Podcasts about Food Not Bombs

Today on the Show: The USA and Nuclear renegade  Israel carry-out a series of unprovoked attacks against Iran. And Iran appears to be saying a temporary uncle. Is peace at hand? Meanwhile hundreds more are slaughtered in Gaza, picked of by Israeli soldiers as they scramble for a few meger scraps of food. And speaking of food and hunger, we'll have a visit with Keith McHenry and Food Not Bombs, to talk about the relationship between hunger and war. And the People's Arms Embargo Returns to Travis Air Force Base, calling for peace in a time of war The post The Latest Update on The USA & Israel's Attack Against Iran appeared first on KPFA.

Sam Bliss doesn't just wish for markets based on gift-giving and free food - he actively tries to make that a reality. Sam works with Food Not Cops, a chapter of Food Not Bombs based in Burlington, VT. For more than 6 years, Sam and his colleagues prepare and distribute food to the broader community, including the unhoused population but also to others in the community. We discuss how anarchism can actually mean trust in communities to self-regulate and how to imagine a world where consumption is based on care, not monetary wealth. If you want to do something to get involved feeding people, but don't know where to start, this is a great episode for you. Plus, tune in to hear Abbie reveal her hidden kitchen preferences, Tim disclose his complicated hair-care, and the group wonder if sheep are literal, or metaphorical.

L.A.'s top homeless services official Va Lecia Adams Kellum engaged in major misconduct, including hiring unqualified friends into powerful positions, trying to destroy public records and behaving inappropriately at a conference, according to two whistleblower claim letters. The letters were written by an attorney on behalf of two former L.A. Homeless Services Authority employees who alleged they were wrongfully fired for speaking up against wrongdoing by Adams Kellum.  Jimmy speaks with Food Not Bombs founder Keith McHenry about the persistent problem of homelessness in American cities and how institutionalized graft and self-dealing ensure that no solution will make a dent in the ongoing crisis. Plus segments on the Biden administration doling out $93 billion to suspicious recipients after Kamala's loss, CNN's unhinged freakout over “Free Palestine” and Tim Dillon schooling a CNN host about the comedy climate today. Also featuring Kurt Metzger and Stef Zamorano!

Today on the Show: Hostage exchange back on track/looks like the Bibi blinked when Hamas called his bluff. Also we'll feature our weekly frontline news report from the Electronic Intifada with Nora Barrows Friedman.  And Food Not Bombs faces off with the powers that be in Santa Cruz, California, over claims of violent sweeps and unfair confiscations of people's property: We'll go live to a protest with Keith McHenry in Downtown Santa Cruz The post Food Not Bombs vs Santa Cruz & Their Confiscation of People's Property appeared first on KPFA.

From Pacifica Radio in San Francisco, This is Flashpoints I'm Dennis Bernstein, Today on the Show: The speaker of the House kisses Netanyahu's ass: also the people of San Francisco's Historic mission District unite to stop a luxury Housing Complex: Also Keith McHenry of Food Not Bombs on a massive spike in homelessness, and on the dangerous clean up  of the toxic battery fires at the world's largest battery storage plant located in Northern California: you may remember: A recent accident at the battery plant sent plumes of toxic smoke into the atmosphere, leading to the evacuation of up to 1,500 people. The post Flashpoints – February 7, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

Keith McHenry - The Plot to Intern Homeless Americans3 hours agoKeith McHenry is an American activist, best known as the co-founder of Food Not Bombs. He also co-founded Homes Not Jails and contributed to the founding of the Independent Media Center.Homes Not Jails is an American organization that is affiliated with the San Francisco Tenants Union. It describes itself as an all-volunteer organization committed to housing homeless people through direct action. The group was formed in 1992. Homes Not Jails does public actions as well as legislative advocacy and squatting (occupying empty buildings for free). Homes Not Jails groups do "housing takeovers", acts of civil disobedience in which vacant buildings are publicly occupied, to demonstrate the availability of vacant property and to advocate that it be used for housing. The group has done many such occupations. Homes Not Jails has also done and assisted with hundreds of "covert" squats in which vacant buildings are broken into so that people in need of housing can move in.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

The number of homeless in the United States has grown by a third during the Biden years despite steady economic growth since the end of the pandemic. So how did this happen? Why did a rising tide not only fail to lift all boats, but now threatens to drown an even greater number of Americans living on the margins -- and under bridges, on sidewalks and in their cars? Jimmy speaks with Food Not Bombs founder Keith McHenry about the history of homelessness, why the problem remains so entrenched in the U.S. and why purported attempts to solve it have failed so spectacularly. Jimmy and McHenry then discuss where the tens of billions of dollars that have been allocated to solve the homelessness crisis really went since they're obviously not being used as intended by the voting public.

Episode #297: The vibrant flavors of Burmese cuisine have traveled far beyond the borders of Myanmar, embedding themselves into global food culture. Earlier this year, we convened a panel discussion that delved not only into recipes and cooking techniques, but also into the themes of resilience, culture, and migration. Our guests included:· Kenneth Wong: A Burmese-American author, translator, and UC Berkeley language teacher.· Ma Nandar: A feminist activist and storyteller from Shan State, Myanmar, Ma Nandar channels her passion for justice through her leadership in the Purple Feminists Group and her creative exploration of food as a form of healing and memory.· Htet Khine Soe (Ko Htet): A long-time activist involved in movements from the Saffron Revolution to "Food Not Bombs," Ko Htet continues his humanitarian work from Mae Sot, after years of persecution and personal loss under Myanmar's military regime.· Thin Lei Win: An acclaimed journalist and founder of Myanmar Now and The Kite Tales, Thin Lei Win combines her reporting on climate and food systems with a deep personal passion for cooking, exploring the connections between food, culture, and sustainability.Food plays a vital role in cultural preservation for Burmese families, connecting them to their homeland and history. As the diaspora spread across countries like Thailand, Australia, and the U.S., beloved recipes were passed down through generations, blending with local cuisines and creating new fusion dishes. This panel showcases personal stories and commentary on how Burmese cuisine has been both preserved and transformed by this global migration. The panelists also examine how Burmese food fosters community, becoming a bridge between cultures. Burmese restaurants, pop-up kitchens, and food festivals offer spaces for cultural exchange, promoting a deeper understanding of Myanmar's rich culinary heritage. By offering the stories behind the food, the episode provides listeners with both historical context and a celebration of Burmese resilience through cuisine.

Dan hosted NightSide's Charity Combine! We featured 20 local charities and organizations that offer a wide range of services and support to their communities. If you've been looking for just the right charity to donate to this holiday season, here are the Second 10!Matt Brown Foundation - https://www.mattbrownfoundation.org/ MA Lions Club Eye Research - https://www.lionsclubs.org/en The MA Association for the Blind & Visually Impaired - https://www.mabvi.org/TWAV/ South Sudanese Enrichment for Families - https://www.ssefboston.org/ Food Not Bombs - https://www.instagram.com/foodnotbombswaltham/?hl=en New Brothers Incorporated - https://www.newbrothers.org/j3x/ Andrew & Ava & Friends Charity Lemon-Aid Stand https://www.facebook.com/AndrewAndAvaAndFriendsLemonAidStand/ Juniper Outreach - https://www.juniperhelps.org/ Programs For People - https://www.programsforpeople.org/ The Boston Entrepreneurs' Network - https://bostonenet.org/Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio and listen to NightSide with Dan Rea Weeknights From 8PM-12AM!

Jen Thorpe and Andy Healey were members of the punk band Submission Hold from 1993 to 2005. Their house, at 2024 East 1st Avenue, known as Submission Hold House, hosted many shows from 1993 to 2001. Venues mentioned: La Quena (co-op coffee house), Strathcona Community Centre, Seylenn Hall (North Vancouver), Crosstown Traffic (Hastings and Homer, active in the 1990s), the Plaza (punk house on Georgia near Clark), Chateau Noir (house on east 1st), Hastings Community Centre, The South Wall (community centre in Lonsdale). Bands discussed: Citizen Fish, DOA, Tragedy, Detestation,  Q Factor, Torches to Rome, Bread and Circuits, Please Inform the Captain This is a Hijack, Former Members of Alfonsin, Jolie Holland, the Evaporators, His Hero is Gone, Sparkmarker. Food Not Bombs is a grass roots movement started in 1980 to serve free mostly vegan meals as a protest against war and poverty. Thank you to Kellarissa for the original theme music.   Music clips used with artist permission Submission Hold: Final Coup Of The Last Millennium from What Holds Back The Elephant (2004, G7 Welcoming Committee) My Belief from Waiting For Another Monkey To Throw The First Brick (1998, Ebullition) Synthetic Wonderland from The Buzz Of A Buzzless Situation (1995)

David Boarder Giles was born in Melbourne in the year of Reagan's election (1980), but his mother soon whisked him away to Disneyland and conservative California when he was 10. Boo. It took him a while to finally make his way back home. David witnessed many interesting cultural curios during his teenage years in the States, which probably informed his desire to eventually study anthropology and write his PhD about Food Not Bombs when he was an organiser in Seattle. The culmination of these efforts has resulted in a book titled 'A Mass Conspiracy to Feed People'. It features David with his arse hanging out of a dumpster as he dives for a still-good piece of cake. We love it. David has been a bit of a punk and musician, playing in ska bands and the like. He says that Americans have to decide early on how they are going to respond to the ever-present poverty in their country - ignore, blame or get active. David knows quite a bit about homelessness in America, particularly Seattle, and how the city has responded to the crisis over the years. Today he teaches at Deakin University on systems theory. That's the way all our different systems intermix and collide, from environmental, economical, cultural etc. It sounds pretty all-encompassing. David's scholar and writer of choice is David Graebar (RIP). Check out his writings, too. Thanks for joining us, David. Keep up the great work!   David and his pink scarf outside 3CR.

This week on CounterSpin: Dog whistles are supposed to be silent except for those they're intended to reach. But as listeners know, the right wing has gotten much more overt and loud about their intention to defeat the prospect of multiracial democracy. We unpack the latest weaponized trope — the “DEI hire” — with anti-racism educator and author Tim Wise. Trying to help unhoused people and trying to make them invisible are different things. Keith McHenry, cofounder of Food Not Bombs, joins us to talk about the recent Supreme Court ruling that gave state authorities more power to dismantle the encampments in which many people live, with no guarantee they will land anywhere more safe.   The post Tim Wise on ‘DEI Hires' / Keith McHenry on Criminalizing the Unhoused appeared first on KPFA.

This week on The Leftovers, never-before-heard audio from Kathleen Hanna, frontwoman for the groundbreaking feminist punk bands Bikini Kill and Le Tigre and author of the new memoir Rebel Girl. Last week, on Your Last Meal, Kathleen talked about meals she's eaten that were so good, they made her cry. Like, really cry.  Today she tells us about her major, if accidental, contribution to a Nirvana record, what it means to be punk-rock while living a comfortable adult life and what it was like working at McDonald's as a teenager.  Then host Rachel Belle meets the co-founder of Food Not Bombs, a global movement to end hunger.   Watch Rachel's Cascade PBS TV show The Nosh with Rachel Belle!  Follow along on Instagram!  Thanks to Visit Kitsap for sponsoring this episode!Support the show: http://rachelbelle.substack.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this week's episode of The 1 Girl Revolution Podcast, we welcome the phenomenal Shelly Denny, co-founder of Medicine Wheel Ride - a nonprofit organization that is dedicated to raising awareness and support for Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women (MMIW) and their families. Shelly lives in Arizona and is an enrolled member of the Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe, which is an Anishinaabe Tribe in Northern Minnesota, also known as Ojibway or Chippewa. She is a Doctor of Oriental Medicine and works full time in Indian Country as an acupuncturist. Shelly grew up in a biker family and has been on a motorcycle since she was in the womb. In 1996, at 19 years old,  she bought her first motorcycle and hasn't let go of the throttle since. Shelly has logged over a quarter million miles on a motorcycle with numerous cross-country trips, many of which were solo rides. Shelly's activism started in her teen years and she became an organizer and volunteer in groups like Earth First, Food Not Bombs, Catholic Worker Community, and Indigenous rights groups in various peace and justice issues. After seeing the egotism and anger that can get in the way of good activist work, Shelly took a break from direct action to work on internal healing of trauma and addiction and develop healthy and productive modes of coping with obstacles and difficulties. This groundwork of healing and recovery has added a deeper level of resilience and commitment to service. Shelly believes there is great power in knowing exactly who you are and spiritual commitment that extends beyond mere faith. In this episode, you'll hear:  Shelly's inspiring life story; Her experience being raised in a biker family, in the Indigenous community, and being in-and-out of the foster care system; How Shelly goe into volunteerism and activism - and how that was her “rebellion”; About the crisis of Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Relatives; How the Medicine Wheel Ride came to be and all about their incredible work to raise awareness and support for MMIW/MMIR; And so much more.  Listen and Subscribe: Don't miss this inspiring episode - and so many others! Listen to The 1 Girl Revolution Podcast on #ApplePodcasts, #Spotify, #YouTube, and subscribe to stay up-to-date with our latest episodes. Join the movement to empower girls and change the world, one story at a time! ***Note: Shelly founded an indigenous women's riding group in 2018 and from that, several women came together to found the Medicine Wheel Ride nonprofit organization. For more information on Shelly and the Medicine Wheel Ride, please visit: www.1GirlRevolution.com/ShellyDenny For more information on 1 Girl Revolution, to listen to all of our podcast episodes, watch our Emmy-nominated documentaries, and more, please visit: www.1GirlRevolution.com 

We're trying something a little new. Rabbit and Barto talk flows, blockage, smashing and building power as described in the post-marxist, anarchist book, To Our Friends by The Invisible Committee. We cover some Agamben, Lacan, Deleuze, and Nietzsche. We consider Occupy, January 6th, Food Not Bombs and (the at the time we recorded, very new) occupation movement happening on college campuses protesting the genocide in Gaza.   In part 1 we cover the introduction through chapter 3. You don't have to have any familiarity with the text to follow the conversation, but the book is available in PDF form on libcom.org so you can read along (we really like the text so obviously we'd encourage you to read it! It's extremely relevant to the present moment) The full episode is available to patrons for as little as $1 a month alongside other bonus episodes, behind the scenes notes, and post-recording wrap ups. Patreon.com/NoGodsPod Follow us on Twitter and Bluesky @nogodspod Email us at NoGodsPod@gmail.com

Welcome, to This Is America, April 18th, 2024. In this episode, first we present an interview with a member of Houston Food Not Bombs, who speaks about how the group has been pushing back on attempts by the city to shut down their mutual aid program through ongoing ticketing and police harassment. We then turn... Read Full Article

**Nonprofit News Digest: Honoring Jimmy Carter, ESG & B Corps Scrutiny, and a Homeless Advocacy Victory** This week's episode of the Nonprofit News Feed, hosted by George Weiner, Chief Whaler of Whole Whale, and Digital Strategist Nick Azulay, celebrates President's Day with a tribute to former President Jimmy Carter's legacy in the nonprofit sector. The conversation also delves into current challenges facing ESG frameworks and B Corps, and highlights a legal victory for a homeless advocacy organization in Houston. **Jimmy Carter's Enduring Nonprofit Legacy** - Jimmy Carter, now 99, has made significant contributions to the nonprofit world through his involvement with Habitat for Humanity and his own Carter Center, focusing on peace, democracy, and development. - The Carters' hands-on work in building homes showcases their commitment to affordable housing. - Reflecting on Carter's life reminds us of the importance of political figures in the nonprofit sector, especially in times of division. **ESG and B Corps Under Fire** - ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) and B Corps face backlash, with financial firms like JP Morgan and State Street Global Advisors withdrawing support from climate initiatives. - Greenwashing, the use of environmental certifications to improve public reputation without meaningful change, is a growing concern. - Scrutiny of ESG and B Corps certification processes calls for a reevaluation of how businesses are held accountable for sustainable and ethical practices. - The discussion emphasizes the importance of setting norms and improving transparency in corporate behavior. **Food Not Bombs Wins Legal Fight in Houston** - The organization Food Not Bombs achieved a legal win when a federal judge ordered the city of Houston to stop ticketing members for feeding the homeless. - The case raises first and fourteenth amendment rights issues, balancing the organization's free speech rights against the city's public health and safety concerns. - The ruling is a positive step, but it also highlights the problematic criminalization of aid to the homeless. The episode closes with a light-hearted joke about SpaceX's matching donation program, bringing a bit of humor to the discussion of giving atmospheres.   This episode of the Nonprofit News Feed underscores the significant impact individuals and organizations can have in the nonprofit sector, while also reminding us that accountability and integrity are crucial in upholding the values of social responsibility and advocacy for those in need.  

**Nonprofit News Digest: Honoring Jimmy Carter, ESG & B Corps Scrutiny, and a Homeless Advocacy Victory** This week's episode of the Nonprofit News Feed, hosted by George Weiner, Chief Whaler of Whole Whale, and Digital Strategist Nick Azulay, celebrates President's Day with a tribute to former President Jimmy Carter's legacy in the nonprofit sector. The conversation also delves into current challenges facing ESG frameworks and B Corps, and highlights a legal victory for a homeless advocacy organization in Houston. **Jimmy Carter's Enduring Nonprofit Legacy** - Jimmy Carter, now 99, has made significant contributions to the nonprofit world through his involvement with Habitat for Humanity and his own Carter Center, focusing on peace, democracy, and development. - The Carters' hands-on work in building homes showcases their commitment to affordable housing. - Reflecting on Carter's life reminds us of the importance of political figures in the nonprofit sector, especially in times of division. **ESG and B Corps Under Fire** - ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) and B Corps face backlash, with financial firms like JP Morgan and State Street Global Advisors withdrawing support from climate initiatives. - Greenwashing, the use of environmental certifications to improve public reputation without meaningful change, is a growing concern. - Scrutiny of ESG and B Corps certification processes calls for a reevaluation of how businesses are held accountable for sustainable and ethical practices. - The discussion emphasizes the importance of setting norms and improving transparency in corporate behavior. **Food Not Bombs Wins Legal Fight in Houston** - The organization Food Not Bombs achieved a legal win when a federal judge ordered the city of Houston to stop ticketing members for feeding the homeless. - The case raises first and fourteenth amendment rights issues, balancing the organization's free speech rights against the city's public health and safety concerns. - The ruling is a positive step, but it also highlights the problematic criminalization of aid to the homeless. The episode closes with a light-hearted joke about SpaceX's matching donation program, bringing a bit of humor to the discussion of giving atmospheres.   This episode of the Nonprofit News Feed underscores the significant impact individuals and organizations can have in the nonprofit sector, while also reminding us that accountability and integrity are crucial in upholding the values of social responsibility and advocacy for those in need.  

Stories we're following this morning at Progress Texas: We salute the Texas U.S. House Representatives who voted against GOP efforts to overturn President Biden's pause on new liquid natural gas approvals: ⁠https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-vote-bill-reverse-bidens-lng-pause-2024-02-15/⁠ A federal judge in Austin, hearing the State's argument for the new migrant crackdown law SB-4, expresses skepticism: ⁠https://www.kut.org/politics/2024-02-15/texas-senate-bill-4-invasion-claim-immigration-law-hearing⁠ The Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles, under Governor Abbott's direction, are considering a pardon for Daniel Perry, convicted last year of murder in the death of Black Lives Matter protestor Garrett Foster: ⁠https://www.statesman.com/story/news/local/2024/02/15/daniel-perry-pardon-review-murder-black-lives-matter-protester-garrett-foster-austin-texas/72611557007/⁠ Democrat-turned-Republican Dallas Mayor Eric Johnson's wife, amidst their divorce, alleges an affair by Johnson with a Dallas City staffer: ⁠https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/dallas-texas-mayor-eric-johnson-confirms-divorce-amid-affair-allegations-report/287-f9dcb725-1ce0-4523-b3a4-eb637e7063c6⁠ Progress Texas endorses Lauren Ashley Simmons in her primary challenge to sitting Democratic Texas House Rep. Shawn Thierry, and here's why: ⁠https://www.texastribune.org/2024/02/15/shawn-thierry-houston-democratic-primary-lgbtq-vote/⁠ Progress Texas endorses Sam Eppler in his run to take on MAGA darling U.S. Rep. Beth Van Duyne, and here's a small part of why: ⁠https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4469939-texas-republican-says-cnn-anchor-wanted-to-lecture-her/⁠ Houston's homeless outreach Food Not Bombs gets permission to keep operating on public property, but now faces steep sanitation bonds - Houston progressives, learn how to help here: ⁠https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-texas-feeding-homeless-food-not-bombs-ruling/285-94152347-2de8-43ac-8100-407be7b4c379#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17080842588652&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.khou.com%2Farticle%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fhouston-texas-feeding-homeless-food-not-bombs-ruling%2F285-94152347-2de8-43ac-8100-407be7b4c379⁠ We celebrate Black History Month throughout February! Progress Texas has a full schedule of events to follow: ⁠⁠https://progresstexas.org/blog/celebrating-african-american-arts-and-artisans-black-history-month⁠⁠ Thanks for listening! Progress Texas is seeking to add 29 new recurring donors during our February membership drive - we'd appreciate the support: ⁠⁠https://progresstexas.org/donate

Are state lawmakers really focused on solutions at the border or is it more of a show for election year? Plus, office buildings in Houston are having trouble finding tenants as more people work from home. And, Food Not Bombs is fighting back against the city with a new lawsuit. Host Raheel Ramzanali is breaking down these stories and others from the week with Evan Mintz and local newspaper reporter Melissa Enaje. Featured stories: The Texas Border Drama Food Not Bombs suing the city Groceries are expensive in Houston  Impact of working from home New sidewalks in Montrose  Update on the I-45 expansion  Read Melissa's latest work  Looking for more Houston news? Then sign up for our morning newsletter Hey Houston  Follow us on Instagram  @CityCastHouston Don't have social media? Then leave us a voicemail or text us at +1 713-489-6972 with your thoughts! Have feedback or a show idea? Let us know!  Interested in advertising with City Cast? Let's Talk! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Episode 6 of “Tell Me About Your Bike,” fellow Sockeye Cycles bike guide Rikki Watts and I take a drive up the White Pass and talk about dumpster diving for Food Not Bombs, dodging pedestrians at South by Southwest, and the awkward bike lanes of Austin, Texas. We also discuss bike touring on a raffled mountain bike, the finer points of packing bikes for shipping, and what Rikki had for breakfast. Links: Food Not Bombs Need for the Bike, by Paul Fournel South by Southwest (SXSW) Patreon Coffee Break German Sockeye...https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coffee-break-german/id595399272Support the show

Foods Not Bomb activist and musician Nick Cooper visited with Politics Done Right to update us on their court fight to feed the poor in Houston. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/politicsdoneright/message

Houston Food Not Bomb had a day in court that went very well. Alex Lawson confronted the Social Security-cutting GOP-run committee. Netanyahu's disrespect must cost him. The economy is good, so what's wrong with Biden? --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/politicsdoneright/message

Last show of the year! Thanks for joining us for our 124th episode! Of course pizza gets talked about as usual…. But this time it's frozen pizzas… Food Not Bombs gets ticketed for feeding the homeless in Houston… Chuck has a bone to pick with casseroles… the guys recap some notable celebrity deaths in 2024… they state their new years resolutions and review the very last Movie of the Month- Grown Ups 2…. Thank you so much for a great 2023 Nightshifters!

