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Welcome to another guest edition of Marketing Secrets Live! Russell talks to Keenya Kelly about Tick Tock, Myron Golden about challenges, and Dan Henry about high ticket sales. Don't miss this value packed episode! To be on the next Marketing Secrets Live episode, register at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Everyone welcome to the marketing secrets live show. I'm so excited to be here live with you guys. This is kind of a new format we've been doing for our podcast. And if this is your first time on, welcome. If you were listening to the recordings of this later, and you want to come on one of our live shows, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com and come and sign up for the Marketing Secrets Live Clubhouse room. And this is where we're kind of hanging out once a week or so. And it's fun because this format's been different. I've had a chance to bring in speakers and find out their number of marketing secret. Then I have a chance to share the coolest thing I'm thinking about at the time. And then we open up for Q&A at the end. And so those who are live, get your questions ready. We're going to do a Q&A at the end. Again, if you're listening to the recording on the actual podcast, make sure you go and register for the live shows at clubhousewithrussell.com. It'll be a lot of fun. So today we've got a couple of guests I'm going to bring them on here in a second and share their number one marketing secret. But before we do that, of course, we got to lead off with the marketing secrets theme song. So let me queue that up. When we come back, we'll jump right into to our guest panels. So here we go. All right, welcome officially now to the marketing secrets live show. Yhennifer, excited to have you here as always, helping me kind of co-host this and get things kicked off. Looks like our first guest isn't here yet, but I would love if you want to introduce the first guest that we're going to be talking to, and we'll just jump right in if you want to. Yhennifer: Awesome, let's get the party started. Before we introduce our guests, we want to make sure that you guys that are here on this episode, that you click the little plus sign in the bottom and invite your friends. Also, a reminder, we are recording this room and don't forget to follow the speakers on the stage and click the little monopoly house on the top and follow the Marketing Secrets Club here so that you can get a notification where we go live again. So our first guest speaker is miss Keenya Kelly. Kenya is the CEO of You Brand It, a video marketing consulting firm in San Diego, California. She is a strategist. She is the TikTok queen, and she's been a member of the funnel hacking community since 2017. Welcome Keenya and Russell, I'll pass it on to you Russell: Keenya. So excited to have you here since 2017. That's crazy. You've been around for a long time. I've been watching you for a long time closely for the last probably two or three weeks, which has been so much fun. So excited to have you on the show first off and welcome. How are you feeling today? Keenya Kelly: I am feeling super good. I'm actually in Mexico celebrating my 40th birthday. So I'm feeling real good. Russell: Very cool. Congratulations. Happy 40. I hit my 40th last year. So far, I remember when I was a kid, I thought when my parents turned 40, I was like, "They're almost dead." I was really concerned. And now as a 40 year old, I feel like I'm just starting. So it's different when you get older, isn't it. Keenya: It sure is. I'm like, I'm just getting started up in here, you know what I'm saying? Russell: Very cool. Well, what I want to ask you right now. This is the question I ask all the guests here on the Marketing Secrets Live show, is what is your biggest marketing secret that you are doing right now inside of your business? So we can all hear and learn from it. Keenya: Absolutely. So my biggest secret is TikTok. And I know some people are already like, they're like fading out, but don't fade out. I built my business initially from Facebook and Instagram and in 2020, I'm somebody who prays for strategies. And I heard God tell me to get off to TikTok, which I thought was insane, but I was like, "I'm just going to try." I was like, "Maybe I'm just dealing with whatever because of the pandemic." So I get on to TikTok and initially I'm dancing like everybody else. But then it clicked. This is the newest social media platform that marketers are going to run to. And so in the midst of everything that happened in 2020, I just kept creating content. And fast forward a year later, 450,000 followers, we added an additional $300,000 to my business and it's just been incredible. And now I'm this "influencer". And I'm like, "I never thought that I would be an influencer, but now I am." Russell: That's interesting. So you started with doing dances, like a lot of people do in TikTok. I'm curious, what was the transition like? What were some things you did that helped it to grow or helped get the following, actually make money from it? Keenya: For sure. So what happened was that I was going viral with some of the dances and just being my personality. And I ended up seeing somebody, I can't remember who it was that was marketing and they clicked. And I immediately transitioned. I said, I do love to dance. I do love to have fun. I'm going to take some of these trends and start teaching. So I started doing a little bit of dancing, but I would talk while I was dancing or I would have texts on screen. And I started driving people to the link in my bio to jump on my email list, to buy my courses. And I ended up, like I have a book, a business book called Before You Quit Your Job. And I ended up selling way more books on TikTok than I was anywhere else. And so I just kept doing that. I was like, this is a creative platform. Be creative, have fun, but teach in the way that TikTok's community is. And that is what happened. Russell: That's awesome. It's interesting. I'm not a big TikToker yet, but my kids are. And so I remember when I was trying to understand the platform. I said, "I'm just going to watch my kids and see what they're doing and why they're doing it, to understand them." And it was fascinating because my daughter, she started growing her TikTok channel slowly. And I remember at first she would be like, "I got 30 followers. I got 50." She was so excited, and then what she did, this is super interesting. She set up a second profile and there's a name for it. I think it's like a thing that TikTokers do, I don't know. You may know more than me, but she covered up her face, and it was like, people had to guess who she was. So she did these dances where you can't see her face and people started guessing. And that channel blew up to like 50 or 60,000 people. And she kept building towards the big reveal. As soon as I get X amount of people, I'm to reveal who I am. And so she got to that point and then she revealed who she was and she pushed everyone to her main channel. And she had like almost 30,000 people move over there, follow her on her main channel. And now my daughter's like, "I'm an influencer dad." I'm like, "No, not my daughter. No." But it was just that interesting strategy to watch how she did that. How just some of the different techniques and things to start growing. And I think for anybody, especially someone like me who hasn't really gotten good with the platform yet, it's like find people who are using it and just watch them. That's how we started learning YouTube. I started learning other things is just watching how people who do love the platform, what they're doing and how they're doing it. It sounds like you had something similar, you were doing it just for fun. And then you started seeing other people transitioning. Okay. I see how this is going to work now for my business as well. Keenya: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was something because social media always starts out entertaining. It just does. And then it usually starts out with the younger generation. And so when I got there, I was like, "There is something to this." And I slowly started going, "This is going to be the wave of marketing." And now here we are 2021 and Facebook just launched their short video and everything else has short video. Russell: Yeah. Super interesting. Well, awesome. Thanks for coming on the live show and sharing that it makes me want to go... I'm about to head on family vacation. So my goal is to TikTok my daughter at least three times over the next week and a half. So those who want to follow my TikTok, go find me. I'm only like at 500 followers. So go follow me and you'll see me start trying to practice what we're preaching. So thank you Keenya so much for coming on and sharing. Super grateful for you. Keenya: Thank you so much. Yhennifer: Awesome. Thank you, Keenya. You are awesome. I'm so excited that you were here. All right. So now we have Myron Golden. Myron is a high in demand speaker, trainer in areas of sales, marketing, business development. I think he doesn't even need an introduction because I mean, all the funnel hackers here know who he is, but we had to give him this special introduction. He's also a bestselling author. And I don't know if you guys know this, but he's a songwriter and an owner of a record label. Welcome Myron to the marketing secrets podcast. Back to you, Russell. Russell: What's up Myron. How are you doing, man? Myron Golden: What's up Russell? Good to see you brother. Good to see you. I forgot about this call. Don't tell anybody I said that. Russell: You're live right now… Myron: I'm at the golf course. Russell: Are you golfing right now? Myron: I'm at the golf course, but it's all good, I'm here. Russell: Well, thanks for jumping on. Myron: Good to see you bro, always good Russell: We're only on for a minute or so. So well, first off Myron, you, as you know, you're one of my favorite humans on this planet. Just been so grateful for you. The last few years hanging out often has been some of the highlights in my life. So grateful for you. And the biggest thing on the marketing seekers live show. So we can get you back to golfing, but my only question for you is, what is right now in your business the number one marketing secret. Of all the things you're doing, obviously you're doing a lot of things, but if you could say, this is my number one marketing secret right now, what would that be that you can share with everybody? Myron: Well, my number one marketing secret right now is we've got a challenge to a bootcamp. And what we do is we do a five-day challenge. It's $97 for general admission. It's $297 for VIP and we do it to a split offer, which people say you shouldn't do, but it's working really well for us. So if people are making more than 20,000 a month, we send them to our application for our inner circle. If they're making less than 20,000 a month, we send them to the application for our offer mastery coaching. Where we teach people how to create offers and do challenges. And we've got students right now. We just did our first one at the end of February, beginning of March. And we've got one guy from our first challenge who's already done two challenges and done over $300,000. We've got another lady who's never sold anything high ticket before, her very first challenge she did like $24,000. So people are just crushing it. So that's what we're doing. We're doing a challenge to a $21,000 coaching program and or to our inner circle. And it's done for us so far over $2 million this year. That's Russell: That's awesome. It feels like this year has been- Myron: That's my number one secret. Russell: It feels like this year has been the year of challenges for people, which has been really, really fascinating. And people use it for different ways, right? We use challenges, people in software. Other people using challenges, so there are courses. And you're going from challenge straight to super high ticket, which is fascinating. Now you said also your challenge is a paid challenge of friends, is that what you said? Myron: Oh yeah, paid. Russell: Okay. Myron: It's paid, it's $97 for the general admission and 297 for VIP. Russell: And then what's the... Two follow up questions. Number one. What's the name of your challenge? And then is the challenge happening live throughout the week or is it prerecorded or how do you structure that? He's on the golf course, so it's breaking up a little bit, but so we said it is live and then the other question was just, what was the actual name of your challenge? We can go funnel hacking, go sign up for it. Myron: Yeah. So the name of the challenge is the Make More Offers challenge because I teach people the number one challenge, the number one problem, most business owners have. They don't make enough offers. So I teach them to make more offers and to make more money. And so Make More Offers Challenge and yeah, it's a paid challenge. One $97 for the general mission, 297 for VIP. Russell: Awesome. Well, thank you, Myron. Appreciate jumping on. I hear the birds in the background, you should get back to golfing. Thanks for jumping on real quick and sharing your biggest marketing secret. And I'm grateful for you as always. And just as a side note for everyone who's listening, the Make More Offers challenge, that's a cool name. If you think about the people in this game who have the most success, honestly, are the ones who make the most offers, right? They're trying different things. We just did a very fascinating study with our ClickFunnels data, went through man, like one and a half million people have signed up for ClickFunnels trial over time. And it's crazy, if someone joins ClickFunnels and they buy at least one thing from it. It could be a book, it could be a $7 report, it could be anything, their stick rate triples. And so a lot of times you might go, "Well, I just sell one thing." It's like, yeah, but the more offers you make, the better buyers they become. I remember TJ Rohleder who is one of my mentors in direct mail. And he's brilliant marketer, but essentially you can go and you can actually rent his buyer list. Where you can send his buyers your offers in the mail. And I told him like, "Aren't you worried if other people were making offers to your buyers, they're going to quit buying from you?" And he said, "No, no. You're looking at it backwards." He's like the more people buy, he said buyers stay in motion. And the more they buy, the more they'll continue to buy. So he's like, "I'm going to sell my people stuff, but I want other people to sell them stuff as well, because if they're buying somebody else's offer, they're more likely to buy mine as well because buyers like to buy stuff." And he's like, "If they stop buying, that's worse." He's like, "If I don't send them something in the mail each week, if they're not getting other offers, so they're not continuing to buy. They actually cool off and they become worse buyers over time." And so it's fascinating for us looking at the data from seven years now. It's like, if they've purchased anything from me, like a book, anything, they seek three times longer on ClickFunnels than if they just sign up for ClickFunnels and that's it. So make more offers. We can go on like a two hour podcast just about that alone, how powerful it is. But anyway, so it's awesome. So thank you Myron, for sharing all that. Myron: I'll be happy to jump on and do a two hour podcast with you anytime you're ready Russell. Russell: Awesome. We'll have to plan that. Well, thank you Myron so much for jumping on, and this has been fun so far. So we've got two guests down. We've got one more to go. Yhennifer, you want to introduce our next guest? Yhennifer: Yes. Awesome. Let me reset the room really quickly, guys. If you're finding value in this room, please follow the speakers on the panel. Click the little plus sign and invite five friends right there at the bottom. You can also click on the monopoly house at the top where it says Marketing Secrets Live, so that you can follow this club and get a notification when Russell goes live again. All right, the next speaker on up is Dan Henry. Dan is the founder of getclients.com. He's a bestselling author and a eight figure award winner. Welcome Dan to the room today. Dan Henry: Hey, how's it going guys? Russell: Doing awesome. Dan, great to hear from you. Always awesome to hang out and have you on. I would say before we kick this off officially, I think you are probably one of the most colorful characters inside of our community, which makes it fun. Sometimes I get nervous. Sometimes I get excited and back and forth, but always respect and always grateful for you and awesome to have you here. So my question for you that I'm excited to hear your thoughts because you're a deep thinker who goes, sometimes our thoughts counteract each other, which is kind of fun as well. But I'm curious for you right now in your business, in the spot you're at, what is the biggest marketing secret that you're finding right now that's