Podcasts about Moishe Postone

Two titanic figures in contemporary theory join us for two separate and strongly divergent episodes on the status of revolutionary thought in political philosophy today. Ray Brassier influenced a generation of philosophers not only with his outstanding and highly rigorous writing, but also his absolutely stunning translations of Quentin Meillassoux and François Laruelle, and in so doing is subcutaneously responsible for literally a decade of earthquakes in the discourse. Ray joins us to evaluate the status of Marx in the 21st century.Ray traces the long arc from Nihil Unbound through Marx, Sellars, and the inferentialist tradition, opening up an unapologetically rationalist framework for understanding both science and emancipation, without reducing either to liberal platitudes or metaphysical fantasies. We discuss the seductive dangers of naive anti-humanism, the legacy of German idealism, the automation of reason, and why political theory today needs to be deeply embedded in materialist accounts of scale, finance, and abstraction. Ray shares a trenchant critique of both the empiricist and idealist strands of Enlightenment thought, offering instead a dialectical, normatively grounded, socially embedded concept of rationality that returns to Kant and Hegel by way of Wilfrid Sellars. We strongly recommend:Ray's book Nihil Unbound: Enlightenment and Extinction His essay “The View from Nowhere”His exceptional piece "Politics of the Rift" on Théorie Communiste in e-fluxWork from the journal Endnotes (https://endnotes.org.uk/)In the episode, we also discuss theorists such as Badiou, Larouelle, Meillassoux, and Marxist reinterpretations by Moishe Postone, Théorie Communiste, and the German “New Reading” school. Ray elaborates on how capital's increasing abstraction—especially in financialized regimes where labor is decoupled from value—is not the end of Marx, but a reason to read Marx more seriously and materially than ever.

Daniel returns to tell us about the Chicago encampments, Andy reports back from the New School occupation, and we re-read two Moishe Postone essays on anti-zionism and antisemitism in light of the new movement.For the full episode, all bonus content, and access to ongoing discussion and debate in our Discord community, support the show at http://patreon.com/theantifadaNew School divestment vote:https://www.newschoolfreepress.com/2024/05/20/new-school-trustees-will-hold-a-vote-on-divestment-from-israel/Freddy Perlman's Continuing Appeal of Nationalism essay: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fredy-perlman-the-continuing-appeal-of-nationalismEndnotes essay mentioned: https://endnotes.org.uk/posts/the-encampments-for-gazahttps://endnotes.org.uk/posts/s-prasad-introduction-to-waiting-for-the-massacrePostone essays:https://www.workersliberty.org/files/100205postone.pdfhttps://determinatenegation.wordpress.com/2021/06/12/moishe-postone-stammheim-and-tel-zataar-1977/Song: Lil Wayne - Pure Columbia

This episode we a classic Moishe Postone essay in an attempt to further our understanding of the abstract domination of capital, and how misunderstandings of it tend to very often manifest themselves in violent and unspeakable ways. Reading: "Anti-semitism and National Socialism" (1980) by Moishe Postone Send us a question, comment or valid concern: auxiliarystatements(at)gmail.com DISCORD: https://discord.gg/a4ZpAg4G

Con Adrián Almazán, docente y escritor; y Pedro Coiro, traductor del libro. ¿Podrá el capitalismo encontrar energía suficiente para satisfacer sus necesidades? Para responder a esta pregunta Sandrine Aumercier polemiza con distintos análisis elaborados desde corrientes ecologistas, marxistas y antindustriales. Su ensayo sigue la estela de autores como Robert Kurz, Moishe Postone o Anselm Jappe (autor del prólogo), actualizando sus planteamientos. Relaciona la crisis energética con la crisis del valor que se produce en el seno del sistema capitalista, refutando la tesis tecnoptimista según la cual la máquina nos liberará del trabajo.

This special holiday episode of SPS comes in three parts: (1) In order to make sense of the present, Platypus is hosting an international series of panels "Left Perspectives on the Israel-Palestine Conflict". In the first segment, member Gabe G. and Pamela N. reflect on the first panel of the series, which took place at the University of Chicago. They take up disagreements as well as the assumed agreement and the response from the audience. (2) In the second segment you'll hear soundbites and brief interviews from pro-Palestine rallies recorded by our members in Philadelphia and Auckland, New Zealand. (3) The third part is a deep dive into the Platypus archives. The current conflict has prompted Rebekkah and Lisa to speak with our member Ian M. about past engagements from our archives. They talked about the founding moment of Platypus as well as past panel initiatives on the politics of solidarity and decolonization. References from the Segment Reflecting on the Israel-Palestine Panel - Teach-in Pamela N.: History and Helplessness (UChicago, 09 November 2023) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9BX4HGK1m8&t=148s&ab_channel=PlatypusAffiliatedSociety - Left Perspectives On The Israel Palestine Conflict (Platypus UChicago, 29 November 29 2023) https://youtu.be/Nw0Rc_3Hn88?si=OX1c-WYyfWvSIb7S
 - Left Perspectives On The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (Platypus Oregon State University, November 29, 2023) https://youtu.be/lDnRfYh5tLs?si=qtf2XnPfjLs5jsG - Imperialism! What is it, and why should we be against it? (Platypus Melbourne, 02 December 2023) https://www.youtube.com/live/rLSj2IZOgpg?si=S4QMnYg_NpH5mgeF - Linke Perspektiven auf den Nahostkonflikt (Platypus Germany, 03 December 2023) https://youtu.be/OGkf83h52MY?si=BHi0Dz_WKWl2_lGX - Left Perspectives On The Israel Palestine Conflict (Platypus London, 14 December 2023) https://archive.org/details/left-perspectives-on-the-israel-palestine-conflict-platypus-london - The Politics of War and Peace (Platypus Northwestern University, 17 November 2023) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACIzgf-mEi8&ab_channel=PlatypusAffiliatedSociety References from the Archive Segment: - 2006: Moishe Postone, “History and helplessness: Mass mobilization and contemporary forms of anticapitalism” https://platypus1917.org/wp-content/uploads/readings/postonemoishe_historyhelplessness.pdf - 2008: Ian Morrison, “Ba'athism and the history of the Left in Iraq: Violence and politics” https://platypus1917.org/2008/03/01/baathism-and-the-history-of-the-left-in-iraq-violence-and-politics/ - 2010: Against the status quo: An Interview with Iranian trade unionist Homayoun Pourzad https://platypus1917.org/2010/01/08/against-the-status-quo-an-interview-with-iranian-trade-unionist-homayoun-pourzad/ - 2021: Panel "The Politics of Solidarity: Israel, Palestine, and the Left" w/ Yoav Gal Tamir (Da'am Workers' Party), Arash Azizi (Left Party of Iran {People's Fedaian), Marco (Angry Workers of the World), Moshé Machover (founder - Israeli Socialist Organisation and its publication Matzpen) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORoCuGAPheQ&t=12s - 2010: Which Way Forward for Palestinian Liberation? (w/ Richard Rubin, Joel Kovel, Hussein Ibish) https://platypus1917.org/2010/04/08/which-way-forward-for-palestinian-liberation-platypus-review/ - 2023: Panel "Decolonisation and the Left" w/ Ralph Leonard, James Heartfield, Andrew Sanchez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfScpu06K_o - ​​2010: Initiative Sozialistisches Forum, “Communism and Israel” https://platypus1917.org/2010/10/08/communism-and-israel/ - 2023: Teach-in Pamela N.: History and Helplessness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9BX4HGK1m8&t=148s&ab_channel=PlatypusAffiliatedSociety - 2023: Teach-in Lucy P.: The Anti War Movement, Platypus And The Death Of The Millennial Left https://archive.org/details/antiwarmovementteach-in Platypus European Conference, 25 - 27 Jan. 2024 in Berlin https://100yearsafterlenin.com/

Please support our patreon.  For early and ad-free episodes, members-only content, and more.Chris Cutrone and Spencer Leonard are two of the founding and early members of the Platypus Affiliated Society.  What do the origins of the Platypus Affiliated Society, postmodernism's influence on Marxism, and the current state of the left have in common? Join us as we delve into these topics and more with Chris and Spencer, two of the three founders of Platypus. Their fascinating journey began with a request to intervene at a 2006 SWP UK Marxism Conference, and their friendship and intellectual connections have continued to shape their political philosophies since then.From the generational chasm between Gen X and Millennial Leftists to examining how postmodernism serves as a critique of the Enlightenment, our conversation covers a wide range of thought-provoking topics. We also discuss the controversial teaching of Foucault in universities, the impact of David Harvey's Condition of Modernity, Hardt and Negri's Empire, and Moishe Postone's Time, Labor and Social Domination course.As Chris and Spencer share their unique perspectives on the paths that led them into the Platypus organization, the influences of their undergraduate and graduate school experiences, and their exposure to different political ideologies, we gain a fresh understanding of the current state of the left. We also explore the impact of the Trump era on the DSA and Sanders left, and the role of political disappointments in shaping the politics of a new generation. Don't miss this engaging and insightful episode!Abandon all hope ye who subscribe here.   Crew:Host: C. Derick VarnAudio Producer: Paul Channel Strip  ( @aufhebenkultur )Intro and Outro Music by Bitter Lake.Intro Video Design: Jason MylesLinks and Social Media:twitter: @skepoetFacebookYou can find the additional streams on Youtube Support the showCrew:Host: C. Derick VarnAudio Producer: Paul Channel Strip ( @aufhebenkultur )Intro and Outro Music by Bitter Lake.Intro Video Design: Jason MylesArt Design: Corn and C. Derick VarnLinks and Social Media:twitter: @skepoetYou can find the additional streams on Youtube

