Podcasts about russell it

In this episode, Russell and Alison answer the question "How do we get CERTAINTY as entrepreneurs?" Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast and we are getting to the end of the Q A's from the ECON versus experts smack down. They've been so much fun. I should do more Q A's. Do you guys enjoy these? If so, let me know and we can try to do more of these live. I was nervous about doing them and I had the time in my life doing them. So this next one is really good question. The question is how do we get certainty as entrepreneurs? Even us entrepreneurs or risk takers, right? By definition, we don't live in certainty. We are jumping off the cliff trying to go crazy and do these different things. But the certainty is also what gives you the ability to move forward and to be okay with the risking and trying. And so there's this yin yang between those two things, right? Certainty and risk and entrepreneurship and how do they all work together? And so this was from a young entrepreneur who had just dropped out of college and was taking the risk, but then like craving certainty and was like, "what do we do and how does it work?" And so I hope that this question helps any of you guys who are in that situation where you know to be a successful entrepreneur, you got to be a risk taker, but you also need certainty in your life. In between those two things, how do they all work together? So hope that this question helps you guys. And with that said, we'll key the theme song. When we get back we'll find out how to get certainty as an entrepreneur. Brent Coppieters: All right. This is from Pietro. And his question, "Is it normal to feel like you are you having too many callings in life? Being called out to serve too many different dream customers?" Alison Prince: Oh my gosh. Are you guys watching his face? Russell: Yeah, what up dude!? Brent: There he is. Russell: How are you doing? Alison: I've seen your comments come in like fire. So I'm so glad you got called to a hot seat. This is so fun. Russell: Can we turn his audio on? I want to hear him. Alison: I was so enthralled in watching him, I forgot what the question was. Brent: If he un-mute himself, we can do it. Russell: Yeah. Un-mute yourself we can hear you. Pietro: Oh My God. Guys. This is the second best day of my life. Alison: Wait, what's the first thing? Pietro: I'm so fired up! Russell: What was the best day of your life? Pietro: When I decided to drop out of uni. So university. And start my own business. Russell: Nice. Pietro: Six months ago. Not telling anyone to do that, but I'm proud of it. I'm just proud of it. Russell: That's awesome. So the question then is you feel like you're called to serve a whole bunch of people and you don't know which who to serve first. Is that the question? Pietro: Yeah, kind of. So the first part of the question is, how do we get certainty as entrepreneurs? I mean, we are risk takers and having certainty it's completely opposite. It's really hard. Especially for me dropping out, having everyone against me in this choice, but still being able to actually come up with something in a relatively short period of time. And yeah. I mean there's risk and there's certainty, but they don't go together. Russell: Yeah. So certainty doesn't come from, I'm going to be certain, Certainty comes from.... I'm a wrestler. So for me, certainty came from me stepping out on the mat, shaking the person's hand and going to war, over and over and over and over again. And guess what? First few times I got beat up, I got beat up. I got beat up. I got beat up and then I started getting better. I started getting better and then I won and then I went again. I want again. And then I lost again. And Certainty is crafted in the fire. Right? And so wanting to get certainty before you step into the fire is not going to happen. Cause you got to step out and be like that guy wants to kill me. I want to kill me. I step up to the mat and here we go. And you get the certainty by stepping into the fire, shaking hands, and going for it. And so, that's what's hard just because it's... There's a book in our church it's called Faith Precedes the Miracle, right? You want the miracle, but you can't wait until I'm going to get the miracle eventually, I know faith precedes the miracle. You got to have faith to take that step before the miracle shows up, before the certainty shows up. And so you have to go in there and it's hard because it's like, what's going to happen? What if I fail? What if I, what? And you might fail you, are probably going to fail. Most people fail the first and second and third, the fourth fail. Mine did. Right? But it's like, okay. I believe in the process. I believe in the path. I believe in my calling, therefore I'm going to step out there and I'm going to get beat up. And then I'm going to step out there again and get beat up. Step out there again and get beat up. And keep doing it over and over and over again until you start winning. And that's when certainty starts coming. That's when you start feeling comfortable and it keeps growing. Me seven years ago, I thought I had certainty, right? My very first Funnel Hacking Live I thought I had certainty, right? I look back now at that little kid who was like, what were you doing on stage teaching people about stuff? You were an idiot back then. Right? And so my certainty gets better and it gets better because I keep going into the fire and into the fire and it gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And so just knowing right now, six months ago, you probably have more certainty now than you did six months ago. Cause now you stepped out in there, right? Okay. In six months from now it's going to be better. Pietro: Yeah. Russell: It's going to be better. But it's just continuing to step into the fire. To go out there and go for the next match. The next opponent. The next person. And every time you do it, win, lose or draw. That's how you build and how you forge your certainty. Pietro: I bought "The Out within the Battle" book yesterday and I read it all. And I find myself going on the faith path. But having on my shoulder a shit ton load of fear and it's like, oh gosh! What am I going to do now? Russell: Yeah. Pietro: And What if I cannot pay the rent this month? And wow. Russell: Yeah. Okay. This is good. Yeah, because those are real fears. Yeah. I had a friend who was a chiropractor and he had spent his entire however many years going to chiropractic school. And then he opened a practice and he bought all the equipment and all this stuff. Right. And he started launching the practice and then nobody showed up. He kept trying and kept trying and trying. And over, I don't know, however many months. And then a year. It got worse and worse. The point where he was down to the bottom. And I still remember because it was 11 at night he called me, woke me up. He's like, "dude, I need some help." I'm like, wait. It's like my company's failing. I'm going to declare bankruptcy. And he's freaking out. He's say, come and help me. I need, I need one of your marketing secrets. And I was like, oh, okay. So I get up, I get my clothes on. I drive to his practice, we sit down and he tells me like all this stuff. And again, he's waiting for me to be like, here's the nugget. Send this email to your list and you will magically be rich. And I told him, dude, I got nothing for you except for this. What is the worst case scenario? Worst case happens, what is it? And he's like, I don't know. I'm like, you have to face that fear in the face and you have to become okay with it. If you can't become come okay with the worst case scenario, you're going to have it. And you know, the monkey on your back is there, but you try not to face it, but you always have this fear of it being there. And because of that, it's going to keep you from taking the steps you need to take. You got to be able to look at the worst case scenario and become completely okay with that. I said, so what's worst case scenario? He's like worst case scenario, I have to declare bankruptcy. I'm like, cool. And why would that be so bad? He's like, because then I lose my house. Okay. Then what would you move to? He's like another house. I'm like, okay. And then what would happen? "Well, my in-laws would think I was a failure to their daughter." I'm like, okay. Are you okay with that? "Well I guess that's okay." And then what else? So he lists out all the worst case scenario. So I'm like, okay. So if everything fails, that's what's going to happen. You're going to lose your house. You're going to have to move out. Your in-laws might think that you're a failure for a little bit, but then you have a chance to rebuild. Can you be okay with those things? And it took us a while util, he was like, "Okay. I think I can do that." And I said, okay, now you have the ability to move forward. And that was it. I left. The next day he came out and he's said, "I was able to now start making good decisions and step forward because if I fail, I was okay with that." And that's the key. It's interesting. Have you seen... Sorry, Batman reference. Have you seen the third of the Batman series where he's fighting Bane? So remember he breaks his back, puts him in this pit and he's down in the pit and he is getting the hill up and no one's ever escaped this pit. Right? It's like climb up this thing to get out of this pit. And it's almost impossible. And when they do is they tie rope around their waist and they go and they try to jump out of the cliff to get out. Right. And there're rumors that one person ever, ever escape from this pit. Right. And everyone talking about the rumors. And finally this old guy tells Batman's, the only person ever escaped from the pit was little kid. And they did it because they didn't put the rope around their waist. And so Batman and the guy said, the problem is that they have this rope around the waist and they're jumping, knowing , I've got this safety net, right. We talked about burning the bridges. I have rope, that's going to keep me here. And so they kept jumping, but because they have the rope, they know that they're going to okay. And they don't go hard enough. And so Batman decides, okay, I got to do this. He cuts the rope off, climbs up freestyle and then leaps. And this time he is like my life depends on this. I have nothing holding me back. I've got nothing. Worst case scenario, I'm dead and I'm okay with that. Let's go for it. And he jumps, catches the thing. Gets it out escapes. Saves the world saves Gotham and he's Batman. So, but the moral of that is, if we have this rope that's holding us back we're not going to take the leap we need to do. So we've got to stop look back and say, I'm okay with that. Okay. I've had three or four times in my business career that have been ups and downs. And when the downs are happening is when I started freezing up. And it was me getting very clear with myself saying, okay, worse case scenario that happens. Am I okay with that? Can I deal with that? If that happens, what's my life going to look like? When you look at it, it's actually not that bad. Yeah, it'll be annoying, embarrassing. But, it's really not that bad. I'm not dying. You're like okay, cool. I can deal with that. Okay. Now rope's gone. I can jump. And now you have a chance to do it. And maybe you do fail. Maybe you do go bankrupt. That's okay. It happens. That's the greatest thing about this country is the bankruptcy laws. The founding fathers, who I believe are inspired from God gave us these rules saying worst case scenario, you lose everything. It's not like you get thrown in jail for the rest of your life. You have a chance to reset and start over. Right. Most entrepreneurs I know who have been successful, have gone bankrupt. At least once, most of them multiple times. It's not the end of the world. So become okay with the worst case scenario and then go out there and live your calling, live your mission, jump without a rope and have some success. So, that would be my recommendation. I don't know if you want to add anything to that but. Pietro: That was awesome. Alison: Yeah. That was really, really good. One thing that I've seen entrepreneurs do and I do it all the time is, I think I need to be here, when I actually just need to take that first step. So you were talking about, you have a lot of different things that you want to do and you don't know what you want to do. So you're trying to figure out how to put them all into one thing and it's overwhelming. Right? I believe that God only gives me a half step. I don't even get a full step. I get a half step. He's just saying, will she take it? Will she take it? When I started e-commerce if I would've seen this big vision of me standing on stage with Russell Brunson, Russell: I don't want to do that Alison: I wouldn't have not started. Russell: I'm out. I'm out. Alison: Yeah. My brain could not handle that. So I wasn't given this big, huge dream. Mine was just a half step and a half step. And that helped me to create the clarity of where I needed to go. And as I look back over it, I'm so glad it was just given to me step by step. Half, step by half step. Because if I would've gone out sprinting and I'm sprinting in the wrong direction, that's a heck of a lot more of a boat change or a run change right, than if I just step into it a little bit at a time. And actually a lot of times I know entrepreneurs, they're just given a little bit, a little bit of faith. Are you going to take that faith? Are you going to take that faith? And then our mind just becomes more clear. Did you think that you'd ever be standing in front of 6,000 people on a stage? Russell: My goal wat to make a 1000 bucks a month. That was my entire goal getting started. If I made 1000 bucks a month, I can keep resting and then my wife can keep working. That was it. That was the grand vision. When I got started. Alison: Mine was $200 a day. Russell: Nice. Alison: I think a little bit more than yours. That was my vision. Russell: She's more aspirational than me, but yeah. Russell: Yeah. Alison: Does that help? Pietro: Yeah, guys, yeah. It's so much value here. I don't even know what to do with it right now. So I probably am going to watch this over and over and over and over again. And yeah, I love you guys. Thank you so much. Alison: I don't think you're going to be able to sleep tonight. Pietro: No, I didn't yesterday and for sure, I'm not going to tonight as well. So, Russell: So cool. This is the most, I don't know. It's funny. I remember going to conferences back in the day and I was in these rooms, that are stuffy rooms. And I'm the little kid in the back freaking out, "This is amazing!". Why are people not more excited? And so I remember I started doing this stuff I want to make business exciting, because it is. This is the coolest stuff in the world and a chance for me to talk about and play with it. But when all is said and done, I had this conversation last week with my team, we're sitting there, we're stressed about something and everything and I kind of stopped everyone for a minute. I said, you guys don't understand. This is just a game. We put on like this is life for death. Da,da,do... No, this is just a game. We're going to die eventually and right now we have this window of 10, 20, 30, 40 years, who knows how long? We're occupying brains and trying to make ourselves productive and help people along the way. This is just a game. None of it actually matters. So when you look at it from that point, this is the game I'm playing. I'm going to figure it out. It starts becoming more fun and more free as opposed to, "Oh, I got to figure this out!". And people get so rigid and stiff. And then they're too scared to do anything. No, look at it differently. And it becomes fun and it becomes exciting. And now it's not I tried something and I failed. It's I tried something and I learned. Alison: Yeah. Russell: Right. I remember I had this call with Tom Bilyeu. Tom is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. We were talking about identities. And he said, that all of us have an identity and a lot of times we have to shift our identity, right? When you guys come into our world, we try to shift our identity to become a funnel hacker and entrepreneur. He said, sometimes we create identities for ourself that are very, very limiting right? Where you might have an identity, "I'm a world class wrestler." "I'm the best entrepreneur in the world." This is the identity that I have. But then what happens is you create that identity and you hit it and something fails. All of a sudden, you think, oh my gosh, I'm a failure because I didn't live up to my identity. And Tom, so smart. He said of all the identities you can have. There's one identity that trumps all the others. And he said, this is my identity. Because I take on the identity of the learner. He's said as the learner, you can't mess up. Because if I fail, I learned. If I succeed, I learned. No matter what happens as a learner. I have this ability to keep moving forward in life, through all the ups and the downs, because my identity is, I'm a learner. So I'm looking for the learner. I'm looking for the learning and failing, looking for success, looking for everything. And that way, I never feel like a failure because I'm always learning. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's such a cool, mind hack of like, how do I shift my identity to I'm a learner. And you guys are obviously learners, you're here. But this is the path and the process. That's the key, the identity that trumps all others is the learner. So anyway, I thought it was a cool nugget from Tom that I keep thinking about it my head over and over and over again, because I get in the thinking sometimes where I'm this and this and then something happens and when you think that you're whatever and you fail. For me a long time I thought, "I'm going to be an Olympic wrestler." That was my goal and when I didn't hit it, I thought, oh my gosh, I failed. I'm a failure. And all of a sudden the darkness that comes with that is unbearable. Right? Because, I spent my whole life on this mission and I failed. And it's just coming back to shifting to, I'm going to be the learner and man that opens up everything. And anyways, it's pretty powerful. Alison: And don't you think if you just sat with that thought on your own, it would've destroyed you. But because of the community that you have around you, what you've built around you they're like dude, Russell, no! Look at all this stuff, right? Russell: Yeah. Alison: We are meant to be in a community. We are meant to support each other. The lone world is, I don't want to be alone. There's a reason why we love talking to each other where we connect with certain people. It's because we lift each other up in the darkest moments and then we get to celebrate the heck out of each other at our highest moments. And Russ and I were talking about this, we talk about this all the time, but when we hit these amazing successes, I'll say Russel, blah blah blah! And he says that's so cool. But if I go tell some of my friends who don't understand the business world, they don't understand what we've gone through. And it's not so much a celebration. I love when I get to celebrate with Russell. I love to hear when our students succeed. That's so fun. We just forget to celebrate along the way. And that's something that we really... Come on, share your celebrations. Russell: Yeah, that was one of the weirdest things that I found when I got into this business, starting success. I thought that as I had more success, everyone was going to celebrate that in personal life and it's the opposite. Alison: Yep. Russell: I'd have success and I'd go tell my friends and my family who around me. And they would say, ah. Cause for them, you're growing, you're changing, you're evolving. And they say, ah! Stay back here. They don't do it consciously. I don't think they do it viciously. But man, they say things. They throw things out where it feels uncomfortable for them to see you grow. And that's why I think one of the big reasons why I would say entrepreneurship is the loneliest job in the world. Cause most of us , unless you're in a family of entrepreneur is different. But if you're not, usually it's probably just you. For me, it was just me. My wife wasn't an entrepreneur. People around me weren't. It was me on my wife and I's first little apartment on a computer by myself. I had this vision, I had this dream and it wasn't until I got into a community of other people, oh my gosh, first off, I'm not weird. Like there's other people like me. But second off, when I had successes, none of them, there wasn't ever that weirdness, it was always, oh my gosh, that's so cool. Cause it was inspiring, they wanted to keep moving up with it. And I think that's one of the biggest things. Just understanding that getting around the right people, it shifts your mindset, shifts your beliefs, gets you the permission to celebrate. We're now having these successes, isn't a bad thing. It's not weird. Instead, it's yes, this is good. These are good positive things. And so my goal is to get you guys to plug into this campfire as much as you can, right. Stay around where it's warm. Everyone's in here. This is a community that's amazing. And so we've tried to build that again. The Funnel Hacker community is amazing. It's a huge community. But, there're different levels of it, right? There's all these funnel hackers in the world. Then every year, there's about 6,000 that come to Funnel Hacking Live. That circles smaller and it's an amazing community. And inside of that, there's about 600 that join 2CCX. And that circle's smaller and we're tighter with them. Inside that there's about 100 inner circle. And from that, there's 15 inside of Category Kings. And so as you get closer and closer, the groups are smaller. They're more intimate. People that are more crazy. We call this program, the one percent crazy. Alison: Yeah. Russell: Because they're little crazy. You're going after things that don't make any sense to the rest of the world. Right. But you believe in them. We believe in them and that's the power. So, getting in those communities, you have a chance to be around the people at each step, right? You ever have conversations with people who are at the same level as you? Again, every level of the conversations are different, right? 2CCX are certain conversations. When you graduate from that you get to Comma Club level. Where now moving into inner circle, which there're different conversations we're having because we're different problems, different things. Every opportunity you have creates new problems. And so right now you guys are in a spot where this is the program you need. This is the thing that's going to get you to that next step, to the next tier. It's going to give you the people, the coaches, the mentor, the direction to get you to the next step of the process. I'm excited for you guys.

Q&A from the recent “Ecomm Vs Expert Smackdown”. Ben Moote asked a question about imposter syndrome. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Good morning, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers podcast. Today's episode, probably the next couple episodes, I'm going to do some Q and A. And the way we actually did this Q and A was kind of fun. Alison Prince and I did an event last week called the E-comm versus expert smack down. We had some hot seats and some hot seats were very specific to whatever topic we were talking about. But some of them were things were, I think would just help everybody. And so I'm grabbing some of these clips of our responses to hopefully help you guys. So the very first one actually was a question asked by Ben Moote, and he's someone who used to work for ClickFunnels way back in the day, and then has gone on to go out there and he creates products and services and he's published his stuff and he's been at all the events and he's doing the work. And he asked a question about imposter syndrome. And I know this is one that I think everybody struggles with at least in some point in your career. And so I thought it was powerful and I thought it'd be useful for all of you guys to hear as well. So we're going to cue the theme song. We come back, you're actually going to hear Brent Coppieters on our side ask the question and then Alison and I will respond to it. And hopefully from that, you get a nugget or two that's going to help you out in your journey along the way. Thanks so much. And with that said, let's cue up the Marking Secrets theme song. Who's up next? Brent Coppieters: Okay. This is from our friend, Ben. So this goes to, again, the mindset that you guys have just touched base on. And I appreciate Ben just being really open and honest about this question. So I'll give you a little bit of context here, and then I'll ask the question. He says my belief that things are scarce and that I don't deserve it are so strong that I am actively losing so much money, so much opportunity to give and serve, close friendships and more. It's wrong, but it'd break me to break that belief. So it's this belief he's got. So the question is what has been the most successful path that you've chosen to kick that negative inner voice in the mouth and move forward? Russell: Imposter syndrome, right? This is something that people hear all the time. Like, I feel like I have imposter syndrome. I don't feel worthy. I don't feel ready. I don't, those things that happened in all of our heads. And I got to be completely honest with you. Yesterday, I couldn't sleep night before this whole event started. Why? I was freaked out. I was scared to death. It doesn't matter what level you're at, you're always nervous. You never feel ready. You never feel worthy. You never feel... Like every funnel event, backstage, I'm like, oh my gosh, why are people here? I'm a little kid. I don't even know what I'm talking about. What if they see through me and they don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. And it's just all these things keep happening. And I have to come back to like, look, it's not about me. I think that's the problem is that we try to put it all on our shoulders. And when you realize it's not about you, it's like, I'm here to serve those people. That's when it starts shifting for you. And for me when I'm backstage, when I was here yesterday before I came out, I had to consciously get in this thought and I do it through prayer. I do it through thinking, through whatever it is. But I'm thinking, okay, I'm nervous. I'm anxious. But this is about me, and this is not about me. This is about these people who have been called to serve. And if I don't step in and don't serve those people, that's not what I want either. And so it's trying to get out and it's, I understand. Because it's hard and it comes back every single time. It's not like, oh, I kicked that 10 years ago and it's done. No, every single time. Every time people, like FHL before I go out, every presentation I get nervous. You still get nervous? I'm like every time, because I put it on me. What if I mess up? What if they don't like me? What if I talk too fast? What if I slur... And I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like, it's not about me, not about me. And I start saying prayers for myself. I pray. And I'm like, please help me to be able to serve these people. Please, when I'm talking or I'm saying something, let the right things show up so that I can deliver it. Because it's about their experience, not mine. And so for me, that's the biggest thing. Because it doesn't go away. At least it hasn't for me yet. I'm hoping someday it does. That'd be amazing. But it's shifting from me to them. And when you start shifting that, it takes the pressure off your shoulders because you're realizing it's not about you. And if it was about me, I'm not talented enough to actually do what I do. Suzanne isl fully aware, I am not that talented. I'm not that gifted. I'm not a good speaker. I slur, I talk too fast. Like even my wife last night, she's like, I jumped in for a little while. She's like, you were talking so fast. Can people understand you? I'm like, oh crap. I don't even know. I hope they can. I'm not that good. But I've just learned so much like, I've been called to show these people. I'm probably going to mess up, half are going to hate me by the end. Some are going to be confused. But there's a group of people who they're going to hear my voice. That's the goal. And so like that shift is what gets me out of that. And so I think hopefully partially to help give people comfort, it's like, we all feel, I still feel it, heavy. And the bigger the thing is, the heavier it is. Number two is like some personal validation for you. I told Stephen Larsen, this is the first product I've ever bought from Stephen Larson ever was the product you and him did together. So you're creating good stuff. You're making good offers. You're doing good. So hopefully that's validation for you as well. It's like, oh my gosh, I got Russell to go run and find his credit card on New Year's Eve at two in the freaking morning. And then the order failed and he kept trying, kept trying, because he wanted the thing. He didn't want to miss out on it. So, you made a really good offer. I was up at two in the morning buying your guys stuff. And so, hopefully that's some personal validation for you as well. Alison Prince: One thing, I remember the first time Russell asked me to speak on stage. Guys, I did e-commerce for a reason, so I could hide behind my computer screen. And so Russell asked me to speak and I just remember all this fear that I had inside of me and what Russell goes through. I've seen it behind, I see him dancing. We were doing pushups yesterday to get the antsiness out. It's a real thing and it doesn't go away. But one thing that I've done is I picture that fear holding me down. And so I'm like, if I can figure out how to get rid of that fear, offload that fear, then I can step into who God needs me to be. And so you'll notice when I come on stage for the first time, I'll hug Russell and he doesn't, you don't know that I do this, but in my mind I'm like, okay Russell, you're holding my fear for me because it's too heavy for me. Russell: Oh my gosh. Alison: And he walks off the stage and then I feel lighter. And so it's a visual thing for me. And then even at Funnel Hacking Live, my 12 year old was on, because I want them around this community. He was there, comes to me, he said, "Mom, I got your fear. I'm going to hold your fear for you." And it was recorded and it was so sweet. And so that's kind of become a thing for us of when our kids do something hard or when I'm about to go on stage or present on an online thing and they can see the nerves, they'll come to me and they'll say, "Mom, let me hold your fear. Go step into who God needs you to be right now. It's not about you. It's about everybody else." And I think that has helped me tremendously, that visualization. So thank you so much. And I'll hold your fear. Russell: Now I know. I'll be offstage like, just kidding. Brent: That's cool. And I wonder too, Alison, maybe you could just talk for a minute about momentum coaches a little bit here and what they do and how they help. Alison: Yes. I can't tell you how much momentum coaches have helped me personally. And it was such a big thing for me. That's why I was like, Russell, we have to have these for our people. The coaches have been trained to understand these feelings. And just like Camille was talking about earlier, some of the stuff that she's going through and the pressures that she's feeling, she hops on a call with a momentum coach, you have two a month and you get to talk to them. It's not in a big group. You can talk about how you're feeling. We've actually had people come on and say the momentum coach was actually worth the entire cost of the program because it helped them with that, like this limiting belief that you have, it is holding you back, this momentum coach is the one that can actually hold that fear for you. And help talk you through that so that you can step into who God needs you to be. Like you needed to be there for Russell. You needed to be there for him. And the momentum coaches are there to help you through that process, to help you understand why you're feeling the way that you feel and break that down for you. No, they're not psychologists or any of that stuff. They're life coaches, but they're trained in the business world. They're trained in the entrepreneurial world. They understand the higher the level, what do they say? The higher the level, the higher the devil, right? They understand that process. And they're there for us. I know I won't go through the program, my business, without them. Russell doesn't do it. And so that's why we wanted to provide it for you. So hop on a call with that momentum coach and they'll talk you through it. And like Russell said, it doesn't go away. That's why these momentum coaches don't go away. They show up with you time and time and time again to help people deal with this. Russell: To help people understand too, the personal, like when my business had grown up really, sort of started really big and the whole thing collapsed. And I was like, mentally, it's like, oh my gosh, I'm a failure. I messed up, all these kind of things. And it was the first time I hired a coach and it was coach Mandy. And I hired her. My friends was like, I have a friend who's a coach, do you want to hire her? I'm like, duh, but I don't do that thing. Like I'm not a... But I hired her as a coach and it was like, man, so much work to get my brain and my mind to a spot where I could continue to move forward and have success. And so when I launched Inner Circle, one of the big selling points, I was like, everyone's coming to Inner Circle at this time to learn marketing. But I'm like, most people are great at marketing. They understand it, but there's something here that's keeping them from the next level and the next, next level, next level. And so I hired coach Mandy full-time and she works with all the Inner Circle members. That's who your coach was when you came in. The same thing, like 90% of the work was working with coach Mandy to get people out of here. And I'm like, oh, and then by the way, do this on your funnel. It's like, boom. They explode. And it's like, oh, I was in my own way this whole time. And so when we launched this Funnel Hacking Live, that's when Alison brought in this amazing team of people who are our coaches who are doing that now for you. Because it's, like I said, I think a lot of times you guys are coming for marketing or for funnel, but like that stuff's in the books, like read the book. It's usually you getting belief in the process, in yourself and the next thing, actually doing that is the key to each level of growth. Brent: Thank you, Ben. Alison: We understood that. Brent: Thank you, Ben. Appreciate that, buddy. So glad you're here with us. Russell: He's so sweet. Brent: Yeah, he's awesome. Alison: And that's another, sorry, that's another thing. I feel so blessed to be able to work with people in the 2ccx program, be able to hear their stories and to watch them go through this transformation. I just, I feel very blessed, honestly, to be able to work with those that are willing to take that risk to change the world. Russell: It's awesome. Brent: You know, I think Russell, and I appreciate that Alison, I shared with you other day someone who posted on our Facebook group about how they jumped on a hot seat with you a few weeks ago. They told their team, we're upping our prices. Russell says we up our prices. They went on vacation for two weeks, came back. And I think what, they added like another $22,000 a month, I think, to their business just by raising their prices from your suggestion. Russell: One suggestion, they covered the cost of the program every month for the rest of their lives. And it'll keep going from there. Because that was the beginning. So cool. Brent: So good. Thank you. All right. We've got time for just one or two maybe questions left. Alison: No, can we do this all day? Brent: Might as well. Russell: Would they want that? Brent: Are you guys enjoying this so far, by the way? Is this fun to see? Alison: Oh my gosh, everybody exploded. Russell: And I'm hoping like, obviously we're talking to certain people, but my guess, maybe I'm crazy. My guess is there's more than one person who feels like Ben does. There's more than one person who felt like, so my guess is, my hope is that all of you guys are gaining something personally for yourself. Like, oh my gosh, like that's how I felt. I remember the first time I went to a Tony Robbins event and Tony does all these interventions with people. And part of me is like, I want an intervention, but I'm like part of me is scared to death. I don't want him to look into my soul and do his Tony thing. But as he's doing it with all these other people, I was like, oh my gosh, he's speaking to me, he's speaking to me. And all these things were like the aha's I actually needed. I was like, oh, thank heavens I don't have to be in the hot seat, but I still get the value of it. And so hopefully you guys are getting that as well. Alison: And another thing, this is I actually what we do in the 2ccx program is we do these hot seats. And they're usually a little bit smaller groups and we can really dive in to help your business. So this is just kind of like a sampling, but we do it consistently over and over and over again. And people have multiple hot seats to help them too, because you have different sticking points throughout your business. It's not just the one dial tone that you need to get that clarity. You're going to need help in a month. That's just what business is. Because we can't stop. We have the goal post here, and then the next one and the next one. When you put out the Two Comma Club award, I'm like, I got to get that thing with the expert side. And then next year you're like, we're doing the- Russell: Two Comma Club X. Alison: Two Comma Club X. And I'm like, I got to get that one. You've got the 25 and then you had the give the million dollars away and we just keep moving our goal post. And to be able to get to those goal posts, you're going to run into new challenges. And that's why this program is like month after month after month. Russell: Yeah. So fun.

The skill set for building an effective team is WAY different than the skills needed for marketing and sales. For one, you have to learn how to become a true LEADER. So the two key questions to ask yourself are 1. Who do you have to become to lead a great team? And 2. What are the critical strategies you need to implement to get your team onboard to follow your vision? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everyone? This is Russell, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today's episode, we're going to be talking about building a team. How do you do it? What are the pitfalls? What are the pros, the cons? And some of the things that I learned along the way. Hopefully this'll help you as you're building out your team to be able to do whatever it is you're trying to do in your life. Whatever your mission, whatever your goal, whatever the business you're trying to build. I hope that this episode will help you as you're thinking through it, to help you to build the team that's going to get you to the finish line. So with that said, I'm going to cue up the theme song. We come back, you have a chance to listen in on a cool interview, talking about how to build your team. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast, I'm here today with Josh Forti and we've been having fun today. The last two episodes- Josh Forti: We have. Russell: We recorded went longer, but- Josh: It's been fun. Russell: I think they've been fun. So today will be a little bit shorter episode, but it's something that, again, Josh brings things that I don't ever really typically talk about. So it's been fun to talk about some of the stuff like I think about, but I've never really verbally shared. So do you want to set up what we were talking about today? Josh: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so very specifically here, I want to focus for you specifically. The question is, well, leadership and team building, what are some of the biggest shifts around building a team and becoming a leader? Because as someone who built a team myself that failed miserably, it wasn't that we hated each other, but it's just like, it was chaos. When you're trying to manage like six or seven different people and they're all like contracting everywhere. And now I'm like kind of going back and rebuilding. And I'm building it right and I have full-time people that we're bringing in and going. And it's like, man, the skillset of making money, the skillset of being a marketer is way so totally different- Russell: Yeah. Josh: Than building a team. And even being like the attractive character and building a following, like building a following is a completely different skillset than it is of growing a team and being a leader and things like that. And so I guess like two part is number one, who did you have to become? And like, secondly, what are like some of the hacks, tips, or I know you like secrets. So what are some of the secrets that you use to build a team and really like sell them on the vision and like really make sure that they were thriving in that role? Russell: Cool. So I want to just second what you said, building a team is way different than all the other things. And I've struggled over the years. I have an amazing team, as you guys know, if you've seen everything. And I wouldn't say most of it's because of my own doing, I'll talk about some of the stuff I've learned along the way. But it's a different skillset. And I think making money is an easier skill, I think creating a movement of people that are following you is different. I always tell people, like I'm such a good leader and communicator to like my tribe and I'm not as good to my internal team. It's interesting. And so a couple things that I'll share again, I don't have this perfect. And if you ask people on my team, like Russell's not perfect at this because I'm not. But I'll share some of the things I've learned because I'm always trying to figure this out and trying to get better at it. One of the biggest lessons I had and I did a podcast on this probably two or three years ago. Was this realization that I had to make a transition. Because I was always like the All Star. Like if you look at basketball, like I was the All Star, like I was really good. I could write copy, I could build a funnel, I could drive traffic, I could sell from stage, I could do all the different things. And so I was like, Michael Jordan out there and I'd be on stage, I'd be doing, I'd be dunking and slamming and three points. And like just amazing and people would tell me how great I was and I loved it. And then I start building a team. And so I started building a team, but the problem is that as I was building a team, I still thought I was Michael Jordan. So I'd build the team and I'd be in there, all of a sudden, I'd have the person writing copy and they'd be going up with the ball, about to do the layup. And I'm like, "Ah, I could actually do it better." So I grab the ball from my own teammate and rip it out of their hands and I'd go dunk it like, "Ah." And I would get everyone cheering for me again. Or someone would be coming down ... I'm trying to get these analogies working. But basically what's happening is that I was the All Star and- Josh: That one worked. That analogy worked. Russell: That one did work? Okay, good. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I was trying to bring in other All Stars. But the problem is I'd bring these All Stars in and then as they were trying to perform, I'd be like, "I can do it better." And I would take the ball from them because I want to be the All Star. And I had this realization, like for me to actually build a team, I cannot continue to be the All Star. And this is hard- Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For achievers like us, especially for someone like me. Like I was the achiever, I had done all the roles because I had built the company by myself initially. It was me doing all the roles, so I learned all the roles, I got good at all the roles. And so as I started trying to like bring on these different All Stars, it was tough. It's kind of like if you watch the All Star game or like the dream team. Like all of a sudden you got like the best players on a team and usually they're not the best playing with each other because they're all the All Stars, they all want a ball hog and it gets really, really difficult. And so I had to make this realization, like if I'm going to be successful growing a team and getting click funnels from hundred million to a billion dollars, like I can't continue to be the All Star. I have to retire and I have to become the coach. That's a hard transition. Because now you're coming back and like you're successful, not now by your skillset, but you're successful by like cultivating other people's skillsets. And that's a different skillset to have, by the way. Like it's way harder. For me, it's always been easier for me to go and like to do the thing. Like I'm finding it now with I'm coaching my kids wrestling. And I'm watching my kids, I'm watching the team and like, man, I was such a good athlete. I'd go out there, I'd kill myself, I'd work so hard and I was an amazing athlete. But it's way harder for me to coach other athletes because I can't give them desire, I can't give them these different things. And so that was difficult. And so that's the first thing to realize is that if you're going to start growing a team, you have to be willing to like take your Jersey off and say, "I'm no longer the All Star, I am now the coach. And I've got new people." And that's been the hardest thing for me and I still struggle with that, I still like jump back in. I'm like, "Ah." But that's the key, if you want to get a good group people around you. Because otherwise if you're the one that's taking the ball from him, from the other people on the team, the All Stars are going to leave you. Like they're not going to stick around, they want to be the All Star too, they want the recognition, they want to be doing the thing. So that's the first big shift that you got to have. Any questions on that before I go to kind of- Josh: No, no. Super good. Yeah, you're good. Russell: Okay. So the second thing is you have to be good at hiring All Stars. I remember when we first started building ClickFunnels, Todd read an article or something and he was talking about ... in the article was like, there's A players, B players, C player, there's different levels. But what people don't understand, it's not like A players, like 100% and B players like 50%. Like the article said the difference between an A player and a B player is like 2200% difference. So it's like a B player, you can have like one A player going to give you the output of like 50 or 100 or how many B players. And so what most of us try to do, is try to come in and say, "Okay, I don't want to spend as much money getting the right person. So I'm going to find somebody who's cheaper. Maybe they're not going to be an A player, but they'll be a B player, but I can afford them." And that's like this mindset that most people have. I see it all the time, I see it in Facebook groups, in ClickFunnels Facebook group, like, how do I get a cheap funnel builder? Like, that's the problem, you're looking for a B player. Or you find an A player, you get 2200 times better thing. And so it's been interesting because we launched ClickFunnels the first time, like I had a couple A players, which is why it grew. We had a couple All Stars, we had some like Todd Dickerson. You guys know our team, like we had A players who were able to go and intergrow. But then from there, we had to hire whoever we could afford. Right now we're building ClickFunnels 2.0 and we're in a unique spot where it's like, we don't have to just hire who we can afford. Like let's hire the best. And so we're going out there trying to figure out who are the A players in each regard. And it's crazy because I look at the team that's building ClickFunnels 2.0, it's a small team. What they're accomplishing is amazing, but they're all A players. When we started like looking at rolling out Click Funnels 2.0 and our marketing team, we started trying to bring in A players and they're expensive. And so a lot of times the questions like, well, I don't have any money. How do I recruit the A players? Well, I recruited Todd and I was broke. A players aren't necessarily looking for money today. The A players are people who are looking for money in the future. They're the ones who are like, "I want to be part of a team. I want to build something cool, something I believe in. And I want to be able to get paid insane amounts of money over here. And I'm willing to give up that for this over here." The right people will be willing to do that. So as I come back, if I was to like be building my team over from scratch right now. There's number one, again, taking off the All Star, say I'm going to be the coach. And number two is like, if I'm going to be the coach and I'm out there building the team, like I'm going to try to build the dream team. And to do that, I've got to sell them on the vision of why this is cool and like where it's going to go, and what's the opportunity for them. Because just like you're trying to sell your customers on the opportunity of like funnels are the opportunity or whatever. It's like, you're selling your dreams team, like this is the opportunity. Like if you join the team, you're going to get paid nothing right now or very little right now. But this is how we're going to structure things so that it'll be worth it for you over here. And the right people will hear that because that's what they're looking for. Someday when I retire from this whole, whatever I'm doing. If I was ever getting a job again, it's not going to be based on money, I could care less about money. Someone's going to sell me someday on the vision. In fact, I just saw Sean Wayland just hired the dude who started Tapout- Josh: Yeah, I saw that. Russell: And like how powerful is that? The Tapout dude does not need Sean's money. He sold his company for insane amounts of money. But I'm sure Sean's like, "Hey dude, here's the opportunity. You help me do this thing and flip it like, this is what's possible for you." And now he's got literally like there's no better person that Sean could have hired to run that company- Josh: Yeah, I know. Russell: Than this dude. Josh: When I saw that one, I was like, "Oh my Gosh." Russell: It's brilliant. So for all of us, we got to start linking more strategically. Not like, who can I afford for this role? It's like, who is the person that's going to be getting a million bucks a year in five years from now in this role? And how do I sell them on the opportunity? How do I create an opportunity where they can grow and they can monetize? Where they can make this kind of money. And that's how you recruit the right people into your world, who are going to help you to actually have success. And so those are the things ... because you get a good A player, you don't have to be really good at managing, you don't have to be really good at micro- Josh: Yeah. Russell: All those kind things. Like you get the right people in place, they're going to do the things and it makes you look like the All Star, the coach of the year that you are. Because you built the right team. Building the team- Josh: Yeah. Russell: Is more valuable than all the other pieces, I believe. Josh: Yeah. Like getting the right people is more important. The systems, the process, like those are all important. But like if you have B players on the team, it's like you're going to get a mediocre result. Russell: Yeah. And then- Josh: Yeah. Russell: And B player, you're going to be one in charge if you know the process. We brought Todd and I didn't have to like sit down with Todd and like, "Okay, how are we going to manage the projects? How are we going to do this?" Like Todd came in, he's like, "All right, I got it." And he just ran and he was able to run and like, all right, he's done. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Like we just brought in this guy named Kevin Richards, who we brought him in into like be the CMO of ClickFunnels. And Kevin had worked for a whole bunch of really big companies doing this. And it's crazy because like he came in and we gave him the reins, he started running. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is way better than I was running." Like there's structures, organization. Because he's done it before, over and over and over again. He's going to come in and plug in and just do it. And I'm watching it right now, I'm like- Josh: Yeah. Russell: "Man, like he's an A player who I could hire." In fact, I have over the last decade, a whole bunch of B players to do this role and no one's been able to hit it. And it's been me being involved so much. Where now it's like literally the first two weeks I was like all nervous because I want to make sure that everything's perfect. And finally like gave him the reins and I stepped back and it's like, "Whoa, this is so much better than when I was running it." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And it's easier and less stressed on me and he's loving it and it's just powerful. So those are the key. Josh: Okay. Couple rapid fire questions here, so that we make time. Number one, have you ever run into challenges or how have you dealt with communication differences inside of a team? Because one of the things that I've noticed is like, I just thought everybody would communicate like I was if we're all part of a team. I'm like the most expressive person, like when I talk. Like I use emojis and exclamation points and like if I'm texting, if I'm going like my voice or whatever. And like someone on my team is like, "Okay." I'm like, "Ah, are you mad? Do you understand? Like what do you mean, okay?" Do you have systems in place? Or do you typically go and just try to like find people to do that? Or is that something you just learn? Because I'm sure like, Melanie, I mean she was with you for how long? Right before Shelia, I'm sure she had a very unique communication style and I'm sure your next assistant is probably not the same as her. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right. So like how have you learned like how to deal with that? Russell: Yeah. A couple things. One is like personality profiling is huge. In fact, we're working on a whole project right now and that'll probably be a book and a membership side, bunch of stuff, all based on personality profiling. Because that's how you understand like what motivates people? How do they speak? How do they not speak? How do they understand? Because again, Melanie and Jenny are very different people. But I'm able to work with both of them because I understood their personality types, I understood like, what are the things that would light Melanie up? What are the things that'd get Jenny excited to work? And vice versa. Like, if you look at Melanie was a very high S, so very faithful. And so like she would like die for you to be able to get something done. Jenny on their hand has very low S, almost no S. And so for her, it's like, man, if she gets bored, she's gone. So I got to make sure that she's got 8,000 projects and she's juggling them all. The more things she's having, the more successful she's going to be. Similar to me. And so I give her tons of projects and she thrives that she's able to juggle all these things. Whereas if I treat her like I taught Melanie, she would've been here for a week and a half, like, I'm out, like this is horrible. So understanding those kind of things. Like DISC profile's big, Meyers Briggs is big. Those are my two favorites. I'm trying to learn to master all the other ones, but those ones help a ton when you're hiring and all also when you're managing people. Josh: Yeah. Russell: The other thing is, this is one that helped me. Actually, Julie Story actually was one that taught it to me initially. And I don't remember all the things, but there's these different hats. There's like a black hat and a green hat and a red hat and yellow hat and all these things like that. So I'm a very green hat person, so are you. Put on the green hat and it's like creative ideas and we're flowing. I'm like, we get so excited about sharing stuff. And there's people who have like a black hats, they're the ones who always like ... they look at what could go wrong. What about this? And what about this? Josh: They take away all the fun. Oh my God. Russell: Yeah. Josh: They ruin it. Russell: And then like the white hats. So there's all these different hats. The ones I really remember is like green and black because I'm green hat. And like, Jamie Smith's a good example of a black hat. I love Jamie, one of my favorite humans in the world. But when we would do meetings together, I literally wanted jump over the table and strangle him. Because I'm like, "I did, I did, I did." And he's like, "Well, you think about this? You think about this? Think about this?" And like you're sucking the life out of me. Josh: Yeah. Russell: My wife's a very black hat person, as well. I'm like, "We should take the kids and like fly around the world and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Like just brainstorming things that are probably never going to happen. She's like, "What about this, this, this?" And so we started learning like based on this ... this is something that Julie brought that was really powerful. It was like, "Hey, we're in now in a green hat phase. Well, Russell's going to green hat, we're talking about ideas. No one's allowed to black hat this at all. Let's just share ideas." So then everyone's just sharing ideas and like, we have a chance to be excited and creative and get these things out there. And after it's like all the creative steps out, it's like, "Okay, now let's put a black hat on, now it's black hat this." And now we can all look at it objectively you're like, "Okay, we're going to black hat this and go through the black hat things." And then we put on a different colored hat and go through those things. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: And we go through different hats, but they're separately, they're not all happening at the same time. Because if it happens at the same time, it destroys my creativity and excitement and energy. I want to like strangle the person. But like, man, I need those people. I need Jamie to look at this and be like, "Here's 40 ways why this isn't going to work." Like, oh crap, I didn't think about that, that or that. We stack the different hats as opposed to doing them all at the same time and making us all want to kill each other. And that has been- Josh: That's so helpful. Russell: Huge for us. Like for me, it's huge. I always tell people like when I start brainstorming, like, "Okay, green hat time, no negative, no what ifs. Let's go." And then we just do that. And you see like the black hat people are like twitching and they're like, don't worry, you're going to get your shot, but not yet. Until everything's out and it's like, "Okay, black hat's on. What do you guys got?" And then they can go do their thing. Josh: You need some anxiety medication over there. Russell: Yeah. We can do a whole, like two day training on that, too. Because it's such a powerful thing. But conceptually, it's breaking those things in that way. Josh: All right, Russell. Well, in your other life, we'll just have an entire podcast where all we do is just do deep dives all day long. But in this life, we have to stick with constraints of where we're at. So anyway, thank you for sharing that. Super, super helpful. I appreciate it. Russell: No worries. Thank you, Josh. Appreciate you guys. Hopefully you enjoyed this episode. As you guys are building your teams, remember the principles we talked about. You've got to become the coach, you've got to attract A players, you got to put them in the right spots, figure out ways to make it profitable for them in the long term, figure out personality types, you can serve them the right way. Black hat, green hat, red hats. We should do an episode on just on all hat ... I have to go back to remember all the other colored hats. But anyway- Josh: All right, our next- Russell: There you go. Josh: Go around, I'll be like you have homework for this. Russell: Russell, prepare for this and we'll go. Josh: Prepare for this one. That'd be awesome. Russell: That'd be awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. Thank you, Josh. And we'll see you guys on the next episode.

Did you know this may be holding you back from success in your business? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. One of the questions I get asked a lot about, and I don't spend a lot of time talking about it, is actually money and mindset around money, and how that works, and things that can help you to make more money, things that hold you back from making money. They have nothing to do with your skill set, it just has everything to do with the conversations, the beliefs, the things inside of your mind. This interview with Josh Forti, it was really fun and hopefully you enjoy it. Hopefully it'll help you if you do have money blocks, to help you get unstuck. If you don't think you have money blocks, you probably do. And this hopefully, interview, will make you very aware of those things, and help you to find those things and knock them out in your life. That said, we'll keep the theme song, and when we come back, listen in on this interview with me and Josh Forti. What's up everybody? Welcome back The Marketing Secrets podcast. I'm here today again with Josh Forti, and we're having so much fun today. We just recorded one episode and now we're going deep into episode number two, which we're going to be talking about mindset as it relates to things that are very specific to you guys as entrepreneurs. I'll Josh talk more about this as he's going to be queuing up the question, but hope you guys enjoy this episode as well. Josh Forti: All right, man. First off, we got to talk about your shirt. I feel like there's got to be a story behind this. Guys, for those of you that are listening on audio, let me just explain real quick. It is a skull and crossbones, but it's not just a skull and crossbones. It's got bunny ears on the skull. It's got little waves off to the side. What does it say on the sleeve? Russell: It says, "Psycho bunny." Josh: Psycho bunny. Russell: This is actually a really cool brand called Psycho Bunny, and I bought a couple of their things. I'm like, "This is a cool brand." And then I was shopping with Bart Miller in Vegas, and they have a Psycho Bunny shop. I went in there- Josh: Oh dang! Russell: And they had shirts and jackets and suit jackets that have the Psycho Bunny inside. It's just a fun, cool brand, and I really like it. Psycho Bunny. Josh: Okay. There's no grand, huge story behind how you got it. You just liked it. Russell: I should buy the company because it'd be really cool. Anyway, nope. Nothing. Josh: Guys, when you're a funnel hacker and when you decide to take over the world and create empires, you can randomly decide on a podcast that you're just going to ... "I should buy the company." That's not a normal thing that most people get to say, but it's super dope. Russell: This could be a fun episode in the future because as we acquired two big companies last year and I'm learning about this and having more fun with it, there are some cool ... For most of us, we look at a company, like, "There's no way I could buy that company," but then like Tai Lopez who just bought RadioShack and he bought Pier 1 Imports and all these companies… Josh: Dress Barn. Yeah. Russell: Now, I bought a couple companies and I'm like, oh, my gosh, there's actually a really cool strategy where it doesn't technically cost you any money if you do it correctly. We bought Dan Kennedy's company for a steal. We've launched the first thing. Now we made our money back. And now moving forward, everything I do with Dan Kennedy's company is pure, unadulterated profit to the bottom line. And that's exciting because ... All of a sudden it's like, you can actually buy companies when you understand the core principles of what we do. Anyway, that's a topic for another day, but it's kind of a fun one. Josh: So much fun stuff. Topic for another day. We'll do many episodes. Now is not the time. We're going to dive into what I think goes really well with our last episode. Last episode we talked about goal setting and setting things up, and that last bit of it was around identity and beliefs and values and rules and things like that. I want to talk about mindset here, and specifically the mindset ... There's a couple core key areas, because what's interesting is a lot of times we think mindset is we have to train our minds to think a certain way, or we have to overcome false beliefs about bad things. Like, "I'll never be successful" or "I'll never be this." But it goes both ways, because often times we can have fear of success. We can have fear that, oh, my gosh, what happens if I actually achieve that goal? There's so many different things around that, that we could dive into, but I want to kick off with this one specifically around mindset around money. I do want to talk about not just money, failure, doing the impossible, things like that, but I want to start with money because I feel like money is one of these things that we all have some form of weird relationship with it. Very few people grew up in a home where their parents and everybody around them had a healthy relationship with money, because most people ... I would say 90 plus percent of the people that I've met do not have a healthy relationship with money. They don't understand it. They don't understand what it represents, how it works, any of the things with it. For you, I want you to take us back because one of things, and I've kind of told you this at the beginning, a lot of people in the ClickFunnels world, like Russell. I was talking to Brad Gibb the other day. Shout out to Brad. He's awesome. He's like, "Russell has come and he's taken these handcuffs off of us, to where now we just can print money." It's ridiculous. It's kind of a cheat code. When we talk about it to all of our friends, we go around and we're like, "Yeah, we just kind of make money on the Internet." They're like, "How do you do that?" We're like, "We don't know. We just do what Russell says and it just works." Russell: It's a magic trick! Josh: It just shows up. It's amazing. We've kind of unshackled the making of money, if we follow what it is, but keeping money. But our thoughts around money, our beliefs around money, how we perceive and value money, how we think money is going to change us. All of these different other things around money, those things are now new problems that a lot of us are running into, or have not yet applied the things that you've told us to do because of those beliefs. I think both of those are true. I've seen so many people ... I made not a ton, ton of money, but certainly 10 times more money than I'd ever made in my life when I first got started, and blew it all because of my poor, very unhealthy, almost toxic relationship with money. Take us back, what are the money shifts or the beliefs around money, specifically in mindset, that you had to go through. I'm just going to kind of leave that open ended and see where you take it. Russell: The first thing I think that would be useful for everyone is for everyone to actually, honestly sit down and look at their relationship with money and understand it ... It's funny because if you would ask Russell 15 years ago Russell if this was actually a real thing, I'd be like, "No, this is stupid. Just make money. It's easy." But I had a friend who I worked with, man, probably 12, 13 years ago on a project and he was someone who is super charismatic, super dynamic, super talented person. When he was younger, he used his talents and his gifts and he made a whole bunch of money really, really fast. Crazy, crazy money. Money that doesn't make any sense. When he got that money, he started doing stupid things with it. He got into drugs and alcohol and all the problems that are associated with when you make too much money too fast as a kid, and almost destroyed his life. He almost died. He almost lost his family and his marriage. All these things happened. He lost all the money, which was probably a blessing. And then he refixed his life. And then he got back to the spot where he's like, "I want to make money again." I watched him for probably 10 years of his life, where he would do all the right things, he would get close to making a bunch of money and then he would literally subconsciously destroy everything he had built, and it kept happening. At first I was so confused by it. I'm like, "You were so close. How do you keep messing this up? I don't understand it." Then he told me a story. He didn't know this subconsciously but we had a conversation one night where he told me a story. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. Subconsciously, you are linking the destruction of your family, your health and all these things to making money, because that's what happened the very first time. Now every time you get close to it, your whole subconscious mind is like, no, and starts making you do stupid things to destroy yourself from actually having success." I've seen ... Now, it's been a decade of me watching this. And as much as I love this person, I keep seeing him. He's so talented, so many gifts, and keeps not having any success because of this thing that happened in his youth. His is an extreme example, but this is happening to all of us. You think about when you were growing up, what are the things that your parents said about money? What are the things that you heard at church about money? What are the things you heard in different spots? There are so many things that have been ingrained in our head that we don't even know consciously. And also, we start having success in whatever. We start making money or we start getting close to making money, and all these warning signals are popping off in your head, like, don't get money because of this because you'll become a bad person and you're going to fall away from God. You're going to be doing this. You're going to be the bad person. You look at TV. Myron Golden is the first one that ever pointed this out to me. You look at every movie, every superhero movie, for the most part, the bad guy is the rich billionaire who is this horrible person. This is ingrained in our heads that money is going to make us evil. Those things are real, and even if you don't think that they're affecting you, they probably are. Josh: And then you don't consciously believe it. Subconsciously they control you. Russell: Yeah, it's affecting you. I've seen this in my own journey. When I first started making money, I thought everyone was going to be excited. I was like, "This is so cool." I was so excited to teach everybody else. I started making money. I start teaching people and try to show my friends and my family and what happened. The response I got was not what I thought it was going to be. It was not like, "This is amazing-" Josh: At all. Russell: "Let's try it." Instead it was weird, especially for my wife. My wife struggled with it even more so than me because I've had success in parts of my life in the past where ... In wrestling, I was a state champ, I was an all-American. I hit these different things, but there was this weird side of success you aren't expecting where the people around you who you think are going to be celebrating with you, they don't. In fact, I remember my mom when I bought my dream house ... My house is ... You've been to my house. Josh: Your house is insane. It's so awesome. Russell: It's like the coolest thing in the world. When I was growing up, I wanted an insane house. I remember I was finally at a spot where I could buy this house. In the reality, I didn't pay it off immediately. I could've just paid cash for it. I didn't. But within two years I think I paid it off, which was a big deal for me. But I remember when I was buying my house, I remember a comment my mom said. She was like, "You don't want to buy a house like this because then you're going to be one of those rich people up on the hill." I was like, "What does that mean, mom?" She was like, "They're the ones that are always looking down at everybody else." I'm like, "What?" All of a sudden I was scared to tell my mom about my success because my mom viewed the rich people as this thing over here. And then other people. It was this weird thing where all of a sudden it makes you want to shrink down, it makes you want to hide because you're like, "I don't want people judging me because of this thing." For all of you guys, for all of us, there's these things that may happen, where comments are made, when people we love and respect were to all of a sudden to ... The side of success that you think is going to happen doesn't. Especially in money. I think money is a big one because it's such a thing. Josh: Yeah. I also think that because of the stories that we're told by everybody else, like you're saying, subconsciously it's ingrained in our society, what money is and how it works, nobody understands it. Taylor Welch ... You know Taylor, right? Taylor Welch? Russell: Yep. Josh: He's the one ... He and I have become ... I don't want to say good friends, but certainly friends over the past little bit. He was actually the very first person I ever interviewed on my podcast. Russell: Very cool. Josh: He got me into money. He was like, "Study money. Because once you understand how it works, it'll completely change your perspective of it." I always joke around with my mom. I'm like, "Money's not real. It's all fake." In America specifically, the U.S. dollar is not real. It's all fake and it's all made up. She always pushes back. She's like, "It's not fake because I can guy groceries with it." I'm like, "That right there, that shows that I have a different relationship ..." And side note, I freaking love my mom. My mom and I have an amazing relationship. But my mom and I have a completely different fundamental relationship with money. That was a very interesting learning lesson for me. When you change your relationship with money, when you change how it works, when you understand it differently and when you change your relationship with it, it also becomes not hard to get or keep, because now you're not needy of it. Your relationship changes with it. I always think about ... Take it back to dating. I'm not even going to say the book because I don't want people to go ... It's not a great book, but I was reading a clip out of this book one time and the guy in it goes, "Money and ..." Let's say, relationship. Money and girls are kind of the same thing. Those are not the words he used, but money and girls are the same way. If you're desperate and needy of it, you'll never have it. But if you don't care, it'll come abundantly. That was a very interesting shift for me as well. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you but that was very interesting. Russell: It's key. As I studied Tony Robbins, the biggest thing I learned ... One of the biggest things. I shouldn't say the biggest, but is just becoming aware of things. I think the first step for of any us is being aware of how this is actually affecting you. For a lot of us, at whatever level you're at, the reason you're not at the next level is because there's some belief around it that's keeping you from there. It's interesting, I remember when I had the goal, when I hit a million dollars in a year, I didn't hit it three years in a row. Every year I was within $50,000. Like, $75,000. How am I not hitting this? It was like, I had these weird beliefs around that thing. As soon as I broke it, I was like, this is easy. Going from million to 10 million was next. Getting to two, three, five, eight million was easy, but then 10 million was this gap where I was stuck. It's beliefs. What's easy? What's hard? A couple things ... Again, this is one of those topics. I've never taught this before so I don't have the, here's the Russell three step framework. Things have happened in my life that I became aware of this for myself. One of them was, I had a coach ... I've had her a couple times throughout my life. She's awesome. One of my favorite coaches of all time. Her name is Tara Williams. Tara ... It was interesting because I always thought ... Again, especially people who are religious, there's always this belief of is money going to make me evil? You hear these things on the side. I definitely had this subconscious fear around that. If I get too much money, I'm going to forget God. I'm going to forget my family. All these things couple happen. Because they do. They happen to so many people. We see it. I had that fear behind it. I remember, especially when I bought my house, I was like, I bought this house and it's crazy. Anyway, Tara was at our house, actually, doing a coaching session with my wife and I. It was an interesting thing. But she said a couple things in that meeting that had a big impact on me. One of the things was ... She asked my wife this specifically. "Do you think this is bad that he bought this house?" My wife is like, "Yeah." She has so much guilt associated with it, because she's like ... It was interesting because Tara brought back, "Because you guys have money, talk about things you've done. Last year you gave a million dollars to OUR. Last year you did this. Last year you did this. How many people have you helped? How many entrepreneurs have you empowered? How many jobs have you created?" We started going through this whole thing, and it was like, all these things you're doing has been creating wealth for you. You have this wealth. You can just give it away and you guys do give a lot away, but is it bad for you now to enjoy some of it, to buy a house? Still she was like, "I don't know. Is it bad or not?" She's like, "Now you have this house, what have you guys done with this house?" I was like, "We have our kids here and we have our family here. We bring people here. We're able to serve people at a different level because we have these things." All of a sudden it was like, oh, my gosh, this isn't a bad thing. I remember hearing Richard Branson, somebody asked him ... Who was it? It was another one of those moments for me that opened my mind. But someone asked Branson, "Do you feel guilty that you're not down at the soup kitchen helping feed these people?" Branson's response was so powerful. He said, "The people of the soup kitchen who are feeding people, that's amazing. We're so grateful for them. They're giving their time and their effort. It's powerful. I'm not going to go to the soup kitchen and feed people soup, but I can give the soup kitchen $50,000, and that's going to feed 10,000 people. It's different service but it's still service, and this is able to help even more people." I started thinking about that. Man, these tools that we create, like wealth and the things that we have can be so much more impactful if we use it correctly. It's not a bad thing. It's just understanding these are tools that we have. Anyway ... Josh: It's interesting you say that and phrase it that way because that was one of the things, actually, Brad Gibb, he's a very good friend of mine as well, and we talk a lot. And he's taught me probably more about money as far as investing how it works and how to use it and things like that, probably more than anybody else. Very, very smart. One of the things that he said is money is not all the same. He's like, "You can have a million dollars over here and a million dollars over here and one of them be used for good and to multiply and to be productive, and one of them be used just to indulge and be gluttonous and to be greedy. Is money good or bad? It's not good, it's not bad. It is. It is a tool for exchange. How you go and use it will determine whether or not it's good or bad for you in your own life." When he put it that way, I was like, if I have my money and I'm investing and I'm multiplying it and it's creating freedom and then I'm using that to be able to go out and give back, all of a sudden money is now good. It makes me be able to do my job better. But if I'm just going and I make a million dollars and I go to Vegas and I put 100 grand on black, cool. Maybe once in your lifetime. But that is not a good thing anymore. Now it's taking away from your gift. It can either be an amplifier or it can be something that takes away. That was a really, really big shift for me. It was like, how am I using it? Russell: It's powerful. Again, it just comes down to there's so many subconscious things that are weird about it. Next thing I want to talk about for entrepreneurs too ... And this is a trap with money that I got caught into for almost 15 years. When I stared my business, I remember I started making some money. I figured out what my wife and I needed to live. I think at the time it was $8,000 a month that was giving us the most amazing lifestyle ever. We set it up where our paycheck was eight grand a month and that's what was coming from the company. And everything else in the company I kept reinvesting back into the company. For a while that's important. That's where we're going to grow, where we're going to expand it. I look at my business for the next decade at least, maybe longer, I never pulled anything else out. It only kept getting reinvested, reinvested. And eventually ... Some of you guys heard my story. 10, 12 years ago we had this big crash where everything got shut down and we lost everything. And the thing that sucked is when it all was said and done, I had nothing. We never pulled money out. We never invested. We never did anything. It was all being reinvested back into the business. I got my guarantee, we had our certainty, eight grand a month coming in consistently every single time, but then nothing happened. I remember when we launched after that happened and everything crashed and we were rebuilding back up, during that time we had no money so everything is being reinvested back into the business because we had no business at that point. We started figuring this out. That's where I met Todd. We launched Click Funnels. When we launched Click Funnels, I instantly went back to my same pattern. Like, cool, all the money goes back into Click Funnels. That's how we're going to do this thing. Todd was like, "Dude, just so you understand, I did not build this thing to just have a good paycheck and let this thing keep growing. This is not worth it for me unless we pull money out." I remember I was like ... I had so much fear and I was like, "No. We can't do this." This is one of Todd and I's first and probably only real things where he was just like, "It's not worth it to me unless this is producing money that's being put over here for my family, for my church, for my faith, all the things I want to be doing." Again, we fought back and forth for a couple of months. The very first time we had some profit. I was like, "What do I do with this profit? Put it back in the business." Todd was like, "No, we need to pull it out of the business," and we fought back and forth. Finally, we figured out a way to make us both happy where we figured ... At the time, we need three months of money in reserve. Worst case scenario, that's there. But then after that's over, all of the money, 100% of the money needs to be pulled out and given to the owners. Otherwise we're going to be like you were, Russell, 15 years in and you've got nothing to show for it. All the stress, all the effort, all the energy, and nothing to show for it. That's how we set things up. I remember it was so scary for me. In fact, when we started pulling out and distributing out the profits every single month, I kept mine in there for two years. I didn't touch a penny of it because I'm like ... It's in my separate account. It's over there. What was crazy, though, is that all of a sudden this thing that I was doing started actually producing wealth for me, which took the stress down. I started seeing this thing happening, and all of a sudden it started giving me options where I had no options ahead of time. I think for a lot of entrepreneurs it's like, we have this thing ... It's funny because I see even big people like Gary Vee talk about this, like, "I don't care about money. I dump all my money back in. I'm just building this brand." I'm like, I thought that was the thing for a while too, but it's not. If the business is not producing wealth for the owners, what's the point of it? Eventually you got a job and that's it. It needs to be doing something or else it's not serving you, and therefore, it's not a gift. Josh: Was that the thing, though, helping you overcome that? Was it just doing it? Is that what helped you overcome it? Russell: Yeah, Todd forced me. If it wasn't for Todd, I would still be pulling out eight grand a month and that would be where I would be living. 100%. Todd forced me to do it and it stressed me out. I was so scared. For two years I didn't touch the money and all of a sudden it was like, oh, my gosh, there's this money here. Now I have the ability to ... This thing I had created, this value I was trying to put into the world was paying us back, and now we could ... Now we had all sorts of options. Especially when you're really pushing and you're working hard and you're grinding on something, if aren't seeing some tangible value back from it, it's not serving you. It's just taking from you. Again, this was my personal money, one of my personal issues I struggled with. This may or may not be that, but I would say for all of you guys, looking at this as you are creating a business and creating wealth, you need to be pulling things out. What you do with it is up to you. Like you talked about, use it for good, evil. You can give it to charity. You can do whatever. But if the business is just paying for itself, the business will continue to eat up all your money. It will. You leave money it, it's going to continue to eat it up and it'll disappear as fast as it can possibly happen. But if you start pulling it out and it's over here and it's different, man, it becomes more efficient. It becomes more effective. Everything becomes better because of that. Josh: It's funny, because my thing ... I had that same struggle except I wasn't even paying myself. I was literally just, what are my bills for the month, the bare minimum, and then that was it. And then I met my now wife and I started thinking about finances and she wanted stuff. I was like, but also the business. It was kind of like this thing. Katie came along and was like, "Josh ..." The very first ... She didn't give me a lot of tactical things. It was very mindset-focused. I remember one of the biggest tactical things that she gave me out of the very few that she did, she was like, "You need to pay yourself a paycheck, and that paycheck needs to not only be enough to cover all of your expenses, but it needs to in excess." When I started to put away multiple thousand dollars a month into savings or into being able to invest outside of the company, it changed my whole entire perspective. Weirdly enough, magically, the business made more money. It was like, made it every month. It was like, we're entrepreneurs. We figure out problems. Our brain programs for it. And then I started looking at it as myself as an expense. I was like, I'm a line item on the books. Just like I pay a contractor, that's me. All of a sudden, the business made enough money to cover that. But before that, it didn't. It was crazy. Russell: It's interesting because when you start seeing the results ... I've talked about this before. If you look at my Disc profile, there's the D-I-S-C, and then there's your values. My number one value is ROI. If I can't see the ROI of a situation, it makes it harder for me to do it. I was in business for a decade and a half and the ROI I was getting was good. I was like, "I'm helping people and having success, and it's fun to see the success stories." That was the ROI I was getting, and it was good. It kept me going. But man, I look at the last seven years of Click Funnel, it was like the pressure and the stress and all of the type of things. If it wasn't for the ROI, it took this pressure, but here's the ROI of it, I wouldn't have been able to do it. As soon as I started seeing the ROI and the ROI gets bigger and bigger and bigger, all of a sudden it's like, this becomes fun again and you get excited. How do I make the ROI ... For me, it's all about the ROI, the return on investment, any situation is the key. If you don't have the ROI, it gets hard. It's hard to be creative. It's hard to come up with the next idea, the next thing, and the stress and the pressure that comes. What's the return on investment for the effort you're putting into it? But if you see the ROI and you start amplifying it, then it becomes a more fun game. That's where you start growing from a million to a 10 to 100 and beyond because it's like, I see this game. I'm playing it. I'm getting the return on investment. But I never saw that before because the only return on investment I was getting was this one thing, and those things they feel good, but it's hard to keep score with the feel goods. You got to have a scoreboard to see, like, oh, my gosh, I'm winning. Can I win even more? What's it going to look like? And now it gives you options and opportunities… Josh: You mean you're telling me that all the stress and pressure isn't worth $8,000 a month? Russell: You know, I could get ... I was like ... Nowadays with all of the inflation, I can work at McDonald's for eight grand a month, I think. It's crazy. Josh: Man. Russell: But back then- Josh: That's crazy. Russell: That was the ... Anyway, it's crazy. Josh: You can buy Bitcoin and keep up with inflation. Bitcoin, the savior of money. One more. I kind of want to dive ... I wasn't going to make this a money episode, because that's kind of where it's been. When did you make the shift ... One of the big problems with entrepreneurs, talking maybe a little bit more established entrepreneur, is once they're making money ... I was talking with Brad about this and he was talking about in the inner circle. He was in there ... Or in Category Kings, right? The guy's like, "What's the main problem that you solve?" Brad was like, "So interesting. We thought we could answer that question." Then he asked us it and we try to do it, and it was like, dang, what is the main problem that we solve? What he said is one of the things that they came down to was entrepreneurs know that if they have money, it should be doing more. But they don't know what to do with it. This is something that you probably are an amplified example of this, because you're really, really good at making money. You don't even need to think about what your money should be doing because you can just go make more of it. Once again, that because you've unshackled us. It's like, "All right, want a new car? Go build a funnel. You want a palace? Go build a funnel. Want to take a vacation? Launch a funnel. Just do a funnel and you print money." For you, when did that shift happen for you when you actually started paying attention to, I can't just leave my money in an account right now? I can't just buy cars and houses because those don't make me ... You have houses, you've got the cars, you've got everything you've ever wanted and you still have money left over, so when did you make that shift of, my money needs to be doing more, and how did you solve that problem? Russell: Interesting. This is one that's been more recently solved for me, actually, which is fascinating. For a long I was just hoarding it. Just hoarding it, keeping it here. Then Brad and Ryan ... You have to invest it. I'm like, "I don't want to do that." They forced me to do ... I give them a bunch of money every year and they do whatever they do with it, and that's awesome. I'm like, "Okay, cool. Something is happening." But then the money kept adding up. I remember one day I was like, "I'm in a weird spot where I could buy almost anything I want. What do I want? I'm going to go and spend some money." I remember going to eBay and I was like, "I'm going to buy anything I want." I was searching for stuff, and I spent four hours on eBay when all of a sudden I spent three grand. I was like, "That's it. I got everything I wanted." I was like, "Oh, crap, now what do I do with it?" It was interesting, because for me, it was like ... Again, this is something ... It's been a recent development. I can't remember if it was this podcast or the one I talked about it, I was like, I didn't know what to do with this. Yeah, I could invest in real estate, but that wasn't inspiring to me. I have money in crypto, but that's not inspiring. What's the things that's going to inspire me to want to do more? Again, it's ROI for me. What's going to give me the ROI of now I got to create more money so I can do this thing? So I have a lot of things. Again, we give money to charity. All those things are good and they get me excited. But I was like, what would be the thing that, for me, would amplify? When we bought Dan Kennedy's company, it was the first time I felt it. I bought his thing. We reorganized it, cleaned it up, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm able to take these things that were so precious to me and I can bring them back to the world, and I can monetize them. I can actually make money off of this thing." I got really excited. I told you I started buying old books. I started investing in Napoleon Hill books and Charles Haanel and Orison Swett Marden and Samuel Smiles and all these people, the founding fathers of personal development and business and all these kinds of things. I've literally spent a small fortune ... I've spent a lot of money in the last couple months on these old, old books, because now it's like, I'm not investing in real estate that's over here. I'm investing in these things I don't care about. Now it's like I'm investing in something that I can take and that I can turn this into more money, and I can turn it into help. I can serve my entrepreneurs. I can do more things with it. For me, that's what's been stimulating for me. That was the investment of ... It was like, I can dump it back into things, but it was like something that's meaningful to me. For some people, crypto is meaningful. For some people it's NFT. Finding the thing that's not just like, I'm investing to invest, but what's the thing that you're passionate about it where it becomes more than just ... For me, that's what I'm geeking out on. You know this, next door I'm building a 20,000 square foot library to house all these books, to build an event center, to build all these kind of things because this is what I feel like my life's mission is. I'm curating all these ideas and I'm bringing them back to people in the simple new form to help these ideas and these concepts live on. For me, that's double fulfilling because it'll make me money, but it's also something that can serve the people I've been called to serve as well. Again, buying Kennedy's company, I'm serving these people, but I'm also making money, which gives me the ability to serve more people. It's kind of fun. Josh: What was the shift, though? For a while you didn't do that, right? Russell: For a while I just sat there. I didn't know what it was. Josh: Who or what got you to the point where you're like, "Okay, I've got to go figure this out"? Yes, this is what you ended up doing with it, but I think a lot of people, there's got to be that thing that's like, "This is when I realized I got to figure out ..." Or some people just let it sit their whole life, I guess. You know what I'm saying? Russell: I heard stories about ... I don't know how true ... But like Scottie Pippen or Mike Tyson, he made half a billion dollars and he's broke. I was like, I don't want to be that dude who made a half a billion dollars and is broke right now. I need to figure out ... I always joke with Brad and Ryan when we were writing their webinar page initially, I was like ... On 30 Rock, there's that scene where Liz Lemon is talking to Alec Baldwin and he's like, "I need that thing that rich people do where they turn money into more money." He's like, "Investing?" He's like, "Yeah. I want to do that." For me, it was like, I've got money here. I need to figure out how to turn money into more money, that's not just me doing the whole thing. How do we amplify what we're doing? How do we have that exponential growth? That was kind of the thing that got me into it. Again, initially it was doing the things that weren't exciting. I'd invested money in real estate and I hated that, so I had Brad and Ryan, I invested money with them. That was cool. It was passive. It wasn't passionate. I was trying to figure out what's the thing that I'm going to be passionate about, where now it becomes part of a game. Now I can see the ROI on this thing. I invested $40,000 this weekend on old books, how do I turn that into $400,000 or four million or 40 million? Can I do that? Now begins ... Now it's fun. Some people, real estate is that game. I got friends who own 100 houses, or 200 houses, and that's the game that they love. I look at Tai Lopez and he's buying these businesses. That's the game that he loves. What's the game you're going to love, the investing game you're going to love? There's a million ways to invest, but when you find one that you love, then it becomes ... Now it becomes a fun part of the game. I think it's understanding first off you need to do it, otherwise you're going to ... You mentioned this ... I can't remember if it was before we started recording, but people who have won Two Comma Club and they got nothing, or Two Comma Club X and they're broke. Entrepreneurs are good at generating money, but there's this other part that you got to learn how to invest it correctly. Otherwise, you're going to pull a Tyson or a Pippen and be broke in a couple of years from now. Yeah, I got 3 Two Comma Club awards on the wall, but I'm trying to figure out how to feed my family this weekend, and that's now where you want to be… Josh: That's so crazy that's a reality for people. It really, really is. I think that's one of the things that I am very, very thankful to have learned relatively early on, is ... Russell: They're two different skill sets. Making money- Josh: They are. Russell: And keeping money are not the same thing. Josh: Yeah. Russell: They are completely different skill sets. In fact, typically, the people who are good at making money are the worst at managing it. Josh: Keeping it. Russell: It's like yin and yang. Understanding that if you're good at making it, you find people around you, like Brad and Ryan, I was like, "Here's money. Do that thing you do because I don't want to mess it up." Josh: Yeah. Russell: In fact, it's funny, before I invested money with Brad and Ryan, I invested it in two different deals. I was like, "This is the greatest thing in the world." Both of them, literally both of them turned out to Ponzi schemes. I got to write off multiple of millions of dollars last year because I gave money to ideas that were so good that me as the entrepreneur was like, "This is genius. This is the greatest thing in the world." Ponzi scheme. I got sold on the thing. It's funny, one of my friends just sold his business for eight figures and he messages me. He was like, "All right. I want to ask your opinion. Where should I put this money?" I was like, "Dude, do not ask me. If I think it's a good idea, it's going to be a Ponzi scheme. Find someone who, that's their life, is that, like Brad and Ryan. Go give your money to them," or find something like I'm doing now with the books and stuff, where it's like now. This is something that fits into my skill set. I think it was ... What's the old dude who invests all the money? Warren Buffett, that said only invest in things you understand. It's like, I understand how to turn old information into money. I'm investing in information and intellectual property because I can turn that into more money, and so that becomes something I can invest in, because I understand the game. I don't understand- Josh: So interesting. Russell: This, but I do understand this, therefore, I will invest in the thing I understand because I can turn this into more money. Josh: That makes sense. Side note on Warren Buffett, you know 80% of his wealth or something like that came off of nine trades? Russell: Really? Josh: Nine investments that he made, it produced 80% of his wealth or something like that. Isn't that insane? Russell: That is fascinating. Josh: That's why when ... I read the quote from him, it was in the context of this quote. It was like, Warren Buffett is like, everyone thinks they have to make a bunch of good decisions. He was like, "I try to make three good decisions a year." I was like, "Oh, my gosh. What the heck?" And then I found out that 80% of his wealth came from ... It was eight or nine trades or something, or investments, and I was like, "All right. I guess that makes sense, then, if you only need to make ..." Anyway, last question, rapid fire question on money. Is there anything that you could do, if you could go back and change something about what you've done or your handling with money, is there anything that you would change, and if so, what's the biggest thing that would be? Russell: Good question. I think I would've started ... Number one, I would've started pulling money out of my business faster. Number two, I would've had a plan for what I would do with that money. I wish I would've said, "I'm going to pull out ... After three months of thing, pull out all the profit, I'm going to put 25% in real estate, 25% in crypto, 25% in something else, and just have that happening in the background, I'd be a much wealthier man today." It took me a long, long time before I did that. Todd forced me to start putting money into crypto, which was one of the greatest gifts ever for me. Brad and Ryan are now forcing me to put money over here. It's like taking that and putting it in spots where again, it's not going to be 100%. I'm going to fall for two Ponzi schemes a year probably, but if I can get one of them to win and three of them to fail, or whatever that is, that's the big thing. I always thought that I will start pulling money out when blah. When I hit Two Comma Club, when I hit a million. The problem is that win never comes. You got to structure from day number one. When money comes in, boom. Profits come out. This happens here. I pay myself first. From the money I pay myself, 10% is going to go for me to go do stupid things, 25% is going to go into real estate or Bitcoin or stocks or whatever. And dividing that stuff up so it's happening at a small level, because when that happens, I wasted a decade and a half before any kind of investments happening. Can you imagine if I had 15 years of the stuff I was doing, turning into something? I missed out on so much of that, that I wish I would've done. Josh: You just got to make sure that you have a small percentage there, which is dedicated to losing bets and Bitcoin to Josh. If you have that, then we're good. For the rest of your life, you're going to be losing bets, so that's how that's going to work. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode with money. I'll let you sign it off, but this was awesome. We get to hear Russell Brunson talk about money, which is something that, you make a ton of it, but you don't really talk about it, which is awesome. Thanks for sharing a little bit more. Russell: Thank you. I apologize I don't have a framework for this yet, but this gets me thinking, man, if I could figure out something for entrepreneurs, this is the next thing to do, so then I'll talk more about it as I figure things out. But it's fascinating. I remember I bought a Dan Kennedy course on wealth creation, and it was fascinating because I'd heard Dan talk about building businesses and all that sort of stuff, but it was the first time he ever talked about wealth. Again, same thing. Fascinating. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I never thought about that side of the coin because most entrepreneurs don't talk about it, or don't think about it. I think it's important for us to think and talk and do more with it because again, 15 years of never investing anything, man, it would've been nice. I'd be in a different spot right now than I am today, for sure. Thank you, Josh, for hanging out and talking about money. Hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode. If you did, let us know if you want more about money and wealth and these kind of things. Let us know and we'll go deeper on topics. Just take a screen shot of this on your phone, post it, and tag me and write your #1 question you want to hear, and maybe we'll talk about it on the next podcast. Thanks again. Thank you, Josh, and I will see you guys soon.

It's new years, and I know you have a lot of goals. Listen to this episode to find out how to become the person you need to be to actually achieve what you want! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today's episode, you guys have a chance to listening on a really fun actually interview that Josh Forti and I did today about goal setting and what that looks like. I know that we're... At the time we're recording this, it's almost the new year. And so he asked me the questions about how I set goals. How do I make sure I hit my goals and reach them? And what does that look like? And I was excited because it's actually a topic that I'm writing it sensibly about in my new book. And so anyway, a lot of things are top of mind, and we had some fun with it. It went longer than we thought. And so I had to go fast through some things. Someday maybe I'll do a three or five day or two week, two month long event teaching these topics. But hopefully it gives you a head start to kind of figure out what is you want in life? What kind of goals you want to set for this year, and then how you actually make sure you achieve those. Stuff that's fascinating to me and hopefully you guys will find some cool stuff in as well. And at the end of it, there's assignments, so make sure you do it. And if you do that, in fact, I'd block out two or three hours during this new year's break as you're figuring out what you want to with your life over the next 12 months and go through this audio and then actually do the assignment at the end. And if you that, your chances of hitting that goal will dramatically go up. All right, with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. And when we get back, you have a chance to listen in on an interview with me and Josh Forti. What's up, everybody. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today I'm here once again with Josh Forti, and at the time we're recording this it's a little after Christmas. We're getting ready for the new year and world domination. I think today we're going to be talking about how to focus and goal setting, all that kind stuff. Is that right? Is that the- Josh Forti: Yeah. Today's episodes a good one. I'm so excited for this because I mean, we get to listen to Russell Brunson tell us how he picks his goals, how he's going to plan the world. It's going to be great. Russell: I'm excited too because some of you guys know I'm actually working off and on, just depends on, but I have another book in the works that I'm working on and it's my first personal development book. But for me, personal development's definitely around picking a target and running towards it with definiteness of purpose and trying to accomplish the thing. And so as I've been not... I wrote 200 pages of the book, and I told you this when you were out in Boise. Josh: I know. I'm waiting for my copy, Russell. Russell: And then I said, I hated it. So I got... I didn't hate the book. It's actually good stuff. I'm putting it in the new behind the scenes newsletter. I'm putting the chapters in there. So it's being reused, but I wasn't happy with how it turned out as a book book. And so I'm starting over from scratch and rethinking it all. And so that's the phase I'm in right now. But a lot of it is tied around what we're talking about today, so it should be good. I'm excited for this. Josh: Heck yeah. Awesome. Well, let's kick it off and get started with that note. So whenever we sit down for podcast, I go and it's interesting because now that we are doing so many, normally when I do long-form interviews or because we record in batches, right. Normally when I sit down, I'm just like record go. But you can only do that so many times with somebody before you have to start planning topics ahead a time, right? So I'm on the plane yesterday or a couple days ago, whenever we flew back home, and we got to upgrade to first class for like $47. It was great. I'm there on my computer, just have room. And so I was thinking, walking through the topics that we wanted to cover over the next couple episodes and one that kept coming up and my mind kept coming back to is goal setting. Right? We're sitting here. We're coming to the end of this year. The last two years have really just been crazy, right? Like 2020 was super, super uncertain. 2021 was a little bit more certain, but we all know we're not back to reality yet. Right? With everything. And so I was like, all right, how do you set goals? Not only in the midst of just chaos, but just in general, right? Because there's so many different ways you can think about goals and set goals and do targets and all the different things. And so as we wrap up this year, as we bring this year to an end, and as we look ahead to 2022, what are the areas specifically that you look at as far as setting goals, and how do you set goals effectively that you're going to stick to? Because I think that's a big thing for a lot of people is they can write down, like I want to make $1 million this year, or I want to lose weight. You know what I'm saying? But how do we actually do that? Right? Do you break it down? How does that work? Russell: Yeah. So I'd say, again, this is like, we could write a whole 25 book topic on this. So I'll just go over some of the highlights of things I think about. One of them actually I got from Scharf and that was interesting. He spoke at Funnel Hacking Live Orlando, and we did a little session on stage, and it was interesting because he was talking about it from a team building standpoint, but I took this principle back, and I started implementing it with my family and then in my own personal life. And he talked about how a lot of people set a goal like I want to make a million dollars. And he said if you structure it and if you look at it like a football game or a football team, it's different, right? He said, if you sit and look at the goals, there's always the main goal of anyone who's a football player. They want to be in the Hall of Fame. That's their legacy, their legend. There's the Hall of Fame goal. Right? And so that's the first thing is what's the Hall of Fame goal? And then you break it down from there and say okay, now what's the Super Bowl? What do you have to do to win the Super Bowl in football, what the Super Bowl for you, what it is. And then from there you break down to like, okay, what are the things you've got to do to win this game, this quarter, this half and things like that. Right? So it's breaking things down like that. And so I did this with my family like two or three years ago. It was really cool. We said for our family, what's our Hall of Fame goal for our family? What is the big thing where we're like, I made it into the Hall of Fame. I'm a legend. This is amazing. So we set a goal for the family. And I've been thinking about that with ClickFunnels and with me and my mission. What's my Hall of Fame goal? So that's the first thing to think through because it's not something like I'm going to get this year, I'm going to get it. But it's like, I've got to be doing a lot of things to eventually when I retire, I did this thing and I'm in the Hall of Fame, right? What is that for you? Because if you don't know what that is, it's hard to reverse engineer everything backwards. A lot of times entrepreneurs are good at just running, ready, fire, aim, but we're not thinking, and I'm as bad as anyone else. Right? Again, I want to make a million dollars. Then 10, then 100. You keep looking at these things as opposed to what's the end goal of where you're trying to get to. So that's first thing, Hall of Fame goal. And then what's your version in the Super Bowl? And the Super Bowl is more like, in my mind, the next 12 months, like what are you going to do, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so that's the bigger one I think a lot of people are thinking about when you're trying to January 1st setting your New Year's goal. This is your Super Bowl goal. Next 12 months, this is the thing I want to accomplish. And it's not 12 things. Football teams aren't like, okay, I'm going to win the Super Bowl, and I'm going to win this. I'm going to win this. No, there's just one goal. There's one thing that you're focusing on. And then underneath there, there's all the things you've got to do to be able to accomplish that. And that's where these sub-goals come in. Right? And so that's the first phase. Any questions about it before I move on to the next? Josh: Yeah, well, no, just a comment on that. I was reading. I don't have the book next to me. The book Essentialism. Have you ever read that book? Russell: Yes. Back in the day, I did. Josh: Okay. Super, super good. Right? And one of the things that he talks about there is he's like, it's always funny to me when companies say that their company has a lot of priorities. He's like, you can't have a lot of priorities. You can have a priority and then everything else comes secondary. Right? So whenever I walk into a company they're like, our priority is customer service and this, and then list all the other ones. He's like, then you don't have any priorities. Right? And so he is like, when you sit down, what's the number one thing? What is the thing that if that thing happens, it is a success? Right? The whole year, that's what the thing was. And so sitting down, I noticed that for me and my company, for us, our number one priority for next year is not, yes, we have a revenue goal and yes, we have quarter goals and all the different things. But for us, the number one goal is we want to build the very best product in the space for what we do. Right? That is the goal. For 12 months, that is our goal. And so now everything else comes secondary. And so when you're talking about that is like, what is the goal? I love football, right? So football is how I do all my analogies? Right? The Super Bowl is the 12 month goal. Right? And what's interesting about that is the Super Bowl is a collective team goal. The Hall of Fame is an individual goal. Right? Which is super interesting because then you can have your own individual, but then as a team, and as I'm starting to grow a team more, things like that, having that really clear goal, I think, was really cool. So no, just some comments, but no questions on that. '. Russell: I love that. Very cool. So then, and you could tell who I'm studying right now by some of my phrases. I've been going deep into Napoleon Hill and Charles Haanel and all the old time people right now. That's where my mind's been with. And it's interesting because as I study all them, especially Napoleon Hill, what he talks about all the time is you've got to pick a goal, and then you have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. And he uses that phrase, and took me forever. Finally I couldn't even like say the word right because it's such a weird word, but definiteness of purpose. And when I think about that definiteness of purpose is like, this is what I'm doing, the Super Bowl. I'm going forward. There's the goal. I'm not just dabbling and hopefully I'll figure out my way. I've got my sights on the goal, and I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. It means everything is going towards that thing. Right? And so, that's the biggest thing. And I was reading a Charles Haanel book last night, and he's the guy that wrote Master Key System and a bunch of other really cool old books. And what he talked a lot about is just desire. A Lot of people are like, oh, I want to go. I want to hit Two Comic Club, but then their desire isn't big enough to actually get them moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Right? And he shared this story, and I've heard this story a thousand times over the years. I'm sure everyone's heard it. I think my math teacher used to tell, he said it was Euclid that told this story. In this book it was someone different. I don't know what that story is, but basically the dude comes up to the gurus like, "I want to learn how to do whatever. I want to learn how to make money online. I want to learn how to whatever the thing is." Right? And so the guru's like, "Well meet me tomorrow morning at the beach, and I'll show you how to do that." So the next morning, meets the dude at the beach. The guru walks him out in the water, and they get deeper and deeper and deeper. And he gets the point where the water's up to the kid's head or whatever. And he grabs head and shoves it under the water, and he holds him there, and the guy's fighting and failing. And the point is where he is about to die. And then he pulls the guy out of the water and the guy's like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "When you want the thing you want as bad as you wanted air, you're going to get it." And that's this desire thing. So we have the goal. We have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. That becomes the focal point of every thing we're doing. And then the last piece is that desire. Because most people that I find who don't have success, it's because they don't have desire. Right? For me, when I was wrestling, and I wanted to be state champ, I had so much desire. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It was day and night. I'd sit in class, and all I could think about was different wrestling moves and what I could do to increase my strength and my cardio better and how to get the moves better because my desire was so strong for that thing. And for me, business was the same one. When I got into business, I just wanted to figure this out and to make money and to grow a company. I had so much desire that it happened. Right? I think most people just don't have desire. Like, oh, let's just set a goal, and hopefully I make that. If that's what you're going into it, you're not going to be successful. What's the Yoda quote? Josh: Do or do not. There is no try. Russell: Yeah. If you ask him what's your goal? And they're like, "Oh, I'm going to try to whatever." It's like, you're not going to make it. Why not? Because you said I'm going to try to do it. Josh: Right. Russell: You have to be definiteness of purpose. I'm going to be a state champ. I'm going to hit it a Two Comma Club. I'm going to make a million dollars. I'm make 10, I'm going to make a hundred. I'm going to get to a billion dollars. I'm going to get to 200,000 customers. This is what I am doing. And my desire's high. I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose, and that's where it begins with. Josh: Yeah, and I think part of the thing that goes with that is Tony Robbins. Gosh, every time you bring Tony Robbins in, it's never bad. Right? You could do that every single year, and it would never get old. Right? . Russell: Yeah. Josh: But he says this a million times. He's like, you have to be so specific with what you want. Right? He's like people come to me all the time and I've heard him say this a million times, but just, we got second row right behind you because Parker Woodward came over. Shout out, Parker. He's like staring into your soul. And he's like, you want a million? And he is like, you want more money? Fine. Here's a dollar. You have more money move. Get out of my way. Right? Or get out of here. I'm like, dang. Right? If you're not so specific with what you want, you'll get it. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? But it's not going to be what you actually want because you're not specific with it. And so with definiteness of purpose, I feel like one of the keys to that is to be very specific with what that purpose is. Russell: Yep. Yep. Josh: You know what I'm saying? Russell: Oh, I want to get better. I want to get, yeah. It's got to be something tangible. You can touch it. And you know when you got it. You know when you went to the Super Bowl if you got to the Super Bowl or not. You can be like where's your goal last year? Oh, did you hit it? Oh, I don't know. Therein lies the problem. Right? That specific goal, move forward with definiteness of purpose because your desire's not high enough. You don't know if you hit it or not? That's a problem. Josh: Yeah. One more thing on that. I think it also helps you if you can get really... Setting clear goals is like a muscle, I feel like. It's a skillset that's learned. And I was listening to Alex Becker, which I know you know Alex. And dude's like just a mega-genius man. His mind. If I can ever get him on the podcast, I'll let you know because- Russell: You'd get a 30-second podcast with him. Josh: Right. Right. It'd be a profanity-laced thing full of truth. And you'd be like, wow, I have to process. Anyway, I was listening to him. I was watching his training on YouTube Ads and going through. And he is like, what people need to understand is that all of marketing is the exact same thing when it comes to running ads. Right? And actually I still have it written up on my board. He goes, every single person wants the exact same thing. They want a result. They want a consistent system to get there, and they want it fast. That's it. Right? He's like, if you just are able to specifically call out the result, provide the specific system to get there, and do it faster than anybody else, you will win every single time. Right? I feel like a lot of goal setting is that. Right? It's what is the result that you're actually trying to go after and get to? If you're not specific on that result, try marketing something where there's no specific outcome. It's so hard. Right? And so the more clear you can get on that specific outcome, the more clear that you can get on the outcome that you're providing for your customer. I feel like that's a learned skill that transfers in other areas besides just goal setting. You know what I mean? Russell: Oh, for sure. That's awesome. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Becker's smart, man. I did one call with him one time, and it was literally like three minutes long. He's like, "Kid, it's all I got," and it was done. I was like, that was amazing. Anyway, so. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Becker, he's a freak of nature. That's for sure. Russell: Yeah. Okay, I got four more things to talk about related to it. Josh: Okay. Russell: I got this from Tom Bilyeu because Tom's one of those people who is again, just brilliant. And he said something in three or four podcasts, just kind of like as a blah, blah, blah. Just went off on it. And I remember one day, so I finally, I messaged him on text message. I sent an audio message. I was like, okay, you said this. I want to make sure I understand this right. And he wrote back to me, and he messages back. He's like kind of, but you kind of got it all wrong. I'm like, what? So I scheduled a call with him because I was like, I'm writing this book and this thing you just shared was so powerful. I need to map it out. So I spent an hour with him on the phone and mapped it out. I drew it out. I was like, is this what you're talking about? He's like, "Oh yeah. That's what I'm talking about." So it's going to be in the new book because it's core foundational. I'm going to go through with you guys because a lot of times, and I didn't know this, there were things that I did unconsciously related to these things, but now that I consciously know this, I'm going deep in it. In fact, I'm planning our Two Comma Club X Managed Circle members are going to Mexico in March, and I'm thinking I'm going to do a three-day event in Mexico just going deep on this alone because this is the key to everything you want in life. So there's the pre-frame you guys ready for me to jump? Josh: I'm ready. I'm hooked. Russell: Okay. So what Tom said was interesting. He said a lot of times we set a goal, but what we don't realize is that for us to get the goal, we can't be who we are today. Because if we were, we'd already have the thing, right? We have to actually evolve and change and become something different if we're going to achieve the thing we do. So then how do you become something different? And that's where you're in this weird limbo thing. Right? And so there are four core things that really tie into this. And so I'll talk briefly on each one as much as we can in the time we have. So the first one is after you know this is the goal, very specific, definiteness of purpose. I desire to go there. The first thing we have to do is have an identity shift. Right? Our identity has to be different than what we are right now. If we don't shift it, then we struggle. So I started looking back at the things I've had success in life. For me, the very first one was a wrestler. And I remember I got into wrestling. I liked it. And I was good at it, but I wasn't great. I don't have time probably to tell the specific story, but I remember a specific story where something happened where that day I was like, I'm a wrestler. This is me. This is who I am. I'm a wrestler. And as a wrestler, I'm going to do what wrestlers do. Right? And Tom, when I was talking to him, I mentioned that. And he's like, now imagine this. Instead of saying I was a wrestler, what if you said I'm a world class wrestler or I'm a state champion wrestler. He's like just by changing the identity that you're putting on yourself, changes how you view everything. Right? And for me, I viewed myself as a champion wrestler, and I view myself like I'm someone who's a state champion. Therefore, I started looking at what do the state champions do? How are they doing it? What do they believe? What do they think? What do they do? What do they value? And I started matching my beliefs, values, and rules based on that. But the first thing is that you have to realize what's the identity you want to put on yourself? And I think most people don't do it consciously. I didn't do it consciously. But when you become aware of it, it changes things. At Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks talked about identity, and it was such a powerful thing. If we figure out how to put these identities on ourselves, it makes everything else become easier. So the first thing is understanding, okay, what's the identity I've got to put on my shoulders if I'm going to become the person who's going to be able to reach that goal? And we've got to think through that and strategize and figure that out because if you don't, if you pick the wrong identity, like, oh, I'm an athlete, that's good. But I'm not become a world class wrestler if my identity's an athlete. If my identity is I'm a world class wrestler, I'm going to become a world class wrestler. Right? You've got to... When I got into business, it was the same thing. I was dabbling and dabbling and dabbling until I figured out I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And then after that, it wasn't just an entrepreneur. It's shifting, and it's changed throughout time, but the identity is the key because everything struck. You start doing things differently when you have a different identity. One of the identities I've I've recently, and I did a podcast about this, that I've put on myself is that I'm not just an entrepreneur or I'm not like... I'm a curator. And just by me saying that, I've literally bought, I would say conservatively, probably 3000 books in the last three months that I'm buying that I'm going through them, curating old books, trying to figure out all these kind of things because I have the identity. I put the identity upon myself, and all of a sudden, it shifts my behavior because of that. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So identity's the first thing. And again, we could talk for a day on identity, but understanding what is the identity that you're going to have to have to be able to become the person who's going to go get that thing. Josh: Okay. Can I touch on that just really briefly? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Okay. Only because, I don't know, I've spent like a hundred thousand dollars in coaching on this exact topic. So it was so crazy, when I was working with Katie and lots of other people. Have you ever read the book Psycho-Cybernetics? Russell: Yes. Josh: Dude, that book changed. That was the first personal development book I ever read. Russell: I'm trying to find the rights to that book right now, just so you know. Josh: Dude. Dude, ah. Russell: It's so good. Josh: Why do you get to do all cool stuff, Russell? Russell: Curating, that's my identity. It's what I do. Josh: Yeah. But I read that book and it, I mean, it completely changed my whole perspective on life. Right? And for the premise of the book, for those of you don't know, there's a guy. He was a plastic surgeon. He rebuilds people's faces and stuff. And he realized that when he would make even the smallest tweaks in people's faces that it would change their entire life. Everything about their life and their change based on how they saw themselves basically in the mirror. Right? And so this whole premise of the identity, part of it is when you have an identity shift, you actually believe it now. And there's so many people that are like, they want something, but the reason they don't do it is because they don't believe it's possible. They see themself as the person that's able to do that. Right? And so one of the things I thought about doing with the podcast sometime down the road is openly Dream 100ing people. How cool would it be to have on the board of, "Hey guys, we're all Dream 100ing Elon Musk right now." Right? How cool would that? But if you have the identity I'm going to Dream 100 Elon Musk, then all of a sudden, it just becomes, oh, for the next three, five, 10 years, it doesn't matter if you haven't gotten there yet. That's just who you are. It's just what you're trying to do. It's just what you're doing. And by default, your brain starts thinking differently. So anyway, I love that. I don't want to take anymore out of that, but that one concept changed my whole entire life of understanding that if you shift your identity, by default, you'll get to where you want to go. Russell: Yeah. It's huge. And again, I look at the things I've been successful in my life in, and again, looking backwards, I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize that I had an identity shift tangible. And in fact, I remember the day that it happened, and it changed everything for me. It was the day I became a wrestler. It was the day I became an entrepreneur. It was the day... It shifts things. And so, ah, anyway, so that's number one. So identity. Now under identity, if you look at my graphic, identity is at the top, and there's three pillars that go underneath identity. And they're all super powerful, and they all have different purposes and things. So if you look at one of the legs under identity is beliefs. What do you believe? And beliefs are cool. Because beliefs, I feel like beliefs can change. I have to figure what are the beliefs I need to have to be able to achieve this thing, right? If I believe that making money's difficult, I am not ever going to make money. If I believe making money's easy, it's going to be really easy for me to make money. Right? If I believe that I'm a good athlete, I'm going to be able to be a good athlete. If I believe that eating healthy is going to make me have more success, I'm probably going to eat more healthy. And so in the second phase, figure out what are these beliefs that you need to have? And some of them you already have inherently, a lot of them you don't yet. And so that's why when you have this identity, it's like, well man, if I want to be a world class wrestler, what do world class wrestlers believe? If I want to be an entrepreneur, what do world class entrepreneurs believe? Right? What are those beliefs? That is sitting down physically, I've been doing this recently. This is part of my New Year's thing I'm doing now is I'm listing out here are all the things I either believe or I need to believe to be able to hit this goal. Right? And so I start writing out these beliefs. Now the thing about beliefs that's hard is just by you writing down I believe this thing, does not necessarily mean you're going to believe that thing. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And this is where like most of personal development is affecting this tier, this leg of this thing. If I knew to believe I need to be successful, like I'm going to go read a bunch of Tony Robbins books because he's going to help me instill this belief in me until I actually believe it. Or I'm going to listen to a bunch of podcasts or whatever that thing might be. Right? Or if I believe that eating healthy is going to make me more successful. You may say I know I need that belief, but I don't really believe right now. That's why I keep going back to cookies and candies and ice cream or whatever. Right? So you need to instill that belief, so this is where a personal development comes. If I believe this belief is going to help me get the thing I need to do, I need to go listen to everybody that's talking about health or fitness or whatever that is until that belief becomes so ingrained in my psyche that now I actually believe it. Because when I believe it, now it becomes really easy to do. When I believed in wrestling that if I got on top of anybody in this country that I could turn them, then guess what? As soon as I got on top of anybody in this country, I could turn them, right? Because I believed it at such a deep level. I always tell people my core job at ClickFunnels is be the belief cheerleader. If I can get you guys to believe in yourselves, that's it because it's not that difficult. All these things are not hard. The hardest thing is getting you to believe it's actually going to work. Right? And believe if I buy ads, it's going to work, believing that I'm going to lose money on the front end, but it's going to be successful. I believe that if I put myself out there, it's not going to be scary. I believe, so it's like, I've got to get you to believe those things, but if you can do it, then it becomes easy. So I look at who's already achieved what I want? What are the things that they believe? And then I've got to start focusing on getting those beliefs wired into my brain so that I actually believe them. Okay? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I always tell people this, the biggest problem we have as humans is we always want to try to conform the world to what we believe, and that's not the right strategy. Especially, I see this in religion all the time where people are trying to convince like, this is what God should believe. It's like, no, no, no. If you really want to be successful in religion, you've got to figure out what does God believe? And then you shift your beliefs to that. You don't try to bend God's will to yours. That's insane. Why would you even think that's okay. We need to believe that he believes, it's not trying to get him to believe what I believe. Right? And that's the extreme example is religion in God, but it's true in anything. Right? If I was going to be basketball player, I would go figure out what Michael Jordan believes, and I would do everything I can to believe what he believes. I would not be trying to conform Michael Jordan's belief patterns to mine. Okay? Because he's done it, and I haven't yet. Right? And so that's the next step is figuring out what are the beliefs I have to have to be successful? And then I've got to go and start plugging the stuff into my ears and my head and be reading and listening and everything until these beliefs become so real that they become real. Because that's the hardest thing. The beliefs are the one, the other two I'm going to share are much more simpler, I think. Beliefs are the ones that are, they come and they go. And this is where it takes the mental mind power to make those things actually stick. Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. No for sure. No, I have so many thoughts on that. But for the sake of time, oh my gosh. Belief, I think that's the hardest thing. Like you said, it's one of the hardest things though. But I love the religion example because it's like, what was that? There's that one quote on it that says we will question everything except for the things we truly believe. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? And religion is a perfect example of this. I believe that Jesus came down to die on the cross for my sins. I believe that. Russell: Yeah. Josh: I've never even questioned it, and I've questioned pretty much everything in my belief. But I'm like, if I believe Christianity to be true, I by default believe that. Right? I believe that that happened. And so when I talk to people that don't have that world view, you're not even having the same conversation. It's not even worth debating on some particular topic about right or wrong or this because they don't believe this and I do. And it's a fundamental different thing about you. So yeah, anyway. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Talk a million years on it. Russell: That's true because, so when I'm on mission for my church, I, not to get religion, but I had that same thing. I was out there knocking on doors, telling people about God and about Jesus. And all of a sudden I realized, oh my gosh, most people don't believe in this. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was freaky for me. All the way back to do I actually believe in Christ? Do I actually believe there's a God? And I had to question those things and figure it out and get the belief. And then it was strengthening everything I was doing moving forward. But same thing in anything we're doing in life. So beliefs are beliefs. Josh: We'll do the Mormon episode because I have questions for you on that. I've got to finish the podcast first. We're not done all the way done yet. But that'll come once I know everything you believe, Russell, then I'm going to come question you on it. Russell: Yeah. I'm excited. One thing it'd be cool if you guys want, if you type in to Google type in Tom Bilyeu Impact Theory beliefs. He actually has a list that he makes all people who join his member site go through these belief patterns. And they're fascinating. And it's seeing Tom mapping out for his community here's the beliefs that we have as a community if we're going to have the impact. And so it's worth it to go look at his beliefs. It's as related to his members and his membership platform. But it's something you guys can use this as well if you are serving group of entrepreneurs or a group of whoever you're serving, when they come in, helping them to identify and strength. Like these are a the beliefs you have to have to be successful in our world. And Tom did it such a cool way. I've not yet done that in my world, but I'm planning on that because again, if people are joining my coaching program, they want to become more like me, therefore, what do I believe that got me here? I need to be able to identify those things and give them to people and then help drill those things into their mind because that's what's going to be successful as they believe those things. And so belief is just, anyway. We can go again, this is another three day event just on beliefs. Josh: All right, all right. Russell: Okay. I'll go through the other two. The other two are not simpler, but they're easier. Okay, so we have identity at the top, right? Identity shift, boom. Beliefs, and again, map these things out, you guys literally between now and New Year's or whatever you're listening to this, sit out and write out here's all the beliefs I have to believe to be able to be successful in this thing that I'm trying to figure out. And for me, it's funny as I've been doing this, I've been listening to a lot of Tony Robbins's stuff or reading Napoleon Hill. Tony will tell, like when he speaks, he's like, you've got to believe this, and he shares a belief. And I started putting those things in. Like I want to keep building up my belief. These are all things I believe in because if I can believe those things in myself, again, my likelihood of success. So this is an ever-going thing. It's not just like, here's my beliefs, and it's done. It's like if you're hearing speakers or podcasts or books or whatever, like, oh this is the belief I need to have. I see why this is such a powerful thing to start adding these things into your version of your beliefs. Okay? The next one. So you have your beliefs. The next one I'm going to go to is values. And values and beliefs are very similar, but values, I feel like, are more so... Beliefs are things that I've got to be working on to get myself the belief things to move forward. Values are what I actually value. For me, I value hard work. Okay? In fact, I have so many friends who their beliefs are different. One of my really good friends, John Jonas, who owns OnlineJobs.ph, super successful company, great entrepreneur. But he values being able to work as little as humanly possible and still make money. And he does. And he's been very successful. I value working my face off because my whole value system growing up was wrestling. We worked hard. We had at work everybody. So I value hard work, and I love it, and I enjoy it, and I'm never going to... My values are not John's, and that's okay. They're going to be different, but I need to know what my values are because if I'm going to go into something, if this is not aligned with my values, I'm not going to have success with it. So I need to know what my values actually are. And so what are the things you value? I value hard work. I value giving. I value creation. I value... Top of my head, I don't have my list here, but what are the things you actually value? Okay? And then as you're looking- Josh: We know hard work has to be close to the top of that list because that's the one that came out first when you can't remember anything else. Russell: And for sure, for me, it is. It's such a core value. But if me and John were both going after the same goal, which is let's grow our company by whatever, he's going to struggle because his value's not going to be hard work, and vice versa, for he's like I want to take four to five days of vacation every single month, that goal is never going to work for me because I don't value those things like he does. And so it's going to be constant odds with ourselves. Right? So listing out here's all the values you have and understanding those things and again, you can shift your values and values change. But values are harder to change, I believe. Beliefs, I can change, not faster, but those things are multiple whereas values, based on my life experience, these are things I value, and those things are there. They're not going to shift or disappear or leave. These are my values. Josh: Yeah, very rarely. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: But if I list those things then I can look at as I'm trying to become this person, do these fit in my values? If not, it's like, how do I structure this in a way where it still fits and it's still congruent with my values because otherwise you're going to be odds to yourself. And I know so many people who are like, they have one value but they have a goal and they're those things are at odds with each other. And that's why they never succeed because they're just, I want this goal, but I don't value this. Therefore, you can't hit it. Josh: Yep. Russell: So beliefs, values, and the last ones are your rules. Okay? And your rules are like, you set up these, it's almost like guideposts to get the thing. Right? So when I was wrestling, I had a lot of rules. My rules were I do not cut corners. I have a story behind that, but I do not cut corners. I don't drink carbonation. One of my other rules was I'll never go more than 24 hours without doing some kind of cardio because I had a belief that after 24 hours, if I haven't worked out that my cardio would drop down, and I didn't want to lose anything. So I had a rule saying I cannot work out. So I could take Sunday off, but I can't take Saturday and Sunday. Right? I had a rule of no more than 24 hours of no cardio. I had rules of what time I woke up in the morning, what time I went to bed. I had all these rules, and rules bleed into routines. Right? So you set these rules, and from there you create a routine. So looking back, here's the goal I have, I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Here's all the rules I have to create to give me boundaries to make sure that I move forward and I hit those things. And so for me, my rules right now are like, okay, I have to make sure I write for two hours every morning before I come in. Because if I don't do that, none of my writing gets done. I have a rule about this and rule about this, and I have these different rules I create for myself to give me boundaries, to be able to actually hit my goal. And then the rules again, here's the rules. The rules are translating into routines. Right? So here's my rules. I tie these into my morning routines, my afternoon routines, my night routines. And now I've got the things I need to guide me to the goal. Whew. So there's a lot of stuff in there. Josh: That's really, really good though. I feel like if someone were to just go and apply that right there, that sounds simple, but it's not. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? If you were to actually go sit down like that, you could map out that for a while, and I see why you want to do a three day event on it or something like. That'd be awesome to go through each one of those because you're literally rewriting. So how I think of the mind is I think of the mind as a computer system, and then the story, the master story, ha-ha. The master story of your mind. Right? But the master story is the computer program that you program it. Right? So there's the Windows operating system inside of a computer, right? Or the Mac. And so the master story is like the operating system. And by going through and identifying and writing down those three things, it's like you're rewriting your operating system almost that by, or if you've never done it, you're writing your operating system because your subconscious mind by default then just carries that 80% of the way. Right? And that's the coolest thing is if you can just switch your subconscious mind, 80% of the work is done. It'll do it for you. Right? You've only got to battle that last 20%. So that's super cool. Russell: Yeah. So if we were to recap this really quick, for those who are like, I want to do this exercise with my kids or my family or by myself, I sit down and say, "Okay, what's the Hall of Fame goal?" Where do you want to go someday? Right? So you've got that, right? Then from there, say, "What's the Super Bowl goal?" That's what I'm going to accomplish the next 12 months. Here's my Super Bowl goal. And I have that, and say, "Okay, now to do this, I've got to have desire, and I've got to have definiteness of purpose." Meaning I have to really, really want the thing or it's not going to happen. Why do I want it? How do I amplify that desire in my head? And where am I going, right? Now we come back and say, "Okay, what's the identity I need to take on to be able to achieve this thing?" Right? And be specific with the identity. I'm a wrestler versus I'm a world class wrestler versus I'm an Olympic level wrestler. Right? So here's the identity to have. So write that down. And identity is just one thing. This is the one thing I am. Then now what are all the beliefs I have that I need to have to be able to be successful in this thing? Okay, I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. This is what I already do believe, but a lot of it's new beliefs I need to create to be able to be successful. Right? And then who are the things I value and making sure I'm not out of alignment here. I value this. I value this. Here are the things I value. And then here's the rules I need to create for myself to make sure I actually move forward and hit that thing. And I'm going to take these roles, and I'm going to convert them into routine to make sure that I'm in the guardrails to my success. And so that's the pieces and ah, it's so much fun. Again, this will be a book someday if I ever get it done. But these are the pieces that are- Josh: Yeah, Russell, we need it. Come on, man. Not like your life's busy. Get it done. Russell: I'm working my fastest. It's going to be amazing. So anyway, I hope that helps you guys. As you're sitting down this year, this is literally what I'm doing. We're recording this December 28th. I've been mapping these things out. And my goal is January 1st, I'm waking up, and I'm just going to sit down and I'm going to flush these things and spend hours just putting it... Again, I've been percolating on them and taking notes on stuff, and I'm going to map it out, have it printed out. And this is the next 12 months of my life. This is the goal. This is where we're going and moving forward with definiteness of purposes. I'm going to just amplify my desire. Here's the identity I've got to take on to make it successful. Here's my beliefs, my rules, my values. And let's go and start running. So hopefully that helps. Josh: One more super rapid fire question then we can wrap it up. Russell: Okay. Josh: Do you have a coach that helps you with this, or do you do it all yourself? Russell: Oh, very good question. So during my life, I always go on and off with different coaches that have helped different parts. Right now. I do not have a coach. How do you say this right without being creepy. I don't have a coach who's living right now. Right now I am looking at authors as my coach. And for me right now, Napoleon Hill is the person I'm focusing on, who I'm literally going through so much of his stuff right out and having him accountable to me. I will in the near future rehire a coach to help me, but I'm still trying to, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm trying to- Josh: Yeah, no, no, for sure. Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's awesome. That's good. Russell: Anyway. Josh: All right. Thanks Russell. That was awesome. Russell: Hope you guys enjoy it. If you enjoyed this episode with me and Josh, please let us know. Take a screenshot of the podcast on your app, tag me in it. Let us know your favorite thing, biggest takeaway. And with that said, I hope you guys enjoy the new year, planning it out. And I want you to all hit your Super Bowl goals over the next 12 months. So let's do it. If you do that, you'll change the world in your own little way, and it'll be awesome. So thanks, Josh. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you guys on the next episode.

Russell and Josh reveal the 2 biggest biohack, supplements, diets, brain food, focus & marketing. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody? This is Russell, welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. Today's episode we are going to get into a little bit of some biohacks and some things, diet, energy, supplements, what we do to be able to have our brains stronger so we can be better entrepreneurs. This was a really fun conversation, I think you're going to love it. You're going to see some of the weirdness happening in my brain, what I do, why I do it. And hopefully it gives you guys a place to start when you start looking at how do you change your health to be able to have more success in business. So hopefully you enjoy this conversation. Also, at the end of it, Josh pitches his new podcast, which is coming out here in a couple weeks, couple months. And I think I'm episode number one, so I'm sitting down with him for a two hour conversation here in the near future. Make sure you get on the waiting list for his podcast it is JoshForti.com/coming soon. And again, he'll do a little pitch for it at the end. But anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation about biohacking, supplements, health, and how it relates to you as an entrepreneur. Welcome back everyone to the Marketing Secrets podcast. We're about to move into the third topic, I don't know what it is, but I'm pumped to find out. So what's the third topic? Let's go. Josh Forti: All right, Russell, so here's the ding. You're this dude who you've got this super, super successful company, but anybody that has followed you that knows you a little bit, right? All the newbies out there might not. But you're a wrestler and you to be successful in all areas of life, which is really cool, it's one of the reasons I follow you is because you're not just... I'm going to throw rocks to Grant Cardone here, Grant we love you, but also all you care about is money. So get a life. All right? But anyway, so you have more of this complete picture, this more complete thing that you're trying to go through and do. And so for me, one of the things that I've been focusing on a lot, and it's always interesting because whatever I focus on, I share on social media. And then when I share it on social media, people start giving me ideas back, and half the time it's really great ideas, and then half the time people just hate me for no reason. They're like, you're so dumb. I'm like, oh my gosh. Okay. But anyway, for me, right now, one of the things I've been really focused on is health and fitness. Right? And I remember, I don't know, it was a year ago or whenever it was that you were freaking out about bone broth. Right? And you were like bone broth is going to be the greatest thing. Oh my God. Or whatever it is, it's going to be so cool. And it's going to help me cure cancer and not get it or whatever. And I'm like, you're so weird, dude. I don't even understand. Because I wasn't in it, right? I didn't understand it. And then I got married and my wife is a yoga instructor and so she's super, super fit. And now I'm at this point in my life where I'm like, man, my brain feels foggy a lot of days and I want it to be clear. And I'm like, oh crap, there's Russell over there talking about bone broth that one time, he was talking about brain health and all these different things. I'm like, I got to go figure this all out now. And so I hired the Shockley's. Do you know the Shockley's by the way? Kelly and Jay Shockley? They've been in Steve's MasterMind and stuff for a while. They're students of mine now, they're awesome. They live here and they do total body mastery. And it's basically, they come in, they take 15 different blood samples and hair analysis, urinalysis, all this stuff. And they go and test every single different level of your body, and they basically tell you if you're going to die or not. It's pretty great. And so I went and did that and I geeked out and came back and I'm like, there's so much here. And so I'm curious, and I think a lot of people that are, they reach a certain phase in their journey of entrepreneurship and marketing where they're like, okay, I've made some money now. So now I'm not worried about if I'm going to be able to pay the bills or pay off the credit card. And now I've got some money in the bank. And so now they start thinking about more important things. And one of the biggest things that comes up is their health, right? It's, how do I take care of my brain? How do I take care of my body? How am I going to make sure there's longevity? How do I make better decisions? Anybody that's ever studied personal development knows your brain is like this, it takes 80% of the energy in your body every day. It's like something stupid. Right? So I guess let's start with, how do you go and figure out what you're going to focus on? And what's your routine for health? What are the areas that you focus on and how did you figure out that those were the areas you should be focused on? Russell: Yeah. Great questions. It's funny because I think everyone goes through cycles where, remember I used to make fun of the people who were like me. I'll call them hippies. Like, "Oh they're such hippies." And now I'm like, "Dude, I love the hippies, they got all the good stuff. I love these people." You know? But yeah, I think the biggest thing is... It was tough for me because I was a wrestler my whole life, so I always consider myself an athlete. I thought I was in good shape. I thought... And I was. I thought I understood nutrition, I did not. I wish I could go back and compete knowing now what I know now. And so it was weird, I got done with wrestling and then my wife got pregnant with twins, literally during my last wrestling term, she was on fertility. But I wrestled in my last tournament and we found out a week later we're pregnant of twins. And then we were excited, and I wasn't wrestling or competing or working out. She was eating for three. I was eating for three or four as well. And I gained I think about, my senior year I wrestled 165. When I came back to go wrestle the next year after I graduated with the new team, I was so big, they made me wrestle the heavy weights. So I'd gained probably conservatively 60 to probably almost 80 pounds while my wife was pregnant. Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: And then one day she had twins and lost 60 pounds overnight and I had 80 pounds on Russell. But it's weird because you don't see it. I didn't see it. I remember going back to wrestle at Boise State, and I walked through the door and Ben Cherrington, who's actually Gaethje's wrestling coach, I walked in and Cherrington is like, "Dude, your face is so fat." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "What happened to you?" I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about." I couldn't see it. You know? And it was just weird. And anyway, so for the next seven or eight years I was in business and I didn't think about it. I was like, I had so much energy here and focus there, I didn't think about it. And eight years into my business is the very first time I remember feeling, I think I was on stage or something. And I used to wear a tie, and the tie wouldn't fit around my neck anymore. It was all this stuff and I was just like, oh, I just felt crappy. And finally I was like, okay, I have to figure this out. So I hired a trainer, got on a plan, and in seven or eight months I went from, I don't know, whatever, 26, 28% body fat down to 12% body fat. And that was cool and I felt better by myself. But the thing that I noticed the most was that I could get more done during the day. And that's when I was like, oh my God, health actually matters, not just... Like for me, if you look at my disc profile, my number one value is economics. So if I don't see the ROI of something, I won't do it, which is why I sucked at school. That's why I suck at a lot of things is because if I don't see an ROI, I would rather die than do the thing. And all of a sudden I saw the ROI of health, I was like, okay. I was like, by shifting my health, I was able to get two to three times more stuff done every single day. ROI of that is I'm getting three years worth of work done every year, which means I'm going to crush everybody else. Therefore, I'm going to go deep on this. And so that was the thing that sold me on it was just, I saw the ROI and then I became obsessed. And so I'll take you through my journey because there's different levels of things I've learned. And again, I could probably someday will write a 5,000 page book on this because it excites me. But there's the things that are the big lever, like the big levers had the biggest impact. So I'll talk about those. Josh: Yeah. Russell: The first one I understood- Josh: Can I just say a quick side note? Russell: Yeah. Josh: I love how you're coughing as we're talking about health. LOL. That's funny. Russell: I know the one time I've been sick in a decade and it's right now. Yeah it's weird, I have a stuffy noses and a... Anyway, I'm in a season of my life where there's not much sleep because my kids are wrestling. And so I leave every day at 2:30 to go to wrestling practice, and then they're cutting weight at night, and then there's tournaments, and I still got to do all the stuff I got to do. So I'm up every morning earlier than normal. Josh: It's like you're busy Russell. Geez. Russell: Yeah. It's a lot, so my health is suffering a little bit right now, which is why I am spending more time on health stuff right now because I'm losing sleep so I got to make up for it in other places. By the way, sleep though is the number one performance drug you can do. In fact, it's interesting if you study all the biohackers, the two or three biggest things is sleeping more and more sunlight, like going outside with your shirt off, getting natural vitamin D, those help more than almost any biohack you can dream, any supplement, anything. It's sleep and sunlight are the two biggest biohacks. And so, anyway, we should all spend more time outside and we should sleep more. But those are hard sometimes where, nowadays we're not sleeping and we're in an office, so those are the things. So okay, I'll step back. So the first big thing I noticed when I started the health journey back now, it's been probably 14, 15 years ago now... Maybe not that long, maybe 10 years. Anyway, whatever it was, is I went through different diets. Right? So I did a bodybuilding high protein diet, which had lower carbs. I also went through the ketogenic diet because I spent a lot of time with Pruvit when the keto movement was starting, helping them launch that. So I was trying to understand, and I went to through that. But the biggest thing I started learning is how carbs affected my brain. If I eat carbs, it made me tired, faster. You know after post Thanksgiving dinner, you eat and then all of a sudden you can't keep your eyes open. People say, it's the tryptophan in Turkey, I don't believe that, it's the mashed potatoes. Josh: I don't believe that either. I just found out this Thanksgiving that apparently Turkey makes you sleepy. I'm like, that is not the case. It is just food in general. I eat any amount of food that much, I'm sleepy. Russell: Yeah, well it's not just food, it's the carbs. The carbs make your brain tired, at least for me. And so I started realizing that, I was like, I don't want to not eat carbs because the carbs have a very important role. I did the whole keto thing for a long time where I just only ate fats, and that I don't think is right either. So your body needs all the things, but I time my day based on those things now because I know that when I introduce carbs, I'm going to be tired. So I don't introduce carbs early in the day. I don't typically eat breakfast, when I'm eating lunch it's usually high fats and high proteins. And then when I do carbs it's at night, when I do actually want my body to start falling asleep. And so if you notice, like if you look at my eating cycles, I'm still eating the same things most people are eating, but I'm eating them in different orders. Right? Like my lunch, if I'm ordering lunch today off Uber Eats, it's going to be a poke bowl and it's going to come with no bass. So no rice, no nothing, but I'm going to have fish, I'm going to have five different fish in there. Right? Because the fish has high protein plus high fat content, which affects your brain. So I'm going to eat that fish, that's going to be my brain food. But I'm not eating carbs because I don't want carbs yet. I need carbs in my diet, I need it in my body, but I don't want it until I want my body to naturally fall asleep anyway. Right? So dinner time, usually I'll be lower on carbs and as it gets closer to bedtime, then I'll go and have my rice or whatever my carbs are going to be. And because I'm like, okay, I want my brain to shut down anyway. It's like, that's when I'll introduce those things into my diet. And so for me, it's like the timing of food has been really, really big because I would normally, back in the day I eat breakfast, I have cereal for breakfast or something and I'm wrecked for the day. Or I would skip breakfast, I eat lunch and then lunch I'd go order something and it'd be a sandwich. Right? And I eat the sandwich and all the bread and I'd lose the last half of the day. So I'm very, very sensitive on how I'm timing, where I'm introducing the carbs in the day so that I can keep my focus as much as possible during the windows where I need my brain sharp and fast and ready. So that's the first phase of it for me, that's been the big thing, because that brain fog is the worst. You're like- Josh: Is the worst. Russell: I need to be... And you can cover it with caffeine. And so you kind of have it, but it's not the same. You don't have the same sharpness when you have the brain fog and caffeine. It's like going into a bathroom where it stinks and they spray Poo Pourri. It's like, now it smells like Poo Pourri flavored poop. You know what I mean? They're both there. Josh: Right, right. Russell: It's like, it's not actually clean in here. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Do you use Nootropics or anything at all? Joe Rogan has that Alpha... Or I don't know if it's his, but he does that Alpha BRAIN or whatever. I use that and that... I mean, I don't use it all the time, but whenever I need to be focused, because I usually take Adderall and- Russell: The hardcore stuff. Josh: Don't take Adderall people. It's the best ever, but it is straight up... Alex Sharfin did something on it one time. And once I learned what was in Adderall, I was like, "Oh, all right. So if I take that long term, I'm basically on crystal meth basically." I mean, not, but it's like the same thing. So Adderall's great, but it's not a long term sustainable thing. So I did Alpha BRAIN and stuff, which is much healthier. Do you use anything like that? Russell: Yeah. So there's a range in this stuff, because a lot my friends are the hardcore biohackers, and there's a range. And there's, for me there's a cutoff line of where I feel comfortable. And most of my friends go way beyond that cutoff line, where I don't feel comfortable. So it's tough, you get in the Nootropic world, I feel like you got to have your, this is as far as I'll go, because if you're not careful, I have friends who pushed it all the way to the spot where there's stuff that I think they're crazy for because man, you mess up your brain you are screwed. You know what I mean? And it's not worth sometimes the increasing of, oh I'm going to get more focus here. But there's a potential of damage. So yeah. So Alpha BRAIN's great, Alpha BRAIN's definitely on the left hand side of, I can take this stuff, I feel comfortable. I love ketones, I'm still a big ketones' believer. I'm trying to think off the top of my head. There's different ones that are good. Right? For me, when you start getting into the racetams, there's a whole family of race, that's where I start freaking out. For me, my cutoff line is right before that and I don't go there because the racetams stuff and then after that, then there's the more hardcore stuff and there's microdosing on things, then there's like- Josh: Psychedelics. Yeah. Russell: Crazier and crazier, and I do not cross that line because my brain, I'd rather have... People that want the last 10% from these crazy things is not worth the potential death. Josh: But is that also a religious thing for you? Or is that? Russell: For sure. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: 100% religious. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Definitely religious belief, but even more so, for me it's... I don't know. I've had so many friends who... And I don't want to get political on all the different drugs and things like that. I could, if people want to, but- Josh: You can come on my show, we'll talk about it there. Russell: But honestly, I have so many friends who smoke weed because it makes them more creative. I've had friends who the brain shuts off because of it. So the potential, I might be more creative, but I could lose my brain, is not worth any amount of, that's a risk I will not ever take. Alcohol is the same thing. People are like, oh, I do this because it relaxes me. But I've seen the opposite side of that. It's like, I don't know. Yeah, I have my line, I think everyone should have a line. But there are some really good Nootropics out- Josh: I want to talk to you about that more. We'll do it on my show, because I'm super curious to know your thoughts on that too, because I smoke weed sometimes too. Russell: That's why you want to bring me on that. You're from Colorado, I know. I'm not against it- Josh: Yeah, it's legal here people. Russell: I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole, no matter what of positive benefits might be on one side. So there's that. Josh: We can talk about that more at another time. But anyway, back to the- Russell: So the Nootropics stuff, so that's good. But supplementation as a whole, I used to just go and randomly buy every supplement that had a good sales pitch, because I'm a good sales guy and I love getting sold. I remember Anthony DiClementi came to my house one time and he saw my supplements and he was like, "You're taking everything, which is good." But also he's like, "There's crossover because a lot of supplements, they want a marketing pitch, they'll put 12 things in it." And all of a sudden I'm taking 30 pills and all 30 of them have this crossover, and all of a sudden I'm taking unhealthy levels of whatever this ingredient, because there's a little bit in 40 different things. Right? And so I started getting more strategic. In fact, Braven, who spoke at Funnel Hacking Live, his dad has been doing these really cool things. I'm trying to figure out, he's coming out next week actually to do some more work with me. But I'm trying to figure out how to help turn that into a business that I can introduce to entrepreneurs, but basically comes and tests your blood. And basically your blood testing is like, Hey, instead of just randomly taking stuff because you think so, it's like, here's where your markers are at, and then they create custom supplements based on that. They get all these- Josh: That's literally what the Shockley's did for me. That's 100%. I have this whole long list, like this long of every single different level of every nutrient in my body. It's crazy. Russell: Those are really powerful because then you're not just guessing and you can get in trouble when you're guessing. I've seen people who've had issues because they've shotgun approached it, which I've done for years in the past. And so I'm a big believer in that now, where you're taking stuff, and so to make sure you're optimized is a big thing. And one of the fascinating things, I've heard people talk a lot about gut health in the past, but I didn't understand gut health until I did this because he was showing me that the amount of fats and proteins I'm taking aren't being digested enough based on my blood levels. And he's like, the biggest thing that I need to do is start focusing more on my gut. And so I didn't really know what that meant, so this has been a big, huge thing for me now that has had a huge impact, is understanding gut health and how to do things like that. So a couple things. Number one, I have this on my desk here in my house, this is... What are these things called? These are the digestive enzymes. Right? These are actually Braven's, if you go to GainesinBulk.com you can buy them, but these are the digestive enzymes. So before I eat anything now, I pound a handful of digestive enzymes, just consistently, because it helps you digest your food. If you've got lactose intolerance, if you've got, which I do, I'm lactose intolerant on some things, it helps your body digest those things so you don't have the same issues. You have less gash, you have less bloating, less annoyance when you eat. So I pound these before every single meal. That's my first tier is digestive enzymes, I'm sold on those. I carry a little pouch to me when I travel, every I go, and before I eat anything, I pound enzymes, and that's been a big gut health thing. Number two is, every society outside of America, they eat fermented food with every meal, but Americans don't. So in Germany they eat Sauerkraut, in China it's kimchi, there's different things like that. And so that was a big thing, he's like, "Your proteins aren't being digested because you don't have anything fermented in your stomach at any given time." And so now I buy a jar of Sauerkraut and every night at dinner, when I'm eating my bigger meal, I eat Sauerkraut with the meal because it's getting those things in there. And I used to hate Sauerkraut, there's some really good ones actually nowadays that are insanely good. So I eat Sauerkraut a lot. Kombucha, I used to make fun of that. And some kombucha scared me, because they're really high alcohol content, but- Josh: Oh really? I didn't know that. Russell: Yeah. So for me it's like, but there's some kombucha, the kombucha, however you say it, they'll actually pull the alcohol content out of it. There's some that taste like, I don't have it right here, but there's these ones, there's a whole company. There's a company that made kombucha's that taste like Coke and Dr. Pepper and Mountain Dew. And it literally tastes exactly like Coke and Dr. Pepper, and Mountain Dew, and it's kombucha. Josh: No way. Russell: Insanely good. So those are- Josh: Okay, you got to send me a link to that. I got to try that. Russell: Yeah, they're awesome. And then this is my new obsession, it's called Alive, GTs puts it out, and it's a mushroom Root Beer and it's got reishi, chaga, and turkey tail. I drink two of these a day, they deliver to my house from Whole Foods. I am obsessed, these are my favorite thing in the world. And it's all gut health stuff. So it's figuring those things out. The first tier of gut health is digestive enzymes, the second is fermented food while you're eating, then third is adding in kombucha's and things like that, it just helps your body break down stuff, digest it, and it gets... Because I don't know about you, but for years I'd eat stuff and I'd just get digested and bloated and then you don't feel good. You don't want to do things. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And now I don't have those problems like I used to. And that's been a huge... Anyway, so those are some of the tiers of things. Like for me, it's timing my food, taking supplements, like Nootropics and things to a certain level to help increase your mind. Josh: Right. Russell: And then the gut stuff is, your gut and your mind. There's studies I've read, I don't know how, I don't understand it all, but they say when you're an embryo your brain and your gut are connected, and then they separate and there's this brain gut thing. And so when your gut's not doing well, it affects your brain and vice versa. So it's like those two organs are the ones to really focus on the most. Josh: Yeah. My mom was big, so my sister, when she was, oh gosh, I think it was five years old, had epilepsy. Like seizures every eight minutes, like full out seizures, completely. And we took her to the number one child epilepsy doctor in the whole world that was over in the Cleveland Clinic. And they like looked at my parents and were like, "We have no idea what's wrong with your daughter. She's just going to have seizures for the rest of her life." And my mom went on this whole thing and cured her through diet. And that's when she discovered the whole gut thing and everything like that. And so ever since then, my mom's... I always tell my mom, I'm like, "Mom I love you to absolute death, obviously when you die it's going to be the worst thing ever." And I'm like, "One of the biggest things I'm going to miss when you're gone is whenever I have a problem, whenever I'm sick, whenever I don't feel well, whatever, I just call my mom." And I'm like, "Mom, what do I do?" And she knows, and it's always the natural thing. I haven't been to the doctor in probably 10 years because anything that's wrong, I just call her so- Russell: Natural is good. Josh: Yeah. She's all about that. Russell: Natural stuff is fascinating. Like again, I used to make fun of people and say they're hippies, but man, I got a Natural Path here in town I go to. Before Funnel Hacking Live I was like, I can't get COVID. And so he came in and hooked me up to IVs and things and all these. It's crazy. They do muscle testing, what things your body needs. I don't know. Again, all this stuff I used to think was like crazy, woo-woo, weird stuff. And the more I get into it, the more I'm just like, man, this stuff's amazing. I think everyone should find a Natural Path, find something that's good. As a first line of defense it's preventative, but also when you do get sick, looking at those options, because they don't wreak havoc on your body like some of the... And there's a time and a place for all those things, right? There's time to play- Josh: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Russell: You need traditional medicine, but man, there's this non-traditional side that's based off of thousands of years of people doing this stuff that is amazing. And it's looked down upon here in America unfortunately, I think it's gaining more and more popularity. But man, it's fascinating and important to, I think for all of us to understand and to be willing to look at. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Well, I appreciate you sharing more about that. I'm sure that you could talk about that for a long time. Last question on that and then we can wrap it up here. What are the things that you just absolutely stay away from in your diet? I mean, obviously for you, there's some faith elements in there too, so feel free to talk about that. We already talked about hard drugs and things like that, but diet related. Do you drink soda? Or are there certain things that you absolutely stay away from and you just don't do for health reasons? Russell: Yeah. So really decide, as a Mormon, it's alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea, those are just chopped off. And then anything worse than that obviously like- Josh: And tea? Russell: Yeah. I think- Josh: I didn't know tea was- Russell: We can have green teas, but not like the... Or something. I don't know. I don't even know. Josh: I don't like tea, but that's super interesting. I didn't realize tea. I knew alcohol, tobacco and coffee. Russell: Yeah. Then on the other side, then it's like, as I was trying to master and understand really diet and stuff, when all is said done calories... And again, I'm friends with all the health influencers, so I see the wars online, calories versus that and all that stuff. But calories do matter, but the type of calories matter as well, right? You can lose weight on a Twinkie diet, if you're eating 1500 calories a day of Twinkie, but you're got to feel like crap. Right? So I'm very conscious of that, so I do not drink soda, for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is if I'm going to waste calories on something, I am not going to drink a soda, I'm going to eat ice cream. Right? I'm all for- Josh: Right. Russell: It, but I would never waste it on something like that because I feel like you're just drinking pure. So I'm not perfect, I'll go off on binges and eat stuff I want, but I would never drink pop, like I just don't. I would rather spend my calories somewhere else. Josh: It's soda Russell, it's soda. Russell: Soda. Yeah. In Utah, we called it Pop. But yeah, I think in the rest of the world it's soda. Anyway, so I don't do those kind of things. Josh: It is soda, Pop's not a thing. Russell: I'm also thinking, I'll go somewhere and there's a dessert, so I'm like, oh. And I'll try something and I'll take the first bite, and I judge, is this worth the calories? And if it's, yes, then I'll go pound the rest of it. If it's not I'll throw it away. Right? Like for example, cookie dough. If my wife brings home a tub of cookie dough or something, I eat it. And its worth the calories, I don't care what it is, that's so good I will eat that and I'll deal with the consequences later. Right? But then I'll eat something like a Pop Tart, and it's like, oh, this is not worth the calories. The soda or whatever, not worth the calories. Have you had those Mochi ice creams before? Josh: Mm-mm (negative). Russell: Oh my gosh, they're Chinese things. Anyway, they're the most amazing, I'll eat 4,000 calories of that because it's worth it. It's worth any extra effort I have to have because it's that good. And so for me, it's just like, I judge everything, is this worth the calories? If not, I just throw it away and I won't eat it. I won't put in my mouth. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. You ruined me with Crumbl Cookie. Russell: Oh yeah, those are worth the calories. Josh: Dude. Freaking, you're the one that I saw it on your Instagram story, you opened it up and you're like, "These are the most amazing things ever." I was like, what are those? And I looked it up and there's one five minutes from my house. And so now we go there all the time and I'm like, they're so good. Right? Russell: They're worth the calories. Josh: And people don't get it until you have one. And you're just like, oh. So we try to limit our consumption of that. But you're the one that got me on that and now we're... I hate you and I love you at the same time for them because they're so good. Russell: Yeah. I'll judge that. So let's say I need to eat something, it's like is it Crumbl Cookies or Subway? I would not eat it subway because it's not worth the calories for this nasty bread and all these things. You know? But I will definitely sacrifice it for a Crumbl Cookie. So anyway, that's my Litmus test. I don't think most biohackers would live by that model but for me, it's like, I eat pretty much the same thing 99% of the time. But when I'm going to mess up, I want to mess up with the best stuff and not stuff like, oh, I ate that thing and now I feel like, that wasn't even good, why did I do that? I want to make sure I'm doubling down and if I'm going to mess up, then I'm going deep on something that's worth it. Josh: Yep. Yep. All right. Well thank you for sharing Russell, I appreciate it. This was, I think it was a good batch of three episodes for us. Knock it out. Russell: That awesome. Hope you guys enjoyed this. If you like conversations like this, that aren't necessarily marketing related, but based on all the other weird stuff going on in my head, and Josh's head, let us know and we'll do more of these. And thanks man for doing this, I appreciate it. And we'll see you guys on the next episode of the Marketing Secrets podcast.

In this second installment of this special interview, Russell and Josh go super deep on ‘the master story' and the attractive character…and what happens when you have tons of followers and NO ONE buys! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. So, today's episode is probably from most of my conversations with Josh, might have been one of my favorites. It was really, really fun. We started talking about expert secrets and storytelling and how they work, and attractive character profiles, which one you should be using, and how they work, and can you change them? And then also he started going into his concept of the master story, which is something I talk about in Perfect Webinar, but he goes really, really deep in it. And anyway, we geeked out. This was a really fun episode. I hope you enjoy it. With that said, let me cue up the theme song. When we get back, you'll have a chance to listen to this exciting conversation with me and Josh talking about story and attractive character, and a bunch of other really cool things. JoshForti: I got to ask this. Are you not on Twitter? Like I see you on Twitter a lot, and I see you posting stuff on Twitter. But is it not you that's engaging on Twitter? Russell: No, I don't know how to tweet. Josh: You don't know how to tweet? Russell, I tweeted you a lot. Or not a lot, but I tweeted you quite a bit. Russell: Oh, hey. Josh: And then sometimes you like my tweets. Dang it. Russell: I do like all your tweets. They're awesome. Josh: Yeah. Oh, man. Russell: I personally, I enjoy Instagram, probably my favorite. And then Facebook's probably number two. But that's the two social platforms I spend my personal time on the most. So, if it's from either of those two platforms, it's usually me. If it's other places... Josh: Do you have it like broken up? Like are you like, "Instagram, I do this type of content and stuff on. And Facebook, I do this type of content on." Or is it kind of like a mixture of both? Or... Russell: Um. Josh: For you personally. I know your team posts stuff, but... Russell: The only place I really post/do stuff typically is Instagram, like stories. That's where I kind of, like me personally, do stuff. And then Facebook and my personal page, probably once, every once in a while, I drop stuff there. And everything else, that's my team. Josh: Yeah, that's rare though, not often. Russell: Yeah. Josh: You're not like me who's like, "What? It's been 48 hours without some form of controversy? What can I say? Oh my God." All right. Well, actually, I kind of want to talk about that though. Not so much controversy, but creating content specifically around storytelling, because I think this is probably one of the biggest... Let me give backstory, a little context around this. I came into the world completely backwards of what most people do, right? So I was the guy that came into the world, and most people have no following and no followers, and they can't get leads to happen. Right? And they don't get anybody to show up to their webinar. And then they're super depressed because nobody showed up and nobody bought. I had the exact opposite problem. I had everybody show up and nobody bought. And let me tell you, that's way more depressing. You know why? Because when everybody shows up and nobody buys, you're like, "Crap. Now I really am screwed because I have no idea what's going on." Right? Russell: It was me, and not the… whatever, yeah. Josh: Right. It's not because nobody's hearing it. It's because I actually suck. And I remember the first time I ever did a webinar, we actually... I don't know if you remember this or not. I actually sent you a Snapchat. This is right when you first got Snapchat. This is way, way back in the day. I've told this story before. And I went and I was like, "Russell, what's up, man? I'm trying to build this webinar. How much would you charge me to build out a webinar for me or whatever?" Right? And you sent me a little video, a Snapchat video back. You're in the Jeep, and you were like, "Man, I don't really do that. I don't really do that anymore." So I like snapped you back, and then you snapped me back, and you're like, "It'd probably be like $250,000 or something like that. But I don't really do that." I'm like, "Man, I really wish I would've hired you for 250 grand." But anyway, so I go and we do this huge webinar, and everyone told us... We were like, "We're going to have all these people sign up." And everyone's like, "No. No, you're not. Nobody gets people to their webinar that easy. You maybe have a hundred registrants." We had 2000 people register, and we had a thousand people... We maxed out the room with a thousand people on live. At the pitch, there was like 982 people in the room. I go through, I do my pitch. No one buys, not a single person. And then we hung up, and like an hour goes by, and one person had bought. And most miserable, depressing... Russell: That's the worst because then you're like, "Crap. I thought there was no sound or something. Maybe they didn't hear me." Josh: Right, right, right. But I sat there and it was a bad webinar. We had like dozens, probably hundreds of emails and comments of like, "Can I have my money back for a free webinar? This totally sucks. Worst experience ever." It was awful, right? And what was interesting is that really scarred me for a while, from doing presentations and from doing anything where I pitched live. And so I basically went and I just did sales from that point on. I did lots of presentations. I did lots of content. But I did not actually go and pitch because really, it was like PTSD almost. Right? It was like, "I don't want to go back there." And what was interesting is I went and I would do sales, and I got good at sales, but sales is hard, man. Sales is just a different game. It's just like pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. Right? And then my brother died, and out of just sheer not knowing what to do, I just started sharing my story because at that point you're like, "What do you do? My whole life is messed up at this point. I'm so confused." And so I just start sharing what I was going through, and I start sharing things of like the emotions and what I'm learning and what I'm going through. And I remember people just started buying, and it was like the weirdest thing, because I wasn't selling anything. Right? But I would go through and I'd be like, "I'm super grateful and thankful to have an audience right now because I'm able to go through and have a business that allows me to go and like be mobile and go to my brother's funeral or whatever." And then people started buying my programs. And I was like, "What in the world?" And then I would share other things, and then people would start buying. And I'm like, "I'm not actually selling these things. I'm just talking about my life." And what was interesting is I went back eventually later that year, and I went back to all these different people, and I was like, "Why did you buy this product?" And they're like, "Well, because you told such and such a story." Oh, that's interesting. So then I went over here and I was like, "Why did you buy that product?" And they're like, "Well, you guys told such and such story." And it was a completely different story. And it was like they were buying because they would hear a story, and they would associate that story with a product that I was selling, and they would go buy it. And so I had all these different products and all these different stories, and I was like, "Okay, well, I got to figure out what's the one story that I want people to figure out?" Right? So I could sell the one product. And so that's what I've really been focused on recently. But that lesson taught me that storytelling was everything, because I had heard that from you a million times. Right? Russell: Yeah. You didn't believe it. Josh: Story, story, story, story. Right? And I'm like, "I'm telling stories, Russell. What more do you want me to do?" But I wasn't. I was telling facts and I was going out there and trying to sound smart. And when I just let go of it all and was like, "This is the story, like the real, the raw, the genuine. I'm not trying to sell you anything. This is legitimately what's going on in my life." I made more money and more sales than I had before. And so I would love for you to talk about... Like I know in Expert Seekers you go through like storytelling and all the different, the core four stories, and the change of false beliefs. But what's the key? And maybe that's it, like going back through that. And that's fine. But like what's the key to telling a good story? Because I think not only do people... And there's a follow-up question to this, which I'm not going to tell you what it is yet. But what are the elements that make a good story? What actually makes a story work? And how do you tell one effectively? Russell: Yeah. First off, it's fascinating because I went through a very similar journey when I got in this world too. I remember going to my very first event. I saw people selling from stage, and seeing the numbers and doing the math, I was just like, "This is crazy. There's no way this actually works." And then I remember getting invited to speak at a seminar, and it was different because webinars are painful, but man, standing on stage and doing a pitch, and then it bombing was even worse. Because it's just like all these people, nobody moved, and it was just like... In fact, I remember I was like, "I'll never, after the first one, I'll never do this again." That was the worst experience ever. And that's when I joined the Dan Kennedy world, and they had this public speaking course. It was like 40 CDs. I remember the pack was like this thick of CDs. And I bought it because I was like, "I want to figure this thing out." I started listening to him. And I don't remember the course at all, other than this feeling of just like it's not teaching. Teaching is not what gets people to buy when you're on stage. It's telling these stories that connect with people. And it shifted my mindset, and so it shifted to the point where I went and tried again. And the next time I tried, I tried to weed these things in, and I got like six sales, a thousand bucks apiece. And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like I got the reward of like this actually worked. And then I was like, "Okay, do it again and do it again." And then you start getting obsessed with it. And then for me, most of my education for the next five years... Because there wasn't a lot of people that had courses on public speaking or things like that. There were a couple, but there wasn't a lot. I just went... And from a timeline, it was before the big 2000 whatever, the big crash in 2008 or whatever. And so there were events happening every single weekend. So I'd go to an event every weekend, and I would sit there and I would just watch the people speak. And I would watch what they were doing and then see how people would buy at the end. And people, the ones that had the big table rushes and stuff, I was like, "Okay, what did they just do? What'd they do to me? How did they do it? What did they say?" And I was like trying to dissect what they were doing. And then I would model that for my presentations. I'd be like, "Oh, I like how they did that part, how they told the story or how they got emotional." Sort of like just studying. McCall Jones calls it charisma hacking. I didn't know that's what it was at the time. But I was just watching how they did stuff and how it made me feel. And it wasn't just like selling from stage. I started watching religion people as well. Like some of the best presenters in the world are preachers and pastors and things like that. And I was watching just people speak and how they got me to feel and move, and how they told stories in a way that was exciting. And then so that's like this study I started going on. Then I met Michael Hague. I started learning about story structure. I was like, "This isn't just made up. There's actual structures and there's things in place. And this guy's way easier," because now I'm not just guessing. There's actually a pathway. Anyway, so that's kind of my history with it too, but it's fascinating. But I think that if I was to break it down into something for people to understand that's not complex but simple... Because you can go to the Expert Secrets book and it can get really complex. But the simplest form is that if somebody's coming to you, it's because they're looking for something different, right? They want change. They want more. There's some result. And I always think about this like on a mountain because Dan Kennedy used to talk about this. He's like, "You need to become the guru on the mountain. And people are going to come to the base of the mountain, and the closer they get to you up the mountain, the more they're going to pay." Right? So, the base of the mountain, they're paying a hundred bucks a month for a newsletter. And then they want to get closer, they pay 500 bucks a month, then a thousand bucks a month. And for whatever, for 50 grand, they can sit at your feet and talk to you." And he used to always talk about that guru on the mountain thing. And back when I was first studying this, the way people sold was different. It was much more like that. It was more of a status play like, "This is how successful and why you should come up here. And if you want to be like me, you got to come to me, pay me more money." And I never really resonated with that, partially because I'm awkward and I always felt awkward like positioning myself. So I never liked that, and so I started learning about story structure. It was cool because I realized that the positioning of you on the mountain, it's essential, right? But it's not like you sell from the top of the mountain, yelling down to the people. It's like people see you on the top of the mountain, and they're down here like, "I want to be up there." You're like, "Cool." And then it's you coming down off the mountain, running down to where they're at, and being like, "Okay, I know exactly where you're at. Let me tell you my story, because I was in your same spot at one time." Right? And that's the power. So, if you look at the way I do my presentations, I usually drop like one slide or one thing like, "Hey, this is the thing you want." Right? Like, "Cool, I've made whatever." Like I'll do my quick posturing just so they know that I've been to the top of the mountain they're trying to get to. But then I don't stay there. But again, if you watch the old-time speakers from the nineties and early 2000s, they would spend the 90-minute presentation talking about them on top of the mountain the whole time. And I just hate it. So I drop real quick, so you know that I know I've been where we're trying to get to, but I got to come back very, very quickly. And the story I'm telling you is the story, my story, of them. Right? I have to put myself in their spot. Like where was I when I went through the same thing? Because all of us, if you got to the top of the mountain, somewhere you had to start hiking. And you went through that journey to be the guru on the top. Right? And so it's like coming back and remembering where are they at or where were you at, telling your story. And if you tell it the way that they connect, they're like, "Oh my gosh, they are me. I was Russell. Russell went through this. He understands." And there's empathy. Then they trust you. Then they want to go on that journey with you. That's like when you came out and you started telling your story, it wasn't you posturing a position of how great you were. But it's like, "Hey, I've done this thing you're trying to figure out. But let me tell you my story and how I'm struggling, how I'm still struggling, the struggles I went through, and the pain and the fear." And all of sudden they're like, "Oh, I feel that too. I feel the pain. I feel the fear. I understand those things. This person understands me. I can trust them to take me on this journey because he's not going to be the person who's just positioning how great they are. It's someone who I have empathy with. They understand me." And that's the key. Because if they feel like you understand them, then they're going to go on that journey with you. And you do that by telling the story, like your version of their story. Because they're living it right now, and you've lived it the past. You've got to tell that in a way where they connect and now they're going to want to go on that journey with you. And that's kind of the key to it all. Josh: That's super, super interesting. Yeah. Because when I think about story structure, because I've like tried to simplify things down in my own head... Because it's always interesting, because I'll watch everything that you do, and so it's funny whenever I do presentations, people are like, "You're a mini Russell." I'm like, "Well, that makes sense actually. Right?" Like I've watched all this stuff, right? So, but for me, man, going through Expert Secrets, I don't know, it was probably the third or fourth or maybe even fifth time through before I finally actually was like, "Oh yeah, you actually do know what you're talking about." Because every step of the way I'd be like, "But my story doesn't fit in. That doesn't work." Or like, "Mine doesn't have that." Or like, "It's not that systematic." Or, "Russell, it's too much of a science. There's more of an art to it." And then I'd read about it and I'd be like, "This is so scientific." And then I'd watch you do it and I'm like, "That's so artistic." And I'm like, "But they're the same." Right? And so I would try to figure out ways to simplify it down to a way I can understand it. And then once I would understand it, I would plug it into yours, and then it would work. Right? And so for me, it was always like, okay, there's four parts. It's, "How did I get here?" Right? That's backstory. Like, "How did I get to right here right now?" That's like that. And then it's, "Where am I going?" Right? So, the goal, the desire. And then it's, "How am I going to get there?" New vehicle, new opportunity, right? And then it's, "What's it going to look like?" The vision, like what's it going to look like in the process of all that, so we can paint this thing and we get people emotionally attached? And so for me, in my brain... And they don't always happen in that sequential order. Like sometimes you start with the desire, and then you go back, but it has to have all four of those parts. And then I would take that and I would go, and then I would apply it to the Expert Secrets, and then it would start working. Right? I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's what Russell's doing here and here and here." And then you actually have this whole framework out about it, right? And I think one of the things for me is I always go... Because we've done book clubs on Expert Secrets. I teach stories in marketing. I teach stories in personal development. Like stories and storytelling is a big part of what I do now, especially over the last six months and moving forward. One of the questions that continues to come up is... Well, there's two parts. Let me start with the first one. "Hey, Russell, that's all great, but I'm not a leader. I'm not the attractive character that's the leader." Right? "I'm not the person that figured it out and am living my customer's journey." And there's actually a lot more of those people than I thought. I thought most people were leaders because that's what I was when I first got started. So my question is, do you tell this story a different way? Or how is the story different, how is it positioned differently, if you are not the leader? Because I know you're not in your story. You're the reluctant hero, right? And so I tell people, I'm like, "Before you start figuring out your story, you got to figure out what attractive character you're going to be." Right? And we go through the four inside of Expert Secrets. It's like there's the leader, there's the adventurer, there's the reporter, and then there's the reluctant hero. And what's interesting is early on in my journey, I was the hero. Right? I was the one, I was like, "Guys..." I was literally this broke kid, freaking living in a $500-a-month apartment with duct tape windows. And now I'm not, right? And Instagram was the thing, and social media, and here we go. Right? But as I evolved, then the podcast came. And without even realizing it, I became the reporter. Right? And so how does, based on your attractive character, how does that change the story or how you tell it? Russell: Yeah. And it's funny because mine's transformed, not only just throughout time, but in different situations as well. Right? Like sometimes I'm the attractive... You know, when I got started, say when I was an interviewer, so I interviewed people. So I was a reporter for a long time. But then I transitioned to like a reluctant hero. But there's other times, like if I'm on Hockey Live, I'm not the reluctant hero, right? At that time I've got to be the hero. Like I'm coming in and I'm setting authority because I've got a whole group of alphas in the room. And if I don't come there as like the head alpha, they will run me over. If you're like in a situation with Tony Adib, like if I'm that situation, I'm transitioning more back to reporter because I'm leveraging Tony's expertise and things like that. And so I'm going back as a reporter. Same thing with Dan Kennedy right now. You look at... It's fascinating. Like we just bought Dan Kennedy's company, right? We just launched the first Dan Kennedy new offer. By the way, if you're listening, go to NoBSLetter.com and go sign up. But yeah, like... Josh: By the way, make sure you go through my link. Russell: Yeah. But look at like how I've... It's /JoshForti, yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: But if you look at like how I'm positioning this offer, it's not me coming as like Russell's the alpha. Right? I'm coming back here as like, "This is my mentor. Boom. And I had this chance to acquire, but I'm going to go through 40 years of his stuff, and I'm bringing it back to you." And I'm pulling these things out, and this is what I learned from Dan and what I learned from Dan here." Right? And it's me coming back in a reporter role with my mentor, and that's how I'm introducing the world to him. So, it shifts, right? It shifts based on the story and the situation. Like what are you using it for? Right? Like I could've come in and be like... Because there's different posturing. Like I could've come in and been the hero and like, "I bought Dan's company. We bringing it back from the dead. Da, da, da." Like put it on me. But that story, first off, didn't feel good. But second off, it's not the story that needs to get people to move. The stories to get people to move is me giving homage to this guy who's changed my life, and now I'm going to be having the chance to bring these things back to you. Like me becoming the reporter back in that phase, in that business and that side, is a more powerful story to use. Right? And so it's all coming down to figuring out what's going to be the best story, right, in this situation and where you're at, and thinking through that. Because right now you're in a reporter role, but other times I still see you, you shift back over where you're running different things. So it's just trying to figure out what's... Again, these are all tools. I was talking to the Two Comma Club X members this week. And part of the group's doing challenges, part are doing webinars, part are doing different things. And they're like, "Which one should I do? Which one's the best?" I'm like, "No, it's not which one's best. These are tools. Like this is a hammer, this is a saw, and different jobs and different tools." And so it's like if I'm coming in here, I want a hammer, but over here I want a saw, and here I want a hammer and a saw, because I'm going to do this thing. Right? And same thing with stories, understanding that. Like your attractive character can shift. Mine's shifted more throughout time, but also situationally it shifts where it's like, okay, this is the role I need to be here, and it's okay to shift back to reporter. I've seen people, in fact... Well, can I drop names? Yeah. Who cares? So like Grant Cardone's a good example. I love Grant. Grant is like the leader, right? And at 10X, after we set all these sales records, Grant was going to shift to the interviewer and he was going to interview me. And it would've been a really fascinating thing for him to pick my brain and ask. And we sat down and we got in the thing, and he sat there for a second, and all of a sudden he was like, he didn't want to. He thought like shifting to the interviewer was a decrease in status. And he literally stopped before he started and said, "Actually I don't want to interview you. I'm going to have somebody else do it." And he got off the little thing, had somebody else come in, and that person interviewed me. And I was like, "Ah, dang it." It would've been so powerful for him. Josh: Come on, Grant. Russell: It would been so powerful for him, for his positioning, for people to connect with him better, if he would've come off like, "I'm Grant Cardone." You know, trade, come down for a second, and done the reporter, and been excited. Because he genuinely was excited. He, backstage, was freaking out. He was like, "I've never seen what you just did. That was amazing." Like it was this cool thing. And it humanized him for a minute. And he could have had that moment where he did it, and he didn't. Whereas me right now with Kennedy, I'm paying all homage to Dan. He's amazing. And it, first off, makes the offer better, makes the story better, but it also makes me more... People connect because now it's like they're the same thing. Like, "Oh my gosh. I have mentors. I can be excited about what they're learning." I don't have to posture all the time where I'm the only person. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Well, it's super interesting that you say that because studying influencers has been something that I've kind of geeked out about. And one of the things you talk about in there, in Expert Secrets or whatever, is the attractive character has flaws. Right? And when the attractive character owns those flaws, it actually makes their supporters love them more. And what's interesting is that I've looked at people like Trump, and we're not trying to get political here in any way, shape or form, but one of the big criticisms of Trump, even from his own people, and I being one of those, is he never admits when he's wrong. He never will step down and even give the idea that somebody else could be right. And because of that, that actually hurts him a lot more in the long run than in the short, than it gains him in the short term. Right? And so it's that same concept. And then I look at someone like a Dave Portnoy, right? And do you follow Dave at all? Dave Portnoy? Okay. So he's the founder of Barstool Sports, and he's the one that did the Barstool Fund and everything like that or whatever. Here's a dude who, I mean, his fan base is not as large as Trump's, but as far as like fans and fans, people love Portnoy. Right? Like, I mean, there's his fans. But he makes fun of himself constantly, right? And he's constantly coming back and being like, "Yeah, I messed up." All of his bets are public because he owns like a gambling or a sports betting company. So you go to his Twitter and it's nothing but all of his wins and then all of his losses. Right? And so you can see both, and people just love it. And anytime people are trying to bash up on him, all of his supporters come and they're like, "Yeah, we know he's an idiot. Right? But he's an amazing idiot. Yeah." Right? And so it's like when you show that other side, people connect to you even better. And it's such a fascinating concept because it's opposite of what our brains think. You know what I mean? Russell: A hundred percent. It's counterintuitive. Like we want to always posture position, thinking that's the... It's just like the guru on the mountain we talked about, right? Like in the eighties, nineties, every expert wanted to be the person, the infallible expert up here at the top. But man, that's not what gets people to connect. It's the coming down and like, "Dude, I struggle too. I remember the pain. I remember the pressure, the fear, the scare, like all those things." And that's what connects people. People crave connection now. Maybe there was a time in history where people just wanted the other thing. But nowadays it's not that way. People connect with vulnerability. But it's hard, it's scary, because it's like... In fact, Natalie Hodson, I think she quoted Brene Brown, but she's the one that told me this. She's like, "When you're vulnerable, you feel small, but people looking at it, it feels makes you feel big to them." So it's a weird thing where you're like, "I feel horrible," but it makes them look at you and like, "Oh my gosh, this person's willing to say things I'm thinking in my head and I don't dare to talk about because of my own fear and anxiety and status, and all those kind of things." And it gives them that thing, and that's what gets people to connect with you. It's really fascinating. Josh: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. Last piece on this, which will take up the rest of the time for sure, is the number one question that I get hands down when it comes to stories... I'm sure you've heard this a million times, but in the odd case that you haven't, Russell, your people want to know this. Okay? The number one question is: How do I know which story to tell? Russell: Ooh, that's good. Josh: Right? It's the hardest thing because people are like... And it's always hilarious because I'll sit down and I'll be like, "Well, what story are you trying to tell?" And they're like, "I don't know." And I'm like, "Well, here's your life story." And I will tell them because I'm like their coach and I've been around them for six weeks or whatever it is. And I'll go, "Here's your story. Boom, boom, boom." And I'll summarize their entire life in 30 seconds. And they're like, "How did you do that?" And I'm like, "Because it..." Well, anyway, I want to know the answer to their question. How do you know what story to tell? Because everybody has these. We're so close, right? And for me, I'm about to turn 28, right? My 28th birthday, we'll do a big birthday bash. Russ is coming on. It's going to be great. We're going to want to do podcasts. It's going to be so cool. Right? But it's like I've got 28 years worth of experiences. How do I know what to tell? Russell: Yeah. It's fascinating. When I wrote the first version of the Expert Secrets, I didn't know that was the question people had. I didn't even know how to answer. It never crossed my mind. And anyway, I wrote the second version of the Expert Secrets and I'd seen it, so I'd updated it. But no one ever commented. And it wasn't until... Actually, you came to it. You came to the most recent FHAT event I did, right? The expert one? Yes, okay. Josh: Yeah, not the e-com one, but yeah. Russell: Yeah. So the first time I shared that publicly was at that event, and I remember it was fascinating because Steven Larson is probably one of the people that have studied me the most. And he raised his hand like, "Oh my gosh." He's like, "I finally understand what story I'm supposed to tell." And that was coming from Steven who like... And I was like, "Interesting." So, this is the problem I think that... And I always tell people, "Tell your backstory. Tell the origin story." So they're like, "Okay. I was born in Provo, Utah, March 8th, 1980. It was a cold night." And they, they go back to there, right? Because they think that's the story, because I tell them, "Tell your origin story." And it wasn't until at that event... Again, I think, I'm pretty sure in the second version, the hardbound version of DotCom Secrets, it's in there. But it was that event where I really said, "The story you're telling is not like your origin story. It's your origin story of how you came upon or created or figured out your framework. It's your interaction with the framework you're sharing." That's the key, right? So, when I'm talking about the perfect webinar, for example, the origin story I'm telling is not my origin story. It's my origin story discovering this framework. So, for example, I went to Armand Morin's event and I saw people speaking on stage. I did the math, and then I spoke on stage, and I looked like an idiot. And I went back home, and then I bought Dan Kennedy's course. I realized it was wrong, and then I went through the thing. And so it's that story, it's how I learned or I earned this framework. Like how did I come up with... What was the things I went through to discover this gem that I'm bringing now from the top of the mountain down to them, saying like, "This is the thing I found out, and this is the story about how I found it. Let me share it with you." And be like, "Ooh, I want that gem. I want that gold nugget." And then they come with you on the journey to go and get that with you. So, that's the most simple way I've figured out how to explain it. I'm curious on your side, because you've explained versions of this as well, would you add to that or change it? Or what are kind of your thoughts on it? Josh: Well, so let me start by telling you the biggest struggle that I had. Like I'm talking for over a year of reading Expert Secrets, I struggled with one specific thing that I could not figure out, and it was the question that I wanted to ask you for the longest time. And then like right before we got an interview, I figured it out. I was like, "Oh my gosh." But it was I didn't understand the difference between the backstory and secret number one. And what I meant mean by that is like, to me, I'm like, "First you discover funnels, and then you teach them the framework for funnels. It's the same thing." But then you would say they're different. And I'm like, "How?" Right? Like I don't understand the difference between those two things. Now, at first I didn't understand it at all. And then kind of my first epiphany or my first breakthrough was, "Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. First the backstory introduces the thing. And then secret number one has the framework for the thing." Right? And so then that was kind of my first realization of like, "Okay, these are separate. It's one, it's the thing. And then the framework for the thing." But then I would look at your webinar and I would go, "Russell, Russell, what's your framework? Like what's the framework to build a funnel?" I'm like, "It's hook, story, offer." That's what I thought, right? I'm like, "In order to build a good funnel, it's hook, story, offer." And then I was like, "Well, maybe that's not the framework. Maybe it's add all the upsells and break the beliefs, and then go through." And I was like... But no matter what it was, it was never... Like the framework for building a successful funnel was never to go and model somebody else's funnel, and then build all the up. I'm like, that's a thing, but that's not the parts of a funnel. Right? And so I got confused because I thought the framework that I was supposed to teach in secret number one was the parts of the thing, not the framework for how to build the thing. Right? And so I think one of the biggest 'aha' moments for me is like each part of the webinar that you're doing is its own separate section, and they build off of one another, but they're also each standalone. Right? And so I thought that the backstory or that the story that I told in the backstory was the story through the entire webinar, and it's not. Right? And so whenever I would hear you say, "Well, tell the backstory about how you learned it and how you earned it," I thought it was like that was the story for the webinar, and then I had to go through and tell each thing. And then I realized that there's a separate story for each thing. Right? There was a separate story for the backstory. And by the time you're done with the backstory... And I think it was you that said it. I go back and forth. I really like how Dan Henry explained some of the things specifically when selling courses, because that was the other problem, was you were selling a software and I was like, "Well, what happens if I'm not selling a software? Oh, crap. Where does it fit in?" Right? But I think it was you that said by the time you're done with the backstory, there's a percentage of your people that are ready to buy. And I'm like, "Whoa. That's the story that I've got to figure out." And so for me, I was like, "What is the story that I have to tell, that if I were not allowed to tell secret one, secret two or secret three, people just took me at my word that what I said was the solution to their problem? What's that story that I have to tell that people would go and buy?" And I became obsessed with that, and that's what I call a master story. Because I'm like, to me... And that's why I was telling you where I was geeking out about it. I'm like, to me, once I figure out that, and I've gone through and taught all these students how to teach stories, if I focus all of my time on the three secrets, we never get anywhere. Like literally. It's ridiculous. We'll spend so much time, and then they'll do the presentation and it won't work. But if I spend 80% of my time on just the backstory and we get that right, they basically figure out the other three secrets like that. And I spend 20% of my time in the other three secrets. Russell: That's fascinating. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I spend both of my time doing the three secrets, because that's where people get stuck on my side. But man, the way you frame that's really cool, because I always think about... There's different markets I go after, right? So if I'm going after like a beginner market, my first thing is telling the potato gun story, because it's like, "I had a potato gun, we had an upsell, da, da, da." And for beginner, like... Josh: Which 100%, by the way, 100% of what I've done... The last like six, three months I've been doing sales calls like crazy. Whenever I mention the master story, I go, "Hey guys, do you know Russell?" They're like, "What's the master story?" I'm like, "Do you know who Russell Brunson is?" They're like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Do you know the potato gun story?" 100% of the people say yes, every single time. There's not been a single person... I'm like, "That's his master story when it comes to funnels." Anyway. Russell: That's always interests me because I have a different master story if I'm going over like a more advanced audience, which is the master story of no VCs. Right? So it's like, "We're competing against InfusionSoft and all these things. They had a hundred million dollars in funding. We didn't have any money. We were broke. And so we put this thing together. Da, da, da." And they're like, "Now we get customers for free, and then they buy software." And that master story is what sells it to more of like the corporate, like the business owners who think through the world of like investing. So, that's story that I lead... If I talk about potato guns with them, they're lost, right? So again, it's like, people are like, "But I only have a story." It's like, "No, you have different stories. What are the stories that fit the audience?" Dan Kennedy 101, message to market match. Like how do you connect these things? Right? It's like here's the market I'm talking to. In fact, I think you know this. We bought Doodly.com and we bought like Brad Callen's whole company. And these people, I didn't realize at the time, I thought they were internet marketers using software to make sales videos. But no, they were actually course creators who don't know anything about marketing. And so I went and did my webinar pitch to these people and it bombed, and it was like the worst thing ever. And I was like, "What?" And it was like, "Oh my gosh. I didn't understand the market." And so I had to change. So we rewrote it, changed the story, changed the thing to match the market we're going after. And now it's converted really well. But it was like, it's just understanding that in every situation, like figuring out, "Okay, who am I actually speaking to? So there's the market. And what's the message, the story I think I have that's going to match that to then bring them into our world?" Because I'm selling the same product, no matter what, but there's different stories that's going to hit different markets as you go through. You'll probably hear me quote a lot more Dan Kennedy in your future, as I'm going through all his courses again right now, and having the time of my life with it. So... Josh: Yeah. Well, it's just interesting, just going back to that one concept of like the first core story, the master story, the backstory of it all. I think one of the big problems that I know I ran into this is, once again, I thought the whole webinar was designed to teach and educate. Like that's when I would introduce and teach it, the whole entire process. But it's not. Like secret one, secret two, secret three are designed to educate on the thing that you introduce in the backstory. Right? And for me, with the people I work with on a pretty consistent basis, it's like they don't understand that either. And so when I go in and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Forget about teaching them about it. You have to teach them what it is, why it's so important." And I always go back to that story when you were like no one was buying it and then you're like, "Do you understand what I went through then?" I'm like, "That! That's what you're trying to create." It's like forget the framework for it. Forget how it works. Forget why it worked for them. Forget the external objections for a second or whatever. Like what do you have to do that, if you didn't get to do anything like that, how would you convince somebody that this is the most greatest, amazing thing, and then be like, "And just take my word for it that it's going to work for you." Like, what's that story that you would tell? And for me, once I identified that was what it was, and I started working on my students with that, all the rest of the webinars and find new challenges and everything became easy. Whether it was Catherine Jones when we worked with her, whether it was Brad Gibbon, casual tactics, like all of them, it was like, once we figured out that, then all the rest of the things fell into place. Russell: Yeah. It's fascinating because the reason why I bombed when I first started versus why I started studying dance stuff, is that realization of just like, "They haven't bought into the fact that they want to funnel yet or that they want weight loss or whatever the thing is." Like your only goal during the webinar or the challenge or whatever is to convince them that this is the vehicle that's going to be the most likely successful to get up on that mountain and get the result that they've been looking for. Because they've been looking for the result for a long time, right? I think Katlyn said the average woman goes on eight diets a year. Right? So it's like, now that they're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to lose weight." It's not like this, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to make money. Oh my gosh, I'm going to..." Like, they already want the result. They tried three or four other things. You're trying to convince them that your presentation or your challenge or whatever is to convince them that of all the different potential opportunities, that your new opportunity is the one that's most likely to get them success. And if they buy into that, then you can take them on the journey. But you start teaching around the gate. You're trying to take them on this journey, and they're like, "Wait, but there's like 10 other options. I don't think you're the right... I don't even know if you're the right option. I have no idea." So your job and your role is 100% only there to convince them that this is the most likely thing that's going to give them the success they're looking for. And yeah, then you won. Then you can bring them into world. Now you can serve them. Now you can change their life. But until you've sold them on the fact that your vehicle is the one that is most likely to give success, you can't serve them. You can't change their life. You can't do anything. And so that's what we got to become really good at is that transition. So, anyway, so fun. Josh: All right. Well, that'll wrap up the story episode there. I think that was really, really good. I think we got a lot accomplished. Russell: We should go, another time, or next time you're a voice, we should do like a half-day live with everybody on like the master story. That'd be fascinating to go deeper just on that, without the context of having to have all the rest of the webinar things. I'd love to geek out with you deeper on that. So, there's the thought. If you guys want more of that, you got to let me and Josh know, and maybe next time we're around some UFC fight or some fake YouTube boxing fight, we'll plan something fun like that. Because that'd be really cool to go deep on that. Josh: That fake YouTube boxer fight, that's 5 and 0, right? Oh, man. All right. Russell: All right. Thanks, you guys, for listening. If you enjoyed this, please let us know. Tag us on social. Tweet us out. Instagram us. YouTube... I don't know. All the different places. Josh: Don't tweet us. Russell won't tweet at you. He'll just fake like your tweets. Instagram? Instagram. Russell: Tweet at Josh, and then I'll share it. Josh: Yeah. Russell: My team will share it. Anyhow, let us know. We're enjoying doing these, and hopefully you guys love them as well. And the last way, if you want to help grow this podcast, please just tell other people about it. And yeah, that's all I got. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Josh.

