Handle with Care: Empathy at Work

- Joshua Driver And so it's always been confusing to me why startups don't think about their culture from day one. And because we spend so much of our wake time at work, especially on our stage and the positive vibes or feelings you get out of helping others or contributing to the betterment of your community or society or making a difference for somebody else is such an important experience I think everybody should have,   INTRO   Why aren't we focusing on culture from Day 1?  Today, we look at building connection in the world of start-ups.  My guests are Josh Driver and Zach Rodenbarger from Selfless.ly.  They have a lot to say about how to build connection AND their technology platform is also a platform for companies to give back, so this is like a double-impact interview.    Zach and Josh's origin story begins just before the pandemic, launching their platform with high hopes and ideals into a pretty brutal business environment.    They are talking about how they sustained connection, built their company, and expanded the scope of influence in the midst of the dual pressures of start-up life and a bruising global pandemic.  As a bit of a teaser, you will hear about the importance of taking a walk, how “hangry” can get in the way of communication, and why Nerf guns could be a good idea for your office culture.    Zach and Josh are both tech guys who are from the same Indiana town of Valparaiso.  The met in 2018, committed to the concept of building a platform where companies and individuals can give not just money but time and effort to support causes that matter.  The website describes the platform memorably:  “Selfless.ly is a unique company that was designed by selfless people to help the world become a better place.”     - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I'd love to hear from both of you. Why do you think that that is even an important conversation to be having? And how would you define empathy work to me.   - Zach Rodenbarger There's a few tangible examples.   That is Zach Rodenbarger, the COO of Selfless.ly   - Zach Rodenbarger Sometimes in our interactions, Josh will come in or I'll come in and we'll have something and go back and forth. And then one of us will say, do you need to go for a walk?   - Zach Rodenbarger And I was like.   - Zach Rodenbarger Yes, I need to go for a walk. I need a little fresh air, you. And maybe that's just because we've been at our computers for a couple of hours or longer and need to have take a pause and have a step back. And so we've had that over the year, especially when we're working hard and looking at new timelines and goals and things. And I know I've needed a walk or two here and there.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes We had other good practices. Sometimes it's a walk. I also find that sometimes it's a snack. I have you eaten recent links to a snack?   - Joshua Driver Yes. We've encountered the snack situation as well. Yes. Hunger is a thing so much.   And this is Josh Driver, fellow-hangry sufferer and the Founder of Selfless.ly   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That was like one of my biggest learning curves early on in my marriage. I I used to think it was just Luke. It's totally both of us be like, Is this really a thing, or am I just really hungry right now? And you can't know until you're no longer hungry, like, you can't even find out.   - Zach Rodenbarger I think that's a good follow up on empathy. It's probably easier to see in other people. And then when do we take that step back and look at ourselves and actually admit that? And I think that is really helpful to business partnership or even as we continue to onboard new employees, you know, thinking through, how am I coming across to others?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But also, do you put yourself in their shoes and how are they feeling and so kind of both well and hearing that it actually takes a foundation of some relationship and trust to be able to take someone suggestion to do something like, go for a walk. I can imagine that a less mature or self aware moments. Somebody being like, maybe even the way it could be delivered. Just go take a walk. Somebody being like, I don't need a walk. You need a walk? No, I'm just making a really good point.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But to be able to be at a place where I imagine it takes some work get to that point.   - Zach Rodenbarger Absolutely.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes A lot of times I find with guests or people I get to work with those that really, like, are doing the work of promoting more human workplaces and more connection at work. There's an element that comes out of their own personal experience. So I would love to hear from both of you a time where meeting that connection and empathy at work was really important in your own personal story, so that could be giving it to someone or a time where you were like, I'm not. Okay. I need some support right now.   - Joshua Driver Yeah. I think when I left the startup space and went into a corporate job, I came into a workplace environment and culture that might have been a little hostile and toxic. Like, there is a big disconnect between the leadership and the teams and the mentality of you're lucky to have a job versus we're lucky to have you as an employee. I wasn't exactly realized yet. And I had noticed when I join the company in my role that there was a lot of hostile communication. People had segregated themselves on one side or another and coming into that since I had been startups for so long and been on the ground for creating that culture.   - Joshua Driver That was very new to me to be in the middle of this disconnect. And it taught me personally about how I want my next company to run and where I think we needed to head and be ego free and transparent and communicate in more of a we're all on the same level here. Like, don't view me as your boss. We're just jumping in together to fix an issue. And I think as far as feeling left out or where I really could have used some support was when my first full time job was as an EMT here, then wished hospital and going through some of the things for the first time and all the trauma there.   - Joshua Driver There's no debrief or support. I think it's better now than it was, but you kind of had to process and cope individually with some of the things that you would see. And so that was really difficult for me to overcome at times when you have to process seeing the such negative things at times.   - Joshua Driver Quite frankly, like volunteering someplace and getting the I feel like I'm making a positive difference outside of the trauma of emergency medicine was a big driving factor. A lot of my coworkers and stuff would turn to substance abuse and other things sometimes, but I was fortunate enough to have a good support system, whether it was my family or friend group to where if things were really getting rough, that somebody would jump in and say, hey, let's catch up or reconnect. And so I was lucky in that regard.   - Joshua Driver But a lot of first responders, unfortunately, don't have that type of network to help them with that.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Thank you for sharing that. And I imagine even as you talk about the importance of volunteering, that there's a through line to some of what you're currently doing.   - Joshua Driver Yeah.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Zach, how about for you?   - Zach Rodenbarger So for me, with thinking through empathy in my past experiences, we can look to even just in the early days of self asleep and thinking about, hey, we both took this leap to start something new. And then about six months later, COVID hits. And so how do we work through this time where everything just radically changed, where we just launched the company? We launched the company in January and February of 2020. And then a month later, radically different thinking through. How is my co founder feeling right now?   - Zach Rodenbarger How do I stay optimistic and pass that along to him and vice versa? We're both kind of feeling these challenges and seeing this real time, right that we had these ideas and projections and we're going to create group, volunteering outdoors, and we're going to invite people to these events and then that's not going to happen. And so how do we really think through and change that strategy? But also, how did I think through, you know, both of us leaving our corporate jobs to do this. And so losing that security and saying, okay, I understand that this is maybe something he's going through right now and the pressure he's going through.   - Zach Rodenbarger So how do I stay optimistic to then pass that along and vice versa? And that was really helpful during those times?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Did you ever have days where you were both just like, really down in the dumps? It wasn't like one person could encourage the other. It was just both low, especially early on in that pandemic.   - Zach Rodenbarger For me, I think for the most part, one or the other would see that and feel that and maybe because we're both high empaths. So if Josh was down, I was like, I can't be or vice versa. He may have a different perspective, but I remember thinking that. And so even though it was a really tough day, this is what it's all about. And so I'll stay positive or vice versa. And he would look at me be like, this is when he needs to step up.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah,   - Joshua Driver I can't remember specifically when we had those times. But I remember even if we were going to be talking to a specific person turning in, saying, I don't have an inmate today to have this conversation. Do you mind just taking this on your own and doing that? I remember a few times where we had that discussion where if we're both feeling challenged, which is actual, we there. See, I think there were a few times where we might have just said, let's just call it a day early and go for a walk or go get a slice of pizza or something and and get out of the office for a little bit or go to the Lake each like, I think within reason we would step up on behalf of each other where we needed to.   - Joshua Driver It was just not the perfect day. Just saying, alright, let's take a break in re energize and come back to it tomorrow.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That can be so good. And it sounds like really, of course, of course, that would be a good thing to do. But it's amazing how hard sometimes it can feel in the moment, especially with the entrepreneurial churn and pressures and one's own expectations. So I acknowledge how important that can be and how like sometimes it can feel harder to do than it seems is a good job cutting.   - Joshua Driver I like to just get burn myself out trying to work on the issue at hand. Zach, does a really good job of cutting me off for like of a meter and saying, this is all the time we have for this. We need to move on. Otherwise, I'll sit down whatever whatever issue is at hand. So he does a good job of saving my own sanity.   - Zach Rodenbarger I definitely like to break tasks up into the smallest parts and pieces and just get something done for that day or something like that. And Josh definitely wants to power through and accomplish it all in one day.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I am that trait, Josh. It makes me think there was a there was a friend that I had in College and we used to kind of like joke about his mindset. We would joke that Ben would break his whole day down into micro goals, and it always allowed him to feel good about himself because he would be like, I'm on even the little things. Like, I'm gonna walk through the quad more efficiently than ever before and talk to two people. And I used to think like, what a funny quirk about how Ben's mind works.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But now I look and I'm like, man, Ben was probably just 15 years ahead of all of us in self awareness of like, oh, that's maybe a key to living like a more bounded and contented existence than the rest of us had a handle on at 22.   - Joshua Driver Yes, Zach is close to that, and I envy that very much because I don't have that level of organization and granularity that see and your friends have.   MUSICAL TRANSITION Building connection at work is important…and it can be hard to know where to start.  What can you do to support the mental health of your people, to care for them and keep them engaged in the midst of all of the pressures and disruption?  You don't have to figure it out on your own; let Handle with Care Consulting help.  With keynote options, certificate programs, and coaching sessions available, we have a solution to meet your needs and budget.  Sign up for a free consultation at lieselmertes.com.  Together, we can put empathy to work.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I find in building connections with people, there are times where it feels really easy and natural and times where it's a lot more challenging. What are times in either of you or both of you can answer where building connection at work feels really easy for you. And why.   - Joshua Driver Interesting. I would say that I'm   - Joshua Driver I love to people watch, and I'm always interested in everybody's story. How did you get to where you are today? What experiences have you had? And so it's easy for me to get to know people because I'm just naturally just so curious about everyone's story.   - Zach Rodenbarger I find I have to be maybe a little more intentional to provide that space to connect. And maybe that even goes to our overall topic of empathy to take a second and say, okay, if I was coming in on the first day or the second week, how would I want to be treated? Because I think it's easy for me. And as I mentioned earlier, probably Josh, it's easy for us to just kind of put our heads down and work. And so taking that time and being giving that space as well to make the connection, even if it's at lunch time only or something.   - Zach Rodenbarger But at least you're very focused on allowing that space to chat and providing that because I know for me during the workplace, well, we'll chat later or something, but if you don't provide that space, then obviously it's harder to make that connection, especially in the first week, the first six months, and things like that and thinking, when would I want to have someone reach out to me whether they're a colleague, a boss, or even an intern can be anything.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. That reminds me of even a slide that I was showing yesterday and a talk that I was doing about imagination and empathy. I hear that a little bit of what you're saying, and although that doesn't always get you exactly to the right place, because you can't ever fully know what another person is wanting or experiencing, it oftentimes will move you closer. What would I want on my first day or first week? And then to be able to act out of that can really close what can sometimes seem like a big distance.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You both kind of offered some things in your answer, but I'll ask it explicitly as well. What are sometimes we're building connection at work feels difficult.   - Joshua Driver I've started to embrace more of when I am feeling extroverted versus introverted and sometimes when I'm hyper focused on something in the distraction of having to communicate or interact can be frustrating because I need the focused time and especially with new employees coming on. You want to be available and transparent and present. And at our stage right now it's really difficult to be present with everything that we need to get done. And so making sure that I'm not coming off as disinterested is something that I always in the back of my mind.   - Joshua Driver I want to make sure that I'm not conveying because it's not true. But there are some times where I just want to get something done and want to be sequestered for a little bit.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Do you have yourself in moments like that, like needing to actively engage in self talk, even about things. So I'll get my hand like I have to think about my body language and moments like that of being like, oh, I need to show attention and care right now. I'm going to do something different. Like do you do mental pivots like that? And what do they look like?   - Joshua Driver Sometimes Zach and I have been together for so long now. I can tell with his expression where I've crossed the line of of being rational more. So there are certain triggers, I think too. And he'll say, yeah, you need to maybe just spend some time by yourself for a minute and go for a lock so I will replay a situation like that in my mind and try to think through. Alright, what did I say? Did I mean to come off this way or if I don't really came off a different way than I meant to trying to understand?   - Joshua Driver Like how did this person infer that this was what I was trying to say. And so that has been helpful to rethink the experience so that I try not to replicate that. Moving forward. I.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I Imagine there's a line walk between replaying the experience and getting stuck in a never ending loop. How do you thread that needle?   - Joshua Driver Not. Well. I like to solve everything and have closure. So if there's still a difference of opinion, I like to try to really put the pressure on myself to get it resolved. And in some cases I think I don't look at difference of opinion is like who's going to win this fight and get their way? I think it's more from their background and their perspective. Is there some truth to it and allow that was Zach especially? There are some things that he's very passionate about and has a perspective that he really feels strongly.   - Joshua Driver And I'd like to think for the most part if he fully believes in something that I may not be so sure on and wants to go that I just trust him implicitly that it's the right thing and that he's very good at doing his research and looking at different aspects of things.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, and out of that foundation of relationship, you know what you can extend to them.   - Joshua Driver Yeah. I think we're a lot of co founders that are state right now. We don't have time to be working on every project together, be on every call together and make decisions together. And so I think if you have a co founder that you don't feel that you feel like you have to micromanage or be a part of every decision, then that's going to be a really difficult culture to scale. It's going to make your company really difficult to grow. And so everybody that we've hired and when Zach joined Selflessly is very clear.   - Joshua Driver I want the empowerment. I want to create the space for them to be empowered to make decisions that are best for a company and feel confident that they are able to execute on whatever task.   - Zach Rodenbarger Is this where I say the complete opposite?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes This is a safe space.   - Zach Rodenbarger I've been trying to obviously likewise empowering each other. And we did used to be on most of the calls and get to feel how each is thinking. And so it did help in the first month to six months to be on a lot of the calls together or as he mentioned, in the same room even. And so I can overhear his call, whether he wants me to or not and understand kind of what he's thinking, the action maybe he would take or his thinking on that his rationalization, right.   - Zach Rodenbarger What would he be thinking in the same spot and so helpful to be able to, you know, have his perspective in in the back of my mind and probably vice versa from sharing that office for the first twelve months and everything. So that's been really good.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I hear a lot of respect and self inquiry in what you both have said. And yet I imagine there's still moments where like on an emotional on a practical on an interpersonal level, you guys have missed and or hurt one another in your journey. What has making meaningful repairs looked like.   - Zach Rodenbarger Nerf guns. Yeah. I think for one of my birthday, Josh got a couple of Nerf guns for me, and so if we need, we can shoot each other, but also part of the startup mentality, right? We wanted to bring a little bit of fun into the office, but if you needed, you could shoot someone from across the room. That's been one way.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes At least I'm totally thinking of my two sons right now, and the moment where Magnus turns to Moses, and he's like, okay, you can just hit me five times in the chest. That's fine. Just don't tell mom.   - Joshua Driver The biggest issue with that is that I'm a bad shot, so I'm not even like to get I like you. I can't make my points in the same way he can, because I tend to miss him completely, whereas he's really good at targeting me. So that was, in hindsight, not a great decision for a birthday gift start.   - Joshua Driver She has to make a lot of lessons learned.   - Joshua Driver Yeah, I would recommend that to other companies unless you're really good at aiming   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes either that or you want to devote part of your work day to target practice.   - Joshua Driver Yes.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, maybe you guys would like to expand on the I hear like some fun, some levity, like not taking yourself too seriously. Are there other things that you do to make repairs when you guys have gotten a little bit off?   - Joshua Driver I think that we find out if if we're having a conflict, that taking the time, like taking some space and cooling down is helpful, but also eventually, once we've had time to kind of process that situation. General, I think there was a time where I went and got a Blizzard or a box of dilly bars and dropped them off at the house. His house is like a don't let go of me. Ever don't leave me gift. I'm sorry. I was cantankerous and vice versa where I think we have a cool down moment and then we Zoom out and think about it there's.   - Joshua Driver There's always an apology and then some type of affirmation about the other one.   - Zach Rodenbarger I know I take a little more time sometimes to each person has their kind of respective way to do that and to cool down. And some people want to solve it. Same day some people take the night, take the weekend and so, you know, kind of learning the team, learning the other person and thinking through that, you know, how to talk through that and when and maybe even is more important if it's right away or give some space.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Have you guys ever had misses? Because I hear a little bit. You know, Josh, you said I'm gonna solve it now. Person. And Zach, I need a little bit more time. Did you guys have a learning curve initially and full disclosure. I have had to unlearn in my adult relationships that tendency and belief of like, if I can just say it to you four different times in four different ways, we can figure it out right now. Let's keep trying. And sometimes people are like, no, just shut up.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Hard lesson.   - Joshua Driver I have had to learn that in general, my husband is similar. Where his cool down? He needs to think for a little bit and take a break. I think maybe in our early days I went back to like, don't walk away. Let's figure this out so we can move on. But then realizing that he needs a little bit more time and understanding to from his perspective, like, if he doesn't want to talk about it, it's not going to help for me trying to pull it out of them either.   - Joshua Driver So I've learned to kind of let that go that we're not going to necessarily resolve it today. But I do continue to like to think that I prioritize that moving forward so that we can eventually get through whatever that wall is that hurdle.   - Zach Rodenbarger I think my learning is definitely around witnessing people and then witnessing yourself. But it's very rare to convince someone of your perspective in an argument. And if you're both on one side, an argument is not going to convince the other person to jump on your side. And so where is that our email leading or can you take a step back and then provide the reason why you're thinking this way? The reason why that person is thinking that way. It's just interesting to see how arguments heat up and things, and there's no side switching.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes It's so true. Yeah. It makes me think of even a yet unresolved conversations argument that my husband and I are having and to be like, yeah, nobody ever switches sides in the middle like nobody is in the heat of it or very, very, very, very, very like the 1% does it happen and then usually with a fair degree of resentment.   - Joshua Driver So.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yes, that rings true.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I'm struck that you are like building culture internally, but it selflessly is also like the product itself is something that is hopefully building culture and connection in the workplace. Tell me a little bit about how selflessly and volunteering and thinking outside of yourself is good for people in for workplaces.   - Joshua Driver But I think as we see culture being a normal discussion and given that we're still in a pandemic and becomes such a volatile polarizing environment in the world everywhere.   - Joshua Driver I always try to find, like silver linings or ways to maybe take take a moment to step away from the reality. And for me, my coping mechanism is to help others. And the reason why I've been able to spend that time to help others is because I've been very privileged and had the ability to do that where I understand that's not everybody's story coming out at our platform in understanding from not every company is a Lily or a Salesforce that has massive teams that work on these big the initiatives and have the resources.   - Joshua Driver There are a lot of companies I mean humans are humans, whether you work at a Fortune 50 company or a small startup.   - Joshua Driver And so it's always been confusing to me why startups don't think about their culture from day one. And because we spend so much of our wake time at work, especially on our stage and the positive vibes or feelings you get out of helping others or contributing to the betterment of your community or society or making a difference for somebody else is such an important experience.   - Joshua Driver I think everybody should have, but unfortunately, we work all the time or we have kids or other responsibilities that limit that time. So we set out to build selflessly so that companies didn't have to try to scrape the bottom the barrel to be able to provide purpose or the positive opportunities or the community engagement. We wanted to be a partner, so every company can experience the positive effects of being a crime brand or socially responsible organization, and that for a long time has only been afforded to gigantic organizations.   - Joshua Driver And so we wanted to be be the platform everyone can use. And so we have to be obviously an innovative with the pandemic and all these things that have changed the logistics on the nonprofit side. And unfortunately, a lot of this responsibility falls on nonprofits who are trying to keep their doors open and working on their mission. And so we took on the responsibility of of taking that work off of nonprofits and working on educating companies on how they can integrate philanthropy into normal business practices like employee engagement or team building or culture or heck, even the competitiveness of the sales Department.   - Joshua Driver How do we leverage a philanthropic component while a bunch of type as I go tell each other or something? And I think if there's always even a component of that philanthropic, if there's just even a small piece that goes back or gives back, I think that that's a really great thing to hard wire into a company's culture.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Zach, anything you want to add?   - Zach Rodenbarger Yeah, I think obviously what Josh said, one of my kind of tag lines, even as we reach out to teams and think about them is kind of selfless. Teams make the best teams. And when you're have employees that are thinking about each other and how to help each other and not always just focused on their task, that's obviously going to make a better team and environment and better teamwork. And so by thinking through, how do we make selfless employees that's really part of selflessly is to help those employees encourage those employees, not Joe's employees to find a volunteer opportunity or find a way to give back to support a cause they care about to have those matching donations from the company and actually use those.   - Zach Rodenbarger And so all of these nudges that we want to help create selfless employees that are thinking about others and not just themselves. And so when you think about others that leads to that teamwork, really, everyone creating a better environment. And so putting all that together with what Josh said is exciting, that this is something we get to work on each day.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. Well, my brain can't help but go to some sociological context. You know, I think in generations before, what you are tapping into is this, like human desire to be a part of something bigger, to be giving back, and that there was a while in the US where that was filled by a Church that was asking for a time, and hopefully they were giving towards meaningful things in that way. But that has become less and less central in American communities. There's still this impulse, but not quite the same.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You know, there were good and bad things about that prior model, but there's not that same sort of, like regular outlet. And we're also more connected in theory, to the needs of the world. But through the lens of social media, which doesn't often lead to direct action. So, like emotional sensing, selves are out there like feeling all these things. But there's not this bridging, it towards action that feels like it builds up like a physical, real community that we're regularly a part of. And that selflessly kind of helps to bridge some of those, like sociological shifts with a meaningful offering.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah.   - Joshua Driver I think without sounding like a sound bite, I feel philanthropy in the connection between a donor and a nonprofit or a company in its community or wherever this for profit and nonprofit connection is. For decades, we've given money to our Church, to the United Way, these intermediaries to trust that that's been utilized in the best way or is going towards the mission. And I think with technology improving and transparency, we've seen over time organizations that may not have made the best choices with the money that have come in and the the biggest concern is that this person had maybe a bad experience with this organization.   - Joshua Driver Are they going to find another one to support, or are they just going to stop supporting? And that's a big concern. And so now there's this big push for having more control over where people can donate and not necessarily have to be relegated to the confines of somebody's of an organization, agencies or whatever. But what that means is more transparency needs to be done on the nonprofit side. And the nonprofits don't have the resources necessarily to be able to give up regular updates about a campaign or whatever.   - Joshua Driver And so we've set up nonprofits to kind of fail from that regard. And then Conversely, I think we nonprofits. They're always fundraising. I've started my own nonprofit. We're always trying to raise more money so we can continue with our mission. And that leaves people out that may not have the liquidity or the resources to be able to participate financially, and we have to jump in. Or at least we take on some of the responsibility of how do we jump in and equate somebody skills and volunteer time to be worth just as much, if not more than them writing a check.   - Joshua Driver And so I think it's a generational shift about what philanthropy is starting to look like when we launch selflessly as we continue to grow selflessly. There's always people from the charitable sector that have their own perspective. You need to trust. This organization has been around for a century that they're just going to be doing the right thing. But we tend to grow because people want to break out of what the mold of philanthropy has been and want to have more control and be able to make more direct impact by us connecting those two sides and really always innovating on how to keep those two sides connected.   - Joshua Driver That means more resources go to the charitable sector. It just looks a little different. It's not an entry on a bank account. It might look like a donated product or a brainstorming session or some skilled services, but it can be helpful to breaking up some of the foundational infrastructure is a good thing, and I think we're along over you to really start shaking the tree and and changing what is no longer working. And that's a hard thing for people that have been in this space for a long time to necessarily want to accept.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, something that I heard both of you say as a mark of differentiation that you have cultivated and enjoy is a sense of whimsy, and maybe not taking ourselves too seriously. Tell me how that shows up in selflessly.   - Joshua Driver Well, my office looks like a kid play room. I just have random stuff all over the place, and then we have a Bulldog in the office. But I think the way that we talk to people, the way that we put ourselves out there, we didn't win the virtual background thing when you made those for your background as your company logo and all the strategic stuff. We didn't do that. I put on a background of me standing at the podium on Jeopardy or just keeping it. I'm sure people for first impression at times like, who the hell is this guy?   - Joshua Driver But I think that if we were always trying to display, everything is running great. We don't have any problems. We're constantly growing and just a few months away from being the Jeff Bezos to this is really nobody believes that. First of all, instead of constantly say everything is working. There isn't one company that everything's running smoothly, but I think we personality, my personality. We would probably suppress a lot of who we are individually if we always had to worry about being a highlight reel and being being always on and calculated and putting on this this front.   - Joshua Driver And I think having more real conversations, joking around, making mistakes, owning them and moving on or being open about what we've messed up for, mistakes we've made, I think, is so much more valuable in creating a deeper connection with our staff, which our network, our investors and being open and also accepting of the feedback too.   Joshua Driver We don't want to be a vendor or a tech provider. We want to be a partner. And I think that us being vulnerable and embracing that were not perfect, I think, is important to set that expectation for whom we're interacting with.   - Zach Rodenbarger Absolutely. You want to be able to have fun with your team. You want your team to be able to have fun with customers and on those conversations. And you want people to look forward to having time together, whether it's on a Zoom call or in person, especially for your internal team. But then that customers start to feel that as well and enjoy the conversations with you. And maybe in the software, you start to see certain aspects and certain animations come across the screen or something like that.   - Zach Rodenbarger You're starting to see a little bit of other software as well, but we want to be have that enjoyment, especially if we're looking at company culture and encouraging people to get out and have some enjoyment and purpose and things like that. We want to come through in our mission and our software and allow really customers internal external everyone to start to see that, feel that and really enjoy the software and enjoy working with selflessly and working for selflessly.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes If listeners are intrigued about the platform, the mission, you guys in your story, where can they go to find out more about selflessly and how it can be used to build and increase the sense of connection at work?   - Joshua Driver Yeah.   - Joshua Driver Our website is Selflessly. I and our social media Tags or give selflessly on the Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and our email address the general email for Zach, it is Hello at Selflessly IO.   - Joshua Driver And.   - Joshua Driver We get all kinds of requests companies that want to become B Corps or our favorite messages or hey, I want to. We're a small company and we don't think that we can really make an impact. Can you show us how to do it like those are the things we really enjoy spending time with. Also, I think hearing from people that may want to start their own company or want to brainstorm. Sometimes we make time to have a coffee with a potential entrepreneur or give some feedback, help others where we can.   - Joshua Driver We'd love to hear from anybody who wants to reach out.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways to build connection and care in the workplace…   Fun matters.From Nerf guns to dilly bar deliveries, introducing a little bit of levity, especially in tense and freighted situations, can be a game changer.  Where can you build some fun and some laughter into your office life? There is power in taking a break and thinking the best of the other person.You heard these two threads throughout the interview:  in offering a break or a walk to the other person, hoping and trusting that their moment of overwhelm is not their truest or best self.  This attention to the emotional temperature of a given situation is so important.  And I use it often in both my personal and professional interactions.  One way that people can move through their own disruption and overwhelm is by giving back to others.The act of moving beyond the constraints of your own situation, doing something positive for someone else, has all sorts of positive effects on the health of individuals and organizations.  If what you have heard today piques your interest, I encourage you to look up the good work that is going on at Sefless.ly.  More information about Zach, Josh, and the company can be found in the show notes.    OUTRO   To find out more about the work of Selfless.ly, visit https://selflessly.io

– Adam Weber One of the I think keys to genuine empathy is through consistent one on one and how you display empathy, like, structurally inside of an organization. So, for example, a one on one is that place where as a manager, you can create safety with your team and with your direct reports and create a vulnerable relationship where you really do know what's going on inside of their world in their life   INTRO Sometimes, when you hear from leaders, you are inundated with their success stories:  their key tips to making your life or company just as successful as theirs has been.  And the whole thing can kind of seem a little unattainable and aspirational.   Which is one of the things that I love about today's interview with Adam Weber, the Senior Vice President for 15Five.  Adam is one of those highfliers whose work is marked by successes, whether that is leading HR professionals in HR Superstars or successfully growing and then selling Emplify as a co-founder.    But my conversation with Adam isn't just a series of success stories.  He is going to tell you about moments where he was NOT his best self, where as a young founder under tons of stress, he created distance instead of connection…and what he learned from it.  Along with a lot of other great content.   Adam is a structure guy, so be ready for some really actionable suggestions.  Adam is also the author of “Lead Like a Human”. Great title!  He has a wife, two sons, and a dog named Poppy and he loves spending time in nature, camping, and bird-watching.  I hope you enjoy today's conversation as much as I did.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Adam, I'm so glad to have you as a guest today. Welcome.   - Adam Weber It's good to be here. Liesel. Thank you so much.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yes. So a question that I oftentimes get in my work is defining what empathy looks like in the workplace. And I know that you're someone who has worked a lot professionally and written and thought about connection in the workplace. How would you define empathy at work? What does it look like?   - Adam Weber I think it work. Empathy at work, I think, is seeing your employees as whole people as their whole sales and just in recognizing that they have things that are moving in their life that are outside of work, they have aspects of things that work that are impacting them that maybe you're unaware of. And so just taking that holistic perspective of each person and the unique experience that they're having and translating that and how you relate to them.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Thank you for that. I have found as I work with different companies as I meet with individuals that oftentimes when people like get it, when they feel really resonant with the importance of empathy and connection in the workplace, it comes out of a place of personal experience. They've had some touch points with either needing empathy and care or being in the position of giving it in a way that was really impactful. I'd love for you to share a story of when you've either really needed care in the workplace or when it's been really important for you to give it.   - Adam Weber Yeah. I think I have two stories that come to mind. The first is maybe how early in my career I was able to practice empathy in a way that helped me see the value in it. I started in my career when I was 22 to 25. I was the pastor of a Church, and it's a story for a different day, but basically became the head pastor when I was 25, never given a sermon in my life. Wow. And was trying to support and was really the only staff person for two to 300 people and was trying to support them when in reality, like, I was just still really young myself.   - Adam Weber And I think through that experience, a lot of people opened up to me about their lives. And you got to be a part of some of those high moments, like weddings, but also you're very much in the midst of really, really difficult situations. And so during that season, I think I learned a lot about just the value of sitting with people through hard things. It was during that time that one of my very best friends had ALS and he passed away and over an 18 month period.   - Adam Weber But, you know, every Tuesday and Thursday, we sat together that entire time and have lunch together. And I think just being with him and watching him go through that experience was something that really built empathy with me. So that's may be on just like, the personal side of, like, really early. I got a little bit thrown into the fire of empathy and being just being with others.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. And I know that you have a second story, but I love it. Could I just interrupt you for a second? Because I'm struck with the dynamics of that story, something that I find myself facilitating a lot around is compassion, fatigue and talking. Or even Adam Grant use the term languishing recently. That sense of like, I don't know if I can give to anybody else because I feel so drained myself. You're young. You are responsible for the sole care of all of these people. I'm sure you have things going on in your own life.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You have this personal friend, so you're watching an emotional journey of watching him die. How were you finding equilibrium and places to be filled up for yourself so you could keep giving to others in a way that mattered?   - Adam Weber That is a great question. I think what's interesting about being 25 is at that time. I don't think I did it with a lot of intention. I think when I reflect back on that time, there was a lot of kind of giving on empty without making sure that I was in a place of health myself. And one of the things maybe later in my career, I have realized the value for myself is making sure that I'm giving. One of the things I've noticed for me is that I need solitude.   - Adam Weber I'm a person who naturally is drawn to other people and wants to be a part of their lives. And if I don't give myself space to restore and space to make sure I'm my whole complete self, I end up kind of crossing, twisting the wires of giving in a way that is healthy for myself. I wonder sometimes when I look back on that season, there's a natural part to that where I was just kind of being myself an inflow and giving in a way that's comfortable.   - Adam Weber And I think there's probably another part of it that was just a little needy that really was really empty and didn't have great pathways to and to kind of restore myself, too. Which is probably why at the end of that year transitioned away from it. You know, I don't think I was acting in a way the problem is sustainable in my own life. Actually.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Thank you for that vulnerability. And even as I look back in to what my body and my person seemingly had the capacity to just absorb and keep churning. In my twenties, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was a lot that probably wasn't healthy, but there's a certain hubris to that stage of life where you think I can just keep going.   - Adam Weber Yeah, there's an infinite amount of energy and there's an altruism that's really beautiful, I think with, like, a willingness to, like, I can change the world, you know? And there is some truth to that. I think there's also some wisdom that maybe came a little later for me, too.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I interrupted your flow, though. You were telling the first personal story. I'd love to hear that second story that you had in your back pocket as well.   - Adam Weber Well, the second one, really, like, set in motion. I had a windy career for the first ten years, kind of going from pastor to academic advisor, entry level job, entry level job, entry level sales job. And then I kind of stumbled into doing a start up about a decade ago and starting it with my business partner, Santiago, who was a week out of College at the time. So I'm ten years into my career. I've got two kids and we start this start up. I have no experience at all.   - Adam Weber And immediately just the company just started to grow. And I went from kind of being a one person employee to having a team. And in the very beginning of that process, I felt so overwhelmed and I felt so stressed that I started to follow some of the negative patterns that I saw and managers that led me prior. And remember, there's a couple of specific moments, but where I just was not being myself and I was creating barriers between my employees, the people I was interviewing, I just wasn't leading in a way that was sustainable for me.   - Adam Weber I was trying to act in a way that I thought managers and leaders were supposed to act. And I think during that time, I just hit a bit of a breaking point, like, because of how hard startups are in general, I was like, I'm not going to be able to sustain this if I try to do it. Like, I think everybody else is supposed to lead.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And what was that looking like? I just love for you to flesh that out a little bit more. You were like, this is the way it should be done.   - Adam Weber And it looks like what I think it looked a little bit like the authoritarian, the kind of Industrial Revolution leader. The leading is a disconnected self where, like, I was one way at home. But then I'd show up to work. And just like, I wasn't that there would be, like, curtains or anger or there would be kind of, like, spouting off orders as opposed to, like, truly listening and collaborating like things like that. Or it would just be like, when you're interviewing someone instead of, like, coming up with your own way that you interview people that I was following, a guide, that when I would do it.   - Adam Weber I was like, this just doesn't feel like me.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. You're moving into uncharted territories. And I find that in my life and in those I work with, it's easy to work off of a template instead of doing some of the work that it sounds like you are beginning to engage in. Like, is this representative of me and my best energy?   - Adam Weber That's exactly right. I think the template phrase is a good summary of what that season felt like for me.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So what was the inflection point for you? I imagine you are not still operating out of that place of discontent.   - Adam Weber You know, the inflection point. I was actually in the middle of an interview with someone who I still work with to this day. She's someone who I feel like I've had a really great relationship with and invested a lot into her life. But in the middle of her interview process, I was following a template, and I looked at her resume, and she took a gap year, which is super cool, by the way. Took a year to Europe right after College, and I followed this guide where you're supposed to do high pressure interviews and super awkward pause about her gap interview.   - Adam Weber And it was really uncomfortable in the moment. I was like, Gosh, I just was like, I can't do this for this is not me. But then simultaneously, I actually damaged our relationship, even though we had never met at the time. And it took us a year, truly a year to get to the spot where she really trusted me and where she felt like she actually knew who I was because this initial impression was not actually the person that I was. And so I think that interview was really that moment was really a turning point for me.   - Adam Weber That kind of set my entire trajectory and career around focusing on leaders, focusing on what good leadership looks like that I really think that moment and, you know, just full to take that story full circle. By the way, when we sold our business in April and she sent me a text, the same person sent me a text and said, There is not a person other than my mother who's impacted my life more than you and which I saved. And that was a hall of Fame. Probably one of the most powerful messages I've ever received, especially in the workplace.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah.   - Adam Weber I think the reason it was so meaningful to is because of how much that moment was transformative in my leadership.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. Well, and I'm struck there's a certain level of intuition and engagement that is necessary to know that there has been damage done to a relationship, to be able to look back and be like, it took us a year. How are you seeing that disconnect expressed? And I'd love to delve into it specifically, because especially as leaders, there are, we don't know, necessarily when the impactful moment will be, which is really like an encouragement to be showing up as our healthiest best cells less. We do damage.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But over the course of that year, were you realizing in real time, like, oh, there's kind of something in between us.   - Adam Weber Yeah. I think it's one thing. It's something sometimes you can sense, but you don't know because we don't really know each other. And this was one facet of who she was attaching a lot of significance to a situation that was not my best version of myself either.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right.   - Adam Weber I think it was, you know, throughout the year as I started to really improve, like, one of the I think keys to genuine empathy is through consistent one on one and how you display empathy, like, structurally inside of an organization. So, for example, a one on one is that place where as a manager, you can create safety with your team and with your direct reports and create a vulnerable relationship where you really do know what's going on inside of their world in their life, like how they're doing.   - Adam Weber And just in those moments, I think that it was kind of in those one on one. As I started to improve how I built relationships with people in the workplace and how I uncovered how they were doing and how I could help that just could sense kind of consistent, like, just like walls, walls. I think that were put up that we had to work through. And then I think also that her experience was different as other people started to come there like, that doesn't feel like a person doesn't feel like Adam.   - Adam Weber That's not the Adam I know. And so I just think with time now, I mean, what's so cool about that is now we've worked together for eight and a half years. Right. So we're in a really different spot. But obviously we were then, which is really cool and pretty rare, by the way, to hire someone when they're right out of College. I got to work with them for that long. I think that's a pretty neat thing   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes To get to be able to see their growth trajectory. Well, I like something that you alluded to, which is the things that we can do structurally to build connection. And I know that that has actually been, like a big part of just the product and your professional movement in the world. So I'd love for you to tell me more about some of the best practices that you've seen. And you work with Amplify. And now with 15 five in what companies can be doing to think structurally about.   - Adam Weber There's a handful of things that come to mind because I also think sometimes topics like this can feel overwhelming, but if you get really practical, you can start to see where these different containers are inside your organization to create trusted, empathetic relationships at the manager level, I think is really like where this is the most powerful because that's where the relationships are the most personal. And so if I think about a new manager, maybe think about my own story. Often times they were a top performing individual contributor.   - Adam Weber They got promoted, they never got any training. They have super high goals. They're feeling overstressed. And then what they do innately is they start to carry and transition that stress over to their team. And they create kind of environments of chaos and confusion as opposed to clarity and team alignment. So one example of that was good.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I just want to recognize that's so accurate to the pain points that I observe again and again. Please continue. But what was well stated.   - Adam Weber This is my world, though. These observations are pretty much what I spent all my time observing and helping companies with. And so I think for that manager, like, there's two really key containers for them. I think where they can show empathy. The first is what typically happens is on that manager is just kind of follow that path I just shared as they show up on Monday. They bring all the stress that is above them straight into that meeting on Monday morning. And it's like you can feel it in the atmosphere.   - Adam Weber They bring in the stress, they bring in their own issues. They bring in whatever those things. And it really changes how it feels inside of just at that team level. And that type of environment really, like put walls up for people being like themselves. And so just a small switch, which is at the start of every week before we get to the stressors and the goals. And that all of those things before we do those things. What we first do is we just hear about what happened over the weekend just to create the rhythm and the habit to understand the phrase I use is there's always a story behind everyone's story.   - Adam Weber And it's like, how do we make sure that we are just keeping those dialogues open to hear what's going on inside of your world, inside of your life, inside of what's happening outside of work. So that's one and that's in a group setting, and then the way you transition that forward, then it's end of that one on one setting as well. I mean, just a really small change to a one on one for a manager of just never starting the one on one, really checking your own energy and checking your own priorities at the door and showing up and being willing to listen first, be curious first and invest in their lives first.   - Adam Weber And then it just unlocks so much as far as being able to understand their world, being able to support them and actually helping you achieve your own goals for your team, that sort of thing. So those are two at the manager level.   - Adam Weber I think at the company level, how you can display empathy. One that I'm passionate about is we measure amplify measure engagement for companies. And while that is a neat thing, what's powerful about measuring is when the CEO says the thing out loud, that's hard about the company that everyone else knows. They just don't know that the leadership knows when a CEO says, you know what? Everyone thank you so much for your candid feedback. It is clear that our goals are currently not attainable, and it's really impacting how you're feeling and showing up at work today or how you're showing up at work in this season.   - Adam Weber There is power in that at the company level, when you can show empathy at the macro scale, to the experience of the company.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes The acknowledgement of the pain point. I'm thinking, like burr under the saddle, sort of a reality.   - Adam Weber Yeah, because it just it diffuses the tension. It's not even that we have it solved. It's just that we all understand that this is real, that we're all working through now. We're not a perfect organization. We're making progress. But I am aware of the same thing that you are aware of. And I think that that built a lot of trust and empathy as well. And then there's policies from an HR perspective, there's small things. One of the things I thought was so profound that 15 five are really it's huge for people going through it.   - Adam Weber It's small in the realm of the impact to the benefits, bottom line or something. But our 15 five has a child bereavement policy like something that small. That when you come into the organization and it's it just shows a level of care and compassion for the whole person, for their world and for their experience or during COVID. We had family members who passed away. And so how as a company, not just as the manager, but how as a company, do we sit with and support people who are going through really, really challenging times?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. I have found in the conversations that I'm having policies never seem top of mind until they're suddenly top of mind. I'm like, oh, that's our policy. And whether that's our berievement leave policy says you have to have proof of death or it's only for immediate family members. We give people three days, and that doesn't take into account COVID related travel or all the sorts of things. And to pay attention to those things, it does feel impacted because especially as people are having so many more moments to touch on that.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I was just seeing someone's LinkedIn post about needing to bring, like, a bulletin from extended family members funeral to prove that they weren't just lying for time off and just how cheap that made it feel. But it was the policy, and nobody looked at the policy for a decade.   - Adam Weber Yeah. And there's I don't even know what to say about.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, so sad about it.   - Adam Weber I'm picturing that's just the Seinfield episode. I know George Castanza's trying to get his flight covered in your right. This is how it's supposed to be.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, you just think policy, the eternalist. Like how like your fourth grade teacher being like, did you really go to use the bathroom with your hall pass or you just cutting class? Yeah.   - Adam Weber There is just I think underneath that there is such a lack of trust, right? There is like, we don't trust you, even with really hard aspects of your life like you're not trusted, I think, is at least the underlying message that an employee would receive through.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, like a meta level. If you're conveying yourself as a leadership team and a company that can't exercise trust, there's probably some trickle down questions that need to come up. What does that say about how we hire people? Or what does that say about how we manage people in an ongoing basis that we continue to have the perception of people that we can't trust? There's probably questions about other areas of your people operations if that really feels true or change your possible.   - Adam Weber And I also think every employee asks themselves, Is this company worth my best?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah.   - Adam Weber They have a level they're willing to give. And I think a small things like having to get a funeral bulletin. I think our create marks for people to go. This isn't worth my best. I might give time, but it's not going to be my best, right. And I'm not sure that I blame them. I don't I I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Are you giving your people what they need to stay engaged in the midst of all of the disruptive life events that are coming at them?  I deeply resonated with how Adam described the managerial journey:  the stress that comes from suddenly having to manage and inspire and care for people.  It is just hard, especially right now.  And I hear, again and again from companies, that they want to be able to support the mental wellness of their people but they just don't know how.  Handle with Care Consulting can help.  Empathy is a skill that can be learned and we can train you.  We have targeted keyontes, tailored to your pain points and industry, Empathy at Work Certificate programs, and coaching options.  Empathy doesn't have to be difficult, reach out for a free consultation.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What is a time or a contributing factor that really it felt difficult to build connection with a given person or a team in your working career.   - Adam Weber I think for me just myself, I think where I run into issues is when I get overstressed in general. And then I think I start to project at times on to other people, or I try to take that stress that I'm feeling and I push it to others, which is not a very empathetic posture. And so I think that has always been the thing I've had to be mindful of it. And startups, you really do have to be a venture backed funded startups are not for the faint of heart.   - Adam Weber They are very stressful environments where you're growing quickly. So the business is changing every twelve to 16 weeks. It's like a whole different place, and there's a lot of pressure. And so I think finding balance in the midst of pressure in the midst of feeling overstressed. Like, I think those are the times for me, as opposed to like an individual, like one individual or things like that. It's when I get a little bit too inward focused to be thoughtful of other people.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, for some reason, what connects is even on a personal level. As a parent, I know when I am feeling like meta stress, whether that's work related or going back and forth with the roofing guys who are doing the hail damage and those sorts of things really can pull from my ability to be present, fostering joy, contributing to a shared sense of a espirit de corps  with my children that feels very resonant on a personal level, as you were talking about that, especially in a startup culture. What did that look like for you?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And maybe there's like a day or a season that comes to mind, but whether it's coming out of a tough meeting about metrics or thinking about the steps towards Series A, what would that look like with your team when you were feeling preoccupied like that, how would you begin to interact with them?   - Adam Weber Yeah, these aren't like my finest moments, but I think there were some memories or some thoughts I have that I go back to early where we're trying to take a thing that's nothing and turn it into something. And I was working as hard as I possibly could and overworking. I think during that season and sometimes during like, end of week metrics or views, it would be painful for me just to hear other people's metrics and feel like maybe they weren't working as hard as I was now with some perspective.   - Adam Weber I'm like they also weren't owners in the business. I think I got to understand now, but at the time that was really painful for me and I had a really hard time just sitting and understanding. And I think when you lead with frustration, it makes it really challenging to understand what their actual blockers are. Then you're not really collaborating with them on the solution. You've just decided that you're frustrated at that in the interview story. Actually, those two scenarios were pretty much the foundation of what caused that kind of leadership change in my own life.   - Adam Weber In that first year of the startup, there was a moment where I like walking out where people are sharing metrics, and I just left the meeting and I think that was another one where with some time I was like, alright, I need to really think about what it means to be a leader and how I sit with people and invest in people and even the other side of that. How do I set clear expectations or agreements where we're both mutually aligned? So I'm not just disappointed, but we have a shared clarity on what we're working towards.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right in just my last interview was with Max Yoder and he was talking about expectations versus agreements. And I thought, oh, yeah. That's so true. If it's just my expectation, then I either need to be able to release it because I didn't make it known to you, or we need to transition to an agreement where we're both on the same page. And I thought that that repeats itself in personal lives and work live hear that?   - Adam Weber Yes. Exactly. Sounds like he nailed it, by the way. So I will just to build on that concept. This is why I think things like role clarity, things like clearly define goals, what those really give to our genuine agreements, not just expectations between employees and managers. And I actually think as tactical as those sound, that those create more empathetic workforces because it creates clarity inside the organization. It creates clarity of what is expected of me. So that's one part of what it does. So then we're all now collaborating on the same things instead of just like a manager who is constantly disappointed, constantly frustrated, who then puts up walls and isn't willing to collaborate, sit with the person, help them grow.   - Adam Weber And the other thing it does is that when something challenging happens in that person's life, if there's role clarity and there's clear goals, there's ways for people to know how to step up.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So you are in a high pressure environment in startup culture where I imagine that I don't know, maybe even more regularly than quarterly. You were having to pivot and move, and maybe like, finesse where we're going and what we're doing.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes How did you find that you were able to maintain that sense of clarity in the midst of an ecosystem that was kind of changing around you pretty rapidly? Or maybe I'm not describing that ecosystem correctly.   - Adam Weber I think you're describing it correctly. I think it depends on what season of the journey. So in the beginning, I think I did a relatively poor job of that. I think first time entrepreneurs, it's like the new idea always feels like the most important idea. And with time. And so there was rapid pivoting. But I'm not sure that it was always wise. And then with time, I think what we did was we really, really buttoned up, how we align as a company, on what's the most important thing and then but then also understand that things change and adjust and have good ways to what we call it triage, triage adjustments and pivot, as opposed to doing them kind of like the day, radically or inconsistently.   - Adam Weber And I think that creates stability for the employees, too. When you kind of peel back the curtain on here's how we build strategy here's how we pivot strategy, so that for them, it doesn't just feel like constant whiplash within that triage.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You describe so many points of learning in your journey as a leader. A couple of years ago, you took the time to put this all down in book form and lead like a Human, which is a book that I have and have really enjoyed as a tool of insight and a reference point even in the work that I do, I'm wondering. It's it's your own, like baby bringing forth into the world now that it's had a couple of years to toddle around out there, what is the impact that you've seen?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And is there any part of the book that you just feel like is especially important right now?   - Adam Weber Yeah. I think one of the things that I really appreciated about writing the book, obviously, I shared a lot about my early part of management, but I think once I turn the corner and really gave the time to figure out, like, it's hard work, I think to figure out how to become a leader that other people want to work for. It unlocked my own life. It unlocked the performance of my team. It unlocked a lot of their personal lives. And so it's a journey that's been really meaningful to me.   - Adam Weber But I will say, when you do start ups, there's an interesting part of it, but the whole time, it feels really temporary. You kind of know it's going to end. And so I think one of the things with the book that I'm really thankful for is that it's a little bit more permanent. It was spot on time when I wrote it, but it lasts. And so it's a nice juxtaposition, I think with a start up and similar to I was a songwriter early kind of when I was right out of College and a lot of the songs I wrote I find really challenging today.   - Adam Weber Like, I think about some of the things I was writing about.   - Adam Weber I go, wow, it's interesting, like a spot in time, but it's got this permanence to it, and the book is like that I think for me and that there are aspects of it. I write. I go, wow, this is really challenging for me like that to actually live some of this stuff out myself, too, in a new season. The one the one that I think is the chapter that's been the most valuable for me is called centeredness.   - Adam Weber And the reason why it actually goes all the way back to the very beginning of our conversation today is that I didn't have the tools early in my career to find my own grounding and to find my own wholeness and recognize that when I am in that place, then I can put all these other practices in place that allow me to lead in a more human way. And so it's without being too prescriptive because I really didn't want it to feel prescriptive. I want it to be each person's individual journey, but I do think there's an aspect of it that is just have I thoughtfully looked at my own life and what things are working in my life and what things are restorative to me and allow me to connect to, like my whole connect itself so that I can show up in a steady, consistent way in the workplace.   - Adam Weber That's probably the one over time. I think that I think the most I reflect back on the most.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. And what guidance would you offer? Reflection is definitely the first step, but for individuals who are starting to take account and go, oh, that's not congruent or Gee, that's really crappy and painful. That's got to be different for me to be able to stay in this for the long term.   - Adam Weber Yeah. I think there's some version for everyone of self reflection, like how do I take the time to analyze or think about how I'm showing up in the world and with my team? And I think that is both done. Personally, I do this myself. One of the things I do is I just actually Journal and cursive, and I just write what the feeling people still use cursive.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes The elementary school teachers would be so proud.   - Adam Weber I might be the last one, but it's not active for me, I think, because it forces me to go slow. That's what I like about it, which is probably why it doesn't exist anymore, but really just try to write my emotions, right what I'm feeling and how I'm showing up. So one is like doing the self reflection yourself the other, especially if you're a leader, is just like to make sure you have someone outside of your scenario, but who knows you well enough? Who can tell you the truth of how you're showing up?   - Adam Weber I think that part is really important because most leaders just get lied to constantly and they don't know it because of role power. And it's really important to have people that you trust, who will tell you the truth about who you are and how you're showing up so that you can make progress and work on it. And then I think for me, the gratitude practices that have worked for me in my life like I do these gratitude walks. It's because I have a busy mind, and when I walk, it's just a little easier to stay focused and things like that.   - Adam Weber But I don't want to prescribe the actual activity. I think it's for you. What are those activities? What are the things? Is that exercise? Is that hiking? Is it once a week or once a month, you block out a day where you don't work, but you just take time to do something restorative for you.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That's good. I especially like the part about leaders being lied to and not knowing it. I think that is that's descriptively true for so many people.   - Adam Weber I also think that's why I have a lot of empathy for CEOs and why I just have a heart for the CEO experience in the journey because I think it's really lonely for a CEO because I think one most of the time, everything you say people respond as if it's awesome and people are lying to you a lot, and they're not being because you hold their job in their hands and their family, security and all of these things. And if you show up every single day without having these, like, I think I have empathy for how lonely and isolating that feels for people.   - Adam Weber And a lot of times they're unaware that that's happening to them, right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Building empathy and connection always has its challenges. There's this added layer right now of the particular challenges of the pandemic of social issues that feel really divisive of a continued uncertainty about how we're structuring workplace policies, not knowing what's going to happen with our kids in schooling and all of these challenges. What have you found really is helpful in continuing to move the needle on connection and care in the workplace, specifically within COVID-19.   - Adam Weber I think one aspect is that just to take a little the pressure off yourself of trying to solve it. This is a big thing that's happening in the world, and it's happening to all of us. And so there's no perfect answer. There's no perfect policy, there's nothing perfect. You can say there's no burnout vacation thing that's going to immediately make things better. So maybe just like, releasing yourself with the pressure that this is, like, yours to fix in isolation. But the most impactful thing I think leaders can do right now is just have conversations and just be in on the conversations.   - Adam Weber Burnout is a really good example, because it is like we're on, like, Wave five of burnout. I didn't even know what level of burnout it is, and it's impacting all of us in ways that we don't even know how to articulate ourselves to. There's this part of me, like, even with the Great Resignation to, like, not take it so personally to allow people just to be where they are. And some people now, there's a part right before the acquisition where some of our very first employees left, people are very, very close to.   - Adam Weber And there's a part of that where you just have to recognize that, like, when you go through something that's significant in the world, sometimes you just need change. You just need change. It's not personal. It's not about the leader. It's not about the business. It's like, hey, there's a lot going on, and I just need something different.   - Adam Weber I wish I could give you a perfect answer. I just think this is such a hard. I think it's such a hard topic because I just don't think any of us are immune to this. And I just think it's like, when you're in the middle of a story, you don't really know the answer to it. You just need to just kind of be in it and acknowledge that you're in it and maybe give space for your employees to also be like, it's okay that they're in it too.   - Adam Weber I think I feel like the thing that isn't going to work, like, even with the great resignation, for example, is I think if you can be charitable with people as their departing, I just hate to feel really at the whole tenor around people leaving is so negative, and I find it exhausting. I don't understand why someone can't show up to a company, give their best hit a place where they go. My time here is like I'm ready to grow somewhere else and be celebrated. And it just to be like we honor that season for what it was and the impact it had on the business.   - Adam Weber The business is about the business and the purpose of that business, not the individual who is running the business. So I celebrate that impact. And then and I think that that is a healthier way to process this, as opposed to making it taboo or sweeping it under the rug or acting like no one's leaving. People are leaving. People are leaving every company. You're not the only company where people are leaving. It's happening everywhere because people are looking for change. But if we normalize it and we celebrate people, it just feels like that is just like, a more appropriate way to handle honoring the time people gave instead of making every time someone leaves, it feel like a failure.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I like that. I think that's a good word. Adam, are there any other questions that you wish I would have asked you or insights that you have to offer?   - Adam Weber I just I was like looking at my notes that I had earlier, and one of the most powerful things I feel like I did as a leader was when I knew that we had, like, a deep issue of conflict. I guess one of the things with empathy to me is that this component that happens inside of organizations, which is this conflict, and it's a natural thing that comes up when people are working hard towards a goal and maybe don't proactively solve an issue. But at some point, like conflict manifests itself.   - Adam Weber And to me, one of the roles of someone who's, like an empathetic leader, is sitting in the midst of that conflict and being willing to truly listen and making sure that in that listening, that people feel heard and some of the most some of the work I looked back on over the last ten years of running a business I'm the most proud of was were the hardest conflicts where there were teams that were highly disengaged, and I Dove into the middle of it, and I sat with a full team and I said, what is going on?   - Adam Weber Let's just talk. This is a safe space and just listened 90 minutes, just sat there and listened and wrote it all down and then summarized it and share it back with them. And I was just like before anything else happens first, like, do you feel hurt? Do you feel like this is what is happening for your experience?   And then once they're heard one that diffuses things, but then to then to go back and try to bring healing and restoration in those relationships and put the things on the table that have been living in quiet, in festering.   - Adam Weber And there is to me that's a really practical thing. But to me, that is there's empathy in that because when conflict festers, it really at work. When conflict festers at work, it really impacts all aspects of a human being's life. And so to dive into that and to help create resolution in those situations, I think can really unlock workplaces. But it also creates better lives for all the parties that are involved in those scenarios.   – Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I agree to be able to wait into those deep waters and help diffuse it by radical attention. And just really hearing people is huge. Anything else? From your notes?   – Adam Weber I think we did it. I feel pretty good.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   If you are interested in reading Adam's book, Lead Like a Human, to get more great content, it is linked in the show notes.    Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Adam…   Leaders, are you aware of and coping with your stress in a healthy way?  Adam talked about how some of his early missteps happened when he was under tremendous stress that he then pushed out onto his people.  Is this happening to you?  Maybe that is through a gratitude walk or writing your feelings down in cursive or taking some purposeful grounding time. Empathy is especially important in times of conflict…which is where it is most likely to go out the window!Adam found that just giving people the time to talk and express their feelings was really powerful, it made them feel heard and moved the conversation much closer to its eventual resolution So many employees get promoted to management positions without being trained or prepared for what it means to manage and care for people.They are internalizing stress from above and from their own expectations and that often derails their leadership efforts.  How are your training your managers?  Are you giving them the skills they need to really connect on a human level with the people they are leading:  with their hopes, apprehensions, and challenges?      OUTRO   You can find out more about “Lead Like a Human” here:  https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Like-Human-Practical-Building-ebook/dp/B08DG14GG6   You can find out more about HR Superstars here:  www.Community.15five.com

- Max Yoder That divine middle is emotional liberation, where I can be compassionate and show compassion to an individual. But I do not need to carry whatever it is that they are feeling, right, not my responsibility to. And the thing about the thing that I think this is so important for me in my life is I think this was my biggest blocker, my biggest blocker to grow like something that I may have gone through my whole life and never addressed if it were not for something like Lessonly.   INTRO   When companies and individuals think about skilling-up in empathy and compassion, there are common questions that arise.  How can I take on the feelings of others without being crushed by them?  What do good boundaries look like?  How am I ever going to keep my people accountable to their actual work if I start being all touchy-feely with the.    My guest today touches on all of these questions and more.  There are many reasons why you should take the time to listen to Max Yoder:  he is erudite, well-read (see all of the books and authors he noted in the show notes), and he really cares about people.    He is also the co-founder of the continually growing learning platform, Lessonly.  Just last week, Lessonly made headlines in the tech world when they were acquired by Seismic.  And the last few years has been a series of success stories for the company.    Max is much more than an executive and a thinker, he is also a crafter of Lego art.    - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Is there anything that you found yourself giving time to in the pandemic, whether that's like a new pursuit or a hobby that you have particularly enjoyed?   - Max Yoder Yeah. I've given myself a lot more time to make art, and I tend to make art with Legos. I really appreciate this man named Joseph Albers, who was a teacher at Black Mountain College, right. During World War two, post World War II. And he created this series of things called Homage to a Square. And he really like color theory. So he would put basically squares inside one another. And he did about two0 of these over a series of 20 years, I think from his 60s to his 80s, if I recall correctly, so hugely inspired by somebody doing 2001 thing from their 60 to their 80s.   - Max Yoder And these squares, like I said, they're color theory. So he was trying different colors, and he said when I put a blue in the middle and I surround it with a red, that blue takes on a different cue, then it visually looks different than if I surround it with a lighter blue. Like what we put around to color changes the way we perceived that color.   - Max Yoder So during COVID, I started doing all of these squares, and they were these really great free flow activity where I could get a 16 by 16 Lego square.   - Max Yoder And I would create my own version of Joseph Albers Homage to a Square, all these different colors, and I have them all around my attic now. And it was just one of those things that I could do without thinking I sift through the Legos, I'd find the right color. I'd build these squares. It was not taxing, but it was rewarding.   - Max Yoder And so I think in general, what I learned to do during COVID was play and not have a goal. And in one way of doing that with art and just really, truly understand what playing is, because I think I spent a lot of my adult life and I think a lot of my adolescent life achieving instead of playing, and I think you can do both at the same time.   - Max Yoder But I don't think I was doing both. I think mostly achieving I love that.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, especially with the relentless pace of work in general, but especially accelerated as a result of the pandemic to actually have spaces of purposeful rest, whether that's like actual physical rest of sleeping or encompassing it with the mental release of play is something that I hear again and again as I work with different individuals, even as being really life giving. Yeah. I love that   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You also have welcomed, I think, a new little person into your home in the midst of the pandemic you find that that has having a child in the home has unleashed some different capacities in you as well?   - Max Yoder Oh, yeah. So my daughter Marnie, she's eleven months old yesterday and eleven months.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Happy eleven months, Marnie.   - Max Yoder Yeah, pretty special. Full name is Marina. When she was born, we didn't know she was gonna be a boy or a girl. She came out of my wife, and we had three names for girls, picked out three names for boys. Marina was the one that was clearly the winner. And then basically, as soon after that, we just started calling her money. So she came home and just changed our lives there's. Covid before Marnie and this COVID after Marnie and COVID after Marnie is excellent. You know, I think COVID before Marnie was really tough for a whole host of reasons, but when Marnie came, she brought this new life to our house, like literal new life.   - Max Yoder Right. And then just this vitality to just and I of seeing the world differently and being a dad and watching my wife be a mom. And now being a husband to a mother, like all these things are life changing. And I'm 33 years old this year, and I just sent myself shifting from this achievement mentality to more kind of focusing on now, what do I care about? Why do I care about it? And am I doing the things that I care about? And my family is something that I care about?   - Max Yoder Music is something that I care about reading or things that I care about. And the difference between that and achievement and Carl, you the psychiatrist, help me figure this all out is I'm not doing them to impress anybody or to get anybody's. Applause I'm doing them because I care about them. And if somebody doesn't care about them, that's okay by me. And somebody does care about them. That's okay by me. But I'm not doing it for anybody else. Right?   - Max Yoder And being with my daughter is just something that is really important to me because she just wants me to be there with her.   - Max Yoder She doesn't even need me to do anything. She just needs me to be watching her spending time with her. And it's just been really cool to over eleven months. Jess, who's a very calm woman, nurture Marni and love on Many. I think I call myself in a big way in front of Many. Many got her grandpa and her grandma, and then we have a woman named Gabs, who is a friend of ours and the caretaker of Mary three days a week. And all these people just are very calm personalities.   - Max Yoder And Marni has just been wrapped around with so much love and kind of calmness. And what I imagine is going to come from that is what has come from that, which she's very adventurous, like, she's not scared. She's vibrant, and I just feel really lucky because it's not that parents don't want to give that to their kids, right? I think it's just sometimes we just don't have the resources, don't have the time, we're overstressed, and we're in a fortunate position where that's not the case. And it is highly rewarding to see my daughter be that's exploring, creative, laughing kid.   - Max Yoder And I want that for everybody because it's a real gift. I.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Love that enjoyment of just her presence and watching her flourishing.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And something that you said kind of, like, particularly caught my attention, that I'm not thinking primarily of what I'm doing for her. I'm just being with her. I'm paying attention and the power of presence, which is its own segue into some of what we want to talk about today, which is empathy and connection in the workplace, because although it's not like a paternal relationship with those that you work with, I think there's this deeply human need to be seen and acknowledge, and I'd like to kick it off.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I know you're a leader that values cultivating this in your workplace. What is a personal story for you about why empathy and human connection really matter specifically in the workplace?   - Max Yoder Yeah. I think empathy allows me to feel as somebody, so it allows me to kind of sit in their shoes and do my best approximation of what's stressing them or what's bringing them joy, like, empathizing with their situation. And I think that's incredibly important to a certain degree. I think the place where I get the most juice is being compassionate. And I think I've learned to recognize feeling sympathy for somebody, understanding that they are going through pain, but not carrying that pain as my owner running those same circuits myself.   - Max Yoder This is something that Robert Sapolsky to a gentleman from Stanford has helped me understand. If I sit there and run the circuits all day long that somebody else is running and I get stressed with them, I wear myself out, but I can be compassionate and sympathetic to an individual. Like, if they're hurting, I can acknowledge that they're hurting, but I don't need to run the same circuits.   - Max Yoder So I think it's really important to be empathetic because it gives me a chance to kind of sit in something and understand. Oh, yeah, that does not feel good. But I can't run that circuit too much because I'll wear myself out. But I can run the compassion circuit a lot longer where I can see if somebody's in pain, even if they're yelling at me or they're frustrated with something that, you know, life is tough there in a difficult situation that you might describe as suffering. I might describe a suffering.   - Max Yoder And to be a calm presence in the face of that is a gift in and of itself. I might not have to do anything more than that. Then just be calm in front of them, not diminish or dilute. What they're saying also enhance what they're saying. Just be there as a calm presence that listen. And who does that take me? Has that taken me a long time to learn?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Can you give me an example? What has that looked like for you and your leadership over the last year and a half?   - Max Yoder Yeah. I think we can. I go back longer than that because I think the Lessonly journey is nine years long to date, July 12 today. And I noticed that as we hired more and more people, we hit 17 people, and then we hit 25 people and then hit 50 people, that there was always more feelings coming into the business. Right. A woman named Jill Bolte Taylor, a friend and somebody who I love says we are feeling creatures who think, not thinking, creatures who feel feeling, creatures who think.   - Max Yoder So we are a lot of feelings, right. We are very emotional. And for most of my life, I believe that was responsible for people's feelings. And I believed that I was responsible also for their judgments, which kind of two sides of the same coin. I just feeling responsible for two things that are not my responsibility. Right. Feelings and judgments of other folks. So I would try to carry those feelings as my own, and I would kind of assume those judgments as fact and they crushed me.   - Max Yoder So I'm going to focus on the feelings part today, as opposed to the judgments or for this moment, on the feelings part.   - Max Yoder There was a lot of feelings in the business, and every time we hired a new person, just more and more feelings, and we got to 50 people, and I couldn't take it anymore. I was probably a long pass being able to take it anymore. I was stressed, self medicating, trying to keep up with all the feelings. And it wasn't working because the frantic folks around me, if they were feeling frantic, I was becoming frantic myself, and that's just not what people need.   - Max Yoder So I was fortunate enough. One of my teammates, who her name was Casey Combo. At the time, she's since married, she gave me a book called Non Violent Communication, not because she knew I was struggling with this, but because she knew I was looking for different methods for clear communication that was not aggressive, that was not argumentative, but was clear and compassionate. And in this book, Marshall Rosenberg writes about emotional slavery, which was exactly what I was. I was an emotional slave. I believe other people's feelings my responsibility.   - Max Yoder And then he writes about emotional liberation. And he talks about these stages, the first stage, being emotional slavery of I assume your feelings as my own and my responsibility, and I carry them, and I get tired and you get tired. He says that a lot of times when people do that for so long, they might move into the next stage, which is basically disavowing other people's feelings. And right, about 50 people. That's really the only thing I knew how to do at that point. I was like, I can't carry all these feelings, so I'm just going to say no to all of them.   - Max Yoder We hired Megan Jarvis at that point or head of the yeah, wonderful. Right. And I was like, hey, Megan, I'm so glad you're here. I need you to take the ceilings, like, I just need to go high. But, like, that was so not fun for me, because being with people is why I like my job, you know? So hiding from the feelings, man, I wasn't going to like my job, so it was just not going to work. So depending on my energy levels, I'd either carry people's feelings or I would hide.   - Max Yoder And Marshall Rosenberg showed me that there's a third way. So those are two extremes right side of turning feelings all the way down to I don't care at all. So turning it down to 0% or turning it all the way up to a 100% care about everybody's feelings. And he makes it clear that there's this divine middle and that divine middle is emotional liberation, where I can be compassionate and show compassion to an individual. But I do not need to carry whatever it is that they are feeling, right, not my responsibility to.   - Max Yoder And the thing about the thing that I think this is so important for me in my life is I think this was my biggest blocker, my biggest blocker to grow like something that I may have gone through my whole life and never addressed if it were not for something like Lessonly. Lessonly is this thing that's bigger than me, and it needed me. It was either going to crush me if I didn't figure this out, or I need to figure this out to keep my job. I wasn't going to be able to do my job if I didn't figure this out.   - Max Yoder And so this bigger thing than me forced me to figure this out. And Marshall Rosenberg game is a blueprint of emotional liberation, and that's what I began to practice. And I don't know if I'm never going to be the same because of that.   - Max Yoder In a really, really healthy way. I don't feel responsible for other people's feelings anymore. I feel responsible for my feelings and kind of making sure that I take care of myself. I are responsible for my intent behind my behavior. I'm responsible for my behavior.   - Max Yoder I consider myself responsible for those things. Doesn't mean I consider you responsible for yours. I just telling you, I consider my response for those things. And so that's what I focus on.   - Max Yoder And the reason I bring that up is in the journey of lesson. Like, there's been nothing more important to me than this.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I'm struck in finding that third way that you needed to develop a skill set of perhaps encountering the emotion. And I don't know if discharging is the right word, but even, like, energetically being able to release your feelings of responsibility, what what did that look like?   - Max Yoder Thanks for asking that. I mean, very clumsy at first. Right. Like, understanding something intellectually does not mean that I can do it. Well, I have to practice it again and again and again, which is a whole other topic we should discuss of. Just like, intellectual understanding is not knowing. Knowing is doing. You cannot know something without having done it is otherwise it's intellectual understanding. So I had to practice a heck of a lot and remind myself that when somebody came to me and brought something, it was always coming through the lens of their own experiences.   - Max Yoder And it was never simply about the thing that had happened. They were also bringing to me whatever else was going on in our life, because we can't separate that. We can't separate, like if we're having an emotionally charged home life and something happens at work, and it is like the straw that breaks the camel's back. What I hear from that person is just the work thing, right? What I don't see is all the stuff underneath the water that is happening. That is not my business, but it's always there, right?   - Max Yoder And when I would make a decision network Edwin Friedman, who wrote this book called The Failure of Nerve, he really helped me with this. He helped me understand that I'm always in a relational triangle with each person. And this was a big breakthrough for me. This is like something that intellectually, really helped me break through in terms of my practice, which was when somebody comes to me, there's always a third thing in the room, and that is a prior issue that they might be bringing, or I might be bringing or another person that they might be bringing to the conversation where I might be bringing.   - Max Yoder So to make it clear, like, Liesel, you and I are engaging right now, and we need shortcuts to kind of understand how to behave with one another. So we might filter through other people that we know that remind us of one another. And so when I meet people like Liesel, which this is just a brain by a shortcut, these things you'll come to mind. And in your case, I get a lot of warmth from you. But let's say I reminded you of somebody who really rub you the wrong way in the past.   - Max Yoder You might engage with me through the lens of that person. It's not just about me and you directly. It's a third thing that everything goes through and that's happening all the time everywhere. We're not directly relating to one another, relating through our past experiences and the people that we've known in the past. That helped me a lot, because when somebody would come to me and be really fired up about something that I thought was disproportionate to what it just happened, it helped me understand why that might be.   - Max Yoder There might have been a past issue, that this was emotional wound that was being poked at. It was not my responsibility, right? But I can sit there and be attached into the person. And maybe they don't understand that here, bringing that to the table. But I can have a sense like, this is not just about me and this person and this thing that's happening, they're filtering through their life. Right? And so when I realized that through Edwin Freeman, I realized it almost gave me permission to not carry things, because people are always bringing more to me than was between me and them.   - Max Yoder And I'm always bringing more to people that is between me and them. So I don't want them to carry my stuff. And I don't want to carry theirs. Does that help, or does that make sense?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. That understanding. Did you find yourself needing? Some people engage in breathing exercises or they find themselves even to physically move as you are growing in this practice, there were things that you were like reading that were helping contextualize it. Were there other things that you like, embodied practices that were really helping.   - Max Yoder Oh, yeah. Getting sleep sober, sleep hugely helpful. Like, I can show up and be calm in a conversation in a much richer way if I do not drink booze before bed. And I don't mean, like, I mean any amount of booze. And this is a rule that I break a lot for myself, which is like even a glass of wine at 05:00 p.m. Or 06:00 p.m.. It affects my sleep. So if I really want to be the best version of me, I say no, and I sleep better.   - Max Yoder And it's just a fact of the matter. I am much less agitated. I am much calmer. So doing my pre work of getting exercise, eating well, sleeping well. And all those things are intertwined, what I eat and how I exercise to fix my sleep. So that matters to me a lot of just kind of taking care of myself and controlling the variables I can control. And then in that moment, if somebody's losing, they're cool in front of me or I'm losing my cool in front of them.   - Max Yoder And my therapist, Terry Daniel, says it can help basically coach me. It can help to put your hand on your stomach, like, on your skin. And it can be a safer thing to do when we're not physically in the room together. Like, let's say I'm having a different conversation over the phone, like, happening a lot over COVID. And just that skin to skin connection with myself can be very helpful. Breathing. Breathing deeply when I'm with somebody can be very helpful. Breathing and showing them slow my breath down can even be coming to them.   - Max Yoder So, yeah, there's physical things that I can do in that moment. And I hope it's very clear that I'm not suggesting that I nail this every time. Right. These are just tools that I have to do this a little bit better every day.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. I think that's helpful. As you were beginning, you talked about this inflection point at 50 employees where you started giving more attention to the particular presence that you were bringing. What did you start to notice? Did you notice the difference in people's receptivity to you and the sorts of things they were saying back to you as you grew in this practice?   - Max Yoder Yeah. Here's one thing that comes to mind that I noticed is I noticed I didn't have to solve anybody's problems for them. And I used to think I had to, like, I used to think I had to come up with solutions. And more than anything, now, I can be with somebody ask them questions and ask them questions and do active listening. So, like, one of the things I learned through motivational interviewing is if somebody's telling me something instead of asking a question, saying something like, so maybe somebody comes to me and says they haven't responded to me three times.   - Max Yoder You're frustrated might be the way I summarize where I think that person is at based on what they just told me. And then they had to go, Well, not really frustrated, just a little bit irritated. Or they go, yeah, I'm totally frustrated, and they keep talking. And when I'm getting them to do with this verbally process, and I'm only doing that because when they verbally process this stuff, they come up with answers a lot better. Right. But if I'm talking the whole time, it's tough for them to find answers.   - Max Yoder So when I reflect what I'm hearing with a statement, it gives them a chance to keep talking so that they can kind of maybe all I have to do is just get it out. Right. Not keep it in, just say it to somebody. Some days that's all that happened, and two or three days go by and they call me and they say, I think I figured out what to do. Thanks for listening the other day, it just is it. And I'm somebody who wants to solve a problem.   - Max Yoder Right. But in fact, sometimes I'm doing somebody a major disservice by even if I got the answer right on the off chance I get the answer right. With the limited information I have sometimes saying, hey, maybe here's what you should do is a complete disservice to that individual, because me giving it to them might make them more likely to actually not pick it up and do it. But if I were to just a little calmer and let them give you that conclusion themselves, it's so much more powerful if they thought of it.   - Max Yoder Right. Like, you don't want to be told to do things. So sometimes even if it's the right call, we might do the opposite of what I've just been told because we got told to do it. But if somebody can figure it out themselves, that's the most powerful.   - Max Yoder That's the most powerful recipe, even if it's exactly the same thing I would have said. Right. And most of the time, of course, I don't have the answer. But I guess my point is sometimes even giving somebody the answer unless they're asking me for it.   - Max Yoder Right. Unless they're saying Max, I really want your feedback here, which is a whole different prompt. Right. But if they're not asking for it and give it a I can do a major disservice in that process.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. I think that's such a good word, because I think especially as people get, we oftentimes promote people on their capacity to solve problems. It's a really valuable skill set to organizational growth and leadership. In my work, I call it the predisposition to be in a Fix-It, Frank.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And what I heard and what you said is also a comfortability with a slightly extended time horizon. I think as I verbally process something that I see in the leaders that I work with, is there this imperative of like, well, we need to get it figured out now. We need to get it figured out in the moment. And I've got insights and I've got a history, and so I'll give it to you, and then you'll be happy. And how that short circuiting of the process, it can be a move of not believing that there's enough time to let somebody come to their own conclusion or not believing that they have the capacity of do so.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So I've just got to give it to you in this moment.   - Max Yoder Right.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And the cost that can be associated with doing that, I think he spoke really eloquently to.   - Max Yoder Well, thank you for hearing me out, because I think that's taking me a long time. Like, what I saw is the people who I would go to therapy with were very reluctant to give answers. So they were modeling for me, and I'd ask them why, and they teach me. And I don't consider myself a therapist. Right. But these people I do consider they are therapists. They're professinally, trained and in some cases, done it for 40 years. That's a long time. And there's a lot of mistakes being made in that process to their admittance, seeing them and seeing how helpful it was for me, but also knowing that there were times when I would go to that person to say I'd really like some advice.   - Max Yoder And I've opened the door at that point to hear them. And many times the advice they give me, I don't take it up with open arms. It's when that advice feels pushed, then that's when it doesn't work, right. When it feels pushed or forced. But when it's invited, that's a whole different motion.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. So the acknowledgment of seeing a therapist of some of the things that they have helped you with. You recently did something for your company where you interviewed your therapist to talk about boundaries. I'd like to hear about why that felt important for you to do. And what were some of the key learnings that you felt like were really important for your people,   - Max Yoder Yeah. So while I was important and what do people take away from it? I can only tell you what to away from because they haven't seen the interview yet. At the time of this conversation, we have not shown it to them yet. But I'll tell you what I hope to take away from it. But I'll start with, hey, here's why this is important. Many of my teammates asked me about boundaries just completely unprompted. They would come to me and say, hey, I'm going on a vacation. I know that you encourage us to turn all of our stuff off, to delete our email and our delete our slack from our phones, so we're not going to compulsively check them.   - Max Yoder But I don't know if I'm comfortable doing that. And for whatever reason, they were not willing to accept themselves doing that they were concerned. And that's a boundaries challenge for me. I speak openly about having engaged with people that I love who have substance use challenges. And I speak openly about having to learn about boundaries in that process where I begin and they end in where they end, and I begin. It's a very important part of understanding how to be healthy in the midst of something that is really, really challenging, which is substance use disorder, which you might co alcoholism or any number of things.   - Max Yoder Right. So I speak openly about these things. People come to me, and it's clear to me that this is not something that we get a lot of attention. And I would generally share. See, if somebody wanted something from me, I would generally share a talk by Gabor Monte called "When the body says no" was good.   - Max Yoder He's a master, and he speaks about boundaries. Basically, caregivers tend to struggle taking care of themselves, and they'll just give care and give care and give care, and they will not care for themselves. They'll be asymmetrical in the way they give care. The way that they care for somebody else is one way. And the way that her from themselves is completely opposite. Basically, like, they don't deserve any care, but everybody else deserves all the care. And he basically talks about how this just Withers people away. So all of these things combined, I know boundaries are important in my life, and my teammates come to me and say they matter.   - Max Yoder Gabor Mate gives this talk. And when I share with people, they tell me like, oh, my gosh, my brain just blew open in such an interesting way because he's so profound. So I'm thinking, hey, this is a chance for me, too. And so I asked my therapist about how does he view boundaries? And he gave this just excellent off the cuff answer. And I was like, Can I just interview you sometime about this? And so we can share this with my teammates, because exactly what you just said.   - Max Yoder So he comes in and we talk about boundaries. And I thought it was important because I just it's just not talked about in our world. Right? We think Kind is doing things for other people, kind of at any expense to ourselves. Right. Like, well, they asked for it. So I got to give it because I don't want to be a jerk.   - Max Yoder It's like that. It's not. We have to counterbalance kindness with boundaries, with assertiveness. And I just see people who do not have those tools to be assertive, and it's very stressful for them, and I ultimately think it's slowly killing them. So I think this is important. So here's what I hope people take from it. When they hear a assertiveness, I think they maybe hear aggressiveness. And Terry is very clear that you can be assertive without infringing on anybody else's energy or anybody else's motion. Like, it's not about aggression, right?   - Max Yoder Those are two different things. Assertiveness is the ability to say yes or no based on you wanting to or not wanting to. And he says it ultimately comes from a place of self acceptance. If I enter a space and I accept myself, then I can assert my needs. And asserting my needs does not mean dominating your needs, right? It just means if I'm tired, somebody comes to me and says, hey, can we do this thing today? I might say if I'd like to do it tomorrow, I just don't have the energy today.   - Max Yoder I like to do it tomorrow. And if that person is not willing to accept it, I say I understand, but I still have the energy. Can we do it tomorrow? And he's like, if you don't accept yourself, you won't even ask. You may not even ask the question of can we do it tomorrow? Because you may be coming from a place to say, I'm not good enough in order to feel good enough, I need to answer this request. But he's, like an accepting person, believes they're good enough.   - Max Yoder They don't believe that they're going to be good enough by doing the request on the demanded time. Right. They're just good enough. And so he really clarified in a big way how self acceptance is key here. And what keeps us from exerting boundaries is a fear. And each person's fear might be different. But understanding what that fear is, it might be that you feel like you're not good enough for X, Y, or Z reason might be something different, but getting down to that fear and understanding it and and working through that is the way that we get to a place where we're comfortable enough to say no, thank you and stand by it and not be worried that that person, we're going to lose that person by doing so.   - Max Yoder So there.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, and as I think of some of the responses and groups and surveys and the work that I do, I think there's an underlying fear for many people that if I assert this boundary, people aren't going to like me as much. They're going to think I'm lazy. And while you, as a leader, cannot, in a top down way, control people's responses to things like establishing boundaries or expressing vulnerability, that there is an element of culture creation that goes into this. How do we, as a group, you know, not always perfectly respond, but have more of a context where we, like, make the space for that.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes We make the space for it's okay to say no. We make the space for vulnerability. What are some of the ways that you have co created with some of the other leaders at Lessonly, a culture that says it's okay to do that? What are things that you have done that have moved the needle?   - Max Yoder Yeah. So if the executive team at Lessonly is unable to assert ourselves, like, if we are not assertive in a situation, if we say yes to every new thing that comes our way, we are not modeling what we need the rest of our teammates to do. So it's incredibly important that a certain boundaries in my life that the executive team set boundaries and their lives, that when it's too much, we say it's too much. That is the fundamentally most important thing we can do to make it okay for anybody else to do it.   - Max Yoder The opposite approach that does not work is the same as your boss saying, hey, I don't expect you to work on the weekends, but I'm gonna because, you know, I got a lot to do, but I don't expect you to, and that just doesn't work. You know what? People here, I better be working on the weekends, right? If your behavior is not aligned to your words, people are going to look at your behavior, right? Not your words. They're going to trust your behavior, not your words.   - Max Yoder So what I want to do is align my words to my behavior, which is to say weekends are sacred, just like winter is the season that allows for spring. And winter is a season where it looks like there's not a lot happening, but there is a lot happening. Sleep at a time when it look like there's not a lot happening, but there is a lot happening. We need weekends or it looks like there's not a lot happening, but there is a lot happening, right? This resting and recharging is incredibly important.   - Max Yoder And if I don't treat my weekends like I want to people to treat them. And then why would I believe they're going to do that? Right. I can't do anything more than that is just make the space to say like, I mean it when I say this, and I mean it because this is my behavior, and I need my executive teammates to mean it, too. And I need the managers to also mean it, too. And in some ways, that goes well in other ways. It doesn't.   - Max Yoder Right. But it's ultimately out of my hands to some degree. Right. If people are going to pick that up, if we have a chronically, chronic challenge of the teammate, it's my responsibility to have a difficult conversation with them and let them know how important their modeling is, no doubt. But ultimately they're going to make the call if they want to change their behavior or not. And it's out of my hands if I'm doing it myself.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I'm struck right now that it's a tight labor market for many people.  Lessonly is growing. You're wanting to bring more people on. Do you feel like you have seen a through line towards creating this kind of culture where rests and seasons and vulnerability is upheld and valued and the way you're able to attract and retain talent?   - Max Yoder I think we understand part of the recipe, but we exist in a system, though, that is chronically overworked and systems win. Like individuals, we've created a system a lesson that I'm really proud of. But we're also in this broader work environment, in this cultural environment of overwork. And unfortunately, those systems, if we don't kind of remove ourselves from them and do a lot of extra work, they win. The bigger system wins. The culture wins. If they didn't win, we wouldn't probably have 25% to 50% of the population reporting depressive States.   - Max Yoder Right.   - Max Yoder The culture is winning. We've optimized for economic growth, we've optimized for consumerism, we've optimized for commercialism. We haven't optimized for well being. And look what we're getting, right. We're not getting a lot of well being because the system is not in support of of that. So it's discouraging. It just is. And so we can only do so much less only to turn the tide. But it's our job to at least try. And one of the things that I find complete myself to be completely powerless to change is that there is no winter in software.   - Max Yoder There's no winter in the business world. There is no period of three months like there is for a pro athlete or for a farmer, where we work really hard and we plant and then we harvest. I'm not a farmer, so I'm not going to use all the right words, but we create a crop or mini crops. And then we have this period with winter where we take our time to rebuild. And pro athletes have their own seasoned in their off seasons. And this is wise. This is wise.   - Max Yoder I have not figured out how to recreate that in the business world. And I don't know if I ever will. It just is the system at work, right? Our customers, even if we take that time off, if we were to say less, only going to B nine months out of twelve, we're going to lose deals because there's a lot of deals because people need us for those three months, they were going to be off, right? Because they're going to be on. So, you know, it's not an excuse.   - Max Yoder It's just me saying, like, I don't know how to do it, right.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes The pressures of the prevailing system of capitalism that prioritizes growth and efficiency above all else.   - Max Yoder You said it well.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We'll return in just a moment for the final portion of my engaging interview with Max.  But I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  In the midst of the unrelenting stressors the last year and a half, are you giving your people what they need to stay engaged?  Empathy is key to building the sort of culture of connection that Max is talking about at Lessonly.  And the good news is, it is a skill that can be learned!  If you want help in skill-ing your people up in empathy and creating a place where people want to come to work, Handle with Care Consulting can help.  With interactive keynotes, empathy at work certificate programs, and coaching options, we can help you show care when it matters most.   MUSICAL TRANSITON   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I would love to hear about times when building connection at your workplace have felt easy for you and why you think they felt easy. And then I'm going to have to underside. What are times when building connections felt really hard for you and why you think to start with when it felt easy?   - Max Yoder Yeah. When it's all easy to build connections, when I am accepting on myself to go back to Terry Daniels lesson. I mean, it has everything to do with my my internal system being an equilibrium, you know, which is a delicate thing, right? One night of sleep and throw it off. But when I am in this place of peace with myself, I'm able to bring peace to my connections and not view myself as needing to be anything other than what I am. But when I'm not at peace with myself, I can go to a state of judgment and criticism.   - Max Yoder And if I drop a ball or miss a mark and these are judgments that I would make of myself, you mess that up, you drop this ball, you miss that Mark. Those are all judgments in their evaluator language. It can be very harsh with myself and showing up to a situation. Putting intense pressure myself does not increase my connection to the person in front of me or the room in front of me. But when I show up and just say, like, you know, I accept myself, and acceptance does not equal agreement.   - Max Yoder Like, acceptance does not mean I've got it all figured out. Therefore, I'm good. Acceptance just means I'm willing to look at my own behavior and accept it. Whether it's behavior that I can objectively say is life giving or soul sucking, I have to be able to look at it to accept myself. And once I can look at it, I might be able to make changes. But if I can't look at something, it's tough to change it. Right. So acceptance is not about saying I like everything that's going on in my life, just about saying I'm willing to look at everthing that going in my life with in an even handed way.   - Max Yoder And when I accept myself, I can show up to a room with my new teammates or my old teammates or a mixture of the two and be peaceful in front of them and talk about mistakes without feeling ashamed and talk about things that I'm proud of without feeling ashamed and and share my humanity. And if I can do that, it maybe gives another person's permission to do the same. So I think it has everything to do with my personal system, being in a good spot here and then acknowledging that my personal system is often not in a good spot to folks so that they understand, like, hey, they're not dealing with somebody who's got this figured out, right?   - Max Yoder Like day in and day out. I might have a different equilibrium, or I might have a different disequilibrium, right? It's not about coming at this from a place like I've got this oneness every day. I certainly do not do. Not at all. Right. But when I'm at peace, I can connect better. And I find that to be a really fun time in that journey towards self acceptance.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Something consistent theme that I hear from leaders is just the particular burden of other people's expectations about what it looks like to lead or manage change in a given season; as you are seeking that equilibrium and self acceptance, what about when you smack up against somebody else's? Like, judgment? I needed you to be different. I wanted you. You're not doing it the way that I would like for you to. How do you encounter those voices, real or perceived and still work to maintain well in the balance?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Because sometimes we do need to change. Sometimes it's like, oh, that was a blind spot. I need to change. And sometimes we need to be able to have the discernment to say, like, hey, that's your stuff, not mine. How do you navigate that process?   - Max Yoder You nailed it, right? How much does this person love me? Is my first question. How well does this person know me? If it's my wife, I know she deeply loves me. And when she brings me something where she says, hey, what I got and what I needed were far apart, I'm listening. I'm not sitting there saying, hey, your expectations of me don't matter, right? I'm listening. It might not be that I agree with everything she says, right? But I'm definitely not shutting it all out either, right?   - Max Yoder She is just like me going to come at this from an emotional triangle of past wounds, but doesn't mean that there's not real meat on the boat when she's frustrated. Right now, if somebody needs something from me and I don't know them very well, and I'm skeptical that they love me or know me really at all, it's not that challenging anymore for me to just kind of let that. There's a moment at first that I go back to my old self of getting defensive or being hurt.   - Max Yoder And it's more than a moment sometimes, right? It could be an hour. It could be 2 hours. It could be 3 hours. It could be a good night sleep that needs me through it. But then I'm like, yeah, that's okay. Life is too short. So it depends on my relationship to this individual. And Brene Brown has the idea of the Square Squad, where, you know, the coal world can't be my critic, and I can't have nobody has my critic either, right? I need the people who love me, care about me.   - Max Yoder And if the Square Squad is the one inch by one inch piece of paper where I can put the names of the people who I know love me, who will tell me the truth as they see the truth, right? They're version of the truth, and I know that they're not going to willingly hurt me for fun. And those are the folks who feedback. I am a lot more. I'm a lot more discerning with. Right? But if somebody's coming out with this condemnation or an unspoken expectation and they say you didn't meet my unspoken expectation, like, that is not my problem because it's an unbroken expectation.   - Max Yoder There was no agreement there. I've got a chapter and Do Better Work, which is a book I got to write a couple of years ago that uses Steve Chandler wisdom of expectations versus agreement. Like, if we did not agree to that thing, then we have to get that agreement now and then begin to hold another accountable going forward. But if we didn't have an agreement and you're mad about not spoken expectation, like, I need you to look in the mirror and say, like, hey, we get an agreement because I don't remember the agreement now, and I can't read your mind, and we don't need to go back and litigate the path that you're frustrated about when we didn't have this agreement.   - Max Yoder Just an unspoken expectation. But we can make an agreement now. And an agreement is not you dictating at me or me dictating you. It's us going back and forth and negotiating a course of action that we say, okay, this feels good collectively. You know, that is a relationship. When we do that, the other thing is just, you know, I can't live in a world where I just have to respond to everybody's unspoken expectations.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Something that I like and have appreciated. I think I've been getting your emails for, like, the last two years just because I enjoy reading them.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But you compiled them into a book that you just referenced. Do Better Work. You have a new book coming out. Tell us about that.   - Max Yoder Yeah. So I took those notes and compiled it. So the first book do better work. I'd been writing notes, took some of those, turn them into chapters. This one is called To See It, be It. And I'll say that a little slower to see it. Be it. The idea is, if you want to see it, be it. And that's the best you can do. Right. I want to see more patience in this moment. Bring patience. If you want to see more creativity in the world, bring creativity.   - Max Yoder And then let go of all the other stuff of what you want other people to be doing, because I think it's just very, very common and very easy to get wrapped around the axle of what other people are not doing. And I honestly think some people will die spending most of their time complaining about what somebody else is or is not doing instead of going, do I do what I value? Right? Do I live by what I value? And, of course, the answer is going to be no, because nobody does that perfectly.   - Max Yoder And then the next question, if the answer is no, what it always is, how can I begin to spend more time doing what I value? And let go of worrying about what anybody else is doing?  And, of course, there's a relationships with husbands and wives and kids were that's incredibly difficult, right. And there might have to be boundary set where I feel like I'm living my values over here and there's somebody else in my space consistently that I just don't feel like I can do my best self around.   - Max Yoder That might require boundaries of separation. I just don't be together anymore. But what I'm getting at is, I think one of the greatest things we can do for ourselves to say what I want to see in the world, and how do I, at the time align to what I want to see in the world? And I think what happens when we do that is we either find that the things we want to see in the world has validity to them. We start to live them, and we start to see that they're very life giving.   - Max Yoder Like, let's just use an example of getting good sleep. I want to see people well rested in the world. Well, I can't control how you sleep. I can control how I sleep. So if I take care of my rest, I want to see it, and I'm being it, right. And I can let go of all the other things. But at least I'm doing the thing that I want to see more people doing, and I'm letting go of whether they're doing it or.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, not.   - Max Yoder And as I do that, I might say, hey, this feels pretty good. Like I had a hunch that sleep taking care of sleep was going to be helpful. And look how beautiful life is now that I've been able to take care of my sleep, which I understand is not an option for everybody. But I'm saying it's an option for me. So sometimes living my values strengthens those values. Other times, living things that I believe I value, like I intellectually value it, and then I start trying to live it.   - Max Yoder I found out, oh, I don't really value that as much as I thought I would putting into practice. I see that there is that there are problems and there are always problems with any value is taken to an extreme. Like loyalty. I value loyalty. Taken to the extreme, it becomes blind loyalty. If I turn it all the way up to 100% loyalty, I become blindly loyal. If I turn all the way down to 0% loyalty, I don't have any loyalty at all. Right. I need to have that loyalty dialed into something somewhere in the middle counterbalanced with once again assertiveness and boundaries.   - Max Yoder I'm loyal to somebody, but not at the expense of my own mental health and well being. It those two things counterbalance one another. So only by living that value do I learn those hard lessons, in my opinion. Right. I can't learn them intellectually. I have to live them and say, oh, wow, I do value this, but I value a different permutation of it than I thought. That makes sense.   - Max Yoder So that's what the book that's the first chapter of the book is, or the first note in the book. And then there's 24 notes after that of other things that I just think are important, and I share them because they help me and they help somebody else. Great. I just know for a fact that all 25 of them help me. And my hope is that maybe one day somebody picks them up and they want to read the book. Right. They're choosing to read the book. And one of the notes, as as it helps me in the past, helps them in a similar way or a different way altogether.   - Max Yoder That is healing as the whole point of the book.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. Well, and your writing is accessible. It's oftentimes encompassing story. It's nice digestible bits of wisdom that you could blaze through all at once, so you could flip through and take a little at a time. So I'm excited about this new offering.   - Max Yoder Thank you for being open to it. It's a great joy for me to write. I got to dedicate it to my daughter, and I dedicated to her because I just want I could get hit by a bus one day. Liesel. My dad owns a funeral home, and my dad's dad started a funeral home. My dad and his brother ran the funeral home for last 30 years, 20, 30 years. And people just get they just leave, right? They don't choose to go a lot of the time. It's not old age that takes us all.   - Max Yoder So I'm very highly aware that, like, is not my choice when I get to go and so writing for me is a chance to capture a bit of my spirit. And if I have to go for whatever reason, my daughter can pick up this book and do better work and and catch a little bit of her dad and deeply special to me to be able to capture a little bit of my spirit. And it really forced the genuineness out of it.   - Max Yoder Right. Because I don't want it.   - Max Yoder I don't want my I got to be genuine under that premise. Right. Like, I got to say what I believe, what I mean and what I stand by, because I don't want my daughter reading about somebody who didn't exist.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. Or reflecting in an individual that is not integrated with their best thoughts. Like, we're always seeking that integration, but you don't want a glaring gap between what you say and how you live, right.   - Max Yoder And I want her to see that I hurt. I make mistakes. Right. She's not going to get a picture of a perfect human being because I've never been one of those and they don't exist. She's going to get a picture of somebody who struggled, and that's what I want her to have, because that's the model I want to be. Hey, life is a lot of struggle, and there's a lot of beauty in that, you know, a lot of beauty in that. I've been very fortunate in that struggle, right.   - Max Yoder I always had a roof over my head. I always had food to eat. I don't pretend my struggles like anybody elses, but I can tell you struggle nonetheless. And I don't want her to think that life should just fall into place and be peachy. And that's what life is.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So as we draw near the end of our time for listeners who say I want to build more connection in my workplace, I want to be part of that change.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I know it's a broad question, but what words of insight would you offer to them as they think about how to go about doing that?   - Max Yoder So I want people to ask themselves, what do I value? And how do I, 1% of the time seek to live that value and become symmetrical and congruent with what I value in my behavior? And then how do I learn in that process? Because that's the best I can do. And if I'm in a system like, let's say I'm in a work system where it does not align to my values, I have to ask myself, Am I willing to change into those systems value because the work system will change every person in it if they stay long enough, right?   - Max Yoder It could even change them quickly. But if I'm in a system that is not congruent with my values, I'm going to be nervous because it's possible that that system actually has values that are very life giving. It stay long enough, I'll find out. But if I find out they're not life giving, I stick around. There is a casualty there. There is a loss there. So my ask to people is if you want to see it, be it and then pay attention to what the system cares about.   - Max Yoder And if the system is so disproportionately, caring about things that are not what you care about is very important. If possible, you get out.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That's a good word, Max. Are there any questions that you wish I would have asked you that I didn't ask you?   - Max Yoder Let's see. I mean, I've talked about values a lot, so real quickly, I think something that I love talking about is this idea of reciprocity. Liesel, yeah.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Tell me more.   - Max Yoder Yeah. So reciprocity is idea of I give what I get. And so let's say I get kindness from somebody, so I give it back. But a lot of times reciprocity comes through in a relationship where people are not communicating very clearly, when maybe somebody is struggling and they take their aggression out at somebody else, reciprocity is oftentimes somebody yelled at me. So I yell at them. Somebody didn't respond to my message, so I don't respond to their message. So it becomes I give what I get. And reciprocal cultures, if we're having behaviors that are life giving really beautiful, right?   - Max Yoder Because somebody gives me patience. Ideally, I respond to them with patience, right? Somebody gives me support. Ideally, I respond to them with support. Reciprocity is not necessarily something that is good or bad. It just is. And it resides about giving what we get. So what's the alternative to that? Well, it's living by values, which is, I think, supremely important to understand. If somebody comes to me, maybe somebody doesn't respond to my message that I sent them. And then later, they need something for me. So now they're asking me for my time.   - Max Yoder If I'm reciprocal, I say, Well, they didn't respond to me when I needed them, so I'm not going to respond to them. But if I value driven, I say I value communication, right? I value support, and I would have value that person responding to me when I needed their help. So regardless of the fact that I didn't get it from them, I'm going to give it to them, not out of fight, not to show them the way. Right. Because I value it. It's really important that we get those two things.   - Max Yoder It's not out of fight, right? It's not to prove anything to this person. It's because I value it. So if you're not having difficult conversations with me, it's not an excuse for me because I'm not living in reciprocal life. I believe in difficult conversations. I believe in having them. I'm going to have them with you. And that's the best I can do. You may not respond in the way that I hope that's out of my hands, right. I just value difficult conversations. I value patients. I value forgiveness whether I get them or not.   - Max Yoder So I think reciprocating can be a race to the bottom. It can be this kind of slippery slope of just degrading cultures, degrading relationships, and values based living. If I do it because I value it, not because I get it in return is the answer, in my opinion.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I love it. I agree.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Max and I have to confess, there were definitely more than three valuable takeaways, but I have narrowed it down to these three…   Where are you in the spectrum of people pleasing?  Max talked about emotional slavery (feeling responsible for the emotions of others), and emotional disavowal (rejecting the emotions of others), and the third path of emotional liberation:  being able to adknowledge the meotions of others without being ruled by them.  Where are you find yourself most often ending up? Remember, there is always a third person or situation in each interaction:a relational triangle. People bring their previous experiences, their wounding, their successes, and their home life to a given situation.  It is important to acknowledge this reality because it helps us to contextualize situations.  Max encouraged listeners to ask the question, “What are my values?” and then to take a good look at the organization that they are a part of.If you organization is acting, consistently, against your values, there is a cost.  And maybe it is time to leave.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   OUTRO   Max Yoder:  Do Better Work Robert Sapolsky:  Behave:  The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst Robert Zapolsky:  Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers Gabor Mate:  When the Body Says No Marshall Rosenberg:  Non-Violent Communication 

- Joe Staples For anybody listening, you can learn empathy. It's not something that somebody should go. You know, I'm not an empathetic. So I'm just going to stay the way I am.   INTRO   Human skills ARE business skills.  You cannot create lasting, high-performing teams without paying attention to and caring for the actual humans on your team.   This is something that my guest, Joe Staples, has seen again and again in his years of work.  We are going to talk about tips and tactics to build connection (hint:  nothing brings people together like food), how walking a mile, literally, in someone else's role can build empathy, and why a group softball game was one of Joe's biggest misses in team building.  You will hear stories of high school bullies and reflections on the changing expectations of generations in the workplace.  All in all, it is just one fine episode full of wisdom.    Let me begin with a little bit more about my guest, Joe Staples.  Joe is a senior B2B marketing executive who advises companies around go-to-market strategy and activities. He has spent decades in the business and developed expertise in building a powerful, differentiated brand and generating demand.  Joe is also the author or coauthor of numerous articles on leadership, customer experience, marketing, branding, employee engagement and work management. His work has been featured in all sorts of publications from Ad Age to Digital Marketing Magazine.   Joe lives out in Salt Lake City, where he gets to spend time not just working but enjoying the great outdoors.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What are some of your favorite things that you get to do out in Salt Lake City?   - Joe Staples You know, we have we have a large family and so we're constantly going to parks going up in the mountains. We have we have a cabin that's kind of our getaway place. And, you know, we just we like the outdoors. The interesting one of the most interesting things about Utah is you can you can golf in the in the morning and ski in the afternoon if you hit the time of year just right. And we're 20 minutes from the closest ski resort.   - Joe Staples So a lot to do.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You can you can just have a whole day of recreation at your fingertips.   - Joe Staples Right. And when you when you think of small grandchildren, it doesn't take much to entertain them, give you like some rocks and potato bugs. And there's that   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That's that is true. I feel like in my own family, I have four. I was going to say young children, but the eldest is now 13, so they're getting less young with each passing year. But we know 13 down to seven. And as you mentioned, the cabin, we did well.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes We still do a fair amount of camping. And it's amazing when you strip away some of the electronics and iPads and all the interactive toys that are so dazzling. How really entertaining a good puzzle, a little bit of mud and a pile of sticks can really be.   - Joe Staples That's exactly right. I agree completely. You know, the other thing for me, so getting to our cabin, you go through what's called the Heber Valley, which is this little old farming community, and then you go up into the mountains. And as I come down into that valley, I could physically feel the stress just kind of fall off of my shoulders. And I forget about everything that's good.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes There's a there's a particular power about familiar land, just that you revisit again and again. And I can think even this weekend we're going down to Bloomington, which was a meaningful place for me. I did graduate work down there. I gave birth to a young daughter who died shortly afterwards. But there was a lot of emotion that's tied up in that time. And there's a particular trail that I I ran and walked a lot during those years. And then I always make a point to come back to.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And there's something too I like I can feel it in my spirit, in my body of the familiar trees and bend in the path and the invitation that ushers me into to be tied to a story that's bigger than me to think like some of these trees, you know, they they came before me. They will outlast me. They're being sustained in much the same way that I am. And I I can hear that a little bit in your statement, like the the familiar land that evokes something in you as you're able to go to it.   - Joe Staples Yeah. Those things I think they build us. They they. They. Help us become who we are.   - Joe Staples We have pictures of my wife standing on the spot with nothing but trees and then a hole in the ground and then framing and then being all done. So, yeah, it's been it's been great. And then the other we do a family reunion there every year with all of our kids and grandkids. So those kind of memories just are important, as beautiful.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I would love for you to tell me a little bit about what your current role is in the work that you do.   - Joe Staples Yeah. So it's changed pretty dramatically in the last year. So I was a CMO, a chief marketing officer for the last 20 plus years. My career was all in the tech sector and now I spend all of my time advising other companies on their go to market strategy. And those companies range from little startups that are trying to figure out how to get to market and what their product should look like and how to message and position it to companies that have multibillion dollar valuations that are trying to better understand their brand and what they do.   - Joe Staples The thing that I like so much about it is that the work is super diverse. You know, I go from company to company and engage in these projects and to meet new people and see the struggles that they're going through and try and take the experiences that I've had and help them navigate where they're going well.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And what a two decade span to be in tech. There have been so many reinventions innovations and disruptive technologies within that space over the years that you've been working there. I'm sure that that has contributed to a really diverse toolkit of experiences at which to draw.   - Joe Staples Yeah, technology has changed dramatically, as you mentioned, but marketing has changed dramatically over that time. The way you approach and engage with customers or prospects is just night and day. Different than what it was twenty or twenty five years ago, and so the need to adapt to those things is is critical but also fun because there's there's always new things to learn.   One thing I really like to ask guests is when we talk about empathy and connection at work, what is a personal story for you that emphasizes the importance of empathy and connection specifically in the workplace?   - Joe Staples So I think, Liesel, I think as you think about all of this, it's important to recognize that the workplace isn't separate from our personal life, that those two are just intertwined and inseparable. And so, as I think about empathy, I think I learned that from my son, from one of our kids. We lived in Seattle for a number of years. And this particular son, I think, got picked on every single day that he went to junior high school.   - Joe Staples And, you know, it was not super evident as he went through it. But I think it was it certainly was impactful. And then we moved to Utah and he flourished here, you know, just found the right friends and and all of those kinds of things. But while he was he was probably a senior in high school. My wife and I met a woman who her grandson went to the same school as our son and. The things she told us is she said that her grandson told her that she could go, that he could go three weeks at school without a single person ever saying hello to him, engaging with them, talking to him.   - Joe Staples And she said, but the grandson told her that the one person that he always knew, if he passed in the hall or saw in a class that would say hello to him was our son. And, you know, I I thought about that and I thought, you know, what would our son have to have developed that that trait or understood that need if he wouldn't have gone through the challenges that he did earlier in junior high and and high school.   - Joe Staples But I also thought, you know, I'd take that over him being the star of the basketball team any day if he would develop that kind of character. So it was a really important lesson for me of the need to kind of look out for the the team member or the person that that may be struggling. But then obviously empathy expands well beyond someone who's struggling and really is just do you take an interest in other people to make connections with other people or are you just looking out for yourself and what will benefit you?   - Joe Staples And I think those distinctions are really, really important.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. If I could, I could feel a little bit of a catch in my throat, even as you said, because I one of my children, I have a son who is just on the precipice of middle school and has had a hard year with those dynamics of old school is rough. It is rough.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I feel when you said, like it's important to note that our work selves and our personal selves are there, not divisible. What I have observed is that that awareness signals a change in the workplace from when my parents probably were working or definitely my grandparents, where there is a sense of, you know, this is your home life, this is your work life, you really need to shut off that part of yourself in order to show up and get the job done.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Does that resonate with you? Do you feel like you have seen some of that movement in your lifetime of work in what is expected in a given office as to what you're allowed to bring to work?   - Joe Staples Yeah, really good point. I think you're right on. I think that today's workplace, it it's you're able to talk about those things in in a much more profound way or more ready way than you were you rewind a couple of decades ago where it really was a bit more separate and distinct. But I also think a lot of it has to do with the individual. You know, my my dad worked in in the corporate world his whole life and based on his personality, he was just very engaging.   - Joe Staples He still has those friendships that he had from, you know, 50 years ago that he developed at work. And I think a lot of that is how you approach your work. Do you see it as a task? You see it as a goal that needs to be accomplished, or do you see it as a collection of people who are engaged and connected together trying to accomplish something? And if you if you look at it through that people lens, I think I think everything changes.   - Joe Staples All of a sudden you're just naturally interested in the life of that other person and what they're going through and both positive and negative.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I think that's a great point of. The individual and what they bring to the table into a given work environment, I mean, even as some of the cultural expectations around the accessibility of these conversations have changed, I still find in the consulting work I do in the coaching that the companies that are most able to successfully implement a strategy for cultivating empathy. What that stems from is usually the executive team or champions within the organization who really like this is in line with their heartbeat.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And they say this is the kind of person I am. This is the kind of company culture I want to cultivate.   - Joe Staples Yeah, I think you're right. You know, the the culture needs to permeate throughout the company, but the tone gets set by that leadership team. They care about the people inside the business. Are they doing things to understand what those needs of those individuals are and then and then making changes to to help meet those needs? I'm reminded of a place that that one of our sons worked at a short time ago, and they had terrible health care benefits for for people who didn't live in the headquarters city.   - Joe Staples And even though it was brought up a number of times, the company just didn't didn't recognize it or or didn't care. So if if the message gets sent that what you care about isn't what I care about, then, you know, that's a that's a culture that will quickly understand that and good people will move on.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. The lack of receptivity and feeling hurt. Well, and I mean, especially with what we're recording July 2021, the current labor market dynamics really. I mean, there's always a cost to people leaving in recruitment, rehiring, reputational loss, but especially as people are clawing back to full staffing and being able to keep and retain people, it takes on an extra measure of urgency, like, are you keeping your people because they have choices and they can leave if the culture is not life giving.   - Joe Staples Agree? Yep, definitely agree. You know, just one other point on on empathy. I think sometimes it can be misunderstood. You know, our goal isn't to avoid disagreement in the workplace. The goal is we're going to disagree. How are we are we in a place? Do we have the kind of culture and connections and trust and empathy that allow us to go through those disagreements in good, healthy ways versus the counterproductive and toxic ways? And so I think that's where this culture of of empathy comes into play and really shows its worth   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. I, I, I talk with companies. They say you already have a de facto way of dealing with disruptive life events, of dealing with disagreements and in many places because because we don't actually train for this in our management programs, it's not a core of how we promote or analyze managers that, you know, people just have their bad habits or their personality, like default positions and ways of dealing with things that you know, that the way they work themselves out in practice as it becomes kind of.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Your your operating principles, do we shut down any disagreement? Do I shame someone for having a problem? You know, it's just getting in the way of productivity. And I found that a big, you know, part of getting to growth is being aware of those habits.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What is a time for you when building connection has felt really easy.   - Joe Staples You know, I I think it's I think, you know, it probably goes to. And this I hope this doesn't sound wrong, but kind of when you're when you're in the battle together, it's when the connections have happened. You know, a lot of companies today promote cooperation with with other companies. I'm a competitive person. So I I never had a problem picking a competitor and saying we're going to go take market share from from that company. We're going to build marketing plans and branding plans.   - Joe Staples And they're the they're the company that we think we can go succeed against and we can win against. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that kind of a competitive spirit. And so I've I've used that to our advantage. But I think that when your team then feels that, then all of a sudden they're not looking internally and saying, hey, that you're the enemy. They're looking externally and saying, we've got this other company that we're competing with and we're going to we're going to win against them.   - Joe Staples Sometimes I think businesses can confuse some of these softer skills with being overall soft, and I think they can coexist. I think that you can use trust and empathy and connection internally, but externally use competitive juices to your advantage.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I read a turn of phrase that rang true recently. It was saying instead of calling them soft skills, we should call them human skills because that's much more representative of what they are and how they serve us in the very, very good.   - Joe Staples You know, one other thing that that's interesting to me is how much time people invest in their their trade skills. So I'm a marketer and, you know, I'm just surrounded by marketing people who are trying to learn account based marketing and new digital marketing skills and search engine optimization skills. And then you look at how much time are you investing in? Let's call them human skills, leadership skills. And they look at you like. None, right? And those two don't they just don't match up because as I look at my own career and I think really the career of most executives, it's it's much more based on leadership skills than it is on how good of a marketer I am.   - Joe Staples There's lots of people that are way better marketers than I am that I didn't didn't ever get to a C level position. So how they think they would get there without investing time into those skills doesn't make any sense.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I was just interviewing a CEO of a growing tech company and he was talking about his how his education framed him for some of what he's doing. And he studied both psychology and finance as an undergrad. And he said, you know, people people are always thinking that I lean into my finance skills a lot in the role that I have. And he said psychology always wins. You know, it's it's the people skills. It's knowing how to get the most out of a team and knowing who to promote and when.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes It's knowing who needs a break and who needs like a rousing, encouraging speech at that moment. And I like that just turn of phrase. Psychology always wins.   - Joe Staples Yeah, and I, I don't think it gets taught certainly doesn't get taught at a university. And even when people start into their positions, nobody's really you know, the CMO isn't taking the junior marketer and saying, you know, let's let's talk about your leadership skills and in your human skills. Instead, they're taking them and saying, OK, you know, do you understand how to do this part of of your job? And it's much more of those technical skills.   - Joe Staples Right. And that's I think that's one of the problems that people have when they continue to try and have their career progress. They hit a ceiling. And it really is not because they're not good marketers or finance people or salespeople. It's because they haven't developed the leadership skills. And that's that's the value that they're going to bring.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So it it doesn't happen in a formal way the way it could or should this equipping and human skills. How did you find throughout the course of your career that you continued to skill up in these important capacities?   - Joe Staples Yeah, for me, it was because I was so interested in it. You know, if I if I had if I had the choice to read a book on the latest marketing skill or read a book on the leadership perspectives, I would always pick the latter. So it just came really natural for me just because of interest. So I in January of this year, I went back to school. I'm going to get a graduate degree in organizational leadership from Arizona State University.   Joe Staples Most people look at me and go, no, what not? How come you're doing this? Because it's a commitment and takes time and costs money and all those kinds of things. But it is fascinating to me. And, you know, so I look at it and and say the the more I can understand leadership and and how to motivate people and how to engage with people, the the better I'm going to be at mentoring others and teaching those skills.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Absolutely. Well, in that posture of lifelong learning, it serves us in our homes and our relationships as we are members of a community and as we're members of a workplace.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to the interview with Joe in just a moment, but I want to take a second to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  As we said at the top of the episode, human skills are essential to business.  Especially during the tumult and labor shortage of 2021, building connections of care is a competitive advantage.  If you want to skill-up in empathy, Handle with Care Consulting has an offering to fit your needs.  From keynote sessions to certificate programs to executive coaching, let us help you engage you people and show care when it matters most.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What are some times for you we're building connection has felt really hard. And then as a follow up, how you still pressed into the messiness and importance of building connection anyway.   - Joe Staples Yeah, I, I think when it's hard is when it's forced, when it feels forced and. You know a lot, just about every company that that I engage with, they do some form of. Team building, and I'm not a big fan of it, I you know, I and I think the the reality of this set in for me, what would it be? Probably 15 years ago, I decided that this will be great. We will have for my team.   - Joe Staples We're going to do a pretty large team. We'll do a team softball game, and then we'll have a barbecue after. And again, I love softball. So error number one was I took what I wanted to do and now projected that on 30 other people and said, here's here's what we're going to do. And we played this game and it was evident that there were some people there that had never. Played softball in their life, but with the three week notice that I gave them, my guess is they actually practiced to try and not look terrible, terrible, terrible, but they would rather have gone to the dentist and play this softball game.   - Joe Staples I mean, it was just painful to them. And I can remember being at this game and looking and thinking, what have I done? Look what I just put these people through in an attempt to build team dynamics and help them feel more a part of the team. I have just done the exact opposite of that. And so from from that point on, I've really tried to shy away from from these team building activities where it's a force fit and you got to come.   - Joe Staples The one team building event that I still love and that I still think works is so simple and it is eating together. Everybody has to eat and you go to any restaurant and you can find something that you love. And what it does is now all of a sudden you're actually getting to know each other. A softball game analogy. You know, the person on third base doesn't get to talk to the person in right field. You're not developing any connection that way.   - Joe Staples But sit next to somebody at a dinner that you didn't know or a lunch that you didn't know before. And all of a sudden you found out that you went to the same school as you did, or he has the same number of kids that you do that are the same ages. And or even better, he's going he or she is going through some of the same problems you're going through now. You can create some connections.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, well, the again, the shared experience of eating and providing the space for conversation that isn't just about tasks to be accomplished. I like that. How what what are like some micro practices that you either formally instituted for yourself or just started doing regularly within the office as a leader to make sure that you stayed connected to your team and especially team members, that maybe you naturally didn't have as many affinity points with.   - Joe Staples Yeah, so the team members that work directly for me, I always found that was quite a bit easier. The the challenge was, you know, if I had an organization of one hundred people and I was trying to to lead this entire organization, there may be three or four levels between me and that other person. How do I develop some of some of those connections? So I again, going back to my meal, they didn't think that I, I eat a lot.   - Joe Staples That's not the point. Right. I would set up monthly lunches with newer team members. So it may be your. First day or it may be your third week, but you're you're a newer team member and we usually have eight or nine people in in the lunch and it accomplished two things. One is I got to know them, but they got to know each other because, you know, they may be working on on different teams. And so I always I always felt that that was useful when the other one that we did, I worked for a company called Novell in kind of the heyday of of the tech scene for them anyway.   - Joe Staples And we did something that was where we took executives and had them work on Frontalot in front line jobs, customer service jobs for a day. Yeah, it wasn't really long, but I, I still have a picture of of the the general counsel for for the company, very senior leader on the phone, taken from our service complaint calls. And you think about empathy, they came away from that, recognizing that this these jobs aren't that easy. Right.   - Joe Staples And number two, I certainly couldn't couldn't do it. And now all of a sudden, they thought about what those jobs were a bit differently.   - Joe Staples One of the other practices that I did for a number of years is once a year I would go work a really small trade show where we had a little bitty booth by 10 booth, because for the event staff, that was the worst. An event that you go to where you have a big, you know, 30 by 30 booth and you have speaking engagements.   - Joe Staples That's fun and exciting in the back corner of the of the trade show floor in this little booth. And you're trying to get people to talk to you. So once a year, I would sign up and I would go work those booths just to remind myself what the people on that event staff did and how hard it was. It was it kept me kept me aware   – Liesel Mindrebo Mertes If you had like a magic wand that you could wave to give them an awareness about empathy or a new sort of perspective, what what capacity would you give them or what words of wisdom would you want to impart for them to take away?   - Joe Staples My experience is people love to be challenged. They may not say that. They may think, no, I'd rather just kind of sit here and do my job and go home every day and and do the other things that I love to do. But people love to have somebody show confidence enough in them to come to them and say, hey, we have this brand new project. Even if you say, I don't I don't think you even know much about it, but I want you to learn and I want you to lead it.   - Joe Staples And I think that just causes people to rise to the occasion,   – Joe Staples I think it works when you have a star performer and when you have a a poor performer, because I think even with a poor performer, you can come to them and say, you know what, I can see that you're struggling in this area. I believe you can do this. So let's talk about what that means. And, you know, why are you struggling and what can I do to help you?   - Joe Staples Those are the kinds of connections that cause people to go, wow, like you really you really do care about me and want me to succeed. And then together, you figure that out if if the person because most of the time the employee knows they're struggling. You're not telling them anything they don't know. But if they feel that you want to help them not struggle, that's so different. Then I'm struggling and you don't really care. The only thing you care is that the work isn't getting done or our results are not where they should be.   - Joe Staples You only care about the results. You don't care about me. You just sent a very different message. Wouldn't you sit down with that person and say, look, let's talk about why you're having a tough time with this, because I really think you can do this. This is right. This is you're capable of this.   -  Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. Simon Sinek talks about, you know, he had like a little micro training video module, but he talked about the importance of both empathy and curiosity of a manager at that moment. And it's a different way of phrasing some of what you said to to sit down. And it's you know, it is in one part about the numbers or the metrics or the performance, but it's also that measure of curiosity, of saying there's probably more of a story that's going on right now.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And, you know, can we can we engage at that level that can really signal something powerful.   - Joe Staples Right. And if you don't have that conversation, you may never know that. Yeah, I'm just distracted because, you know, two months ago, my dad was diagnosed with with cancer, just struggling to keep my. Wits about me, right? You never know that if you don't engage and have those conversations.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, it can make you draw all of those sideways conclusions. Is this person just lazy or unmotivated or are they looking at job somewhere else and function off of those unvalidated assumptions? They can really lead us away when it could be exactly what you said. You know, I'm I'm really distracted because my dad's been in the hospital for the last three months, and that's hard.   - Joe Staples Yeah. You know, the other thing I'd love to hear your perspective. The the connection between empathy and trust, I think is is pretty fascinating.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I it's interesting because as I as I train companies, as I coach different teams, there's some people that they they love this movement towards empathy and connection in the workplace. And, you know, it's it's close to their heart beat. They want more of it. And then, you know, I definitely interact with people that it feels like just one more demand, like somebody need me to be their counselor. And do you know all of these, like, large assumptions about what it's going to take from them to have to get into more of the human side of interacting with their people?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And one thing that I talk about is, you know, those those moments where you're getting more of the story, where someone is sharing both, you know, a really good thing that's happened, you know, a new baby, those a new marriage, the celebrations and also some of the hard stuff, you know, my my child is really sick and we don't know what the test results are going to be, that those moments, even moments a little bit like what you said, moments of that can feel like confrontation.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes “You know, you're you're not cultivating a place where it is safe for me to express who I am as a Black woman.” You know, those those moments that can feel hard. They're actually depending on how you navigate them. They are invitations to much deeper connection, you know, that like vulnerability as we can move into those places with better habits, better ways of connecting. It's a tremendous moment for trust. And trust is the foundation. Google did this widespread study of what is the defining characteristic of high performing teams and what they came away.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes You know, they're they're finding was the number one characteristic was psychological safety people where they felt like they could bring their humanness there. And whether you term it psychological safety or trust, you know, that's the place where you can have true like creativity and innovation and people who say, you know what, through the ups and downs, I want to stay with this company because they see me. And so that connection between empathy and trust and what can flourish out of that, I really encourage people to see see these moments as opportunities to really cultivate some beautiful things within your organization.   - Joe Staples Wow. Whoa. Really well said. I think you make a number of great points there. And, you know, the the more sincere somebody can be in that caring and concern and understanding, the better it is. Absolutely. The employees definitely recognize when it's when it's forced. You know, when I come and I say, how are you? I know you and you tell me you're terrible. And I go, Yeah, that's too bad. You know, that goes OK.   - Joe Staples So results of the and you kind of jump over there they go. You don't really care about me, right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I am. I view people as on a continuum of this skill set because it is a skill set and everybody can get better. There's some people who are naturally much better at it. But occasionally I use the illustration of bowling like I in my training. I'm going to give you a tip like you don't want to end up in the gutter. And there are some things that we instinctually do. Well, just it's it's always darkest before the you know, these tired cliches are just telling people to buck up and that are really going to be off-putting.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So let's make sure you don't do those things. And then, you know, even even if it feels like a little bit of going through the motions at first, you know, hopefully as you as you build and you see that connection and you get better and you get more comfortable within the skill set, just like anything, you know, whether it's training in a new capacity with technological platform or training for a new skill in our bodies. You know, when I start shooting layups, I'm not super good at it when I start learning.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes But the more I do it, the better I can get. And empathy is like that. What we're moving towards is like sincere, wholehearted engagement. But even if we just start with you not saying the same stupid stuff that you used to say and asking how they're doing and then pausing because, you know, you're supposed to pause and nodding because, you know, you're supposed to not like that.   - Joe Staples Still not having softball team building activity.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. You know, we're all learning along the way   - Joe Staples But but the summary point to what you're saying here is for anybody listening, you can learn empathy. It's not something that somebody should go. You know, I'm not an empathetic. So I'm just going to stay the way I am.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes That's not true. You can learn the skill of being empathetic.   - Joe Staples These are skills worth working on. These are things that every middle manager, executive and team member should invest in. Is these human skills, these leadership skills. Yes. You've got trade skills that you need to keep current with.   - Joe Staples But to to have a fulfilling career, to have a career that you enjoy is really about can you have an impact on other people? I mean, this isn't about us as much. It is as it is about. Can I be the person that, you know, 15 years from now, somebody looks back and says, and I hope I loved it at that company because I worked with so-and-so or because I was managed by so-and-so. And I those people interactions are they're just so important.   - Joe Staples And if they're that important, we should invest in learning how to be the best that we can at them.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Couldn't agree more. Thank you, Joe.   - Joe Staples Thank you, this was a lot of fun.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Joe…   Be purposeful and inclusive with the sort of team-building activities that you choose.Softball lets people feeling “out” while eating together truly brought people together.  Joe made a point to create connection over a shared meal, both with his teammates and also with new hires through monthly lunches.  How can food or a similarly inclusive activity bring your people together? What are you doing to “skill-up” your human skills?Does this desire show up in what you are reading or thinking about in the course of a given month?  Joe is a lifelong learner, when he had a chance to read or engage in personal development, he was consistently choosing books and degree programs that emphasized understanding the person, because he found that this was the capacity that differentiated true leaders within the workplace.  What is your long-term goal at work?Are your metrics of success comprised mostly of financial goals or power designations?  Joe talked about his father, who cared deeply about connection and had business friendships that stretched over 50 years.  This has shaped his own trajectory and goal.  So here is his question, as a closing thought, will you be the person that,15 years from now, somebody looks back and says, and “I loved it at that company because I worked with her or because she managed me?”    OUTRO

- Tegan Trovato There's an awakening happening in corporations and people are now choosing their jobs based on values. And that will force organizations who aren't already inclined to that thinking to really start rethinking their approach to caring for their people and the beautiful thing.   NEW INTRO   Today, we talk about the awakening that is happening in the workforce as a result of COVID, change, and choice.  How workers are choosing jobs based on values and what top leaders are doing to welcome and nurture the whole person at work.    And I am excited to have both a colleague and a friend on the show as a guest:  Tegan Trovato is the Founder of Bright Arrow, a premiere Executive and Team Coaching firm supporting clients nationally.   Tegan is an HR industry veteran specializing in Talent Acquisition, Talent Development, and Organizational Learning. She has served as an executive or leadership team member for companies like Levi Strauss, Zynga, Xerox and Cielo.   At Bright Arrow, she and her team offer executive coaching, leadership team coaching, and group workshops. All of Bright Arrow's coaches value authenticity, confidence, courage, growth, and leadership and make these values a priority in every interaction.   Tegan is also the is wife to Brian (a fellow entrepreneur), mommy to Athena (who is really, really bute), and mom to her two fur babies - senior kitties Pascal and Dedier (pronounced D.D.A).   She loves nature and we began our conversation hearing about her recent break from work here in the Indiana summer.      - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I would love to hear some of your favorite things that you've gotten a chance to do on your staycation so far.   - Tegan Trovato Oh, you know, just being outside and my husband and Athena and I all being together as a family is everything, because with the pandemic, we still don't have child care yet. We do have someone starting soon. But we've just been like ships passing in the night, just handing Athena off for for one of us, one entrepreneur to have a meeting and the other one goes and takes care of her and then we switch off again throughout the day.   - Tegan Trovato So just being together has been and I don't even know what the word is, heart filling.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Have you have you gotten a chance to eat some good food? Are you finding your being outside a lot? It's been raining and muggy that you know,   - Tegan Trovato That doesn't stop us. I'm from the South, from the real South where it is always rainy and muggy and we just go do your thing anyway. So, no, that hasn't stopped us. And there's been enough breaks in the rain and we've spent a ton of time. Yeah. Walking on the trail and jogging and setting up the little kiddie pool outside for her.   - Tegan Trovato So, yeah, that's been that's part of what nourishes me is being outside and and yes. Eating healthy food. So we always eat relatively healthy, but we've been doing a little more of the salads because we've had time and all that good stuff so.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, and who wants to be slaving over their oven or stovetop too much in the high heat of summer? The salad is a great option.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes One of the things I would love to talk with you about is how you've seen the need for empathy grow and change specifically over the last year and a half within your coaching practice. Give us a little bit of a 10000 foot view of what your typical client looks like.   - Tegan Trovato Hmm. Thank you for asking that. It does help set the stage a little bit for who is seeing what inside of the businesses and from where they're seeing this all unfold. Right. So the clients that we typically work with at Right Arrow are executives. So VPs and above inside the organization, they tend to be very driven, pretty holistic leaders, meaning they do want for their employees to feel good and be healthy and often at their own peril. Right.   - Tegan Trovato So they're not often not taking care of themselves and trying to pour out for others. The organizations they work for tend to be in either hypergrowth or undergoing major change.   - Tegan Trovato And that's often why we're brought in is to act as a support mechanism. And sometimes when it's a hypergrowth situation to help the leaders stay on track with the organization's growth so that as the leaders that got the company to where it is, they may also be the leaders that get them to the next growth level.   - Tegan Trovato Right. Everyone has to grow in tandem with the organization itself. So so we tend to be working with leaders that have been working really hard already. And now with the pandemic, it just folded in multiple other layers.   - Tegan Trovato On top of that,   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What is the biggest change that you experienced in in the presenting needs of your average client as a result of COVID? And granted, like every one story is not every story, but is there a common thread that runs through?   - Tegan Trovato There is a common thread. There's a few common threads that run through. And I have a lot of thoughts on this. So don't make me wonder too, too far afield. But there's a few things that come to mind when you ask that question. I think, one, the first thing we're seeing is that everything that existed before the pandemic was magnified. Right. So anything that was already a little out of balance was certainly out of balance during the pandemic.   - Tegan Trovato And so that's a major change we saw in some of those things are not having great boundaries when working at home. You know, we worked with a lot of leadership teams that were already distributed across the U.S. and working from home.   - Tegan Trovato So that became magnified, not having great access or balance when it comes to time with family because they're feeling overstretched at work. That became magnified.   - Tegan Trovato What is newer is the need for attentiveness to the humanness of the employee population, so great leaders already had some sense of wanting to care for their people.   - Tegan Trovato And I would say that characterizes the leaders we work with. What changed, though, is that we we entered into this collective suffering together during the pandemic.   - Tegan Trovato So we went from as leaders needing to care for people in pockets of intensity, right, so an employee's parent may pass away or their child, you know, an employee's child might be struggling with something at home and a leader could offer up a little extra care in those times. What changed during the pandemic is that the leaders themselves were suffering in tandem with their employee population and suffering, meaning we're not sure how to balance everything.   - Tegan Trovato We're not sure if it's safe to go out in public, to go to work, to vaccinate our children, to not vaccinate don't vaccinate ourselves, to not vaccinate ourselves. Right. I mean, you name it, that list is so extensive.   - Tegan Trovato And in the meantime, also trying to a lot of employees and leaders trying to manage their children's schooling while also working and selling and managing new product launches. I mean, it was just exponentially difficult. And so that led to suffering.   - Tegan Trovato It's leading to exhaustion. And so I think that it's while it's tough that everyone was sort of suffering together, it has also created this really amazing opportunity to feel more connected than ever before because we share that suffering.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I appreciate the emphasis on the opportunity for connection that is possible, because I think sometimes when we talk about providing support for the humanness of the workplace for a certain type of leader or manager, that feels like one more ask. Like, I can't believe that you're asking me to have to do that to, you know, to be somebody is like there's all sorts of ways that derisive sentiment can be expressed, like to be somebody's counselor or their nursemaid or their mom.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes It can be couched very much in the negative. What is this going to take from me or for me, instead of seeing it as really such a deep potential for connection and trust and the, you know, trust, vulnerability, connection, that's the foundation for creativity, for innovation, for thriving cultures that people don't want to leave.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And if we're only experiencing that moment as a pain point, it's going to cause us to want to, like, hold back, you know, not fully engage instead of be like, no, this is these are the deep waters that lead to all that good stuff that we want to write about in our Harvard business reviews.   - Tegan Trovato That's right. Well, you know, a colleague of mine, Sarah Martin of Welcoa, that's their organization, helps to create workplace wellness. So they work with companies of all sizes to create wellness programming, essentially, and whole employees. She and I were talking the other day and she said, you know, what is about to happen? And most of their clients know this. What's about to happen is that the future workforce over the next year plus is going to ask during their interview process, what did you do during the pandemic to take care of your employees?   - Tegan Trovato Mm hmm. It's now going to be a screening question, right. For, you know, do I even want to work here?   - Tegan Trovato So to your point, there used to be an option. I think it used to feel much more optional for leaders to say, OK, that's too far. I don't want to have to do that much caring or that being that concerned with someone's personal well-being. I think that it became less of an option through the pandemic.   - Tegan Trovato And now the question is how optional do we want to make it again when we go back to sort of business as usual air quotes. Right, right. So we're in a really interesting time when it comes to that and. You know, and I do want to say I think only other leaders will ever understand how hard it is to lead. And to lead well, and I get why a lot of not a lot, but a good percentage of leaders will say, no, that's not my job, making sure someone feels good at work.   - Tegan Trovato It's not my job that's up to them. And some of that is totally true. It really is up to us also as employees to want to feel good and to experience the goodness around us. It's a mindset thing, right? But that's only a part of it. So I get why leaders feel taxed in that, but it's really no longer optional. So I think the future leader profile looks very different going forward than we're used to.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I would love to hear some of the things that you found when you are confronted in your coaching practice with some of that that resistance is is this my job? Is this what I need to do? What have you found has been most effective in guiding those conversations and those people to their own journey of meaningful growth in these leadership capacities?   - Tegan Trovato What a great question. It's a resistance was a key word in your question. And, you know, I always like to say and it's a common, common knowledge, maybe more for coaches than in the rest of the world. But impatient resistance, rather, is either fear, impatience or ego.   - Tegan Trovato Those are the three causes of resistance. So when I feel someone resisting the call of their employee population for support, whatever that may look like is a big bucket right now.   - Tegan Trovato We'll explore which one of those things it might be. And most often it is a little bit of impatience. I can't do it that fast or that much. It's very seldom ego right now, it's truly very seldom ego. It is most often fear based. When we really get down to the core of it, executives, leaders really of every level are afraid they're not going to get it right.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Hmm.   - Tegan Trovato And if we really peel this all the way back, Liesel, most of us could say we aren't perfect at this at home. I would say that I am you know, I'm still always growing and how I emotionally show up in my household. And so if we don't feel like we've nailed it at home and most of us wouldn't dare say that, right. I'm 100 percent awesome at my emotional management and and taking emotional cues and tending to the people around me.   - Tegan Trovato I'm awesome. So we can't say that at home then. We certainly wouldn't probably venture to say we're nailing that at work and leaders strive to be great. It's part of why they're in their seat. They want to be good at what they do. And so I think when it comes down to empathy at work, tending to that human factor at work, it's a big, messy piece of work. And leaders, most of us kind of are humble in that we know we're not maybe one hundred percent at that yet and we'll never be you.   - Tegan Trovato And I know that right will never be 100 percent. But I think it's fear that keeps writers from feeling super inclined to saying, yes, yes, yes, on the front of just taking care of the human needs of employees.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. Well, and I hear within that also the dimensions of, you know, when we talk about our home lives or just our personal spheres of how we support people or receive support so many times, that's so informed by our own personally contextualized experience. You know, what were the expectations of my household of origin and how, you know, emotion was expressed or not was I told all the time that big boys don't cry or to stop whining or the context that sometimes I hear within the coaching I do of, you know, people who were vulnerable when they were 19 years old and their first relationship.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And they felt so burned and exposed and they made this this agreement like, I'm never going to go there again.   - Tegan Trovato Yes.   - Tegan Trovato And I love that you brought up this personalization of that employee experience as a leader. That's so important. And we talk about this now when we are, you know, kind of behind the scenes discussing diversity, equity, inclusion, like my coaches and I just had a whole, like, focus session on this to try to think about what tools we need, what education materials, what we just want to be ready to provide clients who are venturing into that, you know, trying to be more inclusive leaders.   - Tegan Trovato And one of the things we kept landing on was for a leader to be ready to fully show up for their employee population. They had to they have to have personalized the experiences their employees are having. And what I mean by that is, you know, you and I may not be able to identify with the exact same stories, but if we can identify with the human feeling we may be having at work and personalize that, somehow we feel much more inclined to support.   - Tegan Trovato So, for example, just to characterize this, there was a study done that demonstrated that CEOs who have diversity, equity, inclusion on their agenda as executives, a high percentage of them have daughters. Hmm. So they they're able to personalize the need for inclusive at work because they can imagine their own daughter at work, not not getting equal pay, not getting the promotion, not being heard in a meeting, you name it. And that is true across all of our initiatives at work when it comes to this human engagement.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I resonate with that deeply. I would love to hear what is it time that you have found yourself needing to engage with that sort of capacity for imagination and personalization in an encounter where you're like, I, I need to extend myself to to connect here?   - Tegan Trovato Mm hmm. I'll give you a really current one. You know, I will say we have several coaches that are in community right now. And what I mean by that is, you know, we have. You know, about a dozen or so coaches who will work with our clients, at Bright Arrow, and I've been really deliberate about making sure that our coach population is very diverse and that our clients then get to meet with a diverse slate of coaches, which will bring different perspectives from their own.   - Tegan Trovato I mean, there's just a ton of rich reasons why this is important, and I just scratch the surface of those tons of reasons. But in a meeting we had my coaches and I get together once a month for some community and continuing education. One of our coaches was talking about an inclusive party training that he had created, and he is a Black coach who felt very impassioned by this. And he built this gorgeous program and then has not launched it.   - Tegan Trovato And when I sit in my chair, I'm going, I build a program, you sure as hell believe I'm going to launch it, right? I put all that time into it, all that hard, all the intellectual energy, and it's going to launch. But where his path was different is that he's also dealing with all the traumas he's experienced as a Black leader in corporate America. He's inspired by having to carry extra weight. That's not his as a black man in a white world.   - Tegan Trovato So when it came time for him to launch this program, he had already wrung out his soul and had to relive all of his own personal in preparation to then facilitate rooms full of white people and help them understand their role in creating inclusive leadership. And I don't even as I'm telling the story, I recognize I don't even have all the right language to intimate what this man is feeling. And so it was my it has been and continues to be my job to be aware of that lack of full understanding, but try really hard to understand even better and to do what I can to support him as he launches that.   - Tegan Trovato Now, all of the coaches are already decided we are all coming together. We're going to help him get what he needs in terms of support so we can lift this program because it's gorgeous. It's an amazing program. But I think that's a very recent example for me of. Really having to stretch my own understanding, right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, and if you had not engaged in that process, if you had only been looking through, you know, wow, what would keep me from launching a program? You know, I I'm not lazy. I would launch this program, you know, did he just run out of there all kinds of ways that you could backfill the answer with assumptions about him or reasons why that wouldn't be true and that would really like distract you. And so that important pause to not and, you know, we're so often making those like intuitive leaps to backfill and how empathy ask for a little bit more of a pause and some humility of saying, oh, yeah, my my life experience is different.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes My answer might not be congruent with what's really going on here.   - Tegan Trovato Yes. And a key to that. And you just prompted this. Ah, thank you. I didn't assume any of that back story I had. I asked. Right. So he shared that it was reliving trauma. He shared the exhaustion he was feeling. Wow. The assumptions I could have made and filled story in. They're right because and this is exemplified by well, if I built a program, I would just launch the thing. Right. That would be such an asinine place from which to fill in the details for this man.   - Tegan Trovato So the key was we were in community. We were curious. We had zero judgment. We worked hard to take his perspective and understand his lived experience. And with that comes a whole lot of needing to be humble. Right, and not making those assumptions. So thanks for prompting that very important detail about how we arrived at his story together.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I would love to hear I'm struck that in your role as a coach. It's it's different than being a manager. It's both like coming alongside sometimes, you know, leading a little ahead. But what have been some of the most important skills of connection and empathy that you have felt you needed to grow in in the last year and a half for myself?   - Tegan Trovato Yes. Mm hmm. Actually, you know, empathy was one of them. And I took your training because of that,   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Which you were such a pleasant participant. Why, thank you. Thank you for trying to do my part. Yes.   - Tegan Trovato But, you know, it's funny because I would say as a coach, if we're worth our weight in salt, we probably have rather advanced empathy skills from the from the average person. Right. Because we have to be in our empathy with clients and compassion in order to make the space they need to figure out their story.   - Tegan Trovato Right. So we have to take their perspective, practice, non-judgment, recognize when they're experiencing emotion   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And a judgy coach is a jerk.   - Tegan Trovato Oh, you should fire them ASAP, but also not just recognizing their own emotion, but helping them learn to communicate it if they need that help and vice versa, communicating what comes up for us as we experience their story.   - Tegan Trovato However, what I knew was going into this pandemic, what we were in the middle of it, I think when I took your training, I was curious if my concerns myself concept of empathy was really right or not right. So I had never taken a class on empathy.   - Tegan Trovato I've read about the core emotion of it. So I think that that was a place I went. I think empathy and compassion were to places where I went deeper. So empathy is that recognizing emotion and trying to take other's perspective. This is for listeners. I know you know this, but compassion.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes No, I like it. Keep going.   - Tegan Trovato Compassion is also empathy sort of can be a foundation of that. Compassion is then taking action to try to alleviate the suffering of others. And I think that my my practice over this past year and ongoing is recognizing when to exercise one over the other and how to do it. Well.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And tell me more.   - Tegan Trovato I think what I learned, I'll just share a little about what I learned in your course, which I thought was really helpful, is first just being very careful with the empathy space not to bring our own story in when someone's suffering, which is a really tempting right. For instance. I lost both of my parents have passed, and I'm pretty young for that to have happened. And both of them died rather tragically. And when I experienced someone else going through that, do you know how tempting it is?   - Tegan Trovato I know what you're going through. I lost my parents, too. And and then once you start down that path, details want to start spilling out. Right. That is not helpful when someone really needs empathy. And I think that that is certainly not something I would ever do in my coaching practice, but in my personal life, that could easily I could easily say that would be a tendency I would have had. And so going deeper on that level of practicing empathy and really making it a hundred percent about the other person.   - Tegan Trovato Was a tune up for me, like that was a level up the compassion piece, the reason there's growth there for me and maybe for others is that we can feel compassion and wish for their suffering to end.   - Tegan Trovato But it cannot be our responsibility that we're always taking action for everyone. Right. That leads to compassion fatigue and the beauty of me being on that journey, as I can then see that going on for the leaders I'm in community with or coaching, because that that was very much what was happening through the pandemic as executives and leaders were just they were just running around with buckets of water, trying to put out all the fires.   - Tegan Trovato And meanwhile, they had their own stuff they needed to attend to as humans through this rather traumatic time everyone's in. And so there it was easier for me because I'm in the middle of that work to have conversations with them about, like, OK. Which pieces can you have compassion for and wish for the ending of suffering, but know that it may not be your job to take action, right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah. I appreciate you sharing in that journey of discovery. And, you know, it's ongoing and the very real pressures of compassion, fatigue of where do I need to take action? Where do I need to actually claim my rest in this space? Because there's a little bit of a lie that gets perpetuated in in leadership, in dimensions of capitalism, the sense of like we have to be always active and always producing and always caring.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And, and another phrase that I've I've been using lately that has found traction is change fatigue, especially as we are, you know, stop start, two steps forward, one step back out of the pandemic is there's a lot of organizational change that's going on that people are suddenly having to absorb, pivot within, decide if they're going with it or making a stand against it.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes And that's that's its own additional layer on top of what can make it difficult to show up in ways that really manifest our values.   - Tegan Trovato Absolutely. And that's a good example of something that's been happening in organizations before the pandemic that's been magnified. Right, right.   - Tegan Trovato Change fatigue is very much I mean, it could just be the tagline for corporate America. We're always the only thing that's the same as everything changes. I mean, there's all kinds of one liners about this. And yes, it is on steroids right now. It absolutely is.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Sometimes I get a question that I'd love to have your thoughts on, because I imagine that you're equipping your clients with guidance in this, which is OK. I am not the top leader at my organization, but I really do want to see more empathy, more of a culture of care. How do I move that conversation along? How do I, within the constraints of my position, like become an advocate for the change I want to see?   - Tegan Trovato Oh, I love this question so much. What immediately came up for me is the first opportunity for leaders at any level is to embody empathy within your own leadership station first. So work hard to sort of become the poster child of an empathetic leader and and through that, it's not from a place of ego, it's from a place of practice, because empathy is a practice. It's an emotion, but it's also a practice. And so I think when leaders can just kind of get their own backyard straightened out first, it creates the credibility that's helpful to lead that further, that language or that narrative further in the organization.   - Tegan Trovato Now, you don't like let's not wait for perfect because perfect doesn't exist. Right. So be measured in what you think you need to do before you have that conversation. But I think that's the first piece.   - Tegan Trovato I think the second piece that's important is there is a lot of research out there now which if you follow Liesel, you will see a lot of this in her work that demonstrates the business impact of empathy at work. And, and it is, as leaders, always important that we can say, look, this will save us time or money or help us work better or produce faster, that's the truth.   - Tegan Trovato We need some of that included in our narrative that doesn't need to be the predominant part of our narrative, but it doesn't hurt if we want to grease the wheels to get our get the attention that that initiative would need to be able to also tie it to business outcomes.   - Tegan Trovato But also, I think the third thought that comes up for me here is that this is a great time to bring that up.   - Tegan Trovato We are on the heels of having lived something that proved the need for empathy and care at work. And employees are going to be asking in that interview question in the future, OK, what did your company do? Why should I work here? You take care of me if something happens in the world again, can I trust you?   - Tegan Trovato So I think even bringing up that question and helping your organization focus on what's coming, that also would help grease the wheels a little bit, right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I love the beginning point of embodying the change you want to see.   - Tegan Trovato I feel for the leaders who are trying to figure this out, because it is it can feel like a really big lift, but I am humbled, as I'm sure many of these leaders are, by the fact that we are in the midst of something really wonderful happening, I think. I really do.   - Tegan Trovato There's an awakening happening in corporations and people are now choosing their jobs based on values. And that will force organizations who aren't already inclined to that thinking to really start rethinking their approach to caring for their people and the beautiful thing.   - Tegan Trovato So that's part of why I say it's time. Now is a great time for you to get brave and and just start asking, you know, the questions that are empowering to your organization. Like, what can it look like if we did better at X or Y, we could do better at X? Or could I take the lead on putting putting together a focus group on the topic of caring for employees with H.R. right now is a great time to to put your hand up for that stuff.   - Tegan Trovato So.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Right. Well, and again, I love coming back to the focus on the the positive accrual that can come out of this.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Do you have a story or two that you can share in some of the clients you've worked with who have been on their own growth journey where they've come back and been like, wow, you know, this is this is how my team has changed. This is how I've grown that I feel like success and progress stories as a result of growing in these capacities?   - Tegan Trovato This awesome leader who is he's a super people developer. I've been working with him for years and just kind of watched him rise through the ranks of his executive space. And he, like many people, transitioned out of his individual contributor role where he was a rock star at his job.   - Tegan Trovato And then all of a sudden, like most of us, got dropped into a leadership role with 20 people. All of a sudden he was managing and no education in between. This is most leaders story, right? You're great at your job. And then you're going to manage a bunch of people, you know, good luck. Yeah. So his struggle was, why don't people just see what I see? Like, why won't they just do what I say?   - Tegan Trovato And there was this new learning.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Sounds like the parental struggle as well. Why would I stay the course?   - Tegan Trovato And it is actually very much a parallel. But there is this level of again, it's trust building. It's just giving people the tools they need to do their best work. And when he was able to pivot from telling to asking. The right questions, everything started to flow for him, and that's part of the human element, too, right, of just caring about the fact that people are getting stuck because, again, they're either afraid or there's not enough trust.   - Tegan Trovato And that comes back to relationship. And just OK, intellectually, if you believe in your team and they're not moving, there's something underneath that and that's usually relationship oriented.   - Tegan Trovato And there were definitely times earlier in that work where I was not at all thinking about relationship because for me the work was rewarding. So of course, everyone else would just be rewarded by getting in there, doing the work right. No, that's not how it works. These are where humans, right, and so I, of course, wasn't tending to my own human needs in that process and by proxy wasn't tending to the needs of others.   MUSICAL TRANSITION I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, my company, Handle with Care Consulting.  Cultivating care, building empathy, valuing the whole person at work is essential work that has never been more important.  Let Handle with Care Consulting help you skill up in empathy.  With keynotes, empathy in leadership certificate programs, and coaching options, we have what it takes for you to grow in care.  Come and journey with us to building up empathy at work.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes If you could wave a magic wand and for all the leaders you work with, get them to like and at a deep, like, bone, soulish level, understand or like have an understanding or change behavior, whatever connects.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes What would you say is just essential across the board. Hmm.   - Tegan Trovato I'll lead with the headline and then I'll unpack it a little bit, what came to mind for me was if we could just start caring for each other at work the way we care for family. We would be on a completely different track really fast. And. The reason I think that's becoming possible and necessary is we spent, I don't know, the last 15 years talking about work life balance and then it became work life integration and then it became, I don't want to talk about it.   - Tegan Trovato Right. People, people, people's reactions to that idea are so triggering because it is so hard to tell where the boundaries and lines are now. Work has just permeated our personal lives and vice versa. We're having to fit our personal lives in around work, doctors appointments, soccer games, weekend stuff. I mean, you name it. I think the truth is that there is very little separation now, but intellectually, we're still trying to tell ourselves that it must be separate.   - Tegan Trovato So I think that we're still working on getting clear on the fact that this is what it is now like work and life out of fabric, they're so interwoven and so behaving with our co-workers, like their health, well-being, emotional existence isn't part of our job is amiss. Right?   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, or like its just an inconvenience that gets in the way of work.   - Tegan Trovato Yeah. Or just thinking we still have an excuse to be like, no, it's work. Well, yeah, no, that's outmoded. That's actually not true anymore. Yeah.   - Tegan Trovato So I think that there is a really beautiful opportunity right now for us to just, you know, stop being so worried about overstepping and in learning to offer care and making it an option for people to take advantage. I wouldn't want to force ourselves on people, for goodness sakes.   - Tegan Trovato But, you know, when someone's struggling or you or you can tell they're having an emotional reaction, developing the skills we need to be a container is it's very much what's on the horizon.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Yeah, I love that. Is there any question that you wish I would have asked you that I didn't ask you?   - Tegan Trovato You know, I think there's a question around my personal experience with empathy and why. Why, what I've experienced that makes it matter to me yet, because let me let me ask you, I know that this as a personal connection for you and empathy and why it matters.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Tell me a little bit more.   - Tegan Trovato Years ago, before I started my practice, I went through my own personal trauma is the word I would use to describe it. So sparing all the details, I will say that I went from having a super career high moving across the country to accept this really exciting job, getting married. And the week of my marriage, my mother died tragically and unexpectedly and I had to go back to work within a couple of weeks, like all good corporate citizens have to do.   - Tegan Trovato And I was a mess. Well, you know, I thought I had it together and I was pouring myself into work as a coping mechanism, which was a habit of mine. But I wasn't doing OK, you know, and I was new in my job. I had just moved to another state halfway across the country. I didn't know anyone. So I had almost I have really had no support systems other than my poor husband, new husband, new marriage.   - Tegan Trovato So I think my experience of that was I found work to be such a cold place through that experience. And, you know, I was because of that, able to look back and question my own leadership over the years of how kind of leader was I before I struggled myself, when it came to caring for others who were going through really tough personal life circumstances. So. I you know, it's easy for me to look back and criticize the people I was working with and for and, you know, that lack of care, but really I found more empathy for them as I reflect.   - Tegan Trovato But that's because I've had to do my own thinking around. OK, what does it look like for leaders to do a better job then? And what do I need to develop in myself so that I'm living and demonstrating, embodying that for the clients I work with, for the people I lead, so that I'm modeling that. But it started from a place of not having it myself, you know. So I think the workplace is really naturally the way it's built is devoid of empathy and humanness, it is our job as the humans who comprise the company to bring that into the culture.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes I love that. Thank you for sharing that a hard season that really, you know, allows you to identify with the clients that you help and be a part of creating something that is more human and more life affirming. And that's not to put like some easy, pretty bow over a hard experience. But if there is a way to use something which is just crappy and how hard in your first week of marriage and a brand new job, but to be able to use that to be of service to others is a beautiful thing.   - Tegan Trovato There is purpose in everything. Sometimes it just takes a little while for us to get clear on what that purpose is right after a hard time. So I totally agree sometimes.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Sometimes it takes some dark night of the soul before we can come to that moment.   - Tegan Trovato Look, it gives us grit as leaders. It really does. And credibility and connection to others when we get to those things.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes So if if the last year and a half has been anything, it is a great leveler of some common experience.   - Tegan Trovato Indeed. Indeed.   -  Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, thank you, my friend. Anything else you'd like to add before I stop?   - Tegan Trovato No, I mean, this has just been a real pleasure and I'm just excited to hear what listeners might take away from this. And I just am really proud and humbled to work with leaders who are keen to do more of this and to create a more human workplace. And I would say there a majority. Yeah, people I've come into contact with. So I'm excited about what's what's ahead for all of us.   - Liesel Mindrebo Mertes Well, and if some of those leaders are listening and they think, wow, Bright Arrow sounds awesome, I'd like to find out more what is the best way for them to do that?   - Tegan Trovato Check out our website. And there's a contact form there, which is www.brightarrowcoaching.com and it's really easy to find me on LinkedIn as well.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Tegan… I love the positive vision that Tegan cast for what this time can be.Yes, it has been a rough go and a time of tremendous, shared suffering.  And yet, this time can, conversely, provide an opportunity for connection, trust, and vulnerability like never before.  Are you viewing the call to connection primarily as a burden or as an opportunity? As leaders and team members, it is important to tap into our own personalization of empathy.When is a time that you have needed extra support?  That you have felt weak or in need of care?  Considering these experiences can allow you more space to imagine what it could be like for another person.  And while we will never, 100% “get” what it is like for someone else, this consideration can move us forward in empathy How you care for people now will mark your organization moving forwards.I think it is such an insightful, true point.  Prospective employees, in years to come, will ask what you did and how you cared for your people during a year and a half of tremendous disruption.  As you think about your current practices and procedures, would you be happy and proud to talk about them in coming years?    OUTRO   Learn more about Tegan Trovato and her coaching work here:  https://www.brightarrowcoaching.com/  

Nick Smarrelli But at the end of it, you know, you can't be listening to the reality. It can't be you can't be talking about how fantastic things are when things don't feel fantastic because then you lose all credibility and that's what people want. I think in leadership these days.   I can get really snarky when technology is not working well for me…just ask my family.  Chromecast under functioning, the link refusing to load.  All of it can seem like a lot.  But the biggest frustrations come when the technology that I need for work isn't WORKING.  So, when I call the support desk, I am bringing a lot to that interaction.    My guest today is Nick Smarelli, he is the CEO of GadellNet Consulting and a big part of what his team does is troubleshoot those complex, frustrating tech calls.  Nick is talking today about how he keeps his staff engaged, supporting their well-being in the midst of a pandemic, giving them what they need so they can give the customers what they need.    Nick is open, insightful, and has great tips for anyone who is leading through a time of crisis and I anticipate that you will get as much out of the interaction as I did!   First, a little bit more about Nick.  Nick joined GadellNet in 2010 after working with Ingersoll Rand.  He studied psychology and finance as an undergrad and, I love this line from his bio, “Nick views all business decisions from the lens of blending both humanity and fiscal responsibility to achieve incredible outcomes.”  And I think you will hear that impulse in his interview.    GadellNet grew over his 10 tenure, from 4 employees to 150 across three states.  GadellNet has also earned honors as an Inc. “Best Places to Work”.   Nick is an ultramarathon runner, a father of three, a spouse of over 12 years, and an avid supporter of the community.  Nick has a podcast, “Zero Excuses”, where I had the pleasure of being a recent guest, where he speaks to guests on the power of the human potential – and how to live a self-accountable life.  He is currently pursuing his Masters Degree in Industrial Organizational Psychology from Harvard University.   We began our conversation talking about early morning workouts.  Nick is often up in the wee hours of the morning to exercise or to get work done, which feel slike a necessity at this stage of life as he is also a parent and a husband.    Liesel Mertes I was I was a rower in college. I was on the crew team. So I'm no stranger to like the four. Forty five am waiting approval.   - Nick Smarrelli I'm getting up in the morning.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Were you always a morning person or did you come to that with your like athletic pursuits.   - Nick Smarrelli I would say I am never been a morning person. I, I don't know if I am right now. Frankly it is not, it is not my default by any stretch. But I think by virtue of athletic pursuits, work commitments, usually speaking, there's just a lot of work to process and I find mornings to be really solid for that. It's again, after having kids, that is my lone moments of reasonably energized solitude. You know, certainly the kids go to bed, but by the time bedtime happens, I'm spent.   - Nick Smarrelli I'm not enjoying that moment. So carving out that morning space has given me a little bit of of time to have and be, I would say, selfish. That's my selfish time. That's my how. Take care of my body. Take care of my mind. Take care of a little bit of work so that when the kids wake up and my wife wakes up, I'm in a place and they're going to get the best of forty five minutes of me before the cycle starts again with, with kind of a normal workday.   - Nick Smarrelli So that's, that's really where I use that selfish time because I feel like the rest of the day is kind of committed to your pursuits outside of just myself.   - Liesel Mertes Totally. Well and I like that turn of phrase and the differentiation between energized versus depleted solitude, because I deeply resonate with that as a parent at this stage of life. Like by the time I'm finally alone and everybody is mostly in bed, although they're never completely in bed, there's always like that bouncy nap. Right. You know, they've had an epiphany or, you know, they want me to look at some bumpe. It's it's not the same as a morning solitude.   - Liesel Mertes I am. I saw something on your website that I would like to ask about, and it specifically leads into. Caring for people at work, creating culture of care.   - Liesel Mertes All right, that's helpful for me. I didn't want to do with it on my first attempt at.   - Liesel Mertes I saw on the GadellNet Consulting website, you talk about your 98 percent happiness score with clients, tell me a little bit more about that and then I want to dig deeper into that number.   - Nick Smarrelli Yes, well, I yeah, certainly, let's talk about that and a big part of our culture, at GadellNet, that is a lot of, I would say, bilateral feedback. So it's we we adore seeking and identifying feedback. So we always I always feel like every time we bring on a new employee, they're overwhelmed by the number of channels by which we get feedback from our clients, from our teams, from our from our leaders. You know, we love feedback.   - Nick Smarrelli I think it gives and informs us quite a bit in terms of our strategic decision making. But one of the big things that we implemented was just kind of a casual survey at the end of every single engagement that we have with a client of ours. So we are a 50 percent of the business is a 24/7 help desk. So at the end of the day, what we are supporting is somebody who walks in the door, expects things to work.   - Nick Smarrelli Things are not working that day. Oftentimes they are, let's say, a controller. They've got a big meeting with the CFO excels networking. So now you've got a lot of emotion that comes into it and they're calling in and they're seeking our help. So we talk all the time, endlessly, frankly, that our jobs are kind of half therapists have IT professionals. So we really kind of try to frame out this idea of kind of client satisfaction, client happiness, because we we really try to kind of throw an emotion at it, because at the end of the day, really what we're doing is dealing with angry people who are frustrated by the system.   - Nick Smarrelli And as a business leader, it is hard to keep people motivated to do that day in and day out. I sympathize with our front line team sometimes with kind of where their responsibilities are because everybody is frustrated. So the we really try to kind of put a focus on that experience that at the end of the day, in a 20 minute engagement that you have with that person there, just a little bit a little bit better, we kind of do it akin to there's a rock in your shoe, we take the rock out.   - Nick Smarrelli So we really kind of focus on metrics that tie back to an emotion because we believe that that's the end of the day. We're keeping systems running. But we're we're we've got to acknowledge that that person comes with a whole load of baggage and emotions to that phone call as well.   - Liesel Mertes Well, I love that awareness of the whole person that you're interacting with. And it makes me wonder, just in an informal sense, I mean, I picture the last year has been hard, complicated. There's quarantine, there's people schooling at home, there's relatives getting sick and the tolerance level for anything going wrong on the system side, I imagine being even lower than is already low bar. Have you have you people felt that on the other side of calls or chat interactions like just a higher intensity of anger or despair or all of the emotions of the people they serve?   - Nick Smarrelli You're this question is so incredibly relevant. It's painful. So I'll take two steps back and I promise I'll answer your question. But sure. You know, March 2020, obviously, everyone's going in lockdown. You know, the team is getting to X, the number of phone calls, everybody. They're dealing with their own personal crisis. And now they're also dealing with every fifteen thousand clients that are moving back to their homes or to their homes to work indefinitely.   - Nick Smarrelli Our job at that point is can be tied back to in some capacity saving lives. At the time, you didn't know how contagious this was. We didn't know what it was. But at the end of the day, we are creating space for people to continue to operate, to continue to keep their jobs and to keep themselves safe. Fast forward March 2021 and now really, but it really kind of came back really March 2021 and people are starting to come back.   - Nick Smarrelli We're in this kind of weird purgatory zone. Some people are being forced back to the office when most of them don't want to go back to the office. Most businesses have stopped hiring in that 12 month period and now the economy is ramping up. So their workload is higher than it's ever been. Couple that now with you know, if you go on LinkedIn, go on Inc.com, you'll see kind of this this mass turnover that's happening seemingly across the board.   - Nick Smarrelli So people are stressed, they're anxious. They are. This is the last, I would say four weeks have been the most eye opening in terms of kind of our responsibility emotionally to honor the people calling in, because it is it is a different just a vibe now. And it's been it's been interesting as a leader, it's been interesting to receive the feedback, but I don't know what it was where we were fully locked down, that everyone is still feeling this like solidarity of we can do it.   - Nick Smarrelli And now I just feel like people are just completely spent and burnt out and have just have nothing left to give to the cause. And they're in some sort of like adrenal fatigue at this point. And it's it's manifesting itself every single day to our team.   - Liesel Mertes And I and they're they're looking to discharge that stress on or to someone or something. And that that can be a big load to carry for the person at GadellNet Consulting, answering the phone. Is there anything that you have found has been really effective in how you train and equip your support staff to really meet that emotional moment? And let me backfill it with an observation of my own, which is I am a USAA insurance client. They do auto insurance, home insurance.   - Liesel Mertes And I remember being in my MBA program, we did a case study about USAA and just how they encountered that moment because, you know, a little bit like what you do. They're fielding calls of somebody who has just been in a car accident or their home has been robbed and that sense of their presence on the phone as being a business and a valued differentiator in the minds of clients. It strikes me that you're hoping to do something similar. How do you equip people in their training and then in the way that you support them in an ongoing manner so they can keep consistently delivering that to your clients?   - Nick Smarrelli That is a great question, and we have been seeking avenues with which to provide, I would say at this point we've named it, so that's our first step is acknowledged that fundamentally, I think people people the reason why we hire people that come to our company is they take everything very emotionally. They took a high degree of pride in their their jobs. And because of that, they feel when their clients that are upset, whether it's at us or just at the situation in general, they take it very personally.   - Nick Smarrelli So for us, we've kind of identified it as this is a this is a pervasive issue across the United States, across all businesses. We support three hundred businesses. We are a business ourselves. So much like last March where you were feeling it, the business itself is feeling it. Plus, we're also now bearing the responsibility across our client base as well. So that was really our first step. There is a series of books that our technicians are offered up.   - Nick Smarrelli Most of them have read, I would say probably about 80 percent have read it. The talk about kind of being that kind of empathetic engineer and and our team has kind of advocated for it's a light book. It's nice and easy for reading it. And then our last step is our training developing manager is out searching and for finding kind of how do we how do we provide that type of training. So our goal is in the next two weeks, we can have lunch and learn to talk about, you know, when people are feeling this or you're feeling it, kind of how do you how do you how do you how do you deal with it?   - Nick Smarrelli How do you not bring it home with you after five p.m.? How do you be empathetic to the emotion but then not have it add? I mean, again, these individuals are having eight to 12 phone calls a day to not be burdened with kind of a Lego stack of everyone's problems that are now building up, that you're bringing that home to your family. So we haven't done anything great yet, but I feel like I know somebody that may be able to help us.   - Nick Smarrelli That's you, by the way, to kind of help. How do we how do we have those conversations?   - Liesel Mertes And thank you for thinking. Well, it reminds me of some training that I've done throughout the course of the year with the Indiana Primary Health Care Association, because these are all of these frontline people and it's exactly what you're talking about. It's compassion fatigue, this emotional residue of exposure to other people's grief and trauma. And how do we not carry that into all of these other areas of life? Because, yeah, it's really real. And especially when your job is a frontline person.   - Liesel Mertes What have you done that has really worked over the last year to care for your people in a way that keeps them sustained?   - Nick Smarrelli So for us, we've hopefully we've done we've done a number of items, one of the key items is kind of start taking a step back. We we we use a tool called Tiny Balls. We're actually in the process of moving now to amplify. But it is a it is a tool that has allowed us to remain connected. If there's one thing that especially as somebody who has my personality, I like to be able to see people's faces and kind of read that feeling of exhaustion or exasperation.   - Nick Smarrelli And when you don't, you have a hundred and fifty employees in one hundred and fifty different places. That was impossible for us. We really ramped up our efforts around 20 plus questions that really tackled a lot of the key. Emotions during the last 12 months allowing for people to be expressive either directly or anonymously in terms of where that can shore up support, more than that, we've really kind of opened up avenues of communication. I, I if I look at my calendar pre March in terms of my engagement directly with employees that don't report to me or indirectly slightly report to me, I would say that was five percent of my day.   - Nick Smarrelli If you look at my weeks now, I'd say 30 to 40 percent of my days is talking to individuals across all layers of the organization and kind of hearing their stories and understanding their concerns. It's a big reason why, frankly, we're not pushing people to go back to the office just yet. As much as I would love to see their faces back in the office. The stories that I hear from them are saying we're where we want to go back, but we're just not ready yet.   - Nick Smarrelli And so for us, we've really tried to take that feedback, share the feedback directly to folks, and then really kind of take action on what we heard. Some of the tools that we've also used that I think are impactful. We created for the last six months I presented our state of the company is a scale we talked about the scale of kind of 10, which is operating on pure overload, pure, pure adrenaline, and then zero is just not getting anything done.   - Nick Smarrelli And for us, that March, April, May timeframe when everyone is moving remote, we all had to operate at an eight to a 10 and we wanted to make sure that we were operating at a at a zone that was capable for us. We kind of created this whole numbering system that people would use to check in with their managers, because sometimes you just can't name the word or name the feeling. But numbers seem to help. So this numbering system really kind of helped.   - Nick Smarrelli I would say open up dialogue to people to say I'm feeling like a two right now and saying that they're fine. Me as CEO, there's days I come in and I feel like a two and and that's OK. So really opening up the discussion around it, we've we've had lunch and learns around mental health. We've done training around it. We've we've really we've opened up employees being able to get access directly to therapy that has has I think I forgot the number.   - Nick Smarrelli We're three to four x the use of that service in the last 12 months now. So we're making sure we're putting money in the places that we're finding to be important. So, you know, I would say, were we the best at it? I would I would I would likely say no. But we really did make sure that the conversation was always open. I spoke frequently to how I was feeling, and it never was with my usual rub of optimism.   - Nick Smarrelli It was a lot of just kind of really open dialogue around the cell, I feel. And I'm running this company and it's OK that I'm not feeling bullish and optimistic today. That's that's an OK feeling. So. I just think it opened up dialogue and I think it was appreciated by the team.   - Liesel Mertes I love that it's so important and just for listeners, as I work with companies, I find again and again a mark of differentiation between companies that really can move forward in creating a culture of care or that are stuck in old patterns is members of the leadership team and top level managers being able to give the space for these conversations to be available and not like a one off an aberration, but important and sharing out of their own vulnerability. And I really like what you said, even if the awareness of putting aside what might be like your preferred way of operating with optimism and vision and leadership, when we so celebrate that, especially at top levels and and it is great, it really can help excel and drive a company to growth.   - Liesel Mertes And yet especially in moments of profound disruption, if that's just where a leader stays, like, I've just got to only, you know, it's like just keep pounding the optimism, Peg. It can really be discordant for people. So I hear that the growth in awareness that, you know, probably was necessary. Was that hard for you the first time that you were like, OK, I'm going to let them know where I'm really at?   - Nick Smarrelli So I would say without question, I am not. If you look at where I see a therapist and I talk through things as I do, I am I am a classic case of imposter syndrome. I mean, I'm a classic case of often feeling that if I am not acting perfectly and seen perfectly that in some capacity I'm failing. I take into account to too much what people think of me. So exposing that the CEO, which we have been taught since we were kids, are, you know, at the helm.   - Nick Smarrelli You're you're you're leading the way. My emotions trickle down to everybody else's emotions. If you're optimistic, people will follow you. And the reality was it was so dissonant to how I was feeling and how other people were feeling. We call it emotional intelligence. Call it something else. It felt fake to try to go out there and say everything is perfect, everything is great. Let's continue to move this way. And so, yeah, it was uncomfortable.   - Nick Smarrelli And it's frankly still is. I don't I don't like talking about where I'm falling short. I think an example is this week I was flying to Colorado. I was landing. I landed at forty five or nine o'clock at night. I was supposed to stay at a state, a colleague's house. And I texted him like, I just don't have the mental capacity with which to not be alone right now. And that was odd. That was odd for me.   - Nick Smarrelli And he was he was obviously very accepting of it. But to me that was me saying I, I just can't and I can't do it all. I can't come into a house and be in a good mood after being in a good mood all day. That was that was taxing on me. And so I think the last year has really opened up a chance for me to show. I think I learned throughout my career it's OK to not be the smartest person in the room, but it was never OK to show that much emotion.   - Nick Smarrelli And I think the last 12 months is really kind of allowed me to to show a bit more and to walk away from things. Just say like this is too much for me right now. And being OK with that and frankly, everybody really rising to the challenge when I wanted to do that.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that, what has been one of the most unexpected things that has come out of your vulnerability, whether that is something it has elicited at other people or how you felt afterwards, like has there been anything that you would say, I didn't really want to do this, but this has been good on the other side.   - Nick Smarrelli So I would say merely exposing if you look at kind of the different aspects of yourself that you tend to not show to others, I think, you know, social media is always gets blamed for this idea of building a personal brand. And certainly my personal brand is zero excuses. I I'm doing these ridiculously long races and look at me. I'm a great dad and that's my personal brand. And the days where I'm not crushing it is quite the opposite of that personal brand.   - Nick Smarrelli And for me, I think. I've set aside this necessity to always be and I'll use the word perfect, but maybe I'll call it on brand that. It's OK to showcase those those feelings and at the end of the day. That position has not changed. People still don't respect what I'm doing and frankly speaking, have have really stepped up and. Kind of allowed me to do that, and that has, I would say, kind of absolved a lot of the stress of the job because I haven't had to fake my way through it on the days where I couldn't.   - Nick Smarrelli So like I said, I think it just it just, frankly speaking, just allowed me to have a bit more grace than I ever have of not being this perfect person all the time and. I don't I think it's better and I'll give a story quick, we had an individual who I would say in September, October time frame, came to us and said, I'm all I was off for two weeks. And at one point during those two weeks, I considered taking my own life and we had sent him both my director of HR and myself had sent him a note in the middle of the week.   - Nick Smarrelli And I said, hey, this is how I'm feeling today. And I was feeling down and our director of H.R. said, hey, take the time, we support you. And that one two punch to him, he thinks saved his life. And he again, I don't mind sharing the story because he shared it with the whole team. He held a lunch and learn on mental health later that month. But he really kind of talked to what the impact of of those programs are on him.   - Nick Smarrelli So, again, I had the selfish motives of in the sense that it made me feel more comfortable as a leader being true to myself. And then I think for others, it allowed them to do the same thing to.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. The powerful effect of those meaningful gestures, I feel like sometimes as we in the face of disruptive life events, they can seem so big, whether that's pandemic or a death or sickness. And we can kind of negate the power of sending out an email or sharing how we're feeling or just sending that text of encouragement and the impact that those gestures can have and do have. Because when somebody's feeling. Suicidal when they're feeling underwater, they're really looking for something to to lay hold of, and if we can offer those things and be, you know, even even just the small gestures, I think that story really shows the power and the impact of those times of reaching out.   - Nick Smarrelli It's crazy to me, I had a great conversation with my father in law talking about just cuz listen to the podcast then and anything I'm on, he's he's a he's he's my number one fan. So any, anybody has on the podcast, you're guaranteed at least one more guest because of because of my father in law. But he talks about how incredibly different businesses today it is 20 years ago and how know companies like that, but also so many other great companies talk through these things.   - Nick Smarrelli But you couldn't even imagine having those conversations back then. And to me, I just feel like it's it's really is a huge shift. And I think more and more and more a bigger shift. And I'm hoping people take notice of those companies doing some great things that this is this is the new reality is people if you expect people to bring their whole self to work, there are some parts of that aren't as pretty. And we've got to we've got to honor that, too.   - Nick Smarrelli And that stuff that starts with leadership and saying if you want people to bring their whole self to them, to things, talk about your family, talk about your emotions, talk about your great talk about your bet. And again, to your point, I can't be a source of doom and gloom. If there are there are times where I have to shine and show and and push through those bad days with a smile on my face.   - Nick Smarrelli But at the end of it, you know, you can't be listening to the reality. It can't be you can't be talking about how fantastic things are when things don't feel fantastic because then you lose all credibility and that's what people want. I think in leadership these days.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and in my work as well, I oftentimes and party to that sort of generational divide of this is a different paradigm of doing work and I would definitely say a healthier, more inclusive, less even even if you just want to look at the the dollar cost. I mean, the cost of stress that was absorbed in people's bodies, in their health and their rate of burnout in that prior way of doing things was really high. And it's it is an important, necessary and competitive shift that we're engaging in.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And it's it's what people want. It's the way the world is moving. And I think the pandemic has really highlighted that if we could have played nicely and pretended that everything was OK, all of the pretension of that performance was stripped away in the month after month of covid and everybody coping with that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   I want to take a moment to adknowledge our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  In today's episode, you heard about the mental stressors and the toll of compassion fatigue on workers.  And maybe you thought, that is going on for me and on my team as well.  If so, let Handle with Care Consulting help.  With trainings on coping with compassion fatigue, how to have hard conversations, and how to build empathy in the workplace, we have an offering to fit your needs and help you skill up in empathy.  Contact Handle with Care Consulting for a free consultation today and start to put empathy to work.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   – Liesel Mertes   You are a psychology undergrad and currently doing master's work in industrial organizational psychology at and a little local school called Harvard. How does your knowledge of psychology affect how you lead as a CEO?   - Nick Smarrelli I think people always ask because I have a psychology and a finance degree, so it's almost you've got these you know, you've got the angel on one end and the devil on the other side and it often flips. I'm implying one is one or the other. But for me. You know, it's so funny where people always ask kind of where what do I use the most as finance or the psychology? And I would say finance. I use two percent of my job psychology.   - Nick Smarrelli I use the other ninety-eight and not the learnings necessarily from university, but more so the study of human potential, the study of. And at the end of the day, most business owners are managing people, we don't I don't run a factory where I've got precision in robotics, where I don't have to kind of honor brain and home and a lifetime of experiences as they bring that to work. So for me, psychology is required. It is it is the you know, you wouldn't have you wouldn't have a manufacturing facility with a bunch of equipment and not an engineer who could fix that equipment or understand how that equipment works.   - Nick Smarrelli And yet we seem to be OK to have and teach specifically at business schools. I have a very big contention with the curriculum of the business schools. It's so much practical curriculum and not. The people that execute on said curriculum, and I think that for me is a huge mess. So to me, I think leadership is ultimately, you know, you're an engineer of how things work and how if you put two things together, what happens if you put seven people together?   - Nick Smarrelli What happens? And so understanding team dynamics, understanding. You know, if you bring in this personality, how does that shift things? How do you how do you identify the right talent? I mean, that is all psychology. And I don't care how great your knowledge is of finance at the end of it, it's it's a people game and it's it's such a big part of the job recently. So for me, psychology,   - Nick Smarrelli Psychology always wins. And I love the study of it, which is why instead of pursuing an MBA, I opted to pursue a master's in industrial organizational psychology is how do I bring that psychological theory back to the business base?   - Liesel Mertes Well, I like that so much. And even the the framing like an engineer, because all too often it's turfed to H.R. like, well, get a person or a department for that. But how much that misses in the day to day of managing, deploying, you know, optimizing and engaging with people. I you shared a little bit earlier that sense of, OK, I want to lead with vulnerability, but I don't want to be doom and gloom.   - Liesel Mertes It reminds me of an article I came across. I reposted it and it was like the response was huge of people resonating with it. It was talking about four leaders being able to share without being leaky was the term this author used finding that sweet spot of encouraging vulnerability without just dumping on the people underneath you. It makes me think that oftentimes being at the top is a lonely. What have you found has been important to support your mental health. Where have you found a community that you can, you know, be leaky with that has allowed you to be able to be present for the people you lead?   - Liesel Mertes Especially over the last year or so?   - Nick Smarrelli I have been fortunate enough. I have been part of, let's say seven years ago, decided to join Vistage, which is a kind of a CEO group that has been hugely impactful into both business and then kind of just general mental health or kind of finding people that are going through the same problems. And then recently moved from Vistage to YPO, which is the Young Presidents organization here locally in Indianapolis. And also I'm part of the St. Louis chapter as well.   - Nick Smarrelli For me, it's hard to explain the stress and pressure of being the leader. Everything is big and I often say I get too much credit for the good stuff and I get too much credit for the bad stuff. At the end of the day, everything's my fault. It is a system or a person that I allowed to fail that created whatever problem we're experiencing. And that's that's a hard. Part of the job and then couple that with covid, where you've got two hundred and fifty people that are looking at you whose spouses are sick or spouses are not working anymore and looking at you to make sure that every decision you make is going to ensure that two weeks from now they're going to still get their paycheck.   - Nick Smarrelli It's it's it's it is lonely. And I think that is a great way to describe it. And my wife is just one of the most supportive people in the world. But it's hard to describe that feeling. It's hard to describe kind of that burden that sits on you. Even on Saturday afternoon when you're not sitting in front of a computer, you're still working, you're still processing, it's still there. There's still a little smelly in my subconscious that's processing all the forty seven things that we're trying to trying to improve on at any point.   - Nick Smarrelli So for me, finding people that are very much aligned with my values and then finding people, frankly speaking, that are so definitive, my values, that I would say in some capacity force me to either reevaluate or. Double down on the way that I think as a leader, but for me, creating space for me to talk about how hard it is sometimes and how I yearn sometimes to work at Starbucks. And when I leave, you know, there's no emails coming in afterwards or any of those type of things.   - Liesel Mertes And the biggest mistake you can make is misspelling somebody's name on the correct, which I would never say doing wrong milk.   - Nick Smarrelli Yeah, it my my ability to learn people's names, they would say, what's your name? And I would, of course, immediately forget it because that is that is my my go to. But but yes that is that's exactly. Nobody loses their job or their house or puts them in a crate in a strange place or I'm not pushing people to complete burnout or all the other stuff that kind of comes along with how do you push people to reach their highest potential but not push them over the ledge.   - Nick Smarrelli And this is such a fine line. So either way, long, rambling story here, to me, it's it's finding like minded people that you can truly be open with and and truly share the inner workings of how you're feeling, but how the business is doing and and people who just kind of understand what that burden is like. I can't articulate more as a leader is having what that group has meant to me in terms of getting through, especially the last year, but getting through the last 11 years of of of running a definite.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. Thank you for sharing, this has been a great conversation. Are there any questions I haven't asked you that would be helpful for me to ask you? Oh, man, we want to share.   - Nick Smarrelli No, I can't I'm sure I think if there's anything else, that's. That's out there. You know, nothing nothing comes to mind. I'm sure will later.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Nick…   As a leader, you need to be consistently making time to get the pulse of your people.Pre-pandemic, Nick said that he spent about 5% of his time checking in.  Now, the number is closer to 40% of his time.  These check-ins inform GadellNet's decisions about pivotal work moments like when to ask people to go back to the office.  How much time are you setting aside to purposefully get the pulse of your people.  “Psychology always wins”.I love and deeply resonate with this line from Nick.  The way that we train people often doesn't align with this reality, that leaders spend most of their time managing people.  A knowledge, an interest in the inner workings of your people will allow you to hire the best talent, to motivate your staff, and to troubleshoot problems as they come along.  Is a deep knowledge of people, of their psychology, a value in your organization?  How much is this awareness present or absent in your leadership team? There is a particular stress that leaders feel at all times, but especially within the dimensions of a global pandemic.In the midst of these pressures, Nick shares with vulnerability with his team, but he has also found it to be immensely helpful to have an external group that “gets” and understands what he is going through as an executive and can support him along the way.  Do you have a group of people that you can be real with and that can help you as you lead?    MUSICAL TRANSITION  OUTRO