Premium Episode 215: Structural Antisemitism feat Sean KB When it comes to the market, you need to trust the plan. We explore how capitalism mystifies itself by generating alternate explanations for our steady immiseration. Perhaps the most popular among them? Antisemitism. Sean KB from the Antifada podcast guest writes an episode about Canadian historian and social theorist Moishe Postone's theory of Structural Antisemitism. Thanks for supporting us on patreon! Sean KB: https://twitter.com/as_a_worker
The Antifada Podcast: http://fans.fm/theantifada Music by Pontus Berghe. Editing by Corey Klotz. http://qanonanonymous.com Moishe Postone's Structural Antisemitism and National Socialism: 
https://critantisemnetwork.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/postoneclassic.pdf

Chris Cutrone of the Platypus Affiliated Society returns in order to both defend and transcend what Moishe Postone called "Traditional Marxism." The conversation is, as always, freewheeling and covers a variety of topics. Watch Doug try to keep up as Cutrone gallops ahead.

Le livre :  Moishe Postone, Critique du fétiche capital: Le capitalisme, l'antisémitisme et la gauche, PUF.  Pour aller plus loin :  Interview de Moishe Postone :  https://blogs.mediapart.fr/luc-rigal/blog/190319/le-sionisme-l-antisemitisme-et-la-gauche-moishe-postone  La chaîne YouTube : PolitikonSoutenir sur UTIP---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------FACEBOOKTWITTER Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

In the Spring of 1990 Andrew Apter and Moishe Postone were relatively new faculty at the University of Chicago. Both would go on to become highly regarded teachers and scholars.

