just me or those 2 are completely different ends of the spectrum?  [Nathan]: [censored] I just want my kid to stay in his bed at night and not interrupt my sleep so if they can fix that for me in that email. [Chris]: [laughter] I mean it's what has become of people. And that person is in real estate and they are paddling a multi-level marketing product on the side. I mean do you think that their real estate marketing may end up following similar pattern? I don't think it's a farfetched to actually see that leap being made. [Nathan]: I think-no go ahead sorry. [Chris]: No I mean I…kind of the point I kind of make here is if you're just going out and peddling something in front of somebody they're gonna ignore you. Those are the coping mechanisms that we have developed now. It's no longer…like we don't like being sold things.  [Nathan]: No I am attracted to the brands or things that eat my curiosity. That I don't feel like they're jammed down my throat.  And so I'll use a perfect example and in no form or shape I represent them but recently I have been doing the Purple Carrot Meal Delivery right. And I just hashtag it on my Ohio running realtor Instagram. You know “#purplecarrotblablabla”. The…I take pictures of the food which is really good. But I have had more people reach out to me just through organically saying “Hey can you tell me a little bit more about Purple Carrot?”.  I am not…I am not on there going “Purple Carrot is the bomb bla bla bla”. I put what the meal is. I state you know whether it is cous cous or whatever it may be, insert a joke there and take a really nice picture and then put it out there.  And I have had a lot of people private message me or DM me or whatever you wanna call it and say “Hey can you tell me more about it?”. I am not forcing it down anybody's throat. I am not saying you have to have this”. But it has created interest.  I am a brand ambassador for Prevail Botanicals. You don't see my thread on Facebook with Prevail every day. We use a hashtag. We don't jam it down your throat. Have that people say “Hey what stuff do you use with your sore muscles and your AT pains from running and bla bla bla” and I say “It's Prevail”.  If they wanna know more than they'll ask but I feel it's the same with real estate. Like if somebody is really genuinely interested in real estate they're gonna ask you. Just...you don't have to jam it down people's throats. At least I believe that you're a [censored] realtor. Like just I don't know I feel like we're so over the top. Like over the time. Like “What do you like better this back porch or that back porch?” “What I like is when you don't post [censored] like that personally but…”  [laughter] Like nobody cares right. I just…They don't care about interest rates unless they are buying a house. They don't care about houses unless they are buying a house. So that's me and it works for me. It doesn't mean it works for everybody else. And my colleague, Mr. Harris, has his hand up over there so I am gonna let him talk on that. I am gonna thank you Christian.  [Christian]: Alright. I am gonna play the devil's advocate here for a sec. What if someone…What if someone is listening and thinking “Well how do we know they're real estate agents there?” Where is the balance between letting someone know and being in sales and annoying when you talk about houses? [Nathan]: Because there is a way to be subtle about it. Like you know…like I don't…I just…like when I go to a closing the biggest thing that I do other than my hashtag that's on a separate entity but I check into a closing and I put “Doing a closing thing”. People know…I mean most people know, I don't want to say everybody, but they know that I am a realtor or that in some way I am doing that business. And there's other ways.  I don't know. I just don't want my social media feed filled with that crap and guess what I have taken the option of doing. I have taken the choice of filtering all that out. You know. It's that old advertisement. You don't like something on the TV change the channel. I have changed the channel. So… [Chris]: I think it all comes down to the message. Marketing is required. The marketing is the…it is the whole process of staying top of mind in our sphere but there are different ways that we can do it right.  So an example is, Nathan you just brought up rates. Your typical buyer doesn't care about the rate. Unless they're very savvy. They care about the payment. So if your post on social media “Up rates just jumped again” and all you talk about is the rate than that doesn't really provide any value to them. That your target audience may know that you have something to do with real estate but they're not really paying attention to that message.  On the other hand if you say “Rates just jumped again” so…and then you kind of put that in context and say “Well a $200.000 house now the payment went from on average about 12.000 to now about 13.000” that means something a little bit more that is easier for somebody outside of the industry to understand.  I think that marketing involves us putting ourselves in the potential client shoes. The shoes of the consumer, to understand what is important to them.  If you talk about due diligence right they don't care about due diligence. They buy a house once every 10 years. They don't need to know that stuff every day. They need to know what is going on in the community. Right.  Realtors should be the digital mayor of the community. They should be out there saying “Well we have these festivals going on. I'll see you there”. Or share a personal story that really somebody can resonate with that may reflect around what you do professionally that gives some sort of authenticity and come insight to show that you're human and that you're not just trying to sell them on something. Because that's…that's been the focal point for everything that we do. That's the idea behind client's centricity. Is putting their needs first. We need to do that in our marketing too.  [Christian]: I think you being up an interesting point. It's a lot of it comes down to marketing you know that is that. And in my experience yeah the majority of what is being peddled out there is marketing in real estate you know by franchises, by gurus, by trainers is pretty much the opposite of you know Joe Rants “Don't be annoying”.  You know they say “You gotta be top of mind”. And to them that's making your phone calls and pestering people and going online. And if you go “Oh by the way if you know anyone that can buy or sell a house” like everyone is taught to say that so everyone says it so no one…so it means nothing to no one. People are just like “Oh yeah that's what a realtor says” you know. It's like a stand up. You know that's bad marketing. That is low bar. I am not thinking I am just told to do this and I am gonna do it and supposedly that will give me result. They probably are not the results that you want.  [Chris]: I think you just hit the nail in the head there.  [Nathan]: I do too. [Chris]: Thinking. And that's the problem. If you're gonna market effectively you have to think about what the message is that is gonna solve the problem for your consumer. [Christian]: Well you have to start with who your consumer is. You know if it is the population that you asked well there is your first problem. Like that should not be your targeting market. You know. [Chris]: You've got different segments right. You've got …there might be an itch that you work. And that might be your thing to go after her whether that we based off of a previous profession, a hobby. Whether you're running or cycling or you just love giving back in the community and you're in the philanthropy space. You have geographic which is you can market based off of where you live and where you do business or you can go and just focus on something specific in real estate right.  If you focus on if you're in the equestrian market and you've grown up in the equestrian world and you understand horse ranches better than anybody else that is something that you can specifically market to but the fact is that no matter what you're marketing to, what segment that is you've gotta find out a way to provide value to them.  It's geographic. Share what's going on in the community. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that said, “Share what is going on in the community“ and how little people actually do it.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean even if you don't have all that figured out just be an interesting person [laughter]. I mean like I think like Peter Lorimer or something you know. Obviously he's got a big personality like British accent and stuff but like this guy has hands in everything. And it's all really interesting to watch or listen to. You know, and I get the impression he is trying to sell to me. Like it's always helping agents or you know “Look at this cool thing, this is what I am doing in my life right now”. Like it's never “Hey if you're looking to buy or sell you know in Los Angeles…” or whatever you know yeah I mean you could figure it out.  So going back to kind of our initial conversation about Joe Rants 3 things it's as you were giving that example you know you received a social message whatever it was. It is interesting that we have gotten you know most people think we are related to this. We've gotten so far along the hiatus to the sales pitch that they don't even pretend it's not a sales pitch. They just come up like “Hey I hope this isn't annoying to you” or “I hope this doesn't come off as spammy” [laughter] which really means “This is a standard sales pitch”. [Chris]: Yeah you know “I am about to annoy the hell out of you”. [Christian]: As if that's more authentic and will make it less salesly or you're more likely to you know like they think that that's they know that's a barrier and they think that admitting it will be less a barrier. When in reality that's just like “Oh thankfully I didn't read the whole message. Delete”. Just put it up front so I can delete quickly you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I mean my response to him was” you know “You should have stuck with your gut. [laughter]. It was definitely spammy and annoying. And shouldn't have messaged me.” But agents do that all the time. Real estate agents they do the same thing that multi-level marketing people are doing. “Hey haven't talked to you in a while. Wanted to reach out and let you know I am in real estate now. Do you know anybody that is looking to buy or sell in the next you know 30-60-90 days”. Whatever it is.  Agents do that all the time and there's…it's actually really easy to not do that. Like if you meet somebody and they ask you what you do the first thing you're gonna say is “Real estate”. And they're just gonna come down and immediately ask you how the market is. That is the instantly question that the buyers or anybody that you meet are gonna ask you once they find out that you're in real estate. So what do most agents do? Well most agents the moment they get asked that question they say “The market is great. The market is great. When are you looking to move?” or “Are you looking to move?”. They immediately position themselves for the time share pitch. And that's the high pressure.  [Christian]: That's desperate. [Chris]: They come off as desperate. And the people that are on the opposite side they don't feel like they're on a conversation anymore. They feel like they're being cornered into becoming a lead. And people don't want to be considered a lead. They want to be considered you know their name and they don't want to be you know a prospect.  So a great way that that can be changed is instead of asking them “Well you know are you looking to buy or sell?”. “Who is your realtor?” “Oh I don't have a realtor I am not in the market”. “Oh great well not everybody is in the market at all time. So who do you call when you need to file your tax assessment? Who do you call when you're trying to figure out how much money you should spend on the renovation and you want to make sure that you don't get negative equity?” “Like these are kind of free services, they're complimentary services that we offer to everybody in the community as part of our company and I'd love to be able to be that person for you if you ever need to reach out. If some of these people end up using me to buy or sell some of us don't but it's not a big deal but we're here for you and we want to provide value”.  Doing something like that the conversation goes a whole different way. People have respect for you for not trying to sell them. They thing that you're a professional and that you don't need to beg for the business and it's just a different impression that we can leave on the people that we meet. [Nathan]:  That's just…it makes me think of this example of why we have a bad name. Next door you know the social site, right? OK right so somebody the other day posted “Hey I got friends looking to move in the neighborhood. If you know anybody looking to sell let me know.” Of course it got like 5 responses right. And one of those responses is somebody I know that is getting ready to least and bla bla bla. What they didn't realize as soon as they responded the person said “Well I am an agent and I've got clients looking in this area, what do you have and I'll let you…” It's the classic [censored] you know. They didn't have anything.  [Christian]: Switch.  [Nathan]: It was just the baiting switch. And my client was just like “Man that is so shady” and I was like “And people wonder why we have such a bad name. When you do [censored] like that it's just horrible”. I like…I wanted to message everybody in that thread and “Hey you do know this person is an agent and they're actually not looking for their family member, they're trying to find new clients. Like it's such a [censored] shady way to do things”.  [Christian]: Do you guys follow the broke agent? [Chris]: [laughter] Yeah on occasion.  [Nathan]: Yeah you're talking to him [laughter]. [Christian] Alright. You know there's a funny you know GIF meme he posted the other day. It was like it was a clip from one of The pirates of the Caribbean movies where Jack Sparrow is being chased across the beach by a mob, you know. It's like I think the subtext was like “You know when someone posts online about their selling their house and these agents just the mob of agents chasing them you know”. It's like pretty much sums it up. [Nathan]: Yeah they go “Opportunity oh my God lets start salivating and jumping over each other”. [Chris]: So lets talk about that. If someone posted online that they want an agent what do you do? [Christian]: They usually won't though. They're usually more cryptic like “I am moving to this area” or “I am fixing my house up to sell”. Like you…I mean no one goes out there and says “Hey I am looking for an agent”. [Chris]: Well like OK so whatever the message is whether that is cryptic or direct what do you do? [Christian]: Well usually there is over 150 replies by other desperate agents by the time I read it so I usually do nothing.   [Chris]: OK. Nate do you do anything on those posts? [Nathan]: It depends. And sometimes yes I will. But I try to spin it from what you said. What value I can give them upfront. And part of that I think it's just being honest you know. So…you know again if they choose you than great. I have never had it happen. Actually no. I take that back. I had person that I did speak with who actually didn't list their home but they appreciated that I was just honest. They felt that everybody reached out to him swung him some line of [censored] and I just told him what I felt. But we all know that's me so… [Chris]: Well you're good at that. So one of the things that has worked for me because I actually have gotten some business off of some of those posts. Everybody is gonna comment “Oh so and so is a great realtor. So and so is a great realtor”. What I have done in the past is I have reached out to them directly. Send them a private message.  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If I knew them personally I would send them an email or text. I would just say “Hey I saw your post online. I know you're gonna have a million people that are hounding you for business. Just be careful who you hire. Make sure you vet them properly. If you need anything just know that I am in real estate and…” Throw a couple of credential in there but just let them know that if they have any questions you know we're here to answer it.   I have had more conversations with people like that and I have received probably 6 or 7 referrals off of threads where people were like hundreds steep. I have received 6 or 7 of those referrals where I have messaged different agents and let them know the exact same thing. And people appreciate that. They don't like being sold. They don't like being pressured. And it's just a different environment. You get out of this competition thread and you get into this 1 on 1 message. And people like feeling like they're the center of the universe so you just make them feel that way.  [Nathan]: I agree.  [Chris]: Good so I like being right. [Christian]: So awkward silence yeah. How do you sum up this episode? What are your takeaways here other than don't be annoying? [Chris]: Yeah I mean we've gotta be careful with our message. It's so easy to get out there and just want to tell everybody that you're in real estate. But I think that agents need to put some thought behind what they're saying. And really think about how it's gonna come across to the people that they're delivering the message to.  We've talked about proving value throughout the history of the show. And I think that now more than ever that's gonna be more and more important. Especially with the rise of the high byer where they're getting ads saying “Hey it's so easy don't deal with all the hassle. Don't deal with being hounded by 100 agents when you comment online. Don't deal with staging or showing or any of that just let us sell it.” And people are so willing to avoid us and to avoid the showings and the solicitations that they're willing to give up 20-30% of the total value of their house just to not do that. And I think that that is absolutely insane. So we've got to shift our focus. Anything else guys? [Christian]: I would say if this is confusing to you as an agent forget everything that's you know your broker or the better agents told you about it in prospecting and hounding people and being top of mind. Just think to yourself “Hey would I like someone else to do this to me?”  If the answer is “No I don't want someone calling me pretending like they care about me just to ask if I am looking to buy or sell this year” well don't do it.  If you don't want someone knocking on your door without you inviting them over, don't [censored] do it. You know I mean like it's really not that hard. Stop making excuses about “Well this is my job and if I don't tell them or bug the [censored] out of people, if I am not annoying than I am not doing my job”. Well figure out how to do it not annoying or you will find another job to do.  [Chris]: And I'll just add on to that because calling is important. It's not to say “Don't call your prospects” but when you call them don't say “Hey do you…I can sell your house. I can do this”. [Nathan]: [laughter] Don't lead with that.  [Christian] Provide some value. Yeah. [Chris]: You know provide value. “Hey what can I do to help? I am sure you're getting a million calls right now” or “It's been a while since we've touched base. What…Where are you in the process?”. Make it about them. [Christian] Right and I will add. The value is not you calling them as an agent. You know I have had…I have seen online threads where basically an agent has been told their whole career to provide value but they don't know what that is. They think just them showing up is them providing value.  You know like it's…It reminds me of the scene from Office Space where you know the guy is being grilled like “What exactly did you say you do here?” “I AM A PEOPLE PERSON. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!” [laughter]. “I PROVIDE VALUE. WHY CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT?” Like you're probably not providing value if people can't see that. [Chris]: Exactly. [Nathan]: Amen. Cool.  [Chris]: Hey any final words? [Nathan]: No. Don't be annoying. I agree that what Christian said, if it would bother you than you probably shouldn't be doing that. Just what sounds like common sense is really not common sense or maybe is that whole adage of the easiest thing to do are the hardest things to get done.  [Chris]: I like it. Alright. Well everybody thank you so much for tuning into our 50th episode of Re:Think Real Estate. We appreciate you tuning in and listening. If you haven't yet please go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe so you never miss and episode and give us a 5 star review on iTunes and Google Play. We'll catch you next week. Cool.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this weeks episode of the Re:Think Real Estate  Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch, K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Learn to stop wasting your time and money. Reign in your focus as a real estate professional and double down on things that will make you money in 2019. Today we discuss where agents are making their mistakes. We share how agents can refocus their efforts on what they're currently doing and how they can change their direction to make more of an impact in their business. Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 33:57 RTRE 43 – Stop Wasting Time and Money [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian, Nate and this week we're talking about shiny objects and things that real estate agents waste their money on. [Christian]:  And time. [Chris]:  And time. OK let's do that again [laughter].I have run out of words today. Christian start us off man. What are agents wasting their time and money on? [Christian]:  Hi. I think it depends on if you're a brand new agent in the business or if you're a veteran. If you're brand new you should be focusing on sales. Spending much of money on IDX websites, waste on time and money. It…because it's…everything that is expensive and doesn't directly co-relate to new sales, new agents should not be doing. But I think it is very sexy when people say “Hey you need a website, you need this, you need that, you need to buy leads”. Don't do any of that.  Like that's all maybe once you built up your business and you have the experience to be able to convert leads maybe you can do that but I think initially it should be a lot of new tech network, thinks that are cheap and easy and free which is gonna be social media profiles, you're getting out to you know community events, reaching up to people you know already via email, phone calls, that kind of thing. Those are several in one but the first thing I am thinking of is like a website or something that people tell you need to do but probably isn't the best use of your time or money to get sales now. Thinking of business now. [Chris]:  So I am gonna agree and disagree with you at the same time.  [Nathan]:  Well you're wrong. [Chris]:  [laughter] I don't know about all that. So I think you're right for most agents. You know if somebody comes in and they just buy a website and do nothing with it, right. It's a waste of money. If somebody is gonna come in and run as part of building that business, if they're coming in as a new agent or even an experienced agent, if you're doing the right way, you have landing pages, you're going out doing ads, lead capture… [Christian]:  No agent does that unless they're coming from a professional marketing background no agent is gonna do that. [Chris]:  People do that. People do that. I try… [Christian]:  Maybe one person. Maybe one person that has an actual conversion rate on their website that is a brand new agent spend money on that. [Chris]:  They're not brand new agents. [Christian]:  Well there you go. I said as a brand new agent. If you're experienced and you've got some runway to go OK that's a project that you can work on and you have some money to spend but that's not gonna get you business in your first year.  [Chris]:  Yeah and that's why I am agreeing and disagreeing. [Christian]:  OK. [Chris]:  Because the website could be, it can be a business hub, right? It is not something that you need right away but it can be an extremely well utilized source of revenue for agents if they do it right. It can also be a supporting piece for their marketing collateral that they create and they're putting in front of people. So…But… [Christian]:  Eventually yeah. [Chris]:  But most agents in my experience, there was a time when I paid for 20 professionally done websites, gave them to 20 of my agents, one of them updated their bio. Like completely waste of money. So I agree with you for 99% of the agents. They never gonna use it. Whatever their profile is on the MLS is whatever they need.  [Christian]:  Right. Well and I say that also understanding that even if you do a website and you're doing all the right stuff I mean I think statistically it is like across you know the whole nation, it's like 10% of business comes from people's websites. And that's in the high end. That's if you're killing it. That's if you have actual quality SEO. And… [Chris]:  Visitors [laughter]. [Christian]:  And marketing is good. And they're actually doing everything right. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Christian]:  And most agents don't do that. [Chris]:  So instead of doing a website, instead of doing a website right off the back Christian what would you recommend they start with?  [Christian]:  I say spend your time and energy getting your database together, so that you can set a mail chain for something similar and get in front of the people who already know they can trust you as opposed to trying to reach people that don't know you from you know, Adam and it's gonna be a much harder sale, much harder conversion. Take a longer, lumber longer you know to convert.  So you know go for the low hanging fruit and you gotta let people know and that's through social media, through mail chain, thorough that kind of stuff. And that's all free. Cheap. And just requires some time. [Chris]:  Absolutely. [Christian]:  Because as you get busier your time is gonna become more value and you have less of it but you have more money. And you can switch 2 things that are gonna take more money to get set up and more of a long term marketing strategy. [Chris]:  Oh yeah and I think instead of having a website right off the back you can create a Facebook business page and still have all of the lead capture features that a website is gonna give you if you just run Facebook lead ads. [Christian]:  True story. [Chris]:  And any conversion system is gonna have Facebook ads as part of that whether you push them to your website or your business page. That's just a personal preference based off of what you have out there. So you can easily replace the website initially with a Facebook business page. [Christian]:  True.  [Chris]:  Gives you the stats, the insight, so all the analytics too once you get 100 followers. So definitely. Definitely. [Christian]:  If you have a place to you know have your persona and drive traffic to. [Chris]:  Nate what is one thing that you think real estate agents are wasting their time and money on? [Nathan]:  They're wasting their time on time. I don't know if that makes sense but it makes a lot of it to me. Why? And what I mean by that is they don't have the product. They don't have any direction. They're literally like that ship, that went out to the bay but it never reached the ocean. They don't have a plan. They have not thought about what they're doing. Right? I mean I know Chris you know what you have been doing lately. I know what I do.  You know you wake up with a sense of purpose every day and we know the direction we're going. I know the direction that my ship is pointing from when I get up at 4:45 in the morning. Versus you got all these other agents. I can't tell you the [censored] callus time I have talked to somebody and I am  like “Hey what are you up to today? What are you up to today?”. And that's another agent. And they'll be like “Oh nothing”. And that is a common response.  Well [censored]. Nothing yields nothing. You don't have to be a genius to figure that out so stop wasting your time. Either do what you set up to do and…or at least develop a plan on how to do that and achieve it. I…you know…So stop wasting time. That's what they're doing. Wasting time.  [Chris]:  Zero plan. Zero equals zero. [Nathan]:  Yes I mean it's you know it's a zero sum game. Right you know it's like when I was fat I didn't just lose fat by doing nothing right? I had to go on and do something. I had to develop a plan. Well you're not gonna go sell a [censored] house without a plan. I mean you might get lucky but you know you're throw [censored] against the wall, it will stick. So… [Chris]:  I thought that's all real estate agents in the business.  [Nathan]:  Yeah right I just… [Chris]: They think they're just gonna list it and sell their house. There… [Nathan]:  Yeah right. So… [Christian]:  Well I was gonna say the other side of the coin on that, you know like you wanna have a plan whether you're new or realizing that your business is disorganized and you need something to give you direction. The other side of the coin to that is analysis, paralysis. Where you're always waiting to your ducks in a row, you do too much planning and you think everything is perfect before you execute. You need to execute while you're planning. Planning execute. It's a cycle not like I have this done where I can now start getting business, you know. I commonly see that where they're always planning and they always got something they have to do before they can actually get in front of their clients. [Chris]:  For everyone who wants to learn more about business planning and how we do it go to our website rtrepodcast.com and check out episode 40 which is our 2019 business planning episode. So it's a few weeks back. [Nathan]:  Right.  [Chris]:  But I gotta agree with you. People come into this and a lot…I think Bufenian [phonetics] company, on one of Brian Bufeny [phonetics] podcast. He said that they did a study. And in that study they tracked the time management of real estate agents that were working from home. And they found that on average like 0.5% of the time was spend on income generating activity. And here's why.  Because when you're working from home for somebody who is not monitored, who has zero accountability in the activities that they're supposed to do, when they get faced with getting the kids off to school, coming down, sitting down and then they look around and they're like “I gotta vacuum”. So they vacuum and they sit down and they're like “Gotta get the laundry going.” And they do that and they constantly find something to distract them from making calls.  And I am not talking about expires or foosballs I am just talking about calling your sphere. Warm calling. Calling to let people know that you're doing what you're doing and trying to set appointments to get referrals. It doesn't have to be cold calling. But nobody does it. So on average the income generating activities that are done by real estate agents that are not in an office, less than 1%. It's ridiculous. [Christian]:  Yeah and kind of going along that same, I am feeling a theme here of wasted unaccountable time. And one of the big ones, and this is a little tricky because really if you start off with your planning and your tensionality, time blocking, whatever tool you use to account for and manage your time so that like you know like a prior guest you know was talking about, it's all your focus and intensity of focus not the amount of time you spend. So like there's very real place for social media in your networking and connecting and getting the message out there. But you should be like “OK this is my 50 message off in a half hour and then turn off”. Don't be on social media all day long because they will sap your productivity. I guess. [Chris]:  Definitely. [Nathan]:  Man this is yeah I agree with Christian here and common theme I guess where we're going with this. But I am reading a book here now, by an author named Peter Changman [phonetics]. And it talks faster than normal, turbo charge your focus, productivity and success would be the secrets of an 88 charge de-brain ADX my brain right. So we'll use me as an example.  What have we talked about here in several episodes that I have yet to do and complete? My CRM right and get that updated. And I was struggling with that. And continue to struggle but finally started to get things done on it and I took it out of the book and figured how to get that done and for me what I had to do is set a deadline. You know I can have like you know Christian said I was the king of you know I plan on doing it, right. Write it on the list even but once I started putting deadlines on when I needed things done my…the way my brain worked at least was “Alright you gotta get it done and you got until this date to do it”.  So for me that works and I think part of it is you know than you can get into further and say “What are those triggers?” And you have to figure out for yourself what works and I knew for me if I didn't have a date I wasn't gonna get it done. So when I do a lot of my planning now I do a put dates behind it because than I am working towards a completion date and it helps me stay on track for where I need to be. Therefore, I am not wasting my time. So… [Christian]:  Yeah well you can take that to micro level and use an app or regular timer to say “Hey here is my hour to do this project and have it counted down. So it creates that artificial timeline that kind of forces you to focus. So… [Chris]:  Sense of an urgency. [Christian]:  Yeah exactly. [Chris]:  Yeah. [Nathan]:  Yeah you gotta know what those distractions are you know. I…you know like for me distractions are the lower but after I read the book, impressive how he wrote the book. He knew he wasn't gonna get it done so he booked a round trips fly to China and back. And just [laughter] flew out, flew back and he got the book done. Than he got even more distracted right. You know you don't have to go down the extreme but if that is what it takes, that's what it takes. [Chris]:  You know that is impressive I gotta say. [Christian]:  Yeah. [Chris]:  All right so one thing that I think agents are wasting their time on, and their effort and their money is spending time with vendors, spending time going out getting coffee with your title rap or your home warranty person or the lendors that are begging you for business. Taking those meetings as an agent is just a complete waste of time. What do you guys think? [Christian]:  I, I tend to agree and I will take it one step further. Where there…I don't know about you guys but I get inner dated you know I work my best to keep my email clean you know unsubscribe from everything that ends up in there. But I get inner dated with marketing people and you know LinkedIn connections and basically all these people that want to sell me something.  And with my mentality I am like you know I have got stuff in place that works. I don't need to perpetually be spending my time entertaining “Well maybe this is a little better, maybe this time title company that…” I have got people that unless we have a pinpoint that needs to be fixed you know like you said you're wasting your time is taking out an hour ago meet with coffee with a new lender that you know is trying to sell you on you know their products over whoever someone else's.  You only have so much time in a day, don't spend it entertaining meetings that aren't going to…you know people are gonna try and ask you for your money. [Nathan]:  I agree and disagree and I think this goes back to what Christian said earlier.  I think that is where you are in your business. If people are a new agents those relationships aren't doing anything for you at the moment. Give them business and then you can nurture those relationships. If you're an established agent than yeah taking those meetings, I do that all the time now but I am established.  I took a gazillion of them when I was new. The thing was none of those helped me getting new business. Yeah. [Christian]:  Yeah they're not gonna lead to new business by themselves so… [Nathan]:  Yeah yeah. Exactly. [Chris]:  Yeah. This is one of the reasons why you know when we started doing team meetings and team training we made it clear that outside vendors were not coming in. Because with about 100 agents I have people calling me all the time wanting to get in our sales meetings. “Oh we'll bring breakfast, we just want 15 minutes”.  “I have my agents for an hour. I am not gonna waste 15 minutes of that hour letting you pitch them on something that they don't need to be spending their money on. They don't need to be buying a magazine. They can be doing other things to build their client base. They don't need your website or shiny object or social media tools so that they can manage all.”  Now granted when a lot of people do need those things but for the most part as new agents, people that are growing their business they don't need that stuff. And when they do get up to the point where they need those meetings, those coffees with lenders and marketing people they've got money to spend and that's fine. But off the back just it's a complete waste of time. Just anything that is not getting you directly in front of a client or mailing it so that when you do get in front of a client you are polished and professional; and they want to do business with you, anything other than that not worth it. It's a waste of time. [Nathan]:  I got another one that you all are gonna disagree with me on that. But… [Chris]:  I love disagreeing. [Nathan]:  Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. What are people wasting their time on? They are wasting their time on Facebook.  [Chris]:  You're wrong. [laughter] [Nathan]:  I…This [crosstalk] [censored] standing concept in what you're trying to do, I use it as an example Chris. I watch X,Y because you stuck with it. You continue to do it. Then I see these others kind of one head wonders or they do it twice or 3 times, the content sucks. It's got no purpose, no meaning behind it. Just stop. Like you know, 1-just quit. Find another angle but don't be that guy or gal on Facebook if you would because it just gives me some stuff. It's…put some thought. I have a great time but it causes a distraction for me watching your really horrible Facebook post.  So get off Facebook if you're not good at. It's just another one of those things that if you're a new agent and you're on there going weekly as an agent I don't know, it just doesn't do anything for me. And there's gonna be several people out there that I am you know they're gonna say Facebook is the amazement of the world. I will say this and I will challenge anybody.  I had a lender comment a week ago who said “Let's get on Facebook” and I said no. I want to do what's next and here is my belief in what's next. And it's already happening. Is an Instagram app. Why? I look at all the women in my neighborhood that my wife is friends with. And they got off of Facebook, took it off their phones. Have chosen to go to Instagram. And I have asked all of them why. And they said “You know why because there is no [censored] and complaining, there is no whining, theirs is no…” you know any of the negativity. So they have chosen to go to the Instagram realm and Facebook is a thing of the past. So what's next? Maybe, maybe we are already seeing it. [Chris]:  I think that Facebook is going to be around but the extent to which people use Facebook is way more than it needs to be. And I am so guilty of it. Over the last 7 days, 6 hours on Facebook, screen time. [Christian]:  That's disgusting. [Chris]:  I hate this app. I hate the fact that my phone tells me, it judges me and says “This is what you're going”. Now granted a lot of that, primarily most of that is work related, it's keeping up what the conversation is amongst other brokers. It's posting content with other brokers and it's having conversation in those groups. I am not sitting there you know taking quizzes on what cats are. But it's about an hour a day. That's… [Christian]:  You spend that much time on the toilet? That's amazing. [laughter] Or is it just me? That's where I spend most of my Facebook time. [Chris]:  Well I've got 3 kids. So I am trying to you know you've gotta hide. [crosstalk] “Sorry, busy can't come out [laughter]”. No it's…but seriously look at your screen time people because I have and… [Nathan]:  I just…I just did. I am actually proud of myself.  [Chris]:  Yeah? [Nathan]:  Yeah 3 hours in the last 7 days. [Chris]:  Good for you. That's half of the amount I have spent so I am working to spend less and less time doing that. Most of my time is spend mailing messages and then granted, in Instagram. So…But seriously doing that stuff like Facebook, the network, there is a ton of potential there. I would be lying if I said I never got business off of it. But the extent to which most of us use it is just way more than it needs to be. And even with Instagram. You put that much time in Instagram. How many pictures do you need to look at in a day?  