Podcasts about college park church

Bonus Episode!Riley Greenwood is a friend of Ryan's and serves as the Student Ministry coordinator at College Park Church. She specifically oversees discipleship and the student ministry leaders. Riley is also a trained lay counselor and spends a lot of time with students helping them walk through the challenges they face from day to day. Today Riley just takes a few minutes to help all of us better understand how students experience life today and ways in which they're likely presented with mental health challenges you and I may never have faced. Send us a text

Episode 2 of our mini series on "Why is Luma" brings back former podcast cohost Jeff Ballard, pastor of Soul Care at College Park Church, who also serves as a member of the board of directors for Luma Counseling. He helps us walk through the first of Luma's core distinctives: Luma Counseling is Christ-Centered.Join Ryan and Jeff as they discuss what it means to counsel in a way that is Christ-Centered and how we strive to live that out at Luma Counseling. Send us a text

Welcome to season 5! As our podcast is now presented by Luma Counseling we felt it would be wise to help our listeners get a better idea of who Luma is and what Luma does. For this first mini-series join Ryan as he introduces you to the people behind the work at Luma Counseling. Meet some of the counselors, here how they practice and learn more about Luma! In this episode Tyler Riffe, assistant pastor of local outreach at College Park Church and former Executive Director of Luma Counseling discusses the history of Luma and how it came to be. It's an interesting story and gives a good foundation to build off of for the rest of the season. Send us a text

It is often the gap periods of waiting in our lives that are the most difficult - anxiety and anger can set in, and we may find ourselves going down a negative and destructive path. This very issue is something that Mark Vroegop, the lead pastor of College Park Church, set out to tackle in his book, Waiting Isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life. Mark talks about waiting on God in those “gap moments,” and trusting His provision. Waiting is beautiful, promised, and a biblical command, he says. He also describes it as a “hopeful position that we can live in.” Waiting doesn't have to be painful - it can be a major growing season for our faith in Jesus. TAKEAWAYS Every person has to discern about when it's time to wait and when it's time to move Waiting confronts our desire for control Waiting is part of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ Gaps are meant to remind us that we are NOT God and that we CAN trust Him

It is often the gap periods of waiting in our lives that are the most difficult - anxiety and anger can set in, and we may find ourselves going down a negative and destructive path. This very issue is something that Mark Vroegop, the lead pastor of College Park Church, set out to tackle in his book, Waiting Isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life. Mark talks about waiting on God in those “gap moments,” and trusting His provision. Waiting is beautiful, promised, and a biblical command, he says. He also describes it as a “hopeful position that we can live in.” Waiting doesn't have to be painful - it can be a major growing season for our faith in Jesus. TAKEAWAYS Every person has to discern about when it's time to wait and when it's time to move Waiting confronts our desire for control Waiting is part of what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ Gaps are meant to remind us that we are NOT God and that we CAN trust Him

Have you been walking through hard circumstances and you felt like you just needed to voice those feelings and frustrations to God and maybe even wrestle with him about why you are in these circumstances? Oh friend, I don't know if you realize it, but that is one of the steps of lament. I am so excited to Mark Vroegop on the podcast this week as we focus on what it means to lament. I think sometimes people are confused about this word, so I cannot wait to talk about his book, *Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament. He truly has so much wisdom on this—you don't want to miss this episode. Also, Oct 15th is pregnancy and infant loss Remembrance Day and I know this is part of both Mark's story as well as mine, so he will be sharing his story that birthed this book and then we will dive deeper into lament. Whether this is part of your story or not, I know there is so much truth in this episode especially his definition of lament and the 4 key elements. If you are walking through grief, you do not want to miss what he has to say. Also, I am so excited for someone to win a copy of Mark's book: *Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. All the details of the book giveaway are on my websithttps://amzn.to/3ZQG0FFe at jodisnowdon.com or you can click this direct link: https://kingsumo.com/g/1v94kdm/dark-clouds-deep-mercy-book-giveaway If you prefer watching the interview, here is a link on youtube to our episode: https://youtu.be/8bIA2CoerFg Book Recommendations: *Knowing God by JI Packer *Desiring God by John Piper *Waiting on God by Andrew Murray *Disciplines of a Godly Man by R Kent Hughes *Pilgrim Progress by John Bunyan For those walking through grief- I highly recommend Episodes 188-196 where I do one episode for each letter in my STRENGTH Acrostic in my book! See details below: Seek God and Invite Him into the Pain -- Depth Podcast Episode 188 Tearfully Allow Yourself Time to Grieve and Process the Emotions -- Depth Podcast Episode 189 Replace your Finite View with God's Infinite Perspective -- Depth Podcast Episode 190 Embrace God's Character Development in the Midst of the Chaos -- Depth Podcast Episode 191 Never Lose Sight of God's Grace -- Depth Podcast Episode 193 Give Praise to God Even as Your Heart Breaks -- Depth Podcast Episode 194 Trust God is Good When Your Mind is Doubting and You Don't Understand -- Depth Podcast Episode 195 Honestly Share Your Story and Help Another Hurting Heart -- Depth Podcast Episode 196 Mark Vroegop has been Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis since 2008. He previously served as Senior Pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Holland, Michigan, from 1996-2008. He's a graduate of Cedarville University (B.A.) and Cornerstone Theological Seminary (M.Div). Mark and his wife, Sarah, have three married sons, a daughter, and two grandkids. He's an award-winning author of multiple books, including *Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament, the 2020 ECPA Christian Book of the Year. His newest book, *Waiting Isn't a Waste released in June 2024 through Crossway. Mark is a frequent conference speaker, and he serves on the board of The Gospel Coalition. *Note: If you are interested in purchasing this book or the books recommended, I would love for you to use the Amazon Affiliate link above to help support the podcast. Thank you!

I had the awesome privileged today of getting to talk to pastor and author, Mark Vroegop about his latest book, “Waiting isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life." Our conversation covered, among other things, the motivation for the book, why waiting is both normal and difficult, how it is an opportunity for Christ to shine in and through us, and how waiting can reveal the idolatrous parts of our hearts. Hope you enjoy, that you are encouraged and challenged and that you inspired to go out and grab this book quick! Mark Vroegop (MDiv, Grand Rapids Theological Seminary) is the lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and the author of the ECPA 2020 Christian Book of the Year Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament. He's married to Sarah, and they have four children and three daughters-in-law.

In this episode, Mark Vroegop encourages Christians to not waste their waiting. Mark Vroegop is the lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and the author of 'Waiting Isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life' from Crossway. Read the full transcript of this episode. ❖ Listen to “Why Is Making Decisions So Hard?” with Aimee Joseph:  Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube If you enjoyed this episode be sure to leave us a review, which helps us spread the word about the show! Complete this survey for a free audiobook by Kevin DeYoung!

