The Blue Planet Show

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Blue Planet Show. Today's show is extra special. I got to meet with Jimmy Lewis. Derek and Lucas and I visited his workshop in Haiku in Maui,  where We, he showed us his whole workshop, gave us a full tour, showed us his house as well. He even gave us t shirts and signed them. This is the t shirt he gave me.  So that was a super fun trip and I highly recommend watching this one on YouTube.  I'll post it as a podcast as well if you're doing other things. But the visuals are great. He shows us the full tour of his factory, his dust collection system, how to shape a board from basically hot cutting it with a hot wire cutting the blanks installing inserts foil tracks his philosophy on shaping and how he was inspired by sea planes when he developed some of the early foil boards. and showed us a hydrodynamic plate mount that he developed for the air chair and then how to get sharp edges when you're glassing, how to shape a twisted V tail. So he's not holding back, sharing whatever he knows. So cool  of Jimmy to give us all the details.  And at the end of the interview, I'll also make some special announcements about the Molokai race, a couple other things. Stay tuned to the very end. Thanks so much for watching, and without further ado, here is Jimmy Lewis.  Tell me again about the design and how you came up with that kind of, the, this guy, Vitor Marcal, he's a lifeguard captain on the North Shore now, right? And he's been a lifeguard for as long as I've known him. I've known him for a little over 20 years. And he was one of the first guys foiling  when Laird first started foiling and using the boots, to bolt themselves onto the board and those air chair foils. They had like snowboard bindings, right? Yeah. So they just And so Vitor was pretty progressive on it, to know  that he needed to adjust his foot straps sometimes or his bindings. So he had me put these tracks on. And, Vitor was really good. He could do jumps and backflips on a wave with that air chair, and he'd said, Yeah, when I jump up, jump, and I come down for a landing, my board would always stick. And he asked me what kind of  shape could I do so it wouldn't stick so much.  And the first thing I thought of was a seaplane, because they're made to  land on water.  

 Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show where I interview foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. I talk not just about the equipment technique and so on. but also try to find out a little bit more about their background, what inspires them and their plans for the future and so on.You can watch this show right here on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app. Just search for the Blue Planet Show. I've been trying for a long time to get the Spencer brothers to come on the show and I finally met up with them after the Molokai To Oahu race and I got them both on the show today. So really stoked about that. Finn recently won the Maui to Molokai race and the Molokai to Oahu race, even though he had a major infection on his foot. So congrats on that. And they are both amazing athletes, not just in wing foiling, but also downwind foiling, prone foiling, surfing. They do everything. Really great guys to talk to. Hope you enjoy the show. So without further ado, here are Finn and Jeffrey Spencer. Alright, Finn and Jeffrey, welcome to the Blue Planet show. It's great to have you here. I've been trying to get you for quite a while. And then I finally ran into your dad at the finish of the Molokai Toahu race. And then Jeffrey gave me your text your cell phone number. So finally getting you guys on the show. Stoked. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah. So you're on Maui. I'm on Oahu. And on Maui, just, since the Molokai race and not too long ago, I was in Lahaina like right before the Maui to Molokai race and everything was fine and now it's all gone. So can you talk a little bit about the fires on Maui and what, and. If you know anyone that got affected by it totally, yeah, we we had this storm that was passing to the south of the islands and it was like, usually it's not too concerning because it didn't look like it was actually going to hit us. But what happened was it ended up generating extremely crazy strong winds, like through the whole thing, but there was no rain or anything. So it's just. Like the most windy it's ever been, especially over on the West side in Lahaina. And they're just not used to having, that crazy amount of wind. So tons of stuff was getting knocked down. And I think just in the chaos, like the fire started, it was, there was ones on both sides of the island. There was some up country up in Kula and then also in Lahaina. So it was probably pretty difficult to be able to actually like. Control everything, especially in that amount of wind. It spread extremely quickly. And yeah, it's pretty devastating, but yeah, most the entire town of Lahaina pretty much burnt. Quite a few places up country as well, but look, it wasn't as bad up there. Yeah, it's not as densely populated now, at least but yeah, I was just reading in the paper this morning that there was some like live video of the power lines getting knocked over and then just falling into the grass and just like a line of fire starting instantly. Stuff like that. And then yeah, the wind was so strong that day that it just spread super fast and I guess people didn't even have time to. To get away, it's pretty, pretty tragic. It's like probably the big, the worst fire in, in recent history. Yeah. And then, so do you know anybody that got affected by it or lost their home or? Yeah. A bunch of our friends on the West side that we know and grew up with Santa paddling and foiling and surfing and just lost everything like lost their homes and pretty much everything. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so if yeah, and then I guess I talked to Zane yesterday who lives over on that side too and Zane Schweitzer, he, and he said like they don't need more clothes and stuff like that. Everybody's been sending clothes, but they just need like certain things like VHF radios and containers and things like that. They need it quickly. So because shipping stuff there, it takes a while, so anyway. Probably the best way to support Maui's is by making a donation. Absolutely. Yeah. The best way is like supporting the families directly. If I know personally, like the Clayton's and the flex from paddling, they're good family friends and there's tons of others. We're able to find them on there, especially social media has been a really good way for people to communicate through all this and the Maui strong foundation as well as a really good resource that they're able to take the funds and use them wherever's most needed at the current moment. That's another really good one to donate to. All right. Yeah. Best wishes for everyone on Maui. That's just a tough situation to be in for sure. But anyways, let's talk a little bit about you guys. How, where did you, have you always lived on Maui or how did you grow up? And, what, how did you get into water sports and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, since we were, We've lived here since we were babies. We were born in Canada, but basically our entire lives was here. We weren't even a couple of years old when we moved here. So yeah, it's just been my way. But interestingly, it took us a while to get super into water sports. We did a bunch of, the average like school sports growing up team ones, like basketball, volleyball, stuff like that. And then we started stand up paddling around. Probably 10 years ago, actually, at this point, but then just from there, like we always had fun bodyboarding and surfing and Santa paddling and then got into it from there. Yeah, right on. Who's older or what are your ages? I'm older and 19, 22 and 19. All right. So I guess when you started, you were. Like around, I was probably 13. We'd always play in like the shore break with boogie boards and, when we were really young, but we didn't really start like getting into it more. Until, yeah, until I was 13 and you were probably like 10, 11. Yeah. Yeah. And that was that your dad taking you down, down to the beach and putting you on a board or did you just show interest in it or like, how did that work out? We would actually, we'd go over to the west side near Lahaina, we'd go to Laniopoko and the waves there are super fleet friendly, the best place for any, anyone to learn. We just take long boards and stand up paddle boards and spend the days over there in the summer. Nice. Nice. Okay. And then how did you start getting into foiling? What was how did you first start foiling? I think it was a while ago now. I think before it all started, we talked to Alex Aguero about just trying some surf foils. Cause he was making kite foils at the time. And then it was funny, he said he had just started working with Kai Lenny on the same thing. So then we started doing that with them, just went to Sugar Co. and had the first GoFoil prototype that we tried and then just started going to the west side a bit and just getting into it and then Kai put out that video of him downwinding and that just exploded it. Yeah. Then everyone was like, Oh, I want to try this. But you were basically tried some of the very first prototypes that Alex was making him. Totally. Yeah. We just be like us in the beach down here, just going with Kai and on this old sub board with a tunnel box drilled into it and Yeah, just testing stuff. It was fun. Yeah. And then where are you mostly trying to do downwinders or more in the surf or both or what were you guys doing? Most part, it was in the surf. For the first couple of months. And then we started to try a couple of downwinders and realize that it was super fun. So then we started doing that a lot more too. Yeah. The foils quickly evolved to be good enough for downwinding. Yeah. And then in the beginning you were using GoFoils and then I guess at some point you got sponsored by Slingshot or or how did that evolve? We'd run GoFoils as well and it was great. And then we had an opportunity to. To try the slingshot stuff as well and it worked really well for us. So yeah, we, we met with Tony Ligo. She's a awesome designer and Yeah wrote with them for a while, which was amazing. Okay. And then did you have like influence in the design and things like that? Developing products or not so much. They just would send you stuff and you'd play with it. We'd help them test stuff, but we're a lot of new stuff and the wings and then all the coils and boards. And so it was super fun. Learned a lot from that for sure. We're definitely still very early on in like our experience though. So it's not like we were saying like, oh, this is. What you should do to make it good, it's like more just Feeling it out and helping as much as we could. Yeah. And then probably the equipment you were using on Maui was like smaller and you guys are lightweight too, right? It's probably like smaller than what they could sell to the average consumer, right? So yeah, and then you were some of the, I think, were you the first to do a back loop on a wing foil board or yeah. That's awesome. I remember seeing that video and I was wow, that's insane. Yeah, I just remember we were doing them surf foiling off of waves. You could come back out and hit the ramp. And I'm just thinking oh, I think this would probably work with the wing after I just had a wave session. And then right after that, I'm like, in my mind, I could see how it would work. And then after that, I went straight back out that night and tried it for a few hours. And then. The next didn't get it, but I got like close. I like fully saw the potential. And then the next day I yeah, went out and tried again and somehow made it work, which was honestly really strange. Like usually if you're trying a new trick, it takes a lot longer to learn. Like even for me, it I usually take weeks to figure some stuff out. But I think the backflip is just so it's such a natural movement on the wing of the foil with that, that it it worked out pretty well. So what are, after people say, are you doing it? Then a lot of people figure it out how to do it, but, I'm still doing it, being the first to do it is always you don't have someone else's videos you can watch to figure out how to do it. So what are the biggest challenges of doing a back flip with a wing? I think a lot of it's very mental because it's it's difficult to, see yourself actually going upside down with the foil, especially. And I think the most important thing safety wise is just to keep your feet like in the straps with the foil facing away from you. Cause as long as that's good, it's not, you're not going to connect with the foil, which is pretty much the main way to hurt yourself if you're trying it. And after, after time of doing it to the biggest. Things that I've learned to help is if you're able to do one surf foiling or even start with a backflip on a trampoline and then transition to do one surf one, so you get the feel of how you move through the air with the foil on your feet. And then, after all that, if you can transition to doing it with the wing, make sure you have enough speed, really stay strong, it's easy to get disconnected with your legs and your upper body when you're going through it. Yeah, if you're able to work on all those things, it makes it a. Much, much more possible. Nice. Okay. Those are some good pointers. What about the wing handling? It seems if you don't get the wing right on the landing, you end up getting backwinded and falling into the wing. Like, how do you deal with that? Totally, yeah. A lot of it's for a lot of wing tricks, so much of it's in the takeoff which, or how much speed you have and what direction you jump when you get in the air. So for that one, it's really about Making sure you get enough height and angling off the window a little bit, because if you turn up too much, you'll come around and that's when it'll backwind. So if you're a little more angled down away from it, when you get that height and then suck your knees in and pull it around, it'll really focus on just pulling that top hand up. It'll not catch as easily when you're coming out of it. Yeah. You guys have amazing Instagram accounts. I'm just looking through it. I'm going to actually screen share this a little bit and maybe you can tell me how far back I need to go to find that when you first started doing backflips, it's pretty close a little further, I'd say. What is this? You're wearing a plastic bag. That was a ghost costume for Halloween. But yeah, a lot of it was not easy to breathe in if you ended up in the water. I think right there. I think, yeah, with the red board on the left and this one. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's watch this. Oh yeah. I remember what, Watching this and being blown away, and you have a really small wing too, I guess that, that helps too, right? Absolutely, if especially if you're learning, the smaller the wing, the easier it is just to maneuver. I'd fully recommend if you're beginning, if you can get a good bump or ramp of a wave to go off of, and then a small wing, it's by far the easiest way to learn. That one right there is a three meter wing. Yeah. Just having less wingspan makes it easier. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That compact style definitely helps as well. Not like you getting a huge amount of air, but that probably helps to getting high, the higher you get, the more time you have to rotate. But then I guess there's also more risk of injury, right? Probably, yeah. It's tough because sometimes you think so, but giving yourself more time to rotate in the air, actually, it just makes it easier. That's one of the things now I always work on with, especially the backflip, is I just try and get as high as possible. And you don't actually, unless you're going off a massive ramp, you don't end up going that high, just because you have to consider up. But then also as soon as you start pulling the wing back, you, you stop going up, it you just want to give yourselves as much time as possible to come around. Okay. Is there like a, another video you would, that one, your mouth is on right now is a pretty light. This one. Yeah. I'd say this is when I've got it consistent. I'm still using a bit of ramps, still not that much height. It's still pretty early on, but this was, I was feeling more comfortable with the double. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And then you're doing it, on the way into the beach, just cause that's your natural your natural regular foot or why is it that you're doing it on this tack? We're both regular footed. So we pretty much all our tricks going in, which is a bit of a bar for here. Cause. If we were goofy footed, we'd have way better ramps, but yeah, we try and make it work going in. It's good for surfing here since you're with the window a lot of the time, but yeah, for the wind sports, it's not as not as easy to find a good ramp. And then what about you, Finn? I guess you probably picked up the backflip pretty soon after your brother, or how long did it take you to figure it out? A while, actually. I started trying them pretty soon after, but I had never really done a backflip doing anything before. So I was doing them very weird and not going over backwards, like doing them sideways a bit. And then I went to a trampoline park and learned and then felt comfortable doing them and then went surf foiling and learned them going out off of waves. And then the next time I went, I was getting them down a lot more. Yeah. Finn was funny. His first attempts were so sketchy, which is why I say it's so important to keep the foil away from you and learn all the backflip stuff because he would get straight upside down and then just fold in half and land on top of the wing. But as soon as as soon as he figured it out on the surf foil, it was like night and day compared, for his technique compared to what it was before. I think it was later. It's so important to do this. All your backflip flips? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen, I've had friends who are trying it and it just yeah, like the board coming off their feet in the middle of the jump and there's like the foil landing on their wing and getting, trashing many wings and all that kind of stuff. And plus, yeah, it looked dangerous. What is this move? That looks nuts. But a backflip without the, without using the wing basically. Yeah, just going out and then you drift the wing and then do a flip off the wave. Wow. Yeah. So you guys are definitely on the forefront of all these tricks, but let's talk a little bit about the races. There was a lot of races over the last month. And and you guys both of you guys did really well in in these races. So let's talk first, I guess about the Maui to Molokai race. I, I was there and experienced it and just saw, I saw you, Finn like I was wing foiling too, and I saw you just disappearing on the horizon, just going it seemed like you were just going in a straight line as fast as you could locked into like a real steady, fast downwind angle. Yeah, the wind angle was pretty good. We were able to pretty much shoot straight from the start to, the Kanakakai buoy or the Kamalabouyam, the Kamalabouyam, yeah, and it was just weaving a bit downwind from there. But yeah, that first leg was pretty straight and just. Going super fast the whole time. So then, yeah, and I talked to Bobo Gallagher. He said that he didn't really see you until clo until you guys got close to Molokai. So did you see Bobo at all or after maybe 10, 15 minutes into the start? I think I did a turn and he kept going, and then I just lost sight of him for the, until around the buoy. But that whole race, I couldn't, or that whole section of the race, I couldn't really see anybody, so I had no idea where I was. And then . When I got to the booty I saw him a fair bit ahead of me and I was like, oh, shoot I gotta speed up. So then I just worked super hard and was going as fast as I can to catch up. And then we're, that gap was staying pretty similar to him ahead of me. And then I think once the wind got a bit lighter, I had a bit bigger wing and was able to pull up to him and then pull ahead to the, towards the finish. . So what size wing were you on? I was on a six meter. Yeah. And then Bobo was on like a 5'5 or something. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and you were both on the same foil. Like he showed me the duotone foil. He was using like a kite surfing, kite foil. Yeah, we were both on the Daytona race foil they have. Yeah. Daytona race. Yeah. That thing was, I think probably the foil is the most important thing for going fast. And, but of course also the wing is important for, because that's what powers you along basically. All pretty fast foil and then just a big, powerful wind. You can go as downward as possible. Yeah, and then when and you finished in 114 or something like that. Is that right? Yeah Which is amazingly fast for whatever it was 28 miles or something like that, right? Do you know what your average speed was on that run? I don't I think until the wind got lighter is probably around 28 to 30 miles an hour and then once you got lighter, it really slowed down a lot So at the end when I came towards the end, like everyone that was in my kind of around me just came to completely came off the focus, it wouldn't just completely died for a while. And then after a bit, then there was another gust and I was able to get back up on foil and fly over the line. But how was it for you guys? Did you have the wind completely die and you have to like just pump or how was it at the end? It got pretty light. I think even on the six, I was pretty underpowered and probably for Bobo on the five, five too. But we were both able to pump our way into the finish. Yeah. Yeah. So then, and you ended up finishing all I guess it was pretty close to like he was a minute or two behind you only or something like that. Yeah. So yeah. And from what I could tell is it seemed like you had more of a straight line and Bobo was trying to go more downwind on the way to Molokai. Yeah. So what's I know, like when, cause when the more downwind angle you have, the less power you have in your wing, basically. So how did you figure out your ideal angle to the wind and to the waves? And did you just go on a straight line or did you try to use the energy of the ocean or like how do you maximize your speed? It was mostly just using the winds and just trying to go as downwind as I could. And then just, Yeah. To keep enough power in the wing that I was able to go pretty fast. And then when it got lighter, I had to bear, go a bit slightly more upwind. And then, yeah, just trying to have as much power as possible. So yeah, you have to do that to keep some pressure in your wing. But do you try to weave a little bit to use the bumps or do you just go straight? Do you make any adjustments? When I, when the wind gets lighter. Then you can use the bumps a bit more, but when it's really windy, you're going a lot faster than them. So you're just cutting straight through. Okay. Or like it, you have to stay super focused when you're doing that. Cause you have to go up and down and try not to over foil or hit your board on a bump. And then. Yeah, especially when you're overtaking a bump, then it's easy to overfoil behind it, right? As you're coming down the face. What size mask were you using? I was on a 105. Okay, so pretty long mask, too. And then that, that foil, the Daytona, what's the how many square inches, do you know, like the the surface area? It's around a five. 60 square centimeters. Yeah. And it's not like a super high aspect shape, right? It's almost more like a little bit. Yeah. Like you can control and really just really locked in at high speeds. Yeah. So what do you think makes that foil so fast? I don't know. What is it that, is it a thinner profile or just like the overall, I think it's just. The mast is really slim and fast and then all the connect. It's a full one piece lower, so it's super. Sleep like the fuselage really thin and the wing connections and then the wings are really good shape and good profiles. So Just a lot of that makes it just super fast and low drag all right, and then jeffrey you did the maui to mulukai on a standard foil board, right? So yeah, so talk a little bit about how that went and and the whole experience Yeah, that was good. I same type of thing with Finn. After the start you get going for a bit and then you, it's, the bumps are, even though, it was a good day, there's just so much swell and water in the channel that you don't really see. Anyone else, like even if they have boats and everything, it's actually hard to tell where you are in relation to to everyone. So I was just coming and I had no idea where I was basically, but the run was really good. I think at the start, I had a pretty good line, but then definitely, Were you able to get up on full right away, right from the start or? Yeah, I was able to get going right away, which definitely is important in the races. You can lose quite a bit of time If you're off oil, which I figured out at the end, but about halfway, I think I went too close to the island and I would, the bumps just weren't as fast as they would have been further out. And I was worried about the wind angle being tough to fight against at the end, but it turned out to just get light. It wasn't actually hard to come in. So I think if I was, yeah, to do it again, I would have. Taking a much wider line especially through the finish where near the end, I accidentally, or I actually went too far over the reef and my wingtip came out on just a little accident as I was pumping in. And it was right before the finish where the wind was the lightest and the bumps were super, super small and I did my best to get back up on foil and got up for a second. But it was, if I had stayed further out, I would have had the energy to keep it going to stay in. But. On the inside, it was not the move. I lost tons of time there. Did you, and I was shallow. So you hit the reef or did you go around the reef? It wasn't too bad. I wasn't like all the way inside. I think the tide was pretty high when we were coming in. So I. I luckily didn't hit it. I hit it I was paddling on my stomach coming in, but it was just, once you get over that shelf, the, even the little bumps that you would have just outside of it, just aren't even there. so I just flattened out the bumps basically. Yeah. Yeah. And then you ended up finishing like in 14th place or something like that. Huh? You said 14, but and then what kind of what kind of foil were you on and board and foil? I'm just curious. Yeah, I was on a, just some prototype, a foil board we're working on. And a same thing with the front wing. It's about an 800 square centimeter size, but all the rest of the stuff is production stuff. I was using the mast and fuselage and all that. Like how long of a mass we're using on a standard flow board. I've been actually liking the shorter stuff. I've been using a 75 centimeter mast. Maybe when the conditions get really crazy, it can be nice to ride. A bit longer, so you have a bit more forgiveness just in that trimming and that height. But otherwise, yeah, the 75 is really nice. It feels like you have really good control and that's honestly one of my favorite parts about the whole duotone setup is how stiff it is. So you really feel like you have really good control the entire time when you're riding. Yeah. And then for stand up foiling, it seems like with the shorter mass, it's a little bit easier to pump up on foil too, right? And then you also have less drag from the mass, right? The shorter it is, the less drag is in the water. Cause when you're getting going, that whole mass is just sitting down in the water. So any length you're adding on is just. Pure drag when you're getting going. So that's probably a big reason. But it just helps with being a little bit more comfortable and having more control and more margin of error when you're, especially on wing foiling, I like to, I have a one or three mass and it just gives you that a little bit of extra time to react to, to like getting too high or whatever yeah, but cause when you're on a shorter mass, you really have to follow the contours of the water. Like you always have to go up and down. over every little bump versus the longer mass. Sometimes you can fly over the smaller chop without making too many adjustments, yeah, exactly. Interesting though. I like how, I think it is a little bit different in wing foiling than in standup foiling, like the, or downwind foiling, what size mast you're using. Totally. With the wing, it's nice to have that length. So you can just like, because you don't want to have to worry about going up and down. You just want to cut straight through everything. And then for downwind. Like that control you get from the shorter mass is definitely worth it. So even if you have to change your angle a bit, it's, I think it's nice. Yeah. So when you, when Jeffrey, when you wingfo, do you use the same size mass or do you use a different, or do you wingfo race at all? Or yeah, absolutely. I would use the same setup and was on, if I was doing. Yeah, interesting. Right on. And then the next day was the Molokai Holokai, and I guess only you stayed stuck around on Molokai Jeffrey. And then, yeah, so how did that next day go, the race, just on the Molokai coast? Yeah, it was great. Our our friends had a place for me to stay. So it was really easy for me over there. And it was great. There was tons of the people that live over there that were into doing the canoe race and everything. And the conditions I think were actually, yeah, it was a little lighter. And I think the the whole race was super interesting. Like we paddled way out to the Camelot buoy and which is just offshore near the the start of the run down the coast. And then we, yeah, basically started pumped up the bumps were really slow, which was, it was like kind of work to keep it going, but it was very like, they're just lined up and even it was hard to really gain a bunch of grounds. And when I started the race, the two other people who were really fast and that was Oscar Johansson and Aiden Nichols. And we all took super different lines like. Me from the day before I was thinking, okay, no matter what, I don't want to be too far in. So I went really wide into the middle of the channel and Oscar went in the middle and then Aiden went really close. And I think just the style of the bumps kept us all like really close. We were like super spread out the whole race and then we were coming into the finish and it was crazy after the whole, I forget how long it was exactly. But after that whole time, after the 10 miles or whatever it was, we were all basically in a line next to each other, like almost on the same bump. Basically. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So it became like a super hard pumping race and both goes, both those guys are super, strong and super good at pumping, especially like. Oscars of machine when it comes to that stuff. So it's very much for me. I knew I really have to focus on the technical part of it and really make sure I'm like taking the best line to each bump, making sure I save as much energy as possible. But I was still pumping as hard as I could some of the times. And just before the end, luckily, I think Oscar said he made a couple. Like bump mistakes. And then I was able to just pull ahead of them by 10 seconds before the finish. And then Oscar and Aiden were, I think it was 0. 4 seconds apart across the finish, which is extremely close for a race, right? Over 10 miles. Yeah. Yeah. It's unheard of. I think it was just because the conditions out there and the type of bumps were. They were so lined up. It was so hard to actually make distance on anyone, even though like we all took completely different lines. So it really doesn't make sense that we were right next to each other at the finish. Yeah. Yeah. That's just how it went, which it was pretty fun. It was like, I, it was the hardest I worked. I think in most of the races, just because they were right next to me, I just had something to really push for and really like really focus on to that was the most I focused in, or the most I had to focus in any of the race scenarios. From the past couple of weeks. Yeah. And then that, that just, that length of that race, it's almost, yeah, it's more like you can really go all out the whole way. It's not like you have to conserve for the last part, like on the mobile or whatever. It's really tough on the longer ones to know how much energy you should use at the start. Especially for M2O, that's the scariest part, is that basically, flat water pop up at the start and just thinking okay, if I use this much energy here, how much am I going to have for the end? And so for the Molokai Holokai race, it was like much more of a sprint the whole way. So yeah, it was a full grind. But yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. So yeah, so the Molokai or Maui to Molokai race and the Molokai Holokai, that was like two weeks before the M2O race. And then I think the following weekend there was the gorge challenge in Hood River and also the paddling mua on Maui, right? Finn, which one did you do again? I went to the gorge and then Jeffrey stayed here for Paddleamua. Okay, so how did the gorge, how was the gorge challenge? It was super fun. It was decently windy, a lot lighter than it usually is in the gorge, and then they ran both the wing downwind race and the sub downwind race on the same day, but they were, luckily this year they spaced it out by three or four hours, so we had time to do that one and then go back up to the second. So which ones did you compete in? Which races? I did the wing foiling downwind and course race, and then the sub downwind race. Sub foiling, right? Okay. So how, and then, yeah. So tell us a little bit about how those races went. So the first day they did all the downwinders, so at, in around 10 in the morning, they started the wing one and it was pretty light. We were all, everybody was just on their biggest wings, pretty much. I had a 6'5 and the, everyone started super close. And then these two guys, Johnny Heineken and Joey Pasquale, who are really good kite racers or kite foil racers, and now wing foil racers, they pulled a bit ahead. And then. I was trying, I was keeping with them a lot and then just slowly falling back and then just stayed like that the whole way down and just came in third in that one, maybe 15, 20 seconds behind Johnny and first and then 10 seconds. Wow. So that was a super close race too. Then how, what distance is that? Like how long is it? I think that one's not eight or nine miles. And what was the time on that one? 24. And you're going against the river current too, right? So that, that makes it a little bit slower then. Yeah. If you, yeah. Yeah. When it was super light. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess obviously if the wind was stronger, the how it is a lot of times, then you guys would have had faster times, right? And then in terms of the foils, we're using the same one that used in the M2M or? For the wing race, I was using that same Daytona foil. Yeah, so I guess depending on the wind conditions, you just use a bigger hand wing, but not necessarily a bigger foil. Yeah, usually. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's also a 6'5 unit D Lab for that one. Do you know what what kind of wing Johnny Heineken was on foil? I think both him and Joey were on the Mike's Lab foils. Do you know what size by any chance? No. I think the, either the 540 or the 600. Yeah, and those are super fast foils as well. But interesting. Okay. And then how did the Paddle in Mura go? You stayed on Maui, Jeffrey, right? And then how was that? Paddle in Mura was awesome. That event is a fundraiser to support kids with special was. I think 300 people registered to do the race and they had to close registration because it was so full, which was just, yeah, it was so incredible to see the race launches from legal gulch. So having everyone down in there, like the whole. Canoe paddling community. And then all the oil community as well was like, just so incredible to see, and yeah, the race itself was really fun. The conditions were good. We had all had a nice, good start out in the wind line and went down to Kanawha and it was, yeah, pretty good race. I was feeling good. The other guys, there's some other really fast guys. I think James. Casey Andrew, I was where they got a bit ahead of me through the middle of the race. And then I was coming in next to Kai. And then I did the same thing that I did in a M2M where my wingtip came out and I fell and I had to grind back up to get up. And then Oscar came in and passed me just before the finish. And then I was able to like, run past him on the beach to the end. Cause it was like this crazy beach run finish, but it was a super fun race. And also I will mention Edo ended up like just coming out just to be part of it. He wasn't even able to get in just because it was so full, but he was faster than anyone, which was pretty cool to see. Oh, so Edo actually won the race, but he wasn't officially registered kind of thing. Interesting. That was pretty cool. And then, those guys are the ones who've finished in the front on the M2O race as well. Yeah. So that's interesting. But yeah, so let's talk about that. The big one, the paddle board world championships, the Molokai Toahu race that one you guys both did. And so how did that go for you guys? That was good. I think it went very well for me. Yeah, it was super fun. Except for one thing. Yeah, we had good wind and then pretty good bumps the whole way, but it was a bummer for me. A couple days before I started getting this weird pain in my heel and was having a hard time walking. And then the day or two before the race, it just, this weird spot started coming in. And then up until the morning of the race, it just kept growing until a big blister on my heel. And I still just couldn't really put any weight on it. And then did the race. Luckily I had footstraps on my board, so I was able to. Kind of not put much pressure on it and use my toes on my foot a bit more. And then when I got to the finish, I just had to go to the doctor and they like drained it all out and then had to cut all the skin away. And yeah, I saw you briefly at the finish and you were limping and I was like, what's going on? And you showed me, and it's it was almost like a tennis ball size blister on your heel. It was huge, ugly looking too. It's yeah, the night before we were looking at it, wondering should we try and drain it and bandage up now or we ended up just yeah, I talked to Scott Trudeau, and who's Kai's, Scott Sanchez, sorry, who's Kai Lenny's trainer and he just said that I should probably wait to drain it because I don't want getting infected, which was good advice because I think if we had tried to pop it, it might not have been able to race. And then, but luckily made it and then just had to go to the doctor right after. Yeah. And then they basically just cut off all the skin and just cleaned up the infection kind of thing, or did they, do they know what kind of infection or what would happen? No, not really. I think it just, I got like a weird bruise inside and then it was bleeding a little maybe, and then got infected. So are you still healing up from that? Or is that all done now? Yeah, still healing, I think. Still on crutches right now trying not to put much weight on it. And then I think it's maybe another couple weeks before I can do stuff again. And you're taking like some, you probably had to go through some heavy antibiotics and stuff? I had to go through a week after. Yeah. And yeah, wow. But yeah, it was the first time they had the wing flow division at the at the Molokai Molokai Tuawa race. So I always get those mixed up, but anyway so it's cool that you were able to win that one. And it was a really good battle with Bobo and then Aiden Nicholas. Yeah. Most of the whole way, I think. Did you see them? Did you see them going across? Or I know that you guys were all pretty close, but yeah how was that? Yeah, we all started really close and we're pretty much on the same line, all in a pretty tight pack going towards Molokai. And then once the wind got a bit lighter, I think I had a bit more power in my wing and I was able to just drop a bit below them further downwind and pull ahead. And then. Once we got a lot closer to Oahu and further up the coast and we had to start weaving downwind, then I think I really pulled ahead a lot just because I had more power and was able to ride the bumps a bit more when it got really light. And then I think. But before that we were all super close. Yeah, and that's something to mention too that I mean I guess at the start the wind was actually pretty decent but then in the middle of the channel it got really light in some spots and then and it didn't really get seemed like it maybe got a little bit windier again towards the end towards Oahu, but And then once you got around the corner, then it was light again, right? Did you get any lulls coming in towards the finish or? I think I came about as close to coming down as I could have, and then just got another puff of wind, as I was about to come down and kept going, but it was, yeah, it was close coming around the point where there's this big dead zone of wind before you got the wind coming from Hawaii. And then I guess Bobo is a natural goofy footer, which is helps in the Molokai race because you're going in that stance most of the way. So for you, do you feel like you can go faster in your regular stance than in your in when you switch feet in the goofy foot stance or how do you, it's pretty similar right now. And then I will, I need to spend more time going goofy though, cause I think it would be faster, but. With my foot to that race I, it was like, he was my back foot. So I didn't have to put as much weight on it. I had to use that as my front foot. It would have felt a lot worse, but yeah, both, both Bobo and Aiden were goofy footed. So on the. The kind of first reach over to a Wahoo, I think it was a lot more comfortable for them. And then Aiden is from New Zealand, right? And he's on a, he was on the Armstrong foil, right? Yeah. What kind of foil he was on or what size and I think he just had a prototype one. He said it was around 470. Oh, so even smaller than yours, huh? A fair bit smaller than ours, which I think it helped him when it was windier. And then when the wind got lighter, he was just having a hard time going as downwind. So that's another thing to to mention too, like basically on a really small foil. Yeah. Like sometimes you can't get the same downwind angle because yeah, it starts dropping off foil. So you need a little bit more pressure in your wing. Yeah. So it's always like a gamble a little bit. If you are too small. It helps going faster, but then you're also taking a risk at when the wind gets lighter. So yeah, for sure. Cause that's what happened was at the start he was super fast and actually pulling ahead a bit when it was windier. And then once he got lighter, I caught up a lot to him and then was just able to go more downwind and the same speed towards the finish, just put a big gap on him because it was really light. And I was able to go more downwind. And then what handling were you on? It was the duotone. I was on the duotone unit D lab six meter, which I think I would've preferred to have a six five, but it's so hard to tell what the wind is doing. Apart from, do you mind sharing what your weight, your body weight? I think like one 40 to one 45. Okay. So yeah, so six meters, pretty big for you, for your body weight. And what about your board size? What's, what were the dimensions of the board you were using? Four, four, 35 liter sky free board or sky. It's a pretty small board, like basically a sink sinker, right? So it's nice for the weighing down one to just use something that. Cause you're using such a big wing. You don't really need a ton of board to get you going. And then you want something that once you're up is just really out of the way, so you're not catching it on other bumps. And there's a lot of moments there. I feel like they make it a lot easier to control the foil at high speeds. And then, yeah, you're not really too worried about it catching. And you didn't fall at all during the whole way across or did you have any, right at the start, maybe a minute or two in, I was. I think I just hit a weird warble and then the nose started going down and I tried to put weight on my back foot and put it right on my heel where it really hurt and then just. Stuff that knows I've been flying and then luckily God pretty fast, like 10, 15 seconds and was going again. Oh, good. Yeah. That's I always like to use a little bit longer and board higher volume board for racing, because yeah if you do fall or come off and it's light, then it just makes it so much easier to get back on foil for like course racing and then if the wind's lighter, that's definitely the way to go. Cause then it's the worst when you're just stuck down in the water and everyone's passing you and. Yeah, I can't get going again now. All right. Jeffrey, talk about your experience at the Mali to Molokaris. I heard from A lot of stand up foilers that the start was tough. And then all the wing full escort boats went across or, made wakes and chop and world up the water and stuff like that. So yeah, talk a little bit about how the start was and then, yeah, how the whole channel crossing went for you. Totally. Yeah. The start of the race is always difficult since you start just below the island. Time to. Generate as big as they'll be in the middle of the channel yet. And the wind at your back definitely helps. It's, it makes it like much easier than a completely flat water pop up. But the hardest part is you're able to grind up and get going. And that's something I practice a lot, especially like in flat water stuff, but just staying up for that time until you actually get into the bumps that you're able to relax and regain some energy is definitely the difficult part. So my focus on the start was just getting up, getting going and then keeping my heart rate as low as possible and trying to ride as efficiently as possible to not. Burn so much energy. So about how long did it take the pumping in the beginning where you just couldn't even rest at all, like until you reach some bumps where you could just take a little breather, you can take like tiny rest. Cause there was like a little bit of motion, especially like with all the boats going around. Some of it was bad. Some of it, you had to pump through, but then some of it, you could use to, to ride a little bit, I ended up. On the south side of the line at the start. So the boats actually cut across me really quickly, which was bad because it was right at the start and I hadn't gotten on a glide yet. But then I got to the other side of this boat wake and got a tiny bit of rest, which actually might've helped me a little bit. It didn't last very long. It was probably a few minutes before any good rest and then several more until you were like. You could actually ride a bump for a bit. Yeah. Yeah. But my friend Eli was saying he had a couple times where boats went like right in front of him and I think that's something that they need to educate the escort captains on that when we just can't go through a boat wake when it's all turned up. It's not, we just, the foil doesn't work in that, yeah, it makes it super difficult to divide when those currents are moving in the water off the prop. Yeah, it's definitely tough. I'm sure next year we'll have it all figured out, because... It's tough starting the wing and the sub at the exact same time as well. Yeah, there's... Yeah. I guess there's talk of doing the foiling on a different day than the paddling. What do you think of that? Do you think that would be a good way to do it? Yeah, I think that could be awesome. And I'm sure even if they do that, there'll be separate starts for the wing and foil, or maybe the boats will start further out for the wing since they have to like... If they let, if the wingboats let the going to catch up with how fast the wings are going, especially like this year was pretty light winds and which is easier for the boats to drive in and makes the rider slower. But if it's strong, it's going to be even more difficult. So I think I think a separate day in general could be awesome. It would. I think give them more customizability for the race course and just start further on the wind. And then there's maybe talk of finishing down at like Waikiki area. So you have bumps all the way to the finish. And then it's still a cool, like finishing the run that all the guys do over there. And I think it could be nice for like their Just managing everyone in the water. It won't be so many people on one day which is always good for safety as well. Yeah. And then, we were talking about do we really, does every foiler really need an escort boat? Cause it's not like you have to switch out hydration packs or whatever. It's, usually. You don't have that much interaction with your boat. It's for safety, but everyone also had the satellite tracker and whatever. So if they had enough safety boats, maybe not every foiler needs to have their own escort boat. I feel like that's overkill. What do you think about that? I don't think any of the foilers or especially the ones that were going fast had any interaction at all with their boats unless something went wrong, like you said. And I heard that a couple of spoilers, the boats didn't even find them, like they basically went across the whole channel without their escort boat. Oh man. Yeah, I think there were a couple of guys that they didn't find them until they were coming in at the finish. That's crazy. It's tough with so many people out there. Yeah. Yeah. And then you said you... Yeah, pretty good positioning at the end, like you were like around fifth place or something like that coming towards the China walls, Portlock, and then what happened like that. That last part is always so challenging. So how did that go for you? Yeah, I was coming in and I was like, I'd saved enough energy coming into the end that I'm like, okay, I want to save a good amount for the finish here because you always know how tough it is, especially when the swell is small, you're just going to have to pump quite a bit. And I tried coming in. I ended up just on the back of a swell along the wall where the wave breaks. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to make it over this thing. I should just try and pull off, catch another wave. And then when I tried to pull off on the one behind me, it just wasn't breaking. So I ended up going over to the other boil next to it and did catch a wave. And then, but it was too big and I fell on it. And just, yeah, just messed around, wasted tons of time doing it. Was it, sorry, this was at China Walls or further down? China Walls, okay. Yeah, right after I finished, me and my mom and dad went back out on our boat and then was just watching him come in. And, oh, it was such a bummer because he was doing so well and like up with, like up ahead of Kai and Mateo, I think. Mateo was like next to me coming in. Yeah, I think he was running like fourth or fifth. Was just in between two waves coming around, like right at China wall and then came down and then there, there just weren't many ways to catch. So it was, yeah, it was a moment. Yeah. There wasn't that much energy. There wasn't many waves coming through that day. And then and then where did you just paddle straight towards the finish from there? Or what was your strategy after that? Were you trying to catch another bump or were you prone paddling the whole way? Or what, how did it go after that? I decided to wait and catch a bump just because I, there was enough swell that I figured something would come and I did get, I got one first one and then just couldn't hold on to it when I first caught it. And that would have been like good. I wouldn't have lost that much time if I got on that one, but then I had to wait for another one, got on that. And I think it might have actually been faster if I just paddled in, but. I guess I saved a little bit of energy and then I ended up catching another wave at the next reef inside and pumping as far as I could on that. And then, yeah, just paddling all the way in. Yeah. And then just prone paddling or did you paddle on standing up or both? I prone paddled most of the way. I know a bunch of people were actually like doing the knee paddle thing which might've been faster, but I don't know if it was. For me personally, I felt like I could grind pretty well laying down. And then once I got close to the finish where it wasn't as windy, I stood up and paddled in. Yeah, because standing up or kneeling also has more you have more surface area and it's a really strong offshore wind there. So yeah, it's but yeah, it's funny how that the last part is a little bit anticlimactic where it turns into a paddle race, right? But yeah, it's definitely challenging. A lot. Yeah, a lot can change in that last, not even a mile, really, I think even for first place, I think Oscar was actually the first one to the point. And then James was a little behind and even came down, but luckily got back up on a wave just at China wall and then was able to pump like the connection was really good. And he was he's really good at pumping as well. So he's able to like pump further in. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I think he caught a wave further in. He like, he pumped out to like pillars. Yeah, and then caught a wave there and then was able to connect it all the way over the reef and into the channel. So that's how you want it. So yeah. Cool. Yeah. So that so that was a bunch of exciting races and in a couple of weeks. Yeah. And what's next? Are did you guys know we're doing a wing full race here on Oahu on August 26th? That's like the, we're calling it the Hawaii wing full state championship. So I don't know if you guys can come to that, but that would be. Another somewhere else plan, but if not, yeah, we're certainly considering it because that could be super fun. You should come over for that Yeah, that'd be cool to have you guys But any do you have any other races planned or doing other competition stuff currently? I think you were considering going. Yeah, there's a kind of wing wave event in Morocco that I think I'm gonna go do and then Yeah, after that, not much. Yeah, otherwise we're considering other downwind races if they happen, but yeah, we'll see what comes. Yeah, right on. When is that race in, or the wave event in Morocco, when is that? I think it's end of September. Okay. So if you could design your own competition what would you include? Would it be like racing and freestyle or wave riding or yeah. What would, or does it, would it combine different? Like standup foiling and wing foiling, or what would you like what would be like your ideal race? If you could pick and choose. Everything would be pretty fun. Definitely a downwind subfoil section and then maybe downwind wing and then maybe some surf foiling and wing freestyle wing and waves. Just everything would be super cool. So like almost like four different division four different competitions and then have a combined score for every, everything. That would be cool. Yeah. Thanks. I'd be crazy. Yeah, that'd be super fun. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We're thinking about maybe trying to put something like that together for Oahu. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about, about your equipment. So after you, after your sponsorship with Slingshot Energy you're both writing for Duotone Fanatic now, or yeah. So how did that come about and how's that going? We were just talking to those guys and it. It ended up working out really well because their design team is based on MAUI, which makes it really easy for us to work with them for testing and designing and everything like that. It's really nice to be able to like, meet with people and actually go and ride together sky Solbeck, who's done a lot of the wing boards, and then Ken Winter, who does all the wings, pretty much. They live super close to us, so it makes it really easy. And yeah, it's been awesome working with them on everything. Yeah. And I interviewed Ken and Alan Cadiz and I guess they, they go together on like upwind and downwind to test the wings and see which wing is faster going upwind, which wing is faster going downwind and things like that. Do you guys go out with them too, or do you, are you part of that kind of the testing crew for the wings? Absolutely. We do a bit of that with them. And then I think a lot of reason why we came in was to test the wings for kind of freestyle and jumping too. Because I guess they don't do that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, they don't like I know I don't get this doesn't jump at all that's and I think that's pretty smart because yeah for me too like I like to jump but it seems like I always get hurt when I jump that's how I end up getting hurt so I try to avoid it too lately but Yeah. So what have you guys had any serious injuries? I would, I guess that the infection doesn't really count as a foiling injury, but like what kind of injuries have you had from foiling or water sports? I've had a couple pretty bad, like knee injuries. One a couple of years ago, we were towing and then. I like fell with one of my feet in the straps and got a little rolled and just twisted my knee super weird. I think I'm, I think I strained my MCL. So that was, I was out of the water for two or three months. And then another time, I think it was the first time I was trying front flips winging. I just landed one super weird and tweaked my knee again. And then was out the water for another couple months after that. So actually the front flip the forward loop. If we can't, let's is there like a good video that you can maybe talk about that a little bit? Jeffrey will have a lot more video. I think you posted the one where you hurt yourself. Oh, yeah, I think yeah, it shouldn't be too far down. Maybe Pass this a little further Did you post it? Yeah. Okay. I think yeah the one in the center at the bottom. No, yeah this one Oh, yeah, that's the one I heard myself on. Okay first time trying. Oh, that was your first attempt Yeah. Oh, yeah. It looks like a kind of a rough landing. So what happened, your knees got discontinued, got tweaked forward or something like that? My front knee, I think I just jammed it super hard into the board and then just tweaked it weird. Okay. So that's what, that's, yeah, I guess for somebody trying it, they don't want to visualize it where you hurt yourself, right? So let's I. Okay. So do you have a one that you can, is this a forward loop? I think you should go to Jeffrey's page. He's got a lot. Yeah, tell us which one was a good video that you, where you can talk about the doing. Probably. Yeah. A little up. Oh, wait. Yeah. Back a little. The one at the bottom of the center. That one's actually, yeah, that one's good. This one? Yep. I think the one before might be the first one I posted. Okay. And it was, I don't think like when I was doing this one, I don't think anyone was doing it this style. Like a lot of guys we're doing very like forward loop style ones which were good, but that's when you get like those super hard landings, which can be really tough on the knees and on it. Like when I was first trying this, I didn't actually like. The rotation is much harder for landing than the backflip, because when you come around the backflip, the board's moving forward, so it's very easy to plane out and get right back on foil. But with the forward, you really have to like, slow yourself down in the air so you have a soft landing. So I was pretty happy when this kind of all worked and it all made sense. I actually to learn this one, I wasn't completely blind. Wyatt Miller, who's this really good wind surfer was doing basically forwards on a wing. And I like watched his videos and saw his body movement and saw what like I could adjust a little bit. And yeah, then it all worked out, which was nice. Did you guys ever windsurf? Or before, before starting wing foiling? I can, but I Not a single Not like a single jump windsurfing Is that like how you tuck in on this one it looks A lot like windsurfing like a forward forward loop and wing foiling Like that tucked in Yeah, totally. I'd say the biggest difference is I'm looking like under my right shoulder instead of back up and over it. But they're very similar for sure. Yeah. So yeah. So give us some pointers on or is there another video we can play here? Yeah, near the top there should be some good ones. Okay. Let's look further up. At the very top, I've been posting lots of downward stuff. That one on the right, right there. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. So there's, oh yeah, that's a high one. Oh, over rotated. Yeah. So talk, give us some pointers on how to do this move. Totally. Yeah. So the biggest thing I look for is a decent gust. And that's like for the day you want to make sure when you're in the air, you're not going to hit a hole in the wind and lose power. Cause that's The sketchiest thing and the sketchiest thing is like committing to that forward rotation, right? So as long as you get up and have the power I find it's very consistent to get around. And yeah, once you get over, it's not it doesn't feel dangerous anymore. Like you can land on your stomach or back even, but the foil under you or to the side of you and it's fine. So yeah, I go, I focus on finding a decent gust. Try and get a good amount of height. It's the same as the backflip, where if you give yourself a little more time to come around, you're generally going to have it's generally going to be easier to actually make it. And then the biggest thing is I, so I jumped, get in the air, like a, just a big straighter. But then as I'm coming up, I tuck my legs up under me and keep the board pretty like flat. And then I wouldn't say flat, but like foil facing down. And then once you're at the apex, it's really all about pointing the nose of the wing, just straight down and holding your whole body, like compact and together and strong and then obviously coming out of it, once you feel like you're halfway through the rotation, then you start to extend your legs, trying to reach out and feel for the water on your landing because with front flips you're blind when you're coming in. Like you don't have the, when you're doing a back flip, you can. Look up and you actually get to see how far you are from the water when you're coming into touch. But on front flips, it's like mostly all about feel. So the more you can reach your legs out and feel that water, the like easier time you're going to have. Absorbing the impact of the landing. So I guess, yeah, like for tricks in general it's always good to use like the smallest wing possible handling possible, right? It seems having a smaller wing but at the, it's obviously you don't want to be overpowered and stuff, but you're saying like, yeah, use it basically use a small wing, wait for a good gust. And then. But yeah, I guess this is saying it's you don't want to be like probably overpowered with a wing that's going to be too big or whatever. And yeah, yeah, the bigger wings just make it more like you more technical, I'd say, like your technique has to be a little more on point because otherwise it'll pull you or throw you in a weird direction that you weren't expecting. And with the smaller wings, you just get a bit more of that control which definitely makes it easier to learn. Okay. Cool. Yeah, and then I guess, and also you don't really have that issue where you get back winded, like in the back loop, like if you get the wing in the wrong position, it's not like you're going to get back winded or whatever, but what are some of the potential mistakes or things to avoid when you're doing it? Yeah. It's a funny thing. Cause a lot of. A lot of people that do front flips are they do end up shutting the power off and going much more like over the front and then you can have points where it can potentially backwing but I like to try and keep the power in it just so I don't have that problem. But yeah, the definite, what are the things that I'd say people struggle with the most? I think a big thing is just keeping your legs really connected to your upper body because a lot of times, especially when I was learning them, I would go with the wing and then just leave my legs and the board a bit behind and then just get stretched out during the rotation. Yeah, it's really easy to leave the board and foil behind because there's quite a bit of even though the stuff is super high performance and super lightweight, there still is like volume and weight with everything that's on your feet there. So being like focusing on, you get that jump and you're focusing on the height, really just sucking your feet into your or just your knees up and your knees to your chest basically. And it's not even that much. It's just enough so that you have a good connection. Finn was saying and accusing it all tucked in a little bit, keeping your legs close to your body. The other thing I do is same with backflips. I make sure to not turn too much up into the wind when I'm doing it. And I think that very, like that allows me to keep the power in the wing a lot easier. And it really makes it so that when you're up in the air and you go to point the wing down, that it really like. throws you around and gives you that rotation because it's easy to come up and Force yourself over, but it doesn't throw you around the same way that it does when you're able to turn off the wind a little bit and really open up that wing to the wind and have it throw you around. Yeah, but it seems like also like you always pop up and try to get some height before you throw yourself forward, right? Like you don't want to just instantly throw yourself forward as soon as you come off the water, right? Totally. Especially for front flips, it's a lot easier to get a high jump than for back flips. Because of the way you're holding the wing and the rotation of it. So I always like focus, I jump and then pause for a second and think okay, I want to keep going up here. And then when I feel that I'm high enough for the rotation, then I'll commit to the point in the window and talking and going for it. Yeah. So how about some tips for landing? Not just and when you're doing flips, but just in general, what's, what are some tips for make sticking a landing and making the landing. Totally. Yeah. And in general, foiling is actually really nice for landing because you get. Yeah, the front wing and tail wing extended off that mass. So you get like a nice kind of cushion when you're coming in, as opposed to just straight windsurfing, you land so much harder without the foil. Breaking your fall on the water for basically any foil trick. The most important thing is to reach out as you're coming in and you don't want to reach out to the point where you're overextending your knees because then you could hurt them in another way, but you want to reach out enough just so you get elongated when you're coming in. And then as soon as you feel that water coming up, then you want to start compressing and compress as much as you can coming in, using the wing to support your weight as much as pos

Please also watch the video version of this show on the blueplanetsurf youtube channel for lots of cool footage- video by Lucas Purcell  Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show. Today's show is not an interview, but rather a recap where I talk about my experience at the Molokai to Oahu race and what I heard from other competitors at the race. So let's get into it. Okay. So after a three year break for the pandemic and so on, the Molokai race, It finally happened again in 2023 and for the first time it had a wing foil division. So I was really excited about that and signed up for the Wingfo division, as well as a bunch of us from Oahu. And a couple weeks ago we went over to Maui and winged from Maui to Molokai, and then did the Molokai Holokai, and then Molokai to Oahu, a little training run. A couple of weeks before, and then the day before the Molokai race, we flew over and stayed at Kalua Koi, at our friend Eli's place. Beautiful place, right on the water. Here's Derek taking a little cruise on his bike down the path. And at Kalua Koi, the wind is pretty offshore, so the water's smooth on the inside. And the day before the race, the wind was pretty light on the inside, but once you got a little bit offshore, it was pretty strong winds. And Eli and Derek were decided to use our new prototype wings. We had a six meter and a seven meter version of our new wings and Eli was using the seven and Derek, the six meter. And then I opted to choose the, my tried and tested seven meter alien wing that I've been using. Here's Nani. So we're just warming up a little bit the day before the race, getting out there, feeling the water, and so on. Of course on the inside it's pretty smooth, and then once you get further out in the channel, the the water gets a lot rougher. So the evening before the race, there was a little race meeting, everybody meeting on the lawn. at Koala Koi and then they served up a nice dinner afterwards. So for us the energy at this event was amazing. People come in from all over the world, a lot of people from Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Japan. It's great to see everyone again after like years of not having this event, to see all the top paddlers and foilers from all over the world. It's really cool and to see familiar faces from previous events and so on. So for me personally, this was I think it was like the 11th or maybe the 12th time I did this event. I did it, mostly on stand up paddle boards, or all on stand up paddle boards. I think I did it eight times solo, two times as a team, and then this is the first time I did it as a wing foiler. Derek Hama was collecting signatures for his poster, so that was a really cool idea, and he got a ton of signatures during the event. And this is Terry from Virgin Islands, Alan Cadiz from Maui, just hanging out, chatting, and getting excited about the next morning. And then you can see water is... Pretty calm nice sunset, of course, lots of escort boats. Usually the evening before, escort boats will come close to the beach. There's no harbor there you have to swim out to the boat to get your equipment. Usually the boats take over the equipment. come over from Oahu on the boat. But I usually opt to take a plane because that ride from Oahu to Molokai can be pretty rough when you're going into the wind and into the chop. So it's a pretty rough ride, but many people come over on the boat, but I always prefer to fly over. And then, yeah, you pick up your gear like you I picked up my board and wing from the boat the night before. And here you see a lot of escort boats the morning of the event. Then they have the pre race pule prayer, Hawaiian prayer. And then everyone's getting pretty excited for a safe and fun crossing. And yeah, the pule is always... A great great way to get ready in the morning. Everybody picks up a satellite tracking chip that tracks the race. So that's a good way for people to follow the race live. You can see where everyone's position is. Here are the two start buoys in the bay at Kalua Koi. And then this was the first start at... I think it was 7 30 a. m. I want to say it was the prone paddle board start Drones in the air and here's the Start everyone charges off It's of course a long race, but still you don't want to be left behind at the finish So everyone always paddles hard right from the beginning you definitely want to conserve your energy because it's a long race. And yeah, the beginning, the water was pretty calm. Pretty smooth water. Not a lot of chop in the water. So for, especially for the stand up foilers. You can see these conditions are not ideal for getting up on foil or pumping. So it's pretty much, there, there was some wind at our backs, but pretty much the stand up foilers had to pump up onto, up on foil and then pump pretty far to get to where it started to get a little bit easier with some bumps pushing them along. So this is the prone division. Of course, the... M2O is known as the Paddleboard World Championships, and that's how it all started. Surfers looking for something to do in the summertime in the North Shore, they started to pick up longer surfboards and paddle distances and found it was really good training for the winter. So for a long time, the Molokai Race Paddleboard Division was dominated by Jamie Mitchell. who's won it many times, but he hasn't been competing the last few times. It's still dominated by Australian paddlers. The top three male Unlimited and top three male stock division were all Australians. And the winner this year was Charlie Vercoe from, 22 year old from Australia winning the race on an Unlimited board in 453. And especially considering these difficult conditions, that's quite the accomplishment to paddle it in under five hours many. took much longer than that. It was definitely a challenging race at the end with the northerly currents pulling against you. The stand up division was a little bit smaller this year, still a good contingent of paddlers though, but a lot of the pro racers that used to compete in stand up paddling are now on stand up foil boards, including people like James Casey, who won the stand up unlimited in 2019 Kai Lenny, and many others that used to compete in stand up racing are now stand up foiling. So that seems to be the big competitive division now. But Mo Freitas from Oahu competed in the unlimited division. And so it, it was a competitive race for stand up paddling but a smaller field than before. And then here in the... That NSP, blue and green NSP board, is the paddler from Japan who was this year's champion in the Unlimited for the first time, a Japanese paddler winning the Molokai to Oahu race. Yusuke Hyogo, 36 year old from Japan, won the Unlimited stand up paddleboard division in 445. So that's an impressive time considering especially the... The difficult conditions as you see a couple of the blue planet bump rider boards really proud of All the competitors that used our blue planet boards. They did really well, so I'll talk about that some more later You can see here that the water on the inside was pretty smooth and it's just there was some wind from the back, but it's it's not, there weren't a lot of bumps pushing you along because, the wind's offshore. You can see all the escort boats lined up. They are supposed to wait for 30 minutes before joining the paddlers to keep the wakes and the churned up water to a minimum. But you can see how these conditions are definitely challenging for foiling because, yeah, the stand up foilers have to pump up on foil in these pretty calm waters with not much wind from their back. Here you see Moe Freitas. And this is the start of the foil division. So like I said, yeah, the water was pretty smooth on the inside, so stand up foilers had to really work to get up on foil basically flat water start and then pump pretty far out. Versus wing foilers we were able to take off pretty quick. There was a decent amount of wind, it was pretty light, but seemed like there was a little bit of a gust in the early on. And that helped us get going in the beginning, had a decent start, and pretty good wind in the beginning, and then later on during the race it got a little bit lighter. And I, we don't, didn't get drone footage from the start, but you can see the prone foilers, the stand up foilers pumping along, working hard, and then the wing foilers. Flying off to a good start. I was on a Blue Planet Wing Racer board 5'10 5'10 by 21 inches, so a longer, narrower board, and a 7 meter wing, and then a Mike's Lab. 600 foil with a 103 centimeter mast and you know that combo worked out pretty well. Had a good amount of speed right from the start. Trying to chase the faster paddlers ahead of me. So there was yeah, a few ahead of me. Especially Alan Cadiz who I was trying to keep up with. He was on a Mike's Lab 540. Which I think had a little bit higher speed, but then maybe with my 600, I was able to go a little bit steeper, a little bit steeper downwind angle, which was important because yeah, but that northerly current we ended up having to crisscross quite a bit. You just, you couldn't just take a straight line to the, to portlock. And Yeah, here we're already getting close to Oahu. It's skipped a bunch, but the middle of the channel got a little bit light. There were a good amount of bumps, and pretty steep bumps, and a lot of good riding, but just the wind got a little light, so even with the 7 meter wing, I find myself pumping the wing and the foil quite a bit, trying to keep a good angle. And then I'm a regular foot. Winger. And I just find that I'm not very good at switching my feet. I'm not as fast if I try to, put my feet the other way. I was basically riding most of the way with my body kind of twisted toe, my, my toe side direction. And then, at the very end, I started catching up to Alan Cadiz. He got quite a bit ahead of me, but then I caught him at the end. And then, I made it into the bay and I was like pushing hard upwind and then I just caught an edge and crashed and I fell and then Alan passed me again. But, overall I was pretty happy. I finished the race in an hour 55. I lost a little bit of probably another five minutes at the end, but I was definitely stoked to finish. And excited about my time that I finished fifth overall. And the winners in the wing flow division were Finn Spencer, 19 year old from Maui. In 131, amazingly fast time. And then second place was Aidan Nicholas from Auckland, New Zealand. And 137, and then third place Bobo Gallagher, 14, from Lahaina. And then fourth place was Alan Cadiz from Maui. And fifth place was myself. And Alan and myself were the first and second in the 40 and over division. I think Alan is already 60 and I'm 55, cool that us older guys can still be up there and mix it up with the young pros. Pretty stoked. And then in the female division Nani from Oahu, who's been winging with our group won the won the female race in 2. 10, so she also had a very fast time. So congrats, Nani, on a really good crossing. And then in first place in the wing foil team division were my friends Eli and Derek that we've been training together with so stoked that they finished right up there as well. And they did the team division as a two person team, but they both did the whole race, so they basically shared the escort boat and started together and finished together it's a cool way to do the race, just basically staying together and basically you're only going to be as fast as the slower winger. And then after the race, I got a chance to interview James Casey, so you should definitely check out that interview. He won the stand up foil division. I also interviewed Nani, and then Derek and Eli. Those interviews are posting soon. Here are the overall results again. Like the wing floaters definitely dominated the top, top ten fastest times. But we also finished at the blinker buoy versus the, everybody else had to paddle into the bay. So with the prone boards that was definitely a challenge to paddle all the way into the bay. James Casey shared a pretty cool story about that, how that all went down, so you might want to check that out. So I added a few more photos of the award ceremony after the event. Every time the Molokai Toaho race is held, they have an award ceremony at the Outrigger Canoe Club. It's always a nice event, it makes it a legitimate world championship event. Here are Eli and Derek who won the team Wingfoil Division on the Blue Planet Wings. Good job guys. These are the top female finishers. This time Olivia Piana came in first over Annie Reichard who finished first at the Maui to Molokai race. These are the top finishes in the sub stock division and I'm really stoked because they were all on Blue Planet bump rider boards. This is Kiyomi she was, and they were all on 14 foot bump riders, so stoked about that. And here's our Blue Planet team so had some really good results and not really. happy with the results of the You know the whole blue planet team and get to see our gear working well in these conditions and then here are the all the top stand up foilers James Casey won the stand up foil division, which was a close finish, and he was he was able to catch a little bump, he said, by by pillars. And pump it all the way over the reef, which is definitely a risky move because if you come off foil over the shallow reef, you can get stuck there and, have to paddle with the foil upside down, but he was able to pull off the wind. So congratulations, James, and congratulations, Finn Spencer. I'm going to interview the Spencer brothers soon. Finn Spencer, by the way, had a... Injury on his heel and big infection and he pulled through with it, but he came up on stage with crutches. So congratulations Finn and stay tuned for more blue planet shows. We bring out some more interviews from this race and many more interviews to come. So thanks for watching. See you on the water. Aloha.

 Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show, which is all about foiling. Today's video is basically a recap of the Voyager X Wet Feet downwind race here on Oahu. It was probably the biggest foil race we've had here on Oahu anyways, maybe anywhere. I'm not sure, over a hundred participants. So it's cool to see so many people entering. Standup paddle racing has been shrinking, but foiling is definitely growing fast. I'm talking with Brian Tricario and Derek Hamasaki. Who finished first and second in this race, in the wing foil division. And we got some really great footage from many different people filming along the way, so I really appreciate everyone submitting their footage, sending it to me so we could put together this video for you. We have the first part, which is a quicker recap of the race, put together by Lucas who also was flying the drone and so on. And then the second part we go into a little bit more detail and showing a lot of footage of the race itself. Harold was in a dinghy following the whole race with this camera, so got some good footage from along the race, so I hope you enjoy it. Without further ado, here is the Voyager Downwind race. Aloha friends, it's Robert with Planet Surf and I have Alex Aguera with me here getting ready to get on the water for the maybe the biggest down wind foil race ever. What do you think? I don't know about that, but it's got quite a lot of participants. I heard there's a hundred people competing today, so it's big. Yeah. And it's all foiling. Standup foiling, wing foiling, and then also some guys are doing prone foiling from Cromwell to the finish, which is by Suicides. Yeah. What are you using today? I think I'm gonna use a 6.5M and a 600 foil 96 liter board. Good float board. There you go. A big combo. Yeah. And then the wind, it's windy today, so that kind of is good for a bit heavier guys. Yeah. Hopefully I don't get lit up too much. Sometimes I really light guys like Derek are really good at light wind. But then, I don't know, Derek. You say something too. What were you talking about? Talk about your equipment. What you got. Oh, I got a same like Alex 600 front wing hand wing is six meter and a 10 inch tail. Trying to go as fast as you guys. They should have a category of their own, oh yeah. Listen to you. It's called oil company owners. So yeah. We'll add that next time. Oh yeah. So we see you. And then hope you enjoy the race. Okay, so I got Derek Kawasaki and Brian Rio here with me, and we're gonna do a little voiceover of this race. So thanks for joining me guys. Yeah, no problem. Awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah. So we're gonna talk a little bit about. The race. Do a little race recap, talk about who is in the race, the equipment strategy, technique, conditions, training the upcoming races in July. And then also, how, how standup foiling compares with the wing foiling. And the first part of the video is a shorter recap of the race with some cool drone footage from several sources. So we got Lucas filming at the beginning for some. Water shots from Derek and also Jeff Chang. And then Harold is the guy in that dingy who's, who filmed the whole race with his cell phone. So we got some cool footage of the whole race. In the second part of the video, we're gonna show a little bit more detail and go into like more detailed stuff about racing and winging and. Standup foiling and all that. I tried to get Kane to Wild on to join us too, but I didn't hear back from him, unfortunately. So I'm trying to get this video up by tomorrow, Saturday, a week later after the race. Pretty exciting. So maybe you guys talk a little bit about the start, right? Go ahead, Derek. Okay. The start was Pretty, it was pretty organized. People was spread apart, wingers were drifting further up, wind. We could fly up wind and then just sit with the sub guys going down. So we all just hung out. They gave us a one minute prior to they said we're ready to go. And then Everybody's sitting down on their boards or crouching down on the boards. And once it said go, it was on the wind was cranking out there. It was nice and it was a steady flow. I know a lot of people said they had a hard time getting up in the beginning cuz the bumps was outrageous, which is good. Yeah. What, how was your start, Brian? Yeah, it was good. It was hectic. A lot of people around A lot of people, you got your wingers starting, some are going right, some are going left, and then you have your sub coilers pretty much starting straight down swell. So if you weren't on the end and you were in the middle of the pack, there was a lot of traffic. So getting up fast was critical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You definitely wanna get up quick and get going in front of everybody. That way you don't have to dodge everyone. And then also whatever boats or safety, and vessels was out there, the skis or whatever. Sometimes you gotta go chew their things and then you cannot push it. You want to just get through and whatnot. But it was, yeah, it was real. Get up and try to stay in front, yeah. I thought one thing about the start that went worked well compared to last year that at the Blue Water race, it was really spread out the start line, right? This time they had like a couple jet skis going back and forth. So they made a line like where nobody could get way ahead of everyone else. So that, and plus everyone had to sit on their boards at the start. So I thought the start, it was a pretty, pretty fair start for everyone. Like you said, you did have to make sure you don't have someone right your way as you're take trying to take off. Otherwise you're like especially cuz Yeah, the. Boiler, the standup boilers, we're going straight down wind, and we have to go a little bit at an angle to the wind, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think next time, like when sitting at the dinner table, you go with somebody that's getting up on one right? Reach and you get the other person sitting up on the opposite reach, you don't wanna be going crossing, right? Yep. True. So this is Kane the wild harold followed Kane pretty much the whole race with his dingy. So we got a lot of footage of Kane and then I think this is you Derek. Yeah. Yeah, I think you and I crossing back and forth in between. Yeah. And then this is getting close to the finish line, and as you can see, there was like a buoy on the outside of the waves. But then there was the wave, the surf was pretty big. And you couldn't really see where the finish was. Yeah, I couldn't, there was like, I was right. I came in first. I had no idea. I like, I just didn't know the area very well. But you can see here, there's that channel and I ended up too far. Upwind coming in too far. Upwind of the channel. And then you also came up in too far up when yet Derek? Yeah, I hooked around the buoy and then I, but I came in cause I saw you. So I pulled back up when, and I came into the finish line, but. Unfortunately when we were in that channel, there was no buoys. Oh crap. And yeah. So then all of a sudden there's both of us didn't see the finish line and went to the wrong, cuz you went too far upwind. And then and then Brian. Yeah. What happened when you came in? You saw us too? Or what? What happened? No, I thought you guys finished already. I came in before I hit that red buoy I fell cause I was too busy looking at where the channel was cuz you couldn't see anything. I was just focusing on where's the channel looking right? And I wound up breaching, falling. It's on the video too. And then I'm scrambling to get back up and made the right and I shot straight for the white condos. And then at the top of the swell I saw Jeff on the inside on the ski. And I just tried to shoot for the ski when I could see it. And I barely snuck in on the town side of the channel. I wound up going right at the pilings dry reef area and Saw that last second and hooked right. And snuck in there. But it was definitely a, it was tough to spot that channel. Yeah. Yeah. Congrats on that. So Brian won the race and then Derek came in second. Yeah, I guess so Derek, you were able to turn around and go back out and back in again? Or like how did you end up finish? Yeah. Yeah, so initially when I first came in, I saw you and I was like, okay, right on Robert first, and then I'll just come in behind, and because I didn't see any of the suppers too, so I was like, oh, okay. Awesome. But. When I was coming in, there was set waves, so in front of me was all white water. I couldn't see the reef, nothing at all. And then behind me, the wave was overhead, so I just had to hold onto my wing and just hope for the best, yeah. You just focusing on me at all. Yeah. I didn't wanna fall and get cleaned out by the. White water behind me. So just went in and then once we went in and realized, okay, this is the wrong spot. Went to turn, hit the reef and went down, I'm like, oh, crap. And then while I was in the water trying to get up, I looked over towards the west and I noticed the ski and the other buoys and go, oh, crap, too early. Okay. So I was able, there's enough wind coming in that area for the foil that I was on and my weight. Get back on foil. Come up and fly around. And then when I was coming around, I saw Brian's wing that was inside. So I was like, oh, okay that's it. So came in like just skirted the reef on that channel and then just came around and then passed the boy evening and then did that. Cool. All right. So here we have the start again. So we doing a little bit extended version of the race again here, and then Harold's following Kane to Wild, and you can see he got a really good start, like pretty much on the second bump that went under Hemi. He was able to take off and then he just took off at high speed. I, he has a lift 900 foil, I think. So really pretty small foil for standup foiling. And he was flying, he was making really good time. Yeah, it's actually I was amazed how fast he was going. Cuz I, I thought I was going pretty fast with the Mike's lab five 40, which is a pretty fast foil. And the wing and the, the wind was pretty strong. But he was right there. He was like, we were just head to head for quite a while and then, Actually the only other person I saw Rami was Derek. And you were more on the inside, right? Yes. You took more of an inside line, right? Yes. But let's talk a little bit about the difference between wing foiling and standup downward foiling. So I guess one of the things is definitely that you can tell is that you can see I'm like zigzagging a little bit back and forth. I. And then the more I turn down wind, the less wind I have in the wing and Kane is just going straight down wind in a straight line almost, like doing some turns and stuff. But I guess that's one of the things that we can probably go faster, but it's harder for us to go straight down, win, right? Yeah, we cover more distance, but yeah they they can just go, we go faster and more distance, but they can just go straight, straight or line. Yeah. I think if it was windier. If it was windier and we can actually go straight down wind, that's another story but's, it's gotta blow real hard for that with a big wing, but Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is also that once you're going straight down wind, Then no matter how windy does it usually, like you end up going faster than the wind. A lot. If you're on a bump going straight down wind, basically the wind is almost there's just no wind in your sail. So no matter how big your wing is, it's gonna be in the way. Actually in the bigger the wing is, the more drag it has too. Yeah that one training run I tried using an eight meter wing and it did have more power, so I could go a little bit steeper angle down one, but then once you are going faster than the wind, then it's such a big wing and it's in the way more, it's harder to jive and handle in the air. So in this race I was using a six meter, which that's the size you were using too, Derek, right? How is it? Yes. How is six meters for you? It was perfect. I was able to use it as a almost an umbrella holding down wind and use it as straight, they didn't really need to go left and right, could just hold it up and down like the center truck. Just straight up and down and just, I just had to make sure I wasn't going through a trough or, not in anybody's way. But yeah, it was pretty good. Really good. What about you Brian? What was your strategy for trying to go fast? I. Just I tried to go farther outside hoping the wind was a little better out there. It was still good everywhere, but yeah, I just, I tried to go left a little more and just try to go get as far outside without going too crazy. And then just whatever bumps I ride, continue left and just keep trying to go left. So when it's time to go down, wind it's a little easier for me, but, Yeah, I was looking for you guys outside thinking your way outside and I didn't, I wasn't seeing you. So then I finally, I looked on the inside and I was like, oh, there's Derek and Rob. But yeah. Did you feel like, it seemed to me like in the middle of the race, like closer as we were getting closer to Diamond at, it seemed like it was like flattened out a little bit. Yeah, it would the bumps were really nice in the beginning. Yeah. And then there was a little, there kinda a middle part that was not as good. Yeah, I felt to having, I had to pump the wing a lot just to keep the same speed as I had in the beginning between pumping the foil and pumping the wing. Yeah, there was definitely a little bit of a lighter in the middle. Yeah. I think the ground as well was, actually, let me talk about this real quick. I'm sorry. Kane. Oh, Kane this is where Kane fell in. I didn't see it happening, but he said he thought he hit a fish maybe underwater, like it just his foil just stopped and he, so he went over the handlebars and then his board is like super narrow on the bottom. It just pretty much just rounded off bottom with a very small flat area. And and that, and then this was all, and it was Derek, so yeah, I was like, oh, come on Kane, go. So the board is so tippy and narrow. And then this was the area where it was a little bit flatter, not as, the bumps were a little bit and the wind was lighter. So it was actually, he said it was pretty hard for him to get going again and he actually like pulled himself off the board here trying to get on one. But, so it's actually pretty impressive that even though he fell in, he was still able to win the race. And then that was also cause. You can see here that several guys passed him and then, but then he was still able to pull, catch him at the end. Yeah. And just get him in the end. And so you really, you can tell how big of a difference it makes if you just fall in or a anything, get delayed for a little bit. Can't get up on foot right away. Cuz everyone's so close together, moving so fast that yeah, just a small. And everyone else is like now way ahead of him. Like you can see our our wings are like kind of way in the distance. Yeah. Yeah. So what about your Derek what was your strategy? I noticed you were a little bit more on the inside, right? Yeah. Never really had a strategy. It just was follow you. That's pretty much how I was doing so, but the one thing I learned is when I was coming by Diamond Ed, I felt fell in actually I fell three, three times I fell. Oh. And one thing I learned was don't use polarized glasses out there. Cause it, it gives you a false sense of depth perception. Oh I can see, I could see through the wave and a few times I went left to go over that swell and to the next one. And my rail was just caught into the wave and I was like, what the heck? Fell, get back up, go in again. And then as soon as I fell twice, I took off Myla, put my glasses on top of my hat, and then I was like, okay, now I can see the, through the true, Height the depth of the wave. And then I was good and then the last time I fell was inside on that shallow reef and then had to fly again. But yeah just follow the line. Sometimes it's hard. I know even when it is doing regular Santa braces and when you're in a front, it's hard because you don't have anything really pushing you. But sometimes when you behind somebody, you can just trail 'em and find their good stuff. But I did learn not to follow Rob to the ending because he never had, he didn't have his, he usually don't have his glasses and he. Wrong turn or whatever. Then you follow him and you're like, oh man, what's going on? Yeah. When I'm driving, I'm wearing glasses cuz my vision is not the best. So Yeah. Don't follow me at the finish, especially if I have no one else to follow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that was good. It was a strategy. I just went on the inside, the fastest line, and then even when it got lighter on the inside, when I seen you got, people was breaking away, I was able to just hold my wing straight up and down and just pump it that way and then try to get going. So I, instead of switching hands how like you would go hill side, toe side, whatever, I would just stay. Side and just raise the wing straight up and down with the leading edge up, point it up to the sky and hold it that way. And then go angle it left a little bit if I wanted to or Right. And then that way I don't waste time switching hands and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah. So basically you always keep your hands in the same position. You just even if you turn out a little bit, Turn in, majority of the time. Yes. Yeah. That's a good strategy basically. And then the more you can go straight towards the finish, the better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brian and Robert were you guys using your extra leash or the long leash to catch more when deal? Like a kite ish reach. No, I wasn't. Just cuz I've had, I've fallen a couple times when I let the front handle go and use the leash. It works fantastic, but I have to pay too much attention to the wing when a gust comes and then less attention to the swell and the waves and then I wind up crashing or something. I have less control of the wing with it in the, in these down, in the bigger down winter days. But like surfing, absolutely like surf when we go out in the White planes, whatever. Absolutely. But not this situation. No. No. Ok. Yeah, same here. I've tried that in the past where I just let the wing fly a little bit higher cuz you can, it seems like you can catch a little bit more wind up higher. But yeah, like Brian said, you just don't have as much control of the wing, especially like I find myself going faster than the wind, a lot of times, like I said, when I turn straight down wind and I'm going on a fast bump, I'm actually holding the wing up, up on top of my head, flatten air, and sometimes with the leading edge. Pointing forward, because that's where the apparent wind is coming from, and then as I slow down, then I turn back in, then I turn it back into the wind, so doing a little bit of a dance with the wing and you need to have really good control of the wing to do that, obviously. Yeah. So you gotta hold it, hold onto it real tight. Yeah. Using those sharp handles. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And what about the foils? Let's talk a little bit about the foil. The foil wings you guys were using, you, you were both on the same go foils wings? No. I think Derek had the 600, I had the six 50 I had the six 50 with the 12 long tail. Derek, what did you have? I had R six. 600 front wing and a 10 inch long tail. So a lot, little bit faster, but more stability than the shorter ones. The shorter feizer, especially since we wanted to, just overtake bumps and stuff like that. Yeah, we wasn't really surfing that one bump or going right and left. I found it more just going over and keeping, like leapfrogging kind of stuff. Especially in a way if the wind allows you, in your wing to catch bumps versus riding swells. Yeah. And then here along, along Diamond head, the bumps got really nice again. Yeah. There were some good fast moving bumps right here. Yeah. Yeah. Great conditions on me. Hit diamond head. Yeah. So you was I noticed Rob, you were on an outside ish and then you shot in, Slingshot in right? Yeah. I kept looking for, I trying to look for where the wind was. And it seemed like the, just the wind line was, to me it's, it looked like it was windier further out. So I tried to stay further out. And then at the end, I figured it's probably better to stay a little bit further out until I get closer and then come in, to avoid any like light wind areas close to diamond after Diamond Lighthouse. Yeah. Cause we did the days before, we did couple trial runs and into the original. So on the race day, they changed the. Channel to a further one further west, which is more towards Waikiki, which is more wind shadowed. So we practice at one. Came out the second day when we came to practice and Jeff said, no, that's not it. It's the next one over. So we went to the next one over and we went in and out a few times and were like, okay, this is gonna be a breeze. We got it. Okay. We lined up the park and all that. And then the restate, I said, no, not those ones. The next one. So yeah, and by the way, there's huge surf and you can't really see where you're going, so yeah. But it was a good call. But they did tell us, actually they did tell us aim for that first building. Like Brian was saying, he aim at the condo building, which was smart. And then I remember. Also Todd Bradley's telling us before the race to make sure you don't go too early, cuz then you get stuck by the reef at suicides and sure enough, that's where we ended up. Yeah. Remember Todd saying, do not cut the corner. It's okay. Don't cut the corner. Yeah. So when you get your shot, go Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Ahead. No, but that was a good call because the waves were large. There were surfers in the water, the wind around the corner, but what, was like it, it did a little funkiness, so it was a good call for them to move everything little bit further down the coast, but it still was black, pretty black diamond ish that day of the race. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So the finish like coming in through the surf. Yeah, that was Also a little bit scary, right? You don't want to get don't wanna end up in the wrong place coming in through big surf. But here you can see everybody lined up in front of him. So there's what are their names? I think one of them is Nick. And Nick. When he got in the surf, he, I think he fell and broke his paddle. Oh I read that and then that's how Kane was able to pass him and win the race. But you can see I think Derek and me in the front there. Yeah. But yeah, so that it just like the, just because you're leading the race doesn't mean you're gonna win it. So just making it to the finish line is important. Not just in, in racing, but in life as well. So gotta, yeah. Yeah. Make it to the right goal. Not just get ahead. So anyway. And then, but it's kinda cool. Cool. Brian, for you to win this race, cuz you, you're in the Coast Guard, right? And you you're mo getting moved soon, right? Yeah, I'm moving in one week to Sitco Alaska. Yeah. Sunny Tropical, warm Sitco, Alaska. Yeah. He is taking his trophy with him, bragging right. Everything. Yeah, it's awesome. So yeah, it's awesome that you were able to win this race and it's cool too cause we've been all been winging, practicing together. We did a bunch of long runs together. Yeah. And so it's cool that all of us did well and then E Eli as well, Eli was always coming with us too, and just, yeah. Yeah. To have all of us in the front is, was pretty cool. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Fun times. Yeah. Yeah. It is the end. That was definitely a hectic end. Yeah. Yeah. The ending. So some parts of the ending I that I see and then what I noticed was there would probably be, and this was the first one, so you know, like we can only improve from here, is just tell the guys, and I see it in the sub world, the a, the o C one canoes. As soon as you pass, just keep going. Like what happened a bunch of times, and I know some of the wingers were saying that the guys would pump to the end and as soon as they crossed the booth, they would stop and sit down and be right in away. And we're coming in and we're like, oh shucks, you guys gotta move. And then not a clear path to, to come in. Cause that channel was fairly small. Yeah. The width of it wasn't too wide at all. Yeah. So when you sit down right at the finish line, you're blocking the entrance of the channel, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And if, especially if you had a wing or something, oh man. Yeah. No, you're right. And then so Harold was obviously didn't want to go inside the surf with his dingy, but he stayed outside by that orange buoy and kept filming until he said until his phone died. Good footage of everyone going in there. Coming true. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely pretty hectic. And like you can see that there's, it's hard to see where the, even where the finish line is. You can see that orange buoy, which is good that they put that out. But that's me falling right there. Oh, that was you? That's me flipping the wing back over and getting back up right there. Okay. So I fell right before the, and I thought that was it, but I managed to get back up fairly quick. Yeah and I think there was like, I think there was three standup foils that came in front ahead of you, right? Yeah. There was a couple sitting in the finish line channel and yeah, it was definitely tight. Yeah. And there was hard, there was no good escape either. You went in and you had to, if you wanted to go back out, you had to go back out the same small way you went in. And it was hard cause everyone else was coming in. So you just had to Eddie, Eddie passed me once we were in, he passed me and went right to the beach on foil. Went over the shallow reef. I was like, oh, that's a great idea. So I just followed Eddie once I got back up on to the beach. Oh, okay. I ended up, oh I think I ended up just going back out and heading up to Diamondhead, cuz that's where we parked our cars. Yeah. Here's Eli coming in and I think. Yeah, so I guess Derek I'm still on the inside. I was getting worked by the waves. I couldn't really get up back up on foil cuz the waves kept pushing me in and the reef was shallow, so I had to go out drifting around the reef and then it took me probably five minutes to get to the finish line, which I was so bummed out. Yeah. That was super unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he was, yeah, the whole way he was up there and then you went in Yeah. And then I guess you came in yeah. You can't see Derek, but you came in, you went back out and then came in and finished second, right. Derrick? Yes. And then you could just Josh was the son that turquoise wing and I was just drifting in and he came in before I did. And then I came in and then next was Nani. I think This is Nani. Yeah. Nani was the first female finisher, so she was she also won the blue water race last year. She's really fast, so I wouldn't be surprised if she's She's one of the top contenders for the races moloka and moloka Ma Moloka and Moloka. Tohu, I think were the females. Yeah. And then I'm not sure who this was. Do you know? No. Set, maybe. Anyway. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, so the, this finish was definitely a little bit challenging for me especially. I think this was, is this Eddie with the PPC Wing? Yeah. He's got a ppc. Yeah, might have been. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I know the first, the couple days that we went be prior to it was like you coming in and it was. Pretty much flat, no waves at all. Yeah. And we would be flying in and going okay, there's a reef. There's a reef. Okay, I can come in here. Okay, I can get as close as I can and, cut this corner here and whatnot. The day of the race, as you can see with all that white water there, it was, there's no even if you was to cut it or go wide or go whatevers, you couldn't see the reef, before, before days before. You look at the, whitewater and you go, okay, I know Reef is there. Saturday, man, there was white water everywhere. It was pretty much had closed all sets from Diamond Head all the way to what is that? Suicides or Kaimana Beach or something. Yeah. And then there's like breaking white water right behind you. So you're like, who don't, I don't wanna fall, don't breathe, don't preach. And it's like the last thing you looking for is where's the finish line? It's just just make it in through the surf, right? Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Once you made that turn, you were committed. And if you, a lot of people missed the channel, passed it on the town side, and yeah. You couldn't turn around That was it. Like they, I don't think anyone tried to really turn around cause they couldn't. Yeah. By the time they realized Brad, I think I tried. Yeah. I think on the list, if you look at the official listing, there's a lot of people that had d n s did not. I don't know what it was, start or finish, but Jeff didn't clock anybody that didn't come in front of the buoy and in front of the jet ski. So all the guys who passed him and went over the reef. And had to walk, on the sand and whatnot. He didn't, he just didn't have time to look around and clock him. So pretty much everybody finished, like they did the whole course. They came in, nobody had to be rescued. But if you didn't go in front of the jet ski, the official one, then you did not get a official okay you finished the race. Yeah, I noticed that too. Only about half of the participants had a time next, next to their name, right? Yes. Like on both the wing foiling and the standup foiling. But yeah. In terms of total racers, I think this might be a record. A number of racers here at the Voyager race Voyager wet Feet race, they had over a hundred people signed up for the race. Oh, nice. Pretty impressive. How many people were at the starting line now. It was cool seeing, yes. Yeah, it was cool seeing everybody out there. Yeah. Yeah. I did notice I don't know if you guys knew other people, but I did notice people from Maui, Kauai, Oahu, and I did hear somebody came from the mainland that was just in town and they're like, yeah I'll participate. But I'm not sure if any international travelers have ever here. Not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if people come to this race in the future cuz it's it was, yeah, it was definitely a cool event for sure. Yeah. Good conditions. Good. Heck hectic, beginning, hectic end, but great downwind conditions. Yeah, for sure. What is do you think that there could be a different format or scenario for. Like for the finish or just overall champion or would it be just fine that one and done kind of deal? I don't know. What do you think? I, the, I guess the finish was part of the challenge of this race, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. No, I just was thinking like out of the box if they do it again. Like different classes, everybody go. Yeah, definitely different classes cuz you want to include everyone. You don't want the guys to pay, their entry fee and then they come in 10, but that's their personal goal when they get it and you don't, you just want to like, yeah, you did great or whatevers. But I always thinking the first crew goal, the first, everybody go one time and then from there, the top 10 people that cross you take them up and say, okay, now we're gonna do another run. And then you eliminate that, then this way, you know what wing works for you. You know where the finish line is, you know where this is. So you can do a elimination thing and if even if you wanted to, you could go from the top 10 people take, okay? The last round, which is gonna be a finals, will be the top five or four or three. And then from there you'll be like, okay, whoever win this, come in. And then by that time, If everybody's still interested, they're gonna be on the beach with cameras and watching and like they're gonna fully focus on this last crew of five people coming in, which, which could be really interesting, yeah. If you get dedicated shuttle drivers, it could all happen pretty quick, I think too. That's a great idea. Just cause it's a 25 minute run, so Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Cause how long it took for us to get our gear together, pump up, screw everything, do this, drive up, drive back, and then we was on the water like shock so quick. Yeah. But yeah, that would be, yeah, that's an interesting concept for sure. Yeah. Yeah, because like this one, if you known, if we known it, it might have been a different result. And then we could also choose, okay, we can change the different foil, we can get a bigger hand wing follow this guy. Go way outside, go way inside. It could, you could have varies, but you could also just had that little elimination kind of deal. Yeah, I know right now we're just in the infant stages of it, this is the way that you could would show great competition kind of deal. Yeah. It's almost like the prone, the pros I think just kept doing runs and runs and they could have changed gear and did whatever they wanted between runs and the airport so he could get his plate. Yeah, something like that. But like a little bit of an elimination too. Yeah. Cuz that's the prone, the prones were un right? Like you said they could just go from 1230 to four and doing as fast as they can. The wind, if the wind changes, the flow change or whatever, and, it's you're fastest timing. That's it. Now you're the champ, but. Yeah. You can do multiple runs and do whatever whatever it takes out. And I think that's a cool idea. So this was after the race you got you guys went to to go ride some waves, huh? Oh, yes, for sure. Yeah, that definitely was like after the race, it like, Okay. What now? There's waves, there's wind, we gotta go. So we, we packed up a few people. We just went down to by the airport and we just rode some waves. Yeah, I was too beat. I, like when I came in at Diamond, I, it hit the reef with my new foil and I was like so bummed out. But the finish and then banging my foil, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go home. Yeah, we saw that. We inspected your foil that was up there. Oh man. Yeah, that was, that's a rough one. Yeah. Yeah. But then I was, I came out with you guys the next day and surfed a spot and that was super fun. Big waves. Clean waves and strong wind. It was a nice combination right there. Yes. Yeah. And it was stress free, no. Gotta, we can just take your time coming out. Let the wave come to you, surf it, blast and Alex from Maui was in town too. He came for the race. So he was able to surf some of our south shore spots. Yeah. Your sponsor, foil sponsor, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he was pretty stoked that, that the team, like he was still on the camaraderie of all the different four and everybody else, but also the, how, the, how well the team did. So that was good too. Show for sure. Cause I think the Gofoil team got like the, it was Brian, Derek, and then Eli top three spots you got right. All on go foils. Yes. Yeah. Congrats Brian. Brian carried the team for us. Brian got lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Lucky Brian got very lucky. You got it. Yeah. But that was awesome. Not just luck. Yeah. So follow the right path. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk this spot right there. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the races coming up. So we I'm super excited about Maui in a couple weeks. Derek, you wanna talk a little bit about what we're planning to do? Yeah, so they got the moca coming up, which is a race from Maui, Fleming Beach to. AKA Kai, I believe, AKA Molokai. And that's another channel crossing between the islands. I believe it's 27 miles. So we're a bunch of, there's a bunch of people that's gonna do that race on wings, on standup boards, race boards, canoes, then whatnot. But our plan is to go up on Thursday, do a couple Mako runs on Friday, do the race crossover. Hang out on Molokai on Friday and then Saturday there's another Kamala Run, which is a 10 mile run, and we're gonna participate in that too. Yeah. And then on the day after that race, we were planning to just wing back from Molokai back to Oahu. Yes. And we got like an escort boat to go with us as well, with our group. Yeah. Sunday, maybe two depending on Yeah I guess two escort boats on that Sunday. So yeah I'm super excited about that, that basically we were just gonna fly to Mali and then Wing back to, yeah, wing back from Maui to Molokai to Oahu. Pretty exciting. Yeah. And then, yeah, maybe we can meet up with some of the Maui crew on that Thursday before the race and just do some winging or foiling, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we got what, 27 miles in the length of moca and then another 32 miles to Oahu. So it's gonna be a pretty long trip, but. The good part. There's Harold. That's Harold right there. Harold's the guy in the dingy. Yeah. Yeah. He is the dingy. Yeah. But the good part is the last stretch, which is the longest. We're gonna just be cruising to get back home. We're, we won't be like pushing the limits. We're just going go as fast as the slowest person yeah. Yeah, we can relax, yeah, and that was really fun too when we did that. White planes run that. We also made a video about that. It was cool to be able to just take our time and but also, and it's not that you can't go fast, it's just that you can still go fast. You just turn around and then if you're ahead of people, you just wait. And yes, if you get way behind, then you try to go a little bit faster, right? Catch up. Yeah. So catch up or slow down, go upwind a little bit, whatever, so circle around. Yeah. Yeah. Not that hard to stick together as a group. No. With the wings for sure. Yeah, definitely. We can all share, if we had a stop board, then it would be unless you're one of the wonder ones that can pump up wind, then yeah. It'll be hard to stay together. But It'll be good too. Cause after Sunday, once we get back, we'll watch the boat and whatnot. Then we can probably take a few days off. I don't know about you Rob, but because we have a, we have the next crossing the Molokai to Oahu coming up right after. I, in two weeks after. Two weeks after that. Yeah. Yeah. So then that's really the biggest race of the year probably for foiling. The moca race is the. The big one. Yeah. So yeah, I definitely wanna be ready for that. Yeah. Yeah. Rest up for that. And then hopefully next year we'll have a race in Alaska that we can do, and Brian will coordinate that, right? Yeah. Foil group one guy. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, no, I'll hopefully get back here for that next year. Come for a visit. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We can get the, we can do a team stuff too, if God will just, try to save up on, on the cost of the boat and whatnot, whatnot. But can definitely do teams or however do make it work. Maybe you can do a crossing from Hawaii to Alaska or the other way around Alaska to Hawaii. Yeah. Straight down, right? Oh, man. Definitely. At least we know some Coast Guard guys, yeah. If we have to have a escort yeah. Right there. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Any last words actually, do you wanna mention anything about safety being from with the Coast Guard, Brian? Oh. Nothing that's not already been mentioned already by you and Derek before the white planes run. You covered, you, you covered everything on the beach before. The white planes run between just always have, the biggest things just have a way to signal people carry the radio, a phone something. So when everything goes wrong, you can get in touch with somebody. For multiple reasons, but yeah, pH phones are huge. It's get a waterproof bag. We always all carry phones in our, however, and carry a phone. Nine one one works fantastic. Yeah, a good backup would be vhf. But for, at least for this area, everything's within a couple miles of the beach. Phones always pretty much always have reception here. Yeah, for the channel races, it's probably better to rely on a V HF radio or e or something like that. Or something satellite E vhf or, yeah. They, like when I go to Alaska the Garmin's got the satellite texting device. I forgot what it's called, but that's what's gonna be in my pocket cause there's no cell service up there and, yeah. Go. I forgot what it's called, but they work fantastic. I know which one you talking about. Yeah. Yeah, like a small handheld gps. Yeah. Yeah. Holy smokes. There's a lot of change coming from here, huh? Oh, who me? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's yeah, it's gonna be interesting. I don't know what's gonna go in like my pack, but. It's gonna be a lot more, you'll be wearing a thick wetsuit and booties and gloves and the hood. Yeah. Five mil boots. Not gonna be able to feel the board. Cause the seven mil of rubber between my heel and the board and the fitting, my hand in the wing loop is gonna be another. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see how that works. And then yeah, I think just the, like the mitigating the safety risk. Because there's no, there's very little rescue assets out there. Like there are, there's tons here. And it's, you have exposure problems out there. You don't have that, yeah. You don't last that long if something goes wrong. Yeah. Yeah. No, here you can, you can last a long time out there and just put it in first gear and paddle and, but you can't really do that out there. Come up, see what we got and come up with a plan and try and maybe convince people to foil out there that's not, yeah, no, that would be a great, be who wants to go, Phil? Yeah. So if anyone's watching here on YouTube from Alaska, that is anywhere close to Brian, maybe reach out. Yeah. What is your Brian, what is your Instagram Brian Trick? I think Brian, t r i c, like a underscore in between or something? Or just Brian, t r i c. One minute I don't look. Yeah, you look at yourself. And what about you, Derek? Where, how can people find you online? Oh, just on Instagram at Derek comma no spaces. D e r e k h a m a. Okay. I just wanted to say too, Derek recently won the subs surfing US championships, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. For that and you massive stand paddle anymore, so that's pretty, pretty impressive that you still got it, yeah. Yeah. Just gotta go. You just got two moves and it can just, just go keep to the two moves, don't get fancy. And then, the rest will just take care of itself. Yeah. I guess your cutbacks, you still do on this foil too, right? It's the same move almost. Oh yeah. Similar. Yeah. Apply the same surfing back. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I've been trying to do in a ways, is try to apply. The same surfing maneuvers, bottom turn, top turns, hit the whitewater full on roundhouse and with the wings and foils, which I know is doable. It's just so tricky because you get the chance of cavitation or just breaching and whatnot. But yeah, I think if you just trust yourself and push the fo the foil you. Should be able to make those kind of maneuvers. I've seen you do it, so I know you can. Oh yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Alright. What is Brian? Brian, what is your quick one? What was your Instagram Brian so that they you up? It's Brian trick with underscore after the C of the last letter, okay. Okay. That's perfect. Brian Underscore. Do you know if there's any a community, foiling community or any kind of gear for sale up on in Sitka? So right now I saw one Foil for sale on Facebook a couple months ago. I haven't seen it lately. So that might be it. FOILING community might the one, foiling community might be gone, but, oh yeah. No, I. Jack has a friend who left said, who did wing foil when he was up there. So I gotta get in contact with him just to get some info about the area so I don't start from scratch. Ok. With conditions and everything and just conditions and zones and safety and see, just pick his brain. But he said he was the only one there doing it, so Yeah. Oh, nice. It'll be fun. Nice. And you have some gear too, like if somebody does want to join you, you'd be able to. Bring them along. At least I have plenty of extra stuff. Yeah. Oh, okay. Hit 'em up, hit Brian out. Probably sell some to be alone. Yeah, plenty of extra gear. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Awesome. All right, guys. Any last words? No thanks. Just get out there, get on the water. Yeah. Thank you. All right I'm gonna wrap this up and put it on YouTube so people can watch it tomorrow. Awesome. Yeah, thanks for joining me. All right. Congratulations, Brian, once again. Keep in touch, man. We'll get out there and try to get stationed back to Hawaii so we can, again. There you go. Absolutely. All right, take care guys. Thanks for joining me. Have a good night. Aloha all.

 Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show, which I record right here in my home office and talking to wing foil athletes, designers, thought leaders, anyone who has something interesting to say. And today's interview is with Olivia Piana. She's an amazing world class athlete, not just in wing foiling and surf foiling and downward foiling, but also in standup paddle surfing, standup paddle racing, wind foiling, kiting and more. She has several world titles in her name. She talks a little bit about the challenges of competing as a woman in these male dominated sports and her about her goals. And then this summer, the moca Oahu race is coming up. We talk about that she's entered to race in that one of the few women doing the downward foiling. I'm entered in that race as well, so I'm looking forward to doing more interviews. Talking to athletes that are entered in this race before and after. So hope you can join me for some of those interviews. As always, you can watch it right here on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app. Just search for the Blue Planet Show. So without further ado, here is Olivia Piana. Okay, Olivia, welcome to the Blue Planet Show. It's great to have you here. Thank you. Hello, Robert? Yeah, so it's you're in Portugal. I guess it's 7:00 PM for you, for me. It's eight o'clock in the morning and Hawaii. Yeah, thanks for joining me and from the other side of the world. It's pretty cool that we can talk like this on Zoom, yeah. I've never talked to you before, so it's good to meet you virtually. But can you talk a little bit about like, how. Start from the very beginning. Where were you born? How did you get into water sports and what, how did you get into what you do today? I was born in Marsai in south, south France. Then I grew up in ban a very small city in the beginning of the Alps. So I was an hour and a half away from the coast, from the Mediterranean Sea. And I, so I grew up on a very natural place with the mountains and I play many different sport. When I was kid, I had the luck to have my parents that really gave me the opportunity to discover many things. And my mom is a windsurf fan. And when I was kid she brought me on the windsurf and yeah, I just totally fallen in love to a windsurf thing when I was 12 in in the Mediterranean Sea. And I wanted to dedicate my life to it. It was my dream to be wind surf for pro and to compete around the world and to win titles. And I had my my like some champions that I really loved. And yeah, that's that's how I discovered the patient for the ocean, the wind and the wave and wind surfing is my first sport. Okay. And then, so like you started at 12 years old and then you got into windsurf racing right away or like competing with windsurfing or, yeah, I started with windsurfing P dub race, slalom race. And so I went with my mom. My mom helped me on the competition and she really loved it too. And I start to travel a bit more. I never compete a lot on the wave, even if I really loved the wind surfing on the wave. But I guess, racing is much more easy to compete than wave riding. And when I was from the Mediterranean Sea in France, it's not really wavy. So yeah I had more opportunity to race and to do slalom. And and yeah, it was the only thing I will be more lucky to be a man a man that, a woman in windsurfing because it was not that easy to have a sponsor and help to compete and to, but I did it anyway and I really loved it. So you like yeah. You're basically, you're saying that the sponsors were not as helpful when you, for women, like they didn't support women as much as men? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I think it's it's a system that the industry is mainly men and then they think the women don't buy the product and then they design the product for the men. And then there is no woman into the sport. But it's more about the history of the sport and the mentality and the vibe on the beach and everything. It's not so welcoming for women and it's like it is, but some women try to make changes, but it's not so easy. Luckily with standard paddling and today with wing foiling, it's really different and there is more opportunity for women to, to compete. But it's changing slowly, but it's not that easy to to improve it. Yeah. Yeah, that's, so I was kid and I was on the beach like, Hey guys, can I really windsurf with you? But yeah, it was basically my most of the people get help for the, from the family or they work to pay everything because windsurfing is super Super expensive. But yeah, it's, it was not so easy, but I did my best and I'm super happy anyway. Okay. And then what came next? Cuz I know you got into all kinds of sports. Standup paddling and then foiling, wing foiling and I, what else? Yeah, and then I discover standard paddling in 2011. It was the day that it was not windy. And then I went with friends with this long and big boards on the waves. And yeah, it was the first time actually that I surf a wave without a sail. And and then thanks to my friend Fred Bonne that. So I live in tar that I met there in Spain. I this guy really pushed me to go into the racing and to compete and we were like a team to go to the event. And it, the funniest thing is I already wanted to compete in wave stopping and the first World Cup was in latter in 2012. And there was also the racing, the surfing and the racing were together. And the title there, there was the overall for was, I think it was the eight, no it was the standard war two before. And there was this overall title for surfing and race and racing. And then I did also the racing, but I was not so motivated to do it. And I won the race. I was like, oh, wow. Actually, it's pretty cool. And I discover how fun is it to race? And it's not only boring, to paddle, paddle, paddle for 15 kilometer. And it was pretty technical. The day after the distance race, we went on the wave to do the technical race. And it was a mix of racing and surfing. And I really love it. And I won again, like it was a bigger crash on the way with all the girls, like surfing and at the mark, like with the racing board. But yeah, it was so fun. And yeah, I got better opportunity in surfing than windsurfing. From the same brands. That's what it was. Very strange. Like the same brands on the windsurfing and stand up industry gave more money to women in surfing. So I was like, okay. And I had the opportunity to compete in standardizing more easy. Okay. So what, who was your sponsor at that time? Who was sponsor? Yeah, sorry to say it, but it was fanatic. Fanatic, okay. But maybe it's the situation, maybe it was more, it give more visibility if, it was just at this time more easy to have a good contract in s than wind surfing. So basically they were probably making more money with standup paddle board, so they wanted to promote that more than windsurfing. Is that basically fanatic, they sell a lot of windsurf boards, but maybe for a woman it was easily, it was more easy to give the good image to sail boards, to sell subs sub boards than wind surfboard. Okay. Yeah. So it was like it was it was like this. So yeah, I start like this. And so that was, so the first time you competed in standup paddling, you basically, you won the racing and then you also won the surfing. So you were the o or No, I didn't won the surfing. The surfing was on the very small waves and I got lost, I think. So I was thinking okay. It was Surfing in competition is not easy because it's very rare that you have the good condition and you can express yourself. And then racing make it much more easy. You just have the start and the finish. And also about the judgment. It's judgment in racing is pretty easy. Just you paddle and you cross the finish line and you have your position. And yeah, and I, and then I got some prize money with this competition and that permit me to go to the next competition and I start like this. Nice. I'm gonna, I'm gonna screen share a little bit from your Facebook page or Instagram or Facebook where they st. Like way in, in the past, but yeah, this was like, I guess you were writing fanatic boards and, but yeah, I guess even early on you were getting like stories in magazines and everything, right? Yeah. This was in the Sri Lanka. This was in Sri Lanka, my first barrel, let's say. Oh. And yeah it has an amazing streak. We were surfing on the wave on the morning and wind surfing on the afternoon. And to have a fanatic as a sponsor on this trip was really cool to do both sports. Okay. Yeah. So after you won your first Santa Paddle race, then what happened? You went to more contests and then traveled, like what? Yeah, basically I really traveled a lot thanks to sap. Standard, bring me everywhere in the world and make me meet a lots of amazing people. And I am super grateful for that. It's so easy and versatile. You can go everywhere. You can go like the picture that you see with many people on the board. I think it's in Leon, in France. On the river. On the river run. Yeah. And yeah, was really the beginning. The very beginning. This picture. Yeah. 2014. And then there was a races on, inflatable boards on in Europe. That's funny that, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The inflatable board there are definitely not as performance as the rigid one, but it's so easy to travel with. Yeah. Is, are the European market, is it still like most people using inflatable boards in Europe on when there go standard path? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There is a lot of inflatable boards for beginner or for people that don't paddles that much. They really love to go on the inflatable board and enjoy their time. Yeah. Makes sense. And actually, they are better and better. They are not good for surfing, for example, but for just paddling on in France for example, we have a lot of beautiful place for just paddle under crystal clear water. Super nice. Yeah, I mean it's just convenient cuz you can pack 'em up small, you can travel with it, take it on the airplane, all that kinda stuff, right? So definitely has some advantages. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then, okay. And then you got more, more and more into standup paddle racing or surfing and both Or what was Yeah. What were you up to? Yeah, I get more and more in racing. I broke my ankle in 2015 and this was very hard because I had to, no, I broke my feet windsurfing in, in Morocco in 2015 and and then it takes six months to recover. And yeah, this was a bit hard, but then I recover, I change sponsor as well to starboard in 2016. And then, yeah, I guess it was 2000 because me, sometime with the years I get I get lost, but thousand 16 I had a little down with the injury and then little by little up and then I was very performance in 2017, 18 and 19. At the PPG in California Pacific game and the I S A I won the, from 2013 to 2017. I got seven time this world champion. Of isa vice versa in technical rates and distance race. Okay. And I was like, what happened to me? I'm always, I'm a lot of time second then I take care. Like I really take care of every little detail and everything. And in 2018 in China I got were the champion of distance race for the first time. Congrats was so amazing. After seven time. Second I was like, finally. Yeah. With the French team. Tell us a little bit about that injury you had in 2016 in Morocco. You said did you get, your foot was stuck in the foot strapp or something? Or did you get Yeah, I was too. I was too late on the wave. I was like behind the lip, and then the lip catch me, and instead of my feet to go away like this, the board just turn on the other way. And then my, the I had the feet be between the mast and the board. It was like very bad. Then I just all my body just twist. And my, my, my foot was still on the strap. And then I just couldn't swim. My gear went away with the wave and somebody helped me with the windsurf to go back to the shore and they didn't discover immediately that it was broken. That's why it was very long to recover. And then when I discovered that it was actually broken was one month, so one month and a half after, because I still had the pain on the foot. And then I just had to rest and to, and I did outer rigor kinda, yeah. Outrigger paddle at, yeah. At that time. In France, we have some clubs from from and I learned a lot during this time how to paddle well with the ian on the typical canoe. And it was actually very good for the training to, to have this injury. Interesting. So basically, and then you came back stronger a after that. What are some things that you learned from the Ians and like for paddle stroke technique that helped you with standup paddle racing? Curious. The same with the Titian is they don't explain, they just show you. And they tell you, but it's like that, look at me, it's the technician. They're the, they have the feeling on the water, they, this is the emotion, this is the, what they feel more that what they think. And yeah, just spend a lot of time on the water with them watching them. And it, it was still not perfect, but for surfing was was good enough. And I, we train on the canoe with six girls and solo. And yeah, on the, we like the different way to train was super interesting that you can do also on the stop with the break and with no break with yeah, difference. Sometimes it was super hard and too much sometimes. But very good to open our mind to to this technique. Interesting. Okay. Okay. And then, so then you came back from your injury and you started then you started winning the races not coming in second or the overall world title like, or Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. I came back, the first race I won again was the race in Paris. In the TIC show. So it was the beginning of December in the winter, and it was the only race of the year that, for the first place there was one plane ticket for the 80, for the award. Oh, nice. Of this race. And I was so happy to win it. Then I went to TA next April, 2017, and I don't remember it was 16 or 17. But anyway, it was around this time. And then when you, when I went to Tahi, when you win the race there, you win a flight ticket again from Paris to Taai to Tahi. So I won the race. And I won another ticket and I was like, wow. So I will, and then I went to Te Eiti like this six, sixth time during three years. And I went twice the year, like on April and December to race there. Okay. Maybe you find some picture from TE here or, yeah. I don't know. Maybe it was already the time of Instagram. And then you were writing for star boards and I guess Yeah. You were on the starboard team. Yeah. At that time I was racing for Star, for starboard. Okay. And yeah, I had some boards there. And what was really cool that it's in, in Titi, we had some Darwin conditions, some canoe. This is in France with the girls. Your canoe team. Yeah. Became, which position were you paddling in? I was in the fourth. Okay. I was the motor, as they call it. Yeah. The power. Okay. This is the clinic I really love to, to teach as well. Yeah. At that time, do you have the date? 2016, at that time I was I was sailing actually boats for starboard. I was wor working on the boat show. I had this job because I was starting again to be a athlete after the injury. And then I got paid by representing the brand on the boat show on the 10th, on the stand. And then when it was the time, Of the race. I just escape from the tent and I went racing and that's how I was able to pay and to travel again. Okay. Yeah. This is in Paris. This is in Paris. And in this kind of boat show the people, they ask you a coffee when you are a woman. I was like, oh, do you wanna know about the boards? Or they, the guys about the boards and the girls are supposed to be puffy. And it was so funny cause there's some people they just don't know. They just like, and I was wearing this blue jackets that is the jacket of the girl that's just bring the coffee and pouring chestain, yeah. Yeah. It was after the winning, yeah. Thousand, yeah. Thousand 15. I won in 2015 and then I went back in 2016. So I went to TE for the first time in 2016. Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool. And all right, so then, so two trips to Tahiti, that where you won tickets, that's a long trip home from France to Tahiti. Yeah. That's 24 hour of flight. Okay. There is LA and then La Tahiti. Okay. And when was the first time you came to Hawaii? I went to Hawaii for the first time in 2013. Okay. After the Battle of the Paddle. It was the first time I went to the US and after the Bachelor of the Paddle, there was the Standard Paddle War in Oahu in Turtle Bay. Then I traveled first to Maui. Then no, actually I'm wrong. The first time I went to. To Maui was for the triathlon the ex ter world championship in 2000. Must be thousand 12 maybe. I'm lost with the years. Yeah. And I compete in triathlon Oh, in Maui. So you also Yeah, I was, because I was living on the mountain and then I couldn't go on the water and I did yeah, trilon for three years and I was selected for the ter world championship and I compete, and actually a friend of mine was was world champion of 2008 in 2008 in Maui. So this guy helped me a lot to go into the, sorry, my dog. To go into the Trilon scene and I, and actually went to Maui to compete in Trilon, but mostly to Windsurf in OK Kipa. And it was the excuse to go there. Okay. That's cool. So how far did you go in the triathlon scene in the three years you were doing it? Did you get win anything or? I got second and junior TER world championship, but it was not so much competitive. I was not so competitive in I'm most competitive in in standup or water sports. But it probably helped you with the endurance, and with the endurance for racing, right? Yeah. Very lot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then standard paddler racing was just a mix of windsurfing and trilon. The endurance and the glide. Yeah. And the paddle technique from outrigger paddling, yeah. You learned? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Okay. So then you're doing, you're competing in standup paddle racing, and then what happened next? You, yeah, what's happened next? I get, I got two other world title in China in 2019 at the World Championship World title. I got the, I got second on the distance race. I got first on the technical and then the big surprise, I won the sprint race, the 200 meter race. But it was my first time I compete on this format. And on the interview I say, okay guys, I think it's just the foing that helped me a lot to paddle hard to take off the board. Cause I never train on the sprinter format because I really prefer to go on the ocean and to play and to enjoy the, what the ocean has to give you, to just compete. Sprint was not so much my what I love to do. And then I got into stand surf oil first in 2017. I got my first board and then into standup foil in Portugal where I live. There is a really nice wave long and smooth wave for foiling. And a bit of current. So it's much better to go there with the step than with the surf. And yeah, I just got addict, addict into filing. But I was really thinking that at the beginning I still train in both race suppress and support because actually my job was to suppress, and the covid arrives 2020. And the actually helped at some point it helped me to stop suppressing because I, it was when you are, when you win races and when you are the leader of one sport, it's super hard to quit and to say, okay guys no, it's my time to. To do something else. And surprising was really my second family. I have so many friends that I met on the competition and I traveled everywhere in the world with, and it's, it was really not easy to stop this and to have another life. But yeah, at some point the covid help making the transition. And it seems like that was a pretty common thing that like the top people in Santa paddle racing discovered foiling, and especially for down winding it's so much more efficient to be on a foil. And it seemed like the whole kind of standup racing scene. Kinda fell apart a little bit because of that, I think. And because of Covid, like there weren't any races for a while and then, and it seems like now, it never got its momentum back too, right? Like it's seems like there's just not as, there's not as many races and not as many people competing anymore in stand paddling. Is that true or is that just my perception? I think so. Yeah. There is a, yeah, and it, I think it, it also depends where you live. If you live on a spot that you can practice downwind for sure you go into sub, sub fo. But there are some athletes there are still sub surprising maybe because they want to continue and they have the will to keep training very hard. And. And yeah, there is Casey. There is some athletes from France, in France that we have many eraser that get into sub foil. It's still it's still not so popular because sub subdominant, like we sub to do subin, to sub surf with the foil. But subin foil at the beginning is very hard, especially two years ago or three years ago. Yeah. Very challeng. So let's talk a little bit about that. What was it like to get, your first time you tried it or like, how, talk a little bit about how challenging it is, yeah. The first, my first unwin with the Sub Foy, I borrowed a board in France from a shop from a friend of mine. It was a Robert Tale bought. Huge one, like 2034 wide, maybe six, two long. And it was a cargo board, it was like this, a bubble. And when is I, it's not about the board, it's about the rider always, but to take off. And when you take off, you are about to fly and you paddle super hard. And then when you are about to take, to serve the swell, you actually don't know what to do. And you take really a while to go, like full commitment to take off the board and let's see what's next? And yeah I think it's real today with the new boards, the long boards, Yeah, it's this is one of my first boards. So this was like in 2019, yeah. 2019. Yeah. And yeah, at the beginning was very tough. Very tough. Yeah. To stop down in fo like in, so in France, the, my first dunin, I didn't take off. Maybe I just take off off for a kilometer for eight kilometer. I had a ten second of foiling. And yeah, just kept going. And I remember in Portugal, my first I tried to go for a 28 kilometer run with the Kayak east. With the kayak guys. And I, maybe I fly for half an hour in total, and I did it in three hour and a half. Wow. I was like, exhausted. I was like, what the fuck? And now this run, I do it in an hour and 30 minutes. Yeah. So more than two hour less. It's when there is really a big difference when you fly and when you don't fly, it's it's huge difference. It's lot. Yeah. And then if you paddling the whole way with a small board and a foil underneath, it's hard worker. It's very hard. Yeah. It's so hard. But, now with the big long again, it's it make it much more easy and. It's so cool because I think many people can get in into the sport and have more opportunity to enjoy it. And we are already at the start of something really cool. Yeah. Sport and also the foils that getting better and Yeah. And then, but you do need to have good conditions. It's not like you can go out in super light wind or Yeah. Like in any kind of conditions. That's one thing about standup paddling that I think is it's just more accessible to more people, right? Like pretty much anybody that can standup, paddle, with the right equipment and any, pretty much any kind of water you mean? Standard paddle classic. The, yeah the yeah. For sure. For sure. And for sub foil, for certain mean for, you really need the more knowledge about the ocean. And about the safety. And it's is really the next step, but it's the freedom that you feel. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. No it's an amazing sport. Okay. So then, and then you also, it looks like from your you also got into windsurf foiling a little bit, it looks like. Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't some race? Yeah. This was the racing with that, this was when one year 2020 summer. 2020 to summer 2021. And I was born in Marsai, and then I felt, okay, the Olympic Games will be in Marsai in 2024. I am a windsurf in love. And I really want to try at least to know what it is and to get into it. And I did one year of Olympic training with the French team. It, and then I actually discovered the Olympic world that I just know from far, because the, let's say that the outdoor sports standard pad surfing is now into the Olympics, but windsurfing was really there. There was like one big step between Olympic windsurfing and what windsurfing is for. We are in the industry, but with foiling, it's much more, let's say it's much more similar because. Falling first is really more fun than classic windsurfing that than classic Olympic windsurfing in my point of view. And yeah, it was super interesting and I really got a lot of knowledge about falling, doing Olympic windsurfing training. It was at the end I, I prefer to to focus in one sport and to choose one sport that is sub subdominant fo or windfall as well. I did one year of world Cup in windfall and it's very hard to do everything you really have to choose. But I didn't want to have a regrets and I. I could I think I could do it if I will meet or attract the people, the team that can bring you to the Olympic. But I guess I am, it's not my profile of athletes. I'm, I prefer the freedom, I prefer to go sub subin for and to do the moloca and in, instead of doing the Olympic games. And, but to know it, I really needed to experiment it and to feel it. And to be born on on the city that will host the sailing Olympic games was very elect, and then I really wanted to try it. But you never competed in, in what you did, it looks like you did do some competition right on with the windsurf? Yeah, I did a IQ foil the Olympic windsurf win foiling class. Okay. I did a few competition. I got some pretty nice reason because before I never compete in Olympic format in my life. And I also I got some help from the French team, but I was not the best at athlete, so I was not on the main training group. But I still had some help about how to race and how to go up upward because it's all about how to go, how to read the wind, and how to go up. Wind the wind. And this is a science, this is really a lot of knowledge, a lot of feeling. And a lot of years underwater to know how to do it. And yeah. I still got 20 20 on the iq I international IQ for games. Okay. And everyone told me, yeah, Olivia, you did pretty well because you never compete in racing Olympic before. Like this, yeah. To make the good decision. And you can lose so quickly, many space, like many place like this, you take the wrong decision child your last Yeah. And it's a lot of races. It's 20 races in or sometime more in a few days. Yeah. It's pretty exhausted. Okay. And then and then how did you get into the wing foiling? Like when, when did you start wing foiling and what was your progression in that? Wing foiling, I start in 2000. September, 2019. I was already sub foiling on the waves, and I was thinking it's just about to add the sail when it's wind. And I got the support of tycoon first a French brand. And then in 2020, the, there was the first competition the G the G W V A and I really wanted to go to Haifa. It was at the end of the year during Christmas and New Year. Yeah. December 20. Oh, this is 21. 20, yeah. 21. Oh, no. And then it was 20 maybe. Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. It was, no, I start in September 20 Uhhuh, and then, yeah. This is the first picture with tycoon. Yeah. 2020, sorry. Yeah. I start in 2020 September, and then I compete in December, 2020 in tar. Oh, okay. It was my, my first competition and I knew a bit tour because I went there for windsurfing and for standard paddling before, and I got it was freestyle. It was just, It was freestyle and the race was for fun. And I got served on the face, on the freestyle. My first trip broke during my, the final eat. It was it was a little bit a mess, but experience of competition. That foil looks huge for you. I guess in those days, people were using, I had with I was doing freestyle with 1,600 centimeter square. Oh, wow. But is really big. Yeah. Yeah. Really? The mask didn't like it. Yeah. Wow. Okay. And and then yet 2021, I compete again. Did a few workup in Wingfield. Went to France Switzerland. Brazil and and Spain. That's it, I think. And it was really different from what I knew instead pad because I was from racing. That is really re that was, and I was thinking, wow, we are lucky in Standard Island. And I we really live the same situation that's on the windsurf competition with the wind foil about men and women. But it was at the beginning, it was a new beginning of a new sport managed by Kit surfing kit Surfer. So yeah, it was it was a bit special. It's not easy to talk about it because everything has a beginning. And of course you need to create something and to, and it's super cool for the G V A to organize events. It's a lot of work to do what they do, that they do what they know and they do it how they know how to do it. And with the habits we are, we just, we are just our habits. And then it's true that they reproduce the same thing that they did with the kite surfing competition. And it was really different from what we do in standard paling in term of equality, gender. About the more about the image, about the video and photo production that for women was really a few comparing to men. And then the image is what makes everything, if you don't see any image of women on the water, you think it's a spot for only for men. And then it's the same. It's the same thing. You don't have image of women and it was also a water tour organized by brands that pay, that give the PGE for the G W V A. And these brands have mostly men riders. That they pay and they pay the travel expense to go to the competition, to go to the world tour. And then you have this situation that most of the competitor are men and you are like, hello. It us, the women and some, a few women come from the industry that has maybe 10% of the fleet and a few women come from them, their self, like paying everything the themself. And also many are rider, men, pay, pay, everything themself. But yeah we really try to find a way to give more, like the same amount of visibility to both gender, to attract more. More participants of women into the sport and to make it fair to have the same prize money. Because of course when you have, let's say 80 men competing and five women competing, it's not the same competition. That's completely true. But it's the problem is deeper than that. It comes from actually. But yeah, it was interesting to, to find a solution about this and Is there also hectic sometime when there's a wing full contest and the wind's kind of light do they send out the women's heat because the, it's not windy enough for the men or something like that? Do is it stuff like that too? Or Can be Yeah, can be, but can be. But the most important is to make the effort to make images of the competitor. And this is the most hard, the most hardest thing to do. To really coach to manage your production team to say, okay guys, because the filmmaker and the photograph, they are used also to shoot more performance of men that are impressive than women. And then it's just, that's why I said just the habits. It's not, we don't want women in the sport. It's not this, it's just we do what we used to do that we do it for a long time, and then we just reproduce what we are used to do. And to give image to women, it's it's it's something that's it's not so natural, it's not so it's you have to shake with the people to say, Hey, we are here. Yes. Yeah. So what are you, what are some things that you have been trying to do to help the the status of women in those kind of sports? Like what do you do to try to get rattle the cage a little bit? I have to decrease pleasure to organize the She wins events with venue. This is events dedicated for women to, to learn how to wing foil and to improve the wind foiling technique. And we are doing the first sheet done wings. So we go also on the don winds with the wing for it, with the shoe wings. And it's, so we start last year mostly in France. We did one, one event in Portugal in the beginning of this year, in April. And it's a big success. It's really impressive. The we act we gonna do one event this Sunday in France. And we are 20, we are 25 women in total. And the registration we're full in less than 24 hour. So I'm super, super happy and it's all about finding a way like to like to organize events, like to grow the logistic of the event, to welcome more women on the event because we are really had to stop the registration of the girls. And and then the idea is to produce major content to, for the social media and to do this kind of to help doing this and to inspire to give, to, to produce a positive image for women windfall and to show that it's super cool to win for when you are a woman. Yeah. No, that's great. And Wing foiling is really not so much about strength, but it's more about finesse and technique, so it's not Yeah, absolutely. Very strong. It seems like we, we see there's a pretty good amount of women getting into wing foiling too now, which is, it's good. It's cool to see that. But it did, it does seem especially in the media, it's definitely male do male dominated sports still right now. Okay. Yeah, it's let's talk a little bit about this this summer. So you, I know you signed up for the moca Tohu race and you're doing it as on wing foiling, right? So on sub Oh, you're doing on sub foil. Oh, okay. I thought you were wing foil. Ok. On foiling and also the Maui to Molokai race, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm super excited. Yeah. So talk a little bit about that. What kind of equipment are you planning to use and and the Strat your strategy and your training and stuff like that for those races this summer the equipment I am going to use is the axis done in the board. I have 1, 6 11 by 19 inch. And it's a 90 liter, it's a custom board. That axis made for me, it's a bump. I really love this board. It really make a big difference. It's this one. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, I did my first takeoff on the flat water with this board and the Foil Art Pro 12 0 1. What, which is pretty big. I don't think I'm gonna use this for the moca only If it's very light wind. I gonna use a smaller size that I have for now that is not on the projection yet, but will be soon. So it's a little surprise about the front wing and, but I use a, I'm good on a versatile foil. I like to, I for now, I don't use a very small foil. I use a 1000 centimeter square. And because I am, I like to take off in an easily. And to be able to do mistake and don't lose the flight. And I play more, let's say I, I like to go fast. I have one medium average of 23 kilometer per hour, which is pretty nice. On this I did it on 30 kilometer or something like that. So it's pretty, pretty long. And yeah, instead of going with a very small foil and if you lose the flight, it's another story and another story. And and I train mostly in Portugal where I live, where I have sometime nice condition for now. I don't have much wind and much wave so I train differently. But when it's and. Windy is just a paradise to train. It's really tir tiring every day. So much opportunity to push the limit. Yeah. And then the mo chi race, it's basically sometimes the start, at the start it can be pretty light wind and not very good bumps. And then of course, also the finish is like upwind, like you're going into the wind in monologue bay in Hawaii, Kai. And so you, for tho for that, the beginning at the end, you want a big bigger foil that's easier to stay up on, foil on. But then in the middle of the race you have sometimes huge bumps and very fast speeds, right? So it's hard to have a setup that can handle both, so yeah, that's why this year for my first time I will go with with a 1000 some semester square. And then I can take off almost on the flat. And I actually, my wing is in my front. This foot is in France getting prepared by a guy that will prepare the fo and make, because after one year there are some things. Oh, scratches proper. Like he make it perfect. Yeah. And I can't push this forward until my maximum speed was 42 kilometer k a kilometer per hour. And in, how much is that in, in miles per hour? I'm just trying to think. 40. It's fast. Yeah, it's very fast. Yeah. And then after that I just fell because it was like one big bumps and then a second, big bumps. And then the third, I was like, wow, I count more 42 kilometer per hour. I don't know how much it in Yeah, it's like about, I think, is it 2.2? I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, that's pretty, that's really fast. I, and then my my, my strategy will be if it's too big, I just find the line that allow me to fly as fast as I can. And actually I just I go there because I, of course I will do it. I will give it all, and I will try to win and everything. But it's all also about to be part of the race and to be part of the history of the sport, and to share it with many new, and to be there, it's just amazing. I, I have the experience that less expectation you have, like when you have a, when you're on the good flow and on the lightness better you are. So I don't push, I don't put me so much pressure of results. Of course I go there to do my best, but it's more about the experience and to enjoy it at the top. So who do you think is your biggest competition and the women's dwin. Foiling? Who, who do you think is gonna the, like the favorite? I think it's always everybody. Yeah. Cause you don't know. It's a new sport and you don't know, and you can have black horses. And everyone is able to make surprises for, of course Annie is very strong and we know that she's from Hawaii and she know very well the race and the spots and and she will be back after the her shoulder problems. And and yeah, I guess our main competitor is ourself. Like always. It's you push yourself and you go for it. And this is one opportunity to go over the comfort zone and to push. To pressure our limits. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you are in the middle of nowhere. We will be, I guess with the escort boat. Maybe we don't know who is where, because we have different line or I don't know if we can really be close to each other, and it's pretty long I in, in filing less because to be two hour and a half, three hour of flight. But before, in like when you race in the classics race, it's four hour something. So it's not the, you have time to it's enough time for things to happen. Yeah so you never know. See in the mo areas, the finish, like everything can change. Yeah. Cuz if you get a nice wave or something and you versus having to paddle for the last mile almost, or whatever, so that's can be that can make a big difference too, I think, to finish. But yeah, the China War, yeah, that's big challenge. Challenge I think. But yeah, I think this year there's actually, I think there's more people on foils than on standup paddle boards, maybe in the moca race. I have to Oh yeah. Check it. Yeah. But there's a pretty big it's pretty, the pretty big group of That's cool. Of foyers. Yeah. So it's really and it's really the first time the race has held since the beginning of Covid, since 2019, it'll be interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah. It should be a big race of the race. Because back then, yeah, like in 2019 it was, foiling was still pretty new and it's a lot of things have changed since then, really, I think it's really exciting to see and then wing foiling for the first time too. In the race. Yeah. And then so what are your plans after that? Are you gonna focus focus on down wind, standup foiling, or what are your plans? Are you still gonna do standup racing or wing foiling, or what are your plans? My plans after the moloca? After this summer? Yes. I have the project, it would be maybe before or after the moloca, depending on the wind conditions. I want to set record in Portugal of Subin foil. I, so it's really, nobody knows about this for now. You are the first one to be aware of that. Oh, cool. Except my sponsor, I will start from Panish in Portugal and I will go to where I am able to go with the North wind. Okay. It means that I have a distance of two, two hundred and seventy five kilometer to cigarettes until c guess this is the point the point of the southwest of Portia. And it's about if I flight in my average speed, which is a 23 kilometer per hour, what I do in in a 60 k. I can fly, I can do it in one day of summer, of European summer, which is a 15 hour of flight. It's it's about 12, 12 hour and a half of fo of, and we have 15 hour of flight in from, so basically it's from 6:00 AM to eight to 6:00 PM six 7:00 PM wow. And nuclear. So if you complete that, it's longer than James. James Casey's one day record. I think he did it a hundred miles or something like that. So 275 kilometers would be more than that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a great experience. It's it's the adventure and with foiling today, with the new boards and the new foils, every single very fast, the improvement of the gear of the gear make everything much more like really go break the boundaries, go over the what we do. Last year the one, one year after with the new year, it's nothing about, it's we are reliving one, one time of the sport that is incredible, yeah. Yeah. Things are changing very quickly and improving. And I do it for association, Portuguese association that protect the nature. That actually like at this moment, Portuguese is very suffering from lux tourism with many golf on the gyms, on the nature parks that are just it's not just one or two golf, it's maybe six or more golf in a very smaller area in almost on the beach, let's say, where there is not much water. And then the intensive agriculture and then other project that, I mean that Portugal is really leaving an expansion, like at this moment with the, after the covid. Many people want to go and live there, and then it's an opportunity for the politics to have a opportunity in the other businesses. And then the respect of the nature is a bit forgotten in this story. Then I was think I'm seeking to do this for, to support association that, that try to share the good message that try to find the balance between development and respect of the nature and what we can do to find the right way to, to evolve and to make business, let's say. Because it's all about money. And yeah. So we are gonna do a documentary about this. We're gonna show you guys how beautiful is Portugal, how beautiful is the culture that you are already, and what is happening right now in the coast and in land and and to get support. To reach money for the people that need to like to stop legally. Some people that don't respect the law. Yeah. Basically overdevelop the story. Yeah. So you're raising funds, you're raising funds for a nonprofit. That's cool. Awesome. Yeah. Cause I love Portugal so much. So how long have you been living in Portugal now? How many years have you been living there? Five years. Okay. So you, your mother tongue is French and then you speak Portuguese and English. What do you speak any other languages? Frank Frankish. I speak French and Portuguese. French. Yeah. No, but I speak enough for the people to understand what I want to say. Yeah. And then I speak a bit of Spanish too. French, Spanish and Portuguese. When you know a bit how to speak it's easy. And when you have friends, when you live in the country, if you make the effort, it's okay. You can. Yeah. For me, it don't make sense to live in a country and don't speak the language. So it was not easy, but at the end I speak a bit of Portuguese. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Let's talk a little bit about wing foiling. So are you gonna keep competing as a wing foiler? And what, and I just wanted to ask you too about your wings, the value wings and so on. So you wanna talk a little bit about your Yeah I will keep competing in wing fighting. I, I love to do don windows and we have one race in France, the cardinal wing foil event in September that is don't win races in wing foiling. So I have this races on my calendar. And I hope for new don't win wing for race to. To, yeah, to appear and and to be able to compete in the format. Okay. Yeah. This is why you so nice. So you're you, I love it. Yeah. Talk a little bit about the wings. Like what wings do you use and what do you like about the, these wings and so on? So these wings on the screen is the wing v2. Now I use the V3 for, and like when it's flat and on the wave, I use the aura and I will soon I will use the Aura X. This is the aula? Yeah. This one, this beauty, I will use the Aura X the new best wing of value that is really rigid and. And very nice on the wave and also on the racing. Apparently I did I did one race beginning of April in north of France, and it was very fun. And yeah I still compete on on the fun event of foing and I, and man, I really prefer to compete in, in the Darwin for the Moloca. I do it on the sub, but I have the feeling that more and more races will be Darwin also not only racing or office type. For for downwind foiling or standup foiling or wing foiling, are you talking about now? Wing wing foiling. Special events made for wing foiling. Do, yeah. That's what I really like. Yeah. So what kind of equipment do you use for downwind wing foiling? I use the, so the wing depend on the wing on the wind. I use the aura by your wing. And then I, for the body, it also depend on the wind, but I mostly use the Axis 55 liter with the 90 centimeter ma iModules carbon mast. For the sage, I used the ultra short, which is 64 centimeter long. And for the front wing, I used to use the art, the a r t. And now I gotta use the a R T Pro in different size. And for the rear wing, I used the progressive the 300 Progressive. I still didn't try the skinny rear, but it looks super cool. Need to train more on that to make my choice. But you have to, I've been using the A R T wings access a r t. So what's the difference between a r t and a R T pro? Like how are they different? How do they handle differently and so on? For now, for the, for what I tried with the 12 0 1, it's really about like the 12 0 1. It's much bigger and much I I expect it's 11. Ratio. So it's really more, oh longer. So you take of more easy with this thing, but it's always the same goal. It's to, I have better lift and go faster, it's this balance and the uproar is the next level. It's, you have a better lift. So it means that you can take off more easily. And when you make mistake and you are about to lose the flight the force still keep you up. And then when you push and you go fast, the foil accept to go fast and to to be in control and to, it's and this is the main goal. For the, for for the foiling development. But the apple is really made for done winding. That's why the lift for downwind is super important because if you don't fly, you don't do any downwind. Is it, what about the thickness of the profile? Is it about the same as the a r t or do you know the 12 0 1 is a bit more thicker on the front, and it's it's like the a r t, the last like the last version it's more like flat, let's say. And the A R T pro is more like how to say that in English? I don't know. But it's I think it's a little bit thicker on the front. And then less on the the evacuation of the water is from the center, it like this. Yeah. And then just higher aspect I guess, too. Yeah. So are are they planning to come out with more sizes in the a r T Pro, do you know? Or like what's, have you been able to test? Yeah. I'm gonna receive a smaller size. I just received one text message this morning from telling me that she gonna sh ship new sizes. So I can't tell you yet, but yeah, we're gonna have a I can tell you the exact size. Sure. But we gonna have a smaller size. Yeah. And then which is really cool for me cause the 12 0 1 for me is really big for my weight. So in, in the MOK race, if it, if the conditions are good, you might use something a little bit smaller probably, but Absolutely. But that seems probably the a R T pro kind of same style foil. Oh yeah. Yeah. Cool. And then what about the boards? Talk a little bit about the the dwin fo wing standup foil boards. I guess a r t makes makes them is your, is yours a standard standard production model? Or is this one, one of your I have this shape, the done wind. Yeah. But in 11. It's made for my weight. The 100 liter will be a bit big for me. So they just built a smaller border adapted, and also it's, yeah, it's 19 wa I'm also on a 19 inch wipe. Yeah, I've heard the, it works really well, right? Even for just catching waves easily and things like that. Do you ever use it for other, for in the surf or only for down wind? For now, I didn't use it on the surf because unfortunately we, it's flat for a few days and I used the Eid, now I used the e, the six O on the wave, but it was also super small. It was like really ankle high. And super nice. Like the dun wind is really made for the dun wind and for surfing I use the hybrid, but I guess the dun wind can be also nice for for small waves. So yeah, I use the 90 liter, the six O. Is that what, and then for what do you use for wing foiling? Is that the same board you use for wing foiling or for wing foiling? I use the, both the 85 liter. But if, let's say if I will be a client, I will use the ebra also in wing foiling. Cause that's true that I think so many boards that I am I'm so lucky to be a pro athlete and to have a, as much girl as I need. But I used the froth carbon fo board a five liter. Okay. When it's light, when it's very light in Portugal. Otherwise I use the 55 liter when it's windy. This port is I order it for sapping. And then I discovered that it was pretty nice when it was windy, but not enough to have a small board. And when it's when there is some current and big waves, you don't want to get watch and you want to go away very fast. So this board is very nice to take off easily and go away. So let's, and they're quite so compared, they're quite wide compared to the hybrid or the Oh, especially the dominant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. But then it's really maneuverable because it's a very short, yeah. Short and Stuy five. It's a five. Oh. So yeah. Pretty nice on the surf. Cool. Yeah. This is my sub foil for the waves. And don't mean for the Yeah I'm super happy with the new board, the new sub. That's really amazing to, to see sub boards in the foiling industry, like official shapes for the first time. Yeah. When you're a pad, it's yes. And it's, it seems to be a fast growing thing right now too. I was just at a factory where they were making foil boards and almost everything in production right now it was all dom wind foil boards. A lot of companies are coming out with them and. So we'll see. And but yeah, it is such a challenging sport and I think it's, it is very much of a niche sport, so we'll see how widely it gets adopted, cuz I think it's just for a lot of people it's just not something they can do every day, but we'll see. Yeah, I mean it's for sure it's a niche but the equipment make it much more accessible and it's also about many people did wing foiling and then what next? Yeah. Have many friends, they're like, yeah, we wing foil on the, when it's flat and when you did a 360 and jump and, when you really know how to wing foil, you're like, okay, then what I do now. Yeah. And there are many people able to sub win foil. Yeah. That do. Yeah, no, for sure. Do wing. Yeah. And it's a cool challenge. I've been, I I was down with standup foiling before I got into wing foiling, and then once the wings came out, and then I was like, oh, this is so much easier, and so then I got really into wing foiling, and then lately I've been trying to get back into downward foiling, but then I remembered how hard it is, yeah, it's definitely not that easy to get going and then stay up on foil and stuff like that, so it's a challenge. But yeah. So do you I was gonna ask are you regular foot or goofy foot, like not your natural stance. Regular. Regular. And then when you're wing foiling, do you switch your feet or do you stay in the same position? You switch? I switch, yeah. Staying to to windsurfing, I'm used to switch. So if if Wing Foing becomes an Olympic sport, do you think you would compete in, in Wing for Olympic racing? I don't think so. No. I don't know that I, I don't, yeah I really prefer, and it's also about my, the timing in my life that I live in Portugal, I bought my home. I'm, I am doing a lot of gardening. I am completely fun of of taking care of the nature, of the land, of the plants. And this take a lot of time. It's my weight. It's one kind of therapy and anyway, it's something that I really love to do. And when I, like when you are Olympic athlete, you just do it, you don't do anything else. And this, I did it when I was 22, 27 years old. And I did stop for, I did stand up race racing twice a day, three, three times a week gym. And I got World Champion three times. And I'm like, yeah, so cool. But I know what is it to be professional at athlete Olympic? It's crazy. And and I also discovered the sailing community and the, like how it is to compete in sailing. And I prefer to be a free rider. A don't mean foer, yeah, because it gives you more, more freedom and it's more expression than just it's not just like a and I also want to go into the big wave. I want to go to NRA with the, before this winter, I want to experiment. I want to do crazy challenge. And I, and since always I am more free people. And when you do the Olympic, it's not you don't decide so much. You train a lot. You have a team around you and then, it's another way of life. And I'm aware that I am living in Portugal. I'm good here. And yeah. But it's really amazing if we finally go to the Olympics. And it'll go for sure. Yeah. I think so too. I think that's, it is just a matter of time. Such a, such a cool thing. But and you go to the Olympic? No, I'm 55, so I'm over the hill, but I still enjoy it though, and I like to go faster than young guys, so if I can Yeah. It's so competitive. Yeah. But yeah, I'm actually like the course racing I'm not that interested in it really, because Yeah, it's it depends so much on the conditions and the equipment and so technical, so definitely more fun to just go out in the waves and have fun and all that kind of stuff. But let's talk a little bit about the state of mind. Like you're talking about, like a little bit about like how sometimes it's better to not be. Or just to let your mind wander a little bit or just have like more of that not be too, sometimes if you're trying too hard, it's like it doesn't work, right? Like you have to go with the flow and then let it happen. And then when that, but talk a little bit. How do you get into the right frame of mind to get to do your water sports? What comes natural to you? Do you have any tips on how to get into the right state of mind, to where everything flows and comes naturally? I have the flow that we call the flow in psychology. It's when you are really on the moment. This is the hardest thing to do. It's really simple, but it's really hard at the same time because when you are competing or when you are pushing yourself, you are really focused on the result. And when you are focused on the result, you are no more focused on what you are doing. Because, and then, and I, when I was com, like since I was competing in, in, in suppressing, I was, and also I think it's very important to, to train the mind to be here now. It's sometime you are thinking about so many stuff, what I will do tomorrow, what I will do next month, what I will do December in Hawaii, and what I did before. But if you are not here now, you won't be here after. When I will be in Hawaii, maybe I won't be there. I will be thinking about what I will do in a month when I go back to Europe, so if I really try to focus to be here. And then of course, it's very important to, to plan and to be organized and this kind of stuff. But the experience I had recently, I, my garing watch was not working anymore, and then I to, to my speed and my distance, I put I put it on my phone on Strava. Then I put my phone in my pocket, then I did my don window, put out my phone sometime calling the friend on, but my phone was mostly on my pocket. And then I arrived there. I cut the Strava off. I stop the time I go to the parking and I check and I reached p is pretty good and the condition was not that Yeah. Was okay. Then I got this beautiful Garin watch, and then I was the condition were super good and I was feeling, I had the good speed and I was sure that my average speed was much better, but I was always watching the speed wow, 40 kilometer hour. Nice. No. Then I, when I finished my average speed was not that better because maybe because I was not really focused on the ocean and on the, on what I, on, on what I was doing. I was just checking the number distracted. Yeah. And. And this is very interesting. And also the experience I had was doing apna. I did one one camp of Apna in south of France. And it was my first experience doing APNA. So I was very beginner. I went with this guy that was word champion Stefan mi apnea is breath breath holding, right? Holding your breath or diving deep or like what? Yeah. Yeah. He is word champion of static apnea. And he is 11 minute, 50 seconds. 11 minutes in the water without laughing crazy. And the guy super amber teaching us how to do. And I really discovered doing apna, which is super simple as well, you just have to relax and to be focused on yourself and to don't think about anything else. And I really realized how it costs you to just watch how many minutes you are under the water or to be like in little tiny stress how you can be like, whoa. And then after a few times I did three, two or three days of up now with this guy. Then I went and the water to did a 17 meter for the first time was pretty nice. Then stay a bit down there and you have your distress to, to think, okay, I have to go up now I have to be able to, to reach the surface, face and breathe and to. Completely relaxed and to be it's incredible. It's incredible how you ma how you, how much your mind has an impact on yourself and how much the stress can kill you. You when you are you, the stress costs a lot of energy. So of course the stress is important to, to be awake and to push us. But it's really a balance between when you are doing your race, nothing else exists and you are so lucky to be here. Yeah. You are so fucking lucky to like to be her wife, for example, with many cool people around you. And just leave this moment. Just enjoy it and do your best and you come do better than your best anywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I think for the, especially the, for standup paddling, the, I've done the Moloka race like 10 times and it's such a mental thing, if you're not in the right state of mind, it's, it can be a very difficult race to, to do it, yeah. Because hard to stay, always stay positive the whole way across. When you stand up paddling it for five hours or six hours, it's uhhuh. Yeah. It's definitely a challenge. So I'm curious how so in the, how long can you hold your breath? Like how long can you stay underwater? No, I was very beginner. I did two minutes. Okay. It was really, I was very starting and I, it was my only training, but I want to train more for the next winter. Have you tried the Wim Hof breathing? Swim breathing. I know. Yeah, I know what it is. I did a very few times, but it's super interesting. Yeah, I do that like regularly in the morning, like after I get up, I just do the breathing exercise and breath hold exercises. And it's, yeah it's good for the mind, or just also just I think when you do something that's difficult or challenging, like for when I do it first thing in the morning, then the rest of the day is easy after that. So you do a couple hard things in the morning and then after that everything's pretty easy. So Uhhuh absolutely, it's it's really short, but it's, it has a big effect. Yeah. A way off. Okay. So do you have I think we've had a pretty long interview, but do you have anything you wanna share with the foiling world? And any message, you already talked about Getting more women into the sport and stuff like that. But do you wanna, do you have any other messages you wanna put out there? It's it's very large thing, but yeah I guess that the ocean and the nature in general, it's it's so amazing and that as many people we can bring into it, it's like it's our therapy. It's it's our it's our way of life. But I would like to say that it's for me, it's my to say that in English, it's my, what I live for. And sometime I'm thinking about the people that don't have the opportunity to experiment it, to get in contact with the water and with the, with this element. And like to put it more and more popular and accessible. It's it's so cool and I am super happy to help the industry to promote and to show what is possible and to share it with as many people as possible. That when I will be on the moloca, I will think about my friend Sonny, that you know, that he is leaving a very hard time at the moment about the mind health. And we, it's really important to take care of us, thanks to the ocean, because the ocean can accept, can take so many thing. It's not only about the physical health. It's also about the mental health and and yeah, it's I feel so grateful for it to be in contact with this element and yeah, for sure. I can talk about it for another hour. The Me Too. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really, it's a luck and it's not a luck because we went volun, like we went into it, so we make it happen. And sometimes the ocean is very hard with us as well. It's not always fun that it's so much, it's so much learning and so much so much happiness. Yeah. Yeah. And you're right about the ocean is, it's, it always humbles you if you're, if you If you feel like invincible sometimes, then at some point you get the Yeah, you stay very humble. Yeah. You stay back in your place, so yeah, it's a good teacher for sure. Yeah. All right. Great. Yeah, so I'm, I was just thinking like what is something that we can all do to, like to protect the environment to, to be better, shepherds of the world, of the earth, you're talking about, like your, f raising funds for nonprofit to protect the protect the ocean or protect the land from overdevelopment and so on. But like being in the surfing industry, like it's not exactly like. The products we use are environmentally friendly and traveling all over the world on jet planes is not really environmentally friendly. That's, but but by going in the ocean, we, it is like the way, yeah. The way I justify it is a way to feel closer to it and wanting to protect it. Like we are the ocean protectors cuz we love the ocean. But what are some things that you do? What are some things that other people can do to be better shepherds of the earth, yeah. What I think it's all about daily leads thing. That we do every day about saving the water and being careful with the plastic that we bought, and all of these things that most of us know. But I am, we can discover that there is a long way to, to share this message to many people that are not aware about this or don't imagine the impact that we can have us little citizen and then for sure to get into the action, to influence the bigger industry that sometimes take a terrible decision like the deep meaning on the ocean. All this projects that is About to ha to happen in your in Europe. That is pretty not nice for the ocean and for the nature. And yeah, like I, I also study it's nothing about but it's I also study Chinese medicine and in Chinese medicine they say that little, a little action sometime can have a big effect. It means when you see Kiy taking a plastic bottle on the beach, which is not something that's it's just normal, the people that will watch him will be like, wow, this is Kailin doing it. So sometime you can have just little action that can have a big influence into other people and. And I think it's it's important to take it in consideration and to, to just act as best as we can. And but for sure it's a very complex complex story for all of us human that we love the comfort, we love the, we love to travel to Hawaii. We stand up at our board and we, everyone in our level, we are responsible. But I guess it's very hard to be perfect. Some of us maybe are, but the most important is to do our best and to keep improving and to think about the solution. Like some like finding maybe new. Type of construction or like most of the branded in the industry to remove the plastic and the packing and the packaging of the board. This is a huge like this is really good. To do. To do it. Yeah. Then when I do Don Window, I really go, I don't go with the boat because I'm not used to it, but, this little thing that can, by the way, I'm looking for a boat escort in, in M two. Okay. But I would love to do the M two without the boat with the foil. I guess It's okay. It's just a two or three hour of foiling, but it's Yeah. The mo moca you can do without a boat, but the mo Molokai tohu ha they require escort boat. You can'

