Podcast appearances and mentions of Mark Vernon

The conviction that the natural world is obedient, adhering to laws, is a widespread assumption of modern science. But where did this idea originate and what beliefs does it imply? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the impact on science of the Elizabethan lawyer, Francis Bacon. His New Instrument of Thought, or Novum Organum, published in 1620, put laws at the centre of science and was intended as an upgrade on assumptions developed by Aristotle. But does the existence of mind-like laws of nature, somehow acting on otherwise mindless matter, even make sense? What difference is made by insights subsequent to Baconian philosophy, such as the discovery of evolution or the sense that the natural world is not machine-like but behaves like an organism? Could the laws of nature be more like habits? And what about the purposes of organisms, and creativity?

William Blake opens the third part of his epic poem, Jerusalem: the Emanation of the Giant Albion, with an astonishing remark. “He never can be a friend of the Human Race who is the Preacher of Natural Morality or Natural Religion.”The declaration is shocking because today, two hundred years since he first printed these lines, naturalistic explanations of morality and religion have become standard. Even amongst champions of Blake.But what did he mean? What did he propose as an alternative? And why might that matter now?An earlier version of this essay is in the current issue of Vala, the magazine of The Blake Society.Mark Vernon's new book is Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination - out in June 2025 (UK), September 2025 (US). Pre-order now!

There is undoubtedly a new spirit of interest in Christianity abroad in the presumed secular world. Some increases in church-going are even showing up in the stats. But what can be made of the curiosity? Is it straightforwardly to be welcomed? Are there dark sides to newfound enthusiasms?Elizabeth Oldfield is the author of Fully Alive and host of The Sacred Podcast. She has been engaging with the presence of Christianity and religion in society for many years, not least when she headed up the think tank Theos.Mark Vernon is the author of Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination amongst other books. His work as a psychotherapist draws him towards the inner significance of these changing times.The discussion ranges over the varieties of Christianity that people might encounter from the evangelical to the Orthodox. They explore how they have encountered shifts in attitude and ask how to discern what is going on. Questions of the huge range of responses to Jesus emerge as does the widely different ways in which people read the Bible. What is ours to judge? What might the Spirit be up to?For more on Ellzabeth's work see - https://www.elizabetholdfield.com/ For more on Mark's work see - https://www.markvernon.com/

In this episode, I am joined by Mark Vernon to discuss the relationship between spirituality, science, and meaning in the modern world. Mark explores how our conception of religion has narrowed to focus primarily on doctrines and morals rather than experiential dimensions, which is a relatively recent development in human history. Vernon describes how human spiritual intelligence evolved not merely as a survival mechanism but as a form of "niche exploration" that allowed humans to discover immaterial realities. He contrasts the dominant enlightenment epistemology of mastery and control with spiritual traditions that emphasize receptivity and participation. Throughout the conversation, Vernon weaves together insights from his background in physics, theology, philosophy, and psychotherapy to argue that reconnecting with our inner lives and recovering a sense of wonder might be essential for addressing our current meaning crisis. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube Mark Vernon is a psychodynamic psychotherapist, philosopher, and author who previously served as an Anglican priest. With a background spanning physics, theology, and ancient Greek philosophy, Vernon has dedicated his career to exploring the intersection of spirituality, science, and human meaning. He hosts regular dialogues with scientist Rupert Sheldrake, writes extensively on philosophical and spiritual topics, and maintains an active presence through various media platforms including YouTube and Substack. Vernon's diverse intellectual journey reflects his ongoing exploration of how head and heart can connect to address fundamental questions of human existence. You can check out his books here. Theology Beer Camp | St. Paul, MN | October 16-18, 2025 3 Days of Craft Nerdiness with 50+ Theologians & God-Pods and 600 new friends. ONLINE CLASS ANNOUNCEMENT: The Many Faces of Christ Today The question Jesus asked his disciples still resonates today: "Who do you say that I am?" Join our transformative 5-week online learning community as we explore a rich tapestry of contemporary Christologies. Experience how diverse theological voices create a compelling vision of Jesus Christ for today's world. Expand your spiritual horizons. Challenge your assumptions. Enrich your faith. As always, the class is donation-based (including 0), so head over to ManyFacesOfChrist.com for more details and to sign up! _____________________ Hang with 40+ Scholars & Podcasts and 600 people at Theology Beer Camp 2025 (Oct. 16-18) in St. Paul, MN. This podcast is a Homebrewed Christianity production. Follow the Homebrewed Christianity, Theology Nerd Throwdown, & The Rise of Bonhoeffer podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 80,000 other people by joining our Substack - Process This! Get instant access to over 45 classes at www.TheologyClass.com Follow the podcast, drop a review, send feedback/questions or become a member of the HBC Community. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Much of the modern world has become uncoupled from the transcendent in a cultural experiment Nietzsche called the death of God. But might this spiritual crisis prove to be a time of rebirth? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, recorded live at an event organised by the Temenos Academy, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the evolution of wisdom traditions from west and east alongside the great modern enterprise called science and its continuing development. As the materialist, progressive ideology that has dominated the sciences for two centuries wanes, and as scientific studies show that religious and spiritual practices have major benefits for physical and mental health, what insights might we cultivate, as we live in and through these times?