Original Air Date: August 17th, 2022 In part two of this week's episode, Margaret continues her conversation with Andrew Ti about the long fight for our right to feed one another in public places.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Original Air Date: August 15th, 2022 Margaret talks with Andrew Ti about the long fight for our right to feed one another in public places.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The City of Houston plans to re-file cases involving dismissed citations against volunteers who have provided food for the homeless population near the downtown library. On Thursday, eight of the cases were dismissed because Houston PD did not show up to court. Randall Kallinen, an attorney who previously helped Food Not Bombs, said the city has an ordinance that prohibits the feeding of more than five people outside unless permission is given by the property owners. "This was very unpopular when it was being debated in front of city council," Kallinen said. "However, the law did pass. And that stopped a whole bunch of people, religious groups and so forth, from going downtown and feeding the homeless for example." Related article: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/04/texas-volunteers-fined-feeding-homeless-heat Our Guest For This Week: Appodlachia: https://www.instagram.com/appodlachia/ Independent Thought is joining with Counterpoint Politics, Cocktails and Capitalism & Power Is Taken Not given, to create a brand new show - The Left Wing Firstly, yes, Independent Thought is still going to continue, this is an additional show that I'll be a part of. It's a weekly show, geared towards discussing major news stories with other content creators on the Left. We have a brand new YouTube channel where you can find all of these episodes, but I also wanted to release a few of our older episodes on the podcast. To see our latest episodes, head to the YouTube link below. *** The video of the episode is attached for all Spotify users *** Follow - The Left Wing: YOUTUBE: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@TheLeftWingPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow - TJ Whitehead: TIK TOK: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@poweristakennotgiven⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow - Counterpoint Politics: INSTAGRAM: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/counterpoint_politics/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow - Cocktails & Capitalism: INSTAGRAM: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/cocktailsandcapitalism/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow - Independent Thought: INSTAGRAM: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/independentthought/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/indethought/support

A group of volunteers that, for nearly two decades, has offered free meals four evenings a week outside Central Library has recently started getting fined for breaking city law. The 2012 law, which limits giving free meals to those in need, has been deeply controversial and had gone largely unenforced for over a decade. Food Not Bombs volunteers say the ordinance goes against their morals and hope it will be deemed unconstitutional in federal courts. Mayor Sylvester Turner says giving free meals outside Central Library is problematic because it leads to those without homes lingering outside, which he believes deters other members of the public from using the resource.   Marissa Luck and R.A. Schuetz discuss the history of the group, the law, and the area where the battle is taking place. They also take a look at how the cases are unfolding in court and what might happen after a new mayor is elected this November. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FUN HALF LINK HERE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKZ_baYEXA&ab_channel=TheMajorityReportw%2FSamSeder It's another EmMajority Report Thursday! She speaks with Ben Terris, writer in the Washington Post's Style section, to discuss his recent book The Big Break: The Gamblers, Party Animals, and True Believers Trying to Win in Washington While America Loses Its Mind. Then, she's joined by Kaniela Ing, National Director of the Green New Deal Network and former member of the Hawaii House of Representatives, to discuss the ongoing recovery efforts from the Maui wildfires, and how the aftereffects of colonialism are still affecting Hawaii to this day. First, Emma runs through updates on the Maui wildfires' climbing death toll, another wildfire in Canada, Trump's legal cases, Rudy's legal bills, the upcoming UAW strike vote, abortion rights in the US, action from far-right legislatures in the US, and a potential Lula-Biden meeting, before diving into recent revelations on Roger Stone's most unsurprising role in Trump's conspiracy. Ben Terris then joins, diving right into his project studying the impact of Trump's “shock” to the DC system, and how his victory inflamed all of the worst elements of the Capitol, making it somehow even more grifty, shifty, and power-hungry. Terris dives into his work profiling Matt Schlapp, Robert Stryk, and Sean McElwee, to explore how they capitalized on a shifting power structure in DC by clinging firmly to Trump, knowing the right people, and betting their way to the top, respectively. Kaniela Ing then joins as he first provides background on the devastating impact of the recent wildfires in Maui, burning through the capital of the Hawaiian Kingdom, Lahaina, with thousands missing alongside the over 100 declared dead. After walking through the response from the Hawaiian community, as well as the best way to help from the outside, Ing and Emma tackle the ongoing invasion of disaster capitalists in the wake, attempting to extort devastated Hawaiians for their land, and coming in under the guise of aid solely to exploit. Wrapping up, Kaniela walks through Hawaii's history with colonial capitalism (particularly in the wake of disasters), and what the major challenges of the rebuilding process will be. And in the Fun Half: Emma is joined by Brandon Sutton and Matt Binder as they discuss the outrageous second attempt at canceling Richard Hanania for doing race science again, watch Bill Maher expertly interrupt Marianne Williamson to explain that poor people don't matter because he can't see them, and a caller from Baltimore poorly starts a conversation on law and marginalized rights. Nick from Houston Food Not Bombs calls in to explore Houston's criminalization of feeding the homeless as a part of the US' greater fascistic attack on the unhoused, and Kristi Noem makes Hillary Clinton look good. Rudy Giuliani continues his pathetic little downfall, and Guy from Charlotte calls in about the Right's love for ahistory, plus, your calls and IMs! Check out the Lahaina Ohana VenMo Instagram account here: https://www.instagram.com/lahaina_ohana_venmo/ Check out the Maui Fire Relief + Recovery Fundraiser here: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/mauilonghaul Check Houston's "Food Not Bombs" here: https://www.hpjc.org/fnb/ Check out Ben's book here: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/ben-terris/the-big-break/9781538708057/?lens=twelve Follow Kaniela on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/KanielaIng Subscribe to the ESVN YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/esvnshow Subscribe to the AMQuickie newsletter here: https://am-quickie.ghost.io/ Join the Majority Report Discord! http://majoritydiscord.com/ Get all your MR merch at our store: https://shop.majorityreportradio.com/ Get the free Majority Report App!: http://majority.fm/app Check out today's sponsors: Nutrafol: Take the first step to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you go to https://Nutrafol.com/men and enter the promo code TMR.  Find out why over 4,000 healthcare professionals recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. https://Nutrafol.com/men and enter promo code TMR. That's https://Nutrafol.com/men, promo code TMR. Follow the Majority Report crew on Twitter: @SamSeder @EmmaVigeland @MattBinder @MattLech @BF1nn @BradKAlsop Check out Matt's show, Left Reckoning, on Youtube, and subscribe on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/leftreckoning Subscribe to Brandon's show The Discourse on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/ExpandTheDiscourse Subscribe to Discourse Blog, a newsletter and website for progressive essays and related fun partly run by AM Quickie writer Jack Crosbie. https://discourseblog.com/ Check out Matt Binder's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/mattbinder Check out Ava Raiza's music here! https://avaraiza.bandcamp.com/ The Majority Report with Sam Seder - https://majorityreportradio.com/

Today on the Show: FOOD FIGHT returns with Keith McHenry.  Keith remembers his friend Tortuguita, and what McHenry maintains was his  needless death in Atlanta, at the Cop City protests. And McHenry reflects on the growing violence against the unhoused and  hungry people in this country. And we rebroadcast our interview on the Compassionate Spy who gave the US secret for the Plutonium Bomb but were never prosecuted The post Food Fight with Keith McHenry of Food Not Bombs appeared first on KPFA.

Houston news never stops so host Raheel Ramzanali is bringing on producer Carlignon Jones to recap stories you might've missed from the weekend and start of the week. From an update on HISD to the city not backing down from Food Not Bombs, we're recapping it all. Plus, our rapid fire section will have you laughing and excited about the future of our area. Featured stories: Houston re-filing dismissed cases against Food Not Bombs Texas Pete lawsuit  Trill Burgers customers getting scammed Fort Bend County income gap  Travis Scott $4.5 million clause Travis Scott reaches settlement with another family Texas A&M reaches settlement  Texas A&M leaders texts revealed in investigation  HISD purchasing increase Port of Houston expansion  Looking for more Houston news? Then sign up for our morning newsletter Hey Houston  Follow us on Instagram  @CityCastHouston Don't have social media? Then leave us a voicemail or text us at +1 713-489-6972 with your thoughts! Have feedback or a show idea? Let us know!  Interested in advertising with City Cast? Let's Talk! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's Friday, which means it's time to dive into the hottest news stories of the week! The tea was hot this week and producer Carlignon Jones, Pulitzer Prize finalist Evan Mintz, and lead producer Dina Kesbeh have some hot takes on it! From HISD trying to hire uncertified teachers to the Lizzo lawsuit, we're unpacking it all! Featured stories: HISD seeks to hire uncertified teachers Houston ranked #2 for “things to do” HISD special education plans  Lizzo Lawsuit  Houston's TIRR Memorial Hermann named best rehab hospital in Texas  Harris County's November election trial begins Houston facing possible budget crisis  Food Not Bombs found not guilty Looking for more Houston news? Then sign up for our morning newsletter Hey Houston  Follow us on Instagram Don't have social media? Then leave us a voicemail or text us at +1 713-489-6972 with your thoughts! Have feedback or a show idea? Let us know!  Interested in advertising with City Cast? Let's Talk! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on the Show: A devastating suicide bombing in Pakistan. We'll get to the heart of the matter with a report from the ground in Islamabad. Also Richard Silverstein offers an update on the Israel/Palestine meltdown. And Kieth McHenry of Food Not Bombs joins us for a new edition of Food Fight The post A Report on a Suicide Bombing in Pakistan. appeared first on KPFA.

