Podcasts about when narcissism comes

What happens when character formation breaks down in church leadership? Steve Cuss and psychologist-theologian Chuck DeGroat work through the hidden dynamics behind pastoral burnout, narcissism, and the slow erosion of integrity. They explore how unexamined coping mechanisms shape identity, why church boards often miss red flags, and what it really takes to create a culture of safety and true accountability. Steve and Chuck offer tools for healthier leadership—inside and outside the church. Resources mentioned in this episode include: The work of Chuck DeGroat at Western Seminary Explore the Soul Care Institute The work of Michael Gurian Chuck DeGroat's When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse Chuck DeGroat's Wholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion, and Healing the Divided Self Chuck DeGroat's Healing What's Within: Coming Home to Yourself--and to God--When You're Wounded, Weary, and Wandering Sign up for Steve's Newsletter & Podcast Reminders: Capable Life Newsletter Join Steve at an upcoming intensive:  Capable Life Intensives Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode, I'm joined by my friend Sarah Bucky Klinginger, a tireless advocate for victims of church-related harm, as we explore the harrowing stories and systemic failures that often leave survivors marginalized and voiceless. On today's episode, we're talking about : •Abuse in Evangelical Churches – The episode highlights widespread abuse scandals in Protestant churches, exposing how power and secrecy enable harm.• Narcissism in Church Leadership – Chuck DeGroat explains how churches can foster narcissistic cultures that prioritize image, suppress dissent, and protect abusive leaders.• The Cost of Whistleblowing – Speaking out against abuse has heavy consequences, yet biblical prophets and faith leaders model the courage to do so.• Parallels in Politics – The Trump administration mirrors narcissistic church leadership, using chaos, gaslighting, and media manipulation to maintain control.• A Call to Action & Hope—Inspired by faith leaders and activists, this episode encourages listeners to resist oppression and work toward a more just and compassionate world.Links:Chuck DeGroat, When Narcissism Comes to Church https://www.amazon.com/When-Narcissism-Comes-Church-Community/dp/0830841598 The Ezra Klein Show https://youtu.be/K8QLgLfqh6s?si=ApVdkYjcVE57pJ1O Scot McKnight and Cody Matchett https://zondervanacademic.com/products/revelation-For-the-rest-of-us

If you're feeling the weight of past trauma and struggling to heal, then you are not alone! The journey to healing from abuse and trauma is often filled with challenges, and finding the right tools to navigate this journey can be overwhelming. But what if there was a resource that could guide you through this process and help you cultivate well-being? In this episode, you will be able to: Explore the transformative power of therapy in healing from abuse and trauma and reclaiming your well-being. Uncover the impact of narcissism in church leadership and gain insights into navigating the complexities of this issue. Discover the invaluable benefits of professional mental health support and how it can positively impact your healing journey. Understand the profound connection between attachment issues and trauma recovery and how it influences your healing process. Embrace the role of self-regulation in effective leadership and learn how it can enhance your personal and professional growth. My special guest is Dr. Chuck DeGroat Dr. Chuck DeGroat, a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the podcast. With a background in therapy, spiritual direction, and as a licensed therapist, Chuck specializes in navigating issues of abuse, trauma, pastoral and leadership health, and doubt. His profound insights and compassionate approach make him a thought leader in the space of healing from workplace abuse and trauma. Chuck's dedication to helping individuals understand and heal from the impact of abuse and trauma, combined with his extensive experience in training clergy and consulting with churches, makes him an invaluable resource for anyone seeking insight and guidance in their healing journey. The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast 00:01:40 - Chuck DeGroat's Background 00:03:22 - Evolution of Chuck DeGroat's Approach 00:11:03 - Faux Vulnerability in Church Leadership 00:13:09 - Misuse of Self-Work for Immunity 00:13:40 - Dysfunctional Dynamics in Churches 00:14:58 - Toxic Leadership and Manipulation 00:19:06 - Nervous System Dysregulation 00:22:10 - Healing Attachment Wounds 00:25:52 - Transformation and Non-Anxious Presence 00:26:17 - Recognizing Patterns of Toxic Behavior 00:27:24 - Accountability and Systemic Change 00:29:15 - Rebuilding for the Future 00:30:49 - Understanding Shame Dynamics 00:35:15 - Rediscovering the Goodness of the Heart 00:39:20 - Men Doing Deeper Work 00:40:02 - Bullying and Women 00:41:15 - Complimenting Each Other's Work 00:41:39 - Encouraging Curiosity and Healing 00:42:42 - Embracing Curiosity and Healing 00:53:11 - Finding Healing and Freedom 00:53:32 - Hope in "Healing What's Within" Trauma is not what happens to us, but what happens within. - Chuck DeGroat Order Healing What's Within by Dr. Chuck DeGroot on his website chuckdegroat.net or through major book retailers like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Book Depository. Join the Patreon community at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to access exclusive content, one you don't want to miss an exclusive with Dr. Chuck DeGroat. Listen to our first episode with Dr. Chuck DeGroat about his book When Narcissism Comes to Church Explore additional resources recommended by Dr. Chuck DeGroot at the end of each chapter, such as Dan Allender's To Be Told: Know Your Story, Shape Your Life and Frederick Buechner's Telling Secrets. Engage in introspective and mindful practices to support your healing journey, such as deep breathing, visualization, EMDR and brainspotting. Gift Healing What's Within to friends or loved ones who could benefit from the valuable tools and insights shared in the book. Connect with us: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com Linkedin YouTube FaceBook Instagram Threads Patreon Bluesky TikTok Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're feeling the weight of past trauma and struggling to heal, then you are not alone! The journey to healing from abuse and trauma is often filled with challenges, and finding the right tools to navigate this journey can be overwhelming. But what if there was a resource that could guide you through this process and help you cultivate well-being? In this episode, you will be able to: Explore the transformative power of therapy in healing from abuse and trauma and reclaiming your well-being. Uncover the impact of narcissism in church leadership and gain insights into navigating the complexities of this issue. Discover the invaluable benefits of professional mental health support and how it can positively impact your healing journey. Understand the profound connection between attachment issues and trauma recovery and how it influences your healing process. Embrace the role of self-regulation in effective leadership and learn how it can enhance your personal and professional growth. My special guest is Dr. Chuck DeGroat Dr. Chuck DeGroat, a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the podcast. With a background in therapy, spiritual direction, and as a licensed therapist, Chuck specializes in navigating issues of abuse, trauma, pastoral and leadership health, and doubt. His profound insights and compassionate approach make him a thought leader in the space of healing from workplace abuse and trauma. Chuck's dedication to helping individuals understand and heal from the impact of abuse and trauma, combined with his extensive experience in training clergy and consulting with churches, makes him an invaluable resource for anyone seeking insight and guidance in their healing journey. The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast 00:01:40 - Chuck DeGroat's Background 00:03:22 - Evolution of Chuck DeGroat's Approach 00:11:03 - Faux Vulnerability in Church Leadership 00:13:09 - Misuse of Self-Work for Immunity 00:13:40 - Dysfunctional Dynamics in Churches 00:14:58 - Toxic Leadership and Manipulation 00:19:06 - Nervous System Dysregulation 00:22:10 - Healing Attachment Wounds 00:25:52 - Transformation and Non-Anxious Presence 00:26:17 - Recognizing Patterns of Toxic Behavior 00:27:24 - Accountability and Systemic Change 00:29:15 - Rebuilding for the Future 00:30:49 - Understanding Shame Dynamics 00:35:15 - Rediscovering the Goodness of the Heart 00:39:20 - Men Doing Deeper Work 00:40:02 - Bullying and Women 00:41:15 - Complimenting Each Other's Work 00:41:39 - Encouraging Curiosity and Healing 00:42:42 - Embracing Curiosity and Healing 00:53:11 - Finding Healing and Freedom 00:53:32 - Hope in "Healing What's Within" Trauma is not what happens to us, but what happens within. - Chuck DeGroat Order Healing What's Within by Dr. Chuck DeGroot on his website chuckdegroat.net or through major book retailers like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Book Depository. Join the Patreon community at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to access exclusive content, one you don't want to miss an exclusive with Dr. Chuck DeGroat. Listen to our first episode with Dr. Chuck DeGroat about his book When Narcissism Comes to Church Explore additional resources recommended by Dr. Chuck DeGroot at the end of each chapter, such as Dan Allender's To Be Told: Know Your Story, Shape Your Life and Frederick Buechner's Telling Secrets. Engage in introspective and mindful practices to support your healing journey, such as deep breathing, visualization, EMDR and brainspotting. Gift Healing What's Within to friends or loved ones who could benefit from the valuable tools and insights shared in the book. Connect with us: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com Linkedin YouTube FaceBook Instagram Threads Patreon Bluesky TikTok Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week's episode of The Allender Center Podcast, licensed therapist, professor, and author Chuck DeGroat returns to discuss his latest book, “Healing What's Within: Coming Home to Yourself—and to God—When You're Wounded, Weary, and Wandering.” In this deeply personal and insightful conversation, Chuck explores the profound journey of healing from trauma, especially when it's caused by circumstances beyond our control. After the release of his previous book, “When Narcissism Comes to Church,” Chuck was flooded with messages from people dealing with wounds that weren't their fault. This prompted him to ask: How do we move from being defined by what happens to us, to understanding the transformation that happens within us? In “Healing What's Within,” Chuck invites readers to encounter God as a compassionate witness to their trauma, offering unconditional kindness and presence in whatever state they find themselves. If you're seeking hope and healing on your journey, we highly recommend this book, which is available wherever books are sold.

Like many of us, you carry a weight of buried pain. You feel secretly fractured within. There's a constant churn of unprocessed feelings of shame, anger, grief, or loneliness. But it doesn't have to be this way. Chuck DeGroat is the Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Executive Director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary Holland MI.  He is also a licensed and practicing therapist, a spiritual director, author of five books. He wrote When Narcissism Comes to Church and his newest book just landed in early October Healing What's Within: Coming Home to Yourself and to God When You're Weary, Wounded, and Wandering. (Oct. 8).00:00 Introduction to Healing and Spiritual Formation00:42 Meet Dr. Chuck DeGroat: Author and Therapist01:38 The Journey from Narcissism to Healing03:30 Understanding Trauma: Beyond the Outrage05:19 The Power of Personal Story in Healing15:55 Exploring the Genesis Examine23:38 The Core Message: Healing from Within28:09 Reflections and Future DirectionsFREE Attaching to God SummitBuilding Emotional & Spiritual Health by Attaching to God: Register Free NOWStay Connected: NEED spiritual direction or coaching that aligns with this podcast? Connect with Cyd Holsclaw here. Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources. Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).

What do you do after someone hurts you? How do you heal the pain that lingers inside of you? This is such an incredibly helpful, honest and vulnerable conversation with my friend and fellow therapist Chuck DeGroat, author of the brand new book Healing What's Within. Chuck taught us so much about the harmful realities of narcissism in his book, When Narcissism Comes to Church, and now he's helping us heal the lingering wounds. Here's what we cover: 1. The moment that launched 5 years of inner chaos for Chuck 2. 3 surprising questions God asks to each of us 3. How Adam & Eve were manipulated 4. The first step when dealing with narcissism 5. How take feedback from others 6. How to ask for what you need from others Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here. Pre-order Healing What's Within: Coming Home to Yourself--and to God--When You're Wounded, Weary, and Wandering If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love: Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven Thanks to our sponsors: Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today. Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift! Visit cozyearth.com and unlock an exclusive 35% off with code BESTOFYOU. Music by Andy Luiten Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/v_OzUDcA3u0If you're like a lot of folks, you look put together on the outside. But inside, there's a constant churn of unprocessed shame, anger, or grief. Little by little, you're becoming disconnected from who you really are. But professor, author and licensed therapist, Chuck DeGroat, says it doesn't have to be this way. And on this podcast, he invites listeners to take the journey to true healing. You may know Chuck as the author of his very popular 2020 book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. But in his newest book, Healing What's Within, Chuck opens up about one of the most traumatic experiences of his life—when he got fired from his job at a church. Chuck did what a lot of us do when we're experiencing excruciating pain—he pushed it down and soldiered through. After all, he had a family to support and career to salvage. But eventually, that trauma began to manifest in his body. And he found he could no longer ignore the pain—or rely on his means of coping. He had to confront the profound disconnection he felt from himself, from others, and from God.  With the heart of a caring pastor and expertise of a licensed therapist, Chuck shows the way to hope and healing for the deep wounds within your soul. Guests Chuck DeGroat Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and a faculty member of the Soul Care Institute. He is a therapist, speaker, consultant, pastor, and author of several books including When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Chuck is married to Sara and has two daughters. Learn more at www.chuckdegroat.net Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Host Heather Creekmore and Dr. Tamara Rosier offers invaluable insights into navigating relationships with narcissists and understanding the crucial role of boundaries. Here are three key takeaways:

Join Jim and Trisha as they discuss how assigned authority affects our lives with their guest Ryan Donovan. Take the time to listen to the hard questions being asked about how the role of authority in today's world has shifted and changed.    Ryan Donovan is a licensed counselor who lives in Austin, Texas who loves the outdoors. He plays fastpitch softball in his free time, and his life experience has equipped him in some really important ways to join in this conversation. Ryan is also involved in coaching with The Leader's Journey.   Conversation Overview:   Recognizing Blind Spots Assigned Authority The Paradigm Shift  Connection vs. Commitment Asking the Right Questions The Effects of a Double Bind Stewardship of Authority   Church Cares and the book "Becoming a Church That Cares Well for the Abused"   GRACE - Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment   A Church Called Tov   When Narcissism Comes to Church   Bully Pulpit   Matt Tebbe's substack

AWAKEN Awakening to Authentic Ministry 4.21.24 1 Thessalonians 2:1-12 You know, brothers and sisters, that our visit to you was not without results. 2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition. 3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4 On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. 5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. 7 Instead, we were like young children among you. Just as a nursing mother cares for her children, 8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory. Paul reminds us that the essence of healthy Christian leadership is not about power or position or influence, but relationships. When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck Degroat The church can wound and the church can heal. So, how do we bring about this reform needed in the church today? 1. We fight against the temptation to sit on the sideline and become a critic 2. We choose to embody healthy, genuine leadership with pure motives 3. We choose not to feed into the narcissistic culture of church and leadership 4. We embody an Ephesians 4 vision of the church with shared gifts and leadership 5. We continually center our lives on Jesus, the Word of God, and a commitment to discipleship and spiritual formation. Henri Nouwen The long painful history of the Church is the history of people ever and again tempted to choose power over love, control over the cross, being a leader over being led. Those who resisted this temptation to the end and thereby give us hope are the true saints. One thing is clear to me: the temptation of power is greatest when intimacy is a threat. Much Christian leadership is exercised by people who do not know how to develop healthy, intimate relationships and have opted for power and control instead. Many Christian empire-builders have been people unable to give and receive love.