In this episode, I talk with pastor Mark Vroegop about his recent work on patience, waiting, and the Christian life. In our conversation, we also talk about pastoral ministry and the value of serving as a pastor-theologian. The books we discuss in this conversation are Waiting isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life (Crossway) and Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament (Crossway).     Vroegop is Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis. College Park Church has an excellent ministry training program called The Residency that offers theological education within the context of the local church.      This podcast is hosted by Ched Spellman (https://linktr.ee/chedspellman). Thanks for listening! Substack Series on the Canonical Approach: https://bit.ly/3rht399 My Most Recent Book: https://amzn.to/3ELxbBk Episode Sponsor:  https://cedarville.edu/gradpodcast Digital Tip Jar ("Buy Me a Coffee"): https://www.buymeacoffee.com/chedspellman Clarifying Note: The views of special guests are their own & do not necessarily reflect my own or the organizations with which I am formally and informally affiliated.

Join me for an incredible conversation with one of my favorite authors, Mark Vroegop!Mark is the author of one of my all-time favorite books, 2020 ECPA Christian Book of the Year, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. He's back with a powerful new book, Waiting Isn't a Waste: The Surprising Comfort of Trusting God in the Uncertainties of Life. From the publisher:Exploring 6 Characteristics of Waiting to Prompt Wisdom from God and Gain Invaluable PeaceThroughout our lives, we experience countless periods of waiting. Some moments are mere nuisances—others are daunting seasons filled with intense worry and doubt. We grow impatient by immovable traffic or crave an impending answer to a medical condition. Whatever our current circumstances, our innate response is to take action rather than stay still.In Waiting Isn't a Waste, author Mark Vroegop calls believers to resist the human urge for control and lean on Christ for comfort while we wait for the uncertainties of life to unfold. Vroegop explores what it means to wait on God through 6 important characteristics—waiting is hard, common, biblical, slow, commanded, and relational. This book not only teaches listeners how to wait on God but inspires them to embrace waiting—for it prompts wisdom from God and brings invaluable peace to the present.Written for Christians in Seasons of Waiting: Those struggling with anxiety, discouragement, or weariness as they waitExplores 6 Characteristics of Waiting: Waiting is hard, common, biblical, slow, commanded, and relationalWritten by Mark Vroegop: Author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, which was named the ECPA 2020 Christian Book of the YearMark Vroegop (MDiv, Grand Rapids Theological Seminary) is the lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and the author of the ECPA 2020 Christian Book of the Year Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament. He's married to Sarah, and they have four children and three daughters-in-law.Leave a voicemail with your question or comment!Five Ways You Can Support this show:Pray for us!Subscribe, like, and share it with your friends! (We even have a YouTube channel!)Leave reviews and comments wherever you listen to podcasts!You can become a paid partner of the podcast and get special bonus episodes and lots more content by clicking here. Visit one of our affiliate partners and consider using their products (we use them every day):Support and boost your immune system with Armra! Use DRLEEWARREN code at checkout for a discount!Improve your gut health, immune system, and protect your brain with Pique!Other Helpful Links:Click here to access the Hope Is the First Dose playlist of hopeful, healing songs!Be sure to check out my new book, Hope Is the First Dose!Here's a free 5-day Bible study on YouVersion/BibleApp based on my new book!Sign up for my weekly Self-Brain Surgery Newsletter here!All recent episodes with transcripts are available here!

On this episode of This vs. That, we talk with with Mark Vroegop about the concepts of frustration and anger. We explore how these emotions are often intertwined, and how they can be both righteous and unrighteous. Mark shares his experiences at College Park Church in Indianapolis and also provides a glimpse into his personal life. We examine the complexities of these emotions in the context of our faith and our responses to a world marked by sin and brokenness. We also discuss the balance of asking questions from a place of suffering versus a place of demand. Finally, we contemplate how dealing with these emotions requires strong theological foundations and faith. Resources Mentioned "Good and Angry" by David Powlison "Respectable Sins" by Jerry Bridges "Future Grace" by John Piper "Waiting on God" by Andrew Murray "The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment" by Jeremiah Burroughs "How Does Sanctification Work?" by David Powlison ----- We're thrilled to announce an exciting event held in partnership between Anchored Hope and Fieldstone Counseling. On June 21st of this year, we'll be hosting an exclusive lunch at the Gospel Coalition Women's Conference in Indianapolis, Indiana, featuring two of our dear friends, Michael Keller and Ed Welch. Michael and Ed will be sharing their unique perspectives on navigating the challenges that we face, both at home, in our relationships, and in the world with the wisdom of Christ. I hope that you'll make plans to join us at this event. Space is limited, so please register as soon as possible. All registrants will receive a boxed lunch, access to the event, as well as a complimentary book from P&R Publishing. For more information or to register, visit: ⁠⁠events.anchoredhope.co⁠⁠ ----- This vs. That is a podcast of Anchored Hope. Anchored Hope provides practical help to those hurting by anchoring their hope in Jesus and helping others gain a better understanding of his promises. We offer reputable, biblical counsel to those suffering or experiencing difficult seasons. Our counselors are highly trained and bring a vast experience in addressing the various issues of life. To meet with a counselor, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠anchoredhope.co⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and schedule an appointment today.

Back in October, my husband Brad and I had the opportunity to meet Mark Vroegop at the Our Hearts are Home conference in Indianapolis. Mark is the lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis.  He and his wife, Sarah, are the parents of four living children, and a daughter, Sylvia, who was stillborn in 2004.   He is the author of a book titled “Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament”, in which he explores how we can bring our sorrow to God by vocalizing our pain through honest spiritual wrestling. It was a blessing to have the opportunity to meet him at the OHAH conference, and I am sharing his presentation from that event with you today.  I hope this blesses you as much as it blessed me!   Click HERE to get a copy of Mark's book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy.Click HERE to watch this presentation from the Our Hearts Are Home conference on YouTube.  All views expressed by guests on this podcast are theirs alone, and may not represent the Statement of Faith and Statement of Beliefs of the While We're Waiting ministry. We'd love for you to connect with us here at While We're Waiting! Click HERE to visit our website and learn about our free While We're Waiting Weekends for bereaved parentsClick HERE to learn more about our network of While We're Waiting support groups all across the country. Click HERE to follow our public Facebook pageClick HERE to follow us on Instagram Click HERE to follow us on Twitter Click HERE to make a tax-deductible donation to the While We're Waiting ministryContact Jill by email at: jill@whilewerewaiting.org

In this episode the guys welcome back one of their favorite guests, Marla Vroegop, licensed social worker and counselor at College Park Church. She shares much of her research, insight and experience working through attachment theory with those in her care. This episode is especially poignant and beneficial, check it out today. Video referenced in episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeHcsFqK7So

One of College Park Church's 2023 "Think Conference" speakers joins the show today to discuss his book "Following Jesus in a Digital Age" and to help share a philosophy of using technology with wisdom and to the glory of God. To purchase Jason's book click here. 