See if your question got answered live! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everyone. This is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. I'm back with Josh today. And do I tell them what today's episode is, this is a really fun one? Josh Forti: Yeah. Today guys, we're doing rapid fire. We went to the community. We asked a bunch of different questions and by the way, we have like so many more to go over. So like, hey, just keep coming in, which is awesome. But it's a rapid fire Q and A with Russell to kind of bring out a side of Russell that maybe, maybe we don't get to see as much by asking just a bunch of rapid fire questions. Russell: There's some cool questions there. I think you guys going to enjoy. I think there's something for everybody. So listen, take notes. And next time we ask you for some questions, make sure you submit them maybe you'll get answered live. Josh: And called out. We called out some people. Russell: It's true. Maybe you got called out. You should pay attention. Anyway, thanks Josh. This was a fun episode, with that said, let's queue up the theme song and we'll get right back with some Q and As. Josh: All right. So this one I want to do a little bit different, kind of phase three here as we go through this is I went and ask community bunch of different questions and there's so many different ones. I've got screenshots on screenshots on screenshots of, on Facebook, on Instagram and kind of things like that. And so I thought it would be cool to go through and do a rapid fire style where we hit you with a bunch of different questions. And there's a lot of similarities, like underlying actual questions at what it is. But a lot of it is people they want to understand your thought process. They want to understand how you run certain things or how you do certain things or whatever. And so what I thought would be cool is I have enough questions to where we could literally do one a minute for the next couple hours. So take as much time as you want or need to go through this. But I think if we just went through and did like a rapid fire of like, all right, start here and then go through and do this, I think that'd be super beneficial. And I think it'd be a unique creative thing that we could try and see how people like it, sound good? Russell: That'd be fun. Let's do it. Josh: All right. So the first question is, and I think this kind of... It's interesting, I think this ties into both of our previous topics that we covered and talked about, whether it be podcasting and finding your voice there or funnels and figuring that all out is like... The question got asked probably three or four different times, some variation of like, what do you do when you don't know what you want to do yet, like when you haven't found that voice? And you're like, because I think... For me, it's interesting. I actually found my voice before I found my product, right? And I think a lot of people figure out what they are going to sell before they find their voice. And so for me it was a little bit easier because I had all these followers before I was ever selling anything and I was super broke and then I found dotcom secrets and it was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." I literally went from making like $25,000 a year to like $250,000 a year and like one year. It was amazing because I just added it too. But a lot of people, they really struggle with like, "Okay, cool, I get all these things conceptually. I know I need a funnel and I know I need a value ad. I know I need a community and a following and raving fans. And I get all the things, but I don't know mine yet. I don't know the thing. And so when you're doing that, like what's the thing that you do or what advice would you give people to fix that problem of, or what things should they be focused on when they haven't found their voice yet? Russell: I'd say there's two directions on this, and both of them are correct. It's just depends on who you are. Number one, if you are a visionary, if you do the DISC profile, and you're a high I, you want to be the person that's there; the biggest key is not to wait. If I would've waited four click funnels and funnels, I never would've got here. I just started creating stuff that was bad like potato guns, zip brander, or forum fortunes. All these things that didn't work or I made very little money. No one's ever heard of, but I did 150 funnels before I was ever like, "I'm the funnel guy. I'm going to fun... I go on teach..." I started getting into funnels and then we built funnel software, but it was man 14 years and 150 funnels before I figure that out. But if I wouldn't have been in motion, I never would've found that. So if you are a creator and you know that's your calling, just start moving forward and find out what you're passionate about. If I was starting today, I would be into bio hacking, I'd be into nutrition. I'd be into those are the things I'm really geeking out about now in my life. So I'd be running that direction. I don't know what the opportunity's going to be, but I'm going to do something or I'm going to nothing… And then eventually I feel like God, as we start moving in a direction, like conscious I'm moving this direction, trying to figure this out; He will give us little ideas. He'll give us impressions and ideas. And He's trying to see like, "If I give Russell's idea, is he going to be good steward to this idea or not? And if I take it and I implement it, He's like, oh, he's a good steward of little thing, let me give him some more. Let me give him some more." And then 14 years later, He is like, "Okay, now I know he's worthy of this. Let me give him the big idea." But He's checking it. And if you get the idea, you're like, "Oh, I'm scared. I get fearful, whatever." And you don't do it, He's not going to give you the next one. He's like, "Oh, he's not a good steward of ideas." And He gives idea to somebody else. It's why, how many times you are like, "I had an idea for that, but so, and so did this." Because you weren't a good steward of the idea when it showed up. So that's the one thing it's like moving forward. The second thing is that some of you guys, you're not the visionary person and that's okay. There's 450 people who work at ClickFunnels who aren't the visionary person. And if it wasn't for all of them, I'd be screwed. There are people that are my number twos that are my psychics that are helping me support it and they can buy into my vision. In fact, I remember Leon who designs all my slides for me. He's one of the most amazing people in the world. And he was out here in Boise one day and he's a quiet guy, just more reserved and he's got to leave for the airport. And he pulled me aside, he said, "I want to talk to you real quick." And I was like, "Yeah, what's going on?" And he said, he's like, "I've decided that my mission in life is to help you to get your word out to the world." I got chills and I was like, "Oh my gosh. Thank you." It was such a cool thing. And I was like... And I got it. He's got this skillset. He's not going to be on stage doing the things and doing podcasts and stuff, man, without him, I couldn't do what I'm doing. So being a supporting role is huge. So find a vision you do believe in. If you're like... I think Dave Asprey in the bio... and the bulletproof movement is the thing, go get a job from them, go work for them, go work for free, whatever. It's like, go figure out how you can be close to that person and help bolster. It's like, I'm hoping that everyone believes in something. Figure out something you believe in, you're passionate about and go be a supporter of that. Your vision is not to be something you created. It's just something you're supporting and you're helping to move forward. And so that'd be my two advice, depending on which side you fall on. If you're not sure, just start running. Josh: Love it. Russell: See what happens. Josh: Love it. That's awesome. And I think that's really, really cool. My current assistant, I've cycled through a couple of assistants now and I finally have one and she's amazing. And she's just like, "I came into your company thinking that this is what you needed." And I was like, "Yeah, because that's what I told you I needed. But I had no idea what I needed." And she's like, "What you actually needed is this." And I'm like- Russell: "I need you to tell me what I need." Josh: ... right. I was like, "Are you going to leave me now?" She's like, "No, I believe in you. And I believe in your vision. I know what you're trying to accomplish. You didn't realize this is what you needed but I believe in you." And I'm like, "Huh, that is a relief." If you can find that person, that's lucky. Next thing kind of goes along with this another rapid fire one is, as you're going through and you are figuring out all these different things and testing through your things, how do you make it to where you're not confusing your audience and to where they don't feel you're just a mess, that's everything is everywhere? You're trying all these different things. You're throwing things at the wall. Is that just something that people are just going to leave and just be upset just because, or is that like, is there ways to minimize that and communicate to your community that you don't know what you're doing, but that this is the vision. This is what we're going. I'm just trying a bunch of different things. Is there a way to do that well? Russell: Yeah. I think a couple things, number one is understanding that until you really dial that in, it's going to be hard to get a huge following anyway. Like the other day I was searching my name with someone else's name that I did a deal with 20 years ago and it pulled up the Google results and there was like, "Oh, I was so embarrassed." Anyway, it was bad. But guess what? Those people are all gone now. They left. They're are not even aware what happened. They don't know who I am. Most people are like, "Russell I've been following you since the beginning. Ever since you guys launched Funnel Hacking Live." I was like, "Oh, I was in business 15 years before the first Funnel Hacking Live." "I followed you all the way back from Micro Continuity." I was like, "That was a long time ago, I was in business nine years before Micro Continuity." Most people... Just understanding the people are going to be... When you figure out the thing, it's going to be a whole new group of people. And so it's not stressing too much about that, but at the same time, it's like, it's helping people understand like, I'm experimenting. I call it marketing experiments or like I used to call mine dotcom secrets labs before I wrote the book and anything it's like, I'm practicing these principles. So I would like study SEO and talk about like, "Oh." And I'd sell SEO courses for other people because I'm learning from this person to understand SEO. I'm over here and I'm in a laboratory testing these things out. This is what I'm actually doing. And there's a lot of value in that because you're becoming in proxy the person and sometimes you can cut through stuff that's working and not working, you can get direct access to people that they can. So just helping them understand like, my end goal is I want to be... Again, if I was going to bio hacking world right now, my end goal is I want to be healthier. So for example, this is my live mushroom GTS root beer. It's literally my favorite thing. I get twice a day. It's from Whole Foods. It's got Reishi, Chaga, and Turkey Tail. The actual fruiting bodies of the mushrooms in here blended into this root beer. It tastes like root beer my grandma used to make, I love it. I'm obsessed with it. So I could be like, "This thing's amazing. I'm excited about it. And this is why, and this is why I did the study and this is why I'm doing it." I could probably sell a crap ton of these right now. And then I could find out something else like Anthony DiClementi, he's got this thing. And I'm like, "I can be excited. I'm testing it. I bought his newsletter. I bought his membership site." And so it's just like you as the, I'm like a reporter, who's testing these things out in the beginning until you figure out what your thing is and you can really dial it. Maybe I become the mushroom dude who sells mushroom root beer. I don't know, but anyway. Josh: Please stick with funnels. We need you in that lane more. Is it good? All right. Cool. Next question we got here is, do you ever struggle with scarcity and being in scarcity mode even after you've made... Had all the success and as much money as you you've made, do you still struggle with being in scarcity mode or have you evolved past that? Russell: I don't struggle with scarcity. I have a lot of my own issues for sure. And it's funny because every time someone launches the next click funnels killer, it annoys me. But then I'm like, "You know what? First off they're not going to... I'm willing to outwork all of them and so I'm not worried that way." Number two, competition drives me, which is really, really good. And number three, actually, Annie Grace messaged me this a little while ago. She was talking about her business and all these people who were competing and she felt they were leading her people astray. And I was like, "I get that." And I said, "The thing that's most comforting to me is actually a Bible scripture where Jesus Christ said, my sheep will hear my voice and they'll follow me." That's not direct translation, but basically that's just like, my sheep will hear my voice. And I believe that's something that was true for him. But I think it's true for all of us. It's a universal principle. And so what I understand is like, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to be Russell. The best Russell I can be. And a lot of people are not going to follow me. They're going to understand that person better or whatever. Like some other product better, but my sheep are going to hear my voice and they're going to follow me. I'm going to attract the right people and they're going to come to Funnel Hacking Live, and they're going to use my platform. They're going to be exciting. And those are the people I've been called to serve. I am not called to serve the people who are going to go and go somewhere else. Or they don't resonate my message or with me or whatever. And I got to be okay with that because my sheep will hear my voice. And that's my belief that helps me to not be scared of scarcity, because I don't want those people anyway. I want my sheep to follow me and I'm going to help them. I'm going to serve them. Because that's what I've been called to serve. Josh: That's awesome. That's super cool. All right, next one here is actually from Parker Woodward, shout out Parker. Russell: Yeah, Parker. Josh: He says, "How do you know what positions to put members of your team in so they personally thrive?" Russell: Man, I cannot tell you, just you know Parker, this is a constant thing. So if you read the book Good To Great, one thing he talks about is like finding the right people and then putting them on the right seats on the bus. And those are two different activities. And sometimes you nail it. You're like, "Got the right person. They're on the right seat on the bus. And it's awesome." So many times in my company, I find someone who's amazing and we put them in a thing and it's like, "Oh, they don't fit there." And you move around four or five times like, "This person sucks at their job. They're horrible." And it's not actually true. It's horrible. The problem is you have the right person in the wrong seat on the bus. You get them the right seat and then they thrive. And so it's understanding that and really defining it of like, "What are the seats initially?" Because I think that's... You had this with your system. I don't really know what the seat is. I just know I need help. And I'm drowning, what that is, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You or someone around you understands like, this is where I'm hurting, this is what I'm struggling and they can define the seat, then it's easy to find the right person, or you find somebody like knows the right person. And then having them like working with them, being okay like, "We may have to try a couple seats so we figure out, I know you're the right cultural fit. I know you're the right person, the right work ethic." But I don't know what the skillset is yet. Maybe they don't know yet either. And as soon as you're able to figure out what their unique ability is, then you put in the right spot and then they can thrive. And so it's a two step process. Josh: Interesting. All right. This one's from Braden. He says, "What are the biggest beliefs fundamentally that you had to shift early on in your life or career that you believe are required to get to $100 million and beyond?" Russell: It's funny you think it's like belief that some marketing principles. So I found out every tier, so me to get to a million dollars, I was trying to get a million dollars in the calendar year. It took me three years in row. I missed it by like 20 grand, three years in a row, I couldn't do it. And it was totally like a mental block. I didn't believe that I could do it for some reason. And after I did the first time it was like, "Oh." Then it was easy. And then 10 million was my next mental block. I missed it first year, second year we got, and then... So it's there's these mental blocks where I don't know if it's we don't believe in ourselves. We don't believe in, that we're worth. I don't know if it's, we don't believe worthy of it or we have the abilities of it, whatever. But the first thing is you got to believe in yourself. And that just comes with a lot of you doing things. Again, it comes back... We talked about earlier, like God gives you an idea. You're going to be a good steward of this idea. And the more often you take an idea and you run with it. Even if you fail, the more times you do that, the more you start trusting yourself. And that's a big part of it. Right now I can walk into a room where there's like, things are on fire and there's pure chaos, I have no idea what I'm going to go into it. I walk in knowing that the right idea's going to show up and I need it because I've done it so many times over and over and over and over and over again. I just know that it's going to happen. And I have belief in myself. That's the first thing. I honestly believe that the second thing, this comes back to the spiritual side of things, is that there's a purpose behind it. I struggled growing ClickFunnels because I thought that it was for Russell and Todd and our friends to make money. I thought that's what the business was, for probably the first three or four years. And it wasn't until I hired this coach who helped me see the connection between things. And she's just... Because I was always like, there's business and there's spiritual things. And God doesn't care right with my business because whatever. And she helped me bridge the gap. Like, "Do you see what's actually happening because this business..." She see people's lives are changed. All these kind of things. And she was the first person who said, "This is literally a calling that God gave you to do this." And as soon as I heard that and I felt it and I believed it, it changed everything for me. I was like, "This isn't just something Russell does as a hobby on the side to keep me busy till I die, this is what I was made for." I was made to do this, to inspire entrepreneurs, to change the world because each entrepreneur can do that. And when I heard that and I believed it, then it changed everything. It gave me permission like, "Okay, well then it's all my donkey Kong. I'm going to publish. I'm going to create, I'm going to write books. I'm going to do software. I'm going to do things." Because it wasn't just like money for money's sake. It was because this is the mission. This is the calling. I need to do it. And so it changed everything for me. So I think for you guys, that'd be the next thing is like, you got to be connected. Is this actually what God wants me doing? And if you believe that, you believe it's not just some side hobby, man it gives you the feel you need to grow row because now it's bigger than just you making money. Making money is so uninspiring. Changing the world because you were called to, at least, for me changed everything. Josh: That's super, super interesting. And so obviously, I've worked with Katie Richardson and tremendous mindset shifting things in there. And one of the things that I've learned just about mindset, what you said there is your brain, by default just runs. And so it will run with whatever program... Like 90% of your life is basically autopilot. You don't even realize that you're making the decision that you're making. So it's like, whatever program is there, that's how your life operates. And how you change that is not by changing this or all these different things, it's by literally reprogramming is changing belief. And so if you could actually just shift the belief, that's actually shifting the program. And so I think, for me, when I first got started in entrepreneurship, it was how do I hustle my way to success? It was freaking. I was at Gary Vaynerchuk working 18 hours a day. Let's go. And so I was like, "That's what I'm going to do." And it was like, Katie came in and was like, "Cool. That's the belief that you have and it's only going to get you so far." And then once you can replace that belief, that it's like, "Oh, you don't have to do that anymore, this is the way to do it." It was a real identity crisis. It was like, "But wait, no, I'm a hustler. I'm up to 4:00 in the morning, every single morning. You can't take that away from me." But then once the belief shifted, then it was like, "Oh, everything else in life shifted." It was like, "Okay, cool. Now I operate this way." And so that's super, super interesting that you say that because I feel like- Russell: If you look at like what I believe my only role is inside of ClickFunnels literally is for me to stand on stage, to write books, do podcasts, everything so I can get our customers to believe this will work for them. That's it. I know it works for them. But if I get them the tool and they don't believe this is going to work for them, it will not work for them. I get them to believe this works. I'm the head belief, cheerleader. That's all I'm actually doing is trying to take my... Whoever has the most certainty, any circumstance, any situation always wins. So when I come into something, I've got to come with more certainty than them and I've got to prove them I believe it can work and it can work for them. And if I can get them to believe it, then it'll happen. But that's the hardest thing is just the mental thing inside people's head. As soon as they believe it, you see it, because it's like, "Oh, they're struggling, struggling." And all of a sudden something happens, and I believe it'll work for them and holy cow, next thing they know they're Two Comma Club. It's weird. Because it makes sense. You're like, "No, it's just a process." Like, "No, it's a process, but your belief is your fuel and how you attack this thing one way or the other, 100% depends on if you believe is going to work." If I believe that if I write a book, a million people are going to buy it, I can go write a book. If I'm like, "I don't think anyone's going to buy it. What if they don't like it? What if..." I'll spend 25 years writing this book, it's never going to get done. The belief is everything. Josh: ... yeah. Garrett White talks about that with Warrior Way. He's like, "We tell people this isn't the only way, this is A way." And I was talking with my students the other day, I was like, "Hey guys, how many different ways are there to grow your business?" And they're like, "I don't know, thousands of them." I'm like, "Sweet, what's the way you grow their business?" And they're like, "Funnels." Like without even thinking about it. And it was like, "See what Russell did there." He convinced me… Russell: And that took me seven years of preaching consistently to get the market and get people to believe that. But it wasn't that… yeah. It's interesting. Josh: All right. The next question here, and this comes up... I mean this probably came up probably more than anything outside of funnels was how do you manage the relationship with your family and the balance between work and family? Because this is something I think a lot of people struggle with. I didn't even realize that this was a thing until I got married and then I got married and I was like, "Oh, I'm experiencing a little bit of this." And I'm like, I can't imagine like then kids and then being around. So how do you balance your work and your family and overwhelm and burn out and like... I mean there's limited amounts and it seems you can do everything Russell, like cause you're everything over there. So how do you balance that with your family and the work life balance of that? Russell: That's a great question. I get asked that a lot, which is interesting. I think a lot of people... Well I think the big problem is most people who are doing what I do, they have... The area of life they're the entrepreneur, they're killing it, and then the rest of their life's a wreck. Or they just don't talk about the rest of life. No one knows. And so anyway, a couple things is number one, Charfen had us do like a time study before. You ever heard of that before? Josh: Yeah. They were the worst. I hate them so much. Russell: So annoying. Yeah I did it for like three minutes, I was like, "I want to die." But you basically sit down and you start every 15 minutes, you're like, write down what you're doing during the day and really quick you realize, "Oh I'm only actually working two hours a day." And I think the average employee, I think is in two hours and eight hour days is actual productive work, the rest is… Josh: Yeah, something like that. It's super low. Russell: So the first thing is just by default, this is comes from me being a wrestler, right? As a wrestler, we have two hour practice. We got the limited time and I wanted to be the best. So I had to cram as much actual stuff in those small windows as humanly possible. And you know when you're an entrepreneur, you're going on a trip and it's like, "My plane leaves at 2:00, but I got an hour and a half to work." In the hour and a half, you'll get more done than an entire day typically. And so I trick my mind that all the time. So if you look at like a typical eight hour day, like I'm coming in from usually from 9:30, till 5:00, it's like my window that I'm here at the office. When I'm here, I'm super present. But what I do in that window of time is what most people do in a week. Because I don't... People always ask me, "Hey Russell, can I take you to lunch?" I'm like, "You have the luxury of lunch. I've not eaten lunch in, I don't know, decade and a half, I'm working. I quit Uber eats. I keep working. It shows up, I'm eating it. And I keep going." I don't waste time for that crap. I'm in the zone and I'm working and I'm not doodling and texting in a million different things. When I'm doing something, I'm doing the thing. I was up this morning from 5:30, till 7:00, I was writing copy for the new offer. And like, that's what I did by myself. Cranked it out. Seven o'clock, boom, I hear Nora talking, hear the kids getting up. And then I break my presence at the thing and I leave and from 7:00 to like 8:30 ish, I'm a dad. And so I take high school kids in school. I come back and I pick up Nora and I play with her a little bit. And then I get her fed and then Collette's getting her dressed and stuff and I go wake up Aiden and then me and Aiden are hanging out. We're talking about the day. And then Collette takes Ellie to school. Aiden's there. I get in the shower. I get dressed. And by nine o'clock I'm ready to go. And I jump in my car. I come here and then boom, I'm in Russell, like I'm entrepreneur mode and from 9:30 ish till 5;00 I'm here. I'm cranking. My days blocked out. I know everything I got to do during the day. I got a to-do list. I got schedule. Everything's blocked out. I knew from 9:00 to 10:30, me and you were here and I'm present. I'm not looking at 1000... We're here doing the thing, it's going to be done. And then at 10:30, I know exactly what I'm doing. As soon as we're done, I'm not sitting around for 30 minutes, like what should I do next. I know what's going to be happening and I'm going, I'm doing the thing. And so my days are like that. So boom, boom, boom, by the time I get to the end of the day, it's like, "Oh, I got a lot of done today. This is amazing." And then I go home. And when I walk through the door from my car in the garage to the door, I send... Before I walk to the door I stop. And I'm like, "Okay, I got to literally stop for a second." I'm like, I'm getting dad mode. I'm getting husband mode. And I get done and I walk through the door and I'm now a dad and husband. I'm not an entrepreneur. And I go, literally go to every one of my kids in the house. My love language is physical touch. I go give each a hug. I go give my wife a hug. And then I'm there. And from that time I'm dad till 9:00 and then from 9:00 to 11:00 I'm husband and 11 o'clock I'm in bed waiting for the next day. And so it's just, I'm really good at chunking time. And I'm not perfect. Some days I'll get depressed or I'll get tired or burned out or whatever, and I don't hit it. But for the most part, I would say I'm pretty consistent in getting a lot of stuff done in the windows that I got. Josh: That's super, super interesting. Being present and being present at work, being present at home, that balance that once again, something Katie talked about a lot is just like, be fully present with where you are and then set boundaries. Having those clear for that Russell: You ask my wife too, I'm not perfect at it, but I try to let things bleed from thing to thing. I try that when I walk through the garage door at night that I'm done with work and I'm home and then, you know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I think that's what most people don't do is like, it all just mushes together where they're doing everything. So everything becomes done inefficiently. I was listening to Dan Kennedy actually yesterday. He's like, "Would you hire a doctor who is going to do surgery on you, and while he's doing surgery, he's watching YouTube video and he's eating something on the side?" He's like, "No, you want presence if you're going to hire someone." Same thing, if you want to build a funnel, you need your designer and everyone who's doing this to have laser focus. You don't want them doing these other things because you need their full attention and presence. Josh: That's awesome. This one's from Paul Vanblum He says, and I'm going to paraphrase this here because... But how do you modify your behavior? Which is, like maybe you've got this thing that you... I don't know, scroll Facebook too much and you just can't seem to quit. I'm sure that's not a problem for you, but how do you go through it actually change or modify behavior? Because it sounds like a lot of your life is routine. Is that true? You figure out the process that works and then you go until it needs to change. And then it's just you pick the next process. So how do you go through and modify behavior that you want to be able to change? Russell: That's a big section of the new book that's coming out someday in the future. So this is a reality is that the shorter versions if we're running close on time is understanding that we do things that meet our needs. And so we had to figure out, how are our needs being met? Talked about this at Funnel Hacking Live a little bit with Tony Robbins, Six Human Needs, right? Like if any... I wish I could geek out on this for like two hours. Maybe this would be the first topic for next time we do this. Josh: Yeah. I was going to say maybe we do that. Russell: That'd be fun. But there's six human needs and there's four needs of the body. And anytime three of the four needs of the body are met, it creates a physical addiction inside you. So if you're scrolling Facebook all day long, it's because it's meeting a need. Like you're getting certainty from it. You're getting significance from it. And you're probably getting love and connection from it. So three of your four needs are being met... And variety, all four of your needs are being met by scrolling Facebook. So it's creating a physical addiction. So for you to break that physical addiction, it's not going to be easy unless you replace it with another physical addiction that you enjoy more. So it's like I have to replacing that. I can't just just willpower it out and got this thing out and be gone. It's like, I'm trying to get my needs met somewhere. And so they're getting met there, I'm good. So I need to get met somewhere else to replace it. It's a lot of people get their needs met by eating. And so they keep eating, eating, and they want to lose weight and they can't lose weight because all their needs are met there. And so until they replace those needs somewhere else, they're going to keep defaulting to that. Again, we can geek on that for a long time, but that's the core root of it. Is it fulfills your need until you get those needs met somewhere else you're going to keep falling back to it over and over and over again. Josh: All right. Last two, super rapid fire questions. Number one. What is the top, the number one or... I'll give you top three, because number one's impossible. Top three books outside of your own that someone must read? Outside of your own because duh obviously is DotcomSecrets, Expert Secrets, and Traffic Secrets. Thinking bio... Russell: Oh, depends on which area of your life looking at. I just bought... I spent a... not a small, a pretty big fortune buying the Napoleon Hill thing. So I'm in the middle of this Napoleon Hill like Deep Dive. Can I give you my three best Napoleon Hill books because that's all I got right now. Josh: There you go. All right, modify the question, three best Napoleon Hill books? Russell: Everything else seems like a distraction. So for me Outwitting the Devil is the best thing he's ever written. It is insanely good and very, very practical. Think and Grow Rich, I've been revisiting and like, oh, it's so good. And then the Laws of Success is not a book. It's a book series, which I now own. Oh my gosh. I don't know if I've even told you this yet. I think I showed you a quick picture, but- Josh: You showed me a video, yeah. Russell: ... The Laws of Success was published in 1928. I have his version that he wrote in 1925 before he sent it to the editors or publishers, first edition signed that he printed at a schoolhouse here in my possession. It's insane. Josh: I can't wait to visit your library bro. Oh my gosh. It's crazy. Russell: But those are the three. I would start with Outwitting the Devil because I'll make you fall in love with Napoleon Hill, then go Think and Grow Rich. And if you love that, then go into Laws of Success' it's like a longer form version of stuff, but it's... Ah, he's my favorite right now. Josh: All right, last question for you. And we all know the answer to this, but I thought it was a great last question to end on just to make sure in business, in marketing, in success for all of success, what's the number one skillset that someone must learn? Russell: Oh, persuasion. Josh: Persuasion. Russell: It's learning how to tell a story in a way that gets people to move. Because everything else, like I can outsource all the rest of it. But like I said, we're talking about creating the offer for the Magnetic Marketing. It's the story, the persuasion, the thing that's going to get people to move. And that... Because that weaves into your funnel, weaves into your email, like weaves into how you get your team to move. How you get your community. All the stuff comes down to that skillset of learning how to persuade people. Josh: Awesome. Well, Russell, I think that wraps it up. We'll see what the audience says. But that is a fun run. Russell: That was really fun, man. I appreciate that. This has been a good day. I woke up this morning working, have a ton of energy. This has been a lot of fun energy. I appreciate you appreciate it. And if you guys like these episodes like this, let us know and we'll do it again. This was kind of a test drive to see if you enjoyed it. Josh: Yeah, you got to let us know guys. Russell: And I had a lot of fun. So hopefully you did too. Josh: Was this was super fun. Yeah, man, for sure. It was good chatting with you and everybody go buy Russell stuff and ClickFunnels and all the things because it'll make you tons and tons of money and that's it. That's just the end of it. Russell: That's the real reason we did this… I wanted you to pitch the stuff so I didn't have to awkwardly tell people to buy it. Thank you so much. Josh: Okay. Everybody go buy stuff right now. It is amazing. That's my pitch. The first thing you're going to get is you're going to get a change of belief. The second thing you're going to get is you're going to get, I don't know what it is, a step by step process of the marketing bible. The third thing you're going to get is increase the status because Russell will like you. Boom there's my pitch. Russell: Boom. What more do you want in life? Come on now. Josh: Yeah, you can't imagine. All right, Russell. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate your time and we'll talk to you soon. Russell: Awesome. Thank you too.

What is the future of funnels...? With meta-verse coming, what should we be focused on now!? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. I'm back with my co-host Josh Forti. How you doing, man? Josh Forti: I'm doing awesome, man. How are you? Russell: Doing so good. We just recorded a new episode for you guys. This one's all about funnels and I think it went in a different direction you thought it was going to go, didn't it? Josh: Yeah, it did, a little bit. It was super good. Russell: …because the question was like, "What is the next funnel? What's the thing?" And it wasn't a funnel thing, it was something different. So, I think this is an episode you guys can enjoy. Josh: It's tough. Russell: It's been so exciting for me, I literally woke up at 5:00 AM every morning this week because I'm geeking out on the thing that you're going to learn about. And hopefully, it'll help you guys with all your funnels, no matter if you're running a webinar funnel, or a book funnel, or a challenge funnel, or whatever, doesn't really matter. This principle, you can overlay on top of all of them and it'll make them all better. So, that said, should we queue up the theme song? Josh: Let's do it. Russell: Let's go. Josh: Now we got to move into.. I want to move into funnels, dude. This is a topic that continued to come up. So kind of a back story. When we're preparing for this episode, guys like, Russell hit me up and was like, "Do you want to do a podcast together?" And I was like, "Yeah, what do you want to do it on?" He's like, "I don't know, find something." And I'm like, "oh, all right." And so- Russell: "You tell me." Josh: I do what I all always do and I go to the community and I'm like, if the community tells me... I loved Poland's presentation at Funnel Hacking Live it's like, "Ask, go ask your community. What did they tell you?" And so, that's what we did. I went to my Facebook group and I went on my Instagram and luckily, I have a pretty engaged following that will give us lots of feedback back. And this theme that kept coming up was funnels. And obviously, this is your world. But it was interesting because I've been talking with several different higher level people that are like, "How are all the funnels, they made tens of millions of dollars or whatever?" And it's like, "This funnel's not really working anymore. This funnel's kind of working here. This type of funnel is working." And so there's like, I feel like we're in this phase of funnels are almost evolving, where it used to be that you could run an ad to a webinar and sell a 9.97 product, and make a million bucks, and high profit margins, and you can make it work. But I was talking to Dan Henry the other day and he's like, "Dude, I can't even make that work anymore." And he's like, "And I'm brilliant at ads." And like Sam Ovens, I was talking to him the other day- Russell: Dan Henry, "I know everything." I love Dan. Josh: And Sam Ovens was like, "Man, we're probably going to shut down our front-end $2,000 program and we're going to transition up and evolve the way we do funnels." And so, funnels are the thing, obviously. They're going to be around forever, they've been around forever, you popularized them. But I want to go and take this into two parts and see where this goes. But number one, what is the foundation of funnels? What are the things that like... it doesn't matter how it's executed, the funnel itself, this is the thing that works. Because I think a lot of people get confused that... Whenever I talk to a lot of my students that are building funnels, they're like, "Should I do this type or this?" And I'm like, "The core essence of funnels doesn't change," so what are the core essence of funnels? And then two, what is the future of what that looks like rolled out with technology? Because I mean, I know it's not here yet and one of the things we'll talk about, but- Russell: Metaverse. Josh: We got Metaverse. And my wife was like, "Oh my gosh, ask Russell. If I want to be able to walk into Metaverse and Russell's going to be right there being like, "'Hey, do you want to buy my funnel cake,' click this button and you go into a portal. Instead of another page, you enter a new world that is Russell's world, that'd be so cool." But let's start with the foundation of funnels. When someone is building a funnel, when they're looking at it, what are the core pieces that they're actually looking at? Take us back to the foundation of that because I think a lot of people miss that or forget. Russell: Yeah. So, I'll take you back in history back in time so back to my beginning. Think what example I have sitting here on my desk that I can show you. So, the core, the thing you have to understand why funnels are essential, and why they'll always be here, comes back to my favorite Dan Kennedy quote of all time which is, "Whoever can spend the most money to acquire customer wins." This is the foundation but... Everything else you have understand- Josh: Like 7,000 speakers at Funnel Hacking Live all said that. Russell: Yeah, because it's the thing. In fact, you'll see, if you look at the... And maybe we'll get into this. My next move, what's happening next year for me? I'm looking at this, all ties into that as well. Why did I buy Dan Kennedy's company? Why am I doing these things? And I'll show you it's literally to solve that exact same question. So, when I got started 20 years ago, people didn't have offers yet they just had a product. So, you would be... Just say a book, like, "Okay, here's my book," and I would just sell a product, and that was what I was selling. And it worked for a long time and then guess what? Everyone else is like, "Oh, dude's making money with this product, I can make a product," they make the same product. Now you got 10 people selling a product that's similar. And so, then it's harder to compete because now you're no longer a unique thing, you are a commodity. And anytime you're a commodity, the person with the lowest price always wins. So, as soon as everyone's doing it, you got to drop at the bottom and then you lose your margin and then life sucks because if you don't profit what's the point of what we're doing? So, there's the first phase. So, then the next phase is like, "Okay, well I got a product, everyone's got the same product but how do I turn this from a product into an offer?" That was the first evolution. It's like, "Hey, when you buy my book, you also get my book, but you're also going to get my video course, my audio course, and then my checklist and my..." And all of a sudden you make something truly unique again where it's like, not just a product, but this is my offer that's specific, unique to me, that nobody else has. So that was the next evolution. And we got really good then in making offers that were sexy. It's like, "Oh yeah, everyone's selling this, but mine, if you get mine, you also da da, da, da, these other things." Right? And that's where this whole offer development started happening. In my mind, probably 15 years ago is when this became the thing that we all focused on. And whoever had the best offer was going to win because ads didn't ship that much. It was just like you're competing so now you're competing with six different people or 10 different people. So because that, Google ads AdWords cost went up, because there's 20 people bidding on the same keyword versus just you, initially. Now you're coming in, you make a better offer. Then you get the lion share people buy from you because your offer is the best. That was kind the next phase. And then of course the market evolves. Everyone gets smart. Everyone starts making good offers. Now it's like, maybe they're unique offers, but they're all good offers. Now it's like the market's getting fragmented up again. And so this is where the evolution now of funnels started happening where... And it was before. We didn't have one click up-sales back in the day. But the first thing was like: you buy my potato gun DVD, fill in your credit card, you buy it. The next page, you're like, "Do you want the potato gun kit? Cool. Get your credit card back out and fill it out again." And they'd fill out all the credit card again. Josh: Dang. Russell: But even with that, there's no one-click up-sales, man, like 15, 20, 30% people would buy the second thing. And all of a sudden, I'm selling a potato gun DVD, but I'm making 200 bucks on the back of the kit and nobody else selling potato gun DVDs was doing. I could outspend them all. So even though costs me more per click, I was able to get all the clicks because I made way more money than anybody else. So I was able to dominate the market. And that was kind of the next phase. And what's interesting is that depending on the market you're in, depends on where this is. For example, I'm in a fun phase where I wanted some side projects. So I'm launching a couple supplement companies. The first supplement company launched is called Zooma Juice. It's a green drink company. And some of you guys know, I actually worked with Drew Canole and his team back in the day on Organifi, and helped them launch that when it first came out seven years ago, and helped him build an actual funnel. And what's interesting is because of that... The green drink market is sophisticated. I went and funnel hacked, probably, 30 green drink offers before we built Zooma Juice. And all of them have pretty advanced funnels. Everyone's doing the best practices pretty well. Second company that we are starting, I acquired a bone broth company. And so I took... Got bone broth company and went funnel hacked every bone broth offer. And that market's new. Nobody had a funnel, not one. They have an offer, they have a product, that's it. And I'm like, "I'm walking into virgin funnel territory." We'll be the biggest bone broth company on the planet in like 30 days? Because there's nobody who understands any of what we're talking about. We'll outspend everybody 10 to 1 because we understand the funnel structure. So depending on what market you're in, some markets haven't even evolved to the funnels yet. Some have, that's exciting. If they have, it's like, "Cool. We got... We can funnel hack. We get good ideas of what's working." If it hasn't like, "Man, you can bring all the stuff we know into these markets and just dominate and destroy them all." It was funny, as we were buying, I was funnel hacking the bone broth offers, I was like, "There's literally not single upsell, order form bump, email sequence. Like nothing." I was just like, "This is like, oh, embarrassing. Almost too easy." That was next phase though. And then to your point, initially it was like... In fact, I remember 10 pre-click funnels. Almost every funnel was the same. It was a video sales letter order button order form upsell one, upsell two, down-sell, down-sell. Thank you, basically. That was what a funnel was. In fact, if you look at, before we launched ClickFunnels, the first T and C event, Ryan Dice and Perry, and they had this whole team event talk about, "Here's the funnel." And they had a funnel and there's only one. And it was just like, "This is the five steps of every funnel." And it fits. It was like trip wire. They had these five steps like trip wire, profit maximizer, and they five or six... They had a name for each page. And it was like, "This is the funnel." And in reality, that was the funnel. There weren't funnels. It was like, "This is a funnel. This is kind of the one." And at the time when I was writing The Dot Com Seekers book and we had been playing with different ones, but there wasn't a lot of this thing out there. Was just kind of like, for the most part, there was a funnel. After ClickFunnels came out and it gave people the ability to create things fast and start innovating, creating ideas, that. And then I was like writing all my ideas in the book and people are doing stuff. It started evolving quickly. Last seven years have evolved where now there's been like a million different funnel things come out, from webinar funnels, auto webinar funnels, high funnels, low ticket funnels, trip wires, SLOs VSLs, challenges, paid challenges, free challenges, challenges to a webinar challenges to high tickets, a webinar to high ticket. There's a billion variations that come from that which probably gets people overwhelming. And so this os what I want to tell them because, this kind of comes back to your first questions, what is it? The reality is, it's going to be shocking for most of you guys, what funnel type you use doesn't really matter. They all work. The thing that matters is the offer. You still have to make the sexiest offer. That's still the most important. We acquired Dan Kennedy's company and we're doing this merger. And like I've spent I podcast episode this morning driving to the office. I've been up every single morning at 5:00 AM because I'm so excited. Because we have a fun, we picked a funnel on structure, we have all of products. I spend a week every morning at 5:00 AM, from 5:00 till like 7:30, when my kids are getting up, in there writing the page for the copy and the offer, and then tweaking and tweaking. That's the thing. The sexiness of the offer that gets people in is the key. So I can get them in, I can use this to get them in a webinar, in a challenge, in a free plus shipping. It doesn't matter. It's like the offer is the thing that puts people in a momentum. And the thing that I'm selling, I could sell it in the webinar. I could sell it in the challenge. I like there's I could sell in all the different funnels. It would fit in all of them. I'm picking the one that I'm using because I think it's going to go... For like the launch campaign, it the one that'll probably get sells the fastest, but it'll work in all of them. And So it's understanding that, it's still coming to the core fundamentals. The funnel structure is the sales process. All of them will work. You just got to figure out better way to sell. Like that's the harder thing that people are missing. Josh: All right. So let's talk... I want to dive into that offer. When you say specifically here... Because I think, and this is just from coaching with a lot of people, the questions that I get asked when I talk about this type of stuff. You talk about the offers, the sexy thing, but how does the offer affect getting somebody to opt in? How does the offer affect my ad? How does the offer affect the training? I don't show my offer until the end after the whole thing. So how does that affect every other step of the funnel? Russell: Okay, great question. So if I can see one here. Right, sorry. I had all the examples here a second ago. Oh, well. I'll just tell you the story. So when Dan Kennedy started his newsletter, in the Dan Kennedy company, the newsletter's the foundation of everything. And we could do a whole podcast episode just on psychology of the original GKIC, when Bill Glazer was running it with Dan. But the newsletter- Josh: Sounds like a sexy topic. Russell: Yeah. It'd be really fun, actually. I love... In fact, it's funny because I spent so much time with Bill Glazer geeking out about. I knew their business really well. And when that they sold it the very first time people bought it and didn't understand the business. And I saw within weeks of them destroying the foundation, I was like, "You guys literally don't know what you bought. You should have asked some questions before you wrote a check that big anyway." But the core is the newsletter. And so I had a chance to go back in the archives. I literally... they gave me, "Here's Google drive. Everything's ever been created." So I'm like, "This is... It's insane." for nerdy Russell, everything Dan's ever said is in this drive. And most of it, no one's ever seen before, so I'm freaking out. But the newsletter started back in like 1995 ish. I was like 15 years old when it started and it was just a newsletter. That's all it was right. It's like a product. That's how they sold it. And from '95 till I think I was probably 23, 24. So, 2004, 2005 ish was when Bill Glazer bought out the company from Dan and kind of ran it, and then they launched it. Instead of a newsletter, they launched it as an offer. And the offer at the time... I still remember the day it happened because I got like 400 emails from my Yanik Silver and all the different gurus at the time. They all started emailing about this Dan Kennedy offer. And it was called the most incredible free gift ever. And in fact, internally in the company called the MIFGE offer, M-I-F-G-E, the most incredible free gift ever. And what it was, it was like, "Hey, when you sign up for magnetic marketing net letter, what you're going to get is you're going to get..." I think it's like, "$639.93 for the money making material from Dan Kennedy himself." So it was like, "We'll give you all this cool stuff when you sign up for the newsletter." And it was the bribe. It's kind of like, if you guys remember back in the day, sports illustrator. It's really hard to sell sports illustrated issues. So what they would do is they would have TV commercials were like, "Here's sports illustrator, 12 issues year about the best sports. When you sign up today, we're going to give you..." And then they had their version of the most incredible free gift offer. It was this huge football clock and the sports illustrator swimsuit issue. That was the MIFGE offer for sports illustrator. And so Dan had their... They had their MIFGE offer, and they went from having five or 600 subscribers at that time to... Bill built it up to over, I don't know, 10, 15, 20. I don't know how big it got it as peak, but 10,000 plus members. And it was because they took a newsletter and they made it an offer. And that's how they launched initially. And so the MIFGE is how they did it. Now, fast forward to Russell gets access to all this stuff. I'm like, "This is amazing." So I'm trying to sit... I sat down Monday morning. No, sorry. It was last Saturday. Saturday. I wanted to write... I didn't want to do all the pages in the offer. So I have some of my team do the upsells and down-sells. I was like, "The landing page, this is mine." I want to write because I want to make sure I get the offer right and everything. Because this is... everything hinges on this. The landing page is broken, nothing works. And so I went and I funnel hacked. I every newsletter, sales letter, I could find throughout time. I just went deep in my archives, way back machine. People I knew who publishing newsletters, looked at every variation of theirs for the last 10 years. I totally geeked out like Russell does. Funnel hacking. I want to understand how people are structuring their newsletter offers. Gore's got a ton of them. So I'm looking at tons of them and everyone I looked at, I come back to like the Dan Kennedy one I'm like this offers just not sexy. More like $630 of money making information sounded cool in 2003. But today, it's like every opt-in, people are giving a thousand dollars worth of free crap. It wasn't that sexy- Josh: Right. Inflation, baby. Oh my word. Russell: Yeah. And then I'm like, "Now my funnel nerds are going to go and they're going to sign for this newsletter, and they're going to get this newsletter from Dan. He's talking about direct mail and faxing. And they're going to be confused and they're going to cancel." I have this weird opportunity. I was like, "This is just not the right thing." And I was like, "How do I make this sexy excited? How do I get myself excited to email about it?" And then Dan's email. I got to get affiliates on board and other people. How do I make this sexy so that I can create the noise? So that when there's an ad, there's a good enough hook in the ad that people are going to click? Because if the ads like, "Old marketing, grumpy marketing genius is going to give you 300 or $639 money making material for free when you join this newsletter," no one's going to click on that. The hook sucks now. It was good in 2003, horrible in 2021. And so I'm like sitting there and I spent three hours just going to yourself. And I was like, no matter how I tried, the offer just didn't feel right. And I explain to other knight, I was like, "I know I wouldn't click and I know I wouldn't buy it. And I don't want to even email my list tell them about it because it's not that exciting. How do I structure this in a way that's going to be really exciting?" And so that the problem. This is where I got stuck at. Right. And then, after about three hours of it is when I had the light bulb, I was like, "Oh my gosh." So all of the current Dan Kennedy customers, they love Dan. They're obsessed with them. And actually, this is a fascinating step. You'll appreciate this. Have you read a thousand true fans? Josh: Yeah. I love that book. Russell: It was crazy. So Dan's company was sold initially like 10 years ago, from Bill Glazer sold it. In the last 10 years, they haven't bought a single ad. So that's the attrition of the company, that's been happening. And I'm acquiring it like, "Oh, let's buy some ads." But what's crazy is 10 years since they bought the last ad, there are almost, to a T, it's like 990 something active paid subscribers still on a newsletter a decade later, without any ads at all. A thousand true fans. Is that crazy? Josh: That's insane. Russell: Really? Josh: And you're one of those true fans because you bought the whole company. Russell: Yeah. I thought that was a fascinating side note. So anyway, that's crazy. Like Dan's people love Dan. They love him talking. If they want Dan, but they need funnels. And I'm like, I don't want to come and be the guy who acquires the company and just starts emailing his own offer. I need them to.. I need to indoctrinate them to want it. So it's like, they're going to read Dan's newsletter and how do I bridge that to ClickFunnels? And I'm like, my funnel nerds are going to read his newsletter and be like, "I don't understand. This isn't..." They need it. They don't know they want it yet. If I can indoctrinate them for a while, they'll be like, "Oh my gosh, I get this," but it's going to take a while for them to really respect it enough that they'll get it. I was the same way. First time I heard Kennedy, I was like, "This guy's old, boring, and doesn't relate to what I'm talking about." And after I went deep in, I was like, "Oh my gosh, everything he says is literal. He's handing gold nuggets out." And I was just like, I didn't notice them. Now I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And so I was like, "I need this bridge." And some people know, when I first joined the Kennedy world, we actually launched my first print newsletter right afterwards. It was called The Dot Com Seekers Journal. It morphed from The Dot Com Seekers Journal to eventually call it, The Dot Com Seekers Labs. And then it became a Funnel Report and then it became Funnel University. So I actually ran a print newsletter for 14 years. We shut it down two years ago, but 14 years I ran a print newsletter. Josh: Yeah. I remember when you shut it down actually. Russell: Yeah. And I loved it, but I just, anyway... There's reasons like the person who was publishing it, she had a baby and she retired and all these things. I was just like, "Ah. I'm, I'm focusing ClickFunnels. Don't even worry about this right now." So we shut it down. But I loved that part of it. And I was like, what if I create an offer where the concept, the story, the hook of this whole entire thing is like, "Russell bought Dan company and they're coming together to give you two things like the best foundational direct response in the world. Plus the best in the marketing, the cutting edge, the new things are happening. So you can have both sides. So you understand the foundation you need to be able to survive Facebook slapping you and all these things happening and media shifting and changing. But you also have like what's working today so you can capitalize on things in real time." What if we took those two worlds together? The baby. And so instead of just being like, "You're signing for the new, from the Dan Kennedy newsletter," what if it was like, "Dan Kennedy, Russell Brunson?" Two different newsletters. You get two newsletters for the price of one. I was like, "That's the offer. That's the hook. That's what gets affiliates excited, to get ads excited, everything gets excited around this offer." And then, every mornings at 5:00 in this morning, or 5:00 AM every morning this week, I woke up and I'm writing copy for this page of like, "Okay, here's the hook. They're coming in. And there's Dan and there's Russell." How these things are coming together. And the story behind that, how it worked and then the offer instead of just like, "Here's $697 worth of free stuff," it's like, "you get two newsletters. You get the best direct response, best of Russell, every two weeks." So you get one in the mail and then 14 days later, you get the next one. And you're getting both of these. You get the old and the new but you only pay one price. You get both for the price of one. And then you get all Dan's bonus, all Russell's bonuses. Now becomes this like insane offer where, now, it's like, "I'm excited to mail my list." We bought Dan's company, you get all my best stuff in this to get, and it's this combination. And then affiliates will be excited. It just... And maybe the hook bombs, I don't know. But it gave me the energy, just like, "Okay, now, this is exciting and sexy." And so I can turn that into webinar where it's just like, "Dan Kennedy and Russell Brunson coming together to literally blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever." Like, "Opt in here to find our webinar," and people would opt in because the story, the hook is exciting or I can do a challenge like, "The seven day challenge. Me and Dan are going to go through how to destroy your business and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And in the end, I'm selling a newsletter or it could be a VSL telling the story with a newsletter or could be... all of them work. The book is the secrets of story. Josh: Well, what it sounds like... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like you just created this story about the offer. And now that you know what the offer is, and there's a reason that that came together and like, "That's what it is," now, you understand the story behind that. I'm trying to think of it like an analogy. For example, Disney world. That offer is so good. You're literally going into a different world that pretty much sells itself once you put it out there. And so once you have the story, once you have that idea around what the offer does and how it's unique and how it's it's own unique thing, then you can just take that and then it fills the rest of the funnel. Because everybody wants that thing because now the offer itself is so good. And I think one of the problems that I had, man, for so long is, I was trying to convince people that they wanted my thing be... Or convince people that they had this problem, and then that they wanted this thing, and then I would make them an offer on it. And they wouldn't get to... they wouldn't even know about the offer, or what the offer did, or like anything about it, until like forced or like right before the offer. And they'd be like, "And then I've got this offer? Boo." And because of that, there was no story around it. There's no congruency with it. And so then it was like, "Oh, I didn't even know. That's what I was here for." And then I would like try to sell them something and it wouldn't sell. And I feel like that's the problem that got solved right there, is like first you created the offer and the story around the offer and you made it sexy. And then that made everything else on the funnel super, super easy, because you were just pointing them back to that. Russell: Everything, the funnel plus all the ads. Because now the ads are fun. "Why Dan Kennedy came out of retirement? Dan Kennedy almost died. What's he doing today?" All a sudden, all these hooks that tie into that. "Why did Dan Kennedy partner with the owner ClickFunnels? Why did... Is it true that ClickFunnels was built off the back of all Dan Kennedy principles?" There's so many stories I can tell now that are hooks. That'll grab his people in or my people in or... And then the landing page. And then... It creates everything. And the people that the best in the world of this, and they also make the most money, is Agora. The good Gora publishing. They're selling newsletters. That's all they sell. Right. But every single time they have these insane stories like Porter Stan's got... I think maybe not still, but for like a decade and a half, the highest of all the Agora divisions. I think he'll do like 1.5 or 2 billion dollars a year. Like these are big divisions. Porter's letter one. And, the story was like, "The railroad across America." And it was talking about like, "The original railroad, how it happened and all the people made money along the way. And this is the next railroad that's being built. It's the digital highway and all this stuff." And that offer was selling a newsletter. But it's the story behind it that became this thing that built a billion dollar company. And they're good. They're so good at figuring out the story, those kind of things. And I think sometimes we're like, "Hey, I've created a course in the passed. You should create a course too. I made money. It's going to be awesome." And then like, "You should buy my course creating software or whatever." Like, "That's not the thing." We're so bad at telling stories. We brag about our result. We tell them making the same result and that's it. It's like, no, that's not the key. It's the story. It's the entry. It's the... We want to be entertained. We want to be courted. We want to be... that's the game we're playing in marketing. And so when you figure that out... The offer is actually sexy. And then why is that sexy? The sexiness is not just, "You get a bunch of crap." The sexiness is the story about like how this was created. Josh: Literally what it does that. Russell: That's the fascinating part. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Catherine Jones. One of her favorite things is, "When your stories become their stories, then your solutions become their solutions." and that's literally what this is. If you can tell them a story where they like it and they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing," then, go and do it. So for example, Harry Potter world. The story, it... My wife freaking loves Harry Potter world. I mean, that was her thing. When we went down to Funnel Hacking Live, it was like, we were going to take a half a day just to go to Harry Potter world. So we showed up and then it was like, "Hey." Miles is like, "Dude, the buss is leaving for Harry Potter world." There wasn't much convincing that has to be done. The story is, "Oh my gosh, Harry Potter world's amazing. It's Harry Potter. I want it" She wanted that thing because of the story that was leading up to it. There was no, "What's Harry Potter world? Is it any good? What's this?" It's like, "No, it's Harry Potter world." And you're like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I want it." That's like the story with that. So that's super, super interesting. So where do you see the future of funnels going? Because obviously there's a lot of changes coming with ClickFunnels and ClickFunnels 2.0, which, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Gusting. Gusting hits me up. Probably... Dude, he probably hits me up once a week and is like, "Hey, guess what? ClickFunnel 2.0 is awesome. And you don't have it." And I'm like, "I heard you. Stop." Russell: He actually built out the magnetic marketing funnel hub right now for me, which is cool. Josh: So, yeah. So anyway, but what's the next evolution? And we don't have really have too much to talk about metaverse and where that goes. But we're entering this new world. I mean, the world is changing very, very, very rapidly. COVID is one of those things that we thought the internet was a big deal, and internet marketing was a big deal, pre-COVID, and then we watch zoom blow up by like 3000% or something like that. And they ruin zoom for us. But anyway, so where are things going that people should be paying attention to and going actually studying and understanding about the future of funnels? Because one of the things that I've been really, really focused on and we're kind of getting dialed in, is community funnels, Specifically, I think for me, one of the things that I've noticed is that it's very, very... It's getting increasingly harder to sell things unless you have a community that's tied with it. And so like for me, one of the things we're focusing on is how do we build funnels inside of our community where our community actually becomes part of the funnel? Which is kind of a cool concept. What do you see as those future things of where funnels are headed, where the big opportunities are going to be? What's the next add to webinar to a 9 97 course? You know what I'm saying? What's the future? Where we're heading? Russell: I hate to make it sound simple, but if I come back to the fundamentals we talked about the beginning of this call. Like Dan Kennedy, whoever can spend the most money to acquire customer wins. So you look at it through that lens. Went from a product, to an offer, to a funnel. And now with the funnel, I have more ways to make money. And then, from there, the next evolution was like from funnel to value ladder. Right now, it's like, I have a break even funnel and move people up a value ladder and that's how I may lose money or break even on my book funnel, but then my webinar funnel's going to make money or vice versa. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: That was the next phase. And I think, for me, where I'm playing because I'm trying to play for the next 10 years. How do I win this game? We're doing well. I want to.. How do I get a point where, Shopify, or Salesforce is like, "I want to write you a check for 20 billion because you're such annoyance." The way I'm going to do that, for me, is... and it comes back to why did I acquire Magnet Marketing? Why did I buy Brad Callin's company? Why am I doing this? Because I'm not looking at breakeven funnels anymore. Breakeven funnels, awesome. I'm going one chair back or I'm building breakeven businesses. So magnetic marketing, the only gold magnetic is to break even. The entire company, the value ladder, the coaching, the everything. So every penny made side of magnetic marketing be dumped back into ads, want 100% of the profits dump back into ads. So this company's blowing up. And I get now all these things dumped into my value ladder for ClickFunnels. Like that's it. Voomly doing 40 million a year? Why do we acquire that company? Tons of lead flow. Now, right now there's... it was 10 million dollars a year net profit. All that money now is being dumped directly into lead flow as a breakeven business, to acquire customers for ClickFunnel. So I think it's going deeper. It's looking past... from product to offer, to funnel, to value ladder, to how do I buy or acquire or create something where the only goal of this entire business is just get customers for free that can put into here. And I thing, for me, that's the next level is just like that thought. Josh: You just blew my mind, dude. Holy cow. You're creating an ecosystem, but in a very specific way. It's interesting, as you just told that out, just, "First, it was this. Then, it was this." The thing before it didn't change. That's still part of it. Russell: It's both the same. Yeah. Josh: Right. But it's kind of that next evolution, that next piece of where that comes out. That's fascinating. I think a lot of people need to just really rewind that, go listen to that clip again and let your brain sit on that. Russell: That's how I'm playing the game. Yes. Hopefully I'm four step ahead everyone else, but I'm all for showing that with you guys. And so I just... Again, for everyone to start thinking that, because it's going to get harder. It's going to get more expensive. It's going to get more... We've seen that this year. Ad costs have gone up. It's not going to get cheap. It's not going to bounce back down and be cheaper. It's going to keep doing that. The people who only had a product back in the day are out of business. People only had an offer back in day, they're out of business. People don't have a funnel are out of a business. People don't have a value ladder out of a business. So it's just thinking ahead of that. Metaverse or whatever next step is, doesn't really matter. It's the principle still is the same for me. For 20 years, whoever can spend the most money to acquire customer wins. Josh: Wins. Russell: How do I do that in a way that serves the customers, brings them in and then... I'll end on this, because it back to what you said. And I did a podcast on this. It's in the facts I got from Dan Kennedy. After the company sold last time, he was super mad at the company that had jacked up his brand and his legacy and stuff. And so like he sent this 25 page facts, like all the things to do to fix it. And there's one paragraph where he said, "There's difference between why customers come in and why they stay." He said, "People think they're the same things." He's like, "No, no, they're different." Why they come in is because they see the hook of like, "Ooh, the scene." They come in from that. They stay for something different. And you have to understand that. So like I had my inner circle meeting, right. Everyone paid 50 grand to be in the room. We had a hundred entrepreneurs in the room and I told them. I said like, "Well, you guys all because you want to learn funnels from Russell." But I'm like, "The reason why you came is not why you were going to stay here. The reason I get sick year, after year, after year is because of the community." That's it. That's why I sat in Dan Kennedy rooms for six years of my life is because the community built and I wanted to be around these people. I came for Dan stuck for the community. And I think that you start understanding that, that's how you get these people to come in on a front end, but they stay and they buy over and over and they stay on continuity. They stick because it's like.. They come in from a hook, but they stay for the something different. And so really understanding that and then weaving everything you're doing like you're doing now with the community funnels, which is perfect. Josh: That's amazing. That's amazing. All right. Well I think that's a good ending point for that topic. Russell: There's episode number two of our hangout today, which was amazing.

With everything we have to do... does podcasting really make sense? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. We've got three special episodes for you. The first one, well, actually all three of them are with my guest host, Josh Forti. We're going to be breaking down some cool things. The first episode... What happened in the first episode? It was really good. Josh Forti: Yeah. We talked all about podcasting, why podcasting is important. Russell: Yeah, podcasting. So episode number one, we learned about podcasting, why we do it, how we do it, the reasons behind it, and a whole bunch of other things. If you haven't been doing a podcast yet, it's going to sell you on why you need to do one. If you have done one, it's going to show you guys why and how to amplify it, and why it's so important and how to find your best buyers from it. I hope you guys enjoy this episode. We'll cue up the theme song, and we'll be right back. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Like I said today, the next actually couple episodes, I've got a guest host with me, which I'm pumped for. We actually did two podcasts. Well, technically, they were podcasts episodes for your podcast, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I ripped them off for my podcast because they turned out so good. One is after the Atlas Shrugged book, Josh Forti flew out, and we did... How long? We went for... Josh: It was three and three and a half hours. Yeah. Russell: Three hours. Yeah. Josh: Three and a half hours, yeah. Russell: Going deep into Atlas Shrugged, which was really fascinating. I actually just reread it recently, so if you want to do Round Two, we should totally do that. And then, after I read Atwood and the devil book, I freaked out, and then Josh flew out and we did one there. So you guys who have been listening to the podcast are familiar with him and his voice. But I asked him, I love doing the podcast, but sometimes I fall behind, and my brother who does our podcast settings, "Russell, any episode today?" I'm like, "Huh." I don't even know what to think. I want someone to help come up with ideas so it's not just me. And so Josh went out to the community, asked a bunch of questions and the next couple episodes are going to be some fun conversations. So I'm pumped, man. And thank you for doing this. I know this you're doing this pro bono to hang out and just to help me out, so I appreciate that. And I'm excited to find out what people want to know about. Josh: Yeah, for sure. I love podcasting. That's my life. If I could do one thing, it would just be, have a show that we just talk all the time. So this is fun for me. It's like asking you to come hang out and geek out about funnels. So I'm super excited, though. It's going to be super cool, and dive in further, and pick your brain, and open up a new world that I don't think a lot of people get to see. Russell: Yeah. It's interesting, because I feel that when it's me doing my own podcast, I pick a topic, I go into it. But it's fun when... Yesterday I had a chance to speak at a virtual event thing, and I did my thing and in the end people ask questions. It just opens up a different side that you don't normally do. And so I don't do a lot of Q&A stuff. So I'm excited to... Josh: Yeah. It's interesting. Russell: And maybe this is the only time we do this. Maybe it's a huge train wreck, and this is the only time it happens. Or maybe it becomes a thing. We'll find out. Josh: We'll try to make it not a train wreck. We'll try. We'll do our very best. I think one of the big things though that I want to start with and kick this whole thing off is why you spend so much time with podcasting. Because here's the thing, man. You're rich. We all know it. You don't have to do this. You have this company that you could. We all learned at funnel hacking live, you turned down a billion dollar offer, so clearly you're not doing this for the money. And you've got a company. You've got a team. You've got all these resources. You could spend money on ads. You could do whatever it is that you want. Yet, somehow you are calling me up and are like, "Dude, I need to do podcasts." And to somebody who gets it, and I get it. I have a podcast. I dedicate time when it doesn't make sense. I put money into a podcast that doesn't make sense. On paper, I get and I understand content and putting it out there, and I've never been at your level either. I don't think a lot of people understand. Why do you do it, dude? Why a podcast? And why are you investing so much of the time that you have now, which is limited, I'm sure? There's a lot of people trying for your attention. Why a podcast? And why is that such a core, fundamental piece that you actually spend so much time on, when you clearly don't have to? Russell: I could probably, in fact, I'll probably give you four or five reasons, because there's not just one reason. There's a lot of them. And I actually, I remember when podcasting started. I was at at Armand Morin's BigSeminar, and someone was on stage, Paul Collier was on stage. He's like, "There's this thing coming. It's going to be the greatest thing in the world. It's called podcasting. And you're going to put these things in your ears and listen to people talk." I remember, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. No one will ever listen to that." I just didn't get it. He's like, "No, this is the future." And I remember because I was my roommate at the time was Josh Anderson, some of you may know Josh, and Josh went and bought every podcast domain he could think of. And I was like, "You're dumb. That's never going to happen." But I do remember, "Well, if I ever did a podcast, I'd call it the Marketing In Your Car Podcast, because when I drive my car, I could record it. And I remember thinking that. And I remember I bought, at the time, Marketing In Your Car, and I did nothing with it for, I don't know, eight or nine years. I just had it. In fact, I even paid someone to write an intro song for it. So if you ever go back to the first episodes, the first hundred-something episodes, there was this really... At the time it was so cool, and now it's corny, but there was this theme song that some guy wrote for me. And I had it for five years, this theme song, and I never used it because I was like, "I don't get podcasting." Then in my business life, we had grown up my company at the time. We had a hundred employees. And then, the long story you guys have heard before, is the company crashed. Everything fell around, and it went from a 20,000 square foot office to 2000 square foot office. I felt like an idiot. I was embarrassed. My status was at an all time low. I was weird. And for some reason in that season of my life, I had this impression, "You need to start podcasting and talk about marketing." And I was convinced at this time I was the worst marketer in the world, because I had just crashed my entire empire. I'm an idiot. I didn't want to, but I felt this impression like now it's time to start a podcast. So I literally, from the ashes of my business, started this podcast, and I had at that time a four or five minute drive to the office. Okay, I can be consistent with this. It's going to happen all the time. I'm going to do it. So I got my phone out, I clicked record, and I would literally just drive to my office and I would just talk about what we were trying to figure out. "All right. Today, we're going in the office and working on this new offer, and this is what we're thinking and da, da, da." And then the next steps were, "Oh, we launched the offer and it worked." Or it didn't work. So we tried this. It was just me documenting. It's funny. I heard Vaynerchuk talk about, "Document your journey." And I didn't know. That wasn't a thing at the time, but that's literally what I started doing. And it was nice, because it was something that was so easy. It was easy to be consistent with. I think if I would have had to do a podcast where, for me, if I had a studio and a microphone, all those things, I probably wouldn't have done it because I wouldn't have gotten enough momentum to stick with it. But it was easy. And at first the way we set it up, we couldn't track stats, so we had no idea if anyone was listening, which was a huge benefit. Because had I known how few people were listening, I probably wouldn't have kept doing it. But I just kept doing it and doing it, not really knowing what kind of return was going to happen. It's funny now. I had someone, about a year ago, go through and start from the very beginning and listen all the episodes. I was trying to get some notes and trying to remember. And it was cool, because they started coming back, reporting. He's like, "Did you know on this day you talked about why you thought anyone who wanted to build a company over 10 million dollars in sales was a moron? You should never try to grow company that big. And then over here you talked about, you're never going to hire an employee again." All my thoughts at the time, which have morphed and shifted obviously. But it's this cool thing where I have this record now of this journey from the ashes to ClickFunnels and beyond. So it's been very special for me. Josh: Okay. Sorry. I want to continue down that path, I want to interject right there. The reason I started a podcast is because, literally, you told me to. You didn't physically be like, "Josh, start a podcast." But all your books, all your content, you're like, "Publish, publish, publish, publish, publish." And I'm like, "Okay." And so it started on Facebook. It started on Facebook Live, and then it grew. And then my friend Daxy, he is like, "Dude, turn it into a podcast. Way more people would listen." All right. So I have, I don't know, four or five hundred episodes now on my podcast that I have done with you and all these different interviews or whatever. But what I tell people is, and this is true in all areas of my life, I'm so blatantly honest on my podcast. I don't filter or mince my words at all. Shocking. Russell: You're filtered on Facebook and Instagram, you're telling me? Josh: Just a little bit. But what's interesting is one of the things that you pointed out there was you have this document. You have this record of exactly where you were at at the time. And so for me, one of the things... And this is bigger than just podcasting. When you're just blatantly honest with yourself and where things are at, and you just turn on the microphone and you just talk, you actually can go back and you can watch your progress. And you can see. Oh man, when I was 26 years old, when this happened, this is what I thought about life, or this is what I thought about this particular topic, or this is what I was learning here. When I'm building a funnel or I'm building something that I knew I worked on in the past and I talked about it, I can literally go back, and I can remember the struggles. And I think it was you. It might have been. It might have not been you. It might have been Gary. I think it was you, though. You were like, "Imagine if Jeff Bezos would've documented every single day or every single week building Amazon." How much people would pay for that. That would be so epically cool. That's what it's like. So I totally understand what you're talking about there. I feel like people are embarrassed to start, they're embarrassed where they're at now. And so they don't want to put it out there. I'll never forget Liz Benny. Obviously, you know Liz. She's amazing. I had her on my podcast. This is probably a year and a half ago. And she's like, "Josh, I've watched you grow so much." And I'm like, "Really?" She's like, "Oh yeah." I'm like, "How do you know?" She's like, "Because I listen to your podcast." And it was like, "Oh, this is a long term thing." It was at that moment that I realized it. Russell: Uh huh. For sure. It's interesting because, if I haven't publicly talked much about this yet, but I've been acquiring old books. I just bought this whole, literally, library of Napoleon Hill books and stuff. And it's been so fascinating because I'm reading through and these are the records of these people and their beliefs and their thoughts. I've got old magazines from early 1900s, late 1800s. I'm reading. I found articles from Thomas Edison, who were in the publishing these. I'm reading this stuff and it's so cool. And one thing, this is Russell guilt. In the Mormon church one thing they always talk about is, you need to keep a journal, so that way your posterity has this thing. And I've never been good at keeping a journal. And what I started realizing as I'm going through all the Napoleon Hill stuff, I'm so grateful that they wrote these things down and they have this journal. And I started from that guilt again. And all of a sudden I was like, "Wait a minute. I don't have a journal, but I've been podcasting now for seven years." This is my record. This is, when I'm dead, my kids or my grandkids or my posterity or people, whoever it is. This is how they're going to learn about me and figure out who I was. And hopefully I shortcut them some trial and error. Here's the journey I went on, but here's what I figured out. I can help them. I think all of us are always talking about wanting to leave an impact. I think my podcast episodes, I'm hoping these are my journals. These are my records. This is like what I just bought from Napoleon Hill. I'm hoping that this becomes something for the future generations that they can build their businesses off and their ideas and their plans. Because my podcast is... It's a marketing podcast, but I don't talk about marketing most of the time. I talk about my family and my kids, and I'm learning, and my personal development and all the things. Marketing is just the hook I got people in, but it's my life record. It's my journal, which is cool too. Josh: Yeah, that is super cool. It's funny. Quick side note, we have to shut down this indifferent theory, because Apple.... Russell: Just spell it different. Josh: Yeah. Believe me. We've tried some things. I'm not trying to push against the biggest company in the world. So anyway, we have a new name. I'm not going to say it yet, but it's coming. But anyway, in the last just couple weeks, I've had to pause doing podcasts. And it's weird because what you said right there is, "I don't keep a journal." But I know that I do keep a journal via that exact same thing. And it was weird. I went to my wife literally two days ago. And I was like, "I need you to, to help me create a system for the short term to be able to document my thoughts because right now I'm not doing it. And I have so many things that we're going through right now." So I totally get that. But I feel like there's got to be more than that. There's got to be another reason besides just the documentation process for the podcast for you. Russell: For sure. That's the first thing. Again, I got four or five that run in my head, so I don't know what the order they'll come out in. But the next one is eventually I wrote a book. And people were like, "These books are so good. How do you know all these stories?" And for me, I have an idea, and the idea percolates in my head for a minute, and I got to tell someone. So usually first person I tell is usually the podcast. I'm thinking about this thing and I talk about it. And so I tell the story the first time. The first time it may not even be that fleshed out. Then I get to the office and I see Dave over there. Dave's excited. I'm like, "Dave, check this out." And I tell it to him again. And then I tell someone else. And then I'm doing an interview and I say it again. And I tell the story four or five, six times, and I get better and better at telling the story. And then when I'm at a seminar and I'm on stage and I'm talking. I have no idea which direction I'm going. All of a sudden, this thing will pop up my head. I've told that story six times three months ago, and it appears. I remember Tony Robbins told me this. He said, "When I go on stage, I have a plan, but the plan, it never goes to plan. I start talking." And then he's like, "These downloads just come from God or from the universe, and they just show up." And for me, as I started podcasting and telling these stories over and over and over again, that's exactly what happens now. When I need something, I'm in a situation, I'm coaching someone, I talking, I'm on an event or a stage or something. I need something often that just, it appears when I need it. And I think it's because I didn't just think about it and forget about it. I think about it. I tell it on a story. It's published. I tell someone else. And then when I write a book, I've told the story 400 times. I know the best way to tell the story now. I've seen what people laugh at, what they don't laugh at, how to do it the right way. In fact, it's interesting, my next book is a personal development book. I've struggled with that one, because I don't have a personal development podcast. And I haven't tested these stories, these principles or these theories. I've been stuck, as you know. I sent you the rough draft eight months ago, and I haven't written a word since then. Part of it is I haven't had a chance to flesh these things out. So it gives me idea to flush out my ideas is another one of them. Another one that's interesting... I don't know the exact stats, but I read it somewhere. I think I talked about on Traffic Secrets.I put it in there. But conceptually, they talked about people who are podcast listeners versus the rest of humanity. And I'm going to tell you about the stat, and I'll tell you how the practical application of that stat, which is really fascinating. So the stat was something like the average person who listens to the radio makes, I don't know, $60,000 a year. And whereas the average podcast listener makes $120,000 a year. So the people you are getting and acquiring, they are people with more spending power. They're more affluent people that are the kind of people who are trying to develop their brain, their minds, things like that. They're more likely to buy a course or software or a Mastermind or things like that, because they're the kind of people who aren't just listening to the radio to numb themselves. They're listening to audio to grow. That's the fascinating thing that you're getting a better caliber customer who are listening. Number two, you are getting them in their most intimate moments. When do you listen to a podcast? It's when I'm working out and I'm by myself and it's me and them, and I have their full attention. I'm not listening to a podcast where I'm writing an email or texting someone. Or I'm in the car driving. I'm getting access to their brains and their minds in their most intimate moments. But it's just me and them. Even video. Josh: It's not even like that on YouTube either. Russell: Yeah. I'll watch a YouTube video while I'm cooking dinner, while I'm doing five other things. Josh: That's super interesting. Russell: I don't listen to podcasts with my kids in the room, because they're going to ask me a question. They're going to mess it up. It's when I'm separate and it's just me and them and that's it. I have a different level of intimacy with the podcast people that I'm listening to. So the higher quality customers, better level of intimacy, and then the practical application. The first time I really got this, it was after I launched my Inner Circle the very first time. And again, it was funny, because I always told everybody I never money on my podcast. I'm doing this podcast, I'm not making any money from it… And as I did it for four or five years, and I launched my first version of my first version of my Inner Circle, and we had a point where we had about 33 people in it paying 25 grand. And I remember at one of the events, somebody asked, "How did you guys bump into Russell?" And all of them were like, "Oh, I saw something, but then I got on this podcast, and I listened to him every single day while I was working out for six months. And he kept talking about this Inner Circle and talking about this thing. He's going to get all these things." And it was fascinating. Almost everyone in the room, they didn't hear about my podcast. Podcast isn't good for lead gen. It's never. Josh: Yeah. It's horrible for lead gen. Russell: You can't just buy ads and blow up your podcast. But people find out about you. They plug in to your podcast. And the people who make that transition from, "I saw a book." "I saw an ad." "I saw something." And they make that transition where they actually get the phone out, subscribe, and then plug you in. Those become your best customers, your highest buyers. They're the best. And so the practical application is yes, by doing this podcast, I'm taking... And I talk about this in Expert Secrets. And actually my Inner Circle meeting last month, we talked a lot about this. We talked about creating a new opportunity versus an improvement offer. And for the most part you want to create new opportunities. That's what gets people in the door. And I told everyone, your value ladder should be this new opportunity. There's opportunity stacking. The back of the value ladder, there's one section that's saved for people with ambition. New opportunity is all about getting people who have a desire to come in. But people with ambition, and the percentage of your audience is small. The percentage of people who have true ambition, it might be 15 to 20%, maybe. Josh: Yeah. Russell: But those are your most ambition. I told them my Master, I didn't sell you guys new opportunity. Do you want to come to Boise and talk to other entrepreneurs? Or are you going to get better and stronger and smarter, all the ER words? You guys are the ones at the top of the value ladder. You are ambitious. So I'm not selling you new opportunity. I'm selling you guys improvement. And it's the hardest thing to sell, but it's what one tier of your audience wants. I feel like same thing, the people who are listening to your podcasts, these are the people who want improvement. These are the ambitious ones. They're not the tire kickers. And so it's the best way to convert people in their highest ticket backing things as well. Josh: Yeah. And I also think, one thing that's very important to point out, I think here, is the style slash type of podcast that you particularly create. Because I've studied a lot of different podcasts. Joe Rogan obviously is a big inspiration of mine when it just comes to creating content or whatever. But what's interesting is that the type of content that a Joe Rogan creates, or that even a Logan Paul or any of the bigger mainstream podcasts, oftentimes it's much more for entertainment. And Joe Rogan, I think, maybe is the blend between the two. But a lot of podcasts, they're not specifically for solving a very specific problem. And so what I always say about specifically the type of podcast that you create, you or Steve or whatever, your type of podcast is horrible for lead generation, but is amazing for lead education. It's because once they're in there, you have that. And what's interesting is one of the times that I listened to your podcast most... I'm going to let you guess. I'm sure you're not going to get it. But what do you think one of the times I listened to your podcast most? Russell: When you're driving somewhere in your car. Josh: That's a time. Yeah. But it's when I'm in pain. When I have a specific pain around my funnel, I will literally go, "Russell has this podcast. He's got all these episodes. I bet you he's talked about it." And so I'll literally go on my phone and I'll keyword search for different things. And I'll specifically go. There was one time I was listening to, it was something about a webinar or something, and you were talking about how you wrote your headlines and basically how you came up with your framework for it. And I remember you did that one time. And so I was struggling with it, and so I literally searched it and I did it. And so the type of podcast that you create, in my head there's two different ones. There's one for entertainment. And then there's one for education. And you create one specifically for education. And when you do that, that's the type of podcast or that's the type of content that literally goes and educates your member. And when you have that, a hundred percent, my top buyers, anybody that gives me top dollar for my stuff, they all listen to my podcast or have been on my podcast and I'll pull something out of it. They're always the ones that pay the most money. For sure. Russell: For sure. It's interesting too. And there's, as you said, a lot of formats. When I did mine, I did a short form for a couple reasons. Number one is it was my drive to the office, so that's how it started. But number two, I love Joe Rogan and I probably listen to one of his entire podcast ever. Josh: Oh my gosh. I probably listen to a hundred of them at least. Russell: And I get overwhelmed, because each one's four hours long and there's all these different people. Everyone keeps talking recently about the Jewel one. "It's the greatest thing in the world. You've got to listen to it." Four hours. I could get a whole audio book, the entire book done in four hours. Is that worth the investment? I don't ever want to dive into it, because it's so big. Whereas mine, again, someone's in the car and only got a 10 minute commute. Boom. Throw it in. They get an episode. And then what happens is they get hooked, and then they'll listen for four hours. So it's different though, because if Joe Rogan's were broken up into even 20 minute blocks, I would probably listen to all of them. Josh: YouTube Joe Rogan clips. It's Joe Rogan experience clips. And it's literally 20 minute episodes. Russell: Oh cool. Josh: So if you ever want to. Russell: That's probably what I would do. And I think it's interesting. And then also another nice thing about short form is people come in, they listen to one... And I get this all the time. People are like, "I got your podcast, listened to three or four episodes, and I loved it. So I started at the very beginning and I binge-listened to all of them." It happens all the time as well. Whereas Joe Rogan, you're not going to binge-listen because that's 65 years worth of content you're going to go through. Mine, they're short. I'm going to go to the beginning. And they start and they binge listen. And then they've gone through your journey with you. And by the time they show up, they know everything that you've ever said. And they're so much easier to work with if they've got that stuff. I think everyone needs... It's one of the things where you're not going to see a big return or not initially. But over time, if you're consistent with it, it's the best thing. And then obviously, I don't use my platform for this, but you do and I think it's brilliant. It gives you access to all these people. Whereas the interviewing people, you get access to people you can't otherwise. Josh: Doors open that you literally can't even understand simply because you're like, "Hey, I have a podcast and hey, I've got these couple other cool players on here. You want to come?" Alex Hormozi is coming on my podcast. I literally reached out to him, "I have a podcast." And a hundred percent, I'm going to admit something to you right now. I was like, "Hey, I had a podcast, and Russell's been on a couple times. You want to come on?" He's like, "I love Russell. Of course I'll come on your show." Russell: That's awesome. Josh: Crazy big doors that get open simply because you have a platform to be able to allow someone to use their voice as well. Russell: I remember, before Tony and I were super close, we met a couple times and stuff, but I remember he was doing some launch. I remember Lewis Howes and him did a big interview. And three or four people they interview sound so annoying. Why is Tony hanging out with these people and not me? And now all of a sudden, I had the ahas. "Lewis Howes has got a big podcast. Oh my gosh. Okay, I need to be able to offer my platform to him to get in that door and really build that relationship." And that's one of the powers of it too. You have a platform, now you've got ability to access people you can't otherwise. As you know. Josh: All right. Two rapid fire questions here really quick. Because I want to move on to the next topic to keep us on track. But number one, what's the Joe Rogan episode that you listened to all the way through? Do you remember which one it was? Russell: Oh, I do know. Yeah. And I actually hate that I listened this one. It was the Gary Vee one. Josh: Oh. Yeah. Russell: And the reason why I listened, because I want to be on Joe Rogan's podcast someday. And I want to see what Gary talked about because... As you know, Gary and I have a... He probably has idea who I am. Josh: You have a light beef. Russell: We've got an interesting relationship. He's not my... Anyway. I've got to make sure I'm the next internet marketer who actually does a better job. Josh: Okay. Two things on that. One, anybody listening, I'm going to do this, so don't take it, but I'll beat you to it. If you ever can get Russell Brunson on Joe Rogan, that's a great Dream 100 gift right there. That would be amazing. Secondly, I've listened to so many episode of Joe Rogan. One of my favorite ones is actually with Kanye. I know everyone thinks Kanye's an idiot. But if you can, that's five hours. It's insane. It's one of the most intense episodes I've ever listened to. But one that is a must-listen to, seriously one of the best podcast episodes ever done is his first interview with Elon Musk. If you ever get the chance, just sit down and listen to it. It's three or three and a half hours, but understanding that dude's mind, Elon Musk, you will not regret that three hours of your life. It was a fantastic episode. So that's the one. Russell: Very cool. Josh: Okay. Last thing here before we move on, are there any other points that we didn't cover about why someone should have a podcast? Wrap up, make your closing arguments around why somebody should go setup a podcast. Russell: The last one I'll say, and I quote Nathan Barry, actually, in Traffic Secrets. And I'll probably mess up the quote, but it was interesting. He talked about how... I think the title of the blog post I share is, You Got to Publish Long Enough to Get Noticed. And he talks about how for most of us there's so much content out nowadays. There's all these things. It's hard to know what's going to be good. 5,000 podcasts launched today. How many Netflix episodes, all sorts stuff. He says most of us find out about a good show at Season Two or Season Three, because of this, we waited to see, our friends talked about it. All of sudden it gets a breaking point where everyone's talking about it, and then you become this overnight success. It's interesting. He said you have to publish long enough to get noticed. And I think that's the biggest thing to understand. Especially most people who are getting started and they're so scared. "I'm going to look like an idiot." "They're all going to make fun of me." "I'm just a beginner." Blah, blah. All these different excuses. The good news is, at the very beginning, no one's listening. Josh: No one's listening. Russell: It doesn't matter. Just do it. This is your chance to actually find your voice and learn how to speak and tell stories, and all those things. No one's listening. And if you keep doing it, I tell people all the time, if you publish consistently for a year, that doesn't mean once a month for a year, daily for a year, or three, four times, five times a week consistently for year. Two things will happen. Number one, you'll find your voice. Number two, your audience will have a chance and have enough time to actually find you. And so it's going out there and just setting it up, the ROI. And I'm a big ROI. You look at my DiSC profile, my number one value is ROI. If I can't see the return on investment on something, it's hard for me to do. It's why I struggled in school. It's why I struggle in awkward conversations. Because I'm like, "What's the point of this?" I don't get it. Podcasting was hard, because I didn't know what the ROI was. And luckily again, I didn't see the stats for three years. Josh: Is that how long it was? It was three years? Russell: Yeah, before we figured out how to get the stats on it. Josh: That's crazy. Russell: But because of that, because I didn't know what the ROI was, and I was just hoping and praying with faith that it would be good. Now I see the ROI. Now it's important. Now I do it twice a week. Regardless, it happens in the queue, in the can because it's that important. Josh: If your number one thing is ROI and you figured out the podcast is worth it, guys, there's your selling point. Go start a podcast already. Russell: Got a podcast. Let's go. Josh: Honestly, it's amazing. And it's so much fun too. You learn so much about yourself. And I think the one thing I'll say about podcasting is you've got to really find your own unique style. I was listening to, I know you know Alex Becker, but Alex Becker is probably one of the biggest influencers in crypto right now. Just insane. One of my friends who got his NFT, and he's up a quarter million bucks in three months. Just insane stuff. One of the things that he said is right now in the industry, everybody is trying to become an influencer. And so he says, "I see all these people trying to model exactly what it is that I do." And he's like, "I have no problem with you guys doing that because I get it." At the beginning, you don't know your voice yet or whatever, but he's like, "You'll never be me." And I won't use the language that he used. But he's basically like, "There's only one me, so eventually model me, do whatever you need to do. But eventually go find your voice. Go find your own thing, because that's why people are going to watch you. I'm going to make sure that you're irrelevant if you try to model me long term." And so it's giving you that permission to model somebody at the beginning, but then, people are not going to listen to you if they can go listen to somebody else that has the exact same style. So it allows you to really be yourself when you give yourself permission to just try different things. And at the beginning, like you said, no one's listening. Russell: Yeah. It's funny talking about modeling. I talked about this yesterday on a call I was on. It's fascinating because people, they're trying to copy or model somebody because they're trying to get those people to attract the right audience. And Myron said, "You don't attract who you want, you attract who you are." And so if you're trying to be someone else, you're not going to... Because you want those customers. It's going to be weird. I remember when we launched ClickFunnels, I was trying to be like all the other internet marketing guys, because I thought I was competing against Ryan and Perry and Traffic & Conversion. So I was trying to be more corporatey businessy, like they were. Wait a minute. That's not me. I'm not going to wear a shirt and tie on stage. I'm not going to wear a suit jacket. I'm going to wear my t-shirts and jeans. And I'm going to talk about my family and God and wrestling and things I'm excited by. And I don't care about agency, not that I don't care agency, but I don't care about... I'm going to speak to the entrepreneur, because that's who I want. Wherein Ryan and Perry, literally, one of their Traffic & Conversions were, "This is less for the entrepreneur, more for your teams and your staff." It's crazy now because you look at the... I thought we were in the same market, but as soon as I leaned into who Russell was, it's separated. And it's not that one's better or worse. They're different, but if you go to Funnel Hacking Live, it's my people. You're in the audience. Most of these people here are Christians, who are athletes, who've got kids, who are entrepreneurs, who are not doing this for the money, but doing it because they want to change the world. That's the overwhelming percentage of our audience. Not everyone. But as a whole we attract who we are. So lean into that, because otherwise you're going to attract people you don't like, and you're going to hate your life, and you're going to hate your business, you're going to hate your customers. But you put yourself out there, the people who do not resonate with you will leave on their own. You don't have to kick them out. They're be like, "Russell's annoying." I get people all the time, if I mention God on a podcast or anything, they're like, "If you're talking about God, I'm out." Sweet. All right. Bye. I'm good with that. I know people are like, "I don't believe in God, but I respect that you lean into it." They're cool too. But the people who are offended leave and the people who stick are the ones you want to hang out with anyway, because you attract who you are and not who you want to bring in. Josh: And I can talk about that topic super long, but I want to keep moving on the next piece here. Russell: That's it for the first episode then. Here with Josh on the Market Secrets Podcast. We're going to transition to the next one on the next episode.

Strength training is often associated with professional athletes who need to condition their bodies. However, the general public could benefit from it as well. It's not just people who want to bulk up who need strength training, either. Regardless of your age, sex, and occupation, strength training can have massive benefits for your wellness.  In this episode, Russel Jarrett joins us to share some insights from his 30 years of experience in the fitness industry. He talks about what makes an elite athlete and how talent is not the only determinant of success. We also dive deep into the benefits of strength training and optimising your fitness.  If you want to know how strength training can help you function better, then this episode is for you.    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, dramatically decreases over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting-edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost NAD+ levels in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity, rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop Now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500 mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust: NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting-edge science) combats the effects of ageing and is designed to boost NAD+ levels. The NMN capsules are manufactured in an ISO 9001-certified facility. Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Know what propels an athlete towards an elite level.  Learn the various effects of strength training on our bodies. Discover the importance of hormones to our health.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #187: Back to Basics: Slow Down Ageing and Promote Longevity with Dr Elizabeth Yurth #188: How to Increase Your Self-Awareness and Achieve High Performance with Craig Harper Connect with Russell: Website  The Australian Fitness Podcast The Future is Faster Than You Think by Steven Kotler Lifespan by Dr David Sinclair Dr Elizabeth Yurth's online course on longevity Kultured Wellness A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights  [03:10] Russell's Background Russel went into athlete strength and conditioning because he didn't want to teach.  He worked with various athletes in Australia for a long time while still working with the general population.  He has since branched out to several business enterprises related to health and fitness. [06:03] What Makes a Good Athlete Elite athletes have a strong belief in their abilities. They stay confident and driven, regardless of their performance. Some athletes are exceptionally talented and find a way to play at the highest level. Even if you don't have innate talent, you can improve. You just need the right combination of drive, dedication, and perseverance.  [11:22] Observations on Different Sports Athletes adapt their mentality and physicality based on their sport. For instance, footballers have high pain tolerance, while golfers possess intense concentration.     Endurance athletes used to think that strength training would inhibit their ability to do well in their sports.  Now, they're beginning to recognise the importance of incorporating the appropriate strength training for their sport.  Improvement of your form, minimisation of injury, and faster healing time are some benefits of strength training. Our bodies are predisposed towards either endurance or strength training. The key is finding the balance between what you enjoy doing and what your body responds to. [24:30] Strength Training for the General Public Strength training helps to prevent accidents such as broken hips when our body starts to lose muscle mass.  Women tend to avoid strength training because they don't want to bulk up. However, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better it is for your hormones.  Strength training also improves your quality of life and overall lifespan.  If you want a body that works better and feels better, incorporate strength training into your exercise regimen. [32:37] Optimising Your Hormones You're not going to see results from exercise and diet alone. You also have to consider your hormones.  Your motivation also hinges on your hormones, so it's crucial to optimise them first.  Strength training is a natural way to boost hormones, especially for women. The story of Russell's wife is a perfect example that training and nutrition are not the only things at play when it comes to our health. During menopause, his wife suddenly felt unwell and gained weight. Then, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks. Listen to the full episode to know how she did it! [44:13] Bouncing Back From Life's Setbacks Training your body today can allow you to bounce back from health problems down the road. Listen to the full episode to hear about Lisa's amazing neighbour in his 60s who rapidly recovered from his hip operation! Russell had a client in her 40s who completely reinvented her body in three years. Russel's client soon became fit enough to participate in a competition called The Big Red Run.  [46:45] Taking Tiny Steps Towards Change You do not have to do everything today. Making small changes is better than overwhelming yourself.  Decide on a few things that you can commit to doing. Once you implement those changes, you will feel yourself getting better and wanting to improve even more. [52:35] Being Proactive About Your Health Lisa's husband is genetically three times more likely to develop Alzheimer's due to genetics. However, they actively mitigate that risk. Lisa shared a story about a man whose health was in decline at 65 but is now active again at age 75. Listen to the full episode for the details! Russell advocates for self-medication through exercise, nutrition, sunlight, and being outdoors.  Do your due diligence—do your research and take charge of your health.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘[Athletes are] not invincible, but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability.' ‘Good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up.' ‘Strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form.' ‘If you train well and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s and 40s, then your 50s, 60s and 70s will be a whole lot easier.' ‘It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation.' ‘You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical, or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency.' ‘With your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.'   About Russell Russell has 30 years of experience in athlete preparation and training the general population. He has worked with the AFL, AIS, Cricket Australia, WNBL, and ABL. Today, he owns 24/7 fitness facilities and consults with clients from all over Australia.  He is also an educator and a speaker at different institutions. Furthermore, Russell built two registered training organisations and has coached hundreds of trainers over the years. He is a firm believer that physical performance improvement is for everybody.  If you want to reach out to Russell or know more about his work, you check out his website.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can understand the importance of strength training and optimising your fitness. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Now Russell is one of Australia's leading strength and conditioning coaches, owns a number of gyms with his lovely wife Tara, and has also worked with many elite teams from the AFL, from soccer, from golf, to tennis. He's been around a while and done a lot of things. So you're going to really enjoy this conversation on strength and conditioning and how to optimise your fitness.  Before we go over to the show, just want to let you know that we have our BoostCamp live webinar series coming up on the first of September, it starts. It's eight weeks long, we're going to be doing a live seminar every week. You're going to be we're going to be learning everything around levelling up your life, basically. So how to age like a winner, how to reduce your stress, how to deal with all the things that are coming at us, and are overwhelmed today's society. We're going to teach you how to tap into your biology through your neurology. So we're going to be looking at how to optimise your sleep, health fundamentals, nutrition, exercise, all those sorts of good things, as well as things like circadian rhythms.  It's going to be a really good life program, basically. So we hope you can join us over there. If you want to find out more, go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, that's boost with an -st. No, it's not boot camp, it's BoostCamp. We won't be making you do burpees during the webinar, I promise. So make sure you come and join us over there: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  We also have our flagship program running, as usual, our epigenetics. This is all about understanding what your genes are about and how to optimise your life to your specific genes. Now we use it with lots of our runners. We also use it in the corporate sector for teams and leadership teams and building strong companies. We also use it for people who are going through different health crises and wanting to optimise their health fundamentals to help them through. So if you're interested in finding out about that, just go to peakwellness.co.nz. Okay, now over to the show, with Russell Jarrett.  Lisa: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Welcome to the show, Russell. Fantastic to have you! Russell Jarrett: Thanks, Lis. Good to be here.  Lisa: We have a mutual friend who's put us in contact, and we're very, very grateful. We're going to be sharing some good stuff around health, fitness, health optimisation, strength, and conditioning. That's your jam. Now you, Russell, can you give people a bit of background? You've got a hell of a lot of experience in working both with elite athlete teams and different sports, as well as, the general population through your gyms, and your studios, and so on. Can you just give us a bit of a synopsis on your career, if you like?  Russell: Yeah, sure. So it stretches back some 30 years now. I started like many other coaches do. You know, working on the gym floor and understanding what that environment looked like and felt like. Once I finished my physio degree, I decided I didn't necessarily want to teach. I moved into athlete strength and conditioning. That was an area which seemed to really raise my interest. I got involved in that. But back in those days, it was very much a part-time role and a part-time world. There wasn't really professional sporting teams as yet. So I had to then supplement with work in the fitness industry, and with general population.  I've always had one foot in either world, and I've worked with elite athletes in various sports in Australia for a long time. But I've also had my own business enterprises and studios or RTOs, and things like that, that I've used to provide myself with a stable career. Because one thing I have learned in the strength and conditioning world is that it's a great environment to work in. It's exciting. It's high pressure. It's always different. It's challenging. But it's unstable, and it can be volatile. Because as they say it's a results-based industry. So if the results aren't coming, for whatever reason, and that may or may not have something to do with what you do, it might not. But nonetheless, if there's a change in personnel, quite often you're part of that change. Lisa: That's so true. You know that that's what I love. You have to be flexible, adaptable, and being able to sort of go with the flow. When you're an entrepreneur, I mean, on this, similar sort of world, different but similar. You have to make that happen, basically, if you want things, if you want to keep in business, and you have to be good at your job, otherwise, yeah, people aren't going to come back.  I want to go a little bit into your experience with working with elite athletes for starters. Because I think it interests, a lot of my— so my listeners are endurance athletes, not everyone. Everyone's a lot of average, sort of people interested in health optimisation and being the best that they can be. My background is as an ultra-endurance athlete.  What is it that you think sets a good athlete up from a mindset point of view? Before we get into the strength and conditioning side of the equation, which is hugely important, but do you think that there's— like having worked with general population and lots of elite athletes, what is that some of the key differences that you see between the two groups, if you like? Russell: Yeah, look, I think when people start to figure out that they have a talent, or a gift, or an ability that is above and beyond what is considered normal, I think along with that comes a strengthening in their self-belief and their understanding of what they can do. That takes time. But there are still athletes that will, by their own admission, will struggle with their own self-belief and their own levels of doubt, and so forth. They're not invincible but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability. They know what they can do. They know what they're good at. They're obviously passionate about it.  Then I think for the elite athletes, it's just an ongoing evolution of that ability to stay focused, stay driven, stay hungry, and stay confident when perhaps their performances are suggesting otherwise. I think that's, good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up. I think that's probably one of the things I noticed the most. Lisa: Perseverance. Do you think there's a difference between— is the most important thing talent? Or is the most important thing, a never quit attitude and I'm gonna keep fighting a fighting sort of attitude? What do you think's more important? Russell: I think there's a combination there. I think it's different for every person. I think there's definitely athletes that are extremely exceptionally talented: Michael Jordan, NBA, Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Schumacher in F1. These kinds of people are supremely talented. They're just playing on another level. I think for those people, they probably don't suffer the same levels of doubt or stress than others might.  Now, on the same environment, you've got people who are not that talented. So there were people that that played in the same team as Michael Jordan, right? So there was a guy from Australia called Luc Longley, who was one of the pioneers of Australians into the NBA. Luc Longley was a seven-foot centre, who played a couple of seasons with the Chicago Bulls. Now Luc Longley, and he'll tell you this, was in no way shape or form as talented as Michael Jordan. But he still managed to play in the same team, at the same level, and win championships alongside Michael Jordan.  Now, it's not talent that got Luc there. So it's got to be something else. Obviously, he had some talent. But he obviously had incredible desire, hunger, dedication, perseverance. He had some ingredients that he combined with his talent to allow him to play at the highest level. So I think it's different for every athlete. Some athletes do their thing because they're in extremely talented environments. They're just freaks at what they do. Then there's other people that you look at in all sorts of sports, and they don't— Lisa:  —work your ass off.  Russell: Yeah, they don't look that athletic. They don't look amazing. They don't do extraordinary things, but they just keep going and they hang in there. They find a way to play at the highest level. It's quite extraordinary.  Lisa: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly my background, I absolutely had no talent as a runner. Absolutely none. Just for sheer bloody-mindedness got sort of pretty good at it. I think, that's why, for me to ask the question because for me, talent is, if you've got it, then you're bloody lucky. But even if you haven't, if you're one of those people listening that goes, ‘You know, I haven't got any genetic abilities and talents and stuff, but I really want to do it.' Well, don't give up on your dream.  I remember going to Millennium Stadium in Auckland with the Auckland University doing VO2 max testing and all that sort of stuff. They said to me afterwards, like, ‘If you're a young athlete coming to see whether you'll be good at endurance sports, we'd tell you, don't give up your day job. You're actually below average, below average.' Small lung capacity, very low VO2 max. I said, ‘Well, lucky, nobody told me that back then. Because then I wouldn't have gone on to do the stuff that I did.' That's the point now that just because you don't have the talent doesn't mean you can't. You might have to work your way around things, you might have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you. You have to be prepared for that battle. But I think you can.  Okay, so you've worked in the AFL, cricket. What other sort of sports have you worked with? And what do you see as differences between the sport arts as well? Any sort of insights?  Russell: Yeah. I've spent some time in the AFL, with Cricket Australia, I've worked with netballers, basketballers, tennis, and golf. Look, physically, all of those athletes differ because they adapt according to what their sport requires of them. So footballers have exceptionally high levels of fitness capacity, strength, endurance, agility, power. They're very well-developed and well-rounded athletes. Then you've got golfers who essentially are not always very athletic, although the sport is getting better. But they have incredible levels of coordination, incredible levels of concentration, incredible levels of focus. Because that's what their sport requires. So I've been lucky to work in different sports.  Yeah, you're right. I always see these little nuances between different sports and what they bring to the table. Footballers, generally have really high levels of pain tolerance, because to play at that level, it's quite uncomfortable. Whereas golfers have incredible levels of concentration and mental resilience. Because you can stand over a putt, which might be four feet long, but that one shot over four feet might be worth a million dollars.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah.  Russell: So you better make sure that you've got incredible focus, and that your internal dialogue is very calm and very measured. Because if you're standing over that putt worth a million dollars, and you're like, ‘I don't know, if I can do this,' and your heart rate is pounding, you're not in a good position to make that putt.  Lisa: Wow. That's a good insight.  Russell: Yeah, isn't it? Lisa: It is because, I've often looked at golf and thought, ‘Why the hell are they so high pay when you've got some triathlete, or Tour de France winner, it gets, a pittance in comparison.' And you're thinking, the training and the dedication and these dangers and all of that. You think that. So it's interesting to see that there is a different lot of things at play and it's the brain. I mean, I watched Docker last night, I love neuroscience. There was a great one just on Netflix, actually, and it was looking at how the neurons in the nervous system work. It was looking at a boxer and all the stuff that's going on in the brain. It was like, wow, there is different types of coordination, fitness, reaction, emotional control, all of these things play into this game that we are, whatever sport you're into, and into life in general and staying healthy.  One of the things that I found interesting, they were talking about ultramarathon runners having the blood sugar levels of a diabetic and I was just like, ‘Really? Is that why—?' Because I've been monitoring my blood sugar levels over the last couple of years, and I'm going, ‘What the hell! They're extremely high at times.' I'll be doing like an interval training session and fast, evening hours and I was up at nine and a half and I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, I'm diabetic.'  I'm now like, listening to that yesterday, now I'm like, ‘Ah, ultramarathoners trained their body to respond with huge amounts of blood sugars, and they're very insulin sensitive.' So actually, the opposite is actually happening. But if you just took that at face value, you just took that 9.5 measurements on blood glucose, you'd think, ‘Oh, my god, she's got diabetes.' So it's a really interesting world. Or when you're recruiting, you're doing a big, heavy weight, the neurons as what you're training, not just the muscle fibers, isn't it? Russell: Yeah. In fact, with a lot of strength training, and that's what people find, especially people who are new to strength training, they actually develop new levels of strength quite quickly. If you take a beginner, and they've never done weight training before, strength training before, you can actually get them quite strong within two to three weeks. They'll notice a difference in two to three weeks. Now, that's not a physiological adaptation in the muscular system. That is a physiological adaptation in the nervous system. So their nervous system adapts and changes much more rapidly. So that's why you see that rapid increase in strength. Lisa: At the start.  Russell: At the start. That's right. Then after a couple of weeks, the muscular system also changes and starts to catch up. Lisa: Wow. Is that also why you have a little bit of a plateau after your initial gains? And you're like, ‘Ah, this is great, I'm gonna keep improving,' and then you don't. Russell: Exactly. So the nervous system changes rapidly. Then the adaptation to the stimulus of that starts to slow, and then you get more physiological adaptation in the muscular system. So, over time, the process of getting stronger is a combination of those two systems constantly being stimulated and constantly adapting to the changing stimulus.  Lisa: Wow. What sort of changes Is this making our body like from a health and well being and in longevity and anti-aging sort of stuff? I'm heavily into actually, resistance work, weight training, it doesn't have to be heavy, heavy stuff. But you have to be doing weight training as far as I'm concerned. So I'm coming from an endurance athlete background, that's not, that wasn't, certainly wasn't the conversation until our company, we're very big on the strength, we're big on the mobility, we're big on the not overdoing the running, not doing the high mileage models and ignoring the strengths, which is, the world that I sort of grew up in, when I was, learning as a young athlete, ultramarathon running.  There wasn't a guidance for starters. I remember ignoring strength and conditioning completely, and the strength side of it. Now realising, that's actually the base gains, the biggest weight changes, like isn't weight loss, the biggest metabolic changes, the biggest form changes for runners, strength trainers, the stability, the lack of injuries, like all of these things are just huge parts of that puzzle, even for endurance athletes.  Russell: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Going back maybe a couple of decades, strength training and endurance athletes, they didn't really talk to each other. It really wasn't part of the picture. Lisa: Yeah. Detrimental to don't do weights if you're a runner. Russell: You're absolutely right, there was a segment of the endurance world that believe that if you're lifting weights, that you could damage or inhibit your ability to run or do endurance sports. We know better than that now. We know that it is absolutely possible and actually recommended to combine endurance training with the appropriate level and type of strength training to benefit endurance athletes, no doubt.  Lisa: Yeah, it's a great insight.  Russell: When endurance runners, runners or cyclists or triathletes, when they get stronger, provided it's done in the correct fashion, as you say, it actually has benefits to their running technique, to their running form, to the minimisation of injury, to their ability to recover. Everything improves when you're stronger. Lisa: Yeah. And anabolic as opposed to the catabolic nature of our sport, which is tearing stuff down all the time instead of rebuilding. We need— on that point as well, the whole ‘I'm going to bulk up' mentality, it takes quite a lot to actually bulk up and there's different types of strength training to reach different types of goals. And the other aspect I wanted to ask you about like I do genetic testing and epigenetics, and understand the different sort of genetic combinations. If I put someone who is strength-based by genetics, and I put them into super long-distance endurance training, I'm going to be mismatching their genetics.  How that worked out for me in my life was I did ultramarathon running when my genetics are actually built around high-intensity sort of medium weights in shorter episodes, or shorter duration is actually what my genetics want. I decided to do ultramarathoning because I decided to do it. But I didn't know that, actually, from my genetics, it's actually really important to be doing some weight training. It's actually important that I don't overtrain as in the long distance.  Now, my active career time is over. So I've gone now for longevity and things that are more important to me now. I've found that I'm a lot healthier, a lot fitter. My hormones are in better balance because I'm doing what's in line with my personal genetics. It doesn't mean I can't even run an ultramarathon again. I can. But I shouldn't be doing them back to back if I want to live a long time and not break myself.  Do you see that? I mean, you were— without going deep into the embryology and epigenetic side of it, but you got your ectomorphs, your mesomorphs, and your endomorphs as a broad categories. The endomorph population really, really benefit from strength training. Like it's really important. It's counterintuitive, especially for females and the population, because they think they're already bigger, stronger people. And they think that when they go to do weight training, that's going to make them like really massively bulky. What would you say to that? Have you come across that experience at all? Look, I'm in the weeds here. But— Russell: No, you're right. Certainly, people are more predisposed to certain activities, which is essentially what we're saying. So I'm an ectomorph. But my body shape and my body composition is more ectomorphic. I'm quite slight, narrow shoulder. I don't weigh much. But I do still strength train. But what we're saying here is that because I'm not sort of genetically gifted or predisposed towards strength training, it also means that I'm what we call a slow gainer or a non-responder. For me to put muscle on my body, for me to get stronger, I've got to do a lot of hard work and I've got to eat a lot of food. Because it's really hard. My body does not want to get bigger. But if I put a pair of shoes on a winter run, my body is very happy. So you're absolutely right. Now, with females, yes, there are people that are going to respond better to endurance work, and respond better to strength work. But I guess what it comes down to is, how do you then combine that predisposition to what it is that your goals are, to what it is that you enjoy doing, and to what it is that your body responds to? That's the I mean, if I had the answer to that Lisa— Lisa: That's your secret sauce.  Russell: Yeah. If I had the answer to that, Lisa, I'll be making a fortune. Lisa: Well, that's right. That's why I study epigenetics. It's really key or we work with different platforms but then technologies and stuff. But what I get out of it is that gives me the black and white information and then as a coach, then I can help you piece together the right combination. So if I've got someone who's like me or is more suited to shorter, high-intensity CrossFit style workouts for the one a bit of description, and they want to do ultramarathons, then I'll tailor their programs or our company will tailor the programs to fit that so that they can still do their goals but without wrecking their body. And that will be a lower mileage program than what it would be for you if I was training you who is an ectomorph, who can take more of the distance.  I think what's also important to understand is that strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form. Especially as we get older and like when we hit our 40s and we start losing muscle mass naturally like that's what happens. This is where I see lots of runners especially our you know becoming like beef jerky, for lack of a better description, sarcopenic, losing muscle mass, then losing bone mass, and they may be cardiovascularly fit. They're not going to die of diabetes and being overweight, but where they run into troubles is with stress fractures and osteoporosis and lack of muscle. And that can kill you just as quickly as well.  I mean, a lot of people die of osteoporosis and breaking hips. You break a hip when you're above 60 and you're in trouble. That can lead to death. The stats for that is worse than it is for cardiovascular disease. That's just pretty scary when you start unraveling the whole bone. So it's really important for me to have people who aren't just endurance junkies, if you like, understanding, especially once I've hit the 40 and above that they get into that weight training, that they get into some strength training of some sort, at least. Russell: Yeah, with all my general population clients, if they are, if they are above the age of 50, I recommend to all of them strongly that some part, small to significant, but some parts of their weekly exercise routine has to include some form of relatively heavy strength training. Because if you want to look at one form of exercise that can improve your quality and length of life, it's strength training.  Lisa: We're on the same page. Yeah, and that's, you know, me coming from an endurance background saying that. And this is super important for a woman to hear as well, because I think women have a natural tendency, ‘I don't want to get bulky. I don't want to get muscular.' I can tell you now ladies, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better, the better your basal metabolic rate is, your human growth hormone. When you do strength training, you're going to up your levels of human growth hormone, which is going to help with your anti-aging, which is going to keep you younger, which is going to help with all of these different areas of cognitive, as well as physical, as well as sleep as well— every area of life is impacted. If you're doing heavy weight training, you go to sleep better, I'll tell you that much.  It's not just cardio, cardio, cardio, I think is the message that I'm trying to get across here. That's very important. Everybody should be doing a certain amount of cardio. It's absolutely crucial that we sweat, that we get our heart rate up and we do all that stuff. But it's the combination. In every decade where you go through, you basically need a new approach, I'm saying. You know, the ratios. We all need cardio. We all need strength training. We all need mobility as the other part of that conversation, which is your Pilates, yoga, foam rolling, all that sort of good stuff. Then it's the ratios that become different as you age. Then how heavy are you lifting and what body type do you have.  If you're a big, strong endomorphic body type, I can put some heavier weights through your joints, that's going to be good for you. If you're an ectomorph, I'm going to put some lighter weights, but I'm still going to put weights for you.  Russell: I did a podcast with Craig Harper the other few weeks ago, you've been—  Lisa: A couple times. Yeah man, he's awesome.  Russell: I said to Craig, ‘What I say to people all the time, “If you train well, if you train well, and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s, and 40s, then your 50s, 60s, and 70s will be a whole lot easier.”' Lisa: Hell yes. This is gold man. Because the older you get, the more you have to focus on this. And the more you have to train, not volume-wise, but the more you have to focus on this and get that combination right because it becomes more and more important, not less and less important. And what I see when the over 50s, and 60s, and 70-year-olds is that they go, ‘Oh, I'm older now I don't have to do as much.' That's the opposite of what you should be doing. I'm older, therefore I can get away with less therefore I have to do more in the right context. I have, you know, a story. People who listen to my podcast know about my mom's journey. And she had an aneurysm five years ago, and she is at the gym five days a week. This afternoon, we'll be at the gym. We'll be doing weight training, and cardiovascular work, and coordination work, and yoga. Those are all parts of her rehabilitation. Now it's relative to her age; she's 79 years old.  Unfortunately, I didn't know all this back in the day. So I missed the boat in her 40s, and 50s, and 60s. And we've started in her 70s and coming back from a massive rehabilitation project, like, five years in now. God, I wish I had known what I knew then now. Like what I knew, what I know now, I don't, didn't know then because she would be in so much better shape. So now, I have to work that much more strategically in order to keep her where she is and to keep her moving forward into her 80s, and 90s, and hopefully beyond that. It's doable. Russell: Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. The understanding in the general population, in the general community, the understanding of our strength training is still poor. It's getting better because people like you and I are out there banging the drum saying, ‘Get strong. Lift heavy. Do your weights. You're not going to blow up. You're not going to give bulky. It's going to give you nothing other than a better, a better body that works better, moves better, feels better, functions better—' Lisa: —and dies later.  Russell: Exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, we haven't, we probably haven't come up with the anti-aging drug. But I think weight training is pretty close.  Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years, and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. This year another aspect that I've been really deep in the weeds on lately is hormones. A study under Dr Elizabeth Yurth, and she's a longevity doctor and orthopedic surgeon in America, brilliant lady, love her to pieces. I just did one course with her and it was like what to fix first. She was like, ‘I'm not going to tell you to do the right diet or the right exercise program. The very first thing that I'm going to get you to do is optimise your hormones.' Your hormones need to be— if you don't have testosterone and estrogen in the right levels in your body, and human growth hormone, and all the other hormones, and the right combination, and the right thing, then you are not going to be able to exercise.  She said, ‘If I tell someone who's severely overweight in their 60s who hasn't trained before just to go to the gym and start working out and their hormones are in the gutter, they're not going to be able to. They don't have the motivation. Because hormones are related to motivation. They don't have the ability. They don't have the energy, all of these aspects.' So optimising our hormones is a really important piece of a puzzle. I think this is a new conversation that's starting to open up. This is not about whether you know, like, we're not talking about, you know, illegal anabolic what bodybuilders or whatever have traditionally done. This is about optimising your hormones as you age and we start to lose, drop our testosterone, you guys especially in the late 40s, 50s start to really notice a big drop. If we can actually optimise that. That leads you know— like I do hormone consults and stuff. This needs to be done under doctors or people that are specialised in this. But if you can get that right, then you're going to have the energy to go and do the right exercise and you'll be more likely to eat right as well. Because you won't be having this downward spiral because if you get your hormones wrong and you start to feel lethargic, you start to have less energy, less cognitive ability, and, and, and, and, and.  For me I'm actually like, ‘Right, how do we optimise people's—?' Or, ‘Let's have some conversations around this.' Because to date, it's either been, okay woman, maybe hormone replacement therapy. Okay, if they're going through menopause or something like that. For guys, it's only the bodybuilders who have been getting testosterone.  I'll tell you now, men, if they get their testosterone levels checked, and if you can work with a good doctor, and that's a big if, trying to find the right one to work with. And get them optimised for your age and for where you're at so that you're actually— because then you will age a lot slower. But it needs to be done carefully because you go the wrong way and you can end up with cancer. So you need to understand your innate pathways and all that.  Without getting into that conversation, but just getting into the fact that hormones are absolutely crucial. And we can do things to boost our testosterone naturally: weight training. And women, you need testosterone as well. That's where your estrogens come from, for starters. They come from progesterone, to testosterone, to estrogens. And men when you do, so the more weight training you do, and the more, you'll have more human growth hormone and more testosterone available to you. And doing things like sauna and things also huge, huge. Like you do three days of sauna, you're going to have a 1600%, I think it is, increase in human growth hormone for the next couple of days. Russell: You're absolutely spot on. About two years ago— my wife is 51.  Lisa: Wow. She doesn't look it.  Russell: Has always been really good with her diet, really good with her training, always strength trained, always been a strong lady, and fit. About two years ago, started to feel unwell, started to be, kind of a little unmotivated with regards to exercise. But she still kept fighting through it. And she goes, ‘I'm just going through a flat phase.' Anyway, long story short, started putting on a little bit of weight, which was unusual because her diet was very good, her training was very good. In 12 weeks, she put on 12 kilos without explanation.  Lisa: It's menopause.  Russell: Exactly. So got hit fair and square between the eyes by the menopause bus. But she went to three different doctors, and none of them were prepared to explain, or assist, or advise, or refer. They all said to her, ‘You know what, for your age, you're in pretty good shape. I wouldn't worry about it too much.' Lisa: Ah, this makes me so— Russell: Then one guy, one doctor looked at her and said, ‘Oh, you're an attractive lady. What are you worried about?' Lisa: It's not about attractive lady. It's about optimisation. When will the doctors start to understand that it's not about the disease? It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation. That's the change that's going to happen. I can see it coming. Keep going. Russell: She finally, we made some phone calls to some friends. We did some research. She stumbled across an anti-aging doctor in Melbourne who was in his mid-90s and was still practising.  Lisa: That says something about him already.  Russell: Right. And he sat with her for, I guess, an hour and a half. And he explained to her what he did and how long he'd been doing it. And he said, ‘No one will tell you this.' He goes, ‘No regular doctor refers to me or believes in what I do.' He then met her for sort of an extended consult in which she did three blood tests over the space of six hours. He then managed her hormone profiles and prescribed her some medication and some testosterone. She lost, without changing her diet, without changing her exercise, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks.  Lisa: Yup. That's an extremely important story. Russell, I hope the hell that she's sharing that out in the world because I have to get her on and share that in depth. Russell: There's a lot more to that story. That's the brief version.  Lisa: I want the full version. You should get your wife on my show.  Russell: Lisa, it really upset me and it really made me frustrated, as I'm sure you've been through the same process. I've heard your story about your mum. It just made me really upset that our medical profession is so— not all. I don't wanna generalise, but a large percentage of conventional doctors are so far behind. They're so far behind. Lisa: They're so far behind, and this is changing. I mean I'm reading a book at the moment called The Future is Faster than You Think by Steve Kotler. Unbelievable what's going to happen in the healthcare space. The data that's coming, the AI and all this sort of stuff, it's exciting because it's putting the power back into our hands because we'll be able to have the diagnostic tools. At the moment, I'm frustrated and frightened too because this stuff I know about I want to get from my mum or for myself and I can't get them, peptides and all this sort of crazy awesome stuff. I'm a biohacker, I experimenting the hell out of myself.  I've just been, I'm going through menopause. I'm 52, I've gone through menopause. I started on a product called NMN which I'm now importing to New Zealand and I work with a molecular biologist in this area. And this is an anti-aging longevity supplement that Dr David Sinclair, who wrote the book Lifespan, you have to read that book if you haven't. So I've been on that now for seven months— eight months. I've reversed my own menopause. I was already aware. I'm already on TTA. I'm on progesterone. I'm on estrogen. I already am optimising. I understand my genetic risk factors so I'm on all over that because I don't just do this willy-nilly. People, if you want a hormone consult, I can do that. That's what I do now.  I'm the leanest, fittest, I'm not fit in the ultramarathon sense, I couldn't go out and run a 200k race like I used to be able to. But I wasn't fit then. I was fit in that one thing, but I wasn't— I didn't feel athletic. I was overweight. I was puffy. I was hormonal. I was up the walls. My body was in overtraining. Now at 52,  I'm leaner than I've ever been, I'm stronger than I've ever been, and I've got more energy than I used to have.  When I went, you know, the last few years have been pretty rough. I've had a rough life, with mum, losing my dad, and losing my baby, and spit some shit towards their way. And still, you know, like, okay, I've been through the wringer and I've had a few things along the way. But this is why it's so important. Because you're going to get that from life. It's gonna come, sooner or later, you're going to get smashed in the face. The more stronger you can make your body so that it bounces back if you have an injury, or sickness or a virus or whatever, the better.  I mean, I've just been through shingles the last four weeks, which has been bloody awful. But now I'm back, and I'm training, and I'm back into life, and I'm optimising. That's not surprising because the stress levels that I've been through and exposed to are the reasons why my body was hammered. So you can't always avoid these things. These things are still going to happen to you. But if you're strong and resilient, and you've got the right nutrients, and you've got the right training, you will bounce back 100 times faster.  I've got a mate up here who is 60, I think he's 65 years old, and he's a kitesurfer. Legend of a bloke. He's been a waterman. And he's just had a hip operation. Within two days he was out walking. Within three hours of the operation, he was up. And I see him all day, every day. Now he's on the bike. Now he's down there watching the waves. He can't get out there yet, but he's walking every day. Like, that guy's gonna come back and bounce back like nothing because he is fit and he's just raring to go.  That attitude, it doesn't matter that he's 65. He's a kickass athlete. You want to watch them kite surfing, I'm in awe of him. He's out there for three, four hours and the biggest scariest, like stuff I would never touch. I don't know where to start. This guy's just killing it or up our mountain skiing. You don't have to accept that, ‘Oh you're now 50. So it's time for you to settle down and get a bit more sedentary. And you probably put on some weight, and you're— that's just life.' No it isn't! Russell: No, that's right. You're absolutely right. I've got it reminds me of one more little story. I had a lady who sat with me in my office about six years ago. I'll paint you the picture. Early 40s, quite overweight, very unathletic, very inexperienced with exercise, very intimidated by the gym, poor nutrition. Like the classic sedentary person. Anyway, we started talking and I managed to convince her to just gently start something. I made some adjustments with regard to her diet because it was horrendous. She started eating better, drinking less sugary drinks, eating more fruit and vegetables, meats, eating less processed food, started training, then started feeling better, losing weight, started getting more excited by the process. Three years later, she competed in an event in Central Australia called The Big Red Run.  Lisa: Oh, yeah. I've done that. Russell: Yeah. Well, there you go. She covered, what was it, 160 something kilometres in four days.  Lisa: Amazing.  Russell: Just, this was a woman, when she sat with me, she couldn't run. She wouldn't be able to run more than 500 meters without stopping. In three years, she did the Big Red Run. In one day, she had to cover nearly 80 kilometres. Lisa: Yeah, that one kicked my ass. I ended up with a back injury and didn't make it. So I know how hard that one is. Like rain, it's hot— Russell: It's amazing. She literally reinvented her body in three years. Lisa: In her 40s. Not 20s.  Russell: Yeah. In her 40s, yeah.  Lisa: That is just gold. What an incredible story. And even for me, you don't have to— I had a lady on the podcast a couple days ago: Cindy O'Meara, nutritionist. She was teaching me stuff about numbers, and preservatives, and shit. And I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, you know. And that's even like a—' But I didn't have any idea of that level of information and how they feed them on plastic bacteria and put it in our food. I'm like, ‘Wow, this is just horrific.' But she said to me, ‘You don't have to go out and do everything today.' Just decide, ‘This week, okay, I'm going to eat a little bit more organic. This week, I'm going to go and switch out for my, you know, something organic, better chocolate.' If that's what you're into, and you want to eat chocolate, then you don't want to be having the cheap and nasty. Go and find a good one.  You know, so it's just, in other words, taking tiny steps and every day that we make those little wee changes and those little wee steps, don't overwhelm yourself, because then you'll chuck it in. You don't have to be perfect. It doesn't mean you can never ever have an ice cream again. It doesn't mean that. It just means that you're making these incremental changes in your life, and slowly you start to get better. We're all on this continuum of change. And I'd bet you don't need 100% perfect to train, 100% perfect. I have days when I have a ‘F-it day' and you know stuff. Because I've had a bad day and I know I've done it. And then I'm like, ‘Okay, well, you know that this happened. We'll get back on the bandwagon.' Russell: Yeah, yeah, look, you're absolutely right. We're not saying to people that you need to eat like a monk and run marathons like David Goggins, not saying that. We're just saying, as you rightly pointed out, just small adjustments over time, identifying, okay, if you're unfit, if you're not eating well, what are two or three things that you could change today that would not feel like we're making your life incredibly uncomfortable? What are just three things that you could change?  Eventually, you change them. You realise that it wasn't that hard. You realise that you feel better for it. So then you start looking for what else can I do? What else can I change? You know, what else can I optimise? Then over the process of three years, this lady completely changed and completely optimised to the point where you would consider her somewhat of an elite athlete.  Lisa: Wow, this legend.  Russell: Yes. It's a great story. But it just shows you, with dedication, with discipline, consistency, all those words, that they're not necessarily easy or pleasant, but they're irreplaceable, and they're critical.  Lisa: Yeah. And education.  Russell: Yeah. You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency. Lisa: Yeah. And don't over— then the big piece of the puzzle is don't overwhelm yourself. Just take it one step at a time. I'm studying cryptocurrencies at the moment because I can see the writing on the wall. This is what's coming at us is a complete new system, right? And I'm like at the moment, in that phase of like, ‘I don't get any of this.' Like, you must have been talking Latin to me. But I know if I keep reading, if I keep listening, if I keep on, I will start to pick up the terminology. I will start to understand that I know the process of learning.  I know that's how I learn languages. That's how I learn medical stuff. That's how everything I don't understand at the beginning. I don't worry about the confusion. I just let it wash over me. And then my brain starts to create these patterns of recognition. Then I start to get, ‘Hey, I understood what that person says,' and ‘Oh, I'm a little bit clever.' Then you're away and you're off to the races. Because then you start to become curious, then you start to become passionate. Then you're like, well, then it's up to you. Like how far you take that one. And that's how you do it. You don't go, ‘I'm going to sit down here and I'm going to study cryptocurrency for five hours today because that's what I'm studying.' That will blow your mind, you know? But if you just take that little bit. Russell: Absolutely. Lisa and I think as I age, I'm 53. As I age—  Lisa: Same as me.  Russell: Yeah. I'm trying to become more aware of where are my weaknesses, and I don't mean physical. Because my physical— because I've been exercising for 30 years. Physically, I'm in good shape. My blood pressure is fine. My body composition is good. My strength is good. It's all fine. I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Because my, I guess my internal fear is, at what stage in my life will I cognitively start to decline? I know it's probably going to happen. But I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Lisa: You don't need to, it doesn't need to. This is my area, man. Yeah, we'll have the talk offline. Yeah, there are lots of things. Like having brought my mum back from a massive brain damage, like she had hardly any higher function, I do understand what it takes to keep the brain going. You'd be doing a lot— I don't— because you've got a good diet and all that sort of thing, and you're exercising, those are two massive factors for brain function, you're much less likely to get Alzheimer's and so on. And with a bit of sauna and things like that, then you can lower the risk. And then you understand what your genetics and your predispositions, and then you can understand what to do to mitigate it, then you hop and things like that, like the hyperbaric which is the corner of my room, that type of thing, that will keep your brain function going.  We don't— I don't, I don't see Alzheimer's or any of those things. Because I have so many things in my war chest, if you like, with my tools that I can pull out. For example, my husband has a genetic, three times risk of the normal for developing Alzheimer's. So I bought him a sauna. I chuck his back into the hyperbaric. I watch it. I make sure he's getting good fats in his diet. I try to keep the beers down. That's the biggest struggle I've got with that one. He's training, and he's running 100 miles, and he's doing all these good things. So I don't see it even though he has a three times risk, genetically speaking. I can control that risk by a large degree, by the diet, by the exercise by the right interventions. So we're not passive.  When people— I just had another interview with another fellow Australian this morning, Kirsty from Kultured Wellness, lovely lady. And she had a dad that she talked about. He was 65, starting to cognitive decline. She changed his diet to keto, she started getting more exercise, doing all that sort of stuff. Now he's 75 and he's back teaching. And then he's fully functioning again. You don't need— you can't just go to the doctor and they'll give you a magic anti-Alzheimer's pill. There's nothing there yet. They are working on stuff. They've got some things that can slow things down. But don't rely on that. Bet on the lifestyle, and intervention, and this training, and the diet, and all of those sorts of things that you can control and you might not even develop it. Russell: Yeah, well my goal is with my training, exercise and nutrition, is to self-manage my health. Because I just feel that if I can avoid interaction, If I can avoid the need to be a part of the medical system, then I'm okay.  Lisa: I'm desperate to be apart, away from.  Russell: I don't want to have to rely on a doctor, or a hospital, or a treatment, or a drug. I don't want to. I want to self-medicate through exercise, nutrition, reading, learning, being outdoors, sunlight, all of this stuff. I want to self-medicate for as long as I can. Lisa: That's the one. That's the one. If we have an accident we'll be very glad for their brilliant abilities, plastic surgeries. Not saying that they're brilliant, absolutely brilliant. What we're falling down is in the chronic disease management. Russell: Yeah, but I also feel, Lis, that it's my responsibility to manage my own health. I don't— It's not up to the doctors and the nurses. I want them to be looking after truly sick people who are injured, or unwell, or have cancer, or— I don't want to give them like, ‘Don't look after me. I'll do it myself.' If one day, I fall over and break a leg or do something stupid, then I'll need your help. But until then, I'm happy for them to look after people that really need them. And I'll look after me. Lisa: Yeah. And this is, even from a macro perspective, we'll wind it up in a second, but I'm loving this, but the social, you know, from an economic point of view, if they understood that if they were educating people, then there would be less load on the health system. I mean what's coming at the health system, as far as diabetes, when you look at our teenagers and our children who are already obese, who are already pre-diabetic in some cases, who have all sorts of hormonal issues, and what's coming 20 years down the line when they reach their 40s and 50s. Oh, Crikey, we're in for a hard ride, then. From an economic, macro-economic standpoint.  Even in the slight, you know, the latest COVID situation, started again, but why is there not a bigger conversation around boosting your immune system so that if you do happen to get it, that you're at least able to cope? Because people with comorbidities that are least likely to come out the other side, or to come out with some serious— not always, it's a part of it's a genetic thing. But also, let's be proactive again. Let's take your vitamin D on full load. Let's look at the, you know, magnesium and vitamin C's at the school. It's a simple, easy things that we can do to boost our immunity, it's lower stress levels, it's try and do all of it. Then we might, if we are unlucky enough to get hit with it, maybe we'll be able to come out the other side without, you know, dying or having some long-term consequences. Hopefully. Where is that conversation? Russell: Well, sadly, Lis, we're not having that conversation. The simple reason for that, and I don't want to sound sceptical, but it possibly may, there's no money in healthy people. But there's a lot of money, there's a lot of money to be made, when your population is unwell and sick. And unfortunately, we're fighting big, big organisations that make a lot of money when people are unwell. Lisa: Yeah, that's just the truth. When you're on a, even a blood pressure medication or something like that, that you're on for life, that's a hell of a lot better than them giving you something that actually might fix it and you're off it in two weeks' time. That's why there's no money going into antivirals, medications and things because you'll be on it for a couple of weeks, and then it's over. So they can't really make money. Well, they can't make money out of repurposing drugs that are off-patent. You know, get into the bloody weeds on that stuff.  I think what's important for us to do is just to shine a light on the positive things that we have been through and be proactive. And be aware that there are forces at play that are not always got your best interests at heart, not to just accept whatever is dished up to you. Go and do your own research. Go and talk to this. Listen to the scientists. Listen to people who are really educated in the space. That's not me and it's not you. But I listen to the people who are at the top of this game, and then I make my decisions over what I do. We won't always get it right. But make your own mind up and be responsible for your own as best you can. There'll always be a left-field thing. The shingles came out of me even though I'm on all the right things and doing the right things. Because probably I've got too much stress in my life. And I take accountability for that and trying to mitigate that which I'm trying to do. Russell: My summary to all of that is with your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.  Lisa: Always, always. Hey, Russell, you've been absolutely magnificent. I want to have you back on. I'd love to talk to your wife about her journey too at some point because yeah, really excited to meet you to have you on the show. It's been a real honour. Another you know, like-minded person, keep fighting the battle. Right?  Russell: That's it, it's been great. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you, Lisa.  Lisa: And where do people go to if they want to find out more about you, what you do? Russell: The best place to just go to my website where you can understand what I do, what I've done, who I work with, and how you can connect and it's just www.russelljarrett.com.au Lisa: www.russelljarrett.com.au. We'll put that in the show notes people. Check it out and we'll see you on the other side. That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

On today's episode you will hear part 4 of 4 of Russell's interview with Andrew Warner about the Clickfunnels start up story. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the 4th and final installment here of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club, where he's going deep into the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you've enjoyed it so far. You know, throughout this entire interview, it was really fun. He brought my wife onstage and some of my partners onstage, and brought other people who didn't like me at first onstage and kind of shared all these things. I hope all you guys are enjoying it and really enjoying this interview. I hope that this starts making you think about your startup story. Some of you guys are living your startup story right now, and maybe you're depressed or nervous, or scared, or afraid or whatever. And hopefully this gives you motivation to know that I was there too. In fact, I'm still there many times, but it's okay and it's part of the game and part of the process. And someday you'll look back and you'll have someone like Andrew interviewing you about your startup story and you'll be so grateful for the trials and things you're going through now. So with that said, we're going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we'll listen to part 4 of 4 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club. Andrew: And I know a lot of you have asked me what's coming up next and Russell's going to talk about that, how you're going to get to Sales Force level, but why don't I take a couple of questions from someone. Is there anyone who's been sitting here going, “I can't believe Andrew didn't ask that.”? Is there anyone who has something standing out for them? Should we just have them onstage. Unknown person: We got mic's. Andrew: We got mic's from over there, okay. Audience member: Alright, a little bit deeper of a question. What is something, I know you're strong in your faith, family, God, I mean kind of all around, what's something that's really made you who you are? You've mentioned before that made you as a marketer with your dad, you're up late watching an infomercial. But what's something that inherently that could have been experienced, maybe a quote in the back of your mind that's just driven you, it could have been something that your parents taught you when you were young. What is, is there, it's kind of a little bit difficult of a question to look back, there's probably a million things. But what are one or two that really stick out, that make you the person that you are? Russell: I have a million thoughts just racing through my head. The one that just popped in the front, so I'll share that one, hopefully it's good. I remember when I was a kid my dad gave me a job to go clean the car. I went out there and I cleaned the car, I did my best job, I thought. And I came back in and I was like, “Hey dad, it's clean. Can I go play?” I was like, “Come look at it.” So he could let me go out and play. And he was like, “Well, is it good? Are you proud of it?” and I'm like, “I don't know.” And he's like, “Well, are you proud of it.” I was like, “I don't know.” And he's like, “Go work on it until you're proud of it, then come back and let me know.” And I was like, oh man. So I go back out, and I was like, “Am I proud of this?” and I was thinking about it, I guess technically I'm really not that proud of it. So I was like trying to do more things, trying to clean it better, and to the point where I was actually proud of it. And then I came back and I'm like, “Dad, okay the car's clean now.” And he's like, “Are you proud of it.” I'm like, “I am.” And he's like, “Okay, you can go out and play then.” I think for me that was such a big thing because it was just like, that internal “Am I proud of this thing that I'm giving, that I'm putting out there?” and if not, keep doing it until you are. And I don't know, that was one of those little weird dad moments that he probably didn't mean as a teaching opportunity, but definitely has been big for me ever since then. Andrew: Good question. Is there one on this side? While you're finding a person who has a question, Whitney, did you have more to say? You were going to ask more, right? Yeah, can you get the mic over to Whitney, please? She's right over here. I know I didn't ask your full question. Whitney: Hi Russell, how are you? Russell: Awesome, how are you doing? Whitney: Good. So with your business, what is, back to like when you were first starting, I kind of want to know, what's the one thing when your business was really hard, when you were really struggling, what's the one thing that kept you going? Just in the back of your mind. And then I have a second part of that. What would you say was your biggest failure and what was the greatest lesson you learned from it? Russell: That's not an easy question. Andrew: The biggest failure. Russell: Oh man. So the first question was, what was the first one again? Thinking about the biggest failure, I'm trying to…Oh, what kept it going? Andrew: Give me a sec. Are you going through that now? You are, what are you going through right now? Can you stand up and get close to the mic? I can see that this is a meaningful question for a reason. What's going on? Be open. Whitney: I'm just trying with my business, I'm trying to get my message out there. I'm really, I'm just baby parts of Clickfunnels, so I'm just figuring out how to do a funnel still. But my company is called Creating Powerful Women, so I am just trying to teach women how to grow a business while they grow their family at the same time. And I'm doing that right now, because I have 3 little tiny girls. So I'm just like, okay, I'm still trying to figure out this myself and then teach women how to do it at the same time. So it's just, I'm still in that struggle phase. Andrew: Is it partially because you feel like an imposter, how can I tell them what to do? That's what I was saying to you earlier. Whitney: When I don't even know. Yeah. {Crosstalk} Whitney: I feel like I need to have that success level before I can teach women to go out and do it. But the reason when I found you in the hall, and I said, “I want Russell to be vulnerable and tell like the nitty gritty parts of the story.” And those stories are what make people relatable to you, that's kind of where I'm at, as I realize that I grow a bigger following and a bigger audience when I'm more relatable to them, which I realize I don't need to be up at that level to do that. Andrew: I get that. Russell: So my question for you is, have you been working with women? Helping them so far? Tell me a story of someone you've helped. I'm curious. Whitney: So I went through post partum depression a couple of years ago, after I had a baby and a lot of the women I've been reaching out to when I shared those stories, those women have been coming to me saying, “Hey, how do you get through this struggle? I know you've gotten past that, so I want to hear the hard stories that you went through.” So a lot of the people who I've been coaching one on one have been people who have gone through those exact same things  that I have. Russell: Okay when you do that, and you share the stuff with them, and that clicks for them, how does that feel? Whitney: Like I'm fulfilling what I was put on this planet to do. Russell: That's the thing. That's the thing that keeps me going. It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough that I crave that. I'm super introverted, so it's always awkward for people to come to me, but I still love when they come to me and they're like, “Hey, just so you know real quick…..” Like last night, we were in San Francisco, or San Diego, excuse me. Someone came up to me in the hall and I was kind of like, I'm nervous to talk to you but you're going to talk to me. And he said, “Hey, just real quick, you legitimately changed my life, you changed my family.” And started tearing up. And I was just like, I let myself feel that just for a second and then I go back to the awkwardness, but for a second I feel that. And It's just like ahh. That's what it's about you know. I use Voxer for my coaching clients. So every time they Vox me and say something like that, there's a little star button and I star it and it stores them in this huge thing of all the starred ones. So now days I'll go back and I'll listen to that and I'll listen to people like 2 years ago that said something about how something I did effected them, and it's just like, that feeling. Because everything we do in this life is for feeling's right. Everything is just a feeling we're looking for. We eat because we want a feeling. We did this because we, I wanted a feeling. We're doing everything for a feeling. So it's like if I can remember the feelings of the thing I'm trying to get, and I can experience it again, then it, that's what gets me and keeps me going.  And I think that any of us that are lucky enough to have those feelings, a lot of times we forget about them. No, remember that because that's the thing, when it's hard and it's painful and it's dark, it's that feeling that's just like, that's the, you remember that and you let yourself experience it again for a minute. And then for me, that's like, okay, I can get back up and I can go again. Andrew: Great question, I'm glad you asked it. How about one more over there? You know what, yeah, let's give her a big round of applause, please. Audience member: I was actually going to ask a little bit about that vulnerability. I was surprised, I'm big in the SAAS space, I've been to Dream Force, follow a lot of Clickfunnels. It's pretty rare to see a CEO want to put themselves kind of on the roasting side of things. You're from here, from Sandy. I was just kind of surprised, what was it that really compelled you to kind of want to come back and do this in Utah? When I saw your email I thought it was a clickbait scam. Russell: Oh it is, we're selling you something next. Audience member: I really thought I was going to come and it was going to be a video of your face spinning and it was going to be like, “Hi, we're here.” Because I follow Clickfunnels, but it's just really rare, especially being down in Utah county, that was kind of unique that way. Andrew: Wait, one sec. Does Clickfunnels allow me to actually place someone's city in the headline, like I want someone from San Francisco, you could. Oh, alright, I get it. Audience Member: It said like Idaho, we're in the surrounding areas, it's going out to 8000 people, limited seating. So as a marketer I was just like, is this a real thing? You know. So I showed up and I was excited to see you. But why come back to Utah, what does this event mean to you and why want to be vulnerable and kind of open up? I learned a lot about you personally that was great to hear from a business side. Russell: So my beliefs are, and I believe we have the best software company in the world, so I'm going to start with that. But if it's just about the software, then it comes down to who's got what feature. People are moving and shifting and changing because of the features. That's the thing. So Clickfunnels was like, no it has to be more and it has to be a thing. And it's interesting, people who sign up for Clickfunnels, who click on an ad, they come and sign up. That's why John can't do, it doesn't work that way. They sign up for a web, clickfunnels is a website builder for crying out loud. You boil it down, we are a website builder. That is boring. So people don't come for that. They stay for that. That's why they stay, that's why they stay. But they come because of a feeling, and they come because of a connection. I want to be able to take the videos from here because if I can more people who come through my funnels to hear this story, they're going to stick with Clickfunnels because they realize we have a soul. There's a reason behind this, it's not just the software company who's trying to make a bunch of money. We're actually, we have belief behind it. So that's why we do all these things. That's why I still write books. That's why we do videos. That's why we do vlogs. That's why we do this fun stuff, because it builds connection with people, and connection really keeps people staying, even if some other company's got a different feature than we do, or it's cheaper and we're more expensive, or whatever. So that's the big reason why we still do it. And then I thought it would be fun to come down here because I grew up not far from here and it's just kind of a fun thing. We've been working with the Harmon Brothers and we started another project with them and their family owns the Dry Bar Comedy Club, if you guys have ever watched Vid Angel, that's one of their families companies. When Vid Angel had their little hiccups, they shifted all the programming to this, the Dry Bar Comedy Club, so we used to watch all the comedians here. And I was like, this is like the coolest location to do something like this. And one of the other side jokes, I don't know if I shared this with you or if it was just in my head, but Andrew is famous for doing these big scotch nights, and as a Mormon I can't drink scotch. And I was like, what if we did this, but at a Dry Bar, just this funny play off of that? And it all worked out. Andrew: You know, usually at events I do scotch night afterwards and say, ‘Everyone come back to my room.' That's not going to go over very well. But Dave's been to mine. He drinks water and feels comfortable. We have good water for Dave. How about one more, then I want to get into the future. Audience Member: So you always talk about how, like for Clickfunnels you guys took like 6 tries to finally make it work, right. And how most of the time when you guys start something it doesn't work the first time, that's why you have audibles and all those things. So I was wondering as someone that, you know I'm starting and getting that, kind of like that lifts, what is the biggest thing that you see, versus like a flop funnel versus something that kind of takes off and explodes? What's the audible or the change that you normally do that shift or the message change or whatever it is, that makes it finally take off? Russell: Traditionally the difference between a funnel that works and doesn't work, I'd say it's probably 50% offer. Like if the offer's wrong it's not gonna, that's usually the first thing. But then if it's actually a good offer, that people actually want, second then is usually copy. So like what's the hook, those kind of things. And then design is probably 3rd. All that stuff that Theron and those guys didn't like at first. The things that, because it's not like we just made up this stuff, you saw 8000 funnels we tested and tried in the journey of 15 years of this, that now we know what things people convert on. So it's just like looking at stuff that you know is working and modeling it because you this structure works, this kind of thing. But usually when something is broken it's coming back and figuring out, this offer's not right. People didn't want it. And that was the problem with Clickfunnels. The offer, we took 4 or 5 times to get the offer right, and then as soon as the offer is right, you can tell when it's right because people will buy, even if everything else is bad, if your offer is amazing people will give you money for it, you know. So that's definitely the biggest part, and from there it's copy, then design, then all the little things that stress some people out, like me. Andrew: So I've got, we'll come back. I see there are a few people that have more questions; we'll come back to them in a moment, including you. I promise I'll do more. But you did tell me about all the different things you guys are working on now. Of all of them, what one is going to get you the closest to Sales Force level? Russell: That's a good question, there's so many things. So I would say, I'm going to ask you a question is that alright? Have you ever played bigger yet? Played bigger? Playing bigger?  Andrew: No, what do you mean by that? Russell: That's the name of the book right? Play Bigger? Andrew: Oh Playing Bigger, the book. No. Russell: Yes. So that's book's been interesting, if you guys haven't read it, it's one of the biggest ones as a team that we've been reading. But it's all about designing the category and becoming the king of that category. So I feel like we are the king of sales funnels, and that's our category, the thing that's going to be there. And then if you read through the book, the next phases are like, building out the ecosystem that supports you as the category. And the fascinating thing about sales force, if you look at it when, I probably shouldn't say this on video because someday Mark Benioff's going to watch this and be like, “I'll never give you money.” But sales force isn't great software, right. It's this hub that things are tied into, but the reason why they did 13 billion this year, they're trying to get to 20 billion is because they built this ecosystem. The ecosystem is what supports this thing and grows it up, and builds it. And that's like the next phase. So I think for us, it's like we have this, we have funnels which are the key. It's like the CRM for them, it's the central point. But it's then bringing all the ecosystem, it's building up all the things around it, right. Andrew: Letting other people create things on your platform, becoming a platform. Russell: Yes, becoming a true platform. Andrew: can you create a platform when what you want is the all in one solution when you're saying, “you don't have to plug in your chat bot to our software. We're going to be chat bot software.” “You don't have to plug in infusion soft, we've got email marketing in here or mail chimp.” Russell: It depends, because you look at Sales Force is similar too. They have their own things that they either acquire and bring them in, or they build their own, things like that. And I think it's a hybrid of that. I think it's, we allow people to integrate because some people have tools. We will, our goal is to always be the best sales funnel builder on planet earth. We may not be the best email auto responder in the world, we have one and that increases our revenue. And people who love us will use our email auto responder, but there may be some other one that's better. But it's not our big focal point. There may be a chat bot that's got more features and more things, that's not gonna be our focus to make it the best, but we've got one built in to make it. So theer will be, that's kind of our thought, that we will have the things included, so if people want to go all in they can use it. But if they love yours because of these things, they can still bring that and still bring it in. You know, and then as we grow, who knows what the next phase is. Is it acquisitions, finding the best partners? People that most of our members are using, start acquiring companies and bringing them in, internally similar to what Sales Force does, growing the platform. Andrew: Just keep letting people build on your platform and then does that make the platform more valuable, or do you guys get a share of the money that people spend on these external tools? Russell: Both, I think. Stripe for example, Stripe, I think we process 1.7 billion dollars through Stripe. We make over a million bucks a year from Stripe referral fees, for just letting them connect with us. So there's value on both sides because it makes the platform more valuable because people can use it easier, but we also make money that direction as well, and those type of things. Andrew: Okay, what is Actionlytics, Action… Russell: Actionetics. Andrew: Excuse me. Russell: So that was Todd's name. He loved that name. So Actionetics is, it's what we call internally, follow-up funnels. So we have sales funnels, which are page one, page two, page three, page four. Then a follow-up funnel is send this email, send this text message. “Here's the retargeting pixels, here's the thing.” So it's the follow-up funnels. It's all of the communication that's happened after somebody leaves the page with your audience. Andrew: And that's a new product that you guys are creating? Russell: Yeah, it's been, actually we make more revenue from Actionetics than we do from Clickfunnels right now. We've never marketed it outside though. Andrew: I can't get access to it, it asked me for my username and password. I said, I don't have that, so how do I sign up for it? Russell: it's only been in beta. So we opened up at Funnel Hacking Live, people signed up there. And then we kept it down for a year, then we opened it, so two Funnel Hacking Lives we opened it, and then my birthday we opened it. So that's it. But we have, it's over, 12-13 thousand members who have upgraded to that. And then we're probably a couple weeks away from the actual public launch where people will be to get, everyone will be able to get access. Andrew: And already people are spending more money on that than Clickfunnels? Russell: Yeah, because it starts at $300 a month versus $100. So it's the ascension up. So they go from $100 a month to $300 a month and then the new one, it scales with you. Because we're sending emails and Facebook message, it gives us an ability to grow with the platform as well, and not just have a $200 a month limit. Someone might pay $1000 or $5000 depending on how big their lists are. Andrew: You're really good at these upsells, you're really good at these extra features. How do you think about what to add? How do the rest of us think about it, based on what's worked for you? Russell: Okay, that's a great question, and everyone thinks it's a product, the question most people ask is, what price point should my upsells be? It has nothing to do with that. It has 100% to with the logical progression of events for your customer. So when someone comes to you and they buy something, let's just say it's weight loss. So they come to you and they buy a weight loss book right, and let's say it's about how to get abs. So they buy that, the second they put their credit card in and click the button, in their mind that problem has now been solved. I now have six pack abs, the second it's done. And people don't think that. So what people do wrong is the next page is like, “Cool, you bought my abs book. Do you want my abs video series?” it's like, “No, I just solved that problem. I gave you money. It's been solved.” So what we have to think through, for logical upsells is like, “okay, I just got abs, what's the next logical thing I need?” So it's like, “Cool you got abs now, but how would you like biceps? We can work it out. This is my training program to grow here.” For funnels it's like, here's this funnels software, or here's this book teaching you how to build funnels, but after you have a funnel you need traffic. So traffic's the next logical progression. So as soon as someone's bought something, the customer's mind, I believe, that problems been solved. And it's like, what's the new problem that's been opened up, because that problem's been solved. That's the logical… Andrew: I got my email addresses because of Clickfunnels, the next problem I'm probably going to have is what do I send to people? And that's what you're solving. What about this, fill your funnel, it's a new software. Russell: Yeah. Andrew: What is it? Russell: How do you know these things? That is good, you have been digging. So I'm writing my third book right now, it's called Traffic Secrets, and then on the back of it we have software that's called Fill Your Funnel, that matches how we do traffic with the book. So when someone reads the book, you login and the way we do traffic, we focus very heavily on influencers. We call it the Dream 100. So you come in and you login and you're like, “Here's the people in my market. There's Tony Robbins, there's Andrew..” you list all these people and it starts pulling all our data, scraping all their ads, their funnels, everything  and shows you everything that's happening in their companies, so you can reverse engineer it for what you're doing. Andrew: So if I admire what John is doing for you guys, I could put you in the software, you'll show me what you guys are doing, and then I'll be able to scrape it and do it myself. You're nodding. And you're okay with that? John: It's awesome. I'm excited. Russell: Excited. Andrew: Have you been doing that? Is that part of what's worked for you guys at Clickfunnels? John: Yeah, we like to, we call it funnel hacking. We like to look and see what other people are doing. Andrew: So you're actively looking to see what other, man as an interviewer that would be so good for me to understand what people are doing to get traffic to their sites. Alright, so… Russell: We buy everyone's product, everyone's. I bought Drew's like 6 times. Yeah, you're welcome. Just because the process is fascinating to see. Andrew: And then the book. What's the name of the book? Russell: Traffic Secrets. Andrew: Why is everything a secret? What is that? Russell: I don't know. Andrew: No, I feel like you do. I remember I think it was… Russell: It all converts, 100% because it out converts. Andrew: Because the word, “secret” out converts? In everything? Russell: Everything. I used to onstage be like, “The top three myths, the top three strategies, the top three lies, the top three everything” and like “secrets” always out converted everything else, and then it just kind of stuck. Andrew: And then that's the name of this book. I'm looking here to see…yeah, Melanie, she told me when you organized this event you said, “Secret project”. That's it. Russell: If I just tell people what's happening then they like, “Oh cool.” I need to have to build up the anticipation. Andrew: Even within your team? Russell: Especially within the team. Yes. Andrew: Especially. So secret is one big thing. What else do you do? Russell: Secrets, hacks… Andrew: No, within the team. So now you get them interested by saying it's a secret. Russell: So I'll tell them a story, I'll tell them the beginning of a story. I'll be like, “Oh my gosh you guys, I was listening, I was cleaning the wrestling room and I was going through this thing, and I was listening to Andrew and he was doing this campfire chat and it was amazing. And he's telling this whole story, and I have this idea, it's going to be amazing. But I'll tell you guys about it tomorrow.” So what happens now, is they've got a whole night to like marinate on this and be like, “What in the world?” and get all excited. And then when they show up, they're anticipating me telling them, and then when I tell them, then I get the response I want. If I tell them they're like, “Oh cool.” I'm like, no, you missed it. I need that, in fact, I'll share ideas all the time, I'll pitch it out there just to see. I know it's a good idea because Brent will be like, “I got chills.” Dave will start freaking out, and that's when I know, “Okay, that was a good idea.” If they're like, “Oh that's cool.” I'm like, crap. Not doing that one. It's the same thing. Andrew: I've heard one of the reasons that you guys hang out together is one, he's an extrovert and you're an introvert, but the other one is Dave will one up you. Russell: It starts the process. This is the bubble soccer event we did. Initially it was like we're going to have influences, or we were launching the viral video and like we need, let's bring some people into it. And then we were asking how someone could bring big influencers, like “you have to do something crazy. Like get a Ferrari and let them drive over it in a monster truck.” I was like, “That seems extreme.” I was like, “What if we played football on the Boise State Stadium?” And Dave's like, “What if we did bubble soccer? What if we tried to set a Guinness book of world records…” and then next thing we know, we're all Guinness book of world record champion bubble soccer players. It was amazing. Andrew: And that's the thing that I've heard about your office environment. That it's this kind of atmosphere where, see for me, look at me, I've got that New York tension. When I talk to my people and I talk to everyone it's like, “You've gotta do something already.” And you guys like fun, there's a ball pit or whatever in the office. Am I right? You go “we need a, we're gonna create a new office. Let's have a bowling alley in it and a place to shoot.” That's the truth. Russell: It is the truth. It's going to be amazing. Andrew: Does he also tell you, “We need to do something this weekend. Date night, it's a secret.”? Russell: Maybe I need to do more than that, huh. Andrew: Yes, does he use persuasion techniques on you? Russell: It doesn't work on her. Andrew: No. Russell: She's the only person I can't persuade. It's amazing. My powers are useless against my wife. It's unfortunate. Andrew: Do you actually use them, or when it comes to the house you go, “come on, I'm tired already, just…”? Russell: I tried to do something today and she was like, “That was the worst sales pitch ever.” I'm like, “Dang it. Alright, I'll try again.” Andrew: Hey Siri, text my wife “I've got plans for tomorrow night. So good, Russell just told me about it. I'll tell you later. Secret.” Period, send. Russell: That's amazing. Andrew: Wowee. Does anybody know how I can get a babysitter here. {Audience speaking indistinctly} Andrew: They're a little too eager to spend time with my kids. Thank you. Alright, I said I would take a few more questions. I know we're almost out of time here. Who was it, it was someone on the right here that was especially, you looked, uh yeah you, who just pointed behind you. Audience Member: Hi, okay, Russell I've been in your world since about 2016.. Andrew: Hang on a second, who the, I'm sorry to curse, but who the f**k comes to a software event and goes, “I've been in your world.”? This is amazing about you. I'm in San Francisco, there's nobody that goes, “I'm so glad I've been in the hubspot world.” It doesn't work that way. I'm sorry, I had to interrupt. Okay. I've been in your world. He's selling you software, you're in his world. Sorry. Audience member: You have to listen to his podcast, it's a.. Andrew: I've listened to his podcast. It's just him talking. Audience Member: He talks about it, it's a universe. He creates a universe. Andrew: You know what, here's the thing that blew my mind. I thought it was him in a professional studio, I saw him in San Francisco, he's talking into the voice recorder on his phone. Okay, yeah. I gotta feeling that Russell's going to go, at some point, “Religion is just an info product. I think I could do a better job here.” Alright, yeah. Audience Member: okay, I entered the Clickfunnels universe in 2016 and since that time, I came in with a lot of hopes and a lot of, it was just a really exciting experience to have you break down the marketing, you really simplified it right. So I see that, I'm an ambassador for the one comma club challenge right now, and people are coming in with such high hopes and such tremendous faith and trust in you. And I have a friends that I brought into it and everything and they're coming in, just like, they're really staking a lot on how they've persuaded to join your universe. Sorry, universe is the wrong word. But from that, I guess the question is, there's a few things. I think a lot of people are afraid of that type of responsibility in the products that they're delivering, and of course there is a tremendous failure rate of people who don't get what they're persuaded in. So there's a lot of magnification on the two comma club, and the people there that are the successes, but the question that I have is, the responsibility that you feel for that, I feel that you feel the responsibility because you're constantly looking for new ways to simplify, bring in new coaches, bring in the new team, make products and offers that are completely irresistible. Truthfully, I went to Funnel Hacking Live, I'm not spending any money, 20 thousand dollars later. I mean it was truthfully so irresistible, but you've crafted such unique things in an effort to truly serve that client and really get them to the place that they're looking to go. So I'm not sure if the question is coming out, but there's a lot of responsibility that all these bright eyed, bushy tailed you know, wannabe marketers are coming in really truthfully feeling the genuine just truth that you're telling them, but then there's a big crash and burn rate too, which is normal in that space. I'm not sure what the question is. Andrew: Congratulations  to the people in the two comma club, what about the people in the no comma club. What do you feel is a sense of obligation to the people who aren't yet there? What do you feel about that? Russell: Is that the question? Andrew: Is that right? Audience member: I guess the question is, there's two parts, one is the responsibility that other people are feeling, the fear that they're feeling to put something out there because they're afraid of a failure rate. So just like, Whitney over there was talking about, she's got those fears. So there's normal fears that come along with that, so how you deal with that, in that it's not because of lack of delivery on your end, but there's still people who are spending tremendous amounts of money, or small amounts of money that just aren't getting what it is. So it's really about your internal feelings about that topic. Russell: It's a good question. There's a lot of different ways I could answer it. I'm trying to think, for me it's a big reason I do have a con stripe, because I do feel like I have a huge obligation to people who sign up for our stuff. So I'm always thinking, how do we simplify this, how do we simplify it? What's the best way to do it? What's the thing? But that's also what creates innovation right. It creates the ideas, it's that, how do we serve these people better? How do we serve them better? Probably the best analogy, in fact, Brandon over here was working on a video that he sent me last night, that I had a chance to watch, it was really cool. We had Sean Stephenson speak at the second Funnel Hacking Live. Was anyone there for that one? A couple of you guys. Sean Stephenson, if you know him, is the 3 foot giant. He's this little dude in a wheel chair, one of the coolest humans on earth. And he told this story, it was funny because man, I had another emotional connection watching it last night actually, watching it. And he talked about stories like, “How many of you guys here are upset because you got 17 followers on Facebook and you've got 13 likes on your YouTube video, and you're pissed because of all this stuff.” And I think of a lot things that way. “I'm trying this thing, I'm not a millionaire yet, I'm not making any money, blah, blah, blah.” And they're upset about that right. And what Sean said, he's like, “Do you know how they choose who they're going to save when a helicopter is flying into an ocean and there's a boat that's wrecked with all these people. Guess how they choose who they're going to save?” and he said, “What happens is the helicopter drivers, they fly over there and go down to the people, going to save them, and guess who they save, they save the people who are swimming towards you.” He says, “That's how you do it. If you try to save everyone, it will drown you, it'll drown the boat, and everybody dies. But you save the people who are swimming toward you.” And then he came back and said, “Those 17 likes on your video, those are the 17 people who are swimming towards you. You have to understand that.” So for me it's like, we talk about the money because that gets people inspired, but when it all comes down, the really internal belief, no one really cares about the money. They want the feeling of the connection and the help and they want to change the world. They have their thing, and so it's like, we talk about the money because it gets people excited, but I don't know anybody who that's the real reason why they're in business. They're in because they want, they want to help those people that are coming towards them. So you notice when you get deeper into the culture, it's not just money, money, money, money. It's how do you serve, how do you impact, how do you change the world, how can you get your message clearer, how can you do those things? And when you shift from the money to that, then the money starts magically coming. So for me, it's just like how do we get more people thinking that way more often. I don't know if that's the right answer or if that helps at all, but it is definitely something I feel a big obligation for but I also feel like I'm super grateful for the people who are willing, I'm grateful to Don Lepre, spent all that money doing the infomercial on that thing. And I didn't implement it back then, when I was 14, right. I'm grateful to the next guy who re-inspired me and I bought the thing and didn't do anything and then next person and all those things, because eventually it stuck. So for me, it's like I'm going to keep creating offers and keep doing cool things, and trying to inspire people because it might not be the first or the second or the fifth, but eventually if I keep being consistent on my side, it's going to keep getting it and eventually the right people, those who actually have something they want to share, something they actually care about what they're doing will figure out the way. And we're just going to keep trailblazing and trying to do our best to make a path that they can all follow. So that's kind of how I look at it. Andrew: Great question. Let's close it out with one more. Yes. Dave did you find someone, because I just found someone right here. Why don't we do two more then? Since you found one and I found one. What's your name? Sorry, Parker? Parker. Go next. There we go, let's go to Parker next and we'll close it out with him. Parker: Alright, so the biggest question I have for you Russell is, I've seen you guys' amazing group you guys have at Clickfunnels, and every time I go in your guys' office it's nothing but excitement, energy, and not only you don't have to inspire your workers to work for you. They come there excited and hearing your amazing stories that John and Brent had of, they stayed with you for all this time and you pushed them and they pushed you and there's this amazing cycle. I'm curious as far as, because I want to have an amazing group like that one too so I can affect the world the same way that you have, and even do better than you did. And that's a completely admiration thing, that's I don't know. Dave: Cut from the same cloth here. Russell: That's his dad. Dave's son. Andrew: Oh got it. That makes sense. Parker: The question I have for you is, how do you find those people? Is it nothing but like a whittling out process or do you see these characteristics already in the people that you have? Andrew: One sec, how old are you? Parker: I'm 20 years old. Andrew: 20 years old and you admire your dad and the guy that he works with so much that you want to not just be like him, but be more like him? Can you take of my kid tonight? Sorry, that's amazing. Does your dad come home with this energy like this energy like, “We're going to capture the world. This is what we're going to do.” Parker: it is the funniest thing. Oh my gosh. Every way you see him online, social media, whatever the heck it is, it's exactly the same way he is at home. When you see him on the tv talking about like, “Oh this is…” or when you interviewed him. Andrew: I've watched his podcast, I see that thing. {Crosstalk} Parker: you know as much as I do then. Andrew: What did he motivate you to, like to sell as a kid, or to upsell as a kid. Parker: So he would like talk to us like he was a sales person basically, in the aspect of he talks about things as far as, this person did a terrible job at selling. They could have done this, this, this and this.” And we're like 10 years old, I think at the time, I think. I don't know. It's more of a recent change since he joined clickfunnels and he's got this amazing excitement and energy. It's an amazing thing and I wish to have to people like my dad when I become a, when I start to do my own thing. Andrew: It is contagious isn't it? Parker: yeah, it totally is. Andrew: And I've been watching, what's this new Vlog that you've got. It's on Russell, it's on Russell Brunson's YouTube channel right? I'm at the end of it going, “Hell yeah, why am I taking a shower now. I gotta go, I got stuff to do.” Right. These guys are out there taking over San Francisco, that's my city. So I guess you're feeling the same way at home. Now, he's there twice, he suddenly owns a place. So your question was…? Parker: My question was basically, how do you find these amazing people to work, not only for you, but with you and to help you accomplish your dream? Is it whittling out process or it you have innate ability to find people? Russell: So as you were saying that I started thinking, I'm thinking about the partners on our team, who none of them came through like a help wanted site. None of them came through like, Brent went to church with me and he showed up every single week, every single month, he was my home teacher and showed up every single month consistently and we became friends and we did stuff together. John married my cousin. We were on the boat in the middle of the lake and he pitched me on a network marketer opportunity and I was like, I love this guy. And then I pitched him back and we just, and it was amazing. And then Dave, we were at an event like this and we had a signup sheet if you wanted to take the speakers out to dinner and Dave ran back and signed up every single line under mine. So I went to every single meal with him for 3 days. I think it's just, I think a big part of it, I think most entrepreneurs can't build a team because they're waiting to build the team. And I think for me, I didn't know what I was doing so I just started running, and what happens when you're moving forward and motion is happening, people get attracted to that. And some people will come for bad reasons and they'll leave, and I've been taken advantage of multiple times, things like that will happen, but the right people will stick around. But it's all about, it's the motion right. That's what people are attracted to. If something's happening. I don't know what's happening, but I want to be on that train and they start coming. So I think it's taking the initiative of “Okay, I'm going to start running and I have no idea if anyone's going to follow me ever. But If I do this and I keep doing it consistently then people will.” And you know, it's been a consistency thing. I'm 15 years into this business now, 8000 funnels deep. But it's a consistency, and when you do that and you're consistent, then the right people will just start coming into your life. But not waiting for them initially. If I would have waited to build my team initially, we wouldn't have a team. Everyone we met was like in the, as we were having motion, the right people started showing up. Andrew: Alright. Thanks. Speaking of, thank you. How many people here are actually at Clickfunnels, if you work at Clickfunnels. Can you guys stand up if you work at Clickfunnels. There you go. I feel like at the end of this everyone's going to want to go and meet Russell. Everyone's going to want to go and mob him. And he's not that social, number one. Number two, I feel like you're going to pass up these fan-freaking-tastic conversations, I've gotten to know the people who work here a lot really well in preparation for this, I really urge you to see the guys, the people who are wearing these t-shirts. Get to know them. Push them into a corner, understand what's working for them. And really, you're fantastic people, thanks so much for helping me do this. And thank you for having me on here. I really appreciate you being open, being willing to let me take this anywhere. You said, “I understand what Andrew is trying to do. He's trying to figure this out. I'm going to let him run with it and let him make the magic happen.” And I think we made a lot of magic happen. Thanks so much for having me here. Russell: Yeah man, it was amazing. Andrew: Thank you all for coming, I'm looking forward to meeting every one of you. Thanks.