So back to, back to the topic at hand. What Christian…anything else? What things are real estate agents wasting their time or money on? What are…Because we spend a lot about time. What are agents wasting their money on?  [Christian]:  I mean this one is kind of controversial but in general buying leads is a waste of time and money. Obviously it kind of depends where they are coming from and stuff but by in large you know I think it's really expensive even if you have a perfect system in place. Otherwise it's really low. The conversion is really low and takes a lot of time.  You know I am more of an organic guy you know like if you…you know if you're gonna built your business being totally based on someone else being able to turn on and off a funnel controlling the quality of those and where those are coming from I don't think that is super sustainable. You know I know some teams here locally that like that's their business. You know, and they spend you know, multiple you know 50-60 thousand in Zillow leads and they're hurting because they're conversion is low and their ROIs is even lower than it has been.  Because of you know, Zillow kind of going through some of their figuring out you know what kind of lead services they're gonna provide and you know and I think like you're talking about with Instagram kind of being the new sexy and you know people going over there. Yeah there's still place for Facebook but the market shifts, the user you know how people use Facebook or Instagram or Zillow that shifts based on the market, based on whether or not…yeah I mean it's shifting you know. 10 years ago Zillow leads were a lot more valuable because there was a lot more people willing to give information out. Nowadays people just want the information but they don't want to put the information out there. I mean like that's… I know from myself my ideal contract is not someone who is naïve enough “I want the information on this house I am going to give you my email and my phone number and my real name”. You're not gonna do that. That's stupid. You know, because they don't want someone calling them because they're not actually in the market buying a house and that's you know 98% of leads who buy form realtor or Zillow is not a real lead. Is gonna be you know as Bufeny [phonetics] says “It's not a lead, that's you know a touchpoint when someone is going to the age”. That's someone curious you know not someone who is ready to buy. So you're gonna spend a lot of time sifting through that for one deal. Like it's not usually worth it. [Chris]:  It's interesting that you bring that up because I have that same kind of thought process before we started doing some work with Zillow and now granted our business model is not run solely off of them but we are…we are a premiere broker with them. And for anybody you know in our audience if you're interested in the premiere broker program just shoot me an email Christ@sellectrealty.com. Two “L”s in Sellect. I am happy to talk to you about it. But there are solid numbers and after running it for 3 weeks now we've got 3 homes in the contract. Those are 3 properties that my agents would have not had otherwise. It's additional revenue to the company. More than covers the cost of the lead generation that we've done. [Christian]:  Does it cover your agents' time they spend in converting them? I mean you've got the hard cost of leads but what are they doing? 8 hours a day… [Chris]:  They're not doing 8 hours a day. They're at about an 11% and conversion rate. Well actually it's higher than that. We've had…We're probably running about a 13%  conversion at a premier broker program. We've had about 22 leads come in and 300 contract so far and 2 active buyers and 3 that are thinking about looking next year that are in conversation. So there's…we're doing it really well. We're putting a lot of time and effort into planning how we're gonna…How we have it set up. [Christian]:  Sure. [Chris]:  And there's a lot of accountability in place with us and I think where people get tied up with lead generation and online lead providers is that accountability factor. There's another agent friend of mine, he is with KW we both went to the knights of Columbus together. You know he, he would go up to spending 300.000 a year on it as long as the ROI is there. And he just closed 3 or 4 buyers this month or last month now. They were all Zillow leads and it's giving him the ROI.  So the…trick with doing Zillow leads or any other lead provider is making sure that you're strategic about it. Trying to find areas that are gonna give you a higher ROI than maybe aiming for the most expensive neighborhood. Right. So there's a lot that goes into it. But I do agree with you. It should not be your full business model. 80% of all deals in real estate are done through people's individual networks and it should remain that way. But as a supplement tool, a way to help new agents grow their business or a way to help agents that are just coming in, if they do it right and they have the right training and the right tools it can be… [Christian]:  If you've set up the right systems and accountability… [Chris]:  It can be beneficial. [Christian]:  You can make it work. [Chris]:  That's the trick. That is the trick 100%. If it's done properly. The problem is most people don't do it properly.  [Christian]:  Right. Well the other problem is new agents come in and they're told “Hey go do this.” You're not gonna…as a new agent you're gonna be out of money before you get your first conversion.  [Chris]:  Right. I wish I could do a mic drop but it's in the thing [laughter]. But yeah. [Christian]:  You probably need big numbers for Zillow to be sending you, you know looking at the average numbers you're talking 2% you're talking you know 100 leads before you get one that converts. [Chris]:  Yeah and that's on row. The 100 leads on row. We're not doing row. We're in the premiere broker program so we have the concierge that is supporting us and helping us and we have…there's the trainers and all sort of stuff. I probably would never have done premiere agent as a solo but as broker I think that the premiere broker program is excellent. [Christian]:  Sure. [Chris]:  And I have been very happy with it so far so…I will be an advocate and haven't closed anything yet but again with 3 weeks in and we've got 300 contracts so if I…Hell if I average 1 closing a week off of this thing than I'm gonna be doubling down. Like…but so far we're just kind of waiting to see. So yes and no. I am kind of in agreement but kind of not. Nate what do you think? You're Redfin partner agent so you're got a little different aspect. [Nathan]:  Redfin partner agent, former Zillow premier agent. My ROI with the Zillow PA program was [censored] so I terminated it. Hopefully I am still a part of one of their small groups that operate, that they seek out agent advice in what direction they're gonna take the premiere agent program on…I again prefer Redfin just because I play on the back end when I close a deal. It's 30%. Again I don't think it's a bad deal. Again I think it depends on your situation. I am on a flat fee model so premiere works and it comes with it. But if you own a 70-30 split than a team split that's probably not right for you. So…you know. [Christian]:  So getting back on topic Nathan do you have any more rants with agents wasting their time and money on?  [Nathan]:  Time Facebook. What else do they waste their time on? We waste our time on a lot of silly things. Again Travis Robertson talks about you know squirrel. We're just distracted like that it doesn't matter right. We're always looking for the next best thing instead of just taking what we have and using that and giving it time to…allow it time to work for us.  I think we're all guilty of getting something and going 2 months later “Well that didn't work”. Well months is not enough time to judge if something works or doesn't work. You know we have talked about this forum and set it. When we started this podcast we said 100 episodes. Because we wouldn't be able to judge anything in 30. But we're just over that. [Christian]:  I judge you guys all the time though. But…Oh that's not what I am talking about. [Nathan]:  That's very true so again… [Chris]:  We'll see how long we make it Christian [laughter].  [Nathan]:  Stop wasting time. That's my big one. It's one I have struggled with. I still struggle with you know find things that work for you. And you know I heard you guys the last week we're talking about…Oh Gosh what was it. Oh it hit me after we're done recording this but I don't know. Something I said in last week's episode that I was not part of. [Chris]:  Last week we were talking about Christian pivoting. [Nathan]:  Oh right you I think Christian had mentioned something about sometimes when you take a break from something and you come back to it you look at it different, right? And so you may be able to find something that didn't work before but works now. So again yeah you may have to pivot. Zillow didn't work for me. When I go back to it if they change the structure probably maybe my attitude will be different. I don't know.  So just kind of parlor up what you talked about last week. Yeah sometimes you do have to pivot and you've got to shift and if not you got still in all. But I don't know time is a big thing with me right now because I am still trying to understand how to manage my time the best and that's between being a dad, being a husband and being a realtor and then wanting to do my own thing. So…Don't get distracted by your own time.  [Chris]:  Alright, well I think that we've kind of given a lot to rant about today in what we think is wasting time and money for agents in the real estate base. Guys before we wrap up for the day, any final thoughts for our audience? [Christian]:  Nope [laughter]. [Nathan]:  Is this going out before the end of the year? [Chris]:  This is going out before the end of the year. [Nathan]:  Well than have an awesome rest of 2018. I hope everybody has already started to think about 2019. If you haven't, than you need to get on it. But I hope that any of our listeners just an awesome holiday period. Great Christmas. Great New Year and just with a great close out to what has been a good year for all of us here and then I hope that everybody that listens and that I share this with that you have a great start of 2019. [Christian]:  Word. Merry Christmas and Happy New year. [Chris]:  Merry Christmas. Happy New year. This is gonna be our last episode for 2018. So we will see you bright and early in 2019. We hope that you have a very blessed Christmas, new year and hit the ground running as soon as we get back. Talk soon everybody. Have a great year.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Panel: Chris Fritz Charles Max Wood In this episode, the panel consists of Chris and Charles who talk about developer freedom. Chuck talks about his new show called The DevRev. The guys also talk about time management, answering e-mails, being self-employed, and their goals/hopes/dreams that they want to achieve in life. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 0:30 – Chuck: Hi! Today our panel is Chris and myself. My new show is The DevRev. There is a lot of aspect of our job that boil down to freedom. Figure out what they like to do and eliminate the things that they don’t like to do. I think it will be 5x a week and I will have a guest every week. What does freedom mean to you? What is your ideal coding situation where you don’t starve? 2:10 – Chris: Let me take a step-back. Why I got into coding it was even before that and it was education. I wanted to work with schools and not necessarily tied to only one school. As a programmer I cannot be asked to do things that I don’t agree with. 3:21 – Chuck: A lot of this thought-process came up b/c of my initial steps into my self-employment. I wanted to go to my son’s activities. I saw freelancing as an option and then had to do that b/c I got laid-off. I hate being told what to do. I have an HOA in my neighborhood and I hate it. They tell me when and how to mow my lawn. This is how I operate it. I hate that they tell me to mow my lawn. I want to talk to people who I want to talk to – that’s my idea of freedom. Everyone’s different idea of what “freedom” is will be different. 5:36 – Chris: I want more time to create more free stuff. Chris talks about DEV experience. 6:28 – Chuck: How did you get to that point of figuring out what you want to do? 6:44 – Chris: I still am figuring that out. I do have a lot of opportunities that are really exciting for me. It’s deciding what I like at that moment and choosing what I want to do vs. not what is going to wear me down. I don’t want to die with regret. There is a distinction between bad tired and good tired. You weren’t true to what you thought was right – and so you don’t settle easy. You toss and turn. I want to end with “good tired” both for the end of the day and for the end of my life. 8:00 – Chuck: I agree with that and I really identify with that. 8:44 – Chris: How do you measure yourself? 8:54 – Chuck: It’s hard to quantify it in only one idea. It’s hard to measure. I list out 5 things I need to do to get me closer to my [one] big goal. I have to get those 5 things done. Most of the time I can make it and I keep grinding on it before I can be done. 9:51 – Chris: My bar is pretty low. Is there more joy / more happiness in the world today in the world b/c of what I’ve done today? I know I will make mistakes in code – and that hurts, no day will be perfect. I try to have a net positive affect everyday. 10:53 – Chris: I can fall easily into depression if I have too many bad days back-to-back. 11:03 – Chuck: I agree and I have to take time off if that happens. 11:13 – Chris talks about open source work and he mentions HOPE IN SOURCE, also Babel. 12:23 – Chuck: When I got to church and there is this component of being together and working towards the same goals. It’s more than just community. There is a real – something in common that we have. 12:57 – Chris: Do you think it’s similar to open source? 13:05 – Chuck: You can watch a podcast in-lieu of an actual in-person sermon. In my church community it’s – Building Each Other Up. It’s not the same for when I contribute to open source. 13:43 – Chris: I ask myself: Is it of value? If I were to die would that work help progress the humankind? By the time I die - I will be completely useless b/c everything in my head is out there in other peoples’ heads. 14:35 – Chuck: When I am gone – I want someone to step into my void and continue that. These shows should be able to go on even if I am not around. I want to make sure that these shows can keep going. 15:48 – Chris: How can we build each other up? We want to have opportunities to grow. I try to provide that for members of the team and vice versa. The amount of respect that I have seen in my communities is quite amazing. I admire Thorsten on the Vue team a lot. (Thorsten’s Twitter.) He talked about compassion and how to communicate with each other and code with compassion. That’s better community and better software. You are forced to thin from multiple perspectives. You want to learn from these various perspectives. 17:44 – Chuck: The ideas behind the camaraderie are great. 17:56 – Chris: And Sarah Drasner! 18:38 – Chuck: She probably feels fulfilled when she helps you out (Sarah). 18:54 – Chuck: We all have to look for those opportunities and take them! 19:08 – Chuck: We have been talking about personal fulfillment. For me writing some awesome code in Vue there is Boiler Plate or running the tests. 19:52 – Chuck: What tools light you up? 20:02 – Chris: I am a bit of a weirdo. I feel pretty good when I am hitting myself against a wall for 9 hours. I like feeling obsessed about something and defeating it. I love it. 21:21 – Chuck: The things that make you bang your head against the wall is awful for me. I like writing code that helps someone. (Chris: I like the challenge.) We will be charged up for different things. You like the challenge and it empowers me to help others out. 22:21 – Chris: I like learning more about how something works. I want to save people a lot of work. There has to be a social connection or I will have a hard time even attempting it. 22:52 – Chris: I also play video games where there are no social connections. I played the Witness a few months ago and I loved the puzzles. 23:45 – Chuck: What other tools are you using? 23:57 – Chris: Webpack is the best took for creating the ideal development scenario. 24:47 – Chuck mentions Boiler Plate. 25:00 – Chris: It was built to help large teams and/or large applications.  I built some other projects like: Hello Vue Components & (with John Papa) Vue Monolith Example. 27:07 – Chuck: Anything else that you consider to be “freeing?” 27:13 – Chris: I like working from home. I like having my routines – they make me happy and productive. Having full control over that makes me happy. The only thing I have is my wife and my cat. 28:12 – Chuck: Yeah I don’t miss driving through traffic. 28:44 – Chris: I don’t like to be around people all day. 30:40 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 31:05 – Chris: Online I get a couple dozen people reaching out to me for different things: completely out-of-the-blue. I want to respond to most of those people but... 33:12 – Chuck: If it’s not on my calendar it won’t happen. I will get those e-mails that can be very time consuming. 33:35 – Chris: When they are asking for something “simple” – it’s not always simple. 34:30 – Chuck: I want to help everybody and that can be a problem. 35:02 – Chris: They are reaching out to me and I want to help. 35:56 – Chuck and Chris go back-and-forth. 36:18 – Chris: How do you figure out how to write a short enough response to the email – to only do 30 minutes? 36:44 – Chuck: Can I answer it in one minute? Nope – so it will go into another pile later in the week. I’ve replied saying: Here is my short-answer and for the long-answer see these references. I star those e-mails that will take too long to respond. 37:50 – Chris and Chuck go back-and-forth. 38:06 – Chuck: Your question is so good – here is the link to the blog that I wrote. 38:37 – Chris: I want to document to point people HERE to past blogs that I’ve written or to someone else’s blog. I feel guilty when I have to delegate. 39:35 – Chuck: I don’t have a problem delegating b/c that’s why I’m paying them. Everyone has his or her own role.  40:40 – Chris: Yeah that makes sense when it’s their job. 41:30 – Chuck: I know working together as a team will free me up in my areas of excellence. 41:49 – Chris: I am having a hard time with this right now. 43:36 – Chuck: We are looking for someone to fill this role and this is the job description. This way you can be EXCELLENT at what you do. You aren’t being pulled too thin. 44:19 – Chris: I have been trying to delegate more. 45:04 – Chuck: Yeah I have been trying to do more with my business, too. What do I want to do in the community? What is my focus? What is my mission and values for the business? Then you knock it out of the park! 45:51 – Chris: As a teacher it is really helpful and really not helpful. You are leading and shaping their experiences. You don’t have options to delegate. 46:27 – Chuck: Yeah my mother is a math teacher. 46:37 – Chuck: Yeah she has 10 kids, so she helps to delegate with force. She is the department head for mathematics and she does delegate some things. It’s you to teach the course. 47:18 – Chris: What promoted you to start this podcast? Is it more personal? 47:30 – Chuck talks about why he is starting this new podcast. 48:10 – Chuck: My business coach said to me: write a mission statement. When I did that things started having clarity for me. Chuck talks about the plan for the DevRev! 55:20 – Chris: I am looking forward to it! 55:34 – Chuck: It will be recorded via video through YouTube, too, in addition to iTunes (hopefully). 55:52 – Chris & Chuck: Picks! 55:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React JavaScript C# C++ C++ Programming / Memory Management Angular Blazor JavaScript DevChat TV VueCLI Boiler Plate Hello Vue Components Vue Monolith Example Thorsten’s Twitter Sarah’s Twitter Ben Hong’s Twitter Jacob Schatz’ Twitter Vue Vixens The DevRev Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Chris Vue Vixens Charles repurpose.io MFCEO Project Podcast Game - Test Version