He still loves ministering to young people. This lead pastor of an established church in College Park - Church on the Drive (formerly known as College Park Baptist Church) came to Orlando to serve his church as a youth pastor. But when the pastor retired, he was asked to step up as the Senior Pastor. This down-to-earth, and humble leader offers great advice - not just to pastors, but to all Christians who have a heart to reach today's youth.

So in a story of "It's not you, it's me" 20 years in the making. I talk about a lbgtq friendly church that has finally been voted out of the sbc 20 years after they left of their own accord.  Website: https://churchislame.com  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/churchislame  Twitter: https://twitter.com/churchislame  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@churchislame  Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/churchislame/  Email us at: churchislamepodcast@gmail.com You can only heal the things you admit are broken. Join us in our mission and get ad-free episodes by becoming a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/churchislame. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So in a story of "It's not you, it's me" 20 years in the making. I talk about a lbgtq friendly church that has finally been voted out of the sbc 20 years after they left of their own accord. Website: https://churchislame.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/churchislame Twitter: https://twitter.com/churchislame TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@churchislame Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/churchislame/ Email us at: churchislamepodcast@gmail.com --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/churchislame/message

On today's episode Ryan and Jeff are joined by Pastor Don Bartemus, pastor of compassion at College Park Church. Don has a unique perspective and experience as a pastor. He is on the front lines with grief and loss as the pastor of a large church who does the hospital and shut in visits as well as the primary pastor over funeral. Listen in as Don shares hard won wisdom on how caregivers can come along side the grieving with grace and compassion. 

Whether he likes it or not, Mark Vroegop has become known as “The Lament Guy.” Matt chats with Mark primarily about the place of prayers of lament in the Christian life and how utilizing this biblical prayer language is a gracious gift. Mark is the author of “Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy” and “Weep With Me.” ABOUT Mark Vroegop is the Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and is the author of two books: "Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament" — which won the Christian Book of the Year award in 2020 — and "Weep With Me: How Lament Opens A Door For Racial Reconciliation”. Plus, Mark just released the “Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy Devotional Journal.”

Pastor Steve Viars is joined by Pastor Mark Vroegop, Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis, and author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. Pastor Mark discusses how to use lament in counseling and the Christian life.

Pastor Steve Viars is joined by Pastor Mark Vroegop, Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis, and author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. Pastor Mark discusses how to use lament in counseling and the Christian life.

A quick 90 second promo about an upcoming event at College Park Church in Indianapolis, IN! Help us get the word out to those in the area. We really want to pack the house for this one. Share this promo on social media with the hashtag #loveintolight  For more details and to register, go here: www.yourchurch.com/loveintolight 

Mark Vroegop has been the Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis since 2008. He previously served as Senior Pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Holland, Michigan, from 1996-2008. Mark and his wife, Sarah, are parents of four living children and a stillborn daughter. They have three adult sons, a daughter, a daughter-in-law, and a Bernedoodle named Stella. He's the author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament. He was awarded the 2020 ECPA Christian Book of the Year and New Author Awards. His next book, Weep with Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation released in August 2020. Mark blogs at markvroegop.com. Follow on social media: Twitter @markvroegop Facebook: Mark Vroegop Instagram: vroegopmark Episode Talking Points Definition of biblical lament- prayer of pain that leads to trust in God Story of Mark's stillborn daughter Sylvia Turn-complain-ask-trust The decision of praise How lament shapes us for eternity The two ditches of denial and despair Resources Dark Clouds Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament Weep with Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-monday-christian/support

Join Jeff as he interviews Kelly Alexander, assistant director of soul care at College Park Church in Indianapolis, IN. Kelly shares her story including suffering she has experienced and how walking through that with Jesus has prepared and helped her care for others as a counselor. 

The Lydia Project's first book club episode is here! Listen in as Tori chats to Mark Vroegop - author of our first book club book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy - about the devastating loss of his daughter to stillbirth and how he came to learn to embrace the grace of lament.  In the book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament, Mark explains how lament is how you live between the poles of a hard life and trusting God's goodness. Lament is how we bring our sorrow to God—but it is a neglected dimension of the Christian life for many Christians today. We need to recover the practice of honest spiritual struggle that gives us permission to vocalize our pain and wrestle with our sorrow. Lament avoids trite answers and quick solutions, progressively moving us toward deeper worship and trust. Exploring how the Bible—through the psalms of lament and the book of Lamentations—gives voice to our pain, this book invites us to grieve, struggle, and tap into the rich reservoir of grace and mercy God offers in the darkest moments of our lives. Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy is available online or in bookstores worldwide. In Australia, a 15% discount is available for all Lydia Project Book Club books through The Wandering Bookseller. Simply use the discount code LYDIA15 at the checkout.  Bio: Mark Vroegop is the lead pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and the author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament, the ECPA 2020 Christian Book of the Year, and Weep with Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation. He's married to Sarah, and they have four children and a daughter-in-law. 