Much of the modern world has become uncoupled from the transcendent in a cultural experiment Nietzsche called the death of God. But might this spiritual crisis prove to be a time of rebirth? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, recorded live at an event organised by the Temenos Academy, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the evolution of wisdom traditions from west and east alongside the great modern enterprise called science and its continuing development. As the materialist, progressive ideology that has dominated the sciences for two centuries wanes, and as scientific studies show that religious and spiritual practices have major benefits for physical and mental health, what insights might we cultivate, as we live in and through these times?For more on the Temenos Academy - https://www.temenosacademy.orgFor more on Rupert - https://www.sheldrake.orgFor more on Mark - https://www.markvernon.com

A discussion with Jason Baxter, Nicholas Colloff and Mark Vernon.The Abolition of Man is a series of three lectures given by C.S. Lewis in defence of objective value, arguing that modernity has undermined our humanity by uncoupling intellect from instinct. With hearts divorced from minds, first the world empties of presence, then life empties of meaning and people become “men without chests”.That Hideous Strength is a fictionalised version of the abolition, exploring the impact of transhumanism, aggressive rationalism, absent gods, and an inability to contemplate and know reality as it is.Till We Have Faces also tells of a world in which humanity is veiled and power rules, though in which gods make unexpected appearances and humanity is restored by learning to bear the weight of being once more.How do these works account for today? What remedies do they offer? Why might we keep reading them?0:00 Introductions01:47 The core ideas of The Abolition of Man04:46 All truths cannot be relative!09:38 The need for an aesthetic education12:13 Owen Barfield on objectivity and subjectivity 20:02 Chivalry and recovering spiritual practices28:25 A time in which everything is real30:56 The core ideas in That Hideous Strength39:48 The uninvited powers of material times41:48 The need for wisdom communities44:25 Why the Arthurian weaves in the story?49:10 Learning about and learning from53:21 Lewis's violence and the eruption of power56:48 The core ideas in Till We Have Faces59:45 The retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche01:01:52 When truth is too much to bear01:04:07 The recovery of humanity and the face of God01:06:02 The value of myth and moving from the linear01:09:30 Remaking or merely copying? A thought on Notre Dame01:11:17 Emptying and the fullness of divine presence01:12:58 Jane and Mark in the bridal chamber01:15:35 When everything is the face of GodJason is Professor and Director of Center for Beauty and Culture, Benedictine College. For more - www.jasonmbaxter.comFor more on Nicholas Colloff - https://ncolloff.blogspot.comFor more on Mark Vernon - www.markvernon.com

Watch: https://youtu.be/_ywyQIFMtQEDarwinian evolution shapes modern biology, but the notion of evolution has a wider history, too. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore linear and cyclical conceptions of human and cosmic evolution and ask what they can mean in the modern world, where innovation and evolution appear to be escalating. They consider the significance of two main principles within evolution, that of diversity and creativity, and how these elements can be embraced. They also ask about the difficulty of talking about evolution today, given the presence of intelligent design and creationism. An inability to discuss evolution in a wider context is a loss because evolutionary theory itself is sophisticated and interestingly contested, both in the realm of biology but spirituality: the so-called evolution of consciousness. The discussion includes the ideas of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin and Owen Barfield, Karl Popper and Henri Bergson.

Darwinian evolution shapes modern biology, but the notion of evolution has a wider history, too. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore linear and cyclical conceptions of human and cosmic evolution and ask what they can mean in the modern world, where innovation and evolution appear to be escalating. They consider the significance of two main principles within evolution, that of diversity and creativity, and how these elements can be embraced. They also ask about the difficulty of talking about evolution today, given the presence of intelligent design and creationism. An inability to discuss evolution in a wider context is a loss because evolutionary theory itself is sophisticated and interestingly contested, both in the realm of biology but spirituality: the so-called evolution of consciousness. The discussion includes the ideas of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin and Owen Barfield, Karl Popper and Henri Bergson.For other dialogues - https://www.markvernon.com/talks

Francis Lucille is teaching of Advaita Vedanta who brings together nonduality with science, amongst other subjects, his past having been in physics. Here, he talks with Mark Vernon about the universality of consciousness and how that fits with modern physics, theories of consciousness and the inspiration of wisdom traditions.For more on Francis see - https://francislucille.comFor more on Mark see - https://www.markvernon.com/0:00 Francis's career in science and how that led him to nonduality10:05 From Krishnamurti to Jean Klein 13:59 The difference made.by quantum physics19:52 How pioneers. In quantum physics drew on eastern ideas22.39 The limits of science and where metaphysics begins32:11 Is there a science of consciousness?37:21 Consciousness as basic, matter as derivative39:06 Panpsychism and the thesis of emergence48:05 The difference between meaning and information53:13 The complexity of things and the simplicity of consciousness01:01:37 The One in ordinary things, everyday awareness01:04:41 Emanation in Plotinus, the dance of Parvati and Siva01:08:40 On being children of light in the gospels

What does it mean to be human, and how can one access one's innermost self? Robert Rowland Smith writes popular books about practical philosophy, including a memoir that discusses what he's learned from his relationships – as well as a career as an Oxford don, a strategic adviser and a personal coach, among other things…Our conversation explores the extent to which people can change, and how to get attuned to an inner alarm that reveals when it's necessary. We also talk about intuitive ways of knowing, the role of fate and how inherited patterns shape our lives. Along the way, we consider the importance of facing mortality, why it might be scary to experience awakening and how to find purpose by asking good questions.If you'd like to learn more about Robert's approach – including family constellations – he's running an online “retreat” from January 5 (available on-demand at other times). He's also co-host of regular philosophy slams, where he and Mark Vernon respond to audience prompts with impromptu ideas.