Studies show that a majority of kids raised in Christian homes are leaving the faith when they leave the nest. It is vital that we understand the primary reasons why young people no longer believe if we want to help them return to the faith.   In this episode, Catherine airs an important conversation she had recently on the Redeeming the Chaos Podcast with Laurie Christine. Catherine and Laurie discuss new research which tells us why young people are bailing on Christianity. Highlighted are the 7 most prominent reasons Gen Zrs cite for walking away from the Christian faith. They are:   1. I have a hard time believing that a good God would allow so much evil or suffering in the world (29%): see EPISODE 66 w/ Dr. Douglas Groothuis 2. Christians are hypocrites (23%) 3. I believe science refutes too much of the Bible (20%) See Dr. Stephen Meyer: Signature in the Cell, The Return of the God Hypothesis, and Darwin's Doubt; also see Dr. John Lennox (The “God Delusion “ Debate with Richard Dawkins) 4. I don't believe in fairy tales (19%) see “The Case for Christ” & “The Case for Christ for Kids” by Lee Strobel 5. There are too many injustices in the history of Christianity (15%) see Episode 9: How Does Christian Worldview Creates the World We all Want to Live”, see Episodes 93, 94, & 95 w/ Os Guinness 6. I used to go to church, but it's just not important to me anymore (12%) 7. I had a bad experience in church/with a Christian (6%) see Episodes 39, 40, 41, & 42; see “When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional & Spiritual Abuse” by Dr. Chuck DeGroat   Catherine offers some helpful resources to consult if a child you know has embraced one of these claims about Christianity, and she and Laurie also offer some helpful resources for discipling younger kids in the faith.   BIO: Laurie Christine is an author, podcast host, Biblical Parenting Coach, wife, and mom of four loud, adventurous boys. Her podcast, Redeeming the Chaos, invites moms of boys to join her on the wild, wonderful adventure of raising courageous boys and connecting them with Christ Her new devotional book for boys, Rise of the Enemy, was released on Amazon last year.   RESOURCES REFERENCED AND CITED:   “Emerging Gen Z may deliver huge blow to religion in U.S.” by Jeff Brumley (June 8, 2018) The American Worldview Inventory in 2022 highlights worldview beliefs of American pastors. “Only Half of Evangelical Pastors Possess a Christian Worldview: Incidence Even Lower for Most Denominations” (Cultural Research Cente::ACU) ACU Cultural Research Center Worldview Inventory 2020-current Foundation Worldview Curriculum (use “CPCW10” code for 10% discount) Apologia: What We Believe (4 volume set)   EPISODES CITED: Episode 57: “How To Teach Your Kids the Christian Worldview” w/ Elizabeth Urbanowicz Episode 58: “7 Lies Culture is Selling Our Kids: Are They Buying?” w/ Elizabeth Urbanowicz Episode 72: “What Do People Leaving the Faith often Get Wrong about God?” w/ Elizabeth Urbanowics Episode 84: “How To Learn More Scripture in 2024 Than You Ever Have Before” w/ Zac Fitzsimmons   SCRIPTURES REFERENCED:   Psalm 78:1-8 Hebrews 10:25 Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Over the last few years, there has been a lot of discussion about narcissism and the destruction it can do: in politics, in organizations, and unfortunately, in churches. Is narcissism self-love or does it disguise something deeper? Why are the qualities of a narcissist often praised in leaders? How can we encourage cultures of humility, vulnerability, and curiosity instead of narcissism? We talk with Chuck DeGroat, author of "When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse" Chuck DeGroat (LPC, PhD) is professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and senior fellow at Newbigin House of Studies in San Francisco. He served as a pastor at churches in Orlando and San Francisco and founded two church-based counseling centers. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, and the author of Toughest People to Love and Wholeheartedness. Find Chuck at ChuckDeGroat.net and social media @ChuckDeGroat

Revd Dr. Chuck Degroat is a licensed therapist, as well as a Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality, and Executive Director and Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary. He is the author of many books, including When Narcissism Comes to Church, Leaving Egypt, and Toughest People to Love. In this episode we begin our series on “trauma” with an introduction to trauma. We explore some definitions of trauma, various misunderstandings of trauma, trauma and resilience, typical trauma responses, and how to begin processing our own trauma. Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne, Dr. Madison Pierce, Rev. Dr. Chris Porter, Dr. Sydney Tooth, and Dr. Logan Williams. Series Disclaimer: This series explores the concept of “trauma,” its sources, and its expressions from a range of perspectives. Some of our guests are licensed mental health professionals; some are those with formative experiences of trauma; and others are those who explore trauma through various theoretical frameworks. We hope that this series provides useful information to all that enables them to begin to be trauma-informed and to love others and themselves better. Our series is by no means meant to replace the important work of one-on-one time with a trauma-informed professional.

What character formation is required for soul care professionals, people like therapists, pastors, or spiritual directors? And what does this mean for everyone who follows Jesus? It is humility and hope, says Dr. Chuck DeGroat. It is doing your work, the work on yourself. Today we talk about how so often (like pastors) therapists in training receive little character formation even while they receive the information needed to diagnose and remedy mental illnesses.  Dr. DeGroat talks about his own pastoral and therapeutic training, how counselors (like pastors) are often taught how to help others without learning to help themselves ("doing your work"), and how cultivating humility and hope will go a little way in solving this problem. Connect with Dr. Chuck DeGroat here.And see his new Masters in Clinical Mental Health Counseling.Or join Cyd and Geoff in their new Doctor of Ministry in Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience.Chuck DeGroat is a Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Executive Director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary Holland MI.  Chuck is a licensed therapist, a spiritual director, and author of five books, one of which is When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.  As a therapist, he specialized in issues of abuse and trauma, and pastoral (and leadership) health.Join Attaching to God Learning Cohort: Quieting an Anxious and Avoidant Faith.Starting October 16, and meets Mondays, 8 pm -9 pm, Eastern Time. Link: https://www.embodiedfaith.life/attaching-to-god-cohort DMIN in Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience program information is here (https://sfrn.westernsem.edu/).Stay Connected: Need spiritual coaching that aligns with this podcast? Connect with Cyd Holsclaw here. Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources. Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).

Drew Baker and Tina Bruner engage in a refreshing conversation with Dr. Chuck DeGroat on the topics of narcissism and wholeheartedness in church leadership. When Narcissism Comes to Church (Amazon) - https://a.co/d/9Cyllzh Wholeheartedness (Amazon) - https://a.co/d/1pemavc CGU creates spaces for Christians to gather so that we might recognize Jesus in one another. If you are blessed by this ministry please consider tax-deductible monthly donation. Please donate at https://www.commongroundsunity.org/donate. Please check out commongroundsunity.org to learn more about CGU, how to subscribe to the newsletter, join the Facebook group, or find the YouTube Channel. Check out the gatherings page, where you can connect with other unity-minded Christians in your area. If you cannot find a gathering in your area, we can help you start one. It's not difficult or time-consuming, and we will help you out along the way. It really does, simply, start with a cup of coffee. If you want to volunteer or ask questions, please email John at john@commongroundsunity.org. Until next time, God bless, and remember, “Unity Starts With A Cup of Coffee.” The Common Grounds Unity theme music for our intro and exit for Season 3 is Cody Martin's "Forever with You." Download and permission to use from Sound Stripe.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson talk about the importance of relationship in ministry leadership. They discuss how leaders can fall into the trap of narcissism when they lack deep relationships, leading to a sense of loneliness that they try to fill with success or power. They also explore how relationship is at the heart of adaptive leadership, as leaders must accompany people through change and transformation. The conversation emphasizes the need for healthy relationships both on an individual level and within larger systems, as they are crucial for healing brokenness and nourishing community.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership."“The story of God is the story of relationship. From the very beginning, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit create human beings in and for relationship. And I think our brokenness is brokenness in and around relationship."Ep. 82 is a conversation inspired by Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.Download the FREE course, Becoming Leaders of Shalom.

Too often narcissism seems to thrive in our churches as well as in some Christian homes. Navigating out of the pain and dysfunction involved is hard. And Chuck DeGroat has been helping churches, individuals, couples, and church systems address these issues for over 20 years. On this episode Dr. Carol talks with Chuck DeGroat about some of the deeper personal and church system factors that can lead to narcissism, and what's required to find healing both personally and in the church. If you've been harmed by narcissistic abuse you will find this insightful and healing. Connect with Chuck DeGroat on his website, Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. Find Chuck's book When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse    Check out Dr. Carol's articles: - Is My Marriage Toxic? - Good or Not-so-Good Reasons to Leave Your Church Need some personal help? Consider coaching with Dr. Carol. 

Chuck DeGroat (professor, therapist, author) sits down with Sharon Hodde Miller to talk about how unhealed trauma can cause future leadership challenges and narcissism, practical ways pastors and church leaders can move towards healing from their past and how to lead confidently without feeling overly inhibited by the fear of being a narcissist.Check out Chuck's latest book When Narcissism Comes to Church. Sign up for the Resilient Pastor roundtables this Fall 2023.Oct 4- Charlotte, NCOct 26- Chicago, ILNov 16- Orange County, CAWatch this episode on Youtube: Barna GroupWant to learn more about the Resilient Pastor initiative? Home PagePodcastPartner LinksBrotherhood Mutual: Learn more about the services that Brotherhood Mutual offers at BrotherhoodMutual.com.RightNow Media: Visit rightnowmedia.org to find out how RightNow Media can serve your church.