- Jorge Vargas And sometimes we forget that at work. We forget that in other scenarios. And at the end of the day, work is important and matters. But but it's work. And we are we're humans and we're people. And we were feelings and we're joy. We're sadness first. And that ends up having a huge influence and work at the end of the day and not recognizing that it's a little bit naive and dismissive of it makes us better workers if we actually are a little more self-aware about how we're feeling, our emotions in general.   NEW INTRO   Today's conversation is wide-ranging.  We explore the importance of engaging with your own emotions, the absence of one-size-fits-all solutions to emotional and social health, and the particular challenges of empathetically managing multi-national teams.  I learned so much and I know that you will too.   My guest today is Jorge Alejandro Vargas. He works at the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit that supports our favorite research tool, Wikipedia.  There, Jorge leads Regional Partnerships, engaging with teams across the planet to leverage both private and public sector partnerships.    Jorge calls San Francisco home.  He moved here seven and a half years ago from Bogota, Colombia where he was born, educated, and worked as a lawyer specializing in Intellectual Property and Copyrights.    He recently moved to the Lower Height neighborhood from the Mission.    - Jorge Vargas I love walking around the city, a good friend and colleague said the San Francisco is a collection of neighborhoods rather than a single city, and each neighborhood has its own vibe and its own thing. And walking around is really nice. I also enjoy tennis a lot, so I try to fit a game of tennis at least once a week. Not that I'm very good at it, but I am trying my best to get that time out in the tennis court.   And as we ease into our conversation, perhaps there are some listeners that will remember the evolution of Wikipedia with me.  I remember when Wikipedia was looked down upon.  I was DEFINITELY never, ever allowed to use it as a source in high school or college.  But somehow, over the years, we have all come to rely upon the shared knowledge that the platform represents.    - Liesel Mertes Even the turn of phrase, it's almost like like Kleenex, like you Wikipedia something, because that's where you would go for trusted information. And even as my children use it, how much of a go to resource, which as it relates to your work, I feel like, you know, just in the span of my adulthood, I've seen readership grow, you know, participation, access. And it sounds like that sort of movement of building acceptance, you know, getting stakeholders together is what you're doing in these regional partnerships in a way to continue like moving there.   - Liesel Mertes The influence and the participation of Wikimedia and Wikipedia is that is that like an accurate enough summation of some of the things that you're doing? I realize there's probably way more to it than that.   - Jorge Vargas One hundred percent. And I think that it's been very interesting that so this year we're celebrating our 20th anniversary, actually.   - Liesel Mertes Happy 20th.   - Jorge Vargas Thank you very much. And it's been 20 years human and we call that. And that's kind like the the tag that we've been using for this big milestone of a birthday, because we really acknowledge the fact that Wikipedia is built by humans. It's because of hundreds of thousands of volunteers around the world that we have what we work with. They are volunteers. And the movement as a whole, as we call it, is the fuel and the magic that actually keeps Wikipedia alive with a foundation.   - Jorge Vargas What I do and the partnerships team as a whole tries to do is support that mission that is highly built by all those volunteers in the world and work with those partners that want to help us in many different ways further that mission and pretty much reach that vision that we have as a movement of imagining a world in which every single human being has access to the sum of all knowledge, which is an ambitious statement. It's a very bold move, but at the same time, that's what we want to do.   - Jorge Vargas But to do that, the only way is to work with others, and that is the whole spirit and DNA of the partnership's team and the work that we do.   - Liesel Mertes And what I hear in that is at its best, you know, Wikipedia is democratizing the the spread of knowledge, you know, with the with its kind of participatory platform. And yet still fact checking that people are able to do and getting voices from different sectors and different cultures and languages is so important in that continued growth of that mission.   - Jorge Vargas That is absolutely right. I think that what Wikipedia has done in the last ten years has disrupted the parroting. That knowledge should sit with with a few group, with a group of few folks. I would say I remember growing up with the concept that knowledge and information was trapped in this few books that we held with pride in the living room as the encyclopedia that we should look at as the source of trust. The knowledge and Wikipedia, although sounds on paper, is a crazy idea.   - Jorge Vargas Twenty years later, as finding ways to show that knowledge can be shared and can be produced by many people and really democratizing the notion that we all can be experts as long as we follow certain editorial guidelines that the encyclopedia relies on, as long as we are doing the homework. I would say in actually producing information in a way that is accurate, verifiable, neutral, and where consensus can be reached to make that part of the encyclopedia. So it's fascinating.   - Liesel Mertes You talked about managing teams across countries and I want to hear more about that, especially with what's gone on over the last year.   - Liesel Mertes One of the things that we really love to talk about on this podcast is how to build empathy and connection at work. And oftentimes that is something that is seen as not really having space in the workplace.   - Liesel Mertes What comes to mind when you think of within your personal experience, a story of a time when you really experienced the impact of either experiencing empathy at work or experiencing a lack of it in a way that made an impression on you.   - Jorge Vargas Thank you so much for that question. Does it bring some triggers, a lot of the positivity and like the things that I love about the work and specifically about my team. So the partnerships team and specifically the regional partnerships team is focused on, as I mentioned earlier, expanding and bringing ways to create more awareness and increase readership in particular parts of the world. And in order to do that, we needed to hire folks that are living in those parts of the world.   - Jorge Vargas So we have a regional manager for Latin America who in Colombia, someone who is in Indonesia, someone who's in India, someone is in Ghana, someone who was in Jordan recently relocated to to the U.S. So that brought me for I want to say the first time. The feeling of having to work on the same topic, on the same thing with five or six completely different people that came from completely different backgrounds, contexts, languages, time zones. And one of the big things where I realize that empathy was needed was the fact that we were just sitting in completely different parts of the world.   - Jorge Vargas And that meant that maybe someone was going to be having lunch or dinner while the other person was trying to feed them and have a conversation with them. Or maybe someone was in the middle of child care when the other person was actually in the middle of what they thought was an important meeting. So definitely trying to break that construct that we continue to see and that maybe the pandemic has a silver lining left or is leaving of not centralizing everything of where the place of work is physically located, the headquarters of the Wikimedia Foundation or in San Francisco.   - Liesel Mertes Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I think it's a very interesting point. What does so paint a picture for us? What does it look like for you to be checking in with yourself in a way that makes you a better manager as you think about what you're about to ask of, you know, a partner or a teammate?   - Jorge Vargas I think that for me, the first thing to I check in with myself is trying to think where the other person is. And by that I mean not just geographically or the times in which they are, but like try to understand maybe where that person is in their life. At that moment, particularly the last year and a half, has shown us that. Work and life, for better or for worse, or the day to day life are completely together, like it's very hard to separate, particularly when we're working from home.   - Jorge Vargas We know that we may have kids in the background. We may have like the mail come in. We may have someone that is needing something from somebody else and requires attention. And for me before this and when I used to work back in Columbia or when I started working for the foundation, I never thought of that. I was just like, well, working like it's just work, which like think of this thing that we need to do, period, no matter what.   - Jorge Vargas Now, I think that being more self aware. Sorry, more self aware about. Where the person is, is it late for them this morning for them. What happens if I sent them right now a ping that I need to talk to someone? And I make the assumption that even though it's late for them, they're probably awake or maybe they are awake, but they shouldn't be responding, but they're under the pressure to do so. So it's really checking in and being like, OK, where is the other person?   - Liesel Mertes Right, that's so good and being part of teams that span the globe, I imagine, really necessary. Do you feel like you're, you're learning curve has really had to, like, accelerate over the last year and all of those things?   - Jorge Vargas Absolutely. I think that for better or for worse, the fact that the partnership's team of the foundation is so remote from its inception allowed us to have a leg up before the pandemic because we were already building in the routines of what being on camera all the time would look like. Having this multiple time zones would look like at the same time, I think that this last year and a half through COVID has trained, has reinforced even more the idea of trying to understand and recognize where the other person is mentally and physically and trying to really be self aware of this is a good time for us to speak, not necessarily timers in the time zone, but.   - Jorge Vargas Maybe this person is going through something right now. Maybe they are going through a lot of stress because they haven't been able to deal with child care at the moment. Maybe there's been health complications with them or for their loved ones. And I think that before the pandemic, I wouldn't have thought about that. I would be like, oh, yeah, I know the Times Zone works or let's let's talk at 7:00 p.m. just so it's easier or whatever.   - Jorge Vargas But now it's more of a check in and think through first, like, oh, OK, but I remember that they said that this was happening mean I should think this through before sending this or asking for that. So it's been a it's been an interesting learning curve, I would say.   - Liesel Mertes So those sorts of things in my work, I call them disruptive life events, which 2020 and 2021 have been full of across the world, whether that is in people's immediate sphere of family and influence or, you know, a little bit more to the periphery. There have been there have been hospitalizations. There have been funerals. I find that even in even in like a singularly within one country, even in, let's say, just a strictly U.S. experience, there can be like people respond differently based on region conditioning personality.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that that becomes even more complex in how people experience grief and disruption when you expand it to global teams. Are you how have you found yourself navigating, you know, within different cultural norms of expectations as to whether it's OK to speak about these things at work or OK to cry or OK to show weakness? What are some stories or wisdom that you've gleaned in navigating those dynamics?   - Jorge Vargas That is a very interesting point and one that I can speak for me on a personal note. I grew up in Colombia. I shared earlier, and that came with me building myself from a work culture that was very conservative, very strict, where we wouldn't be open about things we wouldn't share or overshare or where feelings were not necessarily part of it, particularly in a law firm. And I remember moving to the U.S. and started working with the foundation and feeling that there was some sort of culture shock on how folks were maybe a little bit more open to do things and how I felt I was not necessarily in a position to be open or share or bring something to the table.   - Jorge Vargas And it took me a little while to understand how the culture would work at the workplace and how different it was to take that years later. I think for me it's now trying to understand the opposite side and now seeing how folks in parts of the world were. Maybe there is a little bit more of a restriction or of an apprehension to be open about things or share grief, share feelings or emotion where power dynamics, especially when it is an interaction between you and your manager, immediately puts you in a situation where you don't necessarily feel comfortable opening up or saying one thing or the other.   - Jorge Vargas So I think that it continues to be a learning curve for me. I think that it will always be a learning curve for me, but. Having to be exposed to so many different cultures, so many different ways to see life, to see disruption, to see grief, sadness or joy or positivity has showed me that there's no one size fits all solution for any way that we want to communicate among humans, particularly in a global context, that we keep working and evolving towards in this and many other places of work.   MUSICAL TRANSITION We will return to the conversation with Jorge in just a moment.  I'd like to take a second to recognize our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  If you've been listening this long into the podcast, you probably agree that empathy and connection at work are essential for keeping your people engaged.  But how can your grow your empathy skillset?  Let Handle with Care consulting help.  With keynotes, certificate progams, and leadership coaching, we have a solution to meet your need.  These sessions are engaging, combining stories with data, merging science with really actionable tips you can put into practice right away to build up a culture of care at work.  MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes I imagine to be able to do your job well, there is a necessary measure of curiosity and adaptability, you know, to continue, as you said, to find those things fascinating and rewarding. Would you say that that has would you say that that's a part of you and has always been a part of you, or is that something that you've had to cultivate as you have, you know, moved into different cultures and continue to expand your cultural competency?   - Jorge Vargas I have to say that it's more of the latter. I never thought that. I mean, I do consider myself a curious person and someone who wants to learn more from others from a personality basis. I'm always. Very chatty, very open, very sociable, and to meet people, learn from them, and at the same time, I never embedded the cultural element or the understanding of where others come from as part of that. Being exposed to that now through work has put me in a place where I now are more sensitive or more sensible is the word to that and have my eyes more open and my ears more open to that, the receptiveness that we need in order to make sure that we're taking that into account.   - Jorge Vargas I also think that being the U.S. were, for better or for worse, there's a mix of personalities, approaches in life, cultural context, whereas in Colombia it was way more. One note, a lot of people that would think similarly or act similarly. That also just the fact of me being in the U.S. and being exposed to other different things allowed me to fine tune a little bit more. That element that you're describing as being more perceptive and more curious to understand that cultural part of what just being human and having a human interaction.   - Liesel Mertes What has it been like to build connection across these international teams, because like those truly human elements of connecting, feeling like that person has my back, we celebrate wins together, we support each other during losses that can feel like a complex task even when everyone is coming from the same cultural context. What have you done that has really helped build those elements of connections in the teams you manage?   - Jorge Vargas I definitely think that there's been a lot of conscious or unconscious effort and just being very open and honest about myself with others and just putting myself in a situation where I try to be as human and as real as I can, which that definitely has been a work in progress and hard in the sense of. Being very close and very reserved before being here, much more in a in a space of work, but showing that openness and that willingness to just be human with others, I think that no matter if the cultural context could be different or there's like some translation to be done allows me or has allowed me to build those connections, those personal connections that ease down a little bit of the tension that exists on not just the cultural friction and challenges and differences that we may have, but the dynamics that would exist between you and your manager or you and somebody else that maybe has way more experience within the organization or whatnot.   - Jorge Vargas So. I think that at the end of the day, one of the things that I've noticed myself doing more and more is. Finding ways to come across as approachable as I can and as real as I can and honest about my feelings as I can, and that has required a lot of work on my own self-awareness and realizing that it's important for me to check in how I am feeling at the moment, like maybe I'm not happy for something. And coming up to a conversation with someone in a different part of the world or in the U.S. or whatnot.   - Jorge Vargas Without me realizing, like, no, first I need to know, like, OK, I'm not thrilled right now because of X or Y, is this the right time to talk about this? Is the right time for me to have a conversation about this or that topic that for me, I think has also helped open myself more to others and recognize that, OK, maybe this is a great time for me to say, you know what, I'm not having a great day, but we need to talk about this.   - Jorge Vargas And this is something that we should just do. And that openness has and that being real about things has allowed us as a team at large to just really is way more into each other and see each other more as human, particularly when there's not an element of physical interaction, which is also one of the bigger challenges that we have in in this work and in general with remote work and in the past year and a half with covid. I've worked with people that I've never met in my life in person, and it's been two or three years like I've met my team, which is great pre covid, but usually would have like one or two opportunities a year to do so.   - Jorge Vargas So having to build that rapport and that connection behind a camera and a microphone is very, very different. And I just can, like, wrap up with a nice, I think, example in practice that me and my colleague Yael has instituted in the team. We have a weekly team meeting where we don't start the meeting until we all go on around and just share what's going on in our lives and sometimes is very sad and sometimes has us sharing grief or loss or challenges with each other.   - Jorge Vargas Sometimes it's time to celebrate and share funny memories and happy things and just recognizing that we're all human before being just robots. That work has been critical to being able to build that empathy and that connection with my team and with folks across the organization.   - Liesel Mertes That's so good. And I see that again and again in in high functioning versus, you know, like low functioning teams is this element. Of vulnerability from the top and granting permission in some ways, because so oftentimes there's this power dynamic that exists where especially if leadership like if they never appear vulnerable or human, certainly the people underneath them don't think that it would be appropriate to accept it, OK, for them to share something hard. So, yeah, I think that is incredibly powerful.   - Liesel Mertes And you touched on the, the important thing and the challenge of being able to express your feelings, which is knowing actually how you're feeling, which especially, you know, I know for me and for many people who succeed in in the typical ways of succeeding like, that, you know, their high efficiency, they're going one thing to the next. And it really does take purposeful work and pausing to interrogate yourself and be like, I think I'm actually feeling things right now.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. What, what could they be? So, yeah, I resonate with the importance of doing that.   - Jorge Vargas And I think that it's a work in progress, I think that I I mean, I hear myself say that and I realize that that hasn't been or that has never been the constant in my life. Right. Like just having that level of self-awareness is taken a while and is definitely taking a lot of therapy and a huge fan of therapy. I encourage everyone to go to therapy. It's just recognizing that were that were people that were human, that were flesh and bones.   - Jorge Vargas And sometimes we forget that at work. We forget that in other scenarios. And at the end of the day, work is important and matters. But but it's work. And we are we're humans and we're people. And we were feelings and we're joy. We're sadness first. And that ends up having a huge influence and work at the end of the day and not recognizing that it's a little bit naive and dismissive of it makes us better workers if we actually are a little more self-aware about how we're feeling, our emotions in general.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. Well, and if we have punishing internal voices that never allow us to feel our own feelings, certainly we are transmitting that sort of energy to the people that we manage, you know, like that's not acceptable here. And agreed. Huge fan and participant in therapy over the years and that work in progress. You know, we I have a there are six people living in my household that span the age range. And so there's lots of emotions and lots of volume all the time.   - Liesel Mertes And but but just because you're expressing them doesn't really mean you're fully aware of them. We put up a poster on the wall that was this like concentric circles of feelings to even be able to look at. And it's helpful for me. You know, I put a sticker on my water bottle. My daughter was asking me even today, someone what you seem a little preoccupied with, what are you what are you feeling? And we went through, you know, the the little circle.   - Liesel Mertes And I it was helpful to get me to what I was actually feeling, not just preoccupied, but something deeper than that. All right, what are times for you as a manager that building connection has felt easy across your teams? And why do you think it felt easy?   - Jorge Vargas I think that the times we're doing that empathy building or that human connection has been easier has been the times where I've managed to be with my teammates and my colleagues in person. I think that being in person definitely makes things makes things easier to just open up, be a little bit more human, be a little bit more approachable. And I have to say that it's been very hard not being able to do that in the last two years, year and a half, because that, I guess, like to to the question like it's hard to like be able to build empathy and understand where others are when we don't really have a proper read on where someone stands.   - Jorge Vargas I think that the physicality of how we act and the faces that we make and the body language that we show to other folks helps a lot when it comes to building that empathy and that understanding of the other. And doing that behind a screen on a little box that shows up in your screen is hard. It's tricky. And sometimes it's very hard to read where others are, right? Yep. I think that being in person has definitely. Or when we are in person, building the empathy and building more of that report, it's definitely easier, right?   - Liesel Mertes And well and especially working cross culturally. I spent a year living in Nairobi and even in person because of some of the cultural differences, the body language differences. You know, I was just always progressively learning like, oh, I'm I am misreading what is going on right here. And I'm in the room, let alone when you know that interaction is reduced to a two inch by two inch screen. What what has helped, as you have done all of the the ZOOMIN or the Microsoft teams or whatever platform you prefer, have you adopted any best practices for effective communication mediated by technology?   - Jorge Vargas Definitely. One of the points that I've been trying to enforce more and more to myself. Is just learning to listen, like just listening more and making myself sure that even if it's behind a screen or even if it's in person, I allow myself to get as much information as possible that allows me to break some assumptions or where someone is emotionally or where someone is presently or not. And that listening or. Has been very, very important, but I also think that someone or something I would say sorry that has helped or that helps a lot, is just allowing myself to be wrong and be OK with that and letting others know that.   - Jorge Vargas I can also be wrong sometimes, and assuming that someone is OK or the opposite and not deluding myself, but by thinking that I have to know it all and that I have to be the super, highly, emotionally, emotionally intelligent person that knows where and how, like just for giving myself a little bit more and allowing others to. Feel OK that they can be wrong about how I'm feeling about X or Y or Z, that has helped both in person but also behind the screen, you know, so often.   - Liesel Mertes The story that we tell our stories of our victories and successes and times that we've done things well, if there's a story that you can share, I would love to hear a story where you realized that you were wrong and went about making repairs and the impact that that had.   - Jorge Vargas I think that sometimes we make assumptions about people that puts us in a situation that makes us defensive or makes us biased towards trying to find ourselves right in an argument and win over something. And specifically, I see that in the past there's been situations where I've allowed myself to join a conversation or start a discussion with a colleague or with a teammate with a lot of assumptions in my mind. And probably that makes me. Weaker to begin with and makes me fail and just takes me to being wrong at the end of the day, and I realize that sometimes that would even take me to a situation where I would have to.   - Jorge Vargas Even think of like, OK, maybe I should actually apologize, because I was I came into this conversation thinking that they were going to do A, B, C or C ABC, and even though they didn't, I took the conversation or two the discussion to that route. And I also, because of the assumptions, I came to that discussion with a lot of emotions, with a lot of anger, a lot of resentment towards was what was going to happen.   - Jorge Vargas And and that made me fail. And that made me be a bad manager at the moment or that made me be a bad colleague or about teammate at the moment and those situations where I failed. For me, it has made it even worse, more complicated to understand is the fact that sometimes. We don't even know that we failed until we really went deeper on that, failing until we really hurt someone or until someone actually calls you out. Sometimes you're not even called out or sometimes it just.   - Jorge Vargas This hurt or damage that you did and you're not even aware of it   - Liesel Mertes And you mentioned that that feeling like, should I apologize? Do I need to circle back? Do you find yourself in the aftermath of some of those situations going and making repairs that way?   - Jorge Vargas Definitely. And I think that I mean, that applies a lot, not just on the the professional level, but like on the personal level. I tend to be someone who and definitely something that I keep working on day and day that could say things and afterwards be like, oh, crap. Like what did I just say? Or like, was this what I really wanted to say? Or was this like my frustration speaking for me and then coming back to being like, OK, what did I actually say?   - Jorge Vargas I wish that I could have like a recorder playback of what I said and how I set it to make sure that what taste left in my mouth after I was in an interaction with someone, actually. Was right or wrong, but usually there's like an aftermath where you're like. Oops, I think that maybe this was not what I had to or maybe I came across completely wrong in this or that, usually if there's that gut feeling, it's because something was wrong, I think.   - Jorge Vargas Yeah, the good thing for me at least, has been just being able to recognise that and be open about it and go back to a person and say. You know what, I may have been wrong, did I say something, did I do this or did I do that instead of just staying with the assumption that maybe it wasn't?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. That I that I'm just going to double down on this or hope that it goes away or all of these coping mechanisms that can feel easier than just, you know, being straightforward and owning our stuff. And I think so often, you know what what I have experienced and what I consistently observe is that can be hard for leaders actually to want to do. They feel like I'm the I'm the leader. Other people apologize to me. I don't apologize to them instead of really embracing them, the transformative power that there is in owning your stuff.   - Jorge Vargas Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that I mean, there's a lot of ego attached to positions of management that sometimes they bring really great things, but sometimes they don't. And oftentimes it's just realizing that no matter if we are in a different power dynamic, we are all human, we're all the same people. We all have feelings. We only have approached something the wrong way or the right way and. I think it's better at times to go back to someone and say, I think that I may have said something and be wrong about it and be told, no, you were fine, don't worry.   - Jorge Vargas Even, even if it's not really true, even if that person is just letting it pass. But it's better to do that and then be like, OK, at least I did it then just staying with a weird afterthought and knowing anything about it.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Just trying to push it to the side. Yep. What words of insight would you offer to listeners who are sitting here and they think, you know, I, I there's some work that I can do, I want to be cultivating more connection and humanity at my workplace. Where should where should they start? What are some things that have been helpful for you?   - Jorge Vargas I think that a good way for me to kind of like start that conversation or like give those specific tips here. And there is maybe broadly saying that recognizing that we are all people that bring our own baggage to the office and recognizing that that is OK. Like, I think that for me personally. My culture and my context. Was very pushy about the idea that you left your baggage at home and came to work, acted, worked and developed whatever you needed to do and then came back to that, and that is not really true.   - Jorge Vargas And I think understanding and acknowledging that we are human and come to work and engage in work relationships and conversations with the baggage that we have with waking up grumpy, not having a good night's sleep, having issues with our child care, having a fight with your spouse or maybe the opposite, coming in very happy because you had like a phenomenal night the day before or you've been having really good things happening. At least recognizing that that is there and not feeling guilty about feeling those feelings is a good way to start.   - Jorge Vargas And I'm speaking for myself. I used to feel very guilty about feeling feelings at work. And it sounds kind of dumb now that I think about it. But that's pretty much like how a lot of the work culture has been shaped and the idea that we have to separate completely our feelings and our work and our humanity with the day to day office. But then in addition to that, I would say that trying to stay as open and as transparent and as approachable to folks is really is really important.   - Jorge Vargas And that usually starts with just trying to share a little bit more about who you are, about where you are at the moment. I think that you put it very eloquently by saying giving permission to others to recognize that you are human, that you're not this wall and a manager that is just this person that is looking at your work and giving you a qualification that at the end of the day will give you a yes or no pass grade, but actually just a fellow human that needs to recognize that sometimes they have good things going on, sometimes they don't, and allowing yourself to give that permission to others.   - Jorge Vargas And I think that also applies even outside of work.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. It's so good. What is a person or a book, and if a few come to mind, you can feel free to say, that have really positively affected your development as a leader?   - Jorge Vargas I'm going to cheat and not say a book or a person, but I'm going to go to a podcast, although that or very poorly paid work. And Shankar Vedantam has this phenomenal podcast that I think of my favorite podcast called Hidden Brain on NPR. And it's really about understanding all of this things that we as humans have in our brain, in our personality and our humanity, and how that impacts the day to day life, how that impacts work, how that impacts conscious or unconsciously the patterns in human behavior that are part of everything.   - Jorge Vargas And it's a fascinating podcast. It goes on a weekly basis. And I strongly encourage folks to go through it because it also touches to a lot of things that sometimes speak to me personally. Sometimes it speaks to me about work. Sometimes it speaks to me about something specific that's going on in the world. And all in all, I think it has really shaped me, or at least has awakened a lot of curiosity about more of the things that we have hidden in our brains as the name of the podcast stands for.   - Liesel Mertes Are there any questions that it would be helpful for me to ask you that I haven't asked you yet?   - Jorge Vargas I think that I would love to understand or maybe hear based on your experience in the conversations that you've had with many folks about this topic, how much of the cultural context and cultural background that we'll bring that we've discussed in the last hour or so, how much data that comes up? How much do people actually recognize that? That is something that we all need to identify in the context of empathy and empathy at the workplace?   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. Well, that's that's a good question. Let me give you kind of an impressionistic take on the question, which I I was a political science major. My favorite area of study in my undergraduate work was post-colonial theory, you know, different different cultures, speaking back to power structures. So I've I've taken some of that curiosity. Even in my MBA program. I was I was studying supply chain and global management. So it it caught my interest consistently.   - Liesel Mertes Like, how are the assumptions that we're making about how business functions? How do they hold water? How do they not how do we need to be pivoting in a more global context? And the reality is whether it's whether it's global writ large or even within, like, you know, I consult with companies who everybody is living in central Indiana. You know, it's way more homogenous. Some of the companies that I work with on a smaller scale.   - Liesel Mertes But still there are these these differences. I, I introduce people to empathy avatars in my training. These are these go to like postures of our personality that we take on when we encounter someone else who's going through a hard time. So you could manifest as like a Buck up Bobby, which is someone who is that mentality we were talking about, which is, you know, work is for work. We're all about productivity. It's a stiff upper lip.   - Liesel Mertes You know, you just have to keep on keeping on or at. Cheer-Up Cheryl. You know, someone who is always wanting to look on the bright side, forcing someone else to look on the bright side or a Fix-It frank, someone who is all about like, let's let's just what's the solution? Like, how can I get you not to feel poorly? And there's there's seven or eight of those. And they're there like ways of being that people have adopted out of their own personal experience, out of the norms of their cultural context, out of what helped them survive formative pain in their own lives.   - Liesel Mertes And it's continually fascinating to me.   - Liesel Mertes So that's a roundabout way of saying I'm a student. I've seen how these things express themselves when I you know, when I talk about even to talk about like. You know, places like like Japan or China, like those are huge, complex, diverse cultures, but, you know, those are when people are doing work, you know, with their counterparts in those countries, those people identify a lot more with like, again, that the Buck-Bobby or the Fix it Frank.   - Liesel Mertes Like, it's it tends to be that the normative cultural experience is we don't talk about those things and like that. We are not showing vulnerability in those ways. Like you, you have to find somebody else in your life to deal with that stuff is not going to be here. So I'm continually learning. Does that answer your question about some of the things that I've seen?   - Jorge Vargas Absolutely. And it's fascinating that you mentioned something that probably we we didn't look more deeply into, but it's the fact that the power dynamics and the differences in cultures and contexts also speak a lot to just the historical dynamics that have put some cultures, quote unquote, above others and might oppression that has existed in the hundreds of years that we have as like people interacting with people. And that also comes to play a lot when it comes to the workplace and finding ways to build empathy and try to break some things that unconsciously have been ingrained into our system culturally.   - Jorge Vargas It's hard and sometimes it's even hard to recognize, I think that for me, speaking for myself, although I was very. Happy and lucky and privileged to grow up in Colombia, still in an international setting and going to an international school, there was always the sense that. You as a Colombian were less than someone in the U.S. or someone in Europe simply for the fact of where you are, where you were coming from, and that plays a big role as well in understanding that cultural context and that cultural baggage that we bring to human interactions and to human interactions in the workplace.   - Jorge Vargas So I appreciate that you bring that point because it's definitely very relevant and still something that we see now in understanding how history, how race, how political systems keep just influencing the ways in which we bring ourselves to work and bring ourselves to interacting with others. And it's not just that different cultures are different. It's also the fact that some cultures have been historically oppressed by others and. Denying that or not, acknowledging that that is also part of how we interact in the workplace in a global context is this is harsh justice complex and we just have to remind ourselves of that.   - Jorge Vargas So thank you for making that point.   - Liesel Mertes And that's that's part of why one of the foundational tenets I talk about is it's something that that you touched upon is just the importance of paying radical attention to the person in front of you to free yourself a lot of the times from feeling the responsibility of, like, I need to fix this or I need to get out of this situation because I feel personally uncomfortable and triggered.   - Liesel Mertes But to be able to do the work and just coach yourself to like I'm going to be radically attentive here and I'm going to I'm going to have in my mind, you know, almost like a decision tree, different ways that I can pivot and respond based on what this person is indicating that they need.   - Jorge Vargas That is so true and like so, so powerful. And I love this. Time of radical attentiveness, I think that it's really, really great that I'm definitely taking that coined term that you shared with me, because I love that it actually describes a lot of what we were talking about.   - Liesel Mertes So, yeah, well, and it's I mean, we feel it right. Especially with so many devices and demands that take our attention, like whether it's whether it's a partner or a friend when somebody I mean, even if you're not going through a hard time, when somebody just like zeroes in on your story and they're really there with you, you know, I feel like we realize how rare it is just because, you know, we so seldom give that to people or even experience it.   - Liesel Mertes And it's just one of the most powerful gifts that we can give.   - Jorge Vargas That is absolutely true.   - Liesel Mertes All right, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much you I really I am better as a result of the conversation and it is expanding my perspective and my available toolkit. So thank you for sharing.   - Jorge Vargas Thank you so much, Liesel, for doing this work and for inviting me to chat about this, and this was a fascinating conversation.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Jorge… In order to fully engage in empathy and support, it is important to know how you are feeling in a given moment and interaction.Jorge described the process of pausing to really acknowledge his own emotions, his willingness to share his emotional moment with others, and the work of counseling and introspection that it took to get him to that point of self-awareness.  How aware are you of your emotional state in the course of a given day? Grief, sadness, joy, positivity.Jorge has experienced a range of emotions across cultures and, as he said, there is no “one-size fits all” solution to how people experience grief.  This leads to the importance of radical attention, cultural attunement, and the importance of checking in with those that you work with and manage.   Good leaders go back to make repairs, they apologize, they interrogate their experience and develop the gut instinct that Jorge talked about, the one that reminds them to prioritize the person instead of their own ego.When was the last time you apologized?  Has it been a while?  It might not be that you are always acting excellently.  If you haven't apologized in a while, it could be an invitation to deeper self-awareness.    OUTRO

This is the Handle with Care:  Empathy at Work podcast.  I’m your host, Liesel Mindrebo Mertes helping you build a culture of care and connection through empathy at work.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   Welcome to Season 2. Empathy matters.  It isn’t just some squishy personality trait, it is a set of skills and a capacity for connection that you can develop, if you have the desire.  And that is what season 2 is all about.  I am going to introduce you, in each episode, to a leader that is purposefully building connection and engagement at work.  They will share best practices, the ways that have grown and their occasional failures.    My guest today is Scott Shute.  Scott is the Head of Mindfulness and Compassion at LinkedIn, which is this great role that sits at the intersection of ancient wisdom traditions and a technology company.  He is also an avid photographer, a musician, and, most recently, a published author.  His book, “The Full Body Yes” launched in the middle of May.  His mission is to change work from the inside out by “mainstreaming mindfulness” and “operationalizing compassion.”   This was a deeply enriching conversation about how to build up mindfulness…and in a year of so many distractions, don’t we all need a little more attention and mindfulness?  And how to operationalize compassion, which is right up my alley.    We began talking about his book.  I got to read an advance copy and enjoyed a passage so much that I called my 13 year old daughter into the room one morning to read it aloud to her.  It was that spot-on.   Scott Shute I was saying what you just said about response is what has been typical, like what I'm not getting is I send the book to my friends and they're like, oh, hey, cool. Got your book. Thanks. Not getting that. What I'm getting is like, oh, my God, Chapter eight, like, we got to talk about this because blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And and there is at least one story in there for everyone that's been super meaningful and has moved the needle on their life just a little bit or something that resonated with just a little bit or a lot.   Scott Shute And so that's been super gratifying.   Liesel Mertes Absolutely. Well, and as someone who prizes the craft of storytelling, I enjoy just all the places that the full body. Yes. Took me from Japan to Kansas to dealing with bullying in your adolescent years and back again. So I enjoyed both the wisdom but also the delivery of it. And I I have some questions to ask about certain sections of the book. I can't wait to jump in.   Liesel Mertes What is your personal connection to why empathy matters and why it specifically matters in the workplace?   Scott Shute And thank you for that question and thanks for having me. It matters because we don't work in isolation. We work with others, we live with others. And so to me, empathy, I talk a lot about compassion and I'll separate the two a bit. So I define compassion, is having an awareness of others, a mindset of wishing the best for them, and then the courage to take action. And some people say that compassion is empathy plus action.   Scott Shute And so if you're talking about these first two pieces, it's first being aware of others and then having a mindset of wishing the best for them or a mindset of kindness. And why that's important in the workplace is, yeah, we don't work by ourselves. We work in teams. And what we've discovered, what science has shown us Project Aristotle at Google has shown us is the number one factor in creating a high performance team is, well, it's not their IQ, it's not what school they went to.   Scott Shute It's not even the level of diversity in technology or overall diversity. It's psychological safety. This ability to say, hey, can I can I be myself in front of you guys, can I can I fail in front of you and know that you have my back, but actually even harder? Can I succeed? Can I win in front of you and know that you have my back? So if we're on a sales team and I just made two hundred twenty percent a quarter with two weeks to go and my friends at eighty five percent of quarter, are they really going to help me out.   Scott Shute Are they going to look at me the same way. Am I going to look at them the same way. So this idea of empathy, this idea of being aware of others and having a mindset of wishing the best for them, really putting ourselves in their shoes builds powerful work environments where we end up being more creative. We end up with better solutions. We end up delivering something much better for our customers.   Liesel Mertes I love that. Just touching on the data points, some of the business case that's there, I'd like to dig a little deeper. Would you tell me about a time in your work experience where you think, man, I was not OK? I was really going through a hard time and this person's care, attention, what they did or said really made a difference and paint that picture for us.   Scott Shute Sure. Great question, I think for me, I'm trying to find a specific one, but for me it's that feeling of connection. I, I felt the sting of isolation in high school. You know, I had a really great junior high. Some people hate junior high. I loved junior high. But my first two years of high school were really painful or really hard. And they were, upon reflection, upon a lot of years of reflection.   Scott Shute I realize this because I felt isolated, that I felt loneliness, that I felt, you know, other than and I eventually ended up changing schools. And what was so great about finding a new school, as I found people that I connected with, people who enjoyed me for who I was. And this is the antidote to loneliness, this is the antidote to isolation and this being connection, and when we feel like we're connected to others. And so I've what I appreciate about your work is that, you know, a lot of stuff when we're going through it, it's about that isolation.   Scott Shute Sometimes it's about the isolation we feel about ourselves, like we don't feel good about ourselves. That inner critic, that obnoxious roommate in our mind is going crazy and we just feel gross. Sometimes it's feeling a disconnection from others. Sometimes that can be about performance, right? If I'm if things aren't going well, then it it comes back to feeling disconnected, feeling like, oh, well, are they going to throw me out of here? Am I going to lose my job?   Scott Shute And so anything that builds that connection, whether it's a manager's kind words or a cross-functional partners kind words or just having a friend at work that you can go take a walk around the block with or, you know, now assume call and and say everything you want to to. That is such a meaningful thing because it's like, oh, here, here it is. I can remember again what's really important and what's really important are these relationships. What's really important is feeling connected to myself, but also connected everything else   Liesel Mertes That that reminds me of a passage from your book, The Full Body Yes.   Liesel Mertes Would you mind if I would it be OK if I read aloud to you just as a section you're talking about this process of discovering what your dream job would be. And you're write, "If companies were more conscious, they would treat their customers better. There would be more integrity and trust in the world. If companies and their leaders were more conscious, they would treat their employees better. There would be less trauma and stress. There would be more healing, more creativity.   Liesel Mertes People could be whole. We wouldn't need to think of our work life as bad and the rest of our lives as good. We can bring compassion into everything we do at work, not just because it makes others feel better, but also because it's a better strategy for success. The research bears this out. We just haven't quite caught up to it in practice yet."   Liesel Mertes I feel like that echoes what you just said, and I would love to hear in your position and scope of influence.   Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit about your role at LinkedIn and how you've gone about being part of actualizing some of those beautiful sentiments. And I love for you to also include some of the pain points along the way from concept to reality. There's oftentimes some stretching that goes.   Scott Shute Sure, sure. I've been at LinkedIn for nine years and the first six of those, I was the VP of Global Customer Operations, which was essentially customer service and a lot of other functions that are customer facing outside of sales. And part of me is I've I was able to bring my mindfulness or my contemplative practice to work, starting about two years in as a volunteer for my for my other job. And I've been in this this role now for three years as a full time role, Head of Mindfulness and Compassion.   Scott Shute But what does it mean? So there's two parts of my role, mainstream mindfulness and operationalise compassion and in mainstream mindfulness, we're just trying to make mindfulness as meditation really and overall mindfulness like self awareness, just as normal as physical exercise. So you can think of it like mental exercise and physical exercise, because our employees, they're almost all knowledge workers. Right. We don't need to run six minute miles or lift heavy things, but we do need to stay mentally focused and emotionally balanced and all those sorts of things.   Scott Shute So this is why it's important. And what it means is we offer things like meditation sessions. We have, well, pre pandemic. We had 40 to 60 a week across the globe. LinkedIn is about a fifteen or sixteen thousand person company. We offer an app called Why Is It Work, which we really like from our partners at Wisdom Labs. And every year we do a 30 day challenge involving that app, usually in October, where we get people to use it and the challenges, you know, meditate or, you know, use the app 20 times within the month of October and we'll give you a T-shirt of this year.   Scott Shute We give Hoodie's said, never, never underestimate the power of a free hoodie on behavior.   Liesel Mertes Absolutely. I'd do much more for a hoodie than I would for a t shirt. That was right.   Scott Shute Right. It was pretty good. We do things like mini retreats if people want to go further. Speaker series, again, just trying to make these mental exercises and these this idea around self awareness just as commonplace as physical exercise. Now, for that part, and it's been super successful, you know, every year we have more and more and more people, but also as a percentage of our population taking part in these things.   Scott Shute And during especially during COVID time, during quarantine time, you know, there's been an uptick because, one, people can come to it. When now when I lead a meditation session, I'm getting people from all over the world instead of just, you know, the people from my building on fourth floor on Thursday at four thirty in the afternoon. And the second reason they come is because they need it like we're we're all having challenges in our own ways.   Scott Shute And so that those challenges are forcing people to go inside.   Liesel Mertes I also want to hear about that part that you said operationalising. Yeah, and it is because it makes me think of another quote you have in your book that we don't rise to the level of our expectation would fall to the level of our systems, which is something that I do. Yes. And my training and consulting all the time to move from good intentions and thoughts and prayers to actually how do we have replicable systems of care and training that make us good instead of poor in these issues.   [Liesel Mertes So I'd love to hear more about that.   Scott Shute Let's talk about that. So I first talked about all the things we're doing with mindfulness. The second part of my job is operationalizing compassion. And look, I think mindfulness is interesting and it's all about self development and it's really powerful. And that's going to happen with or without me. There's a huge move towards mindfulness, but compassion, compassion, I think, is where the juices, because this is how we work. It's how we work together.   Scott Shute It's how we work with our customers. So if you think back to my definition, three parts, you're building capacity to be aware of. Others have a mindset of wishing the best for them and then the courage to take action. Now, put that in the context of a business context. So as an example, this and what I would say is I'm not the one making LinkedIn a compassionate place. It was already like that. It evolved that way.   Scott Shute This is why I have this job. The more my role is to codify it, to say, how did we get here? You know, if the executive team was going to leave LinkedIn and go to any other place, like what would the top three or five or 20 things that we would do, like how would we bring the magic somewhere else? And so this is what I mean. And I'll share some examples. So as an example, our head of sales will stand in front of whatever five thousand salespeople at sales kickoff and say something like, look, hey, our job as salespeople is to provide long term value.   Scott Shute So don't sell something our customers don't need just so you can hit your quota. Hmm. Right. And that's I was a salesperson too at 25. That's not how I was taught. Or in product development, you know, every week we have four or five or eight product reviews, and this is kind of like Shark Tank without the attitude, you know, a product manager will come to the product executive team and say, all right, well, here's the next revision of my product and what we expect to happen.   Scott Shute And something like, OK, Will, if we do X, Y and Z, we're going to result in 13 percent more engagement. In other words, 13 percent more clicks on the site. And the first question, if the person doesn't answer it themselves, the first question is always, all right, well, how is the member experience and the customer experience? And if the answer is, oh, well, hey, did I mention it was 13 percent more clicks than the meeting just stops and then it becomes an object lesson on our first principle, our number one value, which is members first.   Scott Shute And so these types of things are built into our culture. But it goes back to this to I have the capacity to be aware of others and wish the best for them and then the courage to take action, meaning sometimes, you know, we deeply understand our customers. We deeply are trying to solve their problems. And sometimes I need to do something for them. That's not great for me either. The company in the short term. But I know that over the long term, it's going to be better for both of us.   Scott Shute We're going to provide long term value and in the long haul will be more successful financially and as a company in general. Right.   Liesel Mertes You know, the question that that prompts in thinking about operationalising and also potential pain points, I find sometimes in company cultures there can be a focus on the customer, the member, whatever the title is, and that sometimes that happens at the cost of the employee experience. You know, where we're driving, for results, you know, whatever whatever metric is held up there. How are you taking some of that same degree of intentionality, especially in a year that has been so full of disruptive life events, death, job loss, relationship transition and operationalising internal compassion in those shows?   Liesel Mertes And and I assume that, like everybody else, it's kind of been a finding your way in the midst of that.   Scott Shute Yeah, there's I think business is best-run not by writing in a thousand places, a thousand sorry, a thousand page playbook, but by these high level things. And then each situation is different. So compassion goes back to it's a balance for all of the stakeholders, not just the shareholders, meaning a company who takes care of their customers, as we described, but also takes care of their employees as described, you know, have an awareness, a mindset of wishing the best and courage to take action and the shareholders.   Scott Shute So you have to stay in business in order to meet your vision. Right. In addition to the broader environment, you know, the community that you work in, the broader global environment you live in. So when we're creating this, when we're moving from me to we thinking, I think that has compassion at the roots of it. And each situation brings up a different set of solutions.   Scott Shute There are sometimes where we need to do absolutely the right thing for the shareholders, you know, and there's sometimes we need to do absolutely the right thing for the employees or the customers or our neighbors and next to the buildings where we work, whatever it is.   Scott Shute But if I'm trying to do something that for the long term is best for the whole, that's when we win. So what does that mean on the ground? Well, let's say that we have a call center in India and in the city where they're in. They can't even get to the office or they can't. They're worried about their health. There might be a time when we just need to close our customer service center for a day or several days knowing that it's not great for our customers, but our employees need to take care of themselves.   Scott Shute And sometimes the opposite is true. Sometimes employees need to work extra hard to take care of our customers, but it's finding the balance over the long haul that is important.   Liesel Mertes What are you taking away as valuable lessons from a leadership level of what, supporting people well, during disruption, looks like?   Scott Shute Sure. Well, it for sure starts at the top at the language that people are using. So there's a couple of things that have happened. One is, you know, when we do company meetings in the old days, like every other company, C levels are standing on stage. Everybody else is kind of watching and there's a separation between us. Well, now we do the company meeting and the same sea levels are at home. You know, we're on Zoome or whatever the technology is.   Scott Shute We see their dogs walking by or their kids or, you know, we have technical failures. They have technical failures, just like we all have rain. And it has humanized it has equalized us in terms of that. We're all people like we're all humans first and workers somewhere second or down the line. And so as a leader, if I can be conscious about this, it's it's being more vulnerable. It's talking about my own challenges, but it's also a recognition of everybody else's challenges.   Scott Shute And, you know, early on, our leaders were very clear and saying, hey, look, you and your family, your health, your physical, your mental health are the most important things to us. So please do what you need to do. The work will be here when you get back, you know, and that was the that was the messaging. But then it was also in our policies and everything that we did that supported that messaging.   Scott Shute So I think this is it as a leader, be vulnerable and then be aware and treat people as people, treat them like you want to be treated like if your grandma or the person you treasured most in life worked at this company, how would you treat her?   Liesel Mertes Yeah, there's a good grounding question. What is   Liesel Mertes So pulling back a little bit in your book, The Full Body. Yes. And in your work and mission in general, building compassion in our lives and our workplaces, I imagine that there could be some pushback that you receive from other people who have risen to executive positions within their companies. What is some of the most common pushback that you hear when you talk about building compassion at work?   Scott Shute Right. I think usually it's a misunderstanding of what compassion means. People often think that it sounds soft or it's just about loving each other or some like they put you know, they even make that. They even make that voice. It's soft. It's about loving, you know, airy fairy. And they have their hands in the air while they're doing them. And this is not what compassion is all about. Right? It takes real courage. Like, I think it's much harder to be a compassionate manager than to be a command and control jerk manager.   Scott Shute It's super easy to stand up on your pedestal and say, just look, I told you what to do. Just do it. Come on, why haven't you done it? And then scream at people when they don't do. Exactly. You know, it's managing out of fear. That's super easy. That takes no skill, but to be compassionate means you deeply understand other people means you have to take the time to listen. And sometimes compassion requires a strength that you really have to work up to.   Scott Shute Right that strength to have the hard conversation. You know, if somebody's struggling, the strength to really find out why and to in some cases either coach them up or eliminate their role or move them on to another role, these are things that require a strength of our own character and conviction and values. And it's not easy at all. So usually it's a misconception of what it means. And then when you get down to it and we say things like like I was talking about the salesperson or the product person, they're like, oh, yeah, well, of course you put customers first.   Scott Shute But then when we really dig into the conversations, like, do you have the courage to put the customer first when it's hard? Yeah, it takes real courage. Do you have the courage to put your employees first when needed to? You know, so it's a lot harder than it sounds. It's easy to understand, but it's hard to put into practice.   Liesel Mertes Right. I'm a I'm reminded when you you talked about that somewhat easy default behavior that can happen. That's an avatar that in my training's I'll introduce people to one of these default behaviors that we go to in the face of other people's pain, because it's how we've had to survive some of our own psychological, emotional, spiritual pain. And that my character I term the the Buck-Up Bobby, the just have to keep going. And whether it's, you know, a Commiserating Candace or a Cheer-Up Cheryl, these these postures that we take on to avoid some of the the skill of going deep, of being present.   Liesel Mertes You know, you you mentioned in your book and I deeply resonated with it, that our deepest need is to be seen, heard and acknowledged and both in our successes on our average days and especially on the days where, you know, everything feels like it has gone sideways.   Liesel Mertes In your capacity as a worker, as a leader, how did you personally skill up? Because your book is, you know, sprinkled throughout are anecdotes of having meaningful conversations with, you know, someone who worked under you, who is deciding, you know, to start a new relationship or to pursue graduate education.   Liesel Mertes Do you remember feeling out of your depth and like you needed to skill up? How did that process go for you as you acquired the skills necessary to get where you are?   Scott Shute Sure. So part of it I always wanted to be a manager. Like I. I was always interested in psychology and the way our minds work. And I tended to be when I was an individual contributor as a salesperson, I tended to be somebody that people would come to ask for advice. And so it took me a while, but I figured out how to start being a manager. I had to change industries, you know, to be a manager.   Scott Shute And I remember that job was the most stressful job I ever had. And I was 29 and leading a team of, I don't even know, eight people or 10 people. And that I was that was a job I was freaking out the most in not leading a thousand people organization, but leading eight for the first time because you have to figure out like oh whoa, this is totally different. Like this person's career is dependent on me. There a lot as dependent on me.   Scott Shute And I felt that weight and it didn't happen all at once. But, um, but in every conversation, you know, you get that feeling in your stomach like, oh, that went really well. Or I know that could have gotten better. Yeah. And so over time I scaled up by you know, I got coaching certified. I took extra trainings on how to be a manager, how to be a better listener. And I was just also reliant on my I've always had a deep kind of personal development bent.   Scott Shute So reading books and, you know, going to classes and just continually trying to learn to to be better at it. So it seemed like most things it comes with a failure. And I don't mean that in the big way, but like doing something and walking away from it, going that could have been better. Yeah.   Liesel Mertes Yeah. At its at its worst it can be the, the unrelenting voice that is always desiring improvement that you have both give space to you as a potential for good, but also reign in in those moments. That's right. Leave me alone.   Scott Shute That's right.   Liesel Mertes It was good enough.   Scott Shute Well this is this is one of the hardest challenges in development in, you know, how do we be a hard charger, whatever you want to think about that, how do we be super successful and how do we have a mindfulness practice or be a good person or continuing developing, you know, on these softer skills?   Scott Shute And I struggled with that for a really long time because   Scott Shute I have been at other companies where I'd look up at the roster of the C suite and think to myself, oh, my God.   Scott Shute Like, do you have to be a jerk to be a VP here? I'm like, is this that's I don't want to do it. And and then I had have now had the luxury of working at other companies and especially LinkedIn, where in fact jerks are not allowed. I could look at the entire C suite and go, I'd be proud to be any one of those people or to work for any one of those people. And realizing that some companies and some leaders and some organizations have figured this out, like there is a way for each of us to be successful and to be a good person.   Scott Shute They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I do think they go together at the highest levels.   Liesel Mertes Well, and what what I have found also as I have worked with companies domestically. Internationally, in a small, medium, large, especially over the last year, is that. There's there's still an element almost of permission that is needed to be able to see people in top levels of influence and scope being able to have these moments of weakness, you know, not not failure, but to but to say like this actually is really hard. Like we we have our kids schooling at home.   Liesel Mertes And I feel like it's just kind of overwhelming or I just want to bury someone within the last week. And I'm not fully OK for this meeting because there's only things that people are in the hard driving cultures where leadership hasn't purposefully wanted to be more connected and more human. There's a tremendous amount of just having to absorb stuff, defer those messy, both bodily feelings and also emotional ones, which just wreaks havoc. Yeah. In the long run,   Scott Shute These, I'm going to reframe the weakness to vulnerability.   Liesel Mertes Yes.   Scott Shute When we express our vulnerabilities, it's actually a real, real strength as a leader when you know, when done appropriately. Because people want to identify with the people that lead them, right? And if someone is they see as perfect or, you know, then it's like, oh, I'm not like them. I can't ever become like them. But if they see leaders as, oh, wow, I really see myself in them and I aspire to be someone like that today, I aspire to be more like them today.   Scott Shute That's really, really powerful. And it is accelerated by these leaders ability to be vulnerable, to be real. It's actually counterintuitive, but but showing some vulnerability now and then is a real strength.   Liesel Mertes Yeah, I like I like that pivot towards vulnerability. Tell me you introduced the concept near the end of the Book of microcompassions in the workplace. I really liked that term. Tell me more about some of the power that you're seeing of microcompassions in the workplace.   Scott Shute Sure. Well, we're probably familiar with micro aggressions, right. So I was trying to figure out what the balance of that is. Not that it solves every microaggression, but a micro compassion is just this idea that compassion doesn't have to be complicated. It's just the simplest, simplest things like smiling at someone or saying, hi, you know, so you're in the grocery line. And instead of just being lost in our phones or we're waiting to check out, like, why not say hi to somebody and ask them a question that gets them started?   Scott Shute Because going back to what is one of our deepest needs, our deepest need is to feel connected, to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be heard, ultimately, to be loved. And we don't have to go all the way to love right there in the grocery store. But how about seen and acknowledged and heard to feel connected? And so we can do this at work by saying hi, by smiling, by remember someone's hobbies, you know, it's like, oh, hey, Colin, did you have you been surfing lately or, you know, have you been fishing lately or whatever?   Scott Shute Knitting, you know, what's the what's the latest project you're working on? Or ask about their daughter or their son or something they're excited about. It just shows that you remember and you are seeing them as a person. And let's see what's another or you know, sometimes we have these meetings either by Zoom or we're in person and somebody hasn't said something for a long time. It's just bringing them in like, oh, Katie, we haven't heard from you for a while.   Scott Shute I'd really love to hear what you have to say about this topic. Anything that we can do to create more of the we and less of the me moves us forward and helps people feel connected.     Liesel Mertes Well, and creating these cultures of care. Yeah, I talk about how. It's a competitive advantage for you, it comes out in employee attraction and retention and how people are able to survive, stabilize and return to thriving when things go sideways. I imagine at Linked In, as it is so much about connection at work, you actually know that the numbers behind the LinkedIn matrix are seeing what are being reported in jobs reports, which is that companies, especially right now, as we are in May of twenty twenty one, they are looking to hire.   Liesel Mertes You know, we're ramping back up. It is difficult to find people talk a little bit about. I'd love to hear. Yeah. Just compassion and a culture of it as the competitive advantage and how you succeed and how you pull in the right people to accomplish what people classically talk about. As you know, the the more business-y ends of your your profit and loss.   Scott Shute Sure. I will get there. But first, I'm going to digress into the history of work for just a real quick second.   Liesel Mertes Yes. I love a good digression.   Scott Shute So we started start, I don't know, at some point there were kings and slaves, like when we were building the pyramids 5000 years ago and workers were not highly regarded. And we had the agrarian age for a long time where you had landowners and slaves or non land owners and workers were not highly regarded. And then in the industrial age, you know, you imagine a factory where with a thousand seamstresses or people on an assembly line all making the same thing again, workers not highly regarded.   Scott Shute Well, now you fast forward to today and a company like LinkedIn and not everybody has gotten are not everybody's in this position. But at LinkedIn, we don't have any hard assets. Right? We're not selling cars or copper or commodities. All we have is information. And so that means that the number one asset we have are the employees. And so we want our employees to have we want them to be at their best, i.e. the mindfulness programs.   Scott Shute And then we want to create an environment where they can do their best work, where they where they feel wanted. Now, as a worker now in Silicon Valley, the power is in the workers hands. Right. So an engineer in Silicon Valley can write their own ticket. They can work wherever they want because they're in such such high demand. This is the opposite of where we were 5000 years ago. And so people want to work in places where they are valued.   Scott Shute They want to work in places where their company is doing good things in the world, you know, where they are trying to make a difference, where there's a purpose driven. They want to work for good leaders, people who care about them, people who are honest and have the same set of values that they do. So this whole idea of creating and we don't even have to use the word compassion, but a culture where people are valued, where it's about the we instead of the few me, where it's about the we of the world instead of just the me of the company.   Scott Shute People want to work in those environments and over time they'll vote with their feet. You know, people don't leave jobs. They leave managers. Right. But they also will be disenfranchised by companies who are, you know, not that honest or they're doing bad things or create an environment where the bad seeds get bigger stages. So it is it's a competitive advantage over time in the talent that you attract. But it's also a competitive advantage in terms of the quality of products and services you end up offering your customers.   Liesel Mertes Absolutely. I appreciate the added coloring of the history of work, and I like that I like that to thank you for that digression.   Liesel Mertes You've written this book. You've launched it in the midst of pandemic time. Still tell our listeners a little bit about The Full Body yes. And what made you write it when you did?   Scott Shute Sure. Well, I've been thinking about writing a book for 35 years since I was a 15 year old in my ninth grade English class. I always knew I'd write a book. And every time I sat down or virtually sat down to write it, it wasn't there.   Liesel Mertes  Can I ask, did it as like, did you know what kind of book was it? Fiction or poetry? It was just going to be a book.   Scott Shute I just knew I would write a book. Like, I just I just had that knowing and and I figured it would be something about my life journey. But, you know, when you're 15, you don't have much of a life journey to write a book about. So I got to go live first. And then in December of 2019, I'm coming home with an from an event with a friend and my friend is driving and I'm in the passenger seat and gets this funny look and he goes.   Scott Shute The universe has told me to tell you it's time to write your book. Yeah, and I kind of checked in. It's like, wait, does it feel right? It's like, oh, yeah, it does. It does feel right. And the timing was just, of course, just, you know, it all lined up. I found an editor. She helped me create an outline because I never wrote a written a book before to turn my hundred stories into 35 or 40 stories and put them in order.   Scott Shute And then I just started writing. And then exactly at the time it was time to start writing is when the quarantine happened. And so I traded commuting time for essentially meditating and writing time. And the book came in 10 or 11 weeks, which, according to my publisher, is extraordinarily fast. But it was time. And then, you know, now it's a year later. This is the wild part about the publishing industry. It takes a while to get it out there.   Scott Shute And so releasing of, you know, kind of hopefully towards the end of the pandemic when they can actually. Yeah. You know, the people can actually get out. And but but I think that what I'm talking about, these things that I'm talking about are universal. It's talking about really finding our true selves right. When we when and when you are deeply aware of our own selves, our own values, what's really important to us. And then we make decisions based on what's important.   Scott Shute This is, I think, what we're all going through. I mean, in the last year, how many people do you know have moved or they've gotten divorced or ended their relationships or started relationships or changed jobs? To me, it seems like those big life events are on turbo. And, you know, part of it. Yeah, it's the challenge, the crucible of what we've gone through. But part of it is people are getting they're like, no, I know who I am.   Scott Shute And I I need to be something different than who this is right here. I'm making a change. And that's what this book is about.   Liesel Mertes Well, and even in that story of some of the, you know, writing with a colleague who who spoke that it was time, there's a thread that goes through of a paying attention to to the concrete, to the mystical, to the range in between of what is going on within our life story. So even the story of that, the final nudge from a pandemic and from a friend that are in line with some of the themes.   Scott Shute Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, in my own life, I believe that, you know, science from the universe, whatever you want to call that thing, the divine, whatever are all around us. You know, I see signs in billboards and fortune cookies and license plates in front of me not all the time, but they'll glow. I call it the golden tongue wisdom. Like, they'll just light up and the message will just match, like something I've needed to hear.   Scott Shute And because I believe it and because I then act on some of those insights, like more of it happens. And so I believe that life happens this way. But or and if someone believes that life doesn't happen that way and there are no science and it's just the way it is, then, you know, that's how their life happens. I believe that's true to me.   Liesel Mertes I deeply resonate with that. The the receptivity and the expectation leads to a very different level of attentiveness and receiving. That's true.   Scott Shute Yeah, receiving and then action, I think, you know, so if we get a message and then we're like, I'm going to do anything, well, then I think it's less likely that we'll be, you know, that the science will show up the next time. Yeah.   Liesel Mertes Well, thank you for for sharing in The Full Body, yes, as listeners, if their interest has been piqued as they are paying attention to their life and even to this moment as they're listening and think maybe this is for me, where's the best place for them to go to get a copy?   Scott Shute Sure. Well, you can get a copy wherever books are found, Amazon and Barnes and Noble and everywhere else. I learned something new in the process, like if you have an independent bookstore that you love, you can actually buy online at bookshop.Org. And if and if you designate your local bookstore, they will get the profits from that book from online. I think that's really, really cool. I did not know that coming. If you want to know more about me or the book, you can check out my website at Scottshute.com or the fullbodyyes.com either way, or follow me on LinkedIn for kind of daily updates.   Scott Shute And where else? Oh, if you're into meditation, I'm on INSIGHT. Timer And about every two weeks I do a live event on Insight Timer where you can do a I often am talking about compassion and compassion practices, but that's another place to find me.   Liesel Mertes And Scott, as you are paying attention to your life, do you have a sense of the what next? I realized that you took a year ago and that is now out in the world. And we might think that this is your current work, which I know it's a part of your current story, but we're particularly excited about right now.   Scott Shute It's in this moment I'm first I'm giving this book some time and time and attention to breathe. I'm taking and taking a couple of months away from LinkedIn just to focus on the book release and then I'll go back. But I'd love to spend the next part of my career really diving into the operationalising of compassion, because there's there's I think that's my unique place in the world. Like I've spent time as an executive, but I've also spent time in a really deep way as a seeker and as a, you know, a cleric.   Scott Shute I'm a member of the clergy and there's not that many of us. And so I'd love to find a way in really simple and secular terms of how to bring. These divine concepts, really, of compassion and love into the workplace in a way that everybody just goes, oh yeah, like, yeah, why aren't we doing it that way?   MUSICAL TRANSITION   If you are interested in getting The Full Body Yes, finding out more about Scott and his mindfulness offerings, or even seeing some of his beautiful photos, those links are in the show notes.    Here are three key takeaways from our conversation Practice micro-compassions today.Asking a colleague about their life outside of work, connecting with a smile or small talk.  These moments of connection are incredibly powerful.  Compassion is a competitive advantage for companies, especially in today’s knowledge economy where people have options and are, as Scott noted, voting with their feet.What are you doing to create a culture where compassion, this empathy-in-action, is given and received regularly? I like how Scott broke down what compassion looks like at work.He described it as “How should I act at work if my grandma or if someone that I loved most in the world worked here?”  This is a good guiding sentiment for the day.    OUTRO   Links:   To find out more about Scott and The Full Body Yes:  https://www.scottshute.com/   Resources to Operationalize Mindfulness: From Wisdom Labs:  https://wisdomlabs.com/Mindfulness-Kit/ More on Mindful Workplaces:https://www.mindfulworkplacemovement.com/playbook    

- Mark Vroegop I mean, it's just so private and so painful and so isolating at so many levels. And that's why I said grief isn't tame, because part of the viciousness of it is its unpredictability. Yeah, something can remind you, something can be a trigger. And it's just it's it's not controllable. It's not tameable. And I think understanding that is actually really helpful   INTRO Grief can rob you of language.  The feelings are so totalizing, so big and unwieldy.  You don’t know when or if the pain will end and the people around you seem to have little more to offer than trite platitudes like “It’s always darkest before the dawn.”   If you have been that grieving person, feeling so very alone with no one to listen or respond to your cry of pain, or if you have been that awkward friend or colleague, fumbling around for the right words and finding none, than this episode is for you.  Because this episode is all about lament.    Lament is a language of pain, of giving voice to the sorrow.  And my guest today is no stranger to lament.  In fact, Mark Vroegop has written a book on the topic called Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy.    The book is borne out of his life experience and the death of a daughter. But I will let him tell you more about that in the course of our interview.    Mark Vroegop is the Lead Pastor at College Park Church, a church on the northside of Indianapolis.  And, on a personal level, Mark has powerfully intersected with my own journey of pain and grief.  He was the one who stood graveside when our daughter, Mercy’s, body was lowered into the ground.  Sharing our pain and giving voice to our grief.  His honest reckoning with his own struggle and, ultimately, hope has ripple effects into my work as a Workplace Empathy Consultant.  So I am glad to welcome him to the show today.    And, just to note, Mark’s story is deeply intertwined with his Christian faith.  For those of you who do not share his faith, there might be language or concepts that are foreign to you, I welcome you to listen, as we listen to all of our guests, with a welcoming curiosity, embracing the concepts and wisdom that finds resonance with your spirit and letting anything else pass along.    And for those of you that are rooted in the Christian tradition, I believe that Mark’s writing and story could deepen your understanding of how the language of lament allows you to hold both grief and sorrow without having to just plaster a happy, religious platitude over your pain.    A little bit more about Mark:  he has taken up roasting his own coffee beans in the midst of the pandemic.  He loves the outdoors, although his is quick to clarify that he and his family no longer sleep in tents.    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, we love the outdoors, love anything exercise related outside of a big park nearby. Here you go. Creeks, my favorite place to go, kind of my happy place. And we are big campers. So when I say camper, think glampers.   - Mark Vroegop So we have a travel trailer that we now have that we've upgraded from a pop up. And we love just taking that thing out on a Friday, Saturday and enjoying the outdoors and some quiet. And we're looking forward to more opportunities to do that here soon.   Mark is the father to four living children.    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, so we have four children. We have three boys who are adults, twin boys. Our number one number two are out of college and one is married and two others are getting married soon.   Mark Vroegop We have a daughter who's in high school and mother in law that lives with us and a dog named Stella.   - Mark Vroegop So we have a really full and vibrant home with people coming in and out all the time and just love the opportunity to be in their lives and are thankful that they live in close proximity here to Indianapolis. So we can see them quite often.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, what a robust household and what a number of transitions you guys are collectively standing on, on the brink of.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we are in the middle of all kinds of transitions, that's for sure.   Yeah. Tell me a little bit.   - Liesel Mertes We're going to be talking about disruptive life events, the comforters that come alongside as poorly and the moment.   - Liesel Mertes And I know that your journey into that, both as a writer, pastor, speaker began from a really personal place. Would you set the scene of that story for us?   - Mark Vroegop Sure. So our first children were twins, so pregnancy wasn't a problem for us. In fact, the problem was we were too pregnant and my wife carried our twins to thirty nine and a half weeks. So she was a college athlete and twins were born six pounds, seven ounces, six pounds, 11 ounces. Kendall came on three days later. Just beautiful, fairly easy pregnancy apart from enormous discomfort. Third sons born, no complications whatsoever.   - Mark Vroegop Healthy baby boy and then 2003 we were pregnant with our daughter that we learned she was a daughter, Sylvia. And throughout the pregnancy, my wife just had this this fear that something wasn't right and she can be more fearful than what she would like.   - Mark Vroegop And so we just were praying through all of that. And at the very end of the pregnancy and their ninth month. Thirty nine weeks, actually, just a few days before delivery and Sunday night, she said something doesn't feel right.   - Mark Vroegop And I thought, wow, she's just nervous and fearful, like pregnancy is coming here to an end. And I get that. And we went to the doctor's office just to be sure, because she hadn't felt any movement. In a while and in the doctor's office, we found out the tragic news that are in utero daughter at thirty nine and a half weeks, just like I said a few days before delivery had mysteriously died and then she had to give birth to a deceased baby.   - Mark Vroegop We named her Sylvia.   - Mark Vroegop And yeah, that was not just a shock, but a trauma that really deeply affected us, because prior we had, you know, had all kinds of difficulties. Life wasn't easy, but nothing of this sort of caliber. Persay. So, yeah. And from there, we just then tried to begin moving on and healing and in that process had multiple miscarriages, had what was is called a blighted ovum. So we thought we were pregnant, dared to hope that we were pregnant, got excited, went for an ultrasound, only to find out that there's no baby there.   - Mark Vroegop And we had actually caught a miscarriage before we knew it. And so it just it was this. Year, two year journey of just immense, gut wrenching, everyday kind of grief that sometimes came in a tsunami and other times came like the tide that would come in and go out.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it was quite a journey to try and navigate through. So that's the hard providence that the Lord graced us with as a huge lesson in a way that we've also been able to help speaking to other people's pain as well.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. For sharing a little bit about Sylvia, I. I have your book in front of me. Dark clouds, deep mercy. And you write in there, My grief was not tame. It was vicious. Could you could you open up? You know, there's there's the overview. But I imagine in that first year or two, what did what did a particularly vicious moment that comes to mind for you look like?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it was one in particular is laying next to my wife and used a few days after we had buried Sylvia and she's just crying in a way that I never heard her cry before.   - Mark Vroegop And there was just this bone chilling fear of what if my wife is never happy again?   - Mark Vroegop What if our marriage is going to be in trouble? Because, you know, so many couples, when they lose a child, it creates an unusual level of stress.   - Mark Vroegop You know, how how do I help my kids move on and process grief when. You know, I don't even know how to process my own grief and and then just to the real pressure of, you know, in pastoral ministry and every week there's hospital visits and babies that are born and messages that need to be preached.   - Mark Vroegop And so, you know, and then when it's a miscarriage or we're trying to get pregnant and we're struggling, you know, it's not as though I can share a prayer request with the church. Hey, my wife got her period this week. Pray for us.   - Mark Vroegop I mean, it's just so private and so painful and so isolating at so many levels. And that's why I said grief isn't tame, because part of the viciousness of it is its unpredictability. Yeah, something can remind you, something can be a trigger. And it's just it's it's not controllable.   - Mark Vroegop It's not tameable. And I think understanding that is actually really helpful because it tends to normalize what at times you feel like is a sort of a crazed perspective on I've never felt this way and I don't know that it's sustainable.   - Mark Vroegop And by God's grace, it we made our way through it as the Lord helped us. But I felt like in the book and in helping people with their grief, to be honest, that no grief is not tame and it is vicious.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Mark and his story soon.  I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  The rate of change and disruption in 2021 is unrelenting.  As employers adjust to new rhythms and regulations, so you know if you are giving your people what they need to stay engaged and thrive?  Empathy training is an essential element of building a culture of care that supports mental health and values the whole person.  With keynote options, certificate programs, and coaching options, let Handle with Care Consulting help you confidently, consistently offer meaningful support when it matters most   MUSICAL TRANSITION     - Liesel Mertes As you're carrying that grief, who who did you find, especially in that, you know, immediate two year people? That we're really your people, that we're more in the know and actively supporting you.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, for sure. Family was super helpful, you know, extended family member walking out of the delivery room prior to Sylvia being born.   - Mark Vroegop And I grabbed my brother in law who's a dear friend, and I said, I need you to do something for me. And he said, What's that? And I said, Here's a camera. I need you to come in to this delivery room and I need you to take pictures, because this is all that we got. Yeah. And I mean, what a huge gift. Had two pastors who literally when I walked into the birthing room. I saw a little signia, picture on the door, which I knew was a symbol that a stillbirth was going to happen in this room from my chaplaincy orientation at the hospital when I saw it, it just my knees literally gave out and they literally carried me across the threshold into the room.   - Mark Vroegop It was a powerful kind of metaphor of their help.   - Mark Vroegop And then there were just other people we didn't locate our counsel or our support. And one particular person for some folks, that might be helpful.   - Mark Vroegop In our case, we had sort of a team of folks who didn't even know they were part of a team, quite frankly, former seminary professors, other people who had walked through seasons of difficulty, who at different times we were able to, you know, to talk with.   - Mark Vroegop And I think more than anything, besides just talking to the Lord, my wife and I, by God's grace, were able to process our grief and pain together.   - Mark Vroegop And so in that respect, my wife was my greatest advocate in the midst of grief and I hers, although that kind of bounced back and forth depending upon how each of us were doing throughout the course of a week.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I, I, I hear and resonate with. Some of the ways that especially, as you know, partners and spouses in the death of a child, you know, for for Luke and I as as Mercy died, you would want to think if anyone else understood what I was going through, it should be this person.   - Liesel Mertes You know, they've also lost this child.   - Liesel Mertes And there we found that there were ways that, yes, we really could be of help to each other, come alongside each other. But then the ways in which you miss the other person can just feel so painful.   - Liesel Mertes Like if you can't see me in this or if you're wanting, you know, if I'm feeling like I need to be with people and you want to be alone in those those aspects of distance could just in our story feel so wounded.   Liesel Mertes And yeah, I hear I hear dynamics of the complication that it can be to both support and miss each other in shared grief.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, very much so.   - Liesel Mertes Is it OK with you if I read you a short section from the introduction to your book? OK, you were talking about the comfort that was given to you at that time and you said, "When occasionally I candidly shared a few of the struggles of my soul. Some people reacted with visible discomfort. Others quickly moved to a desperate desire to, quote, find the bright side, a quick change of the subject in awkward silence or even physically excusing themselves to escape the tension.   - Liesel Mertes When people stayed in the conversation, they often responded in unhelpful ways. In moments of attempted comfort, people said things like, I'm sure the Lord will give you another baby or maybe more people will come to the faith because of the death of your daughter. Or the Lord must know he can trust you with this. Every person meant well. I appreciated their attempts to address our pain, but it became clear that most people did not know how to join us in our grief."   - Liesel Mertes That is in deep alignment with what I hear again and again in my work with businesses. But I would love for you to just expand a little bit on that sentiment. What was it like to absorb those misses from well-meaning people?   - Mark Vroegop Well, it was it was hard, but I don't blame them. I mean, grief is scary. It's we. Look at loss, and we want people to not be sad because there's something about loss and death and sorrow that just penetrates our sort of self-sufficient mindset as human beings.   - Mark Vroegop So grief is just terribly uncomfortable. And if you don't understand it or don't have a language to engage with it. My experience was, is that people and even I did this in pastoral ministry, we tend to revert to sort of these default positions that we think are helpful but end up not being helpful at all and then not having the skill set or the competency to walk with somebody in pain by having the courage and the competency to know it's OK for me not to say anything right now   - Mark Vroegop Because our bias towards fixing or explaining or wrapping it up in a nice little bow is often, in my experience, not designed to really comfort the griever. It's designed to relieve the tension that the person observing the grief feels. And so, you know, that's where I think lament is helpful, doesn't solve all the problems. But I think that gives us a language that we can sort of plumb the depths of deep sorrow with a little bit of a framework or some guardrails, if you will, to help us know what to do and maybe what not to do.   - Liesel Mertes Let me jump in there, because I know for some listeners, this might be one of the first times apart from, like studying a vocabulary list in high school or for the jury that they have encountered the word lament.   - Liesel Mertes Could you unpack that term? Tell us more about how lament has been helpful.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah. So lament, broadly defined, could just be thought of as, you know, deep sorrow.   - Mark Vroegop But from a Christian perspective, when I talk as a pastor and when I think about biblical lament, I define lament in my book as a prayer in pain that leads to trust. Each one of those words is really important. It's a prayer. So it's what people do. They talk to God. It's a prayer in pain. So something difficult has created this this unique kind of prayer. That's a prayer in pain that leads. It's designed to be process oriented.   - Mark Vroegop So it moves us from where we are to where we need to be. And it leads to trust. So in the Bible meant always has a resolution, even though the pain is it resolved. The prayer has a resolution where the person works through. I'm going to turn to God, I'm going to lay out what's wrong. I'm going to claim the promises of the Bible and I'm going to choose to trust and then I to do that over and over and over and over.   - Mark Vroegop And what's fascinating is the Bible is filled with this language, the book of Psalms, the song Book of God's community. One out of every three songs is a lament. And that lament speaks to all kinds of different experiences, whether it's personal lament, corporate lament, repentance, lament or something. It's also called an precatory lament, like when injustice happens, what people say lament can be that language. So it's not just at a personal level, but even at a corporate level.   - Mark Vroegop Lament is the language of people who are in pain.   - Mark Vroegop And as they talk to God,   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, this this deep soul-ish movement into not hiding from the sorrow, but naming it and embracing that process.   - Liesel Mertes As you said, you you mentioned within that, you know, we read a little from the book Ways in which people missed you in your pain, some of these well-meaning turns of phrase that are much more to escape the discomfort of the moment.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of the best things that people did as they came alongside you and your family in those immediate stages of grief?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, presence mattered, like the ability to just be with us and to be quiet and to sit in our pain, the ability to just say I'm sorry and be OK with the tension of that grief, folks who simply tried to meet a need, brought meals, just tried to love us as human beings, not just as grievers, people who loved on our kids and helped them to know that they were special and important as mom and dad were in a hard and difficult place.   - Mark Vroegop And all the things the church did was they sent us to Florida for a period of time, maybe five to six days. And it's just a silly thing, you'd think. But they actually paid for us to go to to Disney World. And, you know, you lose a baby and then go to Disney World. But I'll just never forget walking through the streets of of Disney World there with the castle in front of me and my kids literally kissing on my wife's arm.   - Mark Vroegop And it was just really good for them to be happy for just a moment, even though we were deeply grieving.   - Mark Vroegop And I remember standing in line and my wife still showed the signs of pregnancy. And a woman, well-meaning, asked her, "how far along are you?" And I forget when my wife answered, but she mentioned something really graciously, just not giving her the whole story. But what do you say? I don't have a baby with me, but I look pregnant and, you know, so it was just and so here we are really grieving.   - Mark Vroegop But our kids were able to experience some level of of happiness and joy, which was our joy, too.   - Liesel Mertes I'm a I'm glad as a podcast host that you told that story because I I think of that community of people who.   - Liesel Mertes We just felt, you know, felt the goodness and the movement to send you that way, because as Luke and I walked our own journey with mercy, I think I think it was out of that story. I think we had heard you say that, that we we thought we we have to get out of you know, I really felt I have to get out of Indianapolis. We have to have a change of scenery. And it gave us the freedom.   - Liesel Mertes And I actually reached out to a business school professor and mentor at the time who I knew had an extra house in Arizona and said, can we can we just stay there?   - Liesel Mertes You know, my my daughter has just died and she so graciously let us stay. And it was such an important and a good time. And I had the same thing happen standing in line at the airport, some really well-meaning family who was just elated to think I was pregnant. So I connect deeply with that. And I it just makes me think of the ways in which we extend ourselves to bless people that are hurting, like the ripple effect of that goodness, you know, came down to my family, however, many years later through a colleague at a business school, you know, to to bless us and that kind of way.   - Liesel Mertes So I love the the legacy of blessing that comes out of that sort of attuned encouragement in the moment for sure.   - Liesel Mertes It also causes me to tuck away, I so seldom ever comment on a woman who looks pregnant after those sorts of experiences.   - Liesel Mertes I think you have no idea what is going on.    - Liesel Mertes And there are so many other ways to make small talk. If they want to tell you about their baby, they will.   - Liesel Mertes I have found in as I have worked with couples who have walked through miscarriage or even within, you know, Luke's own story, miscarriage is hard to bear. If it is acknowledged at all, it's often couched within the woman's experience, I remember a mutual friend of ours telling Luke, Gosh, I think this is probably sad for you.   - Liesel Mertes It can't be as hard as it is for Liesel. But, you know, and just kind of passing over.   - Liesel Mertes Did you find within your own experience that some of that misalignment or or failing to grasp how miscarriage could impact the life of a male partner was present?    - Mark Vroegop Yeah, that wasn't a huge issue for us. And I can understand why it would be for others. I would say that I did find that where I was processing and where Sarah was processing, that we were, in fact in different places as relates to miscarriages.   - Mark Vroegop So she felt that more deeply than than what I did. And that took us some time to be able to kind of work through or just, you know, I was sort of the one who was optimistic, like. Look, it's OK, we got time, you know, let's let's just keep trying, keep praying, and she it was deeper for her.   - Mark Vroegop It was. And it took me a while to realize that. And so, yeah, thankfully, nobody mentioned sort of that as a, you know, statement.   - Mark Vroegop I did find that I had to get my head around how to process my wife's grief differently than mine, so we were both were grieving but grieving in different ways and for different reasons. And sometimes that manifested itself in some pretty challenging ways.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that. What was important, as you learned and navigated that journey of sometimes misaligned grief?   Mark Vroegop Well, one was just trying to be sure that we were understanding where each other were, because, you know, the challenge with grief is it can make you really selfish.   - Mark Vroegop You've got every right in the world to only think of yourself. And grief tends to give you tunnel vision.   - Mark Vroegop I remember one time one of our biggest conflict moments came when I came home and Sylvia's room had been all set up for her.   - Mark Vroegop You know, we were expecting her to come home. So the crib was set up, all the clothes were out. And I came home and my wife was packing all of that up. She was taking the crib apart. And I was like, what do you what are you doing? And she's like, we're not going to get pregnant. And I want to take this down. And that crib and that stuff in that room was like a symbol of hope for me.   - Mark Vroegop And it was a vicious teaser to her or an accuser that this was never going to happen. So here we walk into the same room and I see it as a place of comfort and future. She sees it as a place of mocking.   - Mark Vroegop And yeah, that so that's just like one example of how we're coming at the same thing from two very different angles.   - Mark Vroegop I think it is important for folks to realize that their processing of grief can't be projected on other people. No two people grieve the same. And our tendency is to think that the way that I've grieved is the way that everybody should grieve because of how intense it is. Hard to imagine that anybody could grieve any other way in which I do because of how hard it is.   - Mark Vroegop So that would just be an example of how there were moments when we missed things and we just need to give each other a lot more space to grieve. Well, but also realizing to realize, but also to realize that we're not the only one grieving here just to be more sensitive to each other and by God's grace, that happen, but not without without some bumps along the way.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. There's David Kessler is a writer and psychologist and is he was talking about some of the numbers that are put to the number of marriages that fall apart in the aftermath of a child's death.   - Liesel Mertes One of the things that he has found in his counseling, study and research, he would say a huge contributor to that is just judgment of another person's grief process.   - Liesel Mertes And that really struck me. I was like, that rings true experientially of how that can underlie a lot of aspects of dysfunction as the volume is just so high, everybody is feeling what they feel pretty intensely.   - Liesel Mertes Sylvia died, there is the immediate grief journey, what has been how many years has it been now since her death?   - Mark Vroegop Well, I'm a terrible mental math guy, but she died in 2004. So 17 years, 17.   - Liesel Mertes You did it   - Mark Vroegop I did it   - Liesel Mertes Mental math, right there.   - Liesel Mertes What has been important in intermediate and long term grief as people have continued to support you?   - Mark Vroegop You know, I've got a pastor at my previous church that every birthday. That Sylvia would have had he sends me a text and just says, hey, just thinking of you today and praying for you means the world like it's just it's crazy how kind and helpful it is, because, you know, one of the deep pains, particularly with stillbirth or the loss of a child, is the loss of the future.   - Mark Vroegop And when somebody says, you know, how many kids do you have? Well, for the first year or so, we felt like we needed to say, you know, four because Sylvia counted. And then over time, after our other daughter, Savannah, was born, you know, we stopped adding. All of that into the equation and. So just the fact that folks remember and that she counts because she counts for us, she counts deeply.   - Mark Vroegop So those sort of moments, Christmases and and birthdays are extraordinarily, you know, important.   - Mark Vroegop And then also just folks who who saw the redemptive nature of what kind of God was doing in us through all of this that was meaningful as they would indicate or share how they saw God's grace shining through us in the midst of our brokenness and how helpful and instructive it was.   - Mark Vroegop So, so not forgetting and also helping in some measure to see over the long term the fruit that God was reaping was helpful, doesn't bring Sylvia back, but it does serve to help us to see how that.   Mark Vroegop Pain isn't pointless.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, those those questions, like the number of children in your household can can feel very tricky. I, I connect with that. I have I've had times where, you know, we have had five children and I've people have just asked me socially and I said, well, we have four and I will have a child with me say, no, we have we have five made conversation stream.   - Liesel Mertes And just to reflect on a. Yeah, how particular can be for those remaining children at various moments to want to hear that acknowledgement, even if I've gauged socially, like maybe maybe I won't say it now, maybe it's just not worth going into. And, yeah, those little reminders along the way.   - Liesel Mertes Your book, which I would love to hear more about, but it is full of ways in which you have taken some of your personal experience and it affects your practice with other people. I want to hear more about your book, but I want to start with that place.   - Liesel Mertes How how is your posture different now as a result of Sylvia in the way that you come alongside people in their grief and sorrow?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it's sort of like I speak a different dialect or even different language, so that when they're saying something, I sort of have a translator to know. I think I know what they're saying. Other people maybe have an experience. Deep levels of grief may not understand what the grieving person is trying to communicate. It certainly made me more aware of the nature of grief and lots of other spaces.   - Mark Vroegop And it. It made my first step to be one of deep sympathy and empathy with folks who are grieving and gave me a little bit of a resolve or a balanced conviction that it's OK for me not to have to fix this mess and just   - Liesel Mertes Can I pause for for just one second?   - Liesel Mertes I I'd love to dig a little bit deeper that you talked about that first inclination of empathy and being with what what does that look or sound like for you in different situations?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, it looks like being present. It looks like personal touch.   - Mark Vroegop It looks like saying I'm sorry. And in many cases it means being there silent with a grieving person.   - Mark Vroegop It's being OK saying I have no idea what to say right now and realizing that that's some of the most comforting things that you can say   - Mark Vroegop More, I think it just helps just to know maybe what not to say and to kind of resist the urge or inclination to to solve, to fix, to and to silence, to contain grief is a wave that just needs to be ridden with somebody as opposed to some problem that we need to solve.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I, I talk about that in my work, we have some some avatars we'll talk about. Are you manifesting as a Buck-Up, Bobby right now? Or a Cheer-Up Cheryl or a Fix-It Frank, amongst others, these postures that we take...Well, as you said, out of our own personal discomfort, the ways it triggers us, the way we feel inadequate or just.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, the desire to to make it better for someone and the release that can come in realizing there's there's not actually something to be said that magically makes all the pain of this better. And I can release myself from having to find that in this moment.   - Mark Vroegop Right, exactly.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us about your book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, Discovering the Grace of Lament.   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, throughout the years following Sylvia's death, I started just exploring kind of the contours of grief as I would read things in the Psalms.   - Mark Vroegop And started doing some teaching and kind of the darker Psalms, and when I would teach on them, people would kind of come out of the woodwork and like say things like, you just described what my last couple of years have been like. And then I did some teaching on the Book of Lamentations on Lamentations is the longest lament in the Bible. And it just became apparent that this language of lament was a gap that so many of us, including myself, just needed to think about.   - Mark Vroegop And, you know, most people don't set out to study lament. Usually lament finds them.   - Mark Vroegop Hmm. And as I began to investigate the subject more fully, began to realize that people need this language and it could be helpful, therapeutic, empowering in terms of helping and serving other people who are in the middle of their grief. And folks just started asking me, like, do you have anything else on this? And I was like, no, I don't. And have you written anything? Like, No, I haven't. And. Do you know anything that's out there that's, you know, theologically robust and, you know, compassionate?   - Mark Vroegop I'm like, there's just not much many books on this. And so I thought, well. Seems like maybe I should try to do something to meet that need, and so 2014 and 15 developed the idea and. Just wanted to try and do something that would help people, and quite frankly, I, I didn't didn't know if the book would be well received. When I first pitched it to some people in the publishing world, they were like, aren't we talking about.   - Mark Vroegop And I was like, I know, I get it. But let me explain this to you. And so, by God's grace, got the opportunity to publish the book. And it's it's proven to be way more helpful than what I thought. I knew people needed this language, but my experiencing in publishing the book is just really even proving it a 100 fold. Mm hmm.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and something that I love about the book is.   - Liesel Mertes It's it's full of your heart as someone who has grieved, as someone who has come alongside people in grief, it is both spiritual and conceptual, but even the last chapters that are eminently practical, how do we take this idea of, yes, I buy-in, lament is important and begin to integrate it into our practices and personal lives?   - Liesel Mertes You know, even even the movement that funerals are all celebrations of life. What does that, how does that constrain instead of release us in some of those ways?   - Liesel Mertes So it just comes through richly in your work   - Mark Vroegop Thank you.   What is one of the ways, you know?   - Liesel Mertes Publishing something like a book is is releasing its I imagine it could be like releasing a child into the world, like go forth and grow. What has been one of the most surprising and pleasing ways to you that your book has been used or made connections out in the world?   - Mark Vroegop Yeah, you know, the book released in 2019. And by. May of 2020, it had gotten into spaces and had been put in the hands of people that I would have never imagined would be reading it. And so it. And there's a book award called the ECPA Book Award, and and so that it won the Book of the Year award in Christian Publishing, and it just was stunning to me that in the midst of our sorrow and loss here, now we enter into a global pandemic where people are lamenting everything.   - Mark Vroegop And the way that lament serves not only for personal grief, like I thought that it would, but lament now has an expansion from a cultural standpoint at so many levels and then that. Led to another book that connects lament and racial reconciliation and how does lament play a role in that? And so what's been remarkable is just to see the way the language of lament is really helpful at so many levels and in ways and in places that I hadn't thought that it would be.   - Mark Vroegop And so I I didn't anticipate the book being very well received by God's grace. It has been. And I just think it. It's an example of how much grief and pain there is in the world and how much we need a language that can help us.   - Liesel Mertes Mark, are there any questions that it would be helpful for me to ask you that I have not yet asked you?   - Mark Vroegop Sometimes people wonder how exactly do I lament the back of the book? I even have some worksheets. And, you know, it's it's a helpful framework for processing through grief and for prayer, because laments involve kind of a movement of turn, complain, ask and trust. And so I, I use that as a regular prayer for him. Not every day, but each of those steps are super helpful. In fact, I've often recommended that somebody study, lament, psalm and look for those four key movements, turn, complain, ask and trust, see how the Bible expresses each of those four movements and then kind of on the other side of the page to write out your own prayer in light of what you see.   - Mark Vroegop The Psalmist praying. So, for example, Psalm 13. How long, oh, Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? And I find it really helpful to see that the Bible talks that way so that then I could write my own prayer and finish the sentence. How long will the Lord will?   - Mark Vroegop And, you know, every so many days I kind of need that prayer because my life got lots of grief in it. And so lament by using these varying forms or elements can can really be a helpful way to navigate difficult times by regularly turning, complaining, asking and trusting and doing that over and over and over and over.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. That's good. Thank you. Anything else that you would like to add?   - Mark Vroegop I just think it's wonderful that you're engaging in this space, because I think. People need to know how to help other people grieve, and it's one of the most important, one of the most transformative and one of the most complicated seasons of a person's life.   - Mark Vroegop So, you know, I've heard senior executives say you should always be reading a book on leadership.   - Mark Vroegop I think it's true. But it would also seem that every person ought to have some sort of competency in how to navigate grief, because either we're going to be grieving at some point in time or we're going to be in proximity to someone else who is grieving and in that. Opportunity, you can do a lot of really good stuff and be really helpful. I think it's presented a great opportunity for Grace to be extended to hurting people. And that's what people who are grieving the they need a lot of help.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't I couldn't agree more. As I say, I look back on my own training in, you know, master's degree in management studies.   - Liesel Mertes I thought, how is this such a complete oversight in the curriculum? Because if you manage any number of people for any amount of time, you will be managing someone and leading and being in relationship with someone who is grieving. And a non-acknowledgement or a misstep is its own form of mismanagement. And, you know, we can grow in this.   - Liesel Mertes And it's so good to have tools like your book to help people along the way.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark… I agree with Mark, we all need a competency with grief; it is a key part of leadership and just being human.Whether it is in our own life or in the lives of those we care about, hard things will come.  A language of lament that willingly looks at and whole-heartedly enters into pain is so essential for healing. If your interest has been piqued by Mark and his work, there is a link to his book in the show notes.  Some griefs cannot be fixed, they can only be carried.Sometimes silence and presence are the most powerful ways that you can come alongside another person.  Release yourself from the pressure to suddenly have the right thing to say.  Give a hug, bring some cookies. Through your empathy, your compassion, and your care, your can have ripple effects that extend way beyond a single moment.When you care for someone well, you are co-creating a wider culture of care.  The community that blessed Mark and his family with a trip led Mark to encourage Luke and I to take our children on a trip after the death of our daughter.  Their kindness poured into us in ways that are powerful.  Take heart, you might never know the full effects of your kindness in the life of another person.   OUTRO   You can find out more about Mark’s book, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy, here:  https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Clouds-Deep-Mercy-Discovering/dp/1433561484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534035599&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+clouds+deep+mercy

- Wendy Noe We are we have been dealing with a crisis with with the disease of addiction. And again, I think that we can see that because we're talking about it more than we've ever talked about it. And that's because we're seeing so many people affected by it. But it is a it's a huge health crisis that we're living in right now. It's just gigantic. And I don't think, quite honestly, we've seen the worst of it at this point.   INTRO Hi everybody.  Today we are talking about the disease of addiction.  There is so much important ground we are going to cover, including why it matters that we call addiction a disease.  Because this wasn’t the language that was used when I was a kid growing up in the “Just Say No” to drugs era.  And my guest today has a ton to share.  That is because this is Wendy Noe’s work.  She is the executie director of the Dove Recovery House in Indianapolis, which is a recognized residential program for women with substance abuse disorders.    But Wendy doesn’t just talk with us as a professional who works with women dealing with substance addictions, she talks to us as a woman who has been directly impacted by addiction. She walked with her brother as he spiraled deeper into addiction.  She helped check him into and watched him leave treatment programs and she has really, really good words to offer if you are just feeling at the end of your rope as you try to help someone you love who is grappling with their addiction.   As we dive in, a little bit more about Wendy.  She is from central Indiana, lived here her whole life, although she has a love for Michigan, particularly South Haven.     - Wendy Noe I just love the area. I love the peace of it all. I love the little bitty towns up there. I love the winetasting. I just feel like, you know, to be able to drive two hours, two 1/2 hours north and it's just such a peaceful getaway for me. Quiet's I love the nature. You know, her house is just a perfect space for me to retreat and just calm down from life. I just love it up there.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I love that. Well, in the Great Lakes are their own national treasure. I mean, they are these sweeping landscapes that really when people talk about the Third Coast, my my in-laws are from northern Minnesota. So when we encounter the Great Lakes, it's usually from the western side driving through Wisconsin and into Minnesota. But my sister has recently moved to Michigan and it's beautiful. We hadn't really done Michigan in the same way because we'd always been on the other side.   - Liesel Mertes But it's charming. And you can drive in Michigan forever like we we did a day coming through that Upper Peninsula and then all the way down to Ann Arbor.   - Liesel Mertes And I was like, it's been like, you know, eleven hours all in Michigan. I was stunned at how large it is.   - Wendy Noe It is. It's huge. And my husband and I always talk about retiring. And I mean, we're too young yet. But   - Wendy Noe He loves snow. He loves the winter. So he's always said he wants to move to Montana and snow and all cold things. And even though Michigan has a winter, I'm like, we could move to Michigan when we retire. You could have, you know, the cold and the snow. And yet I still get beach time in summertime.   - Wendy Noe Yes. So I don't know, maybe one day we'll find our way into Michigan as residents   - Liesel Mertes Michigan, Montana, those states.   Not that to the north.   - Liesel Mertes Well, it's it's a certain thing if you've grown up with snow and ice, like I grew up in the Midwest and it's you know, I similarly, I think about like it's like eight months of winter up in northern Minnesota. There's just a lot of winter. I mean, summers are great, but there's a lot of winter soon. So you have to have a hearty constitution.   - Wendy Noe Yeah, definitely.   - Liesel Mertes Well, which is probably why whether it was, you know, people of Dutch descent, you know, colonizing Michigan or the Scandinavians in northern Minnesota have been like, oh, yes, it was like this in the old country. You weren't shocked to come and find these brutal winters.   - Wendy Noe That's true. That's all you know.   - Liesel Mertes So you are married. You also have some teenagers in your home, is that right?   - Wendy Noe Yes, I have two daughters.   - Liesel Mertes OK, are they getting ready to graduate? Lower high school that have have   - Wendy Noe I have a freshman and a senior. Oh yeah. Yeah. So they're both June babies, so I have one getting ready to turn fifteen and one getting ready to turn eighteen.   - Wendy Noe So my life is. It's weird right now my baby is leaving me for college, and she's, you know, she I we have been very fortunate to not have senioritis and she's not been an unenjoyable teen. She's just this really impressive, amazing young lady. And I really enjoy being around her. And she's a huge help.   - Wendy Noe You know, my 15 year old or soon to be 15 year old, my freshman. She's like, I'll do it later. I'll do it later. You know, I'm certainly going to have the teen angst, I think, with her. And she's enjoyable and incredible in her own way. And I just love I'm blessed to have two amazing daughters.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, in I'm a couple of years behind, my eldest is thirteen. But I've been saying to people, I mean, we are we're having a recalibrating of our relationship to suit her age.   - Liesel Mertes And I think especially with your oldest, as they encounter these different life stages, we can be aware as parents of their need to skill up like, oh, they need additional skills and these are growth moments as they're entering. And but I I think there's a corollary that I experience in myself of being like, I've got a skill up as a parent for this new stage as well.   - Liesel Mertes You know, it requires different aspects of my, you know, my training and engaging as I engage with this new stage. And it sounds like you're on the brink of doing some of that as you have a child leaving the home,   - Wendy Noe You know, so that is one hundred percent spot on   - Liesel Mertes You talked about. Working throughout their growing up years and the different professional roles and capacities you've been in.   - Liesel Mertes You are in a leadership role at the Dove House. Would you tell me a little bit about your role there and about the Dove house and their mission writ large?   - Wendy Noe I would love to. I'm the executive director at Dove Recovery House for Women. I supervise a staff of 16 and Dove Recovery House provides a residential treatment for women with substance use disorder. We're the largest in Indianapolis. And and really, our program model is is really the only type of its kind in the state of Indiana.   - Wendy Noe We house 40 women every night. And, you know, we we serve the most vulnerable women in our community, women that have experienced homelessness and near homelessness, sex trafficking, prostitution, trauma, women without the ability to pay, women without health insurance who really need treatment but can't always afford or usually can't afford to go to those other places.   - Wendy Noe We've been around since 2000 and we've been recognized by the Department of Mental Health and Addiction and the Governor's next level recovery office as the best practice model for the state of Indiana that they would like to replicate. So I'm I'm really proud of that and how hard we've worked for it.   - Liesel Mertes And how many years have you been at the Dove house?   - Wendy Noe I've been here just over six years.   - Liesel Mertes OK, yeah. I have so many questions to come out in the course of our conversation about good ways to encounter people who are dealing with addiction issues, ways in which we compound the problem by our responses. I have a number of questions   - Liesel Mertes I would like to tie, also, a little bit, also to some of your own experience. I remember you telling me when you began on this learning curve at the Dove House, it helped you in kind of looking back at some of the experiences that you had with your brother within your personal life.   Liesel Mertes How how were those two like a, awarenesses coming together as you began at the Dove House?   - Wendy Noe It's really been a fascinating journey for me. And I've learned so much in my time here at Dove House. So a little background. I've always   - Wendy Noe I've spent my entire career in the nonprofit industry and working primarily in women's issues. And so I was ready for a new role, a new chapter and executive director position. And this one opened up here at Dove House. And I didn't really know a lot about addiction and substance use disorder, and I certainly hadn't ever heard of Dove House.   - Wendy Noe And but again, just passionate about women's issues and met the board of directors and was offered the job. And I really took it upon myself to educate and become knowledgeable about substance use disorder and the issues of the women that we treat face.   - Wendy Noe And it wasn't, you know, until I started working at Dove House and really educating and becoming educated by my women and by my staff about substance use disorder, that my eyes really opened up to the disease.   - Wendy Noe And I have a younger brother who had really kind of gone off the rails. He was in and out of jail. He had several arrests.   - Wendy Noe You know, it was the common theme that if we hadn't pain pills our house, make sure you hide them before he comes over knowing that he always had what he said was back pain, always had back problems and always needed some medicine.   - Wendy Noe And I had chronic ear issues. And so, you know, it wasn't unusual for me to have pain medicine in my house due to those those chronic ear issues, you know, and then so was the running theme in my family that lock these things up or he's going to ask for money here. He always wants money and never taking any ownership of the fact that he could never keep a job. You know, he was always good about getting a job, but never keeping a job.   - Wendy Noe He'd over sleep or it what was someone else's fault.   - Wendy Noe And so I saw some of those same things with the women that we were working with. And again, he was in and out of jail for for theft or possession of marijuana. And then he got arrested again. And I honestly can't recall what what what the charges were for. But it was then that I started getting clued in to some of the flags that were being raised.   - Wendy Noe So I remember having a conversation with my mom and I said I think he might have some addiction problems and sort of having some of those questions and conversations with not only him, but also with with my family members, with my my twin sister and my mom. So   - Liesel Mertes Wendy, could I could I jump in and ask you a question?   - Wendy Noe Yeah. That so.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that there's there's this family unit dynamics as your brother is struggling along the way. You you mentioned kind of this this emerging awareness.   - Liesel Mertes Is this addiction prior to that? What what were the family like, feelings and conversations? Were you feeling like he's just so irresponsible, he's totalizing the family's attention, why can't he get his act together? Like what were some of the things that were being absorbed within the the wider family structure?   - Wendy Noe It is such a good question. I so I'm very much a look. You want something, you work hard for it, you get it. And it irritated me. I had no patience for him.   - Wendy Noe I had no patience for the fact that he would not take ownership over his own behaviors. I was sick and tired of him hurting my family, our family. My mom was a single parent. My mom did not have a lot of income and yet she felt like she needed to take care of him.   - Wendy Noe He had always been the baby of the family. And she, you know, I couldn't understand why she would give him money or she would bail him out or she would help him.   - Wendy Noe And then my sister was the mediator. You know, she was always his caretaker. My mom had to work. And so she was always the one that would help him with his homework and make sure he was eating and that very nurturing older sister. And I was the hard ass one, you know, in a job, which I need to do.   - Wendy Noe I'm tired of taking care of you. So we had a very interesting family dynamic, you know, and my mom and my sister would get very frustrated with him, but they always seem to rescue him. Yeah, and I didn't. And so we had a very fractured relationship. We did not talk. We did not talk with each other. I didn't want anything to do with him. He made me mad. And so I really I really kind of cut him out of my life with him.   - Wendy Noe I didn't I didn't know him. I didn't understand him. And I certainly didn't respect him.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for for giving that background because it's a struggle. It's a struggle for so many people to think, is there a right way of encountering someone with these issues? And, you know, is it right? Is it wrong? Is it just what you do to survive, to get through and be able to live a life beyond that? So that's I appreciate you giving voice to some of those struggles.   - Wendy Noe Yeah, of course. I mean, I think, you know, he would be the first to recognize the challenging relationship that we had.   - Wendy Noe And yeah. And he was very good at keeping things away from us. You know, he presented what he wanted us to see. He was trying to get a job, but he couldn't get a job. There was no one hiring. And I didn't live in the same town as him. My mom did. So I think maybe she was more abreast of things, but and as a mom protecting us. But we had a very, very fractured relationship.   - Wendy Noe And he only let me see what I what he wanted me to see.   - Wendy Noe And so I remember him calling me from jail and needing my help. And I asked him, are you addicted? And he said, yes, I have a problem.   - Wendy Noe And I said, OK, let me help you, but here are my conditions. I will only help you or I will only do this if you go into treatment. And he's like, fine, OK.   - Wendy Noe And at this point, I think he was kind of looking at some homelessness and didn't have anywhere to live. And so I remember picking him up from a friend's house after he had been released from jail and he was living in a camper on their land.   - Wendy Noe So no running water, no electricity. So he was you know, it was pretty rough for him. I think he was willing to do whatever it took at that point to have a house.   - Wendy Noe So I remember taking him to the grocery store and hooking him up with everything that he needed and took him to a recovery house because I at this point, I'm working in recovery. I know it works. I know what it takes. I called people I knew and got them into a program and he lasted 30 days.   - Wendy Noe He met a girl on an online dating site. And he's a charmer. I mean, he has a heart of gold. He he always said he loves well, he loves while he didn't have the rest of it together, but he loves. Well, yeah. And and he left the. Program, and it went right back to to his and my relationship.   - Wendy Noe I was frustrated I couldn't keep it together. So, again, you know, fast forward wheels fell off. He they were doing good for a while. My sister, who is you know, she and I were talking this morning, she's she's like that that that old town neighborhood mom that knows everything and is in everyone's business and knew that things were falling apart.   - Wendy Noe And my sister, if she doesn't know you. She'll figure out who you are and start a relationship with you.   - Wendy Noe And she uses social media, Facebook as a way to communicate with people that I know of people and found out through a friend of of my brother's girlfriend that they were no running water.   - Wendy Noe They had kids in the house, no running water, no electricity. They were filling up water jugs at a local gas station. And and the house was trashed. And then that we found that they were both addicted and they got arrested. For theft, and which was some of my brother's charges before, and she was released because she had no priors, my brother went back to jail and I had her come to Dove House and tell me what had happened.   - Wendy Noe And I still feel bad about that because I have to imagine that, you know, here I hold this responsibility in this role of this this large organization. But yet I'm also her boyfriend, sister. And she needed my help and had to have community service and needed resources. And so she's sitting in my office and telling me everything. And it was then that I learned that my brother was addicted to heroin. He ended up getting out of jail.   - Wendy Noe I got him into another program. That program didn't work out for him, which I don't blame him. I blame the program.   - Wendy Noe And quite honestly, they failed my brother, but he gave it to me that   - Liesel Mertes Could I have you pause just for a second?   - Wendy Noe Yeah. Sorry, I go on and on.   - Liesel Mertes No, no, no.  Well, I'm just struck. You said they failed my brother. From your experience with your brother and also within your area of competence, what makes for a more or less effective program more helpful?   - Liesel Mertes Whatever whatever term applies best?   - Wendy Noe I think so, for for in this instance, this program allowed clients to have medication in their room. And my brother's drug of choice was with pain pills and graduated to heroin because pain pills became much more difficult to obtain. That program failed him because they had pain pills in the room and my brother used one of the pain pills. And so they looked at that as a discharge and that discharged him because they looked at that as a relapse and discharged him due to that relapse.   - Wendy Noe So I think that and there's a lot of programs out there Liesel that that discharge individuals when they have a relapse. And, you know, people have relapses all the time. When you look at diseases, you know, whether it's an asthma relapse or cancer comes back or diabetes flare up, you know, who knows? And, you know, you treat that. You treat that disease. Something's not working. Let's figure it out. But to just charge a person from a program because they relapse does not help them.   - Wendy Noe They're not going to be able to maintain sobriety. They're not going to be able to figure out what caused that relapse. And that's what Dove House does differently, is that we don't discharge due to a relapse. We we look at what happened, how can we help them? Because ultimately they're going to come back. They're going to need our help. And if we discharge them, then the chances of them dying or getting our services in the future are significant.   - Wendy Noe But in that instance with my brother, you know, they failed him in two ways. They they discharged him due to his relapse. But they set that relapse in front of his face by having a medication that could was easily abused. Yeah. Newly into recovery. He could not he couldn't resist it.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and that that movement a little bit, what you were saying of giving it another chance that the language of disease as it relates to addiction, I feel like has been a movement among practitioners and social services in science, in the medical field to talk about addiction more as a disease than as a matter of willpower. Why why is it important to make that move in the language and our conceptualizing of what addiction is?   - Wendy Noe Addiction always been looked at as a character flaw, and it's personal choice that you're making. You're choosing to use drugs. You're choosing to use alcohol. And and the reality is, is that at first choice you are you know, you may choose to drink alcohol or you may choose to to do something to put something in your body that perhaps you should be putting in there. But then something changes. And there is evidence that supports that when you use drugs or alcohol, there is a chemical.   - Wendy Noe A chemical imbalance that occurs in a person's brain and for some I can have one my brother cannot. And so it's a very interesting study and research that's come out that shows that this is a disease, that it is an imbalance in a person's brain.   - Wendy Noe The other part of this is that if you look at what the root cause of addiction is, something came before that. And what I say is trauma is the gateway drug. Those individuals experience some form of traumatic experience and they're using those external influences like drugs or alcohol to self medicate.   - Wendy Noe So, for example, my clients here at Dove House, and this really is across the board for women in and of itself, the average age for drug use is 13. And evidence shows that the age you start using drugs and alcohol on a regular basis is the age your brain stops maturing. So the average age of drug use for my clientele is 13. That means they're stunted. Their brain is stunted at the age of 13 or 14. Ninety five percent of my clients and again, this is this is evidence in general.   - Wendy Noe So while I see it in my client population, if you look at nationwide evidence and research for women. Ninety five percent of them experienced some form of trauma with 90 percent of them experiencing childhood sexual abuse. And again, this is across the board.   - Wendy Noe So if and then if you remove this notion that's a character flaw, you're bringing the disease and the the judgment out of the closet. People are using in secret, in secrecy. They're not reaching out for help because it's so stigmatizing.   - Wendy Noe So if we can remove the stigma from it, people are more likely to reach out for help at an earlier age and early onset of point because they know they're not going to be judge.   - Wendy Noe You don't judge people if they have cancer. We don't judge people if they have diabetes or asthma, we look at them as getting help. And so you're right that the narrative or this conversation around substance use disorder and addiction has really started to shift.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Wendy’s story in just a moment.  I want to take a second to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  As the economy starts to recover, are you doing all that you can to help your employees return to a place of thriving?  From death to disappointment to addiction issues, your people are facing a host of challenges and empathy is more important than ever.  Let Handle with Care Consulting equip your team to practice empathy when it matters most.  With keynote sessions, certificate programs, and coaching options, there is a solution that fits for your team.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and you were in the midst of the flow of your story. You were talking about helping your brother in and out of these different treatment centers, which I imagine in the midst of being a parent of two children, a partner, a professional, is taking a lot of your emotional and social bandwidth at the time.   - Liesel Mertes What what sort of a strain was that like for you trying to navigate these moving pieces on your brother's behalf?   - Wendy Noe The hardest thing for me was the two roles that I was playing. And, you know, I educate people and I see the women that come through the doors of Dove House and I love on them. And I educate people in substance use disorder. And I see these women as the women that they are, these incredible human beings that experienced severe things in their lives. And we are giving them the opportunity to become their best versions, the women they're designed and meant to be. And I've always felt that that my life's purpose is to provide a voice for women who have yet to find theirs.   And then I'm I'm dealing with my brother who hurt my family and hurt my mom is an active addiction and I'm judging him for it and I'm mad at him for it. And it was really hard for me to shift and think, why is it OK for me to treat him that way when I don't treat these women that way? And I'm telling other people not to treat people with substance use disorder, with negativity and with isolation.   - Wendy Noe And yet here I am doing it. And so I really had to train myself and evolve as a human being and as his sister, that my brother suffers from the disease of addiction. And this is not a choice he is making and I need to help him.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well. And I imagine. It's always it's always hard when we feel personally triggered or like this isn't just an abstract question, like your choices are affecting me, they're affecting people I love.   - Liesel Mertes And it can be hard sometimes to do those pivots in real time. Like when you're in the midst of a conversation, what kinds of things were important for you to be doing, like prior to interactions with him afterwards? Like what supports were you getting that what allowed you to evolve in the way that you're describing?   - Wendy Noe I asked a lot of questions and I leaned on team members who had family experience with addiction. I ask questions of women that came through our programs.   - Wendy Noe I really wanted to know and I I wanted to be vulnerable. I wanted to share why my own issues, my own insecurities, why I was acting the way that I was, and really helping to gain more of a personal understanding, getting inside the mind of someone that suffers from this disease. That really helped me to ask those questions to to not only know it from a literature standpoint, but to know it from a personal standpoint, to know it from a very intimate perspective.   - Wendy Noe How does it make you feel when when a when a family member disowns you or when a family member says these things to you? How did that make you feel? And so it really it it it opened my eyes in a way that they hadn't been opened and. It allowed me to help my brother in a way that I never had been able to help him patient with him, I was more understanding. I was compassionate. I ask the right questions and I listened.   - Wendy Noe And it honestly helps our relationship when I could tell him from a factual educational standpoint, like you are making this decision right now and this is an impulse decision and and having a very forward conversation with him, you know, instead of saying to him, you are leaving this program and moving in with your girlfriend, why do you think that's a bad idea? This is why I think it's a bad idea. And pushing him away, if I said it to him that way, instead of saying you're making an impulse decision, why do you think that is?   - Wendy Noe And what has happened to you in the past when you've made an impulse decision? And can you slow down? And instead of leaving today, can you think through while you're angry right now because you're in this program and somebody made you mad and so you're just going to go move in with your girlfriend? Can you slow down and think through this? If I make this decision based on emotion and impulse, how is that going to benefit me tomorrow? Right.   - Wendy Noe So really helping him understand and slow down and make have those conversations, because that's how we do here at Dove House.   - Liesel Mertes What I hear in some of those questions and tell me if I'm characterizing this correctly, inviting him into more of his own reflective process beyond just like judging or offering advice on what could seem to you, like really bad decisions.   - Liesel Mertes Like, let me just tell you what I think, instead of kind of pressing deeper and inviting him into his own deeper reflection, is that a good characterization of some of the things you were doing and asking the right questions?   - Wendy Noe 100 percent. Because if you if you make all the questions, make all the decisions, and when things go wrong, guess whose fault it is? Your fault. It's my fault. Yeah. Really helping him slow down. And what we say here at Dove House, play that tape all the way through. He has to learn and lean on his own understanding. And if I know that today I make a decision to eat unhealthy and I'm trying to lose weight, well, guess what?   - Wendy Noe If I eat unhealthy, I'm going to gain weight. If someone tells me, Wendy, don't eat that, one, it's condescending because I'm a grown adult. I don't need you to tell me what to do. But if I do it, it's because then I'm not owning that decision. Someone own that decision for me. And so it really, you know, he he's a grown man. And the women that we serve, they're grown women. I am not their parent.   - Wendy Noe I can help them lead them to a place of understanding and help them think for themselves. And that's what we do, is teaching them, helping their brain to mature. It's it's very similar to raising my daughters. You're going to make decisions when I'm not around. What you have to do is think about the consequences with those decisions, whether they're positive or negative. How do you want to live your life? Are you going to go to a party and drink alcohol?   - Wendy Noe Would you do that in front of me? And if you make a choice to do so, how will that benefit you? I will help you in the long run. Ultimately, you're going to have to make those decisions. So it's really providing them with the tools that they need to make healthy lifestyle choices for them.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Something that I hear sometimes from support people who are walking with people with addiction is that sense of social taboo, of personal failing. It affects both the addicted individual, but also their support systems. Because what I've heard from some support people, as they said, you know, it's it's something I don't feel like I can ask for help with or talk because I'm also judge, you know, what did I do wrong that my child or my partner is dealing with substance abuse, that there's this extension of the shame narrative that goes even to the support people who are seeking help.   - Liesel Mertes Did you find that to be true within your own story, or is that something that you also hear for support people?   - Wendy Noe I guess it's not it wasn't really part of my story because, you know, I. I think. I don't know, I think I've been very careful about who I invite into my world, and I think because I had people around me that understood substance use disorder that I was in a place unlike what a lot of other people experience. I had I had a built in support system through my job. Right. They got it. They knew it.   - Wendy Noe They didn't judge me. If anything, maybe it allowed me some street cred because, you know, they call you ignore me because you've never experienced a recovery yourself. And yet when I tell share with my clients that, like, this is the walk I've walked and this is the world in which I live and my get it, you know, it allows some different level of credibility.   - Wendy Noe But I do think and it's the same with people that that suffer from the disease, is that fear of judgment? It's the same with those family members is again, we've looked at this as a personal failure. And so people don't talk about it because. Yeah, how how will people look at me? They're shocked or they're surprised and they don't share their story. I mean, I have people that are donors that don't share that or that are volunteers that have a personal history with addiction or a family member, and yet they won't share that knowledge publicly.   - Wendy Noe But they feel a calling to help, hmm. And so I think as we continue to break down the walls and stigma around substance use disorder, we can we can really shape the outcomes of how we help those individuals suffer from it.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I'm struck that you have sat in the room with many people who are walking their stories. You mentioned some earlier in the podcast. You know, their parents disowned them. The what are as this is   - Liesel Mertes One aim of this podcast is to help people be able to avoid some of the minefields that are response patterns. What would you say are some of the worst things, like whatever you do, just avoid saying this kind of stuff to someone who is in the midst of an addiction struggle?   - Wendy Noe You know, it's a fine line because you don't want it, you don't want to enable bad behaviors. You know, I think.   - Wendy Noe I think I think the worst thing we can do is isolate a person from love and isolate them. So if you use again, I will never speak to you again or you are not welcome in my home. I mean, you certainly have to put boundaries up and put boundaries in place. I think when we attack their character, it's the worst thing we can do because, again, it's it's it's a disease. They're not making this personal choice. I mean, we always say that this the addiction is a monster in your brain.   - Wendy Noe And if you open the door to that monster, he's going to be in that door all the way open. And it's really hard to get him out of the room once you've invited him in. So I think that, too, to dis. To disconnect a person from their family, they won't reach out for help when they need it because they've been booted from it before, so they're not going to go back.   - Wendy Noe I mean, if you are kicked when you're down, are you going to reach your hand back out to that same person who you know you're not because you don't want to be reinjured.   - Wendy Noe I think that would be probably my greatest advice now with the understanding that we we can't give them money, you know, we can't give them the financial support or inviting them into our home. We certainly have to lay boundaries and put things in place, but. I think we still need to be present and available.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, but the flip side of that question, what are some of the best or most helpful general principles in helping someone who is struggling with addiction?   - Wendy Noe Well, obviously, I think the person that needs I think a person struggling with addiction needs to understand and be educated about the resources that are out there. We can't do it on our own. And I think they need treatment. And I'm not a big fan of just, you know, detoxing and then they can come home that such that such treatment is getting the the chemicals out of their body. But it's a treatment. They need long term.   - Wendy Noe They need long term treatment. But the big thing is that it has to be that individual's choice. So I can I can force you into treatment. But if you don't go there willingly, you're not going to stay. So we really have to say I'll help you with this, but ultimately has to be your choice. I'm willing to to to call I'm willing to pay for two weeks. But this is all this is all I'm willing to do.   - Wendy Noe It has to be up to you. And that's what I learned even with my brother. He I told him that he had to go to the first treatment program and then he left. But then he I kept the door open to him and he came back and said, OK, Wendy, I'm ready to try this again. Can you help me? And that time it stuck. And today he's three years sober from heroin. But it was a it was a personal choice.   - Wendy Noe I don't absolve him from bad behaviors. I don't enable bad behaviors. When I feel like that side of him is creeping up. I don't, I don't entertain it. I don't entertain oh, woe is me behaviors. And he knows that about me. But he made choices and we can have conversations. But ultimately it was his choice to get sober and to do the hard work.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Was that, was that movement into treatment or the decision to go. We talked about some of the family unit dynamics. Did that get messy or were you did you feel fairly aligned with your mom and your sister?   - Wendy Noe Very much aligned. My mom trusted me to make the I mean, I think at that point she really said, you do what you need to do. I trust you to help save his life. And she really backed off when I told her, don't give him money. Don't do this. If you want to buy a pack of cigarettes, then buy him a pack of cigarettes. But but stop doing this. She did. And that helped a lot because she trusted me and really walked alongside me and my sister as well.   - Wendy Noe I mean, my sister and I are exceptionally close and, you know, is even educating her on on how to help him. And I think the fact that he was a united front, he couldn't play my mom. He couldn't weasel his way into things. You know, it helped him because he knew he couldn't he he he couldn't do the things that he'd done in the past.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Speaking of best practices and ways to be helpful, what were some of the ways that your support system was most helpful to you as you were going through the ups and downs of your brother being in treatment?   - Wendy Noe For me, you know, the people that I didn't work with that didn't understand addiction, never passed judgment, and they always were just there for me to listen because, you know, you have to put on a certain front around your family when you're figuring this out.   - Wendy Noe But, you know, I could let my guard down with my people and knew that I was loved and listened and understood and maybe they didn't have the advice and that was OK because I wasn't looking for advice. I just needed to vent and have a support system that when I needed it, they held me up.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. For people listening right now, some people might be thinking, I don't know anyone who is dealing with addiction issues, I'm sure that I don't that my life doesn't touch anyone who's been affected. I think oftentimes were unaware of the scope of the problem.   - Liesel Mertes Do you have any, like, numbers or ways of conveying? I also imagine that covid potentially has kicked up a number of addiction issues as people are dealing with a lot more depression. They're stuck at home. They're looking to numb or dull all kinds of pains. What does it look like in Indiana or nationwide as to numbers of people who are dealing with addiction issues?   - Wendy Noe Addiction is a huge issue. It's a lot more prevalent than people would realize. And I think the chances are that everyone would know someone that is dealing with a disease of substance use disorder. I can't tell you what the number is at the moment because, again, that's a self reported number. We think it's much more prevalent than even what the data would say.   - Wendy Noe What we do know that in the world of covid right now, that overdoses are up by 80 some percent compared to this time last year and overdose deaths are up by 40 percent compared to this time last year.   - Wendy Noe So we are we have been dealing with a crisis with with the disease of addiction. And again, I think that we can see that because we're talking about it more than we've ever talked about it. And that's because we're seeing so many people affected by it. But it is a it's a huge health crisis that we're living in right now. It's just gigantic. And I don't think, quite honestly, we've seen the worst of it at this point.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that.   - Wendy Noe I think that we are we're seeing the overdose rates and we're seeing the death rate or the overdose and the death rates skyrocketing. But right now, people are getting stimulus checks, they're getting unemployment, and so they're financially managing. I think that when the money runs out, we're going to see a lot more homelessness. We're going to see a lot more need than we've ever seen. I know our numbers are going up just in terms of of requests.   - Wendy Noe Right now, we have 88 women on our waitlist level, which is the most I can remember we ever having.   - Liesel Mertes Wow, yeah, those are huge numbers if people are listening and they think I want to learn more about the Dove House, perhaps I know someone who should go or I want to support the work you guys are doing. Where is the best place for them to go to get more information?   - Wendy Noe The best place to go would be our website doverecoveryhouse.org . We have great information about where our who we are, what we do here, some really great videos and testimonials from clients that have been served through our program. We're also on all social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. We even have a YouTube page and our videos are up there. I do every other week or so. I do just a two minute kind of log called once Wednesdays with Wendy and just highlighting kind of what's been happening at our house.   - Wendy Noe So if you go to our Web Web page, you'll find all the links for our social media channels.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   You can find links to the Dove House and their available resources in the show notes or on the web posting.  That way you can learn more and support the good work that Wendy and her team are doing in Indianapolis.   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Wendy… Listen and make space for caregivers to share without passing judgment or defaulting to advice.And this is hard, just in life in general.  It is so easy to try to fix someone or to shut them down as they are expressing their feelings.  Addiction is all too often shrouded in shame and secrecy, and this extends to caregivers as well.  If you know someone who, like Wendy, is supporting someone that is living with addiction, do your best to be a safe person for them to share with.  Wendy was able to talk with women who were recovering addicts, to hear their stories and get their perspective…and this helped her with her brother.You probably don’t work at a place like the Dove Recovery House, but listening to or reading the perspective of former or current addicts could help you have a more grounded perspective on what it is like for the person you care about to walk with addiction. Many times, people who are struggling with addiction need treatment to combat their addiction.Wendy talked about the common theme of trauma and how just getting chemicals out of someone’s system is not enough.  And not all addiction treatment programs are created equal.  And I know, we usually only have three take-aways, but I want to add one moreWhat would it mean for you to consider addiction as a disease?As I mentioned at the top of the podcast, this was not the paradigm that I grew up with.  Addiction was seen a much more of a choice or a moral failing.  How would this affect how you interact with a loved one or a colleague that is struggling?  How would it affect how you show up with resources and care?    OUTRO   Find out more about the Dove Recovery House at https://doverecoveryhouse.org

- Tara VanderWoude That has been so supportive of me, is just knowing that I'm not in it alone, not alone individually, but then not even alone as as a Korean American, as an Asian-American, but that there are others cross ethnic, cross racial who who care about this and who want to learn, grow and who want to take action when necessary toward toward the this hatred and this anti Asian sentiment of this past year plus.   INTRO   Anti-Asian hate crimes have skyrocketed over the last year.  There have been disturbing stories of violent attacks on California street corners, accusation from the highest levels of government, and, last week, a devastating slaughter in Atlanta, Georgia.    How do we talk about the painful experience of Asian Americans living in the United States?  Does their story even get told?  What does it mean to create space to hear from your Asian friends or coworkers?  What are ways that you are subtly discounting their experience and creating a forced culture of silence?  It is vital that we make space to listen, grieve, and create meaningful societal change in partnership with Asian Americans.   My guest today is Tara VanderWoude.  Tara is a Korean-American.  She is a social worker, advocate, and educator.  As an adoptee, she writes and speaks often about the complexity of adoption as well as the Asian American experience.  She is married to a Dutch man who was her high school sweetheart and they have adopted two children from South Korea.  She is also a founding board member of Korean-Focus Indiana.  She speaks with power, insight, and eloquence about her experiences as an Asian American woman.    As always, I like for you to know my guests as people as well.  Tara is an educator who is really excited about the coming break.      - Liesel Mertes What are some of your favorite things to do in central Indiana? You will not be going anywhere for spring break. What will you do to enjoy the time there?   - Tara VanderWoude So my favorite time of day are the mornings. And so for me, I work full time outside of the home on a schedule, a school schedule. So you can imagine I have to be out the door decently early. So in central Indiana, in my own home, I will just be thrilled to wake up and to be able to stay at home during my favorite part of the day. Whether that means a slow morning, whether that means just being in my home and being able to cook and clean and do my dishes, connect with my kids, one of whom will be on spring break next week, I will just be really, really pleased to do that.   - Tara VanderWoude As simple as it sounds, I love being home. And, you know, we do a lot of walking and a lot of running and a lot of outside backyard front porch. So during covid times, that's kind of where we find ourselves, you know.   - Liesel Mertes Do you have a favorite breakfast that accompany your favorite time of day? Like, is it wrapped with food at all or a cup of coffee?   - Liesel Mertes Because I'm also a morning lover and if I'm talking about mornings, breakfast has to be woven somewhere in is my favorite meal.   - Tara VanderWoude Yes, it's funny you ask, that is an important part of my life. So coffee and I am very fortunate. My husband does not drink coffee, but every single morning he brings me coffee in bed. I know every day of the week, of the month of the year. So definitely starting with some coffee and then I eat a little bit later. But when I'm at school, I can not have this. But when I am home, I do have this breakfast I wake and it is sauteed brussel sprouts with a couple of eggs and some pickled onions.   - Tara VanderWoude And this this dip that I get at Costco, it sounds very eclectic, but I just really like it. And I eat it many days of the week.   - Liesel Mertes That sounds actually very tasty. I like the pickled onions as well being thrown in with that.   - Liesel Mertes I have read some of your bio, but would you give me just like a ten thousand foot view of your vocational trajectory, some of the things you've done and been involved with?   - Tara VanderWoude Sure, sure. So after college, I spent a very short time as a medical social worker and I worked at a large hospital in Michigan. Did that just for a little bit before my husband and I moved.   - Tara VanderWoude I then went and worked for Healthy Families of Indiana. And so I did a home based services and actually worked in three quite rural counties, which was a very new experience for me. Working in the rural world did that for a bit and then I moved into some gerontology work.   - Tara VanderWoude It was also home based and we just really aimed to keep individuals safe at home. And then from there, I found myself in the world of adoption and worked as an adoption social worker for several years. Did that help families throughout the process of adopting?   - Tara VanderWoude And then from there, let's see, what did I do? I started some independent consulting and some education on post adoption issues as it relates to race, adoption and identity.   - Tara VanderWoude And then I also found myself working for the school to make my kids attend and currently am working as an assistant dean of students at a at a lower school and elementary school.   - Liesel Mertes I have so many questions that we could delve into, but with limited four by the time of one episode. And so we've had some some prior episodes where people have talked as adoptive parents. We've got that perspective. But I would love to hear more. And there's so much in our current events, like in this immediate week in March of twenty twenty one, where with this horrible killing in Atlanta and just frankly, the rhetoric of the last year under the Trump administration with covid that I imagine it has been particularly difficult to be an Asian-American woman.   - Liesel Mertes Could you tell me a little bit about what the events of just even the the Atlanta shooting, what that how you received that in your person, in your body? What was that like for you to be   - Tara VanderWoude Sure.  Sure.  You are absolutely right. It's it's been an interesting ride both this past week and a half since since the shooting in Atlanta and then really this last year, like you mentioned, of just some anti Asian sentiment and some hatred that has really been highlighted this past year during the pandemic, a lot of scapegoating and blaming and violence toward toward Asian-Americans, toward people who look like me.   - Tara VanderWoude And then I think as an adopted person who was raised by two white parents, you can only imagine that that adds an entirely other level of complexity and of missed connections, so to speak, because I am living this experience that my that my adoptive parents, that my greater extended family and community are not are not experiencing.   - Tara VanderWoude When I think about Atlanta, you know, I actually had a friend, a friend who lives in D.C., someone who's very invested in racial justice and equity work, and she's an African-American female. And we talk about these topics regularly. She sent me a text on Tuesday night, the evening of the shooting in Atlanta. I already had put my phone to bed, so to speak, and I had not seen it.   - Tara VanderWoude But I woke up   - Tara VanderWoude and I saw that text and I clicked on the link to the news coverage. And then I was up. Right. You can imagine it's 2:00 in the morning. And I saw that. And I just thought, oh, no, I had already been reading about some physical violence and even murders of Asian Americans that really has been happening throughout the pandemic.   - Tara VanderWoude And then to read about this, the shooting at three different locations that this that this man that he thought to these three different businesses, I was up for a few hours and just fell asleep for a very short time before I had to be at school.   - Tara VanderWoude And I just I just felt a heaviness. And when I woke up, I, I didn't exactly know what what to expect, but I checked the news again and throughout that day, checked in on a lot of my Asian friends.   - Tara VanderWoude And likewise, I had some Asian friends reaching out to me just, hey, whoa, how are you? And kind of taking in that news that that was the first kind of twenty four hours, so to speak, for for me and really before I left for school to mentioning it to both of my kids who are currently 12 and 14.   - Tara VanderWoude Obviously my older my older child has more access at school, at high school, to the Internet throughout the day and news sources. So I knew that it would come up and I wanted to be the person that told them about this. And because we have been building in on this conversation of race and racial matters and racism toward Asian-Americans and others, it was just another conversation and really made me grateful for for the previous conversations and work that we had done really within our family just to create this atmosphere where we can talk about such topics.   - Liesel Mertes There's a lot that for white members of majority culture that we are just beginning to read and discuss more about, about the lived experience of Asian-Americans, our news cycle is highlighting some of those things. I think it's a really important conversation to engage in.  If you were making generalizations and saying, I wish that the majority culture could understand this aspect about what it is to be Asian-American right now, what are some of the things that come to mind?   - Tara VanderWoude OK, ok, sure. Yeah. When I when I think about that, you know, I feel like so often the Asian-American experience gets lost. Like I said, you know, in this in this racialized society that we that we all enjoy. And so I I think that there's a number of things, a number of things come come to mind. But it's almost as if we're invisible on one hand. Right. Because when we have conversations about race relations, it is a black white conversation often.   - Tara VanderWoude And, you know, my own daughter once just said, are we black? Like, I just wear black, right. Because she very, very seldom would hear anyone mention Asian or would hear anyone mention Latino. So she's trying to figure this out. We're not even in the room when you don't even say that we're here. And so what? What does that do? And it's almost I don't want to say it's neglect that's too strong of a word, but it does do something to your psyche.   - Tara VanderWoude And in some ways, it's like, all right, keep your head down more. Don't say anything. Don't rock the boat. This isn't about us. So that kind of comes comes to mind.   - Tara VanderWoude And then another thing that comes to mind is you've probably maybe read that people just assume that Asians are very white adjacent, so to speak, that we're closer to white and so other perhaps racial groups, they perceive us perhaps in that way. And what's interesting is that I feel like we're never quite white enough, so to speak, whatever that means, and then we're never black enough or of color enough, so to speak, as well.   - Tara VanderWoude And so I think perhaps different groups perceive us differently based on perhaps what is what is comfortable for them or maybe what is you know, they point out the differences in us, so to speak. So.   - Tara VanderWoude You know, the Asian American history is rich and complex and nuanced, and I have not even done enough work and reading in that area, but just the little that I've started to just self teach myself. That's another another point is in our US history, we don't talk a lot about the Asian American experience, so to speak.   - Tara VanderWoude We don't talk a lot about, you know, that the eighteen hundreds and we don't talk a lot about the different legislation. We don't talk a lot about the exclusion of of different people groups when it comes to some of the different ethnic groups of of Asia. So hopefully that's helpful.   - Tara VanderWoude When when you think of our experiences, it's that of for me speaking for myself, it's of where do I fit in when I'm not even mentioned? And then it is can I even speak out? Because I've been told often that how dare you speak about your hardships or your your racialized experiences because so-and-so has it worse.   - Tara VanderWoude I very much remember a conversation with an extended family member and I was just sharing some really hurtful things. We saw that happen to me because of my skin color and, you know, you know what empathy is. And a person just looked at me and it's like, well, you're not black, so you should be thankful.   - Tara VanderWoude And I just that's very I remember where I was sitting when this conversation happened, and here I am pouring out something very hateful that happened to me. And to have it completely like it doesn't matter because someone else has it worse. Yeah. And that, I think is a is a regular occurrence as well for for Asian-Americans. Certainly the model minority stereotype doesn't help that in which Asians perhaps are perceived as these hardworking individuals that achieve and everything comes well to them and their income is higher, et cetera.   - Tara VanderWoude So I hope that's helpful. So that kind of comes to mind when you when you ask that very much.   - Liesel Mertes How have you experienced some of that silencing or needing to go underground or just slights based on being Asian-American within your work in social spheres?   - Tara VanderWoude Yeah, you know, I think some of the silencing simply comes from the fact that are we even in the room if we're not being mentioned? I trained it to be a CASA, a court appointed special guardian for kids who are in foster care. And I just remember being in that training room and one of the judges came in and it was a room of individuals who had identify as black, African-American or white. And then there was me and I just remember him saying, we're all gathered here together.   - Tara VanderWoude Isn't it so great, black and white. And he just went on and it's again, one of those moments like, am I in the room? Does my experience matter? And so that comes to mind. And I think every time that that happens, it does in some way kind of chip away at the entitlement to be part of the conversation when it comes to our racialized society.   - Tara VanderWoude And I, I do I hear the sleights about being smart and being good at math and playing the violin, and it's just not funny. And I think people think they're being humorous. But there is this deep seated, there's some deep seated beliefs about who we are as Asian-Americans.   - Tara VanderWoude And of course, you know, you've heard of the term micro aggressions. And so as those daily slights and insults come out, that that kind of treat me as if I'm inferior or that I'm other. If it happened once, that's one thing. Right. But when you continue, like they say, to get a papercut after papercut in the same place, that cumulative effect, what does it do?   - Tara VanderWoude And I think all of that kind of contributes to me perhaps not wanting to raise my hand and put my own experience out there. And I think I've learned with whom I can do that and with whom I cannot, based perhaps on their previous previous ways of receiving me or dismissing me. I yeah, we all have that felt safety with certain people. And when it comes to racial matters, time and experiences have have informed who I go to when when I'm hurting about something related to to race.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. I want to want to press more into that.   - Liesel Mertes I you know, as you were sharing a gave me a moment of reflection, even two sessions that I have led where I will talk about the experiences of black and brown Americans and how they're being highlighted right now. And I realize the implicit exclusion there.   - Liesel Mertes And I I think, at least in my own mind, as I consider it, I think, well, I feel like yellow is a very offensive sort of a term, you know, and not descriptive. What sort of language when people are talking about the the Asian experience, you know, is it is is to say the experience of Asian-American like, do do we want to steer away from any sort of descriptor about skin color? Because I imagine there's a lot of offensive baggage.   - Liesel Mertes How how have conversations about color felt toward you when they felt best? Like how have people referenced the Asian experience? Sure, sure.   - Tara VanderWoude I think one of it is just when they mentioned that we are a part of the human population, when it's not simply a black white conversation and they're willing to talk about those who might be indigenous or who are Latino or who are Asian, it is OK to name those things because actually, yes, we do exist. And I know on one hand people are thinking, well, we can't possibly mention every group and we'll exclude someone. And I have grace for people.   - Tara VanderWoude So it's not that I'm watching and policing every word, it's more that it's this cumulative norm of way of talking about our racialized society. So. Yeah, yellow, you know, I don't I don't know many Asians who like to be called yellow and and really, like you mentioned to me before this call, the continent of Asia is quite vast and it has upwards of 50 different countries and ethnicities. And so we think of we think of just the vast array of the hue of one's skin.   - Tara VanderWoude And that's just I think that kind of goes into this social construction of race in which, you know, White became legalized, so to speak.   - Tara VanderWoude So conversations about color, about race, so, so complicated. I feel like, because I know, too, that when we come to the table to talk about it, that different people at the table are using words and descriptors and language and operating with different definitions of such so much that we don't have the shared vocabulary or understanding even among families sometimes or even among colleagues.   - Tara VanderWoude So it's it's it's it's complicated.   - Liesel Mertes Well, but exactly what you said, I mean, just when to take that away, the acknowledgement that our story needs space in the room, the proverbial room and exactly what you said.   - Liesel Mertes I mean, Asia is huge. You know, even the term Asian-American is reducing a very complex reality of your lumping together someone from the Philippines with someone from China. And those are very different lived experiences.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return, in just a moment, to Tara and her insights.  Which have been so, so good.  But I want to take a moment to acknowledge our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  Employee care is essential to every area of your business, and it is really complex this year.  Are you doing what you can to keep your people engaged?  Are you helping them build the skills to navigate tough conversations, avoid offense, and build a more equitable culture of care for all people?  If you don’t know, let Handle with Care Consulting help.  With keynote offerings, certificate programs, and executive coaching, we help you live out empathy and care when it matters most.   MUSICAL TRANSITION     - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you mentioned friends or colleagues that, you know, they're safe people to be able to go to and express. What are some of the things that they are doing? Well, they let you know that they are safe people.   - Tara VanderWoude Sure. So, you know, I could start this in a number of different ways. But throughout my life, I have had experiences of hatred, discrimination, verbal assaults. I've had those experiences as it relates to me being Asian, being Korean, American. And so, you know, when you're close friends with someone, you want to share those things that hurt you or those things that stop you in your tracks. And so I think you quickly learn that when you share something, the way that that person responds, it tells you a lot.   - Tara VanderWoude And so there are some people who want to quickly dismiss and make it all better because it's uncomfortable for them. Perhaps it could be uncomfortable for them because they don't know how to respond. And I get that a lot of us struggle with how to respond to people who are in crisis or people who are hurting. Some people are uncomfortable with it because maybe they don't think that I should be as upset about it as I am. And they think, you know, we've come a long ways.   - Tara VanderWoude Would you rather live in the 1900s, you know, so be thankful. I think some people are uncomfortable with it because they maybe have thought some of those very things that I'm now bringing to their attention as being hurtful to me so I can I can kind of read the level of someone's comfort and entering into my pain with me or staying with me and being curious to ask questions that help me understand, help them understand.   - Tara VanderWoude And then I know that when I bring things to some people, they just laugh because they don't know what else to say or do.   - Tara VanderWoude And then there are people that I tell them these things and they say, well, that must really hurt or that sounds really hard. Or they say, you know what, I don't even know what to say, but I know that that was wrong and I love you and they just name it, validate my experience. They don't make an excuse for the person or the incident that's happened and they go there with me. And so I think that's just very it's just the skills of having empathy and being really being willing to be with someone in their pain or to bear witness to someone's experiences, even if it's uncomfortable for you as a friend or as the here.   - Tara VanderWoude And so even now, this past week, different friends have extended themselves so beautifully. And, you know, there's a friend that comes to mind and she just said, I don't know how exactly to be the friend that you need right now, but I want to and I want to learn more. And I love you. And that's meaningful because she's not afraid to name that some of this is her internal. I don't even know and. Yeah, I just that's kind of what comes to mind when I think of when I think of those those friends,   - Tara VanderWoude You know, this past week there was one colleague who just she had known I had had some great sleep. And some of it is just due to this heaviness. And some of my Asian friends that were in contact quite a bit more this week checking in on each other. And I've had some friends who've experienced some some racial hatred. And so as I carry that with them, it obviously affects me emotionally. And one colleague, I think, just heard me say I haven't gotten much sleep and I found a Starbucks card in my inbox the next morning. And it was just like, you know what, when you need your next caffeine, it's on me.   - Tara VanderWoude That was extremely meaningful to me. A five dollar gift card. Wow. It's just that you thought of me last week. Friday, I came home and it was it turned out to be an interesting evening. And I came home. I was so excited to be home from the week. And there were flowers on my table that had been delivered and it just said to a beautiful family. And that's that's all it said. And again, that was really that was really meaningful.   - Tara VanderWoude And just people even texting. I know that it can be on one hand, it can be exhausting because you feel like you have to respond to all of them. And I think some of that's on me. I just need to let myself off the hook because I know they don't all expect a response. Right. But just people just saying, hey, I'm thinking of you. I imagine it might have been a hard week for you and that the news is quite much.   - Tara VanderWoude And so I'm thinking about you and I care about you. That's that's that's really meaningful to me.   - Liesel Mertes Those are beautiful expressions and thank you for the time and reflection, you know, even as you as you described some of the ways that people miss you. I was reminded of some of the language that I use in some of my my trainings, you know, like, oh, that's that's a Buck-Up Bobby.   - Liesel Mertes Sort of a response floating through or that's a that's a Cheer-Up Cheryl who just so ready for you to look on the bright side or the Joking Julie who just wants to make, you know, a joke or try to get through that uncomfortable moment. And it sounds like you have had encounters with many of those types and probably more as you've gone through this.   - Liesel Mertes And, you know, I hear I hear also the the beauty of intention when it comes to empathy, you know, even even if you don't know exactly what to say.   - Liesel Mertes There are always, you know, gestures of things you can do. Also, you know, a note to Starbucks card flowers. They're so meaningful. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the most hurtful things that have come your way, either in work settings or social circles?   - Tara VanderWoude Sure. So, you know, being an Asian and predominantly white and or black majority areas, I feel like I'm often seen as the other. And people are just not used to seeing my face. They're just not used to seeing Asians were a small sample size, so to speak.   - Tara VanderWoude And so I, I receive I receive comments from people of various races and various ethnic groups. Some of the most hurtful things I think have to do with the erasure that I talked of, the just the dismissal and the erasure of of our experience.   - Tara VanderWoude And then I talked about I talk about this sometimes on my some of the consulting and education I do for for adoption, race and identity. But when you're raising an Asian female in particular, there is this objectification and exotic vacation of Asians, females, and at least I know it's uncomfortable to talk about, but I feel like it's vital, especially in light of the events of last week in Atlanta, but that it happened early on for me in high school, just starting to receive comments from men regarding who I am as as a female, but more importantly, as an Asian female.   - Tara VanderWoude And so different comments about that are very uncomfortable from strangers and then also from from people that might be in my in my neighborhood or in my circle, a community. I remember some uncomfortable conversations with with someone that I would see regularly and he would comment on my body. And I'm sure that's why you would decided to adopt so you could just keep that body and then not wanting ever to be in his presence. I remember being in a social setting and someone saying, hey, you know, a guy saying to me, hey, can you bring all your sisters along with you?   - Tara VanderWoude We want all of your sisters to be here, too, because he assumed I had I had many, many Korean beauties. Right. To take with me to offer to him. So comments like that. And then there have been some situations I've been followed out of places before. Men follow me and ask me if I work at a massage parlor, ask me if I do nails, tell me that I have a body as they use a description.   - Tara VanderWoude Men, a man, I should say. Told me I look like someone in his porn magazines. That was my actually my awakening back when I was a teenager, a man coming up to me and saying that to me. And you can imagine even back then, the Internet was not what it is now. Right. So he's talking about his his paper magazines.   - Tara VanderWoude And then there have been a few times in which some men have exposed themselves to me and have and I was with my kids when that happened.   - Tara VanderWoude And so a lot of them really would have to do with without being particularly in Asian female, I think about safety because of the comments and even such actions that that I've experienced. And it's so interesting because you're just going about your day like you're just going about your day. And just like that, it's like it's hijacked from you.   - Tara VanderWoude You know, I remember going for a run with my daughter and she was on her scooter. We're having so much fun together and a man starts screaming things out at me.   - Tara VanderWoude And then he had to stop at the stoplight. And I knew that if we kept running that we would be there right next to him. And so taking my daughter and hiding behind a building with her downtown just so he could not see us and her knowing that something was up and her just hugging me and just saying it's going to be OK, you know? And I I said to her that man, just what he said to us and how he's looking at us, it's just not OK.   - Tara VanderWoude And she and I had already started this conversation, but her kind of comforting me in that moment, you know, as a mother, that's that's both a beautiful thing and really a tragic thing, too, when our kids are confronted with with some of the ugliness, like I said, a beautiful thing and something that she was empowered to do, I think. But also this tragic loss of of that that say safety in that moment.   - Tara VanderWoude So that's what comes to mind when I think of the really harmful and hurtful experiences that I've that I've had.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Thank you for giving voice to that. It's so it's so ugly and angering.   - Tara VanderWoude Yeah, it it is. And, you know, my kids have experienced it now and they've been called covid and coronavirus and they've been screamed at to go back to China. My son had an experience in which it was a whole group of people screaming at him and he thought it could get physical and just trying to talk with him and process with him how he should respond, what he wants to say versus what he should say if he's thinking about his personal safety. It's a lot to kind of.   - Tara VanderWoude To talk through, because there's so many different scenarios and then just that that feeling of, wow, we shouldn't have to do this, we shouldn't have to walk through all of these scenarios in order to come out emotionally intact and physically intact. But that is the experience that we have.   - Tara VanderWoude And most recently, right before the shooting, my son was spit at by a stranger. And I, I that was really and it still is a really hard one for me. Obviously, he's had those verbal experiences. But just for him to to explain to me what I got off my bike, I had to make sure that I didn't have any spit on me. And he had just bought, like, a can of soda or something with a buddy somewhere. And I had to make sure it wasn't on my drink. And that's just awful to experience as a mother. Yes, I know that physically he came home in one piece, but the degrading nature of such an act and then to know that your kid got that a million times over, I would rather that person spit at me.   - Tara VanderWoude But that that's been a hard one. And then also then for people, on the other hand, to be saying Asians have everything great crazy rich Asians, you know, you don't have it as bad as this group. So those experiences of having them and then people maybe not believing you, that's tough.   - Liesel Mertes Mhm. Yeah. Well and I imagine that the toll that that can take in your body and your psyche when you feel like there's this mountain, you know, stress and horror and especially embodying it, you know, as a mother and then, and then feeling like I don't I don't even have a socially, you know, sanctioned outlet to give voice to this. I imagine I could feel very disempowering.   - Tara VanderWoude Yeah, and you know what's interesting is, you know, I hadn't shared verbally with many people that most recent experience with my son because when you speak it into existence, it's just it's going through it all over again.   - Tara VanderWoude And what's so fascinating, too, and I'm sure you know this, but there's so much embarrassment and shame that has even come from that experience. For me, even though I did nothing wrong, my son did nothing wrong. But just having to even share that you were the recipient of something like that, for whatever reason, it's it's just really hard. I know it doesn't mean that we are weak or that we did something wrong. But I think to kind of what we've been talking about throughout this conversation is when we do need to share it with someone, because I did share it with some of his parents, his friends, parents, as an FYI, because I know they'll be spending time together riding bikes.   - Tara VanderWoude I know that I'll have to also, so to speak, manage other people's responses to me sharing that, and so that can also feel like another task, so to speak. And I'll say that all of his friends, parents were great. And I've learned to kind of how to share things and to even say, you know what, I'm not in a place where I can talk about this much more. But I did want you to know this particular incident happens.   - Tara VanderWoude And I wanted to provide that context since our kids are buddies. And that's what I did in this this incident just over over a text because sharing it, speaking it it's it's been it's tough.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. That makes me think of something that. Some some of my black colleagues have given voice to, which is to say it's hard enough to live the experience, then I'm asked to interpret it and educate people who are well-meaning. You know, I have to, like, go deeply into it. And I'm struck, you know, in a sideways way. That is part of what you're even doing and being a guest on this podcast. So I am grateful for that.   - Liesel Mertes How have you do you feel that pressure sometimes socially, to to not only live through the experience, but then have to educate and inform people and contextualize the experience on their behalf?   - Tara VanderWoude Sure. You know, it's interesting what you said, that the the interpreting that you have to do. Yes. When I share, you know, sometimes I get this pushback. Are you sure that's what they meant or what was he wearing or how old was he or this or that? And I understand so much that people want to create a framework for their own understanding. At the same time. The impact of that can be, I don't believe you or you have to prove yourself or you really have to give me every detail so I can say, yep, that was a bad thing that they didn't.   - Tara VanderWoude You and I want to be real clear and knowing I know that that might not be people's intention, but just seeing the difference between the impact of their questions and maybe what their intention was.   - Tara VanderWoude So there is that piece and then there is this piece of I get requests all the time of what should I read or where should I go or what would be my next book that I should read. And on one hand, I totally get it. I've devoted some of my life to this, to this education and consulting.   - Tara VanderWoude And so when we're in a relationship and we're friends, I don't mind doing that at all because that's what friends do. We share our gifts. We share. You know, when you're my safe person and we have this relationship, we share with one another when it's a situation in which maybe we don't have that intimate of a relationship or you're just looking to me for for that knowledge and for me to do the work for you. Yes, it can feel it can feel like pressure.   - Tara VanderWoude And, you know, I joke around at some of the education sessions I do about really making sure that you you don't expect that people of color are your learning libraries, that you can just check in and out as you wish for your for your good. And is is it at all a reciprocal relationship or are you just just expecting that person to do the work for you? And, you know, you've probably heard this and said this maybe yourself, but we do live in 2021 and we have Google and we have an extensive there are resources.   - Tara VanderWoude Now, you have really no reason that you can't perhaps find yourself a book to read,   - Liesel Mertes Maybe an article or a podcast or video simply they've been curated with whatever medium of choice, you know,   - Tara VanderWoude So many curated lists that I my head's even spinning because there so much out there.   - Tara VanderWoude So on one hand, I get it. And again, I don't want to attribute wrong intention. And I am glad whenever someone wants to learn and reaches out and I will help. But yes, if you can also maybe be mindful of that when we do this. Yes, it takes our time. And then sometimes when we're sharing situations, it might also be an emotional toll on us to relive the experience that we are sharing with you, to relive it, to answer the questions.   - Tara VanderWoude And again, I want to be talking about some of these things. But let's let's make sure that we check the relationship that we have with that person. Do we have the right, even, so to speak, to ask such personal, intimate questions? Or are we expecting that simply because we expect that person to be the educator without without that intimate friendship already in place?   - Liesel Mertes Well, and what I hear throughout, you know, throughout those reflections is just the importance of paying attention to the humanity of the person that you're interacting with in a social context. You know, I talk about just radical attention to someone who's gone through something hard and even just concentrating on the social cues and actually thinking like what what impact could my words have? You were describing some of the the questions and the barrage. That's a type I talk about Interrogating Edward, who, you know, at their best, they they like getting to the bottom of things and they're great at research and understanding, and that's a high value.   - Liesel Mertes But when that's deployed in a social situation where you're just tone deaf to the emotion of the person in front of you and you're just focused on learning or getting to the bottom of things like. Rarely feels good to the person on the receiving end of it, you know, they feel like they're being dissected by that person instead of paid attention to in that moment and how it feels.   - Tara VanderWoude Yeah, I love that Interrogating Edward. I'm afraid that, you know of any of those Cheer-Up Cheryls and all of those that you just just shared throughout our conversation.   - Tara VanderWoude I might lean toward being an Interrogating Edward myself. So I'm glad I have a name for that.   - Liesel Mertes And, frankly, the more I teach the stuff, like when, you know, over the course of now, almost three years, I began and I was like, I'm just a few of these types. Like, I tend to be a Fix-It Frank or a Commiserating Candace, but the more I teach it, I'm like, oh, I can go to all of these trouble when under stress I can speak in multiple tongues of empathy misses, especially when I'm under my own stress.   - Liesel Mertes So it's just the importance of attention.   - Liesel Mertes Wow. I don't care if I want to be cognizant of your time.   - Liesel Mertes Is there anything that you would like to add that I didn't ask you?   - Tara VanderWoude I don't know that there is anything that that I that I want to add other than, you know, knowing that we have the support of other people who are not Asian during this time, that is really, really meaningful as well. That other people will talk about it will call out the hate depending on if you're a social media user or if you're someone who uses it regularly.   - Tara VanderWoude Is this going to be part of what you're talking about online? Obviously, there are some people who don't step foot online. And so we would I wouldn't expect that of that person. But if you're an avid social media user and you use that to talk about the things that matter to you, are you willing to incorporate this?   - Tara VanderWoude Are you willing to send that text to your friends, to the to the people that you know, to say, hey, I imagine it could have been a hard week that has been that has been so supportive of me, is just knowing that I'm not in it alone, not alone individually, but then not even alone as as a Korean American, as an Asian-American, but that there are others cross ethnic, cross racial who who care about this and who want to learn, grow and who want to take action when necessary toward toward the this hatred and this anti Asian sentiment of this past year plus.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you. That's really good.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Tara. The Asian American experience is all too often overlooked and underacknowledged.How is your language compounding this sense of exclusion?  As you talk about equity in the workplace and in culture, are you remembering to include the marginalization of Asian Americans?  This was a personal take-away for me and I am going to be adjusting my language, moving forwards, to incorporate the Asian experience when I talk about excluded groups.  It really is THAT bad.If you are a member of a majority White culture, you have probably had the privilege of not thinking about the Asian American experience.  As I listened to Tara, to the MANY stories she had of sexual predation and harassment, to the stories of threat and humiliation that her children have experienced, I realize there is so much going on that I have no idea about…and that is in addition to the awful violence populating our news page.  Tara encouraged us, if you have a social media presence where you talk about things you care about, give voice to this reality.  Help build awareness that Anti-Asian hate is not OK.  I have linked resources in the show notes because remember, the Internet has a TON of helpful resources and you should not make your Asian friend the equivalent of a good Google search.  As a friend or coworker, work to pay radical attention to your Asian friend or colleague as they express feelings of pain.Allow them to express their feelings without forcing them to justify them (like an Interrogating Edward).  Send a text, or a Starbucks card.  And if you don’t know what to say, that is OK too.  You can say something like, “I don’t even know what to say, but I want you to know that I hate this for you and I am here with you.”    OUTRO   Resources   Stop AAPI Hate: The center tracks and responds to incident of hate, violence, harassment, discrimination, shunning, and child bullying against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States. https://stopaapihate.org/about/   Anti-Asian Violence Resources:  https://anti-asianviolenceresources.carrd.co  