Forms are all around us: clouds, flowers, creatures, even systems of thought and logical relations. And yet the nature of forms is rarely part of the modern scientific conversation. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the importance of forms and how they work. The need for form to account for life as we know it has been eclipsed by the mechanical philosophy of modern science that turned instead to forces, extrinsic causes and abstract laws. But the case can be made that science needs to revisit the notion of forms. Rupert's own work draws much from that imperative. The existence of forms also matters in terms of explaining our relationship to others and the world around us. If the cosmos is more mind-like than matter-like than that means our sense of participation and communion is real. Indeed, it might be said that when we study and contemplate, our minds meet the intelligence implicit in all things, which itself arises from the divine intelligence that shapes existence itself.

Forms are all around us: clouds, flowers, creatures, even systems of thought and logical relations. And yet the nature of forms is rarely part of the modern scientific conversation. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the importance of forms and how they work. The need for form to account for life as we know it has been eclipsed by the mechanical philosophy of modern science that turned instead to forces, extrinsic causes and abstract laws. But the case can be made that science needs to revisit the notion of forms. Rupert's own work draws much from that imperative. The existence of forms also matters in terms of explaining our relationship to others and the world around us. If the cosmos is more mind-like than matter-like than that means our sense of participation and communion is real. Indeed, it might be said that when we study and contemplate, our minds meet the intelligence implicit in all things, which itself arises from the divine intelligence that shapes existence itself.

I was interviewed by philosopher and prolific author Mark Vernon on my work and journey for the Realisation Festival Podcast. Mark and I connected at the festival in Dorset and have since co-held an online space. We go on a wonderful journey through my work across myriad domains from the liminal web to dialogos, my journey with psychedelics and the understanding of healing they helped to yield. We closed exploring my cultural integration project 'Christianity Beyond Itself'. To follow my work join my substack www.culturepilgrim.substack.com To get tickets for the next Realisation Festival at St Giles House, Dorset. https://realisationfestival.com

Martin Shaw and Mark Vernon return for a second conversation following Martin's embrace of Orthodox Christianity. The first conversation, entitled The Mossy Face of Christ, can be found on my YouTube channel.They discuss what is happening with the apparent resurgence of interest in Christianity, not least in relation to Martin's new course, The Skin-Boat and the Star. How can we discern the times and best participate in it?They explore the legacy of Christianity that can be such a block for people today and how the withdrawal of faith in contemporary culture may be a precursor to a rediscovery. They ask about the different styles of Christianity that are emerging amongst the so-called New Christians and how to discern the spirits.Martin discusses the way in which his quest has not ceased but become more focused, transformed by unexpected depths. Mark asks about living in modern times and resisting the temptation to invoke a negative energy, but instead .They explore the teaching of Jesus and being in the world whilst not wholly of it, as well as subversive acts of beauty that bring light and levity to the gravity of the moment.For more on Martin Shaw see - http://drmartinshaw.com/For more on Mark Vernon see - https://www.markvernon.com/00:00 The unfolding of Martin's experience02:32 The Skin-Boat gathering06:44 Why Christianity puts people off10:50 Understanding participation15:07 Beauty and pinpricks of eternity20:57 Being in the world and not of if26:51 Political and spiritual power32:04 What are you going to stand for36:50 Finite life and infinite desire40:40 Deepening the quest not ending it41:39 The paths that lead to God44:41 The centrality of devotion49:01 Losing life to find it55:47 Theosis in the western tradition01:00:01 Mysticism and the Christianity of tomorrow01:05:25 Injecting joy into the machine01:10:10 The love that sees over horizons01:15:17 Why Jesus stunned people01:20:21 Dialogue and yearning for God

One of the premises of modern science is that nature is devoid of purposes. Instead, purposeless explanations for phenomena are sought. And the strategy has proved hugely productive. Except that allusions to purpose never quite fade from the scientific imagination. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the ways in which the natural world is indeed full of purposes, both at the level of the so-called inanimate, as well as in the living world, and the reality we know most immediately and best, namely our own lives and consciousness. The discussion ranges over a range of matters, from the growth of embryos to the attractive nature of gravity and the tendency towards order and beauty. An implication of the presence of purpose in nature and minds is a need to rethink phenomena such as matter and power. And there is an obvious reason that purpose keeps reappearing in scientific accounts, namely that purposes are present in all things. Mark's discussion of David Bentley Hart's book, All Things Are Full Of Gods, mentioned in the discussion can be found at his YouTube channel here - https://youtu.be/pRhzg7c41sE.------Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.Mark's latest book is...A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousnesshttp://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity?svd=91------Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations.  On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.https://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-sheldrake?svd=91

One of the premises of modern science is that nature is devoid of purposes. Instead, purposeless explanations for phenomena are sought. And the strategy has proved hugely productive. Except that allusions to purpose never quite fade from the scientific imagination. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the ways in which the natural world is indeed full of purposes, both at the level of the so-called inanimate, as well as in the living world, and the reality we know most immediately and best, namely our own lives and consciousness. The discussion ranges over a range of matters, from the growth of embryos to the attractive nature of gravity and the tendency towards order and beauty. An implication of the presence of purpose in nature and minds is a need to rethink phenomena such as matter and power. And there is an obvious reason that purpose keeps reappearing in scientific accounts, namely that purposes are present in all things. Mark's discussion of David Bentley Hart's book, All Things Are Full Of Gods, mentioned in the discussion can be found as an early post on this podcast.