Guest Bios Show Transcript In 2020, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor, Patrick Garcia, was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her church. Yet now, Moriah realizes she was the victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. And since Garcia has returned to preaching—and was recently featured in an article as a repentant and reformed pastor—Moriah is speaking out. In this exclusive podcast interview, Moriah and her husband, Jack, speak publicly for the first time since Patrick Garcia resigned from The Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At the time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship, both physically and emotionally.” And he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. Garcia said recently that he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And, with the backing of mentoring pastor Bob Russell—pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in the U.S.—Garcia is starting to minister again. This comes as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia groomed and abused her, using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. And, in this podcast, Moriah and her husband, Jack, explain why they don't think Garcia should ever be allowed back into ministry. This podcast includes an interview with a pastor who served under Garcia at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served until 2018, when he was fired. The Crossroads pastor says Garcia wasn't fired for mere “philosophical differences,” as previously announced, but for profound character issues. Also offering perspective is Jim Burgen, lead pastor of Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. Like Pastor Russell, Jim is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. Is Garcia a restored pastor, whose gifts shouldn't be withheld from the church? Or, is he a predator, who continues to deceive and manipulate, and shouldn't be allowed in ministry again? Multiple voices engage with these questions and provide understanding on adult clergy sexual abuse. Guests Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. You can connect with them at jackandmoriahsmothers@gmail.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, JIM BURGEN, PAUL LINGE JULIE ROYS  0:00 For a year, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor Patrick Garcia was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her congregation. But Moriah says she now believes she was a victim of clergy sexual abuse. And now that Garcia is returning the ministry, she's speaking out in this exclusive podcast. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this episode is Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. Moriah has not spoken publicly since 2020 when Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At that time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship both physically and emotionally.” He added, no one is to blame for this repeated wicked behavior but me and he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Now almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. In a Christian Post article last month, Garcia says he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And now with the help of mentoring Pastor Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in the country, Garcia is starting to minister again. He's also speaking out claiming the relationship he had with the other woman was an emotional affair, but the church forced him to say it was physical. He also claims the church didn't know how to handle his struggle with anxiety and depression, contributing to what happened. All this has come as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia isn't telling the truth. She says Garcia groomed and abused her using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. She also says she's reached out to Russell and leaders at the Hills, trying to get them to acknowledge the abuse, but they've refused. On this podcast, you'll hear her story. You'll also hear from a pastor at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served from 2016 to 2018. That's when he was fired for alleged philosophical differences. And you'll hear from a pastor who like Bob Russell, is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. You won't hear from Patrick Garcia. We reached out to him to hear his side of the story. He responded via email saying and I quote, “enough has been said about that part of my story. I'm in the season of accepting the Lord's forgiveness and moving on.” We'll get to this important podcast in a moment. But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. 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Well, joining me now is Moriah Smothers, who is speaking publicly for the first time about what she claims was clergy sexual abuse by Patrick Garcia, former pastor of the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. Also joining her is her husband Jack Smothers, who has stood by Moriah throughout the turmoil and devastation of the past several years. So Jack, and Moriah, thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know is just a really painful and difficult situation. MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:11 Thank you for having us Julie. JACK SMOTHERS  04:12 Thank you, Julie. JULIE ROYS  04:14 So as I mentioned in the open, Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in 2020, confessing to what the media called an affair. In the past three years you haven't said anything publicly about what happened. And now you are speaking publicly for the first time. So what led you to want to speak out now about this situation? MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:37 Julie, Jack and I have never wanted to, felt the need or the call to be public about any of this. Our heart was basically to disappear and heal up, figure out what happened, why it happened. And we have taken a few opportunities these past three years to for some educational reasons with some local church leaders, but really, we were very happy healing up in private on our own with some supporters as well. The reason that we're talking to you now is because of the Christian Post article that was recently released. We had no prior knowledge of that article, completely caught off guard by it. But after we both read it, we were deeply troubled by the fact that there was no mention of adult clergy sexual abuse in that write up. And even then I still didn't feel the need to say anything different than Patrick Garcia's story. But what really pushed us to reach out and say something and be public for the first time is I was so devastated and insulted for the survivor community, for other women that are your friends, and in a support group with now. I just felt the article was deeply disrespectful and tone death of everything happening in the evangelical church, between Ravi Zacharias and Hillsong, and the SBC, the Christian Post can do better and should do better. And so I felt like, I didn't want this opportunity. Jack didn't want this opportunity. But here it is. And we're really here to tell our story for survivors, and hopefully, for church leaders to know better and do better. JULIE ROYS  06:12 And so Leo Blair, who wrote that article. I know, Leo, he's a colleague, someone that I've talked to on numerous occasions, and has been helpful to me in stories. And he's done some excellent work. But in this case, sounds like he did not attempt to reach out to you, correct? MORIAH SMOTHERS  06:29 No, there was no attempt at all. Nobody involved in that story reached out to us or notified us at all. We were very surprised by it. JULIE ROYS  06:36 Okay. And I think he did reach out to the Hills' elders who did not respond to him. I guess they could have put him in touch with you. But that didn't happen. And I'm not sure that that was asked for even but a very regrettable situation. And so I'm glad that you're going to be able to tell your side of the story. Let's back up to when both of you met Patrick Garcia. As I understand, both of you were volunteers at Crossroads Christian Church in Evansville, Indiana. And that's where Patrick pastored from roughly 2016 to 2018. Would you describe your relationship with Patrick at the time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  07:16 Yeah, sure. Basically, Julie, there was no relationship. We started attending that church when Ken Idleman was pastoring it. We had a lot of respect for his preaching and teaching. And it would be classified technically, as a mega church; it was very large. We were serving and attending but the pastoral transition did happen while we were there, but there was no relationship of any sort. Our children are about the same age. So we might have walked past each other in a hallway but no kind of communication, no, no relationship of any sort, except he was the pastor. And that was it. JULIE ROYS  07:49 Okay, and I'm guessing you had impressions of him, though. He was your pastor. Jack, was there ever did you have any conversations with him at this point, or he was just the man up on stage/ JACK SMOTHERS  08:02 We had passing conversations. And I do remember, one time at Crossroads when Patrick was still a pastor there. I did say to Moriah, I have a bad feeling about him. I didn't have any evidence of anything, I just got a bad impression and asked her to keep her distance from it. That was the extent of our interactions. JULIE ROYS  08:23 So then, in 2020, Crossroads fired Patrick Garcia, and another Pastor Rick Kyle, over in this is what the statement said, at least initially was philosophical differences. That was the reason given. I've also spoken with Paul Linge who was and still is a pastor at Crossroads. And we'll get his take in a minute about what really was happening behind the scenes. But from your vantage point at the time, what did you think had happened and why Patrick Garcia was being fired by the church? 08:25 At that point in time, we were just congregation members very far removed from that inner circle with any sort of connection to Patrick or the elders. And I think that's an interesting question. It's something that churches should really consider deeply because for your average congregant, especially in a megachurch, that pastor, that teaching individual is going to be the person who your congregants feel more connected to. And we had a personal relationship, a friendship with another pastor by the name of Dave Bowersox, he was a friend. We love him and his family and he chose to resign from the church as a result of all that. And that, at the time, spoke volumes to us and we trusted him we trusted his friendship and I chose to side with them in moving to the Hills, which at that point in time, Patrick was not a part of, it had nothing to do with Patrick moving to the Hills. He didn't come on to staff  at the Hills until later on. But at that point in time, it was really because of our friendship with Dave. JULIE ROYS  10:04 Was there a narrative though? That was because I know that this cause major turmoil. In fact, it spawned, I know, an article in Christian Post back then, because I went back and read a lot of these articles. I wasn't aware of it at the time. I wasn't covering this sort of news, or I think my nose was probably in other stories at the time. But it sounds like it caused a lot of turmoil at Crossroads, several pastors resigned when Patrick was fired, there was a petition circulating. This was a major deal. And I'm guessing there had to have been trying to figure out which side is telling the truth, am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  10:40 Yeah, there was definitely it was highly contentious. The narrative I remember hearing, believing, understanding was that the elders wanted to lead in a more traditional way. And that the pastors that were being fired and or resigned and left wanted to be more progressive. And so there was truly what we believe the statement about philosophical differences in leadership. And again, at the time, we also believe that maybe Crossroads was wanting to be a bit more of a country club feel, then really reaching out to the needy, the vulnerable. So that was the narrative that was being put out there for people that were asking questions. That's what i remember. JACK SMOTHERS  11:22 You don't realize how gullible you are until after the fact until hindsight is available. But there was evidence that we could have looked into and chose not to, because of those connections and those relationships that we had those trusted relationships. And so those just exerted a profound influence over us. And then we regret that. JULIE ROYS  11:43 As I mentioned, I talked to Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, but he served as executive pastor under Patrick Garcia. And this is what he told me about why Patrick was fired. PAUL LINGE  11:58 There were some fundamental character fissures in the makeup of his heart, his mind, his belief system, and those would leak out on a fairly regular basis. And while I never saw him act, to my knowledge, inappropriately toward a female, okay, that's too much that's inappropriate, that's wrong. But he would laugh at it just crude things. And unless they like for nudity, not that I saw but like pictures of like a shadow of It's a little embarrassing to talk about, shadows of a man's penis, and, and this was like early on, and he would laugh about it. And I was like, yikes, okay, something is a little off here. And I would confront him on it. And sometimes he would receive it. But it was dismissive as well. Basically, he was unteachable, he was young, he was still in his late 20s. I saw the way that he would posture himself in elder meetings, he was unteachable, he would not listen to men who are leaders in their areas of business and industry and are men of God. He had his own his official group of Crossroads elders that he was technically under the authority of, but he had his own private board outside of that. It was composed of guys who would tell him what he wanted to hear. And some of these are the Bob Russell's, and others, some of whom have had what appears to be great success in ministry. But they didn't have the nuts and bolts of the character of Patrick Garcia. And so I think it could be said that he came with what looked like a good pedigree; graduate of Cincinnati Christian University, the son in law of Dave Stone, who at that time was the lead pastor at Southeast Christian Church. And so it looked like good pedigree, but I don't know that the proper due diligence was done in tossing him the keys, so to speak, of Crossroads Christian Church. It felt like the keys were tossed to a reckless teenager rather than a mature man of God, who had in mind things of God. JULIE ROYS  14:02 That's Crossroads Pastor Paul Linge, expressing a perspective that it sounds like neither, you know, you, Jack or Moriah had at the time. I'm just curious, as you listen to that, what kind of thoughts do you have and feelings about what you just heard? JACK SMOTHERS  14:20 Gosh, it's hard to go back in time and put yourself in that place. Of all the information that we were ignorant of. What we know now is Paul Linge is a man of God like that guy that is truly the real deal. He is a committed Christian and I don't have insider information because I was not a member of the elder board. But I am not surprised by anything. Any comment that he made in that clip. MORIAH SMOTHERS  14:46 There was a lot too. Jack and I kind of were looking at each other like we've heard this before. There was a lot of weight put on Patrick's pedigree, and the people that he had surrounding him in ministry support. And again we didn't know, but we thought that must mean something because it was consistently put out there. A phrase we heard a lot was ‘he comes from good stock'. I bet we've heard that hundreds of times. And knowing now that he was going a lot on reputation, and I think we've heard a lot for different organizations. But it seems like we're looking at charisma more than character is something I've heard in other churches. And yeah, nothing Paul said was surprising to us knowing what we know now. But, Julie, you're correct. We did not have any of that information, when this split was happening. And we were trying to make a decision; we didn't know. JACK SMOTHERS  15:38 And I think that's important for churches to keep in mind when they are, I think Crossroads did as good as they possibly could have with handling that situation. But as a congregant, I think we probably needed more information to truly assess their rationale, their justification for letting Patrick go, because we essentially put ourselves into a dangerous situation. JULIE ROYS  16:04 Well, it does sound like some of the elders did try to speak up and they were pretty strongly censored by people for doing that. So I know it can be a very difficult situation. And I've often said when I'm reporting, it's like saying something bad about somebody's grandmother. Like, it may be true, but people just don't want to hear it. They want to believe what they want to believe. And it can be a very difficult situation. But as you guys mentioned, Paul Linge mentioned one of the difficulties that Crossroads had was dealing with these outside advisors. And like you said, this stock that he came from, he had this close relationship with Bob Russell, retired pastor of Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, one of the biggest churches in the country, very influential church. At the time, Patrick was also married to the daughter of Dave Stone, who was the pastor of Southeast Christian Church at the time, and Patrick, and Dave Stone's daughter has since divorced, but at the time again, he was Dave Stone's son-in-law. I reached out to Bob Russell for comments about the role that he's been playing in Patrick's life, as well as the role that he was playing at the time. He did not respond to me. However, one of Patrick's other advisors is Jim Burgen, and he's the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado. And Jim was kind enough to grant me an interview. And here's what Jim said, regarding his understanding, at the time of why Crossroads fired Patrick. JIM BURGEN  17:31 My understanding is that he was trying to be very transparent, trying to be very real and authentic, admitting that he wasn't perfect and admitting he dealt with depression, things like that. And I do remember him telling me that the I don't want to be a gossip because I wasn't there, alright? So I know that Patrick was telling me that they didn't really want that image of their pastor. They wanted their pastor to be somebody who, because he had faith, and because he had the word of God, these things weren't really problems in their life anymore. They want him to stand on a pedestal and be an example, that you can overcome anything, which is a lot of pressure, but it also is, it's just not integrity. And so I read the same stuff you've read, but I've heard from Patrick, they didn't want that. They didn't want that. And then they parted ways over the I don't believe they parted ways over one thing, though, like, is just the overall, you have a different philosophy of ministry than we do. JULIE ROYS  18:28 So like then, or since you haven't really talked to any of the leaders at Crossroads? JIM BURGEN  18:34 No, not once. Or Hills. I've not talked to any of those leadership. JULIE ROYS  18:39 Again, that's pastor Jim Bergen who served as an advisor, I think he still is a mentor to Patrick. I like Jim, he was very gracious to grant me an interview. And we talked a long time. But I have to say when I heard him say that he hasn't talked to the leadership of Crossroads or the Hills, not once, that was concerning to me. Especially I know, he had Patrick come speak at his church in 2019. So this was after Patrick was fired from Crossroads. And it just doesn't seem from my vantage point, that there was respect for the local elders; enough respect to say, hey, what happened? But it seemed more like Patrick was, he's our prodigy. He's our guy. And so if he says this, I'm going with it. And if there's one thing in this story that even we've seen so far, nobody reached out to you to get your side of the story. Nobody reached out to these elders between these advisors to get their side of the story. I'm guessing you're feeling some similar things there. But do you have anything to add that you thought when you heard this from Jim? JACK SMOTHERS  19:50 I don't know if Jim is willfully and intentionally ignorant, or if Jim is confused, perhaps, or maybe I'm wrong, right? But in my opinion, that's the only thing that I can say. His statement about Patrick trying to be very transparent and real and authentic. What Patrick was actually doing is trying to manipulate other people into getting what he wanted. So my reaction to pastor Bergen is, I guess I should have gracious assumptions and say he did not apparently know the real Patrick Garcia. MORIAH SMOTHERS  20:28 My concern with his statement too Julie is, I think, a lot of times when these situations occur, the person where the blame should fall is excellent at isolating individuals so they can control the narrative. And I think that when that happens, it's really easy to spin the story that is in your favor. And so I think it was a real leadership failure to not have broken out of that vacuum, and have talked to other stakeholders like the Hills and Crossroads and other people involved in that. JACK SMOTHERS  21:03 Do you feel that the language he was using, the language that Patrick would use about being so real and authentic was really a way to justify his sin and normalize his behavior? MORIAH SMOTHERS  21:17 Yeah, I think the closest thing I've ever read that accounts for that is that Chuck DeGroat. He wrote When Narcissism Comes to Church. I came across the term I think he's the one who coined it, it could have been someone else, but called fauxnerability. That term exactly represented the culture of the Hills, and the culture that I believe Patrick wanted to create; that I'm going to be very open, vulnerable, transparent, but it's more transactional. And then I'm not really going to live that privately, which was a lot of the interaction he and I had together was horrible. JULIE ROYS  21:52 So within months of Patrick leaving Crossroads, he joined this new church that two former pastors at Crossroads started Dave Bowersox and Darrell Marin. Both of you decided to become part of this new church. What motivated you to do that? JACK SMOTHERS  22:11 Really was our relationship with Dave, we barely knew Darrell. But we were in a small group of Dave and his wife, Sandy, and really trusted them and loved their family a lot. And we also had kids about their kids age and Dave and I had a meeting at the university where Moriah and I are employed. And he mentioned, they were creating an elder board and said, I would be a great fit for that. That never really came to fruition while we were there. They created an advisory team and invited Moriah to be on that. I wasn't invited. We were involved with a discipleship ministry while we were at the Hills. But anyway, our relationship with Dave is what drew us there. JULIE ROYS  22:54 The not having an elder board, and having an advisory board with I'm guessing really had no teeth or accountability. Am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  23:02 That's exactly right. And so this advisory board they created had men and women that were all in with the church. Which I thought at the time, like what a wonderful demonstration like representation of the church. It was made very clear to the board multiple times that there was no accountability that pastors had to us. And we were never to be a decision making body. At the time I was there, it was very much, so we're gonna read you our stats, tell you the good things we're doing and you brag on us. And so it was a Yes-man and woman situation, let's cheer and say, rah. But no, there was no authority with that position. JULIE ROYS  23:41 And I will just say right now, and I do get asked this all the time. But people say like, how can you evaluate a church? And it's step one, look at the elder board. Are they truly independent or are they beholden to the pastor in some way? Are they staff members of the church? In other words, is the pastor their boss, so of course they're not going to buck him? Are they family members? This is another one that nepotism that runs in these. All of these things need to be looked at but what can they really do look at the bylaws. Do you have bylaws? If you do have bylaws, how is a pastor senior pastor going to be removed? Is that spelled out in your bylaws? Finances – do you know how much your senior pastor makes? And I don't care if you're at a small church or a large church, whatever. To me the fact that religious nonprofits and churches don't have to reveal what their top wage earners make, but secular nonprofits do, to me is appalling. Why should the church be less accountable to the people that give it money than the world right? than the secular nonprofits? It's these kinds of red flags that before I got into doing what I do today, I wouldn't have thought of either so I don't fault people for it. But I think we're in a season or a time in the church right now that's really somewhat of a crisis, with scandal after scandal coming out. And if people, if the church individuals, congregants, if we don't wise up, we're never going to see a change, because it's not going to come from the top, it's going to come from the bottom up. So, Moriah, it's my understanding that about a year later, so it was about October 2018, that you began on the advisory board at the Hills church. But then Patrick started communicating with you on an individual basis. And this is what you would say, is the early stages of what you believe is grooming you. Would you describe why you believe that this was a grooming situation and the beginning of abuse? MORIAH SMOTHERS  25:48 Before I get into that, Julia, and I will, is that one of the things that was revealing in the Christian Post article is that Patrick actually told on himself and said that he'd had a crush on me for three years. We had no interaction, we didn't know each other and knowing what I know now, I absolutely believe that I was targeted well in advance. I think he had been taking notes on me the times we had interacted. Jack and I lead a Bible study group with the pastors for a new curriculum, there were some things from that were a little unusual, but I just didn't think much of. So that communication initially, I would have considered very innocuous. It was really about the ministry Jack and I were helping run and so a lot of those emails early on, like I would have to discuss with Jack and things like that. But eventually, they turned into more texting, still some emails, but more texting. And I didn't loop Jack in on those, which was a huge error on my part. But it really a lot of it was just like joking and silly things that if someone had picked up my phone and read, they would have thought, that's odd, her husband sat on a bit, it wouldn't have been anything. So it wouldn't have been an obvious red flag. And so I let a lot of that go, even though I'm sure I had a gut check at the time, but it's my pastor, like, I've always had healthy, safe relationships with my pastor. So I didn't think anything about it. it fairly quickly turned into joking though. His demeanor is very polling. He described it like a very silly kind of teenager, he just joking. The first thing that really caught my attention, though, was like, that doesn't seem quite normal is he sent a gift to my work. And so he put a different name on it a pseudonym. And it was an inside joke about a logo from Flat Irons. I made the joke our son was into Pokémon, and I asked him, I said, Well, Patrick, you're wearing a Pokémon shirt. Matt, our son would love bat, like I didn't know you were a fan. And so he sent this to my office. And then that was the first time it caught my attention, texting, communication. And honestly, a lot of times it was about church. And so it was intermixed between what was happening at church and fake life, and then personal and personal questions and things like that. I didn't have any of this language then. But all of this was really heavily infused with love bombing, which I know now I didn't know at the time that just this excessive praise, this endearment that, honestly, it really ingratiates someone with you, you feel so valued and seen. But the intention there is for manipulative purposes. And so I really believed a lot of that. The more we communicated, the more he sought out my opinion on church issues. And I did I just felt flattered that he thought my perspective was valuable in that context, because I've never, that's never happened before within that kind of inner circle church group. Also, the thing that very quickly happened is he started depending on me for things. He would just often say, like how overwhelming his work is, and he's so far behind, and he's shepherding and writing sermons and doing all these things, and I'm a former Special Ed teacher, like teachers are helpers by nature. It's what we do. It's what we're good at. And so I thought, like, oh, my gosh, I have the skill set, I can help you out. Do you need me to proofread something? Pretty quickly, he said, You just take over doing all my emails for work. And I thought, well, I can respond to some of them, I guess, because it's what my pastor needed. And so that's really where it started. It clearly escalated into much worse, but I would say those are some of the initial grooming stages is the joking silly conversations, personal questions, and then it started creating that need of I need you to help me be successful in ministry. The other piece that I would feel maybe goes between if we're looking at severity or intensity of grooming, this one kind of straddles the line is he very quickly started sharing personal information with me about himself and about his colleagues and about the church. He told me some things about Crossroads. I mean, just things that I had no business knowing as a congregant, confidential information that he never should have shared with me about himself and others. And so at the time, I was giving advice and input, but I felt flattered that he wanted to share that with me as well. JULIE ROYS  30:14 And I'm sure as you know, now, your story is not an isolated incident. This is a pattern that plays out over and over again. And at least from sitting in my seat, the one characteristic that I see that makes people vulnerable is it's the ones that are really sincere, and helper type people. And it's so awful because it's actually such a virtuous thing that the victim possesses as a character quality that predators seem to be able to just sniff out and just be able to exploit. And I know that's how you feel, and what you feel Patrick did to you. When did you first realize, Oh, my goodness, this is a dangerous relationship? MORIAH SMOTHERS  30:59 Yeah, it was fairly early on, really. I don't know that I would have said dangerous, but I recognize that I was looking forward to him communicating with me. And so it was even small, but I thought, Man, that's not healthy. And I think a common belief is that anyone who is targeted , they're struggling in their marriage. Jack and I have a wonderful marriage. We did before I was groomed we were doing well during and praise the Lord, we have a wonderful marriage now. And so I'd like to debunk that, that it's only broken people or broken marriages that are targeted, because that's not true. But it was pretty early on, I realized I'm looking forward to him texting, and that was messed up. And this is the other spot that man, if I could do anything and go back, this is the spot I would go back and redo this is I thought I could handle it. Because I really again believed that my pastor would honor his fiduciary duty of putting me and my family's best interest above his own. And so I said, Hey, I need to talk to you about something, let's FaceTime. And so we hopped on a FaceTime. And I tell him, I said, This is so humiliating, I'm humiliated, and I know you're going to be embarrassed. But I'm looking forward to you contacting me, I think I'm attracted to you. And so we need to cut communication. And he reported this in the Christian Post very differently than what had happened. I think he said, I hooked him. But what really happened is that I asked him, I said, this is again, I didn't understand, I thought it was my fault. I said, we need to stop all communication totally like this has to be done and over. And he said your family is too important to our church, to the ministry. I love your family, we need to be in contact still. So do you trust me to pray about it? Absolutely. I'll trust my pastor at that time to pray about it for me. And I said, Sure, I understand that. I didn't want to lose our community. And that I trusted him to pray about it. And Julie the part I would go back and do is that was my moment in time to tell Jack, but I did not tell Jack about what was going on. Because Jack is a man of character and integrity, we would have been out of that church so fast. I didn't want to lose our people in our community group. And what I didn't realize is Patrick came back and I basically just opened the doors for full on grooming and abuse. And he said, Moriah, you know, I never do this. I never say this when I preach from the stage. But God has told me that if we stay above reproach, then he wants us to be together. And it was a strong implication of like, for ministry purposes. And I was floored by that. But Jack and I are happily married and we're doing great. I had no desire to be out of my marriage ever. And so I was really confused by that. But he was very convincing that this was a word from the Lord. So things accelerated from there in a really tragic way. JULIE ROYS  34:03 And this is spiritual abuse 101. It doesn't get much more blatant than God told me. And this should be a red flag for anyone. But again, we're not trained in how to identify these red flags. But when somebody says God told me, I mean, how do you argue with that, right? I mean, it's just really manipulative language that somebody would use. MORIAH SMOTHERS  34:28 He's my pastor, I trusted pastors, healthy relationships. My dad was a pastor, like, I had no reason to think there would be any kind of predatory behavior. Like none at the time. I clearly know better now, but. JULIE ROYS  34:43 So about this time is when the relationship progressed to you and Patrick meeting in public parking lots, which is kind of a next step. Would you describe the frequency of these meetings and the nature of them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  35:02 So I remember the first one he asked to me. So we could figure out this is a common phrase of how to manage the tension of being in communication, but it not being romantic. That was the first time we met. I vividly remember how sweaty my hands were. I knew I shouldn't be in this situation. But I also, truthfully, I still trusted him that, okay, if I meet with him, then we can figure out a way for this to be over. That didn't happen. And so we did on and off continue to meet. I would say it was, I honestly don't remember a number. I would say maybe once every couple weeks or so. It was almost always surrounding the situation of I tried to end it, he would say, let me figure this out, figure out a plan so you don't have to leave the church. And then let's meet as our last time. And so when we would meet honestly, like, we talk about church, we would talk about our personal lives. It was a lot about how he was struggling just being a pastor managing everything difficult relationships. I felt like I was his counselor most of the time, it was a lot of that. Sadly, it did progress. The abuse never became fully sexual, but there was hand holding and hugging things of that nature that happened. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  36:23 And he said, in the Christian Post article that at one point, you tried to kiss him, but he put the brakes on. True? Not true? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:32 I don't remember that happening. There was embracing that happened. So I could see him thinking that's where it was going. JULIE ROYS  36:40 So you wrote in your timeline that you sent me that during this period, you felt like, quote, an addict living two lives. Would you explain that? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:49 So the timeline I sent you I wrote in 2020, when things were very fresh. I had no language surrounding abuse, trauma, ACSA. And so that feeling was still is still correct of how I felt. What I know now, though, is what that is was trauma- bonding. That happens in a cycle of abuse of feeling like very affirmed, valued the love bombing, and then trying to end it. And it's like this very toxic cycle. And so that's what it was, is I, frankly, I hated who I was becoming. I love being a wife and a mom, and I love my job. So there were so many beautiful parts of my life. I loved the church I was serving, we were super engaged. So I felt like there were all these beautiful parts of my life. And then there was this really toxic, ugly thing that I didn't know how to get out of. Even as a grown woman educated, I didn't know how to get out of this. And so that's where I just felt so painfully torn. Because at this point, I knew things were bad. Like I knew they were very bad, because we were communicating every single day, multiple times a day, even when I would end the relationship, he would still use phrases from the stage to communicate with me that were like inside praises. He'd post on social media photos, but he put little photos like emojis in the corner that were messages to me, and the communication was all the time. So I now know it was trauma bonding, but the truth is, at the time, I saw no way out without imploding our life. And so I stayed in it, because I didn't know how not to. JULIE ROYS  38:30 And it's interesting. And I hear this all the time, the minimizing of the devastation that a relationship that didn't go there was no sexual intercourse, but had obviously a sexual component to it had this kind of grooming involved in this kind of trauma-bonding, love-bonding, I mean, all of these things, the devastation is massive, isn't it? MORIAH SMOTHERS  39:00 Yeah. And I think what's really hard to account for and if I'm just being really honest, I don't expect for anyone who hasn't experienced this or walked with someone to understand this. But physically, what happened was minimal compared to the emotional and the spiritual wreckage of feeling like your pastor should be doing the right thing, and he's not. I would say I ended this relationship. I use that term very loosely, it was abuse, but I ended it two or three times every single month. It was ongoing. That was most of our conversations with me trying to figure out how to get out of this. And there was a lot of communication in between as well but yeah, I think what's not accounted for when these situations come out, is just the emotional spiritual psychological damage that's left in its wake and it's horrific. JULIE ROYS  39:57 And Jack during this whole time, are you seeing red flags or things that are making you go, what's going on? Or was this pretty much hidden from your sight? JACK SMOTHERS  40:06 I had no evidence if that's what you mean. But what I did see was Moriah's natural demeanor is very light hearted, very life giving just a joy to be around. And that was stolen. She became darker she became her humor became vulgar, her language in terms of profanity that started to occur. And so I remember asking her one time, like, hey, something is changing about you, and I don't know what it is. Is it something that's wrong with our relationship? Or what can I do to get us back on track? But something is off, and I don't know what it is. And she couldn't answer because she was in a cycle of abuse at the time. MORIAH SMOTHERS  40:51 And Julie, so horribly as well that I would sometimes bring this home to Jack. Like I was so torn up about what was happening privately that I would put that on our marriage and say, but if you treated me like this, when it had nothing to do with Jack. Towards the end, I even started saying, let's move, let's apply for jobs, let's go somewhere else, because I thought that's my only way out of this. And so was pushing so hard to escape, but I made life pretty hard for Jack for a while, because I was not me anymore. JULIE ROYS  41:24 Moriah, eventually, your relationship with Patrick included sexting. In fact, that was the title of the Christian Post article, basically, How Sexting Brought This Pastor Down. Would you describe the nature, the frequency, who initiated the sexting? How did that happen? MORIAH SMOTHERS  41:46 But that also had a grooming process to it. I've never been a selfie person, I think I'm just old enough that I missed that kind of way. Patrick would send dozens of photos a day. And so I think there was a grooming process with getting me to that place. But the sexting did occur, it is incredibly painful to talk about still. I don't remember the frequency, it wasn't truthfully, many times what I would consider overt sexting. But the ongoing dialogue for us was highly flirtatious and inappropriate. What I would say was over happened, I don't know probably less than 10 times, and it was always followed by like, guilt, shame, that can't happen again. And then we were back there. JULIE ROYS  42:33 All of this did remain secret until May of 2020. And that's when this police report came to the attention of pastors at the Hills church. How was there a police report that made this apparent to them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  42:47 I honestly I still don't have all the information. Because when everything did eventually come out, we were very much so left in the dark. So I don't fully understand all the details to this. But my knowledge, what I do know is that there was a time we were meeting in a public parking lot. We'd met there several times, the people working in that location had noticed it. And so after so many times of meeting there they called the police to check because they thought it was odd that two cars were parked there. I think we were there after hours even. And so a policeman came out just said, Hey, what's going on? Nothing was going on. And so, it wasn't any kind of like, charges or anything. It was just documentation that we had been there. And so I don't know the process of how that actually got to the Hills, but it did. Once that happened, I didn't know anything about that. I think we were on vacation as a family. And what I've been told not being involved in that is that Dave and Daryl, the other pastors, met with Patrick, confronted him with what was in the police report, which wasn't much information, just that we'd met there several times, and it was documented. Patrick spun a story that there was nothing going on, that he and I had only met there once. And Jack and I haven't seen this report. So we're not really sure what's in it. That he said we had only met there once, and that we were handing off a binder or a book or something. And so he had been there before, but I hadn't. And so very shortly after that, Patrick was also instructed not to contact me because they wanted to verify his story. Patrick got in contact with me immediately said this is exactly what happened. I remember he said, I took a bullet for us. And so you're gonna get called into a meeting with Dave and an elder, and this is what you need to say to backup my story. And so I knew what was going on. We got home from our vacation. Dave called and asked me to a meeting, and I asked if Jack could go with me, and he said no, he cannot. And so I think again, I was still I was not in a good place mentally and emotionally. I think I was hoping that if Jack was there, it would come out and maybe I could be free from this, but Jack wasn't allowed there. And so I remember sitting in the parking lot of where I was going to meet the pastor and the elder. And Patrick called me and he said, these are the exact lies I told. If you want to save your family, my family, the church, and also they were fundraising for a new building at the time. And that money he indicated to me was associated with him, because he had raised those funds. He said, If you want to save all these things,  then you need to backup my story. And I consented, or I agreed to backup his story. And so I think in the Christian Post article, it read very much so like I eagerly and enthusiastically agreed to lie. But I felt very much if I'm gonna lose my family and my church, then I'll lie. And so I did lie. I sat down with the pastor and the elder. They very much so wanted to hear the version of the situation, I told them, so I didn't have to lie much, because they wanted to believe it. And so I did lie in that situation. JULIE ROYS  46:03 And did you volunteer to step down from the advisory board at this time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:08 I did. Yeah, that was the primary way Patrick had access to me just individually without Jack around. Otherwise, Jack and I did ministry together, we were pretty much always together. So I said, I'm happy to step down from that. I guess that's appropriate. And they didn't want to raise any red flags about why I was stepping down. So they told me no, please don't do that. JULIE ROYS  46:28 Wow. And you secretly were trying to get out. MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:33 I was trying to get out in a lot of ways. But except being fully truthful with Jack, which would have got me out. JULIE ROYS  46:42 So Jack, what was your response when you heard the rendition of the story that Moriah told you? JACK SMOTHERS  46:50 The story that I received was, she made a silly mistake and met Patrick in a parking lot to receive a binder about church. Sounds pretty innocent when you are in a loving relationship with someone who has, over a long period of time, established a firm foundation of trust, you're raised in a family where people treat you in a trustworthy way. It builds a lot of gullibility in a way and so I didn't really second guess it. I just said, Oh, man, that was silly. Let's just learn from it and move on. And in retrospect, that was maybe not the most loving thing to do. The most loving thing to do would have been to ask more questions, if I felt uneasy about it. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  47:33 Yeah. It's tough, though. You don't want to be the jealous husband, who doesn't believe. It's a very difficult situation to be in. At this point, Moriah, you asked Patrick to basically get some outside help, right? Like, I mean, you knew he had this outside Advisory Council board, whatever you want to call it, mentors that he looked up to. How did he respond when you asked him to get this help? MORIAH SMOTHERS  48:02 Yeah. So all the previous times I'd ended it, it was really just between the two of us and I just want it to be done. But this time, I said, clearly, I felt like this was, again, I was spiritually very twisted. But I feel like this is God telling us like this has to be done. This was our chance to end it. And he didn't feel like he could end it, that he needed me. And so I asked him to just, I begged him, I'd said, like, please just talk to somebody tell somebody what is going on. Because this entire time, I had some real questions like even like I said, this an affair, isn't it? Nice to no, because it's not physical like that it's not. And I asked him, I said, please just talk to somebody get their input. And so he told me, he did talk to a couple people. One of them was a former colleague and friend that was in his previous church in Texas. And then also he communicated that he talked to Jim Burgen about it. I didn't know either of these people at all. But he told me that he was advised by both of them to not share any of this information with people at the Hills, the other pastors, they just didn't need to know the details, and it would cause a difficult situation. And so I thought he had been advised by wise counselors, which is what I asked him to do. JULIE ROYS  49:19 And of course, you have no way of knowing whether that actually happened or not. But I did reach out to Jim Burgen, and asked him specifically about this, about whether or not he ever encouraged Patrick not to confess the details of his relationship with you to the church. And this is what Jim Burger said. JIM BURGEN  49:37 I knew they were having struggles. I didn't know he was meeting in cars with women. Not at all. And if I had known that, I would have absolutely done the opposite of what you're hearing; cover it up, don't disclose. It would have been the opposite of that is you've got to cut this relationship. You need to go to Savannah, you need to go to your leaders. I was fresh off the heels of sabbatical. I was on a sabbatical for six months at the end of 2019, dealing just with a lot of exhaustion. So at that point, I would have been really raw and open because I was in such a tremendous, intimate relationship with my elders. They knew the inside out of my heart. I would have pointed in that direction too. Whether he had that or not, I don't know. But that's what my advice would have been. I never, never ever in a million years would say, cover this up, keep it a secret, don't give details because basically what I've been counseling this keep going just don't get caught, which would be absolutely the opposite of what I would ever have counseled anybody. JULIE ROYS  50:36 Again, Jim Burgen weighing in on his perspective of what happened. It didn't take a long time after this whole police report surfaced for the truth to come out. So apparently, the church sends Patrick off on, I'm sorry, this study break. I've seen so many study breaks. For pastors, they get caught with things like this, you wish they would just be upfront with what's going on. But instead, it's covered up from the church. And I guess he needs to do more study about something. But during that study break what was happening between the two of you? MORIAH SMOTHERS  51:15 Yeah, so during the study break, keep in mind, I was still on the advisory board, because they hadn't taken me off. This was also not disclosed to the advisory board at all about what was really going on, their concerns. We were still in communication. I think there were attempts to slow the communication down, that it was frequent. There was also up until this point, things had been bad. But again, most of our communication was just like silly, everyday things, light hearted. Things got dark after this and really heavy in a way that it hadn't been. There was a lot of like power reversals. And I remember Patrick being very clear that like, I have control of this situation. And he would want me to like verbalize consent at that. There was a situation where some pastor I have no clue who it was, it was just in the news that he had probably an affair, which is the language they use, which would have been abuse. And I said something to Patrick about it. And I said, “Hey, I read this story. Did you read that?” He had. And I said, “Doesn't that sound like what's happening here?” And he like, forced me to verbally agree that's not what's happening here. This is consensual, and so it just got really heavy. He also started pushing to blame. He was like, let's reassess when we're gonna be together. And I mean, I remember the clearest time again, only in hindsight of being gaslit was, I was just feeling very convicted. And I said something like Patrick, I'm not leaving Jack, I have no desire to end my marriage. I'm not doing that. And he somehow flipped it around, and I ended up apologizing to him, that I would even think he might ask me to do that. And so just really, really sick, twisted. But the communication was still often. JULIE ROYS  54:07 And how old was he at this point? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:09 So if this was in 2020, he was probably 32 ish? JULIE ROYS  54:13 Thiry-two. It's a lot of responsibility for someone extremely young, really. And he's in his late 20s and pastoring a church of 7000 previous to this. It's just a little bit stunning that someone so young would be given that kind of responsibility. In September 2020, then I'm guessing he comes back from his summer break. And you met in person a few times. Would you describe what happened in those meetings? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:45 Yeah, so all of those were to wrap things up to end things like again, there was this kind of mounting pressure. It just has to be that and frankly, I was starting to be a mess. Like I had been able to keep my life together pretty much. He would actually say, I know this is hard for you. But just let me shoulder the pressure of keeping this together. I was not doing well at that point in time. And so we met in a parking lot. And again, naively thought, like this is the last time, but that was, every time I was nervous and felt like oh my gosh, would have foreseen and it was, it was scary. That was the first time that he scared me, at the way he was behaving, and I actually had the thought, like, I hope I'm able to get out of this car. And it was just, it felt like things were moving really fast. And so again, I was hopeful that maybe that was the last time. But communication just continued, even though there's so many last times that communication continued still. JULIE ROYS  55:46 So the following month, October 2020, Patrick's wife, Savannah, she discovered some of the messages between the two of you the sexting, I'm guessing she saw? MORIAH SMOTHERS  55:57 Yeah. I don't know exactly what was seen. You read those? Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of it was just silliness. But then there were things that absolutely indicated that there was sexting and it was highly inappropriate. JULIE ROYS  56:10 You found out about this from Patrick, right, when Savannah found out what was his demeanor and reaction? MORIAH SMOTHERS  56:19 Well, I knew something was a little wrong. We had been communicating. And Julie, I don't think I mentioned this, but early on through the grooming, it was mainly text, emails, and then it switched through social media platforms. And so he was always very thorough, reminding me like, hey, delete our messages, delete our conversations. And we were communicating with an app Words with Friends. We were playing a game on there, and there's a chat feature. And so we'd been communicating, I gotten distracted with something, and had just left our conversation because something happened quickly. And when I came back, I messaged him again, and there was never a response. And so I knew something seemed different because he always responded. But he didn't that time. And so it was all through the evening. I never got a response. I knew something was going on. I think that was I shared maybe a little bit with you at that time. I've minimized I heavily minimized what was going on to Jack. But I did disclose a little bit to him. And it was sometime in the middle of the night, I got an email from a random email address. But the email address and how it was worded was like a lot of inside jokes between us. And the phrasing was really strange. It didn't the email it was from Patrick. We know now he had all this like technology taken. So I don't know how he did this. But he basically said that Savannah found messages. And then he included a bulleted list to say like, these are the lies we've told remember them and back them up about what it was. But the email sounded like silly, like almost joking. It was not like, devastated. It wasn't angry. It was a very strange message. When I knew that this had been discovered, I freaked out. And so I deleted the email, I never responded and I like permanently deleted it from my Gmail. And the next day, he sent another one from the same email and it was just, sorry, with a crying emoji and I deleted that one as well. I did end up telling Jack eventually that he had sent that. So I did know something was coming. But I didn't know the fallout that was about to happen. JULIE ROYS  58:30 Jack, how did you find out? JACK SMOTHERS  58:32 Moriah disclosed a little bit of what was going on. But really it was Dave Bowersox who called and shared the communication, the sexting conversations that had occurred, and in a PDF document. And so I read through those, and yeah, that's how I found out. Of course I was devastated at the time. But my really, I think God was very gracious over me at that point in time because all I could think about was our kids. Sorry. Two wonderful and amazing children that they deserve a safe home. They deserve to feel protected. And this was an attack on our family. We have a great example in scripture of Christ protects his bride, how Christ dies to himself to protect his family. So that's where we at. Sometimes protecting your family looks like getting on your knees and praying. Sometimes protecting your family looks like asking a lot of questions. listening intently. I was thankful that in our job, so in higher education, we are required to go through training. I believe it's every year, we're required to complete these modules just on what is Title IX, sexual harassment, all these things. There's one thing that stuck out to me. And it was where there's a power imbalance, there's no such thing as consent. And so I thought, okay, professors, student, doctor, patient, Pastor, congregant. These are all similar relationships where there's a direct power imbalance, there could not have been consent, and I'm smashing all this together. This was not all at one time, this was weeks or maybe months of reflecting and trying to absorb the information that we have. It wasn't until probably a year after it all came out that we really understood ACSA and that entire framework. MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:00:48 But Jack was the first person to raise this piece of information, like how is there consent there as your pastor? And some of the contextual things that I'd never recommend this for anybody, but we were quarantined at the time, with COVID. So we couldn't be with anybody. And so we can laugh about it now a little bit, but it was at the time, just heartbreaking. I was so broken and devastated and confused. It looked like I was coming out of a cult. Like there's this like trauma fog that descends. I didn't know what to do. I followed Jack everywhere in our house. I couldn't be away from him. And so he's grieving and mourning, and I'm following him around and we're quarantined and have little children that were trying to – it was a mess. So everything we did was over Zoom about all the disclosures. JULIE ROYS  1:01:41 So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah? MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:01:45 I don't want to over exaggerate this. And I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was ten times more traumatizing than the abuse. JULIE ROYS  1:02:04 That concludes part one of my interview with Moriah and Jack Smothers, and we're ending on a bit of a cliffhanger. But this is something that I've heard over and over again from victims. The original abuse is horrific, for sure. But it's easier to understand that the church can have one bad apple than to realize that it's not just one bad apple. There's a whole system protecting and managing that one bad apple, often at the expense of the victim. And you'll hear that part of Moriah and Jack's story in part two, and it's such an important story. So I hope you'll be watching for that to release in just a few days. But thank you so much for listening to The Roys Report. And if you've appreciated this podcast and our investigative work, would you please consider giving a gift to support us? As I've said before, we don't have big corporate sponsors or large donors. We have you, the survivors, advocates, allies and church leaders who care about ridding the church of predators and making it a safer place. Also, this month if you give a gift of $30 or more, we'll send you Christy Boulware's book, Nervous Breakthrough; Finding Freedom From Fear and Anxiety in a World That Feeds It. This is such a great resource for anyone struggling with anxiety and panic attacks, or really any mental health issue. So to get the book and support the Roys report, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