- Mark Vroegop I mean, it's just so private and so painful and so isolating at so many levels. And that's why I said grief isn't tame, because part of the viciousness of it is its unpredictability. Yeah, something can remind you, something can be a trigger. And it's just it's it's not controllable. It's not tameable. And I think understanding that is actually really helpful   INTRO Grief can rob you of language.  The feelings are so totalizing, so big and unwieldy.  You don’t know when or if the pain will end and the people around you seem to have little more to offer than trite platitudes like “It’s always darkest before the dawn.”   If you have been that grieving person, feeling so very alone with no one to listen or respond to your cry of pain, or if you have been that awkward friend or colleague, fumbling around for the right words and finding none, than this episode is for you.  Because this episode is all about lament.    Lament is a language of pain, of giving voice to the sorrow.  And my guest today is no stranger to lament.  In fact, Mark Vroegop has written a book on the topic called Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy.    The book is borne out of his life experience and the death of a daughter. But I will let him tell you more about that in the course of our interview.    Mark Vroegop is the Lead Pastor at College Park Church, a church on the northside of Indianapolis.  And, on a personal level, Mark has powerfully intersected with my own journey of pain and grief.  He was the one who stood graveside when our daughter, Mercy’s, body was lowered into the ground.  Sharing our pain and giving voice to our grief.  His honest reckoning with his own struggle and, ultimately, hope has ripple effects into my work as a Workplace Empathy Consultant.  So I am glad to welcome him to the show today.    And, just to note, Mark’s story is deeply intertwined with his Christian faith.  For those of you who do not share his faith, there might be language or concepts that are foreign to you, I welcome you to listen, as we listen to all of our guests, with a welcoming curiosity, embracing the concepts and wisdom that finds resonance with your spirit and letting anything else pass along.    And for those of you that are rooted in the Christian tradition, I believe that Mark’s writing and story could deepen your understanding of how the language of lament allows you to hold both grief and sorrow without having to just plaster a happy, religious platitude over your pain.    A little bit more about Mark:  he has taken up roasting his own coffee beans in the midst of the pandemic.  He loves the outdoors, although his is quick to clarify that he and his family no longer sleep in tents.    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, we love the outdoors, love anything exercise related outside of a big park nearby. Here you go. Creeks, my favorite place to go, kind of my happy place. And we are big campers. So when I say camper, think glampers.   - Mark Vroegop So we have a travel trailer that we now have that we've upgraded from a pop up. And we love just taking that thing out on a Friday, Saturday and enjoying the outdoors and some quiet. And we're looking forward to more opportunities to do that here soon.   Mark is the father to four living children.    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, so we have four children. We have three boys who are adults, twin boys. Our number one number two are out of college and one is married and two others are getting married soon.   Mark Vroegop We have a daughter who's in high school and mother in law that lives with us and a dog named Stella.   - Mark Vroegop So we have a really full and vibrant home with people coming in and out all the time and just love the opportunity to be in their lives and are thankful that they live in close proximity here to Indianapolis. So we can see them quite often.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, what a robust household and what a number of transitions you guys are collectively standing on, on the brink of.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we are in the middle of all kinds of transitions, that's for sure.   Yeah. Tell me a little bit.   - Liesel Mertes We're going to be talking about disruptive life events, the comforters that come alongside as poorly and the moment.   - Liesel Mertes And I know that your journey into that, both as a writer, pastor, speaker began from a really personal place. Would you set the scene of that story for us?   - Mark Vroegop Sure. So our first children were twins, so pregnancy wasn't a problem for us. In fact, the problem was we were too pregnant and my wife carried our twins to thirty nine and a half weeks. So she was a college athlete and twins were born six pounds, seven ounces, six pounds, 11 ounces. Kendall came on three days later. Just beautiful, fairly easy pregnancy apart from enormous discomfort. Third sons born, no complications whatsoever.   - Mark Vroegop Healthy baby boy and then 2003 we were pregnant with our daughter that we learned she was a daughter, Sylvia. And throughout the pregnancy, my wife just had this this fear that something wasn't right and she can be more fearful than what she would like.   - Mark Vroegop And so we just were praying through all of that. And at the very end of the pregnancy and their ninth month. Thirty nine weeks, actually, just a few days before delivery and Sunday night, she said something doesn't feel right.   - Mark Vroegop And I thought, wow, she's just nervous and fearful, like pregnancy is coming here to an end. And I get that. And we went to the doctor's office just to be sure, because she hadn't felt any movement. In a while and in the doctor's office, we found out the tragic news that are in utero daughter at thirty nine and a half weeks, just like I said a few days before delivery had mysteriously died and then she had to give birth to a deceased baby.   - Mark Vroegop We named her Sylvia.   - Mark Vroegop And yeah, that was not just a shock, but a trauma that really deeply affected us, because prior we had, you know, had all kinds of difficulties. Life wasn't easy, but nothing of this sort of caliber. Persay. So, yeah. And from there, we just then tried to begin moving on and healing and in that process had multiple miscarriages, had what was is called a blighted ovum. So we thought we were pregnant, dared to hope that we were pregnant, got excited, went for an ultrasound, only to find out that there's no baby there.   - Mark Vroegop And we had actually caught a miscarriage before we knew it. And so it just it was this. Year, two year journey of just immense, gut wrenching, everyday kind of grief that sometimes came in a tsunami and other times came like the tide that would come in and go out.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it was quite a journey to try and navigate through. So that's the hard providence that the Lord graced us with as a huge lesson in a way that we've also been able to help speaking to other people's pain as well.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. For sharing a little bit about Sylvia, I. I have your book in front of me. Dark clouds, deep mercy. And you write in there, My grief was not tame. It was vicious. Could you could you open up? You know, there's there's the overview. But I imagine in that first year or two, what did what did a particularly vicious moment that comes to mind for you look like?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it was one in particular is laying next to my wife and used a few days after we had buried Sylvia and she's just crying in a way that I never heard her cry before.   - Mark Vroegop And there was just this bone chilling fear of what if my wife is never happy again?   - Mark Vroegop What if our marriage is going to be in trouble? Because, you know, so many couples, when they lose a child, it creates an unusual level of stress.   - Mark Vroegop You know, how how do I help my kids move on and process grief when. You know, I don't even know how to process my own grief and and then just to the real pressure of, you know, in pastoral ministry and every week there's hospital visits and babies that are born and messages that need to be preached.   - Mark Vroegop And so, you know, and then when it's a miscarriage or we're trying to get pregnant and we're struggling, you know, it's not as though I can share a prayer request with the church. Hey, my wife got her period this week. Pray for us.   - Mark Vroegop I mean, it's just so private and so painful and so isolating at so many levels. And that's why I said grief isn't tame, because part of the viciousness of it is its unpredictability. Yeah, something can remind you, something can be a trigger. And it's just it's it's not controllable.   - Mark Vroegop It's not tameable. And I think understanding that is actually really helpful because it tends to normalize what at times you feel like is a sort of a crazed perspective on I've never felt this way and I don't know that it's sustainable.   - Mark Vroegop And by God's grace, it we made our way through it as the Lord helped us. But I felt like in the book and in helping people with their grief, to be honest, that no grief is not tame and it is vicious.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Mark and his story soon.  I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  The rate of change and disruption in 2021 is unrelenting.  As employers adjust to new rhythms and regulations, so you know if you are giving your people what they need to stay engaged and thrive?  Empathy training is an essential element of building a culture of care that supports mental health and values the whole person.  With keynote options, certificate programs, and coaching options, let Handle with Care Consulting help you confidently, consistently offer meaningful support when it matters most   MUSICAL TRANSITION     - Liesel Mertes As you're carrying that grief, who who did you find, especially in that, you know, immediate two year people? That we're really your people, that we're more in the know and actively supporting you.