Food Not Bombs has been serving meals to the unhoused community in Houston for years without any issues, but now HPD has started to ticket members of the group for their food distribution events. So, why are they being targeted and what are they doing to fight the potential fines? Food Not Bombs volunteer Nick Cooper joins Raheel to explain why he thinks the group has been ticketed almost 30 times since March and what the group is doing to help stop these tickets. We're doing a survey to learn more about our listeners, so we can make City Cast [City] an even better, more useful podcast for you. We'd be grateful if you took the survey at citycast.fm/survey—it's only 5 minutes long. You'll be doing us a big favor. Plus, anyone who takes the survey will be eligible to win a $250 Visa gift card. Interested in advertising with City Cast? Let's Talk! Looking for more Houston news? Then sign up for our morning newsletter Hey Houston  Follow us on Twitter and Instagram  Have feedback or a show idea? Let us know! or leave us a voicemail/text us at +1 713-489-6972 with your thoughts, we love hearing from you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Summary Bex and Inmn talk about first aid and why it's super important for everyone to know a little. They talk about different trainings you can take, different situations you might need to know first aid for, what the world of street medics is like, and when to seek higher levels of care. They also talk about a really helpful zine by Riot Medicine called Basic First Aid for Emergencies. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Guest Info Bex can be found nowhere. However, Riot Medicine, the writers of Basic First Aid for Emergencies, can be found at riotmedicine.net where you can find a lot more resources on learning about first aid, and responding to emergencies and all sorts of situations. You can read Basic First Aid for Emergencies here. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Bex on First Aid Inmn Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host Inmn Neruin and I used to them pronouns. This week we're talking about something super important that we've covered in bits and pieces in other episodes and that is first aid. This episode was used on our other podcast that I host called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. On that podcast we have a voice actor narrate our monthly zine and I do an interview with the author. This month we chose to use our zine Basic First Aid for Emergencies by Riot medicine and invited our friend Bex to talk about first aid. Bex is not the author of the zine but does know a lot about first aid. And since this is a very much a Live Like the World is Dying topic, we decided to feature it over here. Content warning, we talked about blood and bodies. I mean, the precious light that fills our bodies. There's no blood in us. Bex has been on Live Like the World is Dying before to talk about treating gunshot wounds and it was one of the first episodes. So, go back and listen to that one if you haven't already. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network. And here is a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo. Inmn Real quick. We just launched a Kickstarter for Penumbra City, the TTRPG that we've been writing--we being Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. The Kickstarter launched on June 1st, which might have been yesterday or might have been a long time ago. Watch the game that inspired the short story Confession to a Dead Man come to life. We also have an actual play recording of us playing that game that just came out on this feed right before this episode. So give it a listen. And check out the Kickstarter at kickstarter.com/projects/penumbra-city/penumbra-city. Find your friends. Kill the God King. Inmn And we're back. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and for talking. Bex Woo! Inmn And for talking to us about this thing that is just so important and something that we will...a topic that we absolutely can't cover in a single podcast episode but we're gonna try to get through the basics of. Would you like to introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about your background in first aid and like responding to emergencies? Bex Yeah, my name is Bex, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. Stoked to be here. I first got involved with doing first aid or like emergency medical response in 2010 when I took my first street medic training with the Rosehip [Collective] medics out of Portland. Previous to that I, you know, was like a youth lifeguard and things like that. But, I feel like that's that training in 2010 kind of kicked me off on a different path and I've been sort of running as a street medic since then and running medic trainings and street medic trainings for the last 10 years. And, now work professionally doing wilderness first aid trainings as well. I'm having...I'm not like an expert medical practitioner, but I do have a bit of experience and I'm extremely passionate about education and sharing knowledge and making this skill set accessible to folks who are interested in it. Inmn Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because I feel like people who...like there are a lot of people who are like, extreme experts in a field or something, but are like, maybe not as excited about teaching or education or finding ways to introduce people to those worlds as much. So. Bex Yeah, and especially in the sort of medical industrial complex, I feel like it's a place where people often feel extremely alienated both from their own bodies and also from being able to access information about how to take care of themselves or take care of people around them. And, I feel like trying to break that down and make that...change emergency medical response from something that is, like, highly specialized and professionalized to something that is available and accessible for everyone is tight. Inmn Yeah, yeah, it is a very, very cool thing. And, you know, that's part of what this zine is supposed to do, it's supposed to kind of break down the barriers to just, you know, people who have no medical training to have some kind of foothold in responding to different emergencies. But to kind of back up from that--although listeners, we are probably not going to like go through this zine, page by page in this interview because that would, one, take way more time than we have on this podcast to talk about all the topics and, two, because it is possibly not the best way to learn about the minutiae of these topics. So, we're gonna focus mostly on talking about what first aid is and why it's important and how you can learn more about it outside of an hour long podcast. But, Bex, Could you could you tell us kind of like what...what is first aid? And what is kind of the scope of first aid? Bex Yeah, the like, general gist of first aid is: it's the very first care or intervention that someone receives, or gives to themselves when a illness or injury occurs. So, this is usually what's happening by a layperson, someone who's not a professional, and is happening in, you know, where the injury or illness is happening rather then in a clinical setting. And this can range from the everyday first day that we give ourselves at home, like, "Oh, I got a cut. I'm gonna wash it out in the kitchen sink and put a band-aid on it." Or it could also be in a protest scenario or it could be in a wilderness scenario or it could be anywhere. Anywhere there are people doing things there is first aid happening. Inmn Cool. That is a very great explanation for first aid. And, for folks who are kind of like less knowledgeable--maybe they're hearing these phrases for the first time--what is a street medic? And what do street medics do? Bex What do street medics do. [inflected as more of a statement] Yeah, so a street medic is basically someone who has some amount of emergency medical response training, who goes out in a protest or demonstration sort of scene, whether that is mobilization in the street, or whether it's hanging with their affinity group, or whether it's place based, sort of like encampment type of protest, or anything like that, and responding to the types of illnesses and injuries that we might see in those settings, including things like dealing with police munitions, chemical weapons, or potentially gunshot wounds, as well as like, "Ah! The bike brigade hit me and I fell over and now I'm scraped up," or whatever, but it's basically doing some emergency medical response in a protest setting. Inmn Well, cool, and what kind of training do street medics usually have? Or like could that vary? I'm asking you leading questions I know the answers to. Bex Well, there's controversy here actually. I would say that the gold standard for street medics is to have a twenty-hour training. In that twenty hours, you can really cover the depth and breadth of how to do a basic patient assessment system to make sure that you are really understanding the full picture of what's going on with a person that you are supporting and you learn different types of interventions, whether that's wound care, eye flushes for chemical weapons, how to tell if someone has a spinal injury, all kinds of things. You get to practice in a bunch of like fun hands on scenarios. People do shorter trainings as well. There's like bridge trainings for folks who are already coming from a professional medical background but want to get involved in sort of street medic stuff. And then there are also much shorter trainings, like just "stop the bleed trainings" or things like that where you're just dealing with major hemorrhaging bleeds. Inmn So...Oh, and like, sometimes, you know, street medics obviously have varying levels of training, like whether they have the twenty-hour training or whether they're coming to it with like, you know, like, I know nurses who are street medics. I know, doctors who are street medics. I know EMTs, wilderness EMTs, like people with wilderness first responder certifications. So there's a...Or like, herbalists or clinicians. Like there's such like a wide scope to who practices street medicine, right? Bex Yeah, definitely. And, then there's also this other side of the spectrum where, because street medics for decades now in protests have been sort of like a visible element of many protests scenarios, it can also be tempting for people to adopt this as their identity. And they're like, "This is what I do. I am a street medic and I stand on the sidewalk where I'm really safe and I don't actually participate in anything. And I've like been in situations where you've got like, ten medics, and you've got like, ten legal observers, and you've got, you know, like, a police liaison, and then there's like five people actually involved in the protest. And I would just really encourage breaking that down. And, I think that you can be supporting people and like providing emergency response or first aid while also being a really active, engaged participant in movement spaces and in demonstrations. And like approaching that with like, some nuance or some caution about like, "Hey, am I gonna mark myself as a medic if I'm gonna go do this sketchy thing? Maybe not." But like, Yeah, I think that finding like these niche ways to...or like these kind of, like, ways to bring our skills to protest movements is really awesome but not at the detriment of also being really active participants in all of the things that we're interested in and feel up for engaging. Inmn Well, yeah, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later. But, before we get too heavy into theory, I just want to I just want to go over this is zine. So folks, if you're listening on the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast or if you're listening on the Live Like the World is Dying podcast, we have this zine called Basic First Aid for Emergencies, it was put out by a group called Riot Medicine and it is the first in a series of skills series zines that we're putting out, which we are woefully behind on. If you know a cool skill, and you would like to write a zine for this series of skill scenes, then you know, get in touch with us. So, this zine was put out by Riot medicine and Riot Medicine is an entity that puts out essentially medical information specifically geared at people who might go to things that, you know, some people might classify as riots or like responses to kind of like police violence or violence from the, you know, alt right or fascists. I mean, you know, fascists all of a different name. And the zine, it goes through some really kind of baseline stuff, like stuff that someone with no medical training might find as helpful tips. It talks about safety, your safety, kind of like environmental hazards, and it talks about, like, personal protective equipment that you should consider. It talks about a layperson's guide to finding someone's vital signs. It talks about best practice ways to move people who might not be able to move themselves. There is a very brief introduction to compression-only CPR, there's a brief guide to wounds, specifically for severe bleeding and then for minor wounds. There's a section on burns, heat illness--which we did an entire episode on heat illness before, so if you want to learn more about heat illness, go back and listen to "Guy on Heat Illness"--talks about hypothermia, frostbite, talks about clean water, and then kind of has a basic construction for what a first-aid kit could contain. And that is available for free to read on our website or you can get it mailed to you. And Riot Medicine also, they....just to kind of go through some of the things that Riot Medicine puts out. If you go to their website, Riotmedicine.net, you can find a more comprehensive guide to to learning about medic stuff, they put out a full length textbook called Riot Medicine, it's yeah, it is massive. It is 466 pages, which includes an absolutely obscene amount of information that might, you know, peruse at your leisure. They also put out a smaller field guide. This is something that could be like in your medic kit and view kind of like a reference piece. They put out a bridge guide for people coming from other medical professional backgrounds who want to learn how to apply those backgrounds to engaging in street medic work. And yeah, they put out a ton of really awesome stuff. And yeah, so that is kind of the basis of the guide. And instead of kind of like digging into depth of like all of these topics, I would encourage everyone to go out and read about it or to attend a training of some sort. It's going to be a much better way to learn about a lot of these topics. But, to kind of switch gears into in talking about backgrounds, on the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast, I always like to ask people kind of like, "What the story behind their story is?" or "How this piece came to be?" And that is a little less applicable in this context, but Bex, how did you get your start in learning about responding to medical emergencies of all kinds? Like what what was your catalyst or origin story, so to speak? Bex My first-aid origin story. Well, okay, first, let me just say the zine is really cool. It's a--in addition to all the things that Inmn described--it also has illustrations for almost everything. And so if you are into sort of like the visual learning, it's got illustrations. It's great. Everyone should check it out. It seems really useful. Keep it in your backpack, keep it under your bathroom counter for when you're like, "What am I supposed to do with this gnarly cut I got?" Okay, but my my villain origin...I mean, my first-aid origin story. Honestly, I'm like a very accident prone person. I would say that in general, I've got like pretty low body awareness. And it's not uncommon for me to like, get injured in odd situations. So, I've spent spent a lot of time taking trips to the urgent care and being like, "I think there might be something serious going on." And, specifically, there's like one incident that really launched me into wanting to learn more about first aid, which is that I got a pretty bad concussion from a bike accident. And I had no idea that I had a head injury. I had no idea that I should even be considering that I might have a head injury until like, the next morning when I was like collapsed in the shower and my roommates were like, lifting me up by my armpits and like patting me off and like, putting me in the car to like head out to the urgent care to like see what the fuck was wrong with me. And that experience was just like...was extremely scary and extremely eye opening to know that like there could be something like seriously wrong going on inside my body and I did not...I didn't know....I didn't know what to look for. I didn't know what was going on until it sort of like reached a more critical point. And that just made me really want to learn more. And I think that I probably went to a street medic training and also maybe like a 16 hour wilderness first-aid training in the year or two following that incident. Inmn Why did you go to a street medic training? Like, first, instead of like a WFR class or WFA class? Bex Yeah, and WFR stands for wilderness first responder. That's like an 80 hour training usually, and wilderness first aid is the WFA that Inmn just said and that's usually a 16 hour training. There's different orgs that offer those. Um, well, I went to a street medic training, because when I heard about it I thought it sounded cool and fun. And, because I was looking for a way to plug into some specific movement spaces, or like, demonstrations that were coming up that I was eager to participate in, but wasn't quite sure how to engage in. And this felt like a...I was like, "Oh, there's something I can do, like something I can offer, a skill set." And now I feel like my thinking on that has shifted, where I'm like, actually, every single person brings something. Like every person brings a skill set and that's being exactly who they are engaging in a protest space. But, at the time it felt like getting a street medic training was a really empowering sort of entry point of like, "Oh, I've got this sort of, like, motivating reason to show up and feel like I can be helpful or something." Inmn Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a great--I feel like it maybe this is less true now--but I feel like at--- really aging myself here--a while ago, I feel like it was a really good entry point into, like, getting involved with movements, like, in the same way that, you know, when I was a teenager I would go to Food Not Bombs. And that was a huge entry point into learning about different radical projects in my area was just going to Food Not Bombs. And so, like, I feel like street medic trainings similarly offer a very easy, low-barrier way for people to get involved in protests or like uprising movements. Or at least that's how they did in the past. I don't know if that's true anymore. Bex Yeah, and in general, I mean, I think that, like, we as human beings are like, very, sort of, like, motivated towards connection with others and like, relationship building, and, like community building and a sense of belonging. And I think that in radical movements that creating containers--whether it's things like a street medic training or Food Not Bombs or like, you know, whatever--it is finding places where people can know that, like, "Oh, I can show up here. People are going to be stoked that I'm there. They're gonna, like, be actively and enthusiastically, like, sharing their knowledge and skills and like, inviting me into the space feels really fucking good." And we need more models of that all around us. Inmn Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, that was one of the first ways that I got involved in that kind of stuff was like, I don't know, I went...I like was at a thing and I watched the police fuck some people up and I watched these, like, street medics like swoop in, and like, just, like, instantly have this like, response of like...it's like, I saw someone screaming because they'd been like pepper...they'd been maced in the face and there was suddenly this group of people who knew exactly what to do to help those people. And it was like...it like it was a very, like catalyzing experience for me. At least to like, see that and then be like, I want to help people like that. I want to like know what to do when my friends get hurt. Bex Yeah, totally. And I feel like doing a street medic training and getting involved in that world was a really catalyzing experience for me as well, where previously, when I would witness, you know, like, police brutalizing someone at a protest, I would be overwhelmed with this sense of helpless rage, where I'm, you know, you're like watching something terrible happening and there's nothing you can do or like, you feel like that in that moment. And one of the big things that I love about emergency medicine in general--whether it's street medicine or wilderness emergency medicine or what have you--is his emphasis on calm, like spreading calm, and bringing calm to a situation. And like, Yeah, we should all be fucking mad and energized, but we can like find a place of calm and purpose in our responses rather than feeling completely overwhelmed by hopelessness or rage. And I think that in general, like, when people have a sense of agency in a situation--whether it's a situation in their own personal life or in a protest scenario or what have you--if you feel like, there was something I could do, I could participate in some way, I had some agency here in how I chose to respond, we know that sense of agency reduces the sort of like, permanent traumatic mark that that makes on us. And how we recover psychologically from witnessing or experiencing those things has a lot to do with what we felt we were capable of in our response in that moment. And I think that, for me, having this skill set around first aid, just makes me feel more empowered and able to act and I think that is like, good for my brain. Inmn Yeah, yeah. So like, obviously, it's good for there to be people who know a lot about first aid or a lot about responding to emergencies, like people who have extensive training in doing that but why is it important for everyone to have a basic understanding of how to respond to emergencies? Like why, if we have this zine, if there's, like, you know, if there's just people running around who have 80 hours of training, like what is reading a zine about it going to do for me? Bex Yeah. I love this question. Because we...just because someone's running around with 80 hours of training or more or is a professional, doesn't mean that other people have to rely on that person. Like, we should not be recreating the hierarchies of the medical industrial complex within our movements or within our communities or within our personal lives. Like, the more that we can sort of like decentralize information, we're also decentralizing that power that people feel like they have to support themselves, to support the people around them. And like, yeah, it's freaking awesome to be able to call up someone who's an expert. Like, I use, different herbs. I'll take tinctures or use salves, but I don't actually know shit about herbalism. And it's really useful to be able to call up a buddy and be like, "Hey, this is what's going on, like, what would you recommend?" but I also want to be able to have my own little apothecary, and like, make my own little stuff that I do feel comfortable with. And, I don't want to have to rely on someone else for all of my interactions with that, and I think that sort of like general first aid is a similar thing. Like it's great to have people with more experience around, but we should all know how to clean a wound and recognize signs of infection, or like when to be worried about a head injury, or how to help someone out who's like gotten too hot or too cold, or get fucking tear gas off someone's face and mucous membranes. Inmn Yeah, yeah. And there's actually...there's a funny thing that I want to ask you about because I feel like I see it get...like it's something that is not covered in the basic first aid for emergency zine and something that I see get talked about less but I feel like is like wildly important and applicable to most people's lives. So like, you know, your experience of having a concussion and not realizing how dangerous it was, like, I think we can all relate. We've all like got...a lot of us have gotten into a bike accident and then been, like, "Oh, I'm fine, except I did hit my head, but I was wearing a helmet. So I'm probably fine." Bex All of us here have crashed our bikes, right? Inmn Or like, you know, hit your head on something like or had a friend who hit their head on something. And what are the important things to keep in mind when someone has hit their head and they're unsure about whether they have a concussion? Like, when is the...when does it go from "I'm okay," to, "I have to seek, like some kind of higher level of care for what's going on"? Bex Yeah, totally. Well, like, the basic thing that we're worried about with head injuries is swelling to the brain because there's just not much room inside the skull for the brain to swell at all. And right, like something that gets injured, like if I like, twist my ankle, that ankle is going to swell. There's plenty of room for it to do that. There's not room for the brain to swell up without like, creating some more serious problems. And so that's like, generally what we're worried about. And you can bump your head, you can bump your head pretty dang hard and not get a concussion, like not get a head injury. If you hit your head and you're like, "Oh, yeah, it hurts where I hit my head. And maybe I've got a little bit of a headache from that bonk." We're not worried about that. But if you hit your head, and you're like, "Oh, now I feel kind of dizzy. And I actually feel kind of nauseous, or I can't really remember that like moment of impact, or like my vision is affected, maybe I'm like seeing stars a little bit or a little bit of blurriness," then you might be looking at sort of a mild head injury and you just want to take that pretty seriously. You can go get checked out at a at a clinic, if you are able to access that resource. And in general, you just want to like monitor those symptoms and make sure it's not getting any worse. And rest. With head injuries we need cognitive rest as well as physical rest. So, there used to be all this stuff about like, "If someone gets a concussion, don't let them sleep. Wake them up every you know, 10 minutes with this, like secret passcode they have to remember," and like we do not do that anymore. Like if someone has a head injury, actually they like really need to rest. And like sleep is great. And we want to let people sleep like please. Inmn I feel like that was the unfortunate plot of like so many like 90s sitcoms was like, like kind of torturing someone into staying awake while they're concussed. Bex Yeah, but if you're experiencing that stuff, and you've had some kind of blow to the head, like definitely consider going to get checked out. Concussions are complex. They get worse, the more times that you've had one. You become more and more sensitive to concussions, even from like a minor head bump. And there are also...there's like a long recovery period from a concussion, like it can be like many, many months of recovery, so it helps to get checked out. And then if it's a serious head injury, you want to like get to, like get to a clinical setting, like whether that's the urgent care emergency room or like whatever, like you want to get there right away. If you're having things...if someone has a head injury and they are getting like...they're having like personality changes, like they're becoming really irritable, combative, they're like disoriented, they're having like a really bad headache, they're getting super sleepy or lethargic. If someone has a head injury and then has a seizure. If there's any bleeding from like, the nose or eyes or ears or like other fluid coming from the ears, this person needs to get to like a higher level of care as fast as possible. Inmn Yeah, yeah. And maybe you mentioned it and maybe you didn't, but is is vomiting also a strange sign? Bex Oh, yeah. Well, okay, with head injuries, everyone gets like one free vomit. And then if there's like more vomiting than that then we would consider that that might be like a serious head injury. I'm not sure exactly of like the physiology there of like why there's this vomiting, but there is...yeah, there can be like a lot of vomiting or even like projectile vomiting from from a serious head injury Inmn Yeah. Listeners, you might be noticing that I'm asking Bex a lot of like kind of leading questions. This is, this is partially because I have a fair amount like medical training as well, and--all of which is like horribly lapsed--like, I kind of got out of practicing as like a person who does medical stuff except like casually to myself and my friends a while ago. Bex We're both lapsed wilderness EMTs it turns out, Inmn yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, yeah, thank you, thank you so much for that little explanation. I feel like it is a...you know, obviously, if anyone is worried about something then they should, you know, go to urgent care or go to the emergency room. But I feel like there was a lot of, like, in between things were we're like, "I don't know." And like going to the ER or the urgent care casually is like, not something that people can, like, always afford to do. Bex Yeah, but we do want to pay...like, I would urge people to be very cautious with head injuries. One thing that we've learned from the great sport of American football is that head injuries are very serious and do get worse and repeated head injuries...like if your brain is just getting pummeled all the time that can add up to really serious cognitive, emotional, and like, even like personality impacts. And it's just not...it's not good. It's not good to hurt your brain. So, being like really careful, making sure that someone is getting rest, getting checked out if they're having these symptoms is great. Inmn Yeah, yeah. And yeah, again, listeners, like, you know, we are...this is not medical advice. This is... Bex This is not a medical training. Inmn This is not a medical training. But we are trying to kind of cover some basics for people to think about, but highly suggest if you want to learn more about these things to go out and attend more extensive trainings on how to assess these things. So Bex.... Bex Inmn... Inmn You have been involved in this world for quite a while now, right? Like the world of first aid and responding to emergencies. Bex Yeah. Inmn I was wondering if you wanted to kind of talk about like, just, like, kind of like, experiences or like stories that you might have of, responding to emergencies, providing first aid in like various contexts, like...yeah, do you have any kind of like, notably interesting things? This isn't a leading question? Bex I mean, I feel like, like running around as a street medic, you see all kinds of things, you know, a lot of like, flushing chemical weapons out of people's eyes, definitely have supported people with head injuries, sometimes from police munitions, and working with people who are like, "Oh, I'm bleeding from the scalp, but I don't want to go to the hospital." And then you're just like, "Okay, well, how about your friends that are with you, like, here's this list of things to watch out for, like, here's how we're going to take care of this person." or I feel like, like, notable moments for me have often been like, when I can, like, empower people to like, look after themselves, or like look after the people that they're with, and I can like, do what I can to support someone, but I'm not like therefore positioning myself as like, "And now I am the expert and I've like taken you over and I'm gonna like tell you what you have to do now," or whatever but. Definitely, like one really eye opening moment for me--and I talked about this more in the Live Like the World is Dying gunshot wound episode was like responding to someone with a gunshot wound at a protest. Which at the time, I think it was like 2016 or something, at the time. I was like, that was not what I was expecting to see at a protest. And it really threw me. I like didn't really feel prepared to deal with that sort of like extreme of an of an injury. And since then, now, I feel like the like gun violence in a protest setting is super common. And there have been many demonstrations or actions that I've been at where people have gotten shot. And, it's like a really, it's a really scary thing to witness. And it's also scary the way that it has become such a sort of, like, predictable part of like, the landscape of kind of like radical movements and demonstrations. And, one thing that I remember was like being at a demo and seeing someone get shot and then, you know, I'm there like trying to pull out my, like, pull out my, like trauma response stuff from my medic fanny pack. And before I even can, like, get those things out, there's like a bunch of street medics who are like supporting this person. And I'm like, "Hey, I think I like... it's possible that I'm like, recognizing some of those people from like a medic training that I helped to run a couple of months ago." And that moment, like, even in that moment, that was like extremely scary and traumatizing being like, "Oh, like the transferring of information and the like, sharing and like broadening of like this knowledge base is very much like changing the outcomes that people are having in really bad situations because there's all these people who know how to respond. And especially I think, like in 2020, like, everyone started like running around with like, a tourniquet strapped on their belt, you know, because we're just like, seeing so much gun violence in those spaces in a new way. And I think that like that, that is great. And that, like, if nothing else, like knowing how to respond to like, really major life threatening things is... and having the tools to be able to do so is awesome. Inmn Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is really amazing to see that. It's funny, I have like, kind of a, like, personal story of where I was incredibly relieved that there were so many people who had training around, which...it's a vulnerable story in that, like, I don't love how I responded, but like, it was a good learning experience for me of like, I had been doing like street medic stuff for like a long time and I'd been doing...like I was a wilderness EMT at this point, and--but you know, I'd never worked as an EMT before--and I was at a thing and I watched someone get run over by a car. And spoiler alert is that this person was like, fucking miraculously fine. Like, literally nothing was wrong with this person. Like, which was incredible. But at the time, like, I was the closest person. And I, like I froze. And because I'd never witnessed something like that before and that's not what I was expecting to have to deal with and like...but, you know, I went over, and I started to try to assess what was going on and then like, three other people swooped in, all of whom had a lot more experience than I did, to which I was so grateful, because I was like, "Hell yeah, there's a more qualified person here to bottomline this situation, I'm just gonna, like help with creating a perimeter around this person so that we can make sure that they're okay." Bex Yeah, totally. Yeah, that sounds extremely intense. And I'm glad that...I'm glad that you were there. I'm glad that those other folks are there. And, you know, I guess like, in...like, as a street medic...or, like, I'm not into like, "Yeah, I hope I get to go out and like, see something gnarly so I get to, like, respond to it, so I can have some experience, like some personal experience of like, getting to do something." That is not what I'm in it for or like a mentality that I am at all interested in engaging with. But, like in that situation, if those other people hadn't shown up, like, yeah, you were overwhelmed, maybe scared. This like wasn't what you were expecting to see. But, you like, had your assessment tools and you like, had those skills, and if no one else had been there, you would have been a great person to have responded to the situation, even though you had that sense of relief of like, "Thank God, there's someone else here," or whatever. And I feel like moving from a place of like, "I just saw something happen to somebody or something happened to me and I have no idea what to do, like don't even know where to begin," or being like...like moving from that place to like, "Damn, this absolutely sucks. And I wish it wasn't happening, but like, I guess I could figure out how to deal with it." Like, that is actually like a really big difference. And I want to support people in moving in that direction, you know, even if it sucks to have to see shit like that. I don't know. Inmn Yeah, if I'm, if I'm going to a....if I'm going somewhere where I expect there to be like a higher probability of like someone being injured--whether that's to a demonstration or whether that's to a youth hardcore show where people really like to like throw elbows--I hope that I'm not going to see anyone get injured, like if I'm providing medical care, like, either as like, "I am here to provide medical care" or is like someone who's just there and like has a little first aid kit--because that is a smart thing for everyone to have--then like, I hope that I never have to use it. I hope that no one gets injured. That would be a better day for everyone. But, it is like part of the like ritual of being prepared that we like learn how to deal with these situations even in small ways. Which, brings me to my next question for you. What are...what are...if you had to give like a short little blurb to people about like, if people want to learn more about first aid in like a small way, say they've read this zine, like, what is the next step for people and what what situations should people like focus on whether they're like at a demonstration or it's just like, another piece of like--saying normal doesn't feel like the right phrase--but like, part of their normal life, you know? Bex Yeah, their everyday life. Um, there's a lot of different types of trainings that folks can seek out starting with, like CPR. A CPR, training is a great place to start. And now you can do, you can even like get CPR trained online and just like watch a bunch of videos. It's better to do like hands on practice, I think that's where we really like, can start building muscle memory around these skills. But, there's like CPR training. Places like the Red Cross offer a basic first aid training. And then there's also these like street medic trainings. So, if you have a street medic, group or collective in your area, like, seek out a 20 hour street medic training, or there are different organizations that offer Wilderness First Aid trainings that are, you know, definitely have some overlap with the street medic training in that both of these things are like you're in an environment where you can't just call 911 and expect that an ambulance is going to be able to like roll up in the next five minutes, either because you're like in the back country, or you're like behind the police line, or what have you. And then there's bigger trainings on the wilderness side that you can pursue like a Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness, EMT. A lot of counties, especially like rural counties that are having trouble staffing up their EMS, I know some folks who have been able to get an EMT training, like a three month EMT training, totally paid for by their county if they agreed to like, volunteer with the fire department for a year or something like that. So that's another way to get like a lot of training for free if you are willing to interface with the like, often shitty hierarchical structures that put you in the role of being like the sort of like, dehumanizing disembodied medic, but you can like bring to that, you know, you can try to like, bring a better, like, approach to that situation. But yeah, all kinds of things like that. And to go back to your point of like, being prepared for things every day and not just like when I'm like going out to a demo, but kind of like, yeah, what we do on the daily to like, prepare for different situations, I'll say that I keep a like a tourniquet and a trauma response kit in my car at all times, just like in a fanny pack strapped to the back of the headrest, in case I come across like a car accident while I'm just like cruising around. Or if, you know, like in today's fucking modern society like your like just as likely it feels like to respond to like gunshots when you're like like passing by a shopping mall or like outside of fucking school or something like this because there's like, there's just so many shootings. There's so much gun violence. There's so many like mass shooting situations that I think that like a Stop the Bleed training that different like organizations offer, even like that on its own is something that might be useful for folks that hopefully they'll never have to use but Inmn Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is that is what we hope. Yeah, I feel like personally, if I had to recommend like two lower barrier things that everyone should go out and do it is learning about CPR and a Stop the Bleed training because these are like two pretty, like, easy to access trainings that can make huge differences in whether somebody survives an injury. Bex Absolutely. I'll also say that like, I feel like I've like talked a fair amount of smack, as is appropriate, on like, the medical industrial complex and like the shitty hierarchies within sort of like clinical emergency medicine or like hospital settings. Those are these like, really like dehumanizing, disembodied environments that really take away patient agency in a lot of cases. But, within those systems, there are a lot of like, really, like, deeply radical badass, like incredible people working within those systems. And if you are interested in like getting involved with a medical practice professionally, or if you are already in that world, you're a med tech, or a nurse or a doctor or, you know, whatever, a paramedic, and you want to find other radical people who are interested in approaching that work together, there are people who are doing that. There's actually--by the time this airs, it probably will have already happened--but there's a really cool convergence happening on the east coast this month in May, that's the Health Autonomy Convergence that's for people who are working within the medical system but are coming at it from a anarchist, anti authoritarian, abolitionist perspective. And finding networks like that, like ways to decentralize our knowledge and skills and like, connect with other like radical folks who are interested in this is just so exciting to me. It's very cool. Inmn Yeah, yeah. I just want to say that, like, a real good reason for everyone to learn about first aid and for everyone to learn these basics is that, one, as we're seeing things change in like how police violence or like violence from other sources of fascism occurs, like, we can't even rely on these kind of like networks as much for like, every situation and like, it is helpful for everyone to have some understanding of what to do in an emergency. One, because it like, takes pressure off of those other groups and also because like, it means that like, you know, the best resource that we have are people and so like another person to know how to do this thing or to like, not need as much like care from someone is a great thing. Like, we yeah, we should all be learning basics of these skills because it makes everyone's lives easier. Bex Yeah, and supporting each other in it. Like if you...like, the number one tool that a street medic has in their kit is a buddy. You always go with a buddy. You don't go alone because it's easier to keep a cool head and have good decision making, and stay sort of like oriented and situationally aware and like know what's happening if you are running with another person, and you both have like, even if you have different levels of experience or training, like you've got another person there to help navigate that situation with. And we can can offer one another like so much strength and resilience just by like being present and like tuned in to the same stuff together. One time my medic buddy that I would always run with was like out of town and there was like something happening in the city where I lived and I was like, "I'll just go by myself. It's like no big deal. Like I don't need a buddy. I'm sure it'll be fine." And I was like, such a huge mistake. It ended up being like a fairly like traumatizing experience for me where I was like, "Oh, wait, actually like being in this alone and being like, 'I'm trying to like respond and be prepared,' and like I don't have someone with me who's going through that with me and like tuning into this with me," was...I wouldn't do it again. Inmn Yeah, yeah. Bex So, find a pal. Find a pal who's interested in first aid and fucking skill up together. It's like extremely fun. And you can practice your patient assessment on each other. It's great. Inmn Yeah, yeah, learning is fun. And, you know, the more that we learn these skills now, the less overwhelming they will be, if we are ever faced with an emergency that we have to deal with. Like, yeah, learn it now so it's less stressful in the moment. Bex Yeah, and like learn from sources that are reliable. Like the materials that Riot Medicine has available, like this zine is super tight. I haven't looked through all of their other materials, like in depth, but it's like very legit, or like going to a street medic training, or another training so that you know that your skills that you're building are coming from some sort of reputable source and you don't end up as like, the wacky chaos medic that everyone dreads who's like, running around in like head-to-toe camo with gallons of milk swinging from their belt. And, you know, like, don't be the chaos medic. Like, learn some real skills that are like based in...that are scientifically based and like vetted and bring calm to the situation. Inmn Yeah, yeah. Speaking of calm... [interrupted] Bex Take your chaos elsewhere. Your chaos has a place and it is not in medicking. Inmn Speaking of calm. So, real quick, we have this last little segment since this is the Strangers podcast, even if you're hearing it on the Live like the World is Dying feed. We have a quick word of the month where this is a word that I learn a little bit about the origins of and then asked people if they know anything about it. And I've maybe given you a clue. But, Bex, do you know anything...Do you know the word anemone? Bex Like a sea anemone. Inmn Yeah, like I sea anemone. But, there are other kinds of anemones as well. Bex Like the sea anemone of my enemy is my friend-enenomy? Inmn Yeah, that's that's absolutely the origin. You just guessed it. Bex Tell me more. Inmn Do you have any guesses as to like what the word anemone means? Or, where where it comes from? Bex Anemone, anemone? No, I do not know. But it really sounds like enemy. Inmn It does. It does. So, anemone. So there's sea anemone, but then there's also like, there's a plant that's called anemone. And interestingly, this plant is used to...it's used for a lot of different things medicinally and, how I'm familiar with it is that it was...someone recommended it to me for like panic attacks. And in very low doses. Very, very low doses. This is a... Bex Consult an herbalist. Inmn This is a...this can be a dangerous plant. So, flowering plant anemone comes directly from Latin "anemone," and then from the Greek "anemone," which comes from two little pieces. There's "anemos" and a, you know, "feminine" suffix. So, "anemos" means wind. And so anemone literally means "wind flower" or "daughter of the wind." And some people think that...or like, you know, one one attribution to that name is anemone blooms only during a storm. And it's like...interestingly, its petals are attached to seed pods. And so when the wind blows, the flower opens, and it rips it apart. And the petals are like each attached to a little seed pod. So that is like...the flower is like destroyed and propagates by getting caught in the wind. But interestingly--and this is this is where I think it gets really fun and interesting--is there's a cognate in Latin "anima" or shortened to "ane" which means to breathe. And anemone, as we just learned, is a plant that you can take when having a panic attack to help you breathe. Bex Dang. That is very cool. And that's like a very beautiful image. You have like, that description of the flower being like ripped apart in a storm, but like that propagating, and I feel like that really resonates with me in terms of like, the things that we face that like feel like this huge destructive force, whether that's like things happening like emotionally or psychologically or also like the literal violence that people witness and experience. And like, how can you like harness that, like, violence or destruction and like see where they're like seeds of beautiful things that will like, be planted or like can grow from that, even if like the destruction itself is like the loss of something beautiful, it doesn't mean it's the end of beautiful things coming. Inmn Yeah. And like first aid, we can bloom and show and spread, unfortunately, sometimes through turbulent times. And this ended up being a very appropriate word that I kind of picked at random to be part of this episode. So, I know you'd have to run, but real quick, Is there anywhere on the internet that people can find you that you would like to be found? And the answer can be "No." Bex No, there's nowhere to find me on the internet. But, you should check out Riot Medicine, which I legitimately am like definitely not a part of or have anything to do with, but it is very cool. And Oh, one other thing I'll just quickly say here for folks who have listened to the gunshot wound episode of Live Like the World is Dying, I would like to make a little amendment. When I recorded that episode, I had some outdated information about tourniquets. And in that episode, I described tourniquets as really a tool of last resort. And what we actually know is that tourniquets are a really safe intervention to use. You can, if applied correctly and if it is a sort of like legitimate tourniquet like the CAT gen 7, the combat application tourniquet, these can safely be left on for a really long time. There have been recorded incidents from our long history of global capitalist imperialist warfare. We've learned a lot about combat medicine. And there have been incidences of like a tourniquet staying on for up to 48 hours without that limb being compromised. Do not be afraid to use a tourniquet. Check out that episode if you want more information about specifically Stop the Bleed stuff. But, just take this little amendment to the tourniquet section. Inmn Great. Thank you so much Bex for coming on the podcast. Bex Thanks for having me. Inmn Yeah, stay well. Bex Bye. Inmn Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please go take a first aid training, and then tell us about it. But also tell people about the podcast. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support this podcast by talking about it on social media, rating and reviewing and doing whatever the algorithm calls for. Feed it like hungry god. But, if you would like to support us in other sillier ways that don't involve feeding a nameless entity then you can check us out on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is the publisher of this podcast and a few other podcasts including our monthly feature podcast of anarchistic literature, Strangers and a Tangled Wilderness, which comes out monthly, as well as the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is a great podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And just to give you an idea of some other stuff that Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is up to, we are also getting ready to put out a new book To the Ghosts Who are Still Living by Ami Weintraub. The stories of our ancestors call to us from across time asking to be remembered. In retelling our ancestors experiences of love, tradition, loss and sorrow we not only honor their lives, but we come to understand our own. The trees whisper to the ones who will listen, "Come home." To the Ghosts Who are Still Living is a collection of essays by Ami Weintraub, coming out August, 2023 through Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. The preorder starts July 1st. And we would like to shout out a few of our patrons in particular. Thank you Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis, Janice & O'dell, Paige, Aly, Paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Shawn, S. J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Kat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. We seriously couldn't do this without y'all. And I hope everyone out there is doing as well as they can with everything that's happening and we'll talk to you soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

It shouldn't be illegal to feed hungry, unhoused folks, and yet this is now the case in Houston and cities across America. Shere Dore is a homeless advocate in Houston who has been working to feed her unhoused neighbors since 2011. She is a devoted member of Food Not Bombs – a movement composed of volunteers who come together in cities around the world to provide food for hungry and unhoused folks. Shere has been rewarded for her important work with 8 TICKETS from the city of Houston since March 1st. Collectively, the volunteers in Houston FNB have received 22 tickets for feeding homeless folks outside of the public library. The end of this episode contains a tribute to forest defender Tortuguita, who was killed for protesting the development of Cop City. Tort was a volunteer with  Tallahassee  Food Not Bombs.   I connected with the folks at the Tallahassee Food Not Bombs group Tort volunteered with, and people had such wonderful things to say about Tort. At the end of this episode, you'll hear from a member of this group. RESOURCES: Houston FNB site Follow Houston FNB! Facebook & InstagramFollow Tallahassee FNB InstagramSupport Tallahassee FNB SUPPORT HOUSTON FNB!How to VOLUNTEER with a FNB chapter or start one!Mutual Lemon-Aid MocktailMakes 2 liters6Large lemons with shiny and healthy looking skins350mlJuice from the six lemons250mlGranulated sugar (by volume)1.5LWaterlarge pinch of saltPeel the lemons with a peeler, getting as much of the peel off as possible while leaving  the white pith. Put peels in a container, cover with granulated sugar and massage the peels with your hands or a muddler to release the oils into the sugar. Cover and let stand for 3 to 24 hours if possible. Periodically stir the mixture to help incorporate the oil into the sugar. Juice the six lemons and filter out any seeds. After letting the peels and sugar sit, add the lemon juice, water, and salt and stir well until all the sugar is incorporated. Strain out the lemon peels and chill well before serving. To serve, simply pour over ice in your favorite glasses and garnish with a lemon peel. You can also add your favorite spirit for a boozy option. Enjoy!  Glassware:  Collins glassGarnish: Lemon wheelABV: 0%Pro tip: take about five cardamom pods & smash to break open. Gently toast the pods in a pan on the stove until fragrant—a few minutes. Add  pods to the lemon peel and sugar mixture and let steep while the sugar is drawing out the oils from the peels. Remove the pods when you filter out the peels. Support the showCocktails & Capitalism is an anticapitalist labor of love, but we could use your help to make this project sustainable. If you can support our work with even a dollar a month, that would really help us continue to strengthen the class consciousness of folks suffering under capitalism around the globe. https://www.patreon.com/cocktailsandcapitalism