Aloha friends,  it's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show. Today's interview is with none other than Jimmy Lewis, who is a legendary shaper. He got started at a young age shaping surfboards and then moved to Maui where he got into making windsurf boards. And at one point he was making windsurf speed needles for some of the fastest world record breaking sailors in the world at speed sailing events. And then he got into kite surfing and kite boards, and then standup paddle boards, and now foil boards. So he's a very versatile shaper. Some great stories to tell, and really interesting interview and entertaining as well. So you'll learn more about his design philosophy, board construction, and lots of good stories. So it's a longer interview, so take your time, re kick back and relax. Watch it here on YouTube with some visuals, or you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app. So without it further ado, here is Jimmy.  Okay, Jimmy Lewis, it's a real honor to have you on the show. Thanks so much for making the time to talk to me and the guests. So I'm just stoked to be able to talk to you for extended period of time and ask you all the questions I have. And so yeah, thank you for coming to the show. Oh, I'm happy to be here finally. I've seen the other ones. I go, why doesn't he call me? I appreciate that. Thanks. So yeah, so we'll get into all this stuff that's currently going on, at eventually I want to talk about your board shapes and your foil boards and equipment and all that kind of stuff. But I, first of all, I wanna start with just going into some background, I know you have a long history in the sports of water sports Tell us a little bit about, start at the very beginning, like how you grew up, where, where were you born, how did you grow up and how did you get into water sports and how did you start shaping boards and all that stuff. Yeah. My dad was in the Air Force, so I was born in Canada, I think after World War ii. My mom and my dad moved around a lot. My dad met my mom after World War ii. My mom's brother was a Air Force buddy of his, and they he brought my dad over to their house after the war. And then he met my mom, and I guess we moved around. They moved around quite a few years. Eventually we moved to Redlands, California. I believe it was in 1956. So I was I was born in 51, so that would make me five years old. And went into kindergarten there, went to grade school and stuff. And then in I don't know if you're old enough to remember the sixties, but that's when the surfing craze really was going crazy in the early sixties and we lived inland. But my older brother, I have two older brothers, two years apart. So my older brother I think was, if I was like 11 or 12, he was 15 or 16. And he he had a transistor radio that my dad had brought back from Germany. And I remember listening to all the rock music and the surf music on the radio coming outta his room. And he started getting interested in surfing and so he bought a surfboard. And so naturally me and my other brother wanted to do what he did. So we all started surfing and I think I bought my first surfboard. It was a pop out vessy and it was like a pig board, that vessie pig shape. And started surfing, I think. In the summer of my sixth grade, and I remember my mom took us down, took me and a friend of mine, just us two, down to Cardiff, which was quite a ways from, we, like Newport Beach was 60 miles in away. Redlands was like 60 miles directly inland from Newport. And anyway, when we really started getting into surfing a lot, we would drive down to Cardiff, but I don't know why my mom brought us down to Cardiff that day. Me and a friend of mine, Hanson Surfboards, was across the street, not directly from Carter Reef, but just a little south of that. There was a restaurant on the beach there called Sea Barn. It was like a little old diner of those sixties type diners Okay. Where all the surfers would go in there and eat sometimes. And there was a, they called that beach break right across, right out from sea Barn, right across the street from there was Hanon Surfboards the shop. And me and my friend went and snooping around behind there. And there was this sha, this little shack, I think it was just a single standing shape room. But we went in there and this guy, John Price was in there. He was later on to own Surfboards Hawaii. He bought the franchise from Dick Brewer on in the Man On in California. But he was in there shaping. And I had forgotten. But this friend of mine from Redlands, who was at the beach with me that day, reminded me about a year or two ago that I had gotten a couple pieces of the rail cutoffs. And that's, I took 'em home and made two little surfboards. I think they were about a foot long. I shaped some longboards, glassed 'em, I can't remember where I even got the glass and resin, but I shaped them, glassed them, got some logos out of the magazine. I remember one was at Jacobs and one was at Dewey Weber. And I glassed them for boards. And I remember bringing 'em to school and showing people. And then this other friend of mine was so impressed. So just like small model shapes, model pieces threw away from, okay. Yeah. I remember this friend of mine was so impressed with one of 'em. I just gave it to 'em. I don't know why I did that. I wish I still had one of those, or both of 'em. But I think that's been a thing all my life. I like to give stuff away to people that like it, especially something I've made. Anyway, that's how I started surfing. And then we would, I remember my mom used to give us 50 cents a day for lunch to buy the lunch at school. And the guys that went surfing who had cars, I was still like 13, 14, and 15 years old in those junior high and high school years. Fortunately I was for some reason, guys that are 16 and 17 don't want to hang around with 13 and 14 year old kids, and but I was able to go with those guys surfing and we had to pay gas money to get down to the beach with these guys that had cars. So I'd save my 50 cents all week long to have $2 and 50 cents for the weekend to go surfing. And I'd starve at school for all week long, not having lunch. And then would go to the beach, pay a dollar 50 for gas, and then I'd have another dollar or a dollar 50 depending on who charged what for a bag of Dale Donuts from Speedy Mart, which was like a precursor to seven-eleven. Down in Cardiff and then whatever else food we'd get and would just, all I cared about was surfing. I didn't do very well in school. I didn't fail, but I got like seas, but I was naturally good at math, algebra, and geometry, so I didn't, that was, I hated reading. I hated reading history. I hated reading any of that stuff. Just couldn't concentrate. I'd read it, I'd re, when I'd be doing my homework, I'd be reading a paragraph over and over again thinking about surfing or something. And finally I just put the book away how I even passed. I can't, I don't remember how I could do that because I didn't really study. And like I said, na, the math stuff was semi-natural, so I got pretty good grades in algebra, geometry, math, stuff like that. And then my mom moved to Berkeley in 67. She wanted, she was working at the library in Redlands and then she wanted to become a librarian, so she needed to go to the university, moved up to Berkeley. And I remember my older brother was already in college and my other brother just graduated in 67, so it was just me and my mom and my sister. And I was thinking, shoot up in San Francisco area, there's icebergs in the water up there. I just had this impression. It's it's so cold. What a pi. I just hated moving up there because that was the end of my surfing career, and then once I got up there, after a little while, I think my oldest brother came and visited and we decided to drive down to Santa Cruz and Reali and found that it wasn't as cold as we thought and it was doable. And then I made a couple surfers there and we started going over to Belinas, which is north of the Golden Gate Bridge. And surfing over there. And then one day, it was probably in the late, it was like late 68 maybe. And we went to Belinas and I saw this homemade surfboard. And this is the time when short boards first started being made. And there were, there weren't, it wasn't longboard surfing anymore. Nat Young and Dick Brewer were making short boards, the first short boards in the late sixties there. And I saw this homemade surfboard there that this guy made on the beach. And I go, shoot, I could do that. And so I drove down to Santa Cruz to the O'Neill shop. They used to make surfboards, they, they had a surfboard brand as well as their wetsuit thing. And I bought a blank, a gallon of residence, some glass, and came back and turned one of the rooms in our apartment into the shaping room and shaped that board. And then out on the out on the, what do you call it? The roof of the house. I started glassing boards up there, and that's how I started making boards. And then we chopped down all our old classic long, long boards, stripped them, and I reshaped those and then started making boards. Okay. So that was like late sixties or early 1968 was the first full size board I made. Okay. I actually forgot to mention that when I got into seventh grade, I wanted to make a belly board, which is like a boogie board, but we used to call them belly boards and it was shaped like a surfboard, uhhuh, and a longboard. And so when I got into seventh grade wood shop, I told the teacher I wanted to, you could make, they give you assignments of what you have to make to teach you how to work with wood. But I had I wanted to make this belly board. It was four feet long, glued up, shaped with rocker and stuff, and. He said that's way too big of a project for a seventh grader. So for the, I had to wait till ninth grade. So the next two years, all I thought about was making that belly board. So when I got into ninth grade wood shop, I did it. I bought some balsa wood from the hot, we called 'em hobby shops back then with model airplanes and stuff. But they had these pieces of balsa wood that were three feet long. And I think I bought two of em and then glued on cuz they weren't long enough. I wanted it to be four feet long. So they were, I remember having to, to but 'em end on end to make it long enough. And I couldn't afford to buy all four pieces to make it wide enough. So the rails were solid pine. So the thing weighed a lot. But the, I remember the two pieces of wood that I bought were eight bucks, which was a fortune back then for me. And so that's why I couldn't make the whole thing balsa. And I shaped it and my plan was to take, and back then it was like we'd have wood shop Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and the next week it was Tuesday and Wednesday. And so I made the board and I got it done shaped just before Christmas vacation. Back then we had two weeks off for Christmas vacation. My plan was to take it home, last it, and take it to the beach to ride over Christmas vacation. And the shop teacher said, oh, I want you to glass it. I want you to do it here and show the kids how you do that. And I go, this ain't a glass shop, it's a wood shop. And if I do it, if I had to wait till after Christmas, it would take two months to do it Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and then Tuesday and Thursday. And it's I was so pissed, and so what I did on the very last day before the Christmas vacation on Friday, I stuck it behind the shop door, leaning up behind the shop door. And then as I got outta school, I just went and grabbed it and took it home. The lead teacher was pissed. He failed me for that quarter. So I had an for the first quarter f for the next quarter. So my the semester grade was a c the average. And he was pissed, but that's what I did. So anyway, I glassed that and then it wasn't until I saw that board in Bess that I wanted to make real surfboards. Okay. And then other than your shop teacher which shop teacher, did you have any, anybody like showing you, like mentoring you or did you talk to any other shapers or watch anybody else? I didn't know what a shaper was. Yeah. Except that first experience when I was in summer of sixth grade looking at John Price and that shaping room. And then you just shaped it with like a surf form rasp or did you have a power cleaner or the blank? The first surfboard I made. Yeah. Yeah. It was they got, the surf forms are the 10 inch surf forms. Yeah. I don't know if they have a seven inch one, a small one, or six or seven inch one. Shaped the first 17 boards with that small surf form. Oh, wow. Big one existed. And I certainly didn't know what a planer was, I don't think, or had access to one. And have you ever tried to skin a blank with a Sure. Formm, the crust on the blank? I, yeah. I actually, the first board I shaped was the same way. I didn't have a planer or anything. I had to do it all by hand. But yeah it's very hard to get that the skin off right now. Yeah, it was, that was a nightmare. But for some reason though, I remember the boards. I've got one of my old board. One of the first surfboards I made down in my shop, this friend of mine from Berkeley Yeah. Told me he had it several years ago. And so I said send it to me and I'll send your son a new surfboard that I shaped him. But yeah, they're pretty clean, nice. Yeah. So that's how I started. I wasn't a very good Glasser until I saw somebody do it or shaping. I came to Hawaii in 69 right after high school. This friend, my brother had already moved to Maui in 68, I believe. So at, I graduated in 69 and a friend of mine got a job painting a friend of his family's house over the summer. So me and him painted that house to earn money to come to Hawaii. So we came to Maui in, in the fall of 69. And there was this sh guy that had a little shape and room in PA down here. And I was gonna shape a board and so he had a planer. And so I got the blank and I had no idea how to do, to walk around the board shaping it like you're mowing a lawn, right? I was making crazy s cuts down the middle of the blank and I did a few cuts and then I go, Jesus Christ, this is terrible. And then I asked him, Hey, can you come and show me how to, how you hold the plane or, so he did a few passes and I didn't really get it. And after I, I mean it used to take me like the 17 boards I had done with the Sure Form, it would take me a week to shape those cuz I would do a little bit every day after school or something. And you've shaped a board with the Sure. Form yourself so you know how long it takes. And doing it with this planner, I was done in a couple hours and I just felt. I'm never gonna learn this. This is terrible. I just was depressed and, what's it called? Dis disen, non en disenchanted, but what's the word? Yeah, discouraged. I just felt discouraged of ever learning to shape. But then I got a planner anyway I only stayed in Santa Cruz, sorry, Maui for three months cuz it was the first time I was away from home and it wasn't as easy living in Hawaii as I thought. I just imagine. Yeah, I'd find a house, a really cool house right near the beach or something for $50 a month and it wasn't like that, and so anyway, I moved back to Berkeley, stayed at my mom's house for a couple months, I think I shaped a surfboard there and then moved to Santa Cruz and I lived in Santa Cruz for a year. And in the house we lived in, there was this guy that had this back bedroom when he moved out, I turned that bedroom into a sh a shaping room, and then I was glassing up on the front porch. And I O'Neill, like I said, they had a shop where they made boards too, and they also had a showroom there. And so they had, they were gonna stop their making surfboards. They were gonna close down their shop. So I went over there and Mike O'Neill, who's Pat's brother, had this box with a planter in a bunch of pieces and he sold it to me for 10 bucks. So I hitchhiked up to San Francisco to the Skill factory and gave it to him and told 'em, put it together and fix it. So for 75 bucks, they put it all together and made it almost like brand new. And so now I had a planner for 85 bucks basically. And then I started shaping and learning how to use it, but my glassing wasn't very good. Every, the thing is I've gotten good at glassing because every board I shaped, I glance. So I'm just as good at glassing as I am at shaping still to this day. You glassed all the boards yourself? There's been long periods where I didn't glass 'em all right. But now I do everything. I glass 'em, sand 'em, everything. But yeah, so I wasn't a very good Glasser. I didn't know, I was okay. The finished product was okay sometimes, but sometimes the resident would go off on me because I didn't have a technique. And anyway, I went up to, to house surfboards and there was this guy Bob Kates, I think is his name. He was a super good Glasser, and I saw him, how he would squeegee nose detail. I was going middle out from the stringer out, and that just takes so much time. And I just saw how he did it. I go, man, that's so much different. And that's as soon as I just saw his technique, I could glass, I started glassing a lot better. And then but nobody ever sat with me and taught me anything. But I could definitely say watching Bob Kate's glass aboard was how I learned how to really, squeegee in the right directions and stuff. And then after it was just, sorry. Oh, I just wanted to ask you about using a, the planer cuz I mean I found that, yeah, going from the little hand tool to the planer, it's like easy to take off too much material and make, keeping it even and you can't hold it. You don't wanna hold it exactly square. You'll wanna hold it slightly diagonally. Can you give us, just give some pointers on like how, what your technique is with the planer when you're shaping? That's exactly, over the period of time you just, sometimes over the years I've showed people how to shape, a lot of people and when they get the planer, I mean it's I don't know how much shaping you've done, but to me it's just so natural. I can be walking down the board with the planter and I can trip, but it doesn't, the trip of my feet and the the movement of my body doesn't change my hands. I can trip almost fall down, but it doesn't my hands are still even, yeah, it's just something you get. It's like unbelievable surfers who never fall off. Whereas I'd fall off on a certain little soup hitting me or something, or kiting, windsurfing, whatever. It's just something from after shaping hundreds and hundreds of boards. But yeah, at first it wasn't easy, but watching people do it. And then a few people over my, mainly I would think Steve Licey showed me a couple things and I'm watching him in the early seventies when he came to Maui. Do you know who he ever heard of? Steve Scheyer? No, I don't think so. He was a super good surfer. He was, I think he rode for Bing back in the, in longboard days. And then he was still I think When short boards came out. He was a super good surfer, super good shaper, but he was always really open with me about techniques on shaping and stuff. He showed me some things to modify the front of my, where the depth adjuster is? He's got that slot. Do you have a scale? I don't have a anymore, but I used a planter before. Yeah. But anyway, the skill 100 planter is the best planter there is. It's got a depth adjuster in the front with a little lever that goes back and forth in this slot. When you're shaping boards, foam gets stuffed up into that shoe part. And then at the either end, the depth adjuster has a range of motion where it's a zero cut and it goes up to an eighth inch cut. Steve taught me to drill a big hole on the either end of that little slot so foam doesn't get packed in there. Cuz over the while, while you're shaping a board foam will get packed into either end and it won't allow the depth adjuster to come to zero. And it also doesn't allow it to get to an eighth inch because it's getting stuffed up. So he taught me, like on the open end where you wanna make it deeper, I drill a really big hole. So you can actually make the planer cut even deeper than a eighth inch, which was good. And then you put a cut, drill a hole in the other end so the foam doesn't get built up there, so you can actually close it onto a zero cut. And he also taught me one thing I don't know what the dynamics of this is. When you use, when you skin a blank, usually you skin it with a full cut on both sides. You go down one side. Working over to the stringer and then you plane the stringer down in a real clean cut and then you go to the other side with the exact same depth cut and work your way to the center again. And don't ask me why the cuts don't come out perfectly level. They're like this when you finally reach the center. And I used to always, and then I asked Steve, why is it like that? And he goes, I don't know, but all you do is back the planer off on your final cut instead of doing the full cut on the other side. And so ever since I learned that from Steve, the blank comes out perfectly flat after I've skinned it. Interesting. It's just little things like that Steve Licey showed me when I was, and I remember, you know how to, you, you change the depth of the cut as you're walking because like in the tail, when you're doing, when you're beveling your first cut on the rail, for example, you started a zero cut and then you increase the cut in the middle cuz the blank is usually thin in the tail, thicker in the middle and thinner in the nose. So you need to take more foam outta the middle. So you adjust the cut as you're walking. And so Steve, I saw how well he did that and I just copied it and then like shaping the v you don't start with an eighth inch cut and just start whacking away. You want a tapered cut. So you start with zero and then increase the cut as you go toward the tail that makes the V bottom cause you want more V in the back. Just little things like that. And then over and over you the shape it more and more. But anyway, like I, I was saying when I was showing other people, it's so natural for me to, and then also on the. You have the planter like this and the blades are right here. So you get a feel about where those blades are. So where you're gonna cut, it's not right in the middle, it's not in the front where it's like on a sure form you can go like that and shape what the front, the blades are here you have to learn where that cutting part is cuz you can't see it, it's underneath. And I would teach people how to shape and they would just like butcher the blank and I would get so frustrated thinking they should be able to do what I'm doing. But then I realized that it ain't easy to be able to learn that you gotta shape, you gotta take a long time to get the feel of the plant or where it cuts for sure. And yeah, I've just learned that from experience. It's nothing special about my skill. I think every shaper that's shaped a lot of boards. Matt Keena, he's a shaper here on Maui who does ka I've seen a lot of his videos on YouTube. He is unbelievable with his planer. Just really neat to watch him, his videos. And I've heard Timmy Patterson is good too. Unbelievable. With the planer. Yeah. That's so cool. All right you, so then you shaped your first surfboards and then what happened? People would see I was making surfboards, like for example, in Berkeley when I was making my first surfboards. And a couple of guys would get blanks and bring 'em over and I'd make their boards. And that was like in the late sixties when the backyard underground type shapers were coming into being and all the major manufacturers being Dewey Weber, Jacobs. Who else? Hansen. And back then, most of the boards used in the sixties were like kind of pop outs or whatever. Mo no, not pop outs, no vey. I was, the vey was the only one that I remember having a pop out board. Okay. It was a good board. It was just not cool to have a pop out. But I didn't know at the time and I didn't care, but all the other manufacturers were all custom handmade boards. Okay. And but anyway, in the sixties, I think it was partly the culture thing of, everybody was smoking pot every, and the music, the Stones, the Beatles and all that stuff. It was cool to be an underground shaper. And a lot of the bigger manufacturers I don't know if they struggled, but it wasn't quite the same as it was in the sixties, where in the mid sixties, during the golden era of surfboard making and long boarding where over the winter some of these manufacturers would produce 10, 10,000 boards, 5,000 boards for the summer rush to get ahead of it. They'd sell 'em all in the summertime. And in the sixties, I remember Dewey Weber had Nat Young on their team rider thing, and Nat was shaping a board. They called the ski and it had belly in the b in the nose, but with a down rail on the back like we do today. But nowadays the rails are down all the way front to back anyway, after a short period of time. Cuz things were evolving so quickly in the Shortboard era in the late sixties Dewey Weber produced a ton of those. Bei ski boards. And then a few months later, Nat realized that down rails were better. I think Mike Henson was the first guy to do a down rail board nose detail. And then Nat Young realized that was the best thing for its shaping. It was evolving. Dewey Weber wouldn't change cuz they already made a ton of them, it was economics. So by down, down rails, you mean the tucked under little edge, like below the, yeah. This is the shape of a longboard rail. Just rounded. Yeah. Yeah. Like they call it 50 50. So then when short boards came along, they tan, they turned like this shaping down and had more of a edge down here. I can't remember the they, it wasn't a total edge, but it was just down that's the expression we use by Unreal. Yeah. Down rail. Okay. And so what happened was, like in the rails, like even that board I got in my shop that I said I made a friend of mine in Berkeley that's in my shop, it's got a belly in the nose. And so we used to call it a high to low rail line low in the back. And then it got high in the front cuz of the belly in the nose. Then it got flatter and flatter in the back into a v in the ba in the back. And so then they changed to have the down rail all the way around. Mike Hanson was the first guy to do that. Okay. So when people saw that, how much better that was flat bottom nose with a down rail. Nat Young told Dewey, whoever, we gotta change 'em. And he goes, we can, we've already made thousands of these other ones and so he wasn't about to lose all that money, but that's just a little thing, yeah. That's here nor there as far as I'm concerned. Okay, so then people started asking you to make boards for them. You made underground boards for your friends or like how did you start? Yeah, just people that knew I made boards. It wasn't a lot. It was like three or four or five or six, I don't know, maybe it might have been 10 in Berkeley. And then and then Santa Cruz too when I moved to there. Anyway, I moved back to Maui in 71. I only lived in Santa Cruz for a year. And like I, I learned a lot in Santa Cruz cuz I'd go up to the house shop, watch guys use their planter, and and I'd learned that how to squeegee the glass and resin from Bob Kates watching him glass. And I also, there was a guy who did the gloss coats, I think, and mainly the pin lines at the out shop. I don't know, I, I can't remember his last name or even if I ever knew it, but his nickname was Nuclear Norman because his pin lines were so psychedelic. And that was right at that, it was in 1970 where, acid rock and all that stuff. He did the coolest pen lines I've ever seen and I've always tried to copy his style. Mainly it was how he tapered them. Everybody does a tapered pen line in the ends, but how he floated, he didn't do a narrow pin line and then a real quick taper at the very front. They were tapered really a long taper and do, he did all these little tape offs that were just so impressive. And I've always copied his style even to this day, pretty much Brian, I remember what the look of his pen lining was. And anyway, when I moved to, to back to Maui, 1971, I think it was early 71, I moved to Laina. And in the can Laina Cannery, there was a bunch of surf shops in there. There was a Maui Surfboards, which is where Les Pots shaped, and this guy Mike Carlson and Terry McCabe, I think they owned the shop. They were the Glasser. And then next door there was Jamie McLaughlin and Wally Bashard and Neil Norris had outer Island. I don't know if you remember the shop called Inner Island on Oahu. Anyway, that was just a take off of their name. Outer Island, right? So anyway, I went over to the Maui Surfboards shop where Les Work was shaping, and Mike Carlson and Terry McCabe had it, told them I could make boards and could I have a job. And so they hired me to sand cuz I could sand, I could do every step equally as well, cuz I did 'em all, every board I made up to that time, I did everything on it, shaped it, glassed it, I coated it, put the fin on, sanded it, glossed it. Never polished back then though. So anyway, I remember sanding a few boards, not very many, and then they just told me that they needed to work themselves and they couldn't have afford to pay me anymore. And it was something like five bucks a board back then, for sanding. Yeah. Anyway, so I just walked next door to Jamie's shop and told him yeah, I, they fired me or laid me off so I can make boards if you need anybody. And he goes, all right, we'll hire you to polish. Anyway, I never polished a board. I didn't know it at the time, but Jamie was doing a lot of coat and so I was in there one day and he was sitting there trying to do pen lines on a board. And I just loved hanging around surf shops, whether I was working or not. I loved the smell of resin and. He was jacked out of his brain. I had no idea what was happening, and what was, and he goes, Hey, can you do pin lines? And I go, yeah. He goes Here, he hands me the roll of tape. He goes, I gotta split anyway, he leaves and I do all the pin lines on a couple boards. And as I, like I said, I could do 'em really good. Even at that stage of my early career. And I, and obviously, copying Nuclear Norman's style, Jamie came back the next day and goes, Jesus Christ, these are unreal. You're hired. So now I was the pen liner at that shop. A couple days later he was jacked out of his mind again, trying to tape off a lamination to glass aboard. And he says hey, can you glass? I go, yeah, I can glass. He goes, here, do these boards. I gotta split. And I didn't know what, what was going on. All I know is shoot, I'm a glass. And so I glass those boards. He saw that I was a super good Glasser and now I was the Glasser there, the Glasser and the pin line. So back in the early seventies, I got known more as a Glasser because I was glasson not only those boards, but there was another shaper, Carl Hoke in LA more toward La Haina town who was making boards. But I was a better Glasser than most people. So I got to glass a lot of the boards around, and then even when Les Pots started shaping him in a different place, they'd send their glass jobs to me cuz I was a real good Glasser. I think Li Les gave me a nickname, Luigi Squeegee. And then some guys would call me Pin Line Louie. And I remember those two nicknames back in the seventies. Anyway there was a, we lived in this Filipino camp, which is just north of the cannery. There was four. Houses, there were U-shaped buildings with just seven rooms in each one. There was four of 'em down the street in the back. There was two kitchens and two showers and bathrooms out in the back, like old cane style houses, right? And in the back where I had her, I was renting a room in one of those places. I wanted to build a shaping room back there. So I did. And us howley guys, we were moving into those, that Filipino camp all, there was a lot of Filipino guys living there, older guys working in the, either the pineapple fields or the can fields. And they didn't like us cuz we were disrespectful, especially this one guy. And me and a couple of the guys. We weren't bad, but this one guy was a real dick to those guys and they hated us being there. They're, they work, they get up super early in the morning, they work all day and then they come home early. They want to sleep and work partying and stuff. And it was, thinking back on it, we were just those poor guys. But anyway, they were friends with this building inspector, some of those guys. So I built this shaping room and it was almost done. And so the building inspector come and told me, oh, you gotta have a permit for that. And so I applied for the permit, gave him $4 if I remember what it was. Super cheap, gave him the $4. And then he gave me the permit, but he said I had to cha fix the roof cuz it wasn't built sturdy enough. So I fixed that and then he came back again another week later, said I had to fix this. I fixed something else. And finally I told him, just tell me everything I need to fix one time. And and I'll. And then he came back a couple weeks later and said, Nope, you have to tear it down. You're too close to the property line and too close to the building, which I'm sure was true. But back then, nothing mattered. There was really no codes that anybody really needed to follow. And I just knew that some of the guys in the neighborhood told him to not to let me do that because that was just gonna be even more upsetting to their life. Their what was left of their peace and tranquility in their own house. So I had to take the thing down and I told gimme the goddamn $4 back. And he goes, Nope, you don't get your money back cuz you have to get a permit to tear it down too. And that cost $4. But anyway, that, but I still glass. I had a glassing rack I think up on the front porch or something, and a pin line room in the storage room. But I still did. Anyway, over in the cannery, I remember there was this the caretaker of the cannery was this old Hawaiian guy, and I think he was the father of the landlord of our house, and he was the caretaker of the cannery. And there was this single corrugated 10 building over there on the side over there. And I asked him, I was looking at it one day, I go, Hey, what is this? And he goes, just a room. I go, Hey, can I rent it? And he goes yeah. I go, how much? He goes, I'll tell you what, every once in a while, just gimme a case of beer. I goes, so I cleaned the place up and made a bitch and shaping room in there. And that was my shaping room for a long time. And then behind this building right next to mine, it was just a single building by itself. By itself, away from the main cannery part. Was this guy that we painted, I painted houses with this guy who owned, who had that workshop. He let me build a little lean to in the back of his shop that was next to my shaping room, the glass boards. I had a lock on the shaping room, but I remember the glass room was always open. Anybody could go back there and I would shape the boards and then leave 'em on the racks glass 'em, and never had any problems with theft or nothing. So anyway, yeah, I was, and then I started, I then I'd been making boards. I was getting pretty good at shaping and then really good at glassing. Cause I was glassing a lot more boards than I was shaping. And so I was, like I said, I was mainly more known as a Glasser. And so you basically went into business for yourself. You were basically just had your own glassing business. Other people would shape the blanks and give 'em to you and you would glass them, or you were also building. Yeah. Yeah. But also the thing is I'd also worked in hotels too. I was a busboy for a while and a waiter, and I also painted houses with this guy. That was my main thing, really. Painting houses and condos and working in the hotels. Surfboards were always, at least back then, a side thing. I never really thought of it as a main income, and partly was just because the irresponsibility, my, my life was so irresponsible back then it was all just surfing. And I tend to maybe put all surfers in that category, but I guess it's not necessarily true. But generally surfers aren't very reliable people and punctual, especially surfboard makers, surf good. You don't go to work. Yeah. Yeah. And our whole thing revolved around surfing. I remember one, me and this friend of mine, I was a little more what do you call it, responsible than him, but we were both bus boys up at the Royal Ohio. And there had been like a drought of surf in Laina that summer, like maybe a month or a month and a half with not even a ripple. And then one day it got two feet waist high or something like that at Laa Harbor. It was so small. Mala wasn't breaking or the, I don't need anything. The break wall was breaking. It was so small. And we go out and we have to be at thr at work at three o'clock to set up the restaurant cuz we're bus boys, right? And so we're out there surfing and then we go, okay, we better go in pretty soon to get to work at three. And they go, ah, let's get one more wave. And we kept doing it. He goes let's just go to work late. And so we'll get a couple more waves. And then finally we just said let's just not go today. Fuck it. Let's just quit. So we just stayed in the water till evening and quit and then a couple days later went and picked up our paychecks. That's how irresponsible I was. And my friend too. But that's, I never took surfboard making seriously as a job until windsurfing came along. Okay. So then, yeah. So what happened when windsurfing came along? It was like in the, actually in 1977, I think I moved to the mainland. I moved to Hermosa Beach and for a year, and Steve Licey was living back on the mainland at this time. And he was shaping in this one shaping room across the street from this glass shop called South Shore, I think. And this guy, Wayne Miata, was the Gloucester pin liner. And Mike, this guy, Mike Collins, owned the shop, I think. And I told, I asked Steve to introduce me to somebody so I can get a job in a glass shop or something, and he always was real hesitant about doing it and Steve was taking a lot of drugs back then, and he had a real bad reputation of, so he had told me later that was the reason he didn't want to introduce me to these guys because it would've looked bad for me if he walked, if I walked in with Steve. That's what a nice guy Steve was, even in his heavy drug use. He was considerate of what would happen with me. Finally, I bugged him enough that he finally went to that shop and, Hey Mike, you know this guy, he is a really good Glasser from Hawaii and he is a really good Glasser, the best. And then he walked out and then, so I don't know what that did, but I started going to that shop every day and just hanging around. And then finally one day I also was going to Santa Monica City College. I don't know why I was going there and I took weightlifting and I took PE or something, just, I dunno what I, why I even did that. But there was this guy in the weightlifting class, the teacher, in fact, I'm still in contact with that guy a little bit every few years when he comes to Maui, he emails me, but he wanted me to make, I told him I was a board maker and he, I had, he had me make him, I think a seven foot or a seven, six. Er, pintail, surfboard. So I, I got a blank shaped it for him. The place where Steve Licey was shaping, he introduced me to the guy and the guy was so nice to let me shape there too. So I shaped the board and then I told the guy in the glass shop, I got a board to glass. I can buy the materials from you. Let me glass it here and you can see what I do. And so I took that board in the sh in the glassing room. He let me do it really unbelievable now that I think about it for them to let me do that, and their shop where they're running a business. And so anyway, I pulled the, I taped the board off, pulled the glass out, and he sat there and he goes, okay, I'm gonna make you feel real nervous now, watching right over your shoulder. I didn't feel nervous cuz I was good, so I glassed the board. Perfect. He was stoked. I got hired the next day. Nice. So I was doing six boards a day. That no, maybe it was, yeah, only six, six or eight boards a day. They had five ranks. So they wanted you to They wanted me to do well, I was in the wintertime, I think so I think I was doing how many boards? Was it six or eight boards a day? I'd line up three or four, pull the glass out, laminate each one by the time they were done. And then we'd have lunch and then it was time to flip 'em over and do the decks. And I had to have 'em done for the evening for the guy to come and hot coat and put the fin boxes in. So I got so good at glassing, and doing all of those boards day after day where I'd mix up the. Right when I was finished glassing, and I don't know if you've ever seen anybody glass, you drip a drop a resin over the nose and tail to fill up the air holes. I had it down so well that right when I was finished glassing and dropping that drip a resin onto the nose, it was gelling every time I had it down, perfect. And to give you an example of how some people, how when I get, for example, how my, I feel like it's so natural and I, if I teach somebody, they should be able to do this too. This kid wanted to learn how to glass aboard. So I brought him in and like I said, there's five boards in a row, five boards on the rack. I'm masking taped off each one in a row. And I told him the exact same thing over and over again four times. So he'd get it in his head how to do it, and then I pulled out the fiberglass on all four boards, cut 'em, told him what I did four times in a row, and then I laminated all these boards four or five in a row with the resin. And then I said, okay, now you do your board. And he did it, set it up, took a while to set it up, and then when he mixed up the resin, he just froze. He didn't know what to do. And I just freaked. I go, sh the board, the resins gonna go off on him. If he doesn't move, I go move squeegee the resin. And he just started kinda doing it a little bit, but not much. And anyway, I just grabbed the squeegee out of his hand and finished it for him because he, his board would've been ruined. But Yeah. Yeah. The, it's so time sensitive, especially with the polyester rein. You only had so many minutes to get it done. So you had to have Exactly the timing down, yeah. Yeah. But I got real, real good at glassing. In those days, were you using respirators and all that kind of safety equipment? Yeah. Yeah. But not religiously, and yeah, I think I had a mask. My another thing I gotta mention about what Steve Slick Ameer taught me too, I used to wear my mask when I was planning. And when you plane the drum I have on my planter now is an abrasive drum. So it makes real fine dust. It doesn't make fits like so when you're planning with a regular blade, with a regular blades on your planter, it, it shoots off big chunks. Bigger chunks, right? And then when you're fine shaping with sandpaper, it makes real fine dust. I used to shape with my mask on with the planter, and after I was done with the planter, I'd take my mask off and shape with the sandpaper. And Steve said, Jesus, Jimmy, if you're gonna take your mask off at some stage, do it when you're abusing the planter. Those are big chunks. It's not gonna go on your nose and your lungs as easy as that fine shaping. So I've learned to, I'd learned to not take my mask off when I find shape, but still, it wasn't until like at least 20 or 25 years ago, but I started really paying attention to always wear my paper mask. And I always wear the ma respirator anytime I mix up any kind of resin. Mainly when I open up the acetone. Acetone is worse, I think, than resin on your nervous system than resin fumes. But I always am real, real vigilant about it now. Good. And I have been for years and years, specifically with the paper, You can't see it in the glassing room, but there's all these little diamond, you ever seen a reflection, sun reflection coming through a window and dust in the air. Glassing room. It's little sh shiny things. That's all the fiberglass dust in the glassing room that you don't see unless the a sun beam is coming through the window. So that's why I know I need to wear that paper mask every time I'm in that shop, in my shop. Okay. So you're in still 1977 Hermosa Beach. Like what made you go back to Maui in the first place, and then what made you go back to California? Like what motivated you to move back and forth? The first time I came to Maui was the first time I was away from home. Went back to, it was like right after high school. And then I moved back to Santa Cruz by the ti a year later. I was a year older, a year of living on my own already again in Santa Cruz, away from my mom's house. And then I wanted to be in Hawaii again. The same reason I wanted to be for the first time for surfing and for surfing. And my brother, he was the influence on that cuz he moved there first for surfing. Okay. So I moved back for surfing. I can't remember why I moved back to the mainland for a year, but did that. And then after a year I wanted to go back to Hawaii, but I think bef I was maybe in Hermosa for six months, then I moved back to Berkeley at my mom's house. And then I got a job this friend of my sisters was working with this rich guy, remodeling this big building. And so I got a job working there, construction, saved up a bunch of money, and then moved back to Maui. And where did I live? I think I moved to this side, the north side here, and got a job painting houses with a friend of mine. And then I was also shaping surfboards for this shop called Monte Surfboards. And I think it was in 1978 that Mike Walsh and this guy named Mark Robinson, who was a well known Florida windsurfer back when, windsurfer brand that was 12 foot plastic boards. That's, that was what the windsurfing sport was all about. Those boards. But Mike and a few other guys were starting to make shorter custom boards. And so when he came to Maui, Mike came by this shop cuz it was a surf shop. And where else would you go to get a custom board made? So I don't know why the owner of the shop, John Su let me shape the board cuz he was the owner and he was a shaper also. But somehow I, I shaped Mike's board and I think I had some pictures of that somewhere. But it was like a 12 foot race board. And then I made him maybe a nine foot, what they called a jump board back then, cuz they weren't really surfing on waves. They were going out and jumping over waves and then riding them straight off. They were, cause a lot of the boards back then, before they started making surfboard shape wind surfers were like boats or more like a boat than a surfboard. So I made those a couple boards there. And then at the house in KeHE, I that I lived at I thought windsurfing is gonna maybe be a big thing and maybe I can actually make a living making windsurfer. Shaping, right? So I was starting to build a a shaping room in the garage at my house, and the guy that was managing that house for a rental for us, told me, the landlord told me to take that down. I couldn't build a shaping room in the garage. So I had all this lumber. And then right at that time, Fred Haywood, Mike Walson, bill King started, had, were starting sail boards, Maui, I think in 1980. Fred had his old family house in Kalu there that they converted into a showroom. And there was an old garage in the back, a separate building. And Fred told me, why don't you bring all your lumber over here and build the shape and room in this garage here? So I did. And then right then was when the Windsurfer company, oil Schweitzer they wanted to make some short boards. And they made what the board, they called the Rocket 99, which was kinda like a pig shape, like the Vessy pig shape board, a narrower nose, a wide round, not round squi. It was a little squash tail with a real hippie back. And then another one, a nine one, and what was that called? The rocket? A Rocket 88. And I think it was a nine foot surfboard shape, round pin. Ainger Pintail, sorry, a Ainger Pintail. So the guy, this guy in California had the templates for those two boards. And so I, they had me shape them the plugs that Hoyle Schweitzer was gonna make the molds off of. And right at that time, there was this big windsurfing race on Oahu called the PanAm Cup. There was a big triangle race. I don't know if you know what the triangle race format is, where they have a buoy, straight up wind. So it's a lot of tacking to get up to that buoy. And then there's a broad reach and then a downwind leg. So it's a triangle course where all these guys on race boards, race around it. There was no wave surfing at that time, really Not much. And so Robbie Nash was pretty much starting to be the king at that time of racing. And so when the PanAm Cup was there one year, I think it was the same year we started making those two plugs at sail boards, Maui. And so people were coming to Maui because they were realizing that Maui was a much, much better spot for windsurfing than Oahu. Yeah, I guess at the time, like Diamond and Kailua were the epicenter of windsurfing in Hawaii, right? Bef Kailua was, I don't know so much about Diamond Head maybe, I can't remember cause I wasn't really even windsurfing. I was windsurf boards for a little bit before I even started windsurfing. But yeah, we made those boards and then I never stopped working. People would come and start ordering custom boards, so we made the glassing room and the shaping room was already there cuz I made the shaping room to, to shape those two boards for windsurfer surfer. And then we just started making boards and those were the, some of the first sinkers. And I think at that same time, Mike Walz had Jerry Lopez shape him a little, I think it was an eight foot board or something like that, 20 inches wide. Thin, thin for a windsurfer, but had three stringers in it. Jerry shaped it and then they brought it down and I glassed it. And that was one of the very first shortboard boards that they had to water start. And they were just learning to water start at that time. And then it just exploded for Maui because Maui was such a good spot. Sail boards, Maui was getting all the attention that it deserved, and we were in the epicenter of windsurfing in the world. And fortunately for me, I was there with Mike Wal and Fred Haywood, couple of the biggest stars in windsurfing at the time, and that was, that's the first time I ever made a living shaping, and I never did anything else. Actually, let's see. Yeah, I never did anything else after that. Shaped and glass boards and yeah, we made boards for three or two or three years before I went off on my own. All right. Yeah. So I remember those days when I was just trying to find some pictures here. I'm gonna screen share this real quick. Back then the the boards were like, yeah, he, you went to really small boards and then like the booms were longer than the board sometimes and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's that picture. See that picture on the right? Yeah. Top that's that first wind surfer I made for Mike Walz. Oh, okay. I guess it's not 12 feet. Maybe it was 10 feet. Because somebody, I posted that picture one time in that, on that Facebook page, I think it's old School Winds, surfers, it's called or something. Oh, windsurfing Hall of Fame is what I'm looking at here. Yeah. But I think there's a Facebook page called Old School Winds. Surfers. Okay. And I put that picture of that that one, that race board I made Mike. Yeah. Okay, cool. Some of these pictures are modern, more modern, you can see they got r a f sales, but there was one. See that one right where your mouse is right now? Yeah, that's, I know. Windsurfer logo. See how far the mass step is up there and stuff. Yeah. Really f close to the nose and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when, so sail boards, Maori became a well-known brand and people were ordering custom boards. I got known around the world because of windsurfing and anyway, how I got into speed was I was shaping this one wave board. It was an eight six, I don't know how wide they were back then. It was a three stringer board, and I was taking the stringer down with my block plane in the middle. And back at that time, and maybe a couple years before, Dick Brewer was making this little concave right under the wide point and the rocker part of the board of his surfboards. It was like a concave, I think it was about like five or four or five, six inches wide. And just a couple feet long, just a tear drop. And it was maybe a gimmick or whatever. I don't know what it really did. I don't know if I ever made him on a surfboard, but I gouged the foam when I was shaping this, taking the stringer down on this eight, six round pen board I was making. And so I go shoot, it had this big gouge in the foam and I go, oh, I'm just gonna do one of those little concaves, like Brewer did. So I taped it off and shaped a concave into it. That board was sitting on the shaper room I'm in, in the showroom floor. Pascal Market came and bought it off the showroom floor. And at the time, the only, there was, I think only two speed events in the world at the time. One in Weymouth and one in this town called Breast. In France. And so Pascal took that board to Weymouth and Wind Surfers were going to Weymouth and Breast for a few years already, and they were going like 22, 23 knots at the best. And at the time there was a boat called Crossbo, which was a big catamaran that these English guys made that had what we call the absolute world speed sailing record. That means the fastest sailing craft powered by a sale. Obviously powered by a sale regardless of sale size, board, boat size, anything. Whoever can sail the fastest has the world record. Now in these events, they had different classes of sale size, like they had a 10 square meter and then a, I don't know, on and up, depending on what size sale you had. But you could still have the absolute world speed sailing record regardless of what class you were in. It's whoever went the fastest. But then there were speed records for each class too. So anyway, Pascal took this board that had that little concave in it over to Weymouth, and I think in 1982, and he broke the windsurfing speed record. It wasn't a world record, it was like 27 point, I think eight two knots, and it was huge news. Yeah, I think that picture right there, Ellie Z, that might have been Weymouth. I don't know. Yeah, it says 1982, so it's probably, yeah, that was, that looks like Weymouth to me, but yeah. Interesting. Okay. But anyway, so Pascal made that record and so it was big news and I remember it was done on a Neil Pride. Maui sales. Barry Spanier and Jeff born were making Maui sales at the time. And it was just on a stock Neil Pride, Maui sales sale too. And so it was huge news in the windsurfing world and in the Windsurfing magazine, big articles on it. And so that put the focus on speed on my boards and on Neil Pride Sales, Maui sales specifically. And the next year Fred wanted to go to Weymouth and see about doing a speed trial seeing about going for the world record or whatever, or a speed record. Yeah. There's a picture of Fred on the board I made with a wing mask. That was 83. So I shaped Fred two boards. One was a nine footer, I think it could have been I don't know, 2021 inches wide. And then also that one that's in that picture you're showing, that was eight nine, I believe. And maybe it was 18 and a half or 18 inches wide. And I did that concave on the bottom, going into a double concave on the, on, in the back. But the concave was a lot wider. I think it was almost rail to rail and a lot more flowing all the way through the bottom of the board. Fred did 30 point something knots, which was even bigger news than what Pascal did cuz Fred broke the 30 knot barrier. And that was a front page picture of Windsurf Magazine. Yeah. See Fred Haywood Bus 30 knot. But that nine foot board, this is this is one of my claims to fame and claims. The geometry of my boards, Barry Span, span, you called it the imperceptible geometry of the shapes I was doing Fred had a nine foot board that he sold the nine I made him the eight, nine, and the nine footer. He wasn't going to use the nine footer cuz that eight nine was so good and it was smaller. So he sold the nine footer to Robert Terra to how I know you know who he was. Robert's a good surfer and he, back then, shoot, I think he was my 15 or 16 years old back at that Weymouth event. So on that world record, not the world record day, but that day Fred did 30 knots. Robert went from, I don't know what place he was in, but second place in the entire event when Fred sold him, my board, the board I shaped. So it was, it's pretty objective. It's pretty easily to say objectively that board helped Robert get that speed. Not his sale, nothing else because when he got that board I made, he went up to second place on it. But anyway, that really catapulted sail board's, Maui Neil Pride, Maui sales, and me into the big spotlight of windsurfing surfing. For the next several years, all I cared really, I was making wave boards too and but speed boards was our main thing. So the next year, 1984, I started traveling. I think that picture you showed of me holding that red board, might have been 84, maybe 85. But I started going to speed trials too, and I was okay, but I wasn. There was 60 people at each speed sailing event. They only allowed 60 people to enter. And I was always in all the events around 30, at the end of the event, I was right in the middle of the pack. I wasn't anything exceptional, but I had potential. But the the speed trials, the top people were only separated by tenths of a knot. Like 38.2 or 38.1, real minuscule amounts of speed. Would determine who was first, second, and third and fourth. So I was always in the middle of the pack. I wasn't like 10 knots slower than the first place people, but but anyway, each event I would go to mainly it was just Weymouth in France in those first few years. And I go to, people would order speed boards from me, from all over the world. And then the next event I would come, I'd bring four or five or six boards to people. Yeah. And then and then one year, this guy Julian Kendall had he had gone to the Canary Islands a lot and he said there was this one spot down there in Ford of Ventura that the average wind speed was like 25 or 30 knots a day during the summertime. And it was a killer place to have a speed trial. Like for speed sailing, you want offshore wind so you can sail right next to the beach and have it real smooth, cuz the farther out you get the choppier it gets. So ideally you want butter, smooth water. With a lot of wind. And this place in the Canaries, he said was just epic. So a lot of us went that in that June of 1986. And I remember Joey Cabbel was getting interested in speed sailing and unfortunately he did not go to that event. That was at the same time there was gonna have a slalom event in Hood River Gorge. And I remember talking to Joey and he goes, yeah, I'm not sure where I want to go, whether I want to go to the Gorge event or this Canary Islands event. And unfortunately for him, he didn't go, cuz I know he would've been good, at speed. And so anyway, we all went over there and then the, there was a week long the, at the time actually at one of the previous France speed events. Fred didn't want to go to that event for some reason. And this German guy named Michael Puer broke Fred's 30 knot record. He didn't break the world record, but he did 32 something. 32 knots. And so now there was a rivalry between Fred and this guy. Like they wanna, it was just for publicity, and they took some pictures of Fred and him looking at they wanted a fight, although they were friends, it was just a kind of a, what do you call, a publicity thing, right? And so anyway, we all go to the Canaries and the first week there was a trial period, there was a two week long event, a main event was a week long. And the first week was a trial event. So we were all there for the trial event. We could sail in the trial event. The trial event was to get other people qualified to be in the main event. And I think, I don't know how many people were already qualified. Me and most of the people that were on the speed circuit got seated. And then I don't know how many people there were gonna take from the qualifying rounds. New people that are on the speed sailing. So whoever got into that event that qualifying round and did a certain amount, the top, how many got to go in the man event? So during that first event the trial part, Reinhard Ishka, this friend of ours here on Maui, he was really a young guy too from Austria, who's been on the speed. He broke Michael's record. Meanwhile, Michael's on the north side of word of Venturas riding waves. He was seated in the main event. So now his record is broken by Reinhardt already, even though it's just the trial event. Anyway, the main event starts and we're all sailing and I'm as usual in the middle of the pack, like number 30 or 28 or 32, okay. Never up near the top. But all the top guys are writing your boards basically, right? A lot of people were. Yeah. There was a lot of people were. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a 13 inch wide board. In fact, it was interesting, Eric Beal is the first guy who started making narrow boards. I remember at one of those French events, he had me make him a 16 inch wide board, and we thought he was nuts. 16 inches wide, how are you gonna ride it? And Eric, I think won the event on that board. And anyway, when it came time to come to futa, we were all making, Eric was making 13, 12 inch wide boards. Eric was narrower than anybody all the time. Eric wasn't as, he was a little lighter than me, taller than me, but his technique. And was just incredible. And back then it was like, if you're not big, you're not gonna go fast. And Eric wasn't big. He was taller than me, but not thick and heavy. But it was just his technique. But, so anyway, when Pascal, at the last minute, he was riding other people's boards up until far of Ventura and not doing anything exceptional, and then he asked me, he says, okay, make me a board. And I said, okay, let's make it thir 13 and a half. I talked him into making it narrow and he didn't wanna make it narrow at the time, but anyway, I made him a 13 and a half inch wide. Eight, six. My board was an 8, 1 13. I forgot what Eric's were, but Fred was tired of carrying so much equipment with him to all these events. So he only brought one board, which was a nine foot, I believe, 19 inches wide board that I made him. And he only brought a Neil Pride, r a f sale. And we all had Canberra induced sales, right? And so one time on Maui before this event, Eric was riding asy sails and as he made this killer Canberra induced sail. And so I tried it one day down at the beach at SP freckles. And I couldn't believe the acceleration with that Canberra induced sale, right? And it was much better than the Neil Pride, r a f sales. And so I asked Barry if they were gonna make some Canberra induced sales, and Neil Pride didn't want to make 'em at that time because of the financial thing. They had already invested in the R a F. And I go, shoot, I wanna ride Canberra and do sales, So I contacted Jeff Magna from Gastra, who was Pascal. They were sponsoring Pascal and asked him if I could be get some sales. And they were stoked, even though they didn't, even though I wasn't one of the top riders, I just had the reputation of the board maker and they thought it'd be good if they gave me some sales. So they sent me a bunch of Canberra induced sales, and I was riding the five meter a lot on Maui. Then the day before the, we left on the plane to go to the Canaries. It was super windy and I had my 13 inch wide board down there and I rigged up the 4.3 gas sale for the first time. And I took off the beach and it's choppy there, but still you can feel your equipment. And I just was, couldn't believe the acceleration and the speed I was getting. And I came in and I go, Jesus Christ, if we have wind, I might have a chance. This is just night and day feeling that I've ever had of the acceleration of this sale. So anyway, we go to the Canaries and the whole event, everybody's sailing and doing what, and like I said, people are doing this and that. The record was already broken up to about 35 knots, I think already, but we hadn't broken cross ball's record of 36 knots. Not us, but anybody. But I think Reinhart and Pascal had already done 35 knots up till the second to the last day of the event. Anyway, the second to the last day of the event was ridiculously windy. Something like 40, 45 knots, just perfect direction. Butter smooth, not a ripple near the beach. And then it got super windy out, choppy outside, but it was just dead flat water, no surf, nothing. It was like those pictures you were just showing. But radical wind. And so we all knew something was gonna happen that day. So they also made a, they have a rescue boat. But anyway if you've ever b

 Aloha Friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to the third season of the Blue Planet Show. I started this show a couple years ago in my home office, in the garage during the pandemic, just to get to know other wing foilers find out more what drives them, what inspires them. And as always, I like to find a little bit more about their background and just get to know them a little bit better and learn for my own benefit. And I'm stoked to be able to share it with all of you. I get people coming up to me all the time saying I'll watch your shows all the way to the end. So I'm one of the 5% that watches the whole thing. So stoked to hear that. And I know many of you are also listening to it as a podcast while you're driving to the beach or going foiling and getting stoked or just listening to it while you can't go in the water because it's too cold, or you're traveling or whatnot. Stoked. Always to hear that kind of stuff, super stoked. And today's guest is James Casey, who also has a great podcast. So if you haven't listened to that, it's all about downwind foiling. You should check it out. And he also has a coaching club that you can join to learn about downwind foiling. He's an amazing athlete. He holds the record for the most kilometers foiled in one day. And a great coach for any of you who want to get into downwind foiling. And he also invented the sport of winging upwind and then deflating and foiling downwind. Really cool stuff that he's doing and pioneering also designing and testing equipment and so on. Without further ado, here is James Casey. Okay, James Casey. Welcome to the Blue Planet Show. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I've watched a bunch of these shows and yeah, it's cool to be on here myself now. Yeah. And I've been listening to your shows while I'm driving and getting stoked and motivated to do more downwind foiling. So thanks for doing that. A lot of really good information on your show. And I want to get into that, like Doman foiling, your Casey crew or the coaching crew, and then also the Moloka race, and then your announcement about joining Code foils and all kinds of stuff. Your record 213 kilometer record on a foil all that kind of stuff. But before we get into all those things, let's talk a little bit about your background. Let's go into a little bit like where, where you were born, how you grew up, and how you got into water sports and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So yeah, James Casey. I was born in Sydney, Australia, and it's basically the east coast. And my mom and dad both surfed as a kid. They took me out surfing and like a boogie boarding first and then surfing. And I think I got my, I remember vividly actually gave you my first surfboard when I was like, probably a bit of a late starter compared to people nowadays, but I was like 10 or 11. I got like this PCUs, four Finn, super nineties board, skinny nose, like super pointy, heaps of rocker. But that was my first board. This was just one of my dad's old boards that he didn't use anymore. Yeah, this is your board now. You can, you can take this here, this out. And yeah, pretty much surfed all through my teenage years. I competed in like board riders, so I was I won the juniors movale board riders season sort of competition. But then I got 18, 19, I started getting worn in my rugby union. So I was playing a lot of rugby. Played for the, I guess the local club, the Ringer Rats, and was, I played a couple games in first grade, but I was basically just too small to be to be, following that dream as a, as an athlete in rugby. I was also competing against basically , who's now the Wallabies captain, Michael Hooper. So like in people who watch rugby would know what I'm talking about. But yeah, I was playing rugby against him a lot, so rugby was always, I was always second field to him, but I just loved it. It was great camaraderie and that sort of stuff and, but I was still juggling my rugby and surfing and basically as a rugby player you're pretty big and bulky and so it's not the best for surfing. But I got into standup paddling in my sort of I guess it was, I don't know the exact date, but I was. Pretty young. I was probably like 14 or 15. We, we were in Hawaii and I sprained my ankle kite surfing. And wait, so when, how did you get into kite surfing? Yeah, I was thinking that when I said that. Gotta explain that, . So I got into kite surfing. I used to go to Maui a lot. Basically my dad was a wind surfer and basically every July we'd go over to Hawaii to f as a family holiday to windsurf. And I was learning to windsurf and then all of a sudden all these kite around and I'd just nailed for windsurfing, I'd nailed my like water starts. So on the small sort of wave riding board, I was water starting, I was just starting into wave riding. And then I cut my foot on the reef out at uppers at Kaha. . And so I was outta the water for a bit and when I was outta the water, my brother, younger brother and sister learned to kite surf and then I was all fired up. I wanna learn to kite surf, it looks easier and you're on a smaller board. And so basically going backwards, I guess windsurfing my dad, cause he windsurf, he took us out in the lake a lot. Just a local Naraine lake. And we'd learned to windsurf on a big, we used to call it the island. Just a massive, it was a starboard, I think a massive starboard and you can get three people on it. It was super stable for us kids as well. So we did that. Then, so then I learned on a smaller board, wave, wave sailing and never really nailed it. I one or two trips down to OA and then Hawaii was almost there and then I cut my foot outta the water for a week. Then went to kite surf and kite surfing was what we loved to do as a family. Like my brother, my dad, and myself would all go out kite surfing at home and then me when it was sick. But yeah, then I sprained my ankle. Kite surfing this one time. I guess it was, it must have not been July cause there was some waves. Must have been, winter. And there were heaps of good. It was good surf that year too. So I cut my foot so sprained my ankle kiting and I couldn't pop up on a surfboard like, like regular surfing because my, an basically res sprained my ankle. So we went to the local shop what's it called? High Tech in Maui. And we rented Hawaii Paddle Surf, like standup paddle board. Cause we'd seen lad do it, we were in hook keep and Lad was doing his helicopters and that looks pretty cool. Yeah, we went down the hike. So can you, do you guys sell these salmon paddle boards? Yeah, we got a couple. So we rented two of those and we're actually staying at like near Mama's Fish house. , and there's a few reefs out there and basically, When there's no wind. We managed to score some really good sessions out there on the standup paddle board, just like glassy and like four to six foot kind of thing. And I was on a standup paddle board on these outer reefs and it was like, oh, this is pretty legit. And on the standup paddle board was easier because you're paddling out to his outer east and instead you're comfortable. So I'm like, this is cool. So he went home and St. Paddling wasn't really a thing yet. Went home and the local shop, I came in Sydney WSS boards. Sam Parker had, didn't have any production boards, but he did have a custom one that he, a local builder had built him just basically a big longboard. And so we grabbed that off him for a week and just was roughing out on that. No ankle is now better now. So it was just like, it was just cuz we liked it. And basically we, when the stock came in, we bought one, but be between that we were I actually grabbed my dad's windsurf board and we'd never paddled, so we had a rake and we cut the prongs off the rake, the plastic rakes, and we were paddling around the local spot on this windsurf board, like a smaller windsurf board had the full sandpaper deck. So we got all, got smoked rashed up on the stomach. But yeah, that was, and then, basically once the production stuff was out in Australia, we were riding it, but I was never really competing. So like I did all this is all like, 13, 14 or whatever, what's that sort of age? And so I was paddling it, but I didn't know there was competitions and my brother worked in the local shop WSS boards. And there was, I went to one competition at Long ra and I wasn't really, it was fun, but it wasn't really something I was motivated to, to pursue. We did a race, actually the fir, my first s race was Movale to Collary, which is like eight Ks. and it was a nice little northeast Lee Breeze. My I'd never paddled a race board before my brother working at the shop had organized a board for my himself, my dad and me. And there was two 14 footers and 1 12 6 and somehow I got stitched up and was put on the 12 six. So we're doing the race and it's all like a little down window. We just cruising cause we don't know how to race. We're just paddling like we are surfing, looking for little bumps to catch. And all of a sudden this storm comes through and we're about halfway through the race, we're at the back cause we're this cruising and this hail it starts hailing on us. So we, the massive storm, the wind was northeast hailstorm comes through the winds now south. And so we're all lying on our boards paddling into the winds like prone style. And because I had a 12 six I could keep it pointed into the wind easier. I wasn't getting blown around as much. So I, I remember vividly beating my brother. And he was all off it because he is oh, it was because you were the shorter board. It was easier for you to, paddle into the window. Mate, a shorter board should go slower. So it was, the competitive spirit was always there, but I didn't touch another race board for a very long time. So that was that was interesting. That was a not the best start to to the whole racing stuff. It wasn't until my now brother-in-law Grant Hardiman got into ums racing that I really got into thes racing stuff. But in the meantime, I was stop surfing heaps. So I still stop surfed a lot when the waves were small back home, I'd stop surf heaps, wasn't really competing, but just loved it. On the small days and you can then, you can just pedal out. The same as in, in Maui were ping out to these outer reefs and surfing waves by ourselves rather than sitting in the pack of 20 or 30 on a shortboard waiting for that one that came through. That's a muddled history, . Once I got into this, I actually got into the subs surfing, went down to an event in Marula it, so called the Maru Classic. Quite a famous event here in us here in Australia. Anyway, yeah had like guys like Rob Robby Nash come over in the history of it all. And, but I met two, two good friends now, JC Schara and Toby k Cracknell and Kai Bates as well, actually, and Sam Williams. And those sort of four people got me into the competitive side of s cause I didn't even know like the, a PPP world tour or the whatever it was called before that. I didn't know what it, I didn't know what it exist. I didn't know you could compete on a standup paddle board. I didn't know there were races. I just was just doing it for fun. Wasn't really in the scene. So they, I went over to Hawaii, did the sunset event trials, got into the main event and basically from there Tristan was like, oh, you've qualified for the whole tour now if you wanna come to Brazil and France. And I was like, oh, this is pretty cool. So I rallied. And, you I'd just finished uni at this time, so I was like, okay, I've got a bit of time. I haven't really locked myself into a job yet. So I just did that for, two, three years competing on the, the sup surf and race circuit doing, Molokai to Oahu and a bunch of races in did a few races in Europe, did a few surf events in Morocco and Hawaii and France, and went to the wave pool in Abu Dhabi. And yeah, it was a pretty cool, time and then Brun, I was doing that until Covid hit and then now Covid hit up. We basically, it's all, it all stopped all the racings on the stop stuff. And yeah. So here's I wanted to share this video. This was oh, sorry. Definitely. This was when I first met you that this was like at the mall. Mochi race. And you had a yeah, it was you and Marcus. Yeah. Marcus harder with Yeah. Talking about the dugout. I was just curious about it and interviewed you and that. So this was in 2016, was it the first time you did the mobile Kai race? This is the second time I did it. Yeah. This is the second time I, yeah and it was my third season competing, like racing over in Hawaii, but I didn't get in the first year to to do Molokai. Cause I hadn't done enough races, basically.  And that. And you were one of the first guys to use the dugout in the Molokai race, I think too. Or, and you did really well with it, right? So everybody started being curious about the dugout boards. Yeah, so dugout boards were, pretty common on 14 foot boards. But for for the unlimited boards, Not many people were using them. So yeah, it's probably good to talk about this. I was writing for JP and basically JP had said, oh, we don't make unlimited boards. You can get, one made from s i c, you can get one made wherever you want. And basically the year before I used a s I see. And Marcus had spoken to Matt Knowledge and said, oh, I think I can make something faster than your s i c what do you think? And he was like, yeah, Matt was keen. And then I got caught winded oh, if you are getting one, Matt, he was my like, sparring partner. I was like, I want one too. So we both, paid Marcus to design a board for us. And deep sort of made the boards and yeah, these are the first, unlimited dugouts that that we'd used. and basically it certainly caused a bit of a stir in Hawaii when people saw him. It was like the world's biggest bathtub when they filled up. But  Yeah, it was, they were super quick and, this relationship with Marcus, stems all the way through, like within us and Simon son over the following year. And and then I, won Moloka in 2019 on a board that Marcus and I actually built like in, in his backyard. And and that was the last, that was the last time the race was held. So you're the defending champion, theoretically. . Yeah. Look,  four years, , I only have to race once. Yeah. So yeah, no, it's it was a little project that for sure. Yeah. So I just wanted to share that. That's a classic older video. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. That's the main, yeah. Marcus is now all clean cut too. He is. Got his hash and he is shaved and he wouldn't recognize him. . Yeah. And just so I'm in the background, so are you staying at his place right now or? Yes. I'm just, I'm over here in wa I was just cause we've just we're working together now with fun code foil, so it's been set started there that year deep that's, and then sent over and now with code foils and so it's pretty cool. But yeah, I marks my good mates and yeah, I'm over here in wa I was just doing a foil camp up in Exmouth and so I've flowed back down. get back to your history though. Okay. So then you started doing the kind of the racing and also computing as a subs, surfer subs, surfery competition. . Yeah. Yeah.   my, my best result in the subs surfing stuff was the second place at Sunset. I lost a ca vaz , but it was basically I got the, it was a good year for me. Like the surf was good, my ball was good. And that was, yeah, second place and that was, I was pretty stoked. And that year I won the overall race and surf sup champion, there wasn't an official world champion sort of thing, but it was like a thing they're trying to award, overall athletes, not just thes athletes, not just the races race athletes, but the overall. So I think that was 20 must have been like 2016 kind of time where I won that sort of thing. And that's probably the biggest, sup sort of world champion sort of thing I've done in that. But yeah, I did all that until until Covid hit really, I was doing all the s sub surf events and a lot of the supp race events and then foiling came out. It stalled the momentum, with the sup stuff because foiling the reason I got into the sup racing was because I I'm a surfer first, so I've always, I've, I still surf short boards longboards foils now, obviously and standups. But surfing was where it all started. And when I got into sap, competing in standup was all about s surfing and downwind racing, because to me, downwind racing was like longboarding out to sea and you're just trimming the whole time. So it's kinda like the longboard sort of style. . And then when the foils came out and you were, I started down winding them pretty early. I was like, this is like short boarding out to sea. I'm not long boarding anymore. I'm like, we are surfing now. And so that to me was like a real light bulb moment. And a lot of people are like, oh, you don'ts race anymore. And I'm like, oh, I still do the local events. Like I, I was at the Aussie champs last year  and still do a bunch of the local events. But yeah the foiling is and the downwind foiling especially is mind blowing honestly. It's it's pretty crazy. And I guess my foil history I started, I actually met Alex Aue when I was over in Maui for a ppp race event. And I was introduced him through the Spencers. So Jeffrey and Finn were testing ups to go for stuff Me. Oh Jimmy, you gotta meet Alex, you're gonna love this foiling stuff. And so I was actually staying with Vinny and Vinny Martinez and j Jake Jensen. And we were all in a house together. Cause we're doing a race and because I was introduced to Alex basically, but Vinny and I were both slopping boards and so we only had one foil set up. Cause Alex lent us a board and a foil, like one of the original cars. And we were out at Kaha lowers trying out then a bunch of other spots between there and who keep and just if one of us was on the fall, the other one would be on like a bigger surf up just filming each other with a GoPro. And we were just trying to get the shot of us flying above the water. And that was the, and as soon as we left there, we were like, man, I said to Alex, I gotta buy one, like when can I buy one? And he's, okay. That must have been like a sep September sort of time of year. It's 2016 and then maybe it was 2017 but around that time and I ordered probably the first go fall to ever arrive in Australia, It arrived in like November just before the event, the ISA event in Fiji. And I remember going over there, I was over there to race the distance race on the standup, but I brought this foil with me and on the, when we were all surfing cloud break and whatnot in between the events and I was towing behind the boat. on the drive out on my gofoil set up. And people are losing their shit. Oh, everyone's having a go. And that was the start of, the foil brain  and the downwind stuff. And yeah, it's been a cool, it's been a whirlwind four years, since then, or I guess five years, six years since then. But yeah then I was, and I heard like the first time you tried to do a downwind foil downwind, was it with the ca foil? Yeah, so it would've been just after I got from Fiji, I went over to Western Australia and there's a race called King of the Cut and all those, so it's really good downwind run cause the, you get these sea breeze and it's like super consistent. And basically one day we went out with my square JP board and the gofoil and must have been, the board must have been like seven two by 26, but a square not like the boards nowadays had this kind of pointy tails and stuff. Pointy noses, not long and skinny and . We went out the Mandra run and we paddled, A friend of mine, Matt  and I we were swapping boards, so one of us on the foil set up, one of us was on a race board stuff. And basically we did the run I think is about 10 kilometers, 10 or 11 Ks. We did half the run and we swapped out and I got up twice, which looking back, I'm actually pretty stoked, could get up. I got up twice for about a total of like maybe 50, 60 meters up on Foil . And I was like, man, this is hard. Cause we'd seen Kyle Leni do it on his, longer board. Oh, he must just need a longer board longer skinnier board at that time. And cuz Kai was on a sorn off race board, it's 12 foot kind of thing. It's funny how in the foiling world everything just comes back, right? So like  and then, cause now we're going back to that, but this was in 20, it must have been 2016 or 17. . But anyway, it doesn't really. And then I said to Alex, I think I need a bigger foil. So he sent me over the original malico the blue one that isn't curved down. It's like a flatter one. It was actually ahead of its time because it was it was higher aspect, than the macOS were. And like when I got that one, I got home and I did a downwind run from maybe I was, anyway I started downwind once I got that foil and once I had that bigger foil, I was getting up pretty much straight away because of my my, my sort of s racing and downwind knowledge. I could read the bumps well enough and was powerful enough to get up and foil and once up, I think I was just chasing bumps and it was, yeah, it was sick, but I had the, yeah that one definitely humbling moment where we got five Ks and 50 meters of foiling, , so yeah. Yeah, . But even for you, it wasn't easy to get started, but yeah, no way. No way. But the right equipment makes a big difference for sure. Yeah even just the slightly bigger foil was the biggest, the difference for me. I think I was still on the same board more or less. I can't remember my first successful downwind run actually because I definitely had gone to Maui again and I did a downwind run with Finn and Jeffrey on a prone board. We went from Kua to Sugar Cove and we were paddling into waves and then falling around. And then Alex had this 10 foot, it was like a square board. It was a like just a, he called it the aircraft carrier. It was super long and he'd just put a little bit more rocker in it. Yeah, super light. And I paddled that thing up easy and once I was up I was like, I was good to go thing. Cause the downwind knowledge I had from racing standups just translated straight across. But I remember that first run of that big board and it was like, oh, this is pretty cool. , this is pretty epic. Boiling down wind is, As I said before, short boarding and like surfing down the coast rather than, trimming on the longer, unlimited or 14 foot stops. Six. Wait, did you say you were prone foiling on a 10 foot board? Is that what it was? Nah, so I was, I was, I'll stand up, I'll stand up paddling on that one. Yeah, that was the aircraft carrier. It was like nine or 10 foot. long, long, but it was like square. It literally it was like this shape. Yeah. The early kma boards were like that too, right? That's at the time everyone thought that's how you get it as short as possible by just cutting off the nose and tail and like its square . Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting that one Alex made actually and, and it was it was like looking back at it if he just refined that shape. It was long and it it wasn't super skinny. It was probably like 25 or 26 wide, but it was like eight foot and just it was square for stability while going. Narrow for speed and long for speed. Looking back, like there's a lot of things that led us to, the latest design that, Dave has famously invented, the Barracuda style boards. Yeah. And then you're still a team writer for Sunova, right? So when did that relationship start with Sunova? So just that video you shared before was the year after? So it was it was just as when I got my Go Foil I started on JP boards, so that was November. And then the following year, January, February, I signed with Sunova. And the first thing I did was like, okay, we need to get on, we need to make foil boards because foiling is where it's gonna be. And so I went over to Thailand and we tested a bunch of staff and we drew up with Bert Berger. He was over there and Marcus was back here. So we didn't, but Bert and I drew up our first sort of, Foil board range, and it was long, they basically weren't thick enough. So I, my first s foil board that I did with them was seven two by 24 and a half, which like is a pretty good dimensions looking back like how it's aged. But it was super thin. Yeah. So it was only like, it was only like 80 liters or something. And for me it was fine. But I remember going, starting on that and then Marcus took over designing the FOIL awards cause he was head starter foiling too. And it made sense cause he understood it. And so we basically the rails on Bert's board were like super pointy like this. Yeah. And then Marcus just made him thicker and had the, added the chime in and that extra volume allowed us to go shorter. And a bit narrower. Yeah. And a bit narrower too with the same sort of volume. But yeah, I guess our the Sunova relationship was, has been, is epic. , we're still designing a bunch of boards. We've got a bunch of prototypes coming. And yeah, there's, because I persuaded them to build these foil boards, I said, ah, and then I built like a, created the Casey brand. They're like, okay we'll put the Casey logo on it. And, it's your job to curate the design with Marcus and make sure you write the design specs and the, the website, outline, explain to people what it is. So yeah, that relation relationship with Suno has been really good. And obviously like racing, they were helping me fly around the world and travel and and the stop surfing stuff. And yeah, it's been a very healthy relationship with the boys in Thailand. The over. . Yeah. And then for, regarding the foil, so I guess you were writing for Gold Foil and then at some point you tried a whole bunch of different foils and you ended up writing for access. So how did that ha all happen and what was yeah. Sorry. I was writing for Gofo for five years so Gofo for five years and basically, started with the Kai and then the MACO came out and then the EVA and the maico 200 and all that sort of stuff came out. And then the GLS came out, which was like mind blowing cuz they were these higher aspect things. Then the P 180 and basically I've all the way up to the RS and the GT wings. I was a part of the team and it was just, yeah, it was, I was just craving a bit more input in the design process because go for guys are just like fully Maui based and they've got a pretty good test team in Maui. They've got Dave and they've got. Jeremy Rigs and they got, Alex himself is great at testing too, so they didn't really need me. And unless I was there, and when I was there, I was heavily involved in the testing stuff. And remember vividly testing shimming the tail wing. We were out, off or out of Kalu Harbor in Alex's boat. And Connor and I were both testing some Damon wings for the, there was an oli, the Oli race was coming up. And so we were testing like how to shim, like basically we're tuning our foils to get 'em as fast as we could for the race. And unfortunately that year the wind was blowing like straight on shore, so it was just a course race. But the race we did was they dropped us out outside basically between uppers and lowers at Kaha. And we raced all the way back into shore. And I remember that, was that where there was a huge surf too coming in or was that huge surf? Yeah. Yeah. And a few guys, I think I got up last. , but I think Austin climber fell off in the surf This got maxed out. You got a bomb coming through and it was a, that was a pretty cool race that was just like full, like figuring it out, yeah, and it was a bit murky water coming through. I hit something coming in through at the end, but it was sick. It was a cool race. But yeah, so we I'd worked a lot with Alex and Alex was literally I've got a house over in Maui and my family is a house over in Maui and he's actually, we actually share a boundary with Alex. We're not direct next door neighbors, but like over the back fence, like Alex is our neighbor, so it's oh, cool. There's a pretty cool relationship. When I was in Maui, like last time I was in Maui Alex had literally picked me up and we'd go, okay, we're gonna go test this thing, James. Come on, let's go. And yeah, it was super cool to be doing that. But the problem was when I wasn't in Maui, I couldn't test anything and I was only really in Maui, maybe one or.  once or twice a year, and only really for maybe a total of three weeks. So I just, I was craving more input in the design and pushing the envelope to race the wings. But also I guess with my coaching stuff I wanted to be able to, have input to help people learn to. So yeah, about 18 months ago, I, announced I was leaving Gofoil and tried a bunch of different foils. was trying lift stuff, I was trying uni foil stuff access Armstrong. What else did I try? I felt like there was some cloud nine stuff too. And basically I, and I spoke to 'em all and basically the access guys were really keen to work on a range of foils with me. And basically in the last 18 months with access, I reckon I prototyped.  probably 50 sets of gear, wow. It was kinda like, be careful what you wish for , because then my job was like, one of the things they sent out six different towel wings. They didn't tell me what they did, but they said, go out and try them and tell me what you feel. And basically little examples like that. And, so we tried a bunch of different stuff and it was an awesome relationship with Evan and Adrian. And I was on the phone to Adrian after every session. And that was exactly what I craved, like with Gofo, I did the same thing, but I only spoke to Alex every now and then. Cause I only got prototypes every, once or twice a year. Whereas with access, I was getting like every month they were sending out a box of gear and saying, test this stuff for us, test that for us. And it was epic. And if fast forward to now, I guess I'm, I've just announced that I'm working with basically a few mates of mine, Marcus, Ben, and Dan. And.  basically creating our own brand, which is super exciting. Working with Code Falls and look, if this hadn't come up, I'd definitely still be working with Access because there was, there's basically, there's no bad blood with access. Like we're there we're still mates. Adrian's actually coming up. I'm just gonna miss him in Perth, but he's coming over and I've left a bunch of gear for him cause, given some of the gear back and yeah, they want me to come over. Adrian wants to come over to New Zealand and do a downwind foil clinic and yeah, but they were cool, especially like going know when I told them about when I told them about joining code about a month ago, they were obviously a bit upset, but they were super cool and they're like, they were stoked for me that we, that I was creating my own thing. So they weren't they weren't angry at me, and the beauty is we're still mates I guess. So it's it's cool. But as I said, like the relationship with Code Falls was really good. So it's, I'm sorry. Talk a little bit about that. So code photos, like who's behind it and what's the business plan and so on. Yeah, so basically Marcus and Ben basically ha they're brothers. They, their Batard brothers and they've been designing their own or basically in the sunova range. Marcus has been doing all the foil and stuff boards for a while and Ben Tark has been doing the same for one and basically for them to be working together. It's pretty cool cuz they've got some seriously good design brains and yeah, they just, they asked me did I wanna be a part of this company they're building and yeah, I was like, yeah, let's do it. Because I've worked with Marcus for, I guess five or six years now and I've known Ben for a bit longer and Basically the plan is to, just create foils for, for sorry, the dog's just done a fart. the plan is stinks, stubby . The plan is to create foils that that we want to use, you know and that I can teach with too. Cause my coaching business is super important thing too. So at the moment we've just had one, we've had two prototypes. Basically we've got a sort of surf wing and think it's around eight 50 square centimeters. And we've just had a prototype race wing that literally, I've only tried it twice, two or three times now, and it's been. Really positive. Like the whole philosophy I guess behind it is we want our stuff to be stiff and solid and the mast and the connection to the base plate, to the mast, it's all one. But like the connection point is overbuilt, but it feels so nice and stiff. And then likewise the master to the fuse. The fuse is thick and so that's, I'm seeing if I have one actually I've got a mask just here. I can show that. Yeah. Why don't you show us? Is it all one, you said it. The fuselage and front wing and tail wing are all one piece. No. So the don't think I've got a, a tail wing or No, there's none around to you. They must markers, must took it . But yeah. Yeah. Show the mask. So yeah, you can see like the, see how that's pretty chunky down the bottom here. But we just find it adds extra stiffness. And even the base plate's pretty, pretty chunky too. Uhhuh . And then the connection to the. , this is a thicker it's just like probably 30% thicker than the, like most other brands. , just, this just allows more Fuse to get onto. So that makes the fuse a bit chunkier. Yeah. What we found straight away was that it was just super stiff, even though like our first prototype, but everything was just so well connected. So yeah. The base plate things that I was talking about and then the fuse connection was just super solid.  And that to us was a really important thing coming out with a brand now and like after seeing a bunch of brands, work on certain things, then realizing their mask is a bit stiff, isn't stiff enough. And having the connections to the front fall or the rear fall a bit, basically don't want any flex. So having that able to see what other fall brands have done, we've learned from that and basically created a pretty. Pretty what I'm loving, especially in the surf, the eight 50, it's super well connected and a lot of people, so is it, is the fuselage like aluminum like the access foils or is it more like the lift flows where it's like a front piece together with the Yeah, it's yeah, more like the lift and uni foil sort of stuff. How it's just like the front one goes on and then the fuse bolts on. Like a lot of people are comparing it to the cab, how it's on the angle, so Oh, you kind, yeah. So it's it's a super snug connection. , I can't, there was one just on the couch there, but Marcus just took off with it. No worries. Show on the shop . But yeah, we're super So you, so are you actually a partner in the business or a team writer and r and d? Or like how does that work? Yeah. More of a partner not just team riders, which is why it's like an exciting. Sort of project. So there's, we're building a brand up from nothing, so it's, yeah, four. then, so Marcus is, designer Sonova. Ben was a designer of one, no, is the designer of one. And then Dan, he's actually a, he lives three doors down and he's an architects builder, but he's really good at basically drawing everything up and making it all, so the designs, he puts it into software that makes the, it can blend everything so super clean and, slick looking connections. And he's actually, he's been working the hardest of late trying to get all the files ready to build. It's been a, it's been a, it's been a busy month, that's for sure. Yeah. And that's why you're in Perth right now? I was actually over here to do a foil camp up in Exmouth, and I extended two days before and two days after, just so I could catch up with the team and. and, talk about a lot of things and get some footage and just work on all things code as, as well as do a bit of work up the coast here. Just, it was good timing, it wasn't planned, it was just good timing. Cool. Yeah, like when we look at Australia on a Globe or something, it looks like a small little island, but to fly from Sydney to Perth is like a six hour flight or something, like three time zones, or what is it, three or four time zones? Yeah. Yes. It's, I think it's a four and a half, five hour flight, depending on the winds. And yeah, it's a, it's three hours difference. Yeah. So back home when I chat to my wife, she's, at home now it's nine o'clock here and it's midday in, in Sydney. So yeah, it's a big country. It's a big country, that's for sure. Yeah. I haven't been over and during Covid we actually couldn't fly to Perth Bec because. Everything was locked down, so it was, yeah, it's it was almost like a new country over here in Western Australia for a while. Yeah. Everything, everything went yeah. Starting new for company, with like access, they have so many different foils and design, like shapes, like different, so many different wings you can choose from and stuff like that. So starting a new company, I guess one of the hard things is the tooling costs are pretty expensive. Every time you make a new wing you have to make a mold for it and all that. Yeah. And then if it doesn't work, you have to like toss that mold and make another one or whatever yeah, exactly. Yep. It's not easy. Yeah, it's not easy at all. Yeah. The plan for the Rangers at the moment is we've got our surf wing all round, surf wing and downwind wing, which is the eight 50. So I've been surfing and down winding it , and it's been unreal in terms of size, it's. , I feel like the area's not that good a guide. Cause we all know the one 20 probably surfs a bit bigger than what, or down winds a bit bigger than what the area is. . But it's, it, this eight 50 feels somewhere between the one 20 and the one 70. Probably like a one 30 or one 40 sort of size.  If you were to compare in the lift range in the access range, it feels like an 8 99, so that's the kind of size that the one we have now. And we've got plans to build one bigger and one smaller , at the very least. And we're probably gonna go at least two bigger. So probably have five or six foils within that range. And then we're gonna do an, a race range, which we are busily working on now to get ready for mochi because it may only be March, but it takes time to build molds and test stuff. And so we've got our first one here and we've it, it's great, but there's things we can improve upon it. So we're back to the drawing board and try to make it, better. And then we're gonna do like a more of a, lower aspect sort of style foil for basically bay runs, small, slow surf and just a sl a foil that goes slower so you can so especially for me when I'm teaching, I want, I wanna fall that I can teach with that isn't going so fast that it's like scaring people,  and it doesn't have to be a really big foil to go slow. You can make us foil that is still like compact, that goes slow. So we they're the kind of the three rangers that we're working on. But really we're just focusing on getting everything released and the launch date, I guess for shops to, to have these code falls in shops for the eight 50 and I guess, and that's first surf range is or the all round range is the 1st of June. So that's what we're working towards, which doesn't seem that far away.  For us, but for everyone else, we're like, oh, June, that's like March, April, may, June. It's three months. But I think Robert, you probably know it, it takes more than just, the stuff is good now. We're just getting stuff, ordering like our, the manufacturing and logistics and stuff. Yeah, just three months is not a long time.  Not at all. So three, four months. Yeah, we're pushing hard, but it's and obviously we're hoping to have to release the bigger and smaller wings in that range. But it probably won't be till after June. So the first one will be the eight 50 that sort of slightly bigger than the lift one 20 sort of size 8 99 axis sort of size. And then the rest will come after that. But yeah, baby steps because it all, the need a cost a bit, but it takes a lot of time too. So it's, yeah, it's been a. Spend a bit of a journey already. Just I'm only one, officially one week in . Cool. And then what about boards? Are you con gonna continue with Sonova making, like the Casey labeled boards or that, or are you gonna make code foil boards also, or? No, at this stage we're gonna, like Ben still works for One Ocean Sports and Marcus and I still work for Sunova. So it just, it makes sense for us to stick with them, for the, yeah. For the time being because it's we've got great relationships with Ben's got a great relationship with Jacko at one and Mark and I have a great relationship with, Tino and Dylan at Sunova. We don't wanna, we don't wanna break that relationship and Sure we've got good products and we're super happy with how it's all working. As is and the foils, are they made at the Sunova factory or where are they made? The fos are made in China. Yeah. So they're, that we've different factory, the Sunova. Don't really do carbon fiber. I guess they're more of the bolser and polonia skins, which for a foil doesn't really work. . Yeah. It's a, it is a very specialized manufacturing process and yeah. Definitely not simple. You have to have Yeah. Get everything right. Especially like to make the mass stiff and torsional and all that, all that kind of different kind of things to consider. But anyway, yeah. Cool. Congratulations. That's pretty exciting. Yeah. Super exciting. It's been, and let's talk about the Moloka race. Since 2019 we haven't had it. And then this year it's gonna be on July 30th, I think. And I got to see the list of people for the for the foil race. And it's a pretty, pretty impressive list. A lot of people are entered. Yeah, including you and Kailan and a bunch of other really top top writers are doing the foil race, so I almost feel like that's gonna be like the main event, almost like the down one foiling, yeah. But yeah, talk a little bit about that. Yeah. Obviously 20 Montana wanna 'em a stand up and uh, basically that was my goal. That was when I first started stop Racing, my goal was to win Malachi to Oahu when I was stoked to be able to do that. And I dedicated to my dad who's now passed away. And that was a really emotional, experience to be doing that. But I feel like to me, like a lot of people are like, oh, you gotta do it again. Go back to back on the s And to me, I feel like it's almost not that chapter's done, but it's like I've achieved what I wanted to achieve on the standup. Not only that, since I started racing mochi on a sap, like the first year I did that, there were 15 to 20 big names. And probably of those we five people could have won it. The previous year, the year I won, there were probably only like probably five or six people that were like really racing it com like super competitively with a win. And of that sort of five or six, there was probably only two or three or four that were real serious contenders. So it, what I've seen is the s downwind supp racing has declined a bit, or a lot. Yeah, for sure. Like all the guys that were downwind, downwind, standup paddling are now supp foiling or just, prone or they're downwind foiling now. So to me the sport that I was interested in has shifted to foiling, so for me, the foil stuff, it was even in 2019, I was foiling like a lot. And for Malachi, I put my, gave myself a bit of a foil band and Marcus was foiling and training for the foiling and He was like, come on, Jimmy, come on the phone. I'm like, nah man, I just gotta, I just gotta tick this off. I gotta win this race on the standup and I just wanna, I wanna get that done. And yeah, I'm stoked I did that because then it wasn't on for 20 20, 20 21, 20 22, and it's just come back in 2023. I could have been I could have been, still wanting to win it on a standup and, not having it mean for a while. They were talking about maybe doing the the foil event on a Saturday and then the paddle and prone event on the Sunday. If they would do that, would you do try to do both or would you just Only on foiling? Oh, I'd focus on foiling, but like the factors on the day before, I'd do both because I'm over there, so I, and I still have all my gear over there. It's all ready to go. The only thing is the extra cost. The moloka to a race is not a cheap event, and an escort boat is super expensive. And hard to find. That's one of the biggest challenges I think like this year especially. Cuz during the pandemic, a lot of the escort boats got out of the business or they, sold their boats or got into fishing or doing other things and then, yeah. So it's actually gonna be really hard to find escort boats for all the competitors I think. Big time. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah that, I'm lucky enough, I've got the same boat captain and Andrew he actually hit me up. He goes, I got a few people asking you doing mochi cuz people are hitting me up to do their escorting on it. Your first, you won it last year so last time we did it. So you are, you're my first guy and he is like, and he goes, and I hope you're foiling . Cause obviously for a boat it's quicker on a foil. Yeah. You need a fast boat to it, . Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Yeah. I signed up to do it on a wing foil this year, so I'm excited to, to be wing foiling. Yes. It's so cool that they did a wing event too. I assume. The wings should win. Like the wings should be the quickest really. But it'd be interesting to see how they go on the final bit. That up win leg could be pretty, there'd be a bit of tacking going on, and if there's no win, yeah. Going into the finish is gonna be tricky. But for you to, for you guys too, going into the wind with a Yeah, it's the same. Yeah, it's, yeah. And the foil board's gonna be super cheeky yeah. But yeah, last year we had that blue water race where jack hole came in like third overall I think the first two finishers were wing foyers and then he came in third, so he beat a lot of wing foyers on the standup foil board, yeah, pretty fast. Cuz you can go straight down wind versus on a wing, you have to angle more, a little bit angle off. Yeah. Yeah that's a big question. Can you go quick enough over further distance to, to beat the sub guys? We're going more direct I guess, but Yeah, I think you said you did the king of the cut with where there was wingers and standup foyers, a king of the cut race or something. Yeah. I haven't done it when there's wingers because it wasn't on last year and the year before. In 2019, winging wasn't a thing, wasn't a, what, people weren't racing. So the last time I did King of the Cup was 2019 and then Covid hit, so we couldn't get over here. And then when everything opened up last year, end of 2022, the King of the Cup wasn't on anymore. Basically all the volunteers, but they couldn't get enough volunteers together. But have you competed in any doman races that have both wingers and standup foil? I don't think I have actually. Yeah. I don't think I have. Yeah. I haven't competed again or rice against. It'll be interesting to see. Yeah. Who's faster . Yeah. You would think, definitely like with the Wing, you do have an unfair advantage and you can probably use a smaller, faster foil, yeah. But yeah, I think it, I think there's Yeah. A lot of, yeah. Yeah. A lot of animals that go into, I've had the Marcus about this, and he did the race when speaking of the cup when there were wingers and foyers and the wingers smoked them, not only because they were from the start, they were up and going. But smaller foils, they're using small foils. They're using big wings, like big sails and yeah. They're just, , they're moving. Yeah. The wings were quicker, even though they were having to go a little bit further distance. They were faster by, by fair bit, actually, five, 10 minutes I think it was. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah. Cool. So yeah, I think that's gonna be super exciting. We're gonna try to interview some more people that are in that race and yeah, it should be fun to be part of it, the first time they're doing wing foiling too, yeah. So actually, have you done much wing foiling or just more focused on down winding and surf foiling? Yeah, more focused on down winning and surf oiling. But I, I've done the, I guess the stuff the wing that I do is mainly around wave riding. So I'm, and not even heirs. So I'm, I do a few, hes, but I'm not a trickster. Like I don't, I'm I'm not as interested in the big jumps and the flips as I am, like the calves and, the re-entries and the cutbacks and that sort of stuff. So to me winging, winging is like poor man's towing, it's like toe falling cuz you can to toe yourself into the wave and then you just drop it in the back end and you're just surfing like you would anyway. So it's And then talk a little bit about I know you've done like upwind on the wing and then deflate and then just go down one with the wing under your arm or something like that. Or put on your back. Yeah. The wings is, talk a little bit about that. It's such an epic tool for that. So in Sydney especially, we get a lot of days where the wind is in winter we get offshore breezes, so it's like howling like 30 knots offshore. And we can go into sort of harbors or bays or river entrances and we can like big river entrance and we can what we do is we wing up wind, like five ks up wind, which is like almost 10 Ks cuz you have to z and zag up wind.  You attacking. And then I'll I, in what a lot of guys were doing was they were going on onto the shore, deflating their wing on a beach, rolling it up, putting the backpack, and then paddling up. And I was like, why are we doing this? Why don't we just deflate it on the water? So I started deflating on the water wrapping up trail on the backpack. It was a bit wet, bit soggy, but it was still doable. . And then I was like why am I sitting down and doing, why don't I just deflate it whilst en foil? So I deflate it whilst en foil and then hold it under your arm until you stop. And then you've got your paddle on your back knee. You pull that out once you're ready. But yeah, and then I was chatting with mate and I'm like cuz it's this run we do it's in a river and basically there's a national park so you can't drive. It's hard. It's like a bit of a, it's like a two or three K hike to get to the beach that you'd start at. . So instead of going there, we actually just start at the finish point and we wing up wind and then we do our pack down, however you wanna do it. And then we'd go like most of the way back to the finish. But you can go, there's two options you need to pull in to this little bay where the car is, where you can go around this headland and there's like, it's just a peninsula, so it's a sand spit and you can go around the other side so you get like an extra three or four kilometers. So I guess two, three miles of down winding and it's just it's like a kilometer. Upwind back to the beach. And so what I was doing was I was de like doing my deflate, like wing up wind deflate at the top of the run, and then I'd wing all the way down to the bottom of the run and I rigged up this soda stream bottle so I could use press a button and it reinflated the wing whilst I was up on fo. So instead of sitting down and pump, I was actually pumping up the wing. Prior to this, I was pumping up the wing of the water. Yeah. And I'd I sort do it that way. But yeah, the soda stream bottle is pretty sick. So you also don't have to carry that big pumper around, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. But I heard someone say that the carbon dioxide is like not good for your bladder or something like that, that they used to do that with kites and it wasn't good for the bladder or something like that. Have you had any problems, like with your bladders or anything like that from the, I've only done it like three or four times. The soda, I use a soda stream bottle and I just rigged that up. So it's just a big, like a big CO2 canister. And yeah, I'm sure it's not great for it, but it was I still pump up on the water a lot of the time because to set up the Soda Stream bottles is a pretty specific thing, whereas I can just grab my pump and a dry bag and I'm good to go. , whereas the soda stream, gotta, you gotta attach it onto the boom and, have the hose. And it was just a cool it was an idea that Matt made of on Grant Perry and I worked on for a little while and yeah he, he's on a, he's on an E four, so he filmed it all. It was a pretty cool little clip. Yeah, it still has a lot of function, but yeah, the biggest thing that we noticed was when you did the co2 the wing itself got really cold. So the CO2 was a really super cold air. And it like sort frosted the now the outside of the. The canopy or the inflatable edge of the stratt. Yeah. The leading edge was like, freezing around the belt, probably especially, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not sure how good it is for the long term . I haven't tested it enough times to know, but I've done it four or five or three or four times and it was fine. Prob actually probably four or five times. It didn't it didn't blow anything up. We tested it on land first because we were worried about that. What's gonna happen here? But yeah, it was sweet. It was sweet. Nice. There's I'm sure there'll be like, there's, I feel like there's a bit of a, there's a bit of a potentially a cool market in that, like if you can cuz winging down wind is epic. Yeah. But it takes a bit of wing management. So like I find it easier to downwind with a paddle than I do with a wing. Cause once I have the wing and I'm like letting go of it and it's just, flagged out, it's behind me. , it's all in front of me, I've got, if I change directions, , there's a bit of technique to either, you either swap hands or you've gotta bring it behind you and drop it down behind you and try to, it's there's a bit of, there's a bit of admin to, to keep the wing out of the way and not yes. To be able to go the same lines. Cuz what I find is when I'm wing it, I'm gonna cut across the wind a lot more than I would when I downwind. Even if I've just got flagged out to go straight down wind, the wing wants to blindfold you, essentially. So that's where it came from. The whole deflate thing. I I love the downwind thing, but, and I winging up wind was the free shuttle, but the downwind part, I was like, man, this wing just doesn't get, doesn't get outta the way and back home I'm using a four or five meter wing most of the time when I'm down winding. It'd be easier with a two or a three obviously. it's even easier for you to stay Flighted. . Yeah. What I've been doing for if you're doing, if you're racing downwind, what you can do is just put the wing up over your head and have it almost level so that if you're going faster than the wind, straight down wind it's just of been neutral over your head, so that works pretty well too, but it's, yeah, but it's not really, your sounds get tired. Yeah. Your arms get tired, right? Yeah, not so much cuz you can't really stay in that po you can do that when you're on a good bump and you go really fast, straight down wind. But then once you of come off the bump and you catch the wind again, so you bring the wind, bring it back down, wind, wind back down and stuff like that. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense for like speed going down wind, because you're like, I was thinking too, like the electric pumps are getting pretty good, like battery powered electric pumps. I wonder if you could set up something like that, but then you have they probably can't get wet, so be hard to make that waterproof. So yeah, I've had so many people hit me up and say, oh, you should try this electric pump. And I'm like, yeah, but electric I'm in the water. Like it's going to get wet. If I fall off all of a sudden that's 30, 40 bucks down the drain and electricity and water is something I don't really wanna be too close to. Yeah. Yeahium battery and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The other, I think even better options, you just get a decent pump. Like electric pumps are great, but like you get good pumps that, like hand pumps instead of the ones we stand on and get hand pumps. Yeah. And you can just pump it up. It doesn't take that long. And a lot of the time I'll just deflate the leading edge and leave the middle strut inflated. So it's just pumping up the leading edge. So it's not the end of the world. And water in a pump is a lot less. It's less worse, it's less bad than water in a electric pump . Yeah. And you can make 'em pretty small to the hand pumps maybe. Yeah. Actually it's cause you definitely don't want something that you have to push against your board or something like that cuz it's like everything's moving around. It's more almost like you want two handles that you can push together or something like that. Yeah. Accordion style pump. That'd be pretty serious. Yeah. Oh, there you go. . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I just think it's all coming. It's all part of the evolution and I think I was probably people think it's a bit, hard to do or whatever, but I promise you any wingers out there who wanna learn a downwind like and downwind like we do on a sap or. it's way easy to learn to daylight your wing than it is to learn to paddle up . I guarantee you. Yeah. There's this guy, Paul, that he wants to do like channel crossings and stuff like that. And like one of the risks is that your paddle breaks, right? So he's thinking as a backup, he's gonna take a wing and a pump with him, so that just paddle breaks or you can't, the, you can, as long as there's wind you can, wing with it, so yeah. I think a better backup plan is the hand paddles. Have you guys seen those? Oh yeah. They just, you can, cause they're much smaller, like a wing and a pump gets pretty heavy. And that's gonna, that's gonna limit your ability to paddle up, which is probably gonna increase the chances of you breaking your paddle Cause the more you're paddling and the more weight you have to paddle. That's the biggest disadvantage of the deflate downwind.  Is that once you wrap it all up and put it in a backpack, The extra weight of the wing, like it's probably maybe five or six kilos. So it's a lot of water weight too, if it's still wet, right? Yeah, it's a lot of water weight and so I've actually done some of my fastest ever like downwind runs when I've had the wing in my backpack because the extra weight, I can just go faster, but it's way harder to get up. Oh, that, that's an interesting point actually. And I wanted to talk about that as well. And cuz Dave Klo also says in the down windows, when he is going fast, he likes a little bit heavier board just for better, more momentum and stability and more. Yeah. And I found that too actually, that sometimes weight is a good thing and lot of people I talk to is no weight is never good. You just wanted the lightest gear possible, you and it totally depends, like in my experience that's not really true. But what, how do you feel about weight in the board and the foil and so on? Like you said, like wearing weight on your back actually helps with going faster. Yeah, no big time. So the only thing is so Dave, for example, if it's only 10 knots, Dave being heavier compared to me will have a harder time getting up than I will if we're on the exact same foil. If Dave gets up and then, so let's change it up. So let's say it's a really windy day and Dave and I are on the same foil, the same setup, exactly the same, but he's heavier. Once we're up on foil, he should be faster. Ju just based on, and this is not taking into account how you read a bump or how you do all that, and you're pumping ability or any of that. But just on the, if you were going in a straight line together then, and you're next to each other on the exact same bump, Dave should be able to go faster than I can in big conditions, but in smaller conditions on the same foil. If he's slightly under foil, I'm just right, then I'm gonna go quicker. So the weight is a big thing and it's a hard thing to plan for because look, you're not gonna, you're not know for mochi, Oahu, the start of the race is generally a lot lighter than it is at the, in the middle. . So if I'm to, if I'm to wait my board for the start of the race, I'm gonna have a harder time to paddle up. But if I can get up with that heavier board, it's gonna be better for me in the middle. . But the other thing with Malachi is you got the off wind at the end. So you, I think for a race like Malachi where there's lots of different conditions, there's definitely an advantage for the lighter guys and lighter equipment, but not in the middle of the channel, just for the beginning and end. Yeah. Because for the middle of the channel, a big guy can probably make up a lot of ground on the guys that are smaller, but they've gotta be able to get up early and then foil as far as they can, as close they can to the finish. So it's interesting, there's a few things going on fo I can't wait to get into this foil racing because I've done a bunch of downwind fall races here in Australia, but mainly against surf skis in ri canoes and a few mates who are learning. I have, the best race I've had has been over here in Western Australia against the all the WA crew and Marcus and then Z Westwood, but there was heaps of seaweed, so it was like, it was who could foil through the seaweed best  and bit of a like, it it was like a obstacle course, but yeah, I'm looking forward to getting outta Hawaii and getting some. Some good rising and good conditions for sure. Should be fun. Yeah. Not too much seaweed in Hawaii, but yeah, sometimes I've noticed like just a little tiny thing that stuck on your foot makes a big difference in your speed, so huge. Yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking the way too, like I remember, back in the windsurf racing days, like slalom racing and stuff guys would wear like weighted jackets, like weighted life jackets so they can hold a bigger w sale basically, yeah. So that's another interesting thing, like yeah, where you wouldn't think that it doesn't really make sense, but when you're using he heavy equipment sometimes it's wow, this is nice, yeah. Anyway, but uh, you've seen the, to the to foil guys do it a bunch too lids on a big weighted heavy board putting lead, lead weights on their boards and stuff like that. Yeah. And that just means they can get away with a Basically going faster with the same foil, because I think especially in the toe falling and stuff, we're just in the, tip of the iceberg. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's gonna be like, basically I think toe oil is gonna be a lot smaller than what they are, so you shouldn't have to weight it up. You should just be able to use a smaller foil. But at the moment, the foils have too much lift, and we've gotta weight our gear up to make them work. So it's, I just think the fo they aren't enough. There aren't enough iterations of it yet.   I think it's similar to also, it's similar kind of to having a longer fuselage. It's less pitch sensitive. So if you have a heavier board, it balances out that pitch sensitivity, yeah. True. Lightboard will just, Harder to control the pitch and the heavier board just has so much momentum that you don't have to make as many adjustments, it's like more comfortable ride in a way, absolutely. Absolutely. But there, I think there's something to it, I, I would say lighter is not always better. That's what some people think, but it's not true. Yeah. I don't, I feel like for what most of us are using, like in, in smaller waves the lighter stuff is epic. Cuz a light set up is gonna be really reactive. . But when you start to get too much power and too much speed and that's when you want the heavy stuff, that's when you wanna dull everything down. Yeah. It's like having a nicer suspension or something, like a smoother, smoother ride or something like that. I don't know. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. All right let's talk a little bit more about equipment, like the foils. What have you learned from riding all these different foils and and what, now you're developing the quote foils, like what, what kind of things are you trying to put together and what, I guess when you're down with foiling, you're always trying to create a foil that's easy to pump up on and then fast and easy to control at the maximum speed or, has a high top end speed. So how do you do that? What's, how do you achieve that compromise? Yeah, so I guess if we talk about the range, like we've got our, like the planned range for co, the planned range for code foils is a race wing, which is obviously gonna be super as high aspect as we can get it because we want to be going, be able to go really slow and really fast. with the one foil, like for a race like mochi, you start in pretty much, no bumps. It's like howling offshore, but it's, there's no fetch in the middle. So at the beginning you need that foil that can paddle up easily, and then in the middle you wanna fall. That can go fast cause you're out in the middle of the ocean. There's a lot of stuff going on. And then at the end of the race, you've got an upwind pump. So like you need a foil that can pretty much do it all. And that's what we see a race wing is, I, it's something that it doesn't necessarily we don't want it to turn really well. Like we prefer to add another, two kilometers on the low end and two kilometers on the top end, rather than have it be able to do really nice roundhouse

Ken Winner, wing foil designer extraordinaire talks about his background as a pro windsurfer and how he became a designer at Duotone and developed the first inflatable handheld wing for foiling.  At first there was little interest in his invention but once a few people tried it, the sport of wing foiling really took off. Transcript of the interview:  Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Thank you for tuning into another episode of the Blue Planet Show, where I interview foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders.  You can watch this show right here on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app. Today's interview is with Ken Winter, the designer at Duotone wing designer extraordinaire. And as always, I ask questions, not just about equipment and technique, but also try to find out more about his background, what inspires him and how he got into water sports. So Ken was really open in this interview, shared a lot of information about wing design, even showed his computer screen where he designs wings. So that's  at the very end of the interview. So you don't want to miss that part. It's really cool if you're into Wing design and wanna know more about the materials and the construction, the design and Ken's philosophy. This is a really good show for all that kind of information. During this interview, I'm gonna play a little bit of footage of Alan Cadiz Wing foiling in Kailua. I got some drone footage of him, which was after this interview, but he's using the 2023 Duotone unit Wing 4.5 meter wing. I'll play some of that in the background. Thank you so much for your time, Ken, and for sharing all the detailed information. So without further ado, here is Ken Winner. Okay. Good morning, Ken. How are you doing today? Good morning. I'm pretty good. All right. It's a little bit of a rainy and windy day here on Oahu. How's the weather on Maui? Same. Same. Yeah. Yep. So have you had super stormy winds the last few days? It's been crazy windy here. Yeah, it's been gusting 45 at times. Do you actually go out in those kind of conditions or do you wait? Yeah. Windy days. Yeah. It's pretty fun. Yeah. So you've been doing what you, what do you do on days like that? You go on a down window or you just go go off? I only do down windows with my wife nowadays. That's her favorite thing. Otherwise I from a friend's house over on Stable Road and Peter actually lives on Stable Road and so we launched there, go out race around a bit, test different wings, hydrofoils. Nice. What kind of equipment were you on in, on those super windy days? Anything from a two to a four. Sometimes we go out pretty overpowered just cause we have something we wanna try and we don't have many choices. Some days we just have to go and do what we can with what we have. We do a lot of prototyping in the four and five meter size. We do a fair amount in the three meter size and then smaller and bigger. We also prototype and test quite a bit, but maybe not as intensely. Nice. Okay. But before we get more into all the equipment and stuff like that, I wanted to get talk a little bit about your background. So tell us a little bit about start in the beginning, like wh how, where you grew up and how you got into water sports and all that kind of stuff. was born a long time ago, 1955, so there's a lot of history there. You don't wanna hear it all. Grew up near Annapolis, Maryland. Did a fair amount of recreational cruising type sailing. My dad owned boats. Built a lot of stuff when I was a kid. Owned a couple boats when I was a teenager. Started windsurfing in 75. How extensive do you want this to be? Started windsurfing in 75, won the world championship in 77. We won again, 80 in 81. We had the right there on Oahu, where you are. We had the World Cup, the PanAm World Cup, which I. Actually, yeah don't worry about making it short. Like we, we got time. So just actually like how did you get into windsurfing? What was your first experience with that? Or what were you doing? Anything other like surfing or water sports before windsurfing? Yeah. No, I've never actually surfed. As I said, I grew up sailing I, when I was a teenager, maybe 17 or 16, I bought a old wooden boat, a little wooden boat, a Bahamas fixed it sailed around, kept it house else. I also bought a shark catamaran sail out bit. So I was into sailing and I, I saw an ad for a windsurfer and thought that would be a good thing for me to try. So wind, Also about the same time bought a hang glider. So I taught myself to hang glide and but I really enjoyed the windsurfing more so sold everything else and just focused on windsurfing. So that you were around 20 years old? Yeah. About 20. Yeah. Did you you have any like formal education or did you go like straight into wind surfing? Yeah, it's funny, I was gonna University of Maryland when I started windsurf, and I might have stuck with that, but I started windsurf and thinking, oh, I can go to college little, a little time windsurfing. And and then when I'm ready to quit, I can go back to school. But I never did actually go back to school, kept wind surfing. For the next forever , 23 years, but ba So basically you're self-taught, like all the knowledge you have on with computers and aerodynamics or, all that is basically from experience and self-taught kind of thing or? Yeah, I do a lot of reading. I remember in, sometime in the early eighties Barry Spanner, I think got a book. The title was The Aerodynamics of Sailing. And I, I heard him make a comment about it, so I got it and I read from cover to cover several times and really absorbed, I think the lessons of that. And did a lot of other reading after that. But that was sort my foundation for learning about the technical side of sailing. , nowadays, of course, it's super easy to get a lot of information online, really good information. So unless you're pursuing a career like attorney or doctor or degreed engineer or PhD scientist, you don't need formal education as much as you used to. If you need it at all, I don't know. But yeah, I think as long as you're a lifelong learner, you can pretty much teach yourself almost anything. . Yeah. Okay. Yeah, a lot of things, for sure. Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some screen sharing here from the windsurfing Hall of Fame. There's little bit of information about you online here. So in the, so you started windsurfing in 1975. That's, this was the day, days when they, the booms were still made out of wood and so on, right? Talk a little bit about your first first wind windsurfing set up bought a used board for 300 bucks and went out, taught myself to use it, and just became hooked like most people. Did it every chance I had. And at first all I focused on was trying to improve my skills. That was hundred percent of my effort. But then gradually over time, I got more interested in improving the equipment. So over time I did some things like. Built my own boards and built my own rigs, masks spoons. Yeah. And you start, you started winning a lot of races, so you were very focused on the com racing side of windsurfing or also I guess freestyle as well, right? Yeah. So I won the freestyle world two or three times, and that was back, it was a much simpler affair than it's now. Of course, the guys who do freestyle nowadays circles around all of us who did freestyle back then. yeah. Around. But you gotta start somewhere in every sport. And so that, that's a picture of Robbie and Jurgen in me at the pan, the Panta actually which was right there on Wahoo. Over in Kai. Yeah. And you were able to beat Robbie, I guess at that point. Still, and you have several world world titles right? In Windsurf racing. Yeah. Robbie and I were rivals to some extent, but he was younger and when he got to be when he achieved his full adult strength, he was extremely hard. I started when I was 20. He started when he was nine. And it's surprise that he dominated the sport so much for so many years. He's a amazing athlete and really great guy. Good entrepreneurs, got a great business. And and we're still rivals. , it's been a good, it's been a good 40 some years. . And then you started build, you said you started building your own boards and making smaller and smaller boards, right? Yeah. So I, excuse me. Yeah I built a a nine foot board. Actually prior to that I had a board shaped for me and glass, and that was a board I would say. I basically invented carving, jives, cause everybody had boards back then. I had a round tail board, which carve through my, instead of skid through them. And basically from that point on, I focused a lot on trying to improve my equipment. I  you're showing a picture of the Transatlantic Windsurf race, which was a pretty funny. That was in about 98, I think. But this has gotta be pretty boring for anybody watching. People are interested in what's happening now. Yeah. No, I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I don't think any, what he's gonna find is boring at all, but, , yeah, just yeah. And then I guess you yeah, I tell us a little bit about how you got into the Wing, wing des, or were you designing w windsurfing sales for duo to before kites, or like how, or, and then, yeah. Just tell us a little bit about how you got Yeah. So I went surfed intensely for three years. I guess in 97, I think I won the US Racing Championships. And then just shortly after that I tried kiting for the first time. And basically after I tried kiting for the first time, I I sold on my windsurfing gear and got straight into kiting. My, my first kite experience was with Don Monague right off Stable Road on Maui. He was out kiting. I was out windsurfing and I told him I wanted to try that, so he handed me his control bar and the leashed, his board to my ankle, and he told me how to secure the kite. And I, so I kited back and forth down to Kaha for the next half hour. And so that was my, that's how I got hooked on kiting. And so from the very first session, you were able to stay upwind and everything and no, I didn't stay upwind. I ended up down at Kaha, so starting at camp one, ending up at Kaha. Oh, okay. And yeah and when, not long after that, I spent a week on Maui hiding every day. And and then a few months after that I did some, I did a how kite video. Cause there were no schools, hardly anybody knew how to learn. So I did some videos. Robbie was saying needed somehow to kite videos. So took the opportunity to do that. We sold about 30,000 videos and then of course, schools came along and the internet came along. So that was, there's, you don't need that kinda stuff anymore. It's all online. Yeah. Oh, so you had a, like a VHS tape on how to kite and sold it like through magazines and stuff like that. But I actually, I used the Nash distributor network to the dealer network to sell boxes of videos to dealers who would then them, to 'em, to customers. And I had a website so I could retail videos directly to the customers. And we actually did a total of three howto videos over a couple years time. And then I helped convince boards and more, which is the parent company of Duotone and fanatic to get into kite boarding kit, making kites. . And so that was about the year 2000. And we tried to hire people to do the job of designing kites, but there were so few kit designers at the time that I ended up taking it on. So I had learning design kit weeks and in China working 16 hours a day learning how to use computer aid design software, CAD software, and then pumping up existing kites and trying to figure out the geometry and trying to figure out how to do that on the Ultimately it worked, so we ended up with a decent and started growing the company from that point. Okay. So boards and more at that time, they had Brand was fanatic and or what were their brands that they were run? It, I'm just gonna say Boards and More is the parent company of the, the parent company that I work for now. , which is we produce Duotone kites and Fanatic windsurfing gear and kites surfing and surfing gear and, sub foiling gear. Boards and More is the company I've been working for the last 22 years. And right now what is your official role at Duotone? I know, I just wanted to say I've been waiting such a long time to get you on the show because you're always so busy. You said you have to, come up with a whole new line of wings and kites and everything, so you were too busy to meet with me. But Yeah, tell me a little bit about like your job, like your role and how you were able to make time today to come here, . Yeah. Yeah, great question. I I tend to overcom commit and try to do more things than I can reasonably do. So years I was designing kites, but I also decided to start designing hydrofoils and that turned into a lot of work. And then I started designing wings and that turned into more work. So I was to foil design work off on some very capable guys that we in Mauritius and Germany. And then more recently I've been able to push the kite design work off on Sky now. Sky's been working with me for 18 years. We've both been learning a lot about kite design and in the last year, so I've been helping him master the software that we use for kit design. And so now he's doing the kite design. And I would say that he's for sure one of the most experienced and capable designers in the world, even though he hasn't been the lead on kite design until recently, but he's now and he's doing a great job. He's making some really great improvements. So having a good teacher, right? Hope . So having so now I'm just focused on maintenance, so that, like your job basically at duo tone right now is wing designer? Yeah. I'm focused on wing design now, and we have two main wing models the unit has handled, boom. And. The unit is more focused on wave riding and down winding. The slick is more free ride and freestyle. Unit has a little bit more Wingspan Slick has a little less the okay. So before we go into the current gear let's go back to when you first started winging and like how you came up with The Wing. I interviewed mark Rappa Horse and Alan Ez as well on the show. And they both talked about how, you guys used to go out downwind together with the standup paddle foil boards and and then, when one day you showed up with the wing. So can you talk a little bit about. Like how you first came up with the wing and the inflatable wing design and so on. Yeah, I was trying to downwind hydrofoil with these guys, and I wasn't doing it that well, was having great success and I was getting a sore shoulder. So I was trying to figure out how could I do downwind hydrofoiling and not get a shoulder? And I, by chance, I saw a video of Flash Austin with his homemade handheld wing that he was using on a hydrofoil at Kaha. And I thought eight years before I had designed some inflatable handheld wings for suffering. Not with a hydro, but just for, and so I thought I wonder if something like that would work. It fits my skillset because I do inflatable adult toys. And so I, I went home, got on the computer, designed crude. Another crude, handheld, inflatable wing. So those designs are you sent me an email with some pictures. Is that from that time when you designed your first wings? Yeah. That, that blue and black wing was my first effort to do a handheld inflatable wing. My idea was to use it on aboard, and that was back in two 10 Sky and I tried it. So this one was the one the original one that you made for for basically wind windsurfing on or on a regular windsurf board? Well, a sub board, yeah. Board. Ok. Yeah. And so it was very similar to what we have today, actually, you yeah. It has some similarities. Yeah. And then you would, hold one hand would go here on one hand here. Yeah, that's how it was at first. Okay. And I tried another one a month or two later and Sky and I didn't, we tried and we didn't really think it was that much fun. Another guy who designs for us took the idea and made a inflatable rig. We call it the I rig, which was pretty nice for kids, very low impact. So I remember that. So in that picture of six wings, you can see the first two in two 10, 2011. And then in 2018, I tried something. I just yeah, just very quickly threw something together. I modified an existing neo design and like a Neo's, one of our kites. And sent that off to the factory. And then when I took it to the beach and stepped on the board and sailed away, it popped up. I popped up on the foil immediately and sailed right out to the reef. Turning around, I fell and I had trouble getting going again. But basically I considered that a success and I figured that would allow me to do down windows without stressing my shoulders. I kept building prototypes after that sky went, this was June of 2018. Sky went to a dealer meeting in there and demonstrated it for everybody. Everybody there and nobody was interested. And then we took it to the SI show in August and nobody was interested. But then finally in November, people started getting interested. I got our ceo Alber. He's a, he used to be a snowboarder on the German national team, so hes really good. And he had thought it looked too complicated and difficult, but then when he tried it, he discovered that it's not too complicated and difficult. Maybe we make some of these and people will buy 'em. So at that point we decided we were gonna go into production with wings, and I think some other brands decided at that point. Interesting concept. Of your of your wife, and then you also sent me this little video. So she was the fir you said probably the first woman to wing Foil. Is that, Yeah. Sky's wife, Christine and Julie both tried it out. I think right around Christmas time of 2018. And then after that Julie got very interested in it. And I took her out at KEG quite a few times, and I think this was her first time on the North Shore , and she was a little excited by the size of the swell . So nowadays she, she really enjoys doing downs from to the harbor and she can do it in about 35 minutes if she's in a hurry. And it's her favorite sport. Cool. Yeah. And then this was your first wing design? The foil wing. And I actually got one of those. I've been, I was waiting for a long time and then finally got the wing and I think it was a three meter, the first one I got. And it was yeah, it was super cool because same as you were, we were trying to do the foil doman runs and Really kind. It's really hard actually. But talk a little bit about this first wing design and because it had a boom and no strut and then it had full battens and so on. So talk a little bit about the swing. Your first Yeah. Starting from scratch, we had no, I had no idea really what to do with it. We, we tried differentl angles and different patterns. I put bats in it because that reduces the fluttering by quite a bit. Nowadays we don't have belong bats because we've found other ways to reduce the flutter. Some of us have a lot of brands go ahead and continue making wing wings with a lot of flutter, but I don't really care for that. The boom I made my first few wings with handles as you saw in the photo, and I really hated the handles. Then I went to a kind of a strap on rigid handle. And then after that I thought why should I have a strut and a boom or strut and a handle and I can just have this one boom or long tube and potentially save money and hassle. So that was the reasoning there, but, It turns out the strut is really nice for stabilizing draft. And so we went back to using a strut sometime later. Yeah. Like I know the, that first wing, it was it did that TikTok thing right? When you held it by the front handle it, it didn't really behave very well. Just lefting behind you. It didn't yeah. So was that, I guess part of the reason for that was because it didn't have that strut to of stabilize it. Yeah. I think the strut kinda acts like a ruter in some respects helped stabilize the it's really hard to know what's gonna be important to people when you're starting with something new. One of the, one of the things I have to do is I have. I can't just pay attention to the things I like to do. I have to pay attention to what other people like to do. At first, to me, the idea of holding the wing by the front handle I just never did it. I would hold it by the boom. So never really noticed that instability when I was using it myself. Yeah, but basically, yeah, that's what, how when I used it on a wave, I would just hold the front of the boom and it worked fine. But but then, yeah, I guess some of the other wings were really stable, just holding it in the front handle and you'd be able to surf with it, just holding the front handle, which, which then I guess so yeah. So another thing that's kinda interesting is if you wanting, that will be pretty stable when you're just on the, we experimented with. And the thing we found is that if I let the air out of my wing and let it get a little bit floppy, take it down to three or four psi, it will fly on the leash. Really stable. But then if I pump it back up to eight psi and I haven't really tight 12 canopy, which is something I like, then it's no longer really stable on the leash. So far we kinda have to make the choice. Do we wanna, do we want our wing more floppy and therefore it'll fly on the, or do we want our wing more stable? Which it's less stable on the leash, but it's more stable otherwise. And so basic, so that's basically why you have those two different wings. One is the unit for more that's more, I guess more stable being on supplying by itself. And then the unit is more, has more of a profile. And is that kind of the thought behind it? We go for a lot of canopy tension on both models of wings. We're not gonna compromise on canopy tension cause it gives, it helps give lift to the, when it's, and it improves power when you're pumping. It improves de power and stability when you're overpowered. So we're not gonna compromise on canopy tension but the difference, one of the differences between the slick and the unit is the unit has more sleep. In the leading edge, and that helps improve the stability. While it's, if you're surfing a wave and holding it by the front handle, the fact that it has more sweep than the slick makes it a little more stable in that respect than the slick. But then the downside is you have more wingspan, so it's easier to catch a wing tip, by sweep. You're saying like the leading edge in the front is a little bit more like this versus that kind of thing? Or, but what do you mean by sweep? Sweep is the you know how some airplanes, like a fighter jet will have wings that are swept back.  And some wings, like a sail plane will have wings that are not swept back. . So sleep is that back angle in the leading edge. Understood. Okay. And DL is the up angle in the leading edge. So we've done quite a bit with different DL patterns and some things I thought would be better weren't. So I thought a progressive DL would be more stable than a linear dl. And a linear DL is actually more stable. So the new unit has a very linear DL shape and uhno. Another thing that's kinda interesting is some wings have very little dl and the advantage of that is when the wing is lying flat on the water, it's less likely to flip over. The disadvantage of that is it's hard to have a, with a deep canopy and with a lot of canopy tension when you have little, so again we're giving up the fact that. . Our wings when they're lying belly down on the water, are more likely to flip over than somebody else's mic. But on the other hand, we have the ability to put in more depth while maintaining really good canopy tension cause we have more behavioral. So would you say there's a downside to having more canopy tension? Like to, to me it seems like the more tension you have, the, the better the profile works, but I guess like sometimes on a wave or whatever, when you're luing it, it has a little bit more drag, right? Is that, or like what's your experience with a tension? The canopy tension gives you less drag if you have, if more canopy tension gives you less drag when you're, but the wing is more stable while if it has A bit less canopy tension. If I let some air pressure out my wing and make it have less canopy tension, it'll flutter more. And that makes it drier and sad to say it makes it more stable. Yeah. Cause it basically when it doesn't have a lot of attention, it can just completely flatten out and just flutter flat. Versus attention has, it still has that profile. Yeah. So thet thing you can have is a wing that flaps and flutters and loves, but that drag impart a certain amount of stability. I see. This is one of those things where you, it's hard. It's hard to get, it's hard to get everything you want. Divorce, trade offs. Okay. So maybe talk a little bit about things you've tried early on that were that ended up on the trash tape and versus, like things that, I guess like the full battens, you said in the beginning you tried them or used them to reduce the flutter, but I remember those battens used to break really easily too in the waves, right? So the, they're thin battens. Yeah. So early on I never really even imagined I would be using a wing in the waves, which is why I didn't mind putting bats in . They don't, they're not really compatible that way. It's, I did make a three strut wing early on. My, my fourth wing in 2005th wing in 2018 was a three stru wing. And it was, perceptively heavier. So I didn't make any more three str wings for a while. So by, sorry, by three struts you mean three inflatable struts? Like this kind of Yeah. So the blue one? Yeah. The 3.0 from July of two 18. Yeah. Yeah. I tried that and it was, not a great wing and a little on the heavy side. So I decided I was gonna try to stick with just one strut, and then actually went to a home after that.  For the simplicity and the low cost and so forth. So the three stru is something I abandoned early on, but it does have potential advantages. So we've been doing more work with that. F1 has a nice three wing. It has its pros and cons, but there are people who like it. And one of the reasons is the fact that you have strut takes away the corner, the the back corner at the tip of a wing, and that's the place people drag most often when they're trying to get going. Getting rid that, I'm sorry, screen. Share that again. So what you're saying, like this corner is what drags in the water when you're to get foiling, right? Yeah. And so a certain arrangement of three strut, I certain three strut geometry will get rid of that corner. . So I think F1 actually has like a patent a patent or a patent pending for that third strut. But it looks like you were the first one to develop that. So how does that work? They They, if they came to contesting it with us, I don't think they could win. But I don't think either of us or them are interested in having a fight. So I don't think it'll be a problem for us. So basically when, I know Duotone is also has a, I think you, I know you have a patent for the hand, the rigid handles on the unit. Are there any other patents that you're, you've gotten or applied for and Yeah, we've, and the question is like, why didn't you apply for a patent for the inflatable wings in the first place? Or did you? Because I think in part you have to do it pretty quickly and it can't really be in the public domain. So these wings that I made in 2000 10, 2 11 From what I understand is they were out there in the public domain and they were, they happened many years before. And so just trying to patent an inflatable wing I don't think that was an option. But we've tried to, we've applied for patents on various aspects of the inflatable wing design as, things related to the DL and boom. And trying to think, what can I mention? What can I not, there's some things we do that we don't even talk about because some people. Aren't aware and we don't wanna give them ideas. Yeah, you don't wanna give away your secret sauce. So I understand. Not too, it's not too soon. Yeah. . Yeah. Okay. So actually I had a question from a friend, my friend Steve. He was asking, have you ch or about basically, on windsurf sales where the can doer and stuff, they have a left tube to improve the laminar flow on the bottom side of the, have you tried that? Have you tried playing with that and or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that, that's a popular topic. It came up in in connection with kite design years ago, and I think when I was picking up. The first kite that I actually owned from Don Monague, he was talking about that very idea and doing it in connection with kites. And Don Monague has done amazing amount of work along those lines in connection with kites. And if you were to see PDFs, he put all the things you tried, you would be astonished. Don would be a really interesting guy for you to talk to on this. Don Monague. Okay. Yeah. . Yeah, he was the kit designer for Nash 20 years ago, or 23 years ago. , he's moved on to a lot of really interesting things. But he was talking about it then he worked with it then, and it, it's never really worked for kites for a variety of reasons. There's weight, there's the tendency for. Water to get in and weigh down the kite. Complexity, cost and the actual benefit is hard to find. I've also tried to do elliptical, leading edges in kites and where I have two leading edges side by side. Kinda two bladders next to each other kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Trying to thin out the shape of the wing and make it stiffer. And that, that's been really hard to make it work. There are people who, tried this stuff and they, know, somebody's probably gonna succeed at some point someday, but so far hasn't One of the problems with double surface on a wing is that the lower surface tends to keep the flow attached, and that attached flow sucks the second surface down. And actually tends to suck the whole wing down. So we spent a lot of time making sure our wings always lift. If you're locking the wing, it lifts if it, if you get hit by a lifts every, all the time, our wings are lifting. If you add that second surface, boom, your lift goes away. The flow remains attached on the bottom of the wing.  As it passes, the leading edge sucks the lower surface down and sucks the whole wing down with it. And this is something I've actually experimented with and tried and observed, so I'm not just speculating here. Interesting. Again, I'm not saying it'll never work, but it's not a slam dunk. It's not an obvious, easy thing to do.  And the benefits aren't obvious either, so Yeah. And it's more weight, it's more cost. So we and with wings in particular, we have to worry about weight. Wind surfers don't worry about weight nearly as much as we do apparently. Tis are, you have to hold it, hold that thing up in, in your hand, and light wind especially then the weight really makes a difference. It does. Yeah, for sure. What about rigid wings? I know people have been making rigid wings for on the ice and stuff like that, but and forever, have you played around with that or have you tested rigid wings? Yeah. Yeah. I saw early on I'd like to have a rigid wing that opened up like an umbrella. . And I actually have tried some rigid and hybrid prototype. But the problem you run into there is you lose one of the greatest attractions of wings, inflatable wings, which is the simplicity in the fact that you just blow 'em up and go and when you have rigid components, elements. You make a more complex, harder to rig up. They're less robust because something like a carbon fiber tube can break pretty easily, especially in the waves.  And I question whether a lot of people would want give up the simplicity and the robustness of inflatable in order speed or higher or whatever tructure might give you. That's priority for Right. Would working on that for kids and people who aren't fanatical wingers, people who wanna get into it, but aren't gonna be doing it every day, I would, I'm interested in making it better for families rather than, Better for Kailin . Yeah. But obviously you're also very interested in going fast and testing. I know ANCA has told me that you guys go out and race each other and see what's faster and test equipment and that's, he told me about the Mike's lab foil that he let you know, you let him try your foil and then he got one himself and I just got one recently. So those are, yeah, just having a fast foil makes a big difference that alone, right? I do going fast up to a point about the Mike's slab, what happened was during the pandemic we had a shortage of fanatic hydrofoils. We weren't getting the latest stuff. We weren't even able to get anything out China for a while. My wife is pretty into getting the latest stuff. So she ordered Mike's lab hydrofoil and she got it and she actually had a hard time with it, so I started using it. So I used it a fair amount. But she went to an 1100 Mike's Slab and that worked really well for her. Then she moved to 800, which worked well for her. Then she went to a and that worked well for her, and now she's, now, she now, I dunno she's in the five 40 to 800 range nowadays, depending on what she wants to and so through all that I've been using her hydros as well. But I also use, fanatic has some new stuff that I also use. Peter Slate, who I sail with a lot, is using fanatics and he's going really fast with, he's hard to keep up with. And Alan, of course is very hard to keep up with too. Yeah. And I, sorry, should, when we're talking about fast and I should say don't try to go faster race, because I think that but I'm not sure how to put this. I think that racing with slow equipment is actually more interesting than racing with fast equipment. In the old days of windsurfing, we raced with really slow boards. Didn't matter that we were going slow. Cause the important thing was trying to use the wind and the waves and whatever we found out there to go a little bit faster or to take a slightly shorter course than the next person. So I don't of speed as requisite on the, and. just getting on the water and racing with the stuff you have is pretty interesting. . Yeah, I that's I guess the beauty of one design racing where everybody uses the same equipment and it's not an arms race and it's more about this, your skill and sta strategy and so on, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think of it as the most social form of winging on the water because you're actually doing something with other people. And it's a very sort of a responsive thing where you do one thing and somebody will do another thing in response. So you're, there's interaction that you don't have pretty much any other time, except when you're wanting people to stay outta your way on wave, which is different kinda interaction. But getting back to the winging that Alan or Peter and I do if we're racing around side by side, Trying to go faster. What the main thing I'm doing is I'm trying to assess the performance of the wing. I'm trying to, the power delivery, I'm trying to, is the power consistent hit? Does easy to deal with gust? Is it difficult to deal with the gust when a gust hits, do I accelerate or do I just slow down because there's so much drag? And then, we'll go upwind and we'll go downwind. And if we're going downwind, we can, whether we can deeper with one wing rather than another. This all translate into performance that even someone who's not racing is gonna appreciate. And you can notice subtle differences between wings when you're side by side with somebody of equal ability. But you can't notice if you're just out there cruising by yourself. So that, that, I think that's a real valuable thing for us. But the other thing we do is we've got Finn and Jeffrey Spencer out there on our wings. They test every prototype that comes in. They write our little report and every wing that that comes in, they go out, they loop 'em and spin 'em and race around with them. Do everything that anybody does with them and evaluate them in very thorough, in a very thorough manner, I think. Yeah. I think originally they used to ride for what's it called? They used to write for Slingshot. Slingshot, yeah. So how long have they been writing for Duotone? The last few months. Okay. Yeah, they're amazing wingers. Talk a little bit about the r and d process. I guess it's like you can't really make too many changes at once yet, right? You have to change one, one variable at a time, and then like how many prototypes go into like how many prototypes do you have to make to come up with next year's wing, kind of thing. I'm just curious about that. Yeah, so for the 22 4 meter unit i, I design I name every prototype with a, from the alphabet. So I got down to Q on that one. I'm not sure how many. That's maybe 20 or so. And each one is one that you actually made. Is it just a, do they all make it to the, to be actually samples, or those are all actual samples that you made or that's a good question. I might starting design and try five different variations on my computer. , but they'll all be the same letter. That might be, it might be, okay. Four B dash one or four B dash two and I'll, okay. I'll look at all those and then I'll decide which one I wanna try and in person. And I'll send the, I'll generate patterns. Send the patterns to the factory. The factory, ship it out a week later, or five days later. And then we'll test it. But, I can go through dozens and dozens of prototypes before we finalize a line like, The unit from size two to size 6.5, which is 10 sizes. And we do build and test every size before we put any big into production. Yeah. But I guess on Maui, like basically the four meter is your, like that's the one you start with and then once you have a good four meter, then you start working on the other sizes. Is that kind of how you do it or? Usually I'll do a four or a five in a lot of iterations. I'll also do some sixes. I'll also do threes. I did quite a few threes on the latest slick design because it can be hard to get a three meter working really well. So we , we made six or seven threes before we felt like we were in the right ballpark with with the slick. Yeah, because you can't really use the same design and just make it bigger and smaller because obviously the bigger wings the, one of the issues is that they have too much wingspan, so you have to make 'em kind of lower aspect and then, but the smaller wings, it's not, the wingspan isn't so much of an issue. So can you talk a little bit about that? Like the differences be from your bigger swing to your smallest w in the same lineup, or is that Yeah, that's exactly right. The wingspan, the aspect ratio can be a little bit higher in the smaller wings. With the bigger wings, we haven't really gone over seven and we haven't adjusted the aspect ratio that much up to there. But in the future we'll probably have a seven and an eight with a little bit lower aspect ratio. Another thing you can't scale exactly is. Pretty much everything. You can't scale. Exactly. You have to make adjustments with everything. So if you take a five meter that you like and you wanna go smaller, you actually as a percentage have to go bigger with diameter of the leading edge. And because if you were to scale those down exactly to a, like a three meter, the leading edge wouldn't be big enough in diameter to get the stiffness you want. And then it goes small wing. You really want a stiff leading edge. Cuz otherwise when you're winging and gusty wind, it'll just bend. Yeah. And that, let's talk a little bit about that, the leading edge diameter, like the what you learned about that from all your designing and where, what are your thoughts on that and also the different materials. I know you're doing the unit D-lab with the a Lula fabric and stuff like that, and can you make the diameter thinner with the different fabric if you have more pressure and so on. Just go talk a little bit about that. Yeah. At first of course I was trying a lot of different diameters to see what seemed to work OK at my weight. And one of, one of the issues we have is people of all different weights are doing the sport. And we have to optimize around the average weight of the average writer wrap. So why are you showing that? Oh, I just wanted to bring up some of the wings and the different I was gonna show the aula wings and stuff like that. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Distract you there. Yeah. So leading edge diameter is a huge topic and most of us who test are in the one 40 to one 90 weight range. So we tend to optimize for that weight range. And a four meter wing has a diameter of about 10 inches at the center. And at eight psi or eight and nine psi, that seems to enough, we've. Tried going smaller diameter. When we go to our ULA wings or glab wings are made outta right now and is great cause it's very light. It's very, and you would think that since it's so you could go smaller in diameter, but after making quite a few prototypes with smaller leading edge we see both advantages and disadvantages. So you can have a little less drag if you're going up wind or if you're in a lot of wind, you get less drag with a smaller leading edge. But if you lose a little bit of air pressure, then you have a softer leading edge. And the smaller, the leading edge, the more sensitive it's to small losses and air pressure. So with our DLA wings, our Lulu wings, we've decided to just keep the diameter about the same. And anybody that wants a little bit softer leading edge can run a little air out. And then bigger riders, the 200 pounders or 210 pound riders will have something that's fully stiff enough to handle their weight. That's one of the tradeoffs we've made with leading edge diameter. Another thing, so basically you found that you can't really even though the all Lula can handle more pressure, you can't really reduce the the leading edge diameter by much? Not yet. We can. It's just when we do it, we find that we're not happy with the tradeoffs. . And so we're leaning toward being conservative. We won't, we don't want. We don't want people to have unreasonable we don't want their expectations to be stymied. Yeah we're getting the best all around performance by keeping the leading edge diameter pretty substantial. Recently, for example, we made two identical slick prototypes. One with standard leading edge diameter. One with maybe a not quite a 2% drop up a about a two centimeter reduction from about 10 inches to a little over nine inches. And the smaller leading edge diameter had advantages as we expected. If we were going up wind and a lot of wind, the guy on the smaller levy edge had a, had an advantage. But overall it had a little less power, little less grunt. And if we lost a little bit of air pressure, it had a little less stiffness. And we felt like those were big enough problems to keep us away from that. Okay. So can you talk a little, sorry, go ahead. Another thing we did related to leading edge stiffness is we put a two 30 gram Dacron in the center. That white panel, those white panels in the center are a heavier, stiffer Dacron. So we put those in a place where there's a lot of stress on the leading edge and both in terms of point loading where the strut attaches and that leading edge handle attaches and the leash touches. And it's also a point where there's a lot of bending load. So that helps make our leading edge differ. I know a lot of brands will double up on their clock there. , which we did at one point, but we really prefer the single layer of two 30 gram Dacron. It's very robust. Interesting. Can you explain like how, why you recommend different pressures for, depending on the size of the wing, like I, I see you're the 2.0, you're recommending 12 psi and then for the 5.5 7.5 and kind of in between. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. The load on the seams, first I should say the closing sea of a leading edge has the most load on it. Of all the seams, it has twice the load on it. Segment, the inter segment seems are the ones between panels of, so we do a lot of testing to try and maximize the strength of our closing. But one thing about closing seams is the load on the closing sea is related to, it's proportional to the pressure times the diameter. So if you have a small diameter, you can have higher pressure without overloading the closing sea. But if you have a big diameter, have to have lower pressure to avoid overloading the closing scene. And think every, everybody understands this in the business. They're all recommending higher pressure for small and lower pressure for big, and it's all related to how much load the closing can handle without breaking. I. I see. Okay. Do you our standard Dacron construction can handle 15 or 18 PSI in a four meter size before it breaks. And I've, I. Done test tubes. I do a lot of test tubes where we test the strength of seam and I've done test tubes where I've taken it up to five psi in the standard diameter for four meter before its, so we do actually quite a bit of lab testing and bench testing on things like strength and cloth strength. So the difference between the unit and the D-lab unit is basically just the material of the leading edge and the str. Is that correct? Otherwise? Yeah, that's correct. Another difference is that the materials stretch a little differently and they require different seam construction. So I can't use the same patterns for the D-lab that I use for the unit. Customize the patterns for the D-lab wings.  To make adjustments to allow for a different, not just different stretch, but also different shrinkage because different scene construction will take up more cloth. know, One scene construction might take up X amount and the other scene construction will take up 1.5 x amount. So I have to make those adjustments in the patterns. And then I've noticed let's talk a little bit about the flutter in, in wings. I noticed looks like the unit has like this little tiny Batten thing versus the D-lab doesn't have that. Is that what's the reason for that? No. The D-lab has it. They just didn't put it in the graphic. Okay. They both have it. But that's one thing I noticed, like the first generation wings, they would get really baggy quickly or after a few months of using them, they would get all bagged out and and you would lose a lot of performance and there would be a lot of flutter in the, in especially in the trailing edge. So how did you, do you eliminate that? Or how are you able to get away without battens in the trailing edge and avoid fluter stuff like that? About a year and a half ago we decided we were gonna attack that problem and we built some wings with different materials stronger rip stop materials for the canopy, and we sent 'em out to team writers in schools around the world and got feedback on how durable the different materials were. And so the material we use in the canopy, the white material in the canopy of the, no, not that one. That, so that one has standard kite rip stop, which is 50 gram rip stop, which is pretty good, especially if you get this panel alignments right. And you get the warp orientation. But then the wing, you're showing now the 2023 D-lab which I think is coming up tomorrow. Oh wow. That has our, what we're calling mod three for modules, three ripstop material in the canopy. So the white material in that canopy has three times the bias stretch resistance of the standard kite style. Rip stop and. That makes it not only more resistant to things like rips when you drop it on your hydrofoil, but really makes it more durable and a higher performance material. It makes our standard unit feel more like a D unit because it's more solid and when you're pumping it, you get better response. It's not a spongy response, it's a, it's more rigid response when you hit a gust. The draft is really super stable. So all around it's a big improvement. There's a small weight penalty of course. But we've, we did some testing where we built three nearly identical six meter wings and we put different amounts of this mod three material in the canopy of each one. So they would in weight by bit. And we founded the canopy with the most, with the largest amount of this material in it was far and away the best performers. So we decided to put in all of our wings for 2020 canopy. So that, so basically that combats that bagginess after, after using it for a while. That doesn't stretch as much, basically. Exactly. Yeah. I just noticed that. Okay. Yeah. So this is the traditional canopy, the mod three. You just have less stretch and especially in the d diagonal direction, right? Yes, exactly. So I just noticed that for the unit. You recommend, the D-lab wings, you recommend a lower pressure than the regular unit wings. Why? Why is that? You get more stiffness for the pressure, know, whatever you're given pressure is. The D-lab gives you more stiffness, but the thing about all is it's incredibly strong and stiff. It's incredibly strong everywhere except where you put a hole in it. So if we have to sew these things together so they have thousands of holes in them, and we do a lot of reinforcement on the seams with materials that are not alu. , but our testing shows us that these are the numbers we should be using for inflation to be safe. And so even though you might pump a five meter to seven instead of eight, it's gonna be stiffer at seven than Aron wing at eight. Okay. So you, you just said, so tomorrow you're gonna release the new the 2023 wings. I think on your website, this is still your 2022 model, right? So what is the no that DLA you're pointing at is the 2020. Oh, I'm wrong. It's the 2022. You're right. It's got the windows for 2022. So what has changed? I think I've seen Alan  with some wings that have two windows here. Is that like one of the ways you can tell, or? Yeah. So the new units. Have windows that are more like the current slick, the 2022 Slick has four windows, not just two of them. Ok. And that improved our, that improves the visibility quite a bit. So talk a little bit about the seam orientation. Because it seems like the seams have a little bit more they don't stretch as much as the fabric, right? So is that, is that you're trying to use the seams to add more basically more tension to the canopy? Is that what your thought is on that or? What I'm doing there is I'm trying with the wing design in general, I'm trying to get more tension from tip to tip across the canopy. And in order to deal with that tension, I'm, or I'm making the thread orientation run tip to tip. So it's more about getting the thread orientation. The aligned with the loads that I'm trying to put in the, and that's actually evolved a bit. Those same angles have changed for 2023. And I surprised there's no photo anywhere of the 2020 threes. They've been out for a while now. . So the Duotone Sports website doesn't have the New Wings. Yeah, I dunno. But yeah, so talk a little bit about the changes that you did make in the wings from 22 to 23 other, I guess the windows, the seams, but what else has changed? Yeah the cloth is a huge thing. It's a really big thing. And up to now, the leading edge materials have lasted longer than the can materials, and you really want everything to break all at once, ideally. So we change the windows, we change the, we increase the depth and the power of the wing a bit. The profile depth is greater. So we are getting more power, but the canopy cloth itself also improves the top end, so we have more wind range overall. We we refined the tip angles, tip angles, tip twist has a lot of influence on wing performance. And so we've been, we've gone through a lot of prototypes trying to find the tip angles that are best. So I'd say we have an improvement in overall power delivery in part cause we've got better control over tip twist. Trying to think what else we've done is I know I'm forgetting something. So the, this wing that Alan Kiddas is using is probably the 23 right? As that's probably A2 three prototype. Correct. That's one of our prototypes where we were trying different canopy materials. Material is one of the materials we tested for use production. And we, we decided not to use it, but it's a very good material. We might use it in the future as possible. Okay. Interesting. Cool. That's cool that , you're able to talk about that it's gonna be released shortly for wing design. What's your philosophy and what are you trying to accomplish when you're designing a wing? I guess for this slick, I really like a wing that delivers power as, very consistently across the wind range. And, I've ridden a lot of wings. I've, I've ridden wings that don't do that. Most wings in the past haven't done that. And we're getting better and better at keeping the power on at all times. I like a, that's always lifting. A lot of people don't have that yet. I like a wing with good canopy tension for low flutter good pumping. Never want, I never really want have to move my hands cause I'm in a, the old days of windsurfing and the old days of winging, you hit a, you have back, wind, move back. You used move handle, or, which is one reasons I liked having a boom at first because I could just slide my hand back. I didn't have to let go and grab another handle. Nowadays the wings, our wings are so stable that I never really have to move my hands back or when lull hits, they're always in the right place. So that's really important to me and I think it's important to everyone when I'm thinking about the sport in general and how to, how to make the sport appealing to more people. I think about the fact that we get families doing winging. We get. No, my, the guy who actually runs our wing brand guy named in Germany, lives just off the Baltic Sea, near Keel. He has a seven year old son who started when he was five. And yeah, I think that's awesome. I love the idea being able to do the sport. So I don't ever wanna lose focus on making it easy, making it accessible, making it affordable. We're a high end brand, so we don't tend to go for the bargain basement type wings. But we do wanna make quality wings at a reasonable price, and I don't wanna lose sight. Yeah. And like in terms of price, like obviously the, a Lula wing is much more expensive, the material like, and like what, how much of a performance advantage do you actually get out of that material and is it, only like someone noticed that, is it just for high performance wing foiling or do you think the average user, it's a big advantage for them to go with a Lula fabric? Yeah, I mean anybody that can afford it will benefit from it. It's just a question of do you wanna spend the money and, know, where are your priorities? You have three kids you have to worry about until spending my wife likes them cause they're light and she doesn't need the stiffness, but she likes the low weight, so she always wants to be on, if possible bigger rider like the. Someone who weighs 200 pounds is gonna really benefit from the stiffness or somebody who likes to jump, who benefit from the stiffness. Most people, it's totally a matter of whether they wanna spend the money or not. You, there's always a benefit and the bigger the wing, the greater the benefit. So a six meter gives you more benefit in aula than a three five in Aula for sure. So let's talk a little bit about the equipment that you use personally. What's your go-to wing like on Maui? I know you have, what, which wing do you use the most, on. We use s scores and fives here a lot. Three. Three fives scores and fives a lot. . On a sea breeze days, sea breeze day when it's blowing six, eight knots, I can be on a seven or eight pretty easily. And. Of course if it's blowing like it has last week, I can easily be on it too. And do you prefer the unit or the the slick wing for your personal use? I really like booms a lot because I can, it's easier to locate my harness lines precisely and I can put my hands anywhere and I can fly one handed. When I say I'm getting from my, from a sitting position to a kneeling position I can one hand the boom and that makes it easier. One hand. But, I used to hate handled wings, but we, our handles are good enough that I like the units also. So what I, it's pretty much whatever I'm working on is what I'm writing. So lately I've been working on slicks mostly and I've been writing slicks mostly. But in the coming few months I'll be working on units entirely and I'll be writing units. So what changes have you made to the slick wing for 2023? What have been? So we did a lot of the things on the new slick that we did on the unit. So we went to the mod canopy, we four windows. We have gone with more canopy depth and more power. We fine tune the tip twist and we had some reflex, quite a bit of reflex in the strut of the 2022 slick. With the new canopy cloth. First I should point out that the thing the reflex did was made it so that the back of the canopy didn't bag out so much when you get gust or if you're out in high wind. So the reflex in the stru improved the top end performance of the slick. By however, with our new canopy, We don't have that bagginess in the cloth. So we were able to tone down the reflex by quite a bit. It's just a maybe three degrees now of reflex in the strut. I should point out also that the wider tips of the flick make it so that the slick benefits more from a little bit of reflex than the unit. The unit has narrower tips and it works different. What else on the slick? We've changed the shape of the strut a little bit. And yeah, o overall it's a lift smoother, lift wing, smoother wing. The power development is actually the smoothest of any I've tried. So when we're sailing along through Guston walls, we feel the gusts less with the slick than we have with any other wing we've ever tried. Okay. And then what about your board and your foils? Like what are your go, what's your go-to equipment on that? Yeah, so I I don't use small boards. I did a little bit a while ago, but I don't jump, so I don't really need a small board. I've been using 75 liter five foot boards quite a bit for the last year or two. And lately I've been on a five four, that's 24 wide and we're trending narrower. Some of us are trending narrower, just cause if you're on a small hydrofoil, if you have a little bit longer narrower board, you can pop up on the foil more easily. But. A longer board isn't necessarily good for waves, so anybody who's on, heavily into waves isn't gonna be on the longer board. I see. There's probably, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say the ta tail shape, I mean I know it people used to have all the kick tails and all that, but it seems like with the, the smaller, faster foils high aspect foils you need, it's almost like you don't want to pop up at a steep angle. You want to keep that board as flat as possible on the takeoff. So do you still use that kick tail or is it just a flat tail in your Yeah, I haven't used kick tail in quite a while. And I think those were mostly valuable in the bigger boards cause it was hard to some lift. Sinking the tail and getting the nose up is easy. So I think you don't really need any kick for a small board. , the boards I use my mask is about six or seven inches from the tail of the board. So there's just not much back there to keep it from kicking up in the nose. And then how long is your mask? What mass length do you like? I've been using in the 90 to 95 range a lot. And I've used longer, but there's a lot of shallow water around here. Yeah, I was gonna ask what's the disadvantage? So a lot of times it's, it is just like you don't want to hit the reef, right? ? Yeah. The longer, longer mass are either they're, to keep 'em stiff, they have to be a bit heavier and maybe a little thick, which. Not necessarily attractive. And then there's, you always have to look at what the tide's doing. Where I ride I don't like to go out. If there's less than a foot of water a foot above mean water. And if it's two feet, that's better . And sometimes I'll just go to the harbor. If it's a super low tide time of day and I need to test something, I might go to the harbor. Cause at least I know they can get away from the beach without hitting the bottom. I'm curious cuz you've done a lot of testing, like when you get scratches on your foil from the, like hitting the reef a few times all my fos are pretty scratched up. How much does it affect the performance, like in your experience? Hugely. Hugely. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. I feel it. I've had, I won't say bad luck, but I have had collisions with things in the water that have destroyed my foils. And you really notice yeah, you notice everything. If you're, if you're sailing with somebody else, you notice because you're going slower all of a sudden, if you're not, yeah. Do you repair it? Scratch, do you try to repair scratches in your foils? Or is there a way to Oh yeah. Fix it. Like how do you repair scratches on the bottom of the foil? I usually try to keep the scratching to a minimum and I'll just use a little tiny bit of two epoxy to fill the scratch. Just, just enough to fill it and then sand it smooth. , I wanna get some epoxy paint so that I can, do a proper paint and sand job on some foils. But I haven't got around to that yet. You can't get a shipp here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that would be like a two-part paint epoxy paint kind of thing. Yeah, there's stuff called DPO out Think Australia that America's Cup campaigns use for their hydrofoils and boats. That's supposed to be really good, but you have to ship it by boat probably, or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, . Okay. And then what we talked a little bit about the Mike's lab foils, but like what foils do you use the most and what sizes and so on? Yeah, so we have a phone has a really nice five 90. It's, I don't think it's in the shop. It's a five 90 front wing that I really like. They, we have a seven, we, we've got an eight 50. We've got sizes, I guess the, I really dunno what's on the website. Okay. You just have a look real quick, but okay. So that's pretty small for you. You have five 90 is pretty small foil size for your you're not, probably not as light as Alan could is or someone like that, right? Yeah, Alan and I use a Mike five 40 sometimes my wife uses it too. And so Alan and I can sail around both being on five 40, but 60 pounds, 50 pounds. So work for most days around here, something like a five 90 is a really nice size for me.  Lighter wind days. The seven five is good. It's a very powerful for size. I was looking at the so are they the duotone foils or the fanatic foils did you say? Use those are Oh, the ones you're showing the, there's those are kite hydrofoils. Oh, duo Kite hydrofoils. Okay. And they're not the, they're not the latest stuff. I don't know if we have the latest stuff on the website. Cause it's been quite the challenge to get the new stuff outta Asia. It's basically not in available yet, basically. Yeah, I think so. Okay. So probably by spring on the mainland. Okay. And that, but the, so the foil that. Five 90 that you're saying using, I assume that's a pretty high aspect pretty thin fast foil. Is that kind of what you, how you would describe it? Yeah. It's, yeah, high. It's probably 10 to one aspect ratio and designed to be fast. We have cfd Computational Fluid dynamic in Germany who does, we work for a lot of projects, likeer America's Cup campaigns, and he's designed some profiles for us, for our mask and for our wings that we think are really very competitive. I, Peter rides his stuff all the time and he's extremely hard to keep up with, so I have no doubt that it's fast. , yeah. It's pretty amazing how much the foils have improved over the last couple, or, last three years or so. Coming from the early goal foils, what foils did you start on? I was designing our kite hydrofoils and our windsurf hydrofoils, and we had some decent trading windsurf, hydrofoils. And then when I started making 'em bigger, they weren't very good at first. So I started on some real crap foils. Very difficult to ride hydrofoils. . Then over time they got better and and became pretty easy to ride over the period of some months and maybe a year. Okay. So I just want some of the, a lot of those hydrofoils you just showed on the website or things that I designed Oh, a couple years ago. . Yeah. So actually, let's talk a little bit about the challenges that, during the pandemic, the whole supply chain issues and logistics, shipping issues and things like that, and delays and the demand, obviously during the pandemic when everybody was like staying, could, couldn't, people couldn't go to work, so they added more free time. It seemed like that's when winging just took off, like I know here on Oahu it was like, you just couldn't, we couldn't get enough stuff, there was like more, way more demand than supply. And then now it seems like where it's almost like the op opposite way where there's everything's back in stock and people are back in at work and not buying as much. I don't know, just can you talk a little bit about that and your experience with that? You pretty much said it all except for the fact that when pandemic was. Paradise. There was no traffic, there was no people on the beaches. It was amazing time in so respects sad in many respects, but not

Mike Zajicek and Stefano Moris make some of the world's fastest foils. When I researched their foils to use for wing foiling, I could not find much information online. After many months of waiting, they were finally able to make time for an interview. The timing was great since I just received the 600 Mike's lab Foil from them that I ordered months ago. We talk about their background, how they started designing and making foils and go into detail on their foil design theories and construction. For more information on their foils, please visit: http://www.mikeslab.com Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show, where I interview foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and get lots of good information for all those foil crazy people out there, like you and me. This year I didn't post a lot of interviews, but I'm ending this year, 2022 with a bang, with two really good interviews. Today's interview is with Mike's lab founder Mike and partner Stefano. They make some of the best foils in the world, the fastest foils in the world, hand-built in San Francisco and in Italy. The story, background story is really cool as well. know, Mike grew up in Czechoslovakia, communist Czechoslovakia, where he started building windsurf equipment and making it for his friends. And then escaping over the border, risking his life to escape Communist Czechoslovakia, and ended up in the West and eventually in San Francisco, started making windsurf boards again for some of the top athletes in the world, and then getting. Foils at the time of the interview. I only had one quick session on my 600 mike slab foil. Since then, I've been able to try it more and also use it on a really long downwind run in epic conditions from Hawaii Kai to White Plains where we winged like about 40 miles downwind. Super fun. And that's why I could really tell how fast this foil is. I went out with some really fast guys and was able to of smoke them in some of the runs just because the foil was really quick and easy to control and I was just able to make these big drops on these big bumps. And so I had a great time with it. I might include some of that footage in this during this interview. And then also I have some really nice footage of Alan Kez using his five, I think it's a five 40 Mike's lab foil in Kailua. And got some cool drone footage of him going super fast on that foil as well. I hope you enjoy the, this interview and next week's interview is gonna be with Ken Winter. He's the designer at Duotone and making some of the best wings on the market and also was really the first one to make inflatable wings for foiling. He's definitely a pioneer and a really good story. Started. Windsurf professional, and then got into the design side of things. And he really shared a lot about the, his wing designs and philosophy and et cetera. So that's a really good show as well. And I'm gonna post that the following Saturday, which is December 24th, and wishing everyone happy holidays. And without further ado, here is Mike and Stefano with Mike's lab. So welcome, Stefano and Mike to the Blue Planet Show. Today's show is about Mike's Lab foils. Thanks so much for joining me. I've been waiting for quite a while to get you on the show. And I finally got my own Mike's lab foil. I've only tried it one time, unfortunately, but really really excited about it. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. And actually, let's start with where you are joining from, so we're spread out all over the world here. All right. I'm in Sienna, Italy, and I'm close to San Francisco. Yeah. And then I'm in Honolulu where it's morning time. And I think for you it's Mike is midday and for Stephano, it's late in the evening. So thanks for making the time to, to join the Blue Planet Show. , my, my video is, Doing funky stuff, but, so anyway let's talk a little bit about your background. I just heard Mike saying that you you basically had to escape from, or Yeah. Tell us about, a little bit about your background how you got to where you're now. Maybe start with Mike. Yeah, so obviously I have went grade school, then apprentice training for cabinet making, but high end cabinet making, the European stuff, which you make, eat for generations rather than the, whatever I learned here. Kitchen cabinets with a staple gun, , very different. And then I went to like high school with kinda orientation for architecture, interior design and furniture design. And after that I worked for about a year in interior design in the office and also in the what is it? Shop shop. And we were catering to diplomats in Prague, taking care of the residences, preparing all that and. About 1978 actually. Exactly. I started making windsurfing boards because that was one thing we were allowed to do because my brother took on hang gliding and that was a no-no, especially close to the border. So that quickly became somewhat outlawed except one little hill in center of Czech Republic. So that's why me and my friends, we picked up wind surfing and, so 78 I made the first one, and that's how I actually introduced myself into epoxy and all that. And I kept making boards until 2012, actually more, that was the end of windsurfing boards, and then the kit boards went on for another, I would say three to four years. But during the end of that time the foil came on and I was able to jump on probably the first sword foil, which was imported into America by Brian Lake. And he left for a week somewhere and he said, yeah, Mike, hey, he have at it  and I, it was a very interesting time. He couldn't quite do it yet. It was a skim board. I put footsteps on it so I can even try because I hate boards without footsteps. And yeah, it was difficult. He thought he wasted his money  soon, very soon after he came back, he learned enough that he was doing the, I think it was Friday night races on kite boards. And very quickly he started winning the weather mark. And so we knew this is the way to go. And so sorry to interrupt you, but this was all still in the Czech Republic, right? No. I escape in 1983. And what are we are talking about now? Maybe 2014. So there's 30 years between. Okay. But okay. So you were saying back, so back in the Czech Republic, you're doing an apprenticeship for building furniture and so on. And then you started playing with hang lighters and building wind surfers, correct? Correct. That was all. So in the Czech Republic? Yes. And I'm sure that at that time you weren't really able to buy any goods from the West, so you had to basically build your whole rig and everything, or like, how, yeah. How was, how did that work? So back then, yeah, we basically bought, it was actually a pre molded piece of styrofoam, but we didn't like the shape, so we reshaped it a little bit and then laid it up with fiberglass and epox.  and for, let's say universal. We had friends like machine fittings where the high pressure hose would fit into get screwed from the, from both sides with like heavy duty bolt, expand the high pressure hose into this little delivering housing. That was our universal. And then we fitted aluminum MAs, which is just a piece of pipe, and same thing for the boom, which I found two trees and started bending my aluminum pipe to make a boom. And then I SCO end together. And I'm sure everybody started like that. Everybody in eastern Europe, right? Yeah, because I grew up in, in west Berlin, but we had friends in East Germany and they had to basically build their own equipment unless we brought them something over from the west, . Yeah. But I recall the beginnings in Maui, like early seventies, and nobody was making anything and they were pioneering their own way. Oh, so that, was that early you got into windsurfing, like back Yeah, I was 78 maybe just few years later and  certainly couldn't buy except those pre molded styrofoam blanks. Somebody was able to put together probably on the side in some factory. And yeah, that's what we bought and we could buy a park and fiberglass that was doable. Okay. And then talk a little bit about how you escaped from the Czech Republic and made it to the us. So me and my wealth, our dad was always on a dissident side, but he never got too much in trouble except getting fired from pilot school. But his friends they were persecuted a little bit more to the point that some of them ended up in u New Mines, and actually two sons of one of this, these friends helped us later on. But first we took a vacation in Yugoslavia and we contacted these couples sons over on my dad's friend, who in the meantime died as probably the result of the minds. So they researched an area how we can, or where it's safe to jump the fence between Yugoslavia and Italy. First we tried to sail from Yugoslavia to Italy across, like this Northern bay. We were quickly stopped by boat and we were in the wetsuit, so they just sent us. . Then later on, I remember being in some kind of a police station. I think that's when we came up to the border crossing and they basically took us out and did little interview. And the third time, there was few days later, these friends from Switzerland came and we started talking, strategizing, and they had this city in US Lavia where some other check people were able to just jump the fence in the middle of the city. And so that's what we ended up doing. And we abandoned our car on the US lobby inside and they basically loaded us into their car. And from dark midnight Italy, we drove all the way to Vienna refugee camp, which is Austria, where the waiting line was locked shorter. And we just had to lie to authorities there, that was the first country we stepped our foot on. So we will be able to stay in a refugee camp and apply for asylum. Wow. So this was like, I guess this was before the Berlin Wall came down and things like that. Oh yeah. What year? What year was that? I, this was 83 and Berlin Wall came down in 89. Oh, okay. So that's when the borders were really still really strict and hard to Oh Cross, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So that, you're basically risking your life doing that, right? Yeah, if you don't do it in the right spot. So my cousin was actually in the army and he was patrolling the bo border, and there was like 50 kilometer dead zone, and they had machine guns, him and his body and dogs basically patrolling the, this dead zone with electrical fences and all that. And my cousin decided to escape, this was like two years before I did it. So he knew that it was a bad area and he was so soft that his parents were actually just, his dad was allowed to go to the refugee camp, talk to him, and he managed to bring him back. And so he got little fill in how it goes, because he worked on the border and he escaped. And I'm sure his body wasn't deep due to after, wow. His whatever colleague escapes. But anyway, so then you applied for asylum, I guess in, in Europe and then, but how did you make it to San Francisco? . So yeah, you apply, you wait few months we had a interview with Ambassador, US Ambassador in vie. And once he okayed us, we in the meantime joined this American Fund for Czechoslovak refugees, which was financing the flights, to come to us. And we were asked where they were gonna send us to Boston, and we thought further away from Europe would be better idea. And luckily we got San Francisco, so we ended up directly to here. They paid us first month's rent and after that we were on our own. Luckily we got welfare the first few months and yeah, after I, I literally started working in a company shop two weeks after arrival with zero English, , some French, enough Russian. And luckily a Russian guy hired me for his shop. So I was able to speak Russian to him at first, but he had three other young guys like me, and I picked up English from them within few months. Pretty okay. Especially, and it's just about work, it's not, it wasn't too bad. Wow. Yeah, now, and now your English is very good, so that's impressive. How old were you when you got to the United States? 23. Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah. Okay. That's a amazing story. And then, yeah, so then you got a job, and then how did you get into making your own foils? First it was the boards. I jumped from that 78 back in check. I made at least six wind boards. And then here I am in San Fran, driving by Berkeley, where I see dozens of wind surfers having fun. And I go, I gotta, get back to it. Me and two other friends, we bought this production like horrible quality boards and started going out there and later on I realized, yeah, I probably have to make me my own board again. And it was 1985 when I made my first board, maybe 86, 1 of those. And I managed to cut my finger pretty badly in that process, . And I finished the board injured, and three of my friends tried it, and they immediately said, yeah, we need something like that. We want same board. . So I had three customers before I could ever try my first board out here, And I slowly shifted from cabinet making and little bit later construction because my Russian boss managed to fire me for asking him a question . So I went into short period of construction and from that I was able to meander into making boards. And so that's how you started basically you started your own business building boards? Yeah. In 86 full-time. Okay. Definitely 87. And then, yeah. And then talk about, yeah. How that evolved into Mike's lab, I called it, believe it or not, Mike's lab. Then for the first board, just as a joke that I'm some big operation . It was, nothing. And yeah, I was making in inroads into the local scene, racing myself, pushing it. And then local racers like Bar Chrisman and Steve Silvester, they noticed sooner than later they got their own boards made by me, even though Bar Chrisman was making his own. But it was too much work for him, , and now he's using my force. That's crazy. Literally, what is it, 37 years later or 40 maybe Yeah. So I'm making boards and in 1996, Matt Pritchard asks me to make him aboard and he picks it up on the way to Hood River Nationals. And he wins by a long shot, like all bullets, by long distance. So immediately Kevin stepped in, then Kevin won his first World Cup, p w a beating beyond Dereck, interrupting his 13 year winning streak on my board, which was a big deal. Wow. And I think it was 1999. And film again calls me and he goes, Mike, you gotta come over. Kevin's gonna do it. And sure enough, I just made awards and that was a lot of fun. . Oh, that's excellent. Okay. So Matt and Pritchard put you on the map a little bit with the Win Winston Awards and Yeah. Later on it was all kinds of other people like Phil Scott Fent, and Michael many others. They all use Finian Min. Newberg who was, there was plenty of others. And the whole time, like basically you're not really sponsoring these guys, they're just buying boards from you because you make the fastest boards or were you making boards for free for some of those guys? No, they had to pay me. I was still very poor, barely making it. To the top guys, I was trying to keep the price down so they can keep selling it. And they did, they sold the board for at least the same, if not more. But I didn't have to do the paperwork or all that, so I just Yeah. Collected money and they let them deal with it. So early on, pretty much everybody had to pay me, but I was very reasonable about the prices, hopefully . Wow. Yeah, it's a little bit like I, I was talking to Mark Rappa horse who started S I c and all the best guys were buying his boards cuz they were the fastest boards available and he didn't really have to sponsor anybody because that's a nice position to be. Yeah, that's where I . But it seems like to the, to this day, it's like you have more, like you, it seems like you have a long waiting list to, for these foils. Like I had to wait, I don't know, three or four months to get a foil. What's your wait time? And I don't know is that kind of how you try to keep it where you basically, you can't make as many as people want? Or what's, yeah, what's your philosophy? Stef, I should men jump in here in let's say the waiting times and the list, but I would say boards, you can almost go in and, let's say have a mate in Cobra, which we did with the kite boards and they were pretty dang good. But I don't really see how our design could be successful and made somewhere in China without us looking it over. And we did try to teach an outfit here in Michigan, I believe, and we slept through about, I don't know, six months, maybe a year. And it still wasn't, the quality wasn't there, so it's not so easy. So I step, Steph should jump in here. Yeah, actually okay. So actually Stefana maybe start talking a little bit about your background, like how you got into this business. Sure. Okay. Mike is one of my best friends. I've known him since I was 18 years old. I'm 48 now. And I, yeah, time flies. And so I met Mike at the Berkeley Marina windsurfing because I caught the windsurfing bug when I was 17. And I met him when I was 18 and I was at the Berkeley Marina and I would see him and all these other guys just go up, up and down and upwind up to Treasure Island training every day. And as a senior in high school at that time, I got off at around noon, just afternoon. So I was going to Berkeley every day. And I just saw that as a goal I wanted to achieve, to be able to, be as fast as those guys and be able to go up wind as fast as those guys. And I was on this super heavy polypropylene, tega windsurf board, and I was just, slug up there. And I finally remember finally making it all the way up to Treasure Island and seeing Mike and the others dancing around playing, doing big jumps. And I chased them back down wind. And I tracked Mike down in the parking lot and we started talking. And then I, and for me, Mike's lab.  as a board maker and as a person was already a legend at that point in the windsurfing scene. So I remember going up to him and oh my gosh, you got a new Mike's lab? Oh, when did you get that? And Mike was like, oh, I made it . And so that just started the whole conversation there. And Mike, gave me an awesome deal. My very first Mike's lab board was a one that had broken and taken up water and he was able to cut the whole thing in half and let it dry out and repair it. So he sold it to me for cheap and I paid off by digging under his house an addition, an additional room under his house. Cuz as a high school student I didn't have that kind of money . And yeah, so that's how our friendship started is out there on the race course, so to speak. And I'm a product designer, so I went to San Jose State and studied product design. So I'm right in the middle between mechanical engineering and fine art. And during my university days and on weekends I'd be working in a windsurfing shop. On the summers I'd be doing all the local race circuit and everything like that. And often would fly myself at Mike's for dinners and jacuzzi time and just philosophizing on life. And that's how our friendship started. . And then in 2006 I met my Italian wife and I have Italian relatives too over here. And so I decided to move over here. And in 2014 is when we started the whole Hydrofoil project. And since as a product designer, I have, I've been doing CAD and 3D and tool design and things like that since 1994. And I proposed to Mike Hey, let's, let's I knew the scene in San Francisco was already blowing up and Mike was already sending me messages about it and I wanted to get into it too. And I'm just one of the people I, I love to just build everything. And I'm always more satisfied to be out on the water if it's something that I've made. So I was just saying, Hey, let's, start a project together just almost like a hobby, we'll design it together and Mike will do all the first layups. I'll do all the tool design. I'll make the first mold. I should jump in quickly in here. Yeah, so I got it sort then soon enough I got spots, foil as well, l shortly after that, F four started making their own foil.  and I was hacking together literally hundreds of pieces with thousands of combinations for maybe a couple of years and never really figured out what it needs and where is the problem. And I know I couldn't control the sort in pitch and spots in left. And I knew it could be combined. And I'm telling Stefano and he goes let's make our own. And there it was. . , yeah. Wow. So it started, so before you met, and I guess that was in the early nineties when you guys met when you were 18. So before that, did you grow up in California or Yeah. Yeah. I was born in San Francisco and I grew up in the Bay Area. Yes. Oh, okay. And then, so basically you married an Italian wife, your Italian wife, and then moved to, basically moved to Italy. Yeah. And then, so now you make, basically you make foils as well in, in Italy. Yeah so the whole development process with Mike is that, from TA 2014 when things started just almost as a hobby, but then quickly started getting requests and things like that I was always doing the design work, the tooling and we would always sort of hash out over at that particular time, Voxer, now we use what's up, but just chats to refine and go over the designs. And I would then come over once or twice a year to work with him in his garage and help boost production because we quickly gotta to the point where we just could not meet demand. And we had to get some more man, hands in there so to speak. So I would come over. A couple times a year to do these production sessions. And and at that particular time I was also teaching at a a university here in Italy, different design courses and curriculum. And then in 2019, the demand got so much where it justified me opening up my own shop over here. So from 2019, I've had my own lab, so to speak where I produce a lot of the foils that are then sold on over here in Europe. Wow. Okay. Great story. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna share this these cool sketches that you emailed me. I'm gonna screen share it and sure. And can you see them? Yeah. Okay. So I guess at that time you guys were one of you was in the Bay Area and one is in and Europe and Italy. And then you were making these for Kite, kite foiling. . Yeah. These first sketches are one of our very first designs. And we, Mike and I both have the philosophy where we just gotta try stuff and learn by doing, we are definitely of the trial and error philosophy. And so this, these are sketches of our very first design, which had, the mass mounted directly over the wing. And I would often 3D print stuff and send it over to Mike so we could have it in his hands. And what you're seeing, all those little pieces, seven through two, and A, B, C, D, those were all the first sort of positive mold like that I sent to Mike because our very first design made negative molds by 3D printing them and backfilling them with resin and M D F, but it ended up getting lost in the shipping. So then a few months later I had to send him the positives, which then he made molds of so just for a good laugh. That was our very first design. Okay, so these little pieces, you made 3D printed molds and then built the basically made the parts and then put 'em all together into to make one foil. Yeah, those, I sent them all the pieces and he could put them all together and then make a mold himself out of fiberglass or whatever he did at the time. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. , and this is where you were a little bit younger still . Yeah. . But yeah, talk, here's sketches, where we're thinking about, how to keep the tips from popping outta the water. Just what seems so obvious now. But at that time, these were all considerations that we were making. Yeah. And here's a little cross section of how I was gonna make the 3D printed mold to send them. And I, this, this was a, it was such a tragedy because I, for months, I printed all these pieces, made this huge mold, and it just literally got lost in shipping and just damaged. It's probably some buried in some warehouse in America somewhere. ? Oh, no. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So talk a little bit about this. Is this like your secret sauce or can you share a little bit about like, how you built your molds and if, are you still do using that same process? No, the not at all. So this was in the beginning we used the 3D printing to make the first mold, but we quickly realized that it's just not accurate enough. When you're dealing with making and designing and making hydrofoils, you have to have much higher tolerances. And We quickly moved on to aluminum molds. However, having said that, often in our design process between Mike and I, Mike is somebody that really likes to have something, between his hands, that he can of feel the profile and help visualize the connection. And so often I would print out little pieces and send them to him just so he could like, touch and hold them and give feedback on what he thought. And that was these little pieces here kind of thing? Yeah. Or I don't know if, I don't remember if I sent a picture or not, but, our connections or sometimes profile sections and things like that. Yeah, wing section, wingtip, just to, for me to touch it and Yeah. But, oh, sorry. I just picked up basically the dimensions from what seemed to be working from my thousands of experiments over couple of years. And I gave the rough dimensions and then Stefano would add it, make it into a final product. And then we had somebody, I believe, in Kansas making our first aluminum molds, which were, reasonably pricey, but for, as he said lot better tolerances and also option. Cooking it in the oven to get the proper mask strength. We had to go the aluminum route and pressures, I we clamp our molds together. Everybody knows we do a wet layer process and we use really high pressures, which obviously 3D printing doesn't, can't hold up to it. . But these original molds, I guess the, this part here was the three pin 3D printed part, and then you put exactly resin underneath it and MDF boards, and then just Yeah. Made your own molds out of yeah, out of 3D printed materials for prototyping, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I since those early days, I have done this a couple more times when I want to do something that's just so ridiculous that it's not worth spending, a few thousand on an aluminum mold and then find out that it doesn't work, so I, I did a flying wing concept many years ago with this same process. Okay. And then I guess this picture here is like the, where the mass is right on top of the foil, but the foil is angled forward. Yep. Yeah. Looks like a good way to catch seaweed, right? Yeah, . Exactly. . But how did it work? We I think we ended up not doing such a forward rake when we, I think this was like maybe one of the very first sketches. Yeah, just a sketch. I bet you it would turn really good. And I know brand did this forward. Oh yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Okay and then this looks like what year was this? This kind of an older article. Huh? The world's fastest kite boards. Kite boards by day. Wow. So if it's a kiteboard, I bet you it's about 2014, maybe 13. And yeah, I went straight from winding making boards from, for Johnny Heineken, Adam Cook, and all these really fast guys. And again, they took it straight to the world championship winning. Johnny was at least two or three times world champion on the three Fin Kitire boards. Yeah, right there, . And then this, I guess this was before foiling, right? This, these were just Exactly with a regular fin on the back and so on. Yeah. Yeah. Three fins. Yes. Oh, three fins. Okay. Wow. Which ironically turned into be perfect for learning Wing foiling. Yeah. And then the, and then there's these asymmetrical speed boards. Huh. That's cool too. That's Rob Douglas, who was always, and he still is now pursuing speed on wings with my foils, and he's buying all kinds of wings, trying to go fast. But this was at the time when kites were actually holding the world speed record for sale powered craft. And he was asking me to make his boards with his ideas, his dimensions for different conditions. I believe at the end I probably made about 27 of these for him. . Wow. So at the at that time, yeah, the kites held the world speed record for sail power. Who's holding it now? What is it? Is it foils or still regular boards well be, so he got his world record, 55.5 knots, which held for I think a couple of years. And then the little boat, Ste. May know the name. I think it was some kind of attraction foil with a sail. Yeah. Vest. Sail rocket. Yeah. And sale Rocket disintegrated at the end of the run by, by obliterating that 55 55 Or maybe over 60, but it could never be repeated because the book was in, in pieces, . Oh, wow. And then that's still the world record, that's the current world record? Or did they get the world record with that run, or, yes. No, they did. They did. And then at the end of the run, the Bo boat, just self des or self-destructed. Hon, honestly, I don't, I, I know the, when the Sail Rocket had their big crash, I don't think that was the record run. I think they went and re rebuilt and did the record run after that, but I believe they still have the record. And this, yeah, this image here is just, I have a portfolio site just showing a, the depth of my work. I've done everything from consumer electronics to toys, to, to clothing. A lot of people think since I'm involved, in the design side of Mike's lab, they think I'm, an aero engineer or, a naval architect. But I'm not I'm really just as much an artist as I am a tinkerer. , if you would say, So even like first class airline seats and things like that you worked on . Yep. Yep. And what is this? A it's a little mp3, boom box from back in the day. And there's some other Bluetooth concepts there. I was working for a design firm for a while where we did shoe concepts for Nike. I've done everything from, multimedia commercials to some c compositing work to web design and coding and things like that. So a little bit of everything under the creative umbrella. The slipper looks a little bit like a kite surfing foot strap. Yeah. Maybe there's some subconscious influence there. What's this one? The Air Force water plane. Oh, I so I, all my life I've been into, radio control, everything and this kind of ties into the hydrofoil design. And I, it's the same with Mike in the sense that we've, all the things we've been into in our lives, we've always thought about just the way fluid flows. So neither Mike nor I. Like I said, aeronautical engineers but we definitely lie awake at night thinking about flow. And so I've done, yeah, that was a scratch built radio control airplane I built and I've done discus launch and RC helicopters and I there was a period of my life where I was skydiving for about 14 years, and I also designed and built a parachute. So I've even designed and built foil kites as well. So just flow, fluid flow. Interesting. And then this looks like a covid safe cafeteria design. Is that what it is? ? No, it's old fur. It's a old library furniture from a much old, just for privacy or yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So not not the covid flowing across the table. Yeah. No. And since 2019, that's all I've been doing is the hydrofoil. So before 2019, I was mixing in consulting and, working on the hydrofoils with Mike. But since two, 2019 it's been just full-time hydrofoils, which Okay. Even then, even with Mike producing in California and me producing in Europe, yeah. The wait list is still Optum 3, 4, 5 months. It depends on what model and where the person is located. Yeah. And then so the pictures in that portfolio shows Nico Par. And for about three years we were dominating the racing circuit on our kite foil and our waiting line just absolutely exploded. It was pushing past two years, waiting time for everybody else, learn how to make proper foils. We were definitely there having very successful race design. And I think Nico Parley were at least two times world champion. Daniel Lamoro at least three on our foil, and maybe Johnny I think was as well, one once or twice. Yeah. And I think it's really important to point out that, when people think of Mike's lab, they first think of Mike, and then sometimes they think about me. But the re the reality is it's really like a big team project. I If it wasn't for the valuable input and feedback of Nico and Johnny and Ricky Leche and Connor and all, just the whole slew of racers giving their input, then of course our hydrofoils wouldn't be where they are today. So I just got this foil that bullet six and it's yeah, it's beautiful. I only tried it one time for a short time to test it out. It definitely felt fast and very efficient. But I'm wondering like, how many people do you have working on these and do you, did you actually do some of the work on this foil or like who who actually builds these foils at them? Yeah, I believe I build this one and shift it to you, and the only thing I have done by somebody is to cut my pieces to be late inside the mold. So if you imagine a roll of carbon and I need to have the pieces precut, I have somebody doing that. But everything else I do myself. So the pre-reg carbon basically cut into into the pieces that fit into the mold. It's not even pre-reg, it's dry carbon. It's dry carbon and then it's saturated by liquid resin. So the resin, do you like vacuum it into the mold or do you lay it out wet it out before the mold closes? How does that work? Yeah, exactly. Just wet it out piece by piece into each half of the mold and then the two halves come together and hopefully next morning it pops open with what you have. It obviously needs a lot of cleaning after it comes out of the mold, but. . Yeah, so I guess this one looks like the whole, the fuselage and the whole front foil is all one piece and then it looks like the tail is molded separately and then connected here. Is that correct? No, it's all molded in the same time. What you probably are looking at is our own mold connection. It looks like it's been connected, but no, it was all laid up in, in one time, one piece. And that's because we have to screw the wings to the fuselage from each end of the fuselage, right? So you can see the seam of the mold on the final product. But other than that, it's all one piece. And our philosophy was back then trying to make a race foil. The less connections and the more in center the wings are in relation to the fuselage, the less, as Stephano called it, peak acceleration we gonna encounter. So if you have to screw the wing from one side or the other, you have bulk of the fage and meat necessary to, for the screw to go in on one side, and that's your unnecessary drag through the water. So we decided to go this route and learn how to build it and it's reason. Efficient, making it this way that we don't have to spend time, making pieces there, machining them together, screwing them together. , this way we can find unit for the customer who may not have the ability, conditions or time to do it themselves, so they get something what's already fine tuned and you, the only way to really mess it up is to run the reef or something. Oh, I know. And this foil looks so nice. I'm really scared of getting it scratched up. So the spot i g foiler is really shallow and then the mass I got is like 102 centimeters I'm probably only gonna use it in deep water spots. Yeah, I think you changed it from 96 to 1 0 2. . . Yeah. No, for racing. It's definitely nice to, especially Darwin racing. I wanted to ask these has these little blue fibers in it. What is that and what, why are those early on? It was for me to I used to go to the border with up to six different boards and foils on shore and I would go in and out with a kite back then. And I figured out how to mark them visually for me, because if you go in and out, you forget which one felt what and why.  and I had this color coding type. Visuals. And I remember, oh, the orange one felt this way and felt good. Let me look how I build it. What is the pitch when I came home or to the shop the next day? And I think it also gives it a little bit of a character. When people have the same foil, at least they can recognize which one is theirs. Especially running into the wrestling line. Sometimes people would grab somebody else's board In the past, if you can't believe it, like wind surfing boards, I made so  this way. It was a little bit, recognizable in the first glance. Okay. So that this is basically the color, just so you can each foils a little bit different and you can recognize which, which ones which. Yeah. And then, yeah, I noticed there is on the, and it's fun for us too, just it changes things up. I like to use pigments and tins too when I'm doing mine. And it's fun cause you can see the difference between my ies and mine and just changes. Yikes. Your connection is really slow now, I think. Yeah. We're breaking up a little bit, but, and then, yeah, on the mass too, it has these little colors and stuff like that. So it's just yeah, make it little bit unique. Each one. Each piece. Yeah. And the colors could be almost any color. I get a fiber in different colors and the pigments in different colors. So yeah, it just can be limitless. And then the other thing that I found really interesting is the connection between the mask and the fu fuselage. And basically rather than having it like a lot of foils have almost a box, a little bit like a tule box where the mask goes into the foil. But it looks like you try to it's more like you're maximizing the surface area where they're connected and and getting, that's not only the surface area, it's also not weakening the fuselage. The fuselage has to be super strong. And others using the mini total, if you can really pay attention, for example, lift, right lift foils, they do the mini total. And if you look at the fuselage size on their foil, it's massive. So I don't know if they ever will be able to go top speed, even though they do pretty well. But the disadvantage of the mini turtle is that your fuselage is too. Yeah, it definitely introduces a weak spot. Like on my access fuselages there's like several that had got a little cracks right here, like right at the end of the mast where it inserts into the board because that's just like a, the sides are relatively thin, right. Next to the box. So I guess, so basically part of it is just to have more strength right here in that connection. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. It transfers a little bit too much stress. That's the, and then explain how this little screw works. Cause I guess the whole, with this screw, you can change the angle of the tail a little bit. Is that correct? Can you explain how that works? Because I haven't really tried that yet to put a washer or something in here. Yeah, you could, but it's not necessarily Yeah, go ahead. But I think we gotta take two steps back here because a lot of people that are probably listening to this, that are coming from the wing foiling or the prone or surf foiling, and maybe I've never heard of Mike's lab before. This connection system that we develop has been copied by many other brands, which is a testament to how well it works and. The design the crux of the, of designing a hydrofoil is you have to marry what would be the hydrodynamic ideal with what is mechanically required in order to just support the stresses involved. And so that's why we very quickly are very first foils. Yeah. We had a detachable, front wing and detachable rear wing. And then we quickly realized, as Mike was saying, that there's just way too much drag there in order to be able to house all the extra hardware, so on and so forth. So that connection system is to be as efficient and small as possible, but still be mechanically sound enough. And another misconception that a lot of people have is that little screw is used for the incidents, but it's actually not when you would, like with our kit oils, when we were, we had smaller diameter fuselages we would use shims and we still do with the kite foils. And you can literally you're bending the fuselage in order to get an angular change in incidents. So it's not so much that you have to have a little screw, but you just have to have material in there that then you're actually flexing the whole fuselage. Okay. Ba basically basically the foil is being held by these B three big screws in the. , but, and then this one is to hold a washer if you wanted to. No. The little stabilizes the fuselage going towards the back wing. We are using the mask and strength to keep the fuselage attached as long as possible before it has to go on its own to hold onto the back wing. And early on when I was testing a kite forests, the little screw wasn't there. And I could not quite, I didn't like it. It was all over the place as far as stability. As soon as I added the little screw manually into one of the foils, it improved drastically. So the legal screw is there for stability mainly, and Okay, got it. It became an advantage that the pitch of the incidents on the back wing was adjustable by putting reasonable tension without damaging something, we could lower the incidence of the back wing right there on the beach and, go back out. Okay. So if let's say I, if I wanted to, if I put a small washer in here in between, that would lower the incidence of the tail flow. So basically, if you want, if you wanna go faster and have, basically have less lift at high speeds, that's what it would achieve, basically. Or is it the other way? ? No. You are correct, but I don't think you need to do that. Yeah. It's already pitched to go really fast. You may wanna experiment. I don't think it's gonna help you with speed or anything like that. In fact, it's gonna force you to move your footstep maybe an inch back. But it, I don't think it's gonna buy you anything. It's probably gonna lower the stability if you go lower than the pitch you have. I don't think you're gonna see any good results. Okay. That's good to know. It's good. Measure it and it's around two degrees up to 2.4. I wouldn't ship it at all. And if you go below two degrees, at least in Kite Falls, we found that the four stars golfing, if you go really fast downwind, it loses the stability. The back wing is not helping to stabilize the fronting downwind at high speed. So you're saying the the built-in angle of incidents of the tail wing is about two degrees, is that correct? Ye between two to 2.4. And then what about the front wing? Oh, that's neutral. That's always neutral. Neutral zero. Okay. Yeah and it depends also what back wing it is as well. Cause we have different back wings. . Yeah. Because it's that's a little bit of a misconception is sometimes yeah. Really what matters is the difference between the front angle of the front and the back wing. So yeah. Correct. So basically your front wing is at zero angle of incidents. The back wing is like two degrees two to two and a half. Yeah. And and just to be clear, zero angles for a front wing does not mean neutral lift. It's still giving a lot of lift even at zero degrees, right? Because of the shape of the profile, right? Yeah. Yes. And I found it was relatively easy to get it up. I was worried that it would take really high speed to get up on foil, but it wasn't too, it worked fine and it just came up just fine, it wasn't like a big thing. We I mean I tried to erase it last Sunday and none of us were able to get going because the wind was too light and we ended up having to get a bo to take us back in But but yeah but it had nothing to do with the foil. Was this not windy enough? I should mention that my friend, my buddy has the same exact foil you have and that's his favorite. And he just arrived to Los Baja and he was gonna go out. And he did. And he said, oh my God, this s water is really wild and it's a little bit less stable. And then he comes in and he sends me a message, I'm so stupid, I put on a kite foil . So he went out on his standard kite foil on a wing board and thought, everything is good. And then he comes in and he's totally shocked that he was able to do it. . . Yeah. So talk a little bit about the tips here. Had, it's like a little bit, what do I call it? It's like downward, but then has a little bit up, up curved at the end. So what's the theory behind that Is say down and then back up again? Yeah. Right here in the tip. To make sure that the ventilation doesn't, if you breach a tip so that the ventilation doesn't propagate back down the wing. I see. So when the wing tips comes out of the water, this tip doesn't create ventilation at the tip. Yeah it doesn't allow the low pressure or the detached flow from the top of the wing tip to then propagate down towards the root. It helps shed that sort of bubble and shed that ventilation. Okay. And then I noticed on the tail wing you have these little winglets. What's the purpose of those? Yeah, all those curves on the front wing, which go straight button, then down, and same thing on the back wing. They bring stability and directionality. So for example, our most accessibility kite trace wing, front wing had a lot of these curves and it was very stable. So yeah, you could make a straight wing straight across, but it's gonna be pretty, it's gonna feel like a banana peel stepping on. So that the first purpose is to get it away from the surface, right? If you curve it down, then you don't bridge the first surfaces often, and then the directionality and stability comes from that as well. And then the tip is relief that as step said, it shut the. . Okay. And then, yeah, it was three . So the other question I had like the tule bo tu mount I guess all your masks have tu mounts and it seems like in, in surf foiling and wing foiling, most like the new standard is the plate mounts, right? Yeah. The plate mounts with the two, two US boxes. Why are you sticking with the tu mount and yeah, what's the theory behind that? Yeah the, Mike will give his opinion, but my opinion is that the total box is in incredibly rigid, in any well-built board where you have tracks, you have to tie it to the top of the deck anyway, and the total box does that by itself anyway. So from my standpoint, a 240 gram box is a lot lighter than tracks. And that's not even talking about hydrodynamic issues of the plate underwater versus the total box as well. Okay. Okay. So it's more efficient and you have the connection to the deck of the board and like the whole box is basically different, stronger, yeah. A lot less draggy and it's lighter. Yeah. Yeah, I in, luckily in our floorboards we have the foil strong box, we call 'em, it has both ATU and a plate mount. But some of my newer boards, like the, this one behind me only has the plate mount. So I guess I'm gonna have to either use a plate mount adapter or just use just for this prototype. But I'm gonna have to start putting total boxes in all my boards. Again,  or bo, have both, but we also sell adapters and I also make custom carbon plates for clients that really want to have the plate. I'll do it. It's not like we're we don't do it, but Right. We just prefer the box. Makes sense. Yeah, it's, it, I think it would be pretty difficult, at least for me to build in the plate because you can imagine the resonant fiber running out of the end of the mold now on a vertical situation. So the tunnel is a lot more simple and a lot stronger, and I think it's the correct way to go. The plate has a huge advantage by adjustability back and forth. In fact, I think even Nickleson from Lift gave me the credit that I was the first one to put two tracks side by side because he used to use four balls drilled through the board.  and attached, from the deck, that's how he was attaching this plate mount system. . And I just, I looked at it and I go, oh, I've been using the windsurfing pin boxes long enough that this could be a lot more elegant and adjustable and it wouldn't leak. And sure enough it worked and then everybody adopted it . Interesting. Yeah, what you said makes sense. Basically, when you're laying up the carbon inside the mold with the total, you can keep all the layers going straight and basically the strongest direction versus having to curve them out in a plate mount. So is that And resin dripping out , sorry? And resin would be dripping out. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you would have a big mess when you're try to lay it up. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And then I guess why there, why are there so many holes? Is it just cause so that it's adaptable to different types? OFTU boxes, . Okay. That came from kite race foils. The foot strap had to be incidentally right over thet box. So that was a disadvantage. So people who had tracks for kite race foil, which was very bad sock, unstable, flexible, but they could put a footstep anyway on it. On the deck. So once we had to deal with the th with the tunnel, I figured, hey, we can go to one, at least one of the inserts or mounts for the footsteps straight into the tunnel. And that's why this is adjustability for footstep mounting. I see. You can, so basically you can put the foot strap, the one that goes through the footstep into the mass in different positions. That makes, now do kite racers, you just use two screws or do you sometimes use multiple screws to hold it in the total box. I was gonna say that. So for winging, I do two screws up front and one in the back. Not only, it makes it a little bit stronger if you hit big fish, like people hit whales out here, , or I hit a dolphin and some other people actually broke off a wing not mine. I think it was spots back then hitting a dolphin. Anyway, so the two screws put it in with lot more strength, right? Because even wind first, you imagine the big wind board with a rig and rider on it if they hit a sea or rock or anything. Now the foil is at the bottom of whatever. So if they can use more than one screw, it helps. But they are still using at these locally little string for the center screw. , if you really hit something and the foil falls out, it, it hangs on the little piece of rope of the center screw. And also, I like the system because if people damage the barrel, not, or if it breaks the barrel not breaks, they can just pop one out and put it in the appropriate place, the damaged one. So it's like a spare  built in spares. , yeah, exactly. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask you, like with the total boxes, one of my pet peeves, and I'm not sure if I'm just not doing it right, but it seems like no matter how tight I put it in, like sometimes, like when you're on the water, you're pumping or whatever, all of a sudden you get that little, and it loosens up a little bit because I think it just slides a little bit deeper into the box. Like how can prevent that from happening? It doesn't loosen up, it actually tightens up so the connection gets more secure between the foil and the board. But your front screw may be a little bit loose, but nobody cares until you hit something like a big fish, right? Because there is always pressure going up from the front way. So you don't care if the screw is a little bit loose at this point. And that's why two screws, because I can crank them against each other, one and the back one and you can hear it cracking and going in and maybe. If you would use two screws, it may not happen. The little cracking what happens to you. And oh, sorry. Ahead sfa. I was just gonna say, a little bit of candle wax rubbed on the side of the head. Also gets it into the box with very little friction and allows you to tighten it from the get-go really easily as well. That's a good tip. I'll try that. And Johnny also developed this technique for the race fos. He really wanted the total sitting Absolutely. Exactly how he wanted it. So his board height at the deck for the front foot would've to be in literally millimeters. He hated it if it was even colder in chalk. So he would put it in, put screws in, then he would grab the foil, put a board upside down and hit the nose of the board, the deck side against the ground, like grass. And you could hear this crack, what you describe happens to you on the water. So he would prepack it on the beach and retighten the screws so nothing could move afterwards. Ah, okay. Yeah, that's another technique, . Basically attach the foil, put the put, put it with the foil down on, and then have the board on top and push it upside down. Okay. And just hit the gently and just. The front of the wing holding the foil like this and just top the nose of the board. Oh, okay. Like you are stepping on it type thing. Okay. You will hear this crack and then you can reit the upcr. Interesting. Check with your board maker too. Yeah. That . Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm, we make most of my own board but I guess another misconception too is like that I guess if you hit something, most of the pressure obviously is on the front connection, on the front screw. But when you're riding the Yeah, the lift of the front wing, actually the most pressures on that back screw. The back screw. Because this lifts up and the back screw gets pulled down basically. Pulled out. Yes. When you're writing. But the huddle box is designed so that the radiuses, the vertical radiuses are taking the load. So it's not really, it shouldn't be the screws that are bearing that load. They cinch it in there, but once it's in there, it's not depending on the screws. Okay. So just to be clear, like you're saying the kind of these, the, this sites takes the vertical load. Yeah, because it gets wedged into the board basically. Yeah. Yep. And then, yeah, another thing too, people sometimes say oh, my board thet box doesn't go all the way in, but basically there's supposed to be a little gap in the bottom of it, right? Like the, basically it sits tight on these ends and then the sides are just parallel, right? Yep. Yeah. That was the design with this by Larry to have those radis at the ends, jamming in at 10 degrees each side, and that's where the load was basically taken up. And yeah, there must be a gap between the top of the tunnel and your board deck of it, because if there was not, imagine your full body weight would be pushing out a little nomination detail out through the deck, and you would just cause leakage. But in the meantime, starboard brand for foiling windsurfing, they had so many problems with the total box, probably not built properly, that they ended up using the roof, basically the top of the box and issuing the shims. So you would install your box just the right way. So as Johnny was sensitive to the height of the deck up front for the front foot, now the top athletes for windsurfer are doing the same thing with shimming, the top, like you said, on top of the tunnel, and they can adjust the rake of the foil itself against the board. Ah, okay. So by, by basically shimming this top, you can change the angle of the mask slightly kind of thing. But in my opinion, it totally defeats the purpose of the radiuss getting jammed into the box. But their box kept stretching so bad that they had to do this. So now you don't have the ends cinched, or only the sides are holding the foil and it's sitting on the top. It cannot go any deeper, which I think it's crazy, but they are doing it . Okay. Interesting. Interesting. All right, thanks for thanks for that. Something, I'm gonna try that like you were saying, Johnny Heineken just like cracking the foil on the beach before getting on the water and retightening it. That's a good idea. They should, you use two screws up front, the two front ones, and if you smack it and you crank both of them, no way you're gonna do it by sailing it anymore. It's gonna be okay in there. And for the, to put in the second screw. My box only has two screws in, it's, two holes in it. So I just, I guess have to just mark the exact spot and drill a hole through the tu box basically. Correct. I don't know. We use quarter into G 10 on top of the tunnel, so we can actually put the screws in anywhere we want and counter seeing them. So in case you are not using the pad, you can still comfortably step on it. So in case you do have some solid support for your second screw, yeah. You can just drill it one and one eight back from the front hole, and you're gonna be exactly in the right spot. Actually I was just thinking like on my, on most of our boards, the deck is thicker than the tunnel, so there's a hole for the screw to go into the board. Into the board. But anyways, yeah something to play around with, oh wait, are you using like Alexis boxes? It's similar to the Gulf Foil boxes. Yeah. We make our own with a full strong box, but oh, and does it have the screws vertical, like 90 degrees or are they Originally it's taken from total design. It's it's like like the straight, like the Gulf foil. Yeah, so be careful when you are first putting in your foil, you need to rotate the barrel notes by those few degrees because original total design is about 10 degrees right back. So yeah, that could be a little issue. But yeah, I'm trying to give enough space for the front and back to be countered back by 10 degrees. It was originally designed for windsurfing and windsurfing decks for slalom boards. They were sloping down. They were getting thin as you go towards the tail. So that's why that 10 degree slope. Yeah. I'm just sharing like this is what our, we have a box that combines like the tunnel and the interesting the plate mount together and then the top has this only the two holes though. Yeah. Then just use the two holes. Don't bother with there's screw. Good enough. Yeah. No, I mean it seems to work fine. I think just like getting it super tight before you get on the water is the key, I think. Or even maybe breaking it, bringing in a screwdriver. Yeah, tighten it on the water if it's necessary. But as I said, you never need to tighten it on the border as far. Having a secure connection. The only reason to do it is if it feels uncomfortable stepping on it, if but it's never bad. It shouldn't even matter. I think like when you're pumping, when you're pumping and there's a lull and there's no wind and you have to pump through the lull, sometimes that pumping will it's right. But yeah, then you don't want that rocking thing of your mass rocking. Oh, so you are saying it actually goes back out until it hits the screw? think yeah, like you said, it goes a little bit deeper, but then the screws loose. So when you're pumping there to be a little bit of wiggle back and forth on so you can feel the foil doing this. Yeah, I've never seen that. Never. Yeah. I dunno. Yeah. Maybe didn't put it tight enough, yeah. Title box should be tighter than that. It should go in there with a friction, and that friction should stop this. If the back through is tight. I don't think it'll pull out the front, but I never heard of it yet, okay. Okay. All right. And then I also noticed that the whole thing is pretty light. I know I also have access to access foils and it just it just a little bit more weight. And the this whole foil feels pretty light. So how do you achieve that, I guess you just minimize the amount of materials needed by just making that smaller or like how Yeah. How do you keep it light? . For starters, our sections are much thinner than what people are usually used to out there. When I see the profile thicknesses of some of the other brands that like 15, 16, 17 millimeters we're at 12.3 13 millimeters, so already there's less volume there. And then we also have core materials in order to get, good compaction. So it's not solid carbon all the way through. So that's, do you use wood inside, wood or foam or what do you use inside the foam? Is it secret? That's proprietary.  proprietary. Ok. We got some, we have secret sauce. Secret sauce, yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. I respect that. . Okay so the, and then what, like on this mass, it has a little strip of unidirectional part of the way I think it stops at some point. Oh, that's just for fun. That's another one of those pictures. . Ok. That's another thing along with these co funky colors and stuff like that. Yeah. . Okay. Cool. All right, so yeah, what else about the foils that's, that you wanna mention that's unique about your foils? I'd say what's unique is you don't have to do anything. They're plug and play. In, into as Mike was saying before, the incidents, you don't really have to adjust it, especially not with wing surfing relative to kite surfing. The speeds and the balance is a little bit different. So the, our foils are definitely just go have fun. And in my opinion, the less you do something to it, the better. A lot of people ask like, how should I sand it? How should I, eh just don't do anything. The less is, the less you do, the better. . And then I would say one unique characteristic that a lot of people tend to say or be surprised by is just how easy they are to use. I think a lot of people since they know we come from a racing heritage, are maybe afraid that, oh, maybe the foils are like, difficult to use, or something like that. But the reality is a good race foil is easy to control cause that gives you the confidence to then push it and go fast. And it's no different with all our wing foils as well. They're just easy to use. . Another thing is I'm basically demoing the foils to anybody who's interested to hop on it and usually. , all it takes is once and some people have to order it right in and there because it's lot speedier, less drag, more stable, more fun just to use it than anything they tried before. I, we have people which claim they have tried everything there is on the planet made and they say, yeah, we just buy yours and  multiple models just because it feels unique. Yeah, Alan Ez actually on this interview he talked about the Mike's lab foils and winning a race with it last summer on Maui against all the young guys and stuff like that. So that kind of convinced me that, okay, I gotta try one of these foils. . And yeah, definitely what you said about the, being able to control it. Basically every foil has that kind of a max, it seems like a maximum speed that's built in almost. And you want to try to get as get and stay as close as you can to that maximum speed and then Yeah, the how easy it's to control it at that speed is really important because yeah, I mean it's hard to push it to that limit if it's really hard to control it at high speeds. Makes sense. Yeah. . Okay. And what about the fuselage length? I guess that's just something you tested and came up with a good length there. That may have been the worst design feature because again, we have to have it made out of aluminum to be able to properly assemble the mold and build it and cook it. And coming from very short fuselages on kite oils, wind surface will try to use and they were not happy. So it kept growing from super short kite fuselages to super long over one meter for windsurfing, fos. And then winging came on the scene and now we started trying the windsurfing on a wing board wing foil, and that was way too long. So this whole harmonic, the fuselages was very frustrating because I had to have so many molds made and then you still have to test it and people get better. The wings sizes, like the foil wings get smaller, bigger, and they work differently with each other. And then the wings, handheld wings, they get better, faster, and different size. Push differently on a four. So that's definitely very frustrating or worse. But now it settled in for each wing. I like to use certain length and it seems to work. Yeah, that's not to say it's not gonna change still, but hopefully. And yeah, and I mean there's different geometry configurations based on what front and rear wing we have. And then one general comment I'll make a big difference between wing foiling and kite foiling is there's just so much more based on people's local conditions as well. In the sense that with kite foiling, when we were developing the stuff, the kind of mentality was if it can work well in San Francisco, it's gonna work well everywhere. But the reality is with wing foiling is you've got, one guy who wants, a shorter mass because the amplitude of his waves. And then you've got another one who wants open season high water, another guy who wants a longer fuse because that's what he likes and is used to, and another guy who wants a little bit of a shorter fuse. Yeah, on one hand things are settling, but it's never gonna settle like it was with kite foiling where you have a very sort of specific size that everybody can get into. I think personal preference plays a huge. Roll here. Interesting. Also, whether it's saltwater or freshwater, that, that makes a big difference in that amount of lift or like the, a little bit, but that doesn't affect our geometry shorts. That does, that's never affected, like what front wing we're gonna pair with what back wing and what fuselage length. But us generally speaking for freshwater, you probably need a slightly bigger foil a little bit with a little bit more lift. Is that right to or because it's hot water's denser, or is that not really that Sure, yeah. In, in, in theory. But then at the same time, it's all trade-offs. So you're talking about such a tiny little window to play in right there. That, that, okay. So it's gonna be a little bit faster in the freshwater

