Podcast appearances and mentions of dean barker

Dean Barker and Hakan Larsson join me to discuss their latest article in Sport Education and Society titled: "What do you think you are doing? How physical education researchers make scientific contributions". This is an open access article that covers issues in publishing and research in the field. To cite this article: D. Barker, J.-E. Ekberg, G. Nyberg & H. Larsson (18 Feb 2025): What do you think you are doing? How physical education researchers make scientific contributions, Sport, Education and Society, DOI: 10.1080/13573322.2025.2465588 To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/13573322.2025.2465588

There's elation from Team New Zealand, after the Kiwis walked away with the America's Cup in Barcelona. They beat out Britannia with a 7-2 series win, clinching a victory and hanging onto the Auld Mug. Former Team NZ skipper Dean Barker joined Piney to discuss. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Former Team New Zealand Skipper Dean Barker joined D'Arcy Waldegrave to discuss the battle for the 37 America's Cup. LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

12 time Rotto Swim soloist Dean Barker checks in with Shaun to deliver some harsh truth about what it really takes to cross the finish line! Follow Perth radio star and Ex-Dockers captain Shaun McManus as he dives headfirst into his most challenging athletic trial to date, a 19.7km open water solo swim to Rottnest Island. Tune in for the triumphs, intense training, and setbacks. This is Shaun McManus' Road To Rotto.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to conclude Objects and Views for Part 6, covering where do Objects and Views fit within the broader design context?

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to talk about Objects and Views for the Part 5, covering metaphor.

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to talk about Objects and Views for the Part 4, covering Spotify as an example and answering the question "is cheesecake cake or pie?"

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to talk about Objects and Views for the Part 3, covering more history and background of how we got to today.

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to talk about Objects and Views for the Part 2, covering the history and background of how Objects and Views sprung up.

We welcome Dean Barker to the show to talk about Objects and Views, the first of several episodes with Dean.

DEAN BARKER:Dean Barker is a name that is synonymous with yachting in NZ. Especially the Americas cup. When you think of that event his name is up there with Coutts and Butterworth back in the day and now Burling and Tuke.Unfortunately, he is probably remembered most for being the Team NZ skipper when we were on the receiving end of one of the greatest comebacks in sporting history- remember that? San Francisco 2013. Team NZ was up 8-1 then we ended up losing to Jimmy Spitalls Oracle boat by 9 races to 8. We reflect on that period in great detail in this conversation. We also chat at length about Deans battle with bowel cancer recently. Bowel cancer is the most commonly reported cancer in New Zealand…and probably one of the least talked about cancers. As a country we have 3000 cases and 1200 deaths each year. https://bowelcancernz.org.nz/Dean has always struck me as being like an old school kiwi guy- stoic, strong, silent and intensely private. So I really appreciate him coming on the podcast and being so open about some really personal and painful stuff.Thanks to Radix Nutrition for sponsoring this episode. Even before they jumped on board as a sponsor, I was a fan of their products. Now their protein powder is part of my daily plan. Every morning without fail. They are so much more than just protein and smoothie powder though. Check out their website to learn more about this kiwi company doing special things.https://radixnutrition.co.nz/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This month, Shirley Robertson's Sailing Podcast hosts one of the sport's most recognisable talents as New Zealand's Dean Barker talks to double Olympic gold medallist Robertson about a career spent chasing the illusive America's Cup.From his formative years growing up in Takapuna, Auckland, Barker was soon sailing at a high level, and was inspired in no small part by the likes of Russell Coutts and the generation of remarkably talented New Zealand sailors making their presence felt on the global stage.  Barker discusses these early days through to the moment when Russell Coutts asked him to helm the final match of Team New Zealand's successful Cup Defence against Luna Rossa in New Zealand...:"It was quite incredible, it was something that I will never ever forget, just having the chance to be a part of it was pretty special....but to be on the boat when we crossed the finish line...it was a huge weight off the shoulders...it was the first time I had touched the Cup and it was the start of a pursuit of trying to do that again."From that Cup win, Dean Barker would spend two decades chasing the illusive trophy, in a career that would see him gain a reputation as one of the most clinical match racers in the sport.Robertson and Barker discuss many of the key campaigns that have punctuated his career, including his appearance at the 2004 Olympics in Athens, and his Match Racing world title.  They wrap up this, the first of two parts, as Dean discusses what his Olympic appearance meant to him personally, and how tough it was to qualify amongst the rich pool of sailing talent from his native New Zealand.In Part 2 the pair inevitably go on to reflect on the remarkable events of San Francisco 2013, a Cup that saw Emirates Team New Zealand concede eight losses in a row against eventual winners Oracle Team USA.  The build up to the 2013 Cup was a remarkable period of development that had seen Barker's Team New Zealand innovate in the extreme, the end result, the fast, powerful fully foiling AC72 that stunned sailing fans across the globe. before also discussing the campaign with American Magic, at home in Auckland, along with a cautionary tale of his fight with colon cancer throughout the build up to that Cup.  This edition of the podcast is another fascinating look into the life of one of the sport of sailing's biggest names, Barker's honesty and sincerity adding significantly to stories from a long and remarkable career.This edition of the podcast is in two parts and is available to listen to via the podcast page of Shirley's own website - www.shirleyrobertson.com/podcast or via most popular podcast outlets, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast and aCast. The podcast is produced and written by Tim Butt - for further enquires, please contact podcast@shirleyrobertson.com.Support the show

Part 2 of this month's podcast that sees Shirley Robertson talk to one of the sport's most recognisable talents, as New Zealand's Dean Barker reflects on a career spent chasing the illusive America's Cup.In Part 1 the pair discuss his formative years growing up in Takapuna, Auckland, and coming to the attention of Russell Coutts, the helm of a New Zealand team that would go on to successfully challenge and then successfully defend the America's Cup.Part two of the podcast kicks off with chat about the marathon Challenger Series in 2007 which saw Barker helm Team New Zealand to twenty seven wins from thirty two matches, to reach another America's Cup match.  Barker and Robertson then go on to reflect on the remarkable events of San Francisco 2013, a Cup that saw Emirates Team New Zealand concede eight losses in a row against eventual winners Oracle Team USA.  The build up to the 2013 Cup was a remarkable period of development that had seen Barker's Team New Zealand innovate in the extreme, the end result, the fast, powerful fully foiling AC72 that stunned sailing fans across the globe...:"To say the boats were under control would be a massive over statement, they were so hard to manage on that reach across from the start to the turning mark off St Francis Yacht Club...the speeds and the power and everything, and how out of control you felt at times...you're thinking if it goes wrong here, we're going to be picking up pieces off the waterfront here in San Francisco!"The result of the 35th America's Cup is well documented, and is much talked about from many of the protagonists here on Robertson's podcast, but the effect of the very public loss on Dean Barker has been profound, a fact that he discusses with Robertson as he looks back on what was a difficult time.Bringing his career up to the present day, Barker also discusses the campaign with American Magic, at home in Auckland, along with a cautionary tale of his fight with colon cancer throughout the build up to that Cup.  This edition of the podcast is another fascinating look into the life of one of the sport of sailing's biggest names, Barker's honesty and sincerity adding significantly to stories from a long and remarkable career.This edition of the podcast is in two parts and is available to listen to via the podcast page of Shirley's own website - www.shirleyrobertson.com/podcast or via most popular podcast outlets, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast and aCast. The podcast is produced and written by Tim Butt - for further enquires, please contact podcast@shirleyrobertson.com.Support the show

New Zealand sailing hero Dean Barker revealed last night that he was diagnosed with bowel cancer ahead of the 2021 America's Cup.

