Mark Vernon - Talks and Thoughts

A live conversation with Mark Vernon, Katy Carr and Dexter Bentley from the Hello Goodbye Show.Who was William Blake? What might his music have sounded like? What did he say about the imagination? Why might he understand our predicament today?Mark Vernon and Katy Carr joined Dexter Bentley on Resonance FM to talk William Blake on Saturday 31st May 2025. Katy played six songs - her settings of the Introductions from the Songs of Innocence and also from the Songs of Experience, as well as The Lamb and TheTyger, and finally London and The Blossom.For more on Mark see - https://www.markvernon.com/For more on Katy see - https://katycarr.com/For more on the Hello Goodbye Show see https://hellogoodbyeshow.com/For more on the Idler -  https://www.idler.co.uk/Mark's book is Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination (out June 2025 in the UK, September 2025 in the US).

Saint Francis was born into a world in a panic. The stabilities of the feudal world had collapsed with the rise of mercantilism. The gap between rich and poor was unsustainable and a new underclass was tearing apart the fabric of society. Then, there were the looming presence of the Mongols to the east and the transformative impact of the Islamic empire to the south - both conquerors plunging Christian Europe into an existential crisis.Doomster prophets, ferocious disputes, wild hopes and messianic saviours were commonplace.So what did the man from Assisi constellate in the extremities of his way of life? Who was this figure, beyond the sentimental portrayal that can so easily eclipse his intense radicalism? This talk explores the discoveries made by his followers - the scientia experimentalist of Roger Bacon, William of Ockham and Duns Scotus whose Franciscanism embraced Aristotelianism. It asks how the contraries embraced by Francis and the impossible path he traced might much matter now.For more on Mark see - www.markvernon.comHis new book is Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination

The conviction that the natural world is obedient, adhering to laws, is a widespread assumption of modern science. But where did this idea originate and what beliefs does it imply? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the impact on science of the Elizabethan lawyer, Francis Bacon. His New Instrument of Thought, or Novum Organum, published in 1620, put laws at the centre of science and was intended as an upgrade on assumptions developed by Aristotle. But does the existence of mind-like laws of nature, somehow acting on otherwise mindless matter, even make sense? What difference is made by insights subsequent to Baconian philosophy, such as the discovery of evolution or the sense that the natural world is not machine-like but behaves like an organism? Could the laws of nature be more like habits? And what about the purposes of organisms, and creativity?

William Blake opens the third part of his epic poem, Jerusalem: the Emanation of the Giant Albion, with an astonishing remark. “He never can be a friend of the Human Race who is the Preacher of Natural Morality or Natural Religion.”The declaration is shocking because today, two hundred years since he first printed these lines, naturalistic explanations of morality and religion have become standard. Even amongst champions of Blake.But what did he mean? What did he propose as an alternative? And why might that matter now?An earlier version of this essay is in the current issue of Vala, the magazine of The Blake Society.Mark Vernon's new book is Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination - out in June 2025 (UK), September 2025 (US). Pre-order now!

There is undoubtedly a new spirit of interest in Christianity abroad in the presumed secular world. Some increases in church-going are even showing up in the stats. But what can be made of the curiosity? Is it straightforwardly to be welcomed? Are there dark sides to newfound enthusiasms?Elizabeth Oldfield is the author of Fully Alive and host of The Sacred Podcast. She has been engaging with the presence of Christianity and religion in society for many years, not least when she headed up the think tank Theos.Mark Vernon is the author of Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination amongst other books. His work as a psychotherapist draws him towards the inner significance of these changing times.The discussion ranges over the varieties of Christianity that people might encounter from the evangelical to the Orthodox. They explore how they have encountered shifts in attitude and ask how to discern what is going on. Questions of the huge range of responses to Jesus emerge as does the widely different ways in which people read the Bible. What is ours to judge? What might the Spirit be up to?For more on Ellzabeth's work see - https://www.elizabetholdfield.com/ For more on Mark's work see - https://www.markvernon.com/

Ibn ‘Arabi is arguably the greatest philosopher in the Islamic world, though controversial; Seal of the Mohammedan Saints, as he is known, alongside Shaykh al-Akbar, he is becoming more important again, especially against a backdrop of fundamentalism.Born into a noble family in Anadalusian, Moorish Spain, he adopted the Sufi way of life after a revelation. He was to leave Iberia and travel east across the Islamic empire. But what was his core teaching and understanding? What can he teach others drawn to a mystical participation in life?

The first in a series of talks I'll be posting in anticipation of my new book, Awake! William Blake and the Power of the Imagination, out in June/Sept (UK/US).Do consider pre-ordering! (Thanks: it really helps early sales and so bookshop notice.)“The best overall study of Blake I have encountered in a very long time. A joy to read, well worthy of its extraordinary hero,' says Rowan Williams.

The extraordinary spread of Islam after 632 - from Central Asia to North Africa in a century - reached Europe from the eighth century, generating issues still energising to this day. Not ones of religion, though, but of technology.Within a few generations, the devices of the new civilisation hit the Iberian peninsula: vertical axis windmills, the clocks of Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi, astrolabes.Anxiety about machines, remaining to the present say, was born. Were we becoming uncoupled from the cosmos? How might our existence relate to our essence? Can the human mind still fit the divine mind?But with the technology came ideas, those discussed and disputed by Al-Ghazali, Avicenna, Averroes, Thomas Aquinas - all drawing on “the first teacher”: Aristotle.Their questions about occasionalism, the eternity of the cosmos, and unified intelligence can help us now. These reflections reveal how existence flows from divine being, the momentary nature of time reflects eternity, many minds echo the one intelligence.Their work offers us imaginative, spiritual space to refind participation with spirit and God as the millennia-long story of the machine continues.