Jason Tangalin and Pono Matthews and the Foil Fever Ohana organized the Foilers of Aloha Classic foil contest on Kauai, held on Nov. 26th, 2022. The event was blessed with great conditions, a stoked community of foilers and next level performance in the waves. This interview contains drone footage of the contest, the second half also has footage documenting our 3 day trip with the crew from Oahu, we scored good wing foiling conditions on the Friday before the event. If you can, watch it at high resolution on a big screen, enjoy! Watch the foil surf contest highlights video here: https://youtu.be/BUQSkESvnjg We hope you liked the video, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the blueplanetsurf YouTube channel, we post a new video every Saturday morning, Aloha! Please come visit one of our shops on Oahu: Hale'iwa shop and rental location: Blue Planet Hale'iwa 62-620F Kamehameha Highway Haleiwa, Hawaii 96712 Tel (808) 888 0786 Open daily, 9 am to 5 pm http://www.blueplanetadventure.com Honolulu store- - Hawaii's SUP and Foil HQ: Blue Planet Surf 1221 Kona St Honolulu, Hi 96814 Tel (808) 596 7755 open 10 am to 5 pm Hawaii Time, closed Wednesdays and Sundays http://www.blueplanetsurf.com Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bpsurf/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blueplanetsurf Find Paradise Aloha! Transcript: Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet Show. I know it's been a while since I posted the last show, but today's show is awesome. You don't wanna miss it if you love foiling. And I also have two more interviews scheduled. I'm really excited about those. One is with Mike's lab, Mike and Stefano, they make some of the fastest foils available. I just got one after waiting for many months for it, and I'm excited to try it and talk about it on that show. And then also I have an interview scheduled with Ken Winter, who I've been get trying to get for a very long time. He's a former windsurfing world champion and the designer of the wings at Duo Tone. So I'm really excited to talk to him about wing design and so on. So stay tuned for those two episodes. And today's show is all about the Foil Fever Ohana, Jason Tangalin and Pono Matthews, the organizers of the Foyers of Aloha Classic event, which was held last weekend at Kalapaki Beach, which had some of the most amazing performance and conditions in any foil contest to date. So you don't wanna miss it. And if you have a high speed internet connection, You are gonna want to watch it at full resolution on a big screen cuz the footage is amazing. But of course you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app. During the interview, I only played the footage from the contest, which is of the first half of the interview. And then we just kept talking story for a long time. So I also included footage from our first day on Kauai, where we had two really good wing foil sessions, some really good footage from of wing foiling on Kauai in the second half. And then also the day after the contest, some surf foiling mark Surf foiling at Kak Beach. So I really hope you enjoy this episode of the Foyers of Aloha Classic. And without further ado, please welcome Jason and Pono from the Foil Fever Ohana. Welcome Jason and Pono to the Blue Planet Show. Thanks so much for being my guest today. Yeah, no problem. Right on. So yeah, I just got back last weekend you guys had that awesome contest at KAK Beach and the conditions were amazing. I was just telling Jason, I think it was, probably the best foil contest yet, in terms of the performance to a whole nother level and then the conditions and everything. Just an amazing event. And yeah, congratulations on putting together this awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. And then also, just the whole community that you put together, all the people that are involved in it and the, the party afterwards with food and everything. And it was, it is just a, it was just a great experience for everybody. And myself and a few others from Oahu we went over there to actually to do the, do wind race. And then unfortunately that the wind just died. Like we had super strong wind the whole week before, and then the week of the contest had just died off. Yeah. God, that's God telling us. Okay. One day's good enough for you, . Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, talk a little bit maybe about all the work that's involved in putting together contest like this. It starts with the big thing is trying to get the permits and we can't really do anything put anything out on social media to receives the authorization from Koi for us to get to put on a contest. But this year we tried to put out a little bit more social media than usual. We knew it was gonna come to be a lot of hard work cause of the first year we did it, it was a lot of hard work. But I don't know. It worked out making the shirts, getting all the sponsors. Initially on our first contest, we made it work. So Koi was the host. We made it where 60% of the competitors was from Koi, their hometown. And then 40% is spread it all over the state in California and Texas to give the local boys their an opportunity to join. And there was a lot of 'em that did the first contest that wanted, they wanted to just watch on this one. So it allowed me to invite a lot more from the state, which was good. And I try to, we try to invite invite the best of the best, and from the first contest to now, three years later the progression has gone on a whole nother level that we never thought it would ever be, because on our first one we're like, oh, I can't wait for next year. Yeah. I was like, but three years later it's a whole new world, that's for sure. Yeah. So the first one the first inaugural event was in 2019. And then basically, Whole pandemic came in the way. And then, so you this is really the second contest you guys are holding and Yeah, like you said the whole yeah, the performance just went through the roof, it seemed it just yeah, it's like crazy how exciting it was to watch the whole thing. Yeah. But, okay and I have a whole bunch of video. I posted that video with the highlights and then I made a longer video for this interview that we, we can show it and talk about it, but we still want to make it fun to listen to as a podcast as well. But I'm gonna actually just start screen sharing while we're talking. So that way welcome to comment on the video or just talk about the, your, whatever we're talking about. But I'm just gonna play this in the background. So this was the contest events item I'm just gonna play versus that video of the highlights. And can you guys see the video? Okay? Yes, you can. That's JD Irons. Okay. . So yeah, just actually let's talk a little bit about the conditions, cuz it, like the day before and the day after, it was just normal small waves and then this day was just yeah. Let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. The day before we were all there doing the, we had the beach. On Friday. So we saw some other guys out there practicing and we were like, oh, there's some waves. It's like normal cak waves kinda slow. Me and my uncle and some of the other guys were talking and we were we hope there's waves tomorrow. Cause we weren't too sure. Like we never anticipated this swell to hit. Some of us were talking about it like, oh, okay, there's a big north swell and we know kak will get it if we have that trade winds also. And then Friday, I think we're talking about how the the soil is actually gonna switch directions for more northeast well, so we're like, oh, okay, we're definitely gonna have waves. But the trippy part about, its when we got there at 30 in the morning, I believe to set up the canoe club and then all we see is just water, covering water and boulder's big, huge rocks just covering up the road and we can hear the waves breaking over the brick wall. And we're like, we look at each other and we're like, oh my goodness, it's bombing it. It's gotta be really good. So that , I think that was the most exciting part, was just seeing that sunrise come over the mountain and just seeing the sets just rolling. And it was just definitely un unbelievable for all of us. I think we never anticipated it. It all worked out in the end, swallow all day long. Good waves. Yeah, and kak too. It's like the whole place is a little bit almost like an am amphitheater where like everyone's sitting around watching and and just the crowd, the, like the whole, the audio from the crowd. I wish I had recorded that to put with the video cuz it was just like cool to , hear all the comments and the cheers and whatever, it was just, yeah, it was just an experience to, to everyone was super excited about, the whole contest and watching every ride and like cheering everyone on. So that was definitely a good part of it. And a lot lot of good white pods, like this one . Yeah. That was me. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah, that was a good one. So a lot of, there was like a lot of kinda sick double ups Yeah. Where the thing just like would drop out from underneath you, it seemed right? Yeah. That's from the lower tide. Huh? So it's crazy because the last time we had a swell, like this was hurricane in Wow. It was never this big, and we didn't anticipate how glassy it would. Because the first contest, it was as big as this, but it wasn't glassy. It was really windy, very stormy. So all the really good guys got it was very hard for them. And that's why the guys, they're so used to it. They got really, they did really good on that one home advantage if, you know that wave, right? Yeah. It gets a, it gets tricky out there. Especially with this kind of swell too. And on that low tide, it was super shallow out there. Like some of these sets when we had to duck dive, we're duck diving on dry reef. So we would get stuck on the reef trying to duck dive and just get smashed. Yeah. Oh my God. I think Kane actually did a a bottom turn and he hit reef Wow. On one of his waves. Yeah. So it was shallow, like no one knew it was that shallow on the inside. Yeah. On this video I put in as much as I could at trying to get everybody's rides on there. Like even, some of the not so perfect rides and all the wipe outs and stuff like that. Just so you can see a little bit how it definitely was a pretty challenging, the conditions were pretty challenging. There's a lot of a lot of wipe outs, a lot. The takeoff was tricky cuz you couldn't take off too far inside, cuz then it backed off and then, but yet, so you had to be in just the right place to take off. But yeah, maybe talk a little bit about the conditions and challenges. So on the high tide it's a little bit easier to take off at. We call this shoulders, it's called. And so in the beginning of the heat or the beginning of the contest, a lot of guys was taking off on the outside. But when that low tide came in, a lot of guys like Jack was smart. He would stay way inside, do a chip shot, and then go out and catch that one big wave. Because that's the one that everyone was looking at from the start, taking out that big bottom turn. Pono and I think JD was in the, on the outside, local guys was on the outside trying to paddle into it, which, it helped them. But then like I know one of the wave. The wave that the, was, that 3 43 wave dropped the wipe out . But then what they didn't see was your drop into that wave, that drop into that wave was heavy. So for him to take that drop and you can't really, yeah, the floors are seeing it from the judge's point, but they're not really, for some reason, they weren't looking at those type of critical drop-ins. They were waiting for the second wave on seeing what, because it's oh, okay, that's gonna see what he got. And those three for three was probably the best three wins I've ever seen. Whole time. That was literally one after another . Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. But yeah, if you seen Ponos drop, cause like I said, Pono and JD Irons was hanging on the outside trying to take out yeah, that was more my mentality. Cause this is a spot I always foil, so I look for those steeper takeoffs, those more critical sections on the, those takeoffs. Cause if you stick those takeoffs, it's a lot harder to do compared to a chip in shot. For me, that was my mentality to try to take off as deep as I could. And if I I make it. If I don't try. But yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I think for some reason it's like I, I played the same video  over and over here. Wait, I s's a great thought. Think I the wrong one here. This is be exciting . It's pretty dope. And I was watching it on my phone and I was like, so now I'm watching it on the big screen. I'm like, Ooh, wow. It looks way more heavy. , I gotta plug it through my, to my big tv. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I rendered it in high resolution, like for k I think so, so it should be pretty cool to watch on the big screen too. So sorry. I had the was playing the, just the short version. But yeah. So in this one I just tried to put as much footage as I had into it. The different riders and stuff, everybody can check it out. I was trying to turn off the volume. That's what happened. Okay. There go. Okay. So actually the question that people had was about the rules. So let's go over the contest rules what were the rules for proning? What were the rules for stand paddling and so on. Maybe go over that a little bit. On our first contest, I got my cousins together, other people that I was. Helped me start the whole foiling evolution going on. And it was it wasn't easy because as a foreigner, that foiling can go in any direction towards the end. We got into, arguments and this and that  we, we needed to just stick with one point. But our idea was to, whatever we do in the contest is what we as a fo fever guys like to see in the real world means of safety wise. So leash required our big thing is not coming in within 20 feet of another person as the other guy, as the other person drops in. And then obviously no dropping in and stuff like that. But those are the two main parts of it. The stand up and everybody else have the same rules except for the stand ups. They, they could use straps if they wanted to. . Yeah, so I talk a little bit about that. Cause I know it's a little bit controversial that the foot strap thing. So why, what is your reasoning behind not allowing foot straps for the, for prone foiling? The big reason is not a lot of guys foil strap. So it'd be unfair for the straps and the straps go against each other. So it was easier for us to have straps because the guys with straps, they would have to buy a board that has straps or put on straps and it would be a lot easier if we went the other way around. And this contest, in the beginning I had an expression session for straps, but in the long run I wanted, we wanted to make sure that we had everybody surf at least twice. So I took up that straps expression session for that one heat. But that's the main reason. Plus, you gotta look at the score too. If versus one guy with straps versus another guy without straps, the whole scoring would be totally different because if the strap guy is doing just a front side whitewater whack, compared to a guy doing a strapless whitewater wax, same thing. I would rather score the guy without straps higher points than the guy with chefs because it's a lot more critical and it's a lot harder to do without straps. Yeah, agreed. And it's amazing that there is so many aerial maneuvers without straps, that Yeah. Yeah. I dunno who it was, but somebody did a back flip. . Yeah. Back flip, double rail, grab back flip . I saw that. I, oh, so and then Mateo was doing 360 airs. Yeah. And he threw the boosting air. So it's not to say that you cannot do these things, do without straps. It's possible. It nof legal's doing it. Why can't we? But yeah, it's just because of that less money spent on trying to get a board with straps. I wanted to make it even for everyone. Yeah. Oh, ammonias. Yeah. And then this was the wave on the right side of the bay. And I was, there was like some ma beautiful barrels coming through Yeah. On that side too. Yeah. This is my favorite RA in the whole wide world for surfing. We won't say the name, but, yeah. Yeah. Let's keep that a secret . Okay. But yeah, just, the waves were just unreal. And they just kept coming too. It wasn't like, just one set, it was just like, it seemed like just, it just, the waves just kept coming and coming. It was pretty impressive. Yeah. Cause the next day we arrived and it was half the, And there was a lot of laws. And same thing with the first contest. It was literally, it was like just as big as this contest and then the next day went completely flat. So I don't know how, or I don't know, God's giving us some good waves and, and some, I believe that the locals are like they should know that every time they know that we have a contest they should know that had waves. So  guaranteed huge waves, right? ? Yeah, I think it's like an overall, everyone, we did the beach cleanup. The camaraderie inside and outside the water, all the support that we've had. All the hard work we put into this, people flying from all over, supporting this contest, supporting the cause for, the maana women in need. I think overall, I think that is what helped us have these kind of waves. To me it, because the day before and the day after was totally different compared to our contest. So I truly believe that it was in all together everybody coming together as a whole for this contest. Made it happen. Yeah, definitely. The good energy brought nature brought it to together definitely. And nobody knows about Thursday Pono and I went out when it was going like 30, 40 miles an hour. Winds we're winging and we paid the price for that one. We were the only two guys out at Calak and we didn't have the right equipment and it was blowing so hard that we couldn't make it back. So we ended up in, we ended up in the harbor, holy back. And I felt so bad. But then I turned around 10 minutes later and I seen pono behind me is okay, good. I don't feel, I don't feel like a retard now. . So what the wind direction, is it kinda offshore there or or which what's the wind direction when it's Tradewinds? Yeah, it's basically straight offshore. But what's a good about Calak is it tells you where the swell is on the island, except for that northwest or a straight west swell. Cause it'll this, when the big salt swell it'll still break, break like this except for that surf on the right hand side. So it'll tell you this bay will tell you where the salt side has. Or the east side waves or the Northeast will have waves. This is a totally indication of the whole island, basically. It's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean it's amazing cuz it seems like a fairly small entrance into the, into that bay for it to catch so many swell directions, and it's same direction that 40 degree direction that Kahan Bay has. Ka Yeah. Which is like a every time. So every time I'm surfing, I'm foing at Kahan Bay. I already know that Kak Bay is going on all Cause we would call each other. We would call each other and be like, what? Kak? Yep. Kak Gateway. What? Kohan? Yep. . . Yep. That's pretty cool. Okay okay, so let's go back to the to the rules cuz actually Derek had some questions about that and stuff too. Like in, in terms of the the scoring criteria, like what were the judges looking for? To, for the points and stuff? Wello I'm sorry, the Danny. Yeah, I know. It's so distraction. It's unreal. Sorry, watching the video. Yeah. points wise was wanted to make it like the surfing, speed, power flow as surfing. I don't see us as, a little bit, we're not a considered ourselves the way we surf the same way or foil the same way we surf. Years, few years ago no one was doing it and then we started to do it years ago and like, why can't we surf it foiled it like a surf surfboard. And I wanted to make sure that the progression goes towards that end. And on the judging scale standing critical traditions the type of waves Jack won the prone for many different reasons, but he is also caught one of the biggest waves of the day. And then so on a foil, the speed is there. So we have no comparison to two surfing. But yeah, we just want to judge it the same way we do surfing style. Ok. Kinda stay more in that critical section in that pocket. And instead of just staying away from all the white water and all that, we wanna see, be able to come back, cut back and hit it if possible. On this day it was, you'd be on a whole nother level if you're cracking it. White water snapped off the top on a bomb set, in front of me too. And he landed it, that's the type of stuff. It's just unreal, but didn't do it in the finals. But yeah, those are the type of stuff that you'll, you rarely see on a foil. And it is good this year, and that's where the progression we thought would be three years ago. And looking at it now, it's, we never thought would well hit white water or doing the airs, Arizona, the foil, but these guys are doing it on pretty big waves now and going for the barrel too. That was going for the barrel. Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. And, but the crazy thing is these guys going for the barrel that they know is gonna close out like pono and two waves in a row, he knows it's gonna close out, but he the adrenaline of the competition and he can, he, I ask him like, when you came out, did you hear the crowd? And he was like, dude, you can totally hear the crowd. I was like, . Oh. Cause you rob, you were out there and oh my gosh. The crowd was just so pumped. It was unreal. Oh yeah. It was a great, I couldn't hear the crowd. It was like a, almost like a live concert or something like that is what it felt like. A little way I could hear, I, it's like reaction more than I could hear you announcing . Oh really? I, how loud it was. Yeah, because I was speechless. That's why , yeah. I mean there was that one where you just like pointed, maybe talk about that one wave where you just like flying down the line. There was backside grabbing the rail and then just so fast that you just couldn't keep the foil in the water. Oh was, that was j. That was jd. Jd, sorry. JD Irons and that wave Ash won him the white ball. Hopeful the wipe out of the day. Cause everybody was getting wipe outs, but the amount of speed that he was getting on that wave and was a big set, we had to give him that. Cause it was just, I felt my eardrums pop when heed. And that was backside too. That's even more crazy. Yeah. More scary. Riley. Yeah, I that's the speed that he was flying on the reve and then just coming to a complete stop. Just what? Hitting the water. Full speed. yeah's. It's not a fun, it doesn't good, but it good to the crowd. . Yeah. You get his ways so good. Okay. Right on. Yeah. So and then originally you had planned for the Sunday to do like a down wind race, right? So where would that have been? Like what was the plan course, if there was wind and yeah. What was the plan for the down race? Cuz Yeah, that was so pri primarily we wanted Caia to end it at the Jeti right here in Coate Bay. Okay. It's about a, I don't know, maybe a 10, 12 mile stretch straight northeast. And it was looking good, but that wind started to come early Thursday, Friday, which thank God, because Saturday would've been my, my God. It would've been so heavy on if the winds came out on Saturday it would be like outta control, but would've been a whole different scene. Yeah. All the boys, you know that no whole new thing is the winging and everyone is really, actually excited about that. But yeah. Bummer that we had to not hold it but it was a good time next time, I guess on Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. I thought this kid, Mateo was a real standout as well cuz he was doing both the standup division and the prone division. Yeah. Yep. And this is his second time doing that. Yeah, same thing. Back in 2019, he won first Inop and second in pro. Yeah. And then it's pretty amazing cuz he went like from, and there was like no break between the heats too. So he went like from the pro standup final straight switchboards and straight into the prone final. Yeah. . And, it happens that way. That's the consequences of trying to enter so much divisions. You're gonna have those moments where you go back to back. But it is not even 20. I don't believe. So I, his energy level is on a, on another level. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. If that was me, I would've been like, oh no, thanks. I'm good. . Yeah. Take. Yeah. What was I gonna ask? Yeah. Oh yeah. The different divisions and the results. Are the, have final results posted somewhere? Sort of. I, did, I post everything but the pro cause we lost the results. . Okay. And I'm still searching for it. I know someone took a picture of it, but yeah, I know. I don't even have the results in front of me. Is it double? No worries. But yeah, I, some maybe I can put, maybe you can send me the results later or whatever I can post on this video as well. But people were asking like, what are the, cause you only announced three finishes or whatever. Alright. But and then yeah, they were asked, people were asking, what about making a two day event? Also the judging like is it's on the side of the bay, almost facing away from the break. Like the, cuz the break, the wave breaks away from the judge's stand. They were saying, is that the best location? Wouldn't it be better to have it judging from straight on or from the other side of the bay? What's your take on that? We got those houses right there on the cliff that we could rent. That's an option. Or maybe to get a room at the Marriott. But it was so much easier accessible for us to do it at the Canoe Club. And people's gotta realize that most of this money's coming out of Pono and i's pocket. So for us to even rent the room at the Marriott, it's probably impossible. . Yeah. I then plus, and then plus if we was to set up like on the beach or something, you would've to think about whole scaffolding, scaffolding on the beach and then getting permits to do that on the beach. It's a lot of things that we would have to think about in order to try to do that. Especially on this day, we weren't expecting for it to have this much barrels to actually hold up nice and clean. A lot of them you were, if you were on it and you went for the barrel, you'd be able to make it up easily. That's good. That's how good and clean it and. With a canoe club. If we didn't have these kind of barrel sections and whatnot, it's a perfect spot to be for the judges to be the top story. And you could actually see everything from there. Yeah. And the judges were upstairs on the second floor too, so you had a pretty good vantage point of the waves from the upstairs. So they they could see, I was up there most of the time and we could see pretty good. only part it was hard was in the morning time when that sun was directly over. We couldn't decisive the color jerseys, but that's it. Especially when they're pumping out. Cause I was up on the top for the first two heats and then guys would be pumping out and then as soon as they turn around to just go straight down, catch a wave, like they get lost in the sun. But as soon as they, as soon as they reach the the break, we could see their jersey colors. . we have to kinda work that out. Be like, Hey, okay, we're not, so we're not judging them on watching them glide into the wave. We're only watching, we're only scoring them on the more critical section when the wave actually breaks. So we have to kind figure that out first thing in the morning. Yeah, that makes sense. We had seven judges, so three judges, three judges, scoring. A head judge and then three spotters. And that's one of the things we learned from the first contest to make sure we have a spotter per judge just to call out. Because, and that's the reason, one of the reasons why we kept the two for one max per ride. Cause otherwise guys like Jack and Mateo would be doing 10 for once and yeah. So actually let's talk about that a little bit. So basically the rule was you can take off on a wave, ride it, and then pump out and get a second wave, but that was it, right? You couldn't get more than two waves in one to for one score, right? Correct. Correct. And the reason for that is cause just to make it more of an even playing field for guys that can't pump like an 18 year old . Yeah, exactly. And then, so on a smaller day you would see like they'll do two for ones. My thought process was like somebody like pono can do so much wa so much turns in on that one wave than they would somebody else is doing two waves. They're doing as much as turns so that it gave everybody that, that chance to score. If that makes sense, but, oh yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I think that rule makes sense. Cuz you don't, yeah. You don't want it to turn just into a pumping contest. Also, then people would probably use bigger foils which don't perform as well on the wave and stuff like that. We're sticking to that whole performance side of Foley. Yeah, I noticed too. On the standup paddle board side, like it seemed like the guys with the really long, the longer boards were got the best scores. Yeah. Because cuz they were able to catch the waves easier and stuff like that. It seemed yeah, I like Dave and Mateo, but that's a big board for Mateo. So board it looked like the do board. Yeah. Cause like guys, Derek looked like he was having a hard time trying to, cause it's so much water moving at that point. Yeah, Derek was on his tiny wing fo board, so it wasn't even to stand paddle board. So yeah, you can double it. Sorry. Him and Nick Ben is always my top two picks, but this day, when it's bigger on a smaller day they would, just tear it up. But because it was so much water moving at that, think that's had a hard time. But the first two places, Nick Bennett the third, but the first two places, Mattel and Daniel. They had bigger boards, so they were catching most of the waves. Yeah. So for prone foiling po talk a little bit about your equipment. What were you using and what would you say would've been like perfect equipment for this day of foil surfing I was riding my Freedom Fusion board. It's like a 4, 5 17, 3 quarters and 28 liters. And then I was writing my fo was access 7 99 front wing with a silly short piece lodge 3 25 progressive tailw wing. A lot of guys were, yeah, a lot of guys were riding that more high aspect kinda wing for that speed. I know a lot of guys was running the lifts. 90, Jack was running, riding the 90. I think we were all planning on riding those smaller wings for just for that speed. And we can carve, but I think the only guy in the prone division that was riding a big wing was Jake. Jake pers Yeah. He rips on the big wings. I think he's the only prone Foiler I, I know of that can rip on a two 10 go foil. Yeah, like a shortboard. And he rips that thing like it's. No other, everybody else was riding those small wings. He was riding a big wing and just ripping on it. That just shows the progression in who you are as a person and what you're capable of. Yeah. And the seven, the 7 99 access, I have that one too for wing filling, but it's a pretty small foil. It has, it doesn't have much drag, but you need to maintain that speed. So it's not that easy to pump. You gotta really keep up the speed, right? Yeah. It definitely needs the speed to keep it going. But once you're in that rhythm, it's all about mainly that rhythm and the technique for your pumping style. , if you can keep that then, you're, you can go for quite a while compared to a, for me I would rather ride a smaller wing than a big wing. In any condition. I even ride over here like one, two foot days. I ride my small wing. Cause I like it super loose, super carv. I can almost ride it like my surf wing as well. That's why. Yeah. And is this more efficient? You have less drag, right? So it's easier to maintain the speed too, because you don't have to work as hard to go faster it seems yeah. Yes. Ooh. And yeah, the two, like what about the holding it over two days? Have you thought about that or I guess the plan was to have one day of surfing and one day of ra down wind racing kind of thing. So we just did it one day. That's how we started it in 2019. And then three months later, we actually had a contest in Maui that we had to cancel three weeks prior cuz of the pandemic. So we had every set up, everything else for Maui, everything was ready to go. That was scheduled for two days. We just kept it down to one day, and then this year we're like, okay let's go ahead and add the the wing race to it. But we're gonna keep the koi one to one day for Calak. . Few reasons. One, I don't wanna take away two days away from the local boys out there. I think one day, one day is long enough, especially on the swell like this. But so COI is always gonna be that one day I call pa and then hopefully the next day is a race. But the Maui if we have an a Maui, it's gonna be at guard rails and those are gonna be two days, two day events. Okay. And then, so yeah, so Maui do you like actually talk a little bit about your plans for the future, because you said that you had something planned in Tennessee next summer, is that right? Yeah, we trying to do a wake foil contest in Tennessee in July on the 14th, 15th, I believe. And I still of wanted to do something in Hawaii in May, whether it's at Kaco or in, or guards on Maui. Okay. So that's the plan. And then back to Koi, the weekend after Thanksgiving. Awesome. Kaka ACO would be cool. That's our backyard, so Yeah, that's, but but for Tennessee, like what, like awake wake foiling contest? How would that work and what would be the criteria and stuff? It's curious. And and that's what we're trying to figure out. So they had an invite maybe about two months ago. Brian grew up then I think it was in Orlando, I believe. And they scored it more like wake style foiling. . So we're gonna try and do that same thing, but have different division. Whether it's strap and strapless, that's gonna be something new to us. We've been doing in the last couple years, doing the whole traveling to the wake side of it. We did a tour last, like a few months ago actually. Just do, went from lake to lake just to see how many people are out there foiling. It's actually unreal the amount of people that's foiling because the, what was it, the surf wake I believe or waking, I should say. Those are starting to go away and now they're starting to foil a lot more. So the competitions right now, it's, especially for the the foil side, it's still fresh and we always wanted to be one of the guys who actually push it out. So we did, did our homework trying to travel around to different, to see what r Wanda talent, and then two, how, what are people doing the bolts they use. I learned, I starting to learn about different type of bolts. The size of the waves how many waves are behind. It's unreal how they do it. So last year we did it at the Wakefest and we got invited to do. Road record. How many boilers behind the wake? I think we only got 16. The, right now the record is 30, 31 or 32, I believe, by the Cohesions. So next year because we were from the 50th state our number is 50. I wanna try to see if I can get 50 guys behind the wake on the foil. Wow. The weekend before Wakefest and then at Wakefest. We're gonna try again. You're gonna give us this past year wake Fest is the first time Wake allowed any other sport in Wakefest, and they gave us two runs per day, which was pretty amazing. Wow. The crowd here was one at Kak was one thing, but they have 1500 wake boats in the water lined up screaming when the foresters came down. And it was such an intense experience. And next year I'll make sure the foil fever. We're gonna go go check it out and put on our contest. My friend Brian from Flight Deck, Tennessee, he's out there and he's doing a lot of the leg work for us. We've been doing it for the last, I don't know, four or five months now. When I called them like the day after this contest and I was like, okay, let's go. Let's get started. Working on the Tennessee contest. So we're gonna putting it out maybe in January. I would say to the public we already got a place to stay. It just, there's a lot more logistics trying to get a the lake because, it's open. Especially the lakes in Tennessee, you have three different states that goes through that lake. So you got guys from Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee that shares the same lake. There's a lot of people on that lake. But most of them Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, you said what, 150 wake boats on the lake or something like that. That sounds crazy. It was cool cuz they were all like tied up to each other. Oh. And it was like a big, it was like the cars, they call it walkie, but it was such a huge crowd and you get the, we stayed on the houseboats that was behind it. It was so intense. So intense. So hopefully on this first one that we do, we know it's not gonna be as big, I don't think any contest, any oil contest that we do is gonna be, can beat this. We said that 2019, but yeah. Saturday was way. Way bigger. It definitely, I think it definitely topped our first contest. Yeah, I just like the waves and the performance both were just, yeah. Just amazing. And I don't think anything like this has helped, been helped before, so it's just really cool to be there in person and see it happen. For sure. Oh, we're happy that you came down. Yeah, me too. I was stoked. Actually one thing I wanted to mention, somebody in the, on my video commented how was I able to get my drone to fly? Because this is a kind of really close to the airport and it's not in the flight line, but it's like in this blue zone, which is a restricted flight area for drones. You're not you need authorization to fly there, . And when I first tried it and I brought two drones and all my batteries and everything like that, and I couldn't get it to work, I was really frustrated cuz I showed up with all my stuff and then I couldn't fly and then cuz I had a DJ I flight controller and then I, I tried all this stuff that, that it said to do and it just kept rejecting my my thing. And then I finally tried my older controller, which works with my phone. And then while I was logged into the d I account using my older controller, maybe I didn't update it or something like that, but for some reason I was able to like self authorize, just go through that and then it worked, I was lucky to be able to fly cuz it took me like an hour to figure out how to make it work. But so basically, yeah, the way I was able to make it work was like self authorizing through my phone being connected to the, the phone controller on the dj Oh. Photo could tell you. Right there. Let me see you right there. That's where Polo's drone is right in this area. I know. I Oh, that was your drone Oneo. Yeah, I think we got pretty close a few times. Yeah. . Yeah. No, my drone is actually in Kak. Oh, in the water. Yeah. So I lost like few months ago, Uhhuh, I was flying it and then it automatically just went to auto landing. While I was out above the water flying, it just started landing, coming down slowly and slowly, almost close to the water. And I tried to shoot it to shore on the sand and it just barely, almost reached the sand, but it landed right in the water and it was like, oh, it's gone. That's, so we spent all day trying to swim for it.  all day for two days. . A lot of times it is usually happy just to get the SD card back with the footage, right? Cause you know the time, once it's in the salt water's probably not gonna survive it anyways. But at least you can get the footage outta it, right? Yeah. Oh yeah. I actually have the footage. It landing in the water. Oh. And it was connected to my phone, so I got the footage from that, cause I was recording that whole flight while it was landing Oh yeah. That's, it's pretty hilarious. Yeah. But yeah, that's something to be aware of that it's actually not an automatic thing that you can find the drone there, . Yeah. It depends on the size of your drone too. Yeah. So I had the airs. It was, it worked until, up until that day. Even the Minis, I know Chris Christian Park, he was flying his drone, so I think he had the DJ J Mini. Yeah. So he was able to fly it out there. It depends on the size of drone you have. Yeah. I guess that might be it too. But yeah. And then I also wanted to mention Alex, a GU from Gofo was there with a, I guess he had a telephoto lens and was shooting from the beach. And he posted a video too on YouTube that couple days ago. And that one has you can hear the comments from the crowd and the crowd cheering and stuff like that, which is definitely, that, that part is missing from the drone video for sure. That you don't get that. Oh yeah. The audio from the crowd is pretty cool. And then announcing Yeah. You get so pumped. You hear the crowd going, I was telling people the last few days, it's if we didn't have the contest and it was just a free for all regular session, you wouldn't see guys be pulling in like that or doing the crazy stuff that they were doing Saturday. But because these guys are like pushing each other, and that's a cool thing about the foyers, it's just no matter if you're in competition or not, everyone's pushing and hollering on the side yelling go. It's such a cool vibe, the spoilers, and that's hopefully, it's, it lasts a little bit longer. But even though, in the competition, the boilers we're something different, we're something special, I believe. I agree with that. Totally. And what do you think what's the cause of that? Like why is, why are boilers so much more open and yeah, like more open to sharing and just enjoying it together versus most of these foresters are surfers and in the lineup, on a surfboard you can sit in a water for an hour and might catch two waves. Where on a foil you can sit in a corner, tiny half a foot, white. And have the time of your life and catch two for one, three for one and or whatever. But when you get done, you're so tired, you're like, you're resting for 15 minutes anyway. Yeah, but, and it's so funny cuz I was pointing head and one of the uncles, the locals, and he's at the top of the hill and we, I walk up to the top and he goes, how come every time I see you spoilers, you guys always smiling Oh yeah, remember that? And yeah, I was like and I told him, cause after an hour session, avoiding to climb up that cliffs hill and make it , we're like, oh, our legs are so tired. And the last thing we wanna do is climb up that cliff. But it's true. All the floaters you see the positive attitude, the positive feedback from everybody trying. You'll never have a surfer go, Hey, come here, let me teach you how to serve where porters they're welcoming. I wanna teach you because they know the consequences of porters. We wanna teach and we do. We have free lessons, we have free demonstrations to the public that we put on once in a while for the whole safety. How can we tell these guys don't do this, don't do that when or when we are not out there actually teaching 'em how the right way of doing it. Because it is dangerous. Yeah. And even if we're somebody that has a lot of experience surfing and they think they can just jump on a foil and learn it easily because they already know how to surf sometimes that's the most dangerous because they're like, yeah. They you have that mentality already. Yeah. Mentality that they don't need any advice or whatever. True. But you can be on a one foot wave, on a foil and no matter what, you have to be on your toes. You start to be, you gotta be humble the whole time. And whether it's 20 feet or one feet the same humbleness is exactly the same. Yeah. Either way. Either way. You can end up with 20 stitches on your head if you know what you're doing. True. Either you'll get the stitches or some you'll do it to somebody else. That's what we are trying to avoid. I think something worth mentioning is that despite, everybody like having pretty gnarly wipe outs, in the most critical section, everything like that one and the foil Yeah. Tumbling around your head and stuff like that. Like nobody got injured, right? There was no injuries in this event, right? Or were they, did they miss so. There was one somebody grabbed a foil, I think by his hand. Oh. That was it. I forget who it was, but oh, was it Kane? Maybe. I'm not sure. Got the hand sliced open or something? His foot. Yeah. Oh, his foot was his foot. Okay. I know you keep on his foot. Yeah. Somebody contest or whatnot, but I saw Kane the next day we was out foiling again at Cak. , not bad, but yeah. Anyways so it looks really dangerous, but I guess if you if you know what you're doing and know how to avoid the foil it can actually be relatively safe, I would say. Oh, so the number one rule and when I taught pono how to foil when we got started and how I started that, these words will always stick to my head. And I always tell the same thing to anybody who wants to learn how to foil and foiling is, it's not how you foil, it's how you fall. And so when we started to learn have the confidence in falling hitting the white water, like I have full confidence on hitting the white water because I have full confidence on how I know how to bail, but I know how to. Once you start having that tendency of, or not confident in falling, that's basically when you get hurt. Yeah. And you gotta stay humbled. Of course you're gonna get hurt. It's not if it's wet. Yeah. I think the biggest tip for beginners is when you're surfing sometimes, like if you lose your balance and you're starting to fall off, you can catch yourself and you basically try to pull off the maneuver until you hit the water. And if, if you hit the water, then you're, then you crash. But foiling like as soon as you lose your balance a little bit or you feel like the foils not right out underneath you, it's just time to bail out right away and not try to correct it or save yourself in falling. It's a lot easier to come back to catch another wave than get hurt. Wait, couple weeks, , and then For sure. Let's talk a little bit about your background. Like what, how did you grow up and how did you get into foiling and all that? I'm curious Bono yeah, start with pono. Oh. I pretty much grew up here on Coi, here on Oahu a lot. Was back and forth between islands. Fondest memory of be learning how to surf was probably at Huy Little Beach here on Kauai. At the river mouth. Yeah, trying to learn how to surf. And then I got into body board when I moved up to Oahu, body boarded at a spot called tumble Lands in Mali. And then, yeah, and then pretty much moved back here, surf. And then I actually got started with Four Lane back in 20 20 18 from this guy, my uncle he was for before me and then he came over for New Years. Him and Uncle Cleve was like, Hey, you need to try this. So I tried it and I was pretty much hooked. I was watching guys Foley, I call ay for quite a while before I even started and I always was like, wow, that looks so cool, but looks so dangerous. Or maybe that's not for me. Sorry. It was actually Uncle  Cark, I would always see him out on his sub foiling. . I was like just, I think he was like one of the only ones that I actually saw like ripping on a foil so early in the game. Back in what, 2018? Yeah. He was definitely a pioneer, right? Yeah, for sure. He was one of the first guys and then my uncle Jason set me up with a foil and a board. I was pretty much fucked ever since. And still am. It's literally an addiction.  Talk, maybe talk a little bit about your first session. Like how was that , what did you learn on your first session? My first session That what foot waves? Or like 10 foot waves. It's scary. , I, that was the first day. The first, yeah, the first day I landed actually on the rail on my ribs. But the second day was like three to four foots. Oh, . And he couldn't even catch a weight. That's how, three, four foot horns on a perfect day. It gets really double gnarly. Super good. And I wanted to go out there, so I took Bono and he didn't catch. It was gnarly. That was my first of shame. Yeah. And he got humbled so bad. It just, and I got humbled as well too that day. But being his second day and taking him out there that, that was funny. Yeah. So what about you, Jason? Are you from Kauai as well originally or? Yeah, from Coi. I live about this is my home break right surface since I was five years old. And then, I went back first day of Foing what my friends and my cousin then was like, oh, we need to get up or you get you on. Foing was like, okay, I'll just try. I actually waited a few months for me to try it because I knew this is one of the sport that you'll like, so that's why you don't want do it. One, it's really knew how expensive it was and then how addictive it was. We really knew that before we even got one, one of these. It's like one of those sports that don't wanna do it because of that. But once I got on, that's why. Yeah, so I got it away. First base, first time was a kak bit, got super humbled, flew back the next day, went straight to Hawaiian water sports and bought my first set. And I was on the phone with my cousins, kale and Ola, and I was asking, what do you need? And the whole time, the whole drive all the way to a pulled into the parking lot, . And he was telling me all this stuff and you telling me about, you're gonna get hurt, this and that. And so that's how I started. And then just got, and then I ended up just pointing Queens after I came back. I got my gear. I learned how to fo like queens and pops and canoes. So what was your first foil? What did you start on? That was the first foil was John Mu bar, the Nubi and the eba Go Foil, Eva fo, which, it wants to fly it. The those right there, that set just wants to fly. So I have no problem learning on one of those for sure. It just doesn't wanna fly too fast. ? Not, yeah. Compared to what these guys are running and what we are running nowadays, it's a whole new ball game you have to, the progression, like from 2019, the progression, yes. Talent and confidence on your foil. But the gear has gone through, I mean it's so crazy the progression on the gear, the foils and the boards. I remember the boards back then. I remember one guy came out for real, the foam, a Clark foam had says Clark Foam on it and he basically no shape it, nothing. He didn't take a sand to it. He glassed the foam and stuck a underneath. I mean it was here in Oahu and I was laughing, but he was writing it. It was super flex of course, cuz there was like no carbon back. It was just straight stringer. It didn't last very long, but but I thought it was pretty classic, but the boards back then was just, yeah. Compared to now it's different. And then Oh, totally. So what do you ride now? What's your for foiling? So my setup is a magic 8 0 8 board made by Glen thing. Four, five left 17 and a half at 28 meters is my board. And then my foils are, we write access like the 82 82 centimeter use of mass and with the city short. And I ride a little bit bigger wing now cause gain a little bit weight as like the seven 40, I believe, the seven 40 PSC and a three 50 wing. Those things are so good for us. , a lot of people ask especially beginners is like what foil or what equipment should I buy? And that's one of the biggest, I wish, my cousin guys helped me, but now we have more options. Oh yeah. Every day there's new equipment coming in and like Honolulu, every other guy here shapes sports. You can get boards all over now, but guys like ing, guys from Freedom, those guys learned in the beginning the hard way, but now they've, they learn so much. And now the progression and how solid the boards are and how light the boards are, it's unreal. Super cool. Yeah. And then people, a lot of times people think that the board's not that important cuz you're just writing the foil, but it, the board does make a big difference cuz Yeah, like that the board is what kind of gets you up on the foil right in the first place. So without the right board, it's hard to even get up on the foil. Oh, for sure. And then in terms of length have you gone a little bit longer? It seems like for a while everybody's going as short as possible and then now people are using a little bit longer boards again? Or what's been your experience or progression? Oh, exactly. So we all started what, 3 10, 10 and wider was that 22 inches wide and like 35 liters. But now it's, the length Glen was like, oh, a little bit wider or longer and less say, okay, but I gotta come more narrow to make. For what I wanted to do. . So we went all the way down to 17 inches wide and the length we did go about, but yeah, three, four inches longer. And then we just started to pull in the leaders, the volume on our boards. Cause we noticed that you can feel the foil even more, it's way more responsive. Having that tail dropped in on the other bit. But yeah, it's insane. Yeah. Progression, the equipment, I for and for wing footing. Have you guys been wk foiling at all or are you getting into that at all, or? Yeah, not so much. Oh we've both definitely been wing foing. I can say was hooked on wing. Cause all he talks about every time is, Ooh look get. And it's barely that's yeah. What happened there? It looks like it is like the bottom dropped out from underneath you. Huh? So I told him that way. If he went, if he had a longer fuselage, he may, he would, he might would've had a chance. That one. Cause the shorter fuselage makes it more like a more loose on the front and back. So if, when you see him drops. He's going so hard and he was trying to correct it, and the thing just went, woo. Oh, was that the double up? Yeah. That one was crazy. So on that wave, that was the finals. So as the tide was, was lower dropping, I could see that the barrels was more like, it was a lot more wide open, more on the inside of the the brake.  Away from shoulders where everybody was taking off. So it was forming the a frame section more on the inside. So I was like, oh, okay, if I pump out, let me see if I can connect and get one of those. So as I'm going out and pumping it, I was like, ah, don't, I don't have a set here, but I see this wave. So its like, oh, ok, I'll just go for it. And as I'm pumping, I see a double up. I'm like, and I'm already behind the set. So I'm like, oh my goodness. What am I gonna do? So in that video, there's like a split second where I looks like I'm relaxed, but I'm like, should I go or should I not? And then in that split second, I'm like, ah, just go for it. . Yeah. It looks like you, you try to drop the nose down into the way, like you try to just go straight down the face, right? Yeah. Straight down. And try to correct it at the bottom of the way. But I was like, way too late. I was like, oh, crashed Yeah. Yeah, that was definitely tricky and there's a few times where you could see there were actually like sometimes the guys on the wave and then the wave right in front, there's another wave right in front breaking, and then they're yeah, it's and then doubling up or whatever. It was definitely a little bit, definitely tricky, right? Not just a smooth ride . No, everybody stepped, everybody who was out there in the waters stepped up their game. It was un unreal on how much progression there was. And we were all cheering each other on, like I was in, when I was in my heats, I was cheering on the guys that was in my heats, cheering on the guys that was in the next heat. We were trying to push each other and just, everybody's just charging us just sending it. It's so unreal to just see that, like in the water. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've never seen that many people trying to pull into barrels on it's every other way. So we like try to duck under the lip and there was a few, actually a few rides that people pulled off. Fully barrel and then coming back out. It, I don't think I really got those, but definitely a few. It looks so perfect. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah. We were actually talking about maybe renting a house on the, on that other side of the bay. Oh, that was the, when you have your event and then maybe we could have the judges sitting on the balcony there, Oh yeah. And then of course, mother Nature's gonna provide waves again. , cause usually the waves like break further on the inside too, not, it's not always breaking that far out. Yeah. But anyways, yeah, I mean it's just a beautiful setup too. And then, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the other division. So you had the gro division. What ages were the Gros? 14 and below s. Okay. And who, who won that? The gro division. Caden Pritchard from Maui. Cool. Yeah, I actually interviewed Caden for a wing full interview. He's also a really good wing foiler. He's, yeah, he's good. He's a charger for Little Gro. He's a grab it's charge. Yeah. Very cool kid. You had the, sorry, go ahead. The women's? , Glen was my pick on that. When every time, when the waves are this big our pick is always Glen now. Cause she's the only one that I know that charges super hard. She's charging all the way to I don't know, six, seven months pregnant. It was. And then and we had the Capona League, the 60 and above. Cause we did that one for the people of Koi. Cause a lot of uncles actually foiled at the spot  and they always just wanted to, I'm not gonna put them against somebody like Al or yeah. Mateo or whatever the case would be. But, so it was actually really good that we actually ended up having a division for them. So it was pretty good. And KA is 60 and over, right? Yeah, 60 and over. Okay. What's out? I think a Coco makes 60 next year. Yeah. So they gotta be careful. , you can enter that one next year. . Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the boys are down. So there's upstairs where the judges were sitting at, up on the top of the new hall. Oh, there you go. Oh, and then, yeah, afterwards you had a cool event. Lots of cool prizes and everything. Nice dinner. So that was cool too. Live music, everything. So yeah, that was a great event. I have to say. You guys did a really good job and I know it's a lot of work to do something like this thank you for putting it on and yeah, making it no was so cool. Especially the first competition that we've done. In 2019 we put this on po I went to po you're gonna contest. Okay, let's do it. And out of all everybody that on the staff Ohana, my sister, it was my sister, my mom my, my daughters. None of em. Foil, none. I won't foil none of 'em really serve the competition contest wise, nobody's done it. Initially I was in the contest of 2019 and then my buddy Cle, the head judge is like, there's no way you can foil this contest. We are gonna need help . So after that I, these guys told me I, I'm not allowed to foil any of our contests ever. So that's how we, now it's, it was just funny cuz like everybody's doing this. The only guys that foil is the judges. That's the only people on the staff that actually foils, which is cool. Which is amazing, having that support like we just, we volunteered them, not volunteered, them kind help us out with the contest and they're all up for, they saw our vision and the supported us from the get go. To have that support is like unreal. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So do you think I guess here on Oahu, like the foil contests are usually kind of part of other like the buffalo surf meat, they add like a foil division and stuff like that. But it seems yeah, it seems like there aren't really that many real surf foiling competitions yet. Yeah. Yeah. We are the I believe we were the first one ever in 2000. Yeah. A full foil contest. Yeah. Yeah. Because like you said, Rob, it was a part of part of Duke's, part of the buffalo. So this is the first time I think we had, I didn't know the contest I did with you. Was it the Pumping? Yeah. The hundred Waves contest or whatever. Hundred man one I think was the boys man one. And that was awesome. That was that. Oh, you guys got this on. So I actually, I was gonna play this kind of do a separate video outta this, but this was like when we got there on Friday, the day before the event we went straight from the airport to to this spot and it was like blowing. We like all excited about, went out in the water and I. Good wing foiling session and yeah, and I only brought my wing foiling gear. I didn't even bring any, anything else, but cuz I was looking forward to trying to do that down downward race, oh yeah. Glad you guys scored at Hon Ma Beach. Yeah. Was a super fun spot too. Why didn't we go there? ? You didn't wanna, you wanted to go call. Oh, okay. But yeah, I'll probably do this, share this another time, but, so yeah, get back to you guys and but yeah so let's talk a little bit more about foiling and like for people that are getting into foiling, want to wanna get better. Like what are your pointers or like what were like some breakthroughs for you or like good tips that you can share with people, both of you behind the boat, in the river or a lake, getting food. I think that's the easiest and safest way to, to learn and the fastest, instead of trying to take off on waves, not knowing how actual foil works. And then, yeah, like on a bigger board, bigger foil to it, it it'll help you get up easier and faster instead of a smaller setup where, It's a little bit harder to get up on foil at first. Once, once you figure out how the foil will react to like your foot placement, your body weight, front to back foot ratio, all that you have to take into consideration in order to get the right height on foil. And then just trying to be safe on the foil. I I think each time you go out every session, you gotta remember okay, this didn't work. Oh, okay, wait, this work. Okay, let me try this. It's a step by step process. You can't just go out one session and be like, oh, I'm ripping, or I know everything about Foing because the next session you'll get humbled really quick. Yeah. And it seems like a lot of people they try it a couple times and then they just give up. They find it too challenge. Yeah. With foing you have to be like consistent, go every day. Cause I think when I first started, I think I went six months straight every day, seven days a week. literally limited. Yeah. Until I got it like fully down. I think the more consistent you are, the faster you learn. And the better you become at a whole new sport. Just the feeling alone gets you out there in the water just to be up on foil and just flying. Just fly straight. Just flying straight is always fun. I think that was the main goal from like the beginning. So for me, I forward at c Coffee, that's where I learned. And then my goal in the beginning was always try to make it to shore. Just go straight and make it to shore without getting her . Yeah. What about you Jason? You got some tips? Yeah. So once you get on, so I actually, when I teach people, I take on my ski and I have a six, six blue planet that I actually use to to teach. And to me, that's one of the really good board to learn cause it's long enough and it's a lot easier to control. They can actually stand up on the thing without lying down with knees, doing all, you bypass all that part, go to the stand up, hold the rope and you just take off. So I always tell guys when we start to learn is everybody just wants to fly and they wanna stay up there, it's like everybody wants to be like 10 steps ahead, we need to step back a little bit, I always tell like one of guys like, crawl, walk, run. There's no rush. Once you can get up on foil, I tell the people to push it all the way back down and then go back up again and then push it all the way back down. That way, how much pressure each leg or are you standing in the right spot to push it down to control, learning how to control once you get up to that 36 inches or whatever left your real foil is because that's when you start to get hurt and when you start to breach. So always if you start to control yourself at like 12 inches, go up, go back down and just keep on doing that, then by a time when you get to your 30 inches, whatever case you have control to stay at that spot. But that's one of the, one of the other things that, that we like to teach too. Cause there's no rush in learning how to but expect nowadays you got, these 10 year old kids learning how to foil on the very first day. Yeah. Yeah. I thought one. Go ahead. Yeah, I think part of that is just, yeah the equipment's so much better and more dialed in. And if you have, if you have the right equipment and the right instructions, then yeah, it's possible to learn it quickly, especially for young kids that just pick it up easily. Yeah. But yeah, that, I think that Sam pa always say, stay low and in control, right? Low and in control. Low and in control. Still to today, if I'm coming down the line, he'll say those exact same words to me.  Sam never changes. He'll, no matter who how good you, and that's the thing we talked to with Sam PAs we don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, you're going to get humbled or hurt somebody. So you got to stay on your toes at all time and, be focused on a foil by you being on a board. But once you get up, you have to stay focused which is amazing. I think that's why we're so addicted to this sport, because n

Wing Foil Interview: Sam Loader with PPC Foiling is back on the Blue Planet Show Aloha friends! This is Robert Stehlik, Welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, where I interview wing foil athletes, thought leaders and designers right here in Honolulu, in my home office. And in today's show, I'm interviewing Sam loader, the owner of PPC foiling based in Auckland, New Zealand. We're talking for the second time on the boot planet show. In the first interview, we went more into his background, his business and foiling scene in New Zealand. This time we go over, what's new over the last year and all the equipment he's coming out with. We talk about the soar boards, his new wings the foil he has planned. So stay tuned. You can watch it right here on YouTube with all the good visual content, or you can just listen to it. Audio only as a podcast to search for the blue planet show and your favorite podcast app. Okay. So without further do, here is Sam loader, right? Sam, welcome to the blue planet show back to the boot planet show for the second time. How is everything going for you? Cheer, Rob, thanks for me back. Yeah, it's been it's been a while since the last show. It seemed it seems like, yeah, it was actually a lot's happened. Now it's been going, it's been going really well. It's been going really well. Been extremely busy. I've never been this busy in my life, but At the end of the day, at least we're at least I'm designing, foils something that we love. And so yeah, it's just been pretty full on since so much has happened since last interview that then we it's it's crazy yeah, so hence why the catch up  yeah. So it's, it is great to catch up again and like for anyone listening if you haven't watched the first show, if you're interested in, at Sam's background and so on, just watch that one, we're gonna talk more about your business, your equipment just what we've learned over the last year with what's just changed what's in the coming up in the future. And so on. That's what I wanted to discuss with you mostly. And I have a few questions also from Dan and a few other guys in New Zealand. So I'll try to get to those as. And gonna try to keep it in within an hour or so if we can, but we'll see.  Will you call me up on my birthday? So you a bit of be worth it, Rob? Happy birthday. Yeah. I hope you, are you taking the day off after this? I know it's morning time for you in Auckland, right? Yeah. Honestly, I want to take the day off and I want to say I am, but I'm probably not. I'm probably just gonna do some emails. Probably gonna cover the shop a wee bit. We've got the guys coming in the afternoon. I think Josh is coming in and but yeah, later on, I'll chill out. We'll go out for dinner, stuff like that. Pretty cold in New Zealand now. Yeah. It's winter time for you. Yeah it's dropped a lot. It's certainly not summer anymore, but it's, there's still breeze, so there's still good conditions for testing. And by drop, it's only dropped to about a three, two wetsuit, so it's it's not too bad down south has got some snow, so we've gotta go down there a little later. We, the skis up maybe take a win to the mountain, I always wanted to do that, so yeah. So I'm sure you have a lot of people coming into your shop asking for that are beginners just getting into it. So I, I just wanted to always start the show with some tips for newbies people getting into the sport beginners, what do you tell people? What, what are some tips for people getting into the sport? Yeah, since, I don't know how long it's been since it started, but. I think right now, because there's so much information out there. Like when someone walks in the store, we, we just, my game plan is to try and simplify the whole process. So it's quite, it's overwhelming. When you look around, you can see Royal boards, wings, and people just go, whoa, where do I start? But we've written down like a, the board, the wing really simple, we've actually got some super high volume boards, like one 30 S and stuff. We're doing like a bit of a trade and deal at the moment, so they can buy a bigger board and then they can progress on that for around six months. And then we can switch them out to a board that they're gonna, have for a longer period of time. And then we'll recirculate those bigger boards. It's maybe a bit of a stuff up on my part by having too many big boards in production  so we're just making the opportunity to yeah. To it's just in favor of the New Zealand customer, to make their learning experience a a little quicker. And then yeah, I think when you get the w we've got three, four brands in the shop and then we just, it comes down to a little bit of budget and a little bit of, what the customer wants to spend. So it's. Yeah I think so what volume, like for a beginner, like getting into, do you do you put, send them right out on a floorboard? Do you tell 'em to use a windsurf board first with a dagger board? Or like what and then from the first board, like what kind of volume do you recommend for beginners? Usually? If it's like the one board, I would just say 20, 20 liters above body weight. But we've got Ellen down here at the lake. He's doing lessons and cuz we've got these high volume boards, like 1, 1 30 S and one 40 S we, they can just jump on those. Even if the ad kg they're gonna be super buoyant, they're gonna learn the wing probably quicker than being on like a hundred liter board. And then they can just come back and switch that board out. But I think now it's 20, 20, 30 liters, maybe about body weight. I think the whole trend's obviously coming down boards are getting smaller. Yeah, I think the 50 to the eighties, the kind of the common sizes actually most of mine went all around the world and didn't come here. So I ran out  but yeah, it's I Def I definitely think the whole process for the new guy coming into sport, new girl, come into the sport. It can be simplified a lot, they don't have to have, three wings, three foils two boards. It can be, down to one of each and then they progress and then they come in and get some feedback. Yeah. You want, you wanna be able to get people on going without spending too much money too? Yeah, I always, exactly the main thing I've just noticed people just getting too smaller board, too smaller foil. If you increase those two factors, then the. Process is just gonna be so much easier and so much more fun. And then in terms of learning you said there's somebody doing lessons on a lake kind of smooth water. Like any recommendations you have for the location and then any tips for technique or getting started? Yeah. Yeah. We're pretty lucky with the shop here. We've five minutes down the road. We've got this freshwater lake and Alan operates down here. It's not ti obviously, so he can be there at any time. So flat water it, there are no waves, so it's really stable. So it's really easy to get going on each side. And then we've got the bays, we've got fun pro coast with manly and all these sort of sheltered bays, which get, in like a west to a. Right around to south sort of Southeast. So you've always got that kind of flat water with those winds. So I would just say, just try and stick to the flat water with wind, if you don't have access to a boat. And maybe even just grab a wing, jump on a skateboard or something.  We're doing these little skateboard, you don't have to go on the water straight away. You can grab a wing, jump on the land, go to a big ASALT, concrete area and just get the feel for the wing. I reckon that's been a cool thing. A lot of people are actually getting skateboards lately.  So we're getting these little what have we got on the shop? These slide carvers and yeah, they're selling pretty well with the wing. Which is pretty cool. Nice. Yeah. That's a great way to learn as well. All right. And then terms of the, like I know during the pandemic, probably a lot of people got into a sport. I know here in Hawaii, like it was, there was like booming and we never had enough inventory like last couple years, but then it seems to tr be transitioning where the demand's kind of slowing down a little bit or the growth seems to be slowing on. Do you and here in Hawaii anyways, are you experiencing the same thing in New Zealand? Yeah. Yeah. It was funny, couldn't, could it get enough stock? Couldn't get it in time. It was just frustrating at the time I remember. And then it all arrived at once and , we did, we were just like full and then it the demand dropped off at the same time. So it was funny, but we actually had a seriously busy summer last summer.  I was actually really surprised. It was extremely busy. We went through everything and yeah, at the pandemic, there was a massive demand for gear, but which did drop off, I don't know, it just spiked, but then it dropped off and now it's flattened out but I'm still seeing new B newbies coming into the sport, which is cool. Yeah, so actually speaking of the pandemic, so it I know in New Zealand, you pretty much had no cases for a long time and you were able to keep COVID out of New Zealand, but seems like recently, it's you guys have COVID too now, right in New Zealand and it's like more prevalent or. Yeah, I think it's, everybody's just getting it really . Have you gotten COVID yet? Oh yeah. I've had it. And then we've got, we've got like a bit of a social win group developing, good friends and, one of them each weeks dropping down with it. But, it's that majority is just like a little cold and then that bitter in a week, and most people are vaccinated by now. So it's not as bad as was early on. Yeah. And no more shutdowns. Is that, do you still have shutdowns or like what are no nothing like that. Kind of wish we, I shouldn't say it wish we did click it. Click and collect. Collect was working out pretty well getting on the water  but yeah, no we haven't had the shutdowns. I think the government just realizes everybody's gonna get this and and most will get better and yeah, move on and yeah, just get back in the water. I, after I got it, I just got in the water as soon as I could and made sure I flushed out the salt water and yeah. Yeah. It's it's, it's not as bad as we think it is. I think we need to just yeah, carry on. Yeah. It depends on the person too. Like I've had ki I had a, kind of a cough for a long time that didn't go away, which is really frustrating, but but yeah, the, oh, you hit it. You, yeah, I had it like in December and then it took me like several months to get over the coughing, like it wasn't that bad the COVID itself, but it had this. Tickling in my throat and I kept having, like having a coughing thing going on. I'm too. I'm too weak. If I cough, just sorry about that, but  no, it's fine. No, it's getting better. I honestly feel much better after wing foiling, honestly. All I can remember every, everybody in the world, if you get COVID take up wing foiling, cuz it'll get you better quicker. Yeah. This salt water flushing helps.  Yeah. But tell us a little bit about the foiling scene in Auckland and New Zealand. Like what, are, is there certain spots where everyone goes is it pretty busy and like how big is it compared to other water sports and stuff like that? I'm curious. Yeah. It's funny. Cuz it's I'm noticing like it's just foiling, winging was the thing now it's I'm noticing all these little categories are emerging and the wing has allowed people to get into toe or, or pump or wake or, we're even starting some races here at Auckland, which getting pretty popular. Down winding, there's a bunch of guys that I downwind with every now and then it's, I'm actually loving it. It's it's, I don't know, kind an endless wave for an hour and a half. So we do it from, it depends where we do it. So we have a couple of spots they're about 20 K maybe. And now we're just thinking, do we need the wing? Maybe we'll just drop the wing and get, maybe get a pedal and just see if we can do it without the wing. I know my friend, Jason my friend who I met down winding one day I was just going past him the other day and just, I just threw in my wing and he grabbed it. I just said, just grab my wing. And then I just keep down winding, like just without it. And, just to be without a wing and just have your vision open right up is pretty awesome. No, I think like the wing has definitely helped, like all these separate foil categories emerge and grow and people probably wouldn't have the confidence to do that if the wing hadn't come along. So it's pretty awesome like that, I think. Yeah. And it seems like the whole down wind equipment improved a lot too. Like you, you can get BOS out that are more narrow, faster, a little bit longer for down wind foiling, on a scent with a paddle. Cuz when I started, I was just using my regular. Stand up surfing board, which was pretty short and wide, but it's really not ideal for catching bumps. And it was definitely hard work to even just get a bump and get up on the foil, and then by the time I got up on foil, I was so exhausted.  that I couldn't stay on very long usually, but yeah, I think I definitely want to get into that again, as. Yeah. So you're you, I I know, Hawaii obviously is you're the leaders of the down winding side of things. You've got some pretty, pretty leading shapers brands there, which we all look at, but is that kind of emerging over there? Just the downwind side of things. Oh yeah. There's a pretty big crew here that does the downwind foiling. There's yeah. A bunch of guys, they call themselves Voyager. They go on pro boards. Actually they catch a breaking wave and then pump out and then do downloaders on prone boards, but if they fall in, they're not able to get back up again front, in the bumps, they need to paddle into the surf zone and then catch another one. But there's also quite a few guys doing it with Santa paddle boards. And I want to get back. That's how we got into winging. Derek and my friend, Jeff, we were just down winding on Santa foil boards. And then when the wings came on and we're like, oh, let's try that. And then it was just so much easier, yeah. It's nice having the backup of a wing. And like you were, we were considering like doing the whole deflate thing. We've got these little mini travel pumps that we can. Take out and do that. But I think I think the goal now is just I have designed a downwind board we, yeah, we'll just start seeing if we can do it on those. It's gonna, I think it's gonna be a bit of a learning curve, but a fun one. It's like the challenge of the wing, and I don't think we're gonna, it's not like we're gonna ditch winging. It's just like another. That we're gonna be doing, in the right condition. To me, it's just yeah. Without the wing, these things just probably wouldn't have emerged so fast. I don't know if we would've been thinking like this, but yeah. Yeah. If anyone wants to get into downward filing James Casey has a great podcast and goes into a lot of detail on, how to do it and like what, how to get into it and stuff like that, which is I think really good. He's very passionate about it. He's a bit of a freak he's yeah, definitely watching him and learning quite a bit. A lot of us here watching his spot, his YouTube videos and stuff like that. I was just wondering, are you on a, are you on a mobile computer? Can you give us a little tour of your shop? Can you walk around a little bit or is it like a desktop or something? Oh, it's good. Yeah. I've actually, yeah. Give us a little tour of what I blocked. It's a small shop. I blocked the front door with the w so no, see, yeah. Welcome. What are the foils you have it looked, I just saw some axis. What are those stab foils? We've got a few it's scattered everywhere at the moment. So yeah, we've got some access. We've got some sub, we've got some, we've got some lift and then, yeah, just a big bunch of boards here and that's it. Yeah. Wow. So you basically, every pretty much everything in your store is foiling or wing, foiling related cuz I, I know you originally you started as a standup paddle brand. And, but seems like you pretty much transitioned to all foil stuff. Yeah, I've got some stops just sitting down the back kind of collecting dust, but yeah, hopefully someone comes along and people come in and do that. But I, I still thinks surf and it's pretty cool sport, so hopefully it doesn't fade away to nothing, but yeah it's definitely a win specific shop. I, we are the only win specific shop, the other shops. They do a bit of everything.  Even wet suits, we gotta approach the other day. Not I'm like, oh, I don't know if I wanna sell wet suits. It's just gonna, it's just gonna complicate things.  But we down the street called Barry's point road, it's like kind of the street for toys. There are three other sort of surf. There's backdoor, there's another one up the road. There's one next to us and they all sell that sort of stuff. So  yeah, the shop's gonna, we're gonna get surfboards, just fun boards in the summer. I think there's a bit of a market it's emerged, so that's gonna be cool. Just bright, fun boards and stuff like that.  But yeah we're pretty much full wing specific and yeah really specialized in it. Just feel and everybody here, wings who works here, so it's pretty cool. We've got some really talented wing forwarders that are working here too. Yeah. Right on. So I wanted to talk a little bit about your the soar boards. Like we recently got those in stock and just share the yeah. We it took a long time for the, for us to get them. I think it took six months or something to shipping to from Vietnam to Hawaii. It took quite a while. But but we do have them in stock now and I've been testing it. I have the one right behind me here. And and yeah I just wanna talk a little bit about the boards and get your have you talk a little bit about them? Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about the whole design thing and yeah, actually I have a little video too, so I did wanna share that. Let me Go to that, but yeah. Tell us a little bit about the design and everything and I'll just play this video in the background a little bit. Yeah. Cool. So this is this is basically the saw is I guess evolution from the glide, which is our, which was our first kind of wing, specific board that we did that I designed. So this is quite a small size. This is on the 34th, just so you can see it. The popular sizes are the 50, 50 liter up 50 to 90 liter boards. I've actually got 10 sizes. Now I just chucked in all these extra sizes to fill the gaps. I don't think there's any downside of having too many sizes now  between sort of 30, hundred liters. So yeah, the whole design behind the sport and the change was basically just. Flattening the tail and just losing all kind of that be that we had on the glide. And just keeping the board really flat through here. And I always just want to keep that kind of surf look of our boards with the nose. I don't know, to me, it just feels you're still on a surfboard. You've still got that kind of like responsive kind of surfboard of feel. I don't know. I know a lot of boards are going square, but trying to keep the outline surfboard, wing board as much as I can. And then just a little concave in the deck. But the main unique kind of factor with these sports and we haven't really gone over it. That much is a construction. Yeah. So tell us a bit about the construction. Yeah. So they're made in, they made in Vietnam. They made in one of, probably one of the leading factories in the world. So each board actually has their own specific mold. So each size, each model has a mold. It's Amania mold. So the cause basically formed in that mold. And it's, it forms a perfect core, like CNC, you get a little bit of aeration, a little bit of non-perfect kind of feel finish or whatever. So you get a really perfect core. And then after you've got that core, the whole board's basically wrapped in PVC. A, about a milk of HD and then the whole carbon out there, and it gives you this kind like I, if you have you squeezed them, kindy, concrete feel even though super light. So it really, like more, I think wing foiling, like really pushing boards and putting a lot of stresses on boards. We've seen like tracks coming out. We've seen, things happen to other boards, but it's funny cuz this construction process has meant that. We haven't really, we haven't had any issues. We haven't had any warranties, we haven't had anything. So it's been cool that. We can like confidently just sell a board, which is gonna last, and I think that's, when I was younger, I used to buy surfboards. I used to get just over the fact that they're just soften up or break down after a while. But even though these are double the price for manufacturing they, that they'll last forever. That just yeah. I was gonna share this video and maybe I can talk a little bit about my impressions of the board too. Yeah. I, the one I tested that's beyond me, that's the 83 liter model, which it's actually a little bit bigger than the one I used and I used like a Mount on my strut of my wing. Yeah. But yeah, so the board is a little bit bigger and wider than the one I was used to, but it felt really nice. And on, on a lighter wind day, Definitely makes it a lot easier to get going when you have that more stable board, and then also I really like the concave shape that it, when you're kneeling on the board, it just kinda feels real solid. Like you can of almost that, that I guess that concave deck, it feels like you can almost push your knees against it on the side. So it makes it feel nice and stable. So that's something I noticed that for getting up on foil, it was, it felt really good for that. I actually, I wanted to ask you why you like I know on your original boards, you had like longer fin boxes, but then on this one, on the store boards, you just have the regular size us boxes, right? Yeah. So the long, yeah, the, there was nothing against the long boxes, but they just add. Quite a bit of weight  that we didn't want, when you have a long box, the whole thing's HD it's, top to bottom deck to the base. So it just added unnecessary weight. I felt we could just position the box in the right spot after testing a lot of different sizes and just get it in the right spot. And we tested a lot of different four brands and they all worked in that spot. So I don't know, yeah. Reducing the weight was just Yeah. The main factor on that one. I've gone. I I feel like the regular size boxes are fine. Yeah, but yeah, this was wondering if you, yeah. Why what you're thinking was on the, it was just to wait for honestly, when I think people are getting more CRI like kind of not picky, but they can be right. It's a lot of money to invest in a board. And yeah, a light, a Lightboard is something that people look for. It's nice to have a Lightboard under your feet and, if you can make it light and strong, I think it's just a winning combo. So yeah I'm, I'm glad you said that about the concave, because it, although it gives you quite a kind of thick looking rail, it, when you're in it, you feel a little, I think, a little more locked in just being a little closer to the foil. So that's cool that you notice that. Yeah, that definitely. And then also having that flat tail, for Bo and the Y tail, it feels very stable because it is so wide in the tail as well. And then just having a flat bottom definitely helps especially I'm using a more high aspect foil now and which you can't really pop it up at a steep angle. You just have to slowly ramp it up. And for that kind, for those kind of foils, especially I think having any kind of kick in the tail doesn't really help much, cuz you wanna just go start it more flat and slowly come up instead of popping up the foil, so I've noticed that for kind of more high aspect flows that shape definitely seems to work well, you. Yeah, it's almost like the sport is like a simple version. The, our first board, I think it was good, but it was a bit it had a lot of chime it, I think we are just maximizing the surface area. And then once, once you lift off, so you don't want, you don't want much board under your feet. So I guess the goal with designing the sport was the most stable board for the size. And I think we achieved that pretty well. So I'm stuck on these boards. I think people are gonna love them really good feedback so far. Yeah, it's cool. Right on. Yeah. And then I just wanted to ask again too, about the, your volume recommendation. You said rider weight plus 20, 20 kilograms or so And then just to be clear, like that's the weight in kilograms. So if you're like, like it's always, you have to convert it first from pounds to kilograms if you're in the us. So one or two, 2.2 pounds is one kilogram. Yeah. So you have to take your wa body weight and pounds divided by 2.2. And that gives you your weight and kilograms, and then add 20 kilograms to that. That's a pretty good weight for beginner inter intermediates. And then as you get better, you can have more, lower and lower volume, but you don't want to go low volume too early, cuz yeah. It's a lot harder to, to write a smaller board, yeah. I, even for myself, I think I'm going to increase my volume, which is which sounds weird, but I've been writing 52 liters. Is it 52? Yeah. 52 liters. Yeah, the 52. I keep forgetting the volumes, even though I designed them all. So yeah, I've been riding that one a lot. But honestly I get a little caught out on the light breeze and don't really wanna drive around with three boards in the van. I think I'm gonna chop between two. So I'm gonna use like a, the new 68 and the 82 for the light days. So yeah I wanted to go as small as possible, but did that and I, I could ride the 39 liter or whatever, but I don't know. I just, now I just wanna be comfortable. And I, if I want to if I get off the, for I'm still on a really short board, like I think, four eight is a really short board, in my opinion.  You can still really carve it around and just have that volume if the wind drops or something in your session to get going. Yeah. I think that's the thing, like in lighter on lighter wind days, if you're on a really small board, you tend to then wanna basically you have to use a bigger wing or something that you have to make up for it, because you want to be able to get going. So yeah. Then you have to use a bigger wing to be able to get going on a smaller board. And that's a trade off too, cuz it's nice to have a smaller wing when you're, especially when you're on a wave or something like that. It's always a trade off, and yeah, smaller, isn't always better necessarily. I would say no. I talk, I speak to people with the windsurfing and the same thing I think happened, everyone went as of small as they could and then came back a little bit and then every, and you find your kind of comfortable volume so that, that's a thing that I've just realized in myself. So I'll just, I'll hand it on to people coming in the store or whatever. Yeah. And then in saying that. We're I've we, we are introducing a so pro, which is gonna be 53 63, 73, 83 liters. And it's just gonna be that kind of that's 23. Yeah. What is it, 23 kinda with I think there's a little bit of a need for that. Narrowish kind of board, just to give you a bit of responsiveness and as people are progressing, they're wanting a smaller board under their feet, so . Yeah. So this is basically based on the same shape, just a little bit narrower, the pro version. Okay. And if flat a deck and no concave, so I've planted the deck off, squeezed a bit more volume in and narrowed the board. And it, I think it's gonna be a cool one with the race scene. And it's just got a slightly wider. Stands. Okay. So yeah, I just wanted to mention again, we do have those, so boards in stock now here at blue planet and our website price includes free shipping in the us. So it's a pretty, pretty nice price. They're not cheap, but like you said the weight and size, the weight and strength ratio is excellent. And these are the sizes we have 34 years, 52 liters, eighty three hundred, five hundred thirty, a hundred forty four. So that's how you name the models too, by the volume, right? I think, yeah, we name them by the volume and it confuses the sh the crap out of the factory. Yeah. It's yeah I don't know. I think volumes a good indicator for a board, maybe in a shop for, for your staff and stuff, selling them for the customer. It I don't know. What do you think it's it I think it's the most important number for, like for wing board probably is the volume I would I would say, yeah, I think it's that makes sense, but of course also the width and the length and all that kind of stuff is important as well. But definitely the volume is the first thing I, I would look Yeah. So yeah, I, they are pricey, but they are around probably double what a board maybe cost in China to make. So one, once people, if they pick them up, feel them, understand the construction process and know that the board's gonna last a lot longer. And then the resale values, obviously a lot easier or higher you can justify that price. Yeah. Yeah. If only people compared to other yeah. Other brands are in that same price range too, the Armstrong. And if they're, if it's a good high quality construction, it costs some money. I always think in life, there's gotta be a reason why you pay more for something. I was listening to a pretty funny podcast last night about like threads and textiles and like sheets and the whole thread count thing is like a complete ish. Like it's not correct just saying you've got high thread count. It's the actual quality of the cotton and the weave.  I think it's called Brooklyn sheets or something. It's a us based company, but it's a really interesting podcast actually. I listened to a lot of business podcasts, but that was just one of them. And I think this is, yeah I, myself I would feel, I would feel wrong selling something at a high price for no reason. So this is the reason they do cost double to make. They do have their own mold that you've gotta invest in. And yeah they are significantly lighter and stronger, I think, than a lot of boards on the market. So I'm pretty stoked went with that. Yeah. You also just sent me this picture of a new model you have coming out. You wanna mention that real quick? Oh, cool. Yeah, that, that's the link. That's the downwind board I mentioned earlier. So the link, the linking, the waves yeah. It's narrower, a lot of volume impact in To one board and obviously it's got the 16 tracks. I think with the longer board, a little bit of adjust, a little bit more adjustability is quite a good thing. I think you'll be going a little bit further forward, maybe for the downwind and stuff like that. And then you can see it's hard to see, but you've got these sort of channels up the side where the tracks are, it's obviously flat, but the channels run all the way up the board. So they almost set like fins all the way down the board. So they keep you tracking. So one, one of the things when you're paddling, the board goes side to side. So the design behind these boards that you'll track.  and then that'll assist you with, popping up on the foil, cuz you're gonna be straight. You're not gonna be using your body to keep the board straight so much. So did you design this as a downwind standup foil board or for wing foiling? Downwinders downwind. Standup pedal board. Yeah, but the, I think the smaller side, 90, 91 liters. So it could be a bit of a crossover. But yeah, ultimately designed it for Darwin stand up pedal it's a hundred percent with a pedal. Okay. I also wanted to ask you real quick on the the leash plugs. You have one that's off centered Over here. So I was just curious yeah, I'm using the off centered one to, to test it out and I guess it helps with the board not coming straight back at you. Is that what the thinking is behind that? Yeah it actually happened to me. I was just, I was about a year ago. I was wing foiling at one of our local places AWA and I came down a wave and then I just crashed really fast. Everything happened really fast. Like it does when you crash and the board just Slingshot it into my head and I got like seven stitches here, which was , which is pretty funny. And then it was it's actually Josh, a guy that Josh Armit, who works in the shop. He is one of my team riders and he actually, I'm not gonna claim this. He suggested just why don't you just offset a li So it, so the fall just grabs and doesn't come straight back at your head. So I did. So there is a reason why that thing is offset. And when you're going super fast, if you do have a crash like Josh, Armit doing 32 knots sometimes, and you have a crash, it is quite nice to not have that board slinging at your yeah. It's attached, especially if you have a shorter leash, I guess Yeah, exactly. I don't think Josh actually uses a leash when he does his speed runs, which is a good idea. Oh, okay.  all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a couple questions that Dan Regan sent to me. So first of all, he said pro in terms of product marketing, as an example we both sell each other's products. So you have some boot planet products in your shop. I sell your products in my shop. Yeah. And you have your alien. Yeah. You have our alien wings and some of the boards in your shop and so on. And you both have the same issue. The boards are not known in Hawaii and the alien wings are not well known in New Zealand. It's an interesting challenge. Just, can you talk a little about that and like how. Yeah. The challenge of selling something that people are not as familiar with. How do you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point. Familiarity generally helps us sell pretty, for a shot, that it's if it's like anything, if you focus on it and you spend a bit of time out there on it and you talk to people at the beach, I know Dan he's always at the beach, he's always out there winging he's in coy, which is pretty cool, cuz it's a different part of Auckland. So I mean he's out there all the time. We've got them in the shop. I'm about to start riding them and I, I'm looking at them and I'm going they look really cool for down windows cuz they've got their Dhara I know they're gonna fly flat. I can just tell by looking at them. So yeah we're, we've actually minimized our wings to actually we only sell at the moment. Your wing and our wing in the shop. And I know that kind of sounds a little biased, but there's just been a lot of wings been bought into New Zealand. So we've just simplified it a lot.  So yeah, I think I'm loving the big window and your wing. I was gonna ask you why did you actually call it the alien? What did you see a UFR when you were away?  Like I, when I just saw some video of me using it it looks I thought it looked a little bit like the head of an alien with the funky oval eyes, but the, those windows, cuz originally I had one prototypes with the window and without a window. Yeah. And and I found actually the windows. If anything, I actually liked the way it worked better with the windows for some reason, I think maybe because the location and having maybe a little bit more stretch right there where the windows are actually helps with the profile of the wing. Maybe I don't know why, but it felt really good. The one with the, sorry, go ahead. People commented. They've seen it in the shot and they've just gone. Oh my gosh. I can see everything. I think it's really cool. And the wind, the wing feels really clean. I reckon it's gonna be, yeah, it's gonna do really well. Yeah. It has a nice profile. The yeah, it has like a really stiff lot of tension in the wing itself, like pretension. Yeah. I noticed it's a lot thicker than ours through here through the hole. So pretty a pretty beefed up wig. Yeah. Rigid frame. So on. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. That's the idea behind it. But yeah. Let's talk a little bit about about your new wing design. So what's what's new on your wings? The main thing with our wing was getting it a little lighter. So we just we rearranged the whole panel layout to just simplify it. We played around with the, I don't know if I spoke about that last time. It was probably after, but we actually, we tested a hundred percent different panels. And then we landed on just using these panels, Chuck it in here, because these are the panels, which take the load. You actually, yeah, you just avoid a lot of stretch through here with the, it seems like that's always where the wing tends to wrinkle. I get wrinkles when it's powered up. So yeah, I could see that. Yeah. The wing itself the wing tips, we pulled them in a little bit. Some people were complaining with the surge. It was a little bit spany  so we pulled the tips in changed the panel layout, different windows, and the slide changed the handle positions as well, a little bit just to balance it out. But yeah, it's honestly pretty similar. It's pretty similar field but it is a lot different at the same time. So  I think ultimately the canopy might last a bit longer having this play. And then in terms of the play you said you tried the whole wing and like rein has that one wing. That's all XLY. And but what was your experience with that and why didn't you go full XLY on the wings? Like what was the downside of it? I just didn't like the weight of it. And I just, it, it's super powerful. There's no doubt about that. But I think to me personally, it was just to a point where it was almost too powerful and it was just a bit too kind of jerky or whatever. And I think with wings, just weight is a big one. We're seeing it with new materials and stuff emerging on the market, bringing the weight down and, these materials are super expensive. I think a lot of brands are maybe fighting for them at the moment, but yeah I just wanted to keep the weight down while having a powerful win. If I think if you, for the smaller sizes, you're gonna be on a lot of winds, the weight's taken away with the wind, but then the biggest sizes, you're always gonna feel that weight. I think, especially with anyone learning, if you can. If it's, if you don't feel as much wing, it's gonna be a it's to handle the wing, it's gonna be a lot easier. See it's a tough one. It's a tough one when you're designing these things. Yeah. Yeah. It's always, it's always a compromise between different things, right? Yeah. But Dan's asking here, where do you see wing tech going? And are we going to see wings becoming more genre specific now that racing and freestyles freestyles seem to be diverging more? Are we going to see wings designed specifically for high speed versus more freestyle free riding? I think so. Yeah. I always wanted to do a carbon laminate wing the Mo cells, they have like a. Full carbon laminate, probably shouldn't say on here, given away my idea anyway I, but look it's not gonna be a big part of the market. You, I might make 10. We were gonna, we were talking about it last year, doing a full carbon laminate wing. The wings' probably gonna retail for $5,000. It's not a, it's certainly not a recreational wing. It's a performance wing and it's yeah, it, yeah. You'll use it racing, but then I don't know. I think wings, we're still at the stage where it's Rick and they do stretch. They do, they, they have a lifespan. Yeah. I think we'll see some, like the thing is, I don't think we haven't seen huge changes in the last two years. They're still inflatable. Most brands are still using the same canopy material. Some brands are using different Decron substitutes. And I mean that's alter and obviously rigid handles but we haven't, I don't think we've seen massive developments yet, to be honest. I think I might have mentioned last time, we'd see a rigid w with a, carbon frame, but we haven't really seen that yet. And I think Kylie needed a video, yeah. With the rigid wing. Yeah. Mean, it seems like obviously it would have less drag if you have a smaller leading edge diameter. But I dunno if it's yeah. Yeah. I just, I feel like there's still a, I think inflatables, it's the way this, the way they are, the way they can pack down the way you can travel with them. The way there aren't too many moving parts. It's like they're actually a pretty genius design  so I don't know. I isn't that maybe that's just saying, they are a genius design they're ahead of themselves. That's why they haven't progressed that much. I think they're getting cleaner. They're getting lighter. They're more balanced. All these things are like awesome.  Cause that's where they need to go. For pure enjoyment, feeling something balanced is amazing. But, yeah I don't know if we're gonna see like a lot of rigid wings out there sold to, especially newbies coming into sports. Probably not a good thing. Having anything hard on your wing actually, when you, for sure. Yeah, definitely not for entry level, but I could see it becoming more specialized where people just like trying to milk every little bit of speed out of their equipment. I was talking to Alan ADE about they have like race the summer racing now, Maui and and he is talking about the foils they use and the boards and wings everything's optimized for speed, but its a different. Like you said, I, that was that was pretty cool to see that we actually, yeah, we've got some races of our own developing here in Auckland up at manly yacht club. And it's pretty cool guys, like Russell COO through, out there on the boat, like he's a bit of a legend sailor, so he's out there of watching us they're gold medalist, wind. Surfacers doing these races. There are surfers coming in, obviously I'm a surf, so there are all these different kind of backgrounds coming into these into racing and yeah, they're certainly pushing things, but yeah, I think the whole the most developing part of the sport's probably been the foil in my opinion so far. Yeah. Quickly helping out of the school. The other thing I wanted to ask you about is this the shim, like we, we sell these shims too, and they're super convenient because you can slide it in without removing the foil completely or you have, you can put the foil on and then just slide the shim in and as like a one degree tilt. So can you talk a little bit about what your thoughts behind that and oh, you got one right there, so I'm gonna stop this screen sharing. You can show it and talk a little bit about it and how it works and what how you use it. Yeah. Okay. The shim it's important to note that it's nothing to do with the foil. It's just the pitch of the. I don't want to confuse any everybody, so it's nothing to do with the foil, the foils shimmed out with towel shims. So we're not changing anything to do with the foil. All we're doing is changing the angle of attack of the board. So some people actually a writer, Adam Bennetts he flips it round and puts it at the back of his board. He likes that feel that it gives him to his foil. Most writers just slide it in at the front of the board and it noses up the board a little bit. So it's just basically gonna give you a little bit of added front foot pressure. Or it's gonna just, the boards now are gonna be like that a little bit. So when you touch down, you're just gonna pop up instead of maybe touching down and nose diving or whatever, it's. It's just a feel thing. Not, our boards don't have to have it. I ride our boards without it. I ride it with it. I prefer it with now. All the time. I'm just used to it. It's just that it just gives you like a nice kind of front foot pressure. I think it's gonna be pretty, pretty good for racing. It speeds too. Just getting the board angled just up a little bit. So you can just push down a bit harder when you wind up at certain speeds. So go, yeah. This is molded, so it's not 3d printed. There's a few 3d printed ones on the market. We tried that they break. So this can get hammered. There's actually quite a bit of pressure. That's loaded on these, but the bolts and the foil. And you can use it. You can slide it up and down, so you don't have to use the whole one degree. You can go to 0.5 or yeah, no, totally. I think, and it's amazing how much that one degree of difference. You can definitely feel it. And I think where it really makes a difference if you. Or if you see a video of yourself and you're flying at high speeds and the noses angle downwards a little bit at, you gotta push the nose downward a little bit to keep the foil from over foiling basically. Then that means if you do get close and your nose kind of touches down a little bit, that you get like a really rapid deceleration and especially for like toe foiling or something like that high speeds, you never want the nose to be pointing downwards when you're going fast. So I think that's where that Chi and sh shimming it. So the nose is up a little bit is really helpful for that, cuz yeah, like you said, when you touch down at high speed it's much easier to recover from it when your nose is pointed up a little bit versus downwards. And then, but I've also had people say that when they put it on the backside to. Give the foil a bit more angle. Because it does increase the angle of the front wing by one degree as well when you're not foiling, so it does help at the takeoff speed is, it's a little bit easier to take off. You got like more built in angle of attack to take off. And when you do shim it when you put it in the front, you do have to make up for that by putting maybe a little bit more weight on the tail to lift off. I think, yeah. And it does make a little bit of, it has a little bit of effect on the foil too. These are just little toe boards, but it's because the board's so short it's, I've been using it a lot with Tofor and I've been getting more and more into Tofor then lately with the jet ski. Yeah. But there's not a lot of boards having the Shem just. You're going a bit faster too. So it's it gives you a little bit more kind of confidence when get into a critical turn. You've got the nose up and yeah. Just, I don't know, feels good, but yeah, I'm loving, really loving my TOEFL lately. Just the speed of it and just, yeah, we've been heading down to Ragland quite a bit and other places and towing places where nobody is and it's just been pretty incredible. So that's been cool. Awesome. Yeah. So what like for you to get really big waves, like what small directions do you do you need. So for Ragland, as it's on the west coast of New Zealand, we need just really big sort of south Southwest, west swells. Anything over sort of four meters produces about a double or triple overhead wave. Not like your swell not that big ocean swell that you guys get, but we get some pretty solid swells. So a friend of mine, and those are usually in your winter time, when it's winter, that's when the Southwest release are probably big. Or yeah. It's yeah, it is more winter, but it's been all over the place lately. I don't know what's going on. We actually had some pretty good swells over the summer down there. But yeah, U usually we have winter, we haven't had a cyclone on the east side of the new Zealand's kind of Usually pretty small compared to the west. No, Ragland's good. It's got a boat ramp it's safe and yeah, hitting out there quite a bit with a mate Daniel. No, it's been good. We're both learning a lot of stuff. And yeah, the crucial thing with towing is having a good tow partner. So someone you can trust and have fun with and talk about gear and, mix it up and, yeah, it's good. Yeah, definitely. And you want someone that's like my friend, Jeff Chan, you just like under pressure, he's like super calm and never gets freaked out or, it's always oh, it's okay. There's a huge wave coming at the ski stall or whatever. He's oh, don't worry. We'll get it going again.  and then, and that's how you figure it out, but. Yeah, if you freak out, that does never helps, right?  oh, absolutely. You, yeah. You can never be too safe or too calm in the ocean and yeah, no, it's yeah. Cool. Calm and collected is key . Yeah. So in terms of wing filing, are you working on any new moves or like what what are you, what any goals for your, for yourself or like progressing. I've honestly, I've been working, I've been working so hard lately on new products and new things. And just getting even like accessories, like a vrap and these things take so much time. So I've been relying on our team riders around here to do the moves and the speed runs and the back flips and the wave riding for me. Yeah, it's yeah, I think since since the pandemic or whatever, it's been just really crucial to be really. Closer than ever to your factory or to your, your, designer, factory, whatever. We have a new wing designer now. So we're working on the new wing, but that's gonna be 20 late, 20, 23 new models. I think we're just gonna, we're gonna I think, slow things down, do things that kind of make more sense, release them in a kind of a timely manner. I think I, I don't know for me to me, a lot of companies are releasing things, a little, like little too fast. And I wanna slow things down and make it, make it really make sense when you're release something. Yeah, that's been nice thing. No, I agree with that. Just as an example, like Jimmy Lewis his boards don't really change. Like he doesn't really have a season, it's he just has his board models and they're available. And it helps retailers too, because they don't just, you don't have to discount it after a year, because it's still the same model for next year. Yeah, if you, like in unlike other brands, like star wars, for example, they always have a new season. Everything changes, all new colors and sizes and shapes and whatever. And then all the old stuff is considered obsolete or whatever, so then you have to discount it. And and it's really not obsolete and, they, and they always say it's way better, but how mu how much can you improve it every year? 30 years, so yeah. Exactly. So something to me has, if it's way better than why is it way better? What have you done? What, how's it different? Yeah, a hundred percent and yeah, it's every retailer's nightmare to have a sale all the time. And yeah. I don't know. I think because the sports it's, we're still in the early days, I think. Like it's rushed your head really quickly with development, but I think we're still in the early days, I think we're gonna still see a lot of new people come into the sport. And we are getting creative here in the shop this summer, figuring out how we're gonna, target more kind of mainstream maybe lines of media to get new people into the sport. Our wings are gonna be available on a air New Zealand air airports website. So that's that's interesting because a lot of people that have never heard of wing foiling are gonna see these wings and go, what is this? I think that's cool. We're gonna do a bit of a video and go around like a mall and go up to people and go, have you guys heard a wing foiling and make a bit of an. So I'll post that one up in a few months, but I think, generally when you go around like maybe a place like New Zealand or whatever, most people haven't heard of it. So it's still it's still so niche. It's still pretty small in my opinion. And it's still got a long way to go. Yeah. That's a couple of questions that Dan asked as well. Like how do you get more people into winging? I agree that was still early days for sure. know? Sure. Dan, and then also, and then the second question was how did you, how were you able to get the wings out globally for the small TV based New Zealand brand? How were you able to get, do the expand globally and how do you get, how do you do that part. Ah, don't ask me about the global question. No,  no, that was, I don't know, still no. Okay. To Dan needs to come in the shop I already asked him to do jet ski lessons with me. We need to do that together. I want Dan in here a couple of days a week. So there you go, Dan. I know you've got your day job, but you would be critical to have in the shop. You're great salesman. You're great with people. And we, we talk a lot together, so we couldn't probably wouldn't get much done. Yeah. In terms of the w globally I think it was like anything, like when you listen to all these like podcasts and stuff, it's all about timing. And we just had a good wing at the right time and managed to get it around. The right people got up to south border, got a good review out. Got it. Around at least we had it around five or six key international sellers and that grew to about 30. So now we're selling into about 30 different countries. I don't know it's kind of social media is the platform. Maybe you can grow things fast than what you could have in the past. You can, you can come out with great videos and photos and content. And I think it, if you do it right, you can get that kind of exposure. And someone in, Singapore rang me last week. They saw me on us on Instagram and they, now we've got someone in Singapore and it's it's cool. It's just growing like that at the moment. So yeah, we're getting about two more, two international sales a month at the moment. So nice. Yeah. Before it gets too busy, I'll probably cap it.  Yeah. So I always wanted to ask you that too. What is your vision for PPC? Like how do you see it? Like in five years? Like what's your company gonna be like? And what's your vision for that? Yeah, it's seriously a good question. I've sat down with a bunch of, few people who've done a three, five year plan. And to me, cuz I'm still the sole owner of this company. Don't ask me why or how, but it, I've got to a point where it's definitely almost out outgrown me especially having the shop and the brand. And it's, it made me realize maybe I focus on one or the other, keep both have one managed, fo my, my love is product development. So to me I'll certainly focus on the brand and PBC for me is just about coming up with products, which makes sense. And like our term is optimize your forwarding experience. So every product that we design it, it needs to optimize your forwarding experience. If it doesn't, then there's no point doing it to me. I re so I really wanna, yeah, just keep slowly adding products where I see fit to just, better the experience of the rider who's foiling and whatever they're doing. These little UFO to boards are pretty, they're tiny little things, I didn't think we'd sell them. But we're selling them internationally, which is crazy. And people actually laughed at me when I was doing the downwind board. They said why are you doing that? Like down? I don't know what, such a small market, but I don't know. just, when I get onto something I just love designing things. Who knows how big paddle down winding's gonna get, but, it's there certainly, and I think people are gonna get into it and we're gonna see all these categories of foiling expand and foiling is definitely a sport where it's sticking around. It's like surfing, it's its own thing now. Surfing's still growing, I think globally, like five, 5% a year. Foiling, it's pretty cool that we're in that it's a it's its own thing. Yeah. Cool. But it sounds like you're not focused just on growth. It's more like you wanna provide cool products for the market and just relevant and have innovative designs and things like that. Yeah. It's cool. Cause I don't have anyone to answer to and it's I'm my own boss. Like you it's yeah, I a hundred percent just wanna do products. That makes sense. And that I want to do and you know that I see fit that fit into it and yeah, it's I, I think, it's funny cuz we've got boards, we've got wings, we've got, accessories, foot straps. Everything's coming in, but we don't have a foil.  sorry. So yeah. So we talked about wings and boards. So let's talk about foils a little bit. You mentioned that you are working on a foil design now your own foil design, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, it's correct. It's funny cuz I've had, I've actually had a foil on file for five, five and a half years now. Like I designed a foil with the free and Christchurch five years ago. It's been on file. I just. Didn't want to make it, cuz I felt like it wouldn't compete with the top brands. So it just sat there. So yeah, lately I wasn't even gonna say on the show that I was gonna, we're gonna do a floor, but yeah, we're working on a foil. We're quite a few months into it. Working with a team of engineers in Auckland and a couple of design hydrodynamics guys in the us. So yeah we're just, we're slowly working through it and it's yeah, it's a really fun project. It's almost like I want it to be slow because it's so much fun. Yeah. And it's tricky. It's tricky because the, my expectations for myself is really high with the foil. It's gotta be good. It's gotta be able to compete with the best. And luckily I've seen every, a lot of foils on the market. I've been on them. I've seen how I've seen their weaknesses. I've seen their strands. I've seen things that annoy me even, things down to different. Tools that you need two different tools for the same foil. It's just little things like that. I think, I'm confident we can iron out and yeah, we're gonna have a good foil a hundred percent. Yeah. I found the big, one of the biggest challenges of building foil was that the con you know, having a good manufacturer to do it, and I like, and just, yeah the production issues and the manufacturing and construction issues were like almost more, yeah, like it's one thing to design a really good fo, but then to build it and have it consistently and all the specs be right. That's and that's where saying like communicating with the manufacturers and stuff it takes a lot of time and effort. And for B plant, I decided that with, for us, it's hard to. On that, with the grinds, that focus just on foils Armstrong or access that they're so focused on their foils and their foil design for me, it's just I pretty much said I'm just gonna let them do that. And I, we focus more on the boards and the wings, but yeah. I was honestly gonna, sorry. I was thinking the same thing and honestly I, we weren't gonna do a foil. I was really happy with our boards, our wings and accessories. But yeah, you're right. You start with the factory, you almost start with the factory and work backwards. Our board factory's pretty good. So our foils are gonna be main in the same factory. And I'm confident now that we can yeah, that we can develop a good foil. Like we've learned a hell of a lot about connections and, in my opinion the most crucial part of a foil is the connection. All the connection points. Foil like foils are so complicated. But then we're talking about just a few connection points. Those just have to be absolutely. Robust and, no, no weaknesses, no movement. And yeah, there's been a lot of mass talk lately, a lot of, foils high aspect, men aspect, low aspect. So yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be an interesting process for the next year or so, but yeah, hopefully we have a fall for the next podcast.  excellent. That's exciting. So let's talk a little bit about and I was gonna say too just being able to test all the different foils that you use, like D from different brands and so on. That's so helpful in designing your own too, because if you can try, I think some different manufacturers, different designers and stuff like that really helps you figure out what, what works for you and what you want in your own design. So I think sometimes like team riders or whatever that are used to only riding one foil or one manufacturer, they don't really understand like the differences between let's say between a really stiff mass and the softer mass or whatever, you don't really understand it until you try it, so you can talk about it, but unless you try it and feel it's yeah, but anyways, I like. That also is a question. Another question from Dan, the challenges of global shipping and production over the last two COVID years. How is this gonna impact our market in the coming year? Let's talk a little bit about the challenges you had in New Zealand and then how do you think it's gonna affect us in the going forward? Yeah. As shipping's increased I don't know, by 5, 5, 5 times the amount, maybe four years ago. So you gotta really think about what you're putting in that container.  I think that's the main thing. So it's like, it's actually made me think, more critically about product development because of shipping costs in a roundabout way. You've got to ensure that what you put in that container or what you ship is the best thing that you can put in it. Yeah. It's so you've, for me, it's, we've just, I've just invested way more than usual in production. So production with board swings. I've just, we've just gone like four times as much as usual. So we just ensure that we've got stock on hand stock here. Yeah. When the pandemic happened, the factory in Vietnam, they shut down for four months. And that, that caused probably a delayed 12 month, 12 month delay on production. Yeah it's planning and it's just ensuring that you've got like such, the best product you can put in that container. And ensure you, we're getting a B2B system set up now on the website for our sellers, which is gonna help out a, hell of a lot. But yeah it's like a learning process, we didn't know that shipping would, I don't know. I don't know how expensive it's gonna get. Is it gonna come back?  yeah, I it seems to be leveling off and I think like some of the frosty really crazy prices don't, it's come back down to more normal, but yeah, it's, I think it's just gonna be elevated cuz of the higher fuel costs and all that. I But yeah, I was gonna mention too, like those, so boards that we ordered they were ready to ship, I think in December and then we actually didn't get them until like early July, I think. Yeah. So something like that. So it took six or seven months for us to get boards from Vietnam to Hawaii, which is crazy, but yeah, that's ridiculous. I'm very frustrating. Yeah. We've got two 40 footer, 2, 2 40 footers coming to New Zealand this summer. So we have a lot of stock in New Zealand. I think the key is, a lot of brands obviously have access to, three PLS and, setting up a, the goal would be to set up three PLS in us, Europe in our busier locations. And that's probably where we'll go. So yeah, third party logistics is probably the answer. And, but they all, they also take a margin. It's just what you have. You've gotta do to get out there though, I think. And I think, I really believe in our products, so I think that's the way to go, unless you wanna order six containers and be three P , right? Yeah. But it's a difficult one. It's a diff yeah, it's a difficult one. Yeah, I keep definitely it's a challenge. The logistics is definitely a big challenge right now. Talk a little bit about hood river. You said that you're going to hood river right this summer or our summer. Yeah. I'm looking at flights now at school holidays and flights from New Zealand are like 7,000 returns. So I'm just keeping an eye on it for the next few weeks, school holidays finish in two weeks. I'll look at it after that. So we've got our, my friend George is over there. She's a, quite a well known photographer in this up sort of wing world. And she's over there now staying with, I think she's staying with Fiona and Aiden. So that's Fiona wilds and Aiden her partner. So there's a kind of a Kiwi crew over there. So yeah, I'm just looking at that river and just going, yeah. I definitely need to get in there and meet up with some people. And we've seen some of our gear over to aid and he's trying it and yeah. And then it's OB, so hopefully I make hood river and then to the, to Hawaii. And then back. Be good to catch up with you and go for a w with you and the guys. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I'll have to make a little video about that. That was talking my I actually spoke to my friend, Jason yesterday. I said I was, there was a some flights to Hawaii for 400 bucks. I was gonna surprise you. And I just imagine if I'd just turned up to Hawaii and, knocked on Rob store at the start of the interview. Yeah, we, it would've been kinda cool. Yeah.  yeah, no, that, that would be cool. Yeah. Come visit. Are you gonna go to. Are you gonna go to hood river? Are you what plans have you got? I don't really have plans to go. Cuz I, I just went to Europe. I was in Germany for a couple weeks and then I'm also going to Florida and September. So that's I'm going to the surf expo in, in Orlando. I already had that plan and I have some friends that live there and they help me out and stuff. So it's always a fun trip for me, but I've been wanting to I lived in hood river for a summer, three four months. And I really love that place. When, back in the windsurf day, that was before I winged, before foiling was around. But I, I can see how that's such a good place, especially for down wind foiling. You got like this almost like standing waves, and and the wind blowing against the current of the river and stuff like that. It's like a perfect setup for down winding and those kind of things. So definitely wanna do that. But probably not gonna happen this year, next year. Yeah, maybe I'll yeah. Yeah. It looks like the place to kind of test gear, I think. And, looking

In this conversation Clifford Coetzer, the founder and designer at Unifoil goes over tips for wing foil beginners, his background, how he started making foils and started Unifoil, foil design evolution, construction, stiffness, tradeoffs, testing prototypes, foil characteristics, and more, I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did, thank you for your support and positive feedback. Aloha, Robert Stehlik For more information on Unifoil, please visit: https://www.uni-foil.com Transcript: Aloha  friends. It's Robert Stehlik welcome to another episode of the blue planet show in today's interview. I'm speaking with Clifford from uni foil. He's in South Africa, I'm in Hawaii. So there's like a 12 hour time difference. There's a little bit of a delay and so on, but it's a great conversation. And we get into detail on foil design tips for beginners tips, for more advanced people, all kinds of technical things about the foils. I'm trying to wrap my head around all the different aspects of how everything works together, and Clifford's really good at explaining it and making sense of it. And obviously he's tried a lot of different things. He's one of the first people to come out with the high aspect foil. And so he's definitely one of the pioneers in foil design. Really good conversation. Hope you enjoy it. Please make sure to give it a thumbs up if you like it, make sure to subscribe to the blue planet surf YouTube channel down below. I'll put some links down in the description as well. For the uni foil website, you can watch the blue planet show right here on YouTube, or you can also listen to it on your favorite podcast app to search for the blue planet show. And without further ado here is Clifford. Okay, Clifford. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Good Robert. Thanks for having me on man. What a privilege? Awesome. To finally meet you. Yeah. Fi glad to finally get you on the show. So here in Hawaii, it's 8:00 PM in the evening. And for you, it's 8:00 AM in, in Cape, in South Africa and Jeffrey bay. That's where you're at. That's right? Yeah. Just the start of the day. Yeah. So how long have you been living in Jeffreys bay or is you born and raised there or? Uh, No. I was actually born in Johannesburg. But at a young age I moved over to England and then I've been coming over to Jeffrey bay on holiday. So I've actually got a house year. I've been coming here for 20 years and then about 10 years ago, I actually moved to Jeffrey bay. Excellent. So trying to start off season with some tips for beginners last year, I kind had it, the, of this, I asked the question, what are some tips for beginners, but I wanted kind turn it around. So for the beginners watching, what are some good tips for people that want to get into wing foiling? For myself, I only started wing foiling last year and my biggest tip is to use the right equipment. That is critical. So myself being a bit of a heavier rider I'm about hundred and four kilos, about 230 pounds to use the right equipment is essential, especially if you in light wind. My advice is to be overpowered. Rather a wing that is a little bit too big a board that is too big and a fo that is too big. It just makes the whole learning process so much easier. If you use your equipment, that's too small.  then it becomes a struggle. It becomes, it's just hard work. It's a nightmare. So in the beginning, overpowered for sure. If possible I would recommend one or two sessions behind a boat just to be pulled behind a boat and just get, just to break down the whole process so that you don't have a ring in your hands and a foil trying to do both at the same time. So if you can get going with just the foil behind a boat toe session, get just the feeding of the foil coming up outta the water. Great. And then with the ring itself, going on just the normal sub-board walking on dry land, getting a feel for how the ring works and then combining the two together. I find that works really well. And of course, nothing beats having someone who's got experience, if you go off by yourself it's difficult. But if you've got an instructor or someone who's already wing foing and they watch you, and they can tell you're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong cry. This cry, this, that, that advice is gold, highly recommended. If you go like a school or something rather go someone who's already competent at wing, foing it, it just makes the whole process, the whole journey so much more pleasant. Yeah. Those are some great tips, I think. And I think most of us. Everybody's still new to the sport. So we remember what it was like to learn and are happy to help others too. Yeah, just ask for help. And and just keep in mind too, that it can be dangerous in the beginning too. If if you fall on your foil and, as a surfer, like usually you try to kind catch yourself if you're falling, but that's the wrong instinct when you're foiling. You wanna just eject as, as quickly as possible 100%. Yeah, 100%. I think in the beginning days when you're trading water, you only kick the foil once or twice and you learn very quickly don't trade water, rather hang on the board, but yeah, with foing you, you learn very quickly, don't try and save it rather as you say, object off the foil and get going again. It's so much save so much easier. Okay. I'm just put, pulling up your website here. So out of your lineup what, which foil do you like for someone your size? What foil did you start on? I started on a hyper I started on, on, we used to do quite a big one a two 50. I then switched over to the two 10, and that's what I use now at the moment. I dunno if much about the hype's been around for quite a few years. So we are actually working on a version two at the moment, which will be released very soon. The hyper ones have been out now for 20, about five years now. So they've been around for quite a while. Yeah. So that's actually a high aspect wing. Yeah. So you were one of the first to you to bring out a wing that was had a really high aspect ratio, right? Like one of the first to bring out a wing like that. Yeah. So what happened was I was working with with Ivan and Nathan from signature at the time. And they started doing down winding here in Cape town. And I said to Ivan can he put a GPS on Nathan? And just to see what sort of speeds is he doing? And I knew immediately that a high spec would be very efficient. So I started doing prototypes and I did the first high spec for, and yeah, watching those GPS graphs was well, it was amazing to, to see that he could be on the fo for so long. Cause I back then, if I was on the foil for 60 seconds, this is a long time. And you had, he was writing for 13, 14, 15 minutes at a time. So it is yeah, just pretty amazing. . Yeah. And Nathan seems like a super talented kid too. Yeah. Very much he almost, I think he, he actually beat Lenny across the channel in the mole race. The first time he came over here and just was able to pump upwind and pass him. Sorry. So sorry. Did you go to that event? Actually? I did that race too. Myself. Yeah. I saw them flying by me. I was on the stand paddle really? Oh, must amazing. Went was twice as twice actually, or just actually demo demoralize  I was watching that. I was watching that, that event from here in South Africa because they had all the GPS markers on all the riders. And then as the foils guys started right at the end and it was nervewracking. And it's three o'clock in the morning here and I'm trying to be quiet, watching this race and I'm at my parents' house the next day I'm flying out to Canada and, I'm chewing my nails what's going on. And then yeah to watch those little blips on that map, travel between all the riders and just blast through, it was certainly an amazing highlight. It was yeah. Phenomenal. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. But anyways, let's get into the whole. Relationship with signature foils and the foil design and all that. I have lots of questions about that, but let's start your just your background, like what, like, how did you grow up? How did you into water sports? How did you into foiling and foil design? And so as in Born in Johnsburg I really enjoyed I went to a technical school. I really enjoyed engineering. got my first job at engineering company doing fluid dynamics, doing hydraulics doing press design which I really enjoyed. I enjoyed the whole process of designing something, drawing something, and then going down to the workshop and actually seeing it being manufactured and being made, and then being installed on site and actually being utilized. I've got a real kick out of that. It's something that that I really enjoyed. So at a young age I moved over to England and I was staying in England, but then I'd come back to say every year and. I think it was back in 2002, somewhere around there, I was in Cape town and I bought these two flexi four kites that they stack together and then you're flying them. And I, the part of these kites was really awesome. And I sat there on the beach and I see this guy come over the road and he's got a helmet on and he's got this board on his one arm and this package on his other arm and he comes to the beach and he rolls this thing out. And it's just this massive long. don't know what it was, and he starts pumping it up and he had this kite and I was like, whoa, I'd seen it on TV, but you actually have someone doing it right hand in front of me. And he was the only one on what we call kite beach in, in Cape town. And when I saw that, I was like, I've gotta do this. So the following year I bought a kite obviously a cab black tip. I'm sure you know those guys, but I think everybody started on one of those coats and. Yeah that, that pretty much started my consulting journey, but I never got anywhere. I just mowed the lawn and did the occasional jump because I was living in, in, in England and I'd only come over for, month or two at a time. So I never really progressed. And then in about 2015, it was 2014 somewhere on there. I moved to a little Tanya in Africa called ner and I had a whole bunch of mates who were into surfing and yeah, initially I started up again, started kit surfing and started progressing a little bit better. And that's when I saw the, a video on, I think it was on YouTube or of, I, oh, we gotta try this looks cool. It looks difficult, actually looks impossible. I was with the, and it was like, gonna, if you try it. So I had a workshop doing CNC. I did a cutting service and so I just knocked up some molds and made this foil and we went beyond the boat and this meter long mot and this thing, picking it up out of the water, just this totally surreal, crazy feeling. I still remember it like as just yesterday, it was. So your first foils, you actually C seeded the mold and you laid up the foils inside a mold, like right from the start. The first, all my friend wings have always been in, in The very first mask that I made was just wrap ground a wood core. But from there everything was done, from CT molds, it's just so much easier than having to sit and sand apart afterwards. So when you were in England, you studied engineering in England or what were you doing in England? No I, I moved to England. I moved to England. I was 23 somewhere around there. And what made you decide to leave South Africa and go to England? What happened was that they made it possible to get it a two year work visa. So you could go over to England and you could travel around and, go and check the place out. And I went I was only planning to go for a year and I came back to South Africa and all my friends were still doing the same thing. Everyone's still getting to the same place. Nothing had changed. And I was like I've only got a year left on my visa and I'm looking have this opportunity again. So I'm and yeah. Someone and I staying there for 10 years. Did you in England been England? All over , but I was staying in London for a couple years and then I moved north to, to Peter. I was in Luton for a short amount of time then up to Peterborough for eight years. Okay. So you never did, you did, like you said, I guess in school, you enjoyed engineering and so on, but did you have a formal education in, in like aeronautical engineering or foil design or ring design or anything like that? Or just it's all self taught more or less? Yeah. On the aortic side. Yes. I took go to college but I didn't do aortics or hybrid dynamics that, that all came much later on from radio control, the aircraft  Yeah. Okay. Yeah, came to while that interviewed him and he has like a really good understanding of the whole engineering side of the foils as well. But he, and he, I guess he just taught himself and how to use the programs and all that kinda, stuff's pretty impressive. And he has like a background in, in glider airplanes and, or, model airplanes and so on. But anyways, yeah, that's interesting. I'm just cur curious, like how you figured all those things out, I guess just by, by trial there. A lot of it, I guess so, yeah, there is no engineering class for hydrofoils really, it's, we very niche at the moment. Yeah. I think maybe in the future they'll do something, but the principles beyond a hydrofoil and a small aircraft is very much the same. The end result is very different, but the principles of flight are very much the it's design just basics of is I guess the big thing is the, that water is much more dense than air, obviously. So it's that, and. Fluid dynamics are different probably too, but yeah, South Africa to, from there, I made this first foil and realized that it was way too small. It was only about a, I think it was about a 600 square centimeter. So you needed like 20 kilometers an hour, whatever it was, plus just for the foil to engage that you could lift up. So the wipe parts were classic. Every session you, you had come out with this, whiplash. Continued designing different ones and trying different ideas. And eventually I started getting this pile of all these prototype foils, stuck in the corner of the workshop and, I didn't wanna go and just throw them in the bin. It's just, it's, the amount of time that you put into them and the cost of the material. So I thought let sell them. So I put them on on our local second for website gum and. From doing that, I had one guy buy one and then his friend phoned him and it's listen, you made a foil for my friend. Can you make me one? And slowly but surely I, I just started making all these foils and just one after the next and just, I just snowballed. But that was all kite foils. And then my wife she's from Canada. She wanted to move to Canada. So we started the process of of getting my visa to move to Canada. And we left doing NASN at the time. So we moved to Jeffrey's bay. When I was here, I was like I've gotta do something while I'm waiting for my visa. I wasn't expecting it to be a, you a couple of months kind of thing. And in the end it took just over a year. So while I was here, Jeffrey's a good mate to mine. He he saw one of my fores in the back of my truck. And he is what is that? I was like to kit for him. So he is like, cause he's a surfer. So I think it was probably a week later, he phone me up and he goes, listen, can you make one of these things for surfing? I was like, yeah, I can't see why not. Let's try it. Back to the CNC at that time I sold my business. I didn't have access to a CNC, I to go to another mate mines place to U CNC. So I made up this this four of the surf world and it's actually Gumby. He were actually on the way to the beach and this thing was busy curing. That's how excited we were to, to get in the water. So anyway, he jumped in the water and he started pedaling out. And a few minutes later, a couple of his mates picked up and just they don't know that there's a fo at the bottom of his board, he's just laying in the water and he, and the wave comes and he paddles. So this wave and he stands up in this fo picks up out of the water. The guys are riding work blocks. The guys running were like screaming their heads. So I could hear them from the beach, this cause it just unheard of it just unseen. He was, he is literally the first guy, probably in South Africa. I dunno. But one of them definitely the first guy in, the Cape that had been on a surf for, so that, that pretty much started the journey of surf oils. And from there I had to Because I didn't have access to a CNC machine anymore. I had to machine up steel molds. So I went into an engineering shop and I had, that is when I came out with the vortex 1 75, which later on came to be a very popular foil. Okay. It is about around that time that I spoke to Ivan from signature and we started chanting and was like can we collaborate on this foil? And, can he use the foil design? And I was like, yeah, for sure. And at that time, foiling was still. Pretty much for surfing was pretty much in its infancy and I'd never ridden anyone else's foil before, so I didn't really know what foils were supposed to feel like, I've only ridden my own designs, my own feel, and I'd never ridden anyone else's foil, so I wasn't too sure. What is this supposed to feel like? But I just aimed for having as even foot pressure as possible on the front and back of the foil and yeah, that's, that was pretty much the design that us on the map, if I can put it that way. So signature foils it, they approached you because they heard that you're making good foils and then basically you started making designs for them. Yeah. So how did that relationship work and then how did you start your own brand? While you're also cause it's a little bit confusing cuz basically their foils are exactly the same as yours or are they different? No. Only our only, only when we first started. Oh, okay. So the vortex they called it the PTH. And then ours, the hyper they called it Theros  but they have got their own design end out cause obviously we totally independent now. Okay. And then I guess your newest foil is the vortex, right? No, the Viper. Oh the, the Viper. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so the Viper is from what I understand a little bit of a blend of between it's like a little bit of a blend between the best aspects from both the vortex and the hyper, that's right. So our vortex is our low aspect foil which is very popular in, in, in the early stages. And everyone's pretty much transitioned over to medium aspect or high aspect foils, just cause of the efficiency. The efficiency's so much higher on, on a narrow wing. So what everybody wanted was a foil that, that, that surfed like a vortex, but pumped like a hyper. So then did a collaboration with Adam Bennetts and this is what we made was the Viper. OK. Yeah. Okay. So in, in the early days, yeah, you had the collaboration with signature fo, but, and you still designed their foils, right? No, they've got someone else who's doing their designing now. I see. Okay. And then what made you decide to start uni foil? Or how did that get started? It just from sending the foils out of my workshop it just snowballed and, eventually it's you gotta came up with a name brand. I was like, oh, that is a lot harder than you think , it's not easy to come up with a name brand. I'll tell you what. Yeah. And, there's so many different names of what do you call your product? What are you call your brand? And in the beginning I actually had names of various fishes which I called the foils. And, but I still didn't have a brand name. And one day I was just thinking about it. And I just thought, uni being one being like a uni cycle and I thought uni foil and I was like, that's it? That is what I'm gonna call this brand uni foil it relates to being number one and it relates to being, a single file that you're writing. And that's pretty much how I came up with the name of uni. Yeah, like a unicorn  that's still coming  okay. And yeah, and Adam Bennetts is an amazing foiler yeah, like he phenomenal so a lot of I guess having good team writers like that I'm sure is very helpful. When in designing the foils. Yeah, no, he's got crazy talent. I think it's absolutely imperative that you have a team writer who has the ability to give you feedback that you can work on. Yeah. Very important. Okay. So yeah, I remember to came over to Oahu for this event that we had a few years ago that it was called hundred wave event and he had a team and the team had to catch a hundred waves and he had one of those signature Albatros foils, and they had a whole team of signature team. And, but came to wild was just like pu pumping around in circles, like catching one way after the other, just catch, like that's the first time I really saw someone just pumping like that. He does, he makes it look easy, but yeah, so talk explain to me how why are high aspect foils so efficient? What makes them more efficient in medium aspects and what, what are the what are the good and the bad? What's the good and the bad of the high aspect? Like what, yeah. So just kind talk a little bit about that know, and then also why you go, why you went back to a medium, more medium aspect versus a very high aspect way is a wing that has a very short cord line is always going to have less drag than a wing with a long cord line. Cause it's the amount of time that the water takes to travel over the cord. That's what gives you your drag. So if you can reduce that down you have less drag. So the highest  was designed to be as efficient as possible. It was purely designed for straight line to get from a, to B as efficiently as possible. So when I started designing that Ivan gave me GPS records just showing the average speed that Nathan was riding at to, I think it was 20. One or 23 kilometers an hour, somewhere out there. So I tried to optimize the efficiency at that speed to get as little drag as possible. So high aspect fours is all about efficiency. The disadvantage of high aspect fours is they do tend to not turn as well. Being such a wide w span they're not really intended to be written in the surface as much. That is my theory back then. And then these high aspect foils reached away and there was some riders that started using them in the surf. And I was like, no, you're not supposed to do that, that they're not made for that, but the guys were ripping on them. And I was like, wow, that's amazing, that they got the ability to turn that foil the sharp as what they could, but that's the real disadvantage is if you're an average to get a higher expert to really turn it, doesn't want to, it tends to Trapp pretty much on rails. That's why we came up with the mid aspect, foils mid aspect, foils for surf. Foing is just way better. These vis, when I get out on a session I actually just feel like I'm adding Bens, when you're doing these turns, cause you just, what I found with the high aspect stuff was you went along with the, for the right it'll going to the left and it's okay, we're going to the left and you pretty much follow the four where it wants to go. And it's a bit of a wild beast and changing over to the right. But you just think turn left and you do this nice, turn to the left. They just turn incredibly well, fair enough. The efficiency isn't as high as the hypers, but it's not very far behind in, in terms of pumping. So how did you achieve that and sorry to interrupt you, but how did you achieve the that turning the more turn in the Viper versus the versus the hyper just automatically by getting to a low it's gonna turn better that immediately it's gonna allow to turn better. Then the hyper profile is actually quite a slow profile. It's not a very fast foil. It was only made to cruise at, like I said, 22, 25 K an hour. And it, it does a very easy lifting for and the VI though has got a completely different profile. It's quite a bit faster than the hyper profile, but the front cur of the wing also helps it to turn. But of twist in the ring also helps it to turn. So there's me, there's different things that you can do to the foil to change its characteristics. So it, little bit of curve in, in the curvature of the foil itself. Yeah. So what happens is on aircraft, you've got DRI where the wings are like this. So when you're flying with it with an aircraft that has DRI, when the wings start to tilt over to the side, you have less lift on the w that is tilted. So then automatically it selfs. So now on the hydrofoil, that's the opposite. You actually put a curve into the ring like this. So when you turn over to the side, you lose the lift on the side, that is got the main lift. So automatically you're making the fourth unstable, so you're making it so that it turns a lot easier by adding in that little bit of a curve. Then I guess the downside of adding curve is that it makes it a little bit less efficient, cause the tips are not creating as much lift, right? Yeah. Yes. Or the surface area. Yes. Your actual area versus your projected area is not close, between the two, so then you lose efficiency, right? Yeah. Last week I talked to AIAN from access foils and he said to him, like the surface area of the wing of the foil is not as important as the wing span and the aspect ratio and things like that. Like he said that's why they use the wingspan as a measurement rather than the surface area. But your foils, you measure the surfaces square inches. Is that the number on the foil surface inches? And then is that the projected surface area or the it's actual, the actual surface it's actual, actual, actual surface area. Yeah. Okay. So how would you say high aspect foil, it seems like it creates a lot more lift at the same surface area, right? If it has a wider wing span, but a smaller surface area, it seems like it creates a lot more lift. Is that correct? You say it does generate a bit more lift. It's more efficient. So the lift data generates it generates it with a lot more efficiency. Basically, so it's basically your surface area dictates what amount of force your foil can pick up, not your span, not your cord. They do two degree, but the main thing is the surface area of the foil. So that's why we measure our foils in surface area. In hydraulics, the formulas, ethical speed times a, pressure times your area, it's got nothing to do with span or anything. And it's the same with the foil. When you're designing a foil and you're design a foil to lift a certain weight, you go on the surface area times the coefficient of lift, not the span. If we had to measure our foils with span our low expect foil has the same span as like for example a VI in 90 has the same span as a vortex one 50. If I had to say that the foils measured on the span, it would be very confusing to go through the different ranges or different designs of foils. Based on those numbers when somebody phones me up and says, what size foil do I need? The first thing I'll ask is what is your weight? Because your weight dictates what size foil you're gonna riding at whatever speed not the span of the foil. That makes sense. But I guess, because like you said, because the high aspect flow are more efficient. They basically create less drag. So you basically create, you can go faster and then that creates more lift because you're going faster. Is that basically why it feels like a smaller high, it just seems like a smaller, high aspect flow, smaller surface area, high aspect flow creates more lift than a bigger low aspect foil to me, but I guess it's because of the speed yeah. That you're traveling at higher speeds. Yeah. So a high aspect foil will have a much wider speed range. A low aspect foil tends to ride in a much narrower speed range. And then it blows out, whereas a high aspect foil can ride slower and it can ride faster. So your speed range on a high aspect foil. The speed window is definitely bigger. Yeah. Okay. You like, people used to say, like for beginners, it's better to use a low aspect foil cause it's more predictable and easier to use versus high aspect foil. Would you say that still applies or would you yep. Yes. I wouldn't necessarily even go to a low aspect foil, just a medium aspect, foil to learn to foil on, on a high aspect. Foil is you're going to make the journey very painful. It's not recommended. There's tons of guys that have done it. Now I'm talking about surf oiling for ring foiling different Keer fish for surf oiling to learn to surf oil on a high aspect foil. Definitely don't recommend it. It's and also it depends on your skill levels and your abilities and stuff. But generally I would recommend to, to learn to surf for on a high aspect for it, it just makes it so much harder, so much more difficult. With w foiling it's very different because you've got the third or, or something to hold onto. So your stability is, you are way more stable with a wing in your hands or kiting your hands than, without, so for w foiling, that's fine. You can start to learn on a high aspect quite easily. Okay. So would you say that winging is the one of the easiest ways to learn how to foil or what, like you said, behind a boat? Yeah, I guess behind a boat is probably one of the easiest ways, but without having a boat, if you, yourself, what would you say is the easiest way to get into foil? Oh, without a doubt ring foing is it's way easier than without a doubt ring foing is so much easier. And it's like I say, if you have the correct gear, you can be foing in three, four sessions, easily. Okay. It depends on age abilities conditions. But you can be easily foiling, in three, four sessions, I've got a bunch of mates that have learned to w for who already are foiling, however, but to, to learn to winful, you know, they're riding toe side on their first nation. But as I say, if it is possible and you can go out behind a boat first just to get that initial feeling of the foil, picking up outta the water. It's very weird that, when you first do it, and if you're learning with just a a wing as a power source it's a bit of a challenge, but it's certainly a lot easier than trying to learn with the kite that's. Yeah. That's next level. Yeah, totally agree on that. I've, I recently started using a more high effect of foiling. And one thing I noticed is that when you hit some turbulence in the water, like there's foam in the water or something from a wave, it seems like they just drop right away versus a lower as yeah. Lower aspect. Foil will be less sensitive to turbulence. So why is that? Why are they more sensitive to the turbulent water? Dunno how to say I just presume, because it's the amount of water on, on the surface area of the bottom of the foil just cause it's air. Yeah, dunno. Yeah. So you're not like, yeah, I was puzzled why that is. I guess it's just maybe cuz like you said, it has, it doesn't travel over the foil as long. So maybe, yeah, I don't, I dunno, but I thought you might have an answer for that, but no, I haven't got a clue. Yeah. Okay. But I liked your explanation of why they have less drag just basically cuz it takes the water less time to travel from the front leading edge to the trailing Android. So it just slips to the water faster. Yeah. Also your, your Paraic GRA is also a lot lower because on a high spec foil, you'll find that you fall nine times outta 10 is, is going to be a lot thinner than a lower aspect for the lower spec. Foils tend to be quite fat and junky where high spec foils are a lot thin. So you also goes lower drag just from your frontal drag. Yeah. And you said you're redesigning your high aspect, foils your hyper line. You're gonna come out with a new version of it soon, or? Yeah so the hypers have been, not now, like I said five years now, I think that came out 2017 and a lot of guys want to go faster. So the hypers were made to, to cruise at 22, 23 K an hour. That's just their cruising speed. So yes, that can go a lot faster. But the hybrid twos are now going to be purely for ringing. And then we bring in out a different range for down winding. So the hybrid twos are going to be quite a bit faster. The store speed will be a little bit higher. They're going to be aimed purely at in foil. So with foiling, you can have a higher stall speed on the foil, cause you've got that source of power. Like how much higher is the stall speed? Even for, I kind being able to kind like at the end of a jive or attack, if youre almost, you're almost stalling and then you can pump back out of it. It's nice to be able to do that without dropping off. But but having a super efficient foil is also a really nice and then having a higher top end, but I guess it always comes at a price on the low speed as well. But when you're talking a faster profile, is it just thinner or like what how did you make it faster? I'm just curious. It's a completely different section. So the section that was used in the, on the regional hyper, the maximum thickness was at 25%. If I remember correctly, somewhere around there and now the maximum thickness has just been moved further back. So you have a little bit less lift. You make the foil, excuse me. So when I made the hypers, because I didn't have access to a CNC machine, I didn't have I didn't have the luxury of trying many different variations Nathan and Ivan were flying to Hawaii to do the age two NTO. And I didn't have the luxury to, try this fall and that fall and try this section. So I had to play it safe if I can put it that, or I had to use a profile that I knew for definite would work. I didn't want to make a four that was too fast and it just too advanced that would stall, if you had a store halfway out and you couldn't get going again to be game over. So I had to come up with a four that I knew was going to work and it just gonna play it safe. And I knew from the data at the time that he had a very good chance of a podium finish, even winning the race because of the speed of the foil. And I could calculate over the distance, what sort of time to take him, to complete the race. But that was five years ago. Things have changed. Guys' abilities are just going through the, and so many people who are, who have got the talent and the skill to, to push the foils. Now, you've got access to stronger carbon. You've got the access to Highest, higher speed. So it's just what the guys want, they wanna go faster and faster. So yeah, it's about time that we do a revision on the hybrids. Yeah. The technology has changed so much in just the last few years and they have had the race cuz of COVID. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. Like they'll probably be it'll be probably a whole different ball game, by the time they hold it again next year, maybe. I guess it's not happening this summer either, but yeah, it'll be interesting to see like all the progression. And then what about the aspect ratio? Did you keep that about the same or did you make it even more high aspect or it has got a fraction higher. They're sitting at about eight to one now, eight, just over eight, somewhere on there. So just a little bit higher on the aspect ratio. So the first we're going to be releasing the first three, which is the one 70, the one 90 and the two ten first. And then at a later stage we'll release other sizes. And you said there, like there's different wings for winging and for down winding or are they the same gonna be the same just by size or how? We bring it out a completely different range for down winding. Oh, wow. And then what about mass? I was curious about mass links looks like at this time you only have two different sizes of mass. Is that correct? Three, we've got 7 50, 8, 30 and nine 50. Oh, you have a nine 50. Okay. Yeah. Then if it's on the website yeah, on the website, it only had two options. When you look at the mass choosing the eight 30, so you also have a nine 50, that's something I think definitely for do for wing foiling. It's nice to have a little bit longer mask because the chop and stuff, you can just fly over the chop without it, without having to follow the contours of the water, basically as much, but I guess for like down winding and surfing, having a longer mask can be a disadvantage because you don't, you're not as connected to the foil. You're more up higher. It's just that little delay that it takes turning from rail to rail on a long mot. Timing's different, everything's different. So generally the gas start on the seven 50 and if you're riding slightly bigger waves, then the eight 30 the nine 50 is it's not as popular. I use a nine 50, if I'm out in open ocean like you said, you don't have to hunt all the time, skimming over the cross. That's just, on the long, last it's awesome. You just blast over the top . But generally in, in the actual waves themselves I won't use a nine 50. I just, I don't like the delay from turning from rail to rail. I prefer the eight 30 it's yeah, way better. Okay. Interesting. And then yeah, so what about mass stiffness or like the whole stiffness? What are your, what's your take on the importance of stiffness and are, is that, would you say it's very important and like what are you trying to accomplish with stiffness or versus flex and stuff like that? That's a lot of people asking that question. You have to follow the trend. So people want stiffer Mo you've got a supply stiffer. So if that's the trend and that's what people want, then that's what you have to supply. I personally don't, on the winful our MOS are, for me personally are, are more than stuff enough. We have actually. We working on an extra stiff mask at the moment. I've just written the first two prototypes and yeah they extremely stiff. If they're totally necessary again it's up to each individual or what they want if you want a very stiff ma yes. So for me, I like the efficiency of a thin our standard ma are 12 millimeters thick at the base. So once you've written a mast with that efficiency in that speed, to go to really thick it's, that's what we love about is the efficiency. So you chopping off efficiency. So if you still have a, that the stiffness that you require, then so much better 20 writing, a 20 millimeter thick mot if however, you are required to to need such a stiff ma for pumping or for whatever it is, then, that's what you need to get. So we've also got a, an extra stiff mot it'll be available soon. It's not on the website yet. We're just finalizing the layout and the stiffness. Yeah. And then I've, I've noticed too that your like basically your front wing and your fuselage is all one piece. And I guess that's also to take out any kind of play or flex between the front wing and the fuselage rate. So this is something that I learned right at the beginning of making foils, cause my FOS used to be separate. The fuselage of the front ring used to be separate and I quickly realized that this is a weakness on the foil just because of the twist. So you'll see, there are no manufacturers that make or none that I can think of that make a separate carbon fiber fuselage. And the reason for this is because of the manufacturing process of having a two, five mold. Cause when you close the mold, you have a join line. And if your material doesn't cross that join line carbon is its weakest in sheer. And that fus just splits open the moment you apply a force on it. So right in the beginning I realized this, that Having these big wings on, on, on the, on a separate fuselage is not gonna work. That's why you'll see when guys have got separate fuselages nine times out of the 10, they might have made out of aluminum. So the first generations of the uniforms the fuselage in the front w were all just one piece, but the shipping and the traveling was just a nightmare. It was just very difficult to travel with it. And that's why we then put a split in the fuselage. But a one piece front wing and fuselage is far superior to having a connection there. And you'll see quite a few manufacturers that have changed over to this design purely for that, because it is superior in stiffness, right? The moment you have it there you drawing Allows for movement. So does, can you still adjust the angle between the front wing and the tail wing, or is there like somewhere you can trim it imperative, absolutely imperative that you are able to tune the foil to your liking. Yeah that's that's a given you have to be able to tune your foil to, to your liking. I've had two riders come from a to station and the one rider is the other one. Oh, if just had a little bit more front foot pressure and the guy's no, you mean a little more back foot pressure. And the guy's no, a little bit more front foot pressure. And they've just rid the exact same foil and they've got two different fields, so if you want that little more front foot pressure and you can't adjust that angle, what do you do? So if you have different weights, if one person raises 80 kilos and another one raises 90 kilos, you're gonna want to have a different feel fair enough. It takes years of experience to, to actually help, to feel the difference and to start to fine tune, as to what you actually like and what works well with your, what do you call it, ergonomics that that you like in, your style of writing. But there's definitely a shift in, in fo foyers going from backward press for is going from back foot pressure to front foot pressure. A lot of guys start falling and. They all write back foot pressure and slowly but surely they, that they're transitioning over to front foot pressure cause they see the advantages of it. Okay. So talk a little bit about the construction process and how involved are you in it? And so are your foils? Yeah, so we've had a absolute nightmare with manufacturing just from being able to produce the volumes that we need and the one manufacturer that we had didn't follow the layer requirements, that are stipulated to the factory and they applied what they've been doing for another customer. And I said, these wings are not gonna work. If you don't do the layout exactly the way I'll tell you to do them. And we had a batch of foils flail. So that was extremely frustrating. And to get them to follow instruction was also frustrating. So in the end we actually had to find a different manufacturer who would follow instructions, implicitly exactly the way I wanted them to, to. To lay these SWS up. And when we had the first Vipers come off the from this factory I said up on in Australia, cut the thing. And he is what? And I said, got it. So they cut the foil up into, I think, seven or eight different pieces. And we just reverse engineered it. Cause when you burn carbon you burn the epoxy off and you left is just the carbon and you can see exactly how it's been laid up. And I just wanted to be sure that they followed instruction on the way that must be laid up. And they literally followed every single layer and the Vipers are absolutely bomb proof. You can go crazy on them. They're so strong. So yeah very happy with our current manufacturer. And just all the details, all the small little details they, that they're falling to thet. So our current manufacturer is the best that we've had and the quality of the product shows it to hear that. Yeah, the fitment is beautiful. The finish is beautiful. The strength is beautiful. The the flex, everything on it is just 12 cars. I'm very happy with our current manufacturer. So I'm assuming, because to make a large volume production you have to basically go to big factory in Asia probably. So how has COVID affected that? I I guess it's really hard because you can't really travel to the factory and see what they're doing, so you kinda have to wait to get it and cut it open and see if they actually did what you asked. Yeah. That's that's tough. We kinda had a lot of issues with our standup paddle board production and stuff too during COVID. So actually let's talk about COVID a little bit, like, how was that in South Africa? It was pretty bad too for a while, right? Yeah. Yeah. They shut the country down for quite a while and then pretty much standard protocol throughout the world, I think. And then slowly we started reopening up with a lot of restrictions. It was difficult. Obviously I had to, I stopped R and D here. It does. Yeah, very difficult for Unifor because we had just started on the vis we'd moved factory and it put huge delays in, in our manufacturing. So yeah, we literally went down to an absolute crawl with being able to supply a product. Cause we had nothing that's so frustrating. Cause especially during the pandemic, so everybody wanted to get in the had free time. Yeah. Everybody wanted to buy stuff, but was so hard to get challenging very much. So would you say that like for UN what are some of the biggest challenges for you right now that what's keeping you at? Again it's one of those things I've I've been able to keep ahead as to The call for product for, which ways is the market going and to be on top of that and to listen to what people want. That is very important. For example like you're bringing up stiff masks, if people want stiff stiffer MOS, then you need to build to supply that that's, that alone is a challenge because, you need to be able to read the market and read what's required. Yeah. The thing is that sometimes people don't realize is that everything's a compromise, like you said if you want stiffer, you can make it thicker. You can make it heavier. But then is that gonna be better? Depends on the person. If, a heavier person with a big wingspan foil for them, it might make a big difference having an extra stiff mass versus, a lighter rider with a smaller foil that's surf oiling. Exactly. They might prefer really thin mass and they don't mind a little bit of flex. So it really really depends on the use case and stuff like that. And you always give up, you give up one thing and you get another thing. But yeah, there's no, no free lunch in designing things. For me, I say pick two fast, cheap or stable which two do you want? Because as you say, it's all about compromise. If you take from here, you've gotta give there, if you give there, you've gotta take here. So it's all about compromise. And that, it's also a bit frustrating because you can't make each foil for each specific rider. So you can have a a guy that raises 200 pounds that is riding a Viper 90 on a towing, but you can also have a person that raises 120 pounds, the exact same foil and they can do, but it would be nice to have one where the lighter rider rides, a lighter foil, it's impossible to manufacture like that. It's. Yeah. Yeah. And you wanna able to use the same mass on your big foils as you would on a small to, in foil that you don't wanna switch? Ideally yeah, you would use a, you would use a thinner mass for the higher speeds, but yeah, but it's not really realistic that to buy different. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the carbon mass are so expensive we got into for build construction for a while too. And we had so many problems. I just give up on it cause I just leave it to guys like you, that specialize in it. But one thing that I found really interested when interesting, when we were laying up mass and testing them was like, if you have the unit directional fiber, like how do you put the layers together? Cause if you put them all straight, then you get a very, that side to side, but then it has the torsional twist, then if you put them angles and you get like torsional stiffness, but not not so much side, side bending stiffness. And then I started reading up on it and I guess there's like all kinds of for jet fighters and stuff that get, make carbon wings. And it's it's pretty complicated technology, but yeah do you, I guess it's probably your secret sauce, but you wanna talk a little bit about that? How you do the layups and stuff. Nothing makes up for experience. Experience is the key. My, my very first carbon MOS that I made outta the mold was a 100% flop  because the first MOS that I made was just over a wood core. And it was, it just perfect, to spine. And the first malt that I made, I just thought, if I go a little bit thick on the carbon this is gonna be incredibly I'm uh, seven years ago is this seven, seven years ago. And I made this MOS and it's an absolute noodle. It's just terrible, and I was like, you know what, what's going on? What did I miss? And, just did a little bit of research and little bit of reading on it. And I was like, I just missed the absolute basics of it. And when you have a ma that is constant cord versus a ma that is tapered your tape is far superior to a constant cord. And so quickly calm the CNC cut tape type it ma and yeah, night and day difference. But for actual layups schedules, you. You just have to test, you have to lay up Dele tests. And yes. See what sort of stiffness you, you require from that. So why? Yeah. So why is a tapered mass better? I guess obviously the forces close to the board is, are the highest right, where the master attaches to the board, but why is that? And why is it more efficient? Why does it taper master? It's just the mechanics of it. It's just the mechanics of how it works. You driving your two faces in the triangle it's and the thickness because you, those two layers are trying to share each other. So when you push those two layers, apart from each other, you your strength goes up exponentially. So if you can make the base of the MOS thicker and then tape it down, because you only have probably what a third of the, in the water most of the time. So if you can have just the part of the, that's exposed to the water as thin as possible, you have, you definitely have to a cord. And then, but doesn't, then don't, doesn't it cause more like torsional flex and stuff at the end of it, if it gets the, or do more torsional flex again it's what is acceptable and what are you chasing? What you, what is, what are you trying achieve with this? If you want a, then nothing makes up for the thickness of the cord. If thicker cord, it's always you if, if go go to a thicker cord, it's always going to be superior then going to a higher you can get away with a low on a very thick cord. Cause that distance is imperative. It's what makes it so much strong. Okay thanks for this deep dive into flow design. Do you wanna talk a little bit about other equipment and I know you make wings as well, so what are you trying to optimize for in wing design and like what's your goal? So we onto our third generation wing now. Again, it's also it's also been a long learning curve. I don't design the rings myself. We have a manufac a designer who designs for the manufacturer. But we just wanted a ring that was user friendly. So something that had a lot of low end grant, because I think that's where a lot of guys struggle is the initial takeoff on the wing. So to have low end grant was definitely high on, on the list and then just very user friendly. We didn't want anything that tucked or dived that, that is actually the first generation that's shown there. So we actually two generations down from that. Those are old pictures. Oh, okay. We've just released our new wing. That's called the pin. It's on the latest pull magazine. You'll see. There's the address in the latest falling magazine. Okay. That would be released probably in the next four weeks, six weeks kinda thing. So how does, how is it different from your, from these older designs? Everything from the actual outline of the wing to the materials used now using triple rip stop in the canopy and just refined many things like to me, what I didn't like on the initial wings was the amount of handles. I don't like a wing with lots of handles, that you gotta move your hand from handle to handle. So that was one of the first things that we changed. So the new wing has only got three handles which makes a huge difference that in inability that you can just move your hand slightly up and down the handle and, to keep where wherever you wanna hold the and just the there's you can see on that there's only three handles, which picture? Sorry. A little bit lower down. Just if you scroll this one here, little bit more, little bit more, little more. There we go. Oh, this one here one. Yeah, actually that's just the second generation. You just close that and you look at the one just above where you jumping in the air. Yes. That you'll see. There's only three handles on that ring. Correct. So that is our current. And then you it's also with still without windows though. So the five meter and the six meter has windows the two, three and four doesn't have a window.  Just because the bigger sizes tend to be that little bit bulkier and, to move a big ring out the way. So we decided to put windows on, on the bigger sizes. OK. OK. And then what do you design boards as well or not? Not at this time. We are in the process of doing our boards. Again, the website will be updated very soon. We're working on a new, completely new redesign of our whole product list. So over the next, probably three, three months, you'll see that there's going to be a huge change in products available on the website. Nice. Yeah. Glen Glen is one of your team writers or distributors here on the north shore too. And I interviewed her as well, and she's pretty amazing. She was like wing fulling, pregnant at overdue already, like she was already supposed to be in the hospital giving a birth, but she was still winging  in big waves. But anyways, she's amazing. And yeah and she seems to really like the foils and she does, she's amazing on the foil, so that, and Ted as well. So I know there's some good writers here using them. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the what's the foiling scene like in South Africa? What, I guess it, it in where you live it's a crowded there. Isn't a, like a Jeffrey bays a crowded surf spot. So it's not easy to foil there. So what do you do for foiling? Like where do you go? Where is that? Where the happening places and what's going on. So our conditions don't favor foiling that much here in Jeffreys by itself. The if you go down to, to lower point with the waves got a little bit less energy, you can foil there, however you are going to upset a lot of the locals. So we don't recommend it. You in know, foiling and surfing, it's two different things. And I think safety is very important. If you are going to foil there, you need to be a competent foiler and you need to know what you're doing, and you need to steer clear of the service cause you're just gonna upset them. So I don't recommend foiling, at the foing at the surfing spots here, we have got other places that you can go foing. We mainly tow foil, so we've got the luxury of being able to choose from a variety of circuited spots where it's just, two guys and that's it. But with wing foiling, we have got a southwesterly wind that blows here which blows from the town next door St. France to Jeffrey bay. It's about 10 kilometers. And I've done it once and it's awesome. So I'm really looking forward to the summer to, to a lot more that's pretty much focusing this, doing this start winding, so be very excited. And is that with wings? Oh, sorry. Is it with wings or with paddles? No. With wings. Wings, definitely with wings. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I just find it so much safely, something goes wrong. With the w it's just so much easier, I think later on our progress to, to, just being paddle only or prone only, but at the moment, definitely with wings yeah the safety aspect is just so much higher with the wing. If something happens, the wind dies, whatever happens. Yeah. That, that's true. It's just much easier with the wing cuz you're always gonna be able to get back up on foil again if it's windy enough. But but I've also heard horror stories of people like losing their wings or like the leash ripping and the wings go flying away. You're like way outside on a small wing board and then you have to paddle in, so yeah. Yeah. I dunno if you've ever, if you've ever lost a foil. I've never not a leash. The actually I've broken leashes before on, on the board, but usually in, in the waves. And then, usually the board ends up in the channel somewhere and you can get it, but the wing like actually lost the wing one time and it just ended up, like from diamond, it ended up in Waikiki and somebody got it. And then I got it back, like weeks later, but I, somebody heard that I lost it, but yeah, it's a good idea to put your name and phone number on your wing.  yeah. If your lease breaks, if your lease breaks on a foil board and you added sea, there's no way you're catching that board. It's got, yeah, it's strong takes off and it just, it just goes on its own. Safety is extremely important. We don't any incidences you knowing, so always go out in group. We still, in early days, we, we will out with a backup jet ski or a backup boat just in case something happens. You rip your wing, whatever it is I wanted to be a pleasant experience. Yeah. And then also always go out with other people. Like the buddy system is always a good idea and don't wanna do stuff by yourself and get in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the things that's putting a lot of us off is a lot of us come from a kiting background and because our wind is offshore we never cut in the offshore wind because it's just too dangerous. Whereas if you go wing foiling you eliminate a lot of that danger just because, the dynamics of w foiling is just so much it works well even in the offshore wind not recommended for a beginner obviously, but having that mentality of coming from the kiting background it, it really is something that sit in your mind, it's I'm going offshore, wind. So yeah. Yeah. It's just one of those hurdles that you need to get around. What I find is guys who don't have a kit kiting background, they feel nothing. They're just gonna jump in the water and there they go, because they haven't had that fear put into them from getting an offshore wind kite. Yeah. Challenging. Interesting. Yeah. I've never I never really got that much into kiting. I was into wings, wind surfing. For many years and then, kiting camera on, I was like, ah, I like windsurfing better still, but  I tried it a few times, but I never got good at it. But then when winging came around to me that was like the freedom of not having the wing attached to the being able to, it's kind a little bit of a hybrid between kiting and windsurfing. I, so I so wish that I started earlier with this wing ringing because I still stuck with a kite and I only started last year with it. And I so wish that I started early on because when it actually came out, I bought a wing of just too small and it just frustration. It just so frustrating. And then last year I got a couple six meters and total game changer for me, having a wing that's the correct size. And yeah, I wish I started two years ago with it because it, like you say, it gives you that freedom and you can go anywhere you like. And what really appeals to me is to be able to, to de power the wing, on, on a kite, you can't do that when you're on the wave, you've got such a narrow section that you can ride in. If you go a little bit too far to the left in the kite, toss out the sky, if you go forward to onto to the right, then you are, you're pulling against the kites. So you've got such a narrow little spectrum that you need to ride in, kite fo, whereas w foing. Go for it. You go where you want a wave power up again, and you're going, yeah. With the K2, you can't like totally de power it because then it drops out the sky. You always gotta pull in the lines. So with the wing, you can really totally just de power it. And it's pretty much not there anymore almost. And it's you can, it's to toll and surfing without needing a jet ski, really you can to yourself into waves basically, which is pretty cool. Not exactly if it's strong offshore winds, it does catch quite a bit of wing and wind. And it's hard. It'd be nice to not have it on the wave. But I guess there's some guys like experimenting with dropping the, like getting on the waves and dropping the weight or something and then coming back I've some of those videos, the guy just tosses the ring and there you guys like, yeah. I'd like to be able to do that. Yeah.  yeah. That's interesting. But anyway, so I guess in South Africa, the biggest win wing foil scene is probably in Cape town then, that's cause there's wind and there's like a wind scene and everything. So yes. Is that where you like where would you say, do you sell the most foils is it in, in South Africa or where, which market is the most. Lucrative for your most successful? I only deal with south African distribution, so I only sell in, in, in South Africa. But yeah, Cape town definitely is by far the fastest growing and the biggest scene seen um, it just works there, they you've got wind all the time in the summer season. So yeah, it just works really well. Yeah. And a lot of Europeans come when, cause it's when it's winter in Europe, it's summer and Cape town and they go down there to enjoy the wind. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Cape town quite a few years ago and I hadn't been to, to dolphin beach in, in years and pitching up there and you see literally, 50, 60, 70, 80 kites, it's crazy. It's yeah. Just hundreds of, yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's not the case where you are and yeah. So I guess you're, it's more, it's actually kind more rare to see foil people foiling there and Jeffrey, or not as many to go ago, just but is, are there ways that are like GE, like when you do go to foiling, are there ways that you can ride super long ride, get super long rides on the foil like that? Like the, those kind of secret spots you're talking about, or, yeah, we've got like our local spot where when the swell comes through, we just go through and tow there. But there are some places where you can get really long rides yeah for tow falling. It's completely different. Because of the, like I said, you've got the accessibility to choose you want to go. We don't really have crazy big waves or anything here. There's a couple guys in Cape town that ride dungeon, which is a massive wave. It's an absolute monster wave. Not for me though. That's yeah, it's a bit crazy. Here on the north shore, a lot of times when there's big waves on when you're wing foing you can catch the wave. From two miles out and ride it for like almost a mile before you get to where the surfers can catch it, so we got like this huge playground and then we just kick out and then the guy, the surfers get like the last little bit right before the wave hits the beach. But so it's pretty cool. It just opens it way up to be able to get, the foils are so efficient that you can, you don't need a steep wave. You just need a kind of, a little bit of a wall or that's something you can ride. I think as the sport progresses I think you'll have a lot more people seeing exactly that, that, that's why surfing never really appealed to me because the amount of time that you're on the wave. The amount of time that you had to dedicate to the sport. I just didn't have that, that luxury of that time and to go for a two hour serve session and catch 3, 4, 5 waves, of 20, 30 seconds each, that, that didn't really appeal to me at where's cutting, you're on the board all the time. You have a two hour session you're on the board for two hours. And I think this is when more surface see, sees an appeal of foiling where you, like you say, you can go out crazy far and you can ride for so much longer. I really think that we, in the infancy of wing foiling it's just going to grow exponentially. Yeah. Do you think it's gonna get crowded or where people are gonna be not telling other people where they're going, because they don't want more peoples to show up or something like that.  I think it's still a long way from that because there are so many spots, it's the same as with surf oiling, guys are now looking at areas that you'd never considered to go and surf because the conditions don't work. So I think it's gonna be the same as wind foing. As, as long as you've got a decent wind a steady wind, then it doesn't even have to be that steady, but consistent. Yeah you can go jump in the wood and have a blast of that. Yeah. One of the beauty, beautiful things about wing falling is that you can really do it anywhere. You don't need waves, really. You don't, you just need water and wind, so you, and you don't need like a big beach where you can launch a kite or whatever, you can just walk down some rocks and jump in and go wing, pretty much anywhere exactly that's, it's really opens it up to pretty much anywhere in the world really, which is pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. So for you, like you said, you've been waiting for about a year. You wish you've done it sooner and stuff, but would you say for learning, is it mostly practice or is it more talent or, would for your yourself, would you say that you you learn just, is it just putting in the time to get better or do you take things from other sports and its like certain things you already know and learn learn to observe and. To me, wining foiling is no different than riding a bicycle. If you can ride a bicycle, does it require talent to ride a bicycle? Not really. It requires the time to, to climb on it. And to spend that time to, to get your muscle memory, to, to recognize, the inputs that are required to balance and windings exactly the same. So anyone that i

