Podcast appearances and mentions of jim burgen

Are you letting your past fly your future?This week, we kicked off At The Movies with Top Gun Maverick—and it's way more than jets and adrenaline. Jim Burgen unpacked how guilt, shame, pride, and fear keep us stuck living a small, wounded life. Maverick's struggle mirrors ours: you can have all the skills in the world and still be haunted by what you haven't surrendered. Through Jesus, we can let go of the wreckage and finally live free, forgiven, and on mission.

Ever felt like you've gone too far to be forgiven?This Easter message from Jim Burgen hits deep—because it's for the guy who didn't mean to get lost, the one who got dropped, and the one who flat-out chose the wrong path. Through the stories of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son, Jesus makes one thing clear: no matter how you got lost, He's coming for you—not to shame you, but to carry you home. If you're stuck in your own version of the outhouse, this is your rescue story.What changed? Jesus didn't wait for us to get our act together. He met us in the mess—before the speech, before the apology, before the clean-up. Grace comes first. Whether you wandered off, got thrown away, or ran headfirst into the gutter, Jesus is still scanning the horizon for your return. And when you turn around, there's no lecture… just a robe, a ring, a feast—and a Father who calls you son again.

On this episode of the MTNTOUGH Podcast, Dustin sits down with Jim Burgen, Lead Pastor of Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. Jim shares insights from his leadership experience, the challenges of guiding a large church, and how he helps men reset through Moss Rock Ranch, a retreat space designed for leaders to recharge.Jim opens up about the importance of taking time to pause and rest, and how men can take ownership of their spiritual, mental, and emotional health through events like Herd 90, his version of the 75 Hard program.Follow Jim on Instagram @jimburgen and visit jimburgen.com for more details.Make sure to subscribe to The MTNTOUGH Podcast, and subscribe to our YouTube channel @mtntoughfitness.Presented by Sig Sauer.----

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In this episode, Jim Burgen and Jesse DeYoung from Flatirons Church pull back the curtain on leadership transitions, developing leaders from within, and the power of trust in executive roles. They reveal what's working—and what they've learned the hard way in navigating conflict, prioritizing staff health, and the role of sabbaticals in sustaining long-term leadership. If you're leading in a church or nonprofit, this conversation is packed with practical takeaways for building a thriving, mission-driven team.

What do you feel when you imagine standing face to face with God? Fear? Doubt? Hope? This message dives deep into the scandal of God's Kingdom—a Kingdom not built on being "good enough" but on Jesus' grace, available to everyone, right here, right now. From Mary's fear to Peter's doubt, we'll see how Jesus flips the script, offering life and purpose to those who think they're too broken to belong. The Kingdom of the Heavens is closer than you think—come on, get in.

What's stopping you from living out your faith boldly? In this powerful message, Jim Burgen unpacks what it means to engage in the Great Commission. Jesus didn't call us to sit on the sidelines—He called us to share our story and step into His mission. Discover how trusting Jesus, being led by the Spirit, and uniting in mission can transform your life and the lives of those around you. God uses ordinary people to bring extraordinary hope. Could He be calling you?

What does it mean to be united in mission? It's not just a slogan—it's a call to action for every follower of Jesus. In this message, Jim Burgen unpacks Flatirons Community Church's mission to bring the awesome life of Christ to a lost and broken world. Built on the truth that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, this message challenges us to step into purpose, serve others, and live out our faith. Are you ready to join the mission?

Do you feel like you're living life with the faith of Jesus or just trying to get by? In this powerful message, Jim Burgen explores how many Christians put their faith in Jesus but never experience the full, abundant life He promised. Learn what it means to be Led by the Spirit—beyond mere belief and into true transformation. Discover how your faith can grow from trusting Jesus to embodying His faith, reshaping how you face every challenge. Are you ready to move from “playing not to lose” to living as more than a conqueror? Join Jim on this life-changing journey.

In this episode, we begin our series of conversations with the guest preachers for The Church of Eleven22's Saturated 2024 with Pastor Jim Burgen of Flatirons Community Church in Lafayette, CO. Let's get into it… Episode notes and links HERE. Donate to support our mission of equipping men to push back darkness. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Come and See: The Church is a Place for the Broken. On Saturated Wednesday, Pastor Jim Burgen reminds us about the importance of creating a welcoming church environment for all people, especially those who are broken, lost, and struggling. The Church of Eleven22® is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. Eleven22 is led by Pastor Joby Martin and based in Jacksonville, Florida, with multiple campuses throughout Jacksonville and the surrounding areas. To learn more about how God is moving at Eleven22, visit coe22.com.

Have you ever just felt lost? Today we'll uncover how the shepherd boys story in Luke 2 isn't that different than when we experience moments of uncertainty. Jim Burgen we'll show us how their journey sheds light on our own, offering hope. Let's shift our perspective —hit play and let's unravel the unexpected.

Have you ever just felt lost? Today we'll uncover how the shepherd boys story in Luke 2 isn't that different than when we experience moments of uncertainty. Jim Burgen we'll show us how their journey sheds light on our own, offering hope. Let's shift our perspective —hit play and let's unravel the unexpected.

What does God say about marriage, gender, sexuality, and divorce? Today, Jim Burgen draws from Scripture to shed light on God's original plan for humanity and how we can strive to live in harmony with it. As we explore the biblical perspective on marriage and singleness, this message emphasizes the importance of aligning our lives with God's design for us.

What does God say about marriage, gender, sexuality, and divorce? Today, Jim Burgen draws from Scripture to shed light on God's original plan for humanity and how we can strive to live in harmony with it. As we explore the biblical perspective on marriage and singleness, this message emphasizes the importance of aligning our lives with God's design for us.

Guest Bios Show Transcript Victims of adult clergy sexual abuse often report that their first wound—the abuse itself—was awful. But it wasn't as bad as the second wound: the response by the church to their abuse.  This is precisely what Moriah Smothers and her husband, Jack, describe in a follow-up conversation to our initial podcast interview about the alleged abuse Moriah received at the hands of her former pastor, Patrick Garcia. In this podcast, Moriah tells of the shame and rejection she experienced from other church members when her abuse was mislabeled an “affair.” Some called her “Judas.” Others told her the devil had got the upper hand. The backlash left both Moriah and Jack devastated and confused.  Yet after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier edition of The Roys Report podcast with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. She said it led her to an epiphany and significant healing.  It also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront leaders at their former church—The Hills Church in Evansville, Ind.—for how they handled Moriah's abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia.   You'll hear how Russell and the Hills Church responded. And you'll hear Moriah and Jack's impassioned plea for the church and other Christian institutions to start dealing with clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way. Guests Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. You can connect with them at jackandmoriahsmothers@gmail.com. Moriah has also been affiliated with Restored Voices Collective, a nonprofit group that seeks to break the silence around ACSA. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, PAUL LINGE, JIM BURGEN JULIE ROYS 00:04 In 2020, Moriah Smothers says her spiritual and sexual abuse by her pastor was suddenly exposed. Only no one recognized it as abuse. Instead, it was labeled an affair, and Moriah was ostracized by her church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and this is part two of a two part podcast with Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. In part one, Moriah told of what she believes was grooming and abused by her former pastor Patrick Garcia. And if you haven't heard part one, I encourage you to go back and listen to that now. It's a harrowing and cautionary tale about how adult clergy sexual abuse happens. And I wish more Christians understood this phenomenon because it's a widespread problem wreaking havoc in the church. But so often it goes undetected, and the victims instead of receiving help receive condemnation, and the predators often get re platformed only to continue their predatory ways. So again, if you haven't heard part one, I encourage you to do that now.