Enjoy part three of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed episodes 1 and 2 of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club where he was telling the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you are enjoying this interview series so far, and I hope also this motivates you guys to go over to the mixergy podcast and subscribe to everything that Andrew does. Like I said, he is my favorite interviewer and I think that what he does is second to none. So I hope that you guys enjoy him as well, and go subscribe to the mixergy podcast. But with that said, I'm going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back we will start into part 3 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview. Andrew: I actually got, I did see, I don't know, I didn't see the video you mentioned, but I did see what it looked like. Here's one of the first versions. He compared it to Clickfunnels, he said, I mean to Lead Pages. He said, “Look at how Lead Pages has their stuff all the way on the left, all the controls.” Oh you can't see it. Oh, let me try it again, let me see if I can bring up the screen because this is just, it's just too good. Hang on a second. I'm just constantly amazed how you're able to draw people to you. So this is the article from Lead Pages, this is the first landing page from Clickfunnels, this is what he created before, this is what you guys did together. This is your editor and h e said, “Look, if you're on Lead Pages, their controls, their editor is all the way on the left and it's just moving the main content to the right, which is not looking right. And I prefer something that looks like this, with a hundred pixels on the left, a hundred pixels…” I go, who knows a hundred pixels, it's like you, what is this? Russell: Dylan is obsessed with that type of stuff, it's amazing. Andrew: Obsessed. And you draw people like that. You draw people like Dave, who is just phenomenal. Dave, the traffic and conversion event that he was just talking about, is that the one that you went to? Dave: The one after that. Andrew: The one after that. Okay, we'll come back to that in a second then. So this became your next version, you brought on a new partner, and then you did a webinar with this guy. Who is this guy? Russell: It's Mike Filsaime, one of my first friends online. It actually wasn't a webinar, it was a live event. He was doing a live event in San Diego and he was like, “You have to come and sell Clickfunnels.” And I was like, “Nobody's buying Clickfunnels.” We had a free trial and like, we couldn't give it away. It was crazy. And he's like, “Well, you're on this website, you're picture is there, you have to come and sell Clickfunnels, and I need you to sell it for at least $1000.” Because the way it works, if you speak at someone's event, you sell something, you split the money 50/50. So he's like, “It needs to be at least $1000.” And I was all bummed out. I didn't want to do it. And the event actually started, but they were streaming it live online, so I was actually sitting at our office in Boise, watching it as I'm putting together my slides to create Clickfunnels, and then flew out to the event. And then we had a booth, and I don't know if I told you this, we had a booth and Lead Pages had a booth right across the little hallway, skinny hallway. And Todd's wife was manning our booth and then Lead Pages was right there, and it was so funny because she was not shy at all about talking about Lead Pages. She's like, “Yeah, we're like Lead Pages except for way better. We can do this and this.” And the other guy is sitting there like, right in front of her as she's telling them everything. And it was..anyway, I digress. It was pretty funny. Andrew: By the way, she's still at it. I saw a video that you guys created, you were talking to her and she goes, “I will be Clickfunnels.” I go wait a minute, you still had that fire, okay. So you were at that event. Russell: So we're at the event and there's probably, I can't remember, 150-200 people maybe in the room. So I got the slides up and Dylan was there and he was like, when we got to the funnels he was going to demo the editor, so I did the whole thing, showed the presentation and we demo'd Clickfunnels and at the end of the thing I sold. And I've been good onstage, but by far, that was the first time in probably 8 years that I'd seen a table rush, where people are stepping over the things, jumping around, trying to get to the back to buy as fast as they could. Andrew: What did you say to get them to want to do that? Russell: We made a really, I mean we gave the presentation, and gave a really good offer at the end. They get a year of Clickfunnels for free, plus they get training, plus they were going to get all these other things for $1000. Andrew: It was $1000 training and a year of Clickfunnels for free, and then they become long term members. And it was also called, Funnel Hackers? Russell: Funnel Hacks, yeah. Andrew: Funnel Hacks. And that's the thing that became like… Russell: The culture. Andrew: This culture, this tribe. It wasn't just they were signing to learn from you, they were becoming funnel hackers. That's it. Russell: I mean, that wasn't planned though. It was like, I was trying to think about a sexy name for the presentation, so I'm like ah, Funnel Hacks. And somebody owned FunnelHacks.com, and I'm like, I'm still doing the presentation that way. And then later we made t-shirts that said, “Funnel Hackers” and then now we got 4 or 5 people have tattooed that to their bodies, it's really weird. But anyway, that's what happened. We did that and we sold it and I remember going to dinner that night with the guys who were there, and Todd and his wife and everything. And we were all excited because we made some money finally. But I was just like, “You guys don't understand, like I've spoken on a lot of stages, and I haven't seen a table rush like that.” And I remember back, there was a guy, he passed away a couple of years ago, his name was Fred Catona. And he was a radio guy. He was the guy who did the radio commercials for, do you guys remember, it's got the guy from Star Trek, what's his name? Audience member: Priceline. Russell: Priceline. He did the Priceline radio commercials and made that guy a billionaire. And he told me when we were doing the radio ads, “This is what's going to happen. We're going to test your ad and if it works, I'm going to call you on the phone and let you know you're rich. Because if it works, it means you're going to be rich.” So I remember going to dinner that night and I told the guys, “Just so you guys know, we're rich.” And they're like, “What do you mean? We made $150,000.” I'm like, “No, no, no. The way people responded to that, I've never seen that in my life. We're rich.” The response rate from that, I've never seen. Andrew: And then you went to webinar after webinar after webinar. Russell: On the flight home that day I'm texting everybody I've ever met. “I got a hot offer, this webinar crushed it. We just closed whatever percent of the room at Filsaime's event. Who wants to do it?” And we started filling up the calendar. Andrew: And the idea was, and you told me you did 2 to 3 some days. And the idea was, they would sell somebody on a course, and then their members would then hear how your software and your funnel hacking technique would help up what they just bought and then they would sign up. You're still excited, I can see it in your face. And then this thing took off. And then you started doing an event for your culture, your community, and this guy spoke, Tony Robbins. Russell: Oh yeah, there's Tony. Andrew: One of the first ones. Was he at the very first one? Russell: No, he came to the third one, was the first one we had him come to. Andrew: Yeah? Why do an event? Why do your own live event? Russell: So we've done events in the past. I know events are good, but I'd sworn off them because the last event we did, I think we sold 3 or 400 tickets and less than 100 people showed up and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “We'll never do events again.” And as soon as this, as soon as Clickfunnels launched and it was growing, everyone's like, “We want to do a meet up. We should do an event.” All the customers kept asking. And against my, I didn't really want to do it, but at the same time I was launching my book, and I had won a Ferrari in this affiliate contest so I was like, “What if we did an event and we had the Ferrari there and we gave it away and then we're…” we had other ideas for giving away other cars and it became this big, exciting thing that eventually turned into an event. And that was the first Funnel Hacking Live event in Vegas, and we had about 600 people at that one that showed up. And that's where it all kind of, it all started. Andrew: And it built how much, how many people are you up to now? Russell: Last year we had 3500 people and we're on track to have about 5000 at this year's event. Andrew: 5000? Yeah. Russell: Those aren't free tickets. Each ticket's $1000, so it's…. Andrew: So how much is that in total revenue? Russell: From the event? Andrew: Yeah. Russell: So ticket sales, last year was $3 ½ million, this year will be over $5. But at the event we sell coaching so last year we made $13 million in coaching sales at the event as well. Andrew: Wow, would you come up here for a second, Dave? Do you guys know Dave? Yeah, everyone knows Dave. You know what's amazing… {Audience catcalls} Andrew: That's amazing. Dave: I don't know who that is. Andrew: A catcall. I saw a video, you guys have this vlog now, a beautifully show vlog. You guys went to sales force's conference, you're looking at the booths and in the video, do you remember what you did as you saw the different booths? Dave: I think that one I went and asked what the prices for each of the booths were. Andrew: Yes, and then you multiplied. And he's like, you're not enjoying the event, you're calculating ahead, how much. “10,000 that's 100,000….” It's like wow, right. You do this all the time? Dave: Yeah. It's a lot of money in an event like that. Andrew: And you think, and if this was not your event, you would be doing the same calculation trying to figure out how much they brought in today. Wowee. Alright when you went to sales force did you calculate how much money they probably did from their event? Dave: We were doing that the whole time, absolutely. Andrew: You saw the building, you had to know… Dave: Oh my gosh. 61 stories. Andrew: Why? Why do you guys want to know that? Why does, how does that… I want to understand your drive as a company and I feel like this is a part of it. Figuring out how much money other people are making, using that for fuel somehow. Tell me. Dave: I think it actually goes back to Russell and his wrestling days. We had the experience of going to Chicago right after that, and super just exhausted. And it was one of those things where he literally landed, we walked down and we're underneath the tarmac and all the sudden Russell goes from just being totally exhausted to a massive state change. Where he's literally right back where he was with his dad and he and his dad are walking that same path to go to, I think it was Nationals. And I saw Dan Usher, who was doing the filming, capturing that moment and it's that type of a thing for Russell. Where all the sudden it's the dream, where as soon as you see it, it can then happen. And Russell's just been amazing at modeling, and again the whole idea as far as just going at a rapid, rapid speed. I mean it's “Ready, fire, aim.” Andrew: It's not you gawking at the sales force, what's the sales force event called? Dave: Dream Force. Andrew: Dream force. It's not you gawking at how well Sales Force's event, Dream Force is doing, it's not you having envy or just curiosity, it's you saying, it's possible. This is us. That's it. Dave: It's totally possible. Andrew: It's totally possible. We could get there. And when you're sizing up the building, you even found out how much the building cost. Who does that? Most people go, “Where's the bathroom?” How much does the building cost? Dave: There's a number. Andrew: It's you saying, “We could maybe have that.” Dave: We can have that, yeah. Andrew: Got it. And so let's go back a little bit. I asked you about Traffic and Conversion because the very first Traffic and Conversion conference you went to, you guys were nobodies. Nobody came and saw you. Dave: We were put out in North 40 pasture, way, way far away. Andrew: And some people would say, “One day I'll get there.” you told Russell, “Today we're going to get there.” Dave: Well Russell wanted, he was speaking and so whenever you're speaking at an event, it's important that you fill a room, like this. And there's nothing worse than having an event and having no one show up. It's just the worst feeling in the world. And so he's like, “All we need, I gotta find some way of getting people into the event. I wish we had like some girls who could just hand out t-shirts or do something.” And I was like, we're in San Diego, that's like my home town. Russell: Dave's like, “How many do you need?” That's all he said. Dave: It's just a number. It comes down to a number. How many do you want? So we ended up having, within an hour or so we had 5 girls there who were more than happy to dance around and give out t-shirts and fill the room. Andrew: and the room was full? Dave: Packed. Andrew: Packed. And why wouldn't you say, “One day, the next time we come to Traffic and Conversion, the tenth time we're going to do it.” Why did it have to be right there? Dave: It's always now.   Andrew: It's always now. Dave: It's always now. Andrew: It's always now. It's never going to be the next funnel, it's never going to be the next product launch. I'm going to do whatever we can right now, and the next one, and the next one. That's it. That's who you are. Dave: That's how it works. Andrew: And now you're a partner in the business. $83 million so far this year, you got a piece of that. Dave: Yes. Do i? Russell: Yeah. Dave: Just checking. Andrew: Do you get to take profits home now? Dave: We do. Andrew: You do, you personally do? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Are you a millionaire? Dave: Things are really good. Andrew: Millionaire good from Clickfunnels? Dave: yes. Andrew: Really? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Wow. And you're another one. I was driving and I said, “What was it about Russell that made you work for him? What was it?” and you said, “I've never seen anyone implement like him.” Give me an example of early days, something that he implemented…you know what, forget that, let's not go back to Russell. As a team, you guys have gotten really good at implementing. Give me an example of one thing that you're just stunned by, we did it, it came out of nowhere, we could have been distracted by funnel software, we could have distracted by the next book, we did this thing, what is it? Dave: You're here on this stage with JP, and this was what 6 weeks ago? Andrew: and this whole thing just came from an idea I heard. You use Voxer. Why do you use Voxer? Russell: I don't know. Andrew: Because you like to talk into it. Russell: Yeah, and you can fast forward, you can listen at 4x speed, you can forward the messages to people really easily, it's awesome. Andrew: and it's just train of thought, boom, here's what I think we're going to…No, it's not that. I heard it's, “I have a secret project…” Russell: “I'll tell you guys about it later.” And they all start freaking out. “Tell us now.” Andrew: “Secret project. I don't know what it, it's going to be exciting.” They don't know what it is, going to be excited. Russell: Do you know how it started, this one? I was cleaning my wrestling room listening to you, and you were, I don't know whose event it was, but you were at the campfire, it sounded like. And you were doing something like this and I was like, I want my own campfire chat to tell our story. And then I was like, “Dave, we should do it.” And now we're here. So thanks for coming to our campfire…. Dave: That's how it happens. Andrew: And that's exciting to this day. Alright, thank you. Give him a big round, thank you so much. You know what, I didn't mean for this to come onstage, but I'm glad that it is. This made you laugh when you accidentally saw it earlier too. Why is this making you laugh? What is it? Russell: So we're not shy about our competitors, even when they're our friends. So one of the companies we're crossing out is his. That's why it's funny. Andrew: It's one of my companies. That's Bot Academy there. It's also a company I invest in, that octopus is ManyChat, I've been a very big angel investor and supporter of theirs. I'm not at all insulted by that, I'm curious about it. You guys come across as such nice, happy-go-lucky guys. Dave asked me if I want water, I said “Dave I can't have you give me any more things. I feel uncomfortable, I'm a New Yorker. Punch me, please.” So he goes, “Okay, one more thing. I'm going to give you socks.” So he gave me socks. Really, but still, you have murder in your eyes sometimes. You're crossing out everybody. This is part of your culture, why? Russell: It comes back, for me its wrestling. When I was wrestling it was not, I don't know, there's different mentalities right. And I did a podcast on this one time and I think I offended some people, so I apologize in advance, but if you're in a band and everyone gets together and you play together and you harmonize, it's beautiful. When you're a wrestler you don't do that. You know, you walk in everyday and you're like, those are the two guys I have to beat to be varsity. And then after you do that, you walk in and you're like, “Okay who are the people I have to beat to be in the region champ, and then the state champ, and then the national champ?” So for me, my entire 15 years of my life, all my focus was like, who's the next person on the rung that I have to beat? And it's studying and learning about them and figuring their moves and figuring out what they're good at, what they're bad at so we can beat them. Then we beat them and go to the next thing, and next thing, and next thing. So it was never negative for me, it was competition. Half the guys were my friends and they were doing the same thing to me, we were doing the same thing to them. I come from a hyper competitive world where that's everything we do. And I feel bad now, because in business, a lot of people we compete against aren't competitive and I forget that sometimes, and some people don't appreciate it. But that's the drive. It's just like, who do we, if I don't have someone to, if there's not someone we're driving towards, there's not a point for me. Andrew: And even if they're, even if I was hurt, “I accept it, I'm sorry you're hurt, Andrew. I still care and love you. We're going to crush you.” That's still there. Russell: And I had someone, so obviously InfusionSoft was one of our people we were targeting for a long, long time and I had a call with Clayton and someone on his team asked me, “Why do you hate Infusion Soft so much?” I was like, “I don't, you don't understand. I don't hate, I love Infusion Soft. I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for Lead Pages, I'm grateful for….” I told them, have you guys seen the Dark Knight, my favorite movie of all time? And it's the part where Batman and the Joker are there and Batman is like, asks the Joker, “Why are you trying to kill me?” And the Joker starts laughing and he's like, “I'm not trying to kill you. The reason I do this is because of you. If I didn't have you, there's no purpose behind it.” So for me it's like, if I don't have someone to compete against, why are we playing the game? So for me, that's why we're always looking… Andrew: It's not enough to say, it's not enough to just say “we're playing the game because we want to help the next entrepreneur, or the next person who's sick and needs to create…” no, it's not. Russell: That's a big part of it, but like, there's something… Andrew: Yeah, but it's not enough, it's gotta be both. Russell: My whole life there's, the competition is what drives me for sure. Andrew: And just like you're wrestling with someone, trying to beat them, but you don't hate them. You're not going to their house and break it down… Russell: Everyone we wrestled, we were friends afterwards. We were on the same Freestyle and Greco teams later in the season, but during, when we're competing, we're competing and everyone's going all at it. Andrew: Everyone's going all at it. That's an interesting way to end it. How much more time do we have? How much more time do we have? I'm going to keep going. Can I get you to come up here John, because I gotta get you to explain something to me? So I told you, I was online the other day, yeah give him a big round. I was online the other day, I don't even know what I clicked, I clicked something and then I saw that Russell's a great webinar person, everyone keeps telling me. Well, alright, I gotta find out how he does it. So I click over, “Alright, just give your email address and you can find out how..” Alright, I'll give my email address to find out how he became such a great webinar presenter. “Just give a credit card. It's only $4.95, so it comes in the mail.” It comes in the mail, that's pretty cool. Nothing comes in the mail anymore. Here's my credit card. It goes, “Alright, it's going to mail it out. Would you also like to learn how to use these slides? $400.” I go, no! I'm done. Russell: Welcome to the funnel. Andrew: Welcome to the funnel. I'm done. But I'm going to put in Evernote a link to this page so I don't lose it so I can come back. I swear. I did it. And this is my receipt for $4.95. Don't you ever feel like, we're beyond this? We're in the software space now, we're competing with Dropbox, we're not competing with Joe Schmoe and his ebook. And you're the guy who sold the, who bought the ad that got me. John: I know. Andrew: I asked you that. Do you ever feel a little embarrassed, “We're still in the info market space.”? John: No, I think it's the essence of what we do, of what Russell does. We love education. We love teaching people. I mean, the software is like the backend, but we're not software people. I mean, we sell software, but we teach people. All these people here and all the people at all of our events, they just want to learn how to do it better. Andrew: I don't believe it. John: Okay. Andrew: I believe in him. I don't believe in you. I believe that for you it's the numbers. Here's why I don't believe it. I'm looking in your eyes and you're like, “I'm giving the script. I'm good, I'm doing the script.” I see it in your eyes, but when I was talking to you earlier, no offense. This is why he does what he does. When I was talking to you earlier, you told me about the numbers, the conversion, how we get you in the sales funnel, how we actually can then modify…That's the exciting part. Don't be insulted by the fact that I said it. Know that we have marketers here, they're going to love you for being open about it. What's going on here? What's going on, keeping you in this space? John: Okay, from my perspective. Okay so, initially it was self liquidation on the front, which is what I was telling you. It was the fact that we were bootstrapped, we didn't have money to just like throw out there. We had to make sure we were earning enough money to cover our ads. And Russell had all the trust in the world in me, I don't know why he did, but he did. And he's just like, “Spend money, and try to make it self-liquidate.” I'm like, “Okay.” So we just had to spend money and hope that we got enough back to keep spending money. Andrew: And self-liquidate means buy an ad today and make sure that we make money from that ad right away and then software. John: Yeah. Andrew: And then you told, and then software's going to pay overtime, that's our legacy, that's our thing. And you told me software sucks for selling. Why? John: Software sucks, yeah. Andrew: Why? Everyone who's in info, everyone's who in education says, “I wish I was a software guy. Software is eating the world, they're getting all the risk back.” I walked through San Francisco; they think anyone who doesn't have software in their veins is a sucker. John: I asked the same thing to myself, you know. I was running ads, I'm like why can't I just run ads straight to the offer? Why do I have go to these info products? I want to get on the soft…. And then I was like, I feel like it's kind of like marriage. Like it's a big thing to say like, “You probably already built websites, but come over, drop everything you're doing and come over here and build websites over here on our thing.” And it's like, that's a hard pull. But “Hey, you want to build webinars? Here's a little thing for $5 to build webinars.” Now you're in our world, now we can talk to you, now you can trust us, now we can get you over there. Andrew: Got it. Okay, and if that's what it takes to get people in your world, you're going to accept it, you're not going to feel too good for that, you're just going to do it and grow it and grow it. John: Yeah. Andrew: What's your ad budget now? See now you're eyes are lighting up. Now I tapped into it. John: We spend about half a million a month. Andrew: half a million a month! John: Yeah. Don't tell the accountant. Andrew: Do you guys pay with a credit card? Do you have a lot of miles? John: Yeah, we do. In fact…. Andrew: You do! How many miles? John: In fact, the accountant came into my office the other day and said, “Next time you buy a ticket, use the miles.” Andrew: Are they with Delta, because I think you guys flew me out with Delta. John: Yeah, American Express is where we're spending all our money. Andrew: Wow. And you're a partner too? John: Yeah. Andrew: Wow, congratulations. John: Thank you. Andrew: I don't know you well enough to ask you if you're a millionaire, I'm just going to say congratulations. Give him a big round. John: Thank you. Andrew: Wow, you know what, I actually was going to ask the videographers to come up here. I wrote their names down, I got the whole thing and I realized I shouldn't interrupt them, because they're shooting video. But I asked them, why are you, they had this career where they were flying all over the world shooting videos for their YouTube channel. I'm sorry, I forgot their name, and I don't want to leave them out. Russell: Dan and Blake. Andrew: They were shooting YouTube videos, they were doing videos for other people. I said, “Why are you now giving it up and just working for Clickfunnels all the time? More importantly, why are you so excited about it?” And they said, “You know, it's the way that we work with Russell.” And I said, do you remember the first time that you invited them out to shoot something? What was it? Russell: It was the very first Funnel Hacking Live we ever had, and probably 2 weeks prior to that, one of our friends had an event and Dan had captured the footage, and he showed me the videos. “Did you check out my Ven Video?” I'm like, “Oh my gosh, that was amazing.” And I said “Who did it?” and he told me. So I emailed Dan and I was like, “Hey, can you come do that for Funnel Hacking Live?” And he's like, “What's Funnel Hacking Live?” So I kind of told him, and he's like, “Sure.” And it was like 2 weeks later and he's like, “What's the direction?” and I was like, “I don't know, just bring the magic man. Whatever you did there, do that here.” And that's kind of been his calling card since. He just comes and does stuff. Andrew: Bring the magic. He wants to have those words painted on the Toronto office you guys are starting. Literally, because he says you say that all the time. And the idea is, I want to understand how you hire. The idea is, “I'm going to find people who do good work, and I'm going to let them do it.” What happens if they wouldn't have done it your way? What happens if it would have gone a different direction? Russell: I see your question, and I'm not perfect. So I'm going to caveat that by, some of the guys on my team know that I'm kind of, especially on the design and funnel stuff, I'm more picky on that, because I'm so into that and I love it. But what I've found is when you hire amazing people like Todd for example, doing Clickfunnels. The times I tried to do Clickfunnels prior, build it was like, me and I'm telling developers, “here's what to do and how to do it.” And like there's always some loss in communication. With Todd, he's like, “I know exactly what I would build because I want this product too.” And then he just built it and he showed me stuff. And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And he's like, “I did this too.” And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And it's so much easier that way. So when you find the right people, it's not you giving them ideas, it's them coming to you with the ideas. And you're like, “that is a good idea. Go do it.” And it just makes, takes all the pressure off your back. So for us, and it's been fun because I look at, man, the last 15 years of all those different websites and the ups and the downs, the best people have always stuck. So we've got 15 years of getting the cream of the crop. It's kind of like, I'm a super hero nerd, but it's like the Avengers, at the end of, when Clickfunnels came about we had this Avenger team of people. And we're like, now we've put in our dues, now it's time to use all of our super powers to do this thing, and it all kind of came together. Andrew: Build it and build it up. And then as you were building it up, you then went to Sales Force. You guys invited me, you said, “Hey Andrew, we're in San Francisco, you're home town. Do you want to come out?” I said, “I'm going to be with the family.” And you said, “Good. Being with the family is better than hanging out with us.” But I still said, “What are you guys doing in San Francisco at Sales Force?” Because sales people don't need landing pages, yet you guys will probably find a way for them to need it. Then I saw this, this is the last video that I've got. There's no audio on it. I want you guys to look at their faces as they're looking up at these buildings, walking through the Sales Force office. Look, they're getting on the motorcycles in the lobby. They're looking all around like, “Oh gee.” Counting the buildings that are Sales Force labeled. Look at that! What are they doing? Not believing that this is even possible. And then just stopping and going, this is dream force. This is your dream. What did you get out of going to sales Force's event and seeing their office? Russell: Honestly, prior to Sales Force, I was kind of going through a weird funk in my business, because it was like, again there was the goals. So it was like, okay, we're going to do a million bucks, and then we did that. And then it's like, let's make 10 million a year. And then 50, and then this year we'll hit a hundred. And like, what's the next goal?  A billion, because a hundred million, 2 hundred million is not that big of a difference. And it was just kind of like, what's the point, what's the purpose? We've grown as big as any company that I know. And then last year, Dave and Ryan had gone out there and they were telling me stories like, “There's 170,000 businesses here.” And they were telling me all these things, and it sounded cool, but I didn't, and they were going crazy. You have to see this so you can believe it. But there's something about the energy about seeing something that makes it real. So this year I was like, I want to go and I want to see Benioff speak. I want to see the thing, the towers, I want to just understand it, because if I understand it, cool. Now we can reverse engineer and figure out how we can do it. So for me it was just like seeing it. I think in anything, any, as entrepreneurs too, if you're people believe that you can do it, you'll do it. If you believe you can lose weight, you'll lose 3eight. If you believe you can grow a company, and I don't feel like I believed that the next level was possible for us until I saw it. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is not ridiculous. Benioff's not, none of these guys are any smarter than any of us. It's just like, they figured out the path. It was like, okay let's look at the path. And then let's look at it and now we can figure out our path. Andrew: And seeing it in person did that for you? Russell: Oh yeah. It makes it tangible, it makes it like, it's like your physiology feels it, versus reading a book about it or hearing about it. It's like you see it and you experience it, and it's like it's tangible. Andrew: I told you, I asked people before they came in here, “What are you looking for?” and a few of them frustrated me because they said, “I just wanted to see Russell. I just want to see the event.” I go, “Give me something I could ask a question about.” But I think they were looking for the same thing that you got out of there. And I know they got it. I'm going to ask them to come up here and ask some questions, and I want to know about the future of Clickfunnels, but first I've got to just acknowledge that, that we are here to just kind of pick up on that energy. That energy that got you to pick yourself back up when anyone else would have said, “I'm a failure of a husband, I can't do this.” Go back. The tension that came from failing and almost going to jail as you said, from failing and succeeding, and failing again. And still, that is inspiring to see. I want to give the whole Clickfunnels family a big round of applause, please everybody.

Enjoy part two of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Alright everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope yesterday you enjoyed part one of the Clickfunnels start up story interview at the Dry Bar Comedy Club with Andrew. I love the way he interviews. I hope you're enjoying it as well. So we are going to dive right into part 2 of 4 from this interview. And again, if you're liking these interviews please, please, please take a snapshot on your phone, post it on Facebook, Instagram or wherever you do your posting and tag me in it and use hashtag marketing secrets so I can see that you're talking about it. I'd appreciate it. With that said, we're going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we'll start in on part 2 of the interview of the Clickfunnels start up story. Andrew: You know what, I've talked to a few of your people because they're so good, that Dave could really be a leader on his own, start his own company, he's got his own online reputation, the whole thing. I keep asking him, “Why do you work for Russell? What is it that lets you be second to Russell who's getting all the attention?” And I've got some answers and would you mind coming up here and in a second I'm going to ask you. No, come back here and I'll just bring you up in a second. Actually, you know what, it looks like you can come pretty fast. I thought that it would be a little bit more, I thought it would be more of a thing to get mics on people. And I realized if Collette can do it…. Okay honestly, dig down deep. Why did you want to stick with him? Brent: Through all that stuff? Andrew: Yeah. Brent: I don't know. My heart was just racing. As he started telling that story, it just makes me sick to my stomach. As you scroll down and look at all those businesses of, for years, every 30 days it was a new business launch, it was crazy. Always why I stuck with him is, you know, Collette mentioned that spirit. He's absolutely different than anybody else I've ever met in my entire life, a friend…. Andrew: Of what? Give me an example. Let's be more specific. Back then, not today, he's got this track record, adoring fans, I asked him to do an interview, everyone wants him on his podcast. Back then when it wasn't going so well. Give me an example that let you know this is a guy who's going to figure it out eventually, and I could possibly go down, watch him go to jail, but I believe that it's going to go up. Brent: Well, at the time when things are crashing, I saw him as the income stopped. And he had started a program that he loves, obviously wrestling, and he brought an Olympic wrestling coach to Boise and he brought all these amazing wrestlers to Boise and he wanted them to be able to train and get to the Olympics, he wanted to help them get there and live their dream. And you know, he was supplementing, at the time the business was paying for these guys to do a little bit of work for us, they weren't doing very much for us. But I saw him out of his own pocket, be paying for these guys. And I knew how hard he wanted to support them. And there was a day when my wife and I, we were struggling because I just, I was concerned about him financially because he was supplementing and trying to keep this business afloat, and we talked about things and I came into the office one day and I asked if I could talk to him and sat down, and kind of spoke in language that I normally don't speak in, I might have dropped a bomb or two. It was, I was so concerned I pretty much told him, I can't keep doing this, I can't keep watching you every month pulling the money that you saved for your family to try keep jobs for other people. I said, I'll leave if that helps you. And the fact that he stuck with people, that was the true character of who he is. Andrew: He kept paying your salary, kept sticking with you, and also constantly launching things. Brent: Absolutely. Andrew: That you've never seen anyone implement like him. Brent: You know some people call it faith or belief. He has this inherit belief that he can truly change people's lives. Andrew: That's it, even when he wasn't fully in control of his own. Alright thanks. Thanks for, give him a big round of applause, thanks for being up here. I feel like this is the thing that helped get you out of trouble and potentially, and getting out of potential jail. What is this business that you created? Russell: So we, during the time of that and this there was time, probably a year and a half-two years that we were trying all sorts of stuff. And again, marginal success on a lot of them, nothing like….and this was the one, we actually, this is before….I've done a lot of webinars and speaking from seminars and stuff like that, but this is right when auto webinars were coming out and Mike Filsaime had just done an auto webinar and a couple of people, and I felt like that was going to be the future thing. So we're like, what do we do the webinar on? We didn't know. And we flew out to Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher's office for two days and picked their brains, went to Rich Schefren's office for a day. And then on the flight home, I'm just like sick to my stomach. I couldn't figure out what's the thing that we could serve people the most right now. And on the flight home I was like, all the internet marketing stuff we do works for internet marketers, but we're way better at like local business. Like if a chiropractor implements like two things it works. Or if a dentist does it. But I was like, I don't want to be the guy going to dentists, but we could be the backbone for that. What if we created an opportunity where people could come in, we train them, and we connect them with the right tools and resources, and then they could go and sell to chiropractors and dentists. And that's what the idea was. We turned it into an offer called Dotcom Secrets Local, it was a thousand dollar offer at the time. Did the auto webinar for it, and it launched and within 90 days it had done over a million dollars, which covered payroll taxes and then got us out of debt to the point now we could stop and dream again, and believe again and try to figure out what we really wanted to do. Andrew: Dotcom Secrets Local to a million dollars within 90 days. And how did you find the people who were going to sign up for this. A lot of us will have landing pages like this, we'll have these funnels. How did you get people in this funnel? Russell: And this was pre-Facebook too, so it wasn't just like go turn Facebook ads on. But you know, one thing that happened over all the years prior to this, I'd met a lot of people and go to a lot of events and get to know everybody. And everyone I met, you know, you meet a lot of people who have lists, they have followings, they have different things like that. I just got to know them really, really well. And in the past I'd promote a lot of their products, they'd promote my products. So we had this one and we did it first to my list, and it did really well. So I then I then called them and I'm like, “Okay, I did this webinar to my list, these are the numbers, it did awesome. Do you want to do it to your list as well?” and they're like, “Oh sure. Sounds like a great offer.” We did that list and it did good for them too. And we told the next person and then, if you have a webinar, it's kind of like the speaking circuit, if you're good at speaking then people will put you all over the place. Same thing, if you have a webinar that converts, then it's easy to get a lot of people to do it. So as soon as that one worked and it converted well, then people lined up and we kept doing it, doing it, and doing it, and it was really quick to get to that spot pretty quick. Andrew: I went on Facebook recently and I saw webinar slides from Russell Brunson, I went to the landing page, Clickfunnels page and I signed up and I'll talk about it maybe later, but I bought it and I know other people did. And I've seen other people say, “Russell's webinar technique is the thing that just works.” I'm wondering how did you figure it out? How did you come across this and how did you build it and make it work? Russell: Yeah, so rewind back probably ten years prior to this, when I was first learning this whole business. I went to my very first internet marketing seminar ever, it was Armand Morin's Big Seminar. Did you ever go to Big Seminar? Anyway, I went to it and I had no idea what to expect. I thought it was going to be like, I showed up with my laptop and I was going to like, I thought we were a bunch of geeks going to do computer stuff. And the first person got onstage and started speaking and at the end of it he sold like a two thousand dollar thing. And I'd never seen this before. I saw people jumping up and running to the back of the room to buy it. And I'm like this little 23 year old kid and I was counting the people in the back of the room, doing the math, you know doing the math and I'm like, that guy made 60 thousand dollars in an hour. And the next guy gets up and does his presentation and I watch this for three days and I was like, I'm super shy and introverted, but that skill is worth learning. If someone can walk on a stage and make 100,000 dollars in an hour, I need to learn how to do that. So I started that. And it was really bad for the first probably 8 or 9 months. I tried to do it. I'd go to places and I just, I couldn't figure it out. And then I started asking the people who were good because you go there and all the speakers kind of talk and hang out, and I'd watch the ones that always had the people in the back of the room. And I'd ask them questions, I'm like, ‘What did I do wrong? I feel like I'm teaching the best stuff possible.' And they're like, ‘That's the problem, it's not about teaching, it's about stories, telling stories and breaking beliefs.” So for about the next two years I was about once a month flying somewhere to speak, and then when I would go I would meet all the speakers and find out what they were doing and I'd watch them and I'd take notes on the different things they were saying and how they were saying it. And then I kept taking my presentation and tweaking it, and tweaking it, and tweaking it. And you know, now 12 years later, I've done so many webinars, it kind of worked. The process works now. Andrew: You are a really good story teller and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do it, and I know you're going to do it even more. What I'm curious about is the belief system that you were saying, breaking people's…what was it that you said? Russell: False beliefs. Andrew: Breaking people's false beliefs. How do you understand what, like as you look at this audience, do you understand what some of our false beliefs are? Russell: If I knew what I was selling I could figure out for sure. Andrew: If you knew what you were selling. Alright we're selling this belief that entrepreneurship does work. And I know we're all going to go through a period like some of the ones that you had where things just aren't' working, other people aren't believing in us, almost failure, what is at that point, the belief system that we have to work on? What do you recognize in people here? Russell: So usually there's three core beliefs that people have. The first is about the opportunity itself right. So like with entrepreneurship, the first belief that people have is could I actually be an entrepreneur? And some people who actually believe that, they're like, I'm in. And that's an easy one. But for those who don't there's a reason and usually it's like, they saw a parent that tried to do it. And the parent tried to be an entrepreneur and wasn't able to and they saw that failure. Or they'd tried it in the past and they failed or whatever it is. So it's showing them that even if you tried in the past and showed different ways, let me tell you a story. And for me, I could show 800 different failures. But eventually you get better and you get better until eventually you have the thing that actually works. So I tell a story to kind of show that, to make them believe that, oh my gosh maybe I just need to try a couple more times. And then the second level of beliefs is like beliefs about themselves like, I'm sure it works for you, Russell or Andrew but not for me because I'm different. It's helping them figure out their false beliefs, and if you can break that, then the third one is like, then they always want to blame somebody else. “I could lose lots of weight but my wife buys lots of cupcakes and candy. So I could do it, but because of that I can't.” So then it's like figuring out how you break the beliefs of the external people that are going to keep them. Andrew: And how would you know what that is? How would you know who the external influencers are, that your potential customers are worried about? Russell: I think for most of us it's because the thing that we're selling is something that, one of our, Nick Barely said “Our mess becomes our message.” For most of us, what we're selling is the thing we struggled with before. So I think back about me as 12 year old Russell, watching Don Lepre, like what would have kept me back? And I would have been like, I can't afford classified ads. Like if you showed me how I can, if you could tell me a story of, oh my gosh I could afford classified ads. Now that belief's gone and now I'm going to go give you money. It's just kind of remembering back to the state that you were in when you were trying to figure this stuff out as well. Andrew: Who was who I met when we were coming in here that said that they were part of Russell's mastermind and I asked how much did you pay and he said, “I'm not telling you.” I can't see who that person was. But I know you got a mastermind, people coming in. I'm wondering how much of it comes from that? working with people directly, seeing them in the group share openly, and then saying, ah, this is what my potential customers are feeling? Russell: 100% At this point especially. People always ask me, “Where do you go, Russell, to learn stuff?” and it's my mastermind, because I bring, all the people come in and they're all in different industries and you see that. You see the road blocks that hold people back, but then they also share the stuff that they're doing and it's like, that's 100% now where I get most of my intell. Because people ask me, “Why, you're a software company, why in the world do you have a mastermind group?” And it's because the reason why our software is good is because we have the mastermind group, where they're all crowd sourcing, they're doing all this stuff and bringing back to us, and then we're able to make shifts and pivots based on that. Andrew: Somehow we just lost Apple, but that's okay. It's back, good. There we go. This is the next thing, Rippln. Russell: I forgot I put that one in there. Andrew: I went back and I watched the YouTube video explaining it. It's a cartoon. I thought it was a professional voice over artist, no it's you. You're really comfortable getting on stage and talking. But basically in that video that you guys can see in the top left of your screen, it's Russell, through this voice over and cartoon explaining, “Look, you guys were around in the early days of Facebook, you told your friends, here's how many friends you would have had, for the sake of numbers, let's say you told 7 people and let's say they told 7 people, and that's how things spread. And the same thing happened with Pinterest and all these other sites. Don't you ever wish that instead of making them rich by telling stuff, you made yourself rich? Well here's how Rippln comes in.” and then you created it. And Rippln was what? Russell: So Rippln was actually one of my friend's ideas, and he is a network marketing guy so he's like, “We're building a network marketing program.” And I'd like dabbled in network marketing, never been involved with it. And he came and was like, “Hey, be part of this.” And I was like, “No.” and then he sold us on the whole pitch of the idea, network marketers are really good at selling you on vision, and I was like, “Okay, that sounds awesome.” And then my role was to write the pitch. So I wrote the pitch, did the voice over, did the video, and then we launched it and we had in six weeks, it was like 1.5 million people signed up for Rippln, and I thought it was like, “This is the thing, I'm done.” My down line was like half of the company. And I was like, when this thing goes live, it's going to be amazing. And then the tech side of it, what we're promising people in this video that the main developer ended up dying and he had all the code. So they had to restart building it in the middle of this thing. And it was like thing after thing and by the time it finally got done, everyone had lost interest. It was like 8 months later, and I think the biggest check I got was like $47 for the whole thing. And I was just like, I spent like 6 months of my life. It was like a penny a day. It was horrible. Andrew: I'm just wondering whether I should ask this or not. Russell: Go for it. Andrew: So I stopped asking about religion, but I get the sense that you believe that there's a spiritual element here that keeps you from seeing, my down line is growing, the whole thing is working. Is any of this, does it feel divinely inspired to you? Be honest. Russell: Business or…? Andrew: Business, life, success, things working out, so much so that when you're at your lowest, you feel like there's some divine guidance, some divine hand that says, “Russell, it's going to work out. Russell, I don't know if I got you, but I know you got this. Go do it.” I feel that from you and I… Russell: I 100% believe that. Andrew: You do? Russell: Every bit of it. I believe that God gives us talents and gifts and abilities and then watches what we do with it. And if we do good then he increases our capacity to do more. And if we do good with it, increases our capacity… Andrew: if you earn it? If you do good, if you use what God gives you, then you get more. So you think that that is your duty to do that and if you don't do more, if you don't pick yourself up after Rippln, you've let down God. Do you believe that? Is that it? Or that you haven't lived up to… Russell: Yeah, I don't think I feel that I've let down God, but I definitely feel like I haven't lived up to my potential, you know. But also I feel like a lot of stuff, as I was putting together that document, all the pages, it's interesting because each one of them, looking in hindsight, each built upon the next thing and the next thing. And there's twice we tried to build Clickfunnels and each one was like the next level, and each one was a stepping stone. Like Rippln, if I wouldn't have done Rippln, that was my very first viral video we ever created. I learned how to pitch things and when we did the Clickfunnels initial sales video, because I had done this one, I knew how to do this one. So for me, it's less of like I let down God, as much as like, it's just like the piece, what are you going to do with this? Are you going to do something with it? It doesn't mean it's going to be successful, but it means, if you do well with this, then we're going to increase your capacity for the next step, and the next thing. But we definitely, especially in times at the office, we talk about this a lot. We definitely feel that what we do is a spiritual mission. Andrew: You do? Russell: 100% yeah. I don't think that it's just like, we're lucky. I think the way that the people have come, the partnerships, how it was created is super inspired. Andrew: You know what, a lot of us are selling things that are software, PDF guide, this, that, it's really hard to find the bigger mission in it. You're finding the bigger mission in Funnels. What is that bigger mission? Really, how do you connect with it? Because you're right, if you can find that bigger meaning then the work becomes more meaningful and you're working with become, it's more exciting to work with them, more meaningful to do it. How did you find it in funnels? What is the meaning? Russell: So for us, and I'm thinking about members in my inner circle, so right now as of today I think we had 68,000 members in Clickfunnels, which is the big number we all brag about. But for me, that's 68,000 entrepreneurs, each one has a gift. So I think about, one member I'll mention his name's Chris Wark, he runs chrisbeatcancer.com and Chris was someone who came down with cancer and was given a death sentence, and instead of going through chemo therapy he decided, ‘I'm going to see if I can heal myself.” And he did. Cleared himself of cancer. And then instead of just being like, ‘cool, I'm going to go back into work.' He was like, ‘Man I need to help other people.' So he started a blog and started doing some things, and now he's got this thing where he's helped thousands and thousands of people to naturally cure themselves of cancer. And that's one of our 68,000 people. Andrew: See, you're focusing on him where I think a lot of us would focus on, here's one person who's just a smarmy marketer, and here's who's creating….but you don't. That's not who you are. Look, I see it in your eyes and you're shaking your head. That's not it at all, it's not even a put on. Russell: It's funny because for me it's like, I understand because I get it all the time from people all the time, “Oh he's this slimy marketer.” The first time people meet me, all the time, the first time their introduced, that's a lot of times the first impression. And they get closer and they feel the heart and it's just like, “oh my gosh, I had you wrong.” I get that all the time from people. Andrew: Brian, sorry Ryan and Brad, are either of them here? Would one of you come up here? Yeah, come on up. Because they felt that way, right? Russell: I don't know about them. I know who you're thinking about. Audience member: I think it's Theron. {Crosstalk} Andrew: No, no stay up here, as long as you're here. Theron come on up. Audience member: If it wasn't me, then I'm going to sit back in the seats. Andrew: Are you nervous? Audience member: A little bit. Is there another Ryan and Brad? Russell: Different story, another story. Do you want to come up? Theron had no idea we were bringing him onstage. Andrew: Come on over here. Let's stand in the center so we can get you on camera. Does this help? Russell: Do you want me to introduce Theron real quick? Andrew: Yeah, please. Russell: So Theron is one of the Harmon Brothers, they're the ones who did the viral video for us. Andrew: I heard that you felt that he was a scam. What was the situation and how did you honestly feel? Theron: I don't know that it…well… Russell: Be honest. Theron: I know, I don't think that I felt that Clickfunnels itself was a scam, Russell: Just Russell. Theron: But that it just felt like so many of the ways that the funnels were built and the types of language they were using, it felt like it was that side of the internet. So I became very, well basically we were kind of in a desperate situation, where we had a video that had not performed and not worked out the way we wanted it to work out. Andrew: The video that you created for Russell? Theron: No, another client. Andrew: Another client, okay. Theron: And so our CEO had used Clickfunnels product to help drive, I think it was attendance to a big video event. And so he had some familiarity with the product, so he goes to Russell and at the same time Russell's like, “I'm a big fan of you guys.” So he's coming to us and these things are happening. Yeah, it was almost the same day. So we're thinking like this and we're like, “Well, they seem to really know how to drive traffic, to really know how to drive conversion. And we feellike we know how to drive conversion as well, but for some reason we missed it on this one.” So we're like, “Well, let's do a deal.” Andrew: What do you mean missed it? Okay, go ahead, go through to the end. Theron: We were failing our client. We were failing on our client. We weren't giving them and ROI. So we said, let's do a deal with Russell and we'll have our internal team compete with his team, and we're humble enough to say we're failing our client. We want our client to succeed, let's bring in their team and see if they can make a funnel that can bring down the cost for acquisition, bring up the return on investment for our client, and they were able to do it.  And then we said, what we'll do is we'll write a script, we'll take you through our script writing process, but we don't want to do the video because we don't want to be affiliated with you. Russell: The contract said, “You can't tell anyone ever that the Harmon Brothers wrote the script for you.” Andrew: Wow, because you didn't want to be associated with something that you thought was a little too scammy for… Theron: Yeah, we just didn't want our brand kind of brought down to their brand, which is super arrogant and really wrong headed. And in any case, so we go into this script writing training, and I wasn't following his podcast, I wasn't listening to enough. I mean, read Dotcom Secrets, those kinds of things are like, well, there's some really valuable stuff there, this is really interesting. A nd then as we got to know each other and really start to connect, like you said, heart to heart. And to feel what he's really about, and the types of team, the people that he surrounds himself with, I was like, wow, these are really, really good people. And they have a mission here that they feel, just like we feel that about our own group. And in any case, by the end of that 2 day retreat we're like, all off in private saying, “First of all we like what we've written and second of all, we'd really like to work with these guys and I think we're plenty happy being connected to them and associated with them.” So it's been a ride and a blessing ever since. Russell: We're about to start video number two with them. Andrew: You what? Russell: We're about to start video number two with them right now. Theron: Anyway, we love them. Andrew: Alright, give him a big round, yeah. Thanks. This was pivotal for you guys. Lead Pages, there's an article about how Lead Pages raised $5 million, and you saw that and you thought… Russell: Well, what happened was Todd, so Todd's the cofounder of Clickfunnels, and he was working with us at the time and he would fly to Boise about once a quarter and we'd work on the next project, the new idea. And that morning he woke up and he saw that, and then he forwarded me the article. And he's Atlanta, so it's east coast, so I'm still in bed. And he's got a 4 hour flight to Boise and he's just getting angry, because Todd is, Todd's like a genius. He literally, when he landed in Boise and he saw me and he's like, “We can build Lead Pages tonight. I will clone, I will beat it. We're going to launch this, this week while we're here.” He's that good of a developer. He, I've never seen someone code as fast and as good as him. He's amazing. So he comes in, he's mad because he's like, “This is the stupidest site in the world. We could literally clone this. Let's just do it.” And I'm like, “Yes, let's clone it.” And we're all excited and then he's like, “Do you want me to add any other features while I'm doing it.” And I'm like, ‘Oh, yes. We should do this, and we should do this.” And then the scope creep from the marketer comes, and we ended up spending an entire week in front of a whiteboard mapping out all my dreams, “If we could do this and this and what kind of shopping cart, and we could do upsells, and what if we could actually move things on the page instead of just having it sit there. And what if…” and Todd's just taking notes and everything. And then he's like, “Okay, I think I could do this.” And he told me though, “If I do this, I don't want to do this as an employee. I want to do this as a partner.” And at first I was like, ugh, because I didn't want to do the partnership thing. And then the best decision I've ever made in my life, outside of marrying my wife was saying yes to Todd. Said, “Let's do it.” And then he flew home and built Clickfunnels. Andrew: Wow. And this is after trying software so much. I have screenshots of all the different, it's not even worth going into it, of all the different products you created, there was one about, it was digital repo, right? Russell: That was a good idea. Andrew: Digital Repo, man. What was…. Russell: So I used to sell ebooks and stuff, and people would steal it and email it to their friends and I'd get angry. Andrew: Can I read this? How to protect every type of lowlife and other form of human scum from cheating you from the profits you should be making by hijacking, stealing, and illegally prostituting….your online digital products. Russell: Theron, why did you think we were…..Just kidding. So no, it was this really cool product where you take an ebook and it would protect it, and if somebody gave it to their friend, you could push a button and it would take back access. It was like the coolest thing in the world, we thought. Andrew: And there was software that was going to attach your ad to any other software that was out there. There was software that was going to, what are some of the other ones? It's going to hit me later on. But we're talking about a dozen different pieces of software, a dozen different attempts at software. What's one? I thought somebody remembered one of them. They're just the kind of stuff you'd never think of. There was one that was kind of like Clickfunnels, an early version of Clickfunnels for landing pages. Why did you want to get into software when you were teaching, creating membership sites? What was software, what was drawing you to it? Russell: I think honestly, when I first learned this internet marketing game, the first mentor I had, the first person I saw was a guy name Armand Morin and Armand had all these little software products. Ecover generator, sales letter generator, everything generator, so that's what I kept seeing. I was like, I need to create software because he made software. In fact, I even shifted my major from, I can't remember what it was before, to computer information systems, because I was like, I'm going to learn how to code, because I couldn't afford programmers. And then that's just kind of what I'd seen. And then I was trying to think of ideas for software. And every time I would get stuck, instead of trying to find something to do, I'd be like let me just, let me just hire a guy to go build that, and then I can sell it somebody else as well. So that's kind of how it started. Andrew: And it was a lot of different tools, a lot of different attempts, and then this one was the one that you went with. I think this is an early version of the home page, basically saying, “Coming soon, sign up.” The first one didn't work out. And then you saw someone else on a forum who had a version that was better. What was his name? This is I think Dylan Jones. Russell: Oh you're talking about the editor, yes. Okay, so the story was, Todd built the first version of Clickfunnels and Dylan who became one of our cofounders, I'd been working with Dylan as a designer for about 6 years prior. And he his hands, and we talked about this earlier, he is the best designer I've ever seen in my life, he is amazing. He would, but he's also, this is the pros and cons of Dylan. He, I've talked about this onstage at Funnel Hacking Live, so I have no problem saying this. He would agree. But I would give him a project, and I couldn't hear, he wouldn't respond back to me, and I wouldn't hear from him for 2 or 3 months, and then one day in the middle of the night he messaged me, “Hey, rent's due tomorrow. Do you have any projects for me?” and I'd be so mad at him, and I look back at every project we'd done in the last 3 or 4 months that other designers had done, and I'd just resend him all the lists, just boom, give him 12 sites and I'd go to bed. I'd wake up 5 or 6 hours later and all of them were done, perfectly, amazing, some of the best designs ever, and then he'd send me a bill for whatever, and then I'd send him money and he'd disappear again for like 5 months. And I could never get a hold of him. I'd be like, “I need you to tweak something.” And he was just gone. And that was my pattern for 6 years with him. And then fast forward to when Todd and I were building Clickfunnels, we were at Traffic Conversion and we were up in the hotel room at like 3 in the morning trying to, we were on dribble.com trying to find a UI designer to help us, and we couldn't get a hold of all these people, and all the sudden on Skype Dylan popped in, I saw his thing pop up. I was like, “Todd, Dylan just showed up.” And he's like, “Do you think he needs some money?” I'm like, “I guarantee he needs money.” So I'm like, “Hey man!” And Dylan messaged back. He's like, “Hey.” I'm like, “Do you need some money?” and he's like, “Yeah, you got any projects?” I'm like, “Yes, I do.” I'm like, “We built this cool thing, it's called Clickfunnels, but the UI is horrible and the editor is horrible and there's any way we could hire you for a week to fly to Boise and just do all the UI for every single page of the app?” and he kind of said no at first because, “I'm developing my own website builder. I might have spent 6 years on it, so I can't do it.” Andrew: It was this, he had something that was essentially Clickfunnels, right? Russell: No, no. It was just pages though, so it'd just do pages, there was no funnels. Andrew: Right, closer to Lead Pages. Russell: Lead Pages, but amazing. You could move things around. But he did tell me that, “I'm working on something.” So eventually we got him to come, flew to Boise, spent a week, did all of our UI, and then we went and launched our beta to my list. So we launched the beta, got some signups, and then a week before the launch, launch was supposed to happen, all the affiliates were lined up, everything was supposed to happen. He sends me, I don't know if he sent you the video, but he sends me this little video that's like a 30 second video of him demoing the editor he'd built. And I probably watched that video, I don't know, at least a hundred times. And I was just sick to my stomach because I was like, “I hate Clickfunnels right now. I can't move things on my pages, I can't do anything.” I was just, and I sent it to Todd and then I didn't hear from him for like an hour, and he messaged me back and he's like, “I'm pissed.” I'm like, “Me too.” And I'm like, “What do we do?” and I was like, “We have to have his editor or I don't even want to sell this thing.” And I called Dylan and I'm like, “Would you be willing to sell?” and he's like, “No, I'm selling it and we're going to sell it for $100.” It was like $100 this one time for this editor that designed all the websites. I was like, “Dude, it is worth so much more than that. Please?” and we spent all night going back and forth negotiating. And finally, we came to like, “I will give you this editor if I can be a cofounder and be a partner.” And Todd and I sat there, brainstorming and figured out if we could do it and finally said yes. And then him and Dylan and Todd flew back to Boise and for the next week just sat in a room with a whole bunch of caffeine and figured out how to smush Dylan's editor into Clickfunnels to get the editor to be the editor that you guys know today.

Enjoy part one of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Good morning everybody, this is Russell Brunson. I want to welcome you back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. And you guys are in for a very special treat over the next four episodes. So let me give you some context on what's going to happen, and why you should be so excited. Alright so, my favorite podcast, other than mine of course, that all of you guys should be subscribed to is called Mixergy. Andrew Warner is the guy who runs Mixergy podcast and I love that podcast because of Andrew. He is my favorite interviewer. If you look at how a lot of people do interview podcasts, they ask questions and I don't know, I've suffered from this in the past as well. I'm not a good interviewer, at least not now. I'd like to learn how to do that skill, but I'm not a great interviewer. And most people who do podcasts with interviews aren't like great interviewers, but Andrew is like the best interviewer I've ever seen. The way he asks questions, how deep he goes and the research he does before the interviews, and all sorts of stuff. Anyway, I love his style, love how he does it so what's cool, I've actually been on the show twice in the past. And the first time, I don't even, sorry, the second time, he totally caught me off guard. I remember he asked me some questions and I didn't really know and I responded and he told me after, he told me live on the interview that he doesn't edit his interviews. He was like, “Well, that was the worst answer you've ever given.” I was like, “Oh, thanks.” Anyway, it just totally caught me off guard, but it was cool the way that he just like kind of holds your feet to the fire. So a little while ago I thought, I want to tell the Clickfunnels startup story. But I didn't want me to just to tell it, I wanted someone who would tell it from a different angle, who would ask the questions that I think people would want to know and do it in a really cool way. So I called Andrew and I'm like, “Hey, I've been wanting to do this thing, and I want to do an event around it. Would you be interested.” And he was like, luckily he said yes. So it's funny, Andrew's famous, I think I might have talked about this in the interview too, but he's famous for these scotch nights he does, and as a Mormon I don't drink so I can't go to his scotch nights. So when we planned this interview, we planned it in Provo, Utah at this place called the Dry Bar Comedy Club. So a dry bar is a bar with no alcohol. So it was kind of a funny thing. We brought those two things, my world and his world together in this one spot to a dry bar, and told the Clickfunnels startup story. And it was cool, ahead of time he did so much research. He interviewed people who love me, people who hated me, he interviewed our old business partners who are no longer part of the business. He did everything and then he came and I told him, “Everything's, you can ask me any question you want. Nothing, no holds barred, feel free to do whatever you want.” So we did the interview and it was about two hours long, and I loved it. I think it turned out amazing. And I hope you guys like it too. So I'll tell you some of the details about the Clickfunnels startup story. How we built what we did, what happened, the ups, the downs, the negatives, the positives. He brings a couple of people up onstage to tell their parts of the story. Anyway, I really hope you enjoy it. So what we're going to do, I'm going to have each episode over the next four episodes be about thirty minutes long so you can listen to them in pieces. I hope iyou enjoy them, I hope you love them. And if you do, please, please, please take a screen shot of your phone when you're listening to it, and go post it on Instagram or Facebook and tag me. And then do hashtag marketing secrets and hopefully that will get more people to listen to the podcast. And then please, if you haven't yet, go rate and review, which would be amazing. So with that said, I'm going to queue up the theme song and when we come back we will start immediately into part one of four of the Dry Bar Comedy Club Interview. Keith Yacky: Clickfunnels has changed a lot of our lives. We all have an origin story. Mine was something similar to, I set up my website on GoDaddy and things were going great. And then Dave Woodward was like, “Dude, you need Clickfunnels.” I'm like, “I don't need a Clickfunnel. I don't even know what a Clickfunnel is.” And he's like, “No, seriously man. This is going to totally change your business.” I'm like, “Bro, I have GoDaddy. They have a commercial on the Super Bowl, Clickfunnels doesn't. But when they do, I'll do it.” Well, boy was I wrong. I changed over and it absolutely changed our business and changed our lives. So thank you for that, Dave. But here's the thing, in every industry there's somebody that comes along that really disrupts the industry, that really changes it, and that really does something amazing for that industry. And as we all, why we're here, we know that person is Russell Brunson. And he has changed a lot of our lives. So before I bring him up here, they have asked me to ask you to make sure you don't do any live recording of this next interview, because the gloves are coming off and they want to be able to present it to the world. You can do little Instagram clips if you'd like, like 15 second ones and tag them. My understanding is the best hashtag and the best clip, gets a date with Drew. I don't know, that's just what they told me. So blame them. But with that, again, no videoing, and let us just absolutely take the roof off this place as we bring up our beloved Russell Brunson. Give it up guys. Russell: Alright, well thanks for coming you guys. This is so cool. I'm excited to be here. So a couple of real quick things before we get started. For all of you guys who know, who came to be part of this, we had you all donate a little bit of money towards Operation Underground Railroad, and I'm really excited because Melanie told me right before I got here the total of how much money we raised from this little event for them. So I think the final number was a little over $13,000 was raised for Operation Underground Railroad. So thank you guys for your continued support with them. Just to put that in perspective, that's enough money to save about 5 children from sex slavery. So it's a big deal and a life changing thing, so it's pretty special. So I'm grateful for you guys donating money to come here. And hopefully you've had a good time so far. Has it been fun? I really want to tuck my shirt in now, I'm feeling kind of awkward. No it's been awesome. Okay so what we're going to do now, I want to introduce the person who's going to be doing the interview tonight. And it's somebody I'm really excited to have here. In fact, I met him for the first time like an hour ago, in person. But I want to tell kind of the reason why I wanted him to do this, and why we're all here. And I'm grateful he said yes, and was willing to come out here and kind of do this. So Andrew runs a podcast called Mixergy. How many of you guys in here are Mixergy listeners? Mixergy is my favorite podcast, I love it. He's interviewed thousands of people about their startup stories and about how they started their businesses. And it's really cool because he brings in entrepreneurs and he tells, gets them to tell their stories. But what's unique about what Andrew does that's fascinating, the way he interviews people is completely different, it's unique. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I don't like a lot of interview shows because a lot of them are just kind of high level. Everyone you listen to with Andrew, he gets really, really deep. The other fun thing is he doesn't edit his interviews. So there was one interview, I'll tease him about this right now. But I was listening to it on my headphones, and him and the guest got in kind of an argument and a fight and then it just ended and they aired it. I was like, “I can't believe you aired that, it was amazing.” And then I was on his podcast a little while later, and he asked me some questions that I couldn't quite understand perfectly, so I was trying to respond the best I could and kind of fumbled through it. And instead of letting me off the hook, his response was, “Man Russell, that was probably the worst answer I've ever heard you give in any interview ever.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So I'm excited for tonight because I told it was like no holds barred and he could ask me anything he wants about the ups of Clickfunnels, the downs of Clickfunnels and anything else, and it's going to be a lot of fun. So I'm excited to have him here. So with that said, let's put our hands together for Mr. Andrew Warner. Andrew Warner: I think my mic is right over here. Thank you everyone, thanks Russell for having me here. Most people will contact me after I interview them and say, “Could you please not air the interview?” And you actually had me back here to do it in person. And you were so nice, you even got us this room here. Check this out, they set us up, they're so nice at Clickfunnels. They said, “Andrew, you're staying here, we're going to put you and your family up the night before in a room.” My wife was so good, look that's her journaling. My kids were playing around, sleeping in the same, sleeping together, enjoying themselves. And then I went to call somebody who was basically let go from Clickfunnels. And my wife goes, “Andrew, why do you have to do that? That's not why they invited you here.” And I said, “I do know Russell. I know the team. They actually did invite me to really help get to the story of how Clickfunnels started, how it built up.” And the reason I was up calling people, understanding the story is because I want to make it meaningful for you. I've talked to a lot of you as you were coming in here, you want to know how they got here, what worked for Clickfunnels, what would work for us. So that's my goal here, to spend the time understanding by interviewing you about how you did it. So I want to go way back to a guy a few of you might recognize, and I know you would, and ask you what drew you to this guy when you were younger? Russell: Don Lepre Clip: “One tiny classified ad in the newspaper that makes just 30-40 dollars profit in a week, it could make you a fortune, because the secret is learning how to take that one tiny classified that just made 30-40 dollars profit in a week, and to realize that you could now take that same exact ad and place it in up to 3,000 other newspapers around the country….” Russell: I'm having nostalgia right now. So this is the story of that, I was 12, 13 years old, something like that, and I was watching the news with my dad. And usually he's like, “Go to bed Russell.” And he didn't that night and then the news got over and I think he thought I was asleep and Mash came on. So Mash started playing and then it got over, and then this infomercial showed up. And I'm laying there on the couch watching Don Lepre talk about tiny classified ads, I was totally freaking out and I jumped up and begged my dad to buy it and he said no. And I was like, “Are you kidding? Did you not listen to what he said?” Did you guys just hear that? That was a good pitch huh? It's really good. I love a good pitch. It is so good. So I went and asked my dad if I could earn the money. So I went and mowed lawns and earned the money and ordered the kit and I still have the original books to this day. Andrew: Were you disappointed? I bought it too. It was the dream of being able to do it. Russell: That's why I like you so much, that's amazing. Andrew: And it's just, all he sent you was a bunch of paper guides with how to buy ads, right. Were you disappointed when you got that? Russell: No, I was excited. I think for me because the vision was cast, it was like, he said right there word for word, you make 40 dollars a newspaper, and if you're disappointed, but he put that same ad in 3,000 newspapers, imagine that. So I had the vision of that, I think the only thing I was disappointed in, I didn't have any money to actually buy an ad. And that was more like, I can't actually do it now. Andrew: You are a champion wrestler and then you got here. Is your wife here? Russell: My beautiful wife right here, Collette. Andrew: Hey Collette. And your dad had a conversation with you about money, what did he say? Russell: So up to that point my dad had supported me, and I figured he would the rest of my life, I think. I don't know. So I was 21 almost 22 at this time, I was wrestling so I couldn't get a job because I was wrestling all the time. Then I met Collette, fell in love with her and then I called my parents and I was like, “Hey, I'm going to marry her. I'm going propose to her and everything.” Expecting them to be like, “Sweet, that'll be awesome.” And my mom was all excited, I'm not going to lie. But then my dad was like, “Just so you know if you get married, you have to be a man now. You have to support yourself.” And I was like, “I don't know how to do that, I'm wrestling.” And he's like, “Well, I'm not going to keep paying for you to do it.” I'm like, “But I literally got the ring. I have, I can't not propose now.” So that was kind of the thing. So it was interesting because about that time there was another infomercial, there's the pattern, about I can't remember exactly the name of the company, but they were doing an event at the local Holiday inn that was like, “Hey, you're going to build websites and make money.” And it was like the night or two days after I told my dad this and he was like, “you're in trouble.” And all the sudden I saw that, so I was like, there's the answer. So I'm at the holiday in two days later, sitting in the room, hearing the pitch, signing up for stuff I shouldn't have bought. There's the pattern. Andrew: Did you feel like a loser getting married at 22 and still counting on your dad for money? Did you feel like you were marrying a loser? Russell: Actually, this is a sad story because she actually, my roommate at the time, she actually asked him, “Do you think he's going to be able to support me in the future?” and he was like, “Yeah, I think so.” I'm like, I didn't know this until later. I don't think I felt like a loser, but I definitely was nervous, like oh my gosh. Because my whole identity at that point in my life was I was a wrestler and if that was to disappear…I couldn't have that disappear. So I was like, I have to figure out something. There's gotta be some way to do both. Andrew: To both what? To be a wrestler and make money from some infomercial? Russell: I didn't know that was going to be the path, but yeah. Andrew: But you knew you were going to do something. What did you think that was going to be? Russell: I wasn't sure. When I went to the event, they were selling these time share books and you could buy resale rights to them, so I was like, oh. And I remember back, because I remembered the Don Lepre stuff, so I was like, maybe I could buy classified ads and sell these things. And then I was at the event and they were talking about websites, and that was the first thing I'd heard about websites. And they're talking about Google and the beginnings of this whole internet thing. So I was like, I can do that. It made all logical sense to me, I just didn't know how to do it. I just knew that that was going to be the only path because if I had to get a job I wouldn't be able to wrestle. So I was like, I have to figure out something that's not going to be a 40 hour thing because I'm spending that time wrestling and going to school. So I had to figure out the best of how to do both. Andrew: And you obviously found it. My goal today is to go through this process of finding it. But let me skip ahead a little bit. What is this website? Russell: Oh man, alright. This is actually, the back story behind this is there was a guy named Vince James who wrote a book called the Twelve Month Millionaire. And if anybody's got that book, it's fat like a phone book. It's a huge book. I read and I was like, this book's amazing. And at the time I was an affiliate marketer, so I had a little bit, maybe a thousand people on my list. So I called up Vince and I was like, “Hey, can I interview you about the book and then I'll use that as a tool to sell more copies of your book?” and he was like, “Sure.” So he jumped on the phone with me on a Saturday and he spent 3 hours letting me interview with any questions I had. And I got to the end of it and I still had a ton of questions and he's like, “Well come back next week and do it again.” So I interviewed him for 6 hours about it. And then we used that to sell some copies of his book and then it just sat there, probably for 2 or 3 years as I was trying different ideas, different businesses and things like that. But every time I would talk to people I would tell them about this interview. I'm like, “I interviewed this guy who made a hundred million dollars through direct mail.” And everyone wanted to hear the interview, everybody asked me for it. So one day I was like, “Let's just make that the product.” And we put it up here and this was the very first funnel we had that did over a million dollars, my first Two Comma Club funnel. Andrew: A million dollars. Do you remember what that felt like? Russell: It was amazing because it was funny back then. There were people, a few people who were making a lot of money online that I was watching and just idolizing everything they'd do. I was trying to model what they were doing. And I'd had little wins, you know $10,000 here, $15,000 here, but this was by far the first one that just hit. Everyone was so excited. Andrew: How'd you celebrate? Russell: I don't even remember how we celebrated. Andrew: You married a winner after all. I mean really. Do you remember what you guys did to celebrate? No. Russell: I don't even remember. (audience responding, inaudible) It was in my list. That's a good question. Andrew: It'll come up, that list is going to come up in a second too. You ended up creating Clickfunnels. How much revenue are you guys doing now, 2018? Russell: 2018 we'll pass over a hundred million dollars, this year. Andrew:  A hundred million dollars, wowee. How far have you come? Russell: Like when did we start? Andrew: Today revenue, as of today, October 2018? Russell: Oh this year? Oh from the beginning of time until now? Andrew: No, no I mean I want to know, you're going to do a hundred million dollars, are you at 10 and you're hoping to get…. Russell: These guys know better than me, do you know exactly where we're at right now? 83 million for the year. Andrew: 83! I love that Dave knows that right, so I want to know how you got to that. I went through your site, pages and pages that look like this. It's like long form sales letters. I asked my assistant to take pictures, she said, “This is, I can't do it, it's too many.” Look at this guys. I asked him to help me figure out what he did. He created this list, this is not the full list, look at this. Every blue line is him finding an old archive of a page he created. It goes on and on like this. How long did it take you to put that together? Russell: It was probably 5 or 6 hours just to find all the pages. Andrew: 5 or 6 hours you spent to find these images to help me tell the story. Years and years of doing this, a lot of failure, what amazes me is you didn't feel jaded and let down after Don Lepre sold you that stuff. You didn't feel jaded and let down and say, ‘This whole make money thing is a failure.' After, and we're going to talk about some of your failures, you just kept going with that same smile, the same eagerness. Alright, let's start with the very first business. What's this one? This is called… Russell: Sublime Net. How many of you guys remember Sublime Net out there? Andrew: You guys remember this? Anyone remember it. You do? Russell: John does. So actually this is the first business for the first website I bought. I was so proud of it, and I spent, I don't know, I wanted to sell software so I was like, ‘what could I name my company?” So I figured out Exciting Software. So I went to buy Exciteware.com, but it wasn't for sale. So I bought Exciteware.net and Collette was working at the time and she came home and I was so excited, I'm like, “We got our first website. We're going to be rich.”  And I told her the name, I was like, “It's Exciteware.net.” and she looked at me with this look like, she's like, “Are you selling underwear, what is the…lingerie?” I'm like, “No, it's software.” And she's like, “You can't, I'm not going to tell my mom that you bought that. You gotta think of another name.” I'm like, “Crap.” So that was the next best name I came up with was Sublime Net. Like the band Sublime. That was it. Andrew: And I was going to ask you what it was, but it was lots of different things. Every screenshot on there is a whole other business under the same name. What are the businesses? Do you remember? Russell: There was website hosting, there was affiliates sites, there were, I can't even remember now, trying to remember. Everything I could think of, resell rights…. Andrew: Lots of different things. How did you do, how well did you do? Russell: Never anything, very little. I remember the first thing I ever sold was an affiliate product, I made $20 on it through my Paypal account, because I remember that night, I do remember I celebrated. We went out to dinner and I had a Paypal credit card, and we bought dinner with $20 and then the guy refunded the next day. It was so sad. But I was proud that I had made money. Andrew: How did you support yourself while this was not working? Russell: I didn't. My beautiful wife did, she had 2 jobs at the time to support me while I was wrestling and doing these things. She was the one who made it possible to gamble and risk and try crazy things. Andrew: Can I put you on the spot and ask you to just come over here and just tell me about this period and what you felt at the time? Is that, I know you don't love being onstage, Russell is good with it, but I know you don't love it. If you don't mind, I'm just going to go with one more story and then I'll come back to you. You cool with it? Good, she seems a little nervous. Actually, wait. Let's see if we can get her right now. Oh you are, okay. Russell: Everyone, this is Collette, my beautiful wife. Andrew: Do you want to use his mic? Collette: Sure. Russell: She's so mad at me right now. Collette: I wanted to come to this, who knew? Andrew: You are like his, he's so proud that he had no venture funding. But you are like his first investor. Russell: That is true. Collette: Yes, I'll be his first investor. Andrew: Can you hold the mic a little closer. How did you know he wasn't a loser? No job, he's wrestling, he's buying infomercial stuff that doesn't go anywhere. We know he did well, so we're not insulting him now, but what did you see in him back then that let you say, ‘I'm going to work extra hard and pay for what he's not doing?' Collette: What did I see in him? It was actually his energy, his spirit, because I'm not going to lie, it was kind of not love at first site, we had, we were geeko's, do you know what I mean? Shopped at the Goodwill, in baggy pants and tshirts, I don't know. But it was the person who just was always positive and we had the same goals. Andrew: That's the thing I noticed too, the positivity. When these businesses fail, we're showing the few on the screen, it's easy to look back and go, ‘ha ha, I did this and it was interesting.' But at the time, what was the bounce back like when things didn't work out? When the world basically said, you know what as sales people, when they don't buy your stuff it's like they don't buy you. When the world basically said, ‘we don't like you. We don't like what you've created.' What was the bounce back like? Hard? Collette: No, because I come from a hard working family. So I work hard. So you just work hard to make it work. Andrew: And he's just an eternal optimistic, and you're an eternal optimist too, like genuinely, really? Collette: Yeah, I guess. It works. Andrew: His dad said, ‘No more money. You had to cut up your credit cards too.' Collette: Yeah. Andrew: What was, how did you cut up your credit cards. What was that day like? Collette: Hard. Yeah hard. Those that don't know, I'm a little bit older than Russell. So I've always had this little bit of independency to go do and buy and do these things, and then all the sudden I'm like, step back sista! You gotta take care of this young man, so we can get to where we're at. Anyway, but now… Andrew: Now things are good? Collette: Now things are amazing. Andrew: Alright, give her a big round of applause. Thanks for coming up here. These businesses did okay, and then you started something that I never heard about, but look at this. I'm going to zoom in on a section of the Google doc you sent me. This is the call center. The call center got to how many employees? 100? Russell: We had about 60 full time sales people, 20 full time coaches, and about 20 people doing the marketing and sales, so about 100 people in the whole company, yeah. Andrew: 100 people doing what kind of call center, what kind of work? Russell: So what we would do, we would sell free CDs and things like that online, free CDs, free books, free whatever, and then when someone would buy it we'd call them on the phone, and then we'd offer them high end coaching. Andrew: And this was you getting customers, how? Russell: Man, back then it was pre-facebook. So a lot of it was Google, it was email lists, it was anything we could figure out to drive traffic, all sorts of weird stuff. Andrew: And then people come in, get a free CD, sign up for coaching, and then you had to hire people and teach them how to coach? How did you do that. Russell: Yeah, that was the hard thing. When we first started doing it, I was just doing the coaching. People would come in and we had a little, Brent and some of you guys remember the little offices we had, and we'd bring people in and we were so proud of our little office. And they'd come in and we'd teach them for 2 or 3 days, teach an event for them, and then as it got bigger it was harder and harder for me to do that. So eventually, and a lot of people didn't want to come to Boise. I love Boise, but it's really hard to get to. So people would sign up for coaching, and then they'd never show up to Boise and then a year later they'd want their money back. So we're like, we have to get something where they're getting fulfilled whether they showed up to Boise or now. So we started doing phone coaching, and at first it was me, and then it was me and a couple other people, and then we started training more coaches, and that's kind of how it started. It was one of those things though, at  first it was just like 5 or 6 of us in a room doing it, and it worked and so then the next logical thing is, we should go from 5 people to 10 to 20 and next thing you know, we wake up with 100 people. I'm like, what are we doing? We're little kids, it scares me that I'm in charge of all these people's livelihood, but that's kind of where it was at and it got kind of scary for me. Andrew: Sometimes I wonder if I'm hiding behind interviewing because I'm afraid to stand up and say, ‘here's what I want. Here's what I think we need to do. Here's how the world should be.' So I'm amazed that even back then, after having a few businesses that didn't really work out, you were comfortable enough to say, ‘Come to my office, I'm going to teach you. I've got it figured out.' When you hadn't.  How did you get yourself comfortable, and what made you feel comfortable about being able to say, ‘I could teach these people. Come to my office.' Who call up, who then become my coaches, who then have to teach other people? Russell: I think for me it was like, when I first started learning the online stuff and entrepreneurship, I think most people feel this, it's so exciting you want to tell everybody about it. So I'm telling my friends and my family and nobody cares at first. And you're like, I have to share this gift I've figured out, it's amazing. And nobody cares. And then the first time somebody cares, and you just dump on them, you want to show it to them. So I hadn't made tons of money, but I had a lot of these little websites that had done, $30 grand, $50 grand, $100 grand. So for me it was like, if I can show these people, I know what that did for me, it gave me the spark to want to do the next one and the next one. So for me it was like I want to share this because I feel like I figured it out. So that was the thing coming in. We weren't teaching people how to build a hundred million dollar company, but we're like, “Hey, you can quit your job. You can make 2 or 3 thousand dollars a month, you can quit your job, and this is how I did it. This is the process.” So that's what we were showing people. Just the foundation of how we did it, and we showed other people, because they cared and it was exciting to share it with other people. Andrew: Is Whitney here? There she is. I met her as she was coming in. I wanted to get to know why people were coming to watch this, what they wanted to hear from you. And Whitney was asking about the difficult period, the why. I'm wondering the same thing that she and I were talking about, which is why put yourself through this? You could have gotten a job, you could have done okay, why put yourself through the risk of hiring people, the eventual as we'll see, closing of the company, what was your motivation? What was the goal? Why did you want to do it? Russell: I think it shifts throughout time. I think most entrepreneurs when they first get started, it's because of money. They're like, ‘I want to make money.' And then you get that and then really quick, that doesn't last very long. And then it's like, then for me it was like, I want to share that with other people. And then when other people get it, there's something about that aha moment where you're like, oh my gosh they got it. They got what I was saying. And that for me was like the next level, the next high. It was just like, ah, I love that. And back then we had some success stories coming through, but now days, it's like the bigger success stories come through and that's what drives it on. That is the fascinating part. That's why we keep, because most software company owners don't keep creating books, and courses and inter….but when people have the aha, oh my gosh, that's the best for me. Andrew: That's the thing, you get the high of the thing that you wanted when you were growing up, that you wanted someone to show it to you, and if you could then genuinely give it them, not like Don Lepre. But Don Lepre plus actual results, that's what fires you up. Russell: That does fire me up. That's amazing. Andrew: What happened? Why did that close down? Russell: Oh man, a lot of things. A lot of bad mistakes, a lot of first time growing a company stuff that I didn't, again, we just woke up one day it felt like, and we were in this huge office, huge overhead, and about that time, it was 99, 2000 something like that, and there was the merchant account that me and most of the people doing internet marketing at the time, we all used the same merchant account, and they got hit by Visa and Mastercard, so they freaked out and shut down. I think it ended up being 4 or 5 merchant accounts overnight, and we had 9 different merchant accounts with that company, and all of them got shut down instantly. I remember because everything was fine, we were going through the day and it was like 1:00 in the afternoon on a Friday. They came in like, “None of the, the cards won't process.” And I'm like, couldn't figure out why they weren't processing. We tried to call the company and no one's answering at the company. Finally we get someone on the phone and they're like, “Yep, you got shut down along with all the other scammers.” And then she hung up on me. And I was like, I don't know what to do right now. I've got 100+ people and payroll is not small, and we didn't have a ton of cash in the bank, it was more of a cash flow business. And Collette actually just left town that night, and she was gone. I remember Avatar just came out, and everyone was going to the movie Avatar that night, and I remember sitting there during the longest movie of all time, and I don't remember anything other than the sick feeling in my stomach. I was texting everyone I know, trying to see if anyone knew what to do. And everyone was like, “We got shut down too.” “We got shut down.” Everyone got shut down. And we couldn't figure out anything. So we came back the next day and I called everyone up, and actually kind of a funny side story, I had just met Tony Robbins a little prior, earlier to this. So that night I was laying in bed, it was like 4 in the morning, and my phone rings and I look at it and it was Tony Robbins' assistant. And I pick it up and he's like, “Hey, is there any way you can be in Vegas in three hours? There's a plane from Boise to Vegas and Tony wants you to speak at this event. It's starting in three hours. You need to be on stage in three hours.” I'm sitting here like, my whole world just collapsed, I'm laying in bed sick to my stomach and I'm like, “I don't think I can. I have to figure this thing out.” And then he tells Tony, and they call me back. “Tony says if your business is…if you can't make it, don't show up. You're fine.” So I didn't go and then the next morning I woke up and there was a message on my phone that I'd missed. I passed out and I woke up and it was a message from Tony. And he was like, “Hey man, I know that you care about your customers, you care about things. I don't know the whole situation, but worst case scenario, if you need help let me know, and we can absorb you into Robbins research or whatever and you can be one of my companies, and that way if you want, we can protect you.” And I heard that and I was like, “Okay, that's the worst case scenario, I get to work with Tony Robbins? That's the worst case scenario.” So then I called up everyone on my team and I was like, “Okay guys, we gotta try to figure out how to save this.” And Brent and John and everyone, we came back to my house and I was like, “Okay, what ideas do we got?” And we just sat there for the next 5 or 6 hours trying to figure stuff out. And then we went to work, and I wish I could say that everything turned around, but it was the next probably 2 or 3 years of us firing 30 people, firing 20 people, closing things down, moving down offices. Just shrinking for a long, long time, until the peak of it, it was about a year after that moment, and we were in an event in Vegas trying to figure out how to save stuff, and I got an email from my dad who was helping with the books at the time, and he said, “Hey, I got really bad news for you. I looked through the books and it turns out your assistant who is supposed to be doing payroll taxes, hadn't paid payroll in over a year. You owe the IRS $170,000 and if you don't pay this, you're probably going to go to jail.” And I was like, every penny I'd earned to that point was gone. Everything was done and we'd lost everything and I was just like, I don't know how to fight this battle, but if I don't fight it I go to jail apparently. And I remember that's a really crappy feeling. Brent, some of you guys are reliving this with me right now, I know. I remember going back that night, laying in bed and I was just like, “I wish I had a boss that could fire me, because I don't know what to do, how to do it.” And that was kind of, that was definitely the lowest spot for me. Andrew: And you stuck with him? Wow, yeah.

Enjoy another round of questions and answers during a recent Marketing Secrets Live episode. Register for the next Marketing Secrets Live episode at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Show. During this episode, you're going to have a chance to listen to some of the live Q and A. And this one got really fun. We had some really cool directions and angles that we went on. I think there's something for everybody through this Q and A, so hopefully you enjoy it. On top of that, don't forget: If you want to get your question answered live, make sure you subscribe at clubhousewithrussell.com. It's clubhousewithrussell.com. Go there. Subscribe to the room. And that way, you'll be notified the next time I decide to go live, and you can jump on and get your questions answered. These questions this week were really fun. A lot of different directions. I think you guys will get a lot of value from it. So that said, we'll cue the theme song. When we get back, we'll jump directly into the questions and answers. Yhennifer: Awesome. So our first guest here is Tracy. Tracy is guiding you with tax reduction strategies! All right, Tracy. Thank you so much for being here. What question do you have for Russell? Tracy: Hi, Russell! This is Tracy Lo, and I am so inspired by your stories all the time. I've learned so much from both you from afar, and also Myron. So my question is: How do you keep all your parts moving? Do you have a strategy for keeping your mental state as well as your philanthropy and your business together? What is your strategy? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! I would say I've been lucky, because when I first started this business, it was me trying to figure things out. And I was more chaotic than I am now. Anyone on my team is laughing, because they know that it's still kind of chaos. I think from the outside, things look organized, and things like that. But it's really surrounding myself with a good team of people. People who have a similar mission, who are trying to do the same things that we're doing together. It's having a good team of people. And then a lot of it is just figuring out how to build the things into your routines that'll get you the success you're looking for. Right? So for me, I know that for the first... ah, man... seven to eight years of my entrepreneur journey, I wasn't into health. And so I gained a ton of weight. And I had a... You know? I was more lethargic. I didn't even know I was unhealthy until I decided to start getting in shape and getting back in. And all of a sudden, by getting back in shape, it increased my energy. I felt better. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh! I need to weave this, now, into my routine to make sure I don't lose it again." So it became part of my routine where these things are all tied into it. Right? And so now it's easy, because it's just part of what I do. Mentally: "Okay. How do I stay sharp?" Well, if I'm going to be successful, I get paid to think for a lot of people. So if I'm going to be successful, my mind has got to be sharp. So I got to go listen to podcasts, and read books. And putting myself in situations where I can keep sharp and keep figuring out, "What's working today? What are the things that are working the best?" And so I figure out what all those things are, and then I put them into my schedule. I say, "Okay. I need to build this into my routine where I have time to listen to podcasts, or read books, or go to things that are going to help stimulate my mind so I can stay high there." And then charities. Right? When we decided... It's funny, because I get hit. I'm sure all of you guys here, you're hit by a million people wanting to... "I want to start donating money, maybe, to charities!" And for me, it's like, "I don't want to be the person that just gives money and then forgets about it." I want to make sure the things that I'm passionate about, so... Like Village Impact, we're very passionate about that. So it was like, "Okay. How do we make this part of what we do?" And so it wasn't just like... Give them a check, and then a year later, figure it out. It was like, "Okay. If we're going to do this with them, let's be very strategic about that." So I said, "Okay. Let's..." Todd and I, when we started ClickFunnels, we said, "Okay. Let's set up where every time somebody creates a funnel inside of ClickFunnels and it gets at least 100 visitors..." So it's a live funnel. "We'll donate a dollar to Village Impact." And so we started that seven years ago. And the first year, I think our check we gave them was... I don't know, $15 grand. And then the next year, it was $30 grand. And then $60 grand. And then $100 grand. So it gets bigger and bigger, but it's now part of the mission. So I don't have to think about it, because it's built into what we're doing. And now every year at Funnel Hacking Live, I'm like, "Stu and Amy, come on stage!" And we have a big old check. You know? Now, it's six-figure checks. And they get bigger. And it's eventually going to be seven-figure checks. But it's built into what we're doing, and so I don't have to think about it again. You know? O.U.R. is the same thing. We did the big launch where we launched with the documentary, and it did well, but then it wasn't consistent. So we're building a whole platform now that'll be a consistency thing, where it's now that... This mission is always being worked on, because there's a platform, and there's someone in charge of it. There's a team member who... that becomes their sole focus. And now it's weaved into it. So it's figuring out the things that are important to you that help you achieve the goals you want, and then figuring out... How do you weave those things into your routine, or your business model, or your whatever, so that it just happens and you don't have to think about it? Because it's too hard. We have so many things we're all doing. If you have to have the mental power to think about it every time, then nothing ever happens. So that's kind of how I do it. And I hope that helps. And it's also surrounding yourself by amazing humans who help fulfill those missions as well. Tracy: Thanks so much, Russell. This is Tracy Lo, CPA, passing the mic. Thank you. Russell: Awesome! Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it. Yhennifer: All right. Thank you for being here, Tracy. Now we're going to go on to Jermaine. Jermaine is in the real estate industry. Jermaine, what question do you have for Russell? Jermaine: Hey, Russell! Hey, everyone! I just had a quick question. I was wondering... Well, I got two questions. The first one: I didn't quite catch that book that you recommended? Russell: Was it Atlas Shrugged? Jermaine: What was that again? Russell: Atlas Shrugged. Jermaine: Yep. That's it. Russell: It's a really big book, so it takes commitment. It's insanely big. But as an entrepreneur and producer, you will love it. Especially in the real estate market. Jermaine: Okay. And I also wanted to know... while I have you... I wanted to know: Throughout all your time that you've changed the world and inspired people, what was your biggest business challenge that you had to overcome? And how did you overcome it? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! You know what's interesting, is that at every level, there's a new challenge. And so it changes. And every time when you're going through it, it seems like the biggest thing in the world. And when you look back, it's like, "Oh, that was actually really simple." But in the heat of the moment, it's hard. For the beginning part, it was just me believing that I was worth it. Right? I was the kid who struggled in school. I was never that smart. The only thing I was ever good at was wrestling. And I'm trying to start a business, and then I had a million doubts of, "I'm not worthy. I don't know how to do this. I'm not smart enough. I don't..." At the time, I didn't like to read! You know? First, it's that mental battle. I think for most entrepreneurs when they start their journey, it's the mental battle of just believing that you're worth it, that you can actually do it. And so for me, that one took a while. And then when I finally was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not..." I always thought I was a dumb kid growing up, because I struggled in school. So I remember having the realization after I started having success. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not dumb! I can learn things! If I'm interested in the book, I can actually read it and enjoy it!" So that was the first big hurdle for me. Right? The next one was... As I got to a point in my business that was like... It was just me, and I was juggling a million things. I was like, "Okay. How do I... I can't keep doing this. I'm going to drown eventually." So I was bringing on employees to the team. And man, I can't tell you how bad I was at that! I hired all my friends. All my friends, I just hired initially, because I was like, "Oh. They're cool. I'll hang out with them!" So I hired all my friends. It turns out my friends are morons... No, I'm just kidding! Well, kind of. Some of them were... But no, I love them all. But it was like I hired all my friends, and they didn't know what to do. And I didn't know how to teach them. So I was like... Dude, I was working while they were all goofing off in the other room. And they wanted help, but I couldn't teach them, because I was too busy trying to make money to pay them. And so it took me years to figure out, "How do you get a team and get the right people in place?" And that was the next big challenge. Right? Then it was like, "How do you actually create something that's not just an offer?" Right? That could be a long-standing business. We tried for years to figure that out. And eventually, ClickFunnels was the business that became more than just an offer for me where it was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is a platform, something that can grow bigger." And then inside of that, there has been so many challenges. How do you scale a company like that? You know? How do you scale the support? How do you go from five employees to 500 employees? There's just different challenges to every step. And so I think that there's been a lot of them. But the biggest thing I would say is that the key that I find at every tier, the thing... It took me a while to figure this out initially. And now, I've gotten better at realizing, "Oh, the pattern to solve these is always the same." It is... You can call it "funnel hacking," call it, "modeling," whatever it is... is I try to always connect to the people that are a tier above me or two tiers above me. Right? So right now, we're trying to... I literally am paying somebody who's gone here, done this. And we do a one-hour call every other week with him. He's built multiple companies, software companies, to the billion-dollar mark. And so he's been down the path. And so we get on a call. I'm like, "Okay. Here's where we're stuck. What am I going to do? What would you do?" And I'm asking questions and modeling, like, "Hey. Show me three businesses that have done what you're talking about." And he'll show me. We'll find it. And we look at it, and we reverse-engineer it. We come back and apply it. And so the key is just really figuring out... It's modeling. It's figuring out who's already done the thing you're doing. Find that person. Pay them money. Get to know them. Join their coaching. But whatever it is, get around the people who have already done the thing you're trying to do. Because for them, it's simple. Right? For us, as we're going through it, it's really, really difficult. But the person who's already done it, looking back, it's simple. For me, now, the mindset and belief of, "I can do this," is simple now. I get it. I can help somebody with that really, really easily. Whereas in the moment, it was impossible. It felt impossible. Right? Launching a software company felt like an impossible moment, and now it's super easy. So it's finding people who... The thing you're struggling with now is super easy, because they've already done it multiple times. Getting around them. Hiring them. Paying them. And learning how to think like them. Right? It's always a shift in thinking and belief. And so it's coming back and saying, "Okay. I've got to think like them. I've got to believe like them." I think a lot of times, many of us... and I see this a lot with people who hire me... they hire me, or they hire a coach, and then they try to get the coach to believe or think like they do. And I'm the opposite: I'm not coming to you to try to influence your beliefs. I'm coming to you to change my beliefs. And that's a hard thing to do. Right? Our ego gets in the way a lot of times. So it's coming and saying, "Okay. I'm a blank slate. I'm going to do whatever you say." In fact, it's funny, because inside our community, we have the... Kaelin Poulin started it with the whole hashtag, #dowhatrussellsays. And at first, I was really embarrassed by it. But now, it's so cool! Because it's like, "Yeah. If you're hiring me to be your coach, just do what I say!" If I hire a coach, I just do what they say. I literally just... In fact, I'm working on my fourth book right now. And I have a quote. One of my friends wrote this in a blog post. He was talking about his morning routine, and why he does this really weird thing. And he says in the thing, he said, "People ask me why I do this." He said, "Because Tony Robbins told me so, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." And so for me, it's always been this joke: Now, when I hire a coach, whatever they say, I say, "I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." Right? If I hire someone, I just believe them inherently, because I did the work ahead of time to see if I'm going to believe them. If I believe them, I give them my money. And I do whatever they say, and I don't deviate from that. Right? So people in my world say hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." For me, it's hashtag, "#dowhatstevencollinssays." That's the guy who I hired right now who is mentoring me. Whatever he says, I just do it. I don't fight. I don't question. He's been there a million times. And so I just do what all giant... You know? I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. I obey whoever I pay to teach me something, because they know what I don't know. And so for me, that's kind of the process: Find the hurdle. Find out who's already done it. Get that person. And then obey them, and just follow what they say to a T. So I hope that helps. Jermaine: That made perfect sense. So you basically trust yourself, and then you do what your coaches say? Russell: 100 percent. Yep! I do the work ahead of time. Before I hire the coach, I got to make sure I believe this coach is right. But if I believe they're right, then yes, I just do whatever they say. And so I see people, sometimes, blindly will sign up for coaching, or they'll hire a mentor, or whatever. And then they just kind of blindly follow the person. The person might not be right for them. But I do the homework ahead of time. And then when I know, "Okay. I'm committed. This is the person." Then I go all in, and I just put on blinders and follow them. Jermaine: Got you. I appreciate that. What was that book again? I'm going to have to write that down. Russell: Atlas Shrugged. So the way to remember it is Atlas is the god that's holding the weight of the world on his shoulders. And the premise of the book is: The producers, the entrepreneurs, people like us who are trying to... We're literally holding the weight of the world on our shoulders. Right? We're creating companies. We're creating jobs, and doing all these things. What would happen if Atlas just shrugged and walked away from his responsibilities? So the book is about that. What happens when the producers get so much pressure from government and society where it's no longer worth it to them, so they shrug, and they walk away from their responsibilities? And so that's the premise of the book, which is so fascinating. I'm actually listening to it again right now, which is fun. But it's a 1500-page book. It's intense. If you listen to the audiobook, it's eight audiobooks. That's how big it is. But man, it's worth it! Jermaine: I'm going to grab both of them right now. I've got all of your books. I've been following you for a while. My favorite one is the DotCom Secrets. Russell: Oh, very cool! Thanks, man! I appreciate that. Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you. Jermaine: You're welcome. Yhennifer: ... Jermaine. Thank you for being here today. I'm going to reset the room really quickly. We are, right now, listening to the Marketing Secrets Live podcast. This room is actually being recorded. Make sure you follow the house at the top so that you can get a notification when Russell goes live again here. Now, we are going to give the mic to Jeff. Welcome, Jeff! He is a product launch expert, has made over $8 million from 22 launches in three years. What question do you have for Russell, Jeff? Russell: What's up, Jeff? Jeff: Hey, Russell! What's going on, buddy? Russell: Good to hear from you. Jeff: So hey, being in your inner circle for the last five years, I've had the awesome pleasure of watching all the big house marketing initiatives that you've incorporated into the funnels that you and the rest of the ClickFunnels community launched, and also at your annual Funnel Hacking Live event with Village Impact and O.U.R., as you mentioned. So what's been cool to see is the more funnels and events you launch, the more you're able to give back, which is awesome. So how are you thinking about incorporating that live launch strategy that you've been doing with, perhaps, more of an evergreen launch strategy now? With things like OFA, your quarterly Two Comma Club Live virtual event, and now the DotCom Secrets Summit that you just launched, with some of these... trying to also bring in these new live launches. I know you have Funnel Hacking Live coming up in a few months. Can you just talk about... Each month, what are you looking at in terms of evergreen versus live? Russell: Yeah. That's a good question. That's something we could talk about for a long time. You know? I think it's interesting. I watch somebody like Tony Robbins, who... He does UPW four times a year. He does Date with Destiny twice a year. And he does these things. And he's been doing it live for decades now. Three or four decades, he's been doing these events. If you go to them, they're very similar every single time. And for me, it's tough, because if I go back and I teach the same thing twice, I want to pull my hair out! You know? And I'm like, "I don't know how Tony has been so consistent for so long." And so for me, it's like there's this blend. Right? There's things that... The DotCom Secrets book came from me from a decade of me teaching these principles. I was doing events, and speaking at other people's events, and teaching these principles. And finally, I was like, "If I have to tell this story about the value ladder one more time, I'm going to kill myself." Right? So that's when I finally was like, "I'm going to write a book." So I wrote a book. And it was like, "Here it is. It's now evergreen. I can give it to people. And I don't want to talk about this thing again." Right? A similar thing happened with Expert Secrets. And you were in the inner circle, and I was... We spent three years geeking out on webinars, and conversions, and psychology, and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, "I don't ever want to talk about this again." So I turned it into a book. And I was like, "Hey, there's the blueprint!" And so I look at the online stuff through a very similar way. Right? We did the Two Comma Club Live event that first time, and then my energy was there. I was excited. It was fun. We created it. We launched it. It was amazing! But then, I was like... For me, it's like art. I didn't want to just be like, "Hey, it's done!" And walk away from it. But I didn't want to teach it again. So it's like, "Okay. How do I turn this experience into something that's now evergreen?" That we can keep the message going on. Right? So that when I'm dead and gone, my kids can keep running the ads, and keep running the event, and it'll keep producing. Because for me, all the stuff we do is art. And so I want to sustain it. So I'm always looking: Is there something I can do that I can create it, but then it'll last? It'll live beyond myself. Right? If you've read Ryan Holiday's book, The Perennial Seller... In fact, he spoke last year at Funnel Hacking Live about that book. I was like, "I want you to talk about Perennial Seller!" He was like, "I've written eight books since then!" I was like, "I know, but that's my favorite one! You've got to talk about that." But in Perennial Seller, he talks about the difference between art that lasts forever versus stuff that happens and is gone. Right? A good example is in movies. Right? Avatar, for a long time, was the greatest selling movie of all time. But if you ask someone to quote an Avatar line, there's not a person on this Earth who can remember anything from that movie. Right? It was a great seller, but then it died. Right? And so many people in our industry do a big sell, and then it dies. And it disappears. Versus you create a movie like Star Wars, where it lives beyond itself... It has legacy. It's a perennial seller. It'll continue to do well for a million years from now. Or you have TV shows. Right? You look at Seinfeld versus Friends: Friends was very much successful in the moment, but then it hasn't lived on as well as something like Seinfeld, which has lived on in perpetuity for so long. Much more of a perennial seller. And so I was always trying to create things that could be perennial sellers. And so when I do do something like that where I think it can last beyond itself, where things are strategic enough that they're not tactical, and they're going to change. Where they're strategic and we can do it, I want those things to live forever. So again, that's the Summits. That's the Two Comma Club Live, and things like that. But then we have our big hits. Right? Funnel Hacking Live, it's a big show. It's what's working now. You know? We put all this energy and this effort into it, but we know it's a one-time show. Right? And it happens. It's done. It's over. And then next year, we're going to plan a new one. And we can't evergreen Funnel Hacking Live. Right? It's a little bit different. And so it's just looking at those kind of things. You know? Sometimes, you're going to have an Avatar hit. And you should totally go and take the 100 billion dollars it makes and cash it, because that's awesome. But other things you create, you want the longevity. And so for me, that's how I'm looking at things. It's just like, "Okay. What things have longevity? What things do I want to be a perennial seller? What things do I think can last just beyond a product launch or beyond a thing?" And as soon as it's done, then it's like, "Okay. How do we morph that into something now that can last beyond the moment?" So that's kind of how I look at things in my head, how I figure things out. And then on top of that, it's just... You know? We're still kind of figuring it out. So some things, we're finding that we launch and we make the perennial version, they don't last long. They're still there. So people can find them, but they're not... The longevity is not there. We can't continue to buy ads to it. Whereas One Funnel Way, it's crazy! To this day, One Funnel Way has been running almost three years now. We fill up 1500 every two weeks to a 100 dollar, paid challenge. And it continues to convert. It continues to work. It continues to... That one is, of all the things we've done, the most perennial, and just continues to work. And I wouldn't have guessed that going into it until we tried to make the evergreen version. And it kept working. And it's like, "Oh, my gosh! This is amazing!" So yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But kind of... That's how I think through things, and how I'm looking at stuff. Myron: Can I ask you a question about that, Russell? Russell: Yeah, Myron! I'd love to. Myron: What advertising methodologies are you using to put 1500 people in a challenge every two weeks? Because that sounds phenomenal! Russell: Yeah! A couple things: Number one is we pay 100 percent affiliate commission. So the only people who go through it refer people, and it's 100 bucks, and they get 100 percent of that 100 bucks. Number two is that I can spend 100... I can lose money. So I can spend 150, 200 dollars to sell a challenge. So I can spend a lot of money to do it, because again, 100 percent of the money goes directly back into advertising. We're not trying to make money on the challenge. As you know, all the money is in the back. And amateurs focus on the front end. So we liquidate it. 100 percent of our money goes into the ad spin. And number three, I think, is just... The message is right. For some reason, that message, it lives long. Right? The people, if it's their very first time... You look at the headline. It's like, "If you want to launch your first or your next funnel." So if it's their first one, it's like, "Oh, this is going to help me." Number two, it's like if you've launched a funnel but, "I need to go back and do this again," it gives you a chance to review it and go back through it. And I'd say the last thing is we weave that theme into all of our offers now. If you look at everything, every offer leads back to OFA. You buy all my books? OFA is in that sales flow. You do one of our challenges, it leads back to OFA. So it's weaved into everything now. So it's plugged into the back end of everything we're doing. And so no matter what somebody buys, all roads lead to the One Funnel Way challenge eventually, which is pretty cool. Myron: Wow! Russell: Yeah. And we're working on, now- Myron: Great stuff. Russell: We're working on a One Funnel Away e-commerce version of the OFA challenge next, which I'm really excited for as well. So anyway- Dan: And you do that live every two weeks? Russell: So I don't. I recorded it live once. And we have a team, now, though. So we have a team of... One person runs it, and three or four coaches. And so every week, they reset a new Facebook group. And then they're in there full-time answering questions. And then they stream. The trades that were live at one time, they stream them into the Facebook group. And all the interaction happens there. So it feels very alive. People know it's not alive, but it feels very live. It's executed live. It's not like logging the members in and watch... Day-one videos. We try to replicate the experience as close as possible. And again, it's not just like, "Go watch this video and hope for the best." Literally, they watch the video, and then there's coaches in there who are answering questions, who are getting them to do the homework, who are... Full-time, their job is in there, now. Because it's been so profitable for us, man, we left... I always tell people: One of the biggest problems that us entrepreneurs have is we create something and then we move on to the next thing. And OFA was the first thing that our group created it, and were like, "There's something magic here." And we left somebody behind. So Shane on our team, we left him behind and said, "Your job is to continue to make this better and to run it." And then he hired three or four coaches, and now there's a team of people who, full-time, all they do is make sure OFA is happening, and it's consistent, and it works. And because we left somebody behind, that's why the fulfillment continues to improve week after week, although I'm not creating new content week after week. Dan: And it converts similar with the streaming replay as it did with you doing it live? Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Dan: That's- Russell: It was easier to sell people in initially: "Yeah, go sign up for it! Go to onefunnelway.com and watch the process!" But yes- Dan: That's what I'm going to do right now. Russell: 100 percent. 100 percent. And like I said, three years, we've been running that thing. We launched initially, and then we did it live again four or five months ago just to kind of refresh the whole thing. But other than that, it's the same thing. And it runs on autopilot. Dan: And the affiliate aspect is really important, because everybody that comes in, you then say, "Hey. Do you want to make money? Did you love this challenge? Bring somebody in." And they get a commission. Can I just ask one question about that? Russell: Yeah. Let me give one clarity, and then ask the question. So the clarity is- Dan: Yeah. Russell: also right when they first come in. It's like, "You paid 100 bucks for this. Do you want this to be free? Invite a friend." It's right when they sign up. It's like, "Bring by a friend," and now it's free for them, because they just get one person to sign up, and now it's free. Dan: Okay. That... Okay. So that's my question, is: You guys have really, truly went just deep in the affiliate game. And I almost feel like, sometimes, going all-in on the affiliate game is like... I'd rather pay my customers and my clients than pay Zuckerberg. Do you know what I mean? Honestly! And so my question to you, on that, is: How do you train somebody who is a normal customer, who is not an affiliate or a traditional super affiliate, to actually refer people to you? Obviously, you have to tell them, "Hey, here's how you refer people." What's your best tip for that? Russell: Yeah. The best tip is you have to think about it differently. A lot of people are thinking about, "I'm going to make him an affiliate, and teach him about affiliate marketing!" And the average customer, they're not going to be an affiliate. Right? You look at... The people in e-com space do this really well, a lot of times, and other places, where it's... The position is not how to make a bunch of money as an affiliate. The position is, "How do you get this product for free?" Right? It's like, "Hey. You get three people to sign up for this, or..." You know? Whatever. For me, it's like, "You get one person to sign up, and now it's free." That's how you position it. And they're like, "Oh, my gosh! I can tell my brother!" And then, "I'm doing this challenge, too! I'm going to invite my friend, and I actually get paid for it?" And so you get them passing it around. They're not looking at it as a business opportunity as much as, "How do you get the thing you just bought for free? How do you get your money back very, very, quickly?" That's the shift. Right? Because they're not going to go sign up 100 people, but they are going to get one or two. Right? And if every person brings in one or two, it becomes this self-fulfilling machine that just keeps growing, and things like that. And so it's just looking at it differently, and just showing... That's the positioning. Right? It's not how to be affiliates. It's, "Get this thing for free by telling three people to-" Dan: So you're not giving them any sort of extensive training? You're just pretty much hoping that one customer will refer, maybe, a couple... few... people. But it's a consistent thing, rather than, "Hey. Here's this training on how to refer more people." And you... But- Russell: Yeah. Because they're not going to buy ads. They're not going to... They don't have an email list. But they're going through this. They believe in it now, and they don't want to feel dumb. And it's like, "If I can get my friends in this and do it together, now it's a fun thing. And we can study together." And that's the- Dan: Oh, the accountability! Oh, my gosh! That's so good! Okay. All right. That was awesome. That was gold. Russell: Awesome. Yhennifer: Light bulbs are going off here! I love it! I hope everyone is taking notes. I want to add one more thing to the OFA stuff, Russell, if it's okay with you? Russell: Yeah. Yhennifer: Because I see what goes on in the Facebook community, and I just wanted to add that people sometimes buy the OFA more than once just because they want the accountability of the coaches. They come back. They see that it has so much value that they're like, "100 dollars? I'm in!" So we also see that as well. Russell: Yeah. The OFA lifers, it's almost a continuity program. They re-sign up every single month, because they don't want to lose the connection with the team! Yhennifer: Yes! Yes. It's amazing. So if you have not done the One Funnel Way, go to onefunnelway.com. It's an awesome, awesome offer. Yhennifer: Okay. We have one more guest here, Michael Hoffman. He's a digital marketer and an owner of a digital media agency. So Michael, what question do you have for Russell? Michael: Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for having me up here. Russell, thanks so much for providing all the value. You mentioned something before, that there was this hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." And earlier this year, I read Traffic Secrets, started my podcast. The other day, I finished your new Expert Secrets. I'm going to work on my weekly webinar now. So doing what Russell says actually works! So my question is a little different, and more mindset-related. You have an extensive past in... almost professional sports. You were a wrestler for many, many years. And you made that transition into entrepreneurship. And I have a past as a professional basketball player, and also transitioned into... first, to a full-time job, and then entrepreneurship. And for me, it was a very difficult time to shift my identity. And I just wanted to get your... yeah, basically... experiences on how you experienced that phase, to transition from full-time sports to entrepreneurship, and what helped you to complete this identity shift? Russell: Oh, very cool! It's interesting. I think... Not always, but I feel like athletes often do really good in entrepreneurship. And I think the reason why... I've thought about this a lot... It's because for me, with wrestling... I'm sure it's the same for you with basketball... Every day, for me, I'd step out on the mat. And there was the guy I'm going against. And we'd wrestle. And a lot of times, I lost. A lot of times, I won. But I got used to failure, and it didn't destroy my identity when I failed. Right? I feel like a lot of people get into entrepreneurship, and they're so scared that if they try something and it fails, that it means that they're a failure. Versus in wrestling, I'd fail, and I'm like, "Cool! Now I know how to beat this guy!" Watch the film, figure it out next time I go back, and I try to beat him again. Right? And it's a different mindset where failure meant I could learn something, versus failure meant I was a failure. And I see that so many times in entrepreneurs, where they'll sit in club house rooms, or podcasts, or read books for years, and years, and years, and never do anything, because they're so scared of that failure. Whereas athletes have experienced it. You know? I lost tons of matches! You know? So I'm used to that failure, and I'm okay with it, and I don't label myself as a "failure." So I think that's why athletes do well, just because they have had that experience. But on the other question, that identity shift: So it was interesting. So my wrestling career, that was my life, as you know. It was probably similar to you. I was a wrestler. If you asked me, "Russell, what are you?" I'd go, "I'm a wrestler." And so I was. And I wrestled all the way through college. And I remember at the end of college is when I started learning some of the internet business and figured things out. And my senior year, I ended up losing the Pac-10 Tournament. I thought I was going to go to Nationals and place. And I had... My entire life, I was focused on this goal. And I ended up losing the Pac-10s and not qualifying for the National Tournament my senior year, which was horrible for me. Right? My entire everything just stopped. I remember sitting there on the side of the mat crying, and just... "It's done. I can't even achieve my goal if I wanted to. It's gone! There's no..." It was weird not being able to achieve a goal. And I remember, luckily for me, I had this entrepreneurship thing happening at the time that I was learning about. Because if I didn't have something, I think I would have gone into this downward spiral of depression just knowing that the thing I'd been dreaming about for 20 years, I know longer... It's physically impossible for me to do, now. It's out of... It's impossible. And so for me, luckily, I had this business. And I started focusing my time and energy there. And it gave me something to do, to focus on a new goal. And that was the big goal, the big thing. And so, because I was able to transition pretty easily... Because I had just... I was trying to avoid the pain of my old identity dying, and so I had to shift over here. And so I think, for people who are making that transition, it's... I mean, you used the word "identity shift," which was the right word. Right? It's like you have to shift that identity. And I don't know how to... I mean, in fact, we have Anthony Trucks, who is going to be speaking at Funnel Hacking Live specifically on identity shifting yourself, which I'm excited for. He's geeked out on this at a level that I don't think anyone else really has, and so it's going to be fun to have him go into it on the process. Because I don't know exactly what the process was, other than that I knew that I shifted. And then I started looking at it like a sport. I said, "Okay. What's the goal? What am I going to win?" You know? "Who are my teammates? Who do I got to get to know? Who are the competitors? Who do I have to beat?" And I just used the same mindset. And I think that a lot of people come into business, and they look at it different than a sport, which is interesting when you look at it. It's like, "Oh, I'm here to..." You know? I don't know. I did a podcast three or four years ago. I still remember where I was at when I recorded it, because when we came out with ClickFunnels, for me, it was... It's a combat sport. I'm looking: "Okay, who are the competitors? Who are the people out there?" And at first, it was like, "Leepages! That's who I have to beat!" Because in wrestling, that's what I did: "All right. Who is the guy that I got to beat?" I looked at him. We studied film. We figured it out, and we got to the point where I could beat that person. And we found the next person in the next tier up. We found the person, identified the target, reverse-engineered their style, and learned how to beat them. And so for me, it was the same thing. Leepages was the first person on our hit list. Right? So we came out. And those who were around when we launched ClickFunnels, it was very aggressive. It was not... You know? I was like, "This is our competitors. We're going after them." And we went after them. Then we got to the point where we beat Leepages, and we passed them. After we passed them, it was like, "Hey, who is the next competitor?" For us, it was Infusionsoft. And I was like, "There's no way we can beat Infusionsoft. They're huge!" But I'm like, "That's the goal!" And so we figured out who they were. We reverse-engineered it. You know? Went after them, and ended up far surpassing them. And it was interesting, because I remember the CEO and me... He's a really nice guy. But he messaged me one time, and he asked me... He was like, "Why do you hate Infusionsoft so much?" And I'm like, "I don't hate you! I'm grateful for you! You're the person..." I needed somebody to get me motivated. Otherwise, as a competitor, if I'm just... I'm not here just to make money. That was what inspired. It inspired me. It was the victory, trying to figure out the next person who we're going after. Right? And I told... It's kind of like that scene in Batman, The Dark Knight, where Joker asks Batman, "Why do you hate me?" And he's like, "I don't hate you! You fulfill me! I need you! Without you, there's no me!" Right? And so for me, that was the transition. It was like... I didn't take the competitiveness out of me. I kept it. Everything I did that drove me in wrestling, I kept that. But I focused it over here in business. And so the identity shift wasn't huge. It was just a different game. Right? Same athlete. Same competitive nature. Same everything. But the game was different, and so I had to figure out the game, figure out the rules, figure out the players, figure out the competition, and then make it fun for me. And so for me, that's kind of, I think, how I was able to make that transition. Yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But that's kind of the mindset behind, for me, how I was going to make that transition. And at Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks will show us the actual process to shift identity, which I'm so excited for! Michael: Awesome! Thank you so much! That was really helpful, just listening to your experience and hearing it from someone else. And I like the competitive aspect, and the perseverance that we have as athletes to transition that into entrepreneurship. Russell: Yeah. Well, very cool, man. Thanks for jumping on the show. I appreciate it! Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you, Michael, for being here. And Russell, I think that wraps up our Marketing Secrets podcast today! Russell: How fun! Well, thanks, you guys, all for jumping on and hanging out. We're going to continue to do these. I'm having fun with it so far. So hopefully, you guys are as well. For those who are listening to the recording: If you want to make sure you get on the next live one and maybe get your question answered live, go to clubhousewithrussell.com. That'll redirect you to our clubhouse page. Go follow the room, and we'll do this again soon. Thank you for all of our guest speakers who jumped on: Keenya, Dan, and Myron. I appreciate you guys jumping on and sharing your thoughts, as well. Hopefully, some of the conversations we had were stimulating and helped you think about yourself, think about your charity, think about your funnels, all this stuff. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed it. If you did, let us know! And if you want to hear the recording of this, make sure you subscribe to the Marketing Secrets podcast on any of the platforms. We're there. Probably in the next week or so, it'll go up live there, and you can go and re-listen to all the stuff we talked about. So thank you Yhennifer for all the time and effort you put into it, and everybody else here on the clubhouse team. I'm grateful for everybody. And with that said, I guess we'll see you guys all on the next episode!