Episode Notes Margaret talks to author and organizer Shane Burley about fascism: what it is, why it comes up during times of crisis, and what we can do about it. They discuss the ways that we organize as anti-authoritarians to confront the ultimate authoritarianism. Shane Burley is the author of Why We Fight: Essays on Fascism, Resistance, and Surviving the Apocalypse (AK Press, 2021) and Fascism Today: What It Is and How to End It (AK Press, 2017). His work has appeared in places such as NBC News, Jacobin, Al Jazeera, The Baffler, The Daily Beast, Truthout, In These Times, and Protean. He also runs the antifascist neofolk blog A Blaze Ansuz. You can find him on Twitter: @shane_burley1. The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. You can support her and this show on Patreon at patreon.com/margaretkilljoy. Transcript 1:16:24 SPEAKERS Shane Burley, Margaret Margaret   Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the End Times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy, I use she or they pronouns. And this week I'm talking to author and researcher Shane Burley about, well about fascism, about what it is and why it comes up during times of crisis and what we can do about it and the ways that we organize as antiauthoritarians to confront the ultimate authoritarianism which is, you know, fascism. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on the network.  Jingle Speaker 1   Where did you get this?  Jingle Speaker 2   Your friendly neighborhood anarchist.  Jingle Speaker 3   More of an anarchist militant.  Jingle Speaker 4   People involved in social struggles. Everybody else. Jingle Speaker 5   People have been waiting for some content. The Final Straw. [inaudible] Thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org. Margaret   So I'm here today with author and activist Shane Burley. And if you want to introduce yourself with I guess your name, which I already said, and your pronouns, and then I guess a bit of your background and how you come to know a bit about the apocalypse and fascism.  Shane Burley   Sure, sure. So Shane Burley, he/him or them, both a fine. I'm based out here in Portland, and recently just wrote a book, a collection of essays sort of tying together fascism, antifascism, and the kind of feeling of the apocalypse. I've been an organizer for all my adult life, labor, mutual aid groups, housing groups particularly, and part of kind of integrated social movements on both coasts, and have definitely seen a certain kind of crisis set in—maybe a longstanding crisis—but when that really came into fruition in 2020. So the feeling of the apocalypse was something I felt like I knew really well. And it's how I became—began to kind of understand the last few years within the narrative of apocalypse, particularly kind of the religious apocalypse that a lot of us were raised with. Margaret   Okay. And that's kind of interesting to me because usually when I think about the apocalypse, and when I—when I talk about it, I actually don't think much or talk much about the religious apocalypse, like—and so that's actually a little bit outside my own purview. And I was wondering if you could expand on that, because I mean, like, I have ideas about how the current world relates to societal collapse in a secular sense. But could you explain more what you mean about religious apocalypse? Shane Burley   You know, I think a piece of it comes to how I kind of understand religion or maybe spiritual practices as a sort of folk tradition for understanding our emotions, our experiences, our relationships, both kind of small, interpersonal, but also like big social systems. And so, you know, the apocalypse is something that's such—one of those ever present—kind of perennial concepts in people's folk traditions, trying to understand themselves in the world. It can be sometimes cyclical, there's many apocalypses and many rebirths, that kind of thing could be one, long standing apocalypse. But I talk about this in my book is that, you know, I had a lot of religious terror growing up in advance of the millennium. And so, you know, I was born in 1984. So I was a teenager when, you know, what the Y2K happened. But in the years leading up to that when I was still pretty young, there was this really intensive feeling that apocalypse talk was starting to happen, particularly the kind of Christian eschatology of Revelation, the rapture, and that really sort of captivated me in the worst possible way. And something I bonded—that fear I bonded on with my mother, because she had been captivated by that when she grew up Pentecostal in kind of rural California. And so that feeling of terror about what could happen, the end of the world, that stuck with me for a very long time, and not in entirely bad ways it's—and to a degree it's kind of the narrative story I give to the emotions of feeling trapped and not sure what's about to happen or feeling like things are kind of falling to pieces. And that narrative quality sometimes helps me step back and kind of understand it. And I think, after Trump's election, a real ramping up of climate collapse, economic—just totally dissolving, watching capitalism basically begin to break apart—there was that feeling. I felt like I was 10 years old again, you know, hearing about Revelation. It felt the same. And then when I was actually putting the book together it became so obvious because when I was writing the introduction, the smoke from the forest fires out in Oregon had literally blotted out the sun. And it had this kind of sickening red glow that covered everything. And people saw photos of it, you know, they were not photoshopped, it really, really was that profoundly kind of disturbing. And so it felt like it was unmistakable that there was a continuity here, that this kind of story of the apocalypse was one that was really coming to fruition more so than it had as an adult. You know, it was ephemeral when I was a kid, it was in my mind, but this was actually coming around me, and so I started to kind of understand it in that way. Margaret   How do you think that—because I mean, most of your work, you know, when when you message me and you're saying, "Hey I, you know, I wrote this book on the apocalypse," and I was kind of like, "No, no, no, you write about fascism." Because obviously, anyone can only do one thing and obviously I'm a living example of that. But, you know, in some ways in my mind the religious aspect of it almost answers this for me in a different way than I normally think about, again, because I, I think about the world somewhat in religious terms, but I was not raised in the same kind of—I was raised a lapsed Catholic, you know, and the apocalypse wasn't something that we really talked about. I tend to think of fascism as rising in this very, very secular way. Like I think about like the material conditions or whatever, like almost like a materialist rise of fascism or something. And, and yet, I guess there's also this, well, this religious rise of fascism quite obviously. And I was wondering if you could talk about that. Why is fascism on the rise now? Shane Burley   Yeah, there's a lot there. I, I just talked about this with someone else because they had asked me why in any of my work I don't cite Marxist theories on fascism. I never do. You know, and this is like, the kind of like, well Trotsky is the kind of thing people like to cite a lot. But there's a lot of versions of this to talk about, you know, it's the splitting of the middle class, or it's the, you know, the artisan classes meet with—there's all these kind of class dimensions that are meant to kind of tell that material story. Like this, you know, A+B=C, these conditions have been met, therefore this happened. And I don't actually think in those terms. I think in not anti-materialist terms, but I actually think about it in the ways that ideology is forced because I actually think that the conditions are much more muted than had been written about, you know, it's not as specific. There's a sort of this term, I use it in the book bunch of times, it's from Robert Paxton, which is "mobilizing passion." So it's like the energy that comes from a crisis. This could go into a left wing direction, could go into a right wing direction. Generally in privileged communities that goes into a more right wing direction. And I think that that—those conditions, quote/unquote, are this simple—that's the—that is as simple as it gets. It's just that kind of crisis can lead to it. There are kind of other factors that go in and sort of geopolitics. But what I think is more important is to think about it as a crisis of identity, of breaking of, you know, the tried—attempts to return to tradition for people to kind of parse out who they are, and—I think that that story of fascism is actually what brings us continuity from interwar years.  Margaret   Okay. Shane Burley   Because those conditions that happened in Europe and in a few countries. Yeah, they showed no permanent stasis for how those conditions will be carried over. What happened in Germany, what happened to Italy—like in terms of the economy and those sorts of things—aren't going to happen exactly today. But what does drive them together is this crisis sense of rebirth, the the—the reification of human inequality, those sorts of things. And so we're heading to a period of a lot of instability brought on by climate collapse, economic collapse, that kind of thing. And so I think that you're seeing that tumultuous is as much of material conditions as you need. Margaret   Yeah, that um—okay, let me pitch to you my theory about the rise of fascism and how it ties into what you're saying.  Shane Burley   Oh go for it. Margaret   It's a very pessimistic theory because when people ask me, I basically say that like in the 20th century we were sort of able to defeat fascism, like, as an organized political entity on some level. Obviously we didn't defeat authoritarianism. We did defeat nationalism. We didn't defeat all of these other things. But I kind of think we never will be able to again, because—not that we can't like a beat it down. But my theory is that basically as climate change makes more resources scarce to more people, it—and makes more places unliveable, there will be mobility of people and there will always be people who respond to the mobility of people with like fear and scarcity and complete sort of ignorance of how labor creates all wealth and that more people means you can do more things. And so there's always going to be people who have like the "I've got mine, fuck you" response to crisis. And I just see that crisis deepening as climate change sets in. I don't know, does that map with what you're talking about? Shane Burley   Yeah, I think he does. And I think this is gets down to that kind of collapsing of the middle that's been used a lot—why you have the radicalization of both the left and the right. Because this kind of centrist modicum of liberal politics is built on stability, it's built on the idea that this current system—which feels like it's lasted forever but it's only been here a short period of time—that's gonna, that's going to continue. And actually, when you're having increased crisis, you actually have the edges built out. And so part of, I think—part of what I think antifascists actually bring—and particularly like radicals anarchists actually bring to the antifascist project—is a battle for who owns the edges in general. So like, you're saying, we have this crisis of migration—it's not actually crisis, is totally invented by folks who are enemies of migration. But it does create that sense of crisis, and we actually end up engaging in a war with them for how we're going to approach that. Is this period of crisis going to strengthen us as a people through a revolutionary vision? Or is it going to divide us into these nationalisms that are kind of worn out? I do think that in a way we have a choice between socialism and barbarism here, that there—like we're actually going to—we kinda have to win it, otherwise somebody else is going to. So I think, like, I half agree with the pessimism. I think that there—we could be pessimistic about this. But we actually are kind of called to question on this. So we are having the question call on us right now. Like, are we going to take the challenge of the fringes to a degree? Are we going to look at this moment of crisis and say, "No, we're going to tip over and create a new revolutionary society out of that crisis." Because we don't have a choice now, it's not a matter of pushing back the crisis and trying to retain some kind of progressively moving forward center, that just can't happen anymore. The conditions don't allow for that. So instead, we have to live in the crisis. Margaret   Okay, so basically—so maybe it's not that we can't beat them this next time, it's that the center can't beat them this time. Right. Like, like a very centrist—I mean, you know, obviously, all—anything you call centrist depends on what perspective you're looking at, right. But like, theoretically, an alliance of sort of centrist powers defeated, you know, the far right last time. Shane Burley   Yeah totally. Margaret   The tankies listening will love that I'm calling the USSR centrist. But that's more polite than what I would normally call the USSR. So and—so this time it actually has to be the radical left, it has to be socialism, it has to be the idea of, like, we're all in it together to some degree, as like the only way to actually try and keep it beaten down which then maybe—I'm just trying to repeat back what you're saying, cuz I'm trying to, I'm trying to think it through. So you're saying that the thing we have to do is that when people are leaving the center, we have to help them leave the center in a good direction instead of a bad direction? Is that kind of where you're getting up? Shane Burley   Yeah, I think—I mean, in a way it's just a call to everyday radicalism to like not abandon any communities, to offer them like a tangible vision. I mean, part of the problem here is that the left loses. And the left loses so consistently, so spectacularly, that it's hard to maintain the argument at certain times, we have a revolutionary vision to offer. We abandoned certain communities, we disregard so many types of folks. And so we actually have to build that up and have a real viable alternative and the ability to win something from it. You know, like, part of why the centrist powers—you know, the great global powers—were able to defeat fascism is that they had something to offer, they were offering, like, you know, stable homes, they were—I mean, they weren't really everyone, but there was an image of it, there's like a certain kind of, like, white middle class that developed in the 50s and stuff, and they were making these arguments. All of those promises have had the rug pulled out from under them. They're all kind of revealed to be such a fraud. And people are living with that reality now. And so we—in a way we have the ability to capture that energy, and we have to deal with like a cogent vision, something really profound to offer. And I actually think that 2020 was a good example of what we have to offer, which is we don't have money and things like that, we have each other. We have the ability to share things and do it together. Margaret   But what if instead of creating a viable alternative and creating really good visions of what we want, what if instead we create a sort of pure elite click of radicals and then anyone who doesn't totally align with us we abandon to the center and/or the right. Have you thought about that as a as an option? Shane Burley   Let's just create affinity groups and do little a like ideology test before people can join, you know, that will be the vision of the revolutionary future. It was something—someone was asking me about, like, the things that—the things that 2020 did wrong. Like, the few different things that organizers did wrong. I just—my answer was the revival of the affinity group as a model of success. Nothing felt more alienating or most more closed off, more impactful for most people. Margaret   So I want to push back against that idea. And maybe it's defensiveness, right. But I think that the concept of the affinity group isn't inherently flawed—like this concept, for anyone who's listening isn't aware, as far as I understand that the concept of the affinity group is that one of the primary makers of change that you can participate in is basically you, like, crew up with some of your friends and you figure out what you want to do and then you do it together. And you have like, really tight solidarity within that group. And it's a, it's a means that has, like, primarily been pushed towards, like, direct actions and demonstrations and things like that, right? It hasn't been leveraged as much in mass actions, and, you know, labor actions and things like that. But it has been used to, like, mutual aid organizing and things. But I don't know, this something—actually is really interesting. This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. I've been thinking about how people do and don't come to the left, and specifically the anarchist left or the anti authoritarian left or the anarchic left or basically the "we can't, we're not going to tell you exactly what to do" left. And on some level, we can tell people like, "Hey, here's a bunch of really good ideas." And they can be like, "Oh, cool. I want to join." And we don't usually have a good system for which—by which they can join, right? Because especially if we organize an affinity groups, it's like, well, we organize with our friends and we don't know you, you're not our friend.  Shane Burley   Yeah.  Margaret   So good luck. We have your back in the streets, probably, maybe, if we know you. I mean, ideally, right? As compared to people who organize, like, I think both churches and to some degree the right wing—well the far right actually, I think, has some of the same organizing problems that the left does. But it immediately becomes your friend group if you go join other types of organizations, right. And it provides a sense of meaning. And I would hold that it's actually a sense of meaning and affinity that holds most people into politics, into an ideology or a culture. So I see some, like, real limitations to the affinity group. But I also don't think it's wrong that people want to, like, organize with the people that they know and they care about. And I actually think it makes us more resistant to certain types of ideological takeovers and like— Shane Burley   It does. Margaret   —strong figureheads and things like that. But I, I just, I think we need to solve this problem of like, how do you give people places, like , you know, my argument that I've been making lately—sorry, I know, that was me interviewing you and I just, I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't get to talk to humans all that much.  Shane Burley   No, go for it. You're good.  Margaret   I've been thinking a lot about, like, what does it mean to instead of gatekeeping on the left, like, usher. Be an usher for the left, right? It's like, helping people find the place that they belong, which might not be with you, you know? I don't know actually. Okay, so that's my like vague defensiveness. But I'd like to hear your critique of the affinity group before we get back into what is fascism and how to fight it. Shane Burley   I mean, I—I think I fundamentally agree with you and I, in all my years organizing and doing things, it is strong bonds and ideas and ideology that actually keep people there. There's this mythic idea that someone joins organizing through a perfect storm of experiences that are validated non political ways, you know, like, they were about to lose their house and the tenant union came in, they saved it and they join the movement. Now they're radical, that's the way you do it. Not, you know, I knew somebody or somebody introduced an idea to me at a party or something. Like, that's the "bad way" to come. And so no, and I also think it's important to work towards depolitisizing spaces. I don't like and I was—I've been in a number of these groups when I was younger that had this almost, like, discouraging people from being like intimately involved with each other as people, you know, as if that would weaken the project.  Margaret   Right..  Shane Burley   But what I'm—I think, when I'm talking about more is that there is a real lack of, like you said, moving people into things, of finding ways to get people included, to reaching out to them. So you know, over 2020 there's a lot of mutual aid projects. And I remember trying to touch base with a number of them—and this, this is something this is—this is something I've talked to other people about, I think it's a tough situation. It's partly, you know, getting older is part of this, maybe not feeling as tender to radical spaces as you get older. You know, I know that like having chronic health issues or experiencing disability, things like that will sometimes pull you out of those things. And I remember feeling like very tough to feel like I had a home space in the mass protests that were happening in 2020. And often feeling like people were moving without me or kind of chase—trying to chase those groups because the tight affinity group model was based on something that I wasn't invited to and a lot of people weren't invited to. And so that, if that's the the tight knit entry to it, it ends up I think having kind of a heartbreak for a lot of people that have not been able to find their way into it. And so that's sort of the thing is, if we have too many boundaries on it, and we haven't found that way of actually getting people to form that, it almost feels like a, like a romantic dream, the affinity group that you'll never have. Margaret   Yeah, which has, like, I've always been a, you know, perpetual outsider, right? Like, there's any group I'm in, I always am convinced forever that I'm, like, not really the—I'm not part of the core of it, you know, they like, you know, when I was younger I was like, people don't even tolerate me here. Which may have been true, might not have been true. It was kind of annoying. And then as I get older, it's like, oh, they tolerate me, because I'm, like, interesting, but I'm not part of it. Right. And I think that that's actually a very common sentiment. I've talked to a lot of—a lot of anarchists who have that feeling despite being part of a sometimes really cliquey culture.  