Panel: Chris Fritz Charles Max Wood In this episode, the panel consists of Chris and Charles who talk about developer freedom. Chuck talks about his new show called The DevRev. The guys also talk about time management, answering e-mails, being self-employed, and their goals/hopes/dreams that they want to achieve in life. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 0:30 – Chuck: Hi! Today our panel is Chris and myself. My new show is The DevRev. There is a lot of aspect of our job that boil down to freedom. Figure out what they like to do and eliminate the things that they don’t like to do. I think it will be 5x a week and I will have a guest every week. What does freedom mean to you? What is your ideal coding situation where you don’t starve? 2:10 – Chris: Let me take a step-back. Why I got into coding it was even before that and it was education. I wanted to work with schools and not necessarily tied to only one school. As a programmer I cannot be asked to do things that I don’t agree with. 3:21 – Chuck: A lot of this thought-process came up b/c of my initial steps into my self-employment. I wanted to go to my son’s activities. I saw freelancing as an option and then had to do that b/c I got laid-off. I hate being told what to do. I have an HOA in my neighborhood and I hate it. They tell me when and how to mow my lawn. This is how I operate it. I hate that they tell me to mow my lawn. I want to talk to people who I want to talk to – that’s my idea of freedom. Everyone’s different idea of what “freedom” is will be different. 5:36 – Chris: I want more time to create more free stuff. Chris talks about DEV experience. 6:28 – Chuck: How did you get to that point of figuring out what you want to do? 6:44 – Chris: I still am figuring that out. I do have a lot of opportunities that are really exciting for me. It’s deciding what I like at that moment and choosing what I want to do vs. not what is going to wear me down. I don’t want to die with regret. There is a distinction between bad tired and good tired. You weren’t true to what you thought was right – and so you don’t settle easy. You toss and turn. I want to end with “good tired” both for the end of the day and for the end of my life. 8:00 – Chuck: I agree with that and I really identify with that. 8:44 – Chris: How do you measure yourself? 8:54 – Chuck: It’s hard to quantify it in only one idea. It’s hard to measure. I list out 5 things I need to do to get me closer to my [one] big goal. I have to get those 5 things done. Most of the time I can make it and I keep grinding on it before I can be done. 9:51 – Chris: My bar is pretty low. Is there more joy / more happiness in the world today in the world b/c of what I’ve done today? I know I will make mistakes in code – and that hurts, no day will be perfect. I try to have a net positive affect everyday. 10:53 – Chris: I can fall easily into depression if I have too many bad days back-to-back. 11:03 – Chuck: I agree and I have to take time off if that happens. 11:13 – Chris talks about open source work and he mentions HOPE IN SOURCE, also Babel. 12:23 – Chuck: When I got to church and there is this component of being together and working towards the same goals. It’s more than just community. There is a real – something in common that we have. 12:57 – Chris: Do you think it’s similar to open source? 13:05 – Chuck: You can watch a podcast in-lieu of an actual in-person sermon. In my church community it’s – Building Each Other Up. It’s not the same for when I contribute to open source. 13:43 – Chris: I ask myself: Is it of value? If I were to die would that work help progress the humankind? By the time I die - I will be completely useless b/c everything in my head is out there in other peoples’ heads. 14:35 – Chuck: When I am gone – I want someone to step into my void and continue that. These shows should be able to go on even if I am not around. I want to make sure that these shows can keep going. 15:48 – Chris: How can we build each other up? We want to have opportunities to grow. I try to provide that for members of the team and vice versa. The amount of respect that I have seen in my communities is quite amazing. I admire Thorsten on the Vue team a lot. (Thorsten’s Twitter.) He talked about compassion and how to communicate with each other and code with compassion. That’s better community and better software. You are forced to thin from multiple perspectives. You want to learn from these various perspectives. 17:44 – Chuck: The ideas behind the camaraderie are great. 17:56 – Chris: And Sarah Drasner! 18:38 – Chuck: She probably feels fulfilled when she helps you out (Sarah). 18:54 – Chuck: We all have to look for those opportunities and take them! 19:08 – Chuck: We have been talking about personal fulfillment. For me writing some awesome code in Vue there is Boiler Plate or running the tests. 19:52 – Chuck: What tools light you up? 20:02 – Chris: I am a bit of a weirdo. I feel pretty good when I am hitting myself against a wall for 9 hours. I like feeling obsessed about something and defeating it. I love it. 21:21 – Chuck: The things that make you bang your head against the wall is awful for me. I like writing code that helps someone. (Chris: I like the challenge.) We will be charged up for different things. You like the challenge and it empowers me to help others out. 22:21 – Chris: I like learning more about how something works. I want to save people a lot of work. There has to be a social connection or I will have a hard time even attempting it. 22:52 – Chris: I also play video games where there are no social connections. I played the Witness a few months ago and I loved the puzzles. 23:45 – Chuck: What other tools are you using? 23:57 – Chris: Webpack is the best took for creating the ideal development scenario. 24:47 – Chuck mentions Boiler Plate. 25:00 – Chris: It was built to help large teams and/or large applications.  I built some other projects like: Hello Vue Components & (with John Papa) Vue Monolith Example. 27:07 – Chuck: Anything else that you consider to be “freeing?” 27:13 – Chris: I like working from home. I like having my routines – they make me happy and productive. Having full control over that makes me happy. The only thing I have is my wife and my cat. 28:12 – Chuck: Yeah I don’t miss driving through traffic. 28:44 – Chris: I don’t like to be around people all day. 30:40 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 31:05 – Chris: Online I get a couple dozen people reaching out to me for different things: completely out-of-the-blue. I want to respond to most of those people but... 33:12 – Chuck: If it’s not on my calendar it won’t happen. I will get those e-mails that can be very time consuming. 33:35 – Chris: When they are asking for something “simple” – it’s not always simple. 34:30 – Chuck: I want to help everybody and that can be a problem. 35:02 – Chris: They are reaching out to me and I want to help. 35:56 – Chuck and Chris go back-and-forth. 36:18 – Chris: How do you figure out how to write a short enough response to the email – to only do 30 minutes? 36:44 – Chuck: Can I answer it in one minute? Nope – so it will go into another pile later in the week. I’ve replied saying: Here is my short-answer and for the long-answer see these references. I star those e-mails that will take too long to respond. 37:50 – Chris and Chuck go back-and-forth. 38:06 – Chuck: Your question is so good – here is the link to the blog that I wrote. 38:37 – Chris: I want to document to point people HERE to past blogs that I’ve written or to someone else’s blog. I feel guilty when I have to delegate. 39:35 – Chuck: I don’t have a problem delegating b/c that’s why I’m paying them. Everyone has his or her own role.  40:40 – Chris: Yeah that makes sense when it’s their job. 41:30 – Chuck: I know working together as a team will free me up in my areas of excellence. 41:49 – Chris: I am having a hard time with this right now. 43:36 – Chuck: We are looking for someone to fill this role and this is the job description. This way you can be EXCELLENT at what you do. You aren’t being pulled too thin. 44:19 – Chris: I have been trying to delegate more. 45:04 – Chuck: Yeah I have been trying to do more with my business, too. What do I want to do in the community? What is my focus? What is my mission and values for the business? Then you knock it out of the park! 45:51 – Chris: As a teacher it is really helpful and really not helpful. You are leading and shaping their experiences. You don’t have options to delegate. 46:27 – Chuck: Yeah my mother is a math teacher. 46:37 – Chuck: Yeah she has 10 kids, so she helps to delegate with force. She is the department head for mathematics and she does delegate some things. It’s you to teach the course. 47:18 – Chris: What promoted you to start this podcast? Is it more personal? 47:30 – Chuck talks about why he is starting this new podcast. 48:10 – Chuck: My business coach said to me: write a mission statement. When I did that things started having clarity for me. Chuck talks about the plan for the DevRev! 55:20 – Chris: I am looking forward to it! 55:34 – Chuck: It will be recorded via video through YouTube, too, in addition to iTunes (hopefully). 55:52 – Chris & Chuck: Picks! 55:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React JavaScript C# C++ C++ Programming / Memory Management Angular Blazor JavaScript DevChat TV VueCLI Boiler Plate Hello Vue Components Vue Monolith Example Thorsten’s Twitter Sarah’s Twitter Ben Hong’s Twitter Jacob Schatz’ Twitter Vue Vixens The DevRev Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Chris Vue Vixens Charles repurpose.io MFCEO Project Podcast Game - Test Version

Panel: Joe Eames Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Special Guest: Guillaume Chau In this episode, the panel talks with Guillaume Chau who is apart of the VueJS core team, a frontend engineer at Livestorm, and an open source contributor. The guest and the panelists talk about plugins, Webpack, Vue CLI, and much more! Check out today’s episode to hear all of the details.  Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:00 – Chris lists who is on the panel along with today’s guest. Chris: Who are you and what are you working on? 1:50 – Guest: I am working on a startup in Paris. I am calling in from Lyon, France. 2:12 – Panel: Late there? 2:15 – Panel: Almost time for dinner? 2:21 – Guest: Yes, it’s cooking now! 2:26 – Panel asks a question. 2:43 – Guest answers the question. 3:14 – Panel: Anyone who didn’t want to be an expert, they don’t’ have to worry about how things tie together – you could help them with their configurations? 3:36 – Guest: A lot of the work is done for you with the configurations so you can start writing your apps. 3:53 – Panel: How is 3 different from 2? 4:06 – Guest: It’s like a new tool entirely. It’s working very different, too, with a different system. It has a different template base.  5:53 – Panel: To combine templates you have to understand it well, like different Webpacks. 6:12 – Guest: Regarding Webpacks and their configurations... 6:52 – Panel: With the template situation there was an issue where they would make their project and as new versions of Webpack came out...and new versions of Babble, and they will have to manage the dependencies of all of these. There might be some plugins that only work with x, y, and z. IT can be frustrating – can version 3 take care of this for you? 7:44 – Guest answers the question. 9:24 – Panel: How do you update plugins? 9:29 – Guest. 10:26 – Panel: Upgrade your plugins then as long as all of your plugins are the same version it’s okay? 10:34 – Guest: Yes. You can upgrade your... 11:38 – Chris: Divya, you just gave a talk (London) on...plugins, right? 11:50 – Divya: Yes. We talked about Webpack configurations. For example, if there are some testing libraries you can essentially setup a UCLI plugin to create a test – create a test folder – plugins let you generate files or folders (structure your project in a certain way). In London I talked about server less functions with... 13:30 – Panel: Any kind of pattern you want to use in different applications you can wrap that up in a plugin? 13:42 – Divya: Yes. Exactly. Instead of repeating yourself you can wrap it up. It’s really handy. 14:00 – Panel asks a question. 14:02 – Divya: You could do that... 14:10 – Panel: ...or a graph QL – Yes! 14:20 – Guest. 14:33 – Chris: Any thing that third-party plugins don’t have access to? 14:43 – Guest. 14:54 – Chris. 15:08 – Guest. 15:25 – Divya: ...if you want a UCLI service...and so you can grab those commands and add-on those commands and using those default commands. You have access to those commands, so you don’t always... 17:02 – Chris: Like deploy? 17:11 – Divya: Yes. 17:17 – Guest. 17:19 – Divya. Divya: Do you have strategies on how you go about testing your plugins? 17:35 – Guest: Yes, I do. 19:23 – Panel: So this is like end-to-end test for a CLI tool? 19:33 – Guest. 19:50 – Panel: Is there documentation for all of this? 19:59 – Guest. 20:14 – Divya: I think the way I’ve done tests is to edit an example a test project as a local dependency and then seeing that it works. I want to make sure that it works. Divya: And the other way I’ve done it is VUE CLI it is undocumented at the moment. You can test your CLI plugin from within the plugin itself. 21:55 – Guest: I’ve used some of those before. 22:08 – Chris: Speaking of the UI that is something I’d love to talk about. It seems unique to me – a CLI tool that has a UI that is built along with it. That seems strange to some people – how does that work and WHY would you need it? 22:42 – Guest: I’ll start with the WHY. It is way more powerful and as a greeter the API interface is more fixable so you can choose different options. For example when you create a project you can set different things. You basically have to name the project and you have simple options to choose form. Now it’s basically a really fixable system with plugins and stuff like that. I thought it would be nice to free it from the terminal. The best way to do that was creating a graphical interface. The main advantage of this was that you could add more information and explanations to what is going on. You can also create better interface. Guest: Also, it currently improves discoverability. 25:30 – Chris: You could do a search in the UI and type in the name of something you are working with and then your plugin would show up in the list – and then it would just be added to their project. That’s nice so they don’t have to go to the NPM or doing the README. 26:07 – Guest. 26:14 – Divya: I think it’s nice b/c I have used it extensively for my plugin. I want to see what hasn’t been taken already. I have a way of organizing my modules and I’ve used to it see what names have already been taken? 26:47 – Guest: I think sometimes... 27:15 – Divya: The feature that you are able to run tasks from the UI is nice. 27:55 – Chris: It sounds like it offers a nicer way to view a lot of things. One of the other advantages (that I found) is that I have a configuration to the listing rules to Vue – you can pick the exact rule set that you want to use. Normally when you look at a configuration file, you don’t know what rule sets are available, you don’t know what options are available. All of this you have to look at documentation. You can see descriptions of what each rule does. You can do so much in the UI. 29:19 – Guest. 29:40 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 30:25 – Chris: Do they still need a terminal? 30:35 – Guest. 32:41 – Chris: That would be cool! 32:46 – Guest. 33:09 – Chris: They still need a little terminal knowledge right? 33:15 – Guest: Yes. 33:33 – Chris: They need a little terminal knowledge, they need to install the package, then they need to run VUE UI, then they can do anything from the terminal inside of the UI? 33:55 – Guest: You can create and import existing projects. 34:28 – Panel. 34:33 – Chris. 34:36 – Panel: It’s already active? 34:43 – Guest: I would like to talk about what I did in London. That conference I talked about... 37:00 – Panel. 37:07 – Guest. 37:20 – Panel: Nice! 37:25 – Guest. Guest: All of these widgets that I talked about you can use the product API and do anything that you want. 38:47 – Chris: If someone wants to see the dashboard that you are doing – where can they see that stuff? 39:00 – Guest: GitHub. Follow the manuscript instructions. 39:16 – Chris: Your London talk was recorded? 39:22 – Guest: Yes. 39:27 – Guest. 39:38 – Divya: Are you planning on giving this talk in other events? 39:47 – Guest: Maybe not anytime soon. 39:56 – Chris. 40:00 – Divya. 40:09 – Guest: It might be release already we don’t know. 40:15 – Divya: A date you would like to release by? 40:25 – Chris: Where can people support you and your work? 40:35 – Guest: Yes, they definitely can. You can check out the GitHub file. Also, check-out my open source work, too. 41:17 – Chris: Twitter? 41:19 – Guest: Yes. 41:24 – Chris: You have cute cat pictures, too. Let’s go to Picks!! 41:40 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue VUE CLI 3 Vue CLI – NPM React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Article: Infrequently Noted Vue.js Fundamentals GetKap Snipcart Netlify Webpack.js Guillaume Chau’s Vue.JS LONDON Guillaume Chau’s Twitter Guillaume Chau’s LinkedIn Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Repositories Guillaume Chau’s ABOUT in Patreon.com Guillaume Chau’s Medium Guillaume Chau’s Info Divya’s London Talk Webpack – Configurations Graph QL Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe VueJS Fundamentals Developer Experience Bait and Switch Divya Get Kap Snipcart How we built a Due CLI Plugin for Netlify Lambda Chris Meditation Gratefulness Guillaume Exercise The Expanse