Aloha friends! It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, which I produce right here in my home office, in the garage. In today's interview, I speak with Adrian Roper, the man behind AXIS foils. We get into some tips for beginners, and then we talk in detail about foil design, how to set up the foil properly, how different things affect different things on the foil. New designs he is working on, the mast, importance of stiffness, the fuselage, the angles of the foil. So many cool technical things. I learned a lot from this show. I hope you do as well. I wanted to apologize in advance. The auto focus on my camera keeps going in and out focus, and it's very frustrating for me, but I didn't wanna stop the flow of the interview.  I hope you can just overlook that and focus on the technical details in the interview. You can watch this interview right here on YouTube, or you can listen to it on your favorite podcast app. So I hope you enjoy this show and as always, please give it a thumbs up if you like it, subscribe to the blue planet surf YouTube channel, and without further do here is Adrian: Okay. Adrian Roper. Welcome to the Blue Planet show. Thanks so much for joining me. How are you doing today? Good, thanks. Yep. Beautiful sunny day. And it's pretty glassy out there. So it might be a good day to go fishing. Nice. And you're for you. It's like the middle of winter right now, like for us it's summer, but you're on the other side, so it's pretty nice. Is it pretty cold or how cold is it? It's cold, like compared to Hawaii it's cold, but still went foiling yesterday and had quite a good session. Excellent. I didn't have a full on thick suit on either, so it's not too bad. Okay. Yeah. All right. So this season that I'm trying to start a little bit with beginner tips right away in the beginning. Last year, I always did that  as an afterthought at the very end, but I want to start with some good tips for people that are new to wing foiling. And then we're gonna talk a little bit about your background and and get more into. The equipment side of things and technique and so on. So let's start with that. What are some tips you have for people that are new to wining foing same look, we have quite a few learners around us and I guess one of the biggest things is when you're learning, you don't know how to pump properly and getting up on the coil is the biggest. Just getting up and going. So having a little bit bigger hydrofoil than you might normally think, is a good idea, cuz it helps you get up and also having a slightly bigger wing as you improve with your skills, you don't need quite so much having an easy writing foil makes a difference. And like with the access stuff the BSC range that we came out with, the bigger ones, the 1 0 6 oh and the nine 70, they were particularly good and they are particularly good for people to learn on. And then we've also introduced the recently the SES, which is like a complete package and that comes in 1 0 4 oh and nine 40 and it's basic and simple.  But it works really well. And it's a great entry into the whole access platform. You can, upgrade it as you want bits and pieces wise. But it they're both the BSC range and the SES are particularly good for learners. You can stand in slightly the wrong place, you get away with a murder with them and they just, they still ride along quite nicely easy to carve, nice to ride. Okay. So using a. Big foil and a big wing. That makes a lot of sense. And then, yeah, so you have that super easy start package now where I guess it's made particularly with beginners in mind. Yeah. Yep.  Same base plate, same mask. The fuselage is slightly different, but it's similar to our normal red fuselage. The front wing was based on a BSC wing. But we've rounded the ends off more so that you can't stab yourself so easily. And we also, because we're, it's a different construction, we've made it out of colonial wood. So it's a solid wood core with a fiberglass laminate. And that makes a strong wing, that's a bit more affordable. And we thin the profile out a little bit on it which is actually quite a good thing. It runs quite nicely and it's a fun setup to use. Okay. And then right now you have it in two sizes. So basically one for the the bigger riders with almost 2000 square centimeters and then one for li right. Lighter riders with 1668 square centimeters. So both of those should have plenty of lift, right? Yeah. I think a lot of people, when you're getting into foiling, they walk into a store and there's just so many foils and it's also confusing and they just, I don't even know where to start. This breaks it down to AO over 80 kg or less than 80 kg. This is the one that'll work for you, and it makes it a lot easier. And they can go away, get started, have fun and work it out from. Okay. And then obviously you're also using a floaty stable board, especially when you're starting out. Definitely makes it easier, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah. Some of our learner boards are, have ridiculous amounts of volume in them. We work with a school in Auckland here and we've got a board there. That's I think it's six foot eight and it's, I dunno, 160 liters or something. It's crazy volume. They've used that with the 1 0 4 oh SES package and it just gets people up and going. It's not you don't necessarily ride it too many times cuz it's such a big board, but no matter, someone can stand on it, wobble around, easy to get up and going. You've gotta make it easy. I think for beginners, it's not it's not an easy, not a super easy sport to learn at the start, so you've gotta make it so that everything lines up easy and not too hard to get into. Yeah. I would say though, like you progress pretty quickly past that beginner board stage there very quickly. So I would recommend, instead of buying one, maybe either borrowing a big board or using a big standup foil board or just renting one, or taking in a lesson and then if you have a school me, that's the best thing is to take a lesson from a school and they can, work you through a couple of boards so that the, by the time you buy a board, it's something you're actually gonna hang on to for a little bit, because you do move down. You're right. You do move down very quickly through the boards. And then in terms of like that, I mean that those are good tips for equipment, but what about technique or Conditions and so on. What kind, what are some other things selecting? Selecting good conditions are really important. Like finding somewhere that's not too choppy. And if there's waves and stuff, it's hard work to swim out through waves and try and, get up and going while there's waves around. So if you can find a sheltered Harbor or lake situation to learn, that makes it a lot easier and finding wind, like I said before, getting up and going is the difficult thing. So if you can still learn the lessons of standing up and holding the wing and getting things in five knots. But you are unlikely to get up and going. So when you are ready to get up and going, you need 15, 18 knots to get up and going. Really. It makes it easier if there's a bit of breeze, bit of power. Yep. Agreed that. Yeah. Ideally you want about a little bit 15 to 20 knots maybe and smooth water if possible. And then. Also a place where you can if you end up drifting down wind where it's easy to get back up wind or, where you don't end up getting blown offshore or something like that. Yeah. Our local beach manly here is really good for learning. You start at the top end, you go out, you make a couple passes and if you get going good, if you don't, you slowly drift down the beach and end up on the beach and just walk back up the beach again and have another go. It's, you don't wanna be in an offshore situation where without other people around where you're gonna get blown away, for sure. Okay, great. Yeah. Those are some good tips, I think for people starting out. And so let's talk a little bit about you your background, like where, where did you grow up and how did you get into water sports? How did you get into the foiling industry or, water sports industry I was actually born in America. I was born in chapel hill, in North Carolina. My father was going to university there and I lived there till I was about two. And then I moved back to New Zealand and to Auckland New Zealand and grew up here. I spent time in my father, did a sabbatical leave from university and I lived a year in Bristol when I was about, I don't know, maybe 10 or something. And then, but I basically grew up at the beach in Ross bay, in Auckland. I had a peak class at little sailing dinghy, and I learnt to sail yachts. As a young kid had a boat and did lots of fishing and stuff Ming around from there. And some of my mates started getting wind surfers and it was the early, early, early days of windsurfing. And I wanted to windsurfer as well. And my parents wouldn't buy me one. I was 14 or something, I think at the time. And my mother offered to help me build one. So I did lawn mining rounds and got the money for it. And I actually found a recipe for a windsurfer and a French magazine, and I had to learn French so that I could translate it. You didn't have internet back then, so it was a bit more tricky. And I built the windsurf for myself from scratch in the back room. It was Paula Styron. So there's bubbles everywhere in the back living room of the house. And it was plywood skinned and I made the sail and the mast and the boom and all the various bits of it. And my mother helped me with that. , I. They were trying to just help me learn to do things for myself. And they had ideas of me going to university and everything, but I just got so struck by windsurfing and building things that I got into that. And I've done that ever since. I got a job at a windsurfing shop when I was about 18 years old and I learned to laminate and I also worked in sales in the shop. And then when I was, where was this? Was this's in, in Aland. In Aland. Okay.   Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then when I was 19 20. I decided to move to Hawaii and I actually came to Oahu, cuz I thought that was the spot to go to. And I was in Lana, Kai, what's the spot there. I worked for windsurfing Hawaii for okay Kai. Yeah.  Yeah, Kai bay. And I went surf there for a bit. But after a month or so everyone kept coming back from Maui raving about Maui. So I thought, oh, I better go to Maui. So I rang a mate of mine, used to work for a. And and Mai SALs Maori. So I rang SALs Maori and asked if they had any work. And they said, oh, maybe try the factory. So I rang the factory and I got hold of some guy called Jimmy Lewis. And he said, what do you do? And I said I'll laminate. And he said I'll laminate her left yesterday. How soon can you get here? So I flew over and Jimmy gave me a job at Sal woods Maui, and that was run by Mike Walt and Fred Haywood and Jimmy. And it was in the old cannery. And that, so I worked there for a year or so and did that and that it was great fun. And I went back and forths between Hawaii and and and New Zealand. And when I came back to New Zealand I started shaping boards. Jimmy had given me a few ideas about shaping. So I learned to shape boards in New Zealand and built wind surface. I had many. Sorry, the time in you are in Mai, when was that? Like in the eighties or 83 or something like, that was one of those. Okay. Okay. It was pretty early on right a year or so since Mike Wal had discovered who keeper as a windsurfing destination. So it was great. That's when they just like, started using foot straps and like tiny boards and stuff like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't that long after harnesses, even it was early. Things developed quite quickly there and over the trips I worked for various people, I worked for Angulo as a fiberglas for years. And then I ended up getting a job working for Peter Toman, who was the F two shaper. And he built all Bjorn, dunker, Beck, and Brit dunker, Beck's race boards and most of the world cup teams. So I did all a board building for them, and there was another guy did the Sandy and finishing, and Peter did all the shaping and learned. So much there, Peter was really great and very analytical with the way he did things. And it was a pretty good situation too, because they had, it was the heyday of windsurfing. And there was plenty of money for things. So we could try anything and, anything we'd tried, it didn't necessarily have to be sold to make money. It worked, it didn't work. We learned something from it, move on, it was so we learned a lot about construction quite quickly and had a lot of fun with that. So I did board building with that forever. And in my time when I was coming back and forwards, I started a company in New Zealand called underground and it was underground windsurfers at the time. And I built underground windsurfers for years. And I built them in Auckland originally and then built them in, I, one of the times I came back from ma I ended up being in Christchurch. So I built a factory in Christchurch and built windsurfers there. I'd windsurf at that stage for a lot of years and I was a little bit bored with it. Especially if it wasn't decent waves or whatever, and the local conditions, weren't that exciting. And then we saw videos of kite surfing and, from Maui and some of the early stuff and thought that looks cool. So thought we'd get into that. So we started building boards and found a. And Ash Burton, Pete, Peter Lynn and he was building kites and he was selling them in Europe. So we ended up hooking up with him and building kite boards. And, we started just doing Peter Lynn, kite boards, but then we did more and more underground kite boards and we sold those all around the world. And that for years built the factory up, had a lot of guys working full time and it was pretty full on. And then one day we had a fire and everything got burnt, gone overnight. So we lost the factory. The retail store sail loft, everything was gone and had to rebuild from scratch. And that was an absolute mission. And by the time I'd redone that I'd started to lose a lot of, a bit of enthusiasm for that. I just needed a break. And a guy in China offered to. My label underground and the whole setup and that their construction system. So sold that and moved that to China. And I went back and forth and learned to work in China basically. And that didn't go so well for them for various other reasons of things that happened in China at the time. And the underground label went bankrupt and there was a bit of a sad time, but it wasn't my baby anymore, but it was still something I'd created. So it was a bit sad. And at that stage Evan who I worked with in the states he had been selling my underground boards in San Francisco for years. And he was one, he was the first to sell my underground boards there. And he said, look, what you had was too good, let's start something new. So we came up. With the name access. And originally we were building kit boards and we did that. And then Evan got hooked on foiling and tricked me into getting hooked into foiling  and started with kite foiling and then learned to sub foil and did sub foiling for quite a long time. And then when winging came along, got into that. And did you come up with the name access? I'm curious. We had a lot of different, there was a struggle and we had a lot of different names. One of the problems with underground was always fitting it on the board. It such a long name. It always became a little skinny ribbon on the bottom of the board. So we figured it had to be something about three or four letters long. And, it took a long time, but what we liked about access was it, with kite surfing, it was rotating around an axis. So a lot of the kite loops were spinning around an axis, jumps off axis. Axis is a pivotal moment as well. It just, it, I don't know, it made sense and I like it and okay. You never know where a name you start with something and it changes to what the sport changes and it doesn't fit anymore. But I think access is a good name. I like it. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so then you got, so you got into kite foiling, keep going  kite foiling, and then start foiling and did that in Christchurch a lot and developed stuff foils to a point we started doing that and we started using our original mask that we had back in the day. And it was an OEM mask. It was only 15 mill thick aluminum, and it was pretty wobbly. And our first wings that we built were, nine, 20 sort of span. And we pretty quickly realized that mask just wasn't gonna work. While a lot of other companies were jumping onto. Sport and building product, we were desperate keen to build product, but we felt like everything needed to be redesigned. And so starting with that mask, we worked out that for kite foiling, it was okay at about seven 50, but at 900, it was just a noodle and it was impossible to use. So we worked out that it needed to be 224% stiff. To be the same feel at 900. So that was our target figure. And we actually came up with our original 19 mil aluminum mass, which we still build now. And that was, it was 224% stiffer than the original. And it was only an 8% weight gain. So when you build a, an aluminum extrusion, you can draw it up on the computer and you can analyze the bending moment of it and change. See the stiffness. You can work out how long a masks gonna be, how much it's gonna weigh, how stiff it's gonna be and analyze all that way before you even build it. So we went through that and did that and came up with a 19 mill mast. Originally it was designed for sub foiling and relatively slow speeds. And it's absolutely fine for that. It's actually fine for winging as well, but as the sport has evolved and things have got going a lot faster 19 mills is thick and it's not perfect for high speed to foiling for example, but the stiffness we felt is really important. And that's something that we've always run with our foils from day one. Yeah, I mean that the stiffness of the whole setup, not just the mass, but also the way the fuselage connects to the front wing and all that's what sold me on access and why I started using it. And and also of course the many different wing designs you have available and always evolving with more and more. Yeah, so we'll get into the gear, but so then basically just wanted to finish the story of like how you got into this. So then from the making foils for standup paddling yeah. So then what was the evolution from there? We also, as a sideline back then we built a foil for windsurf foiling and it was a 900 span. And I can't even remember how narrow the cord was, but was quite a narrow high aspect wing at the time. It was completely different to anything else. And we ended up using it for surfing a lot and for prone and for for supp as well. And that was a turning point as of discovering that wings don't have to be these low aspect, big fat piggy things. So . Yeah. And that was the first wing that I used for the 900 was the first wing that I used when I went wing. Okay. Okay. And then it's, it seemed like when you first started access, it was more focused on board building and so on. And now it seems like you're more focused on foils. What's your percentage of like foil sales versus board sales, what approximately? I don't know exactly without looking at a thing, but I we, I've spent a lifetime building boards and I feel like I've tried just about everything that you can try. And very quickly I can say, yep, that works, doesn't work. And I know that, cause I know it inside out and then foiling came along and I didn't really know how to build hydrofoils. And just the way that I work, like I questioned everything, there was other foils on the market and, they were doing, Everything that like, for example, some of the early fours, the front wing was set at the same angle as the fuselage. And I said why is that? And everyone said, oh, it's just how it is. And it's had been, the first people did that. And then everyone just copied that. And I tried to question everything that we did. And try and work out. I think if you can understand the reason for something, it makes it a lot easier to nut out what, how you're gonna build it better. I try and do that with customers as well. When I'm talking to people, I probably give 'em too much information, but I try and educate them so that they can actually understand it and then they can make a sensible decision. Cause it kind makes sense. But that, that front wing fitting on there, for example, we, every foil that we analyzed has a, an angle of attack where like obviously more angle of attack you generate more lift a flatter angle of attack. You generate less lift, but it can go faster. Every foil section has a different sort of sweet spot and you can analyze that. And our original wings, we set at about two degrees to the fuselage and now the modern a R T HBS they're set at one, one degree to the fuselage, the idea being that the fuselage is running. For the most part through the water in a straight line, like an arrow, not dragging like this, not, up or down, just straight through  that foil angle changes as you go faster and slower, but generally for most of you, you are riding it. It's running straight. Yeah. And I guess I like, and I know a lot of people shim their their plate Mount between, between the board and the plate Mount. And that kind of, I guess if the board has, it seems if the board has a little bit of tail rocker, then the board you can lift up on the foil, but it's, I guess if the, I noticed that if the boy, if the foil is angled up too much, then when you're flying at high speeds, you end up flying with the nose slightly pointed downward, and then that's like catastrophic if you touch down because you're basically wipe out right away. And it seems like it's easier, definitely easier to control the foil once it's up. If the nose is, if any, if anything, a little bit higher flying a little bit high than, or flat, but definitely not pointed downwards, right? Yep. I think with your board, when it, my fingers don't go straight anymore, but when a board touches down if it touches down tail first like that it's gonna crash pretty badly. If it touches down those first, obviously that's complete disaster. You want it to touch about where the base plate is or just in front and it just pop back up again. So right. That the angle that you need to set your board at, and , generally when I build an access foil and an access board, everything works together with no need for any shim on the base plate, but right off using an access foil with some other board. And there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes you need to adjust the angle that the board flies on a little bit with a  shim. Yeah, yeah. Cuz yeah, basically if you add more angle to the front wing that, that angle of attack it's a little bit easier to take off. Like the takeoff speed is lower a little bit, but then at the same time sometimes it's harder to control it at high, higher speeds. I've not, I've noticed if it have too has too much angle, but yeah. So ideally if it's tuned you want it to be easy to lift off, but also easy to control at higher speed. So it should just run along without too much, lifting up or dropping down. It should just run along nicely. I've actually just, I got pissed off with the whole shimming thing because it seems to be a complete and utter confusion for most people. And a couple of three days ago, I just wrote it, wrote, I sat down and explained it all and wrote it all down properly and we're actually adding it to our brochure and it will be in there. And it explains shimming of the rear wing and also base blade shimming and. Like I said before, if you explain it to people, it's pretty basic. And once it's explained, it's a lot easier to understand happy to go through that a little bit and explain that the shim rear wing the shimming, the rear wing. Yeah. Let's get into that. Yeah. I find that my, on my axis wings that I've used, I've been able to just use 'em without any shims not necessary, but I guess, yeah, I have tried adding the shim in the tail in the back, but I didn't really, how much do you weigh? Sorry, go ahead. Oh, how much do you weigh? I'm like   like 1 95 pound hundred 95 pounds. Which is I think around 90 or around, yeah. Around 90 kilos. So you're, you are the correct weight if you are the correct weight, same as me. Then everything should run smoothly. If you're outside that weight range, if you're really light or if you're really heavy, then adding some shims helps a little bit. Okay.  Just, I've got some bits here to try and explain it. There's your fuselage and there's your front wing and that bolts on that front wing there, this is an a R T 7 99. Access always does their wings by span, and I can go into that later as well, but that, that front wing is set at one degrees to, to diff fuselage the more angle of attack the more lift, the less angle of attack the faster it goes. . I'll try and explain this as, as well at the moment now. So the angle that this wing flies at you can't trick the wing into riding at a different angle that rides at the angle that it wants to ride at. And more angle of attack is more lift and then less angle of attack is less lift. It happens. I'll quit that stupid mail in, yeah, my mail app too.  go ahead. When you are riding along it, if you are riding it too much of an angle of attack, the foiler will come up and will jump out of the water and you'll crash. If you're riding it too lower, an angle of attack, the foyer will drop down and your board will hit the water. So you don't actually have to think about it, your wing automatically, you automatically set the angle of that wing so that it's about right for this. And the angle of that wing rides at is dependent on your weight and how fast you're going. So I generally set it all up for winging and around 85 kg. So if you are, most of the wings will run straight, no gyms, no need for anything at if you are around about that weight now. So the front wings angled up slightly, one degree the rear. This is a 3, 2, 5 that's actually angled downwards slightly. So the front one's angled up. The rear one's angled down. The reason that's angled down is it actually, and the foil sections upside down. So it's actually pushing downwards. That downward force actually pro provides a lifting force, which balances a against your front foot. When you are foiling, you have a front foot pressure and back foot pressure. And you're basically standing around that wing and, trying to balance nicely on that. The size of this rear wing the bigger it is, the more force it, it gives you. And when you are learning and you are more clumsy, you need more force to actually balance against, but as you get better, you can use smaller and smaller wings and you need less to balance against. So that back wing as stock on the fuselage. The progressive wings, that's angled downwards at one and a half degrees. So the most important thing about shimming is the angle between the front wing and the back wing. So if that front wing is angled up at one degrees, the back wing is angled down at one and a half degrees. The difference between the two is two and a half degrees. So that number two and a half degrees, that's it. That's the one that actually matters. And that's the one that counts. Everything else is hoo-ha, the angle to a tree over there or whatever, it doesn't make any difference. This is the one and a half degrees. This one degree here, two and a half degrees difference. Now the shim that we have, the stock ones that you can download and get is the that's a positive shim, and that is a negative shim. Now the reason for the naming convention on that, which here's the biggest confusion is because a lot of companies use something different on that now to get more front foot pressure, if you are heavier and you need a bit you want this rear wing to be more active, you need to angle it down a bit more. That makes it do its job a little bit more so that if you add a degree of angle down this rear, Wing's now on two and a half degrees. So you've got one plus two and a half. You've got three. So I describe that as positive shimming. Because it's in addition to what the original one was three and a half, you mean? Yeah, three and a half, three and a half.  With the if you flatten it off, if you're lightweight or can cope with a flatter angle on the rear the wing, the foyer will run faster. But it'll be a bit more twitchy and a bit harder to balance unless you're smaller and then it'll be perfectly comfortable for you. So if you reduce the angle of that rear, you've got one degree at the front, let's say you've reduced this one degree at the back. This is only now half a degree. So you've got a difference of one and a half degrees. So I call that a negative shin because the number is smaller than the stock. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Much easier if you can talk about it in those terms, because the moment everyone talks to each other and says, oh yep. I've done negative Shing. Is that negative? Or is it not negative? No, there's no established terminology as to why it would be negative or positive. I've seen some videos of some guys trying to explain it and I've sat through the whole thing. And at the end of it, I had no idea what they're talking about.  how's the customer supposed to actually look at? I like how you, yeah. I like how you explain it as a difference between the front and the back. Do you have anybody that's shimming the front angle, the wing the angle of the front wing at all, or not really not re not really. You can on an axis wing, you could actually put a packer in here. Yeah. And we have done that. And so the wing has got more angle of attack at the front. Yeah. But all that's gonna do is like I said before this wing finds its own way. So what are you really adjusting is the angle of the fuselage, right? This is unchanged. Yeah. Yeah. No, makes sense. Yeah. Cause but basically you want the fuselage to be flying more or less parallel to the to the water surface. You don't want that to be dragging either direction. Yeah. Yeah. That's the end. But in with that in mind as when you take off, when you first take off, you actually have a slightly more angle of attack and then as you go faster and faster, you flatten that off. So the angle of the fuselage is it's not absolutely always gonna be parallel to the water, but we said, so that when you're at your average sort of speed, it's generally going dead, flat parallel to the water. Load dry. Makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Adrian, I'm gonna, I'm going since we're talking about equipment and stuff, I'm gonna get into some questions here. I got these questions from guys in New Zealand from Dan, our distributor, like he collected some questions for you from his friends. So the first question was regarding weight that, saying the access gear is heavy compared to other foils, any thoughts on developing a lighter high modus, mass and carbon fuselage? And what effect does weight really have? When under the water. So can you talk a bit about the effect of the weight? Yep. As far as I I wouldn't say axis is heavy. I would say it's actually, like I said before, the stiffness of the mask, like the stiffness of everything, like the front wing, the way it joins to here is really important. That joint is really important.  The joint from the fuselage to the ma is critical. The stiffness of the mask is critical and the stiffness of the whole thing, if you've got wobble or play or anything, you, you lack control of that front wing, you are only riding that front wing. That's basically what you're writing. So anything that compromises that attachment to the front wing is not gonna make writing better. It's gonna make it more difficult cuz it's wobbling round and not connected to you. I actually think. Access is a realistic weight. And I think that some of the ones that you might be comparing it to the mask is not sufficiently stable. The joints are not sufficiently stable and if you were selecting foils and you would looking at the important things. The weight might be questioned number 234. And by the time you get to that question, everything else is eliminated anyway. So I don't agree. That is a heavy setup. I think some of the other ones are actually too soft altogether. Yeah. And I would agree with that. That's in my opinion, like the act like the, yeah, the rigidity comes first and then the weight is in my opinion, like a secondary concern after rigidity and also the foil, because the foil is underwater. And the, has the, basically a lower center of gravity than the board and everything above the water. It I think the weight on the foil seems to matter less than the weight of what's above the water. And I've, I've had an, a prototype early on that was CNC CNC out of a solid block of G 10 fiberglass. And the front wing was like a, a heavy, beginner wing. And it was super heavy. And I thought it'd be impossible to use because it's so heavy, it was really heavy to carry to the water and stuff like that. But then in the water, it felt really solid. Like it had a very basically a low center of gravity. It's like a keel. And even when I was flying it, it felt very very stable. So the, I guess the weight is not in, in a foiler and the fus slides is not always a bad thing. I would say. We've used G 10 to prototype quite a few of our rear wings. And it's, it's good for testing out. It's not, ideally it's not really stiff enough. And as the wings become more high aspect, like the, that 7 99 that I had there before something that's long and skinny like that you build that in G 10, it's gonna be too floppy to even use. It's just not gonna be stiff enough. Yeah the rigidity is really important. I, one of my favorite wings that I'm writing at the moment, it's I think it's a 1100 span. And it's got a mean average cord of about 89. So it's, and it's quite thin. But we built it in several different constructions. And one of the constructions, just as a test, we built it out of solid carbon all the way through the wing itself is about two and a half kilograms. You give it to people and it's just, you just about drop it. It's really heavy. Ride's fine. I can't even feel any difference to it. I don't think weight is as important as a lot of people think. I do think there is a change to that, and that is if you are riding with your foil in the water. So if you're toe foiling, if you are surfing, if you are winging, most of the things like if the foil is in the water, most of the time, no problem at all. But if you're doing freestyle, if you're doing jumps and spins and tricks, having a lighter weight mast and foil so that you can do your freestyle stuff, that would for sure be better, but yeah. Also rotations and things. It's a massive compromise. It's a massive compromise for when you're falling along on a straight line, because you just lost that connection for. Yeah. Agreed. So then the next question was regarding foil design, are we fast approaching a point of peak performance for foils where we can't get much better and where to go from there? No. I think we're just getting started. That's the fun part. Yeah. I agree. I think there's still so much R and D to do and things. It seems every time something new comes out, it's like a big jump forward. I don't think we'll that we're anywhere close to being at the point of peak performance. I should poke that in there at this time. Yes. That's the new mass. So yeah we talked about this earlier, but you said you're just getting ready to release this. And I guess by the time I'm posting the interview, this is gonna be available, right. Yep. It's actually we're doing the release, but we don't necessarily have stock ready to send out. We were trying, we normally, when we do a release, we actually have stock built and it's already to go. But in this case here, it's, taking time to build a decent amount of stock and there's too many people have seen this mask already. And they're asking questions and we can't really answer questions because, it's not officially released. So we've had to just say let's do it. This is a seven 50 version of the axis power carbon mask. Now the power carbon ma comes in a high modules and it comes in a standard modules. Construction. Our previous carbon masks that we've done, they, they were not as stiff as our 19 mill menu mast. But they were thinner like a 19 millimeter. Mast is an extrusion. So it's 19 mills top to bottom. So that means you're pushing 19 mills through the water, perfectly fine for a learner for SAP, for a lot of things. It's absolutely fine for dock start pump where the rigidity of the ma is really important, fantastic mask for that. But with the advent of more high aspect wings and running faster it, 19 mills is just too thick. The new power carbon mask, the bottom section of the ma here, where it goes into the fuselage, the bottom 300 mils is about 15 mils thick, and then it gets thicker and thicker and a hundred mils down. It's still 20 mils thick. When you  Like when you design anything on computer, you can use finite element analysis and you can actually bend that mast and see where the stress in it is. And when you bend it, all of the stress is concentrated around this area here on a mast. And you know that from all of the masks that have, failed in the shop, they always kink at the base plate or break there. So one of the most important things, if you wanna try to build a decent mask is that it's one piece, the fibers from here run all the way down and right through and into the base plate. Any sort of a join in here to me seems like way too much of a compromise. This is the most important part of building a stiff mask. Back to the stiffness of this ma like the two versions the standard carbon one is 25% stiffer than the 19 aluminum. And the high medulous is 35% stiff. Now that's a massive amount. And the first time I rode this ma I was using the 1 0 9, 9 wing. So sorry to interrupt you. But in terms of that, the, how do you measure the stiffness? Is it like torsional stiffness or side bending or like how do you define that? What I do is I bolt that ma to a wall and then at this end here, I hang 25 kilograms off these two bolts, and I measure the deflection at the sharp edge of the back of the mast. So it's the sideways bending, yeah, sideways bending, but what about the torsional stiffness cuz that's really important as well, right? The twisting. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's one way of bending. So I isolate the both. So that purely then is only bending testing for sideways bend. Yes. The other bend we do is we put a fuselage on there. We use a a standard fuselage because it's got the longest tail section on it. And I put a pivot point here to the ground, to a concrete floor so that the mask can no longer be in sideways at all. And then off the rear. Screw. I hang 25 kilograms and I measure the deflection of the fuselage at the end. So that's measuring the twist force of the mask only. Okay. Poor little mask with 25 kg hanging off the back of the fuselage. It gets quite a twist in it. Yeah. And so that extra 25 or 35% stiffer, is that the case in both directions or cuz I know depending on how you lay up the carbon inside the carbon layer, the direction of the carbon makes a big difference on the, that torsional those stiffness, for sure. You can do it a lot with that. But the truth is to get a master stiff as the 19 mil aluminum ma it would need to be 19 mil stick all the way through. And you can't do that because of the, this is 15 mil, so it's lower drag down here. The torsional rigidity is about the same as the aluminum ma, but the sideways bend is a lot more. Okay. Yeah. And yeah. When you write it the first ride I ever had on the high ulus mask, when we finally built one I was on the 1 0 9 9 and the mask was 900 length. The other thing is the length obviously is a big change. So if you're comparing the bend from one mass to another, you have to compare a seven 50 to a seven 50 or a, an eight 20 to an eight 20, or a 900 to a 900, as it gets longer, the movement at the end is gonna be longer just nature of how it is. My first go was on a 1 0 9, 9 front wing a 900 power carbon, high modules. And it was the first time ever that I'd felt that connection to the front wing. I felt totally connected so I could carve and do whatever. You're talking about weight before this mask is not really any lighter than the 19 mil aluminum with a base plate and a do that in it. But the stiffness in the field, the connection is just through the roof and it there's quite a big price difference too. They is, it cost by like almost 10 times as much as a aluminum mass. That's expensive. Yeah. Yeah. And so one thing I wanted to mention for that, those of you who are interested in getting a stiffer mass, is that what really makes a difference too is like you said, the length of the mass, obviously if you have a longer mass, you need, it needs to be stiffer, basically. So if you're lightweight using a narrow WK span, smaller foil, Or yeah, or, and, or a shorter mass, you can get away with using a more flexible mask. And also in the surf, sometimes having a little bit of flex, you get used to it, but if you're heavier rider, if you're going fast and using a wider WPA, a bigger wingspan foil and you're yeah. And you're going faster than in all those situations, I think that you really notice the mass flex, like it really affects the performance, even when you're doing down winters and just taking off with a big foil. If there's some mass flex, the whole setup feels very unstable and bouncy, you're always gonna have mass flex that's just the nature of it. You've got, 900 mil away from your board. You've got a big foil. It's a long dangly thing. There's gonna be some movement. It's never I don't think you can get too stiff. With that in mind, we had a team rider in Australia and he's light, he's about 70 kg and he pumps for an hour, from wave to wave connecting. And I sent him an eight 20 that's the lengthy rides of the. High mods and the normal medulous carbon. And he rode both and he was amazed, at how stiff the normal carbon was. But after writing both, he said, why wouldn't you have the extra stiffness, the stiffness it's more expensive. And I think it's better. But like you said, if you are. A lighter weight person, if you're riding a smaller foil and a shorter mast, you'd probably, the other one's fine. But the high ulus is the stiffest good point about the stiffness? I think it's yeah. And for most people's stiffer is just gonna work better and I want to apologize, my camera's going crazy up here. I don't know what's wrong with it. Check the settings, but I can't really do it right now, but anyways so another question here is what is now considered the fastest foil combo, in the fo in your range and what is the recommended access track positioning set up on a new boot planet? Wingmaster fusing straps. I don't, that's something I can answer, but I guess you can answer the first part about the fastest foil combo. I guess the fastest at the moment would be the 7 99. And paired with either a a three 80 or a the high aspect three 80 rear or the like a 3, 2, 5 or a 300 rear would be considered the fastest setup we've got at the moment. I guess the a R T range. What we've tried to do with that is make something that's really GLI and easy to use and fun to use. It was never intended to be the fastest wing in the world. It actually goes pretty fast, but the GLI is perhaps the most amazing thing with it. We are working a lot on more race stuff now for for down winding and we will have stuff we're doing a lot of stuff with James Casey, cuz he wants to, have race gear for down winding. I should say while we're talking about that ma there like when we came out with that stiffer mast, loved it, amazing, huge difference, massive leap forward. But we also noticed that all of a sudden, we could feel flex in the front wing, the narrow high spec front wings. We could feel differences in that. You could never feel that with a soft Damas because everything was just moving. But now with a stiffer mask, you can isolate that. So we've actually gone back and analyzed the flex and the wings and done all sorts of different constructions in the front wings to to stiffen them up and change the way that is. And so construction is becoming far more, an important part of wing building. If you think back to the early days with the nine 20 with a massive cord and huge thick wing, The thing didn't flex much anyway, if at all. But some of the wings now, like there's a prototype I've been writing at the moment it's 1200 wide and it's got a mean average cord of 87. It's 13.4 aspect ratio and it, wow. To get that to hold together is quite some trick. And again, a wing like that, there's just no way you could have used it on the old mast or even the aluminum cuz it runs too fast for that. This new mast for me is a huge breakthrough and it means that we can actually advance all sorts of things from here. Okay. Like you also have that high performance speed range, but you're saying actually the a R T range or the a R T 7 99 is actually faster than the the high performance speed range. It has less cord it, it came before the its higher aspect. Yeah. Yeah, I describe any, when I describe any wing at all my, my way of analyzing it too is a bit different to a lot of other wings. So the first thing I look at is the span, how wide is the wing? The next thing I look at is the mean average cord, the mean average cord is the different distance from the back of the wing to the front of the wing. The mean average cord is what's the average of the whole entire wing. And then I look at the foil section that's been used inside to, to create that foil. And every foil section has a certain amount of Canberra in it. Canberra is the amount, it's a line that's halfway between the there's the top of the wing. There's the bottom of the wing. There's a line that's midway halfway in between that's the CAMBA line and that's curved upwards. And if you compare that to a dead straight line, the cord line you look at it as a percentage. So every foil has a certain amount of camber. And generally it's between, one or two up to 4% or four and a half percent camber the higher, the camber, the higher lift at lower speeds generally. And the flatter, the caner, the faster, the. Goes that wing. You've got there. That's the a, I T they're all a a two and half percent can in them. And it's relatively low drag. And what I like about this, the whole RT range is the glide. It just keeps on running and it's easy to use. I like the glide. They are pretty fast because they've got quite a narrow cord. But if you want to go faster than that, you need a faster foil section and with a FA faster foil section, you also get other compromises in the performance. They're harder to get going. That don't work necessarily through such a wide range. So you become wings that are very specific for certain tasks. The HPS, the BSC HPS, and a R T they're all a fairly general purpose foil section, which I would say is easy to use, relatively fast for what they are and fun and easy to drive to go beyond that, to really fast stuff is gonna take different portal sections and they won't be so user friendly. Yeah. So I want to share a little bit my own experience. I was using for a long time using this one here that BSC seven 40, and this is a really nice wing. I really enjoy this for surfing it's like a nice all round kind of wing that carve well and so on. And then you recommended that I try this one here, the a R T 8 99, and it has a bigger wing span. So it's wider. Move back a little bit, but it also but it has actually about the same surface area, I think, pretty close to the same surface area and what I noticed that yeah, it has amazing glide. Like it it just keeps keeps going once you it just has less drag, less it's more efficient. So when you're coming or going through attack or something like that, it just keeps going a little bit longer. Like it, it just flies, it just keeps going, running less drag,   I'm also using the smaller tailing and then the short. This is the 3 23 25 tailing. Yep. And then the ultra short fuselage. And I've only used this a couple times. So the first time I used it I also was using a shorter mass. So kind of everything, a little bit different. And the, first time I had to definitely get used to the different feel of it. But now I noticed I can get it going in about the same amount of wind. It seems like it needs slightly little bit tiny, little bit more wind to get going than this one. This one has really nice, low end. Like you can fly really slow and also take off pretty easily for considering how small it is. But yeah, once you're going, it feels very efficient. You can go upwind. I can go upwind, I think at a steeper angle. And so on. And then, yeah, compared I also have this one here, the 700 that this one is the I guess that, is that the high speed or whatever it's called HPS. Yep. HPS. Yeah, the 700. So this one has I think a thinner profile it's a really fast foil, but. It takes also takes more speed to get it going. And it stalls a little bit sooner than, also because it's a small foil. So this one I, I found for winging, it's only really good and really high wind. When you have enough, plenty of wind to get it going. Yeah, you, this one, I think, is gonna be a good wing for me in any kinda conditions, not just strong win. I kinda, I'm kind the kind person that once I find something I like, I'm not. Changed it around a lot, just gonna get used to it. And then unless I have someone like you telling me to try something new I don't really, I just kind different. And every that's the beauty of avoiding is you find what set up works for you. And everyone's got a slightly different idea of what they want to do. I hardly ever ride that 8 99 cuz for me, I like BLI. I like to drop my wing and just coast along surfing, near invisible swell. So I need a bigger span for that. So I ride generally wings that are a thousand or 1100 span. But probably no more cord than that one. The span, the wider, the span, the more glide the bigger, the cord, the more hand. That's on. If you cut the cord down, it just cuts the drag and it just keeps on rolling. And that that lower drag you'll find on that 8 99, you'll sail through a gas and you're in a lull and the thing will just keep running. It won't actually stop. Whereas if you're on your older thicker bigger, a  bigger cord foil, there's more drag on it. And it wants to run down and slow down. Whereas that one, there just, it just keeps on going. There isn't much drag. So that's why they're so good for down winding as well, because they just don't once you're up, they don't slide slow down, little bit tricky to get up. And you would've felt that the first time you had a go of it, you can't really use angle of. To actually get up. You need to almost, when you feel a lift coming, you almost need to hold it down and just do two much bumps to get up to speed, and then it just comes up and you're away. Yeah. If you pop it up too early, it just wants to stall or we install it up down. Yeah, exactly. But that's pretty much normal with a high, little bit more high aspect flow. I noticed the other thing I wanted to mention is I switched from the black series, short fuselage to the advanced fuselage ultra short. And I noticed right away that holding them up against each other. If you match the same mass, the mass in the same place, it's quite a bit longer in the front. Like this is the short versus the ultra short or yeah. And then in the back it's about the same difference in the back as in the front. So the diff it's. It's shorter in the front and the back by almost the same diff same amount. It is exactly the same. So the ultra short is exactly the same length fus overall, but the, so are they both ultra short? No, no one is short and one is ultra short, but I noticed, yeah. The, yeah, so there, so the advance is a new one that we've just come out with and basically what it is like the ultra short is the same. This is a good, this is a good chance to explain something here. So when we first started  when we first started building four, this is back in the nine 20, the original first wing we ever did. We we actually put the mast directly on top of the front wing. And our theory was that from an engineering point of view, that was the strongest point to attach it. And we went and forwarded it. It forwarded fine. But it didn't steer, like you'd try and turn and you'd just fall off the side. It didn't actually turn. And we thought perhaps the wing had too much turned down on the tips. So we started making some new tips for it. And the rearing was also doing some crazy stuff as well. So we started experimenting with the rearing to try and change that. And in as, as well as that, we also built a fuselage with the mask further in a more sort of standard position in the fuselage and straight away we found that's it actually worked fine. After that, we actually built a whole series of fuselage with the mast in different positions. Further forward and further back, the further back you have it, obviously the more challeng it is to the mast, torsionally it actually tries to twist the mask more. You can imagine if you had to fuselage at the rear wing you'd have no control over your front wing. There'd be just too much flex and movement. So we found a spot that was a sweet spot and it worked pretty well. And since then from the thickest point of the front wing to the mast has remained the same distance. We've done everything that we've designed has been the same. Whether it's a red fuselage or a black fuselage, whatever wing, the thickest point is about the same distance from the mast. And we've just run with that and that's worked pretty good. But a while back, we thought it's probably with the super high aspect wings we're doing as the cord gets narrow and narrow the distance between the ma and the front wing starts to look quite great. So we thought it was a good time to revisit that. And so we built a bunch of black fuselage and we did them with again with a master all various positions. So the advanced fuselage is 40 mil further forward. So when you use it, you have to move the base plate 40 mils further forward as well, so that the wings are in the same place. When you're foiling your front wing, your sorry, your front foot and your back foot is balanced over your front wing. Yeah. So that's exactly what I just wanted to mention, cuz that was part of the question too. Like when I was using the BSC with the short fuselage the mat, the basically the wing is a little bit more forward. So I had to move the plate pretty much all the way back. You can see the marking like from the rubber on the board, but this was the back of my plate Mount. And then with the ultra short, there's like maybe like a difference where the foil is slightly further back. So I had to move everything up by, about that same close to that same amount. That fuselage is shorter in the front, basically. Ah, for me, that's what kind of how it worked out. The advanced Fu lies definitely needs moving forward, but it is slightly complicated and that is the, a RT also because it's such a straight across wing. If you consider the BSC the thickest point of the front wing actually has some curvature as it goes out. Your average lift, if you like for that front wing is slightly further back with thet. They're relatively straight across cause the pips are quite far forward. And that means that when you go from, if without changing the fusel loads, take the fuselage change outta the equation. When you change from the BSC to the a I T the a, I T probably needs to go back about 20, 30 mil in the box to get the center of lift in about the same position. But then, so I guess it's a combination of the fuselage being being closer or like the fuselage being shorter between the mass and the front. And also the, I guess the thickest part of the foil is a little bit further back on this wing than on this one. It's a little bit further forward, right? Is that what you're saying? The thickest point's sort of, not that different in those two wings, the thickness is very different and there's a lot of other things that are different, but the percentage point of the thickest point is about the same in those two foils. Okay. I should explain more about that. So that, that what I, yeah, what I'm saying is cause the cord is smaller. So then if you look at the thickest point, like you said, it's about a third back or whatever. So it's about here versus the, if you have a wing that has a thicker wider cord than that center of the thickest part of the foil is a little bit further back, right? Wouldn't no. So that the thickest the thickest point of the BSC. The thickest point of that front wing is about the same as the thickest point of the a R T. Okay. They're about the same, but obviously, because it's got bigger cord, the front of the wing goes further forward. The back of the w goes further back, but the thickest point we've always done about the same. That's how we've done it. We've set them all up with the thickest point of the wing about the same from when to wing, but the fuselage you were mentioning there, that's an advanced fuselage compared to a normal one. So the normal ones here, the advance is 40 mils further forward, and simply what they done. And another difference too, is that it has thicker sidewalls, right? Like I it's a little bit more beefy, right? That's they're about the same. I'm trying to look at them there. There's not a lot of difference in it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I thought it looked a little bit thicker. Like the sidewalls were a little bit more beefed up. I thought it's about the same design, but it's just further forward. So the position of that mask, so you're writing your front wing and your feet are balanced around that front wing. So when you go for an advanced fus, large, you move the base plate 40 miles further forward. So your wings are in the same place and your feet are in the same place nothing's changed. But the only thing that's changed is the position of the mast for forward and backwards. Relative to everything. Now that mast is a bit like your fin position in a surfboard. If you move AFIN forward in a surfboard, it makes it looser. If you move it further back, it makes it more stable. And at a faster speed . So the position of that ma is it affects the way it rides. So the advanced fuselage moving the mask 40 mil further forward, hence the name advance. The reason for that is for a more surfing situation. So if you're riding prone or ORs, or even if you're winging, but you are primarily trying to ride waves, the advanced fuselage is a, it does the job better and feels a lot better for that. There's some negative effects for it as well. Our normal fuse with the mass further back is a lot more stable at winging speeds. When you're going faster. Also when you're trying to go up wind you can drive against that mast and it goes up wind a lot better on our standard fuselage. So for most people, probably the standard fuselage is just perfect and there's no need to change anything. The advance is more for people that are dedicated, trying to surf and in a surfing situation. It seems to go from, we say rail to rail, you've got your wing in the water. So it goes from side to side in a smoother way, you don't get a power spike with a mass further back, you tend to turn and then it gets a bit of a power spike. The same with you turn, when you go the other way with a mask further forward, it just seems to smooth it out. And it feels more like a surfboard turning. Yeah. So one thing I was surprised by with the the a R T range was that it, it feels really actually pretty easy to carve from rail to rail. As compared to other high aspect flow that I've tried that have more of a stiffer feel. So how did you achieve that? So if we grab that it's pretty hard to try and show it in there. This is an a R T 7 99. So as this wing goes out, the tip is actually twisted off this way. Okay. It's lifted up. And the idea of that is that it's supposed to give the wing more range. I told you before that you are, you have your angle of attack that you're riding on. And as you go faster, that gets lower and lower, that gets flatter and flatter. If you think of that tip, which is lifted up, as you get flatter, the tip might actually be pointing downwards and creating negative lift. And with that in mind, the very last fall section and the tip of that wings actually symmetrical fo section. So it's neither lifting, it's just a foil section, a parallel foil section. So we put that in there really just to give the foil more range, which it does do, but a weird side effect of that is when you tip it over to turn, the blade is twisted like a helicopter blade or a, a propel blade. And it just pivots around that. And some of these wings, they're very straight across and it's not what you'd imagine a surfing wing should look like. But they surf unreal. They turn really good.  And some of our prototype stuff, we've taken that to even more of an extreme. And, you historically, we always thought that you needed sweep in the outline of the wing to make it surf, but I don't believe that. So some of the wings that I've had that are just the straightest ugliest straight across wings ever ridden if you can get the twist right in it, you tip them over and they just turn beautifully. Interesting. Okay. So a little bit of a twist in the wing and change, and basically, so they have a different profile in the center versus the tip is symmetrical and the center is more. It's the same foil section all the way out. Yeah. But just the very last foil section that we've put in thet is a symmetrical foil section. I see. We should talk about the tip of that. W too, like people say, why isn't that to a point with a wing that with the Reynolds number of water, as you get to a smaller point the if it came out really skinny here, there's a bit where it just becomes drag. It's not actually doing any beneficial lift or anything. So we thought just to chop it off and it, what it does is it makes the wing more E. So this is a 7 99 wing. It actually behaves like a slightly wider wing. It's almost got that Phantom tip on there, still this but you don't have the drag of that. Yeah. It's interesting. It's also better if you hit the bottom  yeah, it's better if you stick it into yourself, it's not quite so gnarly. That's true too. Yeah. Okay. Here I have another question. Can us older 55 year old guys go as fast as the young guns for that one? I would say watched last, the last interview with Alan Cade on Mau he's yeah, he's 60 and he just beat everyone in the race, including yeah. Guys like Kilen and stuff. So definitely you can still go fast at any age, I would say. Yep. And then can the HPS wing be pushed as hard? Go as fast as a R T wings, if they are similar sides. Not really, they have more cord, so they're never gonna go fast as an a R T I think I describe wings a little bit differently. Like I'd ID, I'd primarily look at the span. That's the most important thing to me. And then I said after that, the mean average cord, and then I'd analyze the foil section that was used, how much can it's got. And then after that I might go to the color of the. Whether it's blue or red or black or carbon or whatever. And then after that, I might consider area. So I guess what I'm saying is area is something that I just don't even take any notice of whatsoever. I might look at volume before I look at area. A lot of wings are described by area, which, is a bit of a nonsense to me. The span is the most important thing. And as, as kind of proof of that the BSC eight 90 and the nine 80, sorry, the nine trying to think of three wings that are about the same span in our range. They all get going at about the same speed, but the narrow. It just goes faster. It's got less drag and it runs faster, slightly different trick to get it up and going. But it's really a trick rather than one doesn't go on lighter winds. You can still get them the high aspect wings up that you just have to have a slightly different technique to get them up. Yeah. I've noticed that too. Okay. Span, span. Span is the most important number. And if you're comparing wings span, and then mean average cord, and that tells you more than anything, about a wing. Okay. Actually you have follow up question would be, so what's coming next. You said you were working on pro new prototypes where you are working on that twist and are they even more high aspect than the a R T range or. Yeah we've done a lot of different stuff and we've got some stuff that's, good genuine advances at the moment. We still feel like we're making big gains. So we're just keeping on going with it. What about building flex into the wing tips of the front wing? Cuz you were saying that, we established that probably in a mass. You want it to be as rigid as possible and the kind

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to season two of the Blue Planet Show.  On this show, I interview wing foil enthusiasts, athletes, designers, thought leaders, and go into great detail on technique, equipment, but also tried to find out a little bit more about the person, what inspires them, and how they live their best life. You can watch it right here on YouTube. For those of you who are visual learners like myself, that's really helpful to have that visual content. But of course you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app. Just look for the blue planet show. In this interview with Alan Cadiz is we start with very basic beginner tips, the top five tips for beginners, and then we get into a much more advanced stuff as well. So there's something here for everybody. And we also talk about equipment, including what Alan used in the recent wing foil race on Maui that he actually won against other wingers that were less than a third of his age. So a nice work Alan, on that. I really hope you enjoy this interview. If you do, please remember to give it a thumbs up here on YouTube and subscribe to the blueplanetsurf YouTube channel. And without further ado here is Alan Cadiz: Allen, welcome to the Blue Planet Show! Actually, welcome back to the blue planet show. Thank you for inviting me back. Yeah, so we, we had a great interview last year and there was one of them actually, it was the most popular video on the Bhutanese show with almost 40,000 views on YouTube and then a lot of listens on the podcast as well. You always have great information. People love to hear about it. So that's great to have you back on the show and just wanted to catch up and see what happened over the last year. So what's new or what's the latest and greatest that's going on Maui? It's during the last year, it's just been more, more winging. We've had consistent wind all year on winging is growing in popularity on, it's still been quiet, with COVID winding down. It's not as many people as in the past, but we just had our first competitive event in three years. And what else is new? That's cool. Yeah. We're going to get into that more later that definitely hear about that Patagonia, kite and wing festival, but to get started like last year, I'm usually asked all the more advanced questions first that I was interested in. Hearing about, and then at the end I asked the guests to talk a little bit about beginner tips, but I want to turn it around the other way, start with the beginner stuff and then work up to more advanced things. Cause I figured that most people that are really into winging are gonna watch till the end or listened to the end and the beginners, we got to get them into it right in the beginning. So I asked you to come up with your top five tips for beginners to get into wink foiling. And you not only prepared some answers, but you've made a little video from what I understand. So let's start with that. What are your top five tips for beginners? All right. Thank you. Yeah. So I was thinking about those tips and there's so many different things. But I've tried to think about the key things and I put together a little timeline video here. Tip number one. And I just pulled these clips out of my inventory of clips and start on a big board. Now this is a winter Ford. We have a surplus of wind surfboards here on Maui on you can, you might think a sup board would be a good substitute, but you really need the daggerboard unless you can put strap-on fins on your support. I don't recommend using the support. It really needs to have something with the daggerboard now. And I recommend this for people who are just learning, how to use the wing, just to learn the basics on you can learn on a set board a foil board, but I recommend a large foil board to start with. Here, I've got Frank my, my pay here. He's a very skilled. And using a smaller board. It's challenging. So as a beginner, if you're on a smaller board, it's pretty tough to get going. And, in the extreme case, a really small board, it has its advantages, but it's tough to get up on the smaller boards and this is goes through the whole spectrum. So as a beginner, you really want to have a floaty board is just more challenging to get up. There are advantages to the tiny board once you're up. But in the learning stages, you really want to have a floating board. Yeah, I totally agree with that. So that's tip number one. So not everyone has access to the big boards on and. It doesn't because the learning curve is so fast. It doesn't always make sense to buy a big board. Maybe for some, they've got a big family or they've got a slow learning curve or they're sailing in light wind, but if they have the option to rent on, I would encourage that for the first, a few runs on a mistake that a lot of people make is they'll run out and buy the board that they think they're going to end up on, maybe an 80, 80 liter board. And it's a real struggle to learn on those smaller boards. You can do it, but it just takes a lot longer. So if you have access to a bigger board take advantage of. Yeah, very good. And then I just wanted to mention too, for people that have an old standard board or something, a big floaty signup board, there is a kind of a stick-on center thin daggerboard available from Slingshot. I believe that you can basically glue onto the bottom of your board and make if your board doesn't have a dagger board. And that makes a big difference because it keeps the board from this going downwind. If you only have the fins on the tail, the boards is going to turn down when, and it's going to be very hard to stay cross winds. I've seen people show up at the beach with the sup board and have that problem where they just go straight down wind. So yeah, that's basically I as tip number one, before you try this foil, learn the wing handling with a regular board that doesn't have a foil on it, basically. Yes. And if you don't have access to that, you can, learn on a foil board, but really get your hands on the biggest foil board you can get. Yeah. And I, I don't know if this is another tip you had to, but I'm also practice as much as you can on the beach before you get it on the water. The wing handling a lot of it. You can practice on the beach before, before you're in the water. Yes, I do have that. I think it's tip number four or five. Okay. So tip number two, you want to learn how to steer the board and turn around? Very close to the beach specifically, learn to turn around before you get out there on, so this is my daughter she's she has an interesting technique. She'll kneel down at the end of her run, do the turn on her knees. So she doesn't fall. And then stand back up. But the point is that you're turning around close to the beach. And when I say close, 20 feet out, get on the board and turn the board around 180 degrees to come back in. You don't want to get a hundred yards off shore and realize you can't turn around. Now I can keep going or I can keep going, or we can discuss that idea. Yeah. I think that's a really good tip. I guess a lot, I know I've heard of people, like they were so excited about getting up on foil and be able to go there. They just kept going as long as they could before they fell in. But then when they got way outside, like in Hawaii, Kai, for example you realize, oh, I don't know how to go the other way. Yeah. And why Kai is slightly off shore. If I remember. So maybe that's a tip in itself, you want to go in a place where it's side shore, if it's off shore wind, make sure you're sailing with a partner to keep an eye on you. Yeah. And then I'll also, it's a good idea to just if you have a place where you can just go down when, and maybe park your car at the other end, then don't have to worry about staying up when in the beginning. Yes. This next clip is all about staying up wind. And this is something that when I'm teaching my students, I try to focus on getting them to go up wind for a number of reasons. And the biggest reason is that you're not downwind. You don't have to walk back up or find transportation. You spend your time sailing back and forth instead of walking back up. So this next clip here is a little bit longer. It's actually a section of a video that I call maximum performance. This is the tip for beginners on turning the board up when, and this is one of my edited videos on, so I'll go ahead and play the whole thing. It's about two or three minutes, and then we can stop and talk about it. Okay. Great. One of the things I want to cover with quickly, this is more of at the novice level. And this is for almost the first time wingers. It's really easy to go down, wind and end up down wind very quickly. What I want you to try and do is turn the board into the wind. This does two things. One is it gets you going up wind. So you're not losing as much ground. And it slows the board. The struck is like a wind sock or a weather vane. It wants to point the wing into the wind. You can use this constant to leverage the board upwind or downwind by pointing the clue towards the back or front of the board. Respect. So we call the back of the struck clue or back end of the wing. And if I point that wing pointed down wind, it's going to point the board down wind. So I want to point the struck behind or in this case to my left, the more I aim it to the left I'm pulling here. The more it turns into the wind. If I push it away, it turns down with this is done while luffing the wing overhead and steering the board through your core. If you come from a windsurfing background, you'll recognize this as similar to wind surfing in that if you drag the clue towards the tail of the board will turn up. When you twist the wing toward the tail of the board, the wing wants to return to pointing into the wind and as it does it torques your body and board up wind. However, if you sheet in while pulling the clue back, the sheeting will overpower the steering effectively canceling the wings, torque to turn the board up wind, I'll say it again. Over sheeting cancels, the upwind effort, move your hands forward or sheet out as you twist the clue towards the back of the. You're going down when you need the sheet, it out, turn it up when, and then start simply stated left the wing. As you twist the wing to torque the board up wind. I actually really like how you explain what the weather vain and that, when you pull it the. The strike wants to point straight down downwind. And then if you manipulate that'll give you a steering momentum. So I've never really heard it explained that way, but it like intuitively we know how it works, but it's hard to explain it to someone who doesn't understand that concept. So I think that's a really good way to explain it. Thank you. I've been trying all different ideas, one way to think of the strep as a rudder or a guide. And you're aiming that guide to torque the board on a bunch of different ways to show it. And I even, I look at this and I'm like, oh, I might've might do that a little bit differently next time or try to explain it differently, which is I try to attack the idea from a different angle and try different ways. And on teaching this to my students early on, I couldn't understand why they were going down when, what was causing it to go down when, and even myself, I couldn't understand what was the technique to get it, to turn up, wind on until I started well, trying to solve the problems at night, going to bed at night, thinking that why were they having trouble? Why can't they do that? Yeah, I've been trying to capture it on video. Nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. I think we're ready for the next tip. Yeah. Okay. The next tip is more or less where you're standing on the board. So food placement on the board let's start with being off foil. So when you're slogging out to the wind line your front foot should be slightly on the Windward side and your back foot on the more or less on the stringer, as opposed to being this orientation. This is going to actually set you up to point further down. Or that is it's harder to go up wind in this position than this position. Now, the next thing to determine is where to stand on the board regarding the board's flotation. So you may be comfortable standing in the front, but if the nose of the board is curling, you need to move back. On the other hand, if the tail is sinking, you need to move forward. Again, this is off foil. And once you find that flotation point, you want to adjust your foil so that you stay in this position, as it comes up on foil, you can't be stepping forward as it transitions to on foil. So you want to have your feet in the spot when it foils. Okay. One thing that I've done in the past with some of my boards is I've marked on the board. Some lines just as a reference for. So I have an idea of where to stand before foils. Ideally you want to be comfortably on the flotation, but when it foils, you want to make sure that your foil is matched with that flotation point and having marks on the board, just give you a better idea of where to place your feet. Yeah, exactly. And if the D or does design well and you and your files in the right place, basically where you stand to float in the center of flotation, that should also be more or less where you want to stand once the board lifts up, right? Yes. Yes. You can put the foil too far forward in the track or too far back, or if you have a foil with a lot of lift in it on, you may have to adjust that, but. Yeah and then another good point you add it. And then in a different video with the was being centered over the center line of the board to cause you might be able to fly on when the boards on the water, if you're not exactly in the center, it's fine. But once the board lifts up and you're on foil, you have to be centered exactly over the foil the center line of the board. And that's the next clip here staying centered. I do have in this shot here, you think more of front and back where you're pressuring the nose down and you're kicking it up, but there's also the side to side. So that's this next clip here. Okay. We'll just play that whole thing. Okay. Some people are afraid to learn to foil for fear of falling on the foil, a legitimate concern. So let's look at what causes this type of. So let's look at the foil. It generates lift. The front wing is lifting up the back wing. The stabilizer is pushing down, but together there's force up through the mast lifting the board. Now it's important that you trim your weight for, and AFT. If it's too far in the front, you're going to stick to the water. If it's too far in the back, you're going to overflow. So you're constantly trimming the weight and a half, but it's also equally important to keep your center of mass directly over the foil. So the foil is lifting up. Gravity is pushing you down and if they're equal, you stay centered over the board. But often as a sailor, you have another force that the sail is pulling you laterally. So you need to compensate by leaning back against that pole. And when the. It's flat on the water. You have the stability of the ocean. So you can put lateral push on the side of the board, but as soon as it comes up on foil, you don't have that stability and any sideways push is going to cause it to in this case flip away and you fall towards the foil on your bum. And here's a couple examples, unlike windsurfing, where you're pointing your toes to keep the board flat in foiling, you're flexing your foot to keep your ankles at a right angle to the board, or that is your body. Mass is always over the top of the board. And the top means at a right angle. I have this drone footage, which really shows it, centered right over the top of the board, even though he's hiked out he's on. And then here, if you draw a line from the mast up through his center of mass, you can really see it here. So if you're not centered and I've got one more clip here of not being centered and you can see it right there. It's the beginning of the. Yeah, that's a really good point then. And I always like to tell people too, when they, before they try to wing and foil together, maybe just try to learn how to control the foil first. I guess even going behind a boat though is sometimes you got to pull from the rope, so you can lean against the rope. So you can be a little bit off centered on, on, on the floor away from the pool of the rope, if you're going sideways. But but just to have that feel where you can, where you're foiling on the board without getting pulled or without pressure, so that you understand that you have to be right over the center line of the foil and you can't be like offset, yeah. Trying to isolate just the foil skills. Th the foil is one way, but the foil is different. The board is pretty heavy, so it's not as responsive. As a regular foil board certainly the prawns surfers that come to wing foiling, they have the skill already going behind a boat on is good. But I have seen people that have learned behind a boat. And when they're out on the wing board, they're leaning back against the wing, trying to wheelie the board. And I'm like no, you can't leverage, you can't leverage the board like that with the wing, the way you can with the rope. But any foil time that you can get before you get on a wing is good. Yeah, I agree. So the next clip here is about wing handling. And that is we talked about it earlier about practicing on the beach and here's just a few things on. A few things you can practice on the beach, simple stuff like flipping the wing over. And this is a six meter when I'm trying to flip a six meter wing over in the water is pretty tough. So you can practice it on the beach. You can practice standing up, having the wing help you get to your feet. And the wingspan on a six meter, you have to go up to the wing tip to flip it over. So it looks easy and it's relatively easy on the beach. It's harder in the water, but that's something you can practice. And just practicing, like for tacking or jiving, just practicing the hand movements of flipping the wing over on, just leaning back against the wind and the wind. And this is something you have to do where there's a breeze. You can't do it in your backyard where the winds all squirt. You really need to have steady wind to get steady feedback, but this is worth doing, taking the time. And that there's in most of my instructional videos, I've got some kind of beach homework where you practice on the beach, whether it's the Heineken jibe or tacking or whatever. Yeah, no, that's really good advice. I think in a lot of times the beginners too, don't if you don't have a wig like a cutting or windsurfing or a sailing background just beginners have a hard time understanding exactly where the wind is coming from and how to angle your wing and relation to the wind and which way you want to go in and out, what's what direction can you go? And what does. You can't, you can't go straight into the wind obviously, and things like that, that's things people don't understand at first, I think, or don't think about really. So just learning that. And then also I like to get people to just keep the wing tip, kinda get the wink to blow to the sand, but without touching it, like controlling the height of the wing on the beach, and that, that's something that, that I'm in. I've got videos on that and all the clips here, this is just a fraction of the stuff that I have. And there's so much more there's so many more tips and these, I wouldn't call these the top five tips. These are just five tips in general on, and I also, the sport's still relatively young and we may look back in a few years and think, oh, we were teaching that progression where it's so much better to teach this progression. There's still so much we're learning about the sport. Yeah there's there's definitely the idea of sheeting and steering the wing on, I've taken a couple stabs at explaining that in one video, I have one video up there already on what I'm going to. I have another video where I'm trying to explain it more clearly to sailors or non sailors, and just the idea of sheeting in and out to catch the wind and spill it. That's relatively easy. But when you throw in the steering of the wing up and down in front of you, like you said, having the wing tip right on the sand and taking it above your head and separating those two skills it's a challenge to get people to understand that. It's really simple once you get it, but it's sometimes difficult. Yeah, you have to grasp that concept first and the I, and I like to even the more advanced maneuvers and all the different tax and things like that on your patron channel, you have like really detailed info videos breaking it down. Step-by-step into really easy to follow steps that very detailed and, I highly recommend that your instructional videos are great, and I think, those beginner tips are great, not just for the beginners, but also for more advanced guys. Cause you're going to have to show other help, other people that are learning and just understanding how to explain things like how to steer the board up into the wind. Th those are kinds of things. If you have a good way to explain it and to make it easy to understand that'll help a lot. Yes. Yeah, that's good. My following on Patrion has grown almost a 700 at the moment, or just over seven to 700 at the moment. And the range of skills on, there's beginners on there that are just trying to get up for the first time. And then there's advanced sailors that are asking for jumping and more advanced stuff. This recent video, the one you're looking at gliding on foil, that's more for entry-level. It's gliding is a skill that you take for granted, it's really easy to do once you know how to do it. But I had a number of students recently that I could see, they were relying on the wind for support and they didn't have the feel for gliding. Yeah okay. So yeah, I just find it too. I'm just, screen-sharing this now you're at your patron channel and yeah, it's 747 patrons. That's great. Congratulations on that. So it's actually I guess if you get enough people supporting you, then it's actually, you can actually make a living, being a virtual instructor, basically. Just making the instructional videos and teaching. Yeah, I so that, that seems like it really good business model for you, huh? I fell into it, with COVID when they shut down all the restaurants and airplanes and they closed the beach parks. That's when I started doing this and someone suggested I do a premium online video here on Patrion. And so I've been doing that for the last almost two years now. I think there's 20, 22 or 24 videos, instructional videos ranging from. The first time holding the wing to more advanced stuff like three sixties and Heineken jibes and that kind of stuff. Heineken jibes and the three sixties. That's probably the top 10% of wingers out there. I think the majority of wingers are working on basic stuff like this jibe here, that's George, one of our local sailors. This came to wild, demonstrating how to glide on the swell on. So this is a clip from the wave video on. So there's all different skill levels here and I've tried to try to address all of them. Yeah. I like how you explain how to I guess that's a challenging thing at first for people that are used to just always having the wing powered up and leaning against the wind. That to transition into not using the wing and deciding on the foil without using the wing wind power. So that's what you explaining it and just doing it kind of real step-by-step slowly getting used to this using the energy from the foil without having the wing pull you along. Yes. And if you come from a prone foiling background, you already know how to do this automatic. But for the prone boilers, I've got tips on how to use the wing. Yeah. That makes sense. And I think this is a really important skill for jiving because basically when you're going into the jive, you have to de power the wing and just surf a turn on, or, do a turn on the foil without using the wind power basically. Yes. That was the idea of it. So that angle right there that's, I got this new camera, actually it's not new, but I had to modify it for that board. Yeah. I just wanted to ask you about the the different handles. On the duotone wings, you have the rigid handles. And then some, you have some that have the longer boom handle, like this one, and then the new D-Lab unit that you're using has two, two separate handles. We'll look a little bit about the handles and yeah the advantages and disadvantages of having rigid handles and two handles versus one long handle and so on. Coming from a windsurf background, I've always liked the boom. And in fact that the first wings that my neighbor Ken was making all have booms. So we started with boom. I don't know if you remember the first echos on they had a boom and. The nice thing about the boom is it's infinite hand placement. You can put your hands anywhere along the boom. When you're flipping the wing over your head, it's really easy to feel where the boom is. You don't have to look where the handles are. You shouldn't be looking even if you have handles. And the boom is so much more rigid than the webbing handles. So in fact, most manufacturers now are switching to some kind of rigid handle. The handles I've gotten used to the handles, but initially when I went from the boom to the handles, I was grabbing in between the handles and missing and falling in. Now I can grab the boom or grab the handles pretty much every time without looking. I know where they are. Some of the bigger wings, the handles are a little further apart. So I've got to remember to reach further back on. That's one of the things you miss when you have the boom or the two handles. I noticed like when I come out of the jive, I like to grab the wing right in the middle with one hand so that it kind of flies. But it would be right between those two handles. So do you ever miss having that that grip in the right in the middle or you just get used to? I did get used to it. I did have that problem. I grabbed right in the middle and fall. So it, it took me a while to retrain my hands. I still prefer the boom over the handles, but these, this D-Lab wing is really superior. This cloth it's super stiff. So the wing is really tight and light. You can see there. It's just, it's really nice. So I'll tolerate the handles to use that wing. And so let's talk about that a little bit, so that new this is the Lula fabric on the new do a tongue D-Lab weighing, and then they also have the unit in with the regular Dacron leading edge and and strike. So can you talk a little bit about the difference between the two? And I know that there's a big difference in price, so I just wondering what you think they are the different between the difference between the two and if it's worth it for the average user to spend more, to get that well there, the wings are virtually the same shape slash design, just different cloth. So the yellow cloth, the Lula cloth makes it really stiff and light. So if you're into performance, the Alula is the way to go on the, I think the sizes are from up to seven. Or no two and a half to seven meter, but the Alula the D labs don't start until three five on, but you're really gonna appreciate the Alula cloth in the bigger sizes on, 5, 6, 7 meter that's in the light wind where you want that lightness and stiffness. Now, as far as the value on, money is different things to, it's a different thing for everybody. For some people money's not an issue, they can get whatever they want. I think as a novice Patty, my wife, her favorite wing is the SLS three, five unit on, I really liked the Fibo D-Lab I think that's what we're looking at here. Yeah, this is, I think this is the three, five, or the three meter SLS. This is one of her favorite wings, although she recently tried the D lab for, and she said, this is my new favorite wing, and this is my shit. She tried to claim my fluoro. I'll share it with you. That's interesting. Yeah, that you're saying that that yeah. Makes more of a difference than in a bigger wing on, in lighter wind, obviously. Yeah. Because if you have plenty of wind then I guess actually sometimes having a little bit of weight in the wind can actually be a good thing too, in some cases. It's not always the case that lighter is always better, but definitely in a big wing and light wind, it makes it, it can make a big difference, right? Yes. Yes. I'm not sure we're heavy is good, but that's true. But my thank you. You're gonna they're all good, but you're gonna appreciate the bigger sizes with the D lab and. As a novice sailor, you'll be fine with the SLS. I think you're going to pay a little extra for that performance in the Alula cloth. Okay, cool. Let's talk a little bit about that recent event you mentioned earlier, the Patagonia Caden, Wade Fest. You said that was just recently and there was a freestyle part of it and the race part of it. So let's talk a little bit about that event. I did a film, a little bit of the freestyle on, and I can try and share that here. I was the Patagonia Maui, kite and Wingfield festival was that canal beach park. And when I got my camera out, the battery was flashing almost dead. So I just filmed one year. This is Chris McDonald. He won the event with moves like this he's 16 years old from the Gorge. That's here's Kailani. He dropped in and he was doing moves. I'm not sure how he finished up. I think he made it to the final. I only filmed one heat. Just this Andre. He's a local ripper. He did pretty well. Wow. And I think also in this heat Otis Buckingham, no, that's Chris again. That's so you can see why he won the event there. Oh, so there was racing and unfortunately I don't have any video of the race stuff. But you told me earlier that you actually won the race event. So just tell us about it. I did I spent a lot of time training for it and I had some really good gear and one of the guys I sail with all the time, he says, when you're out there, I can see you're sailing with purpose. You're training for this. And I did. I worked really hard on it and I actually, I'm going to just show a little clip of the board that I used on. So I got this new board flying Dutchman. This is what that camera Mount I'll show you that. And then I posted this on Instagram clip coming up here. So this flying Dutchman is different from my previous board in that it's a little. Mark made it a little narrower. So I wouldn't drag the rail while I was going to Winward other dimensions, sorry. Or what are the dimensions? Is the board it's four foot 11 by 21 inches wide. And it's about 60 liters, 20 to 60 liters, 2021 wide 2121. Okay. Pretty narrow four foot 11 engine the board so that when I do touch down, there's more of a planning surface, the rails not digging in and on the back. There's no tail rocker, no tail kick, just a sharp edge. And this really helps to release the board from the water. Now it's also matched with a Mike's lab and I wasn't sure about the Tuttle box, but after trying it in this board, it's super solid. It's all one piece, no moving parts. There's no play whatsoever. It's just really tight. And then my result in the racing I finished, I actually won the racing event. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you. Then. You're probably not the youngest one in there by far. In fact, you could probably fit a whole generation in between me and the next place. When I went to the registration up in , it was at a. Mandatory. I went up there and I got in line and everyone in front of me was a teenager and I thought, oh man, what am I doing here? The older guys were in their twenties. Yeah. So one third year age. Yeah. Yeah. But I have to say that the Maui fleet and a wife who, they were a couple of people that came over from wahoo, both the men and women, young men and women, they're going to be a force. They've got some talent and, they were going plenty fast in the racing, but the start line and the tactics. That's where my experience came in. So tell us how that whole, how it worked at, what was the format like? How did this start work? W were, how were the terms and upwind, downwind, and so on. Tell us how that format works. They had a rabbit start that is that a jet ski raced across the start line and you'd pass behind the jet ski on and we'd race out. It was a close reach to a mark outside. And then from that mark, we had to go up wind to a Windward mark. So it, the way it was set up, it spread everyone out on and I had some good starts. And then the upwind leg, it was favored on the inside. It was a little bit north wind. So you'd get a good lift along the shoreline, which I knew from experience where most of the fleet went outside into deeper water where the wind was lighter and there was more current on there were. Some of the kids that Chris McDonald, he was very fast. He beat me to the Windward mark twice. But I was able to catch him on the downwind run. It was almost a straight downwind run to the finish line. So you had to zigzag your way to get down there. And Kai, I think he was able to pump downwind faster than with the wind, his pumping skills where most other sailors had to zigzag back and forth. And I was using a six meter. It was light wind by Maui standards on, I was using a six meter. So yeah, I feel pretty good about that when I think it's probably my last competition, I'm passing the Baton onto these younger people. That or I'm anxious to see where they take the sport. And I'm confident in the riders. We have so much window defending champion. You can't give up after the first time. No. I've yeah. I'm 60 years old Robert it's tough to compete 16. And I remember when I was doing wind surfing competition, when I was 20, I was looking to the guys that were 25 and I thought those guys have peaked. They've peaked at 25. And for sure, in, in windsurfing jumping freestyle, doing the leaps and having the flexibility, I think you do peak in your early twenties, more endurance style type of stuff on more in your thirties, in your sixties. I'm not sure. I think what I've earned is that shirt that says old guys rule. I think that's about. Experience too, right? You have, you got the experience and then, like you said, you train with the purpose and you're ready for it. So you're not just winging it, you're actually winging it. Yeah, yeah. No, it's awesome. I love that. You can still beat everyone, including the guys. I Lenny, that's pretty awesome. No, Chi is, I, he it was funny during the wave event, one of the announcers talked about Chi being a legend. And I thought he's, he is a legend, as far as his ability. There's no question there, but when I think of legend as an old, if he is a legend, what does that make me? Am I guess I'm a fossil, but no, Kai and all the younger kids, Chi's, he's so good at everything. And he hasn't really put effort into wing racing. And I think if he spends just, a very short period of time, he'll be on the top of his game. It seems like whatever he tries out, he succeeds, but there's a lot of other young talent on Maui. That, that is really good. And I, we have the amount of advantage in that we have wind almost every day you can wing. And with the waves came to wild is doing some turns in the waves that are really impressive and he's just getting started. So it's going to be really exciting to watch as this younger generation leads the way right. I'm stepping aside. And then I guess something, I was going to ask you to like, Yeah, generally two foot straps in the front and then not no foot strap in the back, which means basically you're not really jumped. You can't really use that set up to jump or not jump very high anyways. Yeah. Or do you most, do you just avoid jumping usually or do you actually do jumps with that sort of, I do not do jumps and early on, I made a pledge to myself that I would not take the sport to the air on. I had a back injury surfing, a compressed vertebrae, a wedge vertebrae, and my physical therapist says I can't afford another fall. So I don't trust myself. I'm looking at these guys do in the jumps, I've studied Chris McDonalds, flips and I'm like, I could do that. I know I could do. But no, I know better. The back there's no back foot strap because I do move my foot around a lot and it does keep me from jumping. I was just noticing in this picture, the leash, I have it attached to the foot strap because when I have it attached to the back of the board, it would flip and get in the way of the camera. Okay. So I want to show you my, and one of those retracting leashes that like, I should send you one of those, but yeah I noticed actually, why don't you keep that up for a little bit. I want to talk about the equipment a little bit. Yeah. I noticed you have the leash pug monster on the tail of the board, is that, so it's kinda more out of the way of your feet or less drag or what's the idea behind that? Putting it back there? Oh, sorry. Here. Rapid horse at flying Dutchman suggested I put it back there and it seems like a good spot. I noticed I do have a prom foil board that I use for surfing. And the Mount is, I don't know if you can see my mouse here, but the amount is right there. And I found as a regular foot surfer as I stand up, my foot would always drag over the leash and I'd end up standing on the leash cord. No, I'm not planning on doing any prone for them with this board, but it made sense on, there was one of the rider that had the same setup and he felt that the leash was dragging in the water. So I think for racing, especially to have a lease dragging in the water, it just totally doesn't make sense. Yeah. So anyway, but okay so yeah, the two front shots. That way you, the back foot if you just had one center strap you tend to have both feet a little bit off to one rail, right? So being able to offset your back foot more towards the opposite rail helps with keeping your weight center too. And that's one of the reasons why you don't use the back foot strap to ensure it? Yes, because I would stand on it. And I also found too that sometimes when I would do attack, as I switched my feet, I found myself stepping on the far side of the board to keep it from rolling over from scissoring. And the other reason as I did, I was using a back strap for awhile and I fell and tweaked my ankle. Didn't injured myself, but tweaked it enough that I thought I'm taking that strap off. And then, it also helps sometimes moving your back foot forward or backwards, depending on how fast you're going or trying to get up and light when and things like that. Right now. 50, wait a little bit on this board. I don't have the foot straps. Doesn't show the bootstraps here, but the foot straps I have, they're longer foot straps. They're not the standard eight inch they're about 12 or 14 inches on. I placed the inserts further apart so that I could slide my foot forward in when I was going real fast to compensate for the additional lift by the foil and then move it back when I was going to Winward or so I really liked the ability to be able to move my foot four and a half still in the strap. And I've taken some other videos. I've got a lot of different camera mounts. And in fact, let me pull up one of those camera mounts. Okay. But yeah, actually I did want to ask you about the foil as well. So I noticed you had that a few shots of the foil there too, but yeah, so don't turn off the grease screen sharing yet, but yeah, this particular clip here it doesn't really well, lot of times I'll do different camera angles and trying to capture one thing. And I realize, oh, this is a really good example of where the foot is, or I didn't realize the wing was this way. Or when I put the camera on the front of the board, it really shows my front foot, my toes curling up and down not so much in this video, but I didn't realize how much I was using the front strap to manipulate the board or leverage. Yeah. I find that, yeah, having footsteps just allows you to turn much harder to you just feel more connected to the board. So you get, you're able to like crank Carter turns that you have that those foot straps, right? Yes. And I did do some video recently, then the board didn't have foot straps and it was a performance oriented board, but I just didn't put the foot straps on there. And I found that I couldn't do the tax and the jibes as aggressively without the foot strap. So I do definitely pull with my front foot to pull the board around or leverage it this way or so, yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the foil, cause I think maybe the foil might be one of the most important parts of the equipment and like those Mike's labs foil, I know that like Johnny Heineken and San Francisco has been winning a lot of the races there with those foils too. And it just seems like he's going faster than everyone else. And so anyway, talk a little. Yeah. Mike has been making the carbon foils for the kite racers for quite a while. He's been making foils and more recently for, he's got a reputation of making the fastest foils, particularly in the kite race and fleet. Now I think he's winging himself and he's made foils for Wayne's specifically for winning. And this is one of them. It's the bullet series. I believe he makes an 1100 and 800 and a 600 and this is the 600. And let me see if I can get a little bit better angle of it on. So it's actually the smallest foil and is in this series. Yeah. Yes, he does have a smaller foil for kite racing, but it has a shorter fuselage and he's also got a tiny little race foil on, I think it's a four, 10 tow foil. And apparently I think one of the kite racers clocked 46 knots on it. Wow. Yeah, I don't want, I don't want to go that fast. So this the 600 sizes at square centimeters, like projected surface area or something like that, or this is a full-on top performance race, foil. It's not something that, the average person. Is going to use, it's very sharp edges on it. It's pointy and it's delicate, you bumped the bottom and it you don't want it. You don't want to scratch it, not just because it's expensive, but because the performance of it on, I used the Gulf soils and they're tough. They're tough on, I scraped the bottom all the time coming in, hitting a rock right in the sand. Sorry. I I just find it to describe it a little bit. For those listening to the podcast sites, it looks like it has a really thin front wing pretty flat with a little curve the tip slightly curved down or straightened out basically with those dihedral man. And everything's full carbon was the extended finish. And then we'll take it as a really long mass to it. Is that like a hundred centimeters? Something like that? Or how long is it mess? This one is a 96. Okay. They make a 1 0 2 and I believe an 80 something. I tried the 1 0 2 and I could see the advantage of using it on a coast run where you're blistering down wind and tall chop. You want to be able to clear the wave tops, but still keep your foil under water and going to Winward. I could really lean over, but going just a little bit longer, there was loo tiny bit of wobble in it compared to the 96. And and it, with the total box, it just is really tight. So I think this is the right length mass for me on it is. It is a little bit long for low tide. It cannot low tide is off limits. Medium, medium tide is okay. And you know you learn where the spots are, where you can go and where you can't. But the medium size is perfect for me. And the leading edge, she slosh and trailing edge is all one piece, which I think is one reason why it's so stiff and so tight. So the only place that comes apart is like great, right at the the joint between the mass and the fuselage. And then this is all one. This is all one piece construction, all one piece construction. There's two parts. There's the mask and the rest of it. And that you can adjust the pitch and the stabilizer. He has a system pretty clever. You put a spacer. I used a little nylon while. And you put that spacer in there. And then as you screw the three bolts down tight to the mast, it flexes the fuselage just ever. So a little bit, and that changes the pitch in the back, Wayne. A bigger spacer flexes more and gives it less pitch where it melts stabilizers more pitch. Interesting. No. So to get us set up like that, like how did you have to like special order and how long does it take and about how much does it cost? If somebody wanted to order one on it? When I originally placed my order on, it was a 12 week wait and they took my order with no deposit. And they said when it was ready, they would send for the check. And I told them that I was planning on racing in the store. And if I could get it, a week beforehand on that'd be great and we'll, they expedited it, they got it out to me early enough that I could train on it. And but I believe it's a 12 week waiting list, but I also know that they can, you can wait longer on, it was about $3,500 for the whole setup. That is the foil. I believe that included shipping. And at this point I'm putting it away until I do more testing with Ken and racing with Ken, trying to keep up with Ken winter is pretty tough. He also has a mic slab 800. And that's really why I got this 600 was so that I could keep up with him trying to test the wins. And of course it's a great race swing, but when I'm pre-writing and teaching I'm using the Gulf war. So I you guys obviously don't want to scrape over the reflux that on low tide or whatever. So like you said, it's Tragile and you don't want to scratch it and ruin the performance. So it makes sense. But would you say that was one of the, your secret ingredients to winning the race part of it? Yes, for sure. The foil, but also the board. I actually had some great wings to the D labs. And so actually something I wanted to mention too, like for the boards cause, cause it's such a thin profile and I'm assuming that it takes a as a pretty high takeoff speed. Like you can't like some of the big thick foils you can pop up at pretty low speeds, but this one looks like it would take a little bit higher speeds to pop up on foil. Surprisingly it, it pops right up. Now some of it's, some of it's my experience, but it it was later. During the regatta. And there are a couple of times when I, during the weekend that I had to pump pretty hard, flapping the wing and pumping the board to get up. But the majority of the time, I it's basically sheet in and go combination of the foil. There's so little drag. It reaches take-off speed very quickly. And that's the total box. And what about the star speed? Does it like, do you do you ever have a problem, like stalling with it stalling the foil or not really? Not really. That last video that I posted on gliding on foil, pretty much everything I'm riding this foil. It has a very nice glide to it. Sure. Surprisingly and I was thinking. On the windiest days that I might be able to do a set foil run with this setup. That there's almost enough volume. There is enough volume to float me, to stand still whether or not I could paddle it fast enough with a paddle to get up on foil on. And I've been out outside the reef in the rollers, luffing the wing and gliding for quite a ways on a couple hundred yards and thinking I could do this with a paddle, but once it does slow down, it's pretty tough to get the speed back up again, pumping it with your legs, but I'm pretty certain that 800 would work on a coaster. So yeah, the dominant paddling is something else I wanted to ask you about too, but let's finish the equipment thing here. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the wings, the important importance of the wings. We talked a little bit about the board the foot straps, the foil. Obviously the wing is other thing that's really important having the right size wing and then the, and the right profile and shape and all that kind of stuff for upwind downwind. And talk a little bit about that. Like what you found that is works best for you. With the D labs are pretty tough to beat on, you probably know, or maybe for the people that don't know Ken winner lives across the street, the designer for duotone, he's one of the designers here. There's a team in Europe that, that works with them as well, but he's the main guy. And I'll go out and race with him. And every now and then I'll throw out my ideas about, what to do. And he quickly shoots them down. So he's really, he does everything on, I'm just a benchmark out there racing with him, but he wants to raise up wind and then turn around and race down land. And then we swap wings and do it again. And there's another guy that runs with us regularly. Peter slate. He is he's national slalom champion in wind surfing. So he's got some experience in racing and he's the three of us go out there and beat up on each other. But Ken really puts a lot of emphasis on the speed of the wing up wind. And really when you think about it, if you have a wing that goes fast and is stable, both upwind and downwind, it's going to work on, in every aspect. Being able to get the speed to jump, being able to get on foil quickly on. So he's got all these different parameters and it's amazing to me we'll go out and do a number of runs and he'll decide right away. Oh, this one needs more, it needs more of this or that. So what determines the up wind speed of a wing, I guess the drag, the depth, the approach as a cider profile, or or more attention, or what are the things that make it work better on up, going up when the stiffness of the frame on the canopy tension, the draft position on the amount of twists or leech tension, all those things on, that's really his wheelhouse. I don't really try to design or pretend to be a. I think the draft position is really important because if it travels backwards, then it ruins the upwind performance rate. If the draft flexes too much or moves back too much, then that'll ruin the forward propulsion, right? Yes. Yes. And when we get, he'll get a new wing and it looks really good and we'll go out and test it. And sometimes it's amazing. And then there's a clear, cut difference that it's better or worse. Other times they're very similar, but he seems to know exactly what changes to make. And the, again yeah, I've been trying to get Ken to come on this show for for over a year. And he's always too busy designing new wings and kites. But he said maybe check back with him and at the end of July. So I'm going to keep trying, I'm going to keep trying to get him on the show. He's a little bit, he doesn't want to be in the limelight either, so it's very interesting. Definitely trying to get him on the show and then, they just for those who haven't watched, the first interview that we did I just want to do a little recap that you basically grew up in Kailua. Like I think ki peak Cabrina was one of your neighbors. You learned to win wind surf at a young age and then moved to Mali, started your lesson business. Now, and our teaching, the whinging but w the way he got into wing foiling was basically you were doing downwind, foil, standup, foil, downwinders with mark, Robert Horace and Ken winner. And then Ken was kinda having a hard time getting up on the foil. So he basically designed this wing to try and you were kinda making fun of him for about it, but then you saw at some point he saw it and you said, it looked like poetry in motion, and you have to try it as well. Yeah. Yes, that, that image of him coming down, the swells is burned into my brain. That was the turning point. It's okay, I got to try this. And because up until that point, we were set foiling down the coast and we were waiting for Ken to catch up. And in this case, we were sitting there waiting for him to catch up and he came down the swell. It was just a beautiful thing. So that was when I made the decision to try it. And at that point I think flash Boston had made his own way out of spars. And he went out and did a run on the sup board out and back, got some video and then the wing fell apart. And so the story goes and he never put it back together. It was a novelty thing, but, and Ken saw that and he said, okay, I'm going to make a wing and try it. So slash Austin was the pioneer, but then can actually develop the first inflatable wing kind of thing. The homework. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't so much that I was making fun of him. It was more of my scratching, my head, what is he doing? But yeah, he's, I think he can be now there's one other guy, Tony Legos that I believe did an inflatable wing. And I think there might be some video of him out there on foil, but he was ahead of his time. It didn't catch on. Okay. Okay. So basically what I wanted to ask you is I, lately I've been listening because that's how I got into wing filing twos. Like we were doing downwind standup foiling, and like you're on a wall with the wind is not that good usually. So we were struggling with that, trying to like mediocre conditions is so hard to get up on flow and stay up on foil. So when the wings came out, that was just like, oh, this is so much easier, and more fun because you're always flailing. You don't have to struggle to get back up. And once you come off the foil, but Lately I've been listening to the James Casey podcast. He has like a really good podcast. Now about downwind. Foiling is really enthusiastic about it, trying to get people into downwind foiling. And I talked to mark Rapa horse in the interview and he said, that's still his biggest passion, even though he doesn't get to do it as much anymore. But I wanted to ask you, do you still do downwind, standup foiling, or did you give up on that since you started winging? I gave up on it since I started winging and not, I did a run with mark wrap horse and we did it late in the evening. It was really rough and he got ahead of me and I tried really hard to stay with him. And the next morning I, my back hurt so bad. I couldn't walk. So I laid off from it. But now there's some new boards that are coming out. Dave Kalama he's calls it the Barracuda. That's quite a bit narrower and longer. And it looks like it's relatively easy to get up on foil. And since I laid off the down winning the foils have improved quite a bit and I think they're easier and faster. So I'm thinking, yes. I want to try it again on, but at the moment I'm still wrapped up in winging. So yeah. Now I'm exactly the same way I got, I stopped doing it once I got into winging, but now I'm going to getting curious and hearing about the new equipment that makes it a little bit easier, like to compare it to what we're using. Early on, I think might be worth another try on a good day though. I wouldn't want to go out in mediocre conditions if it's the waves or the wind smells nice and clean and easy to get up on them. I definitely going to try it again, but kinda got out of it too, but yeah. Okay. Just a few more things. It's been our gosh, it's almost two hours already, but we didn't want to ask you, like in one of your videos, you mentioned rotator cuff pain that you had, like in your shoulders, and that's why you liked to practice the movements before you do it on the water to avoid hurting yourself and so on, which I think makes a lot of sense. And I can relate to that, to add some rotator cuff issues, mostly from Santa paddling doing like the molcajete race and training a lot and stuff like that kind of insane, like my shoulder. So I had to do, I was actually had really bad pain for two years and I had to do physical therapy and stuff like that. And I found some good exercise that worked really well. So whenever I have a flare up, I do more of those exercises and that really helps. But but yeah, I just kinda wanted to hear your side of it. Like what kind of pain you have and how you deal with it and what you do. Fortunately my shoulders have healed up and I don't have the shoulder pain that I was having. I, I was just using Advil and ice on and that would tend to bother me at night in my sleep. And so I seen it in Advil and then once I was stronger, I did some, simple exercises with dumbbells, these and that seemed to, to help lightweight dumbbells on. So fortunately I have not had any trouble lately, but winging is something that, that it might restrict people that have shoulder problems, that it might be a problem to do that. But the new wings are so much lighter and stiffer. They don't muscle you around like the older ones. So maybe that's an impressive. Yeah, but yeah, I think it's definitely a good idea to practice the movements on the beach first, just to make sure that you don't get yanked around by the wind when you know, like no unexpected motion or throwing you back, like pulling them shoulder backwards or whatever, lift up, pulling. Those are the things that bothered my shoulder. And I found there's a little exercise I do on the beach where I bring the wing up overhead and then back down, up overhead. And even behind me and back down. And I found that has really improved my tax. Just doing that little warm up on the beach. When I go out in the water, I feel more confident doing the tax. Yeah. And I think too I was watching on your patron child that when about tacking 2 0 1, I think you called it, but just like when you bring your wing over your head, just to give the clue little push. It kind of ticks over and lands in the right place to accelerate out of the attack. That's a super important thing to, to learn how to do before, before you try to do those tasks, especially on your heel side, right? Yeah. But I'm also, just regarding aging well and staying healthy and so on. Do you have any good tips? I'm almost 55 now, so I'm not that far behind you. And I find, as I get older it's easy, obviously get injured, easier nutritionist super important so do you have any kind of tips or things you do that, that help you avoid inflammation or like nutrition, anything like that? I try to stay hydrate. I do every now and then maybe once or twice a month, I'll take Advil or Motrin, if I've had a long day on, but I think just staying active, I started water sports when I was 12 years old and I told my wife that I'd been practicing for this sport since I was 12. And really I've my whole life. I've been fortunate enough to spend in and around the water surfing, wind, surfing, sailing, kite, surfing, paddling, I did them all Chi to Oahu a number of times with a teammate then set foiling and now wing foiling. Now it just and I probably put in four days a week wing foiling Fortunate here on Maui that we have wind virtually every day. And you can go just about any time you want, but just getting out on the water and staying active. And I'm a little older, so I am cautious to avoid things that I might get injured like jumping. And I try not to overdo it on my sessions, and an hour or two, I use a harness so I can stay out longer on. And with the harness, I'm not putting the load on my shoulders going to Winward on, but yeah, just trying to stay active, I'm winging. Foiling has kept me young. It's gotten me back in the water. I was kinda over, I was over wind surfing. I was over kite surfing on the prone paddling or the sub paddling was hurting my lower back. That, that motion. I was just grinding my spine and I but wing foiling, it's an other than the initial stages of climbing on the board, fallen off, climbing on the board. Once you get past that point, there's very little pressure in your hands. And because the foil is above the chop or the board is above the chop, it's like powder snow. So there's not a whole lot of pressure. And there's people out there that say, oh, you don't need a harness. There's no pressure. And that's true, unless you're racing Ken winter up, when, you need that power to, to drive up wind. But it's just really forgiving easy on the body. And I hope that I know I have a number of patrons and students that are over 70 that are foiling and being 60. They're an inspiration to me that I think I can keep doing this for another 10 years. Barring any injuries. I think it's, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a fountain of youth and it's great to see so many different age groups doing it too. And like you said, the initial learning curve is a little bit can be a little bit dangerous, especially for older people, you have to be really careful not to injure yourself in the beginning, I think. But once you get it down, it's really yeah, like you said, very low impact and not really that hard on your body. So it's something I think I can keep doing for quite a while. I'm hoping. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Excellent. Anything else that you wanted to talk about? Let me see here. So many, actually we never can you show us your new camera amount? I did. I did want to get back around to that. So you have this camera Mount that months on your plate. Underneath the plate Mont of the foil. And then it sticks out behind the back of the board. So this, I made this plate, actually. I had a local machine shop welded up in town on and displayed sandwiches between the foil and the board on the track mounts with the Tuttle box, I had to cut this groove to get it to fit the Tuttle. And so it hangs off the back of the board. And then at the other end, I have a GoPro Mount on it with a little floaty, just in case it comes off. I also have the gro GoPro floaty on there. So if I lose the camera and I've lost a few that's one Mount. So that's how you get that follow cam look like. It looks like there's a camera falling, like a drone coming in right behind you kind of thing. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's this action right here. This clip here on and I can aim the camera up to get the hand work. I can Mount it taller on. So it is, and you said you tried the go at the GoPro max. Like the GoPro max 360. That's the one I've been using a lot. It's like the as I get 360 lens, but then it takes a lot of work to edit it afterwards. And you said you don't really like using this one that much. So you use just a regular GoPro eight or nine? Yeah. This was the max and I found that it is difficult to use the 360. And I've found that generally trying to capture things that the regular hero amount or just using one side seems to work. The level horizon is really cool. It keeps the horizon level as the board banks right on. I also have a solo shot camera and this is. You wear this satellite tracker on your body and then the camera will track you Zuni and zoom out. And when this works, it's exceptional, I can shoot 120 frames a second. So it gets slow motion, but so often it thinks I'm over there and it's looking the wrong way. It misses the shot. Yeah. And I had a love, hate relationship with that thing. Cause yeah, like half the time it would work great. In the other half of the time, it was like nothing. All it, the whole session I would get was just like walk water without me in it. Like where I'm just out of the frame or something like that. I got lots of that. I've got lots of that footage, but when it does work, it's exceptional that I have irregular Sony 4k. I just got this recently, but I need someone to film and my wife has been doing that. I also have the drone. It's a Maverick too. Yeah, this is really good, but because so many of the sailing spots are near the airport. I can't fly this. Oh yeah. And then yeah, that's kinda my camera gear. But you said mostly you use a, this irregular GoPro like a GoPro hero and eight or nine with the horizon leveling and yes, I also have the nine with the hydrophobic lens, which is really good. So many of my shots are ruined because the hydrophobic lens or the non hydrophobic lens, particularly that the max, when water gets on it, it ruins the shot. So interesting. So that's a good one on the camera gear. So how often do you come out with the new video? Do you try to do it on a regular schedule or is there like a like a certain I try to put one out once a month and I'm gonna pull my patrons to see what they'd like to see next. I have a few ideas, but I try and get ideas from them. And then when I'm out teaching, when I see a particular pattern where a number of people are having trouble with a certain issue, then I'll try and capture that and try and solve that problem. Okay. Okay. So as the fastest person on Maui, what are some tips for going fast on a wing for aboard board? I'm not the fastest, I'm just joking, but as the winner of the race anyway first one on last one off first one on the wall. Last one off the water. You got to put your time in, you're not going to get good thinking about it, sitting on the beach. So that's the biggest tip is just spending a lot of time practicing it for sure. Time out there, you can buy speed, you can buy speed. You can buy the foil, you can buy the board, you can buy the wing, all of that, but you also have to know how to use it. So it just takes some time. Yeah. And that part is the, I think the more important part than the equipment, I the equipment is super important, especially at the very high level. I think where a little bit can make a difference. But I think for the average person, that's just about yeah. The technique and practicing it and to get faster, yeah. I think that's where you make them. That makes a big

Aloha friends, It's Robert Stehlik.  Welcome to season number two of the blue planet show. If you're watching this, you probably already know that this show is all about wing foiling and the personalities behind the sport. I try to go a little bit deeper, find out more, get the good, juicy stories and just learn more about the people and how they live their best life. So I hope you can join me for another season. Today's show is a really cool talk story session, with four of Oahu best wing foilers. We just give each other advice, you know, for more advanced stuff like wing foiling in onshore wind, how to handle your wing without getting in your way. And then also jumping off the top of the, off the lip then landing back in the wave.  But we also talk about more entry-level stuff. Just like how to get up on the foil and tips for beginners, like how to get started in this cool sport. So I hope you really enjoy this conversation. I just wanted to apologize that, you know, it's been a while since, last year's 16 episodes.  I got really busy opening a second location for Blue Planet that we now have a new shop in Haleiwa,  it's running pretty smoothly now. And then around Christmas time or COVID, and I was really feeling low energy and not that good for several months. So about a third of the people who get COVID actually feel the long-term symptoms. So I hope you're not one of them, but I'm happy to report that my energy is back. I feel good. I'm excited to produce more shows. So I'm going to, re-interview some of the people that I talked to last year and also talk to new people, and I really appreciate everyone's suggestions, comments on blog. Um, keep them coming and I appreciate the support. And, uh, so yeah. Hope you enjoy this cool conversation with my buddies. All right. Thanks for joining me guys. Today I got core Eli, Derek and Lucas here with me to do a little voiceover on a video that we shot a few weeks ago. And I wanted to talk a little bit about winning an entre when like riding waves and entre wind. Cause it's something that I always find a little bit tricky with the wing handling and stuff like that. So, uh, Luca was the drone photographer, um, that day and then Koa, Eli and Derek, and I were all in the water. So I'm going to screen screen-share here and we're going to play this video. Can you guys see the screen? Okay, cool. So yeah, this was kind of a rainy overcast day and you went to another spot first and that was. Raining. And, uh, we're unsure if the wind was going to be good. So we kept going and, um, and then the wind seemed really light and we weren't sure if it's going to be windy enough. So we ended up sending out, um, or. To see if it was windy enough. So tell us a little bit about that call you are the first one to go out. How was it just to get going? Yeah, it was a bit nerve wracking just because it was my first time being there and I was just like, oh no, what if I go to the sand bank and like hit the sand and like, just get stuck and hoping that the wind was there. Yeah, it's kind of a tricky spot because if you can't get up on foil, you end up getting, you know, pushed downwind into the bay and like basically on the, on the shallow sand. Um, but once we saw you, um, able to get up and going, we all pumped up and went out as well. And then this is actually, um, at my second session, I came in and got the camera, my back mounted, um, GoPro max. But yeah. Um, I w what I wanted to talk about a little bit, like, one thing I struggle with is when you're, when you're riding the wave going, you know, going with the wind, I never know where to place it. So it does like, cause if you put it in front of you, you end up getting, um, kind of dark winded, and then sometimes when you put it behind you, then it gets like stuck on the water. So, um, maybe Eli, tell us a little bit about how you, how you handle the wing, um, and entre conditions. Um, what I had when I try to do is have it luffing behind me with enough momentum. So before I set it behind me, I'd make sure though Ling has momentum and, um, and is moving enough for it to float, because if it, if it doesn't have that, um, movement or momentum, it'll kind of drop, like you mentioned. Um, also sometimes I'll let the tip, touch the water for a little bit. Um, and when I turn, I usually try and swing it around. Um, and that, that swinging energy really helps keep it floating a little, but yeah, you're right. It's really challenging with onshore conditions. Uh, yeah. What about you, Derek? Do you have any pointers for the I'm writing an entre conditions? Um, I think because I use that Y handles to, well, when I'm surfing. Um, I don't really feel any like w even if it's on shore off shore, it, I kind of keep the weight on my shoulder. Like, like a shield that prevents any bad windy or any kind of stuff. Yeah. It just, I don't know, wherever my shoulder goes again, it helps. But, um, if I was to hold the front end, Definitely would have to take a different approach to yeah. I mean, yeah. I've noticed that too, even in, um, well, I guess if it's tied off shore, it's kind of hard to do that, but you kinda like to keep the wing really close to your shoulder and then hold it by the Y handle. Yes. Yeah. You know, and with that, that allows me to kind of use the wing. A wing tips, like as a pivot point, you know? Yeah. It seems like with that onshore conditions, how Derek codes, it, sometimes the one that's on shore, the wind will kind of power up the top of the wing and he'll get some power and speed from that almost. Yeah. Like kind of pushing you to kind of like call you back. You know, when the guys put the wing behind him and he just riding for miles. Um, I can use that as kind of, as a advantage and get me to fats, um, spots or, um, project you to a turn to make it look like your attorney even harder, but actually what's happening is the wind. Pushing you and you just, you just surfing a foil, you know, you said about mitigate what happened. Yeah. But what have I, what about you called away? Um, was this the first time you, we know you winged in Kailua and other onshore conditions before? Yeah, I would just say, um, just keep the speed going and. The wing will just do its own thing. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I think it just takes some practice to like, I, I guess I just hadn't had that much practice writing and entre when it's just different. When, uh, insider conditions, you can just kind of flag it out and it'll stay, stay kind of next to you, but it's definitely different when it's on shore conditions. Yeah. You just, you just have to make sure that it doesn't end up in front of you when you're going faster than the, than the wind. Yeah. So like, if you're going down the line on the wave or with the, um, sometimes you can, you can get back winded and then that's like, you definitely don't want the wing between you and the, and the wave basically, but I I've noticed. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You end up, you end up running over it. You're going to run over you. And land on it. Um, like the rafting or something, or it's going to come in front of you. And then, um, if there's other surfers or all your other winger friends, you're not going to be able to see anything at all. You know? So you just got to, um, I think if you go and you probably spend a few hours, you should be able to figure out what a word. Yeah, but it's definitely not something where you just go over there and you show up and you, and you comfortable and you just gotta work it out or surf other spots in that similar wind range and just figure out what our expense. Right. Cool. Um, so the, the one, the one thing that was really fun that day was like just jumping. On the kind of like jumping off the top of the wave and landing back into the wave. And that that's seems like it's pretty easy to do when the winds blowing on shirk as the wind kind of pushes you back into the wind wave. So you, do you want to talk a little bit about that technique of like jump jumping off, off the top of the wave and landing back into maybe. You were doing a lot of those, those jumps. I am regular footage. Um, so the wind is a little side onshore, um, kind of favorable, uh, for being regular footed. That means jumping going left would be he'll side, um, with his light on short conditions. You know, anytime it's on shore, it's a little easier to stay on the wave. Um, but these conditions were really light and onshore. So it makes it a little more challenging. You definitely want to project your momentum forward and not too much to the side. You don't want to fall out the back. You want to make sure you land in front of the wave so you can, um, continue writing it. But yeah, anytime it's on shore conditions, it'll kind of help push you into the wave a little, uh, yeah, look it out. And I was a nice one in landed right in the white wash and came down. That was a nice one. Any tips we're pulling off the landings more consistently? No, it's all up. Um, it's really helpful if you land in front of the wave so you can keep your speed and momentum up. Um, also the way you point your foil in the water, when you come down can be helpful. And when you kinda bring the foil up, that kind of helps stabilize it a little, you know, like a little Railey or, um, kind of bringing it up a little that helps it's helps me anyway, stabilize it. And it helps me stay. Um, she did in with the wing. You can see Barrick bringing up and landing it right down there. Yeah. I find it helps to, um, put your weight a little bit on the back. So you don't nose dive on the landing. And then what seems to work for me is like touching down slightly with the board, but then trying to bring it, pop it back up right away on, back on the foil. Um, What about you, Derek? You got any tips for the landings yeah. In that, um, you know, watching a video. And so you would, when you come in to your approach to, you know, do an air, you kind of hit that top section, but you whole, your wing kind of it kicks so that the wing, the wind is in your cell and it's pushing you. You know, not, not necessarily just going straight up and holding it. Cause if you put your wings straight up, it'll take you up and in a way will pass by you. So you got to kind of go up and angle your wings or the like the direction that the waves are going and it'll help you push you and the land you towards the wave fate. And then from there you can surf it out. So I think if, if you was to just hit it like a regular. And I'm like years going out. It'll get all your score, take you straight up. The wave will pass and you land behind somewhat in some of the videos, you can see some of the guys land behind the oh, but they didn't mean to do that. It's just that the projected objection and the way to win, you gotta travel. You gotta take your errors in the same direction that the wave is, is slowing. Yeah, that makes sense. What about you COA? You got any pointers for jumping? Uh, I would usually just pump my wing, get enough air. And once I do, I try to go like on the edge of the wave and once I'm in the air, I try to like snap it onto the wave. So if I'm going, here's the wave. And then if I'm going like of it, I try snapping on it so I can go back down. It. But my dad says always like pointed down and then you'll come back up. But usually that doesn't work cause I usually just nose dive. So I like keep it flat when I land. Yeah. I've noticed that too. If, if I, if I landed to flatter, then once the nose catches, then you kind of you're done with it. So I almost try to lean a little bit on the tail, keep the weight on the tail so that doesn't happen. But yeah, here you can see Derrick really. Getting the wind behind you. So it's almost like the winds pushing you, right? Like the winds pushing you from behind. And then I ran to, I mean, I played this one again, cause that was kind of a good one. Um, see where yeah. You get to being kind of behind you where it's kind of pushing you and then swing it around. That's pretty stylish. I haven't figured that one out yet. Yeah, no, no. It seemed like watching the videos and then, you know, from when we were there, it seemed, didn't seem like you have any issues, um, with the onshore, I guess it was, um, um, that's what you felt when you, when you was writing, you felt like it was kinda, um, Hampering your style a little bit, Rob. Yeah. I mean, I hadn't felt like I could either go left or go. Right. But then like the transitions between like going like back and forth, weaving back and forth, I just haven't figured out to put the wing behind me like that yet, you know, like where we're at and where it's smooth, you know? Um, that's kind of still something. And let's say coy, you can still kinda, you're still working on that too. A lot of times the wing wants to flip over like here. Yeah. Like it catches and subs over. Um, so, but yeah, I seen you too. Like, um, you and Eli, both, um, sometimes you, you drag the, the tip of the wing a little bit, so it kind of comes behind you and when you turn. She not trying to help you get help. It help it flow. And then they can this one too. It kind of helps for me. If I switch hands on me. That one, I came over my head. Um, but sometimes when I'm turning to keep it directly behind me, almost like in my draft, uh, past the leading edge handle behind, behind my back and switch hands. Um, sometimes that'll help keep that swinging momentum. There's almost, uh, almost like there's more rotation, you know, inertia coming out of the. Uh, especially with those bigger wings. Yeah. I think I was riding a seven meter. There's a lotta, um, a lot of meat and mass to it, but those wings, those wings move through the air pretty well. I like the momentum that develops from those, um, from those wings actually flying through the air. Yeah. I mean, having a big wing is nice too, when you do jumps, because it's so lofty. Yeah. You can kind of really cold, like it they'll pull you up right. About using a bigger wing too. All right. I think that was it for this video and the stuff stop sharing here. You see, uh, yeah. Everybody working that day. I mean, you know, Well, I didn't impressive of what everybody, you know, to the performance it was doing. And, and just, um, you could see by the look in the, um, the people that was proning or longboarding, and even the guys in a parking lot, you know, they just looking at us. Why aren't we doing that? You know? Yeah. I mean, it's always fun to go out with a group of guys that then everybody's kind of pushing each other and you watch the other guys doing stuff and then you try to, and stuff like that. Yeah. So definitely makes it more challenging. But, um, yeah, I wanted to, um, talk a little about this one. Where I'm Derek. I think this is the first time you, you pulled off a back loop. Is that right? Um, have you pulled up other ones? Um, just one before, but this is the only one on, you know, like film and stuff like that. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about like your technique. Like what do you do? What do you try? What do you think about. How does it work for you? Um, my dad. So when I attempted a few, I noticed my wing was gained. Uh, and then I remember once you mentioned, um, trying to do to, uh, you watching a video and you said, oh, you, it seems like I don't get enough air time before I start my rotation. I try to flick it as soon as I hit the waves. Um, so watching other guys' videos, um, I noticed that Dinko project themselves up first and then they complete their rotation. So, um, earlier that day I tried to do one and take taking the wind caught and I felt like, gosh, I got to change that up. So when I was going out, um, a few other times, not even jumping off, just project the wing with my leading. On the leading edge side, just going straight up and jumping straight up, kind of do kind of deal and not necessarily rotating, just getting that field to, okay. I got to go up first. Then once, once I'm up at the peak, then go ahead and rotate a man on that one. That's what that's kind of what happened is just, you know, kind of went up and then did a rotation and lucky thing. Luckily. None of the tips or, or anything else, um, and pulled me back down and then I was able to, you know, just land it, still trying to working on writing out of it. But, um, the last time I attempted the wings caught anyway, even on when I came down and it caught on the back of the wave and my foyer. True to wing and other way. Oh man. So I knew I never do. What's supposed to be done, you know, so that's part of it. Right, right on. So I'm just playing, uh, another video. Um, this is on the north shore. Where I'm with Derek and Isla and I, so, and actually I wanted to ask you Luke Lucas, um, talk a little bit about the challenges of, um, filming a wing furthering with the drone. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Um, probably about mile off shore with you guys. And this has been a learning experience for me as well. I did get some good shots, but a lot of it was learning how to keep everybody in frame. This video that we did was actually probably one of my best, best two better ones. Um, but just trying to keep everybody in frame and especially if there's multiple people. Like this clip right here was awesome. Was probably one of the best clips I ever did. Um, but just especially if there's like two, three people trying to keep everybody in frame was the hardest on trying to stay, stay and make sure that I'm high enough, that nothing's going to happen. I'm not going to run into anybody or catch away of myself. Um, but just like with foiling practice, We can get better. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and what's interesting too, is that like this, for this seven minute video, we, we were on the water pipe for several hours and I think you used like, used up like nine batteries, right. Like flew in and out nine times and it is pretty far out, so yeah. Um, it takes a lot of work to get that footage. Yeah. But yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about the difference. Like here, you can see the winds blowing more like side off shore, so it's really different the way you hold the wing that you can just hold it out to the side. And it pretty much just, um, it's, I, I find it easier to handle the wing when it's just blowing off site off shore. Uh, w w what do you think Eli. Yeah, definitely. It keeps the wing, um, to the side and behind you, nothing in the front. So you got a, um, clear view of the wave or where you need to go. Uh, also when it's on shore, the wing is in front of you and you're always battling the tip from the tips falling down in front of you and touching the water. So it's definitely much easier. Uh, but this place in particular is pretty tricky where we were at a win is really up and down. Uh, once you ride the wave further and the wind gets really late. Um, so it's pretty tricky is kind of challenging. Yeah, for sure. It's a tricky spot. And if you fallen in the impact zone, sometimes there's like no wind and you can't really get going again and you can't get back out again. Uh, but I think Derek, sometimes you try to still kind of get the wing behind you, even in the side offer conditions, right? Um, yes. Yeah. With that, with that Y handle, um, um, shoot position. Um, I can just, you know, it's, it's kind of beneficial cause I can go into the wind and. Back against the wind and just still hold the wing and it will really affect, um, the good thing about the size storage, like, you know, where the wind is, where the wing going to be. Cause the wind is just blowing. Um, versus the onshore condition. You, you kinda okay. Um, I'm writing, right. And I'm going fast. So the wing is going to be behind me, but as soon as I turn, everything would drop in and you know, all of a sudden you have the weight in front of you. So with this one, no matter where you're going, you should be in front of because you have that super strong gusty close the window, as soon as, as soon as you. It's going to be that side, whatever west side of Euro. Right. But yeah, with that, with that little white stuff, because it's not on the leading edge, I feel like I can hold it and manipulate the wing a little more too. Kind of conform to, you know, to the waves. Like sometimes when you on the wave and if it gets deeper, it's a lot of times a week, the wind will come up the face and blowing up and then, you know, if you're not ready for that, you, you, um, the loss handle would just starts spinning on you. Cause all of a sudden it's going from side shore, um, position until it. And when you get to the C part of the wave, it's going to go start going. Um, from your feet up here ahead, and then you're going to be, you know, trying to fight that. Yeah. Cause while you're holding that Y handle it's your forearm and your shoulder is also in contact with the wing, right? So you got three points of contact. It seems like it would be a lot more stable than just holding the left handle. So then you can kind of stabilize it with your shoulder too, I guess that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just, it just, it becomes another part of your, um, yeah. So another part of your body, you know, you just got to get ready for that little push of winning Tibet when you, or, or, or whatnot. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about like, like the wing size. Like I know I kinda like using a little bit bigger wing and I know Eli, I guess it just depends on your body way too. If you're, if you weigh more, it's definitely helpful to have a bigger wing. It's also easier to handle a bigger wing, I guess, if you're tall and, uh, and build a stronger, bigger, but, um, I've noticed Derek most of the time, it seems like you're almost always on your four meter wing. Huh? Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I tried, unless the wind is almost dead. I'll go ahead and use a five meter. But as far as, um, I find the four is just fine, you know, it's enough to going, um, mobile 1 45, 1 50 pounds, 150 pounds. And, um, My board is like, I think it's about 75 liters and I'm using a thousand, most times you're getting a thousand, um, oil. So it's, it's enough to get, get me going, you know? And usually when you start, you, you get up on in the standing position on your board before you lift the wing out of the water, right? Like you stand up on the board and then you lift up doing. Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, not on the knees or, or I'm sinking or whatever. Yeah. Is, do you do it that way to call? I know, I know your dad, Eddie does it that way too. Right? Standing on the board. Yeah. He's the one that taught me how to do it. So you do it that way too. Yeah. I never did a knee start before. And what about you? I am here. I use, uh, my board has a lot of leaders, so I stand on it first leaning on the wing and then I'll pull it up. Yeah. Yeah. I, I recently started using a pretty small board. It's only like, um, I think as a run 55 liters or something like that. And like, there's, there's no way I could stand, stand up on it. So I pretty much have to knee start, but I've, that's how I've been doing it all along anyways. But. But yeah, I guess that that standing technique is probably a little bit easier on your, on your knees and back to, you know, you don't, you don't have to kneel on your board as well. It can be a little tip here. Cause when you're up out of the water, it's a little less stable. Right. So I think there's pros and cons to both, both ways. So let's talk a little bit about getting up on foil, like, um, the technique for like pumping or like if, if the wind's not quite enough to easily, like have it pull you up onto the foil, like what do you do to kind of, uh, get moving and get up on the foil? What are some pointers? I think you have a lot of trades for this. Yeah. Yeah. As like the light wind master. Huh. And I think a lot of it has to do with the type of foil too. I know the higher aspect wing. Uh, front wings with less cord, longer wink at a longer wingspan. Um, in my experience, those files like to, um, speed is your friend when you're trying to get up. So when I try to get up with those enlight, when I really focus all of my pulling and pumping. To go forward, gaining speed and a speed helps you get up. When I use a lower aspect wings or the mid aspect wings, um, I tend to, uh, direct my pulling and pumping upwards. So I try to pull my weight up and I try to bounce the board to get it up. But with the higher aspect wings, I try to pull my weight forward and looking for any kind of, especially in the wind is looking for any kind of current or little bumps that might be going your way of trying to get on that bump and use that to build your speed as well. Yeah. And I think like for gaining speed for high aspect, for like that has like a kind of a high. Planning speed. Um, it really helps to have a board that kind of, uh, Glidewell tour kind of generates that speed easily. Right. Um, But I guess the other, the other check is in light, wind is just to not fall in. Right. So as long as you up fine, if you don't come off the floor, usually you can keep it going. But once you come off, then sometimes you just have to wait for gust or whatever to, to pick you up again, right? Yes. Yeah. And, uh, um, you know, initially when we all was learning, we just would stay out until. Oh, shucks, without a paddling, you know, but now as, as you progress, I think every winger, you see the signs and you recognize there's a, there's a rain cloud, or there's not, there's not too much texture. And we recognize now is, well, we've got to go in, you know, and we fly to other people. I mean, in our circle, we fight through other people like, Hey, Set in. And usually we make it in, you know, it's the most signs when you try to, um, push the limits is when you get stuck out there and you gotta, you know, get a ride in or some, somebody would just come down to the beach and pick up. Yeah, but I mean, I find that, well, here in Hawaii, anyways, like even though in the wind's dying, it'll, you know, they'll still be like a couple more gusts coming before it completely dies. You know? So sometimes if you're just patient instead of paddling and you can wait and eventually there'll be another, another gust to get you going. And then you can usually ride back in. I dunno, like to me sometimes it's, it's worth it to be patient and wait a little bit before. Take that long paddle and yeah. Yeah. But it, it, it's, it's part of the learning curve where you recognize that and you go, okay, the next one we're going to, you know, I'm going in, in, in the beginning, it used to be like always we're we're we're we're a good wind. Again, let's go, you know, and you just keep saying out. Ken 15 minutes and all of a sudden it's like for real, that when it's gone and then you're, you're going, oh, I, I really think I kind of paddle now and you know, yeah. Sometimes when the last Gus comes, you, you just as best as go in right in with, with that last guest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then I found, um, I noticed for, for myself on getting up on wing when it's lighter, when, um, when I'm first starting to holding a wing in my hand and I'm waiting, um, it'll be hillside, which is, you know, little bit easier for most people. Um, I'll have my feet. Y at a white scent in this, in my straps. And was it fueled a little bit Gus coming, I'll give a couple pumps with my arms, couple, you know, pump my legs. And then as I'm going forward with the, with my arm momentum and getting that little pool, I'll go ahead and slide my foot forward in the straps. And as that little moment, um, movement of my foot coming forward will be enough to like scoop the foil forward. And oh, and that'll help me get up on foil easier than, you know, just standing in a, like a lock position. Hmm. It's hard. It's, it's kinda that. I know that's kinda what I do. It's hard to kind of picture it, but this time we're at the beach, I'll kind of show you, you know, just to like, kinda like holler, um, the don't, uh, prone paddlers, when you do Flatwater. Same momentum. He just kind of scoot the board for you. Slide your feet in the straps forward and that'll, that'll help propel to foil forward and up as you, as you're pumping your arms. Yeah. I mean, one thing about pumping the wing too, is like sometimes I see people pumping kind of almost too hard where they're pulling so hard that then there's like the wing just like flops on the way back. So they, I think the trick is to kind of have more of a smooth, um, kind of more of a. Um, like it's, it's more like a rotation and you, you still, you don't want the wing to get back winded or, or flat. Totally. Like you want to keep a little bit of power in the wing, but it's like generating a little bit of extra pull. And then at the same time, as you're kind of pulling on the wing, you kind of lift up on your feet a little bit and sometimes that's enough to release the board and get going. Yeah. But, um, It's tricky, but that's a, and that's, that's a similar, similar concept towards, um, you know, when you say you want to do two for one, there are you pumping into ways you got to have that schooled cadence that, that, that pumping, um, cause if you kind of go like too much off rhythm, you, you won't be able to do. Maneuvered at foil and then you'll come off foil and then drop down. So same thing with, with, like you said, with the wing pumping, you, you need to have that, you know, that boy, that nice cadence going. Okay. Yeah. Corey, do you have any tips on, on getting, going or getting up on foil? So, like, as you said, I do that around motion and if I go too hard, that's going to come back at me and that just makes it slows me down. So what I do is, uh, once I see a little bit texture in the water, I get on my board, I started doing that rounded a rotation. And then what I do is I jump, like I jump in the water, like I'm jumping, jumping. Uh, without the board, I just like jump up and while I'm just pumping, pumping, pumping, and once I feel that pool, I just like pull it and then I jump into it and that's how I get up. Oh, so you kind of almost jumped with your feet off the board completely to unweight completely kind of thing. Yeah. Do you have your feet in the straps when you do that? Uh, sometimes or like, yeah, sometimes I keep it off and then I just like, go on it and I slide the board. More to get the motion going. And then I jumped and then the board will come up and then I put my feet in the straps, or just, if it's, if it's windy, I just put my feet in the straps and I could just get up. Yeah, but yeah. So something to mention for kind of people starting out, like when you, when you're starting out, you, I guess you depend more on having either really strong wind or just a bigger wing, um, bigger wing and a bigger foil to get going, but yeah, as you get better and develop that technique for pumping and so. Then you can work your way down to using a smaller foil and a smaller wing and, and a smaller board and, and having, having that equipment, it just makes it everything else nicer if you, because basically if you're using a big board and a big wing and a big foil, Once you're up on foil, then it's kinda, you have everything it's like more than you need. Yeah. As you're overpowered, you have too much from the foil and the board's kind of in your way, because so big. So as, as you get better, that's kind of the goal to kind of use the smallest equipment you can use basically. Right. And, you know, core brought up a good point. He said that when he sees a Gus coming or he sees the texture on the water, Um, it's really important to know the area you're in, uh, depends how the wind is blowing. If the wind is more off shore, you get a shorter, um, a shorter glimpse at when, um, the gust is coming. Sometimes if it's side or on shore, you can see the gusts coming from far away. And it's important in my opinion, to, to be able to visually tell. Kind of like the wind speed. You can see the texture on the water and you can be thinking like, oh, that's not enough wind. And you see more texture on the water, you think, okay, when that Gus comes here, that's going to be enough wind. So you can start prepping when you see it coming, you can start getting a. Pulling a little build up your momentum, build up your speed. Then when that Gus does hit you, you're halfway there you need is a couple of pumps or a couple little hops. And that's especially important when the wind is light and the guts are coming, um, you know, really quick and short little puffs. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. Um, to, and also to kind of save your energy. Sometimes you've aware themselves out before the good Guskey comes and then they fall in right. When, when the wing wind is strong enough to just pull them out without doing anything. Right. So, um, yeah, sometimes just being a little bit patient and waiting for that, the right moment to take off is really key. Right. And watching, looking for it, looking up when, and see what's coming. And the other thing too, is if you're trying to pull yourself up and the wind is not strong enough, if you're going, um, away from shore, you could be pulling yourself far away from shore and you're going to have to paddle in, um, farther. And you can also be pulling yourself away from the windier spot tool. Like if you kind of know your area. So if you're just standing up. Um, you know, and the, when is too late to get up, it could, you could be sailing away, you know? So it might be better to sit down until you see a good Gus coming. So you're not losing ground or anything. Yes. Yeah. I agree with that. We seen that a bunch, a bunch of times where, um, it'll be strong enough to keep you moving on the surface, but not, you know, gun. To get you up and flying. Um, so we see, you know, a bunch of times where guys are just trying, try and try and guys and girls actually. And, um, there ended up going like way down the coast or way out, you know? And, um, luckily there's a, you know, a steady Gus and they can get up and then fly back in. So, um, yeah, I also recommend, you know, if, if you looking on the water surface and you see as kind of glassy and still. You look behind of it and you see texture, you just kind of sit and wait, or you just kinda hold your wing, uh, put your wing in the water, like an anchor and just, you know, wait till you see it, um, to that texture is coming closer. And once you come in closer, then you get your balance, get your stance ready, and then you get ready to go and give that couple pumps and hopefully you get up. Right. Exactly. And then I've noticed too, like sometimes. Um, even, even when you have a really big wing, you still have to wait for that. Gus it's like, not like you can just get going at any, any moment you want, right. Even with the seven meter weighing, you still have to wait for that Gus to get going. But, and I think one of the big advantages of having a really big wing in those, on those light wind days is that you can cut. Um, make it through the, through the laws. Like if there's a spot where there's almost no wind at all, with the big wing, you can just kind of fly through it without too much trouble. Whereas on a small wing, you kinda wear yourself up pumping and maybe not make it through that law. Um, so that's kind of, I think one of the bigger advantages of having a big wing and light wind is just that you can keep going easier more than getting it going earlier. Right. Um, so, and Derek, I know you've been teaching a lot of people. Like what, what kind of stuff do you see? Like, do you have any tips for beginners people starting out? Like, um, what do you, what kind of mistakes do you see a lot? Like what, what kind of tips do you give people that are starting out and learning? Um, a lot of things I see is they're going, they're trying to be, um, take bigger steps than they should. Like, can you be more at bats? You know, oh, I'm better than this. I foil, I tight. I do all of that. And they just use two small boards, wings. Um, they're trying to pump and pump their legs and pump their arms at the same time. Um, and then trying to go to too much of an advanced spot, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with going to a little kiddie pool or, you know, learning area. Get it down and, um, advanced from there, you know, like, like everybody else that did, did it, you know, and it's always good as, especially when you, you, when you do it back then you, you want to, um, learn something else. It's always good to go back, work on that thing means that little kiddie pool and then, you know, apply it to, um, the breaks and the cell phone guy. So Donna, don't try to advance to quickly go and like Flatwater locations first. And I find it, it really helps to have a place to where you can just go downwind, right. Where you don't have to worry about staying in one spot. Like you can just keep going down wind or get picked up at somewhere down downwind or something like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause a lot of times, um, it's a mental thing too, so you know, when you're flying and you're going further down. And, and you looking back Ingrid hole, how am I going to get back to my car or, or back to the beach or my friends or whatnot, that kind of puts a damping audit. And then you end up coming in to shore and you end up walking back and 15 minutes with all this B gear. And then when you, you go out twice, but a third time you go into the way that I'm done, you know? So if, if you can get somewhere where, um, You can go a few miles straight down when that, that would be ideal. Or if you can go with somebody that has a, you know, um, escort boat, jet ski, or something like that, then you, you don't have to worry mentally. You don't have to worry, how will I get back? You know? So that, that really helps any other big, good beginner tips. Um, don't give up cause you know, once you get it, it's good. Yeah. I, yeah, I see that too. Like a lot of people just kinda, um, they, they think they're going to learn it in a couple of days and then when they don't, they get frustrated and they give up on it, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, if you, I mean, it's no shame in asking. Assistant, um, for, you know, tips from anybody else and even taking a lesson or two, you know, cause it's, um, it'll just help out in the long run because if he try, uh, you know, you, you see people around, whether it's, um, all over the world and they try to do it on their own and it's, it takes them it, they might get it eventually, but it takes them longer than if they went to, uh, you know, like that middle, proper routes. Yeah. What about you call? You got any pointers? I know you've only learned to wing for like about a year ago or how long have you been, have you been doing it? Uh, I would say a little less than a year. Like it's like the second week that I started to like, learn how to hydrofoil itself, like soap and, uh, some beginner tips, I would say. Yeah, just don't get. Just no shame and asking for help, ask for tips and yeah, that's it. Would you say, um, some foiling is easier or wing foiling was easier for it to, for you to learn? Uh, I would say wing foiling, just because self-fulfilling, you have to like, actually get on the wave, but with weighing, you just need, when we can like control the board, however way you like, then. And like have some support, uh, like the wind holding you while you're moving your wing. Cause when you're on a sub, you're just like balancing it out by yourself. Yeah. I agree with that. What about you? You lying? You got any more tips? And I'd say, um, when learning it's really helpful, if you make it easier on yourself, uh, get the right gear, especially if you foil before either sub or prone, um, you're gonna want a boy. With enough leaders for you to comfortably stand on. Um, you probably gonna want a little bigger foil than you're used to just, um, more lift in general. Um, that'll make things easier, more lift, more stability would definitely help. Also practicing on land is real helpful because once you're in the water, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna be worried about balancing or be worried about getting up on foils. If you've already got your, when handling basic stone from playing around on the, on the land, just passing hand to hand, um, practicing little jibes or whatnot in the wind. Um, that'll save you a lot of time and also practicing with a skateboard on a nice flat area. Um, that helps. That really helps with transitions too, like jiving and tacking, learning the emotions to that. Cause so it easier to do it on a board skateboard then on the water when it's on the forest, staying up on foil and all that right now. Cool. Well, um, are there any, is there anything you guys want to say to the people getting into the sport? Like in terms of like the community or like any message you want to give to everybody getting into the sport? Alicia? No, I was just saying where Leisha is. Check your leashes, always check your gear. You know, if a wing leash breaks, you know, one flip and the wing is about 10 feet away from you, you know? So like two flips, three flips before you know it, it's going to be like 30 yards away from you. Make sure you check your leash. And, um, also communication is key because as you get up on foil, say you're with two people. Once you get up on foil and you're gone, uh, the conditions aren't always conducive for you to come back and talk story and coordinate and plan. So before you even get into water, kind of have a game plan, which your crew or your partners about where you guys are going to end, which direction you're heading and whatnot, communication and safety rule important. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And, and, and as well as, um, um, where was I going with this? Um, yes. Letting other people know, you know, like even others in the surf, when you do get out and start going to the surf, we don't need to be going through a super crowded lineup. I mean, we can just stay outside. Like, um, a lot of times on the agriculture here, we have miles of ways that we can catch to the area where the surfers are and we can kick out. And we just told them guys go, you guys, go ahead and we'll fly back out and just, and just enjoy, you know, and, um, the community right now, you know, winging is so new. Um, there are. Awesome people everybody's willing to help. Um, if you do have questions, reach out, you know, either on social media, on to your local break. Um, too, however, dude, don't feel, um, a shame of asking any questions, you know, any tips, as soon as you see somebody doing really cool stuff, they more than likely just being in Europe. Six months ago, eight months ago, you know, a year like when Wayne falling is not old. So you're going to ask a question and yeah, I'll go ahead and say, Hey, maybe you should try this, or you should try that. You know? Cause we, we were all there before, you know? Yeah. And it's like, it's kinda up to us to make the community the way we want it to be, you know, like. And like surfing is kind of a lot of times like surfers are so aggressive or like they kind of have to be to be able to get away, you know, and yeah. And wing falling. You don't, you don't really have, we don't need that really. Right. You can just have fun and Sharon and enjoy it together and not have to be like aggressive. And, um, like we can just share, wave and smile. Right. We don't have to get all mad at each other or something. So. But I was just thinking another tip. I kind of,  saying like, if, if your board ever ends up being upside down with the foil sticky, And your wing is close by like that's like emergency situation, especially if the board is upwind of your wing, just do whatever you can to flip that foil back underwater and away from your wing, because it happens so quickly that the thing just tips over it gets blown into your wing, and then you have a big hole in your wing and you're out of action for a few days and have to get up checks and so on. So that's, I think that happens to beginners, right? Yeah, it happened very quickly. Also. I also see people sometimes like having their board on the beach with the first sticking up and then they tie the leash, the wing leash to the top of the foil or something like that. And then the first Gus that comes it's like blows it over and w the foil falls into the wing or something like that. So just be very aware of your foil. And not falling onto your wing, you know, that cause that damages your wing very easily. Right? I think we've all. Yeah. Yeah. What was that from experience or was that from something you saw? Oh yeah, it never happened to me. Of course. I just saw other people doing that. Yeah. As Brian dicey knows. Yeah. All right. Any, any other last words to anyone? All right. Thank you. Thank you. And everything. Sorry. Caught you had something else to say? Yeah. I just want to say have fun. Be safe. Communicate. Uh, no, the wind directions respect the community. All right. Big tips. Alright, that's great. All right. Well thank you all for your time. And I know you have school tomorrow morning and we all probably have to work and stuff like that. It's free. It's like 10 o'clock at night. So thanks for joining me and thanks for everyone watching on YouTube and, uh, take care. I'll see you on the water. Aloha. Thank you. Thanks. So good. All right. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end. And I know some of you listened to it as a podcast and probably have listened to every single word, but those of you on YouTube, uh, if, if you watch it all the way to the end on YouTube, you're one of the elite 5% who watched the whole thing from start to end. So congratulations for that. And thanks for sticking around. Uh, so please give it a thumbs up if you liked it and, you know, leave your comments down below. And, uh, and thanks for the support, uh, for blue planet. Basically the show is sponsored by people like you, that support our business blue planet. So I always appreciate that. Um, we're keeping it free. I'm not charging anything or you don't have to make any donations or anything like that, but if you can support Buchanan next time you're buying some new foil equipment that's really appreciated. And that's what supports this show. So thank you and have a good one. See you on the water. Aloha.

Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show. On this show, I interview Wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and ask them in-depth questions about wing foil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, how they got into water sports, what inspires them and how they live their best life. As a visual learner, I'm adding visual content that you can watch right here on YouTube, but you can also listen to these long form interviews on the go as a podcast, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app. Today's interview is with none other than Armie Armstrong, the founder of Armstrong foils. It's amazing how he built a business in just a few years from a few prototypes to one of the biggest manufacturers in the world of foiling and a wing foiling equipment. We just got some of their new boards at our shop here in Honolulu. Really nice, Innovative features. And he talks about that in this interview also about growing up on a sailboat, learning how to walk basically on a sailboat, sailing around the world with his parents. So that's a really cool back story. I thought I also want to say a special thank you to our sponsors. This show is brought to you by people just like you, that support blue planet here in Honolulu. So next time you're shopping for new gear. Please check out blueplanetsurf.com. And I think you'll find that we have great quality, service and pricing, so you can't go wrong getting gear from blue planet. And of course also you're supporting content like this and making it possible. So thanks for everyone who supports their business. All right. Army Armstrong. Welcome to the blue planet show. Thanks so much for coming on. How are you doing today? Oh, awesome, man. Yeah, we're just about to go and test some prototype foil. As soon as this is finished, we're out on the water. So yeah, life is good. We were locked down and Zed for awhile recently, and it's all for a year and a half behind the rest of the world with the COVID thing. So we're going through it now. I don't know. It's crazy, but yeah, we were allowed back on the water. Yeah, a couple of months of that was pretty bad locked off the water. So now we're back into it. You weren't allowed to go even on the water at all during lockdown, you had to stay in your house. Basically. Yeah, it was pretty hardcore. And then even now, we're, I guess we're almost two and a half months into it, like a lot of businesses of open, so it's pretty hard for a lot of people. I'm just super lucky that that you guys in the states seem to be charging ahead and carrying on and Europe as well seem to be back to normal. So fingers crossed. We hit that way too. Yeah. Not really back to normal, but people are just tired of arranging their lives around COVID, and basically just like at some point you just have to learn to live with it. I guess that's the thing, but yeah, like last time we met was I guess like about three years ago, I think in Raglan maybe two years ago before the, before this whole thing. Yeah, that's right. When that was that your last international trip? Probably one, no, actually I went to New Zealand again, like a year later, which was in February, I think, February on 2009, 19. As the pandemic was already going on in China right before they stopped the travel international travel. So that was a good trip. But so now you're in Auckland. Yeah. Zeeland it's it's. Summer's just starting, you got nice weather over there. Yeah. It's just starting. And yeah, we're lucky we're at a lockdown and we're back in the water. And yeah, we're just getting through pretty exciting list of prototypes and, moving ahead, once they put in. Let's start in the beginning. Last time we talked to you, you mentioned, you just said that you grew up on a sailboat sailing around the world with your parents. So I don't want it to find out more about that. Can you tell us more about, how you grew up and how you got into water sports and, love for the ocean and all that kind of stuff. I was just really lucky that born into a sailing family. I think I was really lucky. Definitely had a lot of great adventures with my parents. I was conceived in Brazil, so my father was an architect in Brazil, and then they'd been planning, a sailing adventure with some friends of theirs who is also a Kiwi architect along with my father. And they went back well all back to the UK, made up there boredom. Fit it up. And I had two young families, so six kids total, three each side, and then the four adults. And they jumped on a 44 foot kitchen sound off around the world to the blue yonder. And so that was, I was six months old when we left the UK. And, we sat around for a couple of years, floating around the Pacific to learn, to walk on the boat and then, ended up in New Zealand after, pretty good salient venture. And then we were always sailing every, every chance my parents got to get out and about. And once we were in New Zealand. And yeah, just all of my childhood memories are, sailing places. So the trip that two year trip, you actually, do you remember much of that? When you, if you're six months old, you probably don't remember. I don't remember a lot, but I actually made a, I was when I was at school, I did a, like a many student DACO type thing on it, and there was lots of super eight footage and lots of slide slides and stuff. I put together a bit of a a story and interviewed everyone actually on video. So we've got that, which is pretty cool. So yeah, I remember it more through photos and stories. But it's interesting, like just learning to walk on the boat and that just being in the ocean for a lot of time, I know you can't, I have to get in the water weekly at least or else I just start going crazy. Yeah, that's that just is what it is. So that's interesting. Do you think that learning to walk on a boat helped you with having better balance or being used to being on, on, yeah, definitely for sailing and maybe for other sports too, because that just feeling the way the water's moving and being used to it. And I think that's the way with a lot of, the traditional navigators, they just grew up in that way of being on the water and fishing and stuff. And yeah, that's definitely something that I guess yeah, that they say that your brain gets pretty wide in the first, five to seven years. So I think all of those real early experiences, as I think with top surface, they get into that when they're really young, they have a, quite an advantage, I think. Yeah, for sure. That's interesting. So do you get seasick at all or you're never really got seasick. Yeah. That probably has something to do with the two that you're just used to. You said that I love it. I love, the rougher. It gets the more fun I love being out on the ocean, that's. Yeah. Cool. So what are your earliest memories of like being in the ocean or in the surf or like doing like kind of water, sports, like surfing or for me, it's really sailing. We did a little bit of playing around in the surf more body surfing, really. When I was young, we didn't really have surfboards. We used to just play in the surf, but we were more, more silent. We were off on styling and benches, that's, that was really, up until I went on my own adventures in my teens, I was just with my family. Going, sailing around New Zealand. And then later on in life, we did a lot of missions back out into the Pacific with dad and his friends, silent tool sorts of, interesting places. And then personally, for me, when I got right into whitewater kayaking, actually when I was in my teens, I was really influenced by a teacher at one of my schools who was a real whitewater, kayaking, fanatic. And yeah we try and really have, we didn't want what a slalom at team one, all of New Zealand titles for the whitewater slalom competitions, and got seriously into that trial and the New Zealand team. There were a couple of really good guys, so I never got into that team, but. Really dug it. And then we had ourselves off of waterfalls and in our late teens and early twenties and a couple of my good friends who have gone on to become, world-class kayakers. And then I got into, I got bitten by the wind surfing bug at university, so really transitioned, kayaking into wind surfing. And I was lucky enough to go wind surfing and Raglan. Cause I was at uni at Waikato doing a science degree and Ragland's, a short drive. And so yeah, we used to Skype off lectures when it was windy and go wind surfing. And that was great. And had a good friend near James court. Who's won an NZ, its best windsurfers. And he was at uni with me doing a science degree as well. And so we used to yeah. Spend a lot of time out in Raglan when surfing. That was really where I got into the wave side of things more than through surf. And this was like in the 1990s or around what time? 1990s. Yes. So I guess late, late eighties, I really got into windsurfing. And then at uni, 1990 to 95, we were probably windsurfing as much as uni scraped through my degree. So much time on the water. Yeah, that sounds very similar to my, my background too. I got into wind surfing and that's how I ended up being, coming to Hawaii and going to the city here and stuff. But and then what happened next? Like how did you transition from wind surfing to the other water sports that you do now? Yeah. So when say a thing and then got right into sup rotted the early days on a sale, we were on a sailing trip actually to tie. W we did a whole big Pacific mission and about 2005 or 2006 I'm with my parents, with my dad at the time. And we were meeting up with some friends of hers who had been doing a big multi-year circumnavigation of the globe. And we caught up with those guys in Tahiti. And we were, while we were inside Hadia, big south swell came or Southwest swell, and we went, okay let's go down and have a look at Chapo. And we had peddled out, not obviously known Adelaide, but he was peddling out on this giant. Must've been 11 plus foot sat gun before anyone else was even really doing it and caught a couple of waves at Chopra, and we were sitting in the channel watching I'm too scared to try and go surf it for sure. And yeah, I was just like, that is epic. That's just, he just peddled out from the beach. Like everyone else came out on boats. A couple of guys pedaled out from the beach, there are a couple of the local stations, but most guys were on boats and I just was super cool. He took his last wave and over the reef and paddled in and I'm dislike. Ah, that's, we've got to get into that. So it came back, there's no deer around and we just grabbed some old Wednesday and made some got, cause I was into kayaking. So it just fit with my kayaking history. So we just made a couple of pedals, started peddling around on them and we didn't really know what we were doing. And we caught a few waves here and there and was just, we're just having great fun paddling around on these things. And From there actually really took off as a sport. And then I got right into it and there was some events in Hawaii. The battle of the pedal Waikiki actually was was on. And I was like, okay, we're gonna go and have a go at this. And yeah, I had a blast like that. And it was yeah, for that one, I think they only had that one time, the Waikiki battle of the power. It only happened once, maybe a couple of times, maybe twice. Yeah. It was pretty cool. A lot of local prize our member battling car around that one, but he was only about 13. That was the last chance I got to battle with him after he was just killed everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I still remember a race where I beat Connor Baxter, but that was, I think he was like 12 or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So then sup really got me to Hawaii and then spent, I made a mission from about 2011. I think that was the battle of the pedal in 2011 Waikiki. I could be wrong, but check those dates and then. Yeah. Every year, since then just spent New Zealand new. Zealand's a fantastic place. Winter is a pretty long though. So yeah. Had a mission to try and get out of  for the winters for a couple of months in Hawaii, if I could, or, Samar or Fiji Corso is fantastic from New Zealand, much, much easier to get to, but I guess Hawaii is, the epicenter of the surf world. And there's a good reason for that. The conditions are amazing. The people are amazing and you just learn much faster with any of those, with any activity, really, if you're around the best in the world, you just learn faster, so it was just a learning experience for me and got right into it. And then through all that time, I got right into kite surfing as well. So the Wednesday thing transitioned into the kite surfing and yeah, so cutting and subbing. I was just doing that as much as I could. Funding it in any way possible. I was still working a bit in the film industry doing underwater photography in New Zealand and then doing odd jobs for cash when I was out and about. So that was your main income was photography and doing, yeah. So through that I'd done a bunch of paperwork with some various organizations, film schools and stuff, and ended up working in the New Zealand film industry, doing underwater camera work. And that was great fun because it suited me, we were in the water again and filming, but it still New Zealand film industry is really up and down and especially something as specific as water shooting, it's not really consistent work. So it was good. I managed to get lots of time to go off and do my through my passion, really, which. Yeah, get in the water paddling or cutting. Cool. Yeah, I remember you came by the sh our shop on ward avenue. I dunno, maybe six years ago or five or six years ago. And you had your first, or one of your first foil prototypes of the Armstrong full and you were showing it to me and stuff like that. But I think that was like, before you even started production on them or anything, you can't, that was actually the first batch out of the first production mold. Just, it was like a production sample and we were just getting ready. So yeah, we had bicycle. You were one of the fist people, actually we went to say and say, Hey, we got some spoils. You guys are gonna need bees. I was pretty impressed by the, like the whole design and stuff, like how the fuselage goes through the mass and stuff. It's pretty unique. At that time, I don't think anybody had anything similar. And then, but so you got into foiling through kiting, is that right? Or yeah, so we go into foiling through kiting basically quite foil racing and kite foiling has been around a little bit longer than some of the others cottage. The cottage took it up a little bit earlier. I think, really falling has been around for ages with initially with Mike Murphy and then rush Randall and lit and Dave Kalama and pick your brain are in a Robbie nation. All that crew, really took it on and Hawaii. Totally. To try and deal with the wind bump and all of that sort of cool history. And the Cod is took it on, a little bit, later, but earlier than, most of the other recent uptake anyway. And so we were doing a lot of cutting and cut for them was just the normal thing to do. And we just jumped on that and we were breaking everything we did. Funnily enough, late again, to knock and Reagan for the ultimate water man event. And I was actually doing some camera work on that for a promo that they did with led towing in, out on the points in Ragland. I was living in Ragland at the time and Daniel Kyoko, who then went on to win the first ultimate water man. He was driving the jet ski. I was on the back filming with late. And I think Terry Chung came down correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure. And he was telling with lead at some yeah. At Raglan and I would get. Really long wipes, like a couple of minutes long maybe. And we were like, okay we were cutting following at the time when we all like, actually, this is these guys. I know these guys have been doing it for a long time, but that was the first time we'd seen proper foiling and proper waves life. And it just blew all of us away. We were just like, wow, that's that looks like too much fun. We're going to have to do that. And so we got out on our kite foils and pretty much broke all of them doing that. So we were like, okay, that's that D is not, it's not going to work. So we're going to have to stop making R and D and that was it. Yeah. I think I remember seeing I'm going to, I'm going to screen share this video that I remember watching Yeah. So there was some, a bunch of helicopter footage. That's right. This was a promo for the ultimate water man and this, the water shots. So that one, and then there's a couple of other water shots later on. I shot them on the back of the ski with Daniel. So that's obviously the heli shot. And then there's one where led, comes past a man. That's actually a heli shot too, but then you can see on the jet ski. Yeah. That's me and Daniel. And that's one of our shots there. That's pretty epic. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, obviously a good Diane rags. It was no one out surfing. It was a bit too lumpy, this outsides. So yeah, lad was the first person to really get involved in, outsides properly, foiling rags. And for him, obviously this isn't necessarily massive surf, but it's still a pretty solid day. He's charging us to turn our member. He was like, so close to putting the foil out there. I know, in front of the lip, I've led sleds, a unique individual, as we all know. So trust him to really, open up our thoughts processes. So yeah, we were jumping in the water, filming the stuff, and this was the promo for the ultimate water man. Yeah. And his masses is that the stainless steel mask? This one's, I'm pretty sure it's an alloy rig. Very basically probably a Mike Murphy Tiba and with GTN, with. I dunno, lead would have built with someone in Hawaii, I don't know the full story of a rig. Except that yeah, we were just like, ah that's too much fun. We're going to have to, we're going to have to get into it. And then we did, we got onto it after that and broke everything we had. And so then we were like, okay, we just have to start making stuff. So you actually started with Cohen foiling out or cutting. And then we saw that and then we started towing because it just was like, mind-blowingly fun looking. We didn't realize at the time how hard it was. So we just got thrashed and broke all that kite gear. And out in the city, first of all, we started rebuilding the kite gear cause we broke it all and named, we were like, hang on a minute. The stuff we are, we've rebuilt some wings, we rebuilt some fuselages and some masks and we sit actually we've made it stiffer with made it stronger. It feels better to run. Let's actually make a whole of whole foil set. And then we're really lucky in New Zealand. We've got a lot of really smart boat designers and boat builders. And I had some connections in that area too. And so we just started making our own rigs and pretty much I hand-built our first foil wings, just with some templates that we made up a little bit like making a big fan, really. We just, hand-making a fin, we made some templates, we made some foil sections. We mapped it out on some paper and we translated that on some blocks of wood, we stuck all that together. And then we laminated it and tried it and went, okay, that worked and we wanted to make it a bit different. So we tried a different foil section, took the grind to it a few times until we had something that we thought actually worked pretty well. And then we scan that and then did some cat on it and that became our first. So that was the process. And in terms of the system development I was really interested through, spending a lot of time on the boat, on fittings that didn't didn't corrode. And titanium as a real top end material for not having galvanic corrosion, especially with cabin and it's light and strong, and it's just a, a really nice material and the ocean, because once the part is made, it doesn't really change. So I was really interested in using that technology and that led us down various rabbit holes to, and we ended up yeah. And basically you're the sister from the very beginning, you add that the design was the titanium shrouded with carbon fiber and in a mold or, and then so basically the basic design of your fuselage and the mass fitting and stuff, hasn't really changed. It's still the same as the original foil. You told me that. And that was where we spent a lot of time. We got some pretty good design advice at the time on some of the dimensions. The reason for the Hicks inside the round. We wanted round because I really think round on the fuselage is pretty important for not changing the flow when the fuselage goes through different angles. So the flow doesn't change, to the, around the fuselage, to the back wing. If you got a small square or rectangular fuselage, when you put it on an angle, it changes the flow around that saw. I was really interested in that. And if you look at the. Fish and bottom brackets on boats and keel bulbs and everything. Nothing squid, no one's making anything square fish. There's no square fish, really. So I was like, okay, let's go round. And then to fit inside around a hex as a really good shape, because you can put the two together and you get a similar thickness around the outside of it, which means when you do your layouts, you can wrap the fiber right around that. Which is, what we do in our molds. So the fibers come all the way down from the top of the mast wrap around the bottom bracket and then go back up, which is pretty tricky layout to do. But that's the key point to giving it that feeling and unlocking, locking in the feeling into the mask, which is yeah. What we've spent quite a lot of time developing that layup and we're happy with it and Hey, this. It's always a balance. You can make something stiffer, but then you're going to lose it, lose some fields. So there's that balance. And it depends a little bit on the conditions. If you're really going out in big waves, then yet there is something in a stiffer setup. And I think like you say, lead may well be using stainless or solid LOE master or something for the really big waves, but we're not really trying to make gear at this point for people to toe in it Mazur. And it's epic. Those guys have done it. They're BYOD mix level for sure. But what we're trying to do. Gifts make something that has a real nice surf feeling when you're doing a tune on a head highway, that's really the goal. And then obviously Wingdings come along and whinging it is, to me, it's like going back to windsurfing. It's awesome. It was a beautiful blend of windsurfing and cutting to me winging puts the two together and this way, and it brings foiling really to anyone that's the beauty of whinging because you're, you've got the balance with the wing, which is a lot like the windsurf rig, but you don't have the mask. So it's lighter and easier to handle. You don't have that pool issue. You haven't got the strings like the cot and it allows you to have that balance point on the foil. So really with winging, in decent when anyone can foil and that's where I think the future, isn't a, Hey, I'm not alone in that one. Yeah, for sure. And this is a wing filing show but and like for me when wing filing started, I was doing more standup foiling or, prone, foiling and stand up racing and stuff like that. But ever since I started wink, filing, that's almost all I do now. So how is it for you? Like how much time do you spend on a wing foil board versus other sports? Yeah. We still cut for the little bit because coding's a really good way to test gear because you're independent. You can go pretty fast and you can like quickly change gear and go back out and feel it wonderings pretty good tasting gear as well. And then we tow, I do quite a lot of towing into down one. Cause I think riding bumps down wind on bigger foil, especially when you're fishing with bigger foils is a great way to see how they turn. I'm really interested in foils trying to make foils that turn really. That combination of pump efficiency and turning so pull it towing into bumps down wind and yeah. We used to paddle and we still do pedal on a little bit on the really windy days with the SA. We don't have conditions in New Zealand really where you can chip in and ride the coast down one like an like in Hawaii which is awesome to see that some of the top surfers doing that as a cross training thing, I really influenced by Kyle I'd say, but yeah, the down wind for them, we do a little bit of that. But for testing gear really towing, you can't beat the amount of time you get on the foil, and so for me, the problem is with making gear and my past. Robbie who really drummed the send to me at the, after our first machine, we were accountable over the place, making all sorts of different things. You've got to just change one thing at a time, which, whether that be a tail angle a tail section, whatever it is, you have to keep everything else. The same, the board, the mass position, the front wing, the fuselage link, every other element you need to keep the same so that otherwise you don't really know what your progression is or what's happening. And so we keep a note of each rig we've tried and then change one thing at a time. And then you actually have an idea of what you've done and what is affecting things. And then you can make progress and it's, it does two things. I, it means you can't just dump to some whole mix level immediately. It's a progression. And the other thing is it takes quite a lot of time on the water, through that even coming into like most of my winging sessions, I'll even choose the location. Based on how easy it is to come in to change something out and go back out again. And sometimes they'll go positions just for fun, but oftentimes if there's a boat ramp nearby or, an easy place to come in and out, I'll choose that spot because then I can come, run with the tail at a certain angle, change it half a degree, go back out for half an hour, come back and change it. Half a degree, you go back out and, get that balance and feeling and hopefully make some progress. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I totally agree with that one changing one thing at a time. That's the way to do it, but I guess for the last two months, I always hard for you to test anything if you couldn't. We had, I think it was seven weeks of being allowed on the water. And yeah, really frustrating. But luckily Rob was out of the country. He was, he went to hood river and stuff. So he was doing basically a foil testing at that time. And we've got some great team riders now, too. So there's a lot of feedback now coming from team riders. That's, it's almost too much sometimes. It's great really though. There's a lot of Intel coming in, but the hottest thing with team rod is us asking him to change just one thing at a time. Cause they never do some are better than others, but everyone's got great opinions and that's really starting to feed into, what we're developing and how we're developing it. The new four geometry boards. Was really a passion project for me, but we got a lot of input from our team writers that really helped with that whole development process. Yeah, it's been really fun. I actually wanted to ask you. You went from being like a traveling videographer or, like on a shoestring budget to having like an international brand that's like worldwide and a lot of growth, obviously. And, as a business owner I know to grow, like that takes a lot of money and capital and good people and stuff like that. So can you talk a little bit about that process? Like how did you do it? How did you pull that off and how were you able to, finance it and how did you do that? Yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty long, interesting story. I guess really when it started happening, I got really lucky with, Rob Woodell coming on, he's a super smart guy. And I was getting into foiling at the same time with me and really saw a future in what we were doing. And he was, my initial kind of partner. And then we brought in Andrew McGregor and Bryce Rhodes who are, super keen surfers and, SOP athletes and also successful business people. So they really bought some key business knowledge to it. And through those early days I ended up doing some work for some surfboard factories in Asia. At the end of the sub game, I ended up going to Asia and helping doing some quality control. And also from my boat find did a bit of boat-building, on the side as well. Obviously I'd always been involved with my grandfather, built boats, been involved with that when you're dealing with boats, there's always something to do. And so there's always maintenance with boats, some kind of sanding or laminating or painting or whatever it may be. And so through that background and building a bunch of sat boards and stuff like that, I ended up going and working in a factory. And at the time I tried to sit up actually a sub-brand and I went to the last Pacific paddle games with the range of boards actually. But they were, I was probably behind the curve on that one, but what I did do through that process was ended up working in in some surfboard factories, helping them improve their cabin layout techniques. So yeah, I spent a bunch of time in Asia, in surfboard factories over a period of three years. And so when I put my friends together who were backing the full project with, my contacts with the surfboard factories, that's really where we were at grew from. So I was just lucky right place, right time. And we got into it at the right time. I think that video you play with lead was instrumental timing it, put us. We got right into it a little bit early. And I changed my focus from sup completely to foiling and that's just all we were trying to make. And yet to be honest, our first few foil boards were pretty wild and it was just an experimental, time. And we, they worked. But yeah, for sure they needed to be improved, but that was, the process that everyone was in at the time. And I was just lucky that we met, we got to make some, and we got to make some foils and we got them out on the market at a time when it was just taking off. And so from there we grew it and I'm just really lucky with a lot of people that we met along the way. Yeah. Nice. And then and then Rob widow basically helped you with, I interviewed him as well for that ozone interview, but it's able to help you finance it, or, how it's I know any girl fast, it's always, the money goes out faster than it comes in, right? Yeah. It's quite funny how much it costs to just keep the ball rolling. It's definitely a learning experience for me, but yeah. So Rob obviously invested at the early days Andrew and Bryce, who I've mentioned, they invested and yeah, we got the thing rolling. Started getting the product out there and started getting a bit of traction because there weren't a lot of good options that were easy. We've really, it's lucky not being a super product. I'm okay. But I'm Mo I'm very far from a pro, so I want to make stuff that's easy to ride. That's really been one of my focuses. And so that was, that fitted the market at the time. Cause everyone was learning and that, that was a good Bush and saw then scaling it up. That's the biggest issue. Like you say, that does cost a lot of money. So scaling up to distribution and we made some stuff in New Zealand and it was really hard to just shipping out of New Zealand is a real killer. The logistics from here are really is really tricky. And I had these contexts in the circle factories up there. And while I was up there, I actually met a really interesting guy on a beach in China, Austin, Kirk, who is a American guy. That's spent a lot of time doing business in Asia. And he had some friends who were, really top business guys and the cell phone pots industry. And we were at the time trying to scale up to meet the global demand that was taking off. And it's really tricky to understand those economics, these economies, those economies of scale, global distribution. It's a complicated game if you haven't got that system or process in place. And yeah, we basically spent a lot of time working with those guys to improve our manufacturing. And that really is where we got ourselves to the next level and we ended up effectively partnering with those guys on the supply chain side. So the manufacturing we had much better control of the materials we were using. The. The delivery schedules and the quality control. And so that was, that's been instrumental. It was I guess there's no one thing it's a whole lot of things all coming together and, I just feel really lucky that it came together at the time that it did and where we're able to stay afloat. Yeah, no, it's really impressive how quickly you grew the business, and to become one of the leading brands. Yeah. I don't know. I might hope maybe we're a leading brand. I hope we are. We definitely try hard to, do what we say we're doing and we're making the gear as best we can. We do spend a lot of money on materials. It's slightly crazy. I had a Aussie businessmen recently who we're, who has some distribution and all Aussie. He was like, you guys are crazy. You need to spend less money on your gear and, you'd have a bit of business case, but. To me, I dunno, where we're just sticking true to our original design theory. And we wanted to make gear with materials that were as good as we could afford to make it with. And yeah, we're, that's where we're not really compromising. So it's it's always a juggle and business. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But that's what Rob, Rob bill was saying that too, if you're really into the sport you're not that concerned about the price. It's more like you want to have the best equipment you can have. It's not. Yeah. That's your main concern is the quality of the equipment more than the cost or the price of it. Yeah. And there's definitely something that comes with Different materials. There's a fail. There's the way it lasts. There's the way it performs. There's a whole bunch of things. And so for us, whether it's boards, foils, client wings, any of it we're trying to use the best materials we can. And, it's a really interesting process. Especially when you scale up just, and in the current market to getting hold of materials. As that's where we got really lucky with our supply chain partners, because even just managing to maintain supply in the current global economy is really interesting. But challenging thing to do. And to be honest, if it was just me, yeah, it'd be, it wouldn't be working. So I've got really good partners and that's on the business. Yeah, that's the key to it is having the right people doing the right job. I guess there's a real psychology in life. And I try to, there's some inspir, inspiring character, I think will Smith, he's a great actor, but an interesting character. He talks a lot about, you've got to employ the people who are really talented at the things that. And that's what you need to do for the universe. You, your, you do what you're good at, and you employ people who are good at doing the things they are good at. And in the long run, it all works out better because people are doing, their passion and what they're good at. And yet you've got to spread everything out when you do that, but that's just, I think that's, to me how things work and that's how we've made it work anyway. Yeah. So what would you say is your job description that Armstrong foil is now? My job is basically I'm the lead product development. And then Rob basically is my main like advisor. He's pretty smart guy and he's been making products in this sort of game. I need to talk to Rob, from the hang-gliding days. A lot of wind design knowledge there. And then apart from. I've got, I'm the passion engine, where, trying to hit us in the right direction. And then we're filling out our team on all the other fronts logistically because that's, my forte is not global logistics at all, and it's still a challenge, but it's been really interesting. And I get involved, we have, open meetings and process on that, but we're, to be honest, we're finding our way to a certain extent as well, but we do have, Andrew's really in charge of the sales and business admin side of it. And then we've got a great inside account management sales team who are really on top of immediate communications, and that it's yeah. Having a global. Network means you've got to be on top of communications, 24 7. And at the time differences and stuff that it's hard to communicate with everybody live. Yeah, that's right. So you've got to, you gotta be able to have a T it's about the whole thing is it's a team. It's a team process and it's, yeah, it's really fun to be a paddle. Cool. So let's talk a little bit about your the equipment. When you went back to your website, your, so we just got a shipment at our shop of your new boards. So can you tell us a little bit about these new winks up boards? Yeah. So the forge geometry wing sat range I'd spend. A lot of time hanging out with the America's cup sailors. And obviously the America's cup was on in New Zealand last year. And I was just looking at how those guys set up their geometry of the boats. And, they put the, their main foils in the middle of the boat at the center of gravity. And I'm like those guys are pretty smart, guys. Why do they do that? Like, why is the foil in the center of gravity of the book? And there are a lot of reasons for that for basically efficiency of lifting and not labor ridging things up. And so we played with it a lot and we decided an actual fact. We want to give people the option of putting the foil a lot for the Ford and the board, because then you can have a board that feels like a much smaller board to ride, but it has more waterline length to get you up. And. Because we also want to ride, smaller, and smaller foils because they're faster and more responsive. And so if you move the foil further and the board and your body further on the board, you've got the feeling of a smaller board, but you got the water line length to get you going. And in the water line, link out the back end, we got rid of the the cutaway on the back of the board because we just want to maximize the board waterline linked to get you up and going as, as early as possible. So everything about the house shape was about getting up and going with the laced energy so that people could ride effectively a smaller board and a smaller failing board. Then we, we did a bunch of other things. We might've really deep cockpit, which does come from a lot from this. Rice board design. There's a drain, which is also the handle both sides. And the reason we recessed the cockpit is that it's got quite a nice feeling. There is a slight convicts in the middle, and then it goes up to the, the rails and the closer you are to the foil, the more responsive everything is. The board thickness is just like adding a longer mask effectively to your foil. So dropping that recess means it brings you closer to the foil and has a really nice, more direct feel to the foil. But then you need some volume somewhere. So we have these, high sided rails. That's just about it. And then we got a pretty decent nose kick nose kicked Mike, Murphy's doing some work with us on the white foil market and all of those skis from the sit down guys, they all have massive nose rocker, right? And those guys are landing jumps all the time. And it's just way more forgiving if you've got a bit more nose rocker and a slightly wider nose, which is why we went to the chisel nose so that it's more forgiving for, plannings. And then the final thing really with the shaping elements is that wider nose allows you to really straighten all the lines on the boards. So the rails and the Chinese are really straight and we just felt that help with the board accelerating off the water surface. So what size board do you ride? Mostly? I'm lucky. I have three boards and my vans depends on the day. If the wind's light I'll ride the 88 liter, I'm 90 kgs. So I'll read the 88 liter as my light when board and I can trot around on that pretty much in no wind I'm with the five and a half or a six and a half and get going at the slightest gas cause you're already standing and we do get a lot of shifty light, wind days, especially in the summer here. So that's great for testing the bigger gear. And then obviously if I'm stopping, I'll use a bigger body as a hundred liter board, if I'm stepping. So I'm Mani kgs. I'm not, I used to be better at stopping. I used to be able to sit pedal assist was the same volume as my weight, but now I go up 10, 10 liters. So I ride them on a nine liter board when I'm, if I'm stopping. Yeah, sorry. That's what it's going to be four boards, but the sup doesn't isn't in the van a lot, these days, mostly it's the wind kit. Then for the NFL, if you want a lot, when boat that you can stop. Yeah. You need to go a few liters over your weight, probably. And then my all rounders, the 50 liter, the 50 or the 60, I really liked the 60 as well, but I'm using the 50 at the moment because I've got my stats pretty doll on that. I need about 12 minutes. I can get going on the 50 liters here to have that photo there. That's the 50 liter. That was a lot. That was a classic station actually on Malik. Yeah, we had a really fun, it was the Mo a lot Brightwell not the main waver Elia, cause the surface we sell over there, but the surface are all like go away. And so we're like, yeah. Okay. We're back to the break wall. And we probably would've got munched anyways, but we read off for when they're right. Yeah. Straight off shore. Yeah. It was super fun station. And that's the beauty with winging. You can ride off shore like offshore sessions. I've had such great officers say you have to be a little bit careful that you, Alicia is really well set up and you got a good board leash, a good kite leash. But if there's some good waves you can really off shore sessions are so fun with winging and that's something that we never did with kiting. And even when surfing Dade off shore is tricky about what the wing you can just fully deep power it and ride straight up when. But you're getting back to the board choices set in the 50 liters, my old round at the moment I need 12 knots or more. And then if it's proper windy, I like the 34 liter four, five. And that's because it's really nice to jump. It's just, smaller and more nimble in the air. But you need proper winds. So if it's 18 knots plus, and really good wind, then I'll ride the four or five. Okay, cool. Talk a little bit about the handle. This is pretty unique that I think you're the only ones making a handle that goes all the way through the board. Yeah. So no idea what that was. Yes. So having a handled top and bottom was obviously a good thing and. To save, right? Like traditional handles are, they definitely add white to a board and we had this really deep recess and I'd played with a lot of rice sups with Vince and the cockpit. And I actually had my race. I should dig out the photo for you. At some point, I made a rice up for the 2018 Molokai to Oahu, which was the first foil downwind, the vent on the Molokai. And that one had a really deep cockpit and it had Vince as well. And so I, one of the veins and the deep cockpit board, and then it just came together. We make the water drain a handle. So that goes all the way through. So you got your handle top and bottom and. For the cockpit and obviously the cockpit joins out the back as well, but you just want to make sure that the water completely clear. So if you've got such a big cock, but it makes sense to have an event. So the handle on the bottom is a little bit further back than on the deck. Is that correct? Yeah, it's on an angle. So the handles on an angle the reason for that is to help with water evacuation and also reduce the drag on the, so the I maybe it's pretty minor, but at the, on the bottom, because the handles on an angle, it's not a square surface hitting the water. It's actually an angled surface at the back of the handle. So whether that makes any difference, I don't know. It's a pretty tiny detail. You ever get water splashing up out of the board when you're like on the surface of it's funny, even landing really big jumps. If you get a video shot of it. Yeah. When you bouncing the board off, the water comes through there, but you don't notice that I've never, I've landed pretty big jumps on that board and I've never noticed the water splashing up and hitting me in the face. Interesting. So let's talk a little bit about your the wing. Oh, I guess the wing surf and then I guess these are for winging and surfing then. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So the smaller boards are more assist shape. There's something you can paddle in, or like I was saying a wing the 34 and, as smaller team riders cache Breezhaler and Tatiana grant now when, you know the 4 0 27 liter board Skyrim or w SIF pedals in the four. Oh. And he's a pretty big guy, but he's a great surfer and he can obviously serve the 27 liter board. I don't see for board that low volume. So if I'm paddling in I'll actually use the 14 I'm at 39 liters. Cause I'm not a great SIF Wheeler. I'm not a great surfer. I never really grew up surfing, so I need all the help I can get. And the four has got way more paddle, but yeah, that those photos that'll be the four of Mateo and Tatiana are on there. Yeah, so they've got a foot strap option, so you can wing him with straps. But they're also really good for SIF falling on towed air and yeah, they're basically a good all around board. Nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. Thanks for that. little rundown on your boards. And then let's talk about your the foils. I guess you just released a new foil, actually. Let me, wait, let me pull that up for you have two new foils that are just got released recently. So you want to tell us a little bit about these two new designs? Yeah, so we're just expanding the highest big foil range is actually going to be, six foils in that range. Pretty exciting too, to fill out the range and we've done it step by step because every saw, different sizes actually need a slightly different detail. And some of those details are pretty important. Geometric or aerodynamic twist is got to be adjusted per size. And so that's a pretty big tuning element. And like we got back to, changing one thing at a time. It takes quite a long time to, to tune in those changes. And so you have to make one, try it a few times, compare it to the other one, go backwards and forth, and then, adjusted again and, trying to get something that has that, the ultimate pump and glide, and you can turn like those are the. The big elements. And so we're really stoked with the way out. Our bigger foils will tend, we can, you can get on a wave and you can actually, throw them around. And ultimately the ha range is is a high performance wing range, but then rippers like Mateo and stuff like he's on the 7 25 and that photo that you're the white gods, smaller guys waking that be doing crazy things on those, because they're just so much faster and you can pump from miles and that sort of stuff. So that the there ultimately, or the range, it's a pretty similar feeling to the size. And it depends on your body size a lot. So that's why we've got the range. Obviously, once you get down to the smaller foils that we will be releasing very soon, the 5 25 and the massive one, the 1525. That's all about expanding the range for the different size of riders. So the 5 25, it's going to be more caught foil really but the 7 25 smaller rippers and mine, 25 average size rippers, 1125 larger grippers in the 1325. And the 1525 are like your light wind performance foils or, bigger rappers who want to, get out there and pump around or down window, whatever. So when you downwind a foil, which for the use, which I'm mostly on the 1125 and 90 kgs, but I'm okay at keeping it up to speed. I find the 9 25 is too small for me actually. But if you're a lighter guy, 1125 is going to be too big. But that's, if you're talking. Good guys who have got some pretty good skill. If you're in really small bumps though, then I are using right now, I'm using the 1325. If it's small and I'm telling him, downwind but if it's windy enough to peddle up on a set, then I can run the 1125. Cause that's on the go when it's howling. So yeah, down one thing down, one thing, an interesting, it has a question for you. How do you see down winning? Cause it's an interesting one for me. Like I got into it, like we were down winning the Nepali 2017 under the Nepali rice downwind on a foil. And then the year later was the  2016. I went to the goal. Before anyone had even tried to do a Dauman rice on a foreign car was down winning obviously. And in Maui and stuff, I went, I did the Gorge dam and pedal challenge on the foil, came about mid fleet. Cause the first half was all good. And in the second half around the island, I lost the foil and paddled a 10 foot board with the foil on it, pretty slowly. But yeah. Where do you see downwind falling? I don't know. It's epic fun and I still do it towing in, I don't do a lot of it paddling anymore and I, you do see some of the good guys chipping in and doing down windows in Hawaii, but I don't know where you see downwind and going. For me personally, I really got into for a while, like we were launching us by Portlock China walls and then just going to either Kahala or to, to all the way to Waikiki on know, stand up foiling and kinda, we're getting it, but then the wings came out and then we just it was like so much easier to use a wing and, that's how we started winning is just going on downwinders instead of a paddle, you take the wing, and then it's just easier to get up on the foil and easy to stay on the foil. And yeah, so I actually stopped doing the downwinders. A lot of guys here on Oahu, do the downwind, like the chipping in the app from also lot of guys go from just like the, from diamond head to Waikiki or whatever, where if you fall in, then you just have to paddle in and catch another way of, You don't go too far out, out of this falls and that, yeah, and they just like tiny surf foil boards and really making it look fun. But I haven't really gotten into that myself and this, it just seems like a lot of work if you fall in especially if, if you do a longer run and you start at China walls, if you fall in and you got like a two hour pallets again to get back. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. I think some guys are doing that. I don't know. Hey, it's great training if you're a pro athlete. Yeah. So now it's an issue. It'll be interesting to see how it develops. I think what about the downwind suck foiling? Are you seeing a lot of guys doing that still or is that type it off a bit? So I, I think same thing and there's this less people doing it since the advent of wind foiling. And or even that many people doing it to start with, just cause it's so challenging, but I think with the foils getting more efficient. It being easier to get up on foil at I think, maybe it will change and I, I should get back into too, but I just, yeah, when it's windy, I need to get into it too, after too much lockdown, too much locked down cake. But what I'm excited about is this wing foiling and riding waves on the wing photo board too, and dislike doing those long carving turns and stuff like to me, that's super fun and jumping. Yeah. And I guess that's the thing with winging, it's taken over because like you say, it's so easy to get in and out and you just get so much foil time. It's maximum bang for buck and yeah, it has it's 80%, 80% of what I do now is on a wink for sure. And it's just the user-friendliness of wings. Kiting, I've cutting, always has required, a lot of beach space to set up and cuttings is still a great sport in the right conditions. Like howling onshore Cotting is still if it, but I don't know, you just can get out with the wing and it's so user-friendly in locations where you just can't go, with traditional cutting or even windsurfing gear and date off shores, and it's got more bottoming than windsurfing. Wednesday. A thing is great when it's also howling, but in lighter wind, you can get going with the foil and the wing and really be tapping into waves that no one's writing. Yeah, that's true. Like we can foil wing file and much lighter conditions. Our, wind surfers could go out to, but they're not barely moving. They, it takes them forever to get back out, to catch the next. Yeah, I know we were just like flying back and forth. So let's talk a little bit about the wings I'm like your wing development and stuff like that. So can you talk a little bit about what, what the view on and the changes you made to the V2 and so on? Yeah, sure. So basically V1 I just wanted maximum power out of the wing. And so we really went for lodge, diameter, leading edge, and a really deep section which does give you a lot of bottom end power. And that rigidity that you get from the larger diameter tubes really helps with, the bottom in juice of the wing. And to me, I really liked, driving the 10 50 to eight 50, the nine to five, and now the 700. With the Lang. And so you need that bottom in juice to get going on a smaller board out of the hole. So that's really what informed the main shape parameters of the wing, which really is large tubes. And then we've got a tight leech, really tight leech, which means we have to keep that lodge diamond are going quite close to the tips because that gives that sail, that real grunt, that real low and grunty feeling. And there's two sides to that. One is just that simple, low in grant to get you out of the hole on the smaller boredom foil. But it also means you can ride a half size or even a size down from most other wings. I ride the four or five when most people are riding a five or a five and a half, or even a six sometimes, and the five hour, five and a half hours as a guarantee, when it makes like a six or a six and a half, most of the guys bought it has a slightly more compact span for that size because it's got the really deep profile. So there's a plus and minus with every design choice you make. But that deep profile really gives them a lot of bottom end. And that's the, I guess the biggest thing that people don't quite realize with our wings is that you need to ride, at least half a meter down on what you think. So if you're thinking of five let's at four and a half, if you're thinking six sets are five and a half really. And the three and a half, we use that quite a lot, down to 18 knots. And that's, it's more really the grunt of a, for. Yeah. So now the thing we did is we extended our range. We've got the two and a half and the six and a half, and the vetoes we improved the handles the profile is not quite as deep. So we changed the profile is not quite as deep as the V1, so it has a bit more top end. And it, it floats a bit, bit more nicely and we've beefed up all the reinforcements basically on the V2. It's is it the beef that beliefs you've got a photo on the screen right now there we've got an extra butter webbing that ties right back to the Strat because I was in the surf and rip the leading edge out of a couple of wings. I'm getting wrangled in the surf. High of reality is if you get red dot on the SIF, something right. That's just life. Trying to try to beef up these things, the handles are all way grunts here and stiffer on the vatos. Yeah. That's, those are the main things. Yeah. If I can make a comment, like for this seam right here underneath the handle, I had a little cut on my finger and they kept scratching. Like when I got back winded or like pumping or whatever, I would always get scratched by the seam, this kind of a sharp scene right there. So maybe you should move that somewhere else. Yeah, no, we could for another gram, what I've found with those, because they are handles are rigid and they're off the wing. I find I don't hit the straw with my hand. And that's, the ha we spent a lot of time, those handles, I spent a ton of time on those handles. And yeah, there are some other, wind guys out there doing a very similar handle. Now I say pulled a pot, what we were doing and did a similar thing because that stiffer handle with a slightly bigger ice To me, it puts your hand and we've got, so the front hand Zillow, they tell that you might not realize a front handles have a bigger rock and the rear handles have a slightly smaller act and that's to help give the wing a little bit more angle of attack and your hands. So you're not, it balances out your arm links. You don't have to pull them with your back arms so much. And I found that didn't that put my hands off the stress, so they weren't heading the stress, but yeah, for sure. Some sames, if you're, if you hit your fingers on a same, then yet it might graze your fingers. Yeah. But one thing that, like you mentioned that your, their frame is really stiff. So that's something I really like about the ailing is that it's one of the things I really don't like about some wings that Ben right in the middle, right here with a strut connects to the leading edge when it's not enough right there. It just tends to like, when you get, when you hit it gusta the whole wing. Yeah, there's two things there. What you can see with that picture. You've got up right now. There, there isn't a ton of dihedral in the middle and that's because our whole wing is designed through actually, when it loads up at you get a bit more dihedral in there naturally, and all of the panels are all Kat and shaped so that when it's loaded, the airframe is really good. And what you'll find is a lot of wings when they load up, they fold in the middle and you get a lot of crises in the canopy. So our canopy is all set up so that when it's loaded in it, it takes basically, around about 80 kgs of load, pulling someone out of the water. That's when the canopy is actually set to its perfect shape. And that's where you get that real pole and drive. When it's, when you've got to go. With some load in it when it's completely unloaded yet, doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have that same perfect shape. So it is, it's a balance and that's, we're really trying to, but two things, I'm money kgs and I like a lot of grunt out of the whole to get going. And I like to jump, so I want something when you jump, when you pull on it, when you're coming down from a jump, but it really holds you and you can land your jumps. A lot of other wins. I find don't have a lot of pop and when you're coming down, they just banned and you haven't got anything. You just crash into the water. Pretty hard. So yeah, a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah. I find that too, trying to get some, trying to get some grunt into it. And it is a beauty with the inflatable that you can go, large diameter and a lot of that was informed from big, big cut design. So yeah, that's, we're really trying to get going in, on smaller boards with smaller fours, but also I like going out and strong winds. So I really like how are, the three and a half in the four and a half and the two and a half as well when it's hailing perform when it's really windy, because the thing just feels they really come alive. Our wings when it's, when you've got good wind. And, th there may be some lighter wings out there that are bitter and really light when conditions, but I prefer to have some juice when it's windy. Okay. Cool. We were going pretty long now, but I did want to ask you this question that I always ask everyone is especially during the pandemic, like you were shut down, you said for the last two months and couldn't get on the water. So when you're having a rough day, what do you do to stay positive or keep your mind in the right place, which is a tricky one. If I'm not getting in the water, I do go slightly crazy. Luckily I've got an awesome lady at the moment and a young Nipper who's three. So that definitely keeps me engaged. So yeah, it's, I guess it's family time now, I've, I've grown up. I've definitely had some times early on where I was, a little bit, more crazy and probably. As a typical, New Zealand there we used to drink too much for sure. But not nowadays, I'm all full out. We don't, I don't drink at all. And where yeah, family time, really for me, is it, and yet going for nice hike outside somewhere until the top of a ma among the top of the mountain. That's that's a great thing to do with the family and we'll go to the beach for sunset have a picnic on the beach somewhere. That's great as well. We could still do that during the lock down, at least as he said to stay away from everyone else, but you could go on the beach and you can go, yeah, you can go to the beach as long as it was within something like a 5k radius of where you lived something like that. If you didn't live near a beach within their bad life, it's funny. Cause you're in Hawaii. It was the opposite during our set down in the beach. You were not allowed to go on the beach, but you were allowed to go across the beach to go into the water and you're allowed to go in the water. Which I guess makes sense, but I guess it's cause cause our governor is a surfer too, so probably that's why he has to go in the water still. We got it. We've got to get out prime minister, wind foiling guy, that mission for the summit. Yeah I don't know how the, all the rules work. There's some pretty conflicting ones and it's different everywhere. I dunno everyone has their own take on it. I dunno. Any answers that's for sure. Yeah. So yeah. So you mentioned you totally stopped drinking alcohol no more. You're like totally. Yep. That's right. That's right. Actually, Kenny mark had got me inspired. He's an inspirational water man on Hawaii and we were there in 2018, I think with Brian Finch on wahoo doing a bit of a photo-shoot when we released the CF 1200 and. We were there loud. Can you, Micah was trying to foils and he's just such an inspirational character. He's a top go for brighter, but more than that, he's just the top legendary all around water man. Really? And yeah, he was telling me how he's, he's really, I think he was 20 something plus years just totally. Sobering and on it. And he's such an inspiration. I don't know quite how old he is. He wears his age very well, but he's you wait, he was, I don't know how old, but quite a bit older than me and ripping white hat or, and I'm like, okay, yep. Time to get real. So that was kinda, that was co-op I'm really thankful to him for some inspiration there. For sure. So would you say that foiling is like an addiction a little bit like, like a drug or definitely but a good addiction because it gets you outside. It's healthy. It's good for fitness. Mon will be great for your bank balance, but Hey, you can't take that stuff with you. And it is for using and really, it's just such a beautiful sensation flying across the water and it is addicting, but it's addicting for all the right. Okay. Yep, exactly. Do you, like when you get up in the morning, do you have a certain routine, certain things that you do or at the moment? Yeah, changing nappies or getting them ready for the day. And then usually, unfortunately these days it's checking a bunch of emails. It takes a couple of hours which isn't great. And then I usually try and throw some stretches in there in between, and then you look at the wind and try and get out through some testing or it depends what's going on some days it can be just sitting on the computer all day long these days, which isn't ideal, but that's the reality. Yeah. Yeah. Luckily today though, there's some brains. Brand new one. Oh yeah. So that's exciting. So you can go on the water right from your backyard there, huh? Yeah. I Maybe, I don't know if the internet will stay on, I'll drag this thing over here and have a look. See if you can see. Yeah, so then beautiful. Yep. And this is Auckland you're in Oakland, and Oakland city. So yeah. Super lucky. This was a property actually. My parents bought in the 70, so yeah. Pretty lucky to be able to hang out here and yeah, we had to get out, go sailing, go winging or go sailing as well. Yeah. Yeah. We still do a little bit of sailing out of here. I'm going to try and round that my grandfather built. That's just more out of. And yeah, we can't complain. Life is definitely good. When we're allowed to get on the water, it's hot. We don't get locked down again. I think we're going to be okay now, but I don't know it's yeah. Who knows? I'm not going to predict anything on that. Like for me, sometimes I have a really good session and everything like clicks and everything's working perfectly well. And then another time I'll just get frustrated and I keep falling in, or I just make stupid mistakes and stuff like that. And it's just not, it doesn't, I don't get into that zone. So is, does that happen to you and do you have any tricks for changing from, like going from not being in the zone to getting into that where everything. Yeah. I Some days you just have a bad buyer them day, but generally I find I try and do a, like a, I do a li