 But in this podcast, Moriah and Jack describe what is often called the second wound. This was the response of their church to Moriah's adult clergy sexual abuse, and the shame and the rejection that Moriah experienced was absolutely devastating. But you'll also hear how after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier podcast that we did on The Roys Report with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse and hearing that podcast and recognizing that it wasn't an affair, but abuse led to a ton of healing. But it also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront the leaders at their former church, Hills church in Evansville, Indiana, for how they handled Maria's abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia. You'll hear Bob Russell and the Hills church responded, and you'll hear Moriah and Jack's impassioned plea that the church and other Christian institutions start dealing with adult clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way. So, I'm very excited to share this podcast with you. But first, I'd like to thank our sponsors, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. We now pick up my conversation with Moriah and Jack Smothers. They previously described how their pastor Patrick Garcia groomed Moriah and then abused his power by luring her into an emotional and sexual relationship. This was eventually discovered by Patrick's wife, who then told the church leadership. And this is where we join our discussion. So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah? MORIAH SMOTHERS 03:49 I don't want to over exaggerate this and I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was 10 times more traumatizing than the abuse. I could have recovered from the abuse in a reasonable amount of time, I feel but the literature when you read about this, it calls it the second wound. And the first is that having just that abuse experience, but then the church response was really painful. I don't think the church had any knowledge of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so we were basically told again, through zoom, I think Dave was designated to be the person that communicates with us, nobody else really did, that they were going to release a statement. This is what the statement was. We were not involved in any of the processes the information. I did again, we thought we only had a fair narrative. We had no information about ACSA. And so I did send a text message. Jack and I thought it was a good idea at the time to some of the women I was really close to and I disclosed that this situation had to do with me. In hindsight that was not a good choice because of the way I worded it but oddly, one of the things I've struggled to recover the most from, were some of the communications from my very best friends from the church. And most of them were very involved in the church as well. And so one of the ones that has just stuck with me is when your identity is eviscerated, things just have the ability to sink really deep. One of them was calling me Judas and Patrick's wife at the time was like Jesus. A lot of them wrote, you need to get help, you really let the devil win was a common one I got. I'll never trust you again was often. And I will say those that were ugly, hurt, they hit really deep. I did get a few women to respond or just like I don't understand but I'm praying for you. And very little support from within the church. I do want to say that God was really I wouldn't have been able to make this big faith statement a year ago, but I realized now God was so good. He sent I didn't know this woman, but she was local. When she heard what was happening at the Hills. She is also a survivor. And she asked for my contact information from a mutual acquaintance. And she immediately got in contact with me and has mentored me, she didn't know about abuse either. But she and her husband made it and were thriving. But it was another abuse situation locally and just was such a good mentor to me. So, inside the church, the response was not supportive. It was not understanding. We were ostracized, basically. Even people we love dearly the extent of support was basically like, go get marriage counseling, and so not supportive. Outside the church, nobody we met understood ACSA. So I'm not saying that we still never got the language. But there were some people that were able to love on us. Our next-door neighbors, were just Jesus to us. This fellow survivor, my parents came around us very quickly. And so we did have some support that we you know, a lot of people don't have, so I want to acknowledge that. JULIE ROYS 07:04 Wow. Jack during this time, you and Moriah's parents met with Dave Bowersox and Daryl Maron. As I'm understanding that was a pretty tough meeting. Would you describe what happened in that meeting? JACK SMOTHERS 07:22 It was intense. But so Moriah's parents are wonderful, amazing Christians, they have invested a lot into Moriah and I, and we trust them, we love them. And so we felt that it would be good to take them along. And I'm glad that they went. They've done a lot of counseling in their life. And so they took resources, books, a variety of different resources to help Dave and Daryl in the Hills guard against situations like this occurring again. So they gave them those resources. And we talked through the situation, they shared some of the information that they had, such as you know, I was not aware at that point in time, of the May encounter that had happened at the zoo and police report. And since I was not allowed to come to that meeting with Moriah, I didn't have that information. MORIAH SMOTHERS 08:22 There's was an investigation. JACK SMOTHERS 08:23 There was an investigation. They hired an investigator to look into Patrick's devices to see if they could uncover anything. And I guess that went on throughout the summer. And when that didn't come up with anything that he was re platformed later on in that fall. JULIE ROYS 08:41 Help me understand this. And maybe I misheard you, you're saying there was an investigation, they looked at all the devices, and then they re platformed Patrick? JACK SMOTHERS 08:52 Yeah, The investigation came up with nothing, they did not find any communication. Their suspicion of communication. But they didn't find anything between Patrick and so this was after just to clarify, this was after the May event. JULIE ROYS 09:08 Got you. So in between the two? JACK SMOTHERS 09:10 There was that investigation that didn't come up with anything. When everything finally did come out, and what was that? September? October? That's when the meeting happened with Moriah's parents and myself and the pastors. JULIE ROYS 09:25 And is it true that Dave Bowersox confessed during that meeting that he was aware that Patrick had an attraction to Moriah? JACK SMOTHERS 09:34 That is true. So Dave's advice to Patrick was just get a handle on it, get it under control and resolve your old feelings, essentially. They felt like Patrick may have targeted Moriah, but they said that they felt like Moriah was complicit in that situation. Of course, they didn't understand at the time the ACSA framework and that complicity would not be possible in that situation. So it was high drama. JULIE ROYS 10:03 Stunning to me that seminaries don't teach this. It's against the law. I wish it was in more states, but in certain states, it is against the law for a pastor to have a relationship like this with a congregant. It seems like we're, maybe we're just on the cusp of becoming awake to this. But even as I have interviewed pastors, and say, hypothetically, do you think it would necessarily be abuse if a pastor has a relationship with a married congregant? And there'll be like, we don't know what the role of the woman was. Like, I don't even understand the basics of exactly what you said, Jack, that when there's a power differential, someone cannot give consent, when there's that kind of power. But it's just stunning to me complete and utter ignorance. And it's inexcusable. Every pastor should be aware of this. The same way that you have to go through training with Title XI, if you work for a university, pastors need to go through this kind of training, if they're going to serve in the pastorate and so do all the elders and the people who are holding them accountable. But it is just not happening. And it's really unbelievably frustrating. MORIAH SMOTHERS 11:19 Yeah. And really, that's the heart of why we're talking to you, is that you're right. It's illegal in 14 states right now. Understanding adult clergy sexual abuse is a job requisite skill at this point. 20 years ago, maybe not knowing maybe I can get it. There's so much literature now and fantastic researchers that this has been discussed too widely to claim ignorance at this point. And so I completely agree with you. There should be no ignorance of this issue. JULIE ROYS 11:50 In the wake of what happened is my understanding that Hills church actually paid for counseling for Patrick, is that right? JACK SMOTHERS 11:57 That's what they told us. JULIE ROYS 11:59 Okay, did they pay for counseling for you? JACK SMOTHERS 12:02 They did not. JULIE ROYS 12:03 Help me understand that? Did they give any kind of explanation for that? JACK SMOTHERS 12:08 No, we didn't ask them to pay for anything. MORIAH SMOTHERS 12:11 I chose a counselor because my survivor friend had also seen this woman. And again, she didn't know she was actually a survivor at the time. And so she was affiliated with a church that the Hills did not want us to receive counseling from. And so they actually discouraged me from seeing a counselor. They wanted us to see a counselor that was also I believe, seeing Patrick and his wife at the time. And so I was uncomfortable seeing a counselor that they recommended, which they didn't offer to pay for anything either way. But again, Julie, our supportive statement was go get marriage counseling. As if our marriage was broken, not that I was targeted and groomed and abused, confusing. JULIE ROYS 12:55 And the statement that was given at the time called it an inappropriate relationship, correct? Patrick did say that it was his fault, and no one but him. His fault, yet seems like some mixed messages in what was being said. MORIAH SMOTHERS 13:10 And there was no disclosure, I was a congregant. And I think that while there was no overtly blaming me in this situation there, I felt like the context of the sermon was, frankly tacky. It was preaching from the woman caught in adultery. And it was from the lens of a let's not throw the first stone but as a broken woman, I listened to it. That was all I heard is the adultery piece. They had all the advisory boards stand up front, and you could just see their disgust on their face. It was a group I should have been part of. Because if anybody had known I was missing, that would have been very a clear signal if they had known. It really has always bothered me, they never disclosed I was a congregant. I think that was very intentional. Actually, Dave Bowersox had apologized. He said, I'm so sorry you all are having to go through with this. And Jack, I think he said something like, I'm sure there's not a script for it. And they've said, Oh, no, there actually is. So they received counsel from somewhere about how to handle these situations. JULIE ROYS 14:13 They didn't make you were a big Scarlet A, at least. I guess we've progressed a little bit. But unbelievable. Yeah, what you went through and I'm so sorry. That just sounds absolutely traumatizing. For a year while you're in biblical counseling, you're believing the narrative. How did you internalize what you had done and the consequence? MORIAH SMOTHERS 14:40 Yeah. Oh, man, that's complicated. Julie, honestly, a lot of pieces did not make sense. But I was so desperate to keep my family together. I was willing to take responsibility for anything and everything. And so that's what I did for a season is I did a lot of work with my biblical counselor to figure out what was wrong with me. Like how had I sinned, how had I fallen, I will own it, I will repent for everything under the sun. Because I wanted to be well and whole. I didn't understand how this happened because I didn't want to have an affair. To be honest, I'm not even attracted to Patrick. I had no clue how this happened. But all we had was a fair framework. My mom tried to be really sweet and helpful gave me like a fair recovery books and things. And I started to read them. And I was like, this isn't me, this isn't I'm not represented in this. And so I will say the counselor I saw, knew nothing about abuse and trauma for this situation. She did some good soul care kind of things with me. But yeah, we were just trying to keep it together with the fair. JULIE ROYS 15:47 Wow. That's a very humble response, and so often we don't see those. You can only do what you know. But when you know, then you're responsible. And that's super, super important. It seems like you did have an epiphany. And it was on a podcast that we published, which, when I hear things like that it's so heartening. We work in the trenches a lot from day to day. And it's not the easiest work. But things like that, to hear stories of how it has impact is, it can give you some fuel for a decent amount of time. So I'll just say that it just is really encouraging. MORIAH SMOTHERS 15:47 He won't say this, but my biggest source of healing was Jack. That sweet man, we walked together a lot. That's where we bond as we walk. And so like we were walking every day for miles and miles. And he was my counselor at that time. And how deeply unfair for him to have been traumatized the way he was, and yet he was supporting me. I wanted basically nothing to do with faith at that point. And I've loved Jesus my whole life basically, that I thought, How can God cannot be good if my pastor treated me this way. Which I could have gotten over that, but I thought, There's no way the church is good or right, if it's been covered up by other pastors. So I was relying on Jack's faith. And Jack never asked me to leave. And again, we thought affair, never asked me to leave. He never yelled at me. There was a moment that it's still it's really hard to talk about. It was very soon after all of this had come out. And again, I was following him around the house because I was dazed and confused what had happened. He stopped in the doorway, and our kids were sitting there watching. And he said, I just feel so much compassion for you. And that was the first time he hugged me since it all came out. And I don't usually cry. I'm not a crier. I sobbed and sobbed in the hallway. And it was like, from that moment, I knew we were going to be okay. But it was hard. It was a hard road. And I did get some bad advice spiritually. The counselor told me that God had probably planned this for me, maybe for Patrick Garcia to get out of ministry. And I thought, man, if that's what God plans for the children he loves, I don't want to follow that God anymore. So that was a rough road. I will say for that counselor, Jack and I once we did realize what had happened, that it was abuse, we went back to her, presnted that. She graciously received that she apologized to us for not knowing. And so I have a lot of respect for her for that reason. And I'm excited for the work she's going to do in the future with this new knowledge. JULIE ROYS 17:49 But you heard a podcast, I guess it was November 2021, that I recorded with Katie Roberts, a beautiful, wonderful person that has become a friend, because I've been able to share her story with a lot of you. And so courageously she walked through what was incredibly difficult, and she took incredible hits from people criticizing her. It is just so indicative of the misogyny in our culture, that we just have such a difficult time wrapping our heads around the fact that women are not the temptress or that we cannot acknowledge that this is abuse. But Katie, beautifully did, and you heard that podcast when she talked about her own grooming, and abuse. Talk about what that was like to hear that and for the light bulb to go on. MORIAH SMOTHERS 19:23 That was an epiphany and that's exactly what it was. I'd been listening to your podcast for a while because I didn't have the words but I felt like something was mishandled here. It just, what happened in the church, it didn't sit right. Like I knew it didn't feel like justice somehow but I didn't know why. And I've been listening to you for a while Katie came on. And I remember almost feeling a little shaky and scared because I felt like she's telling my story. Like how could she possibly know what happened to me? And how has it happened to her? And this was way before I knew that there's so many similarities between these grooming and abuse stories with clergy. And I listened to the whole thing, I sent it to everybody in our support network, which let's be honest, that actually wasn't very many people at the time. But anybody that knew our story and would listen, I sent them the podcast. And I was like, how can this be? The language she used to explain like the grooming and the trauma bonding, the love bombing. She used the language that I had been describing, but didn't have the right word for it. And so it was such a weird thing. But I remember feeling I have to know more about this. And so I looked up Katie's email, and I emailed her and I said, I don't know if this makes any sense or not. But this is my story. And I shared it all. And she responded, and we ended up hopping on a phone call or zoom, I don't remember. But her first words to me, I actually wrote them down to share at the end of this podcast, because there was so much compassion when she heard my story. And she said, I'm so sorry how you've been mistreated. And from someone outside of my circle, but didn't have to love me and hear my story, that was such a powerful moment, because she got it. And while we were talking, she kept saying I understand, and that makes sense. And I thought, I didn't even understand all of this, and she did. And that's another part of the reason we're talking to you is that we found truth and understanding and freedom through Katie's story, which I know was a grueling experience for her. And I thought if the Lord is going to bring this opportunity full circle, where I learned through Katie, if someone can hear our story, and hear the tragedy, but also the hope, then we can't pass that up. JULIE ROYS 21:53 I love that. And I have found that nobody can minister to a survivor like another survivor. MORIAH SMOTHERS 22:03 I've learned the most through that community, there's a support group community that Katie and a few others founded. It's called Restored Voices Collective, and the learning, the growth, the empathy that happens in there, it could not be replicated, and it's only other survivors. So we're just supporting each other, we're not trying to overly educate or correct, it's just living life together in the aftermath of deep brokenness. JULIE ROYS 22:33 And I think that's what I've heard and what I've experienced, what I've seen. The Restore Conference that we've done, you know, a couple of those. And I remember the first one, I thought, oh, we should have prayer ministers, you know, to make sure because really, I mean, the whole vision was just to gather people that were literally strewn along the highway. I mean, that's just how it seems when you report these stories, and the church isn't caring for them, the church harmed them. And so they have nowhere to go and to see them come together. And I realize the prayer ministers are here, they're each other, right? It's the person who's sitting down right beside you, who you don't have to explain hardly anything because they get it. And it really is. And I know the survivor community is not perfect. And sometimes there can be some really painful things that happen within it. But I would say 90-95% of the people in there are just some of the most compassionate, good people because their character has been refined by fire. MORIAH SMOTHERS 23:39 And I attended your last Restore conference, and I got to meet a lot of the women I'd only known online up until that point, through zoom meetings, and one of the things that struck me is that personally, they're very normal, seeming. It's like when you feel so broken and devastated. Which is strange to me, like these very regular moms and women, but what I also know about them is they are warriors, they are so strong and so capable and intelligent. And that was an amazing experience just to see like my supporters in person. And that was amazing. Thank you for putting on those conferences, because I got to meet my people in person because of that. JULIE ROYS 24:20 It's a pleasure to do it really is and it's an honor. And we have another one coming up. So October 13 and 14th. If you're interested in that, I hope if you're listening you can because honestly, being with those people and experiencing what God does there, is probably one of the favorite things that I've ever done in my life. I absolutely love it. So it's RESTORE2023.COM if you want more information on that. So talk about the difference and you've already touched on it but the healing journey for you and Jack having this new perspective that this was not an affair that this was abuse, that you are a victim, that you're a survivor walking through this, what difference did that make emotionally and relationally, but also spiritually? MORIAH SMOTHERS 25:16 Oh, that's a big question. So I will say, for me the language made all the difference. Because earlier in the podcast you mentioned, I wrote that I felt like an addict. Now, knowing that description while being true is describing trauma bonding, that was really powerful. And I think because I'm a teacher person, like, language has been so healing for me. And it's given me search terms, basically, to read about what does this mean. So that's been a huge part of my healing. And then also being able to teach other people in my life about this is what this means this is how this happens. And just having the right words to study has been very healing. Also, I would say, understanding ACSA was healing in and of itself, because there's so many pieces of who I am, who Jack was, our life didn't just didn't fit affair. And so it felt very insufficient. And we did not have answers. Once we had this framework and understood how this happens, I started talking to other survivors, hearing similarities and stories. It's a really sad club to be part of. But then you have your other people to compare notes with. And so you have options and choices again, that I never had before. And so again, we were happy healing in private with that, but that made a big difference. My faith was a battle though. I think, intellectually, and emotionally, Jack was so stable for me and such a good listener, he helped me heal up in that way. My faith was a big, I still struggle with that, if I'm being completely honest. I was really ready to walk away for a while thinking that there's no goodness in church, I don't see how God can be good if these are the people that are leading a church. And so I got to a place in my faith that I realized that, so our kids committed their life to Jesus as well before, while I was really still struggling, which was such a beautiful thing. So I really felt like to be a good wife and mom, I've got to figure out this faith thing. Because I was willing at that point, I'll follow Jack wherever he goes. So if I have to attend church and just be mentally elsewhere, I will. But I knew I've got to figure out what this is. So I mentally went through like the major religions. And I was like, I don't see myself becoming a Buddhist and like really going through, like, where am I going to land because I'm a faithful person, I always have been, I knew I needed a religion, or faith. And so I thought, gosh, well probably like my best option is just really going with some kind of new age thing. But I would be a horrible God to myself. And so I felt like that's not on the table. And so I thought, Okay, I've got to figure out what do I really believe about Jesus? Because Jack has been being Jesus to me. And I don't mean that in a weird way, just like modeling the goodness of God, like I was holding on to his faith. And for the first year, again, only affair framework, I was able to read the Psalms, which was fine, like that was good, it was a start. But then when I realized I've got to make my mind up about what I think about Jesus, I started reading the gospels again. And that was a moment for me that I realized, I absolutely love the person of Jesus Christ, and that our hearts were so much in alignment about, he rarely called out anyone in sin or the vulnerable. He called out religious leaders for the way they were hurting vulnerable populations. And so that was a turning point for me is that, first of all, Jack modeled faith to me. He modeled the love of Jesus, which kept me hanging on by a thread. And then once I could finally reengage with the Word of God, I just focused on the person of Jesus. And I was able to fall back in love with him and really have some deeper roots again. I say now, and I completely mean this. The only people in my life I really trust are Jack and Jesus. JULIE ROYS 29:08 Wow. I love the honesty and the vulnerability. And I don't know anyone who has walked through church hurt, or certainly adult clergy sexual abuse- that's just brutal – who hasn't struggled in their faith in their walk with the Lord. I just spent the weekend with a survivor and, boy, they were raw, and they were honest, and I've been through it too. So. MORIAH SMOTHERS 29:40 And we're really healed up in a lot of ways. But I mean, we're almost three years out, but church is hard still. We've just moved. We're looking for a new church home. It's hard. And there's a lot of triggers and red flags and it's just even when you're in a good place and you really love the people. It's just hard. JULIE ROYS 29:56 It is, but I will say one thing, my teachers, Katie has been a teacher. Lori Anne Thompson has been a teacher. And they've been gracious with me like when I've written something and I used a wrong word or a wrong term, and they won't mince words. They'll reach out to me, but they're gracious when I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not. Yep. Okay. Help me understand. MORIAH SMOTHERS 30:22 That's survivor community, they are loving but they are fierce and I love that about them. JULIE ROYS 30:27 Yes, they are. But I think it's so important to process what's happened. And I know just my own church hurt, experience, being able to process with people that you're not going to rack them, if you just say exactly how you're feeling in the moment. And that's just super, super important. Let's turn to holding the church accountable, because after this happened after you became enlightened about what had actually happened to you, you reached out to the Hills leadership, and you wrote them a letter, you've given me a copy of that letter. I think it's so good. I would love for you to just read it because my understanding is you sent this letter, so far, you haven't gotten a response. MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:17 No, I think it was confirmed it was received. Actually, the first letter I sent Jack was really kind. Again, I know we've been harsh about the church we came from, the Hills. We love a lot of the people there. I think there's some good things happening there. Out of respect, Jack met with Dave Bowersox to let them know this letter is coming. But besides that, you did get a response after this letter, though. Didn't he call you? JACK SMOTHERS 31:42 He did respond. I don't know if it was a call or an email. But he did respond. MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:45 And I think it was basically like we mishandled the situation was the response. I wrote this letter in fall 2021. So that was right after learning about adult clergy sexual abuse. So I will say I've learned a lot more since then. There are a few pieces of it that knowing what I know now, I would reword differently. But this is right where I was at having learned it, so I'll read it for what it is. My Hills church leadership. For most of the past year, Jack and I have been trying to navigate our way through this situation, with the framework and language that surrounds an affair or inappropriate relationship, which implies there was full consent from both people. While many of my choices were sinful and I egregiously sinned