Owen Barfield was the genius Inkling, said CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien. But why does he so much matter today?They consider how Owen Barfield addresses the idea of secularism developed by Charles Taylor and why that might matter in a cultural moment that feels like a folk in the road. They speak personally of how Barfield touched them and why his insights might matter to the psychedelic renaissance.A central idea is that of polarity - moving beyond the dualisms that trap people, on the left and on the right, in a flatland mentality.They ask how Barfield's vision of final participation can be understood, even experienced, in language, in nature, with Indigenous traditions, in sacrament. They also consider how Rudolf Steiner, so important to Barfield, might be appreciated critically.Fundamental is the Christian insight that the transcendent is also immanent, the many are reflections of the one, and that humanity shares in divine purposes.For more on Mark, including his book on Barfield's understanding of Christianity - www.markvernon.comFor more on Ashton - https://ciis.academia.edu/ashtonkohlarnoldy0:00 Barfield's relevance today06:47 Monotheism and the singular self12:02 Encountering worlds of spirit20:26 The task of integration27:49 The ongoing Christian revelation32:34 Steiner and politics today44:03 The experience of polarity49:22 Barfield and ecology53:03 Taylor's interspace and imagination56: 29 The divine power of language01:01:08 Poetry and the evolution of consciousness01:06:54 The past in the present and the future01:11:09 Questions of identity01:16:44 The future orientation of Christianity01:21:09 Residual unprocessed positivism01:25:38 Critical readings of Steiner01:30:42 Concluding remarks

Much of the modern world has become uncoupled from the transcendent in a cultural experiment Nietzsche called the death of God. But might this spiritual crisis prove to be a time of rebirth? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, recorded live at an event organised by the Temenos Academy, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the evolution of wisdom traditions from west and east alongside the great modern enterprise called science and its continuing development. As the materialist, progressive ideology that has dominated the sciences for two centuries wanes, and as scientific studies show that religious and spiritual practices have major benefits for physical and mental health, what insights might we cultivate, as we live in and through these times?For more on the Temenos Academy - https://www.temenosacademy.orgFor more on Rupert - https://www.sheldrake.orgFor more on Mark - https://www.markvernon.com

A discussion with Jason Baxter, Nicholas Colloff and Mark Vernon.The Abolition of Man is a series of three lectures given by C.S. Lewis in defence of objective value, arguing that modernity has undermined our humanity by uncoupling intellect from instinct. With hearts divorced from minds, first the world empties of presence, then life empties of meaning and people become “men without chests”.That Hideous Strength is a fictionalised version of the abolition, exploring the impact of transhumanism, aggressive rationalism, absent gods, and an inability to contemplate and know reality as it is.Till We Have Faces also tells of a world in which humanity is veiled and power rules, though in which gods make unexpected appearances and humanity is restored by learning to bear the weight of being once more.How do these works account for today? What remedies do they offer? Why might we keep reading them?0:00 Introductions01:47 The core ideas of The Abolition of Man04:46 All truths cannot be relative!09:38 The need for an aesthetic education12:13 Owen Barfield on objectivity and subjectivity 20:02 Chivalry and recovering spiritual practices28:25 A time in which everything is real30:56 The core ideas in That Hideous Strength39:48 The uninvited powers of material times41:48 The need for wisdom communities44:25 Why the Arthurian weaves in the story?49:10 Learning about and learning from53:21 Lewis's violence and the eruption of power56:48 The core ideas in Till We Have Faces59:45 The retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche01:01:52 When truth is too much to bear01:04:07 The recovery of humanity and the face of God01:06:02 The value of myth and moving from the linear01:09:30 Remaking or merely copying? A thought on Notre Dame01:11:17 Emptying and the fullness of divine presence01:12:58 Jane and Mark in the bridal chamber01:15:35 When everything is the face of GodJason is Professor and Director of Center for Beauty and Culture, Benedictine College. For more - www.jasonmbaxter.comFor more on Nicholas Colloff - https://ncolloff.blogspot.comFor more on Mark Vernon - www.markvernon.com

Darwinian evolution shapes modern biology, but the notion of evolution has a wider history, too. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore linear and cyclical conceptions of human and cosmic evolution and ask what they can mean in the modern world, where innovation and evolution appear to be escalating. They consider the significance of two main principles within evolution, that of diversity and creativity, and how these elements can be embraced. They also ask about the difficulty of talking about evolution today, given the presence of intelligent design and creationism. An inability to discuss evolution in a wider context is a loss because evolutionary theory itself is sophisticated and interestingly contested, both in the realm of biology but spirituality: the so-called evolution of consciousness. The discussion includes the ideas of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin and Owen Barfield, Karl Popper and Henri Bergson.For other dialogues - https://www.markvernon.com/talks

Francis Lucille is teaching of Advaita Vedanta who brings together nonduality with science, amongst other subjects, his past having been in physics. Here, he talks with Mark Vernon about the universality of consciousness and how that fits with modern physics, theories of consciousness and the inspiration of wisdom traditions.For more on Francis see - https://francislucille.comFor more on Mark see - https://www.markvernon.com/0:00 Francis's career in science and how that led him to nonduality10:05 From Krishnamurti to Jean Klein 13:59 The difference made.by quantum physics19:52 How pioneers. In quantum physics drew on eastern ideas22.39 The limits of science and where metaphysics begins32:11 Is there a science of consciousness?37:21 Consciousness as basic, matter as derivative39:06 Panpsychism and the thesis of emergence48:05 The difference between meaning and information53:13 The complexity of things and the simplicity of consciousness01:01:37 The One in ordinary things, everyday awareness01:04:41 Emanation in Plotinus, the dance of Parvati and Siva01:08:40 On being children of light in the gospels