Jon Tesser Do I have value? Do I have skills? Am I ever going to get a job again? Is am I worthy? Am I worthy? I mean, it gets down to this idea of shame and worthiness. It gets really deep, right? This idea that I'm not worthy because I don't have a job. INTRO   In today’s episode, we are talking about the trauma of lay-offs.  And this is a rich conversation.  We are going to talk about how to fire someone with empathy, what it looks (and sounds like) when employers pile on the shame, and the emotional PTSD that can occur when you lose your job.  We are talking male expectations, class differences, and how lay-offs can actually make us better, more empathetic people.   My guest is Jon Tesser.  Jon is a husband, the father of two boys, and he doesn’t have much time for hobbies these days.  - Jon Tesser I'm a dad with two kids home during the pandemic. I watch them all the time. So hobbies don't really come by. Most of the stuff that I do for mastery is just ways to relax. So I'll play like an online video game on my iPod and try and master that. But is that something that I care to talk too much about or that I think is interesting?   - Jon Tesser Not necessarily. It's something that I do so that I can maintain a sense of sanity in a world where I'm constantly bombarded by people. Stimuli is the way that I put it. So, I mean, mastery for me is is is this it's this idea of human to human interaction and how can I how can I handle that? And what does it mean? And what is my place in the world? That's actually what I do for fun. Jon is a student and translator of human interaction.  His LinkedIn account has thousands of followers and his daily posts generate lots and lots of likes and comments.  - Liesel Mertes You you share on LinkedIn, you share on Medium. How would you define the content that you share?   - Jon Tesser Oh, it's a I have a great way of describing it, it's my crazy thoughts vomited onto a piece of paper essentially is what I say it is. I'm like, I'm thinking something and I have to write it down. And for some crazy reason, I also have to share it with the public, which includes my one hundred seven thousand followers on LinkedIn and on my blog.   - Jon Tesser And depending on what the content is and how I describe what it is, is it's just my thoughts and subjective opinions about the world and how I feel within my place, within that world.   - Jon Tesser So, for instance, I just put out a post that said, you know what, being in the spotlight in social media and interacting with people has made me paranoid because I believe that no matter that, that who's the next person who's going to trash me?   - Jon Tesser Right. I literally just put a post out about that. And I said very candidly, I'm actually quite paranoid that if I talk to somebody, they're going to be the next one who's going to spew some hate. Right. And this is actually coloring the way that I chat with people and has put me on guard.   - Jon Tesser It's content like that you don't see very often on on on social media where I'm putting it out there about how I feel. And you may or may not respond well to it, but I'm not putting a sheen of code over it. Right. It is. It's purely how I feel. And there's that's that's what I think people connect to.   Jon is also a career whisperer for early processionals, helping them grow in self-awareness and clarify next steps in their vocational journey.  This capacity for insight and care is borne out of living through some really hard stuff.  In the language that I use in my consulting, Jon has lived through disruptive life events.   - Jon Tesser I think the biggest disruptive life event was getting laid off three times within a period of five years while having children daycare to pay for a mortgage to pay for. That was a real sort of critical moment where I needed to essentially redefine my identity.   - Jon Tesser Life had been fairly easy up until that point. I'd done all the right things. I got my MBA, I bought a house, I got married, I had the right careers.   - Jon Tesser I was making a lot of money and everything was very easy and very upper middle class. And I never really had major adversity in my life. When you get an MBA, you go to MBA school, you are trained to believe that your career is your life, that your identity is wrapped up in what you do and how much money you make and the things that you buy.   - Jon Tesser And this was this was my my idea, right, Liesel? That that life was about, you know, career and finding meaning in work and treating that as what you're supposed to do in life and the disruptive major event where all of that could be taken away and it's literally a snap of fingers and say, nope, that's that's your livelihood taken away and not just your livelihood, but your identity and your self-esteem that really that forced me to become the person that I am today, which is someone who has sort of decided that careers and companies are temporary and are not something to get wrapped up in.   - Jon Tesser That's a lot of where my content on LinkedIn was forged because of these. I don't want to call it PTSD, but in some ways it is. There is some traumatic stress disorder that comes from losing your livelihood so often in such a short period of time.   - Liesel Mertes Can I can I ask you a little bit more about that? What what surprised you about the emotional journey in the path of getting off?   - Liesel Mertes I think the shows like that, there's a lot of emotions that underpin, like the receiving of the news, all of the logistics. So I'd love to hear more about that.   - Jon Tesser I think it's the shock that I could actually lose my job, that I was considered to not be valuable enough to stay at a company. I mean, you're talking to someone in me who's always been a star performer. It's always outperformed at every job I had. And then all of a sudden I'm being told by a company that you're not a star performer. In fact, you're not even useful here. You're not like this is this is the self-esteem hit, right?   - Jon Tesser When you think of yourself as one way as the person who's needed. Right. As the person who's always succeeded because they're so smart and they're so ambitious and they're so hard working that they make things happen.   - Jon Tesser And all of a sudden, when you are told that you don't matter, that you don't exist here, that the work you do isn't needed and that your livelihood is now taken away, you're not making money, you're forced to reassess. This idea is like, am I valuable?   Right. These are the you talk about the emotional process. What am I do I have value? Do I have skills? Am I ever going to get a job again? Is am I worthy? Am I worthy? I mean, it gets down to this idea of shame and worthiness. It gets really deep, right? This idea that I'm not worthy because I don't have a job. And we're told in America that if you don't have a job, you're a loser, you're you're a pariah.   - Jon Tesser You're not you're not a good person. Right. And we we the unemployed in this country, they they they internalize this. And a lot of ways because our culture says that you are where you work. And so, again, a lot of great things came out of this, which for me was to reject the societal understanding that we are where we work. To me, that is literally no longer the case. I am not tied into my identity at work.   - Jon Tesser Work is a place where I do something that I am quite capable of doing and I get paid money to do it. Otherwise I'm living my life. And if they take away like if I get if I get laid off right, then my identity is not wrapped up in my job. So it's not that big a deal. Right. I'm going to get laid off and that just means that I'm just not making money now. So all I need to do now that I've been laid off is go find a way to make money.   - Jon Tesser It becomes much more of a practical thing when. You when you use you disorient yourself away from your identity, being your job and your title and the number of people who report to you and your place in the hierarchy to a job is a place I earn money, which is essentially my mantra right now, and something that I try and teach to the younger generation as well.   - Liesel Mertes As you as you say that, you know, until the arc of that story I'm struck, that there was, as you noted, some of this loss of.   - Liesel Mertes Identity, in some ways, the questioning of who am I? I'm struck that in many companies, especially Pre-COVID, we're spending more time with our co-workers of our waking hours than we are at home. What was it like? Did you feel like you had lost a significant community of people in getting laid off? Like was that part of some of the sense of loss?   - Jon Tesser It's interesting you say that because ever since I started getting laid off so often, I would become friendly with people at work. But it was never I. Maybe there it's really interesting that you mention this. There might have been a guardedness for me to get too close to people because I didn't want to create that community because I knew that it was is temporary. Right. So I never really felt too much like I lost that sense of community because I put the guard off and didn't allow it to be created.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I can I can think of a friend and colleague of mine, and I was listening to her speak recently and she had gotten laid off and hired back into a much larger company. And she said, you know, for me in the past, I've always been like the community builder. You know, I want to talk. I want to hear from people. And she said, I don't know if I'll ever be that way again. I'm just so happy to walk in and clock out.   - Liesel Mertes And I'm just tired and I don't even know. It's not even a question of right or wrong. As much as I hear how that could happen for her. And I hear dynamics of that in your story,   - Jon Tesser It's literally the same for me to me, even at my job. Now, I've created a bit of separation between myself and my coworkers, not on purpose just because for me, work is work. It's not a place where I meet people to be friends with and to get to know them outside of work. It's a place for me to work with them as colleagues to clock out and then live my life outside of that with my friends, family and others.   - Jon Tesser So I absolutely identify with that idea that creating this community at work is is not worth it for me. And it's not something that I seek out because again, then you're tying more of your identity into your job. So there's there's a sense of defensiveness and protection that happens when you when you are in this situation so often where you just start to think that this is going to be temporary and there's no there's no real reason to build up these sort of more intimate bonds with the people that you're surrounded by.   - Liesel Mertes I am. That sounds so understandable, and I can imagine a number of listeners are relating to that, I'd like to I'd like to just kind of like peer under the edges of that statement a little bit more, because on the one hand, I really like the emphasis of you're much more than your job clocking in and clocking out. I think there is something that, you know, I and others are trying to build right now in talking about things like empathy at work to say we want work actually to be a more human place where people could expect that they could have some level of support, a resonance that we're not just the jobs that we do.   - Liesel Mertes How does a statement like that sit with you if you as you think about, you know, how you're kind of poised to engage with work right now, saying you get less?   - Jon Tesser Yeah, where I come when you make a statement like that is this is not going to surprise you at all, it sounds to me a bit Pollyanna ish that we can create a workplace of empathy. To me, there's workplaces. Our God is going to sound so awful, but it does feel this way. They're their war zones and a lot of ways because the goal of the goal of the workplace isn't to excel. The goal of the workplace is to make sure that you wake up every day and you have a paycheck so that your kids don't go hungry or you have a roof over your head.   - Jon Tesser When you think of it in that stripped down manner, it becomes like if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, work can even fulfill safety. You don't feel safe in that way. And this could just be me and my PTSD speaking. But if you don't feel safe in an environment, then how are you going to use a job to self actualize? You have to be safe before you can come to before you can use mature human emotions such as wisdom, empathy and compassion.   - Jon Tesser There's and it's almost impossible to feel safe knowing that your head is on the chopping block every day. The wrong move means you're gone. Right. And so then if you think that way, how are you going to be able to empathize, empathize with people and create a nurturing environment in a workplace that's literally like, I win, you lose and you get cut out and I get the promotion. How do you bring in mature human emotions when most workplaces operate in this fashion?   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, and, you know, it's never about judging someone else's experience, I hear how that perspective is really congruent with what you've experienced, you know, and that uncertainty and that feeling of being disposable and not being safe. And I agree with that. If there is not a sense of safety, it's it's difficult to bring more than just survival instincts to the workplace. And it's interesting for that, because that is something that oftentimes I hear people from less privileged communities at work talking about, like women in the workplace can feel that way because of marginalization or people from racialized communities, especially saying, you know, I'm not safe.   - Liesel Mertes So, yeah, that's that's in line with what I think a number of people are articulating and definitely what I'm wanting to help do and help skill people up to say, from the top down, what does it mean to actually prioritize safety and care and not just have that be things on your website or a cheap catchphrases, but actually things that you embed in your policies and your procedures and your daily interactions?   - Jon Tesser It's tough, right? Because at the end of the day, the employer and your boss can fire you. And that is a sector that's always sitting over your head. Right. And so, again, like it's it's a philosophical debate. But knowing that, is it really possible to bring those really those true emotions to a place where you are disposable at will? It's in your contract. It's called at will employment. Right. The employer can do whatever they want.   - Jon Tesser And there are very few protections in the US for workers in the private sphere. You know, it's not like you have tenure at a university or that you're working in a government job where you have certain levels of safety. Or my wife, for instance, who works for the Board of Education and has a union, these people are protected. So you can bring in some of those work environments, more things like empathy. But when you're in the private sphere and it's it's all about, you know, am I being seen as somebody who's productive?   - Jon Tesser And if I'm not being seen as somebody who's productive, I'm basically on the chopping block. It's really hard to get out of that survival mechanism.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Jon’s interview in just a moment.  But first, I want to take a moment to recognize our sponsor:  Handle with Care Consulting.  Employee engagement matters.  And especially in the midst of COVID, disruptive life events and compassion fatigue are taking their toll.  We can help you create a culture of not only safety but care.  Through keynotes, coaching, and certificate programs, let’s build empathy at work, together. MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes I talk with employers about even to the point of when you let someone go, there is a more or less empathetic way of engaging in that process. Does that statement, as you reflect on being let go three different times? Do you think this company did it better? This one was worse.   - Jon Tesser Like, ah, there there was definitely there is definitely better and worse. Well, we wish them well.   - Jon Tesser Two of them were absolute nightmares. One and one of them I actually talked about on LinkedIn. And it was probably the most terrifying post I ever put out. And it was one of the most awful experiences one could go through. The person who laid me off from one of the companies told me specifically to my face that I was the wrong person for the job and that when they asked everybody around my company whether I was worth keeping on board or added any value, no one stood up for me.   - Jon Tesser And he told me this as I was getting laid off to my face. And it was first of   - Liesel Mertes Talk about the shame and judgment.   - Jon Tesser Yeah. So he's bringing the she's bringing the shame and judgment to the forefront and saying you should be ashamed and judged and you are you are useless and you are worthless and you don't belong here. And I'm going to make sure you know that and I'm going to make sure that you leave here. You're done. Yeah. And it was and all for no reason.   - Jon Tesser And that was handled absolutely terribly. The first time I got laid off was very similar. The person sat me down and said, you haven't been performing here. You're you're gone, essentially. And I was shocked by that. But, yeah, those situations were absolutely horrible. Third time was at a larger company and it was handled fairly well. This is a company that lays people all the time and it's in media entertainment.   - Jon Tesser They had a clear process in mind. They made it. It was very I didn't feel alone. I think that day there, like 30 percent of the workforce was laid off. So I felt like I was part of a people who were getting laid off. The the the severance package was extremely generous. And so I wasn't too upset by it. I kind of saw it coming. Right. Like, when you're getting laid off so often, you're always see it coming. But this one, I actually kind of saw it coming.   - Jon Tesser So it wasn't it wasn't so it was bad, but it was it was actually the third one was the moment where I was like I literally said to myself, I am done working because any job I'm going to get is just a ticking time bomb for when they're going to. Right. And yet it was at that moment where I was really pursuing my own business and doing getting my own independent consulting so that if I lost something, it was going to be on me, it wasn't going to be on a company.   - Jon Tesser And so I went through that process after the third layoffs.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that one you you you've used the phrase a few times, but just some of that PTSD of thinking. Yeah, what's the impending sense of danger that is now feels implicit in what I do? I, I imagine, you know, it's hard it's hard for anyone to be laid off. There are still like prevailing social narratives about what a man needs to be a man with a family, a man as a breadwinner.   - Liesel Mertes Did you feel like you're suddenly thrown on like reckoning with those narratives internally in ways that felt hard or even from external people? Did you have people in your community who kind of amped up the pressure with some of those narratives?   - Jon Tesser Yeah, I mean, it's a good question, those those prevailing narratives of the man as the breadwinner, the man who earns the money, the man takes care of the house, are still ingrained in me, even though as much as I want to deny them, they're still there.   - Jon Tesser It's still my responsibility to have a job that makes enough money so that everybody can eat. Right. And so I've always put that pressure on myself. Now that you mention it, it's more explicit that it exists. And so when you lose the job, you lose that role and you lose the value that you think you have in society. I think it's a very accurate statement to say that men are expected to be, quote unquote, breadwinners. And when they are not breadwinners, what is their value?   - Jon Tesser This is a huge societal problem in the US, particularly among lower class and lower middle class men who are finding themselves out of work more and more. But it's still prevalent with folks like myself.   - Jon Tesser Now, what makes it harder and I'm not saying I feel bad for myself, but what makes it harder for the sort of upper middle class, well educated folks like myself is that you're expected to be working right, that you're expected and you're surrounded by everybody in your community who is working and who does have a job and who is successful and is who is supporting their family.   - Jon Tesser And when you're laid off and you're one of me, you don't feel like you fit into that community. So there's a lot of dynamics here. And you can probably have an entire conversation just about societal expectations around this. But, yeah, for sure it does. It does wear on you. Yeah,   - Liesel Mertes What were what were some of the most helpful things, whether it was within your professional network or your personal network that people did to come alongside you in the aftermath of these layoffs?   - Jon Tesser Oh, that's a great question. It was really the individual people. I have a very close friend from college who was really there for me the first time I got laid off. And I would just go over and hang out at her house with her baby at the time and just feel connected to people, really get out and be around people and talk and interact like a normal person. Obviously, this was not during the pandemic. So you could do things like that.   - Jon Tesser Having those people who supported you through that and who were made sure that they were there and set up the time to listen to you and talk to those people. Well, I'll keep around for life. As I said in a post recently, when you go through stuff, you find out who your real friends are. And each time I was laid off, I definitely found out who my real friends are, the ones who are going to be there when the chips are down.   - Jon Tesser It's one of the positive things about getting laid off is really knowing that you have to rely on people. You can't be doing it yourself and finding those people you can rely on and realize that they're there for you is very it's one of the triumphs of the human spirit. Honestly.   - Liesel Mertes It sounds like there were those people who showed up. Were there any people that you would have expected to show up and be supportive? That faded into the background?   - Jon Tesser It was always the bosses that were surprising. The people who I had reported to just were not there universally across all three jobs. People that I have reported into kind of shirked away from their responsibility to help out. And I think that gets back to this idea of empathy, empathetic layoffs. Right. I believe that it's your duty as a manager to make sure that if somebody is laid off, you do your damnedest to help them land back on their feet.   - Jon Tesser That's the least that you can do to help them, because they're a human being, deserves dignity and deserve support. Those people who did not have my back during those situations, I hate to say it, but I haven't forgotten that. And it's not something that you raise because you expect a boss to be there for you to make sure that you're going to land on your feet. And in none of my situations where they there.   - Jon Tesser So is there a sense of bitterness? No, I think there's more of a sense of a little bit of sadness around that truth that people who you would expect to be there for you aren't. But it's definitely was the case that I did expect some sort of help or put me in touch with their network, this that they just didn't want to do it.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, as you as you look back, you know, and not that it's the person who has not been supported their responsibility, but as you reflect on it, you did a couple of times what what would have really meant something to you from those bosses? Like what would you have hoped for?   - Jon Tesser John, here's a group of people I'd like you to talk to, I'm going to make some introductions. I think that that would be really well fit for for talking to them, getting to know them. I know how good you are, John, and your job, your super valuable. And I think that by talking to these people, you'll show your value. Do you see what's done there? Do you see what happens there?   - Jon Tesser That's what I did for my analysts when she was laid off and this post went viral. I don't show off much on LinkedIn, but this was kind of a show off post where I had a laid off analyst and I got her a job right away. And I introduced her to my network and I made sure that it happened and I made sure to introduce her as the best analyst that ever worked for me. Right.   - Jon Tesser So I took the lessons that I learned from my bosses and said, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to support my employees, how they need to be supported. It comes back to the idea of an empathetic workplace. Right. So just being just knowing that they that your boss can say can vouch for what you do and repair your dignity would mean a lot.   - Jon Tesser It's not a very big thing that you're asking for a little bit of recognition as a human who's worthy and somebody who needs a little bit of help.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and what you're saying has alignment with what I've experienced, as I have done as I've gone in and done communication coaching for downsizing with companies, which is that the people who are doing the reduction in force or the layoffs, that the whole event is its own workplace trauma for everyone involved.   - Liesel Mertes And that doesn't mean that it affects people with the same degree of like force all the way through. But for the people who are doing it, I, I sense this like very prevailing sentiment. Oftentimes they just want to get past it like they hate they don't want to have to fire people. They don't want to have to have this and they just want to like put it, you know, in the rearview mirror and be thinking about the next thing, the next way they can reduce, you know, the next strategic goal and how that disconnect.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, it can really be painful both for those who are laid off and also for their coworkers who might be fearful for their own job loss or missing their coworkers. And when the posture of management and leadership is just like we just want to move on and pretend like this never happened, it really does widespread damage.   - Jon Tesser Yeah. Yeah, I agree.   - Liesel Mertes Did did anyone say or do anything that was immensely unhelpful that you would say like when somebody who's gotten laid off like this is just dumb?Don't do or say this.   - Jon Tesser I mean, I think I walked you through an example earlier come to mind. No, it really is.   - Jon Tesser It is this idea that you don't add fuel to the fire, that it's already a shameful enough activity, that you don't have to then say and you suck to there. You don't have to remind somebody of that. I think that this idea of empathy and understanding that somebody's going through a traumatic life, events such as this doesn't need to be piled on in any way.   - Jon Tesser And it's not something that you'll ever forget. Right. Like these are indelible moments that are imprinted in my mind that I recall them so clearly because they are trauma events. And you don't want to add to that. You're probably not thinking of that as you're laying somebody off, that you're creating an indelible trauma moment. It's not like your thought process, but you are healing and you're handling of that is is is crucial and critical to this person being able to recover.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm, yeah. Is there anything else, John, that you would like to say about? The disruption of getting laid off that I didn't get a chance to you, yeah,   - Jon Tesser I mean, I do want to talk. You know, we've talked mostly about the negatives, and I don't want everybody here to, like, run away because it's such a negative conversation. But I think the positives out of this is the incredible adversity and the ability to deal with adversity.   - Jon Tesser And resilience, and that leads to the cultivation of mature human traits, right? If I hadn't been laid off three times in five years and been treated so poorly, would I have had the wherewithal to treat my employees so well when she got laid off? Probably not. Right, I would not have thought of it that way, I would have been like, well, she's gone like whatever she's got to deal with it, right? It would have been very like like it's on her very unsympathetic and very non emotional intelligence derives.   - Jon Tesser but I think because of this experience, I have a preternatural empathy to understand the experience of the jobless rate. And so the positive that's come out of it is this.   - Jon Tesser I've created an entire community on LinkedIn around being supportive of people who are scared and anxious and insecure in their job situation. And I'm that person who offers them a bright, optimistic support mechanism. That's an incredible positive thing that's come out of it, that's come out of the adversity of this.   - Jon Tesser You know what I'm saying? Where, like, I wouldn't have had that if I hadn't dealt with these traumatic events. And if you hear the way that I'm talking about it, I was forced to come to a reckoning on my identity and who I am as a person. And I've come out as a better person because of it.   - Jon Tesser And I think a lot of people who've been laid off would agree with that statement that as you get over the hump, as you deal with the adversity and as you become more resilient, you become a better person because of it.   - Jon Tesser And I would definitely agree with that statement. I like who I am now more than I was, more than I like who I was prior to getting laid off.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that, and I think that that's true, it's not that it's not that hard things always lead to resiliency or an increased capacity, but they can be that invitation. If you go through the work to getting to that point, I, I recognize that there is an element of choosing and work to bring that spirit of positivity and not just trauma.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the things that were important for you to do or engage in in the aftermath of your third firing?   - Jon Tesser Yeah, it's a it's the best question you can ask. The coping mechanisms are to allow yourself to feel what you feel as one thing and then to also say to yourself, you know, how much of this unhealthy feeling can I deal with? So I'm going to get real. I'm going to get real vulnerable here for a second. I've been I'm not I don't have clinical depression, but I did have situational depression for obvious reasons. So each time I would get laid off, I'd be like, OK, you know what?   - Jon Tesser I don't want to feel so anxious and sad and not able to deal with my situation. I'm going to go on antidepressants, right. To deal with the temporary situation I'm on here so that I can have a clear head for interviews and get a job. Right. It's these kinds of coping mechanisms that that you learn about and that help you get through through the situations. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, thank you for sharing that, because, yeah, it's it is it's own trauma and to be able to take the steps to purposefully rebuild, sometimes feeling your feelings feels really crappy. What did you do when those moments of feeling, your feelings just felt overwhelming?   - Jon Tesser I had drugs and I'm not talking about opiate or cocaine. I'm talking about antianxiety antidepressants. If things got to be too overwhelming, I dealt with it and I said, you know what? I'm not strong enough to deal with this. This is too traumatic. This has happened too much. I need to take things to help me physically deal with this because I life what life just dealt me too much and life wins, right? It's like you that is not a sign of weakness is actually a sign of strength to say I need something to help me.   - Jon Tesser I'm going to I'm not going to be ashamed to do it, do it because I need it, because this is a situation way too much for my humans, for me as a human being to to deal with. So I'm going to take those things that can help and realize that it's temporary. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I know that you are a man who also makes space for meditation and contemplation, was that part of some of that recent train journey as well at that time?   - Jon Tesser Yeah, absolutely. You know, taking walks to clear your head, being outside, seeing people, like I mentioned, a very an intense meditation practice was also very important. I believe at those times that I was laid off, I would do one half hour in the morning and one half hour at night of of breath meditation to really, really center and just try and deal with the fact that the emotions and the thoughts are coming at you in ways that are hard to deal with.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, John, thank you for sharing with listeners today and today's podcast. I know that you also share regularly on some of your channels of influence if people want to hear more from you, where the best places to find you.   - Jon Tesser Sure. Search for me on LinkedIn. I'm under https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-tesser- even though I call myself Jon here. And if you want to read a little bit more of the content, that's probably closer to the stuff that we talked about here on the podcast. I do have a blog as well. It's mahler101.medium.com Möller, and they are one to one medium dot com. And that's where I offer sort of more of my or deeper meditations on things and on life. Those are the two areas where you can really learn a lot about me if you're so inclined.   MUSICAL TRANSITION Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Jon Lay-offs are a life trauma for the men and women that are being let go.As an employer, consider how you can have these conversations with care, eliminating unnecessary shame on top of the transition.  Do you have a clear plan?  A severance package?  As a boss, can you use your network to help someone find their next role?  And, consider this a point 1b.  There is an emotional toll to how you do layoffs.  Jon is a man who wants to be empathetic, but he has found himself less and less willing to give of himself, in a deep way, to his working environment.  Are your policies and practices towards lay-off contributing to this workplace disconnect?  Because it will affect both those that leave as well as those that stay.  And creativity and collaboration can suffer when people are more guarded and less connected at work.  The cost of the trauma is high. Medications can help in the process of coping with loss.Jon tells how going on anti-depressants was an essential part of navigating his job loss.  You can get more information and resources from your doctor.  “When you go through stuff, you find out who your real friends are.”Jon found great comfort in relying on those around him.  The friends that invited him over to play with their baby, the friends that were just available to talk.  If you know someone who has been laid off, make that call, send that text or email.  Your support matters. And finally, as a bonus take-away.Remember, you are not your work.  You are who you are and work is what you do.  This is deep wisdom for all of us.   OUTRO

Jill Harding Whenever I share those stories, people like you look so, so optimistic and you're so bubbly on life with what you've been through. And I said because at the end of the day, my kiddos fortunate, they have taught me a lot about life in ways that I don't know if we didn't go through those experiences, one, I could have taught them as a parent. And secondly, I learned a lot by their endurance, resilience and what they all went through.   INTRO   Sometimes in life, one disruptive life event falls fast on the heels of another.  This can be hard in your personal life…but it can feel especially devastating when the pain affects your children.  And that is what we are going to be talking about today.  My guest is Jill Harding.  She is many things, which I will tell you more about in a second, but she has parented two children through some really hard stuff.  Her oldest child, Grant, was diagnosed with leukemia and her middle child, Berkley, had a life-threatening bout of E.coli.  You will get a behind the scenes look at the challenges and even joy along the journey and learn how to be a better manager, coworker, or friend to people living through similar situations.  Jill lives with her husband and three children in small-town Indiana, in Morgantown.  She has known her husband since the mid-90s and they always said that they would never live in Morgantown or own minivan or live in a log cabin.  But things change.      Jill Harding We live in a little town which we love and adore Morgantown. But I laugh when people ask that question because my husband and I have known each other since the late 90s and we always said no log cabin, no minivan and no Morgantown. And guess what?   Jill Harding We have a minivan and we live in Morgantown and we pass a log cabin to get to our house every day just on the irony of those early and that we don't even think of at our place like it's perfect.   Liesel Mertes All of the cup holders, the door is right, minivan, they're great.   Jill Harding And I love it. You go out and you're grabbing food on the go and they ask you if you need a cup holder. I'm like, Are you kidding me? I got a million in here.   Jill is a marketer, a high school basketball coach, an entrepreneur, and a small business owner.  She is raising three children with her husband.  And when it snows, Jill and her family love to ski and would do it all day, every day if she had the chance.    Liesel Mertes When you and I realize at this stage of life, it can be a precious commodity, especially with COVID. But when you have time to yourself, do you have any hobbies or like ways that you really like to fill your discretionary time?   Jill Harding And we do and I actually my husband and I, we like to just chill out and we have a pretty heavily wooded area that we live in. So we just like to take hikes. And and I like to do them by myself or my husband or even the kiddos. But I really feel like that just rejuvenates all of us.   Jill is also an avid reader; she loves books on leadership and entrepreneurship, but she also makes time for other genres.    Jill Harding And then I also my son is a huge, huge, avid reader, breaking school records, even with his reading accounts while he was in elementary. So he and I kind of share books, too, with his love for reading. In The Land of Stories is a new book series that we started getting into. So reading is another obsession of ours.   Liesel Mertes Ada, my eldest, loves Land of Stories and I know what that is like. It's its own kind of distinct pleasure.   Liesel Mertes I also love to read but a track with one's children. And so Ada and I are just reading together right now.   Liesel Mertes Oh, it's it's a keeper of the Lost Cities, which is a fantasy sort of romp into the land of elves, ogres, et cetera, et cetera, that it's like they're big like 350 page books and there's like eight in the series.   Liesel Mertes So I was reading far too much heavy non-fiction and I took a divergence over the last month and a half. And now just reading elves now at see that.   Jill Harding But I fact that you can talk about it like my sons always like where are you at in the book? And, you know, I asked him the same thing and it's cool to kind of chit chat back and forth on where we're at and live that dream happy together for sure.   Liesel Mertes Well, and I also resonate with I, I feel like I say often that our family is everybody's at their best when we're like outside in the woods.   Liesel Mertes Sometimes it can be a battle to get there with fussing, but it's always so I don't have any gloves or, you know, what have you. What an amazing. But once we get out there, it's so amazing.   Jill Harding We're fortunate to we have a little creek that runs in the bottom of our woods. And just to sit there, I mean, obviously right now it's kind of cold and frozen, but it's still cool just to watch it because, you know, natural beauty for sure.   Liesel Mertes There's something about the just the movement of water and what it brings also, which is its own goodness.   Liesel Mertes Well, you know, children and life with children. That's some of what brings us to this conversation. And I know that you have familiarity with the good people and staff at Riley Hospital, much like I do within my own story.   Liesel Mertes What brought you to Riley when you were pregnant with your second child?   Jill Harding So basically our journey with our son, Grant, he I was telling you before he actually was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of two and a half, and originally our pediatrician was, you know, just running bloodwork, doing this on the other.   Jill Harding And at one point, I guess that that motherly instinct just kicked in and like, no, this isn't good enough. I feel like I know my son. Yes, Grant was our first child, but I feel like I know that this son well enough to know something's just not right.   Jill Harding So I push back to the pediatrician probably more aggressively than they were expecting and just said we get a fine results today because I can't see my son in suffering any longer and they won't ask him,   Liesel Mertes What were you in, what sorts of symptoms was he manifesting?   Jill Harding Yeah, so it was shortly after Christmas and he would not even he got a train table. And if anyone's been around toddlers, two year old toddlers, once they start walking, they don't stop. They run in the raster and they're crazier than ever. And he got to a point where he got a train table for Christmas and he wouldn't even stand up to play at the train table at a little over two. And I was like, someone just doesn't make sense.   Grant continued to languish.  He got strep throat.  There were misdiagnoses by the team of pediatricians.  No meaningful answers.  Which was when the doctors send Grant to Riley Children’s Hospital in the state capitol, Indianapolis.  This was mid-January in 2013.  Grant was put on the 7th floor for infectious disease.    Jill Harding They said we're going to not let you guys leave until we figure out what it is. And we were OK with that because as you mentioned, I was pregnant with our second child.   Jill Harding So we're like, OK, we're going to figure this out because. Obviously, our son means the world to us, and so we stayed there for a couple of days. This was the twenty second, twenty fifth they finally figured out what was going on. And we were so fortunate at the time because the chief of basically the leukemia society are basically our doctor.   Jill Harding He was actually the one that was there doing rounds that day that was diagnosed, which is really mind blowing if you think about it, because Dr. Thallon was actually there and he's the chief and he was one doing rounds.   Jill Harding And he's the one that came in such a compassionate, humble doctor. I mean, more so than I think I've ever been around in my entire life. But he just came in, let us have our moments. He did a spinal tap right in the room with us just to confirm that we were dealing with leukemia, because then once you determine it's leukemia, there's various different types of leukemia that you can have.   Jill Harding And in this case, Grant had what they call HLL, which is if you're going to have the leukemia at two and a half, it was best that he had the HLL as opposed to the AML. So we were fortunate there in that regards. You see a silver lining. It was hard at the time, of course, but once we found that out, then we basically, you know, had a moment. They moved us to the fifth floor and treatment started.   Jill Harding And it was, again, pretty amazing that we had the chief there within the hospital setting that new leukemia very well and was able to walk us through the steps and such a truly compassionate individual. And he had grandchildren himself. So he had kids, my and David's age, which was nice because he knew how to talk to us and help cope with the situation.   Liesel Mertes Well, and as I hear you say in those parts of the story, I feel like it's helpful just to to color around the edges, because there are a couple of things that are going on, right. Like you're seven months pregnant. Also, you guys are not from Indianapolis, but you're in Indianapolis, you know, doing tests at Riley. Are you guys staying at the Ronald McDonald House? Are you in a nearby hotel? Because there's this painful thing that happens with your young child that they're suddenly in the hospital and you're having to recalibrate life to be able to be present. What was that stress like for you guys?   Jill Harding Yeah, that's actually a great question, because we are so fortunate to have family and friends that just basically helped us, people that just came out the woodworks really just to really help be a support system. We actually have a daycare and we our youngest still goes to that daycare today that we have a daycare where they just were showered us with love and ways to support us, to help us with our other just home and just things at home that we need to help with.   Jill Harding And my parents and David's parents both live close by to so grandparents, two sets of grandparents living close by. But thankfully, it's about a forty five minute drive for us. We basically, again, being very pregnant, it was uncomfortable, I'll forget that.   Jill Harding But it still was worth every moment to stay there with great Dave and I. Basically, I was considered basically I was a freelancer at the time and so I had my own business. So flexibility and that I mean, if I had a computer, I could pretty much do my work anywhere.   Jill Harding So that was nice. And then David worked for Indiana Farm Bureau insurance and they were extremely flexible with him working remote. So Dave and I kind of know how to work remote before our even what we're going to do current day is we were able to basically just be there.   Jill Harding We had our computers and thankfully I was still pregnant with our middle child. So it was just Dave and myself and Grant. So we basically just lived in that hospital. They kept us just in the actual in his floor on the fifth floor.   Jill Harding We didn't have to access the Ronald McDonald House other than like sometimes we would go just to get a break from the hospital room itself, take turns and so forth, and utilize the services that they do provide, like meals and so forth that they do provide through that service. And we also have since then paid it back a little, too, just because we know the importance of families who are driving in much more than what we are.   Liesel Mertes Yeah, I remember as as we have gotten care at Riley, just even sitting close by to a Check-In desk and, you know, like, where are you coming from today?   Liesel Mertes And people being like Louisville, all of which is a regional hub of people coming from all over.   Jill Harding Yeah. And we were actually I mean. Forty five minutes. It was it's not a big deal to us, honestly, because we were so fortunate that we had in the care and we would drive farther if we had to. But we're used to driving a half hour really pretty much anywhere. So ready for that we do so.   Liesel Mertes And it was so treatment begins for leukemia. How long was he in the hospital? And then when you coming back for continued treatment beyond that initial hospitalization time?   Jill Harding Yeah. So leukemia is one of those. The cure rate is high. Last I knew when we were looking at the numbers, it's ninety four percent. But the same token, it's a pretty long process.   Grant was placed into a trial program where he would come in for chemotherapy treatments over a course of three years.    Jill Harding So Grant was diagnosed at the age of two and a half. So January of 2013, he was diagnosed. So basically from that January 2013, he basically had three and a half years that we were in and out of Riley during that course of time, and we still actually go to Riley.   Jill Harding We're coming up on so through to have your process pretty aggressive. Aggressive in regards to the chemotherapy. I don't know if you've ever been around anyone that's had it, but to see a young child,   Jill Harding we would laugh because we can laugh about it now because I was very pregnant, right, with my Berkely, my middle child, and I was always hungry.   Jill Harding And then Grant had to be on steroids for 30 days. So he was always really hungry. So we're eating at ungodly hours like 2:00 a.m. He wants chili all of a sudden. But the challenging thing would be on chemotherapy. It kills the good and bad cells. So his body, basically his ANC, which is your ability to fight off infection, was oftentimes next to zero or zero. And so he couldn't need stuff that was leftovers from the night before that we put in refrigerator.   Jill Harding He couldn't eat stuff out in restaurants because it is speck of germ that he could potentially good could cause him to get really sick and can't afford to get sick because his body would have a hard time hearing being sick on top of what he was going through. So I would be out and I tell that story because it makes me laugh now so I could think I was pregnant. I said I would be making chili like two a.m. in the morning and I had to make it from scratch because he could eat with food.   Liesel Mertes Was it was that was that your reality for the duration of the three and a half years of needing to have a certain level of hyper vigilance?   Jill Harding Yes, it definitely was. And I think that we got told and I kudos to our support system and my husband, too, that they were really surprised, the social worker that we dealt with and then obviously his nurses and doctors, that we weren't more hospitalized with Grant, that he was had the fewest hospitalizations with what he was going through because of just our diligence and just awareness when someone we had so many people that wanted to bring us groceries, for instance, and when they would bring us groceries, David and I would be wiping them down with bleach wipes before we even brought it up in the house.   Jill Harding I mean, we were. To a degree, we got such a pretty Cold War, you did, we did, and we always laughed, too, because it was cold, right? It was about this time of year when we were in the thick of it and we laughed because we have we have a big picture window in our dining room. And so we would have all the blinds open and people would come visit Grant through the actual and talk back and forth with walkie talkies to the glass on one side outside.   Jill Harding We'd be on the inside and they so speak to some people would bring over toys and they would bring double the toys again. We'd walk them down with bleach, Grant play with the ones inside and they would be playing the same ones outside. So it was kind of cool. Just some of those things, like you said, we we did just out of we had to get super creative because obviously this is a child. We don't want to take away his childhood.   Jill Harding We have good memories. But this is challenging to go through for him and for us to see him go through it. And I think the beginning to his once we had Berkeley, it was nice because obviously, you know, given the new baby from getting sick was a little easier, too, because she was always in the house with us doing the routine we have with grandma.   Liesel Mertes So you really think as a child, as a baby baby, anyway, I not just the just the innovative kindness of people, you know, coming over with with double the toys and playing, you know, some time has passed as you go back and think about that time I'm struck that you're doing so many things like you're a business person, you are mothering an infant, you're managing the elevated health risks of a child with leukemia.   Liesel Mertes What were some of the what did like a dark day look like for you? What did your feelings of overwhelm like? When would they come up with they catch you off guard?   Jill Harding Yeah, because, again, Grant was our first child, right, so we didn't know, we still don't know where does parenting right. You just kind of learn as you go along. This is the knack of being a parent. But I think the moment when it was challenging the most is, you know, having Berkeley, having a brand new baby, baby infant, trying to nurse her and do all the right things that, you know, the pressures of just raising a child and then making sure that I give her the attention needed, even though she's she still has needs and attention that she needs.   Jill Harding Right. From a mother and father, but not letting that distract from even our care from Grant. I feel like sometimes it was kind of that emotional head game that we played because we know Grant needs extra special attention. We had to make sure we got medicines a certain time. We had doctors appointments on a regular basis, balancing those elements that we know him well, but yet not neglecting or not giving the attention that Berkely needed as a young baby.   Jill Harding I think those things then obviously sleep deprived from it all.   MUSICAL TRANSITION Back to Jill’s story in a moment, because there is still so much more ahead.  But I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  We know that this year is full of all kinds of stress, and it is hard to know if you are giving your people what they need to survive, stabilize, and thrive in this constantly changing environment.  In all of the confusion, empathy is the skill that your leaders and your team need to build a thriving culture.  And Handle with Care Consulting can help.  With keynotes, workshops, and executive coaching options, we give you the tools to put empathy to work.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Liesel Mertes I know within my own story, there's our daughter Mercy died and then it was.   Liesel Mertes Maybe three years later for where we got the news that our son, Moses, had a really profound heart condition, that he was going to need lots of open heart surgeries, all that to say going through one hard thing with your children is not a guarantee that you won't go through other hard things later on down the path. I know that that has congruence with your own story. What happened with E. coli and your family?   Jill Harding When you hit the nail on the head, it's hard and I'm sorry you had to go through that, too, but I know in the end it all happens in places that much stronger when you come out on the other side, whatever that result may be. But so Berkely birthdays is our we call our spitfire. She's always been she's a lot like personality wise. And I tell her sorry a the time like me. So but this same time I think I know it helped her just that.   Jill Harding That sassiness, that determination, that that drive she has even at a young age, so I remember vividly because my husband actually went back to nursing school through everything we've been through with Grandma. And he actually became a nurse roughly three years ago. Just everything that we've been through with our son every time he go to hospital because we were there a lot, as you probably could imagine. My husband is just like, I need to be here. I need to be helping people.   Jill Harding And so my husband, kudos to him getting a nursing degree while having three kids at the time. And now he works at the medical ICU in downtown Indy at University Hospital. Kudos to you as well. To partner.   Jill Harding Oh, yeah. I was the bad guy, so supercooled to see him do that, but with that hope man. So he was working at the hospital. It was crazy because it was Sunday and I was not any Sunday. It was the Indy 500. The biggest tackler in the world was happening on this Sunday in May.   Jill Harding And I, I just tell these details because you got to kind of laugh about it, because if you don't laugh about it, then you cry about it and you don't.   Jill Harding But my son, I was so I was home with three kids by myself, right, and Berkley was five when all this happened and my son comes running into I think I was in the kitchen and he said, Mom, I was like, yes, he's like Berkley just pooped.   Jill Harding I'm like, OK, good for like, did you wash your hands? Right. And he's like, no, you don't understand. I'm like, what are you trying to tell me? Then he goes, There's blood in.   Jill Harding And I think I'm like, no, there's probably not blood in his pocket or something. Right. So I'd let it just go. And I just played it off like that because I was like, you know, Grea does not know that there's blood in there because it would have been the same.   Jill Harding He would have been a, Berkeley's by just being kids. Right. Right.   Jill Harding So I just kind of blew it off and she pooped again. And it's like, Mom, no, I'm not kidding. She's got poop in her blood, our blood in her poop. I'm like, are you sure? So me as a mom, like, OK, I'm going to humor them and go look. And I did. And I was just like, well, Grant, thanks for telling me. And this is the eight a little boy telling me this.   Jill Harding Right. And I was like, thank you, buddy, for telling me. He's like, what does it mean? I'm like, I don't know. So I'm basically trying to get a hold of my husband again. I told you, he is a nurse. So very tough to get a hold of him, especially in a medical ICU.   Jill is finally able to get a hold of David, who is working his shift.  Thankfully, a coworker offers to cover his shift so he can rush to Riley to meet Jill.  Jill’s brother came over to be with Grant.  And they arrive, back at Riley, which is familiar but surreal.   Jill Harding We actually went to the E.R. and they immediately didn't mess around. They did bloodwork, urine samples, stool samples, everything you can imagine to run tests on her little body. And they they couldn't figure out what was going on. So lo and behold, they it was so deja vu. They put us on the seventh floor infectious disease floor again.   Jill Harding And still, we have no idea what's going on other than we know there's blood in her stool   Liesel Mertes And are you finding yourself, like, completely emotionally flooded right now, like, oh, I did like some some people kind of like detach almost from the situation. Some people are right in it. Like what's going on for you as a mom?   Jill Harding As a mom, I was Dave and I were like we were so distraught because we have a good friend who's an E.R. doc. And as a dissertation, she actually did a full report. And like leukemia and how leukemia, is it hereditary? If you have multiple children, siblings, would they get it? And so we're like just went through this and there's no way. So we're thinking maybe it's leukemia again because of what we were experiencing. Right.   Jill Harding Similar types of experiences. So, I mean, we were just like almost so surreal that I was it wasn't really even overwhelming. It was just like. OK, we got this we've been here before, we got this we're going to be OK. What a good place. Let's just keep asking the right questions. David the nurse now so he knows more questions to ask. At the time I was back at Cook Medical, so I was in the medical device realm.   Jill Harding So I knew there's products to help from a device perspective. So we just need more questions to ask in this scenario than what we did before, because we obviously have been through life a little bit different than what we were expecting.   Jill Harding So anyways, fast forward, we talk to the doctors. They finally said we don't know what's going on. Too much test. They kept us another night like they did with grea type thing. And they finally figured out, OK, she's dealing with E. coli.   Jill Harding So E. coli, there is a 50 percent chance at her age and being female that she can get something called at us, which is hemolytic uremic syndrome. And in layman's terms, that basically means her renals can go into renal failure. Renals are what feed your kidneys, basically. It started making sense because her urine output started going down, so she had no urine for at least 24 hours at this point and she was drinking.   Jill Harding So we know she's got the fluids coming in, but the fluids aren't going out. And her stomach was getting real distended where it just stuck out, you know, just looked at her. She's a really petite, small little lady. So we knew something just wasn't right. And then they finally figured out that,   Jill Harding OK, she's got E. coli. The strain of E. coli she has could potentially cause her to have HUS. So they monitor, monitor and unfortunately, unfortunately, see how you will. They put us on the fifth floor again.   Jill Harding So we're like, wait a second. The floor is leukemia. We know that floor all too well. We've lived for so many days and hours and they're like, well, we put you on that floor because that's also our transplant floor and it's also our floor that we do dialysis if we need to do dialysis.   Jill Harding And then at this point, two more challenges, because we have two children back home. We have an older and a younger siblings of Berkeley at home. I mean, I know they're in good care, but still I mean, they're scared because I don't know what's going on. They got a lot of questions. And if my brother does, too, because he wants to be able to give them answers when they become available.   So there's well, and I'm free.   Liesel Mertes But that sense of like the limited resources of yourself as a parent to like you physically can't be in two places at once. Yeah, definitely.   Jill Harding And I know, Grant, I mean, obviously, with what he's been through, his heart is pure gold. And, you know, he's cutting my warrior of the three kids. And so he just wanted to be there with us. And it's hard to understand that we got to be here. We'll be there when we can together. Just give us some time.   Berkley is retaining fluid, getting puffier and puffier so the doctors decide to start hemodialysis.    Jill Harding But hemodialysis is basically where they take out. And it's phenomenally crazy to me. If you just think about what I'm about to tell you, the machine is huge. It's about the size of it, like a refrigerator. Basically, the machines are big and they take 10 percent of your blood out and cycle it, filter it through this machine.   Liesel Mertes Wow.   Jill Harding And so they filter it through the machine. So 10 percent of your blood at any given moment in time is in this machine being filtered and then cycled back into your system. So while the things that we learned along the way, she had to have ended up having six different hemodialysis treatments and it just I mean, it was exhausting for her to go through that and.   Liesel Mertes I just want to ask you about, like I can imagine that scene, you're like these are these are not easy procedures.   Liesel Mertes You know, they're involving needles, they're involving discomfort. They're involving multiple checks by nurses. Was there a sense of, like, overwhelm or powerlessness, like just as you're watching your child go through unnecessary pain?   Jill Harding Well, I will say it probably helps in our scenario, David, one being a nurse and then me having a background in medical devices because we knew that these there's great products that the companies that we worked for offered. And then obviously David knew more what was going on than I did.   Jill Harding So he was able to kind of walk me through it. But there's still something we hit the nail on the head to be said about seeing your own child. Right. It's not to dismiss it if it's someone else lying there or if it's even me right there. But to see your own physical child and someone feeling helpless in regards to pain, I will say with Berkely in particular and Grant to adjust their personalities are really different.   Jill Harding Berkley was pretty much she would tell the nurses what to do and she was not messing around. She even during her painful moments, she has grit. We called her tough as nails because she just has this, I don't know, something embedded in her personality that she's a fighter.   Jill Harding She uses a lot of humor to get her through tough times right now at the nurses, she would ask them for things that she knew she can have, like Skittles. But just to keep them on their toes, they'd be like, wait a sec.   Jill Harding You can't have that.   Liesel Mertes A sense of agency. Yep.   Jill Harding And again, she's a little petite, five year old little girl. She's real small. I think she weighed maybe thirty eight pounds at the most during all this. And so she would be on they would weigh her before and after each treatment. And sometimes she lost five, six pounds and hemodialysis treatment because of the fluid that her body was keeping.   Jill Harding Well but during all this she actually got C. diff too. I'm not sure you're familiar with this, but yeah. See that during it all.   Liesel Mertes As you think about those times in the hospital for those who are listening who have not had to be with a child long term in the hospital. What are some things that you wish people knew about what that reality is like?   Jill Harding Hmmm, that's a really tough question. I think that. It gives you a lot of humility, I mean, regards to humble, because David and I have always been very independent individuals, we don't really ask for help.   Jill Harding We just kind of just make it happen because we're strong willed individuals and we'll just find a way.   Jill Harding But I think I know from our experience personally that it's OK. People want to genuinely help others. I mean, that's just human nature. And I think once we put our pride aside and our guard down, it helped us as parents to really do what we needed to do.   Jill Harding And it took away from the challenges of us not being 100 percent present for at the time, Grant. And then that time later, Berkeley.   Jill Harding So I think with those scenarios and in and of itself, it's just. Be compassionate. Ask for help, but if someone doesn't immediately want your help, it's OK because they've got to do it in their own way, right. Because everything is unique to that family, that circumstance, that situation.   Liesel Mertes Yeah, I talked in my trainings that it's not about you as the person who is offering help, like almost never. Is it about, like, judgment on your relationship.   Liesel Mertes It's just even stuff like is messy and so often help. And if the person says, yes, be willing to follow through and if they say no, they don't take it personally yet.   Jill Harding And exactly, because I think what we're going through right now in our world. Right. I mean, like in our situation, we never been through that. And many of our friends have never been to that. Right. So you just got to go with what your instincts. And we rely heavily on our faith because we are people of faith. But at the same token, you know, we never been through that. So, you know, maybe grace to those folks and like you said, get to meet them where they're at because at the same time, we didn't know what we needed or didn't need.   Right.   Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's another thing I say that that the let me know how I can help. Question isn't as helpful as you would think.   Liesel Mertes It would be like finding clean underwear.   Liesel Mertes But I don't know what were some of the best ways that people helped your family?   Jill Harding I think it's just the, um. Just to know that we had the support, right, just a phone call, just even if it's just listen to me cry or David cry or just listen to us in silence, if you will. I think just knowing we had people behind the scenes, I also know that I have since he's passed on. So it hurts my heart to even say this.   Jill Harding But my best buddy and Andrea, we've been best buddies since third grade. Her father wanted to help so bad he's retired. So he had the abilities and means to help them. At the same token, like he would bring us groceries, like unexpectedly. And he kept on like what we liked at Kroger and he would just randomly draw stuff off because he knew he'd done it before. So he kept he was so sweet. He kept a list of our favorite bars or snacks or what have you.   Jill Harding And we just make sure he kept us knocked up that and it's just simple because it wasn't anything like, you know, they put him out too much. It was just kind. Bars are David's favorite potato chips, what have you. Just simple things. But it's still so just like what people are thinking about us.   Jill Harding So just randomly dropping those off our   Liesel Mertes And what beautiful intention also, like, you take time and ask what you liked. And then he wanted to remember it and he didn't have to. It sounds like hassle. You do this, you just realize like these are staples they're always going to enjoy receiving. I'm just going to bring them. I love that.   Jill Harding I was really cool. And and I think that.   Jill Harding Just the the window time we call it window time, where I would actually sit on his window and look out and play with folks, I think just being mindful, even though people have to be guarded in those scenarios that we were in and have to be more inside in their own space and not exposed to other germs outside of their home, just putting that like being creative, I think how we communicated and still played, but yet did it through a different means.   Liesel Mertes Well, I'm thinking about I mean, there's support of you, right, as the parent. There's also the support of your child who has had their world turned upside down. And I imagine it felt meaningful to receive support.   Jill Harding Well and the cool thing about the window, time was allowed to play, like with his his papi. We call David's dad Papi, with his papi outside the window while Grant was inside the window, but allowed David to kick our feet up for a minute and let that Grant was entertained and happy. And we did that for a little while, too, when she came home because she was still her ability to fight off. Infection was still pretty low at some point, too.   Jill Harding So we did the same thing with her as well. But I think just showing folks that you're you've got that support system, whether you tap into it. Again, like you said, you get to meet those individuals where they're at and let them. Like you said, I don't know what I need right now, I just need right. I just need like I don't have one iota of extra creative energy right now.   Liesel Mertes OK, so on the other side, was there anything you don't have to name names, but was there anything that you were on the receiving end of that you would say this is this is just not helpful? Don't do these things.   Jill Harding I think so, yes. The constant like. What's around I'm looking for the constant sharing of, like, knickknack little things like that, either we can only have so much in the hospital and I say this because people just don't know, like birthday was on the transplant floor.   Jill Harding So she couldn't have anything in life. So people would try to send her flowers. Well, she never got to enjoy those because she wasn't able to have those in her room because the thing was soil on it, for instance, anything like breathing, she can I could plants. You can actually have those in her room. So. Yeah, and people didn't know that.   Jill Harding But I think I almost wonder if sometimes that that's the staff at the hospital too.   Jill Harding But I think it's just maybe doing a little bit of homework before you do that kind gesture, because I hated that for the individuals that sent her stuff like that because. You know, that they spent now. Now, great, we said make sure it gets to a nurse's station or it gets to someplace where someone can enjoy it but still going to enjoy it.   Jill Harding And then she saw it from the window and she's like, oh, good. Then we had to talk her off a cliff for a little bit because she thought that she could have was in her room. Right. And I think just if someone says, I don't know what I need right now, don't cry, because they will come and you'll know, but don't force it. Let it be.   Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's a great point.   Liesel Mertes Jill, is there anything that you would like to add that I didn't ask you in our time together?   Jill Harding Um, yeah, I think so.   Jill Harding I think just when we go throughout our days, just know regardless big or small or whatever it is, we all have a story and we just got to be mindful we're all human. Right. And there's no like rulebook on how to be the best human ever. Technically speaking. Right.   Jill Harding So just have compassion for other people and just be realistic in that everyone's got a story. Everyone's weathering something, whether it's big or small, and just realize that, you know, words do hurt more than people realize.   Jill Harding And I think also, too, like back to my kiddos specifically both Grant and Berkeley, they've been Tindley because she's been through all this with us as well. With regards to Berkeley, just let those moments happen. Do the best you can to weather through those moments that make sure you come out on the other end as strong as you can by what you've learned through that moment. And what I mean by that is like   Jill Harding Grant and Berkeley both, like I think that they have learned some things and their characters have been shaped in ways that I feel like would have been really tough for David and I to have instilled in them if they didn't go through the experiences they went through.   Jill Harding Right now, both of them have scars from their great how to put a catheter in Berkeley, had some catheters in her jugular area. So they both have scars. And I tell them all the time and they tell me now to because I've told them so many times. But those are like, that's part of you and that's OK. That's what makes you grant unique. That's what makes you unique. Like everybody else as well. We all have something that's unique to us, kind of like a snowflake in that regard dry.   Jill Harding We're all unique in our own way and don't be ashamed of that. In fact, be proud of that, because those scars have shown that you're still here with us today.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Jill… There are many restrictions for an individual living with cancer.Hearing all of the challenges with just eating (the concerns about leftovers, the need to clean food etc) gave me a deeper appreciation of how tenuous life and infection can be.  With that in mind, learning a little more before giving gifts (like flowers) is important. Consider what creative engagement with a child who is immuno-compromised (or battling COVID) looks like.I loved the story of play dates through a window with walkie talkies (plus there was the added benefit of giving parents a chance to rest). Remember that “Tell me how I can help” oftentimes is an unhelpful question to people who are already living through something hard.Many times, people don’t know in the moment what they need and they might feel tentative following up with a request afterwards.  Instead, know what you can offer (perhaps a grocery drop-off, a Door Dash certificate, or doing some yard work) and extend a specific offer of help.   OUTRO

- Mike Thibideau But it's been. A really meaningful way to to change a lot of things about myself that were the underlying cause of like kind of what I went back to before, like I didn't I I didn't know why people would like to be sober and the reality is, is because they don't hate themselves. If you don't if you don't hate who you are, then just existing in your own skin isn't a miserable state of existence and finally learning to come to peace with those things. Is what really navigating recovery has been all about.   INTRO   Today, we are talking about addiction:  its roots, the challenge of staying sober, and how workplaces can support their people as they struggle to manage their addictions.  My guest in Mike Thibideau, he is the Director of Indiana Workforce Recovery.    Indiana Workforce Recovery is a partnership of the Indiana Wellness Council and the Indiana Chamber and I will let Mike tell you a little bit more about it in his own words   - Mike Thibideau Indiana Workforce Recovery is a program of the Wellness Council, operated in partnership with the chamber and the administration of Governor Holcomb here in Indiana that really works to mitigate the impact of addiction on employer environments by equipping them to support recovery.   - Mike Thibideau And I think that that's an important distinction. There are not a lot of initiatives. Well, there are a lot more now than when I started. Not a lot of initiatives out there really focused on recovery in the workplace.   But Mike doesn’t just work in Recovery.  He is also a man in recovery himself.  He has been sober for five years.  Yet, you know that I want my guests to be more than just their story of hardship, so let me introduce you a little more fully to Mike.    Mike is the father of a little girl, Hazel, and he and his wife have another little one on the way.    - Mike Thibideau And we're we're just really excited to have her kind of join our team, as it were. It's all healthy. All good. I don't know. Unfortunately, I don't know too much about her yet. That's kind of, I think, a good thing at this point. But we're yeah, we're just really excited to have that addition to the family.   Mike has lived in Indy for the last eight years, he considers himself a Hoosier and roots for the Colts but he was born in metro Detroit.  He and his wife met through a mutual friend, post-college.    - Liesel Mertes But this story, you know, did you know, like right off the bat that you guys would be a good fit? Was it a chemistry from the start or did you have to both come to that realization, kind of like in your own time manner?   - Mike Thibideau We definitely had some chemistry kind of to kick things off. And we actually started hanging out the year that in the last time Indianapolis was hosting the Final Four and we were watching. Those those basketball games, and coincidentally enough, that first month together was the time that Michigan State and Duke faced off in that Final Four game.   - Liesel Mertes Wow, you're going to have to confront that one early.   - Mike Thibideau But but we definitely knew there was some. Some chemistry early on, and I think that that actually fully manifested itself when she became aware of of the struggles I was having in life and still kind of stuck it out because she hasn't only been around for the. The good parts of the last few years, she she saw. When we got together, slowly but surely, she got to the veil, became lifted and she got to see some of me at my worst.   - Mike Thibideau So I think that that chemistry kind of spoke to. Her ability to be resilient in those times and. Support an individual who clearly was in need of some help.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you know, that's a that's a very appropriate segue into, you know, some of what we want to discuss in today's podcast. You talk about yourself.   - Liesel Mertes You know, when you sent me your bio as a person in long term recovery, you unpack that a little bit for me. What does that mean to you? And then I'd love to go deeper into some of your story.   - Mike Thibideau Yeah, sure.   - Mike Thibideau So, yeah, I, I, I now publicly before privately identify myself as a person in long term recovery from substance use disorder. And that means that I have not used a drink or mind altering drug aside from those prescribed by a doctor as prescribed in what for me is now over five years. And so I also I think within that is the dedication to living my life in a certain way that betters the world around me and consistently endeavours to be better.   - Mike Thibideau I wouldn't say I am better, but I you know, we all we all fail. But I think the difference is as a person in recovery for me, I can identify those moments of failure or recognize them as such. Name them and use them to grow and try to be better.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I feel like in the public eye and consciousness, there's almost like these two polarities in which we see substance abuse and addiction. It's either like we see representations of the addict, you know, someone who is just their whole life has been wrecked by, you know, their relationship with this substance or, you know, someone who's doing well in recovery. And it's a triumphant story.   - Liesel Mertes And I'm struck that, you know, for for many people, it's much more of a spectrum of their relationship with, you know, whatever substance that is beginning to take up more and more space in their life and in their consciousness. I imagine that there are elements of that within your own story.   - Liesel Mertes You know, you don't just start drinking like, you know, tons of hard liquor as a 15 year old, as you chart, you know, kind of your progression.   - Liesel Mertes What is your origin story of your relationship with substances that would later become really damaging in your life?   - Mike Thibideau Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So for me, it all goes back to really grade school, even where I experienced a lot of trauma related to bullying and insecurity. I I was a very I was a very small kid until about eighth grade when suddenly I grew like a foot or more in a short very short period.   - Mike Thibideau But I remember distinctly, you know, being in sixth grade and getting picked on by fourth grade girls who were also bigger than me, you know, kids calling me Simon Birch and which in hindsight as adults, should have been a compliment because that dude ended up being a hero in that movie.   - Mike Thibideau But but as a as a kid, you know, hurt and a lot of just kind of traumatic bullying experiences as a younger individual. The that kind of led to me having a self narrative of I'm not cool, I'm not good enough.   - Mike Thibideau And I think that was also reinforced to an extent academically as well by my ADHD and the presence of that in my life. I never got bad grades, but I had to do a decent amount of work to get decent grades and really, what I found was when I started doing drugs and using using drugs and alcohol, it felt like a hole had been filled and suddenly I felt accepted by others like I wasn't some square kid who followed all the rules and did everything right.   - Mike Thibideau I was able to be a little bit more than that. And it's really funny because, you know, in hindsight and as an adult, I'm the kind of guy who, like, loves clear expectations and rules. And I think that that same thing was true for me as an adolescent.   - Mike Thibideau But it wasn't cool to be a kid who followed all the rules and did and did those things right that that you think is expected of you. And so there was kind of that like that always that pull on me as somebody who, like I think really in the end wanted to follow the rules and be a good kid, but also saw felt that that identity was one of social isolation and outcast.   - Mike Thibideau And so really, I mean, at in high school, my identity was a lot of things. But one of that and among at least certain social circles was a kid who, you know, smoked a lot of pot and and would drink. And I don't know how much others perceived that as being my identity, but it definitely, for me, was a key part of my identity. And I think that that's. What a lot of people who struggle with addiction have in their lives is the.   - Mike Thibideau The inability to accurately assess how others view us and have a really false internal narrative of our own identity. And at a point that became what it meant to feel normal.   - Mike Thibideau I remember as early as college saying to friends, why are people sober? Like, why would you ever just choose to be sober? Like, who likes that? And that's not a normal thing, apparently, for people to think about life. So it took.   - Mike Thibideau College was a very tumultuous time where I would kind of my horse, my old tale of the least adult addiction is one of being able to successfully navigate crises. And in doing so, enable my own continued use,   - Liesel Mertes Tell me tell me a little bit more about that like crises that are brought about by, like forgetting important tests or dropping the ball or what did that look like for you?   - Mike Thibideau Well, for me, like a whole semester at a time in college back then, I would I'd get like a one point six and then I'd have to buckle down. In the next semester, I'd get a 4.0. I even had at one point, I think my junior year, I had a 4.0 and a three point nine five, and then the following year I followed that up with like a two point one and a and like a two point three.   - Mike Thibideau And none of it related to, like, how hard my classes were or anything like that. I just couldn't. My disease psychologist would kind of become more active and less active based on systems and supports that I would put in my life, which at least at that time were able to temporarily help me navigate things.   - Liesel Mertes Could you unpack that for me? Because I'm struck that that's an evocative term that listeners might not understand. Tell me a little bit about your particular disease cycle and how it was affected by the presence or absence of the supports that you're talking about.   - Mike Thibideau So for me, a lot of what it looked like was just habits and ritual that I used specifically with the conscious thought of managing my drinking. And by managing my drinking, I mean, not drinking less, but managing the impact that drinking was having on my life.   - Mike Thibideau when I would be at school and I would be drinking really hard, but it's still doing well at school, what I would basically do is I would get a paper assigned to me and like I would write it that day. Knowing that if I do this work now, I can party harder later.   - Mike Thibideau I would do all my studying for tests well in advance and I would do everything I could to kind of build in a. Immediate sense of accomplishment that I would then follow up with. You know, reckless behavior, frankly, and what would really happen is that that would only be sustainable for a certain amount of time before the the rails would come off and I'd spend a whole semester.   - Mike Thibideau Hardly doing anything or at least doing the bare minimum. And once you get in kind of both of those cycles, I think that that's a thing that is often the case with both individuals. I know and it was especially the case for myself, is that at a certain point you become like the boulder from Raiders of the Lost Ark, where you're just like you're just going down a path and it's going to end somewhere. And that's going to be really the time when you can make a choice and arrest the behavior, at least temporarily and survive or not.   - Mike Thibideau For some people, that ends in death. And fortunately, it didn't. And there were just kind of a lot of those periods in my life where I was just rolling down that hill and.   - Mike Thibideau There would have to be something there that would stop me, and it really was never a person or, you know, it wasn't a place where somebody could just say, like, you know, we love you, right? And then be like, oh, OK, cool.   - Mike Thibideau Like, I'll just stop drinking. It would have to be running out of money, becoming homeless. Changing jobs, moving to a new city.   - Liesel Mertes So during this time, you know, you talk about it wasn't enough just for someone to have, like, the verbal affirmation, we love you, we want you to stop.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck. Did you have people in your life that were seeing this decline and were trying to intervene? And a follow up to that, if it.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. Is were they doing like what were some good things they were doing? Did it even matter? What were some things that were terrible? I'd love to hear more about what people were trying to do to come alongside you.   - Mike Thibideau So as a disclaimer, my use during that time and really through most of my really hard addiction for about 18 through twenty five, I can't really remember very much. I was drinking somewhere between a fifth and a half gallon of hard liquor a day for most of that, and that along with doing drugs. And so to an extent that just really damages your ability to remember things. So I really can't tell you on my own perspective a story of somebody.   - Mike Thibideau Yeah. Trying to do something. I do know I heard years later that some of my fraternity brothers at some point did come out to me and say, like, hey, like, don't you think you're you're kind of drinking a little hard and. I thought that was one that was during, unfortunately, kind of for them, I think a little bit for me that was during one of the good times. And I just pulled up my transcripts and showed them all that I had a 4.0.   - Mike Thibideau And they were like, all right. You know, like it's look, it's Goutman. You know, like if you're if what you're doing isn't causing problems, then it's probably not a problem, you know, like live your life. And I think there were.   - Mike Thibideau My family, actually, I will say I was the one who kind of initiated that conversation as an adult during high school and things like that, they would have we would have conversations and consequences about my use.   - Mike Thibideau But as an adult, I remember about two years or three years before I got sober, even I told my I told my parents that I was an alcoholic and that I was going to eventually need to just stop drinking. And fortunately for me, that's what led to them eventually having an intervention for me years later, but. There were a lot of people like both them, I think, to an extent, and then also, you know, my then girlfriend, now wife, where I would tell them things like that and they'd be like, no, you're not like me.   - Mike Thibideau You know, that's and they wouldn't say that as much as they would vocalize to me later on in life that they were thinking it. And a lot of that was because I still had a job until the end, had a car and, you know, while I wasn't, I would say navigating life, well, I wasn't the stereotype of. What an addict or an alcoholic is, and so. And we just didn't know we as a family didn't have very much of it in our genetics and weren't exposed to it in that way.   - Mike Thibideau So it's a long way of saying that.   - Mike Thibideau I really don't have a whole lot of examples in my life of people who said, like, let's try to get you help or because. Because in general. I was able to hold it together enough that. The signs weren't there unless I let them be seen or unless you caught me in a specific moment.   - Mike Thibideau I also, you know, I moved I moved here eight years ago, so and I and before I lived in Indianapolis, I spent over two years living in, I think it was seven different cities around the country.   - Mike Thibideau So I wasn't really around family in a way that they saw much of my life.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. I'd like to just ask a question about something that you mentioned. You talked about. I don't fit the stereotype of how we picture an addict, especially in the work that you do. You know, you. You go deep into probably as you build awareness, as you help recovering addicts, tell me what that stereotype looks like and how it can be damaging and how it steers us wrong. Yeah, in realizing the scope of how many people actually struggle with addiction issues.   - Mike Thibideau So I think definitely one part of it is I'm a straight white man that definitely doesn't hurt me as far as perception, obviously bias is real, but I also, you know, dressed fairly well and am a fairly eloquent individual and have been for really as long as I can really remember, that's only increased.   - Mike Thibideau So I was always a person who was able to clearly and clearly and concisely put together my thoughts and express myself in a very effective manner and even professionally, I.   - Mike Thibideau I think the best way to say it was I was always somebody who excelled until I was almost failing, meaning that I would be able to get a job or do something new in life and be very successful at it. Until my addiction would catch up with me, the routines would fall apart, the wheels would come off the wagon, and suddenly I was barely meeting expectations.   - Mike Thibideau And that's something I tell employers to look for all the time, is really that change in behavior, because I know that my boss, who I was working on, the the organization I was working for when I got into recovery and when I went through treatment, he told me he thought that I just didn't care anymore. He didn't. He knew something was going on.   - Mike Thibideau But he thought really it was just that I didn't give a crap and. That couldn't get any further from the truth, I love that job, but but at the same time, I was I was in crisis and my life was kind of starting to fall apart around me.   MUSICAL TRANSITION - Mike Thibideau When I actually realized that I had a problem, I was in a training for something called the Alcohol Skills Training Program back when I worked for my fraternity. And it's a workshop to teach young people how to responsibly navigate. Drinking and social behaviors. And they went through a little mini assessment of like how to talk to somebody about potentially having a problem with drugs or alcohol. And they were like, oh, yeah, if you like, checked like five of these 30 boxes, you might have a problem.   - Mike Thibideau And I checked like twenty nine of the 30. And it was just like, oh, OK. So this, this might be real. I kind of put it off for a little while after that.   - Mike Thibideau But but then really what I think started to make it strike home was when my memory loss started to interfere with my ability to remember things that I was doing sober. So I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to remember whether like so I wouldn't at that time I wasn't you know, I wasn't using or intoxicated at work or anything like that.   - Mike Thibideau But I was having trouble remembering things that I'd done the last day, even if I had been sober while doing them. And that was really having ramifications on my life where, like, I wouldn't be able to remember people that I met. I wouldn't be able to remember tasks that I had accomplished cause that I'd had or things that I checked in with my boss on. And so. Kind of that led to me realizing that, like something is happening here.   - Mike Thibideau That I have to be concerned about before I go insane. And that was very striking at the time.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and where where did you go from that realization?   - Mike Thibideau Well, I went right back to drinking, but that was that was a problem for Mike to deal with when the the ball finally hit the end.   Mike was drinking more and more.  He began in the morning and was even getting behind the wheel.  So his family staged an intervention.    - Liesel Mertes When when you say that, you know, they had an intervention, they directed me to services, you know, that's it's not like a quick flyover, but I imagine that there's like a pretty emotional scene, potentially, like, do you remember feeling angry? Were you ready to go when they told you you needed to go? Like, unpack that a little bit for me?   - Mike Thibideau I would say scared and excited was how I felt. I didn't realize how ready for it I was until the moment it was put in front of me. The moment they and I will say I'm like, I'm so I've I have done a number of these and been part of. Helping people get into treatment, and it does not often go as smooth as my we all kind of I guess luck got lucky, I don't know what it was. We were blessed by the fact that at that moment I was I was ready for it and able to engage.   - Mike Thibideau And it wasn't a hesitation or anything. It was just, yes, let's go.   - Mike Thibideau And we went. And it was it was a jarring experience. You know, going through detox and and then I did for forty five days of residential treatment and a couple of months of outpatient, and I've really especially that early period in detox and early residential was a very emotional time in my life. And one that. Was among the more difficult things I've been through.   - Mike Thibideau So. When people are struggling with addiction and in my own experience, when I was struggling with addiction, like I was pretty severe, you know, use. I was not a mentally like, well, person, so. Especially when you took away my crutch. It was a very emotional time, and part of that is the emotion centers in my brain that have been numbed for years were just starting to kind of open back up.   - Mike Thibideau And my brain was even early on starting the process of healing. There was a lot of crying and a lot of. Just trying to figure out what to do, and I remember even early on, one of my biggest barriers was, you know, people would be telling me about 12 step recovery, Alcoholics Anonymous or other such programs. And everybody was talking about God all the time. And I was a hardcore atheist at that point, you know.   - Mike Thibideau And that was a big barrier for me, was that people kept talking in that way. Fortunately, I got through my counselors and professional help is exposed to some parts of of that 12 step program, but then also just other cognitive behavioral therapy and supports that didn't rely on that narrative quite so much and really talked about how to build that into your own narrative and allowed me to successfully navigate that system.   - Mike Thibideau But I think one of the things that's really hard to do is, you know, when we when we put people into detox, you know, I I had pretty severe alcohol use disorder and I had done and I was doing some drugs here and there, but I had never even met anyone who had done meth or heroin prior to engaging in treatment.   - Mike Thibideau And suddenly I'm surrounded by individuals who have been using meth and heroin. And, you know, we can while ah, what's going on in our brains is very similar culturally, that's a very different type of individual than I had previously been engaged with. And so I kind of had to learn to. Have this new peer group, almost of people who have had very different life experiences than I did for the most part, and it was definitely like a culture shock going in there and seeing that and being around that for the first time.   - Mike Thibideau But I luckily I got really plugged in to some really great supports and. Found some good examples in my life of people who were doing the right things and followed that example for myself. That's 12 step recovery.   - Mike Thibideau But it's been. A really meaningful way to to change a lot of things about myself that were the underlying cause of like kind of what I went back to before, like I didn't I I didn't know why people would like to be sober and the reality is, is because they don't hate themselves. If you don't if you don't hate who you are, then just existing in your own skin isn't a miserable state of existence and finally learning to come to peace with those things. Is what really navigating recovery has been all about.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm, what did you and what do you continue to discover that you really like about the shober version of yourself?   - Mike Thibideau So. I like remembering things that's that's pretty cool, being able to know what you did yesterday. It might sound like a strange thing to take for granted, but to not take for granted.   - Mike Thibideau But I really don't. I would also say my ability to be present for those around me is a constant blessing and the relationships I have in my life are so deep and have so much meaning, and the vulnerability I'm able to possess on a constant basis is a is a huge, huge blessing.   - Mike Thibideau I know professionally, even one of the things that's been so great about being a person in long term recovery and really learning to navigate this life, I will say I fall short of this ideal all the time myself. But when you really work.   - Mike Thibideau When you really work on yourself and you learn to embrace serenity in your life, meaning knowing what you can control and what you can't, a lot of the most common workplace struggles kind of go out the door.   - Mike Thibideau If you live your life professionally, not obsessing about other people's actions, behaviors and thoughts, it frees up a lot of space to really do some pretty amazing things yourself.   - Mike Thibideau And it's something I didn't realize until I had been in recovery for a number of years and really. Practicing those principles is how much of people's workplace stress comes from what they can't control about others behaviors. And so that's been a beautiful thing for me, is just being able to be a little bit more in the moment, but then also just present to.   - Mike Thibideau Plan and and do the good work, I fall short of that all the time and still have problems, but I'm at least able to name them and process through it and and move on rather than obsess.   - Liesel Mertes What kinds of supports did you find that you needed in that immediate year or even in an ongoing way, like just the. For someone who has not gone through the process of moving towards sobriety?   - Liesel Mertes Give me give me more of like a perspective and what that journey has looked like for you post interventional treatment.   - Mike Thibideau So. I think that a lot of it for me has come down to really just leaning on my networks and my supports, so when I when I started off, I, I kind of just you have to accept I do accept that there was no such thing in early recovery as balance.   - Mike Thibideau You're not going to, like, spend an equal amount of time with your family and your work and your recovery and all these things. Kind of like recovery has to come first because it's the if without it, none of this other stuff is going to continue to exist.   - Mike Thibideau And I, I know my my workplace was really great about making sure that I was participating in treatment at the recommended amount by my medical professionals and really encouraging me to do that. They paid for me my salary through part of my medical leave to help with the bills. They helped me with reduced hours and slowing down my travel when I was engaged in outpatient programming and kind of took that stress away from me in the interim.   - Mike Thibideau But I leaned I leaned hard on my supports, I went to 12 step meetings pretty much every day for. Six, eight months, something like that, and and that meant I wasn't home to be with my girlfriend and invest time in that relationship quite as much.   - Mike Thibideau There were times at work where I would be really struggling and I would just kind of over lunch, go to a meeting and and take some time for myself. And I really worked hard to just stay engaged in systems and do the work.   - Mike Thibideau A big thing for me was recognizing. I'll be frank, I've been very blessed in that I haven't had very many times in recovery where I have had serious thoughts of drinking, I was ready for this change and I was doing the work. There have been limited times where that was not where that was present in my life. But I've been able to kind of.   - Mike Thibideau Get that in check real quick and a big reason for that is I've worked really hard on myself to recognize the symptoms of behavioral change that are getting me back to an emotional state where I would think about drinking.   - Mike Thibideau So me in my current state, as I'm sitting here today, is not going to have a thought today about alcohol, at least not in an unhealthy manner. I might literally think about alcohol as a concept or something like that because of my job, but the thought of drinking is not something that I'm worried about is a danger today.   - Mike Thibideau But my manipulation, my control issues, my insecurities, all of these things that are part of the me that would have that thought might come back into my life today in some form or fashion. And so my ability to recognize those in that moment and arrest that thought as unhealthy and process it is what leads me to be in a place where I don't have those thoughts and behaviors on a regular basis.   - Mike Thibideau The most helpful thing for me also, I will say, if anybody wants to figure out how to if you're working a 12 step program and you want to figure out how to translate that to work, I recommend to everybody that you read the Carnegie book, How to Win Friends and Influence People.   - Mike Thibideau I remember being in addiction and reading it and thinking this book isn't teaching me how to control anybody and make them my friend and not liking it, but in recovery, man, there are some principles in that book that have been jewels for me in navigating the workplace, most notably the futility of criticism, something I have to remind myself of all the time.   - Mike Thibideau But that that principle is a. Is a wonderful thing for learning how to think a little bit less about what you deserve and a little bit more about what to be grateful for.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. Thank you for that recommendation. I found myself mentally cataloging and being like, I know I have a copy of that somewhere. Where is it? So that's a good resource.   - Liesel Mertes You have this depth of personal experience, which I'm sure you know, feeds daily into what you get to do professionally, which is thinking a lot about how you structurally equip workplaces to look at, you know, addiction issues that their people are going through.   - Liesel Mertes Individual stories are powerful, also, like high level data has its own impact, what is some of the scope of the challenge that is facing just at the statewide level, like if someone's thinking like her addiction and recovery in the workplace, I don't know, is that a problem here in Indiana?   - Liesel Mertes What are some data points that help illuminate that?   - Mike Thibideau The most important data set behind what we do. Is that employers being equipped to help individuals in the workplace can directly save lives, people who are referred to care via their employer have the highest levels of outcomes at one year and five year recovery measures.   - Mike Thibideau They have the strongest length of engagement with the treatment system, which is across multiple papers and studies shown as the primary indicator of success. And they have the most pressure to enter treatment, despite being the group that has the lowest self perceived need for care.   - Mike Thibideau And so what that means, as many people who are referred to treatment or to some type of education by their employer would not have gone if referred by friends, family or a doctor. And yet, despite that, they have the highest levels of outcomes.   - Mike Thibideau And a big part of that is what we know of as recovery capital. Social, which is social capital, is a very common concept. But when people get care while employed, they're more likely to have adequate insurance. They're more likely to have housing, transportation, healthier social networks and community supports that an unemployed individual just generally does not because employment is a key social determinants of health. So we know that by us equipping employers to intervene and assist, we can help individuals get help earlier in their disease cycle and in doing so, directly save lives and that.   - Liesel Mertes And what does well-equipped place of employment, what does that look like? How are individuals equipped like that, the management or high level? What what does what you're looking to build look like?   - Mike Thibideau So the most basic foundation is a sound second chance system, and that means that when an individual fails their first drug screen, they're not terminated. And that's at its most basic at its most basic level. That being with that being the defining characteristic, we've actually helped lower that number of employers in Indiana by twenty five percent in two years, which is remarkable that we've seen so swift behavioral change that a lowering of twenty five percent of the number of employers that terminate after a first failed drug test, correct?   - Mike Thibideau Yep. And then kind of on top of that very basic foundation, what we look for is the ability to support, refer individuals to appropriate treatment or care and have a basic system that allows you to retain them or at least the framework for attention. Relapse management is a key component of that. And what that really looks like from a best practice policy is that you're set up to where any time that an employee asks you for help, they are directly referred to care.   - Mike Thibideau Whether that's that could be their second time asking for help, their third time asking about their fourth time asking for help.   - Mike Thibideau You send them to help. But if they fail a second drug test, they're gone. And there's and there's no ifs, ands or buts kind of around that. Or if they if they have a workplace incident that you take appropriate disciplinary action based on that incident or behavior.   - Mike Thibideau But really leave the door open for and actively encourage individuals to still come forward and ask for help. So it's kind of one of those one of those mechanisms where the first time that you need help, whether it's through a request or a drug test or an incident, whatever it may be, certain certain types of things notwithstanding, if you're in your view, the employees still need to be held accountable for their behaviors and your environment.   - Mike Thibideau If somebody is violent in the workplace, it doesn't really matter whether they're intoxicated or not. They have to be held accountable for their violent behavior. But if they are an employee in good standing and they and they fail a drug screen or have an accident or something like that, you help them get well and get directed towards recovery. And then as things go on, you help mitigate the severity of relapse by encouraging by building systems that encourage them to come forward and ask for help any time that they need assistance.   - Liesel Mertes Right. I love what you do and what you're building, it's it's obviously there's a lot of alignment with empathy in the workplace and coming alongside people.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to my conversation with Mike in just a moment.  First, I want to thank our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  With all of the stress and chaos of the year, promoting mental health and building cultures of care has never been more important.  Let Handle with Care help.  With keynotes, certificiate sessions, and executive coaching, we have offerings to fit your needs.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Mike Thibideau I mean, so before I did this role, I was the executive director of a construction association doing workforce development work on behalf of the state's construction industry. I had no professional background in addiction at all. I was I was doing workforce development work, largely an employer education. So. Even in that work, I would constantly see employers who would have 50 percent retention in three months, and those are the exact same kinds of employers that have engaged with us to try to increase those metrics and increase the amount of support that they're providing to get more people involved, because it costs employers a lot of money to train new talent.   - Mike Thibideau And for them to lose that talent so swiftly is is expensive. And so let alone the impact that it has on culture and people. But so far, so good, I guess. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm glad to hear it. And I think that it's true what you said, that the people who are coming are people who realize.   - Liesel Mertes At least the beginning scope of the problem and are wanting to make those changes, we we talk on, you know, each episode of the Handle with Care podcast about like some really practical these are some these are some important things to do if you know someone who is going through something like this. And here are some things not to do as you think about.   - Liesel Mertes Let's start with the, you know, avoid these behaviors sort of thing,   - Liesel Mertes whether it's within your own story or just as you've worked with people who are in recovery, what are some of the least helpful things that whether it's a workplace community or a family or social context can do that, you know, inhibit someone's journey towards becoming healthier?   - Mike Thibideau So I think. My parameters that I try to set with people is. To both have the attitude of never give up while also setting clear boundaries, No. Individuals who are struggling with this are not mentally well, they're not easy to be around, they're not going to be largely cooperative with what you want them to do or make the immediate changes on first act that you think they should. And that's because they are sick. This is a disease, these are sick people, but they also, in many cases don't have a lot of trust in their lives and they're very suspicious and they believe that everybody's out to get them and that nothing is going to go well.   - Mike Thibideau So when you think about how to provide support. The best way is to just be there and be ready to help them do the right thing at any time.   - Mike Thibideau There's a lot of nuance involved in that and the the conversation of whether you're enabling or assisting or is a very complicated one that we could probably spend a whole podcast on. But I think that never losing the compassion is an important part of staying engaged and involved. And aside from that. It's also important to make sure that, you know. Especially as a workplace, at what point and having having it be clearly defined and not amorphous, when is enough enough?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, there's clear boundaries that are there. You touched on this, but just to give you a chance to say it more fully.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the the best things that people, whether as your wife or that you first employer or just best practices of people you work with, what comes to mind when you think these are some of the best things you can do to support someone who is dealing with severe steps?   - Liesel Mertes Well, not even severe with substance abuse issues, so.   - Mike Thibideau My wife, to her great credit, gives me the ability to self identify a need for self care in my life and to take care of those needs, whether it's you going out and playing golf with buddies in recovery, taking time to go to a 12 step meeting, working with as a working as a volunteer to stay engaged in the community. And that meeting that she has to stay home with our daughter or whatever it may be. She's very good about recognizing that.   - Mike Thibideau That's an important part of me being able to take care of myself so I can then be present for others. And I think that within the workplace, that can look very different.   - Mike Thibideau So this current job is the only one I've ever had outside of the one where I got treatment at where I've ever been public about the fact that I like. And in recovery and struggled with addiction in my past roles, I would just tell people things like I don't drink, it cause problems for me in the past and that would be enough.   - Mike Thibideau Nobody ever cared. Nobody ever really questioned it. I would be at networking events that had alcohol, most of which I put together.   - Mike Thibideau And I never really had a problem with that because God knows those things were terrible for me when I was actually drinking.   - Liesel Mertes There are a lot easier when you're not to be drunk and remember the person that you made that great contact with.   - Mike Thibideau Oh, my gosh. Talk about gratitude. That was like one of the weirdest things I know. And it's I should not be too flippant about this. I know a lot of people really struggle with being around alcohol in those professional settings. But I know for me that was a source of gratitude because, boy, I, I was miserable at those when I was actually drinking because I never could drink how I wanted to.   - Mike Thibideau And all I could think about was how soon I could leave to get to go somewhere and really Taiwan or do it. How I really wanted to. But yeah, now those are huge moments of gratitude, but so the other thing is, just so I like to think of.   - Mike Thibideau All of my employers have always been very good about giving me the ability to be vulnerable, about the need for self care, and that's, I will say, even outside of the environment of like reasonable accommodation and disclosure of an actual, like, disability, like, I've never I don't think needed to say, like, you know, I'm starting my recovery.   - Mike Thibideau I need to go do X, Y or Z. I've just said things like, you know, like, hey, I'm having a really tough day and I need to go take some time for myself over like a longer lunch. And people are like, yeah, go. Do you I think that that's how people should treat everybody. If you're if you allow your employees to be vulnerable, you allow them to take care of themselves and stay at their best.   - Mike Thibideau And while the old school mentality may be that people would quote unquote, take advantage of that, for the most part, people have so much gratitude for it that they end up working harder and doing better work.   - Mike Thibideau And I think on the whole, that that's like a really key thing to do is just to believe in people, be vulnerable about your struggles and put in an appropriate manner.   - Mike Thibideau I I am very vocal about the fact that I do not believe that everybody needs to be open about their recovery and their addiction story within their workplace. For me here, it makes sense and it's something that is very powerful for me to insert into my professional role because my professional role deals with addiction.   - Mike Thibideau But. Your employer does not need to know that in the same way that your employer doesn't need to know if you have diabetes, if you have depression, if you have sleep issues, if you have any other chronic disease that you're successfully managing,   - Mike Thibideau it's when you're not successfully managing it and you require accommodation that people should feel safe coming forward and requesting it to help take care of themselves prior to needing an intervention or a relapse or being failing a drug test or any of those things.   - Liesel Mertes I'd like that turn of phrase. Going to ponder that, yeah, just even framing what it means to have the space, but also to have, you know. Protections in place for a successful management of that, I appreciate that. Is there anything else that you feel like would be important for people to know that I didn't ask you or that you didn't get a chance to say?   - Mike Thibideau I think that one place where I I don't think get into as fully as I would love is especially as it relates to empathy, is just the the effect that this has on our own family members of those who are struggling and how different it's handled within especially the workplace from like adult caregiving and other types of health based issues that our employees encounter with those that they love.   - Mike Thibideau I mean, I remember very distinctly, and I tell this story a lot about my my my mom's mother and her struggle with cancer and aging as she got further on in years. And I know that my mom talked about that stuff at work. I see people in my own workplace talking about their what they have to do to take care of their parents as they age and being very vocal and vulnerable with others about that struggle. And I can guarantee that none of that same kind of support existed for my mom when I was dealing with my addiction or that people feel comfortable coming forward about when their loved ones are struggling.   - Mike Thibideau And this is an area where I think leadership has an ability to lead through vulnerability. And if you are a person who is in a company and you know somebody yourself who's struggling with addiction and it's affecting your life, I encourage you to be very vocal about that with your employees and then through that, discuss the support mechanisms that the workplace has to offer and just let them know that you're available for them to talk to if they ever just need a shoulder.   - Mike Thibideau Because. I mean, I know people who drop their son or son or daughter off in treatment and then went back to work like that day or the next hour and. That would be so hard and I would also venture to say would be something that if they actually talk to their boss about their boss would be like, no, like take care of yourself. You know, take the take the rest of the day off at least,   - Liesel Mertes and I imagine, you know, you've you've thought more on this, but I can imagine that is because there's there's a lot of levels of perhaps shame and protection built in that if people knew that I had a loved one who is going through this, like, how would they view me?   - Liesel Mertes And also, you know, a sense. You know, with whatever judgment of whether it's right or wrong, of wanting to protect that individual, like I don't want to expose my adult son to people knowing that he's struggling with this, what would they think is, is that. I don't know if accurate is the right term, do you find that those levels of kind of perception and protective impulses are like baked into why people feel uncomfortable talking about these things?   - Mike Thibideau Yeah, I think that that's that's a huge part of it, is that sense of stigma and shame and wanting to protect their loved ones. I know the probably a big part of it is they they they're worried to an extent about how it reflect on them. I know my own mom and early on especially would constantly say things like what could we have done differently? What could I have done differently? And the answer was like, nothing like your you were great.   - Mike Thibideau Like you killed it, you know, and that was totally outside of their control. But I don't know that it would have been viewed that way by other people if she had been more public about that. And that might. And I think that's fair.   - Mike Thibideau But I also know that that narrative has evolved in the last five years. I've seen just how this narrative has evolved just even in the last two or three and. Even in my own workplace, I can say, granted, I had been vulnerable even during my interview about my personal recovery, and I introduced myself as a person in recovery, my first day and my first staff meeting.   - Mike Thibideau But even along with that, within a day of that disclosure, I think I had maybe was five people within my own workplace come forward to me and talk to me about the struggles and loved ones of theirs that had. Which is kind of really a showcase to me, the power that that vulnerability can have,   - Liesel Mertes Absolutely I I resonate with that in my own in my own areas of loss. You know, it is the power of, like, giving voice to that. And it's amazing exactly what you said, whether, you know, from the leadership level on down, how that gives other people the space to think. I can give voice to this to.   - Liesel Mertes Mike, I'm going to link information about workforce recovery in the show notes is the best way for people to be in touch with you via your website or via the phone that, you know, if there's an H.R. director or, you know, company leader who says, I really want to avail myself of these resources, how should they be in touch with you?   - Mike Thibideau So right on the front page, the program page of our website, if you go to Wellness Indiana Douglas Recovery and you scroll down just a little bit below the slider, I think the first button you see says schedule a free conversation today or like start a conversation today. If you click on that, that my email pops up and I'm happy to talk with anybody about anything, and I can pretty much say fairly reliably, if I can't direct you, if I can't help you, I can direct you to somebody who can.   - Mike Thibideau And I am happy to do so for any business or really anyone who just wants to talk. And do what do at least do what we can for them?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, thank you, Mike. Thank you for sharing not only about your work, but out of your own story today. Appreciate it. I'm I'm going to get ready to click stop recording unless. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we officially stop recording?   - Mike Thibideau I'm just really grateful for the ability to tell my story, I'm grateful for the life that I'm able to have and grateful that my daughter and soon to be daughters, you know, God willing, never have to know that old me.   - Mike Thibideau And only get to have a dad that gets to be around and present for them. So thank you for the opportunity. And I'm I just want people to know that this is a great life to live if you let it be.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Mike Supportive workplaces matter.Mike talked about the impact of a boss and workplace that let him take the time he needed as he dealt with his addiction.  And I am so glad to learn more about the supports that are available through Indiana Workforce Recovery.  Check out their resources in the show notes. Providing support for caregivers and family members is also important.Mike talked about how his mom felt unable to share, like her struggle was cloaked in shame and judgment.  Leaders, you are part of creating a safe space where people can talk and receive support, without fear of judgment.  If you are someone that is struggling with addiction, or love someone that is, I want to remind you of the Mike’s closing words.There is a great life available to live and resources to help you get there.  And as point 3b, you might want to pick up a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People   OUTRO     Learn more about Indiana Workforce Recovery here:  https://www.wellnessindiana.org/recovery/

Miscarriage and Meaning:  an Interview with Danielle Ireland   - Danielle Ireland It was four or five different nurses came in one at a time and just held my hand and looked me in the eye and told me her story of loss was a miscarriage. And and I don't remember I don't remember their faces. I don't remember their names. But I just remember each each time it was like this wave of relief. And I'm still feeling it now talking about it like hearing I lost two and then I had to. I had to and I lost one and I had two more.  I lost three and I had just. It was just a different expression of you're not alone. You're not alone, you're not alone. And I couldn't have been more grateful and I didn't know that I needed that at the time. I just had no idea how much I needed that.   INTRO   My guest today is Danielle Ireland.  She is a speaker, actress, ballroom dancer, licensed therapist, recovering perfectionist, a wife and a soon-to-be-mother with her second child, a little girl.  And we spend time in this episode talking about her work, her pregnancy, and the miscarriage of her first child, a son, who would have turned one at the close of 2020.  Danielle shares on the importance of empathy, how partners can grieve differently, and why it really bugged her when people kept telling her, “I’m sorry”.   Danielle and I began our time together reminiscing about the toys of our childhood.    - Liesel Mertes We are both children of the 80s, what was one of your favorite toys from that era?   - Danielle Ireland Oh, this is a great question. Oh, my gosh. One of my favorite toys from that era. Well. Let's see, I was really big into my little ponies and I was really big into Care Bears and Jem and the holograms and also Barbie, I had the my favorite Barbie. There were two that were my favorites. One was the nineteen fifties Barbie. So she had like the Lucille Ball, like hair cut and bangs and have like this like old school 50 styles, black and white bathing suit.   - Danielle Ireland I just loved her. And then there was also gymnastics Barbie and yes. So she had like bending working joints so I could make her do backflips and front flips and she was flipping everywhere. But actually a funny story about my Barbies. I loved playing with them, but I hate addressing them because I didn't have the patience for all of the little snaps. But I really loved all the shoes. So Barbies were always naked in high heels. And so that was my mom said she got some fun looks with me holding my naked Barbies with her.   As a Barbie-loving child, Danielle thought she might want to be a marine biologist.  Then an archeologist.   - Danielle Ireland And so it was either like swimming with dolphins every day, digging up dinosaur bones. And then of course, once I got the first full length movie I ever watched, this is all through. My mom's telling of it, I don't actually remember was Cinderella. And so but I remember when I started getting into live action movies and when I started to understand the concept of, oh, like, those people are pretending, especially when things were really intense, I would get nervous.   - Danielle Ireland My parents are really good about explaining. You know, this is a make believe world. These are the characters in this world and this is what the performers do. And I was like, that's a job. And so I, I that's I think when my obsession with film and performance started and because I realized, oh, I can pretend to do all the things I want to do, I don't even have to pick one thing. And so that kind of got me on the, I think the performing arts track at the young age potentially.   Danielle studied theater in college and then worked teaching dance.  She auditioned in places like Chicago and Louisville and Cincinnati.    - Danielle Ireland But it it felt like a gamble. And I'm not a gambler at heart. I think that that's a large part why that wasn't you. I think you have to have that willingness to accept the risk when you when you pursue a career like that.   - Danielle Ireland And I never fully took the plunge, but yeah, I still got some paid acting work up until I was, I think, twenty nine.   When Danielle started dating the man that is now her husband, she began to think about what she really wanted in life.   - Danielle Ireland And it was the first time that I started to think about future, my future beyond what what instantly gratified me, like I the the nature of the in order to to be a dance instructor and performer and the way that I like to do it, you had to rehearse before and after your teaching hours and your teaching hours were from one to ten.   - Danielle Ireland And so my whole world there was I mean, it was just I don't want to say small and that I wasn't enjoying it. And then I didn't love the people I was with. But it it was a very insular.   She began to ask herself different questions:  what are my values?  What do I really care about?      - Danielle Ireland looking back, I think I spent a lot of time hiding as a dance instructor because it fulfilled a lot of ego. It took a lot of those boxes like I was still performing. So I didn't feel like I was wasting my college degree in the performing arts.   - Danielle Ireland And it was fun to tell people that's what I did. It was fun. It was fun to wear costumes like it filled it. It was fulfilling in some respects, but it didn't force me to ask myself deeper questions is kind of like living your life on a cruise ship. It's like it was like living in a party atmosphere, which was it served a purpose.   - Danielle Ireland But it wasn't until I started asking those harder hitting questions that I realized that, oh, if this part of my life wasn't here, I would have a lot of serious gaps, like a lot of big gaping holes in my identity, my purpose, how fulfilled I really was.   So she began to ask herself what environments felt best?  And moved throughout a series of jobs.  She worked at a cosmetics counter, selling organic skin care, then was a store manager for a fashion brand.  Then there was a day spa. Each stop made her wonder if she would ever find a place to land and led her to want to work for herself, which she started to do as a beauty consultant and blogger, helping women find clothes and cosmetics.   - Danielle Ireland But what I realized really quickly was that after working with a woman, maybe twice, she found her, matched her foundation and she knew how to curl her hair. She started talking to me about much more intimate things, like we've had three kids and my husband and I are having sex anymore. I have gained weight over the last few years and they just don't feel right in my skin like that. It was those moments that I started to feel what I call just like electricity.   - Danielle Ireland It just was like tingling in my body. And it was it was it may have hit me all in one moment. It certainly would make for a better story if it did, I don't honestly remember, but I just felt so struck each time some woman would open up her heart to me, share some vulnerability with me and just expose something deeper and richer. And I just wanted to dive into that question with everything that I had. But I felt kind of stunted by what I felt like was a lack of of training.   - Danielle Ireland And so I felt like I had to keep censoring myself with all this. Has been my experience with this or my opinion would be this, but I wanted to offer more with that type of conversation.   - Danielle Ireland And that was really the first time that I thought, oh, is that is this what therapy is? This is what counseling is, because I hadn't even received therapy or counseling up until that point in my life. And so the year my husband and I got married, I decided I wanted to go to graduate school and pursue this.   Danielle began graduate school in counseling.    - Danielle Ireland And so that's started around thirty, thirty years old.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And I met you like. Right as you were officially finishing up your degree. I think you. Just had a turning and a final paper.   - Danielle Ireland That sounds right. Yeah, and what was that close at now that we're in pandemic time prior to it seems like a blur.   - Liesel Mertes When did you finish up your degree?   - Danielle Ireland So let me think. I graduated in May 2017. And I, I remember graduation was Mother's Day, so I think it was like, may I say something. But I remember graduation was on a Sunday and I began working in a private practice the very next day like I took no time off. I felt like once I understood and had a vision and what felt like not a track, but like a breadcrumb trail of, oh, this is going to get me where I want to be and I think I'm on the right path for myself.   - Danielle Ireland And I felt that certainty and for the first time, probably who knows how long. I also felt and this is I think now insert the trigger for uprooting my anxiety and all my fears and self doubts and insecurities.   - Danielle Ireland But it was I realized what I wanted to do at a time where I felt like, oh, my gosh, if I just wasted however many years trying to find this life, that's what I felt at the time. And so I attacked pursuing my degree and then jumping into work with such intensity because I felt like I was trying to catch up and and prove myself and also try to beat my biological clock because I you know, having children wasn't at the top of my mind at that time of my life, but I knew it was coming up in a couple of years.   - Danielle Ireland It's funny being six months pregnant now. I have no idea how quickly that would how quickly those those things would come together. But I really felt like I was constantly racing the clock. And so when I met you. If it was right around the time I was finishing my degree, I, I felt like I was always trying to stay a couple of months ahead of where I really was. And yeah. So I that time feels like a blur to me too, because I think I was just living in my head for such a long time.   - Liesel Mertes I am I have my own particular resonance within my own story of that. It's and I hear a little bit in you, but for me it was not even necessarily external voices telling me, like, you haven't achieved enough or you've wasted time or you need to be somewhere different. It was very much an inner voice that was just driving me of exactly. The anxious is the right sort of a word, like I thought I would have been somewhere different, but now I'm here.   - Liesel Mertes But now I wish I was further along. And it's it's a mental game to be constantly churning within.   - Danielle Ireland Oh, no, you're you're you're absolutely right, and you're you couldn't have I mean, because I could not have been more supported and encouraged by the people around me. There was no one in my life, no one in my corner looking over my shoulder saying, why didn't you figure this out sooner? Are you sure you shouldn't be further along?   - Danielle Ireland That was one hundred thousand percent. My own internal critic and yeah, that that had chatter because I remember I remember the first day being an orientation for the graduate program and it was like it would pick new things to make me feel small about that voice, would pick new things to make me feel small about on a daily basis. But I remember the big one when I was in the program was I was probably one of two hundred and fifty graduate students in the program I was in.   - Danielle Ireland I think 10 were over the age of twenty three that because they most people went directly from undergraduate school to graduate school. And so there were a handful of people like me who realized at some point later in their life that they wanted to go back to school. But I just felt so out of place.   - Danielle Ireland And I remember this kind of orientation exercise where like, let's have everyone go around and say what your undergraduate degree was. And it was political science and social work, social work and psychology, sociology and psychology, family health and wellness and sociology.   - Danielle Ireland And I was like theater. I just felt so oh God, I felt so out of place.   - Liesel Mertes You also talked about, you know, the sense of like your biological clock and a built in and the sense of time horizons that also was at play when we first met. Would you tell me a little bit about your pregnancy that preceded this one?   - Danielle Ireland Oh, of course. Of course. Yeah. So that was two years ago now, I think. Oh goodness. Yeah. So I have right around 2018, so about a year into my work at my first practice. My husband and I decided we wanted to start trying and trying to conceive a baby, and it's that that and I haven't revisited this in a while, but spending my entire adult sexual life trying to prevent pregnancy and then thinking that we're just going to lift the barrier and it's going to happen the first time, it even though logically I understood that, I think emotionally I thought, like, sure, we'll try it.   - Danielle Ireland We'll have sex a couple of times, bing, bang, boom, we'll get pregnant. Easy peasy. And that just wasn't our journey. It took us about a year to get pregnant the first time. And I was about I was just like three days shy of entering my second trimester when I miscarried our first pregnancy. Our son and. Yeah, it was a crushing, crushing blow, and that's when Julie Kratz, I think was the one who suggested I meet with you and.   - Danielle Ireland I'm so glad I did, but, yeah, we we met for coffee, and I didn't even know what we were going to meet about. I just I just said yes. Well, I'm really glad that I did. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And I'm you know, even to hear you say that, I'm shocked that two months into your not two months into your second trimester, I mean, that's also like there's never an easy time to have a baby die. But that's also like you've you've spent, you know, a number of months at that point, like anticipating and thinking about it, not even to count, you know, the whole year of I imagine like you said, I think your term was easy peasy. Lemon, Sweezy, I'm thinking how did that year unfold prior to conceiving? And as I said, now it's just as the years go by and the more I get to hold stories of people with their journey towards building a family, the more I realize, like there's not just one on ramp and off ramp like people.   - Liesel Mertes Stories are way more complex than we often get a chance to give voice to an emotional journey.   - Liesel Mertes How did that year like how is that feeling for you in the midst of all of these new professional stresses as well?   - Danielle Ireland Yeah, I was the first time in my life I was disappointed by my period, which was so strange because I have thought of I can remember more times in my life where I got my period and it was like, oh, thank God. You know, I guess we would kind of high five each other. Like, we're good, we're good. And it was such a different sensation. And I think that it. Over time, what I didn't realize was happening and I wasn't letting myself acknowledge that I was starting to feel disappointed by my body.   - Danielle Ireland Each month I would get my period. I felt like I was letting us down and I was letting myself down and my body was letting me down in. What's interesting, even expressing it that way, is I have recently just been catching up with the girlfriend and I she asked me what my intention was for twenty, twenty one. And last year my intention was, was trust and just in everything, just how could I trust myself more deeply? How could I listen to myself more, how can I honor that that more.   - Danielle Ireland But I think this year my word is pleasure because I think about my body and there's to kind of bring it back to this to the what you asked and my story a little bit. I think when I left dance and these other these other jobs that I did like once I stepped into. Kind of committing to graduate school. I didn't realize it, but I think I really splintered off from my body because I was so consumed with my mind and my own thoughts, like my anxiety, my fear, my insecurity became all consuming.   - Danielle Ireland And I just I voted my body off the island and I lived in my head, which was so unlike what my experience has been basically performing and dance, it's a very kinetic it's a very connected mind body experience, and I lived in that world my entire life and I didn't know any different. And so I didn't even realize I wasn't self-aware enough to know, like, oh, what you're experiencing is anxiety or oh, what you're experiencing is depression, like in your depression is manifesting itself as anxiety.   - Danielle Ireland I just didn't have the tools or the language or the any way of knowing that. And so with the miscarriage, the if it's. If I can be. Maybe bold enough to say it this way, I think the gift or the lesson. In. In light of that loss was that the pain was so acute and it was so it took such a hold of everything that it was the first time in however many years I'd been in that state where the head trash was gone, like the the chatter, like the silence.   - Danielle Ireland And the grief was there was just there was silence in my head for the first time. And I just sat in the suck of all of that. And I don't know if I can't. No, that's not the case for me now, like the head trader, like it's returns, she's she's she's come back. So I didn't hold on to that forever, but I experienced it and I I felt like I recognized it. And I think that that helped me start to return to my body and return to myself.   - Danielle Ireland And I just. Again, I'm really hesitant to say that I'm grateful because I don't want I don't mean in any way, so I'm grateful for the loss of that life, but I am grateful that I took a lesson from it that can inform my life forward, because otherwise, I think for me, if if there wasn't some meaning in it, it would have just felt like a terrible, awful, awful. Indescribable waste and giving that experience some purpose is helpful for me and my healing, but I just if anyone's listening that's going through an experience like that, I in no way, I don't think that's necessary or required.   - Danielle Ireland It just that was what was helpful for me.   - Danielle Ireland But as far as the conception journey leading up to that, I was so focused on my plan and my timeline that sex wasn't as fun. Yeah, it was more pressured. I know that my husband felt that, too, in his own ways.   - Danielle Ireland And and it was hard. I was playing the comparison game a lot. It was really hard to not compare myself to friends who got pregnant by surprise or friends who said, yeah, I just tracked my period on an app for a couple of months and it happened on month three, like each month that ticked by that it wasn't happening.   - Danielle Ireland I was feeling more and more lost and I ended up finding out that I was pregnant after I had scheduled an appointment to meet a fertility specialist. We were going to schedule a time to do some blood work. And my period was late. And I was I was already, I think, two weeks pregnant when I went to.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Danielle’s story in a moment.  I want to let you know about one of our sponsors, Handle with Care Consulting.  2021 meets us with new challenges.  A new administration, the same epidemic, the same division, and the relentless winter.  Maintaining mental health is challenging and it is hard to keep people engaged.  Let Handle with Care help.  With keynotes, certificate programs, and executive coaching options, our empathy training will help you create a culture of caring where people survive, stabilize, and thrive.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes Again, as we noted, miscarriage, it's actually way more common than our public discourse would indicate, where the assumption is that, you know, every pregnancy is a healthy baby. And, you know, as soon as you get that test, you should start decorating the nursery and plan, which I think can oftentimes mean for people that go through miscarriage is that you end up giving the news to lots of people who have no idea like what do or say?   - Liesel Mertes What were some of like the most tone deaf or hard responses that you absorbed after a miscarriage?   - Danielle Ireland Yeah, what a great question. Well, I'll say that. I think part of the reason why I'm so open and willing to talk about this in general is that I was given the again, I don't even know if this is the right language for what this experience was, but I can't think of a different way to describe it. So the experience my husband and I had at the emergency room because I ended up delivering my son at home and we took him with us to the emergency room because I was hemorrhaging pretty bad and it was just really physically taxing experience.   - Danielle Ireland And I think I probably also went into shock and just lots of those things. But I remember I'll just I'll never forget the grace and the kindness and the warmth and also, I mean, it's bringing tears to my eyes, thinking about it, too, because had this happen during COVID having to be there by myself, I just can't imagine. I thought about that when I thought about women who undoubtedly have experienced this during shutdown and have had to be separated during that time because my husband was with me every second and laid in the bed with me most of the time, but.   - Danielle Ireland But the the hospital staff, in particular, the nurses that were working on that shift because it was around three o'clock in the morning, so it was third shift. Oh, my God, these women were like angels on Earth. And we were probably in the hospital, I think somewhere between seven and nine hours. And as I said, it was probably when there was like a shift change going on. I don't know when it was exactly, but it was towards the end of our stay, about four I can't remember.   - Danielle Ireland It was four or five different nurses came in one at a time and just held my hand and looked me in the eye and told me her story of loss was a miscarriage. And and I don't remember I don't remember their faces. I don't remember their names. But I just remember each each time it was like this wave of relief. And I'm still feeling it now talking about it like hearing I lost two and then I had to. I had to and I lost one and I had two more.   - Danielle Ireland I lost three and I had just. It was just a different expression of you're not alone. You're not alone, you're not alone. And I couldn't have been more grateful and I didn't know that I needed that at the time. I just had no idea how much I needed that.   - Danielle Ireland But the gift of that experience for me. It just made it so clear that for me, my healing would it it didn't require silence that you really needed to come through my expression of that.   - Danielle Ireland And so. And thankfully, thankfully, I didn't keep the news of finding out I was pregnant to myself, but my husband and I, we were told we were preparing to do like a photo shoot with the sonogram and we were going to do a gender reveal. We were in that planning stage. And so thankfully, and I know that this is such a personal thing for everyone to handle in their own way, but I'm grateful that I. That because people understood the joy and the excitement.   - Danielle Ireland And the pregnancy, I didn't have to explain as much about the pain of loss. I didn't feel like I needed to play catch up with two different conversations at the same time.   - Danielle Ireland And so when we got pregnant this current time, we got pregnant a second time. I remember my husband initially felt very differently than I did. I wanted to tell everybody, not announce it on social media, obviously, but I wanted to let all of our friends and family know because for me it was like, I need them to know that I'm in this experience because I just it's what I need to feel safe and secure.   - Danielle Ireland And he he wasn't so sure. He was like, well, but what if what if we experienced the same thing again? And I just. My my perspective on it was that. Keeping my joy, like, stifled or trying to cut my joy back wouldn't prevent or protect me from the loss if it happened. So I needed to let myself fully feel the joy because. That was the only way forward from for me. And so he you know, but I also wanted to honor and respect his needs.   - Danielle Ireland And so we started telling a few people at a time, a little at a time. But I would probably say for him, his stress level probably really didn't go down until the 20 week ultrasound. Yeah, he probably didn't feel I would say he didn't feel that confident until then, but. But yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and what you say there highlights something that is resonant with my own experience, which is that grief is such a profoundly isolating journey, like two people's two people's grief, even if they're even if it's like you and your partner and you both lost a child, can just manifest itself so differently in different moments. And those those conversations can feel hard when when both people are saying, like, I need or I want something different in the midst of that.   - Danielle Ireland Well, and I don't even know if I can give us full credit for that. We we scheduled a session with so we have a therapist that we see individually, but have also seen maybe three or four times and four couples work and we just can't see eye to eye. And we scheduled an appointment the week. That following week after it happened, I don't remember the exact timeline, and it wasn't because there was a rift between us, but we both just we just somehow knew and or felt like we needed to check in with Brian.   - Danielle Ireland And he said something that I am so grateful for. How can you give each other the permission to to need to walk through your grief differently,? And I didn't fully understand what that meant, but that, putting that conversation at our minds, like how can because, for example, I could handle one social interaction a day. So what would happen? So the first maybe eight days after it happened, I have one friend at a time. I don't remember managing it either.   - Danielle Ireland It just seemed to happen that way. But like one girlfriend would reach out and she would want to come over and she'd either bring food or wine or whatever, and we would just sit around and talk or she would listen for a couple of hours. And that was it. That was all the energy I had.   - Danielle Ireland And at the time, we had two weddings coming up. I think one was the weekend after it happened and another was the following weekend. And I needed to really withdraw and kind of cocoon up.   - Danielle Ireland And my husband, he's actually more of an extrovert than I am. And and so. We were able to, I think, process in a healthier way with that supportive of our therapy session and also looking at what does it really mean for me to need to be by myself or to not want to show up at a wedding and not I couldn't I just couldn't handle the stimulation of being around people.   - Danielle Ireland And I didn't want to see their faces and I didn't want to see the like. So I don't want to handle I just couldn't handle that. But I think my husband needed to be out and about and needed to be with people. But he was caught between not wanting to feel like he was abandoning me. Right. Or wanting to honor himself. And I was caught between not wanting to put him in a position where he felt trapped, but also needing to honor my own needs.   - Danielle Ireland But I don't know if we would have had the language for that. Without, I think, the support of our therapist at the time and   - Liesel Mertes And so what ended up happening?   - Danielle Ireland You know, was that like. I couldn't commit I basically I just wasn't willing to commit to any plans until moments before because I was like the waves can hit at different moments and they're like, I may I suck. I just don't know how I'm going to feel. And so I went to one of the wedding receptions and I stayed until they served cake.   - Danielle Ireland And then I was done and and it was OK, like we were we were able to to get through it. And I think that that lesson has been such a. It's really helped, I think, just transform the way we support one another and how we're able to hold space for the fact that our needs are different, which is so much easier said than done. But when when you're when you're knee deep in grief, it's it's hard not to want to hold other people responsible for your pain.   - Danielle Ireland But in truth, I think what we both realized is like. It's a shared experience and we're supporting each other, but even in that we're not responsible for each other, which is. It's hard, but it was it was really helpful. And I find sometimes hand-in-hand with that is.   - Liesel Mertes I don't know, there's kind of the romantic myth that your partner should be able to fulfill, like physical, emotional self actualization needs, which is, you know, kind of a bogus premise, even when things are completely stable, let alone when you're both deeply compromised.   - Liesel Mertes And to be able to say, like I can, I can give you something and I don't want to pull back entirely. But really, like I, I find in my own story and in those that I've worked with, like you, you need people outside of your partner to be able to kind of hold some of that emotional ballast because it's a big ask, you know, to say to the other person, like, please be my everything in this time where so many important aspects of my world seem really unstable.   - Danielle Ireland And it's just you're asking someone to fulfill an order that they just can't. It's kind of like emotional arrest. It's I want you to be responsible for fulfilling all of my sexual needs and fantasies. Know what I know what my needs are and something that I hear a lot in sessions and I'm sure with couples and I'm sure has come out of my mouth, too. But that sense of well, you know, I've told you this before or you know this about me.   - Danielle Ireland So that that idea that like if I've told you something about myself once, you're now forever held accountable to not disappointing me in that way. And that's I think that's a really that's a fine line. And it's a tricky space because I think. And this is, I think, a big part of my own journey for the last couple of years, like I'm still in, I'm not far enough away from it to feel like I've got a really clear grasp on this.   - Danielle Ireland But where when I become more when I take more ownership for my own experiences, my just the experiences of my life and the less accountable I make David to that happiness. It's more like I feel more of a freedom in a permission, like we're bearing witness to each other's lives and we're. Which is really what I think I want more than anything is to feel seen and heard, which is what validation really means.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes As you think about your journey with miscarriage, what do you wish if you could just, like, plant a knowingness in like the general consciousness? What do you wish that people knew about the pain of. Yeah, and, you know, it sounds like very visceral and embodied your particular manifestation of miscarriage.   - Liesel Mertes What would you say, gosh, what would I want someone to know?   - Danielle Ireland Oh, when I realized I never answered the question of my tone deaf comments, but I would say.   And I don't and you could probably navigate the how how this would actually look in action better than I can, because this is more, I think, your expertise.   - Danielle Ireland But I would say that one of the things I felt. Often, which is probably why we're so selective of who I chose to see in those early stages was that I had to manage the other person's pain on my back. And so I went from it. So but I think thankfully, I either was self aware enough at the time or understood enough about that through other experiences of grief or my training, like I was able to kind of maybe shield myself a little bit.   - Danielle Ireland But there were a handful of times even with close family. Where I felt like I had to continue to nurture them through their disappointment in my loss. And so it was more so than any one particular comment,   - Danielle Ireland I think the one I probably heard a lot was, which makes sense. I mean, it would be very instinctive, which is like, I'm so sorry. But it was it was that was a tough one for me to receive because they they did nothing wrong.   - Danielle Ireland And so I think there could be a difference between. I'm so sorry that this is your experience. I'm so sorry that this is what you and David are going through. I'm so sorry that you're in this pain. But I think what it felt like people were apologizing to me a lot and. That's. That was. Tricky and I think also probably the most tone deaf, which in the grand scheme of things really wasn't that bad.   - Danielle Ireland But I remember my general practitioner saw her for a physical maybe six months after it happened.   - Danielle Ireland I don't remember exactly. And she, having never been pregnant herself, in her own words, she she was very matter of fact, I think probably from like she's an expert in the body, therefore an expert in what happened with my body. But she said. You know, because I actually never blamed myself for the miscarriage, I'm grateful for that that wasn't that wasn't a manifestation of that particular grief for me. I didn't I didn't think that I had done anything wrong.   - Danielle Ireland I mean, I felt like my body had let me down, but I didn't think like, oh, I shouldn't have jumped up and down that hard or I shouldn't have. I didn't I didn't, thankfully, have that part of it. But she said, you know what, I'm sure this is so tough, Danielle. And I'm sure no matter what I say, you're going to blame yourself anyway. But I just need you to know it's not your fault.   - Danielle Ireland And it was just so I felt so brash and I felt like she was speaking on an assumption of what my experience was rather than ask me about it now. And that I remember kind of ruffled my feathers and rubs me the wrong way. But but thankfully, I don't think I experienced too too much in the other way. Yeah. I don't remember feeling disappointed by people very often, thankfully.   - Liesel Mertes What has do you feel like there has been or what has been the carryover into this next pregnancy as you are now six months long? Have you? You know, it's you can't you can only live your own experience like you can't imagine, like, well, what would have been like to have a second pregnancy without that. But can you pull a thread through to say it has felt different because of this?   - Danielle Ireland Oh, it has to. Without, without a doubt, I, I remember in the first couple of days, it may have been the second day after the miscarriage.   - Danielle Ireland I remember thinking how remembering how caught up I was in my body changing and the bloating and my belly and my swollen boobs and like all of this, all of the stuff. And I remember sitting outside with a friend feeling just empty and saying I. God, just in a day like I would trade all of that for all of that discomfort, I would take it all back like I want all of that back. And but I couldn't have known I couldn't have known that without the loss.   - Danielle Ireland Like, I. I don't know. And it's not to blame my myself prior to that miscarriage, because that was what I was experiencing at the time and that was what was true for me at the time. But I was. I think I was. Feeling caught up in the physical changes and feeling like home less attractive and this and this and then the loss just kind of snapped my focus after my priorities back.   - Danielle Ireland And to be perfectly honest, I don't think I even knew how much I wanted to be a mother until I lost my first baby.   - Danielle Ireland And not to say that I wouldn't. Love that boy, if he were here, has his first birthday would have been on December twenty third, so assuming he would have been born on his due date, but. I I've walked through the experiences of this pregnancy, still feeling them, I still have my moments where I've complained. It's not to say this is I don't I don't want to say like I have been an angel in this whole pregnancy.   - Danielle Ireland It's been like a gift from the mother. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, I've still had plenty of, like, moments to kvetch and and and wine. But this ring of appreciation and this sort of Tuzer were like this thread that's pulled through is just massive, massive amounts of gratitude.   - Danielle Ireland Like I can feel her kick right now. Every time I feel her move, it's just so exciting. And I know I have no doubt that being able to see her and hold her and touch her and smell her will be enriched because of what was informed from from the first experience.   - Danielle Ireland Like, I think I was so focused on how my life was changing, what it might cost me and what I might be losing, that actually the whole experience, losing the whole experience, like losing the whole pregnancy, it just flipped the priorities.   - Danielle Ireland And like this pregnancy because I didn't slow down. I didn't slow down on my production. My like the amount of clients I was scheduling, my expectations for myself. I didn't stop to rest. I just felt like I had to keep trucking along like life was normal.   - Danielle Ireland And and so I needed to keep producing and doing and doing all the things I'm like I'm just going to do, like with a baby. It's no big deal. Like that's why they have baby born until just like the baby on and you get right back to life. And I think again, it was that old anxiety of I can't slow down, I can't stop because it'll all slip away.   - Danielle Ireland But this this first trimester actually was a lot more uncomfortable than the first pregnancy. I was a lot more sick. What we're tired and knowing what I knew from before it was, I just gave myself a lot more grace, took a lot more naps, I reduced my my client schedule. I had breaks between clients, which I never did before. It was just I would just kind of knock out client, client, client, client, maybe get a little bit of time to eat client, client and then onto the next thing.   - Danielle Ireland And I scaled way, way back. And what's incredible, too, I mean, my little daughter has already been such a powerful teacher for me and she's not even born yet.   - Danielle Ireland But I've actually been able to do more by pushing less in specifically in my professional career. Like this has been a really, really remarkable year for me professionally in terms of what I've been able to put out and I've cut. At least my expectations and my schedule way, way back, way, way back.   - Liesel Mertes Danielle, thank you for sharing so many aspects of that wisdom. I also want to be cognizant of your time. Is there anything else that you would really like to share that I didn't ask a question that led you into?   Danielle Ireland Such a good question, I'm going to borrow some of these questions in my office because they're so good. Gosh, no, I can't think I can't think of anything. Other than.   - Danielle Ireland I'm grateful to have this time to get to share with you and and your listeners and the people that you connect your material with.   - Danielle Ireland And I'm just incredibly grateful that I was introduced to you at a time where I didn't even realize how much I needed to know you.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I am so glad to continue to watch both of our paths unfurl and I celebrate this new little one, I celebrate not only the birthing of a physical child, but you did. You gave birth to lots of things and initiatives in a pretty barren year. That is 2020.   - Liesel Mertes So if people want to know more about you and your work, is your website the best place to go?   - Danielle Ireland Yes. So danielleireland.com will show links to a guided journal called Treasured that I created this year. I'm also leading a workshop called the Unleashing New Relationship Workshop. And the link to participate or learn more about that is there. And then there's more information about me and blog content and my social media links are all housed there. So that's a nice, easy space for people. Or my podcast, if they want to read more.   MUSICIAL TRANSITION   Here are three helpful takeaways from my conversation with Danielle: There is power in sharing your story of loss.Miscarriage is often a private burden, unseen to a wider world unless the parent chooses to share.  Danielle shared how meaningful it was to have multiple nurses come up to her in the recovery room to share that they too had lost a child in miscarriage.  They spoke words of hope and camaraderie to her in the midst of a very dark time…and gave her confidence to know that her healing journey did not have to be silent. Partners grieve differently.As her therapist asked her, “Can you allow your partner to experience grief differently than you?”  What does it look like to give the other person space and allowance?  This is deeply resonant with my own experience of walking with my husband through our seasons of parental loss. “I’m sorry” can sometimes sound redundant or abstract to a person suffering.I often tell people that saying “I’m sorry that is happening to you” can be a really good go-to phrase, but this take-away is a good reminder that there is no one-size fits all approach to comfort.  For Danielle, the “I’m sorry” felt hollow.  Which brings me to the point 3b.  Pay attention to the person you are communicating with.  If they seem like they aren’t responding to your phrase, whether it is “I’m sorry” or something else, file that information away and try something different the next time you interact with them, like “I was thinking of you and how hard this must be.” The best comforters are those that pay attention and are consistently adapting to the person in front of them.      OUTRO   You can learn more about Danielle at https://danielleireland.com/

- Cari Hahn And I and I remember being on my hands and my knees rocking back and forth, screaming at the top of my lungs. I just was so devastated. And I think I was breathing all of it. I was breathing the fact that I had had cancer. I was grieving the fact that I had worked so hard and that I had left so little for myself   INTRO   My guest today is Cari Hahn, a breast-cancer survivor and the founder of Karma Candles.  Cari talks about the challenges or breast cancer, the stupid things people say (like telling you all about their friends/relatives that died from cancer, losing her job after treatment, and the journey through darkness that has led her to create literal and figurative light for others.    Cari and I recorded this conversation last fall, in the midst of breast cancer awareness week.  Cari is warm and engaging, she talks with her whole person, leaning forward with the intensity of the story.  And you will notice that there was a small problem with the recording, a bit of a hum in the background.  I didn’t realize the hum until it was too late but decided that the content was so good and helpful that I wanted to run it anyways.    Cari is married to Matt, a firefighter, and they have twin high school girls.    - Liesel Mertes Well, here you are, married to a firefighter with firefighter when you met him. How did you guys meet?   - Cari Hahn So he was he was a volunteer firefighter when I got home. So I was I was a senior in college. And I actually met him in Florida, of all places, at a wedding. And he came back from the wedding and our friends got married, sent him a postcard to call me.   - Cari Hahn So he proceeds to start calling me and he has my phone number. And I'm like, why is he calling?   But their relationship grew from that postcard and phone call…and Matt has been with the Indianapolis Fire Department for twenty plus years.    - Cari Hahn Oh, so we have two identical twin girls that are seventeen years old. So they are doing years at Carmel High School this year. We have Carly and Grace. They are they are delayed drivers. So they will actually they will be driving in about a week thankfully. So they waited for that.   - Cari Hahn And then we have a Great Dane named Ellie who was a rescue, and then we have a little dog that we had for oh gosh about Peekapoo. He he he's a little guy. It's hilarious to see the two of them next to each other and he's got a really bad underbite. And then we have Monkey, the cat that I referred to as my chemo cat because I got Monkey when I was going through cancer treatment.   - Liesel Mertes Well, that's a great segue, Monkey.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And so it was 2016 at your initial diagnosis. Had you and you had a lump that you found or what led you to your. Diagnosis?   - Cari Hahn My dad, so I I have the order, I have turned 40 that year, I have the order safely placed in a kitchen cabinet where I was going to where I kept forgetting about it. And but I just so happened to be sitting at the computer and my husband and I owned a business at that point.   - Cari Hahn So I was doing some selling for him. And I just I had to get under my arm. And when I ate, like, I felt then something in my to outside of my breast. And I thought that that's very strange. So I proceeded to then go upstairs and I still felt it. I then thought I took my shirt off and to see what was happening. And as I did that, I saw something there. It looked like it looked like a grape.   - Cari Hahn It was the size of a grape.   And with this lump, Cari’s journey with breast cancer began.  I   - Liesel Mertes And for someone who has not walked through that sudden emergence into the world of tests and things like that, I mean, was what was the most overwhelming part of all of that?   - Cari Hahn You know, I I think in the beginning it's extremely the amount of appointments. You couldn't you can't believe how many appointments. And I actually tried to total it the other day from the time I was frightened for my diagnosis when the diagnosis process started.   - Cari Hahn So mid-March until the end of December, when I was done with treatment that year, I probably went to the hospital at least seventy five to one hundred times for tests, for treatment, for whatever, if a lot.   - Cari Hahn So I think in the beginning, though, it is it's the weirdest feeling to know that you might have cancer in your body and you're just waiting for tests and schedules and but it's also life is going on around us too. So it's it's extremely overwhelming.   - Cari Hahn And when you when you when you get the diagnosis, then you learn this whole new language. And if it is, it's it's very overwhelming. And the diagnosis part, I think, is one of the really hard part because there's so much waiting involved with it.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that.   - Cari Hahn So initially I, I felt the cancer. So this is mid March. I then call after I felt it. I called the schedule, the mammogram the next day. And at that point they said, oh, no, we can't be. You need to go see your doctor, which you're like. And they're like, well, we're going to get you in actually sooner. And I was able to see my doctor right away.   - Cari Hahn What's weird about this is I had had a breast exam, so not a mammogram.   - Cari Hahn But she, she said she, she felt in December there was nothing sealable in December. So this is now mid March. And she basically is like that was not there when you were here in December. And it wasn't there was nothing there. And when when my breast cancer came out, when that when that particular cancer, my cancer ended up to the breast cancer, it was safe to do so. In six months. It grew from nothing available to phase two, which is mind blowing to me.   - Cari Hahn But I you there are so many times to go on. And so then I go for the mammogram. I had an ultrasound at the ultrasound. They said if there's a problem biopsy. And so sure enough, the radiologist came in and he's like he referred to it as a lesion and he said, you're going to need a biopsy.   - Cari Hahn And he said, you need questions.   - Cari Hahn And I said, know? And I just really I didn't know what a lesion was, but I knew I didn't want to be in that room anymore. And I knew I could do it.   - Cari Hahn So so I left very promptly and then I Googled. And as I got to my heart, what is the lesion in the tumor then that leads to the biopsy. And then, of course, that was when I got my diagnosis from that. But there's even more testing or more pathology then that goes on with the tumor.   - Cari Hahn So at first I went to when I went and met with an on. He told me the probability of me meeting was very good, that I probably wouldn't need to know what they are doing, pathology on my team for the next month is how long the pathology took. So I thought of April 15th. My cancer did not come out until mid-June.   - Liesel Mertes So you have this just when I imagine could be a very anxious in between waiting time. Yeah, that is dragging on.   - Cari Hahn It's very anxious and also are very scared because I don't really trust my body either because I have cancer in it. And then so I have the main cancer which was which was the state stage two in my right. Well then during an MRI, which I ended up using three MRI during the diagnosis and having the biopsy on the other side and then come to find out, I had it looked like a stage zero breast cancer, which is ductal carcinoma in situ.   - Cari Hahn It was then I have to wait here for on that side.   - Cari Hahn But during the time you're waiting and you're scared and you're thinking rolling in and it's it's a really it's a really hard place to find peace during that time.   - Liesel Mertes What sorts of things were you doing for yourself that were helpful and what sorts of other things were people doing for you that were helpful?   You can take other questions we have now.   - Cari Hahn So I just met with I have a lot of my clients now tend to be, gee, I went to deliver some things for the other day into a huge stack of cards and books and. You name it, gift cards and the response from people when you are diagnosed with cancer, I kind of would say it was almost kind of like a 10 year old in some ways. And I have I am from here. So I I have a lot of I know a lot of people.   - Cari Hahn My husband is from from here. So we're we're pretty connected with the community.   - Cari Hahn But the outpouring of love and support and and gift cards and cards and notes and all kinds of things, that the weekend that I was diagnosed, if it was at a party, you have people through the house the entire weekend. And it was actually it was a really fun weekend because I remember sitting on my porch for the weekend and drinking wine with friends and some of them I hadn't seen in a few years.   - Cari Hahn And the outpouring of support that I got during this time was really, really helpful as far as things that I was trying to do for myself. At that point.   I was I was trying to find books that maybe made less anxious for a long walk or just to kind of distract myself during that time, because it is it's a long way. And if it's just it feels like it goes on forever and ever and ever.   Cari felt well-supported in the immediate aftermath and even throughout her initial treatments.    - Cari Hahn So actually, during chemo, my work was actually my work was supportive during chemo, my my workplace. I actually I was by my employer during treatment. I was very supportive.   - Liesel Mertes They what kinds of things were they doing that were particularly good?   - Cari Hahn If I was at my coworkers ended up giving me six months of donated time, which was incredible. So they took their vacation days and donated them to me if I knew them, if I needed to take the time off, which was absolutely phenomenal.   - Cari Hahn And then there was a firefighter that was retiring.   - Cari Hahn And one of the conditions when he retired is, OK, I want to have my time and my vacation time lapse because I want her to have this during treatment. So my co-workers say they want to function with what we do in that time.   - Cari Hahn So I was very loved and cared for by my co-workers during that time.   - Liesel Mertes And when did things start to change? Well, let me let me take that back, because I forgot about this and I remember this today as I was kind of prepping, so as I was getting ready to go into surgery, they covered for me for about a week.   - Cari Hahn And I remember sitting down with the person who covered for me and she said something that she was giving herself props for the fact that she was going to be covering for me to be gone. And I thought, this is a weird statement I have. Like, I'm not going to Aruba. I'm getting ready to have breast cancer removed from my body. So that that was a little strange. And I just took that away. But, you know, they were I got a bonus at the end of that year.   - Cari Hahn So, again, they were still very supportive of me. The shift for me really started to happen as I was just a few months out of treatment is when I started to feel this shift from my employer. And in it it happened pretty quickly.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, tell me tell me more.   - Cari Hahn So I was this was now marked, so I'm done with active treatment, but breast cancer is this lifelong illness that 30 percent of us go on to be diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer after we've had early stage cancer.   - Cari Hahn So for me. I was getting ready to start a new cancer drug regimen. I'm exhausted and I've only met three weeks of work for everything. So that was for surgery, chemo and radiation that lasted for six and a half weeks. So I was very, very, very tired and I was struggling.   - Cari Hahn And I essentially, I went to my oncologist and I said, I'm really having a hard time. And I and I said, I need you to give me permission to do that, because I just I wanted someone to tell me it was OK, that I was tired and that I am the kind of person that if you tell me I'm doing a good job, I'm like, OK, I want to do the job.   - Cari Hahn So my medical treatment people are like, you're so brave, so strong. And I wanted to be all of those things and I didn't want to disappoint anyone or inconvenience anyone. And but really at this point, I just I couldn't hold it together anymore because I was so exhausted. So I went to my employer and I said, this is the beginning of March. And I said, listen, I just I need to cut off just a couple of these.   - Cari Hahn So for about three weeks, I worked 30 hours. And but it was interesting because at this time I am starting to feel a little bit about your chest and my my third week, essentially, I sat me down and they put their focus on unpaid leave or you need to go back to working full time, actually, to add to your your job, to actually add to the duties in another department. So with my job.   - Cari Hahn And. I mean, I was floored and I am like, this is really this is I was really floored during the conversation and then you could start that leaves today.   - Cari Hahn And I said, well, I said to him, I said, can I use any of any of my my from my coworkers? And at that point, it this was someone that I believe was my friend. And he looked at me and she said, no, I'm sorry, you don't have cancer anymore. You don't have donated time. And I said, oh, at least today your supervisor, your job role and your function. And I said, OK.   - Cari Hahn And I went back down to my desk and I remember being super grateful that I had a really big purse that day. But I also wish that maybe I brought it with me because I knew I knew I was never going to walk out that door. And I started throwing all the things that I could that belonged to me and my birth. And I picked up the phone and I and I called H.R. She was up on on the second level and I said, you know, I want to talk about it today.   - Cari Hahn And she said, OK. She said, I need you to bring your laptop and your cell phone. And I went upstairs and I took her my laptop and my cell phone. And I went ahead and gave her my my work credit card to never forget. And it was really it was hard. It was shocking. I'm walking out the door with the weirdest experience of my life. But what broke my heart even more was when I got in my car.   - Cari Hahn I knew at this point I had to call my doctor to get the paperwork started for again, I'm trying to figure out now I'm never walking back in the door, but I had to figure out health insurance and those things. So when I called my oncologist.   - Cari Hahn What, what really crushed me that day was I apologize to tell you this is unique or special, but we see this happen in probably 50 percent of our patients and that say it really crushed me.   - Cari Hahn And I remember coming home and I cried probably the hardest I've ever played in my entire life that night. It was like a grieving. It was like it was like it was like a death when I was freezing.   - Cari Hahn And I and I remember being on my hands and my knees rocking back and forth, screaming at the top of my lungs. I just was so devastated. And I think I was breathing all of it. I was breathing the fact that I had had cancer.   I was grieving the fact that I had worked so hard and that I had left so little for myself and that I could have been on unpaid leave or unpaid leave from my for my co-workers. And and I was grieving if I had used it earlier and would have been fine. And I was also I was grieving the fact that I knew at that point I was going to have to spend the rest of my life fighting.   - Liesel Mertes You know, your, your story has resonance with what I hear from a number of people who have gone through different disruptive life events, but it's this connection of like I go to work, I didn't go into this encounter thinking that I would quit, but it just became more that I would take whatever was offered. But it became so crystal clear to me in that moment, if you think back to like you stepping into that room, how I mean, there are many ways that the interaction could have been better, but like, what would you have hoped for in that's it?   - Liesel Mertes Like what would have been you coming out and going, oh, man, I'm so glad I work to capture that sentiment that you had earlier on in your diagnosis.   - Cari Hahn You know, you obviously at this point, I'll never know what really what really happened. My fears, my beliefs, my beliefs, because they talked a lot about insurance and how expensive the insurance was and how much their employee cost them and insurance. I was on their insurance if that wasn't my choice. My husband has felt so horrible I have to pay for insurance. Here's the thing about me. I am such a I. You can take the gloves off and I'll have any conversations with you if I would have sex.   - Cari Hahn You cost us a lot on insurance. Can you can you work part time and work here and then we just don't have I mean, I have been like, that's great. I would love to work part time.   - Cari Hahn Now, I don't know if that role if I could have done that, but I wish that whatever it was that caused that. But there had just been an honest conversation because I've spent the past three and a half years in my house.   - Cari Hahn What was it me? Was I just. Is it because I'm defective now? Because I have cancer? Like you said, people just not like me anymore because like cancer. I mean, it's all these things are replayed in my head that, you know, I don't really know what caused that. And again, even if it hasn't been a conversation I like, I just wish the conversation would have occurred.   - Cari Hahn The other thing is that I think if I'm being really honest, when you're going to reflect, you look like someone going through cancer. That's this where when I started, I, I have this long blonde hair. I have a fabulous personality. I'm happy I'm on these things and I love all of those things when I was going through cancer, because that's who I am. I, I, I like people. I have an outgoing personalities, but I also look fat because a lot of times I didn't wear a wig, I wore my hat.   - Cari Hahn So, you know, if if cancer is scary to look at and I don't know if that played a role, I don't know if they were like, oh, just get her out of there. We don't we don't want to see that. I mean, like, I was Shrek or something, I, I don't know. But but cancer, it's not sparkly. It's not pretty. It's cancer and it's hard. And and I gained weight when I was in cancer treatment because I eat potatoes because that's all.   - Cari Hahn But thank God I have this metallic taste in my mouth and you're tired and you're fatigued.   - Cari Hahn And you know, like I said, I'll never know what, what caused it, but so all I can do is show and and make up things in my head. And sometimes probably the things that I make up are probably pretty harsh and I'm sure not accurate.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, is that the challenge of those unanswered questions and even to just have in mind if if you're an organization who's dealing with someone who is in the midst of a lot of physical and emotional and mental upheaval, to think we've got a lot going on in their body and in their headspace, I want to communicate really like I want to over communicate.   - Liesel Mertes I want to overcome it. That's a good message, too. Yeah.   - Cari Hahn And when I was on this leave, as I'm trying to get my ducks in a row, I probably ended up being on leave for a couple of weeks. It was probably maybe a month or so.   - Cari Hahn And part of it too, I didn't quite want to play golf because I also thought I want to keep on coming back because you don't want me back. And that was the only power I think I have at that time. And I remember call me, I think, walking out the oncologist office and into the you're so overwhelmed already. I mean, like badgering again to make sure that I'm not going to come back. And that was really hard. And when I finally I finally started to get insurance, I got all the ducks in a row and I made the decision that the notice I wasn't coming back.   - Cari Hahn I went to pick up my things and that person met me down in the lobby. I had all my stuff. I mean, my brother said dumpster. I mean, just like they put me out there. But I remember her. She cried as if this is happening. And she's like, there's just some things that are not right and they're not fair. And she's crying. And I looked at her and I said, I'm going to do something about that.   Cari Hahn That doesn't make her any less guilty because at some point she did the right thing would have been to stand with me. And, and that wasn't her choice. So here she is crying to me.   - Liesel Mertes Right, which is the added pressure of then you needing to respond to the emotional need in the midst of your own sadness, right?   - Cari Hahn So. Big mess in this season and a lot of pain from the work,   - Liesel Mertes I'm sorry for that. It just sounds awful.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return to Cari’s story in just a moment.  2021 finds us immersed in challenges.  And it is hard to know if you are supporting the mental health of your people.  This is where my company (and the podcast sponsor) Handle with Care Consulting can help.  We offer workshops, coaching, and keyontes to help you build a culture of care.  Because empathy isn’t a personality trait, it is a set of skills that can be learned.  Let us help.   MUSCIAL TRANSITON   - Liesel Mertes As you think back on things that people said or did, and there are other things that you would say to people who are watching someone who has breast cancer like this is just dumb. Don't ever do this.   - Cari Hahn Yeah, I mean, people tend to you know, it's funny because when you have cancer, you know, it's obviously opens up this communication and it never fails.   - Cari Hahn How many people tell you that someone I know had cancer and they died? If it always goes to that? And it's almost comical because I like to say that. But people say that a lot. A lot more than you think they'll say. Oh, well, she be that the first. And then I came back and she died. So there's a lot of it, really. And you have to laugh about I mean, that's what I do.   - Cari Hahn I have to laugh sometimes painful things, because that's how I get through them and deal with them. But a lot of people, surprisingly, will tell you about that.   - Cari Hahn And actually, not long ago, my daughter was at the farmer's market with me for my business. And someone came up and she's like, oh, well, oh, well, my friend had cancer, but hers was back and it's Terminal four and she walked away. I looked at Grace, my daughter, and we both just felt we both were laughing because.   - Cari Hahn Grace, why does everyone telling you about everyone who died? I don't know. And I said it's a really great thing for people to talk about.   - Cari Hahn The other thing that I think that I think it's really insensitive when people talk about their loss not being a very big deal with hair loss. And, you know, at the time it was fine because I knew it was in an effort to save my life. When I lost my hair, but I just think sometimes that's a really good thing to bring up with people who are going through cancer.   - Cari Hahn I think you can talk to them and say, how are you doing all of that? Like a person going through cancer talked about it. But I think when people minimize it and say it's just hair grow back. It is just hair and it will grow back, and I was taking my life, but unless you are me sitting in my shoes, you really don't deserve to have that conversation. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and would potentially forces you to have to stuff any unpleasant feelings that you might be having about your hand? I guess I can't mention that because.   - Cari Hahn Yeah, it is just there now. Yeah. I mean, it's like I mean, I would say those two things are probably the things that I think a lot of people. Right. And I think sometimes too. And again, you probably realize this was what I think people in general don't like to talk about unpleasant things and they don't like to be uncomfortable.   - Cari Hahn And so you can tell the people that come in the room that it's just it's so uncomfortable for them. It's not uncomfortable for me. I mean, I have a plane going off my car. I mean, that's just that's what it was. But there are people that it's so uncomfortable they don't know what to say or do. So they just kind of they kind of avoid, if you like, the play.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, and I imagine there are very physical markers in some ways in a journey with cancer like surgery, there's chemo, then there is the landscape of like continuing monitoring appointments. What has this like? It's not the immediate stage of constant intervention, but some of the pervasive uncertainty of wait and see.   I asked Cari about the on-going journey with cancer, the yearly scans to make sure that the cancer has not returned.  She talked about the uncertainty and the waiting, and I wondered what has been helping her.   - Cari Hahn If it's hard, if I do, I do a lot of yoga. And that has been a huge source of just helping you through this life that I have of uncertainty and waiting. And when I first it was shortly after the job when I reached out to my friend John, I called them and I'm like, Don, I'm I'm struggling with everything right now. And at that point, he said they say that women who try to do yoga really, really well in front of survivorship.   - Cari Hahn And I have done a couple of years before that and it was hot yoga. And I remember I was miserable. My eyeballs were sweating. I'm like, this is terrible. I absolutely hated it. OK, so he's like, try yoga. And I am willing to try. So that day I now I want to yoga. I was not hot yoga practice one hundred plus degrees and it was an hour and a half. That's what I am not enough that I packed up because I really couldn't.   - Cari Hahn But I loved every minute of it for me.   - Cari Hahn I enjoy the last six of the toxins, all of it leaving my body with all that sweat and all of that I love because just to be able to be in a quiet room for me, do that.   Cari Hahn And I recommend that for a lot of breast cancer patients that they would try this.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's a great recommendation. Well, it's here in that I think sometimes there's an outpouring of support in the immediacy after diagnosis treatment, and it sounds like that was congruent with your story. But I'm reminded, even as you talk like it's I don't know if lifelong is the right word, but it's it's like a long game getting a lot of these inflection points of uncertainty and waiting and second guessing like the landscape has changed for you now and again, you know, people who are young that are destined to be more aggressive.   - Cari Hahn So, know, I have I have a few friends right now that are that have stage four. They have metastatic breast cancer.   - Cari Hahn And that's heartbreaking to have to see that and to know that every day they still are getting help and they are fighting and they are knowing that there is no cure for them and they're going to be in treatment the rest of the rest of their lives. And a lot of times they will get a metastatic diagnosis and typically live about two to three years.   - Cari Hahn What I will say is that the advancements in breast cancer with metastatic, you're seeing that longer now, which is which is incredible.   - Liesel Mertes Can I jump in? Because I realize I have heard that word. What does metastatic mean? Does it mean many locations?   - Cari Hahn So metastatic basically means that it came back it came back in an area like so if it was breast, it then traveled to the lungs and maybe traveled to the brain itself, to the bone, the liver. So it basically it's a location away from the breast. But when that happens, there is no cure for stage four metastatic breast cancer there. It's not a cure. So, again, typically, they say say you usually live for two to three years, which are diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer.   - Cari Hahn So and that that is the diagnosis that with early stage breast cancer, 30 percent of us are diagnosed with metastatic within a decade or two or three times.   - Liesel Mertes That's sobering.   - Cari Hahn It is. So what? For me, these animals are scary. But then there's also what I'll say is there's also the guilt that someone has to do the one in three. Right. And, you know, there when my scans come back clean, I I'm so relieved and I'm so I'm so grateful.   - Cari Hahn But then I have friends that walk alongside me as cancer survivors and they're doing that. And that batho battle is really hard because there is survivor guilt is hard. And I have a very deep level of empathy from being a survivor.   - Cari Hahn And so when that happens, I mean, it can I can cry for days because I'm just so heartbroken that it's not me, but it's.   - Cari Hahn Then why? Why is why? Because, again, I haven't gotten used to this stuff, but I have to go through those scans and I know how scary those things are that.   - Liesel Mertes Well, I I imagine that so much of these feelings in this connection with empathy and also, as you mentioned, your, your degree work as an undergraduate in some creative arts like you to Karma Candles. I would love for you to tell listeners about the work that you do.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me about Karma candles.   - Cari Hahn So when I when I finished my treatment, obviously, and then I, I didn't have a job and I'm like, what do I do? So I laid around in my bed and I cried for a few months and it was that didn't really serve me for obvious reasons. So I remember, you know, I finally learned that one day, look at me like Cari is like you're either going to be a victim of this or you're going to be a victor.   - Cari Hahn And I know you're not a victim, is not you've never been who you are. And it's like, I cannot wait to get out of that bed, but I really I really strongly enough. And when I was getting up, I would get up on the floor, get home, and I would ask with things are fine, but I love you. But I would say gift for them. And then I get up again and it's all over.   - Cari Hahn And so this is about four months, probably three months. And I I took the girls to the mall one day, and they really love the Anthropology candle and I bought him a candle.   - Cari Hahn And then I thought to myself that I can make a candle because I've always been a creative person. So my my degree was in art therapy. My mother is an interior design assistant, interior design. And I come from a family of people that to like to create.   - Cari Hahn And I started eating and Googling how to how to make candles.   - Cari Hahn And I also want to create products around me, too. And when I started realizing what was in a lot of products that you buy from the store, I was trying to reduce the toxins that I use in my house and on my body. And so I started making the candles with the friends and it was just a hobby. And it was all so I, I then for a period of time, work for a hospital foundation, raising money for an infusion center.   - Cari Hahn And I thought, well, that maybe would be really helpful and maybe that would be healing. And then I did it for almost a year, but it really wasn't because it was a hospital foundation. So I'm still in the hospital. I'm from the hospital is still kind of a scary place and overwhelming place.   - Cari Hahn So it was last May the night that Matt and I decided that I had much help with the candles. And he's like, you know, why don't you make it full time? And so we decided to make it full time. And then all that I do like candles and candles when I when I make them that I am lighting up the dark, the dark places of life. And I and I do believe that.   - Cari Hahn And then when I when I hear feedback from people, especially people who are going through a hard time and they tell me what happened to them during our time, I ever denied that I would be.   - Cari Hahn And then I ended up designing some jewelry and certainly jewelry, because again, when I was in my battle, I never really found anything that I felt that I was going through. So there's a couple of words. I have I have warrior and I have faith and I have hope and I have that. And for me, I have worn my bad ass necklace this entire month of October of I fundraise because October is a big month that I read my work with a lot of nonprofit.   - Cari Hahn And I hear some hard news and I see things that I do in my day to day anyway. I do those things, but especially in October, it's really tough and I love those. And I have women that are sitting there giving their chemotherapy and delivering and I'm so grateful that I get to be a part of that with them. And that that's kind of a badge of honor.   - Cari Hahn Yeah, there there's some lovely pieces and I have been the beneficiary of receiving some of your candles and some we just burned through to the very end of the last one there in some beautiful.   - Liesel Mertes Containers smell great. They do not give my people headaches, which oftentimes happens in Bodyworks candles. I will we'll have a link in the show notes. There are some physical places that they can get them here in central Indiana where some of those places.   - Cari Hahn Yeah, so I have a handful of local retail defeat factories.   - Cari Hahn So I am in Denver from Tucson, down from Carmel. I am coming in from all the sisters in Indianapolis.   - Cari Hahn I am at Cloud9, which is a day spa. So I have a handful of retailers. Oh, I am for getting back to the studio here with my candles. They're phenomenal and a lot of a lot of the places that are Women-Owned too, and they're local. And I'm always about people going to support those places, which is great. So one of the things about the is that the headache. So they're laugh so as I can possibly make a film and then all of my fragrance with something called phthalate free.   - Cari Hahn So we basically don't have any of the chemical plasticizers in them. So we're just going to burn their cotton because again, I want I want the face that people are and I want to be is clean and non-toxic.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, they're they're lovely candles, you should check them out. Cari, I appreciate you opening up your story today. Was there anything that you would really like to add that you didn't get a chance to say?   - Cari Hahn No, I thank you for one thing that I didn't probably say is a phenomenal book. When I was diagnosed with someone gave me a call. There is No place like Hope. You can get it on Amazon. I really, really recommend that it was written by someone. I think he was a prosecutor, but I love it. I love that. It's a really easy book to read that would fill my great name to vomit a little bit that that book still goes with me to appointments for sure.   - Cari Hahn And when I'm going through, if it's if I have a scan, I grab that book and I always recommend that to people who are newly diagnosed. And I recommend to you that their family members have it. I think even regardless of what you know, in the beginning of this, I was so fearful of the diagnosis. But really, the treatment is not worse than the disease. You want to fight it regardless, even if it's even with terminal cancer.   - Cari Hahn I really still believe there and I really still believe you can still fight. You know, you've got to do it in your mind. But I think you can do it. And that's why I love a book like that, because I think to read it and I have to surround yourself with positive things and positive people to make the outcomes better when you're going through. Thank you for that recommendation.   - Liesel Mertes I will also link that in the show notes. Yes. Well, Cari, thank you so much for your time.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Cari: If you know someone that is living with cancer, resist the urge to tell them all about the people you know that have died of cancer.Cari heard these statements a lot.  In my trainings, I talk about the empathy avatar of Commiserating Candace, she (or he) always has a sad story to share.  This sharing hijacks the story of the person who is currently suffering.  Don’t be a Commiserating Candace If you are an employer or a manager of someone who is living through cancer, what support systems do you have in place for once the chemo is done?Cari talked about being well-supported initially, pushing through all of the appoitnments etc.  But her body was exhausted on the other side and, when she asked for flexibility, her workplace was unwilling to shift.  Do you have policies in place for the long-game, designed to accommodate the aftermath of bodily stress that happens post-treatment? Breast continues to influence the lives of survivors.There is the stress of wondering if the cancer will manifest again, the bodily exhaustion, and the survivor’s guilt.  If you are a friend or a coworker, continue to check-in with the survivors you know, especially once the chemo is done.  They still need and will appreciate your support on this long journey.   Learn more about Karma Candles at www.karmacandlesandkinds.com    

- Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I have no problem having everybody know that I had COVID. I don't I don't feel I don't feel that that is a reason for shame. After all, we are literally in the midst of a global pandemic and tens of millions of people have this and often through no fault of their own.   INTRO   Today, we talk about leadership and COVID, how the virus gives us a chance to model a different openness and acceptance-without-judgment and how throw-away comments can trigger cycles of shame and judgment.  My guest today is Arwen Widmer-Bobyk, She is Canadian, living in Los Angeles on assignment with the Canadian government as the Consul for Political, Economic, and Public Affairs at the Consulate General in Los Angeles.    I first met Arwen in that most 2020 of ways:  over a Zoom call.  I was kicking off a year of intentional trainings, teaching about empathy in relation to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for the North American Candian MIssions. Arwen was part of an organizing task-force.  She was a warm smile and lots of red hair on the other side of the screen.  A few weeks later, Arwen was diagnosed with COVID, the first person in her consulate to get the virus.    Her story is one of poor responses, missing email links, uncertainty, and ill-considered comfort.  Yet, through it all, Arwen has seen the diagnosis as a tremendous leadership opportunity, to model a different way of engaging the virus.  Her perspective has take-aways for leaders everywhere.   But first, a little bit more about Arwen.       - Liesel Mertes Tell me about the origins of your name and like the Arwen.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Oh, so my name has become legendary even within my organization in which I work, which is Global Affairs Canada. So my name are when comes from the book The Lord of the Rings. When my mom was pregnant back in the mid 70s, she was reading The Lord of the Rings and she kind of had this feeling that she wanted to name her daughter after an elven princess.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so she chose ah. When the story at work, though, goes that there's a very, very senior manager in my organization who is actually now an adviser to the prime minister. And we were on a work together a few years ago. And he asked me he asked me, ah, when you know such an interesting name, do you have any siblings?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And I said, Yeah, I have a younger sister. And he's like, Oh, does she have an interesting name, too? And I said, Well, no, I think my parents kind of gave it all to me because her name is Rebecca Sarah. And he just thought that that was the funniest thing I've ever heard. And so he often tells that story like on national stages about how he had this colleague who had this great name and who was just Rebecca.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And my my middle name actually has a very, very funny story, too. So my middle name is Ganessa and Ganessa is spelled G-A-N-E-S-S-A and my mom always said to me, well, you know, so we had an elven princess as your first date. And, you know, your middle name is is the name of a Greek goddess, the remover of obstacles and the goddess of wisdom. And I was like as a young child, I thought that this was just the greatest thing ever.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And when I got older and the Internet became a thing, I kind of tried to, you know, look that up on Ask Jeeves and didn't I didn't come up with anything else. I was like just kind of weird. And then when, when I was a brand new mother. So, I had just given birth to my eldest daughter.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And it was the first time I left the house without her kind of to go on my own after I think she was probably a month and a half old. I left her with my husband to go see a movie. And I saw Eat, Pray, Love. And I don't know if you remember in the movie, but it was really like quite an outsized role for the Hindu God, Ganesh and the remover of of the God of wisdom and the remover of obstacles.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And I just had this, like, crazy epiphany in the movie that my mom just misspelled my middle name and got three completely wrong.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I was like, oh, my goodness, that is a huge mistake. - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But I'm really glad my middle name isn't Ganesh. I like I'm kind of attached to Ganessa.   - Liesel Mertes The the epiphany moment, and I like it because it's resonant with me, I remember using Ask Jeeves and you have to be of a certain age to remember what that was like a player before the ascendancy of Google.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Yeah, I remember asking do use all the answers.  Where do he go? Where did he know you?   - Liesel Mertes He was the little guy that got smashed by the hegemon and just, you know, wandered off.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk He's probably in reformism, but I'm sure he is.   - Liesel Mertes Well, he's in the hospitality industry, so maybe he's indefinitely furloughed.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Good point.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit. I think that you mentioned in your bio that you married your college sweetheart. Is that correct? Or did you meet in the in the consular affairs?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So my husband is also a foreign service officer.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But indeed, we did meet the first day of class in our master's program, and it was a tiny little program for total international affairs nerds. We were studying international political economy, which is like, if you know, that has its origins in Marx or something like and there were eight of us in the class. And so I had moved from Vancouver to Ottawa. He had moved from Chicago to Ottawa to do this very niche program.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And I looked across the seminar table at home and I was like, Harvard, you know, interesting guy. And then I saw him later in the tunnels. And Carleton University in Ottawa is famous for its underground tunnels because the the climate is just so inhospitable that they needed to connect all the all the classrooms and all of the buildings, underground tunnels. So I saw him in the tunnel and I was like, yep, that's the one.   - Liesel Mertes So I knew really I knew that knowing this or did it take him awhile?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk It took him about twenty-four hours, the longest twenty-four hours of my life.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But no it was, it was so interesting because we were together and that was so that was twenty, twenty two years ago almost.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And we were together within the first week and all of our classmates just assumed that we had like relocated from different sides of the continent to finally be together.   - Liesel Mertes Well, you would get settled with one another.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Yeah. So we have been ever since and we've been we've lived many different places in the world and and we continue to to be the ultimate partners.   Arwen has worked for Global Affairs Canada for almost 14 years.  Like the US Foreign Service, it is a very rotational job, with moves every few years.  She started out in the Privy Council, supporting the Prime Minister, and is now in Los Angeles.  She moved ahead of her family to the new posting, before COVID hit.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk For the first 10 months I was actually here on my own, given the kind of issues with travel in the pandemic and my daughter is finishing their their school year. And then we were separated for longer than we had planned. But finally, my family is here in Los Angeles with me.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk We've been working since March remotely. So I have a small team that manages some really key files, political relationship with our territory, which covers Southern California, Arizona and Nevada, economics, security, defense, climate change, environment.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And then a big one for my team is all of our. Full cooperation with Hollywood and the connections between our cultural industries in Canada and and this mega media entertainment epicenter, so that's that's what I do.   - Liesel Mertes That sounds fascinating. So are you. Is your office like being consulted as they are portraying Canadians in films? Are you fact checking or are you resourcing? I'm intrigued by this.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So our role when it comes to cultural, cultural connections between the two countries is really to celebrate Canada's achievements in in the cultural industries. So everything from fine art to film to music to television and to make the connections and be a platform for making sure that Canadian artists and creators are able to access who they need to access in in Hollywood in particular.   Arwen particularly looks at her role through the lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion.  She has developed curriculum to incorporate women’s voices more robustly.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And the cultural industries, of course, is a target rich environment for expanding access for diverse creators from Canada into Hollywood. And so we're really putting a huge emphasis on highlighting to American producers and buyers the kind of rich tapestry of talent in Canada, which is incredibly diverse and inclusive.   - Liesel Mertes So I hear when you talk about what this last year has been, I hear a number of disruptive life events that in the language that I use within my consulting, you had a move, you had time without your family. This was all in the midst of being in a new city and in a new pandemic for everyone.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me about how some of those stresses and upheavals were percolating leading up to what we're going to talk about a little bit later, which was your COVID diagnosis as well.   - Liesel Mertes But even preceding that, it seemed like there were a lot of ups and downs in your year.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Definitely. It's been it's been a year of of the sense that I've that I've had a lot of the time, both personally and professionally, is just pushing a big boulder up a hill.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And the weight of the responsibility for me to to kind of manage getting my family here, eventually working through my department's H.R. processes and relocation processes and, you know, determining when it was safe to have them come from Ottawa to to Los Angeles and and, you know, trying to maintain connection with my two daughters who were also experiencing the stress of not being in school and going through kind of the newness of what this pandemic meant.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And then, you know, also maintaining connection with my husband, who was single parenting for 10 months while I was here and managing the girls and their.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Their stress and their worry about me being here by myself and, you know, the pandemic situation in Los Angeles has been not great from the very beginning. And so, you know that it was definitely a challenging year.   - Liesel Mertes And I know you have a parent, two girls, who are know as the parent of my own children who are close to your ages. I have a 13 year old and an 11 year old. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes It can be kind of an all hands on deck time. And to be doing that from a distance and managing, you know, their schedules and people in their own uncertainty. I hear how that could feel really complex in the midst of just a new job and a new city.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Absolutely. And also managing remotely a team for the first time and, you know, keeping their motivation up and transitioning from a very in person type of work that we do, which is creating relationships and networks to a fully virtual maintaining virtual relationships and networks and still having the the pressures to produce and perform and promote and protect Canadian interests, even amidst this pandemic.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So when you put it that way, Liesel. Yeah, it's it's been a year. It's been a year.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit about when you got your COVID diagnosis.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Sure. So just for background, I'm the first person in the consulate to have a positive COVID diagnosis. So I was the the vanguard and the groundbreaker in that it happened the week of the election.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And of course, you can imagine in my position, the election was kind of a big deal. So we had a lot of pressure to do reporting and analysis. And then there was also the the concern about the potential civil unrest, which has been going on really since George Floyd's murder here in Los Angeles on a major urban center.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So that even more top of mind.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Yeah, so it was that week and it was the Thursday. And I was having a meeting and, you know, typical Zoom meeting. I try to avoid looking at myself in those meetings because it's just so weird. I'm sure that, I'm sure the listeners can relate. It's just very strange to be having a meeting, but also seeing yourself talk. But I did notice out of the corner of my eye that I looked white as a sheet like I did not look well.   Arwen made is through the next important meeting with the Canadian Olympic Committee.  But when she shut her laptop, she was exhausted.    - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And I thought, I hope I don't like the way this feels, just feels very strange, so I immediately texted my boss, the consul general, and I said, you know, I am not feeling well.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I am going to schedule a COVID test. It's funny how my brain kind of seemed to just tell me that this was not, you know, just tiredness. This was not maybe I you know, I was like, I don't even think that this is like a cold or flu. I'm also a person who who almost never gets sick. So I hadn't taken a sick day before this in well over a year.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So I, I told my family, you know, I'm not feeling great. I'm going to put myself in in my bedroom and have a rest. And then I had a COVID test the next day.   She was feverish and nauseous through the night.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So the two of us went to to get a COVID test at Dodgers Stadium. And I have to say that L.A. County really, really knows by this time how to manage large volumes of people getting tested. So is quite, quite efficient.   - Liesel Mertes Can I interrupt for a second? Are you feeling anxious at this moment? Is there a sense of dread? Are you taking just taking the appropriate steps and kind of on autopilot or like what's what's the swirl for you? I think that. There was a, there was a sense of almost disbelief that this was happening to me at that time, you know, I had gone, what, nine months of the pandemic without getting sick? You know, we were starting to hear that the vaccine was going to be available relatively imminently. I had felt just maybe a few days prior to that, that, wow, we did it. Nobody in my family got sick. That's fantastic.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And then and then to start getting sick, I was like, wow. So there was a little disbelief that there was concern. And really, right from the beginning, my biggest concern was not myself, but the health of my husband and my girls, particularly my daughters, because.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk My youngest daughter has a lot of food allergies, so her immune system is is kind of wonky to begin with, and then my older daughter has juvenile arthritis. So, again, an autoimmune disorder. And so I was very much mostly concerned about them.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I'm relatively young, although I did refer to Ask Jeeves, but I'm quite healthy.   - Liesel Mertes And and so I, too, am relatively young. And I know about ask, do you say you are relatively young. Exactly. And so and then and then, you know, as a as a parent you start thinking about and your mind goes down these rabbit holes of OK, well if I'm sick and my husband's also sick, who's going to take care of the girls? Actually, I came to the realization very quickly that the girls would be taking care of us and they're very, very OK with that.   Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But, you know, you do start to to go down those kind of anxiety holes of, you know, what happens if I get really sick. Right.   - Liesel Mertes And so also the complexity of parents in the midst of a pandemic at whatever stage, I mean, you're both aware of your own health and how it affects your work. But there are these people that you're responsible for and it's it's it's it's own.   - Liesel Mertes It's not easier, but it's a it's a luxury that parents don't really have to just focus singularly on their own, on their own health parents or just people with partners, other people in the house.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Absolutely. So so that happened. I was pretty much kind of laid out physically and then so that was a Friday, Saturday morning. I get a text from L.A. County and it's actually my husband's results. And I click on the link and it says Negative. And I was like, wow, what an incredible relief. A few minutes later, I so so I guess I would talk to him and I said, you know, you're negative. This is really exciting.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I'm sure I am, too. You know, I went into that phase of kind of denial, you know, I guess this isn't COVID. I guess I was just kind of jumping to conclusions and, you know, I'm sure I'm fine, too. So, you know, dodged that bullet, so to speak. And then I get another text about five minutes later and the link doesn't work.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk It's it's a broken link. And and so that was just incredibly frustrating to me. So, you know, I emailed their tech support ways to deal with tech support.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Women's rights waited for hours. Finally, they sent me a new one and the result was positive. And at that moment, I remember like my stomach, my stomach just sank. It was when it was then when I was feeling sick and really tired and then realizing that this was not going to be a quick road to recovery, likely that, you know, it kind of just very much hit me. And so I kind of took a few minutes to to let it sink in a little bit.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And then I went into, OK, now I have a whole bunch of things to do.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Being of a foreign diplomat here, I had responsibilities that I had to execute in terms of informing my boss about my diagnosis, but also informing our mission security officer who who deals with all of the kind of emergency management stuff.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And at that point, I was thinking solely about any potential exposure to my colleagues that I may have inadvertently perpetuated.   Luckily, Arwen did most of her work remotely.  She would only pop into the office occasionally.  Colleagues were notified.    - Liesel Mertes What what kinds of things were people saying or doing that made you feel well supported in the midst of all of this?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So it's very interesting because we plan and we plan and we plan for emergency situations and we think we know how we're going to respond and we know how we should respond.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But the interesting thing for me was that when you have it all written down on paper, the first thing and no one is not kind of, my goodness, how are you feeling? You know, it is it is kind of going directly into the kind of duty of care. Mode, as I like to call it, and so it's the primary responsibility of duty of care is to make sure everybody is safe, so, so safe from a physical perspective rather than safe from an emotional perspective. For example.   - Liesel Mertes So step one in the. That makes total sense of just this, the first step is process, not necessarily guidance in how to interact in this potentially very freighted, uncertain person on the other side who are dealing with a really complex, unknown disease. You don't really script out how to meet that person in that moment necessarily.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Precisely, which I hope to change soon. But for me, it was very interesting. So. The first question is always, where do you think you got this, like that's the most important question ever, you know, and I think I read a statistic later on that I think somewhere north of 70 percent of people have no idea where they've actually contracted COVID. For me, I was extremely careful, have been for the previous 10 months all through wearing a mask at all times in public. And I still I still caught it probably in the elevator somewhere with somebody who wasn't wearing a mask, but.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk You know, for me, that question triggered and I and I received that question from almost every single person that I encountered and told the question, triggered shame, like the answer that that was expected was, oh, well, that that one time where I was just, you know, floating all of the rules and and, you know, in an indoor restaurant, breathing in as much virus as I could, you know.   - Liesel Mertes Some Friday night where I said, screw it, I'm doing whatever I want.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Exactly. You know, so so that was that was interesting. My work was excellent in in kind of putting together the steps that were needed to take to notify anyone who may have been in contact with me. Thankfully, everyone was negative.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But then I learned a little later on after I talked to the contact tracers in L.A. County that really they're most concerned and really exclusively concerned with only the people who you had been in contact with 48 hours prior to the onset of symptoms.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And for me, that was only my family. So it was kind of out of an abundance of caution that my workplace initially was told, but I very quickly realized that it was an incredible opportunity for leadership, for me to   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more here.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So to destigmatize this, I felt very, very severe stigma about this, this diagnosis, and I really wasn't expecting that.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I asked my boss to...   - Liesel Mertes Can I ask you a little bit more about that, because it seems it seems really important. So there, I imagine there's the the shame and the stigma of that first question, that sense of suspicion of like your irresponsibility or what you've done.   - Liesel Mertes What are some other ways that that stigma was being expressed and perceived by you?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So on the personal level. My I. I soon found out that my daughter had my oldest daughter had told her friends at school that I was positive. So within the first 48 hours they all knew. And of course, as a mom of a teenager, we thought, you know, how quickly word can get can get around. So I received an email from the parent of one of one of the girls. And remember, these are very, very new relationships for our family.   We had just moved to L.A. The girls had just started virtual school in September. And so very much brand new relationships and still establishing, you know, trust and and familiarity, I guess.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so the the email I received was just a visceral reaction to potentially having exposed. The family of this girl to COVID now, I had not been in contact with them for over two weeks and Grace hadn't been in contact with them for 10 days. And so it never even occurred to me to notify all of the families that, you know, I had seen in the previous three months, you know, but I really quickly learned that the reaction was very much based in fear, in the unknown of this disease, but also the unknown of the timeline.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I mean, teenagers are not really precise when it comes to kind of delineating the exact timeline of, you know, when their parents get sick.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I just remember feeling intense kind of sorrow and shame and regret for not having informed these families, even though I was very sick at the time, I felt. Regret for not having thought through all of the potential people who may be afraid of my diagnosis, which seems very strange to me to say now, but it was it was just kind of a gut punch, so to speak. The email had used words like betrayal of trust, of, you know, putting our lives in danger.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so it was quite dramatic email, to be totally honest. But but I knew that it was just all very much fear based. And so I put my my mind I put myself into her shoes. And I could very much imagine, you know, a mother's instinct to protect her family. And and so I repaired the relationship. I wrote back and I and I and I copied all of the parents of the the very small study pod of four girls.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But I just kind of explained and I and the first sentence of my email, so you'd be proud of me was I can imagine how scary this is for you. Let me walk you through the timeline to reassure you.   - Liesel Mertes I am proud of you, not my pride. You know, it is the delineating factor, but, you know, one of the reasons that I really wanted when I first heard your story and just the high level of it to have you as a guest, because I just want to step back.   - Liesel Mertes That takes so much choosing towards empathy and choosing towards and I want to circle back. You began to say, you know, a leadership opportunity because, I mean, how how complex and hard is that like you were you're very sick at that moment. Like you feel terrible.   - Liesel Mertes It's this new relationship like there you're you know, the parents of your daughter, you know, that's just complex of like it's not like things are well known relationships.   - Liesel Mertes And you could feel attacked, you could feel defensive. You could feel like lashing out and saying, hey, you're not caring for me at all.   - Liesel Mertes Like I'm feverish and in bed. But to be able to process those things and still respond in a way that sees another person's emotion. Yeah, there's a lot of steps to actually executing on that maturity. To get to that point.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk It was really valuable. And I kept thinking about it. And, you know, I'm I'm one of those cheer, Cheryl. So I guess you could say in that I always look for a silver lining and no one does that apply to more than the situations that I find myself in. So you'll never hear me saying, at least to anyone, except for maybe myself. And so I was looking for the silver linings to this. And personal growth has certainly been one of those intentionality as well in the relationships that I have professionally, personally.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Another excellent silver lining. And keep going. Sorry. No, no, it's OK. So, you know, through through that very open, authentic and essentially raw message to to the other parents, I think that I, I there was leapfrogging happening. I was able to establish more trust than, you know, just 10 months of, you know, banal dialogue, you know, normal parental dialogue. Could have could have possibly established.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We’ll return to Arwen’s interview in a moment.  This episode is sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting, my company.  The world went sideways in 2020 and it is hard to know if your people are feeling supported and engaged amidst all the challenges.  Empathy is THE leadership skill for our times, and Handle with Care Consulting can help build this skill into your people and processes.  Contact Handle with Care Consulting for coaching, keynotes, and certificate programs to create cultures of care.  And now, back to Arwen…   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I have no problem having everybody know that I had COVID. I don't I don't feel I don't feel that that is a reason for shame.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk After all, we are literally in the midst of a global pandemic and tens of millions of people have this and often through no fault of their own.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, there's the shame and fear. Response cycles, though, are so powerful. You know, it just it puts us in such a defensive crouch. And you know what? What a true awareness that you're able to have of looking and seeing all these people are in their own fear cycle that is just causing them to act so defensively. And it's it's a good thing to tuck away to to be aware, like, oh, yes, I could suddenly be triggered to feel very concerned just about my own safety and things like that.   - Liesel Mertes But how will that actually inhibit my response? And and that comes through to someone you're talking to, like, oh, you, you know, are only thinking about yourself right now instead of having any care for me, which I imagine, as you said, is a tremendous opportunity, as you were the first within your organization to get this diagnosis.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me some about you mentioned using it as a leadership opportunity and wanting to cultivate and model something different. What things are you pulling forward that you're wanting to incorporate in kind of a different way of approaching people who get covered?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So I think like most large organizations, medical information, of course, is generally very confidential in a work setting. And so one of the initial first reactions of my organization was we must keep this super confidential. We have to keep your identity confidential. We can't tell anybody it was you.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk For me, that just felt totally wrong because I felt that that that lack of transparency, even if it was well-meaning and meant to protect me, would possibly lead to even more fear.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk For example, imagine I was one of the workers who who had been in the office and I was told that someone has COVID and that you may have been in contact with them and therefore you should get tested. I can imagine the amount of fear.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk That that would instill in someone, because you don't there's no certainty, right, you don't know if you don't know who this person was, maybe I actually only saw one person in the office when I went. And so the other 12 that or eight that would have been told to go get tested where I know we're at no risk whatsoever.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I asked, I asked my my boss to include in his message to all staff that it was me that was diagnosed and that I felt provided an opportunity.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk To show that it is absolutely OK to disclose your diagnosis in the workplace in order to keep your colleagues safe in order, there's no reprisal. I wasn't sent home to Canada because I got COVID, which was something I was actually worried about.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And we can talk about that as well. But for me, it was an opportunity to destigmatize the diagnosis, to take away the shame, to not hide something that really, really didn't need to be hidden. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that that that's a powerful signaling in that way. You mentioned an apprehension that you had. Tell me a little bit more about that.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Sure. So, you know, on the back end of things, we have a giant organization of of 15,000 or so employees spread across the world. So the background is that about a thousand of them, I think, were repatriated home to Canada due to their own health risks or the particular health infrastructure of the countries to which they were accredited. So that happened in the spring.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And when, when I was diagnosed, I texted a very, very dear colleague of mine who is still based in Ottawa and told him about my diagnosis. And he said he was somebody who still works in the in my former team in the North America Advocacy Division. And he said, ah, what can I tell the rest of the team? And I said, absolutely, 100 percent. And so he did. And then I got an email from my former director, so my former boss.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And he said, OK, well, there are some official things we need to do now are when I need to inform officially the medical infrastructure of global affairs. And so he's very sweet. He said they're very well meaning are when they're there, they can be. I've heard that they can be a little intense, but they're extremely well meaning.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I was I hadn't even really thought at that point. Of what the potential implications were for the duration of my posting, the duration of my assignment here is should I have gotten really sick? And so I kind of sat in that fear for. A little while, I would say about 15 minutes, talk to my husband, I was asking questions like, well, what if I recalled what if I get really, really sick? And, you know, health care here in the United States is very expensive.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk What if they'd rather treat me in Canada? What happens if I go home and you guys stay here? And so there are all of these questions in my mind as I waited for that official notification of of you have now been assigned a file, so to speak.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And that notification came. A lot of people were copied on it. And the wonderful thing was that employee assistance program was copied on it. They reached out to me separately after and said, if you need any support, if your family needs any support, if you have questions, if you have concerns, reach out.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But also the kind of the chief medical officer of global affairs was copied and he was the one who then continued to follow me and to be in dialogue with me on a daily basis for the for the next month and. That having that support and that expertise and that person who I could ask medical questions of was was very, very helpful. I'm kind of a medical nerd myself. So if it wasn't political science, I probably would have been a surgeon.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so I very quickly kind of got up to speed about what I needed to do to give him the information he needed to assess my condition. And so I ordered myself an oximeter the next day and started measuring my my my blood oxygen levels. And that's kind of key for COVID. And that was something that helped him monitor my situation. At one point, and COVID is, of course, different for everyone, and I know that some of your listeners are dealing with diagnoses themselves, perhaps, or those of their family or friends.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And it's very different for everyone.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk For me, it really went in waves. And so. I would feel terrible for a few days and then I would rest and I would start to feel better and then I would overexert myself and then I would feel terrible again.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And at one point, my my oxygen levels were really, really not good. And the chief medical officer said, you know, Arwen, if if you don't rest and if you don't really, really take this seriously, I'm going to be ordering a medevac for you and you're going to be coming home to Canada.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And that was really the thing that scared me into. Resting, taking it seriously, and the realization that if I didn't, this could be a condition that I would have to deal with for a lot longer than I would have liked.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear I hear so many threads in the midst of that that are important, I hear the communication and the cooperation, whether that was from the medical staff or the EAP, of being able to really reach out to you on a couple of different fronts, to put it to deal with some of the fears that might come up to have information going back and forth here, the importance of rest.   - Liesel Mertes I also hear just harkening back to as you're dealing with like emails from your daughter's friend group, I'm thinking there's always so much going on that we don't know, you know, behind the scenes. Like they don't know that you're not only sick, but you're dealing with apprehensions as to whether or not you're going to have to be taken back to a different country. And how is this going to affect the continuity of your posting and all of your family situation?   - Liesel Mertes And that's just your particular complexity. But everybody's story has their own complexity as to how the diagnosis is playing out with their financial situation or their health care plan or their partner or their aging parents. And I I hope that it gives people more of a sense of pause before they just rush into an interaction. So there could be like there's the stress I know, which is a sickness. And then there are probably a dozen ancillary stresses that are attached to this that I don't know about.   - Liesel Mertes And I want to tread graciously and carefully because there could be a lot going on that I have no idea about.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Exactly. And it's just kind of layer upon layer. And then I have so much empathy for. People who are going through this and who are also, you know, high functioning professionals or in fact even, you know, like a grocery store clerk, the people who who can't take the time they need to get better because of financial considerations or professional considerations or family considerations. And I mean, you know, I'm very lucky that I had plenty of sick leave thanked.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But at the same time, this is an incredibly busy time for my for my program. And so prioritizing my health over the hundreds of emails that were flooding my inbox on a daily basis was really, really, really hard. And I was my worst enemy. I mean, I had a lot of support from my boss to to to disconnect, but I you know, I don't have any backup at work either. So it's it is it is not easy.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And and if you see someone who's just kind of. Struggling with it know that there are many, many angles of pressure happening at any given time.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned, you know, needing to quarantine within your house burns that loomed large about the health of your children or your husband.   - Liesel Mertes What what is that like, the isolation or the uncertainty within your home? Are you having to have people bring you food? Like what is the life of quarantining within your house look like?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So absolutely. I was kind of at the at the whim of my my family to bring me food. Thankfully, they're very good at that after having been doing that for 10 months on their own anyway in Canada. But I was kind of isolated in my bedroom with a bathroom attached. I didn't leave that room at all. My husband generally would be the one to put the plate by the door. We'd all have masks on. He'd leave, I'd go get the plate, I'd eat, put the plate back.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk It was kind of like a bit like being in prison, actually in your own house. Yeah.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Yes, a bit like a prison, but maybe friendlier people that come by your door each day and better bathrooms.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk But I definitely went through many series on Netflix and I am fully caught up on the Queen's Gambit and what I would recommend highly recommend to anyone. It's a great, great piece of television. But there were there were times when when I felt really, really ill that.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I just kind of felt miserable, and I think the isolation made it a bit worse. And then there were the times that I felt more energetic and that was also really frustrating to, I think, one of the most heartbreaking moments for me, though, of over those two weeks of being isolated was just seeing my youngest daughter's face 12 feet away from me and and just knowing how much she just wanted to hug me. I think in follow up conversations after, you know, we've all been cleared and healthy talking to my girls about.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Their feelings when I was sick has been very illuminating for me because they were very worried. They were worried that I would get sicker and sicker and they were probably even worried about my mortality at times because this is an unpredictable disease that attacks all sorts of different systems within our bodies.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And so and and honestly, I think this is the first time I've ever been confronted with my mortality from a kind of a sickness perspective. And so it's it's hard on it's hard on those who love us to. - Liesel Mertes Yeah. You you've mentioned it throughout the episode, but just to keep you up to make sure we didn't miss anything. What would you say to someone who's listening and perhaps over the next couple of weeks they are going to interact with someone, whether that's in their family or their friend group who had a COVID diagnosis? I always ask on this podcast,   - Liesel Mertes What are things that you would say, don't do this like this, don't do this. This will be bad.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk So the number one thing that I think I alluded to it before is don't let your first question be. Where do you think you got it? Because rarely is that actually a meaningful question, I would suggest instead that your first response be how are you feeling?   - Liesel Mertes And on the positive side, what were things that you experienced that you would say this was so meaningful, whether it was in support of you or people who supported your wider family in the midst of that, what would you recommend to people who want to show care?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Well, interestingly, I've never been a fan of sending or receiving flowers. I find them so temporal and yet so expensive at the same time that it's never been my go to. But I have to say, being stuck in a room by yourself, having a beautiful bouquet of flowers or forms of flowers was just this wonderful visual kind of place. I could rest my eyes and concentrate on some beauty. And so interestingly, I would suggest flowers. I totally lost my taste buds for four weeks, so food would have been completely wasted on me.   - Liesel Mertes So no chocolates does make you more accepting of anyone who has to cook for you, though. You can just be thankful for whatever you gave me. Absolutely.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Normally I love hot dogs, but this one didn't taste like anything but from an emotional standpoint.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk The daily check ins, I received text messages from dozens of people a day checking in on me, and even if I didn't respond back right away, I would get another one the next day checking in on me. And that was very, very impactful for me. It meant to me that people were thinking about me, that they were wishing me well. I took a lot of the energy and I I accepted the responsibility of finally resting enough to get better because a lot of people were really concerned across the whole world.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk And and that was very, very impactful and very special. So it only takes, what, 10 seconds to send a text to somebody, but it can really make a big difference. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Is there anything else that you would like to add that you didn't get a chance to say in the course of the interview?   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk I think that, ironically, I'm really, really, really happy that it was me that got COVID in my social and professional network because I. I wouldn't have wanted anyone who didn't have the kind of agency that I have to have faced the shame and stigma of being that first person, and for me, not only has it been an opportunity for leadership, but.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk An incredible opportunity for her personal growth for me, and I'm I'm just very, very thankful and well   - Liesel Mertes And I I hear that something that touches on a note that we discussed earlier in the podcast, especially as COVID, is disproportionately affecting, you know, black and brown communities. And, you know, as as so many people from those communities are frontline workers and, you know, are disproportionately at risk that, you know, things that are already unfortunately and baked into so many interactions of like shame or blame or judgment or feeling like there's a power dynamic, that things that were inadvertently doing just unthinkingly as we respond to people with COVID could really reinforce some pretty toxic interaction cycles of people who have who tend to have less agency within the dynamics, whether that's interpersonally or at work.   - Liesel Mertes So, yeah, I hear I hear that aspect of what you're saying.   - Arwen Widmer-Bobyk Yeah, it's very that's very important to to think before we talk. Always   - Liesel Mertes They tried that in kindergarten and it remains an important lesson decades later.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Arwen…   Leaders, consider the unintended consequences of your policy about confidentiality in COVID cases.There can be many good and important reasons to protect privacy, but what are you inadvertently communicating with the shroud of secrecy?  What are ways that you as a leader can be proactive in dismantling stigma around COVID?  For Arwen, this was sharing the news of her own diagnosis.  What steps will you take? Go gently with people who have gotten sick.Remember that you always know only a portion of someone’s story.  Arwen was coping with concerns about having to leave the country, worries about her daughter’s health conditions, and a number of large projects that needed her attention…all of this on top of her COVID diagnosis.  The moms who sent frantic, shaming emails had no idea of this cascade of pressures.  When you hear that someone has gotten COVID, do not let your first response be “Where did you get it?”Most of the time, people do not know.  But on a deeper level, this shows a self-interested posture that fails to truly pay attention to the person who is sick.  Instead, try something like, “I am so sorry.  Can I send you a DoorDash or GrubHub gift certificate?   OUTRO