Aloha friends is Robert Stehlik. Thank you for tuning into another episode of the blue planet show.  on the blue planet show. I interview Wingfoil athletes, designers and thought leaders. And I asked them questions, not just about wing foil equipment and technique, but I'm also trying to get to know them a little bit better, their background, what inspires them and how they live their best life. You can watch this show on YouTube for visual content, or you can also listen to it as a podcast on the go to search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast. I haven't come out with a new blue planet show for awhile. It's cause I've been super busy. You might've heard that. We took over a new shop in Haleiwa on Oahu's north shore, formerly known as tropical rush. We just opened there and I've been super busy, getting everything set up. It's really exciting, but it also, it takes a lot of time. So I haven't had as much time for the YouTube channel and the blue planet show, but I've been waiting for a long time for Alex  to come onto the show and he finally had some time to do it. So I got a great interview with him. Alex is nutty about wing foiling. He's coming out with GoFoil Wing foil boards and wings. And of course he plays such an important role in the development of the sport. He basically invented the foil that allowed Kai Lenny to do downwinders on a big long board. And basically kick-started this whole sport of foiling in the surf and now with wings. So thank you for that, Alex. And without further ado, this is the interview with Alex. All right, Alex Aguera. Thank you so much for joining me on the blue planet show. So how are you doing today? Doing great early in the morning, over here. How are you doing Robert? I'm good. Yeah. So I'm on here on a Oahu. You're on Maui, nine o'clock on a Wednesday. So yeah. So tell us, let's start a little bit with your background. Where did you grow up and how did he get into water sports and like early childhood to start from the very beginning? For getting into water sports, it started when I was let's see about 14. We went on a family vacation. I grew up in Clearwater, Florida, by the way. And. We went on a family vacation to the Virgin islands, British Virgin islands, and we're going to be on a sailboat and, do the bareboat charters where you travel around to each of the islands. And it's, it was just a fun, two week trip in the, in a place where we'd never been in places that were super clear water like that crazy, it was just fantastic. But anyway, the captain of our boat, we had hired a captain who would sail us around to the, for the first week. And then we were on our own. The second week, the the guy would put this wind surfer in the water at this one place where we first started called Soper Sol and Tortola. Any of, they would start sailing around with him and his other captain, buddy friend, on this funny looking sailing craft that, ended up being one of the original. Baja style windsurfers. So this would be for the original windsurfer was some of the first boards that oil swipes, or it may, and it looked like a big, giant, long board made out of a fiberglass. But anyway, when we got back to Florida after the chip, my dad wanted to check this out as a possible, get the kids doing this. Cause we were riding motorcycles and stuff at the time you wanted to get us off of motorcycles. So he calls up Hoyle Sweitzer, which was windsurfing international or whatever. They called themselves. At that time, this was really early. This is like 1975. And oil tells him, he goes, Hey, I'll sell you six of them and make you a dealer, so it was like, okay, we were the first dealer and in Florida and it all started from there. We started wind surfing right in 1975. And that's how I got into all these other sports that have evolved since then. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Foil Schweitzer is Zane Schweitzer's grandfather who basically invented the sport and had the patent and everything. Yeah. So your dad became the first either the first wind surf dealer in Florida. Yeah. Like district nine or whatever, what are they? I can't remember fleet nine or something, the, for the ninth, one in the United States. So that's when the books were still made out of wood and stuff like that. And the bowl we're still out of wood. There was a daggerboard was still out of wood. We hadn't progressed to, a composite looking white daggerboard yet. And we hadn't invented harnesses yet foot straps or anything. Okay. And then, okay. And then what happened next? After that, we Pursue to get better and better at wind surfing. And my dad started to be the distributor for the Southeast United States. And we were really in the winter and our whole life changed from, he was working at Honeywell, which is one of the firms down there in Florida. He was a engineer. And then he switched over to just going to be wind surfing. We're going to go all in, into this wind surfing thing. So from there, we add a whole bunch of people in Florida that we were the original Florida wind surfing crew. We called ourselves the fearless flying Floridians there for a couple of years. And it was a real close crew there in the Clearwater Sarasota area that we always raced against each other. And we just got better and better. And then pretty soon we were doing well in the national and world championships. Awesome. And then. How old were you when you did that kind of the racing and your first world championship? I guess? My first national championship was the following year. What Hoyle used to do back then was we would do these big district championships. There was like maybe five or six throughout United States and whoever had won their district championship would get a free trip to the nationals. So the nationals then following year in 76, I'm 15 years old, a win, a free airfare to Berkeley, California, where we're going to do the nationals. And I traded it in for money to buy a bus ticket and pay for my hotel when I'm over there. So just imagine you're 15 years old, you're traveling in a Greyhound bus, cross country. Get over there, you rent your own wind surfer back then they would have, rental packages where you just come in, rent your own gear and then raise. So at 15, that was quite an experience, to have my parents to be able to let me go, all the way across the country and do that all by yourself was, looking back at it now back then, seem oh, that's okay. I can do this. We'll look back at it. Now. I was like, God, I would never put my kids through that. But that was a fantastic Regata because. What happened was, so it was 76. We're at Berkeley. We had a lot of wind and stuff, but as first time I get to meet Mike waltz and Matt Sweitzer, who were like the gurus back then of windshield, because they had a thing called the windsurfing news, which was like a little paper back, like a magazine, the early wind surfing magazine was a paperback called wind surfing news. And it was always the swipe tours and like waltz and this and that. So we get over there, meet Matt and Mike can win or goes for his first championship with all the boys. And Robbie Nash does his first championship. All the boys, he, so little 12 year old blonde kid comes in from Kailua. So it was like, all of us got together for the first time at that time. And he was Robbie Nash is two years younger than you about, okay, so you were 14 and then there's someone even younger than you showing up. Yeah. Yeah, that was, how did you do in that? Oh, I got beat up. It was blowing really hard. And in Florida where I learned, I was just learning to race around and, barely get planing kind of conditions, which we have in Florida coming up to that summertime, you get to Berkeley, it's blowing 20 to 20 fives, sometimes gusting 30 and one of the races. And I don't think I got across the starting line. I got beat up. I was just rag dolling. Cause you only had one, one sail and it was pretty big. I probably weighed 125 pounds at the time. And I remember there was these divas, these sisters, the SWAT tech sisters. There was Susie and Martha and The girls just beat up on me. I was getting whooped up on by girls mad. It was like, oh, bad. It was, I was humbled when I went there, but watching some of the stuff that was just then evolving because Robbie had come over and he started doing this railroad thing, it's the first time any of us see a rail ride. And I was like, oh my God, what is that kid doing? Who is that kid? And then by the time, the week it ended max White's here. And I think Mike had picked it up and Ken were all doing railroads by the end of the week. They had figured it out. But when you first saw that, I was like, what the heck? That's something new. And then we did one of the, I think it was, could have been the very first freestyle event there. And. The guide who Dennis Davidson, who was one of the original Kailua windsurfers was putting a little teeny fin on his board. He was doing these super fast tax and stuff. And we were like, wow. And he ended up winning the very first freestyle. Oh. And then again, so that's awesome. And so then how did that progress it, you became a professional windsurfer, right? Yeah. That that was many years later in about 1980, started getting paid to do wind surfing races by wind surfing international and oil spikes or, and we would go over to Maui for the first time. We were going to do the Pan-Am world cup was a real big race. It was for high wind and it was in Kailua. And the first year I didn't go to, it was in 79. There wasn't any wind. So they had to race in Waikiki. The next year, oil flies us out. I spend six weeks on Maui practicing with Mike waltz. He had told me, Hey, you gotta come over here and see this place. If it blows all the time, he had just discovered Okinawa, within the last six months. And he goes, there's nobody around the wind's blowing all the time. There's waves. So my brother and I went over there and hung out with Mike for about six weeks. Then we went to Kailua to do the first real pan Emmerich's. It was blowing hard and it's like the windiest day you've ever been in Kailua now is what we experienced for a whole. And we were like, oh my God, this place is gnarly. We were scared to death coming from Florida and seeing that kind of stuff. And that was one of the very first, big, high wind regattas and wind surfing history. Wow. Cool. And you said your dad was an engineer at Honeywell. So did you ever get any like formal education as an engineer or any kind of like that kind of thing? Or is it, are you just all self-taught on the side? Yeah, on that side, it's been mostly self-taught. I went to, some business classes in community college after I got out of high school, but I moved over to Maui after that 1980 trip. I was like, oh, I'm selling everything. I'm moving to Maui. As soon as I can. It took me about a year and a half to be able to pull it off. Then I moved back in 1982 to become a professional. Nice. Yeah. And then, so how was that getting started on Maui in the eighties? That was something, it was great. We were, I don't know if Paya very well, but back then there was, it was hardly anybody in pyuria. There's no traffic light. We rented a place. It's right next to where mana foods is now, back then, there wasn't any model foods yet, but we rented a Quonset hut there. That is where they still store some of their, use it for storage of some of the stuff that the store. But anyway, there was at some time, six of us staying in this Quonset hut for 250 bucks a month rent. So we're all paying like 40 bucks a month rent and living in Maui, nobody around we're going to hokey every day and just having a blast, nobody around on the road, everybody you saw on the road was a windsurfer. You knew everybody. It's like now it's all tourist going by. Yeah. Molly has changed a lot. I lived there in the nineties or late eighties and early nineties. I lived in Peggy too, like really close over there. So I remember those days we lived in a basement apartment, which is super cheap, but yeah. And then driving old Molly cruisers rusted out cars, all that. And then, and then at that time, when surfing was developing really rapidly and changing and stuff. And did you start making equipment back then already? Or how did that, how did you get into business that business? I used to, I was sponsored by high-tech surf sports and Craig Masonville, who was the original guy for high-tech used to shape all of my boards. And we were riding the old asymmetrical, wind surfing boards that we used to ride at hook. I want a couple of the big contests that hook keep a riding those. And then I was always on the pro world tour for wind surfing. And eventually it was hard to get the boards that you wanted, because I had to start working for my French guys Tega and they were making me boards and then Craig was making me boards and it was hard to get boards on time sometimes through the high-tech factory. And I said, oh the heck with this, I'm going to try and start building boards myself. So in 1989 was probably the first time I was racing on one of my own boards. I remember racing in the Gorge and doing really well on that. And at the high-tech surf summer series I won a couple races on my own board and I was all proud. I was like, oh yeah, I might be able to do this. So that's how long ago I started. Yeah. Nice. So those are, slalom racing boards is, were your first boards you built? I got the first boys were slalom racing boards. The way boards is a little bit more technical cause it's easier to break those. So the first law and boards, I didn't have any sandwich on them. They were just covered with carbon and I had some elaborate process for stretching the cloth over it and wetting it all out and keeping the rock or shape, and then learn how to do vacuum bagging and sandwich construction after that. Yeah, I was working for hunt Hawaii in those days and he, we were, he was still building boards with using polyester as in, but then I guess at that time it would switched over to Potsie. So is that, what do you use the proxy or polio? My first boards from Masonville were always polyester. Then we started switching to a poxy in about 1985. I've got a slot onboard that Dave calling on, who was the laminator for high-tech back then we started experimenting with styrofoam and carbon fiber, and I raced the first one in 1985. I think it was. And that's where we're like, oh man, this is white, stiff and strong. And we're like, the lightness was just incredible compared to polyester. And I won the Gorge the second year in a row on that board. And I won the Japan world cup that year and in the spring on that court. But we learned a lot of things about, styrofoam construction goes back. We would just sink the boxes into the styrofoam. And then by the time I had finished the Japan race, my deck box had collapsed into the board. There was a big hollow spot inside. Okay. We were learning a whole new phone core and what to do with it. There was a lot of learning in that. Luckily the board stayed together until the race was over. Yeah. Classic. And then use like vacuum bagging and all that kind of stuff too, or just regular later. Yeah. When I started, I got my first vacuum bag bored by this guy, Gary efforting, who was a, you might remember him. He was the guy that made Hypertech in the Gorge and him and Keith notary would do these. They called it a clam sandwich or something where they were doing vacuum bagging. But Gary and I, he was a friend of mine because we all grew up in the same area in Clearwater, Florida. And he was showing, he made one of my original 12 foot long boards that we used to raise some world cup. And he was using this new aircraft technology called sandwich, construction. And he was the first guy that I saw doing sandwiches on boards. And slowly I learned how to do all of those process. A lot of it was trial and error, but eventually I was, I had retired from the pro wind surfing tour and started running the probe windsurfing tour. And then at the same time as being the race director, I started building boards for top guys like Kevin Pritchard and Mike abou Zionist. And those were all, they had to be super custom, super like sandwich boards. Wow. Okay. And then I guess when tiding came around, you got into kite surfing or yeah. W what happened there? The kite surfing, it was it was funny because we were sitting over here. We're all wind surfers. Layered was still a wind surfer. And he started playing with this kite and my other buddy maneuver Tom from France was starting to experiment with this kite thing and we'd see him at home Keepa. The guys were takeoff with these funny, real bars and all kinds of weird hiding stuff and start sailing this kite and go cruise down the coast, and ended up down at Kanawha or wherever. And I'm like, wow, that looks pretty interesting. What the heck is that? I didn't want to do it until somebody got back to the beach. They started out, I'm not really into this down winter and you're out there, on this thing, out in the blue water, with the, whatever could go wrong in palette around with the shark. So okay. If you could get back to where you started, that's what I finally started getting into it now. I don't know, in 97 or 98 or whatever, somebody was finally making it back. But what really got me into it was flash. Austin had moved over from Florida. He was lived in Daytona and he came over and he was this new kite guru guy. And I would watch him jump and he's  25 feet in the air and just hang in there and then come down real soft of flashy to have great Ky control. He still does. And I was just watching that going, wind surfing. If you jumped 25 feet in the air, you come down hard. I don't care what kind of stuff you're doing. It's that there's an impact. So I was like, I really want to do that. That's what really got me interested in kiting was watching flashed land softly. I'm like, okay, now I want to go boosting. So when you got into D did they still have those reels where you had two reel in the kite, if you get, if you drop it in the water. Yeah. Those guys were still using that, but I'm Brett lyrical and all those guys had their kite reels and I'm like, no, I'm not playing with that. Cut real. Does they look like you eat it? And then there's all this metal and stuff in your face. I started out with one of the two line whip, mocha kites, and then progressed to a two line Nash guy. And then eventually we started making four line kites and it got a little bit easier, those original to lion whip because, and stuff, they were all that was around, but they were a little bit dangerous. There was a lot of accidents in those early days. It took a while before at least five years before the kites got, safe enough to where, people weren't hurting themselves so bad anymore. Yeah. And then I guess around that same time the strap crew I guess layered and restaurant, all those guys started foiling, right? Torn, foiling and jaws and stuff like that. So when was the first time you tried foiling and how did you get into that? Foiling. I didn't try foiling until much later. Those guys were all into these BNN, bindings and strapped into this little board and everything weighed about 60 pounds. It seemed and big aluminum, mass and just super heavy. And then of course, these guys were real right. They were like, Hey, we're going to go to jobs. We're going to ride out or spread, it was like, you're all in, or you're not, and I'm like, they're like, Hey Alex, you got to try this. And I'm like, no way, man. I'm not going to be strapped into that tank and going over the falls. And that looks dangerous. But those guys there, they really were into it at the time. And we were all towing too at the time. With, our little tow strap boards. And I remember one day we were out at Spreckels mill and rush Randall is towing around. It's pretty small for tow day. We like to tow it. It's eight foot plus, and have some fun and it's four feet occasionally. And you're waiting for a set, but rush is going around in circles, just on his foil, cruising around at least doing backflips, going out with this thing while he's getting pulled with the checks. And we're like, man, what the heck? Russia's having a lot more fun than we are. So that was one of the first times where I really looked at it and go, wow, this could be fun. But for me to actually get into it myself, I was kite foiling at the time I had start, this is a, it was a funny story because I had stopped kiting for like about five years, Jesse Richmond, who was the world champion at the time. And his brother, Sean, they were like the best or kiters on Maui. And Jesse goes, Hey, you got to start making some kite or some tight race boards for us. I'm getting beat by girls out on the course. We just started this tight racing thing. So Jesse got me into kiting again. So I built a few boards. Then I had to test them with those guys. And that's how I got back into kiting then. So this lasted for. Maybe three years of kite racing. That was the one that we had the big, three fins on it. And you're, racing up when, so then my buddy in Martha's vineyard, we started foiling back then they were riding all kinds of funky foils, but it was the early days of foils. Most of them came out of France back then and he goes, Alex, I need you to make me a kite foil board and I'll trade you this foil, you got to start getting into foiling and you I'll trade it for a board. So I did this with my buddy, Rob Douglas, he's the world speed record holder for kiting back in the day. And he goes, okay, we're going to do a trade. So that was my introduction into kite foiling. And he gave me this foil that he had already beat up. He weighs about 2 35 or breaks the heck out of everything. And it was all wobbly and I had to keep fixing it. I was breaking it and stuff, and that's how I got. My first initiation into foiling and how to build foils. Cause I was always fixing it. And then I started making my own wings, and that's that was, started me all into foiling. Yeah. And on those foils for kite, for them back then were tiny, right? Really small wings and really long mass and so on. Or is that kind of what you started on? That's what we all started on because back then it was the same thing with layered in those guys. We had these really thin foils cause we were only interested in speed. We wanted to go faster and faster. Nobody wanted to make something to go slower. So everything back then it was, they were small, they were thin, everything was like the fast race foils were less than, 13 millimeters thick. They were, 14 or 15 millimeters was a fat foil. So that's what that's what we used to do. Yeah. And then at, and did you, when you made your own fuzzy, like CNC of them out of G 10, or what kind of how did you make your own foil? Basically what I did in the beginning was I would take some existing foil that I had, and then I would reshape it and try to figure out how to make molds. So I was making molds and figuring out how to do that. It was a whole different process. I was used to building boards and sandwich, construction, vacuum bag now on a changed to, Hey, you got to learn how to make molds and make these wings. So it was a big learning curve. I've made a lot of mistakes. I burned up a lot of molds. I did all kinds of crazy stuff. It was just like learning to build boards. You've got, there's a big learning curve, but that's what I ended up doing. And I would take some of the wings that I got and that I wanted it bigger or smaller or whatever, and I would reshape them and then make molds off of them. And then when did you actually start your business? The gold foil business and started making foils to sell? Like when was that? Yeah, and I think for Gofoil, I probably was in maybe 2013 or 14. First I put the, a name on my kite foils. Then I went to Vietnam to have my buddies over there at kinetic T. I taught them how to build the foils and then I changed it to go for it. I had this idea I'm over there with the boys in Vietnam and it, they don't speak English, super well. So I'm telling them, what do you guys think about this name? It's like gold foil, just go for it. They'd were like, yeah, I don't get it. I had to go for by myself cause I couldn't get anybody to confirm that, Hey, that's a good idea at the time, but I got my buddies over there to make me the logos and stuff. And that's where I came up with. The name go foil was when I first went over to Vietnam and started putting it in production that's way before any of the foils that everybody knows as gold foil. Now. So the kinetic factory was making your first kite surfing. Foils. Yeah. So the ones in production at first, I was building it all here, custom and I started building boards and the foils over there at Connecticut. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm going to screen share a little bit here. And then at some point He made a foil for Kailani. And then he posted this video that kind of took, I guess now it has over 5 million views, which is just amazing. But can you tell us a little bit about the backstory behind, behind this and how that all came about? There's a long story behind that, if you want to go into it, the, we want to hear all about it. Okay. In the beginning, this was about maybe eight months prior to this Kai was riding my kite foils and we decided that we were going to put one of them on his one of his standup boards. So we put a Tuttle box and one of his, I think he had an eight foot standup order, 76 or something at the time. And we put the kite foil on it and he was going to go stand up foil. And I never really heard back from Kai about it. He comes back about six or eight months later and he goes, Hey Alex, we gotta redo that thing about going down, wind foiling again. And I go what happened with the first foil? And he goes it's dangerous and there's not enough lift. And it was really hard to ride and I'm like, okay let me think about it. And I'll try and come up with something. We'll try it again. So what ended up happening was I spent two weeks taking one of the old kite foils that I had that I really liked that had the most lift and I kept changing it. And adding on, I had this idea that we got to rethink all of this, that, thin foils is not what you need to get going under your own power. We need something that's going to be a slower foil that can lift up more weight, at a slow speed. And I'm thinking shoot, these big aircraft planes that are lifting tanks and stuff go by having bigger thicker wings and different foil sections. And I started trying to mimic that on one of my kite foils. So I would build it up Bondo and AB foam, reshape it and glass in and kept playing with it. And about two weeks before I finally said, okay, you've done enough remodeling here. Cause you're never going to get it. Perfect. You have a little bumps here or whatever, and you're like, okay, let's try. So I call up Kai or I sent him a text and Kai is oh, I'm in LA, I'm on my way to Europe. I'm doing the indoor in in Paris with Robbie. We're doing, it's a wind surfing indoor. Okay I'll try it out and see how it works. So I go down to sugar coat, which is here on Mallee, which is a kind of a bumpy funky way when it's fairly big. And it's like head high Peaky sets all over the place and kind of gnarly, for trying to foil for the first time I go out and say, what the heck I'm going for it. And actually Jeffrey and fin Spencer are in the water surfing and my dentist Barclays in the water. So we've got all these guys witnessing me going out there and trying to kill myself. So I go out big standup paddleboard, or what did you put the foil on? Yeah, I had made a board that was. I think it was eight, six or nine foot was my standup board. I put a total box in it about 24 inches from the tail and I'm thinking, okay, this should be good. Where I want to stand on. It will give me a little bit of lift. Cause I moved it forward compared to what I do on my kite foil. And I use the kite mass though, which is 38, 39 inches tall. I've got this new front wing, which ended up being the original Kaiwei. And so I put that on there, go out. I had a tail wing that I didn't like for kiting, cause it had too much lift. So I used that for the sup foil to cause I needed more or less. So I'm like, okay, I'll try that. See if it works, get out there. All of a sudden I rise up and I'm like, I got plenty of lift and then I roll over and I'm looking at these wings in my life because I'm on this giant mask, and it's just, I kept looking at the wings. After about five near misses of hitting that wing with my face. I go into the beach and I'm thinking to myself now I know what Kai's talking about now. I know why it's dangerous to the masters too tall. So I go back to the shop, cut the thing in half, I cut it down to 18 inches or something and go back to lower lowers it. the next day. And actually take my GoPro and film myself writing. I remember I went over an Eagle Ray or something that day got a nice video and I'm going like, at times almost 50 yards, I'm like, whoa, I could do this. And it was just like amazing. And a couple of my buddies were in the water and saw that fuck buck saw it and Jerry Rodriguez saw it. And these guys were just like, they couldn't believe it. They're like, oh my God, he's doing it. But anyway, is this on your YouTube channel? I put it in Facebook back then Facebook. I put it in Facebook. I've got it somewhere. I can find it. I don't think I ever put it in YouTube. I don't know. I might've. Yeah, but you go that far back, but yeah, I tagged Kai on it and then Kai saw it. He goes, oh, wow, man. I've got to try that as soon as I get back. So he was all stoked. And then when Kai came back, you put Khan on the same board, the same thing. And it's hard to describe right now. We take it for granted that, what are you watching Tom Brady? I couldn't believe that's ridiculous. But anyway while I'm a big fan of the Tampa bay Buccaneers, so he's brought it back to my town. So he's like my hero. He was always a hero for me, but now he's like a super hero, but anyway, Comes back jumps on the same equipment and it's hard. Describe the first time you see a guy who's foiling and he goes, past the peak goes way out to the left, comes back across the peak goes way over to the right and keeps going back and forth. And you're looking at them going, what the heck is he doing? It's just, it was mind boggling to see somebody do that for the first time. And I was like, oh my God, what the heck is going on here? Maybe we have something here. And, Kai is just a freak. He was just doing stuff that was, unbelievable at the time. And I was just like, oh, maybe I should make a patent out of this. This is it. It was just like a revelation seeing something like that for the first time. Yeah. And that, the first foil I got we jet my friend, Jeff Chang, and I'd tried it on a kite foil at first, be behind a jet ski and stuff. And we were really struggling in same thing. Like almost killed ourselves, falling into the foil and stuff like that. But then when we got the first Chi foil, that was like, oh, this is so much easier, but it's funny because at that time, the Chi foils seemed like a huge foil, but now it's actually a kind of a small foil. Most people start on a much bigger flow. Yeah, exactly. That's a really small foil. Now, getting back to the story, how that evolved to your video. Okay. Kai was just riding in the waves that sugarcoat doing this stuff. Henry Spencer took a video of him that was like the first time where you see this going crazy. And then he starts going. He goes, okay. We got to, I got to talk to Rob. We got to put this on one of my downwind boards because we tried it on my downwind board, the same board that we were riding in the surf, and I'd go out there with Kai. He has his 12, six, his regular, Nash board. We're paddling down. When I cannot get up to save my life, no way, especially on a Chi foil. So he goes, Hey, let me try that. Give it to Chi and Chi proceeds to get up like seven times on the way down to sugar coat, like immediately, even on that standup board. And I'm like, the kids are free. He just paddles his weight to strength ratio is just off the chart when he's battling. So he's all over the place. We get all the way down to sugarcoat. He takes off from the outside, which is like at least a hundred and 150 yards outside. And he cruises all the way into the beach and it was like, wow, this is something he spends the next week, trying to talk Robbie into being able to turn one of his Nash boards and put a total box in it. So I go, okay. We'll do that. Just keep talking to Robbie. See if you can pull it off. Eventually Robbie gives him the, okay. Okay. You're going to do it on that board and blah, blah, blah. So we put a tunnel box in at 48 inches. Cause Kai says, that's where I stand. I think that's going to be the good place to put the tunnel box. So we put it in there. I get this text he's down at the Harbor practicing and he goes, Houston, we have a problem. And then he goes on to describe that I'm going plenty, fast enough to get foiling, but the tail is hitting the water and I can't get up just because the total box is so far forward, his tail would drag and bring him down again. So he goes, okay, let's put a tunnel box at 24 inches. Like it is on the other board. And w we should be able to get up and I go why don't we just cut the tail off, and see about it. Like in this video, you can see how I cut the tail off of that board. Put like little diamonds. Yeah. So the next day he shows up at the shop with the board, I said, yeah, we'll put the fellow box. And he goes, Hey, I think you're right. Let's cut the tail off and just leave the total box where it is. That'll give me less bored after he thought about it overnight. And then within about two weeks, he makes this crazy video of him just jamming down the coast on this. And one of the, one of the scenes from the video that really caught my eye was Dave Kalama. And Jr is his cousin are in a two man canoe, which is two man Outrigger, which is the fastest boat. Usually in Maui the pattern and he goes right by them and it was just like, oh my God, what is going on there? It was just amazing. It was like, oh, we've got possibilities now. Yeah. They always screws. That's the dream to be able to just surf the open ocean swells and just be able to keep going indefinitely. And then something that layered had always talked about, we always played volleyball and we were always around together. We always played at Brett's house and layered would always talk about that going. I think we're going to be able to just cruise for miles down the coast on one of these foils. And then, like 10 or 15 years later this is what we. Yeah. That's amazing. And then, yeah. And then what happened after that? Pretty soon after that, Nash started making foils as well. So how did you feel about that? I did not feel super stoked about that. And it was like, Hey, we've got it. All right here. You could just, we could build it for you to put your logo on it and you can go from there and then I could make some money out of it. And Robby was, he's always, do it all yourself and keep it inside the company. And they wanted to do it all ourselves and Mickey, he had told me one day he goes out, he really going to be bummed if we do this all by ourselves, because Rodney wants to do it himself. And I'm like I'll be bombed, but we'll still be friends. And I guess you did, you did that with star boards for awhile, right? You put the Starboard's logo on or co-branded with Starboard's was starboard logos as well. We had done a lot of them were just go foil and a lot of them were starboard Gofoil. So there was both of them were branded at the same time for a while. There we were in the early days we were connected with starboard. And then you got a patent on the, on your foil design. So how come you never, did you ever try to enforce that? I Obviously like now there's so many companies making foils. Is there any way, like anything you ever were able to do with that patent or was it just not feasible? He never really pursued it. If there was a lawyer out there who wanted to pursue it, and work at his, work on his dime and then split it, 90, he takes 90% of the profits. We get. Then we could do something, but it's something where, you don't really want to jump into that game unless, it's financially feasible. We've got patents on the patent that all kinds of aspects of, the surf foiling and stand up for healing. And basically as being, a new thing and, thickness of foils being thicker than the norm and all of that. So there's a bunch of aspects to the patent, but we never really pursued that to where it gets expensive, and you'd rather, nobody wants to take that on, and get their own money. You would do a 90 10 split, huh? Split. Get that out there. That would do it. Oh, rate is 8% is royalties that all the companies should be paying you, they could get 90% of the 8%, but yeah, that's just one of those things in the beginning, we went for that patent to, it was like, wow this could really be something big. And is it a utility patent or did design patent, do you know? I'm not even sure which one it is. It's the more expensive ones and that's a utility patent. That means that, that means it doesn't have to be like, even if it's not an exact copy, if it's the same concept and yeah. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we went for. And we have a big time patent lawyer firm that did it, but it's hard to enforce, obviously you have to prove that it's and he was going to chase it, on their own diamond set of you paying for these lawyers because the lawyers and all that gets expensive, we've got the patent and the us China and. Australia, we didn't pursue the other countries because you got to pursue every country separately. And then how, and then how did you, did it evolve? Like I know in the early days, like everybody wanted to buy foils and there, you couldn't just couldn't get them, like you couldn't make them fast enough. And like, how did you ramp up production and what kind of issues did he run into? Yeah, you're in the early days, you, haven't a lot of problems with how to construct this and how to keep it from breaking in me. I always making wind surfers in the early days. I really hated warranties that will end up ruining your business. You do all of this work and then you got to give the guy another board or fixes board or whatever. So in the beginning, we didn't even want to put out the product till we were pretty sure that we weren't going to break it. So that stalls your production and stuff. And then once you do ramp it up to get, full on production going, then you end up, you have to watch out that things are evolving so fast to not make too much of the, something that might be outdated by the time you get it, because it takes a long time for these factories to build our stuff. What happened with us, which was unique with us is that my two brother-in-laws build canoes over in China. My one brother-in-law owns the factory because he got burned by some Chinese factory he was working with. So he decided to do his own us own Chinese factory. And then he got asked to jump through all the hoops to do that. But anyway, they were making the canoes. And he makes a bunch of different models that you see around in Hawaii and the manager of the factory, my other brother, a brother-in-law Michael Gamblin is my other sister's husband that owns the factory. He's the genius behind, put it all together. He's the guy that I do all the CAD work with and building the foils and the wings and stuff. He's really super smart. And he's, can pull all of this stuff together. It has the drive to do it where people go, oh, wait a minute. That's way overwhelming. I'm not going to do my own Chinese factory. That's going to be too many things to overcome. But anyway, what happened was I had been building stuff in Vietnam. And it was getting to where it was hard to get stuff out of Vietnam fast enough. And I was seeing that these foils you're going to need a lot of these are going to need thousands of these things, cause it's in hot demand. So I asked my brother-in-law Michael, Hey, do you want to start building these at your factory in China? And I showed him the video of Kai and the 5 million views. He's oh my God. He just went by Dave Kalama and junior on the two man. Okay. We're all in. Let's do it. And that's how it started. And now it's a whole family business and we build all of the main hydrofoils in China at his factory. So I guess in the beginning, like I remember the first one I got it started to crack right by the mass of base, like between the base and the Tableau box. And then also on the fuselage. That's, those were the main points where a lot of. You had a lot of issues, right? Yeah. You have issues like that in the beginning where there's a, it's a process of trying to get your carbon fiber loaded, just right. The direction ability or, you're 45 degree angles and how much materials in there and, the compression, there's a lot of issues that you had to overcome. I like the first one I got we got one from the factory in China comes over and we had all of the fiberglass or carbon aligned in the wrong direction. And I snapped the front wing right off writing, riding. All of a sudden my front wings gone. And it's just a matter of, you've got to have fibers going the right way and the 40 fives and everything to work perfectly, especially with prepregs is a whole different animal where there are layers and layers put together in the middle. Okay. So they're made as a union directly. Think of it as the strands are uni directional. Like these are the strands are the carbon. Each sheet is like this, you can align it like this or whatever. And you cut these all, put them in the wall in a certain way. So there was a lot of learning curves to get, not all right in the beginning and how much should be here and how much should be there. And where are the weak points and all that kind stuff. Yeah. We went through all that too. So very frustrating to get stuff back that just breaks, right? Yeah. I know. Warranties. Yeah. And then again, then, sorry. And then and then what happened then? The develop, what was the development after that? Like how did you ramp it up and become a global brand. In the beginning, it was easy because nobody else had any foils. So we were, we went globally right in the beginning. And we were selling shoes couple thousand or 3000 foils in those first couple of years, just because we were the only guys who had foils. So that was easy. So then we got around worldwide, fairly easy in the beginning, then it becomes harder and harder because you've got, 10 guys get in, want to make foils. And you've got 20 guys who come in and then you got 50 guys. You've got people you'd never even heard of or trying to build foils. And everybody wants to jump in on this bandwagon. It's like the early days of wind surfing or stand up, everybody jumped into the show to try and be. So that makes it harder. So you've got to, you've got to keep up really good quality. Don't you don't want warranties to come back to ruin the business, but at the same time, you're trying to make faster stuff or easier stuff or, whatever and try and keep progressing is the way we try to do it over here. Yeah. And then, so you got into more high aspect, foils and fast, faster designs, thinner foils, smaller for us and so on. What do you, what are you working on now? It's like your latest latest designs and what's, what do you see for the future? What we're going to do in the future is we're going to try and weave the last couple of years, we've gone into speed and try to get faster and faster, and we've made a bunch of. So the wings to go a lot faster because in the beginning, everybody was hitting on us going, oh, your oils are outdated. They're so slow in this and that and blah, blah, blah. So then we worked on our speed. So now we've gotten to where we were like about the fastest foils out there. So now we want to try and get back to, without losing some of that, you'll have those lines of fast, easy foils to ride, but then something that is really easy to ride it, doesn't accelerate on the turn, something that's a little bit user-friendly for the intermediate type guys, the guys that are really advanced and ride. These are NL wings, which are super fast and, tourney and everything. But the the intermediate is get a little bit, shy away from that. It's we're going to make the GL is a really good one for winging it for the intermediate people, but I'm going to try for next year to make something that's super easy. So we're going to have a different line. We'll have three different lines, basically. So are you making a foil that's specifically designed for wing foiling or are they all all around foils for Steph prone, foiling, standup foiling and wink foiling, or depending on the size of the wing or like how, yeah. They all can cross over. So we're finding out that, you want one, that's supposed to be erasing foil. Okay. So we're thinking downwind or are racing for wings or or towing falls into that category. If you're in really big waves, you need some super fast and Then you have the other wings, like the NL, which are great for stand up. They're great for surfing the smaller ones, prone surfing, but they're really good for winging also. So it's funny how all of them, you can almost do every one of the sports on each one of those wings. It's just a different style of riding you have to do, or a different size riders, weight, might like the bigger wing where the smaller guys like, oh my God, I can't write that thing. I need a little tiny thing. But all of them seem to cross over. I can tow on, on different size waves on any of the wings I can wing on any of the wings. I need particular amount of, a lot of wind for the small toe wings, but on the Raceway. Like when I'm paddling downwind, a lot of the wings crossover to me, paddling downwind too. So there's, it's funny. They all have their moments and can crossover. Yeah. So I guess the same design just in different sizes works for different things. I guess when you're Don flooding, you probably needed a little bit more surface area, a bigger wing, to keep going. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Cool. Yeah. And then how did you get into wink foiling? What I know you were one of the early wing furthers. You were on an ozone and stuff like that. Posting videos of you riding at lanes and stuff like that. So how did you get into that? A wing foiling started with the way it started over here was flash. Austin was always tightened down there with us and riding. Type foils and stuff just decided to put together this funky wing thing with some windsurfing battens and some old kite material and just put this whole thing together. And he goes, Alex, I need one of your foils. I think I can get distinct foiling. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, yeah, I've been hiding down at the sewer plant, try and testing this thing. So get him a foil on it. He comes up there, we take pictures of them. These are the first things we see of the new of evolution of Wingfoot and where it started. So we kite and rode this thing at the same place where Ken winners, right next door to us, he does all of his kite testing there too. And then Ken saw him one day and he's oh my God, what is that? I'm going to put that in production. I'm going to build a couple of those and we'll start doing experimenting with it. So Ken takes it from there and puts the boom on it. Cause Ken's an old time windsurfer and he just liked the book. And the very first wings that I tried were kin winners, duotone wings. And that's how we first learned. Alan could, is got me down there one day. We were down there with Alan at canal and he goes here, go try it. And then I proceed to get up and cruise around. After about 10 minutes I was riding it pretty well. Cause I already had, was really good kite for her. So it was easy for me to learn, oh, I used to be a windsurfer and then my wife tried it and stuff. And then from there it was like, oh my God, this is fun. So the first year I went to the Gorge with, it was maybe three years ago and I was on a, do a tone. And then I got to try ozone for the first time they had a couple ozones there at the show and they gave me one of those. So then I was using the ozone and the duotone at the hatchery and just having a blast. I was like, oh my God, this is fun. It's like the early days of wind surfing. Where were you working? Everybody was super stoked and feeding off of each other. And it's just a bunch of fun between everybody and they're all talking about, Hey, what are you writing? What I'm I learned this, what should I do? I'm having problems with this. And it's like the whole same atmosphere of the early wind surfing days. Yeah. And people are very open about sharing their ideas and their knowledge and what they learned is pretty cool. That it's not as close hold as in some other disciplines, I think. Yeah. And then what, so what are the like behind see those two boards and like what is, what are you working on now? What are you latest products and yeah. Tell me what you're up to. Latest thing now is we'll be getting in our boards from the kinetic factory. I worked with the kinetic factory again that used to build my kite boards to start making a wing boards. Their full sandwich, Connecticut is known for making. Some of the best boards in the world, as far as the factory goes, they're super solid. They, anybody who's gotten any new Jimmy Lewis boards in the last five years knows that they're built very well. So we get a container of those come in. Yep. That you can see the they've all the boards and the first container will have a total and a plate. There's all kinds of foot straps placements. You can see that has a handle there in the middle. And just the typical things that you need to have on a wing board, as you could see how the volume of this is in a pretty volume forward on my boards. I like to have a lot of volume up forward when I'm winging, because we're going shorter and shorter board. And you have a tendency when you're standing up forward, the board goes underwater. So like you come down off the plane and then all of a sudden the front goes under. It does a summary. So as you can see some of these, can you show us yeah. Maybe pick one up and move that chair out of the way. I'd show us the shape a little bit. Yeah. Let's look here. This is 105 liter board is five, six, and you can see how we have a lot of thickness up in the front of here. Cause we get the five, six you get up forward. If you have the traditional theater noses that look really cool, they sink on their water. When you stand up here, basically we move the flotation of forward. It's a little bit bigger, fuller outline up forward as compared to the tail. So it's reverse of what a lot of the boards are. That bigger tails, a lot of float in the back. I like to have the full rotation of forward. We've gone shorter and shorter, and it's easier to stand on something when it's like that this one you can see has the traditional, like wind surfing style footsteps. This is 45 degrees here, and I have one strap in the back. I like to ride wind shift and style. It's really easy to switch your feet and stuff. You go from strap. A lot of people are coming from surfing background, have a problem with switching your feet. And so then you have foot straps that can go straight. Like you're just going to go one direction. So it has the answer it's for going riding with just one set or footsteps, or you've got the list surfing style where you can switch your feet and go forward and start to learn how to go both ways. Because if you get in a problem where you're trying to get up and really like when TOSA. You're crossed up on your bad tack. It's hard to get up like that. And it's hard to go up wind like that. So if you do get into light winds, it's easier to switch your feet better to learn in the beginning, because once you start going just tow side all the time, you never switch feet again. The deck is pretty much flat. Or do you have like concave in the deck? Any kind of, I don't like on caves so much. I want everything to be a flat platform for my feet and nothing weird. And I don't concave too, because. I'd rather, if you fall on it, I want it to be flat and not have a little bit of a rounded edge to hit your shins or your knees or whatever. I'd rather we're getting back on is easier on a slide deck. I find it. And you don't hit your elbow or whatever on that hitch. Yeah. Yeah. Like I used to ride on Connor. Baxter's, downwind board, he's got this big scoop out, all those star wars at the Umar and I'd fall on that thing. I'm like, oh my God. And he has whacked myself with this heavy concave. So it's cut that system. I don't like that. So I figure if it works, don't make it all fancy. Like the same thing with the bottom sheets are real flat so that it has an easier release to pop up when you're planning it real light. Is it a, if slat all the way to the nose and you have a little bit of convex in the nose, it was pretty much flat. The holes in soft rails, the rails in the back towards the tail of the board would have been, it's a little bit round here and you have a little bit of a kick in the last, behind your total box and your plates. And can you show that the profile, the contour, like you said, it's a little bit thinner in the tail than in the notes. No. They're about the same thickness, but now are thicker in the front and thinner and the thickness keep about the same thickness. So don't go crazy with, making a super sick. I don't like the way that feels when I'm winning. I want a lot of float up for, because most of the time on these short boards, like this board is my four, six. I tow with this and I wing with this and can kite with this also. But even with this board, it was one of the things too, when you're out of your boards you want the bone flow to be about the same so that when you sinking it, especially on sinker, it seems evenly because more of my boards, I have a pretty big it's a little bit thicker in the front than the back. And I float like this and I go down and it's hard when you're sinking like that. Not really far forward and concentrate on the nose going down. So there's all types of, trial and error and into figuring out what really feels good for me. Always made my own board so I can go ahead and, make a board that week and test it again. But I don't make custom boards anymore for other people, but the family still gets nice. Thanks for showing us that I'm going to show the screen share again real quick. Oh, sorry. Let me let me go back to that. So are you going to show your bottom here? You can see all of what the, oh, you got the measurement for where to place the foil and the bottom handle. Yeah, I guess guide there. So like you use your, this is how far you are from the tail and the measurements. And then if you like your plate in certain position, you remember what your number is to go, okay I like it at, seven inches or whatever it is for the plate title of course goes in just one place. When you got a, a nice. It's nice to have a handle on a wing board because getting in and out of the water is much more for me. And then on the deck, you don't have a handle though. So I don't like the handle on the deck because when I'm stepping all over the place and my toe gets in there, I've had a couple of problems with almost breaking my toe, like having all the dash. Yeah. But then I guess when you're carrying them without the foil attaches, it's off balance, but you can, I guess you can still carry with that bottom, but you could still carry it. It feels a little bit nose heavy, especially on the bigger six oh board, but you can always, the smaller words really. Yeah. Not that hard to carry it. Yeah. And I was going to show the different sizes you have available here. I guess you have a 46 by 44 liters, five oh, by 87 liters, five six by 106 liters and then 600 by 134 liters. So four different sizes. And when are those going to be available? Next week, I think container arrives next week could be the following week. I don't know how much we get stuck with, trucking and customs in Honolulu. It's already in Honolulu. So I'm just going through the, the process of getting it over here. Nice. And then, oh, I think I had this on here too. So tell us a little bit about the co also making your own wings now, right? Is that Craig, is this one of your prototypes? This is one of the prototypes. This is the actual version of the three. Which will it'll have stripes on it. It's got all the logos and stuff, and I moved the windows closer to the middle strut on the production style, but I've been using this thing since I want to say February or something, it's the the quality of it feels really good. I haven't stretched it out, and it hasn't blown apart. And I put it through some tail this day is probably, a regular 25 to 30 knots. And just imagine some of the days where we're 35 to 40 and I'm still using that week. So they're built super solid. And what I like about my wings is what we did was make the bladders a little bit bigger to make them stiffer. So when your sheet in with these things are not moving all over the place, like some of the wings, we got a little bit more of a, it feels like a windsurfing sail you shoot in, and it doesn't move all over the place. Yeah. And that makes them more powerful too, I'm, the Armstrong rings are like that, that they're really thick flatters, which make it more rigid and powerful. It seems yeah. It looks like you made the wing tips pretty squared off. So you have less of a wing span to, is that one of the things you were working on or, just maybe talk us through the different prototypes, you try it out and what you've learned from trying different things. We did with this is basically our, we call it our elliptical style. It's more of a standard style, but we do bring the wingtips closer together than some of the wings. Cause you'll notice how on, F1 or Armstrong have pretty long wingtips and you have a tendency to touch those in the water very easily. So my wing tips are broadened together a little bit more on that. Ellipticals. So you got a little bit more cord in the middle. So think of it as a longer strut in the middle shorter wingspan, just to make it easier to turn without touching your tips. Then we have a square model, which is the one that I was writing at home keep. Or the one day you might've seen that with the square model is better for really light wind so that when you're, you get on those bigger wings and you're having problems pumping, to get up. So they like you're, you just want to get foil, like that one, that's the square model. You see how that one's way more square than that elliptical style you just saw. This looks almost a little bit more like a, that slick wing at a new Ken winners. S duotone one. Yeah that closer to a slick, whether you score off the ball just so that what I like about this is I do a lot of windsurfing style wave riding, hurting like that. When I call it cheating in, you can keep the tip further up out of the water, but the main advantage of this one, forget all this hotdogs and stuff that I'm doing here is when it's really light. When you have problems pumping up to get onto a foil, it's a day where you're out. It's Hey, I wonder if I can get foiling today, and you go to the pump, and you keep touching your tip in the water and it stops the whole progression of trying to get up. You got to start all over again. So the square tips are made for that to where when you pump it, it's easier to pop up the foil and have a lot less problem of the wing tip touching while you're trying to accomplish them. That's the biggest advantage of these square model. So the square models are made in the bigger size. It's like a four or five, a five, five and a six, five. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's one of the things about some of the earlier designs is when, you think you could use a bigger size to get it going in lighter winds, but then then the wing tips were so wide that you couldn't really create a lot of power with it because of it has, because it's like the wingtips is drag and you can't really bring it vertical. You give you that forward power, this just lifts up, but you can't really get that forward momentum with it. That's where that, I think the square design makes a lot of sense. So you actually have two different wing designs or is it just by size or how does that work? You can wing styles, but it's by size where they convert over to the other ones. So by elliptical side, Those 2, 2, 2 7, 2 7 is like a main state here in Maui. Everybody, when they get lit up over here, the two seven is really nice. I ride the three, five, and then the four or five. So those are the ellipticals. You got 2, 2, 2 7, 3, 5, 4 or five. Now the square model, like you saw in that last video is a four or 5, 5, 5, and six five. So it's more towards the higher end because when I, those ones don't loft is easy. They're a little bit more unstable if you're just luffing and want to cruise down the coast and, hi, I win. So the medical ones, I like a little bit better for that. And my feedback from my riders that, you've got to get it, some of the intermediate and beginner riders, because feeling stuff that's different than you and they get on it all the way out. This elliptical is way easier for me to. In handled. But when you get into that day, when it's six to eight knots and you cannot get foiling, like even my wife, she was, didn't like the square model, having all kinds of problems with it. And I'm like, I put her out in it's fairly windy. Then we have one day where it's not very windy. She goes out with the four or five elliptical and she kept touching the tips and she's getting all upset. And I go, okay, here now try the square model. She goes, gets right up. She was like, oh, okay. Now I get fantastic. So those wings you have available now for sale, you have them on Maui. No those are all prototypes as everybody who are having problems, getting wings, those will probably show up in September. If we're lucky. I said, yeah, we're going to start building them in August and we're going to ship them in September, then. Nice. Oh, my shipping, do they have to go in a container or do I get a good rate to air freight them then what we won't know until we actually have the product and see how you take the ship. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. The whole pandemic thing and like what, how did it affect you and your business? I know shipping has been a nightmare, like getting stuff shipped in containers and stuff like that. But other than that, like how did the whole pandemic workout for you at Maui? The pandemic here on Maui, it was we're out in the, to where, there's not as many people over here, they shut down the islands, nobody was loud and, people didn't want to leave because they couldn't get back in type of thing. So I was in Florida when all this happened, we were doing a tour over there and demos all over the place. And then they're like, Hey, they're going to shut down the state. We got to fly back to. On a mad rush to get back home. And then I stayed there for a, since last March. No. Did I go anywhere? I think I went to a wahoo last month when they finally opened it up to where I could go without all kinds of tests and get my nose probed and everything. I went anywhere. Maui is they closed down the beaches. We're not allowed to go to canal hall. They closed it all down and that's where we were all winging it from. But you're allowed to go to the Harbor. So you go to the Harbor and what ended up happening was everybody had nothing to do and started learning how to go when they closed down the canoe guys, because the six man canoe, as you're too close to quarters and they wouldn't let them do a six man canoes and they have all the lessons and stuff from the teaching and races. So they closed down. Basically the canoes were. The wing foiling, and then the wing Oilers just took over. There was no trap boat, traffic, and all, there was a bunch of wing boilers and all of a sudden you've got kids and grandmas and old windsurfers who had, and wind surfed in 25 years coming back into the water. And it's, it was just crazy. There's some days there was 50 or 60 people down there and it's still going on down there now it's started a whole, a whinging. This COVID started a winging revolution on a big community down there. Yeah, that's awesome. And then more recently you had that you had a gold foil get together at that at a big house over there. And I know my friend, Derek, Thomas Saki went over there and stuff. And talk a little bit about that. That was great. We do this usually once a year, we have we rent we have a friends that have the access to the house down. Yeah. And he lets us go into it for a weekend or whatever we're trying to do. So we do go foil weekend and i

Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show.  On this show I interview Wing Foil athletes, not only about the technique and the gear that they use, but I also try to get to know them a little bit better, their background, what makes them tick, what inspires them and how they live their best life. It's a long form format. So if you'd like in-depth information, then you're going to love this show.  I really appreciate you. I know not everyone has time to watch it on YouTube with the visuals. I think it's great, but you can, of course, also listen to it as a podcast with audio only, just search your favorite podcast app for "the blue planet show".  Today's interview is with Kevin and Kaden Pritchard. Kevin Pritchard is a multiple time wind surf world champion. Him and his brother, both Matt Pritchard and Matt's son, Kaden is 12 years old and he's only been winging for about a year. And he's already doing crazy moves: back flips and he's working on forward flips and he breaks down technique for me on the Flaka, which really helped me out too. So there's some really good stuff in here. And just the whole story about the Pritchard family living on Maui, basically because a friend gave a wind surf board to Kevin's dad. So that's what led to the whole family living that lifestyle now. So I thought that was great. Really interesting story. Good to see the two generations together and hope you enjoy this show as much as I did. And without further ado, please welcome the Pritchards!  Okay. Kevin and Kaden Prichard. Welcome to the Blue Planet Show. Thanks so much for making some time to join me. How you guys doing today? Yeah, thanks for having us. I was like, checking you out on that. On the internet and it's oh, let's do something. Could be cool. We've got Kaden who's starting to really start to rip on the wing foil. And yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Thanks for reaching out to me. I appreciate that. And and I saw you, you just started a YouTube channel and blogging and all that kind of stuff too. So I always like to collaborate with other people that try to create content and stuff like that. So it's great to have you guys, and you're both on Nali right now, right? And where are you at? It looks like you got a lot of gear behind you. There we are in my dad's workshop or yeah, his dad. We have a little rental. Wind surfing thing. So renting the waves and stuff over here on Maui. And my brother does a lot of lessons teaching, wind surfing. And he's been, has he been teaching leaning to a little bit Kayden? So your dad is Kevin's brother. That's how you relate okay. What's your dad's name? Okay. And then Kevin you been a long time windsurfer multiple time world champion and stuff like that. So then what, can you talk a little bit about your career actually, let's start with where you grew up and how you got into it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I grew up in California and actually my brother and I, we started windsurfing together with my parents and my mom and my dad. And like we all used to travel around, we'd go to hood river and we lived in California, so we just started my dad was addicted to it, so he just took us with us and just, we all fell in love with the sport and it was super fun and yeah, just started wind surfing all the time and we got into it and then my brother moved to Maui in 92. I think it was. And then I moved in 94. And then we just started going, doing the world tour together and just like step-by-step got better and better. And then yeah, it was awesome. We, he won a bunch of world titles and I won some world titles. It's crazy how a sport can take you and change your life. It's like we started in California together and now our whole family's here. And then he's had a family of two kids and it's pretty fun watching the Caden grow up to in the mix of, what we used to do as a family, go and wind surf and all this stuff. And his, my dad, his grandfather is I would say he's his biggest, person helping him go down to the beach and doing winging. And my dad's learned a wing and he's 70. So they go down together all the time and it's pretty cool. So we've got a family atmosphere that we've had all our lives and to see it getting passed down has been, it's been fun. Cool. So how old are you now? I'm 45. And what about UK? 11. 11. All right. Cool. So how, when did you stop competing professionally as a windsurfer or are you still competing or no. I would say it's pretty cool. I won the law classic in 2000 and then I won it in 2017. I think it was. 16 2016. So having I had a amazing career of 16 years of, still being, near the top. And that was one of my best moments was just, like 16 years later when it beaten these kids out who keep that was, it was special conditions with big waves and weird conditions, but still it was it was a good feeling to end your career on top and that's awesome. So that was only four years ago. You won that law classic, something like that. That's awesome. And then I do a bunch of testing for the wind surfing company as he sails and. Got more into that, brand ambassador and I'm still surfing every day. It's good. And testing the equipment, testing the gear and using the knowledge of all those years of competing and wind surfing to, make products better and things like that. So what do you do now mostly like where do you live mostly and what do you do? And so on. Nowadays I live on Maui and just have fun. I get to, go winging if it's like right now in the summertime. I haven't gone yet, but last summer I went a couple of times and I liked the just like the variety right now, just if it's good for cutting go cutting. It's good for wind surfing, go wind surfing, unless it's there's a, different seasons of when sales come out. When it's a busy test season from testing the winter thing here and then otherwise just just having fun. Yeah. And I'm just gonna play your this is like your new YouTube channel, and this is in Mexico, right? Yeah. You spend a lot of time in Mexico or in Baja. Yeah. This is kinda, this is where my brother and I would come down and we learned, I would say we learned wave sailing here because we, it was probably an eight hour drive from Southern California. And we would come down to this spot and learn the way. So it was pretty, it was like a kind of a. It's a long way. So you get a lot of turns and you can work on your sailing technique really easily. So it's, I think it's one of the best spots in the world for progressing your, your sailing or your whatever. When I was down here, there's this guy out there weaning and he was catching like, I dunno, 300 waves a day or something ridiculous like that, but it's pretty cool. Definitely a good spot that got you interested in and foiling as well. Yeah. How is that going? I guess you were talking about just starting to spoil and struggling with it a little bit. Yeah. I think the wind surfer on the foil is the hardest device. I don't know why they're either. Maybe nobody has really Stepped up the R and D with it, but the way wave, wind surf, foiling. I don't know. I've struggled with it. You just have so much power in the sale, you know where the wing, you can just get rid of it. And same with the kite where the wind surfing. It just it's hard. I don't know. I had a hard time with it anyways, right? Yeah. I actually haven't even really tried wind surfing with the foil. I used to wind surf all the time, but with the foil, I think it's like a whole different thing. And yeah, I think the foil and the wing just work really well together. Like you said, you can power it and ride the wave more like surfing the foils rather than the using the wind power. Yeah. It's pretty cool to watch him and see how like confident, like I was, I seem to be like carving little things with the foil and I think. If I could do that on surf board, which, would be the goal. It would be cool, but I don't know. I guess I got to put more time into it, like he's on the water all the time, so I'm not quite used to the foil as much as I should be, so in Baja, you also have you run like camps as well, like brother does. And that's where it would be, like I was saying, it's just awesome for just the waves are just endless. So for learning, it's incredible, it'd be fun to do a clinic with this kid down there if he could be in the cold water, but all right. Okay Kayden, let's talk a little bit about you now. How did I guess you were 11 years old, obviously still go to school, right? Yeah. Where do you go to school? Which school do you go to? I have a homeschool this past year. I've been getting a lot of time on the water and then next year, the Seaberry. Obviously you can drive it. So how do you get to the beach who takes you and so on? My grandpa has been taking me basically every time I want to go for since June, I would say right since June last year. So is that part of your homeschooling PE program is going wink, foiling. Yeah, no, you got time off, but so are you born and raised on Maui and how did you get, like, how did you get into water sports? What's your earliest memory of surfing or water sports? So on I started surfing with my dad when I was like three, and then when I was like five or six, I started doing it by myself and I loved it. And that's what I did till I was like nine or nine or 10. I still do it. But then I got into wind surfing and then one day my grandpa came to my house and just said, let's go win. And I didn't really want to go. But then I went. Down there. I loved it. And so when was this about a year ago or two years ago, or do you remember when, how long ago? That was a year ago. On July. Wait on June 1st. Wow. So pretty much exactly in one year. And now you're doing all these crazy moves. Yeah. So you're progressing pretty quickly, obviously. Like for those of you who don't know, I'm going to share some video of you doing some of these crazy moves. So at T talk a little bit about the back split. When did you learn to do that? And. Maybe let's try to break down that move a little bit. And what was most challenging about learning it and so on? The most challenging part is you rip your wing lot. Yeah. And, but once you get nice waves to launch off of, it's not that difficult because basically once you get halfway around, like upside down, then once you get and to get right there, then the wind will just blow you around. So it's the hardest part is to just pull your board around. Is this where is this? Where are you? Where is this at? This is car point it's in between Harbor and canal. Yeah, but it's not like you're launching off of huge waves. You're just launching off some smaller chop. It looks like a little swells case. So talk a little bit about the approaching the jump. I think that's something that most people overlook that when you're jumping, it's really important to come low and then get your foil at a really steep angle on the exit. Like this, you can see how your foil is going up at it's pretty steep angle. Yeah. And especially with the backflip, what I was trying when I was first learning it is, I was just like going super fast and trying to spin like as fast as I can, but I learned. That it's easier to do it slower when you have a bigger ramp and stuff. Okay. So getting more height and just rotating a little bit more slowly, and then you really throw back your head. Is that is it, does that, I guess that just helps you commit to the rotation. Yeah. I have three rotate better and it's just how I do it. I don't know. Yeah. So you said you've ripped a lot of wings, so is it, is that from the, when you lose your board and it falls onto the wing on the landing? Or how did you rip the wings? Sometimes I just pop up and there's a rip in my link. So what I'm guessing, it's probably from like, when I land and say, my board gets like falls off my face. It like, that's and then it'll flip over onto the way. So that's what happened in the most, but there were some times where like I would fall on to my wing would fall on my foil. So it's not all perfect. Let me see in the video and then get it fixed for you. My dad, he just got he's. He's amazing. He got a sewing machine, so he's been he's been doing like all these little projects with making little harnesses and leashes that work really well for my dad. I dunno. Do you use them or not? Yeah, I have one he's like Mr. MacGyver. My dad was like the original band life guy. Like when we were kids, we had this van that we pack all our stuff into and go down to Baja. And that was, 25 years ago, 30 years ago. And now it's the rage is band life, man life. And my dad was a builder and that's actually how we started wind surfing is he was building a house for a guy and the guy was still some wind surfing. And for my dad's birthday, he gave him a wind surfer. And so he just started wind surfing. And I was wanting to write that guy that gave my dad the windsurfer, because it changed our lives. It changed Kayden's life just to, like this one dude. My dad had wind surfer for his birthday, and now we're in Maui. We got the shot. We got, I, when I was traveling, I was, I traveled for a million miles on American airlines, so like from that one, dude, I S both my brother and I have been so blessed, like just like seeing the world, doing all this fun stuff. And, it's crazy that a sport can take you, having fun. We'd sure we worked hard at it, but, we had the time of our lives just from this, from this one guy. That's awesome. That's a great story. Yeah, you should definitely contact him and say, tell him, Hey, look what you started. And our hope, my dad, mom and dad, both. Here and family grandparents just moved here. So it's pretty cool. Where in California, did you grow up? We grew up in like the worst spot ever for wind surfing. I think it was like sand in between San Diego and LA and then inland. It was like Riverside area and there's a couple of lakes around where my dad got the wind surfer. It was built. He was building houses in canyon lake it's called and is terrible for wind surfing, but still got us hooked, and not to, get all this, just from him doing it. We the first place I learned, I was like seven, so I was smaller than him. And they only had big gear back then, My dad had advanced to the ponds. This is like these two, 300 meter long ponds, percolation ponds out in the middle of the desert. And it was the windy spot where you could, you wouldn't get in trouble if you drifted downwind or whatever. And my parents have been learning on the original windsurfer and then they got smaller and smaller gear. And I remember one day I was just sitting in the car. I was like, so bored. I'm like, ah, dad, just let me try this short board, and they're like, no, you can't do that. You got to learn on the long board or whatever. And I'm like, just let me try it on. So board. And I remember it still, like probably the only thing that I remember my childhood, but I remember getting on the wind surfer and like somehow after watching them for so long, I just got on it and I went flying down this, the pond and my board as I was like reeling down full plane, like nine years old on this tiny Windsor for it. And I was just, was flying down it. And after that I was just like, oh my gosh, I want to do that again. I had to walk back, cause I didn't know what I was doing. I was just like, somehow just watched what they did and yeah, that little, first little glide, changed all our lives. Change your, your Maui because of that first sensation or a walk definitely changed my life too. Yeah. For that first sensation where you're like, oh my gosh, you're right. Harnessing the wind, something can't even see and the last you down the, down the water and it's a pretty cool feeling. Yeah. And then, yeah. That's awesome. Good. How does it feel when you're on the wing? You're like flying, right? Yeah. Maybe you talk about your very first experience when you first got on the wing foiler and how that was learning it. The first time I got on the lane foil, I didn't really get up on foil, like I just got up and then I fell and then three or two days later, I got up on foil and I went all the way in on foil. And I was just like, this is the best sport ever be better than surfing. And then since then, I just kept going every day and, yeah. Awesome. So before you started winging filing, you never foiled before, that was how you learned how to foil as well. Yeah, that was the first time I learned how to foil or actually I think I went out with you yeah, that was the first spoiling experience I think I had. So Caitlin, how do you know, how about how much you weigh I'm about like 85 pounds, 85 pounds. Can you talk a little bit about the gear you use now? What size board and winging and foil. Yeah I've been using like, I used to be always like the guy I'm the biggest way now. And now I realized that the smaller, as a way, you can do more tricks and spins with it. So my go-to has been two eight. And so what is, what brand is the one that you're using? The two eight I'm using the gastro wings, because they're like, they're not super, super stiff. It's like you can, when you do this stuff, they'll then you're in the ways that you need them to. And that's super nice for me because I'm such a stiff wing. It would be really hard to do the flips because it would just want to, not it wouldn't bend for me two eighties, that pretty much all the time. Or do you have a bigger wing for lighter wind and the smaller one for stronger wind? Or how does that work? Yeah, I have the two way is for super windy conditions and then I have three, five and four too, and then actually took my brother out foiling on five two. And I don't think I ever want to do that again. Such a big waste. Did you see that, that, did you post the video or just the shot? Yeah, let me share that. And so there's a photo of you and your Instagram account. This on here is pretty cool. Cause I took the photo, but Yeah, they went out and it was really light wind day. It was, I think his grandpa's birthday. Huh? We were all down there kind of cruise in with my dad for his birthday. And I went out and this is funny. Like it was too light for me, so I drifted downwind and then this guy comes running down the beach. It's oh, I'll get that for you. And he's like sales, a backup. I'm like, Ooh, this is a, little humbling of this helped me out, but way better than carrying it back up. So I didn't care. And then he gets and he's because when he was 4, 3, 4 or five, something like that, I took him windsurfing and we did a tandem. And we were like going out. I had a great time. He looked like he had a great time and his is his mom and dad are little conservatives. And so when I took him out, I was like, we are going to full speed out doing big old jumps and stuff. We actually jumped so high. We broke the board together. So that was pretty funny. And then it was cool. We'll see him take out his little brother and at first they're going and I'm like, come on and get him on the foil, just get them on the foil. And finally got up and they're like cruising around on the foil. And then they even did a job on the didn't even, like who we does that I can't. Do a job on the foil barely. So it was pretty fun to watch. That's a huge win for you to an ad board, yeah. It's like the belt size. Yeah. It was huge everything because the first time I took them out, I was on a go for at one 30, with a 17 and a half tail and the 36 inch max. And then I went back out on the Eva friendly and the Kai tail and I'm just like, oh, this is so much lift. And then I got up and next time I want to try a smaller foils. I w I want them to put foot straps on the thing so they can do big airs. That's cool. So you using gold foils, gastro wings and who's making your boards? Fabian I don't know how to pronounce his last name, but Fabian's making my boards. That brand is taboo and yeah, we're doing lots of experiments with the boards and I really like that. Do you have one of your boards there that you can show us how it looks and stuff to shape? So I guess you'd also so after you started a wing filing, you also started prone, surf, foiling. Yeah. This is my circle board and I also wing it and I love this board for wave riding and stuff cause it's really turny. And then it has. Nice nose and rocker and all that stuff. It's the bottom shape too. It looks like a double concave, pretty hard edges. And then a kind of concave rails with concaves and then show us all what the size and volume is about on that board. I think this board is 25 leaders and it's a four. Oh. And then you just have two foot straps that are in the center. So do you, when you switch directions, you always switch your feet or most of the time, or with the feet in the same place. Or do you switch feed or do you keep them in the same position? Mostly I switched my feet most of the times, because when I do the back flip, my feet are switched in goofy foot, but I'm regular flip. That's also what made the back foot a lot, little harder. So can you do the back flip going both directions? Can you do going into, I haven't tried yet because I haven't really got like a good ramp to do it often. Cause it seemed like Jeff, like Jeffrey, Spencer, does this backflips always going in right. Coming in? Yeah. I want to try I'm up on a wave or like a wind shop. Yeah. I was talking to the guy Tetouan Galera from new Caledonia. He, they had a contest and they were doing back flips in saltwater, basically straight off shore, wind, total salt water. And there were, I guess it's definitely possible to, you just have to really get some height and push off on the jump, yeah. I want to try it on flat water, but I'm scared. Yeah. Yeah. It's here with a shorter mask cause you can rotate it. What you didn't talk about your foot and then maybe yeah. Maybe show us your foil set up to what length, how long is your mask? My master's at 36 inch max. Oh, that's pretty long. Yeah. It's really long. But for the flips and stuff, I was on a 32 here and I'm on the L 100 for 'em go foil and the 12 and a half tail. That was what I did for the flip. And then I also was on the TKR 80 for that one video that you were showing of the flip, a nice changes or what you're hoping to do in the future. I am hoping to like, make some foil, I don't know how it would be shaped or what, but this was for surf boiling and wink boiling too. But I would want something that turns. Super well, and then pumps super well for surf boiling. And then for weighing foiling, I would want something fast and really turn. So I like turning. Yeah. So fast, probably thinner than her profile and so on. Yeah. But yeah, that's one nice thing about the Gofoil stuff is Alex is down at the beach and he's been very generous to Kayden, like with prototyping stuff. Then before Kayden this guy, it was a he's a bit stubborn on changing stuff. Once he like something he's nah, not going to do it. I'm going to go on my four, two are going to go on my 42. And I was telling him, I'm like, oh, okay. Didn't you need a smaller wing. You can go higher, faster. And this and that. And then yeah. Alex will be like, Hey, maybe you should try this. Maybe you should just try that. And then yeah, but it's great to have Alex. Alex is such a pioneer of foil design and so on and always experimenting and tinkering. So it's yeah, for sure. Yeah. So w what do you mean by pop when you say you want the foot to have popped? Is that just like to get more height when you jump kind of thing popping out of the water? I I think more pop for me. It's usually like a short tail, like really sure there, cause I can lift out of the water and I already have a lot of pops, so I like, and I think more prof would be great. So that those are the fails of the Backwoods. Okay. You can go from May 8th, ourselves to June 8th and the totally nailing them. So what are you doing differently now? What were the mistakes that you were making at first, this not getting high enough or rotating the sale differently? Or what do you do differently? Not do you know? Yeah, I was rotating the sale where I would put it behind my back like that. And then I would like, you see how I put it, like behind right there. And now I'm like letting it go under me. And that helps a lot with the rotation. And then I just needed a little more. That was at the Harbor too. So that was Flatwater and that was pretty flat wide. Like this one, I had a little ramp to make it look so easy. Yeah. Amazing. But yeah. And actually, let's talk a little bit about the this other move the Upland or the upwind 360 or Slaka, and it looks like you're doing these ones now where you rotating them rotating the other way and then flipping her on. So like first rotating and then doing that, the Flocka move. So can you talk a little bit about that move and how, break it down for us? Yeah. I think with that, that first tweak right there. I do that too. It helps me almost get a faster rotation because I like go and then they just fit, lining up the spring kind of thing. Yeah. And then it also cause before when I used to do them, I would do them straight, like out of the water. But I've been realizing that it's a lot easier when you jump, wait, and then when you start coming down, then you do it. Okay. So it's like in windsurfing when we do forwards, like sometimes you do you go up first and you stall and then you throw yourself into the rotation. So maybe it's. Yeah. So I've been working on that moves too, and I've been pulling off maybe one out of 10 or something like that, but do you have any tips on for me, I always struggled with the landing and the CA the wind coming around and then like what, do you have any tips on that? Yeah, I think what I do is I really try to keep the wing as high as I can, so that it doesn't hit the water and it helps a lot to have the small, the smallest wing that you can be on. And, yeah, it definitely like with the rotation, it's a lot easier with a smaller wing and then it spins better. And for the landing, yeah. It just like it a whip you around in that last part. And then that'll pull you right up on, back onto the foil. Have you tried doing this move on, on the, on a wave? Yeah, I've done some on the waves sometimes. Like I can't really get up on foil straight away. What I did on that one. It's hard to do that for me. So most of the time I would do it land and then I would have to like pump and then I would go out the back of the wave, but then I would just go back into it and trying to figure out too. It looks like he almost pretty much rotating the wing at the very end. Like when you. When your foil already touched the water, like the last part of the rotation, really? Through the wind. Yeah. I liked doing that because since it has a forward momentum, it'll just be straight up onto the foil, like what I did there. Yeah. It's amazing how you just pull out of it right up on, back on the foil again, without like, when I do that, I don't I do the last part of the rotation almost in the water and while I'm bringing the wing around it and then pump myself back up, but it's almost like I stop new kind of still moving forward on the landing. So it's pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. That's why, like, when you do the wing rotation for their further, towards the bottom, it'll give you that forward momentum to get back up on the foil. Yeah. So and what about the wing? Do you have any tips for like how you hold the wing or do you try to have less power in it? Or what I try to do is I tried to, I try to go off of a little chalk or something. And then when I do it, the, I like to do them in holes of wind, like where there's a hole so that you can rotate. So it's not too, you don't want super strong Gus when you're doing it, right? Yeah. I would rather do like underpowered, not because it's harder to do in super strong winds. I think too, though, his definition of strong lens is really strong because this summer it's been 40, 30 to 40 every single day. Yeah. Pretty crazy window. Over here on Molly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not too, it's like you bringing the wing through the wind after the foil touches down really or after you've already touched the water. Yeah. So it's pretty, pretty late in the move when you actually spin the wing around. Yeah, definitely. It, I liked doing it towards closer to the water. Because what sometimes, like when they do it above the water, I would just have a bunch of extra time to rotate again or whatever. And then I usually mess up or something. It looks like you almost pump it. It's almost like a pumping thing when you with that. Yeah. And that was the first fact loop I may ever. So then that looks like a pretty big ramp too. Yeah. I needed a bigger rant, more in the start. And there were some where I had too big of a ramp where I over-rotated an ate. So what happens when you over-rotate? What happened once was like, I did it and then I like had the perfect landing and then I like landed like that and back flopped and got the wind knocked out of me. I try not to go off of ginormous ramps anymore. Cause it really hurts land. Yeah. I've seen Zane Schweitzer does them like off of big ways that he'll keep by like really throwing himself backwards and it looks pretty, pretty crazy, but I guess that way you can definitely rotate all the way around. Yeah. I think the bigger, the way of the slower you have to rotate and back when I was first doing them, I would just rotate as fast as I could. So I did a lot of over rotation. So let's talk a little bit about based more basic stuff for a lot of the people listening are just getting into wing fighting. And then also actually Kevin, maybe you can talk a little bit about your first experiences with four thing with the wind surf board and what are the challenges and so on and any advice you can. Yeah, I think for me, the, actually for me, I think the wing is almost the easiest platform to learn on because you even when T with like, when I was first towing, because I thought, oh, that's going to be the easiest you're in control. You're in the jetski driver is in control. Like you just want to let go a little bit, slow down a little bit with the wing. You can just let it out where, if you're on a, behind a boat or whatever, it takes a lot of coordination, especially in the swells, like maybe on a Flatwater it's different, but I was always learning on the waves and no for me, the wind surfers, it's pretty fun going back and forth and stuff. Actually the other day we were out at . Yeah. I heard about him doing backflips. So I'm like, Aw show and how to do a back flip with the Windsor for, so doing that. And it's interesting to watch his rotations and stuff, and there's just so much lift with those boils. If you get them in the right, right way, you can just flip off with nothing. So the wind surfer. Yeah, it feels to me when I'm doing it on the winter, it feels super low, but then you see a picture of it and maybe it's cause you're 36 inches off the water when you start or something, but it looks high. Yeah. It definitely a lot lower than what it is. Yeah. Even like your shots, you're going pretty dang. Huh? Yeah. It feels like I'm probably going four feet. Yeah. I think for, it's pretty fun how the foil can work through all the different sports, whether it's surfing or stand up. I think that's how my dad got into the foiling is he was doing standup paddling. And then, you paddle down tile, you get a little ride, his little glide, and then you're done unless you're Zane's weights or something back out in circles and stuff. You can pump out. Yeah. That's like a nice thing that I like about profiling is you can surf the wave in, it helps a lot with footsteps, but you can surf the wave, like you're surfing regularly, but then when you kick out, you don't have to paddle all the way out. You can just pump to the next wave or pumped back out to the lineup. You should see this kid's legs. They're like, look at his muscles. They're like math for 11 year old was down the beach. And, he comes in and he's got six pack, abs muscles ripped off. And you're like, dude, what are you doing? And just winging every day and using those muscles. That's great. So you said Kevin, you're just starting to wing foil. Yeah, I Do it, I did it with when my dad was down there for his birthday and stuff, but it's pretty fun. And the different spots, like in Baja where I was, it was perfect for winging, like a slower fatter wave, so you're get that cruisy feel. And like you said, you don't have to paddle back out, which is nice with the wing. If you're not a super oil back out person, which I'm not, but yeah. And just learning a little bit it's always fun to just different sports and stuff. And, I can go out and back and do tiny jumps, but that's about it. I think, I think having a windsurfing background helps a lot with wing foiling. You know what I mean? Because the wing handling is very similar. You do have to learn how to control the height of the wing. Cause that's, windsurfer it's attached to your board, so you just can cheat in and out. But this is like a three dimensional thing where you have to actually control the direction of the wing too. That's what I was thinking about one time with the wind surfer. If you can have those old wind weapons attached to the board twisted up, I wonder how it'd be fun to get one of those nowadays and see how it works, maybe that, it might just be some different, but it'd be cool to try one or see what it is. And, I was always thinking maybe because that's the hardest part is once you're on a Wade, you need to get rid of the power. If you have to smallest sale, you can barely get on the foil and. I dunno, the wind surfing with the waves is hard on the foil, I think. But again, I just probably need to do it more. And As going to ask you Kayden on your wing, it looks like you have like one of your straps is, or the handles is like a rigid handle in the back. Is that right? Or I don't, let me see if I have a closer video where it shows it's like a boom as the back one. And I feel like that's nice because you can move your hand, like whatever way you want. And it's nice for the three sixties and stuff. Cause sometimes you come down and like you're not in the perfect place. And you need to slide your hand forward, slide it back, but it, so it's just attached with like nylon straps or something though, or it's attached with just fabric that. Yeah. So it still moves around quite a bit. Yeah. I keep thinking it would be nice to have like rigid handles that are just give you really direct control of the wing, where they don't flop around at all. But yeah, that's what I wish think that's what I'm trying to work on right now. It's like making some more rigid handles. Yeah. W gash is actually coming out with they're scrapping the boot. They're making that gloom thing basically, but they're having it on with plastic. They're mounting it on, basically. Yeah. And then they're gonna put up carbon pipe in it and it only gets super rigid. Right now he's PTC wing. It's called it's psych New Zealand company that makes wings. And that's kinda my favorite right now. Do you do the blue planet boards or yeah. We make pho foil boards and Wingfield boards. We've been doing that for quite a while now. And yeah, those are good. Are they made on a wahoo or no we we make prototypes on Oahu. The production is in China. I've been looking into making boards here, but it's just so expensive. Just the overhead and the labor costs and stuff like that. It's and then yeah, regulations and permitting and all that kind of stuff. It's a nightmare. So I haven't made that step, but on Molly, I guess the cannery is a pretty cool place. Cause there's so much innovation coming out of there. Yeah. It's pretty wild. It just, now he seems to breed that in innovation of stuff, different athletes and different, from surfing the wind surfing to stand up paddling and it's wild to, to me, like how kind of wind surfing gets a shuffled under the rug. 90% of all the athletes from the last 20 years have come from wind surfing, layered rush Randall, all these guys, all wind surf, and whether it's their kids or whatnot, it's Alex amazing wind surfer, all and all the brands too are from Windsor thing, and the, and there's a lot of the technology as well. With, I think surfing's has been so stuck in, the polyester construction and thruster tens and whatever they get, it's just not a lot of innovation happening. And then when windsurfing came around, everybody was like trying so many different things and the whole composite construction and making boards later and stronger and all that kind of stuff. That all came from wind surfing not from surfing really. I think too it feels like wind surfers are more techie than surfing maybe. Maybe it's changing a little bit now, and the foil that's half the reason I don't really love the foiling is because for, 25 years, I was just tinkering with wind surfing stuff. And, it was pretty D when you're at the top level, couple of millimeters here and there, it makes a huge difference. So to come and start tinkering with a foil, I don't, it's a lot of work for me. So it's just. It's nice to come and you go out on the dad's stuff, it's all trimmed. Perfect. You just hop on it and go, and it works. And you're not like, oh, this change this. Now you're talking about millimeters and wind surfing. I think on the foil, it's even more, it's like micro millimeters. Yeah. You guys have so much less surface area in the water and like any little change makes the noticeable difference. Like even a half a degree angle in your tailwind can be noticed or whatnot. So it's pretty amazing if you do it any skinnier, it'll make it faster and better. I don't like slower. So do you, so Kayden, do you play around with that? Do you tend to play around with your first setup? Kevin was saying you liked it when you find something that you like, or that works. You just tried to keep the same thing. Now that like foils are getting so new technology and stuff, I've been trying a lot of stuff and I'm liking so much more stuff. And all these new foils that are coming out or Alex will bring him down, like a couple of different foils, like custom wants to try. And it's probably opening his mind a little bit, just to you just gotta try it, so I was learning a lot about Lyft and all that stuff. So it's all the homeschool year was also foil homeschool year. Yeah. Cool. I mean that, that's definitely a pretty high tech stuff that everyone's working on. I interviewed Kandel while too, and he's really into like foil design and computer design. And all that engineering type stuff I've been totaling in with my tow partners, Jason Polk, also another great. And we've been using cane stuff for the toe foiling. Again, Jason and I were just out there just Muppets, just like why can't we do this? Why can't we do this? Cause we, we're okay. Talented people and we'd be sharing it and we'd be like, oh, this doesn't work. We'd move it. Two inches didn't work. And we had Kane come out with one of his foils and we took it out and he's just boom gets it set up. And they're like, oh, there you go. Yeah, hold on. Something, two inches is probably like way too much, right? Yeah. We burned not clean. I got so frustrated with it, cause you're, especially on the toe in with the bigger ways that it's, yeah. The fi I'm not going in huge waves, you're going down that way so fast and it's pretty scary when the cane stuff is really good. Cause he, he's on it and he's, making custom foils up at the cannery up here and he knows what he's doing. So it's pretty nice to have a little bit more stability and for what we're doing, probably the production stuff. Isn't really, there's not many people that are towing with foils, out in Maui stuff. It's kinda cool to have him do some stuff with us. Okay. What something I always like to ask everyone is how much of your skills is like just natural talent that you have, naturally, and how much of it is, practice time on the water training. And I think Katie and I are very opposite in that answer where I for me, I'd take repetition. Like my windsurfing day is I was out there every day, any condition whatsoever, just hammering on it and that was what I think separated or put me into, world title scene is that I was like one of the first guys to my brother and I, and, we had a little group of people and we were the first guys to take it seriously. Like weren't going out partying weren't you know? Oh, it doesn't look good. We're out there every day, any conditions? Cold, stormy, oh, here comes a storm and Mally, which we don't get, oh, we're going to go chain for when we're in Europe. And we're in this miserable conditions we're out there. So we're he starts one thing even as mountain biking, when he was like four years old, he was like doing these huge jumps down the hill and he won't do it for two months and then I'll be better than me. And I'm like how did you do that? You didn't have even written your bike in six months. Yeah. I can think I have read with my team. Yeah. I know we have this cool mountain bike up in McWell forest, then you flow trail down. And I remember taking him up there and just this little tiny kid, just sending all the money. And maybe that's why you enjoyed the ring. Cause you get to jump so high. Yeah. Yeah. But even then with his backflip, you saw on may 60, tried it the first time and then on May 12th, he's landing up and now he's boosting huge stuff, so yeah. So yeah. But maybe you can answer it on Kayden. Like how do you feel? Is it talent or practice? My one talent that helps with everything that I do what's on the water is I would say I have pretty good balance. And that helps me with a lot of stuff. Yeah. I think too, he's got a trampoline, every kid who has a trampoline, it's pretty cool because you can do those backflips and. I remember you had a skateboard with straps on it, so you can visualize what do you think? Oh, cool. Yeah. I always think of balance as not something that you're naturally born with really, but it's something you can practice, right? So if you doing all that, if you're doing sports all the time, that require you to have good balance, your balance is going to naturally get better. And then that helps you with everything you do probably, right? Yeah. It's definitely if I didn't have good balance, I doubt I would be worried I'm down. What about visualization or like doing moves in your head? Do you do that? Do you try to visualize it before you get in the water? For me, I like try them in the water, like just with my weighing and without my board, I would just like visualize. Pulling the wing backwards. And then I did some, I do some flips on my trampoline, like with my hands doing the back flip and that helped me so much. Oh, you know what else I saw him do? It's pretty cool. Is winging with the one wheel that looks like a good thing for beginners on a one wheel for that. You just, but you get the feel of the wing. And then that's interesting. Baltz Mueller was saying the same thing. He was practicing his backflips on the trampoline before he was doing them on the water. Just to figure out the wing. Because that's pretty tricky. Cause you can really kinda get back winded or falling on top of the wing. That's the tricky parts. I bet I didn't take the wing on a trampoline, but I feel like it would definitely help with taking, knowing I'm a trampoline on a bigger trampoline. Cause mine's a lot smaller. It would be a lot easier than doing them with the foil, like straightaway and then landing on top of the way. Like my friend tried them straight away with not really knowing how to do a back flip on the trampoline and then he just couldn't get that flip dialed in. Now he knows how to do it on the trampoline, so he'll be landing. So he learned that, oh, he learned it on the trampoline and then he went. So for you Kayden, like what's a typical day, like for you let's say you're doing when you're homeschooling and just like a typical day for you? Homeschool for me, I would start at nine o'clock. So what time do you get, what time do you wake up? Do you wake up early or do you try to sleep until the last possible moment? Or I wake up at six 30, so I try to wake up early and then I do sometimes I just, I'm super tired and I don't want to get out of bed and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to go back some of the AAA to get my blood flowing. Then I go do that. And then I have breakfast. And then I sit and do stuff until nine o'clock and then from nine o'clock to 12 o'clock I do my homeschool. And then from my grandpa comes and picks me up at 1230. And then we go to an wing to like four. Then I come back here and clean all my stuff and put it where it goes and then same thing the next day. But if there's no wind, then I would probably wake up at six and then go prone for a Lang before school conditions are usually better early in the morning, Molly, where the wind kicks in. What about your typical day Kevin? What is your day look like? Pretty similar, except for, without the schooling. Homeschool. Usually I do a little computer work and see what's happening for the day. Check the conditions if it's, yeah. You have a morning routine. Like when you get up, do you do like exercises? Do you have coffee? Like I exercise my scrolling through the Instagram, wake up and get right on your phone and just look at Instagram. Yeah, I kinda recently I've been looking for a sailboat. That's been my like focus. I wanna, that's why I was on a wahoo. I was over there checking out boats. I got a slip down at my Elias. I need to get a boat in there. And I I have a van over on the mainland, the sprinter van, and a lot of exploring. That's like when I like go into Baja so much. Now my dream is to have that sprinter van in the water in a sailboat and kind of checked out the islands, be able to go over to a wahoo and, hopefully get these guys into exploring a little bit more, go over there and be able to, wing and kinda do fun stuff off the boat. So that's been my focus recently. All right. That's cool. So is this going to be for as a hobby recreationally? Are you also planning to do like charters and stuff like that? Or is it more time? Just the house it's hard right now. Cause for me. Maybe, but it seems like everybody on Maui is making money doing like Turo or this and that. And then I'm just like, I'm just cruising and I'm like, no, maybe I should do that. That's great. If you can, if you don't need to make money, that's good. To make money. Yeah. Good. So where do you see the future of the sport going? What for wing fighting? And what are your goals like? What do you hope to do in wink filings, Kayden? I'm hoping to learn how to do a front flip before I'm 12. So when are you turning? 12? August 17th. Okay. Yeah. That's enough time she learned to back slip in one month. So the other day I was down there's this guy dictionary, have you heard of that book? Yeah, he's doing a wing book. And so I went down to take pictures of of Jeffery and doing that forward thing and Finn and holy smokes. I'll be impressed to see you do that. Cause like we're like you guys were talking about with the the stall when he's doing the spins and stuff, like he goes up and, just goes up and then he kicks it out too and then throws it forward and was just like, whoa, like scary. Yeah. But I think it does look similar to doing forwards on the windsurfer. It's like you're throwing yourself sideways more than forward. But yeah. Are other people besides Jeffrey and them doing the forwards or yeah. Tetouan is doing it. I was talking to him about that. That was asking him for pointers and he's I don't have any pointers. I'm just trying to figure it out myself. I don't know yet on your podcast. Yeah, I interviewed him. I haven't published it yet, so that'll be all probably before your guys, this one goal post. So I always, it takes me a while to edit the footage after I do it all. So yeah, I enjoy interviewing more than the editing process, but cool. So what about D do you think you can Kayden that you're going to do this, as a job that professionally, like making money with wing funding or is it just going to be fun for you? Or what do you think? I have no idea what it's going to be. It's either I. I don't know. Do you think you're going to try to do any of those events like the world? What is it called? The world furthering tour or whatever they having those world championship events. Yeah. I want to do one here first and see, cause I think they're going to do one over here soon, or I don't know, but they're supposed to be one this summer for something, but I don't know if it got canceled or whatever, but I want to see how I do and one over here. I get really good. Then maybe I'll start doing this. I don't know. Isn't there like a full contest on Maui this last weekend? I thought there was like, I donated some prizes for full contest to be here. I heard about it in behind it. And it was just a standard era. Did it prone and stand up. And the second day it was supposed to be wind foiling. I dunno, you didn't okay. You should have done that. But the level over here, there's quite a few kids that are really ripping, like some of his friends, you're just like so that will be a good if there's a contest here, it will be pretty high level. Yeah, no doubt. I'm always, definitely the epicenter of the progression. So it's pretty wild him grow up here. Like we grew up on this tiny lake in the middle of California. I always say to my brother, I'm like, man, just imagine if we had this set up we're kids, we were done with it when it turned out to be pretty good. I think, I think one of the, what you guys had was that sibling rivalry, right? So like brothers, two brothers, you guys trying to do each other. So you always pushing each other. And I think that's also very valuable, I think, in sports, right? Yeah, for sure. That was like a hundred percent. That's for sure we were. We were best friends. We trained together, we lived together, we pushed each other, when we were young, he'd do a move and then I'd be like, oh, I can do that. And then he'd be like, oh, I can't let my little brother do it so better than me. So he'd push it. And now one cool story we had was when you were, he was 16, he just got his driver's license and I was 13 and 14 and my parents let us to take our van. My dad's. We had a Windsor fan. It, let us take it from Southern California, drive all the way up to the Gorge, just the two of us and spend a month up in hood river, just wind surfing and having fun. And I'm like, I couldn't imagine sending him. You're going to be like that. He has a younger brother too, obviously, so well, but he's right. Maybe when you can drive it, you can do stuff like that. Yeah. But still, that was like one of the best summers ever. So it's pretty wild that looking back like that my parents let a 16 year old and 13 year old drives, what is it? Thousand miles by themselves. And it's pretty fun. But we had, we learned a lot and we had a lot of fun. Is your, is Matt older than you? Or younger? Older? Yeah. Oh, so you were not even 16 yet. You were like 14 or 15 or how old are you? I was like, that's cool. And then you were friends around that, her old, like all our lives. We've been around older people, because windsurfers are old, but like our best friends were our parents growing up because they wanted to win. Sir, my parents are super young there. My dad just turned 70, I think. He was when we were 15, he, he was only 35 or whatever. I miss doing the mapping now, but, so he was super young and we wanted to go wind surfing. And so we were like, we want on the weekends at school, we'd rather hang out with my parents, then go party or whatever. It's pretty cool. Okay. I have a question for both of you guys. So for me personally, and I know this happens a lot of people, like some days you're on the water and everything's just like every you're totally in tune with your gear and the conditions and everything's working, you can pull off all kinds of moves and you're just in the zone. And then the next day, sometimes you'll go out in the same kind of conditions with the same kind of gear, but like everything, you're just like a kook and you keep falling in and nothing's really working. So how, and it seems like it's not necessarily like the conditions or the equipment. It's more like your state of mind. So is there any, anything that you do to get into that state of mind, or do you have any pointers on how to avoid being that kook, or changing your mindset from being a cook, to being in the zone? For me, I feel like I try to always be in the zone because every time that I'm feeling like I don't want to, I'm just not in the mood or I don't really want to go I'm super tired. Then I would just I wouldn't try any crazy tricks or whatever, or I would just not go winging that day. But the times that I do go in and I'm just not in that state of mind, I just I don't know. I land one move that's hard to do. And then I get fired up and I'm like, okay, now I'm good. Again, like that's I feel so sometimes you get into the zone while you're doing it. Like kind of thing, but yeah. And what about you, Kevin? Sometimes when you, that, that makes sense that not just don't go out when you're not, when you're not feeling it, but like sometimes if you're competing you don't have that choice. Like you're up and you got to go and is there a way you can switch from, how do you switch on that, getting into, I dunno, I wonder if that's like something I think that was one of my strong points competing is as I was like, never really the best guy, but I was always just there, and just keeping that mentality of just being steady and, going, performing at a level all the time. That's high and. There's those certain moments where you're in the zone, for sure. You always talk about it, you hear about it. And then, in your there's certain moments where throughout my career, where I was like, oh, man is what was he in conscious almost, I was just going through it. And that's hard to, it's hard to get into that, but, just happens, but I think just the more you train, the more confident you be, you are. And so I think that kinda just, for me, it was always the training and just going out there all conditions and always pushing yourself. I think Caden's a little more smart, smarter than I am he like when he's not feeling it, it just doesn't go well, I've always pushed through, don't be a whiner. Just go. Yeah, that makes sense. I know some people are, it seems like some people are actually better when they're competing. Like they get, they like, it pushes them to perform even at a higher level. Would you say you're like that, like we're when you're competing, you're actually better than when you're just practicing. I would say so. Yeah, for sure. For me, I was like, yeah, like I said, never really the like wildest one out there, but then when it came to game time, I would would be able to, land all my moves and my strategy was just do the moves that you can make. And, let the other people fall by the wayside. A lot of times these, I go up against these kids and they just be, sending it huge, which is cool, but then they would land it. And then I just do my little job and advanced a lot of times. Okay. So like a little bit playing it safe and doing the things, you can do and not trying to do crazy stuff that you don't really have mastered. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Kayden, would you say you're obsessed with foiling or is it just a hobby for you or would you say that obsessed and addicted to it or not really? I'm definitely obsessed with, yeah. So what is it about foiling that makes it so addicted. It just feels like you're flying basically. And that's like with surfing, it's really hard to get into the air, but, and when you do get an air, you're only in the air for a second, but, and then it was winging. It's just like when ever you're up on foil, it feels like you're flying. And then when you're in the air, you're also flying. So it's like, all right, I'm up on the foil? Probably I'm like in the air on foil, probably like 98% of the time. And then surfing I'm in the air, like 0.5% of the time. Yeah. What about prone foiling though? Even that you're on the foil a lot less than when you're winging for it. Yeah, but I love riding waves, like in any sport that has wave riding in it. I want to try it. And it's prone flailing. I'm starting to like that more than like when you're in perfect conditions. I like it more than surfing in perfect conditions. Because you have that glass, you smooth water, those perfect long wave rides. And you can like, when you're really good, like Kailani and Zane and all those people, you're up on the foil, like 50% of the time pumping around, and that's what I want to get to that level. I can pump out and touch like 15 waves before I get tired, but I get tired after five. So yeah, pumping back out is takes a lot of energy. I can't even imagine 15 ways, maybe two ways. That's pretty much it for me. That's awesome. So other hobbies and cross training and stuff, I guess you do mountain biking. Anything else you guys do for like when it's not, when you're not in the water, I guess not in the water. I have a one wheel and that helps with my balance and with the wing sometimes. Go and practice my tricks. And it's like a lot harder when you're on land than when you're in the water on the wing. So it definitely helps me like, get the moves dialed. And then I tried to go on the biggest wing that I can be on when I'm on land so that I can practice doing the bigger way. And then once I get like good at that, then with smaller wings, like it makes it so much easier because you feel like you can, you're spin super fast. And then that's like my biggest, my favorite thing to do on land is probably one wheeling and trampoline. All right. It's a question for both of you guys. So during the pandemic, a lot of people felt isolated and the kinda lonely or depressed whatever anxious being at home, being stuck at home. And I know for us, it's always easier to be like, ah, just go in the water and have fun and everything's fine, but let's say you, you're stuck inside and you can't go on the water or you can't go outside. What do you do to if you have an off day or if you're not feeling great, like what do you do to lift your spirits or to stay positive? On those days where it's like horrible for any sport and you just don't want to move or whatever. I usually like. Watch some winging videos of like new moves that I want to try. And then I like stop them and watch them over and over again. I see how they do it and then I want to do it like that. And then sometimes I play like board games, like monopoly. I love monopoly. It's it's fun. Thank you, Kevin. I guess a little computer time would probably be, I don't have, I don't have TV in my house, so not really a big TV watcher, but yeah, I dunno. We're so we've, it's bad to say, but for us on Maui, it's been just like the, I dunno, the best year ever having COVID, it was. So much fun, like all of the spots that normally are actually now it's back to normal, but like we'd go to twin falls, which is this little waterfall and you go there now there's like parking directors, like telling you where to park it's fault, blah, blah, blah. During COVID you'd just go out there. There's insane waterfall and be like two people, one person. And for me it was like probably the, it was the best year I've ever had on my, after 30 years. So you got to, I stayed here during the summertime where normally I go to hood river, to around in my band and explore. I stayed here on Maui and it's forced me to explore my backyard and there's so many cool spots out there, like just hidden spots, different spots. And I would take my E I'm an E biker. I love biking and I would just ride every day. I went out there so many times I can't even count. And I would just ride my bike and explore and explore and go to different waterfalls and different things. And so for me, the COVID was just. Unbelievable is awesome. I totally agree. Yeah. The thing about like that, the thing that I missed about traveling really was the adventure of seeing new things or exploring and things, but you really don't have to go that far to explore it and you can, yeah, you can go some, just go on a trail that you've never been on and it's oh wow, this is cool. So you can have an adventure without getting on a plane and sitting on a plane for 12 hours or whatever, you don't really have to go that far. And you're on a Waldo to like some, when like you would drive during rush hour and there's no cars on the freeways. Like what's going on there. I love this, get somewhere in 10 minutes that would take 45 minutes on a normal day. And also, I think it kinda like over here too, a lot of people are like, do, why do we really need 30,000 people arriving every day? Maybe $10 or enough, but I guess our economy is pretty dependent on tourism, but it sure is nice to have a little bit less traffic and less people everywhere and stuff like that. For sure. Here, I always said it's like the whole world was playing musical chairs of w where to go. And we won the game, like being in Hawaii is like, we're one that is pretty safe, I would say. And for two is the best place in the world to be this last year. As far as everybody's pretty healthy. And we were, I would say the rules were very relaxed compared to my friends in Europe, so it was pretty, pretty awesome spot to hunker down and and enjoy what the islands have to offer. Cool. So Caden, if somebody asks you what foiling is like, and they've never foiled, like how do you explain that sensation of flying a foil? Why would you say it's like the fly you're going to fly though? What if somebody does not to fly? Like just, it feels like once you get up on the foil, it's like the first time that you get up on the foil whinging, it's there's nothing else. Like it. Cause it's you the wing board and the toilet, and you're just floating across the water. It feels but those are the really good days for doing it in those flat water and not super strong ones. So what's it like when the wind is super strong, then it's a little bit more hectic, some nights for me, it's like I'm holding on for dear life, but then, it definitely balances out because there's spots on Maori where you can go, like when there's really light wind, there usually there's usually enough wind to get up on foil in Maui, like every day. Yeah. That's crazy. You lucky for sure. So who else should I interview on this? On the blue planet show about wing filing? Who do you think I should talk to? Alex started like the whole surf foiling thing. So I think that would be cool. Cause I just read this interview thing that someone typed out on a website and it was really cool to learn about all that stuff. So yeah. Yeah. I already Alex actually to be on the show, but he's been busy. So he said when he has some time, you'll let me know. Maybe you can tell him that he should get on the show. Anyone else you'd recommend talking to? What about Annie? Have you had her on there? I had any record on there right yet on the show. I'm trying to, obviously I'm trying to get Jeffrey Spencer Kailani. I don't know. Been able to get them on the show. They're busy, but I had seen Zane Schweitzer at Allen kid is mark Rapa horse. A bunch of people from Mali. There's a couple of cool guys on, on the mainland. Like Brian , he's one of the, he's a good winger and, pioneered a lot of stuff in California with the wind surfing. And now he's doing winging and he's into photography and video and he made all those used Houston make like side off video with doing all the, how tos and stuff like that. And then he switched to kiting and now he's in the wings. Okay, okay. Off slide on video. You can find them through that somehow. Okay, cool. All right. So yeah, that was awesome. So what are you goals with with your YouTube channel? Kevin? Just for fun. This kid loves that. I said D LA he's it's not called a B log. And I'm like, yeah, I knew that. I knew that, but I kinda like the logs better than blog anyways. So yeah. He's yep. I'm doing my new V log out here, guys in Mexico. But I think, I've been on YouTube for like over 10 years or, time. And it's I think the main thing is just being consistent, like posting on a regular basis, like maybe once a week or even once a month or whatever, but just always coming out with new stuff and not, that's the key, I think just then people start following you and once you have subscribers and your videos get more views right away, and then that's how you build limit 10, but it takes years mean really it's hard for me cause I just see on Maui, it's just the same thing, for years and years, but that's where it cool. The log is, you can show your personality and different stuff and it's not just like this beautiful imagery, I'm I've been in the making videos for awhile and stuff. So I get if I don't do it like to perfection, a lot of times like a nice, like I love John's stuff. View or whatever,

Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour have been on a roll, posting two great instructional videos per week and helping lots of people getting started in the sport.  They are humble but are clearly exceptional humans and motivated by a desire to help people. Interview transcript: Hello friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the blue planet show. in today's show. I'm interviewing Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour.  We talked about their background, how they got into watersports, wing foil technique and equipment, what inspires them, and how they love to share their stoke with others, watch it here on YouTube. Or you can listen to it as an audio only podcast, just search for "Blue Planet Show" in your favorite podcast app. Today is June 19th, 2021. And this month you've been posting two videos. Every day. One video is part of our video contest and one of our blue planet videos. So I hope you can join us for the daily videos contest and our blue planet daily videos. We're going to decide the contest winner on August 14th with a $2,000 price. So to enter, please check out the link below. And send it to your submission. Today's guest Damien, and when are amazing human beings, they're very humble, but I'm stoked to have him on the show. If you've winged foiled at all. You've probably seen some of their great, amazing instructional videos. They do a great service for the sport. And so without further ado, here are Damien and Gwen, Damien and Gwen, welcome to the Blue Planet Show. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started a little bit with your background. Maybe Damien, tell us a little bit about, how, where you grew up and how you got into water sports and all that. One, thanks so much for having us and we appreciated and how I got into water sports. Technically I've been in water sports since I was like two, but I grew up a ski racer in Colorado, which was on snow a little bit different, but truthfully. Really get involved with the water. Much until my like teens. I was training in Mount hood, Oregon, and I would go to the Gorge. I'm sorry, I'd go to the coast and boogie board. And I thought surfing was way too hard. And boogie board was like the coolest thing ever. And yeah, it just more from there. I saw kite surfing. I was a big ski racer. And kite surfing was the unknown and yeah, I that's kinda what got me into it was ski racing, seeing it in hood river training at the gore training in Mount hood and visiting the Gorge. And I had some injuries, he racing and went to Florida, Naples, Florida. And my best friend in Naples was flying one of these kites. And I didn't know him at the time and I walked up and he just handed it over and he's oh, you gotta try this. I was just like, whoa, what is this? And for that's where it started truthfully. I'd say how long ago was that when you got into college? Ah, man, that's I was 18, so for like close to 21 years ago. Yeah, it was at the beginning. Things were super, truthfully, even in the Gorge, people wouldn't talk about it. It was all wind surfing and you'd see one or two guys, which for sure was probably like Corey Rosler and maybe Lou like visiting or something, but nobody was doing it. Nobody would do lessons, nobody would talk about it. And and my buddy in Naples happened to buy a kite and just learn on his own and it was awesome. And then I got connected with Cabrina right in the beginning and was just been super blessed ever since. And I've been riding with that company for a long time and just incredible family, credible group of people and just super grateful because I was able to become moral champion and do all sorts of things in the sport. But more than that, I was able to give back and. Share the knowledge that I've learned throughout my incredible adventures. I'm now back with people, which is the most rewarding thing you can do. And I read that at one point you were kiteboarding world champion. Yeah. I just did everything. I tried everything so racing and speed and freestyle, big air and way everything. You just do it all when you're just into it. And I won a solemn, a world championship which was racing around some buoys in Spain and yeah, for me, I just always wanted to challenge myself. That was it. So as long as I could keep challenging myself, I would stay excited about the sport. So it didn't matter what I was doing. I was always excited about it versus I see a lot of people get really hooked on freestyle and then they just burn out and, ends quick. So for me, I was lucky to get into foils and just always keep trying something different. Cool. So where did you grow up in Colorado? I was born here and Vail, Colorado. And then I moved when I was 10. We had a fly fishing business in Alaska, so it halfway in the summer I would work with my family and Alaska fly fishing, which was a business we own. And then half the summer I would train in Mount hood. And then I just, we moved everywhere, Idaho, Montana. You name it all over the world, so we're very, it was exciting time and I'm very grateful and it was a neat childhood and hopefully I can share it with my new little baby girl. Awesome. So you have, you're married and have a daughter or? Yeah, I just had a little two month old little nugget and she is just. I don't know, everybody tells you and I'll say it to everybody out there, you don't know until you have a child, but, I was so driven in all these directions, do all this stuff. And when you have this like thing that you created and for sure there's, lack of sleep, but it's the most beautiful thing you could ever do. Awesome. Yeah. All right. Thanks for sharing that. What about you, Glen? Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Yeah I grew up in France and in Brittany next to the ocean. So I grew up surfing and wind surfing my browser got me into it. And then when I graduated from college and I was about to travel for work that's when I started kite surfing, because wind surfing was just like, I don't know, but at the time if you were a windsurfer, there was I dunno, you had your community and you maybe didn't really want to transition kiteboarding. But for me, I had always been very interested in what it took was just like traveling and be like, okay, I need to like, be able to, like travel whiskey and make it a lot more convenient. So that's when I started. Guide thing. And I was working as a Marine engineer, so on ships traveling around the world and I've always been really passionate about the ocean. And so I really wanted in everything I do, I want to use my skills in a way that easier help people or help the planet. And so as a Marine engineer, I joined a nonprofit called . It's a conservation ocean conservation, nonprofit, and that's when I left France and went to Australia to work on the ships and I met a girl, I didn't speak English at the time. I'm in a girl, an American girl, she's now my wife. And that's how I ended up in the U S so I never imagined I would come to the us. I remember growing up. Like looking at magazines and how why and all of that. And I was like, just dreaming and and then, like seeing my life now it's like unreal, but everything started all there was a huge shift when I met Damian. So last year I was living in Idaho and because my wife is from there and I came to Florida to buy a van. And I had been following Damien for awhile on, on Instagram. And I reached out to him. I was into videography, either video, refu business in Idaho. And I was like, Hey do you want to make a video? I'm going to be here for two days. But I was thinking like this guy is we're a champion. Like he's not going to reply to like me. A video of refer from Idaho, but your dad, he replied, he was like super nice. And he was like, yeah, like for sure let's do it. So we made a video and I edited it and then Damon loved it. And I was like, okay, I sing there is more to do. So we were really aligned in, in our values in and you, our mission which to me is always using my skills in whatever I do to, to help and to make it like meaningful. So we really connected. And then that's when we started to work on some videos together to really help people, especially, it was the perfect timing when winning was like picking up. So we were like, let's create something to help people whinging and living their best life. Like we do. This was back like, so when did you guys meet? That was about a year ago. You said that was last year in September and that's when we met, but then I went back to Idaho and and then came back in three, nine in December. Okay. And so before that, you also did a video videography for like wind surfing, kite surfing, things like that. Yeah, I would say not I was always just most of my business was just videography and I was taking, anything. Being based in Idaho, I was a lot of, it was not involving what your spot, but when I would travel to Maui I connected with people. I would always try to that was my passion, but when I met Damian, he just took it to the next level. Yeah, I think I saw somewhere too, that you were into ultra running and things like that, like during sports, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I did a lot of things in my life firefighting. I was in the military and I did love stuff. And then running, I took running because I was based like for a while I was like away from the ocean and I needed something to do. And running was like the most conveniencing because you can do it anywhere. So I picked up running and not being like so passionate about running, but I was like, how can I challenge my. Was running that's pretty much, what I can do right now. And so I did a lot of or like I did a few, like a hundred mile races, which is very challenging, but it's a great experience where you find yourself in a hundred mile race. For sure. Robert, I have to try him in Glen, ran a hundred miles in firefighting outfit. I'm just letting you know, on a hundred miles in for firefighting. That's hard core. So when you met Damian at you, you had already had a YouTube channel and you've been actively making videos for a while, right? Or was that kind of a new thing? Yeah, no, I had been oh you talked to. Oh, it was just, both of you, but yeah, it was funny cause yeah, to build that kind of a YouTube following and stuff like that, it takes usually takes more than a year. Just wondering before, before you guys met what were you doing? And yeah, for me, I, my whole career was obviously competing in the beginning and as a competitor, any young athlete out there, there's always somebody good coming along, so you gotta keep your options open. And for me, I got into sales right away and became a sales rep for some brands. And so I was still competing and working. So I had a full-time job, but I also was still competing and it was a perfect match because it makes you work hard at what you do. And also you get the reward of playing and doing the best you can do competitive. And YouTube. Yes I had a YouTube channel forever. I had all the social media is you have when you're an athlete, never anything big on YouTube. I just did it to do it. I loved making videos. It was like a passion of mine, but I wasn't never had enough time and was working probably most of the time. And so I enjoyed capturing unique angles or unique things or building new mounts or capturing something different. That's where my passion was. And I was lucky to ride for companies like GoPro and connect and do really cool things. But my YouTube thing was never a thing. And When I ran into Gwen, he said it best, and that was our personalities. Like we're in sync. We just were out to help people in my whole entire life has been that and to be able to share and give people their best life and motivate people and get them out and get them up off the couch. And even if it's the simplest thing, it may not be wing surfing or whatever it may be, but just to motivate people to get out. I think a lot of people think athletes or, wealthy people or whatever it may be. Don't struggle, everybody struggles. And it's a matter of just surrounding yourself with good people and taking the step to get over that problem, whatever it may be drinking or depression or who knows. And so that, that's what stems this and Gwen is, just the perfect fit of somebody who's same motivation. W we can go to the beach and bang out 10 videos and just have so much information because we're so passionate about it because we know it helps people. And that's really it. If it helps one person it's good enough for us, and for sure, we'd love to help as many people as we can. And it's a privilege to be able to work for somebody like Gwen. Who's so passionate. And truthfully, I'd say in four months, we. In four months, we created a YouTube channel for sure. It was, I think my YouTube channel was many years old, but just never did anything with it. And now our goal is to help people and inspire. Yeah, it's awesome. I really like you're all thinking about sharing the love and happiness and stuff like that, it's a pretty big goal, but I think, obviously with that kind of passion and enthusiasm you guys have for it it's great to see that. And and yeah, I really good quality tutorials too, that you guys put together a nice cinematography and all that stuff. And I've been doing that too for a long time and some help, but obviously you guys are doing kind kinda on a whole nother level. I think like just, really good quality and it's not easy to do, and it's not like you make a ton of money. Posting free videos on YouTube. Sometimes people think that YouTube is get paid millions of dollars. Like some of the guys do, but not at the level we're at right. It's probably just enough to buy all the gear that you need to buy. think we're probably still in the hole for sure. But this is a passion project for both of us, for sure. And in Gwen's truly the just incredible, he sees the, he sees it all and puts it together and I'm just OCD and I just can't stop talking. So that's about it. I think what was special when I met Damien I was only like we, we had together for just one weekend when we first met and what kind of what I found like special was like, the man was like, so like connected with everybody at the beach. And I think that. That's that's when I saw like the potential of of just like being able to help people on, on, on any level, because sometime, if you are like like Damien, like world-class rider world champion, you might be a bit disconnected from the people at the beach, but Damien is so like you go to the beach and the man is always going to be helping anybody. I think the first weekend, like there was a guy that he was getting into. And had maybe some issue with his foil and Damien went to him and help him getting his full set up. And I'm like, this guy is we're on champion and a rock staff, and he's going to help a guy that, it's, I think to me that was like very special. And I was like, okay, if we are going to be able to do something like very special and help people and it's going to be meaningful, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. You guys doing a great job, so actually let's talk a little bit about kinda getting into wing foiling and common issues. People that people have and like tips for beginners, basically, people that want to get into it. They're not really sure what to do. And what do you tell people that are just starting. I would just say, for anybody out there look, everything you, you do in life. That's new, you're unsure. So like you've got to take a chance and all I'd say is most people that take a chance with this, they actually really enjoy it. And I would say, just get yourself a wing and you can play with it on the beach. You can play with it anywhere. There's wind on land, board, skateboards, snow water, sup you don't need to buy all this stuff right away. Just get yourself a wing and start playing with it. And to me, your kids can play with it. You can jump off stuff obviously within reason. But yeah, that's kinda, my, my tip is just give it a shot. It's I think you'll be shocked with what can, what doors it can open. That's my first piece of advice. Yeah. So we're just watching this video here on YouTube. Obviously it's good to just watch a lot of your instructional videos before trying it. But I think a lot of times, yeah, the, one of the mistakes that people make is this going in the water right away before they learn basically to handle the wing and they think they can just do it. And then, every time you fall in getting back on the board and you get really tired quickly, and then you can't, it's hard to learn that on the water. The more you can figure out the wing handling on land the better. And, but what are some pointers you have? It seems like beginners always have a hard time with the catching, the tip of the wing and then the wing flipping over how do you coach people to avoid it? Yeah, I think the biggest tip that we have passed around, that's a very helpful for everybody is we always just say whatever direction you're going, punch the water or punch, punch the ground. And what that does with your backhand is make that wing fly. Because most people just pull in, it's I'd say kite surfing or other things, everybody's reaction is to pull in and if you actually steer your back, hit back hand, it makes that wing fly above your head. So it has a lot to do with just slowing down your front hand and steering with your backhand, but we always would say, punch the water, punch the ground. If you're, if you feel like that wing tip is going to catch, cause all you're really doing is just turning that wing to lift up. And that was a really helpful one. And I'll be Frank with everybody. I struggled for three days straight and I consider myself pretty skilled and I got murdered at this. I didn't grow up wind surfing. So it was like all new to me. And I did exactly what you said. I went straight into the water and I was like, I can figure this out. And I couldn't even get up on the board cause I couldn't fly the wing. And it took that process of just getting beat to, to realize that I should fly the wing a little bit more and build my way into it. Yeah. It's probably something you just have to pretty much do as get humbled a little bit to start with, so maybe if you think you can just do it, just go in the water, get humbled a little bit and then you'll figure out that you should learn it on land for us. Like we don't really need to tell people that an interesting thing is in the video that's playing right now we see Damon and Carrie Kelly is my sister-in-law and Kelly grew up in Idaho. She has never done any water sports. She has never really been in the water. Like no surfing, no no wind. Nothing in the water. And when I came here I started winging and she got interested and she wanted to learn and now she's doing it and it's been, yeah, it's been like about five months. And, but within three months, like she was like up and falling both ways. And she learned falling with the wing. Sometime the easiest way is definitely falling or I'll behind a boat, which to just, she just went straight to the wing. And so that, it shows that it's possible. You don't have to have experience doing something else, but for sure don't expect this to be easy. It's helpful anybody, but the truth is if you put in the time and you keep trying and you go and, whenever you can, you will get it at some point. So for sure, Yeah.  It's not an easy sport to learn, but it's definitely not impossible to learn, obviously. Especially if you have, some instructions and stuff like that, people. Yeah. It's funny. Cause people, when they start to foil, they always think oh yeah, I watched a bunch of videos, so I can see what they're doing. I can do it. And especially people that already know how to surf and stuff like that. And then they pretty much get humbled the first time they try it, it's definitely not, it's definitely very different from surfing. And and even with the wind surfing background and knowing how to foil already, it took me a while to learn it. Although I think for me, because I already knew how to foil and I could wind surf, it was a pretty quick learning curve, but yeah. If you have no experience with any wind sports and so on, then yeah. It's not, it's basically like you have to learn two things, foiling and weight when you're handling together. Yeah, for sure. And Gwen, he was funny when I first met him literally the day I met him, I think I gave him my winger. He's never tried it. And I'm like, I don't know. This guy seems awesome. Super genuine. I was like, take my gear and I, and it was blowing like 30 knots. He just went and he gave it a shot and that's how it started. It was awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, to me like the most important, when you do anything is like going out there and doing it. I never wait until things are perfect to study, it's if you want to get into running but you, I'm not gonna go on the run until you have the, the new shoes, the GPS watch the running shorts. For me, I'm like I want to start running. Okay. Let's do it. And maybe I'm going to go out with the wrong shoes. Okay. I figure it out on the way and along the way I make it better, but. Sometime I think one mistake that can be done is just never starting because of waiting to have every single line up perfectly. I think to me it's better to stop and have the wrong gear, have the wrong condition, but go out there and learning by making mistakes is actually a great way to learn. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It definitely sometimes people, and I think the same is true with being on YouTube. Sometimes people think they have to have a recording studio and perfect camera gear and whatever. But really a lot of times, like the way I started it was just like shooting some phones. Shooting some videos on an iPhone and then posting it. And it was, it's more about the con creating content that, that is helpful to people I think is the most important thing, really, not having perfect video, but you guys definitely do a good job on both sides. And actually, so Gwen, I'm gonna stop the screen share on here for a minute, but for you, it's, I think 6:00 PM here in Hawaii, it's like noontime. So it's a little bit early to drink beer, but I noticed that you showed us the beer can earlier. So can you, so this is really cool. It's a Cabrina drift and BU it's a collaboration between Airstory brewery based in Charleston and Cabrina, and basically it's a program called project. So it's a it's a project called new found freedom. And basically it's to help people with disabilities maybe amputee or mental disabilities or any kind of disability to help them get it. Guiding and whinging. Or the prostate from GSBM is going to to finance this project. And so last weekend we were actually in Charleston and it was a 11 participant, a lot of them from special forces they've got hurt and maybe he's yeah, like missing a leg, two legs and we got them into guiding and winging and it was like, amazing. So yeah, this is just to, to finance this project. And it should be available in many places. But for now I think you would have to go to the brewery as story. It's a story. Yeah, it's for a brewery company in China. Yeah, that's sounds great. Earlier I heard like birds chirping and stuff like that. Are you like in the forest or something like that? It sounds like you're like out in nature or something. Yeah, I'm outside on the deck. But I'm here in Cape Hatteras with even niche from Cabrina. We are filming some content with Kia, he and yeah, a bunch of writers. I saw he a couple of weeks ago on the north shore. He's so he's in on the east coast now? Yes, he's here. He's here we are. Yeah. We are like doing some filming and unfortunately this week we have no wind, but hopefully wind picks up. Okay. How come Damian's not. He didn't make, he didn't make the cups. Okay. All right. Let's talk a little bit about then more advanced stuff in wing filing. So I saw you recently just posted a video on doing three sixties, so I'm gonna, I'm going to pull that one up here, how to do a 360 video. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the progression and tricks you're working on and maybe walk us through this one. Yeah. I just down the street 60 I, I Damien get me into trying new stuff and actually like the funniest thing is often when we make a video about something, I'm filming I'm behind the camera, but I actually learn a lot from just filming it and then I go out there and I try it. Like we made a video recently was how to work the dog guiding it's when you dumb your kid in the water, you're falling, you dumb the cat and you keep writing it and you launched a guide again. I filmed it and then right after they in was like, all right. And then. When it's going to go out there and try it. And that was not even like part of the plan. He just said it at the end of the video. But then I went out there and tried it. So yeah it's really fun. Like filming was Damon act or sold them a lot of stuff. And I go out there and try it. Yeah. That's awesome. I just saw Damien, you have your it's your daughter, right? This is a, the reason why I'm not up and the truth is Gwen's been teaching me stuff. So he's actually teaching Evan, everything up there, but really what is taking over, he is the cream of the crop, a father. This is a little Ava, she's our little nugget and I'm super blessed. I have a wonderful family, beautiful wife. And yeah so Gwen's teaching Kiani and a few things. So when you have kids also, you're fine. No. I'm I'm married, but no kids. No. Okay. Yeah. I find whenever you have I talked to about this about with keen to wild as well, and you said that when you talk about weed foiling and get all into it and think about it, stuff like that then, and then you get on the water. It's everything comes easier if you have that, the right mindset to start with. So we're talking about if you're on the way to the beach, listening to a podcast or something, or like a conversation like this kind of gets your mind in the right place and gets you stoked. And then probably the same thing when you're shooting a video and then getting the instructions and then trying it for real. So you guys have been making pretty quick progress with the wing flow. You know what I mean? Like we were saying, we were talking about how it's not that easy to learn, but once you figure it out and you progress pretty rapidly, it seems what do you agree with that? Yeah. I, here's what I would say. And, we spoke a little bit about it, but I would say there's a lot of people that are nervous about going to the beach and struggling and looking bad because they may have been a good kite surfer or maybe a good something, whatever. They're just worried about looking bad. And I always am like, okay, everybody's been there, so just go be there and you'll progress. And I say that truthfully in the best thing you can do is just go talk to people because everybody's usually willing to help or give a tip because they like to share the same passion. You, myself, Gwen, everybody likes to share information and help somebody. So I think you'd be surprised and maybe a lot of people are shy to talk to somebody. And I would always say, man, talk to people, ask questions and just watch it learn. Maybe you'll get some information, but I would say yes. The wing foiling sport is just evolving super fast. The first thing I wanted to do right off the bat was backflips and I'm still working on the backflip because. It's one of the scariest tricks that I've done, period, across the board in everything I've ever done, just cause it's I don't know you, the Chi you can hang from things. The wing is just I feel like there's just nothing there to hang you. So it's pretty wild if it goes wrong, but it's the sport's evolving incredibly fast. You're doing it in places nobody would think. And you're pulling surfers in that are foiling, and now they're like it's windy. Why not get a wing? So it's completely doable. And intercostals lakes, gusty places, mountains, absolutely endless. So that's why it's super unique. And it's just a great thing. You can share it with the whole family. Yeah. I think there is like a unique like opportunity right now to get into winging. And the amazing thing is, most people are like getting into winning, so everybody's progressing together. It's a new spot. So I think it's really fun, like right now to get into it because you figure out things like in the same time as everybody, where if you maybe sat in 10 years then, yes, there would be like more resources to progress, but I think it's really fun to be like progressing as the sport is progressing as well. For sure. And just to have the gear improving so much, like the foils are getting and the wings are getting so much better so quickly. So actually, so let's talk a little bit about the equipment. So let's start with the foils, like what kind of foils do you use and where do you recommend starting on and what are you using now? And what's the progression. Yeah. That's a loaded question. I would say look I w personally I love, I think Cabrina foils and lift walls. There. There's some my favorite foils in the industry, for sure. I would recommend to most people out there, we live in Florida. So winds are a little bit lighter, but I would even say no matter where you are in the world, it wouldn't hurt to have a wing around, call it the two fifty three hundred or 2000 square centimeter or bigger wing, which is a very large wing. And the reason why is, if you're not very good, you're at least going to have a wing that kind of gets you up the soonest as possible. The other kind of big mistake, a lot of people make is maybe they have a 12 foot board and there they throw a foil on it, and they're really struggling to even get up when it's windy. And the truth is you have a huge surface area that's sticking to the water. So you actually want the shortest thing you can get within reason with high volume or high leader. So you can actually stand on it and float and it's stable. That's the easiest, in my opinion, for learning for foil and board, as far as wings, the good Brina wings I think are absolutely awesome. We have two different versions and personally I like them both. I think the X two has incredible low end. So the sixes and sevens are incredible in the low end. And then the mantis is. Wave riding efficient machine, for sure. But I think, truthfully, I'd say wings, you could just get your hands on something and go for it is definitely, it changes things up. As you get better, you go to smaller foils. And poor Gwen. I throw everything at him. I'm like, try this, do this. Do I need to just whoa wow. Look at this. And he's doing all these tricks and I don't know. It's pretty wild to see how he went from. Here's a wing Gwen, try it in 30 knots and it's probably too big, but that's all we had. And now he's like doing three sixties and he's learning everything. And then he learned the 360 videos coming soon. But 180 360, I don't even know what it's called. Awesome. Yeah. So wait, what is that move? You're talking about, the hour drive. So the funny thing is, the funny thing is, right now for winging like tricks you don't find a lot of videos. And when I feel. On the outdrive. I actually didn't really know that there was a trick and that's just something, a transition that I would do guide falling. And I was like, ah, I think I could do it with a wing, so I just tried it. And then later I found on YouTube oh it's called now drive. And there was a video about it. So I watch it and it definitely helped me. So now we made a video about it because we just didn't like that move. And so it's fresh now mine and they can, we can really give good tips to people. But the next thing that we need to tackle is the flakka and Daniel has been like different. They're like doing it like the past. I don't know, like a couple of weeks he has been like landing like so many. The next video coming would be the flagger. Yeah, I finally is just starting to figure out how to land them, but I've done like probably hundreds of them where I crashed. So for some reason I have, so what's the secret to pulling off the landing with the wing? It seems like it's always hard to get the wing right on the landing for me. Yeah, I would say so my tips for the flakka would be, and I'm not a professional yet at it, but I would say I was always trying to just go massive. So I was just trying to do a massive 180 and truthfully, I would say I know in anything learning, I would always take small steps. So I would say, just get the full out of the water. Flip your board. One eight. And you don't need to go massive. You're just trying to get emotion and learn the most motions. If you can get the board to go 180, the next tip is when you swing that wing across into the wind, you want to try to have it as level with the horizon and actually pull your front hand close to you, which kind of levels the wing off. I would always keep it out in front of me and it just, you just get back winded and just get, smoked and flip over. But I would say just, really think of the, how the air works, hitting the wing, and I think that'll really change it. The next best thing I would say is man, try it like 50 times on the beach. Cause you're going to really learn what to do or what not to do with that wing when you spin it across. And in the wind. Yeah, the tip that gunner gave me that really helped is just to keep the wing at keep it at the level of your head that don't get it up here, keep it like this. And then that way you can spin it around. You pretty much have to bring the wind through the wind. You can't really do it over your head. Cause then it just close you backwards. Yeah. So it's like keeping the wing load. That seems to have helped me in that. And then, like you said too, like not doing like a huge air, you don't have to be super high for it. That's it. That's a good tip too. And then spinning the board first and then having everything else. Follow it. Yeah. Yeah. Just build your way into it. I think when I first saw Gwen and showed a video or something, I was like, oh my gosh, that thing's sick. The first thing I do is try to do in the air. Cause I'm like, for sure I can do three sixties all the time. Total wipe out. And I was like, okay, maybe I should build my life. So yeah, it's fun. It's fun for us. We're learning too, and that's such a passion for us because it's, every day you can learn something new and then you get to share it with people and share your mistakes, which is brilliant because that's, we're making every mistake, just like everybody else. And our goal is to be like, we did all this wrong. Sure. Try this. Cool. So what about boards? What kind of boards are you using and what was the progression on the boards of what do you recommend for beginners? And then how do you progress to where you are now? Yeah, I would say bores a totally recommend I would say general size, I would say for beginner would be anywhere from five, four to I dunno, six. Five maybe. And I say that's a little bit longer, but I say it because there are a lot of people that are very large out there and you want to make sure it's within reason to them. But I would say leader wise, I would say is the most important and with like stability. So I would say anywhere from a hundred leaders, if you're, I would say 185 pounds, that's pretty solid all the way up to, if you're 250 pounds, we're talking 130 plus leaderboard, just to give you that stability, to learn the sport a lot easier now, as you get better, that boards here's what I would say too. That's super important as you get better. Yes. You can go to all the small boards and do all the tricks, but I would even say for most people, those boards are absolutely perfect for your longevity. And the reason I say that is every day you can go and if it loads out or the wind dies, you're still milking your wing in and you're standing there going, if you have a synchronous. You're swinging them back. So you're always up and doing it versus climbing up or trying to get up. And that's very helpful. As far as like my favorite boards, I would say the Kareena macros are awesome. Lyft has an amazing wean boards as well, but I would say it's just coming up with the right size for your weight. And for me, I'm 155 pounds. And I would say to stand on around 70 liters is perfect for me to fully stand the balance on it and go. And then I would say obviously you can go a lot smaller all the way down to 28 liter boards, but it's definitely changes everything. Yeah. I meant to go on a tiny sinker board. You have to have steady strong winds. So it's hard to do that with when the wind starts to drop off and stuff. Okay. So w where do you what does the future hold, like? Where do you see the sport going and what do you see for equipment? Do you have any ideas or things you would like to see in the future? I'll jump in quick and then I'll let him go ahead and jump in here. Cause I'm always talking. That's my issue. I'm sorry guys. But I, I was just talking to a guy on a phone yesterday and I see this at resorts. I know it sounds crazy ski resorts open area resorts snow, because the easiest way to learn this would be on the snow or the ice, like for sure, because you're actually, I would say land boarding, but I would even say if people ski or snowboard, it's the perfect way to learn it because you're early. Kind of going, you just stand there and there's no, there's not a lot of surface tension, so you can just go so you can learn the wing and you can actually do this. And I could see people going across sliders and hidden kickers. And I just see it, I see that potential, but I would say the biggest thing it does, that's super unique to me is it takes places that you never thought you would ever wing an opportunity to go play. And what I mean by that is kitesurfing you, professionals can get into some pretty crazy places in gusty winds, but I would say the winging, you can go anywhere and you can really, it opens the doors to a lot of incredible opportunities. So I think this word is going to boom. For sure. Yeah, I was living in I'd hope before I came to Florida and I was guiding on the lake. It's a big lake and it's amazing, but people cannot get into cutting them because yeah, trees everywhere. The launch is super sketchy. There's no way you can learn. There is no beach, like it's right. Like the trees and then the water often the wind from where you have to stand from the wind is offshore. So you have, and then the wind drops and like you end up swimming with all Yogi. And that's where I see winging is going to be a game changer. So like in places like this, like a mountain now people are not going to be able to stop winging because it's a lot safer. If the wind dies, you Alan's is big bone. You can swim back. No problem. If it's gusty, no problem. It's gonna open definitely like new locations and make it possible to a lot of people that would have never considered guiding is intimidating. And I think meaning is really gonna appeal to a lot more people just because we is, I wouldn't say it's easier, but I would say it's a lot safer when you talk a lot more big enough. Yeah, that's a good point. And actually I wanted to give a shout out to this, our, a YouTube watcher. His name is Joe skill, and he's a paraplegic. He's actually the one who said, I should interview you Damien and has been watching all your videos and all my videos. And he's totally into winning even though he's in a wheelchair. And so I wanted to ask you Glenn, like you said you when did that, with disabled people, so how do you get introduced to someone with that's a paraplegic? How do you introduce them to these sports? Yeah we, this weekend, this past weekend we had somebody that was missing two legs. And we just had him on the standup paddle. He was able to see it so he was just sitting on the standup paddle with the wing and and he had a lot of fun. For him it's something like he would have never considered. If you are already into like wing falling, you might think, okay. Doing the wing on the standup, other is not that fun, but for him, it was a an incredible experience that he would have never even been able to do it. He was also, we introduced him to cutting also, and he was doing body drag and had so much fun. So it's not about in this case it's not about having him like, okay. The only way to do it is having on the wing, up on the phone. No, there is in-between, there is a lot of way to do it. That is still going to be really fun for him because yeah, it being on the wetsuit, being connected with the wind and everything, it is an incredible. Yeah, that sounds great. I was also thinking, actually Joe was saying that he was thinking about doing it with a small wing in a sport wheelchair and just like on, on a parking lot or something like that. And that, that sounded interesting too, an interesting way to do it. Yeah, for sure. He'll be going and doing backflips in no time. Yeah. Sounds like he's into, so let's talk a little bit about the YouTube channel. So what are your goals? What's your strategy? What, I know you said you're putting out a new video twice a week. How do you do that and how do you keep that motivation to, to, I know it's a lot of work to write, to, to produce all the video and the editing and. Yeah. I would say the motivation we're we're we have plenty of motivation and I can go down and just unleash because there's so much information out there that we can share with people. And it's not that we can't, we just, anybody can really, and we just have the opportunity to be able to work good together. And I would say, truthfully, I've never met somebody. And like Gwen, because he's so quick and motivated and he sees the biggest thing. I would say that, that I would say most people struggle with in video is what is your direction? What is your goal? I would say Robert, you're actually brilliant at it, but you have a reason behind everything and you put it together and it's an, it's a presentation that people want. Capture that info Gwen, same thing. He has a vision when he makes a video it's going to be, this is the message. And I think that's the best thing you can have is just have an opening and middle and an end and a message. And so our goal is to share as much info with people. And I would say, there's days we go and we do, I think truthfully, our max day was 10 videos in a day, but in a four hour period now, is it all the footage in that day? No, we've captured the footage throughout times doing different things. But I would say, I think the motivation is there big time, because it's so exciting to hear people that just get, get, are living their best life because of it or just even if they gave it a shot and they're enjoying it and they're struggling, but they're enjoying it to us. That's everything. Just the. Life is about living. It's hard to get up sometimes and it's hard to, look at the positives. And I think that's the reason why we're trying to pump them out as many as we can to just help people. Yeah. So the funny thing is just an hour ago I was filming a division. Somebody came up to me and asked are you going I just watched your video. And actually it was like the dark drive. And now he's getting, he just did the duck drive and now he's getting into the 360. Like this, like we really see that we are making a difference. People are commenting on the YouTube channel all the time. And we go to the beach and people are coming to us. And on this day, like the biggest thing I think that is keeping us going is that we enjoy the process. We want to, we have, we want to make help as many people as possible, but we don't have a goal of, I dunno, getting like a million subscribers or, it would be great, but the truth is even if we don't, we are still going to do it because that process is what we enjoy. We are doing it and that's fulfilling in itself. Yeah, that's great. That, that happens to me a lot too. Like when I go down to the beach, not even just in Hawaii, anywhere in the world, really like in, in Holland or in Australia, people come up to me as oh, I learned how to win, how to stand up pallet board from you or whatever. So it's pretty pretty cool to, to get that kind of feedback for sure. But here's that video about how to duct jibes? So maybe we can break that down a little bit the learning, how to deduct Jack, cause people have been asking me about that. What are you doing? How do you do that? This one's classic because I'm that gentleman who's in this video, we call him the legend. His name is Harry Andrews. Andrew's any truly is a legend. This guy he's done it all. And I've been lucky enough to know him for many years. And when I say done it all learned to paraglide together, race, motor, cross. Absolutely. The guy does everything and he does it like, we talk about Kioski and Glenn and Evan and all these professional kites are hers. You watch Harry at the beach. He's like doing all these board offs and flipping it around and putting it on his feet. The guy is incredible, but we're lucky enough to have him here in Jupiter is a dear friend of mine. And One day. He's God, Damien, I'm doing the duck job. I'm like, what the heck is a duck job? I've never, ever heard of a duck jive. And he's out there practicing it. And so the next day I'm like, wait, dude, Harry's doing the duck jab. I don't even know what it is. So I went and tried it and I'd go into these downwind turns going like a hundred miles an hour on the wing would hit me and flip and twist. And I was like total disaster. But my tips to everybody trying to learn how to duck jive would be try it on the beach again. I always say that, but you can really learn your hands and what to do with the wing on the beach first. And you can, watch these videos and in Gwen slows it down so you can actually see the process of the wing and how to drop it. But the most important thing is you're going to, you're going to crack off downwind because you need to take the tension out of the wing, but you can't crack off to straight down in, or else you're actually gonna have a backwind issue, but I would say you need to be going down when and that's going to help take some pressure off. And then you just steer your way around and you're going to drop that wing down and it's going to circle around. And, but I would say the biggest tip to me, I would say is there's a downwind movement. And that's, you got to take the pressure off that wean for it to spin. Yeah. Releasing the pressure from the wing. And then I like to like the back handle, I'd like to move my backend forward to the second handle so I can grab the very back handle with my backhand. And then I look for the front handle. Like I like, I always that's if you miss that, grabbing the front handle on the other side, then it's really hard to pull it off. So the quicker you can grab that and get your hand on the front handle again, then it's free twist or preterm. And I would say everybody's different, right? So some people have comfortable things like Gwen learning a new trick off the pay took it. Cause it just felt comfortable. If you feel comfortable, maybe twisting your handle before you go into it, try it because it may work for you. It may not work for others, it never hurts to try some of these things to better your progress that day. Yeah. Right on. I hear we're getting another, yeah. So these ads are obviously pretty annoying for people who watch the videos, but that's how YouTube is get a little bit of money from the videos. So here he's yeah, grabbing the wing pretty far in the back, grabbing the front handle sometimes. Yeah. Like when I crashed and CG, cause they don't grab the front panel. That seems to be the one of my issues, which is nice on like the wing that we are using Damien and in Harry and I the Cabrina X tool, like the handles are very wide and I totally I really loved that because he makes grabbing the handle on, in this case, like a bit easier. And then one of the advantages of this move to an in light wind, if you do it right, you can do it completely without getting back winded. Versus sometimes if you do a regular jibe and you're moving down, when you get like the apparent wind can actually be against you. So you can get back winded sometimes in the light went jive. So I liked doing it in really light wind conditions sometimes. Yeah. Good move to learn. That's what we ride in. So that's where we'd love to try an island. What conditions do you have usually? What are the winds like and how the yeah. What kind of conditions. I'd say we get to choose to, I'd say we get five to third, I would say, there's, we used to have a lot of cold fronts that were really powerful and we'd have 30 plus, but I would say on average you would be a good day and be like 12 to 25 maybe. Or in the twenties, that'd be a magical day. So it's perfect for learning, but it's we don't really get the cold fronts like we used to get and we still do, but it's definitely less and less. So the wind is not like Hawaii or it can sustain 30 to 40 all the time. So yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit different for us here on Oahu and Maui. Just the way the island is shaped with the wind. It kind of funnels the wind between the two sides of the island, but on a wall it's usually like about 10 knots later than on Maui. As when we can barely get going, it's already cranking on Maori, so it's not where it's not quite always, but at least we do have steady Tradewinds and yeah. Luckily global warming hasn't affected the Tradewinds. It seems plus on the wing foiling, you can really get going and less wind than you need for windsurfing or even cutting, I think or in gusty winds, it just works better because yeah, if you have to wait for a couple of minutes for the next Gustin, once you're up on the foil it's pretty easy to keep it going, even in really light winds. Yeah, it's and that's, you nailed that perfectly is, you're in a lighter wind spot, we're in a lighter wind spot. And I would say across the country, there's a lot of places that are light winds, but even gusty. And I would say to throw a kite up a hundred meter line or a hundred feet line and have kites phone and disasters, it's just so easy to grab a wing and give it a shot. And I think, Gwen nailed that earlier, but that's that's why it's so achievable for people. And you truly can go live your best life and try something new and learn something new because we all like learning. And that's what it's all about. So as we learn how to do duck jives and all these things that this legend here brings to us, and we're like, what was that? What are we doing? Okay, we're going to try that. That's great. In terms of the skills that you have, would you say a lot of, oh, that one. I'm just watching it, the video here, but it's the skills that you have, like how much of it is like talent, like natural God-given talent and how much of it is just practicing and doing it over and over and screwing up until you can find me do it. I would say for most people, look, everybody's been given a talent and I would say for sure, there's people out there that are significantly, you know, more, advance or they've been given stronger muscles or whatever it may be. But I would say, I would just say to anybody out there. Yes. You put a lot of time in the water, you're going to get good at it. A lot of people skiing, I always remember this. It's a good analogy, but everybody skiing would say, man, you're really good at skiing or whatever. And I'm like I skied every single day, literally through the summer, every single day, every day I could. And they would only go on a ski trip three times a year. You're only going to be as good as how much effort you put into whatever you do. Make sure to put effort into something and just like Landon or yourself, you study it, you learn it, you learn your craft and you'll be incredible at it. I would say I'm very blessed and I've been very skilled and I'm but I would say I'm no different than anybody out there. And I say that truthfully, because you can learn something if you put your mind to it. And I don't care if you're 200 pounds, I just think anything is possible. If you really just put your mind to it. He's teaching right now. Yeah. No, not quite. So do you ever a lot, I think a lot of it is really is mental. Like some days you go out and everything's just perfect, you're in tune with the conditions in your equipment. Everything's perfect. And you feel like Superman, you can do anything. You can pull off all kinds of moves. And then the next day you go out on the same equipment, the same conditions, and you're like a total cook again. So does that ever happen to you and is there anything you can do about that or your mindset? Yeah, I would say, you nailed it and you've opened it that way, but I would say, look, you always got to go into every day, every session, every work appointment, every time with your wife or your loved one, whatever it is always be looking for the positive in whatever the situation is because you're spot on. For everyone already out there, Gwen and I go down to the beach and we may have learned a new trick and then the next day you can't do it because you just, it didn't click again and that's normal and that's totally fine because maybe your muscles are fatigued or maybe you just are a little off or the conditions are a little bit harder or whatever it may be. That's part of the learning process. So don't, if you get it and you get up willing in one day, don't think tomorrow you're going to be winging exactly the same, it will still keep coming. But I think a lot of people get frustrated or they get beat down and I would just say, look, be open to maybe it wasn't the perfect conditions. Maybe I just wasn't on my game today. So it's a hundred percent mental and it's how you look at it and always have a better outlook on whatever it is, whether it's winging or life or depression or whatever, just you got to have a better outlook. And I think if you change that mentally and your whole life and work and relationships and weaning and. Will just absolutely blow your mind. You will change. You will surround yourself with good people. All of a sudden, opportunities will come, you'll learn the duck jive like I did. And that was just cause I was surrounding myself with good people and Gwen did the 180, whatever it was called. I still don't even know what it's called, that's how I learned it. I didn't think of it, but it was a great opportunity to see it. Wow. This is great. I'm looking at the positive. Let's give it a shot versus I'll never do it. I'm not going to try it. I can do these other things. I'm really good at I'm going to keep doing them instead. I'm like open to try it. Why not? What's the worst can happen. I crashed, I looked like a moron. I crashed all the time and a lot of people are nervous to crash or look bad. And I would say, look, that is life learning, making mistakes, and your mistakes lead you to be a better person and relationships and work and business and you name it. And that's how you learn. So I've made a lot of mistakes. So I get pretty good things. Yeah. I think I would say sometime you have to detach yourself from from the goal or like still have a goal, but not be so like the fulfilling path is an only attributing the goal the process should be fulfilling. And if you can do that then. Whatever the outcome is, you're going to be stoked because you are doing, you are in the process. So for me, I just see it as how, however frustrating it is that sometime that as good as the day from before but you are still out there and that's the process. And so that, try to get that being fully fulfilling and the outcome when, the outcome is good or not. That's okay. But if you put in the time and you go out there and you have fun and you enjoy the process. Yeah. It wouldn't be, it would be good. Yeah. You still learn something even when you're a coop and nothing's working, but let's say, do you have any pointers for someone that's stuck in that negative mindset or whatever, getting upset with themselves or being stuck in a negative mindset? How can you turn that around as the more positive and optimistic or, obviously you learn a lot better when you're, when you have a positive mindset, right? Yeah. We joke, but we'll we'll text you Harry's phone number so everybody can call Harry and they can personally get advice. Now I would just say, look, everybody goes through this. Just know that you're not the only one. And the ways to get out of it is to say yes, just say yes to something, get up and do something and it can be anything. It can be, go for a walk. It can be just get up and do something. Because if you just keep dwelling on it, you will just put yourself lower and whatever it may be, or you'll get deflated. And you just don't want to try anything. You don't want to do anything. And I would say the best thing you can do is change your scenery, change, whatever you're doing, get up, do something different. Yeah. Take your brain off it, take a break, relax, whatever it may be. Just change that but know that there's the process. The process that Gwen speaks about is everything. I went to Hawaii. I think I have the speed record with Alex Guerin Hawaii. Maybe. I don't even know if that stands, but that was a process to get a speed record in Hawaii. It was not about getting a speed record. It was about. Going out with my buddy and going as fast as I can, and his daughter did it and it was just incredible experience. And did we know we could do it? We didn't even know if the wind was going to be perfect. We thought it would be, but who knows? It's when and you just don't know. So just get up and always look at the glass, full it's just there, you just, if your car breaks down, locate ran good until today. That's okay. Get it fixed. Moving on and look at the positive. Don't look at my life's over. Oh my gosh. It's there, there's no gain from that. Yeah. And I would say every time you do something and you failed, it's good because that means you are one step closer to six to succeed. The more you fail, the closer you get to, being successful. So don't get discouraged and, and draw the process. And the more you fail, the better you're going to get. Yeah. It's like that quote from Wayne, Gretzky, like that you miss every shot you don't take. So just, you gotta keep trying to achieve things, even if you have to fail or, hundreds of times or thousands of sense I was thinking about that Thomas Edison failed like thousands of times before you invented the light bulb. Yeah, not giving up too easily. It's part of it. And I think a lot of people a dear friend of mine, Julie Mancusos Olympic athlete or Olympic medalist, many time, whatever. And even when I won my world championship, you're your pinnacle, people think it's, that's the moment. That moment is just okay, what do I do next? So just know that, your life, whether it'll go through these roller coaster. So the best thing you can do is always just keep learning, keep trying, keep opening the door to try new things, because that'll keep a healthy lifestyle versus getting so fixated on something that if you don't achieve it, I don't make a million dollars. I don't get the cool job. I don't get the perfect setup, whatever it may be. You're just going to get crushed versus. How many workers are as I can today may lead to me owning my own business. But you just got to, always have a goal or a dream, for sure. I think that's a really good thing and work hard and treat people the way that you would want to be treated. And I think you'll be incredibly successful. Yeah. That's a good point. One thing that people say, like writing down goals, like in, in writing or telling other people about it, it holds you more accountable to achieving that goal. Is that something you agree with? Is that something you do that you have written goals? Yeah. We have 15 notebooks here of videos that are coming. I'm just kidding. I just think, yes, I've always been whether it's writing it down or having it in the back of your brain, but the most important thing. And I'm one to know cause I've, I had a pretty bad accident midway through my life here that led me to my beautiful wife and a lot of great things. Everything happens in life. So I would say just because you think you're meant to be something, so say I thought my whole life, I was going to be one of the best ski racers in the world who would have known, I would have ended up in Florida, playing with wings and kitesurfing and who knows, so just start taking those roads and it's gonna lead you to some special, incredible opportunities in life. I would just always be open to learning and take different paths and you'd be pretty excited on your outcome. Do you have anything to add that to that wins? Yeah. I've done so many things in my life, like trench change like path so many times. And I come from a family that's very traditional, like in a way, like you, you go to school for something and then you get that job and then you keep that job and you get married, you have kids and you retire and that's it. But for me I, I've never been change is scary sometimes. In the end, like you just have to be open trigger yourself first. Like when you do something and and it's not fulfilling or it doesn't make you happy, then you, it's your responsibility to find what's, what you want to do. What's what makes you happy? I think that's the priority. And then that will lead you to many different ways and it's not going to be a straight line, but if you if you are open to trying new things, if you keep don't get stuck somewhere and opportunities come all the time. So you just have to be open to it and change path. When. Yeah, definitely. And I agree that you don't have to live a boring life. That's what you make of it. So courage everyone to try to live their life to the fullest. So let's talk a little bit about the, kind of the obsession with foiling. Once you get into foiling, you get that feeling and it's I want to say it's like an addiction or it's like a drug that you want again and again. So is there a dark side to it? Is there like a downside or is it just a healthy thing for you? Is there, do you ever feel like it's, maybe there's a negative downside to it. I think the negative would be like, if you're in a relationship, you have to buy multiple foils for sure. For your wife, for your kids, that would be the negative of it. No, I would say, they're, I would say the negative that everybody is always worried about, is it danger? I'm going to get caught. I heard of people getting cut or hurt or, and I would just say, look, yes, it's dangerous. But I would say you get into your car every day. That is 10 times more dangerous. And everything is within reason. So if you take it slow and watch your YouTube channel and learn all this stuff and you can do it and you can learn safely and you may have some setbacks. That's all part of it. But I would say it's everything in life has it's dangerous. And if you're always worried about every danger, you're never going to do anything. So you got to take a little bit of a risk and go talk to the girl that you wanted to talk to. If you don't talk to her, you're never going to get her for sure. So take that risk and talk to her. So there's so many things that it leads to in life. And I would say with foiling, the biggest one is danger. And I would say it's only is danger is dangerous as you make it. Learn to Hamilton and Benny. And some of these guys do, and, in Kailani doing the massive waves, that's pushing the limit, but they're also, that is their challenge and learning of them, what is possible. And I think that's their level, mine may be on a two foot piece of chop and I get scared and I go home. It could be that, but I'm okay with that. And it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's different levels of risk. I just watched that a movie about the guy what's his name? Alex Honnold climbing free soloing, El Capitan in Yosemite with like super hard sections, super high off of the ground. That was incredible. So compared to that, I think wing filing is pretty safe compared to that. And especially on the water, but I get one thing I would say, if you're doing it on land, like on a skateboard or an ice, you do have to be careful, especially when you go fast. A lot of times you can't. Hold up your head. So if you hit the ground and your head hits the it's, the ice, or that the ground, you can actually get pretty injured. So wearing a helmet and knee pads, elbow pads, and all that kind of stuff. It's definitely a good idea. If your issue, you're not doing it in the wall. And even the water, I think you wearing a helmet is a good idea when you're doing crazy moves, like flips and stuff like that. We're not going to hurt at all. Any type of safety, Mo impact this to even full wetsuits. So you don't get all scraped up when you're climbing up and down off the board learning, booties for chafing, the top of your feet. I know I needed them the first day when I gave him all my wing stuff, he came home like bloody, and I was like, ok