Mysticism is a modern word, as Simon Critchley discusses in his tremendous new book, On Mysticism. And its novelty is not a happy intervention in the history of mystics and their significance, Fundamental aspects of the insights pursued by figures such as Mother Julian and Meister Eckhart are obscured by the focus on peak or exceptional experiences. Our discussion seeks to gain a sense of recovery.We dwell on Mother Julian, in particular, and her idea about sin and suffering, weal and woe, and what she really meant by all shall be well.We think about the role of surrender in psychotherapy, writing and music, and the role of what Simone Weil called “decreation”.We ask about how philosophy might move on from “bloodless critique” to “watering flowers”.I think On Mysticism is a great book. It manifests the attention that it advocates and the revelations that come with active waiting.For more on Simon's book see - https://profilebooks.com/work/on-mysticism/For more on my forthcoming book on William Blake see - https://www.markvernon.com/books/awake-william-blake-and-the-power-of-the-imagination 0:00 What is mysticism, what is it not?12:02 The role of experience in mysticism23:49 Mother Julian on hazelnuts35:57 Mysticism and psychotherapy41:09 Mother Julian's truly radical theology45:58 Universalism and the mystical way57:40 Selfhood and surrender01:12:57 Socrates the mystic and modern philosophy

Nick Cave and Tom Holland discussed Christianity in an event organised by Unherd entitled In Search of Wild Gods on Thursday 9th January 2025. Chaired by Freddie Sayers, the conversation revolved around whether and why there is renewed interest in Christianity. Tom Holland's book Dominion has become a staple of learned comment, with its thesis that pretty much all the values that shape our society are Christian values. Nick Cave is currently on a global tour with tremendous, joyous, hard won songs conveying a distinctly revival feel. But are we in a culturally significant moment? The answers they gave are much worth considering. What do they find in church? What do they not want to find? What is about the weird and wonderful that so appeals to Tom Holland? What is about the mystical and inexpressible that attracts Nick Cave? The discussion brought little comfort for Christians who seek success by numbers or ecclesiastics hoping a panic about cultural Christianity will save the church. Rather, both Cave and Holland point to a kind of Christianity that opens onto the unknown, inspires the imagination, and enlarges the capacities of the human soul. 0:00 Why Nick Cave went back to church 6:15 How Nick Cave imagines God 9:30 Tom Holland's love of the weird 14:23 Holland's thesis about Christian values 17:10 Is there a Christian revival underway? 23:28 Christianity at its most compelling 28:13 Music as akin to religious experience

Sermon One (in Walshe, Complete Mystical Works) has become known as capturing the essence of Meister Eckhart's thought. “Here, in time, we are celebrating the eternal birth which God the Father bore and bears unceasingly in eternity, because this same birth is now born in time, in human nature.” And why does this lofty thought matter? “What does it avail me that this birth is happening, if it does not happen in me? That it should happen in me is what matters.”Eckhart, therefore, offers a corrective to the way Christianity and indeed Christmas is usually articulated today. Where does this birth take place? Not in Bethlehem, not in a stable, not around 4BC, not even from Mary, but primarily “in the very purest, loftiest, subtlest part that the soul is capable of”.Only, is this itself not only too rarefied a form of Christianity, but one inadequate to our times, in denial of moral imperatives or simply a gospel of spiritual bypassing?In fact, precisely the opposite is the case. Without that birth of the Word in the soul, Christianity's moral meaning is lost, its injunctions become pathways to demoralisation, with the happiness promised transitory or elusive.Eckhart, therefore, has crucial things to say to a church dedicated to filling people up with experiences and demands, as well as a time keen on practices that miss the stillness and silence he argues is fundamental.Rather, alongside the author of The Cloud of Unknowing and Mother Julian, Eckhart preaches the direct and easy path, that depends not on our efforts but on a capacity to not know and stay before the ground from which the Word is born.Unity with God is the purpose and promise of life - the secret that I feel is regularly absent in presentations of Christianity, though so much sought and needed.

Forms are all around us: clouds, flowers, creatures, even systems of thought and logical relations. And yet the nature of forms is rarely part of the modern scientific conversation. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the importance of forms and how they work. The need for form to account for life as we know it has been eclipsed by the mechanical philosophy of modern science that turned instead to forces, extrinsic causes and abstract laws. But the case can be made that science needs to revisit the notion of forms. Rupert's own work draws much from that imperative. The existence of forms also matters in terms of explaining our relationship to others and the world around us. If the cosmos is more mind-like than matter-like than that means our sense of participation and communion is real. Indeed, it might be said that when we study and contemplate, our minds meet the intelligence implicit in all things, which itself arises from the divine intelligence that shapes existence itself.

The new issue of VALA, the magazine of the Blake Society, is all about God. I've an article in it on Blake's mystical knowledge of God. "I am in you, you are in me, mutual in love divine."Blake could hardly have been stronger in his views that naturalistic explanations for religion, and what would now be called non-real theologies, are inadequate - and, indeed, insufficient in accounting for the human imagination and yearning for the infinite.Have a listen to the talk on what is misunderstood about Blake's view of God. And then read the article for why he thought non-theistic humanisms just won't do! You can download VALA here - https://blakesociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/VALA-5.pdfMy piece is entitled, "Enemies of the Human Race".

The resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury has highlighted the horrendous nature of abuse in the church and also the church's difficulties in dealing with these individuals. But is focusing on individuals enough or trying to address these matters through safeguarding and moral injunctions?Those elements are no doubt necessary. But I think also not sufficient. Recent events have reminded me of the extreme naivety around sex that exists in conservative Evangelical circles. And no doubt in other contexts as well.That can conceal deviant behaviour but is also a failure to understanding the nature of gospel, in my view.In these thoughts, I explore how in mystical Christian traditions, as well as those with an interest in inner life and the path to God, the erotic is understood as a key mode of awakening and energy. For if sex is about wanting to have and be had by another, that is but a reflection of the yearning to be one with God, the true promise of the gospel: “oneing” with the divine, as Mother Julian and the author of the Cloud of Unknowing put it.I turn to the insights of Plato, Origen, Dante and William Blake to draw out these themes. And also consider the parables of Jesus and his encounters with various individuals in the gospels as expressions of this deeper yearning, which he seems to have released in them and which might be foster in us, too - with discernment, honesty and wisdom.0:00 My experience of Christian evangelical camps2:50 Sex as a symptom of erotic desire for God6:05 Plato's insights about the body and why that is discarded11:09 Origen on God's kisses14:09 The mystics understanding of “Onening”15:05 Dante's transformation of his desire for Beatrice17:05 Blake on the erotic discovery that all things are holy21:05 The erotic in the gospels and the notion of philia21:40 Jesus's encounters and his parables as desire for God29:26 The abuse crises call for a lost Christianity

Martin Shaw and Mark Vernon return for a second conversation following Martin's embrace of Orthodox Christianity. The first conversation, entitled The Mossy Face of Christ, can be found on my YouTube channel.They discuss what is happening with the apparent resurgence of interest in Christianity, not least in relation to Martin's new course, The Skin-Boat and the Star. How can we discern the times and best participate in it?They explore the legacy of Christianity that can be such a block for people today and how the withdrawal of faith in contemporary culture may be a precursor to a rediscovery. They ask about the different styles of Christianity that are emerging amongst the so-called New Christians and how to discern the spirits.Martin discusses the way in which his quest has not ceased but become more focused, transformed by unexpected depths. Mark asks about living in modern times and resisting the temptation to invoke a negative energy, but instead .They explore the teaching of Jesus and being in the world whilst not wholly of it, as well as subversive acts of beauty that bring light and levity to the gravity of the moment.For more on Martin Shaw see - http://drmartinshaw.com/For more on Mark Vernon see - https://www.markvernon.com/00:00 The unfolding of Martin's experience02:32 The Skin-Boat gathering06:44 Why Christianity puts people off10:50 Understanding participation15:07 Beauty and pinpricks of eternity20:57 Being in the world and not of if26:51 Political and spiritual power32:04 What are you going to stand for36:50 Finite life and infinite desire40:40 Deepening the quest not ending it41:39 The paths that lead to God44:41 The centrality of devotion49:01 Losing life to find it55:47 Theosis in the western tradition01:00:01 Mysticism and the Christianity of tomorrow01:05:25 Injecting joy into the machine01:10:10 The love that sees over horizons01:15:17 Why Jesus stunned people01:20:21 Dialogue and yearning for God

One of the premises of modern science is that nature is devoid of purposes. Instead, purposeless explanations for phenomena are sought. And the strategy has proved hugely productive. Except that allusions to purpose never quite fade from the scientific imagination. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the ways in which the natural world is indeed full of purposes, both at the level of the so-called inanimate, as well as in the living world, and the reality we know most immediately and best, namely our own lives and consciousness. The discussion ranges over a range of matters, from the growth of embryos to the attractive nature of gravity and the tendency towards order and beauty. An implication of the presence of purpose in nature and minds is a need to rethink phenomena such as matter and power. And there is an obvious reason that purpose keeps reappearing in scientific accounts, namely that purposes are present in all things. Mark's discussion of David Bentley Hart's book, All Things Are Full Of Gods, mentioned in the discussion can be found as an early post on this podcast.

The 1500th anniversary of the death of Boethius more than likely falls in 2024. He asks a key question: how to find true, lasting, reliable happiness?His answer, The Consolation of Philosophy, was a mediaeval bestseller, massively influencial, and is also very readable.So what do Boethius and, in particular, Lady Philosophy tell us?

All Things Are Full Of Gods is David Bentley Hart's philosophical case for an idealist and theist understanding of consciousness, understood as an intertwining of mind, language and life. As he puts it: “Mind and life, and language too, are possibly only by way of a kind of “downward causation” that informs their “upward” evolution in particular beings.”The book is also a careful debunking of materialist alternative explanations such as that mind emerges from matter, that consciousness is an illusion, or that consciousness doesn't really exist at all; it is a careful examination of everything from eliminativism to integrated information theory, from the ideas of Daniel Dennett to those of Philip Goff.Personally, I also hugely valued the book because it is, in a way, therapeutic. A nihilist cosmos has become default and it is not only intolerable to live in, it is gaslighting. A thought or experience is only possible because we have capacities for attention and intention, desire and perception, communication and participation - and following those qualities through, leads to the realisation that consciousness is not born in us, but that we are born in consciousness.As on of his characters, Psyche, puts it: the mind's “transcendental preoccupation with an infinite horizon of intelligibility that, for want of a better word, we should call God; and that the existence of all things is possible only as the result of an infinite act of intelligence that, once again, we should call God.”David Bentley Hart's repeated point, as his interlocutors propose and take apart the materialist explanations, is that everything we might experience explodes with meanings. That is what mind does, in response to the life within which it is immersed.That said, the book ends on a downbeat note. Psyche hopes the we humans “might yet learn to know themselves in a new way as spiritual beings immersed in a world of spirit, rather than machines of consumption inhabiting a machine of production, and remember that which lies deepest within themselves: living mind, the divine ground of consciousness and life, participating in an infinite act of thought and communication, dwelling in a universe full of gods and full of God.” The book is, of course, an invitation and nudge to do so.

No one knows. Repeated experiments have failed to locate where memories are stored in the brain, casting doubt on the conventional assumption that memories are stored as material traces. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss various kinds of memory, from episodic memory to habits. They consider how memory is linked to emotion and place, drawing on insights from Aristotle to AN Whitehead. Rupert's own work has led to the theory of morphic fields, within which all self-organising systems dwell. They also ask about Indian ideas of memory and how that is related to ideas about reincarnation and the possibility that everything that exists lives, in some way, in the memory of God.