Shane Burley   Oh, absolutely. Yeah.  Margaret   So yeah, that's, uh, I don't know, that's a good point. It's funny because I'm like, well, I didn't experience that that much in 2020 because I wasn't super involved in the streets like I went sometimes, right. But I didn't work with an affinity group I tested riot materials and made shields and— Shane Burley   Yeah that was great. Margaret   —ran a podcast, you know. It's like I found, I found my, like, individual ways to help. And I really like that and maybe idealize that, where it's like, oh, everyone has their thing they can do and all I have to do is figure how to like, plug all these puzzle pieces together. Shane Burley   In that way it's like, the more you need those affinity group support—and the kind of support that goes far beyond just organizational support, like the ones that really intervene in your life in a way—the more you need, that, the harder it is to find, you know. I remember years ago both my parents died in like really rapid succession. And I felt like I forgot how to talk to other people, you know, I'd just kind of stare in conversations for a really long time, much longer than people would have expected. And I think, in a way, you know, the political spaces I was doing stuff, people's reaction was that—on that—was to sort of back away from me. And to make it so that all the expectations that come along, both spoken and unspoken, I no longer could meet, therefore I couldn't really be there. You know, I couldn't travel to meetings, I couldn't necessarily be as dependable as I used to be, all those sorts of things. Really dramatically pulled me out of a shared space of mutual aid. So I spent a lot of time thinking, like, what would it mean to flip that script? What how would we create something that, like, not just, like, creates a stable mutual aid but, like, seeks people out? That kind of like grasps after them? And I don't—it's not like I have a great answer about that. But I do like the idea that that's like our mission.  Margaret   Yeah. Shane Burley   Is to, like, constantly like reaching out towards them. Margaret   I think that's like one of the biggest questions that we have to ask ourselves as a, as antiauthoritarians, because we have to say, you know, it's so much easier when you can say, "Well, here's the plan. We all do this, which Joe over there told us to do, you know, and all praise Joe, and we'll get this done." You know, and then because someone is, like, lost and they don't know what to do with their life, right? It's like cults recruit that way. So do fringe ideological movements. You know, so do churches, all of these three things are roughly the same thing sometimes. And, you know, it's very effective, but it's predatory. Right? You know, it's like, I always say that, like, antiauthoritarian revolutionists, we're playing—we're playing the game on hard mode, but it's also the only way to get the good ending if it's a video game, you know? Like, if you play it on easy you actually, no matter what you do, you get the bad ending. You have to play on hard mode to get to the good ending where we don't create more tyranny. Shane Burley   This is, I mean, it's also a question of, like, organizing in general. You know, I remember being part of groups where the term "social insertion" was used a lot, you know. Which led to lots of great jokes, but like, it was this idea that, like, you know, you have an analysis, that analysis is well forged—you know, many—lots of people have got into this thing. And so you're going to go into a social movement and you're going to help shape it in a positive direction. You're inserting into this. But you're not predatory. No, no. Because you really believe in that social movement, right. Therefore, you can't be predatory. It's not entryism because you're totally well intentioned. It—now I, you know, when you look back a lot—and this is the foundation of organizing in general, you know, anyone that has like, you know, be like a union organizer talks about, like, agitational conversations. You draw people's trauma, you agitate it, and then you move it towards a path, right? Like that's the function of the classic organizing. But it does, there's a lot—like you are really going in there with the intention of moving people at vulnerable stages, moving people's projects at vulnerable stages. It's a, it's a really tough balance. And it's not one that I think is perfect. There's been a lot of times in these organized spaces where I'll see these conversations happen and I'm just like, I don't feel good about this. I feel like I was just, you know, selling somebody a Macbook or something. Margaret   Yeah, I mean, you know, it's something I think about with, like, it's easier for me to think about with like my veganism, right. I don't seek to proselytize veganism. Like, one, I just straight up don't believe it's the answer for everybody. You know, some people don't even have a question so why would they need an answer? But when people come to me, and they're like, oh, what's the deal? Why do you do this? I'm very happy to talk about it. Right? And say, like, this is why it works for me. And I kind of tried to do that with anarchism, but it, you know, but it feels a little bit more urgent, right? With anarchism. But that urgency is dangerous, right? It's the same thing as like a Christian missionary because, you know, a Christian missionary, you have to go do this because you're literally saving people from eternal damnation. And so there's this, like, similar drive sometimes into saying, like, well, there's oppression and anti-oppression, and I need to teach everyone anti-oppression. And it's true. But also, it's not going to work until people are ready to like come to it which, of course, also doesn't have any reflections within the church and come to Jesus. I don't know. Yeah, the social insertion thing always bothered me even though I on some level, right, I do it, but I do it subculturally, right. If I'm involved with a subculture I try to like stake out a presence for, like, radical ideas within that subculture that, like, come from that subculture, you know. I'll try and say, like, well, I'm involved in goth and here's all the, like, things that I reflect well with about the goth subculture that work with my values as an anarchist. And I'll definitely like tell people that. And in my head that's different than saying, like, I'm going to demand that all goth spaces be leftist. I might demand that all goth spaces be free of Nazis. But that's only to do my part to make sure the entire world is free of Nazis. Shane Burley   I feel almost like less conflicted when it comes to a subcultural space. You know, so it's like, you know, like, we've talked about, like, neofolk and stuff. Like, I am entering a neofolk space to change the rules and kick out all the Nazis totally intentionally, like, I—like they should be scared. It's a nefarious plan. We want to eliminate them from the space entirely. But, like, when someone's sort of, like, sharing their, like, human vulnerability, I feel like we need to hold that with care, you know, and sometimes that's a really tough balancing act. You know, there's, there's a lot—I mean, I used to feel uncomfortable with the radical politics-to-church analogy, but it's very true. And in a lot of ways, just common human impulses, right, to try and come together with other people figure out a solution for this mess. You know, we have our own version of eschatology. We have our own version of the Second Coming, like, all those sorts of things, in a way, I feel like maybe it's a common human story just told with profoundly different language. And so I it's—I mean, this was true all in 2020, because there was so much trauma. Just—all of the kind of political friction was built on trauma, all the transitions were traumatic ones. So the question was, how do you radicalize this moment but also, like, really holding true to supporting people through that trauma. Margaret   So this idea of how—I'm answering the beginning of what he said instead of the end of what he said because I got fixated on it. This idea of, like, you entered the subculture and you kick the Nazis out, right, and that is your, your entryism. That is your, you know, I'm trying to change this. And it's interesting because it's, that's different than saying, "I'm going to enter neofolk and make it an anarchist space." But instead it's saying, "I'm going to enter neofolk and to make it a space that is okay for me and mine and my, like, leftism, and drive out the Nazis." And so, I actually do think that's different than like walking in and saying, "Everyone needs to be this." And so that's actually, I think that reflects onto, like, antifascism as a larger movement. I think this answers the question of how to change the world perfectly and we've solved everything. Is that antifascism—you know, it's like people use anarchists and antifascism almost interchangeably if they're talking shit in the media, right? And also, like, you know, historically, right, like you know, anarchists are the forefront of antifascism and then also, if you look at the period in which, you know, authoritarian left was like not really a player on the scene for, like, until more recently again, you know, anarchism, antifascism were fairly synonymous, right? But it's different because it's saying, we want to drive out the Nazis, like, we want to stop Naziism and make it okay for us to be anarchists or anarchic or, you know, some other leftist position that is a reasonable one. And then when we do that the thing that we're united about is drive out the Nazis. And I find that that, like, naturally tends towards people being, like, "Hey, what are the alternatives to the Nazis?" And like thinking more for the—on their own, "How do I get involved in making sure I'm part of a society that has no room for Nazis, period." And then come to the left and that way. Shane Burley   It's sort of like capturing another mobilizing passion too, you know. Like, the passion of music, or of a musical space or a subculture—so there's a lot of really emotive experiences in there that somebody else is capturing. Like somebody else is telling that story. We're not there. And so it's a totally contested space. And I think there's a chapter in the book that talks about this. But it's, it ends up being a [inaudible] struggle. That's one that's like so overlooked in a lot of political groups, they look kind of down on that or don't see it as productive work because they don't want their movements and remain subcultural so they avoid engaging in subcultural struggle. The other part is you kind of have to be a part of that subculture to deal with any sicerity.  Margaret   Right.  Shane Burley   But it is something where you're sort of like saying, I'm not allowing these people to take energy anymore. Like we are, like, it's like a war for that energy and space.  Margaret   Yeah, because I think people are attracted to subculture for the same reason that they're attracted in some ways to ideology, which is that they desire a sense of meaning. And I would say subculture is usually more about, like, aesthetic meaning, right? Which is incredibly valid, and I care about it deeply as a person. And yeah, like, subculturalism gets a lot of shit. And actually, I think it's comparable to the way affinity groups get shit, right? Because, like, if you have the cool kids and you're not one of them, then it's really natural and actually an antiauthoritarian and good urge to be, like, well then fuck the cool kids. Right?  Shane Burley   Yeah.  Margaret   But and I think we—  Shane Burley   I've always said, fuck the cool kids, for sure.  Margaret   Yeah. And then what's funny is then you end up being the cool kids who say fuck the cool kids and you're like, you can't join because you have a baseball cap, and then you're like—or whatever. I don't know what the cool kids I—well, all the cool hipster anarchist all have baseball caps now anyway. But, you know, it's like, you're like a normal guy wearing khakis, you can't join, you know, because fuck you. It's like, nah, you're actually just being the cool kids. But, so if we—people who don't like subculturalism within radical politics, it makes sense, right? If you think—if you conflate punk and anarchy, right? And you're not a punk, you therefore think, well, I'm, I can't be an anarchist. And as a—and then probably there's a bunch of dumb punks who are like, "Oh, the fact that I'm a squatter is the only good real way to be an anarchist." Right? And so then, you know, they're gatekeeping, anarchism, etc, right? And I find that the answer is not to then, like—I remember when all of a sudden all the punks, like, started trying to dress as normal as possible in order to, like, infiltrate the mainstream.  Shane Burley   Yeah.  Margaret   And I think some people did that to infiltrate the mainstream, but I actually think most of them did it because they actually wanted to dress normal, or dress in a different aesthetic than they were previously. And they were actually making room for you to dress in a different aesthetic within the radical movement. And so I think that's good. I think that the, like—my answer has always been we just need to make every subculture a space that engenders radicalism, you know, and we need to—and then we just need to make sure that they all, like, get along with each other where it's not, like, "Oh, well you're, you know, you're into metal that's dumb" or whatever, right? Shane Burley   You know, I think in a way—I don't know if this is a step too far—but a liberated society is a web of very collaborative subcultures. You know? Because people, people are different, they'll have different tastes, religions, like, you know, ways of living life, diets, things like that. And the goal is to allow people with different while eliminating nationalism and like those dividing lines and hierarchies. And so I respect people's subcultures. And a lot of—you know, I talked about—I have a chapter in the book called "Contested Space," and I talk about neofolk, I talk about heathenry a lot. A lot of these things like, if you—when you talk to antiracist heathens, you ask them why you do this work they're like, "Because nobody else will care. They'll just give this away to people," right? Like, people don't care about our subcultures, except for us. And to remain true to that, like, we're the only ones that can do it. So it becomes, in a way, a really essential political struggle because the struggle to, like, whether or not we have the ability to create spaces that really reflect us. Margaret   Yeah. Shane Burley   And a lot of ways like all these Nazi infiltrations into a lot of subcultures is like a direct attack on our ability to, like, enjoy life, to have like an aesthetic way of living. Margaret   Yeah. And then, so this all comes back into this thing where it's like, it's about solidarity instead of unity. It's instead of saying, like, it's not about everyone suddenly becoming the same and all having the same ideas. It's just literally about, like, not hating people for having other different religious ideas, or aesthetic ideas, or even political ideas within a certain frame. Right? As long as the frame allows for other people to have political ideas, you have a lot more freedom to accept them, right? Okay, so how would you describe fascism? And how would you suggest the fight against fascism, what it might look like? Those are probably—those are really simple questions.  Shane Burley   [Laughing] I'll give you, like, 10 word answers then we'll be good.  Margaret   Yeah, listicle maybe. Shane Burley   So in my first book I basically have two [inaudible] in the definition of fascism. So one is the belief in human inequality, that people are fundamentally hierarchical and unequal, for a myriad of reasons, biological or racial or spiritual. And the other thing is that identity is fixed, immutable, and determines who you are. So those identities and the hierarchies are bound together. Race is the most common one you see, but gender plays in there, sexual orientation, sometimes religion, there's other factors case—there's different versions of this that can play out. And but we use intentionally vague language so that you can include a bigger swath of types of far right movements that have that kind of base commonality. Well, part of this is a revolutionary return to a pre-enlightenment way of living or a pre kind of modern way. So you'll take kind of earlier modern racial ideas and try and bring them up to the current day by using, you know, pseudoscience, or reinterpreting spiritual values, things like that. There's a revolutionary element to it, it does seek to basically undermine the basic assumptions of society. So that it can achieve both the hierarchy and the identity models. And it has a populist element to it. And that's, I think, one thing that gets sometimes lost in this and it particularly gets lost in some of the older kind of Marxist tropes about finance capital, or monopoly capital, things like that, is that the working class does fascism, the white working class in particular does it in a really mass level. People participate in fascism, it's not just happening from the top, it actually happens in a lot of ways from the bottom or the middle. But it happens from mass complicity. And the violence is a really central part of that as well, because violence is kind of understood as the fulcrum of hierarchy and identity. It's how politics happens in this kind of revolutionary cycle. It's turning back on the center with a new revolutionary, not to turn things back to where it was, but they take the reactionary things they like from the past and modernize them, which is a very complicated series of forces. Why I think it's really hard to answer, you know, there's, you know, hundreds of hundreds of books written about what fascism is and almost none of them actually agree with one another, which makes it really, really hard to fight it. I think—so there's a few things, having a clear understanding of what is fascist and what is not, I think, is really important. And I think that has actually been built up pretty well over the past five or six years, people actually have a much more sophisticated understanding of politics, like just everyday folks, because they've been forced to do it and to really orient to it. The fundamental core way to fight fascism is to disallow its presence. And so fascism has to do all the normal organizing things to grow, it has to talk to people, it has to build sometimes groups, both formal and informal. Deplatforming is the process by which those things seek you no longer have access to other people. So breaking that chain is the fundamental core of antifascism. I think another core piece of that is having a revolutionary vision to offer people that runs counter to that, that exposes the lie for it and actually brings people together in something that really gets at their needs, you know, that really gets at the solutions to economic inequality are the feelings of alienation, the lack of community, those sorts of things. I think that's the other piece of it. Antifascism is an inherently negative thing. And I think we actually kind of caught earlier about why. It's actually a really simple proposition. We're not trying to build everything, we're just trying to stop this one place so we can exist. But when we exist, we do the other thing, right? The other thing is part of how we exist. It's like a civic life, to live a joyous life is to actually build that community. And that's how I kind of—I talked about this in the book. That's how I think of a revolutionary vision is us building something that supports us in our own image, like when we're doing that you're engaging in that revolutionary project. Margaret   Okay. Given like, so basically saying in some ways, it's actually hard to defeat it with centrism, it's hard to defeat it with—certainly anyone who's like disaffected by the status quo is obviously not going to be super attracted to the status quo. One of the things that—okay, so what about like, I'll just pitch my, like, my thing that I think about a lot with how to defeat fascism, is that I think the fascist mindset is an attraction to individual power. And, like, to be strong—maybe community power—but like, to be like strong with your buds, right? And against this thing that you're afraid of. Like, I