working for you guys? Dan: Well, I've always, as you know, Russell, I've always used polarity to... But that's something I've used for years, and I always say if you make enough noise, all eyes will be on you, make sure you're selling something. And I think a lot of people think that they don't use polarity or if they use polarity they're going to turn off a bunch of people. But that's the thing, is you use polarity in your daily life whether you intend to or not. If you go to church and you walk out of that church, an atheist is going to drive by and be like, "That guy sucks." And vice versa. It's like, if you go to the gym and you're in shape, somebody who's not shape is going to look at you and be jealous. You're polarizing anyway. So you might as well get paid for it. And so of the things that we made a radical, radical shift in our business was what I like to call, and I learned from you, the value ladder. I would call this sort of the reverse value ladder. So we start with high ticket. I pretty much don't build a value ladder until I hit at least one million with a high ticket offer. Because the way I view it, if you're good enough, if your offer is good enough to book calls and close sales and do well, it's the engine, right? The other stuff around it is the fuel that pours into the engine. So what we did was we started selling high ticket only, and it just radically transformed our business. And then I tacked the book on and some low ticket products to fuel it, to scale it even further. And we've been able to, I mean, I'm not on social media that much anymore. I'm not that active anymore, and we've done... We have million-dollar days, we have million-dollar weeks. I just launched a hundred-thousand-dollar offer within like hours, landed a client for that. I mean, and everything else just supports that. And I think a lot of people don't realize that there are two segments of the market. There are low ticket buyers and there are high ticket buyers. Low ticket buyers either won't buy your high ticket ever, or they require multiple products, multiple touch points, months, and months, or even years of following to ascend them to be a high ticket buyer. And that's true and that works, but there's also a segment of the market that are already high ticket buyers. That are ready to pay you a high ticket price right now, and nobody markets to them. Because almost every book, almost every guru out there, almost every direct response marketer, talks about low ticket and the language of low ticket buyers. So those high ticket buyers they're already ready to buy. It's literally a blue ocean, but most people don't know how to talk to them. So what I did is I literally deleted all my low ticket stuff. I started speaking to the high ticket buyers first. I still use polarity, that still works. And then once I've tapped into that fully and the machine is oiled, then I tacked in the low ticket stuff. To take those low ticket buyers and turn them into high ticket buyers. But going after high ticket buyers first as a priority changed everything Russell: Awesome. I actually a hundred percent agree with that. It's interesting. One of my biggest fears when I teach people the value ladder is number one, is that they don't do anything until they've got all the offers and all the value ladder built out, which is the wrong thing. Number two, they start with the, I'm going to go write a book then, which is the hardest thing, as you know. You've written a book too. Of all the things, it's the hardest, and it's the hardest to make profitable. Whereas if someone leads with a higher ticket, a webinar or a high ticket offer, you have more room to mess things up, right? Because you sell one 10,000 or 20,000 whatever client, you can do a lot of things wrong. You can mess up on the ads and mess up on the copy and everything you used in one person and it cleans up all the mess, right? And so typically, like you said, it's easier to get some of that to work out of the gate and then scale-out to call them a cup of whatever that is. And then coming back and saying, "Hey, I need more ways to bring people into this offer." And that's when a book offer does well, or things like that. Hormozi did the same thing, he had his high ticket thing, killing it. And then he wrote a book and then his book offer, if you guys go through his book offer, he doesn't have anything else to say. So you buy the book, and the next page is like, cool you bought the book. Apply now for the high ticket coaching. And he did find that he was able to get more buyers coming in that way, but it was leading with the high ticket. And I think for most people, especially if you're getting started, this is one of the easier, faster ways. I think the biggest problem people have a lot of times is just the belief that they can actually sell high ticket when they're first beginning, which is probably more of the problem. But man, the metrics and the math make way more sense when you lead with that, for sure. Dan: That's who got me into high ticket originally, it was Hormozy. I met him backstage at a ClickFunnels event and he's like, "Dan, how much money did you make this month?" And I'm like, "One million." And he's like, "How much did you spend?" I'm like, "700,000." And he's like, "Cool. I made like two million and I spent like a hundred grand." I'm like, "You must be so good at Facebook ads." And he's like, "No, I suck at Facebook ads. My cheapest offer is 16 grand." And my mind just exploded when he said that. And ever since then, everything I've done has been revolving around that. But I want to make a point. You said that your biggest fear was that people do the value ladder wrong. And I think that's a point that everybody needs to hear. There's a difference between learning what to do, how to do it and how to do it well, how to execute it. And I will tell you, most people funnel hacking, value ladder. They do it wrong. They want to build out the whole thing first or instead of modeling someone's funnel, they just go and copy it word for word. And they don't realize that there's what to do, there's how to do it and how to do it well. I think that's a big thing, is the stuff you teach. I mean, you were the person that got me started in this game. I made $25 million and it has literally started from the moment I saw you on an ad going, "Buy my dotcom secrets book." And I bought that book, and now what, I don't know, five, whatever, how many ever years later, four years, five years, I've made $25 million. And I'll tell you that if I were to say one thing, that is the difference between people who make it and people who don't, is a lack of comprehension. Nobody gives effort into comprehending what somebody says. They just look at it and go, "Okay, cool." And then they don't really go, "Okay, why does this work? What's the science behind this?" And they just take a superficial action. So I think your stuff is amazing, Russell. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here right now. But I do think people need to put more effort into understanding how to do it well. Russell: A hundred percent. Yep. People look to service level. There's a method to this and if you go deeper, you can see why it works, not just how it works so. Well, awesome, man. Well, thank you, Dan. Thank you, Keenya. Thank you, Myron, for jumping on the first half of the Marketing Secrets Live show. For those who are on live, this is fun. So we're going to have two more sessions of this live podcast. If you're listening to the recording of this, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com. Go and register and that way in the future, when we go live, you'll get notified on your phone. And you come hang out with us live and have some fun.

OH DAS NICE. Welcome Dan to TOO SERIOUS! In this episode we talk about racial discrimination, stepping out of your comfort zone, and getting hit by cars. Enjoy!

The Longest Show In Program History! Tony and Todd are joined by WrestleStat's own Dan Seifring to discuss all things D1 Jersey Wrestling and their Fantasy College Wrestling (FCW) potential in 2021! Keep an ear out too for some updates to WrestleStat enhancements and teases for the upcoming Fantasy College Wrestling season! 0:01:30- Welcome Dan to the Podcast! & Intro Ramblings............. 0:05:10- WrestleStat History & Some FCW Teases............. 0:22:25- Drinks & Quick Hit Rider............. 0:46:00- A Lot of Redshirts in 2021............. 0:49:10- Rutgers and Princeton 125 to 157............. 1:19:00- Rutgers and Princeton 165 to 285............. 1:37:35- Recap of FCW Potentials............. 1:40:35- Three Random Questions & Tangents.............

This week Jarvae & Shaye invite their first ever guest! Welcome Dan, as they talk The Alchemist with a sprinkle of dating talk. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/3strikespodcast/support

How can marketers use MRI data and neurolinguistics to develop strategies and campaigns that get better marketing results? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Hackstone founder and CEO Dan Hack talks about the process his team uses to incorporate lessons learned from FMRI scans in crafting impactful stories that really resonate with audiences. Dan breaks down what he calls the "three brain framework" and shares a formula for using it to create messaging, campaigns, stories and videos that help viewers convince themselves to make a purchase. Highlights from my conversation with Dan include: Hackstone is a video production company that acts as an outsourced creative team for agencies. Dan and the team at Hackstone use neuroscience research from FMRI scans to determine what taps into peoples' emotions, and they use that to develop marketing campaigns. Dan says most marketers make the mistake of leading with facts, when in reality, buyers are driven by emotion, and then look for the facts to back up their emotional decision. The three brain framework can be used to apply these principles. It segments the brain into three parts - the emotional brain, the logical brain, and the survival brain. The survival brain decides what information the brain will actually take in based on what is needed for survival. The emotional brain is where connections and associations are made, and where memories are stored and relationships are developed. It is what triggers the desire to purchase something. The logical brain is all about facts, and is used to justify the purchases that the emotional brain wants. FMRI data is used to determine what really resonates with people, and what they really want - as opposed to what they say they might want. The most important thing in developing marketing messages and campaigns is to determine what your customers want, but unfortunately most marketers start by identifying what they want to tell customers. Dan calls this selfish marketing. Resources from this episode: Visit the Hackstone website Follow Hackstone on Instagram Check out some of the sources Dan relies on for neuroscience data: CXL NMSBA Journal of Consumer Research Journal of Advertising Research Listen to the podcast to learn how to incorporate neuroscience into the development of your marketing strategies. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And today my guest is Dan Hack who is the founder and creative director of Hackstone. Welcome Dan. Dan Hack (Guest): Thanks. Dan and Kathleen hamming it up while recording this episode. Kathleen: I'm happy to have you here and I am excited to talk about some of the things that you're working on which are really, really kind of cool and scientific. About Dan and Hackstone Kathleen: Before we get into that, for those who are listening and might not be familiar with you or Hackstone, can you talk a little bit about your story and who you are and what you do and also what Hackstone is? Dan: Yeah, sure. So Hackstone started out as a video production company. I started Hackstone like 12 years ago I think now. We've kind of developed into sort of an arm of an agency and it's been a lot of fun because we get to do the creative things we get to, we get to do different... our clients are all over the place, big and small. And we get to do a lot of kind of the creative part and work with agencies to come up with the creative, to recommend the creative to their clients and also to our clients. And then we do a lot of testing. We do a lot of like, is this going to work, you know, testing storyboards and the creative and then also doing the, you know, we call them postmortems, you know, we're afterwards you go and see why something worked and why why it didn't work. Right? So we're kind of a production company on steroids we've been called. So it's a lot of fun. We really like what we do. What does MRI data have to do with marketing? Kathleen: That's awesome. One of the things that drew me to talking with you and having this conversation is that I learned that you guys are using actually MRI data and neurolinguistics to figure out more effective ways of tapping into emotions and developing narratives. I will be the first to say, I'm a huge marketing nerd. And I think while many people think of marketing as this creative discipline, I'm always naturally drawn to the side of it that's a little bit more scientific, which is why I was like, Oh, I totally want to talk about this. So tell me, what does MRI data have to do with marketing? Dan: So nothing and everything all at the same time. So basically what we're doing, and it's funny because you develop instincts, right? About what's going to work and not work. And there's always the chase of how do we know this is going to work and why did something work and why did something not work, right? Like way back when, the reason I got into this whole thing was because I was young, I was creative. I had two projects that fell into my lap. They were really successful and creative people have a huge ego. And I had a ginormous ego, right? I became so arrogant when I first started this. I wanted to be a director, I wanted to affect the world with my product, right? And then, you get to projects that don't work at all, right? That are just flops. And the thing about a big ego is that they're incredibly fragile as well. Right? And then you become crushed and everything you thought you believed about yourself is wrong essentially. So that's when I really got into the world of like, I wanted to find out why were these two projects after I've had this success, why did these projects not work? Right? Because clients give you their money when they give you their money, they give you their trust as well. They're like, Hey, we trust that you're going to make something that's going to blow the lid off of our KPI. You know? And, and that's a lot of responsibility and that's a lot of pressure as well. So I was exposed to the world of testing pretty early on in my in my career and, and it just started with just asking people like, do you like this? Do you, how did we do? Like, do you think this is something you would buy? Is this a good product? Like, how did you resonate with it? What annoyed you? But there are a lot of problems with that and you find that, that people respond and oftentimes tell you they're really nice. People inherently are good, right? And they tell you what they think you want to hear. So the information you get back from them is not entirely accurate all the time. So you go deeper, right? You go into like, okay, well we're going to use eye tracking technology, right, to figure out like where they're looking. And then you go even deeper. You were going to use EEG to see how their brain is firing, which is, which are the like the probes you put on the head. Then you measure sweat glands and you measure pulse. And basically stop asking them questions. It's like, Hey, we're not going to ask you any more. We're just going to see how you respond to whatever stimuli we put in front of you. Kathleen: It's like a lie detector. Dan: Kind of, exactly. Only less pressure for them. You don't go to jail afterwards hopefully. But so then you get into all the way up to FMRI data, which is essentially putting somebody into an FMRI machine. And FMRI stands for functional magnetic resonance imaging. And what that does is it looks at your brain and tells you real time, with a few second delay, how your brain is firing or responding or what parts of your brain are using the most blood right? The most fuel based on what you're showing somebody. And it's like a light bulb. It's super cool. Like you can show somebody a commercial and you can tell right away based on what parts of their brains are firing, whether they like it or not. Right? Apple develops their products in FMRI machines where they show the different cases of the different screens of the different iPhones. And they can tell right away like, okay, well this part of the brain is firing and that means they like it or they don't like it or they're responding negatively or positively or whatever. And really we've taken that, so trying to kind of sum it up here, they've taken that, we've taken