Welcome to another guest edition of Marketing Secrets Live! Russell talks to Keenya Kelly about Tick Tock, Myron Golden about challenges, and Dan Henry about high ticket sales. Don't miss this value packed episode! To be on the next Marketing Secrets Live episode, register at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Everyone welcome to the marketing secrets live show. I'm so excited to be here live with you guys. This is kind of a new format we've been doing for our podcast. And if this is your first time on, welcome. If you were listening to the recordings of this later, and you want to come on one of our live shows, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com and come and sign up for the Marketing Secrets Live Clubhouse room. And this is where we're kind of hanging out once a week or so. And it's fun because this format's been different. I've had a chance to bring in speakers and find out their number of marketing secret. Then I have a chance to share the coolest thing I'm thinking about at the time. And then we open up for Q&A at the end. And so those who are live, get your questions ready. We're going to do a Q&A at the end. Again, if you're listening to the recording on the actual podcast, make sure you go and register for the live shows at clubhousewithrussell.com. It'll be a lot of fun. So today we've got a couple of guests I'm going to bring them on here in a second and share their number one marketing secret. But before we do that, of course, we got to lead off with the marketing secrets theme song. So let me queue that up. When we come back, we'll jump right into to our guest panels. So here we go. All right, welcome officially now to the marketing secrets live show. Yhennifer, excited to have you here as always, helping me kind of co-host this and get things kicked off. Looks like our first guest isn't here yet, but I would love if you want to introduce the first guest that we're going to be talking to, and we'll just jump right in if you want to. Yhennifer: Awesome, let's get the party started. Before we introduce our guests, we want to make sure that you guys that are here on this episode, that you click the little plus sign in the bottom and invite your friends. Also, a reminder, we are recording this room and don't forget to follow the speakers on the stage and click the little monopoly house on the top and follow the Marketing Secrets Club here so that you can get a notification where we go live again. So our first guest speaker is miss Keenya Kelly. Kenya is the CEO of You Brand It, a video marketing consulting firm in San Diego, California. She is a strategist. She is the TikTok queen, and she's been a member of the funnel hacking community since 2017. Welcome Keenya and Russell, I'll pass it on to you Russell: Keenya. So excited to have you here since 2017. That's crazy. You've been around for a long time. I've been watching you for a long time closely for the last probably two or three weeks, which has been so much fun. So excited to have you on the show first off and welcome. How are you feeling today? Keenya Kelly: I am feeling super good. I'm actually in Mexico celebrating my 40th birthday. So I'm feeling real good. Russell: Very cool. Congratulations. Happy 40. I hit my 40th last year. So far, I remember when I was a kid, I thought when my parents turned 40, I was like, "They're almost dead." I was really concerned. And now as a 40 year old, I feel like I'm just starting. So it's different when you get older, isn't it. Keenya: It sure is. I'm like, I'm just getting started up in here, you know what I'm saying? Russell: Very cool. Well, what I want to ask you right now. This is the question I ask all the guests here on the Marketing Secrets Live show, is what is your biggest marketing secret that you are doing right now inside of your business? So we can all hear and learn from it. Keenya: Absolutely. So my biggest secret is TikTok. And I know some people are already like, they're like fading out, but don't fade out. I built my business initially from Facebook and Instagram and in 2020, I'm somebody who prays for strategies. And I heard God tell me to get off to TikTok, which I thought was insane, but I was like, "I'm just going to try." I was like, "Maybe I'm just dealing with whatever because of the pandemic." So I get on to TikTok and initially I'm dancing like everybody else. But then it clicked. This is the newest social media platform that marketers are going to run to. And so in the midst of everything that happened in 2020, I just kept creating content. And fast forward a year later, 450,000 followers, we added an additional $300,000 to my business and it's just been incredible. And now I'm this "influencer". And I'm like, "I never thought that I would be an influencer, but now I am." Russell: That's interesting. So you started with doing dances, like a lot of people do in TikTok. I'm curious, what was the transition like? What were some things you did that helped it to grow or helped get the following, actually make money from it? Keenya: For sure. So what happened was that I was going viral with some of the dances and just being my personality. And I ended up seeing somebody, I can't remember who it was that was marketing and they clicked. And I immediately transitioned. I said, I do love to dance. I do love to have fun. I'm going to take some of these trends and start teaching. So I started doing a little bit of dancing, but I would talk while I was dancing or I would have texts on screen. And I started driving people to the link in my bio to jump on my email list, to buy my courses. And I ended up, like I have a book, a business book called Before You Quit Your Job. And I ended up selling way more books on TikTok than I was anywhere else. And so I just kept doing that. I was like, this is a creative platform. Be creative, have fun, but teach in the way that TikTok's community is. And that is what happened. Russell: That's awesome. It's interesting. I'm not a big TikToker yet, but my kids are. And so I remember when I was trying to understand the platform. I said, "I'm just going to watch my kids and see what they're doing and why they're doing it, to understand them." And it was fascinating because my daughter, she started growing her TikTok channel slowly. And I remember at first she would be like, "I got 30 followers. I got 50." She was so excited, and then what she did, this is super interesting. She set up a second profile and there's a name for it. I think it's like a thing that TikTokers do, I don't know. You may know more than me, but she covered up her face, and it was like, people had to guess who she was. So she did these dances where you can't see her face and people started guessing. And that channel blew up to like 50 or 60,000 people. And she kept building towards the big reveal. As soon as I get X amount of people, I'm to reveal who I am. And so she got to that point and then she revealed who she was and she pushed everyone to her main channel. And she had like almost 30,000 people move over there, follow her on her main channel. And now my daughter's like, "I'm an influencer dad." I'm like, "No, not my daughter. No." But it was just that interesting strategy to watch how she did that. How just some of the different techniques and things to start growing. And I think for anybody, especially someone like me who hasn't really gotten good with the platform yet, it's like find people who are using it and just watch them. That's how we started learning YouTube. I started learning other things is just watching how people who do love the platform, what they're doing and how they're doing it. It sounds like you had something similar, you were doing it just for fun. And then you started seeing other people transitioning. Okay. I see how this is going to work now for my business as well. Keenya: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was something because social media always starts out entertaining. It just does. And then it usually starts out with the younger generation. And so when I got there, I was like, "There is something to this." And I slowly started going, "This is going to be the wave of marketing." And now here we are 2021 and Facebook just launched their short video and everything else has short video. Russell: Yeah. Super interesting. Well, awesome. Thanks for coming on the live show and sharing that it makes me want to go... I'm about to head on family vacation. So my goal is to TikTok my daughter at least three times over the next week and a half. So those who want to follow my TikTok, go find me. I'm only like at 500 followers. So go follow me and you'll see me start trying to practice what we're preaching. So thank you Keenya so much for coming on and sharing. Super grateful for you. Keenya: Thank you so much. Yhennifer: Awesome. Thank you, Keenya. You are awesome. I'm so excited that you were here. All right. So now we have Myron Golden. Myron is a high in demand speaker, trainer in areas of sales, marketing, business development. I think he doesn't even need an introduction because I mean, all the funnel hackers here know who he is, but we had to give him this special introduction. He's also a bestselling author. And I don't know if you guys know this, but he's a songwriter and an owner of a record label. Welcome Myron to the marketing secrets podcast. Back to you, Russell. Russell: What's up Myron. How are you doing, man? Myron Golden: What's up Russell? Good to see you brother. Good to see you. I forgot about this call. Don't tell anybody I said that. Russell: You're live right now… Myron: I'm at the golf course. Russell: Are you golfing right now? Myron: I'm at the golf course, but it's all good, I'm here. Russell: Well, thanks for jumping on. Myron: Good to see you bro, always good Russell: We're only on for a minute or so. So well, first off Myron, you, as you know, you're one of my favorite humans on this planet. Just been so grateful for you. The last few years hanging out often has been some of the highlights in my life. So grateful for you. And the biggest thing on the marketing seekers live show. So we can get you back to golfing, but my only question for you is, what is right now in your business the number one marketing secret. Of all the things you're doing, obviously you're doing a lot of things, but if you could say, this is my number one marketing secret right now, what would that be that you can share with everybody? Myron: Well, my number one marketing secret right now is we've got a challenge to a bootcamp. And what we do is we do a five-day challenge. It's $97 for general admission. It's $297 for VIP and we do it to a split offer, which people say you shouldn't do, but it's working really well for us. So if people are making more than 20,000 a month, we send them to our application for our inner circle. If they're making less than 20,000 a month, we send them to the application for our offer mastery coaching. Where we teach people how to create offers and do challenges. And we've got students right now. We just did our first one at the end of February, beginning of March. And we've got one guy from our first challenge who's already done two challenges and done over $300,000. We've got another lady who's never sold anything high ticket before, her very first challenge she did like $24,000. So people are just crushing it. So that's what we're doing. We're doing a challenge to a $21,000 coaching program and or to our inner circle. And it's done for us so far over $2 million this year. That's Russell: That's awesome. It feels like this year has been- Myron: That's my number one secret. Russell: It feels like this year has been the year of challenges for people, which has been really, really fascinating. And people use it for different ways, right? We use challenges, people in software. Other people using challenges, so there are courses. And you're going from challenge straight to super high ticket, which is fascinating. Now you said also your challenge is a paid challenge of friends, is that what you said? Myron: Oh yeah, paid. Russell: Okay. Myron: It's paid, it's $97 for the general admission and 297 for VIP. Russell: And then what's the... Two follow up questions. Number one. What's the name of your challenge? And then is the challenge happening live throughout the week or is it prerecorded or how do you structure that? He's on the golf course, so it's breaking up a little bit, but so we said it is live and then the other question was just, what was the actual name of your challenge? We can go funnel hacking, go sign up for it. Myron: Yeah. So the name of the challenge is the Make More Offers challenge because I teach people the number one challenge, the number one problem, most business owners have. They don't make enough offers. So I teach them to make more offers and to make more money. And so Make More Offers Challenge and yeah, it's a paid challenge. One $97 for the general mission, 297 for VIP. Russell: Awesome. Well, thank you, Myron. Appreciate jumping on. I hear the birds in the background, you should get back to golfing. Thanks for jumping on real quick and sharing your biggest marketing secret. And I'm grateful for you as always. And just as a side note for everyone who's listening, the Make More Offers challenge, that's a cool name. If you think about the people in this game who have the most success, honestly, are the ones who make the most offers, right? They're trying different things. We just did a very fascinating study with our ClickFunnels data, went through man, like one and a half million people have signed up for ClickFunnels trial over time. And it's crazy, if someone joins ClickFunnels and they buy at least one thing from it. It could be a book, it could be a $7 report, it could be anything, their stick rate triples. And so a lot of times you might go, "Well, I just sell one thing." It's like, yeah, but the more offers you make, the better buyers they become. I remember TJ Rohleder who is one of my mentors in direct mail. And he's brilliant marketer, but essentially you can go and you can actually rent his buyer list. Where you can send his buyers your offers in the mail. And I told him like, "Aren't you worried if other people were making offers to your buyers, they're going to quit buying from you?" And he said, "No, no. You're looking at it backwards." He's like the more people buy, he said buyers stay in motion. And the more they buy, the more they'll continue to buy. So he's like, "I'm going to sell my people stuff, but I want other people to sell them stuff as well, because if they're buying somebody else's offer, they're more likely to buy mine as well because buyers like to buy stuff." And he's like, "If they stop buying, that's worse." He's like, "If I don't send them something in the mail each week, if they're not getting other offers, so they're not continuing to buy. They actually cool off and they become worse buyers over time." And so it's fascinating for us looking at the data from seven years now. It's like, if they've purchased anything from me, like a book, anything, they seek three times longer on ClickFunnels than if they just sign up for ClickFunnels and that's it. So make more offers. We can go on like a two hour podcast just about that alone, how powerful it is. But anyway, so it's awesome. So thank you Myron, for sharing all that. Myron: I'll be happy to jump on and do a two hour podcast with you anytime you're ready Russell. Russell: Awesome. We'll have to plan that. Well, thank you Myron so much for jumping on, and this has been fun so far. So we've got two guests down. We've got one more to go. Yhennifer, you want to introduce our next guest? Yhennifer: Yes. Awesome. Let me reset the room really quickly, guys. If you're finding value in this room, please follow the speakers on the panel. Click the little plus sign and invite five friends right there at the bottom. You can also click on the monopoly house at the top where it says Marketing Secrets Live, so that you can follow this club and get a notification when Russell goes live again. All right, the next speaker on up is Dan Henry. Dan is the founder of getclients.com. He's a bestselling author and a eight figure award winner. Welcome Dan to the room today. Dan Henry: Hey, how's it going guys? Russell: Doing awesome. Dan, great to hear from you. Always awesome to hang out and have you on. I would say before we kick this off officially, I think you are probably one of the most colorful characters inside of our community, which makes it fun. Sometimes I get nervous. Sometimes I get excited and back and forth, but always respect and always grateful for you and awesome to have you here. So my question for you that I'm excited to hear your thoughts because you're a deep thinker who goes, sometimes our thoughts counteract each other, which is kind of fun as well. But I'm curious for you right now in your business, in the spot you're at, what is the biggest marketing secret that you're finding right now that's working for you guys? Dan: Well, I've always, as you know, Russell, I've always used polarity to... But that's something I've used for years, and I always say if you make enough noise, all eyes will be on you, make sure you're selling something. And I think a lot of people think that they don't use polarity or if they use polarity they're going to turn off a bunch of people. But that's the thing, is you use polarity in your daily life whether you intend to or not. If you go to church and you walk out of that church, an atheist is going to drive by and be like, "That guy sucks." And vice versa. It's like, if you go to the gym and you're in shape, somebody who's not shape is going to look at you and be jealous. You're polarizing anyway. So you might as well get paid for it. And so of the things that we made a radical, radical shift in our business was what I like to call, and I learned from you, the value ladder. I would call this sort of the reverse value ladder. So we start with high ticket. I pretty much don't build a value ladder until I hit at least one million with a high ticket offer. Because the way I view it, if you're good enough, if your offer is good enough to book calls and close sales and do well, it's the engine, right? The other stuff around it is the fuel that pours into the engine. So what we did was we started selling high ticket only, and it just radically transformed our business. And then I tacked the book on and some low ticket products to fuel it, to scale it even further. And we've been able to, I mean, I'm not on social media that much anymore. I'm not that active anymore, and we've done... We have million-dollar days, we have million-dollar weeks. I just launched a hundred-thousand-dollar offer within like hours, landed a client for that. I mean, and everything else just supports that. And I think a lot of people don't realize that there are two segments of the market. There are low ticket buyers and there are high ticket buyers. Low ticket buyers either won't buy your high ticket ever, or they require multiple products, multiple touch points, months, and months, or even years of following to ascend them to be a high ticket buyer. And that's true and that works, but there's also a segment of the market that are already high ticket buyers. That are ready to pay you a high ticket price right now, and nobody markets to them. Because almost every book, almost every guru out there, almost every direct response marketer, talks about low ticket and the language of low ticket buyers. So those high ticket buyers they're already ready to buy. It's literally a blue ocean, but most people don't know how to talk to them. So what I did is I literally deleted all my low ticket stuff. I started speaking to the high ticket buyers first. I still use polarity, that still works. And then once I've tapped into that fully and the machine is oiled, then I tacked in the low ticket stuff. To take those low ticket buyers and turn them into high ticket buyers. But going after high ticket buyers first as a priority changed everything Russell: Awesome. I actually a hundred percent agree with that. It's interesting. One of my biggest fears when I teach people the value ladder is number one, is that they don't do anything until they've got all the offers and all the value ladder built out, which is the wrong thing. Number two, they start with the, I'm going to go write a book then, which is the hardest thing, as you know. You've written a book too. Of all the things, it's the hardest, and it's the hardest to make profitable. Whereas if someone leads with a higher ticket, a webinar or a high ticket offer, you have more room to mess things up, right? Because you sell one 10,000 or 20,000 whatever client, you can do a lot of things wrong. You can mess up on the ads and mess up on the copy and everything you used in one person and it cleans up all the mess, right? And so typically, like you said, it's easier to get some of that to work out of the gate and then scale-out to call them a cup of whatever that is. And then coming back and saying, "Hey, I need more ways to bring people into this offer." And that's when a book offer does well, or things like that. Hormozi did the same thing, he had his high ticket thing, killing it. And then he wrote a book and then his book offer, if you guys go through his book offer, he doesn't have anything else to say. So you buy the book, and the next page is like, cool you bought the book. Apply now for the high ticket coaching. And he did find that he was able to get more buyers coming in that way, but it was leading with the high ticket. And I think for most people, especially if you're getting started, this is one of the easier, faster ways. I think the biggest problem people have a lot of times is just the belief that they can actually sell high ticket when they're first beginning, which is probably more of the problem. But man, the metrics and the math make way more sense when you lead with that, for sure. Dan: That's who got me into high ticket originally, it was Hormozy. I met him backstage at a ClickFunnels event and he's like, "Dan, how much money did you make this month?" And I'm like, "One million." And he's like, "How much did you spend?" I'm like, "700,000." And he's like, "Cool. I made like two million and I spent like a hundred grand." I'm like, "You must be so good at Facebook ads." And he's like, "No, I suck at Facebook ads. My cheapest offer is 16 grand." And my mind just exploded when he said that. And ever since then, everything I've done has been revolving around that. But I want to make a point. You said that your biggest fear was that people do the value ladder wrong. And I think that's a point that everybody needs to hear. There's a difference between learning what to do, how to do it and how to do it well, how to execute it. And I will tell you, most people funnel hacking, value ladder. They do it wrong. They want to build out the whole thing first or instead of modeling someone's funnel, they just go and copy it word for word. And they don't realize that there's what to do, there's how to do it and how to do it well. I think that's a big thing, is the stuff you teach. I mean, you were the person that got me started in this game. I made $25 million and it has literally started from the moment I saw you on an ad going, "Buy my dotcom secrets book." And I bought that book, and now what, I don't know, five, whatever, how many ever years later, four years, five years, I've made $25 million. And I'll tell you that if I were to say one thing, that is the difference between people who make it and people who don't, is a lack of comprehension. Nobody gives effort into comprehending what somebody says. They just look at it and go, "Okay, cool." And then they don't really go, "Okay, why does this work? What's the science behind this?" And they just take a superficial action. So I think your stuff is amazing, Russell. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here right now. But I do think people need to put more effort into understanding how to do it well. Russell: A hundred percent. Yep. People look to service level. There's a method to this and if you go deeper, you can see why it works, not just how it works so. Well, awesome, man. Well, thank you, Dan. Thank you, Keenya. Thank you, Myron, for jumping on the first half of the Marketing Secrets Live show. For those who are on live, this is fun. So we're going to have two more sessions of this live podcast. If you're listening to the recording of this, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com. Go and register and that way in the future, when we go live, you'll get notified on your phone. And you come hang out with us live and have some fun.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part three of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you've been enjoying this series so far. This is The Roundtable of World Changers, a conversation I had with Matt and Caleb Maddix, and a whole bunch of young entrepreneurs, who are literally out there trying to change the world. This is part three of a four part episode, because the conversation went for three or four hours. And so, this episode's also going to be about 40 minutes long, and it's the next set of questions they asked me. And if you've listened to the last two, you know that these guys ask a lot of questions, in a lot of different directions, and angles, and went all over the place. And I think this time is probably 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning. And so, the questions started going from everywhere, from business, to relationships, to families, and a whole bunch more. So I hope you enjoy this next episode. Here's some of the bullet points of things you're going to learn about. We talked about the 10 commandments of marketing. I talked about my very first mentor, and a thing he taught me, not just to make money in the short term, but how to build a business that now has lasted me for almost two decades. I talk about one of my friends and mentors, Daegen Smith and something that he taught me. It was so simple, yet it's been the key to help me get thousands of people a day to join my email list. We talked about leadership, delegation, scheduling. We talk about, as you're building a team, understanding people's unique abilities. Talked about how much time you spend thinking about the future. Talked about proximity with billionaires. We also talked about how to balance your business and married life, so you can be a good husband and a good father, which is something that I stress about all the time. We talked about a principle that I learned from Stacey and Paul Martino, that has been one of the most powerful things I've learned, which is called demand-relationship. I talk about that. We talk about some relationship tricks, for those who are either married or getting married. Some of the newlyweds, and the engaged couples, were asking some questions about that. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing some of my tricks. We talked about knowing what your values are, and your priorities. Talked about being vulnerable, and being honest, versus staying positive through challenges. We talked about some of the biggest principles and things I learned from Tony Robbins, including how to change your state whenever you need to. And we talked about my 12 year relationship with Tony Robbins, and all the things behind that. We talked about... I don't want to spoil any more. You guys, this is a fun interview. And hopefully, you've been enjoying these so far. So with that said, we're going to cut to the theme song. When we come back, we're going to take you guys immediately back into this conversation. This is, again, The Roundtable of World Changers, part three of four. Matt Maddix: Let's say there was a Russell Brunson 10 commandments. You know how God had one. Russell: Thou shall build a list. Matt: Yeah. How high is this in the 10 commandments? Russell: My first mentor, Mark… Matt: And what would be some of the Russell Brunson... Let's come up with some of them. Like, "Thou shalt..." Russell: We need some stone tablets. Matt: "To all the funnel hackers, thou shalt and thou shall not." I want to hear- Russell: That would be a fun presentation, actually. Matt: Yeah, that would be, actually. Caleb Maddix: That would be. Russell: That would be cool. Matt: Dude, you need to do that. Russell: Come back from the mountain, we have 10 things. Matt: Yeah, seriously. Caleb: Wow. That'd be awesome. Matt: No, the five 'thou shalts', and like, "Thou shall..." and then- Russell: "Thou shall..." Matt: ..."Thou shall not, no matter what..." What would some of those be? Russell: That could be a really cool presentation, actually. Well, so I would say, in my first venture was Mark Joyner, and he was the one... So in context, in history, 18 years when I started, Mark Joyner... I don't think it's probably known. He's brilliant. But he built a company, and sold it off. And at the very end of his career as a coach person, I got to meet him and get to know him a little bit. But I remember, at that time, Google AdSense was this thing that came. And so, if any of you guys are old enough, just try and remember the Google AdSense days. It was insane. They were software. You click a button on software, it would pop out of site, pop out another site. And these sites would make anywhere from 100 to $1000 a day. And you just keep clicking this button, it would pop out another site. And so, people were making $1 million a month. They had teams in the Philippines, that these guys just clicking the button to build the software. It was just... But it was all fake. But it was tons of money. Insane amounts of money. I had friends making so much money. And shiny object, very shiny object, the most sexy shiny object of all time. You click a button, you can make $1 million. That was it, that was the pitch. And it was true. Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For so... Everyone I knew. Can you imagine that? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: If I go back in time, 18 years ago, I would move to the Philippines, I would hire everybody, and we would just click buttons. And I would've been- Caleb: Wow. Russell: ...a billionaire. It was- Caleb: Wow. Russell: It was insane. That's how Google got people adopting the AdSense program. So people would put ads on every single site, every single everything. And so, I'm getting in this game, I'm seeing this, and I'm morons making insane amounts of money. And I was like, "Ah!" And Mark had just become my mentor, the very first time, and he's like, "That's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like, "But this guy's a moron. He made $1 million last month clicking a button. No strategy, no brains, no nothing." He's like, "I know, but it's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like- Matt: Wow. Russell: But- Matt: Seriously? Russell: "He's clicking a button. Building lists is hard." He's like, "Build a list." I'm like... And I remember fighting him and fighting him, he's just like, "Dude, trust me. I've been on cycle. It's going to go away. Just focus and focus." And I was so upset, but I listened because I do that. One thing I pride myself on, I'm very coachable. Coach tells me something, I do it. I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. Matt: I love it. Russell: They tell me to do it, I do it, right? So I was like, "Ah, but there's free money in piles-" Matt: Even when it's hard- Russell: "All right." Matt: ...you do it. Russell: So I did it. And sure enough, I was doing that, and doing that, within six months, this things collapsed, disappeared, destroyed people's lives. Because you're making $1 million a month clicking buttons, what do you do? Especially as a young kid. Matt: Spending that much money. Russell: You're buying Lambos, and Ferraris, and helicopters, and pilots, and girls, and insane amounts of money. And then it disappears overnight. Devastating, ruined these guys, ruined them, so many people. Matt: There's no skill behind that at all. Russell: Yeah. And I had a list, and I just coasted through it. Right? And I've looked at the SEOs, every single up and down, up and down, through the years, and I just listened to Mark and just focused on building my list, focused on building it, and- Matt: So you still feel that as strong today, as when you heard it? Russell: 100%. Matt: Even then. Russell: 100%. That's one of our KPIs. How many people doing lists today? Every single day. Matt: Really? Everyday? Russell: Everyday. Because I did it for a long time- Matt: Even now, you're saying? Russell: 100%, everyday. John Parkes everyday sends me a number. “How many people joined our list yesterday?” That's all I want to know. Caleb: What's your guys' email open rates? Russell: It fluctuates. 20 ish percent. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Around there. But it was funny because I remember, I had forgotten that lesson after a while. And if you guys know Daegen Smith, Daegen, he's getting back in the game now. He's brilliant. But I remember I had a list, and I was my money off of it. I wasn't focusing on it. And I remember he asked me a question, he said, "How many..." It wasn't, "How many people are on your list?" Because that's what most people ask, "How big's your list?" But he asked me a different question, which input output, right? Matt: Yeah. Russell: The question was, "How many people joined your list today?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Go look right now." I'm like, "Okay." So I log in, and look at the thing, it was like 12. And I was like, "12?" And I was like, "Is that good or bad? I don't know." And he's like, "Let me show you mine." And he showed me his, and it was like 1400. And I was like, "You had 1400 people join today?" He's like, "Yeah." "Wait, how'd you do that?" He's like, "I just look at it everyday. And when I look at it everyday, somehow it grows." And I was like- Matt: Wow. Russell: "Okay." So then, everyday, after I log in and look at my thing, it was like 12, I'm like, "Ah." In my head, I'm like, "Fricken Daegen had 1400. I only 12." Caleb: Yeah. Matt: Wow. Russell: And also, I was like, "What do I do to get people to join the list?" Matt: Yeah, start optimizing. Russell: And then, your mind starts thinking differently, and all of a sudden you start focusing on it. And it's crazy. I can't tell you how many entrepreneurs, that have been in my world, who have gone up and then come down. And what happens, mostly, is they do something, they build a big list, they stop adding fuel to the fire, they have this list, they sell things to the list, the list atrophies, and eventually starts shrinking and dying. And then, they don't know how to build lists, the business crashes and dies. Matt: I hope you guys are really listening. Really. I mean, he's- Caleb: That's powerful. Matt: ...saving your life right now. Russell: The question, the goal, every single day, is that, because it's a fuel to your fire. And what happens was you stop putting fuel on the fire, and it doesn't die immediately. So you're like, "Oh, I've turned off Ads, so I'm good. But I'm just going to focus on emails, let's focus that." But just every email you send out, your list atrophies, shrinks, dies. And then, eventually, it'll just die. And so, yeah, if you're not consistently, constantly feeding the list, every single day- Matt: And once you have the list, what's the biggest mistake people make with their list? Russell: They don't email it. Matt: Yeah. Russell: They're scared to... You think it's too much emails. It's not, it's the opposite. It's that they don't email. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Minimum of three times a week. Closer to everyday. Matt: Wow. Russell: If you talk to Daegen, it's twice a day, everyday. Matt: Really? Caleb: What other KPIs do you have sent to you every single day? Russell: I want to know how much we made yesterday, striped. Because first off, it's cool to know. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: But second off, also it's like, I want that number to be bigger everyday. So it's like, actual money in the thing, how many people joined the list today, and how many books are sold, how many ClickFunnels members. Those are the ones for me. Our teams have other KPIs they focus on. But those are the ones I care about. Matt: So out of 30 days, when you hear the numbers, how often are you pissed and how often are you like, "Yeah."? Russell: Nowadays, it's always pretty good. Matt: Nowadays, it's like, "Woo." Russell: Because it might go up or down a little bit, but the numbers are big enough, that it's just like, "That's so crazy." I remember... Anyway. I remember just the growth of ClickFunnels, because you know Stripe dings every day with your numbers. I remember when we started going, it got to the point where it's like $10,000 a day, I was like, "$10,000 a day is insane. That's just so cool." And then, it got to a point where it's like $20,000 a day, and then 30, and then $50,000 a day, and then $100,000 a day, and then 150, then 200, 250, 300. I'm just like, "This is insane to me, that this is a daily thing that come..." it was just... Anyway, that's when it got just weird. And it makes me mad because Todd made a commitment to me, that as soon as we passed $500,000 a month in sales, he'd move to Boise. Matt: And he didn't yet? Russell: No. So... Matt: You were out of there already. Russell: And then, I was like, "Well, we have $500,000 a day." And then, he still hasn't come. So I don't know. Some day. Do you think Todd will ever move to Boise? Speaker 4: Plus I'm curious if I could pop in to ask a question. Russell: Yeah, feel free. Speaker 4: I've always wanted to ask someone of your stature, that's done as much as you have, impacted as much people as you have, and really built the business that you have. So I'm curious on your take on leadership, building a team, delegating, and your schedule and how you go about scheduling your day, and prioritizing what's important for you, as a business owner, and what you delegate to your employees and their responsibilities as well. So leadership, delegating, and scheduling. Russell: Good question. It's interesting because I would say I'm not the best leader on my team, by any stretch. And so, it was interesting because I spent the first four or five years with ClickFunnels as the CEO, trying to do my best with it. But it wasn't my unique ability, is leadership. I feel like I'm good at leading a community, but I struggle a lot more with employees and teams, internally. And so, about a year ago or so, I handed the reins to Dave Woodward, to be the CEO of ClickFunnels. And he's been amazing. Man, what he's done inside the company has been awesome. And I think a big part of it is understanding, at least for me personally, I was trying to be a leader, and trying to develop that, but I wasn't the best at it. And I think sometimes we think it's always got to be us. Like, "It's my company, I got to be the CEO. I got to be the leader. I got to do these things." It's understanding that a lot of times there's people who are really good. Who's the best you could find to be that? Or any part of our business. You know what I mean? It's a big part of it. The second thing is, if you've studied Dan Sullivan at all, one of his biggest things is unique ability. That's the thing. What's your unique ability? What's everybody's unique ability? And I think when you start a company, it's tough because it's like everyone's in charge of everything, right? I'm the CEO, but I'm also taking out the garbage, I'm also doing... everyone's Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: ...doing a little bit of everything, which is cool. When you're scrappy in the beginning, that's important, and everyone's doing that. But as you grow, that starts hindering you more and more and more, where we had people who are insanely talented, who if I could just get them doing this thing, 100% of the time... And that's when it got to the point with ClickFunnels, is that my unique abilities are writing, are being in videos, are building funnels, doing the... Those things are my unique abilities. Caleb: Engineering. Russell: Yeah. And I was spending maybe 10% of my time on that, and 90% of the time in meetings, and trying- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...coordinate people, and leadership. And it was stressful and it was hard. Matt: And you were draining. You were probably drained doing that. Russell: Yeah. And I was miserable, that was just... I wasn't good at it. Not feeling good, like, "Ah, I'm not getting through to people. I can't figure this out." But I felt like I had to own, I had to be the guy, I had to do the thing because this is my baby, this is my business. And the last 12 months has been crazy, because I handed it to someone who actually is good at that, that is his unique ability. And I'm watching company structure, and meetings, and KPIs, things that I was never super good at doing, and consistently having it all happening now. And now, I'm in the marketing department again, and I'm building funnels. People are like, "What do you do all day?" I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. "No, but you have funnel builder..." No, I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. I didn't start this business because I wanted to be a CEO of a big huge company. I did it because I love building funnels. I'm an artist, when it comes down to it, this is my art. Matt: Wow. Russell: And that's what I get to do now. And it's amazing. So Dan's got Fridays we book out, and we spend videos, he's got a whole bunch of YouTube videos, we film five or six YouTube vlogs last week, on Friday. So we have that times blocked out to do that, right? I'm writing my next book right now, so I've got my mornings blocked out to write books, because that's when my mind's got not a million things so I can do that. And then, after morning comes in, after I do my wrestling practice, I come in. And that's my teams there, and that's when we're building funnels. I got my designer and my copywriter, the people, and I get to facilitate that. And I feel like the... What's the guy in the orchestra, the maestro? Caleb: Conductor? Russell: Yeah, like I'm the conductor, I'm conducting all these talented people. And everyone's bringing... And I'm alive, and it's exciting. And at night, I can't sleep, because I'm excited again. And so, I think that's the biggest thing, is taking the pressure off yourself if you're not the best leader. That's okay. What are you the actual best at? And success, in business, I think, at least for me, I always thought I had to be the best at everything. And it's the opposite, where it's like, "How do you focus on the thing you're best at? And get the rest of the people around you." Speaker 4: Yeah. And it gets- Matt: And it's... You had to have been willing to let go of your ego, man. Or you wouldn't have been able to grow so much. If you try to do it all yourself... Caleb: So I have a question. How much time do you spend actually thinking about the future? Because it seems like, from what you've told us, you're very dialed in and obsessed on the process, and that's how you've gotten to where you are, up to this point, because you're in love with the game. How much of your time do you spend thinking about the future, and what's on the horizon next year, five years, 10 years? Does that cross your mind? Or what does that look like? Russell: It's interesting, I can't remember who was talking to about this... The further out you look, the fuzzier it gets. You know what I mean? And so, I think for me, it's like we have... I know where I want to go, but the in between is really, really fuzzy, right? It's hard to know. And so, it's like I know... For me, the last big boat was $100 million, the next one's a billion. So we know there's the thing. But it's so far from... I don't know the steps to get there. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it's more like, "Well, here's where we're at." In fact, that was my... We had a chance, last month, to go spend a day with Tony Robbins, and we each had a chance to ask him one question. So that was literally my question, just like... Matt: What was your question? Russell: My question... It'll be a blog soon. Not yet though. No, but it was basically like, "We've gotten to this point, and I know to get to the next goal, the things we've been doing are great and they got us to this point, but I have to think differently to here. I don't know how to think differently. How do you think... It's not another book I'm... Is it a book? How do I think differently?" And what Tony said, that was... it's a very... He said a lot of things, but one of the big things was like, "Proximity is power," like, "You have to be in proximity with people who have already accomplished the thing that you're trying to do." And it was interesting because I look at the path of how I grew ClickFunnels, I did that 100%. I was like, "All right, who are the..." and we found the people, got proximity, and then grew it to this point. So eventually, we kind of coded out of the people who I was aware of. So I asked Tony, I'm like, "Well, where would you go to?" And he's like, "Well, if it was me," he's like, "Who's built the billion dollar company?" He's like, "Marc Benioff." And he started naming all these different billionaires. And this and that, all these things. And I was just like, "I never even assumed those people could... I could be..." it seems so far away. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's..." Having a proximity to those people, and start thinking differently, because I don't know the journey but they've done it. Because someone in our world, and like, "How do [inaudible 00:16:13]?" I'm like, "This is literally a 13 minute project. There you go. [inaudible 00:16:16]." It's like I've done it so many times, it's not hard, right? But for them, it's like this is the rocket science to figure it out. And then the same way with these guys who have built billion dollar companies. So now it's trying to proximity to those people, and trying to get around them, and trying to figure out the journey. So the first thing we did, literally, I got out with Tony, Tony gave the answer to the question, and I knew the first guy I needed to get into proximity with. So I texted Dave, Dave called him up, we brought him on retainer. And now, we've got him an hour a week, to get on the phone with him and just ask him all of our questions. And have him introduce us all the different players at that next level. So a lot of it's that. Dave, who's the CEO, was very focused on all the... He's very much like, "Okay, first, to get to this goal, we have to have everyone here, here, here. These are the percentages, the numbers, all the..." Those things stress me out, I hate spreadsheets. He's always got spreadsheets. But he comes back with all the spreadsheets, I was like, "All I need to know from you is... Because I'm going to be building a funnel. What's the goal? What do you need from me to be able to do that?" He's like, "We need more ClickFunnels trials." Like, "Done. I can... Okay. That's where I'm going to focus my energy." And then, it's like, now I can creative on that piece, because I know this is the metric that I can do, with my skillset, to drive it. And everybody's got a metric, right? The traffic team, everybody's got a metric. But for me personally, it's like the only thing I actually affect in a short term, micro, and then I can focus all the creativity and effort on that, while trying to figure out how to shift my mind set to be bigger, to... Caleb: If Marc Benioff offered you $1 billion for ClickFunnels, what would you say? Speaker 4: Good question. Russell: I'd ask him for five. Matt: Good response! Rob: Can I ask you a question, outside of business? Matt: You asking a question? Oh. Rob: Yeah. Matt: Oh, go ahead. Rob: So I remember you were talking about your wife earlier, with how you wanted to get her the couch. Me and my fiance actually met at ClickFunnels, at your event. Matt: Yeah. Rob: So- Matt: ClickFunnels wedding. Russell: No way. Rob: So what I'm curious about is- Russell: Am I going to be the best man at the wedding? Caleb: I told you, you've got to come, I'm like, "You've got to invite Russell." Rob: So what I wanted to ask you is, obviously you run a nine figure company, and there's a lot that goes into that, how do you balance with, let's say, number one, your wife and then your kids as well? And then, what is your secret to a really successful marriage, that's worked for you? Matt: Dude, what- Rob: I think that's something that many entrepreneurs have good marriages that don't really get asked about. So I was just curious about that. Matt: Yeah. Russell: So I hear three questions in there, right? So balance, happy wife... What was... There was a third one? Caleb: Kids. Rob: Yeah, just balancing it, running a company. I mean, you do all these things, you also have a wife, you have kids. Russell: Yeah. So I would say a couple things. So number one is balance is this thing that we all, for some reason, in our mind, we all seek after. But everything great in my life has come from times of radical imbalance. When I wanted to become a wrestler, I wasn't a great wrestler because I was balanced, it was because I became radically imbalanced in that thing. Matt: Dang. Russell: It became the most important thing in my life, and everything else suffered. But I had to do it to be considered successful. When I met my wife, we didn't create a great relationship because we were balanced, I became radically imbalanced. And all my time and effort and focus was on her. And that's why it became great. ClickFunnels, same way. We built ClickFunnels, I was not balanced. We had to become radically imbalanced for a season, to focus actually to get... So that's the thing to understand. In anything great in life, you can't do it in a point of balance. It's radical imbalance that causes greatness. Matt: And that's golf. Russell: And so, you got to be okay with that. But it can't be for forever. It's got to be something that goes, and it comes and goes. Because people who get radically imbalanced for a long time, they can lose their family, they can lose their kids. Rob: Was there a point where you had to tell your wife, "Hey, this is what I really want to do."? Russell: A lot. She had to- Rob: And she had to just- Russell: ...be on board with- Rob: ...get on board. Russell: She had to get on board, yeah. And if she wasn't, I had to say, "Okay, what's more important?" If it was her, then I had to say no to that. And there's been many opportunities in my life I've had to say no to. Rob: What's that dynamic like, being that guys are together, just as far as working out just normal little things? Russell: So I- Rob: Just decisions, those kind of things. Russell: Yeah, well, marriage, you're going to find out, it's hard. Just so fully aware. No one told me that, going into it. I was like- Matt: Yeah. Russell: I was like, "This is going to be amazing. This is going to be the greatest thing in the world." And it is, it's awesome. But man, it is way harder than I thought. Rob: Just to be a person. Russell: Yeah, someone's... I, actually, I would highly recommend Stacey and Paul Martino have a course that my wife and I have gone through the last year, and it's amazing. There's a principle they teach about demand-relationship. If you just go through their... They have a 14 day quick start, it's like $100. But if you just learn the principles of demand-relationship, what they teach. The biggest game changer in a relationship I ever... Of all the things I've studied... Rob: Why? Russell: It is amazing. Rob: What was your take-away? Russell: The principle of demand-relationship is that, throughout history and society, the way that most of us get things done is that... So in a relationship, there's a power player, and there's someone less, right? And if I want my wife to do something, I'm going to demand, like, "I need you to do these things." Right? And that works, until the other person has the ability to leave. So prior to divorce being a thing, men, throughout history, have had a dominant relationship over women. They used to manage and get what they want, and women couldn't leave. And so, it was a horrible thing, right? But they couldn't leave. As soon as divorce happened, boom, it started happening. Right? When parents come over to their kids and give demand-relationship, as soon as the kids are able to leave, it breaks. And then, breaks his relationships. And so, that's the problem, is that for the last 5000 years, that's been our DNA, that men force women to do these different things. And that's what the demand-relationship is. Their whole training, their whole course, everything they teach is the opposite of demand-relationship. How do you create a relationship, where transformation happens through inspiration, not through demanding, and chasing. And it's tough because, for all of us, especially men, it's been so ingrained in our DNA that if we want something, we... That's how we do business, how we do things. But in a relation, especially an intimate relationship, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. And that's what we all do. So it'd be worth... I'm hoping she writes a book some day, because it's... In my new book, I have a whole chapter, actually, teaching her framework on in demand-relationship. What's that? Rob: Were you high school sweethearts? Russell: College, we met in college. Rob: So she was with you before you started... Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...and had the huge success- Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...basically. Russell: Yeah. Rob: What was that transition like, from you guys, I guess, being... struggling, and you guys stay together- Matt: Good questions, Rob. Rob: ...to now- Russell: His mindset's on this. Rob: Yeah. Russell: Going into it. Rob: What is that like? I'm just curious, because I mean people don't really talk about this, I guess, a lot. Caleb: Relationship genius. Russell: Yeah. And it's different, because some relationships, both the people are in the business, some aren't. My wife's not involved in the business at all. She... Rob: Oh, okay. Russell: ...doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to be part of it. And that's okay. It's like sometimes that's been the biggest blessing for me, sometimes it's been hard. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: Right? Sometimes I see the power couples, who are both in the business, and it's really, really cool. But I ask them, and they're like, "Sometimes it's a great blessing, sometimes it's really hard." So there's pro's and con's both ways. But I think the biggest part is just, this has been good for our relationship, and at first we didn't always have this, but it was like... Just figuring out how to get... You both have to have that same end goal, otherwise you're fighting against each other, right? And so, when we were building ClickFunnels and stuff, it was hard at first, because she didn't really... She's like, "What are you guys doing? You spend all this time and..." didn't understand it. And it was tough because I was trying to explain it. And luckily, for me, is that Todd was part of this too, and his wife was kind of struggling. So they had each other to kind of talk through it. But it wasn't until the very first Funnel Hacking Live, where... Because my wife had never been to one of my events before, anything we'd really... She knew what kind of we did, but not really. And she came to Funnel Hacking Live, the very first one. And she didn't come down at first, because she didn't realize what was happening. And she was doing some stuff, and then, she came down with one of her friends and walked in the back of the room, and saw all the stuff. And she started just crying. She was like, "Oh, this is what you're... I had no idea this is what was happening, and what was..." And then, it became real for her. And that was such a huge blessing for me, because now, the next time, it was like, "We have to work hard for this." Or, "We're planning for..." whatever, she was able to see this is the fruits, and like, "Oh, that's why you're doing it." Now, if you notice, my wife's, every Funnel Hacking Live, front row. She doesn't understand a word we're saying, but she's there, she's paying attention, because she's like, "Look at all the people, and their lives are changing, and impacting." And now, it's different, where when I got to do work, work late nights, or whatever, she sees the vision, and she's on board with it. So it makes so much easier. The other secret I learned is if I tell her, if it's like 05:00 at night, I'm like, "Crap, I got to stay late tonight." And I call her at 05:00 at night, nothing good can come from that. It's better if you just go home, right? If I know Wednesday night, I'm going to be working late, I tell her Monday. Like, "Hey, Wednesday night, there's a good chance I'm going to be late." And then, if I tell her that, she's totally cool with it, right? But you don't tell them the day of. It'll destroy your marriage more than anything. Matt: That's good wisdom. Russell: The other secret, this secret don't put on camera, I don't want my wife to... Matt: Is that right? Russell: Yeah, if I have any inclination that people are coming to town, or something's happening, I always like, "Just so you know, next week, Matt and Caleb are coming to town. There's a good shot we might go to dinner at night, just so you're fully aware." And she's like, "Cool." And then, it's fine. The other secret, this is the real one. So don't share this outside this room. Speaker 4: This is the off camera one. Russell: Yeah. So especially after... For my wife and I... So we started having kids, the same time I started this business, right? And so, I'm traveling, I'm going to events. And she's at home with the kids. And so, we never traveled before, so I'm going on these vacations, I'm meeting these cool people, I'm in hotel rooms. So every night, I'm getting back, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm like, "Okay, I met so and so, and then..." all these things I'm so excited, so pumped about these things. And I'm telling her about stuff, and she's at home with twin babies, miserable, tired, horrible, feet hurt, body hurt. And I'm out having the time of my life. Matt: Yeah. Russell: And I'm thinking she's going to be pumped for me, right? Matt: Right. Russell: No. And for probably a year or so, I was just like... And then, one day, I remember I'm at some event, and I get cornered by people. And then, introverted Russell's like... anxiety, and it was horrible. And somebody cornered me in the bathroom, and asking me questions while I'm peeing. And it wasn't even... At least, sometimes, most of the time, they fake pee next to you, so at least it's not awkward. He was sitting next to me, watching me pee. I'm like, "Can you at least fake pee?" And so, anyway... It was so bad. And I got home that night, and I call her on the phone, and I was just like, "It was horrible." I went off about how horrible it was, and I was miserable. And she's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." But then, she was cool. It was awesome. And I was like, "I didn't get in trouble." And so, the next time I went out, I got home that night, call her, I was like, "Oh, it was horrible. My feet hurt, my back hurts." Anyway, and I've told so many people this, entrepreneurs and friends, who do that, and they shift... Because they don't want to hear you're having this... Anyway, is this truly good or not? I don't know. It saved my marriage. Matt: Is it true? Russell: Literally saved my marriage, and it saved so many of my friends, who… so many of friends, who had the same thing. They want to hear the stories, but not in the moment. When you come back home later, you tell the stories, they love it. But in the moment, when they're miserable, and you're having fun, it is not... First time with Tony Robbins, when I walked on fire, I call her that night, I'm like, "I just walked on fire. Waaa!" And I hear the kids screaming in the background, and she was angry. And I was like, "Huh." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm sending you to walk on fire next month." I sent her to walk on fire, and then she was on fire. But it was like... Caleb: She's like, "No." Russell: Later, she wants to hear, but not in the moment, because it's just like... Anyway, so- Rob: Yeah. Russell: ...that was- Rob: Makes sense. Russell: ...life changing for... Anyway, so... And then, the other thing is just you have to understand what your values are. I learned this from Tom Bilyeu at a level that was fascinating, recently. But- Caleb: Who was that? Russell: Tom Bilyeu, he runs Impact Theory. Caleb: Oh, okay. Rob: Impact Theory. Caleb: Gotcha. Russell: But he writes out his values, but he prioritizes them. So his number one value is his wife, number two... And he has the values written out. And so, when a conflict comes in place, or he gets asked to speak at a huge event, speak for the Queen of England, or whatever, but it's the same weekend as his wife wants something. He's like, "My wife trumps the value... 100%, she trumps it. So the answer's no, and it's not hard for me to say no." Caleb: Wow. Russell: And so, it's figuring it out for yourself. What are your values? Personally, with your family, the wife, everything like that. And you define them, and then it's like there's no question. That's what hard, is when you value something here, and your spouse values something differently, and the conflict of that is what causes the fights, right? But if you get on the same page, like, "Look, this is number one, two..." You have these things, then it makes it easier to navigate those things, because it's like, "No, I understand this is one of the values we have together, as a couple, you should go do that thing." Or whatever the thing might be. So anyway... Caleb: That's awesome. Russell: But marriage is one of the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding things, at the same time. So it's worth it, but it's a ride. Go through demand-relationship, man. That's- Rob: That's a great point. Russell: ...so good. Speaker 4: I got a question. Rob: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4: So two big things that I heard from you, amongst your story, you were talking this positivity. When you were doing great at something, or you learned something, you're so excited about it, you're so positive, but then there's this other part of you that's very vulnerable. Russell: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Speaker 4: And so, you experience anxiety, or you have challenging days, or you're discouraged. How do you find the balance between those, of being vulnerable and being honest with how you're feeling, versus, "Hey, this is a challenge. I'm an entrepreneur, I can overcome this."? Matt: Right. Speaker 4: What's the balance? Russell: Yeah. That's good. One of the... Everyone who's met Tony has a story about how Tony's changed their life. But one of the biggest things that I... There's three or four things that I got from Tony, the very first time I went to his event and I heard him speak, that had a huge impact on me. One of the biggest ones was state control, understanding that. Have you ever heard him talk about the triad and things like that? Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: I'd never heard that before, and I remember watching him do these things on people in the audience. And it was fascinating. He took a lady, who was... He picked somebody in the audience who was suicidal, and he's like... It was the weirdest thing. And he talked about the triad, right? There's three things that change your state, right? There's your language, there's your focus, and there's your physiology, right? So he takes someone, he's like, "I need someone who's suicidal." He takes this beautiful girl. I remember, we were up in Toronto, so then he takes this girl, and he's like, "I need you to get depressed. Not a little bit depressed, clinically suicidal." She's like, "What?" He's like, "Just get there in your mind. Whatever it takes, get dark." And you see her state change, right? And he keeps pushing her, and keep pushing her, and he gets her to this point. And anyway, it's crazy I'm watching this. And I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm watching him do this to this girl, getting her to a point... And soon, she's bawling her eyes out and everything. And he's like, "You got to get deeper. Get darker. More miserable." All this stuff. And you see him change this girl's state. And all of a sudden it stopped. And finally, it seemed like forever, finally he stops and he's like, "Everyone look at her. Watch her. Look at this." He's like, "What do you notice? What's her physiology?" You see her body, you see tears, and all this stuff. And you see her just broken. And then, he's like, "What do you say?" And he goes through the whole triad with her. And he shows that. And he's like, "Now I'm going to show you how quickly you can shift this." To the point where it's like... Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he shifts it, and he starts taking her back through, shifting the physiology, shifting her shoulders, shifting everything, shifting her meanings, shifting focus, shifting what she's saying. And he gets this girl, within three or four minutes, to literal ecstasy, it was crazy watching this. And you see her, where she's laughing... the opposite side of it. And I'd never seen somebody like that, the flip of emotions, how easy it was, by just shifting these three things in her. And it had such a profound impact on me. Caleb: Is there video of that? Russell: Not maybe the one I saw, but he does it at every UPW, he does it... I'm sure there's YouTube videos of it, as well. But if you type the triad, I think he calls it the triad or state control, things like that, you see it happen. But I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I never realized that we had control over that. I thought my feelings were my feelings." Like, "Here's your feeling." Like, "Okay, crap, this is the feeling I have today." And after experiencing that, I was like, "I could actually change this." I didn't know that. And it's interesting because I think sometimes when we're depressed, or we're sad, or we have these things, I think some of us like it. I've had times before, I don't want to be happy. I'm enjoying feeling miserable. And sometimes, I sit in there because I enjoy, because we do, it's weird. It's messed up. But I felt that. I'm like, "I could change this but I don't want to." But other times, I'm like, "I have to change it." Now that I've learned that. It's crazy you can shift your state, and you can do that and show up the way you need to be. And one practical example of how I use it a lot is, when I get home at the end of the night... And this kind of comes back to your question, I think, earlier, too. How do you do all the things? And I told you this yesterday. One of the things that I got the biggest, from being around Tony Robbins, the most impressive thing about him is when... Tony's got... As busy as any of us are, take that times 10, and that's Tony, right? He's the most busy person ever. But if you have a chance, a brief moment with Tony, where he's going to say a million things, and you have a second with him, he is the most present person I've ever met. The world dissolves around it, and it's just him and you, and there's nothing else. You can tell. And he's just zoned in on you, and it's this magical experience. And as soon as it's done, he's just gone, he's on the next thing. But that moment, he's hyper-present. And so, for me, when I'm doing things, it's like... Like, when I get home at night, at the end of the day, park my car, I walk in, and there's the door before I come into the house. And sometimes, I'm anxious, I'm thinking about work, and thinking about stuff, I'm stressed out, the FBI sent me a letter today, Taylor Swift suing me, whatever the thing is. And I'm like, "Ah." And then, I'm like, "I'm going to walk through that door, and I can't do anything about it now. My kids are there, my wife's there." And it's just like, "Okay, I got to change my state." And right there, before I walk through the door, I change my state. Get in the spot, and then like, "Okay, here we go." And I walk through the door, and it's like then I'm dad. And it's different, right? And so, I think it's learning those things. Because it's not... Your feelings are weird, they're going to show up in one way or the other, but the fact that you can control them, which I didn't understand or know how. But as soon as I realized that, it's just like, "I don't have to be sad, or miserable, or anxious, or whatever. I can actually change those things in a moment, if I understand how." And that was one of the greatest gifts Tony gave me, was just understanding how to do that, and seeing it in practical application with somebody. And now, it's like I can do it myself, any time I need to, if I need to. Matt: How do you act around Tony Robbins? Especially from the beginning to now, because you guys are close now. He probably looks at you like I look at a lot of these guys, that are Caleb's friends. I look at them like nephews, these are like... I'd do anything for them. And I know that... I can see that's how Tony starting to look at you. But take us from the very first time, because he didn't he have you come to an event, ask you a bunch of questions, take notes, and then just leave you hanging, or something like that. Tell the story, real quick. Russell: Oh, man. Tony's so intense. I still get scared to... It's still like, "Ah." Anyway, every time I see him, it's just like... I don't know, it's weird. His presence is- Matt: He still makes you nervous. Russell: Oh, yeah, for sure. But the very first time... So yeah, it was... I don't know, it was probably 04:00 in the morning. I don't even know. The shorter version of the long story is they asked me to come meet him in Toronto, at UPW, same event as this whole experience happened. So I went up there, and supposed to meet him one day, and it shifts to the next day. And if you ever work with Tony, just know if he tells you he's meeting you at 10:00, it could be like four days later you actually meet. You're on Tony time. Yeah, it's- Matt: That's just how it is. Russell: It's crazy, yeah. Just waiting. But it's always worth it, so you just wait and be grateful when it happens. But anyway, so we finally get to the point where we meet, and I have to drive 45 minutes. This is pre-Uber, so I'm in a taxi to some weird hotel. And we get there, and then me and his assistant stand outside for another hour, waiting in the lobby. He kept looking at his phone, nervously, like, "Ah." He's like, "Okay, Mr. Robbins' ready to meet you. Let's go." So we run up the stairs, we go to this thing, we walk in this room, and there's- Matt: And this is the first time you ever- Russell: ...body guards everywhere. First time I ever met him, yeah. Yeah, he's like a giant, comes and gives me a huge hug. And we sit down, and he's like, "You hungry?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he was vegetarian at the time, so he's like, "Get Russell some food." And brought me out this amazing plate of... I don't even know what it was. But it was... I was like, "If I could eat like this is every night, I'd be vegetarian." Because it was amazing. It was- Caleb: It was? Russell: ...insane. And then, got his tape recorder out, he's like, "You okay if we record this?" I'm like, "Yeah." So he clicks record, picks out a big journal, he's like, "You're Mormon, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I love the Mormon people. When I was eight years old, I went to a Mormon church and they told me to keep a journal. I've kept a journal ever since. Do you mind if I take notes while we talk?" Matt: Wow. Russell: I'm like, "Eh, okay." So he's recording, taking notes, and then he drilled me for an hour. Just like do, do, do. Just like- Speaker 4: And how long ago was this? Russell: This is 13, 14 years ago. Speaker 4: Okay. Russell: Anyway, it was intense. And I can't remember what I was saying, I was so scared, I'm second-guessing everything I've said. And then, he's asking me numbers and stats, because we were trying to do this deal with him. And it was so scary. Matt: So he was just drilling you with questions, and just trying to- Russell: Oh, like crazy, yeah. I'm trying to just... Yeah, dude. Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he had to go back to UPW to speak again, so he's like, "You want to drive with me?" So I'm like, "Yeah." So go down, and jump in his Escalade together, we're in the back seat, and we're driving. And it's just crazy. And I remember he asked me a question about this one... I won't say the person's name because the story isn't positive for the person. But he asked, he's like, "What do you think about so and so?" I'm like, "Oh, that person's really cool and really talented." He's like, "He's a very significant..." and he just talked about six human needs, earlier that day, so I was very aware of here's what the needs are, right? And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think I'd ever work with him, because he's very significance driven." And I was like, "Oh, that make sense." And all of a sudden, I was like, "Ah, Tony is reading my soul, right now." I was like, "What drives me? I don't even know what drives me. Does he know what drives me?" Like, "Oh my gosh, am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out, like, "Ah." And all I remember is panicking, thinking, "He knows more about me than I know about me, at this point." And all these things, I'm freaking out, we're driving in his Escalade. And we get to the thing, and he's like, "I got to go inside. Thank you so much, brother. I love you." Jumps out the car, shuts the door. I'm sitting in the Escalade, like, "What just happened?" Matt: It was that fast. Russell: It was insane, yeah. Matt: It was just like- Russell: And then, the driver's like, "Do you want to get out here? Do you want me to drive you somewhere?" Like, "I don't even know where we are." We're in Toronto somewhere, that's all I know. And so, it was just the craziest experience. And then, I don't hear from him for four or five months, nothing. And I'm like- Matt: What were you thinking? Did you think- Russell: I was like, "He must've hated me. Maybe I failed the test. Am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out about all the things. And then, one day, I get this random... It was actually my wife and I, we were celebrating our anniversary, so we were at... It was a StomperNet event, but we took her, it was this cool thing. And she'd just gone to UPW. I sent her like three months later. So she walked on fire, and she was like... And Tony talks about Fiji there, so she was like, "Someday we should go to Fiji." And then, we get this call from Tony, and it was like, "Hey..." Or it was Tony's assistant. Like, "Hey, Tony wants to know if you want to speak at Business Mastery in Fiji, in two weeks." I was like, "Tony Robbins..." I started saying it out loud so Collette could hear me. "Tony Robbins wants me to speak in Fiji, in two weeks?" And Collette, my cute little wife, starts jumping on the bed, like, "Say yes! Say yes!" Caleb: Aw! Russell: And I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. Of course, we will." And then, we're like, we've got three kids that are all toddlers at this time, and like, "Can we bring kids?" They're like, "There's no kids allowed on the resort." I'm like, "We've got three little kids." He's like, "Ah, all right. We'll figure it out." So I hang up, and we're like, "We don't have passports for the kids, we don't have anything." So anyway, it was chaos, we're freaking out. We ended up getting them there, they literally built a fence around our... The Bula house, where's Dan at? The Bula house we were in. They built a whole fence around, so our kids wouldn't die because- Caleb: Did they really? Russell: ...there's cliffs off the back. Yeah, it was crazy. And then, I'm speaking to this room, and there's less than 100 people. I'm speaking, and Tony's sitting in the back of this room, I'm like- Matt: While you're speaking. Russell: ..."I thought he was not going to be here. This is really scary." Yeah. And he's paying attention the whole time. Matt: Does it make you more nervous? Russell: He introduced me, he brought me on stage, which was like... I still have the footage of that, it's really cool. He brought me on stage, which was crazy. And then, I remember, because in the thing we're talking about lead generation, I was talking about squeeze pages. And afterwards, he got on. He comes up afterwards, he's like, "Yeah, I heard squeeze pages don't work anymore. Is that true, Russell?" He's like, "People say they're kind of dead, they don't work anymore." And this is, again, 12 years ago. And I was like, "Who told you that? They totally still work." Which is funny, because we still use them today. But he was just like, "Somebody had told me they don't work anymore." And I was like, "They..." anyway, "They work, I promise." But anyway, and then I don't hear from him for five years, and then something else happens. It's just weird, these long extended periods of time. But then, every time, every moment, I tried... Five years later, it was a call, it was like, "Hey, Tony's doing this thing. He wants your opinion on it." So I spent like two or three hours with his team, consulting, giving feedback, as much ideas as I could. And like, "Cool, thanks." And then, nothing for two years, and then something else, and then... Little things keep happening, and happening, and can do more and more together. And then- Matt: What did you learn from that? You think that's just- Russell: A couple things I've learned. Number one, I'm sure you guys get this a lot, people who want to work with you, they show up and the first thing they show up with is, "All right, I got an idea how we can make a bunch of money together." Right? They always come, and want to figure out how they can take from you. And I was so scared, and grateful, I didn't ever ask Tony for anything. The first time I asked Tony for anything ever was 12 into our relationship, after Expert Secrets book was done. I had just paid him $250,000 to speak on our stage, and just finished the interview promoting his book. And I was like, "Hey, I wrote a new book. Do you want one?" Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's like, "Oh." And he took it. I'm like, "Cool." And then, a week later, I'm like, "Ah, will you interview me on Facebook with this?" He's like, "Sure." And then, he did, and that video got three and a half million views on it. It was crazy, coolest thing ever. But it was 12 years before I asked him for anything. And I had- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...served him at as many different points as I can. I think the biggest lesson from that is that... And I get it all the time, people come to me and it's like they're trying to ask and take. It's just like... I get it, and it makes sense. But it's just like, "This game's not a short game. If you do it right, it's your life. This is your life mission." Right? Matt: Yeah, that's good. Russell: And so it's just understanding you're planting seeds, and you're serving, and if you do that, eventually good things will happen. And something may never happen with Tony, and that's cool. I do stuff for a lot of people, and nothing ever good ever comes from it. But hopefully something does. Sometimes it's indirect, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's just karma, or whatever you believe in. But if you just always go with the intent to serve, not to like, "What's in it for me?" It just changes everything. And then, if you do that, if you lead with how to serve, stuff comes back to you. But if you lead with trying to get stuff, it just doesn't work. The energy's different in the whole encounter. You know what I mean? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: So I'm sure you guys have felt that with people, when they first come to you, and it's just like, "Ah." Matt: So is there a point where you... You went to his house. Russell: That was cool. The thing I can say is it was really cool, because most times when I'm with Tony, you're around people. In Fiji, it was fun seeing him, because he's more personal and stuff like that. But it was really special in his home, because it was him and his wife, and it was cool. It was fun just seeing him as him, like as a kid. And even my wife, like, "He seems like a kid here." He was so excited, and showing us his stuff, and all the things. Matt: Ah, well, guys, listen. Russell: Anyway- Matt: A few more questions, because I mean, man, you've been at it for almost two hours, dude. I can go all night, and I know he could. But Brea Morrison, give it up for her for letting us be here. Thank you so much.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part two of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers Podcast. So I have got to ask you, what did you think about episode number one of the World Changers Roundtable? Hopefully, you loved it. There were so many things covered in that 42 minutes. Anyway, we are moving on to the next part of this interview. As you know, this is going to be broken down into four parts because they kept me there, handcuffed to a table, until 3:00 AM. I'm just joking. They didn't really. But, the question was so intriguing, we were having so much fun, we just kept going and going until finally I was like, "I have to fly out in three hours. I need to get back to my hotel." But now we're going to go dive into the second part. This next episode is probably another 30 to 40, 45 minutes or so as well. So these are some things we'll be covering in this one, which is really fun. We talk about, number one, why my business partner, Todd Dickerson, is so amazing, and hopefully give you ideas about if you're pursuing opportunities and trying to land your dream job or partnership or whatever. Number two, we talked about personality profiling, how we actually are hiring here at ClickFunnels. We talked about where my love for learning came from. We talked about transition for me, going from an athlete to a business person and a marketer. We talked about some of the lessons I learned from Lindsey Stirling, things I was not expecting to hear from her that totally changed everything for me. We talked about people who intrigue me, my interest in health and bio hacking. We talked about is there anything that happens inside of this business that gets me as excited as what I felt in wrestling. We talked about what thing is close, but nothing actually has ever hit it. We talked about the first Two Comma Club Awards. We talked about how to upgrade your identity as you grow. We talked about the fact that you have to cycle and fail and rebuild in your businesses. We talked about the launch of ClickFunnels and how it wasn't just the fact that I was a genius, because I wasn't. There are so many things. Talking about the grace of God and how it tied into the launch of ClickFunnels. We talked about some of my early products, like Zip Brander and Forum Fortunes. We talked about my Christmas Grinch sale, which was the very first big sale, big launch I ever did, to my little tiny list that made enough money to cover Christmas for my wife and I when we were first getting started. We talked about becoming worthy. We talked about list building, how it's better than buying ads, and a whole bunch of other things. It's amazing, this could be 40 courses all wrapped into one super podcast episode. So if you liked the last episode, I think you're going to love this one as well. And I've got two more after this, coming back, going deeper into this conversation with the Roundtable of World Changers. So, that said, we're going to cue the theme song. When we come back, we'll dive right into the second section here of the interview. Matt Maddix: Dave and Todd, I mean, just wow. Those dudes are like... But what about those guys? Russell: So here's Todd's story. So the real long story short, I bought some software, it was coding Ruby on Rails, didn't know that. Bought this company with the last... I didn't have the money. So I borrowed money, bought this company, coded on some platform we didn't know, and I was like, "Screw it," right? And I tried to hire people to fix it, nobody could fix this platform until finally I was leaving the office one day. I literally emailed the people saying, "Turn off the servers." We lost all of our money to this company. They shut it down. And I'm walking out of the office and I had this impression of like, "There could be someone on your email list who knows Ruby on Rails." I was like, "That's weird. I had a bunch of internet marketing nerds. There's no one that's like, 'Ruby on Rails...'" Anyway. It was starting with the impression from God, I stopped, turned back around, set the computer to open back up, sent an email to my list. "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner. I bought a software company and it's not working. Please send me a message." Send. Matt: And that's all you said? Russell: Yeah. And lo and behold, three years earlier, Todd bought some random thing from me, happened to be on my email list. He built the website three or four years earlier that was making six figures a year on autopilot. Hadn't worked in four years. Just hanging out relaxing with his wife and his daughter. And an email comes in and it says, "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner." He's like, "I know Ruby on Rails. I can be Russell's partner." Emails me back. And at first I see him and his beautiful wife and I'm like, "There's no way he's a programmer. There's no way." That was literally my thought. But he was the only person that responded back so I was like, "Okay, well, here's the login to the site. Fix it. I don't know what to do. I'm not a coder." I went to bed, woke up the next morning. He's like, "Cool, I fixed the site. Plus I found this, this, and this. And I changed this. And I moved these things,", and all of this stuff. He's like, "It's working now. Do you have anything else you want to do together?" I'm like, "Huh." And so I give him another project, another project. And for an entire year Todd and I worked together, and never once did he ever ask me for money, ever. Matt: Wow. Russell: Not a penny. And I remember he started finding Boise to work on a project together ... Matt: You're telling me he worked for you for an entire year? Russell: For free. More than a year. Caleb Maddix: Why was that? Russell: I don't know. I found out later. He'd gone to Robert Kiyosaki at this event and he said, "Find someone who's doing what you want to do and work for them for free." So he told me that years later. I didn't know that. Matt: Todd, if you're watching dude. I love you man. You're legit. Russell: And so he kept coming and he started coming to Boise and we started becoming friends. The smartest developer I've ever met. Literally the smartest person I've ever met. I'll go that far. Just genius. And he'd come out to Boise and we'd work on projects and ideas. We tried to launch a couple of things. None of them really worked. And we were just trying stuff. He was just always there, always serving, always doing stuff. And one day were in Boise and I was looking over his shoulder cause we're looking at stuff and I saw his email. And there's all these emails from some recruiting site or something. I was like, "What's that?" He's like, "Oh, it's people recruiting me for a Ruby job." And I was like, "Do you get a lot of those?" And he's like, "I get three or for a day." I'm like, "Really? Are they good offers?" He's like, "I don't know. Let's check it out." He opened it up and the first one was like $400,000 a year starting salary. I'm like, "What?" The next one is $350,000. The next was 5 ... Insane things. I'm like, "Why don't you do that?" He's like, "I don't want to work for them. I want to be your partner man." I'm like, "What?" And then I all of a sudden had this realization that I hadn't paid him in a year. We didn't have much money at the time, we're still at the backside of a business failure when we met. I'm like, "I can pay you maybe $50,000 a year. Can I pay you that?" He's like, "Whatever." So I told our little bookkeeper, "Pay Todd $50,000 a year." And they're like, "Okay." So he did that and next year we're paying $50,000 a year. We're doing stuff and we have more things. Started to get a little success here and there. Making more money. Back in Boise again. And I'm like, "Can I pay you some more?" And he's like, "Whatever." Matt: So he wasn't ever just asking? Russell: Never in his life has he asked me for money. Ever. So we bumped it up to $100,000 a year because that's what we got, the year before that, after a year or two working together. And then, it was crazy, the day Leadpages got the first round of funding for $5,000,000, the same day Todd was flying to Boise. And he gets the email. It's east coast so he's two hours ahead. He's awake and on the plane, he sees the email, forwards it to me, and then jumps in the plane. He's flying for four hours. I wake up. I see the email and I was like, "Leadpages? Got 5 ..." I was like, we built landing page software in the past. I was perplexed and angry. And then Todd lands. And Todd, he's a little guy, he comes into the office all angry. He's like, "Leadpages got 5 million!" He's like, "I can build Leadpages tonight. Do you want to build lead pages?" I'm like, "Yeah. Let's compete with Leadpages." He's like, "All right." Matt: No way. Dude. I love this. Russell: This is like angry Todd. I love angry Todd. I like all Todds, but angry Todd is the best Todd. Matt: Is it? Okay. Russell: He's just pissed because he's like, "I can build this tonight. Everything thing they got we can have done tonight." So we're getting all ready. What should we call it and everything. And then he's like, "Wait, we're building this. You want to add anything else to it?" And I was like, "Oh. Yeah. What if it did this? And what if it did this?" And we spent a week in front of a white board saying, "What if it did?", and we mapped out ClickFunnels. Matt: So you're talking about a week where you guys just locked in and you were just having fun. Just doodling and whatever. Russell: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I can do that. We can do that." We're brainstorming all sorts of stuff so we map the whole thing out. Matt: Did you know at that moment you were onto something big? At that moment right there, when you guys were like ... Or was it just still like ... Russell: All lot of people have tried something like that. I tried before other people tried. No one had done it. So I was kind of skeptical but Todd's like, "I can do this. This is easy." I'm like, "Okay because I tried it ..." He's like, "No dude, I can do it. This is easy." So I was, excuse me, optimistically hopeful because he's a genius but I was also nervous. But anyways, we map it out and then we bought Clickpros.com. I wanted to call it ClickFusion because I own ClickFusion, but we'd had three failed businesses called ClickFusion. All of them failed and Todd was like, "No. It's bad karma. We can't." I'm like, "But the logo is so cool dude." Matt: I love it. You love the logo. Russell: And he's like, "No, we can't." He's like, "It's got a jinx on it or something. We can't do that. You have to come up with a different name." I was like, "But ClickFusion is the coolest name ever." So we're trying things. Click everything and then ClickFunnels. We're like, "Ah." That was the thing. We're so excited Matt: Who first said it? Do you remember? The words ClickFunnels. Caleb: It's almost like God saying, "Let there be light." Russell: I would assume it was me but I'm not positive. I'll have to ask Todd on that one. Caleb: Well, when you said it, was it instant? Like fire? Russell: It was insane, it was available. Matt: Oh, you know that feeling, right? Checking domains. You're like… chills. Russell: How has no one thought of this before? And so we got it and I remember I was driving him to the airport at the end of the week to take him back home. And we got to the airport. Boise airport, It's a small airport. So we pull up to the thing to get out and you can tell he's probably nervous waiting. And before we get out of the car he's like, "I really want to do this man. I'm excited." I'm like, "Me too. Me too." He's like, "I don't want to do this like your employee though. I want to do it as your partner." And in that moment, I was just like all the fear of ... I'd tried partners in the past. It hadn't worked. All this stuff and all the everything. And it was just this weird thing of just all the emotions were hitting me as he sat in the car, about to get out the car. I have 15, 20 seconds before he's going to to go. I was just thinking about him. I was like, he's never asked me for money. He's never done anything. He's served. He's given everything. I was just looking at him. I was like, "All right let's do it." He's like, "Cool." And he got out of the car and he's gone. Matt: Wait a minute. So at that moment? Is was that quick? Russell: That was it. Matt: It was a gut feeling that you just knew. That he was ... Russell: It was him. Yeah. And I was literally... I said this on stage at Funnel hacking live, outside of marrying my wife, it was the greatest decision I ever made. Matt: Yeah. I remember you saying that with tears. Russell: Yeah. Matt: Why though? I'm curious because it's not just ClickFunnels. Russell: He's amazing. If you look at our personality profiles, it's fascinating. We have the same personality profiles. The Myers-Briggs. Except for one letter's different. Where I'm a feeler he's a thinker. And it's been magical as a partnership because we both have so much respect for each other that we don't try to fight each other. And it's very much like if I wanted to do something, I'm like, "This is what I want to do. This what I'm feeling. What do you think?" And he'll come back and be like, "Well, I think this." And so I come up from feeling instead of thinking and it's really cool. So sometimes his thinking will trump my feeling. And I'm like, "You're actually right. Let's not do that." Or vice versa. Where he's like, "I'm thinking this." And I'm like, "I don't know why but I feel this." And he'll be like, "Okay." He respects that. We just have such mutual respect that we've never been in a fight. We've never argued. We've never had problems. It's been amazing. Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's similar to like we talk about with Dan. He went back home after us white boarding that, sat in his basement for five or six months and built ClickFunnels by himself. Caleb: Really just by himself? Russell: 100% by himself. Caleb: No other team. No other dev? Russell: It was just him. And the right before we launched, we brought in another partner, Dylan, who built the front-end editor and did a lot of the UI. And so then it was those two as we got closer and closer to the launch. And then for the next year it was just those two that did everything. And then after a year, we started bringing in other developers. But it was 100% Todd. Matt: Wow. Russell: He's amazing. In all aspects. You know you have friends you think they know everything about everything. That's like Todd except he actually knows everything about everything. You ask him anything and he's just like ... I don't know how he does it. And I'll always fact check him, like, "Oh my gosh. He's right again." He's brilliant. It's amazing. Matt: So for those of us who have partners or are maybe going into partnership, what's your best advice? And what do you feel like he does right that other partners don't do? Russell: I think the hardest thing with partners is typically we want to partner with someone who is just like us. We did a podcast most recently. Dean, Tony and I, right? We've done two partnerships. Both partnerships made it through the launch and they stopped. Made it through the launch and stopped. The podcast was like, "Why?" I love Dean. I love Tony. They're amazing. The problem is that me and Dean had the exact same skill set. Matt: Oh. Russell: And so the problem is that both of us are right. We both understand it right, but we do it differently. And so it's like You have two people, and so typically you want to partner with those people who are like you. You're like, "Oh, we think the same. We should be partners." But that's not necessarily the right thing because then you've got two alphas with the same skillset, and someone has to win and someone has to lose. And it's hard. Whereas me and Todd, we have different skill sets. There is never a winner or a loser. We can both win because different skill sets, both the same mission. It's really easy. So I think the biggest thing is you're trying to find the yin yang. You're not trying to find someone who thinks like you or acts like you. In fact, this is true in most hiring processes as well. I used to have people like, "Send me a video if you want this job." Right? So I get these videos, and the people that I wanted to hire were the people like me. I'm like, "This person's awesome. They think like me. They're a genius. They're amazing." You'll hire them, and within a week I'm like, "I hate this person." It's horrible. So we started shifting the way we do our hiring based on personality profiling instead. DISC profile drives most of my own personal hiring so I know that I'm a high D, high I, high S. No C at all. Right? And so the people I need to hire around me are high S, high C. The problem is the people I who I watched their videos and I'm pumped, they're high D, high I. So I'm like, "Yeah. These people are awesome. They're charismatic. I'm going to love them. They're drivers, they're awesome. Worst employees ever. Matt: Right. Russell: Right? So when people send us this profile, first I find the right profile and then from there I do interviews. Because if I interview ahead of time I get sold by the people who sell and then they're horrible employees. And so I make sure they're high S high C, because I know that if I talk to high S high C, I'm going to be kind of bummed out. Like, "Oh, I don't know if this is the kind of person that I'm going to jive with." But they're the best people to surround myself with because I'm such a high D high S. I'm a creator. I'm throwing things up in the air and I need people who are S and C, who are faithful finishers, who are going to take the things, capture them, and make sure that it's amazing. Matt: Do you feel like businesses and entrepreneurs are making a mistake by not having their employees and their team take these tests? Russell: 100%. I have a new company we're launching all about personality profiling because I'm such a big believer in it. Matt: Really? Tell me why. Top three reasons. Russell: It's in all things in life. If you're going to be a partner. If you're going to date someone. Understanding who they are is such a big part of it. Right? Because we think everyone sees the world the same way we see it and it is not true at all. The way you see it, the way we all see is so different and so if we don't understand that at a deep level, then I get upset by what you do and at what everyone's doing because it's like, "Don't you see what I see?" And the reality is no they don't. So if you start understanding people better ... In fact, the software can be called Understand About Me. It's a place you go and you take all the personality profiling and it gives you a page that can show somebody this is me. So in five seconds I can understand you perfectly they're like, "Oh, now I know how to work with you." Because I understand what you are, what your beliefs are, what your values, all the things I need to know about you, I can find it really quickly. Where normally you're going to go years with somebody before you understand them. I can look at a thing and get pretty dang close in a minute. Matt: Wow. Russell: Now I know hot interact with you and spend time with you and work with you. Things like that. Caleb: Question. Where does your love to learn come from? Because one of the things I noticed from being around you, it's always like yeah, so I had this moment where I geeked on this and I geeked out on this. It was health and suppliments, and marketing and personality types. There's all these different things you geek out on. Have you always been that way? Is it like you geek out on marketing, you saw the rewards from it, and you're like, "Wow, what if this goes into other areas?" Where does that come from? Russell: Yeah, I didn't always have my life. In fact, I had a fascinating conversation with Tom Bilyeu about this, because when I was growing up in high school I always thought I was a dumb kid. I thought I was an athlete, so I focused there. I thought I was an athlete, so I was a wrestler, that was my identity, that was where I focused at. I thought I was dumb. Because of that, straight C student high school and college, my cumulative GPA graduating from college was 2.3. Straight C's and one B maybe somewhere in there, right? Because I was a dumb kid. When I got done I ended my wrestling career, so I stopped being an athlete, and I was like, "Oh crap." I started to learn this business stuff and I don't like to read. I'm a dumb kid. What do I do? It was fascinating. Tom told me, because I had this epiphany, I'm not actually dumb. He's like, "Actually, the reality is you probably really were dumb. But then you changed, right?" So for me it was like I shifted. It was fascinating. Do you remember the Funnel Hacking Live where we had Lindsay Stirling perform? One of my favorite parts of that, she did a whole performance. If you guys don't know, Lindsay does violin dancing stuff, and afterwards I had a Q and A with her afterwards. I had this question I was so pumped to ask. I was waiting for her just to like, the question is, she was on America's Got Talent, and I think she took 7th place. When she got kicked off, Pierce Bronson or whatever said, "You've got no talent. You're no good." Whatever, right? So I was like, do you remember that time when he said that? What I thought she was going to say was, "Yeah, I proved him wrong. Yeah." I was like, "What did you feel after that?" She's like, "Yeah, I got home and I realized he was right. I wasn't very good. So I went back and I started practicing and I started working harder and eventually I became good enough." It was like, oh my gosh. I got chills when I was saying it again. Matt: Yeah. Russell: I remember when Tom said it to me, he was like, "You probably were dumb." I was like, "I was." Because I wasn't reading things. So with marketing that was the first thing for some reason that caught my attention, that got me excited, right? And then if you look at my DISC profile, ROI is my highest value. I have to see ROI in something or I don't want to do it. So when I saw an ROI on this reading, I was like, "Oh my gosh. I read a book, I got one little sentence, changed a color, made more money. Oh my gosh." That is where it started, 100%. I started learning that and I started getting obsessed with those things. As this business grew for me I started being more, I always joke that crazy people got attracted to me, right? The best health people, the best fitness people, the best in every market kind of came into our world somehow. So I started getting to meet all these people. When you're around someone who's the best in the world at the thing, and they start talking about the thing, you can't help but be like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." Right? You zone in on that. So whenever I meet someone that's amazing and I have a chance to talk to them like this I just geek out. Like when I met your dad the first time with you guys. That's when I bought your parenting course and everything. I was just like, I saw you and I saw him and I was like, "I want that." So I started going down that rabbit hole, right? I met Anthony DiClementi, I was like, "I love this guy. I have respect for him, I love him." Every time he talks about anything, he fascinates me, when he talks about something it fascinates me. I have to look down those things, right? When people fascinate me, the things that fascinate them start fascinating me and that's when I kind of go down those rabbit holes. This person is so intriguing and fascinating. What makes them that way? What are they doing. It's interesting. I'm not a good question asker. You guys are so good at question askers. I've never been good at asking questions, but I'm really good at watching what people do and then seeing it and trying to go down the rabbit hole. What are they doing, why are they doing it, that kind of thing. Caleb: He's a true master in it. You can just tell. What are some things you want to take the time to geek out on? I'm sure you see something and you're like I want to get on that but it's not a priority, I've got to do this. What are some things, if I had a week or two? Russell: Just free time with nothing else involved? Caleb: What's the next thing you're going to geek out on? Russell: Oh. I would say every probably three years I get re-excited about SEO, for some reason. I start going down that path again, because I love it. There's times in my business when that was the focused. It's not now at all, but I went through a couple ... Brian Dean's a real cool SEO guy, couple guys… I started dabbing my toe in again and I'm like, I just want to get back into it so bad. Right now SEO is actually our number 11 lead source as of today in ClickFunnels, which is amazing. So we handed SEO the first four or five years, now we're focused on it again. It's doing really well for us. I want to go deep there because I like that. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to do that. Any of the health stuff really, really fascinates me. Matt: Why? I'm curious. Why are you drawn to that so much? The health stuff. Russell: Because I've seen with myself ... My history is I got in wrestling, at the PAC 10 tournament was my last actual wrestling match. My wife was giving herself fertility shots in the stomach during PAC 10 so the next month se was pregnant. So I got done wrestling, got done competing, got done running, got done lifting. All my athletic career ended, and then my wife got pregnant. She's eating for three kids, and I'm pumped because I don't have to work out right now, she's hungry, I'm hungry, we're eating. We just kept eating and eating. So over the next seven to eight months my wife gained like 60 pounds, I gained like 60 pounds. We were doing it together so who cared, it was amazing. Then one day she has two babies and she loses like 45 pounds and I'm like, oh crap. I'm stuck here. Where did you go? This for me? Matt: Yeah. Russell: Thank you. Then at that time the business was starting and I was stressed out trying to figure it out and I didn't get healthy again. I just was in that state of being 65 pounds heavier for years. But I didn't know the difference, I didn't know that I felt differently, because I'd never been in a spot where I spent eight hours sitting behind a computer, so I didn't know what good felt like or bad felt like. I knew if I tried to wrestle I'd puke, so I was like I don't feel like I'm an athlete. I just felt normal, I thought. Eight years in I was like, I don't know, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, "Oh, what happened to you?" You know what I mean? I'm sure hopefully everybody's had a chance. I was like, huh. It was hard because in my head I knew how to work out, I knew how to train, I knew these things. Finally I was like, "I need to get a trainer." So I got a trainer for the first time. I'd never really done that before. Started going, and got me from I don't even know, 27, 28% body fat down to 12% in a matter of seven or eight months. I looked better, I felt better, but what's crazy is I could work twice as hard and twice as long. I wasn't tired. I was like, "I can keep going. My brain's on fire. This is amazing." Matt: Wow. Just from the ... Russell: I had no idea until I lost all the weight. All of a sudden it was just like, I can do so much more. I think, when I first met Anthony DiClementi the first time I was like, this is my problem right now. I am at work all day slaying dragons, doing all these things, I have this energy. I get home at night and my two little twin boys are there, and my little daughter, and I'm spent and I have no energy. How do I still be a present dad and how do I have these things? The next tier was the bio hacking stuff. How do you do these things? How do you increase energy? There's so many ways to do that, from light therapy to supplements to sleeping to sound to breath, all these crazy things that seem stupid. The first time Anthony's like, "We're going to do breath work." I'm like, "We're going to breathe? That's your bio hack? We're going to breathe together?" He's like, "Yeah, it's going to be amazing." I'm like super annoyed. What's the ROI on this, I've got to get back to work. So he sat me down in our gym. You've been in our wrestling room. He sat me down and he's like, "You have to sit because if you're standing you'll hit your head and you'll die." I'm like, what are you talking about? He sits me down and we do these breathing exercises where he's yelling at us and screaming. All this stuff is happening. If anyone's ever done deep breath work it's nuts. We're doing this thing where we're supposed to do this heavy, heavy breath work until he's like, what's going to happen is the world is going to ... Has anybody done jiu-jitsu here? Been tapped out before? Matt: Yeah. Russell: So you get choked out. What will happen, the carotid artery gets choked and the world starts shrinking like this. If you take pressure off it, it comes back to life. If you don't, it goes darker and darker until it disappears and you're gone, right? If you've never been choked out, that's what happens. It's a really fun experience. But you have the minute when you see it shrinking around you and then it's gone, right? He told me that's what's going to happen. You're going to breathe so much that the world around you is going to start shrinking. If you don't stop you're going to pass out. So we go all the way to where it starts shrinking, stops, and then when you hit that point you let me know and then you hold your breath for as long as you can. He's like, "How long can you hold your breath for?" I'm like, "Maybe a minute." He's like, "You'll do it for at least five." I was like, there's no way. So he says sit down, we're doing this breath thing, we're going like crazy and sure enough the walls start doing weird stuff. I feel like I'm on drugs. I'm sweating like crazy. We keep doing it. He's yelling at me. All of a sudden the world starts closing around me, I'm like, "What is happening?" And then he stops and is like, "Hold your breath." He starts the clock. I'm sitting here holding my breath forever, looking around. We had three or four of us guys all doing it at the same time. I'm freaking out. And then it starts getting quieter, things are slowing down, we're sitting there and then he's like let some of the pressure out but don't breathe in. Let pressure out, pressure out, pressure out, keep doing that, and it gets done and the stop clock is over five minutes. I'm just like, I just held my breath for five minutes. Matt: And you didn't even know it. Russell: Insane. And then the rest of the day we were on fire. It was just like, whoa. Right? We brought a cryo-sauna at our house and we go freeze in the cryo-sauna and the rest of the day you just feel ... That's the thing I love now, these little weird things. Light therapy, breathing, weird things that just seem stupid. You do it and you can go longer, you can think better, you can do stuff. All those things just get me so excited. Anthony's fun because he randomly will just ship me weird stuff in the mail. Just the weirdest things. It makes my wife so mad. It just shows up. There's a big old box. She's like, what's this from? I'm like, I'm hoping it's from Anthony, it's going to be amazing. Just weird things. Tons of stuff. I love that kind of stuff because the ROI on it is crazy. They're always these weird things. I have this headband someone sent me. You put this headband on, you put an app on and you start working and it just makes you not tired, makes you focused. These weird things. How does this work? I don't know. And they're like oh, it works because the waves over here sync your brain and change your brain waves and the creative state and all these things. I mean, I don't know how it works but I just wrote two chapters. Caleb: Do you do breath work every day? Russell: No, because it's so intense. If I had a coach who could walk me through it. I have a recording of Anthony doing it and I almost dread it because I know how hard it is. By the time you're done you're sweating. Caleb: I've got to get that recording. Russell: I'll get it to you. By the time you're sweating, you're like what just happened? I just breathed for five minutes. It's weird. Anyway, I would love to understand it on a deeper level but I don't understand a lot of the things now. Some of them I've gone deep on, but a lot of them I do without knowing why. I hate it because my wife will be like, "What's this do?" And I'm like, I don't know. Matt: Just love it. Russell: One of my buddies, Preston Eli, he wrote this blog post, he called it the Warriornaire Workout. In there he explains part of his morning workout. He's like, why do I do it? He's like, because Tony Robins does, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence. That quote goes to my head all the time. People ask me, why do you do that? I'm like, because I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence, that's it. I'm like, I don't know the reason why, Tony says so, therefore I will do it. I would like to understand it at a deeper level so I have a better response than I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. But that's a pretty good reason. Anyway. Matt: Real quick, does anybody else want to throw in a question for Russell? Anybody else here live with us? Caleb: Let me ask one more real fast. Because I want to. I want to ask this. We were just having sushi, I was asking you, what are some of the favorite periods of your life? One of them you said was wrestling, which I found funny because by far one of my favorite periods is baseball, which people wouldn't expect because obviously I've been on stage and all this other stuff and that should take the cake. But those moments when you're just on the field, you're in the zone, there's nothing better. Where, with what you get to do now, whether it's being live on a webinar or being on stage or whatever it is, where do you get the same feeling of wrestling? Do you know what I mean? You know, the feeling in your chest? Russell: Today while we were in line at the grocery store I talked to your dad about this. I said that the best feelings I ever had in my life were from wrestling. The feeling of winning a hard match that I wasn't supposed to win and getting your hand raised, I never felt something like that, that felt as good as that, ever. I've been searching in business to find that, and I've never found it. Speaker 3: Do you feel like sports is like business in any sense? Matt: Good question. Russell: For sure, yeah. There's a lot, for sure. What I was going to say is the closest I've ever gotten to feeling that is when you serve at an event and you see a table rush and you see not only people where they get the a-ha, but enough of an a-ha where it gets them to get up and to move. That's the closest I've ever felt to that. It's not as good, but it's the closest I've ever felt to that. Which is why I love doing the big things. I get a glimpse of that. Caleb: How close? Scale of one to 10. Wrestling's a 10. Where does that rank? Russell: If wrestling's a 10, I'd say it's about an eight. In fact it's interesting because when I first started in business I was racing for that, trying to find it, trying to find it, trying to find it. It took me years before I was like ... Matt: Is it disappointing? Russell: For sure, yeah. We launch today and make a million dollars and it's like, huh. That sucked. What else have we got. Give me something else. Matt: Exactly. Russell: The money goal is always what I thought was going to be the thing, and those always were just like, huh. In fact, literally one of the main reasons I did the Two Comma Club Awards, for me I need, maybe it's just from a decade of my life someone grabbing my hand and raising it. I was like, entrepreneurs need that. No one raises our hands. Two Comma Club Awards, for me, is me lifting their hands like you did it. I needed that, they need that. That's one of the main reasons I did that, because that's the equivalent of that. Anyway. Matt: How many millionaires have you created? Russell: This year we passed 1,000 people that won the two comma club award. We're over 120. Matt: How does it feel to say that? To say it? You know how sometimes it's like so many people that have passion or goals or huge dreams and visions, rarely do they really celebrate what's happening on the journey. Do you find yourself ever getting where your vision is so big and your passion is so deep that even saying things like there's 1,000 millionaires. Dude, that's huge. Man, 1,000 people that are millionaires because of you. Russell: I think the first time I really got that, probably the most impactful time, was the very first Funnel Hacking live that we gave away Two Comma Club Awards. It was the third Funnel Hacking live. It was a couple of months before that we had the idea of a Two Comma Club and an award, talking about that. I legitimately didn't know. I wonder if anyone in ClickFunnels has actually made a million dollars. I don't even know. So Dave went back and the database guys went through everything and I remember he came back and was like, there's 79 people right now that made a million dollars. I was just like, are you serious? Matt: Was it a boost of confidence? What did it do for you? Russell: It was one of those things, looking back on me doing these events where two people showed up and nobody showed up, hardly anybody, where I was so excited about this? I was like, how come nobody cares? To now it was like, this is actually, I've talked about this long enough people are believing it and now they're doing it. You start seeing it, and there's the fruits of it. In my mind I was like a million bucks, even then, ClickFunnel was new, I was like a million dollars is hard. Most of my friends I knew were like made somewhere near a million dollars. There were people who have been in this business for a long time. A million bucks is a big deal. That was most people's goal still. The fact that 79 people had done it, that was just weird to me. I think that was the biggest one, the realization that just like, oh my gosh. It's not just a theory and I think it works, it's working. It's working at a scale that was unfathomable to me at the time. 79 people. To go to 200 and then 500 and then 1,000 is crazy. Matt: What was your question, buddy? Speaker 4: You're talking about how at each level of success you hit, some of your mentors hit that ceiling, right? Because of the posturing, right? So ultimately I feel like when you get to a new level of success it requires you to upgrade your identity, your self image. What have you found is the number one routine, what's your process for upgrading the identity, upgrading your self image? Because I think that's so important because it can either hold you back and have you self sabotage and not take action and go after what you want, or it's going to be the thing that keeps you at that level and continues to propel you forward. What's kept you ... Russell: That's good. It's weaved through everything, right? The one that's the most obvious external, especially in our world, because you see marketers, most people when they first start selling whatever it is they're selling they're bragging about themselves. Here's my ad, here's my name. It's all about them, that's the first tier of it. And then the second tier, when they start having the realization, I feel like is when they stop talking about themselves and start talking about the people they've helped. Speaker 4: Mm. Russell: You see externally. You don't hear me talking about how much money I make. I'm not like, oh, check out what I got. I talk about all the other people. It's like, that's next year, is that. And then for me the third tier now, which has been really cool, is talking about Lady Boss, right? The success story isn't Kailin, it's Kailin's customers, right? So it's like that next tier. What you're talking about is like the external version of that. There's a lot of internal things that you've got to deal with, but you'll notice it shifting in people when you look at just their messaging and what they're saying. From the way they podcast, they video, they market, their ads and everything, it's the shift of it's not about me, it's about them. It's not even about them, that's the external version of it. Internally I think it's really, it's what we talked about, I can't remember why, but we brought up yesterday or today I had this really successful guy I met one time who the first time we met he was like tell me your story. So I was telling him the wrestle posturing story about how great I was. He was like, no. Tell me about the time you failed. So I was like, well, I'm in the middle of one right now. So I told him let me tell you. I told this whole thing. I remember afterwards I was so embarrassed. He's going to think I'm an idiot. You know, that fear? He was like, good, you cycled. I was like, what? He was like, I will not work with entrepreneurs who haven't cycled at least once. Because if they haven't then they still believe their own bio, right? I think that's the biggest thing, the internal version is that. The first time around, before you cycle, you think it's all you. I know for me it was. I remember doing this the first time, I'm like, I am a genius. I'm the smartest guy in the world. And then when it collapsed I was like, oh, there's a lot of things outside my control. This is not me. There is a team, there's God, there's all these other things that are making this possible. There's a scripture, I can't remember where it's at, it's the Bible, Book of Mormon, but it says you can either be humble or God will humble ... Ah, I'm misquoting it by far. But it's like God will humble people. You can be humble or he will humble you. So it's like, looking at that, I'm like round two I'm going to be a humble person because I don't want to be humbled again, right? Matt: I still feel it. Russell: This is not me. I understand, I look around now and it's 100% like there's no way I would be where I am right now if Dan Usher didn't make videos the way he does. There's no way I'd be here right now if Todd Dickerson could not code software the way he does. There's no way, all these things are so many people. Matt: You're so right. Russell: Then there's so many success stories that inside of it there's just so many people. And then there's the grace of God. I just look at the timeline of when ClickFunnels came into the market. I've now got funnels for a decade, nobody cared. Then all these things were happening, we started having the idea for ClickFunnels, started building it, we're creating it, and then literally we go to traffic and conversion, Todd's halfway done building ClickFunnels, and Ryan Deiss stands on stage in the biggest event at the time and he spends the entire four days talking about funnels. Talking about how funnels are the greatest thing. Everybody's like, what's a funnel? They're all taking notes. Me and Todd are like, does he know we're building? He's talking about funnels. He's talking about funnels like crazy. And then the next day everyone gets home from traffic and conversion and everybody that day, the next day 8,000 funnel consultants pop up. Everybody's a funnel consultant. Everyone is on Facebook talking about funnel consultants and teaching funnels and all this stuff. We're like, oh my gosh. Todd, get this software done, everybody's talking about funnels right now. So he's coding like crazy, all this stuff is coming around, all of a sudden everyone's like, millions of funnel consultants, everyone's doing it, and all of a sudden we're like, hey, we created this thing called ClickFunnels, here it is. All of a sudden all of the consultants and all the people and everyone came and we were the only platform. I look at that, as smart as I think I am, there is so much grace and timing. If I'd launched a year earlier, a year later, it would not have hit the way it did. 100% it was the timing of all these things that have to happen. If it wasn't for that ... I can act like I'm smart, I'm a genius, but man, there's so much divinity that came into all the things. There's no way it could happen without that. Anyway, just understanding those things. Matt: What did you learn when you were cycling? Russell: So many lessons. Russell, you are not that good looking. Or cool. Or anything. Matt: It's basically not about you, right? Yeah, I feel that. So what was hardest? What were the tough lessons? Caleb: How many times did you cycle? Russell: Two big ones for sure. Matt: Really? Do you mind sharing? Russell: Yeah, the first time was after I was trying to figure this thing out. I remember one of my buddies was like, you're making money online? I'm like, yeah. He's like, that's cool. I'm like, do you want a job? He's like, what? I'm like, you're the first person I know who's interested. I'll pay you to come hang out with me. He's like, all right. So I hired my friend. He's like, I have some friends too. I'm like, okay. So I start hiring all these people because I want someone to talk to. Anyway, it was really bad. I ended up having a whole bunch of employees nobody knew how to do anything. I didn't know how to train anybody. I was hiding in the room trying to make money to pay payroll while they're standing outside like, do you want us to do anything? I'm like, don't talk to me, I've got to make money to pay your payroll. They're like, we can help. I'm like, I don't have time to explain anything to you. It was horrible. I built it up to the point where it was just like, I was launching a new thing as fast as we could just to pay payroll. As an entrepreneur, you kill something you get to eat, right? It's like the greatest thing in the world. Employees, they want to get paid every two weeks whether they killed anything or not. I did not realize that until they were like we need money and I'm like, but we haven't made any money. They're like you have to pay me. I'm like, what? I'm so confused. Like, okay. Anyway, it had grown and we didn't have a model, sustainable. Speaker 3: You just launched stuff to see if it works? Russell: Yeah. When I was by myself it was like, I had an idea today, let's try it. You launch it, it makes some money, sweet. And then it was like, I made 20, 30 grand. It was my wife and I, so it was like, that lasts nine months. You know? Caleb: What did you sell? Obviously I know the potato gun backstory. You said I talked about funnels for like a decade before that. What were you selling during that decade leading up to ClickFunnels? I know it's an inordinate amount of stuff. Is there anything not even close to funnels, like something ... Russell: Yeah. The very first, pre-potato guns, my very first big idea was ... Back then what everyone was doing, you know who Yanik Silver is. Yanik would write a book and then he would sell the resale rights to the books. Someone else would buy it and they could sell it. I remember I got online, I saw these books, I bought a book from Yanik and I'm like, I can sell this. I bought a book from somebody else. I was buying all these eBooks I could sell. But then inside the books they would have links back to all their sites. I'd sell the book and I was like, I made 10 bucks selling the book. And then inside the book Yanik is selling his thousand dollar course and seminars and things. They make all this money. I'm like, I got 10 bucks. He made like $1,000 off of me selling his book. I remember being mad. I was like I wish there was a way I could brand this ebook so that before somebody opens it and sees his ad they'd see my ad. That was the first idea I ever had, ever. So my first product was called Zip Brander, it was this little thing that would take an ebook and it would brand it. You open it up and it popped up an ad. You see the ad and you click a button and it would take you inside the ebook. It was my first thing. We launched that and I sold 20 or 30 copies of it. But that was the first money I ever made, it was amazing. I had a customer list, I was like this is amazing. And then the way I was selling those, I was going to forums. This is pre-Facebook, so all you little kids, before Facebook, before MySpace, before Friendster, we used to go to these things called forums. They were these things where people would talk all day. So we'd go to these forums. One of the rules in the forums is you could comment all you wanted but you could have a signature file. At the end you could have like, Russel Brunson, check out my new software Zip Brander. I'd go to these forums and I would just spend eight hours a day answering questions and asking questions and everything. People see my ad on every little thing. My footer was on everything. That's how I was selling Zip Brander initially. I was in 50 forums posting like crazy but I couldn't keep up with it. I was like, man, if I could create a software that would manage this whole thing, that would be amazing. So my second product is called Forum Fortunes. It was this little software that would manage your posting on every single forum. You post and you could see if someone responded back on Forum 49 it would pop up and you're like, oh, you can go find it and go back and comment and keep the discussion. I made it for myself and then we started selling that. We sold more of those because I now had a little customer base here and went bigger. After that it was the next. It was always what's the next thing. That's kind of how it started back in the days, little tools and things like that. Speaker 3: How do you know when you're shooting all these bullets, how do you know when you shoot a cannonball? Matt: Good question. Russell: The thing about it initially, I had been married, I was making zero dollars a year as a wrestler, so for me to make $600 in a month, that was a cannonball. That was insane. I thought I was the coolest kid in the world. $600 was insane. So I did four or five little things. I remember it was Christmastime and I remember my wife wanted to buy a couch and it was a $2,000 couch. I was just like, oh, I can't afford that. I don't have a job. I'm getting sick to my stomach. I had this idea, what if I do a sell and just sell a whole bunch of crap that we had. I had a bunch of eBooks I bought rights to, a couple of things I had created, so we made this Grinch sale. I remember I wrote the copy, it was like, it was the Grinch Before Christmas or something. It had a picture of the Grinch and his heart growing three sizes, I don't know. I wrote this copy. My wife and I had been married a year, she really wants a couch, I can't afford a couch, so if you guys buy this, if I sell 32 of these things, I can buy her a couch and put it under the Christmas tree. It will be amazing. Caleb: You said that in the copy? Russell: In the copy, yeah. It was the reason why. I still have the page, I can show it to you. I know exactly where it's at, I can show it to you. So I had the whole page and then only an email list of like a couple hundred people at the time. I still had an affiliate program, so at the top it had an affiliate link. So I sent an email to my list and went to bed that night. Someone on my list was a guy named Carl Galletti, I haven't heard about Carl in a long time. He was a big famous copy writer at the time. Carl went and saw the thing, bought it, and started affiliating. So he joined the affiliate program, he was like this is awesome. He took that email, sent it to his entire list of this huge thing. So I go to bed. I wake up the next morning, we're at $10,000 in sales. Matt: How much before you went to bed? Russell: Oh, like $30, $40 or something. I was like, what just happened. Did I rob someone? I didn't know what happened. I looked at my email and there's all these people who were like, hey, I bought two of them, I hope you can get your wife that couch. Oh, I sent it to my friend. All these people. Because Carl promoted it, all these other people who follow Carl saw it. Carl is like it's converting like crazy. Tons of people are buying it. I'm freaking out. I'm going to wrestling practice trying to answer customer support. I'm late for practice, I ran into wrestling practice, I get back out I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I made like $600 in sales." I'm freaking out. Anyway, the whole thing goes through and over that, I think it was a seven day sale or something like that, we made $35,000. Which is more money than I'd seen in all my lifetime combined times 100, right? I paid probably 10 grand in affiliates. We made, I don't know, $25,000 that we got to keep. I was like, "Oh my gosh." I told Colette, and Colette's like, my wife. I love her. She doesn't understand the business part of things at all. I was like, "We made $25,000." She was like, "Is it illegal?" First thing. "Are you going to go to jail? Is it illegal?" I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure." The first thing I did is I went and bought the couch for her, for Christmas. We got it back, I got a picture of her, sent it out to the list saying thank you so much, you got the Christmas gift, the couch. They all celebrated together, all the people. I was like oh my gosh, this is the greatest game of all time. This is so much fun. I was like, what's the next idea, what's the next thing. It was like that, these little things. After that one was done now I had way more customers, all these people that had bought my product knew who I was now so the next thing was easier so it incrementally kept growing and getting bigger. Somewhere along the line I launched the potato gun thing. Upsales of things. We didn't call them funnels back then. We called them sales flows or sales processes. Talk about your sales flow, what's your sales flow. Caleb: Sales flow. Russell: I remember Dylan Jones was our partner at ClickFunnels. Before Todd we tried to build something like ClickFunnels, we called it Click.com.com, which is a horrible name. But Dylan's, I still have all the UI images, and in there we had a whole section for sales flows and all these things. It's like, this was the first ClickFunnels. Because Dylan was on the UI eventually on ClickFunnels anyway, but we literally designed something like this five or six years earlier. Just crazy. Matt: Do you think that all those little failures and all the trying and that kind of energy is what brought you here today? Russell: For sure. It's the key. I wish I could grab everybody because everybody's like, okay, I'm waiting for my ClickFunnels, or I'm waiting for my thing. They're waiting and they're waiting and they're waiting. I was like, the reason why I got this thing was because I didn't wait. If someone were to give me ClickFunnels initially it would have been bankrupt in 15 minutes, right? You have to become worthy of the thing eventually. You don't become worthy by waiting, you become worthy by trying. And trying and trying and trying. Eventually, if you keep doing that, over time, then God's like, all right, he's going to do it. He's built 150 funnels, now I'll give him the idea. Matt: Wow, that's powerful. Speaker 3: How much more did you feel that all your other friends are in the same game? Matt: I hope you guys take there's more that's caught than Todd. That's some gold in what he just shared right there, what you were just sharing. But go ahead. What was the question? Speaker 3: I was just saying how much more would you fail if all your other friends were playing the same game? Russell: All my friends were like why are you launching more stuff? Why do you keep doing things? They do like one product launch a year. They got so annoyed. They were like, dude, stop doing stuff. I'm like, why would I stop doing this? This is so much fun. It was just confusing to me. Why don't you guys do more? Everyone, they make money they'd just be done. Caleb: Why would you keep doing more? Was it genuinely like one funnel away? Like this next funnel's the one. Were you just like you sold yourself on it, this is it, so you keep going? Or did you just really enjoy it? Russell: Well each one I thought was. Each one, every time I was so surprised, like this is amazing. That was the one. The next one's bigger. Oh my gosh, that was even better, who knew? And then I just kept going from there, you know what I mean? So I wasn't waiting for ClickFunnels or anything like that. I was just enjoying the journey every time. It was so exciting. Eventually it was like, oh crap, who knew that that was going to do what it did. Caleb: Was it all emails? Was there any ads or was there anything to scale the traffic? Russell: First 10 years was 100% emails, partnerships. There wasn't ads back then. I mean, there was Google ads, but the first initial Google slap happened about the time I was getting started. Prior to that a lot of guys I knew built their email list off of Google ads and then the slap happened. A lot of them had lists. I started getting to know those guys, going to events, meeting them, so that's how it started initially was tons of that. And then there was this big gap for years where paid ads weren't a thing. Some people did banner ads, but it wasn't consistent. It wasn't like it is nowadays. It was harder. You worked harder and all the stuff wasn't there. Mostly we focused on ... If you didn't have an email list, you weren't playing the game. It's like, who's got lists, how can you build lists, what can you do? Matt: You still think that's true to a degree? Russell: 100%. That's why the traffic seekers book was so important for me to write, I feel like, because most of the people in the game today have been blessed with Zuckerberg's simple Facebook ads that make the game easy. Matt: Wow. Russell: They've never focused on building lists. I was like, you guys, just so you know, Zuckerberg is going to screw us all. It's going to happen. Matt: Yeah. Caleb: It will happen. Russell: It's like, if you don't have a list you're all screwed. I've been through this for 18 years now, I've been through five or six cycles. I've seen people who made millions of dollars who now are not online. The people who have waded the storm the whole time are all the list builders. They're the ones who survived. Everyone else who's good at ads, they come and they go and they come and they go.

Register for the next LIVE episode at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Hey, what's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson, and we are trying out something really fun and new and exciting for the Marketing Secrets podcast and so wanted to tell you about it. So I did an episode that was actually live, we called it the Marketing Secrets Live Show and we did it on Clubhouse. And instead of me just talking for 15, 20 minutes, like a typical podcast, I did talk for 15, 20 minutes and at the end of it, I opened it for Q&A, we spent about 40 minutes on doing Q&A and it was a really cool experience for so many reasons. One was a chance to answer questions for a bunch of you guys. Number two is just it was fun doing it live and the energy was cool. So I think we're going to keep on doing it and want to invite you if you want to come on any of our live shows. All you do is go to clubhousewithrussell.com. It's clubhousewithrussell.com. It redirects you to the Marketing Secrets Live clubhouse room and you can join that room and then you'll be notified when we go live. I'll probably go live once a week or so and again, I'll be spending 15, 20 minutes talking and then after that, we'll go into Q&A and it'll be fun. So the next episode's going to be special. The first one is going to be my 15 to 20 minutes of me talking about the concept I want to talk about that day and the next step episode I'll share with you is the Q&A, and I hope you enjoy both sides of it and hopefully gets you pumped to come to the next Marketing Secrets Live show. Again, it'll be on Clubhouse, so make sure you get the Clubhouse app. But again, if you go to clubhousewithrussell.com, you can register. And with that said, I'm going to pick up at the very beginning of the Live Clubhouse and we'll go from there. We're here, everybody. What's up. This is our, technically it's the second time I've gone live on the platform. First time was a huge train wreck, we'll talk about that in a minute, but this is round two and I'm here. And Yhennifer, how are you feeling today? Yhennifer: I am feeling amazing, so excited to be here. I know that we were on for the funnel hacking live room and it was bananas. So I know that this one is also going to be amazing. Don't forget to make me a moderator real quick. Russell: You're officially now a moderator. Yhennifer: Awesome. There we go. I got the badge. I made it in the world. Russell: Amazing. I'm learning how to use it all. Okay. Can you hear me well? This is my first time using the setup and everything, I want to make sure you can hear me. Yhennifer: Yes, we can hear you perfectly fine. Welcome everybody. Russell: Welcome. Welcome. All right. Well, let me, while waiting for a few more people to jump on here for a second, I'll tell you guys what the game plan is, what we're trying to do here and then we'll dive into it. So we're going to be live for about an hour for about an hour and this is my second time officially using Clubhouse. I've been in Clubhouse a lot as a guest and hanging out, but the second time didn't get a room. First time I tried to do a room, did not know what I was doing, jumped in there. I brought everybody up to become speakers and it was chaos and anyway, it was kind of crazy. So I stepped back from it and was like, okay, I want to do this again but I want to do it this time a little more strategically. And so the game plan for what we're going to do is I'm going to basically be doing an episode of the Marketing Secrets podcast. So I'm going to talk for probably 15 minutes or so on a topic and then when that's done, Yhennifer is going to be my amazing, co-host, help me with this whole process, making sure I don't mess it up. Then we're going to bring you guys up, whoever wants to come up and ask questions or give comments or share things to deepen what we're talking about with everybody else. And that's the plan, so I think it should be fun. Anything I'm forgetting? Yhennifer: Yes. Make sure that you pin some people into this room. You have that little plus sign at the bottom guys, as you are hopping on here. Invite some friends that will be interested in what we're going to be talking about today, which is the secret behind the value ladder. Russell: It's so fun. All right. And I've also got this really cool, I feel professional, I've got a little board here. I click buttons, and if I tell you guys a joke, check this out. Did you hear that? Yhennifer: That is amazing. Russell: So I can do that. If we talk about money, I can be like this. And I also got the theme song for the Marketing Secrets podcast loaded up here. So this is the live version of the Marketing Secrets podcast, which I'm pumped for, hopefully you guys are pumped for as well. Like I said, I got about 15 minutes of stuff I'm going to talk about and then we'll open up for Q&A's. And so that is the game plan. So again, if you want to invite anybody you know, please invite them and then what I'm going to do is I'm going to queue the theme song right now and then we'll play it and we'll come back at 15 minutes to talk and then we'll open the blinds for Q&A. Does that sound good? Yhennifer: Awesome. Let's get the party started guys. Russell: All right, with that said, here is the theme song. All right, everybody. Welcome to our first ever official Marketing Secrets live show. I'm so excited to be here with you guys. We are doing this live on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. This is my first time really producing something like this, and I'm excited. So if anyone who is a listener to my podcast, you know that usually I spend about 15, 20 minutes talking about a topic and it ends there. I want to use this platform as a way for me to be able to talk about what I'm thinking about for next 15, 20 minutes and then, when it's finished, jump on with you guys and do Q and A and answer questions. Or if you guys want to share ideas or thoughts, whatever it is. It should be fun, so that's the game plan. The thing I want to talk about today... We titled this one The Real Secret Behind The Value Ladder. I did it for a couple of reasons. Number one is the value ladder is probably one of the least understood principles inside of this marketing game. And it's funny, because I think when you explain it, it's really simple, and be like, "Oh, I get it. I get it." But when I look at people's businesses, when they come in for consulting or they hire me for coaching or whatever it is, I look at it and some people have what we call a value maze, where there's 8 million different ways that a potential customer could go and it's confusing. And I'm like, "Where do you take a customer?" And they have all sorts of different things, right? I'm like, "Well, value maze is not a value ladder." So that's one thing. Where number two is like, "Oh, they have a product." They've got one thing and they're missing some of these, these key components. And so I want to share with you guys really quickly what the value ladder is, but then there's a big thing that most people are missing. And it is key. It's the key to ascend somebody from one spot to the next in your value ladder. It's the key to actually serve people with the highest level of value. It's the key to really have success and help your customers have success. And so, that's the stuff I want to talk about today. I'm going to geek out on this at a deeper level than I typically do because I'm hanging out with a bunch of people who are on Clubhouse. That means you guys are as nerdy as me if you're here with five minutes worth of warning that we're going live for marketing seminar, right? And so that's kind of the game plan. So, and then after afterwards, like I said, we'll open for Q and A and do some questions. If you guys have any feedback or if you want to share your value ladders and things like that and how you transition people from step to step, that's game plan. Okay. So, a couple of things. The value ladder right now is more important than anything I could talk to you about for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest ones is obviously with all of the changes happening in advertising between Apple and Facebook and their feud. I'm assuming that most of you guys have noticed that your cost per acquisition in most of your marketing campaigns, if you're buying ads on Facebook, have probably gone up. For a lot of you guys, it's gone up substantially, am I right? Okay. If you've read the DotCom secrets book, one of the quotes that I talk about a lot from my mentor, Dan Kennedy, he said that whoever can spend the most money to acquire a customer wins. Okay? This is something that like... I don't have tattoos, but if I had a tattoo, it would be tattooed on my forearm so I would never forget this. This is how important it is, right? Whoever can spend the most money to acquire a customer wins. I remember when I first got started in this game, I heard him say that and it didn't make any sense to me, okay? And I think a lot of you guys who have been in the market right now, playing this game for a couple of years, it's been easy if I'm completely honest. Facebook ads have made things easy and a lot of people made a lot of money without having to be really good entrepreneurs and really good marketers and really understanding things because it was easy. It was easy. If any of you guys had a chance to read my newest book, my third book, Traffic Secrets, the intro of Traffic Secrets, that the title was, there's a storm coming. Some of you guys probably read that. It was right when Coronavirus hit is when the book launched. And I said, "There's a storm coming." It's been so simple for so many years and I've been doing this now... This is my 19th year in this business, so I was playing this game before Facebook, before MySpace... Actually, Friendster was the hot social network at the time when I started this game. And so I've had a chance to see the ups and the downs and watch what happens to advertising platforms and networks over two decades now. I wanted to warn everybody, because so many people who have got in this game in the last few years where it was easy, where it's we focus on Facebook, and I'm like, "You guys have to understand there's a storm coming. We have to look at things differently. And if you're not, you're going to be in trouble." I think the real first big wave of that has been hitting right now with the battle between Apple and Facebook and all the things. I've seen a lot of people who messaged me, who are freaking out, who'd be like, "Our ad costs are going up. What do we do? What do we do?" The reality is what you should do is you should be celebrating, okay? If you're an actual marketer, if you're a funnel hacker, if you're of our people, right? You've been hearing me preach this now for a decade, right? Whoever can spend the most money to acquire customer wins, right? If you understand that, the fact that all the CPAs, the cost per acquisition, these costs are going up and it's getting more and more expensive should not scare you to death. It should make you excited because all it really means is that more and more people are going to fall out of the game. Okay? Less competition, less people, less people fighting over ad dollars, all those kind of things. It's going to drop, okay, because the real marketers are going to keep playing the game and the rest of them are going to disappear. Like I said, I've been doing this now two decades. I've seen this. I've seen people who are making millions of dollars a month one day. And then, because of an algorithm shift, they're now out of business and I've never seen them come back, which blows my mind to this day, is because they didn't understand these core principles. And so, the core principle I want to drill into your guys' mind today is the concept of a value ladder, and then I'm going to show you guys the actual secret behind the value ladder. That's the key that makes this whole thing work, okay? So the basics of the value ladders... If anyone who has been around me for more than five minutes, you've heard me talk about this before, so I'm not going to spend too much time on the actual value ladder, because that part's the most simple, but a value ladder is like... Somebody comes into your world, right? And you give them some value. So my goal is... Obviously, there's a lot of free things I do online, right? My free podcast. I'm doing this live right now, right? Some of you guys are jumping into this room and this is the bottom of my value ladder, right? It didn't cost you any money, okay, but I'm providing value. Hopefully if I do a good job of it, you're going to be like, "Man, that Russell guy? He talks kind of fast, but I got some value that was really quick. What else does he have?" Right? And you naturally want more. That's the cool thing about human beings. If we receive value of something, we naturally want more. So if you see cool video or podcast, or you're here on Clubhouse, or something, you get some value, you're going to start looking around. You're like, "Hey, Russell talked about that book. What was that book he said? Oh, DotCom Secrets, or Traffic Secrets." Whatever one grabs your attention, right? And you're going to go online and go to DotComSecrets.com. You go over there, and you're like, "There's the book. $9.95 shipping and handling." You're like, "Whoa, in the Clubhouse room, he spent an hour with us and that was amazing. Can you imagine what I would get if I actually read his book." Right? You put your credit card in. You buy the book. Then you get the book and you start reading it, right? Now you're moving up my value ladder. You start reading the book and you're like, "Oh my gosh, this funnel thing is really, really cool. In this book, he talks about the 10 core funnels and how they work and, all of a sudden, I see how it could work in my business and I can see how it works in other people's..." And you start freaking out. You're like, "This is so amazing." Right? And you got value. You're like, "I paid 10 bucks and look at the value I got from this thing. This is insane, right?" And then what happens? You naturally want more. You start looking. "What's the next thing? What else does Russell have?" Start looking around, and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my gosh, Russell is doing this 2 Comma Club Live virtual event coming up in two weeks. I want to be part of that. What is that?" Okay. So you go, you sign up for the event, and I try to provide value first. So the way that 2 Comma Club Live works is you put in your credit card and you go through the entire three-day experience for free. Then, afterwards, you decide if it's worth it, right? So there's no me trying to scam anybody out of money. It's like, look, come show up. I'm going to serve you like crazy, and at the end of it decide if it was worth it. If it is, then you can pay for. If not, then don't. Right? So they come through, do 2 Comma Club Live Event, and they go through this experience for three days and they're learning, they're growing, and they're getting all this stuff. They're like, "This is amazing. I'm getting so much value from this. What else does he have?" Right? And then you look at Funnel Hacking Live, our big live event, or maybe it's our 2 Comma Club Coaching. Or if you're inside of 2 Comma Club Coaching, after you've gone through that process, you're like, "What's next? I want the next thing." So, after you've gone through our 2 Comma Club Coaching program, it's a $25,000 program, our next tier up is my inner circle, right? And then after my inner circle, there's new program coming out called Category Kings. And so this is my value ladder, right? It all starts with me coming out there and putting out as much value as possible and, if you like it, you're going to naturally want more. Okay? So that's kind of the concept of value ladder. Again, I don't want to go too much deeper than that because you can read about in the DotCom Secrets book, and I've talked about a lot of other places. That's the core concept I wanted to put out there. Right? And so, the reason why these ads are changing, right? Ad costs are going up and everyone's freaking out. That's why this is so important because what will typically happen is most business owners... And I see this so much, even inside our funnel hacker community, unfortunately, is they create a product and have this product and it works really well and they start selling that product. Right now, because the game has been easy for the last four or five years, they spend $50 in ads. They make a $100. They're like, "Oh, this game works." Right? But now with all these different changes, and the algorithm shifting, and the fight between Apple and Google and Facebook and things, now these costs are going up. Well, now you're spending a $100 to make $100. And then, it's eventually going to be $200 to make a $100, right? And all of the amateurs are starting to fall away, okay? I remember my very first marketing seminar I ever went to, I heard Mike Lemon said... He said, "Amateurs focus on the front end." Said, "Amateurs focus on the front end." And I didn't know what that meant until I started getting into business and I started saying, "Oh my gosh, my first two or three tiers on my value ladder, all that money is going back into just paying for customers. It's not until tier three, four, five, I start actually making money." And the deeper you can go into your value ladder without making any money, the more successful you're going to be, right? Because whoever can spend the most money to acquire a customer wins, according to Dan Kennedy, who is my mentor, and I trust everything my mentors say to me, so it's very, very true. Okay. So I want to kind of start with that. Now, the next thing I want to talk is... Again, most of you guys at this point have some kind of value ladder, but the thing, and this is where I talked about the real secret behind the value ladder, the thing I really want to share with you guys today, and this is the nugget that hopefully you get and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I got value." And then we'll open up to take some Q and A's and stuff. So the big secret is each tier of the value ladder, the thing that you sell at that tier has got two goals. Number one is to provide value, right? It's to scratch the itch they have, right? So you give them this thing that's like, "Oh my gosh, I got value. That was amazing. I scratched my itch." But usually when you solve one problem for somebody, it opens up a new problem. Right? So, for example, when I give you a book on how to grow your company funnels, you like, "I read this book. I got value." And then, all the sudden, you're like, "Oh my gosh, I need a funnel." And then, hey, lo and behold, guess what I sell? I have this funnel software that I sell called ClickFunnels. You should use it, right? And so it opens up the next thing. Each tier on the value ladder should provide value, help somebody at that tier, and then, and then by giving them that value, it should open up the next step, right? Because after you have a funnel, what do you need? Well, for me, you buy my first book. It's like, "Here's how to build a funnel." And then second book like, "Hey, here's how to do the messaging for your funnel." Third book's how to get traffic to your funnel. It moves somebody up and down. So the first time I got this... Some of you guys know Chet Holmes. Chet Holmes passed away a few years ago. He wrote The Ultimate Sales Machine, which is still, to this day, one of my top 10 favorite business books. Chet actually became a friend of mine. I spent a lot of time with him in business and traveling, and just had a lot of respect for him. As I was working with him, he wanted us to help him with one part of their business. And so, because that, he opened up his books and showed me his entire business model, which was really, really cool. So he showed me this entire business model, and I want to walk you guys through how it works. Because when he showed this to me, this is one of the first time I got it. That each step of my value ladder is selling the next thing. So the way Chet's business model works is he runs radio ads, right? So he's running radio ads. In the radio ad, it would say, basically, "Call this number to get nine free reports," or something like that. So they'd run the radio ads. It would call the number. Someone would answer the phone, say, "Hey, what email address do you want to email your nine free reports to?" You give them an email address, cool. And said, "Hey, why have you on the line, Chet normally..." He used to do these seminars that were three hours long. He would fly around the country and people would pay, I can't remember, $800 to come to these three hour long seminars to help them to grow their company. And because you're at home, we're doing virtual seminars, and how would you like to come to these virtual seminars? And he said, the seminar for you guys, for virtual one, was $300, but the cool thing is you don't have to pay for it up front. You can come to the seminar, attend the entire thing, then after it's over, if you liked it, then you pay the $300. Right? And so that's how Chet's value ladder began. Okay? And so that's kind of where I got to dive in. So I started going on these seminars. I wanted to understand what he was doing. And I'd watch this three hour long web seminar that they would run, and they would teach people and coach them show them all this amazing stuff. It was awesome. The three-hour training was worth the $300 bucks. And so, when the three hour training was done, at the end of it, he said, "Hey, really quick, I want to find out from all you guys. The last three hours, was it worth it? If it was, tell me, and if so, we'll bill you the agreed upon $297, like we agreed upon. But if not, let me know and we won't bill your credit card. Totally cool. No harm, no foul." And he'd go person by person. These web classes would have like 10 people on a time. So he'd be like, "Joe, how was it for you? Was it good?" And then Joe would be like, "Yeah, it was awesome." Then he'd be like, "Cool. Sam, Julie, Mike..." And he'd go through everyone and get everybody to say yes, and they'd bill their credit cards. And he said, "Okay, now that the seminar is over. It's officially over. Got all the value. Really quick. The biggest question people ask us after they go through this experience is, I want more. What's the next step? What's the next tier?" And he said, "Do you care if I spend a couple minutes talking about our six week long mentoring program where we can take these principles and help you instill them inside your business?" And of course, everyone's like, "Oh, sure, definitely." And he walked and transitioned to the six week program and he explained it all. And then, from there, he would try to close every single person on the call on the six week program. Right? And so then that was the next step in the theater. And then you went through six week program. At the end of the six week program, they give them two bonus calls, right? And the two bonus calls are with the coach, trying to figure where they're at and where they're trying to get. And then, from there, the coach upsold them to the next program, to the higher ticket program. And so, each tier in the value ladder provided value, provided the thing they promised. And the end of it, there was a mechanism, there was a tool, there was a process in place that then took that person and ascended them to the next tier inside the value ladder. Okay? That was the key. And as I started watching, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." And what Chet did in his business, it was really fascinating. This is kind of off topic, but just an idea to put in your guys' head. Every single person in Chet's organization, his entire company, everybody was paid a percentage of the sale. So what would happen is that the person buying the radio ads, he or she would get a percentage of the money that came from the webinar one, and then from the six week program, and all the way through the entire line, so they all were incentivized. The person in sales on the webinar got incentivized on everything that happened after that person touched them, and so on and so forth. The way he structured it... I remember him sitting there. He said, "Russell, this is the secret to business. Don't have tons of overhead. It'll drown you." He said, "You got to set up your structure so that everybody's paid based on a percentage of commission." He's like, "That way, when you have big months, everyone gets big checks and small months, everyone get small checks, but we all do it together. That way you're not stuck with the overhead and things." Unfortunately, I didn't use that in ClickFunnels. I wish I would have. If I get all 400 employees that work here to... I'm just joking, but it was really just a cool thing. So this was the secret to value ladder that Chet taught me, is that each tier in the value ladder, part of the product, part of the thing that they're buying, actually ascends them to the next tier. Okay? There's a good way and a bad way to do this, too. I've seen this in the past, when I've bought somebody's book, where I'm like, I see the book, the ad's awesome. I buy the book and I read it, and the entire book is a sales letter for their next thing. I hate that. That drives me crazy. But if you look at my process, I want to blow people's minds. So if you go through it and you read the DotCom Secrets book, you'll notice that the entire book, like whatever 297 pages, is just pure strategy, tactics, like nothing. And at the end of it, there's a little chapter on, "Hey, if you need a tool to help this, it's called ClickFunnels." And we push them to ClickFunnels, right? And then there's a sequence after they buy the book. There's a whole marketing sequence that gets somebody from there to the next tier in our value ladder. Right? Then if someone comes to 2 Comma Club Live event, right? It's a virtual event. It's three days long. They go through the process. And inside of that event, that is the mechanism where we sell our 2 Comma Club X Coaching program, right? And so they go to that and they join 2 Comma Club X, okay? And in the past, I had an inner circle and my Category Kings, which has been closed for about two years now, but I'm going to sprinkle some hints here. I'm actually reopening those here this year, which is exciting. And so what's cool about it is then people inside 2 Comma Club X, they can then naturally ascend up the next year. And then people inside of the inner circle then can naturally ascend up our Category Kings. And so there's a process in place, but everything is designed and structured around knowing that I've got to give them the value I promise them, but then, at the end of it, there's some mechanism that moves them to the next tier, that moves them up the value ladder. Okay? That's the power. That's the real secret behind the values. Not just having a value ladder of, oh, there's a product here, product here, product here. It's structuring your product so that the product does the selling to move somebody to the next tier. Okay? If you guys come to Funnel Hacking Live, you will notice something. Most of our speakers, not all of them, but most of them are people who are in my inner circle. They are in our 2 Comma Club X Coaching program, things like that. And so, as we introduce them, we're like, "Hey, here's 2 Comma Club X Coaching member, so-and-so." And so they see this and people see over and over and over again, that the people who are on stage are the people in the next program higher, and it gives people incentive to want to go and ascend up and move up the value ladder. Does that make sense? So these are just some of the things, but that's the real secret in value ladder is structuring your products in a way that, number one, gives so much value that they want to ascend up, and number two, there should be mechanisms built inside of each tier that actually physically move them to the next tier. Okay? You get Chet Holmes on his free web class at the beginning. At the end of it, pushed them into six week program. In the six week program, he had two bonuses coaching calls. Those coaching calls were then there to send them to the next tier and so on and so forth. And so, that's kind of the process of what a value ladder is. But, again, this is the piece I wanted you guys to get. The real secret is understanding that. Creating tons of value and building the mechanism to actually get somebody to ascend to the next tier.

A late night conversation with my dad about how entrepreneurs can protect their personal assets. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com Also, don’t forget to check out bookease.com ---Transcript--- Hey, what's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Podcast. This is actually a really cool late night edition. I'm at my house right now. It is getting close to midnight. I'm hanging out with my dad, who's in town and we're talking about business and some stuff and folks who know my dad, he does a lot of business structuring and accounting and stuff for a lot of the funnel hackers. In fact, almost everybody who joins the Tacoma Callbacks Program eventually ends up getting my dad to set up their books and their company and everything. So he's a lot of experience with a lot of our entrepreneurs, and we're talking about protection and how to protect yourself from creditors and predators. And not only from a business standpoint, but from personal standpoint. And so we thought, hey, while we're sitting here talking about this, we might as well record a podcast. Now, I don't do a lot of podcasts that are interviews, which is kind of fun having my dad here. And I'll also state that I'm not a lawyer or I'm not giving you legal advice, something you should definitely look into yourself. If you do want help structuring these kinds of things that we're talking about. My dad and his company is available to help that. And we'll talk about that kind of at the end of this podcast. So with that said, we're going to cue the theme song, when we come back, I'll have the chance to introduce you to my dad. All right everybody welcome back. Like I said, we're excited to hear tonight, at the kitchen table, all of the kids are finally in bed. And my dad and I are talking about business and excited to have him here and kind of share some really cool things with you guys. Things that a lot of times, as entrepreneurs don't think about, we think about creating things and selling things. And a lot of times we don't think about protecting ourselves. And so that's what people like my dad do is help us with those kinds of things. So, we can keep selling stuff, keep creating stuff, not ended up losing a lot of the things that we've earned. Anything from houses to your money, to all sorts of stuff. And so that's what we're talking about tonight. So, dad, how are you feeling tonight? Ross Brunson: I'm feeling really good, Russell. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to chat with you and with your audience tonight. I think it should be fun. Russell: Yeah. So, what we're going to start with is I know in the past we've talked about protecting your business, and how you structure entities. I know you do that for a ton of people in the ClickFunnels community, a lot of funnel hackers and things like that. I don't even know how many of our people we sent your way. I know that there's been a lot, but I'm curious, like just with all the people that you're working with, you're setting a business, people thinking past just their business structure and think about the personal stuff or just kind of the business stuff typically right now? Ross: Well, most people, when they contact me, they're interested in protecting their business and that's understandable because they're just going into business and there's a lot of roadblocks out there, a lot of pitfalls that they can step into. And so they come to me and they talk to me about what type of business should I have? Should it be a corporation? Should it be an LLC? Should it be some other type of entity? And we go through and we discuss that. And we like to discuss things with our clients, we point out three major points that we like to address as we are talking to them about their businesses. One, we like to make sure that the business that we helped them, set up around there, the structure we set up around their business. We want to make sure that it gives the best liability protection to the individual. The second thing is we want to make sure that it's easy to operate in. You don't spend all your time working on the business and not have any time to sell your products to people or develop customers and things. And the third thing we like to look at is to see if there is some sort of inherent tax savings ability within the entity that you might be able to take advantage of if you find that you are starting to make a lot of money in your business, and you're spending a lot of money in the taxes. So those are the things we've kind of discussed over time with a lot of your clients. And it's been very well-received, and we've helped hundreds of your internet marketing... Russell: Entrepreneurs, super nerds, whatever we want to call ourselves. Ross: Whatever you want to call yourselves… Russell: Funnelhackers! Ross: set up their businesses. Russell: What's funny is that, and we've told this in other times we've talked publicly, but like when I first started my business, I think I'm like a lot of entrepreneurs where we get excited, we start selling things. And then for me, I'd been selling things for like a year and a half or two years. And we were at a family reunion and I was telling my dad, like "I'm making money, selling things on the internet." And he was like, "So, who's doing your books?" I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about?" "Who's paying taxes." I'm like, "That's the cool thing on the internet. There's no taxes. You get to keep all the money." And he was like, "But you have to pay taxes, Russell." So, my dad came up and started to help me structure things way back. And it's almost 18 years ago now, which is crazy. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs come into our coaching programs or come to ClickFunnels, and all they're thinking about sending out was, which is how do I sell something? And so it's been nice as so many people who are selling things, you're coming back and like, "Okay, it's restructuring", getting your business in place. They actually having the right kind of business where you're not getting taxed nearly as much. And all those things that typically we don't think about when we're getting started. We're just excited to try to sell stuff. And so let's call that you're doing the business structure. And I think the second side of it, and this is something I didn't realize until my business started growing, right, is just the legal liability, not only to your business, but also to yourself personally I don't think I would ever believe that people sued other people until like my business started growing. And I literally have full-time legal counsel now because people through ClickFunnels, people are suing ClickFunnels clients that comes to me. There's just all sorts of stuff. And so I'm more and more aware of it all the time. And I think that's, what's fascinating we're talking about tonight is I think a lot of people have structured their business to protect themselves. A lot of them haven't thought about it from the personal standpoint yet. Protecting their personal assets as well. And the personal assets can be a lot of things. Do you want to talk about some of the things that those could be, because it could be anything like all sorts of stuff. Ross: Yeah. As you're saying, people spend a lot of time and effort protecting their business assets, but they don't think about their personal assets. When I say personal assets, I mean, things like most people have a savings account. Some people invest in money market accounts or they'll purchase CDs from banks, or maybe they'll set up a brokerage account and purchase stocks and bonds and mutual funds and things, maybe they're into Bitcoin. Russell: Yeah. Bitcoin Ross: Then... Russell: Buying cryptocurrency, we're buying Russell coin and all sorts of stuff. Ross: Right. And so people buy those things and are they also purchase homes and cars and boats. And then they create businesses. And a lot of people like to purchase rental real estate. And they do this and this is great because this is how they grow their family wealth. But the problem is, is that they title everything in their own name when they do this. Personally in their own name. Russell: It's interesting, because I sit at my big point count with all my personal name. And then we recently company ones and it's way harder to get a company one set up, because my guess is most of you guys have your Bitcoin, especially if you're using a Coinbase or Gemini or one of the big crypto things. You're probably, at least if you're like me, you just set up on your personal name, could you even think about it? You're like, oh, this is way easier. Anyway. So yeah. I'm guessing that most of us, including me have done this incorrectly at the get go. Ross: Yeah. Russell: So, the question then I'd add is, okay, so we've talked about a particular business, but like what's... It will say I have this stuff, I have my cryptocurrency, I've got my house, I got my car. I got my things, all my personal name. Why is that a problem? Why should I be concerned about that? Ross: Yeah. That's a very good question. If you think about it, if you have everything titled in your own name, it belongs to you personally and they call those personal assets and unfortunately personal assets can be taken from you. For example, let's just say, one day you're driving down the freeway at freeway speeds. Maybe you're at 65, 70 miles an hour and somebody or something distracts you for a mere second and you look away and you're dealing with this and you look up and you find that all the traffic in front of you is stopped and you don't have enough time to put on your brakes. And bam, you hit into the back end of this car at 65 or 75 miles an hour at that type of an impact, he's going to probably hurt the guy's back, break his back or snap his neck. Russell: 13 car pile-up. Ross: 13 car pile ups, yeah. And so at that point in time, let's say it was a serious accident. Let's say there was a neck broken or a back broken. And the person became paralyzed and could no longer work for the rest of his life. And in that situation, he's going to have a lot of medical bills right up front. And then he's going to have to have round the clock care the rest of his life. And the amount of money you have for your insurance policy on your cars is not going to be enough, no matter how much you have to take care of that. And so if one of those things were to occur, the courts would want to find out if you own any assets that they can take from you and give to this injured party to compensate them for that injury. And so let's say this person's files his lawsuit against you. And it looks like he's going to be able to win. The courts are going to then give you a list and say, we need you to list out all your assets for us. Russell: Give us your Bitcoin now! Ross: Do you have a savings account? Well, yeah, I guess I do. Do you have bank CDs? Yeah, I got some of those. What about money market accounts. Yeah. I got some of those. You have a brokerage account with stocks, bonds mutual funds? Yeah. I got some of that. Bitcoin? Yeah, I got some of that. Russell: Do you have a boat, do you have a car? What do you got? Ross: What do you got? Boats, cars, all these things, and you're telling them and the judge is going good, good, good, good. Russell: Now we know what you got. Ross: Now we know what we've got. And so he says, this guy is going to need round the clock care, the rest of his life, it's going to be extremely expensive and you injured him. It was your fault. So we're going to take all these personal assets that you own that are titled in your name. And we're going to change the title out of your name, into the name of this person that was injured. And so you could lose every single thing you've been building all your life for many years, possibly just because you were distracted for a mere second while traveling down the freeway. Russell: This is the reason why everyone should drive Teslas because Tesla's have auto drive, which would solve that problem. But we're not selling Tesla's tonight, but it's not just that like, it could be all sorts of things, right? It could be a car accident. It could be somebody sues you for a million things. They took one of your supplements that you sell and it got them sick. It could be... I mean, there's a million different things. I mean, the number of lawsuits that happen nowadays is insane. And people try to sue you over everything. So it could be as ridiculous as like, I didn't like your tweet, you posted the other day, as dumb as that is, people can sue you for that stuff. Or they didn't like the way you respond or whatever it is. I'm curious do you know how many lawyers do we have nowadays? How many lawsuits are happening on average? Ross: Yeah, I have some statistics actually… Russell: This makes me want to cry actually. Ross: The US financial education foundation and they have done a study. And they say that it's estimated that there's over 40 million lawsuits filed every year in the United States. And that you asked about the number of lawyers, they say that the average number of lawyers exceeds over 1 million lawyers in our country at this point in time. But if you take that 40 million lawsuits and let's say just divided it by 365 days a year, I mean, that's Saturday, Sundays, holidays. It would still come out to 109,589 lawsuits filed each day in the United States. Russell: Looking at per state, you're looking at that divide by 50. I don't know the math, but that's a lot. Yeah. They're coming after you. So, my question is, and it's fun that very first time my dad taught me this stuff. And the very first event I ever did, what is that, probably 17, 18 years ago, first time I ever did an internet marketing event. My dad came and gave a presentation and he titled his presentation, creditors and predators. And so the question is how do we protect ourselves and our assets from both creditors and predators, people who are coming after us? And I want you to understand too, like, it is insane. The amount of frivolous lawsuits, like the bigger you get, the more you're going to get. I get frivolous lawsuits. They come to us, they're just insane, where you're like just people literally trying to find money. I'll give you a good example of one is somebody signed up for ClickFunnels, And when you sign up, it says, hey, you put in your credit card, and then it says, if my billing doesn't go through, a credit card fails, please text me so that my service doesn't get interrupted, and they type in their phone number. Somebody did that. They signed up for ClickFunnels account, put their credit card in, put in their cell phone number, clicked little check boxes said, "Yes, text me if my credit card fails", it turns out they put in a credit card that was like one of those throwaway ones. And so the first bill went through, but then 30 days later, the bill didn't go through. So our system fired off a text message like that to, they got this text message. And then they filed a TCPA law case against us. And we got sued and it costs me $20,000 to fight this one lawsuit. And we won because the person who checked the box, but cost me 20 grand to fight it. Okay? And that was like one text message was sent and anyway, so it's insane. People can see you for anything, even if it's complete fake. That person that we found, Larry, find the person who did that. And they filed like a thousand TCPA cases a week or something like that. Just because they signed for everything, putting their cell phone number in and they're suing everybody. So like, there's people like that. These are the predators that are out there that are trying to do these things. And it happens to me more often, the bigger we get and it's insane to me, which is why we have legal counsel and we have these things, but I just want to put that out there because most guys you might "Oh, that's never going to happen to me", but as you start growing your business, it's going to happen. And so you got to start thinking about these things now, and protecting yourself now, because the bigger you get, the bigger target you become. Ross: Right. And so we want to be able to protect our assets and you might ask, "Well, okay, how do we do that? I understand protecting my business assets. I can go ahead and set up an LLC or corporation to protect my business assets. But how do I protect my personal assets? What am I going to do? And how is it even possible that I could protect those types of things?" Well, there was a very famous statement by Nelson Rockefeller. I don't know if you know the Rockefeller family, they're the ones that started standard oil, they're some of the major families in the world. Russell: Rockefeller Habits is an amazing book if you guys haven't read it yet. Ross: Yeah, and so they've made lots and lots of money. And of course, as they, just like Russell said, as Russell started making money, people started suing them. Well, same thing happened with the Rockefellers. They started making a lot of money and people wanted it and they started getting sued and they were losing. And they were losing their assets because people were suing them. And so they finally it came, it dawned on them and they made this really interesting statement that I think everybody should know and understand. And they said basically the secret to success is to own nothing but control everything. Russell: I like that. So, that's awesome. The secrets to success is to own everything or to own nothing, but to control everything. So how does somebody like me? How would we do something like that? Ross: Okay, great. Well, we do that by using another type of an entity. We talked about corporations and limited liability companies for your business assets, but there are really nice entity types for your personal assets. And one of them would be called the limited family partnership or limited partnerships. And so they call them nickname, and kind of limited family partnerships because families set these things up all the time they're used in estate work. if you're trying to set up a way to pass on your estate to your children and your grandchildren, the attorneys will use a limited partnership to do that. That's one of the main functions of it, but it can come into play and help us out here when we're trying to protect our personal assets. And so how can it do that? What characteristics does it have that allows it to do that? Well, the first characteristic comes from the way our laws define the term person. Now, Russell, if I was to ask you, "Who's a person? What's a person?" What would you say? Russell: I’d say human being with a brain and a heart. At least a heart. I don't know. Some of them don't have brains. I'm not going to lie, just kidding. Ross: And they’re still currently alive, right? Because if they were dead, they'd be a corpse. So, that would be a person. And yeah, that is actually a good definition of a person. But our laws say, "Well, that's not quite right. In our opinion", they say, "We feel a person as a corporation. We feel a person as a limited liability company. We feel a person has a limited partnership. We feel a person is a trust. And we feel a person as a living, breathing individual, that's alive here on this earth", so they greatly expand the definition of a person. Now, the interesting thing, when they do that, they expand that definition they have a little twist in there that's really beneficial to us. That twist is they say, "Even though you created this person, and even though you control this person a hundred percent, and even if this person owned any assets and those assets generated income, and that income you take and use for yourself, even if all those things are true and happens, that person is not you, it's someone separate and distinct from you." And this person can... Our laws give these artificial people the same rights and privileges that you and I have as individuals. They can have their own name just like we have our own name. They can have their own EIN number, which is similar to our social security number. They can hold title to any type of property that you can think of. They can open up savings accounts, money market accounts, Bitcoin accounts they can do all these things. They can, if someone's bothering them, they can sue that person under their own name. So they can do all these things in their own name. And so because of that fact, we are able to utilize these characteristics of a separate person from us to be able to provide liability protection for our personal assets. Russell: You're saying the characteristics of limit of these people sound like my own kids, except for you said that you can control them, and then they have to listen to you. So it's kind of like a teenager, except for you have no control over your teenagers. They don't listen to you. So, very similar. Ross: Yeah. So how can we use these characteristics to own nothing but control everything? Well, first off, as we mentioned, we'd like to create a limited family partnership that we can control. Remember, we control it, we create it, we control it, we reap the benefits of any income returns, so we do that. And then what we would want to do is transfer the title to your savings account out of your name and into the name of the limited partnership. Remember we said, it can open up its own bank, account savings, account money, market accounts, and things. If you have any money market accounts, you'd want to immediately change the title into the limited partnership, the name of the limited partnership. If you had stocks and bonds and mutual funds and a brokerage account, you'd want to shift those over into the name of the limited partnership. If you have bank or a Bitcoin account, what do you call those, wallets? With the Bitcoins in. You'd want to change the name into the name of the limited partnership and not your personal name. And by doing that, now this person owns those assets and you don't, you no longer own them, but as I mentioned, you control them. And if they make money, the money belongs to you, but that person is not you. So, that fact that that person is not you. How is that going to help you? Well, let's go back to that accident we talked about traveling down the freeway and you're distracted and boom, you hit into this person. And now the courts are asking you to list your assets. And you know that you've wisely beforehand, titled all these assets into the name of your limited partnership. So, now you look at their list that they're wants you to fill out for assets. And they're saying, do you have a savings account? No, I don't. Do you have a brokerage account? No. Any money market accounts? No. Any bank CDs? No. Bitcoin accounts? No. And you're answering truthfully because they're under our laws those assets do not belong to you. They belong to this other person that's not you. Russell: You control that person though. Therefore… you can ride in the boat whenever you want to. Ross: That's right. Exactly. And so the nice thing is, is if you think about it, in that accident we talked about, it was you driving the car that caused that accident to occur. Well, was your limited partnership in the car with you? No. Did the limited partnership distract you in any way while you were driving? No. The limited partnership teach you how to drive a car? No. Did limited partnership manufacture the car? No. That limited partnership didn't do anything to be involved in that accident, to cause that accident to have occurred. It has done nothing to cause that to happen. And because of the fact that that's the case, that person is innocent in the eyes of our laws. And so a court cannot go. through you, the person that caused the accident to this other person, who's not you, and was not involved in the accident and take that person's assets from them. They can't do that. So, all of a sudden, now you have a very safe place to title and hold title to your personal assets that a creditor, or predator can not get to no matter what you do in your personal life, but it's even better than that. It's also protected from anything you do in your business life. Because as an LLC or as a corporation, they had that veil of liability protection that keeps this creditor or predator that's suing your business from going through the business itself to the owners and taking their assets. So it's protected from anything you do in your business life, anything you do in your personal life. And so, as a result, you have a probably only place that you can have to have this type of protection for your personal assets. Russell: So can limited family partnerships be sued? Ross: That's a very good question. Can they be sued? Because if they could be sued all those assets you're titling there could be taken, right? Just like if they're in your name and you injure somebody, they can be taken. So can they be sued? Well, if you think about it, when it comes to a person or a business being sued, there's only about four reasons why a lawsuit can occur. One, if a person creates a product, and sells that product, and the person buys that product and it's injures them, then that person could Sue the business. Or let's say that the business was a service business, it was providing services for people. And they paid for those services, and then down the road felt that they were injured somehow or another, they could Sue the business. Or let's say if the business gave out advice and people took that advice and something happened and they felt they were injured. Well, if they did that, they could sue that person or that business who gave out that advice. And the only other way the business could be sued is if that business or that entity partners up with someone else, either another living, breathing individual, or even another artificial person. And the two partners got mad at each other and wanted to sue each other, then a lawsuit can occur. But the way these limited partnerships that we create are set up, it will never provide a product ever. It will never provide a service to anybody. It never gives out any advice. And the only person it could ever partner up with would be you and no one else, so… Russell: you can’t sue yourself. Ross: You can't sue yourself. Russell: At least you shouldn't. Ross: And so as a result, there's no way it can be sued. It's just a kind of a silent partner that holds title to all your possessions that you can control and reap the benefits from that cannot be sued. And so those assets cannot be taken from you out of that limited partnership. Russell: Okay. So, set up limited family partnership, we put our assets, we put our things into that. Then what's the next step? What do we do with the assets and stuff after they're in there? Ross: Okay. You would do like you would do if you had them titled in your own name, let's say you had a savings account. Well, as your businesses are doing well, you're receiving excess money out of your business over and above your normal monthly expenses. You most likely want to create a savings account. So you'd create a savings account in the name of your limited partnership, and you started funding money into it. Maybe down the road that's growing, you're feeling good about it. And then maybe you'd say, "Well, a money market account may give me a little better interest. So I'm going to open up a money market account as well. So I'm going to start pumping some money there." Then may be one day you're in the bank. And the banks manager says, "Look at these great CD rates we've got. You ought to purchase a CD, a bank CD", and you look at them and you say, "Well, yeah, that's pretty nice, better than I can get some other places. So yeah, I'll invest in some bank CDs." Russell: When you're on Facebook, and you're like, "Everyone's talking about crypto. That's got to be the greatest thing in the world." Ross: Right. So you would set up your crypto account in the name of your limited partnership and you start funding these things, all these things, that you're going to grow your wealth in are all going to be titled in the name of this limited partnership. So, in essence, what happens is that limited partnership becomes your family bank. This is where you hold your wealth. This is where you grow your wealth in your family bank, in this safe environment where people, they can't sue you if you injured them personally, and they can't sue you and take those assets, if you injured them in the course of your business. So that's what we would want to do is start funding these things, creating our own family bank, where we can then grow those funds. Now, as you're growing those funds, there's another benefit to it. Not only do you have a place to store your money and grow it, but most entrepreneurs that I've found they find something that they like and they set up a new business and then down the road, they say, "Well, I see 10 other businesses. I'd like to get involved in." Russell: Shiny object syndrome. Ross: Yeah. I'd like to get into e-commerce or man I'd like to get into rental real estate or man there's all these great things I can invest my money into. And I'd like to do some of that. And so let's say that you want to get into rental real estate. And you start looking at properties, and you then say, "Okay, here's a house I'd like to buy", but then you look at your personal assets. Well, do you have a savings account? No, because it's titled in the name of your limited partnership. Do you have money market accounts, brokerage accounts, anything in your name? Well, no you don't because you don't own those things anymore. So they're all owned and controlled by your limited partnership and it's controlled by you. So you had that money growing in there. And let's say that you're sitting there thinking to yourself, "I have the money to buy this rental real estate, but I would sure like to do it if I had the money." Then you could look to your family bank, which now kind of becomes the investment arm of your business, because it's going to say, "Well, I have the money I've saved all this money. I have the money available to purchase this rental real estate with." And so the limited partnership says, "Let's partner up together and I'll put the money in and you use the money and buy the rental property and we'll share the profits 50/50." And so now you have another stream of income flowing towards your limited partnership besides what you personally contribute to it. And so now you're going to have a chance of growing your wealth at a faster pace than what you would have done normally. So it not only becomes your family bank, but it becomes the investment arm of your overall business structure. Russell: Very cool. And they can use that to invest in all sorts of stuff like you said, from real estate, they can do it in Bitcoin, they could do it in a new business opportunity. They could do it in Funnel Hacking Live. They could do it in some secrets books. They could buy one funnel away challenge. They could buy all my products, my service, I’m sure that’s be the best thing they could invest in. Ross: Well, yeah, you've got a good track record there. Russell: The Inner Circle, if I ever open it up again, Two Comma Club Coaching Program. Anyway, I don't know if that's legal advice or I don't know if that's investment advice, you have to ask your legal authorities, but anyway there's a lot of things, obviously, you can use start investing money in to start growing your wealth portfolio over time. Ross: Right? Your family wealth. So it's a very wonderful entity type that can protect you and give you that confidence in that feeling of safety, knowing that your personal assets are also protected, not just your business assets through your LLC or your S Corp or whatever, not only are those protected, but also your personal assets are protected. And that's a great position to be in. And knowing that even if I slip up, accidentally, people can't get to those assets. So, anyway, it's a great way to take care of your personal assets. Russell: It makes you sleep better at night. I think that's one the biggest things I found over the last five or six years is just the more ways we protect ourselves, the easier it is to sleep at night knowing you can keep moving forward and keep fulfilling your mission and doing what you're called to do. So, all right. So my question for you next, and then we'll kind of wrap after this is for those who are listening to this, that's awesome. I need that. Or maybe they even like step back and they're like, "I don't even have my business structure, yet", so kind of both sides. If you're like, I'm a new entrepreneur, I don't have a business yet. Or if like I got my business stuff structured, I think that's correct, but I’d like someone to look at it, or number three is like, I want to do this piece of it. I need to get my personal assets protected as well, which I think a lot of people haven't done that step yet. Obviously, this podcast isn't about giving legal advice, but I noticed something that you do for a lot of people, a lot of people in our community, if someone wants to have your help getting any of these things kind of set up, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Ross: Well, a lot of people will find us by going to our website, which is www.bookease.com. So, that's B-O-O-K-E-A-S-E bookease.com. And on there, you'll see a picture of me. You can click on that and it'll be able to take you to my calendar. And you could then schedule a time on our calendar for us to speak. Or my email address is very easy. It's just Ross@bookease.com. So you can email me and say, "Hey, I'd like to talk with you". I will then send you a link to my calendar and we will then set up a time to talk with each other. So, either my email address, or bookease.com, the website address. Russell: Again that's B-O-O-K-E-A-S-E.com. And I want to say something, I want to say two things. Number one is I don't get anything for telling you about this other than my dad's awesome. And he's helped so many people in our community, so I don't get paid for this. But number two is my dad always undercharges on everything. I keep trying to get him to triple his prices. So just there's not someone who's going to do a better job with this for you, and honestly, at a cheaper price. So someday I'm going to convince him to charge what he's worth. And then none of you guys were able to afford him, but just kidding. But like, in all honesty, like everyone always inside of the Two Comma Club Coaching Program everyone in module one, they go get their business set up with my dad and they always come back like "He explained all this stuff to me I never understood before. And it was so inexpensive!" So it's like, yeah. So it's amazing what he does. And it'll help you guys get, again, your limited family partnership set up if you're looking for that. Or, again, if you're getting your business just started and you need that stuff set up as well. You also, if they don't have bookkeeping and there's a whole bunch of things, you can help them kind of get set up in their business, which are all good. Ross: Yes. Yep. We'd love to chat with you. And I'm the one you'd be talking to. I like to spend a good hour with each new customer and we talk about the strengths and weaknesses of entity types which one is best for them under their certain circumstances. And so we pretty much tailor make our programs for each individual. Russell: Yeah. So, take advantage of that you guys. It's an amazing service and yeah. Go to bookease.com and get started. So, dad, that said, thanks for hanging out tonight with me because that was fun, but second of all, thanks for sharing this piece of, I think, as we were talking about before we started recording, there's just so many entrepreneurs who haven't even thought about this, and usually when you think about this is when it's too late. And so it's good to kind of get this in the forefront of people's minds and help them to be aware of it and get it structured and set up, because not that hard to get it structured. And then you have it as protection makes you sleep better at night and someday when you need it, you've got it. Ross: That's right. You want it set up before the lawsuit hits. Russell: If you get in a wreck, don't call my dad up like, "Help, quick." Yeah, now is the time. That's awesome. Thanks dad. Thanks everybody. If you guys got value from this episode, please take a screenshot of it post on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you do your social stuff and tag me in it. And also all your other entrepreneur friends who are just like me and you who are chasing all the shiny objects, building businesses, and even thinking about how to protect ourselves. Let them know about this episode, so they can know about limited family partnerships. They can know about my dad. He can help them out as well and get your stuff set up and protected. And that way you can just worry about really doing what's most important in your business, which is serving your audience. But getting these things set up will make you sleep better at night and help protect you longterm. So, thank you, dad. Thank you everyone for listening and I will see you guys on the next episode of the marketing secrets podcast. Ross: Yes. Thank you. Appreciate the chance to be with you today. Russell: Go to bookease.com. Let's go! See you guys.

Here is the exciting final part of this special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk quite a bit about the new book Russell is currently working on! The new book will be the first (of possibly many) personal development book that Russell has written. We also get to hear why Russell loves to write books and why he thinks everyone should write one. So listen in to the final part of Russell and Josh’s “Outwitting The Devil” interview. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the third and final episode from the Outwitting The Devil interview with Josh Forti. Hopefully you enjoyed the first two episodes. If you missed any of them, go back and listen to episode one, two and this is part three of three. In this one, Josh started asking me questions about my new books. Why I was so excited about Outwitting The Devil, by how I'm using this? Why I'm writing my fourth book and a bunch of other really cool things. So I hope you enjoy it. And you've enjoyed this interview series, please let me know, let Josh know. The best way to do that is take a picture of any of these on your phone, post them on your social media and tag me and him and let us know what you thought about the episodes. Thanks again, you guys. I appreciate you all for listening with that said, let's queue up the exciting conclusion of the Josh Forti, Russell Brunson Outwitting The Devil Podcast interview. Josh Forti: Okay. I want to do this because we're talking about all these amazing books and I don't know, this is probably like two, three weeks ago. Maybe it's a little bit longer that. You start hinting on Instagram about this book. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh. There's another book? What could it possibly be?" And then last week I'm out here and you started telling me about it and what it is. Russell: Showing you the deal. Josh: It's not a marketing book. It's the next piece and it's your first ever... And I don't want to spoil it for them. I'm going to say it's like your first ever take at personal development. Talk to us about this book. When's it coming out? How did this come about and the details of that, because I'm super, super excited for it. Russell: I think it was my only, hopefully. But I said that about Dot Com Secrets too. Josh: I don't believe that at all. There's going to be a trilogy for... Russell you're going to be writing books till you die dude. Russell: I don't know. Writing is so painful but this one, again, it's me coming back. We launched Traffic Secrets. The world goes chaotic and I have more time and I'm trying to just occupy my mind. Josh: Which by the way, how perfect time. My heart was completely broken when you had to cancel the Traffic Secrets event because I was supposed to speak to there. I was like, "No." But how perfect of a timing was Traffic Secrets when- Russell: There are pros and cons of it. It was really good from a selling book standpoint. It was really hard for making New York times bestseller list, which we actually hit, which I'm still freaked out about. It was tough because Amazon wasn't shipping books. Things weren't shipped, all sorts of chaos. They said books weren't essential and so like it was hard to hit lists because you'd sell 10,000 copies of books in a week but Amazon was waiting two, three, four weeks to ship them because it wasn't... The way that the lists work is, how many did you sell in retail outlets? How many do you sell on USA today? All the things. And so when you have the big push, but then some books aren't being counted four or five weeks later because Amazon doesn't consider them essential. They're not sure when they can glut. Normally it takes 10,000 books or something to hit a bestseller list. We hit over 100,000 to be able to do it. It was way harder, way more stressful, but we got it. But it was easier to sell because I had more time. Anyway, a lot of pros with that. Plus it was crazy because in the beginning of the book I talked about there's a storm coming and then literally it was like, we're in the middle it. You should give this book right now... Josh: Literally right now. Russell: I think I'm similar to you. I think a lot of people in our community where it's just like, my mind is always spinning. I can't stop. Josh: I cannot shut it off ever. Russell: It's like there's got to be something I got to be thinking about. And again, it was harder me to find stuff for me to geek out on inside of marketing and business. It was just hard to find the next... I don't know. Every level you get to, it's harder to find the next level. I'm sure there's time where Michael Jordan's like, "I can't find people to push me anymore." Where do you go? And it's just like- Josh: Yeah. Like Tom Brady in the NFL just completely dominating every team that's out there. Yeah. That's right. Russell: Anyway. So not that I'm that level or anything. Josh: Right. Right. Right. Russell: For me it gets harder and harder- Josh: Likewise. Russell: To find things. I have to dig so hard to find the gold. And so I started just looking again at some of these things. And that's when I stumble on this book and just like, every page is gold and it's like I'm lit up again. I'm on fire. Again, I talked about earlier, for me one of my highest values is ROI. What's my return on my investment. So I'm learning these things. I'm growing myself personally, but I'm feeling empty because I'm not sharing them. So it's like, "What's the platform?" That's why I'm like, "Everyone go read this." I need to have this conversation with somebody. So having Dave reading it, everybody can get to read it I'm trying to read so I can get this conversations. Then when you're like, "Hey, do you want to talk about a podcast?" I said, "Yes." You forged some of this stuff because it's in me and if I can't contribute, it seems like I'm wasting it. And so there was this, there was other things. And I started looking more and more. Right now I've got five kids. Three of my kids are teenagers now and teenagers have been way harder than I ever thought or expected. It's weird. Kids are really fulfilling, but man teenagers have been just... It's different for me. I'm feeling like I have to grow to understand myself, but to also understand them. And what I envisioned my kids as teenagers are going to be what it is, has been so much different. I think for me, at times it got me depression, sadness and these things. And I was like, "I shouldn't be depressed this time in my kid's life. This is the greatest time I could be with them but I got to shift my mind." So it was me trying to do some work on myself, to fix myself. Not fix myself, but to get myself in a spot where I could enjoy the season. And then number two is how do I serve them now at this point? Because I envisioned the way I was going to serve my kids was when my dad did. Where I was like, he drove me to wrestling practice and we traveled the world, we worked out super hard because that's what I needed and I assumed that that's what my kids are going to need and it's not. That's not what they want. They want almost the opposite of those things. I'm like, "But I have these gifts. These skills I can give you." They are like, "I don't want them." I'm like, "I can help you start a business." Like, "We don't care." I get them value money because they've always had it. It's like all these things. Every gift that I have, it's like all my unique abilities I want to give my kids, they don't want it. So I'm learning this thing of well, instead of me trying to give my kids these things that I think that were so valuable to me. It's like, I have to sit back and understand what's actually valuable to them, which is so much harder and I'm learning this process. And so as I'm going through this lens of trying to learn these things, understand them, trying to figure them out for myself and I'm stumbling upon things like this and other things. It just got to a point where I was like, "I need to write this book first off for myself." If anyone who's done it, there's this weird thing as you start reading, you start seeing connections. You don't see any other spot. I feel like God opens up insights to you. They're just magical. Like I remember- Josh: When you start writing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah 100%. Russell: You have to get deep in a topic, you have studied all these things to figure things out. And I remember the first time I really understood this is, after I finished Traffic Secrets, I wanted to reedit DotCom and an Expert Secrets to publish the trilogy. So I went back. I remember reading those books and I was like, "Where did this stuff come from?" I was like, "This is good crap. I don't remember saying this or thinking that." I couldn't remember and- Josh: Interesting. Russell: It's the weirdest thing going back and fighting things. Somehow that was given to me because that was not something that I just intuitively knew. And I feel like for me, I wanted to start the book journey because I'm searching for these answers. The premise of the book is not, "I have all the answers, let me give them to you." I'm in the season where I'm going through it again and let me share through I'm learning on this journey because I'm learning some amazing things. And as I'm sharing as I'm writing them, again these insights keep popping in and it's fascinating. So I'll be doing something, I'll be doing something and I have a doodle. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I run to Dave I'm like, "Look at this." He's like, "What am I explaining?" He's like, "I never saw it before." New to that. It showed up when I'm in this intense time. And so it's been fun as I'm writing it because these insights are coming at a speed that they don't normally come in. Josh: And I think also- Russell: It's really funny. Josh: I think... Hold that train of thought. I want you to keep going on that. But I've noticed that as well, when it comes to reading books. Reading a book and then applying the book, those are two very different things. I have read Expert Secrets, Dotcom Secrets, Traffic Secrets. And I'm going through, I've not read the hardcover of Expert Secrets. I've only read the soft cover. So right now I'm going through and yes, two nights ago I started it and it's- Russell: You started the hardcover? Josh: Yeah. I'm going through, I'm listening to it and I'm reading it and I'm taking notes- Russell: Get the hardcovers. They're way better than softcovers. Josh: So I'm going through all this stuff. For the last four or five, six months, all I've been doing, I have no front end products of my own. I'm not building anything. All I'm doing is working with big campaigns on the backend. It's like full out stuff. We're doing stuff with cash phones. All these stuff is up and I'm going through and actually inboxed you. I was like, "Dude. People say they've read this book but they haven't." They've read the words, but it's totally different when you actually experience it. And you're watching where it all fits in and you start to see how it all clicks together. So that broke from the reverse angle of when you're writing it and trying to put it on in together is what you're talking about here. Russell: Yes. It's super fascinating. So it's been fun. I'm excited. So my goal, I'm trying to get it done by summer for it to be a launch in March. So if you published traditionally, this publishing schedule is really, really long. So if you are going to read it in March, I'd have to have it done by June. Josh: If we want to read in March of next year, you have to have it done by June this year. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Dang. Russell: So that's where I'm at. So I'm also with the first section of the book and there's four sections. Back then this month I spent the section number one and then that's where I'm at. Josh: Do we get to know what it's called? Do you have a title yet? Russell: I do. I don't want to show a title yet because I don't want someone going and- Josh: Oh, that's true. Russell: "You guys all suck." And buys those domains up and they start like SEOing me and beating me and all that stuff. But it's going to be cool. It's a study of two things. So I'll give you this part. This is the subtitle. So subtitle, something Tony Robbins talks a lot about, but it's the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. These two things. How do achievers achieve? And then how do you actually get fulfilled? Because it's fascinating. I think- Josh: Interesting. Russell: I see my own life. I achieve something thinking that, "When I achieve this thing, I'm going to be fulfilled and happy and everything." And you achieve the thing and you're like, "I'm not happy." And you figure that achievement and fulfillment, they don't work hand in hand. It's a science of achievement, which that's why science achieves more scrutiny. It's like, "Here's a step-by-step process to get this result." I want to be state champion wrestler here's a step by step process. Boom, got it. I want to be a known American step-by-step process. Got it. I want to start a business, step-by-step. Science. It's not thinking, you just follow a process and you get it. So for me, achievements always come easy. Anything I ever want in my life I've achieved it because there's a science. I figured out. Fulfillment's art, it's different. It's not follow these steps and you become fulfilled. The yin yang of these two things. And it's so fascinating. I've been going deeper into it and seeing the pattern appear over and over and over again, all these different things. And how do you apply it to your life? And there's so many cool things in this book that don't necessarily talk about science of achievement and fulfillment but they're all in here. The patterns in here over and over and over again. So it's pulling it from all these sources and showing it to everybody, that's what the book's going to do and then how to weave it all into aspects of your life anyway. So that's- Josh: One of the things and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but will be the balance of those two things. Because it's early on in my very young career of being 27 years old, but it was all about achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. And there's always my mom's voice in the back of my head, it's like, "Things won't make you happy." "I know mom." Russell: Yes they will. Josh: Yeah. Yes they will. And then you get there. There have been moments in my life where right now in this moment I am completely fulfilled or I'm completely content and it's just like, I don't know what could make my life better. And it's not when I achieved anything, it's not when I did anything. But in that moment, whenever I take a step back and think about that moment, I have very little drive to go achieve anything more. And there's that balance of how do I stay fulfilled and content while also being driven to go achieve. Because for me and this is something I'd wrestled with and talked to Katie about it. And I'm like, "It's either one or the other. I can't be..." And she's like, "There's always another option. There's never black and white." And so balancing the two of those and understanding that. Like you said, they don't go hand in hand. They're separate things, I think it's really important and something that I'm trying to figure out and learn. Russell: So I got frustrated about all the times I achieve something and I'm so frustrated, why do I not feel how I thought I was going to feel and leads to depression or frustration or whatever. But when you start separating these are two different things I can achieve and I want to achieve, but how do I get fulfilled in the journey or separately from it and you start anyway. It's been fascinating and learning so many cool things and it's going to be fun to start sharing with everybody. I'm going to probably start in my podcasts, start dropping more and more things then getting deeper and deeper. More of the thoughts are going be flushed out. That's the weird thing about writing a book too, is initially I'm like, "Here's what I'm going to write." I write an outline of what the book is going to be and I write chapter number one. I was like, "Now this outline makes sense. You write that one" Chapter two. And so it's like, it's this rebuild, rebuild, rebuild. And by the time it's done, hopefully we'll find out. It'll be the perfect thing that's like, here's the frameworks you need. And for example, this whole concept here, there's a chapter that's going to be taking the frameworks from this book and this is going to be the chapter walking people through this concept of faith and fear. This doodle is a rough draft. I just tell you I sent this to you today. I'm like, "This is not the perfect doodle. I saw it. I'm not going to post it down below yet because this is partially done." It's going to be perfect by the time the book's done. I'm still thinking through and trying to get it right. And making it a simple form where I can understand it and hopefully it makes it easy for people to apply. But anyway, it's pretty cool. I think everyone should read a book. I think everybody listening should set that as a goal because when you do, just the act of writing the book will change your board. And I think anyone will understand. And when somebody asks, "What are you doing?" You're like, "I'm writing a book." Josh: That sounds very cool. Russell: There's no much cooler than that. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay. I know you have a hard cutoff, so I want to be respectful of that here. So I want to end with one question here and that is specifically about reading books. It's interesting. I'm pretty involved in the ClickFunnels world. Those are my people as well too. And so those are the people that follow me and that I interact with and I talk to a lot and it's always interesting when I talk to people about reading versus action. And some people have this... I feel like there's weird thought that if you're a reader, you're not an action taker, which I'm like, "That's not true. That's not how that works." But anyway, for you, if you are early on in your career, early on in you journey of building your business and your funnels and putting everything together. Do you recommend? Going back and thinking of your life, were you a big reader early on? Did you do a lot of reading or were you more action taking and looking back, would you recommend people read more, take more action? What's that balance? Because it's very easy. I know for me, I'm making time to read and then that's all I want to do. I'm like, "This is amazing." And then I'll take action. And so what's that Balance there? And what do you recommend as far as reading versus action? Russell: It's tough because some people read just because you get fulfillment or like there's- Josh: There's a good feeling that comes with reading. Russell: Comes with reading. Josh: For sure. Russell: So- Josh: It's a fake sense of accomplishment. Russell: Yes. So this is my belief. I remember when I first got started, I was reading a lot, I was listening, I was going to seminars. I remember at first it always frustrated because I was learning all this stuff and I was getting it but I had nowhere to use it and I was trying to use it all. That's why I think I launched... I can't remember. A couple of funnels by measure. It was like a 106, 116 or something funnels I launched before ClickFunnels. And that's because every idea that came to me, I was like, "I have to create something." I create this and I create this. I was creating funnel and funnel and coaching program. I joined Dan Kennedy's mastermind and they talked about, "You should have mastermind groups." So at the event I launched a mastermind group. I'm like, "You should have phone sales." We started phone sales and "You should be doing seminars." We launched a seminar. Every idea that came, I launched it. But man, I got a point where I was drowning. Because we had 8,000 things we're doing and nothing really worked. And I remember always feeling guilty because these ideas are coming to me. I'm thinking, "These are gifts from God. These are inspiration. I need to have these things." And it wasn't until... I don't remember when. But somewhere down the line, I realized that, "I don't actually have to take all these different things and do them, but I can understand them." Because I enjoy learning, understanding. So I would take them into my mind and literally put them on a shelf. I remember there's this Dan Kennedy on how to do high ticket, air exclusive program. So when we were listening to it, there's talking about franchise and this. All of a sudden, this is amazing. So I was taking it because I enjoyed the learning of it. And then I was like, "I'm not doing this right now." I'm so stretched thin, but I enjoyed the learning. So I'm flying an airplane, listening to this audio book or whatever. If I'm going to put it over here, I'm just categorizing and I put it over here in my brain. Like, "Hey. If I ever wanted to go back and do that, I know where it's at or at least put over here." So I started learning because I enjoyed learning but I didn't have to implement everything. And I've put things in these different spots. At the same time I had a very clear vision. This is definitive purpose. I had a vision. So I'm trying to execute on something I'm trying to do. So as I'm learning, when something came that crossed my mind I was like, "That's the next step. I could grab it and plug it in and I could use it." If it didn't. I'm like, "That's awesome. Put it right here. Someday I'm going to use that in future." And I talked to… James Friel and I talked about because he has a Trello board. He calls his shiny penny Trello board where anytime you have a great idea- Josh: Yeah. I have one of those. Russell: Instead of trying to implement, he puts it on his Trello boards. Keeps your ideas. I think for most entrepreneurs, every idea is like your baby, like "This is the greatest idea of all time." Josh: Yeah. I have a Trello board called Josh's brain. Russell: Oh awesome. This pre Trello because I remember getting a note card. I had three by five note cards and when I had the ideas, I put them in there, I put them there. And somebody I'm going to come back to this and I get ideas and put them there. I kept putting them there either in a note card or somewhere else. And it's crazy. And I fast forward. Man, I think it's 19 or 20 years, I'm doing this now. So whatever it is. Almost two decades. And it's really cool because when I coach people now and this is my inner circle so I have people in here I'm coaching and someone would appear on stage and they're stuck with a problem and they're frustrated. They're like, "I don't want to do this thing." And all of a sudden out of the back of my mind pops up this thing and it comes into my- Josh: Exactly. Russell: I have this thing. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Where did that come from?" It's because I learned it. Because I read this book here, I saw this thing over here and all these things. And so I think a lot of times we have to understand that learning is fun. So enjoy it. Don't be like, "I'm not going to read because..." Reading is awesome. Read, learn, do those things, but also understand, what is your mission? Stephen Larson talked about this two funnel hiking lives ago. He called it just-in-time learning. It seems like if you are going to read the book you need... I agree with that except for this is a better pastime than watching movies. So let's read, let's study. But having your path, this is my goal, this is where I'm going to go. If you join my coaching program, we're going to talk about what's the first funnel. That's what we focus on. Don't do anything else, just focus on that. You can learn other things, but categorize them or wait until you're ready. And then as you get pieces right. I need that, I need that and figure out the next steps. I think that's how I would do the yin yang of both of those. Because I'm the same way. I'm learning so many things or study things or I find things are awesome that I'm not going to use but someday there'll be someone I come upon that that nugget is going to be the thing that unlocks something for them and they're going to super grateful. So, anyway. Josh: All right. Well man, thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. This is so much fun. We could talk for hours, but we do have to wrap it up there. We've got a little something to get to, so thank you man. I appreciate it. Russell: No worries. And hopefully all you guys, two things I want to say. Number one, I'd highly recommend reading this book and read through the lens of this. The first time I didn't know where I was going. So I was all over the place and just freaking out. But look at the lens of Faith and Fear of, I don't want to be a drifter. I want to be somebody spiritually, mentally, and physically free. Look at that and start looking at everything he talks about from this lens and just look at it as protections of you that will be there to get to the spot where you're learn 2% or how to keep yourself from becoming a drifter or if you are drifter shift yourself back. And looking at this, because it's this guide book of all the ways that the devil uses to shift you around. And when you're aware of it, man, it makes it so much more powerful. Josh: And- Russell: This is huge. Josh: The thing that I would say we didn't have time to get to it, but I would say too is understand that it's not... If you're religious, understand that there's probably going to be some things that the devil is like, "You don't need God, you don't need me." Some of the things that are going to be in there, like Russell said, 97% is good, 3% is bad. Don't let that prevent you from understanding the value and the power that's in this book because there is so much good stuff in this. And any single time that I've ever had success at anything when I look back, it follows very closely to the principles that were taught here, so anyway. Russell: That's awesome. And then wait until next March to buy my book. Josh: And I will be the number one affiliate. So hopefully you all can be number two, three, four. That's cool. That's going to be super, super cool. So Russell, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Love to do it again for The Book of Mormon or something like that and all right. All right guys, that's it. Russell: Thanks everyone. Josh: As always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different because those of us who think different are going to be the ones who change the world. I love you all. See you soon. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: See you.

Welcome to the second part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk about their biggest “take-aways” from the book. Russell talks about a difficult time when Clickfunnels was down and instead of choosing fear and running from the problem, he chose to have faith in his business and fight to make it better. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed the first part of my interview with Josh Forti, on Outwitting the Devil. This episode, I'm excited, because we're going to go a little bit deeper. We're going to start talking about some of my stories, and practical applications of how I was able to use this in my past. This story I tell, I wasn't expecting to tell this. I didn't know where he was going to go with the interview questions. We got a little emotional, but I think it was good. So I'm excited to share it with you. I'm a little nervous, but a little excited at the same time. So with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. When we come back you can listen to episode number two, from the Josh Forti interview, about Outwitting the Devil. Josh Forti: I had a very definitive takeaway from the book. You could read a million times, and keep getting gold nuggets, but what was the thing that stuck out to you, that was the most powerful of it? That caused you to literally go on Instagram, be like, "Yo, everybody read this book right now." Russell: Everyone's in different spots, so I think it's good to read this book for everyone to kind of see where you fit. Anyway, maybe I have a distorted view of myself, but I feel like I'm somebody who acts in definitive purpose. I feel like I act in faith, most of the times. So, I feel like I'm on the side. So the thing that was so powerful for me, if you look in the middle of my thing, there's two columns here, was he started saying, he asked, he's like, "When someone uses definitive purpose, does that mean they're free from you?" He's like, "No." He's like, "As soon as they're using definitive purpose." And he's like, "These are the tools I use to try to get them to become drifters." And I started looking at the list of things he uses to get them to become drifters. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I see those patterns in my life. I see the things that are pulling me to that side as well." And it became this warning for me of like, "Okay, these are the things to protect yourself from." Because, we're not free, it's not like, I do good things therefore I'm to be good forever. It's like, no, the entire time he's trying to get you to the other side. And so for me, it was interesting. You can see some of these ones I list up here, like the temptations he uses to get someone who is free, to become a drifter. So number one, was flattery. And it was interesting, he said that the way he uses flattery, is in women, he uses vanity, and in men, he uses egotism. And I've seen that so many times in my own personal life, where with your ego and you start reading your own bio, you drink your own Kool-Aid, and you're like, "I'm amazing." And as soon as you do that, it starts shifting you from this state of freedom, to drifters. And I've seen... I've got personal friends who have let ego destroy their families, destroy their businesses, destroy their lives. And I always have fear of that, and I see myself slipping into that often. It's definitely a temptation, it's one of the things for me, that pulls me in, I'm trying to be careful of. It's funny, people always tell me, like, "I feel like you're one of the few guys in the industry that doesn't have a big ego." I'm like, "I have a huge ego." I try to be aware of it. I'm grateful for my wife. One of my buddies told me, he's like, "It wasn't for Colette." He's like, "You'd have the biggest head in the world." She's the one that keeps me focused. Josh: I feel like that's Leo with me too, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Russell: But I think it was interesting for man, for egotism, and women, he said vanity, which is interesting too. So those are two things there. Next was failure, and he talked about failure from both sides. He said that failure can be something that actually serves you, because you fail, you see what's wrong and you read adjust, but some people go through failure, and then they slip to like, "Okay, this didn't work," and they're out. And you see that a lot. Josh: Well, and that's even here, it's learning from adversity. That's one of the key things, how do you use failure? If you're going to be a drifter, you're going to be like, "Failure. Ew yuck. I'm never going to do it again." versus a successful person. Russell: You see people all the time that fail, are like, "Oh, I tried the thing, and it didn't actually work." It's like, "Okay. It worked for 800 other people, but it didn't work for you. Maybe it was you, maybe the approach was..." It's so interesting where it's like, if... It comes back to, if you've read Jocko's book. Josh: What's Jocko's book? Extreme Ownership. Yeah. Russell: That's the thing, the failure happens, and it's like, "Oh, I going to blame it on them." Boom. Instantly you're a drifter. But if you're like, "It was me, I did it wrong. What am I going to change?" The extreme ownership, that's the shift from failure. Whereas you take extreme ownership, boom, you're staying over here, but, if you don't... And I have a problem all the time. I think something that's happened to my team, or whatever, and I want to point the finger, and it's like, "But I'm the leader of the team." But it's so much easier to point out, than point back in. And so for me, that was the one. Again, another one I noticed, when I had my failures, did I point out or in? Because if I point out, I'm slipping into drifting. Propaganda, bribes, food, sex, all these different things he was using. The food one was interesting, he was talking about, he's like, "When men and women become rich, and they have all these things, I get them through food, when they start eating and get gluttonous. And all of sudden their body gets not healthy, and then it's harder to move." And I'm sure you felt that, when you're not eating healthy, your mind gets cloudy, and all these things, it's very easy to become a drifter. And so, it's just all these tools he's using to try to get you to shift from one another. Those things were... In my time in my life right now, where I was just like, "Okay, cool. I've got walls, I can start protecting myself up. I can become more aware of it." When you're aware of something, it's so much easier to fight it, as opposed to when… Josh: Yeah. And when you're successful too, everything's convenient. And that's one of the things that he brought up in the book too. I noticed in my life, I was thinking back to when I first started, I was like, "Man, I was sleeping on my buddy's couch." For three months, and I worked my butt off, and everything like that. I'm like, "Why do I lack that drive sometimes?" Like, "Why don't I have that anymore?" It's like, "Because life is convenient." Because if I sleep until eight o'clock, or if I don't perform today, my life doesn't change at all. But back then, it did. And so when things become convenient, it's super easy to come back into that drifter mode. Russell: Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's one of the hardest thing. I think, at least for me, when I was growing up, I always thought there's a point where you made it. In fact, I remember this one time, my business was doing well at the time, we had a bunch of employees. I remember hiring this guy to come consult me on something, and he came out, and he's looking at all this stuff. And he's like, "So tell me, when was he felt like... When did you know you made it?" And I was like, "Oh, I..." I'm still freaking out. I don't feel like I made it. And I think, in my life, I always thought there's going to be a point where I'm like, "I made it, or figured the thing out." Or whatever, but I never got there. I feel like the second I do, that's when it's going to start... That's the thing. And so, I think being more aware of that, just like, this is a constant thing and that's okay, but, it's a constant between God and Satan, there's this constant... Every moment is like, each of them are fighting for. It's like, if you give up here, then you slip back over to there. You can't just... There's no neutral ground. Josh: So, I just want to talk about that, because I think one of the biggest... Well, the number one thing, like you said, of a non drifter, is the definitive purpose. And I have noticed that in my life, even recently... Over the past year, year and a half, I've been working with Katie Richardson, you know that, just really getting clear on what the next steps of things are. And my definitive purpose, if you will, when I first started my entrepreneurship journey, was this, "I just don't want to be poor anymore." I go like, "My definitive purpose is to not worry about money, and to get out of debt, and just be free. Then be able to make decisions or whatever." And then I got there, and then there was this next definitive purpose. And they were incremental, almost goals, but not like this overwhelming definitive purpose. And so, going through the process of that, of course, with my brother dying, and that whole shattering of everything. Like for you, you've built ClickFunnels, you have a wildly successful company and people look up to you, and are like, "Oh my gosh, Russell, you're on top of the world. You're amazing. You've made it." At now, you've just said, "Hey, I don't feel like I've made it yet. I still feel like I have a long way to go." How do you... A, has your purpose changed since you started, compared to where you're at now? And B, how do you continue to remind yourself of that purpose? Or how do you find that purpose? When you could do nothing for the rest of your life, and be totally fine. How do you find purpose in that? Russell: I'd be a drifter at that point. Josh: Right, you wouldn't be a drifter. I can just see Russell sitting on the beach. No, actually, I can't even imagine what that would look like, for Russell on the beach for long periods of time. But, what would that look like for you? Or, how do you find that purpose? Russell: So, you asked about if my purpose has changed. So I would say, in my mind, it's two things. There's the people that I've been called to serve has not changed, I feel like I've been called to serve entrepreneurs. Those are my people, those are the people that I'm here... And so for me, it's like, what are all the ways I can help them? So, initially it was like, "Do seminars, write books." That was the first thing, and then it's like, "Oh, we're going to build software." And then it's like, "Oh, we're doing events." And, we kept adding these things on. And so, that was the thing. And so my purpose was like, what are all the things I can do to help an entrepreneur to be more successful? That's my vision. That's my mission. That's my thing. And I feel like now that, again, after I finished the three books, I was like, I feel like that, again, that the trilogy, that's what people need. And then we have Funnel Hacking Live, that's amazing. We have these things in place, all the things there are... they're there. And I think there's things, where there's big updates, we have to company click funnels. There're other things we do to make things better, but for me, it's like, there's not a lot more, again, it's not like I'm going to come out with some magic funnel, I'm like, "God, it changes everything again." Like, it's there. Right? So for me, it's like, "Okay, I'm still called to serve these people. What's the next level of success? What's the next thing I need to do?" And for me, I started looking, like what were the things that I struggled with? And so much of it was not... It was like, I didn't have the tools, I didn't have the information, which is why the last two decades has been focused on that. But, the next thing was like, I had to become someone different, who did I have to become to be successful? I look at so many entrepreneurs who are coming into my world, these people that I'm called to serve, and giving them funnels. Man, they don't believe in themselves, they have horrible identities. They're choosing fear over faith, every single time, and they're not having success. And so, for me, it's like, "Hey, I still have the same people." So-called same.. served the same people. But, what am I... What's the next thing I need to help them with? And if you just look at my book trilogy, the first one was dotcom secrets. It's like, "They need to understand funnels." That was the book. And it was like, "Hey, now I understand funnels." And now everyone's like, "I'm building funnels." But then their funnels weren't working, they weren't converting. And I'm like, "Oh, they don't know how to tell stories, right copy, or..." So, Expert Secrets, I'm like, "Expert Secrets." It's like, "Okay, now they understand that." And I thought I was done. And then I'm like, "Okay. Some people have these funnels that have really good copy, but Facebook shut down their account and they're screwed, or they have no traffic, or whatever." And I'm like, "Oh, my people in the traffic." So, I'm getting traffic, and that was Traffic Secrets book. And so for me, the last year, year and a half, especially, as you know, we've been in this insane environment of insanity… Josh: How do you even describe it? Russell: And I'm watching these people I've been called to serve, melting down, choosing fear in every single direction, over, and over, and over, and over again. I'm seen people who don't have an identity, they don't have beliefs, they don't have rules, they don't have values. And I have all these things they need to actually have the structure, to implement. It is what we talked about. And that's why I started geeking back to this personal moments, and partially because it's for myself, because I'm trying to protect myself and strengthen myself. But for me, Hill doesn't really go deep on anything. If you look at my disc profile, one of my things is I have very, very high... my highest value is ROI. If I don't see return on investment on something, I can't do. That's why I struggled in school, that's why I struggled with so many things. That's why when I started trying to read scriptures again, I struggled with it, until I started a podcast, because now there's return on my investment. I'm going to learn this thing, but I'm going to give it to somebody else. And there's my return on investment, now I can do it, and I feel fulfilled by it. Josh: Which by the way, I'm going to plug, podcast number three is going to be about that. Russell: And the same thing here. So, I started going back through, started reading these things. And for a while it was tough, because I'm reading these things, and for me it's like, what's the return on investment? It's good for me, but, ah, I've been called to serve. It's not just... Again, I talk about this in the new book, we'll talk about it a minute. But in Expert Secrets I talk about growth and contribution. I love growth, because good for me, but I thrive on the contribution. It's me sharing that gets me excited. So I was going through these things, and that's when, probably three or four months ago, is when I was like, "Hey, I'm learning all these principles, these things, I'm doodling all this stuff." I need to have something I'm putting it towards, or else I'm not going to be able to continue the momentum I need to keep doing this, and keep figuring out these things. And so, that's why I started, as you know, on my fourth book, which is not a marketing book. Josh: Yeah. I want to talk about that. Okay. I really do want to go there. However, there's one question I want to ask you first, I want to pull back another layer of Russell, that people... I don't know. Maybe, you've told this story before. I don't know. I don't even know what the story is, I'm about to ask you. So, my number one takeaway from the book, was how much fear controls people. That was my number one thing. And, for me, and this has come through a tremendous amount of mental work, and tremendous amount of personal identity work, over the course of the past 12 to 16 months, of just tears and just facing my own fears and insecurities, and bringing them to light and working through. But, there's not a whole lot of things I'm afraid of. There're very few things where I'm looking at them, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I just do me, and whatever. Like criticism, it doesn't really bother me, or whatever. But, there's certain instances that come up where I'm like, "Ooh, I'm afraid of failure in that specific scenario, for that specific thing." And I'd be curious to know, for you, as you built ClickFunnels, I'm sure there were moments of fear. And I'm sure there were moments, when this side of things started to creep in, but you worked through that. And so, I'd be curious to know, what was one of the biggest times when you were building ClickFunnels, that you were afraid? And how did you work through that? What's that story? Russell: Oh man. Josh: Because I feel like we hear the marketing version of it. Russell: The highlight reels. Josh: We do, right? And they serve a very specific purpose. And I always laugh when people want to criticize, like, "Russell only tells this part of the story, or whatever" I'm like, "Do you understand why he's doing that?" Like, "Do you understand it's fitting into... It's at Funnel Hacking Live, or it's at this, or whatever." I'm like, "There's a purpose for that." It's not like he's trying to do that, but I want to know the other side of it. I want to know the behind the scenes of, what was that moment where you're like, "This is not worth it. I'm going to shut it all down. Or I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able..." I don't know what the story is. Russell: Yeah, definitely for me, the part that was the hardest, it was the first year of ClickFunnels, we just launched it. And I remember, because when Todd built it he told me, he was like... And in my head, I thought we're going to get 10,000 members month one, that was in my head. And Todd was like, "Okay, well, just so you know, as soon it past 10,000 members, the way I coded it, it's going to have to be different." And I was like, "I don't know that means, but I'm going to get 10,000 members. Right?" So we go and launch it, we don't get 10,000 members, kind of depressed, but we started pursuing this thing, start working towards it. And within about a year we got 10,000 members. And during that time, ClickFunnels started doing weird things, where it would just go down for five minutes, and be back, like, "What just happened?" And like, "Oh, some blah, blah, blah, techie thing happened." And yeah, so they fixed it, like, "Hey, good." And then it goes down, this time it's down 15 minutes, and 15 minutes down.... It's funny, because one minute I'm everyone's hero, they're like, "We love you, Russell. You made our lives so much easier making money." I'm getting the messages, and just feeling the ego, and all the things they're just like... This is amazing. And then it goes down, and I want you to understand, when ClickFunnels would go down, it wasn't like, "Hey, man, it's down." It was like, "I want to kill you." Like, "You owe me $2,000 in ads for my 15 minute window that it's down." Like, "I'm going to sue you." Like death threats, I went from the hero of the day, to, "I want to kill you." And messages coming in are like... And I'm getting things, and Todd's not getting them, because no one knows... He's kind of behind the scenes, and I'm just like, you want to kill me? They're that angry? They want to sue me, they want all these things. And then, publicly posting everywhere, how horrible and how bad.... And the second someone slips, everyone wants to jump up and start throwing daggers at them, it's insane. I seen it happen to so many people. I have friends who I've seen it happen to recently, where it's like, everyone loves until they do something, and then it's just like everyone wants to pounce on- Josh: And half the time, it's not even their fault. Russell: It's crazy, if that's happening. And so, it's happening, we get back up, and then, "Is this is going to work good?" Like, "Yeah, fine." I'm like, "Okay. It's going to be good." So then we plan on that, and then again, it would go good for two, three weeks, then something happened, and it just kept happening. And the longer we go, more members happened, it would more often, it would happen longer. And, it was just horrible. Because I remember one time I was speaking at a Dan... GKC event. And I'm in the hotel room, we just got there, Dave and I were there, we're getting everything ready. And it goes down, we're down for like 30 minutes. I'm freaking out. I'm supposed to be on stage in 30 minutes, or like an hour or something, and it's down, and I messaging and I remember voxing Todd, I'm like, "Hey, it's down again." He messaged back all nice like, "Oh yeah." Like anyways, he was just like, he's like, "Oh yeah, it's down again. We'll work on it." So I messaged back, I was like, "This is happening a lot. Are you sure we're okay? You seem a little nice and calm, you okay?" It's funny, because Todd's super respectful, he doesn't ever swear around me or anything. And he messaged back, and I've never heard Todd scared before. And he messaged back, and he was... I won't repeat what he said, but it was just like, what he said and how he said it, was just like, we're screwed. He said it four or five times in a row, and then he ended. And I was just like- Josh: And you're about to go on stage? Russell: Yeah, and I was like… Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: And I was just freaking out. I'm like, "I'm about to go on stage, and try and convinced all this audience that I've got the greatest thing in the world. And my partner who built it, is freaking out, and doesn't know how to stabilize this thing. And he's..." I remember just being sick to my stomach, scared, all these fears, all the anxiety, all the inadequacy, all those things. And I remember I'm just freaking out, and then we got it back up, and then Dave's like, "Hey, you're on in like 10 minutes." I'm like, "Oh." So, I do my things, run downstairs and then come on stage. And I was just in my head, and my mind, and my body just freaking out. And, do the presentation, I know the presentation, even if I'm scared, it's going to come out pretty similar, it converted well, people bought it, everyone's excited. I remember afterwards, it was weird, this is one of those weird things, I don't even know who it was. If you're listening, she messaged me, some dude lingered afterwards and he's like, "Um, you okay?" I'm like, "Yeah. Fine. How's it going?" And he's like a chiropractor, but like a “woo-woo” one, were they do energy stuff. And he's like, "Can I adjust you?" And I'm like, "That's weird." He's like, "No, I don't really do normal adjusting, it's this other weird kind." And I was like, "I don't know what's happening. This guy is creeping me." But for some reason, like, "Sure. Whatever." So he takes me in this other room, he starts doing adjusting, he's doing the muscle testing, and all sorts of stuff on me, which I- Josh: Just some random dude? Russell: Yeah. I'd never had that happen before, he was attending the event, so he was there. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was weird, because he starts... He's just like, "You have all this tension here, here, all these things." And he's trying to figure out why. And so, eventually, and again, some people think that that's crazy. You think that's crazy? Nowadays, I don't know, Because- Josh: No. I don't think it's crazy. Russell: Anyway. It's interesting. But, he's doing this muscle testing, and he muscle tests, and he's like, "The thing that you're experiencing right now inside your body, is a reflection of something that happened." I can't remember, it was like 3.6 years ago, or something like that. He's like, "What happened three and a half ago?" "I have no idea." I couldn't remember. And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh my gosh, that was the last time my company collapsed." And we had to... We didn't go through bankruptcy, but had to fire almost a hundred people. We had to shut everything down. It was all this stuff. And he's like, "Your body's experiencing the same things right now, that you experienced at that moment. And that's this tension and these things." Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: It was crazy. And he did all this stuff to try to release it, and everything. But also I realized, it's like, oh my gosh. My biggest thing is, I built this thing up, people think I'm a hero again, right now. And I remember what happened three and a half years ago, when I lost everything and how much pain, and how much... All these things, the poverty I got, the criticism I got, the ill health I got, the loss of love I got, friends, family, coworkers walking out on me. I wanted to die. I'm over the edge. All my greatest fears came back in that moment, and I'm in this spot, and I don't know how to fix it, because I can't code. I go to college and learn how to code? I don't what to do. Josh: That's the worst, oh man. Russell: The next week… Josh: It's out of your hands. Russell: We're flying to London, to speak in London. They invited my family to come to me. So, my wife and kids were all flying in London, and I told parts of this story before, but we're in the air, everything's good. The kids are having so much fun, they're flying. And we land, we get to London, and there's... In your phones, the chips don't work, so you have to- Josh: Yeah. You got to swap them. Russell: So we're driving around, and finally get our chips in there, and as soon as it does, all of a sudden, my phone was just like... And I don't know what it is, so I'm looking, and there's text messages, there's instant messages, there's voxers, there's all these things, hundreds, I'm not exaggerating, people are like, "A hundred's, probably like 10." No, hundreds and hundreds on every platform, where people sending me death threats, sending me they want to kill me, send me the hate me, send me I'm screwing them over, sending me all that... just this stuff, and I'm looking at my phone, and I'm just like, "I don't even know what happen." So I'm finally trying to get Todd, I got ahold of him, and he's like, "Yeah, we're down. We've been down for four or five hours." He's like, "If we're able to get it back up." And all I remember him saying, if, and not when, and I was just like- Josh: And you're in London. Russell: With my family. Josh: About to speak. Russell: And so, I don't even know. I went back to the hotel room, and we had two hotels conjoining for the kids. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to go in this room for a minute." And I shut the door, and I'm just like, I don't know what to do. We're down. I don't know if we're getting it back up. So, to speak the next day to talk about click funnels. And it was one of the things where I was just in so much fear, I wanted to hide. I just wanted to not say anything. I just wanted to be quiet. Josh: Yeah. Especially as an introvert. Russell: Yeah. Especially and introvert who's got literally hundreds of people telling me how much they hate me. And, I don't know want to do. And this one of those moments where it's just like, the fear and the faith, I wanted to go to fear. That sounds so nice, just to hide and... But I was like, I can't, because this is my life. This is all this stuff we've worked for, for so long. And, in that moment I had impression of, you should go live on Facebook. I'm like, "I don't want to live on Facebook." They're like, "You have to. You have to tell people what's happening." I was like, "What kind of CEO, in the middle of this crash, gets online and like, Hey, our company's down." And put on the happy face, like, "It's okay, because... let me blame the servers." I had a million people I could blame, because it was... Josh: It's not your fault Russell. It's never your fault, right? Russell: So, finally, I was like, "All right." So I just, I told the kids, "I'm going to be on in 15 minutes." So I clicked go, and all of a sudden I'm live. And of course, because it's live, everybody pops in, because they're trying to figure out... Because they all want to kill me. Like, "Russell's here, this is our time." And first it popped up, you start seeing the comments, like, "You're effing killed... You killed my business." Like all these things, and just like, "You owe me, how much money." Like all these things, and I'm just like, "Okay." And instead of doing what I wanted to do, which was blame, point to other people. I was like, "I'm pissed." And I was like, "This is not okay." Like, "My business is down, your business is down. You trusted me. You trusted us. We are not doing this right. This is not acceptable." I'm not like... And I tried my best. In fact, the video's still live, it's on... If you go to my Facebook page, and go to videos and scroll down to year one of click funnels, the video's still live there. Josh: That's crazy. Russell: And, basically I just tried… Josh: Somebody go find it and post in the comments. Seriously. I'd love to see it. Russell: Yeah. And I just posted it, I can't remember if I posted in the ClickFunnels group, or maybe it was in my... Anyway, I remember I found a little while ago to look at it again, I remember watching it, I was just like, "Whoa, that sucked." But I did my best, try to take that. Definitive purposes, this is not okay, this is what we're trying to do. I'm just going to take faith. And it was crazy, because I remember we posted that, while Todd and the team was working their butts off. And luckily through so many miracles, they got everything back up. We had a backup from right, for a hit. We didn't lose anything, other than the eight hours we were down. And we expected the next day that half our members would cancel, everything's going to be gone. And it was crazy how by taking the action of faith, people came in, and instead of being upset, they're like, "You know what, thank you. Thank you for not hiding. Thank you for telling us you're upset. Thank you for understanding this is not acceptable, and not trying to be like, oh, thanks for taking responsibility. And over the next week, we didn't see any... It wasn't like, signups and cancellation, we watched those two numbers all the time, it wasn't a big drop. It was just like... It didn't change. And, after that we made changes, we figured things out, we got things solid and looking stable. And that was the last time we went down for more than a little blip here or there. But that was probably the biggest thing, and I remember just being... Anyway. Josh: That's crazy. Well, I think, that comes back to having a definitive purpose, because you had a goal, you were all in. Because, without that, you throw in the towel, and you say this isn't worth it. If you are not crystal, crystal clear, or at least very, very emotionally attached to that outcome, or to that goal of that definitive purpose of where you're at, you should shut everything down there, and you walk. That's crazy. I've never heard that story before. Russell: I'm sweating reliving it. Thanks for that. Josh: No problem. I'm sure the audience loved it though. Russell: Anyway, it was a scary, scary time in between those two things happening back to back. And like I said, and then we started working towards it, and man, Todd and Ryan, and all the people on our team who went and who figured out the problems, and solidified things, and brought in the right people. It's crazy, because people with click funnels are like, "You should know how to not go down." It's like, "You don't understand. At that point, we went from a bunch of entrepreneurs trying to make something, to like, at that point we were like the 300th most visited website in the world." And there's not many people on this planet who know how to handle the database architecture behind that. We didn't know how to do it, and so we're trying to find people. We literally hired people who, they're charging 10 grand an hour to do database administration. So, you hire them, like, "Okay, here's 20 grand. You get two hours to look." So they log in and look around, like, "Here's all the mistakes." And then they go back, and go try to fix them. Then like, "Hey, here's another 10 grand, another hour." Like that's the people who like ran eBay and Amazon. Those are people you have to hire to come and look at these problems, because they're not problems that most people deal with. And if you think about it, we tell you we have 120,000 members, that's true. That's 120,000 people's websites, most of them more than one, most of them 10, 20, 50, a hundred. There's... I don't know, quarter million, half a million websites running all on our servers. No one knows that stuff. Josh: Brad, how many do we have? How many? Brad's over here they already probably got 50, just there. No, we'll run it through. Russell: These are problems, not normal problems most people know how to solve. We don't know how to solve them. So it's like, "How do we do that?" Every level there's new level of stress and problems, and things that they keep coming up, that you just... If you don't have that definitive purpose, and that dream, and that vision, that thing, there's so many things pulling you off the path. There's a million things trying to pull you to become a drifter, from flattery, to failure, to propaganda, bribes, to... All these things are trying to do that, the world's stacked against you. In fact, according the book, 98% of people are there. Josh: Yeah 98%. That's crazy. Russell: So, first off, it comes back to, if you want to shift yourself back, the very first thing is, come back to very first questions, like, "Am I doing this decision based on faith or fear?" That's the transition point, it's not like, "Okay I got to fix all this crap. And I got to..." No, it's like, come back to the very beginning, and if you start shifting your decision making process, to like, "I'm scared." You can still be scared, you still have fear. I still have fear all the time, I'm sure you do too. I'm like, "Do I do that?" But, you don't act in fear, you act in faith. Like, "Okay, I could lose everything, I could be criticized. I could, I could, I could..." But, this is my definitive purpose, this is my vision, this is where I have to go. Therefore, I will act in faith, regardless of these things that they happen. I have to be okay with the worst case scenario. I have to be okay, that if I screw up people are going criticize me, or else I'm not going to be able to move forward in faith. And that's the conundrum. That's where you have to get thick skin, and be okay with these things. And I think for me, I've tried it, I spend time consciously thinking about each of these. Like you talked about death, you don't fear death, for me, for a big part of my life I did fear death. And there's parts of me... I'm thinking about it today, if I was to die, I wouldn't be scared of death, I'd be scared of my kids not having a dad. But, the thing, the belief that I have, and the new book goes deep into these kinds of things, that I'm real excited to share. But, my belief about death, we have to have beliefs, and values, and rules around all these kind of things. But my belief about death is, I strongly, strongly, strongly believe that none of us will live on this planet one second longer or shorter than God wants us to. I believe that to my core soul. So, because I'm okay with that... Because, it's not like all of a sudden accidentally I'm going to catch something and I'm going to die, and then God's like, "Oh crap, I missed that one." That's not going to happen. There's plans, there's purpose, there's things that are happening, and I have that as a belief. Maybe it's not true, but it's my belief. Therefore, because I believe that, I'm not scared of death. If it happens, that sucks, and be horrible for my kids, but, again, it's part of the plan, therefore I'm not afraid of death, because of that. Josh: Yeah. And I had never really even thought about death, until my brother obviously passed away. Russell: You came face to face with it… Josh: Yeah. Like, "Holy cow. Freak accident, helicopter crash, over in Kenya." It's like, "What the heck?" And, I flew around the world trying to figure out what I believe, and what I thought. And the conclusion, I don't know if it's a conclusion, but the belief that I have about death, is I'm like, "All right, when I die, that's when my life starts." I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like I'm, this is what I say? It's a whisper in the wind, like it's a flash in the pan. Life is, we're here, and we're given these choices. And God's like, "All right, here, you got your 80 or 90 years on life. And you get a choice, you can either choose to accept me, or reject me." And then eternity starts, or doesn't start, it always is. For me, I'm like, "Sweet." And coupled with, or partnered with, what you said of like, "I don't think God makes mistakes." So if I die, even if it's a dumb, stupid decision that I made that led to that, it's not like God didn't factor in my stupidity. And so, because I know that, it's confidence. Yeah.