On this midweek show, Executive Director of 350 Seattle Shemona Moreno shares with Crystal how the organization approaches climate justice work through deep systems change. Shemona outlines a vision for a just transition that moves us from an extractive to a regenerative economy that includes accountability for our impacts on both the local and global scale. 350 Seattle's current focus on Green New Deal policy yes campaigns and their Electrify Seattle campaign leads to discussion of false solutions such as “renewable natural gas” and carbon offsets. Crystal and Shemona wrap up with tactics used in 350 Seattle's advocacy and how to get involved with them to make a difference. As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at officialhacksandwonks.com. Follow us on Twitter at @HacksWonks. Find the host, Crystal Fincher, on Twitter at @finchfrii and find 350 Seattle at @350_Seattle.   Shemona Moreno Shemona is an activist, leader, changemaker, and the Executive Director of 350 Seattle. A proud Latinx & Black woman, her mother is an immigrant from Mexico and her father a descendant of enslaved African people. These origins ground Shemona's work in the fierce commitment to amplifying demands of frontline communities hurt first and worst by climate catastrophe. She trusts that cultivating deep relationships among organizations fighting for racial, economic, gender, disability, and climate justices is how we build collective power to interrupt systems of oppression. She also really loves donuts with sprinkles and bright red shoes.   Resources 350 Seattle   Electrify Seattle Campaign | 350 Seattle   Electrify Seattle 1-Pager | 350 Seattle   “Climate activists warn “renewable natural gas” may be the newest form of greenwashing” by Guy Oron from Real Change News   Guy Oron Twitter thread: Latest news on "renewable natural gas" greenwashing   “Cap & Trade Fails Communities” from 350 Seattle   “How Washington plans to spend money from the new carbon-cap law” by Joseph O'Sullivan from Crosscut   “Two Years of Giving Chase…Hell” by Alec Connon from 350 Seattle   Transcript [00:00:00] Crystal Fincher: Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes. Today I am very excited to be welcoming Shemona Moreno, who is the Executive Director of 350 Seattle. Welcome to the show. [00:01:02] Shemona Moreno: Hi, thanks for having me. [00:01:03] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. I just wanted to start off - wondering what brought you to this work? [00:01:09] Shemona Moreno: What brought me to 350 Seattle and climate work was some really good friends that were involved first. I had noticed they had started getting more involved in climate work over the summer back in 2016, and they invited me along to one of the events that they were participating in - sharing a little bit more about the work. And I was inspired. I was - Wow, this is really cool - the stuff you're doing here is awesome. How do I get involved? And so I started to show up a little bit more and I attended a new volunteer event that 350 Seattle was holding in the winter of 2016. And I got involved - I basically just thought I was showing up for an information session, but they're - No, you're here to plan an action with us. And I was - Okay, cool. And so that's how I got involved with 350 Seattle. But my activism and desire for change was instilled in me very young - my mother was very much involved in social justice issues, specifically around police accountability and police, anti-police brutality. And so she was very involved in all that and she brought her kids along with her, so we were very active in the community - worked in various different organizations, like Books to Prisoners, Food Not Bombs, working with socialists organizations. Back in the day, Refuse and Resist was a big organization. And yeah, it's cool to go back and look at pictures of just little Shemona standing on the side of the street saying "Free Mumia," so I have - it's in my blood. And now it's - as the climate movement, specifically around climate justice, is something that actually calls to me a little bit more 'cause the climate crisis is urgent, but I also believe the approach to the climate crisis needs to be thought of in intersection with other justice issues - like racial justice, gender justice, economic justice. And at 350 Seattle, the approach we take very much considers that - we approach our climate justice work through the idea of deep systems change. 'Cause if we don't change these systems of harm and oppression, then there's no solving the climate crisis - and there's no solving it on its own without addressing all of the issues. [00:03:26] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely, and that's part of why I find 350 Seattle so inspiring. Can you tell me just more about 350 Seattle, what it stands for, and what type of work you're involved in? [00:03:39] Shemona Moreno: Yeah, so 350 Seattle - our mission is we work towards climate justice by organizing people to make deep system change, like resisting fossil fuels, building momentum for healthy alternatives, and fostering resilient, just, and welcoming communities. The main message in there is that we really strive for what we call a just transition - moving our extractive economy and these extractive governments into one that's regenerative - we're lots of community owned, community resilient world. So trying to build that better future that we have. And at 350 Seattle, we have undergone some changes - we started back in 2013 before I even was around. And over the past few years, when the Green New Deal came onto the scene before the pandemic, that we started to invest more in what we call our yes campaigns - community solutions, things we want to say yes to. And so that's - we've moved into saying, doing more work around saying yes to solutions - what solutions can we put in place to move us away from fossil fuel and invest more in housing, transportation, community care, and things like that. And so 350 Seattle's really focused right now for the next three years on Green New Deal policies yes campaigns, but all the while still saying - being in solidarity with issues that are saying no to fossil fuel infrastructure and holding polluters accountable and those that invest in them. So a lot of divestment campaign. So yeah, that's a very small, little overview of what 350 Seattle's doing. And for me - my part in that - I was recently promoted to Executive Director, I'd say about five months ago. And before that I was Deputy Director. And then before that I was our Equity Director and did some volunteer engagement as well. So I've been slowly but surely - not that slow, it's happened pretty fast - saying yes and taking on more and more responsibility. And I'm excited to be in this new leadership role to really fully realize a lot of the visions that we've created for ourselves and to put ourselves on a path for change and success. [00:05:50] Crystal Fincher: Another thing is just looking at different organizations - looking at the approaches that they take and how they operate internally, impacting how they're able to impact the community externally. And one of just kind of the pillars in your strategic vision is investing in staff and organizational sustainability. What does that mean, and what does that look like, and why is that important to the work? [00:06:13] Shemona Moreno: I think it came out of - like most organizations, the pandemic really wiped us out. It challenged us in a way that we were not prepared for. How do we take care of our people? How do we transition actions onto online? It took us a year just to even figure out how do these online tools work? We didn't - 'cause we had never invested in doing any digital organizing. We were always - we're in the streets, we're talking to our community - out and - but at that point when the pandemic came, you couldn't do that because it wasn't safe. And so a lot of our work came to a full stop - there was a lot of things that just stopped. And so we slowly but surely found ways to engage people online. And even though it's not the same, you can't stop. You have to find a way to make it work with the community in the circumstances that they're in. And so investing, and also to be very real - people got sick. We've had people who passed leave. So you have to - what are we doing to make sure that there is care there? That we all have good insurance, that people - we're doing mutual aid and making sure we're checking in on each other. And so I think it was a big reckoning for us and for a lot of people that we need to really invest in the people here. We need to make sure that the work is sustainable so that people can feel like they can come back to this work at any time and plug in, both on a volunteer level all the way up to staff and board level. And we wanna make sure that the work we're doing is on a path to achieve the greatness that we wanna achieve - there's so much change that you have to make, but in order to do that, you have to make sure the people who are there are taken care of as well. So the investing in staff - what that looks like tangibly was making sure that we're paying people a livable wage - inflation, the rents are sky high in Seattle. And so we wanted to make sure that what we were paying our staff - that they could live in Seattle, they could survive here. And also just what that looks like is investing in a lot of different tools to make sure that the work we can do is accessible for people, that we're taking in account people's safety and comfort. 'Cause no one wants to do it if they're not gonna be considered - accessibility was also a huge thing that we had to start investing in and paying attention to, 'Cause I think a lot of organizations really don't think about accessibility when they're thinking about equity as well. Usually people tackle one issue at a time, but you have to - there's layers because not one person is - I'm only concerned about this one identity thing. I'll be transparent - our staff and volunteers - we have a lot of people who have long COVID. And how do we take care of those people? How do we make our work accessible so people can still show up in whatever capacity they have? So it was a big goal for us. And I'm pretty proud that we're really chipping away at all of the things that we set ahead of us. [00:09:01] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, and I think that's important in a number of organizations who historically have not focused on accessibility are now being woken up to finally on how important it really is, and how we can't really fight for justice if we leave people out of the movement. It becomes counterproductive at that point. Now, some of the values that 350 Seattle talks about, holds are - one, climate change being a profound and urgent threat to all life on the planet, but most especially and most immediately to those in the Global South. What does your work around that principle entail, and how does that shape the work? [00:09:41] Shemona Moreno: I think over the years, we've done a lot of learning of what that means and what does accountability look like too. As an organization based in the United States, there's a lot of learning that goes into that - understanding the privilege of being in the United States. And also just really thinking about how we fit into a global context of just a lot of - even something not simple, but just like those things of just - a lot of our trash was getting shipped overseas. A lot of the trash that we - people just throw on the ground that gets into the oceans - a lot of the currents - that sweeps up on seas, like in the South. And I've traveled around the world of just in different places, even just witnessing - wow, these beautiful places covered in trash and there's no resources to help clean it up. And a lot of that stuff is because of the United States and even just American investors investing in fossil fuel infrastructure in places all over the world. I know in South Africa, they're - in across Africa, not just South Africa - 'cause I recently came back from there, just learning about the different things and the fossil fuel projects that are happening there - it's American investors helping pay for all of that. And it's - so there is an accountability to the rest of the world, specifically the Global South. And also to understand that it's not about saving the Global South, it's about listening and being in solidarity. And when there is trust and built allyship, then we can be co-conspirators on change. Like it's not 350 Seattle - we're gonna decide what is good for the Global South. I'm - one, the Global South is such a huge broad term. Who are you even talking about when you say that sometimes? But people have it in their head of what that means. And I think what we really wanna make sure that we're doing education on is - we are accountable and we're accountable by making sure that we are aware of the things that we do and how it impacts not just our community, but the larger global community. That we are doing the education that we need to - what are the ripple effects of all the changes that we make here? Because people look here to see what's happening, what are they doing, and how is that going to affect change in other places? And so making sure we're aware that what we're choosing to do - we're thinking through what potential ripples there might be from that. And I'll say we're - sometimes this principle gets lost and a lot of the work we do tend to focus hyper locally. And I think recently we have an opportunity to plug in more into the global context - partnering with more organizations that have sister cities or have more connections to - in the Pacific, in Africa, in South America, especially when we're talking about immigration justice. We need to be - we can't really solve that issue on our own here - what does that look like to be in partnership with organizers in other places? And also sometimes it's just about shutting up and - Show me the money, here's some resources, here's the things that we can offer you - we have so much access to money here, especially in Washington. Sometimes all it is is - Yes, we will pay for that. We will support you in this way. Just tell us when and where. [00:12:45] Crystal Fincher: So now you have this global vision. What is the local action that you have been focused on? What are the biggest opportunities locally, and what have you been working on locally? [00:12:56] Shemona Moreno: Right now we're in the middle of a campaign called Electrify Seattle. And so this campaign is focused on - we have three major demands - is making sure that the timeline for transitioning off of fossil fuels is moved up. Specifically around our large buildings over 20,000 square feet in Seattle - that those buildings are moved to achieve net zero emissions by 2030 or 2035. And so that's a campaign that we're working on now. And then in that, we wanna make sure we're rejecting false climate solutions around renewable natural gas. We know where it comes from, but it's not natural to be doing that - and because of a lot of the health issues and the air pollution that still comes with using gas. Hence the name Electrify Seattle. We wanna make sure that there's no pay-to-pollute incentives of - where people can be - Oh, you can buy your way out of trouble or shift it to something else. So those are the three demands in our Electrify Seattle campaign. But it's complex and there's a lot of research that's having to go into that. And it's a campaign that - we're up against some really big targets. Most people don't realize who owns most of the property in Seattle - it's Amazon, Vulcan, it's UW. People are always shocked to find - who actually owns this land and who are we fighting against? These so-called companies that are - Oh yeah, we support climate solutions. We built the Climate Pledge Arena, remember? And I'm - Okay, but what about all the other buildings in Seattle? And we can't wait until 2050 to do that work. We have to invest in that work now and we have to pay for it. [00:14:38] Crystal Fincher: And that's an interesting point - you talk about some of those false solutions. You talked about natural gas, which is fracked gas. There was a recent controversy for a garbage contractor for the City claiming some very environmentally clean messaging as a reflection of the work that they're doing - it turns out they're using fracked gas as part of this project. And we aren't breathing cleaner air as a result of it - we're breathing dirtier air, unlike their ad copy statements. But it is - it does go to this false solutions. Other things that you classify as false solutions are geoengineering, bioenergy, carbon trading, offsetting carbon taxes. Now, especially with those carbon offsets and trading, we recently passed a huge piece of legislation here in Washington - the Climate Commitment Act. They've called it a cap and invest system, which is a spruced up cap and trade system - but it has already raised money, will raise money that they say they're going to invest in green energy uses. But the money that it's raising is essentially from people buying pollution credits, or buying the ability to pollute over a certain limit. Why do you consider this a false solution, and how do we move forward in this state with this in place? [00:16:06] Shemona Moreno: We consider it a false solution because nothing is actually being solved. It's a loophole - they are allowed to keep doing what they're doing and they can pay to keep doing it. And we all think it's better 'cause they're - We're making money. I'm - We're still making money off of the things that are killing us, that are ravaging the planet. The solution is to stop, not to buy our way out of it. You can't - the damage that we do by continuing to use fossil fuels - we will get to a point where it'll be irreparable and we can't, no money is going to fix it. So that is not a solution. And yeah, there is - I guess - the silver lining to - Oh, there's money. And especially with the Climate Commitment Act, I've been hearing people say a lot more money than we thought. And I'm - Isn't that alarming that there is a lot more money? That means more and more people are buying their way to pollute more - that is not something I'm happy about. And especially, it's sometimes hard to believe that people are going to actually reinvest in the community. 'Cause I don't know - the housing crisis is getting worse and worse. Transportation - I haven't seen improvement. The job market is not the same. I'm just - rent is going higher and higher. More and more people are having to leave the City. And the money that is being raised to reinvest, it's not going to the places that - who need it the most. People who have no responsibility for the damage that's being done to the planet and to the communities. And we're still not investing in them. And I know for sure that there was some - a lot of BIPOC frontline communities were against the Climate Commitment Act, and 350 Seattle was in solidarity with that. But now - all we can do now is just - what is the fight that we need to keep fighting, and keep pushing, and also holding - okay, if we have this money to reinvest, making sure that they are reinvesting it. What is the action? You can't just tell me you're going to do it without any action to do it. So that's where we're at now - is making sure that it is reinvested while also still being - finding a way to be - I don't want to see polluters buying their way out, buying their way out. That is not a solution. [00:18:24] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. It's a challenge and it allows them to get credit for reducing harm in a way that doesn't reduce the harm at the point of pollution. I think that waste management example is pretty appropriate because they're claiming that - Hey, some mitigating activity that we're doing in the Midwest is how we can claim that we're producing cleaner air in the Northwest. And no - the air here is just as dirty to people breathing it to the degree that they are, along with other pollutants that we allow, are part of the reason for such a disparity in the life expectancy in different zip codes in the same City of Seattle. We have to focus on the harm that we're doing. And to your point, it's the people who least afford it - it's BIPOC communities, it's lower income communities who are doing the least amount of polluting, but absorbing the harms from pollution the most. Understanding this - accountability is absolutely something that the organization regularly talks about, takes action on - how important is it to hold polluters and our leaders who are writing policy accountable to reducing actual harm done? And what tactics do you take to hold people accountable in this kind of situation, whether it's the Climate Commitment Act or other local investments? [00:19:47] Shemona Moreno: Yeah, the divestment campaign is - that we work on is, yeah - we call it our accountability work - Hey, you are using money. A lot of that money - it belongs to the people who you're harming. We should have a say in that - is one thing. And a lot of the tactics we use is just trying to get at the hearts of some of these shareholders, customers, managers - I think there are - you try that first and then you try demands. And then you try just - All right, here are - we're gonna be out in the street. Then we try action. And then you do it - it's cyclical of just what you're trying, of the different tactics that you're employing. [00:20:28] Crystal Fincher: And when you say action, what do you mean? [00:20:31] Shemona Moreno: I mean nonviolent direct action. In the past, what I've seen - I've participated in showing up and delivering a letter to the bank manager, and we're not leaving until we see you read this letter, and make promise that you're gonna send this letter up the chain, and that you are in - on the side of - Yeah, this is wrong that we're investing this money that could be fixing the roads, housing these people, affordable healthcare. How is it that the drug crisis - people overdosing in the street - how are we not spending as much money as possible to take care of people? And yet using all of this money to just tear down our communities, and not just any community - BIPOC and frontline communities. How is that allowed? And so that's part of the narrative too, of just - why are we letting this happen? We have a moral obligation to these people. We are accountable to our communities to make sure that they're taken care of. And so we're not leaving here until you hear what we're trying to say. And so that's - I support doing that. And then also it is - on the flip side, it is going in and lobbying and talking to our legislators. And while it is a very complex and disheartening thing sometimes - dealing with the legislative - and the game of politics is just another thing I wish we could change like that. But it's sometimes - you have to find a way in and make yourselves heard in that space too. And sometimes you have to yell - I think we're seeing that across the country, especially with youth showing up in - at their legislators - and demanding change. 'Cause sometimes we've tried letters, we've tried phone calls and emails. We do that - people think we don't. We start there first and we're ignored, and so we have to show up and demand to be heard and we demand change. And then also it ultimately leads to - for the people who can't show up in person and do that, staying informed and voting. So it's just - that's a hard thing for me - is how many people don't vote. And especially in Seattle and Washington - we make it so easy for you to vote. You don't have to go stand in line for hours. It's mailed right to your door. If you lose it, you could print it out again. And so making sure people are staying informed, and who they're voting for, and why they're voting. And just vote. [00:22:56] Crystal Fincher: It's important. It's how - I usually say local politics is organizing - it absolutely impacts your day-to-day living conditions, what happens in your daily life. And oftentimes that has more of a tangible effect on our daily lives than voting in the federal elections. We should all vote for it all, but my goodness, not skip the local elections as so many more people even do. When it comes to that, one of the challenges that we have is - it's a bigger challenge with younger people than with older people - but feeling like politics and voting is relevant at all. And in elections where there is a higher amount of younger people engaged, where politicians and leaders are speaking to issues that are important to younger people, we do see higher turnout in there. And 350 overall - definitely 350 Seattle - is an organization that seems to have much higher youth participation than a lot of other environmental organizations or other organizations in that space. How do you think that impacts the work that you do and the type of tactics that you use? [00:24:09] Shemona Moreno: I think it's a positive impact. It's inspiring. I will say that I think when 350 Seattle and the overall 350 in the US - all the different local groups across the US - are started off pretty - older retiree, white, middle-class. And I think over the years it's been changing and especially since more - honestly, when Trump was elected, I think that was a huge sea change of a moment where people were - Whoa, how did this happen? How do we go from Obama to Trump? It was like an overcorrection of just - Whoa, okay, I can't sit back and do nothing anymore. I think that's one of the reasons why I got involved. I was in my late 20s getting involved at that time. And I think we're seeing that again - with the climate crisis getting worse, housing, transportation, inflation - we're seeing more young people, or as they come into the world a little bit more - What, what is going on? And the threat of they're like - Do I have a future on this planet? What is going to be left for me? Hearing people be - I don't think I'm gonna have kids 'cause I don't think I'm ever gonna be able to afford a house - having to deal with some really hard stuff at such a young age now. And so I'm seeing more and more youth get involved. And especially in 350 Seattle, we're seeing way more kids from high school, college getting involved where normally it was older retirees who - and so I'm just so inspired and so excited to see the change of people showing up. Also one of our goals is to be a multi-generational, multicultural organization and be truly reflective of all the different communities in Seattle and Washington. And we're seeing that, we're seeing so many more young folks coming in, staying excited, and then scaling up and becoming leaders in their own right and taking on more responsibility. And it's just - I don't know - it's exciting. [00:26:10] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. Now locally - whether it's Seattle, whether it's King County - what are the biggest opportunities or biggest areas where we can make an immediate impact when it comes to the environment, greenhouse gas emissions? What are the kind of biggest deals on the table right now? [00:26:29] Shemona Moreno: Ooh, that's a good question. I think we're - we've been thinking a lot about that. I think that's the hardest part sometimes with this is just - Ah, what do you do? There's so much you can do. And then even in just the campaign that we have now that we started off very excited, but then - we are still excited - it's things are complex, things are challenging. There are so many pieces that fit into it. And so there is the opportunity to make big change here, especially in Seattle, but it's gonna be hard to do that. [00:26:59] Crystal Fincher: So what's this current campaign? [00:27:01] Shemona Moreno: Yeah, so the Electrify Seattle campaign - moving off of fossil fuels, particularly gas, which is a big thing in Seattle and electrifying. So yeah, transitioning off of gas - that's such a huge complicated thing, but it is possible if we invest our time and resources in it. And I think the next big thing, I think in Seattle, where you tend to focus just on Seattle - what can we achieve here? And then also thinking about how do we go about that change so it can be basically creating a toolkit for it to be replicated anywhere else in the country. I know they've done this - a lot of this work in New York City, which is where we've been doing some learning from. And what would it be like if other cities around the US did this too? And even outside of that, what other cities in different countries? Obviously there'd be different contexts that you would do this campaign, but that's how we go about doing the work - What can we achieve? What is winnable? What are the resources you need in order to win? And can we scale? What is the scale to that? And so I think opportunities here in Seattle would be electrifying our Port - taking a look at aviation, around they're thinking of expanding the airport. What are the impacts of that? Both environmental and the community - who's gonna be displaced when we do that? And then also just looking at, in the short term, what or how are we building resilient communities across Seattle and even further outside of that? Our campaign from last year was talking about turning our community centers into climate resilient hubs. So making sure our community centers are - have cooling and air filtration, because when this - we now at the past five years, we've had these huge heat domes and smoke events and - Hey, this is Seattle. This is Washington. Most people don't have air conditioning or air filtration. We're just suffocating in our homes - where do people go? Where do our elders go? Where do our children go to breathe clean, cool air? And so how are we preparing ourselves for the effects of climate change? So turning our community centers into resilience hubs, making sure our libraries - places where people congregate naturally or go in emergencies - how are we making sure that they are prepared? [00:29:11] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely - that completely makes sense. Now you talk about electrifying the Port. Is that all of the Port facilities? Is that cruise ships themselves? What does that look like? [00:29:24] Shemona Moreno: And even that's - electrifying the Port - that's, like you said, there's so many possibilities there. In the past, we have done some work on cruise ships and being - We don't want this to be a place where we have these cruise ships the size of gigantic buildings coming in and dirtying up the Sound. It also looks like making sure that the trucks going in and out of the Port, trains - they're not transporting or using fossil fuels. So those are things that you can look at. It's making sure that when boats do come in, that they're plugging into shore power and not just running their engines and all of the toxic waste that just spills out of these boats. [00:30:03] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, many recent studies have - or some recent studies - have indicated that cruise ships are very, very polluting vehicles. They emit a ton of toxins and pollutants, and they just sit there spewing for a while. And lots of people are starting to take exception to that, being that they're breathing the air. [00:30:23] Shemona Moreno: They don't need to be doing that. There are - we have resources and I believe even our Port, to some degree, is electrified that they can plug in. But for some reason, I think there are times that they don't. Why is that allowed to happen? What does it look like to expand that to all of our ports? And what does that look like to scale that to other ports - in Tacoma, poor Tacoma - what does it look like to repair a lot of the harm that's happened in these cities and make sure we don't, in the future, that's not happening again? Yeah, but I'm by no means an expert on what electrifying the Port looks like. So there's still a lot of research and partnership building and reaching out that we need to do. I'm sure there's already a ton of organizations that are focused on that right now. And what does it look like for 350 Seattle to be in partnership with those organizations, and how do we fit in, and what niche do we fill? [00:31:13] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. You mentioned earlier that it's important to recognize how crucial so many other social and economic struggles in our community are, and how fighting climate change is tied to fighting those things. Why is that the case? Why is it so important? [00:31:36] Shemona Moreno: It's so important because when you think about it, you're - how do you possibly separate anything? Everything is so intertwined - the intersections of so many different issues - it's really hard to solve one without even talking about another. And so the way we need to - and I wouldn't want to - What kind of planet? Yeah, the planet's cool, but if we're all still suffering and causing each other harm, what good is it having this clean air if we're still shooting each other in the streets, or people are dying from drug overdoses, or people don't have a home? We have to be solving all of that together so that when we do achieve this just transition - this regenerative economy - that all of our basic needs are being met, people are doing work that they want to be doing, that they care about doing, and that everyone - it feels like they are part of something that is strong and beautiful. That's what holds me. I want something that's strong and beautiful and that everyone is - there's purpose and power for everyone. And in order to do that, you can't just pick - I'm only gonna worry about planting trees and not care about whether or not someone has a home. Or the fact that just - Oh, I only care about this thing, but totally disregard all these other issues. And also - just as for me and a lot of our organizers is, we're not just - there's not just one thing that I care about, there's many things that I care about. And everyone is that way. And so there's gotta be - we have to approach our campaigns really thinking about the different intersections and the impacts that we have when we fight for them. [00:33:10] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And if people wanna get involved in 350 Seattle, or in some of the issues that you've talked about, what can they do? [00:33:20] Shemona Moreno: Getting involved with 350 is pretty easy. You can find our - on our website, you can sign up to get involved. And we have - right now we do a monthly intro to 350 where we talk a little bit about who we are, where we came from, what our vision and plan is. And ways you can get involved - that looks like joining a campaign, looks like joining a different project that we have. There's also community building spaces that we have that you can join. We have our artful activism crew that create the art and joy for our movement - and not just for 350 Seattle - we create a lot of art for a lot of our partner organizations as well. And it's such a low, easy way to get involved. You show up in a community space - there's music, there's food, and you make art - and there's no skills needed. So that's - I always like - that's the best way to start getting involved 'cause then you start to learn about all the different campaigns in a very low stakes way. And then we have things for people who wanna do more of the backend stuff. We have a ton of - I call them my spreadsheet nerds - and they are gonna save the world with one spreadsheet at a time. There's ways you can plug in and - I-only-have-a-couple-hours-a-week to I-actually-have-a-ton-of-time and I wanna get involved. And getting involved in 350 Seattle - really we try to make it more of a community space. So it's not necessarily - I'm gonna show up for one day and do my thing and then I leave. No, you kinda get - we wanna encourage you to get to know someone, to learn about the different aspects of all of the work that we do, even if you are just focused in one campaign role. We really wanna encourage people to level up on themselves to become leaders and organizers. Whether you stay with 350 Seattle or not, we wanna skill people up to go out and make change in their communities. But yeah, check us out on our website. [00:35:14] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. Thank you so much for spending this time with us today and informing us, and we look forward to following the work that you do from here on out. Thank you very much, Shemona. [00:35:25] Shemona Moreno: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. [00:35:26] Crystal Fincher: Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is co-produced by Shannon Cheng and Bryce Cannatelli. You can follow Hacks & Wonks on Twitter @HacksWonks. You can catch Hacks & Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts - just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, leave a review wherever you listen. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com and in the episode notes. Thanks for tuning in - talk to you next time.