think that—I think that essentially fascism is a cowardly position. It comes from this—and I—this is like very pejorative, I mean, obviously I love pejoratives to say about Nazis—but like, it comes from this position of fear, right? Like, these people are coming, they will therefore destroy my way of life. I am not strong enough to live my own life if these other people are around. This kind of thing. But also, like, I think people want to get high on power, and especially, like, street level—like, it seems like fascism has historically tended to have a paramilitary element of, like, you know, people run around beating up people that don't like, right? And I think those people are very much attracted to strength. And when they get beat up, it's not fun anymore. Like when they can show up in enough numbers to when it's real fun. And then when they get their asses handed to them, it's not anymore. And maybe this is like kind of leftover from some of them—the pre—like, we've learned a lot about confronting fascism in the past three or four years, right? I'm basing this mostly on my experiences of talking to primarily European, especially Eastern European, antifascists who are doing work, like, over the past, like, 10-20 years, is this idea that like, yeah, when it's not fun anymore, when when you're not strong anymore, you quit. I don't know. Does that? Am I wrong about that? Are we've been proven wrong? Or is that, how does that tie in? Shane Burley   No, I mean, there's, there's a really old through line from like Adorno and folks—like Adorno wrote, you know, "The Authoritarian Personality" about this kind of process, you know, that was really at the heart of what fascism was. I think, you know, I think there's a sort of rebellion against soft power, the idea that power is gained through consensus and compromise and lobbying and persuasion, and like a sort of return to hard power that, like, wins by force and strength, like sort of cuts out all the other stuff. Which feel as though—at least have been told to them—is how things are done now, which is why you're in x, y, and z situation, which is why your life is going nowhere, because of this kind of coercion of softness. Margaret   They can punch their way out of all this talk. Shane Burley   Right, right. And this is a deep, I think this is a deepseated thing in our culture, in general. There's this Marxist named Moishe Postone who wrote this really famous essay on antisemitism called "Antisemitism and National Socialism." And he talks about the commodity form—basically that the way that products are made sort of bifurcates labor. There's like the good labor of, like, artisans, people use their hands. And then there's like the bad labor of, like, finance, capital, or maybe like real estate people, bankers, that kind of thing. But the reality is that both of them are a part of the system, right? They're actually both a piece of capitalism. And really an equal measure. But we don't see it that way. And so we ended up experiencing a bifurcation whereby we start to resent this one type of capital, when we start to like, you know, celebrate the other type of capital. And I think there is a really deeply layered process in that where we create a false image of what's responsible in our lives. And then we look at this sort of producer's mentality of a strong person using their hands, laboring, that honest person, and that person has to be the one that's being kind of attacked by the other person, the other person is basically characterized by their, you know, greedy persuasion and their lies and their, you know, board rooms and their greasy hands and that kind of thing. And so I think we ended up having a culture that helps to build this in, that it helps to tell the story that if you were only to just be strong, and to essentially use violence, you would be able to see through all the petty perversions of society, all the things that make us so sick. If you could just overcome that and be like the artisan instead of the finance capitalist, then you would somehow come out. And I think there's a deep mythology, because what's happening is that story is being told. But then there's real impulses underneath it. People really are losing their homes and they're losing their farms. They really don't know the community, they don't have neighbors, they don't have good jobs, they don't talk to the kids. I mean, those things are real. And so I think that that process—having a real tactile experience, right? It's going out with your buddies in your goofy polo shirts and hitting someone, it feels like you're doing something, right? Like, you're really reaffirming that dichotomy. That's profoundly powerful thing. And I think that, you know, when you see people out in that kind of, those—again, I've been a lot of these Proud Boy rallies where they attack people, and not just Proud Boys, other groups—like, they are as high as people could be. I mean, there's almost like a spiritual dimension to setting yourself up for that kind of violence. It imbues so much meaning in their lives, and they attach so much meaning to it. So I think you're right, I think there's this process about claiming individual power. But the reality is, I mean, you know this, it's not like a secret that that's not power at all. That's maybe one of the weakest things a person can do. What's powerful is coming together with other people and realizing your vulnerability with them. And having the ability to actually change something. Like that's, that's a—I mean, it's infinitely more powerful. But again, we're being told that that's the slimy way of doing things in a way. That that's the, that's the coercive way. That's a soft way. That's the way of liberals and people who have gotten this in this situation in the first place. Margaret   Yeah. And then I think about—I mean, there's like, there's ways that we always have to be on guard. I don't want to say, like, antifascist is the same as fascist. It's just not true, right. Antifascist violence is like an inherently defensive quality that—on the other hand, I mean, I'm sure Nazis would say that theirs is defensive, too, about their way of life or whatever the fuck right? But— Shane Burley   They always frame it as defense.  Margaret   Yeah. Shane Burley   That's, it's so consistent always. Even when—the beginning of the Holocaust they framed is self defense. Margaret   And so then it's like an interesting thing where in some ways I'm saying, well, like, the way is that if you beat them up successfully enough, they go away. And, you know, that is in some ways holding on to hard power or promoting hard power. But yet I—and maybe I'm wrong about this—but okay, there's like this story that has always sat with me. I was talking to an antifascist, an old punk from Asheville who was part of the antifascist kicking out shit, Nazi punks in the 80s. And he was like, well they outnumbered us, right? But we won eventually on some level of driving fascist organizing out of Asheville. And the way we would do it, is we gave them no rest. You see a Nazi, you jump a Nazi. And he was talking about this time where he was, like, walking home, he sees three Nazis, he's alone, and he jumps them. He jumps all three of them. And he gets the shit kicked out of him, right? But it's like—but it still breaks their sense of security and rightness. Because they're not the ones who instigated that, you know? And eventually it kind of drove people away. And, and maybe this is bullshit, but I think about how, like, theoretically—like Nazis will play the underdog card if it's all they got, right? But like, what they—their good card is claiming underdog without being underdog that's like their strong card in their deck. But claiming underdog while being underdog doesn't really work very much because only the most like deeply ideologically committed Nazis stay Nazis in that sense. Everyone else is kind of like, yes, isn't really fun anymore. And again, I don't know if this is outdated. And I wonder—I questioned my own in this case, like, insistence on hard power. And I think that there's all kinds of, like, soft power that goes behind this. And like, it seems like antifascist organizing has at least as long of a history of, like, organizing, and also like counter recruitment, and like, soft stuff.  Shane Burley   You know, it—it's like those things you're indicating, those are actually approached as organizing, right? So it's like never letting you rest. And this is something I've heard from other groups. You know, when I interviewed Rose City Antifa for my last book they said they basically were able to successfully take down Volksfront—which was like a, you know, a big confederation skinhead gang in the 90s centered in Portland—just because they were so tenacious, because they never stopped, right? They made it so impossible. But that was like an organizing project. It actually wasn't just about like building up muscles and taking them down. It was about, like, you know, how do you look at a situation and find all the ways to make them totally unsuccessful, you know, to make them unstable at home and at work. So it was almost like in a way of like, those sorts of things, whether or not they're engaging in physical resistance was almost like a secondary thing to the negotiation of being like a community organizer and being like in that community and thinking—and there's the other different too is that they really are defensive. I mean, people are being pushed to defend themselves because of the violent presence of Nazis if, you know, if neo-nazi skinheads weren't out murdering people in the 80s I doubt a movement of people would have formed to take them on. Like they—their violence was so ever-present that they—people were forced to do it. You know, and I also, as much as people I know there's like, you know, riot porn videos and stuff, I never really hear antifascists doing a ton of celebrations of violence, because I don't think that there's a lot of like joy in that for most folks. Margaret   Yeah. And then I almost think that the ones that have the most joy are the sort of, like, when it's almost like you're like clowning them. Like, obviously, it is not totally the same to put a pie in someone's face as punch them in the face. It's almost like you're doing it to make sure that people laugh at them. You know, like, I just think of the Richard Spencer punch, you know. Like it wasn't, like, he got taken to the ground and, like, you know, kicked to death or something. Right? It was just like, he was talking and now he can't because someone sucker punched him. Shane Burley   Yeah, it was like a humiliate—like a public humiliation. You know, it also, it stops their continuity. I mean, like Richard Spencer could no longer just go talk to a camera anymore, right? It's too uncomfortable to do that. So the function wasn't that, like, stopping them with the fist, it was now they have the specter hangover of not be able to do x, y, and z activity. That work was—I mean, it was so clear with Richard Spencer too because he was so upfront about it. I talked about in the book, too. I mean, like, that's what stopped them was that they could not do the events anymore. So they couldn't do the practical organizing they wanted to do, their organizations really couldn't function anymore. So it was sort of like taking that to its logical conclusion, like, how do you see through the situation and like a real organizer way, which is why I think part of why the left is different—or radicals are different—because it is about a community building project. Because at the fundamental core, it's about how do we realize an actual vibrant, loving community? Margaret   I'm just, like—I mean that's probably what they say. But there's a difference just literally in whether or not ours is about, you know, ours is about inclusion and theirs is about exclusion, you know? Okay, well, how does all this tie into apocalyptic survival, right? We're talking about what is fascism? How do we stop fascism? You know, why—I mean, I know the answer to this, but why am I having you on this prepper podcast? What is—how does how does this tie together? Shane Burley   I think there's a couple things here. I think the first is acknowledging what we're actually living in, which is much more severe than I think where—what is normative to discuss. And I think part of why it, we, we don't encourage that kind of discussion is that we are afraid it would lead to apathy, we're afraid it would lead people to not fight, you know, things like climate change, to not try and push back on, like, emission standards, whatever the reforms are, you know, and I think there's a fear that pushing past that would then disallow us all the kind of both morally and practically accessible things to do. The other thing is just living with the actual reality of where we're at, you know. What's that mean, like, [inaudible] a lot, you were trained to live in a world that no longer exists. That's a really profound thing that we have to kind of sit with. And so I'm now in a situation where in the next couple of months, within a few miles of my house, the entire ancient forests that surround my city will ignite in the flames, right? And they'll blanket everything with a toxic smoke where I'll have to wear a gas mask and we have to use air purifiers. That's, that's what this is now. We can expect that, we put on calendar. That's what our life is like now for that period. We're living in an era where literally, like, people's financial investments are dominated by stuff like cryptocurrency. I'm not even trying to make fun of people, I just, this is just the kind of chaos of the modern economies, where we're heading to a place where, you know, states—while as kind of monstrous as they are—are still things that we've sort of depended on, those are starting to break down in their practical functions, they literally couldn't meet the challenges of 2020. It wasn't just they get it in a shitty way, it's that they could not do it at all. And so what that does is it sort of forces us into a counter power project where these sort of things like mutual aid stuff take on a level of importance that they didn't have for every person all the time, you know, there—I know you've been a part of bunch of mutual aid groups, I've done a bunch, you know, Food Not Bombs when I was younger, and a lot of them were really bad. And I feel kind of bad, like, drawing out the worst examples of them over the last year because I've talked about this a lot. Margaret   You mean like how we thought eggplant should be cooked in Food Not Bombs? Shane Burley   We'd like—you know, there was just times when I was like, I was like, you know, the food we're cooking is subpar. We're like two hours late because we're hung over. And just stuff like that all the time. And the reality was that the soup kitchen down the road, which we had all kinds of ethical problems with, did it much better. Like they just did what we were trying to do a lot better. That has actually in a way collapsed in on itself where the idea that there is a service space that exists and non-politicized way has sort of disappeared, and we're all that's left. And also our ability to do it has gotten better. And there's better examples historically, you know, like, survival pending revolution programs with the Panthers, there's other groups that done it really well. But we're hitting an era of capacity where we're actually in a way sort of able to take it on. And what I saw in 2020 was, you know, mutual aid groups come together really quickly around the Coronavirus, then those mutual aid groups to the protests, and grow that and create the whole infrastructure. And then that infrastructure then pivots to the fires, which then pivots to the next thing. And we're actually able to do that in a really profound way. So as this crisis is unfolding and we're living through profound prices, our ability to survive through collective action is really ramping up. And so I'm seeing these different projects as ways of not just seeing through how to survive the crisis, but what's on the other side? You know, our ability to survive now and to do it in a vibrant way is that revolutionary project that comes next. And so, when I think about the apocalypse, I don't just think about, you know, all like the kind of, I don't know, eschatological fantasies of like the Left Behind series, you know, where like, it's like fire and brimstone and, you know, people being beamed up to heaven. I think about what does it mean to bring something to an end. And I think, like, if we're thinking about collapse and things like that, that's endemic to our society now. That's not an end of anything. That's just a continuation of what we've had to a degree. What ends it is changing our underlying conditions. And so I think by responding to this crisis in the way that we're doing—and this is just the seed of it, hopefully it just grows as we create really vibrant structures of survival, healthcare networks, of solidarity networks to support people in tenant situations, all the kinds of things that we're going to need. By doing that we actually do have the ability to shift to the next stage, that we actually answer the crisis, not with more crisis, but by bringing this thing to an end so we can build something new. Margaret   Okay, so that actually answers my pessimism at the beginning of it, right, is—like, there's going to be something new. Things are not going to continue. Now. I mean, I'll be real, like, people thought capitalism is gonna fall before. I actually don't want to put all my eggs in the capitalism is definitely going to collapse basket, or even the nation states are going to collapse basket, just because they're oddly resilient. Right? But it's gonna be fucking different.  Shane Burley   Yeah, yeah, exactly.  Margaret   And, and it completely certainly could collapse, which people just sort of forget is possible, and then they remember it as possible. But now the Biden's president they forget as possible again. And so then, if everyone's looking at this escalating crisis, there needs to be an answer we offer. And Nazis are offering an answer, which is blame the migrants, be strong by being a fucking coward. You know, masculinity taken to its ultimate and—not even its ultimate extreme, a weird, twisted side path of masculinity. And so yeah, I guess we got to do something new instead. And that's the answer to the pessimism is everyone's going to change their mind about how society should work. So we just have to fuckin good enough answer. Shane Burley   And I actually am optimistic about it. You know, one of the, one of the realities—I think we—I have gotten historically caught up in this kind of, this under resourced space. Like, we don't have money, they have the money. We don't have the time, we're always working trying to survive. But the reality is, we have the one thing that this new model is built on, we have each other. That is all that we actually need. And the reality is I think that maybe this is the materialism of the—maybe this is the dialectic is that the conditions have met into a place where I think, like, for example, we have social media tools that do allow us to connect in ways we didn't before. We have the ability to travel and be with people in a way we didn't have before. We have the ability to spontaneously rise up in coordinated fashion that was really hard, you know, a couple of decades ago. Conditions are ripe to actually realize what it means to build a society of relationships. That is possible. And by doing it now, by living that through, it inherently challenges power. That is a revolutionary process right there. You know, it's not one that leads to a revolution, is it right there. Like, living that new society is that revolutionary process because it creates the friction and tension. And the reality is that we are, like you said, it's not like capitalism and the state are going to disappear tomorrow, but they are going to devolve even further into more outstanding cruelties. Which, in a way, puts the necessity on us because we can only survive by doing it together, that—we can always survive through a new society. Margaret   Yeah, when people ask me, you know, when people I'm—like, um, you know, I prepare for the apocalypse or whatever, like—or even like, I want to have an anarchist society or I want a totally different society, people will be like, "Well, how would you do this, that thing or the other?" And you're like, well, how do we do it now? Like, people will be like, "Well, how would a revolutionary society make antibiotics?" And you're like, well, I literally don't know because I don't know how we do it now, but there are people who do know how and many of those people might join us and tell us how, or just keep doing it. You know, and—yeah, you're right, we always fall into this idea that, like, we—I think overall one of the biggest problems is I think that, like, leftist revolutionists, anarchists, whatever the fuck, like just don't know how to, like, take themselves seriously and act big. Like, because we are so used to being told we can't do anything but, like, throw a tantrum. And now I'm not like talking shit on rioting, I think that's actually a great way of expressing power and learning to find power with each other, you know, but that—we're being told that all we can do is, like, stir things up a little bit. And, you know, we even run into this within, like, ostensibly left spa