Panel: Joe Eames Chris Fritz Divya Sasidharan Special Guest: Guillaume Chau In this episode, the panel talks with Guillaume Chau who is apart of the VueJS core team, a frontend engineer at Livestorm, and an open source contributor. The guest and the panelists talk about plugins, Webpack, Vue CLI, and much more! Check out today’s episode to hear all of the details.  Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:00 – Chris lists who is on the panel along with today’s guest. Chris: Who are you and what are you working on? 1:50 – Guest: I am working on a startup in Paris. I am calling in from Lyon, France. 2:12 – Panel: Late there? 2:15 – Panel: Almost time for dinner? 2:21 – Guest: Yes, it’s cooking now! 2:26 – Panel asks a question. 2:43 – Guest answers the question. 3:14 – Panel: Anyone who didn’t want to be an expert, they don’t’ have to worry about how things tie together – you could help them with their configurations? 3:36 – Guest: A lot of the work is done for you with the configurations so you can start writing your apps. 3:53 – Panel: How is 3 different from 2? 4:06 – Guest: It’s like a new tool entirely. It’s working very different, too, with a different system. It has a different template base.  5:53 – Panel: To combine templates you have to understand it well, like different Webpacks. 6:12 – Guest: Regarding Webpacks and their configurations... 6:52 – Panel: With the template situation there was an issue where they would make their project and as new versions of Webpack came out...and new versions of Babble, and they will have to manage the dependencies of all of these. There might be some plugins that only work with x, y, and z. IT can be frustrating – can version 3 take care of this for you? 7:44 – Guest answers the question. 9:24 – Panel: How do you update plugins? 9:29 – Guest. 10:26 – Panel: Upgrade your plugins then as long as all of your plugins are the same version it’s okay? 10:34 – Guest: Yes. You can upgrade your... 11:38 – Chris: Divya, you just gave a talk (London) on...plugins, right? 11:50 – Divya: Yes. We talked about Webpack configurations. For example, if there are some testing libraries you can essentially setup a UCLI plugin to create a test – create a test folder – plugins let you generate files or folders (structure your project in a certain way). In London I talked about server less functions with... 13:30 – Panel: Any kind of pattern you want to use in different applications you can wrap that up in a plugin? 13:42 – Divya: Yes. Exactly. Instead of repeating yourself you can wrap it up. It’s really handy. 14:00 – Panel asks a question. 14:02 – Divya: You could do that... 14:10 – Panel: ...or a graph QL – Yes! 14:20 – Guest. 14:33 – Chris: Any thing that third-party plugins don’t have access to? 14:43 – Guest. 14:54 – Chris. 15:08 – Guest. 15:25 – Divya: ...if you want a UCLI service...and so you can grab those commands and add-on those commands and using those default commands. You have access to those commands, so you don’t always... 17:02 – Chris: Like deploy? 17:11 – Divya: Yes. 17:17 – Guest. 17:19 – Divya. Divya: Do you have strategies on how you go about testing your plugins? 17:35 – Guest: Yes, I do. 19:23 – Panel: So this is like end-to-end test for a CLI tool? 19:33 – Guest. 19:50 – Panel: Is there documentation for all of this? 19:59 – Guest. 20:14 – Divya: I think the way I’ve done tests is to edit an example a test project as a local dependency and then seeing that it works. I want to make sure that it works. Divya: And the other way I’ve done it is VUE CLI it is undocumented at the moment. You can test your CLI plugin from within the plugin itself. 21:55 – Guest: I’ve used some of those before. 22:08 – Chris: Speaking of the UI that is something I’d love to talk about. It seems unique to me – a CLI tool that has a UI that is built along with it. That seems strange to some people – how does that work and WHY would you need it? 22:42 – Guest: I’ll start with the WHY. It is way more powerful and as a greeter the API interface is more fixable so you can choose different options. For example when you create a project you can set different things. You basically have to name the project and you have simple options to choose form. Now it’s basically a really fixable system with plugins and stuff like that. I thought it would be nice to free it from the terminal. The best way to do that was creating a graphical interface. The main advantage of this was that you could add more information and explanations to what is going on. You can also create better interface. Guest: Also, it currently improves discoverability. 25:30 – Chris: You could do a search in the UI and type in the name of something you are working with and then your plugin would show up in the list – and then it would just be added to their project. That’s nice so they don’t have to go to the NPM or doing the README. 26:07 – Guest. 26:14 – Divya: I think it’s nice b/c I have used it extensively for my plugin. I want to see what hasn’t been taken already. I have a way of organizing my modules and I’ve used to it see what names have already been taken? 26:47 – Guest: I think sometimes... 27:15 – Divya: The feature that you are able to run tasks from the UI is nice. 27:55 – Chris: It sounds like it offers a nicer way to view a lot of things. One of the other advantages (that I found) is that I have a configuration to the listing rules to Vue – you can pick the exact rule set that you want to use. Normally when you look at a configuration file, you don’t know what rule sets are available, you don’t know what options are available. All of this you have to look at documentation. You can see descriptions of what each rule does. You can do so much in the UI. 29:19 – Guest. 29:40 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 30:25 – Chris: Do they still need a terminal? 30:35 – Guest. 32:41 – Chris: That would be cool! 32:46 – Guest. 33:09 – Chris: They still need a little terminal knowledge right? 33:15 – Guest: Yes. 33:33 – Chris: They need a little terminal knowledge, they need to install the package, then they need to run VUE UI, then they can do anything from the terminal inside of the UI? 33:55 – Guest: You can create and import existing projects. 34:28 – Panel. 34:33 – Chris. 34:36 – Panel: It’s already active? 34:43 – Guest: I would like to talk about what I did in London. That conference I talked about... 37:00 – Panel. 37:07 – Guest. 37:20 – Panel: Nice! 37:25 – Guest. Guest: All of these widgets that I talked about you can use the product API and do anything that you want. 38:47 – Chris: If someone wants to see the dashboard that you are doing – where can they see that stuff? 39:00 – Guest: GitHub. Follow the manuscript instructions. 39:16 – Chris: Your London talk was recorded? 39:22 – Guest: Yes. 39:27 – Guest. 39:38 – Divya: Are you planning on giving this talk in other events? 39:47 – Guest: Maybe not anytime soon. 39:56 – Chris. 40:00 – Divya. 40:09 – Guest: It might be release already we don’t know. 40:15 – Divya: A date you would like to release by? 40:25 – Chris: Where can people support you and your work? 40:35 – Guest: Yes, they definitely can. You can check out the GitHub file. Also, check-out my open source work, too. 41:17 – Chris: Twitter? 41:19 – Guest: Yes. 41:24 – Chris: You have cute cat pictures, too. Let’s go to Picks!! 41:40 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue VUE CLI 3 Vue CLI – NPM React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Article: Infrequently Noted Vue.js Fundamentals GetKap Snipcart Netlify Webpack.js Guillaume Chau’s Vue.JS LONDON Guillaume Chau’s Twitter Guillaume Chau’s LinkedIn Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Guillaume Chau’s GitHub Repositories Guillaume Chau’s ABOUT in Patreon.com Guillaume Chau’s Medium Guillaume Chau’s Info Divya’s London Talk Webpack – Configurations Graph QL Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe VueJS Fundamentals Developer Experience Bait and Switch Divya Get Kap Snipcart How we built a Due CLI Plugin for Netlify Lambda Chris Meditation Gratefulness Guillaume Exercise The Expanse

On this episode, host Nathan Barker and co-host Ben DeAtley discuss the top Friday the 13th final girl, Ginny or Chris? They revisit episode 89 where Nathan and Lando speak of Ginny taking the top honors. A recent article from horrorgeeklife.com naming Chris Higgins as the top final girl has sparked new conversation on the

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Chris Heilmann In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Chris Heilmann. He has written books about JavaScript, in addition to writing a blog about it and is an educator about this program.  He currently resides in Berlin, Germany. Let’s welcome our special guest and listen to today’s episode! Show Topics: 2:19 – Chuck talks. 2:41 – Chris: He has talked about JavaScript in Berlin upon an invitation. You can get five different suggestions about how to use JavaScript. The best practices, I have found, are on the projects I am on now. JavaScript was built in ten days. My goal is to help people navigate through JavaScript and help them feel not disenfranchised.  5:47 – Aimee: The overall theme is... 5:54 – Panelist: I really like what you said about helping people not feeling disenfranchised. 6:47 – Chris: There is a lot of peer pressure at peer conferences 7:30 – Aimee chimes in with some comments. 7:50: Chris: I think we need to hunt the person down that put... 8:03 – Panelist: A good point to that is, I try to avoid comments like, “Well, like we ALL know...” 8:27 – Chris: There are things NOT to say on stage. It happens, but we don’t want to say certain things while we are teaching people. We are building products with different groups, so keep that in mind. 9:40 – Aimee: My experience in doing this is that I have found it very rewarding to share embarrassing experiences that I’ve had. My advice would to tell people to let their guard down. It’s encouraging for me. 10:26 – Chris: It helps to show that you are vulnerable and show that you are still learning, too. We are all learning together. 90% of our job is communicating with others. 11:05 – Chuck: Now, I do want to ask this... 11:35 – Chris answers. 12:24 – What makes you say that? (Question to Chris) 12:25 – Chris answers. 13:55 – Chuck: The different systems out there are either widely distributed or... You will have to work with other people. There is no way that people can make that on their own. If you can’t work with other people, then you are a hindrance. 14:31 – Aimee chimes in. 14:53 – Chris: They have to be very self-assured. I want to do things that are at the next level. Each developer has his or her own story. I want to move up the chain, so I want to make sure these developers are self-assured. 16:07 – Chris: Back to the article... 18:26 – Chuck: Yes, I agree. Why go and fight creating a whole system when it exists. 18:54 – Chris chimes in with some comments. 19:38 – Panelist: I still use console logs. 19:48 – Chris: We all do, but we have to... 19:55 – Aimee: In the past year, I can’t tell you how much I rely on this. Do I use Angular? Do I learn Vue? All those things that you can focus on – tools. 10:21 – Chris: We are talking about the ethics of interfaces. Good code is about accessibility, privacy and maintainability, among others. Everything else is sugar on top. We are building products for other people. 22:10 – Chuck: That is the interesting message in your post, and that you are saying: having a deep, solid knowledge of React (that is sort of a status thing...). It is other things that really do matter. It’s the impact we are having. It’s those things that will make the difference. Those things people will want to work with and solves their problems. 23:00 – Chris adds his comments. He talks about Flash. 24:05 – Chris: The librarian motto: “I don’t know everything, but I can look “here” to find the answer.” We don’t know everything. 24:31 – Aimee: Learn how to learn. 24:50 – Chris: There is a big gap in the market. Scratch is a cool tool and it’s these puzzle pieces you put together. It was hard for me to use that system. No, I don’t want to do that. But if you teach the kids these tools then that’s good.  24:56 – Chuck: Here is the link, and all I had to do was write React components. 26:12 – Chris: My first laptop was 5x more heavy then this one is. Having access to the Internet is a blessing. 27:24 – Advertisement 28:21 – Chuck: Let’s bring this back around. If someone has gone through boot camp, you are recommending that they get use to know their editor, debugging, etc. Chris: 28:47 – Chris: Yes, get involved within your community. GitHub. This is a community effort. You can help. Writing code from scratch is not that necessary anymore. Why rebuild something if it works. Why fix it if it’s not broken? 31:00 – Chuck talks about his experience. 31:13 – Chris continues his thoughts. Chris: Start growing a community. 32:01 – Chuck: What ways can people get involved within their community? 32:13 – Chris: Meetup. There are a lot of opportunities out there. Just going online and seeing where the conferences 34:08 – Chris: It’s interesting when I coach people on public speaking. Sharing your knowledge and learning experience is great! 34:50 – Chuck: If they are learning how to code then...by interacting with people you can get closer to what you need/want. 35:30 – Chris continues this conversation. 35:49 – Chris: You can be the person that helps with x, y, z. Just by getting your name known then you can get a job offer. 36:23 – Chuck: How do you find out what is really good content – what’s worth your time vs. what’s not worth your time? 36:36 –Chris says, “That’s tricky!” Chris answers the question. 37:19: Chris: The best things out there right now is... 38:45 – Chuck: Anything else that people want to bring up? 39:00 – Chris continues to talk. 42:26 – Aimee adds in her thoughts. Aimee: I would encourage people to... 43:00 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: Each project is different, when I build a web app is different then when I build a... 45:07 – Panelist: I agree. You talked about abstractions that don’t go away. You use abstractions in what you use. At some point, it’s safe to rly on this abstraction, but not this one. People may ask themselves: maybe CoffeeScript wasn’t the best thing for me. 46:11 – Chris comments and refers to jQuery. 48:58 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: I used to work on eight different projects and they worked on different interfaces. I learned about these different environments. This is the project we are now using, and this will like it for the end of time. This is where abstractions are the weird thing. What was the use of the abstraction if it doesn’t have longevity? I think we are building things too soon and too fast. 51:04 – Chris: When I work in browsers and come up with brand new stuff. 52:21 – Panelist: Your points are great, but there are some additional things we need to talk about. Let’s take jQuery as an example. There is a strong argument that if you misuse the browser... 53:45 – Chris: The main issue I have with jQuery is that people get an immediate satisfaction. What do we do besides this? 55:58 – Panelist asks Chris further questions. 56:25 – Chris answers. Chris: There are highly frequent websites that aren’t being maintained and they aren’t maintainable anymore. 57:09 – Panelist: Prototypes were invented because... 57:51 – Chris: It’s a 20/20 thing. 58:04 – Panelist: Same thing can be said about the Y2K. 58:20 – Panelist: Yes, they had to solve that problem that day. The reality is... 58:44 – Chris: We learned from that whole experience. 1:00:51 – Chris: There was a lot of fluff around it. 1:01:35 – Panelist: Being able to see the future would be a very helpful thing. 1:01:43 – Chris continues the conversation. 1:02:44 – Chuck: How do people get ahold of you? 1:03:04 – Twitter is probably the best way. 1:03:32 – Let’s go to picks! 1:03:36 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript So you Learned Java Script, what now? – Article WebHint Article by James Sinclair Clank! Angular GitHub Meetup Chris Heilmann’s Twitter Chris Heilmann’s Website Chris Heilmann’s Medium Chris Heilmann’s LinkedIn Chris Heilmann Chris Heilmann’s GitHub Smashing Magazine – Chris Heilmann jQuery CoffeeScript React Elixir Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly   Picks : Amiee Hacker News -  How to deal with dirty side effects in your pure functional JavaScript AJ KeyBase Joe Framework Summit Clank ASMR Charles Get a Coder Job Course The Iron Druid Chronicles Framework Summit Chris Web Unleashed Toronto Kurzgesagt It Is Just You, Everything’s Not Shit

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Chris Heilmann In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Chris Heilmann. He has written books about JavaScript, in addition to writing a blog about it and is an educator about this program.  He currently resides in Berlin, Germany. Let’s welcome our special guest and listen to today’s episode! Show Topics: 2:19 – Chuck talks. 2:41 – Chris: He has talked about JavaScript in Berlin upon an invitation. You can get five different suggestions about how to use JavaScript. The best practices, I have found, are on the projects I am on now. JavaScript was built in ten days. My goal is to help people navigate through JavaScript and help them feel not disenfranchised.  5:47 – Aimee: The overall theme is... 5:54 – Panelist: I really like what you said about helping people not feeling disenfranchised. 6:47 – Chris: There is a lot of peer pressure at peer conferences 7:30 – Aimee chimes in with some comments. 7:50: Chris: I think we need to hunt the person down that put... 8:03 – Panelist: A good point to that is, I try to avoid comments like, “Well, like we ALL know...” 8:27 – Chris: There are things NOT to say on stage. It happens, but we don’t want to say certain things while we are teaching people. We are building products with different groups, so keep that in mind. 9:40 – Aimee: My experience in doing this is that I have found it very rewarding to share embarrassing experiences that I’ve had. My advice would to tell people to let their guard down. It’s encouraging for me. 10:26 – Chris: It helps to show that you are vulnerable and show that you are still learning, too. We are all learning together. 90% of our job is communicating with others. 11:05 – Chuck: Now, I do want to ask this... 11:35 – Chris answers. 12:24 – What makes you say that? (Question to Chris) 12:25 – Chris answers. 13:55 – Chuck: The different systems out there are either widely distributed or... You will have to work with other people. There is no way that people can make that on their own. If you can’t work with other people, then you are a hindrance. 14:31 – Aimee chimes in. 14:53 – Chris: They have to be very self-assured. I want to do things that are at the next level. Each developer has his or her own story. I want to move up the chain, so I want to make sure these developers are self-assured. 16:07 – Chris: Back to the article... 18:26 – Chuck: Yes, I agree. Why go and fight creating a whole system when it exists. 18:54 – Chris chimes in with some comments. 19:38 – Panelist: I still use console logs. 19:48 – Chris: We all do, but we have to... 19:55 – Aimee: In the past year, I can’t tell you how much I rely on this. Do I use Angular? Do I learn Vue? All those things that you can focus on – tools. 10:21 – Chris: We are talking about the ethics of interfaces. Good code is about accessibility, privacy and maintainability, among others. Everything else is sugar on top. We are building products for other people. 22:10 – Chuck: That is the interesting message in your post, and that you are saying: having a deep, solid knowledge of React (that is sort of a status thing...). It is other things that really do matter. It’s the impact we are having. It’s those things that will make the difference. Those things people will want to work with and solves their problems. 23:00 – Chris adds his comments. He talks about Flash. 24:05 – Chris: The librarian motto: “I don’t know everything, but I can look “here” to find the answer.” We don’t know everything. 24:31 – Aimee: Learn how to learn. 24:50 – Chris: There is a big gap in the market. Scratch is a cool tool and it’s these puzzle pieces you put together. It was hard for me to use that system. No, I don’t want to do that. But if you teach the kids these tools then that’s good.  24:56 – Chuck: Here is the link, and all I had to do was write React components. 26:12 – Chris: My first laptop was 5x more heavy then this one is. Having access to the Internet is a blessing. 27:24 – Advertisement 28:21 – Chuck: Let’s bring this back around. If someone has gone through boot camp, you are recommending that they get use to know their editor, debugging, etc. Chris: 28:47 – Chris: Yes, get involved within your community. GitHub. This is a community effort. You can help. Writing code from scratch is not that necessary anymore. Why rebuild something if it works. Why fix it if it’s not broken? 31:00 – Chuck talks about his experience. 31:13 – Chris continues his thoughts. Chris: Start growing a community. 32:01 – Chuck: What ways can people get involved within their community? 32:13 – Chris: Meetup. There are a lot of opportunities out there. Just going online and seeing where the conferences 34:08 – Chris: It’s interesting when I coach people on public speaking. Sharing your knowledge and learning experience is great! 34:50 – Chuck: If they are learning how to code then...by interacting with people you can get closer to what you need/want. 35:30 – Chris continues this conversation. 35:49 – Chris: You can be the person that helps with x, y, z. Just by getting your name known then you can get a job offer. 36:23 – Chuck: How do you find out what is really good content – what’s worth your time vs. what’s not worth your time? 36:36 –Chris says, “That’s tricky!” Chris answers the question. 37:19: Chris: The best things out there right now is... 38:45 – Chuck: Anything else that people want to bring up? 39:00 – Chris continues to talk. 42:26 – Aimee adds in her thoughts. Aimee: I would encourage people to... 43:00 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: Each project is different, when I build a web app is different then when I build a... 45:07 – Panelist: I agree. You talked about abstractions that don’t go away. You use abstractions in what you use. At some point, it’s safe to rly on this abstraction, but not this one. People may ask themselves: maybe CoffeeScript wasn’t the best thing for me. 46:11 – Chris comments and refers to jQuery. 48:58 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: I used to work on eight different projects and they worked on different interfaces. I learned about these different environments. This is the project we are now using, and this will like it for the end of time. This is where abstractions are the weird thing. What was the use of the abstraction if it doesn’t have longevity? I think we are building things too soon and too fast. 51:04 – Chris: When I work in browsers and come up with brand new stuff. 52:21 – Panelist: Your points are great, but there are some additional things we need to talk about. Let’s take jQuery as an example. There is a strong argument that if you misuse the browser... 53:45 – Chris: The main issue I have with jQuery is that people get an immediate satisfaction. What do we do besides this? 55:58 – Panelist asks Chris further questions. 56:25 – Chris answers. Chris: There are highly frequent websites that aren’t being maintained and they aren’t maintainable anymore. 57:09 – Panelist: Prototypes were invented because... 57:51 – Chris: It’s a 20/20 thing. 58:04 – Panelist: Same thing can be said about the Y2K. 58:20 – Panelist: Yes, they had to solve that problem that day. The reality is... 58:44 – Chris: We learned from that whole experience. 1:00:51 – Chris: There was a lot of fluff around it. 1:01:35 – Panelist: Being able to see the future would be a very helpful thing. 1:01:43 – Chris continues the conversation. 1:02:44 – Chuck: How do people get ahold of you? 1:03:04 – Twitter is probably the best way. 1:03:32 – Let’s go to picks! 1:03:36 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript So you Learned Java Script, what now? – Article WebHint Article by James Sinclair Clank! Angular GitHub Meetup Chris Heilmann’s Twitter Chris Heilmann’s Website Chris Heilmann’s Medium Chris Heilmann’s LinkedIn Chris Heilmann Chris Heilmann’s GitHub Smashing Magazine – Chris Heilmann jQuery CoffeeScript React Elixir Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly   Picks : Amiee Hacker News -  How to deal with dirty side effects in your pure functional JavaScript AJ KeyBase Joe Framework Summit Clank ASMR Charles Get a Coder Job Course The Iron Druid Chronicles Framework Summit Chris Web Unleashed Toronto Kurzgesagt It Is Just You, Everything’s Not Shit