Food Not Bombs' Nick Cooper visits to discuss the organization and the attack by the city. Ingrid Bond talks about tonight's Houston Mayoral debate. Why rich countries must fix the environment. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/politicsdoneright/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/politicsdoneright/support

Today on the Show: A deadly attack in Reno, as Trump supporter, David Turner, faces murder charges for purposefully ramming his vehicle into an active Food Not Bombs distribution in Reno. Also, black alliance for peace campaigning for a new zone of peace.  And success for progressiveness in Wisconsin. The post Trump Supporter Who Attacked Food Not Bomb Distributers Faces Murder Charges appeared first on KPFA.

Mike recalls memories from living in San Francisco in 1996. Topics discussed include: Ben Lovejoy, apt at 8th and Geary, worst roommate ever, coke fiend girlfriend, blood splattered walls, Damon Soule, Oak Street house, anarchist John, Food Not Bombs, feeding soup to the homeless, Burning Man, Masako, internal allergy, Maseo, pulling off a daytime non-permission spot, Jeff Rafnson, X-Files, Alysha, hospital stories, Barbie cool heads, Chris Woodcock, Scribble Jam, Dalek, Jaser (aka Rapes), Lead, Emit, Pose, East, El Paso, Aug, Fokis, dark freights, colorblind/night vision, oversized photocopies, paintings freight Big5 and Amaze, refrigerator cars, sideshows, Twist (aka Barry McGee), USF wall, C4, Cycle, photo trading with SMK, Gaze, Evade (aka Dave Schubert), Oakland Tracks, Dream, Vogue, Jase, using a messenger bag to hop a fence, inspirations from LSD, ACID piece, Susan Farrell (Art Crimes), Krash, windowpane, GIANT simple piece, stamp, Persué, Nyse, Zane, Heroin, Juxtapoz graffiti interview, Kelly Krantz, Adrenalin skateboards, vagina monster on Front Street and Adore (aka Reyes).

On Episode 119, Greg and Josh are joined by Andrew Stankevich. For around a decade, Andrew was heavily involved in activism in Rochester. Andrew helped create a Food Not Bombs chapter in Rochester and he was responsible for St Joe's House of Hospitality hosting monthly benefit shows. This also lead to our city having its own all ages show space, which mainly served as a home base for Food Not Bombs at the time. Currently, Andrew resided in the DC area and is practicing sky breathing meditation at The Art of Living in DC. On this episode we feature two track after the credits. The first is from Montreal, QC's Shut Away and the second is from Minneapolis, MN's Buio Omega. You can follow both bands on Instagram at @shutawaymtl and @buioomega69 https://youtu.be/F4S_4jX0ERA You can reach out to Andrew directly at Andrews@artofliving.org. Follow us on Instagram at @hardcorearchivepodcast @enterprisehardcore. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/enterprise-hardcore-podcast/support

Yvette's discussion with Activist Actress Alexandra Paul covers Alexandra's multifaceted career and social engagement. Though most known for starring on the TV series Baywatch for 5 seasons, Alexandra has often been arrested for peaceful civil disobedience around issues of human rights, peace, the environment and animals. She also cooked for and served the houseless of West LA every Monday night with Food Not Bombs: an all-volunteer movement that recovers food that would otherwise be discarded, and shares free vegan and vegetarian meals with the hungry in over 1,000 cities in 65 countries in protest to war, poverty, and destruction of the environment.