Welcome to the first part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh start talking about the book “Outwitting The Devil” by Napoleon Hill. They discuss some of the background of how this book was published, and then go into detail about the premise and the lessons that it teaches. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. So I told you guys a couple episodes ago, I told you about one of my new favorite books, which is Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill. I told you a little bit about the book and why you should read it. I told you I was doing a podcast interview with Josh Forti where he was going to ask me a bunch of questions about the book. We did that and it was really, really fun, and so I'm going to actually... I want to stream that interview to you guys over the next three episodes here on the podcast, and it's fun. The interview went way different than I thought it was going to go, and so I think you're going to enjoy it. The first part we talked about the book and the story behind it, and the breaking down the doodle and explanation, and the difference between faith and fear, some of the basic stuff. The second episode, we start talking about my biggest takeaways from the book and why personal development is important, and then Josh start asking questions about a time in my life when I used faith over fear and stuff like that. The story that came out, most people probably haven't heard this about ClickFunnels crashing and a bunch of other stuff, and so that episode two is going to be really fun for you guys. I'm excited, and episode number three is about my next book, so that was what the interview was about. It was really fun. It was a little over an hour long, and so we decided to break it up into three episodes for you guys, and so that's the game plan. So this is episode one of The Outwitting the Devil interview with Josh Forti, one of three. So when the theme song comes back, we'll cue that up. You'll have a chance to listen to the first one. Make sure you listen to all three episodes over the next week or so because I think you're going to enjoy it. The first one is really cool because you understanding why I'm so excited about this book, the biggest takeaways, but then some practical application, episode two and then episode three, we'll talk about the new book, why, what we're talking about, and a bunch of other cool stuff. So I'm excited. With that said, we’ll queue up the theme song. When we come back we'll jump into the first part of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: What's up, everybody! Russell: We're back. We're back. Josh: We are back. Russell: Four months, we're back. Josh: We're back. We're back guys. What is up? Welcome back to another episode of Think Different Theory, I'm going to claim this one, episode of Think Different Theory. Russell: And I'll probably also use it on the Marketing Secrets podcast; we'll use it for both. Josh: That's perfect, a dual episode. Guys. We are back. We were supposed to do this last week, but Russell's- Russell: Circumstances didn't allow it. Josh: Yeah. Russell was in a bad mood. So we have to do this, but guys, welcome back today. I'm really, really excited because we are discussing- Russell: One of my new favorite books. Josh: One of your new favorite books, Outwitting the Devil, which you recommended to everybody, the whole world, what? Like three months ago, four months ago. Something like that. Russell: Yeah. I'm shocked when people read it. If you haven't yet, go buy it on Amazon. There's two versions. I got to share this real quick. He'll share that while I'll tell you guys about this. Josh: Perfect. Russell: There's two versions of it. This one's got Sharon Lechter's notes, one doesn't. I'd get the one with Sharon Lechter's notes and oh, I talk to the camera here. Hey, what's up camera. And also you get the audio book. It's awesome. Because in an audio book, you can actually hear the two voices and one voice is the devil. One's Napoleon Hill. And it's amazing. Should I tell the story about the books? Josh: Okay. So actually I want to do that. I actually want to do this because how I want to open this up is, I want to take it back. Kind of take a step back because you've built Clickfunnels and now I feel like you've gone into kind of this new stage. You start reading a bunch of books and then you like geek out on Atlas Shrugged, and then you geek out on the next thing now we're at this book. So back us up, how did you find this book? Where did it come about? And then let's dive into it because I feel like context is important. Russell: Yeah. So, man, a lot of things. So obviously those who've read any of my books. I feel like I'm done. I wrote all the marketing books, I'm out of secrets. That's it. Trilogy is done. Work is finished. It's over. Josh: Guys, we're done with Russell forever. Russell: But then for me it's like, I don't know. I think in any area of life there's a point where you get mastery and it gets harder and harder to find new things. So there's all these incremental things, but there's not a whole bunch of new stuff I can discover, like oh my gosh, ah, freak out. Josh: Right, something about marketing you've never seen before. Russell: Yeah, so it's harder. And so for me, I'm a learner. I'm always pursuing education ideas and things. And so I started just kind of re geeking out on personal development stuff just because I miss it. I'm trying to think about things in my life. And so I was going through a bunch of different things and rereading a bunch of books I read back a decade ago, like Think and Grow Rich. Which by the way, that's kind of ... This Is the first edition printed Think and Grow Rich. Russell: Josh knows I'm kind of a geek with old books. You guys will see why more in about 18 months from now. We're doing some cool things, but this is first edition Think and Grow Rich. Think and Grow Rich was written by Napoleon Hill in 1937. It's the most, outside of the Bible, it's the highest personal development book ever sold. And it's really, really good. And so I was reading that again and then people kept tell me about this other book. And there's a lot of books. Right here, this is Think and Grow Rich, this is the Laws of Success. I'm trying to acquire a first edition Laws of Success, which is, I was telling you it's insane, expensive. Josh: It's crazy expensive. But Russell's over here, geeking out on all the books. Russell: I love old books. Josh: Actually a side note on that guys, the very first time ... So this is back at, I think it was the first or second offer. I can't remember mind lab mind, the big one. Offer mind you spoke at it and you were coming off stage. And I walked out and it was you and Dave and I like ran up to you as you were getting on the elevator. Do you remember this? Russell: Yes I do. Josh: And remember I was like Russell. And I didn't know you hardly at all this time. We kind of knew, basically, we had had some interactions. I was like, I'm trying to dream 100 you, what's a good gift? And you're like old books. Ding, the elevator door shuts. You're on the elevator, I'm off the elevator. And I was like, all right, that's all I have to go on. Russell: And you sent me some amazing old books. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So, very very cool. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Yeah. And so I just, again, I'm kind of going back through and I'm relearning from Tony again and from other people and stuff like that. But then this book keeps coming up and for some reason the title didn't grab me. I was like, Outwitting the Devil, it sounds stupid. I didn't want to read it. It never even crossed my mind as a book I was going to read. It's not something that I would really care about. And then one day I downloaded it on Audible. I download almost all the books I buy physical copies of- Josh: A hundred percent. Russell: I do it Audible too just in case. And I'm one of those kind of people that when I'm in a mood for something, that's why when I travel, it drives my wife crazy. I'll bring a backpack with like 40 books. I don't know what mood I'm going to be in. Russell: And she's like, why don't you bring a Kindle? I'm like, because like paper and I wanted to be able to hold it and see where the bookmarks at. Josh: Yeah, yeah. Russell: And the same thing is true with Audible. So I just download all the Audible just in case. And so one day I was working out, I was trying, anyway. This is a longer story, but I was trying to buy success.com at the time, it ended up falling through. I didn't get it. But Napoleon Hill was actually one of the original, he wrote for success in 1980. In fact, hold, this is kind of cool. This is Napoleon Hill's, he started a magazine. He actually talks about it in Outwitting The Devil. So he started a magazine called Hill's Golden Rule. This is one of the original, this one is from 1919. But anyway, he was also an author in the original Success Magazines back in 1800, I have a whole bunch of copies, actually 1800's and Napoleon Hill's articles in Success Magazine. Josh: Dang, that's so cool. Oh my gosh. Russell: So I had just gotten some of these things. And then one morning I was working out and I was looking at my playlist and Outwitting the Devil popped up. And for some reason I was like, all right. So I clicked it and it start talking about this magazine, talked about Hills Golden Rule, talked about Success Magazine, which I was trying to acquire the time and all these things. I was just like, oh my gosh. And so the very beginning he tells the story, he's kind of telling the story, I don't really know what I was going to go. He's telling this story about his life. And then all of a sudden transitions to this conversation is happening with the devil. Russell: And as you know, you've read it. Josh: It's so good. Russell: It's just like, I started getting like, oh my gosh. Why did nobody tell me about this before this is ... Let me put in perspective, I've read a lot of personal development books. I love Think and Grow Rich. This is so much better than Think and Grow Rich. Josh: It is, I agree with that. Russell: And, do you want me to tell the story behind or do you want to tell? What's the... Josh: Full behind... Russell: Just what the book is, where it came from. This is an amazing story. Josh: I just want to pass it over to you because I have questions about it. So I want to kind of hear things from your perspective here on this thing. I think a lot of people do as well. It's funny though, because when you put this on, gosh, I kind of picked up reading halfway through last year. I made a public declaration when I graduated from high school, I literally, I bought a pickup truck. Russell: I don't read anymore. Josh: And I put down the tailgate, I got up there, I stood up, I held my arms there and I literally yelled audibly out loud. I will never read another book ever again, outside of the Bible. Literally I was so done with reading my mom made us do all this reading in high school. Right. I was like, I'm so done. And thankfully that's not the case. Russell: Do you know what that reminds me of? I got done wrestling my senior year in college and after my last match. I've publicly said I will never run again. And then I gained 60 pounds, now I run. Josh: And now you run. Yeah. Russell: We had a similar experience. We were like- Josh: We'll never do that again. But six months into last year I started picking up reading more or whatever. And actually I've been averaging three books a month this year, which is freaking awesome. But, I'm halfway through. I can't remember what book it was. I see on your Instagram story. And you're like, everybody read this book. Russell: Every chapter, it was like, oh my gosh. Josh: Right. So I immediately go and buy it. And as soon as I finished the next book, I read the whole thing. And I think I read it in two sittings, right? Like the whole day I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good. So I do. I want you to kind of break it down for those people out there that don't know what it is. It is a story of Napoleon Hill interviewing the devil essentially. So I have a lot of questions just after you kind of explain the context of it all, but why don't you just kind of give people some context around what that is. Russell: By the way I spent last little while trying to take the entire book and put it into a framework like I do. So that's what this is back here, we'll talk about this. And some of the things… Josh: We have this here too. Russell: That hopefully serve as a framework for you guys. If you decided to read, here's some stuff to help. But, okay. Russell: So there's the story. So Think and Grow Rich was published in 1937, the next year. And if you've read Think and Grow Rich, there's times in here where he's like having conversations, people would pass away. People died, he's thinking about them and having these, in his head, these conversations that they come into the book. So it's pretty cool. So in 1937, 1938 he writes the manuscript for Outwitting the Devil. Josh: Yep. Russell: And so it's a year later. And the premise of this is literally, he talks about, I don't know if this is a little interview or if this was a physical, just something in my head, but this is the conversation I had with the devil. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And it's less of just an interview, but more like he's putting the devil on trial. He's on trial and he's like, you have to answer my questions. These are my questions. Josh: And the during this time, the devil, I can't remember how he explained it in the book, but the devil is forced to have to tell the truth 100% of the time. So any question that he asked him, he cannot lie. He has to be able to tell the truth. And that's one of the questions in there is he even says, it doesn't matter if you're religious or not. It doesn't matter whether you think it's a metaphor or whether you think he actually sat down and interviewed the devil. No matter what it was, the principles still reign true. Which is why I love the book. And you basically take that element out of it. Don't let that belief get in your way, still read the book. So, yeah. And 1938 is when he wrote the book, but didn't get published in 1938. Russell: Yeah. So imagine, this is one of the coolest stories ever. So 1938, he writes the book and in the book, he actually talks about the devil's like, if you ever publish this, it'll destroy your life, it will destroy your family it will destroy everything, because all the people fighting against this are going to destroy you. And so he finishes this book a year after Think and Grow Rich, has the manuscript. And he's so scared. He never actually publishes it. So he ends up dying. I think in '78, I believe. He passes away. His wife, second person gets the manuscript. She reads it. And she's like, I'm not publishing this. Josh: Yeah. Russell: She refuses to publish it. Later, she passes away. Napoleon Hill foundation gets the book. It gets to them, they read it and they're like, oh my gosh, this is probably the best thing he's ever written. Russell: And then they actually contacted, this is cool. I talked to Sharon Lechter last week. So I called Sharon Lechter. She's right here. Says- Josh: No way. That's awesome. Russell: Right here. Sharon Lechter. So she was probably the fourth person to ever read the manuscript. They sent it to her, what do you think we should do with this. So she says she got it. She sat down and she was reading it. And she's like, this is one of the greatest things ever published. If you don't know Sharon Lechter. She was the one who helped with all of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad books. She was the CEO of the company for a long time. She helped build the biggest financial education company on the planet. And now she's coming over here to this mission and she takes his book and she's the one who takes it, gets the manuscript ready for print. Inside of here's got her notes, which is kind of cool. Her notes taking it from, it was published back in, the last big crash what were the two- Josh: Eight, yeah. Russell: 2008. So she's sharing things in here and how they relate back then, which is kind of cool. But anyway, so she published it. Josh: And it's in the audio book as well, she kind of goes through and comments. Russell: She jumps in. Josh: There's a devil's voice. And then there's Napoleon Hill's voice. And then there's her kind of commenting, which is actually kind of cool through the thing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It is kind of cool to make it natural or make it kind of tied to the time. But I think even nowadays, a decade later, whatever, it's even more- Josh: Well. Russell: Applicable. Josh: And that's, what's crazy is you read the book and if you didn't know that it was written back in 1938, you'd be like, oh, he's totally talking about right now. Russell: Yeah. Josh: You have no clue he's talking about- Russell: Because some of the references he's talking about Hitler and Mussolini. All of these people and we're like, okay, well, the dictators nowadays are different, but that was who- Josh: Right. Russell: The things that were happening. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right then in time. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And just the craziness of fear and economic turmoil and depression. I'm like, huh. Sounds like where we're at now. So anyway. Russell: So that's, the cool story about it. It's just this book that this manuscript has been lost for generations from literally the best personal development author of our time. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And to bring it back. I was just visualizing myself as Sharon Lechter reading that original. Can you imagine just reading the manuscript and be- Josh: Being the first part of the third or fourth person to ever read it? Russell: So insanely cool. So anyway, that's kind of the backstory and then you get into it and it's fascinating. So that's the story behind the book. Josh: That's why you guys have to read it, how cool is that? Yeah, it's super, super cool. And kind of what I'd love to do, I want you to go through, because I think this is important. For the sake of time, I mean, we could probably talk for four or five or six hours on this book. But for the sake of time, the time constraints, I think this summarizes the book super well. Josh: And so I'd love to go through the book. I'd love to see your interpretation of the framework and kind of explain it. And then, it's funny because whenever I go through personal development books, you see everything through the world of funnels and marketing and things like that. I cannot read a personal development book without looking at whether or not the fundamental principles of it are true or what they align with. Right. So they align with Christianity or Atheism or whatnot. So I have questions about, because I'm a huge fan of the book. You're a huge fan of the book. Right. But there's some certain things in here that he talks about that I have questions that I'd love to know your opinion on. So I think if we go through and kind of talk through the overall context of the book here and then kind of pivot towards that towards the end, I think that would be awesome. Russell: Well, one thing to just kind of address that before we get too deep into it. Because I know a lot of people have this fear of reading, anything of what if I don't believe it. Well, I'm not this belief therefore, I can't. And I'm such a big believer in there's truth in most things, I think there's truth in all things. And I can read something and be like, oh my gosh, 97% of this, I believe spot on. 3% I don't really agree with, but I can still appreciate the 97% and love it and enjoy it and be grateful for it. In fact, I do the same thing in my personal relationships, I can talk to somebody I don't agree 100% with. And I still like them afterwards, which is something I think our world needs to learn how to do better. But. Josh: Yeah, even if you lose Bitcoin bets. Russell: Hey, now. Let’s talk about frameworks… That's 3% of him I can’t stand right now. Anyway, okay. So the way my mind works, when I read it ... So I read the book first time and I was just in this whirlwind of, oh my gosh, there's so many things. And I was re listening today as I was working out, trying to ... This is a framework, but there's so many levels and layers and things go deeper and deeper and deeper. So the first time I listened to it, I was just kind of overwhelmed because there's so much good stuff. Russell: And the second time I was going through it, I was like, okay, if I was trying to doodle this to explain to somebody what's the overarching- Josh: Yeah, what's the promise of the book? Russell: The framework. Josh: Yeah. Russell: That's just kind of the way if you've read any of my books, that's how my brain works. I read like 30 books and from there I'm like, okay, this is what I think they're saying. So this is kind of the premise. I'll walk up to the board and kind of show you guys this. But the basic concept is all of us, me, you, anybody. Right. We have a decision comes to us and we've got two choices every single time. And that's kind of where this whole thing starts from. So should I go over there? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. You take my mic too. Russell: Okay, I'm taking mic. So I know you guys can't see this perfectly and this is going to be the words they're all small, so I'll kind of talk through it and hopefully that'll work. So here's me or you. And this is us and we have decisions come to us. They come to us. Am I audio right here? Can you hear it? Cool. So we have decisions all the time. So the biggest thing is, if something comes to us, we can make decisions based on one or two things. Right. We're either making decision based on faith or based on fear. That's it, those are the two things. And obviously, especially in the last year, we've noticed, I think that this has been amplified. Where do most of us make our decisions? I think the way you'll find is that people traditionally make their decisions one way or the other. Russell: Either they make all their decisions towards fear, or all of them towards faith. And so that's something start thinking about personally yourself, as I start thinking about when I'm making decisions, am I doing them through fear or through faith? And I feel like people, not a hundred percent, I think you tend to favor one of these. And it's important because when you start understanding Satan, how the devil is using these as tools, it starts helping you think, I got to start making my decisions differently or else I'm doing what he wants. So I'm going to start on the fear side. So his initial goal is to get people to make decisions based on fear. If he can get that, you become what he calls the drifter. So drift or somebody who's drifting through life- Josh: I'm going to stop you really quick. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Really quick. I'm just going to take my mic back really quick. I think one of the things I want to just cover here really quick, is kind of the premise of how this, even before we dive into this, how this came about. Because in the book, basically Napoleon Hill asks the devil. He's like, Hey, listen, I want to understand what you, as the devil are doing to try to control people. Because in the book, one of the things that he claims, and I guess you have it up here, the 98%. Is that the devil controls 98% of people on the earth by getting them to do drifting, which we'll talk about here in a second. Right? And so the whole premise of this book is basically Napoleon Hill is interviewing the devil and getting the devil to explain how the laws of the universe work and basically how the devil is using those laws of the universe to pull people towards him. And then he also draws contrast of that, of how God uses them to draw people towards God. And so it's basically understanding the laws of success, the laws of the universe, how they work and it's, what is it? The secrets of freedom and success. So if you understand he's asking questions with the specific intention of trying to figure out how the world works, how the devil is using those, and then how we can use those things to ultimately have success if we can figure out how they work. Is that? Russell: Perfect. Josh: Good. Yeah. Russell: Cool. Thank you for adding that. That was awesome pre-frame and I think that ... Hope that works. When you understand that it's like, that is this that's the war we're in every single day, right? I mean, it's every movie. Right and wrong, good and evil. Right? That's the fight. Right? And so the devil here is showing, this is my playbook. This is how I get people to come to my side. And so his side, he calls them drifters. Drifters, people who are drifting through life. They're not ambitious, not doing anything. There's kind of there. And when you're a drifter, he controls you. And he said, 98% of the population he controls by getting them to drift. The first thing does that by initially, decision comes, you act in faith or act in fear. If you act in fear, you are moving down towards being a drifter, okay. Now he starts going through what are the most effective ... Ugh, so good. So many good things. But so he said, how does he get people to act towards fear? So he's like, these are my six tools. I have six tools. Off camera: Are we good on volume? Russell: Is the volume good? Do I need to yell louder? Okay. These are the six tools, the most effective tools I use. I have to get people to act towards. So the first one is poverty. If you can get them to fear poverty, oh, if I do the thing I might could be poor. Then I'm going to be fearful instead of having faith. And, I don't care if I'm poor, I'm going to go for it. Right. So he gets people to fear through poverty. Through criticism. How many of you guys have had a decision to make, and you have fear. Oh, what if people criticize me? That's one of his tools, right? Health. Ah, I don't know if I can do that. Because I'm not healthy enough. Loss of love, old age and death. So those are the six most effective fears that the devil uses that get you to take fear over faith. And he said of those six, the two most powerful are poverty and death. He can get you to be scared of, I'm going to lose all my money. I'm going to be broke. Or, oh, if I do that, I might die. Or, I might not... Those things. Those are the two most powerful tools. So that was really fascinating for me. I look to that because I have so many times in my life when I have decisions, I am scared of criticism or I'm scared of loss of love or whatever those things might be, right. Entrepreneurship. How many times you trying to gamble everything. If you're scared of poverty, right? Then it's like, ah. In fact, I have entrepreneurs all the time. This is a conversation I have way more often than you would think where they're coming to me. And they built the business to a certain point and they're stuck and they're so scared. And the thing that I always had to come back to them, what's the worst case scenario? Because there's a spot where they're so fearful. They can't act and they can't make decisions. They can't do anything. And they just are frozen and they start shrinking right there. You see them going from people who have the presence to be able to take action. Do things. These people are stuck and frozen. And I literally, my conversation I have over and over and over again, it's like, well, what's the worst case scenario. Because if you're not okay with the worst case scenario with poverty, with death, these things. If you're not okay with those, there's no way you're going to have faith to move forward. You have to break yourself of the worst case scenario. And so I see this in my own life. I see it in so many entrepreneurs, coach, I see this as the cycle for them getting to fear. So everyone take a personal reflection. Which one are the ones that you're most afraid of, is it poverty, criticism, ill health, loss of love, old age or death. Josh: And I'm actually just going to stand up here. Because I think it'll be easier. And one of the things that... So what he's trying to do is he's trying to use one of these six things to get you to become a drifter. Ooh, we just moved the screen. That's the key thing. And I'm looking at this camera here. Okay. That's the key thing that he's trying to get you to do is the devil wants you to become a drifter because if the opposite of being drifting is, and it's the characteristics of a non drifter over here, is you have definitive purpose. You have mastery over self, you have a learning from adversity, controlling environmental influence, time, positive thoughts over time. And then thinking through plans before you act on them. So if you have those things, that's the opposite of being a drifter. If he can get you to drift, then you don't have definitive purpose, then you're not actually going after anything. Then you're not going to be able to have control over it. And then he has control over you. And that's the comparison that he keeps drawing in the book, right? If he can get you to drift, then he has control over you. But if you're not a drifter, then guess what? Then he doesn't have power over you. And then you're ultimately going to have success and freedom in life. And so, these are the things that he lays out in the book and it's like, okay, look, if you choose to be a free thinker, if you choose to be someone who is like, this is what we're all about. Has control of your mind. You're going to come into this spiritual, mental, and physical freedom category versus the drifter category. Russell: Yeah. It's amazing. And yeah, I think what... In fact, I almost called this column here, definitive purpose. Because it's so in fact if you read Think and Grow Rich, he talks to the whole chapter about definitive purpose. People who say, this is the thing I want going to go through it. I'm at a definitive purpose. No matter what happens, no matter what obstacles, trials I'm going to go get the thing that's definitive purpose, right? Again, that's the big premise of Think and Grow Rich. And here he comes back to it. Again, I almost made the title of this, but it's not- Josh: I think it fits better. Russell: It does. But it's not an opposite, where this is freedom versus drifting is the opposites. And this is what it actually says in the book. Josh: If we just summarized it as one word drifters versus freedom. Russell: Yeah, yeah. Spiritual and physical freedom. Yeah, because freedom of mind, this whole thing is he trying to control the mind if you control your mind, you win. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so, yeah. The definitive purpose, that's the number one characteristic of a non drifter is definitive purpose. Right? So, you're coming here. I'm an act. And you're like, oh, I got fear. I got fear. What if, what if, what if they criticize me? And you don't act. Where here you're like I've got definitive purpose. This is my mission. This is the goal. I don't care what happens. I'm going to go for it and you just go for it. And that's where you're acting in faith. I don't know the path. I don't know where I'm going, but I believe in my skillset, I believe in my mission. I believe in my calling. I'm going to go and you start moving and eventually you show up and you end up over here. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So anyway, and then these other ones are all amazing. We can go deeper, but. Josh: Yeah, we can go deeper. And I think we can hold this. This is the same thing. Right? Russell: Okay. Josh: So we can hold up there? Russell: All right. Josh: And that way we can get kind of back to poor Brandon's over there. Brandon's over there like, yeah. Russell: You're ruining my mic. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things I want to dive deep down in on this is specifically on here, you have this thing called hypnotic rhythm. And if I were to do this, as an overview, it's basically, there's a human and then there's the devil. And then there's God, this is basically how he describes it in the book. Right. There's the devil and there's God. And there's the human and the human is going through life and there's the devil pulling for him and there's God pulling for him. Right. And then that person has the choice. Russell: It's like two angels, devil on your shoulder Josh: Yeah, pretty much. Right. And then you have the choice to either choose faith or choose fear, which is why, one of the things that I've been so adamantly kind of fighting right now is, don't live in fear. Why is anybody fearful of anything? And I know that's easy for me to say, because I'm not afraid of death. Right. And that's literally one of the top things that he uses to control the mind. Right. And you look around the world today and everyone's so afraid of dying or it's like, who cares? Whatever. I know where I'm going when I die. But, that's one of the things that I've been fighting so strongly. So, I have a fear and I become a drifter or I have faith and I become someone with definitive purpose and I have freedom ultimately in my life. But there's this thing underneath that is kind of the core crux of what ultimately keeps us there. And it's, I actually have notes on it, but it's this thing called hypnotic rhythm. Russell: It was interesting because he talks about hypnotic rhythm after he talks about drifters. And he's like my goal is to get them into hypnotic rhythm. He says that if you go from routines to habits you have, it's going to be habitual. And they're habitual, they become hypnotic rhythm where you're stuck in this cycle. And he says is that how you control the drifters. That's how the universe controls everything. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Positive and negative. That's why, if you look at the bottom here, it's got the little whirlpool at the bottom for hypnotic rhythm. It's the same thing. So if you have good habits and you're doing things, do you get a spot where eventually it's a pattern that you're just stuck in. It's easier to stay in the 2%. If you're in the 98%, it's easier to stay there too. Hypnotic rhythm serves all things. Josh: And that's the thing I think is so interesting about it is the way that he explains it is hypnotic rhythm is the thing that keeps the world in harmony. Right? And one of the quotes out of the book that I wrote down is nature, which in this particular case he's talking about nature in the form of hypnotic rhythm. "Nature is not interested in morals, as such she is not interested in right or wrong. She is not interested in justice or injustice. She's interested only in forcing everything to express action according to its nature." Right? So when you go into hypnotic rhythm, either positively or negatively, you get into the rhythm of nature, right. And nature is interested. And if you look at it purely from an objective standpoint, he's saying that nature is only interested in making the thing, the object, in this case you do what has been designed to do. So if you're choosing to be in hypnotic rhythm in the spiritual freedom side of things, nature is going to keep you in that. And that's why, it's almost rewiring your whole brain and your whole life for success. It's why successful people continue to have success. And it's why non-successful people do not have success. And I think understanding that and understanding that hypnotic rhythm is, I almost like to think of it as the subconscious mind. Right? Once your subconscious mind goes into the hypnotic rhythm to just do the same thing over and over and over again, it's very, very difficult to escape that. Russell: Yeah. And you see it happen in your life all the time. There's times in my life, when I was wrestling where I had so many routines, so many things where that structure in my life was just, it happens on autopilot because that was what I did. Right. And so it was perfect. I didn't have to everyday figure out, how am I going to be successful? How am I going to have definitive purpose? It become part of me. Right. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It’s something in business, or other parts. I think that it's true. We get these patterns, these ruts, these things, wherever it is. Either positively or negatively, but that's the hypnotic rhythm where that's the goal is to get in those. But in the positive side, not negative side. Because you see it's a downward spiral. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right. Upward spiral positively or downward spiral negatively. But if you get into hypnotic rhythm, that's the thing that keeps you in that spot. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah.

Replay of a special conversation I had on stage at a Traffic Secrets event with a friend and a student, Nic Fitzgerald. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson and I want to welcome you to the Marketing Secrets podcast. The next two episodes are a really special one. For our Two Comma club X members and our inner circle members I did an event recently, some of you guys heard me talk about it. It was a traffic secrets event, where I’m getting all the material ready for the book. And the night before when I was doing all the prep work I had this thought. I was like, I want to bring up somebody on stage and it’s somebody who was a friend I grew up with in elementary school, and junior high, and high school, someone who was down on their luck, who was really, really struggling. About a year ago I saw him post something on Facebook and I reached out, and this interview is happening about a year later. He tells his story about what happened and the transformation and the change that’s happened by being involved inside our Clickfunnels, Funnel Hacker community. So I wanted to share that with you as part of the event, so this first half is going to be Nic kind of telling his story and it’s going to be the story from the bottom of the barrel where they were, they literally made $25,000 a year for 3 years in a row and then the transformation to this year, they’ll do well over six figures. And that’s going to be this first podcast. And the second podcast episode is, I did a live coaching session with him on stage, and I want to share that with you as well because I think there’s a lot of things for you specifically that you can get from this episode too. So the next few episodes are going to be sharing this really fun conversation that happened late night at the Traffic Secrets event with my friend Nic Fitzgerald, and if you think that name sounds familiar, I have talked about him before on this podcast. In fact, a little over a year ago I did a podcast episode called “Being a Rainmaker” that was a personalized podcast that I sent to Nic specifically to help him with what he was struggling with at the time. So anyway, I wanted to share this with you because it will take you full circle to show you kind of the progress and the momentum and things that are happening in his life, and I think it will be encouraging for you to hear the story because no matter where you are in your journey right now, if you are struggling, doing well, or if you’re somewhere in between, there are parts of this story that will resonate with you. And in the second episode where I coach Nic I think will help everybody as well. So with that said, let’s jump right in and have some fun. I want to introduce you to my friend Nic Fitzgerald. Alright so I want to set the tone for the next hour or so of what the game plan is. So I have a first initial question that I’m curious about with everyone here. I’m curious, who since they joined the Two Comma Club X program has had some kind of experience with Mr. Nic Fitzgerald? That’s powerful, I’m going to talk about why in a little bit, but very, very cool. So some of the back story behind this, and then we’re going to introduce him up, and when he comes up I want you guys to go crazy and scream and cheer and clap, because it will be good, and then I want him to sit down so we’ll be the same height, which will be good, it’ll be fun. So some of the back story, I actually met Nic the very first time in elementary school, and even in elementary school he was a foot and a half taller than me, which is amazing. He was like 6 ft 2 in like third grade, it was amazing. But we knew each other when we were dorky little kids and going up through elementary school we were both doing our things, and we didn’t have a care in the world and everything’s happening. And as we got older he kept getting taller, I stopped growing. And then we got into high school and he kept growing and he joined the basketball team. I didn’t keep growing so I went downstairs in the basement, literally, at our high school in the basement they call it the rubber room, and it’s this room that smells like, I don’t even know, but it’s under the gym. So he would go upstairs and fans would show up and people would cheer for them, and scream at their games. And all the girls would come to the games. And we’d go down in the rubber room by ourselves and cut weight and put on our sweats and lose weight and we’d jump rope and sweat like crazy. And we’d sit there, and I remember one day after working out for two hours pouring in sweat, I had my plastic gear on and my sweats on top of that, my hoodie and my hoods and we got the wrestling mats, and literally rolled ourselves up in the wrestling mats to keep the heat in, and we laid there and we were so hot. And I could hear the basketball players in the gym up above having so much fun and people cheering for them. And all the girls were there. And I was like, “Why are we not playing basketball?” It doesn’t make any sense. But during that time, obviously we were in two different kind of worlds, and we didn’t really connect that much, and then we left our separate ways. And I didn’t hear from him for years and years and years. And then do you guys remember Facebook when it first came out? The first time you got it and you log in and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can connect with people.” And you start searching the friends you know and then you find their friends and you spend a day and a half connecting with every person you’ve ever remembered seeing in your entire life? Do you guys remember that? So I did that one night, I connected with everybody. Everyone in high school, everyone in junior high, or elementary, everyone in every stage of my life, as many as I could think of. And then I was like, I think that’s everybody. Okay, I’ve connected with everybody. And one of those people that night was Nic. And then, but I didn’t say hi, I just friend requested and he requested back and I’m like, cool we’re connected. And then after that I got kind of bored with Facebook for like a year or so. Then a little while later I found out you can buy ads on it and I was like, what, this is amazing. So we started buying ads and everything is happening. And it’s crazy. And then what happened next, I actually want Nic onstage to tell you this story because I want you to hear it from both his perspective and my perspective, I think it’d be kind of interesting. So let’s do this real quick. As you guys know Nic has been a super valuable part of this community since he came in. I’m going to tell the story about how he got here and some of the craziness of how he signed up when he probably shouldn’t have and what’s been happening since then, because I know that you guys have all been part of that journey and been supporting him. How many of you guys are going to his event that’s happening later this week? He just keeps giving and serving, he’s doing all the right things, he’s telling his story, he’s doing some amazing stuff. So my plan now is I want to talk about the rest of the story. I want to tell you guys what I told him a year ago and then I want to tell you guys my advice for him moving forward, because I feel like it’s almost in proxy. I wish I could do that with every one of you guys. Just sit down here and coach you. But I feel like he’s at a stage where some of you guys aren’t to where he’s at yet and some of you are past that, and some of you guys are right where he’s at, and I feel like the advice that I really want to give him, will help you guys at all different levels. So that’s kind of the game plan. So with that said, let’s stand up and point our hands together for Mr. Nic Fitzgerald. Look how tall I am. I feel like….okay, so I had him find this post because I wanted to actually share a little piece of it. So this, I’m going to share a piece of it, I want to step back to where you were at that time in your life. So this was July 7, 2017, so what was that a year and a half ago, ish? So July 7, 2017 there was a post that said, “Long post disclaimer. I hate posting this, blah, blah, blah.” So at the time my family was about to go on a family vacation. We’re packing up the bags and everything, and you know how it is, you do a bunch of work and then you stop for a second and your wife and kids are gone and you’re like, pull out the phone, swap through the dream 100 and see what’s happening.  And somehow this post pops up in my feed and I see it, I see Nic my buddy from 20+ years ago and I’m reading this thing and my heart sinks for him. Some of the things he says, “I hate posting things like this, but I felt like need to for a while. Being poor stinks. For those friends of mine who are ultra conservative and look down consciously or not, on people like me, I can honestly tell you that I’m not a lazy free loader who wants something for nothing. I’m not a deadbeat who wants Obama or whoever to blame now, to buy me a phone. I’m not a lowlife trying to get the government to pay for my liposuction. I’m not a druggie who eats steak and lobster for dinner with my food stamps. I’m a father of four, a husband, someone who lost everything financially, including our home when the time came to have your healthcare in place or to get fined, I went through the process. “Based on my family size and income, we were referred to the state to apply for those programs. We couldn’t get coverage for ourselves to the exchange in other places, we qualified for Medicaid. After the process was complete, the state worker suggested we try to get some other help, some food stamps.” It kind of goes on and on and on and he says, “In 2016 I made $25000. $25,000 plus our tax returns for the previous year. So a family of 6 living on $25,000 a year is being audited for receiving too much help, too much assistance.” And it kind of goes on and on and on with that. He says, “I’ve never abused drugs or alcohol, I’ve never even tried them. I’m just a guy trying to live the American dream and provide for his family. It’s unfortunate that we look down on those who are trying to better our lives, even if it leaves them from receiving help from assistance in place to help them. Look down on me if you want, I don’t care. I know the truth. My family is healthy and sheltered and that’s all that matters. I don’t wish these trials on anyone else…” and it kind of goes on from there. So I want to take you back to that moment, what was, talk about what you were experiencing and what you were going through during that time. Nic: I didn’t expect this. I’m a friendly giant, but I’m a big boob too. Back at that time, I had started what I thought was, I started my entrepreneurial journey. I was working in film full time, working 12, 14, 16 hour days making $200 a day, just killing myself for my family. Going through the process of, I’d lost my job because I wasn’t going to hit my sales, I was a financial advisor, and I wasn’t going to hit my sales numbers. So you know, my ticket was stamped. So I said okay, I’m going to do my own thing. And in the course of all that, it was time to get your health insurance and those things, and I went through the proper channels, like I felt like I should. And I was referred to the government for the programs, based on the numbers. And as a provider, a father, an athlete competitor, I felt like a failure. We’ve all, when you have to rely on somebody else , or somebody else tells you, “Hey, we don’t think you can do this on your own, come over here and we’ll take care of you.” That’s basically what I was told. So it was hard to accept that and to live with that reality. So we did, and I worked hard and it was a blessing really, to not have to worry about how much health care costs or have some of the things to supplement to feed our family and stuff. So it was great and it was wonderful. But then I got the email from the state saying, “Hey, you’re being audited. We’re just looking at things and we’re not sure. You’ve been getting too much help.” So at that point I’m just sitting there frustrated because I’m working my butt off, just trying to make things happen, become someone involved in the film community in Utah. And I was, and everyone knew me, and I had a reputation, but I still was a nobody in the eyes of the government. So I went to Facebook to whine, looking for what I wanted, which was a pat on the back, “There, there Nic, you’re doing…we know you’re a good dude and you’re working hard.” That kind of thing, and I did… Russell: I was reading the comments last night. “Oh you’re doing a good job man. Good luck.” Everyone like babying him about how tough life can be. Nic: So I got what I wanted, but it still didn’t change anything. I still had to submit my last two years of tax returns and all of the pay that I’d got and everything like that, so they could look at our case number, not Nic, Leisle, Cloe,Ewen, Alek, William. So it was just one of those things. I got what I wanted, then comes Russell to give me what I needed, which was…. Russell: I saw that and I’m like packing the kids bags and everything and I was like, “ah, do I say something?” I don’t want to be that guy like, “Hey, 20 years ago…” and I was like, ah, I kept feeling this. Finally I was like, “hey man, I know we haven’t talked in over 20 years…” This was on Facebook messenger, “we hadn’t talked in like 20 years. I saw your post today and it sucks. And I know what’s wrong, and I can help. But at the same time, I don’t want to be that guy and I don’t want to step on any toes. I know we haven’t talked in 20 years, I have no idea if this is even appropriate. But I know what’s wrong, I can help you. And no, this is not some cheesy MLM I’m trying to pitch you on. But if you’re interested in some coaching, I know what’s wrong.” And I kind of waited and then I started packing the bags again and stuff like that. I’m curious of your thoughts initially as you saw that. Nic: It’s funny because my phone was kind of blowing up with the comments. So I would hear the little ding and I would check. And then I saw that it was a message from Russell, and we had said like, “Hey, what’s up.” And had a few tiny little small talk conversations, but nothing in depth personal. So I saw that he sent a message, so I’m like, “Sweet.” So I look at it, and I was half expecting, because I knew he was successful, I didn’t know about Clickfunnels per se. I knew he had something going on that was awesome, but I didn’t know what it was. So I was wondering, “I wonder what he’s going to say, what he has to say about things?” But I read it and it was funny because when you said, “I don’t want to overstep my bounds. It’s been a long time, I don’t want to step on toes.” Kind of thing, Russell, we all know his athletic accolades and stuff. I was a great basketball player too, I was in the top 200 players in the country my senior year and stuff like that. So I’ve been coachable and played at high levels and been coached by high level guys. So when I read it and he said, “I know what’s wrong and I can help you.” I was just like, “Yes.” That was my reaction. I just did the little, um, fist pump, let’s do this. So I replied back and I thanked him for reaching out and stuff, and I just said, I think I even said, “I’m coachable. I will accept any guidance.” And things like that. Because up until that point in my life, especially in sports, if a coach showed me something, I would do it the way he did, and I would kick the other dude’s butt. I didn’t care. I played against guys who made millions of dollars in the NBA. I dunked, I posterized on Shawn Marion when he was at UNLV my freshman year of college. I started as a freshman in a division one school in college. So I would take, I’ve always been that kind of, I would get that guidance, that direction, I can put it to work. So I was just like, “Dude, Mr. Miyagi me.” I’m 8 days older than him, so I’m like, “young grasshopper, yes you can teach me.” That kind of thing. So I welcomed it and I was excited. I had no idea, because again I didn’t know what he did. I just knew he had a level of success that I didn’t have. And if he was willing to give me some ideas, I was going to hear him out for sure. Russell: It was fun, because then I messaged him back. I’m packing the car and Collette’s like, “We gotta go, we gotta go.” I was like, ah, so I get the thing out and I was like, “This is the deal. I’m driving to Bear Lake, it’s like a six hour drive. I’m going to give you an assignment and if you do it, then I’ll give you the next piece. But most people never do it, so if you don’t that’s cool and I’ll just know it’s not worth your time. But if it’s really worth your time, do this thing. I need you to go back and listen to my podcast from episode one and listen to as many episodes as possible, and if you do that I’ll make you a customized episode just for you telling you exactly what’s wrong and how to fix it. But you have to do that first. “And I’m not telling you this because I’m on some ego trip, but just trust me. The problem is not your skill set, you  have mad skills, you’re good at everything. It’s all a problem between your ears. If we can shift that, we can shift everything else.” Then I jumped in my car and took off and started driving for six hours. And then the next day, or a day later you’re like, “I’m 14 episodes in.” he was still listening to the crappy one’s, according to Steven Larsen. The Marketing In Your Car, he was probably thinking, “This is the worst thing I’ve ever heard, ever.” But he did it. I said do it, he did it. And he kept doing it and doing it, and so two days into my family vacation I had Norah, you guys all know Norah right. She’s the coolest. But she won’t go to bed at night, she’s a nightmare. Don’t let that cute face trick you, she’s evil. So I’m like, I can’t go to sleep, so finally I was like, I’m going to plug her in the car and drive around the lake until she falls asleep. So I plug her in the car, strap her in and I start driving. And I’m like, this could be a long, long thing. She’s just smiling back here. I was like ugh. I’m like you know what, I’m going to do my episode for Nic. So I got my phone out, I clicked record and for probably almost an hour, it was an hour. I’m driving around the lake and I explain to him what I see. Did anyone here listen to that episode? I’m curious. I’m going to map out really quick, the core concept. Because some of you guys may be stuck in this, and the goal of this, what I want to do is I want to map this out, and then what’s funny is last year at Bear Lake, so a year later we had this thing where I was like, we should do a second round where I do a year later, this is the advice now. And I wrote a whole outline for it and I totally never did it. So I’m going to go through that outline now, and kind of show him the next phase. So you cool if I show kind of what I talked about? Nic: For sure. Russell: Alright, so those who missed the podcast episode, who haven’t been binge listening, you’ve all failed the test, now you must go back to episode number one, listen to the cheesy jingle and get to episode, I don’t know what it was. Okay, I’ve said this before, if you look at any business, any organization, there’s three core people. The first one is the person at the top who is the entrepreneur. The cool thing about the entrepreneur is the entrepreneur is the person who makes the most amount of money. They’re the head and they get the most amount of money. The problem with the entrepreneur is they also have the most risk, so they’re most likely to lose everything. I’ve lost everything multiple times because I’m the guy risking everything. But the nice thing is entrepreneurs that write their own paychecks, there’s no ceilings. So they can make as much as they want. They can make a million, ten million, a hundred million, they can do whatever they want because there’s no ceiling. So that’s the first personality type. The second personality type over here is what we call the technicians. The technicians are the people who actually do the work. And what’s funny, if you look at this, people who go to college are the technicians. What do they do, they look down on entrepreneurs, they look down on sales people. “Oh you’re in sales. What are you a doctor?” For crying out loud in the night. But they look down on people like us. Because “I’m a doctor. I went to 45 years of school.” What’s interesting, there’s technicians in all sorts of different spots right. I actually feel bad, I shouldn’t say this out loud, but at the airport here I saw one of my friends who is an amazing doctor and him and his wife were leaving on a trip and we were talking and he said, “This is the first trip my wife and I have been on in 25 years, together by ourselves.” I’m like, “What?” and he’s like, ‘Well, we had medical school and then we had kids and then we had to pay off medical school and all these things. Now the kids are gone and now we finally have a chance to leave.” I was like, wow. Our whole lives we’ve heard that medical school, becoming a doctor is the…..anyway that’s a rant for another day. But I was like, there’s technicians. And what’s interesting about technicians, they don’t have any risk. So there’s no risk whatsoever, but they do have, there’s a price ceiling on every single person that’s a technician, right. And depending on what job you have your price ceiling is different. So doctors, the price ceiling is, I have no idea what doctor’s make, $500 grand a year is like the price ceiling, that’s amazing but they can’t go above that. And different tasks, different roles, different position all have different price ceilings. But there’s like, this role as a technician makes this much, and this one makes this much and you’re all kind of these things. I said the problem with you right now, you have these amazing skill sets, but you are stuck as a technician in a role where they’re capping you out, where the only thing you can make is $25k a year. Remember I asked you, “What have you been doing?” and you’re like, “Oh, I’ve been networking, I’ve been learning, I’ve been getting my skills up, getting amazing.” I’m like, “That’s amazing, you’re skills are awesome, but your ceiling is $25k a year. No matter how good you get you are stuck because you’re in a technician role right now.” I said, “you’ve got a couple of options. One is go become an entrepreneur, which is scary because you’ve got four kids at home and you don’t have money anyway.” I am so eternally grateful that when I started this game, my wife, first off, we didn’t have kids yet, my wife was working, we didn’t have any money but I didn’t have to have any money at that time, and I’m so grateful I was able to sometimes, I was able to risk things that nowadays is hard. For you to come jump out on your own initially and just be like, “Boom, I’m an entrepreneur and I’m selling this stuff.” That’s scary right, because you’ve got all this risk. So I was like, that’s the thing, but it’s going to be really, really hard. I said, “there’s good news, there’s one more spot in this ecosystem. And the cool thing about that spot it’s that it’s just like the entrepreneur, there’s no ceiling, now the third spot over here is what we call the rainmakers. The rainmakers are the people who come into a business and they know how to make it rain. This is the people who know how to bring people into a company. Leads, they bring leads in. They know all this traffic stuff they’re talking about. These are the people who know how to sell to leads and actually get money out of peoples wallets and put it into the hands of the entrepreneurs. These people right here, the rainmakers don’t  have ceilings. In fact, companies who give the rainmaker the ceiling are the stupidest people in the world, because the rainmaker will hit the ceiling and then they’ll stop. If you’re smart and you have a company, and you have rainmakers, people driving traffic, people doing sales, if you have a ceiling they will hit and they will stop. If you get rid of the ceiling and then all the sudden they have as much as they want, they have less risk than the entrepreneur, but they have the ability to make unlimited amount of money. I said, “Your skill set over here as a technician is worth 25k a year, but if you take your skill set and shift it over here and say, “I come into a company and I’m a rainmaker. I create videos, I create stories, they’ll sell more products, more things.” Suddenly you’re not worth 25,000, now you’re worth $100,000, you’re worth $500,000. You’re worth whatever you’re able to do, because there’s no ceiling anymore. And that was the point of the podcast. I got done sending it, then I sent it to him and I sent it to my brother to edit it. And I have no idea what you thought about it at that point, because we didn’t talk for a while after that. But I’m curious where you went from there. Nic: So the first thing, you know, being told I was really only worth $25,000 in the eyes of the people who were hiring me, that was a punch in the gut. That sucked to hear. Thanks man. It was just like, I literally was working 12, 14, 16 hour days, lifting heavy stuff, I did a lot with lighting and camera work, not necessarily the story writing stuff, but you know, for him to put it so perfectly, that I was a technician. I thought going in, when I failed as an advisor and I started my own company, or started doing videos for people, and being so scared to charge somebody $250 for a video, being like, “they’re going to say no.” That kind of thing, and now I wouldn’t blink my eyes for that. But you know, it’s one of those things for him to tell it to me that way, just straight forward being like, “You are, you’re learning great skills and you’re meeting amazing people.” I worked with Oscar winners and Emmy winners and stuff in the movies and shows that I worked on, but again, I was only worth that much, they had a finite amount of money, and I was a small part of it, so I got a small piece. So listening to all of that, and then hearing the entrepreneur, the risk and stuff. I’m really tall, I’m 6’9” if you didn’t know. I’m a sink or swim guy, but because I’m tall I can reach the bottom of the pool a lot easier. When I jumped in, we had lost, as a financial advisor we had lost our home and we lost all these things. So I was like, I have nothing left to lose. Worst case scenario, and I had never heard that mindset before. We were renting a basement from a family members, our cars were paid off. Worst case scenario is we stayed there and get food stamps and that kind of thing. There was nowhere to go but up from there. So for me, I was just so excited. I’m like, I want to be a rainmaker, I want to be an entrepreneur, but I didn’t know where to find the people that I could do that for. So I was in this thing where I was still getting lots of calls to work as a technician, but I didn’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t want to put myself, my body, my family through me being gone and then when I’m home I’m just a bump on a log because I’m so wiped out, all that kind of stuff. So that was my biggest first thing, the action point for me. I started thinking, okay how do I transition out of this? How do I get myself out and start meeting the right people, the right kinds of clients who do have budgets and things like that, and how do I make it rain for them. That’s when I made that shift from working as a technician. I told myself I’m not going to do it anymore. The last time I technically worked as a technician was about 9 months ago. It was for a friend. So I made that shift and it was just amazing. Like Russell was talking about earlier, when you start to track it or when it’s part of your mindset, things start to show up and happen. You meet the right people and stuff. So those things just started, just by listening to that one hour long thing, I started changing and then the black box I got, Expert Secrets and Dotcom Secrets and started going through that as well. And it was just like, you see in the Funnel Hacker TV, that moment where the guy goes, “RAAAAA” that’s what happened with me. It was like a whole new world, Aladdin was singing. He was Aladdin and I was Jasmine, with a beard. Russell: I can show you the world. Nic: Exactly. But that’s what really, literally happened with me. Russell: That’s cool. Alright this is like summertime, he’s going through this process now, figuring things, changing things, shifting things, he’s changing his mindset. We go through the summer, we go through Christmas and then last year’s Funnel Hacking Live, were we in February or March last year? March, and so before Funnel Hacking Live we kind of just touched base every once in a while, seeing how things are going. He’s like, “Things are going good. I’m figuring things out.”  And then Funnel Hacking Live was coming, and I remember because we’re sitting there, and I think he messaged me or something, “Funnel Hacking looks awesome I wish I could make it.” I was like, “Why don’t you come?” And you’re like, “I just can’t make it yet.” I was like, “How about this man, I guarantee you if you show up it’ll change your life forever. I’m not going to pay for your flights or your hotel, but if you can figure out how to get there, I’ll give you a free ticket.” And that’s I said, “if you can come let Melanie know, and that’s it.” And I didn’t really know much, because you guys know in the middle of Funnel Hacking Live my life is chaos trying to figure out and how to juggle and all that stuff. So the next thing I know at Funnel Hacking Live, we’re sitting there and during the session I’m looking out and I see Nic standing there in the audience. And I was like, ‘I have no idea how he got there, but he’s there. Freaking good for him.” And I have no idea, how did you get there? That wasn’t probably an easy process for you was it? Nic: No. Credit cards. It was one of those things, I looked at flights. As soon as we had that conversation, it was funny because I was, I can’t remember what was going on, but it was a day or two before I responded back to his invitation. And I was like, I’d be stupid to say no. I have no idea how I’m going to get there. I think I even said, “I’ll hitch hike if I have to, to get there.” Can you imagine this giant sasquatch on route 66 trying to get to Florida. But I told my wife about it, and this is where Russell might have this in common. My wife is incredible and super supportive and she let me go. And we didn’t have the money in the bank so I said, “I’m going to put this on the credit card, and as soon as I get back I’m going to go to work and I’ll pay it off. I’ll get a couple clients and it will be fine.” So I booked the hotel, luckily I was able to get somebody who wasn’t able to go at the last minute and I got their hotel room, and I got the lfight and I came in and I was in the tornado warnings, like circling the airport for 5 hours, like the rest of you were. So I got there and I just remember I was just so excited. Walking in the room the very first day, the doors open and you all know what it’s like. I don’t have to relive this story. I remember I walked in and the hair on my arms, it was just like {whistling}. It was incredible, just the energy and the feeling. And I was like, t his is so cool. And then the very first speech, I was like that was worth every penny to get here. If I left right now it would have all been worth it. And you all know because you’re sitting here, you’ve felt that too. So that was my, getting there was like, “Honey, I know we don’t have the money, we have space on the credit card, and when I get home I swear I will work hard and it will be okay.” And she’s like, “Okay, go.” So I did. Russell: So now I want to talk about, not day one, or day two, but on day three at Funnel Hacking Live. How many of you guys remember what happened on day three? Russell sneak attacked all you guys. I was like, if I start going “Secret one, Secret two, Secret three” you guys will be like, “Here it is.” Sitting back. I was like, how do I do the Perfect webinar without people knowing it’s the perfect webinar? And I’m figuring this whole thing out, trying to figure that out. And we built a nice presentation, create an amazing offer for this program you guys are all in. And as you know, all you guys got excited and ran to the back to sign up and now you’re here. But you told me this personally, I hope you’re willing to share. But I thought it was amazing because you didn’t sign up that night. And I would love to hear what happened from then to the next day, and kind of go through that process. Nic: So this is my first Clickfunnels, I was all new to this whole thing. I was so excited when the 12 month millionaire presentation came up and I was like, “This is awesome.” Then I see it in the stack and I’m like, “I’m seeing the wizard,  I can see the wizard doing his thing.” And I was just so excited, and then the price. And it was a punch in a gut to me, because I was so, listening to it I was like, ‘This is what I need. This is what I want, this is what I need. It’s going to be amazing.” And then the price came and seriously, the rest of the night I was just like…. The rest of the presentation and everything after that I was just kind of zoned out. I just didn’t know what to do. Because I knew I needed it so badly and I’m like, that’s almost twice what we’re paying in rent right now. You know, it was just like, how am I going to justify this when I’m on food stamps and Medicaid and all this kind of stuff. You know, “yes, I’m on that but I dropped this money on a coaching program.” Russell: “From this internet coach.” Nic: Right. And so I’m having this mental battle and get back home to my room that night and I didn’t go hang out with people. I just was not feeling it. And I remember texting my wife on the walk back to the room. And I took the long way around the pond, just slowly depressedly meandering back to my room. And I’m texting her and I’m telling her how amazing it was and what the program would do and all that kind of stuff, and she’s like, “That sounds great.” And I’m purposely not saying how much it’s going to cost, just to get her excited about it, so I can maybe do a stack with her right. “For this and this….” See if I could try it. I didn’t, I failed when it came to doing that. I told her the price and she’s like, “That’s a lot of money. How are you going to pay for it.” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” And I’m like, “The only thing I can do, because I have to sign up while I’m here, and pay for it while I’m here. I can put it on the credit card and then we will figure it out.” So we talked a lot and I talked to my dad and it was the same thing. He was like, “Man, that’s a lot.” Just the scarcity mindset that a lot of us have with our family members and support system who aren’t, don’t think, who aren’t the crazy ones. So I went to bed and I got emotional, and I slept so so bad. Just didn’t sleep well that whole night. And again, I talked to my wife again the next morning, and I just, we just said, “It would be awesome. But I can’t do it, so I’m just going to work hard and figure something out and then if it ever opens up again, then I’ll be in a position to do it.” So I left my room that morning with that in my mind. I made the mistake of keeping my wallet in my pocket though, because I’m here. I again made the long walk back and kind of gave myself a pep talk like, “Don’t worry about that kind of stuff. Just more value out of it, meet more people.” So that’s when I left my room that morning, that’s where my mind was. Russell: What happened next? Nic: I walked into the room and Kevin Hansen, who I had, it’s funny, he does a lot of editing for Clickfunnels, and he and I had actually met independent of Clickfunnels before. It was one of those things like, “Oh you do, oh my gosh.” and it was like 2 months after we’d met. So I was talking to him, just chitchatting, and I just had right then in my mind, it was like, “Walk over to the table and sign up. If you don’t do it now, you’re never going to do it.” And it was just one of those things, because I’d given myself that speech, that whole five minute walk across the property. So I finished up talking with him and I just said, “I’ll be right back.” And I walked straight over to the table, got out the credit card, wrote it all down, and I’m like, I don’t even know what my limit is, so I hope whenever they run this that it goes through. I don’t know what’s going to happen. So I did and I got that little silver ribbon that we all got. And again, {whistling} chills. Like I was like, holy crap, this is amazing. I put it on my little lanyard thing and I was just like, I couldn’t believe it. The adrenaline and all that stuff of, “I’m doing it. And my wife is going to kill me when I get back home.” So that’s, then I went and got my seat and I was just floating, you know. I was so amped, I could have “Steven Larsened” it and screamed over the noise of everybody else and it would have been very, you would have heard it. So that’s what I did that morning. I was like, ‘Not going to do it, not going to do it, not going to do it.” I walked in, 60 seconds done. You have my money. Russell: So I’m curious, when did you tell your wife? This is like a marriage counseling session, huh? Nic: yeah, do you have a couch I can lay down on? Russell: A big couch. Nic: yeah, really. So I got home and I didn’t tell her, at all. I didn’t. I said, the clock is ticking. I have 30 days until that hits, or 20 days until the credit card statement comes and she’s like, “Wait, why is there an extra $2000 bucks on here?” So I just, I said, I’ve got some time because my wife, she’s 5’3”, she’s dainty, little petite lady, but she’s not scary I guess. But this is the first time I was really scared to tell her something in our marriage. So I just said, I’m just going to hit the road hard and see what I can come up with to cover at least the $1800 and the hotel, for what I racked up at Funnel Hacking Live, and then that will get me another 30 days to figure something out. So I went and I never told her until the credit card statement came and she saw it. She’s like, “What’s this?” But what happened before that, I don’t know, do you have something after that or do you want me to go to the next part? Okay, so me going to work and being like, “I gotta find it.” and it’s funny that night at Funnel Hacking Live, I went on Facebook and I created some half thought through offer where it was like, “Hey if I can get like 5 people locally where I’m at to do a monthly low number where I create a couple of videos for a monthly retainer, that will cover it and I can figure it. But nobody nibbled on it. So I got home and I started just trying to figure stuff out. And I had met another lady who had a company and she uses Clickfunnels for her course. And it was funny, I talked to her before I went to Funnel Hacking Live, and we were talking and she was like, “Do you know Clickfunnels?” And I was like, “That’s so crazy. I do.” Because I’d never met anybody else that had. So I got home and I shot a little video with her, it was a test to do some modules for her course and she loved it and it was great. So we were talking about, she had like 20 videos she wanted to do and we were talking about budget, and I just said, “you know what, for that much, for that many videos and all this kind of stuff, it’s going to be $25,000.” And she didn’t even blink. She’s like, “Perfect, that’s great.” Thank you, you guys. You’re going to make me cry. Thank you.  And that was like maybe two weeks after I got home that that happened. And I left her house and I tried my hardest not to do a jump heel click going down her driveway, out to my car, and I got around the corner and I messaged Russell like, “dude, you’ll never guess. I just closed my first 5 figure deal and this is what it was…” and he was like, “That’s so cool.” You know. But it was the whole plata o plomo thing, I would never have the guts to ask for something like that, I know that I should and that my skills and what I can do are worth that and more, and it’s been proven to me again and again since then, but to ask the first time, that first time you have a big ask and you’re just throwing yourself out there, and if she would have said no…Now what am I going to do? Because I had actually done another pitch where I did like a webinar pitch where I  had a stack and slides and stuff because it was for a Chamber of Commerce, and I wanted to charge them 2500 a month to do like 4 videos a year. And I did the whole thing like, “If you do it, it’s $2500 a month, or if you do it all right now it’s this…” that whole you know, and they passed on it. I was like, ugh. So it was just one of those things where being around y’all, that was my first experience being around entrepreneurs, really. I have friends who have had businesses, but I felt weird for wanting to create my own thing or being selfish because I have four kids. Like why don’t you go get a real job? All those conversations that you hear and have with yourself, especially when things aren’t going great. But it was like okay, I have to get it done or I have to drop out. And I just, even in that short amount of time I received so much value from the people I was beginning to meet, and then as the content started coming out I was like, “There’s no way I could live without this after having a taste of it.” So that was my, I had to get it done and it worked out. Russell: Amazing, I love that story. So coo. Alright, so since then, how many of you guys have watched his….are you daily or almost daily Facebook Lives? Nic: Pretty much, almost daily. I’ll miss some… Russell: How many of you guys have watched his daily Facebook lives, he’s doing what we’re saying right. He’s doing it. He’s doing it. I see it, I see it coming in my feed. It pops in my feed over and over. He’s doing what we’re talking about. He’s attracting people, he’s telling stories. All the stuff we’re talking about, he’s been doing it. But part of it, he had to have that emotion, that plata o plomo moment and then he hit it and it’s just like, he’s been running and running and running and running. And it’s been so insanely fun to watch the progress and the growth. Some of you guys know he put out an event that’s coming up this weekend and sold out in 5 seconds. He’s like, “I sold out, should I make it bigger?” and I’m like, “No people should have responded to you faster, it’s their fault. Sell it out because next time it will be easier to sell it out again and easier to sell out again.” But he did it by giving tons of value. Telling stories, telling stories, telling stories, providing more value to you guys, to other entrepreneurs, other people in the community and people are noticing. All the stuff we talked about today, he’s doing it. Consistently, consistently, consistently doing it. That was so cool. I don’t even know where to go from here. Alright I know where to go from here. Before I move into this, was it scary? Nic: All of it scary? Well, this is what, back to my competitive days, I don’t care who, I’d played against the best players in the country at high levels. And I didn’t care if you were going to the NBA, being recruited by Duke, once we got into the lines I didn’t care who you were, I was going to make you look silly. I would hold, you wouldn’t score a point on me, or I would just like out work you and if you wanted to get anywhere I was in your face the whole time. And so this was a whole different game for me. I remember Myron talking about in his speech at Funnel Hacking Live, you have to stay in the game long enough to learn the game, and I was new to this game. Like brand new, less than 12 months when I went to Funnel Hacking Live. And it was terrifying because, not necessarily because I didn’t think I could do it, I was just worried when, how long it would take. Like am I going to go and just spin my wheels and it’s going to be 15 years, 2099 and I’m wheeling up across to get my reward from him in his wheelchair, just like, “Hey buddy.” You know, that kind of thing. I just didn’t know how to make it happen quick. That kind of stuff. So I was definitely scared, not necessarily of failing, because I had failed before, I was just scared how long it was going to take. Russell: one of the best moments for me was this summer, him and his family were driving home from, I can’t remember where, they were driving through Boise, and he’s like, “Can we swing by and say hi? My kids want to meet you, my wife wants to meet you.” That’s always scary when you haven’t met someone’s wife or kids and you’re like, what if they hate me. And I remember I started thinking, oh my gosh. He spent all his money coming out here, and then he bought the thing, she might legitimately want to kill me. I have no idea. I was a little bit nervous. And I came and met them and the kids, it was super cool. I remember the coolest thing, your wife just looked at me and she said, “Thank you.” And I was like, how cool is that? Just the coolest thing. Thank you for convincing, persuading, whatever the things are to do this thing. I think sometimes as entrepreneurs we feel the guilt or the nervousness of, “Should I sell somebody something? Is it right, is it wrong?” You have to understand when you’re doing it, it’s not a selfish thing for you. It’s like, how do I get this person to take the action they need to do. Because most people won’t do it until they make an investment. It’s just human nature. They’ll keep dinking around and dinking around, whatever it is until they have a commitment, until they make that covenant, like Myron talked about earlier, people don’t change. So in any aspect of life, you want someone to make a change, there’s got to be something that causes enough pain to cause the change, which is why we have the program. We could have priced the program really, really cheap but I was like, “No we won’t.” We legitimately wanted to make a plata o plomo moment for everybody. You’ll notice, when the program signup, not everybody who signed up is here today. Some people fell away, some of them left, things happen and I totally understand, but I wanted to make it painful enough that we get people to move. And there are people in this room, I’ve joked about, Nic probably shouldn’t have bought that. If he would have asked I would’ve been like, “No dude, don’t. What are you thinking? Why would you do that?” as a friend this is weird, but I’m so grateful. Are you grateful you did? Nic: Absolutely. Russell: Where’s Marie Larsen, is she still in here? I talked about this in the podcast. She was in the same situation, she should not have signed up for it, it’s insane. I saw this text she sent Steven, she’s like, how much did you have in your bank account when you signed up for it? $70 in the bank account, $1800 a month bill she signed up for. And then it started happening and she was freaking out how it’s going, if you guys haven’t listened to the podcast, Lean In, yet I told the whole story. But it got nervous month one, then month two happened and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I need to leave. I can’t afford this.” And she’s talking with Steven and Steven’s like, “Well, you could leave and walk away, or you could lean in.” so she decided, “Okay, I’m going to lean in.” So she leaned in, and I’ve watched as her business over the last 3, 4, 5, 6 months is growing and it’s growing and it’s growing because she leaned in. Tough times will come, every single time it comes, but those who lean in are the ones who make it through that, and who grow and who build huge businesses.

Welcome to the final segment of this special interview! In this episode you get to hear Russell answer all these interesting questions: Who do you look up to? What is Tony Robbins like? How do you “deal” when things get heavy? What do you sacrifice for success? Is there closure as an entrepreneur? What do you want to be known or remembered for? Russell and Josh chat about all this and much more in the exciting conclusion to this “Atlas Shrugged” interview series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson, and I want to welcome you, first off, to the Marketing Secrets podcast; and, second off, to the last part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. The exciting conclusion. At this time, we'd been going for three-plus hours. I was really, really tired. If I sound like I am kind of out of it, it's because I was probably a little bit out of it. We started the interview at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, so this is probably midnight or so. The night before, I had slept three hours. Or, two nights before, it was three-and-a-half... Three hours and 12 minutes. I remember. I wear an aura ring, so I track my sleep cycle. So, the night before, I slept three hours and 12 minutes. The night before this was, like, five hours. So I was tired. I was worn out. But I still had a lot of fun with it. I think Josh is a great interviewer. And I think that we had a lot of fun talking about all this stuff. So, with that said, you guys, hope you enjoyed this interview series. And, when we come back from the theme song, you have a chance to jump right into the exciting conclusion. Part five of the Atlas Shrugged interview. Josh Forti: So, one of the things you talk about in... Well, actually, expert secrets. But I think they mention it... She kind of mentions it in this book, too... is creating belief by looking up to somebody. And, if you can't see it, if nobody else has done it, then it's hard for people to kind of imagine it and ingrain it. Like, for me, I look up at... I'm like, "Who do I want to be like? What business do I want?" I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like you and your books, I want to be like that type of bit here. And then Katie Richards is another one. Being a powerful person, just in general. Okay, like, these are the people that I look up to, and I'm like, "Okay. That's what I'm going towards." So, for you, who are those people? Like, in your life. That you look up to, and you're like, "Okay, that's it." Because I feel like, the higher you get... And, I mean, you're not all the way up the ladder, right? There's still plenty more. But you're way above where the average person is going to get to. The average person has a lot of people they can look up to. You, there's a lot less options, I feel like. Who are those people that you look up to and go, "Okay, that's who I'm trying to be more like," or, "That's where I learned my lessons from." Russell Brunson: Yeah. There's different parts of my life for different people, too. You know? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I look at the business side, I know the companies I aspire to be like. Salesforce, Shopify, HubSpot. Those are companies that are just like the next tier, but from where we are. That they've crossed the chasm, where we're still trying to figure out how to... That next tier. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think watching them has been... That's when we said we'd go to DreamForce two years in a row, just because I wanted to... And I talked about it, actually, on my podcast. Because when I was out there, it was like... And you need to see it to understand it. Because I remember, when I was wrestling, my dad, my freshman year, took us to the... I had just started wrestling. He took us to the state tournament. I saw this guy on my team win state. And I was like, "That's what I want." Exactly what it was. That'd be my goal. And you see it to do it. So I think for me, those are kind of the businesses that I look up to. People, I mean, Tony... From an influence... Like, people speaking, Tony still, to me, is like... Who's bigger than him, right? Josh: Right, right. Russell: Or better. And the fact I've had a chance to build a friendship with him is really cool, because it's been interesting to see him not on stage. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has a chance to see him on stage, and he's the best in the world on there. But then you see him offstage, and see who he really is. And it's just cool to see that, I don't know, someone who's been doing this for that long, consistently, who still cares, who's still doing this. He doesn't need money, but he still is doing events almost every day of the year, because he wants that. So I think that- Josh: He can stop. Russell: Yeah. And I get it. I have so much respect for that. So I think that's a big thing. Yeah. Just, different areas of life, there's different people. But- Josh: What's it like- Russell: I've tried harder and harder to get closer and closer to him, because I like seeing... I like understanding them, not just from the outside, but understanding from inside. Because it's just a different perspective that you don't get. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. What is it it like? What is Tony like? Russell: Honestly, he's like a little kid. We went to his house, and... I can't talk with details, but he had a slide in his house, and he went down the slide with us, and it just... It was really cool. And we had a chance to go with him and do the meditation thing. And the way he served us, when we were with him at his house, you can tell it's how he wishes he could serve everybody. You know? And that just is hard. Like, you saw him... He's in this room serving us, and he's crying, and you see this emotion. And you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "he would do this for everyone if he could." But he can't. So that's why you do these big scale things. But it's the best way he can do that. But I think, if he could, he would do that for every single human being he could. It's just really... I don't know. It's cool. There's been a lot of situations, when I've been around him, where he could have not... He could have easily, like, turned it off. You know, but it's sincere. He doesn't turn it off. You know what I mean? And I try to be that way as much as I can. And hopefully you've seen, now with me and my kids? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Russell: I try to. And obviously, there's Russell, who's a more introverted, more reserved, and then there’s Russell who’s gonna be like, "Ahh!" But it's still the same... Hopefully. I want to be growing like that. Like, I'd respect him, because he's... In every situation I've seen him, he's always been sincere. Which is not... I can't say that about most people in our industry, and our world. Josh: Yeah. For sure. Russell: Which is unfortunate, because it's just like, "You are..." I remember one time I was in an event, and I heard this guy speak. He was awesome. And he just breaks down crying in the middle of this event, in the middle of the speech. And I was like, "This guy is great." And he got offstage. And he looks at me, and he's like... He said something like, "I pulled out the fake tears again." And I was like, "What?" I remember just feeling like... Ugh. I just felt so sick. How does someone do that and not... He was all proud of it. Like, "Ha," like, "I got them with my..." I just remember feeling so... Just dirty. And I just didn't like that. I was like, "I don't want to be that way. I want to be..." I don't want people saying, like, "Oh, yeah, Russell's different here than here." I don't want people saying that. Josh: Yeah. Like, one consistent person. The same person on and off stage. Russell: Yeah. Josh: There's certain people that... You just know. You meet them, and they're just genuine all the way through. Right? Russell: Mm-hmm Josh: I'm trying to think... Like Catherine Jones, right? For example. She's awesome, right? We had dinner. I had dinner with her, and... Well, God. I had dinner with her, and some friends... Russell: "What am I allowed to say in the podcast?" Josh: Yeah. No, her and some friends, when I was in Utah last. And I've had her as a client. I've watched her speak on stage, in front of... Live. I've had dinner with her. And it's like, it is the same person. Right? Russell: So cool. Josh: And there are people like that. And they're rare. I really do think- Russell: That's what people say. Like, "You never want to meet your mentors, because they're going to disappoint you." Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because of that. Because it's like, "Oh, you put them on this pedestal, and you see them in real life, and you're like... 'Huh. Well. That's disappointing.'" And then it negates all the stuff... That's my biggest thing, is that I don't want somebody who... I gave them something, to help them, and they see me in real life, and it's like, "Oh." It negates- Josh: Yeah! Russell: All you just gave them. Which it does, right? Josh: It really does. Because it takes away the trust factor. Russell: Yeah. And so it's just like... I don't know. Because I think I was nervous meeting Tony the first time. I was like, "What if..." Josh: Yeah, no kidding. Russell: You know? And you see him multiple times, over and over and over, and you're just like, "Cool." It's just neat to see that. Josh: So, what's interesting is, one of my biggest reservations about Tony before... You, and Funnel Hacking Live, was actually the thing that warmed me up to Tony. Because I didn't really know a whole lot... I'd never experienced Tony like I have at Funnel Hacking Live, or anything like that. It's so crazy. You walk into the room when he's talking, and it's like you feel the energy shift. Russell: Nobody on earth has presence like that. Josh: It is insane. Like, everyone tells you about it, but then you don't really believe it until you experience it. And I remember, actually, it was in Orlando. The first time, when he was down there or whatever. And I remember, he came... He was in the room... I was in the room when he entered. And energy, obviously, just like when anybody walks on stage, was quite ramped up. But then he just went into his normal talking. And I remember leaving the room. And, most people, you walk in and you feel it? And I remember opening that door, and shutting it, and like... My whole body shifted. Out of this high energy state, into the low energy state. And I felt like, if I was in that room, I could literally go forever. Right? It was just this nonstop source of energy. But what was interesting about Tony is, Tony doesn't really talk about God. Which is super interesting. Like, I don't know what faith Tony is. And maybe he's talked about it in something about that. And so, for me, one of the biggest struggles that I had... Because, well, growing up, and when I first the house, and when I first got into the entrepreneurship, I, like, really wrestled with God. Right? Especially, you know, going through the death of my brother was actually, ironically, the thing that brought me back to God. But I really, really wrestled with that. And so, for Tony, it was like, he's got all this energy, and he's connecting to this higher source, and he's talking about all these things, but he never... He never ties it to anything. He never gives credit to... Well, in this story I'm telling myself at the time, he's never giving credit to this higher... thing. Like, where does that all come from? And then, the more I got to know Tony... Not personally, but through his work, and through watching his videos, and seeing him at Funnel Hacking Live... I'm like, "I don't know what it is that he believes." I've never sat down... And if I ever get to interview him, I'm absolutely asking him that question. But, whatever that is, I don't think it's possible to be incongruent. Because it's... I don't know! It's not of Earth, almost. It's like you're tapping into something that isn't... In in order to operate at that level, you can't be selfish. Like, you know what I mean? Do you sense that with him at all? Like- Russell: Yeah. And he is, I think... And I'm sure you've seen it before. You talk political, and your audience is cut in half, right? Josh Forti: Yeah. Russell: I think for him, he's traveling such a world-global thing. I mean, Tony is Christian. But it's tough because half the world he speaks to are not Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: And so he... He draws that line, because he doesn't want to alienate people. Because he's like, "I'm here to serve God, and..." Josh: Right. Russell: “God didn’t send me to serve a certain group, it’s to serve everybody.” I think... That's my guess, as to why he doesn't anchor that in as a hard thing. Because his audience is so massive. But he definitely, if you ask him, he definitely knows where it's coming from. You know what I mean? Because, wherever he talks about it, he's... You know, the first time he told me, he's like... It's funny, because I'd experienced this myself, and didn't have words to put to it. Because I come on stage, I have a plan, everything's there. I start talking, and all of the sudden, like, something comes through me? And he's like, "It never comes out the way that I plan, but it always comes out perfect." And he's like, "As long as I follow that, it always just works out perfect." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I've had so many times where I... Again, I start talking about something, I don't know where I'm going. I'm like, "Why am I talking about this?" And then all of the sudden, it's like, "Oh, wow." And there's somebody... Like, that was the thing that- Josh: Connected it. Russell: Shifted it for them. You know what I mean? And I think the more that you tap into that, the more... Again, it comes back to what I talked about before, like, where you do that... God's giving you this thing, and if you have stewardship over it, and you use it, he'll give it to you more and more. And Tony, now, who's been doing it for 40 years... Josh: It's actually super interesting you say that. So, literally, every Tuesday, I meet with Katie. Right? And we have our one-on-one call, and we talk for an hour. And one of the topics of conversation was, I was like, "Katie..." We were actually talking about getting ready for this interview. I was like, "I don't feel nervous. At all." Right? And I'm like, "And I'm getting so many texts and DMS or whatever, like, 'Oh my gosh, are you nervous? What if you mess up?'” And, so many… So many different things, right? And I'm like, "I don't feel any of that. I feel like this is just like, 'All right, cool. I'm flying out to Russell. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be great. We're gonna go.'" And I'm like, "So, why is everybody else telling me I should be nervous? Right? Like, why is that a thing?" One of the things that she said was like, "Being who you are, being your person, knowing yourself, and, like, doing this..." But one of the things that we talked about was some of the things that you have to accept by faith. And I was really wrestling with this idea of, like, "Am I supposed to be prepared?" Am I? Russell voxed me and was like, "This is the first interview he's ever prepared for." I'm like, "I just read the book. I don't have any notes prepared for him! I'm just gonna show up and talk, right? That's what I do." And she's like, "But that's your superpower. That-" And sometimes you have to just have faith. And she's like, "You prepare 80% of the way, and leave the 20% up to God." And she's like, "And most people are not going to understand that. And, for a lot of people, that's going to freak it out." But she's like, "How many times have you prepared something 100%, you knew every word you were going to say?" And I'm like, "Very little." She's like, "Well, think back to one of the times that you did." I'm like, "Okay," and she's like, "How'd it go? I was like, "Well, terrible! Literally. It was some of my worst presentations. The most prepared I come, the biggest it'll flop." Right? And she's like, "And the least you prepare sometimes, you just walk in confidently and you do your best, turns out amazing." Yeah. Because that's what Tony's talking about, like, "It just comes over you." It's like, if you have faith that, when you show up and become... You are the best version of yourself. You show up the most prepared you can be. And you just fully embrace that, and have faith in the rest? God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, I feel like it just works the rest of it out. You know what I mean? Russell: Understood. Yeah. That's why, before I do anything, I pray before. I prayed before this call. Or, what's it called? Before this interview, before I step on stage every single time. Because a big part of it's like... Without that, what good are your words? You know what I mean? If you're doing it with the Spirit, with God... Whatever you want to call it, you know? For me, it's the Spirit. If you're with the Spirit, then it'll touch people, in a way that you can't just by your words alone. And so I always ask that, and I look for help. And I remember, I think Steven Larson, the first time he was working for me, we did our first event in the room over here. And I remember, before I would do the events myself, he started working for me. And I was in the back here. And I was saying a prayer, and he walked in. He's like, "Oh, sorry!" He's like, "That's cool." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "You pray before you go out there." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not going out there by myself!" Like, you know? I'm not that good. So, I need help, and it shows up when you... pray. Josh: All right, I have two questions that I want to ask you, before we kind of go to rapid-fire, to kind of bring this to a close. I don't know. We could probably go all night, but... Russell: You just want us to keep going all night? Or you want us to go to bed? Josh: How much longer do we go for? Are you guys liking this? Comment down below. Let us know. Give some feedback. Do you like it? Do you not like it? What are your thoughts? We've been going for about three hours. And I figured, at least, it was going to go at least this long. Russell: I guarantee there's going to be some of you guys who are like, "I agree with everything," to be like, "I agree with half," or to be like, "I don't understand what they're saying. I agree with nothing." So- That's okay. There's nothing... Again, our goal was not to motivate, was not to try to convince you guys of anything. That's not my goal. Our goal was to flesh out these ideas, and hopefully you guys come on the journey, and get some cool ideas from it, and see how perceive life. I think what's fascinating is everybody has such a different perspective on life. And so many times, when we hear somebody else's perspective, we get offended. And it's like, "What if you didn't get offended, and just listened to their perspective?" And maybe you don't listen to everything, but you're like, "Oh. I'm going to take that, and that. Those are two things that were really cool for me." Just don't pay attention to the rest of it. Right? Because I'm sure, if you paid attention to everything that we both said, you probably got offended at least 12 times. But if you're just like, "I'm just going to take the gold that's good for me, and then leave everything else on the side," you got a dozen amazing things that you can use, hopefully. So. Josh: All right. And so my next question is, who are you voting for? No, I'm just kidding. Russell: Ugh. Actually, last year, I don't... Four years ago... So, I'm a big Jack Bauer fan, and I bought "Jack Bauer for president" shirts. And then, that whole day, I was Instagramming and Facebooking, "I'm writing in Jack Bauer! I'm writing in Jack Bauer!" And I would have if he was a real human. But, anyway. Josh: That's funny. Who was I just... Oh, Leah, I was talking to her on the way, as we were driving to the airport. We were talking about Joe Rogan. And, because Joe Rogan is... It's so funny, because people... Like, Trump retweeted one of his tweets. And Joe Rogan's a big liberal, right? Like, he even said he was going to vote for Bernie, before Biden became the nominee. And so I feel like a lot of Trump supporters, are like, "Yeah, Joe Rogan's a Trump fan!" Like, Joe Rogan is not a Trump fan. That's not at all what it is. And so we were like, "Well, who do you think he's going to vote for?" And I was like, "If I was a betting man, I would bet that he votes for Kanye. That he wrote him in." Because he does this three-hour interview. And Kanye answers... If you watch the interview... I mean, I know it's three hours of your time, and you'll probably never get to it. But it is a fascinating interview. And he asked... Because he keeps trying to bring Kanye back to like, "If you were president, what would you do?" Because Kanye is like, "I'm going to be president. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," right? Like, "If I don't win this year, I'm going to for sure win in 2024." Kanye, I love your confidence. But anyway, so, Kanye answers these questions completely differently. And so, anyway. I don't want to run with that. But, my real question for you... So, you can go long on these, or we can go rapid-fire questions on them. Either way. Atlas Shrugged. Got the world on his shoulders. You feel that. How do you deal with that responsibility? Because I'm sure there's been times, I know in my own life, with my three to five little people that I'm managing, and some contractors, I'm like, "Oh my gosh! If I have to take one more thing, I'm just going to explode!" Right? Like, if we don't... So how do you, how do you deal with that pressure, and not... One of the things that I've had to learn how to do is, I don't know if anger is the right word, but deal with not taking out my frustration on somebody else. Right? Like, God bless Leah. She knows me super, super well. And like she knows the moods where it's like, "Don't ask him a question." Like, "Avoid it, and let him cool off," because if you say the wrong thing right now, I'm just going to inadvertently take it out on her. And I've had to learn how to balance that and communicate that. How do you deal with all that pressure, and still... You've got 400 people looking up to you. I know you don't talk to them everyday, but that's a lot. Russell: Yeah. That's just employees. And you have the community, and... Josh: Right. Russell: Yeah, it gets heavy. A lot. And I think it's funny, because, as you read the book, you know, Atlas Shrugged and walked away from the thing... Josh: Right. Russell: And I think for me, I don't want to walk away. You know what I mean? I don't think... That's a big thing. And I think, because the first part is, I was thinking about it, that... Because I'm a big believer that this, for me, is a calling. It's a mantle. This is what I've been called to do at this time in my life. And since, as heavy as it gets... Like, man, think about other people in a different time who had to carry a burden they didn't want to lift, right? There's tons of them. So I think about that a lot. I reached out to other people who were producers, who I know have heavy... You can ask Garrett White. Every time I'm stressing out to the max, I text Garrett, and I'm like, "Hey, man. Life's heavy. Just thinking about you." And he always sends back something about, like, "Dude, do you realize how you've changed my..." just things like that, that just... It's just like, "Okay, it's worth it. Thank you." And then, in Voxer, whenever someone voxes me something, it's like, this success story of, like, "Dude, just so you know, blah, blah, blah." And on Voxer, you can star things. So I have a whole starred menu of all the people that have told me how the fact that I'm carrying this has changed their life. So I'll listen to those, and I'll listen to four or five or six of them. And eventually, when I hear those things, it gets lighter. And so that's a big thing, for me, is just that... Dave, one of my... I'm not sure if Dave's still here or not. But Dave's one of my best friends. Josh: Is he still here? Russell: No. Josh: Dave. Russell: One of my favorite humans. Yeah. And now he's... Anyway. You know, he's carrying a lot of pressure, now, too. Dave... I don't know if you knew this... Dave is the CEO now of ClickFunnels. He's taking over a huge part of my responsibility. And he's carrying out- Josh: Oh, he's into the CEO role? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Or, is he? Or he's moving into it? Russell: He is. Officially, now, yeah. Internally. And he's... Josh: Congratulations, Dave. Russell: And, looking back now, something I should have done five years ago. He's so much better than me at... Than I am. But I see him, I see Todd, I see that people on our team who are carrying weight. And having other people that you're doing this with, besides yourself, helps a lot. So I think that's a big part of it, too, is just... I don't know. If it was just me, like that, eventually I think I'd shrug and walk away. But I know that there's a dozen other people all holding that up as well, and that helps a lot as well, because you know you're not in it alone. I always tell Dave, I'm like, "Man, if I was going to war, I would bring you. Just because I want you in the trenches with me. You know what I mean?" And knowing that I'm not in it alone helps a lot. So I think a lot of times, it's those things. When you're where, when you're doing it by yourself, that's when it gets hard. I try to not... And I think our default human thing is to isolate, and take the pressure and pain. And just for me, as an introvert, I'd rather isolate. But I try, specifically when it gets heavy, just to, like, "Okay, I can't isolate, or I'm going to just get crushed." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I reach out, and that helps me a lot to be able to sustain stuff. Josh: Next rapid-fire question, if you will. Success takes sacrifice. So, in managing ClickFunnels, obviously you love it. But what things are you not able to do, or do you wish you were able to do more of, that you are not able to because of the role that you play in ClickFunnels? Russell: Yeah. Stuff like this. I feel bad. There's so many people who ask for podcast interviews and things like that. People that I would love to do it with, but just there's not enough time. I miss... When we were first growing ClickFunnels, and starting it, I just remember coming in in the mornings, and being like, "What should we do today?" And thinking about it, and brainstorming. I miss that part. Now you come in, and it's like, "All right, there's 8,000 things you got to do." And it's like, "Okay," and I miss those parts of it. I don't know, I miss... Not being able to turn it off, but I think... I don't know, it would be nice... I think it's Alex Charfen, I'm thinking about. Like, "You don't want to run off into the white wood." There's times where... And this is dorky. This is the cheesiest thing. Remember watching the last... Endgame? Avengers Endgame. Josh: Oh, yeah. Russell: And, at the end, when Iron Man dies, and... What's her name? Pepper Potts. When she's like, "You can rest now." I remember hearing that, and I was just like... I actually started crying. I was just like, "I feel like I want to rest sometime. I don't know how, or when, or-" I desire that. I don't know how, because there's so much stuff and so many things. And I think, I don't know, I long for that moment. Where it's just like, whatever the... Like at the end of the Bootstrap book. I don't know where or when that happens, but- Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: If there's ever a time where it's just like, "Oh. We did it." Like, it's weird, because in wrestling, there was a thing where you get your hand raised, and then you get to rest. Business, I haven't found that. Like, it's just this constant thing. Where you have victories and stuff, but you never... Again, wrestling is like, you'd cut weight a week, you'd train, you'd practice, and you'd go out there, head-to-head. You wrestle. You get a hand-raise, you go out to eat, and you relax. You sleep that weekend. Monday, you get back to work. I don't feel like, in business, there's ever been that. Like, "Ah." Josh: Do you think it exists? Russell: I don't know. I assume when people sell a business there's some of that, but most people I know that have sold a business... It's harder. Because it's like someone else is taking your thing that your identity is tied to. So that scares me too. And so I don't know. That's something, I don't know if it's like... Is it when I die that I'm like, "Ah." Like Iron Man? I don't know... I don't know. Some day. I desire that. I don't know how to get it, but that's something I'm looking at. How do you get that? How do you get that release you get, where you're just like, "Ah, I did a good job." I think Funnel Hacking Live is probably the closest to that? Josh: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Russell: Right after it ends? But then also, sometimes... Like two years ago, and it's semi-controversial, and I got blown up for, like, three or four days. And I remember I was like, "This sucks!" Like, "I just killed myself, and now I'm defending myself for three days because of some other speaker who said something that I wish they wouldn't have, but they did, and..." And, yeah. Some of the things like that are hard, but, huh. Anyway. Josh: Are we having Funnel Hacking Live this year? Or, next year, I guess? Russell: Some version of it, yeah. We're in a contract battle with Nashville, where we've done it the last two years. I was just to go there again this year. It typically takes us nine months, for Funnel Hacking Live. Obviously, because of everything, we haven't. We're three months out from when it was supposed to be, and there's no way I can fill it in time. Plus, I don't think we were going to come do there. And so we're trying to push that contract for another year, and then doing a hybrid, something in between. So far, we haven't even got the contract, which is... Anyway. So, something will happen. And I'm dying to not announce it yet, because I don't have finality yet. But some version of Funnel Hacking Live- Josh: What? You mean you can't break something right here, live, at- Russell: I've tried my best! To- Josh: 1:00 in the morning, Eastern time? Russell: We'd love to do some kind of hybrid... Something. Essentially, because I spoke at Tony's thing, where he had the big internet… Josh: Yeah. How was that? Russell: It was really cool. And hard. Because, at first, you come out, and you're in this room, and there's faces everywhere, like, "Ah! That's amazing!" But you're speaking at an event. You shift, and you're looking at different people, which is fun. Here, if you look at people, it looks like you're talking like this. So you have to look at the camera. So, you have a million faces everywhere, and you have to look right here? And you can't- Josh: Oh my God! Russell: And everyone's doing weird things, and so it's kind of hard. Because you're like, I have to look here, or else it looks like I'm not connected to you. But there's so much happening that I want to... It was- Josh: Oh. That's crazy. Russell: It was almost... I don't know if "Dizzy" is the right word, but something that we were just like... It was different. It was hard to get used to. But, anyway, he's building a new place that's three times as big. We're just going to have a hybrid, where half is at... half's the stadium. He said something interesting. He's like, "This year is the year of virtual. Next year is the year of hybrid." So I'm trying to figure out our version of that. And I don't know what that is yet. Josh: Hybrid being part live, part... Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Because I never wanted to make Funnel Hacking Live virtual, ever. Because… it’s this thing. But I also want to make it... Yeah, anyway. So, I'm hoping. I'm hoping the next couple weeks have some finality on that contract, so we can start the next... Whatever the process looks like. So it'll be some version of 2021, for sure. Josh: Cool. Russell: Where people who want to travel will be able to travel. Josh: All right. Awesome. Two more questions. Russell: Okay. Josh: One: what is one thing that people don't know about you? What's a Russell Brunson thing that is a pretty defined part of who you are that people don't really know? Russell: I'm public about everything... Josh: Are you, though? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. Have you learned anything by me since you've been here in our... Josh: Yeah, a couple of things. Russell: Really? Josh: Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah. More from your wife, though. Yeah. She's told... Russell: She's telling you all the good stuff. Josh: Also, your kids are fascinating. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. I talked to them for probably 10, 15 minutes. Russell: My kids are the coolest. I think my biggest fear in life is that I am not going to be the dad that they need. You know what I mean? I don't know. He's going to be like... I don't know. Being a parent's way harder than I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be amazing at it. I'm like, "I can influence thousands of people at once," but the person you care about and love the most? And same to my wife. I think those are my biggest fears. I don't want to mess up the family. And it's weird because, again, it's like all my super powers are like my kryptonite in a family. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so I think I struggle with that a lot of times, where it's just like, "Nah, I'm such a good communicator." I think. Communicating messages. And I struggle communicating with people I love the most. So I think that's it, I think. I am scared to death of cats and dogs. I will not touch them. Josh: Really? Russell: Yeah. I won't touch any animal. They're disgusting to me. And I'm allergic to cats, but the way it came about is, when I was in high school, the girl I was dating, she had a cat, and they went out of town. She's like, "You can watch my cat." And I was like, "Okay." So I came in, and the cat's rubbing against me, so I was petting it, because I'm like... I'd never had an animal before, right? And I'm petting it. And my eyes swole shut. For three days. Three days later, they finally opened again, and the white part was all blood-red. And I don't trust animals since then. You can watch me. My in-laws have cats. I walk in the house, and I stand there. I won't sit on the couches, because I'm like... Because I break out an allergies. If like a dog runs up to me, everyone... You'll see I've kind of turned my... Like, "Don't touch me." Anyway, I don't like animals. Unless you can eat them. So there's something people probably don't know about me. Josh: There you go! Who would've guessed, who would've guessed. All right. Last question. Final question. And I asked this to you... I think I have asked this to you before, but now we're here. We're in person. And we're going to talk. I want you to fast-forward to the end of your life, when you are on your deathbed, and I want you to... All your money, and success, and fame, and influence it's all gone. But you've influenced a lot of people. And you get to leave them with a final message that kind of defines... not what you took away from life, but like the message that you feel like you should put on to some... Pass on, for generations to come. What would you want to be defined by? What would you want that message to be, for people to remember you by? Russell: Cool... And I'm hoping... Honestly, my biggest hope. I'm hoping that when we die, we go to our maker. I'm hoping that we get a glimpse of what our life actually did. You know, like the ripple effect? Josh: Fascinating. Russell: You know It's A Wonderful Life? Josh: Yeah. Russell: When he sees what it was like, before and after? I'm hoping all of us get that experience. Because you have no idea what you're actually doing with it. But I'm sure what we're all doing is... Anyway, I'm praying that we get that moment, because that would be... Anyway. I think my message that I- Josh: That would be so cool. Russell: Yeah. Can you imagine that? Josh: Yeah. That'd be wild. Russell: Yeah. Josh: We need to do a podcast just about our faith. That'd be cool. That'll be our next one. Russell: Okay. That'd be fun. Josh: Next one, I'll fly out here for, and we'll just do it, just about- Russell: That'd be fun. Josh: Just about God, and faith. All right. Russell: That'd be fun. But I think for my message, I would leave it as, I think that... Again, just to tie back to what we talked about initially, I think a lot of us start these businesses, or start whatever we're trying to do, whatever we're called to do, you start initially out of greed, right? It's natural, man. We have these desires that make us want to do stuff, right? And I think for me, when I first got started in this business, I just thought it was to make money, and all these kind of things. And I saw, even when it started having an impact, I mean, "This is cool, this is cool." But it wasn't until... I had a coach a few years ago. She's amazing. And I remember she asked me about what I think God thinks about my business. I'm like, "Why would He care about this?" He cares about how I'm living my life, and I'm keeping to the Commandments and stuff, but why would He care about this?" She's like, "Don't you see it?" And I'm like, "See what?" She's like, "You don't see what He's... Who you've become? His hand in your life?" And it never had crossed my mind. And she started helping me understand, like, "This thing that you're doing is not just to make money. This is a calling. This is literal... This is a calling. You were called of God to do this thing, and the ripple effect, and people's lives you're changing... Even though you're helping people to start businesses, build funnels, it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. Because it frees people, and then they can change people's lives. And the ripple effect is huge." And she helped me understand that day, in such a profound way, that just these things that we're doing, it's a literal calling from God. I think if I was on my deathbed, I would want people to know, like, when you feel that tug, or that nudge, that thing that starts you on this journey, that's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fun. Oh, I'll make some money," or whatever. It's literally God giving you something. This is your stewardship. Do something with it. See what it is. I think, if you realize that... Since I've realized that, it's been different. Now that I know that, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to run as hard as I can. Because this is not just an idea I had. This is a gift." And it's like these tests, like, "What am I going to do with this?" And then when you look at it from that lens, it's like, man, you can do and create... You have more faith in yourself, because it's not yourself, right? I get scared every time I get on stage. I got nervous before this. Like I get... "You're probably confident, because you're on the stage in front of 35,000 people." No! I freak out in front of, like, 20 people! I get so nervous. But I'm like, "I know that I can do it, because this is a calling that was given. And He's not going to give me something that I can't do." And so I think that, if I could help people understand that... I don't know the right way to articulate it, but I think if everybody understood that, how real that actually is, it'd make you run harder, make you work harder, and make you braver, and make you have more courage, more... All the things you need to get that message out. Because you were called. It is a literal calling. And you're probably not worthy of it yet? Like, when you get it, you're not worthy. Like they say, "He qualifies, so he calls," right? You're not qualified right now, but the act of you moving forward is what qualifies you, and what prepares you for the calling. And I think that, if people understood that, man, people would focus so much less on themselves and on their situation and just, like, "All right. Here's the baton. Run." Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You're now gonna start running. And you would do it with perfect faith, because you know it's from somebody beside yourself. And I think if people understood that and believed, it would change everything. Josh: Russell. Thank you so much, man. Russell: Yeah, man. Josh: This was so much fun. Russell: It is fun. Josh: I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. Russell: How long do we have to do... Where are we at? Josh: We're at three hours and 18 minutes. Russell: Dang. And we're still here? Josh: Three hours 20 minutes. Yeah. Russell: Dang, a lot of people still here. Josh: Yeah. I've got... Yeah. Quite a bit. Russell: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming all the way out here for this. It was cool. Josh: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And- Russell: Oh, and we have the comments now. Josh: What do you guys think of the interview? Yes? Good, bad? Thumbs up? Rate it! On a scale from 1 to 10. On a scale from 1 to 10, give us a rating. 1 to 10. Russell: "I used to think Russell was cool, but now I think he's crazy," or, "I used to think Russell was crazy, now I think he's cool." I'm good with all those things. I'm just curious. Josh: Russell, God bless you. God bless your wisdom and mission. Look at this. Thank you so much. This is amazing. Russell: Smileys are here. What's up, Smileys? Josh: Let's go, let's go. What's up, James Smiley? Great stuff. Awesome. I love it, I love it. I could do... A 1000. We got a 1000 out of 10. Russell: Dang! Josh: That's pretty darn good. Russell: It is really good. Josh: 12? 12 out of 10. Russell: Oh, so fun. Josh: Brent? what's up, man? All right, we're going to have to do this again. Sometime when we can sit down and talk about God. That one, we're really gonna have to get prepped for it. Oh, do you know Nick Robbins? Russell: Not off the top of my head. Josh: All right. He's kind of in the ClickFunnels world? He ran an agency, sold it, but still remained a partner, and then got bored, and then came back into it? Anyway. So he and I had, I think, a three-and-a-half-hour conversation about God. So, it's interesting, because he and I actually have a lot of similar beliefs, but he doesn't believe in God. So he's like, "Yeah, I think there's something out there, and it's something intelligent," or whatever. And so we had a... He uses language. And I don't, typically. And so we had all this big, long, huge debate. So, and we've gone there and said that. Russell: That's fun. Josh: Yeah. So. Russell: I think one of the most fascinating conversations I ever had was with Howard Berg, the world's fastest reader? That guy's, like, 30,000... Josh: Yeah. Oh, that's right! He came here, didn't he? Russell: Yeah. A couple of times, since we've hung out. He's read 30,000 books. I was like, "I can ask this guy any question I want." And so I asked him. I was like, "What's your opinion on God?" And I remember he told me, he said... Because, again, religion usually causes fights. Because, like, "Well, I believe-" you know, and it's so cool, because he's like, "Well, most people read one book, and then they base their belief in God on this one book." He's like, "I've read..." I can't remember what it was... "Like, 1,200 books on God, from every perspective." And he's like, "Based on that, this is what I believe." It was just so cool to see that, I think. And I feel like all of us, instead of us being like, "This is my way, this is my way." It's like, just hear... Even if you completely... I completely disagree with so many people's opinion, but I still hear it. Because, again, why do they believe that? There's something. There's a reason why they believe that. I want to understand that. And, anyway. And it's just so interesting. Josh: That's my big thing. My big thing is like... And that's one of the hardest things, for mem is figuring out... My beliefs are always changing. That's probably reason I started the podcast. I just wanted to talk to people. Right? Like, if I'm wrong... I'm so excited whenever someone comes in and is like, "You're wrong, and here's why!" And I'm like- Russell: "Sweet!" Josh: "Oh my gosh! Thank you so much! I know what I'm onto next! Yes!" Right? Where everybody else is like, "I don't want to be wrong. What are they-" I'm like, "If somebody comes in and proves my idea wrong..." Like, my ideas are pretty thought-through. And I'm a really thought-through person. I know why I believe what I believe, not just what I believe. Right? So if somebody can come along and challenge that? That's one of the things that is so attractive to me about Leah. Leah was smart. She challenged even beliefs that she maybe even agreed with. She'd play the devil's advocate, and change, and challenge it. And I'm like, "that's what I like. I want to grow and expand like that." So, anyway. Russell: Yeah. That's awesome. Josh: We'll have to come back and do that, so. All right. Russell. Thank you so much, man. Super, super appreciate it. Guys, as always. Hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. And who knows? You might just end up in a chair next to Russell Brunson. So, that'd be awesome. Guys, as always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. Those of us that think different are going to change the world. By using funnels! And other stuff. Russell: Yeah! Josh: I love you all. And I will see you on the next live stream episode. Take it easy, man. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: Peace!

Welcome back to the 4th part of this interview series. We are getting near the end and the topics keep getting more interesting. In this episode you hear them talk about the influence their parents had on their lives in business. If they feel misunderstood as entrepreneurs and how their ability to communicate might be able to change that. Russell explains how he realizes that Clickfunnels is a team effort and that’s what help him stay so grounded. Then they discuss what each liked most about the Atlas Shrugged book and what character they each associate with most. So tune into part 4 of this exciting interview! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. All right. I hope you guys have enjoyed the first three. We are moving into the fourth episode of our interview. My interview with Josh Forti talking about Atlas Shrugged. Again, during this series, we've been talking about religion and politics and all the things you're not supposed to talk about, but we've done it all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, which I hope you've enjoyed and had a lot of fun with it. Hopefully it's made you want to go and actually read the Atlas Shrugged book, which I think would be really, really cool. With that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song. When we come back, you have a chance to start listening to part four of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: So, what did your parents do right for you? One of the things that I try to say, I try to say it a lot but I don't even say it enough. My parents have played a absolutely tremendous... I owe so much of who I am today to my parents indirectly in a lot of ways. My parents didn't teach me about money or things like that. That wasn't their gift, but the principles of hard work and family values, biting your tongue, even though it doesn't seem like I bite my tongue. Oh my gosh. Every day, right? Russell Brunson: It could be worse guys. Josh: Right. It could be way worse. Some people would love that, but you know, deescalating situations and having those... I owe so much of who I am to those. Yeah, they messed up in a lot of ways like you said, but what were some of the things that your parents did right? What are the things that you remember from your parents? Russell: Yeah. I love my parents. I was very blessed with my parents, for sure. I don't think my dad was super engaged when we were younger just because he was in the phase where, like trying to figure things out and make money. It was different back then. Josh: Is he an entrepreneur? Russell: Yeah. He also had a job, but he did side business so he was always trying to figure things out. I saw him doing these things. I saw the job he didn't love and then I saw him doing stuff he did love and I watched him work really hard. Then when I started wrestling, I saw my dad... That became the thing that me and him connected with which meant the world to me and it was so important to him. What's cool was that my dad showed up to every wrestling practice. He came to every single match. His day job was State Farm insurance, he built up his book of business where by the time I was wrestling, he was able to take off as much as he wanted. It ran itself and he was making money and had residual income. I remember my dad was the only one, as soon as wrestling practice got done, my dad would walk in and we would do practice afterwards. Never missed a match. He was always there. I remember just thinking, I want to make sure I have a business or something like my dad was for me. That was so important to me. Like I said, he wasn't super around when we were younger and I think he struggled because of the younger kids, which I understand. That phase in my life, he was there and my best friend and it was just, it was awesome. I love that and I've been trying to have my kids now. Especially at times where maybe I wasn't as good of a dad, I was too busy. I'm trying to connect more. That was my dad for sure. Then my mom, for me she was just... I wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser but I'm very much an achiever. I think when I started wrestling and I saw my dad got closer to me and then I got a win and I saw him get excited, I wanted to win because I wanted to impress my dad. To this day, I think I still have that. Part of the reason I'm in this business and I'm doing stuff is I love when my dad sees it. There's something, I love impressing him. To this day I love that win. With my mom, she loved me even when I didn't win. that was something that was so foreign to me. I remember I'd be cutting away for wrestling, I hadn't eaten for three days. I'd be so tired, so miserable. She'd come down and sneak in my room, bringing me food. I'm like, "Mom, I can't eat. I'm not going to make weight." She's like, "Why don't you just quit then? You don't need to do this." She was the opposite of my dad. She loved me no matter what and didn't care that I was trying to win or succeed. Couldn't care less. She loved me just because I was me. That was weird but so cool as well. It's both those principles, it's something I've tried to weave in. I've got two different sides I'm trying to weave that into my kids. Again, so far from perfect, but I think those are the two things that meant the world to me, that I'm super grateful for them those things for me because I still remember those things now. Josh: So there is... Which by the way, that's awesome. There's a lot of people in this world that are growing up without a dad, without a mom. It's interesting because I think a lot of my social media posts, I kind of come across sometimes like the heartless a-hole, you know what I mean? A little bit, they're like, "Josh!" You know what I mean? You talk about, take personal responsibility for your life, everybody can do anything. If you're broke it's your fault, that's one of my favorite sayings. If you're broke in America it's your fault, right? They're like, "Josh, you don't understand. You grew up and your parents are still married. Not only do you have parents, they're still together and they still actually love each other." It's not even necessarily they're still together. You're like a percentage of the percentage of the percentage in a lot of ways. I don't even know what question I'm asking you, but what would you do? Where could somebody find that? What can we do as a society or just as entrepreneurs, as producers to help those people? I feel like that's a really big need. Russell: For sure. Josh: One of my big struggles with this is I always want to point it back to the church. I had a really awakening, come-to-Jesus moment back when I posted, this is probably a month ago or so. I posted it on Instagram actually. I think you liked it, actually, so I know you saw it. I said, "Defund the media, defund fear, defund career politicians. Fund orphanages, churches and schools." I posted it on Facebook and I posted it on Instagram, and I was shocked at how many people were like, "Dude. Fund the churches? They're a bunch of pedophile people there too." So many people had such this negative view of the church. I grew up in the church, that's what I knew. How I knew how family works is because I saw our own family and then I saw the church family and I saw the community and how the church was involved in the community. The church that I went to, after I moved out Grable, Indiana, I worked three doors down from it and that's where people went to vote was in their gym. And the fair, that's where people parked. The church was such an integral part... that word, a part of the community. So when I saw all these people that had this negative view of the church, that broke my heart because that was my solution. There are so many things. Like, if you don't have a dad, you can go to the church. If you don't have this, you can go to the church. Said, "What?" If that's your answer, that's cool, but how can we as producers of society and the people that are going out there and making the money, how can we help those that don't have what you and I had? Russell: It's interesting. What Mormons believe is the family is the central everything. That's God's plan. Husband and wife starts a family. That's an eternal principle, right? If you look at the adversary, Satan, whatever you want to call him, his job, if he can destroy the family, everything falls apart. That's the war we're in right now. We think we're in a lot of different wars. The war we are in is, Satan is attacking families. That's it. Josh: Okay. I want you to finish this, I have to say this though. Guys, and this is not Russell saying this, this is me. This is why I hate the Black Lives Matter organization. Not movement, the organization so much. Because, their whole principle is bragging about the traditional family values. Anyway, I'm not speaking for Russell. Russell: Yeah, if you Google "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," you'll see my beliefs on family. We have it printed out eight foot on my wall in my house. That's my belief. Family is central, everything. So, Satan, the way he destroys societies and nations and this world is, destroy the family. So when you see families are broken, they're single mothers and single fathers, it's heartbreaking. I think it's the saddest thing in the world. I don't know the right way to solve it. I do know that it's vitally important. I remember first time I met Tony Robbins and started learning from him, one of the principles he talked about in relationships is masculine, feminine energy. The masculine and feminine is key to a relationship. I could go on for four hours just on masculine and feminine. Oh, that's the most fascinating topic in the world. If you ever see how Tony fixes relationships, you look at the traditional view of traditional counseling, there's a problem. They're like, "What's the symptom of the problem?" They try to solve the symptom of the problem and counseling takes years because it's a symptom of the problem. All the issues, they're all symptoms of problems. The real problem is when there's a masculine and a feminine, and it doesn't matter. Again, this is true with gay, straight, doesn't matter. Feminine, masculine energy. You take a masculine and a feminine and that polar opposite, that magnetism, magnetize together, right? That's what creates attraction, passion, everything. What happens is you have a masculine and feminine, they're attracted together. That's how you start. That's how any relationship starts. Right? Then you look at people getting married. It was interesting because what Tony talked about, he said you look at typically in a relationship, there's what they call the seven-year itch, and why is that? He talks about the way the feminine causes change is... Some day I want to write a book on this. I don't know perfectly enough to- Josh: Russell needs to become a writer. My word… Russell: Yeah, I've got a lot of books to write. But, this is how it works in traditional marriage. Masculine and feminine. What happens is one of the ways that feminine causes change is they criticize, right? I see this with my wife, with friends, with girls. If they want their friend to change their hair they don't say, "Hey, you should get a haircut." They'll criticize to try to cause change. Right? What happens is that a feminine- Josh: Yo, wow. That's so true. Interesting stuff. Russell: Yeah. That's just one example of- Josh: Dave! Russell: Feminine… Josh: Right, right. Russell: So, feminine and masculine come together. This is just an example. They'll start criticizing the man, but a masculine man doesn't care, it bounces off him. Like, "Okay. Okay." Right? What happens after seven years of that happening? Eventually instead of it balancing off of you, which is the masculine response, you start taking it personally. Like, "Oh." As soon as you take it personally, guess what happens? You are shifting physically from your masculine into a feminine. You start shifting and what happens is you shift from masculine to feminine and boom, the attraction breaks, and it starts falling apart. And then all the other problems start happening. The problem isn't solving the fact that you leave the toilet seat up or that you don't communicate well. The problem is that the masculine-feminine attraction is broken. If you fix the masculine and feminine, you can make men become men and women become women. Attraction comes back, all the other symptoms disappear. It's fascinating. That's from a marriage, family, relationship standpoint. Josh: Okay. I want to- Russell: I'm telling this because I want to talk about this from the family with kids in a minute, but yes. Josh: Okay. But I want you to now give me another example that Tony Robbins has said, because what you made it sound like there is that the way the woman does something is the thing that's causing the bond. I know that's not what you meant. Russell: Oh, it could be, yeah. That's- Josh: I just wanted to do that clarification. Russell: It's the same thing with the men where the men are responding over and over, where women now become defensive and they become more masculine and it's the other way. Yeah. Sorry. That's not the only example. I was just- Josh: Right. Russell: The one- Josh: I just wanted to make sure we clarify that because I know thing's have been taken out of context before. Russell: Somebody is going to be angry at me. I apologize. I'm stupid. I get it. But conceptually, does that make sense? It's the break of the masculine and feminine that causes the split, which causes the disharmony. And if you bring the masculine and feminine together, I think that's what causes attraction and causes passion and causes all these things. I look at my life when we were struggling in our marriage, it's because I'm showing up feminine. When I show masculine, everything's great. Where my wife comes in masculine and I'm masculine, we butt heads, it's fascinating. Anyway, I don't want to get deep into this because there's so much stuff. There's another show on this, because you look at this thing. You've got a family and the mother and father split and then there's kids who go with either the mother or the father, and now what they have is they've got either a very masculine person they're learning from or feminine, but they don't see both. And so it shifts them and it shifts their relationship. So many problems. I think the way we help the most, or can help the most is... Hormozi does this. Alex Hormozi does this. He donates his money to... Do you remember the name of the charity? He got our first Two Heart award. It's afterschool kids. These kids, like men who... There's these kids trying to play basketball or lift weights or whatever, who don't have masculine energy in their life. They come and they donate their time and they help the kids to brig masculinity. All of us, we need male and female perspectives. Josh: Right. Russell: It's designed to have those things together. When you lose one of them, it's a tragedy. I think the way we can start helping is, how do we bring programs where they can see masculine energy and see the way to make it a positive and not a negative thing? A lot of times, all they know is masculine energy left and oftentimes there's a lot of anger between the people. They hear talking trash about the spouse and talking trash about these traits which are traits that are essential for them to develop. I don't know. I don't know if that's the right answer or not, but I feel like that's how we could help those things. Help them understand, like the kids who don't have a father or a mother. They need that energy in their life to understand it, to be able to... I don't know. Josh: Okay. This is seemingly unrelated to this, but I think that I can tie it back in because it's a question that I think fits in here. I'm going to start with a super-basic question, which I think the answer is obvious, but we'll go down this road. Do you feel misunderstood as an entrepreneur? Russell: I did early on, less so now. Josh: Why is that? Russell: When I was got started... Entrepreneurship has become more of a cool thing in the last decades. Since Shark Tank and stuff. Back when I first started it wasn't. Everyone was confused. Like, "Why would you do that?" It is cooler. Also, I think the more you talk, the more you either alienate people or you attract people, and I think a lot of the people who I have alienated have been alienated and I think they are attracted by attractive. So my bubble of people around me are people who understand this lingo, who relate to it. So it's less hard now than it was initially. Josh: I believe that one of my superpower... Your superpower, your art, your format is marketing and funnels, funnels specifically. That's what you do. I feel you could just sit there for hours and hours and days and forever for the rest of, all of time. Russell: Yes. I love it. Josh: My superpower thing that I like to do is this. Communication. I love constructing words in a way that people can understand. I'm sure not, but the Kanye West interview that Joe Rogan just did three days ago. Russell: I've heard about him… Josh: This has been a long awaited episode. No one thought it was ever going to happen because it was teased and it wasn't, didn't happen. Finally happens. So I see this, I had no idea what's coming. It drops and I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing!" I sit down and I look online and all these people are like, "Terrible interview. Not worth your time. Couldn't get past the first 20 minutes." Anything like that. I'm like, what? So I go and the first 20 minutes are kind of like, eh whatever. I get done with this three-hour interview. It was like, top three interviews of all time. What's interesting is... Do you know Kanye? Like, how Kanye communicates at all?   Russell: No.   Josh: Okay, there's so many references that I want to use that you won't get. Kanye sees the world fundamentally differently and how Joe describes it in there and the way that I described it is... You wouldn't know this, like I said, because it's psychedelic, it's like a drug or whatever. But imagine being on a psychedelic drug in a small format at all times. That's how his mind works. He sees everything, it's like expanded. So even Kanye said, "The reason I have such a hard time communicating sometimes is because I see things in three-dimensional and then I have to put them into a two-dimensional conversation." I'm not trying to compare myself the way I think to the way that Kanye thinks, ubt this concept of people think he's beating around the bush when really he's just trying to explain something. One of the things I love doing is taking a concept that and figuring out how to describe it in a way that the average person can understand. I live in a different world, just like you live in a different world than the average person does. I live in a different world and that is by choice. I do not see the world the way that most people do. I intentionally do not want to see the world the way that other people do. Everything that I do, I will intentionally engineer where my life is different than the average person because I want to see the world differently, but I want to be able to communicate that in a way that they can understand. My question is, do you think that there's a lot of great ideas stuck inside of producer's heads that if more people understood them and thought like that, we could change the world for the better? But because they're stuck in their head and that person doesn't know how to communicate it well, or is not focused on that, that that effect never happens. Russell: Gotcha. Yes. That's why I think for me the study, this art of funnels and copywriting and story does, is so fascinating. That's what it is, right? I always pitch, like when we have an idea, in my head it's like this big granite block, right? It's like, this is the idea and give it to somebody, like, "This is the idea." You're like, "I don't get it." Right? Josh: Right. Russell: Then you start thinking about, who is it? Start chiseling away at the stone. You start chiseling, chiseling, and eventually you have this amazing statue. This thing that people can see and they can understand and they gravitate towards. I feel it's the same thing with communication or with any kind of idea you're trying to sell. The funnel is one thing. Right now, like, "Hey, you should buy my coaching programs." Why? Like, "Ah, it's too big." I need to take them to a path, simplify that. So there's a step-by-step process which is like chiseling away. Then inside each step of the process, there's the words and the stories, the things you communicate to simplify it to get more and more fine tuned. That's why for me, when we create a funnel and we launch it, it's like taking this big granite block and chiseling it down to now something that somebody can come in on the side of it go through a process. By the time they're done at the end, they're going to get some money, they're going to get a product and something's going to change for them. I think that's what marketing is. it's that process of trying to simplify the message. I think a hundred percent, that's why most ideas don't get out. I don't know, how many times have you had... This kind of comes back to talking about, who knows, an hour or two ago too, but four or five people get the same idea, but then one person executes on it. It's like the person who understands the communication the best is the one typically who gets it out, right? How much of your life or my life has been focused on the communication? I don't necessarily like that part as much. It's not my favorite part, but it's such an essential tool. I remember when I got in this game and I was trying to sell my very first product, Zip Brander. I put it up, I had a picture of it, Buy Now button and tried to send traffic, and nobody bought it. Someone's like, "Well, you need a headline," so I'm like, okay. So I put a headline. "Tell us what this does." So I found some sites that kind of modeled what they did and the people started buying it. It was learning that process of, how do you communicate? I remember thinking, I never want to learn how to write copy. That's what we all thought back then. "I don't want to write copy, I don't want to do that. That sounds horrible." I wanted to hire someone, but the people I tried to hire was expensive, it was 10 to $20,000 for a sales letter. I couldn't afford it, so I'm like, I have to learn this art and how to communicate. I'm so grateful because that's how everything we built has been, off the communication of an idea, and doing it in a way that gets people to move. Josh: How do you decide what you're going to communicate? You have a lot of ideas in your head and you have a lot of different thoughts on everything and you choose to share funnels and marketing primarily. Then you have some religion in there, which I would say probably is number two, maybe ish, of what you communicate. But that's it. How do you decide... Russell: The battles I want to choose? Josh: Yeah. Russell: What battles? That's a good question. I think part of what's interesting, like why did I want to do this interview? I read the book, it was fascinating. I don't know the answers and I thought this would be a fun way to talk it out loud. This is fascinating. Funnels are fascinating to me because I can apply it to so many things. You know when I talk a lot about wrestling, but not the community you bump into but for wrestling, I talk about that. I think it's just the ideas that fascinate me that I feel have the most fluidity and can do the most. Again, as an introverted person, I'll typically go out and have conversations with people as much as I can, but when I find something that does cause and effect, that's why I practice telling my story so many times and I'll do a podcast. I know now when I'm on stage in front of 9,000 people, the stories can get people to move because I practice it. So I think it's putting a lot of things out in the water and then seeing what things people relate to, and then I go deeper on the ones that are like, "Okay, this one had an impact." There's a lot of stuff. I remember in first version Dotcom Secrets, there were seven or eight chapters more that never got published. I was going to publish… Josh: Do you have copies of this? Russell: Yeah. It was like, all my best stuff at the time that I knew that I was going to publish it and it was all in the book. I remember I heard an interview with Tim Ferriss and Ryan Holiday... Ryan Holiday at the time and they were both talking... Anyway, they were talking about their books. Both of them said that when they write a typical book... You know, Tim Ferris's books are like this fat… My first draft was like, twice as big. It's like, to make your book go from good to great, it's not adding more. It's cutting. Like, I cut two thirds of my book to give you this one. I think it was Ryan said the same thing. The first draft is usually twice as big as the final one. Then the next section, it's cut, cut, cut, cut. I remember going back to Dotcom Secrets that night and I was like, "Okay, based on that, what would I cut and how would that do?" I cut seven chapters out and after I was done, I was so scared because I love these things, but those things aren't that important to get people what they need to actually be successful. Some of those things ended up being in Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets, and different places, but yeah. I wonder how that first version- Josh: I was going to say, I wonder if she just published the first day or if she had a 2,700 page book and cut something out of it. That's crazy. Okay. Back to the question in the car, and I want to tie this back to the book. How has growing a multi-hundred million dollar, making hundreds of millions of dollars having a roughly billion-dollar company, being the CEO of 400 employees, how has that changed your perspective of the world? Russell: So many things I could respond. I think there was a season of my life where I thought that if I was going to create something, if I was going to do something, the way I was going to do it, by me. Does that makes sense? Josh: Yeah. Russell: In fact, if you look at my history, the first decade of business, the businesses were about me. They were me. I was the sole owner, the sole person. On this journey, when we started, it was so different. It was like, what's the team look like? Todd was my first time I had a partner. That was so scary for me. Then it's been the greatest thing I possibly could have done. Right? Then we brought in other partners and then employees and stuff. I don't know. It's been fascinating just realizing that to build this, it wasn't about me. It was about... I don't know, just that whole thing. I think anything great, a lot of times there's a person that gets credit for it. Like, Elon Musk gets credit because whatever or Bill Gates or whoever the people are, they get the credit for it. You start really seeing how many people are involved to make something amazing. You know what I mean? I think that's the biggest thing for me as I started growing it. It's frustrating. Not frustrating for me. I enjoy it. People are always asking, "Russell invented ClickFunnels." I literally don't know how to code anything. There's not one dot of code in that word. Maybe once I leaned over Todd's shoulder, put a button in that and he had to delete it. I think it's cool that you see how many... Before Funnel Hacking Live, every time we start we bring our whole team together. I'm the one who's on stage, but I am fully aware that it is not me. This is us. If it wasn't for this team and these people, all you guys, all your contribution, this was impossible. I want to always ground that because I think sometimes the leader or whoever gets a big head where they think it's them. I see that with a lot of people who are on big stages where they still drink their own Kool-Aid so they think it's them. That's my shift in the world, just understanding the great things, the things that we remember. The things that are legacies that go on and on and on. There may be a head or a person that the branding tied too, but there's this group of people that created something amazing. That's… know what I mean? Josh: How do you stay grounded? I am a huge fan of Russell because for me, you're the person I look up to as not just, hey, you taught me how to make a lot of money, but I want to have the character that you have. I don't want to have... I look at Grant Cardone. You don't have to talk smack about Grant Cardone, but I can. Grant Cardone is really, really full of himself. Don't get me wrong. I learned a lot from Graham Cardone, especially about money. He's changed my perspective about a lot of things. I'm eternally grateful for that, but if I grew up to be Grant Cardone, where that was the focus.., I mean, I watched him, I was there at the stadium down in Miami or whatever. It was all about him. I think he even got up on stage and was like, "Oh yeah, everybody says Russell is the greatest salesman, but I'm the one that packed the house." I'm like, dude! You know what I'm saying? Why? Why is that necessary? How do you stay grounded? It's so fascinating to me to watch different types of people. I know Tai Lopez for example, for awhile there, it was all about Tai and now he's gone more behind the scenes, but each person that I watch whether it's Tai or Gary or Grant, they all have a different way about them. You have your way about them. The one that I see as the most grounded, humble... There's nobody that's looking at you. You get up on a stage and you're like, "Oh yeah, I'm Russell!" You know what I mean? Russell: Everyone awkwardly, like, "Yay." Josh: Right. Then you walk up and Grant's like... But you, it's just yeah, it's that awkward, "Hey, I'm just over here." How are you grounded in that? How do you not let it get to your head? Because it would be so easy for you to get wrapped up in your own head. Russell: Someone told me it's because of my wife. They said, "If you'd married anybody else, your head would be so big." Josh: I met your wife for the first time today. I mean, we had crossed paths, but I said when you were getting your haircut, "So what's it like being married to Russell?" She goes, "Hes just the sixth child of mine." I was like, oh boy. The big kid. Russell: That's awesome. I think I would say it's two things. We kind of talked about this earlier, but I'll tie back to it. The first one is that I am fully aware that these ideas are not mine. I didn't invent the funnel. I didn't invent any of this stuff. All I know is that I was on a path, in a journey. I was given the thing and the next thing, and I was freaking out and I was putting them together. That's part of it. This stuff's not mine. It's stuff that was given to me and tested and so I'm so grateful for that. It's never me like, "Oh, look what I invented." That's so annoying because it's not. Again, come back to these ideas, these thoughts, these desires and things that were given to us. I think that's the first part. The second part of it is, and I see this a lot in people in my world who, they had some success and then they're like, "This is my person. I made them a bajillion..." I hate that too. Like, you helped them in a piece but they did the work. I'm very careful to always when I'm talking about any of our success stories, I didn't make that person. We had this super-cool opportunity to be a piece to their journey. Right? We helped them give them some ideas and a tool, but they're the ones that killed. I don't know what it takes to build what they're building. I didn't do that. They did that. I'm grateful that they did and I'm even more grateful that I got to be a little piece of that. I got to be part of that journey. I got to see that and just have the impact of, oh my gosh. Because I killed myself and wrote those books and because Todd killed himself and wrote software and I was able to communicate it, they're able to do this thing and it's not all me. I'm fully aware it's not all me. I know what every entrepreneur has to go through to be successful and it's not a mentor who gives you everything. It's just a lot of people who are a piece. I've had mentors who gave me a piece that I'm so grateful for, but then they try to take all the credit, like, "Oh, this is when..." I hate that too. So I think those two sides. Number one is again, I don't think these ideas are something that I came up with. They were given to me and I was a good steward of them because I was able to aggregate and there's the thing. The number two is just my belief that I didn't help anyone. Even when you said, "You and Katie," I felt awkward. I didn't do anything. Josh: Right. Russell: Luckily some of the stuff resonated with you and it was a little piece of your journey. I'm so grateful for that. The fact, to see you do stuff now, it's so much fun for me to watch you. Just knowing, "Man, because he bumped into me, maybe something happened and now he's doing this stuff and this work and it's so cool seeing how you're impacting people." I think those are the reasons why I don’t think my head gets big, because I don't think it's me. I'm grateful that I get to be a piece of it, of the journey, but I'm not the creator of it. Josh: All right. I want to loop back to the book. Russell: Go ahead. Can we just read it? You guys want us to read it to you? Josh: Yeah. What was the thing that fascinated you about it though? When you've asked me, you were like, "Dude, I read it and I'm geeking out about it, I just want to geek out about it." What about it had you so fascinated? What did you want to geek out about it? I have a question that I want to ask later on about it, but what was the thing that just made you geek? Russell: There are a lot of things. I think the biggest thing that I was really excited, we talked about earlier was just… The biggest thing earlier was just this cons-... Again, for those of you who are tuning in late in here, there's the whole, it talks about greed. Right? And that concept of greed versus charity. Again, the book very much is like, greed is good, it's the thing that causes production and you should care about yourself and then good things will happen, it will create jobs and everything else will take care of as long as you're caring most about yourself. Which I thought was kind of cool but then also I had the other side with my beliefs in Christ and Christianity and all these things like that, where it's just like, how does that reconcile with faith, hope, charity and love, and serving everybody else? That's probably the thing that got me the most. I think about that a lot, especially in politics. Again, I'm not deep into politics, I'm not going to talk about who I'm voting for, not voting for, it doesn't matter. But I see that on both sides. I feel like on the Republican side you see a lot of this stuff, like this. Then on the Democrat side, you see a lot of the charity stuff. Again, in my notes I wrote this actually initially, because I wanted to talk about this. I'm a big believer that there's not a right and wrong. There's good in both sides. Josh: There's not a right or wrong side. Russell: Yeah. Things are messed up on both sides. It's how the world works. Satan, there's this eternal struggle between God and Satan and Christ, this is always happening. So there's two sides and there's God-like principles and things on the right that are amazing and then there's Satan that's twisting things and jacking them up. Same thing on both sides. I see everyone fighting tooth and nail and I bet you, if we all sat down, the majority of all issues we'd all agree on. But then it's these fringe things that causes so much hatred and fighting and just drives me crazy. I think that this book is the perfect example of what I believe so much in some of these principles, but there's also the opposite principles that I also believe in and they're both right. If you missed the beginning part of the interview, we talked more about that but the greed, the growth and contribution, that transition is the key that just fascinates me. Josh: Yeah. What parts of the book contradicted the most with your faith? What part of the books did you have the hardest time with because of your faith? Russell: Yeah. The producers in the book, the minds, the people that I connect with, because I self-identify as a producer, someone who's obsessed with production and creating. That’s why I relate with Hank Rearden, Dagny, all these people are cut from my same cloth. It's as they're growing this stuff that they didn't give back, that they didn't... That's the thing. I felt like they weren't rounded out characters and that's the biggest thing for me. The first half of the book, I want to be Hank Rearden. He's fricking the man. Like yes, that's all I want to be. I wanted to see him have that change of heart where he's Christ-like and he gives of his own free will. Not because the government came with the gun and told him he's got to pay taxes. I wanted to see his character develop and realize that, "Oh my gosh, I should be serving people because I love them. Not because of the government's force." That's the piece that I wish. Josh: It never took that turn. The book, you almost expected it and then it didn't happen. Russell: It got worse and worse and worse and then they waited until just everything... People were dying, everything collapses and then the lights in the yurt go out, wooh, and they're like, "Okay, now we can come back and build." Josh: Now we can go back and build, but even when they come back and build, it was built by our new law of basically... Actually, one of the things that's fascinating about that was... Gosh, it was towards the end. Was it Galt? I think it was Galt. Yeah, I think it was during his speech when he was like, "The minds society, we gave all this stuff to you guys basically." Trying to be like God there, but every day, we created all this stuff, we created these jobs, we created these resources. We gave it to you and all we wanted from you guys was for you to let us be in our own head. Let us, our minds be free and not be controlled by anything else. You took all that and not only did you take it all, then you said, "No, you're bad and we're going to take that away too. So we're all going on strike because of that." You relate to that so much and then it's like, yes! Then they explained how they live and it's like, you expect them to have that change of heart rather, but no. It's because we are amazing and because we are the great minds and we must live by this code. It has nothing to do with actually giving back or actually contributing to society. It was like they didn't care about contributing to society. It just happened to happen. Russell: Yeah. Which is cool, which is why again, governments should let producers produce because the byproduct is really good. Josh: Right. Russell: For everybody. So that part is so much I relate to. Part of this is probably because Ayn Rand didn't believe in God. You know what I mean? That wasn't part of her values and so it's tough because she weaved that... I just wish at the end of the book, it would have been like, and then Hank Rearden realized that he could help all these people himself and so he built orphanages and changed all these kids' lives. Like, yes! That would have been amazing. He found about OUR and he went and donated money to save all these children. Josh: Right. Russell: But he did it of his own free will because he had that change of heart. I don't want to die at the end of my days and... I produced some great jobs, but I didn't care about people. I feel like that missed the mark. Josh: Hank Rearden you say is the person you related to really most in the book? Russell: Yeah, I think so. I wanted to be Francisco though, he was pretty sweet. Josh: Who do you think I related to most in the book? Russell: Oh. Who was it? Josh: It was a relatively main one. You were close. Russell: Oh, was it Francisco? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Russell: He was cool. Josh: Right from the beginning he fascinated me. I knew right when, the plot twist of where he ran off and became the playboy or picture, he was obviously a playboy or whatever. I knew right then and there. I don't know what the plot, I don't know what the connection is but I know this is going to come back around and it's not going to be how it seems. The mind doesn't shift and then he stays in the scene or whatever. He fascinated me because, or he strikes me as someone... Hank Rearden didn't care about the crowds. He did not at all. He hated going to the wedding. It was by force that his wife drug him out there that one time. It was always, "I just want to work in my office." I'm actually not like that. I am actually much more the... I do like the crowds, but I don't like the crowds because I need praise. Don't get me wrong, I like being on stage and doing this type of stuff or whatever, but for me, I like the crowds because I love people. It's funny because I actually don't get along with a lot of people in real life. Whenever I go to the airport, I'm like, I will pay whatever it takes. Put me on a plane first, the least amount of people I have to deal with, whatever. I don't want to have to interact with people that I don't want to interact with. But I love studying and understanding people's minds. For me, one of the reasons I am so fascinated by Donald Trump is because of how he can control the crowds. You look at his rallies. Dude, you can't ignore them. They're just huge. My fiance's parents, or her mom and Kirby went yesterday, I think it was last night, to Omaha. 29,000 people showed up in the bitter cold of Omaha, a last-minute notice. That type of control or not even control, but that type of influence to be able to go through, what is it that makes people go and do that? So Francisco in the book, he was the partier guy and he went and he was with the crowds and he was very good with words and articulated, but he sold me at that wedding. I'm telling you. Russell: That was good. Josh: To me, there's more than two ways, but super simplified down, there's two ways to influence people. There's one, which is the indirect, which is build a software company, it's build a product, it's build an iPhone. You're not directly influencing them with your words or whatever, but it's influencing their behavior by creating a product, by creating a service that's going to go out and change the world. Then the other way is to actually go out there and change them with your words. That's why Jesus, for example, Jesus didn't build the product. He did it through His words kind of, sort of, but to me that's so fascinating. If I can figure out how to do that, that's how I can affect real change in the world. And it's funny because you've had had such a massive influence on my life, but probably a year and a half maybe ish into me knowing ClickFunnels, I was like, "Man, Russell's doing it all wrong." I had this thing of, if Russell would communicate more about stuff besides funnels, he would have a bigger impact. I had this limited belief of, this is the only way you can influence and impact people, is by going out there and actually speaking to them. But that's my superpower and my gift. In the book, Francisco was the one I think that best represents my style of trying to go out and do things. I find it interesting by Hank Rearden with you… Russell: I'm the same way. I would rather be in here building funnels, doing some stuff. There's scenes of Hank in the book where he's sitting there looking out over the factories at night and he sees, he watches the steel being poured, it's glowing. He's enjoying that. For me, it's similar where I do the stage thing and things like that. I get less value… interactions are hard, but I spend a lot of time on social media at night, just looking at the people that I know are in our world and watching what they're doing because that's me watching the steel. My mission is not to go teach people how to do what you do. I'm giving you a blow horn so you can go do it. That's more fascinating to me to sit back and explain to my wife. Events drive her crazy because then it'll happen and it'll get done and then I scurry off and I don't want to talk to anybody. I sit in the room and I just watch what people takeaways and then who they're talking to. I spend a lot of time just watching. That's for me like looking over the steel and being like, I gave them a trumpet or I gave them a blow horn and now their messages are going out there and I can just watch it. So for me, I don't want to teach personal development and this and that, but I want to empower or give tools or whatever tools there are so that you can and whoever all the other influencers are to be able to do those things. Does that makes sense? I'm an amplifier. I'm an amplifier of other people's messages and my message just happens to be, "Here's the amplification that you need to amplify your message," and then letting everybody else go and do it.

Welcome back to part 3 of this special episode series. Today Russell and Josh try to answer the question, “does everybody need to be an entrepreneur?” They also talk about celebrating other people’s success and how having kids has changed the way they work. So listen in and enjoy part 3 of this very special interview. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. We're about to start the third part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. I hope you guys enjoyed part one and part two. I'm sure there are things that you agreed with, I'm sure there are things you disagreed with, that's okay. This whole thing is not about me trying to force anything on you, it's more just to get us all thinking and open the conversations and help us look at things from both sides. With that said, we're going to move now into the third part of the interview series. Again, we broke down our three and a half hour interview into five podcasts episodes. I know these are long, but I hope you're enjoying them. And hopefully it's just getting the wheels spinning. Hopefully, you're enjoying it. And I really hope that it gives you the desire to go and read the Atlas Shrugged book and kind of see some of these principles through that lens. So, with that said, we'll queue up the theme song. When we get back, you'll have a chance to listen to part three of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: Okay. I want to circle back to one quick thing and then we can move on. Russell Brunson: Okay. Josh: So the question I was trying to ask was, when you were like, "Hey, there's the technician or there's the plumber, there's this, or there's that or then there's the person that comes in and makes it rain." There's only a few people in an organization that like, make it rain, right? Like you in ClickFunnels, you make it rain. You're the one that brings it in and, I'm sure there's other people to a certain extent, but you are that person. And you probably have what, 100, 200 people on the support team? That don't actually make the company any money, but they do play a critical role in the sense that the company couldn't function without them. And so, to those people there, how does somebody who... Two-part question. One, can you live your best life in a position like that? Can you be most alive and fulfilled and live a great life, doing something average like that? Number two, does that person need to go learn how to make it rain? Does everybody need to be an entrepreneur? Does everybody need to be... Like, you are so fascinating, you got this whole community of funnel hackers and like, "We're going to go out and choose a world. We think differently. We do it differently. We got all this stuff." Would it be good if the whole world thought that way? Or do we need people that don't think that way? Russell: There was a time in life where I thought everyone should think that way. I don't think so now. I have family members who love what they do and they're obsessed with the art, like the art is what they do. Some people... I've had good masseuses and bad masseuses. Some masseuses, that is their art, you can tell, you're just like, "Oh, my gosh. They're the best at their craft." And I think that's okay, I think if it brings fulfillment, that's more important. But people aren't fulfilled, that's the second question. If you're not fulfilled then why, you know? And I think one of the most powerful things, Myron Golden taught this at Funnel Hacking live, and he taught it at two comma club a couple times, he has a thing called the four levels of value. It's so fascinating because… Josh: Such a good one. Russell: Yeah, it's so good. The first level of value, for those who haven't heard this before, is it just talks about I'm going to not do it justice, Martin's the man. One of the greatest speakers of all- Josh: Tell YouTube. Actually I don't even know, if it's on YouTube. Russell: It's on my... Anyway, yes. So bottom level is, people work their hands, right? And this is the hardest work. Like, the person that's actually building the building. Or typing, you're doing support, or whatever the thing is, they're working with their hands. That's the lowest level of value, right? Like the most you make when you're, when you work with your hands is maybe 50, 60, $70,000 a year, but you're tapped out, you can't get higher than that. Now, if that's your calling and you're good at, and you love it, go all in. Become the best in the world at that thing, and that's totally cool. But you cap out on salary, you can't make more money at a certain point. Because that's the value of that tier value. The next tier value, if you move up one tier, is management. Somebody who can manage all of the workers. And there's people... One of the big mistakes we made inside of ClickFunnels, we took the people inside of our team who were the best workers and we upgraded them to management and they were horrible managers, amazing workers moved into management. And they weren't managers, this is a different mindset. They can go learn that, but that's not where they were gifted. And a lot of times it was irreparable, we couldn't move them back down because in their mind, like, "Oh I'm a manager now." It's like, "No." I think one of things we learned is someone can be a worker and make more money than the manager. Just because sometimes their skillset, like the programmers and developers, getting an amazing programmer to code something is, a lot of times, worth more than the managers managing that person. But in most businesses, most organizations, manager's next tier, right? Because you make more money as a manager because you're managing a lot of workers, as opposed to one. Then you go up the next tier value and it's the communicators. People learn how to talk and to sell, that's the next thing. You make more selling and you do managing, and you typically make more managing than you do actually doing the thing. And not everyone's going to be great salespeople. I think it's a teachable skill. I think you may have seen my early videos, everyone thinks this is a gift that I was born with. It is not, it is something that's been developed. Josh: Guys, you should go look at Russell's old videos, they're so embarrassing. Russell: They are the worst ever. Yeah, when I was your age I would not have been able to do this, it's crazy. So that tier is the communicators and the top tier are the visionaries. Imagining it, you're using your brain to make money. So your use your brain, your mouth, your management skills or your hands. Those are the four tiers of value. So I think wherever you fit in there, that's cool, we need people all the tiers, but like... I did a podcast about this the other day, I'm like, "Whatever you going to be, don't just be a person doing it, become the best in the world." We were in Oakville Tony's Event and we're in a hotel and it was kind of weird because there's a spa, so like, all excited to get massages, but it's also COVID right now. So the masseuses have masks on, they have plastic gloves, it was weird. And I got my very first massage, they paid for two massage it. So I was like, "It'll be fun." The first massage was so bad. I was like, "I never want to get a massage again, ever." It was so bad and I'm sitting there on the table, it was only an hour long massage, by the time it was done I was like, "I want to get out of here, this is just weird and horrible." I did not enjoy it. And I'm a massage person. Josh: Yeah. I love massage. Russell: And I was to the point I'd never want massage again, but they'd already booked us for the next day for the second one. And I was annoyed. I went to the second one and same thing. She's got plastic gloves on like we have to do and the mask. And I'm just kind of like, "Oh, I don't even want to be here." And then she puts her hands on me and it's just like, it was art, it was different. And both of them are doing the same job, right? But somebody was like, "I want to be the best the world." Versus, "Oh, I'm just doing the thing." And you see that in every area of life, the chiropractors, there's chiropractors, that are good and there's ones that are great. Doctors, dentists, business. I'm more, wherever you're at, don't just be mediocre, become the best in the world there. That's more important to me than... You know, if you can be a plumber, be the plumber who you walk in... Like we've had, our house, so many plumbers come in. We had some that come and they fix the leak and then something else breaks and they go “uh…” And other guys should come in to check everything, they make sure it's perfect. I want that person, I want the artists I want the person that this is their art and not just like, "Ugh, best job I could find." Josh: Yeah. All right, so now I'm about to ask you a question and I understand this is totally your opinion on it, maybe you have something to base it on. So, the person that is at those lower levels of value, the average worker that's out there, that's doing their thing, especially in today's super soft victim mentality America that wants to vote for free stuff. Makes me so mad. Anyway. The average person that's out there, looks up at people that make a lot of money and the general consensus, I think, or the way that America slash the world is going is, rich people are bad, right? Like, "You're so greedy, man. You got all his money and you're not giving any to me, you get to go sit in your massive house and your cars and you can do whatever you want." And so, even if they are doing what they are called to do, they'll look up to a millionaire, a billionaire, somebody that has all this stuff and they'll look at it as bad. Like that shouldn't happen. How do you create a society? And this is why... I know this is big picture type stuff, but how do you create a society that allows people to be okay with being the best version of themselves where they're at without looking at you and being like, "You're bad."? You know what I mean? Russell: Yeah. Well, it's not going to happen in our lifetime. It's not going to happen, my belief, till Christ comes again. And when he does, it'll be a perfect, you know, things will be great. But until then, it's not going to happen because humans are humans. Right? Josh: You mean Donald Trump's not going to just fix everything? Russell: Oh, if he does that'd be amazing but I'm not holding my breath. But I would say more so just, for anyone who feels that way, I would look at that more... And I did a podcast about this, if you're not someone who celebrates other people's successes, everybody, I don't care if you hate the person, if you're a big fan or you're not a big fan, if you don't celebrate their success, then you are going to struggle to ever be successful because you're going to be so scared of other people not celebrating your success. I remember... I am not a huge Gary Vee fan, you know this, for reasons I'll talk about in my next book. But- Josh: When I tweet this out on Twitter, Gary, when you follow me, shout out, by the way, The Patriots won the Superbowl more than The Jets. Just throw that out there. All right, continue. I just guaranteed he'd never come on my podcast. Russell: I do like Gary, I just, we had a thing, but whatever, he doesn't remember it, I'm sure. But anyway, he got the shoe deal with... Whatever the shoes. Josh: Adidas. Russell: And he's going to market and for half a second, I was like, "That sucks." And then I was like, "You freaking he's in our industry and he got a shoe deal!" And I ran to my computer. Josh: Or K-Swiss, yeah. Russell: The K-Swiss. I bought the shoes. I got them… And I did a podcast, celebrating the fact that someone in our community got a shoe deal and all these things. And most people that I know were like, "I thought you're not a big Gary fan." I'm like, "I'm not, but that's a huge success, we should celebrate success." Because if you don't, then what's going to automatically happen in your head. If you're Not celebrating people's successes then you have the subconscious fear that someone's not going to do yours. And so you're going to stifle yourself and be successful. So I try when anybody around me is having success. Whether I like them or I don't like them, I always am like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to try to celebrate it." And then by doing that it changes your brain to the spot where you're okay having success, because you're assuming everyone's going to celebrate like you. And they're not going to, but it's different subconsciously. If you are not celebrating other people's successes it will stifle you from ever having your own. And so I think that's a big part of... If that's where you're at right now, it's something you got to change. And when you start making that little shift and start celebrating people's successes above you, it's freeing, it's amazing. Because then all of a sudden you're unlocking yourself, like I can succeed because they did and people are going to celebrate me. And it shifts those like psychological things that you do and it changes everything. It's weird. Josh: Do you think... You're not political, like hardly at all. Like, do you even pay attention? Russell: No, not too much. I was like, so those who read the book, Hank Rearden, and this is part of his demise, is he doesn't pay attention to it at all. So as I read the book, I'm like, Hank Rearden, doesn't pay attention, I don't pay attention. Real quick, can we do a shout out for these shirts again? You guys have seen them? By the way, how many of you guys would like one of these shirts? Josh: Ooh let's make them comment for this first. Russell Brunson: Okay. Josh: Guys, how many of you want to shirt? Yes or no. Comment yes or no down below. Russell: So this is the Rearden Steel one. And this is who is John Galt? One. Josh: Very dope. I'm not going to lie though. Like that was pretty dope, but this one wins for one reason. Russell: The quote is cool. We can put that quote on this one too and make it silver. Josh: Ooh. Ooh. Russell: Okay. This is my selfish pitch. Can I do- Josh: Hey guys, can Russel do a pitch real quick? Russell: Is it okay if I sell something? He says something to you. Keep in mind. I make no money off of this. I don't even know what he's doing. No, we have a little fun site we created just because that'd be fun called TshirtSmackdown.com where we have two shirts and then people vote with their wallets, which shirt they want better. So if you guys want these shirts, you could actually buy whichever one is your favorite, or both if you like them both. Just got to go to TshirtSmackdown.com and they're up there right now. And guess who was the models on TshirtSmackdown? I assume. Are we the models? Anyway, go to TshirtSmackdown.com, you can get one or two- Josh: Oh my gosh. Look at that big your team. Russell: We're super models! Josh: Your team's amazing, dude. They put it together that fast.. Okay. Let's geek out the book here for a second. Russell: Yeah. Josh: The audible door. That, the password that was audible. When I read that I was like, "Yes!" That's a brilliant mind at, it's like you have to say it. And the part that I thought was interesting was, it wasn't just the words he's like, and it's programmed to where it will not open unless the person that is saying it is actually like saying it with conviction or something to that effect. They actually have to like, mean it. Can't just be like, "Duh duh duh duh duh. Okay, I'm in." Like, now you guys want to read the book so bad. Okay. All right. We'll come back to the TshirtSmackdown, comment. down below. Let us know and let us know guys. Let's not go down the comments, if you're listening on audio you can go leave a rating and review and leave us in the comments. But like, if you're just listening, YouTube, Facebook, wherever, comment down below your favorite part of the conversation was so far. I think that'd be super cool. Okay. Let's geek out on the book for a second here. I actually have a lot of questions about the book, but I want to know, what was your favorite scene? Russell: Oh, Oh, so many good scenes. My favorite scene in the book. So it's kind of like the crescendo of the whole book. Because the whole book is asking, who's John Galt. Who's John Galt. Josh: Okay. Hold on. Sorry, David's sitting in the background. Have you read the book, Dave? Okay. So I'm just making sure that you're not just sitting over here, like freaking out. Dave's like I have to read it too. I was like, I need to talk to somebody. Dave, go read this. I'll see you in six months. Russell: So the whole books leader, who's John Galt, who's John Galt. We're kind of introduced to him a little bit when Dagny meets them. And then she leaves and goes back to the real world. And all of a sudden, there's this part where the looters and the government are trying to do this broadcast. And all of a sudden… (static noise) the broadcast is interrupted and they're trying figure how to fix it. But all of the people who would fix it have been taken- Josh: Because all the great minds as society are gone. Russell: And all of a sudden over the loud speaker comes John Galt and he starts the speech. And the speech I think is 80 pages in the book. It's four hours on the audio book, four hours. This is why you don't watch you to movie you by the way. Cause it's less than 30 seconds in the movie. Josh: How do you take out four hours? Russell: Oh, it's such a good... Anyway, he gets on this microphone broadcasting to the entire world, nobody can cut them off. And he gives this speech about… Josh: The entire book. Russell: I’m just freaking out… The set up. It was so crazy, all of a sudden it happened. I was like, "Whoa." And anyway, that was my- Josh: And he ends with this and he goes, and I'll say it one last time “I pledged my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine.” Russell: Anyway, that was my favorite part. Josh: The 80 page. Four hour long version of it? Okay. Russell: Oh yeah. So good. Josh: Okay. I like that. My favorite part of the book, I read this and I was like... So, I like play my life on and act like I'm in a movie, right. Sometimes I'm like, do this. So do you remember what the wedding? Russell: Oh, Francisco speech. Dude! Josh: That might've been better. I promised Leah I would be done after this chapter. And it ends, and I'm like, "No!" Russell: The John Galt had a better buildup and then I didn't know it was coming, there's a wedding and everything. And then all of a sudden it starts happening. I was like- Josh: Out of freaking nowhere. Russell: Yeah. So Francisco, he gives a speech that was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting it. So I think it was less buildup, but it was amazing. Yeah. The John Galt buildup was like, this is like, I was waiting when you said movie. Because I was like, "It can be amazing." Then it's like, come on. Anyway. Yeah. Those are the two best parts. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. At that wedding... I'm reading this and it was like that moment I was like, "Okay. She finally made it all..." And that was relatively early on in the book. I was like, Oh, if the book follows anything like this, this is going to be such a good book. Right. Because he gets done with that and you're just... It's something you'd want to watch out in real life and know that somebody thought this up and they wrote down. You're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was so good. That was, that was hands down my favorite part. Russell: I want to read the book again, I wish it wasn't 1200 pages because I want to go back to experience it but it's so big. Josh: Okay. Have you read the cliff notes version of the book? Russell: No. Josh: Okay. So yeah. So there is there's, I think there's the cliff notes, like the one that you buy. I think it's like a four-hour audio book, I haven't listened to that one. But usually on cliffsnotes.com, can like read the book. You can basically get a summary of the whole book in like, 30 to 45 minutes. I read it. Russell: It's still worth reading though, you guys. Josh: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. But that's the reason I'm bring it up because I notice 1200 pages, but if you just read the Clifton, but you're like, "Oh, okay. Cool storyline." But you miss the effect of it all. Russell: One of the things that I thought was fascinating. Just because I'm working on my next book, which is not a how-to book, so I'm learning how to write differently. So I've been- Josh: Ooh, you want to tell us all about it? Russell: I'm really proud, excited for it. But one thing was interesting, if you look Ayn Rand did the dialogue in the book, she did all the dialogue, but it's just one person speaking. So it's fascinating. Every time you notice that, like when her partner was in the cafeteria with some guy we didn't know, you only hear his words, you never hear the other side. Josh: That's so true. Russell: Most of her dialogues were just, you heard the one person talking and you could get the gist of the conversation by reading one side, but they never had the other side and I'd never seen someone write that way before. And there's a lot of cool things like that where it's just like... Again, I've written three books now, but I wrote books with Google Docs, with editors and people. Like imagine writing a book in the fifties with a typewriter. Think how much forethought has to go to something like this. Josh: Yeah, that's wild. Russell: It is insane to think that. Yeah. So I have so much respect for people who wrote then. And especially, I'm trying to learn how to write as a story as opposed to how to, and the art of it is just fascinating. As a book, it's worth reading just to see how she wrote is fascinating as well. Josh: What was your biggest... Actually, I want to go down that rabbit hole a little bit further. So writing, is your next book fiction or not? Russell: No, it's just the next book is about bootstrap.com. Bootstrapping is the ClickFunnels story, but it's not like the how-to, it's telling the story as the story, which is going to be cool. Josh: Oh, that's going to be so good. Russell: First thing we're doing is all the core people who've been part of ClickFunnels story. We're flying them out and interviewing them for... I've been mapping out the entire timeline of events as close as I can remember and I'm going to interview... All the pieces from their point of view. Trying to get that from like 50 different people and then take all that stuff, think the timelines up and write the book as a story. So it's a different writing style I've never done before. Josh: That's interesting. Russell: Oh yeah. Dave wants to tell you the cool part. So I'm also like been re-geeking out on The Hero with a Thousand Faces and The Hero's 2 Journeys and all that stuff. Because I want to make sure... Well someday I want to try to sell it to Hollywood or something. So who knows? I don't have the end of the story yet, but like- Josh: Which is by the way, super fascinating because of how the concept concept of going for a target and then going towards it. Like, you don't know the end now you're just like, that is so cool. Russell: Oh yeah, and so it's cool. But I was like- Josh: Russell's so much fun to watch. Russell: So I've been, I've been geeking out on the hero's journey. So I'm like, I'm trying to sync the timeline of the ClickFunnels startup story to the timeline of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, all the core things. To see if I can get it to fit inside that framework, which I think we'll be able to do. it's going to be amazing. Then what I'm trying to do in my new office is I'm going to build the rumors, like a timeline, so the entire room wraps in a huge chalkboard with a timeline that goes around and it has the dates and the years of the journey and stuff. And then writing in each core thing on the wall. And then, you know how in the spy movies, you have like a string that goes and you have the pieces of paper. Josh: Yeah. Russell: As I'm writing the book, I'm going to have the whole thing timed out in a square room. And so you see it all and they can see all the pieces, how they all fit together. And then when the book's done, in that room, that'll be the wallpaper on the room. Josh: Oh my gosh. Okay. All right. So here's deal. Here's a great idea. So you do that up until a certain point, like this is modern day, and then there's an end of the wall. And then from that point to there, that's when you're writing and when you get to the end of the wall you have to sell everything and go into hiding and become John Galt. Like that book's done, I’m out. That's fascinating. Russell: But I get to write a story that's way different. It's not, like all my other books are how-to books so they're written differently. And so it's just been fun- Josh: Which by the way is why when I first got into entrepreneurship I was like, "I don't know why anybody would write a book that's not like that." Like I'm like, "Why would anybody write a book like this? This is so lame." And now I'm reading it and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is so cool." Russell: I tend to respect the books I'm reading now, I just finished Shoe Dog, which is the story of- Josh: Oh that's a great book. Russell: American Kingpin, which is the story of the silk road and the dark web, one of my favorite stories I've ever read, I've read it twice already. And the writer is probably the best writers I've ever. I read it and I was so depressed. I was like, I'll never write... Because I tried to hire him to write my book for me. And he's too busy. Josh: I will give you a blank check, just write this book. You're so much better than I could ever dream of. Russell: So I had to go and learn how to do it. Josh: What was the most fascinating thing about Atlas Shrugged, to you? Like, the way it was written or the concepts of the character, anything. What was the overall, the most fascinating part for you? Russell: Character development was so cool. I think the coolest thing for me was... I'd love to see a sim diagram because I don't know it, but each of the characters each played, like they were a character, they played a role that is like this magnified society as a group, almost. Right? Josh: Yeah. That's actually super true. Russell: Like, you have Hank Rearden and Dagny, and then... Josh: James Taggart. Russell: Taggart's wife. All the people, they were humans, but they were personification of a segment of society, which is really cool. And so seeing that where you're getting this micro versions, macro problem. That was cool because I never, again I don't study politics, I'm not deep into it so I don't know all these things. And you hear this character and you hear the story, and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my gosh, that represents this group of people that I..." And so for me, it was cool because I was able to understand things at a different level. And I'm not the best at this, I always try to put myself in other people's shoes. I try to understand... That's why I'm not super political, because they get so divisive and I see good on both sides. Like, I understand, I can love people on both sides of it. I think it was so cool for me because you see the pros and the cons of each thing. Right? You see the positives, negatives, each belief pattern. Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think Rearden, as much as I related to him, it was like, there's the good and evil, right? And all of them have that. So it was just cool because it gave me this perspective, I didn't know of so many different segments of society. It made this really cool tapestry and picture for me. Josh: Huh. All right. So now the polar opposite. What do you think the book lacked in? Or didn't communicate well or left out? Russell: I think, something we talked about today, I do feel like most of the producers in the book, they didn't have the other side of it. Right? The social stuff is important, helping other people is important and I get why she did it. Like I said, the Phil Donahue interview, she's like, "People should be social. They shouldn't do it with a gun." But she never showed that she, didn't show, Hank Rearden going in like, "Oh, this is a cause I care about like, let me go and..." Josh: At all, in any part. Russell: I think that stuff's important, that's why we talk about political. On the left side, what they're trying to do is good it's right, it's from God, it's so good things. Right? But there's ways that people twist and all sorts of stuff like that. And I wish they would have showed more of that because I felt like the characters were one sided where it's just, the people that are looters and the people that are producers. And I feel like there's more blend for all of us, we have blends of those things. And they did a good job as dissect- Josh: Super, yeah. Russell: You know? I think we all have all those things, I want to give, I want to serve, I want to do things, but I also want to produce, I want to do both those things. like how do I, what's the world look like where we do both of those things. And I don't know how to. In my little universe that I've created for myself and my family, I'm trying to produce. I'm trying to contribute and try and do my version of what I think is right. All we can do is what we think is right in our own little world that we create. And so this is my world I've created, I'm trying my best to do it. And I wish that they would have showed some of that side. But I think that that was a part, I feel, that the characters were missing just that part of it. Josh: So what's interesting- Russell: Christ-like, charity, love stuff. Josh: Okay. Well, and I'm so glad you brought this up, what I think is interesting, the thing that I felt like the book was lacking the most is nobody had kids. Russell: I didn't think about that. Josh: Think about this, none of them... Because one of my questions, she was going to be like, "How Was having a kid?" And I kind of asked her... Kind of changing perspective, but I'm like- Russell: Interesting. Josh: Nobody had kids. And I don't have kids. I'm not married, I don't have kids. I'm getting married. Russell: Yeah, woo hoo! Josh: By the way. Shout out to my beautiful fiance. All right. But for me, I'm so focused right now. So I grew up in a big family, right. Eight kids. I'm the oldest living. I had one other brother who passed away, but like six younger siblings. And like, my whole life changes once there's kids in it. And I know that even though I haven't experienced it, because I've seen it. And so for me, and Leah and I have talked about this like, "The twenties are for us, thirties are for kids." And so I'm like, "I got to make as much money as I possibly can before the because ah!" And I even told Colette this, I said, "If there's there was one thing that I would sacrifice my career for in order to be able to do, it'd be to homeschool my kids." I can't fathom sending my kids to public school, that's just me because I grew up homeschooled or whatnot. But as I was going through the book, I'm like, "I can relate to all of these people, but like they're leaving out like this key component." Imagine being Hank Rearden and living like he did, with your five kids. Or do you have? Russell: I have five. Josh: Yeah, I was going to say, before I was like, "Oh my gosh." So think about that. You know what I mean? And so I feel like one of the, because there's a lot of people I know that I've read Atlas Shrugged, like, "Heck yeah man, this is the greatest book ever, like for-profit blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "Yeah. But like imagine living your life that way with a family." Imagine living your life like that with the kids and responsibilities, people that you actually like. How- Russell: I think about this. Because like our timeline, it comes back, we talk about growth and contribution. Right? So most of us, we get born. All of us, we get born right. Only way to get here, we're all born. Right? And from when you're born until you're, whatever, for me I got married at 22, I was 22. And so it's like the first 21 years, it's all about you. Right? It's selfish, it's growth. It's whatever it is, it's you, you, you. And everyone's very inward focused. And then all of a sudden you meet this beautiful person and then you fall in love, that's amazing. And also what happens is it shifts from you, you, you, to us. And you're giving, taking, giving taking, and it's cool because, all of a sudden all your focus isn't on you, it's on somebody else. But they're focused on you too and it's this amazing thing where like, I'm giving, but I'm also getting, it's this amazing thing. It's this transition that's easing you into kids because then kids come out and it flips now where it's like the opposite where you're just serving a hundred percent, especially the very beginning with kids. I was joking my kids about this one night when they're like, "Why are you guys so mean?" And I'm like, "Do you realize we get no value from this. We don't get paid a penny from this, there's nothing in parenting. We kill ourselves, we serve, we don't sleep. We work. We hate money." And that's not true, there's value. Josh: I'm just sitting here imagine Russel telling his kids, "We get no value, you do not pay us." Russell: I'm like, I'm killing myself. Josh: To be fair, you do get a tax break. Russell: Yeah. But especially when they're first born, they're cute and you get lots but they're in the selfish space now where you're giving a hundred percent and they're not giving back. Other than they giggle and cute and you're like, "Oh, so cute." But for the most part, you get this time where you're selfish and then it's like, "Oh, I'm serving someone else, but they're serving me." And amazing, then all of a sudden it's a hundred percent service there. And I think that that's a good point. Hank Rearden had only done this thing. And then, he never had a chance to like, a hundred percent serve somebody else and see what that's like. Because the value you get as a parent is when you serve a hundred percent of kids and you see like who they become, that's the value. But it doesn't come from the quid pro quo that you normally get with like, "I'm going to buy this thing or pay for this thing." Josh: Right. Russell: It's like, "I'm gonna serve, and serve, and serve." And eventually hope that someday they turn out to be cool. Josh: Yeah. And that's a super interesting point. And maybe that's why she left that part out of it because she was like, "None of these people would ever have kids-" Russell: And she didn't have kids, so that's a big… that might be the part, she's never seen that. At least not that I'm aware of, I'm pretty sure- Josh: That's crazy. Because going through I'm like, "This book I think would mean so much diff..." So when I first read it, like I said, whenever I first learned about this, back in high school, right. I read it. I hated reading. I publicly declared, and it's actually funny. When I graduated high school, I bought myself a pickup truck, I stood on the top of the pickup truck and I publicly declared to the world, I would never read another book ever again in life. I hated reading. So that's funny because now I'm reading 1200 page books and I've read every one of those books back there. It didn't really take on the same effect as now, being an entrepreneur, being someone at... Like at one point I had five employees and I'm 26 years old. So now I'm reading it and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But if I read it with kids, I feel like that would even give you a completely different perspective on like... How has having kids changed your... Because you're an entrepreneur basically from day one, right? You never really had a job. Right? Russell: I've served tables and stuff, I didn't have a job more than three months. Josh: Okay. So you're, you're a failure in the normal society, right? You can't hold a job, you get fired for... But how's having kids and having to balance... Because man, like, dude, you're running a... ClickFunnels is a billion dollar company. Right? We're allowed to say that? Like that's a thing, right? Like roughly, I'm not off on that. All right. Russell: The value is based what you will pay for so hopefully somebody pays that some day. Josh: So we're going to say a billion dollar company. So you're running this billion dollar company, you've made hundreds of millions of dollars, you've been payed a million dollars an hour from stage before... By the way, big props, congratulations. How has balancing work now with that, with the kids growing up, I feel like now they're at, because you're oldest is what, 12, 14 or 15. Right? So how has that changed the way that you view your work? Do you struggle with that? Like the balance. Russell: Yeah. Especially now with COVID stuff happening. Kids being homeschooled. Because before it was easy to separate because they're going to school, I'm going to here. Separation is easy. Now it's harder because it's they're still home. And it's like, "Oh, should I be there?" It's definitely tough. Yeah. It's interesting. I have so many entrepreneur friends, I always tease them because it's like, who don't have any kids and they're doing amazing things. I'm like, "Yeah. But I'm doing this stuff and I got five kids and a beautiful wife and I got callings in my church." And there's so many things. I hired a trainer, Dave knows a safe trainer. I remember when he started working with us, he said the biggest thing he knows me start working with me is that you'll be shocked what your body can actually endure. I think that most people don't understand what they could actually do. How do you run a company this big and have a family and have a successful marriage and have these... You can do it, and most people don't because they sedate. And like, I don't watch four hours of football a night because I have all these other things. Right. I don't know, it's just you take away the excuse of sedation you can produce so much more than people are able to understand. I don't know. So it's interesting. And then it's been such a weird thing too, with kids, because I think when you first start having kids, you assume they're all going to be like you. Like, "Oh, they're all going to be entrepreneurs." And then I had twins, it was crazy, our first two that came out are twins. Now they're 14, almost 15. It's crazy because I assumed they'd all be the same, the same as me or the same together. And they are so polar opposites. Josh: Yeah, I didn't even know, I just found out today that they were twins. I had no clue. Colette's like, "Yeah they're both turning 15." I'm like, "Wait, what?" Russell: Yeah. They don’t look like each other, they don’t act like each other. One's more entrepreneurial. One's more, if you look at disc profile, I have a DI and we have an SC. Josh: Oh my God. Russell: Introvert, extrovert. All the things are different. And I always thought, you know, my kids are going to be entrepreneurs like me and now I don't think they have to be. It goes back to what we talked about earlier. With my kids, I'm like, "What do you want to do?" And I think some of my kids are very entrepreneurial, a lot of them aren't. I think some of my kids are super smart, hard workers who are going to be amazing at the roles they play in something, they're going to be a huge part of changing somebody's world, but it's not going to be the front person of it. And so it's been interesting watching that and fulfilling and hard and it's all the things wrapped into one. It's an interesting experience, you're going to love it. You should start having kids right away. Josh: Yeah. That's not going to happen. But why though? Russell: Because you should know, it takes time. Josh: Okay. But how long did you go? How long did you wait? Russell: Uh, two? Let's see, we had our 18 year anniversary, the kids are turning 15. So almost three years. We tried earlier, but we had fertility drugs, stuff like that and everything, But yeah, so about probably two years and when started trying. Josh: Yeah. I can't... Kids scare me dude. But it's interesting because like I grew up with six younger siblings. So I was definitely old enough to remember the whole diaper phase and like, you know... Obviously I wasn't a parent with it. And the church that I went to, eight was like average to small amount of kids. A lot of them were like 13 kids, 12 kids, 14 kids, whatever. I think the smallest in our whole church was four, and they were the weird ones. Russell: "You only have four kids? What's wrong with you?" Josh: Right. And so everywhere we went, that's just what it was. So for me, I had that rebellion phase, if you will. I don't want to call it rebellion phase, but where I was like, "I don't want any of this. Why would you... They're expensive and they suck all the time. And I can't go do this." I'm like, "I want to be so filthy read before I go having kids." And I taught Sunday school and was very involved in the church growing up and things like that. So for me it was like, "I want to go build my business, doing that is more fun." The interesting thing about kids. And I told my parents this, I don't remember when it was, but my parents aren't super wealthy or successful when it comes to business or anything like that. But I look at my parents as some of the most successful people that I've ever met in my life, because my mom's favorite... There's little things that my mom told me over and over and over again. And one of her famous lines is, "The only thing I need to know in life is I just need to know that my children walk in truth." Right. And my mom, particularly, and my dad too, like both of them, but I relate it with my mom, cause she'd keep saying it, it's like my mom's definition of success and achievement was, "Do my children walk in truth?" That is what was success to her. And she's like, "Yeah, money would have been great, like all these different things." But that was kind of the pinnacle of success for her is, do my kids walk in truth. And so as I have gone through my own journey of faith, which has been, I mean, it has been rough at times, right? I've watched her struggle with it and freak out because she's like, "I just want..." But that's not her journey to bear, but it is at the same time. And so it's always been interesting, kids are this thing where I feel like once I have them, obviously I'm there for the rest of my life, but I feel like there's this stress or there's this new piece of my life that's unlocked that I've never explored before. I don't know anything about it. And I'm like, afraid isn't the right word, but I'm pushing that off as long as I possibly can because once that's opened then I never get to close it again. And that mystery is almost fun to like look forward to, but at the same time, I get to focus over here. Russell: Essentially I remember thinking about this a lot, especially for the first two years. I was like, "his is so much harder than I thought it was going to be." Flat out, way harder. But also remember feeling and thinking out loud, "This is so much cooler than I ever dreamt it was going to be." Like this double-edged sword. And I was like, "Man, I didn't realize how tired and worn out." And all these things. But then so much better than I thought. It's funny. Cause I had a lot of friends who are like, “well, I want to make money, and then I’ll have kids”. I don't think, I don't know. It's different. I would just have kids, you can do both. It's not impossible. Especially when they're first born, they just sit there. I would spend a year or two and just not- Josh: Right, right, right. Russell: But I wouldn't wait until like, "Oh, I need a million bucks in the bank." I get people all the time, I know people that are broke, that have eight kids. They're not that expensive. Like, Cheerios are not that expensive, if you need to. It's just being willing to be there and be loving and be being present for as much as you can. Another thing that's been interesting, especially now that our kids are going to be teenagers, it's like so much harder. That's harder. Josh: Really that's harder than when they're young. Russell: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Josh: Dave's over here just laughing. Russell: It's different- Josh: Oh gosh. What am I in for Dave? Oh no. Russell: Yeah. The young part is like, "I'm tired." That's a hard part when they're young. When they're older, it's just like, am I messing these kids up, I just want them to be successful. That's the bigger fear. I remember a little thing that gave me some grace, Tom Bilyeu, I heard of this Instagram post about him talking about being a parent, and it was so funny because he's like, "Who here is scared that you're going to eff up your kids?" That was how he would have said it. Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: I would say “mess up”. Who's gonna mess up your kids. And everyone's hands like, "Yeah. I'm scared." He's like, "Guess what?..." I got to make sure I gets right. He's like, "My parents messed me up. You're going to mess your kids up. But guess what? We turned out okay in the end. Just be okay with the fact that you're going to mess your kids up because you are." And I remember, I was like, "Okay, everyone messed up their kids, that's part of it." That's part of the whole journey, that's the journey. And it gave me some grace of just like, "Look, I'm going to do my best. I'm probably going to mess them up." But at the same time you have to have faith, they're going to do their thing and they're going to hopefully make the decisions. And if not, that's why we have God. That's why we have repentance. And just in the kind of leaving it to leave it to him and do your best.