Former Team New Zealand Skipper Dean Barker joined the program to pay his respects to the late Queen Elizabeth II.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Loader is the owner of the Pacific Paddle company in Auckland New Zealand and the designer of the PPC wing.   Interview transcript: Aloha it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, where I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. These are unrushed, long form, in-depth interviews, where I'm trying to learn not only about wing foiling technique and equipment, but also try to get a deeper understanding of the guests, their background, what inspires them and how they live their best life. This show is available on YouTube, where you get video, and also as a podcast in audio only, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app to listen to the long form interviews on the go. This show has a lot of video where I'm filming myself, wing foiling with a back mounted camera and people always ask questions about that. So just preemptively. I wanted to show you how I record it. If you can see this GoPro max camera, a 360 camera mounted on my back. And then afterwards I can edit it and show the footage from different angles. So it's a cool system. So this is a homemade harness windsurfing harness with Camera pole. These are also available commercially. So I'll put more information down below in the description. So check it out. If you have any questions about that. The last time I went on a trip off the Island of Oahu was to New Zealand in February, 2020. This was when the virus was raging in China and right while we're also opening a new shop and so on. So it was a crazy time for me, but I made it over there to visit with Dan Regan. Who's our New Zealand do planet distributor. Thanks so much for inviting me. And we went to a beautiful place called Paula Nui, where they had the Auckland paddle Fest. And that's where I met Sam loader who owns a business called Pacific paddle company or PPC. And we stayed in touch afterwards and he emailed me about this new wing he developed. So I was curious, he sent me a sample. I tried it. And, to be honest, I've tried most wings that are available on the market today. And I can honestly say that it's the favorite one I've tried so far, just the combination of a lightweight pot, very powerful for its size, easy handling, very neutral on the wave and just so many nice features that I like about it. So we talk a lot about the wing and the development. And so on in this video here, I'm also planning to make a detailed product review video that I'll post on a YouTube channel shortly, probably within a week or two. So stay tuned for that. And for now you can go to the link below or appear to get more information about the wing on our website. So without further ado, here's my next guest sound loader with PPC. All right. Sound loader, welcome to the Duke science show and stoked to have you. And it's been a while since I saw you I guess right before the pandemic we met and Paula Newey in New Zealand and he took me tow and foiling, which was awesome. So thanks for that as well. But let's talk a little bit first about your background, like where, where did you grow up and, how did you get into the whole watersports and your business and so on? So I grew up in Christchurch, which is South Island of New Zealand. And I actually grew up skiing. So in the mountains a little bit. So a lot of people don't know I've a ski background and competed a little bit and traveled and went to the U S and stuff. But yeah, The, I guess the whole water thing came about. We used to go to Fiji as a family just once a year, pretty lucky to do that. But my parents just said they couldn't get me out of the water from the start of the day to the end of the day. So I was, they were pretty much going down to the beach at night time and try to find me and whatever I was doing, trying to swim with fish or whatever. I don't know. I was just, I've just been addicted from those are my first kind of memories of just being addicted to the feeling of just being in the ocean and now I just kinda need it. And I'm actually a bit more comfortable in the ocean. Just like all of us, I think all of us addicts. Do you remember where that was in Fiji? Like I was there a couple of years. It was Castaway Island. That's where he needs to go. And it's kinda, it is, it's kinda near like tomato and Tavarua. Yeah, we actually went there by boat. Yeah. Castle. It's a beautiful spot. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Little family spot, but. And then obviously later in life, went back to Fiji and went to spots like the Moto and sift around. And I was just thinking, cause we went a year before the pandemic and I was just thinking how good the wing would have been over there. Surf in the morning, there's always a breeze that comes up. So it would have been pretty unreal having the wing then make star. Okay. And then can I ask you how old you are now? I'm 34 coming up. And then, so how did you get into business? Like how did that come up? Probably it's a long story. Went to uni. Didn't know what I wanted to do. Like probably most of us I just got an office job in Sydney and I thought this isn't me. Went back to New Zealand, saved up, did a bit of building. And saved up and bought a plane ticket to the U S and ended up working for a company over in the U S for a little bit, just a surf retailer, and then met up with some shapers and stuff in San Clemente. And yeah, I guess worked over there for a year, came back here. This was around the time of the boom. So I, yeah, just started learning to design and designing SOPs and yeah, I imported my first container. I think I was about 27 imported the first container to New Zealand. I think it was like 12, 2012, 2013. Those it's not even, yeah, it's the boom. This was growing really fast at that time, man. You obviously pretty. Pretty deep into it. I was pretty young obviously and sold the first container in two weeks. And I thought, what is this crazy? This is too easy sort of thing. I I've got another one, and then I just, and then it just went from one thing to another and I really just love designing boards and yeah. And now here we are quite a few products later. Things keep changing, which makes it interesting. So this is your website Pacific paddle company.com. And this is your shop that you so yeah, so that is the shop in Oakland. We've been here two years. I actually, I should have had a photo of my first shop was in it, it was in a paddock just with a couple of containers just when I started out. But I sold this premises a few years ago and we just made the move and never looked back really. Nice. So that's in tech Poon in New Zealand and it's it's 15 minutes down the road from me, so pretty good location, pretty good lifestyle. And then I guess when did you start getting into foiling and selling foil gear and all that kind of stuff? So I remember seeing foiling, I think it was like Kai and Connor and stuff. They were on the kind of rice boards cut in half and I just went that's ridiculous. I have to try that. So I think it was the first batch of foils that came to New Zealand. I think it was go for at the time. So I, I got my hands on one of those and yeah, I was just thinking how hard it was. I think it was a little, it was a little wing and I was just thinking I got dad to actually tell me behind the GSC. Cause I went straight out in the surf. Actually, I thought I can do this. And I just got rolled. So I got dead to, we hired a jet ski learned behind the ski and it was, yeah. And then from there on out, I dunno, just things have just been developing so fast. And now just the amount of different folds that I've tried. I'm sure you're the same. It's just being crazy, like development from where they began. I think it's so much easier now for anyone to pick it up. It was pretty hard back then. Small board, small wing, small everything, and yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I'm looking at your Instagram page here. It looks like you're deep into wing link. That's like your main thing, huh? Yeah. It's it probably needs to be, I probably need to maybe get some stand-up pedal action bag in there, but I dunno, it's just been. Yeah, it's just been so easy to, to wing lately, just with I dunno, it's just looking for waves as I still love surfing. Still love it, but winging is just so much easier. So I'm just enjoying the fact that you can just drive down the road two minutes from the shop and jump in the water and have a good to ask question. I'm sure you relate to being busy, having a shop and a brand. I was going to ask you cause you're probably one of the only guys that I know actually, who has the shop and the brand. So you it's a funny scenario sometimes to kind of way to cap or you think. Yeah, we're definitely similar in that respect. I've been in business since 1993, so it's been, like almost 30 years soon. And I learned over the years to delegate, try to delegate as much as they can. And definitely the shop is run runs more or less without me being there all the time. So I'm fortunate that way to be able to take care of that kind of the backend stuff. And then do you try to get in the water and so on? But your feet, like before you got into Wingfoot and you were definitely into more to stand up paddling and stand up surfing and all that. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And like looking at your store sales, like how does foiling compared to standard palling? I know for us, like during the whole pandemic standard paddling has been super popular and, people just getting in the water, especially entry level boards and equipment has been selling really well for us. How has it been? I think to be honest, it's been refreshing just with the whole foil thing taking off and new Zealand's quite a small market, so set pedal got pretty, pretty saturated pretty quickly here. Like everyone has this standup paddleboards may, maybe I'm not focusing on it that much anymore, but it just the largest sort of chains they bought in huge volumes of stand-up paddleboards and. I just I just love the fact, I think I've jumped on foiling because it's pretty hard to replicate. It's quite Dean Nicole, and it's kinda, I love that kind of specialized, part of it. And I feel like it's not going to get saturated too quickly, stand-up pedal did, but I'm definitely going to push stand up. I went for one the other day. Actually, there wasn't any wind, so it was, there were waves. So it was actually refreshing to get on a wave. You can't I dunno, you can't compare that feeling to winging, but yeah, it definitely looks, yeah, I was pretty sucked dominated wasn't I back in the, yeah same as I was in our shop, and we're still, for our shop, we still are, so it's a majority of our sales are still Santa paddle. Boards and, I still stand up paddle eye and I just go into racing and that kind of stuff. We have a training group that meets every Wednesday and so on. Still doing that, but it's definitely like my, when I have time to go in the water, I usually try to go on a windy day so I can go a wink. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You're going to go back up to the top here. Yeah, and I started standup foiling, but then once I got on a wing for a boy, just being able to be on the foil the whole time that to me made was so cool. Just to be able to be up on the foil for your whole session, pretty much not have to paddle it back out again, so that's definitely a draw, a wink flailing. Yeah. Yeah. And not have to use the jet ski so much. I think about it like. Everybody's got their own jet ski, holding onto the wing. You're just getting towed back out to the lineup. It's crazy. Yeah. And no pollution, no noise. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. I guess recently you had the America's cup in New Zealand and and I guess, tell us a little bit about that you had this posted this video of you guys foiling in between the races. Yeah, it's been honestly pretty crazy with all the America's cup stuff going on lately. I think we're pretty lucky to have all the best sailors in the world in one location, for the last year, two years it was, it's just been crazy. This, yeah. Okay. This year was a bit of a mission. So earlier in the, in this story, I meet the helicopter pilots. They came into the shop and they want some wind gifts or, yeah, like everybody's into this thing. So even the pilots filming this, filming these races yeah, we want to win. They came in the shop and then I just said, Oh, we might be out there. Cause there were a bunch of us. I grabbed Josh from the shop and an Olympic say it was snowy. And we just went out to the course and I just said, look, there's going to be a chance we're going to be out there. We might be near the course, if you want to do a sneaky little fly by maybe in between races. I just had my fingers crossed. They saw us, but they saw us and it was crazy. It's actually about five knots of wind here. I, so it was hard to get on the foil. It looks as though it's like windier than it is, but it's pretty light. So we all got up on the fall, luckily and heard the sound of the choppers come over. We couldn't really believe it that they were going to film us in between the race, but I guess it's cool because it was on the live YouTube feed. We get this kind of, it's pretty sweet getting this around the world. So yeah, they came over and like they were filming us super close. Like I've there was one pass. The chopper came over and I the wash from the blades, just seeing the wing and fly into my face and I just got nailed, but it was awesome. So we were, that was like an awesome memory. We got back to the boat ramp at an hour after dark and cause everybody's gotta go five knots back after the races. So there's all these sort of boats. It's crazy. Just the most amount of boats you can imagine just going five knots the whole way back to Auckland the city. So now that was that was it was a cool day. Yeah. Yeah there's, those sailboats are just amazing. And I guess they're really driving the technology of the whole foiling technology and computer science and all that kind of stuff for it. It's really amazing stuff that they're doing and the amount of money they're spending on it too. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, I was talking to the American magic guys. A couple of them. I shouldn't say this. I think they spend up to about, I think 150 million and, they do a couple of races and are out and it's pretty brutal. So I got pretty as I was gutted at the time for them. Cause I got to know them pretty well, quite a few of the silence for American magic and yeah, it was just outside of the house actually when I put the hall through the boat. So yeah, it just goes to show the gear is. Really pushing the limit and that, that close to breaking everything. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Pull that was pulled goodness. And so he's the tremor for American magic. So he stands beside Dean Barker. Who's this, who's the helmsmen. And he's been like, as soon as they're out of the cup he's been like winging every day. I think he just takes me just then he came for a win. So it will be all these guys are temporarily unemployed, so they, it's pretty, pretty cool to see. When he like every single opportunity. That's awesome. Yeah. So a little backstory. Like we met and stayed in touch, and then you had emailed me like that you're coming out with your own wings and if I wanted to try one, so I said, sure. Send me a sample to test. And then I got it and I was really impressed. It's the, it was my favorite wing. I've tried so far and I've tried a lot of different wings just as really nice handling and smooth power and has that lofty feel, and is this a great wing? So congratulations on that. And I've seen a bunch of footage of myself. Using the way the PPC Wayne, this is my friend, Jeff doing a one-handed jump, but a lot of this is shot with a GoPro max. That's mounted on a pole on my back. But yeah, so I just wanted to ask you a little bit about the, the whole process of making your own wing design and, the how you, the whole process of doing that, and how he came up with that design. Yeah. Again, long it's a bef the wings came out and it was, I think it was yeah. 2000. Where are we now? 2000. So it was 2009 into 2019. When the first bunch of wings came out on the market. Something like that one, two years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. We, I, yeah, so I made sure I got pretty much when they first came in and so I had a good amount of time using quite a few different brands and stuff and figuring out like, pretty quickly, like what I like. And didn't like, I it was funny when I first grabbed a wing, I was like, sweet. I just grabbed my stop, a little foldable, which is 80 liters and went down to the light near the shop and I just got owned and everyone laughed at me. So I went back off and got like 140 liter board and then I got it. But I've only got a little bit of exciting background. Like I said, optimist when I was a kid. So I don't have a huge sales background. So mainly just surf or board. So I got it, but I was pretty surprised at how quickly, like I progressed. And then understood quickly, like what a win should be or how it needs to feel to be an all round or kind of what you want. So I kinda, they locked down happened. So then it forced us. We were, I was living at manga magnify at the time, which is an hour North of here. It's kinda this cool little area with thousand people and it's got an inlet and a bar and it's really good place to taste and stuff. Luckily I had the jet ski as well I just started going for it really with with getting wings made and getting them seen and tasted them. I think we did about 29. 30 prototypes. Can you go a little bit into the the different variables that you tested in the prototypes and what made you yeah. And what the final design was based on? Yeah I S I worked alongside a top seller maker and like we, so we started with a frame, we had something to begin with. And then from there, the main, there are so many different things that we played around with, but the span the leading edge diameter, that was actually probably one of the trickiest to get, right. We went, too small, two 32 with the Strat and the leading edge. The leech tension was like a huge one. And I was lucky enough to actually talk to some top sellers here and they used the wing and checked it out. And, we we've had some pretty top people looking at the wings through the prototyping process. Which is pretty unique. So yeah, just to get like the F the first wings were flappy and they weren't that good. So that through Twitter, I'm making these fine adjustments. We even got a pretty good wing around like 15 or something. And then we just tweaked a few things handle positioning was probably one of the hottest, just going back and forth. Just to get these things balanced. Cause yeah I just found that so many wings were kinda, too far at the back or too far the front or something. And I don't know, I just this pure kind of middle kind of feel that you can just power on with you backhand. So that's the goal and it was amazing. It's millimeters with handles. Like we'd go a millimeter too far back, and then we'd have to go, a little bit through the forward and just get them right. But yeah we got there in the end and just, we were able to kind of video from the jet ski and just, see the thing flexing in the air if there was too much flakes or, we got to a point where we got pretty happy. It was pretty rigid. It was, on 90 kg and it was yeah. I feel like it's the combination with between, li like the white the balance and the path, without being too bulky, it is nothing worse to me than a bulky one. It's hard to use. And yeah. What was the dishes disadvantage of going with a thicker leading edge? Cause I find It's the Wayne where it's great, but the tips are pretty flexible actually, right? It's not that it doesn't feel super rigid. The structure of the tips of the wing anyway, when you go to yeah. When you go too thick, every time we went to too thick and the leading edge, it just lighter stuff. It's okay when you go when, but as soon as the wind just, decreases a little bit, it just doesn't fly quiet ride. It just, it's just a little bit too bulky and slow, and it's amazing how much the thickness adds to weight. That's what we were figuring out. It's yeah. So it's such a fine line between getting it right. I think as thin as you can go by, but while keeping the frame as rigid as you can. And in saying that it sounds really simple, but it was different. The wing was definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to be involved with, designing and prototyping and made boards that people really easy. The thing I really like about the wing is how nice it flies in neutral, when you're on a wave and you're just holding it next to you behind her, just flutters and sits there really like it's very well behaved. It's like a well-behaved dog on a leash versus the other wings. You always have to control them, the other wings are, they don't just sit there in neutral as well. Yeah. So what, how did you have it, was that part of the prototype process too, or? Yeah, a hundred percent. Cause that's a big thing for me. I love surfing. So when I'm on a wave, when I'm winging it, I definitely want to be as unmindful or whatever the word is of the wing as possible. Just to forget about it when you're riding. So I thought, yeah, with the design, without saying too much, it was definitely the Strat, which played a big part in that. And just bringing it a a little bit lower bringing it down a little bit compared to the leading edge which definitely helps Stabilize it my, my dad's a pilot, so I've got a little bit of flying background. I've got I nearly got my PPO, but I've got to do a few more hours, but I do have a bit of knowledge with flying. Actually the coolest experience I've ever had was definitely been in a glider. And like I noticed is it two to one for a fringe trench wing? I think he's, I don't know how to pronounce his name, but I can see, he glides he skis and does all this stuff and he puts it all together. You can see that he just puts it all together and it's pretty cool. Yeah. I recently just watch a video of him doing some amazing stuff on the waves, right? Yeah. He's pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. That's my goal for sure. So just point breaks, wives the place that, you were in a power in a way with with the oven that that's a pretty cool spot for the wing when the winter. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have my stuff on my gear over there when we were there for the standard paddle race. But but yeah and I decided to say thanks to Dan Regan who invited me over there and he's our distributor and a distributor in New Zealand. And he's really, he really got into Wingfoot link two years where he was more of a standup paddler and then he got into stand up foiling and now he's heavily into winging. And I think he said that you got one of your wings too, right recently. Yeah, he did. He's loving it. So I saw him last week, caught up with him for a quick coffee. He's good to have around. He's a bit of a froth, so he's yeah he grabbed it and loves it. So that's good. We're yeah we're getting a few wings out for sure. And New Zealand, so yeah, it sounds like you've been selling out every time you get them in. Like how many have you sold so far of the, I think we might've sell it about 250, maybe in New Zealand. Mostly it's just in New Zealand. That's just New Zealand. Yeah. So that's, it's not too bad. Because New Zealand only has what like 7 million population. Yeah. Five I think. Oh, 5 million. We have a lot of sheep, so yeah. No, I think it's about five, just over five. So yeah, it goes to show the amount of people that write, who are into watersports here. Yeah. It's pretty cool. But yeah, it's pretty satisfying seeing the wings out there flying well and getting really good feedback. And yeah, one of the big things for me is just listening to customers and just getting really, and just listening to them with feedback. And, some of them might say some crazy stuff, but some of them, a lot of your customers say pretty stuff that you should listen to. So that's been definitely one of my designing definitely got always listened to the customer. Yeah. So what about your board? We've got your boards in the store from Dan, which is cool. So we're starting to sell a few of those people are loving them. Yeah. That's awesome. Good. Glad to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for carrying our boards. Appreciate that. And then, yeah, I was going to say then this drawn footage I'm using the four eight, and then in the other footage, I was using the three eight analysis of a five eight. So you have basically one F one meter increments. Two eight three eight four eight five eight, right? Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of companies use percentage increments, but I wanted to keep it pretty simple. And we tried that with prototyping and we tried percentage increments, but it just worked out that 2.8, 3.8, 4.8 and 5.8. Worked really well for the size and for the wind range that, that designed for, yeah. I was surprised that duo is going with past meter increments. Yeah, they're doing like four or 4.5, five and 5.5 and so on. And but I don't know anybody that's going to buy every single size in that range. So it's like people want to only buy a one wing actually. Yeah, they do. I'm trying Convince people they need to for the whole wind range. And yeah, one of my things when designing the wing was definitely to design, like the 3.8 to me has quite a big wind ranch, like depending on what foil you're going to use, I can use a 3.8 and like 10 knots up to 25, which is pretty cool. And that's what a lot of customers are saying as well that out the wind range without wings is really good for the size. So I noticed quite a few bigger wings on the bucket didn't really have the path that they should have had for the size. And that was my key thing. So making them as small as possible for as powerful as you could possibly give them. But I think there's a long way to go. I think we're only scratching the surface. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. I think there's. It's definitely a lot of opportunity for improvements. Yeah, especially I think the wings and the foils too are, and just seems like the foils keep getting better too. Actually I w so what kind of food, what's your favorite foil to use right now? What brand and what foil wings do you like to use? Ooh, putting me under the pressure here. Cause I, I know the guys at Armstrong pretty well. AMI and vivid and stuff. I'm loving the Armstrong stuff. Yesterday I went fishing with Adrian Roper who does exits, so I'm using a bit of that. And I've been using a little bit of Moses as well, but I'm kinda coming back to Armstrong a lot for winging, just cause the white and jumping and it feels pretty good on it, my fate, but it's funny these questions cause you know, by having a shop, I've got a, I've got have the sh the shop cap on, and yeah, like the wing is probably like half the weight of an access foil with aluminum. Yeah. Access has that way. It's sometimes it's not a disadvantage of, it makes it feel more solid somehow and more rigid and a lot of people loving it. Yeah. And the access, on the Armstrong foils, which what's your favorite wing T wings to use? I kind of chop and change between, I don't really ride anything over the 15, 15 hour, if it's super light maybe the 1850, but it's between the eight 50 and the 1250. I and depending on what board I'm on. So if I'm on a little board and it's windy I've got a 33 liter little four O so I'll probably use the eight 50. And then if it's a little lighter, I'll probably use like a 60 liter board with the 1250 or 1550. It's 1250 as a lot of Lyft, actually. That's a really good fishing foil. It's pretty, it's got a big window in Arik and it's a good one. Like for point breaks and stuff you can pump through sections and yeah. I'm just loving love. It's cool. Being able to, it's cool. Actually not having my own foil and being able to try all these different foils right now. I know you've got your own foil, but you use anything, right? Yeah. I've been trying everything and I mean our Carver foils are the ones that we are on. Those are more, a little bit more entry-level are they really easy to use and forgiving and stuff, but they're not super, they're not the most high speed and most high-performance ones. Yeah. So I've been playing around with a lot of different foils while at the moment. Like I recently just started using the axis eight, 10. Have you tried that one? It's yeah, that's a really nice one. I really liked that one a lot. Before that I was using mostly the seven 60, which is also one of my favorites. It's a really good seven 60. And if it's really like the eight 62. But yeah, those are and then on the Armstrong, 1250, or even a 10 50, it's pretty fun doing in waves. Yeah. It's very current. Yeah. Talk a little bit about boards. You just emailed me a picture of second late latest prototype. Yeah, let me, so they talked a little bit about board design and what you like to use and stuff like that. Yeah. So we've, we were lucky enough to have a shape next to the shop. And it's been really cool with prototyping and just get the made so I can see the blank and get them done pretty quick and take them out on the water pretty fast. But yeah, so I'm gonna bringing out a new model, which is slightly wider. I just feel like, yeah, my, this model is, it was pretty good. The only thing, it probably lacked a little bit of stability, maybe, for the bigger, slightly bigger new people for the board linked. So I kinda, it's probably what you're doing, I'm just trying to get as much volume as possible and keep a swing right down. Trying to keep a pretty parallel line and a kind of a square towel after this board had a port entail. And I kinda, I, I realized, that it's okay for some people, but, you want to make it easy as possible, right. For people to grow, to grow the sport or whatever. So yeah. These are wider than a Dick concave, which is proving to be pretty cool. Yeah. And a, yeah, you have two stringers in there. Yeah. Two cabin stringers that go right through and right through to the front of board through the track to the back. And yeah, I'm going to do a arrange of bullets made in New Zealand, which is a different thing for me. I've always got most things made off shore. So I think that after the pandemic is being a support local kind of thing. So yeah, I'm going to, there'll be a ranch here made in New Zealand, so it's cool. Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. And the bottom shape, like what kind of contours do you have on the bottom of the board? So pretty smooth, kinda, it's just a double kind of double barrel kind of concave that actually runs through the whole board now. I've smooth it out a little bit, not so drastic. And then the board's got the same amount of nose Carrick and a little bit of tau kick. I find quite handy getting up on the foil when you're whinging, but yeah, it's, the bottom is like our first model, but just, it just continues. The concaves just continue straight through straight out in the back. Just getting the motor would have flow through the board or whatever. But yeah, it seems to be working pretty well. It's probably it's took it out the other day. I had a few people using it and yeah, people, so the size that it's pretty stable. Yeah. On the wings, the biggest, you touched on it a little bit, like the biggest size you make right now is 5.8. Is that correct? Or do you make a bigger one? Yeah, I was going to say personally, I find that like, when you go too big on the wing, it like, cause it also increases the wing span and it's it tends to touch easier on the water. And you end up not getting. That much more power by adding more surface area. It seems is that kind of what you're thinking? Like I know some companies make seven meters even bigger than that wings, but I've never, I've tried, but I've never had the desire to buy one that big, because it seemed like at that point I'd just rather not go winging and do something else. Yeah. I totally agree. My thoughts. Exactly. I think there's even like a nine out there maybe, but yeah. I a hundred percent agree. I feel like when you're holding something that cumbersome, it yeah. I don't know. It's odd to handle it. Just go towing, go surfing, go fishing. No, I, yeah I don't know. I'm considering doing something around six. But on the only, only considering, but I'd rather play around with new materials and see if we can get the same amount of grunt and just reduce the weight a little bit before we just start going bigger to get more efficiency. Cause I think that possibly maybe with a material change in the design change, we don't have to go bigger to get more pal. Yeah. Interesting. You talking about materials? I just talked to Todd from ocean rodeo yesterday and about there, they're coming out with the Lula fabric frame, leading edge and and this which is like a super light material, and still very strong that lighter weight. So is that what you're talking about? New materials is, are you considering those. Yeah, I had it. Yeah. I had to look, I knew someone was going to come out with that about a year ago or two years ago. I looked at that material, but wise just, wasn't it doable with production, but it's different. It's pretty cool that someone's doing it. I think I've got a couple of things going on right now in New Zealand, but I'll keep you in the loop with, but yeah, I the pricing is crazy. It's like twice as much as a regular wing house in terms of, yeah, like right now, I think like recreation wise I'm really happy actually with what we have and everybody getting into it, you can almost, yeah. When you change materials and you make them super, super efficient, you're kinda dealing with a pretty small market. I think we're going to go there when we start racing if we do. But my things in the surf and in the waves, but I guess with every sport we're probably gonna, it's probably gonna go rice, isn't it? With wing on my thoughts and then I think we will see some pretty drastic material changes. Like you do, with the Moss, the four-lane Moss, the sails are carbon cloth, like super, super thin been through a few international Semite, Sal makers factories here in Oakland. And I've seen some pretty cool stuff being produced, but again, it's, cost-wise, I don't think people are going to pay 3000 or 2000 us for. Oh, they might, for always want to have the best, so if something is clearly clear, then I think people will buy it, but it has to be significantly better it's for them to spend that much money, I think. But yeah, I was going to talk about the handles real quick too. I find myself on a 3.8 and 4.8 using mostly the widest grip, the front handle and the back handle. And then on the five eight, I use like the middle handle in the back. Is that the same, like you do or is that how you design them or, yeah, I go to the Y I go to the widest group as possible and least it's if it's absolutely nuking, I'll probably use a smaller wing anyway. So I think with every wing I used the widest possible, but I've got a pretty wide span. I actually went a little bit narrower. But do you find the, have you used the widest the front and the back and the 5.9, do you think that's a little bit too wide? Is it is it both ways? And sometimes when I if I want to jump out, grab the back handle, but for regular riding, I find that on the five, eight, the second to last handle in the back work better for me, for some reason. I dunno. Yeah. And I think it's just going to change with everybody's spans and whites and styles and, sorry. You think it needs more handles? I noticed some manufacturers. I came from the, I came from the duotone wings w whichever, boom. And then, yeah. Yeah. And for so it took me a while to get used to the handles, to be honest when attacking and stuff like that. I would miss the handle though. I'd have to look where to grab and, but, over time you're going to get used to it. And now I can actually pretty much find the handle without looking for it most of the time, but having the rigid handle definitely has an advantage. And then I dunno, I think that's something that could be improved so on the wings is like the handles. I think having the center inflatable center strap really helps with keeping the wing on the water, floating. And then also when you're flying on the wave, it's a neutral, it keeps it flying straight, it doesn't take talk back and forth, like the, without the center strata tends to do that wandering thing, instead of slacking. And. But yeah, and that's what when I did the interview with Alan cadets, he mentioned that to the new duotone slick wing, cause it has an inflatable center strategy. It's more at handles nicer because of that. But yeah, I think that's something, I think I just had to get used to the handles too, but it took me a little while to figure that out. Cause the nice advantage of having the stiff boom is that you can just slide your hand back and forth and you can just grab it anywhere. And then bringing it out. The water is easy to grab underneath the wing and describe the handle. So it took me a little while, but now that I'm used to the handle, I think it just as this is good and it definitely feels a lot lighter without the boom. I tried to make the handles like as rigid as possible. So it had a Bloomfield. Cause a lot of people in New Zealand and obviously in Maui and everywhere and Hawaiian wind surfers who are quite boom orientated, but there's been a few people hardcore boom guys that have used outwin who've just gone. Yeah, no, this is cool. We can deal with an inflatable Strat now. And so that's cool. So you sold about 250, there's a New Zealand. I find that amazing. Is that like when you go out on the water or like more than half of the people on your wings are like, yes. Yeah. I think like we we we are actually the only ones in New Zealand with a shop, whether on brand. And I think that helps to be on it, and there is actually no one in New Zealand. These is Armstrong, but you know that they're more international. Yeah, I focus pretty heavily on the local market. It's pretty good for me and, but I just really wanted to have a good wing. So my goal was never to just rush and put cause I had an opportunity to put a wing out straight away when the first ones arrived, but I just waited. I just really wanted to put a good wing out and yeah. So w we'll just update probably every year I've noticed a couple of other brands have updated quite a few, some are on like generation three or four or something now. But I think I'm going to just every single year. Yeah. Have a different version and we're working on it now, but it's a long way off yet. And yeah, right. Yeah. So anyone in the U S if you're interested in these wings, you can get them from us at blue planet surf. And I'm finding just to come out with, I told you I would make a video about the wings and I'm planning to still do that. Probably post that a little bit after this interview posts, but yeah, let's talk a little bit about just wing foiling in general, and then, some other random stuff, but