In S5E3 I sit down with my friend and collaborator Dr. Mervat Abdel Nasser. Dr. Nasser has written psychological and philosophical commentaries on ancient Egyptian thought. In 2007, she took an early retirement from her job as consultant psychiatrist and senior lecturer at King's College and returned to Egypt to pursue her dream of founding the New Hermopolis - an Eco-village with the mission of harnessing Middle Egypt's heritage towards the cultural and economic development in the region of Minya, Egypt near the ruins of the ancient city of Hermopolis Magna. Dr. Nasser and myself are co-organizers of the Hermopolis symposium, hosted at her New Hermopolis village October 23rd to the 27th of this year, which will feature international scholars independent researchers and high-level practitioners in the fields of esotericism including Wouter Hanegraaff, Shannon Grimes, Charles Stang, Gregory Shaw, Mark Vernon, Aaron Cheak, Soledad Davies, Jaime Paul Lamb, P.D. Newman, Carl Hayden Smith, and many others. In addition to the on-site conference, the Arcanvm channel will be presenting a digital track as well, featuring digital presentations by Marlene Seven Bremner, Peter Mark Adams, Ronnie Pontiac, and others. Audiences can participate in the proceedings of the entirety of conference digitally by purchasing passes at the link below. Hermopolis Symposium DIGITAL passes: https://patreon.com/thenewhermopolisconference1/shop Mervat:https://newhermopolis.org https://hermopolis-foundation.org https://rubedo.press/mervat-nasser For all things Ike be sure to visit: https://ikebaker.com SUPPORT ARCANVM FOR $5/MONTH: https://patreon.com/arcanvm FOLLOW on Facebook: https://facebook.com/@arcanvvm FOLLOW on IG: @a.r.c.a.n.v.m #egypt #spirituality #philosophy --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/arcanvm/support

No one knows. Repeated experiments have failed to locate where memories are stored in the brain, casting doubt on the conventional assumption that memories are stored as material traces. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss various kinds of memory, from episodic memory to habits. They consider how memory is linked to emotion and place, drawing on insights from Aristotle to AN Whitehead. Rupert's own work has led to the theory of morphic fields, within which all self-organising systems dwell. They also ask about Indian ideas of memory and how that is related to ideas about reincarnation and the possibility that everything that exists lives, in some way, in the memory of God.

No one knows. Repeated experiments have failed to locate where memories are stored in the brain, casting doubt on the conventional assumption that memories are stored as material traces. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss various kinds of memory, from episodic memory to habits. They consider how memory is linked to emotion and place, drawing on insights from Aristotle to AN Whitehead. Rupert's own work has led to the theory of morphic fields, within which all self-organising systems dwell. They also ask about Indian ideas of memory and how that is related to ideas about reincarnation and the possibility that everything that exists lives, in some way, in the memory of God.

What has poetry to do with philosophy? Why might poetry particularly matter now? How did figures from Plato to Einstein value the poetic voice?Valentin Gerlier and Mark Vernon return for another conversation about the manner in which we humans are gifted with symbolic as well as cognitive imaginations. They ask why we keep returning to poets such as William Blake and William Shakespeare, how the wellspring of a civilisation is found in its mythos, and whether a literal age might be recovering the age of sense of transcendence that is also immanent.  In short, they ask why seeing a world in a grain of sand, and not just a grain of sand in a grain of sand, might matter.Their first conversation was released as Heaven in a Wild Flower.

Randomness and luck, fate and providence. How do these facets of life relate to one another? Or is everything, actually, mechanically determined with synchronicities, say, being no more than coincidences? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the ways in which philosophers and scientists, ancient and modern, have imagined and explored notions of causality and sympathy in nature, alongside fortune and calamities. The ideas of Aristotle and Boethius provide a striking background against which to consider more recent scientific work. Rupert also demonstrates how fields can influence seemingly random effects using a Galton Board - a remarkably profound analogue for, say, practices such as prayer.

Watch on YouTube https://youtu.be/_TZ-8RMPHM8Randomness and luck, fate and providence. How do these facets of life relate to one another? Or is everything, actually, mechanically determined with synchronicities, say, being no more than coincidences? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the ways in which philosophers and scientists, ancient and modern, have imagined and explored notions of causality and sympathy in nature, alongside fortune and theurgy in relation to the gods. The ideas of Aristotle and Boethius provide a striking background against which to consider more recent scientific work. Rupert also demonstrates how fields can influence seemingly random effects using a Galton Board - a remarkably profound analogue for, say, practices such as prayer.

At school, we learn that being alive is to possess certain functions, from respiration to reproduction. But what is life and why can the word “life” be used more widely than referring only to biological life? In the latest episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon consider the meaning of saying that stars have a lifecycle, and that rocks and atoms can be ascribed a biography, in that they undergo processes of becoming. They discuss A.N. Whitehead's argument that so-called inanimate objects need to be considered as organisms and that life must also include the experience of being alive, which is to say consciousness and mentality. The powers of nature and the connection of all life, not least in terms of the idea of Gaia, lead them to ask how God can be said to be the origin and sustainer of life. Asking what life is dramatically expands the notion of life and the awesome nature of being alive.00:00 Introduction00:26 Criteria of Life01:19 Life Beyond Biology02:26 Life Cycle of Stars03:03 Theological Perspectives on Life04:08 Greek Concepts of Life: Zoe and Bios06:18 Life in the Universe08:18 Gaia Hypothesis10:10 Atoms and Molecules as Life12:19 Panpsychism14:30 Life and Consciousness17:42 God and Life19:10 Creative Process and Life20:28 Diversity and Unity of Life26:42 Modern Mechanistic Materialism vs. Expanded View of Life32:57 Conclusion

At school, we learn that being alive is to possess certain functions, from respiration to reproduction. But what is life and why can the word “life” be used more widely than referring only to biological life? In the latest episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon consider the meaning of saying that stars have a lifecycle, and that rocks and atoms can be ascribed a biography, in that they undergo processes of becoming. They discuss A.N. Whitehead's argument that so-called inanimate objects need to be considered as organisms and that life must also include the experience of being alive, which is to say consciousness and mentality. The powers of nature and the connection of all life, not least in terms of the idea of Gaia, lead them to ask how God can be said to be the origin and sustainer of life. Asking what life is dramatically expands the notion of life and the awesome nature of being alive.