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Chris Heilmann In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Chris Heilmann. He has written books about JavaScript, in addition to writing a blog about it and is an educator about this program.  He currently resides in Berlin, Germany. Let’s welcome our special guest and listen to today’s episode! Show Topics: 2:19 – Chuck talks. 2:41 – Chris: He has talked about JavaScript in Berlin upon an invitation. You can get five different suggestions about how to use JavaScript. The best practices, I have found, are on the projects I am on now. JavaScript was built in ten days. My goal is to help people navigate through JavaScript and help them feel not disenfranchised.  5:47 – Aimee: The overall theme is... 5:54 – Panelist: I really like what you said about helping people not feeling disenfranchised. 6:47 – Chris: There is a lot of peer pressure at peer conferences 7:30 – Aimee chimes in with some comments. 7:50: Chris: I think we need to hunt the person down that put... 8:03 – Panelist: A good point to that is, I try to avoid comments like, “Well, like we ALL know...” 8:27 – Chris: There are things NOT to say on stage. It happens, but we don’t want to say certain things while we are teaching people. We are building products with different groups, so keep that in mind. 9:40 – Aimee: My experience in doing this is that I have found it very rewarding to share embarrassing experiences that I’ve had. My advice would to tell people to let their guard down. It’s encouraging for me. 10:26 – Chris: It helps to show that you are vulnerable and show that you are still learning, too. We are all learning together. 90% of our job is communicating with others. 11:05 – Chuck: Now, I do want to ask this... 11:35 – Chris answers. 12:24 – What makes you say that? (Question to Chris) 12:25 – Chris answers. 13:55 – Chuck: The different systems out there are either widely distributed or... You will have to work with other people. There is no way that people can make that on their own. If you can’t work with other people, then you are a hindrance. 14:31 – Aimee chimes in. 14:53 – Chris: They have to be very self-assured. I want to do things that are at the next level. Each developer has his or her own story. I want to move up the chain, so I want to make sure these developers are self-assured. 16:07 – Chris: Back to the article... 18:26 – Chuck: Yes, I agree. Why go and fight creating a whole system when it exists. 18:54 – Chris chimes in with some comments. 19:38 – Panelist: I still use console logs. 19:48 – Chris: We all do, but we have to... 19:55 – Aimee: In the past year, I can’t tell you how much I rely on this. Do I use Angular? Do I learn Vue? All those things that you can focus on – tools. 10:21 – Chris: We are talking about the ethics of interfaces. Good code is about accessibility, privacy and maintainability, among others. Everything else is sugar on top. We are building products for other people. 22:10 – Chuck: That is the interesting message in your post, and that you are saying: having a deep, solid knowledge of React (that is sort of a status thing...). It is other things that really do matter. It’s the impact we are having. It’s those things that will make the difference. Those things people will want to work with and solves their problems. 23:00 – Chris adds his comments. He talks about Flash. 24:05 – Chris: The librarian motto: “I don’t know everything, but I can look “here” to find the answer.” We don’t know everything. 24:31 – Aimee: Learn how to learn. 24:50 – Chris: There is a big gap in the market. Scratch is a cool tool and it’s these puzzle pieces you put together. It was hard for me to use that system. No, I don’t want to do that. But if you teach the kids these tools then that’s good.  24:56 – Chuck: Here is the link, and all I had to do was write React components. 26:12 – Chris: My first laptop was 5x more heavy then this one is. Having access to the Internet is a blessing. 27:24 – Advertisement 28:21 – Chuck: Let’s bring this back around. If someone has gone through boot camp, you are recommending that they get use to know their editor, debugging, etc. Chris: 28:47 – Chris: Yes, get involved within your community. GitHub. This is a community effort. You can help. Writing code from scratch is not that necessary anymore. Why rebuild something if it works. Why fix it if it’s not broken? 31:00 – Chuck talks about his experience. 31:13 – Chris continues his thoughts. Chris: Start growing a community. 32:01 – Chuck: What ways can people get involved within their community? 32:13 – Chris: Meetup. There are a lot of opportunities out there. Just going online and seeing where the conferences 34:08 – Chris: It’s interesting when I coach people on public speaking. Sharing your knowledge and learning experience is great! 34:50 – Chuck: If they are learning how to code then...by interacting with people you can get closer to what you need/want. 35:30 – Chris continues this conversation. 35:49 – Chris: You can be the person that helps with x, y, z. Just by getting your name known then you can get a job offer. 36:23 – Chuck: How do you find out what is really good content – what’s worth your time vs. what’s not worth your time? 36:36 –Chris says, “That’s tricky!” Chris answers the question. 37:19: Chris: The best things out there right now is... 38:45 – Chuck: Anything else that people want to bring up? 39:00 – Chris continues to talk. 42:26 – Aimee adds in her thoughts. Aimee: I would encourage people to... 43:00 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: Each project is different, when I build a web app is different then when I build a... 45:07 – Panelist: I agree. You talked about abstractions that don’t go away. You use abstractions in what you use. At some point, it’s safe to rly on this abstraction, but not this one. People may ask themselves: maybe CoffeeScript wasn’t the best thing for me. 46:11 – Chris comments and refers to jQuery. 48:58 – Chris continues the conversation. Chris: I used to work on eight different projects and they worked on different interfaces. I learned about these different environments. This is the project we are now using, and this will like it for the end of time. This is where abstractions are the weird thing. What was the use of the abstraction if it doesn’t have longevity? I think we are building things too soon and too fast. 51:04 – Chris: When I work in browsers and come up with brand new stuff. 52:21 – Panelist: Your points are great, but there are some additional things we need to talk about. Let’s take jQuery as an example. There is a strong argument that if you misuse the browser... 53:45 – Chris: The main issue I have with jQuery is that people get an immediate satisfaction. What do we do besides this? 55:58 – Panelist asks Chris further questions. 56:25 – Chris answers. Chris: There are highly frequent websites that aren’t being maintained and they aren’t maintainable anymore. 57:09 – Panelist: Prototypes were invented because... 57:51 – Chris: It’s a 20/20 thing. 58:04 – Panelist: Same thing can be said about the Y2K. 58:20 – Panelist: Yes, they had to solve that problem that day. The reality is... 58:44 – Chris: We learned from that whole experience. 1:00:51 – Chris: There was a lot of fluff around it. 1:01:35 – Panelist: Being able to see the future would be a very helpful thing. 1:01:43 – Chris continues the conversation. 1:02:44 – Chuck: How do people get ahold of you? 1:03:04 – Twitter is probably the best way. 1:03:32 – Let’s go to picks! 1:03:36 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript So you Learned Java Script, what now? – Article WebHint Article by James Sinclair Clank! Angular GitHub Meetup Chris Heilmann’s Twitter Chris Heilmann’s Website Chris Heilmann’s Medium Chris Heilmann’s LinkedIn Chris Heilmann Chris Heilmann’s GitHub Smashing Magazine – Chris Heilmann jQuery CoffeeScript React Elixir Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly   Picks : Amiee Hacker News -  How to deal with dirty side effects in your pure functional JavaScript AJ KeyBase Joe Framework Summit Clank ASMR Charles Get a Coder Job Course The Iron Druid Chronicles Framework Summit Chris Web Unleashed Toronto Kurzgesagt It Is Just You, Everything’s Not Shit

Chris: Yeah, yeah we're rolling. Yeah? Kat: Is there enough light? Okay, no that was already on. I think I'm becoming addicted to light. Chris: You've got it down. All right. Kat: Okay, we're live already. Chris: Yeah ... what? Kat: What, mother fucker- I get ... Chris: You're gonna have to redo it. Kat: I can't redo it. I'd have to- Chris: [crosstalk 00:00:30] Oh, no. No, that one's done. Yeah that's- Kat: This is live. We're already live. What you're saying is being heard. What I'm saying is being heard. Chris: That is so funny. Kat: I think people have heard it before. What's up? Chris: Yes, it's working. Kat: We are technological geniuses. Chris: We just did have it take off a certain [crosstalk 00:00:50]. Kat: We've made ... They didn't do much. Hey, I managed to get the internet working for a second and a half. Chris: Oh my God. Kat: Can we kick this off by telling people the quotes of the day, Chris? Chris: All right we can share this. Yeah, all right. Kat: So should I tell them one from the other day or is it gonna off our buyers? Chris: No, no, no, we share. We're truly authentic [crosstalk 00:01:08] Kat: We're here for authenticity. We are literally about to fu- ... We are about to launch. Am I allowed to swear? Chris: No. Kat: No? Chris: No swearing. Kat: Okay, sorry. We are literally about to launch our supplement. We get to that in a moment but first I'd like to tell you three very informative and important quotes that I've been noting down. Chris just ... This is a man who, when you meet him or you see him, even online, you'll see that he is one of the most genuine good guys in the world. Kat: He is the nicest man in the world. He's one of my closest friends. I love him to death, he is the nicest, sweetest, person. Would never hurt anything and yet he just comes out and then he seems very like ... Wow, that was quite rude. Chris: Sorry, that is true. Kat: So the other day we're like "What should we call our livestream for our prelaunch live stream which shoots on Friday?" And I'm like thinking of creative titles cause I'm awesome at that and he's like, "Can we just call it-" Chris: Headlines are key. Kat: "This is why you're fat and we're not." And I'm like, "Wow." Chris: Because within context as well, we were talking about ... Kat: Please explain. [crosstalk 00:02:12] Chris: How we used to do diets before we used to be massive carbophobes and then over lunch we were talking about how we're just been loving eating carbs but doing it the right way. And how much better in shape we are now. And it's just- Kat: Well this leads me into the next quote which i that well ... Chris: Yeah, nicely done. Kat: Which is that we set up the lighting, and I'm like "Damn, that lighting's good." And Chris goes "Damn, it's good." And he goes, "Or is it just cause we look so good?" I'm just like "Wow, just be matter-of-fact about it." Oh, do you need to share that to your page? Do you need to share that to your personal page? Chris: Yeah. I can, with you. Kat: Okay, so we are ... oh and what was the third quote? Chris: What was the third one? Kat: Damn it, there was another really good one from just a second ago. So there was the one about "This is why you're fat and we're not." There was "Is this lighting really good or it just cause we look really good?" And then there was another one that just happened just then and it was so funny. I nearly wrote it down and then I was like "No, there's no way I would forget that." It will come back to us divinely. Chris: Not sure. Kat: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show. Chris: We've got some big news. Kat: We have huge news, I think we're not even allowing ourselves to be ... Chris: So exciting. Kat: As excited as we are. I know I think we're not letting ourselves be as excited as we really could or should be about this. I think we're excited and we're like this is a big deal, and I'm just like "No, but do you understand what a big deal it is?" Chris: This is a big deal. This is a really big deal. Kat: Two plus years in the making? Chris: It's even longer. Kat: I think it's three years [crosstalk 00:03:49] ... Chris: We can put this dick ends downs. Kat: I think it's like pre ... dick- really? We started to formulate this before time began in our souls. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Kat: That's how good we are. I got to the quote book, the intelligence was coming through divinely from generations before but in a physical human sense, maybe three years. Chris: [00:04:07] Particularly there's star dust in there. Kat: Well it's actually ... Yes. And gold dust. You get a little piece of my soul. That's some powerful stuff. Look what I've created. Chris: That's really funny. Don't worry about the lighting. We're good. Kat: Yeah, we're good. We're good with the lighting. So we might be a little bit excited. We might be coming across as a little bit extra hysterical than normal, but it is such a huge deal. And welcome, welcome, welcome to everybody. I'm so happy and grateful that you're here with us. Kat: Hello over on our business page and hello on our personal page, and hello wherever else you are. I am either going to talk excitedly in a hilarious or just randomly crazy way for now, or I'm going to just stop and let Chris present with deep profound wisdom. Chris: I'll chime in as well. Oh, always. Kat: All the things. But let's just quickly say ... Okay, Lisa just summed up the whole entire situation. Chris: Wee. Kat: He says, "Wee." That's exactly right. We have an amazing founding deal. Chris: Founding special. Kat: But we're not going to tell you about that now, because we've got too many other exciting things to say. Chris: Yeah, we've got some more important news. Kat: Okay, I'm done. Chris: Okay. Kat: For now. Chris: Well we haven't decided on everything at this moment. So we need to do this together. So this is actually like ... Kat: Co-creation. Chris: Exactly. We all need to come together right now and actually sort this out. Kat: Yeah. So just stop what you're doing, put it down. Chris: Because this is literally the only time you are ever going to get this special at this product, this price, ever. Kat: Ever. Obviously if you've been following Kat for any time and even myself, you'll know that we want to celebrate. Actually, you know what's really interesting? This little bit random, I actually went through the ... See, Kat you're looking gorgeous. Chris: Yeah, I'm all right as well. Kat: No, I think that's definitely for you, sorry. Not me. Oh, thank you. I'm going to take that. I'm taking it from here. Thanks, Lonny. Chris: Kat, how high can you go. Random segue, we actually just reviewed the ... With my other coaching business, reviewed what the key parts of what the most accessible coaches are doing right now. What was ... What have they done? There was two things that was actually really interesting. Chris: One was how long they've been in the programme and why they're succeeding. So it's a common factor, and two, was they always jumped on the programme as fast as possible. Kat: Of course. Fast action takers. Chris: I know, but it was actually really interesting for me to actually see it. Kat: Oh, it was actual research. Chris: Yeah, we actually went through everything. Kat: That's gold. I say that all the time. Chris: The most successful people. No, it's legit. Kat: Oh, hello. Yeah. Chris: Yeah, well, exactly. Fair enough. Kat: We literally became business partners over cauliflower. Chris: Cauliflower and chicken? Kat: I could have make that some more exciting. Well, there was one. But it was a two-second decision, wasn't it? Chris: Yeah, it was. Kat: It was. Oh, then you came around and we talked about it the next day again, but it had already obviously ... Really we're just joking around nothing. We did a hilarious life show together. Chris: Yeah. Kat: But that is so true, and I say that all the time when I'm working with high level badass entrepreneurs and creators. I always say, "I want to work with the people who say 'yes' straight away." Because that's like me, and those are the people who get awesome freaking results. So we're really here today not just to ... With such excitement and gratitude and passion launch our product, finally. Kat: But we're also here ... There it is. We're also here to really honour those people who already know that they want one of our ... Oh, look at Ryan. You couldn't have product placed him any better than the hat. Ryan says, "Is this the one I tried last year at your place? It tasted amazing." I think my second one did have vodka in it. All right, just hold the final ... Let's save the shenanigans part of what you can do with this for later. Kat: Let's just talk pure. In fact, it was very healthy in the process of my training. But yes. So we didn't even prepare that little bit of testimonial earlier at all from Ryan who says it tastes amazing. It tastes freaking amazing. Okay, I'm getting distracted again. Continue on. Chris: Okay. There's a few things that we've all got to sort out right now. One, when you actually have to get onboard these founders special. Two, we're going to share with you actually how much of a discount that you're going to get and that's a lifetime discount as well. So we're going to make this as much of a no brainer as possible. Kat: Oh, I just remembered the other quote. Chris: Oh, what was the other quote? Kat: It was I said to you, "Is that really sneaky?" And you said, "Yeah." I really like it. Chris: Okay, just kind of side note, that was ingenious business strategy that we actually did when you just said we ... Kat: Because I'm a ninja. As I proved to you earlier. Chris: We share that later. We share that later. Keep business strategies coming down on this as well. It's all working. So two things we're going to work out. One, when you actually have to get on board by, because this can only last so long and we're going to have to cut it right now. So this, it's actually going to be pretty limited. Because we can only take so many people on board. Kat: Yeah. Chris: Two, the discount you get, which is a lifetime discount. And you know what? Three, we actually just added in. Sorry, for the first 100. First 100? Kat: Oh, I thought it was going to be 50. You're seriously pulling this up for 100 people? Chris: I want to be really nice, because I wore my give shirt today. Because I want to give. Kat: Oh, I want to cut it off really. I like to make people jump on board or work for it. Chris: No, we'll do 100, because there's a lot of ... Yeah, okay. No. Kat: All right, that means I have a point saved for later to make a decision about something. Chris: All right. You got one brownie for later. One video for later. Kat: I'll get to be in charge of something later. Chris: First hundred people that are going to be coming on board, you're going to get a copy of my book, "Craving the Truth", which is actually the book where I show you how to be able to get into the best shape of your life, and how to not do it by doing depriving diets, which we have right here. Tada. Kat: There it is. Fabulous book. Chris: So you'll get a copy of "Craving the Truth" as well coming on board in this, but we can only do that for the first hundred. Kat: For free. Extra fast action, take a bonus. On top of the crazy discount. Oh, wait. Do we make them pay full price if they're getting a book? Chris: I don't want to have to make them pay full price. Kat: All right. Why not? I was just trying to be funny. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's fine, because my lighting's fabulous. Chris: Yeah. You look good, life is good. So if you want a copy of the book for free, where I give you the diets. We talk work outs. We talk actually what Kat and I are doing. You're going to have to get on board really quick as well, but also, lifetime discount. Can we tell them how much the discount is? Kat: No, make them work for it. Send a love heart shower. Chris: Oh, yeah, I love how you do this. Kat: A load of love hearts, and we're just going to tell them the office straight away. Just like that? Chris: Melissa. Kat: Hi. Chris: Thanks, Mel, appreciate that. Kat: Yeah, there you go. Chris: It's a great pull. Kat: Let's. So we just give ... Whoa, you guys loving the love heart shower. Thank you. Chris: Whoa. Kat: Do you want a comment something hilarious or just comment get on with it already? Chris: Let's have best comment. I will just give you a copy of the book straight away. Kat: I can't talk through this offer, because I'm going to get too giggly and excited like a little kid at Christmas, and I'm not going to get the details right. I'm trying very hard to restrain myself here, but I'm so excited. So Chris is going to tell you the deal with it. It's literally more crazy than what we thought we were going to do. We dropped down an extra ... We actually dropped down an additional ... Chris: No, let's prepare for lunch. Kat: Over an additional 20 percent on what was already the reduced founding members price. Chris: Yeah, it was. Kat: Wait, did you just say they get to lock it in for life? Chris: Yeah, it's lifetime. Kat: I thought we were just giving that for the first month. Chris: Lifetime. This is exactly. Kat: What? Chris: When you get on board, but here's the thing. When you get on board, you get it for life. If you ever leave. Kat: You're out. Chris: Never get it again. Kat: We're never talking to you again. Chris: No. We'll talk to you, but you just want to get the discount again as well. Kat: If you buy us a drink. Chris: You've got to ... You actually get the discount for life. Kat: Yeah, that makes sense. Chris: That's a bit of a no brainer. Kat: That is a no brainer. Couple of no brainers. I'll eat anything that tastes delicious, especially if it helps me look that pretty. Thank you. Chris: Oh, that's really sweet. Kat: That's all the alignment. I'm reverse ageing. When you ordered this product, you will reverse age from between two and five years in the first 10 days. Chris: We can't say that. Kat: Hashtag disclaimer. I just it. Chris: The FDA does not agree with that at all. Kat: Shut up. Chris: I have to be legitimate with this stuff. Kat: I mean it. I mean it, because I decided, and I get what I decide. Can we just bring the mindset side into it? It's fine. When you sign up I'll get you a special training for free on the reverse ageing. How's that for a bonus? Chris: All right. Kat: Oh, let's have that in as a top 100 bonus. I will do a training on how I reverse age for free for the first 100 people, and I'm not kidding. Chris: I'll buy that. Kat: Look at this skin. I'm nearly 50. Chris: That's very funny. Kat: Well I'm 38. I'm nearly 39. But I'm reverse ageing at the speed of light. Everybody knows that. Chris: No, actually ... This gets really good. What we haven't actually said as well is if you get on board this offer today, you will be able to join the tribe. So what we're starting in part is our private tribe, yeah. Kat: Oh, yeah. We're getting to our programme. Chris: It's going to be a little bit ... It's probably something we should talk about right now as well. Kat: Wait, do we actually? No, this is for real now. I'm not pretending. Are we actually giving them that? Chris: Yeah, they get a private group. It's already set up. Kat: Oh, of course. Yes, all right, fine. Onward then. Chris: This is stupid. Kat: Okay, I'm done. I'm done with my talking. I've got the entertainment, and now Chris is going to tell you the deal. The deal is about to drop. We are going to give you a link. You're going to click it, you're going to buy, and you're going to have a glass of water to celebrate, since you don't have the product yet. I'm waiting. Chris: Well you do have to wait. Kat: But we'll drink something in your honour. Chris: You do have to wait. So let's break this on down. Number one, first 100 people, I'll give you a copy of the book and I'll send it straight to you. Number two, you get the discount for life, and it's over 40 percent the discount as well. So that's a bit of a no brainer as well. Kat: We want to make it crazy no brainer for sure, legitimately of course. Chris: Yeah, I know. Three, you get access into ... whilst you have your membership, whilst you're getting this each month sent to you, you have access into the tribe, which is where Kat and I are going to be sharing with you what we do with our food, with our diets, with our training. I'm going to be in there giving you as well, because I've got literally 12 months worth of training, nutrition and lifestyle coaching ready to rock 'n' roll for you. Chris: So you'll get access into that private community where it's members only in there, and then ... Kat: That's got content from both of us, which is combining over 30 years of experience and knowledge and application and results. If you can, have some brain power. Chris: We literally needed a team member to go through how much content we had. Kat: It was several staff members who had to go through that and have been doing it for nine months. Chris: I feel so sorry for Jess actually. Kat: And Mim, shout out to Mim. And Jess too. Chris: And Mim. Yeah, sorry, too. Bingo. Kat: And shout out to Ash and Bron as well who've had so much to do with this launch and does so much work on that. Chris: I wish they were here. I got a notification on my page. Kat: I just was reading it over actually. Really. Chris: Okay, awesome. So you get the book. You get 40 percent discount and that's for life. You get access into the tribe as well. Now what we're going to do ... Kat: We were going to ... Sorry. I know I'm just terrible at cutting you off. I'm the worst at that. But we were going to charge for the tribe. We were going to do it as a separate. Chris: No, we are going to charge for the tribe. Kat: Yeah, but we were going to make it like you would pay a bit extra to get the coaching platform, as well as the product, and then it would be extra, extra for people who just wanted the coaching, which is basically means stupid people, because why would you not buy this? Then we decide to give it for free. Chris: So if we actually boil this down right now. Kat: Yeah. Chris: What the offer is is the super food blend will actually be recommended retail for $97. The tribe, our coaching community that's private for members only, that's actually priced at $50 a month for that. So obviously that's $150 a month, but if you get on board now, can we say it? Kat: Let's just do it. We've dragged it out long enough. They've been waiting and wanting. Chris: If you get on board now, you will get everything, which is sent to you each and every month, and your monthly membership into the tribe, and it's only going to be for $59. So we're cutting off $90 every month, and that's a life time discount going into it. So literally, there's a massive discount. So that's something like ... It's a gigantic discount. Kat: Whatever it is. Chris: First 100 people, I'll send you a copy of the book for free. Kat: And you'll get my reverse ... And you'll get my training on reverse ageing if you're in the first 100 people as well, which is completely serious. Chris: All right, Ricky. So Ricky asked a really good question. Can you consume it if pregnant? Now with supplements, you do technically have to say and you'll see on the back here, "Caution, if pregnant or nursing or taking medication, consult your health care practitioner before use." Kat: It's required to say that. Chris: My Lauren, wife, she has been pregnant with two children whilst taking this and my daughters have this as well. So when they ask for chocolate, they're actually asking for this bad boy. Kat: Yeah, I give this to my kids as well. Who are young as you know. It's required to say that. It's required to obviously that you've got to consult with your medical adviser that. Chris: Yeah, good question. Kat: I would take it. Lauren took it, etc. I just want to also clarify, really we had it locked in that launch offer ... That the retail price, the price that we will be selling it at. It's not just like what we're saying is retail. We will be selling it at $97. We were going to do the founding members offered at I think $79. That was locked in, and that was decided. Even up until last Friday. Kat: We did the pre-launch video and had some fun with that on Friday. You might have jumped on on that. Oh, we were supposed to notify people. I will send them a link after this, yeah. Chris: Yeah, we'll send them. Kat: I can't even remember why we decided to drop it down so much more. I think we just ... We get so excited. We are so proud of this and so excited and it's been so much work and blood and sweat and tears that's gone into this on Chris' behalf. I really just want to honour him. He's an amazing business partner and friend, and the work that he's put in. Literally travelling the Earth to create pharmaceutical great product in the world. Kat: It is literally the most exceptional formulation that you could come up with. Digestive health, probiotics, all this good stuff, but then also, working together with somebody that you're obviously good friends with, that's not automatically enough to make a great business partnership as I know a lot of people know. Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kat: So it's just been amazing to have a shared vision for something that we're both so excited to bring to life. It's been a little painstaking at times to get to where we're already, but like any amazing vision brought to life, you've got to be willing to go through those periods where it's things are going slow than you want or you thought something was just going to work, and then it didn't. Kat: So it's been quite the journey, and it's been one that's been heavily supported by the people we just mentioned and shouted out earlier as well. So there's a lot that's going into this and it really is. It's such a big deal. It's something that we know that we're going to take for life, be proud of for life. We really trust and belief that when you start to take this, firstly, the taste of it is incredible. It just tastes amazing. It's chocolate flavoured greens powder. It's flavoured naturally with cacao. Kat: It tastes incredible. Every single person who tried it is like, "Holy crap, where can I get this? I want to take this forever." So we know you're going to love the taste, but the benefits and the health side of it, the brain power side of it. The mineral focus side of it. The fact that you're just getting all these good things covered for yourself and your family in one hit. We know that you're going to be part of this for life as well. Kat: So this is something that for long haul it's not just business on the side of our respective empires that we already have. We really see it as a vision for the community that we want to build of like-minded individuals, like us, like you who are committed to being about us in every aspect of life. In business we brain function, and looking and feeling hot AF as well of course. Kelly says can you use it if diabetic. Chris: Yeah, you can. It actually says on here "diabetic safe". Where did I actually have to say that? Here. Last bullet point. No, extras. No extra added sugar. It is diabetic safe. It is only flavoured with stevia. So you only use the really good stuff. Please post the ingredients out. Yeah, Angela if you click the link that you'll get access to ... Kat: We could give the link. Chris: I will give you the link. If you click the link, you'll get access to the page which has the full ingredients on there for you. So you can actually read this rather than me sticking this up to the camera. It's still not being readable as well. Now, what we also have done is we put a 60-day guarantee on this. So we want you to taste it. Kat: That's how confident we are. Chris: We want you to use it. Exactly. That's how much we ... We're a little bit cocky when it comes to this. Because we know it's that good. We've been using it for that. Angela, you're absolutely welcome. So we want you to get your hands off it ... On it. When you get your hands on it, and you start using it, you'll see. You'll actually notice the difference as well. So what you want to be able to do is number one, it's not about supplements. Chris: Now let's just talk right now. I want to jump in and talk about ... Yeah, sorry, go. Kat: Should I give the link or should we give them preparation that I'm going to give you the link, because we are doing this first hundred thing. Chris: Oh. Kat: Let's tell you what we want to tell you, so that you're paying attention, and then we're going to drop the link. Chris: Okay, let's do that. Kat: Yeah. Chris: We'll jam real quick, and then we'll give you the link so that you can get access to all this stuff right now. So I want it in my mouth right now. Kat: All right. Well, it's a sensory experience, and you can tap into the collective energy. That's right here in this space and place. Here is some we prepared earlier. Chris: Jaya, can you put your email below and I will literally send you a copy of my book, because that was the best comment so far. Kat: Comment of 2018 award. We're adding that to our book of hilarious quote. But we will drink some in honour of everybody. You can tap into our collective energy. Chris: Right, cheers. So I'll answer Theo's question. So this is what we're doing. Because we're doing the very first batch, for all of our members with this super food blend, it's going to take between three to four weeks for everyone to get there. So that's why we're doing this founders special. So we want everybody to come on board. Now, and this is what I want to say and this is why it's so important. Kat: Yeah. Chris: It's not about supplement. Kat: That's why we're doing a huge discount. Chris: It's not about the supplements. Jaya, thank you so much. Can someone remind me to send Jaya a copy of that? Kat: Yes, I'll email you right now. Chris: Or just ... perfect. It's not about supplements, okay? So why are we actually talking right now? Why are we starting a health and fitness company? Why are we wanting to help you with this stuff? It's because you want to be able to look, feel, and function great. You want to be a part of the one percent of the one percent. You want to look great. You want to feel great. You actually want to perform really well, and that's not just the body performing on a biochemical level. It's how your brain performing as well, and you're actually enjoying it. Chris: How do we actually do this? It's not just by taking a supplement. Supplement's the cherry on the top, and we're going to be the first people that now run a supplement company to tell you it's not abut the supplements. This is why we're doing the tribe. So we help you, we show you, we teach you. We're giving you actually what's needed when it comes to, what to eat, how to eat, how to set up your lifestyle. What about when it comes to your work outs? When it comes to your movement as well. Chris: So especially when I break it down in the book, I show you the actual workouts and there's a yang and a yin philosophy. So like a yang, this is going to be a white training. A yin, it's going to be a walking. It's going to be your saunas, your ice punch pools, your meditations, all these kind of things. Kat: Yoga. Chris: Yoga. All these things we need to be able to put together. So it's a holistic approach to giving you exactly what you need. That's why when I first ... One of the reasons, our first conversation, we're like, "Hang on, there's a lot of 'supplement companies' out there and they're doing sometimes great products, sometimes crappy products. Let's not even go down that path." What's missing right now? No one's giving you both. No one's giving you here's the great ... Literally world best formulations, raw products, and manufacturing process. Kat: And taste. Chris: And taste. Which is kind of the most ... It's not technically the most important thing. But it's the most important in the sense that you're not going to take it if it doesn't taste amazing. It tastes so good that you just ... You want to have more. You just want more. I was crying when mine ran out. My samples that I had at home. Kat: Yeah, I had to get more for Kat. Chris: I had to have a massage to get over it. Kat: And a meditation, and some prayer. Some prayer. Then I may have harassed him over what's happened. I literally once was tapping in from every city around the world going, "So can you send some to New York? How about Florida? How about Texas? How about LA?" Chris: I tried to send it to her in two different cities. Kat: But I kept moving too quickly. Chris: And it kept missing. Kat: Come in San Diego, take me around. Chris: Obviously what I want to get across to make sure that we do this right is while we're doing the tribe is so literally Kat and I can give you what's needed to be able to make sure that you look, feel and function the way that you want. It is literally like that. Then when you want to put the cherry on top, when you want to perform. Because this is the thing and I talk about this. Chris: Number one, that our food quality that get isn't as good as it should be. You're not getting all the nutrients. You're not getting everything that you really need at the end of the day to be performing your best. We have high stress levels in our modern lifestyle. We have a lot of chemicals in our environment that help us become toxic. So we want to be able to become un-toxic. We want to be able to get rid of that stuff. Chris: So this is why we started with literally a greens formulation. But it's not a greens formulation. This is ... Kat: So much more. Chris: A super veggie type antioxidant blend. It's got a fruit antioxidant blend. It's got digestion support, and it's got a probiotic blend in here as well. So this is why we want to try and you come at this, because the thing at the end of the day is I don't want you to have a covered or room full of supplements. You want a handful of things, and that's what we're going to be doing, Kat and I together. We're going to be coming together. Kat: There would be new products. Chris: And are really doing a few products that give you the biggest bang for your bucks. So you can actually get on with your life. Because what I don't like is trying to do so many different things, that when we have more important things to do, I don't want to be worrying about my diet, or my work outs, or I'm not looking as I good as I feel like I should be. Or all that kind of shit. Chris: I'm a dad. I am running businesses. I want to be able to enjoy life. I want to be able to have us come together and just have fun. I don't want to be absolutely hating life because I'm doing a dive. Kat: You want to look and feel your best and be your best, and be fitting everything in but doing it just with ease and flow as well. We both, this is another thing. We've both done the hustle life before. I love the word hustle by the way. For me that means something powerful and flow based, but what I mean is we've both done business and life and fitness in way where it was kind of burning yourself out or pushing beyond a healthy limit and that's nothing I look back on and regret, because it made me into who I am now. Kat: But at this point in my life, and for both of us as well, it gets to be about having it all whilst operating at a level of excellence. Feeling your best, looking your best, being at your best, and