What Socrates taught is, of course, the wrong question. For, if there is one thing that Plato is quite clear about, it is that Socrates taught nothing. Something else is going on when you encounter this figure. So what is it?In this talk I look first at common errors concerning Plato, such as that he pitched body against soul or thought poets were best banned. Other mistakes include treating his philosophy as a training in eudaimonia and reading his dialogues as stages in his philosophical development - the early ones being close to the historical Socrates, the middle ones being the mature Plato, the late ones being the disillusioned Plato. Similarly, Socrates did not seek definitions.The irony, given the sensitivity to this charge often from philosophers who misread Plato, is that this is a colonial reading of Plato. Scholars like Julia Annas have shown that reading Plato changed during the period of the British empire, when texts like Plato's Republic came to be treated as a manifesto for young minds in public schools being preparing to rule the world. Before that, Plato Plato was understood not to have a message but instead a path. Roughly speaking, the aporetic dialogues - the ones that end in radical uncertainty - offer a preparation in the form of an undoing. Then, next, into that space, the visionary dialogues speak. I'm indebted to the scholar Sara Ahbel-Rappe for so clearly stating that Socrates stands for a mode of being, thereby imparting a taste for it, stirring a love of it. Socrates can't give that presence, because it is already within you. This awareness actually already belongs to us, and we sense a distant yearning for it because of feeling separate from it, through ignorance or forgetting. The way back is to clear the space that makes us more ready to know it once more.This is the meaning of the message Socrates received from the Delphic oracle: knowing yourself means knowing yourself, at base, to know nothing because all your theories or assumptions or certainties will turn out to be limited or straightforwardly wrong. Take that on board and then, regarding yourself as poor, come to know the richness of life, which is not eudaimonistic but rather theotic: a participation by contemplation, or theoria, in God.That divine end, stressing the inadequacy of an isolated sense of our humanity, must be the fundamental reason why Plato is so widely dissed. He ready does offend, though in Socrates saw why that disquiet is so wonderfully worth undergoing.

What has poetry to do with philosophy? Why might poetry particularly matter now? How did figures from Plato to Einstein value the poetic voice?Valentin Gerlier and Mark Vernon return for another conversation about the manner in which we humans are gifted with symbolic as well as cognitive imaginations. They ask why we keep returning to poets such as William Blake and William Shakespeare, how the wellspring of a civilisation is found in its mythos, and whether a literal age might be recovering the age of sense of transcendence that is also immanent.  In short, they ask why seeing a world in a grain of sand, and not just a grain of sand in a grain of sand, might matter.Their first conversation was released as Heaven in a Wild Flower.

Just Stop Oil and the imprisonment of Roger Hallam and others has provoked an outcry, on both sides of the dispute. And the heightened emotions have made me think. What's going on here? What is at stake?I suspect that what's being missed is something fundamental to human society and how we participate in a wider environment, and that can be discerned more fully by considering the true nature of freedom of speech.I draw on a talk given by Joseph Milne at the excellent Temenos Academy. The archive of talks can be found here - https://www.temenosacademy.org/main-lecture-archive/The approach is to consider what freedom of speech meant to our ancestors, so as to cast a light on the present. Aristotle's thoughts in the Politics is key, as speech for him is what makes human society - speech understood as a sharing the wider rationality and intelligence of the animate cosmos.Justice, then, is an exercise in the bonds of friendship, which is very different from an exercise in rights and the will to power. The limits of social contract theories, the mainstay of modern understandings, are on display. And what we need to recover are other ways of speaking freely - modes of dialogue and discourse that aren't primarily about proposition or facts, but commitments, relationships, devotions, celebrations.

Randomness and luck, fate and providence. How do these facets of life relate to one another? Or is everything, actually, mechanically determined with synchronicities, say, being no more than coincidences? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon discuss the ways in which philosophers and scientists, ancient and modern, have imagined and explored notions of causality and sympathy in nature, alongside fortune and calamities. The ideas of Aristotle and Boethius provide a striking background against which to consider more recent scientific work. Rupert also demonstrates how fields can influence seemingly random effects using a Galton Board - a remarkably profound analogue for, say, practices such as prayer.

At one level, Blake is clearly Christian. It's even trivial to say so. And yet, his identification with Jesus is often sidelined, even written out, of accounts of the poet's work today.There are many reasons for this neglect: an understandable disillusionment with Christianity; the replacement of participative Christianity with cultural Christianity and its stress on moral law; the rise of atheism in the 19th century; the colonisation of literary studies with secular assumptions.But Blake is quite clear: without the divine vision, focused on Jesus the imagination and the centrality of the continual incarnation, the golden string he offers us today, will not lead to heaven's gate.So what type of Christianity does he champion? How does he communicated it? And why is it still so needed, 200 years on.This talk was originally given to the Blake Society.0:00 Introduction0:47 The centrality of a continual incarnation6:00 His links with Orthodoxy and mystical Christianity9:44 The place of Jesus11:31 Transfiguration as a foretaste of Eternity12:34 The divinity of the woman caught in adultery 14:36 Jesus in the poem Jerusalem16:00 "I have power to raise from death"18:50 The breath divine or Spirit in Blake19:58 Union with Jesus21:25 The purpose of forgiveness24:00 The meaning of self-annihilation27:54 Inspired by the Gita29:31 A commodious Christianity33:26 The failure of naturalism and the cosmos as a closed system38:34 The inhumanity of atheistic humanism40:33 Mystical Christianity and participation with nature44:09 Ethical Christianity divides: religion hid in war46:53 "Thy own humanity learn to adore". Restoring humanism49:18 "There is a moment in each day". Blake's apocalypse is now

Three “trans” issues seem to be proxies for vision in contemporary politics, feeding the sense of despair and disillusion.Trans activism, which is not the same as trans pathology.Transhumanising, the techno-utopian dream of tomorrow.Transitioning the economy, moving from extractive consumption.All three  are about qualities of relationship:- to our bodies- to our minds- to the rest of the natural world.And I wonder if all three are missing a common element: an understanding of soul.I draw on thoughts made by Rowan Williams at the Realisation Festival 2024.My previous thoughts on disillusionment in politics can be found in my feed, too, looking at Plato on beauty, Aristotle on ethics, Jesus on being in the world but not of it, Dante on civilisational decline, Blake on abstraction, and Barfield on literalism.