- Liuan Huska And so I. I felt like when people were able to say to me, you're not just like something to be fixed, but we can actually learn from what you're going through and what you have to offer as someone who is suffering is valuable and actually may be central to our human experience, is not marginal in something that we just put on the aisles.   INTRO   My guest today is Liuan Huska.  Liuan is the speaker and the author of a tremendous book, just released this month by IVP Press called Hurting Yet Whole, Reconciling Body and Spirit in Chronic Pain and Illness.  Today, she is going to talk with us about living with chronic illness and the turn that life took for her in her early twenties, upending what she thought about the world and faith and the body.  Our conversation is far reaching, Liuan is Chinese American, we dive into intersectionality, the dark side of capitalism, and why weakness invites us deeper into our shared humanity.    But first, a little bit more about Liuan.  Liuan lives in West Chicago with her family.   - Liuan Huska Is my husband and our three kids, and we just adopted a couple of feral cats who live outside to get rid of our mouse problem.   - Liesel Mertes How has that gone as you hoped it would go?   - Liuan Huska So far we've only had like one or two mice since they've been outside catching mice for us. So I think it's going in a good direction.   Liuan’s children are 1, almost 4, and almost 7.  During COVID, finding outlets for fun has been complicated, so Liuan and her brood have started to forage.     - Liuan Huska So we started going I made a point to try to go to least one new forest preserve every couple of weeks. And we picked up what we downloaded an app for plant identification. I also picked up a book from the library about foraging, and that became just this lovely adventure that we had over the summer of identifying all these new things out in the woods and some of them even edible. So we really enjoyed that. From dandelion soup to chicken of the woods, they’ve enjoyed being more grounded in their immediate surroundings.    - Liuan Huska Yeah. It's just a great way to pay attention. Right. Like we're so caught up in the the macro level of what's going on in our world and it can feel really disorienting.   - Liuan Huska But I read an article about how like naming and paying attention to what it's like their local flora and fauna is a way of loving, like what's right in front of you. So the foraging was like my way of doing that was saying I'm here and yes, I'm present to this world right here, right now. I can love this place in a really attuned way.   Being grounded is important to Liuan.  She likes to be in nature, in the dirt, and teaches yoga as well.  Liuan is also a lover of words, both as an author and as a voracious reader.      - Liuan Huska So one of my the books I read most recently, one of my favorites was called An Elegant Defense, and it's a New York Times science writer who basically looks at the immune system and all the new developments around the research of how the immune system works.   - Liuan Huska But he tries it in four different people, stories who have autoimmune disorders or have different experiences related to like cancer or things like that. So that was just really fascinating to me. And it's something I try to do in my book as well.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. Well, and I hear in that. Connections to your own story and your journey with pain and the embodied experience,   - Liesel Mertes would you set up for me what your life felt like in in college, in your early 20s and then.   - Liesel Mertes Then the moment when things started to change and you had the first like a, you know, flickering of what would become a much larger part of your story.   - Liuan Huska Yeah, well, I come from a Chinese immigrant family, and my family has always been kind of like we get things done. I think of that Hamilton quote, like immigrants, they get they get the job done. That's totally my family. So my parents owned a Chinese restaurant when I was growing up. And I, I also had two younger siblings that I took care of a lot while, you know, doing school and extracurriculars and working at the restaurant.   - Liuan Huska So a lot of my growing up years was just kind of plowing through everything that needed to get done and felt like was my responsibility. And I felt pretty good about that. Like I felt like I was a very capable and responsible and competent person and I'm going to be in college. I definitely carried that, um, that sense of self with me.   Liuan moved across the country to attend Wheaton College, an evangelical Christian school in the suburbs of Chicago.  I am also a Wheaton grad, and we overlapped by a few years, sharing space on the leafy campus.  As an aggregate, our college was a driven bunch of young adults.   - Liuan Huska You know, Wheaton is a pretty type A community. I think I've I've heard someone say that.   - Liuan Huska He's like a psychologist who had been with Wheaton students say that these are like Wheaton students are some of the most like angsty students I've ever met under the surface. And I think I probably I'm lucky because I resonate as a graduate as much as we could try to relax. We're still trying.   - Liesel Mertes Yes, exactly right. It's always pushing, pushing, whatever it is.   - Liuan Huska It's funny because somebody just told me I posted a question on Facebook about what are the what are the most unhelpful things that people have told you when it comes to responding to pain or illness. And somebody said. You don't try it, you're try it, you're not trying or you're trying too hard, you just need to relax and then God will, like, go in there and take care of it for you.   - Liuan Huska It was the same idea, right, that if you're not going to try hard, you're going to. Try to not try hard the same thing, apply your world to relaxing.   - Liesel Mertes Yes, yes, I know that is true about our shared learning community.   - Liuan Huska Mm hmm. I mean, there were some I did experience and in my first year at Wheaton I was a transplant to the evangelical community and I experienced a lot of culture shock and had a hard time making friends to begin with.   - Liuan Huska But I was eventually able to get plugged into this group of people that I really felt like I could be vulnerable with. And so there was it was it all just pushing, pushing for sure, but that was the overall feel of that community.   - Liuan Huska And when I graduated from Wheaton, I expected that I would go on to graduate school, I wanted to travel around the world. I wanted to write books. And I just sort of felt invincible like that.   - Liuan Huska My body was just something I was using to get to my goals, but, um, that I didn't really pay too much attention to as far as like the signals and maybe ways that my body was saying, hey, you should slow down or this isn't feeling good.   Good.   - Liesel Mertes And let me dig a little bit deeper what you talk about, "maybe I wasn't paying attention to the signals". As you look back when I fill that in for me a little bit more. What were some of those signals that you would say you were experiencing, OK?   - Liuan Huska Yeah, well, when I finished we in I started a nonprofit job and it was again, I applied that same just barrel through.   - Liuan Huska And there's a psychologist, therapist whose book I really enjoyed. Her name is andI Kolber. I don't know if you've heard of her. Her book is called Try Softer, but she uses the phrase white knuckling. And that's what I, I feel like I've done so much in my life. Is white knuckle my way through anything that's hard instead of just like maybe realizing I could take a break instead of, like, pushing through?   - Liuan Huska So I had I got this really stressful job doing conference planning and it was a Christian organization. And that layer of the Christian mission over my work made it harder because it made me feel like I really couldn't stop. Like I was like maybe letting people down that needed this ministry if I somehow didn't, like, fulfill all of the expectations that our the director was putting on me. So I was just kind of just doing everything and saying, yes, we'll do that.   - Liuan Huska And I did try with another co-worker to kind of push back, but. You know, I just had I think I was like not as well equipped as I am now with the kind of knowledge and confidence and ability to honor my body that I was then.   - Liuan Huska So I just kept going and. We did the conference, it was in June, which would have been a year after I graduated from college, and I remember after that conference, my husband met me at the conference location and we took a two week vacation and my my brain was just like in a complete fog.   - Liuan Huska So that was one of those, like, signals of something's not quite right. Or like I, I pressed the override button too many times on my body, and that was the biggest one.   - Liuan Huska And also just like really easily triggered emotions and tears, really trivial things or what seemed maybe it was trivial on the surface, but it was just the tip of the iceberg of a lot of the bigger issues that I was wrestling with.   - Liuan Huska Yeah, and that summer was when I started having some minor pain in my ankle and I didn't think too much of it at first.   - Liuan Huska It was just. I thought, oh, it's just like some kind of weird sprain and it didn't happen out of any kind of injury, so that was what was sort of strange about it. But I thought, OK, it'll go away in a couple of weeks and I'll just go back to normal, which normal means just, you know, assuming that I could do everything that I put my mind to and I could make my body fit into my agenda.   - Liuan Huska Mhm. So yeah. Yeah. Just continuing to chug on through.   - Liesel Mertes And boy you gave voice to of the the nonprofit like whether it's Christian or not, trap of the mission driven organizations that can't compensate you on pay but can definitely drive you on a mission to continue to give more is absolutely a real dynamic of anybody who has worked for very long in that world.   - Liuan Huska So yes. And it's so hard when you're relying on donations. Right. So you think, man, I really have to.   - Liuan Huska Make these people's money count. So it seems like almost impossible to say I need to use your donations to pay for my health care or take care of myself. That seems like that's not what they were intended for. But that really misses the point of, you know, what what what the mission of being taking care of other people are doing good in the world is that it has to incorporate the people who do it to not just the people who receive it.   - Liesel Mertes Right. And like you said, I mean, asking for any degree of rest or release can be construed as like you are taking resources away from, you know, homeless youth in Chicago or starving, you know, entrepreneurial mothers in Bangladesh. That's horrible of you, which has its own psychological pressure.   - Liesel Mertes So you're feeling you're beginning to feel this pain in your ankle. You are hoping that it can go away so you can get back to performing and executing in a way that feels good. Incongruent to you. What happened?   - Liuan Huska Yes, so it didn't go away, it just kept spreading, so within a few months, you know, I was limping and I was using crutches or using a walking boot and that just translated everything that was going on my ankle up through the rest of my skeleton so that my knee started hurting and my hip started hurting and my lower back started hurting and my neck started hurting.   - Liuan Huska So it became like this sort of whole body thing and.   - Liuan Huska Really, though, the hardest part, I think, for me was I had this expectation that it would go back to normal pretty soon, and when it didn't, I it was just a lot of psychological turmoil because my expectation didn't match up with the reality. So I just wasn't able to accept what was happening.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about the particular messages that are going on in your mind at that time, the things that is you maybe even still presently like what are what are the statements or conclusions that are being offered to you as you're trying to make sense of this? Hmm.   - Liuan Huska Well, um, within the Christian community, there's I think there might be this assumption. That our bodies, God created our bodies as perfect and then. You know, whatever pain or disease or suffering that we're experiencing is the result of Adam and Eve eating the apple or whatever fruit you think it was and the fall and sin coming into the world.   - Liuan Huska So there was this narrative going on in my mind that my pain is somehow connected to. Sin and not necessarily my own, although I definitely had question that what did I do to to make this happen?   - Liuan Huska But it was even just more generally, I think it's it goes beyond just that people that believe that you can claim your your healing and you'll have it. I think there's a really subtle variations of that within a lot of different Christian communities. And and does that feel then like. I I need to work harder to get to the bottom of the medical causes or I need to understand better, is there an element of I need to be trying to do something better to get me healthier?   - Liuan Huska Yeah, I kind of went on this like a seesaw between. Oh, you just need to trust God and wait, and you're not trusting God enough by seeking out kind of frantically seeking out all these different possible medical treatments.   Liuan saw an orthopedic doctor who told her to take some Tylenol.  But the pain was still there.  She went in for an MRI,   - Liuan Huska In my book, I write about how it was like I felt like I was like offering myself up, like, you know, to like a priest, like on a table, you know, as like a sacrifice or something, because it just felt like this. Oh, I'm just waiting for, like.   - Liuan Huska The oracle to speak and then and then once you know the magical interior images, we are right out like seeing through and like, you know, the power of science. So but then it didn't come back with anything conclusive.   - Liuan Huska Like I said, there was something about a swollen navicular bone, which I still don't really know what that is. But the prescription was just more Tylenol and more walking. Puzzo I really was hoping that I would be able to get some kind of surgery and that would be it.   - Liuan Huska But that was not the case.   - Liuan Huska So I just kept going to different doctors and sometimes I would take breaks because it's just really exhausting to tell your story over and over again. Different medical professionals and nobody's talking to each other like, you know, the osteopathic doctor that just like natural medicine is in talking to, like, the guy that checks your hormone levels and the guy that looks at your bone.   - Liuan Huska So it's it was really challenging to be like a medical advocate for myself. Yeah.   - Liuan Huska And having to put together the almost mosaic of different pieces of insight and trying to make sense of it.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I imagine in the midst of that, I mean, you're just living the dailiness of chronic pain. And I think for for people who haven't gone through that, it can seem kind of amorphous, like, well, it sounds painful, but   - Liesel Mertes could you tell me what what a bad day looks like for you in your journey with chronic pain as you're walking with it?   Mm hmm.   - Liuan Huska So I should say this is part of my journey. Is that because you say what a bad day looks like?   - Liuan Huska I, I have way less pain than I used to. And we can talk we can get into like what happened like several years down the road when I got pregnant with my first child. But whenever I do have a point, a pain flare up. I just can't walk that far, and that is actually one of the really hard things for me, being someone who loves to be active and out in nature and being out in nature is such a powerful way for me to find meaning and just feel alive.   - Liuan Huska So whenever in the worst of the pain, I know I wasn't able to walk more than a couple of blocks and that sense of like, I'm so stuck in my own body and like I there's, you know, when when something traumatic happens, like there's this fight or flight reaction, you want to somehow get rid of the threat or like by, you know, killing the predator or running away from it.   - Liuan Huska And there are so many times in my in the worst of my pain that I just wanted to get out of my body.   - Liuan Huska I just wanted to run. And that was like the thing I couldn't do, was run. I wasn't able to kind of like process that the sense of like trauma and being like having my life being derailed. I wasn't able to integrate that into my body very well at the beginning at least, you know, I was just kind of keeping it in in my head for so long.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We will return, in just a minute, to my conversation with Liuan.  But I want to take a moment to tell you about our sponsor, Handle with Care Consulting.  2020 has been full of disruption:  COVID, an election, murder hornets, rising unemployment, a national reckoning with pervasive racism.  Empathy is THE leadership skill in the midst of these upsider down times, and it is how you will ensure that you don’t just survive as an organization but that you stabilize and thrive.  Handle with Care Consulting can help, with interactive keynotes, certificate programs, and coaching cohorts, we give you the skills you need to build a consistent culture of care.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes You spoke earlier about being Chinese American and this this capacity to push through and get the job done. How did that particular orientation affect your view towards yourself? And I don't know if at this time you were surrounded by many other Chinese Americans, but even in your family, how did that affect maybe how they were able to come alongside you or not in your pain?   - Liuan Huska Mm hmm. Um, so the main, um, person who in my life at that time who kind of brought our Chinese background into my life was my mom. She lived in a different state. But I I was definitely in contact with her a lot, telling her what was going on. And so my mom is one of those people that is like super like. Kind of paranoid about everything and really anxious, like as a mother, mothers are towards things that are going on with their children.   - Liuan Huska But also she when I was growing up, she would tell me a lot. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. And because she grew up in Mao era China, where. It was a pretty materialistic perspective right there. There's no like nothing exists outside of, like, the material stuff in front of us. So if if there's nothing else but our bodies, then if our bodies are not working as we want them to, that means, like, what are we supposed to do like that?   - Liuan Huska Like signals, like bad things for our future and our moneymaking ability and our ability to provide for retirement and everything. So unfortunately, like that sort of really like. First perspective wasn't always helpful because it infused more anxiety into, like the way I was approaching it as sort of like, this is all I have, my body is all I have.   - Liuan Huska But on the other hand, my like my Christian communities were saying, like. It doesn't matter what's happening in your body as long as you're spiritually well, so there's like this opposite push towards well.   - Liuan Huska The spirit is the most important, so you can just sort of like, ignore and transcend your body in order to just do what God is calling you to do. So my book really came out of that wrestling with the one pole and the other of,   - Liuan Huska OK, we are our bodies and that's all we are, or we're more than our bodies. And we're actually our bodies are not essential to who we are. And I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and that's that.   - Liuan Huska And it's really, you know, it's a mystery to be able to hold both of those things together. But I think there's something really valuable that we can learn from just holding those two tensions together. And that's what I'm trying to do with the book, is hold those two things together.   – Liesel Mertes And you are you're both telling your own story in the book. You also are an aggregator and collector of some other people's stories of how they have worked with pain, whether from your own story or those that you talked to. You know, you talked about like a specific thing that your mom said. What or some other things that you heard or that doing research for your book. Other people heard that you would say this is just don't don't do this.   - Liesel Mertes This is not helpful to people who are going through pain in their bodies. Hmm.   - Liuan Huska Yeah. Well, you know, you were asking me about how my particular cultural background shaped my experiences, and it's something that I write about my book.   - Liuan Huska But one of the other things that really shaped my experience was being a woman. And interestingly, like most of the people, all but one of the people that I interviewed, whether that's because I connected better with women, I think. But partly I think it has some grounding in the statistics to all.   - Liuan Huska But one of the people I interviewed was a woman I met were women. So there's only one man that I interviewed and. What I heard a lot from from people who are sharing their stories with me was. A lot of dismissal, just like, oh, fibromyalgia, that's a fake illness, right? Or one woman who was kind of my is my age and was at an editing job at the time, told me that she just started getting her fibromyalgia symptoms as she was doing this job, taking care of three children.   - Liuan Huska And she she would ask for days off and the the dad and the family would say, OK, can you just come anyways? Like you're you're still like you're sick, but you can still work. Right.   - Liuan Huska So there was a lot of frustration over the ways that pain is dismissed or seen as in in our head or seen as just women being overreactive to like kind of like too emotional about what's going on.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. Well, and I hear how that touches on aspects of intersectionality of like, you're missing me in my lived experience.   - Liesel Mertes And I'm experiencing a dismissiveness that to be female in the world also like just yields up to my experience again and again in a way that is painful. Yeah.   - Liuan Huska And the word intersectionality is something that I didn't really come into contact with until a couple of years ago. One of my friends is a therapist who works at that with people who have intersectional identities, which is just more than one marginalized identity. So she works particularly with Asian-American men and women. But when you have more than one aspect of your identity that is marginalized by society or kind of seen as lesser than all of those things affect our health, like just being in in a society that is not structured with our unique interests and needs in mind is a source of constant stress.   - Liuan Huska And the you know, there's so many stories of like black women having higher rates of, you know, pregnancy related complications. I think, like the statistic is like black women experience like preeclampsia, an early birth at like three to four times the rate of white women. And that is something that I explore in my book, like how those aspects of our identity that aren't accepted as part of like, you know, like fully accepted when we bring ourselves into wider society, how that affects our health.   - Liuan Huska And it does in so many ways that science is only beginning to document.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, absolutely. I, I resonate with a. A fascination of the growing body of scientific research that supports the reality of the way stress and marginalization is held on a somatic level. And and it's not that it has to be validated by a researcher in a lab, but to begin to have the language. To discuss that in, you know, the science is a part of opening the gateway for that to be in, you know, just more of the commonplace understanding of the lived reality of so many.   - Liuan Huska Yes.   - Liuan Huska And I think it's becoming clear in the pandemic. Right. We always hear the statistics of African-Americans have been dying of COVID at higher rates than other communities and. It just makes you realize, like people are finally asking, like, why are people why are black people sicker than white people? And it can't just be because they make poor choices like something else is going on. So it's I think that statistic made it really clear to me, and I hope it it's like making others ask questions as well.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, and it's fascinating. Even the you know, the data points of how stress affects you in utero, you know, before you've even taken a breath, you know, the stress of your parents lived situation, how they are experiencing, you know, marginalization and trauma and how that affects development of just in a way to be taken seriously of. Like there are formational forces that are being imprinted on the body as a result of stress and marginalization.   - Liesel Mertes They have incredibly deep roots. And what does it mean to reckon with that, you know, as society and as individuals?   - Liuan Huska Yes. And I was just speaking with someone who works in the health insurance industry yesterday. It was really fascinating because we were talking about the way that health care costs have been rising and people are just have such a hard time getting their minds around why things cost so much. Right. Like, why does an MRI cost like ten thousand dollars and why are we paying so much for premiums when we're only getting out like we're only just going to see a doctor for a physical every year,   - Liuan Huska like we're not getting out what we're putting in is the feeling that a lot of people have. And he was talking about like we as a society, as Americans, we're just so sick and depressed and in bad shape collectively. And I think that just has to do with this drive. That part of it, I think has to do with this drive that has been so ingrained in the American psyche of we we just like produce and we push and we we make it right.   - Liuan Huska And we're just like the economy needs to keep going and we need to just make things happen, like we can't shut down. So that has affected everyone. And people that are feeling it the most are the people that are the most vulnerable to all the economic shocks.   - Liesel Mertes Well, it's the it's the two-faced aspect of capitalism, right?   - Liesel Mertes You can be whatever you want to be. But also like people are they matter based on their capacity to produce in that brutal expression of that. And especially as that relates to some of the idea of talking about like why did empathy in the workplace matter? There is there is a truth that that runs counter to some of the most foundational grain of capitalism, which is like just keep producing, which is probably a good segue I'm talking about. So you you are living with pain.   - Liesel Mertes You're going to lots of doctors. How is that translating into your work situation? Are you needing to take time off and how is that pain being met by your workplace?   - Liuan Huska Yeah, so I quit that job that I was mentioning to you that was really stressful, that conference planning job. I felt like I just had to keep going for the sake of the mission. After I finish working on that, it was an annual conference that happened in the summer.   - Liuan Huska And at that point, as when I started having pain, it still didn't play a huge role into my calculations about what what's feasible for me to do for a job. But I was also planning to apply to graduate school at the time. So I ended up taking a couple of part time jobs while I was applying to graduate school. And thankfully, the one job I had was with a Christian, what's called the Christian century. It's a it's another publication of a magazine.   - Liuan Huska But they they were actually such a healing place to be after the. The not the Christian non-profit conference planning job that I had, because they gave me the space to say. It was a flexible job and it was based not on the hours that I worked, but on like the I was doing business administrative stuff just like fulfilling the task. But then I was able to go home after I had finished doing what I was supposed to do that was like so surprising to me that they didn't say stay and keep doing more things because like, you know, like we are here and you're a willing worker and, you know, for the sake of the mission.   - Liuan Huska But I do want to say, going back to just like the the workplace thing and how the the work my workplace has received me as I was figuring out what it meant to live with pain on a on an ongoing basis is that I had the ability to work two part time, really flexible jobs that really probably wouldn't have supported me, like if I if it was just me.   - Liuan Huska But I was married at the time already and married to someone who wasn't going through health struggles and had a full time job with health insurance, which was a really important and that enabled me to sort of explore different options and put together different combinations of work and school that I know not everybody has a lot of people. They're dealing with these health issues that are coming up, but they don't have like good support networks. And they have to they just have to keep going to work to take care of their families and put food on the table.   - Liuan Huska So I just want to be like, you know, kind of bring that up that I I was definitely in a place of privilege to be able to have options for how to handle what was going on.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's an important point.   - Liesel Mertes As you think about for yourself, things that people did that made you feel or make you feel especially well supported, even if outside of the workplace in your journey with chronic pain.   - Liesel Mertes What what makes you feel seen and supported one of people done well that's been important for you. Mhm.   - Liuan Huska So I think that listening is really the best gift that I've been offered, listening in a really nonjudgmental.   - Liuan Huska Just holding the space sort of a way, you know, um. As a Christian, going through these this health struggle, I just had so many questions about like questions questioning God's goodness to me, questioning whether I was, you know, my life was going according to God's plan and having places where or at least people that I could raise those questions with without feeling like I was being like going off the rails of my faith or becoming heretical gave me the ability to really reckon with the hard things without having to just stuff it, stuff, everything I was feeling into like a tidy Christian narrative.   - Liuan Huska And and out of that, I was able to like the listening that people have provided me, allowed me to just come to like truth and insights about like who I am as a human being.   - Liuan Huska And what does it mean to be a human being with limits and vulnerabilities? And how are those things maybe not only just not not necessarily liabilities, but strengths   - Liuan Huska like all those conclusions that I was able to come to happen because people gave me the space to process and and weren't like trying to push any kind of agenda on what I was processing, but simply being present to the pain and.   - Liesel Mertes I think that it's an important turn of phrase and one I'd like to hear a little bit more about for those people that were, from your perception, pushing an agenda. How did some of those? Because because we translate a lot right in our you I look in the sort of questions we ask in the sort of statements we make. How did those agendas sound to you?   - Liuan Huska Hmm. And I remember going up to ask for prayer at a church that we were visiting on Sunday and was one of my really desperate moments of like, I really need to be fixed. So I went up for prayer and told the prime minister my story. She was listening very kindly and attentively. And then she asked me, are you harboring any unforgiveness in your heart? And it was just this really odd moment of like, wait, I thought you were like here for me.   - Liuan Huska But now I feel like something you're asking me to.   - Liuan Huska Like, it's not and I don't want to say that there's like there's no link between emotional trauma and unresolved wounds from the past to our physical pain, but the way that sometimes people sort of interpret it, they're kind of their view of what was going on and and push that into the ways they were trying to help me. That was really it just felt like I wasn't being seen.   - Liuan Huska You know, I was I was kind of being put into there what the way they wanted to see the world and the way they wanted to understand how God and healing and bodies work, being maybe processed within a paradigm.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Hmm. I would call that persona in some of the work that I do. Aspects of a a Fix It frank, hi. Oh, this is a problem. And even even if she posed it as a question like let's fix this.   - Liuan Huska Right. Yes. And we all have those tendencies like I, I do too. And I like I was I remember like speaking with a friend who was going through really hard times. And the first thing that came to my mind was actually seeing a counselor have actually seen a physical therapist or she should try this. And then I had to just stop and sit and realize that's not what she's asking of me is a major problem. She's asking for me to listen to her.   - Liuan Huska That's all I have to do. And that's. Way more helpful to her than what I have to tell her about how she could fix her problems, right?   - Liesel Mertes Well, and sometimes I I tell people who who struggle with that tension, like they feel like they have a lot to give, even to ask the question, like what what would you like of me in this conversation? Are you looking for suggestions or would it be more helpful for me just to listen like I have to do just on a micro level? I do that sometimes with my husband because I can have this very default tendency of like, oh, well, let's talk about solutions and more often than my personality would like.   - Liesel Mertes He says, I just want you to listen. And I think, OK, I can do that. I can table all of these marvelous suggestions that I feel like I have.   - Liuan Huska Yeah. But I think that's a good point that you bring up, that there are times when people are looking for, like, really practical, like what should I do? Sort of help. And it's it's important to just be sensitive and read read the people for like in their body language and and, you know, know from the history of your relationship together what's needed.   - Liuan Huska But it's really great to just be direct and say, what do you need? That's like. Right. People like have such a hard time doing that.   - Liuan Huska They just they just want to, like, jump right in it, especially especially if you're a person who's verbal anyway, bring it back, know genuine listening.   - Liesel Mertes Were there other things that were really helpful to you along the way that people said or did?   - Liuan Huska I mean, just physical presence too, was another one that. So I tell the story in my book of one night when I was having a panic attack and it related to the pain like it was, you know, pain, kind of like fed into depression and anxiety, which fed into insomnia, which made the pain worse. It's just this vicious cycle that kind of goes on.   - Liuan Huska And I was I was in the middle of that cycle and I woke my husband up to try to, like, shake me out of it and just talk to somebody.   - Liuan Huska But he had been woken up so many times in the past months. And this was like just a moment where he.   - Liuan Huska Felt like he needed to sleep and wake up the next morning and go to work, so he just turned over and said, can we just talk about it tomorrow morning? And I just snapped at that point like it was something just like. Kind of just like, you know, a thread was snapped, snipped and a I went out into the living room and just had this like. I don't know, like frothing at the mouth episode, basically, it's I'm laughing about it now, but it was is pretty bad.   - Liuan Huska It was just that, like, I want to run and, you know, leave my body, but I can't feeling. Just yelling and I took this jacket that was right next to me and I was just like pounding it, like slapping it on the wooden floor and I just couldn't stop, like, I needed some way to, like, physically do something about how I was feeling. But my husband ended up obviously he was woken up by the whole thing and he came out and he just.   - Liuan Huska SAT behind me and put his arms around me and just stayed there with me and that physical presence of knowing that someone is with me in my pain and I'm not alone,   - Liuan Huska I think I needed that, like tactile, like signal of that to like what it's to in order to kind of release the feelings of panic. And so I know that's not always like a appropriate thing in the workplace, but even being present, like without touching and asking, like, can I put my hand on you like.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, embodied acts of care are so important.   - Liuan Huska Mhm, yeah, but but then I wanted to say like beyond the on the level of what, what can people like, what are helpful ways that people can come around people, those experiencing life disruptions. Um   - Liuan Huska another one for me uh that I talk a lot about in my book is. Just like like we were talking about, like we don't want to come at it as you are a problem to be fixed and.   - Liuan Huska What I realize in in a lot of Christian churches is that the people that, um, kind of have like these things that they're going through that are ongoing and just seem like unresolvable, they're seen as people to be ministered to. And so they're put sort of on the margins. Right, of of the churches like they're in the handicapped, sit in the aisles or they're, um, they're going up for prayer on the sides at the end.   - Liuan Huska But, um. We don't understand sometimes that those places of of deep suffering are also the places where, like life and creativity and new things happen if we are able to just be present to them enough to let those things happen.   - Liuan Huska One of my favorite quotes is from Brother Roger of Taizé, who founded the Taizé Communities in France. And it's in the pains, or where or when the wounds where anxiety is seething, creative forces are also being born.   - Liuan Huska And so I. I felt like when people were able to say to me, you're not just like something to be fixed, but we can actually learn from what you're going through and what you have to offer as someone who is suffering is valuable and actually may be central to our human experience, is not marginal in something that we just put on the aisles.   - Liuan Huska Like like we want to hear your story and your voice. And that matters like when I was as I started getting opportunities to speak out of that experience and have it be welcomed as as not just something that scary and that needs to be fixed and threatening, but like valuable.   - Liuan Huska That was really healing for me to be able to integrate my experiences into who I was and who I am today.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. That's a really I feel like important reflection that I'm going to mull over to think about how how we encounter people, that we would say, oh, they they need something, you know, not not just in a utilitarian sense of fixing them, but also without defaulting to some of like that the trite language of just like gods, God's going to use this. And it's all going to be in striking the right balance of saying whether it's in a Christian or secular environment of like you actually have something to give out of this without pushing people to do it before they're ready, you know, but.   - Liesel Mertes I don't know, almost just to make the space for belief that that they're like and and to have a posture that is ready to receive that when the person is ready to give it. Yes.   - Liuan Huska And it's also one of the things I note in my book is that the gifts that we receive from people who are whether they're disabled or they've experienced some kind of terrible loss or in pain, they're not always things that people give to us.   - Liuan Huska Like people in the disability community will talk about how the communities that have that are able to welcome people with disabilities are more peaceful because they've learned to deal with difference better. So they're able to just integrate those differences in ways that don't cause, you know, strife.   - Liuan Huska But they're also the teachers teach better whenever they have people with disabilities in their community, in their classroom, because they're learning to adjust their the ways they're teaching to their their student with disabilities. But that improves the way they teach to everybody.   - Liuan Huska People are more grounded when they have people that are different with in their midst, like, you know, like allowing people to go at their own pace, whether that's like a child that's just learning to tie their shoe or or someone that's having trouble walking and just like slowing down to walk with them to the store or to their car like that.   - Liuan Huska Those are all gifts that we receive from people that are are suffering, whether or maybe not suffering in the case of disability, but. Whatever it is like not conforming to the workplace norm or the societal norm, when we're able to just. You know, be in their presence, that itself is a gift without them having to, like, offer anything to us.   - Liesel Mertes Mmm. That's so good. And it makes me think of an article that I sent out to family members just this morning.   - Liesel Mertes It was a New York Times article, and it was it was talking about just like community, OK? It was called American. Stop being ashamed of weakness. And it was fascinating. It was fascinating on a number of levels. But there was one place in which they were it was quoting a noteworthy anthropologist. I'm not going to say their name because I'm not going to pull it correctly at this point. But this anthropologist was being asked, what would you say are the first signs of human civilization as differentiated from just other high functioning mammalian civilizations?   - Liesel Mertes And was it going to be tools or signs of being Hunter-Gatherer like cultivating the soil? And this anthropologist response was the remains of someone who had been found and they had had a femur that had broken and healed and had for the time. What she said was this is evidence that, you know, like a femur fracture like this would take six weeks to be able to heal at this level. And during this time, that person obviously would have had to have been, you know, had food brought to them and shelter and the care of a community that comes alongside them in that sort of a, you know, prolonged time horizon as really being a marker of, you know, like a particular type of care and civilization that is given.   - Liesel Mertes And and for some reason, I'm I'm reminded of that. Our capacity, actually to care to learn from is making us better. As you said, you know, the data points that show that, but also a marker of something deep and human within us.   - Liuan Huska Yes. Yeah, I've I thought a lot about that because. Right. Are the ways that our bodies fall apart or just our vulnerability in general. It seems like such a flaw. Right, in the design.   - Liuan Huska Yes, exactly. People have talked about that. But I've talked with like evolutionary biologists and and people in the field who have who have said what one person told me. She called it a selective advantage for community in that she was giving the example of, like, humans have a really short inner birth spacing. So they tend to have children like one after the other, whereas other primate species, they have like five to eight years between when they have children.   - Liuan Huska And and that could be considered a design for like why if humans are having this many children, they're not going to be able to give as many resources to children. So there's going to be more deaths. But the ways that human communities have made up, so to speak, for that side flaw is that they share child care and they they co parent and resources are shared among people. So that that's just show to her that, like, the way that we've evolved, if you want to think about it in evolutionary terms, is towards community and towards being able to like.   - Liesel Mertes Integrate our weakest members instead of just leaving them behind so they can just die of their broken femur, right. And this this has been a wide ranging from personal to metal level statistics conversation. I know that you draw a lot of these wisdom and insights and even more into your book, which is due for release in this December of 2020. Congratulations.   - Liesel Mertes And can you tell us a little bit more about your book? We're going to link it in the show notes, but where people can find out more about you and preorder or order your book as well.   - Liuan Huska Thanks for asking. Yes, my book is called Hurting Yet Whole Reconciling Body and Spirit and Chronic Pain and Illness. And it's published through Intervarsity Press. And it's it's springing up. All of these things that we've just talked about, how my story led me to ask these questions about questioning some of our common assumptions about healing and then coming to the conclusion that are the way to heal is not to overcome our limits and our vulnerabilities, but to learn to embrace them as what it means to be human and what in a way that connects us to other people as as a way to become whole, not just individually whole, but whole in a group with other human beings.   - Liuan Huska So you could you can get it wherever books are sold on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local bookseller, the Intervarsity Press website. And then you can also go to my website, which is my name, liuanhuska.com and you'll find an excerpt for the book. And also you can preorder at that on the site as well.   - Liuan Huska I also have in case readers are interested in a series of meditations that are a companion to the book, that there's for ten minute meditations that kind of takes you through some scriptures and silence and invites us to come home to our bodies and embrace what our bodies are.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   This conversation with Liuan sparked so many points of interest for me, and I hope that you do check out her book, there is more info about ordering in the show notes.  And here are three key-takeaways to consider: Do you consider someone who is living with pain, whether that is physical or psychological emotional pain, as a problem to be fixed?How does this Fix-It Frank mentality limit your interactions with them?  What does it look like to consider them as individuals that actually have something deeply meaningful to contribute to the collective life of a community? Physical presence, just being able to sit and be with someone in their hurt, is incredibly powerful.And this can be hard, because we live in a society prizes happiness and success AND we often feel the need to fix grief. Liuan spoke of the power of her husband just being with her, bearing witness to her emotions instead of moving away.  How can you show up like this for people that are hurting in your own life?  In your work setting? Are you promoting a white-knuckle culture within your workplace or family?  Liuan wrestled with this type-A drive.  And if I am honest, this is a take-away point that is totally for me.  I can really prize pushing through and doing hard things.  How can this lead you (and others) to ignore the needs of the body as you constantly prioritize productivity over rest? OUTRO   Find out more about Liuan Huska and her book here:  http://liuanhuska.com/

- Cedrick Smith We're going to tackle topics that are hidden in the crevices, that are a lot of times filled with shame and no one wants to talk about. But in order for us to get to where we need to get to and to heal from those pains and traumas, we are going to cover those topics and this being our first film, we couldn't be more pleased   INTRO This is the conclusion of a two-part conversation on Working While Black, where I talk with Tosca Davis and Cedrick Smith, two Black workers and film-makers.  Their powerful, award-winning documentary, To Be Us:  To Work, is making the film festival circuit and garnering praise.  It looks at the disruption of living and working in a world where whiteness is supreme.  If you haven’t listened to the first episode, I encourage you to do so now.  You will hear more about Tosca and Cedrick and their formative life experiences of marginalization and oppression in the workplace. Their film features candid, compelling stories from Black workers across a range of industries telling their working while Black stories.  Both Cedrick and Tosca hope that it resonates powerfully.   - Cedrick Smith I would have to say, To Be Us, To work the movie, the film that we did was made to help liberate and to heal. Tosca and I always talk about the healing element of To Be Us:  To Work and that we knew we made this movie specifically for Black people.   - Cedrick Smith We know that everybody is going to see the film and take away from it what they want to take away from it of all different ethnicities and races. But we also know that this film specifically was made for us, was made for black folks to be liberated and say, I can identify with what is going on here. I didn't know what microaggression meant. I didn't know that this is what it's called.   - Cedrick Smith And and we believe, like Tosca says, in naming things. And once you're able to name things and pull the scab back, that is when the true healing begins.   - Cedrick Smith And so the authenticity of the storytellers in the film, which at some point we hope everybody gets to see the film because we're currently in film festival mode right now and it's not in distribution and we're looking for a distribution deal.   - Cedrick Smith You know, that that was the the crux and the intent of making this film. And as we move forward, To Be Us Productions, that is the. The force behind what we do is that we're going to tackle topics that are hidden in the crevices, that are a lot of times filled with shame and no one wants to talk about. But in order for us to get to where we need to get to.   - Cedrick Smith And to heal from those pains and traumas, we are going to cover those topics and this being our first film, we couldn't be more pleased about the outcome. We couldn't be more pleased about the storytellers and the courage that they had in telling the stories.   But there was a particular challenge to carrying all of these stories.    - Cedrick Smith Early on, I would have to go out and talk to people and get their stories, write them down. And then, as you can imagine, the next weekend I went out and talked to people. I would kind of regurgitate some of the other stories so they could understand what I was talking about. And then the next weekend, I was telling some of those stories. Right. So invariably what was happening to me was, you know, even when we were having our business meetings with To Be Us Productions, you know, putting our production schedules together to map out how we're going to make this happen and so forth, I was becoming very irritable.   - Cedrick Smith I was, no, not becoming, I was irritable. I was I was depressed at sometimes. I was very on edge. And I literally had to tell Tosca one day. I think I probably called her late one night. It was like, "Hey, Tosca, you know what it is?   - Cedrick Smith I have internalized these stories." I had nowhere to diffuse them, so as you can imagine, I had these 40 stories that I had inside of me that were angering that you just sat there and you said, how could somebody be that cool to somebody?   - Cedrick Smith And one one story, this the guy in particular was there's a young lady who told me the story of she had changed her hair. She had made it instead of, it was straight, it was curly. But maybe she wore natural that day.   - Cedrick Smith And she's on an elevator getting ready, going to work.   - Cedrick Smith And there's a white co-worker that's with her get ready to go into the office with her. And the white co-worker goes up to her and grabs her hair and starts touching the hair. Literally, this is what happened to her.   - Cedrick Smith And she's said, hey, look, don't touch my hair. What are you doing? You know, like, no, don't touch it. Oh, it's not a big deal. I just wanted to kind of see how I felt it. I like your hair and you just tell me you like it, but don't touch it. You have to touch my hair. So she works throughout the day. She gets a call from the manager, said, I need to see you in my office.   - Cedrick Smith The Black woman gets a call from the manager saying, I need to see in the office. She goes into the office. The manager says to her, "Hey, look, I heard you got into a little altercation with X white person that was touching her hair, like, she didn't really like the tone that you used, you know, maybe." And so do you hear that?   - Cedrick Smith So she had hurt. That's dang near an salt. You touching my hair without my permission. She tells them not to touch my hair. And she's the one that got reprimanded for by the manager because of her tone of telling her not to touch my hair.   - Cedrick Smith OK, I mean, I was blown away by that   - Cedrick Smith another story was a young lady who had a degree from an Ivy League type school undergrad, who had an MBA from a Power five conference school.   - Cedrick Smith And she was a director at a at a job where she was co-director with another white man.   - Cedrick Smith So it was a public institution where you can see the salaries of the salaries come out and she sees on the email she's making thirty thousand dollars less than the white male in the same position.   - Cedrick Smith All right, she's been working it for years, that's a difference of three thousand dollars in ten years, that's a significant amount of dollars, whether it's private school or maybe we get a second home or, you know, saving for college or whatever have the money to use. That's three hundred thousand dollars.   - Cedrick Smith The interesting thing about it was she thought she could go straight to her boss and say, hey, look, we need to rectify this.   - Cedrick Smith This is ridiculous. I'm in the same position. I should get this at least equivalent money or even more. We need to correct this. And the boss says, "No, we're not gonna do that. And the boss will have to be a woman, a white woman. She says, OK, I got to go up above you. She goes in thinking, OK, I'm going to HR, is going to get taken care of. It doesn't get taken care of.   - Cedrick Smith She had to threaten to go to EEOC. ABC did ask you to threaten to get a lawyer, then they they finally brought her salary up to here is the new salaries come out on the email. He's making four thousand dollars more than she is and she has to start the whole cycle again.   - Cedrick Smith The caveat to this is, is that the white man didn't even have an undergraduate degree from college.   - Cedrick Smith He had graduated high school. So she had an MBA from a Power 5 conference, undergrad degree from from an Ivy League type university, and she's making still less money than he was making.   - Liesel Mertes Not to overuse the word exhaustion, but just the, having to keep asking is, is this habit like is this habit, that person I think they're treating me that. I think that that would be denied to someone else and like, am I not getting invited here? Or is that specific in   - Liesel Mertes That sense of like the mental reprocessing that has to go on as a subtext all the time? I mean, I just imagine it's that much less attention to give to all the other things in life that we want to demand attention if you're having to constantly run that tape.   - Liesel Mertes And yeah, I just that was something that I perceived as well. I'm like, that's that's just must take so much energy that could be, you know, doing all the other things in life to have to be processing at that level.   - Tosca Davis Right. And I want that.   - Tosca Davis I don't think you can overuse the word exhaustion, but if you hit that, you hit it because because we do have less time than white people. We have less money than white people. We have less power than white people. We have less everything than white people. We, we have, you know, the health disparities, the wealth disparity is all because of white supremacy. You know, there could be a there could be in a house that the exact same house, a street away.   - Tosca Davis What is the black neighborhood? What is it, a white neighborhood and what is worth, quote unquote, two hundred fifty thousand dollars. The other one worth five thousand dollars. That's a disparity in wealth. Just awful white supremacy alone.   - Tosca Davis Just because white is normal, just because there is there's the assumption that white people are supreme or that they are smarter or they're cleaner or they're the best. That is a difference in two of fifty thousand dollars in wealth.   - Tosca Davis Everything about living under white supremacy is exhausting and takes away from our we don't ever have pure experiences, we just don't I can't even imagine literally and I have a I have an awesome imagination. I can't imagine what it feels like not to have to wonder if you didn't get something or if you did achieve something or something happen to you because of the color of your skin.   - Tosca Davis Like what does that even feel like? I've never just in my forty six years, I've never just had pure joy, even even doing something that I love to do, which is, you know, we talked about the top of the hour is watch TV and and watch movies when most of the movies are still white centered and a lot of them have micro aggressions and, you know, jokes that are that are racist even a2020, even as we progress, even though many of the shows I watch are definitely different than the shows I watch in the 70s and 80s and 90s.   - Tosca Davis But even watching TV, white people are centered.   - Tosca Davis No matter where I go, white people are centered. Even if I want to move to another country or a city, I have to do research on that neighborhood to see how anti-Black they are, that if they are antiblack, how antiblack they are, and how does it feel to see a house that you want to move to in butt-fuck Wisconsin and as a white person, not have to do research to see if they don't like white people.   - Tosca Davis That's just not going to happen. But I have to do that any time I move the whether what neighborhood I moved to where if I want to work somewhere, I do research on. What's the scale, do they hate black people this much or this much so that   - Tosca Davis It definitely takes a toll on you? Because it is it is part of everyday life for me, even if I'm sitting at my home looking at TV.   - Liesel Mertes And. That's that's powerful and well-spoken, and I I can imagine that there's a perspective that you have encountered and you've spoken some to it, that sounds like this.   - Liesel Mertes Is this all just in your head? I mean, haven't we passed the laws? Haven't we had a Black president? Why are you still making a big deal out of it? After all, America is a place where you can be anything you want to be if you just try hard enough.   - Liesel Mertes Cedric, how does that sort of a statement sit with you?   - Cedrick Smith You like for it to be that way of life or for us to have Utopia? But that's not the case. That's that's just typically that is just absolutely not the case. The disparities that are there show it. I mean, I'm about data. You know, we have health disparities. I do a lot of research around health disparities, do a lot of reading around health disparities. And these are actual impactful numbers. We're dealing with COVID-19. We're seeing black and brown communities that are being devastated by this disease.   - Cedrick Smith And there are reasons for that. And a lot of those reasons are based off a systemic oppression, the systemic racism, period. That is the number one factor. You know, when you look at Barack Obama gets elected president, doesn't mean white supremacy goes away.   - Cedrick Smith In fact, you know, even in our film, we have instances where, you know, even the groups that that are oppressed, if you will, even the groups that are affected by the systemic racism sometimes take on the characteristics of the group that oppresses them.   - Cedrick Smith So you even have Black people in positions or Brown people in positions that propagate or are the gatekeepers for white supremacy.   - Cedrick Smith You know, even in our film, I think we have one young lady that was like, you know, I went to this one person.   - Cedrick Smith I looked for it for empathy from this person who was like me thinking that, like, I can find and embrace something with them and they will understand what's going on. And even at that person is not able to give them the empathy that they wanted at that moment. And I have other reasons why that person may not have been as empathic as that person wanted. It may have been the ten thousand the ten thousand story that that person had to deal with when they're working there for 40 years as a mentor and they're just tired that day, it's all about blame them.   - Cedrick Smith And so when I hear this, you know, "You can be all you want to be," there's so many instances where, like Tosca says, you know, the margins are very tight. The risk is greater. My one hundred thousand dollars is not the same as on a thousand dollars as a white board. It just isn't. You know, I got to pay for Big Mama's medication.   - Cedrick Smith Sometimes I help a brother pay his rent, you know, or I help a cousin out who's not as well off as I am.   - Cedrick Smith So it's not like I'm taking my whole one hundred thousand dollars home with me. It just doesn't work that way. And in a lot of Black families it it not that way.   - Cedrick Smith When you're looking at disparities of wealth where the average net worth, depending on what labor statistic you're looking at, is anywhere from nine thousand dollars to, I think, the latest labor statistic may be seventeen thousand dollars for the average net worth of a black family versus one hundred twenty two to one hundred eighty thousand dollars for white family. We're talking upwards of ten times, sometimes twelve times more in net worth.   - Cedrick Smith That is a huge, impactful disparity.   - Cedrick Smith You know, to I remember when I sold my house, I live in a very nice neighborhood here in Houston. And I remember when I sold it, I remember one of my neighbors that I've been neighbors with for eight years. Pretty cool guy, you know, seemed like pretty cool. I remember when he saw that I sold my HOUSE for a pretty, pretty good lake and he said he looks at me and he goes, "So Cedric who bought the house? Were they Black or white?"   - Cedrick Smith I he literally asked this question to me, not thinking. I'm cool with this dude. I'm like, where does that come from? Like, that's the question you're asking me on a block away from my house, too.   - Cedrick Smith And so when we throw out these, you know, everybody's equal and all is great and all is good and you can achieve the American dream list.   - Cedrick Smith This is not the same. The pathway is not the same. You know, oppression hurts. Systemic oppression has impact. The data is clear. And from health to economic disparities. Go ahead, Tosca.   - Tosca Davis I'm sorry, obviously to say and not to mention the five hundred year head start, like I, I,   - Tosca Davis I am offended when someone says bootstraps or, you know, you can make it if I can make it. Are you, whiteness alone is a privilege. So you know, the poorest white person has privilege, which is we have evidence based on how they vote. So many people talk about, well, white, poor people, they are always voted against their interests.   - Tosca Davis No, they're not. They're voting for whiteness. It is a privilege to be white. That's why every century or so white people let and other rules, you know, the Irish, they weren't always white. The Greeks weren't always white. The Poilish weren't always white. But every so often they let people into the club and they become white. So that is a privilege to be white.   - Tosca Davis And if you've had a three hundred, four hundred, five hundred year head start I really don't want to hear about, we're even an even playing field,   - Tosca Davis because even, even if we had the same amount of wealth, even if we had the say the best health, you're still white, you're still going to have the privilege over me.   - Tosca Davis You're still going to get into clubs I'm not going to be able to get into. You're still you're still not going to use a lot of your mental energy trying to figure out, is it because a black is because I'm black? Is it because I'm black?   - Tosca Davis I would if I didn't get this because I'm black. Maybe I should change my name on my resume. Should I take Tyrone off and put Dan? I mean, what should I do? These are things that we have to do all of the time.   - Tosca Davis So I'm very offended when anybody feels as though, you know, we are only saying I want equal ground when there are Jim Crow laws there. Redlining, there's voter suppression. I mean, it is it is is offensive.   - Tosca Davis I mean, I'm angry thinking about it right now.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes So for yourself, within the stories that you've collected that are particularly unhelpful as you for for people from a white majority culture as they interact with black people in the workplace, they would say, hey, don't do this. It's really stupid and offensive. Feel free to start wherever you want.   - Tosca Davis I'm just here thinking about that question, because there's it's not that there's it's not that I don't have an answer is that I have too many answers on.   - Tosca Davis I think. This is you know what, this is one I don't think a lot of people think about, I, I would like for white people to understand that many times, not most. Not all the time, but many times black people don't trust you enough to be your friends outside of work.   - Tosca Davis They have information about their private lives and their personal lives have been used against them before. And also, it's very hard to trust the oppressor, just just generally speaking, is very hard to trust the majority culture.   - Tosca Davis So many times black people are penalized for not going to happy hour or sitting at lunch. Understand that we have a limited amount of time or we could just be ourselves and not perform.   - Tosca Davis And so, you know, I don't think it matters if you take it personally, but it's not a personal thing. It is a security thing is a safety thing. We don't feel safe being vulnerable with you. And I don't even think we have to go into the reasons why.   - Tosca Davis I just know that it is unhelpful to assume that someone wants to be your friend and to be friendly. You may have a carefree life where you don't have to think about the oppressive systems, but black people don't have that. And we definitely don't have time to sit with you at lunch if we don't like you or go to happy hour or play golf with you on the weekends. Our weekends and our evenings are our time not to be in an oppressive system.   - Tosca Davis That that is the main thing I want to tell white people.   - Cedrick Smith Yeah, and I would add to that that, you know, you were saying some like don't do is more like me. Tell them what you need to do. You know, there's a there's a large amount of healing.   - Cedrick Smith I think white people need to do, you know, when it comes to racism, when it comes to the history of this country, if you're you know, we talk a lot about doing these diversity and inclusion classes that are supposed to kind of help, you know, equalize everything and help us understand each other better and deal with unconscious bias.   - Cedrick Smith But and a lot of instances, Black folks got to deal with conscious bias, you know, and so let's deal with that first.   - Cedrick Smith I mean, we know that unconscious bias exists. You know, we know that there is sexism and we know there are some other isms that we have to deal with. Yes.   - Cedrick Smith But to think that in these diversity and inclusion classes that we come into it, you know, equally afoot in the same way is naive and one in which if at some point in your lifetime you're not trying to get a better understanding of the impacts of chattel slavery had on this country and had on Black people, what red redlining had, what what black codes were about, vagrancy laws that were put in place after emancipation of slaves, understanding Jim Crow and what happened. If you're not put in the work to try to understand that and understanding white fragility, then, you know, hey, you can take it someplace else.   - Liesel Mertes There's resources like on the Internet, in video and book and article form. Like I, I think it is worth noting as people are receiving that challenge, it's like, you don't have to feel like there's not a place to start. There, there are actually some very good scholars, activists, artists that have put together some great stuff. And it's not like buried deep in Google. You can just start looking.   - Cedrick Smith There is a there is a very good book that that talks about kind of like redlining, talks about the history of Section eight housing and how it was created. And it wasn't just a black thing. You know, now we look at Section eight, like as a Black problem, like this is not what it was for.   - Cedrick Smith It's called The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein. Very good book. I highly recommend it. There are some other books out there, White Fragility and so forth. But that's about the kind of shows you systemically how policies, specific policies were made against Black people. Specifically and the impact that it has very matter of fact book, but very well researched and I highly recommend.   - Liesel Mertes It makes me think of a statement that I have seen in the mix, which, you know, has an aspect of like America is functioning the way it was designed to function. I mean, it's it's not just by happenstance, like there were actual, very purposeful, interest groups and, you know, mortgage associations and bank cabals and like, it's functioning the way it was meant to. Like that, that was not just how it happened.   - Liesel Mertes What are things from white people that you know, that have made you feel most seen and heard   - Liesel Mertes that you would say, OK, these are these are things not true. And Cedrick, you touched on this some, but on the positive side to say, you know, these these are things that were important to me that I received from white people in my life.   - Tosca Davis I have very few white people in my life, and the white people who are in my life now are very anti-racist, very progressive. They understand that they must give up power. It is not so, you know, we tell people to read and do things like that, but you have to be active.   - Tosca Davis And so actively giving up power looks like giving up leadership roles, giving, giving the mic to someone else, not centering yourself at all, not being involved at all. And   - Tosca Davis the number one thing I would that makes me comfortable that I've seen white people do is to give money directly to black women. OK, so one of the things that that bothers me is the performance of white people when they are performing woke or performing anti-racism. If you're not giving money directly to Black people, then you are not woke. You need to give money to Black trans women and Black women. That makes me comfortable because when Black women and Black trans women get everything they need, the world is all in. And when I say Black, I mean we're talking about the United States, then we're talking about African-Americans. But if you're talking about on any continent in the world, on the world, the darker skinned people, if you're taking care of, if those people, are well cared for.   - Tosca Davis They have everything they need, then the whole world has everything they need. And so that is what white people need to do. They need to give up resources, give up power, give up the mike, give up leadership. That is the only way that we are going to make a more equitable world.   - Cedrick Smith And and to add to that, kind of make an analogy, I am, yes, a Black person, but I'm also a Black male.   - Cedrick Smith And with that, I know there privileges in this patriarchal, hetero normative, patriarchal, ladened society where everybody views everything from their certain privileges I have as a man.   - Cedrick Smith So if I am going to request that those who are of the oppressive group, which men are oppressors to women, which I am a part of that group, then I would have to say that some of the practices that I have had to put in place that I've been called on, that I have been shown that, no, no, this is wrong.   - Cedrick Smith What you did. This is wrong. What you said to to, to Tosca's to tune of saying giving up the might mic and being centered.   - Cedrick Smith I've been centered so much as a six four black male in certain settings to where people thought that, oh, let me just go ask the doctor over here, this tall and handsome, the answer to this question. And I have no idea what the answer was, but this black woman to the left of me knows all the answers. And you should be asking her, so what does someone do in that position? I say the mic needs to go here and you need to center her.   - Cedrick Smith This black woman who knows the answers to these questions and who has more knowledge about this. You just assumed it because I was male   I want to share just one way that I have seen Cedrick share the mic.  When I posted the first installment of this podcast, I wrote about “Cedrick Smith and Tosca Davis”, listing Cedrick first on my LinkedIn notification.  He sent me a kind email that strongly (and kindly) requested that I reorder the names. He wrote, “we are intentional about tosca (woman) always being placed before me (privileged man)”. Big themes are communicated through a series of small but meaningful gestures, like this one.   - Cedrick Smith Having an awareness of that privilege. As a white person is one of the first steps, and I'm trying to make it analogous in that way from being a man and being more aware of, like, let me not center myself. Let me move to the side. Let me empower somebody. Let me go in my pocketbook and give some money to some Black women who I know are out here doing some things that are going to change this world for the better.   - Cedrick Smith That's what I do. And so that's what the charges would be for white folks. To do that, you need to give up that power, like Tosca says, and decenter to yourself, you know, and we'll be more effective in that in that matter.   - Cedrick Smith It's going to feel odd, because you are brought up in a system and this is what Tosca talks about all the time, is that we are unlearning.   - Cedrick Smith And believe me, once you unlearn a lot of things and have a vigilance to do so, because we're not perfect, we still make mistakes, I still make mistakes and have to say, oh, you know what? And I wasn't as vigilant about that. I need to I need to correct that. And having that that self-awareness and working on it can make things better.   - Tosca Davis I know that people are listening and they're like, how do I give money to black women? I can definitely send you some grassroot organizations because, again, the the biggest organizations are typically not giving money directly to the people on the ground. So in order to make change, we have to have community. We have to have grassroots organizations who are doing activism or doing social justice work.   - Tosca Davis And that's typically not your big name, nonprofits that you're where where the CEO is making a million dollars or half a million dollars. So I always send your money directly to the bottom line, and that is how we make a more equitable world. And I'll I'll get some resources out. And you can start from there.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, we will link those in the show notes.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you. Thank you both for taking time to Put just words and voice to that, a question that arose as I was listening was, I feel in white America that that there can be this interpretation of having Black people in your workforce, that it is either, it can tend towards tokenism of like, well, we need to do it because it's the right thing to do, tinged with an aspect of a fear-based crouch of like we don't want to screw this up.   - Liesel Mertes We know what a hot topic right now. We don't. And it can it can be the sense of, you know, we can vacillate between these extremes of like, well, you're here because we need to, but we're super scared of getting it wrong.   - Liesel Mertes I would love it if you would both speak to the positive side of that equation.   - Liesel Mertes What would you say our workforce's, our communities are missing out on by not allowing black people to flourish and just, you know, not have to be made small.   - Tosca Davis I would, first of all, let me respond to getting it wrong, if that that is that's the discomfort, that is something you're just going to have to deal with. You have to deal with making mistakes and feeling uncomfortable.   - Tosca Davis But how you handle that, that is being vulnerable is that I think I made a mistake. I apologize. I will, I will do better. And not relying on that person to teach you , you know, don't ask for labor that you're not going to pay for.   - Tosca Davis So I definitely want to speak to that. Is that your discomfort is something that you need to get used to.   - Tosca Davis If you are comfortable white person, you are doing things very, very wrong. OK, you will probably need to be uncomfortable for the rest of your life   - Tosca Davis to answer your question on what you're missing out on, what you're missing out on by not engaging black folks. You are missing out on a a world, a world that you can't even imagine.   - Tosca Davis You you may or may not notice that there is a large group of black people who are in the helping field. Black people are typically in the human resources field because we have been socialized to think about other people. We have no choice. That's the only way we get to civil rights. That's the only way we get through slavery. We could not be individualistic. We have to think about other people. So I think that's what I think that's the main thing you're missing.   - Tosca Davis Of course, you're missing imagination. You're missing all types of solutions to problems because you're not asking the right people that goes without saying.   - Tosca Davis But but holistically. You're missing out on this wonderful world where we are not destroying the earth. Well, we are not using terrorists to pull these neighborhoods where we are using community as the the basis for everything we need for education, for teaching, teaching people. Some people may say punitive or punishment, but imagine a world without police.   - Tosca Davis I guarantee you, if you put enough black people together to make decisions, at some point you're going to see that you don't need police because the police are always in our neighborhood. If they're not in your neighborhood, they're in our neighborhood. Let us get together and I guarantee you will find a way to bring down crime, which we know why we have crime, poverty. And so if we get rid of poverty, we'll have less crime. Right.   - Tosca Davis So I think that's what you're missing by not employing black people is you'll find out how how we'll make this world more equitable.   - Cedrick Smith Mm. And on a more, you know. On a more acute level, I guess, in in this capitalistic world that we do live in. You know, I got to go to a job tomorrow that is rooted in capitalism.   - Cedrick Smith We're starting to see patients as units and you got to see him in 15 minutes each. You know, what you're seeing in these types of settings in this capitalistic world is a creativity that you're losing. I have an instance where I have a buddy in IT, and he talks about how he literally has solutions to some problems that that were happening from an I.T. standpoint in this company. And they were having a big meeting.   - Cedrick Smith And invariably the question goes around and all the supervisors were white guys and they go around and ask, you know, other white guys like, hey, what's the problem there? Like, I don't know what the problem is. I don't know what I don't know what the solution is. I don't know. I don't know.   - Cedrick Smith And if all the white guys don't know what the solution is, they just closed the meeting down and he said there's been so many instances where he had the solution and he just felt like, you know what, if you're not going to ask me, I'm not going to offer it up because you're not validating who I am as a as a human being.   - Cedrick Smith You don't even see my humanity.   - Cedrick Smith You know, you just see me really as an object to be like in the movie we talk about our narrator says, you know, to be surveilled, you know, just to be, you know, surveilled and not even validated as a human being in the setting like a contributor.   - Cedrick Smith So I think a lot of times in corporate America, in any type of setting, I mean, blue collar, the would be even in our movie we have where the guys knew how to fix something in 30 minutes, whereas a lot of guys try to fix it for three hours, some white guys.   - Cedrick Smith And when they fixed it, they were the one that were demonized for fixing that in 30 minutes.   - Cedrick Smith And so acutely in this capitalistic world that we live in right now, you know, you're missing out on creativity that is unparalleled in regard to coming up with solutions that you're tamping out and not allowing to flourish, which would make the environment, the working environment, a better working environment, which would make it a more productive working environment, make it a more creative working environment. And so, yeah, I would say on a on a more acute level, looking at it from that standpoint.   - Cedrick Smith You just missing out.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   I’d like to take a moment to thank our sponsors.  First, FullStack PEO.  FullStack PEO is an Indianapolis-based benefits firm that specializes in helping entrepreneurs and small businesses.  There is enough to worry about in 2020, as you look to the New Year, let FullStack PEO take care of navigating your benefits packages so you can focus on your people.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting, my company.  2020 has felt like one of those crazy survivalist films, where we keep being hammered by murder hornets and global viruses and raging wildfires.  It has left your people tired, struggling to engage.  In the midst of all this stress, building trust and showing that you care has never been more important, and we can help.  Through keynotes, coaching, and certificate programs, we help you build systems of care and be more human at work.     - Tosca Davis I guess I would want people to take away the fact that we are all victims of these systems and that we all have privileges, and I want us to all be super aware of that and that we need to all go an through unlearning. And it will be a lifetime of unlearning.   - Tosca Davis And I know people aren't going to believe this, but trust me when I tell you this, if you are a straight person, you are very homophobic.   - Tosca Davis I don't care how you were raised. If you were raised in the United States of America, where straight people are centered and are seen to be valuable, you are homophobic, OK?   - Tosca Davis If you are, if you have no disabilities, then you're able if you go through your entire day in your life without thinking about how a person in a wheelchair or how someone who has a mental illness, you don't think about how they are going to explore the world, how they're going to engage in the world.   - Tosca Davis You're not going to think about that at all, as evidenced by how quickly we were able to work out of our houses and how many times a person with a physical disability was told that they can't work from their houses or they can't take classes from their home. But we did it very easily for able bodied people. And so once you realize that you're homophobic, that you're able that you're transphobic, that you're racist, that you're misogynistic, that you're sexist.   - Tosca Davis If you can't say those things out loud, then you are not going to get anywhere. As a white person, you are absolutely racist. There is no way around that because, because I am a Black person and I happen to have I happen to suffer from internalized racism. I have taken on many of the oppressors behaviors because that culture was centered in my life.   - Tosca Davis I was taught that culture. I'm embedded in that culture. So I have I have and will spend a lifetime un-learning white supremacy. And I'm a Black person. So if I'm a Black person who has taken on the oppressors behavior, there is no way you escape without being a racist.   - Tosca Davis OK, I need for white people to stop being ultra offended by being called a racist because you are a racist. I'm a straight cis person. I am very trans-phobic and I'm very homophobic. But guess what I'm doing. I am unpacking all of that. I am I'm learning all of that.   - Tosca Davis You cannot live in a world that is centered Christian, male, white, able bodied heterosexual CIS people. And not have an “ism” yourself is just not going to happen. So tell yourself, you know, before you are after you listen to his iPod. I am racist and homophobic and transphobic and I am doing my best. I am unlearning. I am listening to people, I am reading, I am giving other people the mic.   - Tosca Davis I am giving up leadership roles. I am giving up power. If you do not do that, we are not going to move the needle, it is just not going to happen. So I am I am asking you specifically white people to stop being offended when someone call you racist, because you are racist. And if it does, you cannot live in the United States of America and not be racist.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And well, and, you know, in the white communities where that I'm a part of that are having these conversations and it's important we need to be having them like not just with black people, but with the other white people, you know, to also have this realization of like the long term commitment of the process and the work and that there will be time like it's heavy stuff, it is heavy stuff to confront. And there will be times where, you know, you'll feel like, oh, man, this is so much.   - Liesel Mertes And it's like know how to care for yourself, know how to go. You know, that's that's an adult thing. That's a differentiator between adults and children, that you can like self soothe and be able to go to bed or take a walk or do some yoga and then like return back to it.   - Liesel Mertes I think I think at times, especially people who begin, they're like, I started and I wanted to learn everything. And then I just got so exhausted and I'm so tired myself and now I can't pick it up again, like with anything.   - Liesel Mertes You know, if you're committed to health, like you don't run, you don't begin running like ten miles. And then when you can't do that four days in a row, say, I'm never going to run again. Like you begin the process and you say I'm committing myself to, like, taking the rest I need and going back.   - Tosca Davis I totally agree with that, I think because of 2020, there's so many people who are trying to rush and read everything and take these classes, they're going to wear themselves out and they're going to feel like a failure.   - Tosca Davis Then they're going to go back to the same behavior and they're going to be exhausted, because when you're exhausted, you don't perform well. So I totally agree with you. This is a life, if you don't think it's the lifelong commitment, it's going to it's going to be so overwhelming for you. Again, as a black woman, I know I have a life long commitment to unlearning homophobia. I know this because I know that I'm going to unlearn this for the rest of my life.   - Tosca Davis So it is a slow process for me. Some weeks I learn more information, some weeks I don't learn any information so or able to behave in a way that is empowering to the LGBTQ community. I am committed to providing resources to the community. And so if you do everything at once, like you said you are, you are going to give up. You're absolutely going to give up. So I totally agree with you on that.   - Cedrick Smith And then kind of piggyback on what Tosca said earlier, I was kind of I didn't mention the word misogyny, but that was the word of the system, that being a male is that I'm a misogynist. And the unlearning of that has been a process.   - Cedrick Smith You know, it doesn't mean I'm this evil person or anything like that. That's not what it is saying, stop being offended by that. It is a fact that I grew up in a system that was was built and designed to be oppressive to women.   - Cedrick Smith That is what Tosca is talking about, that every day or every other day or whatever I can to do and my behavior and and in practice, that I do things and am mindful and intentional about the undoing and unlearning of those misogynistic ways that I have. Not perfect every time, I'm not going to get a quote right every time. But there's an intentionality that says, no, I'm going to do this and behave and change this and do this and do this and do this and be consistent about this.   - Cedrick Smith And as she says, it is lifelong, but I'm definitely better off now than I was 15 years ago. Absolutely.   Absolutely.   - Cedrick Smith But and and I'm not done. And it does it doesn't work that way.   - Cedrick Smith And it's nothing it's nothing to sit there and go, oh, well, let me put myself in the back. I've gotten to this point. No, it is still a vigilant, as I say, a hyper vigilance that one must have every day or however the interval is for you that you can tolerate to continue that process.   - Cedrick Smith And you will see the change. You will see it, you'll see the change.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from this second part of my conversation with Tosca Davis and Cedrick Smith. For my White listeners, we must begin by asking better questions and open ourselves up to different perspectives.Did you struggle listening to some of the labels?  I know that I still do, there is a part of me that wants to defend myself and say, “No, not me!”.  But I really like and appreciate the labels that Cedric and Tosca encourage us to embrace (and use for themselves) is that they use them to signal of the need for vigilance, NOT as a marker for shame.  Because shame always has been and always will be a crappy, crappy motivator.  This is not about taking on a label as the totality of all that you are, but using them to signal of aspects of privilege that you and I will need to be constantly unlearning. The unlearning is made up of small and large gestures, letting someone else’s name be placed before yours, giving up power, contributing money to Black women (you can find notes of Tosca’s recommendations in the show notes).Where are you doing this (or not doing this) in your personal life?  In your business?  And realize that this is particularly hard in a strongly individualistic society like our own.  For White Americans, we want to assume that we are entirely self-made and unbound by wider structures. Realize that compassion fatigue is real.To make a meaningful difference, you have to be committed to the work of equity and justice for the long haul.  When you start to feel exhausted, take time to step back, do something that refreshes you or makes you laugh, and then return to the good work of making the world a more beautiful place where everyone can flourish.    OUTRO      

Cedrick Smith So the disruptive part for me is the white supremacy, the white supremacy, and the microaggression is the microaggression of outright racism, to be quite honest with you, that I've had to deal with and I think that's what people don't realize is what we're bringing to the workplace before we even hit the door, before we even have to deal with some of the I want to say normal disruptive events that we all have.   INTRO   This is the first in a two-part series about the challenge of working in a world where whiteness is supreme.  And if you don’t know what that means, if that previous sentence put your teeth on edge, then this episode is probably one that you especially need to hear.   My guests are Dr. Cedrick Smith and Tosca Davis, two Black activists, professionals, and, most recently, filmmakers.  Their film, To Be Us, is making the film festival circuit, receiving accolades for telling the stories of Black professionals whose primary disruptive life event is living and working in a world that does not value divergence from the norm of whiteness.  The question that they ask all of their interviewees is, “What is your working while black story.”   I am giving it two episodes not because it is easy listening, but because it is essential listening.  I’ve seen the film; it is both powerful and necessary and I am eager to be a part of exploring the themes in our next two episodes.    We began our interview during election week in November of 2020.  The whole nation was tense, but I was especially struck by the physical uncertainty for Cedric and Tosca in Texas.    - Tosca Davis Friends walked into the apartment building and this white guy said, what are you doing here inward? And, you know, I was like, OK, it's already starting. So regardless of who wins as a black body, there's going to be terrorism stuff. We're going to feel it. So it doesn't have to be physical. I'm always going to be very protective of my body and I'm already conscious of where I am as a black person. I've already been socialized to be conscious of my body at all times, regardless of where I am.   This is Tosca Davis, an activist, mystic, a storyteller, and the co-CEO of To Be Us Productions.  We will hear more from her soon.   - Tosca Davis But as far as feeling safe, I wouldn't say you would find too many black people who are going to feel safe in either.   - Cedrick Smith In fact, back then to that, we already won and family members are still like that, we have text groups that are like, hey, look, if you are by yourself, be very aware where you are. Be very aware of your surroundings. You know, go with somebody, gas your car up in the daytime. These are literal things that we're texting to one another during this time. So, yeah, like Tosca, we don't never feel safe.   This is Dr. Cedrick Smith, he is an activist, an athlete, a writer, a comic book collector, and a physician.  Very much a Renaissance man and a co-CEO of To Be Us Productions.   - Cedrick Smith I just don't think that I was at my country club the other day hitting balls and we have a practice area and there was a guy's house and he's always trying to police. And I put that in quotes, police the practice area.   - Cedrick Smith So every time I come out there, he's always like, hey, you replace the divets? Are you doing it? I'm playing golf since I was seven years old. I'm fifty. And so I'm like, yeah, I'm doing all of that. But he's he's like surveilling and policing. So he he comes out of his house when he's walking toward me. And I was like, OK, who wants to do walking toward me? So I just kind of moved away from it, first of all, because the would not want to be close to him, but he was going to get one of the golf carts.   - Cedrick Smith And I said, I hope not coming out here, police me like you always try to do with people that have the driving race. And I'm not really trying to please you. So that's what you always kind of do when I'm out here just trying to get golf balls. And so we kind of got into it and it ended up this kind of a back and forth ended up with him at some point saying like, well, how to get my gun and shoot you.   - Cedrick Smith It got that elevated, you know, and I mean, so you like, OK, this is you know, I'm just trying to tell you, I don't I don't need you to police me. Let me hit my golf balls and enjoy it. That's why I'm out of here and about. And you leave me alone.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I imagine that that there's no way that that feels like just an empty threat that is easily passed off, like, you know,   - Cedrick Smith He knew what he was doing. He noticed that. I mean, you know, I don't think he was going to go get a gun and shoot me. I didn't. But again, you know, just the fact that you went there, you know. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and if you're a member of a community where actually that sort of violence is not even an aberration like that, deep in the psyche to be like, yeah, people make threats and that happens to black. Yes.   - Liesel Mertes Well, that's it is it is a nationally happy moment, but I hear in both of your voices a level of concern for physical safety and well-being. That is not part of my experience. And, you know, it feels draining just to live my experience. I cannot imagine having all of those other levels of care on top of that, which is one of the things that we'll be discussing some in today's episode.   As you just heard, Cedric loves to golf.  He plays many sports:  football, basketball, tennis, ping-pong.  He was the QB for the Dallas Carter Cowboys the year before the won the title.  But it is golf that is his passion.    - Cedrick Smith And the thing I love about golf is there's a there's a singularity to it. There's a. Not having to rely on, you know, other teammates, which I enjoy that part of team sports, but in golf it's really about you versus the course, you versus your feelings, your anxieties.   - Cedrick Smith You're feeling the pressure and having to hit a particular shot at a certain time. I tell people all the time there's I happen to have played golf at a very high level. I played college, golf. I was an all-American two times. And I tell people all the time that there, for me, there was no feeling greater than winning a golf tournament.   - Cedrick Smith I don't care if it was with 10 guys or with a tournament where I won out of, you know, 50 to 100 people winning a golf course. There's a there's a habit I get that I can't really explain.   - Cedrick Smith When you look back at all the work that you did to improve, to get better, all the failures you had, where you were in contention and you got third place because you missed a shot here or you mismanaged the last three holes or you couldn't manage your emotions well or you didn't win. The shot was called for. You weren't able to pull it off.   - Cedrick Smith And it's disappointing. And then getting up from that and learning from it and going back out and executing it and winning, there's no feeling like that.   - Cedrick Smith Even the feeling of being in contention, you kind of know where other people are at that level.   - Cedrick Smith And for me, there's just there's just no feeling like it. I cannot explain it. I can explain to people. I just. The joy that it is giving me, the pain is giving me the learning lessons it's given me is just an incredible sport, incredible sport. And I'm glad my dad was able to teach me the teach me the game.   Cedrick hasn’t had much time for golf recently.  He works in preventative health and has been hit hard by COVID.     - Cedrick Smith Early on, we were seeing patients were really, really sick and not knowing exactly what was wrong with them. And so. With that, as a medical director, you're trying to come up with protocols and real time for your staff, you're trying to balance family members who are not quite as aware you as you are with what's going on, telling friends, warning them of what what is to come.   - Cedrick Smith It's been a lot more strenuous in that regard.   Cedrick has also been busy with his activism work and his film-making, which we will hear more about later on in the episode. But I also want to introduce you to Tosca Davis, Cedrick’s co-CEO at To Be Us Productions.    - Liesel Mertes Tosca. What are some things that fill your time right now that give you joy?   - Tosca Davis Oh, thank you for asking that question. I really appreciate that what brings me Joy right now, several things. So first of all, I'm going to be honest, I love watching TV. I love watching movies. I you know, that's my escapism. My belief system is that most people have a drug and my drug of choice is storytelling. And so I like it in the form of, you know, visuals and 3-D. And so that's why I love streaming services and I can watch anything that I want to watch.   - Tosca Davis Sci fi fantasy, romance, rom com and fantasy are my two favorite genres. I was born in the 70s and I grew up on big gesture rom coms.   - Tosca Davis I've even tweeted Tom Hanks and let him know that he ruined my romantic life because I that my life would be that way because I grew up on great rom coms with great soundtracks. And so that is bringing me joy right now. It would bring me joy regardless if there were if there were a pandemic or not.   I just loved TV and film.   - Tosca Davis The other thing that brings me joy is, well, I already talked about that. I love storytelling. So within that I love mythology. So under the umbrella of mythology and storytelling and symbolism, I study astrology. I study tarot. I'm now taking classes to be an herbalist. So, you know, some people may call me strange and I rather love that. I love that moniker. I love to be called strange, but I kind of like to do things that are that are unique.   Tosca is imbued with deep curiosity and an omnivorous intellect.    - Tosca Davis I think I don't really have I don't think I had a problem being strange. I knew that I was strange early on as a child.   - Tosca Davis Even my family has called me strange, but I've never I've never was made to feel bad about that, really. And not that I didn't have. You know, it's not that I have didn't have a you know, I had an upbringing that was a little traumatic, but still, I was never that was never told that I was abnormal or strange.   - Tosca Davis But I knew I was because I knew I had different belief systems and different interests than other children.   - Tosca Davis So, for instance, I when I was when I was smaller as a I guess maybe around eight, nine years old, I want to be an architect. And so I wanted to I spent hours drawing floor plans and reading better homes and gardens and checking out drafting books and mechanical drawing books. No other child was doing it, but nobody told me that I couldn't do it. So I. I don't feel like I was made to feel bad.   - Cedrick Smith And, you know, one of the things Tosca talks about with her being, quote, weird and strange and an open toast is very she the openness that she has is she has this talent of freeing people of of you know, she always talks about. People being given the permission to be who they are or having a belief system that may change, or you may have thought this one time, but hey, if that doesn't fit with your inventory now, when you do your yearly inventory, you can change it.   - Cedrick Smith And that was one of the things with her that I must say with me was very freeing. I mean, there are there are a lot of similarities that we have to go into something that was healing, which is medicine. She did social work. So there are some commonalities there.   - Cedrick Smith But also, I must say, I was inspired by her in regard to how free she was in navigating this world that was very harsh and harmful and very rigid at times.   - Cedrick Smith But her saying that you can do this, you can be this.   - Cedrick Smith If you feel like doing this, you can do it.   - Cedrick Smith You know, so there's a there's a permission quality that she has that is very endearing and and much, much, much appreciated. She has definitely inspired me in so many different ways.   - Cedrick Smith And I couldn't have thought of anyone more to to that I would have enjoyed more than working on this project of creating a film production company that's so out of the blue for both of us,   - Tosca Davis I know that. Thank you, Cedrick. I feel so honored. I appreciate all those words.   Tosca began her studies pursuing architecture.   - Tosca Davis And then I took one psychology class and that changed everything. So everything became about human behavior. And that's when I made it a social work and psychology and became a social worker.   - Tosca Davis And then I'm not a social worker anymore because of what I've learned. As someone who's very intuitive and can be very empathic and sensitive, people like me tend to go into the helping field or the social work field where it will definitely it will wear us out because we feel everything. So because I felt everything, I decided to leave social work, but I still want to help people.   - Tosca Davis So I went into nonprofit and so I worked for the United Way. I work for Children's Aid Society. I work for Planned Parenthood, I work for some major nonprofits and I work for the Sickle Cell Association. And that's where I met Cedrick.   Cedrick was on the board and Tosca was an employee at the Sickle Cell Association.  This was 15 years ago, in 2005.    - Liesel Mertes What were your first impressions of one another?   - Cedrick Smith I guess for me, I was a board member and I just remember Tosca had really big hair. And no, I mean, at that time, I think she had kind of like a reminder there was a movie kind of came from that movie by M. Night Shyamalan with Samuel Jackson as Mr. Glass.   Yeah, I care about my mother and broken or something like that. Yeah, unbreakable. Unbreakable.   - Cedrick Smith And I just remember one day, seeing as I was a board member living across the sea. And the thing that struck me was this kind of like in the movie, Mr. Glass had this kind of like hair that was like their signature and our hair was big in that way. And then from there, I remember, I think at the time I was working on a book. And I didn't have a computer at home here.   Cedrick was co-writing a book with a friend, coming into the office to work.   - Cedrick Smith And so one day, Tosca and I got into a conversation and she said, "Well, Cedrick, what where did you work on the book?"   - Cedrick Smith And I said, I'm working on it at work, on the computer, at work. So why don't you work on another computer work? Because I don't have a computer at home.   - Cedrick Smith And she started laughing and she's like, What do you mean? And what, you don't have a computer at home? And so I was like, no, I don't. I just work on it and, you know, it at the job. And so after hours.   - Cedrick Smith And so she said, no, you should have a computer.   - Cedrick Smith And I said, OK, all right. Well, look, look, you give me the money, I'll go back if you and set it up for you. And that's kind of where. You know, our friendship took off. Got to set it up in my house, and from there we just developed a very good friendship.   Five or six years ago, Cedrick began getting more involved in activism spaces, especially after the deaths of Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Jordan Baker.  - Cedrick Smith And so with that, I found myself going to various groups, sitting down, listening, being quiet. It doesn't matter that you, a doctor in those kinds of settings, sitting back in the back, being helpful and learning what it's like to advocate, learning what it's like to be organizing people and protesting and what is to come and what is to be expected. Learning from organizers locally of how to have specific asks and executing that and trying to get incremental change in this big system that you're trying to fight and get rectified and change.   - Cedrick Smith But we would find ourselves going to a lot of these black spaces dealing with black issues that was in regard to uplift or liberation or what have you, dealing with police brutality, economic disenfranchisement, whatever the the the oppressive ism was at the time, we were dealing with these things at these meetings and what we came away with many times and not every time, but many times was that the culprit in the room was not addressed.   - Cedrick Smith And so for us, there was this sense of, yes, you're doing the work, but we felt like you can't do the healing.   - Cedrick Smith You can't get to the crux of the issue or to the solution until you have. Gotten to what is the cause and the cause in these situations was. White supremacy, and no one was saying that no one was talking about the actual system that is the culprit.   - Cedrick Smith So with that fast forwarding, one day we're in a car which is driving.   - Cedrick Smith And I just was I think I was going to pick up a trophy from a golf tournament that I just won like the week prior. And course, I wasn't able to play in this particular time because I was injured.   - Cedrick Smith But we were talking I was like, you know, Tosca I'm just I'm just frustrated when I go because I just come back from another incident where it didn't go in on the culprit of the situation.   - Cedrick Smith And I said, I'm just tired of coming away feeling as though we're not dealing with the culprit.   - Cedrick Smith And as we talk back and forth, I said, look, why don't we just start a production company and we'll make films that we want to make to get the message out, that we want to get dealing with the issues that we want to deal with and we're going to go from there.   - Cedrick Smith And that's kind of how it literally started. And so fast forward, we try to come up with a name. As you can imagine, Tosca has many names of trying to name a company and she had astrological names. I was more binary in my head, my approach to coming up with a name. And then I just lean back one day. And I said, you know what? I just want people to understand what it's like to be us.   - Cedrick Smith And I say, just like that. And Tosca looks at me said, and that's it. That's that's the title of the company. And I was like, What do you like to be us? To be US productions?   - Cedrick Smith And we were like, we talked about him a little bit. And it was like, that's it. And then I'm there. Now you're trying to figure out what you want to do with regard to making a film and. We decided to do a walking while black story with stories that are coming from from different storytellers, because we knew that one work is universal to talk, we'll probably get a little later.   - Cedrick Smith She had a personal experience. You had a disruptive experience in our own life in regard to working on Black Story.   - Cedrick Smith And three, we knew that we would be able to find content. The only challenge was what would would we be able to get the people to tell their stories on film?   - Tosca Davis You will be amazed or maybe not. How many people have never been asked to do something? I've never been asked to participate or engage in a project outside of their family or their business or work. But I do believe that when you ask people something, they think about it and they say, well, OK, then no one's ever asked me that before, but Cedrick did a lot of good research and one on one face to face with people.   - Tosca Davis And I would like for him go into how he did that.   - Cedrick Smith I would go to restaurants where I knew that black people frequented. I would go to other black spaces, lounges and hangouts and, you know, odd spaces where black people were with this little literally black book that I had with a pen and sit down and kind of intrude a little bit as much as I could and ask them, hey, you know, I'm doing this research project.   - Cedrick Smith Would you mind if I could talk to you for about five or ten minutes? Many people were receptive, and they would tell their stories. And I would say, you know what, driving while black means, right? And I was like, yeah, oh, yeah, you know, that is that's where you deal with the police brutality and stop by the cops and so forth. One black person doesn't know that. And then I would say, well, what about working while black?   - Cedrick Smith And to a person, you know, if I was talking to a group of four people, three people would immediately say, yes, I do have a story. I know exactly what you're talking about. I do have an experience at work where this happened or that happened.   - Cedrick Smith But invariably, what would also happen, that fourth person who said they didn't have a story, they would say, you know what, after hearing their stories, I do have one. I knew then we were on to something.   - Cedrick Smith I probably have 40 stories literally in this black book that I have where, you know, some of the people are actually in the film. Most of them aren't.   - Cedrick Smith But, you know, from the film and the story us that we got, we were quite pleased and shocked and surprised and amazed by how well they told their stories and just we were humbled and humbled by their stories.   - Cedrick Smith So that's, that's kind of how we got. The people to come in was just basic guerrilla interviewing tactics and going to churches and so forth and just asking people, hey, we're doing this, could you come and tell this on film?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and you know, someone who has seen the film, they do tell their stories with. With vulnerability and openness and, and they're you know, they are divergent to an extent, you know, it's they're different manifestations, as you said, of the same theme of feeling silenced and marginalized.   - Liesel Mertes And you are you are both obviously care and tell the story as well. But especially for this, I guess I'd like to ask you both the question that you ask in your film Tosca. What is your working while black story?   - Tosca Davis Well, as as someone said in the film, I have several working well black stories, but the one that stands out the most would be the most recent one, which was a catalyst for the film   I need to interject here as a podcaster.  It is very important to Tosca, to Cedrick, to the very ethos of To Be Us Productions to hold individuals and organizations to account.  Part of this truth-telling is directly naming names.    I believe this is incredibly important…but it also puts me in a potentially legal space as a podcaster.  So, here I am, caught between my resonance and my potential liability.  As a sort of half-measure, I am editing out the names that Tosca said, but I am linking a Facebook post by To Be Us that specifically names both the organization and the individual that are players in Tosca’s working while black story.    Tosca was working for a very well-known, national non-profit that specializes in women’s health (more specificity is available in the link in the show notes).  It was 2014, her last year working there,   Tosca Davis And I was called into the office of my manager, who happens to be the vice president of Human Resources, and she asks me and she shows me screenshots from my Facebook page, my personal Facebook page.   - Tosca Davis And she said, Tosca, just want to make you aware of this. And I want to ask if you you know, if you were OK with taking these down. Somebody reported that they feel if they feel offended by these posts and the post was they the post was about white supremacy and racism, oppression, whiteness.   Tosca was surprised, shocked, especially since the national wing of the organization had just sent her to a training on bias, racism, and white supremacy.  Tosca wondered, was it a volunteer that had reported her?  No, it was a co-worker.  You can find her name and role in the link in the show notes.  This co-worker had taken a screen shot of the post and turned it into the VP of Human Resources.  The co-worker felt offended that Tosca would feel a particular way towards white people.    - Tosca Davis And I immediately told my manager that I was not going to take it down and they were going to deal with it.   The VP of HR wanted to set up a meeting to discuss the incident, which Tosca thought was absurd.    Tosca Davis When it was time to have the conversation. She was treated as though she was the victim and I was the aggressor, as she just really felt offended and she felt like I was being racist and she knows I was being racist.   - Tosca Davis And if we need to be brought up, that they need to have some type of training. And if she is, she knew people who could train us in all kinds of whiteness, all kind of white madness. This is what I call it. And so I quit that day or the next day, I can't remember. But I definitely was not going to stay in an organization that claims to help women, just not black women, especially if you look at the the C Suite, you know, it is all white people except for one black person, one that's not even the stakeholders.   - Tosca Davis That's not the community that they're serving. And none of them were child bearing age. So, again, you're talking about white women who should give up their positions to people who actually like the community. So all of that live to.   - Liesel Mertes Do you use that?   - Liesel Mertes Let me just jump in unison and evocative term white madness. I tell me a little bit more about that because I feel like it it bears unpacking. I feel like there's probably more there.   - Tosca Davis OK, a white madness to me is the is kind of the audacity of white people to feel offended and the performance of it all, because that's what that's what I was getting. I was giving a giving a performance, especially from someone who claimed to be a white feminist. It was is the performance of being outraged and having the audacity to even challenge the whiteness or challenge someone who assumes that they are better than I am, are so that I am not not as knowledgeable as they are.   – Tosca Davis So that they are the norm and I am the person on the outside, so that's how I describe madness, is that it's a performance that I've seen white people do and honestly, more specifically, white women. And I can go into more detail about what I think is white women, because they are trying to move, you know, in a parallel position of white men, white men. Typically, they already have that position. So they don't really do a lot of performing.   - Tosca Davis A lot of their violence comes in in a very silent undercover way. The white women, they tend to be very performative when it comes to their violence towards women, especially toward black folks, especially in the workplace. That makes sense.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, thank you for taking the time   - Tosca Davis so that so that was my working while black story and I'm especially offended and I wanted to to say for two reasons, again, because this is a nonprofit and non-profits typically get away with this type of violence and trauma toward their black employees.   - Tosca Davis It's I've heard it is been discussed so many times in circles about, about this type of treatment. And personally, I can tell you that I did dabble in for profit and corporate before I worked in oil and gas. I never had any incidents of sexism or racism in that. And this is the Fortune 500 company.   Now, I'm not saying that it didn't happen, is just I didn't experience it. I think the Non-profit is very relaxed. And because they help people, quote unquote, like I said, they get that they can get away with doing these types of things.   - Tosca Davis So that's my working while black story. I still remember it again is one of the reasons why we made the film, because I just didn't want anyone to get away with that anymore.   The stakes felt especially high for Tosca.  From her perspective, this co-worker was out to get her fired.    - Tosca Davis And if you're going to get me fired, that means I'm not going to be to pay my mortgage. I'm not going to be able to eat.   - Tosca Davis I'm not going to pay my car. Note that is a that is a violence and a trauma that black people feel. You are putting my livelihood at risk because you are fragile. So that's why I keep using the words violent and traumatic and terrorism. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic at all. That is exactly how black people feel. We feel terrorized. We feel traumatized. We feel abused when white people feel like they have been offended by something.   - Tosca Davis So that, again, that's the most interesting part is that I literally have left a conference on all of these topics and and dare to post anything on my Facebook page about it. And so that's the white man is right.   - Liesel Mertes And yeah, we I think especially white America, wouldn't we love to think that it could all just be taken care of in a three day conference and then we would never have to talk about it again? Because what you said of the feeling of. It's it's a powerful and can be a powerfully oppressive thing, white discomfort, and I feel like, you know, I I as I continue to grow and avail myself to different stories, I just realized that the unwinding from me will be a lifelong task that I can, you know, either keep pushing to the side or be able to embrace, even as it makes me uncomfortable, because frankly, I mean, it's my discomfort is not on the same level as, you know, someone's livelihood or the safety of their bodies.   - Liesel Mertes And I think that there is especially for for for me as a white viewer of your film, you know, there were places where I was like, I have done something like that. I have been on the other side of perpetrating you know, there is one one guest talked about a dismissiveness towards Black History Month, you know, as far as people were talking. And I thought, oh, like I know as a kid, you know, for whatever mix I was a part of, I talked about like Kwanzaa and why did we have to talk, you know, and like it was Christmas.   - Liesel Mertes And I thought, like, I could see myself in those stories. And and there there is something to seeing the pain that is inflicted. Like it's it can't we cannot continue to imagine that they're just passing comments and feel like I'm just I'm just talking.   - Liesel Mertes And so, yeah, that I think there is there's a powerful thing that white viewers need to see with the spirit of inquiry of where am I in these stories, because there are enough that we will find ourselves there. And it's important.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors.  Our first sponsor is FullStack PEO, a benefits firm that comes alongside entrepreneurs and small businesses, helping them navigate the complex and time-consuming world of benefits choices.  Let FullStack PEO take care of your benefits choices so that you can give attention to running your business.  And, as a side note, I know the crew at FullStack personally and they just a lovely group of people.   We are also sponsored by my company, Handle with Care Consulting.  2020 has been like a train wreck that got hit by a hurricane…and it has been really hard to keep people engaged as they are going through sickness and homeschooling and general uncertainty.  Empathy is THE leadership skill of 2020.  You need it and you can learn it.  Handle with Care Consulting can help.  With keynotes, certificate programs, coaching options, and other creative solutions to meet your needs, let us help you make work a place that people want to come to when life is hard.   MUSICAL TRANSITION    - Liesel Mertes Cedrick, what is your working while black story?   - Cedrick Smith Oh, man. I mean, where do even begin? I mean I mean, yeah, I'm a practicing physician. You know, I've gotten anything from one in particular I talked to said, you know, how many stories are out there? I mean, I could go ad nauseam with that one in particular.   - Cedrick Smith So one day when I'm on medical assistant is crying in the break room and I went over and asked, or it's not something that we're going to sit and just kind of play like it doesn't exist. I'm going to sit down as the medical director and say, hey, look at you, OK, what's going on?   - Cedrick Smith She said, Dr. Smith, I'm tired of this. I'm like, well, what's what's happening is I'm tired of when patients come in and they ask, is it Dr.   - Cedrick Smith White or black? I'm like, OK. And I'm like, well, what what do you like? Well, he's black and then the patient will go, Well, is there a white doctor I can see? Was there another doctor I can see? And so I'm like, OK.   - Cedrick Smith I said, look, I mean, yeah, you're going to get that is excuse me is not the first time that I've experienced racism in the setting of being a doctor who happens to be black, you know, being a black doctor, but seeing the pain on her face, knowing how hard we worked to have the types of ratings that our clinic gets, like, you know, you probably Google Review us were like four point seven out of five.   - Cedrick Smith And we really take very much pride in that. And they know that it comes from all of us working very diligently and hard and making sure that the patient is treated well.   - Cedrick Smith And she, she also mentioned how she notices how when the patients come out from the visit with me, how happy they are, how they end up saying, like, wow, you know, he was really into my diagnosis. He really showed a lot of empathy and care, you know, and even gave me his card and said, like, you can call me 24 hours a day, you have a problem. These are types of things. It's just natural what we do and how we execute our patient care.   And so she see, so this doesn't happen to be a woman.   - Cedrick Smith She happened to see this kind of dichotomy between how they are when they first come in, when they're prejudging to having the actual visit to leaving and seeing this kind of duality of the racism on the front end and then having this wonderful experience with the doctor that they didn't want to see in the first place.   - Cedrick Smith And the only reason that they didn't want to see him was because, well, not knowing that the doctor was he or she knowing that this doctor was black. And so that that and I remember that date. I remember going into the restroom after I talked to her and I remember I cried. I just remember I was like because I didn't realize the kind of the micro trauma that even my staff was going through as they were trying to, quote, protect me or, you know, having to deal with this.   - Cedrick Smith And it just happened to the point for this particular person where, you know, it broke them. They were tired of seeing because they know what they mean to me.   - Cedrick Smith They know how hard we all work and how hard I work to to practice my craft. And so that's one. I mean, I remember being in a room one time, you know, I have my white coat on. Is this, you know, medical director, all the big name, everything. I'm talking to this guy and he I mean, literally for like five minutes, ask him questions about his.   - Cedrick Smith No problem. You know, what medications are you taking? Blah, blah, blah, going through the whole rigmarole. And he looks and says, wait, when is the doctor coming in? And I'm like, Mom, he wasn't blind yet.   - Cedrick Smith Twenty twenty vision. I'm like, I'm the doctor. And he just had this look on his face like, oh, and so I mean, I had one time where this one, this really hurt this, this was all of them hurt.   - Cedrick Smith But this is really painful because it was a child I was seeing a kid came in. The kid must have been three, four maybe, and was with the mother and nothing to get out like a sore throat.   - Cedrick Smith I was reading a chart kid, a little sore throat. So I walk in any time I know children are going to be in the room. I kind of want to come out a little more animation. You know, I'm kind of like big kid at heart. I love seeing children when they come in. I rarely see them in our urgent care setting. They typically take them now to urgent care pediatric locations, not ours. But occasionally I gets on well, anyway, this walk into the room and the little child goes, Mom, there goes a nigga like that.   - Cedrick Smith And and I and it the shock of my face.   - Cedrick Smith As I looked at the mom, I remember I kind of turned to when I said where, you know, trying to be funny, trying to diffuse it, trying to deal with it at the same time. And then the mom just looks at me like I don't know where she got that from.   - Cedrick Smith And so I went through the visit professionally. I saw the patient obviously treated her for her strep throat or otitis or earache.   - Cedrick Smith I'm sorry not to use medical terms or earache and treated, but I just remember going home that day and I just I just cried like a baby. In her I mean, now that was piercing that a three year old or four year old child that was, you know, you know, saying that I've worked all this way hard to get to where I am.   Cedrick Smith And at the end of the day, this is what I was reduced to from a three year old so that I   - Tosca Davis Don't forget about the symbols.   - Cedrick Smith I want to make sure you talk about, you know, when people, you know, undress and you see certain symbols on your body. Oh, yeah.   - Cedrick Smith No, I mean, I've had to see people who come in and have swastikas, you know, on it, just because you know what? I have to do a physical exam. I believe in doing a very thorough physical exam.   - Cedrick Smith We do it a little differently now because of COVID, because the touching and I may see 30 patients a day. We're little more different. If if it really doesn't want me doing a hard exam on this patient. I don't do it now just because we've got to use your stethoscope so many times and clean it off and you can miss something in, you know, transfer corona to somebody else.   Cedrick Smith I'm not going to do that.   - Cedrick Smith But in the normal setting, you know, I'm very thorough about doing examinations and people I've seen that. I remember one guy came in and he had a swastika around his chest. And I remember when he opened his shirt or opened his his gown for me to look at it. And it was like this moment of like he knew I saw it.   - Cedrick Smith You know, he knew you know, he knew that I knew exactly what it was, and it was just that moment of pause where I still had to stay professional.   - Cedrick Smith But, you know, a little bit of me was like, you know, you know, this this joking.    - Cedrick Smith You know, he I mean, I don't want to curse on the show, but, you know, every every bit of me had to be like, I can just put a rating on it or not not work.   - Cedrick Smith He didn't want me to, you know, look at him and take him out behind the building.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and and you one of one of the interviewees was I think at that point he was a doctor, but he was reflecting on his residency and talking about just even the denial of the, the title, like the purposeful way that that was withheld from him. You know, like there they call me by my first name or they'll call me mister. And these these things that, you know, like they're, they're signaling they're signaling something that is profound. And this is this is something I'm asking out of not out of my experience, but out of my intuition.   - Liesel Mertes I feel like the workplace is like it's generally a complex place to display sadness or grief.   - Liesel Mertes Anger oftentimes by white men is acceptable in, you know, even like you're saying, with a cursing, like it's acceptable in certain circumstances. But to be emotionally flooded in a way of anger, sadness, I'm I'm struck that it's it's hard in general. I feel like there are particular unspoken rules as to how black men and women are, quote unquote, allowed to feel angry or sad, like there are some pretty swift penalties or judgments that are placed on them.   - Liesel Mertes I’d love you to speak on that. If that has been your experience and if it has been to expand upon it or feel free to tell me I'm crazy if that hasn't been.   - Tosca Davis Well, yeah, I mean, I think that atrocities like. I was just going to say that, I mean, I know you asked and I know your podcast is specifically about the workplace, but, you know, we've been we've been taught that since birth. I have been very aware that I can't have certain behaviors.   - Tosca Davis I can't express certain feelings. I can't do things that, you know, the dominant white culture is allowed to do out in the open and free. I am in a place where I'm learning all of that. You're learning things because I'm learning things. Black people. You know, I my my plan is to to have full liberation. And so I am unlearning the oppression I'm learning. So I am when I'm loud, I'm loud. You know, as a child, you were told not to be loud or don't act like that in front of the white.   - Tosca Davis Folks don't do that in front of white folk. You know how white people look at you if you do that.   - Liesel Mertes And so, you know, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Just to flesh that out? Like what what were you hearing as a kid? Like, you know, that will get you in trouble?   - Tosca Davis Well, I won't. I'll say from my personal experience, I wouldn't get in trouble. And I and I want to be specific that that was my personal experience. I do know that there were certain families that you did have to act a certain way and you did get in trouble. But it was it was it was always I was always taught to kind of make yourself small.   - Tosca Davis That's what black people do. We make ourselves small so we won't be seen. So we won't be in the way. And then if you're a black woman, is the the, the teaching is supposed to be invisible. Don't be seen. Don't be heard. Make sure your hair is not wow. Which again, I go against everything which said I already told you when he first met me, my hair was big. I work in corporate America as someone with my natural hair.   - Tosca Davis I was one of the very few black women who who actually had the hair grow out of my scalp as the hair that I presented. And that is one of the things that when I was younger, we were taught to relax our hair to make sure that it was not big or not high. So everything all of that we're unlearning as adults. But but getting back to your point that definitely, you know, will bleed into the workplace. I remember reading about this lawyer who was he was he was a lawyer.   - Tosca Davis He was he was a big black bald guy. And just his body alone was intimidating. So he had to make sure that he was not loud, that he did speak. And this is an attorney where you need to be loud. You need to get into people's faces. You need to be aggressive. You need to tell people the law. And he had to make sure that he did not intimidate the white people, make sure that he was a scary to the white people.   - Tosca Davis So my entire life is making sure that I am that seen, that I'm not heard. And so, as as I've gotten older, I have released that. And you're going to get me I'm not going to code switch. And code switching is using a vernacular are using grammar that is more palatable to white people. I typically don't use that either. I talk the way I talk with black people because I'm not good at all. Of this is exhausting.   - Tosca Davis So you may be able to imagine if I have to change my speech, I have to make sure that I'm small and to make sure my hair is straight. I have to make sure all of these things are presentable and palatable to white people. How exhausting that is. So I stopped doing it. I have no longer doing any of that. You're going to get black Tosca and you've got to deal with it.   - Liesel Mertes That sounds exhausting on so many levels.   - Cedrick Smith Yes. And no, yeah, just to piggy back on it, I mean, it's the same way growing up is kind of like you don't really you don't really know how to process it when you're 10 or seven or five.   - Cedrick Smith You just know that it feels different that when we go over someone's house and have to be white folks, that mom was like overly or dad was like overly like, you know, when you get there, you can't do this, but you better sit still.   - Cedrick Smith But it just so it was always this kind of couching being couched in this whiteness.   - Cedrick Smith And in retrospect, you look at it as you're twenty five or thirty or whatever, you start and you start saying, like, man, that was so weird.   - Cedrick Smith You know, I want to be who I was. I could even dream like I want to dream, you know, it was almost like there's only to a certain point. I mean, you talk a lot in your podcast and regard to disruptive events and we all go through them as humans. That loss of a spouse, illness, sickness, whatever the case may be, whatever that disruptive, even the loss of a child or a child with a disability, whatever the case may be.   - Cedrick Smith But when you get the disruptive event in my life and I can speak for me is white supremacy, because when I look back at every stage of my life from being for you, from being in the fourth grade and and our teacher saying, hey, look, let's partner up.   - Cedrick Smith And you're thinking you're going to partner with one of your friends and you just kind of see the guy and and, you know, everybody's kind of grabbing hands.   - Cedrick Smith And then one kid leaves with white kids, says, you, I'm not part up with you. And you're like, wow, you know, we call it together. We do math problems together. And he looks at you and says, I'm not doing it because you're black. And you're sitting there in the fourth grade going what you like. How do you process that then in the seventh grade, you want to you're the best golfer in the junior golf in the area and you live a block away from the country club that you can join, that you can walk to every day and hone your game.   - Cedrick Smith You look in the fence, you see people playing golf and you're happy.   - Cedrick Smith You want to go do that. But you have friends who are members there. And you guys, hey, look, I like to come play the course and they just say, now you can't come play like we play basketball together.   - Cedrick Smith We play football together. We hang out together, going to ride our bikes together. Why can I come over here?   - Cedrick Smith And he looks and he said, what was my father's membership? And, you know, we can't have you there and you're in the seventh grade. You're 12, 13 years old. So again, it's this reboarding again.   - Cedrick Smith And when I'm 18 and when I'm 20, going for this interview, for this job and when I'm this, I get told so it doesn't end. So the disruptive part for me.   - Cedrick Smith Is the white supremacy, the white supremacy, and the microaggression is the microaggression of outright racism, to be quite honest with you, that I've had to deal with and I think that's what people don't realize is what we're bringing to the workplace before we even hit the door, before we even have to deal with some of the I want to say normal disruptive events that we all have.   - Cedrick Smith I have to deal with how my blackness is is is viewed. I have to make myself smile.   - Cedrick Smith I'm 6’4. I have to be a pretty good-looking guy, you know. But I do remember times where I had to make myself smile or my passion for a project or my passion for defending my workers and trying to get them raises or whatever the case may be, is seen not as being impassioned, but being angry.   - Cedrick Smith And being written up for that, do you like wait a minute, I mean, I've written up because, you know, you all did this to this coworker of mine and I'm just kind of fighting for them to get what they just deserve, being a part of an elite center, being a part of a team that does excellent work.   - Cedrick Smith So it's those types of instances I did a I did a presentation, I went to a conference, I saw the conference, I said, you know what? I'm sitting on the ice. And like, I can I can do a presentation here. If they're doing presentations like this, I know I can do one.   - Cedrick Smith So the following year, I want to do a presentation that happened to be on bias and happened to be on how to connect better with patients kind of using some of the tools that I use to help the other doctors understand, hey, this is how you can make your bottom line better by, you know, being more sticky with your patients, if you will, making them want to come back and being your marketing tool for you as they go out and tell how you need to go see Dr.   - Cedrick Smith Smith or go see Dr. Johnson, because they do this, this, this and this.   - Cedrick Smith Well, they put me on at five o'clock, which is the last presentation. And I said, OK, that's fine. I'm still going to do a great presentation. I end up doing a great presentation. No one left typically. Do you know about these conferences? People, if you've got a presentation at five o'clock, people are trying to run out the door, do the presentation when all of the the ratings come out. My presentation was rated number one at the highest ratings of all the presentations.   - Cedrick Smith So, after that, they had like a no excuse me. They after that they had a like a a gathering of all the doctors who presented and kind of like a social hour, happy hour type deal with drinks and so forth, little light bites. And when it the first thing when I walk in, one of the people were at the thing that was kind of over. It was kind of like, oh, here's the shining star, here's the Mister Presenter.   - Cedrick Smith But it was done in a very reductive manner. It was done with the sarcasm. Not like you really did a great job. That was awesome what you did. It was this kind of backhanded.   - Cedrick Smith You can't give me all the love that I know you would have given had Muskingum and white and I was blond hair and blue eyes and looked good. As I look. I know I wouldn't like all the star. No. And I was also told, hey, when you get back to your region, I want you to do that presentation in your region.   - Cedrick Smith Do you think I ever did that presentation? Do you think the guy that was over me let me do the presentation? He never did.   - Cedrick Smith He never did.   - Cedrick Smith And those are the types of things. That's the exhaustion. That's where you just sit back and go, hey, man, you know, what do I have to do?   - Cedrick Smith You know, how do I get rid of this this this being less than. And so it's a good thing, and that's what you see in the film   MUSICAL TRANSITION   This is the part of the show where I offer three key takeaways from the conversation.  And I’m still going to do that, but I want to remind you that this is just the first of a two-part series on working while black.  In our net episode, Cedric and Tosca will go deeper into the stories of the film, pulling back the layers on the many levels of exclusion that Black Americans face daily in the workplace. You can find out more about their film, the production company, and the details of Tosca’s story in the show notes.    Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Cedric and Tosca… There is power to just listening to someone’s story.That is what empathy is all about, giving another person’s story weight and space.  The stories that Cedrick and Tosca are telling are not what I daily experience in the workplace of America.  Which means that it is even more important that I listen carefully, without judgment and “what-abouts?” and second guessing.  If you are White, be aware of what was going on in you as a listener.  What sort of responses or defensive postures were coming out in you?  Full disclosure, they were happening in me too.  This is because we don’t like to hear that the world is not how we want it to be.  The next question, for me and for other White listeners, is to ask where these messages might originate from? The marginalization of Black Americans is not a one-off that just happens every now and then.As I listen to Cedrick and Tosca and the many, many participants in the To Be Us documentary, I hear how much of their life experience has been marked by the long shadow of normative whiteness.  The pain is deep and real.  And, as I mentioned in the interview, if you are White, you have contributed to the problem.  I have been dismissive of Kwanzaa.  I remember dancing with a really handsome Black boy at a party and asking him, “So, you must be good at football.  Aren’t all of you good at football?”  These microaggressions create a cumulative weight. If you are Black and listening to this episode, I hope that there is a heightened sense of community.  One of Cedrick and Tosca’s aims is to let Black people know that they are not alone and that they are not crazy.  Their film captures this ethos powerfully and I look forward to sharing more of it with you next week in Part 2 of this series on Working While Black. OUTRO   For more info on Tosca’s Working While Black Story:  https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=1052380424956777&story_fbid=1460604034134412   Learn more about To Be Us Productions:  https://www.tobeusproductions.com/  

- Char Simpson You've got to create this new normal. You just got to find what makes you happy. And create this new normal and what makes you happy may be almost very, very different from what it was with your husband, but it's just you. And so you you weren't meant to just be miserable. Life's going to be good.   INTRO My guest today is Char Simpson.  To her many Instagram followers, she is known as the Traveling Black Widow, an older, beautiful Black woman traveling the world…or traveling regionally during COVID, offering tips on great gifts to buy or personal health or the best places to eat in Nashville.  Char is classy with a little hint of sassy.  And today she is going deep, telling us about the love of her life, her soulmate, husband, and travel partner, Roy:  what she loved about him and what is was like to walk with him through cancer, to bury him, and to live, fully, a life she never would have chosen for herself.    As I mentioned, Char is also known as the Traveling Black Widow, a handle that her daughter Liz created for her.  As Char tells it, Liz got tired of sitting, one-on-one, looking through photos and thought that her mom could benefit from a larger audience.    - Char Simpson I had no idea what Instagram was. And I didn't really want to be on there because like a lot of people, I think my age, we feel like, well, I don't want everybody knowing my business and in my life and not realizing I had total control over that.   Char Simpson But it it sort of took off rather quickly. I was featured a picture of me on a boat in New Zealand at the Milford Sound that picture was featured on Travel Noir. And lots of people start following me then and so then know just sort of grew from there. But that was the first time I was ever featured and that was a pretty big online Instagram site. And and so that sort of launched me, really.   Char is also a court-appointed special advocate, a CASA, for two families   - Char Simpson I see the children monthly and sometimes there's court. There's other kinds of meetings with the other providers and people supporting the kids. And that has, you know, taken some of my time and been very, very gratifying for me before COVID and and during this lockdown time.   And, like a lot of us, she has spent a fair amount of Netflix recently, especially Bollywood films.  - Char Simpson And then it seems the way that Netflix has designed their programs, they are just so captivating. And when you get to the end, they go into the other one before you can stop yourself.   - Liesel Mertes Absolutely, they've got the psychology down.   - Char Simpson They really do. I just don't even understand what kind of marketing mentality came up with that, because it's pure genius.   Char and Roy first met in Cleveland.  She was a teacher who had just moved from Detroit, a city that she loved.  She wasn’t thrilled about the move and kept spending weekends back in Detroit.  Until all of that changed one Friday morning in the main office at the school.    - Char Simpson And this really, really handsome guy, young guy goes walking through. And so I asked the secretary, I was like, who's that guy? And says, Oh, that's Mr. Simpson. He's the basketball coach. Is he single? She's like, Yeah. I said, OK, right. So I thought, yeah, I told my department chairman because he had been trying to match me up with people from all over town. I was always having these blind dates in my department chairman had come up with.   - Char Simpson So I told him I saw this guy in the office this morning. And when I saw him, I just thought, wow, he's so handsome, he'd make beautiful children.   - Char Simpson And that actually was my thought standing there in the office. So anyhow, he said, we'll stay in town this weekend and Friday after school. We all go to Happy Hour. So instead of just driving right back to Detroit, one should go to happy hour with all the teachers. So anyhow, I went to Happy Hour. He called Mr. Simpson over to our table and introduced me and we chatted. And that was sort of the beginning of it.   - Char Simpson That evening I went to the school's football game and he was there and he ended up sitting over with our department and and from there just sort of took off.   They dated for two years before getting married.  Roy moved out of education and a job transfer brought the couple to Indiana.  Char sang in the choir at their church and Roy was an usher.     - Liesel Mertes What were some of the things that you just really enjoyed doing with one another?   - Char Simpson I would say most everything, just anything that we had to do, we just we really, really I do believe we're soul mates. I know some people don't believe in that term, but I really do. And we just enjoyed each other's company.   - Char Simpson He was not a person to have lots of guy friends. And so, I mean, he had some friends, but it wasn't like he wasn't hanging out with the guys and going to stuff with the guys.   - Char Simpson He could enjoy going to a football game with me, I think as much as he'd enjoy going to one with one of the guys. And so we did do just all kinds of things, you know, just within our marriage from just being at home, doing puzzles, jigsaw puzzles to going out, fishing together. When we dated, we went fishing a lot up around Cleveland. There are lots of really Great Lakes in Lake Erie. And so we did lots of fishing and just always spent a lot of time together.   - Char Simpson He was so, so, so helpful at home and he grew more helpful. My my daughter sometimes kids me about how I didn't do anything. And I told her it was a process over the years because I stayed home until she quit. When she was born, I stayed home till kindergarten. And so I said I didn't just stay home all day doing nothing, waiting for him to get there and do everything. But once once I went back to work, you know, we sort of shared chores.   - Char Simpson But he probably did more than the average husband. He was just really just a really great guy.   - Char Simpson And I think part of that was that his he had a twin sister and five other sisters. And so he was just raised in a home where the guys really looked out for the girls and with him having a twin, he said on his first day of kindergarten, his mom and dad really talked to him about you. Make sure you take care of Connie and you do this and you do that and make sure she has her book bag and her coat and just all these things.   - Char Simpson So he was always used to looking out for a woman.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I love that. That's really sweet. Family of origin can shape you.   - Char Simpson Yes, definitely.   By way of a sidenote, I interviewed Char’s daughter, Liz, in an earlier Handle with Care episode.  Liz is a dentist who was injured at work.  If you haven’t listened, make that your next listen…and I talk about her love for her dad, Roy.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I remember Liz talking even in her interview, and still she just your daughter carries with her such an impact that he had as a father in her life, you know, and just carrying that in a really powerful way.   - Char Simpson Yeah, yeah. He really was an amazing father. And she had a really rough time when he got sick and and when he died, I think she was it was is difficult while he was sick, as it was when he died for her.   Roy started to get sick in 2005.  His initial diagnosis was grim, just a few months.  In the end, he lived for two and a half years past his diagnosis.    - Liesel Mertes How did you feel when you first got the news?   - Char Simpson Oh, when I first got the news, I mean, I was absolutely devastated. You know, you go to the doctor and you know you know that it's something is just not right. And so you're expecting bad news and maybe even cancer because cancer really runs in his family. So you know that maybe there's cancer, but you never expect someone to say three to four months to live.   - Char Simpson That is just I mean, I I got goosebumps just now saying that again, because it's just the most shocking news. It's just the most shocking news.   - Char Simpson You walk into a doctor's office, one person, and you come out almost a widow named.   - Liesel Mertes What did a particularly challenging like day or moment like, as you think about those 30 months, what was a particularly hard time for you?   - Char Simpson Well, just. I guess maybe sleeping I think sleeping was was sort of difficult because, you know, you have when there's something on your mind or even you don't think it's on your mind and you wake up during the night, I don't know what it is about the human brain, but certainly for my brain, when I wake up during the night, I have the very worst thoughts, just horrible, horrible thoughts.   - Char Simpson And trying to get back to sleep was just so difficult. And sometimes I'd wake up because of a dream. You know, I would just dream that I was at a funeral or mainly I would sort of dream I was at his funeral or I was a dream. I was picking out coffins or something.   - Char Simpson And then your your psyche just wakes you up, you know, it just won't let you endure that for so long. So you wake up, then you're laying there, you know, and here's this person who, you know, sounds OK and seems OK.   - Char Simpson But to know inside all this is going on. And one day. Yeah, I am going to be at your funeral. It just I just think sleeping was just the worst part of it all for me.   - Liesel Mertes Oh yeah. Well and when you're not well rested, the challenge of meeting whatever the next day brings is all that much harder.   - Char Simpson Right. Right.   - Liesel Mertes What, what was did you feel like you had a community of people around you that during those 30 months were supportive and helpful?   - Char Simpson It was the most incredible time in my life. I normally have, you know, two or three really close girlfriends throughout life. I've not been a person with, you know, big crowds of girlfriends. I've always had, you know, two or three that were really close.   - Char Simpson And for some reason during that time, I had so doggone many girlfriends, you know, things that happened. I had been in a a group at church. This pastoral care counseling had been trained to become a counselor.   - Char Simpson And this other girl that was with me when we'd go out to visit family, she and I became so close. As a matter of fact, we were so close that when we went to the doctor appointment where we found out he had the three months to live, she was with us when I told her we were going to that this well, I'll go with you. And and my sister in law had told me also she'd just take someone with you when you go to the doctor to get this report so somebody can take notes on what the doctor says.   - Char Simpson Because my husband's sister, had she's been through all three or three or four of the siblings already dying from cancer. So she sort of knew the ropes on it. And so she said, take a friend.   - Char Simpson So I took this friend and she was just she was just the most valuable resource and all. She was just so great. And I just I don't know.   - Char Simpson Neighbors somehow became friendlier neighbors. You know, you just wave at the mailbox. Well, all of a sudden, you know, they're dropping by. And that whole 30 months, there were just I had this enormous support group.   - Char Simpson It was so amazing.   - Char Simpson Oh, that's so amazing, because some of the people I actually have not even seen since after his funeral. Yeah. And, you know, and yet, you know, during that time, you know, somebody would oh, like one day I got home from work and we've got a pretty big yard and lots of trees. And I mean, there were leaves every that first fall that October when we were when he was just feeling so weak and couldn't get the leaves or anything.   - Char Simpson And it had to have been after the diagnosis. It must have been the next fall anyway. And I mentioned to one of the guys that were, you know, taught in the classroom next to me, and I said something about, oh, my gosh, you know, my husband, he's just so weak. And all this is the I pass by your house the other day. So you guys got a lot of leaves. I was like, yeah, yeah, we've got to, you know, got to do something about that.   - Char Simpson That afternoon, I get home from work late and here are a bunch of guys from my school, some of the male teachers at my school out in my yard raking leaves. One of us got this mower he's doing leaves there about four or five guys. He lived close to me. The other guys didn't even I didn't actually even know where they lived, but he had organized this thing of getting our leaves up. And I don't know, away just sobbing, I was like, boy, I'm looking forward to all these people raking leaves.   MUSICAL TRANSITION Open enrollment season is here, which means that you are facing lots of options and, potentially, lots of questions about your benefit plans for 2021.  Which is where FullStack PEO can help.  If you are an entrepreneur or small business owner, let FullStack handle the complex, shifting world of employee benefits so you can get back to work.  I’m a big fan of the people at FullStack and the work that they do to bring care to your people.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting, my company.  With interactive workshops, certificate programs, and coaching sessions on empathy, resiliency, and hard conversations, we help you make work a place that people want to come to when times get tough.  And now, back to the episode   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes Will you tell me a little bit more about what his final days were like for you?   - Char Simpson It is just so painful to watch someone who has been this handsome man that you saw across a crowded room and to see him go down to skin and bones and lose his spirit, you know, just become a real quiet kind of person.   - Char Simpson And just all the changes that someone goes through, I think especially when they battle cancer and they really just want to keep going and they keep plodding along. Being there alongside for me and my personality was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life.   A few months before he died, Roy and Char went down to Florida for spring break.    - Char Simpson And so we had gone up to Amelia Island and there was a place there where you could arrange these deep sea fishing trips. And so we we were staying in Ponte Vedra, which was, I don't know, maybe 40 minutes from there.   - Char Simpson Anyway, we drove up one day to check out, you know, get signed up and see the situation for the deep sea fishing. And on the way back, he was like, oh, sure, these roads were we on?   - Char Simpson And I was like, we should stay on this one. And he was sort of like getting lost driving.   - Char Simpson And we were just on the main freeway that went right to our hotel.   - Char Simpson And so that was sort of disturbing because the next morning when he got up to go for the deep sea fishing, he he was going to go alone while he came back early morning. And I was like, hey, what happened? And he's like, I don't know, I couldn't find my way up there. And I was like, What you've got? Oh, my gosh, what about the maps and the brochures?   - Char Simpson And he's like, I could I don't know, I just couldn't find my way up there. So it's like, I don't know. I just didn't feel like doing so. He had come back.   - Char Simpson Well, that I mean, my heart was just beating heart in my chest because it's like, oh my God, how could he not read the map? And, you know, and yet he could drive. He could see. And it's like, I don't know, I just was almost just in a panic and trying to stand there and look cool.   - Char Simpson But anyway, we came on back home and also while we were in Florida, the thing to that was just breaking my heart when we would go out to dinner. Sometimes one night he was like, you know, I'm just I'm not terribly hungry. And I had ordered chicken wings. He's like, I just have one of your wings. I was like, what am I, wings? One of these, like, you know, just let's just split to order a chicken wings.   - Char Simpson And for a grown man, six two to split ordered chicken wings. Yeah, it was like, oh, God, what's going on? What is going on?   - Char Simpson And anyway, so we flew home Sunday, the next Saturday, that Saturday morning.   - Char Simpson He always woke up real early and he made coffee and always just brought me up a cup of coffee. Well, when he walked in the room with the cup of coffee for me, he walked into the to the post the bedpost and coffee went everywhere.   - Char Simpson And he was like, oh, my God. And as he was walking and he says, I just took your coffee into the guest room, I was like, you know, and anyhow, he walks into the bedpost and that moment, I know. This is it. This is it. And I called 911. I said, know my husband is just walked into a bedposts and he but he can see and anyhow they came out, went to emergency room and that's when they found cancer had spread to his brain.   - Char Simpson As long as it was it was everywhere.   - Char Simpson It was everywhere. And so what I had been seeing in Florida was just all indicative of the beginning of the end. And it was, you know, he went downhill. That was April 12th, that Saturday morning. And and he died June 30th.   - Char Simpson Mhm. So that's when you just sort of couldn't battle when it gets to that point, you know, you're just just sort of everyday going down a little bit.   - Char Simpson So that was the those were the worst weeks of my life. It was absolutely horrible. His sister came up. His twin sister came and stayed for a little while so I could finish out the school year.   - Liesel Mertes And in the end, it just was downhill from that point. Yeah, well, and I. There is walking with someone through their dying. And then there is the reality of looking at life that extends beyond them.   - Liesel Mertes What, what sort of feelings? We're confronting you the day after his funeral as you woke up as a widow.   - Char Simpson Well, that's pretty horrible. I'm. I guess I almost I don't know, I'll have to think for a moment how I really felt, just the part, I guess that does not so horrible.   - Char Simpson It's like once everybody's gone, it's a friend of mine, my best friend from college. She came down and she was here for a long time and she stayed after the funeral for about a week. So, you know, we would go out and have lunch and, you know, do things. So, you know, I think she was just really deliberately trying to keep me really active. And and my daughter had had to go somewhere or I don't know if she went back for a summer program at school or something, but she had ask my friend to stay in town with me and just give me some time to transition to the empty house.   - Char Simpson And and when my friend did leave that next week, then it was I mean, the house is just so silent. It's so sad. It's I haven't had that kind of intense sadness again in life that I had that whole summer.   - Char Simpson I mean, I would I would try to get up and move around because I'm the kind of person that for me, walking is therapeutic. So I would try to get up and go out for a walk and just walking down the street and passing a neighbor's house that maybe he always chatted with or somebody driving by see me and they stopped the car.   - Char Simpson You know, they look over Charlotte, how are you? Well, then I burst out crying. I hate when people would say, how are you? That was just. Oh, gosh, just the worst. Or if I go to I know one day I went to Target and one of my coworkers like Charlotte and we're having this bubbly conversation. I'm all great. And then he's like, Now, Charlotte, tell me, how are you?   - Char Simpson Well, when he said that, like, open the floodgates, I mean, there's something so loud that he's like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so so people are walking by looking at me. It was so embarrassing. And I did that for the longest. For the longest.   - Char Simpson You know, you can be so composed and think, OK, I'm going to go to church. And if someone says, how you doing? I'm going to I'm going to keep it all in. And it's always that person that sort of sneaks up on you that you are expecting them because the conversations going merrily along and then they turn like, so tell me. Right.   - Char Simpson I really feel and I don't know just when people would say that I couldn't hold it in.   - Liesel Mertes Did you did you leave those interactions like at church or target thinking? I wish they never would have said anything.   - Char Simpson Yes. Yeah, yeah. Because I would even really, like, avoid people, you know, I would just sort of, you know, if I saw somebody sort of coming my way because like at work, it was so bad. It was really bad.   - Char Simpson Because if, you know, if you went in the mailroom, you know, all the the teachers mailboxes and stuff. And so you're in there, you happen to be the only person. And then someone comes in in like, oh, I heard about your husband this summer. I'm so, so sorry. How are you? Yeah. Oh, man. Now here I am in the mail room. I make up for getting what I love. It was just that was the spot.   - Liesel Mertes So the how are you did not feel supported. That felt like something that kind of derailed you. What were things that you would say this this actually was helpful? Like this was a good thing that people did to support me.   - Char Simpson Hmm, well, I don't think they meant to derail me, it just did, you know, because I've sort of learned from that one. I'm talking to someone who's lost someone to not go into that deep. So how are you?   - Char Simpson I know how that just pierces your heart, but there were just maybe nice notes that people would send and, you know, that you could see in private and deal with in private or I don't know, this sounds probably so weird,   - Char Simpson But I just really liked when people kept it sort of lighthearted. Yeah. You know, and they were just lighthearted because one morning out of when I was at the mall in the some friend of his, this lady who was also a friend of mine, that they had worked together and they were really close.   - Char Simpson And and so I passed by just like, hey, how are you doing? I'm like, fine, great. Well, you look great. So you must be great. And then she kept going great.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, and I, I hear also some of the dynamics of different personalities in that moment, too, and tell me tell me if this sounds like it fits, but that sense of being put on the spot all of a sudden with people and really that that felt it sounds uncomfortable to you of like, "don't don't put me on the spot to have to go through all of that right now." Like it caught you off guard in ways that really felt, you know, uncaring, even if they didn't intend it to.   - Char Simpson Yeah, I guess maybe that was the element of it, that that just doesn't quite fit with my personality. Maybe just as a control person being very controlling. I didn't appreciate or it's not that I didn't appreciate because I knew they were caring, but it's just that it didn't work well for me to just have that on me like that.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and especially if it was going to ruin your makeup like the one I'm already dealing with this hard thing. Yeah.   - Char Simpson And it you know, it's just it's so hard because you have expected your life to go a particular direction. And and it just it just like this wasn't the plan at all. I mean, I felt like my husband probably would die before me. And and I think a lot of women, we sort of know statistically that that probably will happen. So we're prepared to be a widow someday like it. Eighty something. Eighty five, but not as a younger you like.   - Char Simpson My husband was 60 when he died. Well, I certainly did not expect to be a widow.   Char and Roy would travel a lot.  They thought that, in retirement, maybe they would rent and RV and explore or go to California.    - Char Simpson So every year we were going someplace around the country to see is this where maybe we'd like to live when we retire? So once again and   - Char Simpson I know single women retire in other places, but I haven't been able to figure out where I want to retire by myself other than just here in my house. So I'm still right here in Indianapolis.   - Char Simpson I have no place in mind that I might want to move. For retirement, I don't know, I just doesn't seem like a fun thing to me to move to another city where I don't know anyone and have to meet a lot of new people all by myself.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, the recalibrating of what for so long had been a together thing.   - Char Simpson Yeah. Yeah. And as long as he's been gone, I still have not decided on a place that I'd want to relocate.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I imagine also in the dailiness like in any marriage there, there tends to be like a rough kind of division of tasks. You know, even like you said, he would bring you coffee in the morning. Did you find yourself as a newly widowed person confronted by his absence? In a lot of ways, like, oh, I didn't have to do this because Roy used to do this, but now I need to.   - Char Simpson Oh, my gosh, there were just so many things because he really like I said over the years, he became more and more giving. And I would like to think I did, too. I mean, he never had to pick out a stitch of his clothes, and yet he was most well dressed men in town because I love shopping and shopping in the men's department for all his stuff, too. But he did. He didn't mind doing stuff around the house and he did a lot.   - Char Simpson So there were so many things that I had to learn. And a friend of mine has a home and she's never been married and she's a homeowner. And so I would have to call her all kinds of times about just different things and well, who do I call to get this repaired? Or one time there was the scratching sound in the in the master in my bedroom behind the fireplace, you could hear that an animal somehow was behind the wall there in the bedroom like two o'clock in the morning.   - Char Simpson And I was just sitting there like, oh, my God, who do I call? What do I do?   - Char Simpson And I end up calling my beautician because she has this uncle that she's always talking about. Uncle Benny and Uncle Benny do everything I said. OK, I'll call Angel and ask her what Uncle Benny know what this could be scratching on the wall of my bedroom at 2:00 in the morning.   - Char Simpson And so, like the next morning, Uncle Benny came to my house and came up and he looked around the house and it turned out it was a raccoon. And so I had to get a service and all that dealt with getting raccoons out of your house. He was out it wasn't out in the house. So you could see it, but he was within the behind the drywall. So it was just stuff where I never knew who to call. It was just it was horrible.   - Char Simpson It was so horrible. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I imagine those are the moments like you don't prepare for them. They just catch you off guard where you think, oh, yeah. Here's one more reminder ride of my life being different than I thought it would be.   - Char Simpson Absolutely. Because you prepare, I think, at least for me, you do prepare financially because you you know, it does hit you like, wait a minute, I'm going to be living off of one income. You know, when you do start thinking about that, you know, I didn't want to discuss it with people because I didn't want anyone to think that I'm thinking about him dying. But I would start reading articles or watching Suze Orman and stuff and just to at least be prepared financially, like, how am I going to handle this?   - Char Simpson What am I going to do? But the other things and I think probably anybody who naturally would think financially to have that figured out, but other stuff like home repairs and oh, just there's just so many things that come at you like that summer. I don't know why I always think of this, but it bothered me so much. A friend called and invited me. She was having a big cookout, I guess that maybe it was Labor Day weekend.   - Char Simpson And so she called in and it was a pitch-in you brought a dish and all that. And she's like, and I want you to come. And I was like, OK, let me think about it. When I was at that point, still crying too much, really be around a lot of people. But when I thought about it, it's like I don't I couldn't remember when I had gone to a cookout alone.   - Char Simpson Right. I could not picture myself driving to her house, getting out of the car, taking a decision. I don't know. And I know it's not a big deal. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this think, well, that's no big deal. That was the biggest deal to me. Yeah. I just couldn't picture going to a cookout by myself.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it gives voice to those little moments like life is made up of like their little moments that are big moments because it's just where it hits home exactly like you said, this reflection of it's been it's been decades since I've done this   - Char Simpson Right, I step into all of these places, which because I was getting my nails done and I was telling my nail tech, I said I'm invited to a cookout. Saturday, I sit in. I haven't been to a cookout by myself in so long, I said I just and then all of a sudden I start sobbing there with her and she's like, well, you haven't been don't you know, just go ahead. Don't worry about it. But that I will never forget how upset I was at the thought that she really was expecting me to come.   - Char Simpson And it's like, do you have any idea the last time I walked into a cookout by myself.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the other misconceptions that people have about life as a widow or or something that you say? I just wish people like I wish I could flip the switch and people could just get this about what it is to be a widow. Like, I wish I didn't have to explain it, OK?   - Char Simpson I definitely know how I feel. I feel very strongly that I feel my husband, as I said earlier, my husband and I really we're soulmates and I do not believe that there is another soulmate on the planet for me. Some people seem to think maybe there is. I don't think so. I figure, you know, soul mate, that's the singular. You get one and that's it. And so when people ask if I'm dating or they feel like, oh, but, oh, you know, all your Dunedoo should be dating or you just seem like such a lively, fun person and oh, there's the you should go and they start naming websites that I should go to and it's like I have no desire to date to.   - Char Simpson I really don't have any desire to have male companionship. Yeah. I just absolutely. And nobody ever can believe it.   - Char Simpson I feel like I had 31 years with the man who was crazy about me, worshipped the ground I walk on did everything in the world for me. It's not going to get any better than that. And, and even if somehow it was going to get any better than that, I am at total peace. Total joy right here with just doing my thing, enjoying my solitude.   - Char Simpson I just have no desire for another guy. I mean, if some if somehow I don't know, you know, if I met a guy and then we were super, super, super compatible, I wouldn't just say, oh, I don't want to be bothered with you. But as far as actually putting forth any effort whatsoever, this entire time that I've been a widow, I've never put forth any effort. I just have no desire for it.   - Liesel Mertes What helped you in the process? Because, you know, social media always is just a partial reflection of truth, but you do seem to live very fully even as you talk about your life. Now, what has been important for you in moving towards a normal that is more than just overwhelmingly sad?   - Char Simpson Well, I think. That having been overwhelmingly sad for so long, I did at one point just and I didn't want to date or anything and but I just thought I just don't like being this down and this just that down all the time.   - Char Simpson And so I did talk with my doctor about it. And and because I found myself sort of, I don't know, becoming a little bit irritable because probably because of my lack of sleep. Yeah. And and so anyhow, I talk with my doctor and she did recommend a medication.   - Char Simpson And I'm really glad that she did, because I think that helped me too, at times when I was just really irritable and crabby and just couldn't go to sleep. She did suggest sleeping medication and I did it with Ambien and I took an Ambien.   - Char Simpson And that first night I woke up at 12 and I never got back to sleep again. Oh, no, never. And I had to go to work the next morning with, like, you know, two, two and a half hours sleep.   - Char Simpson So I knew that I was going to be one of the Ambien horror stories, so had a different kind of way. And so, anyhow, my concern just was just sort of the irritability. I thought, OK, I can get to sleep. So I'm kind of okay. But I, you know, just something. So I'm not so edgy so much of the time. And so then she did just recommend and got me a prescription just for Xanax to use, just as needed.   - Char Simpson And I think it was this one class that I had at the time that was very, very, very challenging to a group of kids to deal with. And, and so I would, you know, like take a half a Xanax just before them, because it's like this is just wipe me out. Yeah. When it was absolutely life changing. Absolutely life changing and I'm not trying to, you know, push drugs on people, but as a counselor for so many years and as a teacher, I have seen children's lives totally changed when they did take the correct medication for whatever need they might have had.   - Char Simpson And so that's why I was open minded when she said, you know, maybe just something just to sort of take the edge off. So you aren't just, you know, just so edgy and irritable and all this.   - Char Simpson And so I honestly would say that Xanax just sort of turned my life around during that time and gave me control of my mind and able to just sort of calm down, think through, not be so edgy, not be, you know, just burst out crying at the drop of a hat and just get control of my life.   Yeah. Helped you. Well, as you said, feel the capacity for a reality beyond that. Right. Redness. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Are there are there things that as people have been your friends in this new season of widowhood that have been really helpful for you?   - Char Simpson People just tried to get me out of the house and doing things. And I appreciated that because I didn't have the energy to initiate anything or the energy to even I mean, I would go to movies, I've always gone to movies, but as far as like there were just things I didn't want to do alone. Right. Just absolutely didn't want to do alone. So it was nice when even a married girlfriend, you know, would would do something like on a Friday or Saturday night.   - Char Simpson Right. Go out of their way to see for you. You didn't have to do all the logistics you mentioned in passing.   - Liesel Mertes And I imagine this could be really true. But I'd love for you to unpack it a little bit more. Couple friends that fell by the wayside. Did that feel painful? Did it happen all at once? How did that feel for you?   - Char Simpson Well, you know, I had read about that in, you know, in fiction novels and didn't know how very real it was, but I just found it to be very real. They just just sort of disappeared. Hmm. And I can't think other than the friend with the bat invited me for the cookout. Couple friends just did not invite me by myself to something they were having, especially when they were going to be other couples, when it was going to be all couples.   - Char Simpson No, there's you're just not I was not invited.   - Liesel Mertes Did you realize that that was happening in real time? Like, imagine that can feel kind of painful if you hear that they've all got together or like, did it did it feel hard as it was happening or did it just kind of happened gradually?   - Char Simpson I guess it's sort of hard, but then I guess I just heard about it or seen it in movies or books or something, so I knew that it could happen, but it still was a little surprising. But then to. You just sort of noticed, and this sounds really I don't know how it sounds, but I'll just say it, you just sort of notice that it just seems like maybe wives get a concern that, you know, you're used to having a husband around and you are not going to be over here looking at my husband because you're just used to having a house.   - Char Simpson I don't know. It's just a it's a weird kind of vibe that you sort of sense that it is OK, like shortly maybe, I don't know, maybe that fall, you know, when might start being a problem.   - Char Simpson And I didn't know mice were a problem. I guess my husband always took care of that. And so anyhow, when in the attic one day and I see these mice droppings, I'm like, oh my gosh. And I notice there's mice traps and like, oh, OK. So he had been dealing with the mice in the attic and I didn't know that. So I went and bought traps and at the store they showed me how to set a trap.   - Char Simpson I get home. I can't figure out how to set the trap. So I called a friend of mine down the street, ask her, it's like, you know, have said a mouse traps like. No, I said. And so I ask her. Her husband was like, he does not a surprise. And I was like, oh, OK. But they have mice too. So I'm like, who's setting their mice traps?   - Char Simpson  So she didn't want him. Yeah, she didn't want him to come down and set my mouth.   - Char Simpson So I was like, I know that was the first one. I was just like, oh, this is interesting. Everybody in the neighborhood has mice and nobody's husband sort of set mousetraps, almost like you had had a place within that ecosystem, like a roll ride your husband.   - Liesel Mertes You're kind of a bogey and the rules of interaction had shifted.   - Char Simpson Yeah, I do. Yeah.   - Char Simpson Yeah. So the mouse trap, I think was maybe the first thing. And then after that there would just be actually that one was such a slap in the face. I don't know that I really ask too many other people because I just thought, well, OK, I think that's my introduction to Widow 101.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Char Simpson Understand your finances. I've met women who whose husbands did everything. I mean everything. And they had no idea the balance on their home. They had no idea if the house was even paid off. They didn't know what their gas bill was. They knew nothing at all. And I have found that those widows have a very, very hard time because, you know, for me, I was dealing with just the emotions of he's gone and I miss him and that I knew about the budget.   - Char Simpson I knew about the money. I knew, you know, that I was going to be OK. But if you have no idea about you don't know where things are. That would just really, really add to the whole grieving process. I, I just can't imagine how much it would add because you don't even know what you don't know.   - Char Simpson A piece of advice I got that was was so beneficial and I had read and then various people told me that don't make any major decisions for six months. And because once again, like I said, how my head was just so fogged up that I just didn't feel like I was thinking wisely or clearly. And and you really aren't. You know, when I look back on those months, it's like, oh, my gosh, who was I? It's like you aren't thinking clearly. So don't make any kind of major decisions.   - Char Simpson A co-worker of mine lost her husband and she sold the house maybe the second month after he died. She just couldn't stay in there alone. And she sold the house. And within a year, she went and made an offer to the people to buy the house back and bought the house.   - Liesel Mertes Any words of wisdom to offer for the journey as they look ahead to this next season of life?   - Char Simpson Well, they will get through it. They will it won't be the same, but life will go on, it will be it will still be a great life, just a very different great life than what you pictured. If you thought you were going to be spending most of your life with that person and you will enjoy yours, you'll grow to enjoy yourself if you want to, that you'll really, really enjoy yourself more and grow more as a person if you choose to.   - Char Simpson It's sort of what you decide you want to do. And, you know, do you want to find another guy, you know? And if you do, then I would just say put your whole heart into it, give it a hundred and fifty percent and find another one. But if you want to just grow yourself and not plan on meeting someone else or whatever, then just start living your own life, try to even do some things alone.   - Char Simpson If you've got a lot of girlfriends, just, just you've got to create this new normal. You just got to find what makes you happy. And create this new normal and what makes you happy may be almost very, very different from what it was with your husband, but it's just you. And so you you weren't meant to just be miserable. Life's going to be good. It's going to really be great again. You just got to figure out what makes it great, what do I like to do?   Char Simpson And it's sort of a fun kind of thing in that you can be so, so selfish now and so self-centered. You're totally self-indulgent.   - Char Simpson Just whatever you want to do, you just do you and do it to the max.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   There were so many nuggets of insight from today’s conversation, but here are 3 that I want to highlight as take-aways.   Listen and then act.I loved the story that Char shared about the men that came to rake her leaves.  This sort of attuned, meaningful action comes through careful attention:  identifying a need and then showing up to meet it.  Where are places that you can show up, metaphorical rake-in-hand, to make a difference for someone that is going through a hard time? Your empathy needs to be attuned and adaptive to the person in front of you.Not everyone wants to be asked how they are doing.  Char shared about how this left her crying and suddenly swamped by emotion in places like Target.  Char appreciated a card or a compliment much more than the heavy, “How are you?” Becoming a widow can be full of unexpected moments full of emotion:the first cook-out invite where you are solo, the critter in the drywall that you don’t know how to deal with, the wife that begins to view you with suspicion because you no longer have a husband by your side.  If you are a friend of someone who is living as a widow, ask yourself how you might come alongside your friend with a kind word or an invite to a movie as they go through these ancillary losses.    OUTRO You can find Char on IG at: https://www.instagram.com/travelingblackwidow And you can listen to her daughter, Liz Simpson, on the Handle with Care podcast at: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/handlewithcare/Final_Liz.mp3 

    Liesel Mertes It's been a pretty eventful and emotional week and a half in my house now with six people in the house. There's always high emotion throw into the mix that two of my children are preadolescents. And you can guess all of the back and forth that go on. But this last week and a half has had some particular inflection points. We had a beloved family pet die.   We've been quarantined because of a possible COIVD diagnosis. And there's just been a lot of general stress in the ER. So today, I want to take a break from our normal cycle of interviewing a guest and having them talk about a disruptive life event to just give you some real talk about empathy and October 2020 in the thick of the COVID pandemic,   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Liesel Mertes Now, there are a number of you who might know me just as the voice behind the Handle with Care podcast interviews. But I actually have a broader business outside of this. I'm a workplace empathy consultant. And what that means is I help companies and individuals come alongside people in their workplaces to help them survive, stabilize and thrive as they go through disruptive life events.   One of the ways that I do this is I teach them about these empathy avatars. These are these identities that we can take on. They're shaped by all kinds of things. They're shaped by your culture of upbringing. They're shaped by your personality. And they are the tool kit that you go to to respond out of when people are going through a hard time. So some of the names of these characters are people like Commiserating. Candice, you're always sharing your own hard story or Cheer Up Cheryl.   Liesel Mertes And I want to share with you in today's episode two things that happened in the stress of the last week and a half.     And I want to we've you know, usually we have three takeaways that are always at the end. I want to weave the three takeaways throughout my comments and tell you how I found myself responding during these times of high stress and anxiety, hopefully connect with you. OK, so first I want to talk about this COVID diagnosis, so my son Magnus, he goes to the nurse's office more than any of my other children.   I think he likes the care that's there. He's very in tune with pain and his body. And I sent him off to school on Monday and he was experiencing some sinus congestion, no fever.   Liesel Mertes   I gave him a Claritin, but he was tired and he headed off to school till around nine 30. I received a call from the nurse. I'm in the middle of a training and I get this call from the nurse who tells me she has Magnus in the nurse's office and she thinks that maybe there's a chance that he has COIVD. Now, I'm really glad that people are taking COVID seriously, that they are all of these procedures in place in schools.   Liesel Mertes And she told me that he checked off enough boxes that he needed to go to a 10 day quarantine unless he came back with a negative COVID test.   So baseline, this is sad news, my hope Magnus does not have covered, but really my first response was just to be so frustrated that I was being called into the nurse's office.   Liesel Mertes What was this going to mean for me, for my schedule, for all of the things we had planned for the other children for the rest of the week, if we all had to quarantine? And I find myself just being irritated. And frankly, I was so glad that I was wearing a mask in the nurse's office so she couldn't see all of the aggravation and irritation that I was feeling towards my son manifest on my face. So I have to go.   I have to pick him up. And as we're walking to the car, I find myself going full on Buck-Up Bobby, which is one of these empathy avatars that I introduce people to Buck-Up Bobby wants you to be able to tough it out because that's what he expects of himself and that's what he expects of you.   Liesel Mertes And as I was walking out to the car, here's what I find myself saying to my son, Magnus “Magnus, I can't believe that you can't deal with any pain or discomfort in your body.”   “All you had was a headache and a stuffy nose. You have it all the time this time of year with your allergies.” And I just read him the riot act. Do you know now that we're going to have to go get you tested and do all kinds of things?   And I'm so frustrated with you and I'm not proud of this, but I mean, he was he was in tears by the time we got home. This poor kid who is not feeling good anyway. And I really had to reflect on this because it was a parenting failure moment. And lots of times I work with companies, I work with H.R. executives or managers, and this little microcosm of an interaction is playing out in workplaces all the time because, frankly, it's inconvenient to the business of business to have someone going through a hard time to have to extend them care, to have to pause in the normal workflow and care for them.   Liesel Mertes And sometimes, truly, it's easier to care for people who are fathers. Here's your take on point number one. Sometimes we treat people who are further away from our sphere of influence better than we treat people who have a direct effect on our schedules and our workflow.   So for me, it's way easier to show empathy and care if doing that doesn't affect or inconvenience the details of my life. But Magnus felt inconvenient. He was creating a lot more work for me, and I went right into a default response system. Takeaway point number to interrogate your own experience when you find yourself going into these default behaviors, ask why am I treating this person this way? Because this is something I had to do, I'm reflecting on my own experience.   Liesel Mertes Oh, my gosh, I'm someone who teaches and practices empathy towards other people. I know how important this is. I actually love my son and I don't want to make him cry. Why am I doing this?   Buck-Up Bobby is one of the avatars that I go to for those of you who have been through training with me. I also can be a Fix-It Frank or a Commiserating Candice. More on those perhaps in another episode. But as I interrogate my own experience, here's what I find. So, part of this comes from my household of origin. This was a super important message that was given to me that I was part of a family where you could do hard things and that that mattered.   Liesel Mertes And, in fact, that that was an important part of being an adult, that you needed to be able to do hard things. And we weren't whiners. My dad modeled this. We celebrated this in conversation as we talked about our days are things that we liked about ourselves and had an even deeper level.   I was a kid who was just like Magnus. I was a kid who loved going to the nurse's office. I liked being taken care of. I got easily bored in class. I would make up kind of these, you know, phantom sorts of maladies that would get me sent home when I didn't really have a fever. And I can even remember my mom telling me how inconvenient this was. Was there a part of my own self judgment or shame that I picked up that I'm now taking out on Magnus?   As you interrogate your own experience, realize that the voice that goes on in your own head is often the energy that you are directing at other people. And as I look at that experience, I think I can ask myself as an adult, is resting really wrong? Does that really mean that I'm a failure? Does it mean that Magnus is a failure? And as I examine that experience, I can say, you know what? Magnus is an 11-year-old kid doing what?   Liesel Mertes 11-year olds doing what I as an 11 year old did. And maybe he doesn't need to fully model all these, you know, adult aspects of being able to push hard and persevere. And maybe those aren't even the highest values. And I'm treating him with a lack of empathy because of the messages that go on in my own head. So some reflections from the COVID experience with Magnus, I'm going to share one more story with you that will lead to a third take on point and reflection that will perhaps be helpful for you as you are interacting with and managing others.   And this has to do with the death of our beloved pet. So, by a strange confluence of circumstances, we ended up bringing bunnies into our home for a long time in life. If you're a parent of young children, you might resonate with this energy. There was no way I was getting a pet at all while my kids were in diapers like no.   Liesel Mertes And finally, a few years ago, we got a really low-key rescue dog already, you know, good with children already housetrained.   And I thought, this is a pet we're going to have. But the children wanted something a little bit cuddlier and we brought bunnies into the home. And these three bunnies were wonderful. They're so great to hold at the end of a stressful day. And especially the bunny. Bluebell was just such a lover. And I had a bunny as a kid. I had a very typical non cuddly bunny. But Bluebell was the best. Bluebell belonged to Jemima.   The neighborhood kids loved Bluebell. She would just sit and receive stroking and attention. She was spectacular.   Liesel Mertes But remember, I also have a dog, this rescue dog, who is a predator through and through and on Friday of last week was able to open the side of the rabbit cage and was playing with the bunny. There were no puncture marks by this bunny was so terrified that it went into shock and died. Really sad. There was a communal burial service by the neighborhood kids. There was working through the sadness and all of the triggering emotions with my children as it related to feelings about the death of their youngest sister, Mercy.   I mean, this deep stuff, things like this, bring up really deep waters for me, for my children. This all happened over the weekend. The same child, Magnus, goes to school on Monday and they're doing a weekend catch up in one of his classes as students will do, and this teacher up front asks, So who has the story from their weekend?   Liesel Mertes Magnus, who is a this was right before he went to the nurse's office to go home. But he's not he's a really emotionally in touch young man. And he raises his hand and he said, well, my sister's bunny died over the weekend. And right away, this teacher cut him off and says, no, no, no, sorry. That's too sad. We only want happy stories. We'll return to that in a moment, because Magnus's chastened and he he's been cut off, but a little bit later, maybe about five or 10 minutes later, Magnus is again sharing in a general sharing time.   And now he knows he's not supposed to share about his sister's dead bunny, but he's just sharing about his buddy who's still alive. And he says, you know, my, my bunny is this type of bunny. It's so cute. And the same teacher cut him off and says, Do you know what my favorite type of bunny is? A dead fried bunny. And then he moves on and changes the subject and Magnus is telling me about this at the end of the day, and I am so saddened and horrified because this teacher is manifesting another avatar that you either we can either call Joking Julie or a Jackass Jared, because the same sort of energy comes from both of them.   Liesel Mertes This is the type of person that their response to somebody else's pain or to their own pain is to minimize it and close off a painful interaction by making a joke or by just pretending that everything is OK and it happens. A ton in male interactions is not only a male, you know, characteristic, but especially happens in groups of guys.   And I had to take the moment to tell Magnus that was so wrong, what he did to you in front of everyone you know, he he publicly minimized through humor any sort of engagement with your pain to make himself feel better, to get through the interaction.   Liesel Mertes So point three, a take home message number one, don't be that guy or that girl, if you have a tendency to be a Joking Julie or a Jackass Jared, you need to ask yourself some questions.   Why am I so uncomfortable with my own emotions or with the emotions of others? And maybe maybe you're just doing it within your own story. Maybe even when you talk about something hard, you always feel the need to close it out with a joke.   Maybe you learned distressed early on that actually other people couldn't hold your strong emotions and you needed to wrap it up that way, but, you know, as a as a sub point, point three, B know that we're always being shaped by what is modeled for us and especially for younger people, whether that is someone who is a couple of decades younger than you in the workplace or if you were in a parenting relationship or just in a power dynamic, you are modeling what is acceptable behavior.   Liesel Mertes And it requires intention or else you're going to get these bad unintended consequences, you know, if Magnus encounters enough of that sort of jocular dismissiveness again and again, what he's going to think is this is the way I need to interact in order to be heard in this setting and is going to set a trajectory for him to think that he also needs to do that. And then the cycle just perpetuates itself again and again.   So thanks for listening to this little mini-series of real time reflection about the sort of stuff that covid is bringing out for people.   Liesel Mertes Every day you are going to have the opportunity to be able to move toward someone and be a caring, supportive present person or move away from them, and there's a lot of levels to that. There's all kinds of things to unpack.   [00:15:15.150] But just now, today, take a moment to think about some of the interactions that you had this week. What are they saying about you? You know, for me, it touched on some things that I'm not proud of that manifest in the midst of my stress response that I'm trying to with intention change in my interactions going forward.   [00:15:35.600] And as you think about your experience, if you have missed someone, if you think, "Oh, my gosh, I was a Buck-up Bobby to my co-worker or to my child or I was a Jackass Jarred and I don't want to do that. And I don't want to be that." One of the most powerful things that you can do is go back and say you're sorry to someone. That's what I did within 15 minutes with Magnus. I went back and I said, "I'm sorry.   [00:16:02.150] I did not treat you fairly or well. I shamed you and that was wrong of me. And I'm sorry I did that. And I don't want you to carry that energy. It's not right and it's not true for you." You'd be amazed at what a difference that can make. In our next episode, we'll be back to interviewing guests. Thanks for your time. Have a good day.   MUSICAL TRANSITION OUT  