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet show.  On this show, I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and ask them in-depth questions about Wingfoil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, how they got into water sports, what inspires them, and how they live their best life. I'm a visual learner, so I'm adding visual content that you can watch on YouTube, but you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app Today's interview is with the very first wing foil world champion, Titouan Galea from new Caledonia. If you're into wing foiling as much as I am, you've probably already seen the videos of him doing crazy moves on jumps, back flips on the face of the wave, big airs, riding big waves in New Caledonia and other places. Really impressive stuff. And of course also being able to pull these moves off under pressure during competition and winning the last couple of world championship events.  Titouan breaks down some of the most advanced moves for us, Step by step. We also talk about his background, how he grew up in new Caledonia and now lives in France and about his board, foils, wings and what the future holds for him. So without further ado, please welcome the talented Titouan Galea. All right. Titouan, thanks so much for making some time to be on the Blue Planet show. How are you doing today? Great, thank you for inviting me. Yeah. Awesome. So here in Hawaii, it's it's 10 o'clock in the morning and for you it's evening, right? Eight o'clock or something like that?  And you're in Montpellier France. Is that right? Yes Okay. But originally you grew up in new Caledonia. So can you tell us a little bit about, your background, how you grew up and how you got into water sports? Yeah. Born in new Caledonia and my father was doing windsurfing and kiting, yeah. Maybe around 2000. So yeah, he teach me when, so thinking like surfing when I was about like eight or nine and yeah, I've been projects learning where mainly and some other places yeah, since. Maybe I was 12. I started doing it quite often.  Studying wave kite surfing mostly. And then what else I've done? Yeah. Foiling came like maybe six years before. Maybe seven. I started with kite foiling on my own when I was about 18 years old and yeah, just one year after I moved to France and I joined the French team of kite foiling. So I've been doing lots of wind sports and yeah. Then the wing for the game. So two years ago, and now I'm doing a few other sports most of the time. Pretty much. Yeah. Awesome. Congratulations on being number one in the world right now in the rankings. That's pretty impressive. How old are you now? 24 actually, I actually had to look up new Caledonia. I've never been there, but just for people to know where it is. So this is New Calidonia and Australia and Hawaii is here. And then this is new Caledonia, right? There's a place nearby, which is very famous. Is Fiji.  exactly the same swell, like Cloudbreak receives So yeah, we have same waves as other spots, so yeah, it's really nice space. And actually it's much more like it's windier in New Calidonia then. Yeah. Most of the time it's yeah. When you're in New Cal. So what's the prevailing wind direction. So what is the prevailing wind? So yeah, Southeast is like this way, right along the coast. For the surf, is it better on the south shore? On the north shore? Both? Yeah, cause it's windy almost everyday. It's tricky. Sometimes a winter and a bit north is so we have good surf on the west coast. Now we surf manly on the west coast. All disposed comes from south is south. Yeah. From depression, south hemisphere. So all this welcomes between a New Zealand and Australia and they, most of them come from south Southwest. So it's all all the stuff sports on the west coast. And so I guess the best ways are probably in the, in, in the winter there, which is summer in the Northern hemisphere. Is that right? Yeah. That's where we get you as big as well, like June, July, but actually there's way happening. Pretty much all the alarm really it's like entireties is have good swell too in. Pretty much all year long. They receive also no swell. We're not receiving the really, we can have like very good session and increased in may. Not really, but yes, there's a main season. Yeah. June, July, August. That's where exit peak of swell is where we get the biggest swells. All right. And then, so you've been out on the water windsurfing and kiting and so on since you're you said nine years old or something like that long time before I was pretty much sailing on small boats, like I don't know, optimist and stuff where I started  when I was nine. And do you have a early childhood memory that where you just realized, oh, I love this. This is what I want to do with my life or. There's always been a passion, but when I moved to France from Nicole, for sure, I said, okay, I really like this. I'm going to try to do it like professionally and try to make it as my job. And yeah, it's nice. And so did you move to France so you can be easily compete more easily? Or what, why did you move to France? Okay. Y yeah, two levels from Nucala is such a nightmare. There's not much light. It's super expensive. I didn't have big budgets in the beginning, cause yeah, it was just starting. So I will not live in Newcastle and travel all the time from new Caledonia. It's too much money for me. So yeah. I decided to move France, much more things happening, you guys are now. Yeah. You had to show to people, where is it? There's not much people knowing where it is. It's not a not places like Hawaii is like, everyone is looking how I there's a lot of things happening in Hawaii. Lots of people are there just a few people that are like writing professionally. So you stay there all the time. To be well known by people. There's not much you can do, like it's better to move to France or Europe where there's more evidence, there's more writers. So it's better for me even to progress and have a bit of emulation. I can say this in English. Yeah. That's a Friday around you. And also, yeah, now it's a fun. And they are also based in more per year where I'm living. So that makes things easy too. Yeah. So in new Caledonia, are you a French citizen or what is yeah. Yeah. It's like a department of science. It's easy to stay here for me also. I didn't start in the beginning, but now I'm doing a source today has a pilot license. And so I'm about to finish it in a couple of months. Yeah, looking forward we'll have like much more time to do many other things. Yeah. I guess new Caledonia is pretty far away from France. It's like pretty much on the other side of the world, right? Yeah. It's 35 hours flying almost because of the connection. Terrible. And also, if you want to know, I dunno, in a state, in the USA, it's so complicated. Really. So is it traveled from where it's super expensive? Like flying from new Kalamazoo to Europe is always more than yet 2000, sometimes 3000 super expensive. Talk a little bit about flying. I know it looks like you do paragliding and glider, plane flying and so on and you're. I guess you, you said your goal is to become a pilot do you have a pilot's license this now? Or? Yeah, of course this is gliding. So I have the license. I'm also piloting small airplanes. So yeah, my goal when I will be older is to do it like as a commercial pilot, but it has always been a passion for me to start by writing when I was pretty young. And when I moved to France, I had this thing also guiding super nice. It's much better to do glider here because when it's all the time strong, so it's better to fly a lighter than a paraglider. Yeah. And then you you also like doing like the kiting on snow around, it looks like. Thing new gal never will discover this thing. So it was nice to do this was things in trends to realize the mountains, the landscape are amazing. And yeah, it's a nice way to, to visit the mountains. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. And then now basically you're able to just be a professional wing foiler now, or Kaiden wing further through F1 through the sponsorship, that's enough for you to make a living or do you have any other jobs? No, for now I have nothing else. So moving from this before it was a different thing. We, the Federation was helping a lot too. Like it was more, more structured thing. Now we was a wing, so cause it's like everyone, one of the wing is pretty good in the wing too. So it's working great too. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the wing foil world tour. So recently you just won both the freestyle and the racing, right? So you're number one in the world right now. How does that feel? Hey, it's nice. We had two, two Evans last year also and both had finished and spouse, a one over one he wants. So I think it's going to be a great battle against this guy again, this year. Yeah, it seems like he's your biggest competitor right now. Huh? It's like he's right behind you. Yeah. Tell us about the last contest you went to, where was it? And and how was it while were the conditions and how has traveling to, how is it to travel during the pendant? It was not a big travel. It's one hour and a half from my house now. So yeah. I know four people from outside, it was a to travel cause fem a lot. Definitely was okay. And what about the convention? It was nice. Super well, have a nice the place it's like the wind was fully off shore, so maybe it was not waves at all was like the sea. So yeah, it was very difficult to have like big gems and setbacks was really tricky and freestyle. So on that flat water and we had to racing to we're going to have a wave and I'm really looking forward to it. Cause I think that's a windfall it's much more funnier in ways that war. Yeah. The waves make it more interesting. I guess the, that event in Brazil last year. There was there was some like a small shore break, but not much in terms of like breaking away. Yeah. It was not breaking ways, but still has, like proper waves to really enjoy it. So yeah. Presumably can do something. So we're calling actually 50% of the score on the ways and 50% on a freestyle. So that was okay. But as you can see, we can there was no way at all. So it was 100% of freestyle. The wind was just blowing off shore. Yeah. How strong was the wind? Like how many knots do you think about was the wind hit during the contest with w we have five days of competition and we only had two days off and the first day was probably around 30 knots, something like this. And the second day we had 20 to 15 knots no more, but he has, the first day was quite strong, quite cold raining all day. It was quite a tricky condition. Yeah. It looks perfect in the video, of course. Yeah. Yeah. That was the second day. Was that? Yeah, 15, 25 minutes, depending on the sign. So what size wing were you using? During the freestyle and what size during the racing? And just curious, like different con equipment Thursday, I told you it was, the wind was pretty strong. So I was on my three five, and that was the last day as you can see, I was on my phone too. Cause it was like, yeah. Less wind on the first day was the racing Thursday in 30 nights. I was, I think I was in a five and a five. And and the second day we did a race after the freestyle and it was less and less. That's when I went on my, I think on my five and my six or seven after really big wins. So talk about this, on that one back flip, I guess your foil landed on the wing and left a couple of holes in it. And it was okay to just keep going. That was okay. Cause I had the pressure and the motivation was it. I was doing the final against spouse. Yeah. I was building my studying by the like small small streaks. And I came to do my backlit. Normally I do it all the time, but this time I crashed and I crashed like really bad. So I ended up into the doing with the foil. So it's got a bit like two parts of my wing and it had me a lot of pressure. I saw I pulled still a fly, so I went again, fall back asleep, and then I did my Qualtrics again. I knew I was in. Good. Yeah. Awesome. And then you, the racing, what we're using different equipment for the racing and like how was that? What kind of course was it and so on? Actually, no, really. I bring, I dunno. Yeah. I bring many boards to test and see actually, yeah, I use exactly the same for freestyling and racing was the racing. You had a bot. Off downwind where you will not use the wing at all. So you had to pen, so we could not use super small 500, 600. So yeah, so I had my hate Android coming quite soon with a fund that I use this country's guide and I'm racing to, there was really I was supposed to this done with, but I will have used maybe a 500 or 600 because it was much faster, but because we had this down with, but it's really nice that way. It's not, everyone has such small force, so it was better for everyone, I think. So how did that work? So the downwind part you had to you basically had to pump without the wing or how does that work? Yeah, it just basically grabs the wing from the front handle, which is in the leading edge and you just keep going. That's it. And then downwind leg, you're not allowed to use the wings. You have to, you just use the waves to end the foil to go down. Yeah. Yeah. It was very short, like longer, but it was like, I don't know, 200 meters maybe normal. I see. So like a super small, super fast than racing wing, like you would use for kite racing or something like that would be wouldn't work for that. Yeah. Maybe I could do it, but I don't know, take safety and don't take such a small cause it's not working like sailing a normal racing regatta. It's elimination like freestyle. So if you lose like one race, when you're over, you have no discards, nothing really. You have to perform on each race. Who's one time if you're over so better takes safety. Okay. Interesting. So basically that, that's pretty interesting. So you basically use the same equipment more or less, same foil, same board, same wing too, for the racing industry. So yeah, the last day, cause it was like very light when a, I use a bigger board. Yeah. For the freestyle. I was using a 30, 80 there's sports and yeah, for the racing, because it was super light when we were on those six or seven meters. How was he seeing a 44, 50 with 50 liters and and a big wing, like how light or how much, when do you need to get up on the foil? Like how many knots would you say? You need to get it? Maybe seven, something like this? I think around seven. Yeah. If I was still using a small book, 50 liters, it's not so small. If you go like on the sup for example, like for down winner, Like on a sup a thing you can go even lower. I want lower for sure. Maybe we have a 50 liters. That's good. Wow. That's impressive. So if the DWA came to you and said, Tetouan, you can have a contest anywhere in the world any kind of format. So what would you say this is? This is the perfect contest. What would you choose? I don't know. It's a tricky question for sure. Love to have one in proper way, like I have at home, like big waves or like Cloudbreak or even Whereas like these more, maybe more shoes one I wear or maybe someone might, I guess something like this really visa one day, for sure. I'm not sure it's going to happen anytime soon. So yeah, it would be nice maybe not such big ways, but I know not super hollow, maybe also retreats in a way, because it cannot bear from trees. But I think now, I'm trying it by now, like to perform tricks into the way, and this is very interesting. I think we've not big waves, like even less than, but I dunno where honesty. I don't mind I can go on, but this space there's many places for sure. We can do this. There's many places we can do maybe in a couple of Brazil. I don't know many places in Maui, too, in front of the beach or even lanes. I don't know many places. Yeah. So wave contest. Obviously you probably the waves are more interesting than the racing, right? Yeah. Really racing. I don't know, competing this year for the two, but there's no sense doing racing. We've already tied, fallings out, performing very good already. I think it's better to keep this sport. Yeah, like this really? This is better really. Yeah, you're doing some amazing stuff in the waves and I'm just like pulling off big jumps on the face of the wave and stuff like that. It's pretty impressive for sure. So maybe walk us through a little bit what you're doing here and what I find really interesting here, when you're doing a bottom turn, how you sh she didn't the way almost like wind surfing and yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that? Your technique? You're going to have the full story. It's fun. Yeah. It gives a video. You can see on the learning edge. I have a Sikh, which is my comment on it because I had this thing. I could not grab the phone from handle. So that's why I was keeping the wing in my hand. But I've journey. Yeah. Afterwards I saw it looks great. And it's helped me to do maybe better bottom sometimes, but also you don't see much when you go to this thing because I don't have window in mind. So I don't know. I like both, most of the time I just grabbed it from handle. I used to do this, but yet since this time I was using to see I'm doing more and more like winter. Yeah. It's really interesting. And then when you land with the foil in the whitewater, Does that actually make the landing a little bit softer? Is it actually easier to land on whitewater? Is it hard because of the turbulence? Yeah. Yeah. True. So you can jump on a, fall on the shoulder and you're going to land on flat or even on the steep part is going to be tricky, but it's going to be hard yet for your knees and everything, but yeah. Landing in the white water, it's much more softer, but afterwards also move a little bit. So like in this side of waves, it's okay. But more than this can be tricky to learn. Really. I don't know. Of course we're going to perform more and more, but more than this, for sure. It's going to be tricky to learn in a whitewater. I don't think there will be lending like big areas, like 10 feet away is for sure not going to happen. I don't know. We'll see. It goes so fast. I'm really looking forward to see what's going to happen. Five years in the sport. Really. I'm really stoked to be part of it now. It's crazy. Yeah. Is this the same way that from the, with the GoPro max? Yeah, it's exactly the same way, but just so from outside, this way you can have a, yeah. That's super cool move in. And I think there was another one that I wanted to show where you're doing like a back flip on the wave as well. Whereas that one that's funny. I think. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. So doing all those freestyle moves on the wave and I guess that's like the whole, the next the next step right. Doing days ago. Yeah, you can go from back there and 360, but now I'm doing good this time. I was training now I learned my last post and then a good one. So for sure you can lend some front flips into the waves to probably double to build also seven 20. Yeah. Awesome. I think you've already been attempting those right? The 17, seven 20. No, really. If I attempt was not made on purpose really. I have to really, I have to try seven 20, but as a thing, if you do a pre 62 high, most of the time you go turn over rotate and they never land seven 20, but I have to try it for sure. Yeah. Th the. Let's talk a little bit about the backflip. I think the tricky part of the backflip is like when the wing, when you're kinda got the wing between you and the water, and this just looks like a really tricky spot to be in. But actually at this moment, if you have a good, Hey you okay? Yeah, really? It's all about the Pope. Really? If you both, while you get the good hate and you just like, yeah, totally good. I got to Trumbull line. If you, at the end, when you see yourself pointing towards the sea and the wing in front of you, normally you're good. Really? There's nothing can happen. It's all about the beginning. For me, I think so as long as you have enough height in this position, then you can pull out of it. But if, I guess if the water's underneath you at this point, then you basically fall onto the wing. Yeah. But it's happened to me many times for the first time. So maybe walk us through it step by step. What do you like, I guess for the pop, like you're trying to get the anchor, the full angles up as steep as you can. And the takeoff. Yay. You have to get a good spirit. Not to agree, not to cross man having a good speed. Yeah. It's like hard when you back. So you try to go hi, and you have to put your head in the back. I'm not doing really putting the, your eyes, like going back in the back. It's I think it helped for sure. And after, yeah, on this one I grew up myself, to make my myself like maybe faster. Yeah. That's pretty much it after it was a tricky part also is to position the the wind. Like it's a bit hard, like to explain to everyone the main thing you to think, as a wing, like not. Into the wind, again, the wind, as you can see on the highest spot I am is a wing is just like in the middle. Not taking much like the wind, the that's not against the wind. It's just in the middle. Yeah. And that was just the one above. Yeah. When I'm upside down exit wing. Yeah. I want to get back winded, but you also don't want the wing to pull you down towards the water, right? Yeah. And one other thing is give advisers it's much easier to learn, move some ways, for sure. Like a good key here, like coming, just cross I don't know. You didn't, you don't need nothing. Just one fit normal coming against you. It's gonna help you so much. Really? Yeah. Just have a steep ramp to launch off of. It will for sure. Okay. So yeah, no, that's awesome. And then what about, is this the one for that? I think so this is not the one, sorry. Yeah, so maybe walk us through that move. Like the Ford sort of, it looks a lot like windsurfing actually like doing a forward on windsurfing, but not the same though. I don't know. Maybe I'd done a long time ago, but I think it's totally different, but I'm doing maybe winds of sight. The decision I had paid, cause it was a waste, but I don't think, and from it this way, I saw some old guys now doing it, like more like Trump line again, like throwing themselves in a, from and me I'm more using the wing to do it. So I think I have to learn how to do it, but this one looks great. It's nice. It's just a bit tiring for your knee. So basically you, this one, you getting up, you try to go high first and then you spin sideways almost around the wing. It looks very great. Or w how do you think of, what do you think about when you're doing it? I really, I don't know. I just learned like a week ago, this thing. Yeah, you have to turn the wing, like upside down, like towards the water, like super fast and keep pushing, pulling you back normally itself. I don't know. Really. I don't have much advice really. I didn't learn a lot yet, so I don't all the time, but I have to. Yeah. It's super cool that you're pushing the limits. I think without, it's always easier to do something once you see somebody else doing it and then can figure out how they did it. But doing it for the first time is the hardest, the first point to learn it is always the hardest part, right? Yeah. Especially for the, like the guys in Maui. And they were doing back flips since mom already, but because we didn't have any advice from anyone, it was really hard to learn it, same way, but now, yeah, I get it. Many guys go now in France. So I think going to go faster and faster, I don't know for sure. Are kids now doing it too? The forage flips. Yeah. Yeah. Not so much here on the wahoo, but I know on Maui, a lot of the guys who are doing the backflips now, the younger guys, so this is pretty good too. So using a kiteboard with the wind wing. Yeah. This is not something I'll for sure. And yeah, in France sometimes when that's in, look at where we had the competition to the wind is blowing like super strong sometime. So yeah, this time I can use my cause he was like, I don't know, 40, not something. Yeah. I think I saw somewhere where your dog, like there was a longer version of it in your dog. Is that your dog chasing you on the beach? No. That's not even mine. A friend, maybe. I don't know, but yeah, that was pretty cool. So in terms of, I know the F1 wings don't have windows. Like how do you feel about windows? Do you think it's that's always a question people have, do you need a window? Or like, how do you feel about having windows in the wings? Really depends if you go in a crowd or no, I don't use to go to play so much crowded, so I'm okay. Without window. Yeah. It's the only time I told you before was when I'm using it in a way maybe. And I do like bottom turns and stuff like Windsor style. I cannot see inside the wings. So that can be a problem sometimes, but maybe it will come with some windows. I don't know. Cool. Some amazing stuff you do and the waves are really impressive. So what do you see hap like for the future? What do you think will happen? What are your goals? What do you think is possible? What do you think the future holds for wing filings? Maybe now I have a better ID, but in the beginning, like a few months after it came, I was thinking it was just a little thing, but not thing to grow at all. So I was totally wrong. Really. Now it's becoming such a big thing that companies are doing, like lots of work on it and focusing on a lot now. And also it's really nice, but how I see it, I don't know for me. Yeah, for sure. I really like going in a ways. I think it's a really good time to go in a ways and have fun in a ways. For sure. Yeah. People want to also put the freestyle now that they're doing competition. So we have, it's much easier to do freestyle and racing event weather event. So it's gonna push a freestyle again. Good thing. We, what we're going to learn in a freestyle and we can add it in a ways too. So it's going to be even more interesting. I think the wind serves are doing tricks in a way, so we'll come with this too. What else? Yeah, it was me. I want to know is just, yeah, I prefer going away. I really want to do like videos in good places bringing in good ways. Around the world. I'm really looking forward to this. Yeah. So one of the tricky parts of winging in the ways is if you get caught inside of a big set and then a big whitewater is coming at you just cause the wing has, the wing just gets torn. So pulled so hard by the waves. Have you ever like broken leashes and lost wings or blew up the wing and so on? Like how do you deal with that? Like when I went in bigger ways, I don't know why really. I had many sessions, but I never felt once in UK then. Yeah. So I was lucky. I was not like pushing too much at this time. Maybe now if I'm going back, I will do maybe go deeper for sure. But yeah, I've been in such big west, but still I've been culturally smaller ones in other places, even here in France. And yeah, I broke a few leashes for sure. He broke some time. It's a nice things though. It doesn't like to touch your arms, which is nice, but yeah it's tricky if you're on your own and there's not much people around you, you can be in trouble when I'm in a new car going in big ways. There's always boats taking care. If never something happened is always. I know friends with boats or is always going to be a solution, but yeah, if you're on your own, I know people like more shoes they go in and sometimes it publishes. And so when just go away in Madagascar or I don't know, so they have yet to swim back to the shore. So yeah, sometimes it can be tricky. It's the same way when surf and as they broke a lot of gears, the waves, it's almost the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It is. We were just talking about what the best solution is, because it's just, yeah, it's hard when you lose your wing. Sometimes I think it's maybe even better just to let the wing go when the big set comes. And then try to turn the channel later, yeah. Depending on what size of where you were talking about the one, it was really big in your cow. I didn't put even a Wenglish. I was without really all the time. Cause it's not going to break anyway. So you'd better, like it better, doesn't have a leash that way the wing might not be broken by waiver. There's a good chance of doing won't be broken if you don't have the leash. So it's nice. Yeah, sometime first you're not going to have a bullish. There's no sense. It's super dangerous. Yeah, but then yeah, you just have to be pretty pretty sure of yourself that you're not going to lose your gear. We're also talking about that maybe you could put, they have those apple air tags or whatever like a satellite locator thing that you could maybe put on your wing. So if you lose it and it's like out in the ocean somewhere, you could find it, with, find your iPhone and look for your wing and then locate it like that. So later on you could go back with a boat and find it or something like that, I think that's I never heard about a thing where not so advanced, I think you need cell phone service to make it work probably. Yeah. Yeah, it's a second another idea, but I was wondering like you have some of your boards behind you, so if you could only have one board for all conditions, like including light, wind and so on, what would be the board you would have, maybe, can you show us your w the board you would choose if you only had one board? Our hands, really? If suddenly I have to go in that maybe I'm gonna take this one, so four, eight, four, eight. Yeah. That's the one I use in super-light with 50 liters visiting. I can go, yeah, that's super light, maybe 12, 12 knots with a normal wing, like five. So yeah, that's the one I would take. So how much do you weigh? I weighed 70. Okay. So a good volume for you and I'm sorry, what did you say about 50 liters or? Yeah, that's 50, but really that's only if I have to go like below 50 knots, I always using yeah. Around 35 liters. Normal, really? And then when you start, you put your, you put both your feet on the board already underwater and then get, let it pull you out. Yeah. Yeah. I just sit standing up on the surf board with my knee bands and the water and I have my wings up and I just go out to water. Yeah. And you just need a good Gus to get you going. And then once, once you're out, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I had a lot of questions like this. A year ago, six months ago. But I think now, I see here many people using small boats and I think the same on how I were quite strong too. Now, pretty much everyone is using small boats. Yeah. It's pretty common to use smaller boards, but I still like using a board that almost floats me. I use I'm like 88 kilograms or something and I use a boy that's maybe 75. That's yeah. Okay. Around yet. Yeah. Let's look at some of the ways. And is this in new Caledonia that this video, can you see it. Yeah. That was a long time ago. Yeah, that wasn't NewCo was one of the first time I was going to the reef. That was almost two years ago. Yeah. These two years ago. More than two years ago. Yeah. It's been a while. Huh. Let me see, like there's some more recent ones. Yeah. I guess not much. So pretty soon after they moved to France, basically. Yeah. I call often in UK. Not now, this was two years ago or a bit less now. And after this year after this, as you continue, but after this, I went back, just went when it started Yeah, that was the first time I was trying to Germany a year ago. Nice. But it's really, you're the level of your whinging and the level of everybody's winging has progressed a lot in just one year. It's pretty amazing how much everybody's getting better at a really high rate. Can you give some pointers on landing big jumps? Like how do you keep the landing soft when you do a big air? If you're going like. Most of the time. Yeah. A few moments ago, I realized like it's much better to land on a tape all the time. So that's what I'm doing now. I just end up on a tailoring all the time first. And that's the only advice I can give out. Honestly, there's not much I can say about it before I was trying to learn, but it was like giving lots of pressure on me and everything, but I realized that tail was a bit easier. Yeah. And I've seen some people trying to land with the nose slightly down. So the front wing goes in down at a downward angle a little bit. So it doesn't hit as hard, but then it's hard to pull off. It's hard to pull it off because just the board gets sucked down on onto the water. Yeah. You can do this with small gems, but really once you start doing high, really, you can not do this again, really. So you on YouTube to watch videos on YouTube and YouTube. Yeah. That's the only station I filmed, but now that I'm listening, I'm more involved in this now. Next time. I have been much more of this administration and I only see him that one, but I want to go again. I'm just wanting movies now. What's your, I think like foiling in steep waves is a whole different ball game. So do you have some, maybe some tips or pointers on, like controlling the foil on, on the steep fast wave? Again, can you repeat the question? Oh, just with the foil on a steep, fast moving wave it's just tricky to keep the, to control the foil. So do you have any tips on how to, how you do that or any points? For me, it doesn't feel so tricky. Just depend on if you use the right size of a wing. I think it's okay. This is, this was writing a 500 centimeters square was pretty small, pretty good, small, thin fast wing, basically that you can use in the bigger waves. It makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, it would be cool to see you write those ways this summer. So do you have any plans to go back to new Caledonia? Anytime soon. Not yet. Sadly some now with 15 days of quarantine where there's not much light, so yeah. Maybe I'm going to travel more. Some other places it looks like on this one you are wearing a leash or you said you weren't using any least a leash. This time I was not. I was wearing. Yeah, because there was only one boat and not much people around. So the waves were not so big. So it was okay. But really when I had bigger condition, when this, and I was not using the wind and not using the leash, big base, many people, and it's all my friends. So again, I know if I release my wing somehow, because of course, if I Excel because you're going to help me another thing, if I don't have a solution, I do a mistake. I don't know. I'm jive on attack and I release the wing. And third, like far away in a, in the channel can be a problem. So when there's, when it's big and with lots of people is can help me, but there was no one out. So it was on my own. That's why I was using zoom. I'm just curious when you're coming out of the water after a good session. Are you having dinner too? So when you come out of the water with your gear what is and people come up to you on the beach what is the most common question that people ask you. Like everywhere you mean? And every spot. Yeah, just like when you think that's like the most, most common questions that you get. I had quite a few questions. Maybe the most, the question people ask me the most probably it's how do you get up on small boats? But there was like, I had many, and now less and less because people start to use these small boats too. Especially in the beginning two years ago, when I was using already at 25 ditches boats. So many people were asking me, how do you get up on such small wars? And now I'm using what gear should be grateful. These of this condition. Yeah, they're still looking at the size and Maluma my boss, but not much question about like technique and stuff, because there's not much people sending even trying to do back flips and stuff like this, just stop jumping. So yeah, yesterday I had someone else. Give me, take out, how can I jump a higher. What can I do? Yeah, of course, I'm going to give him tricks. It seems like the question I get a lot, like from people that don't know how to wing for help, they always ask like, how much is it? And they think that they can just buy the equipment and then do it. But once they have the equipment yeah. That's from people that are not already writing, but I thought you asked me what people writing me, like question, but yeah, of course, random people or even, yeah, kite surfers when Sufism will know the prices, but yeah, random people walking in the beach there. They're all asking first. What is the sport? How is it called? And yeah. How much does it cost? Is it hard to write? That's a pretty common question. I think. So this was another different event. That was just a teaser of the, okay. So I went there just to do a teaser for was crazy. The event was crazy strong again. So what what is your favorite move? Do you have a favorite or just depends on the conditions and is there like one, a favorite move that you do now? I like back flips because it seems very easy. So it's nice to do two fro like a good one when there is a good waves in front of me. It's nice when it's like couple waves too. It's to do what we saw a few times. They like to Jen facing the wave and landing again in the waves on whitewater is really great. Cause you can do it sometimes really high and give you like good sensation is same as when surfing. Like you have very good possession. People are doing tricks in the waves, but the tricks, I think the most is like big aerials. So it's the same in wind falling. Okay, cool. Yeah. It's awesome stuff. You're doing. If you let's say you're stuck inside or, like during the pandemic, a lot of people were like quarantined or they couldn't get outside. And and a lot of people get feeling lonely or anxious and depressed and so on. So when you're having a rough day and you can't get on the water, let's say what would you do to stay positive or keep a good outlook? If I have to say, if you're having a hard day, it's always easy to go in the water and have fun. And then that makes everything better. But let's say you can't go in the water. So make it a little bit harder to answer the question. What do you do? I will try to work on something. Now I have to study, I can video or do some stuff like this. So I don't know to make my days better. Probably I'm going to watch some video of not athletes from the past like a few days ago I rewatch, I don't know the name. Red bull TV on a one on one chapter. I don't remember the name, but he has, he made a good video with Jesse Richman CAHE and Robbie nation in Fiji. Yeah. I love to see those videos. It really inspired me. Yeah. Yeah. It's called chapter one. I think. Oh, cool. I have to watch that. Is that kite, a kite surfing video or skate, surfing video all around the world. And there's is a big part in Fiji, some of hers in Indonesia. So yeah. Very nice film to watch. Let's talk a little bit about your wings. Like your, the F1 wings, like how would you compare the original F1 swing to the new F1 strike? What are the differences and what do you like about it and so on. Okay. It's totally different. It's much more steeper. It goes much faster. It keeps his shape. Even if you like pull out your back hand, even strong wind. So that's totally a different way. Like it's yeah, just more rigid. And the profile remains the same with even a lot of pressure on it. And it's still like very light, very easy to use. It's really a wing and much higher too, but that's also the GDT name. And then I, like I saw during the, they have a new wing for racing too with an extra like an extra baffle in it or extra kind of almost like inflatable battens. Is that right? Yeah, I know how to pronounce it in English breeds trust. I think it's the same as the one in the middle of it's a smaller one, but it's not another wing. It's also the try, but be a size from the six meters, three strips. Okay. Let me see if I can pull that up. So yeah, you had it before it's on video, straight wing, but on the bigger sizes they have this extra extra thing here. So what is what does that do? What's the advantage of having that? Cause. So when chip is always touching the water, if you put, if you make the wind bigger, like maids may doing like super wide wingspan, so they had to put so fast on the court, and if you put a lot of code and not was trust was stretched and not going to keep a good shape. So we was three stretch is going to take, keep a good shape. I think this is a profile. The profile is much more like that better. So you get less and less flutter and stuff probably too in the trailing edge. Yeah. Also sometimes in strong winds, turning edge can flap on those ones are not at all. So yeah. Who knows maybe is he gonna use it on the smallest size later? So let's talk a little bit about the foils. Are these the foils that you're using? Yeah. Downright. Yeah. I'm using a nine 40 or is it okay? Yeah, same chamber, much smaller. I know if they're online yet. And and wood, what do you like about it? W why is it? Why does it work? You think it's a medium aspect ratio, so pretty a few brands are coming with this. Now we still have a good glide ratio. You still have a good speed, which of course the smaller, the weight, and also improving, not gonna have the same book because the aspect was a wing makes a good book too. If you have a high aspect, me, you're gonna have a better book in the lower aspect. So this is like a medium aspect wing. It looks like, right. Yeah, that's what I said. So I think And then the, as like a nice curve to it, but then the tips are slightly turned up again. Do you find that helps when you, when the wing tip breaches and helps you help? When the Winship goes to it doesn't catch much bubbles there in the main curve. It's too to have the full stable and maneuverable. Nice. And then the, is it the mass and the fuselage or one piece. Yeah, you can see it with the three screws. The connection between the mask also is two bucks. And then the tail wing. Do you ever do any shaming on the tailoring or do you just use it the way it is or whatever, but this one's already, not that not so small too. And welcome. We have already like smaller sizes tailoring. Yeah. I'm using mesh smaller than these ones, right? She is the curve tailings or is yours more flat or what kind of shape is your, the one that actually the one I'm using now it's more curl will come with stone, like this much smaller. And I think it's going to be better because you have better maneuverability and probably. Better speed too. Is there anyone that you would like to thank for supporting you over the years and in your career? Like anyone that's helped you or supported you? Probably my parents teach me how to, he teach me catcher, so he brings me into his sports and my mother taught me a lot in the beginning. Buy me some gears now. Probably a fun. Cause they took me since beginning withdrew both together. So they helped me a lot in the beginning. And your, are your parents still in yukata? Caledonia? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My parents are living Danza, gonna stay there forever for sure. And you're gonna keep going back there. When do you think you'll ever end up living there again? Or do you like living in Europe better? I really like Europe yeah. Going on a night thing. I really like Ireland too. And was specifically for the condition. The thing is now there is a lot of people don't talk about it. Cause it's, as we talked about in the beginning, it's not a well-known place where there's a lot of sharks attack. Now there's many people eaten by sharks every year, like more than in Australia, many places. So it's going to be a problem for specifically, for people that are going a lot in the world like me. So I will see. And for sure there is good play, good places. Be some nerves. Somewhere else. I haven't been to French refugees, so I have to visit more places to see if there's somewhere else again, I can say, but now I'm not going to stay in France, for sure. Even if I really like space for all the things, but I don't have in islands. Have you been to the Canary islands or any other? I haven't been to canneries. I've been to, I was in the Caribbean this winter too, really? I think I prefer still. I think we've had, I think we have better condition where it's not not also. I have all my friends were, their thing is much easier. Yeah. I think we have very good condition too. Yeah, it looks pretty amazing. For this show about wing fighting, who else do you think I should interview? Are there any other good people or friends you have or people, that would be interesting to talk to for insights about when quilling you've been interviewing Zane bowels and who else Yeah. Yeah, penny Riker for the athletes. Yeah, and a few other people, but yeah. W who else do you think would be good to talk to men and women? You already did, honey, any record I talked to then who, I don't know. I really want to heard about advice and tips from the Spencer boys, or it would be nice if you interview them. Who else. I don't have much. Hi girls. Huh. Who is pushing in France? There's a girl who won here in in the cat. It's Olivia Kenna. Yeah, she's doing good. Who else? I don't know. Who is pushing along, talking to you there? Is there someone in their room with you? You want to say hi she wouldn't be at and say hi on the video now. Okay. Heidi. Just telling me. Okay. So Olivia piano, Jeff Jeffrey. And For sure. I would love to, to hear what Ty thinks about his fame, but I don't know. Yeah. He has time. He's pretty busy. Yeah, it's hard to get him be nasty if you can reach him. For sure. Yeah. Cool. Anything else you want to talk about? Usually like at the end of these videos, most people already left, but there's a few hardcore people that are full, crazy that they're still watching. So do you have a special message for those people that are still watching after an hour and a half to say, thank you to you. It's nice. But various people like you doing this thing for sure is going to interest. Many people are on a roll. And for me, it's nice. You're giving me a person who I'm going to hear because yeah, for sure. I really want to hear what a yeah. So I'm going to look at them for sure. Next month. All right. Thank you very much to rich and to me for this. I'm really happy. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It's always fun to talk about wing foiling and I just find thinking about it and hearing other people give pointers. It's so helpful, when you get on the water and try something new, if you already have to do it again Jeff real  I really wish I had advice for backflips and many for the backups for mum. I didn't try and match, but if I had only a few advice, like I did this video, you should go a lot faster and faster circles. Yeah. Loads of people are doing it and yeah, it's gonna spray many people are gonna do it soon for sure. Yeah, thanks for sharing your secrets. Now you're going to have more competition sometime. Yeah. So you have some tricks up your sleeve that you that you're working on right now. Like new tricks that nobody's seen yet. No, I have to work on it. I haven't, no, I'm not pushing much, honestly. I've been almost always following. Yeah. I didn't learn by flick even the front flips. A few perfectly, but. I came after his one who land one during the competition, the 360, it was probably bus or someone else doing it the first. So now I'm not pushing my freestyle anyway, that's I start liking more and more now, but in the beginning it was not really something I like really, for me, the wing goes in a way and that's it. But now, yeah, cause I said, cause you can do tricks in a way. It make sense for me to also learn tricks and I don't see any yet doing, she'll be only this. So I helped competition going to be more and more in a way. Okay. So one more question. So when you think about like your skills, is it how much of it is just natural talent that you have, naturally talented for the sport and how much is it practice and thinking about it, visualizing, and then just time on the water. We're practicing it. You're asking me about me. Like how much of it is your talent and how much of it is practiced on the water. Okay. That's yeah, I don't want to be like, I don't want to say I'm good. I think I'm not working much like for trick. So I think it comes from talent. Interesting. Really? I just, now sometimes people see me and can look and try to understand. Most of the time now, just on myself, I don't push much money, save myself doing many times and just do a few drinks in my session. So maybe it came from Thailand sometime the video from 11, just in one day is a backlit for me to maybe a bit more for sure. Yeah. It's also all the experience he hasn't before that. And other sports and other things. And also he was the guy who were lending his brother and defray that keeps so for sure he had good advice from them. So what Baltz Miller was saying, like a lot of times he like dreams about wing foiling, or he can't sleep at night and he's like thinking about it in his head a lot and stuff like that. Do you spend a lot of time thinking about weighing foiling or visualizing it in your head or? No, but really I'm not thinking. I'm thinking of a lot of things. It was the thing, but really I'm not really, it depends if I had a really big condition, like a superstition, of course, I'm going to dream about it, but accommodation, even doing tricks and stuff. It's nice, but it doesn't give me like such big waves, man. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. This is really good interview. I appreciate your time. I have to get going too, but good luck with everything. I help you. Stay number one in the world. That's awesome. Just keep doing what you're doing and you're in spirit inspirational. So thank you for that. All right. Okay. Have a good night. Aloha. Bye bye. All right, friends. Thank you for watching another full episode of the blue planet show. You made it all the way to the end. You're one of those elite few people that are crazy enough to watch the whole thing and just can't get enough of it just like me. So congratulations. The show is made just for you. This show is brought to you by blue planet customers, just like you, who support our business. So if you enjoy this show, next time, you're ready to purchase some gear. Please check out blue planet surf.com and I'm sure we have great selection. Great quality, great value that we can offer to you. And if you're watching this in the summer of 2021, please check out our video contest that we're running in June and July of 2021. Submit a video and have a chance to win the $2,000 grand prize. So check out the blue planet video contest. All right. So thanks again for watching. We have more shows coming up soon, Aloha, and I'll see you on the water.

Video voiceover of some recent wing foil drone footage by our local crew of wing foilers: Jason, Daniel, Jeff, Jed and Robert. The drone footage is from three different wing foil surfing sessions in May and June 2021 here on Oahu. This show is also available as a audio only podcast, just search for "Blue Planet Show" in your favorite podcast app, this one is Season 1, Episode #11 Show transcript: Okay, welcome guys. I'm trying something new here on the blue planet show. We're going to play a video that this is video. I shot over the last couple of weeks with the drawn of my friends here on a wahoo, and we're going to watch it together and moderate it, or, do a little voiceover, talk about what's going on and try to give you some pointers and, beginner tips, more advanced tips, any kind of equipment tips we have. And then the conditions are pretty similar and all that is three different days, but the conditions are always like between, I would say between 10 to 20 knots about, it's pretty some lighter moments probably, but pretty decent win on those days. I'm gonna introduce myself first and then we'll go around everybody. Just introduce yourself. So my name is Robert Stellick and one thing I love about wing foiling is this the community like people are so welcoming and friendly. I love that. Hi, my name's Jason. One thing I love about wind foiling is having that freedom and not being able to paddle back to the lineup. So that's one thing I enjoy. Hi, my name is Daniel calling today. One thing I like about when foiling is I'm sharing it with a bunch of friends, all in the water and running away from the crowd and keep, we keep pushing each other every single day. Yeah. Two things I love about waiting for them. So I like going in and out of the surf riding waves. And then I also like trying new things and. That's what I like about our group is everyone's always trying new tricks and things and makes it interesting. So those are the two things I like. Nice Jed, Aloha. I am Jed. And what I love about winning foiling is zipping around when the prone for alert or prone surfers are just sitting there waiting for waves. When we can actually see the waves and just stay on foil the whole time. It's just the best feeling. Yeah, it is an awesome January. So now, okay. So this is the first day out of three sessions that I was filming with the drawn. And I'm going to start with Daniel. Who's writing right here. Can you tell us what gear are you using first? Right now I'm using a four, four. Magic foil board from Glen Pang who shaves platonic country. And I'm on a 72 centimeter mass Armstrong where the 10 50 front wing and a flat tail wing in the back with a 50 fuse and zipper, shim and Armstrong, a foil Abe before a wing four or five wing, right? Four or five. Yeah, 4.5. And this is one of your signature moves at the bet going back winded. Yeah, sometimes I been practicing it too. Like going back winning, like even when the wave is like breaking or steep, just to cooking like faster. To just to get in even in the pocket, like really quick. It seems like it's also a good way sometimes to turnaround without getting like sometimes when you drive, it's easy to get back winded. If the wind is light. Yeah. Then by pulling in you're by shooting in the wing, you don't get that back winded. Yeah. So Off and on little bits, little small, but good practice. Jump board is actually a 36 Dieter board. So it's small. It's almost like my prom board, maybe just a tad bit, little more volume, like two inches, two, two more liters of volume. Okay. So it's not your prom board for prime surfing, use a different board. I use a 33 liter board. How do you like that? When Daniel at? I like it. It's really powerful. Like I tried ozone ANSYS. What else did I try a wing ride, but I really like this and the handles is rigid and I felt that was important, like before anybody came out with rigid handles. And as I talked to Robert recently, like Robert says that he likes his handles rigid also. So I think a lot of the company's been coming out with these rigid handles. And I like it cause it's like it's super strong and then there's two different bladders two pumps. So the. The boom. And then the leading edge, I have the Cabrina acts two and those handles are a little bit floppy. Some people don't mind it, but I don't prefer that. I actually prefer the boom. So I started on the echo and and now I've got one of the slicks, which are pretty nice. Nice. Jeff you, that was just you on the video, but you just got the new echo on the new Ansis V2, or then the new newest model. Yeah. So I was writing the original ANSYS wing and then I recently a couple of days ago, I got the new score wing. So the, we put it on top of each other and they look exactly the same. So we didn't think there's going to be much difference, but there is quite a bit of different. So it feels. Yeah, although it's heavier, like a few answers heavier because of the windows, it's actually has a lighter feel. So when you're lifted off the water, when you're water starting it pops off the water instantly, and then it feels tighter in your hands. Everything is similar to the F1 where they tightened everything up. It feels more responsive and more lively. And especially when you're riding the wave, when you go to Lafitte in the back, it just, you just throw it back there. And instead he just is in perfect position, like the first instance in a lot of the other wings you have to, when you throw it back there, you have to adjust it. Sometimes it wants to do the front legs, but this one, you throw it back in it's level. Perfect. And it's pretty much effortless. So it's a big improvement. Over the other one, I think. And so he basically tightened up the leech and then he flattened the profile. So it's faster through the air, those are the two changes you mean? And then the Leo is on that dark wing yet. It looks, I get that one has so much vianet like it just looks, it looks strange to me that, that dark wing, but I think good part of it is this kind of has a pointy tip too, right? Yeah. I think the design of that was not really intended for wages more for jumping and tricks and back loops in front loops and that kind of thing. And getting here is when you put it on a wave, it wiggles a little bit. That's what the Leo said too, that it it's really good for jumping and then. Ears Corey both Corey and Jason. You are both on the, on a wings too. And Jason, you've been through a lot of different wings. You've tried a lot of different wings. So what do you like about the Armstrong that over the other ones you've tried? I think my favorite thing about the Armstrong is the power that you get and how stiff it is. That day, I believe I was using a five, five, and Cody was on a four or five, eight week. And yeah, also like it for jumping as well, too, and it parts really well when you're actually on the wave and the wingtips are shorter, so it doesn't touch the, like the water surface as much. Even with the five, five I don't really have that much problems actually touching the water surface. So that's the reason why I like that rain and. It's it's, so beef felt like the materials and everything that they put into it. That's probably like one of the best ones that I prep for me for my preference. I like it. Yeah. I tried it too. And what I found that, those, the thing the wingtips are really thick. And even if you do touch down with it, it just seems like they just released really easily. Yeah. It just feels like it just ricochets off the water, which, you know, like calling me and I actually found out but it's a little heavy, but one thing that I do like about it as well too, is the windows. Like most brands you get out there and they don't, you're not able to fold the windows or creases where this one, you can actually fold it, which actually like my wife and I, as soon as we're done, we're just crinkle it up and just throw in the bag and, not. Having a tear and, rip this kinda on what we're looking forward to. Cause we're not like, as you see, it's like my wing hanging on the hook over here. I know Jeff is looking at it or probably is they'll do that. But yeah, that's something I like about the Archstone stuff. It's built that a lot of thought into it. And so you were on a five, five and Daniel was on a four or five. So there's quite a bit of difference in power, right? Between the four or five and the five five, or would you say? Yeah. I think I used a five-pack business kind of like holiday clinic umbrellas. You don't like, I've been getting inspired by you. Jeff and Daniel of course was the leader in the jumping category right now. But I found like this one kind of locks you down, like umbrellas you down a lot more. So it makes it easier on the knees. So that's why I like having a bigger pile and then also like getting the speed and kind of powers you up really nice. It's easier to get going out when the wind's a little bit light. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I fall a lot, so I want something to get me up easy too, because I'm used to such a small board, like Daniel, I'm using a four, four, and it's 22 wide and it's like 45 liters and I'm on a Armstrong, 1250 and it's modified. I lost a little bit with not too much forward, but I've been experimenting with my wings as well, too, but awesome. How did you modify the 1250. So what I did was at con I had a belt sander, and I shaved off the wing tips. I felt like it was biting too much. Like it was tracking lot. Cause I like to actually I want more of that prone feeling like when you're out in the surf. So I wanted something that actually would release like more from left to right when I'm doing like turns I wanted that real juicy feeding. And I felt cutting the wing tips down and I got a flying detail from Jeff, which actually I just love, nothing is just unreal. So that was Corey Jason's wife. We just did a jump. That was nice job. Nice car. So jumping pretty high nowadays, so worry is too shy to be on the camera. So she's like just listening, huh? Then I feel like I got a good combination, with me kinda modifying the wind. I got it to where did you, how did you modify the tailing? So I actually I took off the Wingnuts. I felt like that was tracking a lot, so I took off the Wingnuts and it made it more lively, more, it feels like it gets more responsive. What about you, Danielle were telling, are you using on your arm chunk? Set up I'm using the retail also the flying V with the. Tips on there. So just like stock and I feel it works really good, but I also use this modified towing. It's a 12 inch flat towing and it feels real like loose and real like surfy feeling. So I kinda like that. That's the one that Nico made you the totally flat. Yeah. So my Nico made down. Yeah. And it's really surfy can turn pretty much on a dime, but you need to really control it. Cause it, it can slide out because it's small and flat, but it's really Carvey. What do you think does your, I think you said, but what length is your fuselage? My fuse is a 50 fuse and I'm using the 72 Centimeter mass, which is the 20, but using the same set up for wing foiling and for profiling and for pro. And that's pretty much all I use is this the whole same setup for winging and proning, and that's my favorite setup, like all around. Oh yeah. This is Derek. People always ask about that. Like he has this long leash line attached to, into his wing and this kind of lets it out and flies away above, which is pretty cool. But yeah, he couldn't make it ease at home Depot, but but yeah. Derek always comes up with cool new stuff and try not things and being creative, but that's probably the reason why he's probably at home Depot is probably trying to figure out something. Maybe I think he might actually be working cause he's like winging all day long. So he has to work at night, get some work. But Jeff talk a little bit about your board and I know you're like you went from a big board to a smaller board and then back up to slightly more volume again, right? Yeah. In the learning, we went all the way from down to, from bigger boards. Like I think we started out 80 9,000 and then I went down to a 55 and I rode that for six or eight months. And then it's accustomed Jimmy Lewis. So it's four, six 2255. And then. Winter came and we're up at sailing, the North shore, where the waves are really big and fast and the wind is fluky. So you have to start really quickly. A lot of times before the sets coming in, that little board was sometimes hard to start right away. So I had Jimmy make me a, another bigger one 65 liters. So it's four, 10 23 and a half 65. And now once it feels really comfortable, it starts really quick. And it, I don't really feel the performance has gone down at all from the 55 liter board. But the starting in, when you need to start is really critical. If I, if the wind dies, I still sink all the way up to my thighs. But as long as there's a little wind, you can keep going. And it's a lot more comfortable than that little board. So I'm pretty happy with that one now. Yeah. I definitely like having a boy that keeps keeps me more at the surface of the water instead of sinking weight, starting way underwater. But Jason and Daniel, you both ride really small boards. So what's the reason? What, why, why do you take that compromise and just deal with the starting and light when sometimes and yeah, just why do you use the tiny boards? I been changing it up, so I bring two Wars now I bring my 36 neater board, the smaller like prom board for stronger winds and. I look at, I assess the conditions when I get there. And if it's spotty like off and on, then I'll pull out my bigger port, which is a 54 liter board. And the reason being like, if there's waves, I'd rather be on my smaller board because it's more surfy compared to the bigger boys, like a big long board, but learning five liters for most people is still pretty small, but yeah, it is, it feels very yeah, it just feels like a tank, but if you look at the good guys around the world ridiculous, like balls smaller and his partner he always brings with it. There's a bunch of guys, but when they practice in the lakes, they're not using small prone boards, they're using ticker boards. And the reason being is because when you do the tricks at those bigger boards, instead of landing, when you land, you won't sink, you can stay up on the water and still go, especially on the lighter wind conditions. So I've been just figuring it out and assessing the conditions, see what the wind is doing. If it's strong and there's waves. Then I'll, I'll pull out my small board and go for jumps and surf the waves and practice, whatever tricks I've been practicing. And then my bigger board, like I'll go on the lighter wind days and practice everything that I do with my small board on the stronger wind days. But just through my bigger board. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah I reached just recently started pulling off the flock as, and I think in that move, especially cause you landed flat and you stop and then you restart. That's where I think having a higher volume board really helps a lot. I think keep keeps you on the water, keep you from sinking. It's more likely that you'll pull it off, pull out of it, and you can use a smaller wing, too many, have a bigger board. And so when you're trying to it's easier with that small wing to try and flip it around. Yeah, Robert died like the last few days we've been trying to take out the tiny wings, the wings light. Cause it's easy to just flip the wing all the way around. If it's smaller, it's a lot easier to try to pull off those kind of tricks. Yeah. Having a smaller wing. I always try to use the smallest swing I can because just cause it's so much easier to handle and stuff like that. And I think I'd almost rather have a smaller wing than a smaller board, but I guess it depends having a small, lightweight board is nice too, especially for jumping and spinning and that kind of stuff. It's nice to have a smaller board and turning on the wave carving. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think Daniel hit it right on the money when it comes to assessing the conditions myself too. I'm the same way. When, if the winds are like cranking, then I'll bring out a smaller board. But one thing I made sure, like all my boards actually have inserts so that I don't go out with without my strap. So every board actually has straps now. And then of course, when it's lighter than I'll bring up my 45 meter board and my prone board is only like 34 and a half. And that's the only thing now too, is when I go out, I make sure I have the right when of course I, when I bring all my small Chrome board I tend to use my bigger wings just so that I can get a bottle of water quicker. And then when I ride my lighter or my bigger board, then I'll bring in a smaller rain. Like you folks, you try to get the smallest swing because when you're trying to do all these tricks, you want less materials and weight. So yeah, I totally agree with. Martin maneuverability, everybody's saying the smallest marrying and assessing the conditions for sure. Yeah. Hey, Robert, I made for the mere mortals here. This is a jet Dietrich. I'm actually from Buffalo, New York. So I was out in Hawaii with you just to give them some background. And you've got some video of me later in the show here. I appreciate you having me on, but I'm like a hundred kilograms, about 220 pounds, six foot five. And I come from a wind surfing background and then coding and then code foiling, kite surfing. And I think if you don't live in Hawaii having a bigger board and having more stability can lead to foiling more and really having more fun. So again, I don't, I respect everything that you guys said and your skillset but your physical bodies are different than my size. And I know you're a big guy Roberts I think some people might be watching this saying, I can't see myself ever on a 45 or 55 liter board. I think the enjoyment of getting up on the foil and then. Surfing through smaller waves with a bigger board can still be just as much fun for folks that just aren't on the same level as you guys, and you guys are all on such a high level that it's, it's amazingly impressive, but I think for the standard folks out there who are just getting into foiling, I think the bigger boards with more stability, more width, a bigger front wing help a lot. A hundred percent agree, judge. Yeah. And by the way, thanks for joining us from the East coast. I think it's 3:00 AM for you. And it's 9:00 PM for us in Hawaii. So we're just a little bit after dinner and you had to wake up in the middle of the night to join us. So appreciate that. I appreciate you bringing me in on it. I was in Hawaii for two weeks just a couple of days ago and I met you obviously, and I got one of your Carver foil boards, 114 liters. And I was using that. I brought my hand wings and I'm on an Armstrong set up. I've got a 2,400 front wing and a 300 back wing, 72 centimeter mass. So I've got the big guy set up and I think that. The criticism of that setup is it's not as tourney. You can't make maneuvers. It's not as loose, but frankly for someone my size and at my skill level I'm having a great time. So I know I can go down like you guys to smaller things like the two 32 HS, which I have, and I've got an 1850 HS, a front wing again, Armstrong stuff, and those are great. But if it's 10 to 20 or 10 to 15 and I can't get on foil, I just think about Rob our Greg Knoll and riding giants, man, if you can't catch the wave, it means nothing. So if you can't get on foil, you're not having fun. So I go with the bigger gear and maybe I can't turn as much. My skill level continues to go up with the experience, getting the mileage on the water, and then I'll go down to smaller stuff. Just the way you guys have gone. Even from a hundred liters down to 55 liters. Yeah. And yeah, it's starting on a big wing. Totally makes sense. A big foil because it just allows you to start in lighter winds. You'd need less speed to get it going. And then also in a jive or in a transition, you just have way more time. Because even if we slowed down a little bit, you can still recover. So pull out of it with the big foil. Yeah. And then I would definitely say like when you're starting out, don't want to start on a small foil or small, thin foil that's definitely something you want to leave for later a little bit better. What I find interesting too, just wanted to mention is for us here on a wall, it seems like all, almost all of us in this crew. I think maybe except for Jeff, we always keep our feet in the same stance we got, we all have foot straps. You have pretty small boards. When I see videos of other places, people either don't have foot straps or they have three foot straps and they always switch feet and they have bigger boys, wider boards. And then they all always have bottom handles, which we don't, none of us has the handle on the bottom really. Like things like that. It's interesting how, yeah. As it's like different people see different things as important or not important, just from what everybody else is using around them. I think so that, how is it in Buffalo? What kind of equipment are people using on the Lake there? As I mentioned before we started, we actually have a pretty good spot for kite surfing, wind surfing, because Buffalo is connected to Lake Erie and about 20 miles South of Lake Ontario. And we can go, I've got about 40 different venues within. Between 45 minutes and an hour near my office, I'm actually lawyer in Buffalo. I can get to a spot about 20 minutes away. So today actually went there about 20 minutes away from my office that worked until about two and there wasn't any wind. And there was a little thermal that came in on the Niagara river. And in that scenario, when you're looking at eight miles an hour or two 15 or 16, I do not want to be slogging around. And like a 90 meter board, I've got a 90 liter, six, four starboard twenty-five inch hyper foil board, which just makes life so much harder for me. So what I prefer actually is the Jimmy Lewis it's 114 liters. It's a flying B, which is a really nice board. It's, it will flog for me, decently. And again, I'm speaking Windsor for language, but I think that's the language that goes with the wing foiling, because the crossover with the the muscle memory from the wind surfing is just, I've been wind surfing like 15 years. I, I wouldn't surf, but I started one surfing about 10 years old for in about 1980, 79. And then I call you in about Oh six and for 15 years or whatever, 12 years. And then this past year I switched over. And the comparison between closing the gap with a wing foil A sail and a wind surfer. I think it's just so similar. I'm probably speaking language that any of the one surfers, any of these guys here for windsurfers and that's the way it goes. So in Buffalo, the gear is a little bit bigger, although we've got some pretty, pretty avid people. I got a good friend of mine who goes down to Jupiter, Florida, and he gets it probably 50 or 60 days in the ocean, down in Florida. So he is going towards smaller gear and the waves are bigger. There, we get more Flatwater I'm working on a four-lane tax and things like that, just because we don't have as much wave action. So that's why when I was in Hawaii is such a great time. So Danny, you want to tell the story that you told earlier about that? What happened at that spot today? Oh, so it was it was like four or five of us out. And so we're winging and we're going in and out for an hour or so. And then we come to the inside reef where we jive or tack to go back out and we turn right by the grief. And our friend, Todd Bradley says, diode has a big shark. And I was like, what? He was like, yeah, it's eight feet just went on the road. And I'm like on my little prom board. And I'm like, Oh my God should I just leave and go in cause I'm on the inside already. Like just dig out. But I seen there was like four more people out there and one of them was like, Jason's wife, Cody. And there was like, Nani is girl naughty. And then there's this other kid Ghana. And as a young kid, so I just the screaming at everybody as a shark. And so first thing, Cody is gone and then I told Naya and she was gone. And then the other kid was like, what? Really? Really? And I was like, we're out of here. And he was like, okay, let's go ahead. So we all dug out and went in, but we got to shore and then some other guys just pumping up and then we told them and some of them, a couple of them went out like kid count and went back out. And one of the guys in this video, like Lindale, he was like, ah, I'm just gonna leave it. But. Leave it for the locals to have their lunch out there. And I was like, Oh, okay. And so Todd said the shark was huge, like eight feet tiger going underneath. And so that's where we fall is like right inside there all the time, because that light yeah. Like checking out the foils too. They think it might be a, yeah, I'm not sure it's scary. And I got a big gash on my foot from the floor wasn't because of me like, like a lot of blood, but I don't think so. It's pretty nuts. Yeah. Pretty crazy. I wish I had a bigger board. I could stay on the board, but like again, like when Jared was talking about his 90 liter board and whatnot, I think for like guys that do it in the Lake, their boys need to be thicker than the guys here, like in Hawaii. Because again, I think the saltwater and freshwater is different. Like when I used to go surfing in California, I took my regular board from Hawaii up and I'm like, Oh my God, I can't even surf. I can't even stand on this board. It's sinking. So you, with the California water, mainland water, you sink a lot. Whereas like here in Hawaii, we can go with the less, that small leaderboard. So everybody in the world that chip, like, how do you as ride that thing? You know this because our water, like the salt water, it has more flotation. Yeah. That's the thing. And I don't think people would understand that until you come here, you can feel it right. Jet. Oh, yeah, I just, I, Kahala is a great spot.  I've been watching your videos Robert for again last eight months or so. Cause when I started, I got a link foil set up about eight months ago and I just went all in and lock, watching these videos and I see the third column and I emailed you and said, where are you at? So when I first got to wide a couple of weeks ago, when I showed up, I think I met Daniel the first day and he was super friendly, total low hobble hallway gave me a cell phone number and these texts me every morning okay, we're going to go out. You got a great spot and then the one that you said we were going over to to diamond head and that's actually where I think I'm in some of this video around 33 minutes. And that was just  a great experience over time and had that nice wind over there and good waves. Yeah. And that here's non-issue she was also out at Diamond had with you guys, but I'm pretty impressed by nanny. I guess she could kite surf before she started waiting for them, but Daniel, you helped her to teach her right wing foiling. I did from boiling to whinging and she pretty much learned to wing for on a pretty small board. She never really started on a big board, right? No, he hated the big boards and so like she had a small Armstrong board that she bought from a friend and I let her use one of my wings, which is a four meter also. And surprisingly, that will never, Paul never had bladder issues. It's pretty solid, but she's been using that and she pretty much, it's taken off like we got a, like a good group of girls at Kahala. That's pretty much ripping Nani and Cody, and then talk these coming over from Kyla now and she's ripping. That's the three girls that's just going to be pushing each other. I don't see any other girls on this Island as good as probably Cody and talk these coming up and Nani is just, she finally got footsteps today Oh yeah. So you know how she does with the jumping, but yeah. They're going yeah. And something I for, yeah, something I wanted to just mention to women too. Sometimes women think that you need a lot of upper body strength and whatever that they're disadvantaged, but it's really more about Finessin. And I think a lot of times, if anything, women are probably more, more balanced and coordinated than guys in a lot of ways, it's like for her to be able to do this already after only two months or whatever is pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I got to say watching, like the ones who get really good, the ones who want it, they put the time on, in the water and there's not one hour and then go in, they're all out there. Like Cody, I watch her and she's out there like three, four hours and probably more than anybody else. I know. She'll probably do two hours go in and her and Jason we'll have launch in and drink and rest and then go right back out. That's the only way you get better as the more time you put in it. Unfortunately, some of us got to work. Sorry, you guys. But I see quality today like launching off with some waves going pretty high with her jumps and I never see. A girl, do that maybe like in Mali or like on Instagram, but live. I was like, Oh, pretty impressive. She's jumping pretty high from Flatwater to jumping off waves. She getting pretty high and I was like, wow, she's getting good. Yep. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. We'll see, we don't have any women that are winning in Buffalo. I was trying to get my daughters to do it today, but they weren't buying it. Yeah, this is a diamond head. So that's, I've got that Cabrina right there. That's you right there, dead handling. And that's got the floppy handles, but I put an Armstrong bar between it, which tighten it up a little bit. But if you said, is that my favorite program? I would say probably not just because it's just a little bit loose. But the handles have a rigid part in the middle, right? So they stiff in the middle, but then the connection between the strap and the handle itself is that's where the looseness comes from. Or I've never tried it too long handles. That's a Cabrina X too. It's got a long handle. It's about, I don't know, 14 inches in the front and just two little webbing straps holding it in. And then there's a separated area about four inches and another one. So what I did is far apart. Yeah. I took the Armstrong bar though and put it between the two to try to tighten it up, which helped a little bit, but still, I don't think it's the optimal arrangement. I actually really liked the the slick situation with the mini boom. I would really rather have more stability is stiffer program. I know it's not as good to flag out that's for sure. But for like for link tax and pumping up onto the wave or getting foiling I liked that. But I'm getting more into the wave stuff, so I'll be back in wine in a couple of weeks. So we'll see how the, how I can get that to work. Yeah. Jeremy and I tried to prototype of this slick and obviously as a windsurfer, I love having that rigid boom, but I did find that too. Like when you love it, it doesn't like the profile, doesn't it doesn't love very well. It stays rigid as it has this really rigid, stiff profile. So even when you love it, it's like a really thick kind of heavy wing and it doesn't really. Totally deep power, right? It doesn't feel, it still feels like it has pull on it even when it's left at somehow. Is that how you feel about it too? Yeah, no I do feel that way and again, everything's a give and take. So for my situation, because I, we do get waves, but it's gotta be super windy. The wind driven waves. They don't have a lot of push behind them. Like Ontario, they're a little better than Lake Erie, but in general, I just don't have sets coming through like you folks do. So the majority of the time, 80% of the time, let's say I would rather have better low end stiffer, better to come around on a foiling tack everything's stable versus a lighter type scenario. But I would be interested in knowing which one, which w handling do you guys think flags out the vest, which one floats behind you? The best guys. For me, it's hard to say. I tried a lot of different wings and some of my, you always have a compromising, a lot of people think, Oh, I just need this wing or I need that equipment and this and that. But a lot of times I think the current generation of wings are all pretty good. It's not like that. There's some, I don't think any of the bigger brand name wings or there's any bad ones really. It's just, they have different things that they're good at and different things. You're not as good at, for us riding waves. Yeah. We like weighing that handles really well. Bluffing and yeah, I don't know. I think all the ones we use are more oriented towards that. The ozone Armstrong, the PPC wing that I'm using and the ANSYS, I don't know which one do you think is the best? Jeff, you've tried it a lot. I think I agree with you. There are really good, except just recently using that instance, score that one kind of stands out now just because it just getting it into that position is so quick and easy. Like when I was using the first instance wing, sometimes when I put it back, it would dip and flip over, and then you've got to flip it back, but this one, you push it back there and it just instantly goes into the perfect spot. And it feels effortless. So that's so far, that's the best one I felt in terms of getting it back there for flagging, it just stays there. It doesn't, you don't even really know it's there. And you can like that one in the F1. You can actually let go of it and just hold it by the leash. I guess they call it walking the dog. And it'll just park up there without even holding the handle. I think. For me, those are the best two ones I found. Especially that new instance, I'm really liking that one. Yeah. And that's, I think that happens with a lot of wings, especially if you're going fast and a little bit Upland on the going up, went on the wave. If you let go of it, sometimes it still has kind of power in it and then tends to want to. Yeah, like you said, like the leading edge wants to dip down. And you almost have to force it into neutral. So yeah, that's cool. That's good. Yeah. Like a lot of the wings I'd have to let it go back in and pull it forward to the airfield under it. So then the front would indep, he had to do that backward forward thing, but this one, you just throw it back there and it's. Instantly. Perfect. It's pretty good. I was talking to Eddie and he said that the PPC wing, which kind of has a real nice neutral handle handling and it's stays level by itself. But he was saying he was having a hard time tacking it because when he puts it over his head, it just flies level and it's harder to make it switch from one side to the other side, so I was telling him me, I push it over in the tack, so it goes push it over to the other side. So it doesn't get parked in that flat position, because once it's in that flat position, it's really hard to get it back out of it. Yeah. I thought that PPC wing was really nice actually as well balanced if we really well. Yeah, like you said, they're all really good now this second generation of wings. Yeah. They're all, duotone the other dual tones. They definitely like the first wing for that. I had. I had to pretty much always hold the handle because if I held the front handle, it would just start flip-flopping and then just flip over on the wave. So that was like a totally different style of whinging, but it's still worked. It's not like it was terrible and now it actually was really good for tacking because it would just talk over by itself. Almost. I get had so much V in it that it just wanted to flip over from one side to the other by itself. You didn't have to push it at all. It just did it by itself. So how long ago do you think that was, that you were still riding that thing? It wasn't that long ago, right? A year ago. Yeah. Last year. Last summer, I think is when I got the echo. Yeah, last summer. And then when did you start writing the PPC. The PPC. I got the first one in early this year, I think. Yeah. 2021. Yeah. Just within a year, it's your sailing has evolved a lot, from holding the front of the Deuteron until now. You're doing a lot of things differently, the PPC, and then you're trying to fuck us in all that. Yeah. Definitely having a wing that handles well, it makes a difference, especially if you get, if you're getting more advanced, but I would say for a lot of people don't obsess over having the perfect gear because it's more about the time on the water and get practicing and and just getting used to it and making, making the most of it. Every everything's gonna have some pluses and some minuses, like it's hard to have everything in one wing, like a wing that's better in the ways might not be as powerful or might not go upwind as well or whatever for Flatwater and so on. I think that's where a wing, like the That do a ton. Slick is a really good Flatwater wing, as powerful as compact. It's good for like kind of Flatwater going back and forth and going fast and stuff, but maybe not as good in the waves, and I think that's where duotone, they have that slick for those kinds of conditions. And then they have an echo, which is more of a wave riding wing, that's what Ken, when they said that he designed the echo more as, and not the echo what's it called? The other one. Jason, you had that one, the unit right. Unit and unit is more of a wave wing right now. Yeah. I think Jed hit it on the head. If you're not having fun, if your equipment's holding you back from having fun, then it's not happening. So that's the primary thing. In terms of buying equipment, you got to buy what's right for you where you sell and be realistic. So that you're on well, Elena was seeing and. You actually having, that's what it's all about having fun. Yeah, I, I had a friend actually here in Buffalo. I started on a gold foil. Malico two 80, because again, I'm like 220 pounds, 65. I'm athletic and I'm fit, but I wanted to make it as easy as possible. And I got out of that thing. And the first day I went out, I was spoiling going back and forth. It was almost spoiling through terms the first day on that Melisko two 80 and a friend of mine, who's actually a very competent, tight forward. Excellent. Tight foiler he was on Moses type foil equipment. He went like right to the 99 liter Armstrong with an 1850 HS. And he farted around in the water and got dragged and he didn't have a good experience at all. It took him probably four months where I pretty much got right on. And I would say our skillsets were very similar, but he didn't start with big enough gear. And I think it wasn't as much fun now he's doing pretty good, but he like, he went to that detail right away and I don't think he should have gone to it because he was out the other day and he couldn't get up on foil and the VTL doesn't have as much squirt surface area. So if you're pumping, it's not going to pump as well as the 300. So I think you really got to look at your conditions for sure. Yeah, that's a good point. I think you shouldn't worry too much as a beginner about buying the advance. Like a lot of people are like, Oh, I don't want to outgrow my gear too quickly. So I'm going to get more advanced stuff. And then, but like you said, like a lot of times it just leads to struggling, but on the other end, there's those people like Nani who's started on a small board and got some good instructions from Daniel, but, she never really had to use a bigger board, so she figured it out right away from the start on a small board with the smaller foil. So that's pretty impressive. But she also has a background in kiting and watersports background. Yeah. Yeah. She's been cutting. I dunno for how many years? Probably like 10 years or so, and now she don't even do it anymore. She just wings I'm like, so Danielle. When you first started the thing, like I remember going out and Kyla with you and a few other guys that were just starting and that we were practicing on the beach and stuff like that. And you had this huge stand-up paddle board that was a seven, seven, eight like a standup paddle board with a foil box in it. And I did drag the thing what is that from like the clay area all the way back up to the boat round, probably like a mile over a mile. And I had a lift wing, which is like a lift 200 surf. And that thing couldn't lift that thing at all with a four meter way. And I'm like, so what you guys was just talking about, I think you got to go big or like they say go home because it's not going to happen. So everybody who starts, I like. Go big. And they're like, no, Nope, go big everything. Big foil, big board, big wing. And that's the easiest way for you to pretty much get up on four and you learn faster. Yeah. Yeah. So like it took me one month because I went live 200 surf wing, four meter ozone wing and a seven, eight board. And that's not a good combination. It took me one month to get on flow, which I was about to quit. I was going to quit. I was telling Jason and my other friend, David, and they were like, don't quit. And I was like, ah, I think I'm going to quit. And sure enough, our other friend, David, he quit in Florida. We stuck it all in. We're still doing it because. Just us being together, like with Robert and Jeff and Derek and, Todd and all these other handful of guys that we win-win. We just, now we just pushing each other, we just stick it out and just try to progress. Yeah. No, it's definitely fun to go out with friends because yeah. Like whenever we go out together, we push each other and stuff like that. Yeah. But then sometimes actually I find that I actually have really good sessions when I don't have that pressure to like, when there's no one outside, I'm just by myself and nobody's watching then for some reason I wing better when they don't have that pressure of trying to and show off or whatever, and then th there was another guy in this video. The guy, Danny Samante, he had an orange F1, but he's been really doing really good too. And he's like in his fifties and he's. He's been coming along like really well, like tacking and jumping. Like he's just so into winging now. Like he's hot. That's all he wants to do is just wig. Like I barely even see him stand up for her anymore. And he's a really good stand-up foil. He's a legend. Like he started like before me, like Stan, like foiling, I asked him about it back in the day and it was hard. And he said, no, it's easy. I was like, okay. I think I better try it. But yeah, he's got really good. Like he's bossing like airs off waves too, like going high. So he loves jumping. Yeah, he loves jumping, but just now that was Eddie and Mario coming in perfectly at the end of their session. So that was a good one to, to watch. If you want to come in at that spot at Kala coming over the reef, you got to know exactly where to go and we're not to go more importantly. Alright, that was all the footage we got. You guys have anything else to add? Any tips for learning beginner? The people getting into the sport. The one thing I would say is you really can't be too old. We got a guy here in ball float. He gets guys is hard as nails, man. He's tough guys, construction guy. He's 72 years old. And he was a kite foiler. So he had foiling experience, but he switched over and he's getting dragged all around and everyday comes in with a smile on his face and he just can't be happy. Any happier learning something new. I think that's going throughout our group here, you learn something new, you get a challenge, you try to go further, you get a challenge and it's so rewarding when you're together with your bodies and cruising along above the water with no sound and no friction, it's actually easier on your body. So I think that's the greatest thing about it. You don't have to be super fit. You have to be dedicated and tenacious, but the end result, if you stick with it is great. Yeah. Yeah. I would say. No matter how frustrated you are just keep going. Don't give up. Like in the end, it's rewarding. I think also just like Jason said, just keep buying, but maintaining just try to be safe. Sometimes it's pretty scary. Like I said, I slipped my toe the other day from the foil and just got out and I didn't know it was that big, but it stood it right open, but just try to be safe and and try not to go up by yourself, like chubby with, a couple of guys or another guy, as it can get dangerous. Was that from your retail? No, that was just from I don't know what part of the tale, but I was using the flat tail and I just, I, what I'm taking is when I fell, cause the wind was light with a shorter leash, which is only like four feet, it tends to sling back at you. And so it's, it pulled back quick on the water when I came up and it sliced my foot, I'm thinking I might have to start hitting a longer leash. I had one before, but I just changed to a port for leash, but I think four foot is too short. Yeah. That's what I like about the retracting leashes that your board has stays away from you until you want it back again. So I'm looking at that too, looking into the like I'm tryna get along, maybe go to back to a longer leash, at least a six foot. Cause I think the four foot is just too short. It always comes back at me real quick or it'll come back. But then the board of flip upside down, because it just it's whipping back. So the board would just spin upside down in the fall. But in the air you don't have enough, what's your ag dangerous for your wing, right? Yeah, for my wing. And when I come up, I see it like coming at me too sometime. So I think I might change leash for sure. Some of you are sitting and watching this video and you haven't even started winging and what you're thinking about getting into it. There's a bunch of us who would do lessons. Daniel does lessons, Danny does lessons, and we've seen the progression of how people learn. So if you can find someone to help you, that's very helpful. They don't have to be a professional instructor. You can find one. That's great, but if you don't have one in your area, find a experienced winger. And because there's certain safety things about winging that you need to learn. And then make your experience a lot more fun and then faster. A faster learning curve, if you get good instruction, because like you can like when Rob and I first tried to, when we, the first thing we did was a five mile dollar lender and we figured it out along the way, but that's not really the way to do it. Cause you know, you can get stuck out there, the wink and therefore can flip over and puncture the wing and then you're stranding, so there's things like self rescue leashes and all these safety things that you need to learn. So you have find someone who you think is competent at your beach and see if they can give you some pointers and then get the proper equipment like Jared was saying, you might need some bigger equipment. And then you can also do things like learn on a sub board, just get a sub board and just practice, swing handling on that. You don't even need to have before and then incorporate the four later. Yeah, so getting some kind of advice is very helpful. If you cannot do that, then Rob has a whole bunch of really good videos that he's posted. And there's other good videos online about how to wing. There's a whole series by ozone. There's other guy gunner. He also has a bunch, but he used to go on YouTube and search how to wing. You'll be surprised how much stuff pops up, but spend some time investigating and researching that and learning before you go out. And and then yet I'm sure, whatever you do when you get out there. You'll I guarantee you'll have a good time. If you take it the proper steps, we know one at a time, so it's very addicting and it's also rewarding at the same time. Yeah, Damian, Leroy. Those guys are doing some really good videos too instructional videos online. So yeah, there's a lot of good information on YouTube for sure. And yeah, for beginners, what else was I gonna say? Yeah. Sorry for Robert. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to mention that try to learn one thing at a time. Don't try to learn foiling and weeing at the same time. Basically. You want to learn the wing hand Lang separately. Jeff was saying either on a standup paddle paddleboard with ideally with a daggerboard like an old windsurf board works long. Cause it keeps you up when better. And then yeah. Skateboard boards are great, except that people can tend to damage their wings easily. If you drag the wing tip on the asphalt, Dennis kind of ruin it, but so you want to avoid that. You want to avoid that for sure. But yeah, it's that's it for me. That's how I learned how to tack basically as on escape me to figuring out how to tack and shift the wing over your head and stuff like that. Because you can just take your time and you're not going to come off the foil and stuff like that. And then, yeah, and this practicing a lot on the beach with the wing, just getting used to the wing, handling, understanding how to lift up the tip, but keep it. Keep the wing pulling you forward without touching the tip on the water, basically. And that's a skill you can learn before you get in the water and save you a lot of falling in and getting back on again. The other thing is going out on the right day. You want 15 miles an hour or 15 to 20 when you first start, because if you go out in 10, you're just gonna, you're gonna float around. And if it's over 20, you're probably going to get blown off the water. Right guys. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually funny. Cause the first wing that I got duo only had one, three meters size wing available. So I sent it and so I had to learn on a three meter wing and could really only go out when it was like blowing 25 knots or something like that. But then it worked fine. That's actually why I, the opposite situation, I got a six meter rolls on wasp and I, again, taking my own advice, there was probably way too much wind. It was about 25 miles an hour over the six meter ozone and in the 186 liter, easy foil that easy for that. I bought from you, Robert where the huge front Wang. And when I was over foiling, I was going over to the side and the thing, it was just, it was a mess, but then you learn and then you get a smaller setup and you get dialed in. Yeah. And yeah, one thing that's really cool about winning the thing is that it's just not, it's not as is Agora surfing or is this everyone's welcoming? There's like plenty of room. There's like a lot of places you can go there's you can ride waves that other people don't really want to ride anyways, where there's like a diamond and we just go off to the side where none of the surfers want to go anyways, cause the waves are too soft over there, but Yeah. Is this allows you to get out, get away from the crowd like Danielle was saying, and then you don't have all the, you don't, you're not like packed at a point where the wave breaks and everybody's like shimmying to get the perfect spot to catch the wave. And so on. Is this more you get more time on the foil and more time having fun and not stressing about stuff, I think, and so it's great ways to get, sorry, go ahead, Jason. Yeah, you don't have to paddle. You just catch a wave and you don't have to paddle back out to catch a wave. You just pull down to the wind and get back out and get another wave and that's pure enjoyment. Just hear everybody cheering each other on it. So you guys noticed when you're over at diamond head and the, all the surfers, the prone surfers are just laying in the water and they're envious and they're looking at you like, geez, man, like I got to paddle for waves and wait for waves. And I can't see waves. That's the thing I just love about it because you can just zip all around. You're really, if it's windy enough you're never really in the water unless you're doing a Trek and fall. We have this good spot here, which is like a foiler is paradise. And it happens in a winter and it's called Kahana Bay. And when that thing is smoking weed, when we get about an and good waves, we get about 60 guys, all in that Bay of foils. So now us wingers started whinging behave. We go way out and come in like bumps. And I get like Texas, like messages, good to see out there, buy a home. Next time it rains. Like we just, we get, like I told my friend, you should try winging it. And he said, no, I don't like it. And I said, okay I'm just going to catch 20 ways to your ways that Kahana is like, no, you're not. And I'm like, okay. So I showed him, I'm going to catch so much waves. You'll probably only catch three for your whole two hours. So that's fun too. Cause it's blowing on shore. So it's really hard to paddle back out. Yeah. It takes a long time to get all the way back to the outside and you're paddling and yeah. And even pumping out as hard too, because you pumping into the wind. So it's so hard. Exactly. So when we get like people like us swingers from the South shore and then the North shore guys come down and we meet up at Kahana and we're we get our own like all the filers with big smiles on our face. I'm like, Go off. Yeah. Yeah. On any last words? I appreciate your stoke there. Thanks for including me, Robert Aloha. Thanks for Jenny has Jed. Can't wait for you to come back in August. Thanks Daniel. You guys are so welcoming. It was just, I had the greatest time. And again, I just met you guys a couple of weeks ago and Robert and I have been going back and forth, but sharing the stoke and being on the wave with you is just been amazing. I've just had a great time. So thanks for your, you did super good. I was amazed how you. You like switching stance and whatnot. I'm like, I can't even do that. Like I should sing ah, it's so funny. Sure. You could, but again, we don't have the waves, so we, we do different stuff. I was funny. I was talking to one last little tip here. I was, I'm actually learning how to go with my feet right next to each other, like my shoulders, my feet, or anything, my shoulders. So that, helps you get your four and a half foiling and your side to side foiling. And it kinda makes just everything a lot easier in terms of switching feet. And I may be telling you guys something you, you already know, but for folks out there who are just going from foiling to jiving, to learning how to tack, that's a great way to get your balance in order, and to keep your feet together and actually go through the jive both ways with your feet right next to each other, right. Or any of your body. It's a great way to learn and then just switch your feet. Yeah. Yeah, I did here, I think here on Oahu, like there's only like a handful of guys that can switch on one of them is Jeff. Is this I think Zach and Glen L can too. Jeff, but it's so hard. Like the rest of us, we really want to try, like I tried and I almost eat my fate my fault. And I'm like, I'm over this yeah. It's not so hard to, I think you have to learn it on a bigger, more stable board where you can touch down and switch your feet. And I did it at one time, like on a six, six Oh, and a bigger, wider Senate paddleboard. And I could do it like Hawaii, Kai and water, but then on a smaller was like, yeah, it's like impossible. So I gave up on it again. Yeah, I think it's the crating background. So that's why he's talking, going out switch and I switched. But for those of you out there, we have this Awahoo wing foyers group. It's a WhatsApp chat group and there's some hilarious back and forth going on over there as well as some awesome videos and photos being posted. But the one recurring one that comes up is switch. And there's maybe the prompt filers are the pretty much don't switch because they're used to just staying in one stance. And then the kiters like, they're pretty used to switching from creating. And then, so the topic will come up switch and Derrick's done most notorious. He goes, what new needs switch? And then Zach and Grinnell popping what? What's so hard about switching. So is it recurring just so you guys know it pops up every. So often we get this switch controversy popping up on our chat group. So it's not only on this talk here, but it's on that chat group and in the whole community on a wall, it's interesting. I've noticed no need to switch, right? I gotta say like switching the switching it I see the pros and cons of it. If you switch and you're going out to a wave, you better make sure you're switching back to your regular stance because you're not going to surf that wave in a switch stance. What I do. So make sure you on your game, because when that wave is coming down, you don't want to be stuck, like getting more, but at whitewash with your wing and I can see, so that's what I can see. Like their expires, don't need to switch cause you just going right into the wave. On your good stents, but on the other hand like Darnell and Zack, where they talk about switching, I, and as I look, and I see Jared and Jeff and Zach and Glendale, like while we're all, I see them like shooting up when so hard. And I'm like on my tool set, I'm like, and I'm losing ground. And I'm like, I wish I knew how to switch because you guys just pull up like way ahead of us. And it's ah, that's not fair. I got to learn that. What is so hard, like crystal to pull the trigger and even practice it. Yeah. The only time I actually do it is just if I get blown away down when, and have to go way back up men again, or if we're going out at diamond head, then you can just go way out in one tax switch and go all the way up to the break. So that's the only time I've ever switched. Cause you're right down yet. If you. Once you tap, finish your tack, you got to jump your feet and then go back out, so you gotta make that jump basically. Yeah. If there's ways right before the wave, it's sketchy, but I see Jeff he goes way out to see like the whales. I'm like, Oh my God. Then he starts coming back in, like on his switch stand side and just sheeting in like hard. And I'm like, Oh man, like even getting up. Sometimes I used to see him just get up on his switch side, which is pulling him like almost punch like straight into with the wave and getting up with the wave. It just makes you get up on flow easier. And so I'm like, huh, man. I wish I knew how to switch, but it's just, I dunno, I don't want to put a trigger. I got to stick with Derek and Morty there. I give you guys credit for switching now, man. Yeah. And I just wanted to say Jed to the reason why I invited you is because you like, your stoke level is so high. I mean that you get up at three in the morning to be on a zoom call with us and just like emailing me like five times a day about your new board and whatever. Clearly they excited about waiting for them to have that kind of stuff. Stoke level. Just great to be with people who share a passion for being outside, getting exercise. Getting those endorphins going. I totally liked Damien Leroy cause he, he talks about a lot of fun stuff. Like getting out there, shoulders, share the stoke of Aloha, treat others the way you want to be treated, get through life and have a good time while you're doing it. Cause you're only going to do it once. So I think we're all together on that one. Yeah. All right. I think that's a good note to end it up on. Hey, thank you everyone for watching the video and Aloha. I'll see you next time. We'll have to do this again. Next time we have some good footage. We'll show it again. Thank you guys. Bye-bye. Blue Planet,SUP,Stand Up Paddleboarding,paddle boarding,Mark Raaphorst,Wing foil,Podcast,Interview,Wing surf,wing,wingsurf,wing foil,foiling,Robert Stehlik,surf,hawaii,wing foil gear,how to wing foil,foil wing,SUP foil,surf foil,foil surfing,wing foiling,wing surfing,surf foiling,wing surf,wing surfer,foil board,Blue Planet Show,podcast,SIC,Sandwich Islands Construction,sup racing

Mark Raaphorst knows how to make boards that are both light and strong. After building SIC into an internationally known brand, he simplified his life and now runs a one man operation building high quality foil boards under his Flying Dutchman label. www.oneflyingdutchman.com Thank you for watching! If you enjoyed the video, please give it a thumbs up, subscribe to our channel and turn on notifications to see our latest videos posted on a weekly basis. Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bpsurf/ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blueplanetsurf Blue Planet Surf - Hawaii's SUP and Foil HQ 1221 Kona St Honolulu, Hi 96814 Tel (808) 596 7755 open 10 am to 5 pm Hawaii Time, closed Wednesdays and Sundays http://www.blueplanetsurf.com Here is part of the show transcript: Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, which I produce right here in my home office, in the garage. This is my little recording studio right here. And today's guest is none other than Mark Raaphorst. On this show, I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and ask them in-depth questions about wing foil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better. Find out about their background, how they got into the sport and what inspires them and how they live their best life. I realize these interviews are really long and not everybody has time to watch these long videos. I personally like the visuals, I'm a visual learner, so that's why I add the video. But if you don't want to sit there and watch video for an hour and a half, you can also listen to these shows as a podcast, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app. And you can listen to it while you're driving or on the go. Today's guest is none other than Mark Raaphorst, the founder of SIC- Sandwich lslands Construction, and now Flying Dutchman foil boards. So some really cool insight into his background, how he grew up in Holland and moved to Maui when he was only 16 years old and then got into the business of building boards and how he loves tinkering and experimenting. And 80% of his experiments fail, but 20% are the ones that make all our lives a little bit better. So thank you, Mark, for doing all that research and experimentation, that benefits all of us. He gives us some really good insights into Wingfoiling and downwind foiling, foils in general, board design, and so on. So I really appreciate mark sharing his time and also for sharing details about his personal life and living life to the fullest, and basically following your dream and finding a balance between working hard, doing what you love, but also enjoying life and kind of having some free time and not having all the stress of running a business, which I can totally relate to Mark. So thanks again for your time. And without further ado here is mark. Okay. Mark Raaphorst. Welcome to the blue planet show. How are you doing today? All good. Thank you for having me. Yeah, fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on. I talked to previously, I talked to Alan Cadiz and Kane De Wilde on their interviews and they both mentioned you as someone I should talk to probably, and that they're, they're both you used your board showing foiling and really liked them and so on. And I think you're probably one of the most knowledgeable guys in, in the industry, but when it comes to board building and design, so I'm really impressed by what you've done over the years. But can you talk a little bit about your background? Like where are you from and how you got into watersports and how you ended up on Maui? I grew up sailing with my dad and the Netherlands and that soon turned into windsurfing. We're talking 1984. And I learned how to build custom boards in the Netherlands and saving it. I want to pursue that career more so not just by sanding and glassing with more shaping left the Netherlands when I was a little grommet, maybe seven, I think I was 17 got here. And ultimately it was given the opportunity to learn how to shape for a company by the name of, and Google Hawaii became a production shape or for 10 plus years. And went on my own started the repair shop first gov thinkings, and then branched out into building Outrigger canoes, which is really a hollow object. It's not really a custom styrofoam shaped For a built from the inside out, but more from the outside in and that morphed into sup boards first hollow, and then later on styrofoam court that morphed into hydrofoil boards and wing foil boards.

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, which I produce right here in my home office, in the garage. On this show I interview Wingfoil athletes, instructors, designers, and thought leaders and ask in-depth questions about Wing Foil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, how they got into watersports, what inspires them, and how they live their best life. I'm a visual learner myself, so I'm adding visual content that you can watch right here on YouTube, but you can also listen to these long form interviews on the go as a podcast, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app for the audio only podcast. These interviews are really long and unrushed, I just take my time and I really don't make them for the 50% of you that stop watching after 30 seconds. These videos are made for those 5% of you that watch all the way to the end. So I appreciate you guys, this show is just for you, if you are as foil brained I am, kick back, relax, and just enjoy the show. Today's guest is Gunnar Biniasch who lives in Fuerteventura on the Canary islands, which are part of Spain, even though they're off the coast of Africa.  He's been creating YouTube videos for many years. He teaches wing foiling and runs the North Shore surf shop in Fuerteventura.  We talk about is very international background, go over Wingfoiling tips for beginners, switching your stance on the foil. And I also asked them to break down the upwind three 360 spin or Flacka for me since I've been struggling to pull it off. The tips he gave in this interview really helped me personally. And I finally pulled off the move after talking to Gunnar. So, I hope you get as much out of it as I did. We also talk in depth about foils boards, wings and living a good life. So without further ado, please welcome Gunnar Biniasch.   Gunnar, welcome to the Blue Planet show. It's great to have you. I really appreciate you coming on. How are you doing today? I'm great. Thanks for having me on yeah, I'm actually pretty happy. Cause a lot of wind in the last few weeks a lot of time on the water, so I'm happy as can be, great. Yeah, I've seen some of your videos. Great. So let's start a little bit with your background. Where did you grow up and how did you get into water, sports and so on and how did you get to live in the Canary islands? That's long story. My background is a pretty complicated. My, my father's German and my mom's Malaysian Chinese I am. Unfortunately, I'm born in Iran, which always causes a slight issues with traveling around specialty to the U S and then I actually grew up most of my life in Indonesia. Wait. So you were born in Iran and wait, your parents are what are they, where are they from your parents? Again? My dad's German and my mom's Chinese/ Malay. That is so interesting. Okay. And then you grew up in Indonesia, most of your childhood. Okay. Sorry. Keep going. That's very interesting. Yeah. We moved there when I was like six years old and pretty much left when I was 18 to go study in the UK. And then wait, let's go back again. So how did your parents meet and how did you get born in Iran and how were you in Indonesia? How did you grow up and so on? I want to know more about all that. My, my dad met my mom in Malaysia. I think it called a loan for it. He was there for work. He was a, he was an auditor. So yeah, they met there had a bit of a long distance relationship for a little while. And then eventually got married and yeah, nine 1978. My dad got a job where he was sent by his company to Tehran. To to basically do the books there for the company. And that's where I was born. I think it was like a couple of months before the revolution there. So like after that we, my parents like were in Germany for about a year and then we moved to Taiwan for a couple of years. And then, yeah, when I was six, we moved to two. And where did you live in Indonesia? In Jakarta. Oh, okay. That's a big city. So you have a very international background, very international upbringing. Okay. That's why I'm German. I sound American and studied in the UK. It's yeah, you don't have much of a British accent okay. So you, when you were 18, you went to the UK and. Went to university there, or school or whatever. I went to university, I went there to study computer science and then also accounting later on. And while I was there I got, I started kite flying kites when I was like 10 years old when I was a kid, like my cousin got me into that. And then I took it a bit more seriously. Once I moved to the UK and got into power, cutting, like kind of buggy and of buggy racing. And through that, I stumbled upon kite surfing in like 99. And yeah, and then this was, I started kite surfing lost my parents that all went wrong from there. Cause that's when I, I started basically taking, thinking very seriously, started getting first sponsors and then also then moved in 2000. I moved down to Florida Ventura. To basically get more time on the water all year round. Yeah, I really haven't looked back since then. The law and career in guiding and now it's winging now. And how old are you now? I'm 43. Okay. And you're married, you have kids or? Yeah. And I've been together with Doris for almost 16 years now. We have one daughter she's eight. And you met her Doris in four different to her and or in the canaries, or did you move there? They met in Germany and we had almost five years of a long distance relationship. And then she eventually decided to move down. I think that was in 2009, I think 2009, 2010. And then how did you get into foiling? Yeah, I mean that, I, first time I got encountered foiling was 2005. A friend of mine got ahold of an aluminum foil thing, an old rush ramble job. And I tried learning all that and that didn't work very well. That was a horrible experience. It was really windy, really wavy, cold, and so on weather in Holland. Yeah, it didn't work quite well. So snowboard boots and water, it's just, yeah, it wasn't the best. And it we forgot about it for about five years and actually in 2009 at one of the races, or I just started with 2010 and one of the races I met a guy called mango and he had a bunch of Fort Hill files with him and they were it's called fiberglass, carbon jobs. And yeah, go on that. And then me and a friend ordered one here for the Ventura and we got riding on that and then pretty much got addicted very quickly. Also, basically both of us were very engineering based and we love building stuff. So we eventually went, wait, we gotta make this better. Also because that I want to travel with this, so we needed to have a foil where I could take the mask off the glider. So basically get rid of that whole bar system. So we quickly started developing our own foil stuff and I was on, yeah. 2010. In the early days of foiling, when I got into, you already had a lot of videos up on a lot of the foils breaking down the different foils and like your tech talks and stuff like that. So that was super helpful for me to understand how it works. And I guess you were already foiling before, like Kyla and he posted his downwind foiling video and all that, or, yeah, for me, I was trying, for me, it was good that he did it and all the work that that Alex did. And so on Alexa guara. Cause I was trying the same stuff just with the wrong equipment because when I basically also, my history has basically eraser, I've been kiteboard racing since the beginning, since 2005, doing the slalom kind of slalom and then the whole racing tour. So for me it was all I was going fast. So the foils that I was designing in the early days. Yeah, no, it was all the same. Basically all the foils that I was making were more for, going faster and, racing orientated. So when I started basically surf, foiling and winging falling, I was doing this on super fast, super small foils, which yeah, wasn't really great. There are a lot harder to ride when we first started foiling. Jeff and I, Jeff, my friend, Jeff Chang had a kite foil. That was, yeah, like high-speed super thin, super small. And we're in LA super long mast. And we were trying to learn behind the jet ski and it was like it was hard. I was like, Oh my God, I'm never going to learn this. So actually now when I look back, I'm amazed that I was actually able to learn half these maneuvers on the equipment that we have. We're on foils a room. They're like a quarter of the size of what we ride now for kites. I think the foil nut that video is a, an in square centimeters. It's something like 400 square centimeters. It's like nothing you're right now. So yeah, it was not one, not the easiest. So when the surf boiling came around and wherever I was trying to get it to work in the waves was convinced. It has to work. You have to paddle into a wave with a standup paddle with with one of these foils. It w it just was, it worked, but it was so fast. It's so unstable that, it wasn't fun. And it was, for me, it was great. Then seeing Kai on basically a big fat gold foil back then the stuff from Alex. And I was like, Oh yeah, Yep. That's the way go really big and go a lot slower and that'll make it all work on the waves for surfing and for some of the paddling. Yeah. And then what was the first kind of more, that kind of a foil, more surf oriented foil that you got and how did you get into that? Yeah, the first thing I did, as soon as I saw that video was basically call Alex and order like to go foils the re the original Kai wings. So they learned on to the Chi wing and now that's considered a small wing for someone, my size. It's almost kind of foils are those sides now. So yeah, that's the first one I had and then started on huge boards compared to what we use now. Back then I was on a hundred and back to my very first board, I started Sort of foiling on was I think 160 liter, like nine, nine, six stand-up or at CDF, some footage of that on their YouTube channel, beyond the channel. If you scroll up, like somewhere in the middle of those should go probably to video under videos. Cause there's just so many videos on . Okay. I see the high foil. Let's have a look into this one. Okay. So yeah. So talk about the early days of foiling with the Chi foil  was great. For me it opened up like a lot like of options, but when we were trying to surf well with the kite foil was the only time it would work, if you had almost overhead ways, we were on such a small foil. And obviously that was extremely scary. Like you're in this video, you got nice and let's say small and controlled waves, just a little bit of a bump that makes it fun to surf foil when it's about twice the size of that and the foils. Four or five times the speed. Yeah, it was scary. Plus the foils were a lot shorter. The kite foils. Yeah. It's very similar to how I started. I put a Kai foil on an eight foot standard paddle board and figured out how to make it go. Yeah. I've been foiling for, I think for seven years by that time. So for me, it was just about actually relearning standup paddling because I had actually started standup having back in 2005, one of the first guys on the Island. And I just got bored of it, like in a rich split with a kid because I had also a lot to do with the racing. So I didn't really have a lot of time to go stand up paddling so much. So I'd actually, before I started properly trying to make the whole software, the working and a stand up. And while I'm not counting, Flatwater paddling, but actually in waves, I just, it gets really full here. So it was just, that's something I've really progressed on as I should have. So with the foiling came along, it allowed me to go in spots where no one else was. So I met, I was allowed to progress a lot faster with with the soft foiling compared to with the normal stand-up paddling. Cause there's the, for example, in that video is actually just the offshoot of of the main sort of way spot in town. Then on a day like that, if you basically go across to the actual main wave, there's 50, 60 guys in the lineup waiting to catch a wave. So it's not that fun. So foiling made that a lot easier and a lot more fun in general, just to be out there, crash on the rocks. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, that's, and that's exactly how I started. And it was a pretty, pretty long learning curve, but super fun that, sorry, I got addicted to foiling it. But like with the advent of wing foiling, I tell people it's probably easier to learn foiling with a wing than foiling in ways. What do you think? Is that what you definitely. I'm on the teaching side learning to foil. Immediately in, in waves is probably the worst possible thing you can do. There's so many variables everything's out of control. You have to catch the wave, you have to control your speed, then you have to control the foil. And then if you wipe it about wrong, you're very likely to get pounded by your board or hit by the foil. Before winging, obviously when we had people who couldn't type or couldn't wind surf, we would teach them behind the boat, towing them, basically getting them to a halfway decent level of control with the foil before going anywhere near the waves with these guys. And now with winging, it's a lot easier. Cause now we've got a very controlled way of getting people on the water, basically sailing around and especially compared to kiting where the general issue is when people are not doing well, they tend to end up. Just like in the old days of, when you start to learn normal guiding way off, down wind, then you'd have to go and rescue them. Whereas with winging, you can send people out. And if you taught them how to basically displace up wind, it's just like a good old beginner windsurfing with a daggerboard. You can just, basically, even if you're not flying, you can keep up wind. You can learn slowly and just slowly progress your way onto the foil and get flying and then take it at your speed. Whereas most other foiling sports you have to get up and flying immediately, or else you end up somewhere else or it just doesn't work or it's no fun. Yeah. I was going to mention that too. Like when you in the early days of wing for the, you, I guess you worked together with ozone to come out with these instructional videos, Yeah. And like this one here got to over 250,000 views, so are very popular instructional videos. And I think they were very helpful for a lot of people to get into sport. And also I've been sending people to your videos for learning how to do it on a regular standup paddle board or, so can you talk a little bit about that learning first for, some tips for beginners? If somebody wants to get into Wayne for them, what's the best way to learn it, the most important part. And this is something a lot of people skip is to really learn how to control the wing properly. A lot of people go onto the water a little bit too quickly to just get away in their hand and you just go and they don't tend to learn how the handling works proper base. So it makes life a lot harder. If you can. Try to get out on a skateboard on land. It will teach you a lot about the dynamics of how the wings work and handle placement, which handles to use to go up when, especially for wind surfers, it's slightly counterintuitive, especially if you're here, like you're going on an SUV without a foil or any daggerboards in it. You have to be very careful what you're doing with the wing. Windsurfers tend to, for example, always just, open up the wing, shove it back and then hope it will all go up wind, which doesn't quite work. You have to combine it with the kite mentality of, okay, I've got the board pointing up within now. Not actually have to move the wing forward again. Position it so that the wind can actually still also pull up with once the board's done that and actually skateboarding with the wing will teach you quite a lot of those skills before you get on the water. And it's also quite useful for a standing up and Swan. If you just have that wing nicely under control, and you're no longer dipping your wing tips into the water. Because for me, that was the most frustrating thing in the beginning. On wing was knowing I could foil and knowing I could stand up paddle, but basically crashing every 20 meters because I dig the wing tips of the way of the wing into the water, just catapulting straight over. And that's because basically when I started winging I did the mistake of just saying I'm going to go straight on the water and I'm going to be able to do this. And yeah, it wasn't like that. It didn't, it wasn't like a long arduous thing, but for the first half an hour, I just spent a lot of time basically catapulting over the board because when the wing tip drags is for people to try to lift up their backhand to get it out. And then what happens? Is it just tips forward and makes it worse? So it's like almost you have to lift it up the front hand and pushed down with the backhand to get it, to come back. Learning essentially that, that counter intuitive thing is that if you want to make it go up, you actually have to push down and your backhand and things like that. And like I said, if you spend a bit more time on land, you'll learn that. And then you'll have a lot less of a hard time on the water, for sure. And like I said, in a really important skill to have is essentially to, when you're not flying is actually still be able to go up when I'm on the board. So I have a lot of people actually still now guys that have been doing it for a year are still, if the wind drops even on a hundred plus leader board, these guys are ending up miles downwind. Because they just haven't figured out how to actually just sit on, basically sit on the board or stand if it's a big board and just keep the wing open holder the slightly a bit more forward and that you can still sail up wind in five or six knots. Yeah, without too much. And I agree in the last interview, Glenn L said she was mentioning this kind of position here where you hold the wing a little bit sideways and that turns the nose into the wind. And then, so if you can keep that position where you have the wing a little bit to your side, that's that's a good point, or I think too, to keep your nose kind of pointing a little bit into the wind instead of just letting it pull you down when right. Exactly. And the second part is to actually get rid of that downward pull anyway. So basically hold it a bit farther forward. This video, the wind is light, but if the wind is stronger I tell most of my guys to hold it more for it's actually grabbed the surf handle and maybe the second handle on the strut to really keep it open. And it helps get much like nicer angles. You're not going to be going fast, but you're going to keep a nice upwind angle. So trying to basically displace with the least amount of power and not just shut the wing and try to get power to make it go up. Wind. So let's talk a little bit about, more about tips for beginners, because I know a lot of people that are watching are just getting into it too and just need help getting get, figuring it all out. What, let's start with the equipment. What do you recommend, if I dunno, do you teach other people how to, when foil it all and what would you, what kind of gear would you put them on to get started? Like I said, the first, when I do my courses, the first hour is typically somewhere in a car park or we have a nice hard area behind the beach, just about half an hour, just controlling the wing, like a three or four meter wing learning the basics of control and handling, yeah. It's just standing on the beach or something, no skateboard or anything. Yeah, exactly. And then after that, Get them on a skateboard. We've got these really large longboard skateboards, like dancers. So basically meter long and with really fat skate wheels, it's like all-terrain wheels and yeah. And then we send them off because of these large wheels, they don't get super fast, but they get moving, which gives them a bit of a parent when, and it gives them a good idea of what, how what's happening. And there, I progressed on to teaching them essentially. Okay. If you hold the wing slightly further forward on the handles is what happens when you hold it farther back. You also tend to teach basically what happens if you move the wing forward, actively, what happens when you shift it back? Hold it higher. And so on which handles do what? And yeah, so usually at the end of an hour and a half, most people on the skateboards are actually doing their first jibes. Some are doing their first tacks and around there, they're getting a real good handling for the wing, basically being able to turn around and that's when we go onto the water. And if I have guys who have had some foiling experience beforehand, we will typically then go straight on to a board, was a foil, something like around a hundred, 110 liters, depending on the person's weight and large foil, because pretty much sure that once they take off, they will be more or less be able to handle the foil flying. If they've got more than a year's worth of foiling experience, if they don't have any funneling experience I'll put them nowadays on an inflatable board with two side fins and send them out of that in flat water and basically get used to getting them used to standing on a board. A lot of the guys would. Having folded that also have typically no water sports experience or not a lot of it. So getting them some balance on a stand-up paddle is is essential. What do you mean by two fins? Is it like, are they like center fins daggerboard thins or more like just regular fins in the back of the board? They are about halfway up the board closer to the rails and they're like eight inch like sort of FCS. So that helps with, so you don't drift off, right? That's one of the issues like if people are using the regular stand-up paddleboard to learn is that there's a lot of drifting going on. And it's hard to stay up wind with a boy that only has fins on the tail of very. Exactly. And what's this type of board it's super easy to stay up when you get actually quite decent speed on those things. And also because they're quite large, it's very good entry for most people into a water sport in general. So they're learning what the wind is doing on the water and how the board's reacting. They develop a good sense of balance. And then typically once they're okay with that board, that's when we move them on to the foil. And they're again, very large foils in the beginning, around the four liter volume from the front wing. And then yeah, get them to go on that board. Same thing, teach them with a foil board, how to go up, wind, how to build speed. And then once they have that speed, teach them essentially how to put the board back down again, once it lifts off. So basically just, keeping your way forward using your knees to position your body farther forward by bending your front knee and put the board back down and well, basic foil teaching opened the wing and stop flying. And typically, the worst students I've had, they've still learned the foil within two weeks after doing a course, cause at the end of the course, because they can go up wind even without foiling. They're basically independent. So they're confident enough just to go off with their equipment and learn to fly by themselves because they know they can always just sail back without the foil. Yeah. And that's something I tell people too they spend like thousands of dollars on buying all the equipment, but then they're too cheap to take a lesson, so just by taking some, getting some professional instruction, it'll just make everything so much easier and quicker to learn. I learned it pretty much by trial and error, but it took me way longer than it would have if I had gotten a few good tips the way. Yeah, exactly. But each to their own and the coolest thing, or let's say for schools, that's a bad thing about winging is that it's a fairly safe sport to teach yourself compared to cutting or wind surfing. The wing is relatively soft. You're not going to smack your head in like with steering, with the master, the boom. And Yeah. They're not going to fly away like you can with the kite. It lends itself for people to, just take their time and go out by themselves. Obviously you learn a lot faster, like in any sport, if you've asked somebody knows what they're doing and can basically see your errors and correct you and get rid of the first bad habits and right at the beginning. But I find it's not as necessary with this sport. Yeah. Most of the people learning it are relatively coordinated, but I've also had people start from zero and they've learned fairly quickly. People have never done any water sports before, and they're still learning quite quickly because it just gives you confidence because you're not scared of the equipment as much as you are with a lot of the other sports. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's definitely I think Wayne filing is probably the easiest way to get into foiling. As I think anyways, do you agree with that? That's probably if somebody wants to learn how to foil, it just gives you so much time, maybe other than towing behind the boat with a professional instructor that might be or in the electric foil maybe, but to really get a lot of time on the foil wing filings is such a good way to do it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, for, I wouldn't say it's like the, as that, if you're a teacher yourself and you're going to give yourself as much time as possible, it's definitely the easiest way to learn how to foil. Obviously both and the teacher is going to be the fastest way always cause it's a very controlled environment, but that always involves having the coach there and, having the boat for that. And then winging is the next best thing, because once you learn how to control the wing and like I said, stay up wind. You can teach yourself. The foiling, it's not that important compared to the wing skills. Cool. Let's fast forward a little bit to now you're writing obviously a much smaller board and you're on different equipment and I'm pretty impressed that you still it looks like you, you pretty much always switch your stance going either, either way, right? Yeah. That's ingrained in me from kite foiling and from kindful racing. Yeah. Obviously everybody's going to end up that way anyway. I always find it a bit of an excuse from people with, they tell me, it's no, I need that center strap. That asymmetrical center strap. I don't need the jive. It was like, eh, Give herself a year you'll figure it out a jive and then you'll either go strapless or you're old. You'll get like a view strap and, go into the more wind surfing side where you just have the advantage of having basically riding your switch and your strong side. Wow. And so that's something I'm struggling with is switching Stantec. I can do it on a bigger board with the big foil, but when I get on my small board, like small board with straps and the smaller foil and the waves and stuff I don't even attempt to, I don't even think about switching my stance. I just always stay in the same position. So maybe can you give some pointers on how to switch your stance? How the learning process looking basically rewind a little bit. Cause when I was basically wave riding, like surfing or kiting or standing up, I think I would never basically go on my switch side. Yeah, video this video. No, actually I don't never have gone around, but essentially you get into this mentality in the sports ah, I can only ride regular and I'm going to ride which from the left and the right back side and I'm going to, I'm going to right front side was weird from the right, but actually when Franklin came around, it wasn't comfortable in a lot of sort of way spots when I was kite wave foiling. And then I forced myself to, to ride the waves on my switch side. Coming from the racing background, I was able to ride the foil, switch or regular cars. You have to, you're not going to win a race if you're going to go side up the course. So for me, it was just basically just crunching down and saying, look, this next two, three sessions, you're only gonna ride on your weak side. You're going to ride the waves, basically left foot back, and you're just gonna do it. You're gonna crash a lot, but you're just gonna force yourself to do it because it can't be that hard. And because foiling doesn't involve a lot of strength and having to push really hard on it, black foot it's actually pretty easy to learn decent control on your switch side. So for me, it was R was already doing that with the  and the waves. And so when I started winging, it was normal. It's easier for me to actually ride front side, no matter where the wind's coming from. Okay. It's actually not, like I said, it's not a hard skill to learn. It's just something you have to force yourself to do, because everybody's got a, like a strong and weak side, but you can overcome that fairly easily on the foils. I think this one shows you switching stance quite a bit. So talk about that a little bit. Yeah. It's talking about just basic switching your feet. You'll see it now. It's most important part is that pump. I keep meaning to make a video on this and just keep having time for it. But when I. And when they almost never see any of the new guys talk about, is that initial pump, before you go into any maneuver, either a jive or attack or almost anything where you want to switch your feet. So walk us through it. So here at this point, you do a little pump with the boiler, with the wing, bam, I pump it, you see those popping up. That's my sort of pump and what that sort of does it accelerates the board, which gives more stability. But as I move my body weight forward to switch my foot that board is also trying to rise with me so it can take my body weight as I move my back foot forward. So I pumped, I stepped forward. Did I see the yeah. Moving your whole weight, body weight forward into those straps and those board positions and you quickly switch your feet. Nice. Yeah. And the most important part of that essentially is that pump. And when I'm coaching people mainly for foiling and so on know a little bit more for winging for their jobs is I tell them to do three pumps. And on the third one, switch your foot. You get into it just to basically count one pump to pump on the third one. That's when you basically stepped forward to switch. But basically before you attempt to do it on up on foil, obviously you want to practice it with a touchdown jive. Like you short earlier with the, on the kite foil, right? Like touchdown on the water, then switch your feet and then come back up again. I would tend to tell people just to go for it in the beginning, because if you get it wrong, you will touch down and then just don't panic. When you were touchdown. Most boards are good enough now that when you touched down, they don't stop so much. They'll keep going. So if you go for like your normal air jive, and if you do it correctly, if you move your weight forward, what a lot of people do in the beginning, which is slightly wrong is that they try to pull their front foot back as they're switching their feet. They tried this jump jump switch, which is actually really hard and actually most decent boilers don't do that. What most people do is actually you're basically, yeah, I brought my back foot forward. I brought my entire body weight over the front straps and I'm standing straight. So the worst thing can happen there. Essentially, if you take too long, you will touch them. Yup. The board one fly away, nothing will happen. You'll just touch down and then you can just switch your feet on the water. After that, So I would just say go for it. And as long as you keep your body weight forward nothing much can go wrong. Yeah. Because obviously if you put your way too far back then the foil comes out of the, the foil would just shoot up. Cause you have to be able to, that's typically why most people fail on a foiling, jive or an attack. They sh they shift their weight back because they've moved their foot back and then that board shoots away. It unbalances the board. But if you basically stepped forward or in front of the board, the foil is trying to lift anyway. So if you're over it yeah, I said, the worst that can happen with is happened as you touched down, it's a fairly safe way of doing it okay. You messed up, you've touched down, switch your foot and then keep going. Yeah. Whereas typically if you screw it up the other way, if you step backwards and you screwed up the oil flies up into your lines or flies in front of you and when you're winging. So yeah, so switching your foot is not actually not that hard to skill, as long as you as a few key things that you really need to do it. And it gets easy. The biggest thing, which people, when I explain it to them, they're like, Oh my God, why didn't I think of that is that you step forward, it's always stepping forward and not stepping back. Once you stop yourself from trying to slide your foot back and then slide your front foot forward at the same time, you just stepped forward. And not both your feet on the front of the board, it actually gets pretty easy. Okay. I'll have to practice it some more and it helps if you do it with a big board or longer board. Cause it's if you touched down, you're more, you're less likely to get stuck. Yeah, for sure. And you don't have to be as accurate with your foot placement and so on too, when you're on a bigger board and the bigger foil to a bigger stable foil helps a lot. Yeah. Like I, yeah, cause I can do it on a bigger board and the bigger foil, but not on my small board on my, yeah. I mean on small foils is actually, this is where balls come in because you have to do it fast. If you go in, if you actually go into your jive at full speed on a small foil, it'll just, it'll be just as stable as your big fo plus it'll be easier because you can actually correct the small foil better and it has less drag. So you get, you could keep up your speed easier too. Exactly. So the initial thing is that you just, you don't pussy out and you just go straight into that jive at good speed. And then it's fine. Oh, and another good tip is to jive into the wave because that will give you speed. Yeah. So especially what I do, if I'm out in six, seven nos yeah, the biggest screw up you can possibly do in those wins is the touchdown. So what I'll typically look for is a nice, like bump or a wave, and I'll jive on that and use that speed I can get from that wave to complete the drive. If I know I'm on a smaller phone, it's just really not enough wind to get going again. Cause a lot of times, if you jive in between the waves, then there's like you lose all your power that you get back winded and then you drop off the foil, right? Yeah. So basically just go straight into that face and it'll actually be a lot easier than if you did it in the flats. Cool. So let's talk a little bit about. How you ended up in Fuerteventura, I guess you were studying like computers, computer science or engineering type of stuff. So what, yeah. What made you decide to give up a career in that and and be a beach bum in Ventura? I learned to cut surf. That was the biggest problem. As soon as I learned to kitesurf, it was like it combined everything. I like, like speed and water, and being able to jump on land without killing myself. If you look at power cutting back then, and the pre two thousands, it was extremely dangerous. We were up, six, seven meter, foil kites jumping on land. And a lot of my friends got seriously injured. And so on. So for us, like water was like, Oh, great. Yeah, we can jump and if we screw up, it doesn't kill us and it doesn't hurt. So I got really addicted to kite surfing really fast. And then what's started as essentially my winter job here in Fordham, Ventura working for the flag beach center. Eventually the year later it was like, I'm just going to stay here. It's nice and warm. We've got good ways. And it's basically still Europe. Yeah. And I can kind here every day. And so how do you, so yeah, obviously you're just living the dream, this decided, okay, screw, screw that. And I'm going to live in a beautiful place. I'm very similar to you in that regards, but yeah. So how did you make it work? How did he make, how do you make a living? How can you make it all work? In the beginning, like I said, I was working for the flag beach center was like the main kind instructor there for a good number of years. And. Around it was, I started competing in 2000, like seriously, in 2003, I already had done some competitions in the UK, like 2002. And then in 2003, I started competing in the first peak DRA events. And then I think the German championships, I actually met some guys from Peter did kiteboarding like that. They were the first guys to offer me a proper deal as a rider. And so pretty much a year later I quit my job at flight beaches and instructor, and basically turned sort of full-time pro back then. And luckily within the designers, probably one of my best friends still he basically took me under his wing also. And, I was giving him the feedback on his kites, but he was also teaching me how to cue and these kites, how they're made. He pretty much taught me everything about the backend of the industry, supply chains, how cards are actually made, how serve plan works, everything the prepared me for what I do know. So yeah, so I was with Peter Lynn until 2009 writing for them and also helping them in the development for quite some time. And then, and in 2010 I decided to join . Initially that started up the fact that I just, I was sick of losing races to those guys with 19 meter kites. I was just basically wanted to see, plus I'm the boss army. And it was basically from the same home, Ty Tom design, and Germany's from Frankfurt. So we got along quite well. And then yeah, I was racing for them and I was team manager for them until 2013. And then yeah, I decided to say follow the money. And I went and did a year with gastro, which was not the most successful year. So also the time where everyone finally believed, Oh, great photo cards we'll win races. And I actually went to a tube cried brand, which was probably not the greatest idea. But after that I pretty much went to ozone after that pretty good five, six years with those guys. So it's a very interesting company to work with. But by the time I joined ozone, I had already opened my own kite shop basically here on the Island. Yeah. And also we, I had my own sort of foiled brand sort of the magma foils, which we tried to get working back then, which is a bit difficult from the islands here. And we had a bit of a bad luck when the production but also like in 2016, I started doing a bit of freelance design for foils, for for brands. So yeah, and now the way I earn my living is I have my shop. I actually took go over last year. I took over the North shore surf shop here. On the Island, he used to belong to probably the most famous German wind surfer around  his old Shaw. Oh yeah. So yeah, I been doing that, but besides that I've been basically freelance designing boards. Most of them you've probably seen from Indiana and I'm doing a lot of basically testing work for a lot of brands where their wings and their foibles. So some I can talk about some I can or NDAs, but and then also last year I decided to work with the guys from North, basically as a team rider on an R and D writer also. Cool. So pretty pretty interesting background there. So how many languages do you speak? Three and a half. Okay. English, German Spanish Indonesian sort of hangs on, but just don't practice it enough. So if you go there, you could probably speak home properly. Do you have any cool stuff? I see so many interesting toys behind you and your man-cave slip, but anything you can these are just some other flaws. All right. I typically tend to switch foils every day, but the one cool thing I have here is a mass from a guy called Kyle in the us, which basically when I'm testing allows me to not have a different mask for every foil company I ride. So basically it's a custom carbon mask and you can basically put different adapters on here. For example, this is the Moses adapter. And then if I want to ride a Northwell with it I just put a North adapter on it and if I want to write an Indiana foil, I put in Indiana doctor, I want, wanted to write an access book for the nexus adapter. So when I'm testing them and trying to figure stuff out, I basically removed the mask. This is the variable, ah, interesting. All foils, right differently, depending on their masks. Cause you've got so many different mask designs and I also like it cause it's a lot lighter than almost all the other carbon masks I have. Huh. Interesting. Quite like it, maybe send me that link and I'll put it in the description down below. If anyone's interested in getting a custom mass email or they sent me a proper, like he's got a new sort of stronger mask now for waiting you between too much freestyle and freestyle is never good for foils or for the boards when you land badly. So nicely, like stronger reinforced plate and so on. So for for the North kites, I'm not really familiar. North foils, the, what do you use for winging? What's your most, your favorite foil that you're using right now for foil? Okay. It depends if I'm either in the waves or if I'm freestyling, I have two favorites. This is the one where people are gonna freak out at me. So basically my favorite big wave foil is this low aspect, little aspect, super old school. But the coolest thing about the North one is the fuselage is only 60 centimeters. So it's short, right? And this thing's not slow. So it's actually, this is a 1500, but this works in everything. I've had this in super horrible trivial and really currently big waves. And I survived a lot better than I have with the high aspect wings of this. And I actually have a lot of fun. I have less, I ride this most of the time. If the waves are actually really good, cause it just really works. And I know it's completely contrary to where everyone else is going at the moment and it's designed as a beginner wing, but for waves. Yep. How well it works. There's definitely a lot of merit to having a lower aspects foils for I guess just control and like you said, like going through whitewater, certain things that they just don't drop off as easily, too. They're easier to, it's just a lot less scary when you've got basically an overhead wave breaking behind you and just, yeah, you hit a bit of turbulence and I don't care. Whereas with the high aspect, when you're like, Oh, I'm wobbling you to, so what am I freestyling? So for freestyling, my main way, I'm using it at the moment. It's actually two different ones for like lighter winds. I use the North, the  it's basically it's called the high aspect lane. But how much can you show the curve of the foil? It's your typical sort of downward going. Oh, as a little bit up turn on the tips, huh? Yeah. Sort of twist. Yeah. But works really good. I tend to ride this on the long fuselage. Actually, this is the 700, the 70 centimeter fuselage. I quite like it for freestyle because it just got a bit more acceleration and pop and pumps out of like the jumps a bit better. So if you landed slightly wrong and you still get up and pump it out with the performance, it has quite a bit, and it works really nice and normal wave conditions. You've got nice and clean conditions. But I tend to, I don't know if he said already, but how many square centimeters is the surface? Normal surface area. It's 1250 and it's projected 1230. Okay, cool. It's actually pull up the screen sharing again, is that the one you're using and And the most recent way video. Yeah. Part of it sometime in that video. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's the one I'm using. Yes. So yeah, I actually wanted to ask you this is the move I've been trying to pull off and struggling with the last names they keep. I don't know what, like the wing, I can't get the wing right on the landing. So can you kinda maybe walk us through this move? Step-by-step the Flocker or the upwind three 60, again the most important crux of this move initially is that you keep the wing low off the one side and really opened. A lot of people, tried to bring up the wing over their head way too early, and that's, what's involves you then turning it into a push loop and then crashing. And the other part is just after takeoff. What you really need to do is like when you you kick up, you need to twist the board first. You're trying to one 80 the board first, and then you look over your shoulder and the board will follow. If you try to rotate your body without twisting the board first, it's a, it doesn't allow you to rotate around far enough. Yeah. This right here, like right before you jump, you go down with the nose. And I think that's what a lot of people miss when they're trying to jump is like doing a little downward push. And then you really want to pop that for up at a steep angle, upwards, right? To get some air. That's foil jumping one Oh one. That's this, regardless if it's wind foiling, wing, foiling, or kind foiling any foil jump, you got to use the foil as a ramp. So you need to, if you want a nice big jump, you have to use a big ramp, which means get that nose low to the water. And then pointed up that's what's going to get you launched. If you if you don't do that, you'll just get into a flat it'll jump. It's if you've taken off a small piece of chocolate as compared to hitting like a two meter round so that's just your normal jumping. You should do that. Any foil jump you do is try to get as low as possible and then try to point out as aggressively as you can. The second part of the flux essentially is that twists is everything over it's like when you're up in the air, you need to basically flip the board over. You want to point that nose down so that you've done half the rotation already so that when you let your, the rest of your body follow that that rotation, that sort of the board is already around. So if you don't go around far enough, you tend to land off center. So here, the nose is up and then see, I've twisted the nose around before the rest of my body's come around. I've already gone 180 degrees with the board. And then as the board touches down, I've already gone, three quarters at least of the way around with the board. And the next sort of important part is that, again, as you're in the air, as you're rotating, you need to keep that wing stable off to the side. You don't try to lift it up. When you see people learning. The first mistake they do is they try to get jumped and then they lift up the wing over their head as they're trying to spin. And that actually does two things. It stops your rotation and also the wing will then try to lead that rotation. Which is a new trick in itself. If you're high enough, it'll turn into a push loop. It's it's like a kite loop with the weight. But that's not something you want to do when you're learning. This was scary. Yeah. And you don't like too that you don't want to jump too high to do it. Yeah. Actually height will help you, but it's important that you, if you keep that wing off to the side, so you could keep the wing more or less hot head level. Yeah. As you go around, you'll laugh and then you can just basically rotate the wing over it over your head. Once you've landed. If you try to rotate the wing over your head, when you're in the air, that's when it will slam you because the wing will go behind you and then dive straight down. And that's the most scary part. It, I broke three different carbon maps before I learned that. Because I'd just be landing like super hard, because I basically lead with the wing and turn it into a Porsche loop and then slammed the foil sideways onto the water. It looks easy here, but there's a few things, like I said, the most important part. If you keep your wing low, there did this slightly wrong. You saw that wind just hit that water quite hard. Yeah. The only ones I've pulled off where actually, where I hit the water, it seems to seem to help me. When I was able to pull them off, it gives you a bit of balance, but it's just, it means that you've raised up your hands before you rotated. Yeah. And in the end, it's not good for your foil or for your wing when you constantly whack it. Cause here you hit it almost like flat onto the water here. I just, I had it rotated too early. Like I tried to bring the wing around too early. See there's over my head instead of lower to the side. And that's what basically causes it to go into that loop. Interesting. And yeah, so the way to prevent it from going to loops you keep it off to the side and you really, you keep your back hand low, you try to push actually that back handled down as you're trying to bring that around that again is remember, like when you push down on that back handle, it causes the wing to go up. Okay. The reason that typically tends to drop down is because you've also then lifted your hand up as you've tried to bring it around. You probably see it there that I actually, as a, went around my, my, my backhand Rose up on that crash basically to watch my back hand. And now it's going to go up, you see how it's up and over. So you catch the wind basically the wrong way or exactly. So what remember, like when you're just controlling the wing on the beach, if you want the, the tip to come up, you push down and if you raise your bad count, the wind goes down. It's the same thing that applies here. So if you forget to keep your hand low and basically push that backhand away from you in that trick. And so she, my backend should extend out and it's hard to see behind. You can see they're pushing it down hard and then it just comes around. All right. Cool. Thanks for the tips. So good. Good move. I see a lot of guys, but I dunno, like I was watching balls. Mueller was probably the first to do that. Yeah. I like watching his videos too. I spent too much time on this one because I actually unlearned some of the other cooler stuff. Cause it's actually, this is a fairly safe one because you don't tend to hit the board when you screw it up. Whereas actually the first rotation I learned, which is don't have any videos of, and I'm actually at the moment gotten scared of doing it is basically the backside rotation to that. So basically jump up and you rotate the other way. Yeah. That's the hamstring killer. It's if you screw it up, you hit the rail of the board. Oh, all the time. And yeah. And what we've been doing too many of these blockers and like now I've gotten scared of doing the other one. So my, my goal for the next month, essentially just relearn all the backside tricks now. Cause they're actually harder. Yeah. Then in terms of the board you're using, do you have that in your man-cave as well? No, I'm the boss of the problem is I've had a bit of a nightmare last week. I've been trashed three boards, so they're all in repair. Yeah, rocks. The downside of when you ride without Alicia is that sometimes you forget the are conditions where you should have Alicia. So ended up with boards and the reef. But essentially I, I ride a lot of different boards. It's part of the job anyway, just to test as much as possible and also just trying to figure out what works and doesn't, but I tried to write a smallest possible as soon as the wind goes down, especially for wave riding. A lot of the videos will see me, like on the 33 liter, it's a four, four. Yeah. But then for freestyle, if I'm trying to take it more serious, I'll use actually larger board, like a 60 liter 65 liter board. Cause it's just a lot easier if you land that don't sink down to your waist immediately. What's your body weight. Can you share 87 kilos? So he's seven kilos, 60 liters is what you'd like to use. Okay. So if you could order a new board exactly the way you wanted it, but what dimensions in volume would you get? So if we're talking freestyle yeah, 60, 65 liters something like four, eight, four, seven. I've got the luxury of got guys like Indiana, which were pretty much, let me do whatever I want with my boards. So I basically here's the design make it and they're like, okay, And they'll do it and then we'll release it next year. So I have that luxury. So that's the freestyle board. You probate in that one video where I'm one, that's 65. That's the prototype for next year. So that's my freestyle thing. No gimmicks. No, concaves no cocktails. Just purely designed for performance to get off the water and then for wave riding. Yeah. I'll use anything that's small. At the moment, I'm just basically trying to get the North boards to work and figure out how are we going to improve those this sort of work. And they're very similar to the KT type style boards. You've got the cutouts in the back and the kick tails, which personally not a big fan of on caves on boards. I tend to like a board to not break when it hits the water. I wanted to glance off, which I know was not the most comfortable for the knees, but I just. I like the fact that boards don't try to stick to the water when they touched on after Jones. Just seeing. Yeah. I was talking to the wild about that too. He, and he says, yeah, he likes the boards that have more of a soft, softer bottom, a little bit convex, or just but yeah, when you touched down on the water, they just handled more, they're more neutral than having like hard rails and sharp edges and concaves and things like that. Yeah. I, sharp edges I think, are quite useful for winging cause they prevent this, the side slip of the board. Depends where you put the hard rail, like on my boards, I tend to like to have that transition from the bottom onto the bevel, quite sharp because essentially if you're out in six, seven knots, that sharpness allows you to stop that sideways, drift a bit and still allow you to displace back. Whereas you have a very round shape, which actually lends itself better for freestyle. Cause actually the easiest board you can possibly learn, like the three sixties art is an inflatable cause they bought the fat round nose with basically no sharpness in that reel whatsoever. And those you can get almost completely wrong landings on and you can still slide it around really easily if Congress forgiving. But the bad side of that is in those conditions where you need that board to display soft wind. It's not going to do that with, without some sharpness on the rail. So when you're taking off it, like in light wind, Do you think you're like, that's something I've been wondering. Do you use the speed of the board to get planing and then lift off? Or do you lift off with the foil before you even get up to planning speed? No. The biggest revelation to me was actually, it was the beginning of last year is taking one of my old Kifle race boards and those big 90 liter tankers, 70 centimeters wide. I took that and I took a wind surfing foil and a bottle of that. And then that got going so much better than anything else I had. And down to the fact that those boards is designed for acceleration, because the problem with, if you take like an sup board, sure. They pump up easily on the kick tail. They allow the board to rise up, but as you have no apparent wind. The wings we have are just not as efficient as a kite or windsurfing sail. So you'll pop yourself up and essentially immediately back wind your wing because there's just not enough apparent wind on the wing to work. Whereas if you get a board that can actually pick up speed with very little resistance, by the time you get up on onto the foil, there's enough apparent wind for your wing to actually start engaging in pulling. So like six, seven knots having a board that when you pumped it once would basically lurch forward on the water, like a meter and a half. He did that three times you'd cover like almost a 10 meter distance, and then you'd have almost five knots of apparent wind. And all of a sudden the wing is up and you're going, and you're going with no wind whatsoever. So that's why on my own boards that I prefer. You won't see any concaves or any kick tails or any cutouts or anything. Cause I like the, having that maximum acceleration at the beginning to get the foil and the wing to work together quickly. Do you have a video of that on your channel session? Log number four, a wind falling old race sports. Okay. Okay. So tell us about this board that you're saying planes and really light wins, right? Yeah. I, in like the one I'm on here on this video is an as a team event, this was probably the best, most expensive race board you could buy back in 2012. Is this for kite racing or tide racing before foiling started? And I basically have, I think it's the Moses wind foil set up at the bottom of this here, it's fairly windy when I, first time I tried it, but these boards are designed to actually have a V more of a V-shape in the back. So it slightly convex in that sense and really play and yeah, they have virtually no resistance in the water. So when you pump, they just basically start planning. They just lurch forward, which if you put a foil on the bottom of it is great because they'll get the foil up to it's essentially flying speed very quickly with very little resistance. So that's a good tip. So basically if you want to get going and really light, wind, get a board that, that just planes easily and obviously a little bit longer. Good, good. The is not that long. It's a six foot board for theaters, but Because I remember this is 2019. This was actually pretty small for most people right back then. And I think the standard back then was like people in 120 liter boards when they were starting. But the concept scales down quite nicely. My, my 60 liter board is basically based on the exact same concept. Your maximum volume distribution is right onto your front foot slalom, solemn type rocker lines go broker line. Yeah. And like I said, the most important part is to not have any, anything that drags on the bottom of the hole. It's like probably the worst culprit for Reedy light wind winging is probably the cut-out cut out, works really well on a planing board. Typically over 10 50 knots where it actually starts basically, creating some air bubbles. But for those just displacing speeds that we're at to actually drags quite a bit until you get up to a certain amount of speed. So it just costs more energy to get a board like that. So if you extend your rail along by not having anything cut out of the bag or any sort of kick tail, it basically allows the board to just get onto that sort of acceleration very quickly without a lot of resistance. Yeah. I've noticed too, like when you have a flat tail, it allows you to push off the tail a little bit to lift off, right? Like you get like actually forces the board forward more. Whereas if we have like our standard sub kick tail thing, when you kick the back, the board rolls up right. And pump up on the phone a little bit earlier, it seems like great. Yeah. It does essentially is engage the foil. And then for example, that works okay on like really big files. But especially now that we're on high aspect, foils, actually real high aspect foils where you got fun, not a lot of surface area and quite it'll they'll stall. If they, if you put them at a too high angle of attack, they'll stall out. So it doesn't help you. If your board allows you to get it at this angle and a shove it up in the water, as soon as you can flat things going to go, I don't have enough speed and you drop off again. Whereas a flat tail board, but it does as soon. Yeah. You'd actually over kick the back and it goes forward. The fact that tail is now blocked, it will actually force the board down. So any energy you've put downwards is actually going to be converted energy. Intercise you're pumping you accelerate forward. So all your energy is actually going into forward momentum rather than getting you up. But especially high aspect foils. They like this. So they'll get to speed. They'll engage. And then by the time you rise up, they are at a decent amount of speed to fly. Interesting. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I like that concept. And then you don't think that gift flat tail gets in the way sometimes like just drags in the water. I guess it depends if you're on waves or just, that's not my experience. Yeah. I ride waves with flat back boards. The only thing that sort of does drag, if you don't have a very wide board, but if I take my 60 liter or 70 liter board on it, two waves, I can't carve as hard because I've got almost, yeah. 15 inches of tail and that'll drag 60 liters. So if I try to Carhartt that rail is going to touch, but the back I've typically not touched, it's got to realize if you don't have a kick tail, you don't have all that extra tail in the back. You can position the foil a lot farther back towards the tail. So that. Essentially geometry where your foils flying and you've got something behind your foil that could touch the wave. It's not really an issue there. Okay. So actually, let's talk about that a little bit. Obviously having the wider square tail is as good for beginners because it's more stable and so on, but then yeah. Having like a more like a pin tail type shape, it just really makes it easier to carve through tighter turns or be on the way it's being more in the pocket without touching. Yeah. Or essentially the future will go and like more of a dynamic level of shape where we won't have a lot of bevel in the front of the board, but they'll tightened out towards the back where we've got quite a lot of bevel in the back, and that will allow hard carving over the tail and you still have enough flatness or around us in the nose that, if you do a jump or something that it doesn't attach, it just bounces off the water and allowing for easier recovery. I actually, I think I saw something from day from Dave Kalama. That looked pretty interesting. I think one of his downwind boards he's got like that type of tail shape where it's completely flat. There's no more Tictail, but his bevel radius cut SIM quite harsh towards the back. So if we start specializing more into sort of, this is our wave boards for winging, they'll start, tend to end to look like that sort of like that various sort of sharp. Bevel towards the back where you're taking all that area out where you don't really need it for wave riding. And then for freestyle, you will still need that wider back. It's essentially like in windsurfing where it will essentially have specialized wave wing boards and freestyle wing boards and speed wing boards and whatever else. Yeah. One thing is I find that board design Ferber design is constrained a little bit by the plate Mount because you got that those two flat boxes that basically force you to have a flat section in the back of the board. Whereas if you had a Tuttle or whatever you could have like you said, you could bring that thing right up to the very point of the, exactly you have to get out of the V. That would be for me personally, that would probably be the best interesting thing, but not another issue is actually you do lose a lot more if you don't have the tracks. It's having that adjustability between foils goes the biggest issue for, for me, if I didn't have, if I had like only a Tuttle box would be, I wouldn't be able to write as many files as I do. And there's a huge spread. For example, actually my favorite of all times, like this thing here, which is the Moses thousands, actual high aspect, wing aspect, ratio of 10, but it's also got like a, more of a K-12 geometry. So the mass is actually really far forward. It's close to the front wing and I have to ride this at least five or six centimeters farther forward than I ride all my other foils. And then not being able to move that around would be like, I have to have a different board for every different style of a foil that I ride, which is just not practical. Yeah. Cause if it was too far back, you basically can't put your back foot back far enough on the board to, to control it, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Also, the boards all work, with the rocker lines we have at a certain foot placement and there's no point of moving around too much or else the borderline leader, if you're too far forward, it will start breaking. If it's too far back, it'll always tend to do early. So yeah, having the tracks is good. The actual thing is there, isn't a huge amount of gains from having a little bit of Wii or having just a tunnel the actual sort of drag effect or the Quanta effect doesn't scale as as aggressively as most people think. Cause I've raced with. Huge adopter pedestals, like total box to play adopters, for sure. Like massive. And you would think they dragged like tremendously, but compared to a normal Tuttle, it drags a little bit, but not at a really noticeable level. So for me, for example, when I started using the gophers, that's how I did it. I, my guys are all had that big, massive aluminum adapter on there, and I still got going on small waves. It didn't drag enough to actually have a big detrimental effect. So most plates don

Whether it's swimming with sharks, wing foiling in big waves a day before giving birth, or "toiling" on smooth North Shore walls with her smooth and flowy foil surfing style, Glennel Jordan lives a full life and openly shares about her background, surf foil and wing foil technique and equipment, her Macaw, her husband Zack and baby Raven, adventures, stories and how she keeps a positive outlook.   Wing Foil Show transcript: Aloha friends, it's Robert, Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show produced right here in my home office, in the garage. On the blue planet show, we talk about wing foil technique and equipment, and I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, what inspires them, and how they live each day to the fullest. You can watch these long form interviews on YouTube, with video, or you can listen to them as a podcast on the go, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app. Today's interview is with the awesome Glennel Jordan, she's amazing. She actually Wingfoiled the day before she gave birth, she's going to talk about that in the show.  She just has a real smooth foiling style and she credits it all to spending a lot of time foiling.  Her husband is also a fanatic and they're a super cool couple, right here on Oahu. And without further ado, please welcome Glennel Jordan. Glennel, welcome to the blue planet show, it's really great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, tell us a little bit about your background, like where are you from, where you grew up and then also how you got into watersports and board sports and so on. I am from the place where there's lots of water, Las Vegas.  The ninth Island and yeah, I grew up in Vegas, so I had no experience besides my swimming pool with water. My mom was in show business. She was a show girl. So I have the opposite background of most people in surfing. And then we moved to Malibu when I was, let's see 13, I believe. And that's where I started surfing Malibu Surfrider beach, the epicenter of surfing in Southern California. And and then when I was 15, we moved to Maui. So I finished high school in Maui and that's when I really got into surfing at Hookipa after high school, after school. And yeah, and then I, once, once I was in Hawaii, I was like thinking where I'm going to go to college. And a lot of people in Hawaii that grow up here, usually getting out of the state to go to college. But I decided I love the islands. I love Hawaii. And I love surfing. I love nature. So I knew that I wanted to stay here. So I moved to Oahu for college and went to Hawaii Pacific university. And I've been on Oahu ever since. Okay. So you've been here since you're 15 years old in Hawaii, first Maui then? All right. Yeah. So 20 years, I'm 35 now. Yeah. Yeah. And I I've lived on North shore the whole time. I had a friend that was living on the North shore and I was like, Oh, I'll just live with her. She had an extra room and that's it. So I had moved to the North shore when I got here. And then surfing ever since, and just getting into all the different ways to enjoy the ocean up here. If there's an option to enjoy the ocean on a certain kind of board, I've tried it, I've done it. I've gone into it and then maybe I've stopped doing it. Yeah, I love it. I can't, I probably will never live anywhere else. I can't imagine it. Yeah. Oh, so your mom's a Vegas or was a Vegas show girl. So you never got into that. No. She was she was a dancer and everything, and she was very specific about not giving me any dance lessons or singing lessons. She was like, you are going to be a smart business person. Yeah, she wanted me to take the opposite trajectory and I certainly did. I, I studied finance and business and I'm a financial advisor now. So yeah, you got an MBA as well, right? Yeah. MBA in finance. And she just didn't want me anywhere near that industry. She, saw that long-term, it's like really hard for people to build a life and a career, out of show business per se. Yeah. Yeah. So your early childhood memories that got you into the sport, was that in Malibu when you learned to surf or can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. She, I remember my mom picked me up from the airport after I was seeing my grandparents and she said, guess what? She's we were like inland if a Malibu for a little bit, but she was like, guess what? We're moving to Malibu. And she had already bought me a surf board and this, our board was in the car was a Stuart longboard. And I was like, Oh, okay, here we go. And so as she's I got some lessons from some guy at Surfrider Malibu, and then that's where just took off from there, catching my first waves over at Surfrider and I just. Yeah, I've just been drawn to it. I was never a team sport. I'm an only child. So I noticed a lot of like only children kind of gravitate towards like solo sports more. I was never really into team sports. So I really liked the, the solo illness and like the being by yourself, the meditativeness that surfing is when you're, by yourself, in the ocean with your own thoughts and your own capabilities to get, put you in and get you out of situations. So I really, I was gravitated towards, like how difficult surfing can be, when learning surfing or learning any new sports in the ocean. Yeah. And then how did you get into foiling? So my, so I met my husband like 10 years ago and he's. He's one of those really kinds of people that is how do I describe it? He's just, he reminds me of an older version of Kane where his brain is like, always thinking of so mechanical and thinking of like different things to do. And like just expanding like what you can do, even if it seems like difficult or impossible, he's always come coming up with ideas on things that we should do that a few years later, like everybody's doing it. And he's, he got me into dirt biking and kite surfing until five years ago. He he's look at these videos of, people foily, but actually in fact, like 15, 20 years ago, no people were Tofoya late. They had these old foils and we were, we didn't have a bunch of friends that used to do this old, this foiling, like from a long time ago, these old Hattie foils where you're like, boots, you're, you're strapped into these boots, it wasn't very attractive at that point. But five years ago is when he started, foiling just started with a lot of some of the professional surfers, like Kailani. And he's- we need to do this! And I was like, I don't know. I really liked surfing the way it is, going out on my gun when it's bigger or shortboarding, and I'm like that just, I don't know. I wasn't sold on it at all, but he just went ahead and he bought foils from this kite surfing company. And they were like these big, heavy foils. They were like, they were so heavy. And I can't remember the name of it. You said it and they were so happy. And I was like, I'm still don't know about this. And We have a jet ski and he was like no, it was really great. We got to do this. And we went out so many sessions trying to figure out foiling on these big, heavy. And most of the time we did not do that well. But we had fun with it. We laughed about it. We enjoyed how difficult it was and how bad we were. We just kept doing it. And and then the summers around here on the North shore of Oahu can get extremely hot and extremely flat. And you can spend your time in the mountains, like mountain biking or dirt biking, but I decided I wanted to like why not, I'll try and bring my foils down to the beach and try and foil. And this is when no, not really anybody else was foiling over here. And I would just go down to sunset beach and I used to started teaching myself to foil on these big, heavy, clunky foils. Yeah, like three years ago, I think. And I slowly got into it, I've been, I like, I spent so many hours surfing in the water. I'm really good at paddling and catching waves. So it was I caught onto it pretty quickly. My husband, not so much, he hates surfing and crowds. So he's, he doesn't spend a lot of time like prone surfing in any capacity out here because it just it's gotten really crowded out here. So he didn't really pick up on the prone foiling as quick as I did. But no, I really enjoyed it. I really just enjoyed how difficult it was. I know that's weird. It sounds weird, but I like it. I enjoy the the challenge. And everybody else is longboarding and I'm like, I'm going to do this foiling thing because it's fun when I make it to my feed. I'm able to glide a little bit. And yeah. And then, I don't know. I think the next foil we got was maybe an Armstrong. Like I, it's all kind of a blur, the whole learning process. So I'm just scrolling through your Instagram account here on Instagram, your ocean, baby ocean underscore, baby. And this is some older stuff, but I guess you had, you got a baby Macaw. We got it from an egg and we put it in an incubator and we hatched it. Oh, wow. Yeah. And we live up in the mountains on the North shore. And so she was a free flying and this is another one of those crazy ideas. My husband has more than I'm not really sold on this idea of, he just goes out and does it anyways. So he brings us MCI and home. We had shit, we raise this baby in the car and when it starts flying, we decide we don't want to keep it in a cage because they're like so magnificent. And we're like, it's going to be our free flying Macaw. And so we let it outside and it's just like flying all over the North shore. It all, it came home every night. Wow. Yeah. I came home every night. It slept inside. We had a perch for it and its own room. And like a ma I swear, half of the North shore knew this parrot. Her name was Bob Barela. And and that's right when I was getting into foiling with her. And we had her for about two years and she went to everybody. She visited everybody that lives up in the mountains, on the North shore, the whole neighbor door. She just land on everybody's patio and talk to them. It was really stressful dogs, packer, but she ended up passing away. After two years, she did decide to sleep outside one night. And in Hawaii we do have, a month out of the year that it does get really cold up in the mountains. And I she passed away in a tree and overnight, and I think she got hyperthermia, unfortunately. Yeah. And we were never able at, when we had her, it was like having a child. We couldn't do anything late at like into the afternoon hours because we needed to be home to make sure she came home and, get her in the house and get situated. So we always say that I probably wouldn't, we wouldn't have become that obsessed with foiling if she was still alive, because, with having a child, we were like paid so much attention to her. And it was like, so heartbreaking when we lost her, we were so crushed. And the first thing we did the day we found her, cause we were just like sobbing and we were so upset. And the first thing my husband said is, Hey, let's go towing, toiling, toe foiling, make the ski and go out because we haven't been able to, stay out until dark before. And it was like our way to heal ourselves. And that was exactly what we did. We loaded up the ski and we went toiling and and then it just became this obsessive toil craze where we were just going out all the time on the jet ski toilet. And I, I. I'm pretty sure. My husband coined the term toiling. So is actually your husband's Zach that got you into foiling. He was like, yeah, but then I like progress because I surf so much more than him. He's more into dirt bikes and now he's trying to keep up with you, huh? Yeah. So for, in foiling, like I progressed so much faster than him. So then I became obsessed with it, but he really enjoyed it because it was a way for you to go and get in the ocean where we weren't, in all these crowds you could go to places that weren't the wave wasn't that great. Or you could be inside of people and have fun and didn't have to deal with the crowds. And so that was a major game changer. Okay. So that picture on the left. So we took our honeymoon and into the mental wise can Dewey. And if you've ever been there, it's some of the best. Finest easiest waves on the plane. And at night it's you're certainly like your dream. And so we're planning this trip and I'm so excited and he's Oh, we got to take the foil. And it was like, you're crazy. We're going to the best waves on the planet. And you want to bring this clunky? I was like, I was so mad because I didn't want to bring any boards. I just wanted to use their boards down there. I didn't want to deal with traveling with boards and he's no, we're bringing it. We're bringing it in. So we bring, our big foil board and our big foil to the best waves on the planet. And we ended up having so much fun over there because the owner of the resort let us use the ski. And so we were like towing in, into foil ways over there. I think if you scroll up, you will see my first, some of my first toe in waves were at Cannes Dewey at this place called four bogs. I don't know when and you brought your bird with you? No, we face time, sir. It's so cool that she could fly for you and every story, right? That's so cool. It was so cool. And it was so much education having a, your own McCall like that, that I realized that parents shouldn't be held in captivity. They shouldn't be pets because there's just such smart, intelligent animals. And that people can never give them the life they deserve. They need to be out flying. And so now I'm like this huge advocate or parents shouldn't be pets and I'll never make that mistake again, taking them a call. So the video are you talking about? Is that one of these here? I think it's up actually put, ended up posting it a lot later if you want. I can Should I let you take over a baby. As an egg, basically, you got, so you were the parents really before the birth. Okay. So tell us about this wave. So this was one of the first times we tow foiled was in canned Dewey on our honeymoon. This was like one of my, what is this? 2018. So what's that three years ago, this was at four Bob's, first learning about tow and foiling or toiling and what a magical place that places can Dewey. This big board, this big clunky foil at Yeah for Bob's, which is like this amazing. Right-hander like super easy. Every wave is exactly the same. And yeah, by the, I think I think I kinda got the hang of it better than my husband at this time. And I was like, Oh yeah, now I get this, you just ride the swells. This makes perfect sense. And my husband is such a Motorhead, so he loves things. Like I said, he's more of a dirt biker, but he loves things with engines. And so every moment's notice we were free, he'd be like, want to go on a jet ski, you want to go toilet? I'm like, geez, like you want to do it this much. And he's yeah, of course. Why not? And motocross to you, you were doing a lot. Let's like we did trials. So motorcross is you have this big bike and you're like going around a track doing jumps. So we do Trials, which is a dirt bike with no seat. Again, like he finds is the weirdest hardest ways we can do activities. And he's that's what we should do. So we have, we were students way down here. See how obsessed I got with foiling. It just took over my Instagram. Yeah. You post a lot on Instagram. It's just amazing. Like how many times a week do you usually post? What do you say? Like honest every day. It depends what I'm doing. I just friends with people that always take pictures and it's so cool. It's such like a, a memory bank for yourself where, we're only going to be this young one, so might as well. I can't even find my trials pictures anymore, but they're basically dirt bikes with no seats. And on the North shore, the mountains here, the dirt biking and mountain biking is as good as the surfing is, it's like the best in the world. And trials, bike, enables you to go anywhere basically where big motocross bikes can't go. And I can't even find them anymore. Oh, there's the egg is hatched. Huh? There's some bikes. Those are chickens. We farm chickens. Do. Yeah. So trials, bike. Okay. Yeah. So you're not never sitting down. Really? Yeah. So it's like my mountain biking. It's like downhill mountain biking with a two 5,300 CC two stroke engine. So Lee, you can go uphill with the same fat in the same style as you would go. Downhill mountain biking super fun. But then yeah, when foiling came around it took over and I stopped dirt biking for a few years. And I just recently, now that I've had a baby I'm just recently getting back into trials and we've been riding and it feels good to mix it up, foiling, I think for a lot of people who started foiling, it took over our. Our brains where it's all you wanted to do. But it's nice to get back into a different sport again, it's not the only thing. Yeah. Okay. So then I guess you started toe foiling and then prawn foiling. And then how did you progress into wing for them? I, so I am a financial advisor and I have an office in Maui. Also. I have a partner over there and so I would go to Maui every couple months. To work with clients and work at the office over there. I'd stay there for about a week or so. And, before I went to Maui, I wouldn't bring a surfboard cause the surf's not great over there most of the time. And then when boiling came around, I was like, Oh my gosh, this changes my business trips all together. Now I can bring my foil and there's so many places to boil over there. And I, I kite serve too, but I never caught it over there, but I'd go check out like, who Keepa, like what was happening? And it caught on. And I had a client that was like telling me, she was like, this wing boiling thing. She had some people, she knew, some people that were getting into it. She's it's going to take off. And I was like I don't know about that. But then I went to whole Keepa and I saw some of these first guys that were whinging. Oh, what's that right? Caught that. It Hokies over to the side. And it was like double overhead and they were just killing it and I was. And not many people were winging yet. This was like two years ago and I was like, Oh, okay, now I get it. And this makes perfect sense to me. I was like, this is towing. You are basically towing in on your foil, but you are yourself, the jet ski and like how kite surfing is, you're your own jet ski. And and I went, when I got back to a wahoo, I told my husband, I'm like, we gotta do this. I'm like this winging thing, I'm finding a wing and you can even find a wing, like nobody was selling them. They were like out before you could even buy one. And so I ordered, this was my first one, this wing ride to Kuma that I got. And I didn't even know how to use it, but I just knew, I was like, I know I have to do this sport. And so my husband came with me to Maui. The next time I went and I was like, we got to learn this. And he was like, honestly, he's it's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. And he's a tight surveys and cutting like 20 some years and he wind surf. And then I brought him to hokey-pokey and we watched those same guys, like in some pretty big surf. And he was like, okay, now I get it makes sense. And then, so we came back to a wahoo and I connected with Christian I don't think, Christian one Maui days, his Instagram, and he came to a wahoo. So he came to Weill who one day today, I think hanging out with you guys or some of the South shore wahoo crew that wanted to learn to wing. And I was like, Christian you're in Oahu. Great. I was like, can you come teach me too? And so somebody drops him off at the airport and I go to the airport and I pick him up and we go straight to Kailua and I was like, okay, let's do this. Teach me how to wing. And that was my first day that picture Christian took where he showed me, like he showed me just a few simple things right off the bat. And I still do that same exact start today on almost no matter what board I'm on. The knees start, holding your hands to the side and right. Actually, yeah, walk us through that. Because a lot of people are starting out and you need help with that. Can you walk us through exactly how you start. Yeah. And like I noticed so many people don't get any pointers and it takes them forever. And like the simplest things, when I show people it like clicks and they get it pretty quickly. But yeah you always have the wing on your wrist, the Alicia, your is to never do anything without it on your wrist, crawl on the board, get on your knees. Don't worry about the wing it's on your wrist. You don't need to think about it. Just make sure it's downwind from you, crawl on your knees, hold the rails of the board, get super comfortable and then grab that leash and start pulling it in and then put, grab the front handle that's on that middle strap there and then grab the back handle. And the key that I think a lot of people miss is they're trying to. Hold it straight down wind and their body is straight down when, and you don't want to hold it like that instead, you really, what Christian showed me is that, like that angle, right? With your arms and your back where you want to like twist. And when you do that, what happens is you pushes your board up when, and when I show people that when I'm there to show people that it like clicks and it really helps everyone, everything come to gather, but it's holding it like this. And so this was my first day and I would just hold it like that as hard as I could. And right then you'll see the wind will catch it and you'll start pointing sort of up wind and start moving. And this nice start I did when I was nine months, 10 months pregnant. And it was so easy that that is something that I could do pretty easily being pregnant. And then you just put your front foot up and then your back foot up, and then you're standing. Yeah. That's pretty much how I do it too. And even on a smaller board, you can still start that way. Yeah. There's the thing about learning, weighing in and going through all this is at first, it feels like the most impossible thing in the world. And you're like, there is no way I'm going to do this. Like how in the world people do this and you just need to put in a don't let it get you down. Enjoy that hardness to it. Enjoy that every fall. Because I, the first time I was on my prone board and I put my knees under me, I was like, this is impossible. But after the fifth time doing it, yeah. I start on my knees, my board sinks a little I'm sinking more on the tail. So the nose will come up so that you don't, the nose doesn't dig in the water and same thing. I'll be w it's hard to balance on a little board on your knees, but it's totally possible do the same thing, reel it in. Same exact thing. And it works. I find a lot of times the hardest part is getting the wing over your head. Like from when it's sitting on the water to getting it up over your head, once you have wind in the wing, then it's more stable. Yeah, there's like a few seconds where you really just have to focus and believe in yourself and be like I can, but my husband is so funny. My husband says he's like the most uncoordinated person in the water and now he rides his prone board and he always says, if I can do it, meaning him. He's anybody can do it. And it's true. So if he can start on his prone board and he doesn't spend that much time in the water surfing, and then literally anybody can do it. He's a really good wing filer too now. So actually I was going to ask you, what's it like to be married to a wing foiler or both? I guess both of you are SEF obsessed with foiling. Yeah. So it's funny, as I learned first, I got these lessons from Christian and my husband just looked on that's just looks so stupid. He literally told me it looks so dumb. And then when I brought him to Maui, I gave, actually gave him lessons. I got the idea of how to go in and out. And so I taught him. And then he ended up he's this, his personality where, when he wants to do something, he just goes all out and like obsesses into it. And he actually got better than me pretty quickly because he just obsessed over. It would keep going and going. And frankly, I couldn't find the right board for me to continue on. So I had I quit for a month or two because, equipment is everything and winging. If you don't have the right equipment, then you're just going to have a horrible time. But he ended up getting a good board for him. And so then he just got, yeah, he got so much better than me and just started doing it way more. And when I was like nine months, eight, nine months pregnant, he's like everyday sake. I'm going winging. I'm going weighing, and I'm going winging it. And I was like, Jesus. I was like, you can't be like this when we have a baby. And he's no. I'm just doing it now because we don't have a baby yet. And it's true. He's really good now. But it's actually really helpful because when I was nine months pregnant, I didn't feel like doing anything. Like my energy levels were so low, but I would just at least drive down to the beach and he would help me rig my stuff up because it just, I didn't feel like doing anything. And once I got in the water, it was pretty easy. So it was, it's really helpful that he is a winger too, because he helped motivate me when I wasn't feeling that hot. And now he like, then he started doing like back wending and tax and all this stuff that I wasn't even considering. Cause I really just liked surfing mostly. And yeah, now he's like doing all these tricks and I was like, wait a minute. I tell you how to wing it. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, I love that term toiling too. I think that's when I, the first time I saw you foiling was when you were towing for length with Zach and I was just impressed by how you, he looked. I don't know just so efficient and I dunno, like a lot of times when guys are foiling on a wave, it looks like they're just like really tense and and you just look relaxed and totally balanced between, you got the foil just like totally balanced out and just look like, so in control that I was always really impressed by your style. Oh, thanks. It's honestly, because we spent so much time suffering. We try to tell people are like, they get so frustrated learning how to foil or learning how to wing. And I'm like, no, you don't understand how much leave time we put into suffering. People don't believe it. Right when you're a good winger already. They're like, think that it's just as natural and no, can you maybe show us some video of yourself? Like towing foiling? Do you have anything that you can show kind of progression? Yeah. The first, yeah, that first one in canned Dewey. That was my point. And Oh yeah. I'll show you this one video. Some of my best videos is when I was pregnant because I couldn't lay down. What was that? Your mom? I just think I saw a picture of your mom. Yes right there. Yeah. She was great from the eighties and nineties. Big hair. Yeah. His father was a ventriloquist in Las Vegas. Oh, that's your dad. Wow. Yeah, totally not the surfing background. Yeah, I was pregnant. I couldn't lay down and serve, so I was pretty much just winging and stuff boiling and one of my chefs. Yeah. Sorry. I want to, but yeah, I saw that some of those videos of the, you swimming with the sharks while you're pregnant, that's pretty cool to watch those, but yeah, let's watch this first. This was, I was eight months pregnant here. The water's so smooth. Yeah. It was such a beautiful day. This was like one of such, it was not even that big. It was pretty small that day. It was only like two feet Hawaiian, but I'm just so glassy. It's snowboarding and powder and once you get the hang of foiling and it's pretty effortless. And babe, my only goal was just don't fall. It's not a fun falling when you're pregnant. You have to be careful too. Yeah. I You can't really have heavy impacts and stuff like that. When you have you, can, you got your, my human body is pretty strong, but I don't want to, it doesn't feel good. So I just, my goal was just to be as smooth as possible. Not do any fast jerky movements and just stay up on foil. And yeah, my husband's flying the drone actually from the beach and then that's our friend that was driving me. Yeah. Zach does posts such nice footage with the drone, like out on the North shore. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. He was forcing me to buy a drone forever. He's get a drone and get a drone. And I was like, you get the drone anyways. I ended up buying it and he uses it more than me, but yeah it's fun to get footage of your friends. So that's the long wave. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Super long. Yeah. Can't disclose where any of the spots are. Yeah, that's fine. We don't want to be able to know, but yeah, I, living in tonic, I mostly went for on this side, but every now and then I make it out there like a week ago I was out on your side and while it was fun, it was a good session. I know. It's great. We didn't even know where we would be winging and then it just once we got into it, we were like, Oh, we can win bear and we can win there. And there, and then it just opened up so many spots where, you know, as a surfer, you'd be like, basically, it's you stay out of the water that day, but then we needed to all of a sudden, now I can wing and all these different places and just opened up the whole coast for us. Oh, this is. Let's see, this is, I was towing again. I was like 32 weeks pregnant was what's that? Yeah. Seven or eight months pregnant. And there was a hammerhead shark. You'll see it right there. Like how often do you get to see a hammerhead right into you while you're foiling? Yeah, it seems like they're curious about the foil is right. The sharks. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I think the cavitation I think attracts them or something, but so this again, I was like eight months pregnant and. I went shark diving. I didn't intend to get so close, but tiger sharks are a lot different than other, a lot of the other sharks around here, most other sharks will see you and just swim away. Tiger sharks come right up to show that video where he's like, where the sharks like opening its mouth and it's like chicken you out. Yeah. They are like, they come right up. They are ready to touch you and say, who are you? What are you? And luckily, I had that pole, my friend said, have the poll pushed him away. So I had my camera on that poll. I wasn't scared mostly because I have so many friends that are into diving with sharks that I understand how they act. But they come right up to you. I was like, Oh, okay. It was a huge Decker struck. It's not aggressive, but that's how they are, they want to check you out and see what you're all up about. Yeah. It's almost like they want me to get pet petted on the nose or something again. That's, that's how they see what things are, is with their mouth. And unfortunately their mouth has big teeth can be really dangerous, but yeah, it was super interested in us. And I was like, I think right after that, I swam back to the vote. I'm like, that's, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. Or scared after the fact, I was like, Oh man, that was, it was a little close for me. But like I said, they're not, I've been educated a lot about sharks and they're not They're not aggressive if you don't, you just have to behave the right way. Yeah. Cool. And then so let's talk a little bit about, I guess obviously when you're foiling it depends on your way and so on. So when you're pregnant, obviously you gain weight. So did that change what you were using? Did you use a bigger foil? Did these a bigger, yeah, it's so funny. My friend I'd come in from these sessions and I be complaining, I couldn't stay up on foil. And he was like you are like 30 pounds heavier. And I was like, okay. Point taken you're right. Yeah. So I did start using a bigger foil, actually the foil that my husband uses The hyper one 90, it's this high at a bigger high aspect oil. And that's what I think I'm using here because I'm in pretty much in light wind conditions, when you're maybe jiving and going back out or something, I could just, gently tap on the front of the board and it would just keep gliding and get me through a lot of those light wind sections. And I know it's hard to believe, but it was like, it was one of the easiest things for me to do. Being pregnant is waiting for boiling on a big foil. It was like so effortless and so low impact too. That if I, didn't know about winging, I probably would have mostly been out of the water for the last few months of being pregnant. So it was such a blessing to have this sport, this time of my life. Yeah. That's awesome. So you were pretty much, and then after you gave birth, you were pretty much back in the water again pretty soon too, or, yeah, I got back in the water after about a month. I stayed out, which was totally, I always thought that, it'd be so hard to not serve after having a baby. But that wasn't the case at all. I had so much fun hanging out with my baby. This is one of the first sessions that I did after getting back in the water. So my husband is filming it from the beach, holding the baby in the ergo, flying the drone. I'm out there winging. That's awesome. And I was like, Oh, it was on a small foil. I had a small wing. I was like, Oh, it feels so good to not be pregnant, but instantly lost 30 pounds. Yeah. It was like, yeah. Yeah. I have my body back. I was like, cause frankly, you start thinking for women out there when you're really pregnant, you start thinking, you're just suck at everything because you're so big and you can't move properly. But in fact it's just because you have a baby inside of you, extra weight. Yeah. Yeah. I got back into it and now we we'll just go to the beach to get a lot of the time. We just go to the beach together and bring all of our gear and one person goes out. Other person hangs out with the baby on the beach, and then usually he'll go out first and then come back and then rig up my gear for me. Cause I'll be holding the baby still is he can't really up gear. He always says, wait, I want to be the one to hold the baby. And you wake up the foil and pump up the way. Yeah. So do you end up using the same wing or do you have both have your own equipment or? Yeah, we have our own equipment. He writes the uniform when wings he really likes them. I guess they're a bit more powerful that F ones are probably like a little bit more, less powerful, but I really liked them because they are so lightweight. Yeah, the newer one, this strike that this Stripe right here, that's the newer one. It's super light. And this handles are really small. I like small handle. Cause when the handle is a lot of other wings, they have big handles and they kinda cramped my hands holding them for awhile. So I liked the small handles and I like how lightweight the F1 is. It might not be the most powerful one. But I, I dunno for me, I think it's totally fine. So what are the differences between the original this F1 swing? I think it's called N and then the strike would it, how did it change? So this is the original F1 Yes, swing. It's a little more flexy. And when you would be on your board pumping, trying to get up on foil, you could literally see the tips of the wings would be like fluttering and like bending. And I'm like, it's literally almost like wings and the fluttering kind of helped generate some wind power to get you going on. Some people complained about that. I actually really liked it cause I could feel that it was like pulling in the wing and generating power. And then the new ones are stiffer and you can pump them up to nine PSI. So they're a lot different, but they're also super lightweight. And I really love the lightweight as a female, even though I'm strong. I love that they're light because I don't get as tired holding them, whereas I've flown other wings and I just get a little bit tired after a while holding kind of a bulky wing. So I liked the F1, but yeah, my husband's still flies the the uniform oil wind wings. So this picture actually is interesting. And so this picture was on a bigger day off, up here on the North shore of Oahu, it was like six feet Hawaiian this day. And I was nine days overdue. This was the day before I gave birth. Yeah. My friend came down to the beach and his wife had made When do you call it cookies that supposed to help you go into labor or something. And he also took these pictures. He's don't eat these cookies unless you're ready. I'm like, I am ready. And so I grinded like 10 cookies and then I went back out for my second session that day. He got that picture and I'm like, that's so cool. And then the next day I had my baby those cook cookies made a difference. Huh. And that's another reason why it was really windy and hairy this day. And some of the guys were having a hard time, but I was like, whatever, it takes God to have this baby I'm going out there. I know it was just funny how that all works. Yeah. Yeah. And then I noticed once you gave birth to Raven that your Instagram feed is like now probably 80%, which is great. And she's so cute. I think you always think that, a baby is going to take away from your free time and the things you love doing. But in fact, you just want to spend so much time with your baby and you like want to integrate them into your life and show them the things you do. And it's so exciting. Like we joke that she really likes the windiest and coldest beaches. We always bring her down to the beach when it's like prime winning conditions. You think she actually likes that? She seems to not mind it we've been starting are really young, so she doesn't know the difference. She doesn't know that beaches are supposed to be warm and sunny. Yeah. So one of you is on the beach with the baby, the other one's out winging, and then you switch off. Yup. It's pretty much exactly how it goes. That's awesome. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the your foils that you're using. And I know you started with that big clunky ride engine and then now using uniform, right? Yeah. So tell us about your your foils. Yeah. So here I can you see, are you, can you see the Unifor website right now? Yeah. Okay. I got involved with uniform soil. That's another kind of a long story and it's related to my parrot, but anyways, they asked me to be the team writer and the distributor, and I said, Hey, why not? I'm obsessed with boiling as it is. So for towing, my absolute favorite foil is the one-fifty vortex. It's like the surf foil. And it's pretty small, but why I like it is that it doesn't have upward pressure, the faster you go. When you go toiling, you can go pretty fast sometimes, especially, on some of the big days up, out here on the North shore, when it's like maybe six foot Hawaiian or even eight feet, you're going really fast down the face of these waves. And. Something about the uniform oils is they don't have that. A lot of other foils, if you go faster and faster, that foils wanting to lift up and you're pushing hard on your front foot to keep it down. But the way the uniform oils are designed is they don't have that upward pressure. So they have an unlimited top speed. And so I love them for towing. It's just so smooth. And you would think that means it only works in big ways, but in fact, I ride the same foil prone foiling when it's like one to two feet. So it works in small waves and big waves. And before I got pregnant, I was winging with it too. Cause I would wing and, large conditions where it's like a foot or so overhead. And so I would be winging with this foil too. And when you're winging, it's windy. So the oceans bumpy and. You want a foil that can handle those bumps and cut through the chop smoothly. And it does that really well, too. So this was like my all around foil for the longest time was the vortex one-fifty I was just using it for everything. Do you know how many square centimeters the, that is surface area projected surface area? Or does it say you're going to ask me that, I guess it's 968 square centimeters. Okay. Yeah. And my husband, he really likes it for towing too. The bottom of the foil, is it pretty much flat or does it add a little bit of a curve in the back of it? So it's dihedral I don't think there's a picture. It shows of that. It's dihedral and, but generally it's, it doesn't have much of a curve. No. So it's pretty, pretty flat. Like now, it is low aspect, but yeah, like I guess like an Armstrong foils, like good comparison where they're like they have these big curves in them. Actually what I meant is like the profile, so if towards the back, if it's turned down a little bit cause I know that kind of helps with the faster you go, the more kind of a downward pitch it has when you have that little bit of a, on the bottom have that. I don't know what it's called, but it's almost Oh yeah, you have one there. Okay. Yeah. I have one. Let me see, I did my work office and my foil storage area. Actually take a look at it. One more vortex, one 50, but. Okay. Yeah. So it's, it doesn't have a lot of curve to the tips. It's pretty flat, but it has. Yeah. I see the dihedral and then it does look like it's on the bottom of the bottom side of the profile. It's a little bit, has a little bit of inward curve. Yeah. Is it? I don't know. I can't see really. I have to take a closer look at it, but that's probably why it doesn't have, probably has a little bit of forward pitch when you go faster, would think, yeah. Cause I trust me, I know what for Fred pressure feels like those are those right engines, right? Yeah. So fast speeds. Love it. I was writing that and six feet, eight foot surf, but honestly I like toilet in smaller ways. I think it's more fun. Head high, I think is like the perfect size. I don't need big waves for toiling. And when it's bigger, I think it's more fun just to tow surf or paddle ins or, something like that without the foil. And then you said can I ask, how much do you weigh? What usually? Yeah. Yeah, usually, it changes right now. I'm like 135 pounds. And then when you're pregnant you gained about, I was like 155 when I was pregnant. And then, so which, which further do you use when you were pregnant? You said you had still tow. Even when I was pregnant, I tow with the vortex one 50, but then when I was winking and I was like super lazy and I was like most important. I don't want to come off foil. I wrote a high aspect foil, but I wrote a bigger high aspect. I wrote the hyper one 90, wait a minute. That's the one 50 the hyper one 90, it's one of their newer high aspects. And the glide is just. They're all the same, but the one 90 that glide is just unreal. Like it's so effortless. So in, light winds, subpar, winging conditions, I could just bounce around, stay on foil because I just didn't have the energy to put, that much into staying on foil. And the one 90 just kept me going. And it took me like until I was like seven months pregnant to accept the fact that I needed to be on a bigger foil. And yeah, it kept me going. And even that big day, right before I gave birth and I was on the one 90, like writing, some pretty, big bumpy swells. And it, it handled find at works and big surf too. It's like, all my husband uses his, the one 90 and he rides it and. In all sorts of conditions with how much does he weigh? 175 pounds about, yeah. For winging toilet, foiling, everything toiling. He uses that same one. No, for toiling. We're all always on the surf foil, the vortex one 50. So he uses that as well. Yeah. What about mass length? What length? Yeah. So there's seven 50 and eight 30. So seven 50 is 29, 30 inches. That's what I use pretty much for anything. And then he uses the longer one for winging and towing. We have this whole like argument. He's it's better for winging to use a longer mass and he's right. But I personally can't tell the difference. So I use either one, I know, one day I went out and I was like, I'm so happy. I'm using the long mask. He's you're not you're on the short mask. I was like, Oh, I can't really tell a difference, but it does help. And when you're winning to be on a longer mask, because the ocean's bumpy and so you need more gifts. So you don't breach and same with towing. It's usually better to be on a longer mask. Yeah. Just affords you more mistakes, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And you can fly over the small chop without having to up and down so much. I find that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot better. Everybody that gets on a longer mask can feel the difference when you're in kind of those choppy, bumpy conditions. Yeah. I'm the only person I'm so easy. I can get used to almost anything I'm like, Oh, whatever. And what about tail wings? Whatever you like for using for tailings? My favorite is the flat tail wing, which is the one pictured here. But I do have a lot of writers on the canes back wing. Basically almost all my uniform writers are now using canes back wing and they love it. I haven't tried it. I don't know. I thought there was only one. I don't even know. Yeah. He has like all different ones, so yeah. Yeah, he does. They all love it. Most of my writers start off on the flat wing. And then eventually, and they'll say they love it. They'll cut it down to 14 inches is like a good length to cut it to, and then they'll get on the cane wing and they'll be like, Oh my God, it's amazing. And now they don't go back after they get on Cain's back, laying there, like stuck on it. They never come back to a regular back wing, but Yeah. So you're the distributor for all of Hawaii or for all the Hawaiian islands. You have little warehouse in your garage or how does that work here? In my office everywhere. And then you, do you sell them at pretty much the same prices on the website or exactly the same price. Okay, nice. Yeah, no shipping. That's good. Yeah. And like I shipped to Maui and Hawaii, but it's super cheap, right? Yeah. Yeah. What else still oil has been around like a really long time. They're one of the first companies to do two high aspect wings, and then they sold their designs to signature. And then just like couple of years ago, foil decided they wanted to like, distribute their own brand. And so it's like new ish in terms of being able to buy uniform from a distributor wherever you live. So not, they're not a lot of people are riding them, but the people that I do have riding that I absolutely love them. I think happy Tedford has a uniform. And I saw him the other day using a uniform when I first foil friends and him and our other friend, Johnny, and I got them on uniform. When I became a distributor and they love them. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And you saw the wingsuit or yeah. I don't sell wings as much. I just focus on the foils. My husband's more into selling wings to people. Cause he, he loves the uniform of wing wings. They have a lot of power and he's totally right. They do. So that's more his arena, but mostly I just focus more on the foils. I do have like my own job. I'm a financial advisor. I have my own company. I don't want to be doing. Yeah. I don't want to be doing too many different things. So let's talk a little bit about your board. I know you have that board that has your parrot on it airbrush on it or painted on it. Is that still the one you use is that your main board and it, can you talk a little bit about. You're bored. What you using the progression and so on? Yeah. I want to pull it up here. So it took me a while to figure out what kind of board to get for Wayne. Cause after you learn, you start off in these huge hundred plus leader boards, and then you realize that's not sustainable. You need to be on some things smaller. And I borrowed a board from Derek Jimmy Lewis, one of his boards. And when he got a new one and I got on the Jimmy Lewis and the first day, and I was like, Oh my God, this is what I need like this, these dimensions, this shape. It's perfect. And so I brought it back to my, if here on a wahoo Gordon assets in Hawaii and I was like, These are the dimensions. This is what we need to do for winging. Cause nobody else could tell me what to do. It was so new, like hardly anybody on a lot who was winning, but I was like, I got this Jimmy Lewis and I'm like, this is what we need to do. Can you please make me something like this copy of these dimensions and Bob Barela had passed away and he Gordon's like super artistic. He's he loves bright colors and he his daughter's an artist and she was home because of COVID and I didn't know, but they painted Barbarella on it for me. Yeah, it was so sweet. And so I would always say like when I went out, this was one of my first sessions with it. I was like, you can see Barbarella flying with me still. And this board was forced four, seven, four inches thick. And about 24 inches wide, I believe. And it was about probably 65, 70 liters. And it's good because balance on your knees, but it was short enough that it was super fun in the surf. You could turn it really easily, pretty much big enough to float you then, right? Yeah. Totally big enough to float you on your knees. So that's what you want, basically, especially on a wahoo where the wind's not always that great, it's not Maui. You want something that'll float you, but you also want something small enough that you can have fun in the surf. And that it took me a bit to figure that out. Then when I did this board, I just became obsessed with it and I wrote it for about a year up until I gave birth. And then I realized, and then it, I think I, I must've hit it too many times cause it started taking in water. Unfortunately it got a little heavy, but I got into winging with my prone board. And yeah, the other day I saw you in the water waiting for the gust on your kind of underwater. Yeah. But it's super fun. Like when it's windy, once you're up, then it's pretty awesome. Huh? Yeah. It's like those windy days, you're like, Ooh, it's like Maui, get out. You're a little bored and now I will put, so if it's super windy, I will put straps in it and pretend I'm in Maui and do jumps and things like that. Yeah. I see the jump. So let's talk a little bit about foot straps, like using footsteps versus going without and so on. Like what's your take on that? Yeah, so I usually don't use foot straps unless it's really windy and unless I want to jump I've cut. I kite surfed and tow surfed and we never use straps. So I was just, I've been used to not using straps and all my sports. So the only time I decided I wanted to use straps and is when it's really windy and when I want to jump. But also if you have straps that makes it really hard to switch your feet because I go switch stamps when I'm winging it. If I don't go switch stance, like it hurts. Like my legs lock up and your back it's kinda tweaked. So I have to go switch dance to me. It feels good to balance your body. And if you have straps in there, it makes it hard to switch. And if you're on a prone board, there's not even room for another strap. But if you want to just switch stance. So I do, like I said, I do put straps in, but usually only when it's really windy and when I'm trying to do jumps, so I'm still learning on how to jump good. But that is a day with straps. So you'll end up like putting this straps on and off your board regularly. Like you take them off and put them back on, take them off. I am. Yeah. So this is a day. So what, I ended up getting a Jimmy Lewis from my friend for as a light wind board, because my Barela board just got too heavy. And so this is a day just like few weeks ago on that Jimmy Lewis sport. So yeah, no straps and I'm, I like being able to move my feet around. But there's a case to be said for having straps and not having straps. Can you give some pointers on switching stance? I dunno, I learned. I learned and moved down to the smaller board pretty quickly. And I never really learned how to switch my stance. So I met you and you told me that back to a bigger board to learn it. So I'm like, ah, sorry, is, do not start to learn without going switch. So you can't learn to wing, then go back and try to do switch. That's I don't know anybody that's done that. If you're going to learn to wing, learn, switch at the same time, if you've already learned waiting, and now you're trying to learn, switch based and just accept the fact that you're going to be horrible. And you're going to, you're basically learning how to foil all over again, because remember learning how to foil initially it's wait a minute, front foot weight. Push really hard on the front foot. And that's what you have to train your brain to do for switch stands. And it's not going to happen immediately, but I probably put like a good week into doing it. Like every day where it, it started clicking. But what I would do is first you ride, switch, not on foil, so don't let the foil come out of the water, put all your weight forward and just ride, switch with the board on top of that water. And then when you're ready to come up, let weight off your front foot, come up and then push it back down. Don't try to come up and start gliding because your body doesn't know how to do that yet. You need to teach your body. So come up, push it down, come up, push it down. And you're like training your brain to go switch and you're training your front leg. And then. If you do that enough, you'll fall a few times. You will figure it out. But I know a lot of people just don't want to put that effort into it, but if I don't go switch my back, my, my leg cramps up my back hurts. So you get used to it, I guess like my hips used to always be sore for a minute, but now it doesn't bother me anymore. And I could go up when pretty steep going by twisted up. But yeah, I don't know. But and then the other thing is like switching your stance while you're up on foil. Is there like what's your trick to doing that? First be really comfortable going switch before you even try that. And then if you are comfortable going switch. What I found with so much of winging and all these different tricks tax and jumping and everything is the biggest obstacle is like in your own mind. And if you like overthink things too much, then you're going to psych yourself out and convince yourself that you can't do it. And the, I, when I want to go switch, basically what I do is I wait until I go over a little lump and the nose of the board comes up and I'll just, and, but the biggest thing is just do it without overthinking it. And then the quicker you do things and just know that it's, you might fall a few times, but don't overthink it. And the more I don't overthink things, the easier they are to just do them. I know it's easier said than done. Yeah. I just started doing, just start hopping back. If you can go switch Sanchez. Just hop to start hopping and put your feet the other way. And eventually it'll just start clicking. Yeah. Yeah. The last interview I did was with Kendall wild and really liked what he, the way he put it was I guess he likes to really get technical in his mind and think about how everything works and stuff and be in that state of mind before he gets on the water. But then once you're doing it, you just have to let your body hat make, or let it happen basically. Or, your body automatically takes over and you just look where you want to go. And so maybe talk about that. Like when you get into the, when you're really into it and just everything's just clicks and you're in tune and no wrong yeah. Sorry, go ahead. How many, so many athletes they talk about that, like you, you have to envision it and, think about that. I think that's what came things is he has to understand the mechanics. And I probably I'd probably go through that in my head too. You have to envision see yourself doing it, but then yeah, once you're on the water like you don't need to think about that anymore. Just become one with the ocean, just be so happy that you're out there and take in the glory of it all, whether or not you're ripping or killing it, that doesn't matter. And just go with the flow. And if you want to do a jive, you want to switch your feet. You want to jump, just just do it. Don't overthink. It just embrace the place you're in. And what I see is so many people get so upset. They get so frustrated when things go wrong and don't worry about it supposed to be hard. If it's the, wouldn't be fun, if it wasn't hard, just have fun. And the whole process of trying and falling. And yeah, that's what I do. I just go out, like, when I was pregnant, it was just one side. It'd be up on foil. I'd be like, Oh, all my worries are gone. And you just do your best. And when you think you want to switch your feet or jumped, just don't think about it. Just say I want to jump and just do it. You might not make it. It's okay. So that's the attitude I take with all my sports is, it's going to be hard. It's going to suck, but enjoy that part of it. Yeah. So do you have any tips to get into that, right? That state of mind where you're just enjoying it and then you're in the moment and you're not like getting mad at yourself for not being good enough or something like that. It's appreciate appreciation, like appreciating where you are, that you even have the opportunity to like, have a wing in your hand, like we're so lucky, like in America we can do these things and just appreciating that you get that experience. So many people don't get to do the things we do. So I think it just comes down to appreciation mostly. I like that. So are you are you working on any new tricks or like what's your anything you're trying to pull off that you're not that good at yet or any so while I was pregnant, my husband's like, when are you going to do attack? And I was like I don't want to fall right now because I'm really hassle me every day. When are you going to do it to act? And I'm like, okay, now I'm learning to do attack. I'm not pregnant. So I started doing tax, but I I do come, you have to wait until it's no, the right situation where you're like all, when you come out of a wave and you're almost tacking or the wind, so off shore that it's makes it just so easy to tack. What's your stance before you tack or after you tack? It depends. It depends which way you're going. Yeah. So I guess if I'm tacking, if I'm going back out to see all B I haven't switched my stance, so I'll still be tweaked. And then you like tack into a wave and then you're still in your regular stance. But then, on the other side of the Island, everything's obviously right. So just, but he's always gives me a hard time that I'm not into learning tricks. Cause I'm such like a surfer, like I want to serve mostly more than anything. But yeah, so I'm starting tax. Sometimes I get them sometimes they don't and then I stopped jumping too while I was pregnant, because that's probably not very safe when you're really racing. So I've gotten, I'm starting to get back into jumping and I want to learn to, hang like Annie star is she's so inspiring. But we just don't get the same wind that they get. So we don't always have those strong gusts to be able to jump. And then watching you jump how you do a cut back and then you kinda jump as you're doing a cut back. I've saw you do that the other day. And I was like that. I need to learn that, jumping a lot of it is like turning into the wind. So you kinda, that way you get more hang time, the more you can. Go up when in your jump, the more you can hang in the wind wing and the softer the landing is too, and you don't definitely don't want to jump just like straight with the sideways to the winter going downwind. Cause then you have no more pressure once you're up in the air. I don't know. But yeah, that works really well on the North shore because I can jump in my regular stance on the wave and that's super fun actually. Yeah. So that's, that was, yeah. I kept seeing you do those. I was like, Oh, okay. That's how I learned. Most things it's just watching other people. It was like, Oh, I'll just try and copy what they did. Yeah, no, it's actually, that's a good way to learn, to tack, to just go behind someone that's attacking him. Just try to do exactly what they did. Yeah. Don't think about it. Just say, Oh, that looked easy. I'll try it. Have you taught other people how to wing foil and like what's your process or what do you do to teach others how to get through? I've taught a bunch of people how, and I'm like, I'll go in the water and I'll hold the board so they can get on their knees. So I really drill that whole getting on your knee thing and then holding the wing, like that is super important. And just that couple of basic little things are super important. And then my most favorite way, and not everybody agrees with this, but my favorite way to teach people how to wing is to take them on a really long down winder. So they can just fall their way down when, for five miles. So I taught my friend, my one friend like this, and by I think it was like five, six, seven miles. And like the last mile he started getting it. He fell for the entire time until the last mile. And then he was like, Started going back and forth. And I was like, I, yes, I knew it. I knew this was a good way to teach people. Yeah. That's actually how we learn to like Derek comma and Jeff Chang. And I, we just did like Hawaii Chirons instead of, we were always trying to do it on windy days with a paddle, stand up foiling and it was so hard. And then with the wing, it was hard too in the beginning, but then once you get it, it's so much easier when you have the wing than trying to do it with a paddle, and just being able to not have to worry about staying up wind and just going downwind. And so you just, cause you have to get. To the end. So you just figure out how to do that. And I, the most important thing is to have a positive attitude because you will fall a thousand times. And I, every I'd come by my friend each time, like you, okay. I need a big smile on his face. He's I'm fine. I'm like perfect. By the end, he got it. So yeah, if you can find a place to do a long downwind or somewhere where it's safe, you're not getting blown out to sea. That's optimal because yeah. It can be a struggle trying to stay up when you're first learning. Yeah. That's a good tip. I like that. But as long as you, as long as you can get back and maybe have someone who can help, go with you, that can keep an eye on your insulin, do it alone. Like I'm always I'm always willing. Anybody wants to learn and I'll do a down winder with you. I always say that to people and I'll just be with them, and I'll bring my cell phone and a Fanny pack. And just make sure they make it back to the beach. And then I'll just have fun doing circles around them. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. We have such a great flow community here on the wahoo too. It's everybody's so just how everyone's having fun and open and it's not I guess shortboarding can be so like I dunno, so competitive and yeah. It's almost like playing chess where people try to like, or psych each other out and stuff like that, where you're trying to get the next wave and try to like outmaneuver everyone else to be able to catch the next wave and stuff like that. And wing flailing is like totally different where it's just not like that. No, it's, we're like so stoked when our friends on our wave and like teaching people, everybody wants to help each other. Yeah. And surfing is so such an one of my, my, my husband stopped because it's so like aggressive and angry. I'm better than you kind of mentality. And so that's why I really, I think during this interview he laughed, he like took off to go winging. Yeah. But I guess if wing for lane all of a sudden there's 10 times as many wing filers on the water. It might be a little bit different again, too. But I think right now it's just yeah, everyone's just having fun and everybody knows each other. And we have this WhatsApp group and everybody's like posting, Oh, it's windy here. It's windy here or whatever. And there's waves and this and that. So everyone's just like sharing all the information, which is, I think it's awesome. So opens up so many more places, where, there's so many places you can go we haven't even touched so many places you can probably wing. That's true. And that's, what's so cool too, about being on an Island is that, there's always, it's always side shore somewhere or onshore somewhere. And like there's waves on one side or the other side usually, or, you can like, yeah. And you can get pretty much anywhere in an hour. So I'd say that's pretty awesome about a wall who, that we have so many spots that are right. And he's got so many options. So I just don't see getting crowded. Yeah. And the open ocean is just if you, like you said, if you'd just doing downwinders and writing open ocean swells, there's really no limit to how many people can do it. It's like really there isn't. Yeah. That's what I love about it. That kind of brings us to like what do you see for the future? Like how you think Wing's gonna progress and what do you see for any ideas for equipment and just progression and so on? What do you see for the future? Pre foiling, like kite surfing was like the wind sport, and every most surfers you talk about kite surfing and they're like not interested in