Welcome to part 2 of the 5 part Atlas Shrugged interview! On today’s segment you’ll get to hear Russell and Josh discuss being a producer and how important it is to continually create content. They talk about being a good steward over the ideas that God gives you, and how you should be preparing for even bigger and better ideas. And finally, they explain how “motion is the key”. So enjoy part two of this fun interview and don’t forget to go to tshirtsmackdown.com for your Atlas Shrugged swag! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. All right, my first question for you, is how'd you like the first part of the interview with me and Josh of Atlas Shrugged? I hope you enjoyed it. Today, I'm going to give you guys part two of a five-part interview series. We will pick up after the intro song, we'll pick up where we left off. We'll keep diving into these topics, these concepts. Again, throughout this interview, we talk about religion, we talk about politics, and we talk about all these things through the lens of the Atlas Shrugged book. So with that said, we'll cue up the theme song, we'll come back, we'll go into part two of my interview with Josh Forti about Atlas Shrugged. Josh Forti: Because what I'm trying to figure out, this is open discussion here... I am a pretty motivated, driven person. I never would've described what I was doing as greedy. Russell Brunson: Would you have thought that when you were an athlete, or thought when you were a kid- Josh: Yeah. Russell: ...no. But what is it? Josh: Well, yeah. And that's why I asked you the question. Because I don't know the answer myself. Russell: I feel the same way, because I never... it wasn't until I was reading the book, The Utopia of Greed- Josh: Yeah, yeah. Russell: ...and all of a sudden, I started thinking, all these things we're doing... we call them growth, we call them whatever, which is awesome, but it is... it's a greedy time in your life, right? Josh: Yeah. I wonder what the actual definition of greed is. Russell: Yeah. Josh: I'm going to look this up. We'll see. Definition of greed. Russell: It has a def-... negative connotation in our world today. Josh: Intense and selfish desire for something, especially money, power or food. Russell: Or food. Josh: Well- Russell: There you go. Josh: All right. Money, power or food. Russell: For me, thinking about the lens of wrestling, when I was wrestling, I had a selfish desire for, I wanted to be a state champ, I wanted to be an all-American, I wanted to be a national champ- Josh: But why? Why? Russell: Because I wanted my hand-raising. That was all I thought about, all I dreamt about. I couldn't... I'm a very obsessive person, that's why I don't gamble. Because I was like, I put a quarter in and I win, I'm broke. It doesn't matter how much I started with, it’s gone. And I know that about myself. So when I started wrestling, and I got my hand raised the first time, I was like, that feels good, I want to feel that every day for the rest of my life. And I just went, blinders on, and that's all I did, that was my... and I mean, I wouldn't have thought of it as greedy, but by definition, it's like, you need to focus on these things about yourself. Now I'm in the phase of my life where I'm coaching wrestling, coaching my kids and stuff like that, and it's different, because there's nothing in it for you, except for seeing their hand-raising and that light in their eyes go off, and it's just like, that felt way better than my own. But you don't know that until you're in that phase. Josh: Yeah. Did having kids change that for you at all? Did it help solidify or give you a different perspective on that shift from greedy to- Russell: I think... maybe not so much solidify as much as I'm experiencing that in multiple parts of my life, not just the business part. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: A lot in part, you think about our success stories and our business are our children, the children of ClickFunnels, whatever you want to say, they're the people that have come off it. So I think I'm experiencing it now with them, and it's been interesting and fun and... yeah. Josh: How long did it take you to finish the book? Russell: I think about two months. Josh: Oh, wow. Russell: You read it way faster than I did. Josh: Well, it's one of those things... it's funny because my mom was like, have you even read the book? I'm like, what do you mean, you made me read in high school. And I went back and I was like, oh, I didn't actually read... I knew the book, so I assumed I had read it. And then I realized it was 1200 pages and I was like, I don't remember reading a 1200-page book. I feel like I would've remembered that- Russell: I got to do it right now, because Russell's going to be talking about. Josh: Right. And that's exactly what happened. So it was like, oh, we want to do this, cool. And I could've sat down and had the conversation without reading the book. Because I knew the concept, the premise. And so then I went through it and... every night, two-and-a-half speed, couldn't sleep, I'd get up and like, oh, man, it's 3:00 in the morning. Close the book, go back in there. So- Russell: Can I interject? Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because there is something you started on that I want to make sure we don’t miss, because I think it was... you started leading real good and there is somewhere I want to wrap it because it’s an open loop in my head now. Josh: Okay, okay, okay. Russell: You started talking about how you agree on the left side of social helping people, but not the way that they do it- Josh: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Russell: ...is that how you said it? Okay, so- Josh: I agree with what they want to do- Russell: Yes. Josh: ...i don't agree with how they want to do it. Russell: Okay, so, this is something that was powerful. So after I read the book, I was geeking out, and I'm like, who is this Ayn Rand, I want to see. So I started searching her and I found an interview she did on Donahue, 1980, three months after her husband passed away. And it was a fascinating interview- Josh: Oh, dang. Russell: ...she's atheist, does not believe in a god, all these things like that, so- Josh: She even made a statement about how part of the reason she wrote the book was to prove that religion was fake and to destroy all belief in any form- Russell: So once again- Josh: Super different. Russell: ...this is not the Bible for me, this is just... stimulating book that got my mind spinning. One thing she said during the interview that was so cool, because Donahue's like, "So based on this, you believe that we should all be producers and greedy and keep all our money and we should never... we shouldn't help anybody." And she said, "No, no, no, that's not what I said." She's like, "I never said that." She said, "What I did say, is that it should not be the government coming to you with their guns saying, 'Give me your 50% of your taxes.'" That's what's messed up. You think about this, if you give a gift... if someone comes to you and gives you a gun like, give your friend a gift, are you actually giving them a gift? No, you're not. Josh: Yeah. Russell: If you don't pay the taxes, they put you in jail. That's the thing. She said, "People should go and support people on their own." This comes back to... this is the whole thing we talked about before, the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, unless he yields to the enticing of the Holy Spirit. Us yielding saying, "Hey, I have all this money, I should go help other people with this." That's God saying, you should not be greedy, use what you've blessed with and help other people's lives. Right? Them coming to you with a gun saying, "Pay your taxes or go to jail," is not you giving a gift. It's them taking it from you and giving it away. So you're not a better person because you did it, right? And then we get into the whole depth of... this is the government now who's the worst run organization in the history of all time, which… I won’t even rant on that. You want to trust them with the money, right? So I just want to share a practical example, because people are like, "Well, you wouldn't give money if you didn't..." whatever. Right now, I'm taxed more than 50%, so more than half my income goes to Uncle Sam. He's doing whatever the crap they do with it. Josh: Well, you just need some Cash Flow Tactics. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Shameless plug. Russell: Yeah. Anyway, I have no idea, I don't actually do my taxes. That's the tax bracket. But then you look at... when you yield to the enticing of the Holy Spirit. So there was a time when my friend Stu McLaren is like, "Hey, we're building schools in Kenya, and this is mission and we believe in it, will you help?" It wasn't greedy Russ like, "I'm going to help and this is going to be awesome." Josh: Yeah. Russell: I felt something, I was like, "Oh my gosh. That is a great cause. Yeah, how can I support you?" In that process you can see, here's pictures of Stu and Amy in Kenya, we've been to Kenya four times now. We donated money, we built schools... that is a gift, versus give us money so we can go do something with it, right? And then a couple years later, I heard about Operation Underground Railroad, and I was like, oh my gosh, and I felt the spirit saying, "This is a good cause, you should serve, you should do this thing." And I put time and energy and money into this thing. We raised multiple millions of dollars now to save children from sex slavery. And not everyone's willing to do that. Again, there's a segment of people who will... it comes back to, the natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever. A lot of people never get off the greed boat. But most people, as you start making more and more money, you look at anybody, you look at Bill Gates, look at Elon Musk, anyone who's making much money, what do they do with their money? Eventually they start giving it to charities or helping people... all these things, because there's that transition point where you feel that, you hear the voice, you hear God, whatever you want to call it. You should be serving more. And I think... I know that if my tax went from 50% to 20% to 10% or whatever that thing was, I would and could give so much more, and everybody could. Right now, half the money goes to organizations that... what's happening with the money? Do we know? Do we see any ledger of what's happening? No, it's insane. Josh: Even Bill Maher, who... do you know Bill Maher? Russell: I know who he is, I don't follow him- Josh: Stupid... super left, right? Definitely would not align with our political views, or your... or my political views. But even him is like, I have no idea what my tax dollars are going to. I have no idea where my millions of dollars I pay every- Russell: Isn't that scary? Josh: Isn't that crazy. It's wild. Only the government. It's crazy. Russell: And then they go like... sorry, this is a plug for OUR and Tim Ballard. Tim Ballard, I know does not take a salary. His payment for being CEO of Operation Underground Railroad and risking his life day in and day out is zero dollars they pay him. He funds it himself. All the money he makes is from his books, his speaking, other things he does, externally to pay for himself, because he doesn't want to take money from an organization saving kids. Can you say that about any of the government- Josh: Yeah. Russell: ...no, it's insane. It's... anyway. But, yeah. So for me, it's like- Josh: Somebody's going to mention that Trump takes a zero dollar salary in there. That's not what we're talking about. Russell: But for me, it's like, that's my big thing, understanding that I think there's this blend of left and right. If we're not producing, the fact that I'm going to wake up every morning and kill myself, even though I have more money than I'm ever going to need, now we have 400 plus people who have full-time jobs here... excuse me, full-time jobs here at ClickFunnels. It's 144,000 people who have active ClickFunnels accounts. Each of those people, if they had one employee, it's 144,000 jobs. If they had two to three, that means... you're looking at... it's probably half a million to a million jobs have been created because of ClickFunnels, because we get up every day and we're chasing something, we're producing, producing, producing, right? If you take away incentives of that... I'd have to lay off half my staff, which then... and then everything starts disappearing really quickly. Where it's like, if they took that away, now we can go and how much more could we do? We did the OUR... we talked about OUR and showed the documentary at Funnel Hacking Live, and since then, four or five dozen people who were in our community showed the OUR documentary at their events and made money, and it's like this ripple effect keeps growing, growing, growing, versus the other side where it's just... it shrinks and- Josh: Okay, so, I want to get non-specifically political here for a second with this and... I don't want to say play the devil's advocate, I just want to understand your thoughts on this. So the argument on the other side, if you will, the people that are more traditionally higher tax bracket, you should be taxed even higher. We want to take more of your money away because it's this. Basically, the thought process is like... listen, you have donated your money to Kenya and to Operation Underground Railroad and things like that, but guess what, there's probably people here in your own community, like in Boise, for example, right, or wherever these entrepreneurs are, that you have millions and millions of dollars, there's people that are homeless. There's people who can't afford medical payments, or there's people who genuinely need help. And so the argument is, yeah, you've given some, but you have so much of it, you could do that and be taxed higher. We could take even more of your money and your life wouldn't change at all, and we're also like... not talking about your business money, we're only talking about profit, we're only going to take that part of it away. And so the argument on the other side is, if collectively... and I'm just going to make up a number here. Let's just say there's 10,000 entrepreneurs like you in America, that have millions of dollars or billions of dollars... I know you don't have billions.... billions of dollars, we could take all that money, and hypothetically, we could solve a lot of these issues. We could tax the top 10 richest people, whatever. Why doesn't that work? Or, A, I guess it's a two-part question. A, are you... A, why doesn't that work, and B, what is your solution for that, if any? What's your perspective, your view on how that would help? Russell: Yeah, I think- Josh: Or can you not help everybody? Russell: This is the fun part, politics, right? It's tough, and I'll preface this before we dive into the actual question... it's tough because there's good on both sides and there's bad on both sides. That's the hardest thing, right? And so that's the hard thing, is you can argue both ways. Let's say me as an entrepreneur, because I only know experiences through my own self, right? Josh: Right. Russell: I know what I pay in taxes every single year. I know how much goes away, I know how much I make. And it's tough because the more... the less you make for the more you work, the less incentivized you are to keep working. If my take-home was $100 grand a year, I'd be like, why am I killing myself? I could work three hours a day and make that, so why would I keep doing this stuff? If there's no reward, then it's hard, right? It's like, what's the purpose of doing any of this stuff? And it'd be really easy to then shrink back, and the company shrinks, employees shrink, everything shrinks because there's no incentive for us to risk everything. It's a risk reward thing. That's a big part of it. How do you solve it, I don't know, I don't think the solution is the government to come in with a gun and saying, give us half your money so we can go solve this problem. I think it's, man, what are the things in you're interested in saving? What are the things that touches your heart, what are the things that you're inspired to actually help? For me it's Kenya, for me it's this, for me it's... there's other things that we give money to that I don't talk about publicly. But there's things that... what are the things that I care about? Let me focus there. Everyone's got different agendas. I had Matt Maddix, someone who I... Caleb Maddix is the father, he's super awesome guy. He came to me and he's like, "Hey, my mission is to save these kids off the streets and this stuff..." all these kinds of things. I'm like, "That's amazing," he's like, "Can you help me?" I'm like, "That's not my calling. My calling are these things here. That's your calling, dude, I respect it, I support it, I'll help give money or whatever I can do to help. But that's your calling. God gave you that. That was the thing that you were given, that's the mantel you're in charge of." And everyone's got a different mantel. So your calling might be different from mine, people come to me all the time like, "Oh, that charity's cool, but I support this." Like, good, I don't care who you support. Everyone's got different callings and they're all good. So I think we should be able to say, what's the thing that speaks to our heart that we're passionate about, and that's what we should focus our time and our energy and our money on, not... again, don't come with the guns saying, "Give me 50% because I think it should go over here." Josh: But what about the people though, that... let's pretend, and I have... guys, I love Elon Musk, I'm going to use him purely as an example. Clearly I have no idea what he does with his money. But let's pretend. So, Elon Musk and all his money... what if he wasn't charitable? Should the government, or anybody, be able to come in and be like, "Yo, you have so much money." Or Zuckerberg, or whatever. "You have so much money. We're going to... you got..." I don't know, he's worth $90 billion. Let's say he has $3 billion in liquid cash. I'm just... hypotheticals here. "You got $3 billion here literally sitting here. We're going to take that away and we're going to give you... you can have $500 million if it, but we're going to take $2.5 billion and give it to people who actually need it." Do you think that there needs to be some overriding law or power or something that's like, "Yo, you can't just hoard. You got to... if you have more than enough, you got to go and give it back." Or do you think that's a personal choice? Russell: I think it's a personal choice. Think about, how many jobs has he created? He's giving that stuff, and this is the reward for this risk and reward side of thing. And his $3 billion, let's say, what's his next thing? He's not just going to sit on it, that's stupid. For him, for anybody, right? Josh: Right. Russell: He's going to go invest in the next thing, he's going to create more jobs, do more things, to stimulate the economy in different ways. He's going to go and start PayPal, and then he's going to start Tesla, and then he's going to start sending rocket ships to space. A producer's going to produce, because they want to produce. It's the art for them. So let them create art because the byproduct of art is jobs, it is stimulation of the economy, all those things happening. And so for me, building funnels is my art. I couldn't care less about the revenue that comes from it. I need the revenue to be able to hire the teams and the people and the things that we need to be able to continue the art, to pay Zuckerberg, to show my ads on the thing. All these things are part of it. So I think, yeah, if he's sitting on $3 billion, it's just sitting there, but producers don't typically do that. They're reinvesting, they're doing stuff with it that creates more. Josh: I want you to come up with a story on the spot, go. Which you're pretty good at. But I want you to talk about that. Producers produce. I think that might be one of the... actually, I'm curious to know... I feel like that is one of the most misunderstood things about the ultra-wealthy. The people that are actually... not like, I inherited $200 million because I'm a trust fund baby. But the actual Elon Musks of the world, the Jeff Bezoses of the world, the Russell Brunsons of the world, what ultimately drives you to go keep doing more? You have all of the money. And I know... we talked about the... you want to contribute back part, but there's a million different ways you can contribute. Why do you do the things that you do? Because I feel like one of the misunderstood things is... and this is something I don't know how to explain it to people that don't know it, I told my fiance, I was like, "You should listen to Russell." Because I'm like, "I think like that." You know what I mean? If you don't understand me, maybe you could see it from somebody else and know that I'm not weird. I mean, I am, but there's other people like me, that think like this. But it's like, how would you explain to somebody that Elon Musk is going to do what Elon Musk does. He's Elon Musk. Zuckerberg, or whoever- Russell: Hank Reardon. Josh: Right, right, whoever. Russell Brunson. You're going to do what you do, because that's who you are. You build things, and the result of... because you need to build things, you need resources. So you're like, man, if I want to go build this thing over here, I need $100 million, or I need $10 million. I'm just going to go make that money, and I'm going to go do it here. And you're basically just organizing things. You're either creating or you're organizing. How does that mentality work? I don't think the average person understands that. And I think that's one of the big misconceptions of... because this goes back to the greed thing, and the reason I really don't like the word greed is because there is so much misconception about it, although I will say the definition says that it's probably that. Russell: It is a negative word... the connotation's super negative. Josh: But it's like, you don't exclusively do it because you're greedy. You did it because you don't know how to do anything else. You know what I mean? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Sorry, sorry, Alex Charfen… We can't turn it off, and we don't understand why anybody would want to. Russell: Yeah, yeah. Josh: Like that, that's the thing. Russell: If you think about it, it's creation. Why was man put on this earth? Were we put on Earth to wake up, watch TV, go back to bed? No, we have creative powers in our body, that’s how husband and wife get together and have children and create. That's the mission on Earth, we're always creating. Any of us, you get married, you create something, we need a house, where are we going to live at? And you create things to be able to get a job, to be able to organize matter, to be able to make, oh, we have a house now we can move into. And that's the thing, so many people though, they become... the word that Garrett White uses best, sedated. Where there's pain, and so because the pain, they're sedated, so they just sit in the moment of, they don't want the pain. Because the pressure is too heavy for the one point, it hurts so bad, they say, I have to stop. Versus what we talk about, over the last six years, I get destroyed, then increased capacity, then destroyed. And so there's two sets of people, there's the people that aren't producing, they're sedating, because they're afraid of the pain, nervous of the pain, trying to hide from the pain, I get that. There's been seasons of my life where I've felt pain and I just want to hide, and I have. And then there's seasons of your life, at least hopefully for most... and I wish everybody could experience it, because the opposite of it, when you're in the creation zone, when you're creating, you're doing it, it's hard, it's a different... both of them are hard, they're different hards, right? One is there's so much fear, there's so much just trying to get out of the pain, and the other one is just... you create to create, right? You can ask my team, we build a funnel, and for me, it's just like, look at this thing we created. We create a product or an event or whatever, and it's like, the creation of the thing, and sharing it with people, that's... I don't know. And I think it's the same way when I was wrestling, that was my art at the time, and I didn't want to do anything besides wrestling. When to tournaments and tournaments, I'm like, what's the next tournament, what's the next thing, kept doing that, kept doing that, my entire life, because that was the art. After awhile, you just want to keep performing what you're doing, right? And I think that if you can get out of that sedation that most people live in... I say the majority of- Josh: And I think that's the issue, that for you and I, we create. Entrepreneurs, funnel hackers, free thinkers of the world, they go out there and they create because it's like, that's what we do. Russell: Yeah. Josh: I don't think that's how most of the world operates. Russell: Yeah. Did you... initially, right, when they're born, they have that seed, that seed of whatever we call it, growth, greed, whatever, right? Something happens in life where they get the pain and they sedate because it's easier. I think that's one of the biggest problems, and I am anti-drug, anti everything that causes sedation, because most of the world, I see... especially in entrepreneurial community, where people could be doing so much more, but instead there's sedating with drugs or alcohol or weed or whatever, because it's like, let me take the pressure of myself. And man, what a tragedy. You could be producing and changing so many people's lives, but it's like, I need an outlet. The outlet causes sedation, it takes you out of your ability to produce. I think the majority of people, that's what they do. It drives me crazy, I see all the conversation on Facebook of... there's entrepreneur events where people come together, they literally... there's sessions, we talk about what mushrooms they use to hallucinate... it just drives me nuts. You guys are sedating to get out of this pain as opposed to stepping into the pain, creating and changing people's lives. So I'm very vocal, anti all that kind of stuff, because I think so many people, that's what they slip back into. One of the greatest blessings of my religion that I believe is I don't have these tools to sedate that most people use. And so my outlet is creation. If my outlet was drinking, if my outlet was drugs, if my outlet was these other things, I wouldn't have been able to produce, but I don't, so my outlet's got to be what, what is it? Production, let's create something amazing. And I think too many people let themselves off the hook and just, oh, I can create or maybe watch TV, or I'm going to go eat, or I'm going to go... if your outlet is something that sedates you, that's taking you out of your creative zone, I think most people slip back because it's easier, it's cheaper, it doesn't cause the pain. Garrett White's whole mission, Wake-Up Warriors, waking men up from that sedated state that most of our society are stuck into. That’s why I relate to him so well, because I see it in people I love, that I care about, like, you're sedated, if we could break you out of that and get you into production, you could change the world. Josh: Yeah, I think it's interesting. So, I have a coach who I think did that for me... I mean, I don't use Garrett White, which... that's an intense man, oh my word. Garrett, if you're listening, I would love to talk to you. Come on the show. I've always plugged him. Hey, if I'm ever going to get a guest... Elon Musk, if you're listening. Anyway. But I have a coach, Katie Richardson. You know Katie. Katie is... outside of my immediate family, and Leah, obviously, top three people that changed my life, Katie Richardson and Russell Brunson are two of those people that are in that top thing, right? So Katie is someone that I work with one-on-one. I don't think I was ever sedated in the sense of what you're talking about, but the opposite of sedation is being alive. Really, truly, coming alive, understanding who you are, what you are put on this earth here to do. And so the thing that I struggled with for the longest time, even from the beginning days of this entrepreneur, is right and wrong. I didn't want to do the wrong thing. I didn't want to tick anybody off, because that would be bad. Like, oh, man, you don't want to get into a fight, because that's bad. I don't want to make too much money because that might be bad. Or I don't want to say the wrong thing because it might be bad. So I lived in this black and white, is it right or is it wrong. Katie came along, and she's like, "Josh, there is no right and wrong." There is in the sense of moral right and wrong... I'm not going to go into that concept, but... universal truth, I do believe there's absolute truth. But in the sense of our everyday life, it's not so much is it the right thing or the wrong thing, it's what are you going to choose to do. But you can only know what you're going to choose if you're alive, if you know who you are, and you know what you're put on this earth to do. And that's why... it's funny, you might... I think you may know this sorry. So my brother dies, helicopter crash, beginning of 2019, kind of wrecked my whole life, ending up selling the company, sold the business to an investor, business partner took over, and Leah and I took off on our own. And it's supposed to be this four-month long trip where I was going to disconnect and figure out life and everything like that. And Christmas time, it's about a week before Christmas, and we're in the Philippines, in the middle of absolutely freaking nowhere. The nearest airport, hospital, anything, is six hours away. Absolute middle of nowhere. And Leah gets an intestinal eating parasite. She gets super, super sick. Can't sit up, can't keep food down. I'm like, oh my gosh, we're in the Philippines, middle of nowhere. So we go to the emergency room, and we get there and it's a cart... it's like a piece of plywood with two-inch foam, and there's no doors on the bathroom, no toilet seat, there's ants crawling... it's terrible, right? And so long story short, we end up having to cut our trip two months early, we lose tens of thousands of dollars in deposits getting her home or whatever. And I have no business at this point. We're supposed to be going for two months longer. I was supposed to fly home... I was supposed to come to Funnel Hacking Live, that was going to be our coming home. And I find myself in the basement of my girlfriend's mom's house, the night before Christmas, going like, "What am I doing with my life? How did I end up here?" I go through the process like, okay, I need a coach. And I go through and I interview a bunch of different coaches and I end up choosing Katie. And I'm like, "All right, Katie, you're going to solve all my business problems for me. You're going to help me make all this money, you're going to help me build this million-dollar business," and everything like that. And so the very, very first call, I'll never forget, the very first question, she's like, "All right. Vent. I know you need to." Just brain dump, vent for 20, 30 minutes straight. I'm like, "What's the answer?" And she goes, "Josh, who are you?" I was like, "Really? That's where we're going to start this whole conversation?" I just paid you 60 grand? And looking back now, that... and I do have a full circle with this. Looking back now, figuring out who I was gave me my permission to go do what I was called to do, without the fear of what anybody else thought. And I'm not trying to intentionally piss anybody off. I don't want people to actually hate me. But I'm so certain in what I'm doing and knowing who I am, that I know I'm a contributor to society. I know that I make the world better with what I do because I believe that everybody, deep down inside, God has given talents. And I believe that the thing that, whatever it is that you're good at, that you like to do or whatever, that's the talent that God gave you, and you have a choice on how you're going to go out and use that, and I believe that we should use that to serve Him. The problem is, is that I don't think... I think an overwhelming majority of the world has no idea who they are or what they're called to be. And because of that, the people like you or Elon or whoever, the producers of society, that know who they are, what their talents are, what they're called to do, things like that... you've seen my growth. You've watched me transition from this crazy little kid to this... that came by learning who I was and how I was contributing in the world and doing what I was called here and what I was put here for. So when you talk about sedation, I feel like that's the issue of, you're sedated, and so they don't even know who they are. They don't even know how to tap into it, they don't know how to understand it. Because of that, they look at someone like you, they look at someone like me, and they go, "Well, you're preventing me. You're taking away my ability to go do something, because you're taking all the money. You're taking all the opportunity. You have a category and the king of the market, so I can't go and do it then." To those people, this concept of, because you're successful I can't be successful, what is your response there? How do you interpret that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: How do you help someone shift and be like, just because I did it doesn't mean you can't. Russell: Yeah. It's interesting because... it's funny because for me it's such a foreign thing to understand that. I see that so many times entrepreneurs where, it's that mentality of there's not enough money, not enough opportunities or resources, whatever. You know this, I know this, and the bigger problem I have is there are so many opportunities, every single day... it's not that there's not enough opportunities, it's there's so many, it's like, how do you... I think when people start understanding that, look around. Learn some basic skills. The original DotComSecrets book I wrote because I'm like, if anyone took these principles, looked at any business, you could apply it and boom, it just works. It's magic. There's not a business on this... Adam’s Eye Care, I can see right there out the window... I can take DotComSecrets principles and blow that company up overnight. And so if you have these tools, you could do anything, you could sell phones, you could sell watches, you could sell books, you could sell podcasts. I think when people start understanding that, it's just education, they don't understand it. I have friends before who are like, “life's tough right now, there are no opportunities”. And I'm just like, what? There are so many opportunities, but you have to have the skillset that actually... can produce it. I think a big frustration obviously, I have, I think you have as well, is... and we talked about this a little tonight, with my kids... a lot of the things we were equipped with are school... the school system doesn’t equip you to be able to capitalize on opportunities. It doesn't, unless you're like, I want to be a doctor. Cool, this is the process, now you can capitalize on being a doctor or being a dentist, or whatever that traditional path is. To be able to walk in and make it rain somewhere, those skillsets aren't found in school. And you think about in any business, there's a couple personalities. There's the entrepreneur who starts it. Then there's the managers who are managing the people, there's the technicians who are doing the thing, and there's the rainmakers who come in and make money. If you learn that skillset... how do you become a rainmaker? How do you go in, and you can plug in any business, any opportunity, and you can turn it into money? And every door you walk past, there's opportunity. There's infinite, every human you see there's opportunity, right? People have to learn how to take the talent and learn how to market the talent. God gives us all different things. Some people... Kaelin Poulin, God gave her a gift to be able to help women lose weight. But it wasn't until she learned how to market that that it was actually now... now, the opportunity is huge. They’ve got, I don't know, 100 employees at her company, millions of women they've served across the world. Taking your God-given talent, learning how to make it rain, putting those two things together, now, unlimited opportunities. So I think a lot of times, we're given... and that's why I'm so loud about my mission, I try to share so much, because I believe that God's given everyone a calling. Says in the Scriptures, many are called, but few are chosen. Everybody's called. Everybody gets a calling. Everybody gets that tap on the shoulder. Everyone gets the opportunity. No matter where you're born, where you're... everyone gets the opportunity, you're called. Most people don't do it, or they don't know how to do it, because they have this talent, this hobby, this thing... and then what happens? They sedate, they hide, or they search. And if you search, you find the answer, and it's like, oh my gosh, now I can make this change the world. Josh: But do you think everybody has that talent though? Obviously, there's only one Russell Brunson. But I have discussions with my mom a lot. I have a great relationship with my mom. My mom always tells me, she's like, "Josh, not everybody's you. Not everybody thinks like you. Not everybody has to drive like you. Not everybody has the confidence like you. Not everybody has the..." and I'm like, you don't have to. You can do the same things, just in your own way. Russell: And everyone's got a different view of success, too. Josh: Right. Russell: One of my first mentors taught me that... when I launched my first mastermind group, he pulled me aside and he's like, "Your mastermind group's going to fail if you try to put your version of success on all those people." And I was like, "What do you mean?" He's like... it was funny, because he was in the room and he's like... I can't say names because some of you may know someone. He's like, "you see that guy, you know why he’s in the room?" I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "He wants to hear himself talk. That's why he's here. And if I try to force him to do something, he's not going to do it. That guy right there? He's here because he wants to hang out with the group and network people. You? You're here because you want to steal everybody's ideas, right?" He's like, "If you try to launch a mastermind, your goal is to build a $100 million company, you try to put that, your values on the people, you're going to make them all fail." And that was a big a-ha for me, everyone's got a different vision of success. Maybe your brother, someone, your sister... family member, may not think like you or be like you, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean they have to change a million people's lives to change the world. It could be they're a mom, and they can be the best mom in the world and they change their kid's life, that's a calling. Josh: And that's what I want you to touch on. I want you to expand upon that. Because I feel like... man, I hear so many arguments, I'm trying to figure out which one fits best here. But, "Josh, we need the plumbers of the world." Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? We need the people who will come in vacuum the carpet. We need the people that'll just do the mediocre tasks and that are not important, and that'll do those in and out and in and out and in and out. And, yeah, that. Because I feel like... how do I say this. I believe that a majority of the people in this world are not living up to their true potential. A massive... overwhelming majority are not- Russell: I don't think anyone is, to be honest. I don't think I am. Josh: Right. Russell: Yes, so, yes, 100%. Josh: But, you're living far more potential like the average person is, right? And how I look at is, I go, hey, listen, not everybody can do what you do or what I do, or whatever. Okay... how do I bring it around so it’s more… clear? I’m going to use a political aspect of things, because I think that's something we can all understand. Hey, poor people, victim mentality people... that's a controversial... you know what I'm saying. But victim mentality people, or poor people, they don't think like that, or maybe they didn't have as good a schooling, or maybe they didn't have as good an education, whatever. They don't have the same understanding that you do. So shouldn't we help them see that they can go and achieve more? Or should they... is their version of success... what am I trying to ask? Russell: The answer's yes, we should be, and that's what we're doing. I heard some of the... before, they're like, "Well, Russell, you have a $50,000 or $100,000 mastermind group, I can't afford that, that's not fair." I'm like, "Yeah, but I also do a podcast two to three times a week, every single week for six years. I've written three books you can get for 10 bucks, or you can get them for free." There's levels of it. The thing is there's value everywhere and if you pick it up, it increases... and you actually apply it? I'm a big believer that God gives all of us stewardship over things. He'll give you an idea, he'll give me an idea, he'll give anybody an idea, or desire. Here's some desire for you. You look at these kids who are struggling, but they get desire to play basketball and then they become Michael Jordan, or whoever... the people, right, because God gives them desire, or give them ideas, or talents. I'm a big believer in my business life, as I've been doing this journey now for 18 plus years, is that I got ideas, and a lot of the ideas I didn't do anything with. But some of them I took, I got the idea, and I'm not naïve to think, oh, I came up with this great idea. These are blessings from God, he's like, here's an idea, let's see if you're going to be a good steward with it. I get the idea, and if I do something with it, He's like, "Oh my gosh, Russell's a good steward of ideas, let me give him another idea." And if I don't do something with it, He's like, "All right, let me give it to somebody else." All the stuff is happening that would've happened without... somebody would've taken it. But I was a good steward of the thing and so I got blessed with another one and another one and another one. And I think that's a big part of it. I don't think that God... I do think that He puts us all on different spots to start with- Josh: Okay, that's a fascinating concept. Russell: 100%. He's giving us ideas or desires, things like that, and He's watching, are you going to be a good steward with it? If you are, I'll give you more, if you are, I'm going to give you more. So people can go from the worst of the worst and become the best in the world, people can start the best in the world and be horrible. Because what do you do with the things you're given stewardship over? Josh: So, what you're saying here, which is actually a fascinating concept, is that... I'm going to use the idea for ClickFunnels for example. The idea for ClickFunnels wasn't yours, per se. Russell: Do you know how many people were trying to build a funnel software when we built ClickFunnels? Josh: I'm sure a lot. Russell: All my friends were. Everybody was. Josh: So you have this idea that is essentially open for anybody... anybody could go and take advantage of this idea, you just... you're saying God put this idea in your head... and he probably put this idea in 100 peoples' heads, or 500... 10,000 peoples' heads or whatever. But you're like, I was the one who answered the calling to be, okay, I'm actually going to take this idea and do something with it. And so because of that, it's not that you took it away from anybody else... anybody could've done it, you're just the one who went out and actually just chose to do it and bring it to reality. Russell: Yup. 100%. Josh: Okay. Russell: There's a... I wish... somebody shared it to me and I haven't read the book. There's a book that tells a story... there's an author who had an idea for a book, sat down and started writing it, and someone's going to know it... it's a famous book, people would know this, I guarantee someone on this chat knows this. Josh: Somebody comment below when you here it, what it is. Russell: The author's writing the book, and then stops, runs out of time, forgets about it. And then six years later, this new book comes out, becomes a New York Times bestselling book, buys the book, starts reading, and is like, "This is the book that I was supposed to write." And it was like, oh my gosh, I didn't take stewardship of the idea, I stopped, and so God gave it to somebody else. It's the same book, right, it's just I didn't finish it. And I 100% believe that. I think it could be an idea, it could be desire, it could be a million things, we all have these different gifts of the spirit, that are given to us, and they sit back and watch and see what you're going to do with it. Josh: I feel like that could give a lot of people permission to go out and do stuff, too, right there. That viewpoint. Because one of the things that I struggled with early on, which, to a certain extent, I think I still struggle with a little bit, not nearly what I used to... why me? Not in a bad way of, oh, man, why do I... but why do I get these cool opportunities? I live a pretty good life, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, why do I get to have this conversation and not somebody else? Why am I the first person that gets to sit down with Russell Brunson and talk anything related to politics, ever? But it's like, that concept of simply because I chose to go do it. I chose to be the person that was capable of having this conversation, and became that person. And I think that because of that, what you just said right there, gives... to get people permission, you're not taking away from anybody else, and you're not inherently special. You are in your own way, but you're not... it wasn't... you're not the only person that could've built ClickFunnels. Russell: I'm shockingly average. You ask my wife, ask my parents... Russell is shockingly average. Josh: And you're actually super awkward to meet for the first time. Russell: Yeah. Josh: You know the first time... you remember the first time... I think I actually told you this, the first time I met you? Russell: Remind me. Josh: Okay, the first time I met you was at Grant Cardone’s 10X, the very first one. Russell: Okay. Josh: At the time, Grant had hired our team to do Instagram stuff. And this was super, super early on. I was dead broke. I couldn't afford to go to that conference if I wanted to. But because we were doing Instagram stuff, he gave us tickets. And we saw you get offstage and we're like, "Dude, I bet you if we run right now we can meet Russell." So we run downstairs and sure enough, there you are, coming down. And I walk up to you and I'm like, "Russell, oh my gosh, huge fan." And you're like, "Hey. Thanks." And we're like, oh, okay. We're like, "Can we get a picture?" You're like, "Um, yeah, I guess." So I go and normally when you go and take a picture, you put your arm around him, and things like that. You just literally just stood there. And I was like, I guess we're not doing that. And so there's this picture of me in… Russell: I gotta see this picture. Josh: I'll find it. I'll vox it to you. We're sitting there, I'm like... so, guys, Russell is- Russell: Is shockingly average. Josh: Is shockingly average, apparently. But back to the conversation, I remember what I was trying to ask. That was the very first time I met you. I was like, oh, man, I can be a millionaire, too. Russell: Before... I just want to... when I got started, this whole business, it was me and then I hired two of my buddies to come work for me, because they were the only people who cared what I was talking about. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And we're all working on this business, and I remember one of my buddies pulled me aside one day, and said, "The only difference between us two and you?" I said, "No." He said, "The only difference is you're in momentum, you're moving forward, so these opportunities keep coming to you because you're moving, moving, moving, moving." He's like, "We're sitting back here doing the thing, there's no opportunities coming to us because we're not moving." I think what you need to understand is when you're moving in forward, people are like, "Oh, you're lucky you came up with ClickFunnels." I'm like, "Do you know how many funnels I launched before ClickFunnels?" Over a 150. This is not 150 ads that are “create funnel in ClickFunnels, oh, that's a funnel”. It was me coming up with an idea, hiring a designer, writing a sales letter, putting the product together, putting the pages in FrontPage, uploading them through FTP, getting a shopping cart, connecting them 150 times. It took us three months on average through each one. 150 times before we came up with ClickFunnels. I was just moving forward, over and over and over and over and over while everyone else was sitting around waiting. Motion is the key. Josh: Yeah. Russell: The opportunities come. This is what I'm talking about with being a good steward. God gave me an idea for ZipBrander. Do you remember ZipBrander? No one does. That was the first idea and I was like, oh my gosh, ZipBrander. I found a guy in Romania, I paid him 20 bucks to build the software. I created, I got a thing... a header designed and a headline and a thing and I launched it, and I made 400 bucks. And then the next idea was this thing called Article Spider, do you remember the Article Spider? Josh: No. Russell: No one does. I paid someone a couple hundred bucks, I did that, I launched, I made 1700 bucks, and I was like, oh my gosh... Four Hundred Fortunes was number three. And then the next, and the next, and I could show you guys, I did this, I wrote them all... I went back in the Way Back Machine, I found all of them. Thing after thing after thing after thing. Idea after idea. The ideas pop in there, I execute on them, try and try, each one got better and better and better and better, and eventually, God's like, "All right, you're capable, you're a good steward, here's ClickFunnels, let's go with it." If you were to give me that initially, I wouldn't know what to do. It's the momentum, it's the motion that makes you worthy of the calling. And if you're not in momentum, if you're not moving forward, you're never going to get the calling. Many are called, but few are chosen.

Welcome to the first episode in a special 5 part series. Over the course of these next 5 episodes, you’ll get to hear an interview between Russell Brunson and Josh Forti about the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. But this interview is much more than just them talking about the book, they are actually discussing business, religion, and politics (a subject Russell doesn’t talk about often) as they pertain to the concepts in the book. In this first section, you’ll get to hear the introduction and the basis for how the entire conversation will flow. The first main topic of the book, and the main concept for this episode is greed. Is it bad? Can it be good? Are we born with it? Can we change? So listen in to part one of this unique interview and start reading “Atlas Shrugged” (just read it, the movies aren’t great), so you can be ready for part 2! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And right now, I have a treat for you. Over the next five episodes, I'm going to be taking you in behind the scenes of an interview that I did with Josh Forti about the book, Atlas Shrugged. And some of you guys have read Atlas Shrugged, some of you haven't. Some of you know the premise, some of you don't. And I want to preface this by saying I do not believe in everything taught in the Atlas Shrugged book. I love a lot of it. It talks about producers versus consumers, the looters and the takers versus those in society who are the creators. Right? And there's a lot of things I strongly align with. There's also things that I don't strongly align with. And so I love the book, one of my favorites I've ever read. And so that's the first thing. Number two is, as I finished the book, I remember Josh Forti, who's one of our funnel hackers, he wanted to do the interview with me and I was just like, "I don't have time for interviews." And we're getting closer and closer to the election, we talked on Facebook. We were posting some comments and I was like, "You know what? The interview that I would actually love to do would be about Atlas Shrugged, looking at the whole political thing as it's happening right now and the elections and everything, through the lens of Atlas Shrugged. That'd actually be fascinating for me," because I don't typically, as you know, talk about politics. Right? I do talk about religion, but I don't talk about politics. That's not something I typically go into, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at politics from the lens of Atlas Shrugged. And so in this interview series, it's a lot of fun. We talk about producers versus consumers. We talk about the left and the right. We talk about some political things. Now Josh, just so you know ahead of time, he's very pro-Trump, very much on that side of the discussions during this interview. And this interview, just so you know, took place before the elections. As of right now, I'm still not sure who won. You guys probably will know by the time you're listening to this, but as of when I'm recording this, we don't know, but he definitely leans on the Trump side. I don't really share much of my political beliefs, but you'll get kind of what I believe and why I believe it through the lens of Atlas Shrugged over this interview series. So I hope you enjoy it. It was a lot of fun to do, a lot of great feedback and comments. And again, we talk about stuff I don't typically talk about ever. So this may be a one-time shot to hear inside my mind when it comes to politics, religion, and all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, the book. So with that said, I want to introduce you guys to the first part of this five-part interview series with me and Josh Forti, talking about Atlas Shrugged. Russell Brunson: Are we live? Josh Forti: We are live. Russell: What's up, everybody? Josh: Oh, my word, with the incredibly ... I don't know if long-waited. It hasn't really been that long. Two months ago. So much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson, himself. How are you doing, dude? Russell: I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation. Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Dude, this is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and philosophy and everything like that. Russell: No pressure at all. Josh: Well, it's funny. Your wife said, "Oh, thanks so much for coming out." I was like, "Yeah, it's certainly ... Yeah, because it's inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here." I will say, this is my first ever in-person interview like this. Russell: Oh, really? Josh: Yeah. Russell: We got the microphones set up. Josh: I know. We have- Russell: He’s a professional. I've never done this before. Josh: Literally, we have a soundboard down here. We've got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're going to answer some comments in the Facebook feed here because we've got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here. Russell: What's up, everyone? Josh: All right, guys. If you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're most looking forward to. And Russell, I'm going to be honest with you. We're just going to be super chill. Guys, we have a live audience back here. We've got Dave. Dave's over there. We've got Jake and Nick. Russell: What's up, Dave? Josh: Where'd Jake go? Russell: Jake's working. Josh: Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there. Russell: Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for this- Josh: Yeah, check us out. Russell: This is my Rearden Steel shirt. This is my Who Is John Galt shirt. Josh: Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like the back- Russell: Yeah the back I’ll read what it says. It says, "I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was mine to shape and the image of my highest values never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle." So do you guys like these shirts? These are custom made for tonight. And you guys may have a chance to get one of these, but not yet. No, not yet. Josh: Not yet. Russell: We'll let you know when the ability ... If you guys ... Josh: Oh, man. Oh, man. Russell: Anyway, it's going to be fun, but these are custom ... We literally made these today. We needed some sweet shirts…for the show. Josh: Okay, Will says he got your text. Did you send my text to everybody? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Russell on top of it. I sent out a ManyChat, Russell sent out a text. All right, guys. Let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this ... And it's going to be weird. You've got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about, what, probably three months ago now or so? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Two, three months ago. And I go, "We need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below." And shout out, Georgie. Georgie comments and goes… "I coached Russell. You should totally interview me." And I was like, "You've got to be pretty gutsy to tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him," but then Russell comments back- Russell: And George is an Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled at Boise State with me. He's the man. So yeah. Josh: I commented back. I go, "You coached Russel?" And then Russell goes, "Well, yeah. He coached me. He's awesome. You should totally interview him." And so I said, "Yeah, Georgie, of course, you can come on. We'll do an interview, but Russell, I've got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on." And then you were like, "Sure, if we can talk about…" or no, you didn't say sure. You said, "Can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?" Russell: Yes. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I interview a lot about business stuff and- Josh: I'll pull the microphone just slightly. Russell: Yes. I don't do a lot of interviews because ... I feel like I've said, but I don't want to say, but I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with, other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "If you want to talk about Atlas Shrugged, I'm in." And then you started freaking out. Josh: The funny thing was is I go something to the effect of, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott, because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that," to which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, "Ha-ha. Oh, man. That'd be fun." I'm like, "Talk about an open loop, man. Come on." So anyway, I immediately messaged Russel and I'm like, "You better not be joking because that would just be rude." He goes, "No, I'm totally in." Josh: So about two months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time, hanging out with- Russell: Lot of stuff is happening. Josh: Tony Robbins? Russell: Yeah, Tony, man. And it's been chaos the last couple months, not going to lie. And as we got closer and closer to the election, I'm like, "This is an interesting conversation, post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election." And so was it two days ago, three days ago, you're like, "I will fly to Boise to record this." Josh: Yeah. Russell: "What day do you have open?" I'm like, "Only Wednesday night." And now we're here. Josh: Yeah. It was Friday afternoon. We were Voxing back and forth and you're like, "Dude, we've got to get this done before the election." I'm like, "Before the election? Oh, my word." I said, "All right. Sounds good. What time do you have available?" And that's when I was like, "You know what? I was going to ask you creatively, but I'm just going to ask you. How about I fly out to you?" And you're like, "Heck, yeah." Josh: So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of both sides of the aisle there and open it up. Russell: Fun. Josh: Anything else you want to add to that? Russell: The only other thing I would add is, because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it yet, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. Russell: And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book, I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in in this conversation, I'm excited for and I told you not to do Voxer. I was like, what's fascinating to me is not, "This is what we should believe." What was fascinating to me as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but the big thing is producers and going out there and creating stuff and doing things, which is what entrepreneurs do. Right? And it gets in the part of greed is good. You should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then the byproduct's really good. Russell: And part of me is like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," and then part of me, as a believing Christian, I hear this message I believe in and then I hear in my mind ringing Christ, talking faith, hope, charity, and love. And I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, we dive into politics a little bit. There are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. Russell: And I think that there's a happy medium and that's what I want to dive deep into just because I don't want anyone thinking, "Oh, Russell and Josh just believe this," or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this and I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. Anyway, I've toyed writing a boy about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it should be fun to first time verbally ever talk about this stuff. So I'm excited for it. Josh: Yeah. And I would just echo that, as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me, with my ... So funny. You, who never, ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics, colliding here, but is that a lot of times I get grouped into, "Oh, you like this reading. Therefore, you believe with everything." "You read this book," or, "You support this person," whether it's a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like, by saying that you enjoyed that or that you learned a lot from it, that all of a sudden you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, "How could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged?" And I'm like, "Well, this is the conversation that we're going to have." Josh: So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious ... I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Hold up here. There's two different versions of it, but if you've read the book, just comment below the number one if you have read the book, the number two if you have not read the book. I think that will just kind of give us a poll. We've got 200, 300 people. Russell: And if you listened to the audiobook, we'll count that as reading, too, either way. Josh: Yeah. Not if you know the premise of the book, but actually have read the book and have a deep understanding of it, or not deep understanding. But have like… Russell: Understand the stories them in. Josh: Yeah, things like that, because then it'll be interesting. Russell: One is read. Josh: One is read, two is not read. Oh, more ones than I thought was going to. Russell: Yeah. Me too. Josh: Russell's book is so underrated. Russell: We're 50/50. Josh: Ooh, yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end; what's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the real question we should be asking right now. Russell: That would be good, that would be good. Josh: Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so we'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. Russell: Are you ready to get started? Josh: Yeah. I'm ready to rock and roll with it. Russell: Oh I’m ready. Josh: Okay. Guys, we want to lay a couple ground rules. Okay? Because I don't know what it's like to be Russell, Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Josh: I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expand upon this, is we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have an open discussion about it. This could very easily turn into something that's like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks, why Biden's great, why Trump sucks," something like that or certain religion. We're not trying to convince you of anything, really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, "We think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that," but the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, an understanding of it, and then honestly we're probably going to be in our own little world over here. Josh: And we want you guys to interact and comment and engage and push your questions. And we'll go back through it, obviously, but the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simple to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and give the perspective of somebody who, for those of you that don't know who Russell is, the founder of a ... ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? Russell: Yeah. Josh: 400 employees. So from that perspective and from my perspective, to open your eyes to a new perspective of what we like, what we don't like and, like I said, more of a conversation for us. Russell: Yeah. I think that's good. And I think a big thing that we will talk about ... Our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I'm still convincing myself of both sides. I believe both these two things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun. Josh: Cool. So I think we got to- Russell: Talk about the premise of the book? Josh: Yeah, we've got to talk about the premise of the book. Russell: I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help. Can I grab that? Josh: Ooh, yeah. Russell: Okay. So folks that have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. Some of you guys know Atlas was cursed to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders for forever. Right? And so this is where the premise of the book ... All of us, people who are listening to this might guess that you are a producer. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world. Right? Russell: I'm curious, how many of you guys have ever felt this pressure. Right? When you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders. And if you haven't, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, I can empathize, though. There's so many times, you can ask Dave or any guys on my team, there's days I come in, I was like, "I feel like I'm going to crack." There is so much weight to carry this around. And I'm guessing most of you guys have felt that. It could be with your family, could be in work, could be business, whatever, but you've felt the weight of the world. Right? Russell: So this is what Atlas had to hold. Right? And so the premise of the book, Atlas Shrugged, is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, "Meh." In fact, should I read your tile you gave me here? Josh: Yeah. Russell: So Josh, as a gift today, gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote, actually, from the book, Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant holds the world on his shoulders. If you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? Just shrug." That's things like, what happens to society when us, the producers, when we no longer want to carry the weight of the world? We shrug and we walk away from it. Russell: And the book is a story about that. What happens when these producers start disappearing and they start leaving, they start going on strike? You see society, what happens when the producers disappear. Josh: Yeah. It's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that and it's this ... How do you summarize a 1200-page book? Basically, in the book, there is a main character by the name of Dagny. Russell: Oh. Yes. Josh: Oh. Russell: I was going to say John Galt, but you're right. Yes, Dagny’s the main character. Josh: Sorry. For the first two thirds of the book, the main character is a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically, she is one of the producers of society. And she's not the head boss of the railroad, but she's basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950 is when this was- Russell: Yeah. Josh: So 1950, and it's basically this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and making them do things, kind of like today in America, but super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat, more or less, by getting the railroads done on time and getting orders shipped. Josh: And I'm super oversimplifying, but around her, all the people that she works with that owned all these other companies that she would buy copper from or she would buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, all of a sudden all these head people ... Imagine people like Russell, all his friends just start disappearing. Imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell all just started disappearing. Right? That's what's happening all around her and she doesn't understand what's happening to them because just, one day, it's up and it's gone. Josh: And so the premise of the first two thirds of the book is showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of super government tyranny, overreach that's super, super controlling and she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. Would you say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far? Russell: Yeah. And every time they disappear, they leave behind a note or something that says, "Who is John Galt?" That's this theme throughout the book, is who is John Galt? Who is this John Galt person that makes all the producers disappear? Josh: And Dagny has no idea who John Galt is. Right? She doesn't even know, actually, for awhile that John Galt's actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, John Galt becomes her sworn enemy because she doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society and is making her life harder because ... Imagine you being an entrepreneur and all of your entrepreneur friends that you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals and everything, you buy all your supplies from, imagine they're all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's taking them all away and you don't know what's happening to them. Obviously, they'd become your sworn enemy. Josh: So for the first two thirds-ish of the book, that's kind of this premise of they're painting this really, really vivid story of the ... what are they called, the great thinkers of society? Yeah, the great minds of society, basically disappearing. And Dagny and ... there's a guy by the name of Hank Rearden, I think. Russell: Yeah, Rearden Steel. Josh: Rearden Steel, yeah. So Dagny and Hank Rearden are the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, "Oh," and then you get introduced to John Galt. I'm going to let you explain John Galt now. Russell: Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them. They'll ruin the book. The movies were really bad. Josh: Yeah. Read the book. Russell: So two thirds into the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them to, "Look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Let's leave. Let's go on strike," and they leave. And John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, "I can't. I have to do everything in my power." The last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing as she's watching just government regulations getting harder, and harder, and harder, and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. Russell: But one of the things John Galt and the people say, "When the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up, after the looters and the people are gone." Josh: And that's basically how the books ends is lights of New York go out and then- Russell: For such a long book, all of a sudden it just ends and you're like, "Oh, I need one more chapter. Come on. Just end it." Josh: And we're never going to get it. Ah. Russell: Well, maybe I'll write it. Josh: Yeah. So that's the storyline of the book, but what I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and the overarching ideas that the book presents, and capitalism versus socialism, and I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that’s in that, but I kind of want to, if it's all right with you, I kind of want to turn the conversation more towards us now and just kind of start geeking out just about that. Josh: So guys, we'll obviously go back and ... By the way, we want all your comments if you're ... Actually, comment below right now. Where are you watching? Are you watching it on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching it on Russell's page? Comment down below because we went to multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below. Leave your comments, leave your questions, smash the like button, love button, share this out, and we're going to be here. Josh: All right, Russell. What's up? Russell: Hey, man. Josh: All right. Dude, I've been wanting to, and I hate this terminology, but just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And this book, oh, my gosh. So what do you like about the book? What was your favorite thing? Russell: Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I didn't realize that, that year, over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking to me about it, talking about, "Everything's she's prophesying is happening right now." And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends, like, "You have to read this book." It was the word-of-mouth buzz that sold 500,000 copies of a book has been ... The author died, whatever, 30 years earlier. There's not active marketing out there. It's crazy. And everyone's talking about it, like, "What's happening in this book is happening in 2008." And it was just this prophecy that was being fulfilled. Russell: And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, "This is a really, really big book." And it took me awhile to get into it and I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages four or five times. And then, finally, this summer, one of my very first trips where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So my wife is very proud of me. Josh: Dang. Russell: And so as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book. And I picked it up and I was like, "I have no computer, but I've got this." And usually, I bring 20 books just because I know I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book." So I brought it, got the audiobook, as well. It's funny, I do the same. I listen to the audiobook and I read along so I can listen to it way faster, that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development at the very beginning, it took awhile to get into it. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Russell: And then the story hits and then you're just like ... And you couldn't- Josh: It's like thing, after thing, after thing. It's so quick. Russell: Oh, yeah. And it got crazy. So for me, it was interesting because I think, if I would've listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book. Right? Josh: Now you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Russell: Even better. I never experienced government regulations and things like that or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to our first member, to our first thousand, 10,000, 100,000 members, 400 ... I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400 plus employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think all we'd be focusing on here inside ClickFunnels is the next feature in the app, next thing. Russell: And there's the year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. It's constant where most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about, how do we make this thing better for the customer? It's, how do we protect our customers from the government? It's crazy. And just so many regulations and things. Russell: And so I have been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins ... not interview, but Tony Robbins did an intervention with me last year in Fiji. Josh: Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way. Russell: I'm so glad we captured that. It was a really cool moment in my life, but if you listen in there, I talked about ... He's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, but the pressure ... I love the same, so I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving, but there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people, that they just get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away." And again, as I'm reading this book- Josh: You hadn't read the book at the time. Russell: I hadn't read it yet. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: As I'm reading this, it's like- Josh: Did you know anything about the- Russell: I did not know the premise, no. Josh: You knew nothing. Okay, okay, okay. Russell: I didn't know what Atlas Shrugged meant. I was just like, "Oh, it's Atlas ..." I didn't know ... And it was like, when I read this title, like, "What would you tell Atlas if this was happening? Just shrug." And I was like, "Oh, that's why they called it Atlas Shrugged." And then I remember vividly feeling the pressure of this calling and how heavy it is. Russell: And there's so many times I wish, like, "Okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever." And so I instantly, with Dagny's character, I was like ... I feel that with Hank Rearden. I had so much empathy and understood their characters because I feel that so many times. Hank Rearden just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, funnels are my art. I can't draw, but funnels, that's my art and entrepreneurship. That's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. He just wanted to create steel. And it's all these other things and it's just like, "I just want to do my steel. I just want to do my art. Why do I have to deal with all this other stuff?" Russell: And so as I'm reading this, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that and I'm internet, but I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious, what happens? How does this story end? Be I'm in the middle of it. And depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Russell: It's interesting. As ClickFunnels has grown, we've talked about the pressure that I feel today would've crushed me five years ago. Right? And so you have to go through this thing where you build capacity to handle the next set of pressure, and build capacity, and build capacity. And nowadays, stuff happens daily that's just like, "Man, that would've destroyed me five years ago." Russell: And so I think, if you guys haven't felt that, as you grow, as you continue to try to get your message out and try to grow your businesses, whatever, the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Josh: Do you think…with that ... And I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but with the pressure, the things that are happening now daily that would've wrecked you five years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, do you think it's good, though, that they would've? Is it good that, at the capacity that you understood, that you took those things seriously then or would it have been better for you to just be in this mindset? I know it's not possible, but looking back, if you could snap your fingers and back then would've had the mental capacity to just ignore all those things and go up, would that've been a good thing? Or the fact that you went through all those things, does that help? Russell: The going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? Josh: Being able to… Russell: It makes you ready for it. Otherwise, just like lifting weights, if you try to squat 800 pounds, that's what it feels like. Right? Your legs buckle and you die, but because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Josh: Okay. Russell: Yeah. So anyways, the thing for me that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just fascinated because I was like, "This is kind of my story. How does it end?" Josh: How long did it take you to get through it? Russell: I'd say about two months. I got a lot of it done on the boat, and then I got into biking for a little while, so I was listening to it while I was biking. Josh: That's right, I remember that. Russell: I just kept biking and biking, like, "One more chapter, one more chapter." I'm in really good shape because of it. It's funny because one of the premises ... And they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter, I think it's called Greed. And I remember, if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about, "Greed is good," and I never understood that premise. Right? In the book, they start talking about that, how greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called Greed? Josh: I'm trying to find it. Russell: Utopia of Greed, yeah. Josh: And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed. Russell: So what's interesting is ... because all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? That's just, like, you shouldn't be greedy. That's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us, but then I think about, for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I wanted to make money. That's greed, right? And you think about any of us, we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor. Right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become a good wrestler. It was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time and it was a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time. Right? Kids, when they're first born ... I love my kids. They are so ... not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: And it's this growth phase where growth ... You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase. Right? When you're trying to learn, you're sucking things and you're learning and you're not contributing it. You're just learning, you're growing. And it was interesting because, as I'm going through this, I'm like, the greed is what got me into business. Right? And it's what got these things started and then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things ... All the byproduct of it is ... I think, in the book, how it justifies it, Hank Rearden going after ... he wanted to build his steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changes all these things. Russell: And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you moving. And it is. If you think about any aspect of your life, from sports to education, to business, to everything, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper into this. I don't want everyone to think that I'm just into this for the greed, because there's a transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute, but there's a transition point from growth to contribution that happens, but that's in the book where it starts talking about that. Russell: And I remember I was on the greenbelt here in Boise, riding my bike with James P. Friel, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think, "Is this true? Did I get started because of greed?" And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business because I wanted to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was ... Greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward such a long time. And as I was listening as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, "Yes, I understand this," and the other half of me was like ... I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are, honestly, the opposite of that. Right? It's like- Josh: Really the polar opposite. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Which it's funny, whenever you say that, people are like, "You know, Jesus was a socialist." I hear that a lot. I'm like, "You need to read the Bible." Anyway, but I think a lot- Russell: But he definitely is way more liberal leaning, 100%. Josh: Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservative, traditionally on that side of the aisle, fiscally Republicans get into trouble is where we're like, "Yeah, we're Christians, but we also want to get rich," and they never talk about all this other ... People like to use Christianity, I feel like, when it's convenient. Russell: We call it cafeteria Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: They pick and choose the things off the menu they want. Josh: Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that, but continue that. Russell: Yeah. So that started this question in my head, though, of just, so is greed bad then or is it good or where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth. Right? When you're born, you're a baby, if you didn't have greed, you would just die. Right? It's me. I need food, I need love, I need shelter. It makes you cry, which creates people coming to you. Greed is a driving force that's instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. Russell: And first, I was having this conundrum. I'm just like, "God, is this book evil? I don't know what to do with myself." Right? But all good things in my life that happened happened initially because the seed of greed started me on motion, started me in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which- Josh: If you haven't, come on. Russell: If you haven't, you must hate money. Come on. No, but in the beginning of Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept, as well, where as an expert, there's two phases to go through. The first is a growth phase. Right? I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where, eventually, you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, trying to learn everything, going there. I'm listening to all the podcasts, I'm reading all the books, I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue ... The ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? Russell: I've shared this story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling camp. My coach was like, "Hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer?" And I was like, "Why would I do that? What's in it for me?" Josh: Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. So you're riding your bike, wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Russell: 100%. Josh: And this is, what, six months ago? Russell: Not even that. Maybe four months ago. Josh: So you've built most of what ClickFunnels is today and now this is the first time you're really sitting down and wrestling with this idea of greed and is it bad, is it good, what's the balance there and stuff like that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's fascinating. Russell: Yeah. It never crossed my mind, really. And then it became this thing where it bothered me because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a greedy person." You know what I mean? Josh: Right. Russell: I'm like, "I don't feel like I am," but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right? And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it will set it up. Josh: Yep. Russell: But my senior year, again, I'd been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps. I was getting coaching. I was greedy. I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach a wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to the wrestling camp, and I remember he's like, "Okay, I need you to teach ..." My best move… I'm really good at tilts. So for all the wrestlers out there, I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, "Teach these kids how to do a cheap tilt." Russell: And I was like, "Okay." So I walk out, there are like 30 kids. I'm like, "Yeah, you do this. You just do it like that." And they all look at me and they go try and they try to do a cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. I'm like, "Are you guys dumb? This is not that hard." I'm like, "Come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. This is how you do it." I show them again, like, "Go do it." They go back out, nobody can do it. Russell: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Gosh, they're missing something. What is it?" So I have them come back in and I start breaking down, "Hey, for the move to work, your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here." I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing, "Oh, the season why I'm able to do this is because of this," and I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. And as I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And all of a sudden, I started realizing, "Oh, my gosh. This move works because of this." Russell: And now that I was aware of the situation, now I was able to make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And I realized that, but coaching the kids, that was the next-level growth. It was a shift from selfish greed growth to contribution. So that's why I started coaching camps every year and that's why I went from slowing down my progression to, all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? Russell: And so I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us in the momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die and it's a tragedy, but I think for most people, there's this transition point. And I don't know where it happens. It happens different spots for everyone where, all of a sudden, you realize ... you make the money, you started the business, and you realizing how unfulfilling that is. You're tapping out. You're like, "I'm not growing anymore. I thought I wanted money, but I don't. I want growth. That's what we're here on this planet for, is to grow as humans. Right? Russell: You don't get that and, all of a sudden, you realize money's not fulfilling and then you start seeing the other people you're contributing to and you're helping. Then it shifts to ... We hear people talk about, "This is about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people," and that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ. It's that transition, but greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And are you guys cool if I share scripture stuff? Because- Josh: 100%. Russell: -all this stuff is scriptural. It's not just- Josh: They don't get to decide, Russell. I get to decide. It's my podcast. You can talk about whatever. Russell: If you hate scripture, just close your ears and go, "Blah, blah, blah." So I wrote down some scripture. This is a scripture because it illustrates this point. I think it's so good. Josh: Also, I just want to say, Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. When you said that, I'm like, "Ha! I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go." Russell: I want to be ready. Okay. So this is a scripture. It says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever." I'm going to stop right there. Okay. So natural man is an enemy to God. Why is that? We're born. We have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed. Right? But God gives us that seed because it creates momentum. It creates motion. It creates us doing something. Right? Russell: And then it says in here, it says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, will be forever and ever," and then this is the transition point, "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." So he's greedy forever, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Russell: So growth is the seed. It's the natural man. It's the thing we have that's ... It's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, gets us to not die in our crib because we need love and attention and to get fed. Right? So then it gets us off our butts, off the couches, us being producers that gets us moving. And if we're not careful, though, the natural man will destroy us. You see so many people who made tons of money and they destroyed themselves in their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is, "Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." Russell: That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing. And it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden, now this thing you’re creating is not about greed, it's like, "Oh, my gosh ..." I remember, for ClickFunnels, when I had that transition was when I started seeing Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. I started seeing the ripple effect of their business. And I can name hundreds of people, person, after person, after person. Russell: I was like, "This isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created in each person's life." Now, that's charity. That's love. Now the mission isn't about money. We don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but that's the mission, is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where greed is the thing that gets us moving, but if we don't have that ... Russell: I think that's happened in the book. We talked about it. You said this at my house earlier, like, "A lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life." And it's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. They never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to the charity side of things. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things about the book ... And I'm sitting on the plane on the way over here and I'm like, "How do I articulate this?" Because that's always the hardest thing. You have this idea in your head and you're like, "How do I get it out and explain it in a way that somebody else can be like, 'Yes, I understand that?'" I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back, too, specifically to the book. So I am pretty vocally a conservative. Right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal, but I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. I think the government should stay out of gay marriage. Right? There's a lot of things that I lean left on, but when it comes to money and finances and things like that, I lean to the right. Josh: But the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is because I like what the left is trying to do in concept. It's like, okay, there's a bunch of people that are really truly in need. I agree. We need to help them. The problem is is that the way they go about doing it, I so radically disagree with it. It's against everything that I stand for. Right? I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do, it's I disagree with how you want to do it. Josh: What's interesting is I feel like, in this book, I feel like it's the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. This concept of ... I mean, Hank Rearden says it over and over again, "Everything that I do is for profit." That is it. Even to his friends. He took a bullet for John Galt, right? He gets shot. And John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, "You know I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right?" Literally saves a guy's life. Josh: So it's all about what he wants and only for him and that's it. And it's profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise, but what that leads to, I actually do like. And I feel like it's flipped compared to the world I'm living in now. Half the stuff that the Democrats ... I hate to… oh I want to go into politics so bad… Russell: Left and right. Josh: Yeah, the left. Guys, we're going to say left and right. Generalized here, right? Oh, my god, but generally speaking. And so when it comes to the whole greed issue, I'm like ... It's interesting to hear your perspective because I never, even throughout the book, I'm like, "Greed is a bad thing." And hearing your perspective, I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying, but is it greed or is there some other driving ... If I were to ask you a year ago ... When were you in the heart of ClickFunnels, like a year and a half ago, two years? There was a time of your life when all you ... I know all you do is ClickFunnels, but when- Russell: It's the last six years of my life. Josh: But you know what I mean? Wasn't there a year or two period in there, in the growth phase, where 100% of everything you do was just ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but from the outside perspective looking in, it does. Anyway, during that time of growing ClickFunnels, before you read that, would you have described yourself as greedy? Russell: No. Josh: What would you have described yourself as? What's the word? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. I was always trying to create stuff. It's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. I think, initially, I was creating for myself as opposed to, "Oh, my gosh. I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people." Josh: What point was that shift for you, though? Russell: You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, it actually is a better marketing way, too. My marketing went from- Josh: For all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor, you’ll make more money. Russell: Well, think about it. My marketing is always like, "Here's Russell. Here's how much money my funnel made. Here's how much ..." It was me talking about me all the time. And then I realized, "Who cares about me? I don't care about me. Let me show you what this person ... Let me show you all the results of the people we're serving, what's happening there," which first off, is better marketing and, second off, it's that transition where I was literally like, "Everything I've accomplished is stupid. What they're doing, that's the real ... What we're doing, that's the thing that's amazing." Right? That's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like, the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And when you start seeing that, it's like, oh, my gosh. That's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. Russell: And people ask me, "The last six years, why'd you keep getting up? Do you need more money?" I'm like, "No, that's not what keeps me up," but I can tell you 100 stories of people who ... literally the ripple effect of how many lives they've changed because I did my thing. Right? We made a documentary of the Two Comma Club and Jamie Cross has this whole part there where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And every time I see that, I start bawling, myself. That's why, eventually, you start doing it. Right? Josh: But when did that shift happen? Russell: I don't know. It wasn't a day that it happened. The energy of it shifted. Right? I don't know. It gradually kind of happened. Josh: What's that? Dave: Tell them about your dad. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Dave, come on in. Dave's here. Dave, take the mic. Here. Dave: Yeah. No, honestly, I think… this has been one of those things. It's been fun for me to watch Russell from the sidelines here. I think, honestly, it was your dad's 60th birthday. Josh: Which was how long ago? Dave: I don't even know. Russell: Three, four years ago probably. Dave: But it was the reflection on that and it was the difference from having your hand raised versus ... because I remember you… Russell: Yeah, you want me to tell that story? Dave: Russell is a much better storyteller. I'll seed the thought, but I'll let him finish. Russell: All right. Josh: Oh, thank you Dave. Russell: Thank you. Interesting. Josh: Guys, we have a live audience here. Russell: So yeah, my dad turned 60 and we have our little family reunion every year we do. And so it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom gave him $60, six $10 bills. And so she gave them to him one at a time and said, "Okay, the first decade was one to 10. Tell us something you remember about that." He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. It was so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, he was like, "Okay, that's when I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then 50 to 60, he kind of went through everything. Russell: And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Well, Dad, of all the decades, what one was the best for you?" Thinking, in my world, the best was going to be when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade was when I got to coach you." I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that I always thought the best part was being the all star. For my dad, the best part was coaching other people and seeing their hand raised. Josh: That was a good interjection there, Dave. Huh. Russell: …which was really cool.

How do you handle the haters? When you’re the face and voice of your company there’s going to come a time when someone’s going to talk trash about you. But when you put yourself out there, whether it’s on video, a podcast, a blog, a webinar, social media, there’s going to come a time when it happens to you. I came to a place where I started to think differently about the bashing and untruths. Want to know how to deal with the “haters?” Want to know how to turn the dirt into a castle? Then don’t miss the 4th and FINAL part of my interview with my first mentor Mark Joyner. ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. And welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today, hear a story. This is part four of four of the interview from the Mark Joyner show. And I hope you've enjoyed the series so far. I had so much fun sharing this interview with Mark, and I hope that you get a ton of value and benefit out of it as well. With that said, I'm going to ... No further ado, we'll cue up the theme song when we come back. You have a chance to listen to the exciting conclusion of my interview on the Mark Joyner show. And now it's funny for me because then I feel like now are the team has been doing good, now the next phase is this crossing the chasm. So I've been having my core team, I'll read this right now, we're all geeking out on it because it's fascinating as you start learning. And I pulled that. If you just Google crossing the chasm graph, you'll see a graph of the five phase, the innovators, the early adopters, and there's this big chasm. And on the other side is the early majority. And that's the majority of business, that's where you go from 100 millions to billions is getting the early majority. But there's a chasm because you have to shift everything. It's hard for me because it's the art that we use to get the innovators and early adopters repels the people on the other side of the chasm. It's like the funnels don't work over there, the messaging doesn't work over there, how we structure. And it's like, "Oh, do we really want to do that thing?" But it's like, "Yeah, that's the next phase. Otherwise we're just going to hang out where we're at forever. Right?" And we always say good is the enemy to great. Right? We're doing good. Oh yeah. There's perfect example of the graph right there. Yes. Yeah. He uses the big scary chasm, yes. And so for us, that's the next stage. The early majority, if you look at my business, right? The innovators were the people, the internet marketers who understood funnels. They were the first group. Next were the early adopters. These, for me, are the influencers, the creators, the experts. Those are the next phase where they're the people that are already, they're creating stuff and we're saying, "Here's how to get your creative message out." And so they've been really easy to become early adopters. But the early majority are the business owners. It's the chiropractors, the dentists, the LASIK surgeon. That's where the majority of existing businesses need funnels. How do we make this mainstream? How do we get to that next tier? And there's some that's bled into that, but for us to make that strategic move, it's hard because the dentist doesn't build their own funnels. Right? The person on the book or does the course, whatever's, typically ... They're the CEO and the marketer. And it's like they're loving this stuff because they'll spend the time to learn the strategy, do the thing. Over here, their dentist wants more dental clients, right? Or they're the restaurant who want ... They're not marketers, they're not going to learn marketing. They just want the tool. It's like we have to restructure so much of how the software alone needs to be rebuilt differently to be able to handle that next phase. The marketing, it's literally like it's a big rebuild. So there's fear, there's excitement, there's kind of that thing. And we're testing a lot of things on a small scale to kind of figure out pieces of it. But that's the next phase for us. Mark Joyner: That's beautiful. Dude, that was a fantastic example or a fantastic answer. I don't think you could give a more concise, better answer to that because you don't know. You don't know. It is a big, scary chasm and you guys are about to cross it, but you have some clues though. You know what I mean? Looking at just going back to good old fashioned Eugene Schwartz and looking at the tools that he gave us for changing the messaging. I think that a lot of your answers are going to be found there. Listen, do you have a couple minutes for a few questions? We got tons of them, but I know we've been going a little while. Russell: Yeah, sure. Mark: All right. So a lady here named rise of truth, she says, "Dan Gable coached at my alma mater. Have you ever listened to him talk about the letter to his mother wrote to him while he was attending college? Pretty awesome." Russell: I have not, but now I'm going to look that up. That's fascinating. Yeah. Far as I know, Dan Gable's like the Michael Jordan of wrestling. He is a legend. And I took a snapshot because I'm going to go look up the letter now. That's actually really cool. Mark: Yeah. I'm kind of curious about that too. What's funny, it reminds me of how when Edison was a very young man, his school wrote his mother a letter saying, "Hey, your son is basically not teachable. He's not smart enough to be in school." But then she said, "Oh, I got a letter from school. And what I read to them was that you're too smart to be in school so you have to be homeschooled." And then later on in life, after he had achieved all of this, he saw that original letter. And it just ripped him to shreds because he realized how much his mom sacrificed and how much of her belief in him changed his own perception of himself. And that's such a profound lesson, man, because if we could all just change our belief in ourselves a little bit, we're all capable of so much more than we're taught to believe. And while we're opiating ourselves with all this crap on TV and we're all involved in all of our different distractions, these things are also subtly weakening us and programing us with the message that, "Hey, there's this wonderful life that other people are watching or are living on the other side of the screen, but that's not for you. You're meant to be in this little box where you're the observer of everything on the screen while you stuff your face with Haagen Dazs and take more fentanyl. I mean, that's literally what's happening to a lot of society right now. And I think what we've got to do to to kind of turn society around before it destroys itself is to get people to understand that we're all capable of so much more than we've been taught that we're capable of. And the more people we can reach with that message, I think the better hope humanity has. Kenneth Kern Sanu had a really interesting question. He was talking about basically, I'm not going to phrase it the way he did. He phrased it in kind of a slightly rude way. No offense, Kenneth. But I don't know what you meant by the way you phrased it. But the question you asked at the end was very important. But he's talking about how you're getting out there all the time. You don't see this on the queue here. This was from another thread I started where a couple days ago, I asked people to just say, "Hey, tell me what your questions are for Russell." And basically his question was with you being out there so much and being so visible now, how do you deal with online haters? Russell: Oh, man. Man, when I first got started, back about the time I met you initially, that's the first time I started getting hate. So it's been, man, whatever, 15, 16 years ago when that first started. And it was really hard back then, man, I would see something and it'd put me out for three or four days while I sat there just depressed or upset or whatever. And it was really, really hard. And I remember a couple things that helped me. One thing I remember Dan Kennedy said, if you haven't offended someone by noon each day, you're not marketing hard enough. And that was a weird release to me. I'm like, "Oh." I don't know if I really believed that, but it gave me a little permission. And the more I've seen the hate, the more I realize it's people that aren't happy with themselves. I try not to look at it because it does, if I read something, it'll mess me up for awhile. But for the most part, when people, especially on ads, I mean, you get beat up in the ads, the more you're visible, the more that stuff happens. The hard thing for me is when there's people that you've helped or you love or you respect or whatever. And that doesn't happen often, but those are the ones that are more brutal. You know what I mean? You're just like, "Oh." I've had a couple people that I've spent a lot of time developing and helping find success, and then they seem like sometimes they're the ones that come back the hardest. And you're just like, "Seriously?" Mark: Yeah. Especially when you help them for free. Right? You know? Russell: Yeah. Those ones hurt the most. For the most part, people that are just posting stuff, I think it's funny at this point. It doesn't bother me at all. But I know my wife just started her first podcast, which is so far out of her comfort zone. She's very keeps to herself. And so she's getting to have people commenting and things are happening and it's the first time. And I'm remembering, I'm like, "I forget how hard that can be." In fact, it's interesting. Oh yeah, we talked earlier. I have a podcast, the Book of Mormon podcast. And it's funny because I tell people all the time, "Go and publish, go and publish." But I started publishing that and I had all sorts of things. I still do. I don't publish that near as much as I want to because I get the fear again because it's like ... I don't know, on the marketing side, I can take it, go for it. Take your best shot. But on other things that you're not as comfortable talking about or things you really hold sacred or dear or whatever, it's a little harder. But when all is said and done, I think that God's created these platforms for us to share and if we're not willing to share, then he'll give the ability, the gifts, the ideas, whatever, to other people. And so I think it's just we've all been entrusted with a lot so it's just like be willing to share it even if you get beat up a little bit along the way. So anyway. Mark: That's right. Well, yeah. Oh, dude. Well you know I have many, many stories along those lines I should share. That's something I've had to learn the hard way. But you have to give up and you have to trust a little bit. I mean, having so many things, I took it very personally along the way when a lot of people that I helped even straight ripped stuff off or even turned around and did nasty moves behind my back and stuff like that. And then I was kind of like, "You know what?" Well, here's the thing. I can look at this through another lens. I can say for whatever reason, I've been gifted with the ability to get these ideas and to be a conduit for these ideas. And I'm grateful that that conduit is still open. And I think that if I keep that channel open and keep giving it, it's going to keep coming. And what I need to focus on is the infinite abundance of that source of that inspiration rather than like, "Oh man, if I had patented the tracking pixel ..." I mean, these people come up to me, they're like, "Mark, how come you didn't patent eBooks or the tracking pixel? Doesn't that make you so mad?" And I'm like, "Not really. Because think about it, right? Let's say I patented the tracking pixel, right? They would have probably came up with some other very similar technology, called it something else, now everybody's still, even though it's a JS file, they still call them tracking pixels. And I get to be known forevermore as the inventor of the tracking pixel. Right?" So, I mean, maybe it wouldn't have worked out the same way had I patented it. Right? Maybe it would have gone a totally different way. Maybe it was actually the best possible way for things to turn out for me. You know? So I'm learning how to change my orientation about that, but I want to ask you something about this. Do you ever give online haters a little sass? Because I've experimented with this a bit over the last couple years. I got to say, normally, for awhile, I was just like, "All right, just be kind to everybody." But then I was like, "You know what, man? Some of these people need a little bit of a slap back every now and then." And I started getting a little bit more sassy over the last couple years. And how about you? Have you experimented with that? Russell: It's funny because I would say since ClickFunnels' come out, there's been probably three or four times where I just ... You just snap and your thumbs are flying on your phone. You're like, "Ah," and you post it. And I can honestly say every time I've done that, I've regretted it. And it's now, I look at this, with ClickFunnels as well, it's not just me. Everything I say is an extension of my partner, Todd, and my other partners and my employer. So especially there was this one dude, I'm not going to say his name, but somebody who I had a lot of respect for. We've never had any ... It's just weird. We'd never really communicated and I thought we were ... I mean, we communicated a little bit. I assumed we were friends. We're peers. And he starts going off on his own personal wall about aggressively tearing me down. So confusing. And anyway, so I said some things I probably shouldn't have. So it's tough. Especially the wrestler me. Because man, if you say it to my face, we are going. Please come at me. Mark: Yeah, right. Russell: It's not posted publicly for everyone to see the fight, but we can have that fight right here, anytime. Mark: You’d rip their limbs off their torso. Russell: I know. Yeah, it's frustrating. But when all said and done, it's just, it's hard. Mark: I'll tell you the distinction I have on this. Right? So if I reply out of anger, I always regret it. But sometimes, if I come back with just a really like an IDGAF attitude zinger that just puts them in their place, that one, I'm like, "Nah, I don't regret that because you totally had it coming and they shut up." Right? And it teaches them like, "Okay. Man, if- Russell: You get to punch back. Mark: Yeah. I mean, whatever people think, I know I'm going to say something very divisive here and I'm not going to get into politics or anything, but whatever people think about Trump, whether they hate him or love him, and it seems to be a completely divisive thing, nobody's in the middle. I think I'm the only guy on the planet who's like, "I don't really have an opinion." I can look at him through a million different lenses. You know what I mean? There's so many ways to look at what he does. Right? But one thing that you have to recognize about the guy is that when somebody punches him, he punches back hard. Right? And fast. Yeah. And it makes people hesitate. They're like, "I don't know if I can tangle with this dude." Right? So it's an interesting thing to observe. I don't know if there's any one right way. All right. We've been going awhile. I'm going to… go ahead. Russell: I love your Facebook comments because you always post these questions that you can tell you're stirring the pot a little bit like let's just see what both sides are going to say to this question. Mark: Yeah. Russell: I always read them, but never comment because I don't know if I have strong enough opinion one way or the other to defend anything, but I love reading. Mark: Same, same. And by the way, I'll just say, people misunderstand. They think I'm doing this for engagement bait. And it's like, "Dude, if I was trying to gain Facebook for marketing, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing on Facebook." I mean, I see what I do as more or less of a public service. I feel like what I'm doing out there is kind of like trying to teach people like, "Man, stop being so rigid about your view of reality because you don't know, man. You don't know." And I'm trying to get people to be okay with disagreeing with other people. And I mean, that's been sort of like my whole mission on social media is to create an environment where people can be like, "Hey, let's see if we can actually look at things dispassionately and look at them through somebody else's eyes and maybe say to ourselves, 'You know what? I see this completely differently from that other guy, but I don't have to hate this dude. He sees it differently from me. We can still get along.'" This has been a quixotic battle for me. I don't think I've succeeded in this mission. I don't know how much longer it's going to last. I think I'm probably going to change up my approach on it. Hey listen, let me end on one last question. I don't know if this is one you're going to want to ask, but it's from a mutual friend of ours. You remember Brad Callen? Yeah? Russell: I love Brad. Yeah. Mark: I love Brad too, man. He is a great dude. And he asks a question that I don't know if you're going to want to answer because it's a very personal questions about numbers. Russell: Okay. Mark: Okay? All right. So he says, "Posted this earlier and also mentioned directly to him, but having him give you some tangible numbers on ClickFunnels. Things like total number of free trial users. And by the way, I don't think I would answer this question if I were Russell." Okay. If somebody were to ask me this about Simpleology, I don't think I would answer. I don't think I would answer. And guys, if Russell refuses to answer, do not fault him because he is under no obligation to answer this question to anybody. And I'm kind of- Russell: Especially Brad. Just kidding. Mark: Yeah, especially Brad. No, we love Brad. Brad is an awesome dude. All right. "So things like total number of trial users they get per day. What percentage of those stick and are billed at least once? What the average member link there is, what the churn rate is, what the refund rate is. That would really help those of us building software businesses to know what numbers we need to hit monthly to reach Clickfunnels' level revenues and valuation. Assuming Russell wouldn't know exact numbers off the top of his head, but maybe some broad guesses. The more actual data of any sort of numbers metrics he can give would be great for those that have been at this for awhile and also help broaden the mindset and goal setting on what's possible." And then he said, "PS, anything not covered in his books would also be ideal." I'll answer the PS. Wait for the two sequels coming out here pretty soon. Russell: I mean, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. I'm not a big data guy. I'm more the creative side. So some of my partners can answer a lot of it better than me. But I'll share some stuff I think will be helpful and motivating for people. Because I remember when we launched ClickFunnels, the event I told you at the very beginning where I did the first presentation, I was like, "Oh my gosh, we got the message right." It was kind of a funny event because you could buy a booth. And it was a hallway half the size of the room I'm in right now. And there were only four people that bought booths. ClickFunnels had our very first booth ever. And then Leadpages had a booth, and two other people. And this side of the hall was Leadpages, and this side was ClickFunnels. We were almost touching. And that was our big competitor when we first got started. And I remember I was just like ... It was really funny because our banner ad said, "Can your landing page software do this?" And it had a picture of a funnel. And then right there, it was like, "Landing page software." Anyway, it was really funny. But at that event, I remember Clay Collins, who I don't know if he still owns Leadpages or not, but at the time, he owned it. I think he still ... Anyway, but he told Mike Filsaime, I think, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think he said something like there's 200 or maybe 300 signups a day that were happening. And I remember he told me that and I was like, "There's no way that's possible." And I sat home thinking forever, I'm like, "How do you get 200 to 300 signups a day consistently every single day?" And I just, that number drove me crazy. But then it became my KPI. Like, "Okay, how many do we get a day? I need to know." And it was three and then it was five. But because anything you track, it starts to grow. And so we kept looking at it, looking at it. And so for me, that became the number to look at because I couldn't figure out how he was doing it. And so I can give you some, again, basically right now we get about 1500 people a day that go to clickfunnels.com and start the trial, which is step one, which basically pick a name and a username. And then from that, step two is where they put in a credit card. And about half of those will put in a credit card. So we're getting, I don't know, 700, 800 paid, or not paid, but credit card trials a day that are coming into the platform. Some days are higher. Some days we get 1000. Some days it's 500 or 600. But pretty consistently, it's around 1500 free leads a day and then you get a little more than half actually finish credit card. And that's about all the numbers I really know off the top of my head. I know that it's interesting. At this point in the game, those people come whether we're buying a lot of ads or not. The game now on our side is the churn stuff. Because every percentage of churn, we drop churn right now by 1%, that’s an extra $20 million a year revenue to the bottom line by 1%. And so that's the game right now. It's like, how do we simplify the software? How we change the lead flow? How do we pre-frame it better? There's so many things that it's a fun game. And that number is always fluctuating. And we're always chopping it down by a fourth of a point, half a ... And so I don't know what it is right now off the top of my head. But I do know that's the number. That matters more right now than new leads because, like I said, a half percent, 1%, it changes, it's a big deal. Mark: And by the way, so to wrap this up, I just want to tell Brad, the answer Russell just gave you is actually better than specific numbers that he could have given you. Why? Because he's teaching you the secret formula for what to look at, right? It doesn't matter how your numbers stack up to some other company. What matters is the improvements that you make to your numbers right now. That's the only thing that really, really matters. And sometimes competition is a good way to motivate yourself, but it's not the best way to improve yourself. Because if you're looking at the other guy, you're not watching your own lane, right? You need to be watching your own lane. You need to be improving your game. Yeah, check out the other guy's numbers from time to time to kind of see how you're doing, but really 99% of your focus needs to be on how do I improve me? How do I improve what's going on inside my company? And usually, by the way, how to improve what's going on inside in your company comes down to improving what's going on inside you. All right. Listen, Russell, I know I've been keeping you up late and I know you got kids to take care of and you got a company to go back to tomorrow and it's getting late and we are way past your bedtime here. I want to encourage everyone, go to simpleology.com/clickfunnelsfree. At the very least, check out the free trial Funnel that they have there because Russell has honed that through thousands upon thousands of split tests now. And you guys will see their marketing structure, how they're doing that, how they're retargeting it, how they get you guys back on email, all of that. And also, the software itself is absolutely amazing. And I want to encourage everybody as well, if you enjoyed this tonight, if you appreciate the fact that Russell here spent almost two hours now giving us some pretty amazing inside information on a business that is actually right about to cross that chasm and start to reach that billion dollar mark, and I can almost guarantee you guys they're going to make it, knowing Russell and knowing how they're doing, if you appreciate what he has delivered tonight, I want you guys to share this far and wide with as many people as possible. If you think this has helped you, let's get this message out to more people. And any comments you guys can put underneath all of this to say thank you to Russell as well, I'm sure he would be very, very appreciative to get that. No matter how well we do, we always want to be appreciated for our contributions. And Russell, I appreciate you very, very much, man. Man, I'm so proud of what you've done. And you have become an inspiration for me. You make me want to be a better person and you have set a higher bar. And at 51 years of age now, I feel invigorated watching you being so successful. And I'm now inspired to take my company to a higher level as well because of what I see you doing. So thank you for that, man. Russell: Thank you. And thanks for having me on. I had a really good time. I haven't had a chance to do something like this for a long time. I mean, we're always in the thick of it. And with this late night, it would work for me. And I appreciate you letting me do that. But I was going to kind of wrap with just saying it's interesting, in your life, your life's a timeline from you're born and then over here, you die. And there's different people that, as you're on this journey, that shift your direction a little bit. And a little shift in direction can be a huge different outcome in different spots. And I'm just honestly so grateful for you, man. I started this journey 17, 18 years ago and I was floundering, trying to figure things out. You were the guy who literally grabbed me and shifted my direction and completely transformed the projectory and the future of my life. And anyway, I'll always be grateful for you for that. And anyway, so just wanted to let you know that. And just grateful that you put in as much time as you have. I think, again, I always talk about it with my own tribe, but I feel like business is a calling from God and that we're being called to serve a group of customers. And if we do it right, we change their lives. And you definitely changed my life. And so thank you for hearing the call and putting forth the effort and the time. And I know from experience it's not easy, it's not painful. It's way easier to go sedate and go watch TV and do whatever. And through those times I'm sure were hard for you at the beginning of the internet, before Facebook, you were out there killing yourself and learning this stuff and trailblazing for people like me so that we could get on your shoulders and learn from you and set our own path. So always be super grateful eternally for you. So thanks for all you've done for my life. Mark: Thank you, man. I'm humbled. All right. Everybody, you guys have a beautiful night. I enjoyed this immensely. And Russell, I will see you actually very soon. Russell: You’re coming to Boise! Mark: That's going to be awesome. That's going to be awesome. Russell: I'm so excited. I appreciate you coming. Mark: See you in Boise, brother. Russell: See you, everybody.

How to break through ROADBLOCKS and get to the next level? You hit those exciting milestones in your business… Whether it’s $1,000…$5,000…$10,000…$100,000, or even hitting your first $1,000,000 in revenue with your funnel (Two Comma Club)! But for whatever reason, no matter what you do, you just can’t seem to get past that first milestone. You get stuck. Something’s standing in your way and you just can’t figure it out. So how do you drive past that roadblock? How do you get to that next level in your business?This is critical because EVERY entrepreneur, every business, and every Funnel Hacker WILL hit this wall at several different stages as you grow and scale. In Part 3 of this 4-part interview with my mentor Mark Joyner, I share exactly what to do to break the glass ceiling in YOUR business. ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today you are ready and prepared, I hope, for part three of a four part series, where I had a chance to do an interview with my very first mentor, Mark Joyner. And what's cool about this is, in the past, I've had a chance to interview Mark a lot of times, but it was the first time that he ever interviewed me, which was kind of... Anyway, it was a huge honor to have your mentor asking you questions about stuff. And so, like I said, in the first episode, Mark was my very first mentor online. Someone who I, man, have so much respect for, and so grateful for him and his contribution that helped me to figure this game out. And I hope you guys enjoy part three of our four part series with my very first ever mentor, Mark Joyner. Mark Joyner: Okay, third thing, third thing. Russell: Third thing, all right. So, I think the reason why a lot of people, as they're trying to grow their company, they hit these ceilings. I struggled this. I got stuck between one and three million dollars a year for like a decade. I couldn't break that ceiling no matter how hard I did. And what I realized is, as we launched ClickFunnels, the first phase of the business was like, there's the hyperactive, the first set of customers, which were the easy ones, right? They get it, they're the early adopters, they figure stuff out. And those are the customers that are already there. They're just waiting for you to go and grab them. And I think most companies, that's as far as they ever get. In fact, I've been geeking out on the book, Crossing the Chasm right now. And there's the five different things. And the innovators are the first ones. And I think that's where most people's businesses get to the innovators. And that's where they stop, right? Mark: Right. Russell: Then the second phase is the early adopters. But these people aren't... The second phase, you have to learn how to create a customer. Again, when we first launched ClickFunnels, the internet marketers who knew what funnels were like, "sweet, I'm in." And they came in and they got ClickFunnels, the early adopters, right? But then, after that was done, we ran out... It was like being in a Ferrari on a dead end road. We ran out of road, and all of a sudden we're like, "Hey, we got all the internet marketers. Oh, crap, now what?" And it was like, okay, now we have to create customers. We have to change our messaging, create our front end price. They do things so that when someone comes, they don't come with the desire ahead of time, but they listen to the message, and all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, I need a funnel." If you look at, even strategically, the Dotcom Secrets book was to get the early adopters. People who understood funnels were. Here's my strategy of funnels. We got them in. And then Expert Secrets was like, "Hey, do you have talent? Do you have ideas or advice or things you can make money with? That you could share your advice." And people were like, "Oh yeah, I do." It's like, "Cool. Well, you need a funnel to be able to get that message out to the marketplace." And so we created customers from people, and that's kind of the second phase. And I don't think most people ever get to that where they're in the phase of creating customers. They're getting the low hanging fruit, the early adopters. And then that's the business. And they hit the ceiling and they never get past it. And it's realizing, the next phase is like, "Okay, how do I create customers? How do I create the desire so that they will come from where they are and come to the next phase." And I feel like, just from my standpoint, we just finished... We're kind of at the end of the early adopter phase. And we're now making the leap to the early majority, which for me, this is my big challenge, is crossing the chasm. We can talk about it later if we want it. But, that's the next phase that I'm in. And most people never... It's taken us six years to get the point where we're done with that phase and moving to across the chasm, which is scary and exciting. Mark: Well, that's kind of what I want to end on, actually. Russell: Oh cool. Mark: I want to interject really quick here. This is a very interesting Eugene Schwartz lesson that I think is quite apropos to what you're talking about. And you remember the audience awareness scale, right? Russell: Yes. Mark: So he's got two things in there. The audience sophistication scale and the audience awareness level. And the audience awareness level goes all the way from problem unaware. So, actually I should put yeah… So problem unaware. So imagine you got a guy who is living in the Aboriginal Bush and he doesn't even know that there is such a thing as phones. And you're like, "Hey, here's an iPhone." Well, he's not even aware that he has the problem, that he doesn't have a phone. And then you got guys who are problem aware, and then you got solution aware. And then it goes all the way up to most aware, which is like a guy who's like, "Hey, all you have to do is tell me that there's the new iPhone coming out." Russell: I'm in. Mark: And right, "I'm camping out. I'm going to be in front of the iPhone store for two weeks. So I can be first." So as Russell was changing, he was dealing with guys who were sort of solution aware, and sometimes even problem aware. But as he was expanding his marketplace, he had to kind of reach out to these other areas. But what you have to also understand is that, as you go across this whole spectrum, this area is almost always where the biggest money is, but it's the hardest market to talk to, because the messaging is so much more difficult. Russell: Language changed. Mark: Yeah. Russell: Each step in that... Because people are like, "Well, how do you shift it?" And like, "It's the words, it's the language." I remember Dean Graziosi called me one day. He's like, "This is the weirdest thing." He's like, "I'm at my wife's hairdresser, and the hairdresser was talking about this thing called ClickFunnels." And he calls me. He's like, "You've done something no one else has ever done, because my hairdresser's talking about your company right now." But it's like, if I walked in a hairdresser, "You want a funnel?" They're like, "For my hair? How does that work?" It's like, "No." We had to speak differently to those audiences. And as we go further out to different audiences, we change our language patterns because we have to speak to them in a way that they understand. And then we bridge the gap. Then we take them through a bridge that helps them understand like, "Oh, that means funnel. And this is why you need that thing." And that's part of the game. Mark: That's right. Russell: So much fun. Mark: Because they're not even going to know what a funnel is. Yeah, exactly, exactly. By the way, another really interesting book people could read. So sort of like a spiritual sequel to Breakthrough Advertising, was one written by some of the guys at high level in Agora, called Great Leads. And they talk about, yeah, it's actually a fantastic book and it shows you six different ways to talk about those different audience... To talk to those different audience awareness levels. Very, very good read for people. Okay, now, so this one is... So, I know I want to get into your thing that you talk about, about crossing the chasm. And I think that's a nice one to end on here. And actually, because I wrote it as your plan to reach the billion dollar level. And I think that's kind of the same question really. So, but before we get to that, I want to ask you what your three biggest personal lessons were in this journey, in this entrepreneurial journey. And you can even talk about some of your sports stuff too, because I know some of that applies. So what would you say those are? Russell: Man, I would say to begin with, is like, entrepreneurship... Building a business is the best personal development seminar you'll ever go to. All of your problems get shoved into your face and it gets bigger and bigger. It's like, "Ah." Mark: And you deal with it or you go broke. Russell: Oh, yeah, it's tough. But what's cool about business too, it's kind of like... I have a lot of friends who are having their first baby right now. And I remember our first babies came, and we've got five kids now, but when the first come you're so scared, you're like, "What am I going to do when the baby shows up?" You're freaking out. All of a sudden the baby comes out, and it sits there and it sleeps for 18 hours a day. You're like, "Oh, it's just sitting there." Like, "Okay, this isn't that bad." And then it starts growing and growing. And what's interesting is that your capacity to handle the baby grows as the baby grows. And so right now I've got my twins are 14 years old. And it's like, man, they stress us out. Teenagers are so much harder. Mark: Yeah. Russell: But it's like, if they would've came out at 14 year olds, it would've crushed us, we'd have been destroyed, because we weren't prepared. But our capacity to handle the problems grew as the kids grew. And I think, I look at like the stuff I deal with on a daily basis right now, six years ago, would have destroyed me. I'm so grateful that I had six years to grow in capacity to handle the stuff. It's ridiculous. But that's why business is so much fun too and it's exciting. So, what was the question again? Mark: Personal... The three biggest personal lessons that you've learned along the way. And again, this can be from your sports career, from your parenting and from your entrepreneurial journey, because I think they're all related. As you said, business is the best personal development seminar you could possibly attend. These things are not unrelated. They are all... It's all one life. And the things that I learned in the military, definitely applied to my life in business. And I'm sure things that you learned in the sporting world and in parenting, have also applied to business as well. So, it sounds like the first one is, is that you had to learn how to grow along with the challenges, because the challenges are not going to get easier. They're actually, by definition in life, going to get more difficult. And I think, let's just be really frank and blunt with everybody listening. Look, we all age people, we all age. That means that baked in to the formula for life itself is increasing difficulty, no matter what. And if you think you're going to insulate yourself in some bubble. Everybody has this, they get an entrepreneurial-ism and say, "Well, what's going to happen is, is I'm going to make a whole bunch of money, then I'm going to sit on a beach, sipping umbrella drinks, and all my problems are going to go away." Well, guess what's going to happen? You do that, and I tried there, here's what happened, I got fat, sick, and I became this horrible, disgusting person, that I was not proud of. And I was going to die if I carried on with that path. This is the way the universe is designed, guys, it's designed to continue to get more difficult and to challenge you more. Would you agree with that? Russell: A hundred percent. Unless... And some people nod because they cave, and they go and they sit and watch TV, and they just like, "Ah, I'm going to tap out." And they sedate themselves so they don't hear the voice, the calling, whatever it is, that's pulling you. Because I think all humans have that. I think it's inherent from our creator that there's this thing that pulls us to want to do more. And we want to contribute. And we have this thing. But, the majority of people, they try to sedate it. They sedate it with TV, with drugs- Mark: That's right. Russell: ... with alcohol, with pornography, whatever it is like to get that noise out. Because there's pain with that. Man, it is painful to walk out... And I'll tell a story that maybe this kind of ties into the second one. But, we were about a year into ClickFunnels and this is all of our first rodeo. It was Todd's first time building an app this big and all these things. And I remember when we first built it, he was like, "I'm pretty sure that the way I built it will handle about 10,000 customers." We thought maybe that'll take a couple of years. And within a year, we were 10,000 customers. And sure enough, about a year in, things started happening and the site would go down for half an hour. Then they get it back up. And then all these problems and all these things. And it was just so much stress. And I remember I got asked to speak in London, to talk about ClickFunnels. So my wife, my kids, my family, we fly to London. As soon as we land at the airport, I get out. I'm trying to get my phone connected and get a SIM card and whatever. As soon as it gets in, my phone is just on fire from... And it's all these people who I knew. And I thought they were my friends, but ClickFunnels went down, and they were not... Pitchforks were out and they were ready to kill me. And I'm like, I don't even know what's happening. And so I remember, I messaged Todd and I'm like, "What happened?" He's like, "We've been down for two hours." He's like, "We can't figure it out." He's like, "If we're able to recover from this, then..." I don't know, something, but I just remember him saying, "if". And I was like, "Wait, if?" It wasn't, "when", it was, "if". And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know how to deal with this." Mark: I've been there, I've been there. Russell: We're in a car and we're dragging the kids to the hotel. And they're like all excited from London. And I'm stressing out. I don't even know what to do. And finally get to the hotel, and we're talking. And everything's still down, and I look at Facebook, and everyone's, literal death threats, it's crazy how crazy people get. And just blowing up everywhere. And all I wanted to do was... And I'm a Mormon, so there's not many things that we can do to sedate. Let's go get some ice cream, right? I don’t have anything! What do we do? I remember that moment, I was just like, I just want to hide. But I was like, I don't think that's the right... I don't know, I don't think it's the right thing. I think I need to talk about this. And I shouldn't act like it's okay, because it's not. It gets... So I decided... So I went to our Facebook group at the time. I think it's still archived in there, you probably find it. But I did this video from the hotel room and I was like, "ClickFunnels is down and it is not acceptable. And I am pissed at myself, I'm pissed at my team, were all pissed. This is not okay." And like, I just went out, "All my sites are down. I'm losing money, you're losing money. I understand it. It's not fair to you. It's not fair..." And I just owned it publicly, live streaming. And it was scary. I'm like, "I don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to keep you guys apprised. But we're doing everything we can. And it is not acceptable. And I am so sorry, and we're going to fix this." And I just led with that. And then got off Facebook Live and then probably balled my eyes out. Like, "I don't know if we're going to fix this." And luckily, I've got an amazing team back home and they're killing themselves. Mark: Awesome. Russell: It'll be a good chapter in the bootstrap book someday. But everything went on. But I think about eight hours and they got it back up. And I remember, after it got back up, then it got stable. And then we're just like, "Oh no, what's going to be the damage from this and the fallout." And I remember... We get graphs every day of how many people signed up, how many people leave, and all those kind of numbers. And man, during that thing, our number of cancellations, almost non noticeable. And I was just like, if we would have went the other way around and hid behind it, people wouldn't trust... Who knows what would have happened? And that was such a good learning moment for me. We can't hide behind stuff in today's world. We just have to come out front. And so that was a year in. And then luckily, from that point, we had some other good partners who came on, like Ryan Montgomery, who came and helped us stabilize things and figured out all these things. And it's been pretty stable since then. It's just those things that you learn, of don't hide, don't sedate. And I think in all aspects of life, that's a lesson. As soon as the company gets hard, man, your brain's going to be looking for a million different ways to say no. Or like, "I don't want to go that way." "No, no, no." And, man, everything good always comes from going to the eye of the storm and pushing through it. And even though the pain seems like, if I sedate or if I check out it's going to be good. But it's not a way to live life. Mark: So, dude, it's funny you say that. I was just shooting a video about exactly that, about how everybody is kind of opiating themselves these days, through the dopamine hits of social or whatever it is. Everybody's got their drug of choice now. Again, you named a lot of them, binge watching, pornography, actual hardcore drugs. There are so many people that are hooked on fentanyl and heroin combinations. And, it's a really ugly cocktail of what's going on. And I want to kind of interject and maybe pause it, what I think another third lesson is for you. I'm actually going to ask you a question. Were you raised in Mormonism or did you choose to convert? Russell: I was definitely raised in it, but I also had a very definite point where I chose it. There, at least for me, I think there's always a time when a storm comes and you got to decide what you really believe. Definitely had that. So yes, and yes. Mark: I want to say, I would just kind of hypothesize, that that played a huge role in your personal development, because you guys are not allowed to involve yourselves in any of those sedation methodologies. They encourage a very morally upright life. And I have to say, being a veteran of the military intelligence community, I actually got to know a lot of Mormons, because Mormons go out there and they get their language training as missionaries. So there are a lot of Mormons in the military intelligence community. And I got to say, almost all of the Mormons that I worked with were really solid dudes, who were just genuine, sincere people, who wanted to live their life correctly, and legitimately wanted to be kind to people. And I know you've got people like Bill Maher out there, saying all kinds of really nasty things about Mormonism, calling it a cult and stuff like that. But my experience with Mormons has been nothing but very positive. And it would seem to me that your choice to really, even though you were raised in it, to decide to take that on very seriously, must have also been very pivotal for you in your personal growth. Russell: A hundred percent. I did go on a mission for two years for the church, and I went when I was 19 years old, which is typically for most people, that's the time when you're in college, you're partying, you're drinking, you're thinking all about yourself, and you go out there on your mission, and you can't do anything for yourself. You get a name tag, where literally, I was Elder Brunson. My name is gone. I'm not even a... And you're out there everyday serving other people during, typically the most selfish time in someone's life. And for two years, that's the lens you look at things. So, when you come home... And I always tell people, "I'm so grateful I made money after mission." Because, who knows what would happen? Both of us have friends that made a lot of money really young and it destroyed them. And so it's like... Mark: Oh yeah, definitely. Russell: Just super grateful that I had that lens to just... The lens of learning how to serve people before yourself, which is... Unfortunately, most people don't have that opportunity. And on a mission, you're kind of forced into it, and you learn to love it. Mark: It's funny for me. I went through... Even though my family was Catholic, I was kind of raised around atheist/agnostics. And I became, sort of what I would call now, a pantheistic spiritualist. But over time, I've become more and more rigid in that. I've explored all of the different world's religions. And the one thing... And I haven't decided yet, if I'm going to settle in any location. I still need to listen to your Mormon apologetics video that you made. I'm super curious about that. I need to make a point of hearing it, because I'm, open to it. I'm open to it. And when I see people who are living a life that represents genuine service for other people. I don't know if you ever heard of this guy, Father Gregory, who has this thing called The Homeboys' Bakery. And basically what he does, he takes these kids who were, they were in prison, and he gives them jobs at a bakery, and then helps teach them how to be decent people. And I saw that and man, I can't help but get choked up when you hear about something like that, man. Because when you see somebody living their life that way, and when you know what the cost of living your life the other way is, it makes you really take those kinds of things seriously. And even though religion gets a bad rap because, yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening in organized religion, the notion that sin, however you want to label that, destroys your life, is an observable phenomenon, man. You can see it. When you do all the things that you're, "not supposed to do", and all of the religions of the world tell you not to do a lot of the same things. And when you see what happens to people who live their life that way, and they think they can get away with it. And then you see what happens to people who live their... And I'm talking about people who were the week, "Oh, I'm trying to be a nice guy as a way to manipulate people." That's a bullshit thing that some people do, right. I'm talking about guys who are like, "Hey, I'm going to make myself a strong person, and I'm going to do good in the world." When I see people like that, I'm like, "That is the path that we all need to be walking down." And the more of us do that, the better the world's going to be. Russell: Yeah, I had someone recently tell me... Learn about my beliefs and stuff and just be like, "Man, that must be really, really hard." And then at the same time, I looked at their life. And I was like, looking at the path that they've gone on, and not to judge them all. But I'm like, that seems so much harder. Mark: Yeah. Russell: I don't know. Maybe, but, I'm grateful for the path and I'm going to stay on it. Mark: Good for you, man, good for you, dude. I'm blessed to see your example, because you're yet another person I can look at it and say, "Hey, here's a guy..." And your life is harder than mine, man. Your company is doing way more volume than mine right now. You have kids to manage, you do all these extra things on top of it. And I'm like, "Man, I want to learn how Russell is managing all of this stuff." You know what I mean? Because you're younger than I am, but you figured some things out that I haven't figured out. I want to learn that. And I'm a moron if I don't learn it, right. This is where the ego less ness has to come in. If you want to be better and better and better, if you want to truly achieve greatness, you got to be really straight with yourself about what you can and can't do. So let's kind of tie this up now with this crossing the chasm thing, man. Russell: Yeah. Mark: I don't know if this is something that could be covered briefly. Because I imagine it's going to be a pretty complex thing, but what can you say about that? Russell: Yeah. And I'll tell you some of my thoughts. I don't know all the answers yet. We're on that journey right now. Mark: Yeah, good answer. Russell: And it's fun though. Because for me, it's been interesting as I've gone on this journey too, and maybe this ties back to the last question as well, but, and I'll tie it back to sports. When I was wrestling for a long time, it was me, I was the all-star. I was out there wrestling, it was my thing, I got my hand raised. I loved it. And now that I'm older and I've got kids now, my kids wrestle. And the transition from all-star to coach is really painful. Because it's like, "I want to be on the mat." Like, "Ah, they're doing things wrong." And like at first it's really painful. And then eventually, for me, my kids, this is my twins third year wrestling. And this year was so rewarding, because the stuff we've been working on, they're finally getting it. And to see them get their hand raised, actually felt better than my own hand raise, which is weird, because I was like, it's been the greatest moment of my life, is getting my own hand raised. And with business was similar, because the first two years of ClickFunnels, I was the all-star. People were like, "How big was your funnel building team?" It was me. I built the funnels, I wrote the sales presentations... Todd was doing the software, I was doing everything else. And I was the all-star. I'm doing the webinars, I'm flying around the world, I'm speaking, I'm doing stuff, my hand's getting raised over and over and over again. And as we started growing, it started getting harder and harder for me to handle that. And I remember three years ago, it was this spot where it's just like the pressure so much. I was just at a breaking point. I'm like, "I don't know what to do." I remember where I was at. It was some other conversation, but the thought that popped in my head was like, "You have to transition from being the all-star to being the coach. At the time, I had hired a couple people and they would go, they'd write copy for me or they'd build the funnel for me. And they'd do it. And I felt like it was like Michael Jordan. There are people that go up to shoot a shot, and he's like, "I shoot better” and grab it and just dunk on them, right. I felt like I was doing that. My team would come in, they'd get some like, "Oh this sucks." I'd go in and delete it all and rewrite it and fix it all. And like, "Oh I'm an all-star, look how good I am." And it was holding me back and them back and everything. And I was like, I have to make this transition to being the coach. So that was the whole second phase was, at first, it's hard. But now I'm looking at my team, now my team is getting so good. They're producing stuff and they're creating without me. And it's like they say to me, now they want something. I'm like that like, "Ah." Same thing, it feels better getting your hand raised when your team is doing it now. It's interesting. Mark: Well, you got a great model, really quick, I just want to interject, from wrestling. Dan Gable was kind of seen as the greatest wrestler of all time. And then he was... Now he's kind of universally recognized as the greatest coach of all time as well, across all sports. Right? Russell: Yeah. Mark: There are very few people who would deny that Dan Gable is the best coach of any sport, of all time. Russell: Think about how many people, making the jump from that, how many great athletes never become coaches? And I think a lot of it is the ego, right? It's been really hard for me, both coaching my kids and then coaching the team. There's this ego thing. You're like, "I can do it better." Or whatever. And it's so hard. And so anyone that can make that transition from all-star to coach, I have so much respect for them, because it takes a lot. Mark: Ego is tricky man, because the ego battle is probably the... That's the battle, right? Because the ego kind of drives you. That pride drives you so much in the beginning. Russell: It's the fuel, initially. It's the reason why I want your hand raised. The ego's the driving force, initially. And then it becomes the thing, that holds you back in the next phase. Like, "What?" Like, "You were such a great friend over here, now you're screwing me over." Mark: What just happened. Well, this is the genius of the design of the universe, right? It's like every time we think we've got to figured out, it's like, "nope, you don't." Because, whatever designed this, whatever your cosmology of the universe is, call it God or whatever, is infinitely smarter than you are. And it's going to come up with so many ways to trick you and keep you off balance, that every time you think you got it dialed in, there's going to be a new challenge that's going to come up. And you have to love that. It's kind of beautiful. Right? Russell: Oh, yeah. Mark: Because that's what keeps life interesting. It would be so dull without it. Russell: Yeah, it's so much fun.

I’ve done over 50 interviews to promote the book, but this one was one of my favorites, I hope you love it! On this episode Russell is interviewed by fellow entrepreneur, Pete Vargas about how to get traffic. Here are some of the awesome things to listen for in this special episode: Find out the difference between buying traffic, and working for traffic. See how getting people to your product or service works the same way Hollywood gets you to watch movies. See why figuring out your dream 100 is the key to getting lots of traffic. And find out why having a platform is the best thing you can do. So listen here to hear Pete Vargas interview Russell about some of biggest secrets to getting traffic. ---Transcript--- Hey what’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. I want to welcome you back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Man, I don’t know about you but I am in publishing mode. I’ve been doing more interviews than anyone ever in the history of the…just kidding, at least for me. Tons of interviews, tons of Facebook Lives, tons of videos, tons of stuff. I guess when you can’t meet and do other things, all you can do is publish stuff. And it’s been a lot of fun and I’m sure you haven’t been on all 50 or 60+ interviews that I have been doing. But today I did the one that I think was the best. It was Pete Vargas, and it was about Traffic Secrets and he kind of steered me in a direction and let me go, and I really enjoyed it. It was probably so far, of all the ones I’ve done, the one where I think I did the best. So there you go, I don’t know if that’s cocky or arrogant or just I’ve done it 50 times and I’m figuring out how to tell my stories the best way. But I wanted to share this one with you guys, so it’s kind of a recap of what I’ve been talking about on so many interview, but I think the one that I told the stories the best and the most interesting. So if you had a chance to read the Dotcom, or excuse me, not the Dotcom Secrets, the new Traffic Secrets book, you’ve probably heard some of these stories. But if you haven’t yet, this will leave you hopefully excited about learning what it is and how it works and why this is so vital and so important today out of all days. So with that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song for the Marketing Secrets show, and when we come back you’re going to have a chance to listen into an interview I did with Pete Vargas talking about Traffic Secrets book and a bunch of other really cool things. I hope that it gives you some ideas, and if nothing else, it gets you excited to go buy a copy of the Traffic Secrets book. I’ve already sold  over 50,000 copies, which is so cool. Especially considering that the average New York Times Bestseller book only sells 10,000 copies during its initial week. So thank you all so much for your support, and if for some reason you haven’t got your book yet, now is the time to go to trafficsecrets.com. Alright thanks again, and with that said I’m going to queue up the theme song and then when we come back you’ll have a chance to listen in on an interview with me with Pete Vargas. PETE: Ladies and gentlemen, the founder of Clickfunnels built a company from zero to nine figures, I’m so stoked to have my good friend and one of my mentors, Russell Brunson. Russell, are you there my friend? RUSSELL: I’m here Pete, how are you doing man? PETE: Dude, I’m excited to have you bro. It’s lighting up, people are sharing it, and they’re excited to hear from you today, man. RUSSELL: I’m excited to be here and excited to be hanging out with everybody, this is insane. PETE: Russell has built a business from zero to nine figures, and he is a brilliant guy. Russell, in the midst of what’s going on in our world crisis, before we start jamming on traffic and funnels and what’s working in Traffic Secrets, which I’m stoked to give out a ton of those books today, you’ve been through crisis, you’ve faced it, you’ve been kind of rock bottom even in your business journey before. And I don’t ask everybody this, but I feel like I’m supposed to ask you that today, because you’ve been there. Can you kind of take people through that time? I know the story but a lot of these folks don’t know it. Take us through that time when you faced crisis and kind of what you did to get out of that, man. RUSSELL: Yeah, for sure. It’s funny because I’ve been doing this now, this is my 17th year in this business. So people think I look like I’m 11 years old, but I’ve been doing it for a little while, so I’ve had a chance twice where because of my stupid business decisions almost went bankrupt, and then once because of when the whole last recession hit. We did really well during the first month or two of the recession, or year or so of the recession, and then we got hit hard. I remember having to walk in one day and laying off 80 people in one day, and a lot of them were friends and family members, and you know their kids, and you know all the people and it is like the scariest, scariest thing in the world. So I’ve definitely been on that side of it, praying and working my butt off to make sure that we don’t have that happen, you know for our team members during this crisis, and hopefully as many people that we have a chance to work with, at the same time. But it’s definitely a scary thing. And I remember in the moment, because we were in these things during the moment, and everything feels like it’s right here and it’s stressful and pain and all the things that are happening. And man, it’s just like, almost every trial in life we get from God, we look back on it later, and it’s like, “Oh, that was so essential for me to go through because it shifted something in me, where I had to become someone different, I had to become someone better. I had to do something that was uncomfortable, but I was forced to do it because of the thing that happened. And because of that, everything great happened because of it, afterwards.” I look at just right now, between my wife, our family, and our company, if it wasn’t for that, for me the darkest, most painful time in my life, when we lost everything, I had to fire everything, I had friends and family members walking out on me, I thought everything was crashing to the ashes. If it wasn’t for that experience and that moment where I lost everything, we wouldn’t have had what we needed to create what has become Clickfunnels. And it’s had a chance to effect and touch so many people’s lives. So I think it’s important while we’re in the middle of it, while we’re in the middle of the pain and the stress, or whatever we’re all going through is to realize that this moment is a refining process for all of us, and the thing that you’re called to do that’s going to happen on the other side of this, this is preparing you for it now. Just understand that and kind of ride the wave as we go through this. And yeah, some people are going lose jobs, lose houses, lose loved ones, and there’s pain and there’s those things, but you know, if we know anything from history and from time and from, just the way that God works with all of us, if we endure through it, and we try to become better through this process, something amazing will happen on the other side. So anyway, that’s why I keep looking forward, the hope and the light on that side of it, because some people get caught up in the fear and it freezes them, and it’s like, no, don’t get frozen. Get unfrozen, go through this refining process, and something amazing is going to be happening on the other side. PETE: And it’s pretty cool Russell because you on the other side of it created Clickfunnels, which is now a tool that we use and so many of our students use. It’s one of the only tools that we recommend, which is Clickfunnels. And a lot of people have questions about sales funnels and a lot of that, and we’re going to continue to tackle that through this challenge, and I’m just going to be honest guys, Clickfunnels is the place that allows it to make it simple for an entrepreneur to take their stuff online. Russell, I obviously want to jam on this because listen, I created a lot of stuff, and until I started getting traffic it didn’t matter. And the reason why this challenge has been so amazing, we’re going to have 100,000 people most likely by midweek, to end of week, that’s called traffic. That’s traffic. And there was nobody from the outside world that’s promoted this. And my, what I’ve learned from you and I say this all the time, Russell and Ryan Deiss are the two people that I’ve learned everything from, which is why it was a no brainer for them both to be here. I know we could jam on all of this, but I want to go the route you want to go, but we have so many people that are trying to figure out what to do in the midst, and I’m like, dude, this guy’s a wealth of knowledge, I want to jam wherever you want to go. So I want to shut up, and just learn and take notes bro. RUSSELL: I think what I was going to start with, it’s interesting right now, I launched the book, the book launch day was the same day that President Trump told everybody to go home, which was kind of this weird thing. And then I saw, I mean all of us have seen in real time, what happens to a business when traffic dries up. Literally, there are mom and pop shops all down the street here, and people, traffic is driving down the street and they see, “Oh it’s a restaurant.” And they stop and they pull in and they walk in. And that’s how they live their business, traffic was their life blood. Looking at traffic as a literal, like traffic driving past the store front, that’s the life blood of a business. As soon as the quarantines happened and traffic stopped, what happened to these businesses? They’re dying, they’re disappearing, it’s the scariest thing. And if you look at any business, traffic is the life blood. And I’m curious of people who are listening right now in the comments, how many of you guys know that you’ve got the best product or service or idea, or something in the world, and you see your competitors, and your competitors are worse than you. They’re not serving the customers the way that you would serve them? You know that your solution, your idea, your product, whatever it is you’re passionate about, you know can help more people than the competitors, but all the competitors, people are buying their products, right. And it’s driving you crazy because you’re like, “Man, I feel like I got this calling, I’ve been called to serve this group of people, I can do it in a way that’s unique to me, that nobody else can do, but for some reason I can’t get my message out in front of people.” And that’s when so many people come to me, just like, ‘I know that I have something, I just don’t know how to get it out there.” so you know, the work we do with Clickfunnels is all about building funnels to get your message out and learning how to tell your story in the right way, and this last chapter that we’ve been focusing on really heavily right now is traffic, it’s the missing piece. And I think that most people when they hear about traffic, they think about, “Oh I need to run Facebook ads, or I need to run Google ads.” The problem with that is, that’s a tactic, it’s a strategy that works right now for a little while, but it changes, and for those of you guys who you’ve only been in business for 6 months, or a year, or 5, even like 10 years. The last 10 years, it’s been pretty good. Ever since Mark Zuckerberg came in, man, I love Mark. He’s made our lives so easy. But I tell you what, I remember what happened when Google started, and it was really easy for me, and then the first Google slap happened. And then we had to shift our whole business around and half the people I knew who had businesses lost them when the first Google slap happened. And the ones that lasted, the next Google slap happened, the next wave got cut, and the next wave got cut. And I started looking at, right now we’re in this window where Facebook and Instagram have been really easy, but I know what’s going to be happening. And it may be Mark Zuckerberg comes in and changes the rules, but right now I can’t tell you how many people are losing their ads accounts, getting things shut down and they’re freaking out. Also, we have no idea with government regulations. What happens if the government decides that Mark Zuckerberg is running a monopoly, which I mean, you know we’re going to get in trouble the next day for a violation? Whatever the thing, they could disappear tomorrow for any of us. And for most people listening, if you do have a business, you probably  built it on that one foundation, and if you don’t have a business yet, it’s scary to build them in one spot. Because if that disappears, just like I saw happening in Google over and over and over again, half of entrepreneurs or more businesses will dry up and disappear overnight. So my whole goal with this book was, I’m not going to teach people the tactic of how to run a Facebook ad or a Google ad, I’m helping people understand strategically how traffic works, because when you understand that it supersedes any of those things. So the way that I, the way that when you have a chance to go through the book, I kind of walk through the very first chapter, it’s all about really understanding your dream customer. And Pete, you kind of led with the fact that we both have faith in God, and I think we both have a very similar belief, and I talk about this in the book, I believe that all of us entrepreneurs and business owners, if you’ve ever felt that tug, “I need to be doing something, I need to be helping someone.” Alex Charfen calls it the call of contribution, you’ve heard that call of contribution, “I’m supposed to be doing something.” That pull, that is a literal calling from God, it is a blessing. And I feel like businesses always, business is a blessing, is a calling from God. You say, alright this is a group of people you are called to serve, you need to figure out how to help them, to serve them, whatever, whatever capacity you can. So for me, whatever reason, as I was growing up in life I got obsessed with sales funnels and marketing and direct response. Who knows, why was I interested in that? I have no idea, but now fast forward 15 years later, it’s like, oh because that’s your calling. Like Pete, how in the world, you’re the guy that gets people on stages. Why did I, how did I get put in your lap, and why did all these chain of events happen that made you the best in the world at that thing? It doesn’t make sense why it happens until later, you’re like, “Oh, because that’s my calling. I’m supposed to be helping people.” So for everyone listening to this, there’s been a chain of events, things that have happened in your life, that have prepared you to be able to serve a group of people. So the first part of traffic is not how do I target people between the ages of 22 and 13 through Instagram, the first question is “Who is your dream customer? Who is that person you’ve been called to serve? Who are you supposed to change their life?” And that’s where I want to start, because most people don’t start there, and that’s the most important part about traffic. Because traffic is humans, it’s just people like that, like us. The first question is that, and for all you guys, you need to understand that at a deep level. Deeper than just like, “Oh yeah, I’m helping women. I’m helping men.” No, who? Who does that person look like? I got so obsessed with this that I remember I went into Google and I went to Google images, and I typed in all the phrases of my dream customer, what they did, what they looked like, all the stuff I could think of. And it popped up all these Google images of faces, and I was like, “That’s my person. That’s the person I want to serve.” And I took the picture and printed it out and put it on my wall. I did one for a man and for a woman, and I had them on my wall forever. I was like, “That’s who I’m trying to serve.” That’s the level you need to get into so you can start thinking what they think, what they’re excited by, what they’re passionate about. Because if you’re going to serve them, you need to know them even more intimately than they know themselves, that’s number one. Then number two, the coolest thing about the internet is that people, the internet gives all of us the ability to group together based on similar beliefs and values and things that we’re excited by. So for all you guys listening, start thinking about this in your own life. Where are the places on the internet that you congregate right now? Start thinking about what things are important to me. I’m very passionate about business, I hang out in different business blogs and forums and groups and podcasts. Right? I’m also interested in biohacking, so I listen to all the biohacking podcasts. I’m listening to, I’m plugged into all the biohacking blogs. I have these communities of people that are excited about the same things I am. So I congregate in different spots. I guarantee for all of you guys, you get the same thing. You’re congregating in different groups based on the stuff you’re excited by. So if the first question is “Who is your dream customer?” The second question is, “Where do they congregate?” It’s a simple question. When you start thinking about that it opens up this whole new world of traffic to you. It’s not just like, I’m going to target them on Instagram or whatever, it’s “Oh my gosh, here’s the 30 top blogs that all of them are reading. This blog’s got 300,000 readers a month, this one’s got 100,000, this one’s got a million readers.” These are the blogs they’re reading. And the second phase is then, “What podcasts do they listen to?” You can literally, it’s so funny people are like, “What’s your biggest traffic strategy?” and I’m like, “Get your phone out, open up the podcasting app.” so if you’re using Apple there’s a free podcasting app, everyone’s got it. And Apple will actually categorize the top podcast in the world.” So what’s cool, you go to browse and you scroll down where it says top shows, and then right here next to top shows it says, “See all” you click see all, and you click on the very top it says, “All Categories” and it shows you all the different categories that there’s podcasts in. I scroll through here and it’s like, “Oh, there’s health and fitness, kids, leisure, music, business, education, religion and spirituality,” here’s all these congregations of people. So let’s say I have a product that helps kids and family, so I click on it, and what’s crazy is this is going to show me the top 200 kids and family podcasts in the world. I get people all the time like, “If I could just get on the Ellen show, I’d be rich.” “If I could get on Good Morning America with my product, I’d be rich.” You don’t understand, people aren’t watching TV anymore, they’re plugging into these things right here. So right now, Brain On Science, podcast for kids, I don’t know what that is, it’s the number one podcast. I bet you it gets more downloads per month than any TV show right now, which means if you can get your product and service on that podcast, because you figure out where are my people congregating. They’re congregating on this podcast, and that one and that one. All these different podcast, there’s 200 places your dream customers are congregating, plugging into their ears and listening to their most intimate moments. There’s 200 places I can get traffic that aren’t Facebook, that if Zuckerberg shuts down my account, I can still go here and I can get traffic from podcasts. And the same thing is true in blogging and in YouTube. There’s so many places that your dream customers are congregating, and if you really understand who they are, it’s not hard to figure out where they’re actually at. So that’s kind of how we shift traffic, the mindset, the shift is just, instead of like, “How do I target somebody?” It’s a bigger thing of like, “Who is my customer? Where are they congregating?” and then start making lists. I literally have lists in my office of like, here’s all the YouTube channels my dream customers are watching. Here’s all of the Instagram influencers I’m following. Here’s all the YouTubes, and I go through all these huge lists of people, and we then figure out where they’re at. PETE: Dude, that’s so good. Guys, he just gave you one traffic strategy right now that literally will help all of you win if you’re serious about getting your stuff out to the market. And this is what I think when I’m hearing this Russell, two things. Number one, I think of this idea, a lot of people say, “Pete, you’re the stage guy, so you must be terribly hip right now.” No, because I talk about 11 digital stages, and 11 physical stages. We have 22 stages that we go after, so I’m having to lean more into the digital stage bucket. What Russell is teaching you right now is like a portfolio of traffic. Everybody thinks Google or Facebook, and they’re good right now, trust me, this is the cheapest we’ve ever gotten leads on Facebook in the history of me running ads Russell. But that’s not the only sources where we have traffic. Russell’s teaching you a whole portfolio, and obviously he’s dialing into a few, but you’ve got to have a portfolio of traffic. I believe this book right now for Russell, for people, is a lifeline for what’s going on in this world right now. Bro, that’s just bomb. Keep going man, they’re loving it dude. They’re blowing the comments up over here. RUSSELL: Very cool. Okay, I want to, I’ll tell a story that kind of illustrates this as well so you can see it in the real world. Because sometimes you’re like, “That doesn’t make sense Russell. There’s podcasts, so now what do I do?” And so right now, obviously, I don’t know if everybody, I think most everybody in the world is in quarantine right now, right? Or some version of it? Some people it’s like, “You can’t leave your house.” Some it’s like, “Please stay at your house.” So for us, with my kids, I’ve got 5 kids, so that’s a lot of kids for anyone who doesn’t know. And I love them but it’s a lot. So every night we’re like, “We’re going to do something fun together as a family.” So we started watching all of the Marvel movies from the very beginning, in chronological order. So Captain America, Captain Marvel, and so on and so forth, we’re watching them all in order. And I’m really excited because by the time we get to the end of it, we’re about halfway through right now, when we get to the end of it, the next Marvel movie coming out, does anyone know what it is, by the way? What is the next Marvel coming out? Pete, you don’t know? I am hurt, Pete. Don’t know if I can be on this interview anymore… PETE: Dude, I’ve watched them all. RUSSELL: So the new one coming out is Black Widow, so that’s the next one coming out. It was supposed to come out in May, but it got bumped until November, which makes me sad, but I can still use this story to illustrate my point. So think about this, we see this all the time happening in Hollywood. Yet, for some reason with our internet business we think it’s different. So think about when Black Widow starts coming out, what is Hollywood going to do? They’re going to go and do the same thing I just talked about. Who are the dream customers, where are they congregating? And the first thing Hollywood is going to do, is they’re going to go and they’ll be like, they’re going to buy ads at these places. So they’re going to run ads on TV, so you’ll see they’re paying for ads on TV. They’re going to go to actual movie theaters where people are sitting in the theater and say, and people who go to movie theaters like to go to movie theaters. They’re going to buy all the trailers before the movie, pitching when Black Widow is coming out. So they’re going to be paying, they’re going to find all the congregations, they’re going to buy their way in. And then about a week before the opening premier what they’re going to do is say, “Okay, the people that are going to come to the event, where are their eyeballs at? Where are they hanging out?” and they’ll look, okay, they’ll be watching the Today Show and The Tonight Show and Good Morning America, and Jimmy Fallon and the other Jimmy, I don’t even know, I don’t watch enough TV to know. But all the talk shows, right. And you’ll start seeing a week before the movie comes out, Scarlet Johansen is going to come out, we all love Scarlet Johansen in our family, she’s going to come out and she’ll be on every single show. She’s going to tell them that she’s going to be on the show and then she’s going to show them a little clip from the video and be like, “This weekend is opening night. Make sure you get in yourself into the theaters.” And she’s going to push, and she’s going to be working her way in. So all the Marvel, or Disney or whatever, they’re buying their way in, they’re busying ads to all these places, and then the second act is they’re working their way in. They’re having Scarlet Johansen, or whoever the actress is, or the actor, go and be in all these different shows, telling their story, getting people excited, and getting them to come to this show. So they’re buying their way in and they’re working their way in. You see it with every movie, with every album that comes out, this is what Hollywood does over and over and over again. So right now, I’m in the middle of my book launch, and the same thing I did. I launched my book and now I’m buying ads everywhere. My guess is that if you’ve ever seen my face once in your entire life, or you’ve heard my name, now my ads are popping up everywhere and you’re probably sick and tired of me, because I’m buying my way in everywhere. But at the same time, I’m doing the same thing I’m talking about. I went to every single podcast in the business directory and I’m working my way in. I’ve done, I think 50+ podcast interviews in the last week and a half or two weeks. I’ve done a Facebook live, every single that’s got a Facebook channel, I’ve been doing interviews there. I’m working my way in. I’m going to every blogger, and working with them on blog articles. I’m working my way into all these channels. So I’m buying my way in and I’m working my way in. Right now we’re sitting here live with thousands of people watching, I’m working my way, and I’m here, Pete didn’t pay me to be here, I did not pay him to be here. I’m coming and working and serving and giving and hoping, and hopefully at the end of it you guys are like, “I need to get that book, that sounds amazing.” Right. Just like at the end of the movies, Scarlet Johansen is like, “I hope they come and watch the movie this weekend.’ So for any of you guys who have a product or service, start looking at it through this lens of like, it’s not just a target on Facebook, go do that, but it’s like, “Okay, where are all t he places my dream customers are at? I need to figure out how can I buy my way in and how can I work my way in?” And sometimes you can do both as well. Sometimes you can’t. For example, one of the podcasts, Jenna Kutcher’s got the Goal Digger podcast, which is a huge podcast. I was like, “I want to be on that podcast.” But guess what, she only interviews women on that podcast. So I’m like, I can’t, unless I…..I don’t know, it’s not going to be easy to get on her podcast. So I can’t work my way in, but guess what I can do? I can buy ads on it. So we pay her to run ads selling my book on her podcast. So I’m working my way, I’m buying my way in. So I’m looking at all these different congregations everywhere, how can I work my way in, and how can I buy my way in. I find someone with a big blog with 500,000 readers, here’s this huge blog, “Can I buy ads on it? Can I buy a banner ad? Can I work my way? Can I do a guest post? How can I gain access to this huge source and this huge stream of traffic?” and when you do that, it unlocks thousands of customers for you often times and it’s so much fun. PETE: I think we’ve gotta get your lovely wife on Jenna’s podcast. That’s what I think. RUSSELL: Collette tell her this. Feed my wife lines. PETE: I started my women’s brand here, and this is how I’m getting traffic.  Dude, this is so good. People are lighting it up. Keep going man, I mean, keep dropping this. RUSSELL: Get your ads everywhere, everywhere. PETE: And you should see, Facebook is lighting it up over here too. RUSSELL: Oh, very cool. So much fun, I love this game if you guys can’t tell. It’s so much fun. Okay, I’ll get into the next step in the strategy. I don’t know, I have no idea how long we’re supposed to be going for, but would it be cool if I give the next step? Because the next step is like…. PETE: Dude, we’ve got 15 minutes here. We’ve got literally, technically 30 minutes left, but we could go…. RUSSELL: We’re good. There’s no wedding happening after this, that we should be kicked out of the ballroom. PETE: No wedding. RUSSELL: Okay, so we come back. Who’s your dream customer? Where are they congregating? How do I work my way in, buy my way in? The next thing to think about, this is the next strategic level, is let’s say I find this blog and it’s got 500,000 readers, so I figure out how do I get access to all of the people in there? The one step above that is a concept that I talk about in chapter two here, it’s called the dream 100. And I learned it initially my friend, his name is Chet Holmes, he passed away a few years ago. But he had this concept called the dream 100. The way that he used the Dream 100 is a little bit different than how I use it. But what he would do is he had a bunch of fortune 500 companies he wanted to get. So he made the list of the top hundred companies and he would build a strategic marketing campaign where every single week he was marketing directly to these 100 customers. And he told me that I was like, “That’s cool, but I don’t know how to use that because I sell books, and I sell software. I can’t spend a bunch of money. I can’t spend $500 or $1000 to get someone to buy a book because I’ll go broke really fast.” So I started looking at it from a different lens and I said, “Wait a minute, what if I look at the 200 podcasters that have these podcasts, and let’s say the 100 blogs I know in my market and the 100 YouTube Channels and the 100 Instagram influencers in my market. What if I took that and those became my dream 100. And instead of just spending all my time marketing to the followings of those people, which I will, I’m still going to buy ads and stuff, but what if I spent more money marketing to the person who controls that blog or that podcast or whatever that is?” So I was like, “I’m going to try it.” So I went and I made a, I called it a dream 100 list. For those of you guys who get a copy of the book, on page I think it’s 41, yeah, page 41 I have a little graph of how I do it. So if you’re watching the video you can kind of see it. This is the graphic right here. But basically it says Facebook, and the top of the cross is Facebook, Instagram, podcasts, YouTube, email, so you have the list of different platforms. And down below is a list. Who’s all the people on Facebook who already have my dream customers? And I make a whole list of those people. And who are all the Instagram people? I make a list of them. And who are all the podcasters? So by the time it’s done I have a list of like 50 or 100 or 500 or however many you want. We call it the dream 100. So now I say, “What if I spend some time or money marketing to those 100 people what could possibly happen?” So I did my very first book about 6 years ago, this first one is called Dotcom Secrets, when I was launching that, I didn’t have a big list of customers at the time. I was like, “Okay, I need to figure this out.” So I did exactly what I’m telling you. I built a dream 100 list, I had I don’t know, 100 podcasters, I had my list of all the people and I sent out a free copy of the book to all these people. I think it ended up going out to like 3 or 400 different people. I said, “Here’s a copy of my book. If you like it, I’d love to be on your podcast or on your show.” Or whatever and just sent it to people. And I sent it out there and then nothing happened for a little bit. And then probably a week or two later, I got my first call back, it was from a guy named John Lee Dumas, from Entrepreneur on Fire. And JLD was like, and I had never met him before, this is how I met JLD, I sent him a copy of my book in the mail because he had a podcast in the top 200 podcast in the podcast directory. And he messaged me back, he’s like, “Russell, I read your book. This is really, really good.” I was like, “Cool dude.” And he’s like, “Do you want to be on my podcast and we can, I can interview you about the book?” I was like, “Heck yeah dude, let’s do it.” So I jumped on a podcast, he reads about the book, a little while later the podcast goes live, and from that one interview alone we ended up selling over 500 copies of the book. And that was from one person. Now JLD wasn’t the only person who said yes. From that I got 30 or 40 people who messaged me back and we started doing this thing all over the place and that’s how we ended up selling 100,000 copies of the book, by doing this dream 100 strategy. It wasn’t me targeting the audience, I mean we did, we targeted the audience, sold ads, but it was when the gate keeper, the person who owned the traffic said yes, that one yes, it turns into 500 customers, or 1000 customers or more. And that’s the magic. People all the time who tell me, I ask what their traffic strategy is, they’re like, “Facebook.” I’m like, “Okay, so Mark Zuckerberg is one person on your dream 100. You’ve got one, now you 99 more. Because if Mark decides he doesn’t like you one day, your business is done. It’s game over.” So look at Facebook as one of your dream 100. Mark Zuckerberg is one person, you need 99 more. That’s when I started looking at traffic and started figuring out how to work my way in, how to buy my way, how to get to know these people, how do I build relationships. As you get to know people, it opens up these huge doors where now, again, one person like a JLD does a podcast interview that sells 500 books. One person gets you on their podcast, talking about your new kids course, or the kid product you have coming out, and you’re on the kid podcast, boom, you sell thousands of them overnight. That’s the magic or really understanding how this online traffic stuff works. PETE: Hey guys, the one nugget I’ve got from Russell today, a ton, but the one that, I always look for the one I can implement, Russell. That’s when I’m like, “God, which one can implement right away?” I’m doing dream 100 wrong. I gotta do it like this. If I can do dream 100 like this, now dude, if Facebook shuts down I’m cool. I might see a little bit of drop off, but if this shuts down it’s kind of like multi-units. Like if you lose one renter you’re okay because you still got 99 other renters that are still paying. That’s how Russell is making it. It’s like a paradigm shift in my mind. It’s one of the biggest misconceptions is they won’t let me on their channel of traffic. Russell will you tackle that for a quick second? Because you weren’t, like JLD didn’t know you, but will you tackle that for all of them like, ‘I’m not a big name. I’m not known.” I would love for you to tackle that. RUSSELL: Yeah, I think it’s important to understand that people care less about, I mean yeah, they want a big name on a show, but for the most part, people that got their own podcast or shows or blog, they’re looking for content, they’re craving content, and what’s more interesting to them, more so than a name is a hook. What’s the hook, what’s the story going to be about? So if you say, ‘I’m going to come on your show and you can interview me about how great I am.” That’s tough. Unless you’re like the greatest person in the world, they’re like, “That’s not going to be a big thing.” Even me, to this day, I don’t pitch, “Do you want to interview Russell Brunson?” Whatever that means, I’m just like an 11 year old kid sitting in my house right now. It’s not that important or that cool. What’s cool is I come into it with a hook like, “Okay, I’ve got a really cool message I can share. This is what it is, this is why it’d be awesome for your audience.” And I pitch it to them just like I was going to pick TV. If I was trying to get on the Ellen show, I’m pitch them a show concept. So I’m coming with something like that, that’s what hooks them. They care more about the hook because that’s what’s going to get listeners and viewers and eyeballs for them. We always make fun of all of the clickbait sites that show up in clickbait-y stuff, those companies make insane amounts of money. And they don’t even care if the story is true or false, they couldn’t care less, they’re just looking for the story that’s going to hook people’s attention to get them to come to read, so people will click on ads, which is unethical and immoral and you shouldn’t do that. But I’m saying is, that’s the power of what media cares about, they care about a story. That’s the most important thing. So you’re coming to them saying, “What’s your story?” What’s something you can share with their audience that’s unique? They care more about the story than about the name, the brand. Most people, even if they know who I am, their audience doesn’t know or care who I am. They do care if I can come say, “Look, during times of economic downturn if your Facebook account got shut down, things like that, I’ve got a different way to look at traffic that will actually make it easier to get traffic right now than ever possible.” They’re like, “Oh my gosh, my people are struggling right now with traffic.” It opens up that gate. So just looking at the story you have that ties back to your product or your service. Just like if you were trying to pitch it to get on, again, traditional media like the Today Show. You always gotta go pitch them a show. They don’t care who you are, they just care about a story that they can promote. That’s what gets people to listen to their podcast or read their blog or whatever the thing is, that’s what they really want. So that’s what you’re offering them. PETE: Yeah, I love that. So I’m stoked about this. Russell, kind of, I don’t know if there’s another step or two or if you want to bring it full circle, I’m ears now. RUSSELL: Yes, okay I’ll throw in one more thing. And this is, it kind of goes back to your question you asked, how do I get in with my dream 100? How do I get to know them? So the question is always like, “What do I have to offer my dream 100? I’m a nobody, what do I have that’s going to get them? How do I serve them? How do I get them to even want to know who I am?” So I want to tell you guys, the most powerful thing that you have that you can offer your dream 100 is a platform. Look at just for example, everybody who Pete has had on this live series, which is insane. He’s had billionaires, he’s had people, it’s crazy. What does Pete have to offer everybody that’s unique? Why did they return his call? Why did they show up? That’s because Pete has a platform. Pete can say, “I’m going to do this thing. And you might have 3500 people live watching.” That’s a platform that anybody is crazy to not jump to try to get access to right. ‘ So I’ll tell you guys a story that will illustrate this. How many of you guys remember back in the early, maybe late 80s, early 90s there was a TV show, late night TV show with Arsenio Hall, how many of you guys remember Arsenio Hall? If you do, everyone do this right now while you’re sitting at home, because we all…yes, and for everyone who doesn’t know who Arsenio Hall is, what is Russell doing? So this late night talk show, he was the man, he had a talk show. In fact, it was so big that when President Clinton was running for President, Arsenio Hall called him up and was like, “Hey man, you want to perform on the show?” and he’s like, “Yes.” And he came on the show, he played Heartbreak Hotel on his saxophone, and many people credit that, the fact that he was on Arsenio Hall show playing the saxophone, to the reason why he won the presidential candidate, the presidential…became president. It’s because he was on that show, and it said it swayed so many of the minorities and the younger voters that he wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. Now fast forward to 2 years later, the Arsenio Hall show gets canceled, off the air, gone. And nobody hears form Arsenio Hall again for decades. The guy is off the radar. For all we know he died. Then one day, I think it was 2002 I believe, during Celebrity Apprentice, they have all these celebrities, washed up celebrities that come back on the show, typically. So Celebrity Apprentice is there, and one of the contestants is Arsenio Hall. And I’m watching and I’m like, ‘That’s Arsenio Hall, he was the man. What happened to that guy?” I had no idea. And then fast forward, I think it was like 3 or 4 episodes in, they were doing this fundraising gig, where they go out and they have to go raise funds. So all the celebrities are calling their rich buddies and trying to get money. And some guys raised like a couple million dollars for charity, other people $500,000. Every single one of the celebrities raised money for charity except for one person, Arsenio Hall. He raised exactly zero dollars the entire day. And you see him on the phone calling his phonebook, he’s calling every single person. And right before he goes in the boardroom, there’s this little window of time where they interview him and he says this quote that like, I’m sure most people didn’t hear, but when he said it just hit me. He said, “Man, when I had my own show, everybody returned my calls.” And I was like, “Oh.” Do you guys see the power in that? When he had his own show, even the future most powerful man on the earth, the president of the United States came on his show because he had a platform. The platform disappears, no one will return his calls. So that’s for you all to understand, do you have a platform yet? If not, that is the key, that is how you infiltrate your dream 100. That’s how I got Tony Robbins to return my call. That’s how I’ve been able to get other people to return my call. Not because I’m this cool, Russell is so awesome. No, they don’t care about that. I have a platform I can offer them. That’s the thing you have of value. So if you don’t have a platform yet, now is the time to start building one. And I don’t care if it’s on YouTube or Instagram or podcasts, if you’re a blogger, it doesn’t matter where. Figure out which modality you like the most. If you like writing go start a blog. If you like video, start a YouTube channel, if you like podcasting, start a podcast…pick up whichever one you want and double down and start building your show, because if you don’t have a platform it gets really hard to get people to return your call. But when you do have one, everyone will return your call. And that’s really the power of how you infiltrate the dream 100. You’re giving them access to your platform. So all you guys, you need to start working on that, start building it. Even if you’re like, I don’t want to, in fact someone the other day who got a copy of the book is like, “If I get this book do I have to become like Gary Vaynerchuk and do 5000 videos a day?” No you don’t, but you need to be publishing something. It’s not the only thing you have to have traffic, but man, it makes so many things easier when you have a platform. S o that’s kind of the last thing I want to share, just man, every one of you guys should start thinking, “Man, how can I have my own platform? Because I want to make sure that when I pick up the phone to call the influencer in my industry, or the podcast I want to be on or whatever, now I’ve got some value I can offer them” and the thing of value you have for people, is access to your own platform. PETE: Dude, I love that Russell. A lot of you are like, “What’s a funnel?” Russell, maybe you can just tackle that for 2 minutes. Help, like I know 70% might know what it is, 30% don’t understand funnel. It’s been said a lot this week. Can the guru, the master of funnels, can you give us the elementary funnel explanation of what a funnel is so people know what to build in their business? I know that’s a big topic, but I’m sure you can give a two minute answer. Russell: It’s tough because there are so many different types of funnels. There’s funnels to generate leads, there’s funnels to sell products, there’s funnels to do live events, there’s different funnels for different things. But basically a funnel is a step by step sales process. So you can tell it’s a funnel because usually each step in the process only asks you to do one thing. Unlike a shopify store is like, 8000 things you can order, a funnel always is like, each page has one specific call to action, like “Give me your email address.” Then you do that. The next page is like, “Watch this video and then I want you to buy this thing.” And the next page is like, “Here’s an upsell.” So it’s taking you through a step by step simple sales process, and by doing that two things happen. Number one, you increase how much money you get for every single person that comes in. Like every, all the traffic, each person that comes into your funnel, you’ll make more money from them. And second off, it actually gives them a better experience as well. They go through a funnel, they’re not being bombarded with all these options and opportunities. It’s just step by step, here’s the first thing you need, second thing, the third thing. And you take them down a path of success. So it makes more money for the person who owns the funnel, and makes a better experience for the person who is going through the funnel as well. So that’s a basic… PETE: Dude, that’s perfect. RUSSELL: I can go deep for years on this. PETE: I know. Russell, thank you so much, bro. I appreciate it, man. RUSSELL: Thank you man, that was fun.

On this special episode with Russell’s first ever guest interview, we hear from Joe Marfoglio about the best things to do to grow your YouTube channel. Here are some of the informative things you’ll hear in this episode: Find out why thumbnails are so important to how many people watch your videos. Hear why Russell’s long intro on Funnel Hacker TV cost him views. And find out what tool you can use to not only track your own videos, but also the videos of your competitors. So listen here to find out Joe Marfoglio’s best tips to grow viewership on your YouTube channel. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets show. I hope you guys are excited for today. We have a special guest, and I’ve rarely, if ever, brought on a special guest to the show. But as we are getting closer and closer to the Traffic Secrets launch, I thought it would be fun to bring on Joe Marfoglio, who is the guy on our team who does all of our YouTube stuff. So we’re calling these tails of a funnel hacker, and Joe’s episode is going to be walking you guys through some of the stuff that we’re doing to grow our YouTube channel, and are following some things that didn’t make sense to me, like cutting out our amazingly designed intros and making thumbnails that look goofy because they increase viewership and a whole bunch of other stuff. He literally took one of our videos that had less than 1000 views, edited a couple of things and boosted it to over 100,000 views with no ads spent. So these are the kind of things he’ll be talking about on today’s episode. So I’m going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back you guys will have a chance to meet my friend Joe Marfoglio. Joe Marfoglio, Joe how are you doing, man? Joe: What’s happening man? Hey, glad to be here. Thank you for that awesome intro. Russell: Hey man, this is the first time we’ve done a live interview on this show before, which is really exciting. Very exciting. And I love you have your Funnel Hackers shirt on, and all your Two Comma Club awards in the back. Joe: That’s it man. I’m just waiting for the Two Comma Club X to come in the mail to kind of even out the set, it’s going to be awesome. Russell: Joe just won one last week, you guys, at Funnel Hacking Live he got one, which is pretty cool. Alright, so obviously we don’t have a ton of time, but I’ve got a lot of questions for you. So inside of the Traffic Secrets book, there’s a whole chapter on YouTube traffic. And most of it I pulled from you, because you are the guy who on our team is doing all of our YouTube, doing all this stuff, and you’ve done such an amazing job. So most of the things are there from you. So this is kind of to tease people a little bit about what’s happening inside the book, but also to just get them to know you and understand some more about YouTube. So why is YouTube, do you think, different than all the other platforms that are out there? You know, we’ve got Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, all this stuff, why YouTube, why are you so passionate about YouTube? Joe: You know, so yeah you have Facebook, Instagram, and I see a lot of people, it’s very easy, it’s sometimes easier for them to build a big following on Facebook or Instagram, they kind of go to YouTube and they struggle a little bit. And it’s because YouTube isn’t just a social media platform, it is a social media platform, but it’s also a search engine where people are searching for a certain, you know, certain topics. Maybe they’re searching how to do something. You know, so what you have to do with YouTube is not only put up content that’s engaging that people want to watch that has value, but you also have to add kind of a story element to it. And the one thing that you don’t want to do, and I see people do this, is kind of repurpose your content. Like say you have content you put on Facebook, and then Instagram or a podcast and you like, you know, and you distribute to all these different channels. If you put it on YouTube, a lot of times you find that it’s not going to get that much traction. And think about YouTube like this, when you watch YouTube yourself, if you guys are out there and you’re watching YouTube, why do you subscribe to a certain channel? If you’re going to subscribe, maybe they’re showing you how to make money online, or how to grow your instagram, but there’s a ton of videos on there that talk about how to grow your instagram channel, but it’s like, what makes you subscribe and want to watch somebody? It’s going to be their personality, it’s going to be the way they engage with you. And it’s going to be the way the content comes across. So what I would say for YouTube, the difference is, is treat YouTube like it’s it’s own thing. Make videos just for YouTube and try to approach it not as a marketer, but as a creator. Not that you’re going to sell anything but that you’re going to build your audience and your following. Russell: Yeah, one of my favorite things about YouTube too, and I talk about this in the book a little bit, every social platform, like let’s say you do a Facebook live, like we’re doing right now, it’s happening and then it’ll drop, it’ll be  here for the next couple of days, then it will drop down the newsfeed, and then eventually just disappears and nobody will ever see it again. Whereas YouTube is the only platform where you create something and then it grows over time, because it’s not just social, it’s social and a search. And that’s why it’s so, it’s different because you create something and if you create it the right way, then it sits there and it grows throughout time, as opposed to everything else, which seems to diminish over time. So it gives, at least someone for me, who’s creating stuff, it gives me more incentive to create stuff that’s nice because it’ll last beyond the moment. Whereas Facebook live is there for a moment, and then it’s gone. Whereas YouTube it can last for forever. I mean, like we talked about earlier, the Overcome Pornography videos, overcoming pornography addiction, they still get hundreds and hundreds of views every single month, and we don’t even sell the product anymore, which is probably sad because you were an affiliate making money when it was there. Joe: No, yeah that video, I think I sent you a screen shot when you were doing the book, and it has hundreds of clicks on there, and what it does is the content builds on each other. So you put a video out three years ago, and if you keep putting content out, you’re going to keep getting leads, you’re going to keep getting people subscribing and watching your stuff, and yeah, it doesn’t disappear, it just builds on top of each other. Russell: Okay, I want to ask another question, this is off the questions that you sent me as pre-questions, because I’m excited about this one, I hope that’s okay. I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. I think a lot of times people think YouTube strategies like, ‘Okay, I gotta make the most perfect video in the world.” And you look at companies like Dollar Shave club for example, where they made this video, and it goes crazy viral and then builds this huge company up, and he sells to whoever he sold for, for like a billion dollars. So we’re like, ‘Okay, I’ve got to make the perfect YouTube video.” And people stress about it and because of that, they never actually make something at all. Versus like, you told me, in the book we share the example, but you talked about the strategy of like Gillette or other things like that. Will you talk about that? Because I feel like that’s a strategy that more people like me could actually do. Not I gotta make the perfect video, instead looking at it a little differently. Will you talk about how Gillette did their strategy and how we can use that as well? Joe: Yeah, so here’s the thing. When you guys are starting your YouTube channel, think of it like in, the first thing you want to do is really go deep in your niche, whatever you’re doing. So for example, Gillette, what they did was they didn’t go out there and say, well, they did. They tried to make a viral video like Dollar Shave Club, and it flopped. So what they did was, they said, “Listen, we want to dominate for the keyword how to shave.” Because the people that watch how to shave videos buy our product. So they did how to shave your head, how to shave your back, how to shave your legs. They did all these videos that got hundreds of thousands and millions of views, and they were very targeted to their subscribers. So the thing I would tell people is, figure out what your niche is, figure out what you’re going to go after and go deep in that niche. Kind of like the way you explain the whole blue ocean strategy in Expert Secrets. Because, the one thing you don’t want to do is go and look at someone who has a million subscribers and follow what they do. So say you’re doing, because they’ve already been established, they already have a huge audience. So say you’re doing Amazon, what you want to do is go through Amazon and say, okay, make videos on Amazon, on Amazon FBA, on Amazon Drop Shipping, on Amazon Affiliate. And then go through and hit, every time, anything that someone is searching for Amazon, you want to make a video on. And it doesn’t have to be a perfect video, like you said. It just has to be engaging enough to get retention, but it doesn’t have to be this high production video. But what you don’t want to do, is you don’t want to make a video on Amazon, then make a video on how to make money online, then make a video on procrastination, then make a video on the Corona Virus. If you want it to, if you’re just starting, you want to create this traffic lane that like YouTube knows, “Okay, when Joe puts a video out, it’s going to be on Amazon.” And then they’ll start showing your video to more and more people that search like Amazon stuff, and then you can expand out from there. Russell: Very cool. Yeah, actually go look at Gillette’s. It’s funny, after you told me that story I went and looked in there and you see all the, there’s stuff that I never would have dreamt people are looking to shave. So, alright, there you go. There’s a video for that now too, which is awesome. It’s very cool. Okay, my next question for you is when someone creates, let’s say they’re creating videos and posting them on YouTube and they’re not getting any traction, they’re not getting a lot of views, what would be the best way for someone to look at that, and be like, “Okay, here’s how I tweak it or optimize it to get people to actually start watching my videos.” Joe: That’s a great question because I see this all the time. I see people posting their videos up there and they’re getting no views and they just keep posting the same videos. So here’s the thing, think of it like this, think of your YouTube channel, say you have a store, a brick and mortar store, think of your YouTube channel as, that’s your storefront. The videos that you create are your product, and the people that view it and subscribe are your customers, right, they’re raising their hand and saying, “I want that product.” If you’re putting videos out, and no one is watching them or subscribes, or very little people are watching or subscribing, you change up the way you make your videos, there’s something wrong with the way you’re making your videos. Don’t batch out your videos and just throw them out there. You have to see what videos are engaging. So what I would say is, the first thing I would start out is like I said, find your set of keywords, your content bucket. Start putting those videos out, see which videos start getting some traction, and then double down on those keywords. The other thing you want to do is constantly be testing your thumbnails. The two most important thing about your video is going to be your thumbnail and your attention. You get the best video in the world, but if your thumbnail stinks and your title doesn’t have a hook, people aren’t going to click on it. So the thumbnail is, that’s like the visual hook, that’s going to stop people from scrolling and saying, “What’s happening here?” So big faces, little bit of text, your title has your keyword in it, but it also has your hook. And then the video, the first 30 seconds to the minute is the most important part to your video. Because that’s where you want to hook people, and that’s where you want to keep at least 80% retention, and you want at least 50% retention all the way to the end. If you’re not getting that, the best thing to do is after you shoot your video, putting call outs, put in some b-roll, kind of do some pattern interrupts, to keep people visually engaged with your video. Because unlike say a podcast, when people are watching on YouTube, if you’re not visually engaging them, they’re going to look somewhere else. Russell: There’s like a hundred different options for them to click on around the video of like, uh, distraction. Joe: Right. A good example of this is on your channel, you had a video up on sales funnels and you know, you posted it a few years ago, it got a couple of thousand views, we took that same video, just added call outs and b-roll, I think that new video has 150,000 views. Russell: Wow. Joe: And the simple thing is, is even though it’s amazing information, it doesn’t matter who it is, if people aren’t visually stimulated, they’re going to go off. Russell: Yeah, interesting. A couple of things that I learned from you that were crazy is like the thumbnail one, like you said. We used to make these beautifully designed thumbnails, and then the click through rate wasn’t very high and then you made these, no offense, but these ones I’m like, “Ah!” and then it’s like 5x more click throughs. I’m like, ‘Oh, crap.” And it was interesting at Funnel Hacking Live, Prince Ea talked about that, he said when you do a shoot most people do the video and then they try to find a still to make the thing. He’s like, no, you bring professional photographers. That’s the most important part, the thumbnail. He says they’ll spend more time trying to get the thumbnail sometimes, than the entire video as a whole. So I think that’s one big thing. The second thing that I learned from you that was interesting, and we did 100+ episodes of our Funnel Hacker TV show, and I loved it, they were so much fun, but we never got tons of views. I was like, “Why are people not loving this?” and when you started looking at our stats, you’re like, “Well, the reason why is people watch the first little bit, then you have a 30 second cool intro that was amazing. It was the most amazing intro of all time. Any creator would be so proud of this amazing intro. And then it got into the content.” And you showed me like, “Here they are hooked and then the intro starts and then people at the end that make it through that stay gone.” And you went from like, “Take a 30 second intro and make a one and a half second intro.” I was like, “But it’s like, it’s so, on a tv show they have a huge intro and it’s amazing.” And you’re like, “They’re not watching TV, they’re sitting here with YouTube with a thousand things around them, distracting them. You’ve got to be focused and get to the point quick and engage them and keep them hooked.” So yeah, things like that, that I think creators like me are like, ‘Oh, look at my intro, it is so long.” And that’s not the right move. Joe: Yeah, exactly like, the best kind of format is like a 15 second hook, 4 to 5 second branded intro, 10-15 seconds who you are, your content and then a call to action at the end. Russell: So cool. Oh man. Well Joe, I appreciate you coming on man, this was fun, being my first live interview. I’m not the best interviewer, but you were a great guest and shared some super actionable, and important things. And I think what I would recommend, you know we’re funnel hackers here, so we’re good at looking and modeling what people are doing. So go look at our channel, and look at the videos that get a lot of views and ones that don’t get very many. And Joe’s in it always optimizing stuff and figuring things out, but half of this whole game is looking at what’s working and then be like, why is that working? That’s what I’m doing, that’s what you’re doing, we’re always doing that in all aspects. Why is that working, what was the reason? And then trying and testing and making little tweaks and changes. I would love if you shared one last thing, just because I remember the first time there was a plugin in Chrome, I think it was Chrome, that you told me to download, and I downloaded this 3 or 4 years ago, and now every time I go to YouTube I see all the stats and it’s so much fun to see all that stuff, and I think most people don’t even know that there’s stuff, tools like this available, to give you all the analytics and all the detail on the video. I want to talk about any of the tools like that, that you use right now that people can use as well. Joe: Um, yeah. So one of the ones is VidIQ, it’s the one I told you about, which is I love it because I do SEO. So the data in there is amazing. Everyone should get it. They have, the best part about it, you can put your competitors in there, you can see what they’re doing, you can see what videos are trending for them. So that’s a great video. Another one I think is Two Buddy, which is, you know, it’s okay. But My preference is definitely VidIQ, just because it has all that data. Especially if you’re constantly testing and looking at stuff. Russell: It’s great that it’ll show you your competitors videos. Like this video got added x amount of people to subscribe to their channel because of this video. And this is how many views it got. How many it’s getting per day, and all the… You’re just like, “How are they telling me all this stuff? This is amazing.” It shows you all the stuff that, and then you can reverse engineer it from there. As a funnel hacker that’s what we’re looking, how do we reverse engineer things? And this gives you like, it’s basically like, “Here’s what happening with the video.” And from there you can reverse engineer like, “Cool, now I know what I need to do. What do I need to create? How do I make something better? How do I make something that’s going to beat that one out so I get all those views coming to mine instead?” and stuff like that. Joe: Yeah. Russell: Awesome man. Well, thanks Joe. I appreciate you coming and being on the show. Everyone, if you had a good time with Joe, comment down below and say, “Thank you, Joe. We love you.” He’s been such a huge you know, support for me for the last, almost ten years. It’s been almost ten years, hasn’t it? Since we first met? Joe: Yeah, I think so. 2012, I think. Russell: That’s crazy. So a long time, and a huge help for us inside of Clickfunnels, growing our YouTube Channel and helping us get the message out to more people. So grateful for you man, thanks for being on the show. And everyone, please comment down below and tell Joe thank you for spending time with us today. Joe: Alright, thanks guys. Russell: Thanks man. Joe: Thanks Russell. We’ll talk to you later. Russell: Alright, see you man.