Episode Summary Margaret and Nadia talk about harm reduction, what it is, how it relates to community preparedness, strategies for including harm reduction in your preparedness routines, and a little bit of history and legality as relates to different kinds of drug use. Guest Info Nadia works with Next Distro and can be found at https://nextdistro.org/ Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript LLWD: Nadia on Harm Reduction Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret killjoy. And today, I am really excited about this episode, I think you'll all get a lot out of it. I guess I say that every time but I wouldn't record these episodes, if I didn't think you would get a lot out of them. Today, we are talking about harm reduction. And we were talking about preparedness that includes drug users. Because, if you think you don't know any drug users, you just don't know anyone who is willing to tell you that they're a drug user. And we will talk about that and a lot more. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Margaret 01:01 Okay, we're back. And if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then kind of a little bit about your background about the kind of stuff that we're gonna be talking about today. Nadia 01:52 Yeah, sure, hey, Margaret. My name is Nadia, I use they or she pronouns. And I am a harm reductionist, a drug user. And I have both worked at in-person syringe service programs, and currently work for an online meal based program, where we ship safer drinking supplies to folks all over the country. Margaret 02:16 That's cool. So we talked about having you on, because we wanted to talk about preparedness that includes the drug users in your community, whether the person listening to this as drug user, or whether they care about drug users in their community. And I know it's a big open question, but I kind of wanted to ask you that. How prepare that? Nadia 02:45 Well, you know, I think that when we talk about prepping, disaster prepping and harm reduction, they're really similar, because it's really boils down to a risk assessment and thinking critically, right? The world isn't black and white, it's not really an easy question to answer, for example, should I evacuate or not in a disaster? Similarly, how do I protect myself as a drug user, in a world that isn't concerned about my health or safety? And you know, for people who historically lack access to resources, and healthcare, I think talking about how to prepare or what readiness looks like, is especially important. Margaret 03:28 So, I guess I kind of want to start with some of the practical questions. It's like, what are the things that one should do that are different from what one would otherwise do? Like I'm like thinking about like, even for my own sake, right. Like, I'm like, like people say, like, carry Narcan, for example, like, how does one access that? What is the shelf life on that? Is that a thing that if community like mutual aid groups or individuals who have like large stashes of things or whatever? Is it like worth having a bunch of. Is it depend on community access? Is it better to just like, specifically coordinate with existing harm reduction and like needle exchange groups in your area? Like, it seems to me that like, like, one of the prepper mindset things is like, "Oh, there's a thing I need, I should go out and get a bunch of it". Right? And my instinct here is that maybe that rather than run out and get a bunch of say, Narcan, it would be more about like, be aware of how people can access that and which groups do distribute that and then maybe have like enough for me to carry around? I don't know. Yeah, like, I guess let's start with Narcan. What's What's the Narcan? Nadia 04:40 Sure. Um, so for folks that are listening that don't know, Narcan or naloxone is a medication that will reverse an opioid overdose. And you know, it, it should be kept in a relatively temperature stable area, but there's there's been a lot of studies on it. And they have shown that it maintains its efficacy, much past expiration dates and the kind of temperature parameters. So you don't want to keep it somewhere freezing or super hot, but it is more resilient than you think. And having some naloxone is better than having none. And you mentioned, you know, going out and sort of stocking up. And I think that this is a broader conversation about prepping too, the difference between being ready and hoarding, right, yeah, and sometimes that line definitely gets blurry. Do you really need 100 pounds of rice? Are you going to go through it before it gets bad? Do you have a proper place to store it? I mean, you can talk about naloxone in the same way. And you know, just like you can keep Narcan in your bag. If you're going to a show going to a bar, you can also keep some in your gobag, if you have one, to evacuate, for example. Margaret 06:06 What's the....you know, I usually present myself as sort of the the person who pretends like she doesn't know what she's asking in these episodes, but I actually don't know as much about this as I would like. Alot of my friends are way more knowledgeable about this stuff. Like what is the difference between Narcan and naloxone? And how would I go about getting some to carry around with me? Nadia 06:29 Sure. So Narcan is really just a brand name, that's the the nasal spray. Naloxone is the actual medication. You can pick it up from certain service programs in your area. If you don't have a needle exchange in your area, you can go just Google Next Distro. We mail Naloxone to folks, so just check the website, see if you live in a state or an area where we do that. But we do try to encourage people to sort of seek out resources where they live. But yeah, there's there's a lot of different organizations, everything from sort of anarchist collectives, running needle exchanges to health departments that are, you know, offering trainings and providing Narcan. Margaret 07:19 What's the legality of it? Nadia 07:21 So, as far as you know, carrying it with you, there is what is called a standing order. It's basically a sort of blanket prescription. You can go to the pharmacy, purchase Naloxone, it can be prohibitively expensive, especially if you don't have insurance, which is why I kind of mentioned, you know, needle exchanges and health departments first. But I think, you know, as far as having it on your person, it's not going to be a situation where it's illegal. However, we know that cops like to fuck with people. So if you do happen to have Naloxone, and you have syringes on you, I'm not going to say you'll be fine. However, the law is on your side in that regard. And another piece of that, too, is different states have different Good Samaritan laws. So if you are with someone that is experiencing an overdose, in many states, not all, you can call 911, without the fear or threat of potentially being arrested for small possession, or things like that. They are very narrow in a lot of places. But that's something that you're going to want to look into for your state. Margaret 08:37 So it's like, this makes sense, like so probably, if I have some drugs on me and my friend has some drugs on me and my friend overdoses. There's a fear of involving the medical establishment because there's a fear of me or the person who's overdosing getting arrested for what we have on them. Is that what you're saying that this law protects? Like, yeah, in some states protects people about? Nadia 09:00 So you know, there's, there's a lot of stigma, right? And you know, just the the illegality piece. And at the end of the day there, there is an overdose crisis in the United States, in many places. And so these laws are designed to sort of take some of that fear away. And if you are responding to someone who's experiencing an overdose, you don't have to tell 911 when you call that this person is on drugs or that they are overdosing. You can just merely describe the symptoms and what is happening to them. For example, this person is not breathing, they're turning blue. I can't hear a heartbeat, whatever it might be. And you know, if you do have to leave and you have given them Naloxone, you can just leave the vials or or the package next to the person that way when EMS does arrive, they do know "Okay, this person has been given Narcan, "and they can kind of go from there, Margaret 09:59 Right. Okay, so like if you have reasons that you don't want to interact with emergency personnel and need to leave the scene, okay. Nadia 10:07 Yeah, and you have options. And that's kind of the whole thing about harm reduction, right? It's a pragmatic approach to drug use and a realistic one. And so, you know, that's why there, there are no hard and fast rules of do this, or don't do this, but, you know, sort of a continuum of human behavior. And, you know, acknowledging the risks at any point of it. Margaret 10:30 I want to come back to that in a little bit, because I want to have this whole conversation about what harm reduction...like why the work that y'all do is so like, philosophically important, to like disaster preparedness, and probably life in general. But first, I want to, I want to keep talking about some of this stuff, like with, like, you're talking about the, you know, there's an overdose crisis in the United States, I feel like everyone, on some level knows that. And one of the things that's so interesting to me, I would think I was thinking about before we did this episode is that it's like, you know, this is all about like, disaster preparedness, right? The whole show. And it feels like a lot of communities and certainly including drug communities. I don't know the way phrase that..... Nadia 11:18 You can say, "people who use drugs." Margaret 11:20 Okay. But so there is a disaster happening right now. Like, there is a crisis. Like there's a reason we call it crisis, you know, it's like a really fucking bad thing. And I'm wondering if, without necessarily going into it, like, too great, but I'm curious, like, what is happening? Like, what is what's happening right now? Why is everyone OD'ing? , Nadia 11:44 Well, you know, there's a lot of different facets to the overdose crisis and a lot of different solutions. Some of them sort of more triage, you know, we were just talking about Naloxone, and, and it's a great medication, it saves lives. But ultimately, what we really need is a safe supply of drugs. If people are aware and knowledgeable of what they're taking, how potent it is, if there are any adulterants in it, you know, that's where we would like to go. Obviously, drugs are illegal. Most drugs are illegal in most places in the United States. And, you know, there there has been pushes for access to safe supply in places like Canada in, you know, I believe Oregon has, has I think, legalized some drugs, right? You can purchase I think mushrooms now. Don't quote me on that. I'm not actually familiar with Oregon law. Margaret 12:46 Anyone listening this, you can go out and buy mushrooms legally. And if the police stop you, you can say "it''s okay. It's not a crime." Don't do that. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. Nadia 12:57 I mean, you know, philosophically, it's not a crime. It's not a crime to do drugs. And, you know, the, the idea that some of these drugs are illegal, and some of them aren't, really, is sort of goes back to like this puritanical history of our country. You know, why is alcohol legal when we know that drunk driving rates are through the roof, and you know, it can cause incredible damage to your body over time. But then, you know, smoking marijuana is, is still illegal in a lot of places. where I live, for sure, especially in the south. So, you know, I think that there's there's that moral component Margaret 13:38 So we should bring back prohibition? Nadia 13:40 Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, as far as having access to drugs that are safe, drugs, that that you know, what you're getting, you know, I think that we don't want to short....when I say 'we,' I mean people who use drugs, I mean, people in the harm reduction community. We don't want to shortchange ourselves. I don't want to say, "Oh, well, the overdose crisis would be so much better if everyone had not Narcan." Yes, that's true. But that's a temporary fix, Margaret 14:11 Right. It's...no, that's such a good point. Because I feel like that's like the...I know I owe came out the gate with like that as the first thing that was on my mind. And I, and I'm, like, kind of embarrassed about that because it's such the like, it's the band aid we always keep getting presented. And it's like a real good band aid. It's more like the tourniquet we keep getting presented. But, it does seem like yeah, what you're talking about decriminalization, it's almost like when you make things illegal, it doesn't make the problem go away. Nadia 14:40 Yeah, and you know, I think about it in terms of living under capitalism for so long our entire lives, right. And you get to a point where it's hard to think about solutions outside of the current system. We're so focused on kind of again, that that triage, right, how do we make things better within this oppressive state that we live in? But really, ultimately, the goal should be moving past that and moving beyond it, right? Margaret 15:11 Yeah. Yeah. So to go back with preparedness, I know that you do a little bit of preparedness yourself. We talked before we started recording about, you know, canned vegetables and things like that. How does it impact your preparedness, both that you are a drug user, and also that you, like, care about and take drug users into consideration in your preparedness? Nadia 15:40 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is planning, right? I'm gonna use the example of of evacuating, I lived in the Gulf South for a very long time. Hurricanes were a yearly occurrence. And so I had to think about it a lot. But, you know, just in terms of what your risk is, and making a decision based on that, for example, if you are evacuating, do you bring drugs with you and sort of chance getting pulled over? Or do you try and score in a new place? And you have to decide what the bigger risk is for you. For example, if I'm driving with five of my friends in an unregistered van with acab stickers all over it, I might not want to be riding dirty, I might not want to have drugs on me. Versus, you know, if I am going somewhere completely unfamiliar to me, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to score when I get there. It might be worth the risk, right? And so thinking of those things in advance is really important. And the longer you wait in an emergency situation, the longer it's going to take you to get out of that cone of impact, right? If you wait to the last minute, there's going to be you know, traffic on the road, it's harder to to get out, it's harder to find a hotel room, for example. So really, that thinking of it in advance, you know, I think can save you a lot of critical time when you need to act. Margaret 17:10 Yeah. Yeah, like, I don't envy a lot of my friends who live in the Gulf South, are like, "What do I need?" And I'm like, I don't know, a house in the mountains somewhere. And then I'm like, No, that doesn't. That doesn't help. You know, I can't just tell people that. Nadia 17:26 Well, and I mean, you know, we're talking about preparedness, we're talking about disaster prep. And, you know, a lot of places that haven't had to deal with disasters, like hurricanes or flooding, or wildfires are seeing more and more of that now. And there's a greater impact on bipoc, queer and trans folks, disabled people, you know, marginalized groups whose access to resources is already more limited. And, you know, I think we really need to look towards communities that have been repeatedly harmed, especially by structural and environmental racism, I think they're best informed as to how to survive and how to support each other. And I don't want to say just in the Gulf south, but I'm talking about Flint, Michigan, I'm talking about, you know, Jackson, Mississippi, there's a lot of places where, you know, people are painfully aware that no one is coming to save you. It could be weeks or months for FEMA to arrive. In many places, local governments rely on mutual aid networks and charity groups to provide support. And so that kind of vacuum speaks to the importance of building dual power. Because it leaves the field open, I think for kind of any group that wants to become entrenched or inevitability, to sort of step up, right, whether that's a homophobic church group, right wing militias, especially in rural or remote areas, because, people remember who took care of them. You know, that's one of the reasons why the Black Panthers were such a threat with free breakfast programs and community care, is why Food Not Bombs is illegal in some places. There's just there's a lot of power in community sufficiency. Margaret 19:23 Yeah. I mean, and so you, you mentioned that there's like lessons that you draw from these specific places, especially bipoc. communities that are under like constant threat. What are some of the lessons that you feel like you draw from that? I mean, besides the one that you just pointed out, maybe that's the answer to the question, what you point out that like, building mutual aid networks and stuff like that, but.... Nadia 19:45 Yeah, absolutely, figuring out who is in your support network. Also in a disaster or crisis situation, how will you communicate with that network is really important. You know, do folks know where you're staying and vice versa? Yeah. Also, you know, we're talking right now and 2022, almost 2023, the COVID pandemic isn't over. So figuring out how you can shelter places safely, you know, do you have masks on hand? That sort of thing. And then going back to prepping for people who use drugs, stocking up on drugs, you know, you might be thinking, "Oh, well, after the fact, I can just XYZ," whatever your plan is, but what if your dealer evacuated? You know? And, you know, the, as far as staying with other people, how do they feel about drug use? Does everyone know where the naloxone is and how to use it, you know, disasters are stressful, you might be dealing with extreme temperatures, hunkering down with people and their different temperaments, and, you know, for most of us to, stress impacts drug use, and it's important to keep that in mind. If you're, you know, for example, trying to cut back or regulate your use. I think all of these things, you know, are useful for people who use drugs, but ultimately, I think they're all skills or at least, you know, aspects of preparing that are beneficial for anyone. Margaret 21:14 Yeah. Well, so interesting, because it you know, normally we think of like, okay, if you can get more of a medication that you need ahead of time, right? That's great. And, you know, there's this limitation, it's actually very similar limitation, the limitation is legality. In this case of like, you know, it's, it's sometimes very hard for people who even have a prescription to get more than, you know, a month's worth of supply or whatever, at a time of any given prescription. And it's, it's something that people run up against a lot. And then obviously, with, I don't know, whether the way to phrase it as street drugs or not, or like drugs that are not being bought through the pharmaceutical networks or whatever, you know, there's an accessibility that is hit and miss. And then there's also an increased danger of stockpiling, because it seems like the the level of risk that you're carrying for getting busted changes a lot based on how much of any given drug you have on you. Nadia 22:11 Yeah, definitely. And I do want to kind of speak to one of the pieces you talked about, as far as having medications, you know, if you're on prescription medications, you know, you can check in with your provider, see, if you can get a larger refill than normal say, you know, instead of 30 days, can you get a 60 day supply, especially for people who use drugs, who might be on, you know, medication assisted treatment, they might be taking methadone, naltrexone, and, you know, these are highly effective in terms of either regulating your use, or perhaps, you know, not using it all. But they can be difficult to access. And in some places, it's harder to pick up the prescription for Vivitrol or suboxone because of stigma, because pharmacists, you know, have this idea of, of drug users, or they just might not know the the regulations and laws in their area. And you might not know them either, because you're new. So, I think that checking in, like I said, with providers ahead of time, if that's possible, and you know, doing what you can in terms of stocking up, but this, that whole plan needs the assistance of people in the medical field. And even they have, you know, that kind of stigma, unfortunately, Margaret 23:33 Yeah, yeah. To self insert this, I got refused a COVID shot because I was wearing a harm reduction shirt once. Nadia 23:41 Wait, why what was the excuse that they gave you? Margaret 23:45 I went in, I was like this dirty punk wearing a Steady Collective shirt, which is the harm reduction group in Asheville, North Carolina. And I, it's funny, I feel like it's like Stolen Valor that I wear this shirt. Because people like when I wore in Asheville people were like, I love what you do. And "I'm like, thanks. What I do is I designed the logo." And the reason I wear the shirt is because I designed the logo for it. So I'm very proud of...and it's just crossed hypodermic needles. And Nadia 24:13 It's a cool logo. Margaret 24:14 Thanks. Thanks. And I was in like, rural fucking right wing California. And I wanted a COVID booster. And so I went into the pharmacy. I found out ahead of time that this particular pharmacy did walk ins. And I walked in, and the the pharmacist at the counter was talking to a doctor who was in line in front of me. And they were both just complaining about drug users. And they were just both sitting there being like, "Oh, these damned, you know, junkies," or whatever. I don't remember how they phrased it, but it wasn't polite. And then like the person finally leaves and I walk up and I'm like, Yall take walk ins? and she's like, "No." And I'm like, "Can I make an appointment? And she's like, "Not for today." Nadia 24:59 That is wild. I mean, also you have a lot of people in the medical community that don't really believe that COVID is a thing or that vaccines are effective. I mean, you can have an anti Vaxxer pharmacist, which is, yeah, I mean, Margaret 25:16 And, like, this is such a, like, I face stigma once....I so it's like, it's really easy for me to imagine after that, that like, of course, people face stigma coming in and picking up their fucking medications, if they're like, the kinds of medications that are, like methadone and stuff like that. That's fucked up. I don't know, that sucks. Nadia 25:40 Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're talking about COVID. And I think harm reduction is a huge piece of you know, how we can kind of move through the world right now. People are continuing to die and be disabled by COVID. And, you know, we were talking a little bit before, before we started about, you know, kind of the beginning of COVID. And I was really optimistic at first kind of seeing mutual aid networks spring up and more people coming to the realization that the government will kill us for the sake of the economy. But you know, now I think even in radical spaces, that sort of care and community level protection has given way to the more mainstream sentiment or desire to return to normalcy. And that's just something that isn't possible. And it's not desirable to many, many people for whom normalcy was oppressive and a danger. Yeah, you know, I think that, especially as anarchists or folks that consider themselves radical, preppers, as well, we know that we keep us safe, right? That's kind of the tagline. But, that should also apply to immunocompromised people as well, and disabled folks. And, you know, now, I think it's a really great time to take stock of your existing protocols, and safety measures and sort of ask if those things that you're doing or not doing are still in line with what our current risk is. And right now, going into winter, you know, nationally, over 10% of tests are coming back positive. And we know that we're severely under testing, and we know that COVID reinfections, wear down your immunity. That increases your risk for long COVID or kind of lingering COVID symptoms, and, you know, makes people more susceptible to things like the flu, RSV, or Strep A, all three of which we're seeing a surge of in this winter. Margaret 27:43 Yay. Yeah. I think about it, like the fact that...I don't know how to put this. Like, I wear a mask for the same reason I carry a gun. And it...and not that I want everyone to carry guns, that is a very personal decision based on the legality and the threat models that you're facing. Bu,t I carry a gun, so that it is harder for someone to murder me and it is harder for someone to murder the people I care about who are near me, right? I wear a mask, so that I am less likely to die, and other people around me are less likely to die. This seems like such a, like the idea that there's people who are like preppers or prepper adjacent, who are anti mask, and then anti vaccine is just so nonsensical to me. And I mean, I do think that like protocols do like, they do need to shift, we do need to realize it as we realize that this is endemic, and you know, we can't...like we probably can't just say no more live music in the course of human history. Right? Nadia 28:58 I would hope not. Margaret 29:00 But I especially like, when I walk into the grocery store, there is literally no cost to me to wear a mask. There is just, there's only positive effects of me wearing a mask minus social stigma. Nadia 29:17 You know, I think that we need, if we're going to survive, care, kindness, and a lot of grace. Which requires us to acknowledge that there's a huge cognitive dissonance people are dealing with right now. We're three years into a global pandemic that's killed six and a half million people around the world, the rise of fascism, I mean, there's a lot and people's responses are going to vary wildly. Kind of the metaphor I like to use is, it sort of feels like a house fire. And we've all just gone through this traumatic experience, and we've run out of the house in the middle of the night, and everyone is sort of behaving in a trauma informed way, some people are trying to run back into the house, some people are claiming that there was never a fire. And, you know, it's, it's trying to take care of each other, and hold ourselves accountable to being, you know, I think responsible for our communities, but while also acknowledging, you know, this is a weird fucking time. You know, I think too, this kind of goes back a little bit to our Naloxone conversation. You know, when we talk about masks, when we talk about boosters, these are sort of individual steps we can take, right? But ultimately, that's, that's only a piece of it, right? We need a societal shift. We need proper air filtration in schools, we need access to rapid testing, we need the working class to have the money and ability to take time off of work when they're sick. I mean, all of these things are sort of interconnected to this larger struggle. And one way that capitalism and our sort of overlords here and Imperial core, are able to shift blame is by you know, kind of making everything this individual choice and individual responsibility when it's not at all. Margaret 31:33 No, that's such a good point. And there's it, it shows that there's even like, some of those things are small scale community, things can be done as well, like, it would be a shame for a small scale community to have to suddenly like come up with the resources to provide rapid testing to everyone constantly or whatever, right. But like, I don't know, like, helping your local venues get real good air filtration systems, you know, or like, expanding outside infrastructure in climates that allow it, and like, there are the steps that we can take that are sort of medium. They're not....And I think that's actually where anarchists and radicals actually do best is not at the individual level. And frankly, if I if I'm being honest, not necessarily at the systemic level, but like this sort of in between level, this community based this community size level of like, how do we? Yeah, I mean, we can't....the punks or the anarchists, or whatever is can't pass a mask mandate, but like, we can create, like, cultures where, when there's no reason not to, we wear masks, and we work on our air filtration. And this is really just me thinking about COVID instead of the whole point of this conversation was drug use stuff, but... Nadia 32:54 Well I mean, they're, I think they're interrelated. You know, if you are putting on a punk show, is it accessible, right? Does that mean, you know, for folks in wheelchairs, folks with, you know, mobility aids, as well as immunocompromised people, and ensuring that you know, this is a place that they have access to? Or if it's not, saying that. I at least want you to say, "Hey, this is a dangerous place for you. And, making it accessible is not our priority or isn't possible in this situation. Therefore, you can make your own decision about whether or not you want to attend." Margaret 33:36 I've been in like, an now I can't remember if it was France or Montreal, somewhere where people spoke French. I've been in places where like any anarchist event will put on the fliers the accessibility or lack of accessibility for wheelchair access. And that's such an interesting, good point, right? Because if you have to flag on it, "This is not wheelchair accessible." It means you have to think about it when you do it, right. And like, Which isn't to say you shouldn't...I don't know one way or the other about what I'm about to say, which doesn't mean like you can't put on an event if you can't find it, accessible space, but you should have to own it, and you should have to be working on making the space more accessible. Is that, uh??? I'm really talking about my ass here. I haven't I haven't been part of these conversations. But. Nadia 34:21 I mean, as someone who is struggling with long COVID still a year in, you know, I am also new to the disability conversation. And I definitely feel grateful for the folks who have been activists and have been organizing around these issues for you know, forever, honestly. And it really was shocking to me, even though I'm fairly realistic about how our society treats folks they deem unworthy or undesirable, but it was really shocking the level to which you become invisible. All. And you know, I think, to sort of shoehorn a little segue back to our orginal conversation, people who use drugs also live in that sort of liminal space, right? There's so much that is invisible about drug use. But also, this kind of caricature of drug users is sort of trotted out anytime people want to talk about society's ills, right? When people are talking about folks without homes, inevitably drug use comes up as if people aren't sitting in their houses doing drugs. They just have walls and you can't see them. Margaret 35:38 Yeah, well, and then one of the things that I really appreciate about this conversation with you is that you're talking about the implication, or the the inference that I'm picking up on, is that basically saying, It's okay, if people use drugs, that is their choice, it seems to be like, like a lot of the conversation that I've feel like I'm exposed to is this, like, we should have pity for these poor drug users, and everyone is trying to stop using drugs. Whereas, it seems like you're trying to present an alternate case where people can choose whether or not they want to engage with drugs in different ways? Nadia 36:17 Yeah, I mean, you know, harm reduction is the sort of set of principles or tenants that allows for autonomy and allows for people to make informed decisions about what they do. You know, abstinence doesn't necessarily work or isn't feasible for everyone. And so, you know, giving people the space and acknowledging that there's always going to be some risk in the things that we do, you know, helps us kind of approach it with clear eyes. But the I think the moral question around using drugs really does us a disservice. Doing drugs is fun, and cool. And that is, I think, an important message to have out there because, you know, so often, we're just inundated with all of the terrible things that can happen to you. And again, this is normal human behavior. This is normal behavior in other other species, you've got monkeys eating, you know, fruit that's gone, gone bad and getting drunk, you've got bears eating psychedelic honey. We do this because it's enjoyable. And to deny it that, I think, sort of leaves us on our back foot in terms of "Okay, well, how do we do this safely?" Margaret 37:41 Yeah, presenting as this is a bad thing that someone shouldn't have done and now we have to deal with the bad parts, as compared to being like, every animal on the planet wants to do this, we should figure out ways that people can have freedom to do it as safely as they want or to not do it, if they don't want. Nadia 38:07 Right, and you know, both are fine. It's also cool to not do drugs. I do want to put that out there. But as a drug user, you know, this touches on our conversation about safe supply, right? When you're buying and you don't know the quality or if there's cross contamination, obviously, a lot of folks are very concerned about things like fentanyl right now. There's also you know, other sort of fillers or things people can use. Xylazine is something that is sort of making the rounds right now that can have potential, like negative health impacts. So yeah, I think this, this goes back to sort of those bigger picture solutions as opposed to the band aids. Margaret 38:55 Okay. And then, how useful is it? You know, like, as you pointed out earlier, right....Again, before, we had a long pre conversation. We knew each other back in the day for, now, people can know that about us, I guess. You know, pointing out because like, I mostly don't do drugs, but I do drink sometimes, right, and that is a drug and alcohol is absolutely a drug. It's a very dangerous drug. And it's one that I engage with very rarely, but I do engage with, and it does seem like a fairly useful comparison for talking about other drugs. Like cause there's this drug that is socially acceptable while also being massively destructive, right? And it seems like that actually maps fairly well to most of the other drugs that are like, problems for people. I don't know is that too simplistic? Nadia 39:51 No, I don't think so. You know, and that's also not to say that people don't struggle with their drug use that people you You know, might be really unhappy with their relationship to drugs. And, you know, the more openly we can talk about it and the more access to different options people have, that sort of allows them to, you know, find the most comfortable place for them. Right, there is this, you know, kind of individual piece to it, even though we're talking a lot about sort of community care, Margaret 40:24 Right. No, that's what I mean, that, in some ways, is part of why alcohol feels like such a good comparison. It's not even a comparison, it's literally a drug. It's a drug that is somehow held into a different class than the others, is that I think we all know people who....for whom alcohol is a problem. And we all know people for whom alcohol is not a problem. And then we all know, people who completely abstain from alcohol, who are in one of those two camps, if they weren't abstaining, you know? Hmm. I don't know, I'm having this like, epiphany, that should have been obvious a long time ago, I think about this. Nadia 41:02 Well, and, you know, thinking in terms of alcohol, and using that as an example of how constrained we are in terms of our choices, you know, if if you are someone that struggles with drinking, really the the options that are given to you are abstinence, right? 12 steps, complete sobriety, and the message that that is the only way that you will be able to, you know, become a functioning member of society. And the fact is that that's simply not true.You know, abstinence really doesn't work for many, many people. You know, I think most of us can remember the "Just Say No," campaigns of the 90s, or maybe the 80s, depending on how old you are. And we know those didn't work. It don't work for children, it doesn't work for adults. And, you know, I think I don't want to get too far down the rabbit hole. But I think it would be important for folks to sort of think about, "Well, why is alcohol illegal? And all these other drugs aren't?"And I think it all goes back to capitalism. It goes back to money. It goes back to social control. Margaret 42:22 Yeah. Well, ironically, one of the reasons that alcohol is legal, is that a bunch of people fought the KKK to the death to make alcohol legal. I only learned as kind of more recently when I did a bunch of....one of my other podcasts is a history podcast. And I didn't realize that the second incarnation of the KKK was like, one of their main things is that they were the foot soldiers of prohibition. They were like the Proud Boys of the prohibition era. And it was this whole thing where it was like Protestants versus everyone else, including reasonable Protestants. It was white Protestants against Irish Catholics, Italians, all of the people who were, you know, bootlegging, and all of that other stuff. And there were these like massive violent street fights. And I mean, mostly, it was massive violence, street fights about fuck you, you're the KKK, we want to...you can't run our town. But, what they wanted to do was run the town on a prohibition model. And there's this like, really interesting tie between white supremacy and prohibition. And it? I don't know, I mean, like, I know, I know how to immediately draw the same thing between the outline of weed and anti blackness. And I'm suspecting that if I dug very hard, I would find similar things with like, drugs, period. I don't know. I just got really excited about people beating up the KKK and that's why we're allowed to drink. Nadia 43:59 Yeah, that's always a win, both of those things. Margaret 44:06 But, what anyway, sorry, I got lost in rabbit hole thinking about that. Okay, so you've brought up this topic a couple times: harm reduction. And I suspect most people have at least an idea of what harm reduction is, but I'm wondering if you could kind of introduce it because, one, it feels very relevant to this specific conversation. But it also feels very relevant to conversations around disaster preparedness in general, because it seems to be implying that there is no perfect and that in some ways perfect is the enemy of good. And that we should just like, figure out what can go wrong and do the best we can rather than expect to succeed in everything. Maybe that's a misunderstanding. Nadia 44:51 That's, that is I think, a really core piece of it, you know, and I don't want to belie the the history behind harm reduction too, you know, this was a movement that was created in platformed by people who use drugs, by sex workers, especially during the HIV AIDS crisis. And again, you know, from groups of marginalized people that realize that they are the only ones looking out for each other. And you know, that many behaviors carry some form of risk. And so talking about that honestly, and figuring out how to mitigate that risk is far more helpful than shaming people and that is connected, you know, directly to the criminalization of HIV and AIDS too, you know, there's the sort of moralizing, right, when folks become sick. There's this idea, I think, that is rooted in very, like old school, Brimstone Christianity, that, you know, it's some form of punishment. And I think that the way our society looks at people who use drugs, and the potential risks are viewed as appropriate punishment for the behavior, which is wrong and fucked up. Margaret 46:06 Yeah. Okay, so. So what is harm reduction? Nadia 46:12 So, you know, I think that if we're specifically talking about drug use, that can be, you know, practical tips, anything from making sure that you're using sterile supplies, making sure that you have syringes, and you don't have to share them, to prevent the transmission of diseases, you know, that can be, you know, figuring out different routes of administration. So for example, if you're someone that likes to snort a lot of drugs, maybe you want to give your nostrils a break, and, you know, smoke or boof. There are a lot of things that you can kind of adjust, right? You don't even have to necessarily be adhering to this strict set of rules as far as your drug use, but really being sort of flexible based on your own needs. Margaret 47:09 Okay. And then, what are some of the ways that harm reduction either applies to other things besides drug use, or like has been successfully applied, or like some of the ways that like harm reduction, as jargon, has been, like, kind of co-opted by other things? Nadia 47:32 Yeah, I mean, I feel like especially after 2016, the the idea that voting is harm reduction really picked up speed. And I personally disagree. Margaret 47:47 Okay. Nadia 47:48 For the most part, because harm reduction is something that you know, you can use for yourself, for your drug use, and so when we say voting is harm reduction, my question is, "Whose harm is being lessened?" You know, we currently have a Democratic president, and there's still concentration camps on our southern border, you still have Democratic mayors and city council's introducing regressive anti homelessness laws, throwing more money at more cops. And so I just think the notion that we can affect the kind of change necessary to liberate us by voting is....it's short sighted. And I think it can be an excuse for people to not have to invest so much in their allyship. Yeah, I think at its very base, most like literal definition, voting potentially reduces harm, but most of that is going to be in the immediate or short term. Margaret 48:50 Well, so that's really interesting to me, right? Because I think that I had a kind of misunderstanding of harm reduction in some ways, because from my point of view, I mean...voting as harm reduction just seemed to be the rephrasing of vote for the lesser evil. Because in my mind, voting for the lesser evil is acknowledging an evil, right, it is acknowledging like Like, like, Biden is an evil, the Democratic Party is an evil, that does evil things in the world. And so for me, there's a there's a sensibility to the argument of thinking that voting is how we make systemic change is terrible. And I actually thought that the kind of concept of, but they always lose their meaning, right, in the 80s. and 90s It was vote for the lesser evil and people were like, yeah, that's how we make things better. It's like, no, it's clearly not how to make things better. It's how you make things evil. You're just controlling the amount of evil. And then with harm reduction argument, the reason I bought it at first was because it was like, "Oh, yes, because it's, it's saying there is going to be harm, but we want to do less of it." But, with what you're talking about, about how drug use or sex as two of the spaces that we talk about harm reduction a lot, right? Like those things can rule, right? Like sex and drugs, there's a reason that people talk about them positively. They're very dangerous activities sometimes, right. And people should go into them as clear headed as...well, maybe not clear headed depending on their preferences, but you know, people should should be aware of the risks, but then go and have all the sex and drugs and rock and roll or whatever that they want, as compared to... and so this is where the metaphor to the political system seems to fall apart to me is because like, well, the existing political system that we have is just doing bad. And it's really about what tiny little bits of mitigation or picking, something's going to kill. It's the trolley problem, right? You're still killing people. And that's not fun and cool. That's not sex, drugs and rock and roll. I don't know. That's what I got. Nadia 51:01 Yeah. And, you know, I think that you really laid it out very well there. You know, yes, I can reduce the harm to myself if I am using drugs or having sex, but I can't get these politicians that I voted in to reduce the harm that they are causing. Because, you know, if you're voting for one of the two dominant political parties in the United States, I think you're just asking yourself, if you want to get to fascism, the short way or the long way, because I think, you know, voting in Democrats does make a material difference when it comes to some social services, and some environmental protections. But ultimately, both of these parties work at the behest of the ruling class. And capitalism requires ceaseless consumption and growth. And neither of those are sustainable. And they require the subjugation of working class people. So I think, you know, if, you know, it's, it's a question of capacity, if you and the people in your community that you organize with have the time and resources to engage in electoral politics, while simultaneously building dual power, and fighting encroaching fascism, like, go with God. There's space for a lot of tactics, and you gotta find where your skill set is and where your comfort lies. And I do just want to say this one last piece, too, when we talk about voting as harm reduction in the United States, that often I think tends to overlook the international implications of maintaining the current political system here, Margaret 52:36 Right, which is, that's where it becomes even more of the same as like, yeah, it's never...the solutions don't lie in the ballot box, and like, Oh, whatever. I'm just like, speaking cliches or whatever. But it's like, even if we can make things like slightly better, like, because like, literally, if someone was like, "Well, do you want fascism tomorrow? Do you want fascism in five years," I'd be like, "Five years, please, that gives me a little bit more time to try to fight it." But of course, the problem, obviously, we're way off topic, but the problem is, of course, then people think that like, oh, that's the solution. The solution is engaging with this political system that has no fucking reason for existing besides driving us closer to Ecocide and fascism. Nadia 53:21 Right. That's, that's the band aid. That's the triage. You know, there are so many different things that I think harm reduction principles can be applied to whether that's sex work, you know, mental health issues, eating disorders, tobacco use, I think there's a really natural evolution of the harm reduction philosophy to extend it to other health risk behaviors and to a broader audience in that way. I just, I think that, again, using harm reduction to sort of Pantious Pilate wash your hands of a lot of things and just say,"I voted and that's enough," is it's not going to work. It's not. Margaret 54:00 Okay. No, and now I'm thinking, I'm like, Oh, shit, is my like, I just carry around naloxone. Is that my, like, wash my hands of addressing the larger systemic things and like, well, it doesn't affect me, it clearly affects me because it affects people I care about and it like, I don't know, is the takeaways. Okay, wait, I'm gonna try and some of the takeaways I've gotten from you, is that carry Naloxone, but it's a band aid. And it is a useful one, but the larger systemic problems have to do with criminalization and they have to do with access to safe supply. And so working on the kind of pressure involved to fight for that is good having mutual aid networks....Oh, okay. One of the questions that kind of had actually is, in your experience existing mutual aid networks, how well do they get along with existing harm reduction networks? Does it tend to be the same players and everyone's excited, or do you run across some mutual aid networks do they kind of like to step up their game about actually care about, you know, drug users? Or like, How's that look right now, Nadia 55:09 In my personal experience, and I can't really speak to, you know, places I haven't lived or, you know, different communities that I'm not a part of. But there is a great deal of overlap. You know, a lot of folks that are working in harm reduction, people who use drugs and sex workers are sort of use to you know, fending for ourselves, we're used to creating these these networks of care that exist outside of the current system. And, you know, that's not to say that, when disaster strikes, it can sort of hit some folks harder than others. If the needle exchange in your town closes down, because there was a disaster. You know, there, there might be some time before they opened back up. And that's not going to stop people from using drugs. It will just create a situation where people have to use drugs more dangerously. And so, you know, yes, I think that there's a lot of overlap. But also, it shouldn't be this sort of jerry rigged, you know, last line of defense, the folks that have just experienced a disaster now having to turn around and all care for each other. Because again, no one is coming to save you. Margaret 56:28 Yeah. Yay. That's Nadia 56:32 that's the real point of it. Yes. Margaret 56:35 But I mean it's really liberating. I think that like, I'm not super into political nihilism, personally, a lot of my friends are and I don't mean to slight it. But, the thing that reminds me of what like my like nihilist friends get out of like hopelessness, not hopeless, whatever, out of nihilism is comparable to the like, I find something joyous and liberating about the realization that no one's coming to save us. Because it's this like concept, one of my favorite cliches from like, when I was a baby anarchist was just like, "We are the ones we've been waiting for." Because it's less about, no one is coming to save us, we're doomed. And it's more about like, it is up to us to build the power and capacity necessary to bring about the changes that we need to see in this world. And there's a lot of us, and there's a lot more of us all the time, and the problems we're facing, seem to be getting bigger and bigger, depending on the position you're coming from, right, the problems facing me have gotten bigger and bigger as all the anti trans stuff comes through, or whatever, you know, but there's also more of us. Even to just continue the trans thing as a metaphor. It's like, the reason there's all this anti trans shit is that we all came out of the fucking closet. Like, there's a ton of us. And like, there always were a ton of us, but we were all fucking scared. And like, and what they want to do is make us afraid and get back in the closet. And so I get a lot out of, 'no one is coming to save us.' Because of the flip side being. We're going to save us. Nadia 58:16 Yeah, I mean, I think it's really liberatory. That's something that I love about anarchism, too, you know, yes, that means that, you know, the system isn't here for us, because it's never been here for us. But ultimately, we have to take responsibility for our lives, for our communities, and for the future that we want, as opposed to sort of being handed these these goals and expectations, the rules that were supposed to have, the lives were supposed to lead. And you know, it can be scary to not have that safety net, but I think through, you know, both political discourse, but also just, you know, having lived a life, you quickly become aware that that safety net never actually existed in the first place. Margaret 59:05 Yeah. Well, are there any last words on preparedness that you want to, you want to shout out? Everyone should fill their basement with needles? I don't know. Nadia 59:22 Well, I mean, don't do that. Or if you do that, make sure that they are, you know, safely kept somwhere that only you have access to, or the folks that need them. You know, I know I've kind of hammered this home a lot. But, it really, when I say 'it,' I mean harm reduction. And I think what we're trying to do for ourselves really comes down to community and it comes down to having these bigger goals and not taking, 'no,' for an answer or taking, you know, half measures for an answer. The overdose crisis is very real. And there are pharmaceutical companies and families that have directly caused a lot of pain and death, and they should be held accountable. And that is slowly happening over time. But, I just want to keep clear, you know, who are the folks in our community who are doing the work? And who are maybe the people that are sort of preventing us from living our best lives? Margaret 1:00:34 Yeah. All right. Well, is there anything you want to shout out here at the end of like, what people...I don't know it was anything you want to draw attention to any projects? Any of your work? 1:00:47 You know, support your local needle exchange, support your local sex workers. You know, if there is a call to fight back against fascists, or show up at your local library, because people are doing some fuck shit against trans people, you should be there. That's my shout out. Yeah. Margaret 1:01:05 That's a good shout out. Well, thanks for being on...it's funny as like, every now and then I do these episodes where I'm like, it like challenges my own like weird....I don't want to say puritanical upbringing, I didn't have a puritanical upbringing. I was around a lot of people, you know, all my friends did a lot of drugs when I was in....whatever. And it's just like, interesting to every now and I'd have these episodes like, it's like the first couple times I did firearms episodes. I was like, It's not that I was like, Oh, I'm being so edgy. It was just being like, Oh, right. Information is dangerous because I and then I'm like, that's true about everything. I don't know where I'm going with this. Basically, thanks for coming on to talk about something that I feel like doesn't get talked about because people are afraid to acknowledge it, because we all walk around with this, like, 'drugs are bad,' and then we just secretly all do drugs. And so it's just better to just actually be like, drugs are complicated. Nadia 1:02:03 Yeah, and people are complicated. Margaret 1:02:05 What? Not me. I'm a paladin. I adhere to my moral code. That doesn't sound great. Okay. Yep. All right. Well, thank you for coming on this episode. Nadia 1:02:15 Thanks for having me. Margaret 1:02:17 All right. Bye. Margaret 1:02:25 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please tell people about it by whatever means that you prefer to tell people about things, like skywriting, please sky write Live Like the World is Dying above a beach. Ooh, get one of those banners that goes behind the like little plane that flies by the beach and usually advertises auto insurance. And instead it should just say, "Live Like the World is Dying." Don't tell people it's a podcast. Just tell people to live like the world is dying and become a cool, no future punk or a only a future if we imagine it....Okay, I'm off track. So, yeah, you can tell people about it. You can also support us. This podcast is published by pa...not by Patreon, it's supported by Patreon. It's published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is a publishing collective that I'm part of along with a bunch of other people. We put out books we recently put out Cindy, Barukh's Milstein's "Try Anarchism for Life" and soon possibly, actually, I don't know when this episode is gonna be released. February 1st, 2023, we are releasing my book, "Escape from Incel Island." If you're listening to this before February 1st, 2023, you can pre order it at tangledwilderness.org. If you're listening to it after February 1st, 2023, you can buy it wherever books are sold, or go to the library, or steal a copy from Barnes and Noble. I don't care. And but, don't steal it from an info shop. That's just, it's just mean. Why would you do that? Get a library to carry it and then get it, or steal it from a big corporate place. Whatever. You can support us on patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness and your donations, go to pay the transcriptionist and pay the audio editor to keep all of this stuff happening. And in particular, I want to thank Aly, and Paparouna, and Milica, and Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, Shawn, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana Chelsea, Kat J, Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Michaiah, Chris, and Hoss the dog. I really appreciate all of you and I really appreciate that there's enough of you that I read your names fast and maybe that's like really rude. But, I just like I don't know, I'm kind of like humbled by the support that Strangers gets and I hope that you who are listening well I only hope you support us if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, just continue to get our shit for free. And that's the whole point of supporting, is it helps other people get our shit for free. Anyway I'll talk to you all soon be as well as you can Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Today on the Show: Israeli Security Services Arrest an Ultra-Orthodox Journalist for “Inciting Terror and Sedition” his crime? Writes Richard Silverstein: Justifying armed Palestinian resistance: Also Greg Palast and our weekly Election Crimes Bulletin takes the roadshow from Georgia to Wisconsin where Greg maintains another election is in the middle of being stolen: And Keith McHenry, founder of Food Not Bombs, joins us fresh from his prison cell for another edition of Foodfight, a continuing segment on the fight against hunger and houselessness with Keith McHenry. The post Israeli Security Services Arrest an Ultra-Orthodox Journalist. appeared first on KPFA.

Today on the Show: The federal trial of Stewart Rhodes, founder of  the extreme right-wing group, Oath Keepers goes to the jury. Will the group's founder end up in a jail cell for his attempt to overthrow the last presidential election in collaboration with Donald J Trump? Rhodes is facing charges including sedition. Also an update on US plans to send troops to Haiti, after US policy turns the resource rich country into a failed state. We'll also talk to Food Not Bombs founder, Keith McHenry about feeding the hungry on Thanksgiving, and Miguel Gavilan Molina joins us for a preview of KPFA/s special coverage of the Sunrise Ceremony on The Rock. The post Oath Keepers Trial Goes To The Jury appeared first on KPFA.

Today on the show: Pulitzer prize winning author, Alice Walker, joins an international call for the release of political prisoner and noted commentator, Mumia Abu Jamal: We continue our drum-beat coverage of The Front-line Battle for human rights at the US Mexico Border: We'll feature a field report leading up to tonight's Peace Summit in San Francisco which will focus on Mexico, State Terror, and US complicity: and our regular segment on Hunger and Houslessness, with Food Not Bombs founder, Keith McHenry. The post Alice Walker Joins an International Call for the Release of Mumia Abu Jamal. appeared first on KPFA.

Forward Radio was proud to live broadcast from the Vegan Breakfast Teach-In organized by our own Community Control Now on Saturday, October 8th at First Unitarian Church. Listen in to hear vegan testimonials from host Vincent Gonzalez and Food Not Bombs, Gay Adelmann who is running for JCPS School Board in District 4, the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) on the move to abolish the Supreme Court, Change Today, Change Tomorrow on their mutual aid work in our community, and a special live version of Community Control Now with Vincent Gonzalez and Michael Tee. The live broadcast was hosted by Forward Radio's Justin Mog.