that and sort of put that into a framework that we call the three brain framework. That tells you certain things like we know from FMRI data that people don't respond to facts, right? But people don't buy cars because of the safety features, they don't buy cars because they have the radar you know, the radar cruise control on the highway or the leather seats or whatever. It's all about emotion, right? And that's why we always go back to how should it make you feel? Right? That's how we start every single project. We have two steps. Number one, how should it make you feel? Number two, support that with facts, right? A lot of people get that backwards. And that's what we know from FMRI data is that when you're selling facts, you're selling to a part of the brain whose only job it is to support the emotional decision that you've already made. Kathleen: Right. It's to reverse justify what we like. First we figure out what we want and then we figure out how to justify it. Dan: Right? Exactly. Exactly. But here's the thing, like we don't even know we're doing it right? Like there's, one of my favorite studies is a smoking study back from the nineties. I think it was early nineties. The biggest FMRI study ever done where it was when the surgeon general started putting the warning on the packs of cigarettes, right? And researchers wanted to find out like, well, people are still smoking, but people are saying, right, we're doing these focus groups. And people are saying like, yeah it's making me not smoke. Right? And they were like, okay, we need to put these people into FMRI machines and figure out what's going on. So first they asked them, they said, do you think the Surgeon General's warning on the pack of, you know, any tobacco product makes you less likely to smoke or makes you smoke less? And they were like, yeah, I think so. And then they put them in FMRI machines and they watched their brains as these people, number one smoked, and number two, were exposed to the Surgeon General's warning, right? And what they found is super cool. They found that when people smoke, their brains have the same reaction as, it's the reward center lights up, it just explodes, as when they see the Surgeon General's warning. It's the power of associations, right? So because when people smoke, what they usually do is they stop working, they walk down the hallway, they link up with coworkers, they have a conversation. And the last thing they see before they light a cigarette before this release of dopamine is they see the Surgeon General's warning, right? Kathleen: Pavlov's dog, right? Dan: And so they create that association, right? It really is. Yeah, exactly. So in neuromarketing, what you're doing is you're trying to figure out how the brain works and you're trying to, you don't always have the budget to test every single project, but you're trying to figure out, you're trying to make an educated guess on how people are going to respond to certain things, right? Kathleen: Sorry to interrupt you, but it's so interesting listening to you talk about this because I'm actually fascinated by the neuroscience behind all the anti-smoking campaigns. And I had done some research on this as well. And a corollary, kind of additional story to the one you just told, which I think is so interesting is you know, for many years, depending upon how old you are, if you're listening, you may or may not remember for many years, the government used these campaigns that were these very scary images of like black lungs. And, it's interesting, they're starting to do this again now. What they found, the primary focus of a lot of the antismoking campaigns was on teenagers because that's like, if you can prevent somebody from starting to smoke in the first place, it's a much better approach than trying to get somebody who's already smoking to stop. Dan: Right? Kathleen: And so they used to use those scare tactics and like, you know, just like the eggs and this is your brain on drugs kind of thing. And those did not work well. It wasn't until they had something called the Truth Campaign where they started to see some success. What the Truth Campaign did, which you may recall seeing, is it scrapped all of those fear tactics. What they did was they figured out, they really thought about like, why do people smoke? Right? Why do teenagers start to smoke in the first place? Is it because they don't understand it's bad for them? No, it's because they are rebelling against their parents. And that is a form of rebellion. And so what the Truth Campaign did was it looked at, well, if we want to tap into that feeling of rebellion, how can we leverage rebellion to get them to not smoke in the first place? So the messaging and the Truth Campaign was all around big tobacco wants to control you and has you in their pocket. So it was like rebel against big tobacco and don't fall for it essentially. And that got a much, much better outcome than all the fear tactics. And I feel like that's kind of like the same thing that you're talking about. All of these campaigns, you can pour a ton of money into them. But if you don't really understand at the very core what is that emotion that somebody is driven by, then you're not going to be successful. Dan: Right. Kathleen: So that was a long tangent, but I'm fascinated by this and there's so much interesting work being done in behavioral health that I think can inform marketing. Dan: Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, and the problem I think is that it's still kind of expensive, right? Like there are research groups and there are subscription services and we subscribe to those where when researchers do this research to find out what campaign was the most successful in this last super bowl, right? And they do the FMRI studies and they're funded. You can subscribe to that data and get that data and then use that data to kind of inform what you do. In a perfect world, yeah, we would have, you know, when we do a car campaign, you know, put people in an FMRI machine to see like, Hey, are they most stimulated by the color? Are they, is that a red car? Is it a white car? Is that a black car? So, those are all the nitty gritty things that you get into. But I think at the heart of it is exactly like what you said. You need to figure out who your audience is. You need to figure out what they want, and then give it to them. It sounds really simple and it kind of is, right? And then all these tools, this neuromarketing is essentially, we use that to try to figure out what it is, what exactly is it that your audience wants and how do you give it to them? Because a lot of clients come to us and they say here's what we want to say. Or, when you ask them questions like what causes a campaign to not perform well? And usually it goes back to selfish marketing, right? You approach that campaign with what is it that we want to say, right? We want to tell our story. Like, the word story, I'm an oppositionist. I get that. But, the word story drives me up the wall. It drives me insane because it's become this catchall, right? And it's all like, tell your story has become this romantic replacement to messaging, right? Or information or get your message out there. What does that mean? Right? So this is really a sort of a way to figure out what is the right story. There are a million stories. Like, nobody cares who started the company, right? Nobody cares why even necessarily you started the company, right? People care about other things. And this is really trying to find out what those things are and then giving them those things essentially. Kathleen: So I have so many questions for you. Dan: I'll just go and go. What is the Three Brain Framework? Kathleen: No, no, no. I warned you, I'm a huge nerd. And so like you've already seen through the smoking stuff, you and I could go for hours on this topic. But I want to break it down a little bit. So first of all, you mentioned you have this Three brain approach. Can you define for me exactly what that, like what are the three brains? Dan: Sure. So obviously, there are more than three parts of the brain, but for our purposes, for this marketing purpose we divide the brain into three parts. We have the survival brain, you have the emotional brain, and then you have the logical brain, right? And we look at it as kind of a funnel. All three parts of those brains has its own purpose. So you look at the survival brain, sort of like a club bouncer, right? He stands in the front with his arms crossed and he decides what gets in and what gets out, right? The brain is cognitive miser, right? So the brain tries to save calories. He's the guy who decides number one, is this important to my survival? Do I need to know this information? Is this going to save my life? And then he also decides, is this new information? Do I already know this information or can we just radically summarize that? So to put it on the shelf, and a good example of that is like your lawn, right? Nobody knows how many blades of grass they have in their front yard right now. It's not looking good for my yard. I have room for a lot. I've only had four like blades of grass or nursing them and, but everybody knows that you have that you have a lawn, right? You see a lawn. That's an example of something being radically summarized and then you know, and then put on a shelf. So you have that. Then if you do get through that, you have the emotional brain, right? And the emotional brain is the, we call it the mother, right? It's the mammal brain, if you will. You know, some people call it that. And basically that's where you create associations, right? Like, Hey, last time when I touched that, it burned me and that hurt. And that's important to my survival. And it does other things like memory. That's where your relationships are built, right? Like where do you fit in, in your tribe? And how do you advance, you know, in your tribe and, and you know, again, important for your survival. And also you have some really cool things that happen in here, like synesthesia for example, which is like, which is where... Kathleen: Is that where you see colors as emotions? Dan: Yeah. Kind of. But it's like when you're watching a commercial. We use this in food commercials, right? When you're watching a commercial and you do a really good job in filming that and getting that across, the viewer will actually taste what they're seeing, right? It's essentially you have these neuro pathways for like vision and for taste and for smell and whatever. And sometimes when they're really powerful, when you have a train, there's a train outside. So that made me think of it. When you have a train like hurling down this neuro pathway, sometimes it'll jump the track onto another pathway. Right? Kathleen: I feel like I totally know what you're talking about because when I go to the movies, my chain of cinemas locally, in the intro kind of footage that leads up to every movie, they always have the sound of the can of Coke popping open. And then the pouring into the glass with the ice and the fizzy sound combined with the ice clinking and the Coke filling. And I'm like sitting there going, Oh my God, I need a Coke. And I can taste it right now. Dan: I want that. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. So that's the part of the brain where those kinds of things happen, right? And those are the kinds of things we want to do. And that's why you make food. Like your goal is to make the viewer taste the food, right? Pizza. Really close shots of the cheese pulls and those kinds of things. Right? Super important. So anyway, the emotional brain is where we do most of our decision making, right? Then you have the logical brain and the logical brain is sort of like, it's like, it reminds me of my dad, right? He's the accountant and he's the guy who basically, he's like the legal department, right? He's the guy who who ruins the fun essentially, you know, like, like you say... Kathleen: We call that "the fun sponge". Dan: Yeah, exactly. It's the higher processing. Dan: And this part of the brain either supports what your emotional brain has already decided when it comes to purchasing or it overrides that decision, right? So you can go and sit in a Ferrari and you smell that new smell of the Ferrari and you really want it and you feel that emotional connection to the car in that red and that tan leather, you know, or whatever. And then the logical brain comes in and says like, Hey, 2,500 bucks a month. Like that's more than your mortgage. There's no way. We're not doing that. And really, that's the way it works. So the emotional brain is where you should be selling, right? When you create something, you should create it for the emotional brain and then create facts to support the logical brain in helping support the emotional brain in making that decision. So that's why facts should come second. Yet most of our marketing aims directly for that logical brain, yet that's not where we make decisions. Kathleen: Yeah, that makes total sense. Cause I totally know that myself, how I buy. It's like I see something I like and I'm like, I really want that. How can I justify it? It's the old saying buy the dress and then find the party. Where to find neuroscience data Kathleen: So for somebody who's listening, I think if they understand this conceptually, you know, if it were me, my next question would be like, great, now how do I find this data to help me figure out what emotions to tap into? And you were mentioning there's ways you can subscribe to information about FMRI data. So can you get into a little bit if somebody wants to learn more about this, get tapped into to that kind of data, where can they find it? Dan: Sure. So I can send you some links afterwards if you want to put those in the show notes there on some of the places where you can subscribe to that. Publications, you can subscribe to even industry standard or industry specific data, you know, that apply directly to your industry. But a lot of this stuff is really, it's not new information, right? You have to beat it into your brain to kind of remember that. So, for example, the principle of the three brains, right? The fact that our minds look for contrast. There's this framework. Your mind looks for contrast, right? It's got to get into your mind first without being filtered out. And then you have certain principles that are kind of spread out. They're all over. And I think you have to make a decision. So that's why you have neuro marketing firms who put that together for you if you don't want to think about it. But I think it's important to become familiar with that. And then to put everything you do marketing wise, messaging wise through a framework like that. Does that make sense? How to apply neuroscience to B2B marketing Kathleen: Yeah, it does. And, in my head I'm thinking I can see so clearly how you would use this. You used the example of a Ferrari. If you're selling a Ferrari or you're selling a food product or you know, clothing or some things that are more consumer facing, maybe more optional products if you will. But my question is when it comes to, for example, like what somebody might consider to be a boring B2B purchase, like accounting software or you know, like I'm in cybersecurity. Walk me through how you think about developing an emotional tug for something that most people look at as a pretty boring thing. Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing before we even get to that emotional tug, we have to remember, get through the bouncer, right? So one of the things, and I had this super cool example, hold on, I might have it written down here, that that I pulled. Now maybe I don't. You get these emails where people use industry jargon a lot, right? You first have to think about how do you get through the bouncer. So you have to make it easy to understand. You have to, you have to understand that you're super close to your industry. The person you're talking to might not be super close to your industry. So understand that your brain immediately asks, do we even let this information in? Whether it's an email, whether it's a marketing video, whether it's a commercial, like whatever it is, whether it's a billboard even. Should we let this information in? And you have to then go to the emotional connection of how do you make that emotional connection. So when we say emotional connection, you have to emote. What we mean is you have to think about how should this messaging make you feel. So some questions to ask are, should this make the person feel like I'm an authority? Should this person feel afraid that you know, that somebody is going to hack their system or steal ransomware, viruses, those kinds of things. Should they feel funny? Or should your messaging feel funny? Should they be amused? So you go back to that. How should it make you feel? And then you take that information and that information should support that. Does that make sense at all? Examples of marketing campaigns that have been developed using MRI data Kathleen: Yeah, it does. It totally does. So let's get into some examples because you guys have done work with some really interesting companies and I feel like this is especially one of those topics where you can talk about it conceptually and still not understand it. But when you dive into actual examples, it starts to become much more clear. So can you maybe talk about how you've used these principles with some of the companies you've worked with to get really great results? Dan: Sure. Exactly. So car ads. So I'll take a local first. So we work with a local brand. It was a Ford dealership and they had done celebrity commercials in the past where they had an athlete say like, Hey, here's where I'm shopping. And when we look at data, FMRI data, even with the, with the latest COVID, there's a lot of data coming out from COVID PSAs where they're saying a lot of these pieces are falling flat, right? A lot of this messaging from COVID 19 is falling flat, even with celebrities in it. Why is that? Right? And then you get into like, it's not just a matter of getting celebrity, you have to put that celebrity in a, in a situation where it's authentic. And what's authenticity? That depends on your brand. So, a while back, we put an athlete into a set of Ford commercials. And the problem was that athletes can't act. Not only can't they act, athletes don't want to act right. And it was almost like, you know, having this athlete is working. It's okay, but we're doing it because we've done it in years past and it's sort of like people expect that from our brands. How do we ramp that up? So what we did was we came in and we said okay, the athlete can't act, he doesn't want to act. He shouldn't act if he doesn't want to, so you don't have to. What does the audience want? So we created this campaign where we took this athlete, made fun of the fact that he's in a commercial where he's being asked to act and he doesn't want to act. And it was phenomenal, right? It went all the way up the chain to like, what are you guys doing? This is awesome. This is like the best campaign ever. The athlete had a lot more fun doing the commercial. The client had a much better response from that. And that trickles down to now you have fundraisers with the athlete where now you have a better response to that. You sell more cars. People are talking about your brand more and most importantly, people remember your brand more. Because ultimately it's about attention and it's about keeping the attention. And then, how were you remembered by the people who maybe aren't ready to buy now but are ready to buy in 90 days? Wherever they are in their cycle and their buying cycle. And how do you stay top of mind for that? Pizza, same thing. You know, in the celebrity line, we work with a pizza brand every year where they have an athlete who works with them to not only sell pizzas but also to raise money for a charity. A certain amount of your sales goes to whatever the charity is. And they had typically had this green screen and put the celebrity up. The celebrity image, let that just do the work. And people didn't respond to that. So we went back and said, okay, who is the audience here? Who are we really trying to attract? And it's fans of this athlete, right? So you look at the basic framework. You don't have to FMRI study this to kind of get that framework. We look at that information and we say okay, they want to be entertained. And the best way to entertain them, and we know this from FMRI data, it's the associations, right? So if you were to put a puppy on the screen, and then put the brand at the end, if that's the emotion you want to be linked to, you are already 75% of the way there, right? When it comes to commercials then you put in your messaging and you make it even better. And we found in the past that when you take a product and you integrate it into a piece of entertainment, you maintain that audience attention. It's the sense parts of an advertisement. So when I say ad, I mean like a video, even a video on Facebook for example. And you're trying to get a lead or you're trying to sell mattresses or whatever it is you're trying to sell, it's about keeping the attention, and especially how long a viewer stays in a video matters because that's how you retarget, right? That's how you recognize how interested they are. We have a three minute video. They made it all the way to the end, they're super interested, right? So it becomes like this capturing the attention and then maintaining the attention. So what we did with the pizza brand is we created a short film and we put this character, the athlete, which was Alex Ovechkin, into this pizza commercial where he was in these absurd scenarios. Like he initially moved here from Russia where pizza was the reason he moved, not hockey. He stumbled upon hockey when he was delivering pizzas, right? And it was this absurd storyline that was just fun and entertaining. And you saw this athlete in a situation he's not normally in. When you're selling, you're always asking people for their attention. When they're seeking you out, that's when it's okay to just give them the information, like on an iPhone, right? But when you're asking them, when you're interrupting their lives and you're asking them for their attention, you're saying like, Hey, we want you to buy our pizza. Because when you buy our pizza, a portion of your proceeds go to whatever the charity is, you have to make it worth their while. And we saw a a phenomenal capture rate. Not only that, but the average, I'm trying to think of like what it is now. So the average completion rates for any video for a long form video is about 15%. We were hitting 86, 87% completion rates because when somebody starts the video, they watch all the way to the very end to the logo and to the offer. Which is phenomenal. And those are the kinds of things, more than just views, you can say Oh yeah, this got 2 million impressions, you know, which is great. You can buy impressions. Impressions don't really mean a lot. Are they meaningful impressions? Ultimately that's what you're trying to get to with FMRI, or with any neuro marketing, you're trying to get to the bottom of, is this meaningful to our audience? You're getting their attention. You're hopefully keeping their attention by creating a meaningful experience that is worth their time, which is ultimately the most valuable thing I think we have. How to get started with neurolinguistics and MRI data Kathleen: That's so interesting. Throughout this conversation, you've sprinkled in things that are a good guide for somebody if they're thinking okay, I want to do this. Can you kind of summarize, if you were meeting with somebody for the first time and you needed to tell them, here's how you're going to go ahead and use this concept for your own marketing, what are the steps they should go through? Where do they get started? Dan: Sure. So we've got a framework, I can pull it up here real quick just just as a reference. We've got a campaign worksheet that we use for these when we go in that's based on our three brains. So for example, we always ask, what's the purpose of your video? What's the primary goal of your campaign? And that's just the background information. So you say who's your customer? And then how are you going to measure success? I think it's super important to figure out how are we even going to gauge if this thing is working or if it's successful or not? You'd be amazed how many people don't know. A lot of times, especially with video, we find that a lot of people come to us and say like, Hey, the CEO wants a video. We don't really know what the purpose is, but can you just get it off my plate? We call those box checker videos and then we're like that nerdy kid in class who's like, but we still want an A, right? So we'll get the A for you. So again, we start out with contrast. So we say like, who are your competitors? And you take inventory of what your competitors are doing. And again, through this neuro research, we know that it is better to be different than it is to be better. It's very difficult to quantify better. Like, what is better to some people, right? So, for example, banks might say, and this is a common thing, when a customer comes into our bank, we know their name. We know them, we have that personal relationship. To me that's not better. I love being anonymous. When I walk into a branch and they say, good morning, Mr. Hack, I'm like, Oh cool, I need to find a new bank. They know my name. That's not good. I don't like that. So that's something that doesn't work for everybody. So then you say how many competitors, what are your competitors doing? How do you not do what your competitors are doing? Because we know through the tests we do repeatedly that when you put a series of car commercials that all say the same thing, when you watch the Today Show in the morning and you see the lawyer commercials one right after the other that say, we're fighting for you, we're here for you, we're the tough guys. You know, people don't remember that. People will watch that. We watch people watch those. It's commercials where we'll put like five or six of those in a row. We'll watch people watch them. We'll see them interact with them. Yet at the end of that run of commercials, they don't remember anything. They don't remember any of the brands. Because again, the bouncer, right? The survival brain has decided like, Hey, you don't need to know this information. Even if you're in the market for that, you don't need to know this information. It's going to use too many calories to process it. I'm going to put it all together for you, put it in a basket and put it on the shelf. You don't need to worry about it. People don't remember what they saw. They don't remember brands. They don't even remember the storylines at the end of that. So the first thing we do is try to figure out, okay, what do we do that's different? We put that into our framework. The next thing is simplicity. And this again is the survival brain. So for a long form video, you might decide what are the three points we want to make really well? Where for a commercial you may decide what's the one point we know, through testing? When you try to make three points in a 32 second commercial, people remember generally nothing. It's like 0.5 when you average it out, right? When you put one point in a commercial, when you try to make one point, people tend to remember mostly that one point that you're making. So you have to ask yourself, okay, like we want to get these 15 things across in our messaging or in our video. Is this the place for that? Where are you in the buying cycle? And right now when you're top of funnel, is this the place where you want to try to educate customers on your product? Usually, no. So because it's just too much to remember at that point, what do you need to prove to your customer to convince them to buy? So that's how you appeal to the logic part, because the logic part is going to ultimately support the emotional part. How should you deliver that information? And then we look at the reward. The final thing is the reward. Why should your viewer keep watching? And when we test a long form piece, like with the Ovechkin piece for example, it looks fun and it looks interesting and it looks entertaining, but it's very thought out. We went through and figured that in a piece like this, you have somebody's attention for maybe seven, eight seconds before their mind starts wandering. What can we put in there at the seven, eight second mark that is going to recapture their attention, draw them in? So you have to do that throughout your video. And when you watch I don't know, like the Purple Mattress for example, is a really good campaign. That was done to repeatedly bring you back in those really good long form, like Dollar Shave. Kathleen: I was just going to say that first Dollar Shave Club video that made them go viral, you couldn't stop watching because the pace was so perfect and you knew there was something more fantastic that was coming. Dan: Yeah. So, and you have to remember that what's interesting to you is likely not interesting to your customer. And that's what we talk about as selfish marketing. What do they want to hear versus what do I want to say? Yup. Kathleen: I love it. Well, okay, so any chance that I could share a link to that campaign framework in the show notes because that sounds like a super valuable document for people to have. Dan: And then it's got other things too, which is super cool. What does your customer want? What's their internal problem? Then you get into internal versus external problems and those kinds of things. What's keeping them from having what they want and how do you solve that problem? But ultimately, people remember how they felt when they watched your stuff or when they're exposed to your brand much more. And again, FMRI data or not FMRI data, it comes down to the fact that people remember how they felt. They don't remember what you said. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: This is so interesting and it's been so much fun to talk about. I want to ask you two questions and then I want to get into how somebody can follow up and learn more. So my two questions that I always ask everybody, the first one is, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. I'm curious, is there a particular company or individual that you think is really setting the standard for doing inbound marketing right now? Dan: Yeah, I do. I think there's so many of them. Most of the national long form ads that you're seeing on Facebook now are really well done. For example, Purple Mattresses, really well done. They have the bears, right? I think Geico, the Martin agency, Geico does a phenomenal job. And I also think that Dollar Shave Club really was the kind of the groundbreaking long format that changed how long form ads work. Even though you had that data, there's a disconnect between people know what the right thing to do is versus them actually doing those things. Kathleen: I love those examples. And then the other thing, most marketers I talk to say they suffer from this problem of what I call drinking through a fire hose. Digital marketing changes so quickly. It's really hard to keep up with best practices and new technology and all that. So how do you personally keep yourself educated? Dan: So you know, there's certain people, certain things I follow. Some people follow Gary V - Gary Vaynerchuk. So people like that. You take those sources. I have a ton of those sources that I use. And then in the morning I sit down and go through them to see what's happening. And then you decide what you remember and what you don't remember. I can send you some of those links. Kathleen: Who are your top three sources? How about that? Dan: Top three sources? I'd have to say, so I use a lot of the curated stuff like IAB, the newsletters. I use a lot of those. We use CXL. We use a lot of Harvard Business Review. And then just staying in touch with people. I've got a lot of colleagues in the industry where we talk about what's happening, who's doing what? What worked for your clients, what didn't work, what did you find out? Did you hear about a new study that just came out? You know, those kinds of things. How to connect with Dan Kathleen: Awesome. Well, if somebody is listening to this and they want to learn more about what we talked about or they just want to learn more about you or Hackstone, what's the best way for them to connect with you online? Dan: Hackstone.com. That's our website. We're on social as well. We try to make our social a little more entertaining than the website. The team is a lot less ADD and a lot less all over the place than I am. So they typically will do the talking. So if you're lucky, you won't have to actually talk to me. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Alright, well I think talking to you is fascinating. So if you are listening to this podcast and you liked what you heard or you learned something new, I mean, I know I did this time for sure. This was so interesting. Head to Apple Podcasts and please consider leaving the podcast a five star review because that is how we get found by new listeners. And if you know somebody else who's doing amazing inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, and I would love to have them as my next guest. That is it for this week. Thank you so much, Dan. This was a really fun conversation. Thanks.  

What makes sport superstars our hero’s? We cry for them, we cheer for them and most of us will never even meet them. The best example of this is the late and great Kobe Bryant. Is it their out of this world plays? Is it their celebrity fame? Is it their passion and drive to win? Kobe made us feel like we all had a court-side seat to his entire life starting at 17 years old. To help us understand more about the athletes we love, how they become our hero’s and how specifically Kobe Bryant touched all of our lives. I am honoured to introduce the great Raptors / NBA producer Dan Gladman to the show. Welcome Dan.