This is a conversation with Daniel Randall. He's a London-based railway worker and workplace representative for the National Union of Rail, Maritime, and Transport Workers and a member of the Alliance for Workers' Liberty. We spoke about antisemitism on the Left as Daniel has an upcoming book on this very topic. Get early access + more perks at Patreon.com/firethesetimes Blog: https://thefirethisti.me You can follow on Twitter or Instagram @ firethesetimes too. Topics Discussed: What is left antisemitism? The ‘socialism of fools' The difference between antisemitism and other forms of hatred The impact of Moishe Postone in our understanding of this topic Antisemitism as conspiracy theory in and of itself How it impacts discourse on Israel-Palestine The specific legacy of Stalinism on anti-Zionism Anti-Zionism without Anti-Semitism ‘Anti-Zionist Zionism' Isaac Deutscher's lifeboat metaphor for Israel in the 1940s Understanding how one can be both a refugee and a settler What's wrong with saying ‘the Zionist entity' Edward Said's view on this The example of Hindutva The example of Lebanon The pseudo-emancipatory character of antisemitism Intersection between anti-semitism and islamophobia (‘great replacement' conspiracy theory) How Antisemitism Animates White Nationalism (reference to the essay by Erik Ward) What happened in the UK Labor Party Navigating sensitive discourses surrounding Israel-Palestine On anti-nationalism Recommended Books That's Funny, You Don't Look Antisemitic: Antiracist Analysis of Left Antisemitism Paperback by Steve Cohen Confronting Anti-Semitism in the 21st Century edited by Shane Burley Confronting antisemitism on the Left: arguments for socialists by Daniel Randall (forthcoming) Music by Tarabeat.