Einstein remarked that there was physics before Maxwell and physics after Maxwell, the difference being the introduction of field theory. So what difference did fields make and, more to the point, what are they? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore how electromagnetic, gravitational and quantum fields shape modern science. Together with Rupert's idea of morphic fields, which contain an inherent memory, they discuss how fields have revived Aristotle's notion of formal and final causes and look at the fact that fields aren't energetic or material causes. They draw on ancient notions of soul to ask how fields can be part of an expansive notion of science, which has long depended on invisible entities to understand nature. Fields as realities in themselves are rarely discussed by scientists, their nature hidden behind a fog of mathematics. But fields fascinated figures like Faraday and Maxwell and might fascinate us again.For more conversations with Rupert and Mark see https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttps://www.markvernon.com/talks

Einstein remarked that there was physics before Maxwell and physics after Maxwell, the difference being the introduction of modern field theory. So what difference did fields make and, more to the point, what are they? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore how electromagnetic and gravitational, quantum and morphic fields shape modern science. They ask whether fields are a way that mechanistic understandings of nature have revived Aristotle's notion of formal and final causes and look at the fact that fields aren't energetic or material causes. They draw on ancient notions of soul to ask how fields can be part of an expansive notion of science, which has long drawn on entities that aren't directly detectable to understand nature. Fields as realities in themselves are rarely discussed by scientists, the nature of fields hidden behind a fog of mathematics. But they fascinated figures like Faraday and Maxwell and might fascinate us again.

The everyday stuff called matter turns out to be both more fascinating and stranger than we usually assume. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just matter is, beginning with contemporary ideas from quantum physics, in which matter is frozen light, as the physicist David Bohm put it. They consider the relationship between matter and gravity, as well as matter and ancient notions of potentiality, which turn out to be surprising relevant today. The differences between quantity and quality offer another conversational thread, with the discussion also drawing in wider questions, such as the nature of matter within the philosophy of panpsychism, and also the etymological links between matter and mater, or mother, revealing factors about material of which most are unconscious today.------Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations.  On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.https://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-sheldrake?svd=85------Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.Mark's latest book is...A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousnesshttp://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity?svd=85

The everyday stuff called matter turns out to be both more fascinating and stranger than we usually assume. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just matter is, beginning with contemporary ideas from quantum physics, in which matter is frozen light, as the physicist David Bohm put it. They consider the relationship between matter and gravity, as well as matter and ancient notions of potentiality, which turn out to be surprising relevant today. The differences between quantity and quality offer another conversational thread, with the discussion also drawing in wider questions, such as the nature of matter within the philosophy of panpsychism, and also the etymological links between matter and mater, or mother, revealing factors about material of which most are unconscious today.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark seehttps://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttps://www.markvernon.com/talks

A couple of years back, Martin Shaw had a visionary experience that led him to Christianity. We talked about it as the Mossy face of Christ - https://youtu.be/8luN8bDDRBs?si=c7jHUt-Ih5xKlVWqSo it was great to talk again about what's been happening. Which is much. The conversation ranges over what might be happening now with Christianity, Martin's recent participation in the Symbolic World Summit, the strangeness, weirdness and terror of Christ, being in the world but not of it, and the importance of myths, stories and fairytales.We mentioned Martin's new course The Skin-Boat and the Star as a practical manifestation of what has been happening for him. For more on that see here - https://schoolofmyth.com/five-weekend-programme/For more on Mark's work see - https://www.markvernon.com0:00 The reviving of interest in Christianity2:53 Report from the Symbolic World Summit6:53 Christ, fairytales and reconnecting with the source14:21 How to keep Christianity strange21:33 From ideas to encounter24:11 Being in the world but not of the world29:08 Passions of the soul and Rowan Williams37:38 Knowing stories and inhabiting stories43:48 From persona to presence47:56 Good fruits not good works49:26 Martin's new course and the imaginative edge52:44 What puts people off Christianity?54:01 Proxies for the Spirit58:17 Limits and more, growth and depth01:04:21 Romanticism coming of age01:12:13 Jonathan Pageau, Malcolm Guite, Iain McGilchrist and others on the new course

Energy is a key organising principle in modern science, the conversation of energy being a grounding and universal law. But what is energy? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon examine the history of the idea and the word. In science, energy is a relatively recently notion, emerging in its current form in the 19th century, drawing much on mechanics. The word itself was coined by Aristotle, in the 4th century BCE, carrying a sense of vital actuality and living presence. That meaning is still remembered in Orthodox theology, which describes the energeia of God. The conversation ranges over the promiscuity of energy in the natural world to the spiritual notion of energy, including the subtle energies of the body. The implications of shaping the idea of energy through mechanical metaphors also has important ramifications, from the descriptions of economics and the efficacy of psychology to the experience of God. Further, the most recent physics argues that energy is not conserved after all as the universe expands.Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/rp3QRl23clI