There is a link between rising levels of mental-ill health and political disillusionment. Feeling cut off is not just an economic and psychological problem, but is a symptom of a wider alienation arising from modern consciousness.Owen Barfield argued that contemporary political problems are fundamentally due to estrangement not only from others but from ourselves, due to a loss of soul and spirit to materialism and literalism.As Carl Jung put it, the gods have become diseases – diseases of the collective as well as individual psyche. The pre-political must address this crisis of anthropology if politics is to be restored.This is the sixth thought in which I've turned to a guide to illuminate the overwhelming feeling of malaise in this democratic year.Look at others on my YouTube channel: Plato on beauty, Aristotle on ethics, Jesus on being in the world but not of it, Dante and civilisational decline, and William Blake on the rise of abstraction.

William Blake lived during the period in which the modern world was born. A prophet, he detected the tendencies that now powerfully shape our age. The love of abstraction was high on his list of troubles.Such generalisations profoundly shape politics today. Politicians sell themselves on whether they will boost the economy, drive up growth, fight inflation, and I think the rhetoric is itself alienating, dumbing, dreary. Vision departs, imagination declines, disillusionment becomes the norm.Accept for when it doesn't - hence the rise of popularism, too.Abstractions infect the arts and humanities, as well. They have become a way of life. So what is Blake's analysis?

The new movie Freud's Last Session is well worth a watch, particularly if either man is of interest.The issues you might expect are aired between them, not least belief in God. But also the more shadowy sides to their lives - Lewis's relationship with Janie Moore, Freud's with his daughter Anna.I enjoyed it, though also wondered if they might have discussed other things and found common ground.There's more about the film here - https://www.sonyclassics.com/film/freudslastsession

I've been thinking about politics and disillusionment that seems most characteristic of now, in the West at least, and thinking about the prepolitcal  - what politics needs to work well.I've thought about Plato on beauty and Aristotle on ethics in previous posts.Now a third guide, Jesus on... which isn't immediately easy to say. And that's the point.Some would say that Jesus and politics is easy to define.- a preference for the poor- the prosperity gospel- or Christian exceptionalism and oppressive regimes.But the heart of Jesus and politics is not in practical policies or polities, I believe. He was in the world but not of the world. He stood for something more than was immediately obvious or practical He constantly acted so as to respond to the moment but so as to allow more to come in.That was why he talked of the kingdom that is near, revising apocalyptic expectations and ushering the transformation of the self.I mentioned David Lloyd Dusenbury's book, I Judge No One - see here https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/i-judge-no-one/And my book, A Secret History of Christianity - see here https://www.markvernon.com/books/a-secret-history-of-christianity

At school, we learn that being alive is to possess certain functions, from respiration to reproduction. But what is life and why can the word “life” be used more widely than referring only to biological life? In the latest episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon consider the meaning of saying that stars have a lifecycle, and that rocks and atoms can be ascribed a biography, in that they undergo processes of becoming. They discuss A.N. Whitehead's argument that so-called inanimate objects need to be considered as organisms and that life must also include the experience of being alive, which is to say consciousness and mentality. The powers of nature and the connection of all life, not least in terms of the idea of Gaia, lead them to ask how God can be said to be the origin and sustainer of life. Asking what life is dramatically expands the notion of life and the awesome nature of being alive.

Disillusionment with politics is probably the most obvious feature of the current mood. This is, in part, because politics has collapsed onto anxiety about material improvement and lost sight of much more. In a secular society in which this facet of wellbeing is increasingly hard to deliver, politics appears therefore to be failing.So now is a good moment to consider what is sometimes called the pre-political - the more that politics needs.A second thought reaches back to Aristotle who asked about the relationship between ethics and politics. He agreed that democracy is the best political system but also that it isn't self-justifying. The deeper question of why it is the most "friendly" polity needs to be asked.But there is a problem with ethics, today. It has been weaponised, used to divide, deploy to stop thinking rather than encourage an engagement with the muddle of life. Ethics has become part of the disillusionment, I think.So in this thought, I ask why and what alternatives there might be. Which is where Aristotle can be a guide.

Disillusionment with politics is probably the most obvious feature of the current mood. This is, in part, because politics has collapsed onto anxiety about material improvement and lost sight of much more. In a secular society in which this facet of wellbeing is increasingly hard to deliver, politics appears therefore to be failing.So now is a good moment to consider what is sometimes called the pre-political - the more that politics needs.And a first thought comes from Plato, who would highlight the matter of beauty. He felt that if you lose touch with that, you lose touch with too much, and a loveless, ugly society would follow.Why does beauty matter? How come it is so unfashionable now, even embarrassing? What is it to be educated in beauty? Where can it be found?

Einstein remarked that there was physics before Maxwell and physics after Maxwell, the difference being the introduction of field theory. So what difference did fields make and, more to the point, what are they? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore how electromagnetic, gravitational and quantum fields shape modern science. Together with Rupert's idea of morphic fields, which contain an inherent memory, they discuss how fields have revived Aristotle's notion of formal and final causes and look at the fact that fields aren't energetic or material causes. They draw on ancient notions of soul to ask how fields can be part of an expansive notion of science, which has long depended on invisible entities to understand nature. Fields as realities in themselves are rarely discussed by scientists, their nature hidden behind a fog of mathematics. But fields fascinated figures like Faraday and Maxwell and might fascinate us again.For more conversations with Rupert and Mark see https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttps://www.markvernon.com/talks

To read the essay, go to Aeon magazine's website, or https://aeon.co/essays/in-the-beginning-there-was-love-we-can-move-with-its-power