can you talk a little bit about where you're at with your wing foiling and like what you're working on? Do you have any new moves that you're working on or what are you into these days? It's hu it's tricky one. Yeah, I think for me now I've been going to the Lake a little bit to test product, but now I'm just every time that winds up, I'm looking for a surf spot. So it's and this is why I find winging really cool, because it's I I didn't mention that before, but it's bringing all these different kinds of sports together. So you've got sailors and surfers and all these different kinds of sports coming together. And I'm noticing, the sailors, they love going fast. They love putting on a NHA wing and, or, smaller wing and going fast. It's not official, but my friend snowy, he's an Olympic style that he got like 30 knots here the other day, which is pretty fast, I think for winging. And then for me yeah, it's definitely finding surf spots. So finding point breaks and. I like wave riding. And the wing is just the answer, you don't have to get the jet ski all fueled up and go. Although when there's no wind, I love toe foiling. But yeah, for me, what I'm working on right now, I guess just going bigger. So bigger is like hitting the rents. You guys, it looks as though you got some pretty sweet conditions over your way. You'll so you definitely try to get in the waves too, but I find that sometimes, for winging or spoiling in general, you don't necessarily want to have the biggest steepest waves. You just want a, more of a mellow not too steep of a wave basically. Cause it's hard to control the foil and the faster steeper wave, unless you have, if you're tall, you, then you can use a tiny foil. So it's a little different. Yep, exactly. I reckon you need it's you need a really good combination of waves and wind. If you're going to drop your foil size. Especially if you're out somewhere on a point break and the tide's going out, like you you don't want to be stranded out there. And so I'm going, there's no one board that I'm using at the moment. So if I'm playing on a point break, I'm gonna use a board with a bit more volume because at least it's like really nuking. I don't really want to get stuck out there with nothing. And Paula noise is pretty shocky. Is that Paul? I knew he, like, when I was there, the wind was like straight off shore. Is it, is that the normal conditions there? Or they getting like Southeast, which comes right out the beach, which is pure crusher. So it's yeah. So it's perfect. It just comes straight up and hits the point. So you're just like round and round. And I dunno, I think even goes out for seven hours. He gets in trouble with the wife. That's such a beautiful place. Yeah. Yeah. What are you working on? I w all kinds of stuff that I like one that I've been trying to pull off. This is my friend Daniel trying to do backflips. There's a couple of of he's starting to do that, and I'm thinking about it, but I haven't really throw myself backwards yet, but I have been trying to do the spins, into the wind, like turning the board through the wind, and then it's weird, cause I landed a couple of them. By the first time I tried them. My first session, I tried it, I landed a couple. And then since then, like that was like three or four months ago. And I haven't been able to land a single one since. And I think it's all the way, getting the wing right on the landing, it's tough. Same thing happened to me. Yeah. It's almost I don't know what, cause I, I used to be able to do threes and rodeos and back flips and front flips on skis and the snow. And then I thought, but I dunno with the whole wind thing, when you get here it's definitely a lot of, and that's why all these wind surfer, these guys like balls and stuff, they just know exactly where to put the wing in the wind to help rotate you around, which is, yeah, I need to try it a lot more. When I did a three, I keep the wing just facing one way and I passed the handles around it's I did it, but it's probably not the right way to do it, but it would have for me, that's us Dean is doing it too and stuff, but yeah, you did that way. If you do it that way, you just have to stick the landing perfectly. Cause you don't have any power in the wing if, until you grab it again, and so when you teach beginners or you get people into winging, what are your, like your top tips to give to beginner wing feathers? I'm in the shop cause we teach people we've got a jet ski luckily, and we take people out and teach them how to foil first, before the wings so that they don't have to at the same time to do together, which I think is crazy. I think you should do it. I, my opinion, I think you should learn to foil first and then grab a wing, play with it on the land, maybe jump on a skateboard or something, but get a feel for the wing and then combine them and put them together. But I'm always just saying, just go big, just go bigger than you think with everything. So big with a board, big with a foil and and yeah just make it easy and go out when there's wind. So 15 knots all over. When you're putting it all together. Yeah, definitely. When you're starting out it's hard. It's you need more power to get it going, like bigger wing, bigger foil, more wind. And then as you get better, it seems like you can go down in size with everything because once you figure out how to pump it up and get it going. Exactly. Yup. Yeah. Any other tips? And then there's the whole, cause there's a whole thing. Like I think there's a fear with people buying a board that's maybe too big and then they progress and need a smaller board. At the shop in New Zealand, we're gonna, we're going to lease some bigger boards. So it's seven foot by 32 kind of barges. We're just going to lace them and just the people can learn without maybe buying a board straight away. Then I'm going to buy it back and resell it again or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's kinda, it's probably not like the greatest business side, profit idea, but I think it will grow the sport, what we need to do. I think. Yeah. I think you're right. The, it definitely, the, it's definitely much easier to learn on a bigger board. These, this board I'm using as a wing, the wing master for four six, and like it's no, no good to learn on. It's just too small and too to, get on your knees and it's tippy and hard to use. And, but once you get the basics down, then that's kinda what you can use, so you all grow a big board pretty quickly. And I usually tell people, try to get a used one or borrow one from a friend or something like that instead of spending, and don't spend a lot of money on a really big board anyways, because you're going to offer exactly. Yep. And yeah it's not most affordable sport in the world, but yeah it's quite a bit of gear. It's what quite a few people maybe put off with the gear or whatever, but I think that's definitely going to become more affordable and a lot of different options. This set up here is actually one of the first times I used the PPC wing. I think I was the second day I use it and right away I felt really comfortable on it. Oh really? I brought it right away. Pretty balanced and yeah, no, that's a great way. It is. It did a good job on that. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about just life in general. In terms of what else are you interested in? And do you have any hobbies or cross training or other sports or interests. Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to taking the wing to the mountains and I'm like jumping off some cliffs. I've seen some cool footage with Kai and stuff lately. So that's been pretty sweet and yeah, we just saw I'm really pumped on like winter coming, which is weird. Cause yeah. So I'll definitely be taking the wings to the mountain. Where do you go? I guess on the South Island you go where do you go and which model? Hopefully down South, I've got some friends in Wanaka and Queenstown. And so we'll stay down there. Actually. That's another thing, a lot of people are just winging on the lakes down here. I'm like, it's perfect in the summer they get heaps of wind. So a lot of people are yeah. Loving it down there at the moment. So yeah, there's that. And then I play a bit of golf. And then I like fishing, cause it takes my mind off. Boiling. Cause I do it for, a job like you. I dunno. How do you get away from it all? A good question. I just try to do stuff that's meditative and not yeah. Where you can clear your mind, and I love to go hiking actually. Like I was a score on solo hikes, try to go where no one else is around and just get out in nature and immerse myself and not listen to anything and just try to be almost empty, just clear the mind, basically not think about stuff too much. Yeah. Finding golf balls the other day golf course. Yeah. I really got into golfing. I figured that's something I can do when I get old for me. Yeah. It really takes my mind off things. You have to focus. Yeah. I You have to focus on what you're doing. Yeah. That's quite frustrating. Like a daily routine. Like when you get up in the morning, first thing, there's certain things you just do it as a routine. I usually just get up and have a. Have a call. I have a coffee with my family four year old Tanika and and I'll check the wind straight away. So like I never used to check wind charts, but everyday it's just chicken, the wind shot straight away. It used to be a swell chart that kind of chatting. So I'm checking that. And then and then it's kinda, no, I don't think I'm a UAE with a shop, so I've just got to be a little bit involved there. And so what's yeah. So what's your typical day? Like a day in your life or what's it like? Typical day, get up, check the wind. If there's wind I'll definitely win. Cause I've got staff, I've got Denise in the shop she's really organized and I'm pretty lucky there. I'll try and hit out of the water. If I can't hit out of the water I'll come into the shop and I'll pretty much figure out what I need to do to work on the wings. So the boards, or I'll go next door and have a look at some blanks and pretty much, and then just deal with a bit of production emails, how it is that affects tree stuff. Just make sure everything it was running smoothly. Really. There's no day where, every day different, which I love and if I can get out, and that's why I love winging so much lately, because with when it was busy through the summer, I could at least get out on the water for an hour and just recharge with the wing and to get back to the office a little bit. And then, yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty cruisy guy. Get back, watch him, watch a movie with a family. Pretty chilly. You have a four year old, this is a Boyer girl. Izzy girl. And I can't wait to take her and get her into this, so I think she's ready to get on the foil board with me. Nice. Yeah. That's, it's cool too. That seems like the younger generation is really interested in it too. This sport just has such a broad appeal, which is which I find cool. It's not just us older guys, yeah, exactly. That's what I think a lot about lately with wings and stuff and boards just, yeah. Designing them for kids actually. And just I go, I went around quite a few of the yacht clubs here and a lot of New Zealand has a pretty good reputation for the sailors. I think in a lot of the clubs were looking at winging as a form to teach the kids how foil works. With the latest America's cup stuff, it's how many kids would just fall on it. So I think, yeah it's actually an affordable way. How to figure out how foil works. The wings sit up. I was going to ask you, when you when you're wing feeling, do you switch your stance or do you keep it like in place? Like I do I keep it in place? Yeah. I'm a surfer. Yeah. If people are people have somebody all the time about it, but I don't really care. I've learned twisting and point my back foot, you forward a little bit to open up my body and I can put pretty high now on my backside. Oh, check this out. This is my friend Derek he's. He has like lines on his wing so he can hold it way up high. It's like almost a cross between winging and cutting, so it's like most of you. What about you guys switching your stance? Are you guys staying in the sear stance? My good friends are staying in the surf stance, and I think, especially when you're using really small boards, it's, that makes it hard to, to switch. But I think one, once you if you didn't learn to do it in the beginning on a bigger board, yeah. It's really hard to figure it out on a small board. It's just most simple. Yeah, I did it at the I did it the other day and it just felt like I was learning for the first time. So maybe that's something I'll work on actually switching my stance because I know for a fact it's going to be bitter. If you're doing the GAAP, when reaches and stuff, you just point high a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, I just realized did I wasn't sharing my screen. Huh? I thought I was screen-sharing this whole time. Sorry. I thought that I just going along with it. Oh geez. Okay. I got to show this. I got to show this footage of Derrick. Again, so