Energy is a key organising principle in modern science, the conversation of energy being a grounding and universal law. But what is energy? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon examine the history of the idea and the word. In science, energy is a relatively recently notion, emerging in its current form in the 19th century, drawing much on mechanics. The word itself was coined by Aristotle, in the 4th century BCE, carrying a sense of vital actuality and living presence. That meaning is still remembered in Orthodox theology, which describes the energeia of God. The conversation ranges over the promiscuity of energy in the natural world to the spiritual notion of energy, including the subtle energies of the body. The implications of shaping the idea of energy through mechanical metaphors also has important ramifications, from the descriptions of economics and the efficacy of psychology to the experience of God. Further, the most recent physics argues that energy is not conserved after all as the universe expands.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark see:https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttp://www.markvernon.com/talks

How can Christianity address the climate crisis? Isn't the objectifying of nature and the drive to improve our lot a secular legacy of Christendom? And isn't individual conversion more or less irrelevant in a time of systemic crisis?I was delighted to be sent an essay by Gunnar Gjermundsen that asks these questions and more. His insights are wide-ranging, integrating, inspiring and challenging, focusing on a Christianity that is not so much moral as transformative, inviting us to consider again the sayings of Jesus, via theologians such as Maximus the Confessor and psychotherapists like Donald Winnicott.In this discussion we unpack his argument in broadly three moves.First, an analysis of current anxieties that, at heart, are to do with time. A linear view of history has fostered a hope of panicky escape, sacrificing the present for the future as a false substitute for eternity, with devastating consequences for ourselves and the world around us. The problem needs to be addressed at root, which comes in a second section exploring the misunderstanding of eschatology as an event to come and be feared, rather than an unfolding now, to be welcomed. We explore Jesus's teaching as well as how it came to be so profoundly misunderstood.The third section draws in psychological insights, particularly in terms of considering the schizoid, addictive and dread-filled nature of the modern psyche, and turns again to the Christian tradition and the remarkable notion of the kingdom of God that is near, and being born again.The apocalyptical has become a master metaphor for the contemporary imagination, inducing fatalism and denial. Christianity has a vision to undo this terror via the transformation of our consciousness and experience of time. The apocalyptic is not to come but is an unveiling in every moment, a theosis, of the eternal present.And we can live by that alternative.The essay we are discussing is Living on This Earth as in Heaven: Time and the Ecological Conversion of Eschatology, published in Modern Theology, online - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/moth.12930Gunnar Gjermundsen works in the Faculty of Theology, University of Oslo - https://www.tf.uio.no/english/people/aca/gunnargj/For more on Mark Vernon's work, see http://www.markvernon.com

Isaac Newton is best known for his theory of gravity. And yet, the great scientist also insisted: "the cause of gravity is what I do not pretend to know.” In other words, notions like gravity, and force in general, are deeply mysterious phenomena. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just what gravity might be. The conversation begins with a feature of gravity that is typically overlooked by physicists, namely that gravity has a speed. According to the physicist Tom van Flandern, the speed of gravity is at least **20 billion times faster than light**!https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/TheSpeedofGravity-WhattheExperimentsSay.htmThey consider how gravity might be linked to the notion of levity, a link that can be renewed again. Newton himself was inclined to regard gravity as the divine will in the cosmos and was also influenced by the belief in daemons, particularly the entity called Eros or love. These are go-betweens in the universe, in the case of Eros, attracting all things and securing the many as a whole. Panpsychism and final causes are other themes that arise. Contemplating the mysteries of modern science, often hidden in plain sight, leads naturally to deeply meaningful considerations about the nature of the world in which we live.------Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations.  On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.https://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-sheldrake?svd=84------Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.Mark's latest book is...A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousnesshttp://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity?svd=84

Isaac Newton is best known for his theory of gravity. And yet, the great scientist also insisted: "ye cause of gravity is what I do not pretend to know.” In other words, notions like gravity, and force in general, are deeply mysterious phenomena. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just what gravity might be. The conversation begins with a feature of gravity that is typically overlooked by physicists, namely that gravity has a speed which is far faster than the speed of light. They consider how gravity might be linked to the notion of levity, a link that can be renewed again. Newton himself was inclined to regard gravity as the divine will in the cosmos and was also influenced by the belief in daemons, particularly the entity called Eros or love. These are go-betweens in the universe, in the case of Eros, attracting all things and securing the many as a whole. Panpsychism and final causes are other themes that arise. Contemplating the mysteries of modern science, often hidden in plain sight, leads naturally to deeply meaningful considerations about the nature of the world in which we live.The paper Rupert mentioned, The Speed of Gravity, can be found here - https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/TheSpeedofGravity-WhattheExperimentsSay.htmFor more conversations between us seehttps://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttp://www.markvernon.com/talks

Environmental degradation caused by technological progress is in the news almost everyday. So can any sense be made of an ancient intuition that human beings are not just part of nature but have a distinctive and positive role to play in nature? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss issues from the significance of consciousness to cosmic emergence in order to explore a vision of humanity in nature that goes well beyond our life being the meaningless byproduct of random processes. Humanity contributes to the diversification and beautification of the natural world, even as monocrops undermine that enrichment, too. Alternatively, religious traditions add a layer of meaning to natural processes that science alone can't provide, from expressing divine creativity to returning that blessing in the praising of God. Panpsychism, strong emergence and Charles Darwin's appreciation of the excessiveness of nature are other themes in the conversation, making a case for humanity's place as participant in the remarkable abundance that surrounds us.