against God and Jack, it did not account for many of the experiences represented within the reading and counseling in which we engaged. I voraciously sought material to gain an understanding of what happened with the hopes that knowledge would alleviate my confusion and brokenness. In doing so I recently discovered the concept of adult clergy sexual abuse, ACSA, and for the first time I understood what had occurred. With this new knowledge, I felt compelled that we as the church need to grow in this area. Upon reflection, Jack, and I believe there are two logical explanations for the way that Hills leadership handled the situation, which include either ignorance or intentional misrepresentation. From an assumption of ignorance, if you had been aware of power dynamics requirements for consent, the cycle of ACSA abuse, how targets are chosen by predators and the grooming process, then this situation would have been conveyed to the congregation differently. The alternate explanation is that you received legal/peer counsel to minimize the liability of the church by intentionally misrepresenting clergy abuse as an inappropriate relationship. Regardless of the explanation of what happened in the past, there is much work to be done going forward to minister to those who have been hurt within the church. Therefore, I am writing to you with the hope that you as an institution will be able to grow and change as I have been growing and changing in my understanding and the implications of this critical issue. I hope you have read and shared my side of the story with the church leadership, elders, pastors and advisory council, which was given to you in fall 2020. However, if you have not, I suggest you review it so you have an anecdotal understanding of ACSA in this specific situation. Given my new understanding of power differentials and how they apply to pastors and congregants, I fully believe I was exploited by Patrick Garcia, and it was erroneous and misleading for the church leadership to convey it as an inappropriate relationship, which conveys consent. The predatory nature of the lead pastor was not communicated to the congregation, which is of great concern to me because it minimizes the impact of abuse within the church. I've included several resources on ACSA and I pray that you will educate yourselves and your leadership teams on the nuances of this type of abuse, how to effectively prevent it and how to handle it with integrity and transparency if it does occur. The reason that I am writing to you is threefold. One, I ask that you reach out to other potential victims and provide them with the support and resources to understand misconduct, grooming and abuse by spiritual/pastoral leader. As you are likely not aware of all the victims who have been adversely impacted by pastoral misconduct in the church you lead, an open invitation to all congregants is likely needed. Please connect them with a female counselor that is well versed in adult clergy sexual abuse and misconduct. The wounds from this are complex and deep. So I implore you to seek out your hurting sheep and care for them. Two, I ask that you share my story and ACSA resources with anyone in the church that you consider a leader. In my opinion, this means the elder board, pastoral staff and advisory board at a minimum. It is the church leadership's responsibility to shepherd their flock with care and dignity. Choosing to not educate yourselves when a wolf has wreaked havoc on your congregation is not living up to the call our Lord has placed on your role. Number three, I ask that you inform the perpetrator and people from whom you received counsel, that this was not simply an inappropriate relationship, that it falls under the criteria of adult clergy sexual abuse. By doing this, I hope you will clearly communicate that God's church is a place that abuse in any forum is not tolerated, because your primary goal is to protect the people under your care. I then provide some working definitions of clergy sexual misconduct, clergy sexual abuse and abuse of power. And then there were hyperlinked resources at the bottom. JULIE ROYS 32:41 So you asked for three things. Of those three things that you asked for, have you gotten any of them? MORIAH SMOTHERS 35:40 If any of those things have been done, they have not been communicated to us. JULIE ROYS 36:39 Okay. And, Jack, you had a conversation with Dave Bowersox after he received this letter? What did he say? JACK SMOTHERS 36:50 They were still processing what their response was going to be. And so he did thank me for meeting with him before we sent the letter to give him a heads up about what our intention was in sending the letter. But that was the extent of the response that we received. JULIE ROYS 37:06 And then you send a follow up letter to a couple months later, still nothing. MORIAH SMOTHERS 37:10 No. I reminded them of the request, and I sent the follow up, not to just be hounding them, but it was when everything had come out in a bigger way with the SBC. And so I thought surely this will get their attention that they'll realize how serious this is because the SBC even came out and said that if a pastor is in a relationship with a congregant, it's abuse, and that's a disqualifying sin. And so I thought having this outside entity that is that powerful, repent, hopefully, that should speak volumes to them. I received confirmation it was received, but I have not heard word if anything was actually done. JULIE ROYS 37:50 Right. And when this is called an affair and not abuse, it does open the door for the person to reoffend, and to continue doing this. And there may be others who have similarly been groomed by Patrick. MORIAH SMOTHERS 38:07 I've been told very specific information about those situations, which makes me think it's credible, but I have not had interaction or communication with any women that would say that. But again, they probably wouldn't even know it was grooming. JULIE ROYS 38:21 So now, almost three years have passed since Patrick resigned from the Hills. When he did so he said he was going to undergo a quote, season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed. Christian Post just published this article in June in which Patrick says he's repented. He said, he's gotten to the root of his pride. He's preaching again. Do you believe Patrick Garcia is repentant? And why or why not? JACK SMOTHERS 38:53 I'll give my thoughts on that. Not to dodge the question, but I don't believe it matters whether or not he is repentant. I believe that an abuser is disqualified from ministry regardless of whether or not they repent. I hope that he has restored his relationship with God. I hope that all abusers come to an understanding of the pain that they have inflicted and are genuinely sorry and repent from that sin. But that does not mean they are then qualified to stay in that profession. They can go get any other job anywhere in the world, but not that one. MORIAH SMOTHERS 39:35 Actually, one of the things I feel strongly about is that I hope he's repentant. I hope everyone repents, but that does not mean there's leadership roles out there for them. I think actually, repentance means not seeking out leadership, because that's where this pain occurred. Like clearly that's a temptation that's a difficult area. Restore your relationship with God and be involved in a healthy body, church body. But I don't think that means leadership. And that's where I'm seeing my biggest concerns are about the church right now is that repentance equates to re-platforming. And I don't think that's what that means. JULIE ROYS 40:13 And when trust is betrayed, trust has to be earned back. And honestly, I said this not too long ago, but some of these guys don't have enough time in their life to earn back the trust that they've squandered and that they betrayed. But I agree with you. And I know there's going to be people who disagree. And what about David? We've talked about this so many times on podcasts, or listen to other podcasts, we've addressed this ad nauseam, but I'm just so tired of it. Above reproach is the qualification in Scripture for an elder. Are you above reproach? I have a tough time thinking that someone who has preyed on a congregant. Think about that; you're supposed to be a shepherd, and you became the wolf. How we could ever put that person back in the sheep pen again. And the amount of concern and compassion and let's pray for the predator that you hear. And the little that you hear about praying and concern and care for the victim is appalling. And I think it's very indicative of the kind of culture that we live in, which puts celebrities up on the platform. And man, if you are an order, and you you have the right stuff, boy, people just love you. But man, if you're not, and you happen to be in the way of someone getting back on that platform, it's very difficult. So I asked Jim Bergen, he's the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado, and Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, whether or not they thought that Patrick was ready to return to ministry, whether he should be replatformed. I got two very different responses. So I'd like to play both of them. First, here's how Jim Bergen responded. JIM BURGEN 42:12 Patrick absolutely messed up in a simple way with this woman. Her degree of willingness or participation. I don't know anything about she didn't call me. Patrick confessed to me, and I okay about disclose everything you know, and get on it. And even as he's starting to move back into ministry, I have a lot of texts going hey, do you think I can preach again? Do you think I can preach again? And I'm like, slow down. Because it's been, I don't think, we lose most of the New Testament and all of the Old Testament, if sexual sin disqualifies you from ministry forever. I mean, David, we lose Abraham, okay. But I don't think that when a pastor makes a mistake like this, it's a death sentence forever. But it definitely is a slow, long healing process. And that's what I cautioned him with, over and over again. JULIE ROYS 43:04 Okay, clearly, Jim Bergen doesn't share our view on this. MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:09 Really, Jim Burgen understand or know any survivors of ACSA. Just sexual sin and not the spiritual or emotional or psychological. He needs some education on that. JULIE ROYS 43:20 He does. And actually, in our conversation, I pushed back on that and asked him about spiritual abuse, about adult clergy sexual abuse, as well, and what qualifies. And it was clear to me that a lot of this was new to him. MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:35 Yeah, we've met some really, truly good men, good shepherds, pastors that we have a lot of respect for. They don't know. And I'm just floored by that. JACK SMOTHERS 43:47 But the good ones respond with a desire to learn. Yes, and that's really encouraging. Moriah has done a wonderful job of putting together training on ACSA. We've been able to deliver that to two different churches, and it's just fantastic and encouraging and edifying to see the godly people who get it and they want to improve they want to protect their congregation and guard against wolf-like behavior. JULIE ROYS 44:16 As I said, I also asked Paul Linge about this question, and I'd like to play his response. PAUL LINGE 44:23 Christian Post article stated that he did meet with Crossroads elders as part of what I think was I don't remember if it was Southeast or Bob Russell in particular but basically trying to put him on a restoration pathway which to me was grossly inefficient. General sense was it was a box to check rather than any kind of your display of repentance. Because for him to really go on a restoration journey with the people at Crossroads and Evansville. That's not a one-time meeting. There's probably months of meeting, based on the damage that was created in our community. So that's why it feels very superficial. I personally, and just through my own contacts have not seen the necessary repentance, or else he would be spending a lot more time in Evansville, the community that he helped blow up if that were true. And so I don't, I think the article comes across as in not just to me, but to others in our communities who read it, as though he was somehow the victim, whether that was the victim of Crossroads, the victim of the Hills leadership, the victims of Savannah, and it's just not true. At some point, a person has to take ownership and responsibility that for their own choices and behavior. I think he keeps getting prodded along by some key figures, who, for whatever reason, are reticent to just tell him the truth. Maybe they are, and I just don't know it. But it just seems like he's been continued to be propped up. I don't know if it's so much of a timeline, Julie, as it is looking for mile markers along the way. Right. So looking for signs of humility, looking for signs of teachability, looking for signs of repentance, looking for signs of restitution. I wronged you, you know, I dented your car, I'm going to pay for it to make sure it gets fixed. When you see that, you know, kind of the key is anybody I have wronged, then I'll make it right. That's the type of response I think you're looking for when you're talking about character change, or even your personality change. Once you start to see that and you're like, okay, something's happening. What we're looking for is their demonstration is there not feigned or fake remorse, but genuine repentance. And that's what I would say, at least from my experience from my seat. I have not seen that in Patrick Garcia in the last five years. JULIE ROYS 47:02 I'm guessing you resonate with a lot of what Paul said. I think he's absolutely right for looking for the markers of repentance, whether or not that means you can re-platform that's another question. And there's really need to be two different questions that people need to understand; you can be restored to Christ, you can be restored to the body restored to a position, that's a totally different thing. And I think people need to just start saying you're permanently disqualified. I don't know why we just can't seem to say that in the church. And yet I think it needs to be said for abusers. Absolutely. MORIAH SMOTHERS 47:39 And, Julie, I just want to again, echo what Paul said in his clip. It's what Jack and I were saying, Actually, Jack wrote this to Leonardo Blair, who wrote the article that the level of pain and trauma that article caused from Patrick, Blair made himself as the victim clearly demonstrates no understanding of spiritual authority, power dynamics, abuse. Anyone that was mentioned in that article, he re traumatized, and Leonardo did too. So I'm going to be very blunt, I hold the Christian Post responsible for publishing that as well as Patrick Garcia. Because I think, yeah, I think I hold them all responsible. We have too much information to just publish whatever might get a few clicks at this point without considering all of the victims, not just Jack and I, but the churches, the families. JULIE ROYS 48:30 And I think reporters need to be educated, absolutely need to be educated and trauma informed and all of these things and if you're not fine, but it's no excuse at this point. Get it. MORIAH SMOTHERS 48:44 Yeah, we get it. If you're not and don't want to be, go report on the weather, don't report when they're in a space where there are victims. JULIE ROYS 48:50 Yeah, absolutely. And there is clearly, I would agree, complete dearth of understanding of what ACSA, adult clergy sexual abuse is, and it needs to be remedied. I agree. Again, Patrick has been re platformed by Adventure church. He's preached there several times. That's a church in Louisville, Kentucky. I reached out to Adventure for comment. The church did not respond. Bob Russell has also replatformed Patrick. Bob had Patrick share about his fall and restoration at Bob's mentoring retreat for pastors. This, that Patrick is up there now instructing pastors about his fall and restoration and they're learning from him how to be a pastor. How does that make you feel? JACK SMOTHERS 49:41 That is absolutely ridiculous. You can't have someone who is an abuser trying to instruct people on how not to abuse. I don't understand really the line of thought and why you would want to put him into that scenario given his background. I think honestly I would just say my concern is, why is there so much focus on helping these pastors who have abused other people, instead of focus on how do we help the abused? How do we help the victims of the people who we have, are partially responsible for their victimization? That's really where the focus should be is how do we care for the vulnerable? because that's exactly what Jesus did. That's who he ministered to. And that's who he loves. So that's, we just have a mis alignment, a missed focus on on what we really talk about in churches. JULIE ROYS 50:37 And I'm guessing Bob Russell has met with Patrick, and continues to mentor him and yet, you guys reached out through Dave Road up, who I understand is someone who has relationship, he's in Christian leadership has a relationship with Bob Russell. He wouldn't meet with you. He would not meet with you. MORIAH SMOTHERS 50:58 Yeah. Paul Linge was the connection. We met with him and several other Crossroads leaders and shared our story shared educational material. They held space for us and held our story with so much goodness. That was very restorative. I struggle with pastors in general, getting to meet with Paul Linge helped restore some of that faith in that role. So the connection between us and Bob Russell is very removed, we don't know him. But we told Paul, if Bob Russell's willing to hear our story, we're willing to share it. And so there was also David Roadcup was involved there. David Roadcup knows our story as well. He shared it with Bob Russell what he could and said, Are you willing to meet with this couple, because they have concerns that Patrick Garcia is preaching again. And his comment was that if there was not sexual intercourse, I will not meet with them. That was what we were told. And so I guess anything, pastors are allowed to do anything, and be preaching and be re-platformed, besides have sexual intercourse with someone who's not their wife, is the message there. JULIE ROYS 52:01 Well, and again, we didn't hear that directly from Bob's mouth. But I have reached out to Bob, to try to get comment to try to clarify to give him opportunity. And he has not responded. If he'd like to, I'm still here, and he can do it. And I'll report what he says. Or if he'd like to apologize, he can do that, too. But just would like to hear from him, it would be really nice. Last question. And thank you so much. I know this is so hard, and can be re traumatizing. And it's difficult. And I know that you only do this because you care about other victims, you care about the church, and its ability to care for others and so this doesn't happen and keep happening to people. And so that Patrick doesn't get platformed and is able to prey on vulnerable people again. But I know it comes at a cost. And so I'm extraordinarily grateful to both of you. I know, just knowing the audience that we have for this podcast, that there are people listening, who have been through what you've been through, they may be in totally different levels of healing right now of understanding. But I think it's amazing how well both of you are doing three years, that may seem like a long time, it also seems a really short time, and you're doing remarkably well. Not just as human beings individually, but together in your marriage. And that's, I think, a testament to who you are as human beings and to the godliness. As you know, when you were talking about Jack and the way he's carried you through this, great husbands are a gift. And that's really beautiful to hear that. But I'm just wondering what you might say to other survivors who are listening, some of whom may just be right now white knuckling it just to hold on? MORIAH SMOTHERS 53:55 Yeah, yeah, and the survivor community is really, that's my heart. Like you said, that's why we're here. There's a line in Wade Mullins book that I've tried to anchor myself to, and I'm not going to quote it perfectly. Something's Not Right is the book that says, as part of your healing journey, you need to think about what your abuser or his supporters would want you to do and do the opposite. And so this is me reclaiming using my voice for that. And so I really thought about what would I say to other survivors, because I know where they've been at. And so I would repeat what sweet Katie Roberts said to me the first time I spoke to her in person, and is that I'm so sorry for how you've been treated. You aren't alone. There's others of us that have been where you're at. It's an absolute nightmare. But there are other people out there that get it. We're here for you. There's a group of women that would love to hear your story, and we're going to understand it because we've lived it as well. We're here to support you in that and that's Restored Voices Collective. Julie, if you can put that little link in your bio that would be great. I would encourage other survivors work really hard to find a counselor that understands trauma. Don't settle for a counselor that just loves Jesus. With what you've been through, it's not enough. They need to know trauma and abuse. If they love Jesus, that's great too Take the time to learn and study the language of what happened to you. Some of the researchers and writers that have been instrumental for me are David Pooler has been one of them. Dr. Heather Evans is another one, Mary DeMuth's book, We Too, is a really wonderful book. And I would say, take care of yourself. I know, this healing process is long and hard. You need people that can cheer you on and just sit with you in the pain. And the last thing I would say is, my faith is intact. And I hope that people that have really had a close relationship with Jesus, that have been abused, I hope you're able to find your way back to Him. But take your time; he's patient, he's willing to sit with you through all of the pain. And so when you're ready to explore faith again, or figure out what that looks like, just look to Jesus, don't look to your church leaders don't look to a denomination. Just look to Jesus for that. JULIE ROYS 56:12 That is so good. Moriah thank you. And thank you for just sharing so openly, Jack, thank you the same, again, difficult topic, but appreciate the way that you guys have walked through this with integrity. And the way that you're really reaching out to others and taking courageous stands to speak out, which is never easy. So thank you, it's just really been a blessing to get to know you. JACK SMOTHERS 56:37 Thank you. MORIAH SMOTHERS 56:38 Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity. JULIE ROYS 56:40 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And if you've appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting the work that we do here at The Roys Report. As I've said before, we don't have any big donors or advertising we simply have you, the people who care about telling other survivors stories, exposing wrongdoing, bringing healing and restoring the church. Also this month when you give a gift of $30 or more, we'll send you a copy of Christy Boulware's book, Nervous Breakthrough. It's such a great resource and I'm so excited to make it available to you to donate and get a copy of Nervous Breakthrough, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.   Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript In 2020, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor, Patrick Garcia, was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her church. Yet now, Moriah realizes she was the victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. And since Garcia has returned to preaching—and was recently featured in an article as a repentant and reformed pastor—Moriah is speaking out. In this exclusive podcast interview, Moriah and her husband, Jack, speak publicly for the first time since Patrick Garcia resigned from The Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At the time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship, both physically and emotionally.” And he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. Garcia said recently that he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And, with the backing of mentoring pastor Bob Russell—pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in the U.S.—Garcia is starting to minister again. This comes as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia groomed and abused her, using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. And, in this podcast, Moriah and her husband, Jack, explain why they don't think Garcia should ever be allowed back into ministry. This podcast includes an interview with a pastor who served under Garcia at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served until 2018, when he was fired. The Crossroads pastor says Garcia wasn't fired for mere “philosophical differences,” as previously announced, but for profound character issues. Also offering perspective is Jim Burgen, lead pastor of Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. Like Pastor Russell, Jim is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. Is Garcia a restored pastor, whose gifts shouldn't be withheld from the church? Or, is he a predator, who continues to deceive and manipulate, and shouldn't be allowed in ministry again? Multiple voices engage with these questions and provide understanding on adult clergy sexual abuse. Guests Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. You can connect with them at jackandmoriahsmothers@gmail.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, JIM BURGEN, PAUL LINGE JULIE ROYS  0:00 For a year, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor Patrick Garcia was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her congregation. But Moriah says she now believes she was a victim of clergy sexual abuse. And now that Garcia is returning the ministry, she's speaking out in this exclusive podcast. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this episode is Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. Moriah has not spoken publicly since 2020 when Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At that time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship both physically and emotionally.” He added, no one is to blame for this repeated wicked behavior but me and he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Now almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. In a Christian Post article last month, Garcia says he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And now with the help of mentoring Pastor Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in the country, Garcia is starting to minister again. He's also speaking out claiming the relationship he had with the other woman was an emotional affair, but the church forced him to say it was physical. He also claims the church didn't know how to handle his struggle with anxiety and depression, contributing to what happened. All this has come as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia isn't telling the truth. She says Garcia groomed and abused her using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. She also says she's reached out to Russell and leaders at the Hills, trying to get them to acknowledge the abuse, but they've refused. On this podcast, you'll hear her story. You'll also hear from a pastor at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served from 2016 to 2018. That's when he was fired for alleged philosophical differences. And you'll hear from a pastor who like Bob Russell, is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. You won't hear from Patrick Garcia. We reached out to him to hear his side of the story. He responded via email saying and I quote, “enough has been said about that part of my story. I'm in the season of accepting the Lord's forgiveness and moving on.” We'll get to this important podcast in a moment. But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. 