In part two of this week's episode, Margaret continues her conversation with podcast host Andrew Ti about the long fight for our right to feed one another in public places.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Margaret talks with podcast host Andrew Ti about the long fight for our right to feed one another in public places.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Notes Episode summary Margaret talks with Elle an anarchist and security professional about different threat modeling approaches and analyzing different kinds of threats. They explore physical threats, digital security, communications, surveillance,and general OpSec mentalities for how to navigate the panopticon and do stuff in the world without people knowing about it...if you're in Czarist Russia of course. Guest Info Elle can be found on twitter @ellearmageddon. Host and Publisher The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Show Links Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Elle on Threat Modeling Margaret 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And with me at the exact moment is my dog, who has just jumped up to try and talk into the microphone and bite my arm. And, I use 'she' and 'they' pronouns. And this week, I'm going to be talking to my friend Elle, who is a, an anarchist security professional. And we're going to be talking about threat modeling. And we're going to be talking about how to figure out what people are trying to do to you and who's trying to do it and how to deal with different people trying to do different things. Like, what is the threat model around the fact that while I'm trying to record a podcast, my dog is biting my arm? And I am currently choosing to respond by trying to play it for humor and leaving it in rather than cutting it out and re recording. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Jingle Margaret 02:00 Okay, if you could introduce yourself, I guess, with your name and your pronouns, and then maybe what you do as relates to the stuff that we're going to be talking about today. Elle 02:10 Yeah, cool. Hi, I'm Elle. My pronouns are they/them. I am a queer, autistic, anarchist security practitioner. I do security for a living now that I've spent over the last decade, working with activist groups and NGOs, just kind of anybody who's got an interesting threat model to help them figure out what they can do to make themselves a little a little safer and a little more secure. Margaret 02:43 So that word threat model. That's actually kind of what I want to have you on today to talk about is, it's this word that we we hear a lot, and sometimes we throw into sentences when we want to sound really smart, or maybe I do that. But what does it mean, what is threat modeling? And why is it relevant? Elle 03:02 Yeah, I actually, I really love that question. Because I think that we a lot of people do use the term threat modeling without really knowing what they mean by it. And so to me, threat modeling is having an understanding of your own life in your own context, and who poses a realistic risk to you, and what you can do to keep yourself safe from them. So whether that's, you know, protecting communications that you have from, you know, state surveillance, or whether it's keeping yourself safe from an abusive ex, your threat model is going to vary based on your own life experiences and what you need to protect yourself from and who those people actually are and what they're capable of doing. Margaret 03:52 Are you trying to say there's not like one solution to all problems that we would just apply? Elle 03:58 You know, I love... Margaret 03:58 I don't understand. Elle 04:00 I know that everybody really, really loves the phrase "Use signal. Use TOR," and you know, thinks that that is the solution to all of life's problems. But it actually turns out that, no, you do have to have both an idea of what it is that you're trying to protect, whether it's yourself or something like your communications and who you're trying to protect it from, and how they can how they can actually start working towards gaining access to whatever it is that you're trying to defend. Margaret 04:31 One of the things that when I think about threat modeling that I think about is this idea of...because the levels of security that you take for something often limit your ability to accomplish different things. Like in Dungeons and Dragons, if you were plate armor, you're less able to be a dexterous rogue and stealth around. And so I think about threat modeling, maybe as like learning to balance....I'm kind of asking this, am I correct in this? Balancing what you're trying to accomplish with who's trying to stop you? Because like, you could just use TOR, for everything. And then also like use links the little like Lynx [misspoke "Tails"] USB keychain and never use a regular computer and never communicate with anyone and then never accomplish anything. But, it seems like that might not work. Elle 05:17 Yeah, I mean, the idea, the idea is to prevent whoever your adversaries are from keeping you from doing whatever you're trying to accomplish. Right? So if the security precautions that you're taking to prevent your adversaries from preventing you from doing a thing are also preventing you from doing the thing, then it doesn't matter, because your adversaries have just won, right? So there, there definitely is a need, you know, to be aware of risks that you're taking and decide which ones make sense, which ones don't make sense. And kind of look at it from from a dynamic of "Okay, is this something that is in my, you know, acceptable risk model? Is this a risk I'm willing to take? Are there things that I can do to, you know, do harm reduction and minimize the risk? Or at least like, make it less? Where are those trade offs? What, what is the maximum amount of safety or security that I can do for myself, while still achieving whatever it is that I'm trying to achieve?" Margaret 06:26 Do you actually ever like, chart it out on like, an X,Y axis where you get like, this is the point where you start getting diminishing returns? I'm just imagining it. I've never done that. Elle 06:37 In, in the abstract, yes, because that's part of how autism brain works for me. But in a, like actually taking pen to paper context, not really. But that's, you know, at least partially, because of that's something that autism brain just does for me. So I think it could actually be a super reasonable thing to do, for people whose brains don't auto filter that for them. But but I'm, I guess, lucky enough to be neurodivergent, and have like, you know, like, we always we joke in tech, "It's not a bug, it's a feature." And I feel like, you know, autism is kind of both sometimes. In some cases, it's totally a bug and and others, it's absolutely a feature. And this is one of the areas where it happens to be a feature, at least for me. Margaret 07:35 That makes sense. I, I kind of view my ADHD as a feature, in that, it allows me to hyper focus on topics and then move on and then not come back to them. Or also, which is what I do now for work with podcasting, and a lot of my writing. It makes it hard to write long books, I gotta admit, Elle 07:56 Yeah, I work with a bunch of people with varying neuro types. And it's really interesting, like, at least at least in my own team, I think that you know, the, the folks who are more towards the autism spectrum disorder side of of the house are more focused on things like application security, and kind of things that require sort of sustained hyper focus. And then folks with ADHD make just absolutely amazing, like incident responders and do really, really well in interrupt driven are interrupts heavy contexts, Margaret 08:38 Or sprinters. Elle 08:40 It's wild to me, because I'm just like, yes, this makes perfect sense. And obviously, like, these different tasks are better suited to different neuro types. But I've also never worked with a manager who actually thought about things in that way before. Margaret 08:53 Right. Elle 08:54 And so it's actually kind of cool to be to be in a position where I can be like, "Hey, like, Does this sound interesting to you? Would you rather focus on this kind of work?" And kind of get that that with people. Margaret 09:06 That makes sense that's.... i I'm glad that you're able to do that. I'm glad that people that you work with are able to have that you know, experience because it is it's hard to it's hard to work within....obviously the topic of today is...to working in the workplace is a neurodivergent person, but it I mean it affects so many of us you know, like almost whatever you do for work the the different ways your brain work are always struggling against it. So. Elle 09:32 Yeah, I don't know. It just it makes sense to me to like do your best to structure your life in a way that is more conducive to your neurotype. Margaret 09:44 Yeah. Elle 09:45 You know, if you can. Margaret 09:49 I don't even realize exactly how age ADHD I was until I tried to work within a normal workforce. I built my entire life around, not needing to live in one place or do one thing for sustained periods of time. But okay, but back to the threat modeling. Margaret 10:07 The first time I heard of, I don't know if it's the first time I heard a threat modeling or not, I don't actually know when I first started hearing that word. But the first time I heard about you, in the context of it was a couple years back, you had some kind of maybe it was tweets or something about how people were assuming that they should use, for example, the more activist focused email service Rise Up, versus whether they should just use Gmail. And I believe that you were making the case that for a lot of things, Gmail would actually be safer, because even though they don't care about you, they have a lot more resources to throw at the problem of keeping governments from reading their emails. That might be a terrible paraphrasing of what you said. But this, this is how I was introduced to this concept of threat modeling. If you wanted to talk about that example, and tell me how I got it all wrong. Elle 10:07 Yeah. Elle 10:58 Yeah. Um, so you didn't actually get it all wrong. And I think that the thing that I would add to that is that if you are engaging in some form of hypersensitive communication, email is not the mechanism that you want to do that. And so when I say things like, "Oh, you know, it probably actually makes sense to use Gmail instead of Rise Up," I mean, you know, contexts where you're maybe communicating with a lawyer and your communications are privileged, right?it's a lot harder to crack Gmail security than it is to crack something like Rise Up security, just by virtue of the volume of resources available to each of those organizations. And so where you specifically have this case where, you know, there's, there's some degree of legal protection for whatever that means, making sure that you're not leveraging something where your communications can be accessed without your knowledge or consent by a third party, and then used in a way that is conducive to parallel construction. Margaret 12:19 So what is parallel construction? Elle 12:20 Parallel construction is a legal term where you obtain information in a way that is not admissible in court, and then use that information to reconstruct a timeline or reconstruct a mechanism of access to get to that information in an admissible way. Margaret 12:39 So like every cop show Elle 12:41 Right, so like, with parallel construction around emails, for example, if you're emailing back and forth with your lawyer, and your lawyer is like, "Alright, like, be straight with me. Because I need to know if you've actually done this crime so that I can understand how best to defend you." And you're like, "Yeah, dude, I totally did that crime," which you should never admit to in writing anyway, because, again, email is not the format that you want to have this conversation in. But like, if you're gonna admit to having done crimes in email, for some reason, how easy it is for someone else to access that admission is important. Because if somebody can access this email admission of you having done the crimes where you're, you know, describing in detail, what crimes you did, when with who, then it starts, like, it gets a lot easier to be like, "Oh, well, obviously, we need to subpoena this person's phone records. And we should see, you know, we should use geolocation tracking of their device to figure out who they were in proximity to and who else was involved in this," and it can, it can be really easy to like, establish a timeline and get kind of the roadmap to all of the evidence that they would need to, to put you in jail. So it's, it's probably worth kind of thinking about how easy it is to access that that information. And again, don't don't admit to doing crimes in email, email is not the format that you want to use for admitting to having done crimes. But if you're going to, it's probably worth making sure that, you know, the the email providers that you are choosing are equipped with both robust security controls, and probably also like a really good legal team. Right? So if...like Rise Up isn't going to comply with the subpoena to the like, to the best of their ability, they're not going to do that, but it's a lot easier to sue Rise Up than it is to sue Google. Margaret 14:51 Right. Elle 14:51 And it's a lot easier to to break Rise Up's security mechanisms than it is to break Google's, just by virtue of how much time and effort each of those entities is able to commit to securing email. Please don't commit to doing crimes in email, just please just don't. Don't do it in writing. Don't do it. Margaret 15:15 Okay, let me change my evening plans. Hold on let me finish sending this email.. Elle 15:23 No! Margaret 15:25 Well, I mean, I guess like the one of the reasons that I thought so much about that example, and why it kind of stuck with me years later was just thinking about what people decide they're safe, because they did some basic security stuff. And I don't know if that counts under threat modeling. But it's like something I think about a lot is about people being like, "I don't understand, we left our cell phones at home and went on a walk in the woods," which is one of the safest ways anyone could possibly have a conversation. "How could anyone possibly have known this thing?" And I'm like, wait, you, you told someone you know, or like, like, not to make people more paranoid, but like... Elle 16:06 Or maybe, maybe you left your cell phone at home, but kept your smartwatch on you, because you wanted to close, you know, you wanted to get your steps for the day while you were having this conversation, right? Margaret 16:19 Because otherwise, does it even count if I'm not wearing my [smartwatch]. Elle 16:21 Right, exactly. And like, we joke, and we laugh, but like, it is actually something that people don't think about. And like, maybe you left your phones at home, and you went for a walk in the woods, but you took public transit together to get there and were captured on a bunch of surveillance cameras. Like there's, there's a lot of, especially if you've actually been targeted for surveillance, which is very rare, because it's very resource intensive. But you know, there there are alternate ways to track people. And it does depend on things like whether or not you've got additional tech on you, whether or not you were captured on cameras. And you know, whether whether or not your voices were picked up by ShotSpotter, as you were walking to wherever the woods were like, there's just there's we live in a panopticon. I don't say that so that people are paranoid about it, I say it because it's a lot easier to think about, where, when and how you want to phrase things. Margaret 17:27 Yeah. Elle 17:28 In a way that you know, still facilitates communications still facilitates achieving whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, but sets you sets you up to be as safe as possible in doing it. And I think that especially in anarchist circles, just... and honestly also in security circles, there's a lot of of like, dogmatic adherence to security ritual, that may or may not actually make sense based on both, you, who your actual adversaries are, and what their realistic capabilities are. Margaret 18:06 And what they're trying to actually accomplish I feel like is...Okay, one of the threat models that I like...I encourage people sometimes to carry firearms, right in very specific contexts. And it feels like a security... Oh, you had a good word for it that you just used...ritual of security theater, I don't remember...a firearm often feels like that, Elle 18:30 Right. Margaret 18:31 In a way where you're like," Oh, I'm safe now, right, because I'm carrying a firearm." And, for example, I didn't carry a firearm for a very long time. Because for a long time, my threat model, the people who messed with me, were cops. And if a cop is going to mess with me, I do not want to have a firearm on me, because it will potentially escalate a situation in a very bad way. Whereas when I came out and started, you know, when I started getting harassed more for being a scary transwoman, and less for being an anarchist, or a hitchhiker, or whatever, you know, now my threat model is transphobes, who wants to do me harm. And in a civilian-civilian context, I prefer I feel safer. And I believe I am safer in most situations armed in that case. But every time I leave the house, I have to think about "What is my threat model?" And then in a similar way, sorry, it's just me thinking about the threat model of firearms, but it's the main example that I think of, is that often people's threat model in terms of firearms and safety as themselves, right? And so you just actually need to do the soul searching where you're like,"What's more likely to happen to me today? Am I likely to get really sad, or am I likely to get attacked by fascists?" Elle 19:57 Yeah. And I think that there is there's an additional question, especially when you're talking about arming yourself, whether it's firearms, or carrying a knife, or whatever, because like, I don't own any firearms, but I do carry a knife a lot of the time. And so like some questions, some additional questions that you have to ask yourself are, "How confident am I in my own ability to use this to harm another person?" Because if you're going to hesitate, you're gonna get fucked up. Margaret 20:28 Yeah. Elle 20:28 Like, if you are carrying a weapon, and you pull it out and hesitate in using it, it's gonna get taken away from you, and it's going to be used against you. So that's actually one of the biggest questions that I would say people should be asking themselves when developing a threat model around arming themselves is, "Will I actually use this? How confident am I?" if you're not confident, then it's okay to leave it at home. It's okay to practice more. It's okay to like develop that familiarity before you start using it as an EDC. Sorry an Every Day Carry. And then the you know, the other question is, "How likely am I to get arrested here?" I carry, I carry a knife that I absolutely do know how to use most of the time when I leave the house. But when I'm going to go to a demonstration, because the way that I usually engage in protests or in demonstrations is in an emergency medical response capacity, I carry a medic kit instead. And my medic kit is a clean bag that does not have any sharp objects in it. It doesn't have anything that you know could be construed as a weapon it doesn't have...it doesn't...I don't even have weed gummies which are totally like recreationally legal here, right? I won't even put weed in the medic kit. It's it is very much a... Margaret 21:52 Well, if you got a federally arrested you'd be in trouble with that maybe. Elle 21:55 Yeah, sure, I guess. But, like the medic bag is very...nothing goes in this kit ever that I wouldn't want to get arrested carrying. And so there's like EMT shears in there. Margaret 22:12 Right. Elle 22:13 But that's that's it in terms of like... Margaret 22:16 Those are scary you know...the blunted tips. Elle 22:21 I know, the blunted tips and the like safety, whatever on them. It's just...it's it is something to think about is "Where am I going...What...Who am I likely to encounter? And like what are the trade offs here?" Margaret 22:37 I remember once going to a demonstration a very long time ago where our like, big plan was to get in through all of the crazy militarized downtown in this one city and, and the big plan is we're gonna set up a Food Not Bombs inside the security line of the police, you know. And so we picked one person, I think I was the sacrificial person, who had to carry a knife, because we had to get the folding tables that we're gonna put the food on off of the top of the minivan. And we had to do it very quickly, and they were tied on. And so I think I brought the knife and then left it in the car and the car sped off. And then we fed people and they had spent ten million dollars protecting the city from 30 people feeding people Food Not Bombs. Elle 23:20 Amazing. Margaret 23:22 But, but yeah, I mean, whereas every other day in my life, especially back then when I was a hitchhiker, I absolutely carried a knife. Elle 23:30 Yeah. Margaret 23:31 You know, for multiple purposes. Yeah, okay, so then it feels like...I like rooting it in the self defense stuff because I think about that a lot and for me it maybe then makes sense to sort of build up and out from there as to say like...you know, if someone's threat model is my ex-partner's new partner is trying to hack me or my abusive ex is trying to hack me or something, that's just such a different threat model than... Elle 24:04 Yeah, it is. Margaret 24:05 Than the local police are trying to get me versus the federal police are trying to get me versus a foreign country is trying to get me you know, and I and it feels like sometimes those things are like contradictory to each other about what isn't isn't the best maybe. Elle 24:19 They are, because each of those each of those entities is going to have different mechanisms for getting to you and so you know, an abusive partner or abusive ex is more likely to have physical access to you, and your devices, than you know, a foreign entity is, right? Because there's there's proximity to think about, and so you know, you might want to have....Actually the....Okay, so the abusive ex versus the cops, right. A lot of us now have have phones where the mechanism for accessing them is either a password, or some kind of biometric identifier. So like a fingerprint, or you know, face ID or whatever. And there's this very dogmatic adherence to "Oh, well, passwords are better." But passwords might actually not be better. Because if somebody has regular proximity to you, they may be able to watch you enter your password and get enough information to guess it. And if you're, if you're not using a biometric identifier, in those use cases, then what can happen is they can guess your password, or watch, you type it in enough time so that they get a good feeling for what it is. And they can then access your phone without your knowledge while you're sleeping. Right? Margaret 25:46 Right. Elle 25:47 And sometimes just knowing whether or not your your adversary has access to your phone is actually a really useful thing. Because you know how much information they do or don't have. Margaret 26:01 Yeah. No that's... Elle 26:03 And so it really is just about about trade offs and harm reduction. Margaret 26:08 That never would have occurred to me before. I mean, it would occur to me if someone's trying to break into my devices, but I have also fallen into the all Biometrics is bad, right? Because it's the password, you can't change because the police can compel you to open things with biometrics, but they can't necessarily compel you...is more complicated to be compelled to enter a password. Elle 26:31 I mean, like, it's only as complicated as a baton. Margaret 26:34 Yeah, there's that XKCD comic about this. Have you seen it? Elle 26:37 Yes. Yes, I have. And it is it is an accurate....We like in security, we call it you know, the Rubber Hose method, right? It we.... Margaret 26:46 The implication here for anyone hasn't read it is that they can beat you up and get you to give them their [password]. Elle 26:50 Right people, people will usually if they're hit enough times give up their password. So you know, I would say yeah, you should disable biometric locks, if you're going to go out to a demonstration, right? Which is something that I do. I actually do disable face ID if I'm taking my phone to a demo. But it...you may want to use it as your everyday mechanism, especially if you're living in a situation where knowing whether or not your abuser has access to your device is likely to make a difference in whether you have enough time to escape. Margaret 27:30 Right. These axioms or these these beliefs we all have about this as the way to do security,the you know...I mean, it's funny, because you brought up earlier like use Signal use Tor, I am a big advocate of like, I just use Signal for all my communication, but I also don't talk about crime pretty much it in general anyway. You know. So it's more like just like bonus that it can't be read. I don't know. Elle 27:57 Yeah. I mean, again, it depends, right? Because Signal...Signal has gotten way more usable. I've been, I've been using Signal for a decade, you know, since it was still Redphone and TextSecure. And in the early days, I used to joke that it was so secure, sometimes your intended recipients don't even get the messages. Margaret 28:21 That's how I feel about GPG or PGP or whatever the fuck. Elle 28:24 Oh, those those.... Margaret 28:27 Sorry, didn't mean to derail you. Elle 28:27 Let's not even get started there. But so like Signal again, has gotten much better, and is way more reliable in terms of delivery than it used to be. But I used to, I used to say like, "Hey, if it's if it's really, really critical that your message reach your recipient, Signal actually might not be the way to do it." Because if you need if you if you're trying to send a time sensitive message with you know guarantee that it actually gets received, because Signal used to be, you know, kind of sketchy on or unreliable on on delivery, it might not have been the best choice at the time. One of the other things that I think that people, you know, think...don't think about necessarily is that Signal is still widely viewed as a specific security tool. And that's, that's good in a lot of cases. But if you live somewhere, for example, like Belarus, where it's not generally considered legal to encrypt things, then the presence of Signal on your device is enough in and of itself to get you thrown in prison. Margaret 29:53 Right. Elle 29:53 And so sometimes having a mechanism like, you know, Facebook secret messages might seem like a really, really sketchy thing to do. But if your threat model is you can't have security tools on your phone, but you still want to be able to send encrypted messages or ephemeral messages, then that actually might be the best way to kind of fly under the radar. So yeah, it again just really comes down to thinking about what it is that you're trying to protect? From who? And under what circumstances? Margaret 30:32 Yeah, I know, I like this. I mean, obviously, of course, you've thought about this thing that you think about. I'm like, I'm just like, kind of like, blown away thinking about these things. Although, okay, one of these, like security things that I kind of want to push back on, and actually, this is a little bit sketchy to push back on, the knife thing. To go back to a knife. I am. I have talked to a lot of people who have gotten themselves out of very bad situations by drawing a weapon without then using it, which is illegal. It is totally illegal. Elle 31:03 Yes Margaret 31:03 I would never advocate that anyone threaten anyone with a weapon. But, I know people who have committed this crime in order to...even I mean, sometimes it's in situations where it'd be legal to stab somebody,like... Elle 31:16 Sure. Margaret 31:16 One of the strangest laws in the United States is that, theoretically, if I fear for my life, I can draw a gun.... And not if I fear for my life, if I am, if my life is literally being threatened, physically, if I'm being attacked, I can I can legally draw a firearm and shoot someone, I can legally pull a knife and stab someone to defend myself. I cannot pull a gun and say "Back the fuck off." And not only is it illegal, but it also is a security axiom, I guess that you would never want to do that. Because as you pointed out, if you hesitate now the person has the advantage, they have more information than they used to. But I still know a lot of hitchhikers who have gotten out of really bad situations by saying, "Let me the fuck out of the car." Elle 32:05 Sure. Margaret 32:06 Ya know?. Elle 32:06 Absolutely. It's not....Sometimes escalating tactically can be a de-escalation. Right? Margaret 32:17 Right. Elle 32:18 Sometimes pulling out a weapon or revealing that you have one is enough to make you no longer worth attacking. But you never know how someone's going to respond when you do that, right? Margaret 32:33 Totally Elle 32:33 So you never know whether it's going to cause them to go "Oh shit, I don't want to get stabbed or I don't want to get shot," and stop or whether it's going to trigger you know a more aggressive response. So it doesn't mean that you know, you, if you pull a weapon you have to use it. Margaret 32:52 Right. Elle 32:53 But if you're going to carry one then you do need to be confident that you will use it. Margaret 32:58 No, that that I do agree with that. Absolutely. Elle 33:00 And I think that is an important distinction, and I you know I also think that...not 'I think', using a gun and using a knife are two very different things. For a lot of people, pulling the trigger on a gun is going to be easier than stabbing someone. Margaret 33:20 Yeah that's true. Elle 33:21 Because of the proximity to the person and because of how deeply personal stabbing someone actually is versus how detached you can be and still pull the trigger. Margaret 33:35 Yeah. Elle 33:36 Like I would...it sounds...it feels weird to say but I would actually advocate most people carry a gun instead of a knife for that reason, and also because if you're, if you're worried about being physically attacked, you know you have more range of distance where you can use something like a gun than you do with a knife. You have to be, you have to be in close quarters to to effectively use a knife unless you're like really good at throwing them for some reason and even I wouldn't, cause if you miss...now your adversary has a knife. Margaret 34:14 I know yeah. Unless you miss by a lot. I mean actually I guess if you hit they have a knife now too. Elle 34:22 True. Margaret 34:23 I have never really considered whether or not throwing knives are effective self-defense weapons and I don't want to opine too hard on this show. Elle 34:31 I advise against it. Margaret 34:32 Yeah. Okay, so to go back to threat modeling about more operational security type stuff. You're clearly not saying these are best practices, but you're instead it seems like you're advocating of "This as the means by which you might determine your best practices." Elle 34:49 Yes. Margaret 34:49 Do you have a...do you have a a tool or do you have like a like, "Hey, here's some steps you can take." I mean, we all know you've said like, "Think about your enemy," and such like that, but Is there a more...Can you can you walk me through that? Elle 35:04 I mean, like, gosh, it really depends on who your adversary is, right? Elle 35:10 Like, if you're if you're thinking about an abusive partner, that's obviously going to vary based on things like, you know, is your abusive partner, someone who has access to weapons? Are they someone who is really tech savvy? Or are they not. At...The things that you have to think about are going to just depend on the skills and tools that they have access to? Is your abusive partner or your abusive ex a cop? Because that changes some things. Margaret 35:10 Yeah, fair enough. Margaret 35:20 Yeah. Elle 35:27 So like, most people, if they actually have a real and present kind of persistent threat in their life, also have a pretty good idea of what that threat is