Environmental degradation caused by technological progress is in the news almost everyday. So can any sense be made of an ancient intuition that human beings are not just part of nature but have a distinctive and positive role to play in nature? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss issues from the significance of consciousness to cosmic emergence in order to explore a vision of humanity in nature that goes well beyond our life being the meaningless byproduct of random processes. Humanity contributes to the diversification and beautification of the natural world, even as monocrops undermine that enrichment, too. Alternatively, religious traditions add a layer of meaning to natural processes that science alone can't provide, from expressing divine creativity to returning that blessing in the praising of God. Panpsychism, strong emergence and Charles Darwin's appreciation of the excessiveness of nature are other themes in the conversation, making a case for humanity's place as participant in the remarkable abundance that surrounds us.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark see https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialoguesand http://www.markvernon.com/talks

Christmas risks losing its meaning not only because of the commercial frenzy but because of the way it is talked about in churches.In this conversation, Russell Jefford talks about his discovery of the understanding of the incarnation conveyed in the writings of the early church fathers. They were unknown to him as an evangelical Christian and have refreshed his love of Christianity now.Together with Mark Vernon, they consider the iconography of the nativity. Why is Jesus born in a cave? Is that a coffin rather than a manger? They consider phrases of three key figues in particular:St Nazianzus "He who Is, comes into being, and the uncreated is created" (Oration 38.13)St Irenaeus "He sanctified every age by the resemblance we have with him" (Against Heresies 2.22.4)St Athanasius "He became man that we might become God" (On the Incarnation 54)The humanification of God enables the deification of humanity. Salvation is thought of as recapitulation, the divine sanctifying humanity through the various stages of life. The work of atonement is the work of incarnation, as both are manifestations of God, grabbing our attention as to our true nature through the life of the body. For more on Russell's work and teaching days see https://ordinarytheology.com/For more on Mark's work see https://www.markvernon.com/

collaborative framework:afield produced by regular contributors manja ristić and mark vernon, entitled 'sound postcards from the centre of the periphery'. for a full playlist see https://frameworkradio.net/2023/11/868-2023-11-26/.

What is the role of love in public life? Can it have a place given the scrutiny faced by leaders and the processes of bureaucracies? Or is love what we need to face the huge challenges of today, from distrust of public institutions to the environmental crisis?Claire Gilbert is the author of several books, a fellow of Jesus College, Cambridge, has served on several public and advisory bodies, and is the Director of the Westminster Abbey Institute. In this conversation, we talk about soulfulness as well as morality in public life, for which Claire is convinced there is a deep yearning. We cover questions from how to design safe and inspiring places that allow people to ask about love of their work, to the role character, contemplation and vision.We ask about how fear, despair and forgiveness might be part of a more loving approach to public life, as well as reconsidering the nature of power, which can be compassionate and stimulating as well as coercive.This is part of series of conversations Mark is conducting as part of a project investigating how design might help nurture more loving relationships at a personal and social level.For more on Claire see - https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey-biographies/dr-claire-foster-gilbert

Constellations, also called family systems, is a way of visualising the dynamics of love that operate in any group that has to do with creativity or life. A constellation workshop brings people together to look at predicaments with which people are wrestling, be they personal or organisational. The goal is to find a design that releases and acknowledges the love that yearns to find a way forward, though can be thwarted or become stuck.In this conversation, Robert Rowland Smith and Mark Vernon, explore what in the constellations world is called the orders of love. They ask how love, because it manifests as a dynamic or spirit, is seen and fostered by rituals and gestures. The right distance between people may be as important as the right connection. The manner in which events and times are remembered or honoured can be crucial. The dialogue suggests that love won't be pinned down and that becoming more conscious and aligned with the field of love, within which we all live, is crucial. Seeing how this is so is not only expansive for the individual but vitalising for the whole. Such collaboration is aided by principles akin to principles of design and which are discovered by testing and exploration, and proven by the beauty and truth released.For more about Robert, including Simple Truths, https://www.robertrowlandsmith.comFor more about Mark http://www.markvernon.com

Do our minds reside solely inside our heads, or perhaps bodies? Or do they extend into the wider world, perhaps even reaching to the stars? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the extended mind theory, taking a lead from recent work of Rupert's on the sense of being stared at, and also the problems that contemporary science has with understanding vision. The discussion considers new research carried out by Rupert and others, as well as the theories of A.N. Whitehead. The way in which science since Maxwell has considered light as moving backwards as well as forwards in time is explored, alongside the way that William Blake described how we see, which itself fits the ancient understanding, that seeing is an active process of engagement, not a passive mode of reception.Rupert references two published papers. One is on the nature of visual perception, co-written with Alex Gomez-Marin, online here:https://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/The-Nature-of-Visual-Perception.pdfThe other is on directional scopaesthesia, co-written with Pamela Smart, online here:https://www.sheldrake.org/vision------Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations.  On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.https://www.sheldrake.org?svd=82------Dr Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist and writer with a rich academic background in physics, theology, and philosophy. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.Mark's latest book is...A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousnesshttp://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity?svd=82