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, for sure. Family was super helpful, you know, extended family member walking out of the delivery room prior to Sylvia being born.   - Mark Vroegop And I grabbed my brother in law who's a dear friend, and I said, I need you to do something for me. And he said, What's that? And I said, Here's a camera. I need you to come in to this delivery room and I need you to take pictures, because this is all that we got. Yeah. And I mean, what a huge gift. Had two pastors who literally when I walked into the birthing room. I saw a little signia, picture on the door, which I knew was a symbol that a stillbirth was going to happen in this room from my chaplaincy orientation at the hospital when I saw it, it just my knees literally gave out and they literally carried me across the threshold into the room.   - Mark Vroegop It was a powerful kind of metaphor of their help.   - Mark Vroegop And then there were just other people we didn't locate our counsel or our support. And one particular person for some folks, that might be helpful.   - Mark Vroegop In our case, we had sort of a team of folks who didn't even know they were part of a team, quite frankly, former seminary professors, other people who had walked through seasons of difficulty, who at different times we were able to, you know, to talk with.   - Mark Vroegop And I think more than anything, besides just talking to the Lord, my wife and I, by God's grace, were able to process our grief and pain together.   - Mark Vroegop And so in that respect, my wife was my greatest advocate in the midst of grief and I hers, although that kind of bounced back and forth depending upon how each of us were doing throughout the course of a week.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I, I, I hear and resonate with. Some of the ways that especially, as you know, partners and spouses in the death of a child, you know, for for Luke and I as as Mercy died, you would want to think if anyone else understood what I was going through, it should be this person.   - Liesel Mertes You know, they've also lost this child.   - Liesel Mertes And there we found that there were ways that, yes, we really could be of help to each other, come alongside each other. But then the ways in which you miss the other person can just feel so painful.   - Liesel Mertes Like if you can't see me in this or if you're wanting, you know, if I'm feeling like I need to be with people and you want to be alone in those those aspects of distance could just in our story feel so wounded.   Liesel Mertes And yeah, I hear I hear dynamics of the complication that it can be to both support and miss each other in shared grief.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, very much so.   - Liesel Mertes Is it OK with you if I read you a short section from the introduction to your book? OK, you were talking about the comfort that was given to you at that time and you said, "When occasionally I candidly shared a few of the struggles of my soul. Some people reacted with visible discomfort. Others quickly moved to a desperate desire to, quote, find the bright side, a quick change of the subject in awkward silence or even physically excusing themselves to escape the tension.   - Liesel Mertes When people stayed in the conversation, they often responded in unhelpful ways. In moments of attempted comfort, people said things like, I'm sure the Lord will give you another baby or maybe more people will come to the faith because of the death of your daughter. Or the Lord must know he can trust you with this. Every person meant well. I appreciated their attempts to address our pain, but it became clear that most people did not know how to join us in our grief."   - Liesel Mertes That is in deep alignment with what I hear again and again in my work with businesses. But I would love for you to just expand a little bit on that sentiment. What was it like to absorb those misses from well-meaning people?   - Mark Vroegop Well, it was it was hard, but I don't blame them. I mean, grief is scary. It's we. Look at loss, and we want people to not be sad because there's something about loss and death and sorrow that just penetrates our sort of self-sufficient mindset as human beings.   - Mark Vroegop So grief is just terribly uncomfortable. And if you don't understand it or don't have a language to engage with it. My experience was, is that people and even I did this in pastoral ministry, we tend to revert to sort of these default positions that we think are helpful but end up not being helpful at all and then not having the skill set or the competency to walk with somebody in pain by having the courage and the competency to know it's OK for me not to say anything right now   - Mark Vroegop Because our bias towards fixing or explaining or wrapping it up in a nice little bow is often, in my experience, not designed to really comfort the griever. It's designed to relieve the tension that the person observing the grief feels. And so, you know, that's where I think lament is helpful, doesn't solve all the problems. But I think that gives us a language that we can sort of plumb the depths of deep sorrow with a little bit of a framework or some guardrails, if you will, to help us know what to do and maybe what not to do.   - Liesel Mertes Let me jump in there, because I know for some listeners, this might be one of the first times apart from, like studying a vocabulary list in high school or for the jury that they have encountered the word lament.   - Liesel Mertes Could you unpack that term? Tell us more about how lament has been helpful.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah. So lament, broadly defined, could just be thought of as, you know, deep sorrow.   - Mark Vroegop But from a Christian perspective, when I talk as a pastor and when I think about biblical lament, I define lament in my book as a prayer in pain that leads to trust. Each one of those words is really important. It's a prayer. So it's what people do. They talk to God. It's a prayer in pain. So something difficult has created this this unique kind of prayer. That's a prayer in pain that leads. It's designed to be process oriented.   - Mark Vroegop So it moves us from where we are to where we need to be. And it leads to trust. So in the Bible meant always has a resolution, even though the pain is it resolved. The prayer has a resolution where the person works through. I'm going to turn to God, I'm going to lay out what's wrong. I'm going to claim the promises of the Bible and I'm going to choose to trust and then I to do that over and over and over and over.   - Mark Vroegop And what's fascinating is the Bible is filled with this language, the book of Psalms, the song Book of God's community. One out of every three songs is a lament. And that lament speaks to all kinds of different experiences, whether it's personal lament, corporate lament, repentance, lament or something. It's also called an precatory lament, like when injustice happens, what people say lament can be that language. So it's not just at a personal level, but even at a corporate level.   - Mark Vroegop Lament is the language of people who are in pain.   - Mark Vroegop And as they talk to God,   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, this this deep soul-ish movement into not hiding from the sorrow, but naming it and embracing that process.   - Liesel Mertes As you said, you you mentioned within that, you know, we read a little from the book Ways in which people missed you in your pain, some of these well-meaning turns of phrase that are much more to escape the discomfort of the moment.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of the best things that people did as they came alongside you and your family in those immediate stages of grief?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, presence mattered, like the ability to just be with us and to be quiet and to sit in our pain, the ability to just say I'm sorry and be OK with the tension of that grief, folks who simply tried to meet a need, brought meals, just tried to love us as human beings, not just as grievers, people who loved on our kids and helped them to know that they were special and important as mom and dad were in a hard and difficult place.   - Mark Vroegop And all the things the church did was they sent us to Florida for a period of time, maybe five to six days. And it's just a silly thing, you'd think. But they actually paid for us to go to to Disney World. And, you know, you lose a baby and then go to Disney World. But I'll just never forget walking through the streets of of Disney World there with the castle in front of me and my kids literally kissing on my wife's arm.   - Mark Vroegop And it was just really good for them to be happy for just a moment, even though we were deeply grieving.   - Mark Vroegop And I remember standing in line and my wife still showed the signs of pregnancy. And a woman, well-meaning, asked her, "how far along are you?" And I forget when my wife answered, but she mentioned something really graciously, just not giving her the whole story. But what do you say? I don't have a baby with me, but I look pregnant and, you know, so it was just and so here we are really grieving.   - Mark Vroegop But our kids were able to experience some level of of happiness and joy, which was our joy, too.   - Liesel Mertes I'm a I'm glad as a podcast host that you told that story because I I think of that community of people who.   - Liesel Mertes We just felt, you know, felt the goodness and the movement to send you that way, because as Luke and I walked our own journey with mercy, I think I think it was out of that story. I think we had heard you say that, that we we thought we we have to get out of you know, I really felt I have to get out of Indianapolis. We have to have a change of scenery. And it gave us the freedom.   - Liesel Mertes And I actually reached out to a business school professor and mentor at the time who I knew had an extra house in Arizona and said, can we can we just stay there?   - Liesel Mertes You know, my my daughter has just died and she so graciously let us stay. And it was such an important and a good time. And I had the same thing happen standing in line at the airport, some really well-meaning family who was just elated to think I was pregnant. So I connect deeply with that. And I it just makes me think of the ways in which we extend ourselves to bless people that are hurting, like the ripple effect of that goodness, you know, came down to my family, however, many years later through a colleague at a business school, you know, to to bless us and that kind of way.   - Liesel Mertes So I love the the legacy of blessing that comes out of that sort of attuned encouragement in the moment for sure.   - Liesel Mertes It also causes me to tuck away, I so seldom ever comment on a woman who looks pregnant after those sorts of experiences.   - Liesel Mertes I think you have no idea what is going on.    - Liesel Mertes And there are so many other ways to make small talk. If they want to tell you about their baby, they will.   - Liesel Mertes I have found in as I have worked with couples who have walked through miscarriage or even within, you know, Luke's own story, miscarriage is hard to bear. If it is acknowledged at all, it's often couched within the woman's experience, I remember a mutual friend of ours telling Luke, Gosh, I think this is probably sad for you.   - Liesel Mertes It can't be as hard as it is for Liesel. But, you know, and just kind of passing over.   - Liesel Mertes Did you find within your own experience that some of that misalignment or or failing to grasp how miscarriage could impact the life of a male partner was present?    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, that wasn't a huge issue for us. And I can understand why it would be for others. I would say that I did find that where I was processing and where Sarah was processing, that we were, in fact in different places as relates to miscarriages.   - Mark Vroegop So she felt that more deeply than than what I did. And that took us some time to be able to kind of work through or just, you know, I was sort of the one who was optimistic, like. Look, it's OK, we got time, you know, let's let's just keep trying, keep praying, and she it was deeper for her.   - Mark Vroegop It was. And it took me a while to realize that. And so, yeah, thankfully, nobody mentioned sort of that as a, you know, statement.   - Mark Vroegop I did find that I had to get my head around how to process my wife's grief differently than mine, so we were both were grieving but grieving in different ways and for different reasons. And sometimes that manifested itself in some pretty challenging ways.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that. What was important, as you learned and navigated that journey of sometimes misaligned grief?   Mark Vroegop Well, one was just trying to be sure that we were understanding where each other were, because, you know, the challenge with grief is it can make you really selfish.   - Mark Vroegop You've got every right in the world to only think of yourself. And grief tends to give you tunnel vision.   - Mark Vroegop I remember one time one of our biggest conflict moments came when I came home and Sylvia's room had been all set up for her.   - Mark Vroegop You know, we were expecting her to come home. So the crib was set up, all the clothes were out. And I came home and my wife was packing all of that up. She was taking the crib apart. And I was like, what do you what are you doing? And she's like, we're not going to get pregnant. And I want to take this down. And that crib and that stuff in that room was like a symbol of hope for me.   - Mark Vroegop And it was a vicious teaser to her or an accuser that this was never going to happen. So here we walk into the same room and I see it as a place of comfort and future. She sees it as a place of mocking.   - Mark Vroegop And yeah, that so that's just like one example of how we're coming at the same thing from two very different angles.   - Mark Vroegop I think it is important for folks to realize that their processing of grief can't be projected on other people. No two people grieve the same. And our tendency is to think that the way that I've grieved is the way that everybody should grieve because of how intense it is. Hard to imagine that anybody could grieve any other way in which I do because of how hard it is.   - Mark Vroegop So that would just be an example of how there were moments when we missed things and we just need to give each other a lot more space to grieve. Well, but also realizing to realize, but also to realize that we're not the only one grieving here just to be more sensitive to each other and by God's grace, that happen, but not without without some bumps along the way.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. There's David Kessler is a writer and psychologist and is he was talking about some of the numbers that are put to the number of marriages that fall apart in the aftermath of a child's death.   - Liesel Mertes One of the things that he has found in his counseling, study and research, he would say a huge contributor to that is just judgment of another person's grief process.   - Liesel Mertes And that really struck me. I was like, that rings true experientially of how that can underlie a lot of aspects of dysfunction as the volume is just so high, everybody is feeling what they feel pretty intensely.   - Liesel Mertes Sylvia died, there is the immediate grief journey, what has been how many years has it been now since her death?   - Mark Vroegop Well, I'm a terrible mental math guy, but she died in 2004. So 17 years, 17.   - Liesel Mertes You did it   - Mark Vroegop I did it   - Liesel Mertes Mental math, right there.   - Liesel Mertes What has been important in intermediate and long term grief as people have continued to support you?   - Mark Vroegop You know, I've got a pastor at my previous church that every birthday. That Sylvia would have had he sends me a text and just says, hey, just thinking of you today and praying for you means the world like it's just it's crazy how kind and helpful it is, because, you know, one of the deep pains, particularly with stillbirth or the loss of a child, is the loss of the future.   - Mark Vroegop And when somebody says, you know, how many kids do you have? Well, for the first year or so, we felt like we needed to say, you know, four because Sylvia counted. And then over time, after our other daughter, Savannah, was born, you know, we stopped adding. All of that into the equation and. So just the fact that folks remember and that she counts because she counts for us, she counts deeply.   - Mark Vroegop So those sort of moments, Christmases and and birthdays are extraordinarily, you know, important.   - Mark Vroegop And then also just folks who who saw the redemptive nature of what kind of God was doing in us through all of this that was meaningful as they would indicate or share how they saw God's grace shining through us in the midst of our brokenness and how helpful and instructive it was.   - Mark Vroegop So, so not forgetting and also helping in some measure to see over the long term the fruit that God was reaping was helpful, doesn't bring Sylvia back, but it does serve to help us to see how that.   Mark Vroegop Pain isn't pointless.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, those those questions, like the number of children in your household can can feel very tricky. I, I connect with that. I have I've had times where, you know, we have had five children and I've people have just asked me socially and I said, well, we have four and I will have a child with me say, no, we have we have five made conversation stream.   - Liesel Mertes And just to reflect on a. Yeah, how particular can be for those remaining children at various moments to want to hear that acknowledgement, even if I've gauged socially, like maybe maybe I won't say it now, maybe it's just not worth going into. And, yeah, those little reminders along the way.   - Liesel Mertes Your book, which I would love to hear more about, but it is full of ways in which you have taken some of your personal experience and it affects your practice with other people. I want to hear more about your book, but I want to start with that place.   - Liesel Mertes How how is your posture different now as a result of Sylvia in the way that you come alongside people in their grief and sorrow?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it's sort of like I speak a different dialect or even different language, so that when they're saying something, I sort of have a translator to know. I think I know what they're saying. Other people maybe have an experience. Deep levels of grief may not understand what the grieving person is trying to communicate. It certainly made me more aware of the nature of grief and lots of other spaces.   - Mark Vroegop And it. It made my first step to be one of deep sympathy and empathy with folks who are grieving and gave me a little bit of a resolve or a balanced conviction that it's OK for me not to have to fix this mess and just   - Liesel Mertes Can I pause for for just one second?   - Liesel Mertes I I'd love to dig a little bit deeper that you talked about that first inclination of empathy and being with what what does that look or sound like for you in different situations?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it looks like being present. It looks like personal touch.   - Mark Vroegop It looks like saying I'm sorry. And in many cases it means being there silent with a grieving person.   - Mark Vroegop It's being OK saying I have no idea what to say right now and realizing that that's some of the most comforting things that you can say   - Mark Vroegop More, I think it just helps just to know maybe what not to say and to kind of resist the urge or inclination to to solve, to fix, to and to silence, to contain grief is a wave that just needs to be ridden with somebody as opposed to some problem that we need to solve.