Welcome to the “Neuroscience Meets SEL” podcast, my name is Andrea Samadi, a former educator who has been fascinated with understanding the science behind high performance strategies in schools, sports and the workplace for the past 20 years. This episode is available on YouTube and we highly recommend watching the visuals that go along with this interview for a more immersive experience.This is episode #28 with Dr. Dan Siegel, a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine and executive director of the Mindsight Institute where you can find his courses, workshops, books and tools to help anyone understand and apply what can sometimes be complicated scientific concepts and make them easy to understand and applicable to our daily lives. He has dozen books the last time I counted with his most recent parenting book with Dr. Tina Payne called The Power of Showing Up: How Parental Presence Shapes Who our Kids Become and How Their Brains Get Wired[i] coming out Jan. 7th, 2020. Be sure to pre-order your copy as it has already hit the top 20 books in cognitive neuroscience, child development and neuropsychology. Also, he is working on the 3rd edition of his book The Developing Mind. Welcome Dan!Dr. Siegel, I can personally say that I’m a more mindful[ii] parent, more aware[iii] of myself and others, have learned some no-drama discipline[iv] strategies, feel prepared for when my 2 girls reach their teenage years[v], with the reassurance that I don’t have to be perfect, and that I can repair relationships when my buttons have been pushed—all from reading your books the past few years. It’s such an honor to have you here—your influence is significant with the thousands of people around the globe you’ve been helping with your books, mnemonics to remember your strategies, and tools like your Wheel of Awareness Meditation.  Thank you for being so accessible so we can take a deeper dive into some of the important concepts of your work.Q1: Dr. Siegel, before I get into the questions I have for you, I wanted to ask what led you to write all of these books and create tools to help our next generation become more aware and connected to each other?Q2: I know we can’t train the next generation of students for the old world; we must do things differently. On our podcast we have been speaking to leaders about the emergence of social and emotional learning skills in our schools and emotional intelligence training programs in the workplace (with people like Casel’s Clark McKown on measuring SEL to Marc Brackett and the importance of Emotional Intelligence and recognizing and naming our feelings.  I know you have been working with the Blue School[vi] in New York City. What skills do you think have been missing in our schools and how do we bring these missing skills back for our next generation of students so that we can prepare them for success in the workplace? (3Rs and what else is missing?)Q3: When I was in my late 20s I started to study the mind with a motivational speaker and learned some strategies that really helped me as an adult related to thinking positively, having a good attitude, awareness, you know those skills we used to call “soft skills” but 20 years ago, there just wasn’t the research behind SEL and mindfulness. Then I heard you mention that when you began surveying mental health professionals around the world who should know about the mind that “95% of them had never even been given a lecture on the mind, and probably couldn’t even tell you what the definition of the mind was”[vii] ) so you wondered how can we expect to develop it, without this understanding and explore the concept of the mind in your book, Mindsight: The New Science of Personal Transformation[viii] where you prove that you can define what a healthy mind is, not just describe it.In your book Mindsight, you say that “Mindsight is the potent skill that is the basis for both emotional and social intelligence.” What is Mindsight?  What does the research tell us about our ability to change the structure and function of our brain by using this “Mindsight” and how can this potent skill can set up our next generation for success? How are you using “Mindsight” at the Blue School[ix] is NYC? What are some other ways that Mindsight could be used in schools, homes the workplace or any examples you’ve seen in the field of medicine/health?Q4: In preparation for this interview, I did a podcast (episode #23) on “Understanding the Difference Between the Mind and the Brain”[x]  and this episode rose to the top of our episodes, showing me that listeners are really interested in this topic. Can we look at your definition of mind as “an embodied and relational process—since it’s in the body and it’s in our relationships with one another—that regulates the flow of energy and information”[xi]  and can you explain why relationships are so important for our well-being health, and an integrated brain as you describe it? Once we know what the mind is, then how does the mind differ from the brain and what about the fact we have a brain in our gut, not just our head? Q5: We know that in order to have well students in our classrooms, we need well teachers, just as to have well children in our homes, the parent’s mindset matters. We are coming to grips here with what “the mind” is but we still have a society that struggles with health. Can you explain the best way that we as adults can stay on top of our health and well-being so that we can avoid burn-out and also keeping in mind the research you said has come out of Harvard and McGill University with Martin Teitcher[xii] and Michael Meaney[xiii] on epigenetics and how the stress felt by our grandparents can be passed on and impact our lives? How can we take this new research and use it in such a way that we prevent more stress in our lives and our children’s lives and our student’s lives to create an integrated brain versus a non-integrated brain of chaos or rigidity?Q6: I have been practicing your Wheel of Awareness meditation[xiv] for the past 2 months while I have been preparing to speak with you. I actually downloaded it from your website in 2015 but didn’t make this a part of my daily routine until recently. I’ve noticed a huge difference in my own thinking process since incorporating this practice. Can you explain why this reflective meditation is different from using let’s say a relaxation app like Calm.com or just listening to peaceful music? What is happening to our brain as we focus inwardly on the four parts of this wheel? What are the outcomes are you seeing of this practice on society?Q7: Is there anything important that you think I have missed with my questions today to give listeners some tips on how they can be more aware, practice using Mindsight and find a deeper meaning and connection and purpose in this world? Thank you so much Dr. Siegel for coming on the show to dive deeper into your work. I really could talk to you all day, but know I’ve got to let you go. For those who would like to learn more about Dr. Siegel you can go to www.drdansiegel.com (where he has a ton of tools, books and resources that you can use immediately like the Wheel of Awareness Meditation) or find you on Linkedin (Daniel Siegel), Twitter @DrDanSiegel Instagram @drdansiegel and Facebook. He has a new book coming out The Power of Showing Up[xv] in Jan 2020 with Dr. Tina Bryson that I mentioned in the beginning that is already hitting the TOP 20 books before its release! Thank you again for all you are doing to promote well-being and health in the world. You are a true difference maker and it’s been such a pleasure to have this opportunity to speak with you. BIO: Daniel J. Siegel received his medical degree from Harvard University and completed his postgraduate medical education at UCLA with training in pediatrics and child, adolescent and adult psychiatry.  He served as a National Institute of Mental Health Research Fellow at UCLA, studying family interactions with an emphasis on how attachment experiences influence emotions and behavior. An award-winning educator, he is a Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and recipient of several honorary fellowships. Dr. Siegel is also the Executive Director of the Mindsight Institute, an educational organization, which offers online learning and in-person seminars that focus on how the development of mindsight in individuals, families and communities can be enhanced by examining the interface of human relationships and basic biological processes. His psychotherapy practice includes children, adolescents, adults, couples, and families. He serves as the Medical Director of the LifeSpan Learning Institute and on the Advisory Board of the Blue School in New York City, which has built its curriculum around Dr. Siegel’s Mindsight approach.Dr. Siegel's unique ability to make complicated scientific concepts exciting and accessible has led him to be invited to address diverse local, national and international groups including mental health professionals, neuroscientists, corporate leaders, educators, parents, public administrators, healthcare providers, policymakers, mediators, judges, and clergy. I was referred to Dr. Siegel’s work when a neuroscience researcher was helping me to add brain-based concepts to my work and I quickly learned the 3 parts of the brain and their functions and was able to teach others using his “Hand Model of the Brain.” [xvi]WHEEL OF AWARENESS RESOURCE:https://www.drdansiegel.com/resources/wheel_of_awareness/REFERENCES:[i] The Power of Showing Up by Daniel Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson (Ballantine Books, January 7, 2020) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1524797715/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i6[ii] Mind: A Journey to the Heart of Being Human by Daniel J Siegel October 18, 2016 (W.W Norton and Company) https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Journey-Norton-Interpersonal-Neurobiology-ebook/dp/B01CKZM39I/ref=pd_sim_351_2/144-0582078-3016428?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01CKZM39I&pd_rd_r=524a4609-ef8e-4405-b86e-826c0dfe4756&pd_rd_w=lkyDh&pd_rd_wg=Wj12A&pf_rd_p=5abf8658-0b5f-405c-b880-a6d1b558d4ea&pf_rd_r=GC135MTVN7YQ2YKQA8S0&psc=1&refRID=GC135MTVN7YQ2YKQA8S0[iii] Aware: The Science and Practice of Presence by Daniel J Siegel August 21, 2018 (Penguin Group, USA) https://www.amazon.com/Aware-Presence-Groundbreaking-Awareness-Meditation/dp/B07FDGTCRM/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=aware+dan+siegel&qid=1572802485&sr=8-1[iv] No-Drama Discipline: The Whole Brain Way to Calm the Chaos and Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind https://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurture-Developing-ebook/dp/B00JCS4NMC/ref=pd_sim_351_49?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00JCS4NMC&pd_rd_r=083bcdfa-8b36-4f44-8b03-ba1253cda3f2&pd_rd_w=MHy7B&pd_rd_wg=mO3Nq&pf_rd_p=5abf8658-0b5f-405c-b880-a6d1b558d4ea&pf_rd_r=8MRRV2G8KZTD8VCED844&psc=1&refRID=8MRRV2G8KZTD8VCED844[v] Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain Daniel J Siegel January 7, 2014 (Penguin Group, USA) https://www.amazon.com/Brainstorm-Power-Purpose-Teenage-Brain-ebook/dp/B00C5R8378/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=brainstorm&qid=1572803186&s=digital-text&sr=1-1[vi] https://www.blueschool.org/[vii] Mindsight: The New Science of Transformation Dr. Dan Siegel https://www.drdansiegel.com/about/mindsight/[viii] Mindsight: The New Science of Transformation Dr. Dan Siegel https://www.drdansiegel.com/about/mindsight/[ix] https://www.blueschool.org/[x] “Neuroscience Meets SEL” Podcast #23 Understanding the Difference Between Your Brain and Mind for Increased Results https://andreasamadi.podbean.com/e/understanding-your-brain-and-mind-for-increased-results/[xi] Dr. Dan Siegel Defines The Mind Published Feb. 11, 2010 on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEdq04xbHAs[xii] https://www.mcleanhospital.org/profile/martin-teicher[xiii] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meaney[xiv] https://www.drdansiegel.com/resources/wheel_of_awareness/[xv] The Power of Showing Up by Daniel Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson (Ballantine Books, January 7, 2020) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1524797715/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i6[xvi] Dr. Dan Siegel’s Hand Model of the Brain Published on YouTube August 9th, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFw

Why do marketers routinely ignore one big thing that can make or break their marketing strategy? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Dan Gingiss talks about why customer experience trumps marketing every time - and how you as a marketer can create viral customer experiences. Dan is an author, podcaster, keynote speaker, and noted customer experience expert who has headed up social media and customer experience for a slew of Fortune 500 companies. He has made it his business to curate examples of the best and worst customer experiences and distill the lessons learned into actionable strategies for companies looking to take their game to the next level. In this week's episode, Dan shares both why customer experience is so important as well as how marketers can develop a customer experience strategy, including actionable tips on things like writing marketing copy and getting more in touch with what your customers actually want and need. This week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, IMPACT Live,  the most immersive and high energy learning experience for marketers and business leaders. IMPACT Live takes place August 6-7, 2019 in Hartford Connecticut and is headlined by Marcus Sheridan along with special guests including world-renowned Facebook marketing expert Mari Smith and Drift CEO and Co-Founder David Cancel. Inbound Success Podcast listeners can save 10% off the price of tickets with the code "SUCCESS".  Click here to learn more or purchase tickets for IMPACT Live Some highlights from my conversation with Dan include: If you don't have a great product or service, then really no amount of marketing is going to work in the long run. It might get people to buy your product to service, but then they're going to be dissatisfied with it, and they're going to return it, or they're going to tell their friends that it's terrible, or what have you. Today there's no longer such a thing as an offline experience. Any experience - good or bad - throughout any stage of the customer journey, has a strong likelihood of being shared online. 30% of consumers say after a negative experience, that they would post a negative review online, or on social media. But, almost 50% of consumers say the same thing about a positive experience. Being responsive on social media is so critical, especially to the people that are complaining because you have an opportunity to make things right. People who complain, complain because they care. The ones who don't care have already left for your competition. They've already switched providers, and they don't care whether you fix it or not. The best place to start when building a great customer experience is with language. So many companies are using language that frankly, most consumers either don't understand, or can't connect with. One way to do this is by writing marketing copy that is witty (this is not the same as being humorous, which may or may not resonate with your audience). If you struggle to be witty, the easiest way to start is to eliminate jargon and technical terminology from your copy, and then to read what you write back to yourself and ask yourself, "does this sound like something I would say in conversation?" The best way to identify opportunities to create shareable customer experiences is to actually be a customer of your own product. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Visit Dan's website Read Dan's column on Forbes Connect with Dan on LinkedIn Follow Dan on Twitter Listen to the Experience This! podcast with Dan Gingiss and Joey Coleman Listen to the podcast to learn how to build a best-in-class customer experience strategy and hear specific examples of other companies that are already doing it. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth, and I am your host. This week my guest is Dan Gingiss, who is the Chief Experience Officer at Winning Customer Experience. Welcome Dan. Dan: Well thank you Kathleen, a pleasure to be here with you. I'm excited about the conversation. Dan and Kathleen are all smiles while recording this episode Kathleen: I am too. You have such a fascinating background to me. About Dan Gingiss Kathleen: I'm going to just toot your horn for a second, and then I'm going to let you tell my listeners really who you are. But, when I thought about introducing you it was actually kind of a challenge because most people I just introduce with their name and their title, but you are like a customer experience expert, a keynote speaker, author, podcast host, your professional background is fascinating. You've been in senior marketing, end customer experience positions at places like McDonald's Humana, Discover. I mean, I feel like if I was to do a thorough introduction of you it might take 10 minutes. Instead of me rattling on for 10 minutes, can you just give my audience a little synopsis of kind of who you are, and what you're doing today, and also how you got there? Dan: Sure. Well, I should bring you along on the road with me, because that was a fine introduction. I'll take that anytime I get a- Kathleen: My fee is very reasonable. Dan: ... Well, I describe myself as a 20 year marketer. Marketing is at my heart, it's my background. But, some time along the way I really got passionate about customer experience, and part of it is that I realized the customer experience and marketing go hand in hand. I think that the catalyst was when I first got into social media. I had done, in my career, pretty much every offline marketing channel you can think of. I've done direct mail, and I've done newspapers and magazine ads, and package inserts, and all these things. Then, I had started going through all the digital channels. I'd done email, and website marketing, et cetera. When I finally got into social media I realized that, that was the first marketing channel where people can talk back and I thought that was fascinating. That just immediately struck me as, "Wow, this is going to be something different." If you go back to the early days of social media, you see a lot of companies treating it like another broadcast channel. "Hey, I have a great idea. Let's put our TV commercial on Facebook, people will love that." Right? Shockingly, people didn't love that very much, and so the companies that started figuring out that customers talking back was a good thing, that this was an opportunity to get closer with the customer, and to learn more about them, I think became better marketers in the process. Historically we've used voice of the customer, focus groups, and other listening devices to formulate our marketing, to figure out what it is that people want to hear. But, social put it all in front of us, in an easy, analyzable way because it's all in print. And really, I think, just presented such new opportunity to get close to the customer. That fascinated me, and I kind of made a pivot over to customer experience. It helped that the role I was in at the time at Discover, that I was in charge of the website and digital experience, so I was getting into the nitty gritty about how to create experiences that therefore became marketable. And, I started at the same time, with sort of a side hustle of blogging, and podcasting. I eventually wrote a book about social customer care. It was only recently, really 2019, when I decided that the side hustle was killing me because it was taking up so much time on top of a full-time job, but it was the thing that I really loved doing. I decided to finally go out on my own. The feedback I got on LinkedIn, most people said, "It's about time. Can't believe it took you this long." Now I am speaking, and consulting on marketing a customer experience, and I love it. What I'm telling people is, it's a lot more fun working for the Dan, than it was working for the man. Why More Marketers Don't Focus on Customer Experience Kathleen: That's a great line. I am going to quote that. I have so many questions for you, but I want to start with one in particular because this came up once before on this podcast, and it's something I think a lot about which is, to what degree do you think organizationally we undermine ourselves as businesses by setting the goals, or the KPI's, or the yard stick for success for marketing, and have it be so focused on that top of the funnel, that traffic generation, that lead generation? I mean, most of the marketers I see, at least on paper, are measured by the degree to which they can generate qualified leads for the company. There's no incentive system in place in 99% of the cases that I'm aware of, to do anything on the customer end. I feel like there's a structural problem that prevents us from tackling this topic, and I'm so curious to know what you think about that, and if you see that as well? Dan: Yeah, I definitely agree. It's almost like we're putting the cart before the horse, right? If you don't have a great product or service, then really no amount of marketing is going to work in the long run. It might get people to buy your product to service, but then they're going to be dissatisfied with it, and they're going to return it, or they're going to tell their friends that it's terrible, or what have you. You can put tons and tons of marketing dollars behind it, but you have to have that basic, you know, you have to fulfill the basic need of a product or service that people want and are going to enjoy. I think also, you have to have a customer experience that people also want and enjoy. That's the added piece that now today's customer, today's "I have a voice" customer, and today's powerful customer is demanding that they have a great experience as well. You can't just have one without the other. I did an interview with a great guy in my old podcast, this is now a couple of years ago. He runs a series of brewhouses called Scotty's Brewhouse. It's in Indiana, Florida, a couple other states. And, very successful business, his name's Scott Wise. I asked him ... or, he said to me unsolicited, he said, "When people ask me what business I'm in, I tell them I'm in the customer service business." I'm like, "Really? You're a restaurateur, that's an interesting answer." He said, "Dan, I could have the best food in the world at my restaurants, but if I have crappy service I have no customers. No one will come back. If I have good or great food, but amazing service, I'll have a full restaurant every night." He said, "You can't have one without the other, it doesn't work. If I had to choose either one, I would choose a great experience, because if I mess up on somebody's burger but I'm really nice about it and I take care of them, they're still going to come back, right? But, if I have servers that are rude, or slow or whatever, I'm going to lose customers." I think you're right, that we're so focused on that front end. You've read, probably the same stats that I have, about how much money we spend on customer acquisition versus on customer retention, right? Or even just customer engagement. I think that, that ... that, the smart companies are starting to figure out that some of that money should be shifted. Because after all, if we keep more customers then we don't have to be as stressed about bringing on more new ones. Kathleen: It's really interesting to hear you talk about the Scotty's Brewhouse example, I hope I got the name correct. Dan: Yep. Kathleen: Because, it in my head, the echo that I hear when I hear you tell that story is Marcus Sheridan, who I work with at IMPACT. He always says that, "It doesn't matter what company you are, we're all in the same business which is the business of trust." It really doesn't matter what your product is, or your service is. If your customer doesn't trust you, that's like table stakes. The company's with the most trust are the ones that are going to win, and it's almost like customer experience and trust go hand in hand because it's true. These are the universal things that, regardless of what kind of a business we have, what it is we're selling, our fundamental truths about the way people want to spend their money. They want to be able to trust you, they want to have a great experience, and oh by the way, those two things are never ever going to change. They're never going to go out of style, there's no digital trend that's going to make them obsolete. I love that. Dan: Exactly. I'm an unabashed Marcus Sheridan fan. I'm a fan boy. I love Marcus, I love everything he talks about, and he is one of the best speakers I've ever seen. But, you know, what you just said reminds me actually of a story I have not told to other people before. This is a first- Kathleen: Ooh, breaking news. Dan: ... If I could get a drum roll here, yeah. My dad ran a family business for over 20 years. He was in the formal wear business. Those in the United States may recognize Gingiss Formalwear. It's been around for ... it was around for a long time, it's been gone now for a couple of decades. He always used to tell me the same thing that, it doesn't matter what product you're selling. He said, "I never grew up dreaming of selling or renting tuxedos." Right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Because, nobody does, right? But at the same time, if you think about how critical that service was at a point in people's lives, right? They're getting married, they're going to prom, they're having a moment that cannot be ruined. They're placing all their trust- Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... In the company to get everything right. Yeah, I would say absolutely, he was in a business of trust too. This is back in the 80's, in a completely undigital way. One of the things that I also love about what you said is, I believe today that there's no longer such a thing as an offline experience. Now, back in the 80's it was all offline. Today, it sometimes feels like we have offline and online. But, all you have to do is look at the video of a guy being dragged off an airplane to realize that any experience can come online now. When we talk about trust, it's about not just that online experience but also what's happening throughout the customer journey because when you anger, or disappoint, or miss the expectations of a customer, they just have to pull out their phone and take a picture of it, or take a video of it, and share it. Now, you're dealing with many other people who are disappointed. Kathleen: Yeah. Not only can those quote/unquote, "Offline," experiences go online but, the worse or the better they are, the more likely they are to go online. Dan: Absolutely. Kathleen: You don't hear about the "meh" experiences, you hear about the really terrible ones, and the really great ones. Yeah, I mean it's fascinating to me just, I mean you hear a lot about the really terrible ones. People are really incentivized to post when something doesn't go right. It should serve as a really good incentive to make that experience great, because that's your one chance to control that conversation that you mentioned earlier. Dan: For sure. I just want to say because I talk about this a lot when I'm on stage is that, people ... you're absolutely right that people are willing to share both the positive and the negative. One of the things that I try to teach companies is how to create more positive experiences so that you can tilt that sentiment. I came across a great statistic recently that I love from Sitel Group. This was out of their 2018 CEX Index. What they found was that 30% of consumers say after a negative experience, that they would post a negative review online, or on social media. But, almost 50% of consumers say the same thing about a positive experience. Kathleen: Hmm. Dan: Which, means that people are more willing to share positive experiences than negative ones. The problem is, as I'm sure you know as a consumer as well, we don't have very many positive ones. Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: We don't have enough that are so ... On our podcast we like to call them "remarkable experiences," literally worthy of remark. If you think back to the last time that you had an experience with a brand that was so great that you wanted to tell all your friends about it, it just doesn't happen very often. But, if you think back to the last time a brand disappointed you, you could probably come up with something that was more recent. What I love to think about is how as brands, can we create more and more positive experiences to get people talking since they want to talk about, we just have to give them something to talk about. A Real World Example of How Great Customer Experiences Can Make a Lasting Impression Kathleen: Oh, I could agree more. I feel like sometimes the negative and the positive come hand in hand. I think I mentioned to you when we first spoke, I had, when we were talking about great customer experiences. I had one, this was years ago now, but it will always stand out in my memory. Actually it's funny, I've had two from the same company. I'm going to give them a shoutout right now. Both are from UPS. The first was when I used to own an agency, we had a daily UPS pickup that was the lifeline of our business because in addition to marketing services, we sold branded products, swag. We had to ship things, and hit deadlines for clients. So, UPS coming every afternoon was essential, we counted on it. I remember we had a big shipment going out one day and they didn't come, and we called our UPS business rep and he was like, "Oh, it looks like there were some issue in your billing, and so we froze the account." We were like, "Well first of all, wouldn't you call when that happens and not just not show up?" I remember it was a Friday too, so we were like, "Oh my God, this has to get resolved now because we're going to lose two days over the weekend." Long story short, the business rep couldn't solve it. He didn't have enough juice. They were like, "Oh, we'll fix it but it will take 48 hours to reset in the system, and then the truck will start to come back." We were like, "Mm-mm (negative)." I remember I went on Twitter and I tweeted something about how grumpy I was about this, and I got a call ... or, I got a DM first from UPS corporate. They said, "DM us your phone number." I did that. Within 15 minutes I had the head of UPS's social media on the line and he was like, "I'm going to fix this for you now," and within an hour everything was fixed. It went from being a really horrible experience to being an amazing one, which I was happy to sing to the world about. Then funny enough a few years later, we sponsor Midshipmen, so I live near the Naval academy in Annapolis Maryland. We have Midshipmen who come to our house on the weekends and things, they become part of your family. Two of our Mids -- a guy and a girl that had been dating for ages, and we knew he was going to propose to her on this two day visit to Annapolis before they got deployed to Afghanistan -- they were in our house, and I was in on it, on the whole plan. He had it all mapped out, and the ring was like out for delivery, and wasn't coming in time. We had a great relationship with our UPS driver and so my husband called him on his cellphone and was like, "Here's what's happening." The ring was being delivered by somebody else, but our driver went out of his way to go find the other driver, get the ring, deliver it to our house so that he could propose in time before they had to deploy. Kathleen: I mean- Dan: That's amazing. Kathleen: ... Talk about just unbelievable stories, both from the same company funny enough. But, the first one really made me think like, just how often sometimes those incredible experiences can come out of what might have been a really terrible one. Why Negative Reviews and Complaints Are Actually a Good Thing Dan: I love that, and I mean I don't know if you were intentionally teeing me up here, but that's basically what my book is about, right? Is that- Kathleen: Yep. Dan: ... Being responsive on social media is so critical, especially to the people that are complaining because you have an opportunity to make things right. Click to tweet I always say that people who complain, complain because they care. The ones who don't care have already left for your competition. They've already switched providers, and they don't care whether you fix it or not. But, people who have a legitimate complaint, I'm not talking about trolls here who are swearing. Kathleen: Yeah, or like looking for a free gift certificate to a restaurant. Dan: Yeah. I mean, people that have a legitimate complaint want you to fix it, that's why they're letting you know. They care enough to let you know, and I think that certainly when we started off, companies were afraid of complaints, which I thought was a big mistake because complaints also give you great insight into what you're not doing right, into where you're missing customer expectations. You might think that some piece of your experience is working just swimmingly, but you’re not sure your customers think that and here they are giving you this free feedback. To me, that's incredibly valuable. Yeah, tons of stories of companies that have started off with an angry customer, and turned them into an advocate. I've had it happen at all three of the Fortune 300 companies I worked for, and it's always nice to see because it kind of proves the value of being there for your customer through thick and thin. Kathleen: Yeah, and I know I've read over the years a couple of different times that there was data to support this. You can probably even cite the stat, if I had to guess. But, I've read that like companies that have no bad reviews are, people don't perceive as being as trustworthy as companies that have some bad reviews. I think it had to do with Yelp or something, and that the relationship capital you build by having a problem and then solving it well, is so much greater than the relationship capital that you build by never having problems in the first place. Which, is counterintuitive, but- Dan: For sure. It's for sure. I was thrilled when I got my first three star review on my book on Amazon, because they had all been five until then. It's not believable, right? Kathleen: ... Yeah. Dan: There's no perfect product. The person that gave me a three star review gave me, I thought very valuable feedback about what he liked and didn't like about the book. I of course responded on Amazon, because I practice what I preach. Yeah, that to me, that adds so much credibility. Then also, I wasn't offended, right? I mean, if my book didn't land perfectly for him, I'm sorry about that but I also very much value the feedback of why it didn't. Because, then when I write my next book I'll be thinking about that, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: I think that as companies are ... it's almost like you have to put the ego aside a little bit to be willing to hear what can be tough feedback. It's just like in the business world when we have our year end review with our boss, right? A year end review that says, "Hey Kathleen, you're the best, you're awesome, you're terrific, keep doing what you're doing. Here's a two percent raise," doesn't give you much, right? Because, you don't know, there's nothing for you to go, there's no action items. But, a review that says, "Here's three things you're doing really well Kathleen, and here's three things I want you to work on in the next year," is so much more valuable because how often do you get that feedback from somebody? Where somebody's willing to be honest with you and say, "You know Kathleen, if you could just work on these three things, I think your career could go so much higher." I mean to me, that kind of feedback is a gift, and it's in a gift in the corporate world as well because sometimes we can't see through our own rose colored glasses, right? We all think our own product, and service, and experience is fantastic, and it's very difficult to see otherwise especially because you get things like ... I remember when I first joined Discover, I had the option of getting an employee credit card. I intentionally did not choose that option, because I didn't want to be treated like an employee when I called customer service. I wanted to be treated like a regular customer. Because, I mean imagine when the CEO of Discover calls customer service -- they probably roll out the red carpet for him, right? He's not getting a legit experience, and I really wanted that, to see it from the customer's perspective which I thought was so much more valuable. Kathleen: Well, I couldn't agree with you more about your point about feedback. I always think you need to be suspicious of the people that never have anything constructive, or even negative to say. You don't want to, in life or in business, surround yourself only with a bunch of yes men. It's not healthy, and it's not real. I really appreciate you adding that to the discussion, because it is so important. Building a Customer Experience Strategy: Where To Begin Kathleen: We talked a little bit about the why, this is so critical. The audience listening to this podcast is usually marketers. Can you talk a little bit about from a marketing standpoint, if somebody hasn't really considered customer experience as part of their strategy, where do they start? How do you define that? Is that just managing the conversation on social, or is it more wholistic? What are the elements