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Well, joining me now is Moriah Smothers, who is speaking publicly for the first time about what she claims was clergy sexual abuse by Patrick Garcia, former pastor of the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. Also joining her is her husband Jack Smothers, who has stood by Moriah throughout the turmoil and devastation of the past several years. So Jack, and Moriah, thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know is just a really painful and difficult situation. MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:11 Thank you for having us Julie. JACK SMOTHERS  04:12 Thank you, Julie. JULIE ROYS  04:14 So as I mentioned in the open, Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in 2020, confessing to what the media called an affair. In the past three years you haven't said anything publicly about what happened. And now you are speaking publicly for the first time. So what led you to want to speak out now about this situation? MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:37 Julie, Jack and I have never wanted to, felt the need or the call to be public about any of this. Our heart was basically to disappear and heal up, figure out what happened, why it happened. And we have taken a few opportunities these past three years to for some educational reasons with some local church leaders, but really, we were very happy healing up in private on our own with some supporters as well. The reason that we're talking to you now is because of the Christian Post article that was recently released. We had no prior knowledge of that article, completely caught off guard by it. But after we both read it, we were deeply troubled by the fact that there was no mention of adult clergy sexual abuse in that write up. And even then I still didn't feel the need to say anything different than Patrick Garcia's story. But what really pushed us to reach out and say something and be public for the first time is I was so devastated and insulted for the survivor community, for other women that are your friends, and in a support group with now. I just felt the article was deeply disrespectful and tone death of everything happening in the evangelical church, between Ravi Zacharias and Hillsong, and the SBC, the Christian Post can do better and should do better. And so I felt like, I didn't want this opportunity. Jack didn't want this opportunity. But here it is. And we're really here to tell our story for survivors, and hopefully, for church leaders to know better and do better. JULIE ROYS  06:12 And so Leo Blair, who wrote that article. I know, Leo, he's a colleague, someone that I've talked to on numerous occasions, and has been helpful to me in stories. And he's done some excellent work. But in this case, sounds like he did not attempt to reach out to you, correct? MORIAH SMOTHERS  06:29 No, there was no attempt at all. Nobody involved in that story reached out to us or notified us at all. We were very surprised by it. JULIE ROYS  06:36 Okay. And I think he did reach out to the Hills' elders who did not respond to him. I guess they could have put him in touch with you. But that didn't happen. And I'm not sure that that was asked for even but a very regrettable situation. And so I'm glad that you're going to be able to tell your side of the story. Let's back up to when both of you met Patrick Garcia. As I understand, both of you were volunteers at Crossroads Christian Church in Evansville, Indiana. And that's where Patrick pastored from roughly 2016 to 2018. Would you describe your relationship with Patrick at the time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  07:16 Yeah, sure. Basically, Julie, there was no relationship. We started attending that church when Ken Idleman was pastoring it. We had a lot of respect for his preaching and teaching. And it would be classified technically, as a mega church; it was very large. We were serving and attending but the pastoral transition did happen while we were there, but there was no relationship of any sort. Our children are about the same age. So we might have walked past each other in a hallway but no kind of communication, no, no relationship of any sort, except he was the pastor. And that was it. JULIE ROYS  07:49 Okay, and I'm guessing you had impressions of him, though. He was your pastor. Jack, was there ever did you have any conversations with him at this point, or he was just the man up on stage/ JACK SMOTHERS  08:02 We had passing conversations. And I do remember, one time at Crossroads when Patrick was still a pastor there. I did say to Moriah, I have a bad feeling about him. I didn't have any evidence of anything, I just got a bad impression and asked her to keep her distance from it. That was the extent of our interactions. JULIE ROYS  08:23 So then, in 2020, Crossroads fired Patrick Garcia, and another Pastor Rick Kyle, over in this is what the statement said, at least initially was philosophical differences. That was the reason given. I've also spoken with Paul Linge who was and still is a pastor at Crossroads. And we'll get his take in a minute about what really was happening behind the scenes. But from your vantage point at the time, what did you think had happened and why Patrick Garcia was being fired by the church? 08:25 At that point in time, we were just congregation members very far removed from that inner circle with any sort of connection to Patrick or the elders. And I think that's an interesting question. It's something that churches should really consider deeply because for your average congregant, especially in a megachurch, that pastor, that teaching individual is going to be the person who your congregants feel more connected to. And we had a personal relationship, a friendship with another pastor by the name of Dave Bowersox, he was a friend. We love him and his family and he chose to resign from the church as a result of all that. And that, at the time, spoke volumes to us and we trusted him we trusted his friendship and I chose to side with them in moving to the Hills, which at that point in time, Patrick was not a part of, it had nothing to do with Patrick moving to the Hills. He didn't come on to staff  at the Hills until later on. But at that point in time, it was really because of our friendship with Dave. JULIE ROYS  10:04 Was there a narrative though? That was because I know that this cause major turmoil. In fact, it spawned, I know, an article in Christian Post back then, because I went back and read a lot of these articles. I wasn't aware of it at the time. I wasn't covering this sort of news, or I think my nose was probably in other stories at the time. But it sounds like it caused a lot of turmoil at Crossroads, several pastors resigned when Patrick was fired, there was a petition circulating. This was a major deal. And I'm guessing there had to have been trying to figure out which side is telling the truth, am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  10:40 Yeah, there was definitely it was highly contentious. The narrative I remember hearing, believing, understanding was that the elders wanted to lead in a more traditional way. And that the pastors that were being fired and or resigned and left wanted to be more progressive. And so there was truly what we believe the statement about philosophical differences in leadership. And again, at the time, we also believe that maybe Crossroads was wanting to be a bit more of a country club feel, then really reaching out to the needy, the vulnerable. So that was the narrative that was being put out there for people that were asking questions. That's what i remember. JACK SMOTHERS  11:22 You don't realize how gullible you are until after the fact until hindsight is available. But there was evidence that we could have looked into and chose not to, because of those connections and those relationships that we had those trusted relationships. And so those just exerted a profound influence over us. And then we regret that. JULIE ROYS  11:43 As I mentioned, I talked to Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, but he served as executive pastor under Patrick Garcia. And this is what he told me about why Patrick was fired. PAUL LINGE  11:58 There were some fundamental character fissures in the makeup of his heart, his mind, his belief system, and those would leak out on a fairly regular basis. And while I never saw him act, to my knowledge, inappropriately toward a female, okay, that's too much that's inappropriate, that's wrong. But he would laugh at it just crude things. And unless they like for nudity, not that I saw but like pictures of like a shadow of It's a little embarrassing to talk about, shadows of a man's penis, and, and this was like early on, and he would laugh about it. And I was like, yikes, okay, something is a little off here. And I would confront him on it. And sometimes he would receive it. But it was dismissive as well. Basically, he was unteachable, he was young, he was still in his late 20s. I saw the way that he would posture himself in elder meetings, he was unteachable, he would not listen to men who are leaders in their areas of business and industry and are men of God. He had his own his official group of Crossroads elders that he was technically under the authority of, but he had his own private board outside of that. It was composed of guys who would tell him what he wanted to hear. And some of these are the Bob Russell's, and others, some of whom have had what appears to be great success in ministry. But they didn't have the nuts and bolts of the character of Patrick Garcia. And so I think it could be said that he came with what looked like a good pedigree; graduate of Cincinnati Christian University, the son in law of Dave Stone, who at that time was the lead pastor at Southeast Christian Church. And so it looked like good pedigree, but I don't know that the proper due diligence was done in tossing him the keys, so to speak, of Crossroads Christian Church. It felt like the keys were tossed to a reckless teenager rather than a mature man of God, who had in mind things of God. JULIE ROYS  14:02 That's Crossroads Pastor Paul Linge, expressing a perspective that it sounds like neither, you know, you, Jack or Moriah had at the time. I'm just curious, as you listen to that, what kind of thoughts do you have and feelings about what you just heard? JACK SMOTHERS  14:20 Gosh, it's hard to go back in time and put yourself in that place. Of all the information that we were ignorant of. What we know now is Paul Linge is a man of God like that guy that is truly the real deal. He is a committed Christian and I don't have insider information because I was not a member of the elder board. But I am not surprised by anything. Any comment that he made in that clip. MORIAH SMOTHERS  14:46 There was a lot too. Jack and I kind of were looking at each other like we've heard this before. There was a lot of weight put on Patrick's pedigree, and the people that he had surrounding him in ministry support. And again we didn't know, but we thought that must mean something because it was consistently put out there. A phrase we heard a lot was ‘he comes from good stock'. I bet we've heard that hundreds of times. And knowing now that he was going a lot on reputation, and I think we've heard a lot for different organizations. But it seems like we're looking at charisma more than character is something I've heard in other churches. And yeah, nothing Paul said was surprising to us knowing what we know now. But, Julie, you're correct. We did not have any of that information, when this split was happening. And we were trying to make a decision; we didn't know. JACK SMOTHERS  15:38 And I think that's important for churches to keep in mind when they are, I think Crossroads did as good as they possibly could have with handling that situation. But as a congregant, I think we probably needed more information to truly assess their rationale, their justification for letting Patrick go, because we essentially put ourselves into a dangerous situation. JULIE ROYS  16:04 Well, it does sound like some of the elders did try to speak up and they were pretty strongly censored by people for doing that. So I know it can be a very difficult situation. And I've often said when I'm reporting, it's like saying something bad about somebody's grandmother. Like, it may be true, but people just don't want to hear it. They want to believe what they want to believe. And it can be a very difficult situation. But as you guys mentioned, Paul Linge mentioned one of the difficulties that Crossroads had was dealing with these outside advisors. And like you said, this stock that he came from, he had this close relationship with Bob Russell, retired pastor of Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, one of the biggest churches in the country, very influential church. At the time, Patrick was also married to the daughter of Dave Stone, who was the pastor of Southeast Christian Church at the time, and Patrick, and Dave Stone's daughter has since divorced, but at the time again, he was Dave Stone's son-in-law. I reached out to Bob Russell for comments about the role that he's been playing in Patrick's life, as well as the role that he was playing at the time. He did not respond to me. However, one of Patrick's other advisors is Jim Burgen, and he's the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado. And Jim was kind enough to grant me an interview. And here's what Jim said, regarding his understanding, at the time of why Crossroads fired Patrick. JIM BURGEN  17:31 My understanding is that he was trying to be very transparent, trying to be very real and authentic, admitting that he wasn't perfect and admitting he dealt with depression, things like that. And I do remember him telling me that the I don't want to be a gossip because I wasn't there, alright? So I know that Patrick was telling me that they didn't really want that image of their pastor. They wanted their pastor to be somebody who, because he had faith, and because he had the word of God, these things weren't really problems in their life anymore. They want him to stand on a pedestal and be an example, that you can overcome anything, which is a lot of pressure, but it also is, it's just not integrity. And so I read the same stuff you've read, but I've heard from Patrick, they didn't want that. They didn't want that. And then they parted ways over the I don't believe they parted ways over one thing, though, like, is just the overall, you have a different philosophy of ministry than we do. JULIE ROYS  18:28 So like then, or since you haven't really talked to any of the leaders at Crossroads? JIM BURGEN  18:34 No, not once. Or Hills. I've not talked to any of those leadership. JULIE ROYS  18:39 Again, that's pastor Jim Bergen who served as an advisor, I think he still is a mentor to Patrick. I like Jim, he was very gracious to grant me an interview. And we talked a long time. But I have to say when I heard him say that he hasn't talked to the leadership of Crossroads or the Hills, not once, that was concerning to me. Especially I know, he had Patrick come speak at his church in 2019. So this was after Patrick was fired from Crossroads. And it just doesn't seem from my vantage point, that there was respect for the local elders; enough respect to say, hey, what happened? But it seemed more like Patrick was, he's our prodigy. He's our guy. And so if he says this, I'm going with it. And if there's one thing in this story that even we've seen so far, nobody reached out to you to get your side of the story. Nobody reached out to these elders between these advisors to get their side of the story. I'm guessing you're feeling some similar things there. But do you have anything to add that you thought when you heard this from Jim? JACK SMOTHERS  19:50 I don't know if Jim is willfully and intentionally ignorant, or if Jim is confused, perhaps, or maybe I'm wrong, right? But in my opinion, that's the only thing that I can say. His statement about Patrick trying to be very transparent and real and authentic. What Patrick was actually doing is trying to manipulate other people into getting what he wanted. So my reaction to pastor Bergen is, I guess I should have gracious assumptions and say he did not apparently know the real Patrick Garcia. MORIAH SMOTHERS  20:28 My concern with his statement too Julie is, I think, a lot of times when these situations occur, the person where the blame should fall is excellent at isolating individuals so they can control the narrative. And I think that when that happens, it's really easy to spin the story that is in your favor. And so I think it was a real leadership failure to not have broken out of that vacuum, and have talked to other stakeholders like the Hills and Crossroads and other people involved in that. JACK SMOTHERS  21:03 Do you feel that the language he was using, the language that Patrick would use about being so real and authentic was really a way to justify his sin and normalize his behavior? MORIAH SMOTHERS  21:17 Yeah, I think the closest thing I've ever read that accounts for that is that Chuck DeGroat. He wrote When Narcissism Comes to Church. I came across the term I think he's the one who coined it, it could have been someone else, but called fauxnerability. That term exactly represented the culture of the Hills, and the culture that I believe Patrick wanted to create; that I'm going to be very open, vulnerable, transparent, but it's more transactional. And then I'm not really going to live that privately, which was a lot of the interaction he and I had together was horrible. JULIE ROYS  21:52 So within months of Patrick leaving Crossroads, he joined this new church that two former pastors at Crossroads started Dave Bowersox and Darrell Marin. Both of you decided to become part of this new church. What motivated you to do that? JACK SMOTHERS  22:11 Really was our relationship with Dave, we barely knew Darrell. But we were in a small group of Dave and his wife, Sandy, and really trusted them and loved their family a lot. And we also had kids about their kids age and Dave and I had a meeting at the university where Moriah and I are employed. And he mentioned, they were creating an elder board and said, I would be a great fit for that. That never really came to fruition while we were there. They created an advisory team and invited Moriah to be on that. I wasn't invited. We were involved with a discipleship ministry while we were at the Hills. But anyway, our relationship with Dave is what drew us there. JULIE ROYS  22:54 The not having an elder board, and having an advisory board with I'm guessing really had no teeth or accountability. Am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  23:02 That's exactly right. And so this advisory board they created had men and women that were all in with the church. Which I thought at the time, like what a wonderful demonstration like representation of the church. It was made very clear to the board multiple times that there was no accountability that pastors had to us. And we were never to be a decision making body. At the time I was there, it was very much, so we're gonna read you our stats, tell you the good things we're doing and you brag on us. And so it was a Yes-man and woman situation, let's cheer and say, rah. But no, there was no authority with that position. JULIE ROYS  23:41 And I will just say right now, and I do get asked this all the time. But people say like, how can you evaluate a church? And it's step one, look at the elder board. Are they truly independent or are they beholden to the pastor in some way? Are they staff members of the church? In other words, is the pastor their boss, so of course they're not going to buck him? Are they family members? This is another one that nepotism that runs in these. All of these things need to be looked at but what can they really do look at the bylaws. Do you have bylaws? If you do have bylaws, how is a pastor senior pastor going to be removed? Is that spelled out in your bylaws? Finances – do you know how much your senior pastor makes? And I don't care if you're at a small church or a large church, whatever. To me the fact that religious nonprofits and churches don't have to reveal what their top wage earners make, but secular nonprofits do, to me is appalling. Why should the church be less accountable to the people that give it money than the world right? than the secular nonprofits? It's these kinds of red flags that before I got into doing what I do today, I wouldn't have thought of either so I don't fault people for it. But I think we're in a season or a time in the church right now that's really somewhat of a crisis, with scandal after scandal coming out. And if people, if the church individuals, congregants, if we don't wise up, we're never going to see a change, because it's not going to come from the top, it's going to come from the bottom up. So, Moriah, it's my understanding that about a year later, so it was about October 2018, that you began on the advisory board at the Hills church. But then Patrick started communicating with you on an individual basis. And this is what you would say, is the early stages of what you believe is grooming you. Would you describe why you believe that this was a grooming situation and the beginning of abuse? MORIAH SMOTHERS  25:48 Before I get into that, Julia, and I will, is that one of the things that was revealing in the Christian Post article is that Patrick actually told on himself and said that he'd had a crush on me for three years. We had no interaction, we didn't know each other and knowing what I know now, I absolutely believe that I was targeted well in advance. I think he had been taking notes on me the times we had interacted. Jack and I lead a Bible study group with the pastors for a new curriculum, there were some things from that were a little unusual, but I just didn't think much of. So that communication initially, I would have considered very innocuous. It was really about the ministry Jack and I were helping run and so a lot of those emails early on, like I would have to discuss with Jack and things like that. But eventually, they turned into more texting, still some emails, but more texting. And I didn't loop Jack in on those, which was a huge error on my part. But it really a lot of it was just like joking and silly things that if someone had picked up my phone and read, they would have thought, that's odd, her husband sat on a bit, it wouldn't have been anything. So it wouldn't have been an obvious red flag. And so I let a lot of that go, even though I'm sure I had a gut check at the time, but it's my pastor, like, I've always had healthy, safe relationships with my pastor. So I didn't think anything about it. it fairly quickly turned into joking though. His demeanor is very polling. He described it like a very silly kind of teenager, he just joking. The first thing that really caught my attention, though, was like, that doesn't seem quite normal is he sent a gift to my work. And so he put a different name on it a pseudonym. And it was an inside joke about a logo from Flat Irons. I made the joke our son was into Pokémon, and I asked him, I said, Well, Patrick, you're wearing a Pokémon shirt. Matt, our son would love bat, like I didn't know you were a fan. And so he sent this to my office. And then that was the first time it caught my attention, texting, communication. And honestly, a lot of times it was about church. And so it was intermixed between what was happening at church and fake life, and then personal and personal questions and things like that. I didn't have any of this language then. But all of this was really heavily infused with love bombing, which I know now I didn't know at the time that just this excessive praise, this endearment that, honestly, it really ingratiates someone with you, you feel so valued and seen. But the intention there is for manipulative purposes. And so I really believed a lot of that. The more we communicated, the more he sought out my opinion on church issues. And I did I just felt flattered that he thought my perspective was valuable in that context, because I've never, that's never happened before within that kind of inner circle church group. Also, the thing that very quickly happened is he started depending on me for things. He would just often say, like how overwhelming his work is, and he's so far behind, and he's shepherding and writing sermons and doing all these things, and I'm a former Special Ed teacher, like teachers are helpers by nature. It's what we do. It's what we're good at. And so I thought, like, oh, my gosh, I have the skill set, I can help you out. Do you need me to proofread something? Pretty quickly, he said, You just take over doing all my emails for work. And I thought, well, I can respond to some of them, I guess, because it's what my pastor needed. And so that's really where it started. It clearly escalated into much worse, but I would say those are some of the initial grooming stages is the joking silly conversations, personal questions, and then it started creating that need of I need you to help me be successful in ministry. The other piece that I would feel maybe goes between if we're looking at severity or intensity of grooming, this one kind of straddles the line is he very quickly started sharing personal information with me about himself and about his colleagues and about the church. He told me some things about Crossroads. I mean, just things that I had no business knowing as a congregant, confidential information that he never should have shared with me about himself and others. And so at the time, I was giving advice and input, but I felt flattered that he wanted to share that with me as well. JULIE ROYS  30:14 And I'm sure as you know, now, your story is not an isolated incident. This is a pattern that plays out over and over again. And at least from sitting in my seat, the one characteristic that I see that makes people vulnerable is it's the ones that are really sincere, and helper type people. And it's so awful because it's actually such a virtuous thing that the victim possesses as a character quality that predators seem to be able to just sniff out and just be able to exploit. And I know that's how you feel, and what you feel Patrick did to you. When did you first realize, Oh, my goodness, this is a dangerous relationship? MORIAH SMOTHERS  30:59 Yeah, it was fairly early on, really. I don't know that I would have said dangerous, but I recognize that I was looking forward to him communicating with me. And so it was even small, but I thought, Man, that's not healthy. And I think a common belief is that anyone who is targeted , they're struggling in their marriage. Jack and I have a wonderful marriage. We did before I was groomed we were doing well during and praise the Lord, we have a wonderful marriage now. And so I'd like to debunk that, that it's only broken people or broken marriages that are targeted, because that's not true. But it was pretty early on, I realized I'm looking forward to him texting, and that was messed up. And this is the other spot that man, if I could do anything and go back, this is the spot I would go back and redo this is I thought I could handle it. Because I really again believed that my pastor would honor his fiduciary duty of putting me and my family's best interest above his own. And so I said, Hey, I need to talk to you about something, let's FaceTime. And so we hopped on a FaceTime. And I tell him, I said, This is so humiliating, I'm humiliated, and I know you're going to be embarrassed. But I'm looking forward to you contacting me, I think I'm attracted to you. And so we need to cut communication. And he reported this in the Christian Post very differently than what had happened. I think he said, I hooked him. But what really happened is that I asked him, I said, this is again, I didn't understand, I thought it was my fault. I said, we need to stop all communication totally like this has to be done and over. And he said your family is too important to our church, to the ministry. I love your family, we need to be in contact still. So do you trust me to pray about it? Absolutely. I'll trust my pastor at that time to pray about it for me. And I said, Sure, I understand that. I didn't want to lose our community. And that I trusted him to pray about it. And Julie the part I would go back and do is that was my moment in time to tell Jack, but I did not tell Jack about what was going on. Because Jack is a man of character and integrity, we would have been out of that church so fast. I didn't want to lose our people in our community group. And what I didn't realize is Patrick came back and I basically just opened the doors for full on grooming and abuse. And he said, Moriah, you know, I never do this. I never say this when I preach from the stage. But God has told me that if we stay above reproach, then he wants us to be together. And it was a strong implication of like, for ministry purposes. And I was floored by that. But Jack and I are happily married and we're doing great. I had no desire to be out of my marriage ever. And so I was really confused by that. But he was very convincing that this was a word from the Lord. So things accelerated from there in a really tragic way. JULIE ROYS  34:03 And this is spiritual abuse 101. It doesn't get much more blatant than God told me. And this should be a red flag for anyone. But again, we're not trained in how to identify these red flags. But when somebody says God told me, I mean, how do you argue with that, right? I mean, it's just really manipulative language that somebody would use. MORIAH SMOTHERS  34:28 He's my pastor, I trusted pastors, healthy relationships. My dad was a pastor, like, I had no reason to think there would be any kind of predatory behavior. Like none at the time. I clearly know better now, but. JULIE ROYS  34:43 So about this time is when the relationship progressed to you and Patrick meeting in public parking lots, which is kind of a next step. Would you describe the frequency of these meetings and the nature of them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  35:02 So I remember the first one he asked to me. So we could figure out this is a common phrase of how to manage the tension of being in communication, but it not being romantic. That was the first time we met. I vividly remember how sweaty my hands were. I knew I shouldn't be in this situation. But I also, truthfully, I still trusted him that, okay, if I meet with him, then we can figure out a way for this to be over. That didn't happen. And so we did on and off continue to meet. I would say it was, I honestly don't remember a number. I would say maybe once every couple weeks or so. It was almost always surrounding the situation of I tried to end it, he would say, let me figure this out, figure out a plan so you don't have to leave the church. And then let's meet as our last time. And so when we would meet honestly, like, we talk about church, we would talk about our personal lives. It was a lot about how he was struggling just being a pastor managing everything difficult relationships. I felt like I was his counselor most of the time, it was a lot of that. Sadly, it did progress. The abuse never became fully sexual, but there was hand holding and hugging things of that nature that happened. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  36:23 And he said, in the Christian Post article that at one point, you tried to kiss him, but he put the brakes on. True? Not true? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:32 I don't remember that happening. There was embracing that happened. So I could see him thinking that's where it was going. JULIE ROYS  36:40 So you wrote in your timeline that you sent me that during this period, you felt like, quote, an addict living two lives. Would you explain that? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:49 So the timeline I sent you I wrote in 2020, when things were very fresh. I had no language surrounding abuse, trauma, ACSA. And so that feeling was still is still correct of how I felt. What I know now, though, is what that is was trauma- bonding. That happens in a cycle of abuse of feeling like very affirmed, valued the love bombing, and then trying to end it. And it's like this very toxic cycle. And so that's what it was, is I, frankly, I hated who I was becoming. I love being a wife and a mom, and I love my job. So there were so many beautiful parts of my life. I loved the church I was serving, we were super engaged. So I felt like there were all these beautiful parts of my life. And then there was this really toxic, ugly thing that I didn't know how to get out of. Even as a grown woman educated, I didn't know how to get out of this. And so that's where I just felt so painfully torn. Because at this point, I knew things were bad. Like I knew they were very bad, because we were communicating every single day, multiple times a day, even when I would end the relationship, he would still use phrases from the stage to communicate with me that were like inside praises. He'd post on social media photos, but he put little photos like emojis in the corner that were messages to me, and the communication was all the time. So I now know it was trauma bonding, but the truth is, at the time, I saw no way out without imploding our life. And so I stayed in it, because I didn't know how not to. JULIE ROYS  38:30 And it's interesting. And I hear this all the time, the minimizing of the devastation that a relationship that didn't go there was no sexual intercourse, but had obviously a sexual component to it had this kind of grooming involved in this kind of trauma-bonding, love-bonding, I mean, all of these things, the devastation is massive, isn't it? MORIAH SMOTHERS  39:00 Yeah. And I think what's really hard to account for and if I'm just being really honest, I don't expect for anyone who hasn't experienced this or walked with someone to understand this. But physically, what happened was minimal compared to the emotional and the spiritual wreckage of feeling like your pastor should be doing the right thing, and he's not. I would say I ended this relationship. I use that term very loosely, it was abuse, but I ended it two or three times every single month. It was ongoing. That was most of our conversations with me trying to figure out how to get out of this. And there was a lot of communication in between as well but yeah, I think what's not accounted for when these situations come out, is just the emotional spiritual psychological damage that's left in its wake and it's horrific. JULIE ROYS  39:57 And Jack during this whole time, are you seeing red flags or things that are making you go, what's going on? Or was this pretty much hidden from your sight? JACK SMOTHERS  40:06 I had no evidence if that's what you mean. But what I did see was Moriah's natural demeanor is very light hearted, very life giving just a joy to be around. And that was stolen. She became darker she became her humor became vulgar, her language in terms of profanity that started to occur. And so I remember asking her one time, like, hey, something is changing about you, and I don't know what it is. Is it something that's wrong with our relationship? Or what can I do to get us back on track? But something is off, and I don't know what it is. And she couldn't answer because she was in a cycle of abuse at the time. MORIAH SMOTHERS  40:51 And Julie, so horribly as well that I would sometimes bring this home to Jack. Like I was so torn up about what was happening privately that I would put that on our marriage and say, but if you treated me like this, when it had nothing to do with Jack. Towards the end, I even started saying, let's move, let's apply for jobs, let's go somewhere else, because I thought that's my only way out of this. And so was pushing so hard to escape, but I made life pretty hard for Jack for a while, because I was not me anymore. JULIE ROYS  41:24 Moriah, eventually, your relationship with Patrick included sexting. In fact, that was the title of the Christian Post article, basically, How Sexting Brought This Pastor Down. Would you describe the nature, the frequency, who initiated the sexting? How did that happen? MORIAH SMOTHERS  41:46 But that also had a grooming process to it. I've never been a selfie person, I think I'm just old enough that I missed that kind of way. Patrick would send dozens of photos a day. And so I think there was a grooming process with getting me to that place. But the sexting did occur, it is incredibly painful to talk about still. I don't remember the frequency, it wasn't truthfully, many times what I would consider overt sexting. But the ongoing dialogue for us was highly flirtatious and inappropriate. What I would say was over happened, I don't know probably less than 10 times, and it was always followed by like, guilt, shame, that can't happen again. And then we were back there. JULIE ROYS  42:33 All of this did remain secret until May of 2020. And that's when this police report came to the attention of pastors at the Hills church. How was there a police report that made this apparent to them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  42:47 I honestly I still don't have all the information. Because when everything did eventually come out, we were very much so left in the dark. So I don't fully understand all the details to this. But my knowledge, what I do know is that there was a time we were meeting in a public parking lot. We'd met there several times, the people working in that location had noticed it. And so after so many times of meeting there they called the police to check because they thought it was odd that two cars were parked there. I think we were there after hours even. And so a policeman came out just said, Hey, what's going on? Nothing was going on. And so, it wasn't any kind of like, charges or anything. It was just documentation that we had been there. And so I don't know the process of how that actually got to the Hills, but it did. Once that happened, I didn't know anything about that. I think we were on vacation as a family. And what I've been told not being involved in that is that Dave and Daryl, the other pastors, met with Patrick, confronted him with what was in the police report, which wasn't much information, just that we'd met there several times, and it was documented. Patrick spun a story that there was nothing going on, that he and I had only met there once. And Jack and I haven't seen this report. So we're not really sure what's in it. That he said we had only met there once, and that we were handing off a binder or a book or something. And so he had been there before, but I hadn't. And so very shortly after that, Patrick was also instructed not to contact me because they wanted to verify his story. Patrick got in contact with me immediately said this is exactly what happened. I remember he said, I took a bullet for us. And so you're gonna get called into a meeting with Dave and an elder, and this is what you need to say to backup my story. And so I knew what was going on. We got home from our vacation. Dave called and asked me to a meeting, and I asked if Jack could go with me, and he said no, he cannot. And so I think again, I was still I was not in a good place mentally and emotionally. I think I was hoping that if Jack was there, it would come out and maybe I could be free from this, but Jack wasn't allowed there. And so I remember sitting in the parking lot of where I was going to meet the pastor and the elder. And Patrick called me and he said, these are the exact lies I told. If you want to save your family, my family, the church, and also they were fundraising for a new building at the time. And that money he indicated to me was associated with him, because he had raised those funds. He said, If you want to save all these things,  then you need to backup my story. And I consented, or I agreed to backup his story. And so I think in the Christian Post article, it read very much so like I eagerly and enthusiastically agreed to lie. But I felt very much if I'm gonna lose my family and my church, then I'll lie. And so I did lie. I sat down with the pastor and the elder. They very much so wanted to hear the version of the situation, I told them, so I didn't have to lie much, because they wanted to believe it. And so I did lie in that situation. JULIE ROYS  46:03 And did you volunteer to step down from the advisory board at this time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:08 I did. Yeah, that was the primary way Patrick had access to me just individually without Jack around. Otherwise, Jack and I did ministry together, we were pretty much always together. So I said, I'm happy to step down from that. I guess that's appropriate. And they didn't want to raise any red flags about why I was stepping down. So they told me no, please don't do that. JULIE ROYS  46:28 Wow. And you secretly were trying to get out. MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:33 I was trying to get out in a lot of ways. But except being fully truthful with Jack, which would have got me out. JULIE ROYS  46:42 So Jack, what was your response when you heard the rendition of the story that Moriah told you? JACK SMOTHERS  46:50 The story that I received was, she made a silly mistake and met Patrick in a parking lot to receive a binder about church. Sounds pretty innocent when you are in a loving relationship with someone who has, over a long period of time, established a firm foundation of trust, you're raised in a family where people treat you in a trustworthy way. It builds a lot of gullibility in a way and so I didn't really second guess it. I just said, Oh, man, that was silly. Let's just learn from it and move on. And in retrospect, that was maybe not the most loving thing to do. The most loving thing to do would have been to ask more questions, if I felt uneasy about it. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  47:33 Yeah. It's tough, though. You don't want to be the jealous husband, who doesn't believe. It's a very difficult situation to be in. At this point, Moriah, you asked Patrick to basically get some outside help, right? Like, I mean, you knew he had this outside Advisory Council board, whatever you want to call it, mentors that he looked up to. How did he respond when you asked him to get this help? MORIAH SMOTHERS  48:02 Yeah. So all the previous times I'd ended it, it was really just between the two of us and I just want it to be done. But this time, I said, clearly, I felt like this was, again, I was spiritually very twisted. But I feel like this is God telling us like this has to be done. This was our chance to end it. And he didn't feel like he could end it, that he needed me. And so I asked him to just, I begged him, I'd said, like, please just talk to somebody tell somebody what is going on. Because this entire time, I had some real questions like even like I said, this an affair, isn't it? Nice to no, because it's not physical like that it's not. And I asked him, I said, please just talk to somebody get their input. And so he told me, he did talk to a couple people. One of them was a former colleague and friend that was in his previous church in Texas. And then also he communicated that he talked to Jim Burgen about it. I didn't know either of these people at all. But he told me that he was advised by both of them to not share any of this information with people at the Hills, the other pastors, they just didn't need to know the details, and it would cause a difficult situation. And so I thought he had been advised by wise counselors, which is what I asked him to do. JULIE ROYS  49:19 And of course, you have no way of knowing whether that actually happened or not. But I did reach out to Jim Burgen, and asked him specifically about this, about whether or not he ever encouraged Patrick not to confess the details of his relationship with you to the church. And this is what Jim Burger said. JIM BURGEN  49:37 I knew they were having struggles. I didn't know he was meeting in cars with women. Not at all. And if I had known that, I would have absolutely done the opposite of what you're hearing; cover it up, don't disclose. It would have been the opposite of that is you've got to cut this relationship. You need to go to Savannah, you need to go to your leaders. I was fresh off the heels of sabbatical. I was on a sabbatical for six months at the end of 2019, dealing just with a lot of exhaustion. So at that point, I would have been really raw and open because I was in such a tremendous, intimate relationship with my elders. They knew the inside out of my heart. I would have pointed in that direction too. Whether he had that or not, I don't know. But that's what my advice would have been. I never, never ever in a million years would say, cover this up, keep it a secret, don't give details because basically what I've been counseling this keep going just don't get caught, which would be absolutely the opposite of what I would ever have counseled anybody. JULIE ROYS  50:36 Again, Jim Burgen weighing in on his perspective of what happened. It didn't take a long time after this whole police report surfaced for the truth to come out. So apparently, the church sends Patrick off on, I'm sorry, this study break. I've seen so many study breaks. For pastors, they get caught with things like this, you wish they would just be upfront with what's going on. But instead, it's covered up from the church. And I guess he needs to do more study about something. But during that study break what was happening between the two of you? MORIAH SMOTHERS  51:15 Yeah, so during the study break, keep in mind, I was still on the advisory board, because they hadn't taken me off. This was also not disclosed to the advisory board at all about what was really going on, their concerns. We were still in communication. I think there were attempts to slow the communication down, that it was frequent. There was also up until this point, things had been bad. But again, most of our communication was just like silly, everyday things, light hearted. Things got dark after this and really heavy in a way that it hadn't been. There was a lot of like power reversals. And I remember Patrick being very clear that like, I have control of this situation. And he would want me to like verbalize consent at that. There was a situation where some pastor I have no clue who it was, it was just in the news that he had probably an affair, which is the language they use, which would have been abuse. And I said something to Patrick about it. And I said, “Hey, I read this story. Did you read that?” He had. And I said, “Doesn't that sound like what's happening here?” And he like, forced me to verbally agree that's not what's happening here. This is consensual, and so it just got really heavy. He also started pushing to blame. He was like, let's reassess when we're gonna be together. And I mean, I remember the clearest time again, only in hindsight of being gaslit was, I was just feeling very convicted. And I said something like Patrick, I'm not leaving Jack, I have no desire to end my marriage. I'm not doing that. And he somehow flipped it around, and I ended up apologizing to him, that I would even think he might ask me to do that. And so just really, really sick, twisted. But the communication was still often. JULIE ROYS  54:07 And how old was he at this point? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:09 So if this was in 2020, he was probably 32 ish? JULIE ROYS  54:13 Thiry-two. It's a lot of responsibility for someone extremely young, really. And he's in his late 20s and pastoring a church of 7000 previous to this. It's just a little bit stunning that someone so young would be given that kind of responsibility. In September 2020, then I'm guessing he comes back from his summer break. And you met in person a few times. Would you describe what happened in those meetings? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:45 Yeah, so all of those were to wrap things up to end things like again, there was this kind of mounting pressure. It just has to be that and frankly, I was starting to be a mess. Like I had been able to keep my life together pretty much. He would actually say, I know this is hard for you. But just let me shoulder the pressure of keeping this together. I was not doing well at that point in time. And so we met in a parking lot. And again, naively thought, like this is the last time, but that was, every time I was nervous and felt like oh my gosh, would have foreseen and it was, it was scary. That was the first time that he scared me, at the way he was behaving, and I actually had the thought, like, I hope I'm able to get out of this car. And it was just, it felt like things were moving really fast. And so again, I was hopeful that maybe that was the last time. But communication just continued, even though there's so many last times that communication continued still. JULIE ROYS  55:46 So the following month, October 2020, Patrick's wife, Savannah, she discovered some of the messages between the two of you the sexting, I'm guessing she saw? MORIAH SMOTHERS  55:57 Yeah. I don't know exactly what was seen. You read those? Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of it was just silliness. But then there were things that absolutely indicated that there was sexting and it was highly inappropriate. JULIE ROYS  56:10 You found out about this from Patrick, right, when Savannah found out what was his demeanor and reaction? MORIAH SMOTHERS  56:19 Well, I knew something was a little wrong. We had been communicating. And Julie, I don't think I mentioned this, but early on through the grooming, it was mainly text, emails, and then it switched through social media platforms. And so he was always very thorough, reminding me like, hey, delete our messages, delete our conversations. And we were communicating with an app Words with Friends. We were playing a game on there, and there's a chat feature. And so we'd been communicating, I gotten distracted with something, and had just left our conversation because something happened quickly. And when I came back, I messaged him again, and there was never a response. And so I knew something seemed different because he always responded. But he didn't that time. And so it was all through the evening. I never got a response. I knew something was going on. I think that was I shared maybe a little bit with you at that time. I've minimized I heavily minimized what was going on to Jack. But I did disclose a little bit to him. And it was sometime in the middle of the night, I got an email from a random email address. But the email address and how it was worded was like a lot of inside jokes between us. And the phrasing was really strange. It didn't the email it was from Patrick. We know now he had all this like technology taken. So I don't know how he did this. But he basically said that Savannah found messages. And then he included a bulleted list to say like, these are the lies we've told remember them and back them up about what it was. But the email sounded like silly, like almost joking. It was not like, devastated. It wasn't angry. It was a very strange message. When I knew that this had been discovered, I freaked out. And so I deleted the email, I never responded and I like permanently deleted it from my Gmail. And the next day, he sent another one from the same email and it was just, sorry, with a crying emoji and I deleted that one as well. I did end up telling Jack eventually that he had sent that. So I did know something was coming. But I didn't know the fallout that was about to happen. JULIE ROYS  58:30 Jack, how did you find out? JACK SMOTHERS  58:32 Moriah disclosed a little bit of what was going on. But really it was Dave Bowersox who called and shared the communication, the sexting conversations that had occurred, and in a PDF document. And so I read through those, and yeah, that's how I found out. Of course I was devastated at the time. But my really, I think God was very gracious over me at that point in time because all I could think about was our kids. Sorry. Two wonderful and amazing children that they deserve a safe home. They deserve to feel protected. And this was an attack on our family. We have a great example in scripture of Christ protects his bride, how Christ dies to himself to protect his family. So that's where we at. Sometimes protecting your family looks like getting on your knees and praying. Sometimes protecting your family looks like asking a lot of questions. listening intently. I was thankful that in our job, so in higher education, we are required to go through training. I believe it's every year, we're required to complete these modules just on what is Title IX, sexual harassment, all these things. There's one thing that stuck out to me. And it was where there's a power imbalance, there's no such thing as consent. And so I thought, okay, professors, student, doctor, patient, Pastor, congregant. These are all similar relationships where there's a direct power imbalance, there could not have been consent, and I'm smashing all this together. This was not all at one time, this was weeks or maybe months of reflecting and trying to absorb the information that we have. It wasn't until probably a year after it all came out that we really understood ACSA and that entire framework. MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:00:48 But Jack was the first person to raise this piece of information, like how is there consent there as your pastor? And some of the contextual things that I'd never recommend this for anybody, but we were quarantined at the time, with COVID. So we couldn't be with anybody. And so we can laugh about it now a little bit, but it was at the time, just heartbreaking. I was so broken and devastated and confused. It looked like I was coming out of a cult. Like there's this like trauma fog that descends. I didn't know what to do. I followed Jack everywhere in our house. I couldn't be away from him. And so he's grieving and mourning, and I'm following him around and we're quarantined and have little children that were trying to – it was a mess. So everything we did was over Zoom about all the disclosures. JULIE ROYS  1:01:41 So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah? MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:01:45 I don't want to over exaggerate this. And I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was ten times more traumatizing than the abuse. JULIE ROYS  1:02:04 That concludes part one of my interview with Moriah and Jack Smothers, and we're ending on a bit of a cliffhanger. But this is something that I've heard over and over again from victims. The original abuse is horrific, for sure. But it's easier to understand that the church can have one bad apple than to realize that it's not just one bad apple. There's a whole system protecting and managing that one bad apple, often at the expense of the victim. And you'll hear that part of Moriah and Jack's story in part two, and it's such an important story. So I hope you'll be watching for that to release in just a few days. But thank you so much for listening to The Roys Report. And if you've appreciated this podcast and our investigative work, would you please consider giving a gift to support us? As I've said before, we don't have big corporate sponsors or large donors. We have you, the survivors, advocates, allies and church leaders who care about ridding the church of predators and making it a safer place. Also, this month if you give a gift of $30 or more, we'll send you Christy Boulware's book, Nervous Breakthrough; Finding Freedom From Fear and Anxiety in a World That Feeds It. This is such a great resource for anyone struggling with anxiety and panic attacks, or really any mental health issue. So to get the book and support the Roys report, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Our guest is Jim Burgen, Pastor of Flatirons Church in the Boulder, CO area, one of the largest churches in the US. Jim is also a podcaster, author, speaker and founder of The Herd, which encourages, gathers, and connects men through events and resources. We discuss storytelling, The Herd, hunting, how to connect with men in your Church, the message men need, and more. Plus, check out the list of 10 Conferences to Attend this spring. Make sure to visit http://h3leadership.com to access the list and all the show notes. Thanks again to our partners for this episode: GENERIS – Get your FREE Generosity Pulse Report at http://generis.com/h3. A FREE tool designed to provide insights and assess the health of generosity and giving in your Church. Generis will help accelerate generosity in your church, school, college or non-profit. Get started at http://generis.com/h3 to schedule a completely free Pulse Report and set up a complimentary 30-minute coaching session. And to DIME - helping you manage HR, accounting, payroll and tax. Find out more at http://dimeaccounting.com. Get back to doing what you love by allowing DIME to be your comprehensive business services company. Helping simplify your business – DIME can pay the bills, record deposits, file taxes, run payroll, keep the books, provide legal advice and more. Visit http://dimeaccounting.com tto learn more.