Kane De Wilde is on the leading edge of wing foiling as both athlete and designer.  Listen, learn, and apply it on the water! Interview transcript: Aloha. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to the Blue Planet Show where I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders, right here for my home office in the garage. We talk about Wing foiling technique and equipment, and I'm also trying to get to know my guests, their background, what inspires them, and how they live each day to the fullest. You can watch these long interviews on YouTube or listen to them as a podcast on the go, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app. This show was made for those of you who are as crazy about wing foiling as I am. I'm not rushing through these interviews. This is like the opposite of a 30 second Instagram video. They're super long interviews, and I know they're not for everyone. And really I'm just making these for the 5% of you that actually watch the whole thing. So I hope you're one of those elite people at the very top, the five percenters and that you're going to watch the whole thing. Today's interview is with Kane De Wilde He is an amazing young athlete. And before I talked to Kane, I didn't realize how involved is in the design aspect of the sport, a foil design board design, and also developing an R and D and wings. So he has some really in-depth knowledge, probably more than anyone I've talked to so far. And that's why this interview goes pretty long, but I think you'll find every minute of it is very interesting and I could have actually kept going for a lot longer. So without further ado here is Kane De Wilde: All right, Kane. Welcome to the blue planet show. It's great to have you here. So to get started, maybe just tell us a little bit about your background, start from the very beginning. Where did you grow up and tell us about your early childhood memories that kinda got you into water sports and so on. Hi, Robert, thanks so much for having me on it's super cool that you're that you're hosting something like this and I love listening to him. So that's going to be fun. I started the whole journey probably in middle school, getting into sailing, super into surfing skateboarding and. Through sailing. I was dinghy racing actually. I have a natural evolution of dinghy racing. I wanted to learn how everything works and how to improve and how I could do my sail better and shift my weight in the boat better to go, to get a slight edge. And so I started researching, how boats workout, how sales work, how your rudder and daggerboard work. And that's kinda what started it after that. So sorry, but you were born and raised on Maui or? Yeah, born and raised Valley. I grew up country lifetime surfer. Okay. And how old are you now? I am now 20, just turned 20. And and can you also tell us your weight that people always ask about that, right? Yeah. I'm six, six Oh and 195 pounds. That's very similar to me. So early on you started dinghy racing and then I think glider. Yeah. So it think directing your racing is so much fun and it's such a deep sport. It's crazy how the tiniest little fail tuning or tiniest little thing can give you such an edge. That's in white Kai on a wahoo new King day in an open Vic. I remember being terrified to go out that day. And my coach is K a K E N, or you gotta go, you gotta go, you gotta go. And eventually pushed me enough to get in the water. That's probably until that my, my best session ever. So that one was the boat on the right. I actually have that right here. This is the first thing I ever 3d modeled. Oh, cool. Okay. All right. And it's the first thing I ever glass. And it's what set me on this track. Really. So that's like a model of a like a displacement D sailboat. Is that what, it's more of a planning hall. But I made three different variations of these and took them to a river and tested the resistance with little scale. And that was my project, my big project for eighth grade. How did you test it in the river? I took it to a river with really consistent flow and it might be a little hole. There's a little hole on the front here, tied a rope through it, put a a gram fishing scale. I really finally find a fishing fill and just let it sit and took an average over a few minutes. And then why did you take test some variations of it or? Yeah, so I have three variations. I don't know where the other ones are right now, but I just changes in the outline or the rocker changes in the bottom just to see what kind of effect they have. That's amazing. And how old were you when you were working on that eighth grade? So pretty young. You were a little bit more, a little bit chubby before you got tall and lanky. I was flailing magic, isn't it? I know. There's like a lot of people look a lot skinnier after they started foiling. Yeah. Oh look, I was into kite boiling too. I, before I, I ever did it, but I made a little model foils. And took them in the river too. Wow. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Super fun. So we have a forklift and when my friends came over from hood river, awesome. We hooked up a bar to the forklift over the trampoline and I'm aware we're practicing our move and these posts are super old because I actually started to cover my college thing. If I could document all these different things to eventually show to a college when I want to get them cool. And it just evolved from there. Yeah. You did like glider planes. Yeah. Stridor, planes, kiting, all kinds of stuff there with my rudder cool cards. All right. And I met you a couple of years ago, you came over to a wahoo and you did that pumping contest where the point was to catch a hundred ways with your team. And I was sitting in the channel at Queens watching you are in the heat before us, and you were just going round and round, pumping back out, touching another way of going back out and kinda so cool to watch you like so efficient. And then even sometimes you would like rest and put your hands on your knees and glide a little bit to rest your legs and stuff like that. That was really impressive. Do you have any pointers on pumping technique? The biggest thing pumping is finding the right rhythm and speed for your foil. And being able to learn to have enough control of your pump to be able to vary like your speed and tempo until you find that. And it took a while of telling tuning in front wing and board placement to get a nice rhythm and be able to ride super efficiently. Another cool thing pumping is if you want to go for a super long time, the spot and wave and conditions, make a massive difference. So all of my longest waves have been on at spots with a good amount of power, right off peak and ideally two peaks next to each other, and a pretty consistent wave. That's why big, bigger waves are good because what you can do is only stay on pump out to a wave and only stay on it long enough to get your speed back up and then instantly kick out again. And basically do figure eight between the two peaks. And the goal was to not pump between the two. So you just stay on it long enough to get your feet back up, kick out with enough speed. So you can just collide into the next way without even pumping at all. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I've had some like 45 minute ride and it was at that same, the same kind of setup where you dropped down the face of maybe a head high wave and then just two pumps to the next peak and do the same thing the other way. And the only limiter, which was really how consistent the waves were. So what killed me there was was a big break. So I know you've tried a lot of different wings and foils and you design them as well. So what what's your favorite right now? Which wing do you use for like combination of pumping and surfing? What's your favorite. I use a 10 80 mid aspects mostly right now. And I vary the tailing depending on the condition. So if I'm surfing and doing some low speed pumping, I'll use a different tail wing. And if I'm at, if I'm going like high feed, downwind, or winging, I'll use the tailoring more suited to that. But I actually have one of those links right here, the screen share, this is a version of that 10 80. I have one new carbon, but this is a carbon insert. And just the design up. And I've been refining for a few months. So this is, yeah, this is CMC that a G 10 with with an 11 millimeter. So this is a 11 millimeter carbon insert it's in here or epoxy didn't hear. And there's no, you can't feel any gap between the two material. And this is all credit to Dennis partner tectonics. He does just an insane job of CMC and finishing these wings so that, and that's where the signature line. No, this is just my own stuff. I originally did it super modified meal prep, but I have it here. I got everything ready. So I made this fuselage to fit that it's front wings. It might hard to see behind your black shirt. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah, that looks really beefy. It's beefy in the center, but really the fender is. So I use signature old signature uniform mask. And center's just big enough for that connection. And the rest is pretty skinny. I tried to lower the drag, but still keep it stiff. Yeah, this is the Moses fuselage reference, right? So it's pretty similar in size to the motor. It's the width is the same, but the thicknesses it's thicker. So that gives it a little bit more rigidity by the mat around the mask. Yeah. Cool. It's just big enough to fit that math connection. So you do foil designs? Right now you're working with signature and Neil pride, right? You, yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, I've done some work with signature and Neil pride and I'm pretty happy with how it all turned out. I can I don't know how to explain it. The no private thing was funny. I met Robert stray who was at the time the portfolio guy just at the beach. And we started talking to Zion Oh, we're looking for, we're looking for someone to make a photo. And I heard like you're designing stuff. And so somehow I ended up designing a full set for them. Or I originally designed to one wing is to called the medium slim. And there's some pretty cool videos of Calgary writing it, but they went really well. So after that I designed a whole line, but. It's kinda being thrown into the fire as far as designs, because we didn't do any prototyping. So I got one shot, like you got to design something and it goes straight to a stainless production mold. That was pretty intimidating for the first time. But I'm actually really happy with how it all came out. It's available now. I've been seeing some videos of people riding it. Wow. Yeah. I That's super impressive for you at 20 years old to be like a professional designer basically already. Yeah. And that design was probably one and a half years ago. So you started using 3d modeling software back in eighth grade. You'd said like with that kind of was your first class project that you worked on with the 3d modeling. And can you, like earlier you showed me on your computer, you had some design stuff. So maybe show us a little bit and talk a little bit about what kind of stuff you do on the design side. The super interesting I find, yeah, I can show a little bit of it. So this is the stuff I'm showing is mostly really old stuff. So my modeling is definitely trade secrets screen. So here's the, there's two. We did two versions of it, the one on the left and the one on the right is super solid. And it's amazing how much, like a tiny difference around here will make. Oh, it's just a front between the mass in the fuselage. It's a little bit more thick. Yeah. It's hard to see. I can see it. Yeah. A little rounded in there. Yeah. That's the difference between super solid and just spending until it breaks. Wow. Yeah, they were funny on our wings too. Like having that little bit more especially between the mass and the front wing it's the forces are amazing, like the, so that is a really important area. And the other thing is having your volume distribution along the length of the fuselage, as smooth as possible, because any breaks in that aluminum doesn't like that would be a failure point. Another big difference is the whole depth was different for this one had too deep of holes. And that took a lot of material out of the top of the fuselage, where this one has a slightly shallower holes that are still strong enough for the, both the wing on, but leave a lot more material in the top of the fuselage where you really need that string. Interesting. An access fuselage that cracked right at the front of the square mast opening, like at the end of the square mass opening. Yeah. I was wondering, I guess it makes it more inter compatible to have that square opening, but I was thinking, wouldn't it make more sense to have that mass opening in the shape of the mass, like the then out to back in front so that you have more material around the mask, without having a square rear end on the mass, if you just put the master directly into the fuselage, it would make it stronger between the mass and the few sizes. Yeah. I'm not an expert on structure. Someone smarter than me would know more, but It's probably better not to have sharp corners on your mask. Insert, I guess it just makes sense. If you want to switch between a carbon mass and an aluminum mass or whatever, or different size masks. Cause if you had, if you add the profiles of mass and you could only use that one mass with the fuselage, I guess so that, I think that's the main reason why they're doing that. Yeah. And it's a pretty good way to, I think these are based off of whatever cuddle or pro ball pro box insert. So it's a well-proven design. So what about wings? What have you learned about wing design? So yeah, these are tails that is for signature. These both were based off of a pale that I hand shaped and cleaned up the profile and cleaned it up a lot. But I was riding the stealth of the truck a lot of the time made  and would core carbon lay up Hills that I really liked and were awesome with those foils. And yeah, I base these off of it. There they go really good on the Palm itself, especially it's very similar except for the tips, right? Yeah, they are very similar. This one has a little more span and tips. I made it basically for the one 65 all the trough and this one was pretty much made for the one 75. And so I find the angles and everything like that, the wingtips were needed because the the high aspect links, just like a little bit more stability also because of the math, the different, there's a difference in math placement between the two foil, for people that don't know that much about oil tales. I always stay like that. Those tips are almost like fins on a board. It gives you like directional stability and having a flatter, you, it just makes the tail more loose, like having basically smaller fins or you can slide out the tail almost like you're saying. Yeah, you can turn on the mask instead of doing that. The other thing I really paid attention to when doing tips like this cause I've got a few tails is I wanted to make the tips thin enough and small enough that at low speed you can still pivot and stall the tips out or walk, wash them out. And so at low speed coming up the face, you can still pivot the turn, but going fast, they would lock in. So I made them thin and low cord and pretty vertical. Yeah, low drag probably. Aren't so good for pumping. Nice. Okay. What about front winks? So front wings, these are a bunch of a bunch different wings, but I worked on with Neil pride. Some of these made it to production. Some of these didn't for example, this is the XXL 2300 these are both 17 hundreds, but with different aspect ratios, small, medium, large, extra large. And this is super interesting and this is where I learned most of my, a lot of my idea of how I should design foil and how to do, center connection. It helped me a lot. And these are the pills impressive that you're already doing all this stuff at your age. I can only imagine where you're going to go from there. What are your plans in the future in terms of that kind of stuff? Do you have any professional aspirations to become an engineer or design like designer? What is, what are your plans? For now, I'm pretty happy. I get to, delve super deep into design and I get to surf every day while I'm young and living in Hawaii. So right now I'm pretty happy, but in the future it would be nice to do something other than, because I'm from the surf industry and it would be nice to go to school and further explore this kind of path. It seems like to me, it seems like you're doing fine teaching yourself. And for things like, in the water, the foiling and winging, it's so much more like Rob widow was saying too it's more about the feel and, you can have the scientific theories to explain it afterwards, but really without the, trying it and feeling it out and trying to figure out what, how, what works and what doesn't work actually in the water, you don't really know what's going to work or not until you try it. Really. Yeah. So that's what I've been getting into recently is first I went super deep into like simulation and trying to predict how these things work, but. Some of the results I got didn't match up with what I felt in the water. So I've been slowly climbing my way back to finding, okay, this is what happens on the computer. And this is what I feel in the water. And ideally I want to be able to predict everything on the computer and run through designs. And so in the last month or so I've been getting closer and closer to doing that. It's really hard and I definitely am not an expert on it. By any means, pretty impressive. I don't know if you're not an expert. I don't know who is. And then you also design boards, right? Like you said, you do some board designs and then you work with Mark Rapa horse. He builds them for you basically. Yeah. Huge. Thank you at the marker up. He's amazing. His construction is unmatched so far, but I'll share my screen again. So these are some old downwind boards I prototyped. So this is one that actually came out. You could probably feel my Instagram page. It's a blue board, white stripes big step six. So by 20, I think it's 25. And this is what I, this is the first design. I was like super psyched on it on a fucking deck. But there's the practical limitations to making this, like the thickness of the blanks you need. And so I ended up making this, tried some interesting stuff with the rocker and it worked really well. And it led me to my, my, my more recent board with the pin tail because this board, if there's two, I found there's two ways to get it to wave. Now you can either pull up paddle and glide into them, or you can move the board a lot. It's pumped into them, right? And this board did insane for gliding into waves. And I found it worked really well, pronoun winning because you don't have the ability to pump up on the flow. But stand up, I had a hard time because of all this volume and with the Mattel and also lower order, it was hard to get it up on the foil. What's the bottom design on this one? Like the bottom shape. It's pretty flat. I checked some interesting stuff on the rocker. There's a rapper. Is, there's a concave here in the center, rockers different from the rail rocker. Yeah. The bottom is actually, this is actually the bottom surface of an airfoil. And you're saying that because the, because it's flat and straight on the bottom and is good for gliding in, but not as good for pumping into pumping up onto the foil. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And I can see it could be fixed with more rocker in the tail, but then at planting speeds, it really doesn't that rocket tends to stick. And the takeoff speeds for getting to downwind are into the planting speed. So you can't have that. And it ended up with my pin tail design, which still can be improved, but I have basically dead flat rock throughout the tail. So it can release in plaintiff at speed, but not a lot of surface area or volume in the tail. So it can still move and pump on the foil. I see. So you're keeping the bottom flat, but just by having a narrow tail, it allows you to like hop on, hop up on the foil easier. Yeah. And I think Dave designed to probably have a more refined version of this. But this, the board of, and writing works really well. And the other cool thing is because there's so little material and the nose and tail it reduces your swing weight a lot and it changes the center of gravity of the board. So on this Pentel board, I pretty much stand in the dead in the center. And so there's no notes in front of you for that. So you might the ride purely like a five, four. So next board is probably gonna be a six, four. Instead of a six and 22 wide or something. So that's for downwind foiling. What about wink, foil board design, like what's what, w how does it differ from stand-up and foil board design? What kind of boards do you design, or you it's funny because pretty, you could pretty much get anything up on foil, but it really matters in light wind. What I found is you are not my pin tail board and you want, or you don't want any of my stand-up boards, because they're hard. For some reason, they're hard to steer it's something with the outline. And then the little rocker makes them, like, when you in the parent planning transition zone or speed, they'll do opposite fearing like a boat, or like a race standup board. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's probably a low nose rocker or something, but yeah, definitely avoid that. And my pin tail board, so much area in the nodes versus the tail, but the note pushes down, going up wind, and you need to compensate for that with extra pill paling angle. You're saying when you're up on the foil, having that chat knows has like more drag in the wind, basically. Yeah. Okay. Big time. If you designed a, have you designed a board that's just for wing foiling or what would the design specs would be on a wing for a bomb? Pretty much just take your on board and scale it up. Like direct, like you can scale all dimensions up to five foot and it's perfectly, if you just had one wing board for you that you can use in light, wind and all wind conditions, like what size and volume do you think would be good that you would use right now? I guess 22 to 24 wide and 70, 75 liters. Sorry.  bye bye. So 20 to 24, probably 75 liters. Oh, wow. That's pretty similar to what I have four sticks, liters, bottom shape. Super simple, no concave, no, nothing special, no steps, no concave, just as simple as possible because that I found that gets you up really fast. I like, and Dave Kalama talked about it too, but there's that theory that the con the convex shapes just releases from the water easier, like the word, when it comes off the water just slides off of it versus concaves and tight edges. Sometimes the water can stick to it or like the surface tension of the water gets stuck on the, on those hard edges, yeah. The other thing with the wing board is sometimes like when you touch down, a lot of the times you're touching down at a weird angle to chop and concave and sharp edges in the front, instead of just going through it we'll create a lift in some direction and shoot you off one way or another. So yeah, simple bottoms like convex or concave works. I, I totally agree with that, but obviously there's two schools of thought here. Like a lot of the prone boards have a lot of a lot of concaves and sharp edges and stuff. And I guess, there, there's gotta be some advantage to that. I I guess it has more lifts at lower speeds creates more lift, but yeah, like I said, there's definitely downsides. So it's so what's your, yeah. As far as my experience riding them, I haven't found any advantages. But they look really cool and they do make a lot of lifts at low speed. Yeah. Does it help a little bit with the takeoff or I guess on balanced, do you think don't think it's worth it to have all those concaves and hard edges, personally, I don't think it's worth it. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone who does it because done right. They can work really well. Yeah, something that's really helped me when I, setting up the board, was when you said, like you, you check your, basically the thickest part of the foil. Do you have your board upside down? If you lift up the board by the foil, the thickest part of the front wing profile, then it should, the board should be pretty much flat and balanced. So I thought that was really helpful. And then, it's interesting too, because sometimes different wings like have an access for an, I changed from the seven 60 to the eight, 10, and the, for some reason, like the distance of that profile is so much different that after go from the seven, 10 is like at the front of my box and on the eight, the seven 60, sorry. And then on the eight, 10, it's all the way in the back, so it's like a big, pretty big difference where the foil is located in terms of, keeping my feet in the same position, the same foot strap positions. Yeah. The biggest part of that is, is keeping your, it keeps your front wing in the same position. So they probably have different distances between the front wing and the mask. So the mask will move, but the frontline stays in the same spot. And and then I was thinking about why it is that it works well like that. And then I guess when you're when you're pumping and unwavering, the board by itself is balanced on, on the foil. So it's not like it wants to like nose dive or stall or whatever, even if you completely on way the board will be sitting there and gliding. But my, my kind of school of thought around it is ideally you want the board to fly pretty neutral as far as the pressure. And you want that foot pressure to be consistent across all, all speed. You want it to be consistent across if you're in a turn or if you're going straight or if you're pumping. So what doing that does is it puts the center of gravity of the board over the center of lift of the wing. And that means when you put it in a turn and put some extra T4 on it or yeah, mainly if you put it into the turn with that extra G force, it won't change the balance. If it's nose heavy and you put it in a turn. That center of gravity, push, push down and pull your nose into the water. And if it's too far back, it'll do the opposite and pull you out of the water. And so that's a baseline and depending on, I always pick a tool with me in the water and change it a little bit, depending on how the foil students, but a big difference. Something that I noticed for myself, like when I used to just stand up paddle surf or pro surf, I used to have my back foot a little bit more forward, but then when I started wind foiling, my back leg always got so tired from always putting more pressure on my back foot. And so what I started doing was putting my back foot further and further back. So basically now I have my feet. So the center of lift of that foil underneath me is right between my feet. And I've got just equal pressure on both feet and that's something I learned from wing foiling. And now I also do, when I'm Santa filing, I always have that same foot position just because it's way more comfortable and efficient. Is that kinda how you balance out too, or? Yeah. And it's, if you watch a lot of my clips or watch. I'm usually sometimes my back sits way in front of the master. And you think, Oh, that's weird. Most people have their backs up behind the mask, but my front foot is really far back too. So I try and keep my center of gravity always right over the front line. And if he can see it I just got them downwind clip. There's a good video clip. Let's click play one of these. So is the Harbor one of your favorite spots on Maui or Harvard? A pretty good spot. Flailing ruined me. So pier one is my favorite spot now, but just directly outside the Harbor, but there's also a spot on the West side. That's really fun. Foco right off the line of sight of poco. And that's. That's one of my favorite waves ever. It's crazy. That's obviously an older footage and the board looks so huge compared to what you're writing now. Yeah. I really liked that part though. Sometimes I'm actually going to bigger boards now. That's a, FORO that's on the screen. That's a four by 20 now I'm writing a 42 by 19 and my next board is a four, six 18.5. And just to be able to catch the wave easier and paddle back out easier. What's the idea behind going a little bit longer. Again, is. Think bigger waves. I want, I live on the North shore of Mallee and most of the spots in the winter are a bit bigger than, and I want to paddle into my, on my 42. And the other thing is hitting of pitting the whitewater or getting critical and critical sections of the wave. My 42 has a nice rocker curve, but it doesn't have enough rocker. So I basically on my four six, I just extended that rocker curve to the most of the board. Same, but I have a little bit extra nose for recovery mostly. And yeah. So when you put it in, in a head high bit of foam or the lip, it doesn't really care. Like you can recover weight easier. So actually that's another question I had for you on the rocker, like people have been playing around with the shims underneath the mass blatant stuff like that. And it's basically, you can put a little bit of rocker in the board and get the little bit of that, is just, what's your, what is your feeling? And I guess it depends on the foil of course too. And do you like to have the mass or the plate completely parallel to the bottom of the board? Or do you like to have it like a slight rocker to it and then the tail that, where the manual, most of. I do most of it in the doc with the referee, my board. But I know people are put, are going like really, almost negative with their Shem. So that's interesting. And I think it works really well on smaller waves where your front wings running a higher angle of attack on big, I found on small waves. I liked boards with lower, almost parallel angle between the foil and the deck or the box and the deck and on bigger waves. I like a lot more like my front foot up a bit. Yeah. Like to me especially when you're going faster if like that having that negative angle helps with it's a little scare. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're going fast. And especially like on it, like if you're toying in or going fast and you have that, the nose is pointed down a little bit, as soon as you touch down just slightly, you done. It's like your board sucks down when your nose down. Yeah. Yeah. So it depends on the wave. And I, I just have my boards have a really light tail rock. I can always show the front wing too. This is my setup. It lets me. Shit in the front wing to different angles. So that's useful. Yeah. So I was going to ask about that too. So do you, I guess the wing designs you have are mostly like, where the front wing screws flat onto the fuselage with two or three screws. And then so it's basically just the screws holding the, holding it down against that flat area. Do you ever have issues with it, like loosening up or like how do you keep those screws completely tighten and keep it from having any play? I use about I they're big torque screws and I use probably six, six inch lever and just crank them way too tight. But the reason I use that connection is the limitation of how I build the wing. I make the wings out of a solid panel with carbon and on a three axis CNC machine. So there's not a good way to get enough thickness in the connection area or go in from the side to make a male-female connection. So the on top kind of works really well. For example, I just made the swing fit, active case series. This is for the access case series and that's a similar kind of fuselage work. Just it just bolts right on top. And the reason I couldn't do like the black series or their old sq floss is just because it's too thick for my panel. The wing, the wings are too thick and the connections too thick. So this is the only thing that would let me get thin enough. Yeah. You're going super thin with your foot. For design sounds crazy for us for higher speeds, right? That's basically less drag. Is that the idea behind it or, yeah, you do. You do sacrifice a little at super low speed. But I, if you use the right foil section, you don't sacrifice that much. So do you on NASA foil sections or how do you use this, modify them or what you come up with your first sections? I designed my own sections, just trial and error. What works for you and no using trailers, inverse design. So I specified the surface velocity of the fluid over, over the top and bottom of the wing basically. And that'll give you your shape. Wow. The maximum velocity you can fly at with your wings. Like that 800 probably top, it has a low tops size. It probably pops out at 39. Just because it's a fairly blunt foil, but the good thing is with that one, it's super stable until that speed. So I actually, I've never hit the tough beat on it. I have one right here, 600 insanely fast, and it's basically a super, super fan. So what's the idea behind having that pointy tip on the front? It looks like a, like an airplane, the fuselage being too long for the quarter. I need to get it in. I need to set it in the right spot and otherwise I would end up with kind of an ugly front connection. Yeah. So the tip it's not like it's just to make up for the length of the few slides that either the design. Yeah. Yeah. If you're going really fast like the America's cup boats use it, it's called a what is it called? Where it raises keeps the pressure more, even around that connection. And it reduces cavitation around that, around the interface of multiple wings, but I'm not going fast enough and I'm not designing it to do that. He droves. Do you put the hydro into your wing a little bit or do you just keep pretty limited? This one has some freedom. Very slight dihedral on the center. Oh yeah. I've got some freedom with winglets. And the winglets on, these are more for a, more like a bit of a locked in feeling because if you go dead flat, it can, it gets washy sometimes. So you can play with changing your oil sections at the clip you can play with changing your like winglets or a neutral up a tip. Or you can do some fun stuff with twists to get a bit more of a locked feel. It's slightly turned up wingtips. Is that so you can breach the foil easier in terms? Yeah, it makes a really big difference in, in breaching terms. It's way gentler and upward one tip what you breached breaches tip at a lower angle. So on a following, in a turn, you can breach it. It doesn't matter if you have a wind load or not, but if you're a little straighter up, so like this will breach, but like this you want a little bit of a wingless if you're super worried about. Okay. Just so the tip comes out first and the, and disrupts the water surface less. I've found the angle between the wing tip and the water surface is super important. So the more perpendicular they are, the general area of a wingtip reach you'll have in general for section makes a huge difference. For example, like the oil foil section is insane for breaching. Like you'd never feel it. Yeah. The velocity across the top surface is really consistent. There's no pressure spikes and it's pretty impressive. So it turns out my buddy Derek comma does on the psyche on the geo and then those go for wings. Is this amazing? Like how are you coming out? Yeah, cool. I'm having a lot of fun on this. That's super interesting. I could just talk about design this hole for a couple of hours, but I guess we should probably move on to some other things as well. I don't know. I think everyone that's listening is going to be super interested in this as well, but let's talk a little bit about a wing design. In terms of, wing foiling wings, it's, this is supposed to be a wing foiling show more than anything, but what's your experience? What kind of wings have you tried and what do you like the best and so on? So I. I work with with a winged pretty talented wing designer. And so get to try a lot of prototypes from, for a lot of different brands and a lot of different materials and styles and handle them all kinds of stuff. And it seems like they're going to more and more attention to the Cathy of flutter shape a stiffer shape, and you can get a big increase in speed and efficiency from that. So I really like having you like having a flatter wing shape, less profile, basically. Yeah, definitely. A flatter profiles are nice just because the apparent wind angles they can handle it. It makes it nice for the wind or going up wind have really high are tight angles. It doesn't let her as much when you're going at a tight angle, yeah. Another thing is stability. I'm not an expert on wing design, but having a stable wing that's that, that flies neutral and wouldn't be powered is it's pretty important. And makes a lot easier. So I've been liking the wing rides and the emphasis. I tried some PPC stuff that's insane. And also the BRM. I really love the BRM wing. I think tested and helped with the design and so on. The BRM. Yeah. So talk about the BRM. What's what makes that one special? So my dad's had a BRM link for a long time now and the way they eat Gus is super impressive. That's what kind of surprised me the most when I wrote it in gusta conditions, it's just smoothed out everything. Your power is really consistent and they can handle high speed, low wingspan sense for surfing too. I haven't tried the wings. What is it about it that you think makes it work like that? Or what are the design features that you think work well on the BRM? They're pretty low aspects. That probably helped I really don't know. The handles are super solid pretty low flex and they don't have any windows, so it's a really consistent reaction or material across the canopy. Personally, too, like after trying wings without windows, I like it, I like not having a window, but what's your take on that windows versus no windows? That's always one of those big arguments. If you're riding around a lot of people especially a lot of beginners use the windows or windows really nice. Being able to easily check your tack, like before you do attacker drive is great. I tend to ride like at hook Keepa where there's not a ton of people and there's a clear rotation, so I prefer window windows. Yeah, it's also better for packing them up and you don't have to worry about creasing it and so on. And a lighter way. And I don't know, there's a lot of dependencies to not having a window, but yeah, definitely the safety aspect. Although I find that it's pretty easy to just look under your wing, right? You just lift it up a little bit and it is, the best windows I've tried are on the new Cabrina wing. The windows are massive. They're really the first one or one of the first ones that you can actually, you can see everything through. Yeah. One thing I really like about the wing is the handles. It's a soft handle, but you have probably a good 10, 12 inches to move your hand around. And that's really nice for adjusting to different conditions and different kinds of writing. Like a boom. Yeah. Having the longer handles, it does help with tacking and stuff like that. Cause you can put in right next to the other one and stuff, but do you find that sometimes the longer handles have a little bit more give so there's less control with your risks? Do you find that at all? Or? Yeah, I do. And some of the newer styles that I've handled I've tried or are stiffer and have a lot less of that you definitely have more control. The one thing I really like about booms is in the last week, I've started riding with a harness and having a boom is really nice to hear if you're riding with a harness and harness line. I've never tried harness before, but like Alan cages talked about it and I'm interested in trying it. I definitely would do want to try it out. Yeah, it's nice. Because I started doing it because I've been doing up winners from  on Maui and I don't know how many miles that is probably five miles upwind and it was just, it just destroys your arms and your hands. So it's nice to have something stick a load off, so was this from your knee when you had your knee surgery? Ooh. When did I have my knee surgery? Yeah, that's uh, right after I, I injured it. I've done that a few times. I originally did it surfing. Just went up for a top turn and busted. My knee was out for a few weeks. Doctor said after probably three weeks, he was like, Oh, you're good. You should be good to go back in the water third way of doing it again. So without, for awhile after that did a ton of PT came back, was good for a few months. I think I did it again in boarding. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear what you said. What was the injury? Originally, so that the injury originally was from surfing. I went through a tough tournament, dislocated my kneecap. So my knee cap went from the center all the way to the, basically the outside side of my knee. Like from overextending it backwards or like what happened? Like how did it happen? Not really sure. After all the x-rays and stuff, it seemed like just, it's just like a genetic thing. Like my kneecap far off, far off to the side, especially on my back knee, which got stressed a lot from surfing that kind of tuck knee position you do surfing. It's not good for your knee. So it's basically kneecap slips off the front of the knee. Is that what happened? Like sideways it slipped. So if this is the top of your knee and you're looking from the front or from the bottom of your leg, it's slipped off to the side. Outside of uni to the outside. And there's just a little a little whatever ligament holding that in as well as your quad. But when that happened or the ligaments probably stretched the first few times, and then the last few, it probably broke. I know in the last one it was broken. And then, so the surgery, they had to replace that ligament or, yeah, the surgery is called an MPFL reconstruction and or replacements. And there's two ways to do it. Where the one way they'll take some of your hamstring and replace that ligament with your hamstring. And the other one is where they take a cadaver from an Achilles or a hamstring and do the same thing. And luckily I got the cadaver. The cadaver is really strong. It's like the third and put it in a good way. It's like upgrading from accomplish to a jaws leaf. So my old ligament, like on my left knee is it's accomplished and the other one is the job. So it's pretty cool. And it's it's an amazing surgery. You can actually it's full weight bearing 45 minutes after. Wow. Pretty until you had to recover for a while. And yeah, it took us probably a week to get walking again or walking comfortably. And what'd you say you were hunting back to a hundred percent now. Like he can do everything. Yeah. I'm at least 95%. Now your quad does a lot of work and keeping, keeping your kneecap stable. And as long as you, you pay close attention to how tired or exhausted your quad is. And I've been doing like yoga and using the foam roller as the ways of managing, managing it, managing my leg and keeping everything stretched out. And it's a good way. Good way to recovery. Yeah, definitely. Sorry, go ahead. That experience and doing that a few times definitely taught me a lot about paying attention to my body and knowing when to stop. I think that's a valuable lesson to learn knowing how to recover, because when my age, like I'm 53 and it takes a lot longer to recover from stuff like that. So it's good that figuring it out at your age. Yeah. There's been a few sketchy moments, but the last probably few months have been awesome. Nice. So in terms of other, do you do other legs, sports cross-training hobbies other than foiling and water sports and so on? Not too much. I tried keep a good variety of foiling. I've been doing yoga recently. That's actually been super fun, but yeah, occasionally I'll go mountain biking. That's a good bit of cross train. Okay. Do you have a routine that you follow every morning or like what's a typical day in your life? Starting when you get up out of bed? Nah, I don't have a, I don't have a super, super strict routine, but generally I wake up and I do a little bit of stretching in the morning. I do maybe a little bit of rolling depending on the amount. Depends on how I feel. And then. Whenever you either try and get a good breakfast and do some work shift, shift tales, or do some designing. And then I usually go for an afternoon session. So then your busy time for getting some mornings, generally my busy time and also late at night, I do a lot of computer work. So most of my designing stuff is after dinner. So when you work on the computer and you're really into something and like how long will you stay up and work on your computer? Are you like an all night? It depends. I try if I'm really into it. I try and go to bed before at 12 I'm like, okay, I got it. I got to stop now. But sometimes I'll get really into it. Especially if I have a big project I'm working on or make a breakthrough and I'll go 10 to 14 hours just locked in on the computer. You're more like an, you get creative at night and in the nighttime, huh? Yeah. For example, a foil I just designed, I spent. Probably 10 hours a day straight for a week, just like on it, super focused remember in the future, like what, where do you see wing foiling or foiling going? And do you have any new ideas or new projects that you're working on? Anything you can share stuff that's coming in the future or things you, you can imagine or see for the future? Yeah. So my, my favorite part of wing foiling is probably the accessibility of it. And that you can get so many people in the water learning to fail, going fast, having a ton of fun, and you can do it in so many places. I like, I'm at the Harbor a lot and that's the Mecca on Maui for learning to win foil. It's cool to see entire families that, that sometimes don't even surf. And I've never done a wind sport getting up and you can watch them improve. And in two weeks they're up and going up land and having a blast. It's definitely pretty cool. This video is at the Harbor, right? Yeah, this is pretty cool. Where you're handing from the, doing a takeoff from the boat ramp and then grabbing the wing on your way out. Talk a little bit about why that was funny. I showed up one day with my weighing I'll to go. I think I just got that sale. And it was way too light to go out. But luckily I ran into Scott Mackey and Jason Hall and I was like, Hey Scott, can you start at the end of the pier and hold my way. Instead of beat started managed to somehow make it and actually thought that was a super fun session. Yeah. This looks like you just had to get out to the wind line, pump out to the wind lane and then it was windy enough out there. Yeah, it was probably like 15 that day and back on the generation. One way. That was pretty light women. Yeah. That's cool. Let's see. Oh, this one. This is cool. People talk about that one a lot. That was a fun session out on a board of Sean. It looks like your friend is almost on the nose of the boredom. Yeah. He had an old belly board. They put some foil tracks then. And I forgot how long it was. I think it was a two foot board. So the front of my front foot was basically off the edge and my back foot was pretty much the same. And it was just like a good, consistent day out a thousand peaks. And later that day I had my longest drive ever. That must be pretty hard to take off on that board though, right? Yeah. The only you can't catch the wave on it pretty much. So you have to beat you started, Oh, that's what you did. What was the beach started? That was the only way I could get it up on foil is the beach start. But this video is a little deceiving. Like people are like, Oh my God, how do you pump that far for that long on the inside. There's a rock wall and there's backwash coming off the wall. And so most of the way out, or pretty much all the way up back to the peak, you can get a decent backwash of so the whole time like pumping, I was less focused on my pumping efficiency and more focused on all right. How do I stay in the power of this tiny little backwash wave. Cool. So you basically time your kick-out with trying to find the pump. That's going back out again to take you back out. Yeah. And one thing that saves a lot of energy pumping back out into a wave is trying to stop pumping super early and glide into the wave. I catch myself a lot pumping all the way up until I'm going up the face and then turning when really I should be stopping 30 feet, 15, 30 feet before. And just gliding into it because then once you turn, you create more lift and then once you're on the face, then you don't. Yeah, I'll get the part, you can save a good three or four pounds. Interesting. I find like when I first started connecting ways that if I stopped pumping too early or turned too early on the wave, then I was basically drop off before I got on the wave. So it's kinda, you do want turn pretty high on that. So the other thing was pumping is staying as high as possible on your mask because by thing as high as possible, you store you story or your gravitational energy and you ranked in the possible glide slope and your wings also more efficient. Plus the surface. But if you come into doing that really high on your math, you can use that all that gravitational energy you've stored to collide into the wave. And then once you're on the wave, you have enough power to bring it back up again. Yeah. That makes sense. And so I guess that's the reason why you do do those kinds of short, quick pumps. So you don't like, you basically keep the mass pretty high out of the water and the foil closer to the surface. Yeah. Part of the short, quick pumps is they work really well from a body mechanics point where by changing how short, quick or long, like a shorter long your pumps are, you can stress your body in different ways. So a really long pump will be easier on your muscles but your heart and your lungs will work harder. The short pump are harder on your muscles, but don't stress your heart or lungs as much. So explain why do you think the foil creates more? It seems like the foil creates more lift when it's close to the water surface. Is it, or is it, is the reason why it's more efficient because there's less mass than the water and has less drag or is it because it just creates more lift when it's close to the surface? What's the, I don't have a solid answer on it, but I have a few theories. So one of them only left master the water that makes a big difference to you are moving, the foil is moving less water around itself, right? So th the low pressure side of the foil makes a lot of the lifts and it pulls a lot of water in that water column, above it down to make that lift. And by being closer to the surface, there's less water available to pull. And so before I was actually doing less work and making less drag I don't think you're making any more lifts, but you're definitely making less dry. The other part of it is by bringing your foil close to the surface. This is this the part I'm really not sure about this. You could be end plating the tip vortex, especially on really flat foils where. There, there might be some kind of interaction with the wingtip Portex and the surface of the water that reduces it. I see. So basically you, because you're closer to the surface, there's less room for it to create turbulence basically on the table. Yeah. I'm not sure about that because if you're really close to the surface that actually creates a wave and that could use more energy than I'm not sure about it, but definitely moving less water around appending, less water or less mass in the water. It makes a difference. Interesting. Yeah. I've been trying to figure out why that works. I've also noticed that there's definitely a ground effect. If you're pumping over shallow reef and the Reese right underneath you, you can go to push it. Yeah. Yeah. Something I do a lot winging is especially if there's a Sandy beach is go really fast towards shore and put the foil in six inches of water and try and glide down the beach as far as possible. So you got to stay super high and almost touch your foil. The bottom and see how far you can glide in ground effect only works for the flight wings. So generally I don't do it in six inches of water, but we have a spot where you have to go over the shallow reef to go come in, and and definitely, yeah, you feel like basically, even that lower speeds, you just got more lift off the foil when you're right up right over the grief. Yeah. I think the general rule on plans is that if you're within half your wingspan from the ground as a real effect or a noticeable effect, we can have your wingspan. So how long is this video? This is like a half minutes and you're still flying. It's amazing. I guess that was the dog that can't believe his eyes. Huh? G P is hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. The AI, if you haven't seen this video, you got to listen to the content comments commentary. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I almost want them to just hire the film and commentate on it because it's great. So hard to see this, but yeah. So yeah, so I actually started passing the wing behind my back when I'm going upwind on the waves, but I guess you're going downwind and then you're passing it in front of you on a bottom turn. So yeah. Talk a little bit about that. The technique. Yeah. It's mostly, I mostly do it. To control my upper body rotation. So by, by passing it to my front hand on the bottom, turn it left my shoulders, open up towards the face of the wave. And by switching it to my backhand on the top turn, I can actually twist my body around and point my front arm more far, farther, backwards. And more recently I've been, I've been using the wings power and leverage through turns. And my limitation is still when I do that I'm still working on it, but I like using the power of the wing on the top turn. But then your wing is still on your front hand. So on the way down and you have to switch it and open your hands up again, and it's hard to get your speed. You need a bunch of speed to get out in front of the wave for your next bottom term. So it's in progress to get some video of that soon. Let's talk a little bit about wing size. Okay. Do you what wing size do you like to use? Do you like to use a bigger wing for jumping or do you like to use a smaller wing for handling or what's I use, I have a two, five. I love when it's nuking and I have a bunch of sizes, but pretty much 99% of the time I use my two, five, or my three, five and the two fives. Great. But hard to get up, you need a seriously. And with the three, five, I can get a prone and probably 18 knots and I can get up, stand up in six months. Yeah. I guess probably you're always trying to, my theory is always try to use the smallest swing I can get up on, basically, because once you're up, you don't really need much of much wing size. Recently I found I don't need anything bigger than a three, five, three, five will get me up in the lowest wind. My foil can fly in. Which is about how many nights would you say six nights with the three, five wing? It's funny. Cause there was Rob whittle was saying that he likes to use like either a three more three meter for me here in that four meters is the biggest he uses now. And he can get up and tend to 12 knots. And there was a bunch of people that were commenting that's impossible and blah, blah, blah. But I have to agree that you can get up with a small wing and pretty light winds. Sometimes you might have to wait for a little gust or, and just really work at it. But once you're up, then you don't really don't need that much wing. It's really all dependent on your board. If you have a good board, you can get up with a much, much smaller wing and way less wins. So what kind of board is that you would use? I use my downwind stand up word. Didn't you say you need to have the planning speed to get that thing going. So you get it up to planning speed with a small way. Yeah. On my take off speeds, like eight, eight, nine miles an hour. But if I check in like when they get the different tailwind that probably lowers that about a four mile an hour. So a bigger tail wing or more angle on the tailwinds are both different funds okay. So a little bit thicker. Oh, okay. It's just a different, yeah. A different floor section and a little more cord. Interesting. So Lakeland like the front Wayne compared to the tail wing like in terms of, the effect it has on the foiling experience, like how would you compare it? Is it like 80, 20 or 70 30, or is it hard to start to hard to quantify? Steph would be 30 or 60. 40 is probably a a good number. Actually, no 70. So basically what I'm saying is, with the same front wing, about how much can you change it by changing the tail wing? It depends on how well tuned the rest of your setup is, but I'd probably give 50% or 60% till your full board box placement. And you're telling to me interesting. Wow. Yeah, those are good. It really makes a difference. Like it doesn't matter what frontline you're on. It'll ride good. If you're killing a student. And you're in, it's in the right spot on the board. And if it's off, then you're gonna, no matter what front line you're on, you're going to have a really hard time writing. Okay. I think we're going super long, but it's super interesting to me, so I'm sure other people will find it interesting as well. So I'm just going to keep going. So what was I going to say? Sorry. Oh, beginner. So if you have a friend that wants to learn how to wink foil, or you're taking out someone what are the, what are your tips? And what are some common mistakes people make and so on? So when I, every time I teach people first thing I do is put them on a reasonably sized foil, but put it all the way back in the box and further first few waves or for half of the first session or until they're comfortable have them take off and keep the board on the water, just have them keep the board on the water, ride, the wave like that don't even think about coming up. That'll get them. Wander their safety position and safely that's their safety safety move. They know how to keep it on the water. And the other thing that'll do is get them used to riding with a mask big mask at foil under their board. So once, once they're comfortable riding the board touched down on the water for the wave, then it's time to move the file forward a little bit and slowly start bringing it up on foil. It's nice to have a consistent way of the Harbor that, that, that is smooth water and decent power for a long time. And at least teach them a little bit beforehand. So they understand a little bit about how the field works, because that's another thing too, on the beach before they let them go in the wall. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. Wing handling on the beach is huge. A big problem I see is people try and control the wind too much. Really what you want is your front arm is your anchor and your back arm does most of the control and just the weight of your back arm will keep the wing fine. So I, I teach people the way I learned cutting, which is sit on the beach and learn how to put and hold the wing in different positions. One, o'clock three, o'clock, two o'clock, one, o'clock 12 o'clock in the wind, the window. And and vary the power and just get comfortable and familiar with it before getting in the water. Because for a lot of people swinging they're getting on the foil board for the first time too. And it's a totally unfamiliar space where you're not comfortable with any part of it. And having some baseline understanding, and experience and building a tiny bit of muscle memory. We'll make a big improvement in their learning. It is said that he puts people on a, on the old wind surf board with the daggerboard in the middle, and then he just makes, and once they can go back and forth and stay up when then they're ready to go try the foil. And that's how he does it. And I've also heard people say that they put people on the board and just take the foil, the wings off the foil. So it's just the mask. So they can't busy, they can foil, but the mass has enough. It's like almost like a dagger board because it keeps you from drifting too much. So I thought that was a good idea. I've never tried it, but that's a good idea. Those are all good ideas taking the wings off the mask and make it a lot less stable though. So it would be interesting to make something that would bring that stability back almost like a keel for it. Just use it in Oakland. What if you took off the tail wing, but then would make it just I'll take off just the front link. Could work take off the front wing and the front wing. Yeah, that could work. Or maybe use a really small wing that doesn't, this is not going to lift. Cause I think even if you tell people don't lift off the water, once they start going fast and hard to control it, keep it from them. Yeah. That's the other thing I do teaching surf foiling is I never put them on a really big front wing. The first time I put them on like a front wing I would surf on. So that if they do lift, not like they can bring it back down and it's, they can control it. They can handle it, they can handle it. But I think for learning to wing foil is definitely an advantage of using a bigger wing because you end up having it's more stable and you can fly slower at lower speeds and you can take your time through transitions and stuff. So once you're comfortable going in and out yeah. If you're buying a new foil, don't get a big foil that lifts at low speeds basically. That's, is that what you would advise as well for beginners? Yeah, just get something easy to ride. My advice and a good board at the board table board, right? I think the new phonetic boards look nice. It was real simple bottom. The customs are always nice, but almost shapes for third grade. A lot of stuff out there works. Yeah. The equipment is definitely improving a lot. Like just the second and third generations of the wings are so much better than what we survive in the beginning, yeah. Another thing, a lot of people on the beach asked me about packing. A lot of people have trouble packing attacking you. Yeah. The biggest thing I noticed and actually Allen could, he's taught me, taught me how to attack is people switch the, switch, their hands on the wing way too late and that, so they'll go into attack and forget and don't switch their hands. And then they end up falling backwards or there's too much drag so an attack. If you come in with a decent amount of speed, you can actually switch your hand super early. And by switching your hands and bringing the wing over your head, it'll force the rest of your body and foil to follow and keep you in control the whole time. And that actually usually does the trick for people. So if anybody out there is having trouble typing, switch your hands super early. Yeah. That's a good tip. Usually works. And then talking to my dad because he learned to pack on his own. And he said, riding behind people who are going attacking and watching as they do it really helps. Yeah. I think what I've learned too is you want to throw the wing over your head. And with, I think with the backhand before you let it go, you kinda throw it so that it tips over, so that when it, when you grab it on the other side, it's already in the right position, you don't have to like, bring it over to the other side. Yeah. I, when I pack, I always give my backhand a little like push right. And let the momentum over the wing bank it over. So that way, when you grab it on the other side, it's already in the right position, you got power right away. You don't have to like, bring it back into the power position. Yeah. Totally. Those are good tips. Yeah. What about for the foiling part of the turn, I guess you want to keep the foil high, but not too. Like when I started attacking, I noticed I over foiled a lot. I would breech, I would go into like too fast, too high, and then I would focus on the wing and I would just breech cause I was going too fast. So I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Just be comfortable with the foil and if you're comfortable breaching the tip. Of your waiting in thirds just a little bit, that'll help a lot because generally if you come into attack that the tip is going to come up a little bit I know just being comfortable and be comfortable with your drivers, be comfortable to be comfortable with your wing handling. And you should get it pretty fast. Yeah. Especially the front side tax, I find pretty easy, but the guy going backside is a little bit more tricky. Like when you have to throw it behind, grab it. Yeah. And then for the more advanced riders, if you want to get a better acceleration of your tax as you come through the wind and down use progressively more back foot pressure. If you come up, when you get back on the power, you want to be as high on the mask as possible, because then you can accelerate down the math and yeah. Your gravitational potential energy. That's a good pointer. I've noticed too. Like when I kick out of a wave and attack, kicking out, like once I get over the tip of the wave, I actually point

Sam Loader is the owner of the Pacific Paddle company in Auckland New Zealand and the designer of the PPC wing.   Interview transcript: Aloha it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, where I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. These are unrushed, long form, in-depth interviews, where I'm trying to learn not only about wing foiling technique and equipment, but also try to get a deeper understanding of the guests, their background, what inspires them and how they live their best life. This show is available on YouTube, where you get video, and also as a podcast in audio only, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app to listen to the long form interviews on the go. This show has a lot of video where I'm filming myself, wing foiling with a back mounted camera and people always ask questions about that. So just preemptively. I wanted to show you how I record it. If you can see this GoPro max camera, a 360 camera mounted on my back. And then afterwards I can edit it and show the footage from different angles. So it's a cool system. So this is a homemade harness windsurfing harness with Camera pole. These are also available commercially. So I'll put more information down below in the description. So check it out. If you have any questions about that. The last time I went on a trip off the Island of Oahu was to New Zealand in February, 2020. This was when the virus was raging in China and right while we're also opening a new shop and so on. So it was a crazy time for me, but I made it over there to visit with Dan Regan. Who's our New Zealand do planet distributor. Thanks so much for inviting me. And we went to a beautiful place called Paula Nui, where they had the Auckland paddle Fest. And that's where I met Sam loader who owns a business called Pacific paddle company or PPC. And we stayed in touch afterwards and he emailed me about this new wing he developed. So I was curious, he sent me a sample. I tried it. And, to be honest, I've tried most wings that are available on the market today. And I can honestly say that it's the favorite one I've tried so far, just the combination of a lightweight pot, very powerful for its size, easy handling, very neutral on the wave and just so many nice features that I like about it. So we talk a lot about the wing and the development. And so on in this video here, I'm also planning to make a detailed product review video that I'll post on a YouTube channel shortly, probably within a week or two. So stay tuned for that. And for now you can go to the link below or appear to get more information about the wing on our website. So without further ado, here's my next guest sound loader with PPC. All right. Sound loader, welcome to the Duke science show and stoked to have you. And it's been a while since I saw you I guess right before the pandemic we met and Paula Newey in New Zealand and he took me tow and foiling, which was awesome. So thanks for that as well. But let's talk a little bit first about your background, like where, where did you grow up and, how did you get into the whole watersports and your business and so on? So I grew up in Christchurch, which is South Island of New Zealand. And I actually grew up skiing. So in the mountains a little bit. So a lot of people don't know I've a ski background and competed a little bit and traveled and went to the U S and stuff. But yeah, The, I guess the whole water thing came about. We used to go to Fiji as a family just once a year, pretty lucky to do that. But my parents just said they couldn't get me out of the water from the start of the day to the end of the day. So I was, they were pretty much going down to the beach at night time and try to find me and whatever I was doing, trying to swim with fish or whatever. I don't know. I was just, I've just been addicted from those are my first kind of memories of just being addicted to the feeling of just being in the ocean and now I just kinda need it. And I'm actually a bit more comfortable in the ocean. Just like all of us, I think all of us addicts. Do you remember where that was in Fiji? Like I was there a couple of years. It was Castaway Island. That's where he needs to go. And it's kinda, it is, it's kinda near like tomato and Tavarua. Yeah, we actually went there by boat. Yeah. Castle. It's a beautiful spot. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Little family spot, but. And then obviously later in life, went back to Fiji and went to spots like the Moto and sift around. And I was just thinking, cause we went a year before the pandemic and I was just thinking how good the wing would have been over there. Surf in the morning, there's always a breeze that comes up. So it would have been pretty unreal having the wing then make star. Okay. And then can I ask you how old you are now? I'm 34 coming up. And then, so how did you get into business? Like how did that come up? Probably it's a long story. Went to uni. Didn't know what I wanted to do. Like probably most of us I just got an office job in Sydney and I thought this isn't me. Went back to New Zealand, saved up, did a bit of building. And saved up and bought a plane ticket to the U S and ended up working for a company over in the U S for a little bit, just a surf retailer, and then met up with some shapers and stuff in San Clemente. And yeah, I guess worked over there for a year, came back here. This was around the time of the boom. So I, yeah, just started learning to design and designing SOPs and yeah, I imported my first container. I think I was about 27 imported the first container to New Zealand. I think it was like 12, 2012, 2013. Those it's not even, yeah, it's the boom. This was growing really fast at that time, man. You obviously pretty. Pretty deep into it. I was pretty young obviously and sold the first container in two weeks. And I thought, what is this crazy? This is too easy sort of thing. I I've got another one, and then I just, and then it just went from one thing to another and I really just love designing boards and yeah. And now here we are quite a few products later. Things keep changing, which makes it interesting. So this is your website Pacific paddle company.com. And this is your shop that you so yeah, so that is the shop in Oakland. We've been here two years. I actually, I should have had a photo of my first shop was in it, it was in a paddock just with a couple of containers just when I started out. But I sold this premises a few years ago and we just made the move and never looked back really. Nice. So that's in tech Poon in New Zealand and it's it's 15 minutes down the road from me, so pretty good location, pretty good lifestyle. And then I guess when did you start getting into foiling and selling foil gear and all that kind of stuff? So I remember seeing foiling, I think it was like Kai and Connor and stuff. They were on the kind of rice boards cut in half and I just went that's ridiculous. I have to try that. So I think it was the first batch of foils that came to New Zealand. I think it was go for at the time. So I, I got my hands on one of those and yeah, I was just thinking how hard it was. I think it was a little, it was a little wing and I was just thinking I got dad to actually tell me behind the GSC. Cause I went straight out in the surf. Actually, I thought I can do this. And I just got rolled. So I got dead to, we hired a jet ski learned behind the ski and it was, yeah. And then from there on out, I dunno, just things have just been developing so fast. And now just the amount of different folds that I've tried. I'm sure you're the same. It's just being crazy, like development from where they began. I think it's so much easier now for anyone to pick it up. It was pretty hard back then. Small board, small wing, small everything, and yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I'm looking at your Instagram page here. It looks like you're deep into wing link. That's like your main thing, huh? Yeah. It's it probably needs to be, I probably need to maybe get some stand-up pedal action bag in there, but I dunno, it's just been. Yeah, it's just been so easy to, to wing lately, just with I dunno, it's just looking for waves as I still love surfing. Still love it, but winging is just so much easier. So I'm just enjoying the fact that you can just drive down the road two minutes from the shop and jump in the water and have a good to ask question. I'm sure you relate to being busy, having a shop and a brand. I was going to ask you cause you're probably one of the only guys that I know actually, who has the shop and the brand. So you it's a funny scenario sometimes to kind of way to cap or you think. Yeah, we're definitely similar in that respect. I've been in business since 1993, so it's been, like almost 30 years soon. And I learned over the years to delegate, try to delegate as much as they can. And definitely the shop is run runs more or less without me being there all the time. So I'm fortunate that way to be able to take care of that kind of the backend stuff. And then do you try to get in the water and so on? But your feet, like before you got into Wingfoot and you were definitely into more to stand up paddling and stand up surfing and all that. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And like looking at your store sales, like how does foiling compared to standard palling? I know for us, like during the whole pandemic standard paddling has been super popular and, people just getting in the water, especially entry level boards and equipment has been selling really well for us. How has it been? I think to be honest, it's been refreshing just with the whole foil thing taking off and new Zealand's quite a small market, so set pedal got pretty, pretty saturated pretty quickly here. Like everyone has this standup paddleboards may, maybe I'm not focusing on it that much anymore, but it just the largest sort of chains they bought in huge volumes of stand-up paddleboards and. I just I just love the fact, I think I've jumped on foiling because it's pretty hard to replicate. It's quite Dean Nicole, and it's kinda, I love that kind of specialized, part of it. And I feel like it's not going to get saturated too quickly, stand-up pedal did, but I'm definitely going to push stand up. I went for one the other day. Actually, there wasn't any wind, so it was, there were waves. So it was actually refreshing to get on a wave. You can't I dunno, you can't compare that feeling to winging, but yeah, it definitely looks, yeah, I was pretty sucked dominated wasn't I back in the, yeah same as I was in our shop, and we're still, for our shop, we still are, so it's a majority of our sales are still Santa paddle. Boards and, I still stand up paddle eye and I just go into racing and that kind of stuff. We have a training group that meets every Wednesday and so on. Still doing that, but it's definitely like my, when I have time to go in the water, I usually try to go on a windy day so I can go a wink. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You're going to go back up to the top here. Yeah, and I started standup foiling, but then once I got on a wing for a boy, just being able to be on the foil the whole time that to me made was so cool. Just to be able to be up on the foil for your whole session, pretty much not have to paddle it back out again, so that's definitely a draw, a wink flailing. Yeah. Yeah. And not have to use the jet ski so much. I think about it like. Everybody's got their own jet ski, holding onto the wing. You're just getting towed back out to the lineup. It's crazy. Yeah. And no pollution, no noise. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. I guess recently you had the America's cup in New Zealand and and I guess, tell us a little bit about that you had this posted this video of you guys foiling in between the races. Yeah, it's been honestly pretty crazy with all the America's cup stuff going on lately. I think we're pretty lucky to have all the best sailors in the world in one location, for the last year, two years it was, it's just been crazy. This, yeah. Okay. This year was a bit of a mission. So earlier in the, in this story, I meet the helicopter pilots. They came into the shop and they want some wind gifts or, yeah, like everybody's into this thing. So even the pilots filming this, filming these races yeah, we want to win. They came in the shop and then I just said, Oh, we might be out there. Cause there were a bunch of us. I grabbed Josh from the shop and an Olympic say it was snowy. And we just went out to the course and I just said, look, there's going to be a chance we're going to be out there. We might be near the course, if you want to do a sneaky little fly by maybe in between races. I just had my fingers crossed. They saw us, but they saw us and it was crazy. It's actually about five knots of wind here. I, so it was hard to get on the foil. It looks as though it's like windier than it is, but it's pretty light. So we all got up on the fall, luckily and heard the sound of the choppers come over. We couldn't really believe it that they were going to film us in between the race, but I guess it's cool because it was on the live YouTube feed. We get this kind of, it's pretty sweet getting this around the world. So yeah, they came over and like they were filming us super close. Like I've there was one pass. The chopper came over and I the wash from the blades, just seeing the wing and fly into my face and I just got nailed, but it was awesome. So we were, that was like an awesome memory. We got back to the boat ramp at an hour after dark and cause everybody's gotta go five knots back after the races. So there's all these sort of boats. It's crazy. Just the most amount of boats you can imagine just going five knots the whole way back to Auckland the city. So now that was that was it was a cool day. Yeah. Yeah there's, those sailboats are just amazing. And I guess they're really driving the technology of the whole foiling technology and computer science and all that kind of stuff for it. It's really amazing stuff that they're doing and the amount of money they're spending on it too. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, I was talking to the American magic guys. A couple of them. I shouldn't say this. I think they spend up to about, I think 150 million and, they do a couple of races and are out and it's pretty brutal. So I got pretty as I was gutted at the time for them. Cause I got to know them pretty well, quite a few of the silence for American magic and yeah, it was just outside of the house actually when I put the hall through the boat. So yeah, it just goes to show the gear is. Really pushing the limit and that, that close to breaking everything. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Pull that was pulled goodness. And so he's the tremor for American magic. So he stands beside Dean Barker. Who's this, who's the helmsmen. And he's been like, as soon as they're out of the cup he's been like winging every day. I think he just takes me just then he came for a win. So it will be all these guys are temporarily unemployed, so they, it's pretty, pretty cool to see. When he like every single opportunity. That's awesome. Yeah. So a little backstory. Like we met and stayed in touch, and then you had emailed me like that you're coming out with your own wings and if I wanted to try one, so I said, sure. Send me a sample to test. And then I got it and I was really impressed. It's the, it was my favorite wing. I've tried so far and I've tried a lot of different wings just as really nice handling and smooth power and has that lofty feel, and is this a great wing? So congratulations on that. And I've seen a bunch of footage of myself. Using the way the PPC Wayne, this is my friend, Jeff doing a one-handed jump, but a lot of this is shot with a GoPro max. That's mounted on a pole on my back. But yeah, so I just wanted to ask you a little bit about the, the whole process of making your own wing design and, the how you, the whole process of doing that, and how he came up with that design. Yeah. Again, long it's a bef the wings came out and it was, I think it was yeah. 2000. Where are we now? 2000. So it was 2009 into 2019. When the first bunch of wings came out on the market. Something like that one, two years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. We, I, yeah, so I made sure I got pretty much when they first came in and so I had a good amount of time using quite a few different brands and stuff and figuring out like, pretty quickly, like what I like. And didn't like, I it was funny when I first grabbed a wing, I was like, sweet. I just grabbed my stop, a little foldable, which is 80 liters and went down to the light near the shop and I just got owned and everyone laughed at me. So I went back off and got like 140 liter board and then I got it. But I've only got a little bit of exciting background. Like I said, optimist when I was a kid. So I don't have a huge sales background. So mainly just surf or board. So I got it, but I was pretty surprised at how quickly, like I progressed. And then understood quickly, like what a win should be or how it needs to feel to be an all round or kind of what you want. So I kinda, they locked down happened. So then it forced us. We were, I was living at manga magnify at the time, which is an hour North of here. It's kinda this cool little area with thousand people and it's got an inlet and a bar and it's really good place to taste and stuff. Luckily I had the jet ski as well I just started going for it really with with getting wings made and getting them seen and tasted them. I think we did about 29. 30 prototypes. Can you go a little bit into the the different variables that you tested in the prototypes and what made you yeah. And what the final design was based on? Yeah I S I worked alongside a top seller maker and like we, so we started with a frame, we had something to begin with. And then from there, the main, there are so many different things that we played around with, but the span the leading edge diameter, that was actually probably one of the trickiest to get, right. We went, too small, two 32 with the Strat and the leading edge. The leech tension was like a huge one. And I was lucky enough to actually talk to some top sellers here and they used the wing and checked it out. And, we we've had some pretty top people looking at the wings through the prototyping process. Which is pretty unique. So yeah, just to get like the F the first wings were flappy and they weren't that good. So that through Twitter, I'm making these fine adjustments. We even got a pretty good wing around like 15 or something. And then we just tweaked a few things handle positioning was probably one of the hottest, just going back and forth. Just to get these things balanced. Cause yeah I just found that so many wings were kinda, too far at the back or too far the front or something. And I don't know, I just this pure kind of middle kind of feel that you can just power on with you backhand. So that's the goal and it was amazing. It's millimeters with handles. Like we'd go a millimeter too far back, and then we'd have to go, a little bit through the forward and just get them right. But yeah we got there in the end and just, we were able to kind of video from the jet ski and just, see the thing flexing in the air if there was too much flakes or, we got to a point where we got pretty happy. It was pretty rigid. It was, on 90 kg and it was yeah. I feel like it's the combination with between, li like the white the balance and the path, without being too bulky, it is nothing worse to me than a bulky one. It's hard to use. And yeah. What was the dishes disadvantage of going with a thicker leading edge? Cause I find It's the Wayne where it's great, but the tips are pretty flexible actually, right? It's not that it doesn't feel super rigid. The structure of the tips of the wing anyway, when you go to yeah. When you go too thick, every time we went to too thick and the leading edge, it just lighter stuff. It's okay when you go when, but as soon as the wind just, decreases a little bit, it just doesn't fly quiet ride. It just, it's just a little bit too bulky and slow, and it's amazing how much the thickness adds to weight. That's what we were figuring out. It's yeah. So it's such a fine line between getting it right. I think as thin as you can go by, but while keeping the frame as rigid as you can. And in saying that it sounds really simple, but it was different. The wing was definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to be involved with, designing and prototyping and made boards that people really easy. The thing I really like about the wing is how nice it flies in neutral, when you're on a wave and you're just holding it next to you behind her, just flutters and sits there really like it's very well behaved. It's like a well-behaved dog on a leash versus the other wings. You always have to control them, the other wings are, they don't just sit there in neutral as well. Yeah. So what, how did you have it, was that part of the prototype process too, or? Yeah, a hundred percent. Cause that's a big thing for me. I love surfing. So when I'm on a wave, when I'm winging it, I definitely want to be as unmindful or whatever the word is of the wing as possible. Just to forget about it when you're riding. So I thought, yeah, with the design, without saying too much, it was definitely the Strat, which played a big part in that. And just bringing it a a little bit lower bringing it down a little bit compared to the leading edge which definitely helps Stabilize it my, my dad's a pilot, so I've got a little bit of flying background. I've got I nearly got my PPO, but I've got to do a few more hours, but I do have a bit of knowledge with flying. Actually the coolest experience I've ever had was definitely been in a glider. And like I noticed is it two to one for a fringe trench wing? I think he's, I don't know how to pronounce his name, but I can see, he glides he skis and does all this stuff and he puts it all together. You can see that he just puts it all together and it's pretty cool. Yeah. I recently just watch a video of him doing some amazing stuff on the waves, right? Yeah. He's pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. That's my goal for sure. So just point breaks, wives the place that, you were in a power in a way with with the oven that that's a pretty cool spot for the wing when the winter. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have my stuff on my gear over there when we were there for the standard paddle race. But but yeah and I decided to say thanks to Dan Regan who invited me over there and he's our distributor and a distributor in New Zealand. And he's really, he really got into Wingfoot link two years where he was more of a standup paddler and then he got into stand up foiling and now he's heavily into winging. And I think he said that you got one of your wings too, right recently. Yeah, he did. He's loving it. So I saw him last week, caught up with him for a quick coffee. He's good to have around. He's a bit of a froth, so he's yeah he grabbed it and loves it. So that's good. We're yeah we're getting a few wings out for sure. And New Zealand, so yeah, it sounds like you've been selling out every time you get them in. Like how many have you sold so far of the, I think we might've sell it about 250, maybe in New Zealand. Mostly it's just in New Zealand. That's just New Zealand. Yeah. So that's, it's not too bad. Because New Zealand only has what like 7 million population. Yeah. Five I think. Oh, 5 million. We have a lot of sheep, so yeah. No, I think it's about five, just over five. So yeah, it goes to show the amount of people that write, who are into watersports here. Yeah. It's pretty cool. But yeah, it's pretty satisfying seeing the wings out there flying well and getting really good feedback. And yeah, one of the big things for me is just listening to customers and just getting really, and just listening to them with feedback. And, some of them might say some crazy stuff, but some of them, a lot of your customers say pretty stuff that you should listen to. So that's been definitely one of my designing definitely got always listened to the customer. Yeah. So what about your board? We've got your boards in the store from Dan, which is cool. So we're starting to sell a few of those people are loving them. Yeah. That's awesome. Good. Glad to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for carrying our boards. Appreciate that. And then, yeah, I was going to say then this drawn footage I'm using the four eight, and then in the other footage, I was using the three eight analysis of a five eight. So you have basically one F one meter increments. Two eight three eight four eight five eight, right? Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of companies use percentage increments, but I wanted to keep it pretty simple. And we tried that with prototyping and we tried percentage increments, but it just worked out that 2.8, 3.8, 4.8 and 5.8. Worked really well for the size and for the wind range that, that designed for, yeah. I was surprised that duo is going with past meter increments. Yeah, they're doing like four or 4.5, five and 5.5 and so on. And but I don't know anybody that's going to buy every single size in that range. So it's like people want to only buy a one wing actually. Yeah, they do. I'm trying Convince people they need to for the whole wind range. And yeah, one of my things when designing the wing was definitely to design, like the 3.8 to me has quite a big wind ranch, like depending on what foil you're going to use, I can use a 3.8 and like 10 knots up to 25, which is pretty cool. And that's what a lot of customers are saying as well that out the wind range without wings is really good for the size. So I noticed quite a few bigger wings on the bucket didn't really have the path that they should have had for the size. And that was my key thing. So making them as small as possible for as powerful as you could possibly give them. But I think there's a long way to go. I think we're only scratching the surface. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. I think there's. It's definitely a lot of opportunity for improvements. Yeah, especially I think the wings and the foils too are, and just seems like the foils keep getting better too. Actually I w so what kind of food, what's your favorite foil to use right now? What brand and what foil wings do you like to use? Ooh, putting me under the pressure here. Cause I, I know the guys at Armstrong pretty well. AMI and vivid and stuff. I'm loving the Armstrong stuff. Yesterday I went fishing with Adrian Roper who does exits, so I'm using a bit of that. And I've been using a little bit of Moses as well, but I'm kinda coming back to Armstrong a lot for winging, just cause the white and jumping and it feels pretty good on it, my fate, but it's funny these questions cause you know, by having a shop, I've got a, I've got have the sh the shop cap on, and yeah, like the wing is probably like half the weight of an access foil with aluminum. Yeah. Access has that way. It's sometimes it's not a disadvantage of, it makes it feel more solid somehow and more rigid and a lot of people loving it. Yeah. And the access, on the Armstrong foils, which what's your favorite wing T wings to use? I kind of chop and change between, I don't really ride anything over the 15, 15 hour, if it's super light maybe the 1850, but it's between the eight 50 and the 1250. I and depending on what board I'm on. So if I'm on a little board and it's windy I've got a 33 liter little four O so I'll probably use the eight 50. And then if it's a little lighter, I'll probably use like a 60 liter board with the 1250 or 1550. It's 1250 as a lot of Lyft, actually. That's a really good fishing foil. It's pretty, it's got a big window in Arik and it's a good one. Like for point breaks and stuff you can pump through sections and yeah. I'm just loving love. It's cool. Being able to, it's cool. Actually not having my own foil and being able to try all these different foils right now. I know you've got your own foil, but you use anything, right? Yeah. I've been trying everything and I mean our Carver foils are the ones that we are on. Those are more, a little bit more entry-level are they really easy to use and forgiving and stuff, but they're not super, they're not the most high speed and most high-performance ones. Yeah. So I've been playing around with a lot of different foils while at the moment. Like I recently just started using the axis eight, 10. Have you tried that one? It's yeah, that's a really nice one. I really liked that one a lot. Before that I was using mostly the seven 60, which is also one of my favorites. It's a really good seven 60. And if it's really like the eight 62. But yeah, those are and then on the Armstrong, 1250, or even a 10 50, it's pretty fun doing in waves. Yeah. It's very current. Yeah. Talk a little bit about boards. You just emailed me a picture of second late latest prototype. Yeah, let me, so they talked a little bit about board design and what you like to use and stuff like that. Yeah. So we've, we were lucky enough to have a shape next to the shop. And it's been really cool with prototyping and just get the made so I can see the blank and get them done pretty quick and take them out on the water pretty fast. But yeah, so I'm gonna bringing out a new model, which is slightly wider. I just feel like, yeah, my, this model is, it was pretty good. The only thing, it probably lacked a little bit of stability, maybe, for the bigger, slightly bigger new people for the board linked. So I kinda, it's probably what you're doing, I'm just trying to get as much volume as possible and keep a swing right down. Trying to keep a pretty parallel line and a kind of a square towel after this board had a port entail. And I kinda, I, I realized, that it's okay for some people, but, you want to make it easy as possible, right. For people to grow, to grow the sport or whatever. So yeah. These are wider than a Dick concave, which is proving to be pretty cool. Yeah. And a, yeah, you have two stringers in there. Yeah. Two cabin stringers that go right through and right through to the front of board through the track to the back. And yeah, I'm going to do a arrange of bullets made in New Zealand, which is a different thing for me. I've always got most things made off shore. So I think that after the pandemic is being a support local kind of thing. So yeah, I'm going to, there'll be a ranch here made in New Zealand, so it's cool. Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. And the bottom shape, like what kind of contours do you have on the bottom of the board? So pretty smooth, kinda, it's just a double kind of double barrel kind of concave that actually runs through the whole board now. I've smooth it out a little bit, not so drastic. And then the board's got the same amount of nose Carrick and a little bit of tau kick. I find quite handy getting up on the foil when you're whinging, but yeah, it's, the bottom is like our first model, but just, it just continues. The concaves just continue straight through straight out in the back. Just getting the motor would have flow through the board or whatever. But yeah, it seems to be working pretty well. It's probably it's took it out the other day. I had a few people using it and yeah, people, so the size that it's pretty stable. Yeah. On the wings, the biggest, you touched on it a little bit, like the biggest size you make right now is 5.8. Is that correct? Or do you make a bigger one? Yeah, I was going to say personally, I find that like, when you go too big on the wing, it like, cause it also increases the wing span and it's it tends to touch easier on the water. And you end up not getting. That much more power by adding more surface area. It seems is that kind of what you're thinking? Like I know some companies make seven meters even bigger than that wings, but I've never, I've tried, but I've never had the desire to buy one that big, because it seemed like at that point I'd just rather not go winging and do something else. Yeah. I totally agree. My thoughts. Exactly. I think there's even like a nine out there maybe, but yeah. I a hundred percent agree. I feel like when you're holding something that cumbersome, it yeah. I don't know. It's odd to handle it. Just go towing, go surfing, go fishing. No, I, yeah I don't know. I'm considering doing something around six. But on the only, only considering, but I'd rather play around with new materials and see if we can get the same amount of grunt and just reduce the weight a little bit before we just start going bigger to get more efficiency. Cause I think that possibly maybe with a material change in the design change, we don't have to go bigger to get more pal. Yeah. Interesting. You talking about materials? I just talked to Todd from ocean rodeo yesterday and about there, they're coming out with the Lula fabric frame, leading edge and and this which is like a super light material, and still very strong that lighter weight. So is that what you're talking about? New materials is, are you considering those. Yeah, I had it. Yeah. I had to look, I knew someone was going to come out with that about a year ago or two years ago. I looked at that material, but wise just, wasn't it doable with production, but it's different. It's pretty cool that someone's doing it. I think I've got a couple of things going on right now in New Zealand, but I'll keep you in the loop with, but yeah, I the pricing is crazy. It's like twice as much as a regular wing house in terms of, yeah, like right now, I think like recreation wise I'm really happy actually with what we have and everybody getting into it, you can almost, yeah. When you change materials and you make them super, super efficient, you're kinda dealing with a pretty small market. I think we're going to go there when we start racing if we do. But my things in the surf and in the waves, but I guess with every sport we're probably gonna, it's probably gonna go rice, isn't it? With wing on my thoughts and then I think we will see some pretty drastic material changes. Like you do, with the Moss, the four-lane Moss, the sails are carbon cloth, like super, super thin been through a few international Semite, Sal makers factories here in Oakland. And I've seen some pretty cool stuff being produced, but again, it's, cost-wise, I don't think people are going to pay 3000 or 2000 us for. Oh, they might, for always want to have the best, so if something is clearly clear, then I think people will buy it, but it has to be significantly better it's for them to spend that much money, I think. But yeah, I was going to talk about the handles real quick too. I find myself on a 3.8 and 4.8 using mostly the widest grip, the front handle and the back handle. And then on the five eight, I use like the middle handle in the back. Is that the same, like you do or is that how you design them or, yeah, I go to the Y I go to the widest group as possible and least it's if it's absolutely nuking, I'll probably use a smaller wing anyway. So I think with every wing I used the widest possible, but I've got a pretty wide span. I actually went a little bit narrower. But do you find the, have you used the widest the front and the back and the 5.9, do you think that's a little bit too wide? Is it is it both ways? And sometimes when I if I want to jump out, grab the back handle, but for regular riding, I find that on the five, eight, the second to last handle in the back work better for me, for some reason. I dunno. Yeah. And I think it's just going to change with everybody's spans and whites and styles and, sorry. You think it needs more handles? I noticed some manufacturers. I came from the, I came from the duotone wings w whichever, boom. And then, yeah. Yeah. And for so it took me a while to get used to the handles, to be honest when attacking and stuff like that. I would miss the handle though. I'd have to look where to grab and, but, over time you're going to get used to it. And now I can actually pretty much find the handle without looking for it most of the time, but having the rigid handle definitely has an advantage. And then I dunno, I think that's something that could be improved so on the wings is like the handles. I think having the center inflatable center strap really helps with keeping the wing on the water, floating. And then also when you're flying on the wave, it's a neutral, it keeps it flying straight, it doesn't take talk back and forth, like the, without the center strata tends to do that wandering thing, instead of slacking. And. But yeah, and that's what when I did the interview with Alan cadets, he mentioned that to the new duotone slick wing, cause it has an inflatable center strategy. It's more at handles nicer because of that. But yeah, I think that's something, I think I just had to get used to the handles too, but it took me a little while to figure that out. Cause the nice advantage of having the stiff boom is that you can just slide your hand back and forth and you can just grab it anywhere. And then bringing it out. The water is easy to grab underneath the wing and describe the handle. So it took me a little while, but now that I'm used to the handle, I think it just as this is good and it definitely feels a lot lighter without the boom. I tried to make the handles like as rigid as possible. So it had a Bloomfield. Cause a lot of people in New Zealand and obviously in Maui and everywhere and Hawaiian wind surfers who are quite boom orientated, but there's been a few people hardcore boom guys that have used outwin who've just gone. Yeah, no, this is cool. We can deal with an inflatable Strat now. And so that's cool. So you sold about 250, there's a New Zealand. I find that amazing. Is that like when you go out on the water or like more than half of the people on your wings are like, yes. Yeah. I think like we we we are actually the only ones in New Zealand with a shop, whether on brand. And I think that helps to be on it, and there is actually no one in New Zealand. These is Armstrong, but you know that they're more international. Yeah, I focus pretty heavily on the local market. It's pretty good for me and, but I just really wanted to have a good wing. So my goal was never to just rush and put cause I had an opportunity to put a wing out straight away when the first ones arrived, but I just waited. I just really wanted to put a good wing out and yeah. So w we'll just update probably every year I've noticed a couple of other brands have updated quite a few, some are on like generation three or four or something now. But I think I'm going to just every single year. Yeah. Have a different version and we're working on it now, but it's a long way off yet. And yeah, right. Yeah. So anyone in the U S if you're interested in these wings, you can get them from us at blue planet surf. And I'm finding just to come out with, I told you I would make a video about the wings and I'm planning to still do that. Probably post that a little bit after this interview posts, but yeah, let's talk a little bit about just wing foiling in general, and then, some other random stuff, but can you talk a little bit about where you're at with your wing foiling and like what you're working on? Do you have any new moves that you're working on or what are you into these days? It's hu it's tricky one. Yeah, I think for me now I've been going to the Lake a little bit to test product, but now I'm just every time that winds up, I'm looking for a surf spot. So it's and this is why I find winging really cool, because it's I I didn't mention that before, but it's bringing all these different kinds of sports together. So you've got sailors and surfers and all these different kinds of sports coming together. And I'm noticing, the sailors, they love going fast. They love putting on a NHA wing and, or, smaller wing and going fast. It's not official, but my friend snowy, he's an Olympic style that he got like 30 knots here the other day, which is pretty fast, I think for winging. And then for me yeah, it's definitely finding surf spots. So finding point breaks and. I like wave riding. And the wing is just the answer, you don't have to get the jet ski all fueled up and go. Although when there's no wind, I love toe foiling. But yeah, for me, what I'm working on right now, I guess just going bigger. So bigger is like hitting the rents. You guys, it looks as though you got some pretty sweet conditions over your way. You'll so you definitely try to get in the waves too, but I find that sometimes, for winging or spoiling in general, you don't necessarily want to have the biggest steepest waves. You just want a, more of a mellow not too steep of a wave basically. Cause it's hard to control the foil and the faster steeper wave, unless you have, if you're tall, you, then you can use a tiny foil. So it's a little different. Yep, exactly. I reckon you need it's you need a really good combination of waves and wind. If you're going to drop your foil size. Especially if you're out somewhere on a point break and the tide's going out, like you you don't want to be stranded out there. And so I'm going, there's no one board that I'm using at the moment. So if I'm playing on a point break, I'm gonna use a board with a bit more volume because at least it's like really nuking. I don't really want to get stuck out there with nothing. And Paula noise is pretty shocky. Is that Paul? I knew he, like, when I was there, the wind was like straight off shore. Is it, is that the normal conditions there? Or they getting like Southeast, which comes right out the beach, which is pure crusher. So it's yeah. So it's perfect. It just comes straight up and hits the point. So you're just like round and round. And I dunno, I think even goes out for seven hours. He gets in trouble with the wife. That's such a beautiful place. Yeah. Yeah. What are you working on? I w all kinds of stuff that I like one that I've been trying to pull off. This is my friend Daniel trying to do backflips. There's a couple of of he's starting to do that, and I'm thinking about it, but I haven't really throw myself backwards yet, but I have been trying to do the spins, into the wind, like turning the board through the wind, and then it's weird, cause I landed a couple of them. By the first time I tried them. My first session, I tried it, I landed a couple. And then since then, like that was like three or four months ago. And I haven't been able to land a single one since. And I think it's all the way, getting the wing right on the landing, it's tough. Same thing happened to me. Yeah. It's almost I don't know what, cause I, I used to be able to do threes and rodeos and back flips and front flips on skis and the snow. And then I thought, but I dunno with the whole wind thing, when you get here it's definitely a lot of, and that's why all these wind surfer, these guys like balls and stuff, they just know exactly where to put the wing in the wind to help rotate you around, which is, yeah, I need to try it a lot more. When I did a three, I keep the wing just facing one way and I passed the handles around it's I did it, but it's probably not the right way to do it, but it would have for me, that's us Dean is doing it too and stuff, but yeah, you did that way. If you do it that way, you just have to stick the landing perfectly. Cause you don't have any power in the wing if, until you grab it again, and so when you teach beginners or you get people into winging, what are your, like your top tips to give to beginner wing feathers? I'm in the shop cause we teach people we've got a jet ski luckily, and we take people out and teach them how to foil first, before the wings so that they don't have to at the same time to do together, which I think is crazy. I think you should do it. I, my opinion, I think you should learn to foil first and then grab a wing, play with it on the land, maybe jump on a skateboard or something, but get a feel for the wing and then combine them and put them together. But I'm always just saying, just go big, just go bigger than you think with everything. So big with a board, big with a foil and and yeah just make it easy and go out when there's wind. So 15 knots all over. When you're putting it all together. Yeah, definitely. When you're starting out it's hard. It's you need more power to get it going, like bigger wing, bigger foil, more wind. And then as you get better, it seems like you can go down in size with everything because once you figure out how to pump it up and get it going. Exactly. Yup. Yeah. Any other tips? And then there's the whole, cause there's a whole thing. Like I think there's a fear with people buying a board that's maybe too big and then they progress and need a smaller board. At the shop in New Zealand, we're gonna, we're going to lease some bigger boards. So it's seven foot by 32 kind of barges. We're just going to lace them and just the people can learn without maybe buying a board straight away. Then I'm going to buy it back and resell it again or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's kinda, it's probably not like the greatest business side, profit idea, but I think it will grow the sport, what we need to do. I think. Yeah. I think you're right. The, it definitely, the, it's definitely much easier to learn on a bigger board. These, this board I'm using as a wing, the wing master for four six, and like it's no, no good to learn on. It's just too small and too to, get on your knees and it's tippy and hard to use. And, but once you get the basics down, then that's kinda what you can use, so you all grow a big board pretty quickly. And I usually tell people, try to get a used one or borrow one from a friend or something like that instead of spending, and don't spend a lot of money on a really big board anyways, because you're going to offer exactly. Yep. And yeah it's not most affordable sport in the world, but yeah it's quite a bit of gear. It's what quite a few people maybe put off with the gear or whatever, but I think that's definitely going to become more affordable and a lot of different options. This set up here is actually one of the first times I used the PPC wing. I think I was the second day I use it and right away I felt really comfortable on it. Oh really? I brought it right away. Pretty balanced and yeah, no, that's a great way. It is. It did a good job on that. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about just life in general. In terms of what else are you interested in? And do you have any hobbies or cross training or other sports or interests. Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to taking the wing to the mountains and I'm like jumping off some cliffs. I've seen some cool footage with Kai and stuff lately. So that's been pretty sweet and yeah, we just saw I'm really pumped on like winter coming, which is weird. Cause yeah. So I'll definitely be taking the wings to the mountain. Where do you go? I guess on the South Island you go where do you go and which model? Hopefully down South, I've got some friends in Wanaka and Queenstown. And so we'll stay down there. Actually. That's another thing, a lot of people are just winging on the lakes down here. I'm like, it's perfect in the summer they get heaps of wind. So a lot of people are yeah. Loving it down there at the moment. So yeah, there's that. And then I play a bit of golf. And then I like fishing, cause it takes my mind off. Boiling. Cause I do it for, a job like you. I dunno. How do you get away from it all? A good question. I just try to do stuff that's meditative and not yeah. Where you can clear your mind, and I love to go hiking actually. Like I was a score on solo hikes, try to go where no one else is around and just get out in nature and immerse myself and not listen to anything and just try to be almost empty, just clear the mind, basically not think about stuff too much. Yeah. Finding golf balls the other day golf course. Yeah. I really got into golfing. I figured that's something I can do when I get old for me. Yeah. It really takes my mind off things. You have to focus. Yeah. I You have to focus on what you're doing. Yeah. That's quite frustrating. Like a daily routine. Like when you get up in the morning, first thing, there's certain things you just do it as a routine. I usually just get up and have a. Have a call. I have a coffee with my family four year old Tanika and and I'll check the wind straight away. So like I never used to check wind charts, but everyday it's just chicken, the wind shot straight away. It used to be a swell chart that kind of chatting. So I'm checking that. And then and then it's kinda, no, I don't think I'm a UAE with a shop, so I've just got to be a little bit involved there. And so what's yeah. So what's your typical day? Like a day in your life or what's it like? Typical day, get up, check the wind. If there's wind I'll definitely win. Cause I've got staff, I've got Denise in the shop she's really organized and I'm pretty lucky there. I'll try and hit out of the water. If I can't hit out of the water I'll come into the shop and I'll pretty much figure out what I need to do to work on the wings. So the boards, or I'll go next door and have a look at some blanks and pretty much, and then just deal with a bit of production emails, how it is that affects tree stuff. Just make sure everything it was running smoothly. Really. There's no day where, every day different, which I love and if I can get out, and that's why I love winging so much lately, because with when it was busy through the summer, I could at least get out on the water for an hour and just recharge with the wing and to get back to the office a little bit. And then, yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty cruisy guy. Get back, watch him, watch a movie with a family. Pretty chilly. You have a four year old, this is a Boyer girl. Izzy girl. And I can't wait to take her and get her into this, so I think she's ready to get on the foil board with me. Nice. Yeah. That's, it's cool too. That seems like the younger generation is really interested in it too. This sport just has such a broad appeal, which is which I find cool. It's not just us older guys, yeah, exactly. That's what I think a lot about lately with wings and stuff and boards just, yeah. Designing them for kids actually. And just I go, I went around quite a few of the yacht clubs here and a lot of New Zealand has a pretty good reputation for the sailors. I think in a lot of the clubs were looking at winging as a form to teach the kids how foil works. With the latest America's cup stuff, it's how many kids would just fall on it. So I think, yeah it's actually an affordable way. How to figure out how foil works. The wings sit up. I was going to ask you, when you when you're wing feeling, do you switch your stance or do you keep it like in place? Like I do I keep it in place? Yeah. I'm a surfer. Yeah. If people are people have somebody all the time about it, but I don't really care. I've learned twisting and point my back foot, you forward a little bit to open up my body and I can put pretty high now on my backside. Oh, check this out. This is my friend Derek he's. He has like lines on his wing so he can hold it way up high. It's like almost a cross between winging and cutting, so it's like most of you. What about you guys switching your stance? Are you guys staying in the sear stance? My good friends are staying in the surf stance, and I think, especially when you're using really small boards, it's, that makes it hard to, to switch. But I think one, once you if you didn't learn to do it in the beginning on a bigger board, yeah. It's really hard to figure it out on a small board. It's just most simple. Yeah, I did it at the I did it the other day and it just felt like I was learning for the first time. So maybe that's something I'll work on actually switching my stance because I know for a fact it's going to be bitter. If you're doing the GAAP, when reaches and stuff, you just point high a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, I just realized did I wasn't sharing my screen. Huh? I thought I was screen-sharing this whole time. Sorry. I thought that I just going along with it. Oh geez. Okay. I got to show this. I got to show this footage of Derrick. Again, so that just realize it didn't have my screen sharing on wait I to go back here, but Schutz. Yeah, I've been playing video footage and was talking about it's full time, but Derek Yamasaki, his name says this footage is pretty cool. It's got lines on the wing. It's like way up high. It's kinda cool because when it, when the wing is higher off the water, you get more power to, yeah. Cause it's a little bit windier up higher. Let's talk a little bit about the whole pandemic and all that. How has it affected you? And I know New Zealand is one of the few places where that's been relatively unaffected by the pandemic. Normal life is pretty much, you guys are pretty much back to normal. Yeah. Yeah, I feel I was pretty lucky. Honestly, it's yeah, it would be, we've had it pretty good. We've had a couple of lockdowns that we, business, the business had to be shot, which is it's pretty tough shutting up is, but, I looked at other countries it's way worse. So I actually, yeah we kinda, when the pandemic happened, we would go to level three and we can all just say can we wing? And we'd, we'll just meet up down at the local wing spot and we could at least wing in kinda hit the water and go for walks and stuff. But yeah I feel like we're in our little bubble here. Yeah. Especially with the older America's cup stuff going on. It's yeah. I just feel pretty lucky that you guys have you guys been in a similar kind of. I know, we've had several shutdowns and and a lot of people out of work cause there's no tourism and stuff like that. So it's been a lot of people pretty seriously, yeah. That, that definitely a lot of tourism sort of companies down in, especially Queenstown down South, relying on. I think, some of these America's cup sailors staying in hotels and then a lot of the only ones at the moment. And I spoke, talking to the hotel managers saying that, you'd have to book a year in advance this time of the year. So it's certainly affected tourism. And but I think we're just fortunate enough to be in this industry. And a lot of people just, they need it, they need to take their minds off things. Wing, foiling, surfing, and these sort of sports have been pretty busy like busier. And I think we've seen that. With supply demand issues in factories, things like that. But yeah. Yeah. And you had a hard time getting enough inventory of your boards and stuff like that. We were having issues with that. We can't, we don't have enough boards and stuff. A hundred percent. Yeah. We were, we run out of bullets of return mounts even. I always have boards in production. I get some of my boards made in Vietnam and it doesn't matter where, so yeah. And fright has tripled or nearly quadrupled in price since three years ago. So it's difficult, but I'm making it work. So for people that are I know a lot of people during the pandemic, like being stuck at home, they feel lonely or, depressed or anxious and stuff like that. Like how, do you have any friends that go through that? And what would you tell people? Or do you have any advice on staying positive and living a good life? Cause I, I listened to Rob your podcast the other day and I agree with him. Don't listen to the news too much, and just get out there because yeah I think the city didn't use a lot and just get in, I dunno, just, it can really create a lot of anxiety. I think if you just, the sky is still blue, it's, if you can get out there and just enjoy it and safety yeah, I I've just been watching a lot of Netflix. That's the only thing, a lot of good Dockers on Netflix lately. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. There's a lot of good stuff then you don't know the formula one stuff was crazy seeing those guys, the new season three and how they handled the pandemic and they still made it work, and there's a lot on the line, I think. Yeah. The first one was canceled in Melbourne, but the, they still had a season of formula one and it's just a line in that sport. So it was cool to see like things are still continuing, but I'm traveling. That's pretty cool. Oh yeah, just having the America's cup here was, ah, it was just amazing, meeting up, having good chats with Jimmy and paid and Dean and stuff. Dean Barker. He's the helmsmen for. American magic. He's a Kiwi and he's he's learning to wing at the moment. So like he, yeah, he must be like, I don't know. I shouldn't say maybe 50, 50, 55, but there's, to me, there's like much of an age limit on whinging, which like, I love about it. It's huge. Like I had an 88 year old come in the shop the other day wanting to win and I'm going to teach him. That's awesome. So I'll teach him on that big board and I'll do it safely, Chuck a helmet on him, but I think also, so that'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about what you're saying about the the news and stuff like that. And I think on social media too, it's I guess they call it doom scrolling. It's once you start looking at those kind of Yeah, negative news and stuff. It just feeds you more, as like the more you look at it, the more it feeds you. And it just puts people in that state of it's like almost it's like poor design, I was like people that are already anxious, you get they just get more and more of that. And it's it's terrible. Yeah. There are a lot. I like to ditch my phone every now and then. I, w when I'm fishing the other day, I thought about checking it on the water, but no, I just, I, yeah, like when I know, cause I lived in California for a good year and a half and I I know how it is over there. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's kinda, it's not like New Zealand, so it's kinda, there's just a lot more noise. I feel like we're away from it a little bit here, but I can see in other countries how you can get pretty wound up in it. Even, yeah that's what you focused on too though, yeah. It's like you said, it's you know what you know what you don't have to look at it. You don't have to look at your phone all the time. No, I, honestly, I think a wing has kept me pretty sane the last year. It's been like, I'm just stoked. It's kind long. Who would have thought we'd be holding onto this wind thing and having such a blast. But it, I feel like it has actually say, be quite a bit like mentally, like to have this, to look forward to every single day. So it's been, yeah. It's yeah. It's going to be around for a long time. I think I don't think it's going anywhere. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. It's kept me saying to, for sure. Yeah, no, don't okay. Your videos and look at your more motor and tropical, consistent winds and stuff and get pretty jealous. So as soon as we can travel on, yeah, we're fortunate. But it's not always like this either, this week, we're not gonna have any wind, probably no wing floating for about a week. Sometimes people come here for a week and they think they're going to be winging every day, but it's not like that. Maybe 50% of the time. It's good, might come here for two weeks and not get any when you know, I'm, mommy is always windier. If you're coming, you want guaranteed wind. Definitely Molly's by the place to go more than a wahoo. Yeah, I love Maui because she goes, islands is like a funnel. It funnels the wind between the Westmont mountains and Holly, I believe it when we were playing from a wahoo to Maui and there was no window Oahu when we took off. And when we arrived in Valley, it was, did Palm trees were just like, it was like 30 knots. It was crazy capping everywhere. Yeah. It's pretty crazy like that for sure. I just, yeah the wing didn't exist then. So it was just downwinders. So you just pretty much started your business by yourself and grew it and did you have any help or partners or anything like that? No. So I feel kinda, it's funny cause like a lot of these companies around me and I've got quite a few people involved, I look at pretty much every company around me, like Armstrong, they et cetera. I feel like a bit of a small fry cause it's just me, but yeah it's almost it's not too bad being small because then you can do shorter runs and make sure that, your product's still at the top of the game. You can do it in a way where you don't have to have such a big sort of volume kind of machine. I dunno, it's hard to explain, but yeah, a lot of the other companies I'm looking at have 10, 20, 30 people we've just got a few it's just me and the factories and a couple of stuff in the shop. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anyone you want to thank for their support or that's there for you and. Just my panic, probably just for putting out with me and family and stuff and, everyone that supports me in New Zealand at the shop. And yeah, I'm just going to keep developing keep the product improving. That's my goal for the next few years, anyway, just to keep improving things. And right now you're doing mostly, most of your sales are just consumer directed. You're just dealing directly with the customers more than, yeah. It's directly with customers. And I think, yeah it's pretty unique to be able to just taste here in New Zealand. I think we've got a pretty cool place for testing. Like at the time where I was testing the wing, there was no one around, so that was pretty cool. Just being able to do that with no one, like coming up to me on the beach and but a guy like that is cool. And when I'm an Oakland, like you come out from the car pocket where we wing it tech burner, you're going about like 10 to 20 people around you sometimes like asking you what is this new sport? So it's pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And I, for people here in Hawaii, like going traveling to New Zealand is really nice because it's only one hour time difference, really. So you don't really even get jet lag, you instantly adjust to the different time zone. And then, that's a different day, but the hours, it's only one hour difference the daylight. And then you're in the opposite side of the planet. So it's your winters are summer and the other way around. So I guess it's nice for you guys to come to Hawaii in your winter when it's summer over here. The cuvees come here for that. Yeah. Definitely breaks up the winter. I feel like up North though, it's not too bad. I used to live down South freezing, you'll be winging with gloves on. And that's why I keep thinking about handles with gloves. Just making sure the gap's big enough, but for the colder parts of the world, it was the thing to keep it. I didn't think of that in the United see, went to Russia and the guy's ah, I'm using my three millimeter gloves. That's feeling a little tight. So I thought, Oh, dammit, maybe I'm going to have to make a bigger bet for the handles. But yeah, I dunno, just seeing these wings around like different parts of the world, especially like Russia and stuff. And it's crazy seeing, your own brand around the world w in Australia are I've got a guy over there, Jason, a wing man. He's doing pretty well. So people are loving the wings and ALS, so that's cool. Yeah, I think it's for me I kinda just love my life like right now. And I love my lifestyle and I think I don't want to grow super fast or get an investor on board. I'm happy just doing what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Self-funded, that's all, I think always the best way and just better to grow slower, but keep the ownership and be able to do. That's my philosophy and I guess we're actually similar in a lot of ways that, I volunteer shop. So a lot of direct. Yeah. Yeah. And you ship all around the us, right? Drop. Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of air cargo shipping. It's actually pretty affordable. We actually have free shipping on our website because we can, just included in the price when we sell so boards online. That's so cool. Yeah. So how about you? Do you ship to Australia too? Do you ship boards or mostly just your wings or everything, or, like it's a little bit harder, I think, for it to ship from New Zealand and yeah, it is, it's pretty expensive. So mostly the wing and that, that's a good thing about the wing it's been pretty affordable to to seeing around the world. Boards are another thing. I think if someone wants to sell bulls of stuff, go to Phillip and China. It's I think it's crazy if writing boards. I, yeah, I used to if like prototypes, which yeah, I think it used to be like 1200 New Zealand or something just for one little board. So it's quite cool being able to prototype and just prototype in a New Zealand now with the boards that but yeah, I think, yeah, the wing is great. It's so small. It just doesn't take up any storage as well. So I think. Yeah. Do you find that easy to totally it's easier than the board. You don't have to package it. It's already comes in a little box. Yeah. Unloading a container of SOPs is a big job or a few containers for you. I would say. Yeah, it is. I'm just looking at your background. It looks kinda like one of those fake zoom backdrops, but you earlier, you showed me your backyard. Can you show us your little pool and stuff yet? It's a real background. It's not a fake background. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I heard Baltz molar. Tal

Rob Whittall is co founder and head designer at Ozone and a partner at Armstrong.  He talks about his background the Wasp V2 design, the Armstrong A+ system, and how to live a good life, enjoy! Interview transcript:  Hi, it's Robert Stehlik with Blue Planet. Welcome to the show right here in my home office, in the garage. And I interview foil addicts, like myself.  I wanna say a big thank you to our sponsors. This show is brought to you by people like you, Blue Planet customers who support our business and you know when our business does great, I can do fun stuff, get on the water and do interviews like this and share it with the world. So thank you so much to our customers for your support. And I just wanted to mention to the wasp V2 wings we're talking about here in this video. Are available at blue planet or, they're on the way. So they're being shipped and we should have them within a few days after this show airs. And if you're just call our shop, we can take pre-orders or ship them out right away. Were probably going to be one of the first dealers to actually have them in stock. I'm stoked about that. And of course the show is with Rob Whittall. He is the co-founder and head designer at Ozone. And he talks about the Wasp V2 design really gets into detail on that after we go over his background and so on. And then after about 46 minutes, we start talking about the Armstrong A+ wing system. Or basically upgraded fuselage system. That's really interesting stuff too, that was just released by Armstrong. And then my favorite part was at the end when we just talk about life in general, the pandemic and you know how to live your best life. And so thanks so much for being a great conversation partner, Rob, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did at home, or you can listen to it on as a podcast or watch it on YouTube either way. We do, I do have pictures and video in the, on YouTube, but listening to it as a podcast is another great way to listen to these super long interviews. So thanks so much for welcome to the show, Rob widow. Great to have you. This is actually the first time I have a designer on the show is someone who actually designs the products that we love to use. Thanks. Thanks so much for joining us. Your w where are you right now? Thank you so much for that. I'm currently in a regular New Zealand. Let's start a little bit just with your background. What, where did you grow up and how did you get into water sports? And, what's your business background and design background and all that. Just start from the very beginning and take your time code details and tell us a story. Knows me, knows I like to talk. So you'll be you're good. So it all started actually with in my youth with hang-gliding. My father was a pioneer in the UK, in the hang-gliding city. And so we grew up with time gliding from the age of four and five onwards. I got my first hang glider flight with my father on his back sort of piggyback style when I was about five years old. Those memories stuck in my head until I was 16 when I was actually allowed to go flying. And illegally the flying solo. In those days, the prerequisite was you have to be sick. So at 16 I'd shown a lot of interest in motorcycles, but my father steered me away from motorcycles and offered me handwriting lessons. Instead if I would stay off the motorbikes I said, yes, went hang-gliding for my first lesson and just knew straight away that I'd found something pretty special. And from then on it just blossomed into a handline in Korea, I run around the world, competing hang-gliding ended up working for some factories in first I was just testing gliders to check that they'd come out of the factory to spec and, they flew straight and everything felt how they should feel. Then I started tuning hang gliders and charming hand gliders and working with the sail makers. But then after a few years of that paradigm and came along, moved into paragliding because it seemed like a good thing to do anything that got me was attractive. So I was handwriting and paragliding together, and I had quite a successful competitive career in both those sports. And it just everything kept pushing me towards the design. It wasn't something that I was prepared for. I was prepared for it because I've spent so many years already working with designers and working within the trimming and testing of these things. And one day the sort of the design became available and I sat down and Started to learn to to actually process these imaginary ideas into reality. And it's been a lot of fun and giant. So the 3d computer stuff you taught yourself or did you get any formal education in that kind of like engineering or design like that? It's all self-taught, it's, self-taught, I'm fortunate. I'm very lucky that the ozone program, for instance, is something that I've grown up with. So for me to use it, it's very natural because it's progressed from, very basic design program in the early days to what it is today. And because I've grown with that I can use it very quite effectively. Some of the other cap programs, obviously that. Complicated and written by other people and such a solid works in these kind of things. I can't use them, but nothing with nothing like the the knowledge, because really when you know a program intimately, then you can get the most out of it. It might not have the most features, but if you can use the features that does happen yeah, it can work well for you. Okay. So I guess your earliest childhood memories that kind of got you into these kinds of sports was flying with your dad on a hang glider, basically. Yeah. My, my thought has always been an adventurer, the. Sort of inspired us to, and, gave us the freedom to go and explore and to push ourselves and to to enjoy all these things. Again, he was amongst cyclists. So we also grew up with motorbikes. He'd take us, he'll walk in, let us climb rocks and trees that most parents nowadays would be, going, Oh my God, it's too dang gross down that and do that. And my parents were just gone to the top of that. Let's see your plan to the top of that. It was just encouragement all the time, which was, it's a very positive way to bring a child up. I think a lot of things I hear today or where their parents is that it's the parents' fear that, that holds the kids back. The kids have got tons of skills and they're ready to learn skills, but the parents are afraid. So they don't really let the parents, they don't want the kids to say what the kids should be doing, what she's climbing trees and rocks. And occasionally you might fall off a breaking out, but guess what? It's good learning. So they never tried to hold you back from trying crazy things. I don't think of them as Gregory. I think of them as normal. I consider the things crazy because you're here on this planet for some great experiences in a very short time. And with what I know is available to us and sensory stimulation I want to try all these things and do all these things because. Th this there's a beauty and a, an expression in all of them. And so why wouldn't I want to do all of them. So I pretty much do all of them. That's awesome. So I guess your background was like, I guess first hand gliders and then paragliders and then when did you first start getting into cutting? How did you even, like, how did you hear about it first and how did you get into that? The cutting we actually we just started ozone back in, this was the first, at the very beginning of ozone. It was made two friends and we started it as a paragliding company. And so we were fully ensconced in the in the paragliding world at that time. And. Basically kite surfing had just started, but I was a snow sport man at this particular juncture in my life. I was flying in the summers and snow sports in the winter, heavily in snowboarding and speed. And of course, cause I like to do everything. What actually attracted me was snowcats in that syllabus. First they mentioned the magazine and snow collecting and literally, the following weekend I was Jason Snow because it was just, Oh my God, whatever that is, I need to do it because how were incredible in the mountains where the Kelly, I could see flying already. I could see a skiing and snowboarding, these three passions of mine all mixed together. Oh my God. I got to get up there and do that. So pretty much the following weekend, myself and Matt Taga one we were in the car driving out to this place that we knew you could smoke. And we had literally two days on full line handle counts and, full line handled guides. And we went back to the office on Monday morning. And when the people that were buzzing, like there was no chance that I found was, could do anything about from say, okay, let's try and smoke because me and Matt were just fully induced and yeah, we wanted to make snow accountants. So we set about making snow accounts and after a few years of snow, mainly because we wanted to wait until the patent, but Bruno like a now hat. Finish because we didn't want to step on anybody's toes. We couldn't afford to get into the business in that time, but just a fresh paragliding business and all the constraints of a new business normally financial. Yes, we couldn't afford to pay that back. So we just said, let's just wait, we're not in the area. We're in John Snow. And then the patent ran out and we decided it was time to take a 4:00 AM to the water as well. And so then I in a roundabout way, I've ended up enjoying now all these sensations in the water, which is fantastic. Yeah. I guess when you started ozone, that was before there was even like the instate of leading edge credits and all that kind of stuff. It was this Ram here. Wings or, yeah. So that was the very early days and that it was you and a friend who started ozone? Yes, it was me and two friends. We started the CAD department lights later. That's when Matt came in, but in the beginning, yes, it was, we were, one of them was the British team manager for the British paragliding team. Then there was myself and I was on the paragliding team and my other friend, Dave, he worked for AirWave paragliders back in the day, they were quite a big brand and our big manufacturer. And yeah, we just decided to get together and do our own thing because, you always think you can do better than the people that we're working for. So we set out to. To have a go at doing that because maybe there was a little bit of dissatisfaction in that, it's a long time ago now and it's a lot of water under the bridge. Yeah. By the way, we have a really bad thunderstorm here right now and there's like rain just pouring down and it's probably, I don't know if you can hear it in the background, but it's it's really raining pretty loud right now here at fender and everything. But no worries. But and then, so this was all like you, I guess you grew up in, in Raglan as well, or is that, and you're where did you grow up in? Was it, yeah, I'm an English man and I came from Yorkshire, a place called elites which is a very beautiful parts of the country on the very few days that the sun does shine. Okay. And then what brought you to New Zealand? Oh, it's been a long trip. I guess what will happen to us? My sort of international hang-gliding and paragliding career took me all over the world. I've ended up living for quite a few years in Germany, quite a lot of years in France, the States Spain, Dominican Republic. And then I always had this idea that I needed to go and spend time in New Zealand because of the small population. There's only 5 million. And so I decided this 15 years ago and here we are I made the decision to go to New Zealand. I have left in between, but I've left only for work, but now it's been almost 13 years. I've been basically in rattler. And it's a great place. It's facilitated some amazing aspects of my life. Yeah. Ragland is really a beautiful spot. We've visited there a couple of years ago and yeah, it's just a beautiful place so I can understand why you settled there. And then ozone is based where's the headquarters of ozone or is there a headquarters? There is a headquarters. There, there's a couple of them. The sort of kite surfing department is in spreading and near Barcelona and the paramedic department is in France and they are nice. And then for some reason because I can hear the design department for the colleagues in New Zealand, so also Matt, the owner, one of the owners lives here in Ragland. We've got a great test ride at Tara and Brian lives nearby as well. And if we need help, everybody wants to come to New Zealand for a holiday. So we only have to put the word out, Hey, if anybody wants to a bit of testing time down in New Zealand, normally there's somebody to come along. So yeah, it makes a lot pretty easy. Yeah, no doubt. And then I guess you're also, I guess you're the head designer for ozone, but you also design for Armstrong, right? For army Armstrong and Armstrong foils. You do all their foil designs and the wings as well, or. No, not at all. I'm a partner in the business obviously is from New Zealand. I met army he's an infectious character is my really great spirit. And at that particular moment, he I've known him for five years before this, but so five, 10 years ago, I've known him for about 10, 12 years. And then about five or six years ago when it started the foil business he needed a little bit of financial help. So I got involved helping him financially and the business got kick-started and it was working, but it was a massive strain on him. Because we are working between here and China and also being new to all this kind of business, it was a pretty difficult. So I sat around a set about finding some other partners and we'll pump it up. And that was how Armstrong really came into life. But in terms of design and development, I just help out with the testing. I give her some ideas on what are, I work with which profiles we might use on some files, but I don't do anything apart from that. The AUA news, all army, the actual, the true design is all. He's the guy who's. I'm not plugged in to the water. He's plugged into the water I'm plugged in. So I stick to what I do for sure. There's theory that crosses both. But my sensitivity or, I believe my sensitivity for design is in flying things because I just, I feel that I have just a better connection for that. Once we go into the water, just like I can jump on all kinds of hang gliders and paradigms and feel what I want to feel. It can do the same thing with all kinds of files. And if I don't protest with the foils, he's testing for the high-performance guy and I'm testing for the kind of the average Joe, because I just don't have those super skills Ollie's through Waterman half. I'm just a, I'm just a wannabe. You're born in there. Like you said, that was your early childhood experience flying. That's probably in your being, so that makes sense. So the funny thing is that he's grown up on boats and sailing around the world with his father and, just has absolutely that connection. So it's, the similarities are crazy, but it's just with different mediums. Neither of us have the mathematicians or scientists. We're all which is something I always like to remind people Because some people are surprised that neither of us have had any sort of formal education in this. But what we have to understand is that mathematics and science are only explanations of nature, something religious plugged into nature, and they don't need the mathematics and the science to be able to find the right answers, the math, mathematics, and science are there so that we can try and have a broad spectrum of understanding of how something actually happens or why something happens. But it's only a language that doesn't mean it's actually better than actually being connected. And someone like I just say that these plugged in and because you watch the last weekend, for instance, we went and tested some files, just telling him to some waves that ABI can jump from the very most high aspect weighing with. The fastest tail on with the most shims in the backs of it, the whole thing is as fast as possible. And he can just get straight on that ride, come back, change the whole rig down to something like something made way with a slow tail on them, notions in the back and just an HS front wing or something and write it incredibly. The second D stands on it. I crushed both at both of them for a couple of waves until I find your YouTube and then I can be a lot of work. I got it, but I don't really feel comfortable. So I'm the average guy tester and the guy of itself, because you obviously need a sounding boat because it's very easy to get carried away with performance, but. I always feel like, Hey man, just don't leave me behind. It is so true what you said about the science part aspect of it, because you can't really, there's so many things that you think in theory, they should work, but then when you try it, it doesn't work. So it's all about the feel and testing and R and D that's, you can't really predict how somebody is going to work until you try it. It seems like these sports. So that makes a lot of sense to me. And yeah. So the, it's more about the background of understanding what is actually involved in sport. Then the theoretical part is really the secondary or afterwards, you can explain it maybe with the science, but why? I think what's also important is that everybody only goes home with a feeling right. That feeling isn't tangible in it's only tangible through yourself and through expression. You don't put that feeling into maths and science, do you to go home and say honey, I had this amazing day. I re I, I released the power of the wave and at 2.5 tons of volume just behind man. That's not what do amazing the feeling out there was insane. So you're taking a feeling home, so you don't have to break it into silence, or it doesn't have to be developed from science. Just, the testing for example, whether I'm testing a a paraglider or a wing or Italians or fathers, I'm only testing the feeling, it's what is the sensation that this thing is giving me that, is it easy to define that? Is it smooth? Is it progressive? Is it forgiving? Yeah, I'm thinking too much to try and get the power out of this thing, or, there's the handling slow. Those are the things that are actually the relevant things for me. When something isn't working then, and in my mind, I'm drawing this picture of what I've built and then I'm trying to think, okay, so why is that not working? Why is it not doing that? And go back home and look at the computer. And when I say, look at the boot, so I just started, you see the drawing, all the, the the 3d image rendering of it. And yeah. Okay. So it wasn't doing this. So maybe if I do that, it'll give me that result that I'm looking for with its better handling on whatever. But it's all through just feeling. I can't plug in some mathematical formula, but to say, give me better handling. It's only imagination. Imagination. Yeah. Also just I always tell people like for Santa Palio and all those sports, where balances involved and things like that, you can't really use your mind to your mind is in fast enough yet. It's almost like your nervous system has to take care of those adjustments. And if you try to think about it, it's just too slow, you have to have that confidence that your body will automatically regulate it. And then just it's really too, it happens too fast for your mind to think about it almost, yeah. It's definitely to be able to analyze it. Okay. So tell us how you got into making the wings. Like how, why did ozone decides to make a wing. or whatever, this, a great scenario, because because I was getting into, in the business with army and I was very supported untainted that I really enjoy sub filing. I still love stuff for more than going toeing into the biggest stuff or whatever. I just really love catching waves on stuff. And then, I saw one of the Slingshot weightings, and I suddenly felt with a guy riding it with writing us up with a foil and the wagon. I just thought now that actually is a really good way to get lots of time on the folder. And, cause I was subtitling, I just wanted more time on the foil because I wasn't that good at the time. It was crushing way more than I want it to be. So I just, yeah that's the way. And literally went to the guys in the office and said I've been to make a wine and a couple of days later and literally just all happened at the same time. Kai had just started riding Rios and he just randomly sentiment. He might have out of the blue saying, Hey, I don't suppose you're going to make any of those wings. Yeah. It just so happens. It was a good little match as well because we were going to do it, but it's definitely a little bit of an incentive having. The idea that Kai wants one as well. So I'm not the only guy here with my hand up and we should be doing this. Yeah. It started from that. Obviously I can economically we've just launched the V2 and a big one I can just say is it was a reaction to something starting. And that was my reaction to this thing starting we are in business at some point you have to put out a product and I was very happy with it at the time because it did what we wanted it to do. And it's been, relatively successful and people enjoy it. But I can definitely say that the two, because there's been more time is much more refined and yeah, just Has a multi giving character, much more forgiving characteristic than the bit you want, but it was a new sport and everybody was just Hey, this is what I got. This is what I got. So it was nice because there, there was quite a few different types of designers out there and development doesn't just happen in one person's mind that happens through, seeing what other people are doing and all right. Okay. Maybe I should try that. So now we understand the pros and cons of the boom having a booth yes. And not having a booth and lots of other little things, bits and pieces that, the Slingshot, the inflated trailing edge, it was an interesting concept. It probably isn't a viable in terms of consideration, but maybe we'll come back to. But, yeah, so you've got to see all these new ideas and people edit what they have and that we get to refine the ideas and perfectly make them better and better. So the sport becomes easier and more fun, more accessible. It's pretty amazing that you had Kailani as a test pilot, from the beginning. That, that's pretty awesome. So tell you, so let's talk a little bit about that V2. The, it looks pretty similar, like visually the design didn't doesn't look like it changed a lot, but what are the things that you find on this V2 version of it? Okay. The first thing that we were looking for was a better balance in the hands. The pretty one, I felt that you had to pull the handle too out all the time to get the power out of it. And they worked enough power in the front end. What I would like is more power in front of him. And as you pull, look back on that power increases on the backend to match the front of that. And so you ended up with a of that. So we spent a lot of time on this, working out that balance a lot of times, moving the handles up and down just to, to get exactly what the thing that's required. The next thing we did was so when you, sorry, when you're flying it, which channel do you use the most? Or what, I guess it depends on the size of the wing too, but as a design team. So you would use mostly the middle back handle or the backpack handle or just to, there are different, various different styles and understandings our concept predominantly built, but the way that I like to STEM and I'll wings. Okay. I liked the Wydown stamps. I find it more controllable in many ways. Stance. So predominantly I'm using the, and the pivot in the front, and I'm always on the backhand, unless it's flowing pretty much around the most power is when you're on the back Campbell. But our wins are designed around either on the front, the lower end of the vape. And then on the very back handle is once it starts getting rid of windy and you're feeling like that too much, then that's where the big towers. Okay. It's a, it's quite a wide stance, but if you want to bounce well, normally it's good to have your outs out. Most people don't bounce very well. So that's another reason why they have . Okay. Putting on the headphones. Cause it's so noisy here with the rain. Yeah. It's a real downpour here. Crazy. I hope it doesn't flood. We're right at the quotes close to the water. So we, I guess this garage flooded before, so hopefully it doesn't get to that point, but yeah, it's coming down, but yeah, like I find myself using mostly the back handle myself as well. Just feel I get more power out from having my hand all the way back. Okay. And then you added windows two. It looks like do some words. Oh, when windows looks like you added windows, you didn't, the original ones didn't have windows. We actually, we have some on order. And they're going to have like our little blue planet logo on it. So I think that's super cool that you're you let people put on their own logos on your w on the ozone wings. And then I have to say too, that the way you have your factory set up and the ordering system is, cause we're also dealers, obviously we sell the ozone and we, we saw Armstrong as well at our shop, but just being able to go online and place the order and then see what's happening with the order, make the payment. And then, and this is just a very nice system and it very clear about how long it's going to take. And when you get to get it and stuff like that, which unfortunately is not the case with most of the other brands. So that's something we're doing our best, that those guys have done an amazing job with the production facility. And just so you know, the listeners can understand Please with the ozone wings at attention to the detail, but it's taken in the manufacturing of these things because it's actually our factory that we set up 20 years ago now in now it's literally like a massive extended family. We look after our work is very well. We give them a breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and if there's overtime, which they really enjoy with them again we have health care pay above all the average wage. We try and when people say we're a little bit expensive, yes, we are a little bit expensive because we don't produce in China and we have our own factory and paying our work is more than what is normal. But the reason for this is the quality that they produce for us. Because we look after them and we have great systems and they get us their best work. Literally, if you look at the stitching, it's all straight the factories in Vietnam and yes. Do you go there often? Do you travel to the factory often? Obviously it's not last year, but usually do you go there regularly or yes. Yes. It's important that the developments of movies spend time and not sometimes for both parties, it's good to see the difficulties in some, in the manufacturing and construction of these things, because it's very easy to get. Karen away with complexity, but someone has to make the stuff. And then someone has to make the stuff, within a time schedule because we can't produce the craziest things in the world, but we're going to cost an absolute fortune because the summer time I put into the production, nobody wants to buy them all by phone. So everything has to be understood. So sometimes you can go there and just see a process of struggling with, and literally modify the design. So the selling machine just has, 10 mil clearance next to a seat. And so that it can run free instead of them having to stop lift out over a foot down again. We, so it's very small things, but we have a massive attention to detail and construction, and I hope that listeners and viewers can see that cat that is tempted. Yeah. I just had an interview too, with Annie Reichert who, one of your team writers and yeah, she said, one of the nice features too, is that there's two valves, so it's easier to deflate the stress now. And I've noticed like a lot of guys here on a wall who had problems with the the stra bladder folding in and then popping. So w what did you do to fix that issue? It's basically now tethered on the inside. That's why the zip is up front. So it's easy to get to that. Yes. Now it's tethered. So a strings attached to the end of the end of the bladder to the strep. You can see that I've got a street with a back hole in the center where it was the previous model has described running all the way down. Along the side of the day, tried to match the reason we've done message to lower the center of gravity, because obviously by this time, then the white, which isn't really ideal. And so now we're down lower back minus the wind sit more stable because now low, it seems, it also loves and loves better when you have that little panel, because it just allows the wing to flutter easier, right? Yeah. Yes. Exactly. One thing we've done is we brought tips, so that helped him to bear with the water as much. Because definitely again, the video was was the winglets. We did that. They happen in the beginning. We loved it that much anyway, because we needed 25 knots. We didn't even know how to talk. As we got better at that lead him to ride and lots of wins, the tips got into the layer. So they've been sheltered by about 2,250 millimeters on baby for winter. So it's quite a big difference in that way. You've got much more without tip interference. Okay. That's nice. Another thing I noticed is like your, the, your window placement is pretty similar to the Armstrong wings and whatever people say is that. It's hard to see through the window because the top window is too high to look through. And the bottom window is covered by the strut, so I dunno what made you place the windows right there? Is that from feedback or I'm just curious the reason that when does a person that believe it's the best place for them to be, I would like to be scratch it. for those listening, we just got interrupted by, took a while to get get it back up again. What were you talking about? We're just talking about a windows. Yeah, and I did, I was just explaining out, making an excuse. I'm not quite sure which it was the reason the windows are where they are is first. You do have the ability to see that's the most important thing you might have to move the wing to be able to see. Yes. Okay. I agree. But what I didn't want to do is put it in the next panel out because that panel is too far out. And so the reason it doesn't cross a panel is because I don't like to have things like different materials in a panel crossing because sewn together, then you have different stretch characteristics. And in, especially in seams, it's better to not have different spectral characteristics because that love is in every seat. Obviously there's more load and At some point, if there's different stretch characteristics, it's not going to want to live next to each other properly throughout life. So that's why the window count be a bit further up or because diamond needs to do in the next panel, which is too high or it's where it is. And like I say, it only takes a quick I'm good. Oh yeah, you can count. So I'm a total advocates at the window since the sport is getting bigger. People need to be able to see, especially on the, so when you are with Kelly surfers, Windsor , all these different crops now that are on the walls, they all go up when to very different, random angles, compare to each other. So you need to be able to see what's happening when and where on a regular basis. But if you have to look for it and look for that, it's still not job to be aware of. Who's around given a window, but it's still that. Just move your hands 10 centimeters and you consume plenty. And I guess another concern with the windows is that you want to be able to you don't want to increase them right when you're rolling it up. And so I guess it's probably easier to roll it up without creasing it when it's right next to this truck, then when it's in the middle of the window. Yeah. It doesn't matter whether it's because you can produce that stuff. We've got the special space center stuff. Oh, okay. So it's not a concern now. Yeah. We've had all the windows in a minus 25 degree conditions and no way, and we've been using them and, off desert conditions. No problem. So are these pictures taken in Raglan or where is it? Where are these waves here? These waves are in Ventura. Oh, Fuerteventura okay. Yeah. Yeah. I guess ozone is a pretty cool global company. Huh? The good thing is the Spanish guys buy the main sort of parts of the hub of the Chinese certain departments. It's very easy to go to flight to Ventura or the Canary islands under the Spanish flag. So it's just very cheap flights that you can probably get flights for 50 bucks, right? Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. All right. So basically the advantages of the new wing are that handles handle placements better. The tips are less likely to catch the, is the leading edge diameter changed at all, or it has only four minutes or it's gone slightly bigger, but on the other sizes, it's virtually the same. The other thing is with that baffled in the, the baffle rip down the center, it's allowed us to increase the fitness of the profile. So there's a, there's more power and it's easier to access that power. The back handle is very, what's the word responsive in increasing the pal. Cause we've got quite a high CAMBA profile. This is what you call the baffle here. Yes. That's the battle, it's one of those things that, does it have a deeper profile? Did you change the curve of the profile at all? Or? Yeah, so it's deeper in the front, deeper in the front end, the overwhelm, and another reason why it has small, but the main things that you're going to notice when you fly it is it's much more stable. You just get on it and it feels a plush is the best way to describe it. It's just blocks to the standard. Oh yeah. This is very effortless. Nice progression on the power. You will notice. Now the front hand is loaded quite nicely. For instance, on the beat one, I was always getting my My lights, aching, like crazy on the backhand side would just be, Oh my God. Cause you're just pulling them the whole time. And now being more balanced in the backhand, it's just a much more relaxed. So it's more comfortable to ride. It's more stable when you have just surfing on the front one. The V one had a tendency to flip over slightly regularly. But the two, it just sits there and doesn't do anything it's making generally it just makes it more comfortable. It's more user friendly. Is the weight similar about the same or the weight of the wings? It's about the same as you want or to tell the truth? I can't tell you the right, because it's probably on the website. But not really much, but it will have been weighed. I can only imagine that with the window compared the new handles a little bit lighter, we're probably looking at virtually the same light. So it's quite a lightweight especially with the CG, with that struct it automatically feels in the ed lights up because it just sits that, if you just get it up in a bit of Oh my God, it just flies into the cell. So it feels water, but I think it's actually manufactured infection lights. Okay. Very cool. All right. Do you get, can you talk a little bit about the new Armstrong, a plus system? Do you know much about that? Or were you involved with that? With the work on that you were okay. I'm going to share some pictures of that and this, I guess when the time I'm posting this interview Armstrong will have this up on their website. And so the new they're, they just announced it to the dealers, but this is the A-plus system. So they made some changes to the, as far as I can tell the fuselage has these barrel nuts that go through the fuselage kind of horizontally, right? Or why don't you explain the differences. Yeah no, it's a you started with the right thing. The first thing that everyone should understand is that everything that we currently have is compatible with being the plus system. So every, all the wings you've got, it's not a problem at all fit for work. It's all good to go. The A-plus system, as you can see here in this one, in this diagram that we have up now in the photo, you haven't, now you can see now that there's a barrel that's on the top of the front line, right? If you go to the top of, yeah, exactly. That, so that barrel nut is now going through top to bottom, which just locks the front ring on and then you've got the barrel nuts on the side of, yeah. So that's that one. Exactly. Yep. And then you go to the side of the fuselage and we've got one going in horizontally. Yes, exactly. Inside of the mouth side. So we've got going in horizontally, that goes all the way through the fuselage and on the other side. So basically these are opposing forces that tighten themselves together and squash whatever's in between just that little bit more. And as you can see with this new high aspect where the ha 1125. This has got an aspect of 9.8 to one, which is very high aspect. These wings have due to that enormous span and the fact that they are very powerful for their size. They have massive forces being created. We needed to develop a system that would cope long-term with those forces. Now, what I can just tell you is you can stick that wing straits on the rear that you have with no A-plus without the A-plus fuselage and it will work and it'll probably be fine, but over a long period of time, you might notice that there's a bit of wet between the fuselage and the mask, because these leverage loads, when they just keep working effectively, it's like super fine grit, sandpaper. Over a very long period of time. We'll start to love each other and they'll make it a little bit of Slack. And so that's why we've come up with the A-plus system just to minimize that micro movement so that when not wearing out the fuselage of the mask, but as I said, you can still use that one tomorrow on any rape. This is of the outlet. Yeah. And then they also offer a kind of a retrofit where you can actually a kit where you can basically it has a jig and you can drill out that hole yourself and add the nut and strew basically to an older or an existing Armstrong mass and fuselage. So that's kinda cool that, sorry, just to make one thing clear at the heart of the A-plus system is the fuselage. And the reason for that is. Because the the barrel nut that goes through the mask and then through the fuselage has to go through that time Tanium. And this is a new hole. So you won't be able to have this barrel, not today on if you have the old system, because fuselage has a solid titanium and account pro presenter of it. So the key thing for the whole thing is the fuselage. If you wanted to upgrade it, you can buy a new fuselage and then you can, re-drill the mosque with the Oh, you can drill the master, put in the barrel, not to cross the mask and you can drill all your front lens to have your front load. Okay. For the battlements at the front. So basically that's why. Even, but you can still ride with everything. You've got just putting new wings on. You just won't have the battle of knots and Mustang in the front way. So yeah. So basically that basically though, the older fuselage, you cannot you can't add those barrel nuts on an old shoe slash cause basically you're saying, because you can't drill through the titanium rod in the middle, is that the issue you can't drill through the titanium rather than tap it, it takes interesting. Yeah. There's still no problem writing it without it's just that climb and that is going to get slopping because of the fact that I'll not sloppy, but there is going to be some play in that because there are massive forces with those supervisors. Sure. And that's the app, in foiling, you don't want any play between the mass and the fuselage and the front wing, especially if there's any kind of looseness that makes the whole thing feel sloppy. Like you say, you said, you want that to be super rigid and stiff. So I guess the other differences, the tail wing as different as well. Yeah. Instead of having those titanium 3d printed shims, you're using plastic shims design. Yes. Now the title of mine can go directly on to the fuselage. All existing title. Wings can go directly to the fuselage as well. Although the new eight plus system tailwinds, or just been slightly modified to, to basically fit it more elegantly. But oldest stuff, you've got some, there's no water to that. And the reason we did this was it's just easier to have. A solid fitting with the master and the tailwind and just have the small shin adjustment if required because the titanium ferrings, although they were great, they were quite expensive. Whereas we're giving these things away for you. Yeah. That was one of the things I, like what retail, I think they're like $70 or something for one shim, so that's definitely not cheap. So I guess these ones cost a lot less to manufacturer I'm sure. Yeah. With the fact of the matter is that the Armstrong, ethos and philosophy is we basically want the best stuff that we can have to ride because, w when now the age that we've been through enough sports and used enough, Averaging crappy equipment and some very good equipment to, to know that it's much nicer to have really good equipment. So yes, we may be outside and expensive, but that's because we're not really compromising because we don't want to compromise because we've got to go out of there and ride it. And I'm out there for the best feelings I can possibly get rather than something that we'll do. That's why, we had the tie to it and ship it and because of the time, that's what we thought was the best thing. Okay. We've now love that. There's another way of doing it and it's simpler and it's cheaper. If we can, anything that we can make cheaper, then we can, we will, because obviously it's good for the customer and man. Yeah. As long as it doesn't affect the performance. Yeah. I've noticed definitely with Oilers, once you get addicted to the feeling of foiling then price becomes less of an issue, for beginners, they always. Worried about price, but then once people get hooked, then I guess they're willing to pay for the drugs. You call it price insensitive, yeah, you don't care about the products you just want the next day fairly like start, I don't know, but it definitely the case that people just want to get. Whatever's the best thing they can get, but tell us about this new wing. The H S 1125 it's I guess the first, really super high aspect wing that Armstrong make made. Right? Is that the case? Yes. I think it's the highest aspect when available on the market. I'm not sure about this, but basically we've been in the throws of making this for a year and a half. Development is. Of these kinds of things is very difficult and time consuming because you're already looking for definite progress as such. And so yes, this has been the result. And it really is quite interesting if you, Oh, if you're winging it. Okay. Obviously with the big span, you're going to lose some reactiveness, but you're going to be very surprised that how quickly this thing can turn. It still turns pretty damn good. If the tips come out again, we've been working on the section of the tip to stop the tips ventilating. So the tips can come out, nothing happens. You just carry on. The glide is amazing. So you're pumping and the timing that it takes or put it this way, you don't even have to really contemplate. Your tax, you just to have the thing up wind and slowly move your hands over and I'd bring it down. I'm just still gliding with loads of speed and super easy. Just January, take the wing again and fly off. It's yeah it's pretty amazing. It's a great step in our progress. We're not going to talk about the rest of the market because the rest of the market is whatever the rest of market is, but for us, it's certainly amazing and we're all enjoying it. When I first saw it. I just thought there's no way I can like that. It's just, it's too out there. And now I'm riding it all the time. I just love it. This is pretty smallest surface area, but like in terms of. Lyft. Obviously a high aspect, you always get a little bit more lift than on a low aspect wing for the surface area, but compared to the other wings what is it similar in lift to a 1250? Or is it more like a 1550? Or what would you compare it to, in terms of the feel for the lift wise? That's difficult to hunt competitive like that. I normally think there the only limitation to a witness getting up, getting the thing for them. This is how it's how much speed it takes to get it. Yeah, because it's high aspect. It doesn't have grounds, but once you get it going, it's got glide. Like you can't believe. And yeah, I love drag. So in that trade off, yes, you lose the grunt at the bottom end. So you've got to pump a little bit more, needs a bit more wind to get going, but once you going, the speed is phenomenal. The glide is phenomenal. I'd say you've probably got the speed of the eight 50 with the glide of the ADT, but in a very different, but a much faster it's. Firstly, I haven't tried other hot before Ohio that follows on the market, but from what, from within what we do within the Armstrong range, something completely abstract because it does everything very differently. It's still, an easy enough to use foil, in the glide in the way it reads it, it does well, but it's not like anything else. It's it's quite busy. But I think you're going to see a lot of people. Maybe a little bit of an initial hesitation, but once they get going on, there's certainly you're on flat water. Oh my God, this is the way this is the way. If you're wanting to ride waves, you can still cruise on wipes with it, but it is a bit more technical and you don't have quite the maneuverability, but, I was with army just the other day and he was, yeah, he was riding the wave. I guess once people get good enough and used to it, Yeah. Yeah. I find too, when you have a really high aspect, weighing it, with the wider wingspan, you just, if you have a longer mask that allows you to tip it over more, or, if the mass is too short and relations to the wingspan, then then the wing ends up breaching real easy or the, the tip comes out too easily. And then that makes it a little bit harder. But I think with a longer mass you can go you can go wider on the wingspan as well, but let's talk about, sorry, just to recap on that's a very good point. We have that wing is best used with an 85 master longer. For sure you can't use it with a 72. But, the wine Spanish, huge, the tips are going to be out quite long, then the tips can breech and it's not a problem, but you know that the trade-off with high aspect is that you are going to need the longer masks really. So this tailing, is this telling the same as this one? This one looks like it has like more V2 it or something. Yeah. Yeah. This is the flying V and this is a little bit this is inspired a little bit by sky drama. And then because the America's cup is going on. Oh, incidentally, the front follow the the Halm 25 has been through the team, New Zealand computer that, that design computer to be analyzed and refined. The best guys in the world have actually been looking at that have input and in what it is. So it really is about as cutting edge as we can get right now. And it's the segment of the tail. If you notice the tail, and if you look at the the foils that are on the America's cup yachts at the moment, obviously there are all these so army is very good friends with the sailors Jimmy respectful of people very good friends like out towing together that followed into we need together. They're there, they're all involved. There's been a lot of. With this run up to the America's cup. Cause you're going to sit in the America's cup now, but obviously for us, it's been happening for a long time because it's happening in New Zealand, but New Zealand is a very sailing, orientated place country because it had a lot of coastline and a lot of people live on the coast. So we're very water orientated. And we've also got a museum, has a big history and segment. So that has affected how I would design that Armstrong has happened because of spending time with those guys and those guys being involved with us. And it's all just played off on itself. So it's been fantastic. And the knowledge that those designers have is phenomenal and the computing power they've gone through something and you can dream. Okay. These are the, these are some of the most. I think people in the world throwing money at designing the best things as they possibly can so that there was some very educated eyes run over those smiles. Yeah. I believe it. Yeah, it sounds pretty cool. I was looking for this somewhere. There's some pictures of Jimmy Spithill foiling and stuff like that, but I don't have him on my computer right now. Try to look it up. Yeah. Jimmy and Pete head to head. Awesome. Fantastic. As well. Super high. I am Stu and these guys are training. These guys are fit. That they're not sat down drinking champagne on the back of the bed. Now, this is lovely. He's got a Holly and it's just, I find it phenomenal that in their free time that they're running around chasing for them because of the feeling they're on the way doing dabbling quiz, towing it with Amil, with the East coast and the West coast. It's just yeah, this is put it this way. The job is sailing, but I passion really is for, yeah. So for yourself personally, do you spend most of the time on the water now on a wa Wayne foil board? Or do you still go sub foiling or what do you do the most when you get? I'm in a lucky position. I'm involved in everything designing tights and loss. Know so basically messing around on cars. So the 50% of the time, and then I'm missing around sub 20% of the time and maybe with the women 30% of the time. Obviously our work and colleagues is still the majority of my work is we have a big Reagan ship, always needs tending. But for sure, I'd love to, to go from a way now for a couple of hours of that, and then get sat behind the computer for a while. Wait till the wind comes up and then go for a constant prototypes. Then obviously I'm intent on other types, whether that's, but otherwise it's either work a little bit of flying. Yeah. For me, I just find like you were talking about it earlier too. Like when you get on the wing if you have a two-hour session, let's say if you're sub foiling, you might catch maybe five to 10 ways and maybe spend, you get 10 or 20 minutes on actually up on the foil. If you're really good, that would be probably the max versus when you're winging, you can be up on the foil, probably like 90% of the time, so in terms of, that's why I think too, like when I started wing flailing, actually my foiling progressed a lot faster because I spent so much more time getting comfortable on the foil and all that kind of stuff. It's helped my standup foiling as well, but now I kinda, yeah, when I'm set up for anything, I feel like, Oh man, it's I'm not getting enough time, yeah, but. It's all good fun. And I just love riding waves too. And yeah, sometimes the wind gets in the way but still it's like my friend Derek says, it's you have an Uber ride back out, like with the wind, it's like you, yeah, you got your Uber ride back out to the break, so you never have to paddle and stuff like that. So go ahead. I think that's why I love the way quite a long at the moment. I'm sure there'll be something else come along. So maybe not the same thing, but there'll be something that's going along. But what I like with the winning is that you get so many, you get so much diversity with the foil because I can go set up and then, if there's a sweat and. Do some downwind in the wing and ride some waves or some bumps. And then if there's some real waves, then I can ride the waves with the way. And if there's no way, just going around and messing with them, just practicing your taps in jibes and some three sets there's and blah, blah, blah. It's just, it's all very better for you to can enjoyable. It doesn't matter. There's no wires. No problem. Let's do this. Yeah. It's a great tool for a diverse sort of enjoyment. Yeah. And it also opens up the sport of foiling to pretty much the whole world, as for, before you had to have a wave or, a certain type of wave even for foiling. And now it's just yeah, all you need is some water and a little bit of wind. And and you have a huge wind range, too. If you have a big wing, you can go and really light, wind, and a few, strong winds. You can still link for me now I'm either in the four weeks or the three minutes. And then if it's strong, but if it's lights are a big enough for me to, I'm happy to change the wing under the water to have more fun riding than I always prefer to have a small one, just. Maneuverability and comfort it's much nicer, but maybe the big guys feel happy with the five, but the fullest good for the three super nice as well. I can normally pump up with, three the same in the same strength. One was a Canada four if I just throw up. So just I'd much prefer to ride it. 1250 is my standard, but I'd much prefer 1550 on the state of the three meter in my hand, then compromise that because once this is small, you can do, you have to worry much less, so the attacks and jobs and trips, and once you get on the letters, Yeah. Having a small wing just makes everything so much easier, but so when you on a four meter wing, what's the lightest wind would you say you can go out and with the 1550 or, in a four meter wing? I'm pretty confident that I'm good at 10 to 12 and 1250 and the full meter one. Okay. It's not pumping up electric fit, but we get it down. And sometimes it's just waiting for that little Gus to, I guess what people, when you start out, it seems like you need a lot more wind to get it going, but once you get good at popping up on the foil, maybe waiting a little bit for the right Gus and then quickly popping up once you're up on the foil, it's so efficient that you really it's almost like you, you could almost go down half to half the size once you're up on the foil, once you get it going and you have that apparent wind coming up. Yeah. What do you think, how far it's come in? Such a short time? Both the foil development and the development isn't happening just because of the wings, but now we, the wings that definitely helped them with development. Because, it's giving us another opportunity, but we went up the fall. Just in a year and a half, we've come so far with some nice far wins now, and the happenings are getting better. It's only going to get easier and more fun in the future. So do you have, like you're saying, there's probably going to be another thing coming in the future. Do you have any thing any ideas or crazy ideas about what could be next or things you want to try or she's your technologies you're playing around with, I've got a feeling the advent of the electric battery age and about the electric power age is, w we're scratching the surface now with with the folio boats, but. I can imagine a little electric power pack on your back or something where it's more of a fan rather than just like a powerhouse, but electric it's waterproof a bit like the diving things that they use in the water, but about that. And it's just a fan, whether you'd go out there just to accelerate up on top of the foil, the wings are so defaulted that you can just some little pumps every now and then go out, catch some waves, the hood. Who knows that the human imagination can take us anyway. Know, it's just a, it's a case of a little bit of time and effort. So I'm sure we're going to see some things. Yeah. I was wondering too, if there could be like a combination between kind of winging and kiting, like where you have some short lines that you can like, kinda let the wing of final at higher may not my friend Derek actually does that. He has this long line on his wing and then he just lets go and holds it by, by the line and that's higher up in the air and he gets no light wind that helps because you get a little bit more wind once the way is a higher right. You have more power and yeah, no worries. Oh, your battery technology is not quite there yet. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. W what else do you want to talk about? Any, anything else? You want to get into I'm not really well. I honestly, Rob, I think we've covered a lot, but it was good. Yeah. I think we're about that. But like I say, it was a total pleasure. I hope that it brings some form of entertainment maybe. Yes. Yeah. Entertainment is the best thing. You know how people that are addicted to foiling, they'll spend the money to get the best thing, things that they want, but also in terms of consuming information, like I'm always surprised how many people actually listen to these interviews and listen to the very end. But especially all, all this stuff you talked about is super interesting. I'm really interested in it and I'm sure there's going to be plenty of people who are going to eat it up, yeah. I, I certainly don't I'm a positing is my understanding of my feelings. So everybody's different. Some people like this, some people like that, I've got no problem. We're just doing what we can do and enjoying what we can enjoy. If you're not an expert, I don't know who is, but I guess none of us are experts if people like it. People like the things that, the themes that we create, then that's fantastic because that's what it's about. Really. We're just facilitators and we're just sharing that common feeling. And so people that are feeling that fantastic and people that another brand is feeling. No problem. Don't enjoy it. Just the main thing is people are out there experiencing and enjoying sports and nature. Yeah. Actually there's a couple more questions I wanted to ask you. I almost forgot. So usually I ask all my guests who should I interview next? Who do you think would be good to get on the show and talk about wink, flailing? Unfortunately I think. I'm going to say someone who's probably difficult to get on the show, but I think it'd be interesting to know what Kelly, hi Kailani. Oh yeah, for sure. Mainly because I'm not I'm impressed with this guy because I have chosen to ride some. I was by the, by I'm impressed with the guy because he can cross over all these sports and, just are still looking at me without if they'll do I find that just the crossover between some forms set up messing around with, but this guy can go pretty much next level on everything all the time. He obviously loves this because he took all that to Jones. I, yeah. Some of that footage, he's just on a regular 12 foil board, but let's say he catches air and it's he's floating down the face, almost like a Pelican flying along the front of the wave, the sun, the updraft of the wave. Just almost, it's almost like paragliding, yeah. What he's doing, it looks like he's just hanging in there for a long time email. I'm not pretending although I'm sure we're friends, but you tell me by email is that expressed that he had expressed once a week to be able to fly down Jones. And of course, my background in flying, I can see straight away. And obviously now what I do in the stuff, I know how the through the water just creates its own up graph. And as soon as he said, I'm just thinking God it's possible. And so we are working on a special one for him to do that. You can't hold a drip man down and the guy wants to do it now. So I didn't really think was ready for that kind of thing. But he decided it was Oh, that's cool. So you actually working on that kind of a glider wing that can basically float in that updraft, that's coming up the face of the wave. And just I wouldn't say at the moment, we're just working on the special link, especially when we're just working on a way for him to satisfy what he would like to find that. So I don't know if that's a win for everybody else or whatever, it's just. Look at what the guy can do. If we can facilitate him to do something kind of something else, then let's do it. Yeah, totally. That's good. Yeah. Okay. The other thing I wanted to talk a little bit about is just, the whole pandemic and the whole situation in the world and how you've been dealing with it. I know, like in New Zealand you guys have been probably one of the, one of the few countries where you're like, I guess pretty much unaffected by it at this point. Like you can just go out as normally and go shopping without a mask on and all that kind of stuff. But how has it affected your life and was there like, is there a silver lining to it and how have you been dealing with it personally? Okay. Excuse me. So the silver lining to it is that Basically society. The Cuban spin sees is also like a muscle. If you don't stress that muscle from time to time, it doesn't get stronger. The muscle is currently being stressed and already we're beginning to show signs of strength and we weren't weak and we were vulnerable. And that we're beginning to understand that this bigger than is applying to them. It followed you. And the potential of the human existence to go forward is probably with a little bit more awareness than we were displaying before. So in that respect, yes, there is still the line for myself personally appearing very lucky I have to go to the States right in the middle of this thing, which I didn't want to do. But I have to go to the States. Then I went to the Dominican Republic. Then I went to Spain. Then I went to UK. I think I went somewhere else to Germany. And then I finally came home and I managed to Dutch. COVID the whole way I came back to New Zealand where life is just carrying on totally as loss, which is a blessing. Fantastic. And as I came here and just drove into town, so people everywhere and restaurants for people living normal life after the full month, I've had nothing was normal. It was very galvanizing in my gratitude for being here. In New Zealand, because with a small population it's relatively easy to control. And at the same time might have me truly appreciate the, there are people who are having a massive discomfort, an auction because of this this event. Yeah, I hope that it gets played up soon and we can return to some form of normality, but I hope that normality is where a lot more awareness of and gratitude for life. We take it for granted and we're also better considering myself, and so if there's anything that opens our eyes to that, then I think it's a good thing. Yeah. I think just being able to connect with people like we are now over zoom. I never used zoom before, before the pandemic and now it's like normal. Everybody knows how to do it and then send someone a link and we can talk like this and see each other and talk like we're sitting across from each other. So that's pretty cool. Okay. So when you came back to New Zealand from all the travel, what was the procedure to go back? And I dunno, what is it? I thought New Zealand was completely shut down that you couldn't travel back and forth, but you can only travel to DC, London rested. And when you came back, you had to go into that two week quantity and it wasn't it was relatively strict, but it wasn't terribly strict. And yeah, I got tested twice. And if you were playing and you were allowed out, it seems to work quite well. But like I say, this is a big Island where there's lots of satellite communities. There's only 5 million people. Everybody's relatively well educated. If you couldn't control it here, you couldn't control it anyway. And although it was a lot of praise for the prime minister, she did do a relatively good job. But like I said, if you couldn't control that hair, then you know, you're pretty helpless because this is being able to control it. Hawaii is an even smaller Island or islands group of islands, even less population. And we weren't able to keep it out. You know what I mean? Cause we were so a tourism dependent, they just waited too long to shut it down. But But, I don't know. You can, it's also like it's a trade-off, is, how much economic damage is it worth to save those lives? It's a hard question, so yeah. Yeah. It's a hard question, but the biggest problem is, and stuff. I find the question, disappointed how much economic damage we have, so economically minded, but we've lost really the true value to life because economics comes before and to a certain degree, it has to, or it has to come in unison. But let's face it. Economics has been at the forefront of the modernized existence. So let's say at least the last hundred years, it's all about economics now. And we forgot to nurture any of the requirements around nature that can help people's fit recognize that, we were overturned, again, we were over tourism, everywhere and everything. And it's not, we've actually found that it's not helpful. It's happy to make some money, but at the same time, there's people traveling on planes everywhere. And basically all they do is consuming and leaving junk behind, but blah, blah, blah. It's just, okay. T