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I, I talk about that in my work, we have some some avatars we'll talk about. Are you manifesting as a Buck-Up, Bobby right now? Or a Cheer-Up Cheryl or a Fix-It Frank, amongst others, these postures that we take...Well, as you said, out of our own personal discomfort, the ways it triggers us, the way we feel inadequate or just.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, the desire to to make it better for someone and the release that can come in realizing there's there's not actually something to be said that magically makes all the pain of this better. And I can release myself from having to find that in this moment.   - Mark Vroegop Right, exactly.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us about your book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, Discovering the Grace of Lament.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, throughout the years following Sylvia's death, I started just exploring kind of the contours of grief as I would read things in the Psalms.   - Mark Vroegop And started doing some teaching and kind of the darker Psalms, and when I would teach on them, people would kind of come out of the woodwork and like say things like, you just described what my last couple of years have been like. And then I did some teaching on the Book of Lamentations on Lamentations is the longest lament in the Bible. And it just became apparent that this language of lament was a gap that so many of us, including myself, just needed to think about.   - Mark Vroegop And, you know, most people don't set out to study lament. Usually lament finds them.   - Mark Vroegop Hmm. And as I began to investigate the subject more fully, began to realize that people need this language and it could be helpful, therapeutic, empowering in terms of helping and serving other people who are in the middle of their grief. And folks just started asking me, like, do you have anything else on this? And I was like, no, I don't. And have you written anything? Like, No, I haven't. And. Do you know anything that's out there that's, you know, theologically robust and, you know, compassionate?   - Mark Vroegop I'm like, there's just not much many books on this. And so I thought, well. Seems like maybe I should try to do something to meet that need, and so 2014 and 15 developed the idea and. Just wanted to try and do something that would help people, and quite frankly, I, I didn't didn't know if the book would be well received. When I first pitched it to some people in the publishing world, they were like, aren't we talking about.   - Mark Vroegop And I was like, I know, I get it. But let me explain this to you. And so, by God's grace, got the opportunity to publish the book. And it's it's proven to be way more helpful than what I thought. I knew people needed this language, but my experiencing in publishing the book is just really even proving it a 100 fold. Mm hmm.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and something that I love about the book is.   - Liesel Mertes It's it's full of your heart as someone who has grieved, as someone who has come alongside people in grief, it is both spiritual and conceptual, but even the last chapters that are eminently practical, how do we take this idea of, yes, I buy-in, lament is important and begin to integrate it into our practices and personal lives?   - Liesel Mertes You know, even even the movement that funerals are all celebrations of life. What does that, how does that constrain instead of release us in some of those ways?   - Liesel Mertes So it just comes through richly in your work   - Mark Vroegop Thank you.   What is one of the ways, you know?   - Liesel Mertes Publishing something like a book is is releasing its I imagine it could be like releasing a child into the world, like go forth and grow. What has been one of the most surprising and pleasing ways to you that your book has been used or made connections out in the world?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, you know, the book released in 2019. And by. May of 2020, it had gotten into spaces and had been put in the hands of people that I would have never imagined would be reading it. And so it. And there's a book award called the ECPA Book Award, and and so that it won the Book of the Year award in Christian Publishing, and it just was stunning to me that in the midst of our sorrow and loss here, now we enter into a global pandemic where people are lamenting everything.   - Mark Vroegop And the way that lament serves not only for personal grief, like I thought that it would, but lament now has an expansion from a cultural standpoint at so many levels and then that. Led to another book that connects lament and racial reconciliation and how does lament play a role in that? And so what's been remarkable is just to see the way the language of lament is really helpful at so many levels and in ways and in places that I hadn't thought that it would be.   - Mark Vroegop And so I I didn't anticipate the book being very well received by God's grace. It has been. And I just think it. It's an example of how much grief and pain there is in the world and how much we need a language that can help us.   - Liesel Mertes Mark, are there any questions that it would be helpful for me to ask you that I have not yet asked you?   - Mark Vroegop Sometimes people wonder how exactly do I lament the back of the book? I even have some worksheets. And, you know, it's it's a helpful framework for processing through grief and for prayer, because laments involve kind of a movement of turn, complain, ask and trust. And so I, I use that as a regular prayer for him. Not every day, but each of those steps are super helpful. In fact, I've often recommended that somebody study, lament, psalm and look for those four key movements, turn, complain, ask and trust, see how the Bible expresses each of those four movements and then kind of on the other side of the page to write out your own prayer in light of what you see.   - Mark Vroegop The Psalmist praying. So, for example, Psalm 13. How long, oh, Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? And I find it really helpful to see that the Bible talks that way so that then I could write my own prayer and finish the sentence. How long will the Lord will?   - Mark Vroegop And, you know, every so many days I kind of need that prayer because my life got lots of grief in it. And so lament by using these varying forms or elements can can really be a helpful way to navigate difficult times by regularly turning, complaining, asking and trusting and doing that over and over and over and over.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. That's good. Thank you. Anything else that you would like to add?   - Mark Vroegop I just think it's wonderful that you're engaging in this space, because I think. People need to know how to help other people grieve, and it's one of the most important, one of the most transformative and one of the most complicated seasons of a person's life.   - Mark Vroegop So, you know, I've heard senior executives say you should always be reading a book on leadership.   - Mark Vroegop I think it's true. But it would also seem that every person ought to have some sort of competency in how to navigate grief, because either we're going to be grieving at some point in time or we're going to be in proximity to someone else who is grieving and in that. Opportunity, you can do a lot of really good stuff and be really helpful. I think it's presented a great opportunity for Grace to be extended to hurting people. And that's what people who are grieving the they need a lot of help.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't I couldn't agree more. As I say, I look back on my own training in, you know, master's degree in management studies.   - Liesel Mertes I thought, how is this such a complete oversight in the curriculum? Because if you manage any number of people for any amount of time, you will be managing someone and leading and being in relationship with someone who is grieving. And a non-acknowledgement or a misstep is its own form of mismanagement. And, you know, we can grow in this.   - Liesel Mertes And it's so good to have tools like your book to help people along the way.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark… I agree with Mark, we all need a competency with grief; it is a key part of leadership and just being human.Whether it is in our own life or in the lives of those we care about, hard things will come.  A language of lament that willingly looks at and whole-heartedly enters into pain is so essential for healing. If your interest has been piqued by Mark and his work, there is a link to his book in the show notes.  Some griefs cannot be fixed, they can only be carried.Sometimes silence and presence are the most powerful ways that you can come alongside another person.  Release yourself from the pressure to suddenly have the right thing to say.  Give a hug, bring some cookies. Through your empathy, your compassion, and your care, your can have ripple effects that extend way beyond a single moment.When you care for someone well, you are co-creating a wider culture of care.  The community that blessed Mark and his family with a trip led Mark to encourage Luke and I to take our children on a trip after the death of our daughter.  Their kindness poured into us in ways that are powerful.  Take heart, you might never know the full effects of your kindness in the life of another person.   OUTRO   You can find out more about Mark’s book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, here:  https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Clouds-Deep-Mercy-Discovering/dp/1433561484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534035599&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+clouds+deep+mercy