having it jus be flow and ease. So there's already so many things that each of us do and support our communities to do that create that just through lifestyle and the way we choose to live our lives and live according to our values and so on. Kat: This just takes it to that next level. It's about enhancing a way of life. So that's again another reason why we've created the tribe to go with this to support you with the education, the information, and the empowerment, to get the results that you need. So we will be giving you the nutritional information literally over 30 years or at least over 25 years of combined experience between us. Chris: Over 24 years. Kat: At a really high level as well, where both of us really dedicated our money and our time to learning and studying with the best people in the world, and that's how we met. Through classes around the world. We're bringing you the most cutting edge, real nutrition information, hormone information, fat loss information, digestions, stress management, sexual energy and libido as well. All ties in together. Sleep quality. Kat: Mindset, of course, right? The ins and outs of the trainings side of it as well as the nutrition side of it, and we're teaching from a standpoint of full life in a way that feels amazing. It's not a freaking diet. It's not a quick fix. It's not do this for six weeks or 12 weeks. We're bringing to you our combined experience of well over two decades, and where we can look back and go, "We did all that crazy stuff and maybe you did as well." Kat: It is what it is. Now we actually have a way of living where we get to look and feel and function at a standard of excellence 24/7 always. It's just how it is. We don't sacrifice anything in order to look our best and feel our best. We know that you don't have to as well. So this is not come on board, our magical diet that's going to fix you, and then you're left floundering afterwards, rebounding back. Kat: This is make some small simple adjustments that are going to immediately feel amazing for you. You're going to be immediately be elevated internally and in your energy and your emotions, and even dare I say spiritually, because of course it heightens everything. You're going to see those physical shifts and changes as well. I get asked all the time. I know Chris gets asked all the time, "How we can be such busy, successful entrepreneurs both with our own families and small children, and still get to have ... be in great shape and be legitimately healthy and brimming with energy, and have the energy to do all those things?" Kat: That's so easy. We let it be so easy. It's such a small amount of time or energy that creates such a massive return on that. So everything that this is about. Like Chris said, it's not just a supplement. It's you get this amazing supplement and you get everything that since ... Yes, hold it up. Everything that's inside of us that we've taken all this time and effort and working with literally tens of thousands of clients between us over the past, decade plus, in order to just know what works for life. Kat: So I said at the start of this that I feel like I can't fully express what a big deal it is, and I feel like maybe I'm now starting to express what a big deal it is. But should we? Do you want to add something there or should we give them this link? Chris: I think we should give them the link. Kat: I don't know why I feel nervous. So hang on. Chris: It's good. Kat: Should we give them the link to the Facebook group as well or we just give them this link? Chris: No. Kat: No. Chris: The what? Kat: No, the one from the other day I meant. All right. We'll figure that out later. Chris: Oh, no, give them that link. Kat: Okay, so now, are you ready? Are you excited? Are you eager? Are you going to send me another love heart shower? Are you ready to click by pull out your credit card, get it at the ready, and here's what you're going to do. In about 19.5 seconds or however long it takes me to stop talking, I'm going to ... Which could be 19.5 years. I'm going to put this thing into the comments here. Kat: You are going to click the link. You are going to grab your credit card. You're going to run to the back of the room, and you're going to purchase this product. Chris: All right, hang on. Kat: Hang on. You're only supposed to say three things. That's what I'm telling from this stage, wait. Get your credit card, click the link, buy the product, be in our top 100, get Chris' book for free. For being a fast action taker badass, just like we are, you know your life is going to change for life, and you get a free book as well. It is amazing. And you get my free training on reverse ageing. Chris: I'm really excited for that. Kat: Me too. Yeah. I'll give you the link. I'm ready. This is it. This is it. This is the moment of truth. Chris: They just want us to getting it taken out really quick. I would literally be ... Kat: Yeah, I'd be running to the back of the room or to wherever your credit card is. Chris: Oh, God. Oh, shit. Just happened. Kat: We just? Did we just break the internet. Boom, boom, boom. Okay, I feel like we needed to prepare the drummer as a roll sound. I could have played when I did that. I actually feel like I need to take a breath. Chris: Oh, that's good. Oxygen's really good as well. To set fire. Kat: Can I just add that to quotes? Quotes from Chris. Oxygen is really good for you. Okay, what else are we going to say? Chris: Oh. Kat: Oh, did you tell them to comment there? Or are they just saying how it is over there for the fun of it? How did that just start happening? Chris: I don't know. Kat: Is it because they clicked this? Chris: I have no idea. Kat: What happens? Chris: Yes, it is. Kat: Oh. Chris: Oh, we can see everyone coming through on this one. Kat: We can see who's signing up. Chris: Going up. Kat: Go, go, go, go, go. Oh, we can see all the notification. Chris: I didn't ... This is ... Kat: Tamara's in. Michelle clicked the link. Sarah clicked the link. Chris: That's really funny. Kat: Come on, keep going. All right, and oh, when is this? Ooh, Thalika. She's on it. Just on it. Chris: Laura. Kat: All right. This is so exciting. Chris: This is so fun. Can I share? This is more exciting. I remember when I did my very first online fitness launch. Kat: Laura can't click. Chris: I had the PayPal app on my phone. And when I did the launch, it was like my PayPal app on my phone make a little ding noise. Or no, like a payment would have gone through. This is more exciting because it's a hell of a lot more people coming through. Kat: Sage says, "I can't click." You might have to try different device, because people are definitely clicking. And it's working. So how's this, though? It is so exciting. Last night I was out with a friend, and she's like, "So, what are you doing tomorrow? I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm doing whatever and whatever." Then I'm like, "Oh, and I'm just launching a supplement company with my friend Chris till 11:45. Kat: It's like, "Wow, this is huge." That would be huge. We're just quickly launching a supplement company that we're going to take. Angela says, "I can't click on iPad." What can we do about that if people can't click on some devices? Do you have it? Because this is the mo ... Do you have a different link? A longer one? Chris: Can you comment back then or? Kat: No. Chris: PM them? Kat: Do we have a different version of that link? Chris: No. Kat: No, I don't know what to do about that. Ash and Bronwyn, are you on? Chris: What's your problem? The request to the group. Theo. Did you click the link Theo, that Kat has just given you? Kat: Okay, one second. We tested this 1600 times. We will not be swayed. I'm clicking it now. Chris: It's definitely working. We're seeing people still coming through. Kat: Okay, so when I click that, it goes me to Facebook messenger. Chris: Don't worry, Theo. We'll get your link. IPhone can, iPad can't. Kat: It's taking me to Facebook messenger when I click it. Is that right? Chris: Yeah. Kat: Then where is the link that they're going to get that message to them? Chris: The link to ... Yeah. So we'll send you to Facebook messenger, and then Bronwyn said type it in. Kat: Then you've got to press get started. Chris: Then I should maybe put zero admin. Yeah, see, there you go. Kat: Okay. So when you ... We thought we tested it all, whatever. So when you click it, it's going to take you to Facebook messenger. It may not work on the iPad. Then it's going to ... Then you're going to click get started, and then it's going to start, "This is MBB Bot. The My Body Blend's Messenger System." Chris: Oh, my God. Kat: It will say it in that voice. Then it will say, "Do you really want access to a secret launch of Super Food Blend?" It will say it in that voice. Then you'll press "hell yes," which I'm doing now. Hell yes, I just did it. Now it says, "Awesome Katrina, click the prelaunch of verboten below to get our one-time only freelance offer for ..." Okay, I feel that we're being repetitive. For our brand new Super Food Blend. Kat: Plus, if you think there's anyone else who might need to know. I mean why would you take him in unless you want them in the top 100? So now I'm clicking that link, wait for it. Shana says, "Get started." I see you guys on it, just on it. Chris: It's really cool how I can see you from one and then comes through to the other one. Kat: This is a genius. Chris: Theo, you figured that out, great job. Kat: This is a genius strategy. I just got through the sales page. Chris: Can't believe this works. Kat: Right here, live, on this live stream. There it is. Chris: So this is only for the private launch. So obviously once this gets closed down, you're not going to get ... Kat: Take it out. You can't get in on this deal again. Chris: Yeah, you can't get access to this, because we can't keep this up forever. Kat: So talk them through what are they going to receive once they then signup and purchase. Chris: Cool. Kat: Because just a reminder that the product is going to come. Explain all that. Chris: Yeah. So obviously the founders special with what we're doing today is we're doing our very first batch, and you're going to be a part of this. So it's going to take three to four weeks for you to get your actual first Super Food Blend delivered. We're going to be sending it straight to you, but that's why we also have the MBB tribe. So the tribe is going to be where Kat and I are going to be in there making sure that you get access to what's going to be the right meal plan, the right workouts. Chris: I'm going to be in there doing live streams, answering your questions. Kat's going to be talking about anti-aging. Plus, if you get in first 100, which honestly it might be taken up already. I don't know, you're going to have to just get on board. Kat: Just go, go, go. Chris: I'm going to give you a copy of "Craving the Truth". That's going to break down literally what you need to be doing with your meals, with your workouts and lifestyle, and what we're also going to be doing is this special that you get access to today is for life. If you stay on board with this, that means you get this lifetime discount. Chris: So normally Super Food Blend. This has got the RLP of $97 just for one. The actual tribe, that sells for $50 a month. That's $150, but you get access to it today for only $59. So that's a massive discount. I don't know percentage was, what it is, because I'm horrible at math and that's okay. Melissa. Yay, got my confirmation email. So there we go. Kat: Yay, celebrate. Chris: It's coming through already. So that's fantastic. So we want to make sure that everybody come on board because we've got a couple wait up our sleeve. Like tomorrow I'm going to be jumping on board doing a live show, walking you through how we actually get the right meal plan, because what we start with, this is a little bit of secret sauces, how I kick start fat loss is what I do is we do a 14-day metabolic restart. Chris: So what we do is actually in the first 14 days we actually get your body to learn to burn body fat. Now most people are trying to talk about how do I speed up my metabolism? That's actually the wrong question I believe, because let's think about the analogy of driving a car. People are saying, "How do I speed up my metabolism?" They're just thinking about, "How can I drive my car faster?" But what if your car is actually heading in the wrong direction? Chris: So you just say, "Going in the wrong direction faster." So what we got to do first is make sure that you go in the right direction, which is how do you get your body to actually tap into body fat stores, how do you actually burn body fat for fuel. Then we talk about actually speeding our fat loss. But what we do is once we actually get your body tapping into body fat stores effectively, then we actually start talking about stress. Chris: So what the biggest problem is to me people are stressed. They've got too high cortisol levels. They started throwing other things like testosterone, pregnenolone, all these ... Actually, let's not go down the whole monogram, because that's going to be too complicated right now. But what we're going to do is we turn your body into actually being able to burn body fat for fuel first, then we talk about actually being able to lower stress. Chris: So what you'll find is most people when first getting the guides and plans I'm going to be sending through to you, think it's too easy and there's not enough. But you'll find that your body will actually be able to lose weight faster, because we're doing things easier. Because what's the biggest problem so many people fall into and I know we've done it before is you decide that you're going to lose weight. So what do you do? Chris: You cut your foods down, you ramp up your workout. Kat: Do some drastic random stuff. Chris: You do more, more, more, more, more, and then what happens when you hit the plateau? Because you will hit hit the plateau. Kat: What happens is you crack it and eat a freaking container of cookies. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Kat: If you're a woman. Chris: If you're a man as well. Kat: I never did this. Chris: I did. Kat: Okay. Chris: That's the big problem. So you wind up crack it, and you start binge eating, and then you feel guilty, and that's bad. So mentally that's bad. Or you actually have to start eating less and less and less, because you're trying to get to that deficit. So what we do is we say, "Let's actually do a bottoms up approach." So let's start from the bottom and we actually build your food, so you'll see that we actually increase your food intake. So you're actually eating more and losing weight, because the whole just eat less move more scenario, it's a myth. Kat: Boring. Chris: I wrote a freaking book about the myth of it, and it's not fun at all. Kat: Yeah. I just love everything you said. I love how you're just on a ... Did this stuff just comes out of you because you're so passionate about it and you know it so well? Chris: I know I did it wrong for so long. Kat: It is what we live and breathe. It is just ... I think you can see your passion coming through right, and you're just going to continue to get so much more of that and all of our knowledge and learning and support and accountability through being part of this tribe. So originally we will ... completely keep them two separate products. The coaching platform versus the product. Kat: Then we're like, "No, of course we're going to honour the people who buy this amazing thing, and really are committed to change their lives, not just to taking a supplement." The thing is I don't know. There's so many more things that I probably could say. But I think we've kind of covered the best of it, and we're just so excited to welcome you. We can see people ... Thank you and it says thank you. Kat: We can see people over on ... So we've got Chris. My friend here and Chris' friend here. Chris' friend is hooked up to the My Body Blend's page. So that's where you go when you click the link, you'll go to the Facebook messenger of the My Body Blend's page which is our joint business page. You'll then follow the prompts there, and you'll jump on to the sales page that way. So we can see people's responses that are coming up on his phone, which is super cool. Kat: So this is ... It's just huge. It's the bringing to life of something that's been several years in the making in the physical sense. 10 plus years of friendship in the making, decades of learning and knowledge in the making, something I always wanted to do. Something I know Chris always wanted to do, and what an incredible thing to be able to do this with somebody who you have such a close friend in your life, but who you know is also going to deliver the level of support and empowerment for your tribe, that you would do yourself. Kat: That's just such a huge big deal when being in business is somebody else to know that their work ethic and how they shop and their level of passion and commitment to change people's lives is the same. So this is the beginning of an amazing journey for you. If you are joining us, how long will we be keeping the founders special open for? Chris: I only wanted to do ... Kat: We had a little fight about it. Chris: Yeah. That's all right. We're allowed. But what about if we do for just 24 hours? Kat: What? Chris: No, we don't do it in 24 hours. Come on, I'm not the queen of scarcity. I'm making people move fast, but I feel like we could give them. But it doesn't matter, because you would just click and buy it now anyway, otherwise you would have been in the top 100, and you'd be a crazy person. Kat: Well how long do we let this video run for then? Because we have to take this video down. Chris: I feel like I don't know what the answer is that I'm supposed to say now. I feel like we didn't rehearse this properly. That is because we didn't rehearse it. Kat: We didn't. Chris: Yeah. I didn't really walked in and be like, "Let's do it with the camera on." Kat: Let's just turn the camera on and see what happens, apart from running down funny quotes. Chris: What do you want to say to them? Kat: Did you see that I've written down your quotes over here? I've saved it. I've written down the three quotes so far from Chris if you missed the quotes earlier. The quotes were this. He wanted to call our live show "this is why you're fat and we're not". That was one of my quotes of the year from Chris. Another one is that really sneaky? Me asking about a little Ninja trick. He's like, "Yeah." Chris: We just don't cover a really good Facebook ad strategy. Kat: That is good. Chris, that lighting is so good, Kat. Wait, no, it's just because we look so fabulous. That's my personal favourite. Chris: I'm so happy with that. Kat: Well, I think this is it. Chris: All right. We're going to get busy. Kat: Okay, is this? This is? Chris: Yeah, I know. I just saw these already gotten on board. Kat: I didn't ... See, that didn't happen for me. But if you have any issues or concerns at all, or anything doesn't work for you, maybe test it on a different device. Some people did say it doesn't. Didn't work on iPad. I'm not sure why that would be, but it's definitely working for me on my laptop. It's working on the phone. Of course you compare either of us. Or the My Body Blend's page as well, which is probably the best place to go, because then you'll get supported by our team as well and get answer as quickly as possible. Kat: Seeing infomercial broker, I feel like we got so much gold content. You know what's going to happen now. My team will chop up this live stream, get some clips out of it, caption them up, and we'll just be promoting and having a hilarious time. Shouldn't business and life just get to be fun as well? So that's part of our philosophy and part of what we're here to show you. Chris: You're not having fun, you don't enjoy the life. Kat: You can bet your bottom dollar we're going to be having all sorts of shenanigans in that group once you're in there. Because it's how it should be. That's how it gets to be. All right. Chris: Oh, good. Theo got ... Kat: Oh, you're on. Perfect, Theo. Chris: Confirmation done. Kat: Yay, I'm so excited. Chris: All right, awesome. So we've actually got to get to work, because we've got a lot of members. Kat: Just casually launched a supplement company on a Monday morning in Bali. All right, we're going to go hangout with our members. We're going to see what's up. We're going to see you on the inside, click the link, do the thing, be in the thing. We'll see you in the thing. We love you. Chris: Ciao. Kat: Bye.