On this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the issue of power and the church's love affair with it, which is exceedingly harmful, especially considering our faith's cornerstone, the Suffering Servant. Tod and Markus emphasize the importance of adopting a leadership model that is reflective of Jesus and prioritizes shared leadership. They also highlight the struggle for power and control that often comes with leadership, but Jesus's life and teachings resist the idea of lording over others in a leadership position.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership."There's been this strange collusion and love affair with power that the church has had in general—which is interesting given that our faith is centered on the Crucified One, the Suffering Servant."Ep. 82 is a conversation about Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.TIMESTAMPS:[00:01:31] Leadership is not about lording over others; even Jesus' closest disciples struggled with this temptation.[00:03:12] Leadership should reflect Jesus and not be built on desires for power and control. Bad leaders are the problem and good shepherds are needed.[00:06:27] Text summary: Chuck de Grote comments on the church's love affair with power despite being centered on the suffering servant.Q&A:1. What is the "Suffering Servant" leadership style and what does it require?Answer: The "Suffering Servant" leadership style requires sharing and adaptivity.2. What is the importance of the concept of power in ministry leadership?Answer: The topic of power is one of the most deeply rooted challenges of being human, particularly for those in positions of authority, and it is essential for leaders to take it seriously and see it as a lifelong area for personal growth and development. 3. How does the idea of being like God relate to the desire for power?Answer: The idea of being like God was the first temptation, according to the Genesis story, and the desire for power is rooted in a deep human awareness of vulnerability.4. What is Chuck DeGroat's quote about the church's relationship with power?Answer: Chuck DeGroat notes that the church has a "love affair" with power, which is interesting given that faith is centered on the Suffering Servant.5. What is Jesus' view on lording over others in leadership roles?Answer: Jesus spoke out against the idea of lording over others in leadership roles and emphasized the importance of servant leadership.Learn how to lead your church into ministry that matters. Check out my online course, Engaging God's Mission.