- Peter Kline I'm never doing enough, never doing enough of working enough with them and never doing enough therapy outside of therapy hours with them and knowing the importance of that, but also trying to manage the responsibility and guilt that comes along with that while also, also being clear on. But every day with him is a gift and every day is enough.  That's it. It's it's holding those two things together that often feels very difficult, but that's kind of what we're given to manage.   INTRO My guests today are Janice McRandal and Peter Kline.  They are here to talk about their son, Leo, what it is like to raise him and love him as he lives with cerebral palsy.  Cerebral palsy is the most common motor disability in childhood, it affects the ability to move and maintain balance and we will hear about how CP impacts their lives.    We also talk about baseball, rugby, sharks, and you will have the joy of listening to the particular lilt of Janice’s accent.    As always, I want you to know Peter and Janice as more than just their role as Leo’s parents.  Peter and Janice live in Queensland, Australia and, when I spoke to them, they had just returned from a trip to the Barrier Reef.    - Janice McRandal Oh, yes, just you know, it's one of the world's beautiful spots, so it was really quite a stunningly different experience to the pandemic apathy that set in to go our beautiful rhythm and just have these days in a day or two in paradise.   - Liesel Mertes Are you snorkelers? Are you divers? Do you do some of both?   - Peter Kline No, that was the first time I have ever snorkel.   - Janice McRandal Oh, really? I didn't know that.   - Peter Kline Yeah, I know. Never snorkel before.   - Janice McRandal Oh, well that's the way to do it. That's the way it is if you're going to be the first time.   Peter Kline Go. Go big.   You might have gathered that Peter is not a native of Australia.  Peter was born in Houston.  He traveled to Chicago, where we overlapped at Wheaton College for our undergraduate work.  And, after marrying Janice, he moved to Australia where he teaches and works with young ordinands at the Charles Sturt University in Australia, a theological college that helps those seeking ordination in the Anglican Church.  When he is not working, Peter enjoys a few hobbies.     - Peter Kline When I'm not teaching. So I, I love to paint. That's probably the number one thing that I that I do when I find the time, which is difficult these days to sneak in time to paint. Yeah, that's what I, I love to make art and paint. So that's, that's kind of my main thing that I try to do outside of my professional life.   - Peter Kline And I also I have also taken up or re-entered rather playing baseball. So, you know, moving to Australia, you know, you have to find ways to stay connected to your American roots.   Janice is also a theologian.  As you will hear in a little bit, that is acutally one of the sparks that brought Peter and Janice together.  Janice works at the University of Divinity and is the director of the Centre for Discourse, which does public theology.  She, like Peter, also loves sport.    - Janice McRandal So I'm a big lover of sport, so I am part of that clichéd Australian sport loving lifestyle. So I play by play sport. I play touch football, which is touch rugby, I guess would be the way to say it.   - Janice McRandal I played that for twenty eight years, so since I was 12. So I just play weekly in a more and much more social team. Again, not super serious, competitive and I really enjoy that.   - Janice McRandal I will only give it up when my body says I absolutely have to.   Janice also loves to cook   - Peter Kline One of Janice's skills is actually to clean as she cooks. Yeah. So so it's often like to get to the end of a cooking session and you have this amazing, delicious, beautiful food and a clean kitchen here. And it's like what, what did you do that.   - Janice McRandal It is my superpower in the kitchen. I am that rare cook that like is always cleaning as she goes. And there's nothing makes me happier.   - Liesel Mertes And would you give us an overview of your origins story?   - Liesel Mertes Did you get together?   - Peter Kline Oh, the two of us? Yes. Yeah,   - Janice McRandal Entirely by accident. Certainly not. Certainly not something one would plan for. So we both work in the same field in academia. We're both in backgrounds, in and teaching in theology. And we had connected over a number of things.   - Janice McRandal I think we first met at a conference in 2012 and we had mutual friends and sort of knew each other in a very friendly way. And then a very good friend of mine was moving to Nashville to start a Ph.D. in the same similar program, same school as where Peter was at Vanderbilt.   - Janice McRandal And I was I had about a year before going through a separation and divorce and was visiting her. And I knew a number of people through the theological world at Vanderbilt. Peter is one of them. And we had made plans to go for breakfast in a very you know, neither of us were at all interested in each other. It was just a great big accident that came upon us.   - Liesel Mertes And do you remember expressly like that initial breakfast? Can you go back and think, you know, like, I got the omelette and I was just over bacon or.   - Janice McRandal Yeah, yeah. What did you have for breakfast? Do you remember?   - Peter Kline Yeah, it was the I know what I can see and picture it.   - Janice McRandal I can remember the where I had to go to the Cuban breakfast is what it was called on the menu. Yeah that's right.   - Janice McRandal And then Peter took me to erm I'm, I've got a high level of camp and I delight in weird awful things. And Peter turns to the, the Parthenon in Nashville, which I did. People kept saying to me, when you're in Nashville you should go to the Parthenon. I was assuming it was some Greek restaurant that people liked. I had no idea about this actual enormous structure replica.   - Janice McRandal Peter took me to that and it was just delightful. And we jumped on the back of the elementary school field trip. Yep. It was just a fun, enjoyable day.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   – Janice McRandal   So, you know, after I spent quite a bit of time with Peter during that trip in Nashville, and then Peter came to see me while I was in New York.   - Janice McRandal And just by chance, he was coming to Australia two weeks later to a conference I was organising. And we'd already planned as friends like in a purely platonic way, for him to come and stay with me and my home. And so at the end of both of these trips, we realized that we were falling in love. And what are we going to do now?   - Janice McRandal So we did two years very, very long because, you know, people say long distance to our flights and we love.   - Janice McRandal So it was a long two years.   - Janice McRandal But we've you know, we've both been divorced. We didn't want to rush into anything. So we thought we did the work we had to do to make sure this was the right move forward for us. And then at the end of that two years, Peter moved to Australia and we were married. Woo-hoo!   Peter and Janice were married, twice, in 2016.  They had a ceremony in Australia and another in Houston.  Janice entered the marriage with two children, a son and a daughter who were six and nine.  And Janice and Peter knew they wanted to have a child together.         - Liesel Mertes How soon after you got married did you find out you were pregnant?   - Janice McRandal Well, immediately. So I had just gone off the pill and we came back from from our second wedding. So we already had this first wedding, came back from the second wedding in America. And I was immediately pregnant. And we were really like that was in the first like we were very shocked and was far sooner than we had anticipated.   - Janice McRandal But we're excited. Yeah. And then but I we had a miscarriage at eight weeks and, you know, it was really sad about that. And it was all, you know, been such a whirlwind. We'd just gotten married. Peter's moved halfway across the world and then that suddenly happened. So much had been happening.   - Janice McRandal And so then we decided we would just stop trying for six months or so, for four or five months just to give us some time.   - Janice McRandal All of us had fallen pregnant easily, so we would just give her some space. And then I fell pregnant again in the following, like six months later if and we had an ultrasound at nine weeks and there was no hobby.   - Janice McRandal Yes. And that I would say that hit us much harder. Yeah. The second one. Yeah. And then we, you know, so I had to have surgery and DNC and the eldest two children were with us that day. There was nothing we could do about it. So it was all just it was a sad, confronting time and we felt very sad about that.   - Janice McRandal So that was April, May, May when I had that surgery and what, twenty seven, three point thirty seven.   - Janice McRandal And I think and now we're starting to feel a little bit anxious. And of course, you know this as a woman gets older, like for me, there is suddenly that internalized anxiety of like Peter to has not had his own children. What if I can't, what if, what if this becomes a thing? Now I start having repeat miscarriages and we kind have a baby. He's my, I'm three years older than him.   - Janice McRandal So is he going to regret having married me? All these kind of fears and griefs and they weren't unspoken. We we we shared that with each other, but it felt a level of intensity around that which are many, many people in all sorts of different situations would relate to, I'm sure.   - Liesel Mertes And then so much tumult in just this first stretch of being married, right?   - Janice McRandal Yeah, a lot. Absolutely. And, you know, it's a second marriage for both of us.   - Janice McRandal So you're so anxious not to get it wrong.   - Peter Kline That's right.   - Janice McRandal And there's so much baggage in history that you carry into that that you're trying to negotiate and not lose yourself. You know, that's a big fear for suddenly for us, I think. Would you say that after divorce?   - Peter Kline Yeah, definitely and figuring out and carrying all of that and figuring out how to. You know, be the new family that we're trying to be both with Jesse and Penelope and trying to bring another child into that, it's just a lot, right, is just a lot of.   - Janice McRandal And you've just moved and you just moved. Right.   - Peter Kline So you're figuring out how to be married again. And and it's you know, it's a second marriage. It's just very different from first marriage. And so, yeah, it's it's just a lot. Yeah. Shorthold so then so then in August, so it wasn't very far.   - Janice McRandal So obviously we didn't have difficulty falling pregnant. Then in August we found out it was the lowest.   - Janice McRandal No, in October it was in October we found that we were pregnant with Leo. Yeah.   - Janice McRandal Yeah. And we were nervous. We were scared and anxious. The first three months I think I had about four or five ultrasounds and I was having all sorts of symptoms.   - Janice McRandal It actually like there were real symptoms. But I think the biggest symptom was my anxiety.   - Liesel Mertes Absolutely, after having those losses, just I I imagine it would be very easy to be overshadowed by the uncertainty, right?   - Janice McRandal Absolutely. We were. Just hoping and praying and biding time. But once we got there, I think once we got through that three months, we definitely. To level, you know, as much as we could calm down and feel excited and happy and secure and looking forward to having a baby together   Janice and Peter are happy, expectant.  They are eight weeks away from Leo’s due date.  Janice was lecturing at the college and Peter left to go and hear an Australian author, Tom Winton, talk about a new book release.    - Peter Kline And I had traveled how many hours was about two to two and a half hours across state lines and then it down into New South Wales from Queensland to go hear him talk about his new book. Janice started feeling   - Janice McRandal Well, I guess I was having contractions then. I was in complete denial about that.   - Janice McRandal I rang the hospital and said, I'm very sure I'm not having a baby. But and and then the I guess the midwife I spoke to said, well, well, I really think you should come in and maybe you should come in. So but Peter was not at home. I rang him and I said, yes, that's right.   - Peter Kline I think what you I think the first text you texted me was, you know, don't don't panic. Don't worry, the baby's not arriving, but I'm going to the hospital just in case I think was your first to and I was like, this is not good. So as soon as I got that text and realised that she was on her way to the hospital, I just left, right and left where I was and started driving, driving home.   A friend takes Janice to the hospital as Peter is rushing home, racking up speeding tickets from Australia’s camera monitoring system.  Meanwhile, doctor’s are trying to slow down Janice’s labor, she will need a C-section.    - Janice McRandal So I made that spinal block. They could they failed it. Three attempts to get this one block in, which is very unpleasant for me. And, you know, I'm having these very regular contractions, but it's slowed down the process significantly. And Peter made it clear, was being brought like into the operating theatre at this point.   Janice McRandal When we when Peter arrived and I walked into the operating theatre and within five minutes, Leo had arrived.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's so intense for both of you.   - Janice McRandal It was very intense. Like Peter arrived into, like, you know, a mess of adrenaline. Yeah.    - Janice McRandal Because he's come speeding along this freeway thinking he's not going he designed himself to not making it.   - Peter Kline But yeah, I thought that kind of halfway through I was like, oh, I don't know if I'm going to make it. And I had to turn myself in. So it was a little bit, you know, OK, I had to go through my sort of mini even grieving process as I was driving as I go into the with the birth of my child and OK.  But I just hope he's OK or, you know, so all that kind of stuff,   Because Leo has come eight weeks early.  He has to initially go to the NICU.  But he is strong and moving and is soon moved to a special care nursey where he has to stay for the next four weeks.    - Janice McRandal So you have to adjust rapidly. And for the first few days, I was just in shock. You know, I didn't believe I was having a baby. And suddenly there was a baby and that also had a mother, a third C-section. And I'm just about to turn 38. And I was just deeply in shock. But then you you have to rapidly adapt. And I have to start expressing milk, which is the liquid gold, trying to get that in.   - Janice McRandal And and the pressure in Australia public hospital system, the special care unit, they have milk banks donated breast milk. Also, the research shows how beneficial this is for especially premature babies. But they will they is a very limited supply. So they will only provide the milk. A premature baby needs up to thirty six week gestation. Then they have to cut them off. They just don't have enough.   - Janice McRandal They need milk. So there's this immediate pressure placed on you. You need to get your milk supply in and be producing enough to to be feeding this baby by thirty six weeks and providing all the nutritional need to. That with them was the immediate pressure on me. OK, I've got to be expressing milk constantly and it was just a surreal kind of, you know, you adapt immediately to this program. And we were both, you know, routine of getting up in the morning going, spending the day at the hospital, doing his cares, as they call it, changing him, nursing him and doing skin to skin as much as possible and starting to teach him how to suckle on slowly doing that and then going home.   - Janice McRandal And as you know, every three hours expressing that just became a routine for four weeks. Yeah, I think I that's a strange, surreal, exhausting routine.   - Janice McRandal And we were moving because we, like many idiots, had planned to move four weeks before he was going to be born. So which actually meant around the time he then was coming home, we were moving. Yeah.   - Janice McRandal So it was like and then Peter got poisoned so severely he had to go in an ambulance line hospital.   - Janice McRandal It was just it was a difficult time.   - Liesel Mertes That I in my experience with being in the NICU or having to not not me, but having a child in the NICU. You know, as you were talking, the word that came to mind was totalizing. You know, it's just I felt that it was amazing how your world just. Is encompassed in this building walls and that these other things that, like I had been doing previously or caring about and, you know, even like moving and it just, you know, just the reality of being present there with your child seems almost overwhelming, let alone trying to incorporate any other need or reality out of those walls.   - Janice McRandal Yeah, no, this is it. But you would come home at the end of the day and the home was suddenly this strange alien place. I didn't care about it. I'm just going to drop everything.   - Janice McRandal Eight, go to sleep and get back to the hospital, like maybe three hours later.   - Peter Kline Yeah, that's right.   - Peter Kline Yeah, it's true. It is a totalizing experience in space. And I mean that what that makes me think of is actually where we ended up leaving and going home, which is this joyful thing. You finally get to bring our baby home.   - Peter Kline But remember this. Great. Like sadness, leaving, leaving the hospital. And it's a strange experience because you're both happy to be finally leaving and you're leaving is good news. But at the same time, it's this this has been your whole world.   - Peter Kline And also it's been our whole support network. It's been our whole lifeline. It's been our hope for for you know, I mean, a month isn't a long time. But when you're, you know, going through something like that, it is a long time. It's just it's a life altering adapted quickly. It's a life altering, transformative space you've been through. So it's like you're having to say goodbye to all of that all at once. That was an overwhelming experience of itself.   - Janice McRandal And this child that you now have deeply bonded with very quickly, you can't remember when they didn't exist has never been outside of these walls.   - Peter Kline Yeah, that's right. And is and has never been outside like a very extensive team of doctors and nurses caring. And now it's just OK. Well, it's our responsibility is the whole world.   Liesel Mertes You had your own expulsion from a womb like setting up.   Peter and Janice go home feeling confident and optimistic.  Leo had done well; he didn’t have substantial complications.  However, Leo had to be readmitted several months later.  He was not gaining weight or meeting expected milestones.    - Peter Kline What does that mean, we don't know, is it just because he's or is it just because he's premature and that he's just developing a bit slower and there's the whole, you know, kind of corrected age thing when they're they're kind of age, but then they have this corrected age.   - Janice McRandal So you can be corrected. But he wasn't quite getting the correct age milestones.   - Peter Kline So it's all it's it's it was all that. And and, of course, you know, within a like within a relationship, a parenting relationship, I mean, in any circumstance, parents interpret their children differently. But there's like, you know, I feel like we had different just a different interpretative lenses. Through what, through what to kind of interpret what's going on. You.   - Peter Kline Yeah, because Janice has had two kids before, and so she knows about what a typical developing kid looks like and I haven't.   - Peter Kline But I also think Janice was more quick just to say I think something's wrong here. I think Leo is not developing. And I think I was slower. Maybe I was I don't think I was in denial about it, but I think it was just slower coming around to OK, yeah, there is something   - Janice McRandal And I process trauma really quickly. That's why I saw myself in the deep end. So I guess it's the personality type. Yes. Like. That's one way I deal with with trauma is by naming it as quickly as possible so Leo would eventually be diagnosed. I even said that at three months, I think that he might have cerebral palsy. Yeah. So, which probably at that stage seemed very premature pronouncement, but that is certainly how I deal with that.   - Liesel Mertes That was the force of your gut and intuition. Yeah. Yeah. How how old was he when he officially received the diagnosis of cerebral palsy?   - Peter Kline How old was he?   - Janice McRandal Was he he was he was quite young. He was 10 months old. Well, 10 to 11 months old. And he had been admitted to hospital when he was seven months old because he's weight had, you know, he'd gone from starting at the sixtieth percentile to under four and negative into the negative.   - Janice McRandal And he was clear at this point, they're starting to use the language of global developmental delay.   - Janice McRandal So this is a very, very floppy baby. So very low tone. So he'd never, you know, rolled over. He still couldn't hold his head. He couldn't hold his head up. He was, it was like he was a one month old, really, for the largely for the first year of his life.   - Janice McRandal So he was admitted and they decided to put an NG tube back in which he'd had in the special care unit to get his nutrition up. And that had that he'd be we'd been in the hospital for two weeks in the initial round of trying to get his weight on and begin a diagnostic process. And Peter has a nephew with a mitochondrial disease. And so there was a high level of concern around genetic, very serious and potentially life ending genetic disorders for Leo.   - Janice McRandal So in that first round, we'd gone through this process of testing for all the big scary things like Mito, Fragile Z, Prater-Willi.   - Janice McRandal So he'd had comprehensive testing very early on and we'd seen really the best pediatric pediatric geneticist in this in the state very early on and eliminated those things. So there was a certain relief that came with that, like certainly we'd gone from the worst. What might seem, I guess for many people, the worst case scenario to something that some that's you know, it's all relative. Some starting to talk about CP seemed much at that point. I think a bit of a relief.   - Liesel Mertes I just imagine that there's such a profound. Level of what is being asked of you on like an emotional and physical level, whether that's, you know, presently or back then, that for people that have children that don't have, you know, developmental delays or things like that, like that, they can't quite fathom just some of the dailiness of what you're having to incorporate along with this overarching kind of emotional like uncertainty.   - Liesel Mertes I might be wrong about that, but if any of that sparks something in you, I'd love to have either of you or both speak about that yet.   - Janice McRandal So definitely I think that around the time of Leo's diagnosis, I was I was not up for this. Like I had had such a traumatic year since his birth and I had not recovered well from the C-section, multiple infections. And his feeding was absolutely erratic. So even when he had the energy to put back in at seven months, Leo was constantly on the breast, sometimes going with just 20 minute breaks and he never slept. Occasionally he'd sleep a two hour span and that would be it.   - Janice McRandal And I had two other children to care for their own needs and was constantly feeding this child or he was crying, needing, settling. And so I think by the time it got to around his diagnosis and there was late before, it's really an unknown future.   - Janice McRandal I was I was not up for this and probably I was depressed. Probably I had some postnatal depression. And so I say at that time, there was enormous pressure on Peter. I like feeling that I'm on the brink of maybe not being able to, like, go on, which I don't think was the case, but that feeling was always there.   - Janice McRandal If not, I can't do it anymore Peter I can't do this and I go to sleep. I was so exhausted.   - Peter Kline Yeah, I mean, for a good I mean, over a year, it's just like you're living on the absolute edge of your resources, like emotional, physical, cognitive. It's just like you're just have to set up camp there, right. Yeah. And it's it's it's just overwhelming. And I think my like remembering back, like I associate like so much of this around, like the physical symbol for this is Leo's NG tube, his nasogastric tube, the tube that goes into his nose and down into his stomach, just having to manage and deal with that.   - Peter Kline You know, it's a tiny little piece of plastic, but it it just caused so much stress and trauma. And, you know, because you're having to take this thing to your child's face every day and it comes off of a day out at least once a day on average, once a day, pull it out. And at the beginning, we had to go to the emergency room every time to have it reinserted. Eventually, I learned how to put it back in myself, but it was just a trauma.   - Peter Kline But it's just like a traumatic experience every time it comes out and you have to put it back in. And and just the constant anxiety around, I mean, just the weight and nutrition you're having to keep track of. But then it's just a, the constant, like constant monitoring for him not to pull the thing out or to keep his hands away from vomited every time he nearly in tears.   - Janice McRandal Yeah. So it's it's just, you know, it's just like it felt like there was never a moment in which you could just. Let your baby be right, you know, or enjoy your baby or enjoy it, just this concept.   - Janice McRandal Yeah. So, yeah, it was tough.  So I didn't know if it's a case of, like, what's being asked of us is too big right now in terms of a lifetime.   - Janice McRandal So we're just going to keep struggling along day by day. And that really the turning point was when after some MRI's and various brain scans, the hospital decided we could do something about sleeping and sleep clinic where we rapidly weaned him and got him off the breast and he started taking some melatonin. And yeah, within a month or two, he started sleeping. And that was a major turning point for us. He's about 15 months old then before.   - Liesel Mertes That is a long time to be for him to be, you know, not sleeping well and a long time for you guys. All right. I can imagine how that would feel like a very profound turning point.   - Janice McRandal Well, it's probably more, I should say, is probably more of a turning point for me, because I think I had I was so utterly exhausted.   - Janice McRandal It was at that point I said, right, Peter, you're up. I need to sleep for a year and you're up. And I do think that's right. That's right. Just and that's what was needed is appropriate. But it is probably more of a turning point for me.   - Peter Kline Yeah. Because you could in a way you could let go of. Of certain, to a certain degree, certain tasks and the constancy of certain tasks around caring for Leo and it could transfer to me in a certain way. So, yeah.   - Janice McRandal But also, it's a major turning point for Leo, this poor child gets what he desperately needs, sleep, sleep. So. And, you know, three or four months after that, he actually started sleeping. He had a surgery to have a peg inserted tube, which in Australia happens far more even then after having an NG tube for a year, almost a year was soon in Australia.   - Janice McRandal So I know in America, friends and relatives, pigs get put in after for six weeks, even even up until a year in Australia. They're reluctant to do that as a permanent move. So we had to really push to have that put in. And that really was the final big change for Leo that he hated this to be pulled it out every day and then we'd have to pin him down again. And and that was just a great relief. And he's been such a happy little boy since, like, it's like a different child since birth, to sleep and getting rid of it and the NG tube.   - Janice McRandal Yeah. And he became happy and we finally could delight in him and enjoy at that time together and which hadn't really been that possible up until this point.   We will return to Peter and Janice in just a moment.  But we need to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsors.  The first is FullStack PEO.  FullStack is a full-service benefits firm here in Indianapolis.  The specialize in helping small business owners and entrepreneurs navigate tasks like payroll and open enrollment.  Their talented team skillfully handles all of those details, caring for your people so you can grow your business.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting, my company.  You are being faced with so many challenges each day and it is hard to know how to show support when your people need it most.  From targeted trainings on Compassion Fatigue, Resiliency, and Creating a Culture of Support to Certification Programs in Workplace Empathy, Handle with Care Consulting will help you pay attention to what matters most:  your people.    Now, back to my conversation with Peter and Janice…   - Liesel Mertes Tell me tell me a little bit about September 2020. Leo, what are things that you are especially enjoying about him this month?   - Peter Kline This month. Yeah, we let's see. Well so many speech, so many things. So, so he's come this year. He's come a long way with his speech. So he's he started babbling this year   - Janice McRandal A few months ago really like using consonants and vowels.   - Peter Kline And so he's still not you know, he's still not anywhere near, you know, words or that kind of and he may never get there. We don't know. But just in terms of his vocalizations and ability to express and communicate things with,   - Janice McRandal I'm pretty sure he said hi to us a couple of times this week. The three walked in from work. Hi, Leo. And he said hi back.   - Peter Kline Yeah. So that's the delight. Yeah.   - Peter Kline So that's that's been wonderful. It's wonderful to see his. Ability to do like his physical development and ability to play with things, and even just yesterday he was able to put together successive rolls and roll halfway across the living room to go get a toy that he was wanting. And that was just wonderful to see. You know,   - Janice McRandal I guess we're really starting to see his agency. Yeah, it's interesting that we haven't previously and it's such a big broad, CP is such a big, broad, questionable diagnosis that it doesn't give you any sense of where you're heading or what might be the future for you.   - Janice McRandal So it's like discovering all the time, ever, any time something new develops. Oh, and he can do that now.   - Peter Kline Yeah. Another another big thing is his eating. So we're actually currently in the midst of trying to wean him from his feeding tube. So this is another big weaning process. So it's both it's both a kind of new stressor, but also another source of delight to really kind of see him picking up his ability to eat orally. So so we're kind of slowly reducing the amount that we put through his tube to try to encourage him to be able to gain his oral appetite.   - Peter Kline So and he's been doing overall, he's been doing really well. So to see him have a new relationship with food, be able to enjoy food, to be able to figure out what kinds of foods in particular he likes. His ability to drink, you know, so that's, you know, to drink water and liquids and like   - Peter Kline So it's so it's really it's just a lot of these very simple, basic developmental things that with Leo are stretched out. And and very slowly emerging, but it's it's just delightful to watch them absolutely happen across this very long, slow timeline.   - Janice McRandal I mean, I feel like we've jumped stories because we're now smiling. Our energy is picked up. It's like when these things occurred, we're almost talking about a different child. Like he was so hungry and tired for so long he couldn't emerge from himself.   - Peter Kline That's right.   - Liesel Mertes And Janice, you mentioned some of the uncertainty within a CP diagnosis. How have you two, and I imagine it's like, a becoming not something that you've just figured out, but what what is important for you as you orient your own expectations and your parenting within some of the uncertainty that CP brings things into your family?   - Janice McRandal Yeah, I guess, you know, some of that happens on a theoretical intellectual level. You know, we're both academics. I'm just stopping somebody at our front door. We need to oh, we're having mandatory fire extinguishers, which are. Hello. Sorry. No, that's fine for me to do it if this is in the background. Did you want me to go? Are you happy for me to continue this a little bit of noise in the background or do you want me to wait? How about you continue and if at any moment it becomes intolerable clamor, I will cause you OK? Yeah. So I think some of that happened on a theoretical level of thinking through, well, what does what does it intellectually mean to to think about disability? And both Peter and I in scholarship have, you know, read from disability studies in the past. So it's there not unknown theoretical questions to us, but also thinking through as parents.   - Janice McRandal What does it mean to, to prioritize certain forms of development, for example, you know, like one of the things around this idea of what if my child never says mommy, like, what would that mean to me? And would that be a lesser that be a grief because who he is is not enough? For example, theoretical questions around that.   - Janice McRandal But the, but the big emotional grief part, I think, and this is something Peter and I have talked about a lot, is really it's largely suspended because we don't know what we're grieving at any given time. We don't know what what will or will not emerge or happen for Leo at this point.   - Janice McRandal We don't even have great indicators. I mean, we know that it's very unlikely, for example, Leo will walk unassisted ever. That's really that's that's off the table. But we don't know to what level he'll be able to. self-propel in a wheelchair, for example, the walker use a walker, we don't know.   - Janice McRandal Speech, again, as Peter said, is unknown. And even even where his cognitive ability is that we're a long way off really being able to have maybe four or five or six, we might have a better idea around that.   - Janice McRandal But so it's a real. It's an unusual. Way to experience grief in that if it's an unknowing, it's a grief, it's an unknowing grief. So that's something where you come up against.   - Janice McRandal He'll do something. And he started babbling, Peter said. And some of that babble is saying, Mum, Mum, Mum or Dad, Dad, dad. And it's only very occasional and it's not it's it's not really directed at us. But even to hear that sound and it's very emotional experience. And and so then you suddenly aware of all this grief that you had suspended somewhere in the air and you didn't know you were doing that.   - Peter Kline Yeah. So it's it's unpredictable and it it hits you in unpredictable ways. And both I mean, I would say both the sort of both the joy and the grief of parenting. Leo, it unfolds in that kind of slow, unique time of itself, right? Yeah.   - Janice McRandal And it's so important for us to be able to hold that and care for that, but also to foster a relation to Leo, where he is always enough, wherever he is in any given day to to find a way to hold both of those things and give loving care to both of those things.   - Janice McRandal And they're the kind of conversations we have of how do we make room for all of that.   - Peter Kline And it feels part of the difficulties that Leo currently has a lot of therapy every week, you know, four or five therapy sessions every week with physio speech, occupational therapy. So it's a lot of this, you know, early intervention therapy working really hard to maximise this window of neuroplasticity to potentially allow him to develop as much as he possibly can. So there's this big emphasis on doing all of this, getting somewhere really and progressing.   - Peter Kline So and it's it's often I find it often difficult to feel like fully throwing yourself into that, which brings with it its own sense of guilt. And I'm never doing enough, never doing enough of working enough with them and never doing enough therapy outside of therapy hours with them and knowing the importance of that, but also trying to manage the responsibility and guilt that comes along with that while also also being clear on. But every day with him is a gift and every day is enough.   - Peter Kline That's it. It's it's holding those two things together that often feels very difficult, but that's kind of what we're given to manage.   - Liesel Mertes Now, how do you how do you help? Like both express to Leo and also express to yourself those moments of this is enough, like what does that look or feel like to you?   - Janice McRandal Yeah, I think one thing that's become more accessible for me at least, is talking to Leo and and talking to him in meaningful ways and feeling a sense of there's a window of communication that's definitely opened up, that that's a way of relating between us right now. So I'm able to talk to him and and he's able to communicate back to me in various ways. And that is just become such the last few months that that's opened up. It just feels like such a precious, beautiful gift and a way of us being present together in any given moment.   - Janice McRandal And it always feels enough. So I you know, it takes some time with people with disabilities to figure out how we going to communicate to each other because not him. May I come with all these assumptions about how that's going to work and happen and I have to break some of that down and learn new ways.   - Janice McRandal So he's been teaching us how to communicate with him and now that's opening up. And really, it's it feels like a very beautiful gift that allows that mode of being together.   - Peter Kline Yeah, I mean, it is just about finding ways every day to communicate the just the joy and enough ness, if you want to put it like that, of just being together. I mean, even even even in terms of the therapies that he has every day and his therapists are wonderful about this. It's all about making those those experiences playful, joyful experiences and and never, you know, and it's it's again, it's a balance between trying to push him in certain directions, but then also never thinking that you are expecting or requiring him to do anything at all.   - Peter Kline So it's about opening up spaces of playful opportunity to explore what he can do. And then what he and what he can do is wonderful, whatever that is. Yeah. So it's it's it's. Yeah. And just being with him in that, you know, just being just the, you know, just the sheer being with is enough.   - Liesel Mertes I feel like you're giving voice to what is an underlying reality and tension that is woven throughout any parenting relationship, which is, you know, how are you orienting with your expectation towards your child? And, you know, for people who have children who are not affected by disabilities, there there's this whole level of expectation that we feel like is, you know, societally or, you know, from a family level like these are right expectations that I need to have. But I will be pondering your words because I think that just the delight in being with someone just for who they are in that moment is actually such a full hearted gift that we are seeking in any relationship, but often so withholding and how we actually give that, especially to a woman, you know, in our preoccupied and frantic state of how parenting can be.   - Janice Kline Right. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, one of the things that and I you know, people with disabilities are not here to teach us lessons about ourselves. And so we have to go through that kind of thinking. But I think that one of the things I've experienced with Leo that I have not yet learned how to do with my other children is to get off myself, you know, to start projecting, as you said, my expectations or transference of or repetitions of all sorts of material onto my other children.   - Janice McRandal I think I experience that in a very different way with Leo. You and not me. And I am not you. We are two people that can actually be together and that opens up a whole the whole possibility of relation, and that has been at times quite wonderous. Hmm.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine in this journey you have needed the support of a community of people as you think about some of that intense, you know, first year where there was no sleeping and marginal eating into the stage that you are now. What have been some of the best ways that people have come alongside you and supported you in your journey?   - Janice McRandal Yeah, I think we mentioned when the weekend or the weekend before Leah was coming home from the special care unit, we were moving. So this is certainly memorable. Peter's colleagues and maybe some of my colleagues I can't remember, and also students of both of ours moved out like they moved our home.   - Janice McRandal They moved all their stuff and unpacked the cupboards in the kitchen and put together new furniture that we had purchased. And friends came and painted bedrooms for the older two children so that it would be special for them. So that was like that was a big mammoth effort that was such a practical help for support. The other memorable and very helpful practical things we had.   - Janice McRandal I mean, we must have had 100 meals cooked for us in the first year of Leo's life. I'm not exaggerating. A whole village just kept turning up to provide food for us. And that was super helpful in just a practical way to relieve the tension of those kind of daily tasks that seemed insurmountable, I would say. What do you think of Peter in terms of the support network that we experienced?   - Peter Kline We had some friends once pay for cleaner to come for a whole day here. That was wonderful. Yes, yes, yes.   - Peter Kline It just yeah, there's all that all those kind of practical necessities of just getting through the day and getting through the week and getting through the month. I think we were very grateful to have a nice community around us. Right. And then I guess there's just the there's just also the. And I would say, then it's the kind of circle of people then reduces, in terms of the people who can actually simply be present with you in more intimate ways about what's unfolding or what's going on, so, yes, they're probably key people in our lives who are, in various ways, able to simply share with us.   - Peter Kline And again, just even just again, it's about just being with. Right? In some ways. Just being with us, with us and what's what's going on. That's that's been super, super important.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm, what you manage that you mentioned, that smaller circle of people who are equipped to do that, which perhaps is a sideways way of easing in to the follow up question, which   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the things that people have done that have really set your teeth on edge where you think, oh, my gosh, like, just don't do this?   - Liesel Mertes If I could warn somebody off of these actions, these are bad ones or words.   - Peter Kline Yeah, I mean, there's been there's been a few, like, super unhelpful, upsetting, just like comments about about what Leo is going through, but we're going to be the one that sticks out in my mind is when we're right in the midst of of going through these hospitalizations with Leo and these worrying worrying about Leo's weight. You know, just like I think we received one comment about some a person said, oh, I wish I I wish I had that problem, meaning the problem of not gaining weight.   - Peter Kline Right. So, you know, it's it's like a at the time it was like a throwaway line, but it's one of those lines that end up like jabbing you and staying with you. And both Janice and I in various times just randomly will think back to that and just get upset about it again. Just this year, really.   - Janice McRandal And there were four or five people in our lives that continue to say this over and over. Is he'll get there. This child is not developing, I know something's wrong with started talking to the doctors. We're you know, we're trying this, his nutrients are being boosted. We're trying this. And people that just kept saying "You'll get there in the end, they all do. They all get there in the end", which, you know, is patently untrue.   - Janice McRandal Right. Not every like clearly that's untrue. And too, you're not hearing me. I wanted you to hear me in my pain and anxiety and fear right now. And, in order to make yourself feel better, you're just dismissing what I just said.   - Janice McRandal That one, it's still wounds me and still hurts me. These people, you know, the people that are still some people still in my life for professional reasons that I that just kept saying it over and over.   - Janice McRandal And it feels it feels very disappointing that that's the way they approached us. Yes.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and a profound sense of of not being heard and also just thinking exactly what you said observationally, that's not even true, right?   - Janice McRandal You actually, surely you know, that's untrue?. Like why? You know, so that was really that that was a source of great frustration. And it feels like, you know, a relationship look like, I don't know, I can ever get past that. Now that you kept saying that to me and I know it was more about you than me, but that really says to me we're not in the same mode of relating to each other.   - Peter Kline Yeah. Or that this particular challenge that we're going through is not one that you either want or can just travel with me through, right? Yeah, yeah.   - Janice McRandal So, you know, I think there's all sorts of people that said silly things that they regret, but they don't linger. Yeah. It's the people that just repeatedly found ways to dismiss you one way or another or to minimize or to extrapolate these hopeful future that everything was going to be OK. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes If there is anyone listening who is in the midst of their own journey, whether it's cerebral palsy or a different diagnosis, that has caused them to have to reckon with a life that they would have with their child, that is not accessible and no one wanted it. What words would you offer to that person?   - Janice McRandal Well, I guess I would. I guess my first thought is about any and all feelings of thoughts are OK.   - Janice McRandal I hear that, like you, there's no right way to process through these griefs. And there's no. There's no feelings of loss that are shameful and there can be room for holding all of that. So, you know, I think we come into these experiences never expecting them even the most. The person who's thought through all the scenarios, you still there's never a deep level of expectation, there's no way there's no playbook on how to navigate it.   - Janice McRandal That and I mean, the follow up to that would be to talk to a good therapist, talk to somebody like that, make and find a space somewhere where all those that emotional material can come to the fore and be given attention and held and cared for.   - Janice McRandal And one of the things we noticed when there was in the special care nursery is all the women. Typically, it's mostly heterosexual couples, not it's a very normative sort of situation in there. And all the mothers would find each other typically in the room where they were expressing milk and tell their stories and grieve together. And the fathers would sit alone in the room and didn't know how to find each other.   - Janice McRandal So I think especially if you're in a in a, you know, heterosexual relationship, that especially men need to find ways to to talk and gather and tell their stories.   - Peter Kline Definitely. That would be one thing that stood out to us. That's it's something that I'm still still working through. But what is it what does it mean to have a support network around us and around me and around Leo? So, yeah, and that's what I would say is like, just be super intentional about building a support network that is not just like it's not just adequate, but that's that's really good.   - Peter Kline And I'm thinking in terms of I think of like the therapists that we work with weekly and daily, in terms of doctors, I think in terms of friends, I think there are they're really, really wonderful people out there that can form a support network, that can turn parenting a child with disabilities into like a joyful experience and not just something that you're having to suffer through, although there is a suffering through.   - Peter Kline That's part of it. But that's that. So that is part of making it a a flourishing experience. And I think that those people are out there, those particular therapists out there, those are there. And sometimes it takes a while to find them or to piece it all together. But I think it's possible. So I think just always pushing to. For a kind of quality of connectedness,   - Janice McRandal yeah, I think it's super important and also make sure that you're always working towards health care and disability services for all.   - Peter Kline That's right. That's right.   - Janice McRandal So we live in a country. That's right. And that's I would also say that, you know, like just, you know, growing up in America and moving to Australia, you know, and we have a it's called the NDIS, the National Disability Insurance Scheme. It's not perfect, but it's it is part of Medicare as a part of the universal universal it. But it is a huge support, you know, gets funded through that in a really wonderful way.   - Janice McRandal So everyone should be able to have equal access to choosing the therapeutic and medical teams that they need for a therapist with a disability or it's somebody in their family. So, yeah, there's all that look self care, but also fight the good fight. Stage a revolution.   - Liesel Mertes That's right. Yeah, I hear that the level of of advocacy that is still really important in that. Thank you for giving voice to that. Thank you. This has been such a full conversation, is there anything that, again, thank you for? I realize that the gift of anyone's time is one of, you know, the kind of things that they can give.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from y conversation with Peter and Janice: Be very careful with clichés and looking on the bright side.People toss out trite phrases because they, themselves, are profoundly uncomfortable with pain.  And we rush people to a good conclusion because it makes us feel better.  Janice and Peter both commented how painful it was to have people assure them, again and again, that everything would be just fine with Leo.  There is a particular need for men to find and experience uplifting, emotionally accessible community as they go through hard times.This is a need for women as well but, as Janice mentioned, women are much more prone to find each other while men are off on their own. If you are a man listening to this episode, think of someone in your circle who is going through something hard.  Give them a call, send a text, check in to see how they are doing and offer support.  Support is both personal but there is also a structural aspect of supporting individuals and families that are not given equal access.The level of care and intervention and support services that Leo needs is large and expensive.  And we need systems that make those services available and accessible.  If you are interested in joining your voice to advocacy afforts, I have linked the Arc and the American Disabilities Advocates in the show notes.    The Arc:  https://thearc.org/ American Disabilities Advocates:  https://www.hrw.org/topic/disability-rights?gclid=Cj0KCQjwk8b7BRCaARIsAARRTL4kp445XLphPJlLKnomC3_s7JmukNkrcCBTZLAOIi0upuyJppuywdIaAt8cEALw_wcB

- Megan Flinn I have, I have faced my own deep, like I have survived the thing, I think a lot of people have the great wounding or the great pain point of their life. And for those of us who have faced and wrestled through it and acknowledge it changes us. We then can turn to others and kind of say, like, I've been to my deepest, darkest parts of myself and come out on the other side like. That's possible for you too, the hope of that is true for everybody,   INTRO   Today’s conversation is about grief and femininity and finding yourself in the midst of a hard loss.  When Megan Flinn went in for a straightforward surgery that yielded a devastating outcome, her life changed dramatically.  Her uterus was gone as was any dream of giving birth to a child of her own.  But before we jump into her story, a little bit more about Megan.  Megan is an old and dear friend.  We’ve shared so many conversations of the heart, she has spent the night by Moses (my son)’s side as he recovered from heart surgeries.  She has been there for birthday parties and was the one who originally rescued Tozer, a smart and loving mutt of a dog that became a part of my family.    Megan is tough and warm and smart.  She is brave and confident and capable of doing her own electric wiring.  She has a penchant for stray dogs.  Megan is currently pursuing her a Ph.D., working as a school counselor, and is the founder of her own non-profit, Hamza International that combines embodied therapeutic approaches with a consultative framework that honors community workers while bringing forward the best of brain science.       - Liesel Mertes Observing you over the years, you know, a key part of what you bring to so much of what you do in life is just a push for for justice and being a voice for those who have been marginalized. So I imagine that that is is a narrative thread that goes through your experiences that are leading you to where you are today.   - Megan Flinn Yeah, absolutely. And I think something. You know, just in recent events in our culture and our world, this idea of being a voice for the voiceless I kind of struggle with. That phrase not not because it's not a good phrase, but the fact that that phrase has to exist. Right. We remember even back when I was teaching, I was like, why is no one listening to these kids? Like, they're coming in every single day with the same story and no one is listening to them, so.   - Megan Flinn How do I. I how do I redirect people's attention to their voice and sometimes that does require me to use mine and so. I think that has been the thread of, OK, I'll use my voice to redirect, and then sometimes I have to use it longer because people really are willing to listen right to the mark to those who. We would classify as marginalized or not listened to.     Before founding her non-profit, Megan first worked as a teacher.     - Megan Flinn So I had gotten an education degree. I had been trained. I was a licensed teacher. I had checked all the boxes to get certification to teach in the state of Pennsylvania. And then when I was put at twenty two years old, but into a middle school classroom in North Philly, I was very underprepared for what my day actually looked like.   - Megan Flinn And so it was a quick lesson. I always say that was the year I grew up because it was I had bills to pay, I had student loans to pay, and I had to figure it out. And my teaching training, my education training did not prepare me for what I needed to do in that classroom.   Megan was seeing the effects of trauma on the youth that she was serving.  And she knew she wanted to understand it better.  Megan moved from teaching to working with an Indianapolis non-profit called Outreach Inc, which serves homeless youth.  My husband, Luke, worked there as well and that is where our paths first crossed.      - Liesel Mertes So as soon as I was meeting you, you were in this journey of really moving towards paying a lot of attention to your health and getting a lot healthier.   - Liesel Mertes What did that look like for you as you're also doing this like trauma, informed care and building your health up?   - Megan Flinn Yeah, so. Right. So the it was interesting because at the place where we worked, it was a hot, you know, outreach was a high stress place. You know, we're dealing with significant trauma with our youth, constant change of schedules, constant kind of like. In our own hyper vigilance, as we were interacting with some pretty extreme behavior from the youth and from the community, and so it was not uncommon, especially for the female staff, to gain significant weight there or to have issues with their health due to the stress that we were undergoing.   - Megan Flinn And so it was a constant conversation and outreach about, you know, we all did the paleo diet or we did we would work out, we would go do Cross Fit or things like that.   - Megan Flinn And so the conversation about can I part   - Liesel Mertes I want to ask because for people who have lived it, they're like, oh, absolutely. Yeah. You again, in that situation, for people who are maybe a couple of steps back who don't see that connection.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more. Why would gaining weight be something that would happen commonly?   - Megan Flinn Yeah. Yeah, so I think when you're in that setting and you're and all of us were passionate about the work, we signed up for it not just as a job, but as we saw how. We, as ourselves, could have an impact in lives for the better, so it wasn't just a job, it was a passion project for a lot of us or a movement out of our passion for most of us. And so we were very committed and it was difficult work.   - Megan Flinn So long hours, lots of crises.   - Megan Flinn You know, my typical work week is not a 40 hour work week. It was more 60 or 80 hour work week because there was just significant crises constantly. And so what that meant was, you know, you're exhausted, you're tired, so then to go like take care of your own body or go do exercise after this, like significant, exhausting day or week, most of us kind of didn't do that.   - Megan Flinn We had kind of centered our attention around, you know, helping the youth, helping the organization, focusing on the work and not so much on ourselves. And so that meant when we're hungry, we eat whatever was around, which was typically, you know, we had a budget to take you to McDonald's or Burger King or just whatever, fast food. So the food we were eating was not great. We didn't take we typically didn't have the time and space and energy to take care of our bodies.   - Megan Flinn So there's no way that, you know, the world of food deserts. There is one little organic grocery store that was way too expensive for our budget.   - Megan Flinn And so, yeah, the food that was available was not the help. It was not food that was necessarily providing the nutrients and care for our bodies that we needed, especially to deal with the stress and anxiety, which for us is one thing. And it was compounded a hundred fold for our youth who are physically stuck in that in those neighborhoods.   - Megan Flinn So we ate what they ate and we kind of did what they did, which was not move very much and not eat very healthy. And so over the course of a couple of months or years, you know, your body starts to change accordingly. And a lot of us, especially the female staff, like I said, would gain weight.   - Megan Flinn And so it was a constant conversation of how can we now then take care of ourselves? We're talking about self care.   - Megan Flinn We're talking about maintaining ourselves long term and remaining in the work and not growing too unhealthy from it to have to quit. And so. You know, the staff would go to Cross Fit or we would talk about the paleo diet or things like that, and so I had done pretty I had gone to some pretty extreme measures to get my body healthy.   - Megan Flinn And I was at this point, by the time of the surgery, probably one of the healthiest physically my body had been in my lifetime, definitely in my adult lifetime.   - Megan Flinn So I felt like I was finally in control. Now, I've had a long term autoimmune disease since I was six years old. So my battle of controlling my body and being an ownership of my body was lifelong. And this came at a time when I felt like I finally gained some power over some control over my body. And then that's when you know it all it all happened at this point of I went in for my yearly exam and my doctor said something's not right here.   - Megan Flinn Like, your stomach is really hard. It shouldn't be hard.   The consultations and tests began.  The doctors told Megan that she had hard fibroid tumors within her uterus.  They were obstructing her body’s functioning…but were probably not cancerous.  Megan makes plans for surgery.    - Megan Flinn And I remember on this girl's weekend, a couple weeks before the surgery was scheduled, I said to them. I will not be OK if this doesn't work. I will not be OK, and that was probably the only time out loud that I had admitted any fear about it, because I had found the doctor that said, I think I can make this work.   - Megan Flinn And so I was like, OK, she can make it work. Problem solved. It will be done.   - Megan Flinn And so there was this one moment before the surgery where I said to those friends who had known me longer than most friends, none of any friends in Indiana had known me or I said, I'm not going to be OK if this happens. And they yeah.   - Megan Flinn So that moment happened, but. I think it was pretty optimistic beforehand, it was, you know, no, and it was I remember.   - Liesel Mertes I think it was March 23rd, because I was actually sure birthday that you went into surgery, which is a selfish way to remember, but I will always remember because it was my birthday. Yeah. Now. So so you go in, you have this realization. I've given voice to I won't be OK. Yeah, what happened? Surgery.   - Megan Flinn So there's a there's like this interesting story where a friend of mine, Julia, who I had just asked her, I live here in Indiana.   - Megan Flinn My whole family is out in Pennsylvania. I go in for the surgery and just say I just need a ride to the hospital. You don't just drop me off. You don't have to go to say, and   - Megan Flinn so I went in that morning really thinking that after I went back, like, you know, they take you back a couple hours before things actually happen.   Megan is feeling good before surgery, optimistic and even a little flirtatious.     - Megan Flinn but one nurse was like a really attractive guy. And so I was like, OK, like, I was in a mood where I was just like, everything's great. Like, you know, this is going to work.   - Megan Flinn I was still like, look how cute I am here.   - Megan Flinn I remember still being in like a really great mood. Because they the doctors and everybody was really were really friendly and upbeat and we had even said, like, this is going to go well. So everything was really great until I went to sleep.   - Liesel Mertes And what did you awaken to?   - Megan Flinn I was back in the room that I had been waiting in before. It's like there was a waiting area and then they take you. They took me back somewhere else to do the thing in my spine or whatever that was back in that room. And I woke to a nurse. You just said and I don't know if she spoken to me before and I had just not been coherent enough to remember, but the only word she said where they had to take it all.   - Megan Flinn Yeah, that is what I woke up to and. My immediate reaction was I said, so no babies. That's literally what I said. I said so no babies.   There would be no babies.  The doctors found that one of the tumors was connected to a large blood vessel.  The bleeding would have been immense.    - Megan Flinn So the question was, do we just leave it in there and it still just ruins her fertility anyway, or do we take it all out? And she survives. She just doesn't have, you know, a uterus anymore at 32.   Megan has to stay in the hospital for the next three days.   - Liesel Mertes And so there's there's physical pain and recovery from pretty substantial surgery. Tell me about emotional weight of this being a baby, beginning with you.   - Megan Flinn It's interesting because I think your mother said it, one of the best ways of a lot of wisdom she is, is she's her voice was.   - Megan Flinn One of the ones that kind of just put words to it of. You know, a lot of women become mothers when they become mothers. It's kind of like this role that sometimes they're not like all the changes that you have to do with nurturing and caring. And all of that kind of comes when a baby comes and like you have to adjust and take on that role. And your mother kind of said, like, that is just kind of how I always was.   Megan Flinn That's who I was. Obviously not. And there's all the boundaries and the, you know, appropriate roles you take.   - Megan Flinn But that's the approach I took as a teacher. That's the approach I took with my Outreach girls. That's the approach I take. Even though as a therapist is like a nurturing, caring, aware of needs kind of approach. And so that kind of maternal eye or sense was something that was a part of me. Always and still is.   - Megan Flinn And so. For me, it was like, does God or. This bigger picture. It's saying I'm not good enough to be a mom? Which was, for me, like the lifelong hope, you know, I started babysitting when I was 12 and my neighbor, I mean. They had another 12 year old in the house, but they wanted me to be there to babysit them like I was always identified as a caretaker or that role since I was little.   - Megan Flinn And then my job in high school was to work in a daycare. I worked with babies and for over two years after school, you know, and. It was just this. You know, that internal battle that we all have of like, OK, things will happen or experiences will happen, and we have to battle this belief and remind ourselves like, no, we are good enough. This is this is like a lie or misconstrued, I belief about myself.   - Megan Flinn But then when something so final like this happens. It was so. To to not. Let myself believe it, like even God, it was not good enough, it was really hard.   - Megan Flinn And really complicated, right? Yeah, and so, uh. That part. Along with so that part was heavy in that part still.   - Megan Flinn  You know, I've done a lot of deep work in the past four years of who am I, what is my story? You don't start you don't have like even this experience led into the nonprofit of, like. Knowing who I am, knowing what I'm able to do, knowing. My skills and my innate personality and these God given gifts that I have are still very much needed and appropriate and worthwhile in this world.   - Megan Flinn And like what what direction can I go where those fit into what the world needs? And like that the nonprofit doesn't happen if the surgery doesn't happen.   - Megan Flinn And so in some regards, because it took this a look at myself and who I am and who God was and who the world is, where I was like. Bed, I was like stuck in my house, not even able to drive a car, or I had to have a friend come over and help me get up the stairs every night for six weeks.   - Megan Flinn This idea of having needs and having to acknowledge them and having to ask for help and to not to be forced to not be independent, I think for me was this realization of like.   - Megan Flinn Will someone show up for me? Will people show up for me the way that I've shown up for them? And that experience is like acknowledging my own needs and acknowledging. The fact that I'm not as independent as I would like to be. Was the first step and just kind of re-examining we talked about like looking at myself and who God is and who the world is. So that stuff was not a choice, but letting that happen and not being, you know, just kind of accepting.   - Megan Flinn That those people are going to show up and trusting that was a deep healing spot for me.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah,   - Megan Flinn And then from there, you know, I, I went. It was. OK, now what and what is still true of me, what is still my identity, like, who am I? And I was still like this nurturing, caring person. And shortly after the surgery, maybe. A year and a half after is when I started grad school, so less than the year I think after I was applying to grad school. It was less than a year after I was applying, and so it was like, this is the moment.   - Megan Flinn This is when. Like, this big thing happened, it it changed who I am and how I see myself. So now is the time for this big change of going back to grad school. And and the idea of becoming a therapist of like   - Megan Flinn I have, I have faced my own deep, like I have survived the thing, I think a lot of people have the great wounding or the great pain point of their life. And for those of us who have faced and wrestled through it and acknowledge it changes us.   - Megan Flinn We then can turn to others and kind of say, like, I've been to my deepest, darkest parts of myself and come out on the other side like. That's possible for you too, the hope of that is true for everybody, so having learned that kind of. That gave me the confidence to become a therapist, but kind of added to my like, no, if this is the work that I can do, I absolutely want to do it.   - Megan Flinn I want to provide that idea that hope is an option in those dark places and may not be not hope that like everything will be cut and dry and clean and pretty at the end. But that survival and goodness or something is available even in those dark spaces.   We will return to Megan and her story in a moment.  But first, I want to take a second to thank our sponsors.  If you are a business owner or an HR professional, you know that open enrollment season is upon us.  Get the help you need with FullStack PEO.  Fullstack is a full-service benefits firm for small business owners and entrepreneurs.  Let them take care of your people and their benefits so you can get back to running your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting, which is my company.  And I’m excited to announce my new, SHRM certified Empathy at Work Certificate program.  Come take a deep dive into your empathy behaviors.  Make meaningful changes and emerge with an empathy action plan.  We kick off on September 22.   And now, back to my conversation with Megan.  In the aftermath of her surgery, she was on her back, incapacitated, and plagued by big questions about her identity as a woman.  And the support of a community was vital.   - Megan Flinn There was a friend that showed up and. I remember just like. It was just like the either the very wrong moment or the very right moment for him to be there, but I just was like, I don't want to be bitter. It was like maybe three days after I had gotten home. So maybe a week after the surgery. And I was like, I know that this can be an experience that leads to people just being bitter.   - Megan Flinn And I don't want to be bitter, but I don't know how to not be like I don't know how to get there.   - Megan Flinn And so we just sobbed, I just sobbed and he just held my hand, it's only did he didn't speak these like powerful, effective words. He just held my hand while I cried. And then I had another friend who she just like, I didn't know her that well at the time. And she's become one of my close friends, probably because of this.   - Megan Flinn But she had had her own she'd been in a car accident earlier in the week. And so she was also on pain meds and she just crawled and laid next to me in bed. And we just laid there and people just showing up and sitting there.   - Megan Flinn Like I said at the time, I had two couches and they faced each other and I was always laying on one. And I just remember people just coming and sitting on the other one and just being there.   And of course, there were meals and things that were really helpful.   - Megan Flinn But I the thing that the most powerful part of it was the people that just came and sat with me. And it wasn't I don't remember any words that anybody said, but just people that sat with me during those six weeks was the most powerful. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And and didn't feel that compulsion to have to have the right words to make it all better.   - Megan Flinn In fact, when they did, it was like really it was the side of the question.   This is just a side editorial note.  I was one of the people that came and visited Megan in the aftermath of her surgery.  And even as we were talking for this interview, I recalled how much I talked during our time together.  I can rush to fill silence…and I have a great faith in my ability to make things better with my words.  If I could do it all over again, I would have just been quiet more often during those visits.    - Liesel Mertes Tell me about the misses. What are some of the I mean, those are the worst one.   - Megan Flinn Some of the misses were just. Yeah, the like the hope that was like No. You know, as this I almost hesitate to share this because it was this person who is much more charismatic in their faith than I am, and so they were like, God will give you a miraculous new uterus like that will happen. And I was like, please don't say that.   - Megan Flinn Like, that is not what... One, i don't think that will happen. I don't have hope for that. And I don't know that I want that. That's not the story that I want. Like, I don't even know up from down right now. But that doesn't feel right.   - Megan Flinn And people who. Just kind of ignored it. Who tell me more. Yeah, so like the. Just people who would like to interact with me knowing this had happened, it wasn't wasn't necessarily something I kept secret, but.   - Megan Flinn I mean, they knew I was out of work for six weeks, they knew I was stuck in my house for a significant amount of time, but would show up and talk about their life or the things that they were like, as if business as usual.   - Megan Flinn And it was almost like, you know, in hindsight. They were nervous, they were anxious, and it's a sensitive thing, right? It's not like I broke my leg or I have whiplash from a car accident.   - Megan Flinn Like this is an intimate thing. It's an intimate part of my body. You know, especially in a Christian culture, to talk about, it brings up my sexuality, it's things that we kind of shy away from so they would show up or they would I would engage in conversation even after those six weeks.   - Megan Flinn And it was like. As if nothing there was no acknowledgement of anything, and I just felt really like I'm different now, like   - Megan Flinn I remember feeling very different about who I am and about the whole world and to have people who had before this professed to be in my corner. Kind of not acknowledging anything had happened was really painful. To not even talk to all the people who just came and sat, they were just providing space. And for those who ignored it, it was like they couldn't they had no they had no space to give for it.   Yeah, yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And I, imagine, there's there's a there's a practical difference and experiencing that, like the people who who are profoundly uncomfortable, oftentimes it manifests itself in taking up the space, you know, that actually to leave the silence. Yeah. Makes them feel so uncomfortable. So they're filling it with their own stories or with inane conversation. Yeah.   - Megan Flinn Yeah. And I understand that. I just don't like it. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I feel well and that's part of the education of you know, that the conversation is the stuff that we can unconsciously do so easily. But when you actually take a half step back and say is is this actually like if I want to be helpful, is this being helpful or meaningful or is it just me avoiding my discomfort in the interaction? Right.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck that you're also so six weeks goes by and then you are having to show up in a tremendously outward facing capacity. We're actually giving care to people in circumstances of a lot of need that like like that's that's a returning to work is a big ask in that particular. Mm hmm.   - Megan Flinn Well, and I think something that was really interesting that I had predicted or I don't know that I predicted it, but other people had predicted it for me. Was that so a lot of my job at that point, I was working with the longer term.   - Megan Flinn at Outreach, and so what that means is a lot of them were having babies, a lot of females who are having babies and one of my just like life rules, which is funny because I told a friend to leave me at the hospital. Was that when you're in the emergency room or you're in a hospital thing, you should not be there alone. I just think. If you're in the emergency room, it just feels like you're at your most vulnerable point for a human to be in that position just alone.   - Megan Flinn I hated it. So I would often be in the emergency room or I one of my things that I often did in that role was I would be there while my girls delivered their babies. And I remember being predicted by other people that that would be really hard for me. And it was not. It was not. I mean, it was something like, oh, yeah, this I mean, I had already known that wouldn't happen for me.   - Megan Flinn That doesn't make the delivery and the resulting baby any less beautiful. And I was even part of like an adoption situation, one of my four children adoption. That was a family that I connected them with in that time. And it yeah, it wasn't   - Megan Flinn it was like everyone had these assumptions about what would impact me and what wouldn't. And that was probably the most frustrating part, was like the assumptions without being asked, you know, what actually was hard for me and I and I mean, you know this because you lived with me through some of that, but just feeling like.   Megan Flinn There was assumptions made about what would be hard or what wouldn't be, but no one was asking me. Not saying, like, is this hard for you? Or, what is draining in this part? And so, not feeling heard by the people around me was the most frightening part, not the actual work that they were that I was being asked to do.   – Liesel Mertes Tell me if this is accurate, is that. Within your work situation, under under the premise of caring for you, there were assumptions being made about your preferences or your capacity that you weren't actually being checked in with and that that actually left you feeling overlooked.   - Megan Flinn Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And I know things about like how your workplace showed up or didn't show up for you that you think like, yeah, this this was this allows me to reflect on what good managerial support is and what not good it is. Yeah.   - Megan Flinn I think I will say my co-workers, the people who were on my same like level within the organization, they showed up like there is no doubt that those are the people or their spouses, but they're the people that I remember sitting on my couch or sitting with me or even the volunteers that I had worked with through the organization. They showed up. I did not leadership, I don't know that I've had. During those six weeks, I did not have a single conversation with someone in leadership.   - Megan Flinn I thought I was doing and that I mean, one person there did say that, that they regretted that. But in terms of my functioning within the organization, it was still impacted, you know, because I didn't have those conversations with people in leadership and. That was really, really hard because and as you know, having been married to someone who works at outreach along.   - Megan Flinn You you're investing yourself, and I think you assume that that is known and seen and understood, and then when something like that happened to me and I felt so missed, it was like, oh, my investment is not seen the way I thought it was. I am not seeing the way I thought I was. And so that was really hard.   - Megan Flinn But, you know, like I said, like my co-workers should have, I remember like laying on my couch sleeping and I woke up to like the vacuum running and one of my co-workers had just brought over her own vacuum because she didn't want to ask me where mine was and was just I mean, someone else was another coworker had already been there to let her in my house, but she just vacuuming my house, not asking, just doing it.   - Megan Flinn And it was like at the moment I was like, what are you doing? And now when I think back, it's one of my favorite things that someone has done for me, like a huge thing. And in that moment or like taking care of my home, it's just not possible. That was released, and she is not someone that I was particularly very close to. So that was even more just like. She didn't know what to say or what to do, but she could hold up.   - Liesel Mertes I was just in I was just speaking at an event this morning and the question came like, well, what can you do to support someone that was like, people always have to eat?   - Liesel Mertes And everyone I was like there always still like nobody has time to clean their toilet, do stuff like when they're dealing with complex grief and, you know, bring your vacuum.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   As she reflects on the lingering impact of her experience, honesty is very important to Megan.   - Megan Flinn Being honest about what we've experienced, being honest about. Who we are and how things have impacted us, which also means like an awareness that we may not all have because our culture doesn't ask us to have it.   - Megan Flinn So in terms of like a workplace to just have that awareness and honesty and balancing that with like completing tasks that any business asked us to do. And that's that's the big thing for me is just like we have so much to get done in a day and to just always remember that all of us are humans doing the best we can.   - Megan Flinn It's just something that's been deeply different for me since this experience.   Yeah, yeah, thank you for adding that. Thank you, Meghan, I'm going to stop recording you. OK, so.   - Megan Flinn One of the thoughts that kept running through my head after the surgery, and I would say this out loud to people like close, close, close friends, people within my tight inner circle, I would say, like I can no longer do the thing that is definitively female.   - Megan Flinn And I had taught science when I was teaching. And so it was just very scientific, like I could no longer bear children. That is the thing that is definitively female amongst any species. Right.   - Megan Flinn And I just had this deep fear. You know, I'm a single woman expected and hopeful for a partner to do this life with and. It's never been an issue, it's never one, this topic and we've had this conversation about my body, this part of my body, it never it has never been an issue.   - Megan Flinn But I really, because of the story and the way we talk about motherhood and the way we talk about feminine sexuality and what our bodies are for within our culture, I was really just expecting rejection on all fronts from that. And I have never had that experience. So for me, it spoke to something about how we talk about women in our bodies and. We talk about value to talk about the value value of ourselves and the value of our bodies, right.   - Megan Flinn Like I think we're told to kind of disconnect our body from our person, from our personal. A lot of times. And that's just not how we were made.   And so. Yeah, it just for me was   - Megan Flinn I had this deep fear that I was no longer worth anything because I couldn't perform this act as a female. And in the years since and through the work that we've talked about me doing, like, no, I'm very much a female. I'm very much able to do most of the things that female can do. My body is still capable of things like, you know, I still have a nurturing hug.   - Megan Flinn I still have, you know, all this like a nurturing presence and these things that, you know, feminine presence and with my body that I have and so reconnecting that. It was a big deal and it kind of acknowledging the value of my body despite this action, that it couldn't do anymore.   - Megan Flinn Yeah, I was really deeply healing and to. Just kind of navigate how our culture talks about it has been. Just its own experience,   you know, how   - Liesel Mertes how have you changed the dynamic now and how you speak about what it means to embody femininity?   - Megan Flinn I've had, like, an almost redefined view of what is female, right? When I hear that the starting place with your experience of yourself, instead of having a place of what is held out to you as the arts where the should be is right is a rare move of adulthood.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I think it's interesting.   - Megan Flinn The art and the should as a therapist, I often it's one of the one of the few like training pieces that I've taken with me of like when I hear a client or someone say I should be doing this or I ought to be doing this, the should or ought is often a red flag of like. Well, according to whom? Like where does that message come from? And then recalibrating, like, what if the message was coming from within you, what would it be?   - Megan Flinn And that is definitely like a. Changed within me, like how I view myself and where who's. Who should not be let in there? It's much smaller than what it was before this all happened, for sure.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and one of the things that I consider a lot for myself and also talk about in my trainings is the reality that how we treat ourselves is so often what we're translating and how we're treating other people. And even as you talk about your work in therapy, I imagine it's only expanded as you give yourself more space to embody that, to come out professionally in the space that you grant to those you work with.   - Megan Flinn Mm hmm. Yeah, I would. I would say it's. I think I am I think I am shocked, but by how much I really love my life post-test because my life is so different than I wanted it to be five years ago. But I really genuinely love my life and what it is right now. And so I give that excitement to my clients about their potential and their possibilities. And they that, I think, is something that makes me unique as a therapist, that they don't often have people who are excited about who they are.   - Megan Flinn And I like as I get to know my clients, I genuinely grow more and more excited about who they are as I get to see them more. And that, I think, does come as a direct result of this experience.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Megan Just showing up matters…and your words can oftentimes get in the way of deep comfort.Megan talked about the importance of the friend who just sat there, silently, with her as she cried.  In our hurry to “fix” grief and make things better, our talking often gets in the way of truly listening and being present. If you are a manager or someone’s supervisor, make sure that you take the time to check in with them while they are away on sick leave.And this check-in shouldn’t just be about work projects or getting on the same page regarding clients.  Set a time in your calendar to call or the visit just to hold space for hearing about how they are acutally doing.  Megan’s managers never checked in with her while she was away…and she felt that gap. Be careful how you talk to and about women regarding their reproductive choices.We make so many flippant comments, asking women when they are going to start a family or if they are having any more children.  This is tenuous territory.  You never know the story behind what you can see.  And so much of society has, historically, bound the value of being female to being able to reproduce.  Avoid these minefields.  Stop asking unless someone offers you information.  And if you want to go deeper, consider your own biases and culturally conditioned conceptions of what it means to embody femininity.  After hearing this episode, is there anything that you want to revisit or revise?   OUTRO   Hamza International Care:  https://www.hamzainternationalcare.org  

- Chrissy Brack But if you want to know what it's like to be a special needs parent, it's pretty much like this year all the time, in a way, maybe with like less threat of death around every corner. Like there's not like that that like pandemic piece of it. But as far as the amount of hurdles and unknowns and what's going to happen and what's that going to look like and how do I even put anything into place to get through? We'll make a plan for one week and then everything changes the next week. Right. That's pretty typical for us, I would say, for how it's been the entire time from really the time I would say my son was two until now.   INTRO   Today, we are going to hear from Chrissy Brack about mothering a child on the autism spectrum:  the challenges, the recalibration, the joy, and how it has transformed her as a person.  Chrissy sees herself as an advocate for her son and her voice is just one of the many parents out there walking a similar journey.  But Chrissy, more than anything, told me that she looks forward to handing her son the proverbial mic more and more.  I learned so much in this episode and I am excited to share it with you.    But first, a little bit more about Chrissy.  Chrissy was a year behind me at college and we began to spend time together in Cuba, where we converged during a study abroad program.    - Liesel Mertes So, Chrissy, you and I met on I think it was a trip to Cuba, like I have memories of you in Havana, which is a really cool way that we met. We met on a trip to Havana.   - Chrissy Brack It's true. That is a true fact of this relationship.   Chrissy was a Spanish major, which meant that she knew much more of what was going on than I did as a poly-sci major.  Chrissy is now a music teacher, she runs a small studio in Fishers, Indiana where she teaches violin and the piano, although her work has definitely been affected by the demands of COVID.  She also teaches music, part-time, at a local school.    - Liesel Mertes So what led you to in your mid 30s teaching music from your Spanish degree?   - Chrissy Brack I came to music almost by an accident. I've been a musician my whole life and I was staying at home with my son. And there was a post in my neighborhood Facebook group at the time where someone asked if there was anybody or if anybody knew anybody who could teach her step daughter piano.   Although Chrissy had never formally taught, she answered the ad and begun.  She has been busy ever since, with a long waitlist.    - Chrissy Brack And I love working for myself and I love getting to pick really how my schedule can fit around my kids and what they need from me.   Chrissy is the mother of two boys, Sam and Joe.  Joe is the oldest and he is on the autism spectrum, which asks a particular level of care.  But Joe is much more than a data point on a spectrum of autism.    - Liesel Mertes what are some of the wonderful things that you delight in about Joe?   - Chrissy Brack One of the best things about Joe is that. He engages with every single person as if they have the same amount of societal weight, intelligence attributes like whatever it is, or like we think of everybody in these boxes of power and structure and hierarchy and like that person smarter than me or, oh, wow, I get way more done than someone else does in a day or like, oh, I need to get to know this person because they can help me further some of my career goals or all this other stuff.   - Chrissy Brack And because he doesn't buy into all the society B.S.. Right. Like it doesn't like, why would he think the mayor is more important than the garbage man or anything else like that? Doesn't make any sense to him and is truly beautiful to witness and to see. And I really love that about him. And he's the kindest human probably in part because of that, because he really wants everyone to feel love and accepted for who they are.   Joe is eager and inquisitive, but Chrissy knew, early on, that there was something that wasn’t quite typical about Joe.      - Chrissy Brack So somewhere in there, in those young toddler years and I remember sitting there and just saying that I wasn't really sure what was going on, but it wasn't registering to me as what I would have described as normal, which is not a word I love, but just that something is different and I don't really know why. And I had a doctor after doctor tell me that my child was fine and that he was on track and I had nothing to be concerned about.   - Chrissy Brack And then I kept pushing and pushing until we got to see a specialist. And then when my son was four, we received an autism diagnosis.   It was two years of visits to all sorts of specialists before Joe was given a diagnosis.  He was bright, vocal, and loved to play.     - Liesel Mertes And just because, you know, there might be those listening who are in their own kind of discernment process. You mentioned, you know, this is this is a child who's taught themselves to read. They're very verbal. And yet there were still some lingering behaviors. What, what were those things that you said? Oh, yeah. This specifically is causing me to continue in this process.   - Chrissy Brack What we would probably, as parents just describe as tantrums. But in a way, especially now that I've had what is considered a typical developmental stage with a child who just went through those toddler years and have seen what tantrums look like versus what I experienced. They weren't tantrums to test a boundary, if that makes sense. They were tantrums because like, he could not deal in the same sense that if I kept you up for two days in a row and did not give you food and then asked you to go run a marathon, you would probably start crying.   - Chrissy Brack Right. It was like that. But with things that don't normally cause that kind of reaction in a kid and just the ability to recover from those meltdowns or emotional episodes and the ability to what I describe as a pivot right. To turn the chapter and do something else was just not there as well as some social skills.   - Chrissy Brack My son is actually pretty social and interactive. We had a lot of people who did not believe us when we got our diagnosis.   - Chrissy Brack But it's definitely it's a different set of social engagement. And I would just watch how other kids of the same age would kind of interact and I could just tell it wasn't better or worse. I could just tell the way my kid did. It was a little different and all those things added up.   - Liesel Mertes And for those who are listening and are unfamiliar, tell me about what diagnosis on the autism spectrum entails as far as receiving one or what that means, what it means, like there are some outdated terms and ways in which even just the, the descriptors that continue to grow.   - Liesel Mertes So I'd love to get for you to give an overview of what it.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What it means to have that diagnosis.   - Chrissy Brack Yeah. So and I also I should have said this up front, but when we talk about people who are autistic, there are plenty of people who are autistic who are absolutely capable of sharing their experiences and their perspectives and their wisdom. And so I certainly just want to clarify that I am not trying to speak for anyone who is autistic. I'm merely speaking to my experience and hoping to come alongside and be supportive of that as well as, you know, for every person, much like I think most of us, we don't like to be defined by the way things are necessarily supposed to be defined.   - Chrissy Brack And so, I'm going to do my best to describe it. But that's my little disclaimer that how someone who is autistic views this and describes it is correct over whatever I'm about to say. So give them over me. That's what I'm going to tell you. But when we look at something like autism spectrum, don't think of it as a linear thing with a left and a right where we move along this sliding scale and we're trying to somehow move to what we think of as typical or what we in the past would have called normalcy.   - Chrissy Brack That's not it at all. Almost think of it as more like a circle.   - Chrissy Brack Of how our brains work and typical people circles, let's say I'm just making this up, let's say you kind of have your circle and typical people circle goes in rainbow order, you know, and like a color, real fashion. When we talk about autism spectrum, some of those pieces do not line up in that Roy give way. It could be certain parts and certain ways. It could be language. It could be expressive language. It could be social language.   - Chrissy Brack How we talk to one another. It could be sensory. It could be all sorts of different things. So there's really not just one thing that defines what it is. It also does not necessarily define anybody's ability to be competent or capable or intelligent,   - Chrissy Brack but nor, on the flip side, doesn't necessarily define someone as what we think of as a savant. One of the first things people usually tell me when I say I have a son who is autistic is well, you know, like Albert Einstein was probably autistic and like, well, that's a really cute way to reinterpret history.   - Chrissy Brack Like, the truth is that there are lots of families who have a lot of cognitive struggles with their children that get dismissed because there's this assumption that a lot of autistic people are savants and geniuses.   - Chrissy Brack And this other thing. And that's actually I think I could be wrong on the statistic, but I think I once read it was something like less than 10 percent of the autistic population falls into that kind of category. So it really is quite broad.   - Chrissy Brack And we also don't think of it as a functioning factor, because when you think about the term low functioning, which is a term often used to describe people who are autistic versus high functioning, it's basically saying that we reward certain behaviors or certain responses in people as more human or more acceptable.   - Chrissy Brack And that's really just something I have tried to step out of as a mom with a child who is a little bit different that way, because it's first of all, it's like ableist, right? It's kind of a jerk move. And then secondly, just because someone appears to be well functioning in a certain way or in a certain situation doesn't mean it's not painful for them. And I think that's something we have to keep at the forefront of our minds when we talk about any disability.   - Chrissy Brack Is that just because someone can manage a certain thing doesn't mean on the inside there isn't a lot of difficulty or pain to engage that way. Does that kind of help map it out a little?   - Liesel Mertes That really does. You spoke you spoke with a lot of insight that I am just still processing really good on that. I just want to clarify that especially provocative at the end when you were saying, like, just because someone's functioning doesn't mean that they're not on the inside. Is that driving us to really consider, like, even people who are functioning with their own capabilities that people would define as normal? We don't really know the interior story of what that is demanding of them for a given situation.   - Chrissy Brack Yeah, I think that that's huge.   - Liesel Mertes So how does that look for you as a mom in a given moment where you're interacting with your son?   - Liesel Mertes Because it's true. You know, you can speak descriptively of what you've experienced with people on the autism spectrum. You can definitely speak from your own experience. So you're gaining this insight. And when there is a situation where it's like, oh, you know, this is a response that's asking a lot of me, not that you are perfectly, but what are some of the things that you are like reinforcing to yourself with your parenting in that moment?   - Chrissy Brack Well, I wish I had some beautiful book to promote here or some personal thing I could put out to the community. But it's really, first of all, just a day by day thing, which I think is true with most parenting situations, especially in this year. But absolutely, when I think about it, one of the things I try very, very hard to remind myself is that. What my son does is not always a reflection of how well of a job I have done at something, and that is a very difficult thing for me to accept.   - Chrissy Brack I have a pretty type, a perfectionistic Enneagram 3 personality. And so to accept that I cannot get the situation to a place where things can run smoothly all the time is a very hard thing to accept. And then I kind of have this ultimate choice that I could buckle down and fight it out so that I could win or I can look at, OK, so how do we have a loving, supportive environment for all of the members of our family, including myself?   - Chrissy Brack Because I, we all, hit a wall at some point with certain things and can only take so much of anything. And I think we all have found that limit with our children this year, regardless of whether or not they're diagnosed with anything but. Just to think about that and to think and then to rethink, when I talk about the things that are important in my life right now and ideas I'm reinforcing, it's less about how do I get my kid to do X, Y and Z, because that to me is not the end game.   - Chrissy Brack When I look at it all, to me, the bigger prize to be had is how do I stop looking at the world, first of all, as a prize to be won? And secondly, how do I stop looking at these systems as. What should be because just because something is the way it always has been doesn't mean it's good or healthy or should be the norm. And how do I also get these systems to not just accommodate and support people like my kid, but really any type of diversity?   - Chrissy Brack And, and then that pours into my family, too, like we have a rule at family gatherings when we have people over to our house, like in the previous years when we've hosted Christmas or whatever, that our son is allowed to go have a long time in his room any time he wants. There's no apology. There's no need to come sit like your grandma is here from out of town, like you have to come spend time with her. There's none of that because that's an unfair normal, like a social norm that we accept.   - Chrissy Brack Right. That when, like we have family from out of town for the holidays, we all spend as much time together as possible and make that count where to him that time is not any more valuable because it's stressful, like it's not accomplishing anything beneficial for anyone to force him when he's tapped out to sit there. And it just leads to a lot of behaviors that are super detrimental to everyone. So that's an example of when I think about like the system or the situation, like how do we make the world better as opposed to how do I get my kid to be better by the world standard?   - Liesel Mertes Well, and that brings up you know, we're going to talk some about social supports and how people move to or away from you.   - Liesel Mertes In the midst of that, I'm struck that the move with Christmas or family gatherings is potentially flying in the face of a lot of expectation. What was it like to come to the process of being like, we need to do this and now we're telling all of you that we're doing this at home?   - Chrissy Brack And I wish again, I just wish I had some magical answer for that. I think there is something about. I'll say motherhood, because that's my only experience as a parent, but I will say I think there's something in particular about motherhood that rebirth you and to me, when I had my son it I kind of had to let go of this. How do I meet everyone's expectations? Because he gets to have the priority and that can be daunting.   - Chrissy Brack But I had to let go of caring what other people thought for my own sanity because I would lose my mind if I did nothing but try to make as what everyone else considers is acceptable or normal. And then also, I would really not just be doing my kid a disservice, but almost doing the equivalent of abuse with him to make him do something that is just so painful or harmful or not in his nature to do. And when you look at it through that lens, it becomes a little bit easier because you almost don't feel like you have a choice.   - Chrissy Brack And it is hard because then for me, because I'm the grown up right. Like so I get to say that. And when I got a diagnosis for my son, I had this picture of all of these special needs parents in my head, and they all were sort of bathed in this like holy soft glow focus, light of just peace and love and all these things that I am not for.   - Liesel Mertes Maybe not all the time.   - Chrissy Brack I mean, I'm a pretty I mean, and I admit this, I'm a pretty high strung person and I am pretty like high maintenance that way. And so like to be like, oh, I'm just going be one of those moms who doesn't care. Now, what people think of me is definitely not innate to me. But the truth is I have to be the grown up here because he is not the grown up. And that's true for my other kid, too, that I'm going to have to be the one to figure this out because it's on me.   - Chrissy Brack But that doesn't mean it doesn't come with a personal cost and turmoil and grappling because it does. And I think sometimes special needs parents can be hesitant to say that because it makes us sound like horrible human beings. But it is an exhausting job, often without a lot of support or a lot of things are not available to us that are available to a lot of families. And a lot of things that other people can assume, like I can send my kid to school is not something I have ever been able to assume.   - Chrissy Brack So I am sort of like chuckling just a tiny bit. Everybody this year who's saying my kid has to go to school, my kid has to go to school when like, that is not an assumption I've ever gotten to make. Yes, legally, the state has to provide him education. But whether or not that would be in his best interest and I would send him really just depends on what that system looks like. But that is a lot to grapple with.   - Chrissy Brack And you do mourn things, and that doesn't mean I don't love my kid or I want him to be different. It just means I have to fit with that and mourn it for a little bit as I adjust my expectations and understanding of my life.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of your personal practices were like relational support that help you as you are making space for that grief and mourning just in the everyday demands of work like food has to be made and you have to be clothed.   - Chrissy Brack Dinner have to still happen?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, always.   - Chrissy Brack So a couple of things. I'm part of a couple of online communities. One is called Raising Children Un-Fundamentalist, and it is run by the lovely Cindy Brandt who I've never met or anything like that. She's an author and a like a kind of a public figure for this mantra of fundamentalist parenting and gentle parenting and kind of thinking about things out of the box. And this may sound silly, but honestly, sometimes just reading the posts in there and how people are being so thoughtful and intentional, intentional excuse me about the way they are parenting their kids, like, just gives me kind of that little inspiration that other people are doing the hard things, too.   - Chrissy Brack And it kind of pushes me forward when I feel like so alone or so overwhelmed to know that, just to know that there's really someone else in the world doing it, even if their situation looks nothing like mine can be pretty inspiring. And I do have quite a few friends who, whether it's special needs or their kids, have just gone through things or their lives are just difficult for another reason, who kind of live in that realm of otherness and just having those people who get into text and to reach out and to respond to nonjudgmental on your bad days is really helpful.   - Chrissy Brack And the final piece and to be honest myself, I guess I should say, because if I'm not honest, other people don't know that invitation is there build so much community through that authenticity, even if it's scary to step into or even in calling out some of the things that I have thought were toxic or not OK in an environment can be scary. But then I think, like, if I take that risk on and walk through it, I've paved the way now for everyone else to avoid that toxic environment.   - Liesel Mertes Do you remember in a way that is noteworthy, like some of the first times of putting yourself out there in those vulnerable situations, whether that was expressing need or calling out something that you knew was doing damage.   - Chrissy Brack Oh, I don't know if I have anything off the top of my head. Like, one of the things when my son was little and this is such a small example, was that he was not a kid who could be flexible about his sleep schedule.   - Chrissy Brack And I mean, no one ever gave us a super hard time about it. But he was our first. And I think people thought it was a little bit of a first time mom syndrome. Right. Like, oh, that's cute. You keep your kid on the schedule or whatever. Like by the time you have four kids, like no one's on the schedule. But now, having had my second and seeing how much more flexible he is able to be, it's almost like sometimes I feel like Joe's brain works overtime, both in part because he's a pretty active and brilliant kid, and both in part because he is constantly managing a piece that none of us are usually managing.   - Chrissy Brack And I think for him when he was little or sleep was such an important reset and refresh of that. And he really just could not cope if he didn't get it. And so I spent almost two years of my life. He took a two to three hour nap in the afternoon and I lived and died by that nap time. And I like it's such a small thing. Right.   - Chrissy Brack But like people do sometimes look at you like you're a little nuts when you're like, no, like we are home for nap time and just like, no, I can't do that or no, I won't schedule that appointment then or no, you can't come over and hang out with us or whatever it may be.   - Chrissy Brack And I always tried to do it in a gracious way. But I mean, I know we had family members at times who were probably super annoyed with us that like we just came late to the party or had things at weird times or like I put my kid down in the middle of his birthday party and I did not really care, but just little things like that. You really you just kind of have to put your stake in the ground and say, like, this is something that our family really needs to function and you don't walk this life.   - Chrissy Brack And that's the other thing I usually tell myself when I feel stupid. I don't want to be judged, but when I kind of feel like people think, oh, if you would just and then insert whatever blanket would be, what I tell myself is like if they had to be the one that spent the rest of the day getting objects thrown at their head because their kid was overtired and couldn't self regulate, they would probably go ahead and put their kid down for a nap, too.   - Chrissy Brack If you want to come and live my life, like feel free to tell me how to do it. But unless you're the one cleaning the toilets around here, you don't get to say that.   We will come back to the interview in just a moment.  But, I would like to take a second to thank our sponsors.  First, we are sponsored by Fullstack PEO.  COVID-19 has you worrying about a host of things, from hand sanitizer to toilet paper…and those are just the easy ones!  Employee benefits does not have to be one of your headaches.  The people at FullStack help entrepreneurs and small businesses, taking care of your people’s benefits so you can get back to work.  And they really are a top notch crew.  I know a number of the staff personally and the way that they show up for their clients is fantastic.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  This is my company, and we provide so many ways for you grow in the skillset we are discushing, including the the Empathy at Work Certificate program, customized keynotes, and one-on-one coaching.   Now, back to the interview with Chrissy…   - Liesel Mertes What would you say are some of the biggest ways that you feel missed by people as you walk this journey of being a mom to someone on the spectrum of autism?   - Chrissy Brack I think. Well. I always am concerned, first of all, that. Because in some situations I have to disclose his diagnosis and not like someone's holding me up against a wall, but like I would not it would not be fair to anyone if I sent him to school and didn't tell anybody he was autistic. Right. Not fair to him. Not fair to the teachers. Right. And so in situations like that, where I feel like I have to disclose his diagnosis, there's always this concern to me that people will see his diagnosis first and not him as a person first, and also that their mind will first go to like, how do I manage things I view as negative as opposed to what does this person have to teach me about the world or the way we look at things, especially socially, that maybe I would not have gotten if I didn't get to interact with them?   - Chrissy Brack Because the truth is, I often say I think Joe has taught me more about life and God and friendship and love than I could have ever thought was possible from one little six year old. And I think if you can come at it like that, like what does this individual have to give us as opposed to, oh, man, how are we going to make it through dealing with some of these difficult things this individual presents us with? I think it's an important perspective change and I think then you get to see my kid for who he really is, which is all I want.   - Chrissy Brack And then for me personally, I think the biggest area I feel most at and not in a huge way, maybe in part because I removed myself from any type of groups or environments in which I would feel this way. But is that that can't you just blank that I already mentioned this idea that if I did the right thing or worked harder or were somehow more competent, that my life would not be so hard.   Chrissy Brack And the truth is, I was literally saying this to a friend. Was it last night or the night before where especially this year? I'm like, it does not even matter how much like no matter what I do, it just is always a disaster. Right? I'm like, whether I do the good things and all the hard work and go above and beyond disaster, I do nothing. I give up, I wallow in self pity disaster. I try to like, get it halfway. Right, not try too hard. Disaster like it just doesn't matter. Right.   - Chrissy Brack It's not like a it's not a cause and effect situation for a lot of special needs. And I think there is this assumption if you just got the right therapy, if you just got the right support, if you had the right thing right. Or if you were in the right school district or if we did this or that, that somehow my life would not look the way it is, as if I have not already thought and tried one million different things to get to the point where I am right now.   - Chrissy Brack I think I don't think there's anything wrong with offering suggestions. I just think sometimes the way it can be done.   - Chrissy Brack And your intention behind suggesting something like should not be to fix my kid or fix my life, but to say like, wow, what kinds of things would really support you, given how some of the challenges you face that really aren't going to go away?   - Liesel Mertes Right. The, the armchair critic that they're with their suggestions. And for those that, you know, think, man, I, I just don't know. I don't know what it's like. Would you open up what a hard day looks like for you as a parent?   Yeah, you can be.   - Chrissy Brack And I'm going to be careful. There's more things I could say, but I'm not going to say just because he deserves to be as a human as well. But I mean, it could be everything from.   - Chrissy Brack Like, I mean, I got called like I like my joke, my kid made it maybe two months into kindergarten before I got the call to come pick them up because they needed him to be sent home. And everyone is like, that's not legal. They can't ask you to do that. And I'm like, I think they just didn't know what else to do. I think they were just sort of like, you won't stop and we don't quite know what's going on.   - Chrissy Brack And so, you know, like, that's not a great day when you have to go pick your kid up in the middle of the school day, because no one quite knows what to do with how he's acting that day. And that particular week, he had gotten out of the building and out into like almost the road, I think it was three or four times that week. And so, I mean, that's like I didn't even want to send him back after I went and picked him up.   - Chrissy Brack It wasn't like, well, tomorrow's a new day. Like we're going to start fresh. Right? I was like, no, you're not going to school tomorrow because I'm scared you're going to go run into a four lane street and get hit by a car. So now you have to.   - Chrissy Brack I feel so scary. So then it would be like, OK, well, now my day looks like you have to stay home with me and we have to figure this out. And I have to call a meeting with your teachers and see what's going on and talk to your, you know, our our therapy support team and see if they have suggestions. And now I have to schedule a meeting with eight different people on top of which, you know, I mean, typical kid stuff, right?   - Chrissy Brack Oh, my gosh. You just dumped that bowl of chips everywhere and dumped out your water cup and like, oh, my gosh, did your brother take off his diaper and let you know? I mean, like, all that stuff, like, am I a few weeks ago, I had a day where I did nine loads of laundry back to back and every because none of them could wait because every single item in there have poopy on it.   - Chrissy Brack And I mean, nine is a lot in a day. That's one an hour right where I'm just back to back cleaning up poop. And I was like, could it just be something else today? Guys, I don't know what, like, spilled some orange juice, but like over the poop, like. Yeah.   - Chrissy Brack So yeah, I can look like any number of things or really hoping like when Joe took his NWEA test which is test the school uses to kind of assess where your child's at and where their progress has gone over the last year. I was really like I said, he's a smart kid and I was really hopeful for him that this test would be a way he could show people something about himself that may not be apparent if they're just working on behavior management.   - Chrissy Brack And partway through the test, his iPad stopped working and his internal thought process was, oh, this isn't working. When dad gets home tonight, I'll just tell him my iPad is not working.   - Chrissy Brack So he didn't tell anyone that it wasn't working. And so his score was obviously reflective of you did not take half the test. Right. And that's not the end of the world. Right. But that is a little heartbreaking as a mom to know that he didn't really get the chance to show what he was capable of in a way that I would have liked. And so, like, that's a hard day to.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that. Well, and like you mentioned, I mean, so any parent out there right now has had the wrench thrown into the works with covid-19. I imagine that there has been a tremendous and particular disruption within social support services for families like yours. Could you speak a little bit to the added burden that that disruption has been on top of just the now normal crazy Avenal?   - Chrissy Brack Well, this has been to me the greatest gift of this year. And what I've been telling people when they talk to me about that particular subject that in a lot of ways I will not lie. This year is not all that different for me. It is in the sense that my own personal supports and things are not there the way they normally look. And sure, there's more work for all of us. Right. Going to the grocery store is more work than it used to be, that kind of thing.   - Chrissy Brack But if you want to know what it's like to be a special needs parent, it's pretty much like this year all the time, in a way, maybe with like less threat of death around every corner. Like there's not like that that like pandemic piece of it. But as far as the amount of hurdles and unknowns and what's going to happen and what's that going to look like and how do I even put anything into place to get through? Right.   - Chrissy Brack We'll make a plan for one week and then everything changes the next week. Right. That's pretty typical for us, I would say, for how it's been the entire time from really the time I would say my son was two until now. That's like   - Chrissy Brack So yes, it has been challenging and I can share some of our disruptions. But on the same level, I like looking at people and I'm like, oh, well, well. Come to the party, we ended the committee because none of us had time to welcome people anymore, but like grab a cup of coffee and pull up a chair and like, yeah, none of you are going to get through what you thought you were going to get through today.   - Liesel Mertes Is there anything that you would say to this particular moment out of what you've had to be learning along the way as a parent?   - Chrissy Brack I guess if I had to give a piece of advice from what I have done over the last six years that I think is applicable to many people now that maybe had not been in the past, it would be two fold, the first of which is a lot of the things we may think are essential or important are probably a lot less essential or important when it really comes down to it, especially right now. You have to pick and choose with a lot of discernment and it could also be a situation.   – Chrissy Brack And when it's much, much better to start small and add in, as opposed to like trying a very large task or a lot of things and figuring out that it's all going to fall apart. And that is something my kid has definitely taught me because I am an overachiever. And so seeing that and recognizing that we are all limited in a way and being really comfortable with finding those parts of ourselves that we don't like, the parts where we do hit a wall and no, we can't do something we thought we could and and evaluating that before it happens, because that's saying no to things which can be challenging.   - Chrissy Brack And it's also accepting our own weaknesses and limits, which can be challenging depending on your personality. And that is something my son does with a lot of grace and ease and that I've had to help him do as a mom that has made it easier for me to accept to like I know I was at a point and maybe, I don't know, April, where, like, I could not go to the store more than, like, once a week because, like, mentally, it was just super exhausting and everything was so new and terrifying and everything was so different and there were a lot of blinds to wade in and all those things.   - Chrissy Brack And I just had to recognize that was taking an emotional toll on me. And I didn't really want to admit it. I wanted to think I was bigger than being affected by all those things. But it served me a lot better to just say, nope, like let go of that and it's OK. And and so that would kind of be the first thing and then the second thing. And now it's kind of like I lost my train of thought, where was I going with that?   - Chrissy Brack And I think maybe just not don't be afraid. To reinvent what normal is or assume what we thought of as normal is worth getting back to a lot of ways, but don't rush to that conclusion because I would never want to go back to the way I thought of things or saw things prior to really learning what I've learned after receiving a diagnosis for my son. I would never want to go back to thinking about the world that way. I feel that I am a much better human because of him, and I will always have him to thank for that.   - Chrissy Brack It's very humbling in a way, when your five year old with autism can be a better person than you can be because you're caught up in your head with your expectations and demands and all this other stuff, and you realize you're totally missing the point and that he knows it all along. So so just really like look at that bigger picture of what is truly important and the ways we accomplish that. And don't be afraid to get creative or you can let go of things that you think you can't let go of.   - Chrissy Brack And it may just be OK. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I always like to ask you spoke in some of the ways in which you've been messed up.   - Liesel Mertes  What have been some of the most important supportive gestures that your community has been able to make that have really meant something to you?   - Chrissy Brack I mean, someone once told me. If you want to love somebody's family and love them, well, feed them and like. The Times, I can't even tell you how many times I have lost so like so much traffic, not by like a factor of two, but by a factor of two hundred, how many times someone has showed up at my door with lunch or dinner or a cup of coffee because, you know, they they heard my son eloped.   - Chrissy Brack And that's like when he escapes, right. That he's eloped and, you know, like I had to call the police and all this other stuff. Right. And that's really, really stressful to go to, whether it's that or just those days where I had like nine loads of laundry and those kinds of things, like really I don't think you can go super wrong with just bringing someone a meal or a treat. And it sounds so superficial, but any of those little tasks that take that energy and focus that you have to now give to something else and just have it cared for is huge.   - Chrissy Brack And also, it's a good reminder to me, like when someone shows up with food for me, that I have to eat, too, and that I have those limits and I have to stop and and do that, even if I feel like we're in the middle of a crisis, because if I don't eat, like, I'm not going to make it through the end of the day. So that would be like some of the best things I've had is just people who showed up at my door with a meal or texted me that it's on its way and it's coming and to not bother cooking.   - Chrissy Brack And I, I think the people who I engage with on a really deep level who are just willing to hear about the hard things and not try to fix them. But also, more than that, it's not always just about the hard thing I've dealt with that day, but also how it impacts the way I have looked at my life. And the world around me can sometimes feel a little bit like an existential crisis. And for the people who have not been afraid to hear how those things have informed my views now, and even if they don't come to that same conclusion, I have space for it and say that my journey is valid and my conclusions are valid because of the life I've lived, and to not try to be corrected and to like, well, yeah, but we know X, Y and Z, right?   - Chrissy Brack And I'm like, I don't know the alphabet anymore. Right. Like it all it taken away.   - Chrissy Brack And so it not just understanding that day to day hardship, but how it impacts us on a bigger level and informs us and not shying away from that, even if you don't truly understand it again, that willingness to learn and be served by something we don't innately have or are experienced with, I think is helpful and humbling task for us all.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that. Well, and that that willingness to be in process with you without having to rush you to a conclusion. And that's hard for people. I mean, we want we want those around us to be happy and we want we don't like cognitive dissonance and we stop questioning that stuff. That seems important to me is oftentimes the vibe that we give off instead of being with people in it.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Chrissy believes that true inclusion is about honoring and valuing diversity, not just tolerating it…and that this radical move flies in the face of power structures but, ultimately, benefits everyone.  And she wants to see more of this true inclusion everywhere, but especially in the workplace.    - Chrissy Brack My husband and I are both business owners, so I don't say any of this lightly or not from the perspective that I do not know what that is like, because my husband has employed up to 60 people at one time and has been the end of the line.   - Chrissy Brack And the boss and I work for myself and have to carry that whole load. So I get it. And I'm not just trying to say that like they need to do everything because I get that because I am the they too. But when I think about my child and the world I want for him, I would really hope that when he is an adult, we live in a society that values the things he has to offer because of his diversity and not just say like we hire people with disabilities because we're good people, which like there's a place for that, too, right?   - Chrissy Brack I'm not describing that work at all, but I do think my son and people like him or people who are different from him have so much to bring. And we have to see the value of that and find ways to think about it where when we're usually still stuck on, did they have a firm handshake? And look me in the eyes doesn't actually necessarily say anything about the kind of quality of work they can do or what they can bring to the community at large and to just kind of rework some of those things in our own heads and in our own places where we have influence and make it, you know, to see what they bring to the table as opposed to making them come to the table in a way we think of as acceptable.   - Chrissy Brack And I really hope that for him one day and I think I see positive changes and I'm I am hopeful for that.     MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways from my conversation with Chrissy: Respect the boundaries of parents living with a child on the autism spectrum.This is just an extension of the basic premise of respecting ALL parents and their boundaries, but it is especially important here.  Chrissy bravely puts the needs of her son first, realizing how central she is to his well-being.  But this sometimes means strong lines in social situations.  Respecting boundaries means that, if they choose to leave a play date early, you DON’T try to cajole them to stay or put on a guilt trip, “Do you really have to go?”  Instead, you say, “It was great to see you!” and leave it at that. Bring food.Food is such an immediate, necessary gesture of care. Be a friend that listens, just listens, without judgment or having to make it better.And, as you listen, remember that it is alight to have limits.  We all do and COVID has thrown us up against them, hard.  Don’t be afraid to look bravely at your limits and to imagine a new normal. This is a sort of bonus point.Chrissy mentioned online communities like Raising Children UnFundamentalist that I have linked in the show notes.  A supportive community matters.   OUTRO   Raising Children UnFundamentalist with Cindy Wang Brandt:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/665348930273216/      

- Stacey Ballard I think the most important thing is that 40 percent of Americans live with at least one chronic illness, 40 percent of Americans. So we all know somebody who lives with chronic illness. And so we we know that those people are out there working right now, just like I had to work, whether I felt good or bad. So we just need to be nice to each other even.  You know, we need to understand that we're all going through something, whether it's chronic illness, whether it's addiction, whether you're in an abusive relationship. We are all we all have our own story of stress and what is causing issues in our life. I just wish we could be nicer to each other, more understanding.   INTRO Today, Stacey Ballard shares about living with multiple, chronic illnesses.  From hyperthyroidism to endometriosis to Crohn’s disease, and more, Stacey has spent most of her life under the shadow of sickness.  There is the revolving door of hospital visits, the grinding exhaustion, and the fragility of a body prone to illness.  Yet, Stacey is also a published author and artist who recently released a book called The Fine Art of Waiting, crafted to help others who are in a season of waiting…and, in the throes of COVID-19, isn’t that all of us?  I am happy to welcome Stacey to the show.  Stacey lives in the Lake Tahoe region of California, where she likes to walk with her dog in the Desolation Wilderness.      - Stacey Ballard And so it's really easy to get out in nature. I love kayaking on the lake and but I spend most of my time walking and just enjoying the air and the and the surrounding landscape.   These wide open spaces are a far cry from the bustling Bay area of San Francisco, where she grew up.  Life in the Bay was crowded, chaotic, and the pace of life contributed to her mounting illness.    - Liesel Mertes Would you set the scene for us of what you're growing up years were like? And as you look back, when you first think, oh, yeah, that those were signs of me being unwell.   - Stacey Ballard Absolutely, I was a skinny, nervous, clumsy little kid, and my family pretty much just thought that's the way I was.   - Stacey Ballard And actually I think it might have been coming up to Tahoe, were coming up into the elevation. I started having really bad symptoms, heart racing, vomiting. And so we started going to my doctor in the Bay Area.   - Stacey Ballard I think I was about nine years old and it took some blood tests and things like that. But that's when they discovered that I had hyperthyroid and and started treating me at with my local family physician.   - Liesel Mertes What was that like for you?   - Stacey Ballard Oh, the symptoms of hyperthyroidism, especially in a small child, nervousness, anxiety, sensitivity to emotional situations.   - Stacey Ballard Heart racing, no appetite.   - Stacey Ballard Yeah, so I was I was very nervous all the time, scared of everything, and and so the diagnosis was helpful because the problem did need to be taken care of because it was in a way that I could continue living. It would have caused more physical and mental problems if it wasn't taken care of. But, yeah, it was it was it was scary as a kid to be so emotionally raw all the time.   Stacey was emotionally raw, entering a complex medical system and web of doctors.    - Stacey Ballard that's when I remember one of my first traumas as a person living with chronic illness and living with doctor's appointments and things like that was that I remember being scared of getting my blood drawn at this big hospital.   - Stacey Ballard And I think by that time I might have been 10 or 11 years old. And I remember it took a number of people, probably five adults at least, to hold me down for them to take my blood.   Stacey Ballard And so the diagnosis was a small part of of what happened to me.   - Stacey Ballard It was the trauma of being a kid, going to doctors that really started to affect my life and my mental and emotional state.   Stacey’s family was also reckoning with the diagnosis.  She is the middle child, with an older and a younger sister.  And by that time, her parents had divorced.    - Stacey Ballard Emotionally dealing with a child, going through things like that, I don't know that many parents have the understanding or the coping abilities on how to navigate it.   Her dad was working full time and her mom was working part time…and then there were the drives to appointments and all of the uncertainty.    - Stacey Ballard My parents, I love them dearly, but but nobody teaches you how to deal with a sick child, and so it was very analytical.   - Stacey Ballard There wasn't a lot of there wasn't a lot of like, oh, how is this affecting you emotionally? I think they dealt with the terror in the moments, but then it was more about distracting me onto other things and getting my mind off things.   Stacey’s parents did their best, trying to keep her busy, trying to get the medications in balance.  When she was a preteen, she went through a procedure that purposefully destroyed her thyroid through radiation.    - Stacey Ballard So once you have your thyroid radiated, you drink radioactive iodine to destroy the thyroid or you have surgery to remove part of the thyroid to help with the hyper thyroid. But what that does is it induces hypothyroidism, which then you go from like, you know, bouncing off the walls to wanting to sleep all day.   - Stacey Ballard I'm gaining weight. I mean, I was I was a stick figure. I was skinny. Even though I didn't have an appetite, I could eat anything and not gain weight.   Stacey gained 40 pounds over the course of a month.  She was exhausted and sleeping all the time.  So she began to skip doses of her medication in hopes of losing weight.    - Stacey Ballard But because my child mind. Saw me gaining weight, saw myself getting more tired and my doctors telling me, oh yeah, this is what's working, this is what's right, I thought by doing the opposite, I was helping myself.   - Stacey Ballard Yeah. And because, you know, my mom, you know, worked full time. My dad was only around on the weekends. They didn't know.   There were so many stressors.    - Liesel Mertes How do you think that you were reckoning with that internally as a kid?   - Stacey Ballard I think as a kid, I was just trying to survive. Yeah. Looking back on it now, I. I see where I, I took on the victim role. And listen, I would never tell anybody else you acted like a victim at the time as a kid, I didn't know any better.   - Stacey Ballard I didn't want these diseases. I didn't ask for these diseases. I was doing my best to survive in the situation.   - Stacey Ballard Every every time my mom or dad would take me to a doctor's appointment, I would get the day off school. Mm hmm. After we go to the doctor's appointment, we'd go out for lunch or breakfast or get a treat.   - Stacey Ballard Yeah. And so I got their full attention.   - Stacey Ballard When your parents are working full time and and and and you have, you know, two other siblings and everyone's fighting for attention, I sucked up that time with my parents.   - Stacey Ballard And so I don't know that I thought of, like, why me? Oh, my gosh, poor me. I think I was thinking, oh, my gosh, I get to see my mom or my dad depending on who I was with.   - Stacey Ballard And, oh, we get to go out for for a treat.   - Stacey Ballard And oh, I get the day off school, which, by the way, I hated school. Yeah.   - Stacey Ballard And so and so. And then when, when my next diagnosis came at 13, 14 years old with endometriosis, although it wasn't a diagnosis, it was just symptoms.   Endometriosis is condition that causes pelvic pain and often also contributes to powerful pain during menstruation.  As Stacey began to feel these symptoms, she felt like the little boy who cried wolf.  As a chronic pain sufferer, she had often sounded the proverbial alarm…and now, no one believed her.    - Stacey Ballard I then got my period and immediately started having symptoms. Nobody believed me.   - Stacey Ballard Oh, you're it's just your period, period. That's just your period. And so, you know. In the back of my mind,   - Stacey Ballard I'm thinking there are some acute pain and discomfort and pain.   Yes, that was my main symptom of endometriosis. A lot of people have different symptoms, heavy bleeding and things like that. Mine was severe, severe pain. And so I know that as a young teenager, I did go to a couple of doctors and try to find out if this was wrong, immediately told no, this was normal deal with it. And so then for a couple of years, not understanding that there was something wrong, I just dealt with the symptoms which were horrific.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, and I imagine as you say that, that it's its own head trip. Right. Of like am I imagining things? Am I crazy? Should I trust my own body? Should I trust these other people? That, I imagine, in dealing with just the physical pain that that sort of mental disequilibrium only compounds that and makes it more challenging.   - Stacey Ballard Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't deny the physical pain.   - Stacey Ballard I would be in pain about three weeks a month if this was going to school as a teenager and also working part time and then as an adult, working full time and tried to go to college.   - Stacey Ballard And so.   - Stacey Ballard The the physical symptoms were unquestionable, so I began to hate my body because I didn't know what else to do, because the medical in industry was saying that's normal.   - Stacey Ballard Right. And I wasn't talking to other girls. I mean, even as a teenager, I had I remember having a few girlfriends in in high school, but I don't remember talking to them about this.   - Stacey Ballard And so I turned my pain towards my own body.   - Liesel Mertes Hmm. Yeah. What did that did that manifest itself in physical expressions or mostly a mental orientation? Tell me more about what that looked like.   - Stacey Ballard Mostly mental. I was very depressed, my thyroid.   - Stacey Ballard I talked to a lot of people about thyroid issues because what a doctor says is a normal level might not necessarily be a normal level for you.   - Stacey Ballard And so as far as like a 16 year old, you know, I'm dealing with three weeks out of the month of being in pain, my thyroid levels supposedly being at normal levels.   - Stacey Ballard And I am sleeping 12 hours a day or at night, you know, and so I'm depressed.   - Stacey Ballard I'm isolating myself.   - Stacey Ballard I did have art in my life, thank goodness I was a photography student in high school at the time, and so I think I would spend a lot of time distracting myself. But it is really hard to distract yourself when you're in that much physical pain.   - Stacey Ballard And so it was just depression. And then I started also having an anxiety disorder.   - Stacey Ballard Yeah. You know, and and I do deal with mental illness, depression, panic disorder. And it took me a long time to not blame myself for it and realize it's a brain chemistry thing. It is not a it's not a lack of drive or a lack of personality. It's it's the chemical factory in my brain that I have no control over. And that was that took me a long, long time to accept, right?   - Liesel Mertes What were some of those those messages of questioning whether it was just a problem with you or just loathing towards your body?   - Liesel Mertes Were those being expressed from external people at all, like, can you look back and think, man, people just they said really, you know, casual or purposefully hurtful things that just lingered with me?   - Stacey Ballard Yeah, I think a lot of people like me who look normal on the outside, we call it invisible illness.   - Stacey Ballard People did not believe me, people did not believe me. And my family didn't believe me. My friends didn't believe me. My boyfriend I had a high school boyfriend for like four years. He didn't believe me.   - Stacey Ballard And, you know, yeah, it is it is tough, especially when you look normal on the outside. And even if people see me curled up in pain crying on the floor, they can't understand that it's happening from the inside because they don't see anything physically hurting me, right?   - Liesel Mertes Well, and just, you know, as this is also for the benefit of listeners to do better in these interactions, I want to drill down a little bit. What did that not believing sound like from your family members or the boyfriend or the community?   - Stacey Ballard Well, you look beautiful. Well, I saw you at the amusement park yesterday, you looked fine then, gosh, you look like you were having fun. Well, gosh, what else do they say?   - Stacey Ballard Let's see. You know, I was I was working full time and also going when I when I left high school, I was working and then commuting into San Francisco to go to the Academy of Art and and.   - Stacey Ballard Because I had to I didn't have any other choice because in my family, you pull yourself up from your bootstraps, you have goals you need to meet because you have to survive this life, you know, and you have to have income. And so, you know, it was just it doesn't matter how you feel. Keep moving forward. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, man, I, I resonate.   - Liesel Mertes Well, you and I both can translate some of those messages and have deeply received them. So I hear that because as you think about that, was I   - Liesel Mertes Was there like a breakthrough moment or experience where you can remember thinking, like I just know, like I have to rest. And that is actually more healthy for me right now, like where you were really consciously acting against some of that programming and messaging that like you just got to keep on pushing?   - Stacey Ballard I don't want to start crying, but, yeah, absolutely, I was I think I was twenty two by that time I had not been I had just barely been diagnosed with endometriosis.   Stacey Ballard That took me 10 years. I had not yet been diagnosed with Crohn's, even though I was living with symptoms. And by that time I was also unknowingly living with a rare autoimmune liver disease. And I met my now ex-husband, but his name is Gary and we met through a friend and he changed my life. Yeah. Yeah. He was the exact opposite of everything I had been taught.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, tell me more about that life change and what what he brought to the table that was really important for you in that season.   - Stacey Ballard So my family, I love them very. Yeah, very driven. My family, we volunteer. We we help other people.   - Stacey Ballard We do our own stuff. I met Gary through a friend.   - Stacey Ballard I am an old Deadhead that says a lot to people who know what that means. Gary.   - Stacey Ballard We started dating and there was no drama in our relationship my whole life, I had spent becoming what other people needed me to be to make them happy.   - Stacey Ballard I never knew what I wanted because I didn't there wasn't space for that in my life up till then, I was kind of a loner.   - Stacey Ballard And so when I when I'd meet somebody who'd want to be friends with me, I'd be like, OK, you know, what do you like? OK, I like that too kind of thing.   - Stacey Ballard And and and until I met Gary and got in that relationship, I had never known or looked at what I wanted.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and he was able to open up some of those questions, what did you discover about yourself in your 20s?   - Stacey Ballard Well, unfortunately, three months after we started dating, I ended up in the hospital going under emergency surgery.   - Stacey Ballard So I didn't have a lot of time to find out very much.   - Stacey Ballard But what I did find was a soft place to fall. He he didn't necessarily ask me questions, but he said, look, I don't need to be fixed.   - Stacey Ballard There's no situation around you that needs to be fixed, you need to figure out what you want to do with your life, and that was both wonderful.   - Stacey Ballard And hard, yeah. To be left in that space of like, oh, wait, who am I now? And it wasn't until I was like twenty two that I had had that space to find that out and then Boom immediately went into surgery.   We will come back to that near-death experience in just a moment.  But I’d like to take a second to thank our sponsors.  Our first sponsor is FullStack PEO.  I am an entrepreneur and a small business owner.  And I know the annual hassle of shopping around for a health insurance plan.  Hours lost trying to navigate different options.  This is where FulLStasck PEO comes in.  They manage benefits for entrepreneurs and small-business owners, taking away the headache and providing great benefits for your people so that you can focus on growing your business.    We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  It is hard to know what to do or say when someone is going through something hard (you already realize this, podcast listener) and sometimes, you need some extra help.  At Handle with Care Consulting, I offer targeted workshops, interactive keynotes, learning cohorts, and personal coaching options, empowering you to show care when it matters most.    Alright, bask to our story.  Stacey has just met Gary a few months earlier.  Before we hear about Stacey’s hospitalization in her early 20s, it is helpful to hear about another story.      - Stacey Ballard I, I don't know why I forget about my near-death experience, because that was the thing that changed my life first.   MUSIC UNDER THIS SECTION PLEASE, PERHAPS EMPHASIZING SOME OF THE ROCK/DRAMA   Stacey and her sister went to a Skid Row and Bon Jovi concert in Sacramento.    - Stacey Ballard I was like 18 or 19 years old, it was probably 90 or 100 degrees in Sacramento, and I had been illegally drinking in the parking lot and was pretty hammered by the time we went in to to get our our selves situated in front of the stage so we could be at the first part of the stage for the concert.   They were exhausted, hammered.  It was hot and the concert began.  Immediately, people began pressing towards the front.  It’s heavy rock music, and Stacey braces herself against the stage.    - Stacey Ballard And there's a lady next to me who's really, really drunk and she starts collapsing. And I know that if she collapses, she's going to be trampled.   Stacey struggles, with a few others, to hold her up.  And then, a man comes pressing through the crowd.    - Stacey Ballard I'm only five foot one, so he may have been like six two starts coming through the crowd, punching people out in the face with his fists.   He punches the lady she’s holding and, finally, security drags the woman away.   And by that time, I am drenched in sweat and I put my hand back on the barrier to steady myself again, and there's a girl in front of me and she rips my hands off the barrier.   - Stacey Ballard And at that point I start falling and I realize that I'm going to be trampled to death. And I have the classic near-death experience.   - Stacey Ballard I went into the light.   She experiences a sensation of unconditional love, of seeing her life in review, experiencing her actions through the eyes of others.  This is the end.   - Stacey Ballard And then all of a sudden I was back in the concerts and somebody was pulling me out of the crowd.   The experience causes her to delve into different religions, meditation, metaphysics for the next year or two.  Exploring the deeper meaning in the life she has been given.  She meets Gary and, a few months later is on a women’s spirituality trip when she starts to feel awful.  Her chiropractor recognizes signs of jaundice and sends her directly to the emergency room.    - Stacey Ballard I was completely neon yellow. I think I was twenty two years old.   She arrives at one hospital and has to leave because of insurance issues.  Next, to the county hospital. It is Thursday before the 4th of July weekend.    - Stacey Ballard I am so thankful for Highland Hospital. They saved my life.   - Stacey Ballard And so I was literally freaking out in the hospital because this is the first time I had ever been hospitalized. And they had me all hooked up on tubes and they said this was Thursday and they said, we're going to wait till Monday and we're going to do surgery on Monday.   - Stacey Ballard At this point, I had a tube down my throat because the bile in my stomach, I think, was causing problems. And so they were trying to drain fluid and stuff out of my stomach and having a tube down your throat. Is so traumatizing,   - Stacey Ballard I cannot even tell you I. I can't the people that are on ventilators right now, Jakovčić. And the people that are out there wearing masks, they just don't understand the trauma that all these covid patients are going through.   - Stacey Ballard I wasn't even on a ventilator at this point. I just had a N.G. tube down my throat.   - Stacey Ballard And and I begged the doctors at Highland Hospital, please don't make me wait four more days. I can't do this. I can't do this.   - Stacey Ballard Please don't make me wait four more days. I had doctors and nurses volunteer to skip their holiday weekends to come in on Friday and perform my surgery so I didn't have to suffer for more days.   - Stacey Ballard So I've seen the good and bad of doctors for sure, and so they took me into surgery on Friday halfway through surgery, things went really bad. I was under anesthesia. They pulled me out.   - Stacey Ballard My mom, they pulled me out into this room. My mom was standing on one side of me. Gary was standing on the other side of my surgery bed. And they showed an X-ray image up on the light board and they said, see this spot on her liver right here. If it's cancer, she'll have a year to live. If it's not cancer, she has a rare disease.   Ultimately, it was the rare disease, not cancer, and in the course of surgery, there was a breakdown where bile started leaking into her abdomen.    - Stacey Ballard which then started my almost 20 year journey of being hospitalized or having the surgery. Every year. On or around 4th of July for the next 15 years. Hmm. Because I believe when I was partially under anesthesia and the doctor says she might only have a year to live, I think my subconscious. Did something, and every year for the next 15 years, I'd be in the hospital or undergoing surgery on or around 4th of July, huh?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I think there are so many things that, like, science doesn't doesn't yet have language for about how our bodies keep the score and remember and hold things in our subconscious in ways that are profound like that. Absolutely.   In the course of these hospitalizations, Stacey is admitted and has to be put on a ventilator.  This was one of the traumatic experiences that still causes her PTSD.  - Stacey Ballard They use something called a cuff when they are weaning you off a ventilator to get you to start helping you to breathe on your own, regain your strength. But I had a big note up on my board saying, you know, don't put her on the cuff in the mornings because that's where the anxiety is at its worst.   But one morning, a nurse comes in on her rounds and wants to put Stacey on a cuff.  Her mom, who was there, objects, directing the nurse to the note.  Stacey, of course, can’t talk   - Stacey Ballard And this person did not have time to listen. And so she pulled me off my ventilator. She put the cuff on me, and I started banging on the the hospital table in front of me. And I started going into full blown panic attack like I was drowning because I couldn't breathe.   - Stacey Ballard And she stood there and watched me gasping for breath for a number of minutes.   - Stacey Ballard My mom froze, she she was in such terror at what was happening, she did not know what to do.   - Stacey Ballard And I think eventually she ran out of the room and got somebody. But it went on for a number of minutes until I was put back on the ventilator.   - Stacey Ballard And this is with me to this day when I wear a mask outside, it brings it up.   - Stacey Ballard And so I understand when people say they don't want to wear a mask outside and it's bothersome. And guess what? It bothers me, too. But I wear it because I do not survive getting COVID, so. Well, I guess what I was going to say is that a lot of people who live with chronic illness also deal with trauma that has happened to them if they have spent any time in hospitals or or long term care or dealt with doctors.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes So in the midst of all of these ups and downs and, you know, the regularity, what what are you doing or learning for yourself in order to maintain any semblance of equilibrium? Like what? What is becoming important for you to just be living each day?   - Stacey Ballard One of the many things that is a continuing story through this is creativity.   - Stacey Ballard As a photographer in high school and I've also been a potter and now I do mixed media, I've always done some sort of art and I'm literally talking coloring books and crayons. Tinkerbell, Mickey Mouse, it didn't matter. I was doing something because for some reason, being creative in whatever way I could help me.   - Stacey Ballard And now I understand because there are studies out that prove why being creative and doing art helps, you know, lower cortisol levels helps reduce pain and stress.   - Stacey Ballard But back then, intuitively. I just it just helped and I was also at the same time learning about meditation and learning about alternative medicine and different ways to treat myself.   - Stacey Ballard And finally, at about 23 or 24, winding up on my therapist’s floor in a fetal position, being diagnosed with panic disorders and depression and being put on appropriate medication was a huge help.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. Yes. I think this you you talked a little bit about art and its importance in your story. That's something that you have segued into some of your professional involvements and a recent book that you have published. Tell me about what you have created for others out of your own experience.   - Stacey Ballard Thank you. Yes, my book is The Fine Art of Waiting Wellness through Creativity, and because I've lived most of my life with health issues, I've used art to help in my own healing.   - Stacey Ballard And I've created this book to help people decrease stress, change your relationship with illness and pain, and transform it into one of possibility and hope.   - Stacey Ballard It is, it's challenging right now for everybody. Everyone has different stress and everyone has different stories.   - Stacey Ballard Whether you live with addiction or the stress of of a health issue, we need to find ways creatively to deal with the stresses that come with life. Even more so right now. And that's why I created this book, is because art has been so helpful to me.   - Stacey Ballard And over the years, I created these little projects like My Monster, which is a project that you actually are drawing a monster, which at times have been my disease or my stress of the week.   - Stacey Ballard And then I tear it up or I stomp on it or I burn it and it gives me a feeling of sense of control. And so I've tried to put some of those projects in my book.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and you showed me some of the pages. It looks like there's a wide diversity of types of projects and ways of engaging. And I resonate like that, that the physical expression, sometimes there's so much that is going on within our heads or within our bodies. And to be able to, like, externalize some of those things is really powerful.   - Liesel Mertes Yes, I love that your book does that and you really want to make it accessible to all kinds of people. Tell me about the buy one. Give one that you're doing also with this book.   - Stacey Ballard Absolutely. So there's a couple different versions. I specifically wanted to have a spiral bound version because I know being in the hospital, even just coloring and coloring books, is hard to hold down one side of the page and color on the other when you have IVs on both arms and things like that. So one of my books specifically is a spiral bound version and that one is twenty one ninety five.   - Stacey Ballard It has a color, it has a sample page in color, so you can look at it and get some ideas. I do have a version on Amazon that's not spiral bound and it's nineteen ninety five.   - Stacey Ballard But for any book that is purchased I will give one to somebody who's living with chronic illness who can benefit from having a book.   - Stacey Ballard There is a section on my website where you can nominate yourself or somebody else for a free copy because I've lived with chronic illness most of my life and have lived with disability as well. I've been low income and so I may not have been able to afford this book when I needed it. And so for anybody who can't afford it, come to my website, nominate yourself. Or if you know somebody who needs a book, please go to my website and we'll give that information and nominate them for a book.   - Stacey Ballard I will be happy to send one to them.   - Liesel Mertes I love that I'm struck, even as you say, that, you know, like for most of my life, I've been low income and this is something that I like to ask about any range of disruption.   - Liesel Mertes But that is perhaps, you know, that statement is a stepping stone into the question of   - Liesel Mertes what are some of the things that you feel like people who have never dealt with chronic illness, they just don't understand about what it's like to live with chronic illness? What are some of the things that would be helpful for you to give voice to?   - Stacey Ballard I think the most important thing is that 40 percent of Americans live with at least one chronic illness, 40 percent of Americans.   - Stacey Ballard So we all know somebody who lives with chronic illness.   - Stacey Ballard And so we we know that those people are out there working right now, just like I had to work, whether I felt good or bad. So we just need to be nice to each other even.   - Stacey Ballard You know, we need to understand that we're all going through something, whether it's chronic illness, whether it's addiction, whether you're in an abusive relationship.   - Stacey Ballard We are all we all have our own story of stress and what is causing issues in our life. I just wish we could be nicer to each other, more understanding.   - Stacey Ballard And and and for me, as far as seeing people out there not wearing masks, I just keep saying 40 percent of Americans live with chronic illness and a lot of them are out there working because we have to we have to work because we have to pay bills and we don't have a choice because a lot of us also have to be on medications that we cannot live without.   - Stacey Ballard And, yeah, it's it's it's a desperate situation. And that's why I'm also trying to get politically involved with what's going on as well.   - Liesel Mertes Does it does it make you but I'm putting perhaps my emotions into it. I was going to say, does it make you really angry to see people who are not wearing masks? But maybe anger is not your go to what you feel when you see people who are not wearing masks?   - Stacey Ballard It's heartbreaking. And it does make me angry. I was in CVS picking up a prescription and I haven't been to a store in months because I can't after my transplant, when I almost didn't survive, I was on a ventilator for three months and I have lung damage due to that and also due to a doctor's. Mishandling of another treatment I had I also have lung damage from that, but I looked normal and that's the problem is that we don't we don't wear our stories on our faces.   - Stacey Ballard And so we can't see how we're hurting people. And I think people are just being selfish. Wearing a mask is easy. Doctors do it all the time. Nurses do it all the time. And I worry about the doctors and the nurses that we're putting in danger, too, because they're load of patients is is continuing. And the stress of that is is not helping as well. And I worry about our our people working in grocery stores and banks and the places that have to be open.   - Stacey Ballard I live in a tourist town. I live in Lake Tahoe, California.   - Stacey Ballard We are busier than we would be on a normal holiday weekend. And we have people up here not wearing masks traveling up here from the Bay Area. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say, I just say to the people who are living with chronic illness, take care of yourselves because nobody else is going to do it for you.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hate that sense of. Of isolation, but there's there's a truth to it, you know, we we would like to we would like to think that we had more of a sense of community of care around those that needed it. But.   - Liesel Mertes Well, thank God for you, though. People caring it is exceptional. Yes. Because and it's and it's worthy of being called out and praised because there is there's so much of that that has frayed around the edges in our social discourse and expressions.   - Stacey Ballard And that's what's so important about what you're doing, is that you're creating this community of understanding with your podcast and and listening to your other podcasts.   - Stacey Ballard No, I don't share the same stories as your other interviews or listeners, but what understanding I gain from listening to their stories.   - Stacey Ballard And so by by having this podcast, you you are you're destroying the isolation, which I love.   - Liesel Mertes Well, thank you. I that is definitely part of my aim. And man, I get to I get to receive some really important reflective stories. So I'm I'm always thankful to be able to help hold them. So thank you.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck that there's the there's the the toxic like don't do these things.   - Liesel Mertes What are things that would be helpful if somebody is listening and they go, wow, yeah. I do know that person who walks with a chronic illness and maybe they're even thinking to themselves, oh my gosh, I've done some of the stupid things I've said, like, well, you look fine, you know, but and they want to do differently what is meaningful to you?   - Liesel Mertes What are like good ways that people have supported you, that you think, man, that was so good.   - Stacey Ballard What a great question. First, if you ask me, is there anything you could do to help me, I'm going to say, no, I'm OK. Mm hmm. But if you bring me over a casserole, I will love you forever. And when I'm feeling better, if you need me to change tires on your car, I will do that for you.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I'm just showing up. Showing up.   - Stacey Ballard If the person doesn't have an advocate, if the person doesn't have someone to go to doctor's appointments with them, I think that's one of the most important things that I tell people who have friends or even people living with chronic illness who go to doctors appointments by themselves.   - Stacey Ballard Don't you are not in the state to hear everything you need to hear and you need to be prepared.   - Stacey Ballard Ask a friend or a family member who you trust, who you can feel comfortable with to go with. You have a list of questions you want answered, but have that support with you. So if you know somebody who lives with chronic illness, ask them, do you need somebody to go to your appointments with you? If they go, oh no, don't worry about it, go away.   - Stacey Ballard You know, can I go and take notes for you or, you know, do you need me to drive you to get your blood drawn?   - Stacey Ballard A lot of us who live with chronic illness feel like a burden not only financially because we struggle so much with our income, but emotionally and mentally because I am not going to get better.   - Stacey Ballard This is my life, and that's OK. Healing doesn't always mean you survive.   - Stacey Ballard But it means you can walk the path with as much. Of an open heart as possible, and and so if you have friends living with chronic illness, just ask tell me more.   - Stacey Ballard Tell me more.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, that's a that's a good thing to take way of thinking if if someone if somebody already experiences themselves as a perceived burden, you know, what am I doing to reinforce that or alleviate that?   - Liesel Mertes You've said this kind of throughout, but if there's someone who is listening, who they are, you know, they're walking a journey with life long chronic illness, what words would you offer to them?   - Stacey Ballard Find support. I'm sorry you're not alone.   Stacey Ballard It's hard, not everyone understands.   - Stacey Ballard I don't know if I can mention this and you're welcome to edit it out, but   - Stacey Ballard I have found a wonderful support group for people living with chronic illness called Beyond My Battle.   - Stacey Ballard And actually, they also have support groups for your caretakers, which would have been a huge resource for me and my ex-husband as we were going through this, if he had more support as a caretaker.   - Stacey Ballard So please reach out for support. If you don't find the right support, it doesn't mean to you it could mean it's them. I've been in some pretty negative support groups that I was like, oh, no, I am not staying with this one.   - Stacey Ballard So keep searching because there are people out there like me who we have pity parties for ourselves.   - Stacey Ballard And I have really bad days where I can't get out of bed, but I am going to suck every beautiful piece of life out of this life that I can. And I, I invite anybody who wants to do that to join me.   - Stacey Ballard And, you know, well, that's that's where art helps me.   - Stacey Ballard And, you know, I can take that and turn it into a really dark piece and I have and because it gets it out of my head and gives me some sense of control over it because I can't, I can't, I can't do anything with it because it's in the past.   - Stacey Ballard I can't manipulate it any more because it's already been experienced.   - Stacey Ballard But I can manipulate the feelings I have from it that at times get get, you know, hard   - Liesel Mertes That's powerful, that I mean, it's not revolutionary. But even just the way you said it, like something has happened to you, it exists as it.   - Liesel Mertes But even that like the physical act of being able to render and manipulate it in a certain way. Yeah. Has its own power in experiencing it.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Stacey As a person living with chronic pain, Stacey could often experience herself as a burden:a financial burden, a logistical burden:  someone who would not get better.  My first-takeaway is just a question:  If you know someone that is living with chronic pain, are you subtly or explicitly reinforcing those messages?  Perhaps the messages are subtle.  Do you sigh loudly when they express bodily pain?  Roll your eyes?  Or do you give positive messages:  you are important, you are more than your pain, you have a place here.  Offer to come along to doctor’s appointments, to take notes, to drive.The flow of information can be overwhelming, and company is often appreciated. If you are living with chronic pain, finding a support group can be really meaningful.Perhaps that is locally or through the Internet.  Support groups can also be helpful to care providers as they shoulder a particular burden.  And, as Stacey noted, not all groups are created equal.  If the group isn’t working for you, don’t be afraid to move on and seek out another support group.  And this is a last, bonus take-away.If you don’t know what to say, “Tell me more,” is a great prompt.  Stacey noted the importance of this phrase.  You might have noticed that I unconsciously did this earlier in the interview.  I don’t know a lot about chronic pain…which meant that I didn’t really even know what to ask.  However, by just opening myself up to her story with an open-ended question, I learned a lot.    OUTRO   Link to Stacey’s Blog and Work:  https://fineartofwaiting.com    

- Dustin Kaehr And I think there are some people that are so scared of dying that they never truly live. And so so I think if we can help people understand how to truly live. Because once you get that. Once I have that, I'm way more understanding.   INTRO Dustin Kaehr is many things.  He is a leadership and business coach.  He is a trainer and speaker and author and entrepreneur.  And he is all of these things while living with a terminal disease, HATTR, that has no cure.  HATTR is genetic, passed through his family line.  What is it like to live with this uncertainty?  To love and to raise children under this spectre?  How to let them know about his condition?    Dustin shares about his journey towards meaning, his book, and his purpose in today’s episode.  But Dustin is more than just his diagnosis.  And I want to introduce you to him.  Dustin married his high school sweetheart.    - Dustin Kaehr You know, we were we started dating my see you. We went to prom together my junior year of high school. She was a year older than I was. We went together. We went to prom my junior year. And then we dated, dated all through the rest of my high school and then through through college.   They went to different schools here in Indiana where they were both college athletes.  She playes volleyball and he played golf.    - Dustin Kaehr She graduated from Purdue on Sunday. And then we got married the following Saturday back in nineteen ninety nine. It was a crazy I don't know that I would recommend that to anybody ever. But you know, we were young and in love and probably dumb, so it all sort of worked out well.   They have four boys together and Dustin enjoys golfing and camping with the boys.    - Liesel Mertes One of the things that we want to talk about today is something that happened a little bit later on in your family life. You set the stage for us. Right about when your first son was being born.   - Liesel Mertes Where were you in life when you got news of your diagnosis?   - Dustin Kaehr Yes. So it was May 2003. And it was my my first son, Evan, was born May 16th. And it was right around that time that that I had gotten an email back confirming a diagnosis that that I was was I probably had instinctively known was coming just because of my history with with the disease.   - Dustin Kaehr And we'll talk about that here in a second. But a diagnosis, confirmation from from IU Med Center and some bloodwork I'd send down. They confirmed that I did, in fact, have the same rare genetic disease that that my dad had and that my grandfather had and that came into our family through my great grandmother.   - Dustin Kaehr And it was it's sort of it's one of those diseases that if the parent has it, the child has a 50 50. It's it's a genetic flip of a coin. And if the parent doesn't have it, then then you don't.   - Dustin Kaehr So at 26, I found out I had have that disease in a disease that has really no cure and early onset. And knowing that, you know, if I look at my family history, my grandfather passed away at 63.   Dustin Kaehr He had a brother die at 64. He had another brother die at 54. My uncle passed away at fifty eight. My dad passed away at 53. So no cure. And so tell us. Good.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit. Tell us a little bit about each HATTR.   - Dustin Kaehr Hereditary amyloidosis trans-thyretin. So, trans-thyretin TTR. It's a protein in our bodies. Your body has it. Everybody's body has it. The majority of it is produced in the liver and it's a it's a protein that's that's a carrier protein. So it's designed to carry thyroxine and retinol. That's the trans thigh written. So it's a it's a protein that bonds together and it carries those chemicals through through your body. Well my TTR protein mis-folds, because of a of a of a defect in my in my DNA, then we know exactly where it is genetically.   - Dustin Kaehr So that protein misfold. So when it misfolds then all those misfolds clump together and then they start to deposit themselves in my body in different places and depending on the strain of this rare disease. And so it is a rare disease. So we talk rare disease. We're talking probably less than fifty thousand people in the world, less than three thousand people in the United States.   - Dustin Kaehr And then it starts to deposit that that protein that amylase protein starts to deposit itself in different places throughout the body and depending on the strain, could determine what parts of the body it attacks and how it progresses.   - Dustin Kaehr But for us, it attacks our peripheral nerve system. So that means that the nerves in our hands and our my feet.   - Dustin Kaehr So my hands are usually always tingling at some level of numbness. My feet as well, though not thankfully, not yet quite as bad. My grandfather lost the ability to walk as he got to the end of his life because of the because of the nerve damage. And then eventually,   - Dustin Kaehr What kills you from the disease is eventually it starts to attack places like your heart. And so you think about your heart being a muscle, the beats, but it's got a lot of nerves in it.   - Dustin Kaehr Well, that protein starts to build up on those nerves and that heart muscle starts to become enlarged. And so you die of of congestive heart failure in an enlarged heart. Like my dad's heart was almost twice the normal size when he passed away. And my grandfather's was over three times as large because of the AMA. So.   - Liesel Mertes So is this something as a child, you were growing up and you were aware of this sort of potential diagnosis that hovered over you?   - Dustin Kaehr For sure. Yeah. I mean, one of the leading research facilities in the world for this disease is I you met.   - Dustin Kaehr And so I remember being five and six years old and having doctors and nurses come to family reunions and collect blood samples as they were trying to find cures and in treatment options for this disease, so I you know, I had been around it my my entire. Been around it my entire life, my grandfather passed away in September of the year. I had went off to college in 1995. And I had already at that point his his two brothers had passed away.   - Dustin Kaehr I knew my dad had the disease, you know, by the time I was in middle school.   - Dustin Kaehr And again, we don't even necessarily know what it was called. But you knew we had the same thing Grandpa had. I mean, you look the same.   - Dustin Kaehr His hands were the same. You could tell his hands bothered him. My dad was a truck driver his entire life. So, you know, his hands bothered him anyways. But live growing, you know, I can tell you, there are times now we're just living with the disease now, I think.   - Dustin Kaehr And my dad, I'd be in so much pain because I know I'm in and then I know what he was was going through. So. So, yeah.   - Dustin Kaehr So when I, you know, say at twenty six I received a diagnosis that I'd probably. Thought was coming. I had always sort of made the assumption my dad and I are we look alike. We were built like some of the like there or a lot of same characteristics. So I always just sort of in my head always thought, yeah, I have I have employed.   - Liesel Mertes So this this was something that was part of just who you were growing up. This awareness, it sounds like. But I'm I'm struck that this is really particular thing for a child. And then a teenager and an adolescent to grow up with this awareness of...how is that framed for you in a way that didn't wreck you or, you know, kind of spin you off?   - Liesel Mertes What were things that people were communicating to you or you were doing to ground yourself?   - Dustin Kaehr You know, it's funny. And I think especially and when you talk about rare diseases where there's there's not a lot of there's no cure and all the treatments are simply to take care of, you know, the symptoms.   - Dustin Kaehr Our family in our extended family. They didn't talk about it a lot and they still don't. I mean, it's a conversation I'm trying to have more and more of with people, as there actually are some. There's no cures.   - Dustin Kaehr There's some treatment options that are that are just within the last 18, 24 months or starting to come to the market. But it was just something that we never that we never talked about.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, we would sort of deal with the health issue as it arose in the moment, recognizing, hey, the reason this is happening is because of this other thing.   [- Dustin Kaehr But we're not we don't ever really talk about. We don't really talk about it. I mean, don't ever remember having having a sit down conversation with my mom and dad about amyloid or even what it was, what it was called.   - Dustin Kaehr So it just it wasn't something we talked about. It wasn't. And it's a weird thing, right. Because how do you what kind of conversations do you have? And I think there was there got to be a point where there becomes is fatigue and talking about something where OK, well, let's talk it out. And where does it end? Well, always. Yeah.   - Dustin Kaehr You do write letters and will do well.   - Dustin Kaehr And I'm not a fan to go, there's no hope. But there really, really wasn't. I mean, there wasn't like, OK, well, here you can go to this, go to Mayo Clinic or go to Cleveland or go to San Diego like there's a while. It might not be here, but I mean, that's that's not that's not the case.   - Dustin Kaehr And so faith was always a part of our family as well. And so, you know, I think framing it through, watching people live out their faith through through disease and through complications was probably all the framework that I had.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Dustin Kaehr You know, where it also created some interesting conversations because I mentioned my wife and I were high school sweethearts. She was very familiar with the disease. And so those were all conversations that we had to have even as we were dating and wanting to talk about marriage going, OK. I mean, let's just make sure you know what you're signing up for. Right.   - Dustin Kaehr Right. I didn't know do. I remember I did that.   - Liesel Mertes Did that feel like it's one thing to say now, you know, more than 20 years past that those feel especially freighted and emotional and real. Yeah. Like what? With his conversations.   - Dustin Kaehr Like, yeah, I had no framework at twenty at twenty one. Twenty two. You know, when we were having, when we were having those, I mean you know I was 18, she was 19 when my grandpa died. And by then we'd been together for a couple years. So instantly was already this big elephant in our relationship. Yeah. But as we got closer to thinking about engagement, I remember just going, hey, we just probably need to talk about this.   - Dustin Kaehr Like, I don't know. Listen, I'm going to assume I have. I don't know. But I assume I do. And so I don't know what that means. And I think it's, you know, yeah, it was it was frayed and awkward because I didn't have a good we don't have good words for it. But at the same time, I think, you know, there's there's some of that where that that youth and exuberance and at some level naivete to go.   - Dustin Kaehr No, no. I love you. It's OK. We'll figure that out.   - Dustin Kaehr I can tell you is a more structured conversation. When we found out I had it, when we then said, OK, our first son is born. How many kids do we want to have? Because every with every child, it's a 50 50, it's a 50 50 flip of a coin of whether you're gonna pass that disease down to your child and then subsequently, if they have it, your potential, your grandchildren and perpetuating it through the generations.   - Dustin Kaehr That was a much harder conversation to have.   - Liesel Mertes How did you even begin to I mean, you said a structured conversation. There's the logic and then there's the deep emotion. What were some of the things that were swirling for you as you made your way to now the four boys that you have?   - Dustin Kaehr You know, there was a real rustle with am I doing the responsible thing as a human to continue to have children knowing I have this genetic defect? To Pat to potentially pass it on. So that was that was at the core of the RSL, right? Was was that was that.   - Dustin Kaehr And for me and for Amber, my wife, I mean, it really it came back to. It came back to our faith.   - Dustin Kaehr It came back to you know, we had always said we wanted four kids as we talked about marriage, as we talked about families, we talked about what we wanted in our lives and what we saw God wanted for our lives for was always the number, you know.   - Dustin Kaehr And so we took you know, we just had trust and faith in that. I mean, in the same way, when we had four boys and people go, well, are you going to try for a girl?   - Dustin Kaehr And we're like, you know, it was never about trying for a girl. It was always about what this was. And so we're not going to we weren't gonna try to make it something for the sake of making everyone else feel OK. And I and I'm sure, you know, I never had anyone in my family come right out and tell me this. You know, he really for kids.   - Dustin Kaehr I mean, I've got you know, I know that, you know, we've got my dad's got some cousins and there's there's some that have more than that have. You have four. Have five or have six or maybe even maybe even one that has seven and. And no one's ever talked about it. But you would know, you just know there's probably people maybe either inside or even outside the family that know that. Look at that and go. That seems you're responsible.   - Dustin Kaehr And that's really hard.   - Dustin Kaehr And now you know what's interesting, Liesel, is you're to spot your spot with technology where if you were if you were doing in vitro fertilization, you could make that determination whether that embryo had HATTR or not before you went ahead and implanted it. Do you do that or not? Like that opens this whole ethical this whole ethical conversation.   - Dustin Kaehr Right, about am I going to play God right. And I think that was what I don't know that we put those words to it. When I was twenty one and twenty two. But I think that's the question we were wrestling with. And you know the answer. My wife and I came to it, said, no, we're not. We're going to we're going to live our lives.   - Dustin Kaehr And at deep down, there's always been a hope that technology will catch up with with where we are. And we're right we're right in that spot now.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, and I'm struck you. You have four children and you are now raising these young men in the world. You spoke about your own upbringing and some of the culture of silence that was present. What choices are you making out of that experience in how to talk about this disease with your boys?   - Dustin Kaehr Yeah. So. When my dad passed away, the boys were William, our youngest, was just born. He was not even five weeks old. So we they were newborn to four and six years old. So, they you know, the older ones remember grandpa all. They remember that he had a bad heart.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, one of the things that came out of me living with this disease was a real clarity and focus around who I am and what I'm going to do with my life and the way I'm going to raise my boys.   - Dustin Kaehr So one of the blessings that came out of living with this disease was I wrote a book for my boys called Dear Boys The Letter Every Son Needs From his Father. And it's a letter that I've written in case something were to happen to me. Right. Because everyone knows life is short. But until you experience it in a real, tangible way, it's just sort of this cliché when in reality, none of us are even guaranteed tomorrow. Right. So I wrote this letter for my boys.   - Dustin Kaehr If something were to happen to me, it's ten sentences long and it's actually designed for me and my sons to go through together. And in there I talk about I talk about the disease briefly is sort of this idea that genetics isn't on my side and this is my motivation for doing it.   - Dustin Kaehr So when my boys turned fifteen, we spent a year going through that book together in preparation for their 16th birthday. So the plan was always to talk to them about it.   - Dustin Kaehr By the time they got into their into their teenage years, now, that was assuming my health was going to stay continue to be good. And we wouldn't have to have that conversation. We wouldn't have to have that conversation earlier because of some sort of, you know, health health issue.   - Dustin Kaehr We weren't going to not talk about it, but but again, how do you have. How do you have a conversation about a rare genetic disease with a nine year old and that that they can understand? And so we had made the conscious choice when we when the time comes. When we're gonna take him through the book or something happens, then we're going to we're going to be open and honest, but we're gonna speak it at.   - Dustin Kaehr We don't need to flood them with information. And, you know, for me, I think with with kids, especially in those types of conversations, you want to just unload at all so you can feel better about finally have say, having said it, but you sort of have to learn.   - Dustin Kaehr I don't want to give you any more than you need. And I certainly don't need to answer any more than what the question you're asking is.   - Dustin Kaehr Right. Because that's what happens, right? Someone comes up, mommy, where does babies come from? And next thing you know, they unload. And all they really wanted to know was, you know, something really simple. And you could have stopped seven words in and they would have been fine for six months. But we we talk through our nervousness with that sometimes.   - Dustin Kaehr And so in July of 2018, I had tried a couple of years earlier to get on a trial drug that wasn't approved but was going through trials and didn't get on the trial drug. Well, I got a callback from Northwestern, said, hey, there's another drug that we'd like you to come up and see if you could qualify to get on their expanded access program. All that means is it was really close to coming to market. And so they were opening up, opening up access.   - Dustin Kaehr So I went up and did some testing and found out that I qualified to receive the drug. And so that meant at the end of July, July 30th of 2018, it was a Monday.   - Dustin Kaehr I was going to Northwestern to get my first my first dosage of of this drug.   - Dustin Kaehr And so that that was a trigger. Now, on Sunday or that weekend, we had to sit down and talk with the boys. Because we needed them to know what was going on. And so, you know, at that point, they're 14. Twelve. Ten and eight.   - Dustin Kaehr And so we sit him down at the kitchen table and say, hey, you guys. Some of you don't remember, but you get older. Evan and Joe, you got an immigrant, lot of bad heart.   - Dustin Kaehr You guys know how my hands bother me. And they they've known my hands numb and my hands bother me. It's part of the it's the first symptom. And I'm like, so there's this disease that runs in our family and it's called HATTR. Hereditary amyloidosis trans threaten its HKT are amyloid just for disremember. It is amyloid. And here's what it looks like.   - Dustin Kaehr And thankfully I was able to pull up some pictures and some great videos from educational resources. And you know, I say Grandpa had the disease and so, you know, I have the disease and I'm gonna go get a drug. And I said, I said, so now here's what this means, is it is each one of you. You may have it or you may not. Right. It's, it's a genetic. It's just it's in genetics.   - Dustin Kaehr So my my 10 year old. Owen And looks at me and says, so do I have it. And I just sort of look at him and I go, I don't know buddy, I go we could find out. I mean it it's a simple blood test to find out. I said, but and we don't need to find out. I said, and here's why.   - Dustin Kaehr And this is exactly what I told them, I said, listen, I said, I'm going up and I'm going to get on a drug that we hope is going to slow, maybe even stop this disease completely.   - Dustin Kaehr It's brand new. It's been in development for over 15 years. The technology, the technology they're using for this drug. Won the Nobel Prize in medicine 17 years earlier. That's how long.   - Dustin Kaehr It's just how long it's taken. To come to market, I said, but here's what I do know. I said, here's here's the hope I have. I said, I have a real hope boys for the first time in a long time that I'm not going to die like Grandpa did from this disease. Because of the medicine and the way medicine works. I said, here's what I know for sure. I said, I have full confidence. And by the time any of you would know if you had it or not. Or even have any symptoms because you're at least 15 years from symptoms in your early 30s, the way medicine evolves, there is going to be a pill you're going to take and your life won't be anything like my life or grandpa's life with the disease.   - Dustin Kaehr And that was the conversation and it was maybe a seven minute, seven to 10 minutes and we let it go. And I said, do any of you guys have any questions? No, no. 14 year old was doing whatever in the end. Right. And I cannot get to the other like.   - Dustin Kaehr All right. So who's gonna watch us? Are you guys who's driving me to soccer? Yeah.   - Dustin Kaehr Can we get. Can I still play x box like that's. And so we left it at that. And so now these conversations, they're just sprinkled.   - Dustin Kaehr So I spent last week in Cleveland Clinic for a couple days. What do you want a clinic for? I just got some appointments with some doctors. Oh, for the disease. Yeah. OK.Right. It's it.   - Liesel Mertes It allows you to meet their emotional moment and not exceed it and be responsive to that.   - Dustin Kaehr That's exactly right. That's exactly right. The only difference has been then as my boys got older. So now I have a 16 year old where we harmonize. We went through the book. We would be able to have some deeper conversations just about. About health, about life, about living life on purpose. About having clarity and focus. About why it's so important to know what you were designed to do.   - Dustin Kaehr And to appreciate life. And so, I mean, that's a message I want to share with everybody that I'm certainly going to share with them as they're mature enough. Maybe he wasn't ready for. But he was certainly mature enough and he needed to have.   - Liesel Mertes Well. And those are some of the themes that you bring powerfully into your work as a keynote speaker as well, aren't they?   - Dustin Kaehr Correct. I mean, it. Everything that that I do in in the keynote speaking in the leadership, in the leadership work, that the leadership training and coaching that I do comes out of that place that that I think as individuals. You know, we have to understand who we are at our core, that we live out of our identity. And, you know, knowing that and then knowing what you're chasing every day and then knowing what values matter most to you, when you can do all of that, you start to get real clarity and focus around what you're here for and and how to live.   - Dustin Kaehr And I think that's great to lead your personal lives. I think that's great for leaders in a professional setting in an across the board. So it really has formed. I mean, it really has formed and shaped who I am and what what I do every single day.   - Liesel Mertes And if people are interested in contacting you, hearing more about your book or your work, we're going to include some links and best ways to reach out to you.   - Dustin Kaehr That'll be great. That's awesome. I would I would like to hear.   -  Liesel Mertes And there are links to Dustin’s book and his work in the show notes; check it out.  I want to take a brief moment here to thank our sponsors.  We are sponsored by Fullstack PEO.  Fullstack provides benefits solutions for small businesses and entrepreneurs.  As we move towards open enrollment, let Fullstack manage your benefits so you can focus on growing your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Do you find yourself in sticky situations, wondering what to do or say when people are going through something hard?  At Handle with Care Consulting, I offer workshops, trainings, and coaching, empowering you to come alongside your people with care and compassion when it matters most.   - Liesel Mertes So it sounds like you have done a lot of work professionally and personally and how you live each day. What do hard days look like for you?   - Dustin Kaehr Hard days. Hard days for me. So hard days can come from me seasonally. Right. My dad passed away December 16th. So the holidays are always hard. As I get into as I get into those Hosie anniversary days, right, I get into December.   - Dustin Kaehr And I mean, I just I there are days where I don't feel like getting out of bed because I'm you know, I'm just real super reflective of my dad and the time.   - Dustin Kaehr And, hey, today would've been the last time we talked on the phone and all of those those types of things. I even get, for me super reflective around my birthday, although I don't think about it a lot. But you're not going to be 40. I'm going to be forty four.   - Dustin Kaehr And then there's just some instant math. I always do.   - Dustin Kaehr Well, my dad would have been 64. OK. Right. Well, I'm 44. So now I'm. I'm nine years and I'm nine years from how old my dad was like that. Fifty three. That birthday for me hangs right now over my head because that's how old my dad wasn't. And I don't know, I think there's some normalcy to that. I think if you lose a parent like that, you start going, well, am I gonna outlive my parents in that regard?   - Dustin Kaehr Am I going to be able to live longer than them, especially in this environment? So those days, those mental those days are hard mentally for me when my physical health isn't great.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, I just went to Cleveland Clinic last week.   - Dustin Kaehr I won't be going back again. I've got some tests I need to do. Coming up, those hang on me. Right. And so it's in those when they when they do, I. I do a couple of things. And I've I've I've given myself way more grace and patience as I've gotten older than I used to. Right. This idea that just suck it up, buttercup like not nothing's happening today. So relax. Right. Like that's always was the mindset.   - Dustin Kaehr And in reality, I've just given myself the space to go. I don't feel very good today.   - Dustin Kaehr So, yeah, I work from home and that's OK. And I'm not I'm not ashamed to tell anyone that wants to. If anyone has an issue or problem with that and let's talk about it. So I've been I've probably given myself more grace and space and and then at some level, like, I continue to keep my eyes just on the bigger picture of my life and going, why am I here?   - Dustin Kaehr What am I doing? What am I chasing after? Right. What? Why do I do what I do? Where does that come from? Lean into my faith. Into my family. Lean into my friends.   - Dustin Kaehr And so, yeah, that's that's I don't know that I have more hard days than I used to. Like I said, I probably give myself more space and grace for those days.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, empathy was never a strong attribute of mine. I've had to work really, really hard to develop my sense of level of empathy, not only with other people, but I think with myself,   - Dustin Kaehr Because I think when you're when a person like me that, you know, your you can be hard and you're a you know, I can give you all my all my personality letters and numbers that would all make sense. That type of person. Right.   - Dustin Kaehr But that's not an excuse for not right. Not in my mind.   - Dustin Kaehr I guess my Meyers Briggs on you and get the greatest Myers Briggs, the Enneagram and give you all of that and you'll go, oh, you're that kind of person. Yeah. No, that that's my natural tendency. But that's not an excuse for behavior. I can't go. Well, that's just the way a D is like I'm sorry I said I'm a Doberman Pinscher.   - Dustin Kaehr Like that's I just brought people over. That's right. Right. And I think that's always and that's the fear.   - Dustin Kaehr And those types of things is we we start using anything we can to validate behaviors and feelings. Right. That well. Any interest for anybody?   - Liesel Mertes  I'm struck even, you know, as you thought about your own progression and giving yourself more grace in space. It touches on what is at the core of living life with empathy, which is we actually treat people the way we treat ourselves.   - Liesel Mertes Like there's this overflow. And if we have this uncompromising hard driving, like there's no space for weakness voiced towards other people, it's also deep internal voice because that voice is driving our internal person as well.   - Liesel Mertes And that has its own, like, unrelenting sense of exhaustion. And sometimes we celebrate that we're like, that's so great. You get so much done, but that the total internally is pretty toxic over time, especially when compounded with, like, physical limitations.   - Dustin Kaehr Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, at the core, I am a firm believer that we're all meant for relationships.   - Liesel Mertes What are ways that your community of people have come alongside you in this journey in a way that has really mattered to you?   - Dustin Kaehr Yeah. And, you know, it's funny for for a really long time.   - Dustin Kaehr It wasn't even something that beyond our family, Amber and I would even talk about. With with friends. If they knew my family, they knew my extended family. Then there was then there was some familiar charity and connection and connection with it. My wife and I moved to where we live now about about eight, about eight years ago. So my dad passed away while we were up here.   - Dustin Kaehr So there was there was a little of that. But it wasn't even something that we really that we really had talked about a lot. And mostly because there wasn't any. There wasn't anything immediate. Right. It wasn't like a Dustin's going into the hospital. We need some help here or something. Something like that. So we didn't have any of these immediate gaps that people could step in and fill.   - Dustin Kaehr What I most have appreciated, though, as I've gotten over the last several years, more comfortable just putting words to the story and telling the story are people who were two things are willing to listen. But even more than that, they're willing to ask how you feel and have your hands. Hey, how's the drug you're on? And again, I've started to become more and more public about it. And so I think if you're if you're if you become public with it, that that gives people permission sometimes.   - Dustin Kaehr And I think that's why it's more important that I be a little more public, because I want people to know I want to educate people. I want. I want people to know it's OK to have those kinds of conversations, because those are the kind of conversations that that really matter when we think about life and work and everything else.   - Dustin Kaehr So it's been people who are willing to listen and people who are willing to ask you how you feel them and then be OK with. When I don't give them an answer that they want. Sometimes you ask how someone's doing and they unload on you. And you were like, Oh man, I wish I wouldn't have asked.   - Dustin Kaehr It was just something on the way to the bar. Were you right? They just right.   - Dustin Kaehr The you know, the the standard answer. But, you know, there's been a few. There's been a few.   - Dustin Kaehr I've got a few really close friends that I can send to that I can send a quick text to to go, hey, I'm really struggling with this. And they're like, hey, I got Chhay, we're thinking, hey, we're praying for you? And they'll follow up. And I think that that's to me is really, really important. Right. That's the people you're on with. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm struck that you are, how you're choosing to walk with this disease necessitates its own level of bravery and trailblazing, because it's not that you saw this necessarily. Like, I'm I'm sure you saw some some beautiful aspects of living and dying with this disease modeled for you by a public facing communicating proactively.   - Liesel Mertes  It's not like you're just doing what your dad or your grandfather did. Like you're charting your own course for you, for your son's very purposefully. How did that look? You know, you mentioned days of deciding I need to work from home.   Dustin, at the time of this interview, was working for Lippert Components.  His is now out of on his own as an entrepreneur, but his reflections of working in a larger, corporate setting are still so meaningful.    - Liesel Mertes How did you decide to communicate with your employer about this? And how did that conversation go?   - Dustin Kaehr Tony Gwynn, you know, because I had been I'd been public with sort of, you know, the disease and that type of stuff with people, people around me that I was that I was working with. And again, I had I had leaders who would ask then. Right. He would lean in and go, hey, how are you? How you feeling? How you doing? Or, Hey, I'm going to. I need to take a day because I've got an appointment or or whatever it is.   - Dustin Kaehr And so because they would ask, I would I would feel even more comfortable to to share. And I think as that deepened then it really I would say. It's it's been no big deal. But. But I haven't felt like there's this tension. There's been this this tension there. Right. Yeah. I mean, anytime I've needed to needed to go hey, I happened to be working from home today.   - Dustin Kaehr And again, I've got a role and a job that allows me, you know, maybe some more of that flexibility than if I had to show up to be at a spot every single day.   - Dustin Kaehr But I but I still get the sense of that, that, you know, I've I've had some of that where I can have that conversation go, hey, just not feeling like I need to cancel, I need to cancel this meeting or I'm not real and make it. And so there's that flexibility and right after that. Yeah, right.   - Dustin Kaehr And it's and again, it's a reminder of grace and space. Like it's like there gets to be a point where you continue to miss, miss, miss, miss, miss.   - Dustin Kaehr And now we talk about what disability looks like. And that's a whole separate conversation.   - Dustin Kaehr But I think but I think it's just that idea of giving people giving people space for when they may need it, because you don't you don't necessarily even know what's going on again and again, I, I live mine out publicly because I for education for you know, I want everyone to know why they get up every day and do what they do and so on.   - Dustin Kaehr Because I think, you know, again, life is short. And in reality, you know you know, the dedication in my book is to my dad and says and showing me how to die. You showed me how to live.   - Dustin Kaehr And I think there are some people that are so scared of dying that they never truly live. And so so I think if we can help people understand how to truly live. Because once you get that. Once I have that, I'm way more understanding.   - Dustin Kaehr If someone that works with me says, hey, I've got a kid at home that's sick, I need to take I go, I like you don't have to tell me anymore. Like, I don't need any more X, like, go.   - Dustin Kaehr Right, because I've got that. And so as I and I'm thankfully I'm surrounded by a group of leaders that I get to interact with and that understand that as well. So when I simply tell them, hey, I'm going to be going to be out for a couple days. OK, no problem. Like, move on. We don't need to belabor it. We don't need to note it and put it in your file and and move on.   - Dustin Kaehr And I think that's what a workplace culture that that is driven around wanting to care about people. And making sure that the people matter first. I think that's the kind of environment it creates and I would argue that's kind of environment everybody wants to be in.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Were there seen in that way? Yeah.   [00:46:31.660] - Liesel Mertes You've, you've talked about aspects of ways in which you've been supported. The importance of people asking   - Liesel Mertes what are some of the worst things that you've been met with, things that have just kind of set your teeth on edge or felt really bad that people didn't either purposefully or inadvertently in your community?   - Dustin Kaehr Where I probably get most frustrated just it is because of the clarity I have around trying to live my life and the way I want people to live. I really frustrate when I see people selling themselves short. You know what I mean when you're gone. Mean, like, I wish I could. I wish I could tell you that you're settling. And I know you think this is great, but you're settling because life is so much more than.   - Dustin Kaehr That's probably where at this stage my journey, I find myself more times than not. Like you really. When about that like. Right.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, with my kids, like how we raise our kids. I have a different perspective on what I want for my boys. And so when I see people that get really upset about things related to their fourth grader or their sixth grader, and I go really like, do you think that mattering.   - Dustin Kaehr That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Like, by the way, then what are you teaching your kid? That that that that matters. And that doesn't matter. Like, that's where I find probably find myself getting irked if that's the right word on if it is. But but I'm fired up certainly. Probably more places than not. Hmm.   - Liesel Mertes But any words that you would offer to someone who is, you know, living with a disease that doesn't have a cure or for people who are living with them? Yeah.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, as we as I went through this journey, even in just the last couple of years. Right. So I grew up around this disease, my family here in northern Indiana. We knew it was a rare disease. But I was still you know, we talked about the herd you run with. And while it is a rare disease, what I've been most encouraged about over the last couple of years are the other people I've met that have the disease.   - Dustin Kaehr Who aren't family members right from from around the country. Through through an Android support group, through a Facebook group, through doing some patient advocacy stuff with with people and getting to spend time with other patients and their caregivers. That that is given. That fires me up. That gives. I mean, they just sort of gives life even to me more. So we are now it's you know, we're at the end of February. And the last day in February every year as rare disease day.   - Dustin Kaehr And so my wife and I on. Later this week are going to head out to Boston to be with the company that produces the drug that I'm taking for their rare Disease Day celebrations. We're going to be part of a panel discussion. And so we're going to be. We're gonna get a go out to dinner with other people who are on this journey. And I love that I love Canal because because they've got a point of reference that nobody else in the world has, when we want to have a conversation about something, other people, other people can maybe understand it.   - Dustin Kaehr Right. There's a difference, I think to me there's a real difference between between having empathy. I'm going to put myself in your spot to going. I've been in your spot. All right. Right. Understand having an understanding I think is different than empathy. Empathy is I'm going to try really hard and I'm going to give space and grace. Understanding is now. I've been that. Yeah. My hands wake. I wake up every morning between three and four o'clock because my hands are numb too.   - Dustin Kaehr Right. And so that has been that's what I appreciate the most, is interacting with with those groups. And there was a piece of this for me late last year.   - Dustin Kaehr I was in Dallas, Texas, with a group of them going through some training, and they were all a generation older than me. And a lot of them were sort of first generation and their family found out they had the disease. So the fact that I've known for years and years has been a unique thing.   - Dustin Kaehr But for me, it was it was moving humbling and rewarding.   - Dustin Kaehr As I got to sit with all of them for a couple days at the end of a couple of days, I got to look at them and I said, all of you are old enough to be my dad. You're all in that age group. You're you're 60, 60 to 68, 70 years old, I said. And so you all have kids and some of your kids know they have the disease or some don't. And so some of them would never say this to you.  But some.   - Dustin Kaehr But let me on their behalf, say thank you for doing the work you're doing to fight the disease. Right. I never got to thank my dad for all the times he would go down to IU and sit in a lab for a couple days and give tissue samples to help progressed the disease. Right. I mean,   - Dustin Kaehr we donated his body, my grandpa's body, so they could do organ harvesting so they could use those so they could use what they know of their body to help us. The drug I'm on is a direct result of some of those samples and tissues that my dad and my grandpa gave.   - Dustin Kaehr So to be with another group of people and tell them thank you for fighting this disease and and let's connect. Let's have this conversation. If you're someone who has one of those rare diseases, there is a community. They are you are rare, but you're not alone.   - Dustin Kaehr And I think that to me has maybe been critical, like there's only three thousand people in the country, but there are three thousand people in the country. And I've been fortunate to meet one hundred and some of them already.   Dustin Kaehr Right. And that there that there's probably more than ever ways and venues to connect that weren't available to your father, to your grandfather. Yeah. Not a word. It's a sport. We all know there were no Facebook groups.   - Dustin Kaehr You know, back in back there. And now with technology, we have all of that available to us. Right.   - Liesel Mertes Facebook bringing you more than election news and baby photos. Yeah. Connection that matters.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are a few key takeaways from my conversation with Dustin If you are struggling with a rare or incurable disease, finding community is important.Dustin talked about how meaningful it is to be with people who get it, who are likewise fighting the same disease.  As Dustin said, “You are rare, but you are not alone.”  Whether it is through Facebook groups or communities through your research hospital, finding your people matters.   Having staggered, honest conversations with your children matters.Dustin shared about how he and his wife have navigated these conversations with their boys.  Whether you come to the same conclusions or different ones, keeping lines of communication open is so important, especially with children.  If you are a manager, give people the space that they need at work.Dustin talked about the importance of bosses that checked in with him, that allowed him flexibility when he needed to take time off or work from home.  This sort of open-handed support builds trust and powerfully manifests a supportive culture at work.    OUTRO   Find out more about Dustin and his consulting work at thinkleadlive.com   And you can learn more about his book at www.dearboysbook.com

Wade Brown While there are plenty of opportunities to be angry, we don't want to be angry. We don't. Joshua was a beautiful, beautiful young man. And Joshua is not suicide. Joshua is a 14-year-old who did an adult thing in a moment of weakness and we'll never know why. He's a kid that did an adult thing. He's not suicide. And so, you know, it's important for us to demonstrate to our kids. And I try to do it at work as well. We choose love and grace. We do.   INTRO   This is the second Handle with Care episode where a father talks about the death of his teen by suicide.  If you didn’t get a chance to listen the first conversation, I would encourage you, after listening to this episode, to also listen to our last episode where Jason Seiden talks about his daughter Elle.   My guest today is Wade Brown.  His full name is Edmund Wade Brown the 4th.  His parents were convinced that he was going to be a girl and went to the hospital expecting a Jennifer.  When a little boy arrived, they waited two days before naming him after his father.    Wade is the Vice President of Field Operations for GE, covering the Central United States.    Wade Brown So diagnostic imaging, patient care you've covered has put ventilators and anesthesia machines on the front page. Well. And so, so all of the products that G.E. Healthcare makes and sells into our health care customers, my team supports.   Wade manages a large team and they have been especially busy and vital in the fight against COVID-19.    Wade Brown I've always compared it to my big family. I've led large teams for the better part of 20 years now and there's so many similarities to that.   - Liesel Mertes I could I can only read them. I only have four children, which is more than many, but less than you. And it is like it's like field marshalling. Sometimes it's just the logistics. I totalizing, let alone everybody's like emotional moment and the particular care that they need. And so, I hear you. But I'm sure that I only hear part of what you're lived experience has been like.   - Wade Brown It's I always liken it to controlled chaos. You know, there's somebody ready to break loose at any given moment, and I've got it.   You heard the reference above to a large family.  Wade is the father of nine children.    - Wade Brown So, I have book-end girls. I have.   - Wade Brown Jordan is is 30 and Josephine is nine. And so, seven boys in the middle. And so, we had Jordan and then and then Jacob. They came very quickly in our marriage. And and then Jonathan, our third child. So, we were boom, boom, boom. You know, still, you know, young, married, three kids and the J. Alliteration kicked in. So, we were Jordan and Jonathan. And then. And then, when Cynthia became pregnant for the fourth time, Jared was an eight.   - Wade Brown So we. So we stayed on the J's. And so my kids are infamously known as the J kids.   And Wade is joining us today to talk about his son, Joshua, who took his own life a year and a half ago at the age of 14.  Wade shares about the ripple effects of the loss, how his community came around him, and how he carries Joshua into his life in 2020.    - Wade Brown I've I've got on my board here at home from Ernest, Ernest Hemingway. Right. Hard clear about what hurts. And so listen to these discussions. And I've been on stage in front of hundreds of people multiple times. I've been on Zoom call, you know, Skype and Zoom calls with literally thousands of people. So. It's good to talk about it. It's a story that needs to be shared and talked about. It's just a mission that I'll have the rest of my life in this club area.   - Wade Brown Well, and, you know, kind of the heart of the centerpiece for our chat today is it's Joshua. And so, you know, we've got, you know, Joshua 1:9, you know, be strong and courageous as big as has been and will forever be, you know, an important passage for us and the people around us. And I've even got a I've got an adult kid now that's wearing it on his chest.   For those of you that are not familiar with Joshua 1:9, it is a verse from the Bible where God tells His people to be strong and courageous as they prepare to face a host of challenges and conflict moving into a new land.    Wade also loves the rainbow as a symbol of promise and a reminder to talk to kids about the impact of suicide.  So much so that his wife has banned him.    - Wade Brown I've been banned from Etsy, actually severe. I had to get permission before I can go on Etsy because I just I, I just couldn't get enough stained glass in. We've just got some beautiful stained glass pieces here. And one of them actually commissioned a lady in St. Louis. She's a retired mathematical engineer, just a brilliant, lovely person. And we connected through Etsy and then and they kind of became friends. And so she made a custom piece that I have here at my and my home office.   - Wade Brown And it's just magnificent. It's beautiful. I could I could send you a picture after work.   - Liesel Mertes I would love to see that work. I imagine or touched on this more in our conversation. But. You know, when you have a child die, there's such a profound absence, you know, that there's a there's a spiritual, emotional absence, but there's this very physical void. And to be able to have things in our physical realm that are are literally touchstones, whether that's, you know, something something to be able to look at or touch.   - Liesel Mertes It's is it's I find it to me.   - Liesel Mertes And for many, that physical grounding in the reality of life, they haven't just vanished and become this ethereal, like nothingness like this. There's a person who had weight and space in our family. And so I I hear how that's important. And I'm sure I'm sure the artisans of Etsy are missing you. I have my own rabbit holes with stuff like that.   It is a tumultuous time to be a small business owner or entrepreneur.  The market is full of uncertainty and it feels like the rules of engagement are constantly changing.  One constant is the need for talented people.  And one of the best ways to attract and recruit talent is through an attractive benefits package.  FullStack PEO is here to help.  Let the talented crew at FullStack navigate the complex world of employee benefits so that you can focus on surviving and thriving during COVID-19.   The uncertainty of our current moment is also causing so much stress and overwhelm for your people.  Compassion fatigue is gnawing at the edges, there are health concerns and the stress of young children at home.  Handle with Care Consulting is here to equip your people to give and receive care when it matters most.  Our customized consulting packages empower your team with actionable strategies to bring put empathy to work.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   As Wade and I began our conversation, he reflected on how the loss and tragedy of Joshua has uniquely equipped him to lead his team during the COVID crisis.     - Wade Brown And this has been part of my journey the last year and a half of my life. Liesel is is there for for me personally and with my team that's been with me through the Joshua experience.   - Wade Brown It almost served as a bit of a preparatory experience because the connections that we have, the culture that that I've talked about it and written about it, the culture, family, the culture of caring is real in my space. And and so when COVID turned on and we had to go to, you know, to our daily stand up call first thing every morning, you know, with 100 people on the phone trying to take on the spot decisions because there were so many unknowns.   - Wade Brown I think we were better able to administer our way, especially through those early days where there was so much trepidation because of the connections across our team and my connection personally with the people that I get the privilege leading because of the Joshua experience. Now, would we have done well, having not had that? I'm sure we would have. But it was a it was unique for us there like that. We didn't have to. We have to warm up for it.   - Wade Brown We were already warm, like we were more ready to go. And there was a higher level of trust because of that, because it's not just what I found. The backside of the you know, the health care phenomenon isn't just that you have to go into those places. It's dead. You have to go home and be around your family. So that's actually where most of the fear and concern came from. And so, you know, for us to be able to have, you know, I believe I believe a higher level of trust and caring for each other helped helped us do better and be better and be quicker in our response.   - Wade Brown I believe that. And I've seen other teams perform through this. And so I would say that we we stack pretty well.   - Wade Brown And you know, just how we how we moved through an incredibly an incredibly volatile and it's still volatile still. But, you know, ninety hundred days ago, there were infinitely more questions than there were answers.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, and what would I hear in that? And I want to dig more in a bit into the specificity of it. But the sense that, you know, through your own disruptive life event you had you had led with the particular vulnerability of. Needing care and receiving care from your team and that that lived experience. I mean, there can still be in organizations are given teams or with particular managers.   - Liesel Mertes This sense of a very clear distinction like this is your work life. And this is your home life. And the two do not intersect like you. You just manage your stuff and then you show up and perform.   - Liesel Mertes And the realization for your team and for you of, you know, I'm a holistic person and I'm bringing this really hard thing to work. And I I need and appreciate your support. And I want to give that to you. If you're going through something hard, it seems like it. It set the stage for being able to receive the current context in like a healthier much more giving way.   - Wade Brown Yeah, for sure. There's no doubt about it. I had I listened into your last posted podcast with Fred Brown and.   As a sidenote, the interview with Fred Brown is tremendous.  Fred talks about the challenge of carrying grief and loss as a Black man and CEO.  If you haven’t had a chance to listen, make it the next in your queue.   - Wade Brown Yes. And I heard him mention about, you know, for years being being the caregiver, not the receiver of care and raising, of course, that that that's me for sure. I mean, I'm a I'm a I'm a dad of a big family love. That's my greatest achievement. And it always will be. I've led big teams for two decades and I've been a people leader for most of the 32 years I've been in my career. I'm I'm a coach.   - Wade Brown I'm a caregiver. I don't receive care. And you know it. There were a couple of things that happened through the grieving experience with Joshua that just had a 100 percent transference into into my workspace. And a couple of those things were profound. And one of them was my first opportunity. This was May of last year. So this was within four months of Joshua's death. I had the opportunity go on stage and address the extended services leadership team for each four GE health care here in the United States and Canada.   - Wade Brown So that's, that's my extended work family. So that was five hundred plus people. And and I did that early on in the two and half days we were there. So the two days that followed Liesel were just were transformative for me. And that what I discovered, what came back to me in the 48 hours that after I walked off stage until it was time to get everybody to leave and go home, I had four dozen, you know, up close, some between 40 and 50 people.   - Wade Brown I wasn't counting. I just know that it was four dozen ish. People pulled me aside and tell me their very personal stories. And it wasn't ready for it. Quite frankly, it overwhelming. I found myself back in my room crying a couple of times and calling calling Cynthia going, oh, my gosh, my God. I didn't realize what was what I was what was going to come back to me when I did this. Getting on stage was hard enough.   - Wade Brown But then the stories that came back to me were were deep. They were profound. They were heartbreaking. And. But what I learned from that and what I've talked about is everybody has their Joshua. And I think there were people want to talk and they want to share and they want to feel supported and they want to give support. Just just an incredible experience.   - Wade Brown And with respect to receiving care, it really wasn't until late last year. It was in the fall for sure, before November ish. My family had engaged with Riley Hope and Healing for counseling and support. Are you familiar with Riley?   - Liesel Mertes Yes.   - Wade Brown And so so Mike, Cynthia and the younger kids were in that, and it was with success. And I had just never been inclined to seek that kind of help or support. And so I did. And it was an and it was also with the encouragement of cup of a couple of people that are closest to me at work because they could see it, they could feel for me just the ups and downs.   - Wade Brown And because I had for the you know, for the seven, eight, nine months prior I had carried my family, I had carried my community, the homeschool kids that I had mentioned before, like, we have a tremendous a very large circle of friends and and support.   - Wade Brown And so I was doing all the talking and I was trying to provide that that comfort and their therapeutic support for everyone around me, but none for myself. No, it was incredible. Just that it was it it still to this day, I mean, I have a whiteboard and a notebook, you know, just full of notes and thoughts and and and so where I'm going with that ultimately is what I've tried to do then, especially through COVID. But it started late last year and it's and then I continued it into the new year. And then, of course, COVID gave it a whole kind of change.   - Wade Brown The color of the mosaic is weave. I and my team host mental health, stress, anxiety. We do awareness calls. We bring guest speakers on. And the first thing we did when COVID four started was about managing stress and anxiety at home. It wasn't about were. It was about your personal space. And we had a wonderful doctor come on in. And what happened on the other side of that, Liesel, was was amazing because the distribution list on the Skype broadcast, it went out to, I think, about six hundred people. Then we expanded up to about 850 people. And then when we got the count afterwards, we had like twenty five hundred people on it now.   - Wade Brown But there is a multiplier that comes of that, because I got numerous notes from people that were on that listen to the broadcast and participated in the Q&A that they didn't do it just themselves because everybody's working from home.   - Wade Brown They had brought their high school kids, their college kids, their their partners or spouses. There were families listening to this. So you know that now you're like four to five thousand people. And so but that's it's important for us to put it out there and and have those expressions.   - Wade Brown Everybody has their Joshua. And I think that that's not the case. I think is I don't think it's genuine. I think it's naive. And I actually think it's a bit dangerous for the health of the organization because you're just ignoring your comment before we're all holistic people.   - Wade Brown You can't you can't cleanly segregate work from your home life. You can't. And so and so why would you why would you try and I think in you know, early in my career, I wouldn't have been so open to that.   - Wade Brown But certainly the last 15 years and now with with what's happened with Joshua, I'm all in. I just don't want a complete belief system that has matured and expanded because of this.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and man, absolutely. I resonate with that deeply as it relates to my work of building the capacity for support within teams. And just the like you said, there's there's a cost to ignoring it.   - Liesel Mertes There is is not a zero sum game. There's a cost to the stability of your people. You know, there's only there's only so long that you can hold it all together before it starts coming out in your ability to play well with others or complete tasks or in your physical health. You know that the ties to, you know, unreconciled stress and how it can come out in the winds, the body keeps the score.   - Wade Brown  Yeah, really true.   - Liesel Mertes I, I want to I want to back up just a little bit because, you know, even the statement everyone has their Joshua, tell me a little bit about Joshua. Where does he fall in your birth order? And we'll go from there.   - Wade Brown Yeah, sure. Well, he was just a beautiful young man. So he's number seven. He's my my sixth son. My seventh. My seventh child. And just a beautiful, beautiful young man. If you saw his image on unlink and it just, you know, platinum blond hair, blue eyes, six foot two at 14 years old. So a couple of my kids have been early bloomers. Joshua certainly was more than those, you know, six to at 14 and just absolutely strong as a horse.   - Wade Brown And any head that his hair, when he teased it up, was six five maybe.   - Wade Brown That boy loved his hair.   - Wade Brown But he just just a fantastic kid. We saw I mean, he was in two different youth groups, played on two different basketball teams. Was just, you know, we never know. No trouble at all.   - Wade Brown And, you know, with a family my size and having been a dad for 30 years, I've had a lot of, you know, a lot of conversations with teenagers and in college age kids. And, gosh, even after college, it's still got stuff to talk about. And Joshua just was we just not it wasn't it wasn't like that with him.   - Wade Brown He was just just so good and pure. A great friend. And because of because of his his size at a young age was always girls following him because he was just, you know, bigger, stronger than the other kids that were in his class.   - Wade Brown And so just a beautiful, beautiful young man and. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I love that. Right. Tell me a little bit about the events that led to his death.   - Wade Brown Yeah. So we were so so with respect to, you know, him taking his life, committing suicide, were there were there was nothing. We had no indicators. It done his homework and clean the kitchen. Cynthia was at a book club meeting with some of her other friends. And so he was here with my two younger kids. He had done his homework, cleaned the kitchen, made sure the kids were safe, and then came down into my office and wrote us a note on my whiteboard.   - Wade Brown And then and then he he took his life.   - Wade Brown So I was in Chicago on one business, on the perfect I'm a road warrior. I've traveled most of my 32 years. My family's very accustomed to that. And so I was we were finished with our meeting. We'd gotten back to the hotel after dinner and there were three or four of us sitting, having a glass of wine and and just just talking. And we were just hanging out a bit before before going back to our rooms.   - Wade Brown And I got the 911 text message from from Cynthia. And so I called. She told me the news. I had gone into a back hallway to talk to her. And I came back out and told my colleagues that I had to go. And, of course, they could tell that something was wrong. So I share with them what had happened. And, of course, we all embraced. Cried a bit, and then, of course, they wanted to drive me back to Indianapolis like, no.   - Wade Brown I got this. And so I drove back to Indy, got home in the middle of the night. You know, of course, all my mom was here and all of the, you know, the the emergency response, the first responders, all of that was was done. Joshua wasn't here any longer. And so it was, you know, just sitting here with my, you know, my family just trying to understand, you know, what had happened.   - Wade Brown And and, you know, so it's it's really it's difficult to explain, you know, really. But what I would you know what I've I've tried to the word that just I think. Describes best. What that felt like, it was just the suddenness. It was it just in a in an instant. In an instant. You know, you go from a book, you go to a before and after, like there's a whole line, a line that strong there and it's still in it.   - Wade Brown It's still there. And it's never going to go away. And so it's not moving on from it. It's it's moving on with it, as has has been infamously said. And I I believe that.   - Wade Brown And so, you know, the the if so, then there's and it's kind of the multiple frontiers that you have to manage. It's of course I have a job, I have a team. I support account of me. What's going to happen there?   - Wade Brown I've got a family that I've got. I've got to get through this. What's going to happen there? We've got a community. You know, Josh was was was very well known and and and very much loved by a lot of people. And so, you know, how do you kind of how do you patch that together and and push through? So, you know, it was it's. The suddenness and grief is a nasty announced, a nasty monster.   - Wade Brown You know, it doesn't. It doesn't no place. It certainly has a purpose.   - Liesel Mertes You talk about the unpredictability of grief. Which absolutely I am. I find that so so you're wearing multiple different hats. Your your hat as a spouse, as, you know, a manager, also as a parent. I'm struck that there's something pretty profound about walking with your children through their own grief and their different responses. What was that asking of you? Even even in how it set you up for in November, realizing, oh, I also need counselling?   - Wade Brown Well, it's I think, you know, one of the things that we tried to recognize Cynthia and I get when you're just you're. In the immediacy of the moment is the grief is different for everyone. And and we we wanted to be very, very careful with our kids not to try to superimpose what we were feeling on them and and vice versa. And so especially in the you know, the I would say through much of last year. So it's not it's not the same today.   - Wade Brown Much more so, you know, in that and in our first year, so to speak, because you have so many firsts. You know, Joe Joshua's birthday, you know, those those things you have you kind of kind of step through. We've tried we've tried to with our kids like it's it's OK, it's OK to talk. It's OK to express the Riley open healing counselling and and therapy, especially for my two younger kids, has been extraordinary.   - Wade Brown I will always be indebted to those folks. But really, it's that it's OK to talk about especially having so many boys in my family, not necessarily a boy versus girl thing, because my daughter, my oldest daughter is much like me. She's she tends to be, you know, keep, you know, keep those things inside a bit like I do. So what I tried to do for my family, demonstrably up to and including, you know, seeking some some help myself late last year was to was to put reflections out there and to be vulnerable and to talk about it and to cry.   - Wade Brown And so that they would feel that it was that it was OK. And I've done the same thing at work, too, with respect to grief. And so, you know, we talk about the interlaces between work and home have taken that same approach with the folks that are my immediate senior staff and the people that I'm closest to and that it's OK to talk about it. It's OK to cry. It's OK to recognize when it's there, when it's got you how to see it, and then kind of how to work your way through that grief.   - Wade Brown So there's a bit of a long answer, I hope. I hope that helps that we still we still ongoing with my kids, you know. I guess it's not with the same frequency through much of 2019, but, you know, daily reflections, daily reminders of hope and of grace and of love, so that we just felt that it was very important for my kids to see from me. And Cynthia would agree as well that while there are plenty of opportunities to be angry, we don't want to be angry.   - Wade Brown We don't. Joshua was a beautiful, beautiful young man. And Joshua is not suicide. Joshua is a 14 year old who did an adult thing in a moment of weakness and we'll never know why. He's a kid that did an adult thing. He's not suicide. And so, you know, it's important for us to demonstrate to our kids. And I try to do it at work as well. We choose love and grace. We do. And and to the greatest extent that we can model that and encourage others to see and feel the same thing.   - Wade Brown I think that's a that's a purpose and a mission that I'll have. For the rest of my life, I've got I've got another expression here on my whiteboard and I'm sure this one and messages through the COVID period at work just because of the high level of stress and anxiety. And it says if you're going through hell, keep going. When you're reduced to nothing but soul, you radiate an extraordinary power. And that power is called grace. So let it shine.   - Wade Brown And and I believe that. I believe that. So that was long answer to your question. So there you go. This is that you could talk about for a very long time because you're not a single way to express it.   - Wade Brown You know, it's it's because it it it's it changes over time. And the intensity is never the same. You know, grief is a grief is an incredible an incredible experience. I don't know how else to say.   - Liesel Mertes I am. I love that quote on the whiteboard. I can imagine some people as they think about their own journey with grief. I'm thinking, man, I. I feel completely reduced. And what was revealed was not Grace. It was some pretty ugly stuff. Did you feel. Have you felt those moments as well? I'm utterly reduced and I'm not finding myself as a graceful person right now?   - Wade Brown For sure. Hundred percent. Absolutely. Absolutely. And in my I mentioned Tina before, she's she's incredible. And she has been she's been a life partner for. For Cynthia and I. She she watches me like a hawk. And she can tell if I need a break. If I'm if I am. And distant as she's she's dialed in and she's tuned in to me for sure. And she'll tell Cynthia that those two probably talked to each other more than they talk to me.   - Wade Brown So and I'm lucky and fortunate and blessed to have that.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me tell me a little bit more about that, because it touches on these very important aspects, I think, of self-awareness and self care that in good times can be less on the forefront. What are some of the things that are signposts or signals to you of like, oh, oh, man, I'm struggling, I'm on the brink of being overwhelmed? What are some of the things that give either Tina or you pause?   - Wade Brown Well, you know, Liesel, I have I've said it before.   - Wade Brown I have that I just have the distinct privilege of leading women and men that do extraordinary things within within our health care industry. And my job. Is to make sure that they can do that safely, that they can do that to the best of their ability so that they are productive for themselves, for our company and for the customers that we support. And so I take very, very seriously the fact that the things that I do and say have a direct effect on others and their ability to be happy in their career and take and to provide for their families and actually meditate and pray on that.   - Wade Brown It would not be truthful to say every day. But darn near every day of my life. It's part of my my spiritual journey.   - Wade Brown And I take it very, very seriously.   - Wade Brown And so I do a lot of one on ones. I have a big team and a big kind of stakeholder network that I have to stay in touch with. So I like last week, for example, coming back from our vacation in Charleston. Now, I probably I I had three dozen one on one calls. And so when I on the phone with a director or a senior director or a supervisor or could be a customer, but it's usually, gee folks, I have to be my best.   - Wade Brown They're there. It's almost like an athlete on the field. You know, it's like you. They deserve my very best. And so what I've learned to recognize is that when it's not there, it's just not there. And and so what Tina and I talk about and what she helps me keep a pulse on is if I'm just down and I'm not going to be able to give that that next person my best, it's better to pause. It's better to just wait.   - Wade Brown And the folks around me know that. And they're comfortable with it. Know, no, there's not been any repercussions from that whatsoever. In fact, I think there's it's been the opposite.   - Wade Brown It's just that ability to say, you know what, I'm not OK today and I need to I need to do something different or I need to take a break or I need to get out of my home office, especially during this COVID stuff.   - Wade Brown So that's you know, that's probably the the best kind of example I can share is I can I've I've just I can recognize when those feelings are there. And through counselling have also come to understand that you can't just shove them aside because they don't go away. And they're not like fine wine that you get, they will get better.   - Liesel Mertes So they don't get better with age.   - Wade Brown They don't age well.   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm struck that it's a choice towards brave vulnerability and being able to ask for that space. I'm struck that, especially for classically high performers, that that can be wrapped up in some feelings of self judgement or shame of like I shouldn't need to ask for this. I'm used to being able to perform easily and consistently. Did you encounter some of those initial feelings of shame or I should just be able to push through this? And if you did, how did you work through some of those feelings?   - Wade Brown We thought so, yes. And it still happens today. I mean, it's not something that you just turn off. It's just something that you kind of experientially you learn to recognize and work through. And and.   - Wade Brown Again, through, you know, the chats that I've had with Elizabeth, it that really hope and healing, it's important to, it's important to do that and and allow it to have its moments so that you can address it and not try to just stick it in your back pocket. But shame, I don't know that shame might be a bit of a strong way to to say it. But I as I said before, I take I take my job very, very seriously, as we all do.   - Wade Brown And that doesn't necessarily make me special or unique.   - Wade Brown But I know the things that I do and say have a direct effect on others. And so I and I want to give them my best. And if I can't do it in that moment, it's OK to wait for a moment when I can.   - Wade Brown So but I still it still comes up for sure. Like even, you know, you know, going through second quarter clothes and what is arguably the most difficult financial operational quarter I've ever had to lead a team through, you know, did trying to get to the finish line and, you know. You're like, OK. I have no choice. I have to push through because now people are depending on this financially. Right. And so you have to muscle your way through some of those things.   - Wade Brown It's not an absolute either or if they're right.   - Wade Brown Like they're still going to be those moments. You know what? Yeah. Just gotta go. Just get to bed. Just go. But that's not all the time by any means.   - Wade Brown And and I'm also a year and a half removed from Joshua's death. So it's not it's not like it's not like it was, you know, a year ago this time it's you know, it's it's changed. It's adapted. It's evolving. So and so by and so is my support network.   - Liesel Mertes You know, frankly, you've you've touched on some of the things that are at work, whether that was resonance with people that came up to you after speaking or the support that Tina and your mom provided over the phone. What were other things that were especially meaningful to you in the aftermath of Joshua's death that you said, well, this like this meant something deeply to me. I'm so glad that people moved towards me in this way.   - Wade Brown Yeah, that's so. This is an easy one. And it was Joshua's visitation and his funeral. And we had we estimated between nine hundred and a thousand people. Wow. Came for Joshua's visitation.   - Wade Brown And so we were at the church. And of course, there's lots of people there. And it's it's a significant emotional event. And I knew I was going to have some visitors from from GE and from Roche because Roche is local. And, of course, you know, I've got the folks that I work with actually as well. What I wasn't expecting or prepared for was that it would be like a hundred from all over. I mean, people flew in from all over the United States to be there with.   - Wade Brown With me and my family, and when I'm in this greeting line, you know, it's, again, this sudden it's like a week before that. None of this existed. And so now you're thrust into this and you're at the church and it's it's your choice and it's for your son. It's for your child.   The company headquarters are in Milwaukee and a group of his colleagues chartered a bus to come down to the funeral.  And they arrived wearing team fleeces that Wade had passed out earlier at the team retreat.  This visual display of solidarity was incredibly powerful.    - Wade Brown Oh they were filing in through the door in those blue pullovers and it was, it was surreal. I, I, I've never, I've never felt moved that way. Really in my life. And it was it was extraordinary. And then soon after I started recognizing Roche faces as well from my team that I led while I was at Roche Diagnostics. Obviously, some from here from Indianapolis, but also people that had traveled in from from all over the country.   - Wade Brown And it was incredible, really. It was incredible. And then the next day at his funeral. Not all, but many of those same faces were still there, especially from, you know, from my GE crew. And so just to see them when I was giving Joshua's eulogy served as an incredible source of strength. It didn't make me sad. It actually it actually was fortifying, if I could say it.   - Wade Brown And it helped me deliver a really, really difficult message. And which. And the promise for Joshua that pulled forward that we pulled forward from that eulogy. My team has helped. Kerry,   - Wade Brown The second one, there's a bit of a long answer to your question, the second one we so already touched on before and there's been lots of private moments. There's there's there there's too many. And there's been so many private moments. Just calls, text messages. I get I get pictures of rainbows every day of my life from all over the world, literally.   - Wade Brown And it's because of the promise for Joshua. But the when I spoke on stage last May. 2019. And what happened in the two days that followed. Liesel, as I shared before, I, I just never experienced anything like that in my life in it and it's in it. It had two clear sides to it. It was the one side just being oh my gosh, that was hard. And I wasn't, I wasn't ready. I wasn't mentally or emotionally prepared for what came to me in a couple of days, even beyond that, beyond just those two days.   - Wade Brown But certainly in those 48 hours, because you're held hostage at a meeting resort, you know, you're you're in a hostage situation.   - Liesel Mertes So you may see. But still a hostage situation.   - Wade Brown It you're right. So you're on a compound, you know, with with 500 plus people. So there's no place to hide. But the but the just this real at the other side of it was just this realization that and everybody's got it. And people want to talk about it. And to the extent that we can foster an environment where people can do that and feel comfortable. I think it's additive to, you know, to everything that we do.   - Wade Brown And we represent, you know, as a team and as a company and and as friends. Frankly, I work with people that I would do anything for. And I would have I would have held that belief before the Joshua experience. But certainly now I've just the personal and public, private and public support that I've received from people that I work with. And this has been has been extraordinary.   - Liesel Mertes I am. I always like to ask as well, because we learn both from people's positive experiences but also from the negative ones. Lots of times when people are people get uncomfortable as a default, sometimes with other people's pain, and they find themselves saying or doing things that kind of missed the mark. As you think back on a town like a lot of positive experiences, what are those that you would say, oh, man, like this? This was just bad. I would I would counsel people. Don't ever do this. This really missed the mark with me.   - Wade Brown I up I got some of those. I call it. I'm sorry. That used to be well but it's but it's just part of the journey.   - Wade Brown I mean, really. And and so it's not all rainbows and butterflies. There's there's also been some in, you know, some intensely inappropriate moments. And so I've I've definitely had a couple of those. I think. You know, soon after Joshua died, this was within. In fact, it was live. I did a I did it. I took my team into the woods again. So you'll see a trend here. Liesel, I like to I like to do meetings that are different.   - Wade Brown And so I love getting off the grid because then you can just be you can be yourself better. We had done that. My my boss, Rob, had actually encouraged me to cancel the meeting and just can just wait. I strongly disagreed. I needed to be with my people. And so Joshua died January 30th. And so this was in in late March. So this was just a couple months later. And and I needed to see my people.   - Wade Brown I needed to be able to tell them, one, that I was OK. And two, that I loved them for everything that they had done for Cynthia and myself and our kids. But that first night, there were a handful of us that were having an evening libation. And somebody looked at me and said, "Wow, was Joshua bipolar?" And I, I, I was it took my breath away. It just the timing. It was just it was it was it was.   - Wade Brown Wow. I can't believe you just asked me that question about my about my dead child. And that one sticks with me. And so I that, as you can tell, that when it came came out pretty quickly. Yeah. There's a there's a I call it fresh eyes.   - Wade Brown So when you get when you see them   - Liesel Mertes Just for a second, because I think it's I want to unpack that because I think it's a there's perhaps something profound that did that didn't feel particularly hurtful because it felt detached or because it felt judgmental or not hitting you? Like as you think about why that comment hit you the way it did. Like what? What is at the root of some of how I just felt so jarring?   - Wade Brown I think that the words you use judgmental is probably appropriate.   - Wade Brown It just it felt like we had we had and we still to this day, we do. That's not what we believe to be the case. Joshua, there were no no expressions or symptoms or manifestations of a mental the mental health issue or issues. And certainly had had we had never sought any counseling or help for any symptoms with Joshua because there weren't any. And so but it wasn't just that that I was asked that question. It was inter-group price.   - Wade Brown And it was just inappropriate. And I. And it it it lacked empathy. Yeah. It just it was completely void of any empathy. And just a lack of self-awareness. And it hurt.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for unpacking that more. I hear a certain speculative nature to it. Just maybe somebody their own curiosity more than attention to you or certainly attention to the wider group setting as being particularly wounding.   - Wade Brown Yeah. Especially, you know, 60 ish days afterwards. And just just shouldn't have done it.   - Wade Brown There is there's an expression that Cynthia and I use and it's I deemed it fresh eyes. And what I mean by that is when you encounter somebody who doesn't know their eyes. And so there's a there's a a paradigm shift that happens once you share that that's, you know, that that that's happened in your life, that you've got a child. It's. That's especially teenager has committed suicide. 14 year old. There's a paradigm shift that happens in that moment. And you can see there the expression in their eyes change. And so I. I look for that. And when I see it, I try. What I've learned is because I don't think in. Nobody has poor intentions. They just don't know how to react because it's they're hit with that moment of suddenness as well. It's a sad story.   - Wade Brown It's shocking. And so I try to, you know, immediately provide some reassurance, you know, that it's OK. It's OK to talk about it. Just to to help. You know, help settle them down, because it can be very. It can be very unsettling. Right?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, it will. And I. I hear in that it's it is a particular it is a particular burden. That can happen in its own way, because if you're a perceptive person, you know that it throws the listener. And then especially in those early days, it can be its own burden of having to shepherd their response, like, oh, now I've got to like, strangely kind of care for you and let you know that I am okay enough, then it's OK here. And it's it's particular nuanced. What can often happen in social dynamics.   - Wade Brown Well, it is. And it kind of goes back to your your question before about like so what's what's not being good or being uncomfortable. Well that's, that's, that's into this part of the equation because you beat it.   - Wade Brown So I of course, I always feel compelled to reassure them that, you know, it's OK to talk about what we're doing, OK? And if they if they give some offer of condolences or say they're sorry, then of course, acknowledge that and thank them. Thank them for that. What what can sometimes follow, though, is it it's not quite as as biting as you know, was Joshua bipolar. But then there's this assumption. That because we've experienced this, that now I have this definitive tie to mental health.   - Wade Brown I'm not sure that I do or I don't.   - Wade Brown And so because I've been asked to speak specifically about mental health in my research. And so my response is, well, I'm not sure you like what. And under what context and what what would you like me to talk about? Because I am not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not here to diagnose anybody. I'm just a witness for something that happened in my life that I think provides just innumerable teachable moments.   - Wade Brown And I love my son in the best way that I can honor my son and carry him forward is to share the story in such a way that it helps others. It's not that it's not to get pity. It's not to get sympathy. It's because if you hear my story and then you have a conversation with a teenager that helped you avoid what I've gone through, then that's a victory.   - Liesel Mertes If you were speaking to a listener who is walking with someone who has recently had a child commit suicide, what particular words would you offer them as to how to come alongside that person?   - Wade Brown Well. That's a tough one we saw and I've actually. You know, fortunately, unfortunately, I've had those experiences, teenage suicide is is not a one off event.   - Wade Brown Yeah, it's. It's you said it's a it's a terrible travesty within within our world today and in in our culture and not unique to the U.S. But certainly that's what we feel here. And I I get to have these conversations. And so, you know, I, I try to. Hit and it's. I've had it with a couple of people that I work with, actually. And then, of course, you know, there's been some community touches there, but it's really it's it's.   - Wade Brown I wouldn't expect anybody to try to, you know, really fully understand or or try to heal me. It's really just to be supportive and to listen and and that it's OK to talk about and that, you know, there's nothing. There's there's a suicide, you know, just has this this, you know, this nasty kind of. Or about it that it's that it's not supposed to be talked about, that it's it's a private thing. I'm struggling for the right word.   - Wade Brown It's like a.. What would you call. It's like the. It's like it's taboo or anything. Yeah. Like you're not supposed to talk about it, it's like this secret thing and it it only happens in the most tragic of situations and. And how did you not know what happened? Oh, it was going to happen. Did you see signs? I mean, I ask myself that every single day of my life and I will the rest my life.   - Wade Brown But it doesn't have to be that way that it's OK to talk about it and it's OK to hold someone's hand and let them cry and to empathize with them and where they are and be there to support them.   - Wade Brown Yeah, I guess I want to answer more specifically for so I guess maybe I'm just struggling to come up.   - Liesel Mertes That's a good answer. I appreciate those insights.   - Wade Brown It's hard. I mean, it real, it's it's one of the it's I had a quote, a colleague that passed away last week from a long, long battle with pancreatic cancer. And I've known I knew Jeff for. Going back to my first time at GE., so more than 20 years and the guy guy's a warrior. But. In an ad in that not that this doesn't make it. I'm not trying to minimize it at all.   - Wade Brown But that's not what I'm doing. But it was. Gonna happen soon. Is it like that? It's that, right? It's just the suddenness of it. It's so different. It's even something I've talked about this like even if if you know someone who's lost a loved one in a car crash, it again, the suddenness. But it was an accident. It was a it's just it's just different. So I try to just. There's a.   - Wade Brown There's just a notion around suicide or or knowing someone that took their own life. I feel it's it's just it just need to be there. There's there was another notion that I wanted to share to. And if I can't, maybe. Now does it. Yeah.   - Wade Brown  It kind of goes back to the things that I've learned and what's kind of the on the good side of the ledger and the difficult side of the ledger. But what I've recognized is it's not really it's not really a difficulty.   - Wade Brown It's just a recognition that people are different. And their response and their approach to me is going to be different depending on who they are. And Liz, share this with me at Riley. And it's, there are sprinter's and there's marathoners. The sprinters are going to be there in moments and they're gonna love you and they're going to support you and they're going to embrace you and they will do anything for you. But then they move on. Right. But they'll come back.   - Wade Brown It's not that they're disingenuous. It's just their approach is, hey, I got you. I've got you right now. I'm talking to you right now. And I take care of you right now. But then the next day they're off. Then they're right. The marathoners like Tina, my my admin partner, she's a marathoner. She's with me every single day. Same level of intensity. And neither one is right or wrong. They're just different.   - Wade Brown And so I've offered that as well as I've had conversations where someone someone's at a loss in their family, especially with suicide, is that there's going to be people around you that are going to be there for you in the moment. But then they move on and then there's going to be people who are just going to be checking on you every single day. And neither one is right or wrong. They're just they're just different. So don't I would because what happened with me, the sprinter's, so to speak, to people who would check in, I like, wow, was that genuine or not?   - Wade Brown Right now they don't want to talk about it.   - Wade Brown They want to talk about work. They want to talk about you want to talk about football. I get what I've got confused by that. But at a more clear with experience that there is a distinct difference there. And neither one is is right or wrong. They're both they're both good, well intentioned. They're just different.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. They definitely both hear that and have experienced that and can even think in my own experience as like the person on the giving end, like, oh, I was a sprinter there and I was a marathoner there.   And it's it's a it's a good lens to be able to look through. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned at the top of our conversation that the verse in Joshua one nine and Be Strong and Courageous was an anchoring sentiment for you.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me how you are, how that is continuing to influence you here in July of 2020?   - Wade Brown Well, as I've said and I've written grief Ben's time. It's like it doesn't no time. It doesn't no place. And so we're we're gonna forever be on a grief journey. And so in those moments where you need for me, if I just need a booster shot, it's a go-to. It's my son's name. It's yeah. It's it. It's an incredible verse in and of itself and the depth and the meaning and the context. And so it's a it's a go-to, Liesel.   - Wade Brown And it's that way for all of my family. I even have it in my phone a little. Auto type I put in JVB, Joshua Thomas Brown and Joshua, one nine with the Rainbow spits out, you know. So I use that. I use that. I use that frequently. And we have it, you know, obviously. Well, you wouldn't know. You haven't been here, but it's visible in our house in a in a multiple a multitude of ways.   - Wade Brown And yet it's a go to. It's a safe it's a safe place for my family.   - Wade Brown And in some of the people that I work with as well. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything that it feels important to add that I have not asked you that you would like to? Reflect on.   - Wade Brown Yeah. So I would I would love to. Just ask those that that listen and yourself to make that promise for Joshua. You know what I've. What I've learned and continue to learn. Is, you know, these. Teenage suicide is is real and and but I've also understand that it's difficult to talk about.   - Wade Brown And so but I also know that it's necessary. And so I would my ask is, you know, for for anyone that is listening in to make sure that you're talking to the kids in your life and it doesn't just have to be your own children. We're, we're parents, we're teachers. we're coaches, we're neighbors, we're parishioners, we're all of these things around kids. And I think in and in today's world with COVID and now with and all of the things that we're seeing, you know, through the news and social media around the country, kids, it's so easy for kids to end up feeling alone and isolated and trying to find happiness in a screen, whether it's their phone or or otherwise.   - Wade Brown And parents just yet, adults need to make sure that they're engaging with kids. And while it's difficult, it's necessary to talk about suicide and talk about hurting yourself. And so that that would be an ask. I would have. Liesel, is that is that folks make that promise do. And it's not a one and done. It's not. And if you see a rainbow no matter where. No. No matter how you use that as a reminder to have that had that conversation.   - Wade Brown Make that promise for Joshua. I have I have accumulated very specific examples of those conversations having taken place where interventions occur. And so I just been prevented. Now, it doesn't mean that it's prevented forever. But in that moment, a suicide was was prevented. And it's because of job, because of Joshua's promise and telling kids it's okay to say something. If it's a friend, if it's a neighbor, if it's a classmate and something's wrong. It just takes three words, you know.   - Wade Brown Dad. Something wrong, Mom? Something wrong? Yeah. Because I would rather lose a friend.   - Wade Brown In the short term, then to lose a friend forever, and so that would be at least I just   - Wade Brown I think it's you know, there's so much pressure on kids today. They've been taken out of schools and put at home. They, you know, for the longest time, couldn't even go see their friends, kids coming home from college campuses. It's not just teenagers. I mean, young adults as well, unemployment. And then, of course, all the things that we see in the news with the riots and in protest.   - Wade Brown It weighs on kids in an extraordinary way. And we just can't be dismissive of it. The fact that sometimes those thoughts come in there and they have to be talked about.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Thank you. That's a good and important word. I appreciate that.   - Wade Brown Yeah, for sure.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Wade Showing up matters.Go to the funeral, send the text, make the call.  Even if you don’t fully know what to do or say, your support matters.  And this is a sort of point 1b guidance.  When you show up, especially in the aftermath of someone committing suicide, try to be aware of appropriate boundaries on how and what you ask about.  Wade spoke to the pain of having someone pry into whether or not Joshua is bipolar.  And here is a bit of guidance.  Before asking a question, take a moment to interrogate yourself.  Are you asking about of your own curiosity or because you are actually trying to support the other person?  You might have noticed in this episode that I did not ask about the details of how Joshua committed suicide.  This was purposeful.  If someone is not offering those details, I choose not to root around for specifics.  Knowing the details of death does not have a material impact on how I can come alongside someone.  More than anything, it serves my own curiosity and could feel prying and invasive to the person I am in conversation with.  Take a moment to pause and reflect on why you are asking the question you are asking as you relate to a parent who has lost a child.  And if you blunder your way into a mistake, go back and apologize.  When it comes to comfort, Wade offered a metaphor that was powerful and nuanced.He talked about how there are marathoners and sprinters in the world of the grieving:  there are people that will be able to come alongside you with great intensity and then seem to fade away and there are those that are there for the long-haul.  It is with great maturity that Wade talks about how one is not better than the other and that recognizing people’s different capacities allowed him to not just feel confused by those that seemed to be present than then fade away.  Cultures of support are essential to helping your team thrive.Wade noted several times that everyone has their Joshua:  everyone has a pain that they carry into their workplace.  Through his loss, Wade began to cultivate a purposeful openness and culture of support in his team at GE…and he attributes this openness to significantly contributing to his team’s ability to weather the challenges of COVID-19.    OUTRO Resources for talking with your teen about suicide: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psychoanalysis-unplugged/201807/speaking-your-teen-about-suicide   General information on teen suicide: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/tween-and-teen-health/in-depth/teen-suicide/art-20044308