Megan & Karen, counseling group leaders at College Park Church join Ryan to discuss group counseling and the impact it has had in their lives and in the lives of others they have been in groups with! Hear why they call counseling groups "a risk you won't regret!" 

Jeff & Ryan introduce themselves and discuss what to expect on the Soul Care Matters Podcast. The guys also invite listeners to join them for the annual THINK conference (virtual) at College Park Church. This year's conference theme is "A Conversation on Anxiety, Shame, and Depression. www.yourchurch.com/think21 

In February 2021, EFCA pastors and church leaders gathered virtually for the annual Theology Conference. The focus was on the theme “The Psalms: The Undershepherds’ Shepherd.” On this episode of the podcast, we share Rev. Mark Vroegop’s message on “The Psalms and Christian Lament.” Rev. Vroegop serves as Lead Pastor and Elder at College Park Church, Indianapolis, Indiana.

Member of the Society of Reformed Podcasters WELCOME TO BOOK CLUB! Make sure you listen to the end of the episode for a book giveaway! Sally Michael co-founder of Truth78 and has authored curricula and books that are all marked by a passion for developing God-centered resources for the spiritual development of children. For 16 years, Sally served as minister for children at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, under the leadership of John Piper and her husband, David. Sally and David live in Indianapolis where they serve families at College Park Church. They enjoy spending time with their daughter Kristi, daughter Amy and her husband Gary, and three grandchildren. We want to thank Truth78 for setting up this interview and providing us with the necessary materials to interview Sally Michael! Purchase the book here: More than a Story Have Feedback or Questions? Email us at: guiltgracepod@gmail.com Find us on Instagram: @guiltgracepod Follow us on Twitter: @guiltgracepod Please rate and subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you use! Looking for a Reformed Church? North American Presbyterian & Reformed Churches --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/gggpodcast/support

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

(00:00-08:25): 3 from John MacArthur’s Church Test Positive for Coronavirus. Column: Pritzker’s COVID-19 shutdown and the death of those great independent restaurants we love. 'We're not going to control the pandemic,' Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows says in heated interview. (08:25-26:57): We were joined by Mark Vroegop, the Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis. He’s the author of “Weep with Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation.” In an effort to bridge the canyon of misunderstanding, insensitivity, and hurt, Mark Vroegop has written this timely resource about the biblical practice of lament, which he defines as “the biblical language of empathy and exile, perseverance and protest.” Encouraging you to “weep with those who weep” (Rom. 12:15), Vroegop invites you to mourn with him over the brokenness that has caused division and to use lament to begin the journey toward a diverse and united church. (26:57-36:14): Arthur Brooks writes “Are We Trading Our Happiness for Modern Comforts?” in The Atlantic. As society gets richer, people chase the wrong things, Brian and Ian discuss this. (36:14-45:39): ‘Pro-life Evangelicals for Biden’ signers face a fiery blowback. After Joel Hunter recently announced support for former Vice President Joe Biden, a local Christian radio station cancelled Hunter’s devotionals, hosts withdrew (or postponed) speaking invitations and a social media hostility barrage erupted. (45:39-55:17): Brian and Ian revisit the John Piper article “Policies, Persons, and Paths to Ruin Pondering The Implications Of The 2020 Election”. PLUS, If you want to get a sense of the current state of evangelical Trumpism read the reactions to John Piper’s recent anti-Trump post. (55:17-1:04:38): Craig Groeschel writes “Your Marriage Will Be As Good As You Both Decide It Will Be” in Relevant Magazine. (1:04:38-1:14:19): Joe Carter writes “Eat, Pray, Love: How Families Grow Stronger During the Pandemic” in The Gospel Coalition.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

Dillon Manthooth, Youth Pastor at College Park Church in Greenville, joins Laura Beth Kirsop on this episode to discuss how outreach ministries, like Released Time education can connect youth and families to the local church. Dillon also provides encouragement on how to come alongside youth during a challenging time like the one we are facing right now with COVID-19. Learn more: www.clcofgreenville.org Connect with us: Facebook: Facebook.com/clcofgreenville Instagram: Instagram.com/clcofgreenville LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clcofgreenville/ Song: Feeling of Sunlight by Danosongs Episode hosted by Laura Beth Kirsop, CLC Development Associate Key words/Phrases: education, youth, bible Classes, Public School, Bible class in public school, youth group, Greenville, SC, Greenville South Carolina, Online Bible Class, Released-Time Bible Class, Online Learning; Peacemaking, Biblical literacy, youth outreach

For our third episode, we are excited to welcome Mark Vroegop and Trillia Newbell as our guests. Mark is the Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis and is the author of Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament, which was named the 2020 ECPA Book of the Year. Most recently, he has published Weep with Me: How Lament Opens a Door for Racial Reconciliation. Trillia has published several books, including the children's book God's Very Good Idea: A True Story About God's Delightfully Different Family. She is a sought after speaker, and her articles are often featured in outlets such as Christianity Today and the Gospel Coalition. She is currently is the Director of Community Outreach for the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the Southern Baptist Convention.

Zach has a conversation with Mark Johnson. Kyle Riley and Jeff Brown to hear their take on the racial division in our country. They also speak about the issues of privilege, systemic racism, and racial trauma and some action steps Christians and churches can take to reduce it. Mark is the Student and Community Care Pastor at Crosspoint Church in Fishers, IN, Kyle is the Downtown Campus Pastor of Traders Point Christian Church in Indianapolis, IN, and Jeff is the Assistant Pastor of Discipleship & Diversity at College Park Church in Indianapolis, IN.  Instagram: @drmarkjohnson Instagram: @kyle.riley Instagram: @jab_junior www.crosspointweb.org www.yourchurch.com The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby Anti-Racism Resources

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

The weekly podcast of College Park Church led by Pastor Mark Wagnon. If this ministry has impacted your life and you would like to sow into College Park Church financially, you can do so by going to http://www.collegeparkchurch.org/give/.

Pastor Mark Vroegop, Lead Pastor of College Park Church in Indianapolis, Indiana teaches what it would be like to Restore a vision for the Word and Prayer.