Do our minds reside solely inside our heads, or perhaps bodies? Or do they extend into the wider world, perhaps even reaching to the stars? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the extended mind theory, taking a lead from recent work of Rupert's on the sense of being stared at, and also the problems that contemporary science has with understanding vision. The discussion considers new research carried out by Rupert and others, as well as the theories of A.N. Whitehead. The way in which science since Maxwell has considered light as moving backwards as well as forwards in time is explored, alongside the way that William Blake described how we see, which itself fits the ancient understanding, that seeing is an active process of engagement, not a passive mode of reception.Rupert references two published papers. One is on the nature of visual perception, co-written with Alex Gomez-Marin, online here - https://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/The-Nature-of-Visual-Perception.pdf. The other is on directional scopaesthesia, co-written with Pamela Smart, online here - https://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/Scopaestheia-and-Its-Implications-for-Theories-of-Vision.pdf.For more dialogues between Rupert and Mark see https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogues and https://www.markvernon.com/talks

Thinking carefully, not just apocalyptically, about AIs requires a combination of skills - technological, sociological, psychological, philosophical, organisational. So I was delighted to talk with Eve Poole, who is a rare individual capable of bringing all these elements into her work. Our central question was how to build AIs so as to design out risk and design in love. It turns out that the two elements are deeply connected.We began by thinking about the nature of the threat and opportunity. In her book, Robot Souls, Eve draws attention to the "junk code" that, ever since the Enlightenment, has been designed out of artificial thinking processes but which it is increasingly clear, needs to be designed back in. Quality decisions, let alone careful world-building, needs emotional, embodied and loving intelligence, alongside the purely transaction and rational.We consider how virtue ethics can inform the debate, and may do better than the purely utilitarian calculus that shapes things now. Similarly, we ask about the centrality of cooperation, too, as opposed to the competitive assumptions that tend to dominate. We think about how AIs are born in particular cultures and so reflect the cultures of technology companies and wider society.And we are never far from the deep question of the nature of intelligence, proposing that love and judgement are actually more central than reason and free will. For AIs to work in the real world, they will need those qualities. Therein lies hope.For more on Eve's book, Robot Souls, see https://www.routledge.com/Robot-Souls-Programming-in-Humanity/Poole/p/book/9781032426624For more on Mark's work see www.markvernon.com

Churches are in decline, certainly in the western world. People tend not to turn to a priest for spiritual insight or advice. But is a lived relationship with the sacred and wisdom traditions denuded as organised religion disappears? In this Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon talk about religious institutions for good and ill. Rupert picks up on a new book by Alison Milbank, Once and Future Parish, to ask how churches can maintain connection with the seasons, place and community, and speak to the whole of our humanity in its rituals and rites of passage. The conversation explores why many people are wary of organised religion, and are inclined to treat religion more as a threat than a visionary promise. The perils of a privatised spiritual questing are set alongside the paucity of contemporary church life, though if it can be hard to live with organised religion, it seems also hard to live fully without it.

Churches are in decline, certainly in the western world. People tend not to think to turn to a priest for spiritual insight or advice. But is a lived relationship with the sacred and wisdom traditions denuded as organised religion disappears? In this Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon talk about religious institutions for good and ill. Rupert picks up on a new book by Alison Milbank, Once and Future Parish, to ask how churches can maintain connection with the seasons, place and community, and speak to the whole of our humanity in its rituals and rites of passage. The conversation explores the wariness of organised religion, from its moralising and hierarchical manifestations, to its distorted message, inclined to treat religion more as a fearsome threat than a visionary promise. The perils of a privatised spiritual questing are set alongside the paucity of contemporary church life, though if it can be hard to live with organised religion, it seems also hard to live fully without it.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark see https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogues and http://www.markvernon.com/talks

Owen Barfield talked of an evolution of consciousness towards final participation. But what is that state or quality awareness? How does it relate to the life of Christ? How was it described by Rudolf Steiner? Can we see and know intimations of it now?In this second discussion with Landon Loftin and Max Leyf, we explore the ideas of freedom and individuality, modernity and language, kenosis and romanticism come of age to press Barfield's great insight and see whether we can help give it voice.For more on Landon and Max's book see https://wipfandstock.com/9781666736762/what-barfield-thought/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CLoftin%20and%20Leyf%20have%20provided,on%20his%20fellow%20Inklings%2C%20C.%20S.For more on Mark's book see http://www.markvernon.com/consciousness

Why do we love? Is love inevitably a foolhardy endeavour? Or does it lead to a knowledge of reality beyond reason?In this discussion, Robert Rowland Smith and Mark Vernon discuss the ideas of Freud and Lacan, Bowlby and Winnicott, who had differing ideas about the nature of love and where it leads.Is love the idealisation of another, which inevitably leads to frustration and loss? Is love the realisation of a wider reality which, without it, we would neither feel drawn to or be prepared to know?And why are love and suffering so intimately linked, so that strangely it promises our greatest fulfilment and worst fears?For more on Robert - https://www.robertrowlandsmith.comFor more on Mark - https://www.markvernon.com

Mysteries of the Deep Podcast, Chapter CXLIX by SUNA (@sunabass). Cover photo courtesy of Candace Price. Tracklist: 1. dy' meurth - Heavy Cloud 2. Shell Of A City (Excerpt) - Lisa Lerkenfeldt 3. Copper Lily - Concrete Colored Paint 4. Az erdő hangja - Rdei 5. Gladne sjenke / Hungry Shadows - Manja Ristić & Mark Vernon 6. Waning Mind's Eye - Pagan Red 7. The Wrong Platform (nothing stops here after 5) - Mark Vernon 8. One - Hems 9. Hold You To It - Leslie Keffer 10. Duration I - John McCowen 11. Rotation - Biosphere 12. Contraluz II (Economisti di Mare) - Émile Zener 13. Meld (Rrose Distillation) - LAIR