Did you watch the Launch event that has over 460k people registered!?! Here was my small contribution. On this special episode you will hear Russell at the Mastermind.com launch talking about what it’s like to be called to serve, and the reasons why maybe you’re scared to take the step to accept your calling. Here are some of the awesome things you will hear in today’s episode: Why being afraid to get started is okay, but you’ve got to do it anyway. Why being a “chapter ahead” is a good way to start. And why accepting not accepting your calling could be a tragedy not only for yourself, but for other people too. So listen here to what Russell had to say at the Mastermind.com launch with Tony Robbins and Dean Graziosi. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I’m whispering right now because I’m actually sitting here at Dean Graziosi’s office. Tony Robbins is in the room next door and we are doing this huge launch for the KBB method at mastermind.com, which is kind of crazy. And I’m going to be up in like 30 minutes from now. So I asked my brother when it’s done to rip whatever I say, to make it a podcast episode. So I have no idea what’s going to happen. I don’t know what I’m going to say, hopefully something good comes out of it. But it’s part of a really fun promotion that we’re doing. Last year we did this launch and it was the biggest launch in the history of the internet and this is year two. So hopefully we do well. But I’m going to be sharing stuff about the knowledge of business and being an expert and just all the cool things. So hopefully you guys enjoy it. When we come back from the theme song, as long as nothing goes really, really bad, my brother will be plugging in my part of the presentation from tonight’s live event. So I hope you love it, and we’ll talk soon. Bye everybody. Dean: Look at this, by magic of video, Russell Brunson. Russell: How’s it going man? Tony: Good to see you. Russell: You too. Good to see you. Dean: Good to have you back. Look at, two years in a row. Russell: I know, thanks for inviting me back I’m so happy to be here. Dean: For those of you who don’t know Russell, Russell’s been a dear friend for, I think we’ve known each other for 12 years, since we were both at a charity event. We met, I think it was over a decade. Russell started a company called Clickfunnels, one of the fastest growing, what would you say, what’s the definition of your company beside a world changer? He made being online and marketing and building webpages, I’m using simple terminology, the easiest on the planet. One of the fastest growing SAAS and development companies that’s not backed by other capital, just by bootstrapping. Built one of the most amazing companies on the planet. Tony: And started with no business background, really. Right? Was a wrestler, a dedicated human being and was just wanted to help people. I mean, that’s really your driving force, it still is. You come across as so humble and yet you’re so skilled. And we met when you came to one of my seminars 12 years ago, as well. So we’ve known each all that time, and I’ve just watched you grow geometrically. And you know, in the online business like anyplace else, there are industries where there are people that are extraordinary and there’s a lot of people that are soso, and some that are crooks. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of crooks. You are so the opposite, you offer it with such integrity and such commitment to add value to other people. And we’re privileged to have you as a dear friend, and thank you for coming on. Russell: Thanks. Wow, that was amazing. I’m excited because, I told Dean this before. I got started in this business watching him on infomercials with a pad of paper taking notes like, “this is amazing.” And then Tony, the first time I heard about Tony, I went on EBay and bought every one of your courses, literally every one of them. And then my wife and I listened in the car driving everywhere. And the first time I had a chance to meet you it was one of the most amazing moments of my life. So I’m just grateful to being sitting in the room with you guys, which is so much fun. Dean: So you were back there watching us, sometimes there’s so much information to share you can complicate it. And I just want, I was hoping you could come in and say, what are the parts where we cut through the chase and show people how they can get started on this path? Russell: For sure. I think for everyone who’s watching, you’re listening to this and there’s a reason why you showed up here today. There’s what, 460,000 people registered. So there’s a reason everybody is hearing the message and they showed up to be here. I think then becomes a time where like, hey, if you like what you’re learning there’s the opportunity to go and take the next step. And people get scared all the time. And I’ve kind of found in my time doing this online, there’s usually three main reasons why people don’t get started. And the first one is they’re scared of the vehicle, like the thing. So for this whole opportunity, it’s all about you taking your knowledge and turning it into these amazing things. And I’m not going to spend too much time on that because I think, I mean right there is the stack of what, 1000 Dean: 1100. Russell: 1100 wins in the last 12 months. You’ve seen this is how I’ve built my companies, Tony’s done it, Dean’s done it, Jenna’s done it. It’s not like it’s a new weird thing. It’s there, it’s happening. I think that for most people they believe that like, okay this is actually a legitimate, it’s a real thing, it’s a way that I can serve and I can change people’s lives. But then the second one, this is what I want to spend the most time in, is people’s internal fear of like, “Okay, I believe that this is really, really good, but I don’t know if I can actually do it.” So I want to spend a little bit of time talking about that. And some of my notes I was writing back here, and I think, I’m a big believer in this, and I’m guessing these guys believe the same thing, but I really do believe that business is a calling. Tony: Yes. Russell: It’s a calling that you’ve been called to serve a group of people. And for any of you guys who are here today, my guess is that you heard that calling and it’s like this tug and this pull. And you know, in the new testament it talks about many are called but few are chosen. It’s like, we get the calling, everyone has a chance, you have these opportunities where you’re called and you feel this pressure pulling you into something and you’re not sure what to do and you’re nervous and you’re scared and all these things happen. And most people just walk away from it. You feel the tug and then like, ugh, there’s too much fear, they’re scared or whatever that is. So again, my guess is you’ve felt that calling and you’ve been called to serve and there’s a group of people that you can literally change their life, which is the most amazing feeling I think most of us can have in this life. I have a close friend, Ryan Moran, he had a quote that he told me the other day that I thought was the coolest thing. He said, “An entrepreneur is someone who takes personal responsibility for a problem that is not their own.” If you think about that, most of the world see there’s a problem, “Ah, that’s not mine. That’s not mine.” They’re running away. Dean: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tony: Yeah. Russell: Whereas entrepreneurs are like, “Huh, I think I can fix that. I think maybe I’m the one who’s supposed to be doing that.” And it’s the opposite of what the rest of the world is doing. So you’ve heard that, you’ve felt that calling and it’s like, maybe that’s me. And I look at these 1100 people and how many, 4000 niches? Dean: Yeah, 4000. 4000 yeah. Tony: There’s more than 1100, those are just the ones we printed out. We ran out of this paper. Russell: It’s amazing. So 4000 niches means 4000 problems out there that are being solved. There’s a person like you who’s hearing that and like, “Maybe, that’s my thing. Maybe I’m the one who’s supposed to….” And you know my first business was teaching people to make potato guns, so I was the guy like, that was my first thing. I don’t know if you remember I sent you… Tony: I do remember, you sent me one. Russell: The first time I met Tony I was like, “How do you impress a guy who’s got everything.” So I sent him a potato gun. Tony: It shoots far though. Russell: So fun. But that’s the thing. That’s like our role, we hear the calling and then we’re the ones who say, “Man, that’s a challenge, that’s an opportunity. I’m going to take personal responsibility. I’m going to be the person who does this. Who helps this.” You know, Dean when he started this business he was like, ‘I’m going to be the one who helps people to bring knowledge out>” When Tony started his it was like, “I’m going to be the person who’s going to take this thing.” And I think that’s the thing. Now, what’s interesting I think for most of us, is the calling when you hear it, when you feel it, that feeling, it’s never at a convenient time. Ever. Tony: And you don’t feel prepared when you go for it either. Russell: Yeah, it’s the scariest thing in the… Dean: You’ve got to work your courage muscle. Russell: It’s the scariest thing in the world. And I was looking through just, as I was listening to everybody, I was thinking about some of the people that I’ve had a chance to be around who have a big impact on me, and I’ve seen have a big impact on different industries and different markets. There are a couple of stories that really spoke to me that I want to share with you guys. One of them is from one of my friends, Chris Wark. Chris runs a site called chrisbeatcancer.com. And Chris is a perfect example. He’s a guy living a normal life, everything is happening, and then he comes down with cancer, which is, I can’t even imagine that. And the fear, and all the things that happen with that. He went through the process and he figured out the ways, and eventually was able to cure himself of cancer. And in this time it’s like, he feels this calling of like, I need to help other people, but man, I just got my life back. There’s so many things I could be doing. But that calling, that feeling of I’ve got to help people, I have to give back, I have to serve. I’ve been given so much in my life, I need to help other people. And I’ve seen it transform now thousands of people’s lives because of this challenge he got, which became such a gift. Tony: His mess became his message. We talked about it right. It’s a mess that became something that can help everybody. It’s beautiful. Russell: Yeah, such a cool thing. Another one is Annie Grace, is one of my favorite people. Annie actually had a problem with alcohol addiction, and she was a business woman, she was traveling all around the world and she got to a point where she was doing these meetings with people and everyone went out, and they had a drink and eventually she woke up one day and realized, “I have a problem and I need to stop this thing.” And she didn’t know how to stop it. And she tried a whole bunch of different things to try to overcome that. And none of the traditional routes of things really worked. So she sat down and said, “I have to figure out how do our minds actually work? What causes addictions? What is the thing that’s making it so I can’t break this addiction? No matter how much I try all the different programs that are out there.” And throughout time she figured out the psychological effects and how to shift and how to break it and how to reverse it. And she’s gone on and written books, she does events, she does courses teaching people how to break the chains of alcohol addiction, which also relates to pretty much any addiction. I’ve watched her, she had this thing that was the worst, and like, you just recovered from this problem you had, and all the sudden you feel this calling of like, you need to help people. Why am I qualified, I have the problem. I’m the least qualified person in the world. Tony: That’s actually what makes you the most qualified. When you solve it. Dean: Yep. Russell: 100% Tony: It’s not intellectual, it’s real results. That’s the difference between traditional education and what this is really all about. Russell: And I’ve had a chance to see now with her, just looking at her community, these people’s lives she changed, families she’s saved. All these things because she’s going out there. I assume everyone’s felt that. I’m sure all you guys listening have felt that call and that pull of just, I need to help. Alex Charfen calls it the contribution gap, like I know I need to be doing more. I don’t know what it is, I’m scared, I’m fearful. But it’s like, being willing to take that step, being the entrepreneur saying, “I’m going to take personal responsibility for that problem. I’m going to take it and make it my own.” So that’s kind of the first step in this process. One question that we got on the questions I was reading through here was, “Who’s going to listen to me? I’m just a person.” And I don’t know, I always kind of laugh, when I go back home tonight, I’m going to back to my family and I’m just a person. But here I am right. But we’re all that way. I think a lot of times we’re scared of, I don’t know if I’m, I’m not qualified yet. Or maybe when I get to this certain point, then I’ll be ready. Then I’ll be ready. And we have this, we call it the manana principle, it’s like, tomorrow, manana, manana I’ll be ready, and keep pushing it off til forever and it never actually happens. And there’s a movie, Catch Me If You Can,  have you guys seen that? Dean: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tony: Yeah, of course. Russell: And there’s also a book and the book version is a little bit longer than the movie. There’s a, it’s a story of a guy who’s a con artist, so it’s not the best role model. Dean: It’s a fun movie. Tony: I’ve met the guy, he’s a real guy. Russell: Oh, did you really? Tony: Yeah, it’s a true story. Russell: Well in the book he tells this story when he actually, between all the different things he did, he was an airline pilot, he was a doctor, he did all these different crazy things. And one thing, he went to Brigham Young University and actually became a sociology professor. He walked in one day, there was no teacher, he grabbed the book and gets up there and teaches an entire semester of advanced sociology. Later when the feds catch him for all the crazy things he’s done, they ask him, “how did you teach a semester of advanced sociology to these people?” and he’s like, “Oh, it was easy, I just got the book and read one chapter ahead.” I think what’s interesting, it’s so true for all of us. We’re thinking, when I’m Tony Robbins, then I’ll go serve the people and I’m going to help people. It’s like, no, you can help people today. You look back, who am I one chapter ahead? Who am I one or two steps ahead of that I can look back and start helping? If I would have waited to share my message about, you know, I teach people how to build companies with sales funnels. If I would have waited until I was ready, I never would have been ready. In fact, talking about this whole concept of if the calling is never convenient, I remember when I started this company it was like I had built up a company, it collapsed, I’d fired 80 people, I was in the brink of bankruptcy. I literally emailed a bankruptcy lawyer, we were talking through all the things and all the sudden I felt the calling. I was like, what? It was like, you need to start talking about this story. I’m like, I don’t want to tell this, this is a horrible story.  I don’t want to tell it. Dean: This is a horrible story. Russell: And for me, I started sharing it. I started a podcast, I started talking about it, I started talking about it, I started talking about it, I started talking about this journey I was going on. And it was painful and it was embarrassing. And at first, it’s kind of interesting because when you first start talking, I think a lot of times we’re nervous because it’s like, people are going to make fun of us. But at the beginning nobody is actually listening to you, so it doesn’t really matter. At the beginning that’s the chance for you to find your voice and learn how to actually do it. So it’s not about how to actually do it. It’s about you learning your voice and how to do the thing, and getting a chapter ahead of the times. And after you get a chapter ahead, you can look back and start helping people. So I’m in the middle of the brink of bankruptcy, and I feel the calling, start publishing, start doing a podcast, doing whatever. I start sharing these messages, and I started to figure out my stuff. And really quick all these people started kind of following me. And like, oh my gosh, Russell’s a couple of steps ahead. And I could look back and start helping them as well. I think that’s the big thing to understand. And then the last thing internal I think that, I don’t want anyone to think this business is always going to be so easy, I’m going to get rich overnight. That’s not what this is. This is a career, this is a lifestyle, this is a mission. This is something to be driven beyond that. And I think a lot of times we’re like, “Okay, I’m going to sign up for KBB tonight, and then next week I’m going to make 50,000 dollars.” That’s not how this works. That’s not the game. The game is you come out here and you’re building a business, you’re building a career, this is a lifestyle. This is something more than any of those other things. And I was reading a blog post the other day from one of my friends, Nathan Barry, and the blogpost was called, Endure Long Enough To Get Noticed. And in this blogpost he talked about, he said, “How many movies or TV shows did you not hear about until season 3 or 4 or 5? Dean: Yeah, yeah. Tony: Well, Seinfeld was a total failure and nobody was going to do it. Ended up being one of the greatest of all time. Dean: Yeah. Russell: Exactly, and I think what happened, there was so much content, so many people, so many things happening, so much noise happening that us as humans, we wait to see what’s going to stick around long enough to actually rise to the top. So for a lot of us it’s understanding that and going into this like, this isn’t going to be an overnight thing. This is something I’m getting into, this is going to be a business, but I’m going to start the process and I’m going to get a chapter ahead, and then a second chapter, and I’m going to be learning this. And as you keep doing that, that’s the process, and if you endure long enough…like if you start today, and then a month from now, 2 months from now, 6 months from now, a year from now. A year from now you’re going to be in that big old stack of paper. And then 2 years from  now you’re going to be up here on stage and you’re going to take Jenna’s seat and you’ll be telling your story. But it’s all about enduring long enough to get noticed. Keep doing the thing, keep doing the thing. So I hope that helps you guys, those who are thinking, “I don’t know if I could do it.” You could ask my friends in high school and my family members and stuff like, that, in fact, I served a mission for my church and we had the guy who’s kind of the lead of the mission, he’s called a mission president. And he came to our last event we did, and he said, “man, of all the people that I worked with 20 years ago, you were the least likely that I would have ever thought would be this person.” And it doesn’t have to do with your skills now, it has to do with you talking and sharing, and the more you do it, the better you’ll get and the more comfortable. So again, the first thing, the first big fear is that people are scared of the vehicle. I don’t know if this is for me. I promise you, this works. It’s worked for so many people. Number two is, can I do it? And the answer is yes, you can do it. And the third fear people have is the external fear of, “Well, I believe that this is right, I believe that I could do it. I just don’t know how to do it.” That’s the whole point. You shouldn’t know how to do it. That’s why we have KBB for you so you can go and figure it out. That’s the best part. Tony: Save yourself years and years. And also what you said earlier is really true. I want to save you, but I always tell people, most people overestimate what they’ll do in a year, and underestimate what they’ll do in a decade. Look at what’s happened to you, and I’ve known you this last decade, the growth has been insane. But you know, I always overestimated, but because I kept doing it, endured, it just grows and grows, and when you got multiple decades on you, you’ll be in a place you never dreamed of. So that may sound too far off for people who want an instant answer. But you do have an instant answer. You have the answer of what to do now, so you start with, like I did, 7 people, then you go to your 20 and your 50 and your 100. And pretty soon you’ve built something that you’re unbelievably proud of because it’s meaningful and it’s impactful, and you’ve been able to take care of your family and have the kind of economical freedom that you want. And you’re a perfect example of that Russell. Russell: Thank you. Tony: Also a perfect example of what integrity is. You have tremendous integrity. You are always looking to add more value, the same as us, I think it’s why you’ve prospered so much, brother. Russell: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Dean: Yeah, and it’s great. I mean, you write books on this. You help people uncover, and you know, Jenna was right, we call it unpackaging your super power, exposing your super power, and it sounds so big, but when you look at people helping parents with eczema, or through a divorce, or the examples you gave here, you realize your mess could be your message. Or just that thing you didn’t realize took you 5years to figure out, there’s somebody starting on day one and they need it. So before, only because I know we’re getting late here, and I want to give everybody the opportunity, but I don’t want to leave without any last words or any last thoughts. Russell: Yes, I have one last, in fact it’s a quote. So I’m going to quote someone much greater than me, if that’s okay, because this one of my favorite quotes of all time, and hopefully this will ring true for you. This is from Sir Winston Churchill. He said, “To each there comes in their lifetime a special moment when they are figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered a chance to do a very special thing unique to them, and fitted to their talents. What a tragedy if that moment finds them unprepared, or unqualified for that which could have been their finest hour.” Dean: Wow. That is… Russell: For everyone listening, again, business is a calling. You have been called to serve a group of people. You have been called to change their lives and you felt that. That’s why you’re here, that’s why you’re still on 2 hours into this thing, because you’re feeling it, and you know this is for you but you’re scared and you’re nervous, and all those things. And it’s okay. You should be scared. Do you think I’m not scared coming out here and hanging with you? I’m shaking in my boots right now. It’s okay. You still gotta show up and just do the thing, because there are people out there that are waiting for you to change their lives and you can’t do it until you take that first step. Because the chance is going to come where you could have changed someone’s life, but if you’re not prepared what a tragedy that would be for you. But more importantly, what an even bigger tragedy it is for them. So take advantage, move forward because you have the ability to change somebody’s life. And the tools you’re going to learn in this process will help you be able to do that. A lot of times we worry about ourselves when we make a decision like this, “How is it going to affect me?” and things like that. And I would challenge you to flip it around the other way. Who are the people I’ve been called to serve? How will me taking a step change their lives? Tony: Or your family. Russell: Yeah, your family, people around you. It’s interesting, when you shift away from “How am I going to make money?” to “How can I serve people?” the money will come, it just does. But that, I can’t tell you. I’ve had a lot of big wins in my life, and it’s like, “it’s really fun.” But when you can have a chance to help someone else have that impact and you see them win, there’s nothing better than that in the world. And you guys will have a chance to experience that. Some of you for the first time in your lives. And you have a chance to do that, and you see somebody else’s light bulb go off, and their life change, you’re like, ‘Oh my gosh, I was a little piece in that journey.“ There is no better feeling than that in the whole world. So I hope you guys can all experience that as you go through this program and change the lives of the people you’ve been called to serve.

Making Your Organization Attractive for Cause Marketing Collaborations Sheryl Green is a writer, speaker, and animal rescuer. She is the author of four books including her most recent, Do Good to Do Better: The Small Business Guide to Growing your Business by Helping Nonprofits. Sheryl also serves as the Director of Communications and Cuddling for Hearts Alive Village Animal Rescue in Las Vegas. There's a way to position yourself so that businesses want to work with you and help you raise money.     Read the Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Happy first of the year! It's 2020 when we're recording this. Russell is in Denver. I'm in central western Virginia, the commonwealth of Virginia. Sheryl is in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. Sheryl, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Tell people a little about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Sheryl Green: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. The why I'm doing it I think is the most important to start with. In 2008, I went through a very difficult divorce and moved out to Las Vegas for a fresh start. Went through horrible divorce, horrible bankruptcy. Did not know anybody here besides my parents. Ended up in a pretty serious depression. At that point, my step-mom dragged me off the bathroom floor, where I was curled up hysterically crying, and she said, “Go do something for someone else.” And it was the best personal advice, and it turned out to be the best business advice that I'd ever gotten. I found my way to animal rescue. I started out doing small adoption events, and eventually I worked my way up to creating 5,000-person events. I put on a festival and started as the director of communications (and cuddling) for Hearts Alive Village Las Vegas. Even though this has been a volunteer role pretty much the entire time, and I've been on the board, but it started to dawn on me just how difficult the nonprofit world is. Anybody that has spent any time in there, you have spent half of your life with your hand out, begging for money and begging for help. It took a while to put that together. I started my own business with speaking and writing and things like that and realized that if a nonprofit could actually connect with a business, and even more importantly in my world, a small nonprofit could connect with a small business, we could make some real differences in our communities. That is what got me on this path. Hugh: Whoa. What a novel concept. I have worked with nonprofit leaders for 32 years. Russell has a whole history in various forms of working in nonprofits. It spans more years than that. I am in the saddle as the president of the Lynchburg Symphony Orchestra. Doing stuff inside of an organization is different. I developed my methodology working inside of organizations. I have been working outside for so many years. It's good to go back inside and see both sides of this. I'm pleased that all the systems we created actually work. There is a funny relationship that organizations have with businesses. Businesses don't understand basically why it's good for business to be active and to support nonprofits. When you first have a conversation, do you start with a nonprofit or a business? Sheryl: It depends on the situation. I was going to say that I start with the nonprofit, but you know what? Now I am starting to work closely with small businesses, showing them, going beyond the obvious “Yes, you should help, and we should change the world together,” going beyond that and showing them the benefits to their business of helping, getting in front of a new audience, attracting those who believe in the same things as you and really branding yourself as someone who cares about more than just money. Hugh: Triple bottom line. Sheryl: Yes. Hugh: People, the planet, and the profit. Sheryl: I like that. Hugh: It is. There is books behind you. Are any of those books created by you? Sheryl: Those books are all by me. I've been writing. I started out with fiction back in 2009. I have a degree in forensic psychology. I never actually got to hunt down serial killers, which is what I wanted to do. Instead, I decided to write about them. Those books have not yet seen the light of day, but they will. I moved into writing nonfiction probably about four years ago now. And started out with a personal development book about my own experiences. Then moved onto how can I help businesses and nonprofits improve their organizations. Hugh: Wow. I'm sure we can find those on Amazon. I will put them on the interview. SherylGreenSpeaks.com is your main website. I believe it's on the page we set up for this interview. A little more. How does the book connect you in the world? Does the book have a functional reason? Is it just you telling your story? Sheryl: That's a longer story. My journey in speaking has been circuitous. I started out not knowing what I was an expert in because in the speaking world, you're not a speaker, you're an expert who speaks. I realized after my divorce and the hard knocks I've taken that I was really good at getting kicked and getting back up stronger and being that resilient, learning how to teach resilience. I started out on that path. It took a little while to realize that wasn't necessarily where my heart was. I moved into realizing I'd been writing content for businesses and nonprofits for a couple of years at that point, and I realized that I'm a storyteller. It started out when I wrote fiction and moved onto when I was actually writing for businesses. I realized I could teach businesses and nonprofits how to communicate what they do and how to share that story so that they can really better serve their clients and donors. One of the stories I wish I could tell you exactly where I came across the term “cause marketing.” I don't remember. I suspect there were angels in a bright light. When I realized that there was actually something in place for nonprofits and businesses to work together, that became one of the stories that I recommend we tell. You've got your why story, which most people talk about their origin. You have success stories, and that you're actually doing what you say you do. The cause marketing story goes beyond that for me. I like to call it selling warm fuzzies instead of widgets because for the business, it becomes less about what they actually do and what they sell and more about who they are and what they stand for. It evolved from there. I started studying cause marketing and learned more about it. I realized it could make a huge impact in how nonprofits and businesses operate and in the cesspool of disaster that our country is in. I'm sorry. That wasn't positive, was it? Hugh: It's realistic. You didn't blame anybody. Sheryl: No, no. It's just a mess. We won't go into that. Hugh: Fascinated by going back to ancient stuff. Going back to the Bible, in Ecclesiastes, he says, “There is nothing new under the sun.” Back when they wrote those books, they are dealing with the same kind of stuff we have right now. It seems like in all these years, we could have progressed civilization. Sheryl: Just a lot less social media back then, so it wasn't as painful. Hugh: People had a way of getting things out. There are several points of connection that come to my mind. One of our guests gave us a different word, for-profit and for-purpose. Nonprofit is a dumb word because you have to make a profit, but it does identify the segment. The business can be a donor to the nonprofit, which is philanthropy. The business can be a sponsor, which is their marketing money. The business can provide in-kind support. It could be printing, volunteers. People in the company might want to be of service. If it's a food bank or a free clinic, they could go down and serve on a regular occasion. We have donors, sponsors, in-kind contributions. Those are very different. And then there's making space available. Sometimes companies have meeting rooms or event spaces and planning and implementing skills. There are those kinds of connections. Are there others? Do you want to talk about those and how they benefit both sides? Sheryl: While I use the term “cause marketing,” I want to give this brief statement that it's not just cause marketing. That term has been pigeonholed for the buy one/get one, the pin-ups in stores, where it's transaction-based. While that is wonderful and definitely one of the approaches that you can take, I think there is a lot more that we can do, from the small business standpoint, in terms of standing for a cause. So that it's not just if you buy this, I will donate, which is great, and you should do it. But there is also spreading awareness, sharing your audience with that nonprofit. Creating awareness around the cause. A lot of people don't even know what issues are out there. I don't know how this is even the case, but I was at a fundraising workshop a few months ago, and she said that some people don't donate because they're not asked. Hugh: That's right. Sheryl: They're clearly not on my Facebook page because I am asking for donations all the time for the rescue. Creating that collaboration, and I will not say partnership, gives you the ability to bring your customers into that world, into that cause, and gives them an easy way to support it. The reason I say that is because there are so many different things. You touched on a bunch of them. The easiest way to look at that is time, talent, and treasure. You can donate some of your time or your employees if there is a specific job that needs to be done, and treasure, your money, your in-kind services. You mentioned real estate, giving space. The large organizations, the large businesses, they know this. They have got this down. A lot of my examples will be from the animal rescue. PetSmart donates space all the time for local rescue groups to come in. It's no skin off their back because they have the space anyway. They are getting more people into the store. They have a higher footprint in there. If you get a dog or cat in PetSmart, chances are you will buy some supplies in there. You won't turn around and go to Petco. Again, they get that benefit, the halo effect of we're just not about making money, we want to find those pets homes. We know that our audience, our customers care about that cause. It's something that the larger businesses have known for years. I think the larger nonprofits have known for years. But when it comes to the small businesses and the small nonprofits, who I think get left out of the conversation because they don't have that staff. It's just a bunch of dedicated people who are giving up their weekends and spare bedroom to work for a cause. Hugh: There's another channel, which I did leave out, which is board members. People in the company can serve as board members. I'm thinking as you talk about cause marketing, it's because marketing. It's because it provides value to humankind. Because it's good for business. Because, because, because. Sheryl: That was almost the title of the book. Hugh: Was it? I want to toss the interview to Russell, who has some thoughtful questions. This is very helpful, Sheryl. Thank you for sharing today. Russell, what are you thinking? Russell Dennis: I'm thinking I love her approach. When you get a good idea, write a book. That way people know about it. It creates accountability for yourself because you publicly went out and said things. Large organizations do have a little bit more bandwidth on the marketing front. You have businesses of all sizes. Some of the larger ones may have in-depth plans. Talk a little bit about ways that small nonprofits can get on the business's radar screen. On the flip side, talk about some ways businesses can identify some of these smaller organizations that are doing work that is In line with their corporate social responsibility programs. Sheryl: I think first, from the nonprofit standpoint, even the small ones, you are building a business. The small ones that survive and eventually grow larger, they understand this. The ones that are just a bunch of gung-ho people who have huge hearts and really want to change the world, they're wonderful and amazing, but they're going to burn out. If you don't look at it as a business and creating a sustainable organization, you will fall flat. One of the biggest things that I've seen—of course there is the whole debate on overhead—a nonprofit that turns around and waves a flag proudly, saying, “We don't pay anybody. Everything goes into our programs 100%,” it's fantastic for the first three to six months. After that, it's not sustainable. Thinking about it as a business is that first step. The second one is building that brand. Realizing just like a business, you need to be raising awareness constantly. You need to be building your social media footprint and your email list and making yourself attractive so that somebody would want to come and say, “Yeah, I want to work with you. You have 10,000 followers. You have an email list of a couple thousand people I would love to get in front of.” From the nonprofit standpoint, it's being able to communicate what you do very clearly. What is the benefit you bring to the marketplace? Even though it's for purpose, you're still in a marketplace. Communicating that and raising that awareness constantly. For lack of a better term, keeping your nose clean. Keeping that reputation up. News travels fast. It really does. There are great quotes out there, none of which are coming to mind right now. A reputation can be destroyed in one Facebook post, one conversation, one argument that you have, or one bad-mouthing of another organization. Making yourself attractive is about you have to look good before you can attract someone. That sounds so bad. Building up your group, your brand. Being easy to work with. I talked about this in my book. We had an e-cig company that reached out to us and wanted to do some fundraising for us. I asked her what she needed. How can we help? Logos, promotion. What can we do? She said, “No, you're fine. We'll tell you when we have the check.” They brought the comically large check, and we did the photos and everything. She thanked me for being easy to work with. And it blew my mind because they want to give you money. Why are you making it difficult? If it's a good match, do what you can, and I understand. We're understaffed. Some are not staffed at all. Find that person who is willing to be that point of contact. Sometimes they don't want to do what the rescue or the organization does. I don't go into the shelters. I don't pull animals out. I can't do it. It hurts my heart. But I can do this. Find those people. Find the people who want to be the go-between, the media, the connection. Did that help? Russell: When you're talking about getting people involved, I love time, talent, and treasure, that's what I talk about, it's hard to confuse it. People who give you one will generally give you the others if you ask. It's astounding how many people don't ask. There is something about asking, which speaks to a concept of value, I think. Value is a word that gets a different angle placed upon it by a business. What you're doing when you're trying to create or grow something, you're actually providing value. When it comes to looking at a nonprofit, and you talked a little about overhead, people don't think of the value of those types of things when it comes to a nonprofit. Businesses are rewarded by higher-end marketing geniuses coming up with campaigns and investing in making their people better so they can provide better service. There is some sort of resistance when it comes to charity work to the idea of having a nonprofit invest in these things. How do you flip that conversation around in the minds of people who write a check? As far as having the infrastructure to actually deliver value. Sheryl: The first thing that I do, I'm a huge fan of Dan Pallotta. His TED Talks should be mandatory watching material for every human being. In my book, and I took a smart-ass approach to it because that's how I am, I invited business owners, and I did about three pages on this. I said, “Hey, I have this great opportunity for you. I would love for you to come work seven days a week, ten hours a day, and I'm not going to pay you. I want you to bring all of your employees with you. We're not going to have a roof over our head. It will be cold while we're working. But it will be okay because you will have that inner feeling that you're changing the world. Don't worry when your bills come, when your mortgage arrives in the mail. You just write, ‘I'm changing the world' on it, and they will zero out your balance.” I went for about three pages. One of my beta readers stopped in the middle and didn't like it. She got to the end and was like, “Nope, you needed every single bit of this.” It was about changing the mindset from both the business's point of view and the nonprofit point of view. My founder actually waited to file the paperwork for the nonprofit because she didn't want to spend that money on paperwork and business when she could be saving a life with it. We all have that attitude going in. You have to realize that it's not self-sustaining. You're not going to get far ahead. As Dan Pallotta talks about putting a marketing flyer on the laundromat wall for a bake sale, and you bring in $200, and everyone is doing a Snoopy dance, but when you actually put money into this intelligently and properly and not just throwing money around like many businesses probably do, but you actually invest in improving and in growing and in spreading that awareness. I think it's just a mindset shift that businesses need to make, but nonprofits need to make first so they can help them. Russell: It definitely is when you start talking about value. If you get someone who is working for a human services agency, they can talk a great deal about how they sit in front of people and how it's important to move people from where they are to a better place, which is what an organization is set up for. When it comes to talking about value, that is something I think that nonprofit leaders need to have- That's the other mind shift. They have to be able to talk about that and couch that in terms that are valuable to their supporters. It's about finding out the right language to use. There is a process for each of them to get connected with one another. It's a little different. Talk a little bit about the process the business goes to find a good project. Same thing for the nonprofit, and where you see the most common disconnects for each one of them when trying to get connected to the right people. Sheryl: I want to speak about value for a second. Then I will jump to that. There is that value that you need to communicate to the community, what we do for the community. There is also the value you inherently have as an organization to communicate to the business. We have these people following us. We have this space. When it comes to finding that partner, the best thing I have seen is once you've identified what you care about, there is a couple different ways that businesses can go about this. This is what I care about as the founder or CEO because I have this history with it. There is let me find out what my employees care about. There is also what makes sense for my business, my industry. If you are a restaurant, you might want to work with a food bank. If you're a home builder, you might want to work with someone who provides housing for less fortunate people. There is always that match-up. That can go horribly wrong. Choose wisely. But then when it comes to choosing the actual nonprofit, this is why reputation is so important. There are people who will go out there and look at IRS records. You can spend half your life reviewing different nonprofits and seeing what their score is. Or you can just put it out to your people and say, “Hey, we are going to be supporting a nonprofit. Which ones do you like?” I think that's honestly for me the best way to 1) spread the word early that you will be supporting a nonprofit, even before you start, so it gets the word out and gets people excited about it. 2) It gets people involved. They now have a say in what you're going to do. You're way more likely to go along with something if you have a say in it. 3) Learning that reputation. Who is actually good out there? Who is doing what they say? Who is messing around and not going to be around for very long? I think that's the best way for a business to look. What was the other part of that question actually? Russell: How should that nonprofit look? What is the disconnect? What is the most common thing they overlook in their efforts to identify the best partners in the business world to work with? Sheryl: From the nonprofit standpoint, your reputation as we've said is important before. Your reputation is important after. Collaborating with a business that has some shady practices, maybe they're in an industry you don't want to be associated with. We get so excited. We need the money. We need the funding. You will give us some money! Thank goodness. We don't care who it comes from. But when you do create that collaboration, when you do work with a business, you are taking on their garbage. Let's put that nicely. Really realizing what are those values that you want to continue upholding as an organization? What businesses fit those values, fit the industry, make sense, because the halo effect, that business is going to get something from you. You want to make sure that what you get from them isn't just money and then damages your reputation. Russell: One of the toughest sentences for a business or nonprofit to digest is “No.” That word is a full sentence. I don't think a lot of people wrap their mind around that. There are times when that is the appropriate response. When you're talking to either a business or a nonprofit, and that word comes up when you get that match, somebody says, “No,” how do you help people look at that? How do you help them have the proper perspective on that in these situations? Sometimes people shut down when they hear that word. Sheryl: You have to think about it like dating. Everybody that you go out with is not the right person for you. That's okay. It doesn't speak badly about you. Most of the time, it doesn't speak badly about them. It's just not a good fit. In the nonprofit world, we are so passionate about what we do, and we care so deeply about our cause that many of us will do it for free. However, not everybody cares about your cause. It's hard to hear, but when I was just hitting the street asking for small donations from businesses, I started out my conversations after a while with, “Hey, are you an animal lover?” I'm not going to waste the next 10 minutes and my breath in the whole spiel of why we're amazing and saving animals if you don't care. Figuring out is that their cause, is that something that matters to them. If not, it's going to be okay. You have to pick yourself up and move onto the next one. Same with the business aspect. Realizing that nonprofits are not just crawling around begging. They are building their own brand and reputation. Depending on what you do, it might be an industry they're not wanting to connect with. Or it could be something you're doing. It could even be what you're offering. That's one of the most difficult things that we run into from the nonprofit side is businesses approach us and say, “We want to give you this.” That is awesome, but we don't need that. They want to bring 60 people down to have a wonderful volunteer event. That's amazing, thank you. We literally with fire code can't have 60 people in there. So it comes down to is it a good fit culture-wise, values-wise, but is it also a good fit? Do they want what you have? Do they need what you're offering? If not, it's nothing against you. It's not just a good fit. It's all in the mindset of can you accept that and move to the next organization? If not, you have to fix things on your end. Hugh: You're singing the song that Russell sings. He has this point of clarity that we never really find out by listening what people are interested in and what their passion is, whether it's board members or donors or corporate collaborations. I'm wondering, talk about the responsibilities on both sides. We get a sponsor. Great, boom. There is some responsibility because that is marketing money. We have to be careful when we make a pitch in nonprofits. The call to action has to go to a home page. There are some requirements there. A good example I refer to a lot is Viking Cruises on public television, Sunday nights with Masterpiece Theatre. They show a sizzle for more information. That is a clear demonstration of how sponsorship works for both sides. Sheryl: This was something I learned on the journey of writing the book. I had no idea. I was as guilty as organizations putting out, “Hey, go buy this because we will get something out of it.” It's actually funny. I was reading Cause Marketing for Dummies. They mentioned an attorney in Las Vegas who specialized in cause marketing. One of my best friends is an attorney. After I got over the why would you need an attorney fantasy world, I reached out and actually was connected with him within a week. We sat down, and he told me all about this responsibility, which I don't think small nonprofits understand. You cannot act as an advertiser for these businesses unless you want to kick off an UBIT (Unrelated Business Income Task). I'm not an attorney. I'm not a tax accountant. By all means, please find someone who knows more than I do. But it is realizing that you can't be that advertising firm for a business no matter what they're doing for you. I like how you put that, you can't have the call to action. Hugh: When you do a call to action, it kicks in that dynamic. Russell knows more about it from the IRS. There are complete guidelines. You do present the brand, and they resonate. Viking Cruises is a great example. They are in the hour where when the people who can go on cruises are on TV. They show the boats and the great stuff, people having fun. There is some clear guidelines there. It shows that this business is supporting really high-quality entertainment on television and this nonprofit. To me, there is a win-win. Just as we're talking, I thought of a fifth connection. There is what is called earned income, like an Amazon Smile account, or a grocery store that gives 5% to charities when you shop. Most companies have a residual, where they take money and make a donation to the charity. There is ways you can register. That is generated income. All of these have very strict rules around them. There are lots of reasons to have conversations in business. Why don't charities have a conversation with business about any of these topics? Sheryl: Honestly, I think it comes down to the perceived value of the nonprofit and their own perceived value, not thinking they have anything to offer. I go through all the different ways to do an inventory on your business and your nonprofit to see what you have to give, all of the things you mentioned and more. When you realize that value, you're more likely to approach, to say, “Hey, we would like to work with a business. We know we can offer them” the brand, the audience, and even just saying, this is where those rules kick in, just saying, “Hey, thank you for the support to XYZ business. Check out their website and see how they're helping us.” Putting that out there. Great, you gave us money, and moving on with your day. When you talk about responsibility of the nonprofit, I believe that one of the biggest responsibilities the nonprofit has is to educate the business. When you see these pin-up campaigns, the point of sale at a register, you go in, and if it's active, the cashier is actually saying something to you, it's like, “Would you like to support childhood cancer?” They're dead. They've said it 4,000 times that day. They have no idea what the organization does. Instead of saying, “Oh, cool, you want to raise money for us? Great, go ahead. There is information on our website,” if you could take the time to, if you have a facility, give a tour. If you do not have a facility, talk to the employees and explain what it is you do, why it's so important to the community you serve, and what their donation does so that they can have the conversation with a customer if they ask. But they can be excited about it. It's not just Day of the Walking Dead there with zombies spouting out that same line time and time again. There is passion behind it. “You know what? If you do this, we get to help kids with cancer!” How cool is that? They have that fire in them. Turning it into not a partnership, but the attorney made it very clear that he can't call it a partnership, or he pops out from somewhere and yells at you. When you collaborate with someone, you make it that true collaboration. Here's what we do. Here's how you get involved. Here's why you're important. Hugh: It's a win-win situation. Russell It is important. It is valuable to have that common language. The point of overwhelm for both sides is, Ok, we have to come up with this type of thing. We want to save X dollars on taxes. We want to raise X dollars. Then it's throwing something against the wall to see what sticks. How important is it for them to be focused? What kind of steps can they take to identify organizations that are a better fit so that when they start prospecting, they are actually in a better position to get a Yes because they've done a little bit of homework? Sheryl: I think one is identifying exactly what you need. If it's $6 million, you're either going to go to a lot of small businesses or shoot for a larger organization. If it is maybe just some donations that you need or some help, you need an accountant to come in, really identifying what it is you need before you approach anyone else. That's a huge part. Respecting their guidelines. I learned this unfortunately very early. Some of the larger casinos and corporations don't see the value in animals. They do wonderful things in the community, but they are strictly focused on human services and things that affect humans directly, like food, home issues. When I walked in there all excited to explain how animals are the best thing ever and rescuing them is amazing and how that impacts humans—anyone who has had an animal understands that—but it's not within their guidelines. So if it is a larger organization, realizing that they might just not be focused on you. Beyond that, if they do have guidelines, checking those out. Also finding out where they have donated in the past. What do they care about? Where do they put their money? What do they expect in return? Is this a true collaboration where they are expecting marketing help? I almost want to back out of that statement. What are they expecting out of this pairing? That's important. One of the other things, and this is why I focused on small businesses and small nonprofits with the book, is if you are a small nonprofit and you reach out to the largest business, the huge corporations, you're not even on their radar. Unfortunately, they want to work with the large nonprofit. We see that even at the local level where they are the biggest nonprofit in town. They are who the businesses want to work with. Go with the small guys. If you're a small guy, it's okay to work with a small guy. It means more to both of you. I did one interview where she just kept saying, “If you want to go to the big corporation, who do you contact?” I was like, “You don't want to do this.” Start out with a small business. Start out at the grassroots community level. You will get more attention, more help, and more funding for your time invested. Russell: It is. What are some things that a small nonprofit needs to look out for? On the flip side, what are some things that a business needs to look out for when they are considering doing these types of collaborations? Sheryl: Once you have done all of your homework, once you have researched their reputation in the community—and I can't say that enough just how important it is to know who you're dealing with and whether they are an amazing organization, nonprofit and for-profit organization, do other people see them that way? Unfortunately, it comes down to you can be the best organization on the planet, but if someone decided you weren't and smeared your name, do you want to add that danger to the situation? Once you've done your homework and watched out for all those earning signs, trust your gut. It sounds trite to really rely on your emotions here. I know everybody is so numbers-focused. When you are getting into a situation, either as an individual or as an organization that you are not supposed to be getting into, when you look back on it six months, a year, six years later, you can go, “That didn't feel right. The hair on the back of my neck was standing up.” You go that icky gut feeling, that feels professional. Look for the icky gut feeling. Pay attention. I think, and I've gotten into some situations like this in my business. When I look back and think about that first meeting and those first conversations, “That wasn't good from day one.” You ignored it because you were excited about money coming your way. Do your homework, and trust your gut. Hugh: We tend to forget, especially in the nonprofit side, the touchpoints that are so important, not only with sponsorships, but donors. You want to update them with messages telling them what is happening. Like you talked about earlier, we are going around with our hand out all about the money. Well, it's not. It's about the impact of the results of our work. Everybody shares in that. Putting together a win-win, but also having somebody in the organization who is dedicated to that messaging, any of those types of connections. You want to stay in touch. Sheryl: I think that it's something that a lot of organizations struggle with. Having somebody handle that, but also remembering. Saying “Thank you” is easy. Being grateful is very easy. Looking at this is how many lives were saved, these many children got shoes, and these many homeless people were fed or served. Whatever that may be, whatever that impact is, it's not just the appreciation that keeps donors and businesses coming back to help over and over again. It's knowing that they've actually made an impact. That's a great point. I don't even know if I addressed that in the book. It's going in the second edition, courtesy of you. Hugh: Also, you want to continue to focus on the value, and you want to keep that thread going. I was touched that you said that. It seems natural. We're winding down this thoughtful interview. You mentioned Dan Pallotta. He has some good paradigm shifts. We tend to dumb down. His TED Talk is “The Way We Think About Charity is Dead Wrong.” *Sponsor message from SynerVision's online community for community builders* Sheryl, what is your final thought? Is there a particular challenge or tip or thought that you would like to leave people with? Russell will close out this helpful interview. Sheryl: Final thought. I think that working together, there is nothing that we can't do. Without getting into any government stuff, there are a lot of problems out there that the government is not fixing. It's up to the nonprofits and the for-profits to get together and find a way to make this world a better place. It might sound cheesy to put it that way, but we all have that responsibility. When we lean on each other and work together to make it better for everybody, that's better for everybody. Oh, and spay and neuter your pets. Russell: I think Skittles will enjoy this interview. It is important. Thank you so much, Sheryl, for coming and sharing your wisdom with us. Do Good to Do Better: A Small Business Guide to Growing Your Business by Helping Nonprofits.This book will go on our list. 2020, we are going to have lists of books that nonprofit leaders should read that we will be highlighting. This book is one of them. There are other books. Another one is Asking Rights by Tom Ralser. These are books that can help get that conversation going so that we can collaborate to do more good in the community. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this special 4 part series Russell shares 2 interviews from the On The Brighter Side podcast that he and his wife, Collette did with Monica Tanner. Here is what you will hear during the second part of Russell’s interview: Why it’s okay to be afraid and to just move forward until you find your voice. Who Russell thinks is the coolest most influential person he’s met as an entrepreneur. And why Russell credits Collette with keeping him humble and grounded. So listen here to the informative second part or Russell’s interview with Monica in this 4 part series. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, its Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed the first part of our series yesterday, which was the first half of my interview with Monica Tanner on From the Brighter Side interview. So today we’re basically going to queue up the second half and then tomorrow, not tomorrow, but  the next episode you’ll have a chance to listen to my better half, and have Collette tell her side of the story, so I’m excited for that. So with that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song, and let you listen to the exciting conclusion of my interview with Monica Tanner. Monica: So I’m sure several of my listeners would love to do something amazing like, I try to talk a lot about finding your life’s purpose, and I know that so many of my listeners out there are like, “I want to do it.” Maybe even they’ve found their purpose but they’re so afraid that it will require doing something uncomfortable, or really far out of their comfort zone. So what advice do you have for them to just kind of put that aside and be like, “this is my mission, this is what I have to do, even if I’m deathly afraid.”? Russell: The good news is we’re all afraid, and you’re all going to be afraid at first. So this is my big thing I believe. So I think for everybody when you’re trying to find your life mission and your purpose, whatever it is, a lot of times even if we haven’t achieved it yet we know this is where I’m going. And we have this goal, I always picture there’s a mountain and on top of the mountain there’s this result we want to get, that’s where I’m going. So I’m going this direction to try and go up there right. But most of us aren’t there yet. And the biggest fear I see with people that are trying to actually change the world, is they’re always like, “Okay, when I get there, then I’ll be able to do stuff.” The problem is you’ll never get. It’s like the horizon line right, the closer you get to the horizon the further it’s away. You never actually get to the end. So I think the biggest thing is just starting. Starting. And that’s the scaring thing because we’re like, we’re not ready to start. One of my friends Gary Vaynerchuk, he said something that was really profound one time. He said, “A lot of people will go out there and try to create content to do whatever they’re trying to do. Don’t create content, figure out where you’re going and then document the journey.” I was like, oh my gosh. It blew my mind for a couple of reasons. One of them is after my whole business collapsed and crashed, and I was like, the worst possible time for me to start telling my story is when I started my podcast. I remember I was so, part of me was like, “Why am I doing this? I’m a failure at business, why am I starting a business podcast? I’m the worst person.” But I was like, “I’m going to start it now because I think, even though I failed I know some things that other people haven’t, so I maybe I can start sharing some stuff that someday someone is going to start helping with.” So I created a podcast, similar to what I told you do, which you’re doing, which is so cool. Monica: I was totally going to point that out, I was going to say, you sat on my couch and you said, “Just do it.” And I’m like, “But I don’t know what to talk about.” And you’re like, “It doesn’t matter, just start talking, you’ll find your voice.” And I was like, “Okay, I’m going to do it.” And we’re on episode 16. Russell: It’s amazing, you’re doing it. It’s crazy because for me, I knew that I wouldn’t, I didn’t have a microphone or anything when I got started so I would just grab my phone and I would just record it while I was driving. So my first podcast was called Marketing In Your Car, and it was literally me driving to the office. Because we’d gone from a 20,000 square foot office to this 2000 square foot one, and I had a 4 minute commute. So I was like, “For 4 minutes a day I’m just going to talk about what I’m praying will work today because everything hasn’t been working.” So I’d do that every single day, well, I’d do it probably 3 times a week, and I would publish it. And luckily, I didn’t know at the time how to check podcast stats, so I had no idea if anyone was listening. And I found out later nobody was for a long time, for a couple of years. But I was doing it 3 times a week, it’s been about 5 years now since I first launched the podcast. Now we get tons of downloads, but for a long time we didn’t get any. But it was me documenting this journey. And what’s cool about it now, now people find out about me and they’re like, “Oh Russell built this huge company called Clickfunnels…” and they hear like the big result we’ve done, but what’s crazy is people don’t connect with me like, “Oh Russell’s built this huge company.” It’s almost hard to connect with people when you’ve actually gotten the result. But I always tell people, “Go start my podcast, go start episode number one. This is like, we barely didn’t, we almost went through bankruptcy, we didn’t, and then I’ve documented the last 5 ½ years, how we got here. So start listening there and you’ll hear everything I learned along the way and the frustrations and the whole journey. You guys can come on this thing with me.” And what people tell me is they log in and they start the first one, and they say, “Yeah, I went and I binged and listened to 5 years of your life.” And it’s funny because they’ll come and tell me stories, I’m like, ‘Oh I forgot about that, 5 years ago.” But they binge listen to everything and all the sudden, now they’re connected to me and now they care about the result because they’ve heard about the downs, and so now they care about the ups. When people only hear about the ups, they don’t care about you and what you’re doing. So for everyone I would say, if you’re listening right now, you need to start documenting your journey, and there’s different ways to do it. I always ask people, whoever’s listening, how many of you guys who are listening consider yourself a writer, like you like to write stuff? If you’re a writer you should start a blog. You should be blogging 2 or 3 times a week just telling your journey, you moving towards some result you’re trying to get. If you like talking, then you should do a podcast, like this, interviewing people or telling your own story or both. And document your journey that way. And the third, if you like video, which is my platform I have the most now days, turn on the video camera and video tape yourself, or do a facebook live, or instagram. Just talk and by you documenting the journey of you trying to get the result, that’s how you find your voice. People will start coming to you when you start putting it out there. Because at first they don’t, at first it’s small but if you keep doing it, eventually you get better and better. In fact, I had one of my buddies who went and binge listened to the whole podcast and he was like, “Yeah, your first like 43-44 episodes were really bad. At about 45ish, it started clicking, and now you’re awesome. You found your voice, you figured out your stories.” But it took my 45 episodes to get there. What if I would have stopped after like 16 or 20. I never would have got here and all the people I’m able to impact now never would have heard the message. So for all you guys, just do it, even though no one’s…In fact, I think a lot of times we get nervous because no one’s even going to hear it. But that should be comforting because at first you’re probably not going to be very good, so that’s okay. Do it now and when no one’s listening, as you’re learning it, it’s not about them reading or hearing your thing at first, it’s about you finding your voice. And after you’ve found your voice, the people will come, they always do. Monica: Yeah, that’s funny because I listened to all the course by like John Lee Dumas, all the one’s you tell me to listen to. And they all say you have like 15  to 20 episodes where they’ll kind of give you the leeway, and I’m like, “Oh I’m getting so close to that little threshold.” I hope I have it figured out, at least I’m pressing record. I’m definitely getting better. Russell: You’re learning how it works. That’s awesome. Monica: So in all of your travels, who is the coolest or most influential person you’ve ever met. Russell: I’d definitely have to say for both coolest and influential would be Tony Robbins.  Tony is just like, Tony, he’s not a member of our church, he’s not, but I have felt the spirit more with Tony than probably anybody else, which from a spiritual side is amazing, but I also look at him and he’s someone who works with people from all around the world. You see him working with the Dali Lama all the way down to people who are suicidal. You see this contrast, and he’s someone who you see him in public it’s hard to know because onstage, there’s no one with better stage presence than Tony in the world. He’s just amazing. Then you see him in intimate spots, where he wouldn’t have, he could be super incongruent because nobody else is around, and he’s still this super congruent person who is just obsessed with helping other people. And to see someone who’s done that at such a high scale and helped so many people. We were at one of his events, this big event he does twice a year, and he asked the audience, “Who here is suicidal.” And there’s probably 40- 50 people who raised their hands, and he sat there for, I don’t know, probably 20 something hours going person by person, fixing them and reprogramming their brain. And you watch it over and over and over again. And that’s for suicide. The next day is like relationships and things and things. And it’s just amazing to see someone like that who cares so much and who has built such a huge platform that they can actually have, there’s amazing people everywhere, but someone who’s built a platform and can do it at that wide of a scale and still be a good human being, is rare. So he’s amazing. Monica: That’s so cool. And who of all the entrepreneurs that you’ve ever worked with, who’s been your favorite or most memorable? Russell: Oh man… Monica: That’s probably a tough question, it’s like, “Who’s your favorite kid?” Russell: I know. I’m obsessed with entrepreneurs, they are so amazing. I would say the one that would be top of mind right now just because I’ve seen them, they made a lot of money, insane amounts of money, but for them it’s not about money, they’re so big on impact. So it’s a young couple Brandon and Kailin Poulin. I think they’re 24 or 25 years old right now, and three years ago they came into our world, and they’d been in a marketing opportunity that kind of collapsed on them, so they came in completely broke, and I remember they sent me a video the very first day they found out about us, and it was like, “Hey Russell, we’re Brandon and Kailin, and we’re going to be your biggest success story ever.” And I get those sometimes. It’s like, “Oh good luck.” And that’s all I heard and then, it’s funny now that I know them I heard this story afterwards, they were completely broke, no money, newlywed couple. So they went, and we were selling this course that was $1000, I think their bank account at the time was like, there was no money, they had to use a credit line, that was all they had. They went and they watched this webinar that I did and Kailin was like, “You gotta buy this.” And Brandon was like, “I don’t dare to.” So  he was supposed to go buy it and he wimped out and instead just bought this lower thing we sold for like $100. And she found out and got so mad, she went in and she went and bought it. So it ended up costing them $1100, instead of $100. But they were like, “We have to make this work. Our entire life depends on this.” So they went and opened up the course, pushed play and they watched it and they paused it and whatever I said they just, “Okay we’re just going to do this exactly like Russell.” She actually coined the hastag, #dowhatrussellsays. At all our events it’s like, “#dowhatrussellsays”. But she’s like, “Everything he says, we’re just going to do it perfectly.” And I’ve never met somebody that just executed better than them. They watched it, paused it. Do it, come back and do it. And they went and did an entire course that way. And on the back end they launched this company called Lady Boss Weight Loss, which I’m sure some of your listeners have probably  heard of. It’s blown up into, they’ve helped over 100,000 women in the last 3 years successfully lose weight. They built a culture, they built a brand. They’re launching supplements now. At our last event they got a big award for making over $10 million dollars in a funnel. But the most amazing thing is just like the impact. I see, because I’m like the only man in their, it’s a weight loss program for women, so I’m like the only man in their groups just kind of watching, because I want people to know. I’m watching what’s happening, and I’m looking at these transformations and how many people’s lives they’re effecting and they’re changing, it’s just, nothing gets me more excited than seeing what an entrepreneur can do. Monica: I’m so looking them up right after this. I’ve actually heard you speak about them, and I’m going to look them up right after. Russell: They are amazing. Monica: So for those of us who are just at the beginning of our entrepreneurial journey, what is the most important piece of advice you would offer us? What’s one thing? Russell: I think the most important thing, the thing that most entrepreneurs do that’s wrong, is they get obsessed with a product, like, ‘I created this product. I have this thing.” Or they get obsessed with the product and when you get obsessed with the product, it’s hard to have success and it’s hard to have impact. What I recommend everyone do is you get obsessed with the person. A business is not about selling a product. A business is about giving somebody a result. So I always think about, in fact, if you read the Dotcom, the first book I wrote I talk about how after we went bankrupt and we were trying to rebuild our business. I had this chance to figure out who was my dream customer. If I could pick one person where it’s like, if I could hang out with them every day and help them become better who would that be? And I spent a lot of time, like insane amounts of time thinking about that question. In fact, I went to Google and typed in, “I want people who are successful, people who used to be athletes, people who…” and I made a whole list of stuff and I went to Google images, I typed all those things in and then I typed in man, and it shows all these faces of people, and there was this guy, and I don’t know who, I have no idea who it actually is, but I saw his face and I was like, “That’s my dream customer.” And I took that Google image, printed it out and I framed it on my desk, like, “This is the man I want to serve.” And I went and typed in a woman’s name and I typed in, I think it was Julie, and she’s successful and she’s got a couple of kids, and I kind of explained my dream person, and I went to Google images and typed it all in and saw this person and I was like, “That’s Julie. I don’t know what her real name is in real life, but that’s Julie.” I printed her out and I had her on the desk and I would just look at them every day and I was like, “Okay that’s who I want to serve. I want to serve Mike and Julie.” And then I started thinking, this is Mike and Julie, and because I wrote up this list of who they were and everything, I was like, what do they actually care about? What do they want? And that’s the question I started asking myself, and I was like, “What can I create? How can I actually serve them? What would I, if I really care about their success, what would I do? What would I create? What would it look like?” and it shifted my mind from creating products to how do I serve those guys? And then from that, then the product ideas started coming out and they just…and it’s crazy, the very first product we created afterwards, it attracted the Mike’s and the Julie’s. It was perfect bait. It got those people in, because we crafted it to try and serve them. And what’s crazy is we did that, we ran that product for a while and then at the backend of it we did an event, we had about 100 people or so came to Boise for that event. It was crazy, it was 30% women, 70% men. And I told them initially, I said, “I’m going to tell you something cool I learned. I wanted to get the right people in, how many of you guys, for the men in the room, how many of these characteristics tell you? You used to be an athlete, you’ve had success in the past, you want to impact more…” and I listed through the things, and 100% of the hands when up.  And I showed the picture of Mike and I was like, “You guys are all Mikes.” Then I said, “How many of the women here are this…” and every one of the women are like, and afterwards a lot of women came to me like, “I’m your Julie.” I’m like, “I know because we crafted it from that point forward. So I think for every entrepreneur it’s becoming hyper focused on customer, customer avatar, whatever you want to call it. You want to become obsessed with it. You could wake up every morning and know that if I’m serving that person, it’s going to be the best time in the world, that’s where you start. And then products, everything else will come after that, it’s figuring out the person that you would just go crazy being able to serve, and then starting there, and everything amazing will grow on the back of that. Monica: Great, I have my avatar list, so I’m working on it. Russell: Cool. Monica: That’s what I’m working on. Okay, I’m going to get a little personal with you. You have 5 amazing kids, and you’re an incredible dad, in fact, my very favorite thing is I drive your daughter in car pool, so I love when I drop her off and sometimes it’s late at night, and you’re just in the doorway, and carrying Norah, and I just think, oh my goodness. There he is, he’s just being the dad. You know, he’s done working for the day, and his most important priority is his kids. I love that about you. You’re definitely a family man. But if there’s one thing you want your kids to learn from you or know that you stand for, what is that one thing? Russell: Man, that’s interesting. Before I answer that, it’s been on my mind a lot. Ever since I started working with Chris from Chrisbeatscancer.com I always think, if I was to get cancer what would be the very first thing I would do. Every time I think about it, the first thing I would do is I’d grab my kids, grab a video camera and try and record what I would tell them right now, so that when I die they could watch it later and be like, “Oh, this is what my dad told me. This is the advice my dad gave me.” And I had someone actually 2 days ago at an event I was at that talked about that. And I was like, why should I wait until I have cancer? That’s on my list this week of things to do is to go with each kid and sit down and actually record my advice to them, and I want to try and do that once a year and just have it archived so that someday they could just have it. It would be super cool to have. Monica: That’s a great idea. Let’s start tonight. Russell: Tonight’s the night kids, listen in. and it’s tough because I think about that and I like, there’s different aspects. There’s the spiritual, what would I give them spiritually? What would I give them socially? What would I give them financially? What would be the advice? But I think the thing that’s helped me have the most success in all aspects of life, is I have been a really big, and this is something I learned initially from Tony Robbins, which probably one of the reasons why I like him so much, is finding people who are the epitome of what you want to become, and then modeling them as close as you can. And that fits in everything. If you’re spiritual, who are the people spiritually that you look at like, man I want to be like that person. And then model them as close as you can. Figure out what they do, how they do it. I’m so obsessed with this. I interview people all the time that are like, “What’s your morning routine? What do you do first thing in the morning? What’s the second thing you do in the morning? What do you…” Because I want to know what they’re doing to get that outcome, right. Everything is, people don’t just wake up one day amazing. There’s a bunch of things they do that get them to be that way. So I think that’d be a big part, even so much so that if it was from a financial or business section I’d be like, “Find that person that you want to be like, and go and move in with them, work with them for free, whatever you need to do to figure that person out, because everything I’ve been successful in life came from that.” Find somebody who’s amazing and just following them and believing them 100%, putting all my eggs in that basket, and whatever I can, I think that’d be the biggest thing. Monica: Finding good role models. Russell: Good role models, and then modeling them. Like obsessively modeling. Not just like, oh this person is awesome, I like that person. No, obsess. Get into their mindset, if they’ve written books, read all the books, listen to their podcast, get into their mind. Why do they think that way? Because if you figure out why they think that way, it’s going to help you to figure out how you should be thinking, right. Yeah, so obsessively modeling the models. Monica: What if they let you down? You still gotta keep your anchor in the one perfect… Russell: Maybe that’s the role model then. Monica: Well, there you go. So one of my favorite things about you and your family is how down to earth and normal you are. What is it that keeps you so humble and grounded when people literally pay thousands of dollars to hear what you have to say? Russell: I think part, I’m going to give Collette so much credit for this. A huge part of it is my wife. My wife doesn’t care about any of this stuff, which is tough for me. As a man, 99% of the reason I do this is to try and impress her, and she’s just like, “I’m good. Will you just come home? I just want you to come home.” You know, and I think that’s a big part of it. I think the second part, we kind of touched upon earlier, because I’ve cycled twice, because I’ve built it and lost it all at a really deep, painful level, I am completely, I am hyper, hyper, hyper aware of the fact that this is not me. There are so many people and experiences and things that have made this possible and if I’m not really careful that could be taken away instantly. Anyway, I have such belief in my role in this world and this life, that it’s like everything I’ve been given, I’ve been given, it’s not something that I, it’s not mine. So I’m very aware of that, and scared of that. And then just the fact that, you know my wife, she’s amazing. And just knowing that like, I don’t know, I think that if I’m not careful, I think I could lose her and my family. And for me it’s like, that’s, there’s a quote David O McKay said, “No success can compensate for failure in the home.” And I think that all the time, like, gall I gotta get home. Because if I fail there, I fail everything. That’s my big mindset. I always think that if my wife was to leave me, it means I failed this life. And I know that’s not true, and I’m nervous saying that because there’s so many people I love that have gone through divorces and things, and that’s not what I’m saying, but I just know for me personally, in my mindset, if that was to happen, that would be the ultimate failure for me. So because of that, I gotta be very careful, because I know, I have so many people that I love and respect, especially in business, that get so obsessed with it, that they lose everything. And I think I definitely have tendencies of doing that, if I’m not really careful. So I try not to be, because I get obsessed with things. I can go to the office and spend like 6 months there, and forget about the world. And if it wasn’t for my beautiful wife, and these amazing kids that like, I gotta go home. If it wasn’t for that, I could be in trouble. So I don’t know, it’s a family and just know, being hyper aware of it’s not me. Monica: I love that. I love that. And I love that you credit Collette, because she could care less what you drive or what you wear, or how much you can bench. She doesn’t care. Russell: She doesn’t care about any of that. I can’t figure it out. Monica: She loves the goofy wrestler that she fell in love with. Alright, what are you most grateful for and how are you giving back? I know you are, I know the answer to this question. But I want you to tell my listeners. I know that you every weekend you teach the little neighborhood kids how to wrestle and you do that totally free because you love it. I love that you do that. Russell: Yeah, there’s so many cool things. I don’t know, I think, I just look at the different gifts I’ve been given, at this part of my life, I’m hyper aware of like, okay why was I given that. Wrestling was one. I wasn’t, I didn’t learn wrestling, as much fun as I had, as much as I loved it, why was I given that gift? There’s a reason, and it wasn’t just to be fun for me. Initially it probably was, but long term, it’s like you’re given gifts…the whole progression of life is interesting if you look at it, right. There’s a time of life where we go through this growth phase where we’re, and as babies that where we are. As babies come out and it’s all about growth right. They’re trying to figure things out. And eventually you stop growing until you shift to contribution. So it’s like the same thing in a marriage. At first it’s just you, then you meet your spouse and all the sudden it’s like, oh my gosh, there’s this other person. And you care about them and all the sudden it’s like, your whole world becomes us, as opposed to me. You become less selfish and it’s like, now we’re together. Then all the sudden you have this amazing kids, and it shifts again from us to them. They’re the most important thing, right. So for me in my life, there’s this huge parallel from being single to being married to being kids, that’s happening in everything. So I was wrestling, there was growth, I was trying to become a better wrestler for me. But it’s like, now I have this gift I was given, what’s the point of it? So it’s like, I’m supposed to contribute, what can I contribute? Help my kids, help the neighborhood kids, if I can bring wrestling to them, it gave me so many gifts, any kid who is interested, let me just help serve there. Same thing as some of the other organizations we work with. There’s a charity called World Teacher Aide that builds schools in Kenya, there’s also Operation Underground Railroad that saves kids from sex slavery. I don’t have the ability to go and save kids from sex slavery. I’m scared of that. The whole mission of these guys that go to Haiti and go to these countries around the world, they go and rescue kids and save, I don’t have the ability to do that. But if I can help over here with the gifts I have been given, if I get the message out to more people, and if I can make more awareness and if I can raise money for them, that’s so exciting because I can help impact that thing without having to do the thing that’s super scary. So it’s like for me, it’s using these gifts that I’m given. I’m trying to become more and more focused, why did God give me that gift because it’s not just,  I don’t think he gives any gifts for us, it’s like how do we now use this for other people. So for me it’s just kind of figuring that out. Why was I given this? Now I’ve got it, what does he want me to do with this? What’s the purpose of it? Monica: Yeah, I love that. I think he gave you the gift of determination. I’m learning that the more I get to know you. I’m like, you are more determined than me. So out of all of your accomplishments what are you the most proud of? Russell: Oh man, I’m not sure exactly the best way to answer this one. I think, I feel like my, I’m supposed to be helping people to, the word that’s in my head is freedom. How can I free people so they can actually do what they need to do? You know what I mean? And I feel like that’s probably the most important thing. If I can give people tools or ideas or thought or permission to free themselves, people are amazing. Monica: I wonder if I could help you a little bit with this. I feel like, I remember once we were talking and you were like, “Money is not a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing to make money. Change your mindset a little bit.” And I thought, and as I think about that more, I think making money is amazing because it gives you so much freedom, so the more money that you have…Like, I want my kids to be hard workers and I want them to learn how to make a lot of money because for us, I know for my husband and I, it’s given him a lot of freedom to be able to coach the neighborhood kids in soccer, and it’s given him the freedom to be at home with his family and make memories with us. And it’s given us the chance to give back a lot. So I think whatever you’re focus is with money, is what you’ll do. So if you value boats and homes and all those things, none of those things, I’m not saying any of them are bad, but if that’s what your focus is that’s what you’re going to spend your money on. But if you believe in making a difference and changing the world somehow, giving your money and your time to worthy causes, then that, being able to do that frees you up so much, to do that. And I see you doing that for people. You’re taking people who are kind of working paycheck to paycheck and just kind of slaves to you know, their circumstances, to being able to like be the captain of their own ship. They’re making their money, they’re making their difference, and I think that’s so cool. Russell: That is cool. If you think about it, even, you remember Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? I remember this from school, I don’t remember all details, but I remember at the bottom, you have to have food and water or else you can’t focus on anything else. Then when food and water is covered then you’re like, “Oh now we need shelter.” When shelter is covered, now you need, that’s the thing, when all you’re doing is starving to death, all you can think about is that. And I think, somewhere in that hierarchy of needs there’s something where we need financial security. And its like, if we can give people that then they don’t have to be stressed about where my food coming from, my paycheck, how am I doing that. If that stress goes away, then yes, they can look outwardly and be like, “How can I bless other people’s lives.” And that’s really, really cool. So yes, you said that perfectly. Way better than I did. I love it. Monica: Alright, my last question.  What is your number one key to success? How did you become Russell Brunson? Russell: Man, I think probably comes down to determination you talked about earlier. And belief. I think belief’s the biggest thing. I think I was blessed, I just think about wrestling, why I was successful in wrestling? I remember going to the state tournament and seeing a guy win the state title and I was like, “I believe I can do that.” So I went out there and just killed myself until I did it. With business, I was not a business major, I didn’t know business anything. I got online and I was trying to figure out how to make money, and I saw these people and I saw what they were doing, and I had so much belief that like, they’re doing it, so I can do it. So I just did it. As soon as I believed it, it was awesome. I still remember when my whole company bankrupt and everything was falling apart and one of my best friends to this day came into me, Brent Coppeiters, and he said, “Hey, so everything looks really scary, we just laid off 80 people. Are we going to be okay?  Is this…?” I was like, “Oh yeah, it’s going to be fine. I don’t know when.” But I knew it would be. I just had perfect belief and hope that it would be fine. He’s like, “Okay, if you believe it then I’m in.” and he started working for half the paycheck and super, despite people in his family wanting him to go do other things. And he’s like, “No, Russell has perfect belief in it and I believe in it.” So I think my biggest thing, when I see something I just believe and then I work my butt off to get that thing, because I have such perfect belief that it’s going to be there. I think a lot of times we don’t believe and that’s what keeps us from trying. “What’s going to work, what’s not? I don’t know.” It’s like, no. Again, it comes back to modeling. Find a person who did it, that person did it, they’re not that much smarter than me, I believe I can do it. I’m in, let’s go. And then start running as fast as I can. Monica: I love it. So where can my listeners find you? Like if they want to know the secrets to funnel hacking and all of that, how can they find you? Russell: Easiest place is just russellbrunson.com, if you go there there’s links to different books I’ve written, the software, our events, everything is kind of, you can find from there. And as you know, there’s a video there on the page of me crying, like a little baby. Monica: You made me cry. I didn’t know that story and I was bawling. I had to pull it all together. Russell: Yeah, that’s the best spot for sure. Monica: Well, thank you so much for being here. I can’t describe to you how thankful I am. Russell: No worries, thanks for having me. I’m so proud of you for actually doing the podcast, and I’m glad you’re running with it. It’s amazing. Monica: And I’m doing everything you say. What was that hashtag? Do everything… Russell: #dowhatrussellsays Monica: Your last advice was find Jenna Kutcher and I have, I bought her course and I’m doing her thing, and I’m doing what Russell says, for sure. That’s a good hashtag. Russell: That’s awesome. Monica: Alright, thank you. Russell: Yeah, thanks so much.

On this special 4 part series Russell shares 2 interviews from the On The Brighter Side podcast that he and his wife, Collette did with Monica Tanner. Here is what you will hear during the first part of Russell’s interview: Find out how Russell met Collette, and was able to snag such a catch. Hear about Russell’s failures in business and how he was able to get past them. And see how Russell was able to overcome extreme introvertedness to become the amazing speaker that he is today. So listen here to the informative first part of Russell’s interview with Monica in this 4 part series. ---Transcript--- Hey everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I’ve got a special fun treat for you over the next 4 episodes, I’m really excited for. We’ve got a friend that lives in our neighborhood who, I have this problem when I meet people where I just tell them that they should launch businesses and podcasts and try to change the world, because that’s just how I view the whole world. We had a chance to meet their family and I told her, “You should start a podcast.” And unlike what most people that hear that, “Oh yeah, that’d be fun.” She actually did it, started a podcast. And because of that, one of her first episodes I went on, and I was one of her very first guests which was super cool. Her name is Monica Tanner and her podcast is called On the Brighter Side. So I did the podcast interview with her and she was, she kind of jokes about it now, she was nervous and it was one of her first ones, the audio quality wasn’t amazing. But she did an interview with me talking a lot about, not so much my successes, here’s how cool Russell is, but more on the failure side, and family side, and things like that, that I thought was really interesting. So that was a really fun podcast interview. And fast forward, like 2 years later she asked my wife to be on the podcast. So Collette did a podcast episode with her, where it’s kind of like the second half, looking at the same questions, not the same but similar questions that she asked me, but through Collette’s lens and how she viewed the experiences and what we do and everything like that. So I asked Monica if she’d be okay with me publishing those 2 podcast episodes here on the Marketing Secrets show and she said yes. So I’m excited for that. So what we’re going to do is I’m going to break it up, each one into halves, so basically it’s going to be a 4 episode series. It’s going to be part 1 with Russell, part 2 with Russell, part 3 with Collette, and part 4 with Collette. Collette’s interview, just so you know is way better than mine, and I’m super proud of her, she did a great job. This is only her second podcast interview ever. So if you love it, let her know, she’s getting more and more used to this and sharing herself and stories, and it’s just been fun watching her blossom and share these things. So I’m grateful for Monica also inviting Collette to be on her podcast as well. So with that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back I will start part 1 of 4 of On the Brighter Side series. So with that said, let’s get started. Monica: Hello, and welcome to On the Brighter Side, I’m your host Monica Tanner. Today I have a super special treat for you guys. My guest today is the husband of one of my very best friends in the whole wide world, the dad of some of my very favorite kids besides my own, he’s our neighbor and friend and one of the kindest men I know. Over the past ten years he’s built a following of over a million entrepreneurs, sold hundreds of thousands of copies of his books, popularized the concept of sales funnels and cofounded a software company called Clickfunnels, that helps tens of thousands of entrepreneurs quickly get their message out to the marketplace. Please help me welcome my guest today, Russell Brunson. Hi Russell. Russell: Hey, how’s it going? Monica: Good, thanks so much for joining us today. So my first question for you is about your wife. Russell: The coolest person I know. Monica: Yes, because I’m dying to know how a goofy wrestler got a catch like Collette to marry him. What did you have to do to convince her? Russell: That was actually, it’s funny because I’m famous for selling stuff, and that was probably the hardest sale I ever had, was convincing her to marry me. Monica: I bet, that’s awesome. Russell: It’s funny because when we first met, she’s 5 ½ years older than me, and a bunch of my then roommates kind of had crushes on her, so we’d always go, as an apartment, go hang out over there, because they were all trying to date her and stuff like that. And I didn’t think that was even a possibility. So I’d just come hang out because I had nothing else to do, and after a little while we just kind of started liking each other, and then that was the big question. “Can I date someone 5 ½ years older than me?” And I’m like, “Would she actually like someone 5 ½ years younger than her?” That was the other side of the question. And she said yes to the first date, and it all worked out in the end. Monica: Okay, so most people who know you, know you as a fantastically successful business man, a marketer, a public speaker, an author, a guy who can do everything. And I’ve been super excited to interview and strategically place your interview after my episode on failure, because I know that you haven’t always been this successful. I know that you’ve had to overcome some things and even fail at a few other business endeavors before you got where you are, so I was hoping you would start by telling us that story. Russell: Yeah, there’s actually a lot of stories about my failures. How many do you want? Monica: As many as you have time for. Russell: No, it’s funny because when I first started my business, I was in college and just met Collette, and we were about to get married. And it was the first time, I remember I told my dad, “Hey, I’m getting married.” And he was like, “Well, how are you going to support yourself?” And I was like, “Well, you’ve been supporting me.” And he was like, “Well, when you get married, I don’t do that anymore.” I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t even think through that.” When you get married you’re a grown man and you’re on your own. I was like, okay I gotta figure it out. So that’s the start of this whole process. I started learning about how to, internet marketing and how to sell things and tried a whole bunch of, I spent probably about 2, almost 2 years trying stuff that didn’t work. So there’s a whole slew of failures in there. But some of the bigger ones were after I started figuring out, “Oh, this is how internet marketing works, you create a product, you set up a website, you get people to come to it…” Just kind of learned the basics and started making some money. And really quick I started hiring some people because it started getting overwhelming, so I hired some of my friends. And it’s funny because anybody who would ask me a question about it, I’d hire them because I was like, “Oh you care about this, let me hire you, I need someone to hang out with that will talk to me.” Because no one else knew what I was doing or cared about it, you know. So I ended up hiring a bunch of my friends and we started growing the company and there’s this really weird thing, as entrepreneurs you make money when you sell something and that’s it, but as employees you get paid every two weeks whether you make money or not. So I started growing this business and they’d want a paycheck. “Hey it’s payday.” And I’m like, “We don’t have any money.” And they’re like, “Well, we have to get paid.” So I’d be like oh. So I’d try and put together something really quick to sell, and I’d pay payroll. And then they’re out of money again. And I knew payday was in 2 weeks again. And I’d literally ignore all my staff because I didn’t have time to train them on stuff, I had to go make money so I could pay for them. So they were sitting on the other side of the office just wondering what they should do, while I was hiding away trying to make money to pay for them. It was this horrible thing. And that was the first time, it was like Christmas time and everything, basically I ran out of money and ran out of ideas, and I was like, “I have to fire all my friends and a bunch of my family members.” Which was a scary thing. And it’s funny, I was out hanging Christmas lights up and listening to an MP3 of somebody telling some business ideas, and someone had an idea and I was like, “I can try that.” So I called them up and I was like, “Hey guys, you don’t know this yet, but we’re completely broke. I have no money for payroll or Christmas. But I think I got an idea, do you guys want to come try this thing out.” And they were kind of confused, and then they all jumped in and we got together and we put together a new plan, and it’s funny now, we’ll probably talk about funnels a little bit, but it was a funnel we put together. We didn’t call them that back in the day, but we created this thing and we launched it and we made enough money to cover everyone for Christmas, and it also built a continuity business so we could actually have money coming in. So that was the first time we kind of almost collapsed the business. But after that I kind of figured out, oh, this is how it was working again. So then we started growing really big, and grew to the point where we had 100 and something employees, and then one day over night, that whole business lost all our merchant accounts and everything shut down. It was when the economy was changing and I had to lay off about 80 people in one day. A lot of them were friends and family members, all of them were friends, some family members as well. Then over the next 3 ½ - 4 years of my life it was just like, laying off more people and trying to like keep the doors open and almost going through bankruptcy twice, almost getting sued by people we owed money to, trying to figure out how to pay them. It was a really dark, painful 2 ½ - 3 years or so. We owed a bunch of money to the IRS, and finally we were able to work out of it. But those were the 2, and when I think back about the whole thing, those are the 2 biggest times that my business kind of crashed. And it’s funny, after the second big crash when I had to lay off all those people, I had a chance to meet this guy who had made hundreds of millions of dollars, super wealthy, and he asked me to tell him my story. So I told him the highlight reel that most people hear about. And he’s like, “Well, have you ever failed?” and I was like, “Uh…” so I reluctantly told him those stories about the failures. And he’s like, “Okay, good. You’ve cycled.” And I was like, “What does that mean?” And he’s like, “You’ve cycled.” And I’m like, “Okay, what does that mean?” and he said, “I’ll never work with an entrepreneur who hasn’t cycled at least once. If they’re always successful they still believe their own bio, they still drink their own kool-aid. After you’ve built something and you’ve lost it all, then you’ve cycled. Then you’re humble enough to actually be able to work with you. To actually create something really, really cool. Because you’ve cycled twice I’d actually work with you.” And I remember thinking, that sounds so much better than failure. But it’s so true now. A lot of times when I work with people, you see the first time they have success, they’re going crazy and so much stuff is always, they make a lot of decisions a lot of times, not super arrogant, but they think it’s them, and you realize when you do have the big failures that it’s like, oh, it’s not you, there’s a lot of other people involved, and there’s timing, there’s inspiration from God, and there’s people. There’s so many things that happen and it’s like, as soon as you forget about that, it feels like the lord humbles you. So ever since the second crash I’ve tried to be super aware of that constantly. And I’m not perfect, but I’m very aware of, okay who are all the people that are in charge of this? What are the inspirations from God coming and guiding me on these things? And trying to be very aware of those, because I’m just scared that if I’m not aware, it’s going to happen again. Monica: So what would be your big takeaway? Would you say that instead of calling it failure, maybe we’re cycling, or….? Russell: I think so. And I think people become okay with that. One of the biggest problems with entrepreneurs I work with is they’re so scared of the potential of crashing that they don’t risk things or try things. And I always tell them, if you look at the founding fathers, they gave us this blessing, I think it’s a gift from God, the bankruptcy laws. I’m like, worst case scenario, if you go bankrupt it’s not the end of the world. It’s a gift that we can reset and start over, and that’s what gives entrepreneurs and people the ability to risk and try things, knowing that worst case scenario there’s a reset and you can start over. So I always tell people that. It’s not a, it’s okay to be, I think it’s okay to fail, and to be prepared for it. When I first started this journey I was listening to Brian Tracey, he was doing an interview I was listening to and he said that one night he was watching TV and there was this panel of millionaires, and there was 17 millionaires on this panel and they were interviewing all of them. And one thing the host asked was, “How many times did you guys each fail before you were successful?’ and they didn’t know the answer so they cut to commercial while they counted, and they came back and said, I think out of the people up there they averaged that they all failed on average 14 times before they had their success. And Brian Tracey said, “Do you think it’s they just got, you know they failed, and they failed and eventually they got lucky and they did it? Or do you think it’s they failed and figured out that didn’t work and they failed and got better and got better until eventually it’s like they couldn’t not be successful.” And I think it’s the other way. The failures are okay, because it’s protecting you from that thing again, and it gets you closer and closer to where you’re at. I know that if I would have launched out company, Clickfunnels ten years ago, I would have bankrupted it 4 or 5 times by now. But all these things I’ve learned going on this journey now, I’m hyper aware of there’s a gap here, there’s a way I could fail here, there’s things that are happening and I’m able to protect myself because of that, because of the failure. So I feel like the failure’s preparing you for whatever your bigger mission is someday. Monica: I love that, I love that so much. So my question is for you personally, after that second crash, where you were so close to the bottom, why not just get a regular job somewhere working for someone? What gave you the idea and the courage to start from, just to do it over again? Russell: Um, I actually remember, vividly remember laying in bed one day thinking, “I wish that I had a boss so he could fire me.” Because it was like, I wanted, I would have loved to step away from that. For me, the circumstances of the whole crash, I wasn’t able to. I had a bookkeeper who didn’t pay, I didn’t know this at the time, hadn’t paid payroll taxes in over a year, and we had sold a whole bunch of coaching, so we had a whole bunch of students who had bought stuff, so we had outstanding liabilities to. So I woke up every morning for a 2 year period of time knowing that if I don’t pay the IRS back, and payroll, I didn’t know this at the time, payroll taxes are not like they just give you a fine. Payroll taxes they lock you up and you go to jail. So I was like, if I don’t figure out how to pay the IRS, I go to jail, which is a really scary thing to think through. And I had sold stuff to people and I had to keep fulfilling on it, and if I didn’t fulfill on it, it would have destroyed my name and my reputation and I would have lost that forever too, which is like….So I go to jail or lose my reputation or both. And I was like, “I can’t quit.” Even if I wanted to. So for me, those are the 2 things that were really the driving forces that kept me in it. But then it’s like, I don’t know… Monica: But you could’ve just quite. You could’ve just said, “Take me to jail. I don’t care about my reputation. I’m going to get a 9 to 5, this is too much stress.” Russell: Yeah, I guess you could have. But there’s something, I grew up as a wrestler and I just know that all the good stuff in wrestling came on the back of defeat. My junior year of high school I thought I was going to be state champ and my very first match I lost it. But that loss, the person I lost to, my dad filmed that match and we went and watched it a thousand times over. And then in the state finals I actually wrestled the same guy and ended up beating him in the finals. And then I looked at all my big successes, being an All-American, all those things, they all came on the back of a bunch of failures. It’s like, okay, here’s the mistakes, here’s the problems, let’s focus on that. What are the tweaks and changes we gotta make to come back and do better next time? So for me, it was more like that. As painful as it was, and as much as I just wanted to give up, it’s more like, what are the changes? We saw it work before, I’d seen it before. I’d seen a company with a hundred people generates a lot of revenue and helps a lot of people. So I was able to see the fruits of it, and I loved that part of it, and I think part of me missed that part. I’m like, we just gotta figure out how to get back to there. We were there once, we just gotta figure out the model and how to change it and tweak it. Luckily for us, eventually we figured it out again. Monica: Yeah. So do you credit wrestling with that resilience that kept you in there, in the game and going and working hard? Russell: 100% I think most athletes I know do good in other things in life. Business, not all of them, some of them are dumb. I have a lot of friends who are train wrecks, but for me 100%. Wrestling and sports together teaches you so much stuff, right. Most people in their life, they don’t do sports, they don’t ever fail. They are in a thing where they’re studying, they’re learning to take a test, they get a grade and those kind of things. But they don’t have a chance to fail. Where most sports, especially wrestling for me, because typical wrestling season you have 30-40 matches and off season you’ve got another 80, so you’re looking at 100 matches a year. Most people don’t win 100 matches a year. You lose tons of those, right. So for me it was that way. I lost so many times and I think losing is such a good thing because you learn. Either you give up and walk away, and throw your hands in. Or you’re like, okay I gotta beat….and for me, especially when wrestling is like, you see the person, you know who they are, and next week they’re going to be at the same tournament again. I gotta beat this guy next week and it makes you so frustrated. So you watch the match, figure out what they’re doing, and then practice all week until you see them again, and you try again. If they beat you again, you’re like, “ah.” And you come back and keep doing it until the end. So it helps a lot. Monica: I agree. I’m starting to understand your drive here. So I talk a lot on my blog and my podcast about finding your life’s purpose. So what do you think is your life’s purpose, and does it include making a whole bunch of millionaires? Russell: I love making millionaires, that is fun. Monica: You’re good at it. Russell: Yeah, in our office now, I don’t know if you’ve seen, you’ve seen our 2 Comma Club awards right? So we have this hallway, it was the bathroom hallway, and everyone who makes a million dollars inside of Clickfunnels, gets a big plaque. And now both sides of the hallway from floor to ceiling are filled, and now the kitchen is completely filled too. And we’ve got maybe, 30 or 40 days before we have no more room in our office to hang up these plaques for everyone. But for me, to be honest, I didn’t know for a long time what my mission was, at all. I was excited by this, business, and sales, and marketing got me excited. But I always felt kind of shallow, what’s the point of all this? I don’t know. But I was learning it, and I was excited so I kept doing it. And honestly it wasn’t probably until about a year ago that I really started getting clarity on what my vision was, and I had a really good coach named Tara Williams I was working with at the time and she used to ask me, “Do you see the parallels of what you’re doing?” And I was like, “No, I’m just trying to make money.” And she’s like, ‘Do you need more money?” I’m like, “No.” and she’s like, “Then why do you keep doing this?” I was like, “Because…” And I started telling her stories of people, I’m like, okay I’ll rattle off a couple of quick stories that are fun. One is there is this girl named Annie Grace that works with us who, she beat alcohol addiction, but she couldn’t do it through a 12 step program, she found her own way to do it, she’d written books about it, and a year ago she came to our program, and she’s like, “I want to help change the world.” And she didn’t know how to do it. I was like, “I don’t know how to help people with alcohol addiction, but I know how to get your message out to a bunch of people.” So we gave her some tools and some training and she’s helped in the last 12 months over 50,000 people to overcome alcohol addiction. There’s a guy Chrisbeatcancer.com who got the death sentence as a 27 or 28 year old that he had cancer. And he decided not to do chemo therapy and thought you know, can I cure myself? I don’t ‘know. So he started going and tried to cure himself and eventually cures himself naturally. And he decided, “I need to get this message out to people.” So we’ve been able to help give him tools and systems to get that out. And he’s helped tens of thousands of people naturally cure themselves of cancer. Pamela Wible helps doctors who have been suicidal. She said, thousands of doctors from suicide through our tools and our training. I just look at all these people who have gifts that I don’t have. I can’t help a doctor not commit suicide, or I can’t help someone lose weight, I can’t…I don’t know those things, but because of what I’ve done I’ve learned how to get someone whatever their business, their product, their service out to more people, and so for me, I really feel like that’s my mission now. How do I empower entrepreneurs to actually change the world?  So ever since then, ever since I kind of got that, I’ve become hyper obsessed with entrepreneurs and how I can help them, how can I give them the tools, the inspiration, whatever it is? Because I’m a huge believer that entrepreneurs are the only people that can actually change the world. I don’t think politicians are going to do it. I don’t think government is going to do it. I see entrepreneurs who are obsessively compassionate about their thing that they’ve figured out, and that’s who changes the world. So for me, it’s just like, if I can empower each of them then that’s my mission, to help them be able to change their world. So that’s kind of my thoughts. Monica: I think that’s awesome. I love it so much. And I love watching you work. So I’ve seen you speak at some live events and I know you get up there and you command a room with thousands of people in it. But I also know you personally and socially I know you as really shy and reserved. I know you’d rather… Russell: I’m awkward. Monica: Not awkward, but shy. But I know you’d rather hang out in the corner and observe than be out working the room, which is what people would think if they see you at these live events. So which of these personalities comes more naturally to you? Like, what’s the real Russell? Russell: I’m 100% the awkward weird kid. No, it’s funny because two months ago I spoke at an event that had 9000 people in the room, and I was onstage and I just loved every second of it. It was so much fun. But then afterwards I was in the hallway and someone came to talk, ask me a question. And one of the guys who works with me, Dave Woodward, he told me, “You should see your body language. When you’re onstage, you’re body is just like excited. When someone comes up to you you’re just like, scared to death.” And I think for sure, that’s definitely more naturally who I am. My whole life I was awkward and nervous growing up. I didn’t have a ton of friends. The one thing I had growing up was wrestling. That was my thing, so I was friends with wrestlers. It’s funny, my 20 year high school reunion is this year, and I was looking at the list of everyone who was coming. I didn’t know anyone who was coming. None of the wrestlers were showing up, and I didn’t know anybody. I’m like, how did I not know anybody? I didn’t know anybody. I wasn’t friends with anyone. I went on a mission for our church and I was awkward and nervous there. In fact, I reconnected with my mission president recently and he told me, he came to our last event and he was like, “I would never in a million years, pegged you to be the one onstage doing that.” I’m like, oh. But it was funny because I remember consciously when I made that decision to try to figure that out. I had been selling things online behind the computer and I was comfortable there and I liked it. And I went to my very first internet marketing seminar, it was in Atlanta, Georgia, it was this guy name Armand Morin that put it on. And Ir emember I wanted to go because I didn’t know anybody else who was doing what I was doing and I felt lonely. And entrepreneurship I think a lot of times is lonely, because you share ideas with people and they usually look at you like, “Oh, wow. Good luck with that.” You know what I mean? Their eyes glaze over. So I didn’t have anyone to talk to about this whole thing, so I knew there was this event and all these entrepreneurs were going to come. So I was like, I’m going to come and just be with my people. I was so excited. So I went there and I remember I didn’t know how events were run back then, and back then the way that they were, a lot of people call them pitch fests. Where every speaker comes and they sell something, and I didn’t know that’s what it was. So I come to this event and the first speaker gets onstage and he talks for like 90 minutes, and at the end of it he sells something. And I was so confused. I was like, “Is he selling us something?” I didn’t understand what was happening. But I saw he was selling a $2000 thing, and all these people were jumping up and running to the back of the room. And I remember looking back, doing the math, “$2000, 4, 6, 8, 10… that guy made like $80,000 in an hour.” And then the next speaker gets up and he was selling a $5000 package. And he sold it and people were running back. And I did the math and he did like $150,000. And I watched this for 3 days, speaker after speaker. And at the end I was like, I have to learn how to do that. If someone can stand on a stage and in an hour make more money than I made in an entire year, or some people in an entire lifetime, I have to learn that art and how that works. And it’s funny because it didn’t come naturally. Someone invited me to speak in this seminar, so I went for the first time. It’s so embarrassing. I had a shaved head back then and glasses, and I always wore a suit and tie, because I thought that’s how, you know, you had to be a business person. And I went and stood up on stage, and I was super nervous and awkward and I tried to sell something and nobody bought. AndI was like, I will never do this again. And I didn’t for a long time. But then I kept seeing this happening. I would go to other events and I would see stuff and I was like, this is a skill set I have to learn. So I ended up spending the next, almost 10 years of my life doing that. About 2 ½ - 3 years I was flying around the country speaking at events, trying to learn the art of it, trying to get comfortable doing it. It was so scary. And then about 2 ½ years in, this was after we had the twins were born, and I remember I was at the Boise Airport one night, it was like 11:30 at night. I was the only one in the airport and I was miserable. I’m like, I’m flying somewhere else to go speak, and I just wanted to be home. And I remember texting Collette, I was like, “Hey, I’m retiring. I’m going to be done with this.” And she’s like, “You can’t. That’s how we make our money.” I’m like, ‘I know, I’ll figure out some other way. I’m done.” So I basically quit speaking and then I went and like, how do I replicate this on the internet? So we started doing teleseminars back then, and then webinars, and that became how we kind of did stuff. But I went out of my comfort zone to learn it, and became comfortable with it, and now, you know, I teach thousands of entrepreneurs how to do that. How to either do it on a webinar or on a teleseminar, or onstage. Because I think that having your own platform is the best way to get your message out there and be able to actually change people’s lives. It’s hard to do it if you’re going to be the awkward introverted person. So for me, I had to come out of that to be able to actually have the impact I really wanted. But it’s still, you go to church with me, I’m this shy guy inside. In my last ward, last church, nobody knew what I did. Nobody ever asked, it was kind of nice, so I was fine. In this ward, someone found out, they told people, and now people ask me questions. Monica: We all know. So I’m dying to know, because it doesn’t come naturally to you, I know that because I know you, but is there something that you like, do you have to mentally prepare somehow? Do you say something to yourself? How do you just prep yourself to go so far out of your comfort zone? Do you play the Rocky soundtrack in your mind? What do you do? Russell: It’s funny because I still get super nervous every time, and people are always like, “How do you get nervous? You do this all the time.” I’m like, I don’t know. It’s the same way with wrestling. Even though I was wrestling someone who wasn’t good, I would still get insane butterflies and nervousness and all that stuff. But as soon as I would step on the mat and shake their hand, as soon as you shook their hand, it would instantly disappear and you were in the zone. And for me, it’s the same way. I get so nervous. I think the biggest thing I’ve found, it’s funny, one of my friends, my employees caught me the other day, he didn’t know  I do this, but I always before I go find somewhere to go pray. And basically I just pray that I will be able to have the thoughts in my head to actually inspire people to do what they need to do. And that’s the biggest comforting thing to me, is just praying. Understanding that it’s not me, because I think a lot of times we get nervous because it’s like, this is us, and it’s like putting us on trial. Are they going to like me? Are they not going to like me? That freaks us out. And I think over the last few years I’ve come to the realization that my job is not to care if people like me, it’s like, can I actually have the impact to change this person? And so that’s become more important to me, so I always pray for that and that gives me, that helps calm my nerves. But then it’s still scary. I get out there and it’s like, even the smaller ones, where it’s smaller. I get so nervous and anxiety, and as soon as they introduce me and I come out and see everybody and it’s like, it goes away because I can serve, I can help. And it’s just so much fun. Monica: That’s so cool.

Improving Donor Relations: Getting The Right Message To The Right People With The Right RhythmInterview with Wordsprint CEO Bill Gilmer Read the Interview Hugh Ballou: Hey, folks, it's Hugh Ballou. Another chapter of The Nonprofit Exchange. Russell David Dennis, last week you and I were in Florida. It's a good thing we're not there this week. Russell Dennis: Yes, it's a bit windy down there now. I'm hoping everyone is okay. It's looking like the storm is turning off and it's not going as far inland as they initially thought. Hopefully all of our friends and the wonderful people down at Kaiser who made us feel so welcome are okay. Hugh: It's called a hurricane, but it's really a slowcane. It's going slowly through there. Welcome folks to this episode. We have a special guest today, Bill Gilmer. He has been on the ride with us ever since we started the magazine. I think over five years ago. Bill Gilmer, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Bill Gilmer: Thanks. Glad to be here. Unlike Russell, I am in chillier Blacksburg, Virginia. No hurricane on my horizon, I don't think. Hugh: Yeah, we just are down the road in Lynchburg. Bill, we ask our guests to say a little bit about themselves. Some background. Why is it you're doing this important work you're doing today? Bill: My background, I used to be a printer. I used to run a printing company. Over the years, we discovered that most of the work we were doing was for nonprofits. Over the years, we started tracking response rates on donor relation campaigns. We have put together a system of marketing to donors, and that's what we do every day. Help folks build relationships with their donor base. Hugh: You've been working with SynerVision five or six years ago. Let's declare up front that Wordsprint, Bill's company, is a sponsor of Nonprofit Performance Magazine and SynerVision's work in general. We talk about you often on these podcasts. It's a pleasure to have you here live and in person. This is not an infomercial for Wordsprint, but we know the value of your work. We talk about the 30/30/30. That's the secret for success. Just to be clear, people can do this on their own. They don't need you. But if they want to do it the very best way possible, you know how to do that. I want to be clear on that. Explain what this 30/30/30/10 is all about. Bill: What we discovered, and this is lots of data, we started tracking this back in the early 2000s. I think we're up to 20 million touches, 15,000 campaigns. What we discovered is that there are three things that matter. It's our three-bit marketing system. There are three things that matter when it comes to donor relations. The first is having the right message. The second is getting that right message to the right people. The third is getting the right message to the right people with the right rhythm. We help clients focus their message, stay consistent with their message, stay on message. We help them with the right people by helping with database cleansing, database acquisition, all kinds of demographics and predictive analytics. But most importantly, we have developed a system for staying consistent and rhythmic with your donor touches. We've observed through all our data that is where many nonprofits fail. It's the rhythm and consistency. The right message to the right people with the right rhythm. That's the 30/30/30. Hugh: What do you say to people who say, “I've tried mailing. It didn't work. We tried sending out a mailing at the end of the year, and we got a little bit of money, but it doesn't work, Bill.” Bill: I tell them that I tried dieting once last year, and it didn't work either. Hugh: I tried working out once, and it didn't work either. Bill: I tried to exercise once, and it didn't work. It really is like diet or exercise or physical therapy. These are things that work if you implement them rhythmically. It's not a quick fix. Rhythm doesn't become rhythm right away. It needs a few cycles. In fact, on average, for most of our clients, it's really in the third year of repeated rhythmic touches that the donations start to snowball, that it really begins to build. This is not a showhorse thing. This is drip marketing, if you will. But it works. Hugh: It works. I've seen it work. Dig a little deeper into the right person and the right message. I want to know more about how I can do this. Bill: The right message, the first pillar, is your brand. It's who you are. It's why you go to work every day. It's your mission. It's your elevator speech. What we found that nonprofits who stay on message, who stay true to themselves about who they are, are the ones more successful over time as opposed to those who try to be all things to all people or try to repackage it or try to rebrand every year. I'm not saying you can't rebrand, but you need to do so carefully. The right message is mainly a matter of consistency and articulating it clearly. Having the right taglines, having the right logo, having the right paragraphs. The right people gets more complicated. It is all about relationships. We find that the nonprofits who succeed are those who create a database culture, where they take those relationships and get them into the database that everyone in the organization is empowered to update. Your best donors are the people you know. People donate to people. People donate to you because they trust you to fulfill your mission. It's the people you know, the people you run into, the people who come to your open house. These are the best potential donors. The organizations who know how to capture that and bring them into their database so they get rhythmic touches and notifications are the ones who succeed. You can also acquire data. We do a lot of this. Using some fancy predictive analytics, we can acquire names of people who are more likely to donate to your cause than others. That is almost a whole topic in itself. Hugh: Talk a little bit about that. We constantly run across people who say, “I don't know anybody.” If we do have people who are in nonprofits that maybe they get donations, but they don't have a donor management program per se, or they work with a number of early stage. Talk a bit about how you acquire names legally. Is there a magic database program that I can use to connect them with? Bill: It's all legal. There are about six or seven big players in this game called compilers. These are companies who do nothing but purchase, massage, and resell databases. You've heard of some of them. Dunne & Bradstreet does this mostly with businesses. Experian. Equifax, the one that had the big data breach. InfoUSA. There are others. There are literally thousands of brokers and people who take the information from these larger players and resell it to folks like us and you. Demographics are available. We as a society click a lot. We are on our computers and are clicking. We go to Amazon. We read the paragraph. We look at another book. We order this. We fill out a warranty card. We subscribe to a magazine. We join a club. All of those are data transactions that are public and can be sold and resold. The hard demographics have always been there, things like the value of your home, the car you drive. That's public information. But these compilers gather so many data points on all of us as consumers that they are able with artificial intelligence help to see patterns and build logorhythms. They know if you've done this and this and this, then you are more likely to support a nonprofit that focuses on children and especially disabled children. That is how detailed it can get. Or you are more likely to support a local nonprofit that works in the music arts, like an orchestra or a symphony. We call this predictive analytics. This is data that indicates the likelihood of someone supporting your cause. This has gotten way better than it even was six months ago. What we usually do—and Hugh, you have had some recent experience with this with one of your organizations—when we do a database acquisition like this, we then compare it to the organization's existing donor database. If the predictive analytics have been accurate, there will be considerable overlap. Your organization had 3,000 names. We bought another 700-800. Three years ago, you'd expect 10-12 of those to be an overlap. We had a 250-name overlap in that case. Those analytics were extremely accurate. These are folks not just demographically speaking but in terms of propensity are more likely to support your cause. You still have to touch them and touch them rhythmically. That is where the rhythm thing comes in. That is where you need to establish a system of cadent touches over the course of several cycles. At the end of the second or the beginning of the third year, that is where you will start to see donations come in, and it will start to snowball over time. Hugh: When you are talking about clicking, we're talking about mail in the U.S. We are not talking about email with our computer. Bill: I don't think I caught the last part of your question. In terms of what we advise for donor relations, it's a combination of mailing and emailing. Russell: It's so systematic to your approach to keeping and maintaining donors. Especially small nonprofits will be overwhelmed when they start thinking about all this data, and maybe a little confused as to what a touchpoint is. Lots of folks like me get lots of mail and email from a lot of the same folks. Maybe they think, “Oh, I don't want to be this person who is bombarding something with emails a day.” When you talk in terms of touches, there are certain things you are accomplishing with each touch. Let's take a generic year or quarter and talk about what touchpoints there are and the methods behind them. Bill: Let me give you a common example of a mid-sized local nonprofit. Let's say they have 10-12 staff. On average, our clients would have several touches. They would probably have one event every year. In the spring, they will do a luncheon where they talk about their cause and ask people for money while they are there. They might have a monthly blog. The first Monday of every month, they put something out on social media. They might have a fall appeal mailing. Here is where they write a letter. “Dear Dr. Smith, Here is what we do. Please give us money.” If they are smart, they will have that appeal mailing coupled with an auto trigger email, where the day after Dr. Smith gets the letter, he gets an automatic email that says, “Hey Dr. Smith, did you get our letter yesterday? I bet you trashed it, didn't ya? You can still click here to support our cause.” Once in the winter and once in the summer, they will do an e-newsletter. They are sending out information two or three times a year. Information only. They are asking for money in a hard ask twice a year. In the example I gave, once with a mailer/email and once with an event. Something like that. We have some clients who do mailers and ask for money every month. We have others who do it once a year with a hard mailing. What we don't have is much success with straight email solicitation. People do like the convenience of donating online, but they don't trust it unless it has something based in the physical world, whether that's a letter they got and threw away, then they get the mail. They will trust it a lot more because they have the mail piece. They go to an open house, and they then trust the email because they associate it with the real-life physical experience they had. That would be typical. A hard ask twice a year, information only two or three times, and maybe something monthly on social media. What we find does not work is the single big blast. So many people want to put all their eggs into one basket. We will have this big shindig and send out 200,000 invitations. It doesn't do that well. It is better to touch 200 people rhythmically than 200,000 in a blast. Is that helpful? Russell: The key is to spread these over with ask, non-ask. Give them information about the programs they were talking about in the newsletter. How the dollars are impacting, how many people were served, what the shift is. Bill: Impact is huge. Russell: If we're talking about contacting 200 people at a time, this probably means for a medium-sized nonprofit they are sending stuff out weekly to different donors.   Bill: Most of our clients, an average database for our clients is in the range of 2,000-10,000 donors. We often do mailings of 3,000. Sometimes we do 100,000. On average, let's say 5,000. Most of our clients would do one or two mailings a year. A fall appeal and a spring appeal. In lieu of the spring appeal, sometimes they would do a spring event. The other touches, the social media and the e-newsletter when they are not asking are information only. That would be a balanced mix. Let me get to another key point. This is the magic right here. Rhythm is important. Understanding the rhythm that your clients respond to. Most of you know this. Most nonprofit organizations have a pretty good understanding of how often their donors and potential donors want to be asked. Once a year, twice a year, once a month sometimes. The organization usually knows what the rhythm should be. Rhythm is so important that you sustain it over the years that our biggest piece of advice is adjust the scale to match your budget so that you can sustain the rhythm. We actually help clients with spreadsheets so it says we want to mail to 20,000 people twice a year. The postage alone exceeds your budget. You can't do that. “Let's try it one time.” Don't do it. Adjust that scale. If you can't afford the postage of 20,000 appeal letters, can you do 10,000? No. 5,000? You play with that spreadsheet and settle on we can sustain 2,500 twice a year. That's the amount you go with. You have this pool of 10,000. How do you target down to the 2,500? That's how you do predictive analytics. Mail to the 2,500 who are most likely to donate to your cause. It's a budget thing. You adjust your scale to match your budget so you can sustain that rhythm because if you sustain the rhythm through several cycles, it works. This is based on data of what actually works, not what makes you feel or look good, but did the donations come rolling in. Russell: What is the best path to help a new organization or client when they come to you? They may have some stuff they kept on Excel, but they don't necessarily have a donor database or CRM. They looked at these things and thought they were hard to use. They know they need to get better information. Talk about that process where you help them look at the most important factors and how to organize that data and how you guide them to build that so they get effective data from what they are collecting. Bill: There are lots of databases out there as you know. We deal with lots of them. People are constantly asking us which one is the best. All I can honestly say is the best one is the one that someone in your organization is willing to dive into. The right operator, any of these databases can sing. They really can. Some of our biggest clients use Salesforce for their nonprofit data. There is a whole spectrum. It's not so much which CRM system you use. It's do you have someone and a back-up or two who know how to use it? If you have no money and can't do anything, use Excel. It's not so much what you use as how you use it. We can assist. We understand a lot of the databases. We love working with Excel in terms of immediate back-and-forth with our clients. They will export their database to a CSV or Excel file, and we will update the addresses and run through a deceased person's filter. Make sure that list is scrubbed and clean. But we do all that from Excel. Russell: It's a robust program. Microsoft itself. What trips people up more than anything else is understanding what are the most important pieces for me to collect, and then once I collect all of these, what is the best way to categorize or shift my people around or look at now I have it, how do I use it? Bill: This leads into something new we have been doing within the last couple of years. Let's say you inherit a nonprofit. You come in as the new executive director. There has been some staff turnover, and you have three or four huge Excel files with all your donors. You don't really know your donors. You have some record of who gave when, but you don't know why the other people are in there. Are they good prospects? We can actually take that database, those Excel files, do all the usual stuff, combine, de-dupe, update the addresses, make sure they aren't deceased. Then we do something called data append. We send that file—let's say you have 3,000 names but you only know who 50 are—confidentially to some of these national compilers. They can run it versus their data banks and come back with demographic data filled in where you get age, education level, the value of the home, household income, gender, political persuasion, all sorts of things you can add back to that list. That can be a target. You can say, “Listen, these 300 people don't match the profile of our donors. I don't see why we're mailing to them. They haven't given to us in five years. Let's drop them. But these 400 look really good. They match the profile. They are active in the community. Let's keep them on our list.” We call it scoring data or modeling data. There are all kinds of things like that. Russell: There are so many nuances to relating to donors. They come from different backgrounds, education levels, parts of the country. They are in different age groups. When people look at this and say, “I have a lot of different people,” what is the best way for me to organize these groups? What are their touchpoints that are more effective for some groups than others? How do we go about looking at that? Bill: One thing I haven't talked about yet is what channel you use. Is this a demographic that will respond to a Facebook post or a physical newsletter or an e-newsletter? You can ask them. That's a good question. “Would you prefer to receive this?” Make some age and generation assumptions. Millennials actually like direct mail more than you think. Some older folks don't like it as much as you think. The one thing we do advise people to do is do what we call a scattergraph. That's where you sit around the table brainstorming and make a graph of your best donors in terms of age, income level, value of home, education level, geography. As you start graphing this, you will have people all over that graph. You will have young kids who donate to your cause. You have great-grandfathers. You have uneducated and educated. But there will be, the more you plot those dots on your graph, a cluster in the middle. That is your sweet spot. If you want to go after and acquire more donors, acquire more who match those demographics. Add those predictive analytics. It's good to have a profile of who is our sweet spot donor, and how many. Russell: Very helpful. When you start working with an organization, what type of organization are you most effective at helping? What are some of the things that the organization can do that will help you get them results a little faster? Bill: That's a great question, Russell. We find that most nonprofits are pretty good at the first 30%, the message. Nonprofits know most well why they do what they do. It's their passion. It's why they go to work. They usually have that part nailed down. They have that elevator speech. You can't shut them up. They got the message. We find that we can help a lot with the rhythm. We can build these Excel sheets. We can send reminder notifications. “Make sure your blog is written. It's due tomorrow.” “Your e-newsletter should launch next week.” We send reminders that keep them on track, like how a FitBit reminds you to hop up and walk around. These notifications keep you on track. The one that is hardest is the data. It's relationships. We don't know the people in their database, but they do. They know more of them than not. Say the thing in the organization could do is the best results is to go through their database with as many constituents involved as possible: your volunteers, your staff, your key donors. Break it up into small bits, and do a little bit at a time. Try to understand who your donors are. That would probably be the best. Leverage your board. Every board member should have a gun to their head that says, “Who do you know who might donate to your cause? Give us their names.” Leverage conversations. Your whole staff should be encouraged. You have a new administrative assistant who is helping you with this. She bumps into someone at the grocery store who says, “Hey Sally, I haven't seen you in a long time. What are you doing?” “I'm working at Habitat for Humanity now. We are doing this and this.” That person says, “Wow, that sounds interesting. Tell me more.” Sally needs to know to come back and get that information in the database. That person she just bumped into in the grocery store is a better prospect than any of these purchased names we are talking about. Everyone in the organization from the board to the staff to the volunteers should realize it is their personal relationships that lead to the best database. Russell: It's a warm referral that is good. One of the things that I've seen information on and talked to people about in having people on your team, you want to have good tools for them to use to go out and talk about your organization. If you can take a few minutes, talk about some of the tools, printed tools, the toolkits that you make the board members and volunteers and people with information on the organization, how they organize that, and the tools they have to talk about the organization in the best way. Bill: Funny you should ask. We just worked up some handout cards as old-fashioned as that sounds, a little bigger than a business card. The organization calls them the “Get Involved” cards. On one size is the logo and a truncated, poignant abbreviation of the mission. The back features three ways to get involved. You can go to this website and do this. You can become a volunteer and do this. You can call this number and do this. They give these cards to everyone on staff, their volunteers, and encourage them when you are in the grocery store and your old roommate comes up to talk to you, you give them one of the cards. Something as simple as that. Russell: It's important to have those pieces. Is there a way you have people who have these tools, a simple system for them to keep track of how many people are coming? How do you help them document the effectiveness of these tools? Bill: We haven't done a lot of that. The organizations themselves usually keep a database of how many cards did you hand out, and did you talk about it? Ideally you are getting some address/city/state/zip/phone number/email into your database from that encounter. That's the ideal. When you bump into the old roommate in the grocery store, you ask for a business card or a text so I can keep in touch with you. “I'd like to send some information about XYZ charity.” The ones I know do this on a regular basis have weekly staff meetings and go over contacts. It's the most important thing. You're an ambassador for your charity. It's those contacts. People give to people. I know you think they give to your organization because you do all this good. They give because they know and trust you to carry out that mission. It's all about trust. Hugh: Underlying that is relationship building. I can't tell you how many nonprofits out there get a check and wait until next year to ask for another check. I don't know what the average is, but 70% of most nonprofits get the bulk of their money from donors. There is a large percentage. Bill: Yeah, we really do need to take care of our donors better. We recommend the pyramid where you take your database and have your top donors at the top. At some point, you draw that line where everyone above this level of giving gets the personal visit from the executive director or the personal phone call or the three phone calls a year, whatever that appropriate nurturing touch is. The ones at the bottom get a thank-you card. The top people, your key donors, need to be acknowledged, need to be thanked. They need the recognition. You can't do that with all 3,000 names, but you can do it with the top 50. We recommend that pyramid approach. Hugh: It's the old Pareto principle, the 80/20 rule. 80% of your money comes from 20% of your people. The leader is challenged to be able to spend enough time with too many people. My rule of thumb is what you said. You want to spend individual time with your 20%, but you want to stay in touch with the other 80%. Your program is a good way to do that. Bill: We slice and dice it even further. I'll give you an example. They won't mind me talking about them. It's a local arts nonprofit that does theater and plays. They have a huge donor database. The ones at the very top get the personal visit, the handwritten note, the crème de la crème. The next hunk of several thousand records gets variable data printed communication. Variable data has a salutation, “Dear Sam and Jackie.” This communication flips out pictures of the last show they went to. It's highly personalized because they have scrubbed the data that far down that they trust it and know it's accurate. Variable data personalization works as long as it's accurate. The bottom part of the pyramid gets the “Dear friend of XYZ Theater.” The bottom part of it is not personalized because they simply don't have the resources to scrub their data all the way down and make their salutations are correct and other variable data is accurate. Russell: This is important as far as it's managing your budget. You're getting the most bang for the buck and where a lot of people don't think they have money to spend, they may find that after going through and working with someone like you, they may be able to find where they can actually spend the same dollars and get more bang for the buck. When you're working with an organization, sometimes they have board members or volunteers or different people participating in the process. How important is training for all of these key people? What are some of the most important things for you to cover when you're training them? Bill: Let me do a tangent because something you said reminded me of something. This is back in the early 2000s, 2006/2007, right in there. We had not developed our full-blown three-bit marketing system. We were beginning to gather the data and understand that the rhythmic touching is what's important. I ended up being the chair of a small nonprofit. It was a private school trying to get off the ground in the middle of nowhere, southwest Virginia. We didn't have the money to hire my company. We were struggling. We had about 300 names of donors and potential donors. We had 10 board members. 300 names, 10 board members. What a coincidence. Here's what we did. We wrote the letter. We took it to the board meeting and said, “Okay, Sam, you're on the board. You're responsible for these 30 potential people. You make copies of the letter, sneak them into church, and pay the postage. That's why you're on the board.” We assigned each board member 30 records from that database. As an organization, we didn't spend any money. We leveraged our board. They each had to make a few copies and come up with 30 first-class stamps. We did that rhythmically. We did that appeal mail three times a year. By the third year, what do you know? We could afford to have someone else do all this. That was definitely training board members to get in the trenches. Hugh talks about this all the time. The importance of an energized and dedicated board is, I can't say enough about it. That is so critical to have in a thriving nonprofit. Russell: That it is. It's all about the people who you have, who support you, who are in your organization. Your team is your secret sauce. That's where you grow and prosper and create more impact in the lives of others. Knowing how to reach out to them and what really resonates with them is very important. Having that system and having the tools to get them there. The one thing we haven't really touched on is with donors, you have three phases. You're acquiring them. Then at some point, as they're sticking with you, you want them to grow, and you want them to stay. There are three pieces to that. If you would, talk a bit about some of the best ways to move them through that process. How do you acquire them? What are some key tips for that? What are some things that will help you grow them? What are some of the most important things to keep them sticking with you? Bill: The acquisition part we talked about a bit. The best way is those personal relationships, those personal contacts. The second best way would be doing some data acquisition. You can do it yourself; you don't have to go through a company like mine. Google “how to acquire donors,” and plenty of places will crop up that will sell you names. That is the acquisition part. The rhythm means a lot here. The rhythmic touch is how you keep them and how you make them poised to grow. Usually, it's in the second or third year that you get the first donation from a brand new contact. To do that, you need to do those rhythmic touches. This is not an overnight success thing. This is in it for the long haul. It's rare, not unheard of, but rare for someone to move from a $50-per-cycle level to a $5,000-level without something happening. That something could be they come to an event, they hear a speaker, they get a visit from a board member, they get a visit from an executive director. To get that kind of nurturing increase takes something. It's rare that someone would jump from $40 to $500 or $5,000 through repeated passive asks. I think one of the best, it doesn't fit every nonprofit, is to have that annual luncheon where the board members are assigned to fill tables. When they invite people, they let them know, “We will do a presentation. We will ask to give you some money. You don't have to, but there will be an ask. We'd really love to have you.” You get people in the room and have dynamic speakers. You have some of the people you serve. It depends on what kind of nonprofit you have. You do things that give people a real glimpse into how you make the world a better place. that has been known to move people from the $50 level to the $500 level or $5,000 level. Russell: Well-executed non-ask events are critical, too. Just to let people know, “Hey, we're good stewards of your money.” There's some magic about walking them around where they can see where it is people are actually out there in the trenches doing good work. Speaking to some of the things you can acquire and move these services out of the community so they get a working understanding. That growth piece, getting them and growing them, is your lifetime value of a customer for lack of a better way to put it. That takes time. To grow them, you have to keep them. What are the two most important tools? Bill: There are some simple things you can do. You need to thank them for their gifts. The pyramid, the top ones should get a personal visit or phone call. At the bottom, maybe it's a handwritten thank-you note. More and more of our clients are doing the board pizza party, where they get their board together and some phones. Around dinnertime, they serve the board pizza, and they call the top donors. They do it around dinnertime so a lot of people don't answer the phone. But that's fine. You leave a message. The board member says, “Hey, Dr. Smith. I want to thank you and your wife for your $500 gift to our organization. We really appreciate it. It helps us do this, this, and this.” That donor will remember that. That donor will say, “Hey, a board member called me.” That's a nice little thing to do, and to touch the top donors that way. The ones at the really top, the big players, probably need the thank you from the chair of the board and the executive director. You can hit a lot of those mid donors with a call from a board member. Think about the donations you make. How often do you get a phone call of thanks? Not many. Maybe I'm not donating enough. Russell: It's always good. It's just common courtesy. If you're in a supermarket, someone holds the door. Saying thank you to people is a reflex. But somehow, it seems like from some of the statistics I've seen, it's one of the more common mistakes that people make. They don't take that time to say thank you. What are a couple other really common mistakes that people make that are just quick and easy to fix? Bill: Accurate data is really big. If you say “Dear Sam,” and the name isn't Sam, that's not good. You've got to be very careful with variable data and personalization. Personalization gone awry does more damage than it does good. One thing we've been doing more and more, the post office has gotten better with the deceased persons filter. You try to cut out saying, “Dear John and Sally” when John passed away a year ago. That's an easy mistake to fix. Run the data through the filter. Don't mail to dead people if at all possible. Data cleanliness is a common thing. Not thanking is the biggest thing. You mentioned something earlier. Every touch can't be an ask. It really should be more information only touches than there are ask touches. The top donors should get a report at the end of the year, maybe a few months after. Not a fancy annual report, but a sheet of, “Here's what your donation allowed us to do.” You can do these infographic looks. You can really show people what you've done. We have a client now that has this neat system. They do three newsletters a year. They have an elderly donor base. These are physical newsletters. Because newsletters are more expensive, they've gone to a news postcard. They send out these jumbo postcards three times a year. Short bullet point articles that show their impact. Every one of those short articles, it's just bullet points and headlines. People don't read anymore. There is a link to a website you can go to if you want more information. They do this three times a year. In the fourth quarter, they ask. They push out information on a 3:1 ratio with their ask. We recommend something like that. 2:1, 3:1, something like that, so people don't think, “Good grief. XYZ charity is always asking for money.” It has to be, “Here's the good things we're doing.” Your social media should be that. Your social media personally I don't think should ask for money. I think social media should be, “Look what we're doing. Celebrate with us.” Russell: It would certainly be a place to capture your benefactors, the clients online and talk about what's going on. Some of the sites that the work is being done on, it's almost like the news medium. When someone hears their name mentioned on social media, you get a thousand followers. Whoa, they're talking about me. This thing has 1,000 views and 10,000 followers. “Hey, maybe I need to send them another check. They need to get my good side next time.” Hugh: That's part of the story. Telling a story, you have relationships. There are people who want to be in the picture with a big check. I don't think we think about the amount of stories we need to be telling because we are doing a lot of good work. We don't really tell people. In fact, social media is social. We are supposed to engage. I see all too often, “Buy this. Do that.” And there is no attempt at a relationship. That is what I'm hearing you saying. In our program, we are building relationships. We are maintaining relationships. People give to people. That is the biggest sound bite. People give to people, not to organizations. Bill: I agree. It's all about relationships. It's all about telling your story. That's what relationships are. We as humans are people who have relationships with each other, and we tell stories to each other. It's the way you come home to your spouse and say, “Hey honey.” We love to tell stories. I think social media is great for this. You have these snippets and tell this vignette story of something your nonprofit did or something that you did. It's to build relationships. The best donor is the one that knows you. I keep coming back to this. You have a personal relationship with them. But you do it by stories. We recommend the hard ask appeal letter everyone does in the fall that it start off with just a three- to four-sentence story that is in a nutshell what you do. Then you make your ask. You take it to the next level. “There are so many kids like Johnny.” In the first paragraph, you tell Johnny's story. Stories mean a lot. Russell: You have really critical points in the year. A lot happens toward the end of the year around Giving Tuesday in the back end of the year. Are there some time periods during the course of the year that you believe nonprofits are leaving money on the table? Maybe there are times to reach out that might be more effective than people pay attention to. Bill: That's another great question. It's changing. It used to be I would always tell people to do their main appeal early to mid-November because we were told the stats said the most generous week of the year is the week leading up to Thanksgiving. Everybody is starting to feel festive, but they don't have worries about the credit card bills yet. We've also heard that summer is not a great time to ask because so many people are on vacation and will miss the appeal. I tell you though, people are so connected now. With tax law changes, the end of the year may not be as significant of a time as it has been. We are finding more and more of our clients are doing oddly timed appeals. It's just starting, so they haven't built a rhythm yet. We have clients who are doing a February appeal and a July appeal. Stay tuned. I'll have a better answer in three years when we get some data back on that. I really think that if you talk with your key constituents, talk to your board and staff and key donors, you'll know. You'll know when the appropriate time is to do your ask and your information only. Remember the point about you adjust the scale to fit the budget so you can sustain the rhythm. One thing I meant to mention is it's not just the financial budget. It's the budget of your time. Here is another common mistake. We see it probably most often with social media. You get all excited. You say, “I'm going to write a blog every week.” I'm going to post it out on Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn. I don't know many executive directors who have the time to write a blog every week. If you do, more power to you. Our suggestion will be, Are you really? Let's be realistic about this. Adjust the scale to match the time budget. How much time do you have? Sustain the rhythm. We would counsel you down from once a week to the first Monday every month. If that's too much, if you can't stick with that, then once every month. Hugh: It's the regular rhythm that we heard about earlier, too. Speaking of time, we are almost at the top of the hour. Bill, you get the last word. If you have a thought or tip or challenge to give the audience. This has been a helpful interview. *Sponsor message from SynerVision Leadership Foundation* If you want to talk about how Bill's services look for you, go to Wordsprint.com. The regular mailing to your tribe makes a difference. Bill, Wordsprint.com is one of our main sponsors, so thank you for that. We talk about you often. You're leaving this interview. What is your challenge or parting thought for people? Bill: My parting thought would be it really is all about relationships. The piece of the puzzle that you or a director or a board member or your staff could do to help your organization the most is to work on those relationships and get that relationship into a database so they can get rhythmic touches. If anyone would like to chat with me about this, we do free consultations, no cost, no obligation, at Wordsprint.com. You can send me a message. I can talk in detail about your organization and things that would work for you. Our system of getting the right message to the right people does not mean you have to use us. You can use current partners. You can do it in-house yourself. It's the system that works. The right message to the right people with the right rhythm. Russell: Bill, thanks again for joining us. Thanks for all the support you give us here at SynerVision Leadership. You certainly make us look good. Folks, do yourself a favor, and have a talk with Bill and his team as to how you can grow donors, keep them, and build those relationships using the right tools by getting out there, sending the right message to the right people in the right rhythm. It needs to look good, but that is only 10%. And it will. Make sure you check out our magazine because it's a good-looking magazine. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What are the Secrets to Scaling Your Nonprofit with Lauren Cohen (archive) Global entrepreneur and #1 bestselling author Lauren A. Cohenis an attorney licensed in both the U.S. and Canada. Lauren is an expert concierge immigration and business legal advisor boasting a stellar track record of success. Lauren has first-hand knowledge of the visa process, having herself immigrated from Canada in 2001, and later becoming an American citizen in 2012. In 2008, Lauren started e-Council Inc. an internationally-acclaimed company focused on providing concierge strategic full-service solutions for businesses seeking capital and foreign entrepreneurs seeking access to the U.S. market. In 2017, Lauren established Find My Silver Lining, a 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to helping struggling single moms - and parents in general - to find their silver lining in a crowded world. Continuing in the tradition of sound strategic solutions, ScaleUPCheckUP is Lauren's newest initiative - an online risk assessment checkup tool for growing businesses in ScaleUP mode with the overriding mission of anticipating challenges before they happen. Designed in response to the challenges faced by so many entrepreneurs that simply do not understand the critical importance of proper professional guidance, and/or are afraid that the costs of protection are too high, ScaleUPCheckUP is poised to revolutionize the professional services industry and the way in which collaborative professional services are delivered. For more information go to https://www.scaleupcheckup.com Interview Transcript NPE Lauren Cohen Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. This is Hugh Ballou. My guest today has a fascinating background and a real passion for helping leaders in any kind of organization. We are going to be specific about scale-up check-up and how it is of value to those of us leading charitable organizations. We like to say a “for-purpose” organization. We have for-profit and for-purpose. If you would kindly tell us who is Lauren Cohen, a bit about your background and what led you to doing this particular initiative today. Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange, Lauren. Lauren Cohen: Thank you. I will speak as loudly as I appropriately can without screaming. Hugh, it's a pleasure to be on your show and to know you. I am excited about our opportunities together. I am originally from Canada. I moved here in 2001 and became a citizen in 2012. I was doing immigration law outside the corporate transactional work internationally for seven years. I kept seeing these recurring themes among businesses who were seeking to raise capital and for entrepreneurs and businesses who were looking to come into the country. The recurring theme was they were really focused on sales and marketing and getting coaching and moving up the ladder and making money, but they weren't so focused on getting a strong foundation in place. The reality is that you can't really scale your business or often even stay in business if you don't scale up your business. In response to this recurring theme, I developed this online risk assessment tool which helps companies find their missing pieces, their gaps, and fill the gaps so they can scale up successfully. It is applicable to nonprofits because nonprofits need to scale as much as for-profits. At the end of the day, we're all about making money. It's about where the money goes that is the main difference between a for-profit and a nonprofit. As a social entrepreneur with a social consciousness, I am very focused on helping businesses be able to scale up successfully without hitting all these roadblocks along the way. Not to say that they won't hit any roadblocks, but the roadblocks are going to be a lot more manageable, and they will be able to respond to them more effectively because they will have the right professional team and structure in place to be able to do that. Hugh: Russell, this is Russell Dennis who has jumped on the call. You can tell the difference between us because I have more hair. That's it. Lauren: That's the only difference I see. Hugh: Russell, you guys got snow out there in Colorado, didn't you? Russell Dennis: A little bit. We got a little bit out here. It wasn't a great deal, more in the mountains, about an inch or two here in Aurora. Hugh: Lauren is jealous. She is in the Fort Lauderdale area, and she didn't get any snow. Lauren: I think I mentioned I'm originally from Canada. I grew up in Toronto, and I definitely know snow. I have a lot of good friends living in Colorado, including in the cannabis industry and outside of the cannabis industry. Hugh: Lauren, tell us a little bit about- You are trained as an attorney. What kind of attorney? Lauren: I am. I have been a corporate and immigration concierge attorney doing international law and handling international people through advisory services for longer than I care to acknowledge. I am licensed both in Canada and the U.S. I have been working with local entrepreneurs all over the world. You name it, I have been there. Europe, Israel, South America, and Canada, and the U.S. even. Mexico. It's been an interesting ride. I have always felt a calling to the entrepreneurial side of my psyche. As much as I love being a lawyer and that training was great, I don't love sitting behind a desk. I love being with people and helping people and making deals happen. The M&A lawyers who are on Wall Street, I am that type of mindset, but with my own clients and having a much more hands-on approach to working with clients and making sure all their moving parts are moving in the right direction. At the end of the day, there are so many different things that entrepreneurs and small business owners have to deal with in nonprofit and for-profit. They just don't know who to trust and who not to trust. I became this trusted advisor on an ongoing basis and decided to turn it into a larger-scale opportunity to help these businesses scale and grow successfully. It's a nice system. I am happy to share all of the steps with you. It's a nice system that helps you get your structure in place as a blueprint to success. It's like a business plan. Hugh: Great. Do you have a volume control on your computer? Lauren: I do, and I have it all the way up. Hugh: That won't help. I will bring you up when I do the edit of this. Let's talk about the word “assessment.” Everybody uses it. I'm not sure any of us have a definitive paragraph or sentence that we can say to describe it. What is an assessment? Why is it important? why is it important especially for nonprofit leaders? Lauren: Our assessment is quite different than a traditional assessment because we are assessing various foundational issues. Do you have your corporate minutes in place? Have you set up your structure properly? Do you perhaps have trademarks? A lot of these nonprofits are sitting on potential trademark or licensing opportunities that they may be overlooking. Did you put a business plan in place? Do you have an exit strategy in place? For nonprofits, an exit strategy is much different because you have to have an exit strategy for an IRS requirement. It's a matter of looking at all the various components of getting your structure in place and making sure your structure is sound so you can scale and grow. What happens, you will agree with me I'm sure, is I find all too often these small business owners, these accidental entrepreneurs, came up with this idea and suddenly grew. They didn't pay any attention. It's like building your dream home on a sinkhole. Suddenly, the sinkhole collapses, and your whole home collapses with it. I am here to make sure that doesn't happen. I am there to help you get your business on a solid foundation and make sure you are not building on a sinkhole before you start spending all this time, money, and effort to scale your business. At the end of the day, you can only scale so far, and it will come crashing down if you don't have that foundation. That could be assessed. We are assessing your foundational infrastructure. We have a customized score report that we provide, and we have an analysis of what that score means and how you can improve your score so your foundation is stronger. We also have a quiz that I'll share with everybody on the call. It's a freebie, a free online quiz that helps you to see initially how committed you are and how committed your business is. Our mindset might be 100%, but our business may not be ready to match our mindset. Russell: A lot of people mistake assessment and evaluation. They look at it as, It's something I have to do to get somebody off my back. It could be the government or a donor. We are doing this because we have to. They talk about some aspects of their work when you ask them how they know you're effective, “Oh, you can't measure this.” How much of that do you see, and how do you address that when people come at you? Hugh: Lauren: If you can tell me the answer to that, I will have the idea that will get me on the front cover of Entrepreneur Magazine, which is where I'm going. It's challenging. What I'm dealing with, and when I go on stage, I am making broccoli great again. It's about that. when I am building the broccoli of your business, it's not the ice cream, it's not the fun stuff, it's not the dollar dollar dollar, but at the end of the day, it really is. Even for a nonprofit, helping you get your structure in place will allow you to get more donor dollars, allow you to have a stronger valuation, allow you to potentially grow your business successfully, and this adds zero's to your bank account. My new messaging is all about show me the money. If you have a strong foundation in place, you will be able to see more money, if it comes from donors, buyers, or both. Certainly a nonprofit can offer for-profit products and services and make money. It's about what happens to that money that separates it from a for-profit business. Hugh: You have a nonprofit yourself? Lauren: I do. Hugh: What's it called? Lauren: It's called Find My Silver Lining. I established it in 2017. Hugh: You used this assessment yourself? Lauren: I did. Hugh: When you talk about this, there is a strong element of enthusiasm and passion. Was part of the inspiration seeing so many people get stuck in the mud or walk in the wall or fall off a cliff? Lauren: I want to say around February of last year, I have been a part of this coaching program. I offered to review some client agreements at no charge as a gift. In doing so, I realized that there were many business owners in that program that didn't have their ducks in a row. Many had been in business for many years. I'm not saying that that's not possible; it's very possible. But once you hit a certain threshold, you're not a mom and pop anymore, so you could be a target, not just for the IRS, but for litigation, potentially bankruptcy. People see opportunities. People want to challenge you. If you have a disgruntled employee, whatever the case is. As soon as you are starting to scale, your target becomes bigger. I kept seeing this. Oh my goodness, these amazing business owners are exposing themselves to risk. There has to be a way to address that risk and provide a solution. Ultimately what I am building is a home advisor for profits and nonprofit business owners to provide a resource of certified, vetted professionals like you guys who can provide a range of services: strategic services like legal, financial, accounting, insurance, business planning, exit strategies, all high-level B2B services that they are just finding on the Internet. Finding these resources on the Internet is like going in the Yellow Pages. We all used them. AAA, so they would get to the front of that section. It's the same as Google Ads. The more you pay, the higher you rank. That is where they will get the most traction. It doesn't mean they're the best. Does it mean they have been vetted? No. Because they are at the highest ranking, you are going to call them first. I am trying to be the antithesis of that. We won't talk about the companies out there who are especially providing legal services that you have no idea what you're getting. I have a client now who applied for a patent in June. They didn't even know what a patent was. There is no guidance. There is nobody holding their hand. What I have been doing for so long—I wrote a book called Finding Your Silver Lining in the Business Immigration Process. Everything is about finding the silver lining. Part of the reason is because to find a silver lining through adversity, my nonprofit is for single moms and single parents to help them find their way through the clouds. It's all about that. In everything you do, if you have somebody to count on, a support system, entrepreneurs and small business owners are often running on empty. We are running on our own. We are isolated. We are trying to have an impact. It's very hard to have an impact without the support and trusted advisors around you, so that is what I am building. Hugh: You're an attorney. You look at things differently than an ordinary person. You look at it as part of a risk assessment. Lauren: That's a good way of characterizing it, yes. Hugh: You've seen people get in trouble unnecessarily. Lauren: Absolutely. Hugh: You're looking at the holes. We're looking at the donut; you're looking at the hole. You see the silver lining, but you realize there are some holes. You're talking about a corporation, be it for-profit or nonprofit, and that corporation is a liability shield. Without the right documents in place, people can sue you and come for you personally if they can pierce that corporate veil. Lauren: Very big deal. People don't realize that. They think if they have a company, they're protected, and they're not because people can come for you personally. That is another dimension of the problem. Hugh: The compliance piece- recording your contracts, putting them in the corporate record book. Any agreements or expenditures. It's about liability protection. It's also about, you mentioned empower donors. Russell, it would occur to me we don't always protect ourselves from audits, but it would make us audit-worthy if you had your records filed. What are you hearing here, Russ? Russell: For me, the first step to building a high-performance nonprofit is having that solid foundation. There are a lot of things that go in there. If you don't have the right legal protection or the right structure, moving forward, you have to have the right structure. For nonprofits, succession planning is critical, too. Lauren: Big deal. Russell: Moreso maybe than exit planning. Everybody plans to operate in perpetuity. That doesn't always happen. But to have a succession plan so that you know how things are going to flow, no matter who is in the building at any given time, that structure sets a nonprofit up for success. Mitigating risks. I don't think a lot of nonprofits think about risks, but risk is there. You have natural risks. You have legal risks just like any other entity. The thing that came to mind was a question because you deal with this so much on the structural side. We talk about it in terms of strategy, but we defer to legal experts, accounting experts, experts who have that critical knowledge in their field that will keep us in compliance and keep us operating correctly. When it comes to scaling, I know a lot of times growth comes out of nowhere. You catch fire. You go viral. All of a sudden, you have all of this money and donors and people approaching you. When it comes to being prepared in this, what would you say is the biggest gap that you see nonprofits have? What is the most common mistake they make when they are that point in time? Hugh: Lauren: It's common for both nonprofits and for-profits although nonprofits are more guilty of this. Nonprofits think that because they have this designation, they are immune from challenge, or they are litigation-proof, or something along those lines. That just isn't true. Nobody will come after us; we are a charitable organization; we have a 501(c)3 designation. Whatever the case is. Why would they come after us? We don't have deep pockets. Really? A lot of them have deeper pockets because of the fact that they can distribute the income to their shareholders or the dividends or whatever. As a result, there is a lot of nonprofits out there that are extraordinarily successful. United Way, Red Cross, Jewish Federation. There is a huge amount of donors, very large businesses. There is a colleague of mine in this coaching program who runs a nonprofit. He came to the coaching program, and he was looking to raise $2 million. That was his goal for the year. He ended up raising $20 million because he created this licensing program and sold it to other nonprofits, which is amazing. That is where there is an opportunity. It's not just about assessing legal risk or legal vulnerability. It's also about the opportunity that this presents to you. I was talking about trademarks, and a lot of nonprofits have access to trademarks but don't know about them. In my report, I talk not only about risk, but also about hidden fortune. There is a lot of possible fortunes that these businessowners or executive directors might be sitting on that they could be making a great deal of money giving back to the community and making an even broader impact. I think that is where that missing link is. They don't think about a nonprofit as a business. They think about it as a charity. A lot of lawyers are guilty of this, too. Lawyers and service providers. Lawyers run their business as fee for service. I have developed this professional resource success plan, which outlines all the professionals that are needed to fill all the gaps in your armor and to potentially help you to scale and grow. We talk about mindset and coaching and opportunity and where do you want to go and your exit or your business succession plan. You're right. Every business needs a succession plan, whether it's an exit or a legacy. No matter what, in order to be successful, in order for a for-profit business to be successful at due diligence or a nonprofit to be successful in their succession planning, they need that structure in place. they are just not paying attention it. They are coasting along, thinking about how much donor money they can get this year, and are they meeting your budget, and are their donors happy. This is all great stuff. But think about the potential of greater impact if you are able to get those pieces in place and make that difference. It's like night and day. For both of you, once we have the opportunity to work through this with some of your client base, you can see how much of a difference it makes. They are coming out exposed, and then they are going back in and getting their hair done and makeup. Now they are ready to show themselves to the public. You are not getting too much hair done over there, Russell. It is a completely different mindset. I hear a lot of entrepreneurs work in their pajamas. I can barely work sweatpants even if I am working from home because that is not the mindset I want. I want to be in work mode no matter where I am. It's important. I think it's the same for for-profit business owners who are running a sole proprietor. They are not looking at it as a business; they are looking at it as a hobby. Until you make that transition, and look at it as a business, you're going to stay at a certain plateau. You may scale; you may make money. But at a certain point, you're eventually going to collapse. Russell: As you talk about that, one of the things that comes to mind when you talk about opportunities and other things businesses have access to, a business revenue comes to mind. Opportunities for mission-based revenue. You also have unrelated business income, as far as, it's money that's possibly left on the table because people don't think about bringing a valuable service. When it comes to revenue generation and protecting your intellectual property is important, it should separately be maintained and protected. Everything should be walled off. There is another discussion. When it comes to revenue, whether it's business-related or unrelated, when you see organizations that have one or both, what are some of the biggest pitfalls you see them fall into? Lauren: One of the things is that there is a limitation, but you still have to stay true. If you are a nonprofit and are providing for-profit services and products, you still have to stay true to your mission. If you start making millions of dollars and use it as a sham, so you can pass through income at a tax-free rate, or through a nonprofit to get the benefits of that, or raise money to do advertising, that is where the problems happen. The separation needs to be clean. If you start paying an executive director, suddenly they get a 100% salary increase, where is the money coming from? Where is the money going to? Are you circumventing the rule of putting the money back into the directors' pockets? That is where the problems happen. There is also an issue of fiscal sponsorship, as I'm sure you're familiar with, and renting your nonprofit to another entity. There are ways to do it that are legal and kosher, as long as you follow the rules. But if you are just using your nonprofit as a sham or as a front for what you're really trying to accomplish or for your for-profit business, you will lose your designation. It's as simple as that. Russell: It's important to put your structure. You have to have a separate structure, especially for unrelated, but also business income, and mission-based revenue. You have to make sure the vast majority of those funds are going into your programs and operation of your nonprofit to keep from creating a tax event. Unrelated business income, you file separate returns. You pay taxes on that the way you do with others. What happens is people can get distracted. People who approach a nonprofit can get confused. Do you find that nonprofits that are successful with generating large amounts of mission-based revenue, or maybe a substantial amount, a good percentage of the revenue they generate, do you find that they have difficulty getting donors because they see, “Well, they are making plenty of money. I don't need to write them a check.”? Lauren: It's definitely a challenge. However, it depends on your mission and how impactful it is and how broad it is. I think that what happens with some nonprofits, and this is what should happen, is as they become more successful financially, their mission expands beyond their original intended scope, demographically or in terms of the people they are helping. There is room for that within the IRS code. As long as that happens, I don't see it as a problem. But as soon as that is not happening, or once there is a compromise in that, it does create challenges. Russell: The key is to structure and make sure everything is compartmentalized and appropriately reported. It's about the systems you have in place. In order to scale, you have to have really good strong systems. What are the ones that you think are essential for them to have first? If you had to set systems up in a specific sequence for nonprofits, what would that be? Lauren: Operating systems are critical for any business; I don't care what business you are. You have to have an operating system for everything that happens from the time you answer the phone to the time you deliver the service until after that, all the way through, for the life of that relationship. You have to have a system in place for every single touchpoint with the prospective donor, with the donor, with following up with the donor, with if the donor moves. You have to have operating systems for all of your internal processes. They should be externally driven, one for your outbound touchpoints and one for your inbound stuff. How do your people work with each other? Who is responsible for your bank account? How many people are signing checks? What is the check and balance there? How does that all work? Every single thing should be documented. When I started this, I didn't realize how few businesses have systems. The only systems they have are the ones they pulled offline. That is the exception, not the rule. This is true of legal documents too because everyone goes online and pulls documents from there. It's like filling out the 1023, the IRS 501(c)3 application. Oh, this is easy. I can do this. It's just some forms. If that were true, there wouldn't be all these businesses doing that. It's very complicated. Even the 1023 form should not be done on your own. You need to make sure you are following the rules, and whatever you put in there is going to be systematized within your organization. What happens if the executive director quits someday? I'm sure this has happened to your clients. Uh oh, now what? One of my messages is about dealing with the Uh oh, now what? You don't want to wake up in the morning and say, What is going to happen today? I cannot imagine going to work today. Steve is doing this, and Joe is doing that, and Nina is doing this. Nobody is talking to anybody. We don't have group meetings. Things are falling apart. The donors are frustrated. They don't know what is going on. They are going to move their money elsewhere because they don't know if they are getting their donation receipt. It's a mess. One thing leads to another leads to another. I wish it was as true for the good things. The messy things have a more quick and efficient domino effect. Russell: This is true. We call them internal controls, what you talk about, for the IRS. How do you control who handles what? What is your record-keeping like? That gives you the scope of any audit you do. The scope is based on several things. One is the corporate records. I know you mentioned that. I'd like to ask you to speak to that. As an auditor, when I walked into a corporation, I wanted the internal control polices. The corporate minute book was the first thing I reviewed. Lauren: Was this on the for-profit side? Russell: The for-profit side, yes. Lauren: It's similar. When you submit for a nonprofit designation, you submit all these bylaws, including a conflict bylaw. I can't remember the title. Russell: Conflict of interest policy. Lauren: My brain went dead. This is so big in the nonprofit world. It's almost like insider trading in the for-profit world. If you have created a bylaw and implemented it and approved it and ratified it, and it's part of your corporate record-book, and you don't adhere to it, it's as good as throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks. This can put you in more harm than not having it in the first place. You're purposefully going around what you implemented. That's not cool. Your minute book depends on your state because some minute books, Delaware is strict on their minute book requirements and updates. Florida is less strict. The nonprofit requirements are different. But you need to follow your policies. Your bylaw policy said, We are going to have a board of directors meeting once a quarter. You need to have it and put it in the minute book once a quarter. I will tell you something that you probably don't know, and I shouldn't say it out loud. If there are businesses out there that want help with their minute books, we can fix them after the fact as long as it's before the auditor comes in. You just have to get everything up to date and in place. That's important. You can't fudge it, but it's okay to do it after the minute you're supposed to do it as long as you get it done. Let's get together. Call us, and we can get it done with you so that we can make sure you won't have a problem if the IRS or any other entity shows up at your door. Today, they're not coming so fast because they're still unfortunately on shutdown. Russell: The greater likelihood over the few years is a state regulator will walk in your office because of the reduction, and the money has been moved out of regulation. That's another discussion. It's true with the 1023. There are certain things you represent that you're going to do. What the auditors do is they look at your books and bylaws: Are you doing what you say you're going to do? I know there are laws out there. But we go by what you say that you are going to do. That is a huge portion of what an auditor would look at as to determine if you are on track, if you are in compliance. Are you doing what you say you're going to do? These are important to put on the table. With good systems in place, and it takes a little time to do this, the operation smooths out. Am I on track with that? Lauren: Hopefully. It's just like anything. You could have paper in a book or online. Then it's a matter of implementing and enforcing. Unfortunately, we're all guilty of creating a policy where the consequences are not consistent. Like my child. They're not consistent, so his behavior is not good from time to time. It's my fault because I am not consistent in enforcing a consequence. Same with a minute book. It's the same concept. A lot of people, just like setting up a nonprofit and using it as a sham, put thing into place to cover their you-know-whats. That's it. It sits on the shelf. They do it to be in compliance. If they are not honoring it and adhering to it, whatever operating system or control you have, it won't matter. You can't suddenly say, “I can't have a policy for it.” If you haven't enforced it in the past three years, and the person has been doing whatever they have been doing, or their brother has been sending them money, I am far-fetched here. The reality is there is a lot of this that goes on. As more for-profit businesses set up nonprofit entities, this is an ongoing problem. I think it's all a matter of training. If your people are not trained properly on what your policies mean, it's only a piece of paper. You need to have the policy, create the manual, create the operating policies, create the training, train your people, get them to buy in, have them involved, and have consequences for noncompliance. It's a range of things that need to happen. Have a third party designated to oversee that process so it doesn't fall on the executive director. Hugh: Absolutely. That's why you have board members and advisors. They really have fiduciary and governance oversight. Let's go back to this assessment. It sounds painful and expensive. What's involved? If I wanted to go through the process and take this assessment, what's involved in doing it? What do I get from that? Does it help me figure out how to do all this? It sounds scary right now. Lauren: We don't let it be scary. I am the non-scary lawyer. I have a free quiz. It's not specifically oriented to the nonprofit world yet; we are developing one now. I'll be happy to share it with your listeners. It's ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz.online. You can take that quiz; it's about 2 minutes. We can set up a quick call to discuss your needs. The assessment is $47. I can share a $20 coupon code that makes it $27. It's a customized score that highlights your issues and lets you know how at risk you are. It gives you access to my calendar for a quick call. The assessment and a strategy session is only $197. That gives you time to go through the assessment results and talk about how they could be improved. How can you improve your score so your bottom in is better? Our big deliverable item. The regular price is $997. However, Hugh, you, I, and Russell can talk about a special delivery product for the nonprofit world and can get a coupon code. I don't want to charge that much for people in the nonprofit world. It's a blueprint that shows you everything you need to scale up your business successfully. Then we create a strategy based on your budget and priorities. If your priority is to get a business plan in place because you want to build a facility, that's what we will focus on first. That will come out of this analysis and deep dive we do for you. Hugh: That sounds interesting. The quiz, anybody can take that. We try to convince those that are running a nonprofit, which is a bad word, it's a misnomer. Those who are in a tax-exempt enterprise, a for-purpose organization, they are really, there is a high level, it's critical that we establish sound business principles. If you have an organization, you should run it responsibly. It's good stewardship, if nothing else. The quiz, we could evaluate it as a tax-exempt business. It's ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz- Lauren: ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz.online. Hugh: That gives them the free quiz. You fill something, and you have a chance to interpret it. Then the assessment could be available through SynerVision Leadership Foundation for people who want to find out how much trouble they are in. Then there is a prescriptive; this is what you do about it. Lauren: Not exactly. The prescriptive is more detailed in the success plan. The assessment, if they do it with the strategy session, we will give them some ideas and tips on how to improve the score. It's the success plan that will give you a blueprint of everything you should do to make your structure more sound so you can accomplish your goals. Hugh: Your basic website is ScaleUpCheckUp.com. There is everything about the products there. There is a toll-free number to contact you. You have this purple branding that is quite elegant. Lauren: I've always been into purple. My existing brand is purple. For as long as I've had a brand, I've had purple. Hugh: That's on your site. People can go to ScaleUpCheckUp.com and can learn about you. What have we not asked you that people need to know about this whole line of risk mitigation? Lauren: The real question is: So what if I don't do it? So what if I don't get my stuff in place? What happens? How do I get caught? What's the risk? There is a huge risk. As Russell knows, having been an auditor, you risk not only for the nonprofit organization losing your designation, piercing the corporate veil, which means they go beyond the business and to you personally. You can lose your own personal assets. You put your family at risk. These are serious issues that people just don't want to deal with. They want to deal with numbers and money. Numbers and money, this will get you more numbers and money than any sale is going to ever get you. Your sale will be stopped dead in its tracks. All that time and effort on that sale will be wasted because you haven't done what you needed to do. When you want to create a strategic partnership or synergy, for example, you and I, with SynerVision, if we have a joint venture or strategic partnership, we both want to make sure we both did certain due diligence, with the compliance checks. We have our business in place. Our licenses are kosher. Everything is right and in place. Otherwise, I don't want to do business with you, and you don't want to do business with me. They could have a multi-million-dollar prospect on the table. I had a client I was working with for a short time. They were about to enter into this multi-million-dollar deal, a very big name. Big. Big. One of the biggest. I'm trying to see Russell's face. I think he's smiling. I'm willing, they didn't have their minute book records in place. For three years, they didn't have a single document. Because this company is so big and successful, they wanted to see that all their I's were dotted and T's were crossed. Do you know this company would not pay me to get their records updated? It was $5,000 or something like that. It was nothing. They didn't want to deal with it. They lost the deal. Multi-million-dollars. It was too late because they could have had it done, and they would have been at the table. This is what happens. You lose your seat at the table. You will have someone come after you and sue you, whether it's a disgruntled employee or the IRS. You won't have access to potential huge opportunities with your intellectual property. You are putting yourself at risk every which way and losing out on opportunities to make a fortune. So let's have a conversation and see how we can help you scale your business successfully and not violate your 501(c)3 designation or your company bylaws. I think there is a lot of for-profit corporations that are purposeful. It's all confusing, right? I try to have a purpose and make an impact, even though I have a for-profit company. There are so many ways we can create opportunity for you as a company and business owner to scale successfully. It's silly to throw that opportunity away because of fear of the unknown. Hugh: Yes, it is. This is a huge inventory of important things that people don't know to ask about. Russell, before we do our closing sequence, do you have another issue we need to bring before this lady? Russell: I was thinking about a point you made earlier that is worth emphasizing again. There are a lot of tools out there. People find templates and guides to build contracts and agreements with. Nothing wrong with them. The problem is people don't have them reviewed by someone who has the knowledge necessary to make sure everything is in there to protect yourself. Just grabbing something. The other thing people don't do is read the fine print in their own contract. They create something that they are going to adhere to. If they look at it with the eyes of, This will protect us from other people, they may not be protecting themselves from themselves by clarifying what they are agreeing to do. How common is it that you see people with these boilerplate templates? How can they get them reviewed? They definitely need to do that. Is it something that will break the bank? I think that's what stops a lot of people from doing that. Lauren: Thank you for asking that question. One signature speech of mine is “7 Secret Scale-Up Success Strategies.” One of the secrets is: Don't download a boilerplate template without getting it reviewed. There are multiple reasons to have it reviewed, some of which you addressed. Also, they could name the wrong parties. They could pull the wrong template. It could be perfect, but for another situation. They may think they need X, and they may need Y. It could be covered with legalese that no one understands, including lawyers. I wrote an agreement last week for a nonprofit for a lawyer. I was working with this lawyer. I want it to be two pages. This was a lawyer who was telling another lawyer that this agreement should be two pages. I can make it four. I'm laughing. I saw him last night and was like, “Two pages?” We are trying to condense things and make them concise because you get lost in it. I can't give you a flat fee, but we do have packages that include a range of services, including reviewing up to five agreements of up to 10 pages each. We have them on monthly packages, semi-annual packages, and annual packages. You need to grab one of those. Not go to those online services, but have someone you can trust and contact and text, a live person, who can help you look at those agreements and see what's missing or not. What's missing is almost as bad or often worse than what's not missing. You won't catch everything. No lawyer will catch everything because I don't know exactly what every single business owner wants to accomplish. But if you don't have it reviewed, you may as well jump in the ocean without a life preserver. Hugh: This is helpful information, Lauren. Thank you. *Sponsor message from SynerVision Leadership Foundation* What I'm taking away from Lauren's interview today is there are things about enterprises that we don't even know we're supposed to know. Lauren, what thought do you want to leave people with?   Lauren: Think about your nonprofit or for-purpose business as a business. Take it seriously. It deserves your attention. It deserves the attention of professionals. Don't be everything to your organization. Bring in the professionals that you can trust to accomplish the goals you need. I am available to speak with any of you about how to scale up your nonprofit. I look forward to working with you, Hugh and Russell, and collaborating with you further. Don't take the risk of losing all that you've built because you're afraid to make a phone call or send an email. Russell: This has been an enlightening and uplifting conversation. Here at SynerVision Leadership, we have all sorts of people like Lauren that are here. Come join the community and have a chance to plug into conversations with people so you are not doing things by yourself. We are the source for all things nonprofit. If we don't have the answers, we know people like Lauren who do.     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kids, Business, Marriage – how do you do all the things? Get a glimpse during the last of this 3 part series on how to raise an entrepreneurial family! On today’s super special episode, part three of three, Russell and his lovely wife, Collette are interviewed by Joshua and Ashley Latimer about being an entrepreneurial family. Here are the questions Russell and Collette answer in part three: What ways do you teach your kids about entrepreneurship and finances? What advice would you give a highly driven entrepreneurial family? How important is it to have a like minded community? So listen here to Russell and Collette as they answer these important questions. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Are you guys pumped for today? This is segment number 3 of 3 of my interview, of the interview with my wife, Collette. If you haven’t yet, make sure you go to Honorandfire.com, and opt into the Latimer’s and get their free family checklist system that they posted. It’s a free family checklist for entrepreneurial families. And it’s amazing. What they’re doing is so cool, and I’m so grateful for this interview and that they created a really safe spot for my wife to be able to share her thoughts and her feelings. And I hope you guys are loving her even 1/10th as much as I love her, because she is such an amazing person, and I’m so grateful to have her being able to share some of our experiences with you. Alright with that said, we’re going to jump in right now to segment number 3 of 3, and these are the last 3 questions they asked us. Question number 8: What ways do you teach your kids about entrepreneurship and finances? Question 9: What advice would you give a highly driven entrepreneurial family? And question 10: How important is it to have a like minded community? So those are the next questions. I hope you guys enjoyed the series. If you have enjoyed it, please, please, please go to, again take a screen shot on your phone or wherever you are, post it on Facebook, Instagram, social media wherever you post, and please tag me and tell me why you like this segment of this session. I’d love to hear some of the thoughts and the feelings about why you guys enjoyed this time with my wife. And maybe if you guys do, let us know, maybe we’ll do this more often, have her come on and share some more stuff. So excited. With that said, let’s queue up the theme song and we’ll jump into the exciting conclusion of my interview with the Latimer family and my beautiful wife, Collette. Ashley: How do you teach your children about entrepreneurship, and what ways will this give them an unfair advantage in life? Russell: I think … Collette: go ahead. Russell: One of the cool things that we did was a little, about two years ago we had Caleb Maddox and Emily come out, two young entrepreneurs, and spend the day with our kids, which was really cool.  They kind of talked to them about it, got them excited about it. And then Caleb and his dad, Caleb’s dad told us that what he did is he gave Caleb these success books and said, ‘I’ll pay you $20 for every book you read.” And I thought that was the coolest thing, so we started doing that with the kids. Some kids are more money motivated than others, but man, they’ve read tons of success books now on success. The Rich Dad Poor Dad for Teenagers, Success Dogs, Dallin’s read both of my books which is crazy. He’s like, ‘I don’t understand most of the things dad, but I read them.” Collette: Well and actually Aiden, he’s out, he’ll be 9 in august, but he’s been putting little mp3 player plugs in his ears and walking around and listening. So I think that’s cool. Russell: Yeah, so that’s been big. We brought them to one Funnel Hacking Live, but they were young and it was crazy and it was kind of hard. But this year, I think you know this, we’re doing a new event this summer specifically for kids so I can bring my kids to it. So it’s going to be really fun to kind of get them into that kind of thing. And then the other thing I really want to do, we haven’t discussed this, but I had a friend, her name is Rae Perry, used to run these home schooling programs, and she would do these events where she would have the home schooled parents and kids would come, they’d have speakers on each topic. So one of them would talk stock market, one of them would real estate, one would be internet marketing, one would be eBay, all these different things. And everyone would sell their courses, and then they’d have the kids each go and buy a course each event, and that’d become their curriculum to learn. I’m going to learn about stocks, and they’d go deep the next year on stocks, or on real estate, or whatever their thing was. So I kind of want to have our kids pick things like that in the summer, in fact, this is actually something, I forgot about this, we had this on our family night on Sunday. We’re trying to figure out, Summer is coming soon and we don’t want the kids all summer on their screens, right. So first we’re like, “We’re going to do a screen free summer, no screens all summer.” They were all just like, “Ahh.” Collette: So was I. Russell: Then Collette’s like, “Well what are we going to do with them all day? You’re going to be at work, this sounds horrible for everybody.” So okay, let’s rethink this. And then when we were in Puerto Rico hanging out with Brendon Burchard he said something really interesting. He said, because we were talking about social media and one guy there was like, “I don’t do social media, it’s a waste of time.” And Brendon’s like, “No, you don’t understand I’m not a consumer of social media, I’m not consuming it, I’m producing it. There’s a difference. As a producer I go and I produce something and I’m done, and it’s helping other people. But I’m not sitting there consuming other people’s things.” And that was the aha with our kids. Right now they’re consumers, they sit there and watch some stupid guy with blue hair play video games for 4 hours, watching somebody else produce, they’re consuming. And I was like, “I don’t want you guys being consumers. You don’t value, the world is not better if you’re a consumer, you need to be producers.” So we talked about, with them we talked about starting a YouTube channel and then each of them gets their own playlist. And we say, “Every morning wake up and…” Ellie’s our daughter who’s obsessed with the craft channel. “Wake up, go watch the craft channel, figure out what craft you want to make, then drive to the store, buy the stuff, come back, have you and your brothers film it, make the craft, then edit it. And you’re allowed to use as much screen time as you want, as you’re producing. You’ve produced a video that you published live, and now you’ve produced something.” So our whole thought is you can only use screen time during the summer to produce, not to consume. And then I thought it would be fun for them, there’s the email skill share, and all these different sites. I’m like pick out a skill that you want to learn, go learn it and then you can make videos of you teaching it back to people. So that’s kind of the goal, helping them be producers this summer instead of just consumers. Ashley: I love that. Joshua: That is gold. That is gold. Can I squeak in a mini follow up question to that though? Russell: Yeah. Like if we’ll execute on it. I don’t know. Joshua: I just want to make sure, respecting your time that we’re just moving along and everything, but this is so amazing. So what’s your philosophy just on finance with your kids and stuff? Okay because you’ve been broke and you’ve had lots of money, and you’re wealthy. Are your kids aware of it, is that something that you talk about? Is the business just your front stage, internet marketing stuff, or in the home are you talking about, “Here’s what we’re trying to do, we’re trying to go to a billion dollars. And we’ve got to restructure our org chart and our model.” Is any of that happening or is it just dad-Russell all the time. And there’s not a wrong answer, I just think people would be curious. And then when it comes to money, do you give them an allowance, do you teach them that they only get paid for value creation, do you buy them a car when they turn 16, do they have to buy it? How does that all work for you guys? Russell: The first part of the question, I have not been good at that, bringing them into what I’m doing more. A lot of times we’ll show them funnel hacker tv episodes and we’ll talk about a couple people we’re meeting, so they see a little bit of that. But we haven’t talked about the finances or the goals. That’s actually really interesting, I’m glad you brought that up just to think about. And on the other side, we don’t do allowances, they can work for money. We had them pull weeds for money, we had them read books for money. Collette: That’s allowance, well, I guess for money. Yeah. Russell: Allowance is like guaranteed, “Here’s money because you’re alive.” Collette: Oh. Joshua: Allowance, true allowance is like just pure socialism. You have a pulse, here’s some money.  {inaudible} Russell: It’s funny because some of our kids are super money motivated, and some aren’t. Dallin and Ellie both like money. Ellie will do something, or like, if she scores a goal in soccer we give her a dollar. So she’ll do stuff. And she’s a consumer. She spends it. She’ll make money and then she drives to the juice place and buys juice 5 seconds later. Collette: Drives her bike. She drives…she does not drive. Russell: Rides, yeah. Collette: She gets there. Joshua: Well, you know what we started doing? Our kids love to play games, Fortnite and all that, watch YouTube and stuff but they can only do it now by spending points. So what they do, when they take out the trash and do stuff, we have a little app that we built for my company called automate motivate, it’s actually for businesses, but we use it with our kids. Ashley: Or employees. Joshua: They get points since they’re doing stuff, but they can only play game time when they cash in their points for an hour block of game time. And it’s been a complete ridiculous success. Every day when they come home they’re just like, “What can I do, I wanna…” and then they do it, and they can earn 30 minutes of game time. It’s kind of game-ified that, but it’s not money directly. But there’s different things, they get game time, or they can go to the movies with mom or something. Ashley: It’s been interesting, some of our kids want to buy game time, and then the other one is like, “What can I buy on Amazon right now?” He wants, it burns a hole in his pocket, he would ride his bike to the store if a store was near us. We live in the middle of nowhere. Joshua: Well, that was great. Thank you for all of that, so much awesomeness. Question 9 is kind of for other people. What advice would you give a highly driven entrepreneurial family, and what advice would you give their spouse? So sometimes the man is the entrepreneur, sometimes the woman is, sometimes they both are, oftentimes one is not entrepreneurial, and one is a maniac, what advice would you say to that young couple that’s about to go down this crazy up and down, they don’t even know if they’re going to have to fire 80 employees in one day, 5 years from where they’re starting. Russell: {inaudible} Joshua: What would you say to them? Russell: I’d say on my side, I always think, I always tell people, you can only be as successful as your spouse will allow you to be. And I’m so, I look at everyone else I ever dated before, people I knew, if I didn’t marry Collette, there’s no way we could have got  here. It’s just not possible. And I think I’m so grateful for her, how much grace she’s given me during the times of like, the hard times, or the low times, or the times I didn’t produce, or times I didn’t show up right. It’s so easy to hold judgments and to hold grudges and to hold things like that, and she’s never been that way. There might be something we get in an argument about, but then it’s gone and she forgives, and it doesn’t keep lingering and lingering. I think a lot of times you see that in a relationship, it lingers and lingers to the point where it just breaks. And she’s never been that way. It’s just kind of like, I don’t know, she gives me, I guess grace is the word in my head, just forgiveness of like, I understand that you’re doing stuff, that doesn’t make sense. It’s not normal, but I still love you so it’s okay. Collette: Oh, it’s so hard because that question all the time, like at Funnel Hacking or when people do run into us like, ‘Give me some advice, tell me what to do.” I’ve had a couple of women just in tears, “how do I support my husband.” And it can go both ways. And it really made me think, because I’m like, “How did I allow Russell to live this dream? How did I allow him to move forward without me cracking?” But the truth is I did crack. You know, you go through all the things and I mean, we weren’t rich right out the gate. So we had a little family, worked hard for all that you had. You see and like, I want him to live his dream, I don’t want him to be miserable with this life, so it’s kind of, everybody is so different. Advice to me is hard because everybody is a different personality, but I would just say, communication. Because I just learned that I would tell my younger self that as well, communicate. And the other thing is do something for yourself. So the advice to a highly driven, for instance, he’s the dreamer. He’s always like, “What’s your dream?” and I’m like, ‘I really don’t know. Keep everybody alive, keep up the house, to be this mom.” But to do something for yourself, go out with your girlfriends and breathe, and communicate that with your husband, or your significant other. Take some time for yourself because otherwise you’ll crack. And I did crack a lot. I learned the hard way. But also, podcasting, all these great, amazing tools that we have today, I would tell people that are out in this world to listen to all the positive things to get through these moments. How to deal with a dreamer. I don’t know. Joshua: That was an amazing answer. Ashley: That was like a mic drop. Joshua: I’m pretty sure you know. That was perfect. Ashley: I think so too, that was amazing. Collette: There’s always tears, and there’s always a little something, that’s just human nature. But we’re not perfect. Joshua: Have you ever felt pressure to act like that’s not the case? I mean, things are weird at home, you’re a public figure, because you made yourself internet famous. But you know what I mean? Is there, what’s that like? Collette: What is that like? Why am I stumbling? Russell: I think sometimes you feel, I mean for sure you feel the pressure. It’s funny too because people are like, “how are you always happy?” because I’m happy when I’m clicking, “Hey! How’s it going guys!” and then it’s back down and you’re like back to the fight. You want to see what’s actually happening here, we’re really upset right now or whatever. But it’s interesting because I think a lot of times you feel like you have to keep that posture. Because the fascinating thing is the times that I don’t, the times I break posture and I’m more vulnerable with frustration or things like that, that’s when I feel like, that’s when people actually connect with me more. It’s funny, Natalie Hodson I was talking with her yesterday, she did an instagram or something like, “You guys think I’m a nice, cool, calm, collected mom, I just screamed at my kids for 30 minutes, I threatened to throw the TV over, I’m a horrible mom.” All these things, she’s like bawling her eyes out and everything. And she told me she had 351 DMs from that one thing, she said, “I’ve never had that before.” That’s what draws people in. And I think that, you know I feel like we tried you know, I don’t know, I think there’s always some of that, but I’ve tried to be more like, things are tough sometimes. I remember at the very first wrestling practice with the kids out in the garage, I did a whole podcast about like, ‘Man, that sucked.’ I want to record this now so someday I can have my kids remember the first practice, how horrible it was, how mean they were, how they just let, just try to share more of the pain part, because people actually resonate with that way more than the posture. Joshua: People crave authenticity. But now Russell’s going to choreograph fights so that he can make great content. Collette: Ha, ha. Joshua: I’m just kidding. Collette was going to say something, I’m sorry. Collette: Oh no, I 100% agree. I don’t feel like, well sometimes maybe, I’m like we get dressed up a certain way, that’s when people come up I’m like, ‘ugh. I don’t have makeup on.” But who cares, whatever. Seriously, we’re all people. Joshua: Totes. Collette: Yeah, yeah. Ashley: We never do that ever. Russell: Sure you don’t. Ashley: He did that last time. Joshua: I did that, we just talked to Alison Prince and her husband and I don’t know where it came from it just came out. Ashley: And he did it twice in that interview. He’s not allowed to do that. Don’t do that. Joshua: It just felt right. Collette: That’s hilarious, I love it. Russell: {inaudible} Ashley: It’s not right. It’s not. Okay, last question, how important is having a like minded community as an entrepreneurial family? Joshua: Like, we want to assemble all these people that care about crushing two comma clubs and doing huge things of business, not about money, it’s just who you are, it’s what you are, but equally and more so care about crushing it at home and just connecting with your spouse and being a super parent. How important for those people is it to be in community with other weirdos like that? Russell: I think it’s super important. Yesterday when we were preparing for the interview Collette asked Dallin, our oldest twin, 9 minutes oldest, about what he likes about this thing. And he’s like, “You know I don’t like being wealthy because I have friends at school that make fun of me for being the rich kid.” And for us, it’s like, “ugh” and it’s funny because the kid who said, I specifically know who it was, his dad told me, he’s like, “My kids ask me how come I don’t have my wrestling room at my house? Why can’t I get a job like Russell’s?” So it’s funny because both kids, the opposite direction. But I think it’s important because it’s like, we live differently right. Most people, they wake up in the morning, they go to 9 to 5, they come home, they watch tv, or they drink beer, you know, that’s the majority of the world. And we’re out here trying to change the world and have fun and do other things, and thinking about other people besides just ourselves, and we’re trying to create. And the more they’re around other people trying to do that, the more they’re not embarrassed of it. It’s like, it broke my heart hearing that yesterday because I’m like, if that’s how he feels because he’s embarrassed, we need to get them around more people who are creating. Because you know, when he hangs out with Caleb Maddox that night he’s writing a book because Caleb you know, the more you’re doing that, the more it inspires, the more they’re able to see kind of what’s possible. So I think that’s a big reason why we’re doing the kid event in the summer so they can plug into that. We’re having a couple kid speakers come as well, so they can see, I wan tthem to have their eyes opened to, “Oh my gosh, I can do this too, and this is cool.” And it’s not a bad thing, it’s a super positive thing. Collette: Yeah, I agree. It’s a big deal. I’m like, ugh. I really appreciated getting these questions beforehand because I really did, I was asking my kids the same thing, so it was interesting to get each of their perspectives. But anyway… Joshua: Well, thank you guys so much. We’re actually, part of what we’re working on is this thing that’s called the family war plan. It’s not a journal, we’re not going to call it a journal, because that’s not cool enough, we’re going to call it a war plan. But it’s for families and it has all this crazy stuff. Ashley: it’s an experience. Joshua: If we, I don’t know when they’ll be done or whatever, but if we get them done in time, I want to just give a bunch to Clickfunnels to give to the families that come to the thing with their kids. Collette: Gosh. Joshua: I don’t  know if they’ll be done or not. But it’s so epic and thank you, thank you. Triple thank you, thank you. Ashley: Thank you, and you were fabulous, absolutely fabulous. Russell: Really good, I’m super impressed. So proud of you. Collette: Awe, thank you. Russell: You’re a natural. Collette: I’m not a natural. Russell: We’re starting a podcast together. Joshua: You did a great job. Ashley: Yeah, you did a great job. Joshua: Enjoy, I’m assuming you’re having a day off since you’ve been doing crazy, ridiculous things. Collette: I’m making him go to zumba tonight. Russell: That’s our date night. We’re having some zumba. Collette: There may be some blackmail happening here in the future. Russell: I just found out yesterday that zumba is dancing. I did not know that. Joshua: You’ll just own it and do an instagram. Ashley: It’s like really hard dancing, you don’t stop, you keep going. Russell: I thought  it was like a cardio, like a workout. Collette: I’ve never done it either. Russell: Then Dave told me yesterday that it’s salsa dancing or something. Collette: It’s going to be amazing. That’s our date tonight. Joshua: Congrats too, on your wrestling thing. Russell: Thanks, so much fun. Joshua: {inaudible} thing to do that no one literally does, except for Russell. Collette: Mid life crisis friends. Bring him back to glory days. Joshua: you looked like you were in beast mode though, you were smashing people, dude. Russell: I only showed you guys the highlights, when I was smashing. The two I got smashed in you didn’t see anything from that. Joshua: Did you get wrecked by someone, or was it close. Russell: yeah, I lost 2 matches, I won 5 matches. So when all is said and done it was… Joshua: It’s amazing, and you just started training a few months ago for it, didn’t you? Russell: We had three practices before we went, because I hurt my neck. So it was, it was fun though. We had a great time. Next year, and there’s a kid tournament at the same time, so next year I’m going to bring all the kids and Collette, and we’re going to do a family party. Collette: Yay, a wrestling party. Russell: She thought she outgrew the wrestling. Collette: It’ll be fun. Ashley: Oh my gosh, you might be my new favorite person on the entire planet. I’m a big fan. Joshua: We’ll bring Collette honey too, from our honey bees. I don’t even know if you like honey. Collette: I love honey. Joshua: Okay, we’ll bring it. {Inaudible} the bee and put the honey right in the jar for you. [back and forth inaudible} Collette: Oh my gosh. Russell: I assume that’s how it works. I don’t know. Collette: I don’t know either. Joshua: Alright, thank you Russell. Ashley: Thank you. Russell: Thanks you guys, it was super fun. Collette: Thank you, thank you. All: Bye.