Welcome to the Blue Planet Wing Foil show, episode 4 with Annie Reickert, a talented young water woman from Maui.  Annie excels at surfing, big wave riding, foiling, and wing foiling. Interview transcript: Aloha, it's Robert, thank you so much for tuning into the fourth episode of the blue planet show, which I'm producing right here in my home office, in the garage. It's all about wind foiling. I interview athletes, designers, thought leaders in the sport of windfoiling all about wind foiling, but also about whatever else they're doing. And just trying to get to know them a little bit better and, talk about life in general. I've been really enjoying meeting all these people and talking more in depth, it's a longer format. So if you don't have enough time to watch the whole thing on video, you can also listen to it on the podcast. Of course, on Apple or Android devices, just look for the blue planet show, do a little search and should come up and you can listen to it while you're driving or doing other things. But watching our video is great. Cause we sh I share like some video and photos and so on. So it's easier to visualize. I'm a very visual learner. So I like seeing what, but what we're talking about. And I really appreciate it, all the great feedback we've been getting. I know it's such a small group of people in the world that are into wing filing, but everyone's super enthusiastic. And I love getting comments like this one. Yeah. Wow. When I saw the interview was 90 minutes long, I groaned at the end. I didn't want it to stop. You guys were fantastic. What a great conversation. It was so interesting to hear Alan's background and about the early days of wing foiling. Thank you so much for putting this together. It must listen for all the addicts. Thanks so much. That's a great comment. Love it. Keeps me going for sure. And I got actually two great shows coming up. Today's show is with Annie Reichert, who is an amazing young athlete, 19 years old from Maui. And we talk about her doing crazy backflips, big wave wipe outs at jaws, growing up in Maui, wink, foiling tricks, foil gear, dealing with the pandemic and you know how to live a good life. And those are the things I talk like talking about with people not just wing foiling, but life in general, and you know how to live your best life. And just getting to know them a little bit better on a personal level too. So the next show is going to be with Rob whittle. He's a co-founder and head designer at ozone. So he w I asked him a lot of questions about the new wasp V2 wing. And then also we talk about some big news from Armstrong foils, where he's also a partner and helps with the design and technology. So really interesting stuff, if you're into the gear. And then also, he's just a super cool guy. And we just had a great conversation about, life and the pandemic and, just living a good life. And without further ado here is Annie Riker from Maui, any record, welcome to the blue pad show. And how are you doing today? I'm good. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me on yesterday. We had some really heavy floodings here on Oahu and my friend's house on the North shore got flooded and I read it on Maui, had some pretty heavy rains too. What happened there? Yeah, no, it was crazy. I had just gotten back the night before from a trip. I had just flown it and I woke up the next morning and it was just torrential downpours all over Maui and yeah, unfortunately haiku, like the North shore of Maui got hit super hard. And I had a couple of friends whose houses got swept away and just a lot of damage, which is, so unfortunately, especially for the haiku community. Yeah, it was a very unexpected turn of events when I got home. But currently like the ocean is just completely chocolate colored. It's is about as Brown as it can possibly get. But yeah, I'm hoping everybody can recover as soon as possible and that the rains let up for a couple of days. Yeah. So you just got back from a ski or snowboard trip on the mainland. You missed about two weeks of really good wins here. I know that's what everyone was saying. I think the waves were subpar, but the wind I heard was just like off the charts. Incredible. I'm sure for you guys on a wall, it was crazy too. But it was nice. I haven't been off Maui in a while, so getting to go and enjoy the cold weather, which is such a kind of different turn of events from here was really fun. And it was nice to get back in the snow. Cause I haven't, I don't think I've snowboarded in two or three years. So it was super enjoyable. And you went to Jackson hole, you said? Yeah. Yeah, it was incredible. I was with a bunch of friends that were like a much higher level than I was so getting to go and follow them around and progress at a much quicker rate was really exciting. It wasn't like incredible snow, but we had beautiful sunny conditions, which honestly I think was almost, it was worth it just because it was so nice out every day we were spending time on the mountain. My second interview on the show was with Baltz Mueller. And he thought that you're going to be the first female to land a back on a wing and that I should interview you. So I thought that was a great idea. And so that thanks for coming on the show. And but talk a little bit about this like this. You, I guess you're trying to back flips on it's dropped in messed around and messed around with wingback flips and just with prone back flips like this. And I think I got pretty close to the winging one, and then I ended up popping all of my wings and then winter rolled around. So I I took a break from that and focus more on the big wave slash surfing side of things. And I'm excited to bring it back the summer. And then, yeah, I was out, this is the status video I was out with Jeffrey Spencer, I think he's like the back flip King of whinging and I, the opportunity to go out with him and we were just messing around toast surfing, and then we also brought out a foil, which was really fun and. I got to try that, which is it's really cool. Cause that just gives you the opportunity and you can just put yourself in the perfect spot, especially when you have, we were using a ski in that picture. He told me out, and then I let go and did a back flip off the way. And so that was really fun. Cause I think it'll also help my writing when it comes to the winging tool, just cause I had so many opportunities to practice that over and over again. Then I didn't land at that session because the jet ski started to run out of gas. So we had to head back to the Harbor, but I'm really hoping I get the chance to go out there and try that again. Soon when the wind lets up and the rain kind of subsides. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I have some friends who were doing it, like just pumping back out and then doing flips off the waves, going back out, pumping back out, which I find amazing. I can't even imagine doing that, but yeah. Getting pulled in by the jet ski definitely helps. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I've tried a little bit of the pumping back out in the back flips and I think it's, yeah. It's a lot harder than it looks, these guys that do it, they just make it look so effortless, but it's just so crucial to be at like the most critical part of the wave when you're ready to like, turn and spin and yeah. Like lining up and making sure I've gotten pretty close a couple of times, pretty much just like right under it and just barely faceplant. But yeah, I think hopefully it'll all come together and I'll be able to figure that out eventually the summer is that's the goal. I think. Yeah. It looks like you're getting really close and then I guess you're good friends with Jeffrey Spencer. He makes it look so effortless when he does those backflips, right? Yeah. No, it's amazing to be out in the water with all those guys, Jeffrey pie fan, his little brother. It's amazing. Just to be able to watch them because they make it look so effortless and I'm like, why can't I do that? You guys make it look so easy. And yeah. So it's encouraging. Have they given you any pointers on how we have a little bit of a delay? So talking over each other a little bit. Sorry about that. But yeah. So what are some pointers they've given you to try a back flip with the wing. I think what the wing, I think, it's pretty interesting. Jeffrey has a really different technique to PI versus like balls. There's all these different guys. They have really different styles in it, but some of the technique and advice Jeffrey's given me is just to bring your front hand or like your top hand in, and really set your line. And I think it's like the ballerina spin theory, which is when you're turning, so you don't get dizzy, like you want to like, keep your head and then like at the last second, move it. So you keep your center of gravity aligned. And he said it was just kinda like a SIM like similar thing with the wing, just so you don't get like super disoriented and yeah, he gave me some other great tips. And I think definitely when I try it again, I'm going to need to go back to him for some more and he's going to need to come in, coach me and help me along. So you can yell at me if I'm doing it right or wrong or not. That's interesting. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Cause I've been, I haven't attempted it yet, but my friend Daniel is doing them and, or attempting them and he always seems to like, on the way up loses, as a boy comes up, she come out of the straps and the board goes flying and then everything comes on top of the board falls on top of him basically on the wing. So it's scary, but I know like Zane Schweitzer, he throws his head back. Like he just really throws himself backwards. And then I think, yeah, Jeffrey Spencer, it looks more like he's keeping his head. And then at the once he's like halfway through the rotation, then he looks for the landing what's his head's different ways of doing it, but yeah. I guess you just have to be committed to making that rotation. I think that's like the, honestly the biggest part. Yeah. It's all about the commitment because yeah, when I was first trying it, I'd get like halfway through and then get really freaked out and just bail and ended up back flopping. And before it would come down on top of me. And so I think it's honestly like the safest way to do it is just to go as big as you can and just fully commit to that to that backflip, which is a really intimidating thing to try and figure out. And I'm still trying to master it myself. I know. It's so impressive that you try and hit anyways, but so you have tried it with the wing as well. I have, yeah, I've tried it and I have some really funny pictures and videos that one day the world will need to see. But yeah, it was it's really fun cause it was right after Jeffrey. Got it. I think everybody saw that video of him doing a back flip and they were like blown away and I was two and I was like, Jeffrey, you need to teach me how to do this. And it was really cool and I've yet to actually do it fully and right out of it. So I'm excited to pick that back up. Hopefully when the waves died down and the summer months come on us. Oh did you mention that you had some pictures on your phone that you can share? Here's one of me trying them. I don't know if you guys can see that. Yeah, so I got upside down, but I didn't make it much further than that. And there was some videos. That's what happened to my friend too. And when I saw him do that a couple of times it was like, Oh my God, that I can see how I, I heard that the Spencer brothers destroyed all their wings when first, when they practiced them there. So I guess, no, it's definitely, it's not gentle on the equipment or the people when you're trying it. I will give you yeah. I'm sure. And probably wearing a helmet is a good idea. Do you ever wear a helmet? In the, in those videos? I actually was usually when I'm just normally winging it always, I feel like it throws off my balance and I don't, but in that situation, I definitely watched Jeffrey attempted and come some near close foil collision. So I wear a helmet just to be safe. And I definitely think it was, it felt good to have it on. It just made me felt like more confident and more, yeah. Ready to attempt it. Awesome. But yeah, I wanted to actually start with just telling, tell us more about your background and like how you grew up and things like that. Yeah. Start from the beginning. I'm born and raised on Maui. I've always been like gravitated towards being a super outdoorsy kid. My parents always raised my bro. I have a little brother named miles. My parents always raised my brother and I had to be super involved in sports and all that stuff. And I started surfing on the front of my parents' board when I was. Two or three, I believe. I used to wear like floaties on my arms and go out there and they'd hold me on the front as we were just catching like tiny whitewater. And yeah, I think I've had a super deep connection from the ocean from a young age. My dad was always super active and he loved the ocean. And so I think it was like a natural progression for me. And yeah, I was also just like growing up on Maui. We do live in an Island, we're surrounded by ocean, so it is a natural progression to end up doing some sort of water sport or at least spending time in the water. And for me growing up, I did all sorts of different sports, like soccer and volleyball and all of those. And And then when I got more into surfing and then I discovered standup paddling, that was where I decided I was like, wow, like maybe this is something I can do more than just for fun. Maybe I can compete in this. Cause I always did, like surf contest as a little kid growing up and they were so fun, but it was more just what you did in Hawaii. It was just, if you're a part of the surfing community, you'd go down and spend all weekend competing. And it was just a fun thing for the kids and the families. And then yeah, when I did discover sub surfing and that was right when Kai had gotten into it, it was like the pinnacle of everything at that point. That's when I really fell in love with it. And I realized that I wanted to do this more than just for, a fun pastime. And I started competing in that and I traveled around for a while and in sub surfing and separating. And then I got involved in the down winning side of things and the channel crossings, which honestly is still one of my favorite things. It's amazing to be able to be in the middle of a channel and cross something as treacherous as one of the, the Hawaii channels, which has such kind of like a great history around it. And did the most recent, was that 2018? Yeah, that was, I foiled it. Yeah, I've done it twice. I believe for 2017 and 18 probably. I guess before 18, 19 in 19, I think I was so excited to do it again. And I'm hoping that if everything is, willing and that we'll be able to do it again this summer, too. So tell us about that. Were you able to fly on the foil most of the way across? Or was it a lot of up and down where you had to restart a lot? Or like how was that whole experience? Yeah, it was unbelievable. I think the first year I ever did it, I actually, or the first year I ever did it on the foil, I went there with the intention of paddling it on my 14 foot step forward. I had just learned how to downwind, foil. I'd only been doing it for two months before that. And I'd only done like a couple Maui runs. I don't even think I'd done a Harbor run yet, which is like about 10 miles on Maui. So I didn't think I was prepared. I was, I was super intrigued at this new sport, but I didn't really think that I was going to attempt foil it. And then. I got a call from Kai right before the race. And he's I think you need to foil it. And of course, I was incredibly tempted and I brought all my oil stuff and I decided the night before that I was going to foil it. And that was amazing that year. I believe I came off foil probably eight or nine times, which, how things have progressed, which just seems like a crazy number. And then the second year I ended up just coming down. I fell once and then the rest of the time I was up in foiling. Wow. That's really, that's amazing. Yeah. Compared to Chi and Jeffrey and all those guys, I think they didn't even fall, but for me it was such a big improvement from the year before that it just was amazing. And I think the most taxing part of downwind foiling is getting back up. It's like the. It's like the more you fall, the more tired you're going to get and the more taxed you are. So it was even easier for me than the previous year, just because I also spent a lot less time on the surface of the water and a lot more time gliding across the channel too, which was awesome. And it was really fun, to, to like work on improving equipment over the year and dialing in the down winning equipment. Cause I think it was such a new sport the first year that  happened with foils and then the amount of progression that happened between that one year was really cool too. So I'm excited and looking forward to doing it again, hopefully in the com coming years, hopefully this summer, but we'll see. Yeah. So what about the very end once you got close to Portlock point, like I guess then you hit the off shore winds and stuff like that. Like how far did you get before you dropped off the foil? Yeah, it was, that was brutal. I think at that point I was so ready to be like done at that. I was just head down completely completely in my zone, just going for it. And I didn't make it that far in, I know Kai, I think like comp like halfway through the Bay, which just seems like the craziest thing. But I I made it probably like 30 seconds inside the offshore wind, and then I didn't link up with any bumps or any wind and that I ended up just paddling on my stomach, the rest of the way, which definitely at that point, I'm like, I've made it this far. I can keep going, come on. But it just feels like such a crazy crazy feed at that point, too. Oh, here's some video of jaws. I guess it would be a shame not to talk about, Oh, this is you getting ragdolled at jaws. Yeah. I do tend to face plan a lot. I've noticed this is a very funny video of me. Funny. It looks scary. Yeah. I think in the moment, it definitely, wasn't funny. But I think hindsight now that I watched the video, I'm like, wow, I'm glad I survived through that. I think yeah, when I did first originally fall, it was like, I didn't think I was going to get sucked over the falls. Everything was going great. And a guy ended up going in front of me and it just threw me off a little bit. And then I hit a bump and that's me. And then I popped back up, actually I got a breath in and I felt okay. And I didn't think I was going to get sucked over the falls at all. And then I just I made eye contact with someone in the channel and then I ended up just I felt this like sucking feeling and, getting like stuck at like the top of a wave at jaws is just one of the most like terrifying feelings. I think you can you can go through as a human and then. I slowly felt it sucking me over and I realized what was happening. And I got one big breath in and then held on for dear life. But it was pretty funny, just the turn of events. Cause I think the video itself is just, you see my little head slowly going into oblivion and yeah, he was getting a breath. Oh gosh, that was my one last breath. And I think I realized, like I realized what was happening. Did you wear one of those vests with the air where you can pull the air chambers or whatever? Yeah. So pretty much everybody now at this point has has one of those on out there. It's something I think it's, you don't want it to be the only thing out there, keeping you safe and keeping you alive. You really want to rely on training to do all that, but it is something that's so helpful to have just because it does give you that extra bit of protection out there. And I did end up pulling my vest on that one. It definitely helped me pop up a bit more. And then I came up smiling. I honestly came up laughing because of the entire situation, because I had survived something so crazy. And then it also just because of everything that happened, I tomahawked down a wave, went over the falls and came up and I had a great tow partner who was ready to grab me. The second I popped up, which was great too. Who is your tow partner when you go on tour at John's? Yeah. So a lot of the time jaws it's someone named nano. He's an amazing, he's actually a tattoo artist from Maui. He's amazing tattoo artist. And he's done a lot of water safety at jaws in the past, and I'm lucky enough to have him in my corner for when the waves get big. And then a lot of the time when it's smaller and we're not a job, they'll either go toe Jeffrey Spencer, or my good friend, rich Lenny. We spend a lot of time on that Maui artery and get to enjoy that, which is so fun, just because you get to surf with pretty much just friends and catch endless waves and you don't have to paddle back out. And I think that's probably one of my favorite things to do when the winter months are upon us just cause it's so awesome to be out there and share a lineup with just a couple other people. Yeah. Having the jet-ski just makes it feel a lot safer to always, cause it's, I, don't why the sound always comes on. Sorry, but yeah, I just having the jet ski to makes it feel a lot more safe and you always have someone that can pick you up again. But but yeah, I can only imagine, so on that wipe out that we were watching, did you pull the rip cord or did you just come back up without it? I did end up pulling the rip cord or the cord yet just because I got so like initially like Tomahawk down the wave, I'm sure as you saw in that video and it's so many somersaults that I was already at that point so in shock and out of breath that I felt like I should just play it safe and pull to make sure that I popped up as quick as possible. And then it's also a thing where, the quicker you pop up, even if you can handle the whole down the more energy you're going to have in the West tax, you're going to feel. So for me, it's almost like saving myself and giving myself energy for the remainder of the session too. And I had enough cartridges in my vest that I was able to pull and pop back up. And although the wipe out was scary, it wasn't quite as bad as I initially thought. So it was it was all good in the end. And an interesting story came out of it too. Was that the worst wipe out you ever had or do you, have you had worst ones? I don't know. I think visually that was definitely the worst wipe out I've ever had, but I think I've probably I in the jaws contest last year I fell on my first wave and I think that was probably a worst wipe out, but it all blends together after a while. I think that was definitely the most visually exciting and crazy to look at. You did the paddle in contests at jaws. So tell us about that. I think, for me probably to date, that was one of the best days of my life. I've always dreamed of surfing jaws since I was a little girl. I've gone down to watch it with my dad. We've hiked down to the cliff. And I honestly like never, I didn't ever know if I really would have the opportunity to get out there and if I had the chance. And so when that day came and I got the call and I was asked if I wanted to compete in that event it was a dream come true. And it was a magical experience. And I think it was typical Mallee fashion. It was incredibly windy and the conditions were crazy and hectic, but being out there and sharing a lineup with just a couple of other people at a wave, like that is so incredible. And then the fact that I was, I got pounded, I survived and then I also was able to complete a ride and pull off in the channel was. One of the best feelings ever. So yeah, I'm so fortunate that I have that opportunity and I came in third, I believe in that event. And I'm really looking forward to hopefully getting to compete in that again and yeah. And giving it all I got. Cause it was so amazing to be out there in that lineup. And I'm excited to return to that. Yeah. It seems like you're just getting started too. Cause like how old are you now? I'm 19. Yeah. You're still a kid, so hold on. Young lady I should say, but yeah. It's awesome that you're at your age already. I think at that time you were probably 18, or 17 or 18 though. You're already charging waves like that to pop up paddling in nonetheless. So yeah. How do you compare, how would you compare like paddling into the wave versus getting towed into it? Yeah, I think it's such a, it's a very different kind of thing because with the towing, you have so much more control initially, just cause your tone to the wave before it even breaks. And you have a lot more time to prepare, but I think with the paddling, it's also so different because you're alone out there. Like you don't have a jet ski coming to, tell you under the wave, it's up to you to choose the waves that you're paddling on. It's up to you to get yourself in those positions. And so I think they're two really different things when it is super windy. It's really nice to have the option to tow on Maui. And when you do have the rare opportunity to paddle out there it's a whole other thing. Cause I think it's just that much more rewarding when you can pile yourself alone into a wave like that and pull off into the channel. It's an incredible feeling, no matter how small the wave is just being out in that line up and being able to successfully complete a ride out there is it's really cool. So I think, yeah, to answer your question, it's definitely really different, but both of them have their own really amazing kind of different aspects. So th the situation, it looks like a nightmare jaws bearing like reading right in the impact zone in the wave coming down right now. It's right on top of your head. That was the wipe out I was talking about earlier. That was that one. Definitely it rattled me a little bit, but it was really fun to come out the other side and be okay. And I ended up getting more pounded. I think I fell on the first wave of the set and then. I have a friend out there who always tells me, never go on the first wave of the set. Of course, I went on the first wave of the set, which is that way. And I ended up getting more pounded by the second wave than I was like, I initially got by the first wave. Yeah. It looks like the first one. You said the barrel. Yeah, exactly. But I learned my lesson the hard way and now I know. But yeah, that was definitely an experience. You're brave. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about I guess this show is supposed to be about wing foiling, but you're doing, you're doing so many different sports that I just want to touch base a little bit about the other sports you do too, but so yeah. Tell us about downwind foiling. Do you do it mostly, I guess you still doing mostly with the paddle or do you also do just prone foiling on a prom board? I love downwind foiling. It's super cool. I think I was so in the sup downwind being without a foil for the longest time and adding a foil to the mix, it's just like the dream scenario, because you're going that much faster and you have that much more ability and kind of to move around through the ocean and fully take advantage of the bumps. So for the most part, being on Maui and doing a Mikko run, I'm so used to having a paddle in my hands that we will use a paddle most of the time, just because when you do paddle out of Mullica Goltz, which is where 99% of the time we launched our downwinders from there aren't really waves to catch with a prone board and you can dock start and pump off from Flatwater, but it does make it a lot harder. And so usually I'll use a paddle just because I'm used to having one. It doesn't add that much more. Equipment for me. And I know occasionally if you can, the waves are big enough. You can catch little waves and do shorter downwinders, but I think you could also go out a lot farther when you have a paddle too, just cause in the event that you do fall I can just pump myself up pretty much anywhere I need to be. Which also it adds a level of security too. I think there's part of it. When you don't use a paddle, it's it's exciting and it adds a level of uncertainty. If you do fall, you just don't have the option to, but when you do have a paddle, you have more freedom to take risks and work on doing turns and going faster versus playing it safe. Yeah. Awesome. There's a pretty big group of guys here on Oahu now doing just downwinders on their prone boards, but they, they stay closer to the surf. So if they do fall in, they can paddle back and and just get started in with some white, light washer or, an on an insight breaking wave versus trying to start on the Oh, in the open ocean, which is super hard. I'm sure. We've seen, I've seen videos of Dave Kalama just like paddling on a long prone board with those paddles on his hands and just like powering himself into the waves. But that looks incredibly hard. Really? Yeah, no, that's actually, that is like completely, it's amazing too. I actually saw his son. Austin Kalama, who's an incredible foiler wing foil or big wave surfer, et cetera. And I saw that Dave was using those hand planes to down one foil and Austin was actually using them at jaws, which was really cool and a wild theory. Cause you can just get into the wave so much earlier. So I'm really curious to see what the two of them are going to do with those hand plans. Cause they're, I don't think they've been used a whole lot in the ocean sports world, but it'll be cool to see where they go and yeah, the fact that Dave can get up without a paddle, like it's certainly is really exciting. And I'm curious to try it one day. Just to see, because I think at that point sky's the limit, so it'd be cool to mess around with that. Me doing a down winder with some friends it's been really fun to see the progression of foiling. And, I think at first it was just, windswept people and got a little bit of everybody, but now there's so many different people coming from so many different sports and I used to never be able to do downwinders with certain friends. And now I have people, I have some good friends who are professional kiters and they've gotten into wing foiling, and now we can all go on downwinders together and. It's really fun and opens up so many new possibilities for everybody in the water sports world. So I think it's really exciting that this is caught on as much as it's caught on and I hopefully continues to progress as much as it's progressing at this point. Yeah. Super impressive. What you're doing any actually, yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about your technique. When for jumping can you give some pointers on jumping? Like how you do the takeoff and like just walk us through a jump on the Wingfield board? Yeah. I think equipment is super crucial in these moments because if you're on a huge clunky board, it's going to be a lot harder to get yourself up and going. Or at least out of the water with the board, I think up and going, it will be easier. So I think making sure that you're on a smaller prone board is super super nice and having a wing that you're fully powered up on. I. Pretty much all the time, unless I am trying back flips or something, or I it's crazy one deal, use it for a meter. I don't ever go smaller most of the time. And so for me, I think like the biggest technique thing is really knowing how to use that foil and the edge back rail of your board to your advantage. As you can see, usually I keep my upper body going just straight, like sideways, and then I'll bring my lower body and my legs and I'll throw them up when the very last second you can see it, how I drive my board into the wind and drive my board like up above. And that's what really gets the foil to launch out of the water and really gets that like final pop. And then it also lets you stretch your body up too, which kind of gets you prepared for the landing. Cause sometimes if you get all hunched up in a ball, it's a lot harder to land versus if you're spread out and you let the wind bring everything back together and back in place at the right moment. It really seals the deal. So that's how I do it at least. And also helps you cause sometimes if you do jump, just going straight down when you end up getting a lot of momentum downwind, that it makes it a lot harder to to land successfully. Versus if you do use those those swells and bumps to your advantage, it can help you get that initial release from the water. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I do it at least. Yeah, no, I totally agree. That's what I always tell people too, is like probably the most important thing is to really turn up wind before you take off. Because that, that having that upwind momentum lets you hang in the wing a lot more than cause if you go jump straight with, sideways to the wind, you lose the pressure in the wing and you don't get that upwards lift. So super important to really be carved into the wind before the, before you take off. Yeah, most definitely. I think that's probably one of the most crucial aspects of it. And then I've also found that once I am in the air this was something that I learned with lots of hard landings, but once you are up in the air, you really want to like sheet in with the wing so that you hold and you don't just free fall out of the air, but you pull in with your, I think your right hand if you're going in, but just your lower hand, you pull in with the wing, just so it does capture more wins. So you don't end up just completely dropping out of the sky, but it's more of just a gentle float down to the water. Yeah. You used your wing almost like a parachute when you're coming down. So he coming down softly or gently fall as much as possible, right? Yeah. No, those are good planners. Let's talk a little bit about equipment for for winging yeah. Have you, do you have the new wasp V2 wing? So can you tell us about that versus the original wasp Wayne? I just recently actually started using the V2 and all of these videos, I believe they're all, I haven't posted anything with the V2 because it's yet to come out. But yeah, I'm really excited about the progression and the direction that ozones taking it in. It's super exciting. I think from everything that I've tried, it's by far the favorite wing that I've I've written so far and it's really cool. Just, the V1 and the V2, both of them it's they're really good and all sorts of different types of conditions. Cause I feel like certain wings I've tried, they really thrive in light when conditions are they're really good enough or and like absolutely new wind. But with this it's really cool. Cause I feel like it's it's really Good and both types of wins. So whether it's, barely lending enough and you use a five meter or you go on your three meter because it's nuking 35, 40 knots the entire range can handle completely different line and range of wind, which is super cool. And I think the adjustments that they've made from the V1 to V2, or just those final touches needed to really seal the deal and make it in my opinion, one of the best wings out there. And I think it's definitely the one that I would choose to ride whether or not I was sponsored by them or not. And yeah, I'm really excited for kind of everybody to get, to try it and to hear everybody's thoughts. They added some really cool new additions that are super exciting and some new windows. So it's easier to see some different handle placements and yeah, and overall just the shape. It just makes it a lot more agile and responsive and you're just in control that much more. So I think if you have the opportunity to get your hands on one, it would be really fun to try. Yeah. We were getting a bunch soon where they're supposed to be shipping, I think in a week or two, where it's supposed to get them in our shops are eager to try it. But like visually, is there a difference in the width of the wing or the size of the leading edge or what's changed and how has the handling different than the V one? Yeah they actually had, they added a window, which is great. Cause I think you're always riding blind without it. So now you're gonna be able to see through and make sure. Yeah. So actually regarding the window, would you say having a window is an advantage? Is that something that you appreciate having, or do you feel like it's not really necessary? I guess that's one of those debates that our people are having, yeah. Cause I think like with an added window, you do sacrifice certain materials that have to be used, et cetera, et cetera. But I think. For the overall kind of the sacrifice you'd have to make. I think it is totally worth having, just because, there's a lot less, less likely chance you're going to run over one of your friends that way. Cause you can see what direction you're heading in. So personally I think it's a great addition and it's not the entire way as clear plastic. So it really doesn't affect the the writing ability at all. It just does add something and it makes you that much more comfortable and I got pretty accustomed to not having it. So the fact that it is there now, and I don't have to lift up my wing to see where everybody is and if I'm going to run someone over is it's really nice and convenient too. And then I think, yeah, some of the new aspects, they have changed the shape a little bit, but I think technically like in the technical and tech specs of it all, like they've added to that you pump up the center Strat and the leading edge separately, which is really cool because I think I had multiple occasions where I would pop a wing or break it and you're swimming home with a completely deflated wing. Versus if you do end up popping one part of it, that way it's going, one part of it will stay deflated, which is great. And it makes it a lot easier for you to make it in with your wing and hopefully fix it too. So yeah, I'm excited to see everybody get out there and try it out and see everybody's different theories and ideas on it. But I think they've they're continuing to progress swinging as a whole, which is exciting. Yeah. I like having two separate valves too, because yeah. Before you always have to push the air out of the center strut, and then it takes forever to get down and then pushed the wind back on the beach. Yeah. Not that easy. That's cool. What foils do you use and tell us about the foils and the, and then the boards, but foils first. Yeah, I I have the opportunity I ride for MFC and for the hydro whole company. And the relationship between the two, the hydrofoil company is it's an R and D company, so they don't really mass manufacture anything and then MFC manufacturers it for the hydro company. And I pretty much used the Hydro's foils for 90% of the writing that I'm doing. And I think for me, like it's really amazing to get to ride on all of them just cause they are, they're an incredibly versatile set of foils, whether you want to go toe foiling which in that back foot video, that's what I was riding. I have an a thousand wing that I use. That's probably the foil I use the most out of all of these. That's what I use for winging. That's what I use for toe foiling. And then when it gets into the more surf boiling side of things, I will use a little bit bigger foil, which is usually between the 10 75 Hydrus foil or the Or the 1250 hydrofoil. And then when I do that, downwinders, if I'm not using something that's been custom built by the hydrophone company and that's, a high aspect foil, if I'm just going out to mess around, I'll use the 1400 Hydro's foil because that's also, it's also great for them when being in it. It adds that little bit extra lift with the bigger size, but it's still totally numerable when you are down winning and, navigating through the bumps. So wing wise, yeah, it's really nice to have a foil set up like that where you can just switch out the front wings and the sizes. And it's still very similar riding, but it really does handle such a wide variety of foils. And I'm excited to see what these companies get up to next and how they continue to progress foiling. And then as for the mask, which I think that varies for me quite a bit, I usually go back and forth between an 80 centimeter and a 70 centimeter mast. Unless I'm telling in bigger waves, and then I'll go up to something longer, like a 90 or maybe a hundred, but that doesn't happen most of the time when I'm winging. So like in this video, for example, I use an 80 just because it does give me that extra level of kind of support and you're able to gain so much more speed without having to watch for popping out of the water. And it just, it adds that level of insurance almost that you do have more time to react if it feels like your fall is going to pop out of the water. And then when I'm jumping too, I feel like it does help me gain speed and get me more momentum when I am about to jump to. And then when I'm down foiling, I use an 80 again. It does make it a little bit harder to pop out of the water just because your foils under the water a little farther, but. In the long run, it really gives you the ability to jump jumps a little bit easier and not have to risk popping out of the water. And then when I'm just surf boiling for fun and, small waist, high waves, I will use the 70 mass just because I think risking hitting the reef a hundred times in one session is it's not worth it. So I'll use the 70 and that just, it really gives you the ability to turn and card. Like you're on a short board almost like this. So I think that's also a really good reason to use the 70 when you're in smaller waves. Yeah, no, that's a good good summary. I noticed that like, when I used for winging for a while, I used a one meter mass for winging. Which, it is nice going over chop and stuff like that, but you do give up it just feels more tippy a little bit. And then also for jumping, it's just your, it's just a longer way out of the water, and it's just I like 80 or 90 seems to be the sweet spot for winging for me too. But, and then obviously for surfing or anytime you're in a shallower area, then it's nice to have something a little bit shorter. Yeah. Saves your foil and for the reefs and the turtles underneath you. Yeah. What about the what about the tailwind? Have you played around with the tailwind wings in different shins and stuff like that? Can you maybe tell us what you, your, you learned from playing around with the tailings. Yeah, definitely. I've I've messed around with pretty much a little bit of everything. I think my favorite tailing I use right now is the two 25 MSC wing. It's a great it's works for everything. I use it for down winning for winging, for surf foiling. And then also if I do want to go a little bit more aggressive or I'm going in bigger waves, I'll use the 200, which is a little smaller and it just adds such, an like addition of turning and maneuverability and the foil, which is really fun too. And then I think for me, what I've recently been experimenting the most with, which is super exciting is the lengths of the fuselage. So usually like when I first started winging and getting into all this and I'd use a 63 centimeter fuselage and then I slowly got shorter and I went to a 58, which was really fun and it just adds, it does make the foil a little bit more tippy, but it also adds like a level of responsiveness that I wasn't getting what the 63. And then it also just like when you are in the surf or you are trying to jump and turn up when at the last second, it really just lets the foil respond to you that much more. And then I recently tried a 53, which is, I think is short as I've gone so far and I haven't tried anything different, but I think right now, like that's my favorite setup to ride. I have my 80 mass with my a thousand front wing, my 53 fuselage and then my two 25 back wing. I found that for me works the best, just because it does let you card, even though you are on a longer mass, which sometimes will inhibit your your turning radius and your ability to turn, it really doesn't honestly affect you that much, just because I do have a set up underneath the the mass that just lets you turn it feels like you're like surfing on a short board or something it's really incredible, super loose. Have you noticed that, like you, it's easier to turn when you have a, more of an angle on your tailing, like a with a more, like more lift angle on the shim. Have you played around with the shins at all? I have. Yeah. So I use the red shim, the red or the blockchain most of the time, I think in the MFC Like lime, the white shim is neutral. The black shim is plus one and the red shim is plus two. So the Red's like the highest amount of lift you can get. And I don't feel a lot of additional turning ability when I sh switch out the shims. I definitely feel different. It doesn't go as fast when I use the red versus the black or the white. But I think also the foil does tend to be a little bit more jumpy when I use the white and it'll dive a lot faster or it'll do things that aren't quite as expected that I don't want it to do. And so I feel like I have it more in control and I do use the red sham, which is why I predominantly use that. But I haven't felt a lot of effects with the turning, but it's more on the speed and kind of just the control and the lift with it. I've tried the MSC only a few times, but I've noticed like I was using the white CIM and I felt like when I was going into the turn, it almost felt like I wanted to drop, like you had to add to lean back in the turn. So it would stay up, which was weird to me because most forests tend to lift when you go into the turn. So yeah. Did like almost the opposite of what I was expecting. So yeah, I can see that probably the more the red or black shin would probably be the one I would use too. Okay. And then what about boards? What do you use for boards? Yeah. So I'm lucky enough to get to work with Katie surfing. He shapes most of Kai's boards. She shapes the Spencer's boards, Jeffery Tiffin. And it's really cool because I think all of us have given him different parts of advice and he's shaped these incredible foil boards, whether you are down winning or you're winging, or you're surf foiling, he's really mastered the shape and he's made some amazing boards to work with. So he's pretty much what I'm using right now. Not just in the foiling, but in the surfing. And he's my sole board sponsor at this point, which is really exciting. And yeah, I think for the foiling side of things, he's really gotten it all dialed I have for winging and prone foiling. I use the same board. It's a four, three. I think it's 25 liters, I believe 24, 25 liters. So it's pretty small. It definitely sinks on me. It acts is it's about the same size is one of my short boards. So it's the same same amount of, leader's just squished into a lot smaller board. And that's, it's amazing. He's added, like if you flip the board over, I wish I had it and we had it with me right now, so I can show you guys but yeah, if you do end up turning the board over and you get to look at the divots and all of these technical things, he's added where, where he has like a step up where the foil plate is, and it really lets you pop your foil out of the water that much easier, which I think is something that certain boards struggled to do. Cause it does feel like the board's almost been suctioned onto the water. And with this, it doesn't feel like that at all. It really feels like it wants to pop out and release and give you all the control that the foil wants to give you as well. And and yeah, so the amount of progression that I've seen over like the past year with him and these boards and getting to work with Chi and everybody into making them a foil board that performs as well as it performs is been really cool. And I'm excited to see kind of work continues to grow and go to. No, it's awesome. To just have one board that you can use for pretty much. Yeah. Prone, foiling and wing foiling. Very much the one board quiver that you can just put in the back of your car or whatever. It's that's the one thing I like about wing folding houses, how simple it is and how small that equipment is. You don't need to have a huge, standard Palo, Reece board or whatever, like that, everything fits inside the car and stuff like that. It's pretty nice. But what about foot straps? Do you use the same foot straps for winging and prone, flailing or use different straps? Yeah, I have four or five pairs of the same foot strap. I use it for whinging, for profiling, for tow in surfing, in big waves. So pretty much I feel like just for me, it makes it really easy to be able to rely on just one foot strap and note, no matter what sport I'm doing, it's always going to be the same. And it's always going to respond to me the same. I don't know the name of it, but they're just like the declined foot straps. They're black and white. They're super sturdy. Oh, was it really fat ones? Yeah. This yeah. What are they called again? I forget, but yeah, they don't make them anymore. Unfortunately we can't like, I love those too. I forgot what they're called now, but those are great straps and super. Yeah, I believe, I think they still might have a couple of pairs haiku, cannery. So if you're over here at all, you can go grab her. Exactly. But for me, those are my favorite bootstraps, just cause I had a couple times I tried different ones in the past. And I felt like when I was prone foiling and I lay on them, like I'd pop up to get up on the wave and put my foot feet and the foot straps and they like wouldn't pop back up. They weren't springing enough. So like the footstep would just be pressed to the board and I'd be trying to fit my foot in there and it wouldn't work. And then I ended up, either spending the entire way, figuring that out or falling off. So for me, I think they are pretty stiff and they can be uncomfortable to lay on, but it's worth the sacrifice if Still having footsteps that are that reliable and that easy to use. So that's pretty much what I use. Every time I do end up going with fresh straps and occasionally I'll go prone, foiling without foot straps, just to mess around and just see how many waves I can pump in a row. But yeah, most of the time that's on every foil board I have other than the downloading. Oh, I was going to ask you, like, when you were growing up, do you have an early, like your earliest childhood memory of the ocean where you're like, Oh, this is so much fun or I love this, or, like something that you remember about like one of your first memories that, where you fell in love with being in the ocean. Yeah. I think there's quite a few from like different ages. But my family had this thing when I was younger where we'd spend Sundays at the beach. So we call them surf Sundays. And there's a wave on the West side of Maui called poo Amaanah. And that's where I grew up surfing. That's like where I learned to surf. That's where I caught my first wave by myself. And I think it was, I have one vivid memory. It was a day middle of summer, I think, I believe, I don't know. I was, I think I was probably like three or four at the time. And my parents would do the push and catch strategy, which is like I'd paddle myself out to the lineup. My dad would be standing in the waves. He pushed me onto a wave. I'd stand up by myself, catch the wave. And then my mom would make sure I didn't go into the shore break and Tableau to the beach and she'd send me back out to my dad. And there was one day that I remember doing it and. We had ended up, we got a bunch of my other younger friends at the time to come over. And it was just one of the, like for me, like one of my earliest memories of loving the water and feeling that joy of not only enjoying it myself, but spending it with other people that I love and and care for. So I think that for me, like being able to catch waves by myself, or at least being on my own board and being out there with my parents and other friends and family, I think that was for me, like what I remember most vividly and remember falling in love with it from that moment. That sounds awesome. So your parents support your water, sports ambitions and stuff. Is that, is this what you want to do as a career or what are your goals and plans for you? As you grow up. Yeah. I wouldn't be able to do this if it weren't for their support. And my mom, my dad, my brother, all of them, they're so supportive with everything. If I ever need help, they drop anything to come and help me, which for me has been, a game changer. I wouldn't be doing any of this. If it weren't for them giving me the opportunities that they've given me. And I'm so grateful for that. And yeah, I think at this point it's really hard just with COVID and everything and the way that the world is right now it's hard to make a plan. And, but for me, if I could have my dream scenario, I want to be doing this as a career for the rest of my life. This is what I love spending time in the ocean. I want to eventually help the ocean and And give back because it's given me so much and it's fulfilled me so much so far in my life. And yeah, I think if I could choose one thing and if I could choose how I do want to pursue the next 10 years, I want to continue to make myself the best water women that I can be. I'd love to be the best water woman out there. I'd love to be performing at the top level and all of these sports that I'm doing right now. And then I continue to learn other sports too. I really want to get into kiting and windsurfing hopefully, too. So I think, yeah, if I could have an ideal scenario would be getting to pursue this for a lifetime and getting to enjoy the water for as long as possible. And yeah, I think, I'm trying to set that up so that's what I have the opportunity to do. And I'd also love if eventually that doesn't work out one day. I'd also love to go back to school, probably. I guess we'll see, I'm trying to get my options open, but I do have a goal in mind and I hope that I can achieve it one day. Okay. Talk a little bit about other than water sports. Do you do any other like cross training or do you have any other hobbies and other interests in life? Yeah, I I have a couple I've gotten a mountain biking last summer, actually a lot. So I really love mountain biking. We have some really fun trails on Maui. The macula forest is amazing. So getting to do that, and I think that's great cross training cause you're biking uphill and then you turn around and go downhill. And that definitely adds a really good cardio workout into my daily active, like activity routine. And then cross training wise, I spent a lot of time running, whether it's on flat ground or on the beach or through sand or whatever. And then I also spend a lot of time in the gym. There's a really cool gym on Maui and I get to work with some of the best athletes there, and it's really fun. We all get get a great workout in together and not just surfers, every type of athlete or water athlete on Maui that Molly has to offer usually goes to that gym. So I spend a lot of time in there and it's really inspiring and cool to get to, spend time with all of these people that I idolize and look up to. And then like off of all things active, I really love to draw. I think that's one of my biggest, like at-home passions. If I'm just here and I don't have any work to do, and it's been a long day and it's just a nice way for me to decompress. I love to sit down and doodle and draw and yeah, it's been something I love. It's something fun to travel with too, just cause, if I'm not reading a book, I can sit down and just sketch something out or, draw something. All right. You're an artist. So that's awesome. Can you can you tell us about a typical day in your life? Like a typical day in the life of Annie? What's it like, what do you do? Yeah, I think right now with winter still being in place, it definitely varies depending on the time of year, but I think if I were to say like right now, a typical day in my life is I'd wake up. I waking up pretty early. I usually wake up around six every morning, which is before the sun comes up and I'll leave my house. Maybe we'll get some, eat some breakfast, really fast, leave my house. And usually I'll go and check the waves for surfing. And if it looks fun for surfing, I'll go and get a quick session. And usually with some other friends. And then if it doesn't look ideal for surfing, I'll go for a run just because I feel like, I have the opportunity to do all these things and running really helps me even out all of the different things that I do. And sometimes I feel like. Foiling a make me lopsided because I am just in one stance most of the time and running helps me straighten everything out, which is nice. So if the waves, aren't amazing, which with Maui there's definitely quite a few days where it's blown out already or too small. I'll go for a run. And then after that, usually I'll come home and if there's anything I need to get done on the computer, or, running errands, et cetera, et cetera, I'll do that. And then usually I try and find time for a couple other sessions through the day. I'll go and check it for downwind or for winging maybe another surf session in the evening. And then a lot of afternoons I spend in the gym too. So I think it's all very dependent on the conditions, but a typical day for me is usually three or four sessions on the water. And then also, enjoying time running or in the gym too, if I'm given the opportunity. That's impressive. Now you got a lot of youthful energy, you know what, one of the really cool things about weighing that I've noticed is that it seems to be really popular with young kids. Like I'm surprised like how, yeah. How I think a lot with stand up paddling, a lot of times when kids are into it's kinda cause their parents that kind of got them into it or bought them the gear and are growing with them and stuff like that, where. As for wing filing, like I recently had a kid come into the shop and I don't know, he's like maybe 13 or 14 years old. And he had saved up all his money. He came with his dad, but the dad was like I have nothing to do with this is, his purchase. He saved up his money and he wants to get away, cause his buddies are doing it and he's been surf foiling. Now he wants to get into wing foiling. And I don't know, it just, it seems it's, it is an expensive sport. So it's, it's hard for young kids to get into it, I think. But there seems to be an attraction to it, like almost like skateboarding or something like that where it's a cool sport versus some of the other like wind surfing and stand-up paddling. I think we're never really that considered cool among young kids. So w why do you think that is. I dunno. I think it's part of the foiling thing, like foiling a couple of years ago really came back into fourth and I think, all sorts of people love to do it, whether it is, a grom just starting to surf. I think they're super interested in it versus someone who's been surfing windsurfing or kiting for, 40 plus years. I think it really has an attraction for every person who loves being on the water. And I think it's just an extension of that with winging kiting and windsurfing are the two main wind sports and they've been around for a long time. And I think with this new rise of whinging is like a smaller baby Windsport that's coming up. I think it's. Caught the excitement of a lot of probably younger kids, just because it is so new and fresh. And I think, the people who are excelling in the sport, like Kyle Lenny's and they make it look so high-performance and so exciting. And it's something that's so new and it's progressing so fast. I think that's probably a big reason why, so many kids are getting into it just because it really is and that's why I started doing it just cause it looks so fun and so exciting and something so new that you, can't not want to try it. And I think I think, and I hope it'll continue to progress and that kids will continue to get into it. Cause I think they're the future. And if we want the sport to continue to grow, we're going to need all sorts of different generations to be excited about it. And yeah, that story that you mentioned about the kid coming in and saving up for a ring is really cool. Cause you think, that's like something you get from the surfing side of things and the fact that it's continuing to whinging and foiling and all of that is really cool too. Yeah, and I haven't seen a lot of young women getting into it or girls. What about Molly? Do you see are you like, do you have any are you like a role model to other girls that you see out there or what do you see on that side for the females? Yeah, I hope to be a role model. That would be amazing. But there's a couple of girls here who, yeah, they're improving really fast and they're charging. That's super cool to see. I have a good, if one of my closest friends whose name is Olivia Jenkin, she's a professional kite surfer and she's incredible. And she's gotten amazing at it and it's really fun to have someone female at my level and get to go with her and. And there's a couple other younger girls, there's one girl named Rio on Maui. Who's absolutely killing it. And it's really cool to see her so into it. And so excited about foiling all the different sizes of wings and also just getting into winging itself. And then yeah, it has been cool. And I've had the opportunity to take a couple of girls foiling, not only winging, but foiling and also winging. And yeah, it's cool to see the fire get lit inside them. And I hope that they continue to want to get out there. And I haven't had the opportunity to wing in many other places other than Hawaii and Maui, but I really hope that when I do have the opportunity to go and travel and get out there that I'll see the same thing, which is other females getting out there and enjoying the sport. Cause I think, it's for everybody and if we can all get out there and enjoy the ocean or whatever, body of water we're on, that's that's really special. Yeah. Awesome. So who do you go out with the most? I know it's always more fun to go on the water with friends, so who is your like group? What's your posse of wing feathers? Yeah. I think probably my most the people I go with the most is Olivia, my friend that I mentioned Jeffrey and fin I go with, I love hanging out with them. They're like my brothers. Cause we went to school together when we were younger. So I've known them forever. One of my closest friends Ridge, I go out with him all the time. I see Kyle out there constantly. I'm sure, Katie Maui came to wild. I go up there and see him out there all the time. So honestly Malley is such a tight community and especially in the water sports community, that pretty much anybody, who winged foils on Maui we'll share sessions constantly. So I think those people are probably some of the people I see the most consistently, but I'm constantly running into people and having, fun sessions with with all sorts of different water, sports community people on Maui. So for future interviews for this show, who do you, who should I talk to next week? Who do you recommend talking to? Oh, I don't know. I love to see Jeffrey get on here. Cause I think it'd be really fun to hear the original back flip King. Talk about all of his different style techniques. And honestly, I think anybody, I think it'd be really cool to hear another girl talk to whether it is Olivia or someone else outside of Maui. Yeah, I don't think you can go wrong, but I think talking to Jeffrey would be really cool. Yeah. Maybe I'll ask you to connect me with him. Yeah. That'd be great to talk to Jeffrey and then yeah. Other women too, for sure. I think that's one of the things that, that Baltz Miller mentioned that we sh it shouldn't just be guys, we don't want it to be just like a guy sport. We want it to be inclusive. So that, I think that's why I'm happy to have you on the show too. W a lot of people have been struggling, during the pandemic being stuck inside and, maybe feeling anxiety and whatever. Has it a pandemic have had any silver linings for you? Like something that has there been things that are better than before to you? Or like how has it affected you? Yeah, I think it's an incredibly hard time for everybody. Just, the world itself is hurting and that's always really hard to see, but for me my dad usually travels a lot for work, or he did at least before all of this. And he hasn't been just because of everything he's been working from home. So I think Getting my entire family home in one place for this long. It was the majority of last year was really special because usually we're always running around in different places, in different parts of the world. And having us all together and home for this long was really special. So I think for me, like outside of the water sports side of things, that was something that I I found and we were able to, make something good out of a bad situation. And that was something I'm r

For more information on Alan, visit: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPKTLpvmGrT0JN_NGHv4BNQ/featured Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AlanCadiz/posts Lesson business: https://hstwindsurfing.com/hst/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hstmaui/ I hope you enjoyed this episode, more interviews coming soon!   Episode Transcript: Aloha. It's Robert Stehlik with blue planet surf. Welcome to the third episode of the blue planet show all about Wingfoot foiling. And this episode is with Alan CodeHS and he is such an inspiration from the very early days of wing filing. He's put out great videos and content and all is always on the latest equipment. So it's really cool to be able to talk to him about the history of our young sport. And I just wanted it to say, honestly, that, I'm a little bit of an introvert. So for me to be able to reach out to these people and ask all these questions and what I want to know about. Yeah. And all that from my home office in the garage is such a cool thing and I really enjoying it. But to be honest, also, it is a lot of work to, set the appointments, prep for the interviews, film it, edit it, and then post it. So I'm not going to be able to do this on a weekly basis. But I'm shooting for every two to four weeks. I'm going to post a new show. This is my third show and I have another show lined up with Annie Reichert another interview coming up soon, and then I have a few more in in the works. Definitely going to keep them coming, but just not on a weekly basis. And of course, if you can't watch this whole video on YouTube, it's, it is a long interview. You can also listen to it as a podcast and on Android or Apple devices, you just open your podcast app and search for the blue planet show, and you'll be able to listen to it while you're driving or doing chores and so on. You can do other things while you're listening as well. So without further ado, please welcome the third guests to the blue planet show. Alan, Kunduz welcome to the show. It's great to have you. You've done so many great videos about wing filing and teaching people out to wink. I really appreciate that. And thank you for joining me on the show. So can we start a little bit about your background and just tell us a little bit how, your background and how you got into wink foiling eventually. Thank you, Robert. Thank you for having me on the show. I've enjoyed your first step. So it's yeah, in a wing foiling for me, like so many people have been, life-changing, it's so addictive and my path to wing foiling has been by chance, really. I come from a background of water sports But it turned out that my neighbor put together a wing to try on a foil board. Let me back up yeah start with how you grew up and all that, like way from the beginning. I'm from Kailua. Boy went to Caldwell high school grew up right near Kyla beach, just a short 32nd walk down to the beach and We lived in enchanted lakes when I was I think I went to third grade elementary, and then we moved down to the beach when I was 12 and it didn't take long before I started surfing. And the neighbor had a Hoby cat that I had access to. And when I. Turned 18. I started wind surfing. I worked at Froome sailing company. I don't know if you remember that little boat store, as you come into Kyla. And Dean was my mentor in the early days, taught me how to sail, set me up with my first wind surfer. Gave me time off to go winging or sorry, wind surfing. When the wind was up on and back then wind surfing was the rage, the addiction. And I. I went to college, but then I dropped out so that I could go wind surfing. I had a opportunity to go to Malaysia, to compete for Neil pride back then. And I thought this opportunity doesn't come along too often. I'm going to take a semester off and go to Malaysia and wind surf. And that turned into about a 10 year career in wind surfing, competitive wind surfing. And I ended up on Maui. The wind is so strong over here. I came over for a month to a two Winser for a month prior to one of the contests. And after the contest was over, I was pretty settled in and there wasn't any need to rush home and ended up staying on Maui on. And I had spent a number of years training and competing and, but I wondered, am I going back to college? What am I going to do? And I fumbled into teaching wind surfing and discovered I had a knack for it. And before too long, had a nice little business going teaching. High-end wind surfing, mainly jiving and water starting. But then people wanted to have their family and friends learn. So I started a beginner program and. The school grew. I've been based in high-tech surf sports for the last 30 years, but I worked with the majority of the shops here on Maui, teaching their clientele, the different water sports. So windsurfing was the main thing, but of course, when there was no wind, we'd teach them just going back to Kailua, growing up in Kayla. That was when Robbie nationals grew up in Kailua too. So did you went surf together with those guys? Robbie and Pete Cabrina and those guys, or? Funny, he has Pete Cabrini lived right next door, right over the next fence. Yeah. And I remember watching him wind surf and doing his first jumps and he. He was shaping boards and he was an inspiration. So I thought, okay, I gotta do this too. Robbie traveled in different circles. He was a little bit younger and it seemed to me he was always off on tour, but he brother, I went to school with his brother and Randy. Yeah. And we were partners in crime going over to windsurf diamond head. And I spent more time with Robbie. I'm sorry with Randy. Okay. Okay. So when, or how did the transition to wing foiling happened? Actually? Do you still windsurf or are you just mostly wing foiling now? Not so much wind surfing. I still run the wind surf school, although COVID has changed that right now, but my daughter is more into wind surfing than whinging. Although I'm trying to convert her to wing surfing on. From wind surfing kite surfing came along and that was all the rage. So I jumped into that and I live the kite surfing, eat, sleep tight surf, eat, sleep, kite surf did some competitions and did the whole peak, but then got over it and got more into sub paddling. We did a lot of sub. In fact, I got a picture here I can share. Yeah let's do some screen sharing. So we get a little bit of more visual stuff too. This was, we did a lot of competition. I don't know how many hundreds of Kosta runs I've done from a LICO down to Kahoot Harbor. Wouldn't be the equivalent of Hawaii, Kai to diamond head kind of thing on. That looks like one of the early SAC boards. Is that the one? No it's styrofoam, but yes, you're right. It's one of Mark rapper, horse SIC boards or sandwich Island construction. Yeah. And Mark is good. Friend of mine known him for decades. He and I, we did the sup paddling and then Kailani. Showed up with that sup board with the foil on it, that kind of rocked the world. And we looked at that and we're like, wow, that looks so cool. And backing up a couple of weeks from that video review Mark, perhaps worse. And my neighbor, Ken winter, and I were having dinner. And after a couple of bottles of wine, we've talked about. Taking one of Ken's foils and putting it on my board and Mark would do the classwork and we thought about, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to put the foil on the set board and we're going to try it out. And it never happened. And about two weeks later, Kai comes out with that video of him going down the coast now putting it together as one thing, but making it work, what Kyle did was exceptional, and I don't know if we would've had the. I don't think, I don't think we would have stuck with it as hard as it was, but after watching him, we were inspired. So we did get some foil boards, both Ken and Mark. And I, we got the foil boards and we started going from Alico when it was blowing 25, 30 knots. And right away, we learned it was really hard. And I had no foil experience and people were telling me, Oh, you got to learn behind a boat. You got to learn in the surf. And I'm like, I don't want to do that. I just want to do it going down the coast. And I was convinced I could do it. And eventually I got a LICO 200 and I could do it and I could stay up for hundreds of yards at a time. And at that point, everyone else was getting pretty good. I can remember one episode where we went. Was that on a really long race board, or what kind of board were you using at that time? At that point we were using I think they were like eight foot sup boards and we were just starting to figure out, and these were Mark was making them custom boards. We're just starting to figure out that the shorter, the board, the more easier it was to pump you didn't have that swing weight up front right on. We were getting smaller and smaller boards. And I have another picture here. Let me see if I can cue it up here. This board here. This was my latest sup board that Mark had shaped for me. I think it was just under six feet. That's about 85 liters had just the front strap, which I use to help pull up on the board, trying to get up on foil. And so it was about this time. That we were trying to go down the coast and having some success. Ken winner was right there with us and he actually was a skilled foiler. He could win sir foil. He could kite foil, but sup foil was tough for him. And the board he had was 130 liter fiberglass board. It was pretty heavy. And trying to pump that up on foil was really taking its toll on his shoulders. One afternoon he was out there in the driveway with this little inflatable wing and, we had seen wings have been around for a long time. And Ken winter is your neighbor, right? So you can see him in his, in your neighbor's driveway playing around with his inflatable toy. Yes. A little background on Ken he's been involved in wind surfing and water sports, his whole life. I first met him in Kailua and the, I think it was 1981 or 1982 Pan-Am windsurfing world cup. And he actually won the event. So I didn't really know him. I knew he was the winner. Kan winner was the winner. And then later on, when I went on tour, I competed with him the number of different venues. But he's always stayed with it as a board designer. Is that kite designer, windsurf designer, and probably the last few years more kite surfing. So he's he's getting new prototypes all the time out there, testing them in the Maui waters and the of wind. And so I knew he had access to, to prototypes. So anyway, he's out there with this inflatable wing and my first impression it was something like you'd get at K-Mart, a little blow up toy. And I thought, what is he doing with that? Can you explain that he was going to use it to get up on foil and go down the coast with us? And I thought he really wants to be out there with us. And then the entertainment began, we'd go out and Alico. And Mark and I would make a left turn and head towards Colley Harbor, and Ken would be going out to see like, where's he going? He'd go over the horizon before we'd see him. And then we'd seen him coming back and I didn't know it at the time, but he had a hard time. I'm going deep, a goofy foot. He needed to switch to regular foot to go deep or to go straight down, wind. And so it was difficult for him and he didn't like most of us, we go to the Flatwater spot, in the Harbor or maybe down to canola, I think on a wahoo, you go over to where is it near Pearl Harbor. I've seen some videos that K lagoon Island. Yeah, that's a good, big, beautiful spot there. So remember we're going out in 25, 30 knots, and he's trying to figure out how to go down wind. And it was entertaining for Mark and he had incredible yard sales where it's like, Oh, is he okay? Wait. Okay. Yeah, I see him. He's back on his board. Did our, Oh no, he's lost his wig. You'll give chance. We'll get the ring. And that happened a few times. And so this went on, I think it was may of 18 when you start. So not that long ago, really think about how quickly the sports progressed. That's true. So it was later towards the fall that Mark and I were waiting for him. And I saw him coming down the swell and he was surfing right. And surfing, left and surfing. And each time he would turn the wing. And I just looked down. I said, that is poetry in motion. I'm ready to try this. And at the end of the run he let me try it. And I fumbled out and fumbled in. But just that short little run, I got to my feet and got it going for a few seconds. And I'm like, okay, I want to try this some more. So that first wing was that like a prototype made by duotone or was it like who, how, who made it and how was it made, built and stuff like that? Duotone has a factory and they, I'm not even sure where it is in Asia or wherever they make their product. And he dials up a plan on his computer, sends it off via email and a short time later he's the FedEx truck is pulling up. Okay. So that first one, did it have a boom, like the wing foil or very first one had a stretch on it. Okay. And the, they had sewn some webbing on it. That was so flimsy that just after a couple, three or four runs, the webbing has had peeled off. Not, it just deteriorated. And then his first one with a boom, I'm not sure what he did. I think he went to the hardware store and he bought a mop or something and removed the, he had the dowel and the little brackets, and then he had lashed those brackets on. And then not too long after that, he was getting a guy here on Maui to 3d print a front end. It was about that time that I took an interest in wanting to try it. So we went down to canola and the first day I, like so many of us that got my knees were rubbed raw and what I was getting rides and I was staying up wind. And remember, I'd come to the sport with knowing how to foil and. Knowing how to sail both wind surf and kite surf. So the wing was pretty intuitive for me and knowing how to foil it came together. And I'm sure I've seen other people just step on and go right from the beginning, but Yeah, I think you have the background in wind surfing and you know how to use a foil, then it's a very easy transition. That's what Zane was saying too. Like the very first time he jumped on it, he was already trying to backflip and civic guts. Yeah, but that's in St. Schweitzer. So yeah. Anyway, the first few the first, second day I tried it, I fell on the boom and broke the front end, the 3d 3d printed front end. And I said, Ken, I can make one that won't break. I've got a TIG welder. And I welded up as simple front end and we were able to lash that on and that that made a huge difference. In the tightness of the rig now, coming from a windsurf background, I've always preferred the boom. It just feels more natural to hold the boom on. And I think Ken he's do a tone, has a couple of different models. They have the unit which has the wing, the handles as well. But I prefer the echo style. Yeah. I'm the same way. Cause this is my windsurfing background. I really liked the boom. And just being able to move your hands around and describe the boom without looking for the handle and stuff like that. But I guess recently I started using wings with handles too, and I kinda got used to that. And there's some advantages to to that, to the handles. I think one thing about the duo Tom booms is that they're add quite a bit of weight to the wing. And you do notice that when you try a later wing. They are coming out with a new model here soon, but the time by the time this interview airs, I think they'll have announced their new product. And I've got some video of that. Yeah, let's talk about that new that's the duotone slick wing, right? We've already seen the videos and stuff of it, which is an interesting concept. So it combines a an inflatable struck with a stiff boom kind of attached to it. Yes, let me see. So it's the slick incorporates the boom into the strep. One of the it's a lot lighter. Yeah. I don't know all the details, but I can tell you that the length of the boom here is the same for all the different sizes. I think they're going to go from a two and a half meter all the way up to a seven meter. With half increments. So four, four, five, five Oh five, five, et cetera, on. And the same boom will fit all the models. So you can just buy one boom for your quiver, or you can buy a boon for each one. Now they also come in carbon as well as the aluminum and the aluminum boons are gonna have a little bit of a oval shape to them, which are very comfortable on your hands. And it gives you a sense of where the wing is without looking at it, what position that wing is in. I know that the carbon one is about a half a pound lighter than the aluminum one and just the size of it is going to be considerably lighter than the echo. And the boom just slides into these nylon pouches on the front and back, I guess it looks like it. Yes. Now the, when you S when you look at that front, let me see if I can get a little bit better angle here that front attachment that's going to be changed slightly. There's there's going to be some padding, some webbing straps that actually Velcro to hold that in. Apparently the guys in Europe, when they were doing tricks, where they back winded that was coming loose. So they've modified it. This is it. This is actually not a production wing. It's one of the prototypes with the logos on it. So there's still a few more changes to make, but for the most part, this is what the wings will look like. So I'm wondering you're saying the boom is the same length for all sizes. So on the bigger wings, have you. Like sometimes I like to put my hand way in the back, like when you're doing a duck jive tag type of turn or or going steep up when you, you want to put your hand way back sometimes. Is it, do you ever feel like you want to put your hand further back then the boom goes or does that no, it's not an issue because the wing is so much tighter. That the range of sheeting in and sheeting out is very tight. It's very tight wing. I don't think I haven't had that problem. So how does it feel on the wave when you're luffing it behind you? Attracts really nice, better than the unit was. I haven't written the unit. I'm sorry. I meant echo the echo, the one. Yes. It's better than the echo. Now that the, if you think of the center strut as on, but the center stride is like the keel in the wind, or like the tail on a kite, it's going to keep the wing pointed into the wind because the strut acts like the rudder echo never had that. And that's one reason why it oscillated so much. Oh yeah. That makes sense. You have to remember a little bit back in. It was 18 that can started and the fall of 18 on it started to get out in videos and social media. And all of a sudden everyone was interested, not just Enthusiasts, but manufacturers, can you make a little video of it? Like action or dispensary? So one of the Delta things with, unlike the echo with the center, strut, it floats. Now if you're used to, that's nothing new. If you're using a wing that on has a center structure. But it's really nice compared to the echo when it sits on the water. It doesn't say that the bloom doesn't sink in when the wind catches it. Yeah. That's nice. Now, when do you think this will be actually in ready in the stores? When can we get our first shipment at blue planet? You're asking the wrong guy here. That's the one thing that's been frustrating me with the duo times is they're kinda hard to get and hard to know when we can actually get them, I think it's not just do a Tom. I think some of it can be chalked up to, the worldwide pandemic, they had to shut their factories down just like we did to, shut our restaurants down and on the supply chain was effected. I know that they were having trouble getting cloth. And this is just secondhand information I'm hearing from my neighbor. I think he did tell me that they have produced a number of units already. But then there's shipping, if it's coming by boat and you heard about that content container ship that went down well, not went down, but all the containers fell over. Yeah. Apparently high-tech had a number of F1 wings. In one of those containers. Oh, wow. So a lot of products was lost there. So it's, I don't know if it's just duo tone. Maybe the other manufacturers have different sources, but no, it's the same. I guess ozone has their own factory, so they're Little bit more it's more clear, like how long it's going to take and when they're going to ship it and stuff like that, you can, it's easier to predict, but yeah, I know. I know. Everybody's I know just the materials you have to order six months in advance. So this is a video that I put together with the little GoPro speedometer. And what I can tell you about the performance of these wings is that they are head and shoulders better than anything I've written. They're super tight. They go up wind unbelievable that the outline. You know that they have a square shape, so that wing tip, you can bring it right down low to the water. And it's really efficient. If the wing tip does catch, it clears really easily. Yeah. They're really tight. Now this is a four or five though that I'm using. And this was just a couple of days ago. The wind's been cranking here. And I was really powered up with this four or five or 20 miles per hour. That's pretty fast. So that's a port or starboard. Tack is my weak side. I'm a regular foot. So this is my stronger side. And this is costly Harbor that we're looking at. Turn the sound down. Whoa, there you go. At 26 miles per hour. That's. Yeah, that's impressive. What foil are you using? What, yeah. What do you have any advice on the foils on I'm using a GOFO? Gofoil on, I have all their I have a lot of the different models on I mentioned earlier. I have the 200, that's where I started and it's where I start. When I'm teaching people, I use the 200 on. I also have the GL series as well as the NLS and the one I'm writing in this video is it's actually a custom on towing. I think Al's only made a few. I think he, he gave one to some of the big wave to tow surfers on the North shore of Oahu. Slick. I heard about that. I think Derek Hamas, Saki has one of those, maybe I think I've seen it. So it's not one that's I don't know if he's planning to bring that to market. Let's see 28 miles an hour was your top speed. It looked like that's pretty, pretty amazing. Yeah. Now here's another wing. This is from more recently and it's turn the sound down. This is one of the prototypes. From several months ago I'm lucky enough that can, let's meet, use some of the older the stuff that didn't make the cut and, he'll make a wing and he'll figure out, okay, this works really well. And this doesn't work so well. And there's been a number of people on Maui that have been recipients of the seconds on the really bad ones end up in the trash. The really good ones he keeps. And then some of the others like this one, and this is a three-three and it's blowing. Gosh, it was gusting up to 40 this day. And my first run, the wing was under inflated. My wife was using it. I don't think she pumped it up hard enough. So I came back and pumped it up and then did another run. Now the foil that I'm using is I don't think it's going to be available unless out puts it into production, but he is working on another wing that another foil that is foils are underwater wings are in the air working on another foil. That is considerably faster. He, let me take a run on it and I didn't have the speedometer when I used it. But it felt really fast. I'm hoping he'll get me one of those when they come into production. Yeah. And then, I guess faster foils are usually smaller surface area and thinner profile, that's and then. More high aspect type of shape. Is that what makes them fast? Would you say? Or what's how did it look? Smaller, thinner equals speed, but of course you're going to need more wind and more skill to get up the speed to get going and get up on the foil. Yeah. One thing that I've found now, when I first started teaching, I had them LICO two 80. I don't know if you have one of those. Yeah. That was like super bouncy when they went on the original mass, right? Yeah. I read that in the early days. The two 80 I thought would be really good for teaching people and it does foil it about a walking speed, but there's so much drag that you really have to push the thing hard. And for people who are, excuse me, for people who are just learning, how to use the wing, trying to power that wing, to push the board up on foil it. And actually the 200 people did better on the 200 because they, there was less drag and they could get it up to foil speed easier. And what I've found is that in my own learning, as I've graduated down in smaller and smaller wings, that. The tiny wing does take more speed to get going, but there's less drag to push it through the water. So it seems like you can get up to that takeoff speed. Easier. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Makes sense. Yeah, I've got that same experience. So when you say you still use the Maliko 200 for teaching people how to wing. Yeah. Yes. Now I did do one modification. I cut the mass down from 24 to 15 inches. Oh, wow. 15 inch mass. Okay. Yeah. And that's nothing new, there's been other foil manufacturers that have made different mass lengths for beginners. Is it safer to, right? You don't when you breach it on crashes from as high, sorry. Yes. In fact, when it does breach it's a rude drop, but usually. They'll maintain enough speed to kick it back right up again. And the importance, you know of not too high, not too low. That makes sense. Do you have so many good videos teaching how to, to wing foil and and then yeah, actually also you're you have that Patrion channel and to sign up for this yesterday and it's really cool. I don't know if you mind me sharing some of these posts, but I guess yeah, if you pay like $5 a month or so. You can choose what, how much you want to contribute, but then you get access to all these really detailed tech, technical videos on how to wing foil, which is really cool. Like this one here about attacking. I watched yesterday and it's I'm going to turn off the sound here, but it just has really good instructions. I have to say. It's ex what really well done, Alan, and And yeah. So if you're learning how to wink fun, I guess that's something too, like maybe talk a little bit about how the pandemic has affected your business and, like how you transitioned to doing more of this kind of virtual coaching and things like that. Sure. Thank you. I I've been running the winter school since 85. No. I came to Maui to wind surf, but like I said, I skipped college and I wasn't sure what I was going to do. And I fell into to what I love to do. And that's teach wind surfing, then develop the business and it's grown over the years. We've diversified into surfing and kiting and sup and although wind surfing and sup is our bread and butter. I'm sorry. Windsurfing. Kiting is our bread and butter. When foiling came along on it sorry. It's just, the video is distracting me when when foiling came along wing foiling on, I thought, Oh, this is something I could teach in the school. And you remember Ken, he had this stream of prototypes coming into the neighborhood here and. People were really intrigued by foiling that's my wife, they were really intrigued by foiling and they wanted to do it. And Robert business was really good. I was the only one that had the wings, none of the shops there were, there was nothing available by them yet. Yeah. So I was sharing the wings and giving lessons and turning people on anyone that asked, I'd let them try it. And we were poised on. I was getting boards and sales and training instructors, and we were poised to, teach wing surfing and then COVID hit and changed everything. Shut everything down, turned Maui into a car park, full of tourist cars on all of the restaurants were closed and we just hunkered down. We went to Costco's everybody else and load it up and So during this downtime, besides doing the house maintenance and the things that everyone did, I thought that I would put together some videos or do a video on this is how we teach wind foiling. And that was, I don't know if you have that one. That's a, it's on YouTube. It's my daughter's to star on, but that one put it up and. This one very hard to get up in Seattle. It's older. It's older. Huh. Oh, maybe on all the videos. He, Oh, part one part two. That's it right there. So I just took my daughter down to the beach nearby and took my dog down and took the video camera and just put together. This was the introduction. That's my prom foil board that I use for regular surfing on. And it works on the wing too. That's anyway, on. We just went down and had some fun and my daughter, at this point, she was able to foil and go up wind and we were just going to use the big board. Yeah. So I put her on the big board and we just went through, this is how we teach. And it was the idea was a infomercial on what we're doing at the school. And there was so much positive feedback that I thought I'd do part two. And that's the one where I'm getting up on foil in the Harbor. And people were so appreciative that I was doing that. And a friend said you should have a Patrion account now, which I didn't know what that was. And I went home and looked at it and realized, this is me right now. Because again, COVID had shut down the business. And I thought this is a way that I could take my skills online and teach people and not just one at a time at the beach, like I normally do, but be able to reach everybody. So that's what I've been working on through the COVID thing. It's I'm still in the red, but I'm getting close to, paying off my equipment, but the. Appreciation far outweighs any monetary support, that, people telling me that I've helped them do this and do that. And thank you as well. You do the same thing with so many of your videos. I How many videos have you done that helped people? It's awesome. Yeah. Thanks Alan. For me, it's different though, because for us, depending on it was actually like boom times because everybody. And nobody could travel. People had extra spending money that stimulus checks, and then they just, bye. Yeah. You could go out in the water. That was the safest thing you could do. So it's been actually very good for our business in terms of equipment sales, but yeah, in terms of tourists, there's nothing right now. Still, I think it hasn't really recovered at all. Let me let me do a couple of quick screen shares as well. Okay. Let me turn mine off again here. Hold on. Okay. So yeah, I'll let you do the screen share. Okay. This is my daughter and this was her first session with the wing on a winter Ford with the daggerboard on the wing she's using, this was the first. I guess you'd call it a echo prototype. This wing was really solid. This thing really changed everything. It has five buttons or something. Yeah. It had battens prior to the battens. Ken was using these wings just to go down wind and you didn't meet any battens because he was holding it like a Spinnaker sale. It wasn't until we started sailing at canal hall, going up wind that they were flapping. And that's really where a lot of the changes began. I met my wife, wind surfing. This is an old picture. I met her in 87 and we have two daughters together. My oldest one on my left. She's living in California, married my younger one. Is living at home here with her boyfriend and she's having a really good time. She works up at the crater. I don't want to say it's a as a park ranger, but she's working up at the summit with people up there and she also winged foils. But she prefers to rock climb, free climb on. Let's see, where do you go on Maui for free climbing? Is that there's a number of places. There's one over in key hay and over on the backside. And I don't have any pictures of that cued up. This is my wife when she realized that my old board, her board. Fits in the back of her car. Big smile. Yeah. He loves wing foiling because it's just so easy. You pump up the wing and you're ready to go. Yeah. Assuming you have a car that fits your foil and she's also COVID has. Changed our relationship for the better previously she would man, my office at high-tech here, our office. I don't know if you can see this. So I have this little kiosk in high-tech and pre COVID. She would spend her days in there meeting and greeting people and everything to do with the school. We have a. A school van that goes down to the beach for the wind surf year on. And when COVID hit, that was all shut down, but we could go to the beach and wing. She's been putting her time in, out on the water. There's my old sup board, which is perfect for her. It's about 85 liters. She's got the a that's one of the prototype wings. That's the one that I was doing the speed run on earlier. A lot. And she's, she's making about almost nine out of 10 of her jobs now, which is something that she didn't quite do in winter. If you, even though she's been a lifelong windsurfer, In a lot of ways, like I always struggled doing tax on a small wave board windsurfing, but on a wing. It's actually, I find it way easier to do attack because you don't have to jump in front of the wing and stuff like that. So in a lot of ways, when winging is actually easier than windsurfing, I find one of the things that makes it so addicting besides the feeling of floating on air of snowboarding and powder, if you've ever skied or snowboarded, the feeling of powder is exceptional. On there's no pounding. But the, besides all those great things, and it's quick to set up and an easy is that each time you go out, maybe even each run, do you learn something new? And it doesn't matter if you're a beginner, just holding the wing for the first time or floating around on a big board. Forget the foil, just sail the board around. I've had people. Do the lessons on the big board and say, this is so fun, and it is, but you haven't even got on the foil board yet and you're loving it. It gets better. It's truly addicting. Th this being up on the floor that sensation of flying over the water, it feels more like you're flying than going over water. So it's this, that is so cool. And you know that, I don't know if you've been watching any of the America's cup racing last year with the catamaran and this year with the monohulls. It's absolutely incredible how fast they go. Yeah. And us mere mortals will probably never, ever get the chance to ride on one, forget owning one on, but you can have your own personal hydrophobic yacht right there. For relatively inexpensive and in a way it's, I don't know, to me it's almost more interesting because you're basically controlling it with your body weight, not, it's not like a mechanical control. It's like you're controlling the foil, it's your body weight. I would say it's one of the more freer feelings that you can have and the. Again, it was in may of 18 that Ken first got that blow up wing. Now he's not the first handheld wings have been around for a long time. And there's another guy flash Austin. He deserves the credit for being the first one on Maui to put a wing together on a foil board. And he went out and foiled out and back and got some video. And then I think his wing broke apart and he never put it back together. It didn't stick with it, but prior to him, I saw the footage of him doing that. And I thought, no, that looks crazy. Yeah. Nobody really thought that it could be what it is today. And I believe it's Tony Lugosi that sometime around 15 or 16 made an inflatable wing, not necessarily with the intention of foiling, but I think he just, put together an inflatable weighing instead of ones with struts and spars and on. And he. Apparently put that on the foil board and made it work on a foil board more as a novelty on, I don't think he thought that it would take off, but he was ahead of his time there and nobody has a patent on it or anything like that. So it's just nice that's open for wide open for development and stuff like that, where people don't have to worry about licensing it and so on, right? Yes. So it's on. Really since I think Ken is probably responsible for this resurgence or, this round of it anyway, but he, it was only may of 18 that it started. Yeah. Yeah. And I always wondered why you, how you got the all the new wings and the new prototypes so early, but now I know it's cause you're Ken when there's your neighbor. So no wonder, but obviously also, you're a really good spokesperson for duotone. I think that's that? Your videos are one of the reasons why I got into Wingfoot foiling too, I'm not an official spokesperson for duo tome. I'd rather think of myself as an ambassador for the sport right on. I'd like to see everyone, try it and Excel. It's just that my position is that I've been using these duotone wings. Okay. Let's go talk a little bit more about equipment. You said, and I don't know if you have some video of yourself using your board and stuff like that, but you said you only use a front foot strap. You don't really jump because because you're worried about injury and you often use a harness and things like that. So can you talk a little bit about, for myself, I've never even tried a harness. I felt it's not really necessary. I feel like it doesn't, there's not as much pressure in the wing as when you're windsurfing. So what made you start using a harness and and yeah, maybe talk a little bit about the gear you use and why you set it up the way you did. Now? I did do a video on YouTube. Maybe I can screen share on how to use the harness, all about the harness. Okay. And this, I did this last year. Maybe even longer initially it was the boom is right there and you're sailing along and you think I could probably use a harness here, so yeah. So let's talk a little bit about using a harness and why yeah. Why you started using it and so on. First I thought, let's just try it and see if it works. And I went and made a custom harness line and I pulled my old windsurf harness out there. It is, and put it on and went out and gave it a few runs and decided, yeah, it was possible, but I didn't really need it. Didn't you know, it wasn't really happening. And. What I realized now is that the harness I made a custom harness line, a real long one, thinking that I needed a long one because the wing is way up here. But when it's over your head, there's no load on the wing, it's when you're going up wind that the Boone comes down the wing tips, low to the water. And when you're going up, when there's a lot of lateral pole and it's at that point that you need or you. Would find a harness line comfortable. So I gave it another try. I pulled out the regular harness line that decline just regular windsurfing harness line and got my old kite harness out. That's the one we're looking at now. And maybe later people watching can watch this video to know what we're talking about here. But the main thing is that you have a hook that allows you to quickly get out of the. The harness line. Yeah. You don't want it as small as a kite surfing hook yet, or the yes, but more open, not yet. And then, when you have the hook getting on your board, you can damage your board with the hook. So I go through a couple different methods to get on the board. And there's another video that I have on YouTube as well, where I'm riding my prone board. And I talk about how to get up when you're using a harness hook. Talk about the length of the harness line and the placement. So would you say when you hold the boom it's about where your elbow is? Is that about the length or the middle? Yeah. The, we used to grab the boom and then pull the loop down to your elbow. And that was, or to the crotch in your arm here. And that was a good general ballpark. Some people like them shorter. Some people like them longer. There's only a handful of people using harness lines over here at Ken winners, one of them on, and. There's a few other people that have tried them on and I'm getting people online talking about them. And there's certainly a lot of chatter online. Yeah. A lot of people talking about it online here on a wahoo. I haven't seen anybody using a harness, but but yeah, I find it interesting. Not intriguing on it's not necessary. You don't have to have it. There are some drawbacks, it often it'll hit you in the face when you're trying to pump up on the board. But if it's swings a lot on you're wearing the harness hook, you can't lie on the board unless you unclip it. Because you'll damage your board. You just can't lay flat on the board if you have to paddle or something, but it's easy enough to unclip it and let it hang to the side on. And like I said, it's a little harder to get on the board sometimes, but there's ways around that. When you're in the harness going up wind with the bigger wing on, as soon as you get comfortable with it, you'll love it. Yeah. I can see that cause you're basically just using your body weight to, to power up the not you don't use your arms any more, really just for control. Same as when you went, surfing it in higher wind with a smaller wing. It is a little scarier to hook in, we haven't had that many light wind days over here on, or I haven't had that many sessions out on my six meter. I do have a six meter wing and going out in 10 to 12 knots with the harness and going up wind is a dream it's so comfortable and steady. Your weight does the work. Your arms are just relaxed. It's a really wonderful feeling. On, you're not gonna use the harness going downwind, just the way that, excuse me, the way the wing folds out. You're just not going to hook in. It's really just for going up, wind on. And I there's a shot of my foot straps on, I only have the front foot straps. I switch like a windsurfer I'll switch tacks after each run. Sometimes I might do a short run where I ride switched or tow side. I don't have a back strap because I moved my back foot around a lot and I did have it for a while and I fell and tweaked my ankle. And I decided that I don't really need the back strap because I'm not jumping. And. It just was getting in the way and I don't want to injure myself on, and I made a pledge early on to myself that I wouldn't take this sport to the air because where does it stop? And I'm really glad I did because seeing balls Mueller doing those loops. He's inspiring, and in the beginning he was throwing himself up in the air and let's try this or let's try that. And just coming down in the heap. In fact I made a comment on one of his Instagram pages that you have nine lives and that one just costs you one. The one where he goes in the shore break, it just gets eaten up in the shore break. Yeah, with the foil County going over him and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I. I injured myself a number of years ago. It was pretty serious back injury and I've healed up a hundred percent, but you told me about this injury yesterday. Can you tell us a little bit more how exactly how that happened? So I was surfing at hokey-pokey on a relatively big day and I did a late takeoff and I free fell head first and I put my arms up. To protect from the board. And I landed on the water like this, instead of, like this let me stop the screen sharing so you can show us what you're. Yeah. Okay. So how did what happened? I was surfing Keepa and I just did a late tape off and went overhead first. And I put my arms up in the air to keep from getting hit by the board. And I impacted the water like this instead of, like this. And it was a compression fracture on my spine. What paratroopers get landing hard in their bone. And it was, I've healed fine. But it was pretty close to what they call a burst fracture, where pieces of the bone enter the spinal cord and paralysis occurs. So I had a near life-changing experience there. And I think that was when I was 55, 54. So since then I've kinda I've just decided not to take it to the air. I've stopped kite surfing. I don't kite surf anymore because I don't trust myself on to not jump. And on wing foiling is something that's less. I it's a lot safer than so many other things out there. And I see Some older folks down at the beach and the oldest relative, I'm 59. I know when I paddle out at who Keepa, I'm like the oldest one out there. Now that was kin winter catching a wing tip while he was in the harness. That's one thing that if you're going to try a harness, you want to be aware of, if that wing tip catches again, it doesn't end up well, And I talk about this in the video with sound yeah. Catching right here. And then you're in the heart instead of falling on the wing, you can't get out, you can't unhook. So if you're going to try the harness, that's something to consider. This is not something that, that you're going to go and use the first week of wing foiling. You want to have some skill. All right. So yeah. The other thing I wanted you to talk about was this cool move that I really was intrigued by. And I still haven't been able to pull it off, but that's the starfish. So how do you get into it in the first place? So you I kinda, I sorta did this by accident. Just hold it right there for a second. If you will. Yeah. Yeah. I was giving a lesson to a novice sailor and he was out, I believe he was on the, he was on the big board. I don't know if it was the wind surfer or the big foil board. And he went out and he did the turn and he had flipped the wing over any came out of it the other way. And I'm like, wow, how did he do that? He did it by accident. But the way he jived the wing and spun the board right around. I said, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to go try that. So I went out and I was trying to do what I saw him do. And I'm not sure what I did, but I was flipping the wing over just like this. Okay. And the wind got behind me and something like that. And I said, okay, I'm going to. Try and do that and get the wing behind me. So I went out a few more times and I was able to flip the wing over. And as you turned down wind, you might back up there a little bit, as you turned down, wind, you're moving with the wind. So the amount of pressure on the wing is minimal. So if you want to do this, it's relatively easy. You start your job. You turn the wings so that the wing tip drags in the water or starts to invert. So you flip the wing over. Okay. And then here, turn the corner so that you're going with the wind. And at this point, as long as it's not blowing a Gale, so the wing is almost weightless because you're moving with the wind. At this point, you're coasting on the foil. You get your hand on the handle and you can bring it up behind you. Now at this point if there's enough wind. The wind will keep the wing against you, just friction. So I did this, I was goofing off with it and I was going down the coast thinking, okay, this is pretty cool. How am I going to get out of it? I don't know. I'll figure that out when I get there. And so I got down there and I reached up and grabbed the handle and flipped it over and sailed away. And I thought that was cool. And I had put in a full day and I packed up and I was driving home and Alex Garrett calls me and says, dude, I went to get my camera. I got to get your new move. This is Alex. Yeah. Filming this. So I'm like, nah, I'm like, no, I'm good Al. And he's Oh man, you gotta do it, man. Someone else is gonna do it and claim your move. And I'm like, eh, And I'm halfway home and I'm looking, the wind's blowing. It's a beautiful sunny day. And I thought, we should do this. Why the sun's out. So I turned around, I went back, called them up and said, I'm coming back. And I went out and did this. So it's a fun move. It's relatively easy to do and easy to get out of on. The trick is you turn down when, and you've slipped the wing upside down and then get the handle and pull it around behind you. And then to get out of it, you just reach it up and bend over it. It's flip or jive over your head. So cool. I've yet to do it, on a coast run. I think we're going to go today. It's blowing pretty good over here. I think we're going to do an illegal run windy day, for sure. Yeah. Oh, okay. So you ended up going back to the beach, setting up again and then pulling it off like that. That's a good sign. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. I think we already went over the time we allotted. So appreciate you talking about all this details and What do you do? Like to stay healthy? What are your secrets to staying fit and young at your, Oh, just trying to stay active, just trying to do something every day. I I haven't been doing much cross training lately on, since I started doing the videos, I've had a lot of time sitting in front of the computer. What I have been trying to get out probably like four times a week to wing foil on. So that's been my main exercise wing forelimb. How long do you go out in the, on the water? Like I find sometimes when I go out for too long, I just start hurting myself. Do you have a certain amount of time? That's good for you or you just stay out as long as you can. Usually I'd say around two hours is my average session. Remember I have a harness. And when I did that speed run with the little yellow wing, just a couple of days ago, my wife was using it and she doesn't use the harness line. So I'm like, okay, I just it's really windy. I want to go get the GoPro speedometer going. And I. I went out and I did my first speed run and I turned around and I'm going back up when, and I'm like, Oh no harness line Ang. And just those two runs without the harness line, my shoulder was starting to hurt, and I don't know how many miles I've paddled surfing and how many times I've wind surfed. It's my shoulders. I'm not going to get a knee replacement. It's going to be a shoulder replacement. Yeah, that's pretty common. If I have to, I hope I never have to do that, but my shoulders have more miles than my knees or hips on. But. I rely on the harness more than I realized, trying to go up in there. It's just that time of hooking in and resting your arms, resting your shoulders. Just that one leg up wind, then you're fresh to go downwind. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. For me too. Yeah. Sometimes I just put my arms straighten out my arms and hold the wing over my head and just relax a little bit. And even without a harness, you can, but the, I can see how, if you have bad shoulders, it's not an easy thing to do after a while. All right. So anything, do you have any sponsors that you want to plug or anything that you want to mention like that? I I'd like to thank Alex Guera for taking care of me with the foils. He makes a great product. Ken and duotone have been very generous with their products on, and I have to admit that I haven't used a lot of other stuff, but there's, a lot of everyone has a lot of good stuff out there and it really doesn't matter what you use. The main thing is that you're using it, that you get out there. And this sport you learn every time you go. And it's a good physical workout. And you think about it too. So it gets you thinking on you won't regret it on. I. If there's one thing one negative thing. And that is that it's very addicting and it's gonna it's gonna take some of your time from something else, which for better or worse and yeah. And your wallet will feel a little bit lighter too. There's that aspect. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you want to leave people with? And any last words? Just to get out on the water and give it a try, you won't regret it. And if yeah it's good to try new things. And living here in Hawaii, living here in Hawaii, most of our days are like other people's vacations. Take advantage of where you live and what you do. You certainly living your dream and that, and I hope That things get back to where you can actually make money with your business. Again, sorry to hear that you're struggling right now, but hopefully people can support your patron account and your great instructional videos online. Keep posting that kind of stuff. That's really cool. Very helpful. I think for people learning, I think we're starting to come out of it here. Then you can see light at the end of the tunnel. I think we're going to, we're going to be all right. Yeah. All right. For this for the boots on it, show who do you think I should interview next? Do you have any any ideas on who I should talk to? Let's see. I can think of a few different people while Ken would be interesting on, but you said he's you might not want to talk to me. Can you ask him. Yeah, I can ask him. In fact, I can I'll try and send you his email Mark rappel, Horst. He's a very interesting guy. He did SIC. He did the paddling he's into whinging for sure. Alex  he's got a lot of history on yeah. Robbie Nash is of course an icon on some up and coming people over here on Maui. I think probably one of the best foils here on Maui. And he's an exceptional winger too, is came to wild. He's amazing. He has some really strong sweet moves. It was down at the Harbor not too long ago. And he goes, Hey, Alan, I figured something out. And I'm like, what is it? Can he says, when you bring the wing down to the rail, you can go so much faster up wind. And I said, Oh no, you figured that out. Okay. It's like closing the gap on a wind surfboard right now. Yes. And I talk about it in the video for how to go up wind. Yeah, but he is so fast and so maneuverable, he's just a real pleasure to watch. And he always uses this pretty small wing too, right? He's just like smaller wings and just once he gets going, then he doesn't need as big of a wing. You're talking smaller foil or smaller wing, a wind wing. He does use a smaller wing. And some of his foils are pretty small, but I've seen him like glide exceptionally far. He's making his own foils and really working at it. Yeah. I've listened to some of his interviews on the progression project and he's like very thoughtful. He thinks about everything and has a lot of interesting theories and tests out stuff and he makes his own tail wings and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, he'd be definitely, he's definitely someone I want to talk to soon. Yeah. And he's just a kid too, so he's got lot of future there. Yeah. Other up and coming, let's see. There's a whole bunch of kids that are getting into it over here. Yeah. I think one of the cool things about wing foiling too, is that it's such a diverse group of people. Like you have a lot of young kids getting into it, people with a surfing background, wind surfing, kite surfing background, a lot of different backgrounds. Plus I think just people are so intrigued by it. Even if they have no water sport experience, they're interested in it. So yes, it appeals to everybody. There's a lot of old time wind surfers that I haven't seen for years. That are down there, like the old days wind surfing, but they're down there trying to figure it out on. There's another guy on nice gentlemen. Ileka 250 pounds. Oh, I'm not suggesting him for an interview, but he is on he's down there all the time. But the point is he weighs 250 pounds. And he's almost as graceful as cane. He's really smooth. He can do a lot of tricks on, there's no such thing as a 250 pound windsurfer freestyle stylist. You just, you can't be 200, 250 pound sup paddler. The big guys, they're just, I'm sorry, but there's a disadvantage when you weigh 250 pounds, but it doesn't seem to affect him. Now. He uses a little bit bigger wing than everyone else and his foil, it's an access foil. That's got a really high aspect. It's got a huge wingspan on it on, but the, the, and that I've been teaching kids to Winser for decades and it's pretty easy to put them on the raft. With the little wing and they drift out and they turn around and they drift in and with a lot of effort, you can get them planning on a little board and a smaller sale, but generally they just don't have the weight to make it work. But with foiling, I'm seeing these little kids on little wings going out and foiling and. And doing it quickly, there they're up and foiling in a matter of days. And they're out there riding around where trying to get them to do that on a wind surfboard would take a year or two. I have always felt like on for me personally. I brought a lot of background, wind surfing and kiting and everything to this sport. And I was one of the guys that just stepped on and went, made it go. And I really got a head start on everyone else. But when I see these kids that are coming on there, where are they going to take this sport? Not just, in their maneuverability, but when they start doing these tricks in the surf. Really just starting to stress the surface of what's possible. I think I, there's going to be so much progression in the sport, it's just amazing. But actually I wanted to ask you if you have someone that has no experience in water sports, no foiling background, and they want to learn how to wing for like how, what is your progression and teaching them like, like how do you start them out? I start them off on the big winter Ford with a dagger board. And we didn't talk about this in the video. Maybe. I don't know if you can add that in later, but a lot of people show up with a sup board and the support has the volume to get them out there to float around. But without the daggerboard, they end up downwind very quickly. The daggerboard does two things. One is it prevents lateral slip and it's at a pivot point. To steer the board right on. I know that they, some of the shops, I don't know if high-tech does, but I think some of the shops have like glue on or strap on daggerboards that you can put on your set boards. That, excuse me, that might be something that you could offer even as a rental, take your board that I sold you last year, put this on it, take the wing. Go down to someplace. I don't know if  has landfall on the downwind side, but someplace like Kyla Bay might where go out and learn how to sail it out, turn around and sail back with the goal of coming back to the same spot. And when my students are able to push that wind surfboard almost onto a plane. That tells me that they're loading the wing, that they've got enough sense to sheet in and sheet out. And when they can come back to the same spot, they know how to turn around and they know on how to steer the wing to get the board to go up wind. Once they can do that. Then the next step is to go on the foil board. And, I wanted to ask you about, and you never take them behind the boat or anything like you don't do the full practicing behind the boat. You don't really need that. I guess once he know how to handle the wing, that's your power source right now in a perfect world behind a boat would be great. Maybe an eco oil might be the next best thing. Have you done much equaling? Yeah, I have done it a bunch. Do you offer it lessons at all? Do you have them in the shop? No longer offered lessons or rentals, just because of the cost of liability insurance, but we refer that. We refer people. There's a company called  experience here on Oahu that we refer people to not see it. . I ideally, in a perfect world behind a boat or jet ski, or even on an equal  would be great. But the reality of I'm sure it's just as hard on Oahu as it is. Maybe it's worse here on Maui on to get permits, to do. Stuff behind a boat. You have to go through the state and get the permit to the state and Oh, just to, yeah. Not many places you can do it actually. That's true. And then even here on the North shore on the rules and regulations for jet-skis during the winter, during the whale season, you need to have permits and license, and it's a thrill craft. If you're going to go in the surf, you need the toe thing and it's just. Yeah, it's the reality, but I've had a lot of people who come with no foil experience, get the get the feeling for the wing on the big board and then apply it to the foil board. The big flow with the short mask, with the big floaty board on a lot of people have learned that way on. And then they're off to get their own equipment and practice on their own on. Awesome. Yeah, I and I think whinging is probably the easiest way to learn how to foil, other than behind a Boulder on the NFL, probably. It's definitely much easier, I think, to learn how to wing foil or it's a four line with a wing then in the waves, cause then there's a whole. Additional complication of calving to catch a wave and get up on your feet and all that kind of stuff. If you're surfing and even stand up, paddle surfing is not that easy to catch the wave and feeling. I had that discussion with a guy this morning. Who's actually our email is actually a winger that can foil and it's too windy over here. The last couple of days, it's just been smoke on the water. So he says he wants to try prone. On his set board and I'm like he's got an 80 liter board and I'm like, no, that's too big. You need to get a prone board if you want us if you want a prone and yes, it's easier. It's going to be easier to prone in the surf than it is to suck in the surf. He has no sup experience and trying to sup for the first time you need to have a real easy Waikiki style way, but of all the sports, whether it's kite surfing, Or wind surfing prone, surfing sub foiling. If you've never done any of that, that it's going to be easiest to learn. I believe with a wing. I agree, ideally behind a boat or a  might be the next best thing next easiest way. But again, the logistics of. Getting a boat you need to drive or you need a place. I have a boat and I took my wife out. We did a snorkel trip to Molokini and I brought the foil along and my daughter and her friends, and we all took turns on the foil. And my wife got up and scissored Oh, Damaged your ribs. And she was out for six months. And then, so she's better. So we'd go back to the beach and we're going to Duane foil. And she goes out on the wing full board and neither one of us thought of a vest. And she fell and did the same thing another six months. So she's got a late start. Oh, she is determined though to happen and she's still going. That's awesome. Yeah. Wow. I've watched a lot of your videos and you do a really great job of, filming and editing and it's really easygoing and the information is really clear and concise and Yeah, that's a lot it is a lot of work too, to put out good content, but I try, just try to be consistent, tried to do one a week. That's my goal, and then, we definitely see a, I see a lot of rewards from that too. People appreciate it and people support our business because people know about our business because of the videos. So it's yeah, it's a win-win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That again, that was the whole reason why I started the YouTube stuff. And then. Then the Patrion stuff just fell into place. And then I think once, once people started coming back to Maui, it'll definitely, you'll see a lot of returns from that. People are going to seek you out because of your videos. People will be like, Oh yeah, this guy knows what he's doing. So I'm sure your business is going to do well. Going forward. It's going to just get better and better planning on coming to a walkthrough to visit my dad. Oh, probably in the, he gets his second COVID shot on the 3rd of March and I thought I'd give him a week to, get solid. And then then I can come over without worrying about bringing anything. Okay. Yeah. Let's let's meet up when you here. And maybe we can do a video together to do a collaboration. Yeah, maybe I just would like to wing it. Okay. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Flat Island is super fun actually, when the winds are right direction and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And might be too early for a South swell, but Is it Kahala? Where is it? That's where we ended up going a lot, just cause it's easy. And there's like showers and stuff like that. But diamond head is also really fun. We like going out at diamond head it's kinda like the old days of windsurfing. When there's a South swabbed diamond that gets good. And there's a few other spots like Hickam air force base. I have a, my wife is in the military so I can go there. And that's I just went there for the first time, a couple of days ago. And it was amazing. It's like a super smooth wave there. That's protected from the wind, so right by the airport runway. It's awesome. Yeah, there's a few good spots. And then on the North shore guy to go out at reviews and stuff like that, and there's some good winging on the North shore for sure. Got a lot of good spots on the wall. I got a lot of that over here. I'd rather just, I'd rather just cruise around and Kyla the mellow stuff. Yeah. And that's what Kahala is pretty nice. Kayla is good, like a lot of times for beginners, I don't really recommend it that much, especially if you're regular foot, because first of all, you're going out on your diff opposite side. So it's hard to get going. If you're not used to Being switched, having your stent switched, and then you ended up going downwind and then you have to walk back up the beach and it's, it's can be quite exhausting and it's hard to get off the beach in the first place. If you don't know how to go Upland, so it's not an not actually I find it not a great

Transcript: Aloha! It's Robert Stehlik Stehlik with Blue Planet. I hope you like that new introduction video at the beginning. This is the second episode of the blue planet show. I'm just recording it here in my home office, in the garage. So I'm trying to slowly improve the quality of the show. It just got a new microphone and a better webcam, and then also working on improving the wifi connection. So the quality of the video will hopefully be better in the future. Yeah, cause I'm just using zoom calls, recorded zoom calls to do interviews with the wind foiling athletes and thought leaders all about the sport. And it's just blowing up right now, wind flooding or wind, ding, whatever you want to call it. And hopefully this show will just throw more fuel on the fire and just get everyone stoked on the sport. I'm super excited about it myself. And it's really cool to learn things from. Athletes like Baltz Mueller who is super inspirational, just doing all these crazy moves and hearing him talk about visualizing and dreaming about a new moves and then pulling them off. So he's really on the cutting edge and it's so cool to, to get him to on the show here. And at the end of the show, I asked him who to interview next and he suggested I should talk to a female and then particular Annie Reichert from Maui. So I'm trying to get her on the show. Next. I messaged her. The best way to watch this show is on YouTube. So you can follow the videos and the visuals along with what we're talking about, but these are really in-depth long videos. So if you want to listen to it while you're driving or doing other things, it is not also available as a podcast on both Android and Apple devices. So if you go to Google podcasts or Apple podcasts, you can just search for the blue climate show. It should come right up. And you can listen to it while you're driving or doing other things. And the first episode with Zane Schweitzer is available on the podcast and this new interview is going to be available within a couple of days as well. Thank you so much for listening to the blue planet show. Of course, make sure you subscribe to the blue plan and surf channel down below. Give it a thumbs up if you enjoyed it. And without further ado here is Baltz Muller. All right. Balz Muller. Thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing today? Awesome. Yeah. So for you, it's at eight o'clock in the morning, right? And all my coffee for me in Hawaii. It's 9:00 PM.  We have an 11 hour time difference, but I'm going to bed soon. You just getting up. So what have you been up to? We just had an awesome weekend and now I'm looking out the window and it's not snowy, so it's a good day. And it's gonna be windy as well. It's actually, it's it was windy the past weeks and Combined with some very nice snow. It was a, it's a dream to live in Switzerland at the moment. And I can, I realize that the industry realized now these days that we need good wetsuits and it's insane to see how this sport, how this water sport is growing insane. And there've been so many people on the water the past weekend. Yeah. Some people ever even scared and they were telling me all how this will end up in the summertime. When now in the middle of the winter time, they're already like 40 to 50 people on the water, and yeah, so basically a lots of action on the water these past days. And and as you can see also some action in the smoke.  Come complacent only missing the waves. Oh, only really missing the waves Bob out. That's what I'm always telling the waves. We come precise with the wing and the foils because we really start surfing the flat water with the wind and those foils. They they, with those FA those forests, we pretend we actually surfing waves. What was it? That's my tree to follow the smell. One of these next one of these next days, we got to figure out how this is gonna this gonna work. As you can see, it didn't really work so far, but all the friends are telling me it's supposed to work. Cause the tensity of the snow is probably like 10 times. They kid and water, but if we would have a steep Hill and lots of speed, it would work. Everyone is laughing, everyone was laughing and they were all like you're choking and it's completely full, but I think it's possible. And the reason why I tried it now, it was the past two seasons. I was always talking to the one that we got a snow for it. Like everyone was like, you. So frustrated. Tell us a little bit about your background.  You're I think you're a 26 year old, or how old are you? Actually, I'm 20. I'm not sure if I'm 26 or I stopped counting, but I feel I'm still young. I still feel young even though in the morning, a bit stiffer after a long day of sailing yesterday when you yesterday. No, but I'm I'm born and raised in Switzerland. It's not that common for a watersports and also did lots of snowboarding as a kid. I still love snowboarding and I grew up in a family with two brothers and were all fully into water sports. So with the parents, we always traveled to the sea. And I think that's the reason why we got into a whinging windsurfing, all those sorts of sports. And my background is windsurfing. I'm still a professional windsurfer, even though I feel like I should train more for windsurfing and Too much into winging lightly. My job is still professional freestyle windsurfer. It turns into professional winging, I think as the industry is turning into winning as well, so yeah, that's basically my short story. Tell us a little bit about how you got into wink foiling. Like how did you first get started with it? Now I think one and a half something some summer to one and a half year ago, I was quite late. I saw the first guys already trying the first champs and I was like, Whoa, we got to do this. And I've, I'm into foiling since the very beginning and windsurfing almost. So Dean it's been almost six or five years foiling with the winter skiing and this, this feeling of foiling it changed my life. I always, when I'm back on the normal fin board, I feel like it's ridiculous. Ridiculous straight. It's not that loose and free and the foils they changed my life. It feels like riding on a cloud. That's what the very first beginning the guys were telling her, it's like cloud surfing, you're flying and this loose three dimensional feeling. It's just insane.  The change from the wind foil with the sail to the wing was not that. Crazy. But in reality, the fact that you're not connected to your board anymore with windsurfing, it, it blows my mind from the very beginning. So like the first day on the first day on the wing, I already tried, I don't know, three sixties and everything like spinning around. I had most trapped on the board on the very first day. And the board was like hundred 40 liters. So a very good beginning. The second day I took the board with the straps and I tried straight to three 60 in the air.  Took off instantly. And and from that day on, I couldn't sleep anymore without dreaming about women winning and winning tricks and flips and any sort of rotation. So it took off like this. It's pretty amazing that the stuff you've been doing. So w who is your partner here that you're winning with? Yeah, I'm actually living together with my girlfriend ever.  Together we're mostly always motivated  some, one of us is always motivated to get on the water. Like yesterday, everybody was even more motivated than me. Cause the wind, it seemed to be nothing. And then we run down to the beach in the wetsuits and it was, it's five degree. The water is even colder. So we ended up at the beach. There was almost no wind, no Whitecaps that we were like for pushing each other. So there's a great community with my girlfriend, of course, with a raw ham. I think Rowan Michael is a very close friend and we're daily pushing what's possible on the phone, but it all started together with my brothers. They they also jumped on to the first, we were freestyle windsurfing together. Then we jumped onto the wind foiling, a freestyle stance, and we started to push each other, like the level. One guy was trying a trick on his foil. The other guy tried a trick on his foil. That's how it started. We were like pushing each other to get insane. And the funny thing is now my brothers, they're not into wing falling yet. And that's the craziest thing. Cause they're still like, There still Oh, I want to keep stick. I want to stick to windsurfing. Cause otherwise I will stop it there. I think there know what's happening, what happened with me? So they're a bit scared that they now they got one project Catholic kind of child. So he's, his time is limited on the water. So he's more focused on freestyle windsurfing at the moment. I'm pretty sure next summer, like they won't resist, they can't resist anymore. When you see how many people are now winging yesterday, it was a random winter day, freaking cold. And I saw so many wingers on the water. It's it's so cool. Actually almost a bit scary. Yeah.  Here in a way I've noticed that it's almost more people whinging than wind surfing now here on the wall. Who anyways. Yeah. And it's also diverse is safe. It's surfers it's stand up for others and paddlers windsurfers kiters. Anybody wants to try it? So it's as a very broad appeal, it seems and this well, quite a big community of newcomers with no, or actually almost no work. The sport background. Which for me is I still remember two years ago, everyone was super like against me. They were like, Oh, one another water sport. It's gonna kill. It's gonna kill our community. We anyway, that's small. And there are not enough people in both. This will ruin it, and then over the last summer, I could realize that there were so many new faces at the beach, and now the windsurfers, which are fully against it, they're still like, Oh, now there are so many people on the water, but slowly and surely they all start whinging. And then he, from the first session, you have a big smile. The first moment you're flying it. It's changing your life. It's like the best powder free ride snowboard day, or like the greatest surf day. That's what I feel. So this is some footage here from, is this some Brazil when you were at that world cup? Can you tell us about your trip and what you did over there?  Brazil, it was very unsure if it's going to happen or not, but we were invited for the first wing for a world championship. It was the second one. That was the first one in silver planner. But it was not yet like officially. So we, we got invited to for the less than Brazil and it's a city spot in the middle of this huge city and the condition usually are not that great, but they're awesome for winging. It's funny. It's funny to see how you. How you can actually travel around the whole globe, get to a spot where the conditions are not awesome. And then having such a blast winging with the world best best riders. And that's what actually happened. Yeah. As you can see now, there's for the lecture for the recipe. Yeah, really. We were living the dream in the middle of this pandemic. Beside, beside we took a COVID test almost every day and had to get to strict strict borders to enter the water. It was so much fun in the water. How was it traveling like w was it difficult to get there and. And it was good to show at first sight of what could be possible in this new sport, especially with Misa the Brazilian who's surfing. So nice. And also the one who, who makes us dream and really like small or flat waste, they're writing it and they're making it look so good. It's it took off there. But where it really took off was the week after the competition. When we all went to Jericho Quora, and we were like, everyone was a bit stressed out because for the competition, it was weird. We didn't know what to expect. We didn't know what the church gonna reward or not. So they were they were definitely what they wanted to see were tricks in the waves. They wanted to see us riding the waves and doing tricks in the waves. But the waves were so hard that we almost couldn't get into into the waves because it was basically only a short break. So we were riding the shore break and that was very scary. I saw some wipe out zones going to play that. Let me see if I could find it back in Brazil, but there's so much lately there's so much content. There's so much writing. Pretty much in the short run. There's the wash. Yeah. Together with Rohan.  It was the first official competition and we pushed hard. I would say the more than five guys can completely pounded in the short break cause we just wanted to right away and there was no wave.  We ended up being most of the beach. And as I said before, in the end, they was good. We all came together and then we tripped for to cherry Coke war up in the North. And that was such, it was such a nice trip because there was the, of course there was the F1 photo shooting, so left in all invited and we were scoring some awesome waves together. And pushing the limits forward falling weavers. Yeah. So it looks like a lot of your inspiration for the moves that you trying to is from freestyle windsurfing, right? Like you trying the same moves and then, but it's actually, it's, it looks like it's almost easier to do without the wind being attached to your board, right? It is definitely on there much more possibilities. And the craziest thing is that it's actually easier to get into it in windsurfing till you get to a certain level, your champ, your port, I don't know. It takes you maybe two or three years. And in winging, I would say after two months, you're able to do your first tricks and yeah, you should look at the numbers of writers doing tricks on the water. There's very limited freestylers out there. Maybe, the world tour is like the Brighton 40 people in the world, freestyling and it got so complicated with all those weird double tricks in there that no one could follow anymore. And I was already now after just one, one season of freestyling, I will tell that they're more wing freestylers that Windsor freestylers. Cause it, it simply, the. So do you is growing now, not anymore into winter freestyling, they're starting straight with Winfrey styling as it's something you, and it's combining the kite free stylists and the winter freestylers. So they're already double as much writers involved. And the cool thing is how it's combining the styles of the surfers, the freestylers, the kite freestylers. As as Maxim Tablo, for example he's one of the world's best freestyle kiters and these he's putting his moves on to the way now his cart moves and it's combining all the disciplines like kiting surfing, windsurfing. I it's good to see. And as you said, it's with the right gear. It's. It's accessible for everyone and the right star. Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit. Getting started. Can you give what kind of pointers do you give to people that are getting into the sport? What would you recommend in terms of equipment and technique and all that kind of stuff? I think the most important is that you better not looking for a board to buy for your first session. Maybe the best is even to make three or four lessons on basic beginner gear. As you can see, the sport there I was using is a 60 liter board. I would say it's the advanced board for a really good writer, but for getting into it, you need a big board. Do you need something with 140, 160 liters? So you're floating on your first day. And then on the second day, you can almost go down 40 or 40 or 50 liter going down on a hundred liter board. And then I dunno, after one week of riding, you probably will find your 80 liter board as your prime board for a gusty, like wind conditions. And some of them probably after one month right at 40 liter port. So if I could give any advice is if you want to get straight into winging something new and you haven't any water sport or for sport background. It's easier to learn wind foiling than any other fall sport I would say, but with the right gear and the best would be probably to rent some big gear or get yourself a beginner lesson and then buy yourself a medium volume board. You can progress some, and don't think too extreme, not plan to do any flips in your first two months, but. Planned to get all those free writing tricks, which is so nice. You don't need to think about the jumping for me. I was almost one year. I was riding 182 board, so quite a big board, but I was mastering all the tax, the chives, and this gets unlimited. You can keep on trying, and training your your tricks. Yeah. And the  foil, it's like a 2000 square centimeter foil. But what kind of, what size spoils do you use now? Mostly like for years freestyle and wave riding and things like that. Yeah. I think it's what I'm using these days is like a three foil set up like three wings. So I still love to use the 2,100 foil, which is the beginner foil. But it's also my light too and foil. So in conditions like yesterday with eight nuts, I used the 2,100 in conditions. Like the day before, where we had 40 knots, I'm using an 820, so a much, much smaller. And for me, when I figured out with 1,500, 1,720, I can pretty much compass beside all conditions. But it's a difference between the steady wins in Hawaii or the gas, the Swiss conditions. That's what I realized. In Switzerland where we have conditions between five to 50 knots to good day and the wind tolls, they're so crazy. There is no, no wind at all. You drop down even on your big wings. So I realized we're using quite big wings compared to two ocean spots where the wind is steady and nice. But I still recommend if you get into waning to use a big foil for your first sessions, cause it's just way more fun and it's much, much easier. You can also fly that lower speeds and take off earlier and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it definitely, for beginners it's much nicer to have a bigger foil. Exactly in her way. Here in a while, we don't really have super strong wind either. You're not like modeling, but if you're riding waves, I just find a smaller oil is so much nicer on a way because you don't get overpowered by the, before it doesn't reach this. And as well, I realized riding waves on a big fall. You're constantly pushing yourself. Down in a bad position as you're not really using the way, if you're trying to escape the way. So when it comes to surfing, you need a high performance surf foil who actually does too much. But that's, that's, it's another sort of, it's another discipline, even I would say it's still winging, but it's a good point. I'm wondering in which direction it will turn. If it will be. As it is now, like all in one, that bit of racing, a bit of surfing mean the freestyling, or if you will turn ridiculously into racing as it did in any other world to sports. I hope not. If you could design your own contest, like what, how have you what's like a perfect competition to you? Like what if you could say, this is how I want the clients to be, what would you do? I would do a serve freestyle race competition, all in one like that. Yeah. But it's like the, it's like the old school surf competition where the hat you get racing through the short break, I'm doing tricks in between. This would be, this would show the ultimate Waterman and that would even change to gear. Like you need to control any and every gear, like a Waterman's leak. So that would be my ultimate competition. If it would exist. It's, it already exists. Tricks. And, but you also have to go as fast as you can surf the waves as well. Okay. We had a raised in Tarifa at the second world cup. We had the race, it was called the surf race. There was a. Two upfront laps, and then a down moment lab where we had to serve. Like you can see now in the back of, we put the wing behind us and we were surfing down. It was hundred meters surfing down with the waves. We were not allowed to lift up the wing. As long as the board would touch the water, we will be on zero speed anymore. So we had to go up wind full speed with quite a big foil. And then we had to surf down the chop. And the feeling was nice. Except some of the guys took very fast equipment and they were much faster upward than the other guys. And then they have to struggle on the down when it was a cool format and it needs to keep, we need to keep the fun in it. Otherwise it won't be America's cup and only polished high performance foil will we'll have any or any Chinese. We will see your wig. It's that was that was a stupid stand, a in a very safe like Uber, where the wing would just blow up the shore and that everything would have been safe, but it's very dangerous. And I wouldn't recommend anybody to get out on the ward to, without at least treat out the wing leash. And if the conditions are freezing cold, like they do here, if you lose your board, you're also screwed up. So it's much safer to use a leash, but also the question like, any, or every question in in waiting at the moment, it's hard to say what's perfect. It's hard to say. Wherever we need it. I mean their wrist leash. I use my wrist. I use the wind leash now around my belly, so I have all my hands free. That's what I do. It's unlike this. We can even swim. For a short second, you can swim normal with both hands.  But then if your board leash and your wing leash gets get screwed together, it's also pain. Yeah. It's hard to say. I would, anyway, these days I would say nothing anymore. Cause in probably two or three months we looked like easier. If we did it that way, I won't, I personally, I wonder how the Wing's gonna look like in three months, right? Is there any kind of, do you have any new developments that you're working on and or board or coil designs that like you're experimenting with new prototype? We, last night I almost couldn't sleep. That was always like my brain is spinning and thinking. And they're definitely a few, if you knew you progress, I'm not sure if it's a progress all the time, we try something. It feels like trial and error. And you're not really sure if it's a benefit or not. And at the moment as well in Switzerland, it's very hard to get new products with the pandemic crisis. So it takes us almost. Sometimes it takes us three months from the moment we had an idea till we get the first try and then it ends up being very frustrating. And you realize that you're not, you're stepping you stepping back sometimes almost. So the moment it's not that easy, buy them a goal or a wish for me would be for freestyle. I'm talking for freestyle when it will be a boom. Cause I still prefer the boom compared to the handles for freestyling, but there's so much benefits. And also, the boom is, again, it's more weight. It's not that simple anymore.  It's hard to say at the moment with MCs, we have a very cool and easy product where we can do freestyle tricks, whether it's surfing waves or even just beginning winging. It's not bad, but we can now no, for sure. But yeah, I agree. I really like having a blue more or like a planned or not makes it much easier as a, before the wing and grab it anywhere you want and you can use to rest, and do the small movements. I realized a lot. We have such performance wings. But if you twist  your hands, nothing moves on the wing, he just stays in one place. So then I'm asking myself, why are we using such high performance wings? If we don't even can do the fine tuning, the final test mean by the, by your hands. In windsurfing and kite surfing, it's the smallest wrist change can make a huge difference. So I'm sure there will be lots of development in this direction just to, to progress the sport. We'll see. But everything is still, it feels like everything is just at the beginning. Yeah. Maybe it's only been around for about two years commercially available where you can buy a wage. Hasn't been that long. What about your boards? I noticed like the, your Emmy boards, they have those parabolic rails  we'll make this snowboard rails. Yeah. So what is I do? What is the thinking behind that sheet? , for sure it comes from snowboarding, the designer, Woah. He's he used to be a very good snowboarder and what he wanted to get into the water sport were those carving abilities of a negative rails. And for sure, the negative res they, they need a certain flex to work, but we it's, we're not able to make flexible snowboard style surf boards at the moment.  Still be from the very beginning. What's so cool about this project is Amie project it's from the very beginning we tried outside with, we thought outside the box and we tried something else. And from lots of common and very famous shapers, I'm old, they're very traditional they're. They don't really think outside the box. They don't want to, I don't even want to try something that feels unnatural. So the coolest thing about this this Ambi project was just we try retry and we fail and we realize stuff. And what I realized with the negative rails, one of the biggest benefits. Now we're talking about just foiling as the tail is quite big. You can fully stand into your straps before you get going. So the volume is very compact below your body. And you got a super good balance. So that makes it easy for the takeoff before you're flying and as well, the negative rails, they keep to keep you more straight going forward on slower speeds. So you, it feels like you're taking off earlier with the negative rails. And of course when we using the boards without the fall, you can feel the CARF. There's a certain different card to it. Did you S you almost, it feels like you're gaining speed through the CARF.  It's a very cool project and it's different now. I like trying new stuff and Yeah. Sometimes it works out if it or everything comes together. And with those Ambi boards, the greatest thing about Ambius that Burnwell as a shaper is not telling me, Oh, you're crazy. This won't work. He's just Oh, let's try it and see where it goes and where it brings us. And it even brings us into big storms, this clip. Yeah, that's actually on Saturday, we were expecting a store like this as well, and then it just didn't happen. It was it was flying water at certain points, but it was between zero nuts to 50 knots. And and it was almost it was unsaleable and wind surfable. But with the wing, we had quite a lot of fun. It was just super Gaston. So you would say super strong winds. It's actually easier to wing foil then to Windsor for you if it's gusty. Yes. Because with the custody, yeah with the custody, with the gusty winds, the problem is if you get a gust in your sale, the forward movement is not really happening. It's just blowing into your sail and you feel a lot of power in your sale. You're not going anywhere. And with the wing as the wing, you're always able to stabilize the wing and put it in uterine so you can release much more wind. So a very strong gusts are are much smoother written with a wing. That's true. Right then.  It's a cool thing that year. It's still involved in all the business sports, like wind surfing and that crossover. It's pretty passive. Yeah. Even today I want to go kiting today. So that, that's the cool thing you're trying any and everything. You just do what you feel like and then get out on the water. See, you're always wearing a helmet. Have you had some really bad experiences? I've had some bad white box where you hit your head. Yeah, I used to have very bad winter five pounds, but I'm wearing this helmet already since I think 14 years. It's still the same helmet. No, my dad, when I was, yeah, my dad, he bought me a helmet. When I got into doing the first pre-style windsurf tricks and I'm still wearing the same helmet, just took, I took out of a layer of foam. So now it fits again. Perfect. But In the past. In the past years, I had so many gnarly crashes. And when you look at this home, it probably wouldn't be a, it wouldn't be a certified safety product anymore. It's full of scratches and cracks. But , even with the helmet I knocked out in the water. So it's definitely a good relationship to that helmet. Probably. I probably would miss. Yeah. That's the crazy thing. The crazy thing about water sport is if you, if something happens on the water surface and you're lying, knocked out in the water, you probably won't surf anymore. Any other day, you probably will become. So you always need to, you always need to keep in mind that you're playing. Playing on a dangerous surface, but that's also nice the surface. It's a big playground where you can do whatever you want. But I'd rather be safe than sorry. And then missing out on any or many good sessions to come. That's why I'm comfortable with my helmet. Yeah, that's good. Let's see. So you're lucky, but now I also need to find A good safety rest, because I think with those flavors, they're good impact. This is really important during these days, it's getting a bit scary and to foster so sharp. So I'm not that I'm not sure in which direction we'll go. Maybe this voice needs to get a bit softer, even soft edge or something is I think it's you don't want to stop yourself on your on your winglets. Yeah, pretty sharp down. Yeah, I see the industry and are producing lots of safety equipment as well, which is definitely good. Yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit about your training and arm also like visualization, like you said, like you dream about it and stuff like that, but like when you learn a new trick, like what's the process I don't know when you learn how to do a back flip or something, walk us through the whole process. As you said, for sure you need to treat my budget drink. And I'm always telling you need to be able to close your eyes and visualize your body movement from 360 degrees. So if you're not able to visualize in which position you're gonna pull yourself or throw yourself and British, so you will go half rotation up and then drop down straight and nothing happens. So you before you're trying it, you can always say trial and error, but if you try and there, or you're only going to hurt yourself, it's much smarter to try. We try to visualize your movements or maybe try them before you get on the water on the beach, on a trampoline. And I even took the ring on my, on the trampoline and I was doing flips. I, I didn't put too much pressure in the wing. So I was trying to flips on the trampoline with with the wing in my hands. And I ended up landing on top of the wing on the trampoline, almost chewed out the trampoline. It's safer. It's safer too, to be able to do the body movements before you get onto the foil and then destroy yourself. Cause it's different and awkward with the foil to do a flip, but but that's definitely the most important is to Treme about the trick dream about the rotation and And maybe even before you get on the water, close your eyes one more time and then get out and try it the way it feels safe and the way it feels natural. And for sure, for me, it's this, as you can see this flip here, it's from the winter background, it's almost the same movement or the same move as it in wind surfing. So that definitely helps if you're all at the If you're already at a certain level in wind surfing or kite surfing but still it's for me, it's it's exploding my mind. What's still to come because it's like a combination of a back loop and a push loop and you but you never really get back when you're not in the mood. You just yeah, but still I see people already trying some. Back when that air rotations, also also by mistake, I had some backward pushes and as you said, it's increasing the speed enormous, but it's probably also the way how we going to do doubles spins or something as we're doing it in windsurfing. Now these days with almost seven, seven, 1250 rotations in the air. So there's still lots to come. Yeah. And again, I w I'm really thankful these days that the wetsuit industry realized that surfing is not only happening in Hawaii.  Now these days I feel comfortable more with a very, with with with the good suits we're having, because it's not only board shorts riding, sadly for me at the moment, that's still, yeah. Yeah. So what kinds of, what do you use when it's like freezing cold outside? Yeah. Now these days I'm using the O'Neill suits and I'm mostly, I'm even warm in a four, three, but what I'm always telling everyone is it's useful to make like a onion layer. So you have a thin, like crappy low, and it gives you an extra layer. And that keeps you warm. And these are lates yourself. And the problem are only the hands it's on the body. You won't feel cold anymore. These days with the suits, it's just the hands and the head of the feet. We, the exactly. I'm wearing a very cat, like almost a five millimeter hat, but the problem. The problem with those tech hats. It closes your vision, the closest, your orientation, and you feel like you're yeah, you feel like you're in a bag or something and you can't really function. So that's the problem, but it also gives you a bit of safety. It feels like you're on destroyable as you're progressing. You explain what you do here. Like you switched the wing before the rotation, when you're still on the water, you're already starting to spin like a wing man. Exactly. And on this movement,  it's the main part of district is happening before the takeoff. As you said before, when I'm pulling the wing backwards, I put so much tension on my body. And as the wing is pulling the reverse and the board is still shooting forward. It generates such a fast rotation and it's it's very similar to the takeoffs in snowboarding. When they're going over a big kicker, they throw themselves before they actually India into the rotation. And they they generate those weird core rotations. They're cold. And yeah, as you can see it's happening now also in winging,  watching this, that you, I guess that, is that something that also that you learned from windsurfing freestyling, whereas this sort of thing, this is something you, but it's the. The way I started doing it. I was thinking about I was thinking about the wind surf tricks and with the freestyle tricks, we're talking, the says, are we putting the sail back winded? And we load it up in a, in an awkward position. And as it gets loaded up in this awkward position, it wants to get back to neutral again. And as it twist this back, it generates this rotation.  There's definitely much more to come in this direction also, really. This is both sides jumped out of those sides. Now we're also jumping in all of the regular stance and this is a backwards rotational. I'm also sure it's possible with a fro forward rotation. So there's still much more to come. And when we get through this clip here, At the, at one point a bit later, there will be a double pop move and it should, it's supposed to come soon. And I think those back to back, chumps going to be something for the future as well. This one here, this one is just a regular moves and now this one, so there's the first rotation landing and straight to second pop and And then the other one that land backwards and you ride the flow backwards. Okay. Exactly. But what I think what's definitely also possible is like this year, the back loop and a landing perfect on the wing and taking off straight again, like the air chair, the air chairman's sitting on their forests and they're doing like one flip landing, another flip landing and other flip landing. I'm curious maybe all industry believers turn into some, maybe we will get some, one offers, so only one wing, and then we could go probably better both ways like 20 kiting. It's already existing 24 Berlin where we're forced actually can go both ways. Definitely not about the cat. Look it up. It's a 20 filing. Yeah. They're like two same similar wings and they can go both ways. I'm excited to the time to be alive. Yeah. That's awesome. Very interesting stuff.  And you're working on some new moves is there anything that, that you're trying to do that nobody's done before? In winging there at the moment, latest trick is it's the chief's role, et cetera. It's a common winter move. One of the first rotations in winter thing it's existing, maybe 40 or so. And I'm stoked. I'm able to do it in windsurfing now almost with closed eyes and just the past week. And I was trying some cheese rolls with the wing. And the rotation felt awkward and weird, but I might need to rethink the take off and it's definitely possible.  That will be another three rotating over the strep. I was twisting my front hand and I was pulling the strap backwards and turning, like throwing myself over the leading edge. The problem was actually the takeoff as the wing was churning the rotation, but the foil was still behind me in the water. And then when it tripped over me, it just just stopped the rotation and nothing's been, they just did like a straight air with the foil above my head in a scorpion position. No about them. There's much more to come. And at the moment, I'm just waiting for warmer conditions. Cause it's the forecast for next week. It's all below zero, zero degrees. So it's going to freeze the wings again, and I'm not realized when the wing is frozen, everything is so stiff. You just don't feel like you want to try some new stuff. But but still it's just so much fun being on the water and writing. Have you damaged a wing because of the free does it break easier or crack or anything or the bladder breaks or something like that? No. Have you had any problems with it about the ladder? I'm not yet. Sure. If it's definitely, if you pump up the frozen, when you got to be careful. But what I realized with the window material there they cracked quite easy with with cold temperatures. So that's also a main reason why our first wings, they had wing windows. Then we put them out of the GAM. Again, the windows. Now we get windows again on our wings cause we need it for the safety. We don't need it for the performance, but we need it for the safety. And at the moment, yeah, with the winter says it's the same, this PE material. It's just get stiff when it's frozen. The cannot be material is more brave. It doesn't really. It doesn't really hurt the call, but but the bladder, I'm not sure. And the other day when I was pumping up my frozen ring, I was like, Oh no. So I was very careful, but so far sometime. So when, I guess like between snowboarding, when surfing, winging, kiting, you basically get on outside pretty much all the time. Do you ever do any other sports I cross training or other exercise? Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to say that, as you said, with all this action sports with lots of physic effort I really am when I'm going and getting back to bed, I'm bummed. The main focus I really need to, you really need to look at is staying flexible. Does it as when it gets into the shoulders gets into the arms you actually gain your muscles where you, but which you haven't experienced before and so important that you stay flexible. Cause it's a it's your it's your insurance for your old days? I would say that's what my dad always tells me.  I'm doing lots of yoga. I'm doing lots of pounds or thing. On a rolling on a skateboard. I really liked this this sort of exams and it's, I wouldn't say I'm into CrossFit or anything like this, cause I'm doing the CrossFit on the water, but besides that, I really need to stay flexible and I'm doing yoga on a regular base. It's good. It's good for the soul and good for the body. I think we. Went over most of the questions I had for you. I, what kind of, what do you think will happen with wing filing in the future? Do you see it becoming very, a very big sport, like bigger than wind surfing, kite surfing and all those sports? Or what do you think? Oh, that's ECS as football as it material. It's a lot of gear involved. So that doesn't really, that doesn't really puts swinging in a, in a. Benefit position compared to windsurfing a win, but definitely I see it lightly. It attracts lots of people and it will be there and it will be there to stay just as any other world to sports. I'm curious to see if it makes the Olympics. It probably will take 40 years or something to convince everyone that it's. It's it's nice to look at and definitely this the question of the spore will be if it gets too crazy and too complicated, especially the freestyle part and At the moment, the way it is now, it's accessible for everyone and that's why it's boosting up and it's exploding. And I hope it stays that way and it gets many people into water sports and puts a big smile on our faces. Yeah.  When people want to find out where body, Is the best place to look at your YouTube channel or your Instagram. If you want to find them on Instagram, it's ridicule. And then your YouTube channel is just yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So what else do you want to talk about? Any, anything else you want to cover your youth wing, floating in the snow? That's a pretty good one too.  Yeah. What that, what the hope is that Yeah. As you can see here with the freezing hands it's it's, it didn't stay. You see how people go into that much pain to just get on the water and enjoy this sport. And just yesterday I was thinking we were all out of our minds. There were like almost 15 to 20 wingers on the water and in the summertime, they only used to be like three or four people out. And it's just as winning recently hit our beaches and yeah, it's so cool to be part of this new revolution. Let's say it's a revolution and yeah, I just hope it's we're not gonna have any future body damages with all that spinning and flipping around because it looks a bit awkward there as I'm trying all those weird tricks, those new tricks. But it feels good being out there and I can't get enough of it. I want to get out again and excited to get on the water in 30 minutes. Yeah. It's so cool to watch you per your progression too. I remember seeing some videos of you maybe a couple of years ago when you were trying some of these spins or just wiping out, I've been out. And I was like, what is he trying to do? But then now you're pulling them off and it's. So amazing to see that. Thank you. Thank you. So who's your, who do you think I should interview next for the show? It's a good question. I would tell what I'm really curious about is the girls side, especially the Hawaiian girls like army. I just saw her throwing a backflip yesterday in the star. On these thoughts. Okay. I saw her showing a backflip, but I'm so curious if some of the girls will do backflips soon wing back flip soon. And I think there are a few girls up on the list. Olivia on the, and also, or my girlfriend. Definitely. It's cool to see that also the girl's side is pushing that the wing sport. And even yesterday there's been a few girls on the water. There was no, none of them was kiting or wind surfing and there'd been a few girls swimming. So it's cool to see that it also gets to go. Walter. Yeah, for sure. No, that's really good. A good idea to get a girl on the show. I should do that. Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Otherwise it gets another dickhead sports like all those tight, tighter windsurfer. We actually suffering. We self create too many mans at the beach being like testosterone. And it's good to see the change also in winning it's. Many new faces on the water. Now that's a good hype. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's get started. Yeah, so you have fun today and get on the water and post, keep posting all those videos. That's great. Thank you. And I'm looking forward. I'm looking forward to wa to visit Hawaii one of these days. I hope that it's still off my, on my pocket list. I haven't reached that far yet. Hopefully one of these days it'll be great to meet you here. Okay. Awesome. Looking forward to working with you guys for sure. Cool. You take care. All right. So that's it for the second episode of the blue planet show. I hope you enjoyed it. Please give it a thumbs up. If she liked it, subscribe to the blue planet, surfing YouTube channel down below, listen to the podcast. And I hope to see you next week for the third episode of the blue planet show. Thank you again for watching. See you on the water. Aloha. 

Transcript:  Aloha! It's Robert Stehlik with Blue Planet Surf.  Welcome to the very first episode of the Blue Planet show. I'm here in my home office, in the garage, and my neighbors are doing construction. So you might hear some noises from outside. I'm super excited about this new show and my first interview is with Zane Schweitzer and the show is all about wind foiling and lifestyle and technique. And so on equipment and anything about wing foiling which is what I'm super passionate about right now. And I want to know more about it. So that's why I want to interview all the top thought leaders on the leading edge of the sport athletes, designers, and so on. And next week's interview is going to be with Balz Muller He's in Switzerland. So we got a big time difference. I'm super excited to get him on the show as well. And talk a little bit about his super radical moves in wing foiling. I was inspired to start the show by Eric Antonson's progression project podcast, which if you haven't listened to it, you should check it out. I've been listening to it when I'm driving around. It is really a great podcast? And I'm going to post these interviews not only here on YouTube. But also on podcast channels.  That's going to be available soon. So if you don't have time to watch the whole thing on video, we will also have this available as podcasts. And I know it's pretty long form interviews, but I know if you're into wayfinding as much as I am, you'll be interested to watch the whole thing. So in this video, I asked Zane about his background as a Waterman. He started really young as a professional windsurfer and then stand up paddler. And then now as a professional foiler and also a coach and teacher. So he has a really good background. And then he talks about an accident. He recently had a really deep cut from his foil and the, from in the waves. And there's a lot of learning experiences that he shares in that. So it's good to listen to, but the visual is pretty gory and bloody. So if you're sensitive to that, he might want to skip ahead to around 30 minutes where we started talking about wind foiling, actually wind foiling. And then we talk about when filing a bunch and then at the end, We talk about life and life during the pandemic saying positive, having gratitude and so on. And that's actually my favorite parts of stick around for that really good stuff in the end too. So I hope you enjoy the show without further ado. Here is Zane Schweitzer. All right, Zane. Thanks so much for joining me. It's my first time doing this blue planet show. So super stoked to have you as my first guest. Yeah, thanks so much. It, yeah. It's great to have an opportunity to chat with you again, it's been a while since we've got the connect. So let's start a little bit about your, tell me a little bit about yourself and I'm gonna screen share and play some video of you growing up from YouTube. Let me see here. I was going to play this video.  Can you see that? Yeah. All right. So tell us a little bit about yourself growing up and all that. Yeah, I grew up here on West Valley over in, Kahana and, being surrounded by my big brother. Who's five years older than me and all his fans and as well, my, my parents. And all their friends I got to be surrounded by some pretty amazing watermen and water women. I think my brother really had a huge influence on me though, because at that time all him and his friends were like my heroes, like they were all the up and coming junior pros and the sharp board surf world, like dusty Payne and Ian Walsh and Granger Larson and clay Marzo. And so I was always chasing those guys around and. So I got introduced to, big wave surfing at Honolua Bay at a pretty young age, just chasing them around and think big wave surfing, really set me on a journey to just be super in tune with the ocean. When, as soon as I started feeling like the excitement of riding big waves, that's when I really fell, I was just caught by. No. And for all by the ocean, because the, for that time, I was probably more enthralled by my little mongoose bicycle, but yeah, pretty quickly, started to, get into winning, surfing and all that kind of stuff. And on the professional tour, I was about 12, 13 years old. When I first started on the professional tour for wind surfing. Yeah, I really, I first met you. That was that battle of the paddle, right?  The second battle of the paddle when you were just a little grim, I think just traveling by yourself, doing the race when you were still pretty young and yeah, and that was years after too. I was already a pretty. Familiar with traveling at that point, by the time standup paddling came into the world. But it's cool to see it go first full circle. Because when I was competing as a professional windsurfer, all of a sudden Starboard's started to make these standup pallet boards. And of course we heard of them seeing like guys like Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama out, driving paddleboards, doing downwinders and stuff, staying fit. I would sent us, sent me one actually Connor Baxter, and I believe we're like the first people in the whole country to, to get a standup paddleboard from star board. And we had so much fun on them before the wind surf event started. We would we would bring these up pal events on our travels and, before the wind came up, We would be out in the water, palling around catching waves and, doing all that kind stuff. And everywhere we went, people were like, what is that? What can we try this? And we would, young little, 13, 14, 15 year old. And we were like hosting clinics all over the world already at that age at wind surf events, sharing this new sport of up paddling and. And it's cool to see it come full circle.  We've seen kind of standup Palin and go from being,  this little, a niche of a thing to the world's fastest growing sport. And now here we go again, we got star board sending us hydrofoils. And earlier before that, I got to work with Alex, a Yara and this was my. My real first enthrallment with Stan, with with hydrofoiling excuse me. I tried it before with Brett lyrical when I was probably 10 years old, but it was just like one time and I was able to get up and go in, but my legs were too small for the strapped in boots. Cause at that time it was on a first-generation rush Randall. Foil Bret lyrical and all the boys layered Hamilton, all those guys were using and, they had one on the motu Island and, they asked if I wanted to give it a go and I threw my feet in it and was able to get a feel for flying, but never, I don't know. It just was a one-time thing. And until I saw. Alex testing these downwind foils. And I got involved with that early round of development with Gofoil and I, it just changed changed my world for sure. The first time getting out on a foil one of his gold foils, I remember riding it all the way to the beach and thinking this is the funnest thing ever. Like it was my Dan, the Hina, which I grew up riding and Hola Hina doesn't really ever get too exciting if you're, used to surfing barrels or, overhead waves, it's more of a longboard spot. But with the foil, it was so exciting. These little knee-high away, we were able to, ride all the way to the sand and then even pump back out. And this was. Before pumping was even a thing. It was just like, wow, we can make our way back out there. It's just Johnny, and it's amazing how fast it's changed because that feels like that was just months ago, let alone years ago. And  the gear has really changed. At that time we were putting 12 foot six race boards. Onto down lenders with the foil. And then we literally Ross mucin the owner of starboard and cornerbacks there. We would, you're on the boat. Cutting a foot at a time off the board. Oh, okay. 12 foot six then it worked. Let's try 11, six, then there's Stan on the boat with the hat saw cutting a carbon fiber all-star race board just chopping foot after foot. And then we got down to I want to say we got down to maybe eight feet or nine feet long. And the foil was just too far forward. At this point, it was like, it was just a scrap. And we're like, okay, now we know let's just go small. And after that I put a foil on my shortly after that. Maybe not immediately after that, but Modify the box huddle box onto one of my hyper nuts, a 69 hyper not, which was one. I know I've used that board a lot. Standup paddle surfing. And I already had the board around in my garage and had this thing modified for a go for oil. And it was so fun to be able to get out on a down Linder and just. Not even touch the water from malico bolts all the way to call her the Harbor, but not only that, the be going faster than I ever could have imagined and having so much fun the whole way down. It's. I don't think I've done a normal download mirror on a support. And it's probably been about a, I'd say four or five years since I've done like a solid season of training on a race board for down lenders  racing scene. You gave up on that pretty much. I didn't give up on it. I just, I'm having so much more fun doing other things and so much more other opportunities doing other things. There's, there was a few years in my career and in my life stand-up paddle racing had the most opportunity and there was a, it was floating my lifestyle to be able to be a big wave surfer at winds there for Astana, pallor, but really I was floating it from stout, pallor races and.  Now I feel like we have, we've had a little bit of a shift in trends, stand-up paddle racing and it's just taken a little bit of a dip and either foiling and wing riding or just taken off. And my sponsors are excited about it too. So if I love it and my sponsors want me to keep doing it. Then why go compete in a Lake in Europe to go paddle 17 miles flat water? For me it's not exactly where my heart is it, but I'm all, I'm definitely a guy who sees opportunity. And so I knew that I could train and I could be a great paddler. And I've won most of my world championship event wins that are under my bill or from racing. And it gave me so much experience to travel the world and to, get a taste of, really what it's like to be a true professional athlete and racing racers. I definitely it's different than surfers. You get into diet, you get into training, you do everything you can to get that incremental increase. And so just transferring those skills that I've learned in professional stand-up paddle racing. Into my surfing lifestyle, whether it's big wave surfing or foil surfing and wind surfing, I feel like I'm able to, make goals and smash them. And it's whether it's a mental obstacle or did I say mental, whether it's a mental obstacle or a physical obstacle, I think between the preparations that an experience in these different areas of sport. Can can implement it, even if it's just I'm just the, my wife and I are starting up our own a foundation this year. And it's funny because a lot of the lessons I've learned in sport, I'm transferring into business too. And yeah, but I, you do a lot of good things like beach cleanups and looking kids and all that kind of stuff. Is that what your foundation is going to be doing too? Yeah my, our unofficial not-for-profit that I've ran for about 12 years is the insane super drums. And we've introduced over 4,000 kids. We've lost track by now. It's been so unofficial, but definitely I'd say over 4,500 kids in the last 12 years to ocean spore and ocean activism and conservation. And our main goal of course, is getting them stoked on and having fun with each other. They're on the water. And then at the end of these Oh, and then at the end of these events, get the kids hands on with the beach cleanup or some sort of a science and education exercise around coral reef for microplastics or the Marine biology and the. Eco diversity in the area, there's it's a lot of fun. So that's something I've been enjoying doing on my travels and at home, on the side of competing and and training. And it's really rewarding because I give so much credit to where I am right now as a professional athlete, because of all the lessons and all the mentorship. I've had from, guys like Dave Kalama and my dad and Brett lyrical and Archie CalEPA. And I'm just so grateful to have had these these positive influences in my life. And I think growing up, my parents always encouraged me to share those same experiences. And now at COVID hitting, all contests going to nothing, it was a good time. I thought to really actually make our foundation official. So yeah, this is maybe one of the first public announcements actually. But our new foundation is  and Yeah, we'll link to that and have a place for people to get more information prepare. When I asked you by doing this interview, you told me you were laid up with stitches and so on.  Just wanted to get into the story. I probably just posted this video a few days ago on YouTube. So tell us about this day. I just stopped telling the whole story with what happened and stuff. It started off as, a pretty fun day just trying to hunt for some waves. And I knew it was a pretty windy day. So I brought my wing foil and foil gear as well. And  scored some waves at home, the little Bay first surfing, and there was a blast and the whole time I'm looking at the wind line, just thinking all it's cranking Lynne. And I cut my S my surf session, a little short to go wing foil at one of my favorite shrimp training spots, unless Molly, and it's a little more countryside. There's usually no one out on the water when I'm, if it's windy out. And definitely the only person, laying foiling the area. And so this same to go for this day. So I went out on my own very quick session. The tide was pretty low, which is normal for this spot. So I'm just getting my board out, upside down with the foil up and right before I cleared the reef, there is a set that came and it wasn't a big set, but it was, it was about head high, little overhead. And it was enough for me to hesitate letting go of my board because I had no leash with my board. And so I held onto my board, like just bear hugged it. And in the whitewash, as I'm getting pounded my foil swings around and mix my leg, or I might've even kicked the foil. I'm not even sure. Which part of the flow you hit or are you not sure? I'm almost positive. Just from the shape of the cut. My mom was positive. It was the trailing edge of the tail wing. And it wasn't very wide, but it was very deep. And that's why I say that because my tail wing isn't super wide. But it went a good inch and a half, two inches all the way to the bone. And so that's why I think it was the tailing. And the buzz is probably the sharper to it. Yeah, exactly. And so I'm guessing it was that trailing edge of the tail wing and was able to get in at an angle to go. Go down deep as opposed to slice. And so when I got, it definitely hurt, it felt like more of a Charlie horse at first, but as I'm getting back on through the waves, I'm like, I felt something flapping a little bit against my leg and I'm like, I lift my foot up out of the water, which you could see in the video. I'm like, Oh man, this, I cut myself. And just went straight in from there. And  learned a lot through this video and as well through my talk there, because I ended up doing tying my leg a little bit with my leash. It just seemed like the right thing to do. It was already attached to my leg. And I tied off my, my my calf a little bit thinking, I could slow down the bleeding and That for everyone who's watched this video and I've included in the caption as well. There's a big, biggest learning lesson for me is you probably don't need to turn a kit an injury, unless it's too big or messy of a cut to have a pressure, a wrap on. And so a pressure wrap would be better. And once I get back to my car, I realized, Oh, I got duct tape. And so I ended up using duct tape and And I also didn't know I had this little, I almost forgot I had this little first aid kit in my car and it had these gauze pads. And so that would've been ideal instead of tying it, just putting the gauze or a clean shirt or something, and then wrapping duct tape, a pressure wrap for a cut like this the time that a tourniquet would be necessary from what I learned. Is say if it was like a really wide open cut and you can't just put something over it to stop the bleeding and so yeah, I could have actually made my, then my situation worse if if I had a long drive, luckily I only had about 30 to 40 minutes before I was taken off the tourniquet and being seen by a doctor and Yeah. So that was my biggest lesson from that is yeah. Mean, I think for everyone who's into sports in general, but also hydrofoiling or surfing and that's over reef, it's always good to have some sort of first aid kit. This one that I had in my car was crap. It's a generic first aid kit now. After really having to deal with that. I'm like, I've re reassessed my first aid kit and I have a nice, a good sized bottle of alcohol and hydrogen peroxide. So immediately you could wash the wound and the area around the wound. You could have a bunch of gauze. There's, my gauze is great and duct tape or our ACE bandage. Cause then you could do a pressure rap, but I was lucky that I had some gauze, cause I probably would have ended up just doing a dirty shirt or something. Yeah. It looks like that duct tape was the best movie they made because then get a tight on there. Obviously we have a little bit of a delay here. That's why we sometimes talk over each other as  silence, but So in terms of like your learning experiences, obviously you said first aid kit, that's suitable for deeper cuts and stuff like that. What about Foil Hatton lane or, have you thought about just like Sandy, the trailing edge and here for us to make sure it's not as sharp or like any other learning experiences that you've been passing a hundred percent. To avoid all this, just wear a leash, like I, I had a 10 foot surf leash in my car that I used for my surf session before. And I actually, I was like, shoot, I forgot my foil board lease, which is normally a short. And thick leash. And and I held my longboard leash from my hand for a moment. And I'm like, ah, nah, I'll just know these shit today. It's nothing too crazy out there. This is just another session. I'm always out doing this anyway. And I, and because I didn't have Alicia on my board, I held on to my board and I kept it close to me. Whereas if I just had a leash on my ankle, even though it might not have been a dangerous day or anything that I can't. Control. It was a random situation where I chose to keep my gear closer than it needed to be. And so add a question button, this video real quick. It said that the clinic closes at 3:00 AM. You got there at three 15 and then, but then all of a sudden you're inside. Is that the same clinic or did he have to drive somewhere else or no, I had to drive to a different clinic all the way down. All right. No, not to call Louis. Luckily there is another Hina clinic open that closed at four and I was able to go visit them. Okay. Okay, cool. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Sorry, I should put like the little annotation or something on the video, so people know. Yeah. It seems like these nurses are really cool. And and then I was, I'm not going to show all thing. It's pretty gross. But then you actually pass out while they're stitching you up. Yeah. The funniest part was, these nurses are they're foil and they surf and we're already friends. And so when they saw me come into the office, they're like, Oh, what happened now?  And we got to, we we got to have fun with it and everything, but yeah, why I asked if they don't mind me filming and they're like, yeah, that's cool. Just don't pass out on us all laughing. And I'm like, yeah. Okay. Whatever, I'll be fine. I normally am pretty good with with all that injuries and treating, being there to treat yeah. But I think I got a little overwhelmed because I'm stitching, they're stitching me and I'm filming. And then all of a sudden, my mom called and my mom, when my mom called, I went to go answer her phone call. And as soon as I lifted the phone to my head, I just remember saying, I think I'm gunna. And I just. Went out. And luckily the other nurse that was there, caught me from rolling off the table. Oh, they also injected some like local anesthesia. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they, they really had to go deep in and clean it out. So  they shot me with Santa Ana, STI whatever pain relief stuff. And then they really got in there and scrubbed it with With these these hospital grade bristles. Yeah. So that's a important process, clean it because you don't want to get an infection, especially when you have a deep cut like that.  They ended up doing three different layers of stitches, one against the bone to close up the muscle. And that, that bar, or that bottom layer, and then another in the middle to pull together that Whitey, fleshy, fat look and stuff. And then another layer on top to close it all up. And by day two, I already felt an infection coming on. When my leg was starting to get swollen, my glands were getting swollen. I called up the doctor and I'm like, Hey I think it's getting infected. And so I came in and sure enough, it was They needed to on day four, I think it was, they reopened the whole thing. They cut open all three layers of stitches and they had to do this process all over again, where they got in and scrubbed it with the same stressful thing and and just flush it with beta Nene and all that good stuff. And and yeah, it got pretty bad actually to a certain point where I'm sure you're pretty familiar with staff and Marissa Robert, being here in Hawaii for so many years, but it's nothing to take lightly. And I've been hospitalized many times and threatened to even, have a lambs cutoff if it were to get any worse. And so I was on top of it, but. This infection happens so quick. It was crazy. And it got to the point where I was like, they almost sent me to the emergency room to get antibiotic Ivy, drip just through my system or I'd have to pretty much stay there for 12 to 24 hours and be monitored. But luckily we were able to catch it, and they reopened it. They were really aggressive with the cleaning and the draining process when they, when this. Dr. Heidi here stitched me back up after reopening it and cleaning it. What she did was she placed a rubber piece of tubing on, under the the bitches. And so for them, for the following days, it could actually continue draining out as it's healing. And that's what really, I think, did the job, was, that getting back in there and cleaning it.  And now I'm on the man. I think I'm in the clear and hopefully be back back on the water in the next five days or so. Nice. Wow. What an experience, huh? Yeah, I've had the same thing happened on my back like that. I hit the back the reef, lift my back and have a big cut and they sorta shut it and then it got infected inside and you had to reopen it and stuff like that was pretty, pretty bad zone. Whenever you have cuts like that, you almost have to heal from the inside out. Yeah. Otherwise it's and so you got the C bacteria. Yeah. It's gnarly, but anyways, let's not talk about that anymore. It's pretty good. Yeah, we got viewers tuning out. Get nosy. Yeah, maybe we can but yeah let's talk about wind fighting. Cause that's what my show is really supposed to be about wait, it goes into some wing foiling there after the doctor clips. Oh yeah. Let's play this one here. We get on West Molly last night. It's a good one. But yeah. So how long have you been waiting for now? I could look back at my journals and probably get an exact date, but  want to say. It was 2018 where I first got to try one with Alan kudus and Pete Cabrina at Kanawha or out wind surfing. And I saw them using a prototype Cabrina one. And I remember thinking, I, I saw it around cause Kai had his videos folk now with one of his wings on the early on. And this was around that same time. And. I remember talking to uncle Alan and uncle  I can I sample, I can sample uncle and they both looked at me with the most concerned look and they're like you don't have one of these yet. And I'm like, no, I don't have one of those things yet. Like what I try and they're like, God, this is the only one we have, like in all of Hawaii besides the one I had. Yeah, but just don't do anything crazy on it. And I'm like, okay. And and they were all pissed, because I got up on the thing and right away, just boom, just, I was up and riding and doing planning, jibes and tax. And I came in, Oh, that's pretty fun. They explode Mitch. And they're just all pissed. Like you just came in and out and we've been trying to do this for weeks and you and I met, I even threw a backflip on my first run out. And I, I remember thinking,  just from all my wind surf experience right away. And of course with the foil experience too, it was easy to put it together. I got up and ride. I'm like, okay, this is cool. What else can I do? Let's just roll the emotion of a bathroom. And I remember thinking like, Oh there's some potential in this for some pretty fun stuff. And , I very clearly remember sitting down that night and writing an email to to Stan and saying, Hey, Spann, I know you've been a little skeptical, wondering if this wing thing is going to be a trend, but  think this thing's going to stick around. I think it's pretty functional, and sure enough, here we are What two years later, three years later, I don't know what it was winging is taking over the community and in Maui at least, I mean on Maui everyone's winging. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. They call it the wind surfing crowd, but also the. Circle the prone surfers, I got into foiling and now they want to win foil. So it's almost like a bigger community than stand up paddling or wind surfing was that it seems like, yeah, just what's in many ways, it's bringing everyone together, which is cool. It's bringing everyone into one community, which it should be. It should be the ocean community,  and that's why I've really loved my experience with wing. Foiling is. Just like you said,  we're the real popular spa on Mallory right now is called Hulu Harbor. Now that's also one of the more popular spots for canoe paddling. It's also one of the more popular spots for foil surfing over at the break. And so now you have all these different communities merging together and everyone's getting a little taste for the wing stuff itself and yeah, so it's really cool to be able to also, I think the most unique thing though, is seeing surfers shortboard surfers, cause to me, a lot of my friends who shortboard surf are the most closed minded when it comes to being multi-faceted with multiple sports on the water they just don't care to do anything else. They just want to serve for you. If it's not good enough throughout the board, they don't want you to do with it.  And now I have friends who are like totally transitioned into foiling and wing riding, where it's hard for them to even get on their shortboard anymore because they just have so much more fun and feel that sense of freedom that we get to feel. And I, I don't think surfers truly understand that sense of freedom that a wind sport has. But it's, a lot of surfers has had the opportunity to get into. Hydrofoil surfing. Now, hydrofoil surfing is a good stepping stone into downwind riding. And then once you get into downwind foiling, you're like this you're tea, you're getting a taste of what that freedom is like. But as soon as you put a sail on your hand or a kite in your hand or a wing in your hand, You could just explore anywhere you want. It's a real special activity too, that really taps into the freedom of accessing all these different places on the water and being able to just explore up and down the coastline. So Zen, obviously in this video, you're doing like three sixties. You're practicing, like doing them over and over trying to get them done. So can you run us through kind of step-by-step what exactly what you're doing and like your hand placement and so on. Just give us like a step-by-step run on. Yeah, totally. And if anybody's interested for some more of this step-by-step stuff, I have a zero to hero wing boarding tutorial on On, I believe it's a free wing YouTube channel. We have seven episodes currently including a three 60 deep, really breaking it down. Should we take a look at that one? Okay. Probably better. So as I'm talking and get a better visual. But yeah, I've also, since COVID opened up my coaching and mentorship online to virtual classes, and so I started up the water sports division on belays coaching to IO real popular soccer coaching platform online. And we did we did a partnership with them to do foiling surfing and stand-up paddle. And so that's been a lot of fun too. People have been sending me a lot of foiling and wing clips lately, and it's a lot of fun to be able to break down these different maneuvers and help people from home, improve improve their confidence on the water with the foil or with the wing. Yeah, no, you've always been really into coaching and analyzing the technique. Yeah, I think that's something I really like about your videos to you're trying to break it down and make it easy to understand, but actually it's about tax and jive, so that's probably a little bit more applicable. But yeah. Like for more, a little bit more entry level stuff. Yeah. So one, one of the biggest things that people I think are asking me about are inquiring about on my social media channels and as well through my coaching is how to better their jobs and tax. With switched with switching stance. A lot of people coming from a surf or up paddle background aren't as familiar switching their feet with each turnaround as say a wind surfer or a caterer, it might be. So what I found to be a really easy breakdown of the jive is to be able to first do a little edge up wind. Don't just get lost going downwind because then you lose power in your sale. And so what I, what are your wing? Excuse me, before you turn downwind for your jive, do a little edge up when it's like to have power in the wing, or just make sure you have power in your wing, and then you could actually follow through and lead through your turn. Do a nice turn, holding the wing up above your head. And once your nose is pointing straight down wind, you can let go of your backhand and then start to transition your backhand to your front hand and your front to the back. And that's the point where then I'll start to do a little pump with the board up and down. And I switched my feet with the up and down motion. I found it to be a lot easier to. Go through that little quick motion of changing your feet from regular to goofy, or regular motion with that up and down pump with that rollercoaster motion, as opposed to just trying to go straight, stay still and then jump into position, and so that's something to really keep in mind that a lot of my students have found to be super helpful is both do your turnaround first with the wing. Once you switch your hands, your cross stance. Then you could go up and down with the little pumping motion, little roller coaster. And then on your, before you start driving down from a higher altitude, you could slide your slide your back foot to the middle position and do that quick transition from from your back foot to your front foot. And of course everyone's weight distribution and pivot points is going to be a little different according to their board and their foil. And it really just takes time getting that confidence and the quick shuffle. But remember that the wing is going to allow us to have the S the ability to do that shuffle, and also the slight engagement of the foil up and down. And so give  your foil something to do with that up and down motion before you go into that switch, and also make sure you have a little bit of power holding your weight up. So you do a little wait lists of footwork. Now one of the best exercises to practice this kind of stuff. I think for cross spore is his longboard surfing,  doing your cross, cross stepping and stuff like that. Also even just walking a curb in the parking lot before you go out, walk the curb and cross step your fee and maybe practice doing some quick changes with light footwork from one stance to the next. And Yeah, for the most part it's repetition. Even for me coming in from a windsurf background, it took me a little bit of time to really dial in getting comfortable and, still to this day there's certain situations where I'll choose to stay in my goofy foot stance. What I mean, especially when you haven't really, the smart board is actually, it's pretty hard to switch stands on. Yeah. You just don't have weapons room for two foot straps and stuff in the front to it. So you're on a wall and most guys that ride in shorter boards, they just don't switch their stance. But, and then another helpful tip is to when you do switch stance at the beginning, it's good to just. After the jive just dropped on the water, switch your feet and then come back up on the foil again. That makes a lot easier, until you're comfortable moving your feet around while you're up on the foil. Yeah, totally. You could bring the board back down to the water and have that extra stability for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Those are good tips. What about these jumps? Any, can you break those down? Yeah.  No for a little bit there. I was like starting to get a little bit I'm bored with the three 60 and this donkey kick. Cause it was like like everyone was doing it and it seemed like it was one of the only tricks you could do. And sure enough, that, that motivated me and I'm sure a lot of other people that try and get creative doing other things But these three sixties definitely gave me a lot of excitement in between that transition, cause the donkey kicks are probably the first maneuver I worked on and really dialed the three sixties, both front side and backside both into the wind and downwind were really fun. Variations of maneuvers to work on. And so I'd say the easiest variation of the three 60 is the downwind rotation in your normal stance. So not S not switch, not on your backside, just going out with in your natural stats are going in. If your natural stance is going in holding the wing doing a nice edge into the wind. Okay. And then a slight poll on the backhand as you kick your back foot out behind you and rotating downwind. And that one is a really fun variation, but what helps is to the quicker you transfer your hands. And as soon as you, you get off the water with a slight edge into the wind. Then you could give a little poll with your backhand, but it's more so just kicking out that back foot and almost doing like that one 80 motion with the the foil board. Once you let go of your back hand, that's, what's going to really light up your rotation. And so if you want to slow down your rotation, like in that one right there, I held on to the last moment to keep my rotation steady. And I'll have a change of pace, but if you want us to really speed it up, let go of that back hand, switch your hands and you get that quick rotation. Yeah. Now once you do come down, you've got to switch your hands really quick. Now this was actually a. Different from what I was explaining the X thousand, a backside one, but that's a good example. There's four different variations of three, six. These you could do your natural stance, your switch stance. And then you could also do it with a downwind rotation or an up window occasion. Have you tried the ones with the up? I've been trying to do the ones with the Uplander rotation, but keeping the sail keeping the wing and just spinning the wind when the wind have you tried those. It's so funny. Every time it looks like that every time I want to do one of those, like three sixties without into the wind without letting go, I ended up doing a backflip or like some sort of a sideways backflip. And it's funny because I have wing riders. Ah, shoot. I'm spacing his name. One of one of the last, so there's that wing event in Brazil? I think the guy got sec, second place. Oh yeah. Paul's Miller, right? Who got first place? Paul Mueller. Oh, and then what's his name? A younger kid. Yeah. I'm from new Caledonia. Tetouan yeah.  Teton. So Tiguan. Actually messaged me and he was like, dude, how in the heck are you doing your back? Flips like that, like more like straight up and down. And I responded back to him, dude. How in the heck are you doing you're sideways spinners? Yeah, it's just, our unique style is more I'm I more naturally can throw the top to bottom.  More like up and down type of flip, but I have a harder time with that more horizontal spinner.  seem to have the opposite where he maybe has a, some sort of a block for the straight up and down, back flip, but can do the sideways back flip slash three 60. And so I've been actually playing around with it quite a bit and still haven't. Felt super comfortable with that maneuver. But I do feel like the backflips are keeping me real busy. The other day I came pretty close to landing a double back. Oh no, maybe walk us through the back slope. Yeah, like what's I see it's almost like you're doing a windsurfing backs will be look for a steep ramp and you just throw yourself back, but can you break it down step by step a little bit? That's something I've been wanting to try. This is the backup.  As a windsurfer and for the Winster viewers that are listening you can relate to this Robert, approaching a lip or a wave for a back loop and a friend, a push loop is a little different, right? So I was making the mistake early on with my back flips of going too far into the wind. And there's a certain point where just the wing would be like awesome all up against my body. And then it's hard to bring the wing back in a position where it's getting powered up. And so then I started approaching it more like a push loop where actually just before you hit the wave, Go at a straight reach, maybe even a little bit on a downwind reach. And so just slightly downwind into the wave so that you could actually have the power in the wings throughout the rotation or throughout the majority of the rotation. And so you could see right there, there's a moment where  the back wind the wing like a push loop. But I'd say it's easier to do this with a little bit of download, as opposed to a little bit of upwind. And so right there, slight back wind. And then what you'd want to do is not have it get stuck in that back winded position. You want to be able to whip it right back up and over your head. So the more you could have the wing powered up throughout the rotation, the more smooth it's going to be. Okay. So you're saying go a little bit upwind more yeah I guess like a push loop, but then, do you think about throwing your head back? Like just trying to take, so I'm a takeoff. Totally. Yeah. So I take off point your point downwind slightly. And I like to think of it more so with the,  you angle the wing from pointing forward, like it is now to all of a sudden you just drive your upper pant your forward hand up your bottom hand around, and you're looking over  your front over your shoulder, behind your head and really throwing the wing like this, like whoop. Back towards the beach, you load up the power. So then you point it straight up in the air and then  your hands continue that momentum behind you. Now, all of a sudden you're swinging the wing behind you as your body's arched. And then from there you just got to, you time the arch, depending on how big your jump is. You arch more. If it's a big jump. And you are less than tuck. If it's a small jump for me, I have a lot more fun throwing it off of waves because I could get way higher and I could just have more fun with the arch and play with it a bit more. But the Flatwater ones you really have to spin them quit. You want to like it's all with the flat water ones. It's more of that slicing rotation. Like you go full speed. And you slice your foil slightly up Rand, a little bit. You hit that chop and immediately you're just throwing your feet up into the air. As your wing is getting powered up to the sky and pulling and throwing behind you. And with the Flatwater ones, I think it's really important to pull that front hand, pull that front hand in. And back when the wing sooner, rather than later. So you could  fold the, fold the flip as opposed to the smooth roll. Yeah. Cool. Thanks for that breakdown. Let's talk a little bit about here and stuff like, so what.  What have you learned about, the foil gear, the wings and all that kind of stuff?  Any, anything you can share on that? Just all top secret stuff. Not, yeah.  Try and ride whatever I can,  I'll try and give tests, test rides on all the gear, because I think. I think there's a lot of concepts floating around, but everyone's doing the same thing,  or at least in the past, it's been like that everyone was making the same type of thing type of design. Now you have people getting a little more out of the box. It's in a little more risky with the designs and concepts. And so testing gear right now is more exciting than ever. I of course work close with star board and AK durable supply coast. So the most majority of my sessions, I'm riding the star board foils or the AK foils. I've found that I've just wanting to go smaller and smaller. That's one of the biggest things that I've noticed with a lot of my wing riding lately is Anything with the wing in my hands, I'm probably going to be using a 1300, a thousand or an 800 on now. And so quite small wings, as opposed to what you might be riding in the waves. My most used wings Wing size for the actual LinkedIn. The inflatable wing is a four meter and a five meter. Believe it or not. Especially because I like a smaller hydrofoil wing. I sometimes prefer to have that little extra power to get me up and going. But of course on now you get away the three meter a lot. And those days where you do have the three meter wholly could really just feel so lively to be able to do some quick rotations and flips and things like that. But there's something about the four meter and the five meter that just flows. If you just want to fly high and. And flow.  Usually end up going one bigger than I want. Yeah, easy for beginners.  We usually recommend going with the bigger foil just because it makes it easier to come up out of the water and it's more stable and you can fly under then, yeah. The smaller foils are just once we get on a wave this cause the big foils. They're just not fast enough to keep up with the bigger ways or faster moving ways. And then for attorney to inquire that you do get that just the small nor the veteran really almost right. Yeah. Yeah. Th the idea is, the bigger, the more lift, the smaller, the less lift now with less surface area and a smaller wing, you also have the opportunity to go faster.  Would say if you're learning, you want to go on something around 1600 to maybe even 2000, if you're a bigger guy. Most of my lessons that I teach I'm at our foil school here on Maui. Cause we've been teaching hydrofoil as one of our primary activities, our surf school It's, most of our lessons are getting guys out for their first time on a 1600 behind the boat or a jet ski. And there seems to be a pretty comfortable size to not be moving too fast but have nice slow speed lift and control. But as you start getting better one of the things that you're going to start to notice maybe before speed, is that ability to roll into your turns. And so as a intermediate or beginner rider, you might not want to be rolling into turn so much. You want to do more flat pivotal turns where you're keeping the board flat, and you're just doing these direction changes, keeping the board flat, but. As you start to get better at it, you can have a little bit more opportunity for maneuvers, by leading into enrolling into your turns, the wider, your span is on your wings. The harder it is to roll into turns. And so that's one of the biggest reasons why I've really wanted to go smaller with wing riding. Because a lot of the time you're edging, right before going into the air for a big jump and a flip I'm edging into the wind for that last little bite of power. Or edging downwind, a little bit to release power. And so being able to have that little extra control of edging into the wind or Dowling turning side to side is important because as soon as the tip of the wing, Breaks the surface, if you're rolling over and you have a wide wingspan, th it's you're not going to be able to lean over as much before that wing hits the water and breaks the surface and then gets X-rated and you lose you lose all your all your lifts because air gets under the wing. And yeah, I think if you're working for more performance stuff, think about the width of your wing. Not necessarily just the size. Yeah. That's why I also like the super high aspect. Wings are not necessarily that easy to arrive because yeah, when you turn it, when you try to turn them, they breach more easily because they're so wide and I have such a wide wingspan and they don't have occurred. So having a lower aspect, sometimes in the ways it's actually easier to use a narrower phone. That's not as wide. But as I'm sure you're starting to see in your, local foil spots, it's, there's different types of foils. You have some people who are just really into pumping. Some people who are, who could care less about pumping and they just want to get their terms to be a little more critical and just make it look more like a shortboard maneuver, and then you get other guys who really want that. Just smooth ride and be able to not really turn too much, but just feel like their Cadillac, they're just cruising, and so depending on what style you want to achieve it's going to determine  your gear, and so if you like to pump around and you like to connect waves and you want to just stay up and riding, then Hey, a high aspect. Foil 13 to 1600 is probably going to be really nice. You might really like just pumping around catching plenty waves, but if you want to do start to do break the tip and do really nice snappy turns and really sharp radius turns, then maybe a more medium aspect, low aspects, foil. It's going to help for those sharper turns. So you were saying you do beginner lessons for foiling and stuff.  Maybe, can you talk a little bit about the most common mistakes people make and like sweet. Get some financing, just beginners, I guess the very beginning four-lane tips. Like what? Cause sometimes once you get more advanced, it's harder to think about  The challenges of learning. Yeah. Yeah, totally. One of the, one of the biggest things that I think helps for the student is to start with a clean slate, try to approach this sport humbly and almost forget about your previous board riding knowledge, because our surf knowledge, if we stick to it could hinder us. I also recommend doing some sort of mentorship or lesson if possible, because you, I've seen a lot of people who are very talented athletes, just beat themself up and spend more money than they need to both on gear and maybe even medical bills. There's a, there's an appropriate way to do this. And I, I tell you what. It's learning behind the boat or jet ski with a coach and in a controlled environment with the appropriate learning gear.  If you're a first time rider, you buy a kite surf foil on Craigslist and you Mount it to your short board and you try to go paddle around. I tell you what you're gonna have a hard time. So if you can. Get behind a boat or jet ski and start off with very little movements, keep your body and the majority of your weight over your your front foot, which is counter intuitive from other board sport. And also keep your center of gravity straight over that for oil or. More so you could think standing upright, which is also counter-intuitive from surfing. A lot of times surfing, we want to get really low and sometimes our butt and our chest has a tendency to get over the water foiling. We really want to try and bring our way over the foil. And so in the beginning, I'm always reminding my students, your center line, make sure your feet are completely along the stringer or the center of the board. Make sure you're starting off with the majority of your way over your front foot to keep the board on the water, make a goal of keeping the board on the water before you get into flight. And then from there you from control on the water, you could slowly distribute your way back towards your back foot and slowly achieve lift. Now, one of the biggest things that's going to help with the smooth transition here is to immediately shift forward again, because achieving lift is so much more easy than controlled landing. So as soon as you start to feel like you have control of the board on the water, your body over your front foot, then check your posture, stand up or rack. Keep  your body more upright and control that weight distribution back towards your back foot. And as soon as you feel that lift shift forward again, nice and smooth and bring the board back down because that transition. From nose up to nose down, lift to land is what's going to give us all of our control. It's that transition up to down, that transition from water flowing on the bottom side of the wing to the top side of the wind. So as soon as you feel that lifts shift forward again, and then you can take it slowly from there a little higher and shift forward, bring it back down. A little higher shift forward. And instead of bringing it down, just neutral, level it out, you're not going higher. You're not going lower. You're just have it level. You're focusing on your eyes and your breath your eyes focusing out in front of you, and also focusing on your breath, minimizing your movements, because the best thing you can do, especially if we're talking controlled speed behind the boat, holding the rope. Is keep your movements minimal and control your weight distribution from the front to the back and back to front. Do you have people like when they are being on the boat yard to all try to get out of the week or do you have straight behind the boat? Oh, totally. Yeah. I think you'll feel real quick. Those bubbles from the weight and this these. You want to immediately get out of the bubbles and out of the weight in order to feel a little bit of control and feel that smooth sensation of foil moving through water,  relate it to an airplane. Would you rather be flying on an airplane it's her the whole time, or would you rather be flying and smooth air? No, it's the same thing. If you want controlled flight, then try and find smooth water outside of the turbulence from the engine. All right. Yeah, it was this really good point. It's going to begin here. I appreciate you for sharing so much love to my YouTube channel, Robert. Yeah, I got it. That's the whole idea of play some videos while you're talking. So talk a little bit about like on Instagram you were showing some I had some footage of you when filing a jaws, getting  guess you were actually let go of the wing and then the assertive without the wing. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, totally. So that was really exciting. I was a little under prepared as far as my equipment goes, because I only had My smallest wings I could get my hands on from AK was an 800 square centimeter. And this is something that I pump around on and surf with in shoulder high waves, but it was the smallest thing I had. So I decided I would build my experience out at payoff, then see how it works. And so I was out on my normal setup that we saw there in that video for eight. A four eight board with an 800 square centimeter foil. And I didn't have a jet ski year or a budget to pay for a team. And so I went out there thinking, Hey if it's a tow day and or if it's windy, I'm not going to miss on the action. I'm just a pump up my, and go wing into some waves and have some fun. And I was just thinking of it as like a way to stay out there and have fun, right. Accessibility opportunity. And and yeah, I ended up having a lot of fun, getting into some waves with the wing, and that was the first day anyone's ever taken a wing out at out at Paoli. And it was not as functional as I thought with that foil though. And the wing itself, because I couldn't get going fast enough with the speed of that wave. I kept feeling the sensation that I was stuck at the top of the wave or at the middle of the wave using my wing. And eventually with, because what happens? The wave moves so fast and it hits the Tradewinds to the point where the wind is literally going straight up. It hits the wave and it just creates a parent lift going straight up. And so as I'm dropping in, down into the wave, the force of the apparent wind against my inflatable wing is more. And so I want to drop in, but it's actually lifting me out the back. And so I thought. I'm just going to ditch my wing. I took, I went back to the channel. I took my leash off of my wing. I I  gave a little heads up to one of the jet ski drivers and I was like, Hey, I might let go on my wing. Can you get it? And he's okay. And so I went into the wave and I, right as the apparent wind started to catch me and lift me up, I let go of my wing and was able to just continue riding the wave with my hydrofoil. But, even then I realized it's not just my wing, that's slowing me down. It's actually my hydrofoil too. I mean my 800 Senan square centimeter hydrofoil, I felt like I was completely maxing the thing out, just leaning so far forward, trying to keep the thing controlled and Yeah, I still, I couldn't quite go as deep as I want it to or get as critical. I really ride how I wanted to, but regardless I got to build experience foiling out at  and I got to learn a lot about what kind of equipment might work and what isn't going to work out there. And no, after talking with Kai, he was like, dude, you're crazy. I can't believe you're out there with that foil. And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's I would never ride anything like this size on anything bigger than like a 300. And I'm like Oh shoot. Okay. 300, 400 good. That's a hell of a lot smaller than 800, I was happy to be able to pull off what I could with what I have, I don't have the big budget to make custom wings or a big budget to have water safety and jet ski teams. But I got to have so much fun that day with the self assist, with the wing and riding with foil. And it was a good day for it. So it wasn't super crowded. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm waiting for my big wave foil though. I told star board and AK I'm like, dude, I need a foil to push start building more experience in big surf because I'm comfortable in big waves. I really want to push the limits. I just need something that will allow me to handle that speed. And in that force, I'm sure. A few days after that, I think Kailani was writing. Even postseason a video of him, like getting these errors on the off the face of the wave and like floating down the face of the closet. Yeah. And that was actually just with a normal toe board. Yeah. He's pulled into those ways, right? Yeah. So that was, I wanna say The end of Jan. I don't quite remember when he did that, but the day that I went out was January 3rd and sixth with the win-win. And later Kailani went out. I want to see later in January and he got surf his toe team pulled him with with the tow rope on the jet ski and one hand with the wing and then got into it on his toe board. No foil. And then as soon as he grabbed on to the wing, it was pretty much fly time because that apparent window I was telling you about. And there's definitely something to be said about opportunities for just no foil on a toe board, having fun with that apparent lift. And if you're a, if you're a hang glider then, you look for those locations where you have that apparent lift to give you that nice long flight when you when you slide off now, this essentially the same thing, except the mountain is moving into the wind. And so honestly, I can't wait to try that. That looks so fricking fun. What you guys did with the with the tow board and the wing. I'm really excited to give that a go. It's pretty inside. It's a little hesitate temp for me though. I'm as I'm goofy footed. And so as soon as I got get off the water in that situation with my body, lower body, all twisted my upper body, my lower body wants to start doing a three 60. And so it's but I'm going to get, I'm going to find someone to tow me in like that and give that a go once. Once my injury heals up, for sure. Yeah, it's amazing. He gets so much float out of that. Like this fund here a lot of brands go straight up the face. So it's like this floating in the air. It's so cool. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If he sees an, if you see, tell him, I'm interested in talking to him about that too. Charlie, let's just talk a little bit about, advice, life nutrition what you do to. Hey saying during the pandemic and stuff had gotten any advice for people? I know I, during the pandemic, I went to know so many people are struggling with loneliness or addiction and things like that. Depressed,  any lifestyle or any tips on living, living your best life,  as Robert, we're very fortunate with our location here through this pandemic. But we still have experienced, a taste of the law, the lockdown and business closures, and,  it was a pretty crazy time even on Maui. I'm not sure what it was like on a wall, but it was wild and I'm very grateful that I was able to be home through this because there is a A short time there where I was stuck in Indonesia through February. And all of a sudden borders were closing. Airlines are shutting down and I couldn't get home, no matter how much money I had, I couldn't get home. And it was scary at that point, but luckily, we were able to find a flight home and I made it back. And so I started off this pandemic with a good attitude because. I was facing the reality that I might be in a foreign country without my family through this really uncertain times. Early February when I started, when literally all of Bali shut down and my contest dollars there for canceled, all of a sudden, I tried to get flights home. You couldn't even get connected with the airlines. They've busy slides shut down too busy. And so it was. For me to get home and be with my family. It was like a sigh of relief. But then I started realizing this is actually real serious. Like I started losing a lot of my sponsorship funding. Our business shut down. Our surf school had to legally shut down. Our All pretty much all our whole community had to stay inside for a certain time. And  started to feel like, Whoa, this is our whole lives may change. And I didn't want to let that consume me too much. And so I I tried to stay as busy as I could, however I could, whether it was, Keeping up with home workouts while at home, I'm doing pushups and pull ups and sit ups and rebuilding my website and catching up on emails and all that computer work that I always put aside because I'm having too much fun in the water. That first month was like a lot of catch up. I was able to catch up on stuff and then the second month came and I'm like, Oh, this is still happening. And, Still not making money for anything, not are any of our businesses are sponsors. And so I started to realize, I need to get creative, making some money. And I started offering online coaching through since we couldn't do coaching at our school, I started doing online coaching and I S I got a lot of people doing wings, full and foil video submissions for personal coaching. And that kept me pretty occupied for a bit. One of my big goals that's been lately, keeping me really motivated is starting my foundation. I mentioned earlier, I have had an unofficial not-for-profit for over 12 years called the insane super gums. And now we've we've decided to go all out and get our five Oh one C3 and. Get us in a position where we could do more for the kids in our community. And so our mission at  is to inspire the KCI, to choose healthy, active lifestyles that uplift our community and environment through mentorship and sport. And and we try to get kids stoked on surfing or paddling and boiling and in return inspire them to be ocean guardians themselves and care for. This natural environment that, that brings so much opportunity into our lives. And we offer scholarships and equipment. And and so now that I actually have this five Oh one C3 filed and we got our website going and it's the last thing too. If someone wants to donate, where do they go? They could go to  dot com and that's K a H a. K U K H i.com or they could reach out to me through any of my social media and I'll share the info. Our website is not public yet. We're still working on launching and we should have our five Oh one C3 paperwork within the following month. So we're, so my wife and I are really excited about that. Because now it'll give us a chance to  maybe even. Get more kids that we want involved in these programs because in the past, we weren't legally allowed to pick up people. They had to already have rides. Now that we have a foundation, we could actually pick up at risk kids, underprivileged kids, alternatively abled kids, and be able to physically take them to the beach and and get them set up with scholarships for equipment, for mentorship. For education and science based programs and a hundred percent with the goal to give these kids passion on the water and a reason to to be guardians of our community and environment. And  that's been keeping me so excited lately and, especially with this now I'm, can't be in the water at all. It's been really fun. But for everyone out there who is on more serious lockdown, I have friends out in the Philippines and all over Asia, we're still it's serious lockdown. And the best thing we can do in these times  is true and keep our mental and our physical fitness up, and our mental and physical health is so important. And so it's too easy to get caught up, looking at Facebook or YouTube or Netflix all day. If you're locked up in your home, give, make a goal, give yourself one hour, start with just one hour to yourself, whether it's trying to do some stretching, some breathing, a little bit of physical fitness and exercise. Even if you have a tiny little studio apartment, maybe that means just doing some Wim, Hof breathing, maybe that means doing some push-ups and pull-ups maybe that means doing some journaling,  and getting familiar with a daily routine that you could have. That's all, distractions, because I think even for myself it's so easy to just wake up and. Get sidetracked in work or in social media or brand caught up with the overwhelming, whatever you have going on in life. And I noticed that if I don't give myself that time, which is usually best in the morning for me, first thing, just give myself that time to, to know how I feel, to know what I want to know. If it helps me throughout my day. Yeah. Sorry then to drift down do you have a routine things that you do every morning? Like a certain routine that every morning do for care? Exactly. Like what you do after you get up? I love to drink tea. So tea is a good routine for me. I'll wake up, I'll get some tea going. I like to do my morning journaling. My morning journaling consists of a meditation. That's instilled it. It starts off with writing down three things you're grateful for. And and this was a practice. My grandmother left with me.  She told me that grab at with the attitude of gratitude. You'll never have an excuse to be unhappy when you're grateful. You'll always have something to be happy for. And so through these times, I think it's more important than ever to stick to my journaling routine. And I've kept up to this over the last 10 years, almost to the day, no matter where I am in the world. And so I try and I'm keeping to that, my morning journaling starts with gratitude and then it starts with three things that I could do to make today. Great. Three things that would make my day feel proactive or feel. Feel successful. And first thing in the morning I'll sit there and it might even take me 10 minutes to really think what do I want to accomplish today? According to how I feel, according to my current state of mind and my wellbeing what do I want to do today? And just those three little sentences that I write down that determines every choice I make for the rest of the day. Then if I met with the choice. To watch a Netflix show or to work on my website because I did that little journaling in the morning. I'm not going to get sidetracked and procrastinate. I'm going to get straight to one step closer to my day, being successful to my day, being one step more amazing. And then I'll also finish it with A daily affirmation on a community a community goal, which I call a blue life choice. And Robert, if you've been following me over the year, as you've probably seen this hashtag I've been sharing,  live a deep blue life deep hashtag deep blue life, hashtag blue life choices, hashtag embrace the power of choi

In this episode I interview Connor Baxter and Dave Kalama at the finish of the 2012 Maui to Molokai SUP Race for Radio Chum.