that just realize it didn't have my screen sharing on wait I to go back here, but Schutz. Yeah, I've been playing video footage and was talking about it's full time, but Derek Yamasaki, his name says this footage is pretty cool. It's got lines on the wing. It's like way up high. It's kinda cool because when it, when the wing is higher off the water, you get more power to, yeah. Cause it's a little bit windier up higher. Let's talk a little bit about the whole pandemic and all that. How has it affected you? And I know New Zealand is one of the few places where that's been relatively unaffected by the pandemic. Normal life is pretty much, you guys are pretty much back to normal. Yeah. Yeah, I feel I was pretty lucky. Honestly, it's yeah, it would be, we've had it pretty good. We've had a couple of lockdowns that we, business, the business had to be shot, which is it's pretty tough shutting up is, but, I looked at other countries it's way worse. So I actually, yeah we kinda, when the pandemic happened, we would go to level three and we can all just say can we wing? And we'd, we'll just meet up down at the local wing spot and we could at least wing in kinda hit the water and go for walks and stuff. But yeah I feel like we're in our little bubble here. Yeah. Especially with the older America's cup stuff going on. It's yeah. I just feel pretty lucky that you guys have you guys been in a similar kind of. I know, we've had several shutdowns and and a lot of people out of work cause there's no tourism and stuff like that. So it's been a lot of people pretty seriously, yeah. That, that definitely a lot of tourism sort of companies down in, especially Queenstown down South, relying on. I think, some of these America's cup sailors staying in hotels and then a lot of the only ones at the moment. And I spoke, talking to the hotel managers saying that, you'd have to book a year in advance this time of the year. So it's certainly affected tourism. And but I think we're just fortunate enough to be in this industry. And a lot of people just, they need it, they need to take their minds off things. Wing, foiling, surfing, and these sort of sports have been pretty busy like busier. And I think we've seen that. With supply demand issues in factories, things like that. But yeah. Yeah. And you had a hard time getting enough inventory of your boards and stuff like that. We were having issues with that. We can't, we don't have enough boards and stuff. A hundred percent. Yeah. We were, we run out of bullets of return mounts even. I always have boards in production. I get some of my boards made in Vietnam and it doesn't matter where, so yeah. And fright has tripled or nearly quadrupled in price since three years ago. So it's difficult, but I'm making it work. So for people that are I know a lot of people during the pandemic, like being stuck at home, they feel lonely or, depressed or anxious and stuff like that. Like how, do you have any friends that go through that? And what would you tell people? Or do you have any advice on staying positive and living a good life? Cause I, I listened to Rob your podcast the other day and I agree with him. Don't listen to the news too much, and just get out there because yeah I think the city didn't use a lot and just get in, I dunno, just, it can really create a lot of anxiety. I think if you just, the sky is still blue, it's, if you can get out there and just enjoy it and safety yeah, I I've just been watching a lot of Netflix. That's the only thing, a lot of good Dockers on Netflix lately. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. There's a lot of good stuff then you don't know the formula one stuff was crazy seeing those guys, the new season three and how they handled the pandemic and they still made it work, and there's a lot on the line, I think. Yeah. The first one was canceled in Melbourne, but the, they still had a season of formula one and it's just a line in that sport. So it was cool to see like things are still continuing, but I'm traveling. That's pretty cool. Oh yeah, just having the America's cup here was, ah, it was just amazing, meeting up, having good chats with Jimmy and paid and Dean and stuff. Dean Barker. He's the helmsmen for. American magic. He's a Kiwi and he's he's learning to wing at the moment. So like he, yeah, he must be like, I don't know. I shouldn't say maybe 50, 50, 55, but there's, to me, there's like much of an age limit on whinging, which like, I love about it. It's huge. Like I had an 88 year old come in the shop the other day wanting to win and I'm going to teach him. That's awesome. So I'll teach him on that big board and I'll do it safely, Chuck a helmet on him, but I think also, so that'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about what you're saying about the the news and stuff like that. And I think on social media too, it's I guess they call it doom scrolling. It's once you start looking at those kind of Yeah, negative news and stuff. It just feeds you more, as like the more you look at it, the more it feeds you. And it just puts people in that state of it's like almost it's like poor design, I was like people that are already anxious, you get they just get more and more of that. And it's it's terrible. Yeah. There are a lot. I like to ditch my phone every now and then. I, w when I'm fishing the other day, I thought about checking it on the water, but no, I just, I, yeah, like when I know, cause I lived in California for a good year and a half and I I know how it is over there. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's kinda, it's not like New Zealand, so it's kinda, there's just a lot more noise. I feel like we're away from it a little bit here, but I can see in other countries how you can get pretty wound up in it. Even, yeah that's what you focused on too though, yeah. It's like you said, it's you know what you know what you don't have to look at it. You don't have to look at your phone all the time. No, I, honestly, I think a wing has kept me pretty sane the last year. It's been like, I'm just stoked. It's kind long. Who would have thought we'd be holding onto this wind thing and having such a blast. But it, I feel like it has actually say, be quite a bit like mentally, like to have this, to look forward to every single day. So it's been, yeah. It's yeah. It's going to be around for a long time. I think I don't think it's going anywhere. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. It's kept me saying to, for sure. Yeah, no, don't okay. Your videos and look at your more motor and tropical, consistent winds and stuff and get pretty jealous. So as soon as we can travel on, yeah, we're fortunate. But it's not always like this either, this week, we're not gonna have any wind, probably no wing floating for about a week. Sometimes people come here for a week and they think they're going to be winging every day, but it's not like that. Maybe 50% of the time. It's good, might come here for two weeks and not get any when you know, I'm, mommy is always windier. If you're coming, you want guaranteed wind. Definitely Molly's by the place to go more than a wahoo. Yeah, I love Maui because she goes, islands is like a funnel. It funnels the wind between the Westmont mountains and Holly, I believe it when we were playing from a wahoo to Maui and there was no window Oahu when we took off. And when we arrived in Valley, it was, did Palm trees were just like, it was like 30 knots. It was crazy capping everywhere. Yeah. It's pretty crazy like that for sure. I just, yeah the wing didn't exist then. So it was just downwinders. So you just pretty much started your business by yourself and grew it and did you have any help or partners or anything like that? No. So I feel kinda, it's funny cause like a lot of these companies around me and I've got quite a few people involved, I look at pretty much every company around me, like Armstrong, they et cetera. I feel like a bit of a small fry cause it's just me, but yeah it's almost it's not too bad being small because then you can do shorter runs and make sure that, your product's still at the top of the game. You can do it in a way where you don't have to have such a big sort of volume kind of machine. I dunno, it's hard to explain, but yeah, a lot of the other companies I'm looking at have 10, 20, 30 people we've just got a few it's just me and the factories and a couple of stuff in the shop. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anyone you want to thank for their support or that's there for you and. Just my panic, probably just for putting out with me and family and stuff and, everyone that supports me in New Zealand at the shop. And yeah, I'm just going to keep developing keep the product improving. That's my goal for the next few years, anyway, just to keep improving things. And right now you're doing mostly, most of your sales are just consumer directed. You're just dealing directly with the customers more than, yeah. It's directly with customers. And I think, yeah it's pretty unique to be able to just taste here in New Zealand. I think we've got a pretty cool place for testing. Like at the time where I was testing the wing, there was no one around, so that was pretty cool. Just being able to do that with no one, like coming up to me on the beach and but a guy like that is cool. And when I'm an Oakland, like you come out from the car pocket where we wing it tech burner, you're going about like 10 to 20 people around you sometimes like asking you what is this new sport? So it's pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And I, for people here in Hawaii, like going traveling to New Zealand is really nice because it's only one hour time difference, really. So you don't really even get jet lag, you instantly adjust to the different time zone. And then, that's a different day, but the hours, it's only one hour difference the daylight. And then you're in the opposite side of the planet. So it's your winters are summer and the other way around. So I guess it's nice for you guys to come to Hawaii in your winter when it's summer over here. The cuvees come here for that. Yeah. Definitely breaks up the winter. I feel like up North though, it's not too bad. I used to live down South freezing, you'll be winging with gloves on. And that's why I keep thinking about handles with gloves. Just making sure the gap's big enough, but for the colder parts of the world, it was the thing to keep it. I didn't think of that in the United see, went to Russia and the guy's ah, I'm using my three millimeter gloves. That's feeling a little tight. So I thought, Oh, dammit, maybe I'm going to have to make a bigger bet for the handles. But yeah, I dunno, just seeing these wings around like different parts of the world, especially like Russia and stuff. And it's crazy seeing, your own brand around the world w in Australia are I've got a guy over there, Jason, a wing man. He's doing pretty well. So people are loving the wings and ALS, so that's cool. Yeah, I think it's for me I kinda just love my life like right now. And I love my lifestyle and I think I don't want to grow super fast or get an investor on board. I'm happy just doing what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Self-funded, that's all, I think always the best way and just better to grow slower, but keep the ownership and be able to do. That's my philosophy and I guess we're actually similar in a lot of ways that, I volunteer shop. So a lot of direct. Yeah. Yeah. And you ship all around the us, right? Drop. Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of air cargo shipping. It's actually pretty affordable. We actually have free shipping on our website because we can, just included in the price when we sell so boards online. That's so cool. Yeah. So how about you? Do you ship to Australia too? Do you ship boards or mostly just your wings or everything, or, like it's a little bit harder, I think, for it to ship from New Zealand and yeah, it is, it's pretty expensive. So mostly the wing and that, that's a good thing about the wing it's been pretty affordable to to seeing around the world. Boards are another thing. I think if someone wants to sell bulls of stuff, go to Phillip and China. It's I think it's crazy if writing boards. I, yeah, I used to if like prototypes, which yeah, I think it used to be like 1200 New Zealand or something just for one little board. So it's quite cool being able to prototype and just prototype in a New Zealand now with the boards that but yeah, I think, yeah, the wing is great. It's so small. It just doesn't take up any storage as well. So I think. Yeah. Do you find that easy to totally it's easier than the board. You don't have to package it. It's already comes in a little box. Yeah. Unloading a container of SOPs is a big job or a few containers for you. I would say. Yeah, it is. I'm just looking at your background. It looks kinda like one of those fake zoom backdrops, but you earlier, you showed me your backyard. Can you show us your little pool and stuff yet? It's a real background. It's not a fake background. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I heard Baltz molar. Tal