- Jason Seiden That meant that I would gladly, if I could be the last person ever lose a child. I would I would take that on, if I could, to say it like that's how horrible it is that I don't ever want anybody else to feel it. And so other folks actually telling me that they're happy and that they're like, I think they would feel like I would feel worse, like rubbing it in.   - Jason Seiden But actually, no, you know, that's it's the opposite. Like live your life. And tell me you've opened up your eyes and you're stepping into it and you're aware of the discomfort and you're aware about the hard choices you're making and you're doing it and you're celebrating those wins because they're so few and far between. Those were, the those were the best things.   INTRO   Jason Seiden is joining me today to talk about his daughter Elle.  Elle was passionate about social justice causes, possessed of a sardonic humor.  She was insightful and creative…and she is dead.  She committed suicide after suffering from debilitating pain due to CRPS (complex regional pain syndrome) diagnosis and committed suicide at fifteen years old.    What does it mean to honor her legacy, to remember her in all her fullness?  What does it mean as a father to live a life that encompasses such a profound loss but is not ultimately defined by that pain?  Jason is articulate, reflective, and honest in this powerful conversation.    Before we begin, I’d like to thank our sponsors.  First, we are sponsored by FullStack PEO.  Providing full-service solutions for entrepreneurs and small business, FullStack manages the details so you can get back to doing what you do best, running your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care HR Solutions, with engaging, interactive training ans coaching sessions, we empower you to give meaningful support to your people as they go through disruptive life events.    Back to our conversation.  First, as a sidenote, Jason was sitting outside during the first part of our conversation due to water damage and clean up crews in his house…and you might hear the birds singing under some of his thoughts.   In the months after my daughter, Mercy, died, someone reflected that there wasn’t a word in the English language for a parent who has a child die.  If your spouse dies, you are a widow.  If your parent dies, you are an orphan.  It is almost like the death of a child feels so against the nature of things that language itself can’t encompass the loss.    Jason and I began our conversation talking about the difficulty of talking about the death of a child.  Jason has founded and sold businesses, he is a gifted teacher, trainer and communicator.  He recalled putting together a presentation on the fly.   So. Yeah. So I a 19 and a half minute clip. And I lost the teleprompter halfway through. And still in one take was done in less than 20 minutes.   - Jason Seiden And then my partner at the time spent three hours trying to record the same 20 minute clip. Yep. This is hard. They said this is this is you know, I'm speaking from a much different place and I'm surprised at how difficult it is.   - Liesel Mertes One person's journey is not anyone else's. But I remember specifically in that the aftermath of my daughter Mercy dying. It felt so in. I mean, there's so many things that make it feel de-centered. And but for me, like if there's anything that I traffic in and feel comfortable in the world, it's words like it's it's been able to communicate. Similarly, you know, I have my own stories of like know what? Like I feel adept in that realm.   - Liesel Mertes And to come to a place where it's like I. I feel. It just feels different. And it felt it felt like it it have done a skill set, that it was like I'm normally so comfortable doing this.   - Liesel Mertes How could even this feel altered? Well, you're aspects of that.   - Jason Seiden And I know you well, I want to talk about the journey since losing Elle. But I think this is this is actually a great opener because it's it's true. I've journaled my entire life. I've written my entire life. I've written books. I have novel length stories that you'll never see the light of day written. And when when I wrote after her passing, I went back to read some of those journals. And some of them are very clear, like, this is a man who's in pain and who's articulate about it.   - Jason Seiden And then there's other journal entries that are just noise. It's you read those you like. Oh, that's what it looks like. It's unintelligible. It's it's it's complete. It's just you. These are not sentences. These are not phrases. That makes sense. These are, this is raw stuff. And it's remarkable. And you kind of say to yourself, I'm good with words. I lived with a thesaurus, I'm specific with them. And if I'm struggling to find just even the basics, how is everybody else going to do?   - Jason Seiden Right. You know, we don't we don't step into things that are hard. We tend to avoid things that are hard. And this is this is the hardest. So I think most people avoid grief when possible. Certainly the kind of grief that we've had. And that just means, they're completely unprepared. I was entirely unprepared for what happened. And trust me, if I could have avoided it, I would have. It's a hell of a journey to be to find yourself in particular for the first time.   - Jason Seiden And then also you are surrounded by people who are equally as inarticulate to help.   - Liesel Mertes And that's you know, that gets to also the profoundly isolating nature of grief because to to communicate where you are, like it's hard enough to just know, like, you feel like you're throwing words against a wall. But to be able to be understood by another person and that can just feel so daunting. Like, I don't even know how I'm feeling. And now I've got to find some words to have, you know, what I'm feeling.   - Liesel Mertes And maybe it's just better to be alone. You know, it can be that retreat. And to just I don't even know.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, well, I think there's a, I think there's a lot of truth to that. If I go back, I still default. I bridge that problem with something that I started defaulting to the week Elle passed. So I lost my daughter a year and a half ago. Coming up on two years, actually. And she, she died of suicide. She had been very sick prior to that. And she was in intense pain. She had a condition called CRPS. complex regional pain syndrome.   - Jason Seiden And it's it's just it's nerve pain. And it's always on. It never stops. Nerve pain, like when the dentist hits the nerve in your tooth and you hit the ceiling. And she had it in both her legs treatments for years. Nothing was was helping. It was getting worse in certain circles. It's actually known as the suicide disease because it doesn't have the decency to kill you. But, yeah, it's it's close. You know, it's terminal.   - Jason Seiden Who can live with that pain or that amount of time? So there's others, too. It sounds awful, but there's this one benefit that I got, which was despite having lost her to suicide. I don't I don't wonder. Could I have done more? Was there you write like that. Mental health is invisible. And it's real, but it's invisible and it's it's difficult as a human to accept things you don't see without wondering, could I have had some sort of control over that?   - Jason Seiden And when it's physical and you can see it, it's a little bit easier to go. I couldn't control that. That was a thing. And it was a whole conversation we could have around mental health and how it needs to be in the same category. But for, for this, what I wanted to say was in those early days, the words that it was that were most easy for people to find were were those around how Elle died, what she died of, what her condition was prior.   - Jason Seiden And I very quickly found myself initially trapped by that. It put me in the past. It put me you know, I had, had this journey of trying to help her and in all kinds of stuff was going on. You can imagine the complexity of the dynamics of dealing with, by the way, not only a crippling disease, but the most misdiagnosed disease out there. Right. It just was so I didn't want to be in that space. And it kind of struck me one day to a lot of thinking and metaphors.   - Jason Seiden And I couldn't find the words myself, but I had this metaphor that sort of hit me. I'm talking about Elle in terms of CRPS would be like talking about MLK, Martin Luther King, in terms of gun rights, you know, or Anwar Sadat in terms of gun rights. It's like, yeah, these guys were assassinated. That's true. But they stood for something else. They lived for something else. What they lived for what they died of were totally different.   - Jason Seiden To make MLK the poster child of gun rights would be to lose his legacy as a civil rights leader. What a shame. You know, you kind of you know, you'd have to kind of look at him and go, OK, technically true, but we're not going to use him for that. Like, we're not gonna make him. And I don't mean to use him. Right. But we're not going to. That's just not going to be his legacy.   - Jason Seiden And with Elle, sorry, it was just it was the same thing. You know, she was a social warrior. She lived for stuff that she didn't die of. And so I found those words and I found it. Redirecting people really helped me control my narrative. And I still do that. I still use that today.   - Liesel Mertes And tell me a little bit more about her, about some of the things that made her distinctly her and those causes. And particularly if, you know, she's she's a she's a fully fledged person behind the memory I'd love to hear more.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, absolutely. And so very early on before she was born, I just had a feeling about Elle. And I've got I've got two daughters there and I've learned first on Elle. And it's just proven true with my other daughter as well, that as a parent, my job was just to get the stuff off the high shelf.   - Jason Seiden You know, these kids coming up, they're fully formed. They're they're, a bit like flowers. Right? Do they have to for all. They have to blossom. But the flowers in there.   - Jason Seiden Nothing I could do to change the raw material. And and, you know, so Elle was very special. She, she had a wicked sense of humor. Like, just even from a very, very like an impossibly young age. Understood sarcasm. I don't know if your grandparents on your side. I mean, she couldn't because she couldn't have been like more than a year old. And my grandparents would come and babysit her for more than once. She's understanding sarcasm. Yeah.   - Jason Seiden I changed the tone of my voice. And she doesn't laugh. I flip the words around. She looked like she only laughs when it's a deadpan opposite, you know? The description is deadpan and opposite of what's true. She is following sarcasm. And it just, it was why she was always very tapped in. She she just you know, she came to this world with knowledge that you look at her and. There's no way that that knowledge came from five years of existence on this planet.   - Jason Seiden It's just kind be living proof of something bigger.   - Jason Seiden  And she had a way of getting noticed. I'll tell you one story, which is just one of our segments. When the girls were maybe 7 years old, I took to sort of overnight count drops kids leave families rent cabins, and then have a dozen families in those camps all up in Sweetwater, skier No.12 things. They did a talent show and one girl after another is getting up and doing cartwheels and walkovers.   - Jason Seiden And they're up there for ten seconds. Let me run off the stage, get going.  Elle gets up there and start a cappella singing. Don't stop believing.   That's awesome.   - Jason Seiden And the camp director stops her, runs up to the stage. Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I'll think something's. She turns on all the equipment plugs in her iPod, iPod, and let's Elle do the full five, five and a half minute song scene over Steve Perry. We're all downloading on our phones. The lighter apps are holding them up like a concert.   - Jason Seiden And that was Elle, you know, just just being able to put your finger on the gestalt start of the moment and own it. And it is remarkable. And so you're kind of one of the reasons why I don't like thinking of her when she was sick was all of that power. It's not just that it went away. It never went away. So, you know, somebody with that much kind of cosmic ability gets sick, real sick. It's just it's so wrong and so far away from what she works for, what she stood for.   - Jason Seiden She was always so zoned in. So you wanted this story. This is actually relevant to her legacy. So I do a lot of communications work at my house up with certain companies and also internal internal comms. Well, politics has a role in that. And there's an immediate negative connotation to politics that people have. And so to break it out, I would give people this moral dilemma. And, you know, I just let them sit with it where they realize, OK, I may not like politics, but they're real.   - Jason Seiden I can't escape this question. Damned if I do or damned if I don't. It's one of those kinds of things. And I posed it to Elle. She's 10 years old. And Liesel, I'm telling you. Maybe two adults out of hundreds. I posed this question to and Elle heard the question and she said, well, you know, the only way to win is to not play you both these actions. Horrible. It's just a you're just choosing which value you want to violate and which value you want to maintain.   - Jason Seiden That can't be true to yourself with either. You know, I think the outcomes once you're in that position. Like, oh, my God, she's 10. And she understood that. And here so, you know, so it's, it just it felt. It has always felt important to honor, you said, who she was. Things that made her unique.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Those are some remarkable memories of who she was and, yeah, what she brought the color and dynamics.   - Liesel Mertes I want to talk about, yeah, the journey after her death.   - Liesel Mertes I'm, I'm struck that even as you are carrying her legacy, you, you are also shaped by who you needed to become in the midst of watching her be sick.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of the things that you noted in yourself as a parent, at that time, that shaped you?   - Jason Seiden The things that I noted as a person and same things and as a person of. Life has to be lived and risks have to be taken. The only way to not make a mistake is to not play the game. And that's so you're just not safe as a as a parent. I'd always cited my job as kind of two parts, one part keeping my kids safe and two parts helping them unlock who they are and, you know, make the most of this world. And, you know, my daughter's gone. So a very, very fundamental way, I did not keep her safe.   - Jason Seiden We can have a very intellectual conversation, Did I control her getting ill. And, of course, like, you know what? No, of course not. But it's like you're never going to tell me. I will never be able to feel that as a parent because she's gone. I. So this the game, whatever, whatever that's I was making whatever balance I was trying to strike between keeping you safe in the world or the game with her. It was frozen.   - Jason Seiden Right. It's it's lockdown. There is no no more time on the clock. There's no hope. There's no tomorrow. There's nothing's going to change. And so they're validating that recognition that there is no safe there. There is no harm.   - Jason Seiden By the way, not only do you have to play the game and not only your mistakes be made, but there's consequences for those mistakes. People will be hurt when you make a mistake. I've had to I've had to come to grips with that both as a parent and as a human.   - Jason Seiden And it's, it's, you start to see the world a different way.   - Liesel Mertes What, what does, I'm struck by how profound and. Yeah. Awful. That feeling is because so much of what we get to do living in like a wealthy, affluent, you know, society is we don't have to feel unsafe in so many areas of life. And and to feel it at such a visceral level is horrible. When you say, you know, I've had to come to grips with that. What has that looked like for you?   - Jason Seiden I don't know. That's a powerful question. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'll tell you, it feels like things. It feels like my life before was it's just been pulled to the extremes. And I'm not dealing with any emotions that were foreign to me. I'm just dealing with a lot more of them. So it's funny, I actually said, you know, here's this girl who introduced me to stretch my capacity for joy in one direction. And then the passion stretched my capacity for sorrowing another.   - Jason Seiden On some level, like how do you just not feel gratitude for somebody who gives you more life to live? And. It shows like that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Jason Seiden You're constantly playing other people's emotions at life events and realities. You have to live your life. If you live boldly, you will. Other people will be hurt. And you have to be OK with that. I'm not saying you should be indiscriminate or not care. I'm just saying to be simultaneously OK, moving in the light, doing your best, try and take care of people and understanding you can't save everybody. In fact, the act of saving one person might cause somebody else to be hurt.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. And you feel it if it goes through an intellectual concept to something, you feel very deeply and constantly.   - Liesel Mertes Elle died. And you said it's been a year and a half.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. A little more coming up on two years.   - Liesel Mertes Okay. Still, when something horrible happens like that and even, you know, the. The journey of walking with an often misdiagnosed disease. All of those things. What were you finding that you, what were people offering you in the way of, like comfort or presence in that, you know, messy aftermath? That was really meaningful to you? Or even now, just things that you'd say, "Man like these people did it really well. They came alongside me and it mattered?"   - Jason Seiden It's for windchimes. So that's, that's Elle. They went off the top of our call and I just heard them.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. So. For so long, surprised at how much. I'm not somebody who asks for a lot of emotional support. Probably not dissimilar from a lot of men that way. But I was surprised at how much I actually needed it.  They were largely, I was really struck in the immediate aftermath at how supportive people were. It was absolutely incredible.   - Jason Seiden My professional colleagues are scattered all over the country, all over the world. And without my without my engagement, a few of them, Mark Stelzner, Lori Rudiment. Susan Strier.   - Jason Seiden I had friends who, you know, without without my help. I put up a page and tribute to Elle. She she died a couple of weeks before my birthday day. They promoted it for my birthday, a tribute to Elle and I just watched, I watched for  for twenty five thousand dollars get raised in a day in honor of my daughter for a small handful of charities. The Human Rights Campaign, chief amongst them. The United Colors Foundation, which helps LGBTQ homeless youth and Burning Land, which is a CRPS foundation. And it was it was absolutely incredible.   - Jason Seiden The next thing I know, the CRPS Foundation has a grant in its name that had been funded. HRC flew a flag in my daughter's honor, which I now have. It's it was astounding. So, in the immediate aftermath, how important, it was incredible,   - Jason Seiden As you can imagine. You know, as time goes on, everyone goes back to their lives. I've had a handful of people have continued to reach out. And it's so helpful. On the homefront. Everybody here has been incredibly helpful.   - Liesel Mertes What has that continuing to reach out looked like?   - Jason Seiden Literally just a check in and a thinking of you. That is all it takes.   - Liesel Mertes I think sometimes people fear that because they think out of the person doesn't want to talk. Or what if it brings up bad memories? Maybe I just won't do that. From your experience, how would you speak into like that, that cycle of second guessing that people can have as they should. I reach out and I'm out. What if they don't want to talk   - Jason Seiden I'd go back to what I was saying before? You have to live your life. You might make mistakes. Go make the damn mistake. Engage and you know. OK. So I'll tell you, the waffling shows up. And from my perspective, as the one going through this, It shows up and I can see it a mile away and I end up in a position then of having to take care of the people who are reaching out to me. Sure. I know it's fairly common. And, you know, and you do a great sweat.   - Jason Seiden I mean, like, this is such a horrible thing. I get it. We don't spend time with this if we don't have to. I'll assume it happens to you or something you're close to. You don't have to. Yes. So the, the, the fact that people are unprepared for it, I'm not surprised. The most helpful thing, we just when people reach out.   - Jason Seiden Actually, the most helpful thing is when people would reach out and say, I'm thinking of you. I just had a lovely time with my family. Oh, great day. And I was thinking of you and I was thinking about. And I gave my kids an extra hug and I made sure I didn't take it for granted. That made me happy.   - Jason Seiden And it's, it's so funny with these people would reach out and, I can't imagine what you're going through. And I always look at them and be like, why would you take one moment of your life and try to imagine what I'm going through? But yet we all know it's horrible. Don't waste your time. Just write like it's horrible. Check the box pass, you know. You know, it's a kids with, you know. This is gross. Taste it. No, no, no. Not to me.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. It's like that. Except with consequence, you know. No. Right.   - Jason Seiden I actually loved when people would tell me that, you know, they were thinking of me and they weren't taking the life for granted as a result because that meant that Elle counted.   - Jason Seiden That meant that I would gladly, if I could be the last person ever lose a child. I would I would take that on, if I could, to say it like that's how horrible it is that I don't ever want anybody else to feel it. And so other folks actually telling me that they're happy and that they're like, I think they would feel like I would feel worse, like rubbing it in.   - Jason Seiden But actually, no, you know, that's it's the opposite. Like live your life. And tell me you've opened up your eyes and you're stepping into it and you're aware of the discomfort and you're aware about the hard choices you're making and you're doing it and you're celebrating those wins because they're so few and far between. Those were, the those were the best things. Yeah.   - Jason Seiden I mean, I will say because it's relevant. I mean, we we. We tend to think of our personal life happening in one area, in our professional life happening in another. And they don't. A decade ago, I actually coined a term, "profersonal" for, you know, this notion of the bleed over. You know, we spend a lot of time working. And so what was really surprising was how difficult that transition was without the folks on the work front doing some of that, acknowledging as well.   - Jason Seiden Not just my friends. But, you know, this is where I'm spending my time. It really helps when, when professional colleagues check in as well. Otherwise, your your work starts to feel like just this void where it's like I have to go put on a, you know, put on a mask for the majority of my day.   - Jason Seiden You know, I I think this notion of. The notion of grief at work is not trivial. It's a huge part of people's days. And, you know, I'll say I worked at it at an organization when this went down. You know, the organization I was with great culture, phenomenal culture. But this was a this was a blindspot. And it showed, and it it had an impact, like the journey could have been different.   - Jason Seiden And. What I, what I could  have done quicker or more of, I think would have been. It would have been. I could've done more. Yeah, I couldn't move through some of this faster. And. And at the end of the day, I think there's a real. You know, I I'm getting through it. I will get through it. But I think the organization lost something. And when you kind of look at large organizations with hundreds or thousands of people, here we are in COVID, and the loss is real.  People are losing people.   - Jason Seiden And there there's complicated grief happening out because they're they're unable to be with the ones they love. Now is the time to actually step into this and to have that compassion. The benefits are are substantial. They're. And they're there at multiple levels. The economic benefit, the just, the benefit to us as humans. I think it's important that our organizations step into this breach and start recognizing grief is something that we all have a responsibility for helping people through.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Jason Seiden You know what it is? I'll preface this by saying I don't blame anybody. It's not an area. We haven't quite evolved to this yet. I think we're on the front edge. I think people such as yourself are on the cutting edge of bringing awareness to the business environment, of the importance of dealing with grief effectively. So, you know, we're we're getting out.   - Jason Seiden We're getting a handle on DNI. And I think in that same bucket. This is this is their belonging. When you start thinking about belonging as a as a goal for DNI. Well, belonging. If you're dealing with something that nobody else is dealing with, whatever that thing is, that's your your barrier to belonging. So hopefully as we kind of move in this area, the will all get better. But, you know, it's little things. It's.   - Jason Seiden First of all, texts and messages from people are super helpful. Doesn't take much. It's just like, hey, just checking in. How you doing? The gap is experienced when you don't get those more, when the only time you do get them is on the front end of a call where you're talking about other stuff. Because, you know, I would get that from my manager. Looking back, I think the only times there were check-ins were back at the top of a call.   - Jason Seiden I'd be like, hey, how you doing? OK, great. So here's like the five things that we've got to go through today, right?   - Liesel Mertes It feels like. Yeah. Just like, hey, are you are you ready? I'm with tasks because I certainly am.    - Jason Seiden And so in, you know, like, OK, great. And so it's it doesn't count, you know. And it creates this problem with the other person thinks, I'm checking in. And you're like, no, no. You're just making sure that I'm ready to go through your agenda. That's not a check-in.   - Jason Seiden That's like.   - Jason Seiden It's like, you know, is your you know. Can you can you mute the background noise? It's it's administrative at that point.   - Liesel Mertes Different than having, a specific time that is not encumbered by any other aspects of an agenda that would, you know, crowd it out. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes people say ill conceived, offensive, stupid things to people who are grieving.  What were some of the least helpful things that you heard? That you say, you'd say, you know, you can do all kinds of things, there's a margin of error, but don't do this. Let me do you a favor. Don't do this.   So I'll give you so I'll give you three answers. Number one, there's always some people who are close to you who are surprising in their lack of support And so I had two of those two people who just AWOL, like shockingly AWOL. Oh, my gosh. Right. So that's. The lack of saying something is saying something. There are, then there are people who make it about themselves.   - Jason Seiden So when I was getting married, I remember the people who were in the inner circle. Right. You're a close friend. We'll get married and you find that the venue was small and you'd call and be like, dude, totally get it wherever you need to see this, totally fine as long as I'm in the venue. You do what you gotta do because you're going to have some issues here with your seating chart so you can see it coming.   - Jason Seiden I mean, it was the bubble. People like the people who were barely they barely made the cut. They're the ones who would be pissed that they weren't in the bridal party, too. They're like, dude, this is so backwards. Same thing in reverse. You know, my best friend like that. You know, Lori and Mark and Susan putting that thing together. That is so incredible. The people who showed up and who were part of it.   - Jason Seiden Amazing. And then, you know, there are the like the one or two people who who are like I was just I was appreciative that they showed up. And then I find out later they were angry that I didn't include them in the planning. And I'm like, they are so far out. They had no idea; I had nothing to do with the planning. But this was all you have a group coming together for me, like this wasn't me orchestrating.   - Jason Seiden I wasn't using Elle to. This is happening in support of her.   - Jason Seiden Right. And so that that's been that's been disappointing. You know, again, there's nothing that gets said. You just hear about that stuff sort of second hand. Right.   - Jason Seiden Then then the third part is just people who don't know what to say and you know, and they try. And I actually appreciate these people. It's it's hard for everybody. I can't tell you how many people asked me, how are you feeling today? And I'm like, you know what?   - Jason Seiden Good. Right. OK. Awesome. Like you went digging. You found the Sheryl Sandberg Plan B. Quote. And Granny read the headline and you're giving that to me. When you start getting the same question over and over again, it's it's hard. You know, I like you. You wish people would kind of real deeper or maybe find another avenue or, you know, kind of go, OK. But everybody else is saying this. So can I find the next thing?   - Jason Seiden Can I can I have the conversation to the second sentence? And so I don't want to. I want to discourage people cause it's so important to get started. I think it's just also really important to be thoughtful and to not stop at the first perceived solution. So it's not that those people said anything bad, it's that the ones who go beyond stand out that much more.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that I'm struck. So I am reading there has been a book that that has just been published. I think it's it's called Meaning, The Sixth Stage of Grief. I'm going to check that for sure. But it's, it's a researcher who had worked with the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Foundation and after the death of his son said, you know, I feel like although these five stages that were described, they're not linear. They were never meant to be that way.   - Liesel Mertes But that the fact that an important stage for a number of people is actually the meaning that they are able to make in the aftermath of loss. Not that we. And he says there's a diversity of ways that can be another. The death in and of itself is meaningful. But there are different ways of making meaning from this and how the people who live beyond that integrate a loss or grief into their lives   - Jason Seiden Kessler.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. Yes. Have you read his book?   - Jason Seiden I have not read it yet. It's on the list.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I've heard him on an interview.   - Liesel Mertes It's I've appreciated it so far. It strikes me that making meaning has been an important aspect for you. Tell me what making meaning has looked like for you.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, it's some. I hadn't really thought about it until I kind of heard the concept and realized, yes. This is true. Life is really random. Right. So here's, here's something that that death does. It brings a finality to a relationship that cannot be undone. And it leaves you, you know, it's like the other side of the game. A tug of war drops the rope and you're just and you're left in this you're flying backwards stage.   - Jason Seiden Except there's no there's no hard ground to land on. There is no other person to laugh that they let go of the rope like you are now potentially flying forever in the wrong direction. And finding meaning is really for me. It's been around, you know planting my feet under me and just bringing that momentum to a stop and recognizing I can't honor Elle if I'm crumpled in a ball on the floor. I can't honor Elle if I'm in the past, you know, grieving her illness or thinking of her sick.   - Jason Seiden I can't honor Elle if I'm in the future, if I'm anxious about will this happen again and like this happen to somebody else and what if and what if I hurt somebody? And what if I'm responsible?   - Jason Seiden What if I did? None of that helps. And so for me, finding meaning has been around what Elle stand for. How can I honor her? What should I do? What can I do today that she would be proud of? And really, that's about grounding myself in the present and finding a way to conduct myself. That starts just getting through my day. Right. It's like, OK, I can't honor her if I'm crumpled on the floor.   - Jason Seiden So what does that mean? It means I have to choose to be happy. I have to choose to live like I have to choose to get up. I have to have to choose to try. So that looks like putting my feet on the floor. Getting out of bed, making the bed, making coffee, certain, basic stuff. And as and as I kind of got that underway, then it was like, OK, well, what am I doing?   - Jason Seiden What should I go do today? Well, I should be healthy. I should go for a run. You know, the CRPS attacked your legs. I'm going to go run. And I'm I'm I'm go use that part of my body that she couldn't. Because if I were you know, it's like if I want people to tell me that they're happy and they're not taking their families for granted, I have to assume she'd want the same. And so I'm going to do that.   - Jason Seiden And, and right then it cascades up from kind of the basic stuff to what am I doing, like, on a higher level and my leaving the world a better place. Am I taking care of the people around me? But at the end of the day, finding meaning has been around grounding myself in the present so that I can honor her in a way that also allows me to move forward.   - Liesel Mertes I think that there are some people who would hear something like that, you know, they would this, Elle want me to live fully and be happy and I'm purposing to do that, that for some people that can morph into, I'm, I'm just not going to think about these unpleasant feelings anymore. When they come up, it could be its own form of avoidance and pushing those things away. How do you, how do you live into that meaning without just ignoring the painful feelings that can crop up unexpectedly?   - Liesel Mertes How do you still acknowledge and honor some of that sadness and emotion?   - Jason Seiden Easier said than done. I can't say that I do that perfectly. This is, this is not a topic that I speak easily about and I actually don't speak a lot about because it is hard to step into those feelings without kind of getting lost. But.   - Jason Seiden I think. For me. If I'm totally candid there are parts of it that could feel sacrilegious. There are times where moving forward actually feels like it's gonna be disrespectful like that, the respectful thing to do would be to sit and cry and grieve and be a mess and that the way to honor her would be show her how important she was by showing her how incapable I am of moving forward without her.   - Jason Seiden And at those moments, it's a hard choice and the hard choice is to remember, we are all individual people on this planet and me doing that, me, quote unquote, honoring her in that way would be to lose two lives. So that doesn't work.   - Jason Seiden And then you get. Right. So that's, that's sort of one path. And so I just I allowed the emotions and the thoughts to kind of carry me to get to that point. And I'm like, OK, I can't do this.   - Jason Seiden It doesn't work. So even though the other side, even though moving forward doesn't feel right, I just proved to myself that sitting here in a bar wallowing doesn't work. So I'm going to go make that choice. That doesn't feel right, not because I'm drawn to it, but because I am repelled by this other thing.   - Jason Seiden And then, and then there's another part too, which is there's a piece of it that's like, well, to honor her feels like picking up her torch. And carrying that and becoming the social worker, becoming her, doing the things that. And I run into the same problem. We're different people. He, you know, I can support her causes and I am. But I'm I'm taking my time because, this happened to me. It could very easily be the thing that defines me.   - Jason Seiden And I've spent my entire life to defining myself to be something else. I'm not ready to just let this become the thing. You know, there's the guy lost. That's not who I am. What I want to be is the guy who shows people how to continue to be themselves. Even when something like this happens.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah.   - Jason Seiden And so, you know, so there's a it's it's hard, you know. What does it look like and how does it feel? Sometimes it feels sacrilegious. Other times it feels like I get selfish.   - Liesel Mertes We are drawing near the close of our time. But I'm struck in that last thing you said, you know, you are you are not just a man who has had his daughter die.   - Liesel Mertes What are some interesting things that you like about yourself that make you you?   - Jason Seiden You know, it's a surprisingly hard question.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes it can be. I have a friend who would do that to people on their birthdays. He would be like, you need to tell all of us three things you like about yourself. I felt kind of awkward.   - Jason Seiden I live out loud. I, I, I make my mistakes. My my dad used to say, my dad says, own your mistakes. They're the only things other than your name that other people won't try and take credit for.   - Liesel Mertes And it's a great line.   - Jason Seiden It is. And in this day and age of of digital piracy, your name's not even safe. So, like, literally, my mistakes are the only things I can. So I make them and I do my best to make new ones all the time. I try not to repeat. So I live my life. I learn. I still am learning. I am still open to learn. I don't.   - Jason Seiden I know what I know. And I. I've earned my gray hair once, I don't have to earn it twice like I know when I'm in a situation where I actually have an expertise, but I am well aware that it's a great big world. And, you know, I have like, this tiny speck of knowledge within it.   - Jason Seiden So, I appreciate the fact that at my age I can still look at the world with a certain amount of wonder and to sort of get lost in it and want to know how things work.   - Jason Seiden And. I. You know, I and I'm stronger than I realized. I have a certain amount of resiliency that I'm. This has not been an easy journey, but I'm I'm surrounded by people in this club that I don't want to be in.  But,  those of us who are able to persevere and make something positive of it. I, I see the people who aren't able to do that. And I can I can recognize that I'm I mean, about I have something to offer because the boat I mean, it's the boat of people who are able to move forward. And I'm proud of that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections from my conversation with Jason.   Even if you aren’t sure of what to do or say, move towards people in their grief.In his words, “Live your life, make the damn mistake,”.  You won’t be perfect and you don’t have to be but your support matters. If you are in a workplace setting with a parent that has lost a child, especially as a manager, make time to actually check-in with them, not just as an entrée to a meeting, ticking a box so you can get on with an agenda item.This might mean scheduling a call or a meeting that isn’t about a to-do list but only about hearing from them about their how they are doing.  Navigating life after the loss of a child is hard.Jason expresses the complex, internal challenge of moving forward, of not letting himself be singularly defined by Elle’s death.  Sometimes it can feel sacrilegious or selfish as he leans into life beyond his daughter, struggling to be and become himself even after tragedy.  If you are struggling in this journey, perhaps you find camaraderie in Jason’s reflections.  And if you know someone who has lost a child, perhaps this gives you additional insight.     OUTRO

- Fred Brown That was difficult. And that the kind of person I am or what people expect from me is to not flinch in the face of adversity. I could never grieve. In a meaningful way. And I've never grieved in a meaningful way because. The role I typically play in this society that I live in is the caretaker provider and supporter. So. You know, I remember one time I got emotional and people looked at me and it was like. Their whole construct of strength was like in question for years and years and years. I just held onto OK. You can't cry. You can't be emotional. You got to hold. People are counting on you to lead in this moment of crisis.   INTRO   I have such an engaging, important episode for you today.  My guest is Fred Brown, the CEO of the Forbes Fund.  More on the Forbes Fund in just a little bit.  Fred ushers us into his experience as a Black man in America, delving into his personal losses, reflecting on the murder of George Floyd, and talking about the head trip of anti-black racism that caused him to question himself over the years as he advocated for meaningful, systemic change.  His story is compelling and immediate and important.  And I will introduce you more fully to Fred in a moment.    But first, I’d like to thank our two sponsors.  First is Fullstack PEO.  FullStack PEO is an employee benefits provider for entrepreneurs and small business owners.  In these uncertain times, benefits provide a sense of security for your people.  Let the talented staff at FullStack take care of benefits so you can grow your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  With a range of trainings, keynotes, and online options, Handle with Care consulting empowers you to come alongside your people with empathy with they experience disruptive life events.   Now, back to the interview and Fred Brown.  Fred lives in Pittsburgh and has six children.       - Fred Brown My oldest sons. The engineer works for Caterpillar. He lives in Kansas. My next oldest son is 18. He's headed off to college. My next oldest son is 16. He's at home with us. My 18 year old is at home with us currently. I have a 13 year old daughter, my six year old daughter, and my four year old daughter and my wife. And so the seven of us. In the house all the time.   - Liesel Mertes We covered that full house and lots of opportunities for, I'm sure, all kinds of interactions. I am. I said I said to my husband recently, I said, thankfully, you know, I haven't wanted to divorce you. As a result of this, I have thought about if I could possibly divorce my children because there's so much always going on. So I hear you in that.   - Liesel Mertes Are you a man that has space for any hobbies or when you are not working? How do you like to fill your time?   - Fred Brown I like to fill my time of exercising. I used to like to fill my time reading. What with? Five kids in the house and school. You know, five different schools or three different school systems. That's difficult. Have family night every Friday. So, we do a family activity. We like to go camping before COVID. We used to like to go out every now and do some things. But since COVID, we've really begun to have deeper dialogue about race issues, about being an entrepreneur.   - Fred Brown And so, my hobby, the thing I love to do pre COVID is, I have a very stressful job, so I need to let my energy flow in a way it is positive. So, I like to work out. Yeah. And yeah, I like to work out a lot. I used to be ranked 13 for the country as a proud power lifter many moons ago and about 40, 45 pounds that goes with it.   In addition to being a self-described “gym-rat” who enjoys outlifting men half his age, Fred is the CEO of the Forbes Fund, a 37 year old institution that comes alongside struggling non-profits.    - Fred Brown When I ascended to the role of president CEO of the Forbes Funds in 2018, I immediately began to explore like the intersection of how can we promote the great aspects of organization is honor our history of being a supportive organization.   - Fred Brown Look at the role of technology and create a pivot that looks at what is emerging in the belly needs in this sector. And so we began to look at this notion of systems design and ecosystems development taken into account at every community, had its own typography, its own unique DNA. And then we don't want a cookie cutter approaches,   - Fred Brown We work with about a thousand non-profit organizations a year. There's about 20, several hundred in our area. And in southwestern P.A., there's over 80, 500 nonprofits.   The Forbes Fund has a strong team and are doing innovative things like funding catalytic community cohort, C3, that utilizes collective genius and mentoring relationships.  They have also just launched the Forbes Funds University in partnerships with local institutions that provide non-profit leaders with credit and continuing education opportunities.    Earlier that day, he was offering his expertise and leadership in a call   - Fred Brown And these kind of pivots have created phenomenal exchanges between philanthropy, between non-profit sector universities, community stakeholders and businesses. And I'm just excited about this stuff. I'm in the middle. And I just wish I was able to do more things.   - Fred Brown I yesterday, we were on a call with a group that wants to start a gardening program. And this is where being a thought partner is part of a role we play. So, we started talking about institutional racism. And they started to talk about the historical trends in their community. And we said, well, what would the metaphor be for digging up the earth and planting and see and nurturing a foster new growth of plants to be eaten and used by the community?   - Fred Brown Well, what would the metaphor be that you can rebirth a community? Put your hands in the soil? There's a cathartic experience there that could address racism, social injustices.   It is a powerful metaphor.  And as you have already heard, Fred is a savvy, smart practitioner who cares about the holistic person and the toll that racism is taking on the bodies of Black and Brown Americans.    - Fred Brown As people of color manage, we stay here for a while, for over two hundred years. There's an illusion that we're OK. And even in our own way, we convey that we're OK. But the data says other data says although we're managing, we have on average an eight year lifecycle difference we have financially we made. I think 70 cents on the dollar compared to our white counterparts.   - Fred Brown And we carry a burden of comorbidity issues, which has an aggravated impact on diseases and viruses like COVID, which in many cities we have three times the death rate as our white counterparts. And so although we might be managing the burden of being black in America is not without a cost.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, yeah, I am. There's an incredibly impactful book that I've read with and I've read now a couple of times within the last five years by Dr Bessel van der Klerk. It's called The Body Keeps the Score, and it's all about trauma and embodied trauma and just the fact that it shows up in our physical health. And it's been something that I've pondered in my own journey. And as I over the last couple of months have extended my imagination into more of those data points, whether that is, you know, like the neonatal care and pregnancy complications.   - Liesel Mertes And just regardless of, you know, education level or economic level, that there's so much lower, you know, for black Americans.   - Liesel Mertes And to think like, yes, that's because the body is literally like holding on to generations of absorbed trauma. And just as I as I avail myself to listen to more stories and try to think like, what would it feel like if when I sent my 10 year old son out bike riding, that I was just worried about his, his safety all the time because of how he looks, you know, like I can't even extend to imagine that. But I, I don't I, I don't understand.   - Liesel Mertes But I'm hearing differently being like. Yeah, what a horrible toll on your body.   - Fred Brown You know, I think that many of us. We arrive at a point in our existence where we just accept what is. And we. We learn how to navigate that. How can you accept being killed? Over possibly a fake 20 dollar bill or selling single cigarettes or. Sitting in your car and reaching for your license is very different. You know, when I talk to other people and they never worry about these things, they don't ever have to tell their kids the story.   - Fred Brown OK, do this when the police pull you over and you're going to get pulled over. Do this in the store when the police are a private detective, ask you, what are you looking for? Do this when you drive into community. And his gaited. Is there is this these next level? Requirements that you have to educate your kid on. You know, they're really. It's common place for us. But this is not natural, mother, other people are not doing that.   - Fred Brown So I think there's an extra burden both on the child. You know, my four year old. I took her my daughter would go bike riding every night are my six and my four year old. So we're all riding last night. And we're eating some French fries and corn and, you know, just took a break from writing. And some people came up that I know and they came to talk to me and she said my four year old said, white people kill black people.   - Fred Brown She's four. Yeah, her external expression that people know is that they're going to kill me or they go kill somebody black. And I said, where'd you get that from? She said, "that's what they said on the news."   - Fred Brown How did you. I don't know. I don't know. That's difficult. But, you know, I have to sleep on that.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, there, you know. I there are that you wish that you could say it was like a boogie man, like, no, that wouldn't happen to you. Like, no, you're safe. Like we want to extend to our children a sense of. There's so much we do as adults to protect them.   - Liesel Mertes And there are the is that we can't take away, you know, and. I can't imagine in this room what that's like. You know, as a parent in. In my own experience, there's, you know, my, my children have had a sibling die. And I would love like they have a really real sense of like will another one of my brothers or sisters die. And I'd love to be like, no, that will never happen.   - Liesel Mertes But that wouldn't be true. Like, that could happen. And I can't imagine to extend that to just meta like deeply a sense of, that is a possibility. And that kind of way.   - Liesel Mertes You've as we mentioned at the top of the interview, you've you've had, your father's died within the last three weeks.   - Liesel Mertes You lead an organization that is really attuned to the needs of your community. I imagine that watching these events on the news also connects to, like your own personal experience of life as a man in a black body. What has it? What is what is it occasioned? What is that felt like for you to live the last three weeks?   - Fred Brown That's a heavy question. Not that it's not real. So in 1996. I began to do some social justice and environmental justice work, and at that time a young black man was killed in Brentwood, Brentwood. P.A. as a result of a truck traffic stop. Named Jonny Gammage.   - Fred Brown And so I helped organize the city. The black community around protesting, peaceful, protesting, marching, demanding more laws to protect citizens and accountability for police. And so I thought, OK, we did that work. We made some progress. Not a lot, but somewhere in my psyche, I thought, OK, that was done. And I'm onto the next thing.   - Fred Brown The next thing was I began to ramp up my work as a probation officer and I buried about 50 plus kids from gang violence during that same period and so I had gotten accustomed to go into funerals and and such.   - Fred Brown And 2001, when I was in graduate school working on my PTSD in a six month period, I had six family members and friends there. My grandmother, my uncle, two cousins, my best friend's mother and a friend. And it it became a burden.   - Fred Brown And I told somebody in an interview one time, I feel like I'm walking around a coffin on my back, literally. So, you know, I realize I'm getting crispy burnt out in this work with kids. And I think they're so important that I don't want to stop the work. So I continue to do the work and I continue to rise up in the system.   - Fred Brown So my thought process and theory changes if I get high enough in the system. I can promote systems change, which will alter these kids lives.   - Fred Brown So I do that now, figure out as I get up, work into the system. The system has no desire to change. It has no desire to be different. It has no desire to meet people way of way.   - Liesel Mertes And so can you tell me a little bit more about that? I feel like that is a powerful statement that I would love for you to unpack a little bit more. What were you observing?   - Fred Brown I was observing that there is a level of institutional racism within the system that perpetuates the need for actors to be arrested for not have a resolution to common problems, i.e., a kid could not get off her probation unless they paid their restitution. A kid couldn't get restitution paid for in a job because they were on probation. And so, it was these kind of vicious cycle is where you looked at the common person, what they just they just need to get a job and then they can get off a restitution.   - Fred Brown Well, how does that work? A kid with a juvenile record with a record who's supporting that? And then if the kid is a juvenile, you've got to get special permission to work. You know, it's just it's just a burden and it creates a condition where there's just a vicious cycle. And then you see that the cycle trends upward as these kids who can't break the cycle as juveniles become adult offended, they just continue to recidivate. And you see very clearly there were point points of departure where people could have did something different.   - Fred Brown And they, they didn't or couldn't. And, you know, I remember another experience when I worked on South and Charlotte. And this was probably most difficult job I've ever had is a PP social worker, a permanency planning social worker. And basically, in short, you determine whether if we came to your house and your husband and God forbid, got into fisticuffs or fight or whatever, and there was some concern about the kids, we might remove the kids.   - Fred Brown You guys sort that out. Or if you put your hands on a K is doing a fisticuffs and that kind of stuff. And so we kind of determine whether or not people got their kids back. And what I noticed in that system was middle class people fared better than everyday low income people.   - Fred Brown Training might be scheduled for you to go to five classes on parent engagement, behavior modification, anger control. You know any of these? No classes. The classes were usually offered dawn workday. So a person that is middle class or has a job, the salary. They can go to their boss or be the boss or just say, hey, I'm going out. I'll be back at this time. No questions. But an hourly worker had to go get permission from your supervisor to miss work.   - Fred Brown And inevitably, the supervisors will say, hey, if you know I you're going to get fired.   - Fred Brown I don't know about whatever you're talking about because at the same time, you're not trying to tell somebody, hey, I got go to these classes to get my kids back. Right. There is a certain level of discretion you're trying to to manifest just for your personal well-being. And so I just saw. Case after case where poor people were get were not getting the same benefit.   - Fred Brown And I took this concern to management. My supervisor told me to take it to higher levels of management. And I talk to the manager, the highest level of management. That's a set of choices because I had been doing this work for. 20 something years, and I knew about nontraditional service provider systems, social service networks and such. And I presented models to this director that maybe there's a way that we can mitigate the risk. And the director looked at me and said, why would we do that? And I said, because there's a disproportionate impact occurring to certain families based upon socio economic strata, which is having an adverse effect on their ability to get their kids back.   - Fred Brown And the highest ranking person in the institution said, we're not going to do that. I'm not interested. And I just in that moment, something that in me about humanity, something dad and me about, well, maybe they didn't understand. Maybe I wasn't a good communicator. Maybe. I didn't do a good job of explaining what I was talking about. So I went back and talked to other people. They were like, no, you were very clear, you know.   - Fred Brown And the thing that broke me was broke my spirit was to have a grown man come to your office and start crying and said you would destroy my family and you said you were going to help me. There's nothing you've done to help me. The services you need me to attend don't work on my for my hours. The restraints you have on me, Sam Martel, don't work for my hours. And so there was just a series of unparalleled opportunities. Supported all families. And it just got me to start thinking about, well, who writes these policies? It's not poor people.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and I hear I hear in that even like just to interject before we get you for the head trip, also that systemic institutionalized. Yeah, antiblack racism is in some ways in that, like you, you had to come away and think wasn't my fault. Like, did I not explain myself well enough like that? It turned inward like that.   - Fred Brown Like, well, maybe I didn't do a good enough job when really it gets back to. Like, no, we we purposefully want to keep it this way, whether by design or just general apathy. Because it doesn't matter enough. So yeah, I imagine that’s the nuance of what it does. The self questioning. What causes you to have somewhat of a psychosis about? Are you in it? Are you in the Twilight Zone?   - Fred Brown Are the things you're suggesting just so unrealistic? Or is there a, is there a strategy here that intends to keep people in the places that they're in and you don't want to believe that because you're working on the side of justice.   - Fred Brown You're working on the side of equity. You're working on a side of this notion. And I struggle with this when I was a probation officer. And I'm going back now. I'm more forward and I'm going back with, you know, as I became more a flaw with the court system and working with judges and dealing with a lot of gang stuff and not really understanding the plight of the state of these kids and their neurological pathways for their criminal thinking errors.   - Fred Brown And just you start understanding the science of this work, the human aspect of the work, the economics of the work, the poverty community, social structures. It's just there's a plethora of things that contribute to it. But when you start to peel it back. And you realize that you like doing this work because you actually think you can make a difference. And there's always a few people who make it like they, they create. And I call this the illusion of progress.   - Fred Brown Right. Just always has to be somebody that makes it, because if nobody ever made it, two people would stop having hope that there's a possibility to change. So I think the system allows for certain few people to make it. And I will say and those people do what they need to do to get through. All right. But over all, when you look at the preponderance of people who go through the system, the statistics on who's successful in it is not high, as you have to start wonder.   - Fred Brown Like, why is that? Why if our goal is to restore humanity and people, why do we say after somebody serves time for an offense? That they're a felon. But they did their time. Why are we now labeling them? And we know that that label is going to discredit their ability to have any measure of response and opportunity back in society. And now that label for act, they did time for which Anan's. I mean, it's like.   - Fred Brown If you put you and I have kids, if we put our kids on punishment. And at the end of the punishment, you're still seen as being criminal. How does that work like you. Did your punishment? OK, let's start over. You got a clean slate. Mommy, daddy ain't mad at you no more. But here's what you need to be aware of, if that happens again, the punishment is going to be more severe or whatever that is right.   - Fred Brown But there is a point where a person is held accountable and then they should be allowed to restore their humanity. And get a fresh, strong start. They should be able to. Acknowledge their wrongdoings, come to grips with that and decide how they can move forward. Well, the first thing they have to do is reestablish yourselves economically to take care of ourselves. And that's a burden that they can't even get a job and housing. Yeah, then we are by nature.   - Fred Brown Knowingly, willingly, intentionally creating a dynamic that people are born recidivate. You're not giving them a chance to. Return to society, healthy and whole. You ask me to run a society where they sped up a race with one leg and with the title where you hit X.   - Fred Brown Yeah. And I just you just have to wonder, like. Nothing's changed since we've been putting people in jail and per capita, we have the house arrest rate and incarceration rate in a world. Yeah, it's an interesting, you know,   - Liesel Mertes Even, even just to take it to the really personal lived like level. You give the example with parenting. You know, if I have a child who lives and I punish them for lying, but then what it would it would be if I just you know, I was like, well, this is Ada the liar for the rest of her life. Why just that totalizing identity then to take on, you know, of every time I introduced her? This is Ada. She's a liar, you know. Yeah.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes So we talk about disruptive life events on the Handle with Care podcast and the more interviews that I get to do and just in my work as a consultant. Grief is always localized within a particular community and that community is shaped by by family habits. You know, some people it's like grief is very taboo. You know, we keep a stiff upper lip. It's also shaped by, you know, by aspects of just communal norms.   - Liesel Mertes I can think of Karen, who she is, a Chinese American, and she talked about walking through her sister's suicide and like the very entrenched taboos of a Chinese, specifically a Chinese American culture and what that allowed her to do or didn't allow her to do. And so, this sort of specificity to community in dealing with hard things. And it's always like its own burden to ask someone to speak for an entire community. But I'd love to hear just from your personal experience, as you talked about, you know this.   - Liesel Mertes I think you use an evocative term. It when when the six people die that you were getting, it was   - Fred Brown Like walkin' around with a coffin on my back.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yeah. And that you you just were lacking resilience. What was it like. What. What did your community offer you in ways or. First, let me just start with tell me more about what it was like to be walking around with a coffin on your back.   - Fred Brown That was difficult. And that the kind of person I am or what people expect from me is to not flinch in the face of adversity. I could never grieve. In a meaningful way. And I've never grieved in a meaningful way because. The role I typically play in this society that I live in is the caretaker provider and supporter. So. You know, I remember one time I got emotional and people looked at me and it was like. Their whole construct of strength was like in question for years and years and years.   - Fred Brown I just held onto OK. You can't cry. You can't be emotional. You got old. People are counting on you to lead in this moment of crisis. You're a leader. And so for years, I just. So I've got to leave. You know, when I was in graduate school and all of those deaths happened. I remember going to talk to people. And somebody asked me, why are you still in school? Why? What are you trying to prove?   - Fred Brown Like, want to go take care of your family? And deep inside my thinking and being was, I've never quit, so I can't quit now like I've gotten this far. And a PhD program, I'm from the hood. Nobody thought I would be here. Me quitting is just that's not an option. As I started to talk more more to people, what I would like has taken a toll on you. Is it worth it? Like, what are you having to prove?   - Fred Brown And a friend of mine is a mentor of mine. I say that's a piece of paper. The work that you do is transformational. You don't need a piece of paper to be transformational. And what what you said,   - Liesel Mertes I want to I want to just go back for a moment, because that is really interesting to me that that sense of where you'd come from, like you come from the hood you'd come so far. Was it. Was it.   - Liesel Mertes Was there an element that you felt of like a fear of like if I stop pushing, I might not keep going? Or like. Was that was that given to you by other people in your community who had celebrated how far you come? Did you feel like you were held up as something that you didn't have space for that? Tell me.   - Fred Brown Right. I would say that nobody told me I couldn't quit or nobody said if you quit your this or that. But. I'm celebrating. Whether I like that or not, people see me as somebody who's navigated the streets and made it. And so. Good, bad or indifferent? Live with that identification. This has driven me to push beyond my my bounds and understanding of my capacity.   - Fred Brown And, you know, one of the things I told the doctoral program, you know, because I was working on a degree and I was my dissertation was focused on Afro centricity as a theory of change.   - Fred Brown And I cut a lot of flack for taking up that mantle. But that was the origins of my existence. And so, I wanted to show that ethnocentricity was indeed a universal practice that could be applied across multiple ethnic groups and be successful. And I was actually doing that in a successful way.   - Fred Brown But want to get the piece of paper to say Dr. Brown wrote this book and he said this and that. And so, you know, the community was counting on me every time I went in.   - Fred Brown Some places there's like there go, he's going to be a doctor. That's Dr. Brown. So there was just this. And it wasn't intentional, but there was pressure like, you can't fail. People are counting on you. You will be the first doctor to ever live on this street. You know, people know that. And you give back and you're not protected. You're not going to move out and leave us.   - Fred Brown And so there was this symbiotic relationship with the community that I felt I had to uphold. And the reason that I saw myself even being capable of being in a PhD program was nothing added. But it was everything, the community important to me.   - Fred Brown So I never saw my experience in school as my experience. I saw it as the community's experience. And I was just a vessel of theirs. And so that that was very difficult that I use. The word broke me and I'll know if that's the right word. It humbled me, but it hurt. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned that mentor who is saying that he saw a tool that was taking on you. Were you seeing that as well?   - Fred Brown I thought I knew it was a toll, but as a man who's a power lifter and who has this illusion that everybody thinks I'm in, you know, I shouldn't be bothered by stuff and I've taken on taking on that persona. I just saw it as another test. Like it was just like, OK, you've got to pass this test.   - Fred Brown You have to have a story to tell people like when this happened, this is how you did it. Like people are looking to you forces for solutions in the face of adversity. So adversity is part of your eco system. So this is no different. So why are you getting personal and breaking down? And, you know, why are you hurt? And, you know, and I was like. I've never. Was able to really. Deal with that.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. Yeah. I am I'm struck that there is a certain distrust that white majority culture has towards strong emotions, specifically from black men and women. You know, I feel like you're so often labeled like this is this is an angry black man or angry black woman. And just that that big emotions are something that, you know, the majority culture doesn't really want to see and doesn't want to deal with. And that perhaps that that could also, you know, there could be a certain expectation as it relates to other strong emotions like grief or sadness.   - Liesel Mertes Did you feel any aspect of, you know, there's like community expectation, your strength, but just of you can't have too strong of an emotion like that that wouldn't be professional or possible? Was that any part of an expectation at all that you felt?   - Fred Brown I felt. Yeah, I felt like. I did show this pressure that I had to have equilibrium. I felt that. If I lost it, then that would signal to other people, it's OK to act like that and so that.   - Fred Brown I was always in this place that I was trying to get white America to realize that everybody is black, is not all drugs a gang member just making babies and not taking care of. And the greatest challenge that most black men is my size at that time. And intellect is you threaten white people when you walk in a room and you ask the intelligent question, especially one they don't anticipate. And so if I became passionate about things in particular around the death of black kids and talking to people, I was the angry black man.   - Fred Brown If I started asking too many questions, I was trying to be smarter than everybody else. So there was always this. Notion. Like, how did you create balance in the face of. The rhetoric that's not real. But. Is pervasive and dominant culture of pedagogy. This is very similar to what's going on now with many of my friends and colleagues.   - Fred Brown Now, as a result of seeing George Floyd's murder on TV and seeing the face of the actor not being moved, not having any compassion. Now people are like, OK, I get it. And the struggle that we have is people of color who are friends with those individuals is once again, was I not telling my story. Clear enough? Was I not a good communicator? Did you not hear me say just buried over 50 caged like is these just things is rolling off my mouth. It off my tongue to interpret subconsciously as not being real tangible. That that like.   - Liesel Mertes Man, if you could see my face, that just that's breathtaking. That. Of course, that feels like just one more iteration of feelings that you've had through the years. Yeah, that's powerful. It's I is a hard position right now.   - Liesel Mertes When I know I feel like, you know, tap. It happens a lot. People want to go and say, like, teach me, teach me about racism or or things like that. So not to not to ask you for, like, the history of it.   - Liesel Mertes You know, as, as we discuss empathy on the podcast, if there was something that you could just insert into the consciousness of white Americans as it relates to empathy for you as a black man right now, what would you want them to understand differently?   - Fred Brown That's a great question. I think one of the things I would want. Is. For them to see. Me and other black men and women are just as human as.   - Fred Brown As people were families, that. Really want the same things they want. We want the same kinds of attributes. We want the same acknowledgements. We want all of those things. And, you know, we we want a good space.     - Fred Brown Because I have to believe that the people I'm cool with that call me and ask me, you know, I was talking to somebody else today and they say, did you get the call?   - Fred Brown And as black people, we know what that means. Like, whenever something tragic happens, our white friends call us and say, and I feel so bad. I want it. And we don't think there's nothing wrong with that.   - Fred Brown But then people say, what can I do? And it's like, well, did you not see? Or hear me for 35 years complaining about this. Did you not, like hear me say I buried his killers, just came from a funeral?   - Fred Brown I had a rough week, you know, with a judge. Like, I got pulled over and it's like, so when I told you I got pulled over and I didn't do anything. Agent in the back of your mouth, were you thinking? Yeah, you probably do somewhere you wouldn't get got pulled over. And so you got upset. So it just makes you caucus. Now that. When you're talking to your friends or they. Listening or did they hear you?   - Liesel Mertes Right. Know, I hear that. I'd like to just because I know you have to go. When you were going through this period of loss or even as you're grieving now, two questions.   - Liesel Mertes First, I'd love to know what people did that made you feel supported. And then lots of times people do stupid stuff when they're trying to comfort. That actually doesn't hit the marks I want. I would love to know what made you feel supported and what made you feel totally missed, that you'd say don't do this stuff, It's just bad.   - Fred Brown I felt supported, especially in the last three weeks by my board or my team. And my special assistant cleared my schedule, not telling people particulars, but just saying he's out. He's not available. And then stepping into the role of all the things I do, a lot of people don't know I do. And that. Missing a beat. Just stepping into it and managing that.   - Fred Brown I think the second thing that was rewarding was my colleagues I work with around the country in the world to send flowers and plants or plants, not flowers, plants and cards.   - Fred Brown And I haven't read all the cards and just know people said, I want to talk to you, not send you a card or text you. And then in an. Kidding, having this happen while the George Floyd case occur. There's been a lot of people I work with having epiphanies about. I really wasn't listening to you. I really couldn't hear you. So, it's a watershed moment. I think the thing that. This is problematic.   - Fred Brown And I don't think this is anything anybody's done to me as much as it's something I've done to myself, which is I had this process in my mind and I could just turn it back on my creativity. So, I have four outstanding things I told people I was going to get to.   - Fred Brown Two weeks ago. I just have not had the mental space to do it. And it's not. And this and people are not. Not expecting it. They are expecting the innovation.   - Fred Brown And I'm so used to just coming through as I've done. Year over year in the past, where even in the face of adversity, actually some of these things make me dig deeper into. I need to answer. I need to answer. In this particular case, I'm tapped out.   - Fred Brown I'll have to answer a personal loss triggering another black man being a martyr in the work I did in 96 to now it just trigger a cascade of historical events and current events that are going harder is not going to resolve. And being innovative is not going to resolve.   - Fred Brown And so, I you know, and I'm inconsolable because I think I crown and said I'm not a outwardly cry, emotional guy set for when I'm angry. And so, because I walk into space and I'm in a meeting, I just facilitated a workshop.   - Fred Brown And people's work is perhaps this pass. And I thought he was off. And, you know, so I've been in what I would call high level of things. I didn't want to not I didn't want to fall apart or not move forward.   - Fred Brown And I knew people expected me to be there. So, I was there, but I was just there and. And body, not by spirit or soul. And, you know, interesting enough, today, my board and my board meeting, you know, my board was like, we need you to take a break.   - Fred Brown And it was interesting because one of my board members say we need you back at 150 to 200 percent. Like you always been not 100. Right. So, my board already is acknowledging you don't function at 100 percent. Yeah. You function at a 150 and 200 percent. And so, whatever you need to do to take a break, that's what we need back. We don't need this guy limping in at 100 percent because that's not who you are. And so that was compelling today to hear my board say to.   - Fred Brown And just acknowledge, like, dude, this is how you roll. Like, this is what he brought to the table. And so I'm conflicted with. How sustainable is that and. Is that what I need right now and cannot allow myself to grieve? And what does that look like? I don't know what that looks like. I know what I do when death occurs. I know what I do when tragedy occurs. I go to my office and that idea, I come up with solutions.   - Fred Brown And so, the next day people are like, well, what are we going to do? Would I say, here's, here's what I'm thinking. And peoples like, wow, that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. Are we going to do that? And everybody's like, yeah, we're gonna do it.   - Fred Brown And so, I'm just used to being able to turn it on. Hit the switch, go to another level. In this instance, there is no other level that I'm aware of. And it's not coming to me. I'm not having great insight. There's not a voice speaking to me. There's an emptiness that is compelling because the emptiness is in conflict with what's in my mind. Mm hmm, yeah. If that makes sense. Right on much swirling.   - Fred Brown Yeah, I'm. I'm able to write and create because of something that's in my heart disconnected to my mind that comes out to my ability to articulate that. But I realize in the void that exists exists now cannot conjure up, even though my intellectual thought process is driving solutions because my heart and soul have been eviscerating.   - Fred Brown I can't even grapple with the ideas not percolating to the tangible thoughts on paper. And I'm in this crazy because it's keeping me up all night, like I have these ideas, like I will do this and I would do that. I write it down to energy to to actually do the writing and to put everything together and create a serious change. It's not there. That's what I told my board. I say I'm not here. Like at an all my life I've been in all these places and doing all these things.   - Fred Brown I am not here right now and I have to acknowledge to my board because I have a responsibility to let you know that I am not all here. And. And at the same time, I'm not trying to sit up and say, I got a problem, like I need this, I need that, you know, because I want people to blaze. He fit, not fit to lead. You know, and so it's a conflict. Right.   - Fred Brown And you have to take time. And I haven't really taken time, like up almost every day. I was off, I did something, at least three things now compared to nine things.   - Fred Brown Three things is better, but still, right? Yeah, it's three things. It's work things. Right. You know, so like today I'm going from seven to nine.   - Fred Brown Yeah. All right. And no, nobody is thinking that's a lot. Or did he just have a tragedy? I think they think and that's just what he does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes That, you know, those are important questions and. What, what it reminds me of, like I you know, when my daughter died, one of the the hardest voices that I had to deal with was my own, like, inner judgment, because these things that had come so easily and naturally, the things that it was just like, you know, like water off a duck's back, like, of course, I could, you know, execute on these projects and I'm in a graduate program and do all of it easily.   - Liesel Mertes Like all of those things were hard and grinding. And it was this sense of like, I don't even like myself that much if I can't, like, produce the way that I. And there was that own sense of, like myself judgment that was really hard to reckon with. And, you know, there is just like somewhat similarly, I'm a person who I render myself in words and actions. And to feel like that capacity, which was like my most natural language of expression, just was like.   - Liesel Mertes I had to struggle so much for that, and it was like, if I can't like, if I can't render myself that way. In this thing that matters so much like it was a sense of intense dislocation with myself. There was really heavy.   - Fred Brown So let me tell you, was heavier ball, which you just said is. You said this twice on this call. And I heard it the second time about your daughter. And that's an example of.   - Fred Brown I heard you, but I wasn't listening. And I'm struck by even more. Oh. Lack of. Acknowledgement that our hurting. So, let me first say my heart goes out to you as a parent for that loss. My heart goes out to you as a mother for the loss. My heart goes out to you as a human being. Who has to bury their child? Yes, the unnatural consequence. And I'm so unfortunately aware of that because of the many kids that I had to.   - Fred Brown Be a part of their transition. And listening to you and and understanding now. I think why you do this show. Is incredibly moving and. Courageous to do this over and over again when every time you as these deep penetrating questions, it's a reflection of your own experience with your own child. Like deep. Somebody to me, that's how I interpret that. Like how? And you know, I will tell you this. I have a litany of things to do that are canceled, but this was not one of them.   - Fred Brown I needed to be on here because I needed to talk. Right. No matter what it was, I need to be able to talk without an expectation, I had to do something right.   - Fred Brown I need to get my emotional content out in some form or fashion. What I'll say. OK, I'll get this proposal to you by tomorrow or so, because I know I know for a fact my team was wonder why I had this call. Like like why you to have this call with all this stuff going on. And I couldn't explain to to them that I needed this. I need this for me, I need to have some emotional exchange with someone that's not kov.   - Fred Brown It does not. George does not. Other is slight. I don't even know what it would be about. But, you know, depending on how you brought the story to life, I just need to be able to talk. From an unbiased perspective, without expectations and be authentic and courageous and listen intently. So thank you. Thank you for being patient with me. Even getting this set up. And I think you're a fantastic interviewer. You're very fluid and nonintrusive.   - Liesel Mertes Well, thank you, I I receive all of that wholeheartedly. And I can see even that that is a kindness of you even to, you know, I, I, I. It touches my heart that you would pause and say that because you're a man in a lot of his own intense moments. So, thank you for that gift of empathy, May I ask. Let me just the exchange names my daughter's name who died was Mercy Joan Mertes. What was the name of your father?   - Fred Brown My father's name is this transition is James Moler. It's a powerful thing to also know the names of someone is. Mercy,   - Liesel Mertes Mercy. Yeah, it was when we were we were praying and hoping for. Yeah. And even as I think of of calls for mercy and justice, she, she gets to be before me as something not yet actualized,   [01:11:55.930] - Fred Brown but beautiful. So. Wow. Powerful. Great story.   [01:12:07.300] - Liesel Mertes Thank you.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Fred Systemic racism in America is real, insidious, and persistent.Fred talked about personal grief over the state of things, the way that systems, whether that was the probation system or family reunification system, were established and maintained in ways that hurt lower-income black men, women, and children.  I have not been wounded by these systems, but it is important for me to listen to the stories of those that have, to believe them, and to advocate and usher in meaningful change.  If Fred’s story piqued your interest, there are links to the Forbes Fund as well as to a good primer for educating yourself on these issues in the show notes. Be careful what you convey/expect from a leader that is grieving.Are you expecting them to just keep on churning, without pause?  Fred has a beautiful commitment to his community.  He felt like his accomplishments were not just for him but also for his community.  He felt an expectation of strength and persistence from his community and that messaging kept him (in part) from fully grieving.  We all need a place to grieve and just to be, without an expectation of performance.Fred talked about feeling compelled to keep our interview date, even with a dozen other pressing commitments.  That having an unbiased listener allowed him to be authentic and courageous.  His words towards me were kind…and this show gives me the opportunity to really listen to a story.  But it can be hard to do in our personal lives, when there are so many demands and questions that we want to ask and subtle agendas or conditioning that keep us from really being available and showing up.  May we be and may we become a safe space for those that make up our community.   OUTRO   Link to Forbes Fund:  https://forbesfunds.org/ Workplace and Rcae Reading List:  https://hbr.org/2020/06/confronting-racism-at-work-a-reading-list Anti-Racist Resource List (books, movies, podcasts, articles). https://medium.com/wake-up-call/a-detailed-list-of-anti-racism-resources-a34b259a3eea  

- Molly Huffman A year after Tage died, I had processed so much that by the time my husband left, I, I was I was definitely anxious and really struggling at that point. But then there was this little bit of just, a I had to laugh and maybe that was all I could do to keep from drowning, but it was just like, are you kidding me? Like this, too.  This is unreal. You like this. This can't happen to people this much loss. INTRO   Sometimes in life, it seems like one loss piles on top of the next.  And that is certainly the story of my guest today, Molly Huffman.  Cancer, miscarriage, infant loss, divorce.  Molly’s story has been marked by grief.  And yet, her story holds more than grief.  She shares about the heavy, tumultuous emotions and how she has embraced life on the other side of loss…and about her new book, which chronicles this journey:  The Moon is Round.   Before we begin, I want to take a moment to note that, at the time of this recording, our country is reeling from the tragic footage of George Floyd’s death, which is convulsing the nation.  And this systemic, historic, abuse of black and brown bodies is not new news, it is just the most recent in a tragic continuum that spans centuries.  And this is definitely a workplace issue.  We will be talking about this in the weeks to come, because it is not a new issue and it is one that this podcast has not given enough voice to in the past.    As we start, I want to thank our podcast sponsor, FullStack PEO.   If you are a small business or an entrepreneur, let FullStack take care of your benefits and your payroll so you can focus on what matters most:  growing your business.  We are also sponsored by my company, Handle with Care consulting.  We offer interactive training sessions that build cultures of empathy and care…and don’t we all need a little more of that these days?   Now, back to Molly.  Molly is a Hoosier by birth but she lives now in Moorehead, Kentucky, in a little neighborhood tucked up in the hills.    - Liesel Mertes And who are the people and animals that fill your house?   - Molly Huffman My husband. Guy. And then I have two stepdaughters, Ali, who is 14, and Aaron, who is eleven. And then our son, Mack, who is one and a half. We have a chocolate Lab, Marty, who's twelve and a black and white kitty Bella, who's also twelve.   - Liesel Mertes And do the dog and the cat get along well?   - Molly Huffman They became siblings as puppy and kitten. So they've been together their whole lives. However, I don't know what they say in their pet language, but he gets so annoyed with her.   Molly loves to run, even in the sweltering heat of Kentucky summer.  And, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, Molly is also a published author.   - Molly Huffman So the book is hopefully coming in June, and it's titled The Moon is Round. And the subtitle is an extraordinary, true story of Grief, Loss and the Fight for Faith. And I tried to vulnerably share a season of life where everything fell apart. But then what I learned and the good that came from it and with the hopes that it can encourage people, you know, in whatever seasons of loss and grief and questions that they are in.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and that is a great jumping off point. I want to circle back to the book.   - Liesel Mertes But tell me what it was like to begin this season of one loss cascading onto the next. Where were you living? What were you doing? What did life look like for you?   - Molly Huffman I was living in central Indiana at the time and I was newly married, had an elementary teaching job, which is what I'd wanted to do.   - Molly Huffman I lived near my parents and my younger sisters were all nearby and it just seemed like life was suddenly falling into place. I had everything I wanted. Things were great.   - Molly Huffman And then all of a sudden, my mom got a cancer diagnosis and and suddenly everything changed. You know? And I had to really just kind of wrestle with all of that,   - Liesel Mertes And what was your relationship like with your mom? Tell me a little bit about her.   - Molly Huffman She I'm the oldest of four daughters, and so she and I had come to a point where we were friends. And I, for the most part, was never much of a rebellious kid. So we really had a great relationship. For the majority of my growing up years, with the exception of like a six month time period in high school. But she really was my best friend. She was funny and generous and kind and my favorite person to hang out with and dream and talk about life with and.   - Molly Huffman And so it was just really devastating to to lose her.   - Liesel Mertes And was it a long journey with cancer?   - Molly Huffman She there it was a spot on her shin was melanoma. And it was removed and we thought we were in the clear. And then a year later, it reappeared in some of her lymph nodes and from there just sort of spread. So it was less than a year between the time we discovered it and her lymph nodes until she was gone.   Molly Huffman But, you know, the the plus was that we had time to say what we wanted to say. The difficult part of that is. That you might be doing a lot of your grieving while the person is still alive. And, you know, so for me it was it was hard to find the balance between enjoying her and also knowing that she's dying, you know?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me tell me a little bit more about that, because that stroke is. Is its own, like daily figuring with that? What would that tension look like one day for you?   - Molly Huffman So, you know, I no longer lived under her roof because I was married. But I would teach all day and then either go to her house in the evenings or in periods of time when she was hospitalized. I would drive straight to the hospital, you know, just to be with her and to be with my dad and. Then sisters and. So it was exhausting in its own right, you know, because I'm working all day and then going and caring and grieving, which takes so much energy.   - Molly Huffman But that's just what you do. You know, so we I just. For months. That was. Just how how my days looked. And so trying to have normal conversation, you know, particularly when she was home, talking about the day and what's going on. While watching her decline and, you know, needing to talk about her pain. And what was really interesting was seeing the shift from her being a mother to me and taking care of me.   Molly Huffman And I was 24 when all this happened. So I hope I would deal with it differently now. However, at the time, I don't think I was done yet being mothered by her. And so it was hard for me to to not feel the care and nurture from her that I was used to feeling as she got sicker and sicker because she just didn't have the energy herself to give in.   - Molly Huffman So, you know, that was part of a grief as well here that that led that the tons of. Being more alone than when she had been healthy and able to give fully out of more of an overflow. Right.   - Liesel Mertes So and what was your mother's name?   - Molly Huffman Susie McCracken. Susie.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes I find, you know, people, people who have died. We don't even get to a chance to say their names in the same kind of way. And they had loomed so large, you know, in our life sphere of irony.   - Liesel Mertes And so this is a devastating thing for you in your early 20s.   - Liesel Mertes But as you write in your book, this is not the only disruption that was going to come and talk with me a little bit about what that timeline looks like with your first pregnancy and your mother's death.   - Molly Huffman So a year after. No, I'm sorry. Three years after she died. I had come out of the fog of grief. And my husband and I tried to start our family. And seven weeks into that pregnancy, on her birthday of all days. I had a miscarriage. And, you know, I wasn't yet done grieving the loss of my mom as really I suppose we never are. You know, it just morphs. But it was still pretty fresh to me at that time.   - Molly Huffman And so. It was devastating because I was so looking forward to this child and new life. And so my husband, I waited another year and then we were pregnant again. And this time our son Tage was born in March of 2014.   - Liesel Mertes And tell me a little bit about Tage.   - Molly Huffman He. Well, it's I guess I have to say, a past tense. He ended up passing away, but he was just a beautiful boy and so healthy.   - Molly Huffman When he was born and just I I felt my joy coming back. And. He was big and strong and had these bright blue eyes that just sparkled.   - Molly Huffman But around the time that he was five or six months old, we started just noticing that. Something seemed off. He wasn't making eye contact or cooing sounds that babies make. He wasn't smiling. And so we went to a couple doctors and the first one, you know, just maybe thought that I was a new mom and nervous, you know, and sort of dismissed my concern.   - Molly Huffman And so I rallied. I thought, OK, maybe that's the truth, you know, but things just weren't getting better.   - Molly Huffman So we went to a different doctor and he immediately diagnosed Tage as failure to thrive because of his weight. And so we were sent for blood work immediately that day and a follow up appointment at the Children's Hospital the next week where they admitted us for muscle impairment problems. And. And so eventually we. Discovered that he had this rare genetic disease called Lei's disease.   - Molly Huffman And it was affecting the mitochondria of all of his cells.   - Molly Huffman And so the doctors told us that it was terminal and and that he would not make it to his first birthday.   - Liesel Mertes So you go from this this big, beautiful, blue eyed baby who's already, you know, a child who has followed a loss and the sadness and the loss of this first baby you were pregnant with and the death of your mom to receiving this news. Was it was it over the span of a couple of weeks or did it did it come to you all in one day? You know, all of the the reality of his condition, I imagine that that is just a 180.   - Molly Huffman And yes, how we showed centering it was it absolute was we were you know, we went to this follow up appointment at the Children's Hospital, and I legitimately thought that they would. You know, tell us what we needed to do and send us home.   - Molly Huffman You know, I was not thinking terminal at all. And so when they wanted to admit us in that appointment, I was so confused and so. It took a couple days for. Of us being in the hospital with him, for the doctors to be able to, you know, decide what the what they're working diagnosis would be.   - Molly Huffman And so two days later, when they told us, you know, I people use that phrase, you know, the room was spinning. But it really it did. I my my body just froze. I could not believe what they were saying. And, you know, how in the world am I going to deal with this after losing my mom and our first pregnancy? And it just didn't feel like I could handle something else.   - Molly Huffman But as a parent, you figure it out. You know, you you realize, OK, well, once the shock wore off, the next day, it was go time. And we spent a week in the hospital just running different tests and Tage got a G tube so that he could eat successfully.   - Molly Huffman And so, you know, going home from the hospital a week later, life looked totally different than when we had entered the hospital.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and I'm struck, as you say, that about a distinct parallel between what you said about your mom, that you were walking this tension of how am I with her and enjoying her, but also grieving her while she's still alive. Did you feel like did that feel akin at all to what you were doing with Tage? Like, I'm I'm with him and I'm wanting to delight in him and be with this child, but I'm grieving him because I have this, I don't know this limited amount of time.   - Molly Huffman Yes. Oh, it was. It was so difficult. My husband, you know, still had to work. So he would go to work Monday through Friday. And I was home with Tage by myself at first and needing to feed him with a G tube, which was new. And, you know, looking at him was the reminder that he was also dying. And it was just so intense.   - Molly Huffman It was so emotionally intense during that time, trying to balance. I love him. I want to care for him and enjoy him while also knowing that our time is limited. And. And I didn't know how much time at that point we would have.   - Molly Huffman But I can say, thankfully, that once I figured out that I could not do that by myself. Friends stepped in and would come over during the day and be with me and just help help me not feel as alone.   - Molly Huffman Which was so such a gift.   - Liesel Mertes I'd like to hear more about that because. One, you know, distinct aspect of what this podcast is about is enabling people to be able to show up in ways that are helpful and that matter as these friends came to your house. Did you did you ask them to come? Did they offer to come? How did that start? Like, what was the tipping point? For that to change for you. Sure.   - Molly Huffman I, I had told a trusted friend or two that. You know that at the time, I, I just could not stop crying because I'm trying to take care of stage, but he's dying, you know. And just seeing him was the reminder. And, and so when I finally admitted that to someone, she said that was actually this is really neat. It was one of my mom's friends. And I think there was this part of me, you know, that when I needed care, you know.   - Molly Huffman And so she's she saw that and said, what if we make a schedule? And she looks at all these people that were my mom's friends that, you know, were in their friend group,   - Molly Huffman She said, what if we make a schedule and, you know, just for whatever you want, two hours in the morning, someone can come and then two hours that afternoon, someone can come and, you know, and it can be fluid. You know, maybe we start with somebody in the morning and some in the afternoon every day.   - Molly Huffman And if that's too much and you can always text us and say, don't come. And so it was really neat.   - Molly Huffman We ended up making this schedule and so hurt my mom's friends would come and sometimes my friends would come as well, and sometimes we cried. Sometimes they just sat in the other room while, you know, I did the things that I needed to get done. Or they might help with laundry or dishes and. And eventually I realized that actually having someone in the morning, in the afternoon was actually too much because I knew that I needed to process the grief.   - Molly Huffman But when people were there, it was hard for me to be real about the grief. And so we then tapered it back and, you know, maybe someone would only come in the afternoon. And, you know, sometimes people would.   - Liesel Mertes I paused for a second just because I'm, I'm struck. You said something interesting that I want to hear more about, the importance of processing your grief and that when someone else was there, I think you said it kept you from being. And being real about the grief that. Tell me more about that. How did the presence of another person in, in so many ways in which it was helpful, but how did that affect how you were processing your grief?   - Molly Huffman My personality is a helper and a caretaker. It's just what I do. And so when other people are at my house, I can't help but want to take care of them. And so. I got better at letting that go during this time, but. But there was still an underlying sense of like I need to have conversation with this person, I need to entertain them. I need to offer them a drink, you know? And so I I couldn't care for myself emotionally when I'm trying to care for some of the people now, you know, a couple of my very closest friends.   - Molly Huffman You know, I wouldn't necessarily feel that pressure, but some of my mom's friends who, you know, I didn't necessarily spend a lot of time with before then. I felt like I needed to care for them.   - Molly Huffman And so it was helpful to have them, but then also helpful to have time without them so that I could just let the tears fall.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And as you were aware of this need to process your grief, what were some of the things that were especially helpful for you in that journey of, you know, just walking with this hard reality being like internally to to make space for that sadness?   - Molly Huffman I think. Being honest about my anger and my questions about it. I grew up in a very faith filled family and, you know, as often under, under the thought of, you know, be joyful, always give thanks in all circumstances. And I think that we can be joyful and give thanks in all circumstances once we've been honest about our pain. And so this time gave me.   - Molly Huffman I was able to. I learned to pray honestly:  the doubt and the questions and the anger and believing that that this God that I had believed in, you know, that he could handle all of that, too, gave me such a space to to be able to process the grief. Honestly.   - Liesel Mertes Was that something that you had someone invite you into or you read a book or it was just the overflow of where you were at? Because sometimes there's this element of finding permission out of out of a context that didn't really have space for that. How did you how were you able to accept that that was OK for you to do?   - Molly Huffman Two things. I had a couple friends who would say things like, like Molly, I would be angry, too, you know, and just validated the feeling or some other friends would say it's okay for you to be angry about this to God. You know, like to give the permission.   - Molly Huffman The other thing that was really helpful to me was. Again, going up in church, I know there were these ways that we prayed as children. Like confession or praising God. But what I hadn't learned how to do was lament. And so during that time I started coming across passages in the Bible where these. Men and women of faith and even Jesus himself would lament, know, God, why have you forsaken me?   - Molly Huffman And so seeing that and, and seeing this pattern and this permission to lament allowed me to process the grief. I also found different counselors over that time who were great at helping me process and allowing me to grieve as well. So there were there were so many parts. They were helpful. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Well, then. That's face of a community of people, whether it was friends or counselors, to be able to, yes, allow you to feel your feelings and not have to suppress them.   - Liesel Mertes I I have found in the work that I do in my own experience that grief can feel so profoundly isolating because there's no one who who knows the exact dimensionality of your grief and and how even it changes throughout a day. And that particularly with the loss of children or their sickness, that that that can be something that can be hard in in partners or a couple those moments where you are grieving differently than your partner. Did you run into that as Tage was sickening and declining?   - Molly Huffman Yes. My husband tended to run toward work and and busyness and and so he was away from the house a lot. So being stuck at the house, I tended to run toward my girlfriends and family members who could come by. And so we definitely grieved differently.   - Molly Huffman We we did go on a grief retreat. Together. And this was after staged a yes after Tage died. And, you know, worked on processing it together and. And. Really there I felt a lot of of hope leaving that weekend. But.   - Molly Huffman Ultimately, we were not able to turn toward each other. And, and he ended up filing for divorce a year after Tage died.   - Liesel Mertes So. These are. A number of losses from the life that you were moving into two years previous as you were pregnant and expecting stage. What was going on was that. How did that feel? It seems like just so many losses. One on top of the other.   - Molly Huffman It was I. I think by the you know, after a year after Tage died, I had processed so much that by the time my husband left, I, I was I was definitely anxious and really struggling at that point. But then there was this little bit of just, a I had to laugh and maybe that was all I could do to keep from drowning, but it was just like, are you kidding me? Like this, too.   - Molly Huffman This is unreal. You like this. This can't happen to people this much loss. But one day at a time, one counseling appointment at a time, one walk with a friend at a time. You know, I here I am and. And life is good now. So it was so, so much loss. And I still I miss my mom, like, all the time. And I miss Tage.   - Molly Huffman And, you know, so those losses have not gone away but I have. Learned to live with them. I just picture the wound is not open anymore. There's a scar. And I'll never forget.   - Molly Huffman But I also and as I explain in in the book, I like this version of me better. All the things that loss and grief taught me.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more. Tell me more about that. What? How is this version of you different than 23 year old Molly?   - Molly Huffman I would say and I don't want any of this to sound like I'm puffing myself up, you know. But I can see when I look at 23 year old version of Molly versus now just that, I I have more compassion for people, you know. Twenty three year old Molly was all about herself and what she could get and what she wanted. I   - Molly Huffman My values are different. As far as what used to be important is no longer important. The things that I, that I think I need to make me happy. I don't need those things anymore. You know, as far as material things or.   Per. I don't know. I'm trying think what else it could be, but. And   - Molly Huffman I think this version of me is just more authentic. I, I am I feel more that I am who I was created to be. Now I know who I am. And I'm just much more grateful.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. Do you do you find so with with a number of losses, you know, and to specifically related to bringing children into the world? Did your experience can also tip into feeling yourself as more fearful or anxious? You know, even starting a new marriage with your husband stepping into has. Has there been a shadow of what if everything falls apart again for you? Yes.   - Liesel Mertes Amen. So I am how have you lived within that?   - Molly Huffman Well, so the good news is I'm now remarried to my husband guy and we have two stepdaughters.   - Molly Huffman Well, I have to say, barters his daughters and we have our son, Mac, who's one and a half. And   - Molly Huffman so two major moments in my life where they there was a crossroads. I remember getting married to Guy and and thinking, how do I do this again when my first marriage failed. But I think this time with marriage, I hold it loosely. I don't need the marriage to complete me or to fulfill me. Instead, I get to just enjoy guy as a gift that I've been given.   - Molly Huffman And it's so interesting because, you know, my first husband wanted out and and that was a huge fear of mine for so long that that, you know, someone would leave. But I saw OK. So the worst thing happened. He left and I'm OK. I was held it and so I know. You know, I've joked with go out with guy like if you want to leave, you can't. Like, I. I'm not going to, too.   - Molly Huffman I'm not. I keep you here if you don't want to be here, you know, and honestly, that that opens up such a freedom. And I think for me, a more genuine love for this person knowing that I don't need to control them. And I can just enjoy it for what it is.   - Molly Huffman And then when our son Mac was born in the hospital, I actually had him like a PTSD moment hearing him cry for the first time because I hadn't heard my baby cry since stage right before Tage died.   - Molly Huffman And so there have been some moments like that where all of a sudden, you know, the fear and the anxiety can come rushing back in or, you know, in quiet moments by myself. There are these questions in my mind of, well, what if what if he dies, too? And I think it's important for us to to take that question and say, OK, what if what if. And you know, what I've learned through all of this is that I will be OK if if Mac dies, it will be treacherous and grievous and it will take some time and it will be hard and I will be OK.   - Molly Huffman And. And, you know, having those realizations for both of those relationships has allowed me to live in such freedom. And I think sometimes, you know, we fear, well, what if this worst thing could happen? And literally, my three biggest fears happened to me within a matter of seven years. And. The thing is, if we lean into it and. Get help and admit that we can't do it in seek our friends and seek counselors and.   - Molly Huffman And, you know, in my belief, see, God like you, he will not let you fall in. And so so that's what I live with now.   - Liesel Mertes Can you tell me a little bit more? You know, if someone is listening to this and to hear you able to say, I will be OK, they might think, well, what does OK mean? Does that mean just that you're still alive? Like, is that OK? What does being OK, tell me more about that and what that has meant for you being okay?   - Molly Huffman Now, being in a place where I can say I will be OK is for me. Being able to acknowledge the loss and that there is still pain there. I still miss the people that I've lost, I miss parts of my former life where I lived and who I lived near. But, I also. I've seen that. We can we can still live with that pain, but it doesn't consume us. And there is still. Hope and joy and beauty after loss. And I think sometimes we do. We have a choice.   - Molly Huffman I remember a specific moment that I write about in the book where I had to decide what path I was going to take. And one path would lead me to bitterness. And I have seen people who took that path after loss.   - Molly Huffman And and I believe the other path leads to life. When, if we, if we can choose to do the work and the wrestling in the midst of our pain and and just cling. Then. I really I really have experienced that. You know, our our biggest fears coming true do not have to they knock us down. They knock us down profoundly, but they don't have to destroy us.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. I think that's that's helpful. Sometimes you've had a diversity of types of losses. Sometimes when people are trying to be helpful in the midst of that, they say or do things that are not that helpful. What are some of the least helpful things that people offered to you?   - Liesel Mertes You just say, oh, my gosh, like you might want to be helpful, but please don't do this. Yes.   - Molly Huffman Well. So after Tage died, I had thought that I was going to be staying home, you know, for a long time, raising stage in whatever siblings might come after him.   - Molly Huffman And so instead, my counselor at the time told me, Molly need to go back to work. You can't just sit around your house all day and. I was so mad that he said that, but it turned out to be so true, and so I went back in to the elementary school as a teacher and. I found there that that.   - Molly Huffman Some people were so helpful in that they would leave little notes on my desk for me to see when I got there in the morning or, you know, if I'd stepped out.   - Molly Huffman Or they would just offer a hug. Or little gifts, you know, just things to let you know. Even if we weren't, they weren't my closest co-workers. But but just offering acknowledgement in whatever way they felt comfortable. The thing I would say most of the teachers were amazing. They really, really were.   - Molly Huffman But I know sometimes, you know, we get wrapped up, sometimes caught up in what do I say? And I think what's important for us to know is that nothing that we could say to someone who's grieving in our workplace or anywhere is going to fix it so we can take the pressure off ourselves that we don't have to find the perfect words. Sometimes less is better. You know, just. I'm glad you're back, Molly. I am so sorry. May I give you a hug? You know, simple.   - Molly Huffman Keep it simple. But what's not helpful? What were phrases like? Well, at least, you know, you can be here now. Dot, dot, dot. You know, putting that phrase at least, you know, whatever follows that is not helpful. And, you know, it minimizes the pain. And I know that sometimes we all do that from. A feeling of feeling awkward or not knowing what to say. But. But it's still not good.   - Molly Huffman That was not helpful.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, exactly. I'd do it. Yes. When we when we. Because I know that even though I really care about it, I can still, like you can spin into these just ingrained behaviors or you feel like you're just grasping at words.     But that's the purpose. Now, don't do that. Yeah, helpful.   - Liesel Mertes Well, your book your book is exciting. Does it? This is this is a question from someone else who, you know, right in some ways, you know, I I write my own journey with Mercy. I don't know to what end or what I'll do with it, but there could be a sense of like, man like this journey is still unfolding. I'm still changing within it.   - Liesel Mertes Does it feel like a like an important like flag in the sand to have put out a book on it? Did that feel like. Yes, I have something to say. And this is it. Is there a sense of like, oh, but my story is still unfolding with this. Tell me, just as a writer, what that has been like to get something out there.   - Molly Huffman Well, I started writing after my mom died. And so this whole journey of loss is is reflective. Of writing for me in in my. You know, I didn't write really before my mom died, and I thought I was going to write a book about losing a parent. And then all of a sudden, you know, there was more loss and more lesson. And so I never felt like it was time to put it. On paper. But I had a blog while Tage was sick, it started as a Caring Bridge when we were in the hospital, but I couldn't help but kind of write.   - Molly Huffman In story form, because that's just what I like to do and. And so after we were out of the hospital, some people were like, well, will you keep writing about all of this? And so we started a blog.   - Molly Huffman And. So I always thought that it might be neat to write a book someday. And then when I met my husband Guy, I just sense that that particular chapter of life and those losses. I wanted that, too, to not be behind me as in to never think of it again. But I wanted a marker that, OK, here was that incredible season of life and what happened and what I learned.   - Molly Huffman And now I'm going to turn the corner here and see what's next, because I'm sure I'm not done writing and I'm sure I know my story and the listener story. No one story is over, you know. But but it it does feel really nice to just. Like you said, plant a flag. Like, let there be a marker from that season of loss and pain. And now moving into this new season, which I'm sure we'll have loss and pain because that just seems to be life.   - Molly Huffman But but I am excited to get to share this book with the world may hopefully be with a little more space in between the losses.   - Liesel Mertes Right. I can feel for myself when I hit 30. I had friends around me who were like thirties, so old. So I was like 30. Feels just right. I lived a heck of a lot of life in my 20s, 30s. Slow down a little bit. Yes. My hope. Yes. Grief.   - Liesel Mertes If someone is listening and they say, I absolutely want to get this book, where is it available and where should they go?   - Molly Huffman It is currently available on Amazon. I believe that the distribution will be wider soon. But for now, I would just say go to Amazon.   - Molly Huffman And I know that there is a little bit of a backup with ordering, you know, because of COVID.   - Liesel Mertes But and I will include a link in the show note. You can also go there. And it's great because you're already getting a ton of your stuff from Amazon. So you just add it on with your toilet paper.   - Molly Huffman Exactly. Easy peasy. One click.   Liesel Mertes You're also a speaker. Tell us a little bit about people who would maybe want to know more or have you for an event. Sure. What kinds of speaking do you do?   - Molly Huffman I love speaking to groups. I have spoken to women's events, college events, youth group events. I've spoken at churches and done even just a writing talk one time. So I would love to to be invited to speak to any group. I love to encourage.   - Liesel Mertes  So what is the best way for people to be in touch with you?   [00:46:36.590] - Molly Huffman My Web site. MollyHuffman.com. And there is a contact button.   - Liesel Mertes Perfect. Molly, thank you.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Molly If you know someone that is in an overwhelming, isolating season (particularly with a small child) it can be really helpful to make a schedule of support.Molly’s friends made sure that she had someone with her….IF she wanted to and they gave her space to cancel at any time.  This sort of consistent, responsive, flexible support can be deeply meaningful.  Molly noted, “Nothing you do or say will ultimately fix the person that is grieving” so release yourself from the pressure of getting it perfect.Molly appreciated gifts, a hug, and the small gestures of people moving towards her.  Grief can and often will cause you to question what seemed like unshakeable beliefs.As Molly grew in her practice of faith and her ways of prayer, she benefitted from friends that encouraged her to be open and honest in her questions.  And this open, honest engagement is so important for faith and for life.  Avoiding or stuffing unwieldy emotions is toxic, what we resist persists.    OUTRO   Link to The Moon is Round:  https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Round-Story-Extraordinary-Grief/dp/B089D34VT6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+moon+Is+round&qid=1591579462&sr=8-1   Molly’s Website:  mollyhuffman.com

  - Barry Hoyer All of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity. Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work. Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was   INTRO   Today, I am talking with Barry Hoyer.  Barry works for DISH Network and lives in Denver with his two dogs, who have grown rather needy due to his constant, COVID-19 presence.    - Barry Hoyer I've I've been with them all day, which I think is part of the part of the problem that they're getting accustom and they're like, we're just so used to having you here.   Last year, Barry was also living with AJ, the love of his life who was killed, suddenly, by a drunk driver.  We will explore his love and his loss in today’s episode.  But first, a brief word from our sponsors.    We are sponsored today by Fullstack PEO.  Fullstack provides turnkey benefits for entrepreneurs and small businesses.  They have a top-notch staff that I genuinely enjoy interacting with.   We are also sponsored by Handl with Care consulting, offering targeted, impactful sessions to help your staff survive, stabilize, and thrive in the midst of COVID-19.    I met Barry during my second year of my MBA in Bloomington.  He was as first year, part of the GLOBASE program where we traveled to Accra, Ghana to consult with emerging entrepreneurs.  We went on morning runs through the streets of Accra together.  Barry is warm and witty with a quick laugh.     - Liesel Mertes So tell me a little bit more about A.J., what were some of your absolutely favorite, most delightful things about him?   - Barry Hoyer Oh, my God. The way he laughed when he was truly I don't know what the right word is touched by something or found something particularly funny.   - Barry Hoyer He had this different laugh that would come out that just let you know that it wasn't a reaction for the sake of a reaction. It was true.   - Barry Hoyer I'm never going to forget that laugh. He also had this way of like when things were stressful at work or when I'd had a bad day, like he would just kind of put his arms around me and I could put my head on the shoulder. And he had just this way of saying, oh, I know. I'm sorry. Yeah, it was very, very comforting.   - Liesel Mertes Did he have any particularly endearing, quirky things that he did?   - Barry Hoyer Oh, my goodness. This is. He's gonna hate that I mentioned this, especially in a recorded situation when he was growing up. He grew up. He was born and raised.   - Barry Hoyer Well, grew up for the first eight years in Southern California. Then his family moved to Indiana. And somewhere along the way, he had befriended a Puerto Rican family. And he'd be learning Spanish, and so he just continued studying Spanish in college. And next thing you know, him being Puerto Rican became part of his ancestry.   - Barry Hoyer So, so much of the point that when I met him, I thought he was Puerto Rican because he told me he was Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer All of our friends thought he was Puerto Rican. And even when he spoke Spanish, it was with a very, very heavy Puerto Rican accent. There was nothing Puerto Rican about him. Dean assumed Puerto Rican identity. It's kind of like the thing that, like people are still like, I can't believe he wasn't Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer Shortly after the exit happened, like two days later, his mom and stepdad came out to help with arrangements and just to, you know, handle everything with me.   - Barry Hoyer And I had a bunch of friends over one night just kind of needing a sense of community. And his mom and stepdad were there and his biological father was there. And there might have been a little bit of wine consumed over the course of the night. But his mom basically outed him as not being Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer She told us this story that she had gone to softball practice to watch his younger sister play softball. And one of the other moms of one of the girls on the team came up and was like, Oh, your ages, mom.   - Barry Hoyer I didn't know your husband was Puerto Rican. She was just like. Neither did I. And that's what she that everyone in the room.   - Barry Hoyer And she was like, I don't care how mad he gets at me for this. He wasn't Puerto Rican. He was a white boy.   - Liesel Mertes May it be known.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah, it was going it was one of those moments of levity that was severely needed. Yes. In the midst of all of that.   - Liesel Mertes And how long ago did you and A.J. first meet?   - Barry Hoyer We met a little over six years ago.   - Liesel Mertes And were you drawn to each other quickly and did you know it was fairly intense?   - Barry Hoyer We met and we met the old fashioned way. We met at a party. A party almost didn't go to I was relatively new to Denver, I'd been in Denver for five months. And I didn't. I almost didn’t go to this party. I didn't. I don't generally enjoy showing up places by myself. And I knew there were going to be a lot of people and, you know, brand new, loud social situation. I almost stayed home, but I end up going and had a great time.   - Barry Hoyer And about two hours after I got there, I might have had a little bit to drink that night. And I shouted at one of our other friends in Spanish to make me a drink. And then this handsome stranger walked up to me. And in Spanish aska, Oh, so you speak Spanish. And then we just started talking for the rest of the night. And you would have never known that there was anybody else in the room. It was just very intense.   - Barry Hoyer A grew very quickly. It was just one those things they had never felt so sure about. And so, you know, the next morning, I would like everybody, a bunch of you will end up staying at the house just because it was that kind of party and those kind of friends. So this morning, AJ's waking up and helping clean up an. I was still relatively new. So, like one of my friends, I was like, man, what's your phone number again?   - Barry Hoyer So I was telling him my phone number. And then AJ pulls out his phone and basically said, wait. You start over again. I was like, oh, I see where this is going. And we're pretty much inseparable after that.   Last year, Barry and AJ traveled to Europe for 11 days.  They got a great deal on airfare and went to Spain.    - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Was there a city that particularly stood out? They said this was just like the best day.   - Barry Hoyer Oh, man, I'm glad you asked. He had been kind of obsessed with Spanish culture, and he really wanted to see the city of Granada. It's in the south of Spain. And so I figured out a way to fit it in and make it work. And that was probably was definitely his most memorable stop on the trip. So much so that he felt that we should move there. Mm hmm.   - Barry Hoyer But we had this really great AirBnB that was literally right across there's a little river. And we were right across this little river from the Colomba. So we had a little Juliet balcony off of the apartment that we rented. And it had just the most incredible view of the Illawarra, a daytime. And then that night, we had found a bottle of wine and sat on a little balcony and had a glass of wine and watch the kind of sunset behind.   - Barry Hoyer And D'Alemberte lit up at night. Mm hmm. And it was just kind of really I don't know. I didn't realize it at the time. How profound of a moment it would be. But it was just kind of incredible to be in this ancient setting, in this beautiful space and just be able to get to share such a view of an incredible piece of history with the person that I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.   - Liesel Mertes And. What was that? Was it even when you got the news?   - Barry Hoyer It was the next morning I had I had to work on that. And so I stayed up late that night and. I got home from my work event somewhere between 10 and 11. And then around one o'clock in the morning, I woke up and he wasn't home. And so I texted him and. Didn't hear anything. And but the tax, because we both have iPhones.   - Barry Hoyer I can see the, the message was being delivered. So I knew that it was going through, but I knew that he wasn't responding, so I kind of texted for an hour, try to figure out what to do next. And then when that didn't happen. We need to respond. I started calling and I probably called 70 something times and it went straight to voicemail. That's when I started to get really concerned.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. And then I started calling every emergency room in the Denver metro area. I started calling every police station to see if anybody could tell me anything and nobody could tell me anything that had happened.   - Barry Hoyer So I had kind of this false sense of security. Like if nobody is telling me anything, then everything must be OK. And then the next morning, we know and later that morning, I guess I hadn't heard anything by 10 o'clock and nobody was telling me anything and I was extremely panicked. I went to the local police station to file a missing persons report. And then after about forty five minutes of waiting, a police officer told me what had happened.   - Liesel Mertes What, what a horrible stretch of time. I mean, I just imagine that felt maddening that this cascade of not knowing what had happened.   - Barry Hoyer There's a lot I don't remember after getting the news, but from the moment when I first was worried, when I found out what happened, I can tell you what every minute was like.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And what was the news that you received about what had happened to AJ?   - Barry Hoyer An officer took me into a separate room and told me that there had been an accident involving an under the influence driver. And that he didn't survive. The AJC did interview A.J. did not survive.   - Liesel Mertes What I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot that you don't remember. What are some of the emotions that accompany that sort of unexpected and devastating news?   - Barry Hoyer To be completely honest, I kind of went to business mode. Yeah, and it was such a shock that I didn't have time to really process what had happened. It was more I need to get a hold of his mom. I need to talk to his family. I need to let our close friends know what happened. Where do I start? How do I figure this out? And they got pretty overwhelmed. And then they called two of our closest friends.   - Barry Hoyer And told them what happened, and then they drove to the police station immediately to to come get me. Yeah, and they got home and it was just really weird walking into the space they had shared with somebody for so many years. Is everything felt different when I walked in? Mm hmm. And. That was kind of the moment where I ended up, I stayed with friends for the first couple nights. And it was just it was kind of a mix of disbelief because it was so sudden.   All right.   - Barry Hoyer Our last real conversation that we had that day was about when the air conditioning unit was going to be repaired. Such trivial conversation on one hand, like I would have loved for our last conversation to have been something meaningful where, you know, we talked about all of our future plans and how much we loved each other and how great life was and all the sunshine and roses aspect. But on the other hand, our last conversation, the last time that we spoke was about something so, just, everyday life, the stuff that every couple deals with and. I had no way of knowing that, you know.   - Barry Hoyer Like, I beat myself up a little bit more sometimes about that, if I had known, if I had any way of knowing that that was going to be our last conversation. I camera if I said I love you before I hung up. I'm sure I did. But it would be nice to really remember for sure if those were my last actual words to him.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, it just highlights exactly what you've said, that this was such an unexpected shock. You know, I am, I think. The immediacy of grief. You know, you talked about kind of switching in business mode. I can resonate with that. Because for me, when I receive hard news, I feel like I feel like where my mind and emotions very naturally go is OK. What is the next thing that needs to be done as a result of this?   - Liesel Mertes For me, oftentimes afterwards I can find that my emotions can catch up to me quite suddenly and unexpectedly. Whether that is a day or two or a week later. Did you find that something similar happened for you?   - Liesel Mertes Is there a point where the emotional weight of the moment you felt like caught up with you?   - Barry Hoyer They're. Gosh, What’s the best way to answer that? My mom, my brother and my sister in law came out immediately. To be with me and to be there for the service, and I kind of felt that as long as I had somebody there to take care of, you know, here were people that were guests in my home, even though they're family.   - Barry Hoyer But I still had an obligation to take care of people and I still had responsibilities to others in that kind of. Helped me stay in business mode and get through what I needed to get through in Denver.   - Barry Hoyer And so there wasn't a real. I feel like I was just kind of numb. I either had something to do or I had nothing to do with it when I had nothing to do. I just didn't want to think about anything.   - Barry Hoyer I took some time off from work, and so my brother had to fly home to get back to work. But my sister in law and mom and I drove out back to California with the dogs. And so I kind of felt like I was responsible for my brother's wife. I was responsible for my mom. I was responsible for getting all of us back to California safely. And then so I just stayed in that mindset that I had a job to do and I could not experience anything other than the responsibility of that job until I got to where we were going. Right.   - Barry Hoyer And then once I got to my parents house. I'm pretty sure I turned into some combination of a five year old and a 13 year old and a 30 something diva, depending on kind of what moment of the day it was.   - Liesel Mertes Right. And they did. I'm sorry. What did that what did the five year old version look like for people who have not encountered traumatic grief? What did you find yourself feeling or doing?   - Barry Hoyer My mom and I have always been extremely close. And I've got probably the most caring mother in the world. I know everybody should probably through it isn't feel that everybody should feel that, but I hope everybody experiences some level of that. But as much as I love my mom, she wanted to check on me and she was being too much of a mother.   - Barry Hoyer To the point where I basically was just like, go away. I don't want to talk to you. I want to be by myself. Leave me alone. And just having reactions that after I'd had a little the time to process them, realize that maybe that's not the way you're supposed to talk to your mom. Like, remember that she wants to do what she can. And. But you don't necessarily think about other people's feelings in those moments, you kind of like reverted to a very kind of like primal reaction to where I was overwhelmed.   - Barry Hoyer And I knew that the if I yelled at somebody or something, then that was my quickest way to let somebody know that I was overwhelmed. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What did how did people respond to you in that in a way that was important, either like, wow, people missed me and they were really harsh with me when I was just expressing myself. Or on the other hand, you know, people did a really great job of weathering that with me.   - Liesel Mertes What did you find felt important for you?   - Barry Hoyer In the first couple days, I had some words for my mom that kept resonating in my head. My mom suffered a stillbirth before I was born. And she said one of the things that was most impactful that people had told her. Was simply just, you know, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Just know that you're in my thoughts. And I had a lot of people express very similar sentiments. And that meant the most to me, because I know that everybody wants to feel like they're helping, everybody wants to.   - Barry Hoyer It feels good to be there for people. It feels good to support people. And everybody wants to contribute to that. But there were just some moments, whereas like, you know what? Great. Thank you. And just had those more like simple. Expressions like that allowed me a chance to not have to talk about what happened, to dwell on what happened, just simply to know that somebody was thinking of me. Yeah.   - Barry Hoyer When I got back to work, the first couple days were tough and. Somebody on my team told me. Oh, well, you're handling this so well, you're you're holding up so well. And my first reaction was. Involving an expletive. Yeah. That I won't mention here. It just came across as incredibly callous. Mm hmm.   – Liesel Mertes And I had to remind myself a little bit more about that, because I can picture some people thinking, well, why was that callous?   Barry Hoyer – It was. It implies that there's some expectation of how you're supposed to kind of readjust to life. And it was like in my head, I was thinking, you know, you have no idea how I'm feeling. I'm trying to hold it together because I'm at work and I don't necessarily want to display a ton of emotions at work.   - Barry Hoyer And it's all I can do to hold it together. And you're pointing out the fact that I'm holding it together.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It just a day came across as very disingenuous. Mm hmm, yeah. It almost felt like one of those things that you say to somebody in a situation like that when you don't really have anything substantive to say.   - Barry Hoyer I tried to remind myself that, you know, people meet people where they're at. And this is where this individual happened to be at. And they were trying to say something nice would be encouraging. And they had to just kind of remind myself of that fact and move on before I let myself get frustrated.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, man. I hear that it can be that global awareness can be this added like mental burden, because not only are you processing your own stuff in your own grief, but suddenly you're having to try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and think about how they're feeling. And I imagine that can have its own degree of exhaustion when you're just trying to get through a day.   - Barry Hoyer It can be a lot in that particular sentiment came across as like. This is how you're coming across to me, like it didn't necessarily remove the person from the thought that they wanted to get across.   - Barry Hoyer I got very much was around their perception of the event.   - Barry Hoyer I don't know that one still feels a little raw. To be honest, four and a half months later.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, I've. I have heard from other people who have been on the receiving end of that comment that sometimes they can place a particular expectation as well, like, oh, you're doing so well. And one could miss your reality. What if you're not actually doing that well? And two, I can set this, I don't know, kind of high bar of like I don't expect to see any weakness from you or to have any bad day because then you suddenly wouldn't be doing quote unquote. Well. And what would that mean? I've spoken with some people that feel like it. Yeah. It just sets a a really unrealistic bar of expectation also.   - Barry Hoyer Now, that's actually an incredible observation. I hadn't even really stopped to think about that. But soon as you said that, the first part that you hit on was like, no, like, in fact, I'm not doing that well. This is just a show. But the thing that didn't even stop to think about until now is there was some. It makes perfect sense. There's some underlying expectation. Like, oh, OK. So this is what your expectation of me is. And so this is how I have to maintain going forward.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Maybe in a strange sort of way, like, you know, a hundred years ago as women were in corsets and high heels and all of these like kind of ridiculous garments to just hold everything in for appearances sake and be like, oh, you just look so charming and beautiful. And the woman is thinking like, oh, my gosh, I can barely keep this up. And it's just a normal media like non course added in just my normal feet. Like going to just be such a disappointment. So strange parallel. But I could picture something like that. I'd be like, are you kidding me?   - Barry Hoyer This is no, that's a great analogy.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Barry Hoyer One of the more interesting reactions was when I got back to work. And a colleague who I'm not particularly close with outside of the office, saw me the first day I was back and ran up to me in the middle of the floor and gave me this huge hug and it's kind of loud. I'm so sorry. And I didn't really want that kind of attention drawn to me. Yeah. Again, I think this person had great intentions. I don't think that they were coming from a disingenuous place. It was just a bit more than I cared for at work. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Because when that happened, what were you thinking in real time?   - Barry Hoyer I was thinking, we can talk later, but please make this stop. Because she basically wanted to have a conversation that I did not want to have in that moment. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I think that you mentioned and not everyone is able to say this, but that actually there's some things that your workplaces done really well. What were some of those things that felt meaningful to you?   - Barry Hoyer I'm very, very fortunate in that. I have both of my my first level manager and my V.P.. Are just incredible people to start with. I have a closer relationship with both of them than I have with any other manager in the past. So as soon as I called my mom and a few close friends, the next person I called was my manager just to let her know what had happened. And it's funny looking back at it now, it's actually asked if it was OK if I didn't come into work the following Monday and this was a Saturday that I'd found everything out.   - Barry Hoyer And. I think she was in shock and she was fairly blown away. And. When she basically told me to worry about anything, we're going to handle everything you just focus on, like what you need to focus on.   - Barry Hoyer And there were a handful of times where she actually cried with me on the phone and I could tell that she truly could empathize with what I was dealing with and definitely had her own level of sadness for the situation that I was experiencing.   - Barry Hoyer So my no, my work kind of went above and beyond. A friend of mine at work that works in H.R. was trying to be helpful and had sent me a phone number to call for a direct line. Basically saying that after bereavements up, if I need more time out of the office, you know, just like here's a phone number, you can call our leaves team.   - Barry Hoyer And then my head was my immediate thought was OK. So I just lost the love of my life. And now I probably don't wanna go back to work. That's probably best for everybody. They don't go back to work right now. But on top of that, I potentially misunderstood what my managers had said. And so now, like just letting the practicalities of everything sit in, half of our income is gone, but our fixed expenses have stayed the same. And now I'm going to not have a paycheck for a little while unless I just go back to work and suck this up.   - Barry Hoyer And I truly believe that the person that sent me the text was coming from a very caring place. But my manager stepped in and she was like, no, I don't regret that. We're gonna handle everything. I'll bring you your laptop. As far as H.R. is concerned, you're working remotely for the indefinite future. And as far as we are concerned, you're not working at all until you're ready to. So she really extended herself to be able to be creative and not bound by kind of process and bureaucracy in a way that was attuned to you.   - Liesel Mertes This seemed really important.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It's one of those moments where I'm really extremely grateful that I have such a great relationship with my manager. But they truly believe that management in my department cares so much. That this offer, good offer offers not the right word, but that the same situation would have been extended to anybody.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, you're going to just affirm. That's a great testament to, you know, things like that one offs. They are testifying to a culture that has been built in lots of other moments and that in a time of crisis that becomes the overflow like that, the natural overflow is support. So, yeah, I hear how important that is.   - Barry Hoyer It was great. I even got an e-mail from my CFO telling me to worry about myself and focus on myself first, and that work should be the absolute last thought until it felt like the right time to think about work again.   Yeah, OK.   - Barry Hoyer One of the more thoughtful responses from work. My company tends to be pretty social, especially around the holiday times, and a few years ago we had a new chief marketing officer that started an agent. We're at a holiday party at another VPC house that night. And our CMO had the opportunity to meet A.J. and chatted with us for a little bit and was very warm and welcoming and truly inquisitive about like, you know, getting to know A.J. and I in turn, got to have a wonderful conversation with his wife. And it was just a fun night. And then after news, it work had spread about what had happened. Our CMO sent me just a really kind email with a few touching notes about, you know, basically acknowledging I didn't know AJ well, but I remember talking with you guys that night.   - Barry Hoyer It seems like you guys enjoyed a Wonderful Life together and had many adventures. And I'm so sorry that this has happened. You will be in my thoughts and prayers. And it was just very touching in that he remembered specific things that you know about his conversation with AJ and knew more than just his name and that, you know, he and I were together.   - Liesel Mertes Right. That although he didn't know him deeply. He had taken the time to reflect and remember. And, yeah. Give back to you what he had known and observed.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It was just a very touching moment. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes So for someone who has not lost a life partner, what are some of the unexpected challenges or the things that you would say in the months afterwards? Like this was so hard? I never would have known that this would be as hard as it was. Did things catch you off guard?   - Barry Hoyer The biggest the biggest surprise to me and I don't know if this speaks to my own naivete or if it just truly is one of the things that you don't know until you have to experience it. But I always imagined the stages of grief to be linear. First, you start with anger and then, you know, you kind of progressed through the next five or seven stages. One's a natural progression of the next. And or of the previous, I'm not quite sure how to say that, but I was honestly expecting to move through the stages, kind of like.   - Barry Hoyer And the straight line. Yes. And even still, there are days where, like. I know what happened. I know they can't change what happened. And I just have to do my best to move forward carrying this new aspect of my life with me.   - Barry Hoyer And then there are other days where I get so completely angry that I can't focus on anything and have to take a walk to before I can get back to work and be productive. Then I don't know if the anger comes from just given the situation of how his death happened.   - Barry Hoyer Guys get really mad. And then there are moments where, you know, the next day things feel more calm and I feel like I'm equipped to go through life again. And then all of a sudden you get more information and then you're back to being angry and you're back to being filled with a relative amount of rage. And it just it bounces all over the place.   - Liesel Mertes There is a particular nuance to your loss in that you're a homosexual man who has lost a partner and society doesn't quite have the same sort of established place for if you lost your head, a heterosexual partner or someone that you had been married to. What has it been like to navigate that dynamic?   - Barry Hoyer To be completely honest, it hasn't really. Try to find the right words to talk about this. All of it speaks to my friends or if it speaks to kind of where society has gotten to in general.   - Barry Hoyer But they feel that all of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My, my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work.   - Barry Hoyer Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was and then didn't really assign like, oh, this could have been, you know, if you were a straight married couple. My sympathy might be deeper. Right.   - Barry Hoyer I haven't really experienced any of that, but I know that's not necessarily a common perspective that gets told when it comes to loss.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, it sounds like in some ways, again, an overflow of the sort of company culture you were a part of. And the friend and support system that was there, that that didn't have to be an added trauma or pain on top of what was an already incredibly painful experience.   - Barry Hoyer It's been. They definitely have made it. It's been an easier transition back to work. I kind of have the leeway even still to if I'm having a bad day. You know, just pack up. Take my laptop, go work from somewhere else if I need to. There've been a couple times where I've done that. Where does feel being at work and being around people was just overwhelming. And you can't necessarily predict when this wave of emotions is going to hit.   - Barry Hoyer And when it happens, my my team has been pretty gracious with its kind of acknowledging, like we're gonna get done. We're not necessarily worried about that, but it's, you know, take care of yourself and feel free to, you know, figure work out how it fits into your life.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you are. You are more important than just the tasks you might accomplish in this given afternoon.   - Barry Hoyer It's nice to feel that, though, it's nice to feel a validation about.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. If you were speaking to listeners who would say I've never had a traumatic loss like that. Is there anything that you would want people to understand about what that's like to go through?   - Barry Hoyer I would say. Gosh, a lot. But the person experiencing the loss. There'll be moments where they seem relatively composed that they've got to plan for life and you know, that they still have, you know, things to do in a life to live and they're ready to get back out there. But what comes across on the surface is not always a good indication of what lies beneath.   - Barry Hoyer Mm hmm. And another thing I would encourage listeners to to take away is just kind of I was talking about earlier about how the stages of grief aren't linear and you don't progressed naturally from one to the next. I went out for drinks for trivia night with some friends. About two weeks after I'd gotten back to Denver. And I felt myself having a really good time. To the point where I was laughing Charolette like carefree. And then I started to feel guilty about how great of a time I was having.   - Barry Hoyer That I shouldn't be allowed to have that much fun this close to such a traumatic event. And then I shut down again. And then for the rest of the night, I kind of like slipped into a place of guilt about being out with people and enjoying life. When A.J. can't. Nia.   - Barry Hoyer And that's kind of one of the things that just happens, and I'm sure it looks a little bit crazy to the people around you. But just remember to have the compassion that those moments are going to come and they're going to head out of nowhere and. Just, I don't know, offer a kind word and just be be patient.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, and it's also probably a word to anyone who is going through something like that in their own lives of the importance of patience with oneself in the midst of the journey, which can be its own challenge.   - Barry Hoyer That's a huge challenge. There are times where that night at the brewery with friends, where I was giving myself a hard time for enjoying the company of my friends, and in retrospect, you know, my gosh, I really shouldn't have been so hard on myself and I should have been a little bit more mindful of giving myself some some leeway, some grace to not always have to have the right thing to say or the right thing to do or, you know, have somebody else's expectations of grief placed upon you.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah, then you can keep it. Keep going, please. No, they say no, there have been moments where I feel like. I should be. More depressed and I am I should be sadder than I am, I should be crying all the time. And. But I also feel like those are expectations that other people put on somebody that have had a traumatic event like this happen.   – Liesel Mertes And what happens in private is usually kind of much of a bigger emotional response to what happened than anything I would want to show in public.   - Barry Hoyer Totally. I mean, I tend to be a pretty private person and I want to have like I was making breakfast one morning as it was five forty five in the morning and I was making scrambled eggs and I was listening to the ninety station and a song by The Cranberries came on and I lost it. Yeah, and I had a solid 30 minutes where I couldn't do anything other than, like, remind myself I had to go through a Wayburn decks and.   - Barry Hoyer So those things happen. But just because you're not showing it to everybody all the time doesn't mean that they don't happen.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things I feel like you've had a lot of really helpful insights and obviously have, you know, for months, isn't isn't that long in there in the scheme of things, but have really been reflective of yourself and of grief in the process. Are there other things that you feel like would be important to add that you didn't get a chance to say?   - Barry Hoyer I think it's important to find something that makes you happy in life again. I've always enjoyed cycling. And I remember the first time that I went for a ride after I got back to Denver, we had this day in January that hit 72. And it felt like the perfect day to leave work early and go for a long bike ride.   - Barry Hoyer And it was, you know, off season. I hadn't been riding very much. I only got, I think, twenty five miles in that day. It was a very therapeutic experience. I was able to just shut my brain off and enjoy the scenery around me and enjoy the experience of being on a bike and doing something that I love. That felt good.   - Barry Hoyer And there's also say. This entire experience has made me kind of very contemplate of my own mortality. And after the accident happened, people were very quick to comment on how A.J. always offered them a smile and was always willing to help out. And so many people came forward, the stories of just saying how when they needed something, whether it was a short term loan or help moving or somebody to go talk with him about what had happened. A.J. was always there and it was just always ready to be a support system for so many people. And I feel like that kind of gave me a sense of purpose to try to carry that forward.   - Barry Hoyer And just to make sure that I am kind of honoring his legacy by. Being more compassionate, being more willing to help, being, you know, less frequent, to say no. And just always kind of like rethinking if I have a sharp comment to make. Taking an extra second to pause to make sure, is it really worth seeing? Or is this better held inside? All right. I just want to always make sure that positive energy goes out into the world and I don't want to do anything that contributes anything negative to it.   - Liesel Mertes It is a beautiful movement to carry forward. Yeah, as you honor someone who you love very deeply. Thank you, Barry. I really appreciate the time and being willing to go on to something that's been hard. So thank you. I appreciate it.   - Barry Hoyer I'm happy to. To talk about what happened in. Hopefully will have an impact on somebody.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Barry…   Displays of support in the workplace are so important.An email sharing a memory, easing the path with HR, or having spaces to take off early if the days gets too overwhelming.  All of these things were deeply impactful for Barry.  As was his overall work context, where his presence as a homosexual man was not something that was an aberration or changes how people showed comfort during his time of loss.  When someone returns to work after a loss, be conservative about big, public shows of comfort.Barry described how uncomfortable it made him to have a casual coworker publicly draw attention to him and to his loss.  Grief is unpredictable.Barry describes feeling sad and then happy and then guilty for feeling happy.  If this is you, know that tumultuous emotions are normal.    Thanks to our sponsors, FullStack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting.    OUTRO  

- Seth Morales Those folks have had their eyes closed to this central, frontline workforce. And I think the lights have turned on and many people are starting to realize that this essential frontline workforce that is delivering packages to your front door, making sure that certain type of food or consumer good products are making it to the grocery store or anyone else's household. It it's a priority and it it matters.   INTRO   We are deep into the COVID-19 quarantine.  My thoughts are ranging widely and, a few nights ago, I found myself pondering the spaghetti…all the steps along the way that got it to my front door.  As so many parts of our economy have stalled out, there are still workers packaging and delivering all of the goods that are filling our pantries.  Workers that drive the trucks and deliver the packages.  What is life like for these often under-appreciated front-line workers?   And that is what led me to Seth Morales, the CEO of the Morales Group, a company that provides for the staffing needs of warehouses and hubs throughout the USA.  Seth shares his insights, gleaned from 15 years of serving front-line workers, as well as his own leadership insights.   Before we begin, I want to thank our sponsor, FullStack PEO.  Are you a small business owner or entrepreneur?  The team at FullStack helps navigate and manage your benefits so you can focus on growing your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Connecting with and supporting your people is so important during these upside down times.  With sessions on compassion fatigue, workplace empathy, and communication coaching for downsizing, we empower you to create workplace cultures of support and care.   Now, back to our conversation with Seth Morales.  In addition to his role as CEO of the Morales Group, Seth serves on the board of the Indiana Latino Institute, St. Vincent’s Health System, the Young President’s Association, and True U.  He is also the husband of Jackie   - Liesel Mertes When did you meet your wife, Jackie? Was that 10 years ago? Have you known each other a lot longer than that?   - Seth Morales We've known each other for almost 12 years. We met at work, so we had an office romance scandal.   - Seth Morales You call it whatever you want, but we we met at work. She was hired in as a business development rep or in sales. And I was on the sales team as well. And you kind of just put two and two together, you know, a month or two into her working. I, I pretty much kind of fell over for her. And we dated maybe two months into her work and at Morales Group. And then I went to my dad and I said, "Hey, Dad," because I work with my dad, we're in a family of business.   - Seth Morales And I said, "Hey, would you would you be open if I asked Jackie out on the date?" And he gave me the green light. He just said, "Just don't mess it up because this could end up not so, not so great for both parties." And so, so we dated for a year and then we eventually got engaged and then we got married, think nine months later. So, it's been a good working relationship, but it's also just been an awesome partner that I found just at home and on the field.   - Seth Morales So she's, she's been fantastic.   Jackie and Seth have two sons.    - Seth Morales Sebastian and Matteo and Sebastian or Sebastian is six, Matteo is three. And they're both quite active:  young little guys just doing their thing at home right now. We have two cats, no dogs, no no other pets. And if a gal that helps out around the house, Theresa and I call her Mother Theresa because she's a saint.   - Seth Morales She's amazing. So that's, that's kind of what fills the household today at Casa Morales.   - Liesel Mertes And the Morales Group is a family business that you have transitioned into you. The position of CEO this year. Congratulations. And could you tell listeners who don't know what you do? What some of your mission and just place in the ecosystem of business here is?   - Seth Morales Yeah. Thank you for, for that. Morales Group is a purpose driven company that really, I think. Has its why and place and our why or our mission statement is to build a better future. And we live and breathe that daily, what we do and we do it is, is very similar to a lot of other staff in recruiting companies. So we are a traditional recruiting and temporary agency. So, we provide a lot of different jobs and career paths to folks in the light industrial market.   - Seth Morales So anything that's manufacturing, e-commerce or logistic space, we provide a lot of staff in that space. But I think, most importantly, Morales Group was was founded along the premise of really trying to build a better future for those who are underserved, who maybe are disenfranchised or need just an opportunity. And those that make ten or twelve or fifteen dollars an hour just need a jumpstart. And they need that voice and that kind of partner to help kind of bridge the gap and provide opportunities.   The Morales Group has been living out that mission for fifteen years. In the local Indianapolis area, they have 2,500-3,000 external teammates and they have been expanding to markets like Dallas, Louisville, and Charlotte.    - Liesel Mertes So I think that many times, if you haven't had direct exposure to the world in manufacturing or the sorts of places that have these temporary positions, they can be kind of taken for granted or invisible to people. How, how do those positions contribute to the functioning of the American kind of economy in general? Like what infrastructure that most people just have their eyes closed to? Is that providing?   - Seth Morales That's a really good question. And you mentioned that those folks have had their eyes closed, too. This is central frontline workhorse. And I think the lights have turned on and many people are starting to realize that this essential frontline workforce that is delivering packages to your front door, making sure that certain type of food or consumer good products are making it to the grocery store or anyone else's household. It it's a priority and it, it matters.   The Morales Group is very purposeful in what they call these workers.  - Seth Morales We call them teammates. We don't call them temps or associates. We call them external and internal teammates. And so kind of an internal corporate staff that that it's in the office. And then we have external teammate that, you know, we've got three to four thousand strong on a weekly basis. And so we're, we're really trying to lift up this workforce.   - Seth Morales We see. To serving and being a voice for the workforce and not just settling for any job. We want to eventually get him a better job and into a career. And so we call that ABC any job, better job, career. And so we're trying to take them from any job and really try to build a better future for them. And so that's kind of our mission statement.   - Liesel Mertes So one of your external teammates, can you give me like a like a day in the life of what it's looking like for them right now? Because I imagine that there is you know, if you're maybe even like if you're working on a manufacturing line, you know, can you have six feet of distance?   - Liesel Mertes Like, what are their concerns as they are going into work every day, which are very different than people who, you know, are staying at home?   - Seth Morales That's a that's another great question. I think the day in the life of an essential frontline external teammate that works with Morales Group would look like this. They would be working at a first or second shift in an industrial park. And one of our clients that we support is the Wal-Mart may have a large e-commerce center. And so if you're ordering anything from Wal-Mart from an e-commerce standpoint, there's a good chance that our workforce has been in that building helping fulfill those orders and ship those to your front door.   - Seth Morales But what they do on a day to day basis is, you know, you've got several thousands of people inside a million square feet. And there are some challenges with social distancing. There are concerns about, you know, do you have the right PPE? Are you doing temperature checks if you have a covered case? You know, how long do you shut down for two to scrub and sanitize the facility or the area where you had the positive case.   - Seth Morales And so, we've seen some turnover with some of our frontline as external teammates that, you know, you might catch one, that somebody's on your shift had a positive case. And there's there's just kind of that word of mouth and it spreads. And so you have some churn there. And you understand that.   - Liesel Mertes Have the external realities made it more difficult to recruit people for these positions? Because I imagine there's two parts. There's external uncertainty. I could I could get sick if I go out there in the world. But there's also the economic realities that perhaps people are feeling really. You know, this is the option that's available to me and I need food on the table. How are those conversations feeling within your recruiting pipeline?   - Seth Morales That's well thought out there. You definitely have a two sided reality where there's fear of getting infected.   - Seth Morales And that's real. And you see turn over and you see a number of external teammates apply. Sign up for the opportunity or the job and then not follow through for whatever reason, whether it's fear or, hey, I don't like I didn't like going on that orientation tour because they're just, you know, the distancing isn't there. They don't have the right PPE on. And so that's a challenge for us. It's real.   - Seth Morales But there's also that, you know, frontline essential external teammate that definitely has to put food on the table. And often they live, you know, paycheck to paycheck and they can't just work from home because they don't have a skill set right now to land them a gig like that. And so they do need to work. And it's just it's, it's kind of a sad reality. But at the same time, it's also kind of a noble thing to see them helping kind of keep America running, to keep us up and running with our supply chain. So it's it's an interesting space, especially with, you know, the numbers that have come out over the last week with twenty six million people losing their job over the last thirty or forty five days and the unemployment jumping up to close to 20 percent.   - Seth Morales There's, there's a lot I agree. And it is it really I think it it's staggering. But it's also like, OK, here's here's an opportunity to support, you know, those that maybe do need to work. But at the same time, you got to respect that they're maybe sitting on the sidelines and they're, they're collecting the government stimulus check to offset this period so they can be safe. So it's, it's, it's two sided, but it's a it's a tough kind of situation to be in.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Seth Morales You understand that there's, there's that fear factor. But what we've tried to do is find really good partners that get supporting our external essential teammates. And Wal-Mart is phenomenal at it.   - Seth Morales And I think there's some other partners that do it really, really well.   - Seth Morales We have a few that could use some, some improvement, but they, they have a ton of legitimate concerns.   Seth, his Dad, and Jackie have been trying to get a pulse on those legitimate concerns.  They set up 15 minute Zoom meetings with their workers, when they are done with a shift or off of work   - Seth Morales And I think that's mattered because when you when you take the time to just kind of here and listen and let them know that you're supporting and let him know that, you know, it's it's people, then it's products and service and then it's it's profits.   - Liesel Mertes The phrase people before profits is an evocative one. It sounds really good. I think sometimes people can't embrace that, but not quite know how to actualize that in real time. What are some of the things that you're doing at the Morales Group to live that out lately?   - Seth Morales I think from a Real-Time standpoint, I think being very, very authentic and truthful and very clear with the way you communicate where you stand as a company, you know, we, we did have to do a round of layoffs at the beginning of March.   - Seth Morales And that was super difficult because we haven't done that and in many years. And so it's kind of contradictory to this whole, you know, people before profits. But at the end of the day, you have to think of the greater good and you have to think of, you know, the ship not going down, but parting ways with with those folks that, you know, just didn't, didn't make the cut. And that's tough. And when you, you have to share that reality, it's not easy.   - Seth Morales And I think. In our in our space, I've, I've just been very, very vocal about where we are as a company and tried to give them benchmarks as to if we stay at this point. We should be good if we don't go to this point financially as a company. We're going to be in trouble.   - Seth Morales And I think just being open about that and not using words that I called weasel words like we might could we should maybe think those words are very kind of corporate speak or very kind of wishy washy.   - Seth Morales And what, what we're trying to do is communicate often, communicate clear and be just thoughtful with, you know, the way we're at and, and be very vulnerable. I think at the same time, like it is about having to part ways with teammates or talk through people's fears about, hey, my next to go or hey, are we gonna have another round? That's, that's a tough conversation. But I think being very intentional about that communication, doing it often.   - Seth Morales I've been doing video emails once a week. It's a two-minute video with an update with where we're at instead of a kind of a corporate sounding email.   - Liesel Mertes So you're demonstrating intentional…by those regular check ins, are you noticing as you're as you're having these calls like common themes or concerns that people are bringing up, has it changed, you know, as the weeks have dragged on or what have you been hearing?   - Seth Morales The external teammates have definitely you've seen kind of that mental health and that fatigue about, hey, could I get a positive case as we get more and more people inside this manufacturing plant or warehouse, the chances of that going up or are higher.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned companies like Wal-Mart. They're doing a really great job of caring for their people. What are some of the things that they're doing that really catch your attention as well? I mean, you're going above and beyond.   - Seth Morales I mean, I think there's two things that come to my mind. First, there's obviously the, the monetary factor and traditionally being a higher paying wage and painful Indiana. I think they typically pay around seventeen dollars an hour for a warehouse position.   - Seth Morales That's, that's fairly competitive for that market. They've definitely up their game and they've, they've increased that wage to closer to twenty dollars an hour. I think it's 19 something per hour. And so they've done kind of a like a bonus and a pay increase, which we all know that, you know, pay isn't the only factor, but what they've also done, I think, on a just more sustainable making sure that they're empathetic is they've been really good about lifting up and listening to a lot of the external teammates and these kind of small huddles where they've got, you know, a small group of people and they're doing it daily and they're very proactive with the way they've come up with protocol that clean the facility.   - Seth Morales I haven't seen a better plan than what Wal-Mart has rolled out, and they're just super aggressive. If there is a case they shut down for two and a half, three days, they clean the entire plant, they bring in these fog machines. They're just they're extremely tedious about how they go, about making sure that that that cleanliness factor is there. So that's been good. So I think, a, they listen they're empathetic with some of these huddles.   - Seth Morales B, they've got a very stringent plan to clean up. And then C, I think the pay rates have been adjusted to kind of reflect helping kind of compensate for those that are stepping up during this time. So that's what we've seen from them. It's you know, it's, it's not it's not always good when there's still, like challenges. We still have turnover, but they've been a good, I think, partner to step up in this time.   - Liesel Mertes And without naming names, specific partners, when you think of people within your network, you think man like this is just something that it's, it's not supporting our people out like this is this is a damaging behavior, a way of dealing people. What are some of those problem behaviors that come to mind?   - Seth Morales We see them very hesitant to shut down operations. We see them dragging their feet on what type of protocol they really like, step up and clean the facility. So there's, there's that just unwillingness to sacrifice the bottom line and focus more on just what's best for the shareholder, not for kind of the human factor.   - Seth Morales So we do have some partners like that. They've been a little bit of a pain in the butt.   - Liesel Mertes What would you say for someone, you know, for listeners who, they have never worked in temp work or manufacturing, and they have kind of a just a fuzzy idea of what that might be like.   - Liesel Mertes What would you want them to know about some of the teammates, whether it's with the Morales Group or, you know, across the country, the people who are keeping America running right now?   - Seth Morales I think the one thing that comes to my mind that I'd want me to know about our external teammates that are considered temp associates. You know, they, they, too, want to build a better future. And they, too. Don't want to just sit on a couch and collect a check.   - Seth Morales They, they have aspirations of providing for their family and they really want to find a way to make an impact. A lot of times these folks are unskilled and they are hungry to skill up, but they don't necessarily have that kind of traditional pathway that maybe some of us have been fortunate enough to take advantage of. And so I think they need an advocate. They need a voice.   MUSICIAL TRANSITION   - Seth Morales We folks support a lot of people from just all over the world who are immigrants or migrants and those that just really want to build a better future and build upon the American dream. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I get our workforce when you when you're in our space. There's, there's challenges with you know, there's, there's baggage.   - Seth Morales There's, there's just it's a life. But they definitely still want an advocate. They step definitely still have the same desires. They just need more cheerleaders and coaches to lift them up and support them.   - Seth Morales And so I think just. I would encourage everyone to be a little bit more open to some of the cultural differences that we see with our work force. And then also, I think just being respectful of, hey, this workforce is essential. And, you know, you talk about that, the tagline America runs on Dunkin. Well, I think America runs on, you know, that essential frontline teammate. And I am I am very, very proud.   - Liesel Mertes If there are listeners right now that we're hearing, maybe they're opening themselves up to imagining the reality of some of these frontline people who are risking a lot to show up each day to help keep things running. And they say, wow, you know, I I want to help support these people. I want to help partner with organizations or come alongside them. Where are some good places for them to go with their their time or their money?   - Seth Morales I think there's a few ways, you know, I think obviously any type of e-commerce product or anything that's shipped to your front door. Please keep continue to press and click buy and keep those, those orders up and run. And that definitely helps with the overall economy and, and gets our, our teammates kind of active and employed.   - Seth Morales But I think when we think about how we provide more just, I think, respect and gratitude towards those that are on the front lines.   - Liesel Mertes Are there any other things that you feel like I'm putting to talk about and what the Morales Group is doing to support people right now that I haven't had a chance to ask you about?   - Seth Morales I think you've, you've covered a lot of it, but one thing that I would just continue to add upon is just.   - Seth Morales As those that might be listening today are your leader within an organization. I think there's no better time than now to be human and real and authentic and to really think through this. This is just. What's going on with, with your business and how you can serve in a way that's just decent? This is just a great opportunity.   - Seth Morales People remember will definitely remember how you made them feel during this time and how you either supported them or didn't. And it's just it's a great opportunity, I think, for leaders to step up and be very authentic and genuine.   - Seth Morales And, you know, lots of times, especially for people who rise to the level of executive leadership. Vulnerability is not a skill that has been prized in their rise to influence. As you think about what it's like for you to even stand on the brink and think, who am I going to be like? Am I going to be out there and vulnerable in my communication? What like what can get in the way of that? And what are things that you anchor on?   - Seth Morales Remind yourself of that. Help you push to really embracing a more vulnerable style of leadership. I think about our core values and our core values are be humble, be courageous and be a light and be in a light. Being courageous and being, you know, just showing humility during a time like this. I think all too often I think leaders, you know, have this kind of. Mindset that they have to act and operate in a certain manner and they can't truly be themselves.   - Seth Morales And about a year and three and I'm an achiever. And there's often times where I catch myself wanting to look the part and achieve and obtain all these great accolades. But at the end of the day, I think what people are really, truly looking for, people that can be trusted, that are authentic about what they share.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three takeaways from my conversation with Seth I want to grow in my appreciation of the hourly workers that are keeping our economy running.They are essential and often overlooked.  In cultivating appreciation, start with something basic:  maybe pausing to give genuine thanks and a good tip to your Instacart shopper or the delivery person.  I hope that this time of need plants seeds of gratitude that continue to bear fruit when our economy is again running at full-steam and these workers could once again fade into the background.  Communication matters.At the Morales Group, that looks like regular check-ins and avoiding “weasel words”.  Be clear and be human in your communication.  Video communication has the added benefit of truly humanizing your words in a way that email does not. As Seth said, people will remember how you treated them.Put a radical focus on cultivating empathy and care…and, as Seth mentioned, this oftentimes means leading with your own vulnerability.  What does it look like to be human and vulnerable with the people you interact with today?   Thanks to your sponsors, FullStack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting.   OUTRO

Serena Suh The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event.  But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.   Serena Suh Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.   INTRO On this episode of the Handle With Care podcast, COVID-19 edition, I am talking to Serena Suh.  Serena lives and works in the restaurant industry in Chicago.  Or at least she did until the coronavirus struck.  Serena’s story and perspective is important:  as a part of the restaurant industry, she gives voice to the stories of so many.  Her story is also important because she is an advocate for meaningful, structural change on behalf of restaurant workers.   Before we begin, I want to thank our sponsor, FullStack PEO.  How are you expressing care for your employees during this time of disruption?  As health is top of mind, FullStack can helping, especially if you are a small business owner.  FullStack PEO helps to manage your member benefits, releasing you to focus your attention on the other parts of running your business.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Workplace Empathy has never been as important on as wide of a scale as it is now.  Handle with Care Consulting offers trainings on compassion fatigue, how to create cultures of care, and communication coaching for downsizing.    Back to the podcast.  Serena loves living in Chicago   Serena Suh I love Chicago because it feels like a small town in a big city. So. In my experience, people smile at you. People ask you how you're doing. You can meet random people on public transportation, which I don't think is the case in a lot of other cities, architecturally beautiful.      Serena is also a photographer and a writer.  My first contact with Serena was through a compelling piece she published in Medium , which I read on Facebook.  I will include a link to the article in the show notes.  Serena is also making a documentary film about restaurant workers in Chicago.  She is an eloquent advocate for those affected by restaurant closures and, after reading her post, I knew I wanted her to share with you, the Handlw with Care listening audience.   Serena Suh And there are some, you know, collective struggles, and I think as someone who studied philosophy and anthropology, I can kind of see those. A bit clearer and clearer, maybe or maybe my attention just goes to some of the social or like social like inconsistencies or maybe, maybe some injustices that I see.   Serena Suh So I would love to see like reform in the industry or something I'm really passionate about. Especially regarding. Providing employee rights, some kind of standard of living for people.   After graduating from college, Serena went to work for a perfume compounder.  But she, ultimately, wanted to move in a direction that was in line with her dreams   - Serena Suh Being a chef was a dream since I was 10 years old. So I just ended up cold emailing a bunch of shops in Chicago and eventually one took me and I was like cooking at a restaurant in Chicago for about half a year before I joined a restaurant group. And I've been there since. OK. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What is especially in the news cycle and at all of us are looking and seeing our neighborhood restaurants close for someone who has not worked like as a line chef?   - Liesel Mertes What, what is the what is the daily ness of that like? And is it what would eat? No, we're talking economics a lot.   - Liesel Mertes Is it hard to get by as a line chef? Are you living like day to day?   - Serena Suh Yeah, definitely. So like Cook, it's it's really interesting. They're. It is a skills job, so you get better with time and you do get gain more expertise on like, how do you do your job?.   - Serena Suh Well, and you learn a lot on the job. But. That doesn't really have to do anything with your pay. There's already a standard determine pay and it's basically sub minimum wage. So even if you go to like a Michelin star restaurant, most line cooks are getting just one or two dollars over minimum wage in the city of Chicago.   - Serena Suh I think the average hourly pay of line cooks is $14 an hour. And that varies with each restaurant group. Like am I allowed to mention specific restaurant groups? Sure. So, for example, Hog Salt is a big restaurant group in Chicago. They're paying their employees around $18 an hour on average. But that really depends on each restaurant group. Each restaurant in and with their capacities are. So mineshafts definitely are living paycheck to paycheck. For my experience. I don't know anyone who's living comfortably.   - Liesel Mertes So I imagine this is a particular blow to people who already were hanging on with a pretty thin margin.   - Serena Suh Definitely, definitely. They're, from my experience.   - Serena Suh When I was working as a line cook and wanting to become a chef. Part of why I. It was because I had too many too much student loans and I just couldn't. I just couldn't live paying student loans and paying rent and finding time even for like a coffee or finding an extra and got me over a cup of coffee a week.   - Serena Suh I just didn't see a future for myself in one if I continued on that route. I think it's similar for other cuts as well. A lot of folks I know have graduated from or universities and decided to pursue cooking or they want the culinary school. So we're all kind of in the same boat as a lot of other Americans. We all have a student that we all have bills to pay. So having no income definitely takes a toll on everyone in the industry.   - Liesel Mertes I want to hear more about that. Give me a little background you mentioned. This has been a dream since I was 10. For you, for other people who with these four year degrees of this culinary school background, what did you just love about being in the restaurant business? Tell me some of the joy for me. This is just great moments.   - Serena Suh Well, what I love about…this is a everyone and I don't want to romanticize or idealize the situation because there are some people who are in the industry because they have no other choice or no skills. But I think that in the best form, people and cooks and chefs that I've known really just love the art of hospitality and bringing people joy in the day to day. And I think there's something so humbling about that, that not my chefs have, have a lot of pride and like big egos, they're kind of known for that.   - Serena Suh But I think at the end of the day, they really do love feeding people and kind of wowing people and showing people a little bit of magic in their day to day. So, for instance, I have a story to tell. Yes, but.   - Serena Suh So, for instance, when I was working at the restaurant, it's a Michelin star restaurant. So we had it kind of felt like being in the military where every second mattered. And you were going against the clock constantly.   - Serena Suh And. You don't get time to like rest or time for yourself and you're always stressed.   - Serena Suh But during service, I could kind of interact with the guests sometimes because you would have to have a couple of minutes during service, especially on a slow day. And it was an open kitchen so I could turn around and talk to guests at the bar. And at the time, we had an orange give me a green almond sorbet, which is essentially a sorbet that was molded into like a like a circle and then had shaved green almonds on top with sugar twirls and saffron coated sugar.   - Serena Suh And it turned around. I asked one of the guests, like. How he like the desert and turns out that he was he grew up in Lebanon and green almonds are native or indigenous to the Mediterranean area. You saying like, wow, this like totally brought me back to my childhood because when I was younger, I used to eat green almonds off the trees with like salt with my grandparents and my parents. And this was just like a totally different way to experience green almonds.   - Serena Suh I thought this is like very meaningful to me. And I truly think that it's moments like that that chefs, like, love to elevate and recreate and bring to people. And I find it very. They just run. Yeah, just for a human perspective, I like respect people in hospitality so much because of that. But like without a lot of payoff. But they're willing to give so much of their time and their bodies and their creativity to others and to bringing those embody moments of connection.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And what I hear in a really beautiful way. So, okay, we've had this. These reverberations throughout so many areas of society. Can you tell me? Like what? What did it look like?   I’d like to jump in and say that I recorded this a few weeks ago, but the story and impact is still so important, even if the timeline has shifted.    - Serena Suh Yeah. There's a huge number of people being affected. I mean, in the United States alone, there's fifteen point six million. I think it's the number that I thought today. People be employed in the restaurant industry and they're all being affected right now. So our company is just one of many, many like restaurant food in the United States and in Chicago and not even restaurant groups, but independent venues being affected. So, yeah. Quickly, just a couple days later, I started getting a bit worried.   - Serena Suh I started contacting my managers and asking like, hey, can I. Should I accept, expect a layoff so that I can know and be prepared.   - Serena Suh And even at the time, even three days before I got laid off, my manager was like, probably fine, I'll keep you updated. So it really was. Each day had a new kind of waterfall of events that none of us was prepared for. And then on Sunday, I think on the 15th.   - Serena Suh You got an email from our ownership saying this is the last thing that we want to do with very heavy, heavy hearts that we're going to furlough everyone in the company except just a few. And they're doing everything that they can right now. But.   - Serena Suh So was just in a matter of five days where it went from there working from home and then, OK, everyone pays getting cut. Everyone's hours are getting cut and then everyone's being furloughed. So no one's getting paid.   - Liesel Mertes What a tumultuous couple of days. I imagine that that was just a roller coaster of uncertainty. How has it felt in the aftermath? What are the things that are keeping you up at night?   - Serena Suh Yeah. Well, I think. I think definitely. For me personally, I'm less worried about myself, in the sense that I think I personally have a decent, a really awesome community that I can rely on. But. There are some people with like families, you know, a lot of people that I knew was in contact with in the restaurant group.   - Serena Suh I believe over half of the night could even be. A majority of the employees in the restaurant industry are over 35, so it means that it's not just like a transition or transition job for a lot of people. It's a career. It's their main means of income. So people with families work in the service industry. And it's not just like a recent college grad trying to pay rent. You know, it's people with medical bills and tuition and rent and all that stuff in content.   - Serena Suh So I really worry for those people, especially families, couples who work in the restaurant industry because they can't imagine. Losing both of both incomes in a matter of days and then having to worry about how you're going to support your family.   - Serena Suh And I also worry for people without. Skills to work other jobs. For instance, people who've always been in the culinary industry since they're like McSteamy, wonderful energy or maybe didn't go to court is going to know how to do anything else like those.   - Serena Suh Those people need help, like transitioning into different industries that they need. And I don't know if that's an option that that's an available resource right now. Oh, yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I hear the ripple effects into people's lives. And I think what you said is particularly a learning for me, because sometimes we can think, oh, yeah, you know, people they work in restaurants when they graduated from college or when they're getting their master's degree. But to put numbers to it and give a more realistic face to the people who are being affected.   - Liesel Mertes When you talk about your support system on a personal level, what has been particularly meaningful to you over the last two weeks as people have supported you and reached out in the midst of physical distancing?   - Serena Suh Definitely. All I think two things try me saying like, hey, I I've been seeing the news and what's going on in the restaurant industry. I'm so sorry. Please let me know. I can be here for you. That is enough for me. And I suddenly got. It kind of felt like I was standing in front of like an audience. And then I saw my friends and like I was able to put faces on to like who I could rely on at this time.   - Serena Suh So that was awesome. I've had friends straight up. Just send money. Money. And I didn't ask for it. I did a. I didn't tell anyone that I was financially struggling, but. People who were not this are not being affected by this and who knew that I was in the restaurant industry and I was expressing that like people in the industry is struggling, survive and then decided to act on it like that has been. Really, really touching.   - Serena Suh And I think that. Action is like the best way to help people right now. And to show that you're there for them, whether that's. Calling your representatives, they're a bunch of small business relief bills that are kind of on the line right now. You think that Illinois is due for one today?   - Liesel Mertes And yet, Serena, a little bit more because you've, you've thought on a personal level, but you've also published, we’ll link the article with this and done some thinking about on a structural level how to allocate support and in the midst of people sitting at home wondering what they should do.   - Liesel Mertes Let me give you a segue. Tell us more about some of the structural things that are going on.   - Serena Suh Yes. So as soon as the governor announced that all small businesses were going to be closed, at least for regular service, a bunch of chefs, chef owners in Chicago got together and kind of basically wrote a public letter to the governor asking for support in the form of a payroll tax. Give me to make sure that I got. What they send. Word for word. I doubt. So a large group of independent chefs in Chicago got together and they've asked for immediate support of emergency unemployment benefits to all hourly and salaried workers and to eliminate all payroll tax and to call for rent and loan abatements for workers impacted in the restaurant industry as well as restaurants themselves.   - Serena Suh That lowers an immediate emergency action, steps that restaurant owners have asked for, at least in Illinois.   As an update, restaurants are now specifically lobbying Congress for legislation to provide relief to their industry, especially after the stop-and-go, limited launch of the PPP Act.    - Serena Suh And I know there are similar movements in different states as well. There are some restaurant associations, such as in Illinois, the Illinois Restaurant Association, that's working to advocate to Congress to pass business relief bills. So in Illinois, specifically, they're calling for a 350 billion dollars for small business relief and hundred billion dollars for unemployment insurance. And so there's just like.   - Serena Suh Immediate thing, kind of to put out the fire, essentially, because everyone kind of feels like they're burning right now. Small business owners have very intimate relationships with their employees. I think in good cases. And it really does put emotional and spiritual toll on people to have to let people go knowing that they don't have a safety net.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things that come to mind, whether that is ordering takeout or other measures that are helpful right now for people saying, I care. I don't know what to do?   - Serena Suh For sure. I would say, yeah, if you know someone in the restaurant industry or in the service industry or to be honest. Any client facing industry, because with the virus being a kind of person to person having a person to person spread. Anyone who is in, whether it's hair, entertainment or tourism, all those industries are affected.   - Serena Suh So if you have a close friend or acquaintance that, you know is stuck in that rut. I would say reaching out for emotional support or possibly the financial support and an understanding that it is difficult for people to ask for financial support in this time. I think that we all kind of. Have. A desire to be self-sustaining, so I think be empathetic to that is very important. And restaurants in particular. For restaurants who are offering carried out.   - Serena Suh I think it's important to understand that it really is just. To make sure that they can stay open through all of this and that at the end of this pandemic that there will be something to come back to. It's not guaranteed that. That there will be that all restaurants will survive this essentially still carrying out, buying gift cards. Although things are extremely helpful and important, there are some restaurants that have even started GO-FUND Me’s for their employees.   – Serena Suh The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event.   - Serena Suh But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.   - Serena Suh Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.   - Serena Suh So I hope that. That there will be a new sense of awareness about these issues. And if the documentary does like flour into something I can, I would love to share. But if it doesn't, I think that's a big message. And the takeaway from this event.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Serena: Serena said that “Action is the best way to help people right now.”Do you love your favorite local restaurant that has had to close?  Do you have a friend that has been impacted by the lay-offs?  Take time to call your representative and say that you care about specific legislation that provides funds and reform to the restaurant industry.  I know that I have called my representatives multiple times over the last few weeks.  After all, that is what they are there for in a representative democracy.  And you can read more in Serena’s article, which I have linked in the show notes.  Taking time to educate yourself about the inequities in the system is its own form of empathy and care. Reach out to those that have been affected.Serena said how much a call or a text meant.  Send money.I appreciate that Serena was really up front about how helpful money has been.  Don’t know how to spend your relief payment from the government?  How about sending some of it to the waitress or chef you know that has been laid off?   Thanks again to our sponsors, Fullstack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting for your support.  Together, lets put empathy to work.   OUTRO Link to Medium Article: https://medium.com/@serenajsuh/covid-19-outbreak-crisis-in-restaurants-46a5a4d6da08