God is calling us all into a bigger story than we could ever imagine. Jim Burgen shows us that while it might be hard to see from here, we have to trust that God will connect the dots in the end.

God never promises an easy life, but He does promise an incredible journey ahead to becoming who He designed us to be.#flatironschurch #MarkMoore #JimBurgne #NewYear #BurnTheShips #faith #2023sermon #onlinechurch #churchonline #benfoote #sundaylivestream Bring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church, led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO, with multiple locations in Colorado and online.

Jim Burgen and Jesse DeYoung discuss with Carey the correlation between church growth and toxicity. Get more on this conversation by going to http://theartofleadershipdaily.com/. Brought to you by: The Art of Leadership Academy's Thriving Church Checklist Churches that aren't just surviving but thriving in this season share 8 common traits. To weed out unhealthy areas of your ministry and lead a thriving church, you can get your FREE copy of the Thriving Church Checklist and e-book at https://thrivingchurchchecklist.com/.

On today's episode, Alan and Jonathan each share 4 of their favorite episode clips from this past year. Highlights include: Episode 330: Ruth Haley Barton  Episode 281: Brian Sanders episode Episode 277: Nancy Ortberg  Episode 327 Jim Burgen and Jesse DeYoung  Episode 332 - Alexandra Kuykendall "Where is the good with all this bad?" Episode 326 - Chris Bruno "Midlife crisis or midlife opportunity?" Episode 325 - Dr. Mark Mayfield " Gauging your mental health and those you lead" Episode 309 - Alan and Jonathan "Reinvent; The tension between the past and the future Check out our sponsor Full Strength Network Ministry is hard. Pastors and ministry leaders work long hours with little rest. Maybe your personal life feels exhausting because ministry drains so much energy from you. Often, we're so busy taking care of the people in our ministries, we don't spend the time we should taking care of ourselves. At Full Strength Network, we get it. That's why we have created a wellbeing membership program that gives you access to confidential coaching & counseling experts, relevant wellbeing resources, and a strong community of other pastors focused on living healthy lives. Head over to www.fullstrength.org to learn more and sign up. It's time to take back your wellbeing so you can live and lead well, and Full Strength is here to help. Connect with Full Strength: https://fullstrength.org/