Over the past five years, devastating reports of abuse have surfaced within the institution millions of people trust the most—the Church. How does this happen and what can we do? Boz Tchividjian, Billy Graham's grandson, sits down with Nika Spaulding and Rebecca Carrell to talk about red flags and redemption.To reach Boz Tchividjian, go to to https://bozlawpa.com/To purchase When Narcissism Comes to Church, click here: https://www.amazon.com/When-Narcissism-Comes-Church-Community/dp/0830841598If you enjoy the show, would you please consider rating and reviewing Honestly, Though? Those reviews help others find us in the PodUniverse, and we deeply appreciate the love! Also, you can reach out to us personally to join the conversation on the following platforms:Rebecca Carrell: https://www.rebeccacarrell.com/ ; IG - @RebeccaCarrell ; Twitter: @RebeccaACarrell ; FB - Rebecca Ashbrook CarrellLiz Rodriguez: IG: @lizannrodriguez ; FB - Liz Rodriguez - https://www.facebook.com/liz.rodriguez.92775Nika Spaulding: stjudeoakcliff.org ; IG - @NikaAdidas ; Twitter - @NikaAdidasWe have the world's best producer! Are you interested in podcasting? Do you know someone who is? Taylor Standridge can help with audio engineering, production, editing, show mapping, and coaching. Connect with Taylor at taylorstandridge1@gmail.com or on Twitter: @TBStandridge

In an era of cynicism and cancel culture, how can our local churches provide hope and healing for those who've experienced emotional and spiritual abuse? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Chuck DeGroat, a licensed therapist and spiritual director, who serves as professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary. Chuck has written a number of books, including When Narcissism Comes to Church. Together, Chuck and Jason begin by looking at how narcissism in churches and church leaders has been addressed in recent history, especially the past few years. Then, they explore how the local church can minister to survivors of emotional and spiritual abuse.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Chuck DeGroat on how anxiety can play out for ministry leaders who are increasing in their influence and authority: "As you climb the ladder anxiety grows and with that, you become more self-protective and insulated, and you're more apt in situations like that to bully out of your own anxiety."Chuck DeGroat on shifting from a solitary focus of "getting justice" to working on one's personal healing: "I did want to provide a vision for restoration, recovery, transformation, healing and wholeness for people who have experienced abuse, who have been victimized, who are survivors, who have experienced trauma, and who need to make that shift.... there are processes that we need to engage in order to sort of get justice. But I had to do the work of shifting to: I'm really hurting. And even though some things have been resolved out here, it's still unresolved within me. So what's the work that I need to do to heal and to become whole?"Chuck DeGroat on how churches can respond to emotional and spiritual abuse: "Can we create the kind of safety and space for people to come and merely be able to tell their stories and be heard...? And then can we set up really good healthy processes, and not just move to peacemaking quickly, but really good processes that will sort of look at these things carefully, investigate carefully, so that we can come to some sort of resolution, maybe even some sort of restoration?"Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. Love well, live well, & lead well Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookConnect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram...

Everybody thinks they know a narcissist, but what if you're one too? What if, deep down, we all have a bit of narcissism in us? It's easy to throw the term around and try to diagnose others, but what is a true narcissist? That's what we cover on this episode of Truth Over Tribe when Patrick sits down with Chuck DeGroat. Chuck is a Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. He's also a licensed therapist and author of the recent book, “When Narcissism Comes to Church.” Listen as he provides a true definition of narcissism, distinguishing between grandiose and vulnerable forms of narcissism. Plus, if narcissism is on a spectrum, are we all a bit of a narcissist after all? And how does your enneagram type correlate with narcissistic tendencies? Plus, what are the damages of narcissistic church leaders and what does he hope changes in evangelicalism over the next decade? Listen now! Ok, truth time... Did you like this episode? Tell us by leaving a rating or review!

False accusations of abuse or sexual misconduct are rare, but they still happen. So, how do we handle this tension? Markus Watson joins Amy to tell his story of being falsely accused and later exonerated. Markus and Amy talk about the importance of investigations and consistency in following established protocols for handling accusations and Pete Singer, Executive Director of GRACE shares the importance of having investigations run by those who are trained and who have the qualifications to do that investigation. Do you want to help us Share The Show? If you love the Untangled Faith Podcast (and, of course, you do) the most encouraging thing you can do to keep the podcast going is to spread the news to others. Send a text to your friends and family about the podcast, leave a review on your favorite podcast platform, and post about the show on social media. Once you've done any/all of these things, fill out this form to enter a drawing for a $50 Amazon gift card! Two entries will be chosen at random on December 10th, 2022. Here's the form: https://forms.gle/d2WbAXNRmMk263Gq9   Other episodes you might like: 46: When Narcissism Comes to Church. Guest: Chuck DeGroat – Untangled Faith Podcast 42: Boz Tchividjian answers your questions on G.R.A.C.E, Caring Well, #churchtoo, & NDAs – Untangled Faith Podcast 27: Ryan Ramsey- A message for people who have lost their faith community & for those who care about them. – Untangled Faith Podcast   Leave a review for the podcast: https://podcasts.app.com/us/podcast/untangled-faith/id1561001170 Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith   Where you can find Markus Watson: https://markuswatson.com https://markuswatson.com/podcast Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God's Mission. https://amzn.to.3VIJnzs   Where you can find me: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith  https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz https://facebook.com/untangledfaith Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producers: Michelle Pjanic, Phil & Susan Perdue, Pam Forsythe, Chelle Taylor    

Samuel James's recent review of Chuck DeGroat's book "When Narcissism Comes to Church" critiques DeGroat for replacing biblical categories with therapeutic ones. In this episode, we discuss the book review and the broader question of whether therapeutic language helps or hinders us in addressing sin.