It's a huge day for Emirates Team New Zealand who are within touching distance of retaining the America's Cup.The defender needs one more win - their 30 second victory in race nine has them leading the best of 13 race series 6-3.Yachting great Dean Barker joined Simon Barnett & Phil Gifford.LISTEN ABOVE

Vendetta cast episode 19....Chef Dean Barker, DJ, producer, Kill Break, Bawsfyte, Chopped on the Food Network...this guy does a lot of things!!  We chop it up about DnB, cancel culture, the many projects he has going on & more!! Follow Kill Break: Instagram/ @chefdeanbarker @bawsfyte @killbreak Facebook.com/ChefDeanBarker [@vendettamfg.co]

Martin Devlin chats to American Magic Helmsman Dean Barker, a week on from their elimination from the Prada Cup semi-finals - about where it all went wrong and his future as a helmsman in the America's Cup. 

The boys have a chat with fellow podcaster and former Mako No.10 James Marshall for some tips, John Day has some choice words for Dean Barker after American Magic's exit, and UFC trainer Mike Angove pops in to talk all things kickboxing, and talks Adasanya's dirty laundry... Literally. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

America's Cup teams are more likely to turn towards Olympic medalists and world champions when selecting helmsman in the future. Dean Barker has said he is unsure whether he wants to go around for another America's Cup cycle.The Kiwi helmsman's campaign with American Magic has ended after a 4-nil whitewash by Luna Rossa in the challenger semi-finals.Barker says it's too soon to know what's next for him."America's Cup will never be out of system. I can't really say what the future holds right now. It takes it's toll, for sure."AUT Sailing Professor Mark Orams told The Devlin Radio Show that this has been a three and a half year campaign that will need to be reviewed, not just the last few weeks, and Barker's future will be determined during that process. However, he says that they need someone more like a Peter Burling as helmsman - younger, world champion, Olympic medallist - and American Magic has that in Paul Goodison. "The future of the America's Cup sailors, in this foiling generation, doesn't look like a near 50-year-old, experienced statesman. It looks like a young up and coming guy, full of confidence, fighter-pilot type aggression in the way they approach the sailing.""Dean Barker still has value - he's very experienced, very respected - but in my view, it would probably be more view as a coach or someone who sat on the management of the team."He says there are 150 members of American Magic, not just Baker, but the helmsman usually gets most of the blame. LISTEN ABOVE

Sailing obituaries were already being drawn up for Dean Barker before American Magic had even ended its inglorious finish to the Prada Cup challenger series. But is it too soon to suggest his time on the helm of a Cup yacht is over? 

Sailing obituaries were already being drawn up for Dean Barker before American Magic had even ended its inglorious finish to the Prada Cup challenger series. But is it too soon to suggest his time on the helm of a Cup yacht is over? 

Martin Devlin chats AUT Sailing Professor Mark Orams, about America Magic's capsize yesterday, if he thinks they'll be ready for  the semi-finals in 11 days and how much responsibility Dean Barker should take in the dramatic capsize. 

New information on American Magic's capsize - was the hull damage caused by a loose battery pack? Tom and Mel chat with Richard Gladwell and Tom Ehman about what led to American Magic's Prada Cup disaster. Richard Gladwell has written books and photographed America's Cup campaigns all around the world since the early 1980's. He is currently editor of SailWorld NZ. Tom Ehman has been rules advisor, manager and in other roles for America's Cup teams for 3 decades. The last was the Oracle campaign that beat Team New Zealand in San Francisco in 2013.     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

American Magic have made an early statement on the America's Cup stage, following up their first-up demolition of INEOS Team UK with a solid victory over the defending Team New Zealand.In the final race of the opening day of the America's Cup World Series, Dean Barker's crew were hard to fault from start to finish; beating Team New Zealand at the start, matching them manoeuvre for manoeuvre and sailing a smooth race.It was a different story for the Kiwi outfit, who made a slow start and struggled to stay up on their foils in a race which was a far cry from the performance they had in their first-round win over Luna Rossa.Team New Zealand coasted into the starting box against American Magic, keeping a fair distance away from their opponent and while American Magic flew into the starting line, the Kiwis struggled to get up on their foils for the start of the race.Once they did, however, Peter Burling and co had a slight speed advantage and began to close the gap.Facing a slight deficit of 15 seconds after the opening leg of the race, the Kiwis maintained the distance down the second leg, but splashed down while tacking around the marker and went from trailing by 200m to trailing by 400m.The mistake proved costly down the third leg as American Magic held a 26-second lead halfway through the race.Team New Zealand were able to make up six seconds on the fourth leg and, with two legs to go, the final race of the day proved to be the competitive spectacle people were hoping to see.After a fifth leg that turned into a tacking duel, Team New Zealand managed to get the inside track around the marker, drawing a penalty against the Americans in the process, providing the opportunity to take the lead for the first time in the race.Whatever lead they had was shortlived, as they again touched down and lost some speed for just long enough for American Magic to sneak back ahead of them.Down the final leg, things were neck and neck between the teams – with just 12m separating them inside the final 900m of the course.Ultimately, American Magic found the right wind and burned off Team New Zealand late in the final leg to claim a 12-second win.It was the second win in as many races against the Kiwis for Barker, after the Yanks beat the host in a practice race earlier in the week.Team New Zealand made a big statement with their crushing opening win against Luna Rossa. Photo / Dean PurcellIn their opener against Luna Rossa, Team NZ led from start to finish, and the race looked over at the first mark.Te Rehutai crossed the line a staggering 3:13 ahead of the Italians, in what was an absolute, good old-fashioned smashing.The New Zealand crew was faster upwind, quicker downwind and better with their transitions in a result that will send shock waves through the Challenger fleet.The boats made an even start, though Burling had got over the top of Jimmy Spithill in the last period of the pre-start.There was a big split early on – well as large as possible with the narrow boundaries – and Team New Zealand made good ground on the left-hand side of the course.They made further gains – as the Italians struggled to stay on their foils – with plenty of positive talk on the Te Rehutai.Team New Zealand had a 41-second lead around the top mark, and extended further downwind, reaching speeds of more than 40 knots.They were more than a kilometre ahead at the bottom mark and the race already seemed a complete mismatch, with the local boat more than a minute ahead (1:13).The Italians weren't exactly slow – they hit 45 knots during the downwind leg – but couldn't make an impression on their opponents.Team New Zealand held a 1:15 lead when they went around the top mark the second time, and were flying at 47 knots when they completed the second lap.Nothing had changed at the bottom mark (1:17) and it was obvious that Team New Zealand have something special under the hood.Their advantage was 1.3 kilometres as they rounded the mark for th...