Join us this Sunday as Jim Burgen finishes up our last week in our current series called The Cost.

Join is this Sunday as Jim Burgen finishes up our last week in our current series called The Cost.

Do you ever just wish you could change the past? We spend so much time thinking about how we wish things could be different, or wish that you could have changed the outcome of a decision you made? Take a second to think about what you're spending your life on and join us as we keep tearing through the book of 1 Peter. Join us and follow along with Jim as he unpacks the past, the present and the future of coming of Jesus and how it all is worth paying attention to.#JesusIsComingBack #Revelation #SecondComing #BiggestRegrest #BiblicalTruth #DoesGodCare #1Peter #BibleStudy #Sacrifice #JimBurgen #BenFoote #TheCost #Church #Sermon2022 #FlatironsChurch #WhatAreYouSpendingYourLifeOn #WhatAreYouLivingFor #ChangeThePast #LiveInThePresent #PresentMoment #Mindfulness #LookToTheFuture #EndTimes #EndTimesSermon #ChristianityBring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO with multiple locations in Colorado and online.Give Herehttps://my.flatironschurch.com/give-to-online-campusStay ConnectedWebsite: https://flatironschurch.comFlatirons Church Facebook: https://Facebook.com/flatironsFlatirons Church Instagram: https://Instagram.com/flatironschurchJim Burgen YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgenJim Burgen Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenJim Burgen Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D

Has following Jesus ever felt miserable or like God is just asking you to fight against your desires for the rest of your life? Is it possible that God can change our desires to align with what he has intended for our lives?#Church #Sermon2022 #WhatDoesGodHaveForYou #HealthyRelationships #1Peter #BibleStudy #Sacrifice #Friendships #Identity #TheWillOfGod #LivingForGod #Desires #GodsDesire #Fun #LiveStreaming  #1peter #JesusChrist #Romans #CostofFaith Bring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church, led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO, with multiple locations in Colorado and online.

As an Operative who served as a Country Chief for a Special Unit within the CIA, Nic witnessed not only the epidemic of child trafficking within illicit markets, but also the unrealized opportunity to apply his understanding and training to influence this global crisis. As Nic began to work with experts to better understand the problem in the United States, he found it impossible to turn a blind eye. As a result, DeliverFund was officially established as a 501c3 in October 2014 and our counter human trafficking organization, focused on ending sex slavery in the United States got to work.Nic spent 11 years in US Special Operations as an Air Force Pararescueman prior to being recruited to the Central Intelligence Agency. Due to his highly specialized training and experience in both special and intelligence operations, Nic has a firm understanding about these illicit, illegal markets and has the highest levels of training to effectively combat them.Links: Website: https://deliverfund.orgThe War Against Human Trafficking: https://youtu.be/brpLMVY-wxAThe Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

What if our culture isn't frustrated with Christians for being different, but what if they're frustrated with Christians for not being as different as we claim to be? Check out Ben's talk today as we dive into 1 Peter 3 and hear how followers of Jesus should stand out.#Church #Sermon2022 #JimBurgen #Marriage #DoesGodCare #WhatDoesGodHaveForYou #HealthyRelationships #1Peter #BibleStudy #Sacrifice #WhatsYourStory #StoryTime #ShareYourStory #DontBeSilent #Redeemed #ShareYourTestimony #Testimony #Testify #Relationships #friendships Bring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO with multiple locations in Colorado and online.Give Herehttps://my.flatironschurch.com/give-t...Stay ConnectedWebsite: https://flatironschurch.comFlatirons Church Facebook: https://Facebook.com/flatironsFlatirons Church Instagram: https://Instagram.com/flatironschurchJim Burgen YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodc...Jim Burgen Facebook: 

Crawford grew up in New Jersey and as a teenager he trusted Christ as his Savior. He attended and graduated from Plainfield High School in Plainfield, NJ. He attended and graduated from Cairn University in 1972 with a Bachelor of Science degree in Bible. He and his wife Karen met in college and were married on May 22, 1971. He has traveled throughout the US and much of the world, speaking in churches, evangelistic outreaches, conferences, colleges and seminaries. He has been the featured speaker at Super Bowls, NCAA Final Four Chapel and the Pentagon with senior military officers. He has been a church planter, served for 27years on the staff of Cru (Campus Crusade for Christ) and served for 15 years as Sr. Pastor of Fellowship Bible Church, Roswell, Georgia. He and his wife, Karen, have been featured speakers at FamilyLife marriage conferences. Crawford is the author of 9 books including Your Marriage Today… and Tomorrow, co-authored with Karen. He is the host of two national radio programs, the weekend program Living a Legacy and the daily program Legacy Moments. Crawford serves on several boards including Cru, FamilyLife and Chick-fil-A. He has received five honorary Doctorates (Biola Univ., Cairn Univ., Moody Bible Institute, Trinity International Univ. and Columbia International Univ.). Crawford is President and Founder of Beyond Our Generation and is committed to encouraging and helping to shape the next generation of Christian leaders. Crawford and Karen have 4 adult children and 11 grandchildren.The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

God is working in other people's lives in ways that you know nothing about. How cool would it be if your story is what God uses to begin writing a new story for someone else?Bring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO with multiple locations in Colorado and online.Give Here[https://my.flatironschurch.com/give-to-online-campus](https://my.flatironschurch.com/give-to-online-campus)Stay Connected:Website: flatironschurch.comFlatirons Church Facebook: Facebook.com/flatironsFlatirons Church Instagram: Instagram.com/flatironschurchJim Burgen YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgenJim Burgen Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenJim Burgen Instagram: https://instagram.com/jimburgen?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Does being disconnected from the most critical relationships in our lives impact our relationship with God? Jim Burgen will dive into what God says about being a Husband and how to work toward a healthy, thriving marriage.

Does being disconnected from the most critical relationships in our lives impact our relationship with God? Jim Burgen will dive into what God says about being a Husband and how to work toward a healthy, thriving marriage.

If you would like to attend a similar retreat to what I mentioned in this episode, go to www.liminalwork.com.The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

What does your idea of a great marriage or relationship look like, and do you think it aligns with what God had initially planned? Today Jim Burgen is kicking off a new series where you'll get a chance to take a closer look at what God intended for your marriage and relationships.#church #sermon2022 #jimburgen #marriage #dating #loveanddating #sexandlove #christianmarriage #menandmarriage #marriedwomen #doesGodcare #whatdoesGodhaveforyou #healthyrelationships #1peter #biblestudy #sacrifice #husbandsandwives #howtobeahusband #howtobeawife #ido #benfoote #thesecrettomarriageBring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO with multiple locations in Colorado and online.Give Herehttps://my.flatironschurch.com/give-t...Stay ConnectedWebsite: https://flatironschurch.comFlatirons Church Facebook: https://Facebook.com/flatironsFlatirons Church Instagram: https://Instagram.com/flatironschurchJim Burgen YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgenJim Burgen Facebook:

On today's episode, Alan has a candid conversation with Flatirons Church Lead Pastor, Jim Burgen, and Executive Pastor, Jesse DeYoung, talk candidly and openly about the importance of sabbaticals, How not to approach a sabbatical, and how Jim returned from sabbatical leading from a posture of health. Listen to Jim and Jesse on episode 515 of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast.  https://careynieuwhof.com/episode515/ Join the Right Side Up Collective www.rightsideupcollective.com Schedule a complimentary breakthrough coaching session www.stayforth.com/coaching

Q&A Panel from Left to Right:Matt LoweBrad LomenickRorke DenverJim BurgenJason Martinkus Chris MosherThe Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

How we are to respond if our Nations laws conflict with God's laws? Jim Burgen teaches on the purpose of God's laws and what life looks like when we pledge allegiance to Jesus over the Nation we live in.