Jenai Auman joins Amy Fritz to talk about why people stay in unhealthy faith communities or organizations and why people continue to support these institutions and leaders even when there are reputable sources reporting red flags. This is part 2 of the conversation that Amy and Emily Snook started last week. This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling here: https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Other episodes you might like: Untangled Faith: 59: Why Do People Stay and Support Unhealthy Communities and Leaders. Guest: Emily Snook on Apple Podcasts 46: When Narcissism Comes to Church. Guest: Chuck DeGroat – Untangled Faith Podcast 51: Celebrities for Jesus. Guest: Katelyn Beaty – Untangled Faith Podcast Leave a review for the podcast: https://podcasts.app.com/us/podcast/untangled-faith/id1561001170 Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith   Where you can find Jenai: Instagram: https://instagram.com/jeaniauman Substack: https://jenaiauman.substack.com   Where you can find me: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith  https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz https://facebook.com/untangledfaith Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producers: Michelle Pjanic, Phil & Susan Perdue

Emily Snook joins Amy Fritz to talk about why people stay in unhealthy faith communities or organizations and why people continue to support these institutions and leaders even when there are reputable sources reporting red flags. Disclaimer: Emily and Amy talk about this from the perspective of those who have agency and privilege and options to leave a place or situation that is unhealthy. Some in abusive situations have no good options because of other circumstances. Why We Did It, by Tim Miller: https://amzn.to/3zvF0ZF A Billion Years, by Mike Rinder: https://amzn.to/3NuUlj0 Other episodes you might like: 46: When Narcissism Comes to Church. Guest: Chuck DeGroat – Untangled Faith Podcast 42: Boz Tchividjian answers your questions on G.R.A.C.E, Caring Well, #churchtoo, & NDAs – Untangled Faith Podcast 51: Celebrities for Jesus. Guest: Katelyn Beaty – Untangled Faith Podcast Leave a review for the podcast: https://podcasts.app.com/us/podcast/untangled-faith/id1561001170 Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith Where you can find me: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith  https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz https://facebook.com/untangledfaith Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producers: Michelle Pjanic, Phil & Susan Perdue

In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, they discuss celebrity pastors and the harm that they bring to the witness of the Church. Ultimately, the goal for anyone answering the call to be a pastor or ministry leader should be to lead a lost world to Christ, not to set themselves up as an idol. But we live in an age where being committed to the doctrine of the Church and showing humility are values pushed far below charisma and popularity. Episode Links There are three books that Dr. White mentioned in relation to today's conversation that are definitely worth the time to read. Celebrities for Jesus by Katelyn Beaty takes a look at how fame, when it's cultivated for the sake of fame, is precisely the opposite of the heart of the gospel message. When Narcissism Comes to the Church by Chuck DeGroat explores the dangers of narcissism within the life of the church - both in its leaders and members. And finally, Good to Great by Jim Collins discusses the combination that makes someone a great leader - having both strength and humility. You'll also want to check out “CCP4: On Pastors and Moral Failings” discussing the litany of pastors in the news who've succumbed to moral failures, and the pain it brings to those within the church. For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday.

In this episode, we chat with Dr. Chuck DeGroat, professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse, about how to deal with the endemic of narcissism in the church context.

Is there any hope for toxic celebrity pastors?Stories abound of pastors who started to believe their own hype – and ended up capsizing their church and hurting a lot of people. There are spiritual and relational costs to putting leaders on pedestals.But celebrity dynamics also are bad for pastors themselves. Many find themselves “alone at the top,” without real friendship and accountability, which can foster various addictions and abuses. In the second episode of our summer series, Roxy and Katelyn are joined by spiritual formation expert Chuck DeGroat, who has counseled hundreds of pastors in crisis. Chuck explains what happens when leaders are put in the spotlight too young or for the wrong reasons, how narcissistic tendencies show up in the pastorate, the deployment of cheap grace, and how ministry leaders can start the inner work to heal – if they are willing.GUEST:Chuck DeGroat is professor of pastoral care and spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and author most recently of When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Learn more at ChuckDeGroat.net.Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn's new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Over the last few years, spiritual abusive tendencies in church leaders and church environments have come to light over and over again. Hillsong Church, Bobby Houston, Brian Houston, Carl Lentz, Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill, Willow Creek, Bill Hybels, Bob Jones University, The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), John MacArthur, C.J. Mahaney, Sovereign Grace Ministries... just to name a few have are some of the notable and high profile pastors and churches that have come into the light as abusive. Many of these churches and/or leaders have account after account of allegations that they have hidden. Many stories have come out about them silencing victims. Christianity Today's “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” has brought many conversations around spiritual abuse out into the open. The goal in this episode to to help us understand how common spiritual abuse is in our Christian environments, how to recognize spiritual abuse, and what we can do moving forward. A Few resources mentioned: When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse https://amzn.to/3IMCdyM A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing https://amzn.to/3uSJ8Am Other Links: Zach's blog: https://www.zachzienka.com David's blog: https://davidruybalid.wordpress.com

Author, licensed therapist, spiritual director, and speaker Chuck DeGroat joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith Podcast. Chuck DeGroat is the author of the book When Narcissism Comes to Church which came out in 2020. The paperback edition releases soon making this a perfect time for a conversation with him on the podcast. Amy and Chuck talk about all things narcissism including the many faces of narcissism in faith communities, what systemic narcissism looks like, and what to do when you hear reports that a leader you admire has hurt someone. How do you know what is true? Time stamps:  [00:03:13] Amy's experience on the launch team for Chuck's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. [00:04:48] What is narcissism? [00:06:53] Systemic narcissism [00:11:58] Do our church systems attract narcissistic leaders? [00:17:21] How does Chuck deal with resistance from pastors to seeing their own unhealth? [00:18:40] Suggestions for those who want to build healthy faith communities [00:24:50] Different ways narcissism presents itself. [00:28:13] What if someone tells me they have had painful experiences with a pastor who is kind to me? [00:31:40] Encouragement to leaders to be proactive in regard to their church culture health. [00:37:05] False vulnerability and performative vulnerability. 00:43:26] In a complex situation, how do you differentiate between who is the victim and who is the abuser? Resources: When Narcissism Comes to Church GRACE Narcissism and the System it Breeds by Dr. Diane Langberg Redeeming Power A Church Called Tov Something's Not Right This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling here. Are you interested in starting a podcast? Our sponsor, Libsyn, makes it easy. As a friend of the Untangled Faith podcast, when you sign up with Libsyn, you get your first month of hosting for free. Sign up here and use the code: FRIEND.  This episode is made possible by the support of the Untangled Faith membership community. For more information and to access the bonus audio with Chuck DeGroat visit: Untangled Faith Podcast is creating a podcast. | Patreon Newsletter signup Paypal Donation Twitter: Amy Fritz Untangled Faith Instagram: Amy Fritz Untangled Faith Website: Untangled Faith Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producer: Michelle Pjanic Related Episodes: Untangled Faith: 38: Misunderstood: Are We “Dogging” on the Church? Guests: Jenai Auman and Mary DeMuth on Apple Podcasts

In light of recent events with elder boards making decisions on allegations of abuse by pastors, a rebroadcast on one of our more popular and requested guests, Dr. Chuck DeGroat, seemed timely. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Interim D.Min. Director at Western Theological Seminary  and faculty member for the Soul Care Institute. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. He is a Minister of Word and Sacrament in the Reformed Church in America. He pastored in Orlando and San Francisco before transitioning to training and forming pastors. His experience includes training clergy in issues of abuse and trauma, pastor and planter assessments, church consultations, and investigations of abuse among pastors and within congregations. He has been featured on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast by Mike Cosper at Christianity Today in regards to the abuse of staff by pastor Marc Driscoll.Chuck has been married to Sara for 27 years, and has two adult daughters.He is the author of:When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual AbuseLeaving Egypt: Finding God in Wilderness PlacesWholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion and Healing the Divided Self,Toughest People to Love: How to Understand, Lead, and Love the Difficult People in Your Life -- Including Yourself.Follow Dr. DeGroat's work on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter*Several books are mentioned in this podcast that help in learning to discern the patterns of pastors who bully, intimidate and coerce their staff when it is not easy to see from the outside and is not something everyone on staff experiences. (If you are on a church elder board, or a church hiring committee, I highly recommend these books):A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerSomething's Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself From Its Power by Wade MullenRedeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Dr. Diane LangbergThe A World of Difference Podcast is brought to you in partnership with Missio Alliance.Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. Stay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen.   Find Us Online: @aworldof.difference on Instagram and A World of Difference on Facebook, on Twitter at @loriadbr & on Clubhouse @loriadbr.https://linktr.ee/aworldofdifference or loriadamsbrown.comInterested in one-on-one or group coaching on how to live a life that makes a difference? Check out: https://www.loriadamsbrown.com/coachingMentioned in this episode:Do you want to go deeper?Join us in Difference Makers, a community where we watch and discuss exclusive content that truly makes a difference. Give us $5 a month (the price of a latte), and join in on the conversation with our host Lori and others who want to make a difference. We'd love to have you join us!PatreonJoin Difference MakersJoin us in our membership community for exclusive content for only $5/month at https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference. We go deeper with each guest, and it makes such a difference.PatreonThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacyPodtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp

In light of recent events with elder boards making decisions on allegations of abuse by pastors, a rebroadcast on one of our more popular and requested guests, Dr. Chuck DeGroat, seemed timely. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Interim D.Min. Director at Western Theological Seminary  and faculty member for the Soul Care Institute. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. He is a Minister of Word and Sacrament in the Reformed Church in America. He pastored in Orlando and San Francisco before transitioning to training and forming pastors. His experience includes training clergy in issues of abuse and trauma, pastor and planter assessments, church consultations, and investigations of abuse among pastors and within congregations. He has been featured on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast by Mike Cosper at Christianity Today in regards to the abuse of staff by pastor Marc Driscoll.Chuck has been married to Sara for 27 years, and has two adult daughters.He is the author of:When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual AbuseLeaving Egypt: Finding God in Wilderness PlacesWholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion and Healing the Divided Self,Toughest People to Love: How to Understand, Lead, and Love the Difficult People in Your Life -- Including Yourself.Follow Dr. DeGroat's work on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter*Several books are mentioned in this podcast that help in learning to discern the patterns of pastors who bully, intimidate and coerce their staff when it is not easy to see from the outside and is not something everyone on staff experiences. (If you are on a church elder board, or a church hiring committee, I highly recommend these books):A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerSomething's Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself From Its Power by Wade MullenRedeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Dr. Diane LangbergThe A World of Difference Podcast is brought to you in partnership with Missio Alliance.Become a patron of this podcast, and enjoy free merch. Join other patrons of this podcast at Patreon. Stay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen.   Find Us Online: @aworldof.difference on Instagram and A World of Difference on Facebook, on Twitter at @loriadbr & on Clubhouse @loriadbr.https://linktr.ee/aworldofdifference or loriadamsbrown.comInterested in one-on-one or group coaching on how to live a life that makes a difference? Check out: https://www.loriadamsbrown.com/coachingMentioned in this episode:Do you want to go deeper?Join us in Difference Makers, a community where we watch and discuss exclusive content that truly makes a difference. Give us $5 a month (the price of a latte), and join in on the conversation with our host Lori and others who want to make a difference. We'd love to have you join us!PatreonJoin Difference MakersJoin us in our membership community for exclusive content for only $5/month at https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference. We go deeper with each guest, and it makes such a difference.PatreonThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacyPodtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp

Narcissistic abuse is rampant in our society and in our churches. However, naming and exposing narcissism can help us to find freedom from abuse we have already suffered in the past, and protect us (and those we love) from abuse in the future. Chuck DeGroat discusses how to understand narcissism as a spectrum, and reveals nine different ways a narcissist may show up in relationships. Chuck also talks about the role of narcissism in spiritual abuse, and describes how entire church organizations can become narcissistic and spiritually abusive. Visit ChuckDeGroat.net Purchase Chuck's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church Record a Question you'd like answered on The Christian Single Moms Podcast Purchase PlusONE Parents' new devotional, Safe Haven: A Devotional for the Abused & Abandoned What's Your Stress Style? Take the Quiz Join PlusONE Parents on Facebook and Instagram, and check out the Beloved Collective private Facebook group. Discover more at PlusONEParents.org RECOMMENDED EPISODES E74- Don't Tolerate Toxicity: When & How to Walk Away from Emotionally Draining People with Gary Thomas E69- How to Stop Being Manipulated (& Help Your Kids Avoid it Too) with Tim Sanford

On this episode of Melody and Friends, Melody sits down with author and professor, Chuck DeGroat, to discuss narcissism in the church. Chuck discusses the different forms narcissism often manifests itself in leaders of the church, what characteristics a narcissist will often display, and ways that they often try to redirect or lead conversations about their behavior. Chuck then explains why narcissism seems to be such a predominant issue in the church and what we as a congregation can begin to do in addressing it. Who is Chuck DeGroat? Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. Chuck is committed to spiritual and emotional formation for the sake of mission. His experience is represented in a fluid combination of pastoral ministry and seminary training for 20 years.  He has served several church plants as a teaching pastor and has started two church-based clinical counseling centers.  Most recently, he was a teaching pastor at City Church San Francisco, where he co-founded Newbigin House of Studies, an urban and missional training center with offerings through Western Theological Seminary. Things We Talk About In This Episode: What is narcissism? Why is narcissism such a predominant issue in the church? How to approach and deal with someone exhibiting narcissistic behavior How Chuck DeGroat works to help both narcissists and those affected by narcissistic behavior  Our listeners can learn more about Chuck DeGroat, access his online courses and sign up for soul care intensives by visiting his website chuckdegroat.net.  Our listeners can also pick up a copy of his book, When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse, at the Amazon link here: https://www.amazon.com/When-Narcissism-Comes-Church-Community-ebook/dp/B07ZG79HHF

We're taking a break to be with family over the holiday so we wanted to replay two topic-based episodes that have gone over extremely well with our listeners. This week, take another listen to my killer conversation with psychologist, author, and spiritual director Chuck Degroat, about the nine faces of narcissism.  We're not talking about people with full-blown narcissistic personality disorder per se. We're talking about narcissism on a continuum and what it looks like when each Enneagram type is manifesting a narcissistic style or type. Each of us is somewhere on that narcissistic spectrum.  In this episode you'll learn: What narcissism actually is How narcissism shows up in all nine types, and What the healing path is for all nines types to keep narcissism in check. Chuck is the Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary Holland MI, and Co-Founder and a Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. His latest book is, When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. He is a licensed therapist, author, retreat leader, and spiritual director. Chuck has been married to Sara for 25 years and has two daughters.