Babylon 5: The Gathering (22 Feb 93) v DS9 S1 E1-2 Emissary (4 Jan 93)-We weren't wild about Tamlyn Tomita's performance as Lt. Cdr. Takashima, but we love her as Commodore Oh in Star Trek: Picard (2020)-Johnny Sekka who played Dr. Kyle was a Senegalese-born Gambian actor famous from the London theater scene-Dr. Kyle's & Ms. Alexander's openings of Ambassador Kosh's encounter suit reminded us of scenes in the films Kiss Me Deadly (1955), Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981), & Pulp Fiction (1994)-A fantastic early use of Medusa in sf is Catherine Moore tale “Shambleau” (Weird Tales 1933), and the other famous weird fiction writer referenced is H.P. Lovecraft, known for his Cthulhu Mythos (1917-35) -The amazing DS9 dream episode w/ Sisko as 50s sf writer is “Far beyond the Stars” (1998)-The early Next Generation episodes w/ crossovers to the original Star Trek series we reference are “Encounter at Farpoint” (1987), “Sarek” (1990), “Unification” (1991), & “Relics” (1992) -Colm Meaney's post-DS9 work includes Intermission (2003) & Hell on Wheels (2011-6), René Auberjonois's post-DS9 work includes Boston Legal (2004-8), & the great Michelle Forbes appeared as Ro Laren in 8 episodes of Next Gen S5-7 (1991-4)-For more on the historical specificity of antisemitism, see the political economist Moishe Postone essay “The Holocaust & the Trajectory of the C20” (2003)-DS9 premiered in Jan 93, B5 in Feb 93, & X-Files in Sep 93-Delenn's rings have big Green Lantern Corps or the Mandarin (Iron Man antagonist) energy-Afrofuturist novelist & sf critic Samuel Delany seizes on descriptions of doors as an example of the techniques of sf language in prose fiction late in his essay “About 5,750 Words” (1968)