How we are to respond if our Nations laws conflict with God's laws? Jim Burgen teaches on the purpose of God's laws and what life looks like when we pledge allegiance to Jesus over the Nation we live in.

0:01 - Introduction 3:46 - What Technology is doing to us8:15 - How do we pastor people online?14:18 - Merging Digital and Analog for Church17:08 - Is online church incentivizing people to not come back to church?25:08 - The do's and don'ts of online community32:00 - What's the next step after consuming content. The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

This week we introduce a brand new series called True North, where Jim Burgen leads us through 1 Peter 2 and discusses the one thing we need to do to grow up in our faith.

This week we introduce a brand new series called True North, where Jim Burgen leads us through 1 Peter 2 and discusses the one thing we need to do to grow up in our faith.

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

Flatirons Church Lead Pastor, Jim Burgen, and Executive Pastor, Jesse DeYoung, talk candidly and openly about how a toxic leadership culture developed at Flatirons, how Jim ended up fusing church size and growth with his personal identity, how the weight of leading a large church became crushing, the impact of a forced sabbatical, and how Jim came back to a different, healthier and more humble kind of leadership. Get more on this episode by going to https://careynieuwhof.com/episode515.

COMMANDER'S COFFEE:www.Rorkedenver.comInstagram: @rorketdenverhttps://www.instagram.com/rorketdenver/?hl=enFacebook: Rorke Denver https://www.facebook.com/rorkedenverauthor/Twitter: @RorkeDenverhttps://twitter.com/RorkeDenverThe Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://www.jimburgen.com

2:06 Adam Weber 6:05 Walking away from faith to becoming a pastor11:27 Going through a hard leadership season 17:42 Tough decisions and what's at stake24:35 The definition of self aware27:12 How Leadership affects our family33:00 One of the most powerful things a dad can do36:36 Acknowledging power dynamics in leadership 42:15 Healing and forgiveness are not a event Adam's Podcast:https://www.adamweber.com/theconversationAdam's Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/adamaweber/The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/Website:https://jimburgen.com

1:28 - Acts 293:30 - How we first met7:10 - Family life 10:10 - Challenges Men Face22:00 - Seeking Forgiveness and reconciliation 24:50 - Stop being a victim26:20 - Men are aiming at the wrong thing 32:00 - It's a journey for all of us 34:45 - A Conversation with our younger selvesAbout Matt Chandler:Matt Chandler is a husband, father, pastor, elder, and author whose greatest desire is to make much of Jesus. He has served nearly 20 years as the Lead Pastor at The Village Church in Flower Mound, TX which recently transitioned its 5 campuses into their own autonomous churches. He is also the President of the Acts 29 Network, a large church planting community that trains and equips church planters across the globe. Matt is known around the world for proclaiming the gospel in a powerful and down-to-earth way and enjoys traveling to share the message of Jesus whenever he can. He lives in Texas with his beautiful wife Lauren and their three children, Audrey, Reid, and Norah. Church:https://www.thevillagechurch.netActs 29:https://www.acts29.comInstagram:https://www.instagram.com/mattchandler74/Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattchandler74The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

Bring the awesome life of Christ to people in a lost and broken world; this is the mission of Flatirons Church led by Jim Burgen and based in Lafayette, CO with multiple locations in Colorado and online.

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodc...Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

“The leadership lesson was that it all happened on my watch. It wasn't all my fault, but it was my responsibility as a leader to shepherd my staff well and I wasn't doing that.” Meet Jim Burgen from Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. In one of the most heartfelt and vulnerable episodes of our show, Jim opens up about what triggered his six month sabbatical and how God used it for Jim to come back as a better, healthier & stronger leader, just before Covid hit. Jim shares what he learned about himself, about the team at Flatirons, and how all of those lessons were imperative to setting him up well for a succession within the next five years. “I learned that I better be investing in Jesus and my wife, because they will still be there when I'm no longer at Flatirons.” Welcome to Episode 061 of the Leaders in Living Rooms Podcast with Sean Morgan.

Lee and Jeff continue the conversation about toxic church culture with Jim Burgen, Senior Pastor of Flatirons Church. Jim shares his story of unknowingly creating a toxic culture, and how he and his team worked their way out of it. We know you'll love hearing his wisdom and hope that you'll integrate some of their learnings into your team. Enjoy!

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodc...Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

Worship is simply a statement of the things you assign value to. It's more than a song. It's more than one day a week. Worship is a lifestyle. In this message, Guest Speaker Jim Burgen, teaches us the true meaning of worship.  •     Worship can be better understood through the history of the Old Testament. 1 Samuel 4:22 (NIV) Psalm 132:2-5 (NIV) 2 Samuel 6:1-23 (NIV) Psalm 47:1-2 (NIV) Psalm 149:1-3 (NIV) Psalm 134:1-2 (NIV) 1 Timothy 2:8 (NIV) Psalm 150:1-6 (NIV) 2 Chronicles 29:25 (NIV) Amos 9:11-15 (NIV) The first sermon you will ever preach is your public confession and baptism. The second sermon is your daily worship of Jesus. 

In this episode of Rethink, Jim sits down with Shawn Johnson, pastor of Red Rocks Church and author of Attacking Anxiety. Shawn and Jim talk about some of the mental health struggles with associated with being a pastor, connecting during one of the hardest moments in their life, and tips for anyone struggling with Anxiety.0:00 Introduction 4:14 Loneliness 6:40 Leading as a broken person11:58 The moment things changed15:18 When your leaders put you on the bench22:30 Identity crisis  23:57 Stories from Counseling 27:57 Whats different now?30:23 Whats one thing for people dealing with anxiety and depression?Connect with Shawn:https://twitter.com/shawnjohnsonrrchttps://www.instagram.com/shawnjohnsonrrchttps://www.facebook.com/shawnjohnsonrrcBook Links:Attacking Anxiety (Audible)- https://amzn.to/3vnls89Attacking Anxiety (Paperback)- https://amzn.to/3Ls9Y8RThe Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people.Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.⬇️ SUBSCRIBE  on YouTube and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

In this episode of Rethink, Brad and Jim talk about how sometimes leaders can become toxic despite being successful.At times, toxic Leadership may produce results, but it can also lead to burnout, lack of trust, resentment, and a slew of other emotions.The good news is it doesn't have to be this way. Brad and Jim cover each of their journeys and offer advice the next generation of leaders can learn from. Connect with Brad:http://www.bradlomenick.comhttps://twitter.com/bradlomenickhttps://www.instagram.com/bradlomenick/https://www.facebook.com/bradlomenickLeadership events:Culture summit - https://conference.qideas.orgArk Conference - https://arcconference.comOrange Conference - https://theorangeconference.comThrive Conference - https://thriveconference.org/leadershipnorcal/Catalyst - https://www.catalystleader.comBook Links:Brad Lomenick:H3 Leadership - https://amzn.to/38zUL7g - Audible - https://amzn.to/3jboRQyPatrick Lencioni:The Ideal Team Player - https://amzn.to/3rbHGHL - Audible - https://amzn.to/3jgPmUxThe Advantage  - https://amzn.to/3ueWase - Audible - https://amzn.to/3raJxMLSimon Sinek:Start With Why - https://amzn.to/3v3FByu - Audible - https://amzn.to/3ujVd1CLeaders Eat Last - https://amzn.to/37pydpg - Audible - https://amzn.to/3jbcWlPGary Vaynerchuk:Crush it  - https://amzn.to/3JhRPZB - Audible - https://amzn.to/3LLm78GTwelve and a Half - https://amzn.to/3JiALme - Audible - https://amzn.to/3v85NbAGary Vee Audio Experience https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/podcast/The Rethink podcast aims to inspire men to step up and challenge them to take a leap of faith to become better people.Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic manhood by having real conversations with real people about real things.Join the conversation in the comments below! ⬇️ SUBSCRIBE and get notified when a new episode drops. ⬇️https://www.youtube.com/c/RethinkPodcastwithJimBurgen?sub_confirmation=1Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

When what you had going on gets interrupted, is it possible that God is trying to get your attention, to redirect you toward a better way of life? Lead Pastor, Jim Burgen, challenges us to focus on finding our way to the heart of God's truth through obedience.

When what you had going on gets interrupted, is it possible that God is trying to get your attention, to redirect you toward a better way of life? Lead Pastor, Jim Burgen, challenges us to focus on finding our way to the heart of God's truth through obedience.

How does God teach us that His truth really is true, that it is a better way, and that it leads to a better life? Join us as Pastor Jim Burgen unpacks what would happen if we let Jesus interrupt our lives.

In this episode of the Rethink Podcast with Jim Burgen, we talk to Noah Brandt, the Director of Government Affairs at Live Action, about the  Reproductive Health Equity Act in Colorado. 0:00 Introduction to Live Action 5:57 Why This Bill is Concerning 7:48 The Big Difference About This Bill 10:00 What "Refrain From Acting" Means 11:44 Defining "Public Entity" 14:40 Why This Law is Written so Broadly 17:59 What Does This Bill Not Say, But Make Possible21:28 Difference Between This Bill and the Recent Maryland Bill24:10 What Are Our Options Now?Watch the Baby Olivia Video:https://youtu.be/S-lQOooYAs8Learn more about Live Action:https://www.liveaction.orgRead the Bill:https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2022A/bills/2022a_1279_rer.pdfJoin us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic biblical manhood.Have an idea for future episodes? Email us rethink@flatironschurch.comTwitter: @JimBurgenhttps://twitter.com/JimBurgenFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.burgenInstagram: @JimBurgenhttps://www.instagram.com/jimburgen/

In this episode of the Rethink Podcast with Jim Burgen, we discuss the qualities of a good man and how learning God's character leads to security in our identity in Christ. A good man is a faithful man who can confidently say, "I know who I am; I know who God is; I know He will leverage what has happened to me for something good." We become better men, husbands, and fathers when we walk alongside God, rather than trying to take his place or put something else where he belongs.The ReThink Podcast is a series of conversations with Jim Burgen, focusing on becoming the men God calls us to be. Join us weekly as we Rethink what it means to be a man in today's world and discuss tangible ways to chase after authentic biblical manhood.Have an idea for future episodes? Email us

God is calling us all into a bigger story than we could ever imagine. Jim Burgen shows us that while it might be hard to see from here, we have to trust that God will connect the dots in the end.

What might your life be, look, and feel like if you lined up with what Jesus says is better?

In this episode we get to hear from Pastor Jim Burgen from Flatirons Church in Colorado. Here are a few links to check out: Flatirons ChurchMoss Rock Ranch (Pastor Retreats) Jim's Instagram

Camouflaged | Courageous Action | Jim Burgen

Jim Burgen, Senior Pastor at Flatirons Community Church in Lafayette, Colorado presents the third message in our series, Big God. Big Church at Hope Community Church on Feb. 7, 2021.

6 Months ago, Jim Burgen, the pastor of Flatirons Community Church stepped away. During the months on his absence, a few things transpired at the church, and this weekend, Jim made his return. In this episode of the podcast, Dustin and Peyton discuss Jim's return and their thoughts on the status of Flatirons Community Church.

Have you ever had a Hero? Growing up I never idolize sports heroes or WWF wrestlers like all my friends. I was more of a Gene Roddenberry and Walt Disney guy. They created worlds both imaginary and physical; wolds were there were happy endings and worlds that showcased the best of humanity They were all I had until I started attending Flat Irons Community Church and I discovered a man named Jim Burgen. As the Lead Pastor, he taught me what Christian masculinity could look like. He even celebrated it. He taught me the healing power that a band of brother and brutal honesty could bring. He and his vision is one of the reasons 1720 exist. But with high pedestals come long falls and this week my hero took a tumble. Today we will examine how a strong vision can impact its followers and what it looks like when the power behind the vision falls. I hope you get something out of it.

We talk abortion, life, and how we should approach the topic.

Jim fills us in on his vacation, going to another church, and how to talk about Jesus.

Jim and Cole talk about the difference between joy and happiness.

Jake Bodine, founder of God Behind Bars, talks about the needs of the incarcerated and why he started the organization.

We talk about money and faith without giving you the usual guilt trip.

What does it look like to seek the Kingdom of God first vs. putting it in a different spot?

Jim talks about the difference between what typical religion says we should do and reality.

Jim and Cole talk about addressing issues at the core, instead of reacting to the end result.

We look at how to develop muscle memory for the lifestyle that Jesus wants us to live.

We talk through the challenges of teaching a man series and what goes into creating each message.

Jim Burgen and Cole Willard talk expectations, the latest Flatirons man series, fighting passivity, weakness, and how to change your thoughts.

Flatirons Men's Pastor Dan Foote talks with Flatirons Lead Pastor Jim Burgen about some of the dominos that have fallen in his life, and how they have fallen on others.

Flatirons Men's Pastor Dan Foote talks with Flatirons Lead Pastor Jim Burgen about some of the dominos that have fallen in his life, and how they have fallen on others.

In part two of this episode Flatirons Community Church Pastors Scott Nickell and Jim Burgen discuss when you should fight and when you should surrender. They focus on the battles we face outside of the home, and when you need to come alongside your children to face challenging issues in school, with friends or even at church. Email your questions to: parents@flatironschurch.com to have them answered on the podcast.

Flatirons Community Church Pastors, Scott Nickell and Jim Burgen, discuss when you should fight and when you should surrender. The first episode in this two-part podcast is focused on the battles we face in the home and how to parent with discipline and stand firm on the values you have created for your children.

There is a tension to Jesus' life and ministry that many have tried to resolve. In one moment he could be relentless in extending compassion to one person and then be equally relentless in speaking hard truths to someone else in the next. So was Jesus primarily concerned with extending grace OR with speaking truth? Was he tender OR unyielding? The answer might surprise you. Special thanks to Jim Burgen and Andy Stanley for their contributions to this message. For more information about Mosaic, visit us at mosaiclincoln.com

• Phil Pringle's Deadly False Doctrine • Rick Warren's Imagination Doctrine • Contestant #5 Jim Burgen of Flatirons Church

• Pastor Says God Told Her to Appear on 'Sex Box' TV Show • Email • Brief Look at the Theonomy Debate • Sermon Review: Mystery of the Kingdom by Jim Burgen, Flatirons Community Church

Sometimes our glossed over versions of the Christmas story can cause us to miss the fact that these were real people with real pain, real struggles, and real questions about God. This week we continue our Christmas series by looking at the central, yet often misunderstood person of Mary. Special thanks to Jim Burgen, Craig Groeschel and John Ortberg for their contributions to this message. For more information, visit us at mosaiclincoln.com.