- David Mills But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too.   INTRO   This is a special, COVID-19 edition of the Handle with Care podcast.  In these unstable times, we are shining light on stories and experiences that will, hopefully, open your perspective to yourself and others.   Today, I am welcoming back a friend of the show, David Mills.  David was a guest in the summer of last year.  He talked about his journey through divorce, depression, and alcoholism.  If you missed the episode, go back and listen after you finish this listening to his one.  His reflections are honest and generous and insightful and I’ve welcomed him back to talk about what it has been like to stay sober and find emotional stability during this time of social isolation.    As you scroll through Facebook or any social media feed, you will see people talking about the necessity of a glass of wine at the end of the day, or in the middle of the day, or with their breakfast.  Alcohol stores are classified as an essential business.  And, whether it is alcohol or binge watching or baking, we are all finding ways tt cope with our inner monologue during a time of tremendous stress.    Before we jump in, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStak PEO is a friend of the podcast and a great group of people.  FullStack provides benefits and support to small businesses and entrepreneurs.  In times of uncertainty, making sure your people are taken care of is so essential.  FullStack can help.  We are also sponsored by Motivosity, an employee-engagement platform that brings fun and gratitude to your workspace.   I interviewed David at the close of March, two weeks into the quarantine.  Like so many of you, I was navigating children and work, taking refuge in my closet to record our session.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, no, no, no. It had been it has been. As we've waited for you, I've had Magnus come in. We been being like, Ada says that she has to practice for basketball, but she doesn't even play basketball. And I just want to be alone. I've been cooped up in the house. I don't want her to be in the yard and be like Magnus. She's seen me hard with you and him be like.   - Liesel Mertes But I and her being like, really sassy about controlling the music because that's the streaming i-Pad. But the younger kids are watching Disney Plus, which we got for COVID-19. On the other i-Pad. So I just let it say I was not clairvoyant, but merely to do this right. That was already present in the home.   David Mills Well, either way you come across looking as a pretty good mother.   Liesel Mertes Oh, well, thank you so much.   – David Mills Oh, by the way, I hope you don't think that we're going to start without me saying happy birthday. Thank you.   - Liesel Mertes I was going to start commiserating about my birthday.   - David Mills Well, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to sing because I don't want to like see or they're subscription numbers plummet   - Liesel Mertes But it it does feel nice that you wish me happy birthday. And I didn't press record, but I'll probably cut, you know, this sort of like small talk.   - David Mills But just you know, I think this is about people are coming out more lethal might they might like the idea that I'm cut. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to pivot more.   - Liesel Mertes It is obviously a corona virus birthday. And some people handle that with remarkable, you know, like nonchalance. I am a big birthday person. Like this would be my birthday.   - Liesel Mertes It's also a global economic social crisis. How are things for you?   - David Mills Wow. Yeah. Well, things are OK. Life has just slowed down so suddenly, which I think has been hard for all of us to adjust to, and I think what causes the most anxiety when I can name it is just, you know, I like knowing when the end of things are going to be.   - David Mills I like being able to have a plan.   - David Mills I think we talked about before and this is a crisis that you can plan for and you can plan contingencies for an. Do you still have no idea when it's gonna end? So that's. That's that's been a key source of anxiety for me and I suspect a lot of other people, too. I know. I will say, you know, it's been.   - David Mills It's great. It's great to have the technology that we have. It's great to have Zoom. It's great to have face time. It's great to be able to connect with people and have people checking in on you, and especially as you are on the path to sobriety. But nothing can really replace, you know, the the Face-To-Face connections, at least for me.   - David Mills So it has so you know, but just by the nature of things felt more isolating than usual. And certainly the urge to drink for me, which frankly was for a couple of months pretty low, has been really strong. I think that just left alone in a house with no one else and my own thoughts. It can be a can be a dangerous place for me. So I'm sure we'll talk about some of the things that I tried to do to fight that.   - David Mills But the urge has been real. And I suspect that that's true for a lot of people, whether they're actively in recovery or maybe I've just been trying to drink less this year, drink more in moderation. But this has been a really trying time for them. Yeah. And I, I really feel the weight of that collectively and individually.   - Liesel Mertes And today is my birthday. But it is also a noteworthy day for you. Tell us about your six months.   - David Mills Yeah. So it's a day and sometimes I'm better at tracking this than others. But honestly, like I texted you. You're the first person I told. I was like, oh, yeah. Today's going to be my sixth anniversary. I just looked up on my little app that I have.   - David Mills So it felt really good. I went for a long walk this morning and some nature preserves not too far from the city.   - David Mills And I just had a lot of time to reflect and could feel, though, that the first signs of spring, the melting snow, the muddy boots, you know, the snow falling from the branches and the birds were really loud, which I really appreciated.   - David Mills So it was it was a it was a quiet but meaningful way to celebrate. There have been weeks within the past six months when I have thought about drinking in my heart, I know those are especially dangerous times. But there have also been. A lot of. A lot of shaking hands, a lot of night sweats, a lot of really hard days to stay sober.   - David Mills So I'm really grateful I don't take it for granted. And, you know, I've, I've made it up further than six months before and fallen off. So I don't I. It was a good reminder and reflection for me this morning to be especially vigilant in these times.   - Liesel Mertes So, I imagine for people that some of them some of the support, the in-person support systems of things like AA meetings or community touchpoints that now they don't have access to because of this physical destiny distancing that that is a particular gap. Has that been a part of your journey with sobriety and have you felt that gap? Absolutely.   - David Mills And I will say that at least the Chicago a network has been fantastic about getting Zoom meetings up really quickly like I participated. And a Twelve Steps meeting this morning. I'm going to participate in one tonight. They just e-mail you at the code and you can sign it. It's lovely. And I suspect that that's being replicated in AA chapters all across the country. And if you just go online to your local chapter, you'll get all of that information. But there is.   - David Mills There is something really powerful about being actually in the room, surrounded by people from all walks of life, all races and religions who share this uniquely common struggle and sing, sing the way that they might be carrying on their shoulders and seeing the way that they lift the weight of other shoulders is something that can't fully be replicated in Zoom. So it's not perfect. But I am really thankful that there are these advances in technology which allow us to have even a meetings remotely.   - David Mills It's really it's really incredible and I'm sure there's people out there using Zoom for some really like creepy shit.   - David Mills But it's a good day. It is a good use of that.   - David Mills So that's been really helpful. You know, I have to just also acknowledge that. I have over the last year been really forced to get better at not isolating. When I'm really depressed, I tend to isolate when I'm really manic. I tend to isolate this because I don't slow down and. That's something that I've had to unlearn over the past year, and what I've learned in the process is that I have a really stacked team of a supportive mother, father, stepmother, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins and that's just my blood relatives that's not even accounting for the amazing friends that have reached out to me.   - David Mills And I I I know that everybody's situation is different and not everybody has a whole roster of people that are coming for them and they can come to. But I promise you, there's someone and if there's not you no, I don't know. Reach out to me. Yeah, because the. You'll be grateful not only for not being isolated yourself, but I promise you that the people you love will be able to sleep a lot easier and have a lot less stress in their lives, too.   - Liesel Mertes I'm hearing and you saying that and talking about your support system is that it's been really meaningful. People who have proactively reached out to you in the midst of a time of a lot of social isolation. What does that look like as they've reached out to you?   - David Mills You know, it's a lot of text messages. It's a lot of calling me. And if I don't pick up calling me again, it's which I think speaks to the. To the high caliber of people that I have in my life, it's a lot of. Face timing with family or, you know, right now I don't have Atticus with me. He's with his mother and her parents in Wisconsin, which is great because it's far more isolated. And he.   - David Mills It's a great place for him to be, at least for these couple of weeks. So that's been especially as isolating as well, but yeah, you know, daily face time conversations with Atticus, we're even gonna start doing some workouts together in the morning that him and his mom have been doing and going over some of his lesson plans together. So.   - David Mills I guess we're all like we're all learning to adapt to the responsibilities that we have. Either vocationally or through the bond of love in new ways, and I'm struggling through that just as much as anyone and I don't have it all figured out. But I do know that the less I isolate, the more likely I am to stay level and to stay sober.   - David Mills So I would just maybe also add that, you know, when this quarantine kind of started, I was really entering like a pretty manic phase. So it was it was hard for me to have all of this energy and feel like, as I often do, a manic phase. It's like I can just go, go and go without sleep. I have no place to expend that acceptance like my own apartment, which leads to a really thoroughly cleaned and redecorated and redecorated again apartment.   - David Mills But I can also feel. Like, there's just too much going on inside of me to possibly let out in a single building. You know what I mean? And.   - David Mills Like, you can go on walks, you can go on rides when it's not snowing.   - David Mills Just feeling as trapped as I have in the apartment has certainly been the key part of like feeling like this is one of the hardest stretches to make you well and.   - David Mills You know, so many of us in our different ways are doing our own emotional, psychological recalibration in real time, you know, like hourly of try. What is that?   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that there are powerful aspects of the things you say to yourself or what you do to build resiliency in the four walls of your apartment. What has that? What have you learned about that conversation with yourself?   - David Mills That's a good question. Well, you know, I I should say that. One thing that has also helped this just came to mind is that I'm like it. I realize it would be easy for me just to take a few weeks off of therapy right now, but my therapist and I have. Setup Zoom meetings, so you even just today, like a couple hours ago, I was it was, you know, video chatting with my therapist for an hour, and that's something that really helps because, you know, a gives me.   - David Mills The space to take control over my drinking problem. Therapy is where I can go to get the tools that I need to address the narratives that would tell me that I'm not enough with tell me that.   - David Mills I'm not going to rise up further than I have that I'm destined to. You know, be losing the fight, those narratives are wrong and therapy is the place where I can talk about the underlying trauma that led to them and feeds them and get to the practical tools that I need to develop a more helpful internal dialogue. One that is reflective of where I've come from, one that's reflective of where I want to go and one that's reflective of my own strengths and honesty without being overly critical of my own weaknesses.   - David Mills If that makes sense. So for me.   - David Mills That just speaks these these past two weeks of really just also reinforce in me the need to be in consistent therapy. And. To not just think that a one prong or two-pronged approach is enough. So, yeah, I I that kind of address your question.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, it does. Yeah. I appreciate the. Especially confronting that messages of I am not enough. And just to extrapolate all of it. So so you're in like you're in your space. You're feeling overwhelmed by. Anxiety or fear or desperate, you know, all the things that could flood any of us in that moment. You have an awareness of where those thoughts have taken you in the past. What sorts of things are you saying or doing for yourself in those moments where you feel like I'm on the edge of overwhelm here?   - David Mills Yeah, that's a really good question, and I'm glad you asked that because I actually have an answer for it. Those are my favorite questions.   - David Mills I used to be like a really avid reader. I would just read anything from the time I was a kid all all growing up. But that's, that's really fallen off. So over the past couple of weeks, I've really like especially when my my brain is truly feels unable to slow down. I guess my immediate thought was like, OK, I'm trapped in this place. My brain can't slow down. Can I put it to use to like spark some creative joy inside of myself or to like gain some knowledge of some kind which might benefit me in some way?   - David Mills And really, what that ended up looking like is this reading all the books that I have on hand so far, I think I've read just looking at the stack. Now it looks like I've read re-read The Odyssey, read Little Women Again, classic, beautiful, great. Read a book of Irish love poetry. Don't recommend that if you're single and started in on a book called Founding, Founding Mothers and Fathers, which is about. The gender played a role in forming early American society.   - David Mills Not relevant. Anyways, I've read it. I've read a lot and that's really helped slow my mind down and also provided me a means of escape because like, I can't fully, directly relate to any of the characters in the US. Like, that's it's it's not a world which I inhabit. So. Just like, oh, and the return of Sherlock Holmes is the other one that I read, like, you know, like I don't I don't live in that period of England.   - David Mills That's a it's a means of escape for me. So that's been that's been a really helpful thing. And then also I've just been toiling away in the woodshop. Just kind of building and sanding and staining for a couple hours a night. And I have to watch myself because it's easy to be out there for four or five hours before you know it. It's like 2:00 in the morning.   - David Mills But those things have been really helpful. So I guess, you know.   - David Mills Anything you can do to spark creative joy in yourself or maybe bring a little bit of restoration, whether it's restoration to your mind through the written word or its restoration to know something you're refinishing or something you're building. That can be it can be a really powerful tool, at least for me. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes As you so I I can see the like national data about things like alcohol sales being through the roof right now, which is not inherently bad, but also a sign of how people are funneling these unwieldy feelings of being out of control. What word would you have, particularly for someone who is walking a hard journey of sobriety, or perhaps they're at a point where they're just beginning to take stock and say, I'm drinking quite a lot. What words of insight would you offer?   - David Mills I don't know if they're different for those two groups or general. I. I'm thinking back before I answer. I'm just thinking back. And like some of the things that like I've. Learned through a and through therapy, and that's, you know, I didn't. The drinking was never the problem. There were. Things underneath of it that made me want to drink, I used drinking to medicate when I was manic to slow my thoughts down. I use it as a motivator.   - David Mills When I was depressed to get out of bed. I use that in all circumstances to dull and soften and maybe even a race momentarily, the edges and parts of myself.   - David Mills That felt really unlovable. So I guess what I would say to either of those groups is. Your sobriety. Or your drinking are not the most interesting thing about you. There's so much light and so few. That is not. In any way connected to alcohol. And it can be really easy in these moments when you're trapped. In a place, whether by yourself or with loved ones or with roommates or whoever. To feel a more urgent need to do all the edges of yourself but seem hard to live with.   - David Mills Either just in isolation or in close proximity to others. You don't need to do that. That's, that's what I would say, you just don't you don't need to. There are ways. To live and to the parts of yourself that you don't love yet. That don't involve doling your census. That involve becoming more and not. Suppressing and becoming less or. Feeling like you can only be free and likable under the influence. And I know that's really easy to say and it's taken me a long time to even begin to live.   - David Mills But I promise you, anyone who's hearing this. There are absolutely incredible things about you that other people see that you don't see. So be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself, because there's always gonna be parts of yourself that you personally you don't feel like you can fully with. And there's a lot of ways to address that. Alcohol is one of the ways. There are a lot of other ways, too. There's a lot of things you can do.   - David Mills There's a long there's a long winded answer, I don't know, maybe since it did.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you. That's a good word, David. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes So. Yeah. Any funny things you've discovered about yourself or your habits in the midst of living in isolation? Sure.   - David Mills I mean, I've I've pretty much known. The type of the type of human I am when it comes to living by myself for a while, but I. Nothing really nothing really, truly funny. But I did have this absolute epiphany. Like nothing I've ever had yesterday as I was doing the dishes, because I have this tendency to absolutely let my sink overflowing before I tackle the dishes. It is the one thing that just like starting it causes me such anxiety.   - David Mills And then I have this epiphany yesterday and I'm like, if I only had two plates out. And I got rid of my other plates or put them away in stores, but they weren't easy to get to. I would.   - David Mills The reason I do this because I have like twelve plates, because every time my mother visits she brings more kitchenware, like not to blame my mom.   - David Mills But thanks mom.   - David Mills That's that that's a I've also discovered that I. It's, it's nice to have a plant to talk to at least. And I wish I would have. I wish I would have heeded advocacies, many requests to get a cat or something. But I think one positive benefit for Atticus is coming out of this could be a pet.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - David Mills It is hard. I will say, you know, not having Atticus there to not have like some living thing depending on me for more than water which is all at once.   - Liesel Mertes Well and I do like just on the human level. I hear that. I know that being a dad and being a good dad, Atticus is a huge part of who you are. And I imagine that that is its own like sacrifice and sadness right now. So sorry.   - David Mills Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. All right.   - David Mills Well, I don't know. I haven't learned anything else really, truly funny about myself. Yeah. Now. I've. I'm kind of sick of myself, actually.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections after my conversation with David:   If you know someone that is living with alcoholism or walking a journey of sobriety, reach out and check in with them.Social support is especially important for David…and sometimes people in his support network have to reach out more than once.  Practice persistence in your care.  David has been directing his energy into creative outlets like woodworking and reading books that take him to other places.How can you funnel your feelings into pursuits that are creative and life giving? Who you are with alcohol is not the most interesting part about you.There is deep wisdom in this reflection. Whether it is alcohol or another coping mechanism to escaps pain, remember that you are more than that behavior and that there are other ways to address the pain.    Thanks again to our sponsors, FullStack PEO, helping entrepreneurs get back to business by providing benefits and support.  And thanks to Motivosity, an employee engagement software system that brings fun and gratitude to your people.    OUTRO

- Matt Mills You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.   -  Liesel Mertes Hi, this is Liesel with the Handle with Care podcast.  Perhaps you are sitting at home listening…because so many of us are sitting at home in this time of COVID-19.  Or maybe you are an essential worker, going out into a world of exposure because you still have a job to do.    Coronavirus is top of mind for everyone, so we are doing a special miniseries here on Handle with Care.  Workplace empathy, truly seeing the whole person and not just the job, has never been more important to as many people as it is now.  We are going to be talking to all kinds of people affected by the shutdown, giving you valuable insights and guidance within their stories so you can help those around you.    Today, we are talking with Matt Mills of Mills Catering, headquartered in Indianapolis.  Matt is a hard worker, a straight shooter, and, as someone who has been fortunate enough to sample his cooking, he is a bang-up chef.  And COVID-19 has hit his business, hard.    Before we begin, I’d like to thank our sponsors, FullStack PEO, providing benefits and HR support to small businesses and entrepreneurs, and Motivosity, a software solution to brings fun and engagement to your employees.   Now, back to Matt and his story…   - Liesel Mertes Would you tell me just a little bit about Mills catering? How long you been around? Why you started doing this catering thing?   - Matt Mills Sure. While I was an English major. That's why I became a caterer. Absolutely. As what? The creative writing major. So, my father is in the food business, the wholesale Sysco for all my life. I worked at Cisco for a while. I started working there when I was 13 in the maintenance department. When I went to college, dabbled with restaurant stuff a little bit after that, but my first real job cooking, I ran the cafeteria, Sysco in Indianapolis Fed three shifts, didn't go my head from my butt and I loved it, loved the oh, let's see what we can do with this.   - Matt Mills It actually prepared me quite well for what I do now because they are basically, they'd give me things. I'd plan a menu on the fly. We'd figured out and realize I know what I was doing, went to culinary school in Rhode Island, came back, worked in some restaurants, was working for a local restaurant in town and did a catering job for them and spent about 20 hours on it and used some of my own stuff and realized that I didn't need a middleman for this.   - Matt Mills And it picked up one or two people that were interested in events. And I was like, you know what? Let's give this a shot. Quit my job, started buying equipment and slowly started a business and went from a couple different locations and worked out to cast the old cast across from.   - Matt Mills I guess it was we're be-bop pizza was a forty fifty fourth and college worked out of there for a while. Shepherd community who will give a kidney to at any time if they need one has very good to me. And Jay Height is probably one of the best people I know. He. They've been in there instrumental in me staying in business for a while. Had a baby about 15 years ago, so I ran a business 18 years. He's paying taxes legally.   - Matt Mills And when Silas was born, I remember having a conversation with my father. Lon is like, we going to get serious about this or what? So, I bought a building right after that. And then. Just started quietly building business in spite of myself. I'm not very good at. social-networking I don't really. We finally got our Facebook page up and running after 10 years. But Zo, in spite of myself, we've just been quietly under under promising and overdelivering and trying to do our best.   - Matt Mills And if we don't do our best, we fix it. So. That's good.   - Liesel Mertes And just for the human dynamic. Will you tell me a little bit about your wife and son?   - Matt Mills My wife is my better three quarters Anastasia. Catherine Anastasia Mills. She is much smarter than I am. She is very talented in law, gardening, music. Just about everything she does, my son is 15 sales smells. He goes to cathedral. He is such a good friend and a good teammate and a great kid.   And I couldn't be more blessed like that. And yes, a rousing endorsement on my part about your wife, especially.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. I had, um. I had a friend who well, Sam, we had dinner. He dropped our food for our family. And as I looked at it, they said, oh, that's actually from Matt Mills catering until my dad's. I mean, I know I've been the beneficiary of some of your cooking   effect of some of the food that you gave him. So, thank you from my family to yours. That's funny.   - Matt Mills Well, as far as my business goes, we. It pretty much has wiped me out for about the next two months. And once we get into wedding season, that's definitely going to get a lot more interesting as people try to life events tend to take a lot of time to plan and tend to be expensive for some of them. So, we got some figuring to do on that. As far as restaurants go in food service in general, pretty much if you got any place right now you you have the owner, all salaried people doing what they can to keep the doors open.   - Matt Mills And then I know many places like this where they'll pull temps and try to help offset expenses and help pay any staff, because pretty much servers went away about, what, a week ago. Yeah. And that's a that's a real thing. I don't know why I don't know the end plan on this, but if we can't if we can't adapt, I don't I don't know. I think that's what everyone is doing right now.   - Matt Mills Everyone's just kind of seeing what they can do. Changing what they do. Compromising any way they can. We were all families, basically, when you when you look at a restaurant or any kind of business and you want to make sure you take care of your family and it puts an especially owner is in a tough situation and there's really not right answers. But I don't know. Do what you can, I guess.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about that. When in the midst of normal times, what is that kind of family or collegial interaction like?   - Matt Mills Well, for us, it's kind of like a crew on a pirate ship. We're all there. We're all there because we want to be there. And I would love to say it was a military example, but it's not. We just, you know, we we kind of you work with someone, you form a relationship, you start, you care about them as a person.   - Matt Mills You care about their family; you care about each other's success and what you're doing. And you never want to. You never want to see anyone suffer, especially from things out of their control. As far as our, personally, with my business, I was telling them the first person and not get paid, it's gonna be me or will be me or is me. So as far as the restaurants go, it's just such a tenuous thing.   - Matt Mills And now I'm losing in the middle May. I've had June stuff either move in some of these things or reschedule and we'll figure that out. But its kind of is what it is. I like I said, I'm trying to figure out the best way to be a steward of the funds we have. Make sure everyone can get paid. Make sure we can kind of be in control of the situation as long as we can. We've even switched what we're doing now, we're doing catering.   - Matt Mills So, we run deliveries. We have free delivery. That's what a lot of restaurants have done. They've gone to to carry out pickup or they've changed what they've done all together. They've become commissaries.   - Matt Mills I've taken steps to help fortify things. But it's I'm not really concerned about the business. It's not going anywhere. I'll need to die, or the building needs to burn down for me to quit. But I keep my guys and I want to keep their I want to help them help feed their family. So, we're trying to stay busy. That's kind of where we are.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me about that. Because as I have been talking with and doing communication coaching for executive teams, you know, I realize there's a particular burden of someone at the top who realizes that the decisions that they make have trickle down to all the peoples families who are present in there.   - Liesel Mertes How has that felt to you as you're facing the realities of the market and the people who make up your pirate crew?   - Matt Mills Pirate crew? Thank you very much. Well. I like the fact that we're still working. It's kind of in our bones and it's what we do. So, it gives us normalcy in that. And if we can feed some people and help some people and feel like we're actually doing something towards it, I think that's a win. So that's kind of. We always run by the. The theory, it's not the philosophy, it's not what happens, it's what happens next.   - Matt Mills Like things happen. Now what? So, this was a now what moment where. Now what are we gonna do? Well, we're gonna do this meal kid thing if that doesn't work. I've talked to the guys. I'm like, if they shut it down, maybe we can be at someone's hungry somewhere. I'd rather be cooking even if I don't make a damn dime on it. Cause that's what we do and kind of go crazy if I don't do it for a while.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. You mentioned is keeping you up at night. Tell me a little bit more about the stuff that's keeping you up at night.   - Matt Mills I've had a lot of peace about it. My my fears are the unknown. I think that pretty much sits with everyone because there's so many things we don't know right now. I think that. Needs are gonna go. The needs that everyone has now will change as this progresses and as things get more and more restrained. I mean, I'm I'm fortunate or we're fortunate in that as being part of food service. I don't think that we are going to physically close down, but I don't know what happens with grocery stores.   - Matt Mills People go into the store. There's just a lot of unknown as far as. It's just interesting because like food banks, I think food banks are struggling to find product right now, even if they have funds because everyone's in the same boat. Everyone wants the shelf stable. They want the the past policies and they want the something you can pull out and feed your kids. So that that keeps me up the business stuff. It's all things. It doesn't matter just the personal cost on this for us as a as a city and everything else.   - Matt Mills That's what that's what worries me. It's all right.   - Liesel Mertes I mean, I've I've had a growing sense of just the long tail on this. And they're the relational cost then as people are just dealing with all of that, the stress of work, insecurity or people being laid off, you know, how that how that comes out and different behaviors and. Yeah. Like, you know, our alcohol sales are through the roof right now and not that that's inherently bad thing. But, you know, I'm going to be having an interview later this week with a guy who, you know, is fighting for his sobriety.   - Liesel Mertes And what does it mean to have all the AA meetings closed down? Right. Have everybody drinking. And, you know, it's just all these human dramas that are compounding as time goes on.   - Matt Mills Sure. But it's not. I will say this. I really value the time we've been able to spend at home because we were always in orbit of each other and we're always at the same place, you know. So, it's it's been very nice just to be. The circumstances are shit. And I would love the circumstances, but it's just kind of nice to. Be together. And this also brings out the resilience and people, because you see people that like, oh, now we're gonna do this and we're gonna look out for each other this way or we're gonna.   - Matt Mills I'm sure that you can find countless stories of people helping people and where we live. We have a bunch of bikes we're going to put on the porch because there's a swap. So now you don't have to go the storm by stuff. We all have stuff we can kind of trade. And we hopefully this will bring us a little closer as people that we're not supposed to talk to one another face to face.   - Liesel Mertes You know what? Then I like the turn of phrase is not what happens. It's what happens next. And tell me a little bit about some of your most fun at home times as you've been enjoying being with stations. I was.   - Matt Mills Well, we've we've been watching movies, which we don't usually do, but it's just fun to sit together and be together. We play anagrams or we try to pick out a board game and make it work. Dinner is more of a source of entertainment.   - Matt Mills I love trying to figure out what we're gonna eat and station would always I drive her nuts in that I would try to run out of food before I'd get more. I'm really good at survival cooking. I guess that can of beans last for me. But I like the challenge of that. Our drawers have never been more organized. Hopefully the sun will come out eventually and we have this side. But I don't know. It's just going to be stuck with people.   I'd rather be stuck with them.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you wouldn't want people to know about it. I don't know. People who are in the restaurant business or catering. You would want them to have an awareness of or do you have any word like that?   - Matt Mills In what way? I don't know. Like, I actually write things like, hey, still, you know, be buying gifts, certificates or.   - Liesel Mertes Absolutely. Is there a call to action like that?   - Matt Mills I do. I'm not as connected as I should be. I mean, be aware that it's not for people in the industry, but for people out of the industry. There's a lot of people off work and suddenly off work because of this. And yeah. Gift cards, I think are a great idea. If you're I mean, these people are still good at doing carry out and stuff as long as we can do that. Any tips you usually do, they'll pull and give the servers.   - Matt Mills I mean it's it's not critical yet, but it's gonna get interesting I think for sure. I don't I don't think this is going to end us. I think we're gonna be OK. Just going to suck for a while.   - Matt Mills Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. Well, thank you, Matt. I hope that the rest of your day, whether it's movies or Bananagrams, goes, well, I am surprised. I'm sitting in my closet with the door locked and I told my husband before I went and I was like, Luke, can you please keep the children from screaming at each other just as long as I'm in there? And it's been remarkable because this is the longest stretch to day that we haven't had either war cries or loud games of tag.   - Matt Mills So, I've got some fun, actually. And they they are kind of fun.   - Liesel Mertes There's there's an element there, all kinds of things that are chaotic about having four children. There's also things that like they still have like a kind of cohort like to play with and fight with. And so, everybody's at a pretty high emotional pitch, which can be glorious or devastating. But they do have other options all the time.   - Matt Mills So, there you go.   -  Liesel Mertes Thank you for making the time. I appreciate it. If you need smarter answers, I could probably think on things until you give them all. Those are good answers. And yeah, I think more than anything, you know, talking about owning your words in your heart.  Your your heart for your people, but also the power of, you know, ducking your head and doing the work and being willing to pivot. Is is a good word. I especially liked. Yes. It's not what happened, but it's what happens next. So, I think it's a good word for people. And thank you. All right. Have a good afternoon, Matt. All righty. See you. I like.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   As always, here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Matt Mills I hope this conversation opened you up to one of the stories behind the numbers.The men and women being affected are not just data points, they are people with families and passion, scrappy entrepreneurs and workers that are feeling this deeply Buy gift cards or order carry-out.People in the restaurant and food service are doing everything they can to keep their pirate ships afloat…I have linked the Mills Catering Facebook page to the show notes.  This is the best place to keep up with daily menu items and delivery options.  Try the coleslaw I loved Matt’s turn of phrase: it’s not about what happened, it’s about what happens next.  This is, in a time of great uncertainty, perhaps a good word for everyone.  What happens NEXT for you?    OUTRO   Mills Catering: https://www.facebook.com/Mills-Catering-122716954412270/?eid=ARAsePo1FH2OYPk9_Q_UhyxBJAYJQ8cgc1xiN3nH-Y7UWGKaTFmwWAPxQm4dLo5y6xAnUXokFIzXjIvS

- Paul Ashley Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.  If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.   INTRO Paul Ashley is a Vice President and Managing Director at First Person Advisors.  He has also lived most of his life with depression and, at the time of this podcast recording, has just published an article taking on the stigma associated with depression.   Liesel Mertes What is the American 24th twenty first century associations and stigma that go with depression and particularly for you as a white male? Yeah. How do you feel it?   - Paul Ashley Well, I think I've blown through some of that. I think I've realized the stigma that I believed existed. Maybe isn't true. But let's say let's say I didn't yet. So what is the low level stigma? I think that as a man, we're maybe called to be brave and strong.   - Paul Ashley Maybe it's different than feminine, right? Female.   - Paul Ashley As a successful business person, what do you have to complain about as a person and business? You can't show people you're weak because weakness will get preyed upon. I think those some mixture of all that is a stigma.   But Paul is more than just his depression.  He is married to Amy and the father of five children, including twins.  And he has three dogs.  And a fish.    - Paul Ashley Technically the fish's name is Mr. Unicorn Pants. Because it spent some time in Amy's classroom at school and sometimes at home. But at home I call Mr. Bubbles.   He is also a wine expert, which has a proper French name that I have been struggling to pronounce.    - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about. I'm not even going to pronounce this word correctly. I only see it written being at O somewhere.   Yay! Oh, say it again. Some of yeah. Some it s a French word. Just super friendly French words. Tell me more.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. So that's part of what's helped in my journey is having things that I enjoy in life. And one of them is I I enjoy wine, education and wine knowledge. And officially a few years ago I earned what's through the courts of master sommeliers is my level one designation.   - Paul Ashley Sharing wine and food like is there a better way to have community, you know, good people, good wine, good food and that wonderful banquet table, by the way. And in that order, people, food and wine like you put those three together. You're going to have a great time.     Paul takes trips down to Haiti with Filter of Hope, to address Water Insecurity.  In addition to his international travels, Paul is raising money for Cancer Research this month as a Man of the Year candidate, more on that later.    And as we begin this important conversation, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStack PEO is a full-service benefits firm that provides great services and packages for small companies and entrepreneurs.  This month, we are also welcoming Motivosity as a friend and sponsor of the podcast.  Motivosity is a peer recognition and employee feedback software that will have your employees more motivated than ever.  Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Contact Handle with Care for interactive, powerful sessions that equip your people to competently offer care when it matters most.    As I mentioned, Paul also become more vocal about his journey with depression.  As we began to talk, Paul memorably described depression like a dog.    - Paul Ashley It's. It sort of has. You've ever seen the World Health Organization video they put out on depression, though? With the metaphor that it's a black dog. Mm hmm.   - Liesel Mertes No, tell me more.   - Paul Ashley Well, so this idea is that this black dog follows you everywhere in life when you have depression.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes the black dog is this massive creature that stands over. You like foreboding. Other times, it's this little puppy that's in your lap that you can control. And it's he's always with you, right? Well, I sort of feel like it's helped make the black dog be like, yeah.   - Paul Ashley T-Mobile doesn't cure it. The black dog is never gonna go away. Not cuddly. But yeah. Just survivable. Yeah. Yeah.   Like president that present but not out of control. Right. Not a slobbery, you know, vicious dog.   - Liesel Mertes Well you said was it your teenage years that you.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. It started when I was 17 to 17. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that.   - Paul Ashley So growing up in a in a you know, in a house that was imperfect as most homes are, even the home I have with my wife and it's we we aren't perfect. You are still. Yeah, right.   - Liesel Mertes You do?   - Paul Ashley Yes. What a coincidence. Especially the greater number of children you have, the greater chances for imperfection.   You think? Yeah. Because you have more human fallibility mixing together.   [00:01:42.420] - Paul Ashley You know, I in really quite frankly, family history is is very present on both maternal and paternal side of the family with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, other stuff.   - Paul Ashley And I, you know, was dealing with teen angst as one deals with and I can I can see it as plain as day. We were I was I was driving somewhere in the evening in my hometown of Columbia, Missouri. And there was an intersection. That's actually not too far from University, Missouri, where this one road comes to a T. And on the other side of that, T is a limestone, you know, cut out from where they blasted to have to have the road built.   - Paul Ashley Right. And I remember turning onto the one road that tease out there and thinking, I'm just going to gun it and just like hit the wall and make it all go away.   - Paul Ashley And I realized, whoa, that is that's a suicidal thought, that self-harm like that's not that's not good. That's real bad. I was like, what is causing that?   - Paul Ashley And I reached. Luckily for me, thank God, my best friend growing up, best man at my wedding.   - Paul Ashley His father is one of the most world renowned child psychiatrist.   - Paul Ashley And he his actual specialty is working with children in war and where they've gone through massive events, things like Syria. And remember, in the 90s, Bosnia and Herzegovina and all that they dealt with, he did a ton of work with the U.N. and he's just unbelievably gifted. Well, you know, fearful as a 17 year old who just didn't like didn't know what all this is about. I called I called him and said, I need help. And he said, listen, I normally don't treat people that close to me, but I'll take care of you.   - Paul Ashley And he did and sort of started me back to stability pretty quickly. Once a cult classic story.   - Liesel Mertes So a childhood context of, you know, your parents having their own mental health issues. Did you feel like you had? Because it strikes me as particularly self-aware in some ways that you at 17 were able to recognize that thought is damaging, feel like you had agency to reach out to someone. Was that formed? Did you have an awareness with your parents like, oh, they are going through a mental health episode or because I'm struck for some children, like they just internalize that as I deserve what's going on or I'm the cause of that.   - Liesel Mertes Like what sort of a formation did your perception as a child have allowed you to reach out the way you did?   - Paul Ashley What a brilliant question, because I don't know that I ever have ever thought about that. You know, it's something I was able to do. And so at the same time, I think what what your question helps me think about and realize is that as imperfect as some of the upbringing was and as as much pain as can get caused in the household, my parents, my dad has passed away. My mom still living. Did a lot, you know.   - Paul Ashley They gave me enough there was enough love in that house. There's, you know, everybody's doing their best that they probably not only do they give me the genetic disposition to have the problem and some of the triggers that would exist to create it. I'm not blaming them, don't get me wrong. But they also gifted me with the bravery to self-identify and be self-aware at the same time. Isn't that interesting that you both would coexist?   - Liesel Mertes Did you see some of that bravery for them in your upcoming light at the time?   - Paul Ashley No. As I now, as an adult, as a as a parent of five kids, I I see it. I see the bravery in hindsight, but not the.   - Paul Ashley That's certainly not in the moment. Yeah. You know, there's more blame and payment pain and blame than there was. Looking back and saying, you know, bless them for. Yeah. But they were able to do well.   - Liesel Mertes I mean, that's such an age where you're just beginning to make sense of who you are. Is there an emerging in the washer and what you take from your parents, what you choose to leave behind? Do you remember that as you're beginning to work with this friend's father of just I imagine I could feel really tumultuous, like my parents have given this to me or they've wounded me in this way. Do feel free.   - Paul Ashley Yeah, I think there's a definite wounding, you know, the wounds, wounds as you have as a child. And, you know, even today it almost 43. I'll be 43. And in April this year, happy. Almost. Thank you for almost having a birthday.   - Paul Ashley Yes. I think there's still that childhood wound that doesn't fully go away. Not at all. Does it fully go away? Yeah. It's just it's hard. You know, even though I I'm blessed that I've been connected with Cindy Rep. Ragsdale. Yeah. You know, Cindy.   I do. And and her husband. Unbelievable artist Kyle, her husband.   - Liesel Mertes My husband and I have gone to marital counseling with Cindy. Well, let's just say I have sat in her office.   - Paul Ashley So this is the Cindy Ragsdale fan club right here.   - Paul Ashley So Cindy and I have been working together for probably a year and a half now, 18 months, pretty consistently. You know, every three weeks, give or take. And, you know, we're, we're, we're going back and dealing with some of those childhood wounds.   - Paul Ashley But the big realization I have from all that is that that the things you did as a child to cope, survive and thrive were were the right things and they were effective. It's as you get later in life and continue to work on yourself and become try to become the whole you that you're supposed to become. You begin to realize that those same skills that were really effective as a child becomes super and potentially super ineffective and damaging as an adult. Right.   - Paul Ashley Right. But there's grace in that. Yeah. Like, that's okay. And you you don't you don't trash the old behavior because it was what you needed at the time. And you just you sort of learned to evolve throughout that process. That's kind of where I'm at right now in terms of that counseling. And, you know, there's bad behaviors that again, sins of the fathers. Right. Like, right. If I don't if I don't do my thing to get healthier, I'm I'm just kicking the can down the genetic stream to my kids and their kids and their kid's kids.   - Liesel Mertes Well, it's it's a brave and painful journey and not be able to do that work. And like you said, to to work is not to evade, but to sidestep some of this weirdly inside eddies that are all about like, oh, man, I'm so messed up and I've been messed up since I was six. And I started doing, you know, this thing to survive and to be able say, you know what, I'm recognizing that that exactly what you said was what I needed to survive at that time.   - Liesel Mertes But that doesn't mean that I, as a choosing an aware person, have to keep being hijacked. Right. That pattern.   - Liesel Mertes Exactly. And breaking. It's not easy because it served you well, right? It's certainly not your neural pathways.   - Paul Ashley Ray, there's some neural pathways that are pretty solid. Yeah. Based on survival.   MUSICAL TRANSITION - Paul Ashley And so it was like I thought of this thing. It was crazy. Help me. That's all I had, which was all I needed at the time. And I think that was what I've taken from that is I've as time has gone on, I've been more willing to be more public about my journey. I think to realizations. Number one, being able to say this is this this journey with depression has existed in my life continuously since I was 17 and now at 43, realizing it's probably never going to be cured.   - Paul Ashley Air quotes inserted here, right. Like it's not going to go away. It's probably always going to be present. OK, so relax. Except that doesn't mean you're broken. Doesn't mean you're messed up. It just means that's true. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes If someone were to say, well, I'll feel sad sometimes. Yeah. How does depression feel or look different? Like what are the undertones? Does depression for you? Come on, quickly. Is it cyclical? How is that looking for someone who would say it hasn't been a part of my story?   - Paul Ashley Yeah, I mean, sadness exists in this world no matter what your clinical background is, you know? But there are sad things that happen all the time. Life events and and sad, you know, occurrences, I would say. For me, depression is more like the consistent who who I am. And I don't know that it's cyclical. It's it's always present. But it does have general peaks and valleys. And a lot of those peaks and valleys depend on sort of what I'm doing to either take care or not take care of myself.   - Liesel Mertes Right. So when you're not taking care of yourself, what does that look like and where do you find yourself going?   - Paul Ashley Problem biggest indicator for me of how I feel when those, you know, sort of the values are more present is our mornings where it feels like it is every fiber in my being to get out of bed, you know, to simply put the feet on the floor and get out of bed and face the day like, I don't even want to go to bed. I just want to close my eyes and never get out of that. Get out of bed.   - Paul Ashley And there's been some seasons where I have had I don't have suicidal thoughts. Is there nothing like ideation with a start of a plan like I had when I was 17? But I've have had thoughts at times when those valleys are true.   - Paul Ashley In addition to get out of bed where it is, where I've had some sort of like like man officious was if this life was just over, there would just be this all would be solved. Like the pain would be gone. I'd be fine.   - Liesel Mertes And how does the day progress from there? Where is that reckoning of like, oh, I only want to get out of bed.   - Paul Ashley And there's some days we're all cancel meeting or all. And this doesn't happen anytime recently, but I'll cancel a meeting or, you know, get up at the last possible second.   - Paul Ashley You know, like, can I get 30 more seconds but not facing the world and think the other thing that I see to do is withdraw from mostly with the family, for my wife and my five kids, you know, getting sucked into social media as a escapism. I think that you see a lot of that too little. That's adult a._d._d as well. But the addiction of social media made to be addictive. Right. Like, they literally have designs.   - Liesel Mertes They're not doing this by mistake. So I think those are probably some indicators that I see. Right.   - Paul Ashley What's interesting about, you know, my role professionally is I'm in an advisory role and I'm also in a business development role. And so this idea of being onstage and performing those two can sometimes not mix so well. Luckily, I've been able to, you know, particularly the last 10 years, been pretty successful despite this ever present friend that I call depression.   - Paul Ashley And then in the writing and in in conversation with you and other people, I I phrased it a little differently every time. But I essentially say when I tell people about my journey with depression and oftentimes the reaction I will get, which is not they don't mean harm and it doesn't hurt me, is really. Yeah, you you're depressed or you, you have depression or really this is a journey you've been on. But Paul, you're literally one of the most fun guys to be around in your.   - Paul Ashley So you're the life of the party and you're engaging. And my response to them is, yes, both are true and literally at the same time, which surges like day. Right.   - Paul Ashley And that's a that is that dichotomy is really weird. And it's sort of in some ways beautiful and painful.   I’ve been at events that Paul has hosted.  He is high-energy, with a warm smile and a quick retort:  a talented connector and facilitator.  But this sense of being on came with a cost.    - Paul Ashley I hold it together at work. When those those episodes are seasons are there. And then at home, I'm just darn near worthless.   - Paul Ashley You know, I I see the damage. I see the damage that is done at home. And Amy and I have a really solid marriage and a great relationship. And it's almost 19 years now. But there are you know, there are seasons and days I can't get back. And I think she's as an adult, she's more aware and gracious. I think it's really it's been really hard at times on the kids.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. So. So the kid, the kids of, you know, they're they're resilient. Right. So they'll bounce like the seasons that I've where I've done damage by not being present, you know, much like I'm I'm resilient from my childhood. They're gonna eventually be fine. But it it hurts.   - Liesel Mertes Is there a conversation? Because there is a complex web of modeling, genetics, stress points. That is not something that's easily clinically or relationally passed out. Yeah, but there is an element of, like you said, aspects that run through families that make children predisposed towards certain behaviors and your own journey. How do you find yourself talking and framing life experience around depression or anxiety to your children to equip them in ways that perhaps you were underequipped?   - Paul Ashley I think that's the next horizon for me and my journey. I think where I've been able to be a little more clearer for what I need a little more clear about sharing. Publicly out in the world where I don't have relations, like I think the next horizon is figuring out how to be public with my kids in a way that's productive for them and for me, but also realizing there are five different humans at four different ages. Right. Right.   - Paul Ashley And you know what? I know I've hurt them because I'm a human. And that's what we heard our kids, even though we don't want to. And so what can I do to equip them, to help them understand why that is, how these reasons and things have happened?   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm struck that as you're living those questions towards their answers. That's his own gift that you give not only to your children to equip them more, but hopefully, you know, it's not just this aspirational like American dream, but to equip our children, to not have to make the same sorts of mistakes in the same kind of way. And then should they have children to equip them to give even more and to be able to pass wisdom down?   - Paul Ashley Yeah. Yeah. And it's a I mean, they're dealing with things as adolescence that I never had to because they're they have a supercomputer in their pocket. Right. I didn't have that.   - Liesel Mertes Well, they have so many feedback mechanisms to when we talk about some of the things that can spark whether anxious episodes are depressing. You know, so often it is based off of perceived social cues. And you're so inundated with so many people's thoughts and likes and dislikes of you all the time. It's just a different psychological reckoning.   - Paul Ashley It's really is. And being a kid isn't easy. Right. Never has been. And I think it's not going to be easier.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and it's always good to remember, I think as a child, you actually as you encounter the escalation of life stresses, you don't actually know if you're going to survive them or not. Like it's only through surviving the chaos of that first time that you can have any sort of sense of building resiliency. And so the the pitch sometimes of of children's emotion to be like, well, they're not sure if they're going to die from this pain or not, you know, and it's it's survivors slowly like and living through it when you are in the midst of.   - Paul Ashley A depressive season. That's the word I use. Season, season. What are some of the things that have proven helpful for you not to, like, suddenly snap out of it, but that are helpful?   - Paul Ashley So I think talking about it is probably the most helpful because that that whole if it's if it's hidden away in its secret, that's where it festers. And, you know, as a person of faith, I think there's a spirituality that there's a kind of spiritual warfare going on there. But if you don't talk about it. You know this. The you know, the devil can steel industry. Right. You know, that's how I would describe it for somebody who's not a spiritual person.   - Paul Ashley I just think things in secret versus things that are brought out in truth are damaging. Yeah, I mean, the secret is damaging. Truth is his life-giving. So talking about it, whether that's a counselor or a confidant and a friend, whatever.   - Paul Ashley It just any conversation, most any conversation should be helpful with somebody you trust. Sleep healthy sleep, which I know is kind of ironic when I say I can't get out of bed. But having a healthy sleep pattern has been helpful.   - Paul Ashley Exercise is, you know, clinically been proven. That is one of the best ways to fight depression, even without medication. You know, the way your body doesn't have to be, you have to be a marathon runner. You know, do.   - Paul Ashley What does that crazy gym thing called   - Liesel Mertes CrossFit.   - Paul Ashley CrossFit, you know, to be a CrossFit expert. Right. You just have to get out and get your heart rate up a little for 20 or 30 minutes every day. And that's the science on that. Is that what it does from an endorphin perspective and sort of a natural defense mechanism to depression?   - Paul Ashley So a little bit of exercise or lot, if that's your thing. Diet certainly plays. You know, if I if I eat foods that are way too regain, you know, eat too late at night. And, you know, if I if I alcohol's at the presence of I, you know, entertaining and I have too much alcohol. That doesn't help. And then, you know, for me, medication and medication is not for everybody. And it's not exact science either.   - Paul Ashley It's a search for what works best.   - Paul Ashley And I think kind of any combination of those have really been helpful.   These are all personal things that Paul does to manage his depression.  However, as a benefits specialist, he also has a lot to add about how employers can help their people as they live with depression.    - Paul Ashley And you know, in the workplace there's all sorts of stuff like, you know, most employers have what's called an EAP   - Liesel Mertes  An Employee Assistance Program.   - Paul Ashley Those EAPs can be super helpful. Yeah. It's like if you're a leader and you have somebody in your team who you think is struggling, you as the leader call that the EAP and say, here's what's happening. And they they these are professionals. They can help you.   - Liesel Mertes So for people who don't know EAP are license agreements with clinical providers to be able to have as a resource for your people to call to get help to hook appointments?   - Paul Ashley All sorts of stuff. Right. Yeah. And they're highly underutilized. Yes, they are. So employers pay for this or it's it's included as a value add in certain products they buy.   Paul also notes how the Canadian system is structured in a way that invites employers to be a part of solutions.    - Paul Ashley They have an opportunity to to create perks that because they're not paying for while they're paying for it, but because they're not providing basic health care.   - Paul Ashley The government takes care of that. They then to attract and retain employees have to be thoughtful about what their different perks are. And one of the things the Canadians have done is and the workforce that the employers believe they have a role to play in helping people with mental health and that it's something that's talked about in the workplace. And it's a benefit that is well thought of. And there's different models that employers provide above and beyond what the health care system does.   - Paul Ashley And so as I go to industry conferences, the Certified Employee Benefits Specialists, which is a designation I have. We do our national symposium or the international symposium every year because our Canadian friends are there. And it's I always stop in and listen to what they're doing on the Canadian track, because what they're talking about in terms of mental health in the workplace is so far ahead of where we are. I mean, they're probably a good 20 years.   - Paul Ashley It's like awareness, specific support systems, counselors on site, incentives to seeking out care, whether it's the stigma is different.   - Paul Ashley I mean, there is probably still a stigma not being in it. It's hard to say, but it feels like the stigma is less if nonexistent.   - Paul Ashley It feels like they invest from an employer perspective in programs, telephonic support apps, you know, various different modules and modes to support people, investment of time and dollars and just a cultural difference as seen as a lot more of a buy in.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes When you're in a depressive season, what are things that people either purposefully or inadvertently say or do like is not helpful?   - Paul Ashley I think I used to be bugged by the the thing of, well, you can't be depressed. You're super happy. Right, like that. That can be hurtful. How?   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that. What level does that hit for you?   - Paul Ashley Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.   - Paul Ashley If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.   - Liesel Mertes What does it feel? Also, I can imagine I could feel like you're invalidating what I'm saying. Yeah. And that what I'm saying could be true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.   - Paul Ashley But. There's no way you're depressed. You're too much fun to be around. Really? You really want to see that?   - Paul Ashley You really come on over it. Yeah. Come on. Come on over all. You live in me for a while and you'll get me a real back.   But that's over. I'll show you. I'll show you. Depressed. So that can be hurtful.   - Paul Ashley And, you know, ninety nine point nine percent the time people are not trying to trying to be hurtful. I think the other one this just popped in my mind.   - Liesel Mertes Bless these people.   - Paul Ashley So the other one is in Communities of Faith Church and my you know, Christian Church.   - Paul Ashley I've had people say, well, you know, you just pray harder and have a little more faith. God will take away your depression.   - Paul Ashley Do you not think that I haven't already brought this to God and said, if you know, if you 're willing take this away, make this not be part of who I am. Do you not think I haven't tried that? Yeah. Do you not think that hasn't been part of my faith journey? Right. That hurts a lot.   - Paul Ashley Like that is unbelievably right. Because that's not you know, that that's just it's just not it's just not true. I mean, that's just not how God works.   - Liesel Mertes  I think you touched on this, but I don't know if you say it differently. If you could give a greater awareness to people who have not experienced depression. What would you want them to know? What would you feel is really important?   - Paul Ashley That people who are suffering from depression all don't look the same. And. It can be as debilitating as any other chronic illness that you've ever heard of, like diabetes or cancer or things of that nature and that, but it is because it has been stigmatized and it's harder to see.   - Paul Ashley That you sometimes don't even know who's walking around with it. Yeah. And that's just another proof point that we need to just be a little nicer to each other, right? Because you don't know what somebody's carrying around with them.   - Paul Ashley I thought about that thought about any disease, just that, you know, everything you everything you need to know, like you learned in kindergarten. Yeah. Right. It's just be nice.   - Paul Ashley Try to be what good does it quantify a little bit and then come back and then come back and try again.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck with in your story, as I said, you had a noteworthy ability early on to be seeking community. As a 17 year old, to be not just internalizing it and keeping it private. If someone is listening and they say I know someone who man, they're definitely depressed, but they're, they're not doing some of those things like they're not they're not exercising, making healthy choices. They're not utilizing a counselor. They're depressed. And it's very much something that's tightly held for them.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, for support people. They can often feel at their wits end of wanting to make a difference, but being unable to. What would you say for those people that are listening and they say, I don't know how to help someone like that?   - Paul Ashley Well, they're not an actual clinician. Don't try to be one because you can do more damage than good.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes pursuing them and asking them to do things, you know, that they historically have found to be fond or enjoyable and asking them to do them with you, even if they reject you multiple times, continue to ask, because sometimes all you really need to do when you're in those depressive seasons is simply get out and start living. Go for what if if going for a walk was your thing. And bottom for a walk if you are going to see a movie is their thing environment.   - Paul Ashley But you may have to ask again and again and again and again. Right. And that's something that anybody can do, is join them in something, you know, they enjoy and get them. Just get them moving. Get them living. Be willing to be persistent. Yes. Yes. Yeah.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes if somebody is really suffering, sometimes it's just simply out your relationship simply go into their house and just being present. Mm hmm. Yeah.   - Paul Ashley Just physically present and not. I've never been in that stage where I've that's I've never gotten that bad. But I can see why that would be a spot where if somebody that truly cared about you just showed up and just sat there and didn't necessarily want you to talk, you just weren't alone and you knew somebody cared. Right.   - Paul Ashley That can go a long way. And that can be its own practice of self-discipline and restraint for the person who arrives for the caregiver.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do not say all the things that are perhaps at the tip of their tongue. Be that advice or you just need to hear this or.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. I don't know that they need to just show up and be silent the whole time. But if the person doesn't wanna engage and talk, I mean you ask a few open to the questions. Right. How are you today. Would you want to do it? Still try to engage them. But if if all you get is silence just being followed, you'd be amazed at how much presence can you help   We are going to move, in a moment, to the three key take-aways from this episode.  But I want to remind you that Paul is currently engaged in a great advocacy campaign to raise money and awareness from now until May 9 of 2020 for the leukemia, lymphoma society man and woman of the year.    - Paul Ashley I t's about raising money for L.A. less. And L.A. Less is an amazing organization that does work in research, huge research, patient advocacy and resource connection for families.   Paul is inspired by the cause and by Finn Stallings, who was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of five and, three and a half years later, Finn just rang the bell to signal that his treatments were over.  I’ve donated to support Paul and Finn and this meaningful research and I am including a link in the show notes so you can too.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Paul   If someone confides in you about their depression, listen and resist the urge to say something that minimizes their disclosure.  Paul was especially triggered by statements like “But you are always so happy!”  Which leads to my second point Depression can take all different forms.A person that is often “on” in their job function can be absolutely exhausted at home.  Widening our perception of what depression looks like (and how debilitating it can be) will go a long way to breaking down the stigmas that promote a culture of silence.  If you know someone that is struggling with depression, regularly checking in with them can be really important.Remember, as you make contact with them, they might not respond initially, you might need to continue checking in.  As Paul said, coming alongside them and doing something that they have enjoyed in the past or just showing up to be with them, even if that means not talking for awhile, can powerfully show support.    As we close, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStack PEO is the premier benefits provider for small businesses and entrepreneurs.  They give you great options, their staff is top-notch.  Let FullStack handle your benefits so you can get back to work.  We are also welcoming Motivosity as a sponsor.  Motivosity is a software solution that creates motivated employees and helps to spread fun and gratitude.  Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Through interactive workshops and keynotes, we help you offer support when it matters most.   OUTRO   https://pages.lls.org/mwoy/in/indy20/pashley - Man of the Year Campaign https://firstpersonadvisors.com/paul-ashley/ - FirstPerson/Paul Ashley bio page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc – WHO Black Dog video https://www.bizvoicemagazine.com/interactive/2020/03/index.html#p=16 – Reducing the Stigma, BizVoice Magazine Article    

– Adam Bryan And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?   - Allie Bryan I mean, shame, the biggest.   INTRO   Today’s conversation is a complex one.  We are going to dive into the story of Adam and Allie and the little girl they adopted from Uganda.  Adam and Allie loved their daughter and brought her over to be a part of their family.  She lived with them for three years and is not no longer in their home.  On this episode of the Handle with Care podcast, we are giving voice to a dimension of adoption that is difficult to talk about, often layered with a lot of emotion.  Even the term for what we are discussing can feel charged.   – Liesel Mertes   Is the term. So some things that I encounter failed adoption dissolved. You know, this has been an adoption dissolution.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. This has been disrupted or dissolved adoption. Okay. Those were the terms that like our lawyer used. Right. Okay.   - Liesel Mertes So that was only because I was like, man, even the term failed adoption, you know, all kinds of like connotation. Right.   - Liesel Mertes To how you feel and what terms you guys like to use. I say dissolves. Okay. Yeah. Dissolved adoption. Feel like it's the calmest word.   - Adam Bryan I don't really identify. I like I don't really even news. Yeah. We had an adoption and we adopted girl. We've transitioned her. I don't really even know because I'm afraid of them. I just don't know.   - Liesel Mertes Doesn't feel as maybe emotionally freighted in the same way.   This discussion could feel charged for you, the listener.  I had my own emotional journey in preparing for the interview.  It touches on pain and disappointment and vulnerability.  When Adam first approached me last year, it was after listening to prior episodes that talked about adoption.  He wondered if I had ever talked with a family whose adoption had dissolved.  As we talked, I heard the landscape of pain and isolation that is a part of dissolved adoptions.    Whether or not you agree with Adam and Allie’s choice, I believe it is important to hear their journey, the heartache and judgement and love that is embedded in their story.  It is important to hear because we all bear complex stories…and it is important to hear because their story will help you empathize more with anyone who is on the adoption journey.   You will also hear how faith in God is deeply embedded in their journey.  Faith is an essential grounding point for many people as they experience disruptive life events.    If you aren’t from a similar background of faith, this perspective might seem foreign or jarring.  If that is the case, I invite you to just listen with an open curiosity, embracing the insights that are for you and letting the aspects that don’t apply to simply sit by the wayside.    As we begin, I want to remind listeners of our sponsors.  Are you a small business owner?  An entrepreneur?  Growing your business van be hard, but benefits don’t have to be.  Let FullStack PEO take care of your people and your benefits plan so you can get back to business.    We are also sponsored by Handle with Care consulting, through workshops, conferences, and keynotes, we empower your people to respond with empathy and compassion when it matters most.    Let me begin by telling you a little bit about Adam and Allie.  I went to high school with Adam.  He was two years ahead of me and, in my mind, endlessly cool because he drove a Jeep.    Allie grew up moving all around the US; her dad was in the Navy.  She and Adam still love traveling together.  Allie also sells things on Facebook Marketplace.    – Adam Bryan She'll post stuff. And I'm like, wait, I'm using that. Well, no one else. You I use it. One doesn't wait.   - Adam Bryan Well, I like your toothbrush, right? Right. I think you're getting really kind, honey. You're getting really good at selling everyone else's stuff but your own.   I'm really nervous.   She's really good. So you're on to it through.   - Liesel Mertes Did you have three children?   - Allie Bryan Yes. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What are their ages and what kinds of things do you most enjoy doing around town as a family?   - Adam Bryan So the ages the youngest is four. Our middle is eight and our oldest is 10. OK.   - Allie Bryan All of their birthdays in April?   No, no, it wasn't planned. It's just remarkable. Consistent, so. Right.   - Allie Bryan So they're all gonna be switching here soon. I think we've gotten like I don't really know if we have anything.   - Adam Bryan I enjoy family bike rides. The 4 year old has a little trailer bike. And so we. But not in the winter because it's Indiana. We do enjoy that as a family.   Adam grew up with just one sister and was always interested in adopting, Allie wasn’t so sure.  But that changed when their boys were three and one.    - Allie Bryan I never wanted to adopt. My sister always wanted to. And I mean, we'd talk about it all the time growing up. And it never like, oh, I was about like. Good for you.   - Allie Bryan And I was rocking. Our youngest at the time, and it just hit me of this. I think we're supposed to adopt and like now, which was so it was not me. I had never wanted to never considered any of it and came downstairs and told Adam and he was like, okay, that be great. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan Maybe in like a couple years, you know, and like, no now   - Adam Bryan or in like 10 years. Right.   - Allie Bryan And so it started on a process of really trying to figure out from what country do we do it stateside, do it, you know, all the things. And it took a couple months for us to get on the same page.   But, through a process of discernment and listening, they did get on the same page.  The next question was logistical considerations, domestic or international?      - Adam Bryan So we were really open to whatever the Lord had at the time, but   - Allie Bryan We had our we had savings and we we're like, well, let's get our home study done. And then as the Lord opens the door, we'll just keep moving forward.   - Allie Bryan It was one of those.   - Adam Bryan It was all of our savings rate. And so was not Dave Ramsey. It was not.   - Allie Bryan And so every next step, we. It was that we'll do your money to move forward. And there always was. And the Lord provided all the money for it. Like we didn't because we didn't want to go into debt for it. Minute like he just provided.   There are also a lot of logistics to setting up a home study.   - Adam Bryan I mean, basically, once they come through your life, I mean, you're getting fingerprinted and blood work and I don't know. Yeah. Just everything. I mean, they comb through everything your life. They come to your house, they meet with your kids, they interview people. You have to send in paperwork from other families that verify that you're good parents. They're so pretty involved. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Really, it's a very in-depth and involved process. I mean, the homestay, the paperwork that we took over, I mean, it was a stack of paper, you know, an inch or two thick of our whole life.   Adam and Allie ended up deciding to adopt from Uganda.  Allie’s sister was living in country with her country, she could help on the ground and make organic connections.    - Adam Bryan And so there's a huge need over there.     Right.   - Allie Bryan And so we ended up getting our home study done. And it was, okay, let's get over there and see what connections we can get. Like, let's see,   - Allie Bryan Because you have to find a baby home and, you know, like there's an a lawyer. Like there's all these things that because we were doing it independently. So not with the adoption agency,   - Adam Bryan We tried going through adoption agencies. But it's it's interesting because certain agencies are only work with certain countries and there's certain restrictions. And so it's not it's not really easy. And there's a lot of hoops to jump through. Just even with an agency. And so this was an opportunity   - Adam Bryan And we were planning to go to visit them. We had the home study and you have to claim a country or whatever in the home study. And so we said, well, let's just put Uganda since we're going. We'll see what happens. In even talking with the agency we talked with to do the home study. He said you can change it later if you want to. So we just kind of started with that.   They get to Uganda and travel out to visit Allie’s sister.  Home study in hand, they meet with the director of the baby home.    - Adam Bryan And then the next day she called us.   - Allie Bryan She texted and said, I think I have a match for you. Which is a super weird text again. Okay. And so we made a scheduled time to go over to the baby home the next day and we met her. And so we have some precious video of getting to meet her.   - Adam Bryan And it was also really weird.   - Allie Bryan Yeah, it's you don't really prepare for that.   - Allie Bryan And then having to go back to my sister's house and we had to sit in on the conversation of how do you even make this decision?   - Adam Bryan It's like picking out a puppy at the pound. Except it's a human right. Right. How do you know? Guide for this.   - Adam Bryan There is no guidebook for this. How do you say yes or how do you say no? Well, here's this child. She fits. You know, she was of age and we wanted a little girl and this or that. Like, how do you say no? How do you say how do you how do you do this?   - Adam Bryan How do you make this decision?   After prayer and consideration, Adam and Allie decide to move forward.  There was still a lot of paperwork, attorneys on the ground in Uganda.  But everything was moving forward quickly,   - Liesel Mertes So you you go. You return is the next step that you go again and bring your daughter home?   - Allie Bryan Yeah. So we went over and met her in September. And so when we came home, it was that goal. OK, we have to get there's still a good amount. So at that point, we had investigations going on over there making sure everything was legitimate.   - Adam Bryan And you had to we had to pay for ads to find if any other, Is this any other family? What her have a claim. And so we had to go through that. We had to. So the attorney and newspaper are in all of this stuff. So there's all this stuff. We're funding that's happening. And then we get a call that a court date is in February and March.   - Liesel Mertes How were you learning or preparing?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, right on your own.   - Allie Bryan So there was a really at the time, a really big independent adoption group for Uganda, which was super helpful because we were having to do all of it. So is a lot of updates of like paperwork in this and certain judges how long they take it. You know, you you just kind of start to network a lot through there. And that was really helpful. But I would say that's that was the main support.   There were also some resources stateside for families that were doing independent adoptions.    - Allie Bryan So some of the classes or most the classes were online. And I remember one of them, it was it was preparing us to be white parents with a little African baby in it being a conspicuous ratably, which is, yes, that is a good thing to recognize and to.   - Allie Bryan But it, “A” for effort. What I would say. It just doesn't prepare you right. For real life of having an adopted daughter from another country.   - Adam Bryan And that's kind of like premarital counseling, right? You don't know what you write. You go through premarital counseling, but you have no idea. No. Right. It's kind of the same thing. Like they're telling you. But you have no frame of reference for this. You have no grasp of this. And so really, there wasn't we didn't find it very helpful.   - Liesel Mertes And especially, you know, when you say that I considered it like you are receiving a person right now is just a child. Right. Right. Yes. A entity of this age. Right. This is a this is a personality. This is a set of experiences. Good, bad, traumatic.   Right. You. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Well, yeah. And there may be other agencies that do a better job with international culture and things. But we didn't we didn't receive that. We didn't get that. So. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And I imagine even trauma. I'm right now. Right. My trauma is, you know, a different dimension.   Allie and Adam returned in February.    - Allie Bryan And so we showed up in February and went to the baby home and they handed her to us. And it was literally like, all right. Like, do we need to sign anything? We're sorry.   - Adam Bryan They just handed to us and we just walked out. Had a nine month onesie on. She was almost two. And she had like this dish towel as a diaper like tight around her. And that was it. Like, we just walked out with her. Are you sure you sign it? No, you're good. Go ahead.   Allie needed to stay behind in country for some additional weeks before their daughter could come to the US.    - Liesel Mertes So, Allie, you guys are in a foreign country in in Kampala. I've, I've been there, I can picture the streets and things like that. And you actually are practiced at parenting a child, right? This age and stage. But what are you finding that you're like, oh, this is so familiar. And what are you finding? Oh, wow, this is different.   - Allie Bryan Yeah, I anticipated more of different cause there was just a lot, you know, I. I walked in to the situation. So naive. And I was telling I think Adam a while ago, like I I literally thought within a week she was going to start saying, Mama, like in my head, like, I really.   - Allie Bryan And then within because she's two, surely.   - Adam Bryan And everyone had said we had like physical therapists look at her and like developmental therapists like over there.   - Adam Bryan And it was we had there's, there's like Australian and British in Scandinavia right over there. And so they would look and say, well, I'm a I'm a therapist of this, this and this. Oh, she'll be great. Just give her some love. In a few months, she'll be talking and walking in all this. It'll be great. She's fine.   - Allie Bryan So that's our expectation. And then the more he was with us for the first ten days, because he had to be at court and then he flew back to be with the boys and work. And so I was with so I was staying in Jinja mainly, which is where my sister lived. And but it was still extremely lonely with out him.   - Allie Bryan And I have this daughter that I don't know. And there's no connection. There's no bond. And yet there's that high stress of you have to bond and no one else, you know. So for two months being over there, it no one else was really supposed to hold her, feed her, any of that kind of stuff. And so it was just a high stress not knowing her. I don't know what makes her tick. I don't know what she's thinking to she even understand everything I'm saying.   - Liesel Mertes It's just very, you know, totalizing.     Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. No.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. And she was she was also developmentally. She could sit. But if she fell over, she couldn't get herself back up. She couldn't even go on all fours. You know, and she's almost two. And so it was just the rearranging of expectations. And you know, realizing, oh my gosh, this is this is gonna be a lot different than what all the training on the computer, you know, tried to teach us.   Right.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, I imagine then there is the next unfolding chapter of bringing her on to integrate with your other two children. Yes. What? What did that look like?   - Allie Bryan That looked like me taping masking tape around her chair with enough buffer. Was she eight so the kids wouldn't get her mother? That was literally that that became our world of.   - Adam Bryan They just wanted to love her and smother her. And that's great. But it's overwhelming. Yeah. And so, you know,   - Liesel Mertes in the midst of an entire context. Right.   - Adam Bryan So she was just and and we had been trained on that. Like there's gonna be, you know, different smells and sights and sounds like we get it. Yeah. So look, boys, you have to stay as far away from her.   - Allie Bryan I have a picture of them standing outside of the tape and her sitting at her chair eating so that she wouldn't be triggered if anyone got close to her food because it was stolen often at the baby home. She because that was that was a big trigger for her thinking her food was gonna be.   - Adam Bryan Which is pretty typical. Right. And that was expected.   - Allie Bryan So it was just a lot of a lot of her screaming and being triggered and the kids not understanding why and trying to explain that to them. And it was it was just very high emotion all the time.   - Allie Bryan So you. Yeah. And feeling completely ill-equipped. Right. And it was. And she was non-verbal, too. You know, like it was there were just so many things that felt stacked against us.   Their daughter’s physical and developmental needs also required a lot of attention.  She was eligible for Frist Steps, an Indiana program that provides assistance to children with delays.  Each week, she had speech therapy, developmental therapy, and physical therapy.    Her progress was sporadic, all of the board.  The therapists were confused as months became yeasrs.  Why wasn’t she progressing?  MRIs didn’t yield anything definitive.    - Adam Bryan Yeah, it was really, really difficult because at this stage she's consuming all of our financial resources are physical or emotional or mental. Everything. We are pouring everything into her and everyone else. The children are getting, you know, 5 percent and we're barely even giving each other anything because we're so exhausted and worn out. She's getting everything.   And there's no I remember with with one of the a group with the therapist. One of the last meetings was, you know, we went through everything again.   - Adam Bryan They said, do you have any questions or concerns? And I said, yeah. There's just no trajectory upward. And they're like, yeah, we we were concerned about that, too. I said, what's the plan? I don't know. I guess we'll just keep doing what we're doing. Yeah, well, that doesn't sound like a really good plan. Clearly, something's not working. This has been two years now. And yeah.   In the midst of these diagnosis, there was a whole swirling emotional world of anxiety and shame.    - Allie Bryan I was becoming very depressed. I was starting to have a lot of anxiety. And then what you call secondary trauma from living in an in a place with someone that has trauma. And, you know, I was to the point, of course, she was also still in diapers. We couldn't seem to get her potty train. And whenever I would change her diapers, I would start having a panic attack.   - Allie Bryan And that was one of the it was it happened a lot. But there was one point we'd had her for three years. And I'm having a panic attack while changing her diaper. She's watching me. And my oldest son comes behind me and it's comforting, comforting me saying like, it's okay, mommy, it'll be okay. And that's for me in my heart when it clicked. This is not healthy for anyone. It's not healthy for her to watch her mom have a panic attack while taking care of her. It's not okay that my son is trying to comfort me in this sense, and it's happening all the time.   - Allie Bryan I was a hot mess and was I would. I often said, like, I'm drowning. And I'd gotten to the point. I never had suicidal thoughts, but I'd gotten to the point of I. I'm just gonna run away. Like Adam is a great dad. He'll be fine with them.   - Allie Bryan My mother, who was amazing, like in my head, I like I can't do this anymore. I I'm I'm drowning. And then my kids are watching their mom all the time, having panic attacks and crying and not wanting to get out of bed.   - Adam Bryan And the panic in the stress was, when will this end? You know, when there's no end in sight, right. If there's an end in sight, you can persevere. Persevere on until you. Okay. Like there's an end. It's gonna be hard, but we can't get to the end. But when there's no end in sight and all therapists and physicians are saying we have no clue, it becomes. And you're already drowning in drowning.   - Adam Bryan Literal drowning is silent. You don't see anyone drowning unless you have a really trained eye from a lifeguard to know what a drowning looks and sounds like because it's silent. And so we're drowning individually and as a family and there's no end in sight.   - Liesel Mertes And did people did people. No. Did you have voice? Because I think that could be a difficult thing. Yeah. OK, about one. Yeah. How did it feel talking about that? And two, were people able to be helpful to you in that? Or did it feel isolating?   Allie Bryan And so it was hard to share how difficult it was. But with our close friends, we did. But it still was like, yeah.   - Adam Bryan I do want to say it fell on deaf ears, but there was no context for them either. So when we say which I don't think we did imagine, you think drowning is silent. We don't even know what to ask for. We don't even know what to say. We don't have the capacity to say, I need you to do this for me. We're just struggling and don't even know how to ask. But when we would, we, you know, talk to our close friends.   - Adam Bryan They were. To give them a little bit of grace, they were as helpful as they could be, but they had no context for it. And so they weren't helpful.   - Allie Bryan It was very isolating.   - Adam Bryan  Very isolating. Yeah. And I don't say that to throw them under the bus. They had no context. Or even though the vocabulary when we say shows we're talk reactive attachment disorder, she's struggling through RADS and it's really difficult.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about what you know, they say,   - Adam Bryan OK, so reactive attachment disorder or RAD is when the child in almost every adoptive child will have this and even some biological do when they refuse to attach or a bond to the parents. And so they are pushing you away emotionally, physically will push you away and do things to prove that you don't love them.   - Liesel Mertes So you are feeling like you are drowning? Yes. You have three biological children now in the home. What did you what emerged as the available options for you and how did you begin to try to make away Yahoo!   - Allie Bryan So it was shortly after I had my last panic attack while changing her diaper. And Adam and I were sitting in our boys room. And I was crying. I was like, I just I can't do this anymore. Like, I know I've said that. But there's some there's a shift of like something else, a change. You know, we had I had randomly talked to some people about this whole dissolving of adoption.   - Adam Bryan You found mothers in the trenches or whatever isn't discovered. There's a whole community right about this. And in this, the first time we've talked publicly about this, because this gets a really people get shamed. This is this is a really black mark on many families. And they get kicked out of churches, they get kicked out of neighborhoods, they get kicked out of families where the grandparents or the parents will say, you know, how can you do that to a child? How can you consider that and will kick people out of families in shame?   - Allie Bryan I mean, shame, the biggest.   - Adam Bryan Very much. And so we found this whole community. Oh, yeah. Other people are struggling through this as well. Okay.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. Because before then, I had always had the assumption that the if you were to choose to dissolve your adoption, you know, CPS comes in and they could take your biological kids and it be this huge thing.   - Adam Bryan And that's true.   - Allie Bryan Right. It can. But I randomly found this. And so for me, I'm like, that's not. Nope, not even an option. And so on this day, randomly found a Facebook group of other families in the same situation as ours.   - Allie Bryan And so I just posted our story and said, like, what do you do? And within three weeks of me posting that this family emerged and we face time them. And then that it just kind of snowballed from there as well.   - Adam Bryan And the family had adopted other children with similar needs. And it was a we get it. We understand it. We want her.   - Allie Bryan Right. There was. There was. And also some other really cool things that like they have connections to Uganda has over us. That was huge for our daughter. Of understanding Uganda and loving it and realizing that she is Ugandan. Like, that's a huge thing 'cause we love that culture and want her to know it. And they also do.   - Allie Bryan Which was in the Lord kept bringing in these confirmations. And so we decided to, just like a birth mom would give her biological daughter up for adoption. That same legal process is then what we ended up doing. And so this other family had to do their legal process and we had to do ours. And it took a couple months.   - Allie Bryan And in this time, we didn't share it with hardly anyone, because if you if it gets out and someone just doesn't like you or has, you know, makes assumptions, it can be really.   - Adam Bryan All it takes is a teacher saying, hey, I heard from one of the children that they're selling their daughter.   - Adam Bryan Right. And then all the teacher has to do is call CPS and say, I'm a teacher. Here's what. And it goes down or really dangerous and bad.   - Allie Bryan You need one lie and then you get investigated and kids taken out of your home. And if that doesn't happen for everyone.   - Adam Bryan But that was scary.   - Allie Bryan  It was really scary. So we're in a situation where we're not. Our kids don't even know. Only close friends and family know we're still drowning. And at this time that our friends, it's that mentality of like, oh. But now you've a light at the end of the tunnel. And so.   - Liesel Mertes And you're feeling this risk, perhaps? Yes. Yeah. Of What could happen with the involvement of the outside agencies? Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that there's also a risk that you're perceiving of, well, you're still considering moving this child out of your home, really wanting to be concerned that she is well cared for. Absolutely.   - Liesel Mertes And that's sometimes, you know, that's the you know, the reasons that those outside Agent Wright exist. Right. How are you mitigating that risk? What steps along the way are helping you? Yeah. Feel good about this.   - Allie Bryan So one of the really cool things was I randomly connected with another mom that had also dissolved an older kids adoption to the same family. And so I was able to get on the phone with her. And we had lots of and it was two years prior. So she was two years ahead of me with the same family, same situation, and was able to ask her questions. And she's been and she's been able to visit them and keeps contact with them.   - Allie Bryan And so I really got to hear another mom's perspective dealing with the same family as us.   - Adam Bryan So we were able to enter, in a sense, interview this family through another family. Right. And get some of the nitty gritty details, right? Yeah, I wouldn't actually find on paper. Right.   - Liesel Mertes And it sounds like. Tell me if I am understands that you also were having legal assistance and.   - Adam Bryan Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And that this was this was a transfer.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. Clearly a legal right. Yeah. Yeah. So there comes a day that was expensive.   Yes. Yeah.   - Adam Bryan Legal. So there a lot of expensive attorneys and making sure that it is legal and incorrect in that there's no ambiguity as to what's happening with that.   - Liesel Mertes There comes a day where you are telling me this news, your daughter to your boys and you're making the trip young. Tell me a little bit more of that.   - Allie Bryan Our oldest son bawled his eyes out and our other one just sat there silent.   - Adam Bryan They were six and eight. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan And so. So they. Yeah. They don't want to say supportive but. Okay. They also saw like they saw everything that was going on.   - Adam Bryan But we end up telling the kids and even you woke up and I mean, were you saying, how do we do this? I'm like one step at a time. And literally the steps were put the bags in the car. OK. Now, what do we do now? We got to get in the car.   - Allie Bryan And she loved it because she loves just being the center of attention. And so she was an only child at that time in the car ride. And so we had a long car car ride with her, which was enjoyable. And we drove and met the parents that night and had dinner with them. And she just clung to them, which was bittersweet. And then that night we had one last year.   - Adam Bryan She stayed with us.   - Allie Bryan We had one last night with her. And then waking up the next morning was really, just really, really difficult.   - Allie Bryan And so then we brought her to their house and walked around their house. And we got to go show her her bed. And that's where he and I   - Adam Bryan They had they had a whole bed set up for her.   - Adam Bryan And, you know, we set her up and talked with her. And that was when we told her, you know, now Nyla's going to stay here. And we were able to express and there was something at that time that happened that we can't articulate it,   - Allie Bryan But you know your kids looks, you know, the you know.   - Adam Bryan And she got it. She got what was happening. She understood it. There was there seemed to be. And you correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember it somewhat like there was a sadness, but also like a content.   - Adam Bryan Like a. Yeah, OK. I get it. Yeah. And then we had to get out quickly before like emotionally we just had to rip it off like a Band-Aid. Okay.   - Allie Bryan She was. You said it was going in. Yeah. With one of the parents. I can't remember. Like she was totally she was good for like we were we were the ones struggling. Yeah. She just waved to us and we took two days to come back home and stay overnight at a hotel.   - Adam Bryan We didn't need to, but yeah, we did. So that we could just have. We don't want to jump back into life. Yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What is what words are there. Yeah. Right.   - Allie Bryan What that is. It was. And so on. That are   - Allie Bryan The day we transferred her over. We had written a long email because that we're like okay this is what we needed. Send it out to everyone that's in community with us so that they know. And so sitting hitting that send button was extremely difficult and vulnerable because you don't know how you're going to be received.   - Allie Bryan And so we sent that out and it was just a lot of then interacting with people and having to almost love on other people that. They're just getting this information for the first time. And surprised. And, you know, so   - Liesel Mertes tell a little bit more about that. Because I, I think that's an interesting dynamic. So you're in the position. Yes, Emily. What are you expecting yourself to be or what are other people expecting to be in your communication there in the immediate stages?   - Allie Bryan Yeah, a lot of people are having a lot of questions. There is a number of people that were super sweet. But like I need to process this, I'm really to which we completely don't expect. But then, yeah, we're also sitting on the other side. I'll speak for myself like just wanted to go into a hole, you know, and just avoid all of that. Thankfully, most everyone was kind and loving. We've really only lost one really good friend from it that chose to separate themselves from us.   And so the majority that explicitly because.   - Liesel Mertes Yes, they said what? What did they communicate to you for that parting?   - Adam Bryan Well, it was for one of the struggles in this situation for us is that we were communicated to on a number levels as A-plus being. We'll see. And if you're not getting C, then you're not doing A or B, you need to either more A or more B, and then you'll get C. Well, we're not getting C, so it must be our fault   - Adam Bryan in this particular family. How did it had adopted? And it was phenomenal. It's like the storybook of adoption. So. Well. A-plus B or C. And when they found out they were also going through another adoption and it was really painful for them and it was a painful time. Just the time the timing was just bad. And so there was kind of a I can't handle and process that because of what I'm trying to go through. And so there was a a unhinging with her actually not agreeing with the choice. Therefore, there was an intentional distancing, which was incredibly painful.   - Adam Bryan Hurts. It still hurts.   - Adam Bryan And so that relationship is, you know, hopefully it will mean that over time. But, you know, there's still there's still distance than there could have been more loss.   - Allie Bryan There's no running fully. There is for an after a couple of months. I was probably six months after she had left. We ended up deciding to post on Facebook like, let's make this because I was getting tired of running into random people and then them ask and then I'm stuck face to face having to travel. Right. And so I finally got to the point of I just want everyone to know. So we posted the same e-mail we had sent out to everyone else, made it a little bit less personal.   - Allie Bryan And most people were very understanding. But there was one girl that was extremely mean and hurtful.   And I was just really bullying us on social media because   - Adam Bryan I had known her when I was early 20s to the church and I haven't had contact with her in a long time. And so she started saying all this stuff and it was like judge judgmental of you, like, oh, wait a minute, you've never met my wife or this child.   - Adam Bryan You're not at all involved in our life or situation. You're in another state. How how are you speaking as if you haven't talked to you in ten years? How are you speaking? As if, you know, very judgmental. And and she did later apologize.   - Adam Bryan It was a month or so later, she said, you know, what I said was wrong.   - Allie Bryan Well, then come to find out her dad had abandoned her as a kid. And so for her, that post was a trigger for her. And so whenever I realized that, like, oh, she was triggered, you know. And so you just never know where someone's coming from and still stay.   - Liesel Mertes It still stinks.   - Liesel Mertes If you are summing up like what the what the kernel is of of what you receive when you're feeling either shamed or blamed, what is what is the primary message that you pick up from people?   - Allie Bryan The first thing that comes to my mind is you failed. Yeah. And that's still thankfully the Lord has provided two years of counseling   - Adam Bryan And you failed her.   - Allie Bryan Right. And that's been something I'm I struggle with as I failed as a mom. It wasn't enough for her. And so then when people kind of project that, that's it just kind of reinforces. Yeah. Because I definitely feel like I wasn't enough because now she is thriving and she's doing amazing and her family loves her and   - Adam Bryan Still delayed delays issues,   - Allie Bryan though. I'm so, so thankful because that was the ultimate reason. Like we want you to thrive and you're not thriving here with us. It hurts that. Lord, why couldn't she have thrived with us? You know, that's still it's still still a huge pain.     MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Adam Bryan What's one of the painful difficulties of through counseling as well is this this and this is what so many people don't understand. We're in this state of we've lost a daughter just like death, except she's not dead. She's still alive.   - Adam Bryan And so you actually have to see her.   - Allie Bryan And we made the choice.   - Adam Bryan And we made the choice. Yeah. And so the the loss is similar in that that person is no longer in your life. So there's the loss like death, but not it's different.   - Adam Bryan And so the church at large and in your community of people, everyone I don't see anyone knows how to deal with death, but a lot of people know how to. Oh, you bring meals and you're there and you write letters and you do this.   - Adam Bryan But when you say this, people are non-existent, then so will you go and you say, I've lost a daughter and they go, oh, so sorry. And then there's nothing else. And they don't know how to. And. And on one hand, I don't blame them. But on the other hand, it was incredibly difficult.   - Adam Bryan And so with the kids, everything else. Natalie, we're going to counselling for how do we process loss and grief, which is what we've been working through.   - Allie Bryan So, yeah, with the kids, it's just a constant. We try to be really open in our communication. We still talk about her like we'll bring up memories.   - Allie Bryan We kept our family pictures up for a while, but then that was becoming a trigger for me seeing that.   - Allie Bryan And so it's just being mindful of cause I get triggered a lot even still throughout our house. And I think for me, feeling like there's almost like I only had a small window of time to grieve and to be better. And so that's still the struggle.   - Adam Bryan And then even with the kids of, you know, one of them is taking longer to grieve and it's two years later starting to come up and just attempting to being patient with this, because it's yeah, there's there's no rulebook on how this looks.   - Allie Bryan One day, our oldest saw writing, filling out some paperwork for something random. And he came later and told us he was scared that he was filling out paperwork for him to go to another family, that there had been tension with him.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Ali, what do some of those, you know, February 2020 triggers look like for you in any given week?   - Allie Bryan Well, even this morning, my daughter was in her room crying and that woke me up. And it sounded just like her because that was one of the triggers that she wouldn't sleep a lot. And so she just lay in bed and like make mindless sounds and noises. And so I wasn't getting a lot of sleep at that time. And so this morning I woke up to that sound. And I had to like, no, that's not.   - Allie Bryan Or even seeing any, any little black girls around. That's a that's a trigger for me that looked like her. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And how does that have a familiar path of emotion that those triggers go down that you you find yourself? Is it sadness, anger that all of the above, you know, sadness and crying?   - Allie Bryan It happened one time I was hosting our church like welcoming people in and a family came in and the mom was white and the little girl was black. And like, I just started crying. I had to walk away and leave because. And it can feel so foolish or like it's not that big of a deal. Elie Boyer's altogether. But that was really difficult because I still I'm I'm still sad that we can't have her. And so it's just that symbol of.   Yeah, what we've lost.   - Liesel Mertes You know, what in this journey, have there been meaningful gestures or people that you were like that man that matter that came in just the right time of people who, even if they didn't get the entirety of it, you know, have been helped more along the way. And what did they aren't like?   - Allie Bryan One of the first things. I had one of my good friends. I think it was really one of the only gestures while we were dissolving. So she was still in our home. She came in, just dropped off a meal on my front porch and wrote a little note and left, which was so sweet for my personality. So I'm more introverted and I was the only.   - Adam Bryan And that was that was the only like meal or gesture.   - Allie Bryan And it was so it was so sweet.   - Allie Bryan And I still remember it. I and I remember shortly after we dissolved. And I I had very frank open conversations with my close friends about how they hurt me. Like I need to get this out. And they were very apologetic. And I think we've all kind of learned from that. But they, too, my friends, came over and helped me like deep clean my house from top to bottom. And that was like that was their way of gesture to help.   - Adam Bryan But just we had one family give us a gift card to go for. It was like a Chick-Fil-A just, you know, 20 bucks. Yeah. At least that it. It says we see you. Yes. Yeah.   See you here. Like, it's not like we're sitting home going we're we're all of our free meals.   - Liesel Mertes Right. But it's I see you.   - Adam Bryan And so whether it's showing up and mowing their lawn or raking them or just doing something saying, I see you're going through a difficult time and yet I can't fix I can't relax, I don't I don't even know how to process this, but I know it's difficult.   And so I'm going to do this   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Adam Bryan Was that something they say were  some even during even after we transitioned her, there would be weeks and months of nothing. And usually they wouldn't ask us. They would say, hey, how how is she? Have you heard from her? Right. You know, she's fine. But the rest of us are struggling to put our feet in front of it. You know, one in front of the other. Thank you for asking how she is.   - Adam Bryan You know, that's the smart ass answer. I'd want to get back to them. But you would just say, oh, she's doing great.   - Liesel Mertes But I hear it left. You feeling still. You still uncertain You haven't even given thought, right? Right. That this could be anything more than a relief. Right.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. Oh, yeah. The burden is lifted. The sack of rocks you're carrying is now off your back. So you guys would be maybe OK.   - Adam Bryan It's not a saga rocks. It's a person that we loved and cared for and still do. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that. You know, you you have reference throughout. You know, there is not a playbook for this. Yeah, not well equipped. What? What words? I mean, on the one hand, adoption can be beautiful. And that's.   We still love adoption. The thing. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What do you what do you wish could have been said to a younger version of you in hindsight, whether that was beginning or in the midst of it, like or or, you know, reframing it for someone that's listening, that is maybe at a, you know, a number of points sharing their own journey.   - Adam Bryan I think we would respond differently. But so I'll let you speak first. I'll give you. Yes. Yeah.   - Allie Bryan The first thing comes to mind is love does not heal trauma and trauma. Brain doesn't always know that.   - Adam Bryan You're going to say run away.   - Allie Bryan Yeah. That you you can't out love trauma. In my opinion, no. By a miracle of the Lord, of course. But that was one thing I had to come to grips with. Like, no, there is like there is scientific issues in her brain from trauma as a young child cause she's been through so much. And yeah, you can't you can't out love. I think that's.   - Adam Bryan But I also think, you know, we were obedient and faithful to what we were called to do. Right. And we were called to adopt her. And then we were called to transition her. And I could sit here for another hour and go through all of those things. And we were faithful to that. And so what would I say is it's going to be hard, but stay faithful to the calling in what is on your heart and how do we.   - Adam Bryan How do I express this? Just love. Well, for however long that is.   - Liesel Mertes I think I would also say for anyone, because I get that question from some people like, hey, we're thinking about adoption or thinking.   - Allie Bryan I think I would encourage people to make sure you have a strong foundation of support, whether that's counseling or church or friends of like, okay, we're going into battle and we need your support because we came in very naively   - Adam Bryan and didn't recognize you not knowing that we were the only people in a large circle that have that have adopted.   So.   - Allie Bryan Right. And so we were we kind of just started winging it. And then we got really exhausted winging it. And then we couldn't find the tools because there was not a lot of post adoption tools. There's a ton of adoption tools for adopting and. And raising everyone's for you when you're adopting and they're so excited and they're at the airport when you come home with her and and then and then you're home.   - Adam Bryan You know, there is not a church. And in society there's not a lot of post-adoption help. Right. It's pretty sparse.   - Liesel Mertes Are there any other things that you feel like it's important to give voice to that you didn't get a chance to say? I don't think so.   - Allie Bryan You know, I think just speaking for all like the thousands of families on their Facebook, even just in the Facebook group that I'm in right now, that have that have to go silent because of safety and shame. Just speaking out on their behalf, because we are we are not, you know, just a few.   - Allie Bryan We are many. And they all deserve a voice and they deserve a voice to be able to share their story without being shamed.   - Adam Bryan And that it's this is a part of life and dealing with, you know, sin in the world and just that things are gonna go perfectly. So, yeah, that they're not alone.   - Adam Bryan Yeah. You know, when this happened, we discovered how much pain so many people are in in bars. Even though it was painful and difficult and we lost a relationship not near what other people have gone through, we said we want to be a voice and advocate for everyone else to say take care of these people that are having to go silent, love on them. They're grieving, they're struggling. And when they transition, love on them as if it was a death.   Yes. Yeah. Love on them in the same way. Yeah.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   We close with three take-aways from this conversation with Adam and Allie Move towards individuals and families that have experienced a dissolved adoption.These transitions can be full of a lot of pain.  Give what you can:  a meal, a gift certificate, a house cleaning.  Each gesture matters. Be aware that the family left behind will most likely need help beyond the transition.Adam, Allie, and their children are still in counseling, processing grief two years after their disrupted adoption.  Ask families how they are doing and offer gestures of support beyond the immediate days and weeks after the transition.  Adoption can be beautiful, complex, and isolating.Allie and Adam talked about how they felt without resources, like they were silently drowning.  If you have friends who have adopted, reach out, ask them how they are doing, provide a listening ear.  They might be struggling and very much in need of a friend.  Or point them to supportive resources, some of which are available in the show notes. And this is a bonus, fourth take-away.Adam and Allie described a few people that responded primarily out of their experience:  there was the family who had adopted that could not continue to be in relationship.  The Facebook commenter who was shaped by her own history of abandonment.  We are always responding to other people’s pain out of our own experience.  If this episode was triggering, eliciting strong emotion, take a moment to ask the question of what personal experience you might be living out of in your response.    Thanks to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, offering comprehensive HR support for small and medium businesses, and Handle with Care Consulting, where we create workplace first responders.    OUTRO    

– Karen Ng Do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family.   INTRO   Suicide is complicated and tragic.  It is intensely personal, specific to an individual.  How suicide is experienced and interpreted also differs between communities and cultures.  Today, we are going to talk to Karen.  Karen is Chinese American.  Since her sister, Karine, committed suicide two years ago, Karen has been on her own journey with grief and loss…and she feels a particular passion to speak to the stigma around mental health among Chinese Americans.  I learned so much in this episode and I am confident you will also.      This episode is on the air thanks to the sponsorship of FullStack PEO.  FullStack helps emerging companies manage their payroll and benefits.  Working with FullStack gives you peace of mind that your people are being taken care of as you grow your company.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Disruption catches managers off guard, unsure of what to do or say to help their people.  Handle with Care Consulting delivers interactive workshops that empower your people to give support when it matters most.    Karen lives in Los Angeles.  She is a recreational runner, an activity that she took up during her divorce proceedings as a sort of therapy.  She also lives with lupus, an auto-immune disease.     - Liesel Mertes Now, you're a person that has been involved in a couple of causes that are close to your heart. Tell us a little bit about some of the charitable work that you've been involved in.   - Karen Ng I started a program, a nationwide program for Lupus Support and education in New York back in 2000 and 2002. It's the first of it was the first of its kind. And it addressed the need for support and education to patients and their families of Asian-American descent who lack the kind of knowledge about how to live with a disease, a chronic disease.   Before moving to LA, she was working for the non-profit sector in New York where she worked with the Coalition of Asian American Children and Families as well as Apex, which provides mentoring for underserved youth.  This led to a public Health Degree and the launch of Cartwheel Initiative, which brought artists to Sri Lanka.  She also launched the Orphans Future Alliance, which funds orphanages in Vietnam.   - Liesel Mertes So one of the things that you wanted to discuss on the podcast was talking about your family and specifically your sister. Could you tell us a little bit more about your family, about their ethnic background, where you fit in the birth order set that?   - Karen Ng Yes, we are a Chinese-American family. My parents came over from Hong Kong when they were younger. And I am one of three sisters.  I'm the oldest. And then there's Klara and then there's Karinee. So there's Karen, Klara and Karine. We all start with the letter K, so. You can kind of see how we were made fun of when we have the three Ks.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. And were you shaped powerfully by being the oldest sister, I'm the oldest of four. And I feel like I. I feel like the oldest almost all the time.   - Karen Ng Definitely. I mean, in Chinese culture, the oldest is, is called judges and judges. Oh. Is always known to kind of take care of her siblings, right? I mean, I needed to be an example for my, my younger sister,   Karine was the youngest sister.  And Karen tells how all of the sisters were different, choosing different instruments to study and languages to learn.  And Karine had a particular flair.    - Karen Ng So she was the kind of creative artist of the family. She was just talented in so many ways. She went to New York City to pursue a career in fashion. She graduated from Parsons School of Design. She loved animals. She was the kind of saved they ran, attains a la moon, bear save the planet kind of girl. And she was a devoted mom to her. Her shiatzu was named Chewy, and she even created and launched her own business. Inspired by Chewy, it was called Central Park Pups, and it was a pet clothing company with a patent to design. She called the hit harness, so she was so full of energy. She loved themed events. She would go to the Renaissance Fair every year, get a group of people to go and dress in costume. She or Halloween was her favorite holiday. She loved parties and costumes and events to kind of show off her creative genius.   - Karen Ng She was a bargain hunter fashionista. She was incredibly resourceful. She could design centerpieces and create special effects for any occasion. She was feisty, gregarious, silly and clever. So, she was just a ball of energy.   The sisters lived in New York together for a while, their lives overlapping quite a bit.    - Karen Ng Family is the most important. Like you can you always you know, you can depend on your family. Family is the most important. So we always grew up with that kind of mentality.   – Liesel Mertes You know, for your younger sister, when did you become aware of any mental health issues that she had?   - Karen Ng So the two years or so before she died, we knew that she was troubled and depressed, she had she had been going through a lot. She had a sudden divorce. And that's why she moved to Las Vegas to start, start fresh, start anew. And she was going through a lot. Relationship wise with an abusive boyfriend. And professionally starting a new business venture with the same person. So, things were complicated and things weren't going well for her. She grew increasingly distant by not responding to texts or emails as often. Whereas before she would, just she's constantly on a phone. She's always texting. So that was different. And she had extreme mood swings. She'd lash out to suddenly the family members in public, like yelling at my mom or insulting me. And she was increasingly hostile. So, we knew that she was struggling. She would call me in tears and tell me how upset she was. I'd listen to her vent. I sent her encouragement cards and books.   - Karen Ng And we, we knew she needed help. So she, she agreed to see a therapist, but she refused, absolutely refused to take any medications. So, and this was partly, partly because my mom was very strongly against any medications for mental health conditions. And I think it relates to the misconceptions around mental health. And she was highly vocal against it. She thought it changed the person and it was highly detrimental. So she was very adamant. You do not take any medications. And so Karine was influenced and also felt the same way.   - Liesel Mertes How is that for you in support role? Did you feel like that was a good conclusion? Tell me more about it.   - Karen Ng Because if she if she would if there was something that could help her. Both my sister Klara and I knew that she might need medications to help control her, her and her mood swings. Her. Her. What was happening to her. And we were very, we found we couldn't we couldn't convince either my mom or Karine to consider that possibility.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Karen Ng There are three kind of brief scenes that flashed through my mind when I think about, you know, the moment or the time when I found out what happened. And these scenes get in my mind there. They're hazy on the details, but try to kind of describe the three dreams.   - Karen Ng So that day, I was on the treadmill at the gym in the middle of the day. And I you know, I normally don't interrupt my workout when I get a phone call. But I thought it was my, I saw was my mom. So I'd started pick up and she asked me if I had been able to reach Karine because she was really worried. I hadn't. But I promised her that I'd leave the gym and work on finding her. So I called my other sister, Klara, and we tried texting and calling her, but there was no response.   - Karen Ng So then the next scene in my mind is me walking back home from the gym. And I get a call from my sister Klara, who said Karine had attempted suicide. Her ex-boyfriend had found her and he had called the ambulance and they were taking her to the hospital.   - Karen Ng So immediately obvious, it was obvious that my sister and I would have to go to Vegas to see her see her in the hospital. We knew it was a serious situation, but we didn't know how serious. And I even joked that I'd, I'd punish her when I went to see her.   - Karen Ng  And then the third scene. The last scene is when I'm at home and I'm taking a shower and I'm anxious and annoyed that I have to suddenly drive to Vegas from L.A., and I get another call. And I pick up even with the shower running and Klara tells me that Karine didn't make it. And I'm like, what do you mean she didn't make it? You know, we're going to the hospital to see her now. You know, that doesn't make sense. So I did not believe her. I did not accept it. I know. I must've hung up and I was screaming in the shower. This isn't happening. I kept repeating it. This isn't happening. This isn't happening. I was yelling at the top of my lungs. I didn't care, you know, who was the apartments kind of small. So, you can kind of hear through the walls. But I was dreaming water spraying all over and I kept screaming the same three words as I was throwing things into my bag.   - Karen Ng And I said, this isn't happening. This is not happening. And as if, you know, my words could transform the reality into a dream. Because I didn't think this was happening. So what was the immediate recollection of what happened.   - Liesel Mertes  I'm so sorry. That's. This is horrible news to receive. You know about your sister. And as, as much as there are those, those three scenes of the immediate. Then there's all of the logistics and communicating with family.   - Liesel Mertes Did your mom, with her particular feelings about medication or about mental health? Was there a particular way in which she received the news of her daughter's suicide? Because it sounds like maybe there, there was some reticence or shame issues around mental health that I imagine someone's death could only magnify those in some ways that the.   - Karen Ng At first, they didn't really think of it as a mental health or issue. They thought of it as a problem. It's like a puzzle that needed to be solved. Something happened that caused her to do what she did. So, they kept replaying the details of finding out what happened that day, in the days before about what argument she got into with, you know, the ex-boyfriend didn't.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Karen Ng I think what is a little more relevant is the way she decided to take her own life. She actually had thought it through. And it wasn't a spur of the moment decision. She. I had learned how to connect the tailpipe or the, the way you connect to the car so that, you know, you know, you have carbon monoxide poisoning in the car. So. She had figured out a way to do it, had planned to park the car outside of a different, different house where there was no. No video, security cameras and so there were elements, there were things that suggested she had planned to do this. Even though the kind of haphazard, less like note that she scribbled off on pieces, the scratch paper, her last goodbyes were, were very brief and in wouldn't I wouldn't even call it a suicide note.   – Liesel Mertes I mean, I'm imagining you are a grieving sister. You're also the, the oldest daughter in your sibling. You know, order. And as you alluded to, the certain expectations with being the oldest, you are also the daughter to grieving parents. What kinds of things were you finding were being asked of you emotionally in that immediate aftermath? What sort of roles were you playing?   - Karen Ng When you ask that, first thing I think of is, it is being asked, well, why didn't you know? You know, how could you not know? You're the older sister. So didn't she? Didn't she tell you it was wrong? So, of course that wasn't very helpful because that me meant I failed her. And I wasn't there to. Your help her. Through her troubles. That's a hard question they have to carry. It was it wasn't a question those directly asked by people. It was more I mean, mostly my mom. Right, so I don't think, I don't think people would be that insensitive to imply you.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, that brings us to something that we've discussed of the particularities of suicide within the Asian-American community. What, what were you feeling that your broader community was communicating to you, to your parents about what it meant to walk through suicide as a family?   - Karen Ng So immediately after this happened, we had to decide whether or not to disclose, you know, cause of death. In writing her obituary and kind of sharing the news, do we mention suicide? Do we use that word? And there was a lot of reluctance. My mom's gut reaction was no. How could we tell people that she took her own life? You know how. How shameful. You know, what would people think? And it would it would. It has implications for the family that somehow it was their fault because she killed herself. And why would she do that? She comes from a good family. She had more than most people in this world and must have something to do with her family. So, it took a lot of convincing to persuade my mom that being truthful about the situation was the way we needed to go. We had to face the truth and not hide.   - Karen Ng And I was so proud of my dad when he stood up at the memorial service in front of the entire crowd of family and friends and, and said that Karine died by suicide. And confronting it in your head on. You know, I I did not expect that. And suicide is just not talked about.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that could feel profoundly lonely.   - Karen Ng And seeing a therapist, like I said, is is a sign of weakness. And there's a lack of, there there's a lack of actual culturally competent mental health services. So, when I was looking for a therapist, I really wanted someone who understood my background, you know. There's so many cultural nuances, language wise and behavior wise, that it would just take too much time to explain to a non-Asian therapists. You know, they just wouldn't get it. So, you know, it was it took me it I tried to find a, an Asian therapist, and it wasn't it wasn't that easy.   - Liesel Mertes How about within your your friends and family? Did you feel like they had language or meaningful gestures to come alongside you in a way that mattered? Like, what were they doing? Were they bringing food or they send a note?   - Karen Ng So one of the most helpful things that someone did for us in the aftermath was do a meal delivery service. I think that was a complete lifesaver. She set up a meal train where people could contribute to help pay for a meal delivery service. So every, every night or every, you know, all our dinners were, were, you know, already set up for us and not having to decide and prepare what to eat every day was so helpful. Because, you know, you have no appetite and we just eat what was put in front of us. And that was important because we needed to eat.   - Liesel Mertes Any other things that people did that felt important?   - Karen Ng Yes. Another helpful thing was somebody was a kind of like a point person to serve as the information deliver, you know, via Facebook. He, he shared the details of the memorial and other other, other helpful things, so that took the burden off of us.   - Karen Ng So it gave us our space to, to mourn and concentrate only on the relevant details of what we needed to do for the service and not to interact with, you know, so many other concerned people.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, in the midst of that, was there anything that people said or did that even if they weren't meaning, it felt really hurtful?   - Karen Ng Well, everyone everything that was said was met well-meaning, but may not have been received that way, for example. When there's a couple phrases that really, really irked me. One was she's in a better place and no, she's not. She's dead. I just kept think issues in no place. And I don't want her there. I want her here. So that was not helpful. Yeah. And then the other one was. Everything happens for a reason. No, there's absolutely no reason why my sister is dead. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What are some of the things for someone who has not had a relative commit suicide that make that first year particularly hard?   - Karen Ng It's hard to even just open up the conversation about suicide. It's hard to, I have to explain what happened or will have to decide how much to share and, and in meeting new people who, who didn't know are it's also. How do you share? You know, when people ask about your family, you know, how many siblings do you have? Well, what do you say? So that was that does the hardest part in the first year. I, I struggled with whether to say, oh, I have well, I have one sister or I have two sisters. And now I, you know, I have come to the point where, I mean, I'm proud to say that I had I had two sisters, I have two sisters because I've always had two sisters my entire life. You know, I can't negate the fact that she's, she's been a part of my life for 38 years. So, I have two sisters. One of them is no longer here.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, if what you say is one of the most common misconceptions that people have about suicide, if you you could say of only people like grasped this part of what it is to have someone commit suicide.   - Karen Ng That only people with severe mental illnesses die by suicide. Because Karine was a highly functioning, accomplished businesswoman who was a property manager, she was a property manager, a businesswoman, house fixer, upper, she. She was, you know, very productive, socially functioning adult. And she was not diagnosed with any mental illness. So, that's not a requirement. Yeah. And I know that.   - Liesel Mertes Speaking about suicide, particularly as it relates to the Asian-American community, is important to you. What would you say? And you've talked a little bit around this, but what are some of the particularly harmful assumptions within the Asian-American community about suicide? And this is, this is a.. Is it actually. When I say Asian-American, is that like too broad, too? Is it meaningful to you to talk about Chinese American? Like I'm suddenly struck that that might be the equivalent of saying to someone who's black, like, tell me about an African perspective. And then like, I'm Ghanaian, I'm not African. So, I submit that to you. Is that like an appropriate term to talk about Asian-American or?   - Karen Ng I think that it's distinct. There's a is a big distinction between Asian and Asian-American. So, yes, better to say Asian-American because ah, our experiences and, and our culture is different from being saying Asian. But you're right that it is kind of generalizing all the different ethnicity.   - Liesel Mertes Forgive me for that. I would like to speak more accurately.   - Karen Ng I mean, I. I can always speak to my Chinese. Yeah. Experience. But. Let me ask you that.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you. Thank you for your graciousness in that. As I said, I am on my own learning curve about caring well, about different nuances within that. So, thank you for your kindness and even answering about Asian-Americans. Let me ask you, what are the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community of around suicide if you think like this is a really harmful assumption that this community has?   - Karen Ng Well, I think even the word in Chinese for what mental illness is? The word is some *Chinese word*. Even that has negative implications because if you break it down, some *Chinese word* means crazy and illnesses and *Chinese word* is illness. So it's some *Chinese word*, crazy illness and some *Chinese word*. *Chinese word* means mental hospital. So it's like crazy hospital. It's like the loony bin. The, the you know, the place where a mentally deranged people go. So, it's so stigmatizing. That it prevents people, you know, from seeking help or anything to anything to do with mental illness. Kind of. In general is this no shrinking back response or. Oh, no. It's recoiling when even hearing the word no. So that that is very harmful.   - Liesel Mertes What word of insight would you give to someone who is perhaps listening and they have just recently lost someone? Specifically, if they're from a Chinese American community.   - Karen Ng Well, I would encourage them to find and speak to someone who's had the same experience or going through the same thing to. To know that they're not alone. They don't have to be going through this alone, that there are other people that this happens to other people. And defined the, you know, to find that community that. That is going to help their healing. It doesn't have to be in the Chinese community.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And if someone is listening and they and they think, oh, I have, you know, I've got a coworker or a friend or a family member and they're going through something similar. And I, I want to be a good friend. What should I do? I feel really awkward and I don't know what to do. What words of insight would you offer to them?   - Karen Ng Insight would. Inside would probably be that. A person's sense of time is going to be completely warped and they're going to be very just completely distracted. So, expect them to be unfocused. And if in the workplace of view, if you're only given some straightforward directions or one project at a time. That's, that's preferable because, you know, probably just concentrating on existing. And, maybe you'd be aware be. Be sensitive to, to what you're saying. In just in a general context, because I remember being hypersensitive to certain conversations, you know, just overhearing people, you know, talking about their their, their weekends about, you know, going out and partying and getting wasted and, and doing all these, you know. People's activities are just it just completely tick me off. Yeah, we start to hear things in a different light. So.   - Karen Ng So just to be sensitive. How to maybe how to help someone who's going through the same thing it would have been would have been helpful for me to know what kind of resources are out there. If someone had actually done the research and looked at local support groups or events or, or therapists, it would have made it easier for me to find that support earlier.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yeah. This great point that it's, it's such additional work in the midst of grieving to have to go through the logistics and do the research on. Are there are other things that you would like to add about your story or about holding it within your community that you feel you didn't get to give voice to?   - Karen Ng The idea. I need to convey is positive mental health is critical to physical health. And I've learned that. Clearly with my lupus, because one of the triggers of lupus is stress, so we're constantly encouraged to minimize stress because it can cause inflammation.   - Karen Ng And so, the mind body connection is so powerful and, and with and also with lupus, lupus, it can be invisible. So, meaning you can look fine with the help of a little makeup maybe. And there can be but there can be inflammation in your body. So, with grief as well, you can look fine and go about doing your business, but there can be great pain happening inside.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key take-aways after my conversation with Karen…   Our community helps to shape our reality.Karen talked about the particular challenges within a Chinese-American community:  the reluctance to seek help for depression or mental illness, the pressure to be strong.  What kind of a culture are you a part of when it comes to grief and loss?  Is it an open one that allows space for those that struggle?  Or is it one that forces people to bury their struggles?  How can you be part of co-creating a more life-affirming culture? In the aftermath of a suicide, loved ones can be unfocused and adrift.Karen talked about the importance of getting very straightforward directions, taking one project at a time.  For managers or coworkers, be aware of this element of distraction and adjust your workflow accordingly.  Perhaps this means streamlining tasks and having more regular check-ins in those first few months. There is great power and importance to listening to the experience of people that come from a background or context that is different than your own, especially if you are part of a majority culture.You will not immediately resonate with or understand their perspective…in translating cultures or navigating grief, you will most-likely make mistakes along the way.  If you make a mistake, like I did in referring to Asian-Americans instead of Chinese Americans, accept correction, apologize, and try to modify your perspective moving forwards.   Thanks again to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, the forward-thinking benefits company that serves emerging companies and to Handle with Care Consulting, training your staff to be Workplace First Responders.   OUTRO    

And I think that was when I really learned that, you know, all our healing doesn't happen at the same time. I think I was very impatient to just get better. I just wanted everything to go away. And I didn't realize that, you know, I had accumulated trauma from some past events and then from this event. And there was so many different aspects to healing.   INTRO   Today, we are talking about post-traumatic-stress disorder:  what it looks like in the life of one woman after a medical accident AND how you can help someone that has lived through something awful, and it still bearing the effects.    We are sponsored, today, by FullStack PEO.  FullStack PEO is company devoted to small businesses.  FullStack offers turnkey HR for emerging companies.  And we are sponsored by Handle with Care HR Consulting, helping you support your people when they need it most.    I first met my guest, Elsie Iudicello, in college.  Elsie has an infectious laugh that bubbles over.  She traveled to Honduras, digging wells for impoverished people.  And she was a great dancer.  These days, Elsie can be found in Florida where she homeschools her four boys.  And you might have a pre-conceived notion of what that looks like.  But you would probably be wrong.    Liesel Mertes You make homeschooling look really cool. You have like homeschooling alligators and crawdads. It's like it's very intense looking homeschooling. Tell me a little bit about your boys.   Elsie Iudicello So, I have four boys. The eldest is about to turn twelve and my youngest is seven, and we homeschool all of them. They are. They all have very different personalities, but they all have a beautiful wildness about them, about their childhood. That is really precious. It's interesting to see how long their innocence has been sustained throughout their growing years just by virtue of being home schooled, spending a lot of time in nature.   Elsie Iudicello And yeah, it's I always feel like as they're growing up like a big treasure hunter, they're just I'm seeing things and they're also slowly revealing things about themselves. And it's a real gift to be their mom.   Liesel Mertes   What was one of the most impactful moments of today for you?   Elsie Iudicello Well, it's gorgeous in Florida right now. It's truly beautiful. I'm sorry for anyone that is buried in snow right now, but it is beautiful here right now. We wait for it all year. And, you know, my boys are outside all day building forts and making weapons out of sticks. And at one point, my son, my youngest, called me out there. He is not neurotypical. So, it's always interesting what kinds of insights he has and what moments he chooses to deliver them in this afternoon. He called me out there and we made a fort together and. He kept saying it's so important for moms to build forts with their boys. He kept saying that over and over again, and I asked him why is it so important for mothers to build forts with their boys? And he said, so they can play so their heart, so their hearts can play together, so they can play together in their hearts. And he started talking about something we talk a lot about as a family, which is the idea of fullness vs. busyness. And he started saying how much he loves the fullness of his life and that any time I feel like I'm getting too busy, busy, I should come outside and enjoy the fullness of life with him. And that was a pretty big moment in my day. It kind of turned it around, actually.   In addition to their four boys, Elsie cares for a host of chickens, some goats, a few cats, a dog, and a pig.    She is a writer, contributing monthly to the Wild and Free magazine.  And, although she hates flying, Elsie also travels, speaking at conferences and events that reach mothers, regardless of school choice.   Elsie Iudicello I think it's important to realize that, you know, different kinds of schooling work for different kinds of kids and that children can still have a really wonderful, wild and preserved childhood even if they are going to traditional schools. And that's been really encouraging to see to just moms that really love their kids and want to fight for their childhoods.   Liesel Mertes Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. We wanted to discuss some disruption that happened as you were in the midst of your childbearing years. Could you set the scene as to where you were in life when you had this accident that it happened?   Elsie Iudicello Sure. So, we were living in Miami at the time my husband was a grad student. He was earning his Ph.D. And I had a two-year-old and a 1 year old and we were living in a small house just off of campus. My whole family is in Miami. My four grandparents, my parents, several aunts, uncles, cousins, and a very robust church family. So thankfully, we were not in a position of isolation or loneliness. We were just newlyweds with a lot of babies.   Elsie was pregnant with her third son at the time of the accident, when a brand-new doctor botched her care.  Elsie was exhausted.  She did not know that she was carrying twins and had just miscarried one of the children.  Her doctor didn’t realize either and said that she was, maybe, suffering from lymphoma.   Elsie Iudicello And I was very taken aback by that. And I had mentioned at the start of the visit that I had an allergy to a certain kind of medication. And for whatever reason, she chose to prescribe that medication to me. And I was in such a state of grief and bewilderment. And because I don't have a pharmacology license. I did not understand what the label said. It didn't say the name of the drug I was allergic to. It had another name, but it was in that family. And so, I took that medication.   Elsie Iudicello And very quickly, my body started to shut down and I went into complete anaphylaxis. Jeff drove me to the hospital. We called family that were able to get to our house very quickly. And if you've ever had the experience of going to the E.R. and waiting hours and hours to be seen, that is great, because it means it's not super urgent. I just remember walking in through the doors and it just being absolute chaos. They had to get me back there, start all kinds of intravenous lines, pump all kinds of drugs, and I could feel my body shutting down.   Elsie Iudicello So, having that experience of, you know, feeling yourself dying is, is a very, very, very vivid and painful and surreal thing to experience. And unfortunately, thankfully, they were able to save me. Unfortunately, it took a long time for the anaphylaxis process to resolve because I had they put me on steroids, which suppressed the reactions. But every time I ran out of steroid medication, the anaphylaxis would flare up again and I would end up in the hospital and stuff.   So, Elsie has the awful, traumatic experience of anaphylactic shock.  And then she keeps dealing with flare-ups.   Elsie Iudicello I remember one day my college roommate, Jocelyn, who had moved to Miami, was over for dinner with a colleague of hers. And it was that day my steroid had run out and I walked to the kitchen to get something in. My heart started racing and it was incredibly painful, and I collapsed. And the next thing I knew, I was on a gurney in the ambulance on my way to the hospital again.   Elsie Iudicello And they started checking for pulmonary embolisms and oh, my goodness, all confusing.   Elsie Iudicello I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and there were many sights and sounds and smells that became embedded in my cellular memory and began triggering panic attacks. So, I do remember that by the fourth and fifth visits and this was to the same hospital. So of course, they had thorough records of what was happening. They realized that there was probably something else going on because my body would start mimicking an anaphylactic reaction even though I wasn't having one. So, by the end, by the last visit, I was no longer anaphylactic. But because the steroids would run out, any little sensation that felt akin to the anaphylactic reaction would have caused my body to imitate one. So, my skin, for example, when I got home after the first hospital visit, I was covered inside and outside with hives, and my digestive system had been burned really badly. So, I couldn't sleep for many, many days. I would sleep maybe 30 minutes at a time and then be awake for hours and hours and hours because my heart was racing or because I was just so uncomfortable for all from all of the hives. And I was also afraid to eat anything lest I have another anaphylactic reaction.   Liesel Mertes You're the mom of two small children. At the same time, which sounds really totalizing. What? So, for someone who has not dealt with up to this point PTSD, what, what are some of the things that you feel like are really important to be understood that like the average person doesn't get?   Elsie Iudicello I don't think I realized how all-consuming it is. Some my very limited experience with PTSD was. Was probably just in the realm of film and TV where someone would hear some little thing and, you know, have a panic attack or something. And that was it. I didn't realize all the things that can come with it.   Elsie Iudicello I didn't realize that it's almost like another person living in the house all of a sudden tell me that I didn't realize the.   Elsie Iudicello I just mean that it's, it's like this new entity that you have to get to know and understand and figure out, but you hate them, and you don't want them there. So, it's difficult to get to know something that you hate so much.   Elsie Iudicello I didn't really understand all of my different triggers, all of the things that would send me into a panic attack. I don't think I was prepared for the deep level of exhaustion that comes with it. And I know I was newly pregnant, so I think at first, I had a tendency to write off any exhaustion to the pregnancy, but it was a kind of exhaustion that I'd never known before. And I see now that a lot of that was the PTSD. And at times my brain would be very foggy. So, there would be people trying to reason with me about things, not understanding that.   Elsie Iudicello It has nothing to do with logic, but it could clearly communicate that because I was so tired, I was so sleep deprived, my brain was so foggy, I was so malnourished, all these other things that it's really not a logic issue. And that was not something that I could clearly describe at all,   Liesel Mertes What were some of the ways that people made you feel most supported in those early days of dealing with PTSD? And I a phrase that purposefully, because I imagine there are aspects where support looks a little bit different in the seasons that come after, but in those early days, how are you best supported by the people around you?   Elsie Iudicello It was the friends that didn't try to fix the situation because we definitely had some well-meaning people that came over and just thought, you just need to be cheered up. You just need to get over it. Or saying things like, remember your babies, you should be happy that you have all these babies. You're so blessed. You should be happy and strong for them. So, the people that helped you were the ones that didn't try to fix things, that didn't try to hurry us out of grief or sadness. The friends that would come and just sit next to the gurney in the hospital and hold my hand. The people that, you know, would say I had one friend in particular that just she was like, I heard you had really bad hives and that you were uncomfortable.   Elsie Iudicello And I know you love P.G. Woodhouse. So, here is a book and some Benadryl and I love you. And that was that was so gracious and so good because she wasn't trying to rush me out of anything.   Elsie Iudicello And of course, we had a lot of friends that would just show up with meals or come and play with our kids. It was really difficult to not be able to play with my children at that time because their desire to play did not decrease when my ability to play decreased. So, it was really good to have friends that would just come over and throw themselves on the floor with my boys and play with them.   Liesel Mertes I imagine, I mean, birth is no small thing also. And to be pregnant and going through all of this upheaval, then you have bringing a child into world and especially, especially the infants. They're pretty unrelenting. What did that look like as a chapter in your journey with PTSD? Was there a particular anxiety or apprehension that you felt heightened as you approached your due date?   Elsie Iudicello Sure. Well, I was on bed rest for the last eight weeks of my pregnancy, which was very difficult because I could hear my little boys playing in the house. My mom would come over every day and watch them and I could hear them, and I was stuck in bed with a lot of fear. So, I think I wrestled with a lot of that stuff while I was on bed rest.   Elsie Iudicello But the other side of this whole coin is that when I was in the hospital, I can't remember which visit it was, but they looked at my blood levels and realized I was still pregnant, and they advised me to terminate. Kind of gently advised that I consider that due to my health, due to the amount of medications that had been pumped into me, the radiation, all these other things, and I said no. And I always saw my son as a fighter. And I could not believe that he survived all of that with me. And so, in a lot of ways, I felt less alone. I felt like he was my teammate. Like he was my my brother in arms. You know, he, he fought every step of the way with me. And I felt like. It was not birthing him alone. It really felt like something we would be doing together.   Elsie Iudicello And it's really interesting how he was born at home. They had kind of said always going to have all these issues. And I saw my midwife and, you know, we went for the extra ultrasounds and everything looked good. And I went into labor in Florida. You are legally not allowed to give birth at home before thirty-seven weeks and thirty-six weeks. In a couple of days, I went into labor. So, we went to the hospital and my midwife said, I don't want to be insulting, but you kind of remind me of those of those, those faithful lovely dog moms that are about to give birth to puppies. And then a storm comes, and they hide, and they wait until the storm is over and then they give birth. And it was very much like that.   Elsie Iudicello I was actually in labor for seventy-seven hours. And I think a lot of that. And it was, you know, contractions every ten minutes. It was it was labor, and it was seventy-seven hours. And it was. Oh, it was terrible. It's terrible, but that. That last day I was able to go home because I hit thirty seven days and I worked in my garden and I have a very visceral memory of being on my hands and knees with my fingers in the dirt and my belly, like just kissing the earth a little bit because I was extremely large and, and feeling the contractions and then going inside and a couple of hours later giving birth in our living room. And there were in something very redeeming and very fitting. It felt like a like a victory for both of us to have come that far together.   Liesel Mertes That's a beautiful story and a very long labor. I hear you. That's a long, year long as you think about how PTSD, because I imagine it's not it's not tidy. It's like, well, that that is a beautiful and poetically told moment and that it wasn't like, OK, so now you've had the baby and that chapter's done now and you move on to the next thing and taking on the next challenges. How has the shadow of that medical accident and your journey afterwards, how does that continue to play itself out?   Elsie Iudicello I think in the in the first year, it was obviously. It was horrible. I mean, there's no way to sugar coat it. I became intensely afraid of doctors. And even when I went to the hospital with my initial labor, I just remember the poor nurse trying to put trying to give me an I.V., which is saline. And I kept having her read the label to me over and over and over. And I think she had read it like eight times before I let her hook it up and then taking my kids to the pediatrician. You know, if they needed to get the shot or any kind of medication, just, you know, compulsively calling over and over again. And interestingly enough, that never left me. And just last year, my son had a prescription filled out and it seemed like a very strange amount of medication. And I called and sure enough, they had made a very big mistake with the dosage. And I'm glad I checked because that would have been horrible. So, you know, that mistrust of, of doctors was something very profound that followed for a long time.   Elsie Iudicello I did suffer from severe panic attacks. I think the best way to describe it is that. You know, if you have something that triggers your adrenaline, a car backfire or something like that, and your adrenaline starts moving. Once you recognize that it was just a car backfire, you can get yourself to calm down. It took me years to get to a place where I could calm down once my adrenaline started going. Once it started, it would just keep going and going and going and going and going. And then, you know, an hour later I would just feel like I had run a marathon. And I didn't realize over the years that I was suffering from adrenal fatigue. That was a big piece in figuring out my health. Part of the reason I didn't know about it is because not a lot of people talk about it. But then also I was really reluctant to actually see a doctor that was not a midwife or a dentist.   Elsie Iudicello So, you know, having those panic, panic attacks in front of my children because we are home all day and I know a lot of people would ask, why on earth are you home schooling if you have a mental illness? And. I never really knew what to say to people when they would say that because even though I had a mental illness. I also had a life and I also had dreams for my children and a lot of love for them. And I had a lot of passion for education and for home schooling. And yes, it was hard. Having panic attacks in front of my children was a hard and brutal thing. But you know what? In many ways and they'll, they'll speak to this today, the ones that remember them more vividly. My oldest said maybe a couple years ago that when he would see me have those. And he is a very sensitive, empathetic person. He's one of the most empathetic people I know. He says that watching that from a young age taught him how to sit in sadness with someone, how to just be present with someone that is sad and to. Not feel uncomfortable and not feel like you need to fill the silence. But to just be beside someone and love them through whatever it is that they're going through.   Elsie Iudicello And I've realized that I think sharing openly with my kids in age appropriate ways. They were able to grow in their empathy and in their care for people that are hurting, and there's a lot of adults I know that don't know how to do that. So, I'm really thankful that we've had the opportunity as a family to grow in that area, even though it's come at a tremendous cost   Liesel Mertes For someone who has not experienced a panic attack. What did that what did that feel like in your body and what did that look like to other people?   Elsie Iudicello They changed a little over the years. There was one day when Jeff dropped a fork and it hit another stack of silverware, I think from the little caddy that inserts into the dishwasher and they clattered to the floor and the noise startled me and I fell to my knees and ended up in the fetal position on the floor. You know, breathing heavily and it's, it's hard because I knew it was just forks and I kept telling myself, it's just forks, it's just forks, it's just forks, what my adrenaline kept running away and I started shaking. And it's sometimes it's painful. It's always exhausting.   Elsie Iudicello There have been times where I've had the type of panic attack, where it's out of body and I'm somewhere else entirely. And that usually happened early on. If I heard a siren at the wrong moment, I was more prone to panic attacks. If I hadn't slept well, if I hadn't had enough to eat. If I hadn't been drinking well.   Liesel Mertes But, you know, when you're when you have a newborn, you're always well rested and well-fed. So always.   Elsie Iudicello So that first year was particularly brutal. I've had I did go to counselling and went through EMDR sessions with my therapist. And that was tremendously helpful to sort through, to revisit and sort through the trauma and put everything. In its place, and I think that was when I really learned that, you know, all our healing doesn't happen at the same time. I think I was very impatient to just get better. I just wanted everything to go away. And I didn't realize that, you know, I had accumulated trauma from some past events and then from this event. And there was so many different aspects to healing. There was the physical healing, the emotional healing, the relationship healing. I mean, Jeff was in grad school and this happened, and he had to carry the load in our home for a long time. And there was a lot that we had to work, work through in that regard. There were a lot of relationships that I handled badly because my perceptions were just off. There were a lot of friendships that I lost simply because especially college friendships, simply because I lost touch.   Elsie Iudicello I fell off the radar and I missed weddings and I missed birthdays and I missed babies being born. And that was that was hard. It was hard to have that moment. I think when I kind of I think I needed to give all of myself to my immediate circle as much as I could to my immediate circle. I didn't have a lot left for the outer rings. And when I was finally able to turn my head and look at the outer rings of my life, all those people that were on those other planes, I had missed so much. It was really hard. It was really hard reconnecting those as you were feeling.   Liesel Mertes I mean, I hear in that the sense of. Yeah. I mean, I was consumed with what was right in front of me. Who were who are the people that were really able to press in to that messiness in a way that was meaningful and supportive. And what did that look like from them?   Elsie Iudicello I would say that the first one was Jeff, the first one was my husband. He would get up early to grade papers. He was a T.A. at the time and then he would go and again, I wasn't sleeping a lot at night. So, you would let me sleep in and he would go wake up all the boys. We had all three kids still in diapers. At this point. So, he would change three different diapers. Feed the older two breakfasts. After the baby was born, he would bring me the baby so that I could nurse him. And then he would go to school and then he would check in throughout the day. And thankfully he was close by. But. Sometimes would drop everything and come home to support me. He built me that beautiful garden in front of our house because he knew that, that it would be a good place for me to heal. And he also didn't discredit me just because I was battling a mental illness. I think sometimes there is that temptation to think that we no longer know ourselves just because we're going through that mental struggle. But Jeff never did that to me. He always listened and he always took what I said seriously. And if he felt that maybe there was another perspective I needed to hear, he found ways to, to introduce that topic and to speak gently about it. He was always very gracious.   Elsie Iudicello There were friends at church to. Again, that. Didn't forget who I was before the accident, but also appreciated that some pretty. Pretty big things had changed in my life that left me changed. It was always really hard when someone would say something like, well, why don't you do this with us? Used to always love doing that. And.   Elsie Iudicello And it was it was good to have friends that just recognized that there were certain things I had to set aside because I just wasn't capable of doing them anymore. But at the same time that I was still myself, if that makes any sense. They were just. I think they were just very sensitive in the way that they loved me. Part of it was that they listened, I think was the big thing. We had a lot of people that stopped by with their mouths full of advice and. Didn't maybe have ears that were ready to listen to what was going on. So, I think people that came over ready to just listen was really, really nice.   Liesel Mertes As someone who has had some years of experience of, you know, living and walking with this, what whether it's a word of hope or insight, what would you or or maybe just commiserating, what would you say to someone who's listening?   Elsie Iudicello I was going to say, can the first words be, I'm so sorry. I think I would say. Firstly, don't wait to get help. Don't wait to find someone that you can share your story with. And fight. Do whatever you can to get in to be seen by someone that can walk you through everything. Because it's not something that you have to battle alone. It doesn't have to be a shameful secret.   Elsie Iudicello Get in to see someone soon and also know that. You know, there are. That there are many facets to the body and that there are many different approaches to healing. And I think when I first was diagnosed with PTSD, I just assumed that that would mean a lifetime of hard-core medication. And that has not been my particular story. There have been a lot of I. And I want to be clear, I did go on medication. That was absolutely something that I thought I had to do at the time. But it was certainly not something that I had to engage with for the rest of my life. There were other. Alternatives that I was able to go after and incorporate. And then I would also say to just.   Elsie Iudicello To just be prepared to persevere. You know, I don't I don't think I quite realized that this would be something that I would carry for such a long amount of time. And I'm really thankful that I have people around me to support me, I know you asked a lot about initial relationships, but even now in my life I have. A lot of really wonderful support, and that's not something that I ever take for granted.   Elsie Iudicello And I know that there are a number of PTSD support groups out there for different people. So, if you are someone that is a little more isolated or just does not have a good community and reach out to one of those groups, it may feel awkward at first, but honestly, having. Someone just acknowledge what you're going through or to say I have those same symptoms or that happened to me as well. There, there is something, something is the right word, but I guess it just throws the light on everything and it makes it feel less dark and manly.   Liesel Mertes Do you have any words for someone who they would say someone that I love, or a friend or coworker is dealing with PTSD and I have no idea what to do?   Elsie Iudicello I think there's a lot to be said for picking your moment to be firm about something. I know that I had some well-meaning people in my life that wanted to push me in certain areas really, really, really quickly or that fought me on things that, looking back now, we're not really that important. And it just added a lot of mental strain and frustration.   Elsie Iudicello So, I know it's annoying sometimes to have someone that is all of a sudden afraid of so many things or that is struggling through something that feels very small. I still remember being afraid of shampoo. I was really afraid that there was a chemical in the shampoo that was going to trigger or something. I had a lot of irrational fears and I and I get that that was, you know, nonsensical to people that had an experience, what I experience. But, you know, that was maybe not something that needed to be the hill anyone needed to die on that day to try to figure out how to move forward. So, I think, you know, certainly there is a time, especially if someone is not wanting to get help or is. Maybe struggling with a lot of darker thoughts, even if you're just suspecting it and they haven't even said it out loud yet. You know, really choose your moment to be firm.   Elsie Iudicello Well, and just keep loving them. Keep loving them, because ultimately that's what we really, really need is to know that we're still loved even though we have been so radically changed.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections from my conversation with Elsie If you care for someone that is living with PTSD, choose carefully where you want to push them.There are concerns, fears, and reactions that will not make logical sense to you.  As Elsie shared, love, listening and support is oftentimes what is needed most In Elsie’s words, is your mouth full of advice or are you ready to listen?People who were quick to give answers were rarely comforting.  Instead, bring a meal or a book by a favorite author.  Play on the floor with children or just sit in silence.  Laugh with them about old jokes, all of this can be much more meaningful than giving advice.  Elsie talked about how important it was that Jeff did not discount her, even though she was living within a mental struggle.When you interact with someone living with PTSD, be careful not to quickly write them off, minimizing their concerns with your words or actions.  Remember, someone that is living with PTSD is still themselves, even if they are changed.  What does it look like for you to live within the tension of the person being the same but different?   As we close our time, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors.  FullStack PEO is a company that I love here in town; they are committed to providing employee benefits so you can focus on what matters most:  growing your business.  And Handle with Care HR Consulting, empowering forward-thinking companies to come alongside their people with empathy and compassion.  With engaging workshops and keynote sessions, Handle with Care helps you put empathy to work.   OUTRO

– Susan White I don't think people understand narcolepsy. They don't understand that. I'm sure any other invisible disability. It was hard for me to talk about because I know you're with all your colleagues your friends you're focused on work and you've got your adult daughter at home in the dark in a room that she's you know for three days maybe she only got up to go to the bathroom and eat more food. I mean it's just horrible.   INTRO   When I was in college, I was a rower on the crew team.  This meant that I would get up really, really early to be on the water by 4:45 AM.  Exhaustion would hit later in the day and I found it particularly hard to stay awake in afternoon Spanish class.  I would doze off regularly during conjugation exercises and my friends teased me, “Tenga narcolepsy?”.  It was an ongoing joke and, until this podcast episode, I had no idea how debilitating and devastating narcolepsy can be on an entire family.    Today’s episode of Handle with Care is sponsored by FullStack PEO.  FullStack supports small businesses and entrepreneurs, expertly taking care of your people and benefits so you can focus on what matters most, growing your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care HR Consulting.  From death to a diagnosis to a relationship transition, we equip you to support people when it matters most.    Susan White, today’s guest, is many things.  She is a life-time Indianapolis native who loves her corner of Broad Ripple. Susan is also a breast cancer survivor and the mother to a daughter with narcolepsy, which she says is much, much harder than battling cancer.  But before we get into her story, a little bit more about Susan.    She worked for many years in the field of HR.  Podcasting is a great love and hobby of hers.  She is the co-host of the Joy-Powered Podcast, where I had the pleasure of being a guest last year.    - Susan White People spend so much time at work and they put so much of themselves in it that if it is not a joyful environment it can actually really bring the bring the person to their knees. So the point of our podcast is how do you create joy in the workplace and then how do you sustain it.  So, our target audience in general are business leaders and H.R. professionals.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit about your family.   - Susan White Sure. I'm married to Bill. He teaches at IEP. He is an architect and he loves construction management which is what he teaches. We've been married for all right don't think really quick do the math. I think 37 years. Congratulations. Thank you. I have a daughter, Erin. She's 35 years old. She works here in the broader Broad Ripple area and we have a son Grady who is married to Amber and they live in Scottsdale Arizona and they have my grand dog.   And now, to some of the hard stuff:  when Susan was 49 years old, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.  She was working for a financial institution as the Chief HR officer, an exciting position.   - Susan White So I was in it for about six months when all of a sudden I went from my normal mammogram and even risk right after right after I'd had the mammogram done the technician came in and said I need for you to talk to someone because we see something on there that doesn't look right.   Susan was sent directly to the hospital for a biopsy.  It was a fast moving cancer.    - Susan White When I look back to those days I remember that I had I felt like I had inside my brain a neon light that was saying cancer, cancer just kept flashing.   - Susan White And in the meetings I found myself unable to concentrate which was not me. I was just so distracted with this flashing neon light in my head. You've got cancer you've got cancer. So it was it was it was a real disruptor and trying to process it all right.   - Liesel Mertes Well and then it sounds like the nature of the cancer was fast moving enough that they wanted to intervene quickly. How did that go with lining up medical leave? Did you find that your employer was receptive? What were some of the, the processes that played out for you?   - Susan White You know, it's interesting as soon as I found out I had breast cancer I started doing a lot of reading and I read something like I think the book was Chicken Soup for breast cancer survivors or forgive me if I thought the exact title anyway.   - Susan White It said in there that you will never feels so loved as when you have breast cancer in your whole life. And that's exactly how I felt I could not get over the outpouring of support and love almost every single person in this financial institution that I told they, they knew somebody themselves who had been affected by breast cancer and they were so supportive. My, even though I'd been in this business less than six months the CEO of the company is like oh you just go give him health is just you go give him hell we're right here for you.   - Susan White I mean it was just unbelievable amount of support.   Friends began to bring meals, out-of-town colleagues offered support and housing as Susan considered second opinions.  Her husband noted that their house began to smell like a florist shop because of the overflow of flowers.  And then there were the pjs and slippers and chocolate.   After treatment, she returned quickly to work, despite the exhaustion of long days.  Eleven months later, she was diagnosed with endometrial hyperplasia with atypia, a cancer that necessitated a hysterectomy.  She was already weak but heading back for an additional surgery.  And that is when Susan’s daughter, Erin, began to display worrying symptoms.      - Susan White But anyway, for us that was kind of building and then I realized what was going to have to happen I was gonna head back into a major surgery. All of a sudden, our daughter who had mentioned earlier she was experiencing some real problems. She was falling asleep a lot. She was not being able to get up. She was living independently she was working as a paralegal. She lived with a girlfriend in a apartment downtown and we thought she had launched for life right. Well, all of a sudden, she was like panicking a lot really high anxiety because she kept sleeping and could not wake up.   - Susan White She was being extremely forgetful. She kind of had a history of always being a little forgetful but I mean it was it to the extreme she was becoming kind of paralyzed she'd say like I could see she would be driving as she could see like a parking lot she needed to get to and she would be so exhausted she wasn't sure she could get there. She, whenever she got off of work, she would just go and lay down and she thought   - Susan White I'd still tell anybody now the best day of her life is when she got the diagnosis that was narcolepsy because she thought she was losing her mind.   Narcolepsy is still considered a rare disease.  For Erin, the onset was quick and devastating.  This autoimmune disorder can be triggered at any point in your life.  The onset often happens in late teens and early twenties.  Erin was just 24.  And the symptoms appear on a spectrum.  Some people are functional with medication and there are others that really don’t get out of bed again.    - Susan White It is so chronic and so awful.   - Susan White Erin is on that spectrum. But she at least initially without drugs is really, really bad.   - Liesel Mertes Well and what is that like? So you're in the midst of your own health like cesium which is pretty complicated. What was it like for you as a mother to be absorbing this news from midtown Broad Ripple about what's going on with your daughter?   - Susan White It was, it's devastating. I often have said that I wish that God had given me the narcolepsy and that Erin I know how to organize myself through things. I'm a really good cope-er. And I just hated it. I'm not good at coping watching somebody I love suffer and she really, really suffered. She lost her job very quickly because she could not stay awake just kept she was to fall asleep standing up she fall asleep there. They moved her to her less intense role from paralegal to like the front desk receptionist.   - Susan White She couldn't stay awake there. I kind of get why you can't have a in a law firm. The receptionist asleep but unfortunately for her she lost her you know was not able to stay in an apartment. She had no money coming no money coming in so she moved home with us. And so, I was recovering I actually started back to work before she moved back in with us but it was a long journey of her living with us for about five years.   - Liesel Mertes And what are the emotions that she's having to make these transitions like are there or are there moments that are that really stand out in your mind as her mother of just how you felt walking with her on that journey?   - Susan White Erin we would say things that would just crush me about what she was experiencing and I I could feel it for she.   - Susan White This was not the life she'd intended right. She had a life that was not living in her old bedroom in the dark. You know, it's trying to get capture enough sleep. She'd say to me, Mom that is where I go for my dreams to die. I was just so sad. And I think that she had a really she went through several years of understanding the life she knew it was gone and her new life was going to be on her best day and a best day with all the meds that are very powerful harmful types of drugs. But to get her to about 80 percent of what you and I have. So, I think that for me watching all of that was just the most disruptive thing in my life.   - Susan White You know I'll take, I'll take cancer tomorrow. I will. I'll take you know if any more work gets to get rid of female workers I'd give them up. I would do anything I could not to watch her go through that.   It was a challenge for Susan and her husband to know how to support Erin well.   - Susan White Yeah. I tell you it was really hard those first few years especially when Erin was living with us because we were almost empty nesters our son was finishing up college and so we had a lot of time to ourselves and then to have somebody in the house who's not well was really tough. And my husband often said you know he was trying to figure out where you know how much of this was the illness how much of it was Erin like. Is it laziness that she's not doing these things or is it she's incapable of doing these things.   - Susan White So that was a really tough time through that because I am, I tend to believe everything is the illness. And Bill believes that there's always a personal accountability so we can. I think we're in a good place now figuring all that out. And she lives independently which is superb but we're very involved in zero a lot which is I think really good. But it was I think there was a there's a road to walk there and you're never going to have both on anything in life. I think see things exactly the same way.   - Susan White But in times of trouble and times of angst it can really test your mettle.   - Liesel Mertes I imagine that to care for your daughter was asking a lot of you. How did you find that that intersected with your world of work and the time and space you needed?   - Susan White I don't think I did it very well. I know I did do it very well. We big at work all the love and support you get when you're sick. It's not what you feel when you've got an adult child who has something horrible happen to them. I think if it's all invisible. Right.   - Susan White If Erin had been in a terrible accident or if something physically had that people could see and understand. I think it would be different. I don't think people understand narcolepsy. They don't understand that.   - Susan White I'm sure any other invisible disability. It was hard for me to talk about because I know you're with all your colleagues your friends you're focused on work and you've got your adult daughter at home in the dark in a room that she's you know for three days maybe she only got up to go to the bathroom and eat more food. I mean it's just horrible. I used, I for the first couple of years I know I walked around with a big lump in my stomach that I couldn't figure out you know how to lessen it a little bit of time I did have outside of work I would try to research like what's going on at this what is this about.   - Susan White We found that narcolepsy network which is a wonderful national organization that help people and caregivers of people with narcolepsy. They have national conferences. We started going to national conferences. It was so helpful because it helped us learn what was happening what causes this disease which is they still don't know but they have different ideas of what might what you can do with it. How do you manage to live around it is incurable. They're working very hard to find a cure but may not be in our lifetime. So, it was also good for me to meet other parents of people who had narcolepsy and for Erin to meet other people who have narcolepsy because it's hard to find people who have it.   - Susan White That was very helpful. But around the world of work it was tough because people didn't know I mean I'd share it but I don't share it widely because it's a hard thing to bring up. I just I had kind of a kind of a dark cloud over my head for a number of years.   - Liesel Mertes Did you feel like that had an effect on your presence with your colleagues or within your projects?   - Susan White  You know there's that aspect of a cloud hovering.   - Liesel Mertes How do you feel like it came out in your interactions in a particular way?   - Susan White I know that I felt like I realized that the medicines you have to take are extremely expensive. Of course, Erin wasn't working and she's 24 and she. Back then it was we didn't have the Affordable Health Care which you could stay on your parents insurance to age 26. So we didn't have that option. And so we were paying for medical insurance for Erin and we were paying out of pocket incredible amounts of money for drugs. We were paying thousands upon thousands of dollars. One time that sounds horrible. What time it was to Costco to fill out order one of one of her prescriptions and it was $1125 and I wasn't expecting $1125 at that moment I just remember crying there I was across Costco and I had to figure out at that moment to get $1125 for one of her prescriptions for one. So anyway, it was just it was I felt as though with work I needed to work even harder because I didn't know if Erin would ever be able to work. I didn't know if Erin would ever have insurance again other than what we could provide. So yeah, it rocked my world. It certainly did not let me keep my eye off the ball because the ball working was extreme more important than it ever had been you needed to me.   Susan is a self-described optimist…and even in these trying times, she channeled her energy into helping others within her organization.  She joined a working group as the global co-chair, devoting herself to making space for people with disabilities.   - Susan White But we grew by thousands and thousands of employees in Australia and India and the Philippines and we'd already had a chapter in England and several in the United States. But it was so great. And I got a chance to talk to people who were caregivers and people disabilities who said I never felt comfortable talking at work about my disability until access ability started becoming really popular and it was OK so I got a lot from that.   - Susan White It was something I could do in the world of work to try to speak to the pain I was having in my personal life.   However, after 35 years, Susan got news that her job was moving to Chicago.  Unwilling to leave Erin, Susan left her job instead.    - Susan White But so, my job was eliminated and it really, I often say was the best thing in my life. That disruptor was great because I needed to be pushed out of that nest. But it gave me time to focus on Erin and to really figure out what type of insurance was the best one for her as opposed to what we would just get thrown. It helped me really help Erin get back on her feet and I think it also helped Erin when she realized that I was losing my job and has expensive as medicines doctors insurance was she realized that she needed to do to figure out how to work around this disease.   Erin went to a vocational rehab program and got a job working with Goodwill, part-time.   - Susan White So the last five and a half years, Erin has been working the value that she gets in her life being able to work just brings me joy every day. I try to remember to start every prayer with thank you Lord for Erin being backups upright in the world and getting a chance to work.   - Liesel Mertes What do you think, it's a two part question:  first part, what is the greatest misunderstanding or thing that you wish people could know about narcolepsy in particular?   - Susan White You know narcolepsy has been written up about it kind of in a joking way and in movies it's kind of funny. I got to tell you it's the least funny disease I've ever heard of.   - Susan White It's so sad. So I think that's it. That's probably the number one thing to be aware of with it. And I guess second of all is that it is not only is it physical and that although it's that appears to be invisible because people can't see you've got it is that it also kind of it, it messes with your cognitive abilities when you don't get enough sleep. Now people realize this you don't get to that level of rest that you need you're not restored and your brain is functioning right. So, a lot of people's narcolepsy will tend to be very forgetful.   - Susan White It's hard to concentrate. There's a lot of things that go to person with narcolepsy they have a hard time maintaining friendships or relationships because they're in bed most the time they can't make a commitment that they're sure they're going to be at sometimes until the day of the hour before. So that's a tough thing. So, if you happened unfortunately to have narcolepsy enter your lives please be patient with those individuals. They've got an awful lot they are trying to plow through every day.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. And in a more global sense as a working parent who had a child who was going through something pretty intense and it's not just episodic, this is an ongoing sort of thing. What do you think the average workplace is, what would have been better support for you or what do you think was a misunderstanding that your workplace had and how you were doing or what you needed in the midst of that?   - Susan White Yeah. You know, I never know blamed anybody. I own what I shared with people didn't share with people. I think that people don't appreciate when you are an adult but when you're the parent of an adult that you're a parent forever. First of all. And just because your kid isn't needed to get a softball practice or have homework to do that night you know you still feel extremely responsible especially when it's an adult that you know is not well.   - Susan White I think that would be really helpful is if a colleague shared with you that they have an adult child maybe who's got any type of a bad thing in their life.   - Susan White Maybe they're addicted to addicted to drugs. Maybe they have a mental illness. Any of those types of things. If someone to share that with you that it's good maybe just periodically check in with them. Ask how here he's doing. You know ask if there's anything new with Joe. Just let them know. Kind of validating so that the person who's carrying that load doesn't feel like they're just carrying it alone in the dark.   - Liesel Mertes It's just not very popular to, to have probably, that I'm struck as you say that there could be a thought of oh how can I remember all this. But we, we remember when we interact around things that we feel are important or they catch our interest. I could note your favorite sports team is and want to razz you about it every week for you 16 weeks of football season. It's there's a gap, that actually we either don't feel comfortable in knowing how to talk about it or we're not giving it that level of mental importance to think, I'm gonna remember this about Susan and I'm gonna ask her about it because it matters to her and that it's exercising a different element of intention and discipline because I can remember things about a co-worker you know it's just we remember what was.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah right. Which interest us and it's switching gears to, this is important. I'm going to I'm going to remember and I'm going to check in around it.   - Susan White I think if it's an uncomfortable topic people really like to avoid it and I get that, but I and I would say to you that sometimes people who do care about me and care about here and we'll say how's Erin. And I'll say you know good days or bad days doesn't mean I necessarily need to share but it's so validating that somebody even asks that they recognize how much a part of your world it is.   - Liesel Mertes Exactly. So asking and checking in is meaningful. Are there other things that you think you know even and like me, I would have I would have appreciated this that come to mind?   - Susan White Mm hmm. You know, I have some very dear friends who really make an effort at reaching out to Erin on her birthday or just doing really kind things for her she's loves to do art and like you know buying her art or her little note cards or they just do things that are so validating for Erin and they know her world is so small. It's sleeping or working and it's just so appreciate. I so appreciate the fact when anyone very close to me makes a point to kind of brighten her life to care for your daughter.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Susan White I think if I could do it all over, I think I would take a leave of absence and really take a breath and instead of waiting till I'd lost my job to do a lot of the research to figure out what what's the right type of insurance and medicines and she would issue what the right neurologist is so and so forth I think I would have I wish I had no regrets except for the fact that if I to do it all over again I take the time to make sure we were on the right path as opposed to just reacting and learning on the fly in the moments that I could hear that.   - Liesel Mertes Susan, is there anything else that you feel like is meaningful in your story or helpful to someone who is perhaps walking with someone whether it's narcolepsy or a different disease that you did not get to say you'd like to? Mm hmm.   - Susan White You know I, I do believe that we all have to have hope and positivity. And it's sometimes like in your darkest days where you can't see it. You just kind of have to remind yourself you know what a gift that person is in your life like Erin is such a gift in her life. And you know you, you do the best you can in each moment. So, I just, don't be too hard on yourself. It's really important that as a caregiver you take care of yourself.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways after my conversation with Susan It can be very isolating to have a sick adult child.Susan talked about how isolated she felt, how co-workers did not know how to reach out.  Susan reminded us of the importance of checking-in.  If you know that a co-worker has something hard going on in their personal life, it can be immensely meaningful to periodically ask how they are doing.  If you are prone to forgetting, and many of us are, take time to write it down in a file do that you can remember to follow-up.  Your intention and care will help to remind them that they are not forgotten. If you have just absorbed hard news, it could be helpful to take a leave of absence.Susan reflected that stepping away earlier would have allowed her the space to breathe and get things like insurance in order.  Does your company offer this kind of support and space to employees during times of disruption?  If someone on your staff is experiencing a rare disease, or supporting a loved one that is suffering, the expense and the process of information gathering can be immense.Susan spoke about her Costco breakdown and the many hours she spent researching and participating in support groups.  Your friend or co-worker is likely navigating complex support systems and financial concerns in the midst of work and other life commitments.  Be patient with them.   A special thanks to our sponsors.  Are you an entrepreneur or small business owner?  Does the thought of navigating health insurance and benefits make you a little queasy?  If so, FullStack PEO is there to help, providing benefits for your people so you can get back to work.    Do you want to attract and retain the best talent by being an employer of choice?  If so, Handle with Care HR Consulting has services to help you provide support when it matters most.  Through targeted, interactive sessions, we empower you to respond with empathy and compassion during disruptive life events.    Thanks for joining us for this first episode of the new decade on the Handle with Care podcast.   OUTRO Link to the Narcolepsy Network: https://narcolepsynetwork.org/  

And at the end of the day it felt like these are the people I spent 50 hours a week with. I was in the office seven something every morning always wanting to do my best for the people I worked with. And at the end of the day I left and only heard from one person ever again. And these were my friends for years. The people I spent the majority of my life with   INTRO   Today’s episode is sponsored by FullStack PEO.  You are a small company, an entrepreneur that has just hired your first staff and you have big plans for 2020.  Let FullStack take care of your benefits so you can take care of growing your company.   On Handle with Care, in some interviews, we get to hear about companies that care well:  the manager that comes with a hug and encouragement, the employees that struggle but come out better on the other side.  This is not one of those stories.    My guest is Jennifer Merrell. Jennifer is a hard driving achiever who gets sick.  Her illness is prolonged, mysterious.  She gets sicker and sicker.  There are misunderstandings and deeply painful misses before the sad collapse.   But before we get into that story, a little more about Jennifer.  Jennifer loves to climb and to hike, particularly down in Clifty Falls, where she would travel each year with her boys.     Jennifer Merrell Outside of work I spend a lot of time I try to work out so I'm also a certified pilates instructor so I try to substitute teach pilates where I can.   Life is busy, helping to chauffer her 16 year old between track and orchestra   Jennifer Merrell Yes. I feel like I drive for work every day whether I'm on the road going to one of our members locations or I'm driving downtown to our main office and then I come home and I drive some more.   When she is not driving, Jennifer works at Techpoint.    Jennifer Merrell Techpoint’s role is to accelerate the growth of technology as an industry sector in the state of Indiana. I manage our university members and about 17 corporate mid-sized tech and tech enabled companies. And our role is basically to connect them to one another to do business or to collaborate to share best practices to connect   – Liesel Mertes So what we wanted to discuss today was within that professional journey whether at Tech point or previous to it you had some disruptions with your health that led to some major detours and kind of unexpected twists and turns in the path. Tell me a little bit about some of the disruptions that your health had and how it affected your professional development.   - Jennifer Merrell Sure. I've had it in reality probably three major health disruptions. One in my thirties read horrible stomach pains and all kinds of problems with that for several years.   Those pains continued and found a culmination in a dramatic, life-threatening encounter with a crab lobster roll in Omaha.  Jennifer went into anaphylactic shock on the street and was later diagnosed with a profound gluten allergy.  Jennifer then went on to have female bleeding problems, which led to a tremendous loss of blood.    Her life and work are affected for a couple of years.  Jennifer can’t go to the gym or sit through long meetings without having an embarrassing problem.  It is uncomfortable to talk about to male coworkers and managers and is emotionally and physically stressful.  Finally, she has a hysterectomy   - Jennifer Merrell Now I'm in a leadership position and fast forward three four years and things are going pretty swimmingly along.   - Jennifer Merrell But I started you know if we look backwards I probably was very sick for many many many years and maybe these things contributed maybe they didn't. The doctor says they don't but I'm like I don't know. There's a lot of things in there. And if you talk to my therapist she'll tell me that's all stress related.   At the close of 2017, she starts to feel suddenly weak, out of breath.  She loses weight all at once and her hair starts to fall out.  Dark circles appear under her eyes.   - Jennifer Merrell I had hit my leg with my car door in the parking lot at Kroger actually and made like a little slice and it just had not gotten better it was still real dark. It wasn't a scab anymore. It is real dark and weird.   My knuckles were really dark to the point that one of my friends said What is wrong with your hand. And it's like I don't know maybe it's always been that way. So this strange thing with strange things happening.   -  Liesel Mertes Give us a little bit of a context. You mentioned stress as a contributing factor. What did your pace of life look like?   -  Jennifer Merrell Hard and fast hard and fast. So I probably I was in a relationship that wasn't probably very healthy for me but probably not necessarily recognizing that at the time I was working a lot because I really wanted to perform I was a high achiever in and in our culture we tend to equate high achieving with working a lot right.   - Jennifer Merrell Are you busy. Yeah. Are you busy. I'm busy and busy and busy and we tend to reward or think there's importance attached to being very very busy. I wanted to achieve.   - Jennifer Merrell I wanted to make more money I wanted to have more title I was running two kids around still and I was trying to be supermom. I wanted to be at all their events I wanted to volunteer I was a teen mom for the soccer team and doing travel soccer and my other son was in Boy Scouts and I wanted to go on a few camp out every year and help volunteer at all the meetings and trying to put it all in. So I would say like on a Tuesday I would go to work.   - Jennifer Merrell I would pick up my younger son. Actually this is this is the sad part. I would go to work and I had a high school girl I paid to take my younger son to soccer. I would go to the soccer field and I would watch practice. I would pick him up I would pick up a sandwich on the way and have him eat and change his clothes into his boys got uniform pick up my older son take them both the Boy Scouts I would go run two or three miles while they were at Boy Scouts then come back pick him up now it's nine 15 nine thirty go home help them with homework clean up the house catch up on any work go to bed.   Her fingers and toes are turning blue and, at this point, she is down to 100 pounds.  She goes to the doctor, who thinks that this could be manifestations of depression after her break-up.   – Jennifer Merrell I said well I'm sad about that breakup and I said I know I'll get over that and I'm not depressed because I know these are all symptoms of depression.  So she put me on antidepressants and the first one made me want to kill myself literally I called her I said I want to kill myself every day this is not OK.   The mystery continues; Jennifer cycles through three different anti-depressants and is going to physical therapy for the strange spasms in her legs.    - Jennifer Merrell So I am now missing a tremendous amount of work I'm at a doctor's office every two weeks I'm in physical therapy twice a week and I'm seeing a mental therapist every two weeks.   – Liesel Mertes And how did that communication go with your workplace? What were you sure. Were you saying I'm depressed. I just needed to. How much are you letting them in or not?   - Jennifer Merrell Not a whole lot. They definitely knew something was going on and I was definitely articulating that. I'm tired I'm weak. And by now I'm shutting off my light at lunch time and I'm taking a nap on the sofa in my office. Because everybody's lunch because I'm exact I cannot stay awake.   - Jennifer Merrell I can't focus so my work product is definitely suffering but I'm trying so hard. I mean it was it was so mentally anguishing how how hard I was trying to do well you know trying to still succeed in the box by which we define success in the box by which people were used to me achieving.   - Liesel Mertes So yeah. How did it feel to be tried so hard but to still feel like you were not producing the way.   - Jennifer Merrell It was horrible. That made me cry.   - Jennifer Merrell It was horrible it felt like I was failing at life where I had always succeeded at life. I was used to being the star performer right and I was failing and I was doing everything I could not to the pressure was mounting. I was too tired to attend my son's track meets.   It was really it was really horrible. I really and I really did feel like I was dying but I'm gonna beat this right because I I when I beat things I overcome them whatever the problem is I solve it but yet I'm seeing all of these medical care providers and no solution is coming.   Jennifer had planned to take her boys to Paris for spring break.  It was a trip she had promised to her now-senior-in-high-school son when he was in 8 grade.  She had saved and planned and, despite her deteriorating health, she felt like she could not miss the trip.    She pukes all the way up to Chicago, trying to multitask on the road.  She is tired over those first days, but soldiering on.    – Jennifer Merrell We start walking down the Champ de Elysees and I go wow I don't feel very good. And we sit down on a bench and I vomit literally all over my shoes which began a very very rapid decline. So after that I struggled for us to get to the train. My kids were sort of holding me up. What do I do now? I'm in France and I've got two kids with me and I've got to survive.   She ends the trip in a wheelchair and, when Jennifer arrives Stateside, she has set up an appointment with a new doctor.    – Jennifer Merrell Two days later I was in Dr. Tara Land’s office with community health systems and she looked at me and she goes, “What's going on?”.   - Jennifer Merrell And I said I am dying something inside me is killing me. And she looked at me and the first thing she said is I believe you. And she started looking along over she was I believe you and I need you to go to the emergency room right now.   Maybe it was a stomach bug?  She gets treated and goes home after some days in the hospital.  Jennifer goes back to work and returns for more blood work.    – Jennifer Merrell She the nurse called me. You're gonna love this. She says we need to go the emergency room right now and we're looking your blood work and I said I don't have time I've missed too much work. It was evident to me that there was a general unhappiness for quite a while in my office with maybe my work product but probably my lack of being there and how sick I was.   But she deos go back to the hospital.  Her blood pressure is troublesome and her heart is struggling.  There are biopsies and chest x-rays.    - Jennifer Merrell They ran tests all night. The next morning I really thought when I went to bed that night I was not getting up. I said goodbye to my kids. I had seen my mother. I had not seen my dad but I was so out of it my brain was completely gone but the next morning they gave me the shot and it was like a computer turned on.   The shot that Jennifer got was of cortisol.  Because the doctor’s had diagnosed her with Addison’s Disease.   [00:47:48.130] Most people have heard of it just because JFK had it that was it revealed after his death. But it's a very rare disease where basically your brain sends way too many wrong signals to your adrenal glands   Addison’s Disease is an immune reaction that can be triggered.    – Jennifer Merrell And what it does is it destroys your adrenal gland the outside of your adrenal glad which makes the cortisol. Some people damages it. Mine was so far it's destroyed so don't make any cortisol on my own at all. And people you know they see commercials cortisol makes you fat. No no cortisol controls your blood pressure regulates your kidneys regulate your metabolism allows you to balance your salt and your water in your body. So I can't maintain any of that on my own or I will die. And it's called in Addison’s crisis and it can be triggered by stress mentally physically emotionally.   - Liesel Mertes And what is the treatment. You mentioned getting an injection.   - Jennifer Merrell So they injected me with cortisol straight up cortisol. So now the good part is to maintain this to stay alive is pretty easy and cheap.   - Liesel Mertes Did you see, immediately start to feel improvement?   - Jennifer Merrell It took a while. And actually the doctor and this is this is the next interesting part she said you need to take four or five months off of life.   - Jennifer Merrell And accordingly she goes no working no working out. She goes I want you to lay around and we should be lazy because what your body has been through probably for years you know it's basically everything was failing in my body. I mean it was a full body failure inside outside everything. So I felt very, very weak for quite a while. It was almost like learning to walk again. I had to just walk to the mailbox first then I walk down the street. It took a long time. This is all weird things that still happen.   - Jennifer Merrell So it's been a year and a half. But she said take four or five months off. Right. So the next thing I did was go to work because you know that's what you do.   - Liesel Mertes Why did you go to work?   - Jennifer Merrell Because I felt like I would lose my job if I didn't. So that leads to your single mom. You have had all of this unexplained stuff. You've taken a trip you've needed to take time off. What was the implicit workplace norms or culture that you felt you needed to live into. You can't miss work. You just can't. You but has to be in that seat.   - Liesel Mertes How was that said to you explicitly or, or how did you come to internalize that we can't have you out of the office this much another person in leadership actually.   -  Jennifer Merrell Guys what was it that person said to me because it was really stuck with me for a long time. I can't believe I'm going blank right now. It was said.   - Jennifer Merrell Oh I actually had somebody tell me to get my shit together, like verbatim. You need to get your shit together. We also had somebody say I also had somebody come to me and say you know we all have things that happen to us in life. I have a thyroid problem. So you just need to get over it. And it was like not at all the same situation.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah in real time so like you're hearing this how, how do you feel and what you saying that I'm hearing this a few days out of the hospital?   - Jennifer Merrell So I actually I went back to work like he did. I was allowed to work some of the time in the office some time at the office and I did that for about three weeks and then I really felt like this is this is it's clearly becoming a problem. There were people that were actually being sort of angry to me. I was also told that they're trying to build a business here we don't have time for this. Yeah we're trying to run a business. We don't have time for this.   - Liesel Mertes And what did people's anger, how were you perceiving that? Was it spoken?   – Jennifer Merrell Yeah it was spoken. It was spoken. Yeah. Well first of all not being able to produce any cortisol for likely several months leaves you only producing adrenaline which is what creates fight or flight. So the only physiological reaction my body allowed was fight or flight. So there legitimately I probably was being reactionary. I probably was being defensive at times. So there is a fault of mine in there. Now I do have a legitimate reason. I actually did not have the hormones that allow you to handle things appropriately at all.   - Jennifer Merrell It was a burden to the rest of the company for me to be out. That was what was said. It's a burden to the rest of the company for you to be out   - Liesel Mertes Did you feel like there was a foundation of organizational trust that you could call back on or even prior to this what sort of an environment that felt safe or unsafe was present.   - Jennifer Merrell Well that particular culture was definitely not one of trust. And then then there was there was an ongoing joke within the organization for several years after I started several years that well I'm going on vacation this week. Every time I go on vacation they fire the person in that seat prior to me. Nobody had really been in that seat more than a couple years. So there was always sort of this feeling that it was temporary in the eyes of upper management.   – Liesel Mertes Anyways when I hear there's that organizationally there was a particular culture that was in existence that corruption and disruptive life event did come. It did not make you feel like you were operating from a place of safety or support in general in general in general.   -  Jennifer Merrell And then as I got sicker and lost the ability to be anything but fearful I think that that initial experience coming in and that cultural that awareness of that cultural peace in there I think was amplified. Mm hmm. And yes. Yeah. So I do not I have. And reality was I had already missed a lot of work and I was not performing at my best. How how how does an employer accommodate that in a small business? I'm sure it was a burden. I don't have the right answer.   - Liesel Mertes So you mentioned anecdotally but just in a mental level what are some of the biggest ways that you feel like you were missed in your work environment or in your support community as a whole. There you go. This was just really painful.   - Jennifer Merrell I was extremely loyal extremely loyal and that sort of thought process for me now is gone. I will probably not quite feel that way again about an employer because of that experience because I felt like at the end of the road even though they did make some accommodations for me for sure I felt like at the end of the day somebody who has worked that hard and been that loyal I just felt like some of the things said to me about you know getting your act together and you know you being gone is a burden to this company. Things like that are very hurtful to somebody who's really giving it their heart and who already feels like out of control.   - Liesel Mertes So were there things that other your workplace or people in your community did that were really helpful and beneficial that you were like this was a this stands out as something that was really meaningful and there was silence.   - Jennifer Merrell You know I think I think the biggest helpful now you know I actually there's a lot of things like I think about like you know we would have a client have a baby or be sick and we would send them card and everybody would sign it. And I was there literally on my deathbed. No I heard from them as have they figured it out yet. When do you think you way back. Nobody sent a card…   -  Liesel Mertes That sounds disappointing.   - Jennifer Merrell This sounds you know I had some friends by myself. It's really sad. Well I think what it was was an epiphany. That you are an employee if you're in a company that thinks of you as more than that. That's awesome. Congratulations. I think that's gonna be a rarity because at the end of the day you were there to produce something for them and when you can no longer produce it they will question your value and as an employee that feels like they're questioning your worth as a person. Now maybe I lost my worth as an employee. That's you know I get that you know they're they're trying to work. Dollars and cents.   This is a business. I get it. But to actually be told I've got a business to run. Don't have time for this. Is very heartbreaking when you think you know what. I've got a family to run. I've got kids to feed. I don't have time to be sick. And that's kind of how I treated that illness is I have time to be sick. My family doesn't have time. My employer sure as heck doesn't have time now. Could they have done better. Yeah. Could I have done it better. Yeah. An earlier diagnosis the right doctor. A million puzzle pieces that have to fall into the right order.   – Liesel Mertes I hear you the pain of that and and the shadow that that experience can create. As to how you want to engage or not engage in our actions towards each other have powerful effects especially in this moment of crisis.   – Jennifer Merrell Yeah I felt like the people I worked with were my friends. And at the end of the day it felt like these are the people I spent 50 hours a week with. I was in the office seven something every morning always wanting to do my best for the people I worked with. And at the end of the day I left and only heard from one person ever again. And these were my friends for years. The people I spent the majority of my life with more than my family more than my personal friends.   I spent them with my work peers. And at the end of the day and maybe it's because they didn't understand what was happening with me. They didn't know how to handle it. But felt like you weren't cared about as a person. You have now lost your worth. And especially when you are that tied to your job and care that much about and do a good job and care that much about the success of the company when you are no longer able to do it at the the way they expect to ahead or was used to even if it's gonna be temporary. To find out that that's all that mattered to them. Think really was disheartening because to be honest with you I've worked several places and that's the only place that I left and felt like I was rejected by a group of friends when you felt like you were trying so hard to do everything you could. I was trying to do everything well even though I knew I wasn't. And I was trying to get better at the same time. Ultimately I needed to take that time off but I truly felt my job was in jeopardy.   I think that here's, here's the answer. I think that if that employer would have been able to say to me I know you have to take this time off and I'm going to make you take this time off and we're gonna figure out some way that you can still pay your mortgage and feed your children during this time. I hear that and I feel like if my employer maybe maybe would have sat down and said let's brainstorm some options. I don't want you to be afraid to throw anything out there you know I know you're coming from a place of fear right now. I know you're scared but I also know you've been here a really long time you've done a great job and I know you can't do that right now.   – Jennifer Merrell The reality is when a life crisis comes along that your employer is unfamiliar with whether it's a rare disease or just something they've just not had any experience with. It's scary for them to I had that empathy but your employer has to realize it's terrifying for the employee   -  Liesel Mertes And they're in a position of they're in a position of power. It's an imbalance of power.   -  Jennifer Merrell It's an imbalance of power and that just drives fear.   - Liesel Mertes It does to you have you in fact. Yeah. Those were lots of words of insight you have any additional words of insight that you would say to a younger version of yourself or that you would say to someone who is maybe going through something similar Wow.   - Jennifer Merrell I think. To be honest with you I'd say cover your own ass. They'd be my experience as an employee as you figure out how to cover your own ass because I didn't and I didn't because I felt like I wanted to be completely honest and upfront about everything but who I wasn't honest and upfront with was myself I wasn't honest about how sick I was to myself and I wasn't honest about needing to take that time off in order to get better to myself. You that's that, that would be my advice then to an employee.   -  Liesel Mertes Is there anything else that you did not get a chance to say that you would like to add?   - Jennifer Merrell Well I mean I don't I don't want to say anything bad about a previous employer at all because there's so much more good than bad. So many more good things than bad. As I stated there's issues on my side and the other side and I don't think that that's unique to any one company. I think that this happens many, many places and I think it's really a couple things. I think it's lack of knowledge lack of trust lack of communication and lack of empathy. I think that employers they have got to produce and make money and revenue to pay bills. This is this is a fact right. These, these wheels all have to turn and every employee has a wheel they're turning.   - Jennifer Merrell And when one is down it messes up the system. That's a reality. But somewhere in there there has to be a space for empathy because we are not just worker robots numbers on a page. Line items on your balance sheet. These are people and at the end of the day we all die and that money is gone. The company may come and go. Products come and go services come and go.   - Jennifer Merrell At the end of the day when people are stealing you're talking about you. Do you want them to talk about how much money you made? How much impact you made to the economy? How big your house was or do you want to talk about how much you cared about the people around you?   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three takeaways that emerge from Jennifer’s story. Is the right answer, in Jennifer’s words, “to cover your ass” as an employee?I hope not.  Yet, her response makes sense, based on her experiences within a company culture.  Which comes to my first take-away.  Your culture matters!  What kind of a culture have you created?  Culture has to be purposefully shaped during times of stability so you have something to offer in times of disruption.  If not, your employees will be exist in a sort defensive crouch, perpetually covering their collective asses because they don’t believe you have their back.  And your business will never ultimately thrive when your employees don’t believe you have their best interests in mind.  FMLA can be hard.It is difficult for an employee to have the resources to take six months off of work while still paying expenses.  Some companies have a philanthropic outreach that exists for these situations.  What sort of resources, if any, do you have in place to help employees as they face the prospect of being off of work for an extended amount of time? Disruptive life events are messy.As Jennifer acknowledged, there were mistakes the company made, there were mistakes that she made.  Both the company and Jennifer were facing tremendous uncertainty as a result of her illness.  But, the company exists as the more powerful partner.  And this means that they way the choose to treat someone, regardless of outcome, has an outsized influence.  Whether you decide to keep someone or let them go, do you make sure that they are being treated with respect and care?    I close with a thanks to our sponsor, FullStack PEO, where they care about people and are proficient with benefits and to Handle with Care Consulting, where we train your managers to give support when it matters most.   OUTRO  

Is it, really, the most wonderful time of the year?  With all the holiday greetings and everybody, telling you to be of good cheer?  Maybe not.  Maybe its not the most wonderful time of the year.  And that is why today is a special holiday edition of the Handle with Care podcast.   INTRO   Cookies bake.  Fires crackle.  Familiar Christmas favorites play over the radio.  There is holly and family gatherings and everything can seem to take on a glow of glad tidings.    And yet, this time of year can be a challenge, especially for those that have lived through a disruptive life event in 2019.    As I begin today’s podcast, it is with a special thanks to our sponsor, FullStack PEO.  There are so many demands on a small business.  That is why the men and women at FullStack manage your employee benefits so you can get back to business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting. Through interactive, impactful sessions, Handle with Care empowers you to give support when it matters most.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   Today is a special holiday edition of the Handle with Care podcast, in honor of the most wonderful time of the year.  The focus of the podcast is empathy, showing others that we care, that we recognize their pain and make space for it.  And so, I want to take a few moments to give a glimpse as to why this time of year could be particularly hard for people you care about and how you can be a supportive, caring, coworker or friend when they need it most.    For some, the close of the year is a reminder of the person that is no longer present at the table, the relationship (once warm) that is now cold and estranged.  Or of the dream that simply did not come to be.  On top of that, time with family can be strained and uncomfortable even in the most stable of circumstances, the shared table becoming a place of dread.    In the course of my work, I come across a lot of hard stories.  Let me set the stage with a few of them:   Michelle found out she was pregnant this spring.  This is her first child and she was so excited, planning for her December baby. She and her husband had picked out names and started to move out furniture for the nursery when she miscarried. The snow and the lights are a reminder of the baby that she was supposed to hold this Christmas.  The party dresses and events remind her of the maternity dress she thought she’d be wearing.  She feels tired all the time.  Tired and sad.  Angie is getting ready to celebrate her first Christmas after the divorce became final. She gets the kids on Christmas Eve but they will be with her ex’s family on Christmas Day. Angie dreads waking up to a quiet apartment on Christmas morning.  She still feels angry about how the whole divorce went down.  And the questions from her kids only make it worse.    Mark’s dad is in hospice this month. He’s been there for nearly a year, Parkinson’s can be a relentless disease. But now, they think that he’s near the end.  Mark never really had a strong relationship, but now he wonders if he should be visiting more.  The end of the year is crazy at work and he doesn’t want to take time off, but what if this really is the end.    These are just a few of the stories of people who don’t feel all that jolly this year.  The holidays can be hard.   Everyone is supposed to be happy.  Hallmark movies and parties and the marketers want to show that everything is OK.  But, for those who have lost someone, their entire interior universe has been rearranged.  Familiar rituals might be painful.      Tremendous pressure, everyone from the television to the guy with a bell outside of Kroger to your Starbucks cup is wishing you glad tidings and you wonder if you will ever be alright again.    In my own story, the first major holiday that followed Mercy’s death was Easter, a time of celebrating new life and renewed hope.  The trappings of the holiday could not have felt further from my reality.  I remember the dread of the holiday, we were alone, living in Bloomington, and Easter could not have seemed further from the truth of my existence.  We used a left-over gift certificate to pick up food from MCL Cafeteria.  That was our holiday meal, unpacked from plastic containers. I just wanted the holiday to go away.    And grief, it can hijack you at the most unexpected moments.  A familiar smell, a song, you can be going about your business, feeling fine when out of left field, you are powerfully sad all over again.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   There are a range of good resources on the Internet if you are someone in grief encountering the holidays, but there isn’t as much for those of us who are supporting our friends and coworkers that are grieving.  So here are three tips for the holidays   It is not your job to fix someone or control their situation. This is a particularly American temptation: we want everyone to be happy and we are profoundly uncomfortable with grief.  This can be further complicated in the workplace, where managers and coworkers want to get someone “back up to speed”.  Yet, the word “bereaved”, sometimes applied to mourners, means to be torn apart. Mending takes time. Rushing someone through their grief or causing them to stuff their feelings will only backfire in the end.  Alan Wolfelt uses the term “companioning the bereaved”. Being with someone in their sadness and resisting the urge to fix them.  What this looks like in a practical sense:  allow people to skip the holiday party or the gift exchange. Let them know that their presence would be welcome but you understand if they can’t come.  This could sound something like this:  “The Office Christmas party is next Friday.  I’d love for you to come; you are an important member of our team.  But, I realize that this could be a hard time of year for you.  If you don’t feel like coming, you don’t need to come.  Feel free to make the decision that feels best for you.  Take time to acknowledge their loss. This might mean saying the name of the person that they have lost: “I know this is your first Christmas without John; I imagine that could be really hard.”  Or noting the reality of a new life situation:  “This is your first Christmas since the divorce became final, I want you to know that I am with you as you find your way through this new reality.” Maybe you don’t even know what to say. What you say is less important than showing that you remember and that you care.  If you feel at a total loss, say something like, “I have no idea what to say; I’ve never been through a divorce but I want you to know that I support you and am here as your friend/coworker etc. Send a card, give an ornament, fill someone’s car up with gas, bake some cookies, or make a playlist of meaningful songs. Any of these meaningful gestures show that you have not forgotten.   Thanks to our sponsors: FullStack PEO, providing turnkey HR for emerging companies and Handle with Care Consulting, we help you attract and retain talent through holistic employee care.   A closing thought: there is no set timeline or progression of grief.  Your heart can still hurt years after a loss.  Knowing you are not alone is always meaningful.  Connection is an essential part of stabilizing and surviving after loss.  So, this holiday season, take time to remember those that have suffered disruption. Sit down for five minutes and think of people in your organization, your friend group.  Write down their names and, over the course of the next few weeks, reach out.  Your kindness matters.      OUTRO