"Lacan, Gurdjieff & the Wolf of Gubbio" is an encompassing and insightful conversation delving into psychology, philosophy and much more. Thinkers and artists cited include: Moishe Postone, Ouspensky, Freud, Sean Homer, Slavoj Zizek, David Lynch and others. We need your support to continue creating new content. Please visit our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/Phenomenoumena

Nesse episódio especial, Gabriel Carvalho (Ciências Sociais - UNIVASF) e Natan Oliveira (Física - UFF) recebem Mario Duayer, professor aposentado do departamento de economia da Universidade Federal Fluminense, para falar sobre a obra do historiador canadense Moishe Postone, crítico do marxismo tradicional que produziu uma reinterpretação inovadora da teoria crítica de Marx a partir dos Grundrisse, os manuscritos preparatórios d'O Capital.

We continue to check the decomposition of the spines of our favorite texts of Marx and Marxism with this short and practical discussion on value criticism and Moishe Postone's Time Labor and Social Domination For the full episode, and all other bonus material, access to our discord community, and a signed, union-made letterpress postcard, become a patron today at Patreon.com/theantifada Previous episodes posted on our Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/theantifada

Neste episódio, a petiana egressa Eloah Fassarella entrevistou o Prof. Dr. Mario Duayer, durante o XXIV Encontro Nacional de Economia Política (Enep), realizado pela Sociedade Brasileira de Economia Política, na Universidade Federal do Espírito Santo. Nessa oportunidade, o professor ressaltou seus esforços de investigação em torno da enquanto crítica ontológica e o resgate da interpretação de Marx a partir de Moishe Postone, dentre outras coisas. Textos citados no episódio: - DUAYER, M.; ARAUJO, P. H. F. Valor como forma de mediação social: interpretação de Marx a partir de Postone. In: XXIV Encontro Nacional de Economia Política, 2019, Vitória. Anais do XXIV ENEP. Disponível em: https://www.sep.org.br/mostrar.php?url=/anais/2019/Sessoes-Ordinarias/Sessao4.Mesas31_40/Mesa39/391.pdf. Acesso em: 16 jun. 2020. - DUAYER, M. Capital: More Human than Human (Blade Runner e a Barbárie do Capital). Trabalho Necessário, Niterói, v. 8, n. 10, 2010. Disponível em: https://periodicos.uff.br/trabalhonecessario/article/view/6117/5082. Acesso em: 16 jun. 2020. Outras entrevistas (jun. 2019): - Entrevista com a professora Laura Carvalho (USP), jun. 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WexS3qS8T6s&t=107s - Entrevista com o professor José Dari Krein (Unicamp), jun. 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQrGfbRb34&t=42s Para acompanhar as demais atividades do PET-Economia/Ufes: instagram.com/peteconomiaufes facebook.com/peteconomia.ufes peteconomiaufes.wixsite.com/petecoufes --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pet-economia-ufes/message

Support this podcast Essential workers are experiencing a speed-up as demand for their services increases, while millions stay home— as their own sense of time, and the separation between "life" and "work," blurs. How is it that we came to be ruled by clocks, and how did people experience time prior to industrial capitalism? Team Advantage explores the phenomenon of capitalist time-discipline, consulting E. P. Thompson, Moishe Postone, and Mark Fisher (among others) as resources. Thanks to our central Canadian correspondent Brendan (@Neeedleseye) for joining us! Sources for this episode: E. P. Thompson, "Time, Work-Discipline, and Industrial Capitalism" Moishe Postone, "Time, Labor, and Social Domination" Mark Fisher, "Cybertime Crisis Lecture" (YouTube) Ivor Southwood, "Non-Stop Inertia" Barbara Ehrenreich, "Bait and Switch" Daniel Greene and Daniel Joseph, "The Digital Spatial Fix" Jonathan Crary, "24/7: Late Capitalism and the Ends of Sleep"

Nesta sexta aula a questão central é Marx e a crítica da economia política. Recorrendo especialmente aos Grundrisse (1857), Mario Duayer procura expor como determinada leitura desses textos deu origem a uma vertente alternativa de teoria crítica, voltada para a dimensão dominadora da ontologia do trabalho.As leituras recomendadas desta aula são:•Grundrisse, de Karl Marx (1857/58)•Tempo, trabalho e dominação social, de Moishe Postone (2014)☭ ☭ ☭Acompanhe a Boitempo nas redes sociaisFacebook /BoitempoYouTube /tvboitempoInstagram @boitempoTwitter @editoraboitempoBlog www.blogdaboitempo.com.brLoja virtual www.boitempoeditorial.com.br#LeiaMarx

Joni Alizah Cohen joins me to discuss the relationship between transmisogyny and anti-semitism in Nazi ideology and the theoretical work of the Marxist historian Moishe Postone. Our conversation was prompted by Joni's article, 'The Eradication of “Talmudic Abstractions”: Anti-Semitism, Transmisogyny and the National Socialist Project': https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4188-the-eradication-of-talmudic-abstractions-anti-semitism-transmisogyny-and-the-national-socialist-project#_ftn16 If you would like to hear the extended version of this episode and other PTO shows, please consider becoming a supporter: www.patreon.com/join/poltheoryother

This week, The Gang gets subsumed to the value-form (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) as we read three essays by the late Canadian marxist Moishe Postone
: "Critique and Historical Transformation" (2004) "History and Helplessness" (2006) "Rethinking 'Capital' in Light of the 'Grudrisse'" (2008) Donate to Swampside, yada yada, abolish the heteronomous dialectic: patreon.com/swampsidechats

On this edition of Parallax Views returning guest Doug Lain, author of the sci-fi novel Bash Bash Revolution and publisher at Zero Books, discusses Zero Books severed ties with author Nicolas Hausdorf after finding out that he had began writing for the "post-political" (reactionary) magazine Jacobite. You can hear Doug discuss this issues with the author in question on Zero Squared #171: Pssst... Socialist Oppose Reaction.During the course of the conversation we discuss a number of topics ranging from how leftists activists end up going down the reactionary rabbit hole, free speech, the anti-SJW industry, Neoreaction (NRx) and its idea of The Cathedral, Doug's memories of the occult-flavored synchromystic subsculture of the 00's and how it may tie into these matters, whether "politics is downstream from culture", Moishe Postone's essay "History and Hopelessness: Mass Mobilization and Contemporary Forms of Anticapitalism" and unrefined manifestations of anti-imperialism on the Left, Adorno and the Frankfurt School's views on culture, alienation in political activists and the youth, Angela Nagle's critique of transgressive or "edgelord" culture, psychedelic and New Age reactionarism, socialism as "The Loyal Opposition", Jordan Peterson and the IDW vs. the reactionaries of the alt right and NRx, and more.And yes, Doug does speak about the recent kerfuffle around the recent Angela Nagle vs. Sargon of Akkad debate in this conversation.

In this very conspiratorial episode, the crew is joined by Tanz, writer, researcher, and PhD candidate in the CUNY Grad Center's social psychology program, to talk about a pamphlet she co-authored, "How to Overthrow the Illuminati," which can be found at https://overthrowingilluminati.wordpress.com Alex Jones, David Icke, 9/11 truthers, and the mainstreaming of conspiracy theories. The flat earth people make tankies of us all. Why do working class people believe in the Illuminati and other conspiracy theories? Gothic Marxism gets an extraterrestrial update. How to help people figure out the real problem is (spoiler alert!) capitalism without being an alienating weirdo about it. Read the pamphlet here: https://overthrowingilluminati.wordpress.com We were going to discuss a piece on structural anti-Semitism by Moishe Postone called "Anti-Semitism and National Socialism," but we ran out of time. Read it yourself, and/or demand Sean give you the Cliff's notes version in the next History is a Weapon. Outro music - Zounds - Demystification Support the show at patreon.com/theantifada to access bonus content and our awesome Discord community! Follow us on Twitter: @the_antifada @spaceprole @jamie_elizabeth

SPS tackles the legacy of the late Moishe Postone, the feud between Killer Mike and March for Our Lives organizers, and the reboot of (Trump-supporting) Roseanne. From the Platypus Review archives: https://platypus1917.org/2008/03/01/marx-after-marxism-an-interview-with-moishe-postone/ Clip of Moishe Postone from Doug Lain's podcast, "Zero Squared" #108: The Subject of Capitalism with Moishe Postone: http://zero-books.net/blogs/zero/zero-squared-108-the-subject-of-capitalism/

Moishe Postone is a professor of History at the University of Chicago. He is author of Time, Labor and Social Domination: A Reinterpretation of Marx’s Critical Theory (Cambridge Univ. Press), History and Heteronomy (The University of Tokyo Center for Philosophy), and co-editor (with Eric Santner) of Catastrophe and Meaning: The Holocaust and the Twentieth Century (Univ. of Chicago Press), among many other books and articles.