Hey friends! On the show today, the brilliant Jackie Hill Perry joins me to talk all about her new book, Holier Than Thou (isn't that a great title?!), why she wrote the book, and how we can trust God because He is Holy, and not in a scary, rigid way we may have heard growing up in the Church.  Jackie Hill Perry is a mom, writer, poet, and artist whose work has been featured in the Washington Times, The 700 Club, Desiring God, The Gospel Coalition, and other publications. Since becoming a Christian in 2008, she uses her speaking and teaching gifts to share the light of the gospel of God as authentically as she can.  We also dive into a variety of topics such as the crisis of discipleship and holding others accountable, how we are wasting time not to trust God, and why believers should care about God's holiness.  Listen in to learn more about:  How idols are unholy and insufficient to be God for us. The fact that God is alive makes Him sufficient as a Savior for us.  What believers get wrong about God's holiness How suffering and sin, in so many ways, have protected us against God. We need to remember that if God cannot sin, He cannot sin against you.   Favorite quotes: 1. Discipleship is simply allowing someone in your life, or being in someone's life where you can not only observe how they live but also be taught how they live. 2. We need people in our lives to impart wisdom and we need people in our lives that we can impart wisdom to. 3. God's holiness is not just his moral purity but it's also his transcendence. The fact that he exists differently from us, that he is a creator not a creature. He is external, he is not finite.      4. Caring about God's holiness is caring about God himself. 5. It's always going to fail you if you don't know God. In this episode I answer this question: 1. How do you work from home and stay productive? (32:42) Great things we discussed:  1. Jackie Hill Perry 2. Holier Than Thou 3. Come Thou Fount 4. Big Brother5. When Narcissism Comes to Church6. Water Flosser 7. TimeHop  8. Be Praised 9. PowerSheets  10. Called Creatives 11. Standing Strong Hope you loved this episode! Be sure to subscribe in iTunes and slap some stars on a review! :) xo, Alli  www.alliworthington.com  

Jen is joined by two great first-time guests to discuss the current evangelical reckoning with destructive spiritual leadership, narcissism, humility, and of course lots of books on the subject!Hannah Anderson lives in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia where she spends her days  writing and reading and caring for her family.  She is the author of multiple books, including All That's Good: Recovering the Lost Art of Discernment and Humble Roots: How Humility Grounds and Nourishes Your Soul. Hannah is also the co-host of the Persuasion Podcast. You can follow Hannah on Twitter @sometimesalight.Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. His academic specialization is in the intersection of psychology and the Bible, and he co-founded the Newbigin House of Studies in San Francisco where he continues to serve as Senior Fellow. His book, When Narcissism Comes to Church, was published with IVP in 2020. You can follow Chuck on Twitter @chuckdegroat. Books Mentioned in this Episode:If you'd like to order any of the following books, we encourage you to do so from Hearts and Minds Books(An independent bookstore in Dallastown, PA, run by Byron and Beth Borger) All That's Good: Recovering the Lost Art of Discernment by Hannah AndersonHumble Roots: How Humility Grounds and Nourishes You by Hannah AndersonWhen Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroatThe Gravity of Sin: Augustine, Luther and Barth on 'homo incurvatus in se' by Matt JensonRedeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Diane LangbergSomething's Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse - And Freeing Yourself From Its Power by Wade MullenA Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerThe Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderenHumility: Wellspring of Virtue by Dietrich von HildebrandPlaying God: Redeeming the Gift of Power by Andy CrouchDiscernment: Reading the Signs of Daily Life by Henri NouwenThe Way of the Heart: Connecting with God Through Prayer, Wisdom and Silence by Henri NouwenIn the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership by Henri NouwenDeath Comes to Pemberley by P.D. JamesHealing Racial Trauma: The Road to Resilience by Sheila Wise RoweHealing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors: Overcoming Internal Self-Alienation by Janina FisherGlittering Images: A Novel by Susan Howatch

Brenda J and Karen Wonder interview Chuck Degroat, a therapist, professor, spiritual director, and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church. They take a deep dive into understanding narcissism and he explains in detail the difference and importance between being diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and having narcissistic characteristics. They also discuss the healing process for  victims of narcissistic abuse. A must listen..an extremely educational and informative podcast. https://chuckdegroat.net

Brenda J and Karen Wonder interview Chuck Degroat, a therapist, professor, spiritual director, and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church. They take a deep dive into understanding narcissism and he explains in detail the difference and importance between being diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and having narcissistic characteristics. They also discuss the healing process for  victims of narcissistic abuse. A must listen..an extremely educational and informative podcast. https://chuckdegroat.net

In this episode, I recommend Chuck DeGroat's timely and wonderful book, When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse, and I talk about the introduction of Paul's letter to the Romans. I also talk a bit about identity politics, responding to Charles Murray's article, “Identity Crisis: How the Politics of Race Will Wreck America,” published this month in The Spectator.

Chuck DeGroat is professor of pastoral care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church. Today, Chuck shares about dealing with anxiety his entire life, pursuing a life of influence, and how stepping back from that helped him find wholeness. Chuck also discusses the brokenness that so many pastors experience […] The post Chuck DeGroat and Invitation to Obscurity appeared first on Eric Nevins.

Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. Chuck has been married to Sara for 27 years, and has two adult daughters.He is the author of:When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse Leaving Egypt: Finding God in Wilderness Places Wholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion and Healing the Divided Self, Toughest People to Love: How to Understand, Lead, and Love the Difficult People in Your Life -- Including Yourself.Follow Dr. DeGroat's work on Instagram, Facebook, and TwitterStay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen.  On Clubhouse @loriadbr. Find Us Online: @aworldof.difference on Instagram and A World of Difference on Facebook on Twitter at @loriadbr https://linktr.ee/aworldofdifference or loriadamsbrown.comMentioned in this episode:Do you want to go deeper?Join us in Difference Makers, a community where we watch and discuss exclusive content that truly makes a difference. Give us $5 a month (the price of a latte), and join in on the conversation with our host Lori and others who want to make a difference. We'd love to have you join us!PatreonJoin Difference MakersJoin us in our membership community for exclusive content for only $5/month at https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference. We go deeper with each guest, and it makes such a difference.PatreonThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacyPodtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp

Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary (Holland, MI) and Co-Founder and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is passionate about spiritual formation for mission. He's spent 20+ years in a fluid combination of pastoral ministry, seminary teaching, and clinical counseling. His latest book is "When Narcissism Comes to Church." https://chuckdegroat.net/

Dr. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. Chuck has been married to Sara for 27 years, and has two adult daughters.He is the author of:When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse Leaving Egypt: Finding God in Wilderness Places Wholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion and Healing the Divided Self, Toughest People to Love: How to Understand, Lead, and Love the Difficult People in Your Life -- Including Yourself.Follow Dr. DeGroat's work on Instagram, Facebook, and TwitterStay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen.  On Clubhouse @loriadbr. Find Us Online: @aworldof.difference on Instagram and A World of Difference on Facebook on Twitter at @loriadbr https://linktr.ee/aworldofdifference or loriadamsbrown.comMentioned in this episode:Do you want to go deeper?Join us in Difference Makers, a community where we watch and discuss exclusive content that truly makes a difference. Give us $5 a month (the price of a latte), and join in on the conversation with our host Lori and others who want to make a difference. We'd love to have you join us!PatreonJoin Difference MakersJoin us in our membership community for exclusive content for only $5/month at https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference. We go deeper with each guest, and it makes such a difference.PatreonThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacyPodtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp

Chuck DeGroat, author, pastor, and therapist, joins us on the podcast today to have a vitally important conversation about When Narcissism Comes to Church, Why Narcistic Tendencies are High in Church Planters and Missionaries, The Impact of a Narcistic Leader on those They are Leading, Why Narcissism is Hurtful and Maddening, Tendencies of a Narcistic Leader, and Hope for Healing.

This is an interview with Dr. Chuck DeGroat about his newest book, "When Narcissism Comes to Church." We talk about the signs of narcissism, how it hurts the church, and the process of healing.Chuck is a Professor at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. You can connect with Chuck by going to his website - www.chuckdegroat.net.Chuck's book, "When Narcissism Comes to Church"10 Signs of Narcissism - Centering all decision-making on themselves- Impatience or an inability to listen to others- Delegating without giving proper authority or with too many limits- Feelings of entitlement- Feeling threatened or intimidated by other talented staff- Needing to be the best and brightest in the room- Inconsistency and impulsiveness- Praising and withdrawing- Intimidating others- Fauxnerability (a faux or fake vulnerability)QUOTES from the book:[narcissists are] “mirror-hungry,” using their audiences and followers as a mirror to reflect back praise and admiration. The narcissistic leader's hidden shame and pervasive sense of emptiness is alleviated, perhaps only for a little while, by the applause of an adoring crowd or the affection of a devoted follower."I've never seen systemic health emerge apart from the leader (or leaders) going on their own transformational journey."“I am convinced that the missional fervor and rise in church planting we've witnessed since the 1980s can be correlated with a growing prevalence of narcissism. Nowhere have I seen the narcissism-shame dynamic more pronounced than among church planters, some of whom have become megachurch pastors. Some church planting assessments I've seen practically invite narcissistic leadership. My work in this area as a therapist, pastor, consultant, psychological assessor, and professor over many years persuades me that the narcissism in many young men in particular is baptized as spiritual giftedness in a way that does great disservice to them and ignores deep wells of shame and fragility lurking within” (p. 8).DeGroat says, “When I started doing psychological assessments for pastors and church planters, I saw that narcissistic traits were often presented as strengths. Narcissism can be interpreted as confidence, strong leadership, clear vision, a thick skin… A colleague of mine often says that ministry is a magnet for a narcissistic personality – who else would want to speak on behalf of God every week” (p. 19)DeGroat writes, “In my own work, which includes fifteen years of psychological testing on pastors, the vast majority of ministerial candidates test on the spectrum of cluster B DSM-V personality disorders, which feature narcissistic traits most prominently... The rates are even higher among church planters” (p. 19).DeGroat observes, “Narcissistic pastors are anxious and insecure shepherds who do not lead the sheep to still waters but into hurricane winds. I've attended and spoken at dozens of pastor's conferences and I see this anxiety abuzz in the comparison and competition, the showmanship and dress, the addiction to substances and fitness and social media and approval” (p. 20).He writes, “The Exodus story allows us to see ourselves, and our congregations, as pilgrims on a healing journey. It invites us to see the enslavement that keeps us from thriving. It invites us to be brave enough to cry out to God. It invites to the risky journey, fleeing what is familiar for an unpredictable path ahead. It invites us to have patience in the face of a long and winding wilderness road. It invites us to lament in the face of continued pain. It invites us to resolve to enter a new land, a hope-filled place of flourishing. Indeed, all stories of transformation necessarily take us on a cruciform (cross-shaped) journey imitating the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, as we become participants in his suffering in order to experience his resurrection” (p. 133).DeGroat observes, “Many of us find ourselves too busy, too habituated to the demands of modern life, too out of touch with deeper emotions to take our stories seriously and to embark on a healing journey... Healing requires radical honesty with ourselves and the courage to follow through on the wilderness path [to healing]. Perhaps the two most important components of healing trauma are awareness and intentionality. Because trauma thrives in the shadows, awareness and intentionality are often neglected for self-promotion, disconnection, and self-sabotage” (p. 141).OTHER BOOKS MENTIONED:"Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places," by Chuck DeGroat"In the Name of Jesus," by Henri Nouwen"On the Mischiefs of Self-Ignorance and the Benefits of Self-Acquaintance," by Richard Baxter"A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing," by Scot McKnight

This is an interview with Dr. Chuck DeGroat about his newest book, "When Narcissism Comes to Church." We talk about the signs of narcissism, how it hurts the church, and the process of healing.Chuck is a Professor at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. You can connect with Chuck by going to his website - www.chuckdegroat.net.Chuck's book, "When Narcissism Comes to Church"10 Signs of Narcissism - Centering all decision-making on themselves- Impatience or an inability to listen to others- Delegating without giving proper authority or with too many limits- Feelings of entitlement- Feeling threatened or intimidated by other talented staff- Needing to be the best and brightest in the room- Inconsistency and impulsiveness- Praising and withdrawing- Intimidating others- Fauxnerability (a faux or fake vulnerability)QUOTES from the book:[narcissists are] “mirror-hungry,” using their audiences and followers as a mirror to reflect back praise and admiration. The narcissistic leader’s hidden shame and pervasive sense of emptiness is alleviated, perhaps only for a little while, by the applause of an adoring crowd or the affection of a devoted follower."I've never seen systemic health emerge apart from the leader (or leaders) going on their own transformational journey."“I am convinced that the missional fervor and rise in church planting we’ve witnessed since the 1980s can be correlated with a growing prevalence of narcissism. Nowhere have I seen the narcissism-shame dynamic more pronounced than among church planters, some of whom have become megachurch pastors. Some church planting assessments I’ve seen practically invite narcissistic leadership. My work in this area as a therapist, pastor, consultant, psychological assessor, and professor over many years persuades me that the narcissism in many young men in particular is baptized as spiritual giftedness in a way that does great disservice to them and ignores deep wells of shame and fragility lurking within” (p. 8).DeGroat says, “When I started doing psychological assessments for pastors and church planters, I saw that narcissistic traits were often presented as strengths. Narcissism can be interpreted as confidence, strong leadership, clear vision, a thick skin… A colleague of mine often says that ministry is a magnet for a narcissistic personality – who else would want to speak on behalf of God every week” (p. 19)DeGroat writes, “In my own work, which includes fifteen years of psychological testing on pastors, the vast majority of ministerial candidates test on the spectrum of cluster B DSM-V personality disorders, which feature narcissistic traits most prominently... The rates are even higher among church planters” (p. 19).DeGroat observes, “Narcissistic pastors are anxious and insecure shepherds who do not lead the sheep to still waters but into hurricane winds. I’ve attended and spoken at dozens of pastor’s conferences and I see this anxiety abuzz in the comparison and competition, the showmanship and dress, the addiction to substances and fitness and social media and approval” (p. 20).He writes, “The Exodus story allows us to see ourselves, and our congregations, as pilgrims on a healing journey. It invites us to see the enslavement that keeps us from thriving. It invites us to be brave enough to cry out to God. It invites to the risky journey, fleeing what is familiar for an unpredictable path ahead. It invites us to have patience in the face of a long and winding wilderness road. It invites us to lament in the face of continued pain. It invites us to resolve to enter a new land, a hope-filled place of flourishing. Indeed, all stories of transformation necessarily take us on a cruciform (cross-shaped) journey imitating the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, as we become participants in his suffering in order to experience his resurrection” (p. 133).DeGroat observes, “Many of us find ourselves too busy, too habituated to the demands of modern life, too out of touch with deeper emotions to take our stories seriously and to embark on a healing journey... Healing requires radical honesty with ourselves and the courage to follow through on the wilderness path [to healing]. Perhaps the two most important components of healing trauma are awareness and intentionality. Because trauma thrives in the shadows, awareness and intentionality are often neglected for self-promotion, disconnection, and self-sabotage” (p. 141).OTHER BOOKS MENTIONED:"Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places," by Chuck DeGroat"In the Name of Jesus," by Henri Nouwen"On the Mischiefs of Self-Ignorance and the Benefits of Self-Acquaintance," by Richard Baxter"A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing," by Scot McKnight