- Julie McCorkle I didn't allow myself to be as vulnerable as I probably would today because there are a lot of great people out there that do truly care even if they don't understand or don't know what you need. I think I would have voiced that a lot sooner.   INTRO   Today, I welcome Julie McCorkle.  Julie is the head of HR at PERQ, a tech firm here in town.  She shares about the difficult, embodied journey of infertility, and three years of IVF treatments, and how she and Chis welcomed Declan into the world.   This episode is sponsored by Fullstack PEO, where you can get Payroll, Benefits, and Peace of Mind.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care, HR Consulting, empowering your company to respond well when it matters most.   Julie, her husband, and their one-year old son, Declan, recently moved to Indiana from the Washington, DC area.  They love to hike and explore the outdoors…as well as wineries.   - Julie McCorkle We were in Northern Virginia and going like a little farther south and a little farther east it was just beautiful. I mean, the mountains, the Blue Ridge Mountains are incredible, great wineries which we probably went to a little too often. And you know great mountain top wineries. So as a little anxious moving to Indiana just the mountains are left right.   - Julie McCorkle Yeah right. Like as flat and cornfields. But I have been pleasantly surprised that there's a lot of beautiful area here.   Julie came to Indiana to be the head of HR at Perq.  Julie has been in HR for a long time, she likes to say that she stumbled into it.  A summer stint with Huntington Bank in Ohio was her first foray into the world of HR.    - Julie McCorkle They told me I'd be working in H.R. and I literally googled what H.R. stood for. No idea my parents are small business owners I had no concept. And I just stuck with it.   - Julie McCorkle I mean I kind of started out in the benefits field and started moving more on the H.R. management side doing a lot of employee relations and just kind of expanding my wings and just kind of found my path so in time anybody asked me about H.R. and I would just say I'm like a glorified problem solver.   Julie brings both a commitment to problem solving as well as a deep care for people to her work in HR; it is one of the reasons that she is on the Handle with Care podcast today:  her own experience with loss has deepened the role that she sees HR playing within organizations.   - Julie McCorkle One of the things when I started opening up about fertility the amount of other people that were experiencing as well. I was blown away by and I don't think until you start having the conversations that you recognize how many people have suffered like a child loss whether it's a miscarriage whether they're not able to get pregnant whatever it is. I mean every person that I would talk to had somebody in their life that has experienced something similar right or were experiencing something similar. And I think just there's, there's work that's being done, a lot of the work that you are being done in the workplace itself so many people put on masks and different personas to survive to get through the day and don't necessarily recognize the impact that it is having on them or those around them like with work and aren't willing to have the conversations or are in a spot where they can't have the conversations and if they can't have the conversation then shame on that workplace.   - Julie McCorkle  Yeah right. Then it's time to move you're probably way too valuable for them anyways. So for my fellow colleagues like H.R. professionals we are the we're in the profession where it's our responsibility to navigate that for people. There's there's really strong structures that have been built within corporations over her years. Right. That's hard for people to understand and recognize and navigate and that's what our our responsibility is. And you're good. H.R. professionals they're gonna do that for you. So if you are experiencing it if you do need support talk to them.   Julie is an HR person that you would want to talk to, because she has gone through her own story of loss.  And to understand that story, let’s back up a little to her husband, Chris.  Julie had finished school.  Although Chris was older, he had done a stint in the army and was in his junior year.  They were set up in a bar.   - Julie McCorkle  He bought me a beer. I was about it and when we started dating it just just went very quickly very very quickly. Yeah I mean we were, I think we were dating for probably about six to eight months when he accepted a job in D.C. and we had a whole year before we moved.   - Julie McCorkle But Chris technically never asked me to move with him. He told me he accepted the job was like Oh OK great, I'm going with you. So, I didn't have a choice.   - Liesel Mertes You declared your travel plans.   - Julie McCorkle He said That's right. Well great. Charlie ready for the next adventure. All right good. We're going now.   - Liesel Mertes You and Chris have added Declan to your family and I know that that is one of the things that you're here to talk about because that wasn't as straightforward as you would have liked. Tell us a little bit more about how long you and Chris had been together and when you decided that you wanted to start a family.   - Julie McCorkle Yes. So our, I think everything in our life, Chris was far more relaxed than I am. And I definitely have I don't I mean there definite not stringent plans but I normally have my five year plan and we were both finishing up our masters and I always knew that at the point of finishing up our masters that that was at the point that I wanted to start a family. So, we had kind of had the time in line and you know we had been together.   - Julie McCorkle So, the infertility journey was about three years. So we had been married for five had been together for about seven and half years and I think we were both very much ready.   - Julie McCorkle And honestly, I just kind of expected it would be easy. It sounds terrible not that everything in our life has been easy. But you work so hard your whole life to not have kids and at the point when you want to have kids and start a family you just kind of expected to happen. Yeah I mean I definitely did it.   Julie and Chris start trying…a few months go by and Julie goes to the doctor. She gets some tips, and then there is testing, and then talking to a fertility specialist.  By now, six months have gone by.  But Julie is a problem solver, which is what led her to the door of Dr. Leilani.    - Julie McCorkle She was she was very open and very honest in her communication just setting expectations from the beginning just from the initial just meet and greet and deciding if we wanted to go there and understanding all our options and what the process for testing and you know kind of, just all the cost and everything that goes into it and the time commitment and you hear everything you're like OK.   - Julie McCorkle  Yeah we can do this. I mean this is gonna be a significant commitment but we can do this. This is fine. And then as you go through the process you're like Do we really want to keep doing this? Do we really want to keep doing this? There's a lot more than you really expect. Right. It's hard to actually process all that until I think you're in the middle of it.   - Liesel Mertes When I hear that is that perhaps there's initial decision to go down this path. But then there's lots of other decision points along the way. Do we want to continue doing want to keep doing that? Does that feel accurate to you?   - Julie McCorkle Yeah absolutely.   - Julie McCorkle And I think I don't know how similar other couples have experienced it but you know based on other conversations I've had it's probably pretty much the same. It's very incremental. So really, just understanding what the problem is in the first place and whether there's anything that can be done with it is of course the first step. So there's this whole slew of testing that needs to be done. And then there's there's like increments of certain treatments that can be done to see if they work and then it's kind of like just to wait and see.   - Julie McCorkle  So we had decided to do like two eyes right before going down the full IVF path and neither one of those work and that's a five thousand dollar investment and that's about a six month time frame like, Well that was like a total waste of time. Right. Total waste of time, total waste of money but otherwise that's significantly less expensive and less invasive than IVF. So, if we have done that I'm not sure we would have gotten to the same point. Right so there's a lot of back and forth like did I just waste six months of our time?   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Julie McCorkle The IVF investment for us was thirty thousand dollars. Yeah. And there are ways like and I had a very honest discussion about it like this is gonna be a significant investment. This is what we have to do in our family and our household to make it happen. Are we willing to do that. And the question for both of us is yes absolutely right. There's no reason why we want to do it.   - Julie McCorkle We can make it happen. So we're going to. And I think there's a lot of coupling that couples that don't have that and I was also very fortunate to have a lot of support and just the time right to be able to go until late late to work every single day. So I have to stop for lab tests every single morning for a blood draw a lot of the way to start with the emotional social.   - Julie McCorkle You get to know the nurses really well so least you've got great relationships. The traffic wasn't bad. No I was in a great, great fertility clinic. The traffic was terrible. Nice to see you this. It's always it's always vogue but there's a lot of people that do not have the ability to change their life for what they're going through.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah well yeah I hear I hear in that. I mean that is an interesting consideration in the landscape of it not it not that it's like a privilege to walk through something that hard but it's not an option for you know some people that are like it's a hardship but it's not even an available hardship for some people who are like No. Like we don't have the financial resources to give to that right.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck that a journey with infertility is a very physical journey for a woman and lots of like logistics and scheduling. Would you tell us a little bit more about for someone who's not walked through that journey and give us like more of a sense of the physicality? Yeah what it is to go through fertility treatment?   - Julie McCorkle Yeah you're actually right. So I think the physical ness was atrocious really atrocious. There's there's a significant amount of time commitment with scheduling; I mean I was in the fertility clinic every other morning just for bloodwork so just constantly making sure that you're eating the right thing staying away from alcohol which, I love my wine, constantly hydrated right just in order to get a good blood draw is something that it's it's always on your mind it's and it always has to be I think just in order to go through it. So the time commitment of itself is an impact on work, it's an impact on your personal life because it just takes over.   - Julie McCorkle  But the physical ness that you go through just from the medicines and just the side effects from, you know at one point when before they do the retrieval like an egg retrieval you're on a significant amount of fertility meds and my doctor described to me of like having a bushel of grapes sitting outside of your ovaries. So you just feel huge and gross and you can't move and you can't button your pants almost like being pregnant but you don't get the the great resource for it.   - Julie McCorkle So in general I mean when I responded my body like I was about 30 pounds heavier. I was exhausted like absolute exhausted all the time and I just felt. GROSS definitely didn't feel like myself and when I actually got pregnant the first time in three years that I felt healthy again I felt normal felt more like myself and I loved being pregnant because of that there's a lot of people I think absolutely have terrible pregnancies. But for me my body had already processed a lot of the and just the changes in the hormones. So it's the breeze was great.   - Liesel Mertes It's a long time to be feeling not outside of your body but ill at ease. Yeah your body just and all of that emotional stress.   Oh yes with that.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit more about the emotions that accompany that physical journey. What would someone who has not gone through that what would they not understand that would be important for them to know?   - Julie McCorkle So I think the journey and of itself like everything that you go through with the testing and just working through the process of fertility whatever treatments you decide that in and of itself is all consuming right:  the time, the physical, the money, the financial commitment. Mentally, it was all consuming for me. So there was probably not a moment of any day that I didn't think about it. It was consuming of my dreams every single night when I would sleep I would have some sort of dream about our fertility journey and it's all I thought about.   - Julie McCorkle  It's all I thought about and it's you know for me. I mentioned how stubborn I am of like you know I'm not really somebody where you tell me I can't do something and then think that I actually can't do it. So, just starting to recognize the possibility that I'd never be able to have kids was very that was the most emotional part because I never had kids so I didn't necessarily knew what I was missing out on. Now I have Declan, I cannot ever imagine life without him. Right. But we were at that phase yet so   - Julie McCorkle  I think it's just the possibility of not having that and not living up to what I thought my life would be. It was hard to process.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes What were ways that people in your wider community really supported you?   - Julie McCorkle Well yeah. So, I think my work team was actually by far the most supportive that I ever experienced. I mean they were incredible. I remember going to my boss really at the point that we started doing some of the testing because I was out significantly and I didn't want him to think that I was leaving right. I didn't want him to think I was randomly scheduling all these appointments and that I was interviewing. So I sat down his office and like, I just want you to be aware I don't know what the time commitment is but we're having some fertility issues.   - Julie McCorkle  And I just lost it. I just started sobbing and he got up and gave me a big hug and he's like, I don't, whatever you need, whatever you need. Don't stress about it and that. And I was very close with my former supervisor always he's a dear friend of mine. So I knew, when he said, like whatever you need, he actually meant it.   - Julie McCorkle And I leaned on him a lot. I mean throughout. It was about a three year journey. So throughout that time frame just mentally and physically not being at work. I mean there's a lot that he took on to do that but it wasn't just my boss.   - Julie McCorkle but the larger team that I worked with. I had two employees that reported directly to me at the time that I wasn't necessarily there couldn't be there were frankly if I didn't have the mental capacity to deal with something they did. So that team in of itself was incredibly supportive and it's just a question.   - Liesel Mertes When you say that. So those moments in real time because this and they hear like not having the mental capacity to deal with the problem. Yeah. Did you have the self-awareness act like those moments to be able to say, I'm like I'm kind of overwhelmed right now? I need you to take this. Did they sense that? How did that communication go?   - Julie McCorkle No I definitely didn't. OK. And that's one of things that I, after the fact, like after Declan was here and I kind of look back and reflect on that time frame. I like to think that I handled it pretty well. But I'm sure I didn't handle it nearly to the point like to the extent that I thought I did. And I knew that I was stressed and overwhelmed. But I'm one of those individuals where I just take it day by day. Right.   - Julie McCorkle So if there's too many things on my plate I'm I don't like to pass off work. I don't like to say that I can't handle this. I just take it day by day. So I didn't recognize it until after the fact and until really until Declan was successful like successfully conceived. I guess I didn't realize how much the stress was impacting the fertility and kind of our issues and the last implantation they did. That was when my boss Ken mentioned to me, he's like, you need to get out of here like I do. And I told him I was like Yep I agree. Let's get out of DC.   - Julie McCorkle  I'm just gonna work from home. He's like, No I mean there's certain things I know you're going to do because you're stubborn you're still gonna do it but I don't want you to focus on a thing. So the team recognized it more what I needed than what I did right. And they were very good at kind of calling into attention of like I'm just gonna take this off your plate just gonna take it and handle it and I'll let you know how it goes. And you were able to release that to the eggs. I trust them immensely.   - Liesel Mertes That's what I hear in that the importance of an underlying trust that's established in those moments where you can actually believe like oh they're not seeing me as incompetent. They're trying to care for me. I mean, there's a lot of underlying elements of culture that have to be in place for that to be possible. Yeah. Yeah for them to say let me take it. And for you to say OK. Absolutely do that.   - Julie McCorkle Absolutely. And there was. You know, before I even started on the lab journey I had a great working relationship with my boss. I had a great working relationships with my team anyways, and we've always had really open honest communication. So it's a no brainer for me to just talk through it right and just talk about it and they knew my own little personal working style my own quirks and needs. So when they saw me get stressed or saw that I was running around a little frantic and probably not operating at my full capacity, that's when they stepped in and just did it.   - Liesel Mertes Did they have any other particular awareness is or considerations for you within the years of that journey? I know that we had talked about things like baby showers in the office place. How did you feel like that transpired in your workplace and how you felt in the midst of those dynamics or how other people were caring for you?   - Julie McCorkle Yes, I think the individual team around me was incredibly cognizant of those needs and you know, when I was going through the fertility journey you see others that get pregnant and you're really excited for them but frankly you're mad at them at the same time right. And there's there are individuals and then I was surrounded with both my personal and professional life that we'll get pregnant immediately and I became very sensitive over listening trying I don't even know if I want this child I'm like I just want to smack you excuse my violence I you know and my team understanding what I was going through was very cognizant of those conversations and would just just kind of pull me away or you know immediately change the subject whatever it may be. Just recognizing it before I would even recognize it.   - Julie McCorkle And there are a lot you know there's a lot that happens in the workplace. I've mentioned to the colleague of mine she's struggled with infertility for 10 years and I'm not sure if her and her husband will be able to have children they still struggle with it. And she was at a place where she had just tried every avenue possible. There's really nothing else for them to try. Possibly except you know surrogacy and that was kind of the next steps. But there is a baby shower in the workplace and she had just suffered from a miscarriage.   - Julie McCorkle  I don't think anybody recognized why she was out but she was out on the day there was a baby shower. There's all sorts of baby things in her office they're just using her office to kind of organize and store things before the mom could put him in a car and she just shut down right.   - Julie McCorkle So I knew her journey not many people did but I knew of her journey and I grabbed her that day when she she called me up and was extremely emotional in telling about it, like OK you need to go home. I'll tell your boss why you're home just just leave right, like this is what you need in this moment. And I think it's really important to have individuals in your life, regardless of what circumstances either personal or professional, that know and understand and can, you can recognize that that maybe pushes you for something that you need that otherwise you may not do yourself to be able to acknowledge that and give voice to it and give yourself permission to take that space.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of the worst ways that your community like intersected with you or the things that you look back on and you think that was just so dumb or that was so painful?   - Julie McCorkle Yeah. I think the worst honestly was my mom. It sounds terrible; I've got an interesting relationship with my mom anyway and I certainly recognize the things that she's not great at and I know why she is the person that she is and I recognize and I respect that. But, it's very different than me. And we process things in a very different manner. My mom's deeply religious. So everything to her goes back to the Catholic Church the Catholic religion and her beliefs and I'm honestly not so there's comments that she made to me all the time that just really dug into me and a lot of times I just kind of chalked up to, Well that's Mom being Mom right. I had a couple of times like for example she made a comment when I was going through the first surgery was home for a little going away party for my sister and she made the comment about essentially making sure that I'm going to church or leaks at the time they do become they're pregnant. The devil was gonna steal the soul of my baby and I just looked around and I just walked away right. And I mentioned it to my husband who completely blew up and he and I'm sure mom heard him blow up because we were having conversations like I can't understand why she'd make a commentary like that knowing everything you're going through right now and when he said that Mike you're asleep right.   - Julie McCorkle  You're absolutely right. Why would she make a comment like that? Why would she not be supportive? And just, the individual that's in my life the most that should recognize what I need right now.   - Julie McCorkle I don't need you to say anything sometimes I just need you to listen. She wasn't able to do that but she's not who she is. So, there are points and there's a lot of my siblings I'm very close with. There are points that I think they have the same moments like giving advice and you just need to pray more you need to go to church.   - Julie McCorkle  Yes sir I don't think so. You. Where that was that shut me down. And you know after mom made that comment I didn't talk to her for six months and it got to the point when I actually got pregnant I'm like, well you know I actually want a relationship with my mom because I want my son to have a relationship with his grandparents right where I just kind of got over it. But I have now going through that journey recognize the people in my life that I know that I can't live on.   - Julie McCorkle  There are people in my life that regardless of what I go through I will be able to lean on and they will always be there and recognize what I need. And there are others that just won't. And that's OK.   - Liesel Mertes It's interesting as we age how we how we feel like on a deep level those things that you just feel like you know like if you're not safe or these are people I can depend on as you think about those people and you say yeah you're someone that I can depend on. Are there are there characteristics that are common across them where you say yeah they're marked by this?   - Julie McCorkle Yeah, I think just the capacity to listen and not just listening to let somebody talk but listening to actually understand what they're saying. And this is so much of what I do in my work in H.R. where people will come to you and they'll bring some sort of issue to mind. And normally, what they're saying is not what they need it's not what the issue is you have to understand the underlying there's definitely people I found in my life that can look below the surface to really truly understand and just just care. And those individuals are the ones that I think you can lean upon.   - Liesel Mertes I love that that carryover from what your personal journey has been into your professional life because, a lot of times you know that such a divide there's work and then there's your life. I think that's binary in a way that is false. Yeah, but expound on that a little bit more because of what you have experienced. What do you bring differently to your role in H.R.? You say you have the Julie in 2019 has grown beyond the Julie of 2010 in these ways whether that's dealing with infertility specifically or just with anyone who might walk in your door having gone through a disruptive life event.   - Julie McCorkle Yeah absolutely. So I think I think they're great. H.R. professionals out there some that can really understand the balance between supporting and advocating for employees and still looking out for the best interests of the company and there's others that kind of skew one way right through there too far in the company where most the time they don't have the trust of their staff or on the other side like two supportive of staff where they can't actually support the interests of the company. That balance I think I've always done pretty well navigating it and maintaining a healthy balance.   - Julie McCorkle  But I don't think I without going through this journey. I don't think I truly had an understanding of the impact a disruptive life event can have on somebody. I mean I've always think I've been able to listen to them to understand to get to the root of the issue and do my best to help them and especially just navigating management structure right to help them whether it's additional time off or just telling their supervisor they need to be out because their supervisor is not going to react well and they don't need that reaction.   - Julie McCorkle  But truly understanding what that does to somebody going through this journey I've never had that understanding and it's hard to I'm not sure if I ever would if I haven't experienced it myself because it's really hard to understand what somebody is experiencing.   - Julie McCorkle You can listen to them you can have empathy you can care but you have to you have to almost put it in your own context in your own experiences to be able to feel it right here that   - Liesel Mertes Do you have any words of insight to someone who is listening and right now they're in the midst of their infertility journey? Or another way of raising it. Any words that you would give to a younger version of yourself. From what you know now?   - Julie McCorkle A younger version of myself, I think I definitely would have opened up quicker than what I did. I mean, I think I had great conversations great support from the individuals around me   - Julie McCorkle I didn't allow myself to be as vulnerable as I probably would today because there are a lot of great people out there that do truly care even if they don't understand or don't know what you need. I think I would have voiced that a lot sooner. Yeah and I think I would have allowed myself to recognize I need to be away from this.   - Julie McCorkle  I need to be away from work. I need to be away from D.C.. I just need to be in an area that is stress free where I just keep my mind off of the journey itself. What I'm going through and allow myself to voice that I definitely never allowed myself to voice that. And in hindsight I wish I would have. I'm just very fortunate I had people in my life that voiced it for me. And I think recognizing if you do or if you don't have those people allowing yourself to to utilize the help that somebody is willing to lend.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. And for anyone who's listening that says Oh yeah I have someone in my life who is in the middle of this when I have an employee who, this is part of their story, where do you give to someone who finds themselves in those support roles?   - Julie McCorkle I would say to reach out to if you have somebody in your life and you've already developed that relationship where you can start the conversation just starting the conversation of itself is a great place to start. And just reach out to ask them what they need. Just let them talk. And then once they talk truly listen to what they're not necessarily saying. And those are the ways in which you can find to make a difference for that person.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   I want to close with a thanks to our podcast sponsor, FullStack PEO.  The good people at FullStack focus on your people so you can scale your business faster.    And we end, as always, with three take-aways…   Julie spoke about how important it was to have individuals in her life that pushed her to “take her space”, to acknowledge the pain and stress of this season. Like the boss that encouraged her to take time away from DC.  Julie became that person when she encouraged her coworker to go home after the baby shower debacle.  When people are going through stress, they are oftentimes consumed with the needs of the moment.  Perhaps you can be that friend or manager that encourages a friend dealing with infertility to take some necessary space and time; it can mean a lot. Julie was able to be open about her treatments and receive the help and advice of her managers and coworkers because there was a robust culture of trust and respect that was already present in her workplace. Is this the sort of truly supportive workplace that you are a part of?  If not, what are some proactive steps that you can take to build trust BEFORE hard times come?  IVF and infertility treatments can be tremendously taxing on both a physical and emotional level. As you can, give flexibility and understanding to the women in your organization going through IVF.  They are managing tremendous stress in their bodies as well as their schedules in addition to doing their daily work for the organization.   OUTRO  

Jennifer Magley I was I was grieving the loss of of this person of this role in my life and really just more of grieving the life that I thought I was going to have and that that was actually which may be not a great sign but that was actually more painful than even just becoming a single mother it was. Oh my gosh this is my life, I’m this scarlet letter   INTRO   Jennifer Magley is a talented entrepreneur and speaker.  She claims the stage in engagements across the nation and coaches executive leaders.  Her role as an executive coach is fitting; Jennifer was a professional tennis player and then a NCAA Division 1 head coach.    You know when Jennifer enters a room.  She is tall and striking, confidently claiming her space.   But, that confidence is not born out of an unbroken string of successes.  This captivating coach and speaker has dealt with her own share of disruption.  A few years ago, betrayal left her reeling; her marriage was over, she had a newborn and suddenly became an under-employed single mom of two small children.    We’ll jump into her story soon, but, as we begin our episode, I want to introduce two sponsors for the podcast.  FullStack PEO offers turn-key HR for emerging companies.  Glad to have them as part of the podcast because, beyond being good at administering benefits, on a personal level, I also really like the men and women behind FullStack.    We are also sponsored by Handle w/ Care HR Solutions, offering empathy coaching and manager training so you can give support when it matters most.   In today’s episode, Jennifer shares her story of disruption.  She talks about the unrelenting days, the economic challenges, and the misperceptions she regularly confronts. Jennifer also offers a particular, important nuance to the conversation.  She is a woman of color, and this means that she faces additional challenges and hurdles along her journey of single parenting.   We had to reschedule our initial recording session because Jennifer’s car came to a grinding halt in the middle of a busy, northside intersection on her way to the studio.  The tow service was taking forever and traffic was whizzing by.  I met her on the corner of Meridian and 96 Street.  I can’t fix cars, but I did bring her a little carrot cake in a mason jar.  This roadside crisis is the context of the start of our interview.   - Liesel Mertes Jennifer I'm so glad to have you in the studio today. Thanks for coming.   - Jennifer Magley Thank you for coming and for saving my life a couple weeks ago bringing me cake on the side of the road when my car broke down. Yes. You were my hero and are my hero.   - Liesel Mertes Well nothing says comfort in the midst of an auto crisis like baked goods.   - Jennifer Magley That's true. That was it disrupted my entire day. So, it's perfect to start the podcast the show with it. Yes.   - Liesel Mertes Well so you didn't…you had this like minor disruptive life event but you're stuck on the side of the road and I think you guys were headed to like a pumpkin patch or did you get to do day's activities with your kids.   - Jennifer Magley Yeah it's kind of the story of life. You get ready to go. And it's actually always a wonderful plotline because you've got your protagonist and then the disruption happens. Right. And you're hoping for the best and you helped me that moment because it turned into a picnic on the side of the road. I just chose to think it out. Think about it as a picnic rather than my car broke down and it's completely totaled. And you know in front of moving traffic. So yeah, I'm grateful for that. But I made it here finally made it here which is good.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And you are headed out a little bit later to elementary school.   - Jennifer Magley Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes With your son who is a celebrity.   - Jennifer Magley Today is definitely a celebrity of the day which concludes celebrity of the week. So that's all it is I get to be his plus one his his ultimate groupie his number one fan today at lunch for life. Yeah, yeah, Mom, Mom is the number one fan manager maybe I can be as mom and what they call them now.   - Liesel Mertes Well OK, so that's perhaps a good segue way number one fan. Your parents behind you, you have a backstory that brings you here. Tell us a little bit about your growing up right.   - Jennifer Magley So, I'm the oldest of four children and it's been an honor to be their, their oldest sibling I actually just had a little niece named after me with her middle no middle name is Rose. So, my middle name is Rose and I have another niece who is gonna be named after me too, which is Rose, which I'm beyond honored considering I'm such an intense older sibling. So, as I know they're all this for I know. Okay. Go get it.   - Jennifer Magley It's terrifying. So I'm grateful for that. And so that's kind of I guess a testament to the fact that they still love me after all these years.   - Jennifer Magley But I grew up in a loving home wonderful home. You know, we've got generations of married folks that are still married and it's been something that I've been grateful for. So, my whole life I kind of thought that my life was going to track theirs right. And so, I did everything that I could to prepare myself for this future life including just like what we call staying pure till marriage. That's like the biggest stance that I took and I went to a very will say liberal college fun party school and I stuck with that all through those years because it's my own personal conviction. And the reason why I share this part of my story is because it's kind of like putting in all the ingredients for a chocolate cake and into the oven and you pull out a cactus because I thought by doing all of these what I thought were right things for me my life would turn out the way that I was expecting.   - Jennifer Magley  Which was the way of my parents in the way of my grandparents that I would have this particular life.   - Liesel Mertes And in the midst of, I hear that the sense of, oh this wasn't the way it was supposed to go right and you were also very busy in these years as you were going to college. Yeah. And this was a huge part of your world.   - Jennifer Magley Yes I was. I'm a former professional athlete and division one head coach and so I love to have fun and work hard but really you know DONE is my favorite four letter word d o n e like so accomplishing things that is something that was a big deal to me and in a sense getting married and having a family was this bizarre kind of accomplishment. But it's hard to put that on your list of things to do. Yes. On the top of the list get married like you can't force that or find that. And so when I did meet someone through my family I was so excited about it and we knew each other a short time and then we ended up getting married and I thought this was just I was so excited.   - Jennifer Magley  Everything in my life was lining up all the pieces were coming together and go through a fertility journey and you know lose ,lose one early on and end up having kind of this miracle healing where I get to now be the mother of two small boys. It was just really a unique story.   - Jennifer Magley And I've been everything, you know, I've been the breadwinner in my marriage for when I was married for the majority of the time I've been a stay at home mom. I've been I work from home mom or work from work because we all know it's extra work being home. And then now I will just on one day overnight I basically became a single mom and that was completely unexpected.   - Liesel Mertes It sounds like an emotional journey with so many inflection points   - Jennifer Magley I was in my 20s and I was just had the dream wedding everything was beautiful. My mother planned, dad and, I think the biggest part of any relationship and anyone that has a large wedding is that you're standing in front of every single person that means anything to you and you're making these vows. So then when you know you're told the actual truth about your life which was this person had been having there's no other word but just sex with other people from them since the moment he match you over the entire duration of the relationship.   - Jennifer Magley When he confessed this to me in front of our two small children you know that's just the kind of a first thought that comes to mind is the first off for me was oh gosh I'm not crazy.   - Jennifer Magley And then the second part was, oh wow, you know you kind of really have to work through your own ego of, Geez everyone that I have ever known was there and I'm so embarrassed that I didn't see this and I'm so embarrassed that I didn't. How silly of me not to see this coming, I suppose, so that was really those backstories of you know staying air quote pure until marriage just believing in these, these core truths.   - Jennifer Magley For a lot of people and then having it unravel in one moment was definitely a disruption to the life that I thought I was going to. Then I was in it and ever since that moment it has played a huge part of every part of my every moment of my day because I went from being a stay at home mother; I had quit working and actually I was launching my business from my first business then. And that happened two days before a huge piece in The Indianapolis Star came out with both of our photos on it. And so. I had a choice. Am I going to move forward with my business and with my life and becoming a single slash independent mother or am I just going to fall apart in my world fall apart meant to quit and kind of curl up in a ball in your bed and not not get out?   - Liesel Mertes How did how did that decision or those moments unfold? Because, you're in such crises right? You've got these young kids you have this external thing. What did that look like did you have people or resources that you remember and you're like that was that was a game changer for me?   - Jennifer Magley It definitely I'm, I'm so blessed so fortunate that my mother dropped everything like she got that call same day and I'm so kind of articulate the types of varied reactions that people have and everyone's different but in the moment that you realize you've been in an unhealthy relationship where somebody has been taking advantage of you and that's taking advantage of your trust or fill in the blank. You have basically one of two polarizing options. The first is to stay and realize that I am in symbiosis with this person. So I'm, I'm dependent on them and in order for me to stay in this marriage or stay in this relationship I have to change.   - Jennifer Magley  So I have to go to the therapy if that person is willing to try to understand and navigate their lack. And I've got to, I've got to be the one to change because it's impossible for me to be myself and stay in this situation. And then you have the other option which is to just say, this is enough, put your foot down and pivot because the longer you stay in an unhealthy very unhealthy situation the harder it is to get out. If that makes any sense. So, to that point, when I made that I put my foot down and I pivoted.   - Jennifer Magley  I was fortunate to have the resources of my, my mother who dropped everything and actually came to live with me for a while to help me navigate what became a very challenging gosh for years of being a single mother entrepreneur here in the state of Indiana.   - Liesel Mertes So there's so many levels:  I imagine there's the logistics there is just like that the energy level of caring for your two kids. What did you find were some of the biggest misconceptions that people had as you were going through that journey and were it like what were some things that people said?   - Jennifer Magley Well, at the time I lived in Hamilton County. So, Hamilton County in Indiana has 4.5 children per home. So it's kind of the incubator of the Midwest. So, if you want to get pregnant walk through Target and fishers target and yeah there's nothing but kids there.   - Jennifer Magley And so, I lived on this very ideal like street in Fishers where everyone was married and there was only one single mother and she was a bit of an outlier you know within the neighborhood. And the moment I became a fellow single or independent mother as well say I felt like everything changed. And the biggest kind of misconceptions that I had to face were the ones that I had. So, I found myself having to feel I felt as though I had to explain how I became a single mother to people as though there's some type of hierarchy for example oh well this is what happened to me and this is how I became a single mom.   - Jennifer Magley  I was married as though it makes a difference. And that's when I kind of face my own conviction or maybe faulty perceptions of what it meant what it meant to go on your own. And now I don't feel the need to explain my backstory to people I'm just a single mom. Like, what difference does it make if I was married or not.   - Liesel Mertes It's so interesting and just the that unsaid expectations seem to form behavior in really powerful ways. Did you find that navigating you were your family or your social dynamics suddenly felt different? Were there people that really stepped up to bat and were there and were there people they just faded away?   - Jennifer Magley Yeah I feel that crisis reveals a lot of the backstories of people. So, you know there were a few people that said can you make it work like is that you know I know I know this was happening for nearly eight years and you weren't aware of it.   - Jennifer Magley Can you make it work for the children? And that's really revealing. For me, it was a fundamental trust that was broken an identity that of a person that didn't exist basically the way that I saw it that was created and so yeah. There are a lot of people that really just revealed their, their views through their questions or through their ways of wanting to help.   - Jennifer Magley But overall, I would say that I just had a lot of we support your decision because it's a bit like when you hear about the old lady the old lady who's on TV that, I've been scammed you kind of don't ask them to, was there any way you can kind of forgive that scammer and that took your life savings and you go on a date with them. People don't really ask those ladies to do that and it's interesting that in the case of marriage when there are children people ask you to do kind of unthinkable things because nobody is saying to that 90 year old lady like well what role did you play in this scam.   - Jennifer Magley You know, I did open the yeah you did open that door and, and again there's people that shun women for running in a sports bra. And so, there is that mentality out there but I didn't encounter a ton of it at all with my own family I over how to just loads of support and they essentially became more of a village for my kiddos to raise them.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of it… so your mom dropped everything and came.   - Jennifer Magley She did and then moved into our into my house. My mom and my dad they made that their HQ for a while.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What were other things that you look back and you think of people on the way that you go in those immediate stages that was so good, I really appreciated that?   - Jennifer Magley Yeah gosh I would say that it was really my mom. So I've been asked, like OK did you do therapy? Like what did you do to cope? Because what happens and this is a lot of times what happens with grief is the same thing that happens with deception. You your good memories are also painful. So when you look back and it's like oh oh this is what was going on when it was my birthday and I was pregnant. Oh this is where you were actually after the wedding the wedding reception for my family. You were out doing your extracurricular activities so then every single good memory is tainted because of that.   - Jennifer Magley And so my mom really was the one that stepped up and I didn't have therapy but I had like 24 hour intense support and my mother. And it was a lot of extreme moments for me because I think like grief, I was I was grieving the loss of of this person of this role in my life and really just more of grieving the life that I thought I was going to have and that that was actually which may be not a great sign but that was actually more painful than even just becoming a single mother it was.   - Jennifer Magley Oh my gosh this is my life is the scarlet letter. You know within my little suburb community in the Midwest I'm suddenly and actually that phrase hot to trot. You've heard it comes from like the 50s when women started getting more and more divorced, divorced the guys at the barbecues would elbow each other and say oh look at her you know she's Miss Smith now she's hot to trot. So, there is definitely a stigma that comes with being.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Did you feel that ever reflected back to you like that sometimes we have fears and then there's that awful moment where you're looking and you're like oh yeah you are perceiving me that way? You are giving off that vibe right?   - Jennifer Magley So as it's really a that's a good question because as a woman of color in a lot of different industries that I've worked and I've just really used to dealing with perceptions that I don't even identify mostly that they're happening. I just think, OK this person doesn't know enough information about me and that's not my default setting because my father is white. My mother is black. So and also the way that I'm being perceived is is highly predicated on this person's point of view. Like where they're coming from what they view me. So that just kind of added another layer to an already set expectation that people have. I think I think.   - Jennifer Magley I've actually heard more comments about the fact that I was married because 80 percent of children of color are born into single mother households. So, there is this perception that I would be and I didn't know that people were perceiving me to be a single mother already. Even when I was married. So I think it was a bit of the reverse awakening of, oh wow I didn't I didn't realize people were seeing me as a single mom even when I was married.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me is kind of odd. Tell me a little bit more about that. That the expectations of being single and being a multiethnic background what are what are the different things that you feel like. Oh yeah. People who are like single parenting baseline is hard but if you're a white single mom like you don't actually have to field this sort of stuff.   - Jennifer Magley So, what I can speak to about that is awesome question and very brave question because not everybody wanting to have these kinds of conversations. So, I think in the state of Indiana we are the second worst in regard to the gender pay disparity the wage gap. So, it's something like seventy nine cents on every dollar. That's how much a woman makes in Indiana like we're second worst in the nation. And so what that means is that a woman of color only makes 54 cents. So, the way that plays into my world as a single mother entrepreneur is that I essentially have to work sometimes three or four jobs to make ends meet because I'm statistically not earning that full dollar as opposed to my male counterpart parts or as opposed to people that are of different ethnicities. So the statistics within Indiana make my demo a little bit harder.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I hear that does it. Do you feel like there is you've built a community of support of like other people that are living this sort of a reality that you're like Oh man I can talk with them about stuff and they just get me in a way?   - Jennifer Magley Yeah I know. So, it's really interesting it's kind of like belonging to a secret society. Right. And I didn't know that this existed until I became it. So I'm sure and certain with your journey you tell them what you've gone through and if they've been through it you immediately have an understanding just it's right in the eyes. You're like OK we're here. So I feel that way with former student athletes women that played sports in college or professionally. And I also feel that way about single mothers. It's, it's an immediate sisterhood. Now that said it's not always a continual sisterhood because of the demands on our time. So I find that I have very quick intimate connections but then sometimes we're always just going we're just going especially when you have multiple children and you have full custody of them as I do right now and so you know you just you're just going so quickly   - Jennifer Magley And it's hard in general to find people who have been to where you're going and finding that like single mom mentor or that person that you call and say oh my gosh how did you make it? I haven't found her yet but I know there's plenty out there   - Liesel Mertes What are the what are some of the hardest daily moments or like in the rhythm of a week can make you think this is just a particular challenge to being a single mom and an entrepreneur? Yes give us a little window.   - Jennifer Magley So looks like I will break it down with within 24 hours. So I think that I actually wrote a piece about this how I'm calling it the equal time fallacy that people tell you Oh you've got to same 24 hours as fill in the blank you know tycoon or talk show host. And the truth is we don't; we don't have the same 24 hours as other people because we don't have a team of people or even a partner that's 24 hours with you that can do things. So because I have that fallacy   - Jennifer Magley I get up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning every day and that's the only time I have where I'm by myself and if I don't get up at that time and do my habits and my rituals. I don't know I just I haven't actually not gotten up at that time during a weekday for years so I get up at four or five get the kids off to school on that bus by 7:40 the other little guy off to his childcare and then I'm just going until the moment I collapse in the bed at 10:00.   - Jennifer Magley  So those challenges are, you know, you've got the stress of being what this male classically male stress of oh well he's gotta provide you know he's, he's stressed out. Let him go off for let him let some steam off. I have that then I have the invisible work that fairplay talks about this new book fair play that's out about the amount of home work life work we have to do at home. I have the invisible work of emotions and having to navigate and go into school and handle everything and raised you know kiddos full time.   - Jennifer Magley So I feel like I have become this hermaphrodite of responsibilities. You know where I've got the demands and responsibility of a man. And but and also supposed to nurture as a woman.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah.   - Jennifer Magley There's so much to juggle in the midst of a given day and starting that day at 5:00 o'clock in the morning with zero guaranteed dollars in my bank account. Right. And that has been something that I'm always transitioning and oscillating between because I mean I say zero guaranteed because when you do your own thing it's not until somebody pays you that it's real. They can sign an agreement. They can say yes come speak in Hong Kong but until you've got that money it's not a real thing until they're all signed on the dotted line.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Yes. You touched on a little bit, but we've talked about ways in which people have been supportive. Mm hmm. The support that you need. How is it changed from those immediate stages of like oh my gosh everything is falling apart right now to a stage right now that's different but I imagine you still need support systems? What does good support look like for you 2019?   - Jennifer Magley So this is not going to be politically correct but when everything first happened there was a woman actually in my neighborhood that had cancer and I thought to myself and then there was another friend of mine who lost her husband and he died and I literally and my self-pity was like, boy they've got it good because in my mind when you had cancer I saw everybody signing up to bring meals and watch the kids and rally for her because she has no strength her hair is falling out and she was receiving some kind of support.   - Jennifer Magley  And then when my other girlfriends husband died. Same thing. They're setting up college funds they're doing go fund me and they're raising all kinds of money for this very sad story of a young mother who lost her husband well when I became a single mom. None of that happened for me and no one rallies in that public way and says, Boy let's set up a fund for these two young children that now have parents that are split up because they, they are thinking well there's some fault here. And I just think that in general sickness and death garner more support initially than anything else so back then the support that meant the most to me was some friends sending me money.   - Jennifer Magley Actually, initially to help me move forward to be able to separate myself and kind of disengage from that unhealthy relationship. And then now what that looks like is just a friendly ear now and then so I can vent and just kind of brainstorm how do I continue to co parent with in this difficult relationship. You know ,for the next, I mean I'd like to say it's only 14 years but we all know that that's not real life. You know you've got. How do you navigate the difficulty of this partnership that's not really a partnership?   - Jennifer Magley So that's challenging. So, it looks different. You know the immediate monetary needs are there. Just as any crisis requires that.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Yeah that's a great point. How some things there, there just seem like more of a universal signal home like, like we should rush in and give care. And there are other things where because of the assumption of blame or because of, oh man that would just be so messy and I don't know who to side with. I'm sure that affects how people show up or how they don't show up.   - Jennifer Magley And to kind of, if I'm looking back and to kind of give a bit more perspective. Yes. In the aftermath of this I have cast myself as the protagonist as we all do. But when I look at it and I say, how did I even end up in this situation where I was married to what I jokingly call my number one hater? It's because I essentially, I think may have been my number one hater. You know someone can't mistreat you unless you think that that's OK.   - Liesel Mertes I'm sure that there is a lot of actual personal work.   - Jennifer Magley Oh my gosh you had that. I think afterwards, I kept dating people and thinking gosh all men are like this. But what was the common factor? Me. So I think that it requires any traumatic event where there's a revelation or separation or death. You kind of think how could I have avoided this?   - Liesel Mertes What is one of the things that you like best about who you are becoming over the last four years?   - Jennifer Magley I'm a completely different person than I used to be and a lot of respects. So, what that tipped off was me actually having a story. So I'm reading a lot and my major was English about what does it mean to create a story and write and essentially nothing happens until your life is disrupted.   - Jennifer Magley The character wakes up in the morning and they don't know that aliens are invading in the afternoon while that doesn't mean anything until you know the backstory of that main character. So, Lisa Kron actually wrote a great book about how to storytelling. So what I realized is that that has this has created my story of my life which requires transformation and the transformation for me has been learning how to represent myself learning more of who I am.   - Jennifer Magley Figuring out how to make magic and, and kind of also figure out how to have leisure and when I say make magic I mean transform. Whether that's consulting or speaking or coaching and how can I fit the need with a service that's being brought to me for that day or for that time and how do I monetize that? How do I maximize every moment that I have? So, it's required me to become a different or better version of myself.   - Jennifer Magley Yeah, I think you know this show is about disruption than about difficult things in life. And it's really not until we encounter that that all of the things that you believe are tested you know for the longest time. Firs,t how this played into me was my even my relationship with faith and my belief in God and, you know I a lot of these relationships and talk and the United States is about you know how much you love God and how you know prayer is about your, your encounter with God you what you are saying to God.   - Jennifer Magley  Well, when you go through something like this and kind of your air your testimony as it's called within the Christian faith is made a mockery. It's a total joke like my life testimony became almost like a joke. What I've had to do is take a step back and say, you know, what if God it's not about how much we love God what about if it's about how much God loves us unconditionally, how God is always faithful to us in whatever way you can find. What if it's about instead of talking to God if it's about listening?   - Jennifer Magley  So, my prayer life has been over the last few years. Just when I'm waking up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning I'm just listening because why do you have to say hey you know this isn't a Santa Claus. And even if you give me what I want look what happened in my life like I got what I wanted and it was a an explosion. So when you don't know what's best for you that's really humbling.   - Liesel Mertes Do you have any words if there's someone listening who is in there really journey with him needing to read script life you know marriage is what they're being confronted with like this was not what I signed up for. What would you offer to someone who's at that place?   - Jennifer Magley Well the first thing I would say is if you are being mistreated. If that is any kind of abuse sexual mental emotional physical and really the first abuse that as women ish we should all be aware of is financial abuse because that's where it starts. Is the money. So, if financial abuse:  know what that looks like. That's anywhere from not having control over your full finances not having your own personal account having to ask for permission to do things. Yeah be aware of that. So, the first thing is if you were in that unhealthy situation get out. The sooner the better get out remove yourself from this situation.   - Jennifer Magley I'm not saying end your relationship or and your marriage but find some space where you can reflect on the events that have been going on in your life. And truly, if there's smoke there's fire. The number one thing is you're going to feel like you are crazy like, I'm crazy to think that or if you're always asking yourself what did I do wrong here. Jeez I keep messing up; I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Well this is the language of someone who doesn't realize they're in an unhealthy relationship because it's not that you are doing necessarily anything wrong.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah and if there's someone listening that they go oh my gosh my my sister or my high school best friend or my uncle they're going through this divorce right. Oh gee it feels so awkward. I don't know what to do. I'm not going to bring it. What are words that you would give to someone who's in that support role?   - Jennifer Magley Yeah just, so I would say text messages. Just want to let you know I love you because the other thing is is, like as a person on the outside. The last thing you want is for them to call and like vomit on you all the time because that is a tendency for somebody who is coping as they just don't know how to have that internal conversation. A lot of times for me I was like, oh gosh I just need someone to listen. And I would say support them really if you're not wanting to hear all the details set a boundary like I would encourage that person to say I really love you, but during the day I'm working. And can I give you a ring. Like next Wednesday. And just set that firm boundary with that person because they're in a lot of pain. And so, it's OK to tell the person who's hurting no, I think that's another thing that is not encouraged because you're like I'll just be there for them and it's OK to say, like oh no this is going to support you and I want to support you in this way. I appreciate that there is a little different problem. Well there's some there's some good wisdom in that because it's, it's something I can be free. I can be for you in these settings and it makes you available in ways that you can be available right. This is a little nuance.   - Liesel Mertes Is there anything that an employer should specifically in our business to say like this is something to be aware of for single moms and why not?   - Jennifer Magley Yeah. You need to hire them. You need to hire single mothers and here's why they are doing more than you can even begin to imagine. And you always want a busy person to complete the task right. They say recruiting whether it's for a board whether it's for a job like hire a busy person to do it. And I would say just because someone is a single parent because a lot of single dads out there sometimes I feel like they get a few more medals then when they're in the car line and you're like oh he's a single dad it's like how is that sexy I'm a single mom. Come on. And you know like but. But anyways I would say hire them hire the single parent and know that that hire might mean even more than you can fathom because they're going it alone. So I would say hire them.   - Liesel Mertes It's a good word. Any other things that you would like to add that you didn't get a chance to say?   - Jennifer Magley I I think that the biggest, the biggest thing with telling my story is the era that we live in which is the digital age and knowing that every time I tell my story it's possible that it's going to outlive me because it's going to be on the internet and trying to have this sensitivity knowing my son's, well, you know may or may not have their avatars listen to as they you know deal with becoming part robot in the future.   - Jennifer Magley But I think, when they do hear this, I always want to try to have like a sensitivity but also speak my truth because the things that we go through in life. This is a cliché, but they're not just meant for us. You know, think everything you went through you now have a platform and you're sharing to inspire and encourage other people.   - Jennifer Magley I just want to tell anyone that's listening:  don't be ashamed of speaking your truth. Go ahead and know that you have the power to, to share what you believe in because of what you've experienced. People cannot argue with your experience. You can be the expert of your own experience and so that's the one thing that's fascinating is you can say what you believe and people will argue with you but if you share what you've been through. People respect it and connect with it.   - Liesel Mertes That's true. We're made to connect with those stories. Absolutely.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   This important conversation was sponsored by FullStack PEO.  With experience in payroll and benefits, they take care of your people so you can take care of business.    We are also sponsored by Handle w/ Care HR Solutions.  We all fall down, but empathy coaching through Handle with Care HR Solutions helps you create a community where people survive, stabilize, and thrive after life knocks them down.   I come away with many, many takeaways from my conversation with Jennifer, but I will close with just three. Jennifer said that she needed friends that were just available to listen, friends that sent text messages and were present with her as she worked her way through pain. Be that friend…but don’t be afraid to communicate your boundaries.  If it is a difficult time for you to talk, communicate your constraint.  “I’m so sorry that you are going through this and I’m glad you reached out.  However, I’m at work right now and can’t talk. Can I give you a call tomorrow night to hear more?”  A statement like this shows care while still communicating your limitation. Unlike a diagnosis or a death, men and women that go through a divorce often don’t receive an outpouring of support.Friends and coworkers can be afraid of taking sides.  But, divorce can still turn your world upside down and leave you reeling.  So, if you are a friend or a coworker, consider sending a card, writing a check, or bringing a meal.  It could mean so very much. ‘ Disruptive life events are universally hard...and they can be even harder if you are part of a minority. Talking with Jennifer widened my perspective in an important way.  As a white woman, there is a lot that I am still learning about what it means to be a part of a minority in America. Jennifer offered us a window into her experience:  the economic hurdles of making less and the social hurdle of people’s assumptions because of her skin color.  I want to keep learning, listening to stories and doing the grinding work of taking a long look at how I make these assumptions and how I help to perpetuate these hurdles in my personal interactions.    OUTRO   If you want to learn more about Jennifer, check out her work here: Jennifer Magley Introductory Video (30 seconds)  Recent WISH TV Segment: The One Word You Should Never Use Again (5 minutes) Quit Saying Sorry All The Time (LinkedIn)  How To Start A Business With No Money (Foundr Magazine) Jennifer Magley Website

How do you support families living under the shadow of a long-term illness?  Parkinson’s disease is relentless and degenerative.  There is no cure.  Jason Berns remembers his dad, Don.  Don was diagnosed with Parkinson’s at the age of 33; Jason was just 8 years old. Jason reflects on the challenges of living in the shadow of Parkinson’s, the importance of honesty and community, and the power of hope.      – Jason Berns As my dad would say you know Parkinson’s has been extremely hard it didn’t create the life that we would have imagined and in on disability at 41 and but need, neither he nor my mom would say I wish it hadn’t happened. I think it shaped us into who we are. It allowed us to be more of who God has created us to be empathetic sympathetic, caring, driven, gritty, persevering, and and joyful again.   INTRO   In 2019, official US estimates stated that 40 million Americans were caregivers.  This means they were helping family members with the tasks of daily living or with their medical needs.  These caregivers oftentimes juggle their own families, careers, and personal needs while caring for their loved one.    My guest today is Jason Berns.  Jason knows what it is to love and care for a parent with a lingering, debilitating disease. Jason’s father, Don Berns, lived half of his life with Parkinson’s disease.    But first, a little bit more about Jason.  Jason is a realtor out in California.  He is married to Laura, who is also a co-owner of the business.  After a season of infertility, marked by miscarraiges and doctor’s visits, they were delighted to have three girls:   Charlotte Caneel, Alexandra Adele, and Elizabeth Dawn.   Jason is also my big cousin; his father, Don, was my Uncle.  In my childhood memories, Jason looms large, swooping in from California for a midwestern holiday visit.    - Jason Berns And boy I've had the blessing of growing up in a loving family. You'll hear a little bit more about that and some of the things that have shaped me through that grew up in I was born in Indianapolis and moved to California when I was one spent most of my young adult life growing years and La Canada and then walking out to Southern California.   - Jason Berns Then I went to college in Santa Barbara at the opportunity to work overseas in Romania right after the communist regime was overthrown in the orphanages over there.   - Jason Berns And then I studied in Israel moved back and got my degree in elementary school for about seven years and had an opportunity to go travel and watch tennis around the world and get that in Hawaii in the Caribbean. And that took me all over the world.   - Jason Berns And then in 2006 moved back knowing that my, my dad probably mom probably needed me to be a little bit closer than living in Hawaii at that time to help care for my dad and to be present.   - Liesel Mertes My uncle Don Is your father and I know that his health and his presence in your life is really important forming force. Tell us a little bit about his journey with Parkinson's and when as a child you first became aware that your dad had this disease.   - Jason Berns Yes so I was born in 1973 and was my dad was a college athlete and an engineering major so brains and brawn. He played tennis in college at Duke University and again growing up even as a little kid.   - Jason Berns I always wanted to be out playing sports throwing a ball hitting the ball kicking a ball whatever it was when skiing.   - Jason Berns My dad was the youth pastor for our church here in locking me up for a number of years and being with the youth was always very active and I got the benefit of being involved and around those the youth group and seeing dad play basketball or see him play tennis against the varsity tennis players and going and watching it was in March of 1981. We were, my dad led a ski trip every year for the youth group to go to Utah to ski for five days over spring break and in 1981, I was eight my sister was four and we weren't going to ski Utah I'd been going since I was about three so I'd been about five times and I love skiing and was told that we weren't going to be going to ski Utah this year because Dad had to go to the hospital and have pulled off.   - Jason Berns And didn't think much of it myself other than mom said that there was a little bit of actually no that wasn't the case. So he went to the hospital. It was probably several days of tests and then I remember them coming home and saying that we think Dad has been diagnosed with the disease called Parkinson's disease. Parkinson's, prior to Michael J Fox and his notoriety, was really a disease that most people associated with people 65 and older, people who were just getting older and it was part of getting older for people. And here was my dad:  a vibrant active 33 year old a wonderful ministry and very athletic and he was starting to have a little shaking on the left side of his body   - Liesel Mertes For people who are not familiar with the symptoms or progression of Parkinson's what how is that affecting his day to day? You mentioned the hand tremor and sweating. What did it that look like beyond those symptoms?   - Jason Berns So, Parkinson's Disease is a neurological disease. They don't really know what causes it. There are there's still lots of research going on out there but it's a progressive disease. It is not something that is, there's no cures. There's no cause. There have been examples of people who have a head injury head injury and later end up being diagnosed with Parkinson's because of a head trauma. So that has, there has been some links to that but most often it starts with a tremor a shaking on one side of the body.   - Jason Berns There are lots of different strands of the disease but you just slowly lose the ability to do some of the basic life functions. From feeding yourself cutting, cutting meat buttoning your own buttons you'd speak. There are times where you your body sort of freezes and you can't really move there.   - Jason Berns The disease you're lacking dopamine which is a neurotransmitter which the brain sends out. It's the little messenger that when you want to move your finger the little neurotransmitter that goes from your brain to your finger that sort of allows you to move your pinky finger and it's your lack in the dopamine. So it could be slurred speech. It could be slowing down. Difficulty walking.   - Jason Berns  And I remember when I was in high school having a wheelchair ramp built into the house for the possibility of him being on a wheelchair. My dad was never one who was going to give in to that and was going to continue to function but there were times where he basically froze and couldn't move and you just had to wait.   - Jason Berns I think one of the things you learn early on in this is you don't want to rescue these people. You may you may just have to be patient and if they're having trouble eating a bite and the tremor in their hand is shaking. Just give them time to get that bite. Don't don't take the fork and put it in their mouth. They're still humans that just is going to take a lot longer especially as the disease progresses. In his mind, there was a documentary done on dad years ago and one of the videos is of him sort of in the middle of the night getting a glass of water because he has to take these medicines to sort of allow him to manage the disease. And again he kind of get the cup of water to his mouth. He just sat there and the whole bottle full glass of water just kept shaking and shaking... sorry I kept shaking in the water all spilled.   - Jason Berns Again it's not sad because of that but it's just it's a humiliating disease that allows you to lose the basic functions of living in said. My dad had some wonderful friends and finding support. There's a gentleman named John Ball who's now had the disease is his disease for 40 plus years was a similar age bracket as my dad and he still is running marathons.   - Jason Berns So I think one of the huge things is you have to be able to manage your expectations you have to manage your body. My dad was committed to exercising and continuing to go to the gym up until about probably a year or two before two or three years before he passed away where he was going to the gym and exercising and again people would be afraid that he could hardly walk and could barely get there and yet he'd be pumping iron.   - Jason Berns  And there was no quit. And I think that makes a big difference having that attitude of I'm never going to give up, I'm going to be able to persevere through whatever may come and again so many life lessons in that. So, it's a progressive disease. It's a disease without a cure it, it doesn't necessarily kill you but it certainly defeats your spirit if you allow it.   - Jason Berns I remember with much gratitude my parents again. I don't think they chose to hide it from me or in our journey from anyone. I think one of the challenges a lot of people have Parkinson's can be a pretty humiliating defeat disease especially as it progresses and I think for better or worse people want to hide it and we end or let bosses or not other people know because you never know what people are going to say. I remember clearly a couple of years later my mom was also a pastor at the church and part of a dream for my parents was to have their own church and be able to be co pastors of a church and they had dear friends who were doing that.   - Jason Berns  And I think that was a dream and I remember going down that journey a little bit and watching and there was a church member where forty five minutes away where they'd gone through the process and were looking seriously about hiring my parents and then discovering he had Parkinson's that they could never hire someone in that situation not knowing his future and I think that dream for my folks sort of was let go. And I think the reality of just sort of the disease continuing and having some people at the church say in the youth group it's a little distracting to have Dad speaking up there...Sorry, I miss my dad.   - Jason Berns So he was someone with great strength and I again the blessing of how he and my mom chose to live life with Parkinson's was the people, people saw the struggle. People saw that it wasn't easy. As the disease progressed over the years he lived victoriously with the disease for 36 years.   - Liesel Mertes And what was it like for you as an 8 year old and growing up to, what was your emotional journey like watching your dad have his capacities reduced like that you know it was?   - Jason Berns As a young athlete, I identified a lot with him and just what would it be like for me not to be able to go play basketball or tennis or whatever and that was so it was hard to see it as we did some family counseling to process it all realizing that everyone handles trauma and stress and challenges differently as we sort of looked at it.   - Jason Berns My dad, the four of us in our family my dad was sort of the one with the very positive enthusiastic nothing's going to defeat me I can handle it. God's gonna give me strength and we're gonna be okay and that optimistic perseverance is what allowed him to overcome for so many years. My role was probably the one that I took on the worry took on the concern:  what's, what's the future hold? What does this mean for him? What does that mean for our family? And how I didn't know and so not being able to control that, that's something that shaped me and later on in life as I've interviewed for jobs.   - Jason Berns  I remember interviewing for a tennis pro job and again where they staff tennis pros at high end resorts around the world and they said Is there something interesting that we need to know and I just sort of said, it's really hard for me to know to not know where I'm gonna go because I could have been sent anywhere and I wanted there certain things you can't control but those are the things I really wanted to control.   - Jason Berns My mom was probably the one who is the most healthy and letting out some of her disappointment and anger in it and being able to express that which was healthy. And my sister from that time she just she didn't remember dad without the Parkinson's. This was just who Dad always was; he was diagnosed when she was 4 and again I think as she once said Dad was always a little weird, he was always shaking a little. For me, it was, I knew him before and knew what he could do and there was that loss and , I think I really identified with that and what that would be like.   - Jason Berns I think that's shaped me a lot into the person I am today and having a heart for those with special needs.   - Jason Berns There was just an ability to be empathetic and understanding to people who were sick and people who may be struggling to do the basics of eating dressing so it's again my life.   - Jason Berns I would say most definitively in the last 10 years being married that shaped me as much as anything. But prior to that the, the effect of Parkinson's and how that has shaped me in my life and our family is probably a significant event as any   - Liesel Mertes You talked about returning to the U.S. because you realized that your mom could use some additional support in caring for your dad as he aged and as his Parkinson's progressed. What has it been like to, you know, in his final years have a parent who had those needs  as you are establishing a business and raising a young family. How did you feel that that affected your daily rhythms?   - Jason Berns Daily. As I reflected especially in his passing for 30 again the most for my mom there wasn't a day for thirty six years where she didn't have to think about, I wonder what Don needs and how can I help with that? And I would say, I wasn't as extreme, that there probably weren't many days over the last thirty five years where there wasn't a thought, How's dad? What does Dad need or how can I help? And again he was it wasn't because he was asking for help. It wasn't because mom was saying you need that but there was just sort of the awareness of wanting to be there and be present   - Jason Berns When I moved back in 2006. He was 60 so it had the disease for twenty five, twenty six years and at least since it had been diagnosed and so those first six months, I lived in an extra bedroom in my parents home that they were in at that point to be present. It was it was intense.   - Jason Berns As he as the disease progressed and he wasn't able to make the best choices. In some ways, he still wanted to be independent. But things like driving, when it came it became clear that there was a need to take his ability to drive away.   - Jason Berns That's really painful season of having to be that adult to your parent when your parent's really not that old and be a part of that and help my mom in that process.   - Jason Berns I remember driving down the street when I was living, living with them and seeing him run two red lights just as he as I was driving the other way. And it just became clear, OK ,this is not safe; his life is in danger and other people's lives are in danger.   - Jason Berns And then again being able to be be there to lift him up. When Lenny and fallen again as I got, while my dad played tennis golf became the one sport that he could continue to do beyond the young and working out at the gym we could get him in a car we could drive him up next to the ball we could get him out of the cart we could hold him from behind and then he could be shaking, shaking, shaking and then with all the strength and I mean focus and then swing and then he'd fall.   - Jason Berns And I remember in those us five to 10 years it would not be unlikely that he would fall one hundred twenty times in a round of golf and again falling once is hard on your body but literally going from standing to falling as a 6'4 person, that's a pretty big fall. And the last couple of years or probably the last year the last three or four times we played, he would often pass out and he would fall and pass out and his eyes would roll and then we'd lift him up and carry him back to the cart and then he'd come to be and wouldn't know that anything happened and yet it gave him so much joy to be out there and be able to continue to do things and have that can do attitude even though most would say you're crazy Why are you doing that? And we were able to do that up until the end.   - Liesel Mertes As I hear that. I mean that's it's an exceptional and painful memory. Like it is exceptional. But how did you, how did you find the strength to do rounds of golf with him? Was, I imagine an that's hard as a child. It's hard to see your dad like that?   - Jason Berns Yeah. Certainly it was hard, again, developing all sorts of stomach problems from way back in high school and learning how to cope with my own ways. Again, when I worried I had to learn how to be healthy and how to how to deal with that and not just internalize and I've always said as long as I can remember, I've always had a weak stomach because of all the stress and pressure I put on so. But there was the one side of just this is hard but there is always, again, he by his leadership with my mom was you know this there's joy in this.   - Jason Berns There so much more than the suffering and his, his story is marked by a joy that is not dependent on circumstances. And you know I think there's often that just what I've witnessed from him and learn from he and my mom is that there's a real significant difference between happiness and joy and happiness is circumstantial where you know I can be real happy because my I got this job promotion or my daughter won this award or etc..   - Jason Berns But the joy is something that joy is something that can't be taken when it walk anymore or when you lose a leg where you where you have to have surgery where you're diagnosed with cancer again circumstances we can't often control and yet joy is something that again as a person of faith comes from something deep within, that is of the Lord and is something much, much more much deeper. So I I think there was there the reality of being willing to say this sucks this is not fair. But I've still got joy in life is good.   - Jason Berns And the grand scheme of things we are incredibly blessed. And I was fortunate to be able to have been able to see a lot in this world and as challenging as things sometimes have been.   - Jason Berns We're still far more blessed than we are struggled in the challenges we've, we've, we've faced and   - Jason Berns Yet, as my dad would say you know Parkinson's has been extremely hard it didn't create the life that we would have imagined and in on disability at 41 and but need, neither he nor my mom would say I wish it hadn't happened. I think it shaped us into who we are. It allowed us to be more of who God has created us to be empathetic sympathetic, caring, driven, gritty, persevering, and and joyful again.   - Jason Berns But I think life experiences we all will face those challenges and we can get better we can get stronger we can grow or we can sort of shrink and we can get angry and bitter and we'll be in a number of people where Parkinson's has destroyed the family and where debilitating illness has broken things apart or addiction.   - Jason Berns  And we were just on the phone with a client this morning and a marriage of a number of years but addiction and an illness that came from that has broken up the family and I'm very fortunate. My parents made a commitment and shared that with me that my mom promised my dad and lived it out every day that she would never leave leave him no matter how hard it got. And in the same light my dad made the commitment that he would never take his own life no matter how hard it got. And they lived out those commitments they lived out amongst many others   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. As you think about a community of people that come alongside you in this what were ways in which you would really meaningfully supported?   - Jason Berns  Boy. I think that's the power of community. My, my parents had a small group that they were able to be real with and real in the challenges. And I think the call to do life with others is something I witnessed and have observed and certainly tried to emulate and put into practice.   - Jason Berns I look back at our family and we I think one of the questions that I read before is how did people miss me or misunderstand or miss me in the caring and I feel overwhelmingly that people got it and people helped us people loved us. The church for years they had meals that were prepared that were dropped off at the church for our family not because we're asking for it but it was just a tangible way for people to sort of ,let's drop off a meal at the church anonymously or not anonymously and it would be there for the Berns.   - Jason Berns  My mom; I don't know how she did all that she did but, I mean, those meals that were dropped off, having people just care. There was a gentleman name again as my dad being an athlete and me being an aspiring athlete growing up. A good friend of my father was Brad Holland, who had been a star basketball player at UCLA and drafted by the Lakers the same year as Magic Johnson and was on the Lakers and after his career was cut short because of knee injuries and things that Brad said to my dad as was relayed to me, "Don let me step in and be that father in this sporting arena that you're not able to be and be able to do some of those things so you can." In eighth grade, he coached my all star basketball team and this was someone who would later coached at UCLA coached teams that went to the NCAA tournament and yet he was given his time to coach this little seventh and eighth grader and worked out with me independent individually just to so that there was ways to feel loved and where my dad's disease didn't leave me without. I have gotten so much more.   - Jason Berns We were cared for we were. We knew that we were not alone in this journey. And that makes all the difference. I think it's hard when I see people who are isolating when they're struggling in the in a journey of debilitating disease because they don't know how to do that. I'm very fortunate that Mom and Dad chose to live out there and the stories that the ways that touched other people as we shared about my dad at his memorial service the person who was ready to commit suicide and then my dad a picture of my dad flashed in front of their eyes and just his ability to struggle in front of other people and be OK.   - Jason Berns This person chose not to take their own life because they knew that they could persevere.   - Jason Berns And I think when we allow ourselves to be real and transparent and I think similar to what you're doing Liesel in this podcast on facing the hurt and the sadness that you've experienced in your life and yet finding a way to bless others and let other people hear that life's not real clean and life is messy and life hurts but we can get through it and we we need to do it with others we can't do it on our own.   - Jason Berns  There's just so much truth and richness in that. I've been blessed with incredible fellowship of your friends my entire life. My closest friend from the time I was with Sean Whiting he and I 44 years of doing life together and there's been times where we've been little closer than others. But couple years ago we were in India Lebanon kids at these orphanages together.   - Jason Berns And I have a group of guys in college who was the discipleship group where we lived together the year after college and yesterday literally as I was in a matter of 15 minutes I had text messages from six of these guys who twenty four years ago we were pursuing life purposefully together on what it means to be intentional about life and as I said to each of them this is so amazing to have twenty four years later after college to have all of us still in touch and being purposeful about living life and we're not in touch all the time but we can connect   - Jason Berns And about a year ago, I met with a group of guys on a weekly basis for the last 17 years and doing life and walking the challenges of life of stillness of divorce of loss and yet sharing the incredible victories of success personally and professionally. And vacationing together. It's it's just so rich when we can share life with others and yet it it can be really isolating when not in the contrast and I know my life having shared it with others and being pretty transparent about it.   - Jason Berns Again as you evidenced by this time I've already teared up multiple times I'm pretty emotionally in touch but will not intentionally but will we'll tear up because I care so deeply and that's just part of my makeup and I don't think that would be who I was if I hadn't been through what I went through and been able to see that you know, it's okay for men to cry.   - Jason Berns I know a lot of men who don't feel like that's OK; it wasn't modeled and my dad certainly wasn't like pretty much more than my dad ever did. But there was the freedom to be real that in the victories and in the, the defeats moving forward through that   - Liesel Mertes I've, I've teared up a couple of times listening to you. Did, were there as some of this relates specifically to the working environment, did you find yourself, as your dad's disease progressed, needing to be called away from work to help come and care for him or having to put workplace things aside in a particular way? And how did you communicate that to your organization and the people that you worked with? What did that feel like for you?   - Jason Berns So, I've had three main careers since I graduated high school or college in ninety five. I was an elementary school teacher for seven years and loved it and found it incredibly rewarding and meaningful and I was a tennis pro and running tennis programs around the world and then the last 12 years have been running this real estate business.   - Jason Berns So yes there were times where I needed to be step away and I was fortunate to have understanding principals when I was an elementary school teacher. Sue Wilson and my first all when I was in Santa Barbara and then Lily Ogden when I was in La Canada you and I were both wonderful and I think people got to know my story. I think I wasn't afraid to share it.   - Jason Berns And they knew that my values and my priorities were family was going to be of greater importance to me: God, family, business has always been how I've strove to live my life and was modeled and family needs to come first.   - Jason Berns Now, as the owner of a company I've learned I have work to live that out and encourage that in our in our team members and allowing them to live out that faith and family are of greater importance. Obviously you've got to get the work done and to run a big business. There's there's tasks that need to be done but people need to go be with family because their sickness or illness; being able to be understanding of that as a, as a boss, as a team member, as a I experienced that grace from others and I think that's hugely important to be able to again   - Jason Berns I wanted life to be very black and white. I think I saw things pretty black and white. I still think I think I still has things more black and white. If the reality is there's just so much gray and I think as employer or employee it can often be black and white. We want to see it black and white but it's gray.   - Liesel Mertes So, do you have any words for someone who might be listening and they are right now caring for a parent who is in the midst of something debilitating in their walking that journey again.   - Jason Berns I just I have no regrets from the, the time I did I think it's important to know your own needs and not be afraid to ask that. Ask for your own needs to be met.   - Jason Berns I think as a caregiver, my natural caregiving was to help, support, rescue, I the most obvious example of my and I went through a pretty painful divorce when I got married young to someone who there was lots of a lot and dealt with depression and I thought, well I'll just leave her and I'll help her and all rescue her and that did not work. As a caregiver and someone who gives, I need someone who really gives to me as well. And again, there were lots of other things I didn't mean to put any blame but I, as someone who is a caregiver you need someone who cares for you as well someone who digs into you and it's a support.   - Jason Berns Again it can be pretty overwhelming not knowing how long this how long the caregiving can go. Being willing to ask for help. I'd say get involved in a community of support for my dad and his Parkinson's. One of the things again I learned from watching him was he started these groups with other Parkinson's patients where the other Pakis could speak about what was going on and being able to understand that have that support group where other people who are caregivers are talking to you about the challenges they face other people who are going through the journey of sickness and illness and just a not a real optimistic future looking.   - Jason Berns My dad often gets a lot of the credit for how he lived his life. But who my mom was and standing beside him and loving him who my sister was as his daughter and the way she sacrificed and gave him again as a dad was struggling. He still wanted to ride bikes. And so we got him this three wheel bike and it flags all over just so he could ride his bike to the to the gym and we'd get calls from people across town who would be concerned.   - Jason Berns I saw Don riding across the freeway intersection and he got stuck and yet somehow he still got home enjoy going out and picking him up on this three wheeled bike in the middle of nowhere. And again, it was just sort of dad you just sort of. He needed to have those outlets he needed to have that ability to do that you needed to let him do that.   - Jason Berns But there was also those times of Dad and again he hated it when we wanted him to be safe because in his view being safe isn't there was going to be no quality of life. Yet there was finding that balance of safe and yet risk again.   - Jason Berns Life is gonna throw curveballs and hard stuff at us. But there's so much more purpose in whatever that may be. It's easy for me to say never give up but I think when people saw my dad in his life it spoke a little more powerfully because he to get out of bed to make, make the decision to live for many years was more than most would ever have given. And it would have been easy to just give up. Yet he continued to. And so two of my three girls know him because he fought and Elizabeth Elizabeth Dawn is named after him.   - Jason Berns  You'll know him by her name and by the stories we tell and the lives that have been impacted again after his passing the number of comments and notes of sharing about his life and the purpose he had and the joy that he and my mom exhibited. You just never know. So never give up. I think those would be his words and I will resonate with that. And there is a joy in this journey that is not dependent upon circumstances and we can persevere and get your tribe. Get your people who you can do life w who you can be real with and who aren't afraid of you asking the hard questions on because we need that.   - Jason Berns  We're not called to do life on our own. And relationships are hard. Marriage relationships are hard. Parents parent children relationships are hard work. Relationships are hard. But we've got a pretty strong call to stay reconciled and to be right and there is no greater love than the one that you lay down your life for one another and being able to do that.   - Jason Berns Again some ways that you can see it real transparently what that looks like and other times it's going to be more in the subtleties and I'm thankful for my dad. I'm thankful for my mom I'm thankful for a wife who who gets me and supports me and we get to pass on these lessons to our children and to the children we get to love and Pasadena in Monrovia in India and around the world as we're trying to impact and improve the lives of others through our through our purpose.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing those reflections. And I agree. Don Berns was exceptional. I'm so glad that my life intersected with him. And I'm so thankful that you took time to share about him and his influence in your life today.   - Jason Berns You're welcome. I hope that there is value to those people out there somehow some way.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   A few take-aways emerge after my conversation with Jason.   Community was essential for Jason and his family. In his words, “We are not called to do life on our own.”  The Berns family benefitted from meals deliveries, from men that stepped in to coach basketball teams, and from friends that have been with them to share joy and sorrow over the years.  If you are a friend or a coworker with someone that is a caregiver, don’t shrink back. Consider the ways that you can come alongside them with friendship and meaningful gestures?  If you are a caregiver, what support groups are available in your area for both you and for the person you are caring for?  Find people that will pour into you. At your company, it is alright for people to step back from work as a result of life circumstances? Jason talked about his supportive principals and the way that he now manages his own real estate business.  Jason seeks to model his values of God, family, business and encourages his employees to do likewise.  What values are explicitly or implicitly being modeled in your organization? Faith and hope can be a tremendously important part of what helps men and women survive and thrive in the aftermath disruption.Even in the midst of a relentless disease, Uncle Don maintained this remarkable grit and hopefulness that transcended personality.  He believed that his failing body was not the final reality, he believed that there was more. If you are in the midst of a darkness that seems overwhelming, may a glint of hope find and surprise you today.       OUTRO  

Today, I share a part of my story of loss. Elaine Brenner is my guest host as I move behind the microphone, telling the truth of my collision with death and surgery. As I listened to this episode, I still felt the loss; there is so much more that I would like to tell or share, the ways that Mercy and Moses and pain have impacted and changed me. But I offer this glimpse into my story, hoping it will help you as you live through your own challenge or help a friend through theirs.   11:01 – Liesel Mertes But once you bury your child it's like. Oh there's nothing more to be done. You know there's nothing more to be done and you're just left at the finality of it all. It's hard because I feel like grief is such a profoundly isolating emotion. You know everybody's grief is singular to their experience.   INTRO   Today, my dear friend Elaine Brenner is guest-hosting, interviewing me as I share my story.  I talk about the death of my daughter, Mercy Joan, and the multiple open heart surgeries for Moses.  I consider on the limited tool-kits that we have for grief, the fear of forgetfulness, and releasing myself from the expectation of doing grief “well”.   - Elaine Brenner So tell me a little bit about yourself please. Well how do you spend your days?   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm the mom of four busy young kids. They range in age eleven down to almost five. Moses has a birthday at the beginning part of June. So that's Ada is eleven. Magnus is nine. Jemima is six and Moses is almost five. So, they're busy in their own kind of way. Luke is my husband; we have a rescue dog named Tozer who he's been running away this summer but is hopefully going to replace the battery on his electric collar so hopefully he'll spend a little bit more time at home.   And we love the outdoors. We love hiking around Indianapolis. We're big fans of paddle boarding and kayaking. These are some of the things that we like to do around the city backyard bonfires.   - Elaine Brenner And do you stay at home with the kids? Do you work outside the home?   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I'm in the midst of launching this new entrepreneurial venture. For about the last year or so of which the podcast is one part of it.   What we want to do is to be able to Handle with Care create a software based tool that really helps managers and co-workers be able to know what to say and what to do as people go through disruptive life events. They feel usually pretty overwhelmed and under equipped in that kind of deer in the headlights moment where they say, oh no I have no idea what to say. And to be able to provide like targeted real time instruction of just behaviors that communicate care you know somebody who's come back from a funeral and their manager is going to see them in the next five minutes to be able to watch a little two to four minute micro learning module that says hey here two good things to say here.   Three things that you should never say and they can chance to practice and to be able to go in and then confidently be able to say something that communicates care and that's something that's really missing. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes As I talk with people around town you can just see it in their eyes you know I was with a woman over coffee who's a prominent lawyer here in town and, and she goes:  Oh yeah, you know the year where my mom and my only sibling died within six months of each other and nobody knew what to say or what to do.   So, I think there is I think there is both a market need and a human need.   - Elaine Brenner I think there's a human need outside the workplace too. I don't think there is a lot of expertise or knowledge around what to say what to do how to handle when friends or family go through times like that.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And that I mean most of us have had that experience at least at some point of even you reflect on the comfort that you've just offered and you go Oh my gosh, I said the wrong thing too, shoot.   - Elaine Brenner Yeah yeah. So tell me about your own experiences with the grief where you crossed paths and that same way.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well I didn't really have that many people die or super sad things happen in my youth. I had a grandmother die which was sad but expected until it wasn't really. You know my major intersection with a disruptive life event first happened it was I was getting ready to start a grad program down at the Kelley School and they, they offered me acceptance and a week later I found out that I was unexpectedly pregnant with our third child.   - Elaine Brenner And how old were your first two?   - Liesel Mertes They were three and one, so little at the time, they were little. And I thought that's OK. We can manage it well we'll figure it out. I was even prepared I was gonna lead a student trip to Ghana in the second semester and I remember pitching to the student services and saying, I will have delivered you know this little girl a couple weeks before but I'm sure that she can come I've travelled internationally with babies before like they're super easy. Like, I had a very blithe sort of an idea of how the young having a baby in grad school and all the things I was going to look at that was in 2010 but my 20 week scan they saw that Mercy.   - Liesel Mertes That's what we named her, Mercy. Joan had a pretty profound gall hadn't closed. There's a category called a neural tube defect. So, if it's lower its spinal bifida if it's higher it's anencephaly, which is always terminal. But with this encephalocele, she had this large fluid filled sac on the back of her head and the doctors weren't sure. They said there's a range of outcomes we could be able to do surgery. She could have know mild disabilities all the way to this could be terminal. So, we were meeting with neurosurgeons and hospice and still going like to finance class and traveling out from Bloomington.   - Liesel Mertes  And I had taken care of two small and taking care of two small children. And Luke, Luke was helping. I delivered her on February 15th in 2011 full term full term. And it was it was clear that doing anything would be doing things to her and not for her.   - Elaine Brenner But you didn't know that priority for those 20 weeks you're operating kind of limb right.   - Liesel Mertes Just waiting and her spinal column was hollow and she had this lack of connectivity. She couldn't breathe on her own she had to be intubated right away.   So, so they, they took her and got an MRI right after she was born and they came back and they said you know she's not a candidate for surgery which is horrible. I mean it's horrible. We spent two, she lived most of her days in the hospital. It felt important to not have her be alone. We had we had a family that had come from all across the US. She was always being held we had people take different night shifts and everybody knew that what her diagnosis was. So my sister would play the ukulele for my brother.   - Liesel Mertes  He wanted to show her a clip from Last of the Mohicans because he felt like no, no one should that's an important life experience, just seeing this. And she died after eight days of life. We were able to take her to a home hospice.   - Liesel Mertes And then like you wake up the next morning to your still two living children and you know that the life that extends beyond that moment is   - Elaine Brenner So for you as I've been thinking about this one thing, I wondered there is a particular kind of grief that happens when you're faced with the unknown. For those 20 weeks of maybe it could be mild disability maybe it could be death. And then the grief of post mortem you know post Mercy having died. How did those times differ for you?   - Liesel Mertes That's a good question. As, as she was still in utero you know we had a reason to be hopeful. You could still, I mean I remember like pray and every time going for these scans we had to come up to Indianapolis and thinking like maybem maybe it's possible maybe she could just be, she'll just be right. You know maybe she'd be OK. Which was profoundly disappointing. You know in its own way although, although I didn't necessarily think like it's gonna have you know every time it's like now it's still there.   - Liesel Mertes  Right. Still there. And there's also that time is full of still a lot of like planning and logistics and you figuring out like care for your older children and hospital visit. So, there's something like distracting in its own way of all the things that need to be done. But once you bury your child it's like, oh there's nothing more to be done. You know there's nothing more to be done and you're just left at the finality of it all. It's hard because I feel like grief is such a profoundly isolating emotion.   - Liesel Mertes  You know everybody's grief is singular to their experience. Luke, my husband, um you would want to think you're the other parent like you've shared this thing with me if anyone can get me in this. It should be you. But he was so compromised in his own way that you realize like the support you can offer the other person is really limited. And his grief journey was colored by his own moment. Like, I would have moments where I would feel like I can't do anything I can't go on. I'm so sad.   - Liesel Mertes  And he would feel important for him to be like, no I need to just get a house we've got to do something we need something normal. And like the way that you miss each other in those moments I think it's hard.   – Elaine Brenner I think it's hard in any relationship but especially in a marriage relationship. It has to be hard to allow the other person to do the thing that they need to do. If it is absolutely not the thing that you yes. To be able to grant that like OK this can be your journey.   - Liesel Mertes It also necessitates, I find for me, like finding supportive people who were they can sometimes talk about like circles of grief like people who are most closely impacted and then as you get out then there's like OK family there next and then there's maybe like friends and then there's acquaintances and the further out you are from the circle, like that interior circle, the more you have a capacity to actually offer care because you are not going through your own stuff in the same kind of way.   - Liesel Mertes And there are definitely people that really stepped out for me in that and I realized how much I needed that like I couldn't just if I was just depending on like Luke. You have to be something for me. I would be profoundly disappointed and I would be disappointing. And the question like you asked about their grief afterwards. I was just I was tired.   - Liesel Mertes I'm someone who, something I like about myself as I have a pretty wide capacity to like take on tasks and relationships. I like that I can handle a number of things and to just know in a physical sense like, no I can't, like I can be a fraction in all of these roles of what I was and to set with like I'm not like in my mind I was like I'm not a good daughter right now. And like I'm not a good mom I'm not a good student. Like, compared to what I was I felt like I was, just operating on like, two cylinders and that was more of an internal thing would be like I don't like myself right now.   - Liesel Mertes  All right I feel like I'm such a I like shadow version and to wonder like do other people like being with me because I don't even really like being with me right now.   - Elaine Brenner Well it takes grief takes up so much of the margin in your life capacity wise emotionally physically everything else but there's just so little left right to take on anything else.   - Liesel Mertes Exactly. I was like I'm, I'm so much less, .   - Elaine Brenner  So this really is the best version of myself.   - Liesel Mertes Right. And I don't like, I don't like it and I'm sure you don't like it. Yeah yeah. So.   - Elaine Brenner So what ended up happening from a grad school standpoint? And how did you continue with the program?   - Liesel Mertes I did. So, Mercy was born. I don't know if it was a serendipitous timing. There's never a great time for a child to die but it was right at the beginning of spring break that actually my water broke and I delivered her so is this interesting time in that there was this totally intense week. And then for us, I was in the midst of grief; you just feel things really, there I felt in my experience the things I knew I wanted I wanted very strongly and there were lots of things I didn't know I wanted but it felt really important.   - Liesel Mertes  I was like, we have to get out of town like we have to. So, I called the woman who was, she didn't know me that well, she was my mentor within the program and I said, Can you please use your house in Arizona? And my daughter just died. It's just hard to say no to that. So, we went to Arizona for a week but then we came back and it was time to start the second semester   -  Elaine Brenner And talk about the challenges there.   -  Liesel Mertes I'll step back for a second. Something that was that made that return to what was ostensibly my place of employment easier was actually, I you really I look back in this work that I'm doing and think, I was well met by people there, they um they had a director of Student Services Gayle and Gayle had just, you know, kept her abreast of what was happening but she she showed up like in the hospital room in Indianapolis She had with her a handwritten note from the Dean of the business school and again.   - Liesel Mertes She she said at the time, she said you know, is it would you be OK if I let all of your professors know just so you're not having to explain it all the time. She functioned as something of a point person. She got all the news of like funeral details. I had a number of people for my MBA cohort that showed up actually to the funeral of the Dean of students was there. Gail was there all of which I didn't actually change like the horrible reality that she had died. And it was super hard but it did make me think when it was time to return of like OK.   - Liesel Mertes Like people have seen me. It's not gonna be this orphaned experience but still there were the challenges coming back because I'd been so visibly pregnant and some people had known like that it was kind of a complicated pregnancy other people just knew I was pregnant right. So, I come back and I'm not pregnant. And, of course, you know people are like you had the baby and like they're excited.   - Liesel Mertes Right. And that you know it's just passing in between classes and then is that choice of like, I feel like I have what.  So, it's and it's a strange thing that can happen then you find yourself like managing their response because they're obviously like devastated they thought they were just going to finance class.   – Elaine Brenner Right now I'm the person that asked a woman and child and then you find yourself sometimes uncomfortably.   - Liesel Mertes I mean I had to I had to actually coach myself to not do that because you can get in the mode of being like No it's okay. I know you didn't know.   - Liesel Mertes And then that's like doubly emotionally draining to me. So, I had to be like you know it is not my job to manage them but I mean that was exhausting some way. And some people were like some people did find I just remember one, one woman in the bathroom and I told her and she's trying to care for me and she's just like she's, she's running through her mental database. And when she came on she was like You know I read this this story and I think I was like a Maori tradition that dead children become butterflies.   - Liesel Mertes And she just left it hanging there. I just remember like I wasn't so much I was deeply offended but I was just like, I don't, I don't even know what do I do. To say it and I was like well there's a lot of butterflies this time of year.   - Elaine Brenner Let's get back to class. I got it.    -  Liesel Mertes I decided I was taking a fuller load. I was taking an Excel spreadsheet modeling class that everybody said was like a super great class to take. And I remember, it was like two days before classes were about to start. I remember looking at my schedule being like, I don't have to take that class and I I'm not going I'm not going to take that class. Same thing, the summer internship is a big thing in business school and I'd had it like all lined up I interviewed and I remember taking stock and thinking, you know there are a number of reasons this would be good to do but I don't actually have to..   - Liesel Mertes And that took its own, I mean, I felt for me and wanting to please people and do the right thing it took its own amount of courage to be like, I'm not actually going to definitely I'm not I'm gonna like have some time to be a year to be present with whatever is going to come up so that that summer and that spring like I made time to like, I'm just gonna go for super long walk and be with myself and try to distract myself.   - Elaine Brenner So when I think something that has always, always impressed me about you or I've always noticed about you is your intentionality around grief that I didn't know you at that time but I think I met you pretty shortly after that and the way that you honor your grief and probably your family's grief too. And Mercy and how that even all these years later it's still a mark for you. You know you still come back to it and you honor it. You don't push it away. That was a long time ago. I don't need to worry about it.   - Elaine Brenner  I don't need to feel it but you allow space for it. So, what types of things do you do now that allow you to kind of visit that and give it the space it needs?   - Liesel Mertes So, it is something that we've tried to, to build into our family rhythms to talk purposefully about with our children we wanted to you know that's a that's a that's another like, very broad and important you know conversations like, how do you how do you do that with children?   - Liesel Mertes I've gone through the loss and you know how do I attune myself to their grief was still in the midst of my own and honor that it's been important to talk about with our children our two children that have come after Mercy of understanding like this. She is a part of our family her picture, so we have pictures that are up in our house and a prominent sort of a place some tactile things. My mom, she makes beautiful quilts. She had made to she, she felt just in in her spirit like that she would die. So she, ahead of time, it just felt important to her that we're making these two little quilts to bury Mercy.   And one for me to have so that's still like I'm very prominently atop my desk in my room. So it's important to see things. And that's something that people gave us like different gifts. There was photographers. We have a friend who is, he is very artistic photography is one of his expressions, Mark. And he came down from Chicago to take pictures of Mercy while she was still alive. So I treasure those thinking and to have them.   People give us things like shawls or, we have a box that has like her physical memories in it. And I can't quite bring myself to like, I still I think I have I think I wrote a note on the back of a receipt that I taped to the door in the hospital of like hey I went down to get food. You know if anyone visits but even that like it is just like a physical marker of the time right. Can't quite bring myself to like get rid of this scerawled note that I got the receipt right.   - Liesel Mertes But year in and year out from the time of year February is um, I still feel it like physically in my body the anticipation of it. Those days feel momentous. Luke and I for a while we, we would go away together around that time which was its own mixed bag.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes when you're missing each other then there are years where I feel like I was I just got away by myself. I tried to share this with you not so much about him but about right. I don't know, I never quite know what I need or want right because and I've had to like learn how to release that in an annual way.   - LIesel Mertes So we've tried a number of different things. What I have to release emotionally is that no matter what we do it never feels good like it never feels right. And I can get into this cycle of like   -  Elaine Brenner I haven't quite scratched that itch.   - Liesel Mertes I haven't done it like especially from my personality like I haven't executed well the grief. I want to honor a lot of. And I just it was like I don't know maybe six years ago or seven that I really like it's always gonna feel bad because she's always dead.   - Liesel Mertes That's sad. And like you can't ever get around that like it can be the day that like touch it you know checks all these boxes and I will always feel like exhausted and incomplete because it is incomplete like right then it isn't right. It's not right isn't right. And it feels like   -  Elaine Brenner Cupcakes don't make it right.   -  Liesel Mertes Cupcakes are great right. You get it from a good place. But yeah they they don't touch that reality anymore.   - Elaine Brenner I'm wondering after Mercy died what ways because part of your job was school and part of your job was mom. And so, what ways did you find or looking back do you find that you were missed and those capacities? And did people tell you or did you just intuit it because you're you?   - Liesel Mertes How Mercy's death intersected with aspects of like faith or purpose or who you know I was in the universe or who kind of like those were major themes like me you have something horrible happen. There was a lot of those things called everything into question. And there is a certain way that people of faith can talk about death which can, can feel really packaged and switching. Kind of like cliched and it was out of a number of well-meaning places but like well there's, there's a higher purpose in all this.   -  Elaine Brenner And I made an angel.   -  Liesel Mertes Oh that was one of the worst statements like that God needed an angel just those like pat phrases that I felt like flattened out the reality of like you're seeing me like you just saying a thing even if I might come around and like the thing you're saying like that deliver you right.  It felt abrasive and it felt like there was no great way to respond to that. Like even if I was at a place where I just thought like, That's crazy, you're like you, you can't really say that somebody is dumb.   - Liesel Mertes So you left to the position of just like nodding kind of I and maybe, maybe if I had a little more chutzpah. I think it's I think I would artfully say that now to people who like who I observed saying those things, you know, I might pull him aside after that think, like, I do really want to imply what is being implied in that?   -  Elaine Brenner Right. Yeah. So I think it's it's a lack of those ways and lack of knowing. Again, I think this speaks to the work that you're doing the lack of knowing what to say right in the void of options. People pick the thing that's most palatable to them. What was recently said to them right.   -  Liesel Mertes They have a limited toolkit. Yeah. Like I've got a hammer, I've got a wrench and I've got God has a purpose. So and like, the upside people who did things well I mean I am what I really I didn't even know what I wanted.   - Liesel Mertes I can't even say like I wanted this and people failed. But something that felt meaningful was that people were just like, that's really hard right. I can remember telling someone and, and he was he just drives like that's just one of the worst things I've ever heard. He, he, he dropped an expletive he was like, Yeah. And I felt like resonant in its own way.   You know it is physical gestures. I remember like I'm Mercy died, she died around maybe ten thirty p.m. And then there was this like process wanting to like spend time with her body that felt important and you know we wanted to do things like get footprints or handprints, where you didn't wanna do that while she was alive.   - Liesel Mertes So my mother and father-in-law and I were doing that, but by the time the undertaker came, you know it's such a strange thing you know this person who arrives at like 3:00 in the morning in a black suit. And he came with like a quilt that they put, I have always appreciated even that little attunement. I got him to say waking up the next morning…   - Elaine Brenner And you'd given birth giving birth eight days beforehand. So, all of this like regardless of the outcome you're still a person who has recovery   - Liesel Mertes Um but I remember waking up and you don't even know like having encounter that day and my sister came downstairs just kind of silently with an English muffin. And I was like, yeah, I do just like one in English you to eat and eat um and, and especially in the immediacy, like people showed up to clean my house or detail my car right give us gift certificates. Easter was not so long after and I just felt horrible, it felt horrible to be doing like Easter. I felt horrible, like the weather was crummy and, you know, we had an MCL gift certificate which at least I was like, well at least we can get something that's you know we can eat.   - Liesel Mertes So those, those physical gestures felt like deeply meaningful and right it somebodies frames couldn't quite hit the mark.   – Elaine Brenner So and talking about those kinds of gestures and talk about say the ensuing months were there things that people did. You've talked about Gail and Mark from student services and the photographer to me. Those things strike me as things that only that person was able to do or that that person specifically was able to do maybe that, you know, Gail couldn't have shown up and taking great photographs you know. So what were things, what are the things that stand out now as you look back over the ensuing months that people did to support you that were unique or specifically very helpful?   - Liesel Mertes That question makes me think of people who gave out of there, like you said, people came out of a specific skill set, like the person in detail my car and I'm like, he was just really good at cleaning out cars. So, he felt like, you should have this. I could do it. You should have a clean car when you drive to the funeral, which I never would have thought of asking for.   - Liesel Mertes I didn't I, I in my mind, didn't think I cared about my floorboards and I probably didn't you know notice that but to, to ask yourself, what what am I good at doing that I can give freely because sometimes people offer help to people in grief like, let me know if there's anything I can do and what if someone says to you I'd like for you to watch my children and you think I hate children and   -  Elaine Brenner You don't want me to watch your children.   -  Liesel Mertes Right. So, to be able to think specifically like, I am really great at mowing the lawn and I do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays.   – Elaine Brenner Well plus, I say the hard thing about when someone says, let me know what I can do I'll do anything. Then you're just putting the onus back on the person that you know barely has the energy to shower much less put together the schedule that they have or whatever.   - LIesel Mertes Exactly so to be able to do it what you can offer meals were great. As I as I said we were living in Bloomington. So, there were people who drove down you know the like clean our house. I. It was later, I mean Mercy died in February, by Christmas time that you know even that next Christmas time, I felt still it's like such a low ebb. My mom was like, I'm going to decorate your house for Christmas like, which was great. I always appreciated people checking in. I think sometimes there is this fear of like if I bring this up you're gonna be sad.   - Liesel Mertes  And I remember even, you know, just my, my business school classmates who would who would ask like, hey you know, how are you doing with your sadness? And even to the level of people who were insightful enough to say, I know this can be like hard on your marriage how are you doing with you and Luke. And there were sometimes that I didn't want to talk about that like that's also it's good to ask those questions.   - Liesel Mertes You also should be prepared that sometimes people want to talk about that and sometimes they might not and not be offended and be like, you didn't want to I asked you this. So, people who can like take that with an open hand. And also, I think something that was helpful was like there were times where I was I was just doing my work like I was facilitating conversation or preparing for a presentation and like doing a good job and to be able to just recognize that like you did a really good job in that presentation. I think for me and a lot of people you you can doubt your competence and capacity. So for people that come alongside and be like that's a great point.   - Elaine Brenner So you then had Moses and the experience with Moses could potentially have been similar. So talk about that a little bit.   - Liesel Mertes Well so, it's this totalizing thing to have a child that we knew when I have children after Mercy. Jemima was our next little baby. She's delightful she's almost seven. Thankfully, I actually didn't feel like that was a pregnancy that was overshadowed by a lot of apprehension or fear. It could have been it just wasn't, in my experience. There was something that I felt was different with Moses. We were we were going to go on vacation over with, with extended family over New Year's. And I remember feeling as we were down on this beach just thinking like, and I had a 20 week scan coming up in January and just the sense of, I just, for whatever reason, like I can't wait for that to be over. And it was just this like kind of like hang, hanging I haven't felt that with Jemima, I just want it to be past that in a roundabout way. That felt like aspect of confirmation as we went in. And once you've had a complicated pregnancy, they tend to take you for a more in-depth scan and that the doctors were up in Indianapolis. They said it's a boy.   And um and they left and Luke and I had maybe five minutes of sitting there and we actually said to each other isn't it so great to be in this space so many people are getting such hard news. Isn't it great. Just not. And look we're going to have sons; he'd always wanted a brother. So this was gonna be the second boy. And so, then that moment where the doctor comes back to tell us about Moses his heart condition, which is unrelated in any way to what Mercy had to say.   He's he's entirely missing one of his valves. Tetralogy of fallot with pulmonary atresia. It's, it's different in the last 30 years what they can do with the heart is staggering, that I heard someone say I think was my father. The brain is much more like a complex computer. If something goes wrong with that, you know just the impact is huge and very complex. Whereas the heart is much more it's like a pump, you know and how they show this condition actually and Riley specifically is a fantastic hospital doctor John Brown pioneered some of the cutting edge procedures and he was Mo’s surgeon.   So all those aspects of prognosis were better. You know if you're going to paint a rosy picture of like, well this is better   -  Elaine Brenner But 20 week scan 20 week scan.   -  Liesel Mertes Right. Right. And the horrible thing of just being confronted again with like there's something I can't control for my child and I'm so sad about that. I didn't, somebody could very legitimately feel like, why me like I, that actually, I felt occasional aspects of that but it was more this sense of like, oh I've stepped in the world of now like I've heard so many stories like this complicated things wrong miscarriages disabilities young children dying. If anything it felt like, it is a crapshoot. And totally random. Why not me again.   -  Liesel Mertes It's a different journey with surgeries and medical intervention and preparing, you know Moses had his first surgery when he was six days old so I remember like, again, delivering a baby. We couldn't even be in the same hospital; he was taken by ambulance I delivered him at Methodist he had to be taken by ambulance to a different hospital down the road with Luke. So, we're not even in the same building. I'm having to get chauffeured over there by taxi. He's gonna have surgery five days five or six days later.   So I'm figuring out like logistics for my other kids. Magnus is having preschool graduations. I'm three days postpartum bringing cupcakes to Magnus and then going to Riley where Moses is in surgery and just all of these like moving parts. And Moses has had subsequent surgeries, he's had a couple of catheterizations and few open heart surgeries. The support around our family of like preparing for surgery again. Meals, help with children. Something that was so particular is we have had a group of people who have stayed with Moses through the night at the hospital. You Elaine are one of those lovely people because we can’t stay 24 hours.   -  Elaine Brenner But I think that speaks to your again your ability to kind of honor what the needs are in the moment because I think there are many people who certainly could benefit from having people around them do that and probably have the people around them willing to do that. I mean I know I felt both I don't know. Honored and sort of special that you would trust me to stay with this baby you know and in the hospital and while you could sleep and liking to be asked and liking to be able to do it. But I think there are a lot of people who don't know themselves well enough to know that they would need it or even if they know it feel that they couldn't write well   -  Liesel Mertes And maybe, maybe that circles around to like I don't remember ever feeling shamed by asking for help although that was a fear right. Like, I think if anybody would have done that to me it could have caused significant shut down like, if somebody had met me and been like why do you need. Like, shouldn't you be with your baby through night.   Which maybe gets to like the importance of healthy people if somebody does actually ask try not to make them feel like a burden. I can have its own, but yeah I feel like people honored that and it was super helpful and important. And then there's, like you just need this new support in the aftermath of you know like after heart surgery he, you're kind of homebound for a while because he can't get sick. He can't go out. So, having people come and visit and or take the other children out there are people who is a great thing to be able to do.   We had people friends of my parents who they've taken upon themselves that anytime Mo’s having surgery like they're going to bring a bunch of food to the waiting room because we're usually there through lunch.   I think you've been there and so you know I think in the past we've gone. Indian food delivered or brisket. It was great like the last time we had this fantastic barbecue and the physicians came out these this surgeon and the attending surgeon and they gave us the news and it was this gift that we've been given to have food but we're able to actually extend that to them. Dr. Brown would you like to have some? Yes he does. I'd like to do that before. So there's things that we're good.   I like cards; I like it when people check in. You didn't ask this, but I think sometimes, especially people who are far away and they wonder how they can be supportive. I've had friends likes and Starbucks gift cards or just emails and I always appreciate that.   -  Elaine Brenner So do you think your experience with Mercy when you got the news about Moses. Were there things that you thought you know. Again not not the same but you were sort of dealing with that limbo feeling of, of what's going to happen here and just the grief of I know this isn't going to be smooth sailing from here on out. So were there things when you got the news about Moses that you thought, OK I know I need to handle this differently I know I need to do this?   -  Liesel Mertes Yeah I think that I, I feel very refreshed by being outside by moving like to be in like to go on a walk or to be on a trail run or paddle board feels it's something that fills my cup in particular ways. So, I think I knew that about myself in a different way. That's, that's not a selfish thing. That's an important thing. So, I should honor that. I think I knew I knew more about that stage of life how I, I wanted a community of people that were like in it.   I had realized actually that to be able to talk about your struggles or the hard things actually I had found opened up a vulnerability in other people. And like, they move towards me and support, like I had found, whether that was in a women's study group that I was in or just like friends at that stage of life had actually been a really true way of connecting. So, so I was much more comfortable like putting that out there and expecting that people would meet me right.    - Liesel Mertes I, even though we anticipated it. I mean, it's hard on your marriage and there's a reason statistically, I mean, people will quote anywhere from 60 to 80 percent of marriages where a child dies end in divorce. And it was, even though I anticipated it would again, be super hard and stressful in my marriage in a way that you know, we've, we've had to revisit in subsequent an important marriage counseling. And even, even like knowing that I would actually say that the stress of there was the stress of Moses but like the stress that it was in my marriage and in my relationships only like compounded and exacerbated that I don't evenm, I mean maybe if we had had better self-knowledge and counseling prior to that we'd had counseling but yeah, I'm sure it was impactful. We've had more targeted better counselling since then.   -  Liesel Mertes I wish that could have been different, but it almost felt like inevitable because for both Luke and I so value our parenting. You know, we will take our stress out on your kids, but there is this sense of like, I am so stressed out there's so many things I shouldn't take it out on my children I'm gonna really try hard not to. And they're just relentless. Children are relentless. They, they kind of know, they kind of have a sense but they just need a lot because they're kids. And so, you can spend all day keeping it in check and trying to do a good job. But then when it comes to the other adult in the household if they need anything or step out of line it can feel so like deeply offensive like you to like how great you need something or how could you drop the ball.   And that is its own, you know I don't want to be that way in any of my relationships like that begrudging of like, there's no space for you to be weak but in a roundabout way, like that would be the outplay of it. So, I wish I could have been different. I'm, I'm glad that we weathered it enough but that was like a painful aspect of something that even I could see coming. But almost like it couldn't stop the train right because it was so immediate.   - Elaine Brenner You're just surviving better.   - Liesel Mertes We don't do that as much. But then again, we don't have a child like in medical crisis. And our kids are a little older. It changes it.   -  Elaine Brenner So so, given that now you've gone through these two in some way similar but very different kind of grief inducing experiences, what insights do you have to share with someone else going through something similar?   - Liesel Mertes It's going to be really hard. It's just really sad, especially if it's touching on the health of your children. I mean it is. You never think that you would have to bury a child is horrible, horrible. It's universally recognized as horrible.   I, I felt, you know for me again like God and purpose, like I felt God as gentle towards me in the midst of that. And especially like there are people that might encounter like someone might be listening and you might not have a great community you might be surrounded by people who are like rushing you or don't have time for your sadness. And that's really hard. I hope that people can be gentle with themselves to allow themselves the space to be like a day might be full of so many complicated emotions.   You know, you might be like sad detached happy over like, in the space of an hour and just, like give yourself the space to have grief be messy and nonlinear. But I have also experienced that there were chapters like beyond the immediacy of that grief. And that's not to paint some rosy picture like oh it's all gonna be better because I mean sometimes it's worse or different but just that like it will not it will not feel the same as it does right now.   - Liesel Mertes Knowing, knowing things that are life giving you might not know much. You might only know like I love eating french bread right now. Or like I just I really need to go for a walk or you know I, if, if you know it like, it's good to pay attention to your gut and what is leading you in. And that there's like, I don't know there's different ways to carry it. There is a hardness but also a sweetness to like…I, I am, over the years like integrating Mercy a lot more into my life. But like my, I think that fear is like, that this person will be forgotten like no one might, my child will fade.   I don't know. I don't even have something like that a real thing. But I find, year in and year out like, she continues to be an important part of our, our family and our, I think and this is like a roundabout way for, for anyone who is in a caregiving position like, you work with someone or you care for them, that that with a child who has died like that is a real fear:  no one, one I will.   I, I mean, I was even feeling this last year. It is important to be able to carry that memory with them, you know, if you're someone that remembers their name and they remembers their birthday that is willing to speak that it's always meaningful to me.   - Liesel Mertes It like, even people who, you know, maybe they read like the blog I was keeping at the time and they told me years later and it feels like, well it feels like one more way that Mercy is made real in the world. But even this last year I was I was reflecting on my, my parents died, like I was picturing myself as an 80 year old woman, should I live that long. And I was like, right now my kids like, I take them to remember Mercym like we do things but I'll probably be living their whole lives like when they're in their 50s or 60s like, will this day still be important to them?   Like I hope they still remember, but like my mom will be dead, my dad will probably be dead. You know, all these people. And I was like, I'm going to be like celebrating Mercy's birthday all by myself. So, I called to my sister, I was like well you do like little road trips with me? We could do that because from your entire life know that might still be the case but I'd love to just hope that I have the necessary resilience to deal with that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   It is a particular thing to really listen to and reflect on your own story. I can hear some themes that remain the same over the years and others that have shifted and changed with time. We are always in the process of becoming alongside of our stories.  But for today, here are a few key takeaways that I have, after listening to my story.    When you offer help to someone that is hurting, give specific examples of ways you want to help instead of a vague, “Just let me know if you need anything.” This statement puts the pressure of imagining tasks and organizing logistics back on the grieving person and sets you up for failure if they ask you to do something that you can’t or don’t want to deliver on. Be purposeful and careful with your language around purpose and meaning, especially well-meaning clichés. Take a moment to pause before you speak.  Trite turns of phrase are rarely comforting and often hurtful.  Instead, offer a hug or a sincere, “I am so sorry you are going through this.”  You don’t have to make meaning for a person that is hurting. A real fear for parents of dead children is that their child will be forgotten. Take time to write down important dates like birthdays.  Remember the parents around Mother’s or Father’s Day. Take time to say the child’s name or ask the parent to share a memory.  These acts of attention and intention are so meaningful.   OUTRO

Disruptive life events linger; they cast a long shadow. Years afterwards, you can still be surprised by sadness or fear. Magnus knows about living with pain and uncertainty; his sister died when he was just one year old and his younger brother has needed multiple heart surgeries. Magnus shares about how pain can bring us closer to people, what kids really want from their parents, and how a note or a song can be a powerful gift to those experiencing sadness.   – Magnus Mertes He was born at Methodist but he had heart troubles so they had to quickly get him over to Riley because Methodist never had the equipment. So he was taken into Riley Children's Hospital, I remember when I heard about it I felt a little shaky inside and I thought, am I going to lose another sibling?   INTRO   Today, we finish our three-week miniseries on childhood disruption.  Over the last two episodes, we have considered how disruption particularly affects children.  By extension, we are also talking about the adults that care for them. If a parent goes through disruption, whether that is a divorce or a move or a death, they are also interpreting and explaining and shepherding their child.  I know, from my own story, how important and exhausting this role can be.    I hope that these reflections help in three potential ways.   They help you better companion the children in your life that have experienced or are right now experiencing disruption.If you don’t remember, childhood can be hard.  There are scraped knees and neighborhood bullies.  Someone is always deciding when you go to bed and what you have to eat for dinner.  Now, factor in a divorce or a cancer diagnosis.  It can all feel pretty overwhelming, for both kids and adults.   These episodes help you show more empathy to friends and coworkers that are parenting children through seasons of disruption.These adults are not only managing their own sadness and exhaustion, they have little people that are looking to them for direction and guidance…and that is a really particular burden to carry.     Maybe these reflections help you to encounter your own childhood disruptions through a different light, to reflect on the ways that you were met or missed and how that empathy (or lack of empathy) might still be affecting you now.   Magnus Mertes is my guest today.  Magnus was only seventeen months old when his younger sister, Mercy Joan, was born. Mercy had a birth defect called an encephalocele, the base of her skull did not close and she only lived for eight days.  Magnus held Mercy, stroked her face, and ate bananas at her funeral.  A few years later, a younger brother, Moses, was born. Moses has had to undergo multiple open heart surgeries over the last five years.  Magnus talks about what it has been like to live under this shadow of death in today’s episode.    Magnus loves to laugh.  He is a good friend, creative, sporty, he loves to draw and tells a great story.        - Liesel Mertes So tell me a little bit about yourself.   - Magnus Mertes So I'm Magnus and I have had a little sister pass away, great Uncle pass away. Yeah I've had some kind of hard things throughout my life.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah you have. And we're going to talk about some of that today. But how about you tell me a little bit just about you as a 9 year old. What are the things that you really like?   - Magnus Mertes Well my favorite sports are football and soccer and my favorite book series is Lord Of The Rings and I really like playing outside and being with family.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. You do. What grade are you in this year?   - Magnus Mertes I'm in fourth grade, Miss Wilson's class.   - Liesel Mertes And tell us about what's coming up this week that's really exciting for you.   - Magnus Mertes This week is my very first track meet and it is also my birthday.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned you've had a couple of hard things happen. Tell me about your little sister, Mercy.   - Magnus Mertes So when my sister was born, and she was three and I was 1, my mom got pregnant and I felt so excited like, I was going to have a little sister. But then, when the diagnosis came in that she would have some troubles, I just felt really down because I didn't want her to die. And when she was born, I felt so happy and I thought, oh she's going to live through this. She is. And I only got a short time with her, only eight days, and then she passed away in my mother's arms at my grandma's house yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Do you remember much about how you were feeling at that stage or how you feel as you remember it now?   - Magnus Mertes I feel right now, You feel sad because I really would have liked her to have been here, no offense my little sister Jemima, but I felt like I would have liked to have another sister in the house   - Liesel Mertes Yeah I know that it affected some of how you've thought about death. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?   - Magnus Mertes Yeah I was kind of affected the, I feel like when we die when I feel like you go up to heaven and there's just this blooming city of gold. And when I was little I used to imagine that I would meet Abraham Lincoln there yeah.   - Magnus Mertes I also really. Why. The thought of how we're going to be made again made me feel really good inside and made me feel cozy.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What. Tell me a little bit about Moses and what has happened with him and how that has made you feel.   - Magnus Mertes Well, Moses. I always wanted a little brother, one I could play with. And when I saw him for the first time, I just, went over and just couldn't keep my eyes off him and I thought my head, This is my little brother now. But he was born at Methodist but he had heart troubles so they had to quickly get him over to Riley because Methodist never had the equipment. So he was taken into Riley Children's Hospital remember when I heard about it I felt a little shaky inside and I thought, am I going to lose another sibling?   - Magnus Mertes But I felt really great when his doctor, Ben Ross, felt really great that they were able to do they're able to take out one of his organs and replace it with a cow organ. And now we kind of joke around like he's the only person in family whose 1 percent cow.   - Liesel Mertes This is an ongoing joke in the family.  And, in the interest of accuracy, Moses’ doctor is actually the immensely talented Dr. John Brown at Riley Children’s Hospital.  He pioneered this procedure called a bovine tricuspid valve. Basically, a particular valve is harvested from the neck of a cow and is now keeping Moses alive.  Hence, he is “part cow”.   - Liesel Mertes We do joke about that. Are there things that have scared you or made you worried about getting sick or dying? What has that been like?   - Magnus Mertes So, one time I got a concussion and I felt like really, really, really scared because sometimes, concussions can be fatal. They can damage your brain in all sorts of ways and there's this famous boxer who died of concussion. And I was so scared at that time.   - Magnus Mertes Other times. On Memorial Day 2018, there's a huge log that was on the White River that just toppled over and like it was stuck there and I decided since it was making all these rapids and we were getting blown away by them in front of the log. I decided to go up around the back and float down and have a little bump fall and get pushed away. But what happened was when I got there right next to the log about a meter away I got sucked under by an undertow and I was just sucking, sucking, sucked and my life jacket that neared on a branch. Those like factor for about three seconds and my mind was, I was thinking, OK I'm going to drown, I'm going to drown, a minute I'm good I'm going to drown. But then what happened, it was like a miracle because that part snagged ripped off, that was pushed the way that my life jacket cause you know how they are, they pop you right up. Once I got out of the undertow about, 14 seconds later, I popped back up and I felt so relieved. But then I heard I saw of it. My older sister Ada and her friend, Scout's, face. They were like so worried and I went over and I said, What's wrong? They said Moses followed you. He got sucked under. And then I thought, Oh no no no no. This almost happened to him, he almost just died when he was a little boy. He almost died. I don't want him to die; I don't want my little brother to die. And he was under for about thirty two seconds after that and I felt so, so scared they drowned. Then finally, the same thing happened to him. It snared and then he popped right back up and I felt so, so overwhelmed with joy and happiness and relief that he didn't drown. And I just felt like God did the miracle for us yeah.   - Liesel Mertes That's a scary story. I'm so glad you guys were OK.   This story captures my attention for two reasons.  First, it horrifies me because I and three other grown-ups were standing right next to the river, eating oranges and chatting, and we didn’t have any idea what was happening.  That is how fast these childhood traumas can happen.  In Magnus’ story, I also hear the immediacy of his fear and anxiety…and the reality that disruptive life events don’t fit into neat, discreet boxes.  The river, the surgery, the threat of death, they all cascade into each other.       - Liesel Mertes Do you find that, like do you talk about Mercy much with your friends or with teachers at school?   - Magnus Mertes Like, with my best friends who, like Sebastian Falconi. Yeah, I'd tell them about it.   - Magnus Mertes Because I feel like I've gotten a good friendship with them and that they tell me about stuff. Like my friend, his parents got a divorce yes. So he it felt really, really hard on him. And I comforted him through that. And then later I told him that Mercy died and he, he just said, like, wow, you've been through the same stuff as I've been through this. Yeah. And that helped our relationship and now we're best buds.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What are things, when you tell people, what are things that are really helpful that they say to you or help you with?   - Magnus Mertes Last year, when I got my concussion, what happened was, when I was in my bed in a dark room, my mom opened the door and said I got a visitor. And it turned out to be one of my friends, Forrest, who was actually there when I passed out and he came there. He wrote an encouraging note to me and I kept that hidden in my bed. And every day I would read it and I would think, I can get through this.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things that grownups do or that are helpful to you when you're feeling sad or scared about Mercy or about Moses or about anything?   - Magnus Mertes So when I was afraid of death, my mom would play a song that I really liked called High Noon by Andrew Peterson and it just helped me feel really good, I feel really good and think that God knows what's going to happen to me and he's taking care of me and he loves me.   - Liesel Mertes You tell me a little bit more about that being afraid of death. What was that like?   - Magnus Mertes So, being afraid of death. I can get, like, a shiver down my spine that I would have to like leave my family and my siblings my Nana and Pa. And in fact, my great grandma and June, she was put in the hospital at age 92 for pneumonia and I felt scared, really really scared, and luckily she recovered and she's in a nursing home now. She recovered but she's really weak.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Is there anything that you feel like grown ups don't understand about kids when they're sad?   - Magnus Mertes I feel like kids. They get like depressed and it really like breaks them up and they say like, nothing's wrong, but like, I don't think parents understand that when they say it like that, that now they just kind of like leave them alone. But what they mostly need is to engage and be comforted   - Liesel Mertes Sure. If there's somebody listening who is going through some of the hard things that you've gone through. Do any words of wisdom or encouragement that you'd give them?   - Magnus Mertes I would say that you guys can do this that you guys, and if you're going through a rough time, I'm sorry that you're going through them but just know that God is going to help you and he's going to give you the best thing that he can do possible.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways that I have after my conversation with Magnus   Magnus reflected that sometimes, kids say that nothing is wrong when bad things happen. Parents, in response, will just leave them alone.  In Magnus’ words, “what they mostly need is to engage and be comforted.”  This is a good reminder, for both kids and adults, that people crave the support of relationship and community when disruption comes.  Don’t overlook the pain and the process of young children. Magnus was only seventeen months old when Mercy died.  And he was in preschool when Moses was born.  In the midst of our overwhelming pain, it would have been all too easy to overlook Magnus, to think that he was too young to process what was going on…to just hope that he would be fine. Yet, these experiences have profoundly shaped him. Music can be a great form of comfort for adults and children. There have been times where the fears were so big and words found their limits.  During those times, we found that it was really helpful to have a playlist of meaningful songs that he could listen to that helped to ground and reassure him.    OUTRO    

A hug, a nap, a kind word: each of these actions can be really helpful for those that are going through hard times. Jemima Mertes, age 6, shares these insights and more on this episode of Handle with Care. Jemima is no stranger to sadness. As she speaks about her safe place, breathing techniques, and how to remember well, Jemima offers wisdom for anyone walking with a child through tumult as well as for those that support parents during times of disruption.   - Jemima Mertes I get kinda get all sad in my stomach and then my eyes get watery. I think sometimes I say that kinda because I'm kind of feeling sad about Mercy but I don't want to admit it.   - Liesel Mertes Why don't you want to admit it?   - Jemima Mertes Cause I'm kinda scared. I don't know why.   INTRO   Today, we continue our miniseries on childhood disruption.  If you missed our last episode, we are talking about how disruption affects children.  By extension, we are also talking about the adults that care for them.  If a parent goes through disruption, they are also interpreting and explaining and shepherding their child.  I know, from my own story, how important and exhausting this role can be.    I hope that these reflections help in three potential ways.   They help you better companion the children in your life that have experienced or are right now experiencing disruption.  If you don’t remember, childhood can be hard.  There are scraped knees and neighborhood bullies.  Someone is always deciding when you go to bed and what you have to eat for dinner.  Now, factor in a divorce or a cancer diagnosis.  It can all feel pretty overwhelming, for both kids and adults. These episodes help you show more empathy to friends and coworkers that are parenting children through seasons of disruption.These adults are not only managing their own sadness and exhaustion, they have little people that are looking to them for direction and guidance…and that is a really particular burden to carry. Maybe these reflections help you to encounter your own childhood disruptions through a different light, to reflect on the ways that you were met or missed and how that empathy (or lack of empathy) might still be affecting you now.   My guest today is Jemima Mertes, my six (almost seven year old) daughter. Before she was born, Jemima’s older sister, Mercy, died at just eight days old.  Jemima is the child born after our great loss.  Jemima has also experienced real-time sadness.  Her younger brother, Moses, has had numerous open heart surgeries.  Jemima has been my hospital companion, coming along to cardiologist visits and holding Moses’ hand during blood draws.  She exudes care and comfort.  Jemima is the one that always remembers to pack snacks for sporting events, bringing extra applesauce and Cliff bars just in case someone else gets hungry too. She is not readily overwhelmed, steady and competent and deeply attentive to the needs of others.     - Liesel Mertes So, tell us your name and how old you are.   - Jemima Mertes My name is Jemima Mertes and I am six years old.   - Liesel Mertes What grade will you be in next year?   - Jemima Mertes First grade.   - Liesel Mertes Jemima, tell us some of your favorite things to do. What do you really like?   - Jemima Mertes I like watching movies. I like going to the store. I like swimming. I like going on slip and slides.   - Liesel Mertes Totally. Do you have any favorite foods?   - Jemima Mertes  i like pizza. I like popcorn. I like ice cream. I like M&Ms. I like candy.   - Liesel Mertes And tell us about where you fit in your family. Who are your siblings?   - Jemima Mertes Magnus, Moses, Ada, Mercy.   - Liesel Mertes And who is Mercy?   - Jemima Mertes My baby...uh, my older sister.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about her.   - Jemima Mertes She lived only for eight days. She had a big bump on the back of her skull inside her skull was cracked in two pieces and   - Liesel Mertes What happened to her?   - Jemima Mertes She died.   - Jemima Mertes Yeah. How did you hear about her dying? When do you first remember becoming aware that you had a sister who died?   - Jemima Mertes I don't know.   - Liesel Mertes What is it like being a sister to a sister who died?   - Jemima Mertes Kinda sad.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Tell me more about that.   - Jemima Mertes Cause you can't really play with them and you kind of think of them feel sad.   - Liesel Mertes What are times that make you feel sad?   - Jemima Mertes  When I get hurt   - Liesel Mertes When you get hurt. When you think about Mercy, when you talk about times when you're sad about Mercy, what are some of those times like?   - Jemima Mertes Uh, it kind of feels sad and I kind of cry a little bit.   - Liesel Mertes Are there certain times of year where that happens more than others?   - Jemima Mertes Mostly when I am in school.   - Liesel Mertes  What is it like when that happens in school?   - Jemima Mertes Kind of sad, but my teacher helps me.   - Liesel Mertes How does your teacher help you?   - Jemima Mertes She makes me feel better, gives me a hug.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Anything else she does to help you?   - Jemima Mertes She sometimes gives me a snack.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, snacks can be really helpful, can't they?   - Liesel Mertes You've been talking lately, you've said, "Sometimes I just feel like crying and I don't know why." What does that feel like for you?   [00:04:24.560] I guess kinda get all sad in my stomach and then my eyes get watery. I think sometimes I say that kinda because I'm kind of feeling sad about Mercy but I don't want to admit it.   - Liesel Mertes Why don't you want to admit it?   - Jemima Mertes Cause I'm kinda scared. I don't know why.   - Liesel Mertes When you get really upset about something, how does it feel on your insides?   - Jemima Mertes  My brain kind of gets, my brain kind of makes me eyebrows go down on my eyes. And you kind of start shaking. And then my hands kind of want to move a lot and so do my legs.   - Liesel Mertes What are some things that are important for you to do to remember Mercy? Are there are things that are important as a family that we do?   - Jemima Mertes Yeah we go, we sometimes go places for her birthday. We go to Great Wolf Lodge for her birthday sometimes. And we also go to her grave and I like taping stuff on it was kinda funny when that picture blew off the grave and then Daddy had to hop on it.   - Liesel Mertes I remember that you put a picture on her grave and it like blew away didn't it? I remember that   - Jemima Mertes It was a picture that I had made with hearts and squares.   I like it that Jemima can laugh at this funny memory from the gravesite:  we were trying to tape lovingly handmade pictures on Mercy’s grave on one particularly blustery afternoon when a blast of wind caught a picture and sent it spinning.  Luke had to run a good fifty yards in hot pursuit and make a diving leap.  It was hilarious.  And we strike this balance as a family:  how to remember Mercy well without too much heaviness.  My father remembers having to go to his mother’s grave on every holiday as a child, how oppressive the cemetary felt in his starched suit.  I don’t want that for my kids.  We try to have visits remain short, they are allowed to roam and explore.  When we lived further south, sometimes Ada or Magnus would just ask to drop in after school for a casual visit.  Another thing that we do as a family is to try to do something really fun in honor of Mercy during February.  We have spent a couple of years going to Great Wolf Lodge, riding waterslides and eating pizza, so that Mercy is more than just a graveyard presence.    - Liesel Mertes What do you what makes you most sad when you think about Mercy?   - Jemima Mertes I don't know.   - Liesel Mertes What do you wish that you got to do with her?   - Jemima Mertes Play. Get to go on the slip and slide with her.  Get to go to Great Wolf Lodge with her.  Watch movies with her.   - Liesel Mertes Do your friends know that you had a sister who died?   - Jemima Mertes Yeah, I sometimes tell them. I don't really want to cause kind of makes me feel sad.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. What did they do when you told them?   - Jemima Mertes  Say, Oh I'm sorry. And one day when I said, for announcements, this was the day my sister died, yeah, they were like, I said death day and they were like, what's a death day?    - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Did you tell them more about it?   - Jemima Mertes  Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes And how was that?   - Jemima Mertes Uh, good.   I want to interject an observation.  I am thankful that Jemima felt comfortable letting her teacher and her friends know about Mercy and her death day.  I think that it can be difficult for children to find the space to bring up their sibling that died. Mercy is very much a part of our family. Even as a grown-up, I can find it feels socially complex to bring up my dead daughter.  At what point in relationship is it appropriate to let you know about this integral person that died, this little girl that has shaped so much of my story?  If I reel that, my children probably feel it too.  So, a few years ago, we decided to host a birthday party for Mercy Joan. Ada, Magnus, Jemima, and Moses all invited friends.  There was cake and a showing of Big Hero 6.  We wanted to provide the children with space to introduce their friends to the reality of Mercy in a way that felt organic.  I hope it helped…   - Liesel Mertes We were talking about Mercy, but you've also had another one of your siblings who has had some hard times with their health. Who's that and what's wrong with them?   - Jemima Mertes Moses. He has a heart problem.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And with Moses what has had to happen for him?   - Jemima Mertes He's had to have his bones cracked open and fix up his heart and have wires to patch up his heart.   - Liesel Mertes What has that been like for you as his sister?   - Jemima Mertes Kinda scary. I like when I get to visit him.   - Liesel Mertes You go to the hospital and visit him?   - Jemima Mertes Yeah, I like getting sometimes ice cream and I like having fun with him cause I don't really get to see him when he's in surgery and I like watching movies with him in his bed.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah you're really good at watching movies with him on his bed. How does it make you feel, as his sister, when he has to have surgeries or more tests?   - Jemima Mertes Very scary. Cause I don't know what's gonna happen, what they're gonna say.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, is there anything that helps you when you feel scared like that?   - Jemima Mertes Kind of breathing in and out..   - Liesel Mertes Totally. That breathing a great thing to do. Anything else that helps you?   - Jemima Mertes You smile, take a breath, and relax.   - Liesel Mertes I like that   - Jemima Mertes I have a lot of breathing I can do.    - Liesel Mertes Did they teach you that at school? Yeah they do I like that.   - Jemima Mertes And also going to bed makes me feel better.   - Liesel Mertes Oh. Going to bed can make me feel super better when I have hard times too.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us about your safe spot.   - Jemima Mertes My safe spot is a place I made out of wood, blankets, and straps.  I put the stuff in it, like putty, that I can use when I am really angry and then I can remake the stuff and keep ripping it.    Sometimes the emotions of childhood are so very big and scary.  The anger, the sadness can seem totalizing.  This is why we helped Jemima build her safe spot. It is a place she can go when she feels flooded by emotion.  As she mentioned, she has some meaningful objects in her safe spot.  Pictures and thing that calm her, paper to write on, a calculator (she loves math) and putty.  Putty by request.  Jemima found that she could tear and destroy putty when she was really angry, but, unlike other objects, it could be put back together again.  Especially in a busy house with four children, I have really appreciated how the space spot gives her a physical space that is out of the way to regulate and return.    - Liesel Mertes I think sometimes grown ups don't really know how to help kids when they've gone through a hard time. What are good ways that your friends could help you or that grown ups could help you?   - Jemima Mertes They can tell you it's OK and sometimes give you snacks and give you a hug.   - Liesel Mertes Anything else that helps you?   - Jemima Mertes I don't know   - Liesel Mertes Anything else that grownups should know about kids?   - Jemima Mertes That they love candy   MUSICAL TRANSITION   A few reflections on my time with Jemima   There is great power to a tasty snack, a warm hug, and a good night’s rest for both adults and children. Providing children with a safe spot can help with unruly emotions. Putty can be a great resource; Jemima found particular comfort in a tactile expression for her large emotions.  There are also companies like Generation Mindful that provide Time-In Toolkits.  I am including their information and a link to our favorite putty in the show notes.  When you are feeling scared and overwhelmed, take time to breathe. Jemima demonstrated a few techniques in our podcast.  I love that they are teaching these techniques in school…and it is great insight for adults as well.  Deep, rhythmic breathing communicates safety to your body and helps to stem the cascade of stress responses in the body.    OUTRO   Here are links to the resources mentioned in today’s podcast Crazy Aaron’s Thinking Putty: https://puttyworld.com Generation Mindful: https://www.genmindful.com/?rfsn=654637.ab95e

When tragedy impacts in the life of a child, it can be difficult for adults to know how to help. Ada June, age 11, had a sister die and a brother undergo multiple open-heart surgeries. She shares about death, the power of remembering, and the importance of being able to self-advocate in the midst of pain. There is wisdom here for anyone who is walking with a child through sadness as well as for those that support parents during times of disruption.   - Ada Mertes I remember telling you and Daddy when I was younger that I was afraid that my grandparents were going to die or that you were going to die or that I was going to die. I was afraid because it was, now something that was going to forever be a part of my life. And it's, it's something that actually really stays with you. Not like the fear but just like the feeling of loss. And there's always a slight feeling of, there's always something that's never going to be perfectly right because you know, something, a part of everything's not there.   INTRO   My daughter, Mercy Joan Mertes, died at just eight days old in 2011.  In the coming weeks, I will share more of my personal journey with grief and mourning.  The sadness of her death affected every area of my life:  my graduate studies, my marriage, my friendships, and my parenting.  Parenting. I was still the parent of Ada and Magnus…and part of my role as their mother was to help them navigate their loss. This was not always easy.  I was exhausted, wrung out by the emotional challenges of my own day.    And yet the task of translating and interpreting loss, of listening to children as they go through their own grief journey, is so important.    So today, I am beginning a mini-series to talk about childhood disruption. Over the next three weeks, you will meet three of my favorite people:  Ada, Magnus, and Jemima Mertes.    It is my hope that these reflections from children help in three potential ways.   They help you better companion the children in your life that have experienced or are right now experiencing disruption.  If you don’t remember, childhood can be hard.  There are scraped knees and neighborhood bullies.  Someone is always deciding when you go to bed and what you have to eat for dinner.  Now, factor in a divorce or a cancer diagnosis.  It can all feel pretty overwhelming, for both kids and adults. These episodes help you show more empathy to friends and coworkers that are parenting children through seasons of disruption.These adults are not only managing their own sadness and exhaustion, they have little people that are looking to them for direction and guidance…and that is a really particular burden to carry. Maybe these reflections help you to encounter your own childhood disruptions through a different light, to reflect on the ways that you were met or missed and how that empathy (or lack of empathy) might still be affecting you now.   But first, some context.  In the fall of 2010, I had just started business school and was pregnant with our third child, a little girl named Mercy Joan.  I found out, at the 20 week scan, that she had a birth defect called an encephalocele:  the base of her skull had not closed.  Doctors were unable to gauge the severity of her condition…they wouldn’t be able to tell until she was able to have an outside the womb MRI.  Mercy was born on February 15, 2011.  She could not breathe on her own and she died after eight short days of life.  Ada was three and Magnus was seventeen months old.    Two children followed Mercy:  Jemima and then Moses.  Moses was born in 2014 with a serious cardiac condition called tetralogy of fallot with pulmonary atresia.  Let me put that in layman’s terms:  an optimally functioning heart has four valves…and you need all of them to survive; Moses was only born with three.  Without surgical intervention, he would have turned blue and died.  He has needed multiple open-heart surgeries.    When I was a child, I remember that out postman died.  Apart from this tangential loss, nothing really horrible cast a shadow over my childhood.  This is not the case for my children:  they have had a sister die and a brother need significant medical intervention.  Along the way, they have asked deep questions and found meaning in the midst of pain.    Today, I’d like to introduce you to Ada, my eldest.  Ada is 11.  She has one of the most active minds I have ever met, she is always analyzing, assessing, and making connections.  She is kind and vibrant.  She loves to read and run and she began Middle School this year.  Ada is the big sister in our house.    Ada Mertes So, I have a younger brother who is 9 years old and he he's really funny. And he, he's really, he's just a fun guy to be around his name's Magnus. I have a 7, 6 year old sister, Jemima, and she's she's really really perky but she's she's always doing all these different things and she's always doing something and she likes crafts and Moses who is five years old now. Yeah. And he he's really rascally. But he's also he can be really, really sweet and then Mercy who would be eight. And yeah.   Liesel Mertes So talking about your siblings is one of the reasons that we're here today. Could you set the scene for us a little bit about how old you were and what point you're at in life when Mercy came into your world?   - Ada Mertes I was three years old and I was expecting a baby sister. And when she was born, she was born with a birth defect in her brain. And so, I, there was my little sister and I was three years old and Magnus was one.   - Liesel Mertes What do you remember about finding out that I was pregnant about your sister about her arrival? What really sticks out in your mind about that time?   - Ada Mertes I was thrilled when I found out I was going to have a baby sister. I remember planning to have tea parties with her and teach her how to sing and to read into walk and into talk and I remember, I was finally going to have the perfect girl playmate and she could dress up with me. And that was something that Magnus could do but he just couldn't do it in the same way that a sister could. And I was just so thrilled I was going to have like a little, a little version of me that I could take under my wings.   Liesel Mertes So do you remember finding out or what it was like to find out that it was not all going to be as you expected?   Ada Mertes I think I was I was kind of shocked, but I think I also was kind of in denial a little bit. I thought, you know things are gonna be OK and I held onto that hope for so long that things were gonna be OK and that everything was gonna work out in the end like a fairy tale kind of and things didn't work out that way.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, tell us a little bit more so when she was born.   - Ada Mertes She, she had a lot of problems, not only she had a hole the back of her skull and she also had some problems with her spine. And so she stayed in the hospital for several days and we came and visited her a lot and she had to be hooked up to a machine. Then you decided to take, you and Daddy decided to take her off of the machine and you brought her home. Well, actually to my grandmother's house but to home and that was she lived for a few days and then she died there.   Liesel Mertes What was it like being 3 and having a sister die?   Ada Mertes Well I remember it was I it was kind of hard because in all of the stories that I've read there were fairy tales they used to read me and the Bible stories and they would go through hard stuff but in the end everything would work out. And I think I had my fingers crossed in a way and I was just hoping things are gonna work out. I would tell myself, you know don't worry, we'll overcome these things just like you know, Robin Hood and all of these these characters that had been some my best friends when I was little and I like, till the very end, I just hoped you know things can still work out. There's there's this magical way to save her and it's it's there.   Liesel Mertes The hope that everything will work out in the end.  I want to interject a memory here, the recollection of the awful moment when we told Ada that Mercy had died.  We were sitting in the basement, Mercy’s small body in my arms. And I told Ada, your sister is dead. Ada was perplexed, after all, her sister was there, in the house, no longer at the hospital.  “She’s not dead, she’s home.”  “No,” I replied, “she doesn’t have any more breath.”  I could see her mind working, “Then I will get her breath” Ada declared, coming over to give Mercy her breath.  She continued, with a hint of desperation, “I will feed her.” “No,” I reply, “she is dead”. There it is, that magical hope that the much loved sister would somehow be saved.    Liesel Mertes What do you remember of what it was like after she died?   Ada Mertes At It, I think it did affect me a lot. Even today, like the way that I talk and just act is affected by that. But then I remember I was told after this, like a few years ago, that at the playground sometimes I would pretend that I had a pretend sister and I'd play with her, it affected my play and just everything about me. I don't think, like, I don't know if I really understood what was going on. But the loss was definitely rooted within me.   Liesel Mertes Indeed, the loss rooted down deeply. This is an excerpt from my journal, just a few weeks after Mercy died: In the mornings, before we are out of bed, Ada June often arrives with requests for milk, snuggle bugs, and changed diapers.  She will snuggle in between the sheets with us to chat and squirm before the day and her brother fully awaken.  Lately, we have been playing “Baby Mercy”.  Ada lays in her diaper, because babies come out “naked and slimy”.  For the first few times, we would play overshadowed by the reality of Mercy’s death. I am designated to be Ada, and I would stroke her face lovingly, telling her how glad I was to have Mercy and how sad I would be once she left for heaven.  However, the game has taken a different, more painfully reflective turn. Baby Mercy (aka Ada), now declares that “I am going to stay with you!  I am going to grow up!”  We then play that Mercy dresses up with Ada, they play games, they eat together, and do all of the things that sisters who have years together will do…all of the things that will never be for Ada and Mercy.   A dull ache.   Liesel Mertes How did it make you feel about, an apprehension about death of other people in your life?   Ada Mertes I think it was definitely a lot more a lot more paranoid and scared because this thing was like something that had been talked about, death. But after she died, it became like a real thing to me, it became like something that could actually happen. It wasn't just something in the distant future. It was something that was here and now and a reality in such a very different way. And I think I definitely I worried a lot more about it.   - Liesel Mertes Tell us a little bit more about that worry.   Ada Mertes I think not only was I worried that like my grandparents, my parents were going to die, because I knew it could be something so unexpected, but I think I was also worried that I was going to die in a different sort of way. And like, just, I kind of, I was a lot more aware that there was like a true, sad, very sad reality to that.   Liesel Mertes Was that worry something that was just inside of you? Or did it come out in different ways?   Ada Mertes I remember telling you and Daddy when I was younger that I was afraid that my grandparents were going to die or that you were going to die or that I was going to die. I was afraid because it was, now something that was going to forever be a part of my life. And it's, it's something that actually really stays with you. Not like the fear but just like the feeling of loss. And there's always a slight feeling of, there's always something that's never going to be perfectly right because you know, something, a part of everything's not there.   Liesel Mertes Was there anything that was helpful for you when you were feeling like that?   Ada Mertes So, the thing about it is it always stays with you. The sadness and a lot of times when I was younger, I didn't know just ways to get my mind off of it. Like I remember making play dough with you or just like being able to try to be a child again in a different sort of way. Not having to think about that. And as I got older, when I would feel sad about it, just having someone to talk to, one of my best friends, like I could just tell them, you know, I'm feeling sad about Mercy today and they, they remembered and they're like, Yeah, I know that that must really be sad. And they were just able to say that it really, it really hurts when people don't remember when, like, say like I'm feeling sad about Mercy, you could say that to someone and they're like, who? And you have to explain over and over again and you've explained it to this person several times before but they just don't remember, yeah.   Liesel Mertes Tell me, tell me more. Was there anything that people did that was particularly unhelpful or hurtful?   Ada Mertes I remember once I was writing a story about Mercy and I was particularly, particularly, particularly sad that day and I was telling them, like, I'm, I'm so sad about my sister and what they said to me in response was, "Well, you know, my my sister, she once fell and she split her chin open and she had to get stitches. So you know what happened to you was not that bad." And that just, like it really hurt because she's comparing her sister having to get stitches to my sister who died when I was 3 years old. And it just felt like she didn't even care, that all she cared about was like her pain and that she didn't really even like acknowledge any of what I was going through.   Liesel Mertes On the other side, are there things that people have done that have been really helpful for you?   Ada Mertes Like I said, just people being able to remember or if like, sometimes I'll be not able to focus, especially like on a day that's like her birthday or and the day she died. Or just like, just I'm feeling sad one day and I can tell my teachers sometimes like it's kind of hard for me to focus, like today was Mercy's birthday or something like that and just saying Yeah that's OK, I understand. Just having people to talk to and be able for people to understand how I'm feeling is really, really helpful.   Liesel Mertes And I'm struck that, you know, you're talking about that sense of apprehension or wondering could this happen to me. Could this happen to someone else? You did have another disruptive life event that came with your brother Moses. Tell us a little bit more about that.   Ada Mertes  Moses was born with a heart defect. He was born without one of the valves in his heart. And so he's had to have numerous open heart surgeries and just heart surgeries over the past five years. I think four or five of them and they've been very serious procedures and I think the first one was the case. I'm 11, now five years ago, I was seven or eight. Probably something like. So yeah, that was, that was hard too because I'd already had a sibling die and of a birth defect too. And it was definitely very worrisome. Is, is this going to happen again? Is this going to to be the same all over again?   Liesel Mertes What do you think are things that grownups misunderstand about kids and their grief or sadness?   [00:11:52.910] - Sometimes kids don't actually, like for me, I'm very verbal, so I like talking about it but sometimes kids just don't want to talk about it and I feel, like, sometimes people are led into having, like making kids talk about it, like, oh how are you feeling? Are you okay? And like, saying, like that sometimes kids don't want to talk about it. Maybe they just, like want a hug or say, I'm feeling sad and they don't like, want to be pushed into talking about it. Or sometimes kids say, there's a lot of stuff that happens at school and it's just like, so much stress sometimes. And with all of that, it's sometimes, it can be too much and sometimes when they are asking like, hey it can be hard to like have the courage to go up and ask, Hey could I just like have some time off to just be quiet and read or like yeah, I can't really focus today. Is there anything that I could just like do. You know, sometimes it can be hard to have that courage but. And then, if adults are like, well and then they can just, it can kind of feel like they're judging you because of that but it just can be really hard to focus when you have other things on your mind and your mind can be swirling all around, you can't focus.   Liesel Mertes What is helpful for you when you want to be able to focus or deal with some of those emotions?   Ada Mertes  Well sometimes I listen to music that really helps. And I can't sometimes. Just talking to people not even about it, just like making conversation with others can really help. Or just being able to read a book or take a nap can really help. But sometimes it's hard to like do that within the chaos of everything that goes on in our everyday lives. And it's really good to take the time to do that when you feel like, Oh I'm feeling really sad or really stressed about this. I want to be able to have self care and that's something that people can really struggle with because they're like, but I have to do this so that they can't. Sometimes they don't understand their own emotions. But what really helps is just to take a moment to say, what can I do to help myself feel better? And then maybe be a self advocate for yourself. Ask an adult and if they they don't help you, then ask another adult. You need to be able to advocate for yourself when you're feeling sad like that you.   Liesel Mertes Do you have any, those were some great words of insight for people who are going through something similar, but as you think about, if there's anyone listening who has a child who is going through grief or who is a child going through a disruptive life event, what words of insight would you offer to someone in that situation?   Ada Mertes What I would say to the children is, it's not your fault and it's OK. You are, you're always still loved by God. And no matter what happens, God is always going to love you and your parents are always going to love you and just keep believing in the power of hope. Things can feel really, really hard at times, but just keep, keep believing that things can get better and just, if there's a time where you're just feeling super overwhelmed and you can't get this sad thing out of your mind, be able to self advocate for yourself or just be able to say, you know what I'm going to take a break from this homework, it's really stressful and I'm really, I can't focus on this because of something else and I'm gonna go and take a nap where I'm going to go and take a walk or go for a run. Be able to be vulnerable. Sometimes to be able to tell people, I'm feeling really sad because sometimes that really, really helps to be able to, to let people know that you're feeling. And for parents, I'd say just be able to to give support. And you don't always have to bring it up. Sometimes that can be hard to talk about, but be able to, be able to find fun things for you and your child to like, say look, let's go on a bike ride.   Ada Mertes  You know it doesn't have to be something big. It can just be like going for a bike ride or reading a story together because sometimes those are the most meaningful moments, just being able to sit down take a break from all the busyness or all the, the grief and everything that's going on, just being able to do what you did before everything happened. Being able to just be a child in a different sort of way.   Liesel Mertes You, you spoke about that feeling of feeling overwhelmed or for a child who might be listening to that. Could you tell us a little bit, could you describe like what that feels like inside of you when you know that that is coming or when you're in the midst of it?   Ada Mertes Sometimes it can be just like you just can't focus. You're like working on a math sheet and it should be super easy. It's something you know or you're, you're reading a book but these thoughts just keep nagging at you like, Oh I'm so sad that my moms have has cancer or I just my siblings really sick right now. I I'm really worried. I can't, I don't know what to do. It can feel like that. It can also be like, it can just be like, I can't take it anymore. I don't know what to do. And sometimes, it can just be like you can't, you just can't think about anything. Your brain's overloaded.   Ada Mertes  You really don't know what to do and in that moment I'd say, like talk to me and I'll ask them like I want I can't, I don't know what to do. And I'm really, really stressed and I'm really, really sad. Is there anything that you know to do or you could ask like, can I just have a break from whatever you're doing or could I just like go and ride my bike. Or, if you're doing homework, like can I read a book or listen to an audio book or something.   Liesel Mertes Have you needed to take time like that. I'm struck that you have been in school like on days when Moses is having surgery, have you needed to take moments like that in a day?   Ada Mertes There was one time where I was doing math in class but I just could not focus on it. It was I think it was Mercy's birthday and I just couldn't focus. I was really, really sad and I just I went to my teacher and I said, "Mrs. Wilson, I really, I can't focus today was my dead sister's birthday. Do you mind if I just take a break from math for a little while?" and she said, "Sure Ada, that, you can totally do that," And just being able to be vulnerable is really, really helpful. Or sometimes on days where Moses is having surgery, I can go down and talk to the school counselors or just like play a game with them and be like, you know, Yeah he's having surgery today think thanks for caring about that. Thanks for noticing. Thanks for being there.   Liesel Mertes I'm so glad that you've had adults that have been able to be there for you like that. Is there anything else that you have not gotten a chance to say, whether it's a story or something that you thought of? And we can edit it and put it in a certain point.   Ada Mertes Well just like I said before, just being able to remember people's grief is really, really important because if you forget, it can feel really really sad to the other person. I know many people have forgotten about Moses his condition or about Mercy. And I've explained it to them, like I've lost count, I've explained it to them so, so many times and they always say, oh I'm sorry, but I never say any more about it. And then I talk. I try to talk to them about it, hoping they'll remember because I've told them so many times but they they never do.   Ada Mertes  And it feels like, in the in the hubbub of and the busyness of all of our days, remembering something that's kind of insignificant that doesn't affect us. But you know, really is important to your friend, being able to remember that, in being able to acknowledge that throughout your life daily basis on a daily basis is really, really, really, really helpful. It really, really makes me feel supported and loved when people can remember that.   Ada Mertes And I really just remember, remember when someone's going through a hard thing. Remember and be able to say, like, hey are you OK? I know, I know that what you're going through is hard. And if they say, yeah, then you don't have to bring it up but if they say, no, I'm actually feeling really, really sad and you can ask them if they want to talk about it and just be able to be there and remember don't forget because they feel like that's the worst thing it can do.   Liesel Mertes I'm struck with one more thing that you talked about as I was thinking, you know, for kids who are experiencing disruptive life events, oftentimes their parents are also going through disruptive life events. What is it like being a kid watching your parent go through something hard?   Ada Mertes It can, it can be kind of scary. And also really sad because you see parents vulnerable and they're supposed to be the ones taking care of you. I'd say that sometimes, if you see your parent being vulnerable, maybe not in the moment but a little later, be supportive of them supportive of them too. You can have the entire family can help. They can support each other and be able to build each other up, give each other just encouragement throughout the day. Pray for each other be able to be there for each other. Can really help to have a safe family and a safe school and workplace can really help.   Ada Mertes Just be able to remember and be able to support your family. And like, if your entire family is going through something, be able to be vulnerable with them because they, they probably know how you feel more than anyone. Also be able to be someone in your family who can be able to be like a bright shining candle in your family in a moment of darkness, when your siblings are stressed and you're having a fight with them. Just don't get angry because there's more going on. Be able to just give them a little bit of, a little bit of leeway or make your parents coffee in the morning or just be able be able to be there for, not only your family but your friends when they're going through something and be able to be vulnerable. Sometimes that's what you need.   Ada Mertes You need to self advocate sometimes and then other times be able to know what you need and just be able to take that time to talk. Maybe it's you just need a good cry. Sometimes you just need to cry and when that happens, just be able to give yourself that chance because nobody's going to judge you; they don't, they don't know what you're going through in the same sort of way. And sometimes you really, really just need to be able to give yourself that.   Liesel Mertes Thank you Miss Ada June Mertes for joining us.   Ada Mertes Thank you.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three closing thoughts from my interview with my daughter, Ada June Mertes. It is meaningful to remember with someone that is grieving. Ada talked about the pain of having to explain, again and again, about Mercy’s death or Moses’ surgeries.  As you remember with a child, resist the urge to make comparisons or rush them too quickly to a resolution. It is OK to cry, it is OK to be fragile, it is OK to need a hug, even years after the death or the diagnosis. There is no set timeline for grief.  Kids (and grown-ups), learn, in the words of Ada, to self-advocate. Are you feeling overwhelmed?  Let someone know.  Would you benefit from a break from your homework or class?  Let someone know.  Do you need a hug or a kind word, don’t be afraid to ask.  There are people who can and will help you.  And to all of the school guidance counselors and teachers and bus drivers that have cared well for my children over these tear-stained years, let me take a moment to say thank you.  Thank you for making the space for my children to hold their grief instead of hide from it.   OUTRO    

Jasmin is no stranger to loss: her mother died of ovarian cancer while Jasmin was in high school. A few years later, Jasmin’s brother, Rory, took his life. She shares deep wisdom from her journey towards healing for those that have been affected by suicide and loss and speaks on the invitations of grief. Jasmin is the founder of Fall Up, a community driven platform that brings people together to navigate the spectrum of grief.   You know, grief is about love and it's, it's such a taboo and when we can remember that when we hold grief, we, and we honor it with the reverence in the space that it deserves, we have more joy in life, not less,   INTRO   When I was in high school, the father of one of my friends shot and killed himself.  I remember the strangeness of the funeral.  My friend was crying, standing by the side of the casket in a suit that was too big on his small frame.  I wondered, how had they made his dad look so good in the casket after a gunshot wound to the chest?  I recall our collective discomfort.  We were a bunch of fifteen-year-olds, totally out of our depth.  What should I say?  What should I do?    Age hasn’t necessarily made that much of a difference.  It can be difficult to know how to support friends and coworkers after a suicide.    My guest today is Jasmin Jenkins.  Jasmin shares about losing loved ones to both cancer and suicide.  We talk about meaningful gestures, careless phrases, and what it looks like to journey towards healing.       Jasmin and I attended college together and I have loved seeing her life journey extend beyond those formative years.  She lives in sunny Los Angeles with her dog, Birdie.    - Jasmin Jenkins I love, having grown up in the Midwest where it's gray for probably it feels like seven months a year, I love the consistent sunshine and the proximity to the mountains and the beach. Nature is super important to me.   - Liesel Mertes Do you have to be particularly careful with the sunshine as you are a lovely redhead? Is there an element of danger that you feel?   - Jasmin Jenkins Yes, I wear, I wear lots of sunblock and have my fair share of hats to choose from on any given day.   In LA, Jasmin walks alongside men and women in their grief journey.  Jasmin partners with a women’s focused app called Quilt and she is building out her vision for empowering people through the spectrum of grief with a community project called Fall Up.   It is no coincidence that Jasmin’s work centers around grief.  Loss was a part of her story from an early age.  Jasmin’s mother went through her first bout with cancer when Jasmin was very young.    - Jasmin Jenkins  I think that it it just made I didn't feel anxious as a child, but I think I was I was just more attuned to, to, the temporary-ness of all of this from an early age.   - Jasmin Jenkins My mom had had a a bilateral mastectomy so she, I saw the scars on her body, and I knew that, you know, she that there was a gravity to her story. And as a child, I would go in and, you know, I would sneak into the bedroom and make sure that she was still breathing at night. So, I really, I don't think that I was particularly anxious, but I was definitely aware of the fact that she wasn't going to be with me forever. You know from it and I knew that from an early age.   Jasmin had always sensed a fragility around her mother, this sense that she would not be there forever. Then, when Jasmin was just 13, there was the hard, hard news:  her mother had advanced, stage 3C ovarian cancer.     - Jasmin Jenkins It was just, it was so, I felt I was so powerless. And I think when you're a child and you see your parents suffering and they're clearly in such good seeing my mom in such excruciating pain, was it really, it was painful. But I, I, I just kind of shut down emotionally because there was unfortunately nothing that I could directly do to alleviate her suffering. So, it was, it was a very difficult time and she was in and out of remission for a bit. So, you have, as anyone who's dealt with cancer knows, you have those pockets of remission and you feel like you can take an exhale for the first time and and then unfortunately, my mom circumstance, it ended up that that cancer had metastasized to her lungs, which is, you know, that's a very serious diagnosis and there really wasn't much that we could do once it had reached her lungs.   - Jasmin Jenkins  So yeah, it was just, it was a very painful time and as a teenager, you're already going through so much from an emotional standpoint. And then, you have your your parent’s mortality kind of facing you every day. It's was definitely challenging, and I wish that I'd been able to show up with more heart and love, but I did it in the time what I had the capacity to do.   Jasmin attended high school at Wheaton Academy, in a suburb to the west of Chicago.  She remembers a supportive community of friends, parents, and coaches that came alongside her in ways that were immensely meaningful.    - Jasmin Jenkins Cards. People wrote me so many cards and I'm a, I, anyone who knows me knows that I am a card writer. And they just, I saved all, I have all those cards in my storage unit. They're just, reading those cards and knowing that somebody's either a friend or a friend's family member sat down or they picked out a card and they sat down and they wrote from their heart to me. And sometimes, it was a card that was also to my dad and to my brother. But yeah, the cards meant a lot.   - Jasmin Jenkins  And then just those moments with the teacher, either before or after class, just that presented like, how are you doing? You know, knowing that there is a weightiness that I was carrying that some of my peers, many of my peers, weren't carrying at the time. So yeah, just those moments of pause that communicated that there was a compassion for what I was going through was incredibly meaningful.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Jasmin Jenkins And in terms of, I don't feel like I missed anything directly, but I know that it would have been, had like an adult female figure stepped in at the time and said, look, like, either I've been through this or I see you in this and I want to mentor you and just show up through you or for you rather through this consistently. I think that would have been really helpful. I don't look back and feel like, Oh I missed; I wish that X would have happened, but I think if there had been either a teacher, a specific teacher that would have said, like your mine for the next three years, I think that could have been really helpful. If schools had some sort of a structure like that in place for students whose parents were either terminally ill or had died, I think, you know, because a lot happens in the time after death of a parent.     - Liesel Mertes And what. What would you speak? I want to ask you more a little bit later on about some of the ways in which you, your, the work of this season of life has been shaped by the four imitations of grief. What so.   - Liesel Mertes As someone who is living in the years beyond without your mother, do you find like is she, how is she present or how are you aware of her absence?   - Jasmin Jenkins I think it's it's really been about honoring that person's absence because the absence never goes away. And I think it's being friendly with that absence and I remember a teacher/professor from Wheaton College; we'd connected over loss. He actually married his wife at the time knowing that she was going to die from cancer, and we connected over my mom having died from cancer as well. And he saw me in that and he's like, you know Jasmin, the thing that I want to remind you of is that your mom is in your DNA. And even though you don't see her, she's with you all the time. And. It was it's obviously like, you know. Our biological parents are part of our DNA, but it just struck me with such profundity and yeah   - Jasmin Jenkins I can't, I can't physically see my mom, but I do see and I connect with my mom and I feel the certain, there's certain things that I'm attuned to whether it's aesthetics or music and I I definitely feel her presence and have a friendliness with her. Like sometimes I'll get dressed and I'm like, Oh hello Mother. I think that's totally something that she would have worn you know and just, my mom was always so colorful and fun and vibrant and sometimes over that can you not wear that interview like you know what. When you're an adult you can decide how you want to dress. But I was so shy that I, as a child, that it was hard for me to understand why she would sometimes like wanted something she wanted to is just being true to herself that she dressed bright with color and texture. And so, I think it's yeah, it's just that friendliness and knowing that. I am my own mother. My mother mothered me with such love. I had an amazing mom and I'm so incredibly blessed to be able to say that because I know that there are plenty of women for whom that's not true.   - Jasmin Jenkins  But in terms of my life I here in L.A, I have a couple of very dear friends and we try to meet once a month for dinner and we've all lost our moms through various circumstances and we're all about the same age and have creative professions and callings and so, it's sometimes, our dinner conversation isn't even specifically about our moms but it's more what we would share with them were they here. So, we call ourselves Mother More and you know it's about finding them more in in the less you know the we're not. There's a book called Motherless Daughters and you know, we talked about that and we we really wanted to name ourselves and call ourselves something that is a tuning us to the expansion that comes when we create intentional space for for conversation that uplifts the soul yeah   - Liesel Mertes There's something I have appreciated from a distance here purposefulness and holding memory and holding space at night. I think there are things that you do each year, whether that is around her birthday or Mother's Day. Can you speak a little bit to those things that have been particularly helpful that you've just built into the rhythms of each year?   - Jasmin Jenkins Sure. So, I always, my mom's birthday is February 22nd and there's always a bittersweet-ness to, to that day. And with my long term ex-boyfriend, we would, he would usually buy me a cake and we would have some sort of a, you know, we would eat the cake and I would reflect on a memory of my mom and it just bringing a that celebration even though my mom isn't physically present. Getting a cake and bringing some lightness and levity to the moment and connecting with people that loved her and that she loved is definitely part of.   - Jasmin Jenkins My ritual around her birthday and then with the anniversary of her death, which is on July 16th. There isn't really something that I do consistently around that it's more than just holding space for it. And if I'm with my dad, being intentional about conversation or connection. And.   - Jasmin Jenkins Writing letters, I think is also a great way to just, you know, I do believe that my mom can, I believe that there is a connection that transcends the physical. Absolutely. But there's something also very important for healing about writing to our loved ones. So, I think that's an important. There's an invitation with our writing to connect and to support ourselves.   - Liesel Mertes We've talked some about your mother. There was also another loss within your young life. Please tell us about your brother, Rory. Some of some of your favorite aspects of your brother? A little bit about who he was?   - Jasmin Jenkins Sure. Rory, I mean, I can't say his name without smiling because he just he lit everyone up that he met, and he really brought so much joy into the lives of the people that he was connected to. So, Rory and I were just a year apart. I'm April 1st he was April 30th and we really grew up on each other's heels and it wasn't until mid-teenage years that we really, I mean, of course you have a bond of growing up as children together. But we really came to this place of like, Oh yeah, I'm so grateful for you. And I love you. You know, mid, mid teenage years and we just had so much fun together. He made me laugh so much; he was a wild and beautiful and dynamic soul and I I wish that he was still here. But unfortunately, he's not physically present on this earth any longer either.   - Liesel Mertes I, I imagine that for both of you that time, do you as you think about becoming closer in your teenage years, did that dovetail with, you know, well Mom, Mom is gone and we are like choosing each other differently or do you feel like that was more coincidental with its time horizon?   - Jasmin Jenkins I think it was more of a subtle kind of, OK let's get over our teenage angst and you know, my brother had a drum set in his room and he would play it super loudly just to annoy me my room. And you know, that kind of stuff like, let's get over whatever the metaphorical genocide is and just, yes, mom is no longer with us. Let's love each other as though she was still present. And yeah, I think her passing definitely united us and my, my brother had such an open and sensitive heart and he really, where I wasn't able to show up for my mom when she, I just with a heart and an open heart, he was really able to show up with her and he really, after she died, I think he really carried that openness and sensitivity with him and and really brought that out in me. So yeah, it was, I think definitely her death and then my brother when he enlisted in the army. I don't remember exactly how many years after her death, but that, having him in a war zone just brought us, so they brought us really close. And I think, you know, I would always await his phone calls and look forward to talking to him and hearing about how everything was going where he was, and he returned home from a war zone.   - Liesel Mertes Would you tell us a little bit about what led up to the your awareness of his death at what point in your life did that occur?   - Jasmin Jenkins Sure. So just to provide a little bit of context for, my brother had had mental health struggles for a lot of his life and he also struggled with addiction. And he I bet he'd always had this calling to, to serve and it from in the army I should say. He always felt this, patriotic, he had this really specific desire to be in a war zone and I think I think that he probably felt like being in an environment like that was more like home than being in the suburbs of Chicago because of how his mind felt.   - Jasmin Jenkins You know when you, so Rory, yeah. He he went to Iraq, was deployed and I know that he saw a lot there. And he you know he was, he was happiest as a soldier. And that was absolutely the intersection point of his passion and purpose. And I find great joy in knowing that he he really did what he wanted to do. From, yet from a purely purpose standpoint. But unfortunately, when in many circumstances, when you mix prolonged mental illness with addiction with PTSD, it's a, it's a very toxic combination. And you know, my brother did return from Iraq and, and things really felt very positive.   - Jasmin Jenkins But unfortunately, you know he just, from a purely factual and not emotional standpoint, he did end up taking his own life and it's, you know, there are people in my family that really believe that it was an accident and perhaps it was it seemed like everything was going really great for him. But at the end of the day it's, you know my brother ended his own life.   - Jasmin Jenkins And you know, it's, it's a thing that we grapple with and I think there's one of the teachers that I follow is named Tara Brock and she has a beautiful book about radical acceptance and the radical-ness of accepting what's completely unbearable and the things that we can't understand and the stories that we'll like, I'll never fully know what happened that night. But you know, the stages of grief:  denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance is the last one and, you know, I would give anything to have my brother here but that's not within my my power to make true.   - Jasmin Jenkins  But I can hopefully inspire others who are going through, you know navigating suicide and in their family systems to explore the freedom that comes from acceptance because there's often so much guilt that comes when, when a situation like this occurs and it's nothing that I did or that somebody else did or didn't do. It's really unfortunately completely out of our control.   - Liesel Mertes You, you talk about the stages of processing grief. Do you remember what, what was it like for you to initially receive that news?   - Jasmin Jenkins Very. It was completely devastating. You know, having had, as I said my brother had mental health struggles from an early age and, and very profound rejection struggles. So, there is a part of me that I was, you know, fight or flight for quite a while wondering like, am I going to get a phone call? And I certainly had scary phone calls with my brother in the E.R. et cetera. But this particular night, my long term ex-boyfriend and I were returning home from a Paul McCartney concert and my phone had died at the concert and I plugged my phone in the car and I had a couple of missed calls from a number that I didn't recognize and then I heard a voicemail that was from my brother's former fiancé, her sister called me: this is an emergency. So, I, of course, called her back and the first question that I asked, because she said that it was about Rory, and the first question I asked was:  is he alive? And just tell me that he's alive. You know, like tell me, I don't care if he's, you know, like just tell me that he's alive and when she said No, I just, I've never, it was this scream that I don't know. Maybe mom's let out when they're lifting up a car to save their child. It was, you know, fortunately Dave was driving and was able to, you know, deal with the fact that I was completely overtaken by emotion, but it was, it, I've never had anything like that come through me and then knowing that. I would then need it. Dave drove me to the hotel where my dad was staying. We were in New York at the time and I had to go and tell my dad that his son had died. So it was, there was a level of anguish that, I I can't articulate there are words for that anguish.   - Jasmin Jenkins And you know, to this day, that is the worst moment of my life is having to knock on my dad's hotel door and tell him. So it was truly, you know, one of those moments and I know that we're not alone in those moments but we feel so alone in those moments and I'm so grateful for for the people who showed up for me and who were there with me that night, because cancer is is a different sort of demon. You know, for, for those of us, even with the later onset cancer, like you know, you do have a little bit of time, you have some time to do at least mentally wrap your head around the fact that, OK we're walking, we are actually walking this person home. But with my brother, it was like completely, in complete shock as a suicide is.   - Jasmin Jenkins So yeah, it was completely, completely devastating. And I I don't think you ever get over those moments, but I do think that when we can bring a grace to the conversation and return to those stories, we can return to a piece of ourselves through remembering. As painful as sometimes that not remembering can be.   - Liesel Mertes What words would you give to someone who's coming alongside someone who has had someone they care about that has taken their own life?   - Jasmin Jenkins Show up and know that presence is so much more important than actual words. It's the, the, I don't remember what people said. I mean, you remember the stupid things of course that people said, which seemed to inevitably be plentiful in times of distress and anguish. But it's showing up with consistency, with presence and not knowing that there, there's nothing that you can say to alleviate the pain but the the physical presence of being in a holding space for grief communicates, it uplifts the soul in a way that you, over time, with that consistency of presence, you feel.   - Jasmin Jenkins  And so, you know, there's, there's so much shame in our culture around suicide and you know there's a shame that I think family members carry. There's a, there's a lot of shame. So it's just, you know, I think knowing that if you're endeavoring to support somebody who's navigating that, that there might not be an organic opportunity to speak into that but in time, through just showing up your, you might create that opening for the healing conversation that can really lead to deeper places of peace for those who are struggling to make sense of suicide.   - Liesel Mertes You referenced the plentiful dumb things that people can take away from is blunt saying and or dumb. What were some of the things that you think just don't ever see this term somebody?   - Jasmin Jenkins I know where to start? Yeah, I think, you know, there were a couple of people who said, well you know, it was his time and you know, when you lose your brother and he's 24, it's not his time. I'm sorry. Like, it's just, I think, you know, there's that ego like desire to provide solace with words but really stepping back into the humility of the soul and just going into physical presence. So yeah, it was his time or he's in a better place or you know, just these clichés that it's almost a reaction because there's no, you're, you're out of control in this situation and suicide and death brings up, you know, oh my gosh, the fact that we're all mortal being so it's like these, I think intentions to put a salve on the wound but really, it's like, no you just put like sandpaper in my wound and I'm gonna forgive you for that but please maybe learn to not say things like that you know. Right. Just. It was it wasn't his time.   - Jasmin Jenkins I mean maybe that's a reflection of my not fully accepting it, but I think that there are things that you can say like, you know, I'm here for you and I'm going to keep showing up for you. Can I bring you a meal? Or giving gifts that like planting a tree. Buying a star; you can buy a star. You know they're really thoughtful things that you can do for people who've lost a loved one or a loved one specifically to suicide that can bring those, those little windows of light into the soul of those who are suffering and can meet that impulse that people are displaying even when they say you know ill-intentioned things like that when I'm single. There are better ways. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes One thing that I have loved in speaking about how to help is you have in your own reflection and now in your work really taking some of the things that have been important in your story and are giving it to other people. Tell us a little bit about the four invitations of grief and the work that you're doing with follow up.   - Jasmin Jenkins Thank you. Yeah. So. I in January I wrote an article for a publication that's based in California called The Fullest. And their mission is to bridge wellness and culture. And I had kind of received these insights around grief is such that we know, for those of us who are either, you know experienced a lot of grief or you're actively grieving, like it's such a taboo it's still a taboo word in our culture. And so, I really kind of, in knowing that, stepped back from that and said, well what's a way to kind of soften that word and create an entry point for those who are in that place and feeling like they're in the desert with their arms up? What do I do with this experience? How do I make meaning out of it? And so, I really believe that everyone's grief is as unique as a fingerprint. And so, they’re going, you know, going to need to create a journey for healing that is uniquely theirs. But the invitations are really about finding the layers for beauty and freedom.   - Jasmin Jenkins  And it's very simple. You know the invitation to find your sacred pause. So, when we have an unexpected death where we have a death, it's just, you know, there's so much that's happening that we have to attend to. But really returning to ourselves and sitting with ourselves and embracing the pause that arrives with death is, I think, the first, it's the first layer invitation that I've identified. And then the second invitation is about, you know, really feeling into your breath as your anchor in these tumultuous times of grief. We know that, you know, our emotions can be, they are like waves, you know, one day you're, you feel completely overwhelmed by sadness and then maybe it's anxiety or fear around when's the next phone call going to come or whatever. But really, you know, putting your hands on your heart and knowing that your breath you're always breathing but it's bringing that layer of awareness to your support with your breath.   - Jasmin Jenkins And then the third and fourth invitations that I have identified or are, the third is to feel so it's, so the mind often protects the heart more going through intense journeys of grief and our heart shuts down because we feel like, oh my gosh, you can't really feel through this but it's just taking like one pocket of feeling at a time and kind of, it's like a pocket in your pants, like, you know, putting your hand in there and seeing what's there and, and knowing that the feelings are, are just information, it's not something that's going to envelop you, it's information about the state of your heart and it's information about, OK if there's sadness here, is there something that I need to say, is there, how can I take care of myself in this sadness? Or third, you know, it's just, it's like creating, a bringing of friendliness to the information and knowing that every, no feeling is temporary. Every feeling comes with a purpose of bringing us into our heart and in turn, bringing us more into our lives. So, feeling. And then the last invitation, it is healing. And I put that as is the last one the invitation to heal.   Because, as I said before, every journey with grief is so different. So, I've taken a very, you know, my mom died 20 years ago. My brother died ten years ago, and I've committed to a lot of, I've done a lot of therapy, more traditional therapy and in some intensive therapy and then I've also explored very non-traditional and alternative methods of therapy that have served me incredibly well. So, it's, it's about really knowing that healing is. And I wrote this in the article, healing as a verb. You don't just say I want to heal from this and then you've, your healed. It's, it's bringing those rituals and, and frameworks into your everyday so that your soul can remain buoyant in those times of greater emotional tumult.   - Liesel Mertes Thank you for sharing that. I know that has been impactful both in your writings and also with some of the clients that you are beginning to share. So, I'm excited as that continues to grow for you.   - Jasmin Jenkins Thank you. Yeah. That's really the blueprint. Just as I'm working and guiding individuals, I, I take them through that container of the four invitations and then how are these, how can these invitations become uniquely yours? So, walking them through the pause, the breath, the feeling and the healing and, you know, really sending them on their way. Like, I do those sacred containers ideally give them some sort of, they do give them a an ability to navigate their, their situation in a way that they were not able to before we started co creating and healing together.   - Jasmin Jenkins And then in terms of, just from a very practical standpoint, and I've said this before and I think just, I would be remiss to not say, you know, grief is about love and it's, it's such a taboo and when we can remember that when we hold grief we, and we honor it with the reverence in the space that it deserves, we have more joy in life, not less, because we're attuned to the fact that this, it's such a gift to be here, to open our eyes, to be in our bodies. And the gift of grief is really a deeper capacity to love when we can feel through the layers that are true for our grief stories and a reminder of how deeply we have loved.   - Liesel Mertes You don't grieve unless you have loved deeply   - Jasmin Jenkins Yes.   Is that is the price you pay. No but yes, it is absolutely the reminder of that. And that's that's the beauty that is the beauty for sure.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections from my conversation with Jasmin Presence is so important. As Jasmin said, in the aftermath of suicide, there is no way to take away the pain.  But showing up, being willing to hold space and be with someone that is grieving, that speaks volumes.  Avoid phrases like, “It was his time” or “He is in a better place”. This flattens the experience of a grieving person, reducing it to an easy cliché. Instead of trite phrases, consider some of the meaningful gestures that Jasmin mentioned:  send a card, plant a tree, visit the grave of the deceased. These are gestures that don’t cost much in time or money, but they convey intention and meaningful care.  Perhaps you know someone who is no longer in the acute stages of grief; these gestures still matter.  As a friend or coworker, you can show support by remembering birthdays of those that died or significant anniversaries with gestures like a cake or a kind word.  If you are in the midst of grief, consider the four invitations that Jasmin described: the invitation to find your sacred pause, to feel your breath, to feel your emotions, and, finally, to heal.  You can find more information on Jasmin, her work, and her writings in the show notes.   OUTRO   Here are some links to resources that Jasmin mentioned:   Fall up website The Four Invitations Article Instagram   Jasmin is the Founder of Fall Up, a community driven platform that brings people together to navigate the spectrum of grief. She believes that your grief is as unique as your fingerprint and that through exploring the invitations within your grief, there is greater presence and joy to be found in this one, precious life -- for all.