capable of, or what that threat actor or is capable of. And so it, it's it, I think, it winds up being fairly easy to start thinking about things in terms of like, "Okay, how is this person going to come after me? How, what, what tools do they have? What skills do they have? What ability do they have to kind of attack me or harm me?" But I think that, you know, as we start getting away from that really, really, personal threat model of like the intimate partner violence threat model, for example, and start thinking about more abstract threat models, like "I'm an anarchist living in a state," because no state is particularly fond of us. Margaret 36:50 Whaaaat?! Elle 36:51 I know it's wild, because like, you know, we just want to abolish the State and States, like want to not be abolished, and I just don't understand how, how they would dislike us for any reason.. Margaret 37:03 Yeah, it's like when I meet someone new, and I'm like, "Hey, have you ever thought about being abolished?" They're usually like, "Yeah, totally have a beer." Elle 37:10 Right. No, it's... Margaret 37:11 Yes. Elle 37:11 For sure. Um, but when it comes to when it comes to thinking about, you know, the anarchist threat model, I think that a lot of us have this idea of like, "Oh, the FBI is spying on me personally." And the likelihood of the FBI specifically spying on 'you' personally is like, actually pretty slim. But... Margaret 37:34 Me? Elle 37:35 Well... Margaret 37:37 No, no, I want to go back to thinking about it's slim, it's totally slim. Elle 37:41 Look...But like, there's there is a lot like, we know that, you know, State surveillance dragnet exists, right, we know that, you know, plaintext text messages, for example, are likely to be caught both by, you know, Cell Site Simulators, which are in really, really popular use by law enforcement agencies. Margaret 38:08 Which is something that sets up and pretends to be a cell tower. So it takes all the data that is transmitted over it. And it's sometimes used set up at demonstrations. Elle 38:16 Yes. So they, they both kind of convinced your phone into thinking that they are the nearest cell tower, and then actually pass your communications on to the next, like the nearest cell tower. So your communications do go through, they're just being logged by this entity in the middle. That's, you know, not great. But using something... Margaret 38:38 Unless you're the Feds. Elle 38:39 I mean, even if you... Margaret 38:41 You just have to think about it from their point of. Hahah. Elle 38:42 Even if you are the Feds, that's actually too much data for you to do anything useful with, you know? Margaret 38:50 Okay, I'll stop interuppting you. Haha. Elle 38:51 Like, it's just...but if you're if you are a person who is a person of interest who's in this group, where a cell site simulator has been deployed or whatever, then then that you know, is something that you do have to be concerned about and you know, even if you're not a person of interest if you're like texting your friend about like, "All right, we do crime in 15 minutes," like I don't know, it's maybe not a great idea. Don't write it down if you're doing crime. Don't do crime. But more importantly don't don't create evidence that you're planning to do crime, because now you've done two crimes which is the crime itself and conspiracy to commit a crime Margaret 39:31 Be straight. Follow the law. That's the motto here. Elle 39:35 Yes. Oh, sorry. I just like I don't know, autism brain involuntarily pictured, like an alternate universe in which in where which I am straight, and law abiding. And I'm just I'm very... Margaret 39:52 Sounds terrible. I'm sorry. Elle 39:53 Right. Sounds like a very boring.... Margaret 39:55 Sorry to put that image in your head. Elle 39:56 I mean, I would never break laws. Margaret 39:58 No. Elle 39:59 Ever Never ever. I have not broken any laws I will not break any laws. No, I think that... Margaret 40:08 The new "In Minecraft" is "In Czarist Russia." Instead of saying "In Minecraft," because it's totally blown. It's only okay to commit crimes "In Czarist Russia." Elle 40:19 Interesting. Margaret 40:23 All right. We don't have to go with that. I don't know why i got really goofy. Elle 40:27 I might be to Eastern European Jewish for that one. Margaret 40:31 Oh God. Oh, my God, now I just feel terrible. Elle 40:34 It's It's fine. It's fine. Margaret 40:36 Well, that was barely a crime by east... Elle 40:40 I mean it wasn't necessarily a crime, but like my family actually emigrated to the US during the first set of pogroms. Margaret 40:51 Yeah. Elle 40:52 So like, pre Bolshevik Revolution. Margaret 40:57 Yeah. Elle 40:59 But yeah, anyway. Margaret 41:02 Okay, well, I meant taking crimes like, I basically think that, you know, attacking the authorities in Czarist Russia is a more acceptable action is what I'm trying to say, I really don't have to try and sell you on this plan. Elle 41:16 I'm willing to trust your judgment here. Margaret 41:19 That's a terrible plan, but I appreciate you, okay. Either way, we shouldn't text people about the crimes that we're doing. Elle 41:26 We should not text people about the crimes that we're planning on doing. But, if you are going to try to coordinate timelines, you might want to do that using some form of encrypted messenger so that whatever is logged by a cell site simulator, if it is in existence is not possible by the people who are then retrieving those logs. And you know, and another reason to use encrypted messengers, where you can is that you don't necessarily want your cell provider to have that unencrypted message block. And so if you're sending SMS, then your cell, your cell provider, as the processor of that data has access to an unencrypted or plain text version of whatever text message you're sending, where if you're using something like Signal or WhatsApp, or Wicker, or Wire or any of the other, like, multitude of encrypted messengers that you could theoretically be using, then it's it's also not going directly through your your provider, which I think is an interesting distinction. Because, you know, we we know, from, I mean, we kind of sort of already knew, but we know for a fact, from the Snowden Papers, that cell providers will absolutely turn over your data to the government if they're asked for it. And so minimizing the amount of data that they have about you to turn over to the government is generally a good practice. Especially if you can do it in a way that isn't going to be a bunch of red flags. Margaret 43:05 Right, like being in Belarus and using Signal. Elle 43:08 Right. Exactly. Margaret 43:10 Okay. Also, there's the Russian General who used an unencrypted phone where he then got geo located and blowed up. Elle 43:23 Yeah. Margaret 43:24 Also bad threat modeling on that that guy's part, it seems like Elle 43:28 I it, it certainly seems to...that person certainly seems to have made several poor life choices, not the least of which was being a General in the Russian army. Margaret 43:41 Yeah, yeah. That, that tracks. So one of the things that we talked about, while we were talking about having this conversation, our pre-conversation conversation was about...I think you brought up this idea that something that feels secret, doesn't mean it is, and Elle 43:59 Yeah! Margaret 44:00 I'm wondering if you had more thoughts about that concept? It's not a very good prompt. Elle 44:05 So like, it's it's a totally reasonable prompt, we say a lot that, you know, security and safety are a feeling. And I think that that actually is true for a lot of us. But there's this idea that, Oh, if you use coded language, for example, then like, you can't get caught. I don't actually think that's true, because we tend to use coded language that's like, pretty easily understandable by other people. Because the purpose of communicating is to communicate. Margaret 44:42 Yeah. Elle 44:43 And so usually, if you're like, code language is easy enough to be understood by whoever it is you're trying to communicate with, like, someone else can probably figure it the fuck out too. Especially if you're like, "Hey, man, did you bring the cupcakes," and your friend is like, "Yeah!" And then an explosion goes off shortly thereafter, right? It's like, "Oh, by cupcakes, they meant dynamite." So I, you know, I think that rather than then kind of like relying on this, you know, idea of how spies work or how, how anarchists communicated secretly, you know, pre WTO it's, it's worth thinking about how the surveillance landscape has adapted over time, and thinking a little bit more about what it means to engage in, in the modern panopticon, or the contemporary panopticon, because those capabilities have changed over time. And things like burner phones are a completely different prospect now than they used to be. Actually... Margaret 45:47 In that they're easier or wose? Elle 45:49 Oh, there's so much harder to obtain now. Margaret 45:51 Yeah, okay. Elle 45:52 It's it is so much easier to correlate devices that have been used in proximity to each other than it used to be. And it's so much easier to, you know, capture people on surveillance cameras than it used to be. I actually wrote a piece for Crimethinc about this some years ago, that that I think kind of still holds up in terms of how difficult it really, really is to procure a burner phone. And in order to do to do that safely, you would have to pay cash somewhere that couldn't capture you on camera doing it, and then make sure that it was never turned on in proximity with your own phone anywhere. And you would have to make sure that it only communicated with other burner phones, because the second it communicates with a phone that's associated to another person, there's a connection between your like theoretical burner phone and that person. And so you can be kind of triangulated back to, especially if you've communicated with multiple people. It just it is so hard to actually obtain a device that is not in any way affiliated with your identity or the identity of any of your comrades. But, we have to start thinking about alternative mechanisms for synchronous communication. Margaret 47:18 Okay. Elle 47:18 And, realistically speaking, taking a walk in the woods is still going to be the best way to do it. Another reasonable way to go about having a conversation that needs to remain private is actually to go somewhere that is too loud and too crowded to...for anyone to reasonably overhear or to have your communication recorded. So using using the kind of like, signal to noise ratio in your favor. Margaret 47:51 Yeah. Elle 47:52 To help drown out your own signal can be really, really useful. And I think that that's also true of things like using Gmail, right? The signal to noise ratio, if you're not using a tool that's specifically for activists can be very helpful, because there is just so much more traffic happening, that it's easier to blend in. Margaret 48:18 I mean, that's one reason why I mean, years ago, people were saying that's why non activists should use GPG, the encrypted email service that is terrible, was so attempt to try and be like, if you only ever use it, for the stuff you don't want to be known, then it like flags it as "This stuff you don't want to be known." And so that was like, kind of an argument for my early adoption Signal, because I don't break laws was, you know, just be like," Oh, here's more people using Signal," it's more regularized, and, you know, my my family talks on Signal and like, it helps that like, you know, there's a lot of different very normal legal professions that someone might have that are require encrypted communication. Yeah, no book, like accountants, lawyers. But go ahead. Elle 49:06 No, no, I was gonna say that, like, it's, it's very common in my field of work for people to prefer to use Signal to communicate, especially if there is, you know, a diversity of phone operating systems in the mix. Margaret 49:21 Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, it's actually now it's more convenient. You know, when I when I'm on my like, family's SMS loop, it's like, I constantly get messages to say, like, "Brother liked such and such comment," and then it's like, three texts of that comment and...anyway, but okay, one of the things that you're talking about, "Security as a feeling," right? That actually gets to something that's like, there is a value in like, like, part of the reason to carry a knife is to feel better. Like, and so part of like, like anti-anxiety, like anxiety is my biggest threat most most days, personally. Right? Elle 50:00 Have you ever considered a career in the security field, because I, my, my, my former manager, like the person who hired me into the role that I'm in right now was like, "What made you get into security?" when I was interviewing, and I was just like, "Well, I had all this anxiety lying around. And I figured, you know, since nobody will give me a job that I can afford to sustain myself on without a degree, in any other field, I may as well take all this anxiety and like, sell it as a service." Margaret 50:33 Yeah, I started a prepper podcast. It's what you're listening to right now. Everyone who's listening. Yeah, exactly. Well, there's a value in that. But then, but you're talking about the Panopticon stuff, and the like, maybe being in too crowded of an environment. And it's, and this gets into something where everyone is really going to have to answer it differently. There's a couple of layers to this, but like, the reason that I just like, my profile picture on twitter is my face. I use my name, right? Elle 51:03 Same. Margaret 51:04 And, yeah, and I, and I just don't sweat it, because I'm like, "Look, I've been at this long enough that they know who I am. And it's just fine. It's just is." One day, it won't be fine. And then we have other problems. Right? Elle 51:18 Right. Margaret 51:19 And, and, and I'm not saying that everyone as they get better security practice will suddenly start being public like it... You know, it, it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Like, a lot of the reasons to not be public on social media is just because it's a fucking pain in the ass. Like, socially, you know? Elle 51:36 Yeah. Margaret 51:36 But I don't know, I just wonder if you have any thoughts about just like, the degree to which sometimes it's like, "Oh, well, I just, I carry a phone to an action because I know, I'm not up to anything." But then you get into this, like, then you're non-normalizing... don't know, it gets complicated. And I'm curious about your thoughts on that kind of stuff. Elle 51:56 So like, for me, for me personally, I am very public about who I am. What I'm about, like, what my politics are. I'm extremely open about it. Partially, because I don't think that, like I think that there is value in de-stigmatizing anarchism. Margaret 52:20 Yes. Elle 52:20 I think there is value in being someone who is just a normal fucking human being. And also anarchist. Margaret 52:29 Yeah. Elle 52:30 And I think that, you know, I...not even I think. I know, I know that, through being exactly myself and being open about who I am, and not being super worried about the labels that other people apply to themselves. And instead, kind of talking about, talking about anarchism, both from a place of how it overlaps with Judaism, because it does in a lot of really interesting ways, but also just how it informs my decision making processes. I've been able to expose people who would not necessarily have had any, like, concept of anarchism, or the power dynamics that we're interested in equalizing to people who just wouldn't have wouldn't have even thought about it, or would have thought that anarchists are like this big, scary, whatever. And, like, there, there are obviously a multitude of tendencies within anarchism, and no anarchist speaks for anybody but themselves, because that's how it works. But, it's one of the things that's been really interesting to me is that in the security field, one of the new buzzwords is Zero Trust. And the idea is that you don't want to give any piece of technology kind of the sole ability to to be the linchpin in your security, right? So you want to build redundancy, you want to make sure that no single thing is charged with being the gatekeeper for all of your security. And I think that that concept actually also applies to power. And so I...when I'm trying to talk about anarchism in a context where it makes sense to security people, I sometimes talk about it as like a Zero Trust mechanism for organizing a society. Margaret 54:21 Yeah. Elle 54:21 Where you just you...No person is trustworthy enough to hold power over another person. And, so like, I'm really open about it, but the flip side of that is that, you know, I also am a fucking anarchist, and I go to demonstrations, and sometimes I get arrested or whatever. And so I'm not super worried about the government knowing who I am because they know exactly who I am. But I don't share things like my place of work on the internet because I've gotten death threats from white nationalists. And I don't super want white nationalists like sending death threats into my place of work because It's really annoying to deal with. Margaret 55:02 Yeah. Elle 55:03 And so you know, there's...it really comes down to how you think about compartmentalizing information. And which pieces of yourself you want public and private and and how, how you kind of maintain consistency in those things. Margaret 55:21 Yeah. Elle 55:22 Like people will use the same...people will like be out and anarchists on Twitter, but use the same Twitter handle as their LinkedIn URL where they're talking about their job and have their legal name. And it's just like, "Buddy, what are you doing?" Margaret 55:37 Yeah. Elle 55:38 So you do have to think about how pieces of data can be correlated and tied back to you. And what story it is that you're you're presenting, and it is hard and you are going to fuck it up. Like people people are going to fuck it up. Compartmentalization is super hard. Maintaining operational security is extremely hard. But it is so worth thinking about. And even if you do fuck it up, you know, that doesn't mean that it's the end of the world, it might mean that you have to take some extra steps to mitigate that risk elsewhere. Margaret 56:11 The reason I like this whole framework that you're building is that I tend to operate under this conception that clandestinity is a trap. I don't want to I don't want to speak this....I say it as if it's a true statement across all and it's not it. I'm sure there's absolute reasons in different places at different times. But in general, when I look at like social movements, they, once they move to "Now we're just clandestine." That's when everyone dies. And, again, not universally, Elle 56:40 Yeah, but I mean, okay, so this is where I'm gonna get like really off the wall. Right? Margaret 56:46 All right. We're an hour in. It's the perfect time. Elle 56:50 I know, right? People may or may not know who Allen Dulles is. But Allen Margaret 56:54 Not unless they named an airport after him. Elle 56:56 They Did. Margaret 56:57 Oh, then i do who he is. Elle 56:59 Allen Dulles is one of the people who founded the CIA. And he released this pamphlet called "73 Points On Spycraft." And it's a really short read. It's really interesting, I guess. But the primary point is that if you are actually trying to be clandestine, and be successful about it, you want to be as mundane as possible. Margaret 57:22 Yep. Elle 57:23 And in our modern world with the Panopticon being what it is, the easiest way to be clandestine, is actually to be super open. So that if you are trying to hide something, if there is something that you do want to keep secret, there's enough information out there about you, that you're not super worth digging into. Margaret 57:46 Oh, yeah. Cuz they think they already know you. Elle 57:48 Exactly. So if, if that is what your threat model is, then the best way to go about keeping a secret is to flood as many other things out there as possible. So that it's just it's hard to find anything, but whatever it is that you're flooding. Margaret 58:04 Oh, it's like I used to, to get people off my back about my dead name, I would like tell one person in a scene, a fake dead name, and be like, "But you can't tell anyone." Elle 58:15 Right. Margaret 58:16 And then everyone would stop asking about my dead name, because they all thought they knew it, because that person immediately told everyone, Elle 58:22 Right. Margaret 58:23 Yeah. Elle 58:24 It's, it's going back to that same using the noise to hide your signal concept, that it...the same, the same kind of concepts and themes kind of play out over and over and over again. And all security really is is finding ways to do harm reduction for yourself, finding ways to minimize the risk that you're undertaking just enough that that you can operate in whatever it is that you're trying to do. Margaret 58:53 No, I sometimes I like, ask questions. And then I am like, Okay, well don't have an immediate follow up, because I just need to like, think about it. Instead of being like, "I know immediately what to say about that." But okay, so, but with clandestinity in general in this this concept...I also think that this is true on a kind of movement level in a way that I I worry about sometimes not necessarily....Hmm, what am I trying to say? Because I also really hate telling people what to do. It's like kind of my thing I don't like telling people what to do. But there's a certain level... Elle 59:25 Really? Margaret 59:25 Yeah, you'd be shocked to know, Elle 59:27 You? Don't like telling people what to do? Margaret 59:31 Besides telling people not to tell me what to do. That's one of my favorite things to tell people. But, there's a certain amount of. Margaret 59:38 Oh, that's true, like different conceptions of freedom. Elle 59:38 But that's not telling people what to do, that's telling people what not to do. Elle 59:44 It's actually setting a boundary as opposed to dictating a behavior. Margaret 59:48 But I've been in enough relationships where I've learned that setting boundaries is the same as telling people to do. This is a funny joke. Elle 59:55 Ohh co-dependency. Margaret 59:58 But all right, there's a quote from a guy whose name I totally space who was an old revolutionist, who wasn't very good at his job. And his quote was, "Those who make half a revolution dig their own graves." And I think he like, I think it proved true for him. If I remember correctly, I think he died in jail after kind of making half a revolution with some friends. I think he got like arrested for pamphleteering or something, Elle 1:00:20 Jesus. Margaret 1:00:21 It was a couple hundred years ago. And but there's this but then if you look forward in history that like revolutionists, who survive are the ones who win. Sometimes, sometimes the revolutionists win, and then their comrades turn on them and murder them. But, I think overall, the survival rate of a revolution is better when you win is my theory. And and so there's this this concept where there's a tension, and I don't have an answer to it. And I want people to actually think about it instead of assuming, where the difference between videotaping a cop car on fire and not is more complicated than people want you to know. Because, if you want there to be more cop cars on fire, which I do not unless we're in Czarist Russia, in which case, you're in an autocracy, and it's okay to set the cop cars on fire, but I'm clearly not talking about that, or the modern world. But, you're gonna have to film it on your cell phone in order for people to fucking know that it's happening. Sure. And and that works absolutely against your best interest. Like, on an individual level, and even a your friends' level. Elle 1:01:25 So like, here's the thing, being in proximity to a burning cop car is not in and of itself a crime. Margaret 1:01:33 Right. Elle 1:01:34 So there's, there's nothing wrong with filming a cop car on fire. Margaret 1:01:41 But there's that video... Margaret 1:01:41 Right. Elle 1:01:41 There is something wrong with filming someone setting a cop car on fire. And there's something extremely wrong with taking a selfie while setting a cop car on fire. And don't do that, because you shouldn't do crime. Obviously, right? Elle 1:01:42 But there's Layers there...No, go ahead. Margaret 1:02:03 Okay, well, there's the video that came out of Russia recently, where someone filmed themselves throwing Molotovs at a recruitment center. And one of the first comments I see is like, "Wow, this person has terrible OpSec." And that's true, right? Like this person is not looking at how to maximize their lack of chance of going to jail, which is probably the way to maximize that in non Czarist Russia... re-Czarist Russia, is to not throw anything burning at buildings. That's the way to not go to jail. Elle 1:02:35 Right. Margaret 1:02:35 And then if you want to throw the thing at the... and if all you care about is setting this object on fire, then don't film yourself. Elle 1:02:41 Right. Margaret 1:02:41 But if you want more people to know that this is a thing that some people believe is a worthwhile thing to do, you might need to film yourself doing it now that person well didn't speak. Elle 1:02:53 Well no. Margaret 1:02:56 Okay. Elle 1:02:56 You may not need to film yourself doing it. Right? Because what what you can do is if, for example, for some reason, you are going to set something on fire. Margaret 1:03:09 Right, in Russia. Elle 1:03:09 Perhaps what you might want to do is first get the thing to be in a state where it is on fire, and then begin filming the thing once it is in a burning state. Margaret 1:03:25 Conflaguration. Yeah. Elle 1:03:25 Right? And that can that can do a few things, including A) you're not inherently self incriminating. And, you know, if if there are enough people around to provide some form of cover, like for example, if there are 1000s of other people's cell phones also in proximity, it might even create some degree of plausible deniability for you because what fucking dipshit films themself doing crimes. So it's, you know, there's, there's, there's some timing things, right. And the idea is to get it...if you are a person who believes that cop cars look best on fire... Margaret 1:04:10 Buy a cop car, and then you set it on fire. And then you film it. Elle 1:04:15 I mean, you know, you know, you just you opportunistically film whenever a cop car happens to be on fire in your proximity. Margaret 1:04:23 Oh, yeah. Which might have been set on fire by the person who owned it. There's no reason to know one way or not. Elle 1:04:27 Maybe the police set the cop car on fire you know? You never know. There's no way to there....You don't have to you don't have to speculate about how the cop car came to be on fire. You can just film a burning cop car. And so the you know, I think that the line to walk there is just making sure there's no humans in your footage of things that you consider to be art. Margaret 1:04:29 Yeah. No, it it makes sense. And I guess it's like because people very, very validly have been very critical about the ways that media or people who are independently media or whatever, like people filming shit like this, right? But But I think then to say that like, therefore no, no cop cars that are on fire should ever be filmed versus the position you're presenting, which is only cop cars that are already on fire might deserve to be filmed, which is the kind of the long standing like film the broken window, not the window breaker and things like that. But... Elle 1:05:29 I think and I think also there's, you know, there's a distinction to be made between filming yourself setting a cop car on fire, and filming someone else setting a cop car on fire, because there's a consent elemenet, right? Margaret 1:05:34 Totally. Totally. Elle 1:05:47 You shouldn't like...Don't do crime. Nobody should do crime. But if you are going to do crime, do it on purpose. Right? Margaret 1:05:55 Fair enough. Elle 1:05:55 Like that's, that's what civil disobedience is. Civil disobedience is doing crime for the purpose of getting caught to make a point. That's what it is. And if you if you really feel that strongly about doing a crime to make a point, and you want everyone to know that you're doing a crime to make a point, then that's, that's a risk calculation that you yourself need to make for yourself. But you can't make that calculation for anybody else. Margaret 1:06:25 I think that's a great way to sum it up. Elle 1:06:27 So unless your friend is like, "Yo, I'm gonna set this cop car on fire. Like, get the camera ready, hold my beer." You probably shouldn't be filming them. Margaret 1:06:38 See you in 30 years. Elle 1:06:39 Right? You probably shouldn't be filming them setting the cop car on fire either. Margaret 1:06:43 No. No Elle 1:06:44 And also, that's a shitty friend because they've just implicated you in conspiracy, right? Margaret 1:06:49 Yeah. Elle 1:06:50 Friends don't implicate friends. Margaret 1:06:53 It's a good, it's a good rule. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I that's not entirely where I immediately expected to go with Threat Modeling. But I feel like we've covered an awful lot. Is there something? Is there something...Do you have any, like final thoughts about Threat Modeling, and as relates to the stuff that we've been talking about? Elle 1:07:18 I think that you know, the thing that I do really want to drive home. And that honestly does come back to your point about clandestinity being a trap is that, again, the purpose of threat modeling is to first understand, you know, what risks you're trying to protect against, and then figure out how to do what you're accomplishing in a way that minimizes risk. But the important piece is still doing whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, whether that's movement building, or something else. And so there there is, there is a calculation that needs to be made in terms of what level of risk is acceptable to you. But if if, ultimately, your risk threshold is preventing you from accomplishing whatever you're trying to accomplish, then it's time to take a step back, recalculate and figure out whether or not you actually want to accomplish the thing, and what level of risk is worth taking. Because I think that, you know, again, if if you're, if your security mechanisms are preventing you from doing the thing that you're you set out to try to do, then your adversaries are already winning, and something probably needs to shift. Margaret 1:08:39 I really like that line. And so I feel like that's a decent spot, place to end on. Do. Do you have anything that you'd like to shout out? People can follow you on the internet? Or they shouldn't follow you on the internet? What? What do you what do you want to advocate for here? Elle 1:08:53 If you follow me on the internet, I'm so sorry. That's really all I can say. I'm, I am on the internet. I am a tire fire. I'm probably fairly easy to find based on my name, my pronouns and the things that I've said here today, and I can't recommend following my Twitter. Margaret 1:09:17 I won't put in the show notes then. Elle 1:09:19 I mean, you're welcome to but I can't advocate in good conscience for anyone to pay attention to anything that I have to say. Margaret 1:09:27 Okay, so go back and don't listen to the last hour everyone. Elle 1:09:31 I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Margaret 1:09:34 I am that's my favorite thing to do. Elle 1:09:36 I mean, you know, this is just like my opinion, you know? There are no leaders. We're all the leaders. I don't know. Do do do what you think is right. Margaret 1:09:55 Agreed. All right. Well, thank you so much. Elle 1:09:59 Thank you. I really appreciate it. Margaret 1:10:07 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, you should tell people about it by whatever means occurs to you to tell people about it, which might be the internet, it might even be in person, it might be by taking a walk, leaving your cell phones behind, and then getting in deep into the woods and saying," I like the following podcast." And then the other person will be like, "Really, I thought we were gonna make out or maybe do some crimes." But, instead you have told them about the podcast. And I'm recording this at the same time as I record the intro, and now the