Support the Show:https://www.patreon.com/preacherboys Purchase a Preacher Boys shirt, mask, sticker, or other merch to rep the show! https://www.teepublic.com/user/preacher-boys-podcast––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––On this episode of the Preacher Boys Podcast, Eric sits down with the author of When Narcissism Comes to Church, Chuck DeGroat.–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––Purchase a copy of When Narcissism Comes to Church here: https://amzn.to/37ykJob–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author, speaker, consultant, and therapist. Chuck is married to Sara and has two teenage daughters.–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––Why does narcissism seem to thrive in our churches? We've seen the news stories and heard the rumors. Maybe we ourselves have been hurt by a narcissistic church leader. It's easy to throw the term around and diagnose others from afar. But what is narcissism, really? And how does it infiltrate the church? Chuck DeGroat has been counseling pastors with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as well as those wounded by narcissistic leaders and systems, for over twenty years. He knows firsthand the devastation narcissism leaves in its wake and how insidious and painful it is. In When Narcissism Comes to Church, DeGroat takes a close look at narcissism, not only in ministry leaders but also in church systems. He offers compassion and hope for those affected by its destructive power and imparts wise counsel for churches looking to heal from its systemic effects. DeGroat also offers hope for narcissists themselves―not by any shortcut, but by the long, slow road of genuine recovery, possible only through repentance and trust in the humble gospel of Jesus–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––Find more stories regarding the IFB movement by visiting:preacherboysdoc.comhttps://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdochttps://twitter.com/preacherboysdochttps://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/To connect with a community who share the Preacher Boys Podcast mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

As a follow up to last week's conversation, Dr. Chuck DeGroat returns to the podcast to answer listener questions about narcissism with Dan and Rachael. How are we to engage a person who might be a parent, spouse, or spiritual leader who has narcissistic characteristics? How do we engage a narcissist with wisdom? And, on a larger scale, how do we recognize the symptoms of a narcissistic church culture? We are deeply grateful for our community, for your bravery in asking these vulnerable questions. We ask that, as you listen to this conversation, you pay attention to what it stirs in your body and give yourself the care and space you need to engage. Listener Resources: Follow Chuck DeGroat on Twitter Read Chuck's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church Learn more about Chuck and the resources he offers Listen to the first podcast episode in a series on Spiritual Abuse

Today on the podcast, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen have a timely conversation with Chuck DeGroat, professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, licensed therapist, and spiritual director. He is the author of Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places as well as When Narcissism Comes to Church, which serves as the primary topic of conversation throughout this episode. In this special episode, you'll learn more about the characteristics of narcissism, how Chuck came to address narcissism in the context of the church (particularly in the realm of church planting), and the reckoning that is taking place in the church today to dismantle structures of narcissism.

When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroat Chuckdegroat.net Why does narcissism seem to thrive in our churches? We've seen the news stories and heard the rumors. Maybe we ourselves have been hurt by a narcissistic church leader. It's easy to throw the term around and diagnose others from afar. But what […] The post Chris Voss Podcast – When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse by Chuck DeGroat appeared first on Chris Voss Official Website.

It seems fitting that Chuck DeGroat's new book about narcissism and the church would come out in 2020 as we're all noticing the fault lines in our life together like never before. Chuck (psychologist, professor, pastor) reminds us that this isn't new; that “we swim in the cultural waters of narcissism” all the time. He helps us to see how narcissism affects us, how misunderstanding it makes it worse and how we can respond to it with both grace and boundaries. We explore how healthy leaders can ask "How do you experience me?" Then listen non-defensively to the honest feedback. We hope you'll listen in. Subscribe | Rate & Review Conversation Overview Leadership principle: What a narcissistic leader looks like Two kinds of narcissism Am I a narcissist? Wounding and gaslighting Systems that support narcissistic leadership Narcissism and the Enneagram Surviving pandemic pressure--are the pastors okay?   More from Chuck: twitter @chuckdegroat https://chuckdegroat.net/ When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse Wholeheartedness: Busyness, Exhaustion, and Healing the Divided Self Falling into Goodness: Lenten Reflections Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places Toughest People to Love: How to Understand, Lead, and Love the Difficult People in Your Life -- Including Yourself Thank you for listening. If you enjoy listening to The Leader's Journey Podcast, the best way to support us is to take just a few seconds and leave a rating and/or comment over on iTunes or share it with your friends on Facebook … Thank you!

Allen and Chuck DeGroat have a focused conversation about what narcissism looks like in systems, particularly the church and the pain it causes. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, Holland MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author (numerous books), speaker, consultant, and therapist. His book, When Narcissism Comes to Church is getting great reviews while the topic is a conversation that has been a long time coming. Grab a copy on Amazon. SUPPORT FOR OUR MINISTRY:Help keep our radio programming and podcasts going with a donation, either one time or monthly. Go to agoranetworkministries.com and click the donation link. Let us know what you're supporting. As always, we encourage you if you are struggling with your mental health and are in crisis to call the mental health hotline. Someone with proper training will listen and guide you toward a healthy response. If you are considering suicide please contact a friend and call the SUICIDE HOTLINE …and contact your counsellor or therapist immediately. In Canada Call the crisis hotline 1.833.456.4566 | Text 45645 or go to crisisservicescanada.ca In the United States call 911 or 1-800-784-2433 or go to suicide.org for numbers in your area

Allen and Chuck DeGroat have a focused conversation about what narcissism looks like in a pastor or church leader. Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary, Holland MI, and Senior Fellow at Newbigin House of Studies, San Francisco. He is an author (numerous books), speaker, consultant, and therapist. His book, When Narcissism Comes to Church is getting great reviews while the topic is a conversation that has been a long time coming. SUPPORT FOR OUR MINISTRY:Help keep our radio programming and podcasts going with a donation, either one time or monthly. Go to agoranetworkministries.com and click the donation link. Let us know what you're supporting. As always, we encourage you if you are struggling with your mental health and are in crisis to call the mental health hotline. Someone with proper training will listen and guide you toward a healthy response. If you are considering suicide please contact a friend and call the SUICIDE HOTLINE …and contact your counsellor or therapist immediately. In Canada Call the crisis hotline 1.833.456.4566 | Text 45645 or go to crisisservicescanada.ca In the United States call 911 or 1-800-784-2433 or go to suicide.org for numbers in your area

Our conversation today is with Chuck DeGroat. Chuck is a follower of Jesus, a husband to Sara for 26 years, and father to two amazing daughters. He is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at https://www.westernsem.edu/faculty/degroat/ (Western Theological Seminary) in Holland MI. He co-founded http://www.newbiginhouse.org/ (Newbigin House of Studies) in San Francisco where he serves as a Senior Fellow. During his years pastoring, he started two church-based counseling centers.  Chuck is an author, having written http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Egypt-Finding-Wilderness-Places/dp/1592556736/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370578228&sr=8-1&keywords=leaving+egypt (Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places), http://www.amazon.com/Toughest-People-Love-Understand-Difficult/dp/0802871437 (The Toughest People to Love ), https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CJ5KK8K/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#nav-subnav (Wholeheartedness) , a Lenten devotional is https://www.amazon.com/Falling-into-Goodness-Daily-Readings/dp/1541206401/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523721218&sr=8-1&keywords=falling+into+goodness (Falling Into Goodness,) and his latest is https://www.ivpress.com/when-narcissism-comes-to-church (When Narcissism Comes to Church ) where he diagnoses a profound problem in our churches and among our clergy, and offer a way forward.

We hear a lot about narcissism, but how does it show up in our organizations? What are the consequences of a narcissistic pastor or faith leader? The team talks with author and counselor Chuck DeGroat about his latest book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.

Doug and J.R. have an important conversation about leadership and narcissism with Chuck DeGroat. If you lead in any capacity, you need to slowly listen, take notes, and pay attention to the emotions and moves that happen within your own soul. Chuck speaks with authority to the inner work of the leader from doing the work himself and leading the research in this area. He has named things that we believe will help equip leaders in their own inner work. Pastors and leaders, we have great responsibility to continue in our journey towards health and wholeness, may the Lord give your courage to trust as you continue in this sacred calling. We hope you find as much encouragement in this conversation as we have. Resources: -Chuck's newest book. When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse.-Chuck has been kind enough to give us five copies of When Narcissism Comes to Church to give away! Here is what you need to do to claim your copy. Email Jane - Jane@kairospartnerships.org with a good question for the show. The first five people who email Jane a good question will receive the book.-Follow chuck on Twitter @chuckdegroatQuestions:-How do you experience me? -5 questions from Josh Meyers (S1,EP10). Consider asking a few people (email J.R., for a copy of these questions in a doc.)1. Name one thing I do really well without putting any effort? 2. What 3 words would you use to describe me?3. Name one area of my life where you see room for improvement?4. If you were put in charge of the worlds resources what would you assign me to do? 5. What shows up when I show up? Good or bad, what shows up?If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts for the show drop us a line, at dougmoister@gmail.com or jrbriggs@kairospartnerships.orgWe are a new podcast so we ask you to make sure to subscribe, write a review, and share this with other pastors and kingdom leaders. We hope to see the MMP community grow and cannot do it without you. Monday morning pastor is a ministry of is brought to you by a partnership between https://www.missioalliance.org/ and https://www.kairospartnerships.org/podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Narcissism has many faces, and the Church is not free of narcissists. Author Chuck DeGroat shares his knowledge as a Christian counselor who sees both narcissists and those who have been wounded by them from his book, "When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse."

Guest Bios Show Transcript They're wolves in sheep's clothing—pastors who are narcissists, who claim to be serving God but are really serving themselves, and leaving a path of devastation in their wake. In this episode of The Roys Report, Chuck DeGroat —a professor, clinical therapist, and author of the book, When Narcissism Comes to Church — joins Julie for an enlightening discussion. 

My story, (Sharon Swing) has been blessed by effective leaders and harmed by unhealthy leaders. All of our stories contain chapters where people have influenced us in ways that shape us. Sometimes we have a choice over who leads us, and sometimes we have not had not. Leaders have a way of intentionally or unintentionally influencing our behavior, our perceptions of ourselves, of how the world works and sometimes even our perception of who God is. Leaders have sway over who is 'in' and who is 'out.' I think it is a good exercise to consider who the leaders have been in our lives and their effects on us. It helps us sort our our life story -- what to take with us and what to leave behind.I have encountered narcissistic leaders. I have served on staff under a narcissist, I have consulted with companies who have leaders who could be described in this way. I have confronted several narcissists, and I have been shamed publicly by one in particularly hurtful ways. I have studied the effects narcissists have on organizations. I have witnessed the effects of the skewed perspective people have of what 'strong' leadership looks like as they attempt to mirror their senior leader who is a narcissist. I have witnessed situations in organizations where the definition of who is a leader and who is not is a leader is measured by their likeness to the style of the unhealthy narcissist. My hope is that we can open our eyes to identify narcissistic leaders and also identify the ways in which we can be unintentionally drawn toward them.My prayer with this episode of the oneLife Maps Podcast is to have a conversation that might lead to hope and healing. Maybe you need to hear that you are not crazy. You are not alone. It's time to lay down whatever shame you picked up in the midst of your experiences with narcissistic leaders who may have, or are having some control over you and your perception of who you are.As Chuck DeGroat says in this episode, "A narcissist's perception of you is ALWAYS less than God's vision for you."Please leave comments and questions for us on this episode. We can start a conversation on our Facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/onelifemaps/ or search for us @onelifemaps on Facebook, and Twitter.This week's episode is a conversation with Chuck DeGroat, author of "When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse."Why does narcissism seem to thrive in our churches? We've seen the news stories and heard the rumors. Maybe we ourselves have been hurt by a narcissistic church leader. It's easy to throw the term around and diagnose others from afar. But what is narcissism, really? And how does it infiltrate the church? Chuck DeGroat has been counseling pastors with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, as well as those wounded by narcissistic leaders and systems, for over twenty years. He knows firsthand the devastation narcissism leaves in its wake and how insidious and painful it is. In When Narcissism Comes to Church, DeGroat takes a close look at narcissism, not only in ministry leaders but also in church systems. He offers compassion and hope for those affected by its destructive power and imparts wise counsel for churches looking to heal from its systemic effects. DeGroat also offers hope for narcissists themselves―not by any shortcut, but by the long, slow road of genuine recovery, possible only through repentance and trust in the humble gospel of Jesus.Connect with Chuck DeGroat at https://chuckdegroat.netYou can purchase the book thru Amazon at this link: https://www.amazon.com/When-Narcissism-Comes-Church-Community/dp/0830841598/ref=sr_1_1?crid=BX3J4CT423CJ&dchild=1&keywords=when+narcissism+comes+to+church&qid=1584034984&sprefix=when+nar%2Caps%2C161&sr=8-1•••••••••••••••oneLife Maps is, at its core, interested in helping people to recognize and respond to God in their stories. The seven lies Darrell talks about invitations to consider how a few shifts in perspective on how we think about God and faith effect our ways of being in the world. You don't have to agree with everything he says to appreciate the deep thinking that has led Darrell and others to a healthy spirituality that prioritizes love as its highest value.If you have engaged in 'Listen to My Life: Maps for Recognizing and Responding to God in My Story' visual life mapping, you'll see that this conversation relates directly to the bottom line on the 'My Life Story' map, where you are asked to consider how you have noticed God, or viewed who God is over the course of your life. This conversation is a great way to help you sort out what stories you have been handed about who you are and who God is -- and prayerfully decide what to take with you, and what to leave behind.Please explore www.onelifemaps.com to download a free introduction booklet to 'Listen to My Life: Maps for Recognizing and Responding to God in My Story,' that contains the artwork we refer to in this episode. You can purchase your 'Listen to My Life' portfolio on that website, too.Audio Meditations as a Thank You for Your SupportWe're on a mission to help people recognize and respond to God in their story. Will you help?Our Patreon subscription, at http://www.patreon.com/onelifemaps offers you access to recorded audio meditations that are created to assist you in becoming self-aware and God-aware.Sibyl Towner and I (Sharon Swing), co-authored the 'Listen to My Life: Maps for Recognizing and Responding to God in My Story' visual maps, and we produce the oneLifemaps podcast along with our friend and Director of Facilitator Development, Joan Kelley.We are offering you the opportunity to support the continuation of the oneLifemaps podcast and the publishing of 'Listen to My Life' in and weekly audio meditations as a token of our appreciation.If we can serve you, please let us know by emailing us here.EquipmentWe've had some questions about our podcasting equipment. Here is what we use:RecorderMicrophonesMicrophone StandsHeadsetMicrophone Wind ScreensHeadset Extension CordsHeadset Cable SplitterThe links in this episode may give us a minuscule amount of affiliate revenue from Amazon, but they won't cost you anything at all. Thanks for the support. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.