to taking a marketing approach to customer experience? Dan: Yeah, I mean I think that it's a couple of things. First of all, as consumers we often don't like being marketed to. Let's start there, and be honest with ourselves, right? Is that, when we're scrolling through our Facebook feed, we're not excited when an ad pops up. No matter really who it's from, occasionally maybe it's from a Starbucks, or a Coke-A-Cola, or some brand that we really, really love, we're okay with it. But, for the most part, it's interruptive. If you start, and this is where I'm going back to what I said about sort of putting your ego aside. When I ran Discover's website I used to remind my team, "Look, nobody wakes up in the morning wanting to go to a credit card rep website. Zero people do that, right? So we've got to make that experience as quick, and painless, and easy as possible." I think with marketing it's the same thing. You have to understand where you fit into the world of your customer. Now, how can you make your marketing an experience? Which, is one of the things that I really love. I would suggest the place to start is with language. I think that so many companies are using language that frankly, most consumers either don't understand, or can't connect with. There was a recent study done by a company called Visible Thread that looked at the top 50 banks in the US, and actually scored their marketing on a readability score. Kathleen: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dan: They calibrate the readability score based on famous books. They looked at everything from Moby Dick, which is a very hard to read book, to Harry Potter, which is a pretty easy to read book. Then they ranked banks marketing on this same score. What they found is that what you want on this 100 point scale is, you want to hit at least 50 which is an eighth grade reading level, which is basically the average reading level of the American consumer. You want to hit a 50. The top 10 banks in the US hit something like a 51, and everybody else was far below that which means that they're speaking in a language that literally their customers don't understand and can't comprehend. I saw the same thing in the healthcare industry. There was a really interesting study that interviewed 2,500 Americans and said, "Do you know the definitions of the following four words, deductible, co-payment, co-insurance, and out of pocket?" Kathleen: I'm getting a headache just thinking about those words right now. Dan: I know you are, I know you are. Well, three quarters of Americans said they knew the definitions, but then the researchers said, "Okay, prove it and give us the definitions." I'll cut to the chase, only four percent of Americans could define all four of those words. Yet, every major healthcare company uses those words in the quote/unquote, "Explanation," of benefits. Which, I laugh at because it's neither explanatory nor beneficial. Kathleen: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dan: But, so that's where I would start. I think there are lots of cool examples of what I like to call, I use the word "witty" as being where I think you want to aim. It's not about being humorous, because I may tell a joke that I think is funny and you may find offensive, so I'm very careful about humor. But, I think witty is a good place to be. Examples of Brands Nailing Customer Experience With Witty Copy Dan: Let me give you a couple examples with witty. There's a wonderful sign in Manhattan for a retailer, and people who have walked the streets of Manhattan have maybe seen this sign before. It says, in big bold letters, it says, "We are probably the lowest priced in the city." I love that, right? I don't even know what this company sells and I already love this company, right? Because, I know that their honest- Kathleen: Yeah. I was going to say, it's pretty honest. Dan: ... I know ... Yep, I know they're honest. I know they have a sense of humor, right? Already, so they're fun. You've told me so much about this business, and I don't even know what they sell. That's how powerful words can be in marketing. There's a sign I love to show that is at the bottom of a huge skyscraper in Chicago and it's got some arrows and it says, "Almost there ... Please use other entrance." I looked at this and I was like, "You know, that was two words. The almost there, that made this from a sign that was completely unremarkable, to one that made me smile." Because, somebody took the time to add those words, "Almost there," and it was now a fun sign instead of just a tactical sign. I think this can come, this can happen anywhere in marketing. There's a gas station near my house where the big sign outside with the price says, "Unleaded 2.99." Then, where they ... the place where they can put the letters up and write something it says, "Customer service, priceless." Again, think about the expectations that, that gas station has already set. This is going to be the friendly gas station, this is going to be the one that the person inside greets you with a smile, because they believe customer service is priceless. These are very simple, inexpensive, really free ways to change your marketing to create a different experience, and that's where I suggest people start. How To Craft Witty Marketing Copy Kathleen: And, any advice for the marketer who might be listening and thinking, "Ugh. I just don't, I'm not witty. I don't have the talent to think of these things." Are there any tricks, or things that people can do to start getting more in that mindset? Dan: Yeah. I mean, the first is just eliminating the words that are industry jargon, or acronyms, right? I wrote about that bank study because I had seen somebody post on LinkedIn, a bank ad which was an email. It was a subject line. The subject line had seven words in it, and three of the words were acronyms. It's like, I mean come on. That is not ... the post on LinkedIn was a guy quoting his daughter who had received the email and she said, "Is this even English?" That's where I would start, is I would look at the language that you have. Again, if you don't want to be witty, that's okay. But, you can look for industry jargon, you can look for big words and turn them into small words. I'm a prolific writer, I blog all the time. But, I was never real good at the verbal side of the SAT's, so I never thought of myself as having a really large vocabulary. But, as it turns out, I believe it makes my writings more readable because I'm just speaking in normal words. I'm not using big, scientific, or long words to make myself sound smart. I'm just, I'm writing like people talk. Therefore, it's easier to consume, and I think marketers can absolutely do that. I remember my high school teacher used to say, "Read your words out loud-" Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... "And, hear how they sound." You should do that with marketing, right? If you're reading your marketing out loud, you're going to catch things that don't sound right, and you can make them simpler that way. Kathleen: Amen. There have been a few times where I have filled in for the person who heads up our editorial content for our website, and I've had to review draft articles that people have submitted to us. Once or twice I have gotten articles that were nonsensical that literally I was like, "I need to send this back to this person and just tell them to read it out loud to themselves, because I have no idea what they're trying to say. It doesn't make any sense." They would know that if they just took a minute, and like read it, you know? Even if they didn't read it out loud. It's amazing, I think, how often we create content and we don't take the time to even review what it is we've created. I love those tips, and I think that's a great place to start. Eliminating the jargon, almost like writing as though you're talking to a friend, or a family member, what have you. Moving beyond messaging then, what would be kind of the next step for that marketer looking to really take a better approach to customer experience? Why Viral Experiences Are Your Best Marketing Dan: Well, so I'm going to sort of turn your question around, because I believe that you have to ... just as we said before that you have to have a great product or service to market, you have to create the experience first, and then it becomes your marketing, not the other way around. And so, I believe it's about how do you create a, as I said before, a positive experience that people want to share? Then, you have other people doing the marketing for you first of all, which is awesome, right? Because, we all strive for this word-of-mouth marketing, this elusive word-of-mouth marketing. It's not going to be found in a viral video. Any of us that have worked in corporate America have heard a C level executive ask us, "Well, why can't you just create a viral video?" Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Because, that's not how it works. But, what you can do is create a viral experience. You could create an experience that people love so much they want to tell people about it. I think there's a couple things that you have to do in order to create such an experience. One of them is to be really intentional about it. It's to -- as you build the experience -- to think about all of the places that people may be willing to share. We talk about certain meals being Instagram worthy, for example. Well, I believe that the chefs are creating them that way intentionally, right? Kathleen: Yes. Dan: Because, they want people to share them. I'll give you an interesting example here. There's a company called Sip Smith, it's an alcohol company. It's mostly known for its gin. It's a London based gin, and it just recently came to the United States in the last, I don't know, year or two. Or, at least it came to Chicago in the last year. I was at a local Chicago festival and they were doing a tasting. Now, most of the time when you go and get a taste of a wine, or a beer, or an alcoholic beverage of some sort some person hands you a little plastic cup, and you take a sip, and you either like it or you don't. You throw out the cup, and you move on. Sip Smith didn't want to have that kind of experience, so they built an immersive experience where you walk up to this bar, there's a bartender behind it with bottles of Sip Smith Gin. The first thing is, he asks you what kind of tonic that you want. Now, I didn't know I actually had a choice of tonic, so here I'm already learning something, right? Well, there was Mediterranean tonic, and European tonic, and standard tonic, so I choose one of the tonics. He then points me over to a garnish bar. Kathleen: Hmm. Dan: Now, a gin and tonic usually has a lime in it, right? Pretty basic. Well, this garnish bar had about 18 different garnishes. Everything from lemons and lines, to dried strawberries, and peppercorns, and ginger, and rose petals, and all this stuff. You could create your drink, but they didn't stop there. By the way, I did the math in case anybody was wondering. There were over a billion combinations that you could make. Kathleen: That's awesome. Dan: They didn't stop there. The next thing they did is they sent you to a table where you could grab a little miniature card, and name your drink. Right then- Kathleen: That is so cool. Dan: ... They keep it on the card, and they gave you a little tiny clip that you could clip to your cub so that as you're walking around with your beverage, you're advertising the name of your drink to everybody. Of course, what do people do? They clip the name to their cup, they take a picture of it, and they share it on social media. This whole experience was intentional. It was meant to be immersive so that it was meant for you to try their product in a realistic setting, which is not drinking it out of a plastic cup straight, because most people drink gin that way. But, it was immersing you in the way that you, you exactly you, independent, unique you would drink it. Because, I might drink it with European tonic and a lime, and you might drink it with Indian tonic and a strawberry. But, we all can do it our own way. But, it also was intentionally shareable. It was done in a way where once I personalized it with a name of my drink, of course I wanted to take a picture of it and share it with people. That's, that to me is how ... Then, it makes marketing's job that much easier, right? Because, you have everybody else sharing, and talking about your brand. Then, really all marketing has to do is get in the conversation and say, "Hey, thanks for sharing. We love you too. You guys are great." It becomes, it makes marketing's job a whole lot easier. Kathleen: Well, for the record when it comes to gin and tonics, I am a Fever Tree Elderflower Tonic and lime kind of a girl. But, that's amazing. I inexplicably have a craving right now for gin and tonics and it's before noon. Dan: Sorry about that. Kathleen: But, that sounds incredible, it really does. It's not like a very expensive way to engage. If you're already going to be there, you're already going to be offering samples of your product. It's not a huge leap from a budget or an effort standpoint to do what you described. That's a great example. Dan: Yeah. I mean, I'd say the biggest example of all time of shareable word of mouth marketing to me was the share a Coke promotion, right? That had all of the names on the bottles. If you think about that, that was a reasonably sized operational undertaking. Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: But, what I thought was so interesting about it was that it continued to evolve over time. The first time they released the names on the bottles they got a lot of people loving it, and sharing it, and happy. But, then they got people with different names who were unhappy- Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... That there name wasn't on there. So, they went back and they created a whole bunch more, several thousand more names were added. Because, once they were doing it, it wasn't hard to add names to it. But, most recently, and I don't know how many people have noticed this. But, most recently they made another change. The names are no longer on the actual label of the product, they're on a sticker that you can peel off of the product and actually share it with the person. Kathleen: That's very cool. Dan: If you think about it, if I got a bottle of Diet Coke that had "Kathleen" on it, if I drank that bottle and then tried to hand it to you, you're not really excited to receive it, right? But, now I can just peel off the sticker and hand you your name, and I think they made it even more shareable. Kathleen: That is so cool, and I have never seen a Kathleen coke. If you find one and you're listening, send it to me. Dan: Challenge accepted. How To Create Viral Customer Experiences Kathleen: Yeah, exactly. That's great. The question in my head is then, if it's really about starting by creating the experience, as a marketer how do you suggest that somebody approach that? Because really, you're talking about getting your tentacles into theoretically, many different parts of the business, you know? You're talking about production, if it's a product, when you talked about Coke. It could be getting involved in sales. There's a lot of crossover there that I think can scare the average marketer. Any advice for how to approach that organizationally so that you get buy in, and you're able to go down that path? Dan: Yeah. What I would suggest is that you make sure that you're the customer of your own product, and service and, that you are an engaged customer so that you're experiencing the whole journey. A great example from Discover, we had a feature on the card that allowed you to turn the card on and off if you felt like you had lost the card in the sofa cushions. That was a feature that had been there for a long time, but it took our CMO to literally realize that, that feature existed and say, "Wow, this is really cool. We should be telling people about this." Then the marketers came in and did their thing, and named it, "Freeze It." It became a huge television campaign, and it became sort of one of the lead features of the card. Since then, most of Discover's competitors have copied that feature. But, all it took was somebody observing something that was already there about the experience that was remarkable, but that nobody was talking about. I think that's where I would start as a marketer is say, "Let me just be a customer here, and find the places that I really need, and the things that make us different and better. Then, let's figure out how to talk about those things. Often times those things already exist. I think in other places, you can as a marketer, also be willing to let other people be marketers. I don't mean tactical, sending out the emails marketers. What I mean is, you can let the lawyers be marketers, right? There's some great examples of legal disclosure that's actually fun to read, right? I mean, think about that for a minute. That's mind blowing. Legal disclosure that's fun to read. There's a company out of Malaysia called Iflix, it's like an Asian version of Netflix. In that typical disclosure that you see in emails where it says like, "If you're the unintended recipient, you must give us your first child, and delete the message," and whatever. Well, their disclosure starts off with the words, "Covering our butts." Now, if covering our butts doesn't get you to want to read that disclosure I don't know what does. I read it, and you know what? The whole disclosure is hilarious, and you can tell that a lawyer and a marketer, it's like on a joke. "A lawyer and a marketer walk into a bar." Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: It's like, the two of them sat down together and they said, "Okay, the lawyer said, 'This is what you must say.' Then the marketer said, 'Okay. I'm going to take what I must say, and I'm going to add to it, and make it fun, and make it engage-able.'" I think that's where marketers have to be more willing to sort of take the time to say either, "Here are the places that are already remarkable, let's talk about it." Or, "Here are the places that are completely unremarkable that we can make remarkable in a simple way." Kathleen: I love that example you just gave, and I wish I could remember the name of the company (And I did! It's called Squaremouth). But, sometime in the last few months I heard about a company, and I think it was a big company, that halfway through their disclosures, or their privacy statement, or one of those horrible documents that nobody reads. Halfway through it they added, "If you have read this far, you can win X." I want to say the first 10 people that responded got a free trip somewhere, because they just literally read that far into it, and found this random paragraph. It was like, "Congratulations." Dan: That's amazing. Kathleen: "Nobody reads this, but because you did we're sending you to Hawaii." Dan: Well, so that's a great story. I immediately ask the question, if we know nobody reads this, then why are we doing it? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: You know? It's like- Kathleen: To cover our butt. Dan: I remember ... Yeah, to cover our butts. Yeah, but I remember a number of times in corporate America, the marketers often looked at the lawyers as sort of the other side of the table, right? The guys that were stopping us from doing what we really wanted to do. I always reminded my team that the lawyers were there to keep us out of jail, so we want them to do their jobs really well. But, it doesn't mean that we have to produce any content, and disclosures are content, right? I mean, disclosures are there because what's the legal reason they're there? It's to cover our butts, but it's also because we want to inform customers about certain limitations to our product, or in the pharmacy world, certain side effects or whatever it is. This is important information. When you think about it from that perspective and you put on your marketers hat you say, "Okay, so what if I actually want people to read the disclosures?" Holy cow, that's different, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Today what we do is we say, "Well, what's the smallest font size we can put the disclosures in so that hopefully people will read past them?" Kathleen: No one will notice them. Dan: Right? I say, don't do that. Ask yourself, what if the disclosures were in 30 point font? What would you say, and how could you say it in a way that actually gets the message across in a way that's beneficial to your customer? Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: Oh, so interesting. I feel like I could sit here and just pick your brain all day long. Unfortunately, we don't have all day. I have a couple questions for you that I want to make sure I ask before we wrap. The first is, this is the Inbound Success Podcast, a lot of the listeners here are interested in inbound marketing. I want to kind of bring inbound marketing together with customer experience, because that's really the whole point of this conversation. When you think about the world of brands, companies, marketers out there, who do you think right now is really nailing it when it comes to marrying the two, an inbound marketing approach that also delivers a phenomenal customer experience? Dan: Right now I am obsessed with a company that, in full disclosure, I am a customer of, called Imperfect Produce. It's a company based in San Francisco, and it was founded by a couple of guys who were noticing on their college campus that a ton of food in the cafeteria was going to waste. They created this company, what they found after investigating was that we actually have a pretty big food problem in the United States, which is that tons, and tons, and tons of food on farms, perfectly usable produce, gets thrown into the landfill. Mostly because it doesn't look pretty, it's nice enough for supermarkets. They started a company where they ship out boxes in a subscription service, of what they call ugly fruit. Often times, it's not ugly at all. It's just surplus, or it's a little bit big. Sometimes you get like a comically large cucumber, or you'll get really small pears, or something like that. But, they're not disgusting. In fact, they're wonderful inside. What I love about what they're doing is first of all, they're using the witty part. In their marketing there's a billboard in Chicago that says, "We'll help you get dates," and it's got pictures of actual, of the fruit, and with smiles on there, kind of animated smiles. They're very witty about that. In their social media they use food puns, and stuff like that. They're very brand on. When you get their box, you literally want to look at all sides of the box, including the bottom of the box which has a really fun message on it. Again, this costs nothing, right? They're already printing on the box, so just print everywhere and make it so that it's usable. But, the part they're doing on the experience that I think is awesome, is they are actually tracking for me, my individual contribution of how much produce I have saved from the landfill, how much water I have saved, and how many pounds of carbon dioxide that I've kept out of the atmosphere. I'm just going to brag for a moment. In the last year I've saved 385 pounds of diverted produce, over 15,000 gallons of water, and 1,300 pounds of carbon dioxide. I love that, because you're creating again, this immersive experience. You're marketing to me, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: That's marketing. You're telling me, "Hey Dan, you're doing a great job. Pat on the back. By the way, stay with us and have those numbers go up." Right? I want to share that with people and say, "Holy cow, I've saved 385 pounds. That's so cool." I just think they've -- from beginning to end, from prospecting, to communicating with their existing customers -- I think they're doing such a great job of being on message, consistent. Obviously they provide a great product, and that's important. But, this continuous reminder of you're not just doing it because the food tastes good, you're doing it because you care about the societal impact as well. I think that is a perfect combo for me. Kathleen: I love that example, and I'll make sure to give them a big shout out in the show notes. If you want to check them out, head to the show notes and there will be a link in there. Separate question, the world of marketing is changing so quickly, social media is changing literally every day. I feel like it's a total fire hose if you're a marketer, to try and keep up. Personally, how do you stay on top of all of this? What are your go-to sources to make sure that you're up to date on everything that's going on? Dan: Well, I would say that partially due to the success of your organization and others like Marcus talking about it, I think there's so many sources today that it's almost impossible to keep up. I've actually moved towards using aggregator services like Apple News or Flipboard, because I find that so much easier than remembering to go to my 10 favorite websites every day to find news. I tend to search by keyword and topic, versus depending on any specific source every day. I don't know if that's disappointing to inbound marketers, it might be. But I think, again, it's a result of the fact that so many companies are so focused on inbound marketing now, and are doing a good job of it. We have more great content out there than ever before. But, to me what I'm finding is, I can find it in all sorts of places, so why limit myself to a single couple, one or two sources? Kathleen: That's so true. There is so much information out there, and I think you bring up a good point for marketers which is that, yes, you need to be creating really great, helpful content, and have it on your website. But, don't overlook the fact that not everybody's going to come to your website to find it, and look at these other channels. You mentioned Flipboard, I'm a big fan of Flipboard. Look at these other channels and see how you can get your content there too. My feeling has always been, as long as people are consuming your content, it really doesn't matter where they're doing it. Dan: Absolutely. How to Connect With Dan Kathleen: Love that. Well Dan, thank you. Again, so much good stuff. I love all the stories, and the concrete examples of companies doing it well. If somebody wants to dig deeper into this, what's the best way for them to learn more, maybe read some more of these stories, maybe get your book? Dan: Well, I write for Forbes regularly, and this is what I focus on. In fact, Forbes requires you to create a sentence, one sentence that describes exactly what you do on Forbes. My sentence is, "I write about how customer experience can be your best marketing." If you head over to Forbes and do a search for my name, you can see all of the, including some of the examples that I just shared with you. But, people can also find me on my own website which is DanGingiss.com. It's G-I-N-G-I-S-S. You can find information about my book there. I also host a podcast called Experience This, where we tell stories all the time about companies creating remarkable experiences. And, of course because I practice what I preach, if you get in touch with me on Twitter @DGingiss I will respond and get back with you. Kathleen: I love it. All those links will be in the show notes, so head over there if you want to check those out. Thank you again Dan, it's been so much fun. I've learned a lot today. You Know What To Do Next... Dan: Well, thank you Kathleen, it's been a lot of fun for me as well. Kathleen: If you're listening and you learned something new or liked what you heard, as always please consider giving the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. If you know somebody whose doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork, because they could be my next guest. Thanks for listening.

From Surrey, UK we welcome Dan Sadler. You only have to look as far as his twitter profile (@daaaan100) to see there is a story to be told (Able bodied wheelchair racer converted to bike riding after an interesting incident involving a lorry. Strange, since most do it the other way around.) Welcome Dan! Get in touch at cyclingtimetrialpodcast@gmail.com or @markflorence11 Thanks for downloading the show!

Welcome Dan really appreciate you taking time out of busy schedule can you give us your background and how you came to run empire sales? Over the years, I have been fortunate to have worked in London, Sydney and now New York with highly talented people at high growth, innovative companies including GE Capital, Thomson Reuters, LinkedIn, Sprinklr and now my own company Empire Selling. Launching the social selling business unit at LinkedIn, bringing LinkedIn Sales Navigator to market and creating LinkedIn’s profile optimization program for sales professionals ‘Resume to Reputation’ afforded me the opportunity to meet thousands of sales leaders and sellers around the world across all industries. It was a lot of heavy lifting but was blessed to be recognized by Onalytica Research as one of the leading ‘social selling influencers globally’. My experience as VP Sales at Sprinklr expanded my knowledge from social selling with LinkedIn to social selling and marketing with Twitter, Facebook and other social channels globally, the broader web, video and mobile technologies. Sprinklr is now valued at $1.8bn. What gets me out of bed every morning? Coaching people to realize their true potential allowing them to provide the best lives for themselves and their loved ones. I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. 1) What is social selling? • Social selling is about leveraging your social network to find the right prospects, build trusted relationships, and ultimately, achieve your sales goals. • Ensure connecting with Right people, Right accounts and deliver Right message. • This sales technique enables better sales lead generation and sales prospecting process and eliminates the need for cold calling. • Building and maintaining relationships is easier within the network that you and your customer trust. 2) Why is this so vital in today’s buying cycle? • Buyers conduct 70% of their research and qualification before even speak to a sales person. They are seeking to find trusted partners. • Your company and personal brand is vital currency. • Sales automation bombarded with poor quality content. • BRING HUMAN BACK INTO THE SALES PROCESS. • Today, marketing is only driving 30% of the total sales leads. • To be successful, sales reps need to have their own lead generation solution to hit quota and achieve sales goals. • However, the traditional long process of sales prospecting and cold calling are limiting sales professionals to efficiently find high quality sales leads. • It wasn’t long ago that cold calling was a necessary sales prospecting technique. 3) How do gain buy in from senior sales leaders and overcome resistance to change? • Sales leaders know many activities don’t work as they used to. • They need a new play book. • Need to solve for the future – play to their self-interest. • Adaption is not about age it is about mindset, who get business and integrate the social aspect. Empire Selling is the world’s only company-wide social selling methodology. We help companies align internally for explosive growth externally. Companies that infuse our methodology into marketing, sales and business operations win more customers and deepen relationships with existing ones. Our programs challenge conventional thinking, are easy to implement and show immediate results. Find us at: www.empireselling.com dan.swift@empireselling.com

Welcome Dan really appreciate you taking time out of busy schedule can you give us your background and how you came to run empire sales? Over the years, I have been fortunate to have worked in London, Sydney and now New York with highly talented people at high growth, innovative companies including GE Capital, Thomson Reuters, LinkedIn, Sprinklr and now my own company Empire Selling. Launching the social selling business unit at LinkedIn, bringing LinkedIn Sales Navigator to market and creating LinkedIn’s profile optimization program for sales professionals ‘Resume to Reputation’ afforded me the opportunity to meet thousands of sales leaders and sellers around the world across all industries. It was a lot of heavy lifting but was blessed to be recognized by Onalytica Research as one of the leading ‘social selling influencers globally’. My experience as VP Sales at Sprinklr expanded my knowledge from social selling with LinkedIn to social selling and marketing with Twitter, Facebook and other social channels globally, the broader web, video and mobile technologies. Sprinklr is now valued at $1.8bn. What gets me out of bed every morning? Coaching people to realize their true potential allowing them to provide the best lives for themselves and their loved ones. I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

"Cogenitor".   Gender: a word that seems simple at first, and in days past had a limited definition. But as with all language, the meanings of words change with use and context. Dictionary.com defines gender (in relation to life forms, and not grammar) as: 1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior:the feminine gender. 2. a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity. Enterprise's twenty-second episode of season two dives into this construct called gender, and could arguably be the most important episode of the series. At the time of airing, it was considered very forward-thinking; today, it could be considered eerily prescient.  In this episode of Warp Five, hosts Brandon-Shea Mutala and Brandi Jackola are joined by special guests Dan Deevy of Gaaays in Spaaace and Barry DeFord of Politreks to tackle the episode "Cogenitor". They discuss friendly encounters, the difference between gender and sex, Andorians mating in fours, imposing human cultural values on another civilizations, necessity bringing about change, and whether they think Archer was right to deny asylum to the cogenitor. Chapters Intro (00:00:00)  Welcome, Boomers! (00:01:31)  Welcome Dan and Barry! (00:02:23)  Disclaimer and Points of View (00:03:40)  Star Trek: Generations (00:06:50)  First Contact Without Charging Weapons (00:08:40)  3% (00:12:35)  A Third Gender (00:18:15)  Gender is a Social Construct (00:26:30)  The Needs of the Many... or the One (00:37:08)  Cultural Values (00:51:15)  What Would Archer Do? (01:01:45)  Asylum (01:13:43)  Final Thoughts (01:20:28)  Closing (01:34:08)   Hosts Brandon-Shea Mutala and Brandi Jackola   Guests Dan Deevy and Barry DeFord   Production Brandon-Shea Mutala (Editor and Producer)  C Bryan Jones (Executive Producer) Matthew Rushing (Executive Producer) Ken Tripp (Executive Producer) Norman C. Lao (Associate Producer) Floyd Dorsey (Associate Producer) Mike Morrison (Associate Producer) Tim Cooper (Associate Producer) Justin Oser (Associate Producer) Mark Flessa (Associate Producer) Chris Tribuzio (Associate Producer) Jim McMahon (Associate Producer) Richard Marquez (Production Manager) Tony Robinson (Show Art) Brandon-Shea Mutala (Patreon Manager)

Pineapple cider topped off anime arguments with @Penclique co-host Kuya David! We get Fat and Welcome Dan's partner in poetry David back to CF! They get deep into marketing trends and incest porn during all the Chubby Fat games.

Welcome Dan. The history of passion fruit, and chit chat over the bottle of wine.. Anna takes yoga from a stoned instructor, Noah vs Grand Budapest Hotel, Andrew and the erotic fire of the unattainable…and forgettable orgy… Dan’s 2 degrees of snooky and the great parts of new jersey, and the abundance of sports in his life. Drinking at 9am on Zog wine trip,

Our guest Daniel DeBaun, co-founder and CEO of Defender Shield, shares the science behind many of the technologies we use today and the potential dangers of Electromagnetic Frequencies (EMFs), such as immune suppression, heart cancer and ADD. He also shares his top tips you can start practicing today to protect yourself and your loved ones, and how a simple trick can lower your exposure immediately. *SHOW NOTES:* 1:21 Welcome to the show 1:55 Daniel DeBaun’s Bio 3:18 Welcome Dan! 3:52 How he got started in the industry 5:35 Radiation Nation book 8:11 The cover-up & controversy 10:00 Digging into the research 12:06 Link to frontal lobe & heart cancers 13:02 Neurological impact & changes on kids 14:00 Correlated biological changes with EMFs 15:57 STUDY on pregnant women 17:08 Power of WiFi & cell phones 19:14 Cell phone & impact on egg health & fertility 21:01 Fitness wearables & Bluetooth 23:25 Constant cell-phone transmission 24:19 Socially-distant tech 25:11 What exactly is EMF radiation? 27:30 WiFi vs 4G/5G 30:05 4G + Immune suppression & Gut microbiome 34:16 Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity 35:15 The Cell Danger Response 37:28 Evidence about cell phone to brain disruption 39:23 EMFs blocking melatonin response 44:22 The downside of EMF meters 46:09 Tops tips to protect yourself 47:25 Defender Shield solutions 49:54 How shielding protects you from EMFs 52:22 Dan’s one piece of advice 53:55 Do other EMF protectors work? 55:45 Thanks for joining us! *RESOURCES:* Book: Radiation Nation ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0998199605/ref=as_sl_pc_qf_sp_asin_til?creativeASIN=0998199605&linkCode=w00&linkId=15d702a06ce3c64a36a4204dc9a56f97&tag=laurensamba04-20 ) DefenderShield.com ( https://www.defendershield.com ) - use code BIOHACKERBABES for 20% off IG: Defender Shield ( https://www.instagram.com/defendershield/ ) Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/biohacker-babes-podcast/donations