The everyday stuff called matter turns out to be both more fascinating and stranger than we usually assume. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just matter is, beginning with contemporary ideas from quantum physics, in which matter is frozen light, as the physicist David Bohm put it. They consider the relationship between matter and gravity, as well as matter and ancient notions of potentiality, which turn out to be surprising relevant today. The differences between quantity and quality offer another conversational thread, with the discussion also drawing in wider questions, such as the nature of matter within the philosophy of panpsychism, and also the etymological links between matter and mater, or mother, revealing factors about material of which most are unconscious today.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark seehttps://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttps://www.markvernon.com/talks

There is much talk of a revival of Christianity amongst secular intellectuals, at least in my cultural bubble. That may or may not be sociological significant and church attendence figures stay in marked decline. But what interests me is not so much the numbers as the spirit of the renewed interest. What is the feel of the Christianity being discussed, what attitudes does it embody, what spiritual does it represent?CS Lewis and Owen Barfield discussed these things and, then, Barfield teased out differences between them after Lewis's death. He characterised that as the difference between an analytic and romantic rationality, which produces separate even oppositional understandings of God, Jesus, salvation, this world, the imagination, the human and the creation as a whole.I think that their “oppositional friendship” might illuminate our now, which I try to tease out in this talk.Recorded in St Mary Magdalene church, Stapleford Park0:00 The revival now and the differences between Lewis and Barfield4:25 The Christian story as chasm or participation8:08 Salvation or participation?11:20 Exclusive Christianity or porous Christianity?13:45 The role of reason and the imagination17:11 Following the head or the heart?21:21 Analytical and Romantic, allegorical and mythological approaches to truth27:39 The appeal of Lewis, simplicity and joy32:02 Polarities, oppositions and Trinitarian perception35:40 Different experiences of time, culture wars and choice39:02 What of the future of Christianity?

A couple of years back, Martin Shaw had a visionary experience that led him to Christianity. We talked about it as the Mossy face of Christ - https://youtu.be/8luN8bDDRBs?si=c7jHUt-Ih5xKlVWqSo it was great to talk again about what's been happening. Which is much. The conversation ranges over what might be happening now with Christianity, Martin's recent participation in the Symbolic World Summit, the strangeness, weirdness and terror of Christ, being in the world but not of it, and the importance of myths, stories and fairytales.We mentioned Martin's new course The Skin-Boat and the Star as a practical manifestation of what has been happening for him. For more on that see here - https://schoolofmyth.com/five-weekend-programme/For more on Mark's work see - https://www.markvernon.com0:00 The reviving of interest in Christianity2:53 Report from the Symbolic World Summit6:53 Christ, fairytales and reconnecting with the source14:21 How to keep Christianity strange21:33 From ideas to encounter24:11 Being in the world but not of the world29:08 Passions of the soul and Rowan Williams37:38 Knowing stories and inhabiting stories43:48 From persona to presence47:56 Good fruits not good works49:26 Martin's new course and the imaginative edge52:44 What puts people off Christianity?54:01 Proxies for the Spirit58:17 Limits and more, growth and depth01:04:21 Romanticism coming of age01:12:13 Jonathan Pageau, Malcolm Guite, Iain McGilchrist and others on the new course

The makers of Seaspiracy and Cowspiracy are back. Christspiracy is another profoundly disturbing film detailing the industrial abuse of our animal kin. Expect more horrific carelessness and exploitation on a mass scale. Only this time, Kip Andersen and Kameron Waters not only go global but look back in time. “This is plausibly the most significant new discovery about Jesus Christ, in the last 2,000 years,” says the blurb.But can that be right? Has justified outrage at the treatment of our fellow creatures got the better of them? Initially, I wasn't convinced. But then Kameron Waters reached out to me and we had this long conversation.See what you think. [Spoiler alert - we thoroughly discuss the Christian details in the film.]For more on Christspiracy see https://www.christspiracy.comFor more on Mark, and his work on early Christianity and Jesus via the ideas of Owen Barfield, friend of CS Lewis, see http://www.markvernon.com/consciousness00:00 Introduction02:20 Where to see the documentary and how04:33 The treatment of animals as a religious concern12:26 The prehistory of hunting, sacrifice and temples21:15 What did Jesus do when cleansing of the temple?34:10 What was the cause of Jesus's death?44:38 Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the vegetarian Nazarene?58:37 Kameron's own Christian journey01:05:42 But did Jesus really not eat fish?01:13:40 Ichthus, Pythagoreans and the 153 fish01:24:00 What did Paul mean by vegetarians are weak?01:31:05 Engaging with the film, engaging with the tradition

Energy is a key organising principle in modern science, the conversation of energy being a grounding and universal law. But what is energy? In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon examine the history of the idea and the word. In science, energy is a relatively recently notion, emerging in its current form in the 19th century, drawing much on mechanics. The word itself was coined by Aristotle, in the 4th century BCE, carrying a sense of vital actuality and living presence. That meaning is still remembered in Orthodox theology, which describes the energeia of God. The conversation ranges over the promiscuity of energy in the natural world to the spiritual notion of energy, including the subtle energies of the body. The implications of shaping the idea of energy through mechanical metaphors also has important ramifications, from the descriptions of economics and the efficacy of psychology to the experience of God. Further, the most recent physics argues that energy is not conserved after all as the universe expands.For more conversations between Rupert and Mark see:https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttp://www.markvernon.com/talks