Dean Barker visits the show to talk about scaling UX to a large team, and general remembering the good old days.

An early morning chat for the boys with down to earth Kiwi Hamish Pepper. We talk Team New Zealand, team dynamics and ‘having your mate's back'. Learn about the perils of mountain biking without body armour, youthful European road trips with Dean Barker, Olympic sailing and cleaning the dunny! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The latest episode of the Yacht Racing Podcast sees NYYC American Magic skipper Terry Hutchinson make a return appearance with an update on the US America's Cup syndicate's response to the Covid-19 global pandemic. Speaking to Yacht Racing Life website editor and podcast host Justin Chisholm via Zoom from his home in Annapolis, Maryland on Memorial Day in the United States Hutchinson gives a characteristically frank and open assessment of the American campaign's current status. During the fast paced 50-minute conversation the pair cover off a wide range of topics, including:  the support he received from team's three principals – Doug Devos, Hap Fauth and Roger Penske – when formulating the team's response to the pandemic the impact on the team of the cancellation of the Italian and American America's Cup World Series events what Hutchinson thinks of the four teams' differing first generation AC75 designs – and which one of his rivals' boats he likes the look of most how the American Magic sailors have tried to offset lost on the water time with in-house two boat sparring on the simulator and the ensuing banter between him and principal helmsman Dean Barker why Hutchinson says his own role on the boat as tactician/strategist is not guaranteed some fascinating insight into what racing the revolutionary AC75s might actually be like latest details of the team's second AC75 and why Hutchinson is yet to see it in the flesh the timetable for the team's ongoing move to Auckland and their action plan for once they get there whether the lack of ACWS racing prior to the Challenger Selection Series might well be to the advantage of the three Challengers?All this and much more....

In this episode, which is part 1 of a 2-part series, Monica sits down with technology executive and musician, Dean Barker. Dean has two careers, one where he runs a group of designers for a fortune 100 company and the other as a gigging musician. In part 1, he talks about his experiences as a full time musician as a young adult, his mix of influences growing up, and his musical upbringing. We talk about his two sons and their musical interests and share some stories about them. Monica and Dean dig into some harmonic conversation about “wrong” notes and playing what you hear, along with the importance of deep listening alone and with others. We start in on the conversation about a double life where Dean shares how he makes it work, the importance of vision and see possibilities, the luxury for him of being able to take gigs without worrying about the bread, the projects he has been able to self-fund, and how he has funded others to bring new music into the world. They explore how Dean takes classes online to keep learning, and the importance of staying curious and wanting to experiment with the new tools out there. They conclude this portion with the reality that you can’t do it all and how he uses his time to practice as much as possible with the time he has available. As an unintended bonus, these two episodes are full of great book recommendations. _____________ To support our mission, please join our Patreon page - Patreon.com/BraveMusician. _____________ See the show notes at BraveMusician.com/podcast.

In this episode, which is part 2 of a 2-part series, Monica sits down with technology executive and musician, Dean Barker. Dean has two careers, one where he runs a group of designers for a fortune 100 company and the other as a gigging musician. In part 2 he talks in depth about his visiting lecture advocating for a double life and about exploring different possibilities and paths. He talks about being Brave and how to him it is about being creative. We share our separate journeys with Morning Pages (Julia Cameron) and other ways that we have faced creative challenges. He shares how he created a support group that helped through a tough creative slump, how he started making coffee haikus, “coffeeku” and the importance of daily creation. As an unintended bonus, these two episodes are full of great book recommendations.  _____________ To support our mission, please join our Patreon page - Patreon.com/BraveMusician. _____________ See the show notes at BraveMusician.com/podcast.

My Life In Football Dean Barker

Dave Anderson and Swampy join Tim Fuell in this bumper episode focusing on the precarious and often thankless task of being a football manager. The guys discuss Billericay Town hunting for their third manager of the season after parting ways with Dean Brennan before talking to Dean Barker the new manager at Welwyn Garden City FC who inherited just three players but notched a creditable 1-1 draw in his opening game, just minutes after many of the team had first met each other. Peter Beadle is back on the show, months after his departure from Hereford FC but still in the hunt for a new job. The guys discuss the highlights and lowlights of being a manager and why the buzz is still there. Matt Badcock wraps up the show with news on Ramsbottom's FA Trophy Replay win over Weymouth, how the Metropolitan Police are thriving after switching from the Isthmian into the Southern League this season and news that the FA are to introduce sin-bins across the game at Step 7 and below from next season.

Stephen Barker, Dean of UC Irvine's Claire Trevor School of the Arts and Director of the UCI Museum and Institute for the Art of California joins host Janeane to highlight events coming up in the fall, what freshman/transfer students can do to get enmeshed in campus life and CTSA events, what makes CTSA such an outstanding school, and more. Plus, Dean Barker will discuss his background and some of his experiences since joining UCI. Stephen Barker, Dean of the Claire Trevor School of the Arts and Director of the UCI Museum and Institute for the Art of California, has been Chair of Drama, Chair of Art, Faculty Assistant to the Chancellor, and Director of the UC-wide Education Abroad Program in France. He was previously a professional actor, director, dancer, choreographer, musician, and advertising executive. He now works internationally in critical theory and aesthetics. Stephen Barker has written and edited books and articles on numerous artists and philosophers, and has recently translated several volumes by French philosophers for Stanford University Press. Barker is a founder of the journal Derrida Today and is on the faculty of the London Graduate School. He lives in Irvine and Provence with his wife Michelle, a retired clinical psychologist. For more information, visit: http://drama.arts.uci.edu/faculty/stephen-barker

The Isthmian Show with Dean Barker and Jake Murphy 03/09/2018

Dean Barker je legendarni novozelandski jadralec, ki je z vetrom prepotoval svet in se večkrat zaustavil tudi v Sloveniji

Two double Olympic medallists in one show! Plus a preview of the decisive event of the America's Cup World Series. Nathan Outteridge and Saskia Clark are our special guests this month. Olympic champion Saskia Clark confirms her retirement, admits being scared of life after Team GB and has an important Bart's Bash update.  Aussie Nathan Outteridge on what life is really like in Bermuda for an America's Cup sailor, his favourite Olympic medal and why he had to get away from sailing partner Iain Jensen.  Dean Barker and Franck Cammas look ahead to the decisive event of the America's Cup World Series in Japan. GUESTS:        Saskia Clark (GBR) @1'30"                       Dean Barker (NZL) @9'17"                       Franck Cammas (FRA)                       Nathan Outteridge (AUS) @12'00"

In Extra Time this week, the BMX Olympic medallist Sarah Walker makes her return from injury to kick start her pursuit of Olympic qualification. Manawatu coach Jason O'Halloran talks about why the prospect of Super Rugby bores him and why he's signed a deal to become an assistant coach for Scotland's national rugby team. The New Zealand netball coach Wai Taumaunu looks ahead to the World Cup. The Black Sticks begin their road to Olympic qualification. Dane Coles makes his long-awaited return to the Hurricanes' starting lineup, and former Team New Zealand skipper Dean Barker explains how he can turn Team Japan into America's Cup contenders.

In Extra Time this week, the BMX Olympic medallist Sarah Walker makes her return from injury to kick start her pursuit of Olympic qualification. Manawatu coach Jason O'Halloran talks about why the prospect of Super Rugby bores him and why he's signed a deal to become an assistant coach for Scotland's national rugby team. The New Zealand netball coach Wai Taumaunu looks ahead to the World Cup. The Black Sticks begin their road to Olympic qualification. Dane Coles makes his long-awaited return to the Hurricanes' starting lineup, and former Team New Zealand skipper Dean Barker explains how he can turn Team Japan into America's Cup contenders.

In Extra Time this week Radio New Zealand Sport discusses the Cricket World Cup and why it's taking so long to find the champion. The New Zealand Breakers celebrate their victory in the Australian National Basketball League. After a 20-year association with Team New Zealand, skipper Dean Barker decided to leave the America's Cup syndicate and squash player Joelle King has all but completed her return to the sport after a major injury.

In Extra Time this week Radio New Zealand Sport discusses the Cricket World Cup and why it's taking so long to find the champion. The New Zealand Breakers celebrate their victory in the Australian National Basketball League. After a 20-year association with Team New Zealand, skipper Dean Barker decided to leave the America's Cup syndicate and squash player Joelle King has all but completed her return to the sport after a major injury.

In Extra Time this week - we speak to Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton about the controversial axing of Dean Barker as skipper and helmsman and we hear from a devastated Barker himself about his shock dumping.

In Extra Time this week - we speak to Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton about the controversial axing of Dean Barker as skipper and helmsman and we hear from a devastated Barker himself about his shock dumping.