I talk again with Landon Loftin and Max Leyf about the genius insight of Owen Barfield.The Riddle of the Sphinx (Barfield Press) is a new collection of talks and essays about the great friend of CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien.We discuss Barfield's take on analysis and analogy, Darwinian and other kinds of evolution, the significance of Rudolf Stein, and Barfield's notion of final participation.Landon and Max are the authors of What Barfield Thought.For more on my books, including A Secret History of Christianity, see www.markvernon.com0:00 The new book of talks and essays02:08 Plato, Aristotle and the evolution of analogy and analysis 13:31 Participation and the limits of modern science23:30 Barfield's critique of Darwinian evolution33:47 When the mind changes, the world changes38:03 Evolution as a moving image of eternity42:51 How can we participate in evolution?52:18 Barfield and the significance of Rudolf Steiner01:03:45 Grappling with the esoteric01:10:14 On the way to final participation01:17:16 Barfield on the meaning and revelation

How can Christianity address the climate crisis? Isn't the objectifying of nature and the drive to improve our lot a secular legacy of Christendom? And isn't individual conversion more or less irrelevant in a time of systemic crisis?I was delighted to be sent an essay by Gunnar Gjermundsen that asks these questions and more. His insights are wide-ranging, integrating, inspiring and challenging, focusing on a Christianity that is not so much moral as transformative, inviting us to consider again the sayings of Jesus, via theologians such as Maximus the Confessor and psychotherapists like Donald Winnicott.In this discussion we unpack his argument in broadly three moves.First, an analysis of current anxieties that, at heart, are to do with time. A linear view of history has fostered a hope of panicky escape, sacrificing the present for the future as a false substitute for eternity, with devastating consequences for ourselves and the world around us. The problem needs to be addressed at root, which comes in a second section exploring the misunderstanding of eschatology as an event to come and be feared, rather than an unfolding now, to be welcomed. We explore Jesus's teaching as well as how it came to be so profoundly misunderstood.The third section draws in psychological insights, particularly in terms of considering the schizoid, addictive and dread-filled nature of the modern psyche, and turns again to the Christian tradition and the remarkable notion of the kingdom of God that is near, and being born again.The apocalyptical has become a master metaphor for the contemporary imagination, inducing fatalism and denial. Christianity has a vision to undo this terror via the transformation of our consciousness and experience of time. The apocalyptic is not to come but is an unveiling in every moment, a theosis, of the eternal present.And we can live by that alternative.The essay we are discussing is Living on This Earth as in Heaven: Time and the Ecological Conversion of Eschatology, published in Modern Theology, online - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/moth.12930Gunnar Gjermundsen works in the Faculty of Theology, University of Oslo - https://www.tf.uio.no/english/people/aca/gunnargj/For more on Mark Vernon's work, see http://www.markvernon.com

Western liturgies are obsessed with sin. "There is no health in us", or words to that effect, begin and end most services, particularly in Lent.Jesus's wilderness experience was actually about something else - practicing paradise, to use to the phrase of Douglas Christie.It's a time to reorientate attention, not wallow in guilt and re-embed shame. The kingdom is near. Eyes that see, ears that hear, can awaken.

Isaac Newton is best known for his theory of gravity. And yet, the great scientist also insisted: "ye cause of gravity is what I do not pretend to know.” In other words, notions like gravity, and force in general, are deeply mysterious phenomena. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon ask just what gravity might be. The conversation begins with a feature of gravity that is typically overlooked by physicists, namely that gravity has a speed which is far faster than the speed of light. They consider how gravity might be linked to the notion of levity, a link that can be renewed again. Newton himself was inclined to regard gravity as the divine will in the cosmos and was also influenced by the belief in daemons, particularly the entity called Eros or love. These are go-betweens in the universe, in the case of Eros, attracting all things and securing the many as a whole. Panpsychism and final causes are other themes that arise. Contemplating the mysteries of modern science, often hidden in plain sight, leads naturally to deeply meaningful considerations about the nature of the world in which we live.The paper Rupert mentioned, The Speed of Gravity, can be found here - https://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/TheSpeedofGravity-WhattheExperimentsSay.htmFor more conversations between us seehttps://www.sheldrake.org/audios/sheldrake-vernon-dialogueshttp://www.markvernon.com/talks

The rituals around death and dying are changing in the UK and across the developed world. Medical care advances, which is for the good, though can mean to a loss of other kinds of wisdom about this facet of life. People's beliefs and convictions about death are also in a state of flux.The think tank, Theos, has extensively researched this changing landscape, so I was very glad to speak with Madeleine Pennington from Theos about their discoveries, particularly from the perspective of design. This conversation is one of several I am having looking at how designers can foster love in human affairs, personal and social.We discussed the turning away from the ritualisation of death and its effects, the power of rituals to raise aspects of human experience to awareness, and how the grieving process and holding periods of silence can be aided by design.For more on the work of Theos see - https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk Madeleine Pennington has written here too - https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/research/2023/11/27/love-grief-and-hope-emotional-responses-to-death-and-dying-in-the-uk

A conversation with actor, Jamie Robson, whom I met through the work of Rupert Spira.00:00 Meeting through Rupert Spira03:26 Nondualism and Christian mysticism06:02 Nondualism and acting15:00 Being and doing19:40 Detachment and Meister Eckhart26:48 Two modes of perception in Iain McGilchrist and others32:43 Double vision and a re-enchanted world37:30 UFOs and levitation as cases49:45 Everyday re-enchantment52:07 British Weird Wave film59:33 Cultural shifts?

Born in Nigeria and raised in the UK since the age of 4, Chine McDonald is well placed to explore love in different cultural contexts, and what happens when differences meet.We talked about how differences show up particularly in relation to the practicalities of loving, from house design to how people talk at funerals, as well as wider questions such as images of God and the critiquing and idealising of different traditions.Our conversation is one of many I'm conducting as part of a project looking at how love can be fostered by design, funded by the Fetzer Institute.Chine is Director of the think tank Theos, having previously worked at Christian Aid and as a journalist. She is the author of God is Not a White Man: and other revelations, and regularly contributes to programmes on the radio. She studied Theology and Religious Studies at Cambridge University. For more on Chine - https://www.chinemcdonald.com/For more on Mark - https://www.markvernon.com/