The #1 request I get from our listeners is they want to hear behind the scenes from my wife’s perspective on what it’s like running an entrepreneurial family. On today’s super special episode, part one of three, Russell and his lovely wife, Collette are interviewed by Joshua and Ashley Latimer about what it’s like to be an entrepreneurial family. Here are the questions Russell and Collette answer in part one: What is the best/hardest thing about being an entrepreneur? How is it possible to aggressively pursue business dreams but still have a happy home life? And finally, they talk about one of the hardest times in their life and how they got through it together. So listen here to finally hear Collette give her first interview on what it’s like to be married to Russell. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I am so excited for the next three episodes for you guys. It’s going to be so cool. So the number one request I get by far, from all of you guys, from all of the people listening to the podcast, from all my funnel hackers, every Funnel Hacking Live, at everything, people ask is, “We want to hear from your wife. How in the world does she deal with you as an entrepreneur? How do entrepreneurial families work?” We get so many questions for Collette all the time. And I’m not going to lie, I’m very protective of my beautiful wife. This is not her world, she doesn’t step onstage and speak in front of thousands of people. She doesn’t feel comfortable there. The first couple of years of events, she didn’t even come to them. She stayed at home and supported us, and took care of the family. And it’s just something that I was always kind of nervous introducing her to. And at the very first Funnel Hacking live, I remember she came to it and she said she walked in and she saw the audience and she started bawling, and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea that this is what was actually happening.” She’s like, ‘I was supporting you and doing these things, but I didn’t know the fruits of it.” And it’s fun and every year she comes to Funnel Hacking Live now, and she’s sitting on the front row and she’s like, “I don’t understand half the things you guys are saying, but I just love the energy and the people and the stories.” Anyway, she is my favorite person on this planet and I’m so grateful for her, she’s amazing. I always say you can only be as successful as your spouse will allow you to be. So without her there’s no way that I could have become who I’ve become, and there’s no way that I could have formed this team and built Clickfunnels and all the amazing things that the fruits of all this work we’ve been doing for the last decade and a half would not have been possible without my wife, Collette. So it’s funny because people always want to hear from her and I always just tell them no. But I am very impressed. Some of my friends, the Latimer’s, Josh Latimer joined my inner circle a little while ago, and he played things so well. He came to the very first Funnel Hacking Live, and the first thing he did, he ran up and found my wife Collette, and to kind of put this into perspective, most people when they see me at Funnel Hacking Live or at the airport, or anywhere, they run and push my wife aside, “Russell!” and they don’t even pay attention to her. And that’s how you tell if you failed the test, if you didn’t say hi to my wife and didn’t acknowledge her, you failed the wife. That’s basically it. If you ever want me to call you back or pay attention, how you treat my wife, is how much attention I’ll pay back to you. So it’s kind of funny because people always just brush her aside and just ask me the question. And it’s like, ah, you guys missed it, you missed the most important thing in the world to me, and you didn’t even acknowledge it. And Josh was the opposite way. He, first thing, he ran up to Collette and he’s like, ‘Hey, I’m here to thank you. I know the sacrifice that my wife’s gone through for my business to get here. And I know the sacrifice that you’re going through behind the scenes every single day. Just so grateful for you.” So because of that my wife knew who he was. And because when he asked to do this thing, he’d opened the door and planted the seeds. So reluctantly I finally said yes. He and his wife are working on a really cool project. In fact, it’s not all live yet, but if you go to honorandfire.com, so honorandfire.com, honor and fire, as of right now there’s a family checklist that’s in there, but they’re building a whole system for entrepreneurial families, and what they’re doing is super cool and it’s fun. And I want to share it with you guys. But this interview is part of one of their training courses they have for families. So they allowed me to be able to share it with you guys. So you guys have a chance to hear 10 questions with my wife and I talking about entrepreneurship and families and how it all works together. So this is the very first, we’re going to break this into three episodes. Episode number one, we’re going to cover three questions that they ask. The very first questions is what is the best/hardest thing about being an entrepreneur? Number two is how is it possible to aggressively pursue business dreams but still have a happy home life? And number three, talk about a hard time in your life. So we’re going to share those three questions on this episode, and then when you come back tomorrow, we’ll share with you guys episode number two. So after this is done, pause your phone and go to honorandfire.com, opt in and get the family systems checklist from the Latimer family, and this will help you to grow your family, to be able to have a successful business and a family at the same time. So I want to thank the Latimer family for allowing us to share this interview with you guys, and again, go to honorandfire.com to go opt in. And with that said, we’re going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back, we’re going to listen to the first of three segments of the interview with my beautiful wife, Collette. Joshua: Hey my friends, how the heck are you? I’m so excited that you’re here hanging out with us. You get to look behind the curtain in terms of business and family in a way that I’ve never seen done before. We’re going to ask Collette and Russell Brunson some questions about their family, their culture, their story, and just the raw truth about the good and the bad, and how it’s really hard to grow a business, it’s really hard to be married, it’s hard to be a parent, and you mix it all together and it’s this cocktail of potential destruction. But they’re still there, and it seems like they love each other, I’m pretty sure they love each other. So thank you Russell and Collette for being here. How are you? Russell: Doing amazing. Glad to be here. Collette: Yeah, super excited. Russell: Get my wife on camera for the first time, it’s exciting. Collette: It’s a big deal. Joshua: You’re going to owe Collette big time. We gotta think of something really epic to send her, because I know this is not in your comfort zone. Collette: I’m good. Joshua: It’s going to help so many people, it’s inspiring to them. So without further ado, the first question is an easy one I think. The first question, what is, from your perspective, the best thing and the hardest thing just about being an entrepreneurial family? Because this is a weird lifestyle. What’s the good and the bad from both of your perspectives? Russell: You want to start or you want me to start? Collette: No go ahead, you start it off. Russell: Alright, I’ll start. I think the best part, my belief, all the people we have a chance to serve. That’s why we do Funnel Hacking Live and these events. Now it’s like we’re internet celebrities. At the airport people come to us, a the weirdest spots people run to us and just the consistent theme is “Oh my gosh, you changed my life. You changed my life.” I think that’s the best part. It’s fun to see the kids, the kids will be like, ‘Dad, we got spotted again.” Which is…. We were at the waffle place the other day and some guy came up and was like, ‘Russell Brunson, you changed my life.” The kids are like, “My dad got spotted again.” I think that’s the best part, but he hardest part is like, it’s just hard. I don’t know. It’s hard because it’s like, like you said, there’s three big aspects. There’s the marriage, there’s the kids, and there’s the business, and all of them take a lot of time. We did the love language test with the kids on Sunday, and all except for one of our kids’ love language is quality time. Quality time to go around, we’ve got so many kids, you know. I think the hardest part is sometimes you get caught up in the business side and it’s like, I gotta remember this is what’s actually most important. How do I shift my focus back to them? How do we break away? I think sometimes in business when you’re having success, you get the positive feedback all the time. And then you go home and it’s like, ‘Oh my kids are struggling here.” And it’s harder and you don’t get the immediate positive feedback a lot of times, I think. And it’s just like, okay, but this is the most important part. We gotta go and do it. I think that’s the hardest part sometimes. Collette:  I think the best thing for me, I guess, it is seeing how lives are changed and things like that, it’s super empowering. I remember one of the first Funnel Hacking Lives I went to, I just had Norah, and I walked into the room and I’m like, ‘What’s happening? These people are here for you?” Being at home with all our kids sometimes, you know, he goes and does his thing, and I’m home. So my eyes were really opened at that first Funnel Hacking experience, and I had a moment. I was super hormonal anyway, but I just bawled. I did the epic cry for a minute because I’m like, wait a sec. So that’s really cool. So the best thing for me is to see him chase his dream, change people’s lives, but also for being at home, being able to be at home with my kids and, so that’s really cool. I think it’s opposite, the hardest thing for me sometimes is being spotted. Because I’m like, ugh, I’m not wearing makeup today, but whatever. It’s fine. We’re real people. So sometimes that’s hard for me. Or sometimes they’ll get super excited to see Russell and they’re like, “Russell Brunson!”and then they push me out of the way. Joshua: Big mistake fans. Collette: No, just kidding. I don’t care. Yeah, so sometimes….. Russell: It’s true though. If you guys want to be smart, this is why we’re on zoom meeting right now, Josh is a very smart man and the first person he ever said hi to was Collette, and now we’re here. So if it were the other way around, it doesn’t work that way. {crosstalk} Russell: Yeah, it was funny, we were on a plane the other day and someone ran up all excited to meet me. He was from Rexburg, which is where Collette grew up. Collette’s like, ‘I’m from Rexburg.’ and he’s like, “Oh.’ And just kept going, and it was just like, alright. I’m not going to remember your name now. Joshua: I couldn’t have done anything without her. That’s the reality, right. I mean, when you’re doing marketing and you’re the face and you’re being the charismatic leader and stuff, that’s one thing. But there’s times when you’re frustrated and you’re breaking down and you’re crying, it’s hard. And Clickfunnels wasn’t always a hundred million dollar thing, it was an idea and Todd’s coding. The dynamic is so hard when you’re launching something. And this is everything. So it was totally authentic, the whole saying thanks to Collette, because Clickfunnels did change our life. Joining inner circle changed our life, for lots of reasons, but I know that that doesn’t happen without her doing all kinds of stuff, holding you up, doing, just its huge. And I know that other married entrepreneurs know exactly what we’re talking about right now. Real quick, I forgot to ask in the beginning. How long have you guys been married? I think a lot of people probably know your story in general. But how long has it been, how many kids do you have? Tell us about that. Collette: So we’ve been married almost 17 years, it’ll be 17 in August. And we have 5 kids ranging 13 to 4. Joshua: Yeah, we’ve been married 17 years in July. That’s awesome. Ready for question number two? Ashley: How is it possible to aggressively pursue business dreams and still have a healthy home life? Russell: This is my question? Collette: {affirmative sound} Russell: You know it’s interesting, it’s kind of weird right now, we’ve had a lot of friends who have been in business recently who have made the split. And it’s like, ugh. I don’t know, every time it happens it’s heart wrenching for us. It’s like, oh, you did the hard things together and when you’re supposed to be celebrating that’s when they split, and it’s tough. You know there’s a quote that this guy David O. McKay said, “No success can compensate for failure in the home.” And that’s a thing that rings in my head all the time. When I’m at work and I’m stressing out at all sorts of stuff and then it’s like, the kids’ wrestling practice is happening, or we gotta do this, or whatever. In my head the easy thing is I’m too busy, I can’t do that. But then that quote comes in my head, “no success can compensate for failure in the home.” And a lot of times I just had to stop and be like, the day is done. I gotta be done. Even though there’s so many things happening, there’s so much stress and anxiety and a billion emails I gotta answer to and 500 voicemails. You know all these things, I just have to stop and come home. And I think that’s a big part of it. I think the other thing that’s been really good, we kind of learned this early in the marriage. I think sometimes, there are times when you have to pull an all-nighter, or you have to be gone for a weekend. And I think at the beginning of our marriage I was really bad at letting her know that, until it’s like 9:30 at night and she’s like, “Where are you?” and I’m like, ‘Oh I’m not coming  home tonight.” And then that’s when the friction would always happen. I think I got better at knowing, okay next week Todd’s coming to town, there’s probably going to be a night or two that’s going to be… When you were aware of it, then it was okay and we were able to kind of figure things out. So communication is a big thing. I don’t think we’re the best communicators, we’re still learning that part of our life. Collette: We’re horrible communicators. Russell: We’re still learning that, but I think as we’ve gotten better, that’s where it’s like I’m able to go really, really aggressive because I know that, like she knows that I’m gone this time and she can support it, and then visa versa, and it helps to even it all out. Collette: Yeah, I second that 100%. I think communication is huge, and we’re not the best at it. And it’s been a lot of, I mean sometimes, upset and sad and whatever, the emotions that come that are angry, not sad, angry. But I really feel blessed, like Russell said, there are a lot of people that do this journey and then you know, sometimes it’s so hard that the marriages do fail or the partnership fails. So I really feel blessed, because I really feel it’s also attitude, and I feel like we’ve portrayed a lot of positive energy to our family and to our kids, and then they kind of see that too. And I just think that’s really a neat thing. As aggressively as this entrepreneurship world is and as fast and furious Russell’s brain works and goes, it’s really cool for them to be like, “Oh my goodness.” But for me too, as a mom, seeing a couple of the kids, their brains kind of taking over and starting to aggressively  have these dreams, and I’m like, “How do I…?” you know. But it’s really cool. How do I keep that a healthy thing for them and discourage them and say, “Wait, wait, wait, let’s do these other things first.” Russell: It’s hard sometimes when Dallin has this million dollar idea. We’re like, “Did you do your homework yet?” and he’s like, “I don’t want to this. If I have to do homework, you have to.” {inaudible} it’s tough. Joshua: So awesome. I know you guys are believers too, and that’s a consistent theme with a lot of the high achievers that we’re going to be interviewing for this. That’s a anchor, I know that’s a huge part of your life as well, right. We love Jesus, we’re a Christian family and stuff. Question number three, I’m going to ask you about a time when it was really hard, which maybe that never happened for you. But you’re talking about love language, I think there should be a book about fight language too. Ashley’s fight language passive aggressive, so like, she just doesn’t talk. Ashley: I’m getting better. I’m getting better. Joshua: When she doesn’t talk I tell her to stop yelling at me, because I say that that’s the equivalent of yelling, it’s just a different methodology. Russell: You should totally write that book, that’d be the greatest. Joshua: So tell us about a time in your journey whenever, whatever comes to mind, that was really hard. Maybe there’s friction, maybe its financial uncertainty, God knows you went through a lot of that. How did you get through it? Collette: Um okay, let’s see. Russell: There’s been a lot of it. Collette and Russell: {crosstalk} sunshine and roses as much as people think. Collette: No, it’s really a hard journey. I want to say, I’m going to start with Ellie. When I was pregnant with Ellie, I feel like I was kind of struggling with my identity a little bit and things like that. Where was I going with this? I think back, our marriage was kind of struggling, was it our seven year itch? Okay, the seven year itch and I was really going through a funk, and he was going through a funk and we were trying to figure out things. You guys, therapy is amazing. Do it. Hard times through marriage and then business. So I would say, it’s good to have coaches, it’s good to have, like Tony Robbins changed my life. I went to that UPW that I came home on cloud number 10,000, and I feel like I came home a better wife and mom. And I feel like you need to redo that because I feel like all the sudden you go down that slippery slope again. So relationship wise, I feel like 2007ish, but then business wise, 2010 we took a pretty big hit. But communication, I didn’t really know so I was like, ‘Let’s go to Disneyland. Let’s go to Disneyland.” And he’s like, “We’re broke.” And I’m like, ‘What? I thought we were rich.” Russell: I was trying to protect her from this. {crosstalk} Ashley: I can totally relate. Totally relate. Sometimes I was like, ‘Oh I need to…” I told my mom I went to, sorry this is about you guys, but I went to the ATM and I was like, ‘Mom, I don’t know if I can get $40 out to go to a garage sale.” And she’s like, “Okay.” And I look at my bank account, and it’s like multiple figures, like thousands and thousands, and she’s like, ‘So are we good?” And I’m like, “Yes, I guess we’re good.’ {Crosstalk and laughter} Ashley: We could go buy a house maybe, I don’t know. What do you want to go buy? Collette: It’s so exciting, the entrepreneurial world. Russell: Yeah, I was thinking about for me, the hardest is, and I shared this story at Funnel Hacking Live and it’s funny because afterwards Collette came up and hit me. Remember, “Why didn’t you tell me about all of that?” Collette: I was mad. Russell: I was trying to protect you. Collette: We’re a partnership, and he held a lot of information from me. So at that particular, it was Dallas I believe, and I was bawling my eyes out, because I’m like, “You were going through that alone. That’s not okay.” Russell: Yeah, I was trying to keep it a secret from her, because I’m the man, I don’t want to… Collette: True. Russell: I was always, we always had enough money. Back then, basically we had a paycheck every single month that covered all our living expenses, and I was like, as long as that doesn’t shift, then her world doesn’t have to shift at all. I didn’t want to put any stress or pressure on her and the kids. So I knew that if it ever got worse, if I got lower than that, I’d bring it up and I was like, I can handle this. And I’d go every single day and just, we had, it was horrible, we had to lay off 70-80 people in one day. We lost all of our merchant accounts, it was just battle after battle. It was like a year of just, like the most stress and pressure ever. But I think one of the most impactful moments of that whole journey, I don’t remember where it was in the timeline, all I remember is that I was trying to take all this pressure and this burden myself. Because I felt like it was my fault, I’d messed up, and that was not just keeping it from her, but keeping it from God, keeping it from everything. I remember one morning I was in the room and I was just … Collette: It was a disaster. Russell: I was a disaster and I didn’t know what to do, and I didn’t want to go into the office, but I had too and all these things. And I was just in tears and I remember, I don’t know if you remember this… Collette: I totally remember. Russell: I remember you grabbing me, and pulling me to my knees and you’re like, “We need to pray right now.” And I think you prayed for me and prayed for the business and prayed for everything. And it was just one of those moments where I was just like, I’m not alone. I have my wife, I have God, I have other things, and I need to rely, I can’t keep relying on myself. And that was really the turning point for me. So that was definitely the hardest part, and probably the coolest thing that came from that and helped me to be more open. Joshua: Thank you so much for sharing that. That is heavy stuff. That’s exactly what we’re looking at, because I know that that’s the case for everybody in their own way. That’s the reality. Because when we’re front and stage, you’ve got to be doing the thing. But there’s all this stuff happening behind the scenes that’s just incredible. Did you have something you wanted to add to that Collette? Collette: No, it was funny because I was thinking of that exact same story when I grabbed him and pulled him down like, ‘we need to pray.” Anyway, that was really cool that you shared that, felt that energy.

During my live on stage Q&A, I did not expect her to say this… On today’s episode Russell shares an interview he did with Lindsey Stirling at Funnel Hacking Live 2019 and talks about what some of the things she said were and why he wasn’t expecting it. Here are some of the amazing things you will hear in this episode: Why Lindsey thought that America’s Got Talent was right about her not being good enough. Find out what Lindsey’s book is about, and how it follows a theme of her life. And see why Lindsey is also involved in Operation Underground Railroad. So listen here to find out how Lindsey Stirling got started, and how her story is similar to that of an entrepreneur. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you loved the last episode where I had, let you guys in behind the scenes to hear Lindsey Stirling at Funnel Hacking Live share some amazing wisdom and ideas and thoughts. And I’m even more excited, if that’s possible, for today’s episode. Because after we queue up the theme song and come back, I’m going to let you guys listen in behind the scenes of the live Q&A I did with her afterwards on stage. We go over a lot of cool things in there and I think you’re going to love it. But the one thing that impressed me most, I want to kind of put it from my perspective, so that when you hear it’ll hopefully have the same impact on you that it had on me. But I do know that before we brought her onstage, I knew that she was on America’s Got Talent, and I do know that she made it through a couple of rounds and then they kicked her off and said she wasn’t good enough. So I specifically I wanted to ask her that question and find out, “What did you feel? What was going on in your mind?” And what I assumed she was going to say was, “Oh yeah, they screwed me. Blah, blah, blah, whatever.” Or “They kicked me off. They didn’t know who I was and I was going to prove them all wrong.” That’s what I assumed she was going to say when she responded back to that answer. But instead what she said was so different and so much better and so much more powerful. What she said afterwards was she got off the show and she went home and she looked at herself and she realized that they were right, she wasn’t good enough yet. So because of that she went back and started practicing and working hard until she became good enough, until she became the Lindsey Stirling we had a chance to experience at Funnel Hacking Live. Such a powerful thing. I thought the message of “Screw you, I’m going to work harder anyway.” would have been powerful, but the message she left instead was a thousand times more powerful. And a lot of times the market tells us no and we have to look at ourselves and say, “You know what, the market is right sometimes. And instead of me fighting it, I’m going to go and I’m going to become good enough.” Such a powerful thing. Anyway, this interview is amazing. It’s not super long, I’ve never interviewed someone on stage before. I’m not going to lie, I was a little bit nervous. It’s only about ten minutes long, but I hope you get a lot of value out of it. Once again, if you guys can go to a Lindsey Stirling concert, support her, she’s amazing. And she was such a huge addition to this year’s Funnel Hacking Live. Alright let’s queue up the theme song and when we come back we’ll jump right into my live Q&A with Lindsey Stirling. Was that amazing or what? Lindsey: Thank you. Russell: What an awesome way to end out this extraordinary last four days together. It’s fun because we were planning, as soon as Funnel Hacking Live ends we start thinking, “What’s the plans for next year?” We were just talking about this and I was like, ‘Man, I want something to end where we can just leave on cloud 9 and everyone’s got the energy and everything. We should have a concert.” And then we’re like, “We’ve never done that before. We don’t know how that even works.” And then, {inaudible} talking, but before. We started talking about different names, who would be possible and then we said your name and everyone on my team was like, “If Lindsey Stirling could come, that would be the most amazing thing ever.’ And you guys just experienced it. Was that the most amazing thing ever? It’s so great. Lindsey: Thank you. Thanks for having us. You guys are amazing, as I’ve said. Thank you so much for your energy and it sounds like it’s been an amazing week. Russell: It’s been a lot of fun. Well, cool. I wanted to take a few minutes just to interview her because we were actually going to try and do this earlier today, but we ran out of time. So I wanted to do this just partially because I want you guys to connect with her more, and be able to follow her more, and I’m going to talk a little about that towards the end, but also so everyone understands some of her journey. Because some of her journey, I think, is very similar to a lot of your guys’ journeys as well. So I think my first question is, where did you come up with such a unique thing? There’s people who do violins, people who do dance but I’ve never heard of anyone besides you who did both. How did you come up with that? Lindsey: You know I, well a funny fact I guess about me is, a lot of people ask me, ‘what came first, the violin or the dancing?’ And the thing is I’ve played the violin my whole life. It started when I was 6. I did not start dancing until I was 23 years old, and I’m a self taught dancer. So it’s very ironic that I’ve always loved dance and I thought it was such a beautiful art form, and I wanted to make my performance as a violinist more engaging than just, I always felt so stiff. So I really started working on incorporating movement into my performances. But you know, the funny thing was is that I had this vision of being a dancing violinist, and I couldn’t dance. And I think it’s so important whenever you are starting out on a venture or a journey whether it’s an artistic one or a business one, there are things that you’re going to be like, “But I don’t know how to do that. How could I possibly be a dancing violinist if I don’t know how to dance?” Well, I started step by step by step in a very literal sense, teaching myself very simple choreography that just started with like a look and a wink and a little shoulder. You know, just very minimal movements, and now I can literally do backbends while I play. I can spin, I can learn choreography and it all was just step by step and because I had such a clear vision and I was so determined. You know, sometimes the less you know in a way, the better it is. I don’t think I realized how difficult it would be, so I naively just went into it with everything I had and worked tirelessly until I could do it. Russell: That’s amazing. Very cool. So my next question is, before Crystalized blew up for you and you’re going through I’m sure practicing and doing things and videos and all sorts of stuff, and things weren’t blowing up for you, first off how long was that period of time for you? And second off, what was it that kept you going, like moving forward during that time as opposed to just throwing it in and walking away from it all? Lindsey: Yeah, I probably started to pursue and write my own music and make this art of dancing and playing and I probably worked at that for 2 years before I even discovered YouTube. And during that time I had some, I had a lot of times I kind of fell on my face, sometimes literally, sometimes more figuratively speaking. One of which was extremely public, it was in front of millions of people on America’s Got Talent. I was, my little artistic heart was absolutely broken on that show. I felt like my spirit was just broken at what I thought was going, I thought this was going to be the biggest moment of my life and what changed everything. And I ended up getting absolutely publicly humiliated and told in front millions of people on live tv that I sounded like strangled rats when I played the violin. I was told I didn’t have what it took and I should try something else, I would never make it. And that was one of the hardest things to get over because I was literally terrified to step on a stage again after that. I was like, “I just don’t know if I can face that kind of humiliation.” It was in the back of my mind every time I would go to step on a stage, “I am probably going to fail.” But I took a little break from it just to re-gather my confidence again and to work on my craft. And I realized, I think the most important thing about that story, which took me years to realize, is that they told me, “You’re not good enough.” And people now always are like, “Oh America’s Got Talent, they were so wrong about you. They missed this diamond in the rough.” And looking back on it, no, they actually were right. I wasn’t good enough, but the most important word was left out and it said, “I wasn’t good enough yet.” I had literally just invented this idea of dancing and playing a violin and I hadn’t put in the time yet. I wasn’t good enough. But I just began, once I realized that I’m just not good enough yet, I worked for the next year and a half honing my craft and getting good enough so that no one would ever be able to say that again, and it wouldn’t be true. And I also think there’s this inner gut that guides you, and sometimes you get to a point, and I’ve done this in different ventures, where I realize this isn’t a path that I should pursue anymore. I think this door is closed and it’s time to go to a different one. But this door, I knew that it would open. I just felt it. And it was, I just need to keep going, because that inner compass will never lead you astray. And to me, that’s God.  You can call it whatever you want, whether it’s the universe talking to you and guiding you, but I do believe there is something so much greater than ourselves that guides us and gives us inspiration and gives us that courage to press forward. I’m spinning. Russell: I know, me too. They’re all spinning up here. So for those who want to know more about you, I know in fact, my mom’s down here, my mom in the middle, she’s like, ‘Have you read her book yet?” Will you tell everyone about your book, so if people want to learn more about you and your life and everything. I’d love for you to tell them about that and have them all go buy the book tonight. Lindsey: There you go. My book is called The Only Pirate at the Party. It’s very thematic of a theme in my life, where it’s based off a true story where I went to a birthday party that when I first moved to LA, and it was a Peter Pan themed birthday party and I was really excited. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, I have a pirate costume. This is perfect. I’m going to make so many friends.” And it was that mean girls moment where I walk into the party and it was a regular party. Nobody was dressed up and I was a full blown pirate. And I was like, I had the hat, I had a tin foil hook I made so I was Captain Hook. And there was like a Tinkerbell cake, and that was the only thing that let you know maybe this was a themed party. And I remember there was that moment of like, no one’s really seen me yet. No one really knows me, I could get in my car and go home and no one’s the wiser, or I could just own it and go into the freaking party and try to make some friends. And I decided to go in and make some friends, and kind of laugh about my, and I met a lot of people because I was the only pirate at the party. But it was such a like, you know what, this seems like it’s a little bit of a theme of my life and that’s why the book has all these stories. It’s not like any of us walk through life trying to be like, ‘I’m different. I’m the only pirate.” You know, but I think we’re all different. We are all so unique and those are the things that make us wonderful, they’re the things to be celebrated. The joys, the hardships and it all leads into our story. So that’s what my book talks about. It talks about my experiences going through an eating disorder and depression and America’s Got Talent and all these times when I hit the bottom. And through my own gifts and uniqueness decided it’s time to get back up again. Russell: Awesome. Everyone go on Amazon and get that today. Alright, so my last question for you is revolving around Operation Underground Railroad. So I know you’ve been involved for a long time with them as well, and you had a chance to watch the documentary. So last year, at this event in Orlando was the first time we introduced this world to Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. We watched the first documentary, we raised just over a million dollars during that event, which is insane and amazing. And then Tim actually flew from our event to Haiti to pick up his kids and then flew back, which was so cool. So I know you’ve been involved with them for a long time, but I’d love to hear some of your thoughts about what they’re doing and the importance of it and kind of how you’re getting involved now as well. Lindsey: You know, I don’t, like I get chills just thinking about it. The documentary was so, I don’t think there was a dry eye in the room. It’s I think what they are fighting is the greatest evil that could possibly happen. It’s the greatest evil, it’s the plague of our time. And I don’t think there is anything that is more important than freeing people from slavery. And Tim’s book is amazing. Slave Stealer’s if you haven’t read it, it’s on audible, you can listen to it as you drive around. But it’s so, you know I’ve written a lot of music based off of my experience of going through anorexia and depression and I do a lot of these metaphorical images and music videos about being trapped. And they were to represent a time when I was literally trapped like a prisoner inside my own mind, and that was really, really hard. But it just makes me think like my next mission, I’ve told that story now, my next mission is to talk about how people can literally be trapped by somebody else. And you know what, I think the greatest thing about having a voice and having success is that then you get to pick, you get to tell your story, through my book, through my music, through my art, but then I also get the opportunity to help other people tell their stories. And each one of you, as you grow your business and your brands and whatever it is, this is giving you not only a platform for the things you’re passionate about, and the things you work so hard for, but it’s giving you a platform to share whatever message you are passionate about. And I’m super passionate about Operation Underground Railroad. I’m so excited, I was so excited to hear that they were a part of this event and that you guys support them. Anyways, I can’t think of a greater cause. Russell: Awesome. Thank you.

Tips to Becoming an Exceptional Board Member with Jeb Banner As the CEO and a Founder of Boardable, Jeb Banner is passionate about community nonprofits, entrepreneurship, and more. He also founded SmallBox, a creative agency for mission-driven organizations, and is co-founder of The Speak Easy and founder of Musical Family Tree, both 501(c)(3) nonprofits.   Interview Transcript Jeb Banner: More and more. I was running another business at the time, which worked mostly with nonprofits called SmallBox, a creative agency here in Indy. As we raised some money and as the business turned off, I shifted from SmallBox to Boardable in the course of 2017. I went full-time in 2018. My wife actually took over the agency and runs that now. We are all in the same building in Indianapolis here in the old library. We still get to work together, but different floors. Hugh Ballou: Awesome. Jeb, we write a plan, set some goals, and we give it to the board. It's all a done deal. The board embraces it. What is your experience with boards? Jeb: Boards are busy. Boards are over-committed. Board members are often serving on multiple boards. They are spread thin. This is one of the challenges we want to solve in the product, eventually building out a talent marketplace on Boardable's platform to give boards access to a wider pool of talent. This is a real challenge. These great people who serve on boards often get called to serve on other boards. When they show up, they're often reading the material at the Stop sign, on the drive in, in the parking lot, during the meeting. They're not always prepared. Board members, as much as they really want to give everything they can, they don't really have the time to do it because they're spread so thin. Nonprofits struggle to hold board members accountable because they don't feel comfortable asking them to follow through in a way they should sometimes, or really do the role they need to do in the organization because they're volunteers. It's hard to make demands of a volunteer. A lot of what we're trying to do is build into the product ways for those board members to be nudged toward the right behaviors. Hugh: Well, this is fascinating. Russell, you worked with a nonprofit Indian reservation for many years. Are you hearing some things jump out about boards that you'd like to probe? Russell Dennis: Communication is probably the biggest challenge that board leaders and boards have. We had the challenge up there where I was working of geography working against us. Our board members were scattered over an area that was about the size of Rhode Island and Connecticut combined in a county called Aroostook. Our council members, the government body, or board if you will, would travel from long distances, 60-65 miles some of them, to attend the meeting. We had bi-weekly meetings. In northern Maine, weather is an issue. Being able to communicate is pretty tough. There is more technology available for that. There is challenges in conducting board meetings and staying in touch. Yes, I agree that getting things done can be tough. It can be pretty tricky. A lot of times, when folks like you, entrepreneurs and consultants, people have problems that drive them bananas, that keep them awake. What were some of the key things that were driving you crazy that you thought you had to fix, that motivated you and inspired you to develop a platform to help board members operate an organization more smoothly? Jeb: I think the #1 thing is communication. What you just said there is true. Keeping up that communication between meetings. Doing it in a way that meets people where they are. Everybody has their own style. Some people like to text, some like to email, and some like phone calls. You have people at different technology levels, too. The boards I was running had less of that challenge. Boards I sit on now, that is one of the challenges they have. The #1 headache I experienced as a board chair was centralizing everything. So much was going into my inbox, like the bylaws would be attached to an email from two years ago. Where was the bylaws? There is no central repository. If somebody rolled off the board, their inbox rolled off the board with them. All that communication, all those documents they may have been working on just vanishes. That is a real problem with boards. There is no continuity if you are using those kinds of tools. They are not built for that. They are built for immediacy. That centralization was pain point #1. After that comes the communication pain point. Having a place where everything flows. If you start a discussion in Boardable, it goes into their inbox and phones. It responds, and it goes back in. It's always back in the system. That is a real headache. The third thing we thought about was it has to be super easy to use. It has to be simple. If you give a board member a tool they can't use, if they can't log in, if they can't make sense of it, it's worthless. It can do all the things in the world, but it's worthless. As we have gotten into it further, we think about it a lot more around engagement. We have different dimensions of engagement we think about as well. We can chat about that later. The initial problems were centralization, communication, and simplification. Hugh: Boardable.com. That's quite an impressive site. We have a couple folks I want to shout out to. Don Ward, who is in Orlando, Florida. He is the president of the CEO clubs in central Florida. Has groups that talk about leadership, business development, and nonprofits. He said, “Board members need to be trained. They think their input and power is far more than it was ever supposed to be. What if…” How would you respond to that, Jeb? Jeb: I think setting and managing expectations with a board member, and that is part of that training, around what their role and responsibility is on the board. Different boards have different levels of responsibility to the organization. Some boards really do have a high level. Fiduciary responsibility in most cases. There are real consequences to their decisions. They often don't understand that. They don't understand they are playing with fire, if you will. This is not a practice. Other boards are more advisory, where they are just giving input. Defining that role, and saying to the board member, “Hey, this is what we expect of you. This is your lane.” And being clear about that up front through board training, onboarding, mentorship—giving them a mentor to work with on the board—is a missed opportunity. Based on our research, two thirds to three fourths fail to do any onboarding or training. Then you have a board member that doesn't know what is expected of them, so they run wild. I agree with that comment. I think board members, not maliciously, they don't just know their role, so they do what they think they need to do. Hugh: You're so right. Without clear expectations, leaders are actually setting up conflict. People don't know where to- They can't color inside the lines because they don't know where the lines are. Jeb: That's right. I think a lot of times, leaders are timid about this. They are uncomfortable having that conversation. They are uncomfortable telling that powerful donor that has joined the board, “Don't do this.” They have trouble giving them those lines because they are writing checks in some cases, or they are influential. They struggle with that accountability and that clarity. Hugh: That's a big deal. I hear leaders say, “I can't correct them because they are volunteers. They're giving their time.” I served megachurches for 40 years. I had plenty of opportunities to fire volunteers. Sometimes they were happy about it. Most of the time, they were happy about it because they knew it wasn't a good fit. Actually, I got to a place where we eliminated the word “volunteer” because a lot of the language, like “nonprofit,” which is a lie, and “volunteer,” which is dumbing down, some of the language we use actually contributes to the lower functioning. In the church, we created members of the ministry. It was a leadership position. In my symphony, I am the president of the symphony here, we are on the road to creating a servant leader model, where people have a track, and they lead in the model here. There is a whole lot of things that we set up that we unintentionally set up problems. Talk about this- There is a fear of conflict. People want to step away from it, which fosters it. Making course corrections doesn't mean you have to tell people they are wrong. Talk about that interaction. That is a big deal, I think. Jeb: I often think- Are you familiar with Patrick Lencioni, the author? Hugh: Five Dysfunctions… Jeb: Five Dysfunctions of a Team. You look at that pyramid. You have to have that trust in order to have conflict, which gets into commitment, which leads to accountability to reinforce it, which outputs results. To have that alignment there, you have to start with trust. Making sure that board member is part- Trust is being part of a team, feeling like they are safe to step up. They can talk about their concerns. They feel they are in a safe space to speak their mind. It's very hard to engender that without some of that teambuilding work that you need to do with boards. There is some socialization to that. I use a design thinking framework when I work with boards to do small group activities to push conversations and connections so that people feel like they know each other and there is a foundation of trust so they can start to move in that conflict. Conflict is critical. You need to have conflict on a board. Healthy, productive conflict. Not political drama-based conflict, but real conflict where people really care about things. Hugh: it's a sign of energy, isn't it? Jeb: It's a sign of life. If you don't have it, you have a problem. If everybody is sitting there going, “Yeah, yeah, yeah,” you have a dysfunctional board. It may not look like it, but it's dysfunctional. Hugh: The only place I have seen where there is no conflict is a cemetery. Jeb: There is conflict in the earth between the body and the ground, I'll tell you that much. Hugh: Oh man. Another watching on Facebook is Don Green, who is in Wise, Virginia. Don Green is the executive director of a nonprofit called The Napoleon Hill Foundation. Don is sending his thank you because this is useful information. Russell, do you want to weigh in on this leader making course corrections? I think this is a bigger topic than most people realize. Russell: Running a nonprofit or an organization is just like flying a plane. When you get into a plane, your pilot takes off, and they are flying along. They are off course the vast majority of the time. They spend the whole time course-correcting. You know where you're leaving from, and you know where you're going, but you make a lot of adjustments along the way. Running an organization is a lot like that. That is the thing. I had somebody say to me one time. I was attending a church many years ago back home. These guys are all nice. One of the deacons said, “If you like everybody you've met here, you haven't been to enough services.” There is going to be that conflict from time to time. It's important to be able to come back together at the end of that day and agree on the common goal. How you get there could be an interesting dynamic. If everybody was the same, people would get bored and walk away. That dynamic tension is what makes the work exciting. Jeb: Absolutely. Hugh: You don't want a bunch of yes people, do you? Russell: No, it would be very dull. Hugh: Also, we create a culture that is the opposite, where people are afraid of standing out and saying their mind. The real meeting happens in the parking lot. “So yeah, I knew what was going on in there, but here is what I think.” Triangling going on. Jeb, let's forecast. What does a really great board look like? We were talking about the exceptional board member. Either the board as a whole or a board member. Tell us what that looks like from your perspective. Jeb: I think there are a few dimensions to this. You have the composition of the board itself. The board should be somewhat reflective, not entirely one-to-one of the people it's serving, but somewhat reflective so there is an empathetic connection to the service being provided. Then I think there should be diversity of age, race, gender. It needs to bring in different perspectives. I don't have an exact formula for that, but a healthy board has a level of diversity there. Getting into the roles of the board. You look at that. We need someone who has a legal background, depending on the organization, a finance background, a marketing background. It's important to have that composition as well. Then you look at the actual activity of the board. That's where I think about engagement. I think about seven dimensions of engagement. Preparation for a board meeting. Are they preparing? Are they reading the materials? Are they showing up to the meetings? Are they following through on what they said they would do? Are they volunteering, getting involved in the organization so they feel the impact of the work? Are they advocating on behalf of the organization? Are they fundraising? Helping raise money. Are they donating? Writing the checks. Looking across those seven dimensions, and then looking at those other areas, I think that then you need leadership. That is the last ingredient. To make sure you have that foundation of safety and trust for conflict, which leads to a healthy dialogue and the ability of that board to really, truly govern the organization. Russell: Our friend Dr. David Gruder develops a lot of tools around that for people to talk to one another. There are some other resources out there like Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone and Bruce Patten. It's important to be able to do that. What it boils down to is being genuine and authentic. You're communicating in respectable ways. What are some of the tools you have provided to help board members do that in organizations you work with? Jeb: I'm familiar with Crucial Conversations. Is that a similar framework to what you're talking about? Russell: Yes, they are different. Jeb: Crucial Conversations is wonderful training. I have done that a couple times. I think that's great training. It's a little extensive for a full board to go through. In my experience, I have a background in design thinking. It's a framework that people-centered. It's empathy-based. It's all about starting with the problem. Trying to create a consensus around what the problem is, not what the solution is. There is a lot of different exercises that come from that, different ways that you can facilitate whole and small group exercises. You can do research. There is a whole toolkit that my previous company SmallBox used in our work with nonprofits and boards. For instance, organizational values, which is a part of what the board needs to do. They need to be a part of that values conversation. Mission, vision, those conversations as well. Then you get into strategic planning. There are tools around that from the design thinking background that are helpful for that. Working with the United Way board here in town, we recently redesigned their entire board governance approach. It started with working in small groups to bring in ideas and socialize ideas with the larger board to then refine those, and take those back to leadership, and put them into a plan. I follow that approach, which is more organic. I do think there is good tools out there. My background and training is more in that design thinking framework, which is more custom to the situation. Russell: Custom solution is different. Everyone is different. Everyone on the board is different. What are some challenges in making a board run efficiently that you've seen across various types of organizations, some of the universal ones? Jeb: Meetings. Time management. Managing the agenda, managing the conversations, making sure that people are staying on topic. You don't have people grandstanding. Every board has someone who loves to hear themselves talk. There have been times where it's been me. I love to hear myself talk. But having the chair or the executive director, it's best when it's the chair, be an active facilitator and have some facilitation training, so they learn how to bring in others, make sure everyone has that safe space to be heard. I think that's critical in a productive board experience. Everything about the board is that meeting. Like you said, the parking lot conversations, that starts to happen a lot when the dysfunction of that meeting deepens. All of that stuff ripples out. You have phone calls and emails. It cascades when that meeting is ineffective. Hugh: I'm a conductor. Especially the better they are, every ensemble rehearses for every performance. We don't rehearse. Some of the stuff you're talking about is how we get better at what we do. In a sense, rehearsals, I'd like to share with you sometime later. Meetings are the #1 killer of teams. I have a whole piece that says the agenda is the killer of productivity. Agendas don't use agendas for rehearsals; we use deliverables. We can accomplish. Goals for the session. We focus on outcomes. That is a reframing. I see everything as a rehearsal. I'm sorry. Jeb: Sure, I can relate to that. Hugh: There are so many things you've hit on that are big-deal things that we have to be selective here. I want to go back to this board governance. Russell, he threw a zinger in there that had fire in the name. Did you hear that? About governance and board members. Jeb: Playing with fire. Russell: Playing with fire, yeah. Hugh: Expand on that a little bit. Not having ONC insurance, DNC insurance, Arizona missions not having- Russell: Directors and offices liability insurance policies. It's critical to protect yourself and to keep the structures separate. Compliance is a big deal when it comes to running these organizations. There is a lot of documentation that is required. Have you found that boards warm up to the challenge of keeping all of that in order? Jeb: Absolutely. I just recently joined a board. A week later, the board resigned, not because I joined the board, but because of issues in the organization. I was the last board member standing. This was an experience. Part of it was because the insurance had not been taken care of. There were other issues and lapse that were not being brought to the board's attention. It was a two-way street. The leadership in the organization wasn't doing its job, but neither was the board. The board needs to push to get clarity on those things. Part of why that happened is they did push. It was a bit of a mess. I found myself moving into a chair role when I expected to be a board member, and having to help the organization, and still now, get back up on its feet. It's been a crash course in a lot of the things we're talking about. When I'm talking about playing with fire, I am speaking from experience. That's fire. You're talking about vehicle insurance and transporting kids. You have to think about that stuff. The board is on the hook. The buck stops with the board. The board is the boss. I don't think board members really get that when they sign up. I don't think they really get that. I think they would take their jobs more seriously if they understood the consequences of not doing their jobs. I think that's a real failure in leadership because they're too timid about that conversation. Russell: That baptism by fire when I worked with the Micmac nation is the same baptism by fire you're talking about. In terms of documentation, there are so many things that have to be kept in one place. Does your platform help with that? Does it help to deal with governing documents and creating a space where people can collaborate and have these conversations? That is another common problem. I have my favorite tools I use to work with. I have different clients who like different tools, some of which I'm not crazy about. It's about getting things done, so I have learned to use a number of different things. That's not always conducive to good communication and keeping things working. Talk about if you could address the importance of organizing all of your compliance documents and processes. Jeb: That is what Boardable does. Thanks for the pitch there. The problem that we see with a lot of boards is that nothing is one place. When a new board member rolls on, they're forwarding them emails. The mess grows and expands. Having all documents, everything that you're doing in one place so that no matter what, you've got it right here on the app. You have your directory, your documents. You can call someone from here. You have your groups, agendas, minutes, and voting, everything you need in one place, your notifications, tasks, follow-up items. And you integrate with all those other tools. That is the key here. You have to integrate with Google Docs and Dropbox and Microsoft and calendars and emails because people won't stop using those tools. They shouldn't. They work. We have to meet them where they are. A lot of what we focus on is accepting the board experience as it is and coming alongside and bringing value and augmenting what they're doing. Hugh: What you don't know is the guy who comes knocking at the door from the IRS was Russell. He knows about compliance. He wants to see your corporate record book. I find many, if any, executives who understand what the function of the record book is and what should be in there. Is that part of your program as well? Jeb: Yes, it automatically organizes all those documents into folders. You can lock and control them depending on committee access. All those meetings are automatically archived historically. Who was in attendance? Who wasn't? You create a report that shows everything that happened. When the IRS does knock at the door, you can show them exactly what you did, how you voted. There is the agenda from that meeting, whatever you need to show them. Fortunately, I have not been audited yet. Hopefully that doesn't happen here soon. But when Russell does knock at my door, I'm confident at least with the organizations I'm involved with and our customers they'll be ready. Hugh: You're audit-ready. Jeb: I hope so. I'll ask my CFO and see if he has the answers. Hugh: Russell is on a good track here with compliance. I do think most are blind to this. That's why you got us on here. This sounds like valuable stuff, doesn't it, Russ? Russell: It is. As far as having processes, a lot of the problems revolve around people using a different language in addition the tools they think differently. There are certain things that have to be in place. if you can create a way where people have that common understanding and can access stuff. Brendan Burchard talks about creating different products, courses, approaching consulting, and he talks about tools. One of the things he says is if it's not easy to access, understand, and use, people aren't going to bother with it. Meetings get complicated. A tool like that, Hugh's publication on conducting a successful meeting, because it really breaks things down and makes it manageable. Jeb: Absolutely. If you can't use the tool, if you can't log in, if it's frustrating or confusing, give it 10, 15, maybe 30 seconds, and at that point, you are going back to what you know. This is where things get hard. The organization often caters to the board. They want the board to be taken care of. If the board says this isn't working for me, whatever it is, they will print out the packet. They will do whatever they need to do to help the board. It's good and bad. It's good to take care of your board. The board needs that information. I think it's also good sometimes that organization needs to push the board more than they do. Too often, they cater and capitulate to the board instead of pushing the board to do best practices in terms of how they want to communicate. They have to give them tools that are easy to use. That is super critical. Hugh: Jeb, let's take a case study. Is that okay? A real, live situation. I am the president of the board, the board chair, of the Lynchburg Symphony. We have 24 board members. A third rotate each year. It's a three-year gig. We have a moving and family situation, so we have 10 new members coming in. A week and a half from now, we are doing our strategy, some people would call it a retreat, but we are going to charge. We are not retreating. It's a work session, which is different from a board meeting. We have a planning session. I have highly skilled board members that are committee chairs of development, finance, events, and concert programs. We are mapping the future. Our proprietary strategy is called a solution map. Where do you want to be? How are you going to get there? it's the basic rubric of a strategic plan, but more nonprofit-friendly. We are doing our planning session. I already met with all the chairs and the new conductor. We are starting a new era with a new conductor. I am succeeding a president who put a lot of systems in place. I am inheriting a sound board and a sound organization, financially and structurally, and we are moving it up. What do you think is the most important things that I should do with incoming board members as we strategize on our work and integrating our work together as we plan for the next five years, and specifically the next year? Jeb: I think that the onboarding piece is critical. We talked about that earlier. Making sure they know what is expected of them and what their role is. I think that's important. Assigning them a board mentor is important as well if that is something you can do. That can give them navigational help on a peer level. The third thing is getting them a committee assignment as soon as possible. They need to feel like they have a role on the board. The board meeting, they will feel they are observers for a while. They may ask some questions, but they may not feel they have a really defined role. That onboarding, setting roles and responsibilities, getting them a mentor, getting them on a committee are three initial things you can do that will increase their engagement and make them feel like they are a part of something. That is the initial phase. Hugh: Russell, I did all of those. Jeb: Good job! Russell: Yes, you did. Building a board book. When people go through our leadership symposium, it's a board book. It lays out a big-picture overview of some things you do. He has other materials he's built that could actually take leaders through a reflective process. Having what we call a board book has the information that people need. Setting up some training around that and having them go through that, as well as having a mentor, is great. As you are bringing somebody on board, you want to find out what lights their fire. What is something they just can't wait to get out of bed to do? They are going to have some ownership around that. They will have ideas around that. Good leaders build better leaders. You set the parameters for success, and you turn them loose and let them run with it. Jeb: That's a great point. Tapping into what they're passionate about is critical. That is often a conversation before they join the board, but it can be an ongoing conversation of what is the why. What is the why here? There has to be some alignment between their why and the organization's why. If that is missing, they're not going to be engaged. There will be misalignment. That leads to dysfunction, which can be challenging. Hugh: I like that word, “dysfunction.” Russell: Especially if they are effective and highly visible, everyone accepts Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny is running after them to get them on their board of directors. That's fine if they have the bandwidth to do it. What I have seen on occasion is they are not clear with what they want to do or accomplish. They're not sure what they want from the board members. Typically, they find people who they love and adore, who they're good friends with, who support them. They don't always take that inventory of exactly what they need, and can't always define that commitment. What are some of the things you have seen? How have you been able to address those types of issues? Jeb: In terms of aligning their commitment? Russell: And crafting a set of expectations. Jeb: To be honest, I haven't done that as much as I should have. The previous time, I was chairing two nonprofits I co-founded, and they were like start-ups. It was a bootstraps situation, where the founders became the board members. We added from there. With the board I am rejuvenating right now, we are in triage mode. We are trying to get up and running. With the larger board I serve on, the United Way board, they are much more intentional about this experience. It's been good to watch from that perspective. I have a financial commitment to the board I'm making, which is important. A lot of boards have that. The more mature and functional board, which this one certainly is, they know what they're doing, they're intentional. They have a full-time administrator working with the board. There are clear commitments. I sign things every year. They talk about it a lot. They have one-on-one sessions with me every year to talk about my giving, where I'm going with my life. How is United Way going to be a part of that? I have seen that be effective. I see it more with my customers, but I am speaking from my own experience. I have been more on the start-up side of boards. When a board is starting up, the start-up phase is different. You have the start-up, the growth, and the cruise. The cruise control one is where United Way is. It's healthy, big, knows what it's doing. Different dynamics, different needs. It changes as the board changes. Russell: A lot of tools we put together here at SynerVision address organizations at different stages. What I love about the model Hugh has created is it's perfect for somebody who is starting. If you can structure everything right, which isn't always the case, you're going to have fewer problems later. Hugh: Thank you for highlighting that. What I see, Jeb, is we do the people part of this. What's missing is all the stuff you highlighted. The plethora of emails that is a cancer. I remember when we didn't have email, when we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have cell phones or texting. We keep adding things, but we never take anything away. People are just bombarded. Sometimes they don't read anything. You've covered so many important topics here. Russell, you never saw this happen, but I have seen this happen. Board members come unprepared to a meeting. Russell: That happens? Jeb: I've never seen that happen. Russell: When did that start? Jeb: Shocking. Hugh: They're busy people. They leave a board meeting and get sucked into the vortex of life. The next thing they know, there is another meeting coming up at 6:00. What was I supposed to do? It's the engagement piece that keeps people tuned in between meetings. One of my missions in meetings is we teach people that we don't work at meetings, we work in between meetings. We check in. it's an accountability system. A planning session is different. A regular board meeting, we report on what we've done, and we define what we're going to do and look for those points of collaboration and collision that we want to work on. Speak about those topics. Jeb: You're totally right. It's the in-between that is so important. Board members think of their board services as simply the meeting. Here I am, I'm in the meeting. There are some boards where that is truly their role. That goes back to defining roles and responsibilities. If all they are doing is being advisory, or simply sitting there to listen and decide, that is one thing. A healthy board has projects and activities running in between meetings. To do that, there is a lot of management. You have to set that expectation up front of what kind of hours you are committing a month when you join this board. Very few boards have that conversation. They talk about the board meetings. They talk maybe about committees. Talking about the hours you will commit and spend. This is two or three hours a week, we expect you to come in for a meeting, etc. We redesigned the committees at United Way, and it has been a fascinating experience. We are moving more toward work groups. More ad hoc. Is this getting you excited? Hugh: Oh yeah. There is the old adage that committees are a place where good ideas go to die. Jeb: I respect that committees are still the primary vehicle for a lot of organizations and our customers. I think there are healthy committees. The idea of being more ad hoc subject matter experts that come together as needed around a problem to solve that problem. Those are being formed as needed. During board meetings, between board meetings. They are reporting back. You have a platform, whether it's Boardable or something else, where they are able to collaborate, share content documents. That creates visibility to others in the organization so that work is not entirely happening in a silo. That makes the work more effective. It multiplies that work. That move is a good one. It gives people something to do. I hate sitting in a committee meeting and feeling like I have nothing to do with what's being talked about. I want to feel like I have some skin in the game. Hugh: Absolutely. Russell, this is music to our ears, isn't it? Russell: This is great stuff. Solution sessions are great because you got to get in there, got to get it done. You don't have time to goof around. Having people with the right information. Understanding the roles and how everybody fits is communication. That is where things slip through the cracks, when somebody says, “I thought you were going to take care of that.” “Didn't we agree you would?” You end up in this back and forth. You definitely want to stay out of that. You want to stay out of finger-pointing as well. What you're doing is too important. Finger-pointing solves no problems. It keeps you away from course-correcting. Hugh: I love it. My meetings always end with an action plan. Who is going to do it? What is the action? To do what? Who is the champion? What is the deadline? It ends up with a communication board. What is the specific message somebody that is not here needs to know? Who was going to tell them? We don't think of those things. We sit around and talk about things to do. Everyone assumes the facilitator will do them. Man, it's been a lot of very helpful content here. What are board ambassadors? I want to ask you two questions. What are board ambassadors? There are groups, governance and financial oversight, which is your board of directors. The symphony has an advisory council. They are just what you said. We ask their advice. And we have advisors at large, people we call from time to time to give us advice. Those are the three sets of people we have connected. But the board of directors is fitting in to the role you are talking about, the group that is responsible for this organization. Are there other entities, besides committees or work groups or project teams, you find are helpful? Jeb: You have YP boards. They are good to create a feeder system for the main board. Young professional boards. They are that group of younger people in their career, in their 20s often, who are rising in their careers. We see that happening more and more with nonprofits. They have YP boards. They can pick from their boards as you see leadership emerge. I like that system. You see who shows up. You see who gets things done. That also gets that age diversity issue, which I think is a real problem with boards. A lot of boards struggle to get those younger board members. It's two things. The younger board members don't have awareness around the opportunity, and I think they are intimidated by it as well. The YP board is a good piece for that. Board ambassadors. That could be more on the emeritus side. Folks who have been on the board for a while, who are no longer in an active role but are still really important connectors in the community, and you want to keep them involved. That is one way to think about it. Perhaps you have a different thought on that term. I'm curious what you're thinking. Hugh: I love that. That's a vacuum in my thinking. We do see a lot of old white guys. We see way too much of that. I have changed the symphony board so far. The 11 days I'm in, it's already a different board. I had a good board to build on, so I'm not saying it was bad before. We are adding some of those elements of diversity. Russell, we have about three minutes for a short question before we go into our sponsor message and give Jeb his last word. Russell: We're talking about bringing youth in. I like the idea of what I call reverse mentoring, where there is this knowledge exchange between generations. I went to a United Veterans Committee Colorado meeting this morning. Lots of gray hair. Yes, the brown guys get gray hair, too. This whole notion of diversity, I had a marvelous week last week helping Carol Carter with GlobalMinded at Be the Solution conference here in Denver. The whole event was about diversity and inclusion. If people don't feel like they are a part of something, they won't participate. That is a serious topic. We have covered that. It might be time for us to do another diversity and inclusion panel, Hugh. That is very important. I am curious as to, and you have been on several boards, what has the composition of your board looked like? What did you need to do to help that along, or make any adjustments to make sure you had the bandwidth of ideas and energy? Jeb: Each board has been unique in this aspect. The Speakeasy was founded by a bunch of white guys. We had to be intentional about diversifying the member base. People who were members of the co-working space, along with the board. Not in a check the box way, but in a legitimate, how do we get real perspectives into this? How do we get women into this? I am proud of where the board is now. It's had three female executive directors in a row. It's had a diverse board consistently. In terms of the board I'm working with now, it's diverse as well. There is a lot of opportunity to improve here. It's tricky because I think that there aren't natural pathways for people in different demographics to explore board service. I think this is a real challenge, especially in certain populations in Indianapolis. There is no awareness around it whatsoever. We have a three-phase road map: board management, which is the logistical side of it; board engagement, which gets into all the things we talked about in terms of nudging behavior to people saying what they said they will do; and board talent, really trying to give a tool to boards to get that talent, a matrix to see what diversity they have now, what skills they have now. And a marketplace for them to connect with people. We market that marketplace to populations that don't currently think of board service. That is where we are taking the product. This speaks to my desire to create more opportunity for others. I feel like this system is rigged. There is an opportunity to use technology and marketing and content to bring others into it. A board role can be transformative in the life of a person. It can broaden their network and connections. It can open doors that wouldn't have been opened. It can lead to careers and opportunities that were not available to them before that role. To bring more of those roles to people of different backgrounds, not just of my background, but all kinds of backgrounds. I am a privileged person. I grew up with parents who volunteered with nonprofits. This is the culture I came from. It's what I know. To give this experience to others is where we see the company going. Hugh: Thank you on behalf of nonprofits for doing this. This work is so important. We will be having more conversations. Russell, I can smell some cross-support here, maybe more conversations about our alignment. We have things and you have things that would be better together. *Sponsored by Wordsprint* Jeb, give us the top traits of an effective board member. What thought do you want to leave us with? Then Russell will close us out. Jeb: The seven things I discussed earlier: 1) A board member is prepared for meetings. 2) They are showing up. 3) They are following through. 4) They're volunteering in the organization. 5) They're advocating on behalf of the organization. That ambassador piece. 6) They're helping with fundraising. 7) They're donating, writing a check themselves. Those are the seven dimensions that we look at to measure in our product. What was the other question? Hugh: What tip do you have for people? Jeb: I think my #1 tip to board leaders is if you are not comfortable having hard conversations, whether it's the difficult or crucial conversations, take some time to do some training. Learn how to have those conversations in a way that is productive. I believe the difference between a good and a great organization is a lot of hard conversations. That skillset is important to build as a leader. Russell: Jeb Banner, it's been a remarkable hour. Thank you so much for coming to share your wisdom with us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough Creating More Income with John Gies After more than two decades in corporate, John Gies heard a potential client say that $400,000 tax free was not worth his time. John knew then that he wanted to work where he could make a difference. Over the next several years he gained his Coach Certification, He has taught and coached organizations around the country and he now works with small business owners and non-profit organizations to help them create the income they need to thrive. John's personal live vision is a world where people are inspired to leverage their power and influence to contribute to a more sustainable and positive workplace.   Read the Interview [Due to a video issue, the beginning of interview is lost. Transcript begins when video was restored.] John Gies: A communication coach, that transitioned from- I see your face. Was there a question there?   Hugh Ballou: No, I love that story. Go ahead. I'm excited about that. John: When I left, what I wanted to do is I tried to look at other companies or other industries. The roads seemed to be closed. I said, What do I like doing? I love speaking in front of an audience. I love training and mentoring my teams. I love facilitating that conversation around the table where we've got different interests, maybe sales, operations, and technology trying to create a common vision, and trying to get to that with all those different points of view. I said, Why don't I become a coach and a trainer? I went to work with a company. I got a chance to do some teaching and coaching across North America and Europe around sales, sales training, presentation skills, negotiation skills. Hugh, I hate to sound stereotypical, but stereotypes do exist. The Brits were almost on time, the Germans were early all the time, the French and the Italians showed up when they wanted to show up. It was an interesting experience. The Americans unfortunately were the ones who said, “We're doing great. We don't need any help.” It was an interesting experience for me. Hugh: That's a stereotype, but it's sad, isn't it? John: It is. Yet it sounds something about us, right? Stereotypes are stereotypes in some cases. His name is going to escape me. Someone once said, “If you hear a cliché, look to the truth in the cliché. There is probably something in there that led to the cliché.” Hugh: Isn't that why they are clichés? John: Right. While I was working with them, when they had lots of clients, I was busy. When they didn't have clients, I wasn't busy, so I decided to embark on my own. Today, I work with organizations with what I call a wholehearted approach to business. It's not a name that you often think of when you think about business. But wholehearted is three pillars. There is the profit/revenue/money. I used to work with a nonprofit healthcare executive, who I will call Sister Mary. She said, “People come to me all the time and ask why we don't provide this for free.” Her response was, “If there is no money, there's no mission.” It's really making sure that we have the money to fulfill our mission. Then there is leadership. Self leadership starts. If we can't manage ourselves, we can't manage other people. Hey, Russell. Russell Dennis: Greetings. John: Then it's the impact we have. Same impact we have on our people, our clientele, our community, the environment, the whole thing. That's three pillars. Hugh: Russell, there is some background noise, so I muted you. You will have to unmute yourself when you come on. He is putting on his headset. John, I want to get those three points. Those went by fast. Let's capture those bullet points. John: There is profit. Whether we are in a nonprofit, a small business, or a big business, we can't fulfill our mission without money. People rely upon us to be here in the long haul. It's not just a dream to serve. We have to create the sustainability for our future. There is leadership. Leadership starts with self-leadership before we can lead others. I can share with you what I mean about that. When I think of one place that leadership is the weakest, it tends to be ourselves. The third pillar is impact. What impact are we having on our clients, customers, employees, communities, and stakeholders? I was really influenced by a book called Firms of Endearment. It's a good-to-great comparison of stakeholder organizations versus shareholder organizations. Stakeholders are employees, vendors, the community, the environment, and shareholders. They outperform the S&P by 16X. They outperform the good-to-great companies by a factor of 10X. This lasted even through the Great Recession we just went through. For me, it's how we take care of all the people in our organizations instead of just focusing on one limited subset of our stakeholders. Hugh: Absolutely. We teach those very same things. But it's good to have you on here because people don't listen to us. We're so much in sync with that. John Maxwell in his 21 irrefutable laws of leadership has the law of the lid. You hit the ceiling of the lid, and your organization can't progress any further than your ability to lead. That is true over and over. Our boards, our teams, our cultures are a reflection of our leadership. You may or may not know I am a musical conductor. What they see is what I get. What I practice in real life as a conductor works in the board room, works with the staff, works with the volunteers. It really doesn't matter where we're leading; the concepts are the same. Russell is coming in from a remote location. He was trying to find a connection last we spoke. Russell is the one who connected with you and suggested you be our guest today. I have looked over your website. It's good stuff with some nice design. I am impressed with what you do. Thanks to Russell for finding you and finding the synergy. One thing you said was about the mindset. Thinking about the profit, leadership, and impact, and the stakeholders. [Audio issue] Clergy, people like that. Maybe even major donors. If you want to get money, you want to make sure you demonstrate impact. We want to see a difference. [Video freeze] Did I lose you? I'm here. Talk about that a minute, and where that fits into your thinking, how people misperceive profit, how people misperceive leadership. Can you hear me? I think he's frozen. Maybe, we're having a technical issue today, folks. So maybe we'll get back together. John, he showed up over there. We seem to be having some technical issues. John, your video dropped out. There you are. Russell? Same neck of the woods as him. Is there an internet outage out there? Russell: I am downtown preparing for the GlobalMindED event. We have leaders here, global-minded. It's a nonprofit that provides services to help first-generation college students connect with employers. Very big event coming up here. Starting tomorrow. It will be running through Friday. That's where I'm at. Helping with that, looking to set up interviews with leaders and coverage of the event so we have things to talk about. Hopefully, John is back with us. He has done a lot of work. He started out with healthcare organizations and started seeing some leadership challenges around that. He has done a lot of work and worked with a lot of organizations here in the Denver area to deal with some of the bottlenecks you experience with leadership. When those bottlenecks are prevalent, you can run into issues with funding. He wrote a book about that. That is one thing I want to ask him about later and have folks get access to that. It's a very good book. Hugh: We did a teaser about the book. We haven't told anybody about it yet. John, before the technology devil came in here and ate up your feed, I was talking about the misconception of the word “profit” with nonprofits, and how boards have gotten into a negative groove. Do you want to talk about that a minute? Then I will hand it over to Russell, who is the one with the real tough questions. John: Great. Yeah. If I understand you, the question is profit versus nonprofit? It's interesting. Russell did this for a long time. There really is no difference. If there is no money, there is no mission. We have to generate enough profit, retained earnings, income, whatever you want to call it, so we can redistribute it. I often encounter both in the corporate world from healthcare providers who were nonprofit, and nonprofits I have volunteered with over the years, that money is not the big thing. It's all about service. It's all about serving the customer, the patients, our clientele. If you can't keep the lights on, you can't deliver any service. I feel like I'm rambling a bit. This is where my wholeheartedness comes from. If you look at the way businesses are being structured today, more and more of them are being structured to deliver a different kind of value than just the bottom line. There are benefit corporations. There are LLCs that are for-profits embedded within nonprofits. There is a whole host of ways we can use our work, I have air quotes up there, to do good in the world. I think it was Kahlil Gibran who said, “Work is love made visible.” Regardless of what we're doing, we should be able to bring love into the world, or wholeheartedness, even at a profit. Hugh: We generate income because we generate value. Russell has helpful observations and questions. I'm going to park for a minute and let him participate. Thank you, Russ for being here. I know it was a challenge getting on today. Russell: Thanks. It's good to be here. I know John is an amazing person. I am glad I met you. One of the things that you and I talked about over coffee was the notion of value, and how that is being redefined today. Folks that are running businesses to make a profit often talk in terms of value. It seems to be a word that nonprofit leaders haven't wrapped their arms around yet. Even if they do, some of the team may not be aware of what exactly is value. How do you ramp up those discussions when you are talking to nonprofit organizations in terms of speaking to value and what that means to the different audiences they serve? John: What a great question. Nonprofits deliver such value. Whether it's providing a roof over our heads, food and shelter. They look and say, “That's what we are giving to our clientele, people who need that value.” They're also delivering value to the donors and people who are fundraisers. I met with a young man who moved here from D.C. His whole background is in philanthropy. If I'm a donor, the example I was thinking through on this is do you remember Sally Struthers and the Feed the Children campaign from years ago? She would come on TV and see all these images of hungry children. We would make a donation. We got a letter from that child. We are in relationship to that child. Now there is this warm, fuzzy feeling of, I, as a donor, am getting real value from that donation in my heart. What happens for a lot of us today is we don't think about how we're delivering value to all of our stakeholders, be they fundraisers, donors, clientele, you have different kinds of value to each one of them. For a donor, one of the big questions donors all have is, “If I give you money, will it go to the end user, or will it go to administrative costs?” There are a whole host of people who are doing valuations and rankings around that. How can I pluck John's heartstring? How can I pluck Russell's heartstrings? A friend of mine had a daughter who came into the world with a lot of physical challenges. In Children's Hospital for years. Her mom was in and out. If I deliver a message to her that talks about children and supporting people while they are waiting for a child to come out of the hospital, that is delivering value to me because it sings and resonates with me. Does that make sense? Russell: That's the trick. That's the challenge a lot of for-purpose enterprises (as we prefer to call them, a term given to us by one of our guests). That is the challenge. You have multiple audiences. Value is not only something that has to be quantified in material terms. It's different for every audience. The way that we relate to each other is through stories. People are discovering that. The big question is what is your story? Different people have different metrics, depending on their perspective. How important is it to have ways to measure what is valuable? How do you help nonprofits navigate that when they have these multiple audiences? How do you help them navigate figuring out what the message is for each audience? John: Really good question. When I share measurements, I think to my friend Annette, who is a good evaluator, who does research to quantify numbers and cents. When you think about a sentence or a paragraph or a story, how do you measure the ROI? What is the equation? Actually, there is a lady by the name of Nancy Duarte, who has mapped a really good storyteller. She took Martin Luther King's “I Had a Dream” speech, and mapped the structure of the speech with its peaks and valleys to lead to the enrollment of the audience in his message. To answer your question, sometimes the impact is emotion. Even though we are driven by our spreadsheets in business, those are only to back up the emotional decisions we have already made. Working with a nonprofit, when we think about the donor, we have to think about what emotions we touch on. If I am talking to a philanthropist or a fund, like The Knight Foundation, what is the emotion or feeling I want them to feel about what they're going to do for us? When I am trying to pull people off the streets as clients into my organization, how do I want them to feel? What I find most of us do is we run, run, run. And we don't stop to think about the value. It's not always what we think it is. What I counsel my clients on is it's not putting food in someone's hands. It's answering a question about the concern of who is giving them the food. I'll give you an example. Most painting contractors think they are hired to paint the house. They will tell the consumer, “We do great painting.” The reality is, the consumer is thinking, I'd like to have my house painted, but how do I know that painter will be on time, done on time, and won't leave a mess? We have to answer the questions behind the question to call those, whether it's a donor, a fundraiser, the clientele, or the public because the public can be very strong advocates for our for-purpose organizations. Great word choice by the way. I'm bouncing a bit, but that changes the whole framework of how you think about the organization. There is the nonprofit and the for-purpose. There is a withdrawal and an engagement. Good choice of words there. Russell: I'd like to go back to the statement of people looking at how you spend the money. I think we have seen some perception problems with the structure of an organization. A lot of people want to write checks for programs, but they don't necessarily want to pay the nonprofit's rent. You have to have a structure to deliver a program. But if you are running the organization delivering the programs, you have to be efficient. You have to be good stewards of the resources entrusted to you. Talk about some of the things you do when working with organizations of any stature to navigate that. John: When you say stewardship, are you talking about attracting money? Are you talking about managing expenses? Russell: Taking care of the money entrusted to you. Making the best use of it and maximizing value with it. Taking good care of it. John: A great question. Years and years ago, this will surprise you. I ran into a nonprofit collection agency. This was an organization embedded within another organization. Their money was to support the organization they were embedded in. For them, they could have really good expenses and really nice cars and really great lifestyles, but a lot of that wasn't coming back to what was originally meant for. I contrast that with the man who I was telling you about earlier who sits on the board of a nonprofit. Someone came in and said, “We are getting ready to do our new benefits. We want to have a nine-month maternity leave. We want to have 35 days of PTO.” He said, “Wait a minute. How can we do that? That is stealing from our organization and our constituents.” The easy answer for you is the mindset. What are we really here to do? Are we here to serve, or are we here to take? My experience is the more we deliver into the world, the more we give, the more we receive in return without having to strive for that. The way I work with most of my customers is to help them attract the stakeholders they need. What prompted our conversation was this book, The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough. What that is about is to get leads. How do I get people who are interested in coming to my organization, whether it's a client or a donor? We will often think, They will find us. It's not who you know; it's who knows you. We have to craft a message that resonates with those people. Hugh: John, hold that book up again. Remember my age and mental condition. Tell us about the book, John. John: It's called The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough. It's how to find revenue for your business in 45 minutes. Hugh: 45 minutes? John: Yes. Hugh: What takes so long? That's pretty fast. That got my attention. John: It's simple. Think about the real estate agent who tells you, “I sell real estate, commercial and residential, up and down the range.” Here in Denver, there are 20,000 real estate agents. Contrast that to the one who says, “I help millennials find the loft of their dreams in downtown Denver.” Even though I am not a millennial, I am far past the millennial stage, I will remember that message. When I hear someone say they are looking for a loft, I can make the hook. If you ask yourself, What would that do for my business? You can find money really fast. When you talk about how do I make an offer that is so compelling that I can come into relationship with you? Maybe it's I sign up for your newsletter. I hear stories about the organization how you are changing lives. When it comes time to write a check, I am more likely to write a check. There is an organization I do some work with here called Goodwill to Work. I get to work with high school students as they are preparing to enter the work force: mock interviews, reviewing portfolios, reviewing resumes. It gives me great faith in the future of ourselves. When they come looking for money, I am more open to that because I am invested in that. It's helping the business owner, to answer your question, look at the five areas that drive 80% of their growth. It's leads, how to turn leads into customers, how to create an offer that gives more value so they are willing to spend more money with me, and quit discounting. You have to sell more of the product to get the same. Hugh: There is a correlation here. We talk about selling to churches. Churches say, “We don't sell.” Then what is evangelism? I talk to generic nonprofits about business models. No, we are a nonprofit. People are supposed to give everything. That does not mean you can beat up your employees. That is why the burnout rate is about 50% with executive directors. You are moving into the mindset. It's a social entrepreneurial mindset. You talked about businesses having a triple bottom line. I think nonprofits should have multiple bottom lines. One of them should be retained earnings. Russell, why don't you weigh in on this? You used to work for an agency who had three letters. It's about where the money goes. We need another number for profit, and we need another way to look at accounting so overhead is really clear. Overhead goes to the people we serve. The words for profit are uncomfortable. Russell: When people in our circles call it “surplus,” but the bottom line is you have to bring in more than you push out. If you bring in more than you push out, you become what is known as sustainable. Operating with a surplus is important because you have to be prepared for all types of contingencies. There are things that happen. Mother Nature, for example. You have fires, floods, hurricanes, different events that impact different businesses that impact the nonprofits on the ground as well. It's important to operate at that surplus. When it comes to overhead, which is everything that isn't directly poured into the services, people think of that in terms of costs versus an investment. If it's an investment, you get a good return on that. That means the management is taking care of the assets. They are providing superior service. They are effective and efficient at keeping costs under control. But you still have that structure there so you can go out and create more impact, as it were. The impact is in the eyes and ears of the beholders. I know John has heard this multiple times. John, you deal with it in for-profits and nonprofits when it comes to talking about impact. What is your experience with that word? Do you find that it is overused or misused? How do you help people frame that in a way that is balanced? John: I play with the word “balance.” If there is a balance, we are going to disrupt it. It's more how do we create harmony around it? Impact is in the eyes of the beholder. Again, it's about- I find this with myself often. I get up, sit down at my desk, and start working. When I get done, I have done a lot, and think about what impact I actually have. The first step is to slow down. As Stephen Covey said, “What is the end in mind?” What impact do I want to have? One client recently, the impact she wanted to have was more visibility in her organization. If that's what I want to have, if that's my end in mind, how do I have to make you feel to get that visibility? Now that I know those two questions, I can ask myself, “Who do I have to be to bring it?” In terms of messaging, what do I want them to experience? A great example. I had a customer the other day tell me. We often think about painting as putting a coating on the wall. For this company, it is a customer experience. The experience that you and I as a homeowner experience for you painting. In the case of the Rocky Mountain Microfinance Institute, what impact do they have on their small business owners as they compete in a 12-week boot camp for a microloan? The answer is they get 95% of their loans are repaid. Those companies are still in business years later. Every time I go, there is someone who would not have gotten a job in the corporate world who has created a successful business because they went through a 12-week boot camp to learn basic kinds of things. The impact is how are they feeling? What are the net results? It's all of that. Does that answer your question? Russell: That does, yes. For anybody who is out there making a difference, there are all these measures. How people measure things is critical. It's getting out there, being of service, and doing that better than others efficiently and effectively as you possibly can. There are a lot of tools that leaders need to have in order to drive value, in order to grow as an organization. What are the most basic tools that you give your clients when you start working with them initially? Are there some key basics that are missing in the large quantity? Or some things that leaders overlook? In that sense, what are some of the things that you find nonprofit leaders overlook more frequently than not?   John: Great question. I think there are two big opportunities, whatever your work is. The first one is really getting clear and planting your flag on who you serve. Being clear that we are in this to serve children, sick children, healthy children, starving children, whatever the service is. And then nobody else. We all think we can serve everybody. We want to serve all sorts of people. Until we plant the flag and say this is who we serve, how we serve, and why we serve, we are noise. Russell, you know this because you're in Denver. There are 11,000 nonprofits in the Denver/Boulder community. Many of them are duplicating services. It's noise in the marketplace. How do they stand out? Planting the flag, being clear, and saying, “I am for the 10% that this resonates with.” Because then they will find us. We will get some of the other people who will be in that outer circle who will be attracted to us. We have to call our tribe to us. From the business standpoint, that is the biggest thing. I get this. I want to serve everybody, too. We have to get clear on who we serve, how we serve, and why we serve. Russell: The idea of niching down and picking a category is frightening for both business owners and nonprofit leaders. I know I've had movement within my own business of who do you serve, will there be scarcity. I think scarcity thinking is terrible for the mindset of an entrepreneur regardless of the tax status of the organization he/she runs. How do you have that conversation with people who may be apprehensive about the idea of niching down and being more focused and targeted? John: It's history. It's experience. I'm working with a company right now. They have been doing Groupons to call in their clientele. I finally got him to stop that because what he would get is people coming in looking for the discount all the time, but they weren't coming back to purchase more. He recognized that is not the clientele he wants to serve. He wants to serve the people who really care about what he delivers. When he gets one of them, they don't question his cost. They know he can trust him, he will deliver the service, and they will walk away with value. You have to ask people to step out on faith and try it. I have yet to have someone who tries it fail at it. I just had this conversation with a lady at a digital marketing firm this morning. She said, “Sometimes I just have to have faith. I don't have to worry about this deal or that donor or that foundation. I have to have faith that if I serve, I will be rewarded. It took me until I was in my forties to realize that my middle name is Faith. Faith plays a role in all of this.” Hugh: It does. John, you talked earlier about going to the bottom for the price. We tend to race to the bottom because we think we have to have the lowest price to attract people. There is a similar model with nonprofits. We have this money shadow. We don't want to talk about money, and we don't want to ask for money. It's reframing the whole conversation about what you said earlier about value. What we're talking about is value. Money is an exchange. We have to pay the rent. We have to pay the salaries of those good people we employ. Talk about this thing with money. Do you see what I'm talking about? Is there a similarity with entrepreneurs looking at everyone else and pricing themselves under it? That's not a good way to do it. Nonprofits are asking for too little money. John: I lost your audio there. It's a good question. What I find- I grew up in sales. I'm afraid to ask for more because I was afraid I was going to hear no. As a nonprofit, if I'm asking for donations, I don't want to hear no. Nobody wants to hear no because they are afraid of being outcast. I wrote this on a blog post not too recently. I came to a realization. I was on my way to a meeting with someone to give a presentation, and I had this voice in my head say, “Who are you? Who do you think you are?” I was in the presentation watching the audience, and I saw a couple of people on their phones. “Oh my God. They're not paying attention to me. I've lost them.” I got some of the highest marks I've ever had for a delivery. I have come to the conclusion that I want to have that voice say, “Who are you? This is not your comfort zone.” on my shoulder because I know I'm doing the work that will deliver value to my organization. I think to get to your question of how we get past that fear of asking for money or undervaluing ourselves, we step out of our comfort zone and realize the value that we bring. I have yet to have an experience where I have said, “I can step into this, even though I don't know where it's going to go.” that hasn't delivered value. All too often, we think if we don't know exactly how it's going to happen, we don't want to step into it because we are afraid it might go wrong. Russell: Life begins outside of the comfort zone. John: It really does. I was teaching a class one time. It was very dependent on a certain program running just the right way. About 20% of the class got an update from Microsoft that eliminated that functionality. What am I going to do? We'll get to it. We'll talk about it. Stay away from me. Get feedback from my tech team. Keep teaching. It was some of the highest reviews I'd ever gotten. They've asked me back several times. I want to create something going wrong in the presentation just so that there is that kind of result. When we get out of our comfort zone and into that place where it's not working exactly right, we become more present. We become more focused on what we want to deliver to our audience, whether it's one or many. One of the things I wanted to come back to, you asked me earlier about one of the biggest things that for-purpose or for-profits or anybody struggles with. I shared with you that niching idea. The other piece is more personal. It's self-accountability. We talked earlier about self-leadership. Many of us are more than willing to hold anybody accountable for what they are supposed to do. We have meetings around it. We have metrics to race for it. But the thing that we're not accountable to is our own self. The #1 appointment we break on our calendar is the one we set with ourselves. I might sit down and say, I need to plan my budget for next quarter. But if the phone rings, I will pick up the phone instead of working on that budget. Or I might decide I want to lose ten pounds. I will quit eating French fries and start running. But then it snows. When we don't hold ourselves accountable, we can't hold other people accountable. When we start breaking promises to ourselves, we start disbelieving ourselves when we say we can get something done. So part of it is keeping promises to ourselves. Russell: It's interesting that people make commitments to others they won't make to themselves. I think that is a human nature thing. That plays into what's best. There are a number of people who talk about self-care and taking care of yourself. One of the things about leader burnout is people drive themselves far too much and don't necessarily take care of themselves. When you come across executives you're working with, a lot of times they are burned out, what is the first thing you tell them as far as taking care of themselves? How do you go about finding out if that's the problem they do have?   John: It's about creating psychological safety. We can do this in our own organizations and families. We want to create safety so that people can be and bring their whole self into the conversation. I am a child of the ‘80s. Greed is good. We have to put up a front. If you remember the shoulder pads from back then, we literally put our armor on. But the reality is when we can bring our whole self into a conversation, we don't have to carry the stress of trying to be someone we're not. The first part is bringing psychological safety. People will begin to open up and tell us what is really wrong in our lives. I tell people when they are working with me, “There is a lot to do, but you have to schedule two hours a week for you to sit back and think about, “What do I want to do this week? What happened last week? What did I get done? Celebrate! What did I not get done? What will I do to move that forward?” All too often, we run from task to task to task to task. We don't slow down to shift our state to move into the next meeting. I work with a lot of people who have nine meetings a day. That's incredible. When do you get your work done? I see three. Hugh: We're coming to the last minutes of our interview. I want to give you a few minutes to talk about one of the most important topics: communication. In 32 years of working with organizations, there has never been an organization who brought it up as one of the top topics. In a quick overview, I want you to talk about why that is significant in the work that you do. Then I will have a sponsor message before giving it back to you for a closing thought. Then Russell will end this interview. John, there are a lot of good sound bites, I must say. John, what is missing in communication? What do we need to do to make it better? John: There are four things we need for effective communication. One is clarity. If we are not clear with our message, I ran across this the other night. It's from Yo-Yo Ma. If we don't have clarity of message, we are just noise. What happens all too often is I tell you I'm looking for a dog. You will tell me, “You should get a Labrador.” Russell will tell me that I need a terrier. Someone else will tell me a shepherd. I am allergic to most dogs, and my wife doesn't want anything over 20 pounds. If I had been clear in what I was looking for, you would be clear in your response. Slowing down to get clear. Two is respect. Every organization you and I work with has respect in their manual, their mission statement, or their vision statement. Yet 94% of the workforce reports having uncivil behavior in the last year. 54% in the last month. This comes from Harvard Business Review. What does disrespect look like? It might not be holding the door open. It might be perceived disrespect. But what we have to think about how do we create psychological safety? Even if you are a high performer, if you are not treating people right, we need to help you move to a place where your humor is appreciated. Candor. Everyone wants more candor. If I were to show you my slide, there would be a burning plane behind me because NASA did research that said commercial airline pilots in a simulator that gave them a crisis, there were three outcomes. One, the captain took control of the plane and crashed it. Two, the captain said, “Crew, I need some help.” Everyone contributed, shared information, and worked together. The plane landed safely. The third one was the interesting one. The captain said, “Help me!” The crew said, “You got this.” They crashed almost as often as the first one. Why? Because the captain created an environment where candor was not appreciated. What happens in our organizations if we are not open to candor? What are we not learning about? The last piece is attention. What are we focused on? How many times have you told your child, “Don't spill the milk?” What happened? Hugh: Spill the milk. John: When we tell people, “Stop complaining. Stop smoking. Stop fighting.” they don't hear stop. The brain doesn't hear stop. Let's focus on what we want. Those four things are what we need for good communication. Hugh: Don't be late to the meeting. Those four are clarity of message- John: Clarity, respect, candor, attention. Hugh: John, a lot of good sound bites. You are so well-read. I love this thing about the clarity of the dog. A guy goes up to an intersection in Denver to a guy with a dog and says, “Does your dog bite?” The guy says, “No.” He reaches down to pet the dog, and the dog takes a big chunk out of his arm. He said to the guy, “I thought you said your dog doesn't bite.” The guy says, “That's not my dog.” It's an old joke, but it's a good example of what you're talking about. We are assuming that's his dog because it's standing next to him. We talk about how leaders set up problems. Then we make them worse. This candor and autocratic leadership is not what we do. Thank you for this. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* Before Russell closes out this really helpful interview, what thought do you want to leave with people today? John: I thought in preparation for this. I talked to a couple of colleagues who are active in the nonprofit community. What they shared with me is one of the big stressors for nonprofits is resiliency. They are overstressed, under-resourced, struggling against how do we deliver value to our constituents? I thought what would be helpful to them is to acknowledge the stress is there. Leaders paper over the stress or frustration. Until we admit there is something there, we can't deal with it. If we don't admit it, our team is looking to us and thinking there is something you're not telling us. So acknowledge it. Have a little bit of grace. We are all doing the best we can. Everybody is doing something for their own reasons. Let's get clear about what's going on. Be accountable to yourself and to others. When everybody is doing what they are supposed to do, and I don't have to pick up after you and you don't have to pick up after me, there is less stress in the organization. Clarity of values, beliefs, and behaviors. Making sure we all agree what we want to do to serve our organization and our constituents. Appreciation of ourselves and others. We go from day to day to day, from win to win to win, and we don't stop and celebrate. Celebrate the things you have done well. This has been a lot of fun. Russell: Thank you very much, John. I appreciate that. It's been an enlightening conversation. Always remember that honesty without compassion is brutality. How we talk to each other and work with each other is critical inside so we can serve the audiences we can serve. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Behind the scenes conversation with a bunch of young entrepreneurs. On today’s episode, Russell talks to a class of young entrepreneurs about what it’s like to start and run your own business. Here are some of the fun things in today’s episode: How he got started with his first business of potato guns! He talks about what are the hardest, easiest, and best parts of being an entrepreneur. They discuss how risk is like riding a teeter-totter on a cliff… So listen here to enjoy this special, fun episode where Russell talks to kids about entrepreneurship. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. I’ve got a really fun special episode for you today. Recently I had someone in our community contact us and say “Hey, we run a school with kids from (I don’t even know how young), from first grade up to sixth grade.” I think the oldest kids were about 12 years old. Anyway, they said, “We’d love to have these kids come over and ask you questions about your company, about being an entrepreneur and all that kind of stuff.” So I thought it’d be really, really fun, so we had them come over this last week. And they’d been studying entrepreneurship and business and they were doing a bunch of things, and they had to make a pitch deck to pitch to investors, they were going that night to actually go sell stuff. So this little cute entrepreneurial classroom of kids came here to the Clickfunnels offices, and I thought, you know I’m going to record this just in case anything cool comes out of it. And it turned out to be really, really fun. This is an episode that if you have kids, you should probably pull your kids in and listen with them. I think you’ll hear some new stories and get some ideas whether or not you have kids or not. But this is definitely a presentation geared towards children and getting them excited about entrepreneurship and kind of telling them some stories about how I built my company. It was funny, we had this little microphone box you can throw to them, and they were all fighting over it, they wanted to hear their voice. So you’ll hear a little bit of that. I had my brother try to edit out any of the long pauses, or the awkward things. So hopefully it’s listenable to listen to everything. And it’s kind of fun, I think 8 or 9 kids asked the exact same question, so I had to re-answer it different ways every single time. So hopefully you guys catch that in there. One of the girls talked about entrepreneurship, I asked who wants to be an entrepreneur, and she’s like, “No.” and I’m like, “Why not?” and she’s like, “It’s kind of like a teeter totter, where you’re off a cliff where either you fall of a cliff and you die, or you don’t.” or something like that. And I was, “That is the best explanation of entrepreneurship I’ve ever heard.” Anyway, this is just a fun episode I wanted to post here for you guys. I hope you enjoy it. Again, if you have kids, maybe have them listen in as well. And with that said, I will queue up the theme song and I hope you guys enjoy this Q&A session from the kids group that came into our office the other day. What’s up guys? How are you guys doing? Kids: Good. Russell: Welcome to Clickfunnels. We’re excited to have you guys here. Why do what? Kid: Why do you sound like you have a microphone? Russell: Because I have a microphone. Check this out, I have a microphone here. This is called the catch box, you hold it like this and you talk into it. I wanted to this so that way when we ask questions we can make sure we hear everything. Because it’s kind of fun, and sometimes this room gets loud because we have all these super heroes everywhere that sometimes mess things up. So we’re going to practice this to make sure you guys can make this work. So who wants to tell me their name? Kid: My name’s Garrett. Kid2: My name is Paxton. Kid3: My name’s Brynn. Kid4: My name’s Jack. Kid5: My name’s Liam. Russell: Alright, so my first question for you guys is do you guys know what my name is? Kids: No. Russell: What’s my name? Do you want to catch it? Kid: Jack! It’s Clickfunnels. Kid2: Russell. Russell: You’re right, good job. Okay, thank you. Russell. I am one of the founders of Clickfunnels, which is where you guys are at today. So I heard you guys have been learning about entrepreneurship, is that true? Kids: Yes. Russell: How many of you guys want to be entrepreneurs when you grow up. Kid: No thanks. Russell: No thanks. How come, I want to know why you don’t want to. Kid: The reason I don’t want to be an entrepreneur is well, first of all, I’m afraid of messing up and I don’t like the risk that I’m taking. Russell: Who has a cool thing about being an entrepreneur? Kid: One cool thing is that you can be almost anything that isn’t already a corporation. You could be like a UT bridge kind of entrepreneur. Like Clickfunnels is made by entrepreneurs and it’s made for entrepreneurs as well. Stuff like that. Russell: Okay, so I’m going to tell you guys my story real quick about how I became an entrepreneur, and then I’ll let you guys ask questions because I heard you guys had some good questions. So I didn’t know I was going to be an entrepreneur my whole life, but when I was…how old are you guys? Kid: 6 Kid2: 9 Kids: crosstalk Russell: Who’s the oldest? Kid: 6 to 12 Russell: How old are you? Kid: 12 Russell: 12 okay. So I was about your age, I was about 12 or 13 years old and I didn’t know what I was going to be when I grew up. I had no idea. I remember I was watching TV one night, and late at night there’s these things called infomercials. Any of you guys ever seen an infomercial before? Where they try to sell stuff? And there was this guy on the infomercial, he was selling this book about how to make money in the newspapers, and I was like, that is the coolest thing in the world. And he was selling, you had to pay $40 to buy this kit, and I did not have $40, so I begged my dad for money and he said, “No.” He said, “If you want to have that money, you have to earn it.” So I went out and mowed lawns for a whole month to earn $40 and then I took that and bought this kit on TV that taught me how to make money with newspapers, which was kind of cool. So that’s when I first started learning, I was about your age when I started learning about it, so you guys are in a good spot. So then fast forward to when I was in college. I was going to school and I didn’t know what I wanted to be. I liked to wrestle, do we have any wrestlers in here? What? We got a couple of wrestlers. So I’m a wrestler, so I was wrestling in high school and I loved it and then I started wrestling in college. I came to Boise State to wrestle, and then I met my beautiful wife and I fell in love with her and I wanted to marry her. But guess what you have when you get married? Do you know what this means? Kids: Money. Russell: Money. And I didn’t have any money, I was completely broke. I didn’t even have a job. And I was like, I gotta do something or else I’m going to be in big trouble and my wife’s not going to have a house to live under if I’m going to marry her. So I tried to figure out how to make money, but I couldn’t get a job because I was wrestling. So I gotta figure out a different way to do this. So I thought, you know I could do, I could quit wrestling, but I love wrestling. I was like maybe I could become an entrepreneur and try to sell something of my own. And I didn’t know what to do. So I started trying to learn how to do, how to make money. I was trying to think what my first big idea was going to be. And I tried a whole bunch of things, and guess what, none of them worked. I tried thing after thing to make money and none of them worked, and then one day, one of my friends said, “Russell, do you want to make a potato gun?” and I was like, “What’s a potato gun?” How many people here know what a potato gun is? Kids (inaudible) Russell: So this is a potato gun, and I didn’t even know what it was. I was like, “What’s a potato gun?” and he said, “What a potato gun is, you make it out of sprinkler pipes and you get a potato and put it here and you jam it, so a potato would be right here, and you get a broom and push it down so it pushes it all the way down to right here. And then over here there’s a big hole. So you spray hairspray in here, and you put a cap over the top of it, and then guess what happens?” Kid: It goes boom. Russell: Inside of here there’s a whole bunch of fuel and there’s a potato stuck right here. So in the cap, and I couldn’t find the cap this morning because I think somebody stole it, or somebody just misplaced it, there’s a little igniter, and if you click the button on the igniter it makes a little spark inside of this hole right here, and that spark lights the hairspray on fire. And the hairspray is like, ‘Ugh” and it wants to explode, but it can’t. But guess what it does? It takes the potato right here and goes, pfft, shoots it out and it goes like a hundred yards. How many of you guys know how far a hundred yards is? Have you ever been to a football game before? A hundred yards is the whole football field. It shoots it all the way across a whole football field. Is that crazy? So he told me that, my friend told me that. And I was like, “That sounds like so much fun. Let’s do that.” So we went and we didn’t know how to make it though. So we went on Google and typed in “how to make a potato gun, and then people had different instructions, “This is how you cut the pipe” and “This is how you glue it together” and “You gotta buy pipes this size and this size and this and this.” And we read all the instructions about how to make it, and then we went home that night and we started making it. And we had so much fun. It took us three or four days to build our first potato gun, and when it was done we went out by the airport and we started shooting potatoes, and it was so much fun. But then, guess what happened? We were shooting potatoes and all the sudden this big huge jeep, that had camouflage on it, started coming toward us. And I was like, “What’s going on?” and they drove all the way up and out came this big, huge army guy, with a big old mustache. And he walks over, “What are you guys doing?” I’m like, “We’re shooting potatoes.” And he’s like, because we were behind the airport, he said, “You’re on government land. You cannot be shooting things back here.” And I thought I was going to go to jail. I was so scared. I was like, “Ah, okay. Okay.” And he’s like, “How does that thing work?” So I kind of told him, and he’s like, “It doesn’t go that far.” I’m like, “No, it really does.” And he’s like, “Prove it.” I’m like, “Really?” so he said, “Yeah.” So he started shooting guns with me, this big police man who was going to arrest me. And he shot like 5 or 6 potatoes with me, and then he’s like, “Okay, you can’t shoot back here or I’ll have to put you in jail. So go shoot them out in the forest or something.” And he let us go and I was like, “Oh good, I thought I was going to go to jail.” So luckily I didn’t. So then, we had so much fun making these, they were so much. The next day I went back to school…yeah? Kid: Why didn’t he arrest you for having an illegal and dangerous weapon? Russell: That’s a good question. He said, “How come he didn’t arrest you for having an illegal and dangerous weapon?” I think it’s because he thought it was kind of cool. It could have been worse. Anyway, luckily he didn’t. I don’t know why, but I’m super grateful he didn’t arrest me. So anyway, I went back to school on the next Monday and I was sitting there thinking, “What should my business be? What should my business be?” and all the sudden, boom, the light bulb went off in my head. Have you guys ever had that before? You have an idea? I was like, “What if there’s more people besides me that want to make a potato gun? What if I’m not the only person.” And I thought, I’m going to see if there’s more people besides me. So on the internet, what’s cool is it will show you how many people are typing in different searches in Google. And guess how many people were looking for potato gun plans that month? Kid: 200,000 Russell: Ooh, I wish. Kids: crosstalk Russell: 500, 100. Kids: Crosstalk Russell: So if you look at the entire world, around the whole world, there were 18,000 people searching for how to make potato guns and nobody was selling a product on how to make potato guns. I was like, “What if I made a product on how to make potato guns? I could make some money. This would be the coolest thing in the world, and I could get arrested.” So I had the idea. So then I called my friend up, his name is Nate. I said, “Nate, we’re going to make a product teaching people how to make potato guns.” And he said, “How do you do that?” and I said, “I don’t know. I’ve never done it before, but let’s figure it out.” So we borrowed a video camera from somebody and then we drove down to Home Depot, maybe it was Lowes, I can’t remember. Home Depot or Lowes, and we walked to the sprinkler isle, and I had all the sprinkler pipes and I recorded a video and said, “When you buy the sprinklers, there’s a secret, you have to make sure that the PSI is right. So if you look on here it talks about the Pounds per Square this thing can handle.” Anyway I summarized how much that is, how much these are, and what sizes. So we made a video of us buying all the pieces of the gun. Then we drove to my wife’s work, where they had a little workshop, and we made a video us, recording gluing the thing together and making the actual potato gun. Then we drove and filmed us at school writing out all the different formulas and how, you know, all the different plans on how to make potato guns. And we took all those different things and we put it on these videos and then we made a dvd. And this was my very first dvd, it’s called HowToMakeAPotatoGun.com. And this dvd taught people how to make a potato gun, just like that. So this was my very first product ever made, and there’s the dvd inside. Do you guys even know what dvd’s are? You’ve seen those before. Kids: Yeah. Russell: I know, it’s a pain. It gets scratched, they have to rebuy a new one, which is good for me. Kid: Just put a bandaid on it. Russell: I don’t think you can put a bandaid on a dvd, but that is a good idea. Alright, so this was my very first dvd, and I was so excited, I’m like, “Now what do I do? How do I sell it?” and I didn’t know how to sell it. So I went and got this website, howtomakeapotatogun.com and then I put up a webpage to sell it. And it had a little picture of the dvd. I said, “Here’s a dvd teaching people how to make potato guns, just like the one that I just made. And I started buying ads. So when somebody would go to google and type in “How to make a potato gun.” They would see my ad and see, “Do you want to learn how to make a potato gun? Click here.” And they’d click on my ad, come to my webpage, and a lot of them started buying this dvd for like $27, they’d buy the dvd. And that’s how I got started as an entrepreneur, I started selling this dvd. I sold a whole bunch of them for a while, and that was my very first product. Any questions about that at all? Kid: What was the hardest part about making it? Russell: Ooh, good question. The hardest part about making it is I didn’t know how to edit videos. So we recorded them on this camera, and then I didn’t know what to do. So I had to read books about how you get them from the video camera onto the computer. So then we got them on the computer. And it’s like, how do you turn it into a dvd? I didn’t know how to do that. So then we had to edit the thing, then we had to glue it together, put it together, then we had to burn it on dvd. So learning how to actually make the dvd was the hardest thing for me. Kid: What was the most difficult thing about making your whole business? Russell: The most difficult thing about making my whole business was probably believing it was going to work. A lot of times… Kid: It seems so fun. Russell: A lot of times we have an idea but we’re like, is that really gonna work? We have to do all this work, should I do it or not? So the hardest part is just believing it will actually work the very first time. Kid: And how did you make it? Russell: Alright, who else has got a question? Kid: What was the easiest part about making your business? Russell: The easiest part, man, there’s not a lot of easy parts. There’s a lot of hard parts. The easiest part was probably after it started working. Because there’s a lot of hard work to get it started, then when it started working, then guess what? The webpage was there, my ads were there, and I’d go to school every day, I’d go to wrestling practice, and while I was goofing off and having fun, people were going to Google, type it in, click on the ad and they would buy. So even when I was sleeping at night, people started paying me money. So I was making money in the morning, at night, when I was on vacation, the money kept coming in. So that was the best part. After all the hard work was done, then it just started making money whether I was there or not. Kid: What, how much money did you make every day? Russell: Good question. So this product, this was my very first one, so it never made me tons of money. But it was making probably between 25 and 50 dollars a day. But for me, how many of you guys think that $50 a day would be amazing. So it was tons. When I was going to college I was like, $50 a day is a lot of money for me. It was really, really cool. Good question. Kid: My name is Paxton. Russell: Thanks Paxton, you’re awesome. Kid: What inspired you to make the potato gun? Russell: Ooh, good question. So when I was trying to figure out what to make, I was looking around and I saw a lot of other people selling things. So I was looking at what’s everyone doing? And I had a friend, one friend who was making a product teaching people how to do baby sign language. So I was like, that’s kind of cool. Because she was really good at teaching babies sign language. I had another friend that was teaching people how to do hair bows. They’d make hair bows, any girls have hair bows? They’d make these really cool hair bows, and they had a dvd teaching that. So I saw three or four things, I saw all these people who were really good at something, they made a dvd teaching it, and I was like, “I’m not good at anything. What could I do?” and then when I made that potato gun I was like, “What if that’s my thing? What if I make potato guns?” So that was my very first, that’s how I got the inspiration. Kid: What was your biggest regret? Russell: My biggest regret…hm. Probably my biggest regret is I didn’t start sooner. I waited for like 2 years before I made my first product. I was thinking about it, talking about it, I was scared. So I didn’t do it. I wish I would have started faster, because I would have started having success faster. Kid: How much money did you make every year? Russell: Every year? Well the first year I didn’t make very much money. I made maybe $10,000. And then it started getting bigger and then one year I made a million dollars in a year, which was so cool. And then it got bigger, and then Clickfunnels, this company now, I’ll tell you what we do in a minute, but Clickfunnels did over a hundred million dollars last year. What would you guys buy with that? Just kidding. Kid: I’d buy the company. Russell: You’d buy the company. Kid: What was your favorite part? Russell: My favorite part? I love when somebody buys your product and then they use it, and they have success, that’s the best. So someone who’d buy it, they’d make a potato gun and they’d send me a picture, “Look at my potato gun that I made?” Yes, that’s awesome. I helped them do it. Kid: How many did you sell in the first week or month of you releasing it. Russell: Good question. First week, I don’t think I sold any. First month, I probably sold 5 or 6. And then it got to the point where I was selling about one a day. So probably 30 a month. One or two a day was kind of average. Kid: Do you have any advice for people who want to be an entrepreneur or want to get what they’re doing out there. Like if you’re streaming and stuff. Russell: Yes, great question. Can I tell you a story about that? I have a friend, his name is Jacob Hiller and when he was born he wanted to be able to dunk a basketball. How many of you guys here can dunk a basketball? Kid: In a baby. Russell: How many guys dunk on a ten foot hoop? It’s hard right. I still can’t do it either. I’m not good enough. But he wanted to be able to dunk that. He loved basketball, but he couldn’t quite dunk it. He said his arms were a little bit shorter, so he couldn’t ever dunk. So he said, “I want to figure out..” He set a goal, he said, “My goal, I want to become someone who can dunk a basketball. How do I do that? I can’t dunk right now. I have to learn some exercises.” So he stared reading books and started studying, how can I increase my vertical. That’s what they call it, you’re vertical, how high you can jump. So he started learning, started watching videos, and reading books, and then that’s how he started. Then he started learning some stuff and it started helping him. And he thought, “I’m going to start a YouTube channel teaching people what I’m learning.” So he started this YouTube channel, and in the YouTube channel he would learn something. So he would learn, if you do a certain exercise it will make you jump higher. So he’d show people how to do the exercise and posted a video on that. Then he’d post another video learning other ways to increase your vertical. And he had a whole bunch of videos and started posting them on YouTube because he was loving it. He was learning it and then he would share it as he was learning what he was learning. And then one day he ended up having about 10,000 people who were following him on YouTube, and he’s like, “This is so cool. I have all these followers that are following me and I don’t know what to do with it.” So he asked those guys, “What do you guys want me to, what can I do?” and someone said, “I wish you’d put together a book that would teach me all the different ways you learned how to jump.” And he’s like, “Okay, that’s kind of cool. I could do that.” So he wrote an ebook. Do you guys know what an ebook is? Kid: Yeah, it’s like a book that’s online and it’s really cool. Russell: Yeah. So he wrote his first ebook and all it was, was a whole bunch of different ways that he used to jump higher. So he’d show, “Here I tried this exercise and how I did it.” And then “This exercise” and he showed like a hundred different ways to jump higher and he put it together and he called the book The Jump Manual, teaching people how to jump higher. So he got that all done, he started being excited about something, then he started talking about it every single day until he got a lot of people following him, then he came out with his very first product, which was an ebook. I think he sells the ebook for $37, and he makes 3 or 4 thousand dollars a day, every single day, selling that book. But what’s crazy, he did that while he was in college, then he met his wife and they fell in love and got married, and they said, “Where should we move to?” and he said, “Our business is on the internet, we don’t have to live anywhere.” And they said, “What if we just picked somewhere really cool.” So his wife a globe out, a big globe. You guys know the big globes? Kid: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Russell: And they spun it like this, and said, “Ready go.” And they stopped it and it was like, “Kenya.” And they’re like, “Let’s move to Kenya.” So they got in a plane, packed up all their suitcases, they didn’t have a house yet, and they flew to Kenya, and then in Kenya they found out there’s warriors called the Maasai warriors. Have you ever heard of them before? Kid: No. Russell: Well, guess what they’re famous for? Jumping. They’re famous for jumping. They go out in these plains, in the desert and they jump. So they got to Kenya and he’s like, “There’s these guys that are great at jumping.” So he got his video camera out and said, “Teach me how to jump better.” And these warriors in the middle of the desert in Africa taught him how jump higher and he filmed it all and posted those videos online like, “I learned how to, these cool jumping tricks from these guys.” And he said, “If you like these you should go buy my book.” And more people bought his book. So he lived there in Kenya for 3 years, excuse me, 3 months and the whole time they were there people were buying his book on the internet, so he didn’t have a job, he was just living and having fun. And 3 months later they said, “Let’s move. Where should we move to? I don’t know.” So he got the globe out again, they spun it, “Here.” And it was like the Great Wall of China. They’re like, “We’re moving to China.” So they flew to China and they got to China and they’re like, “What should we do in China.” And they said, “Well what kind of exercises can we do on the great wall of china? We can sit against the wall, I can do jumps on the wall.” So they made videos of him doing all sorts of exercises on the great wall of china, and put those on YouTube and then more people bought his book. And then 3 months later they spun the globe again and picked a new spot. And they’ve been doing that now for like 8 years. They have not had a house for 8 years. Every three months they pick a new place around the world and they fly there and live there, and their internet business, people keep buying his ebook while he’s traveling the world having a good time. Is that cool? Kid: And another question, is buying ads for your video even worth it, in your opinion? Russell: Definitely. We spend about $750,000 a month buying ads. So we spend a lot of money because it’s the fastest way to get to people. There’s free ways you can do it, but it takes a lot longer. If you can buy ads, it speeds up the process a lot. Kid: But for smaller YouTubers who are trying to get out there. Russell: Yeah, so it’s good to buy ads when you have a product to sell. Because if you’re just buying ads to grow your channel, it’s hard because you’re not making any money and you’re just spending money. But if you have a YouTube channel and you’re selling something on the channel, then it makes sense to buy as long as you make more money than you’re spending. That’s all we’re looking at. I want to make sure that if I spend $1 I want to make $2. And you just kind of watch that really close. Good questions. Kid: What was the best part after you made your business? Russell: The best part is, let’s see, there’s been a lot of really, really cool parts. But I think my best part is there’s this group, have you ever heard of Operation Underground Railroad? Have you heard of it? You think so. Do you guys know what the Underground Railroad is? Did you learn about that yet in school? What’s the underground Railroad? Kid: It’s how slaves get away from their owners. Russell: Yes, the Underground Railroad, how they freed slaves back in the day. So, Operation Underground Railroad is an organization, it's called a charity, and they help save people who are enslaved. Did you know there are still people in slavery? There are little kids that get kidnapped that are put in slavery, and they think there's over 2 million kids right now that are in slavery all around the world. It's really sad. So, there's this group and they go in and they try and save these little kids. So, the most exciting thing so far is the last two years a in a row we helped raise money for Operation Underground Railroad. We raised over $2 million for them which is enough money to save almost 1,000 kids from slavery. So, of everything we've done, that's the thing that's the coolest for me. Kid: How did you get the idea of ClickFunnels? Russell: Ooh, good question. That's a great question. Ken, so after I made my potato gun… So, I made my potato gun and we were selling this, right, and then what happened is I wanted to figure out how do you make more money. I was just selling DVD, but I wanted to make more money. So, I had a friend and he said, what you need to do is you need to add an upsell. Do you guys know what an upsell is? Kid: No. Russell: Who's ever been to McDonald's before? So, you go to McDonald's and if your mom or dad says, hey, I want to order a Big Mac. Then what does the guy say at the drive-through, do you know? Goes, a Big Mac, do you want a fries and drink with that? You heard him say that before? Kids: Yes. No. Russell: That's called an upsell. Kid: I don't go to McDonald's. Russell: Good, it's bad for you. That food kills you. Anyway, but if you go, that's called an upsell. So, my friend said you should have upsells for this. I said, what does that even mean? He said, well, when someone buys potato gun DVD, what's the next thing they need? I said, well, they have to go to Home Depot and they have to buy all the pipes and all the stuff and the glue. He said, what if you put those together in a kit and then just sold the kit, and you send the kit out to people? I said, that's a cool idea. So, I found somebody to make these kits and they make a potato gun kit. Had all the pipes and everything, all the glue, everything. So, what we did was somebody would buy the DVD from me and they'd say, I want the DVD. Then the next page would say, cool, you bought the DVD, we're going to send it to you. Do you want us to put one of these kits in the mail that way you don't have to buy the pipes, you can just glue them together? Out of every single person who bought the DVD, for every three people got the DVD, one person would buy the kit right there. So, that's what we call a funnel. A funnel is where you take people through a sales process. Someone buys a DVD, and then someone buys the kit. So, that's kind of what a funnel is. I know it's kind of confusing, but that is what a funnel was. So, we did it for my own business. I did it for a lot of other people's businesses, and then one day I met this guy named Todd. He's my business partner in ClickFunnels. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia, though. You guys know where Atlanta is? Couple of you guys. So, he lives in Atlanta, way over there, and he said, what if we build software that makes it super easy for people to make websites and funnels the way that you do. So, he built the software and we decided to call it ClickFunnels. So, what we do is we help entrepreneurs and we teach them about stuff like this. Teach them how to start their own businesses and then they use ClickFunnels to build-out their web pages and their funnels. So, that's how we got the idea for ClickFunnels. And you guys know what a Funnel Hacker is on your shirt? Kid: No. Russell: A Funnel Hacker is someone who uses ClickFunnels. So, you guys are all Funnel Hackers now. So, that means you are a part of our tribe. So, all of our people they say, I'm a Funnel Hacker. Kid: What was your most exciting part of starting your business? Russell: Most exciting? So, there's this guy, he's 6'7". You know how tall that is? It's like this tall. His head's like this big, and he's super-famous. His names is Tony Robbins. Any of you guys ever heard of Tony Robbins before? Kid: Yeah. Russell: You guys have? Kids: crosstalk Russell: He could be. Anyway, Tony Robbins is cool. He was someone I saw him in movies, on TV, and he was super-famous. I always thought he was awesome. So, about 10 years ago, I got to meet him, and then he had me fly out to Fiji. You guys know where Fiji is? You do? Fiji's awesome. He owns a resort in Fiji, so I flew to Fiji and I got to speak at his seminar. Then he spoke at my seminar which was super cool, and then recently we became business partners. So, I got to be friends with somebody who was my hero for a long time, and I even became friends and business partners with him. So, that's probably the most exciting to be able to hang out with a giant, he's literally a giant. He is so cool. Kid: What was the most expensive part of your business? Russell: So, for ClickFunnels there's over 300 people that work here. Not all of them in this office, but it costs us a few million dollars a month to pay everybody who works here. So, that's by far the most expensive is all of the people. Okay. But they are amazing people, so we love it. Kid: What was the most fun part? Russell: Ooh, the most fun part? Let's see. I think the very first time I made my very first sale, that was so fun because I tried to sell something, nobody bought it. Then very first time somebody gave me money, I made $20. Someone bought something on the internet from me, I made $20. I was so excited that I called my wife up, I said, we made $20. She said, that's not very much money. I said, I know, but it's the very first time I made money on the internet. So, we went out to dinner and spent that $20 on dinner and a movie. And then guess what? Kid: What? Russell: The next day, the person who paid the $20, he asked for a refund and I had to give it back. But it was the very first one, so it was still exciting. Kid: Can we watch your potato gun video? Russell: Oh, I can give one to your teachers, if they want to make a whole class on potato guns, I don't think… But that's up to them, not to me. Kids: crosstalk Russell: That would be a cool class in school, but I think Potato Gun 101. Yes? Kid: Like, on the commercials it cost a lot of money. Have you ever been in debt from the commercials? Russell: Mm-hmm, yeah, a couple of times we tried to... A couple of times we did commercials and they didn't make any money, and we got in some debt. But we were able to pay it off. What happens a lot of times, a lot of times you'll do a lot of different commercials or ads, and sometimes some of them work and some don't work, but hopefully you get more that work than don't work. And the other thing is if you put a commercial on TV, it costs a lot of money, but if you put a commercial on Facebook, it doesn't cost very much money. Kid: What made you come up with the name ClickFunnels? What's the inspiration for that? Russell: Great question. So, we had this other company that we tried to start back in the day called ClickFusion. I was thinking that's a cool name. I don't know why we thought it was kind of cool, but guess what? That business failed three times. It kept failing, and so when we started the idea for ClickFunnels, Todd, who is my business partner, I said we should call it ClickFusion. He's like, ClickFusion always fails. It's bad luck. We should call it something different. Like what should we call it? Like Click Waffles, Waffle Funnels, Funnel Ice Cream, Funnel Cake, Funnel, and then all of a sudden he said, ClickFunnels. I was like, ooh, that sounds cool. Let's see if we could buy it, and nobody owned it. So, we're like, yes, so we bought ClickFunnels. Kid: What do you sell besides weapons of death by potato? Russell: So, besides weapon of death by potatoes? So, I've written some books. Want to see? So, I've written these books. I wrote this book right here called Expert Secrets. I wrote a book called DotComSecrets. So, I sell these books. We also do seminars where we have entrepreneurs from all around the world. They fly actually here to Boise sometimes. We actually, last week we had people here from all around the whole world and they pay us to teach them how to build funnels, and then we also sell ClickFunnels as software. So, most of our money comes from ClickFunnels from the software. We use these as coaching people on how to build businesses or it's the ClickFunnels software. That's where most of the money comes from now. Kid: Where were you originally from? Russell: I grew up in Utah. Kid: What? Russell: Yep, I grew up in Utah and then I actually, I told you I was a wrestler, remember? So, I wrestled, then I wrestled at BYU, and then BYU dropped the wrestling program, so I was like where should I got to wrestle? And Boise State had a program, so I moved to Boise, and I've been here ever since. Kid: Is it hard or easy to own your company? Russell: Ooh, good question. Some days it's really easy because I wake in the morning and I'm like, I can do whatever I want. I don't have to wake up. But some days it's really, really hard. Some days you wake up and it's like, for me I have 300 people to work for me, so if we don't make money, then where are they going to get paid from? And somebody and they have all their kids. Sometimes it's kind of a stressful thing to manage a lot of people who rely on us. So, some days it's really nice. I go on vacation for a week and not worry about it, or a couple of weeks, but some days it's really stressful. So, that's with entrepreneurship there's really good things and really scary things at the same time. Kid: Why is your logo like a tablet with gears? Russell: Oh, good question. So, when we started ClickFunnels, we needed a logo design, so we hired this guy, his name is Mantis, kind of like praying mantis, but he's Mantis. He lives over in Europe somewhere. I don't even know. And so I said I want a really cool logo, but I don't know what it looks like. So, he designed 20 different logos and a whole bunch of different ones, and that was one of the ones he designed. I was like, ooh, it's kind of cool. That was my favorite one. I like the gears because we can do gears like, on my jeep we could have gears on it. We could put gears on our T-shirts and things like that. So, that was just the favorite one I liked of all the different ones that he designed. Kid: Did you ever get like, when you wrestled, did you ever get really hurt really bad? Russell: Nothing too bad. I got hurt a little bit, but I never broke a bone or anything super bad. Kid: What was your favorite part about starting your business? Russell: I think my favorite part is my boys now are wrestling. My kids, they do a lot of sporting things, and it's cool because I can leave any time I want in the middle of the day, and go and see them. Go see them at wrestling practice, or I can do things like that. I kind of set my own schedule. So, those are my favorite things. I can set my own schedule and be able to to whatever I want. Kid: Were you nervous at all? Russell: Oh yes, all the time I get nervous. Especially sometimes I get to standup... So, this is kind of a little stage, and there's about, I think about 50 people can fit in here. But this year in February I spoke at a baseball stadium with 35,000 people in it. So, I walked on this huge stage and there's 35,000 people, and that was really scary, but it was pretty cool too. Kid: If you don't have this restrictive access, what's the next product you plan on selling if you are going to? Russell: Oh, that's a good question. I love software. The software business is fun because you create it once, and people pay you every single month for it. So, I think if I ever sold ClickFunnels or if I ever got unrestricted access to whatever, I'd probably call my business partner, Todd, up I'd say, okay, let's build some more software. This will really be fun because it's really nice. Some businesses are hard because it's like you have to ship products from China, or the supplements, you have to get all the materials and mix them all. This ones just nice because it's like we have a bunch of programmers who make the software better every single day. But people are just buying the software, they keep paying every single month. They keep using it. Kid: Also, I'm wondering where did you get your, you know, you said you had that extra pack with all the tubes and stuff, where did you get those things? Do you ship them in? Russell: Oh, the sell the kits? Kid: Yeah. Russell: There was a guy in Northern Idaho who I met who was selling potato guns online. He wasn't selling very many of them. So, I bought a kit from him and I'm like, these are really cool. So, I called him and I said, hey, you're selling these kits, I'm selling DVD, if I sell your kit and I pay you for it, will you ship it out to people? And he said, yeah. So, I think, I can't remember exactly. I think I'd pay like $50 to buy the kit from him, and I'd sell it for $200. So, basically, somebody would give me $200 and then I would send him $50, and he'd send the kit to them. It was really cool. Kid: Would ClickFunnels be something that smaller YouTubers would may be beneficial to them or would it be like- Russell: You want to be a YouTuber? No, for sure. In fact, we have a... Did you see the bathroom hallway yet or the kitchen? So, we have a really cool thing that we created, it's called the Two Comma Club. When somebody makes a million dollars inside of a funnel, we give them this huge gold record and there's two commas in it. Do you know why it's called Two Comma Club? Okay, this is why. If you draw a million dollars, this is what a million dollars looks like. That's a million dollars. How many commas are in a million dollars? Kids: Two. Russell: Oh, so we call it the Two Comma Club. So, anytime somebody makes over a million dollars, we send them a trophy like this and there's two commas it says, you're in the Two Comma Club. So, when you guys see we send them a big one like this big, and then we put a small one in our office. So, when you guys do a tour, you'll see all these all over the place. And then there's a silver one that means they made $10 million in side of funnel. So, anyway, I was going to tell you this because we have some kids right now, there's one kid who's I think... What's Caleb, Caleb's 17 or did he just turn 18? Well, anyway, one kid was like 17 or 18, he won a Two Comma Club award. We've got a couple of other kids that are teenagers that are like 15, 16 year old, that have almost won a Two Comma Club award. So, there are kids that are not that much older than you that are doing this. We had one girl who was here last week, when she was 13 years old, her mom taught her about how this whole business works, and she started selling scarves. And at 13 years old, she made over $100,000 on the internet selling scarves. Is that crazy? And then when she turned 16, she didn't want to get a driver's license because she had too much money, so she just had Ubers drive her around everywhere. So, she never got a driver's license. That's how much money she had. That be crazy? Take an Uber to school every day. Kid: If you're just selling merchandise on your channel, like you know how YouTubers sell merchandise? Russell: Yep. If you were to make some merchandise, would it be worth it to advertise it through your ClickFunnels or no? Russell: Yeah, for sure. Kid: Okay. Russell: Yep, for sure. Kid: What was the part that you found most interesting? Russell: Ooh, the most interesting? Definitely is all the different people we've had a chance to meet. So, people that started using ClickFunnels. First we didn’t know who was going to use it, and then we started meeting these amazing people. Like there's one guy, his name's Chris, and Chris had cancer. He almost died of cancer, and he figured out how to fight cancer, and he ended up not dying. So, he wrote a book called Chris Beat Cancer, and he was trying to sell it. He started selling it on ClickFunnels, and he's helped tens of thousands of people to overcome, to be able to fight cancer now from his book which is really, really cool. That was just one person, and there's so many interesting people like people selling all sorts of things. So, definitely my favorite part is just seeing all the cool people that we're helping and letting them sell more of their products to help more people. Kid: What other awarenesses do you help with? Russell: So, the main ones that we do, we do Operation Underground Railroad to help children from slavery. We go to Kenya every year. We build schools in Kenya for kids out there. And then we, a lot of the people that work with us do stuff like, one of these guys, he helps gym owners to build up their gyms, and last month... You guys know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is? Kids: Yeah. Russell: Arnold Schwarzenegger is like Mr. Olympia like 20 years, like the strongest man ever for a while, he gave $100,000 to Arnold Schwarzenegger to The Boys and Girls Program or, yeah Boys and Girls. So, we got to meet Arnold Schwarzenegger to give him $100,000 to help all these kids. So, a lot of people that we help, help tons of different organizations and charities too. It's really cool. Kid: What was the hardest part of your job? Russell: For a long time the hardest part was how to fire somebody. Oh, that was the worst. Someone works for you and they're not doing a very good job, you'd be like, I have to fire you. In fact, the first time I fired someone, guess what happened afterwards? Kids: What? Russell: I cried for like 10 minutes. It was really bad. I don't fire people anymore which is really nice. The hardest thing now is sometimes when ClickFunnels has a problems, we have 89,000 people that use our software, so like one time we were flying to London and when I was in the air, ClickFunnels went down, and everybody's websites, and everybody's Funnels went down. When I landed, people were super mad, and I got thousands of messages on my phone, everyone who was mad that all of their websites were down, and that was not very much fun. So, those are the hard parts sometimes when stuff like that happens. Kid: What's the hardest part that happened to you before, like in the start of your business? Russell: The start of my business? Twice I almost went bankrupt. Twice when I started making a little bit of money, and then I lost it all. That was the first time I had like probably six or seven employees, and then I couldn't afford it all, and we almost lost it all. The second time I built it to 100 employees, I was like, this is amazing. And then everything fell apart and I had to fire 80 people in one day. Oh, that was really hard too, so there's a lot of ups and downs. Someone earlier, oh you back here earlier said you didn't want to be an entrepreneur because of the risks. So, the nice thing to being an entrepreneur, there's two things, right. There's a lot of risks. Like a lot of times you can fail, and if you fail, you don't get paid anything. Like when I show up at work, I don't guarantee to get money. When you're an employee, if you get a job, you always get paycheck every two weeks. For me, I didn't get a guarantee. But the upsides is that you can make unlimited money. So, you have unlimited... There's no ceiling on it, so you kind of have the both. You can lose everything or you can make everything, but that's the scary part of it. But I still think it's worth it. Kid: It's sort of like a teeter-totter, like hanging off a cliff. You either fall or you live, so. Risk or no risk? You go on it, you risk your life. You don't, you stay alive. Russell: There you go. The entrepreneur teeter-totter, you either live or you die. The last question. Make sure it's the best one ever. Kid: What's your favorite part about your job? Russell: All of the people that work here at ClickFunnels are my best friends, so my favorite thing to come in everyday and I get to see all of my best friends. We all get to hangout and talk about business, and have ideas and brainstorm, and it's just fun to hangout with all of my friends everyday. Man: I'll give you one more final maybe tough question. Russell: All right. Man: As you've built this, obviously, you've had to venture out into different things whether that's speaking, or hiring people and firing people, all these different things. What would you say has been the greatest fear that you've had to face? Russell: It's tough because there's a lot of fears that go into starting a business because the path never, there's never a path. It's always you're just kind of like, so when you hire your first employee, you're like do I hire somebody, do I have enough money to hire? Like what's the rule, what's the laws? I don't even know, but I know I need help. It's just like you hire them, and then you're like waiting for everything to collapse. Then you're like, okay, nothing bad happened. Okay, cool, then you hire another person. My first time I hired eight employees before I knew I had to pay taxes. I didn't even know that was a thing. I had no idea, and I found out later. It's like, oh, you have to pay taxes and payroll tax, and like I didn't know that. So, like you have to go fix all the problems that you made, but I think a lot of times for me the scary part is I just didn't know anything. I was just kind of just stepping out. I was passionate about stuff so I was trying to create things, and as I was creating things, that's when to be able to support the art of what we were trying to do, like you had to figure out all of the other stuff along the way. But we were so passionate with what we were doing, it made it worth it. But just the fear of like at every step of it, because there's a million books but you don't know which book to read for this problem or this situation. A lot of times you read a book later, you're like, oh, that would have been awesome to know way back here. So, a lot of it is just being willing to risk it all and just hope for the best and hope you figure it out as you go. I heard someone say one time it's like you're jumping out of an airplane and you're building the parachute as you're falling. You know, like I hope I get this thing figured out before I hit the ground. That's what it feels like most days, especially the early days. Less nowadays. We've got pretty good structure in place now, but initially it was a lot of that kind of stuff. That's why I think a lot of people don't do the entrepreneurship because that first step is really scary. It's not like I know this is the path, get a degree, go to college, get a job. There's no path like that. It's like okay, go create something and the market will tell you if you're worth it or not. That's kind of scary to put yourself out there a lot of times.

Developing Relationships For Winning Partnerships with Barbara Jaynes Barbara Jaynesis the founder of Positively-Funded. A Business Development firm focused on making nonprofits THRIVE. Barbara came to the nonprofit sector after having spent over fifteen years in large scale commercial real estate development. Bringing with her savvy negotiation skills and durable relationship development between the private and public sectors. Positively-Funded assists nonprofits with creating authentic community allies. Engaging for profit partners in nonprofit missions to increase their revenue, decrease employee turnover and create sustainable resilient communities. Barbara focuses on winning relationships for the long-term. More about Jayne http://www.positively-funded.com  The Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Greetings, folks. It's Hugh Ballou in central western Virginia, where today the flowers are coming out, the sun is shining, it's absolutely a gorgeous day. These are the old mountains in the Appalachians. You got all the young, pointy mountains out there in Denver, Russell. Russell Dennis: We haven't filed them down yet. We have a lot of them, too. Hugh: You have a lot of them. We have a good guest that you actually talked to and got her on board today. It's an important topic people don't talk about globally, or even around the corner in their own communities. There is a lot more we can do. Barbara Jaynes, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Barbara Jaynes: Hello, Hugh. Hello, Russ. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Hugh: Tell our listeners a little bit about Barbara, your history, and why you're doing what you're doing now. Barbara: I'd love to, Hugh. Thank you. In 2006, my family and I moved to Superior, Colorado right outside Boulder. Before that, I lived in Cleveland and did inner city redevelopment. I worked in some of the toughest neighborhoods in the country and did urban renewal. I did some hospitals, large scale, ground up shopping centers and grocery stores. I loved what I did. It was my vocation. When I came to Denver, it wasn't as old, and people weren't as interested in my vocation and developing strong communities.  So I decided to go to the nonprofit sector and take my vocation and business skills there. I went to one of the most well-known nonprofits in Denver. I would bring them these incredible partners. They didn't know how to develop the relationships. They just wanted the check. You can't do that. Target doesn't want you to burn through a gallon of milk one time; they want you to do it 1,000 times. Nonprofits need to start thinking like businesses. I realized that. They needed to learn how to develop these relationships and know they are a value add. That's how Positively Funded was founded. Hugh: Positively Funded. That's your business and website? Barbara: It is. Positively-Funded.com. Hugh: What's that about? Barbara: I wanted nonprofits to think of a positive way to fund themselves. What I do is beneficial to both parties. It's not about give me, give me, give me. It's about going out and developing relationships that work. In the business sector you find your community allies and ask, “What is it that you need? Are you having a hard time engaging millennials? Are you having a hard time keeping employees? Do you need a better market profile? Do you need sales increased?” You work with the nonprofit to benefit yourself to help your business grow and benefit the nonprofit at the same time. Hugh: Russell, did you hear that? There is a synergy between for-profit and for-purpose businesses. What did you hear in that, Russ? Russell: It's all about collaboration. We had a great discussion on that. I have been wanting to get Barbara on the show for a while. We just started having discussions. There are people I am meeting all over the place right here in town that Barbara and I will be talking with soon. It never ceases to amaze me how when you are vibrating at a certain frequency, people start to turn up. I had a good friend who did therapy for veterans who is recently retired. Just ran into her this morning. We were having coffee. She said, “What can I do?” That is somebody Barbara needs to meet and other people around here need to meet. We can get a lot more done together. The traditional models of each thing don't seem to fit. I am starting to see people who are creating hybrid businesses, socially responsible businesses. They are taking their for-purpose enterprises in new directions and looking at mission-based revenue. It's all exciting. It starts with partnerships and being able to talk to each other. Barbara and I met for lunch one day. She is so easy to talk to. It could be that we are vibrating on the same frequency. It could be a mild form of group psychosis. Either way, the results will be the same if we collaborate. Barb's masterful at putting these partnerships together. She is from my hometown. It's not surprising. Hugh: It's the thin air there that helps inspire you, I'm sure. Russ, we preach the song of working together, of collaborating. The town where I live, Lynchburg, the University of Lynchburg, is launching a center for nonprofit leadership around the theme of collaboration. We have lots of nonprofits that distribute food to hungry people, and some who provide meals in addition to that. There is no overarching umbrella of how they can work together. If somebody is hungry on a Friday night, none of them are available for food. If someone is bound at home and can't use transportation, there is no way they can get to this food bank. We are putting together an umbrella organization for people to know that other ones exist, and where can we have a meaningful conversation? Barbara, let's start from the beginning. We have these different entities. From where I sit, I've been in history longer than you guys, today it's more important for the work of our nonprofits, whatever we call ourselves, our work is more important today because the world is so splintered and fragmented and toxic. We do the substantive work of doing good. But really, it works better if we work together. Where is the starting point? Suppose the scenario I have just outlined. There are a bunch of medical facilities that are free clinics. How do you start this conversation? How do you paint this paradigm of benefit? How do you take people who are interested and make them allies? Barbara: Hugh, the scenario that you put out is very common. One nonprofit does this, and another one does that. The nonprofits need to come together and collaborate as well. They need to look at where are the gaps that we need to fill in. We both do amazing things. No one nonprofit can be everything to the world. You might take a scenario and take those gaps and go out and find a community partner. Say, “We have this need. Here is what it is. We are not serving-” Take your example on a Friday night. While we both have food, we're not available to serve them. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the bodies to do it ourselves. How could we work with you to help solve this problem? Ask for the mentorship from those companies. When you work with a company, it's so important that you are working from bottom to top, top to bottom, hitting everyone. So go to their development people, their operations people, their finance people in the C-suite and say that you need mentorship in these areas. We have this problem. Help us solve it. Go to their new employees. Say, we could use some volunteers. The company you work for is amazing because they are helping to support the community and feed those who are hungry. We need your support as well. Talk about employee retention and the mental health benefits from volunteering. And engaging millennials. Millennials don't just want what's in the envelope at the end of the week. They want a purpose and a reason to be there. You the nonprofit can help give them that purpose.   Hugh: Connecting those dots is essential. There is this fear factor where we have our group of volunteers, and we don't want people to take them. We have our group of donors. Volunteers commonly work with several organizations, and donors donate to a bunch of organizations. Speak to this fear of having these conversations. How do we get people to the table to even explore the potential? Barbara: That is so true. When it comes down to donors and volunteers and corporate champions, suddenly everyone turns into 12-year-old mean girls. You have to stop that mindset. You cannot come from the mindset of scarcity. You have to come from the mindset of, I am a value added. Don't you want volunteers and donors who are passionate about what you're doing? If they're not passionate about you, they're not really your volunteers or donors. They might just be there for the day. Don't you want someone for the long haul to create an authentic long-term relationship with them? Shouldn't you find the right people for your mission that have the passion for it who are truly going to become your partners? Hugh: Russ is thinking on that one. He is bubbling up. Russell: You have to get the right people on the bus. That involves speaking to them in a way that resonates with them. It's finding that spot where you connect, and they get that. One of the things we were thinking about is running an organization, when do you come to the realization that you need allies in the community? Barbara: I'll tell you my life philosophy, which is how I raised my girls. The strongest trees have the most branches. I gave my girls a lot of branches. We don't have family here in Colorado. We moved to the other coast away from everyone. I gave them branches at church. We have branches in the neighborhood. They have branches at school. They had branches at sports. They had a lot of strength because they had a lot of different people in their lives to help nurture them because it does take your village. You should look at your nonprofit the same way. Do you have enough branches? Are you a strong four-legged stool? Do you have grants? Do you have community allies? Do you have individual donors? Do you have a fundraising program? You can't just rely on one leg to be a strong stool. You need a little bit of everything. If you think about how you diversify your personal financial portfolio, we're all told to do that, do that with your nonprofit funding. Is your portfolio diversified? Do you have four strong legs to hold you up? Or are you one grant away from closing your door? If you don't have those four strong legs, go out and make partners. Go out and find community allies. Bring the for-profit sector in to you and share your passion and your story. Russell: What does that process look like? People realize they need partners, but how do I start figuring out which ones I need and how to go about getting them? Barbara: That's a great question. For a lot of people, that is a conversation stopper. They're like, I know I need partners, but I don't know what to do. Then someone comes to your door and needs help, and it ends right there. You have to take some time out to focus on yourself and care for yourself and nurture your own nonprofit before you go the way of blockbustering by the dinosaurs. Look at your board and tell them, “We have this winning partnership idea that we want to collaborate with the for-profit sector for. Can I look at your LinkedIn contacts and see there might be someone there who you could introduce me to?” I am making it perfectly clear that I am not calling that person to ask for a check. I am looking for a true, authentic business partnership where I can increase their brand and community power, and they can help support us.” That is one starter right there. Russell: That is going right through the table and doing something for them first. Where can we add value? That is what a partnership is all about. It's not one-sided. It's about people bringing value. A lot of nonprofits have trouble looking at things that way when they are speaking with donors or potential donors. It's not a hat in hand kind of thing. We can together provide a value that is going to make a change in our community. If we can do that, then we will be able to make some impact. In terms of allies or partners, what qualities do we look for in a good ally, and what do we do to make ourselves good allies for people we want to partner with? Barbara: One of the things I always coach nonprofits on is look at the mission statement. Look at the values of the company. What they're doing right now, before you approach them. We really seem to have similar thought processes here and similar value traits. That would be someone I can approach. Look at their press releases. What are they growing? What are they talking about? When you do reach out to them, you can say, I read that press release and heard this, and this. That really aligns with what we're doing, too. Maybe we can help each other get where we want to be. Russell: You can do that. The difference isn't necessarily- if you have two or three organizations, you multiply your resources exponentially instead of sequentially. Barbara: Absolutely. That's important. When you go out and start this, my philosophy where I found, whether I was doing real estate development or nonprofit business development, is the 30/10/3 rule. I am going to call 30 people. 10 of them want to talk to me. 3 want to say yes, I like that, let's talk some more. Hugh: That's a great ratio. 30/10/3. Talk to 30. 10- Barbara: Call 30. 10 will want to talk to you. I hear about this. 3 of them want to bite into it and say, “This is a good idea. I can see where this is helpful to me and helpful to you. Let's talk.” Hugh: That's an important routine. Russell: Talk to ten for every one you want to secure. That works for any customer base: donors, volunteers, potential board members. I love the idea of making sure that you check that alignment. People like to talk with people who have done some homework and know a little bit about their organization or them as a person. You start asking questions about them. LinkedIn is a good platform. Everybody's favorite subject is them. They're their own favorite subject. It's finding a way to lift them up, and not blowing smoke. People can tell if you're just blowing smoke. If there is an authentic connection, leveraging that and talking about that. Hugh: This is what we call ROR, Return on Relationship. That 30/10/3 rule is ongoing. I hear people say, “I talked to an organization about it, and it didn't work.” I talked to an organization. I say, “I tried working out one day last year, and it didn't work either.” Underneath what I'm hearing you say, there is a continuity. You have to stick with it. There is persistence. Speak to that. We think we're bothering people. No, we're not. We're giving them an opportunity. Help reverse that paradigm, would you? Barbara: You need to have tenacity, just like a business would. I want this. I know I'm making a difference. I know my product is helping the community. You need to have the tenacity, the passion to go out with that and know you're not bothering people. You don't know what problems that business has. You have something to offer to help them with those problems. Do people know your brand? Do you need brand recognition? Do you need a new platform? Are you struggling in the hiring process? You can put a letter from us in your New Hire packet so when people interview with you, you're right there to talk about it. In your follow-up emails, we are right there to say how amazing you are in a video. We're your partnership in everything from sales to hiring. We don't know who we know who might want your products in their stores. Truly embed yourself in that culture. Make it a give-give. Hugh: Russell, do you have your head around what Barbara Jaynes does? Can you explain it for people who are listening to her for the first time? Russell: What she does is bring people together from multiple sectors to solve social problems and put good systems in place and help people have conversations. The conversation that we rarely have, when you're talking with people in nonprofits, is about value, the dreaded V word. That's what we're all bringing to the table. It's helping people understand that they bring value, and to quantify that in terms that makes sense to other people. She helps in bringing business systems. Thinking of your organization as a business, as a producer of value, and approaching it from that place so that you're out there offering everybody you come in contact with something of value, whether they are donors, providing pro bono work, a socially responsible business looking to support a cause, or a nonprofit looking to get support. It boils down to a couple of things: money and people. If you are short on either, at some point, you're going to fold. Hugh: Barbara, how did he do? Barbara: He did great. He is true. I am called the connector. That's important because I connect for winning relationships. He is right about the value add. I like to play the game, “Bigger and Better” in business. Did you ever play the game as a kid where you start off with a paper clip and go door to door? I have a paper clip – what will you trade me that is bigger and better? Then you go to the next door with what they give you and trade for something else. I do the same thing, with my nonprofits and business partnerships. I had a nonprofit I was meeting with and said, “A church came and built our fence a couple weeks ago.” “How did you thank them? How did you follow up?” We are going to send them a letter. “No, no, no. They have parishioners. You go and ask their pastor, ‘We want to thank your congregation in person. Could we have five minutes to stand up after your announcements and personally thank them and let them know what building this fence meant to us and talk about your charity?'” You have a captive audience of 300 or more people. Don't walk away from that. That's not a thank-you letter. Go get them. Hugh: Whoa. Did you hear that? Maybe we should do that. Russell: We have to work on this. When we do get you here to town, we will take you to McDonalds. Then we will swap that from Morton's or something like that. That is too far. The idea is now firmly planted. It's like toothpaste. It's not going back in once it comes out. Hugh: You know who your friends are, don't you? Russell, I heard her talk about installing or teaching business principles to nonprofits. I'm not sure that all businesses have those skills either. They think they do. They have some cash flow that masks their ignorance. That's what Russ and I spend our life doing: helping nonprofit organizations think in terms of cash flow and budgeting and marketing and all the things businesses need. I find sometimes that even businesses that donate or buy sponsorships for nonprofits don't know how to get the benefit of that sponsorship. They donate, but they don't know how to say, “What's this money going to create? What difference will it make?” They don't know how to ask that. When they make a business decision to use marketing money to sponsor an event, they don't know how to get a return on that investment. Is that part of what you help both sides explore? Barbara: It absolutely is, Hugh. It's so important because I teach this to both sides. You need to say, for every $10 we bring in, we provide a box of groceries to a family that will feed them for a week. What nonprofits do with money is magical. For every $20 we can take care of 10 new dogs in our shelter. When you quantify it like that, it lets the business know, Oh, I am donating $5,000. It translates to 500 dogs. This is what I can do. On the nonprofit side, you should always be talking numbers. Numbers ring true with millennials and with businesses. When you say to someone, “This is what $50 can do,” I didn't know you could do that with $50. I would have donated $500; I didn't realize I would have upped my ante. Let them know from the beginning, if you're doing an event, this is how much we want to raise. This is what it breaks down into. For every $20 increment, this is what it will change. Same on the business side. Let people know, Hey, this is what we did last year for nonprofits. Here is the impact for each one of them. Hugh: There is a lot in the ask. I served a church in Atlanta of 12,000. The preacher raised $18 million for the next phase of the building program, to double the size of the facility. He did that in 14 lunches. I was sitting in his office one day, and he had the cash before they dug any dirt. He is reading the newspaper where one of the people he had talked to had given $4 million for a building at one of the local universities. He called that guy up and said, “I'm sorry I asked you for such a small amount.” Russell: When you hit that sweet spot, we underestimate ourselves. It's important to set those expectations. What is it that you want? I think the way to do that would be approaching a foundation or corporation is to look at it that you want to try to get, but find out what they want. Barbara is good at helping them find that because they don't always know what they want to get. She sits with them and works with them and asks them what they want to try to do. You can't get goodwill out of a Madison Avenue magazine spread. It comes with being connected with people, making a difference. If everyone is clear on the common goals, you can set some measures. With donors, it's important to keep in touch with them. After they have written a check, let them know what the money is doing. The money should be quantified not just numerically, but in terms of story, in terms of people who are getting your services. How far those dollars are going. Thanking them. Highlighting some of them. This is what your support is making possible. They hear from you much more frequently than when you need money. if the only time they hear from you is when it's time to write a check, they will run for the hills. Barbara: You are so right. That is not the thing to do. It shouldn't be, I've gotten my check. Life is beautiful. Make that relationship true. Ask them, Can we do a quarterly updated video for your staff? Every quarter, let's update them and let them know the impact and what is going on. You want to triple their Roladex, and they want to keep your employees. You want to embed yourself into the culture to support them and support your nonprofit. You do a video that goes out in an email link to every employee, thank them, let them know what you have done with their money. It's amazing we have these wonderful programs, and we are able to serve so many more people. Last month, we had 50 people come in with this problem. We have to figure out how to solve this. Will you roll up your sleeves and help me solve it? You engage them beyond money. Sweat equity, mentorship, be there for me. I want to hit on something Russ said before about knowing who your audience is. I firmly believe you don't just go out and throw stuff against the wall to see what sticks. So many people will say, “You're a big company. Write me a check.” You have to have a reason. Start with a why. I really researched you. I know what you do. We have the same vibe. We're good for each other. Let's talk about this. Russell: A lot of that goes into the psychology of their branding. You have Nike that says, Just do it. If your message resonates with something along those lines, you get an idea of you look at who is in their commercials. Who are the people they are trying to reach, attract? How many of those people are in your tribe? They want that exposure, that goodwill. It's important to look at that to see how we align with them. Just as importantly, to use language that resonates with them to start a conversation. I think the conversation starts with trying to find the right person. That may not always be somebody with a sponsorship label. It may be somebody in marketing, or have another title. They have different pockets of money. Only a certain number of dollars are earmarked for sponsorship. They could support you elsewhere. It's having that conversation and asking them questions with what you have in mind, and bouncing something off of them. It's trying to dig up information that's not in their literature to get a feel for the person and start building that relationship. After you have an idea of where they're going in that particular point in time, then you tell them about your project. After you have gathered enough information, you ask if it's okay to send a proposal. But these folks are busy. You want to get a 15-mintue interview. Nothing will annoy them more than asking questions that are on their website that they spent money to make. Doing that homework is important. That is what Barbara is masterful at helping you do. Barbara: They have to know that you know who they are. They have to know why. Why have you called me? You need to have a good answer. I went to a meeting with one of my clients. The owner of the company across the table said, “Why did you call on us?” I could tell them exactly why. You belong to this association, and this technology association aligns with what this charity does. He's like, Thank you. You know who we are. We walked out with a check. It made the difference in the world. To take that time, to know who you're talking to, and why you're talking to them. Russell: You don't always expect to walk out with a check on the first visit, but if that's the end result, be open to receiving that. Barbara: My client was very happy. It really opened their eyes to the way that I do my things. I relaly want my clients to learn from my playbook and to be able to run with it and do it on their own. I don't want to be there permanently from them. As your community needs change, you will be able to go out and meet those needs. Russell:We get back to this discussion on value. A lot of businesses quantify that by their products and services. How can a nonprofit do that? A lot of people will sit there and actually have a limited view of what's valuable to other people? What are some things they can do to demonstrate value? Barbara: Know your data. Know who you're helping and how many people you're serving. When you are meeting with that person, you have your numbers and alignment. When you ask that company what they need, do you need us to write a thank you letter that you can send to your vendors to let them know what a community ally you are and support you are? Do you need us to do a video to your vendors to let them know what you're doing? It triples the Rolodex for the nonprofit and puts new eyes on them as well as help the business. Do you need us to do a video for your customers so when they purchase something and get the receipt, I am there to thank them personally and let them know how important you are in the community? They are not getting a pair of shoes; they are getting someone who makes a difference in the world. That's who they're buying from. Tell us what you need. Russell: You mentioned vendors, and I don't know that people think that. Part of the value of your board of directors is the relationships they have. I don't know if people think in terms of we don't have a relationship with XYZ, but we have people on our board who have relationships with W company who is a vendor of XYZ. Do you frequently find that is a good way to approach an organization? Barbara: It is. Using vendors is important. They want that winning relationship with their internal customers. It creates even greater synergy. It gives the company that you want to ally with a better story that they can tell to their vendors. We are not buying copy paper from just anybody; we are buying copy paper from the company that does this. You have their community story, and you have their back. Make sure you are wearing each other's jerseys. Russell: What do you think of that, Hugh? Are you ready to go out and buy a Cleveland Browns jersey and a Denver Broncos jersey just in case it all goes sideways for the Redskins? Hugh: I gather those are football teams. I am not much of a football fan. I am a NASCAR guy. I am in the South. This is intriguing. Let's talk about your organization, Positively-Funded. How did you come to that name? Barbara: I wanted to change the way that nonprofits thought about funding. Not to think that you have to go out with your tail tucked between your legs and grovel and I gotta go out and beg because the lights are getting turned off. No. You have a value add. You have something positive to give to the business world beyond the community that you provide services for. Get out there and be positive with it. I have something to offer. I want to be your partner. I want to make your business thrive so that my community thrives also.   Hugh: It's a win-win proposition. I heard Russ say earlier in the conversation about finding out what other people want. It's something that he introduces to a conversation on finding board members or donors. It would occur to me the same thing would happen here. Find out what the business is interested in. You had done your homework, so you walked out with a check. You had studied what that company was about. I can't tell you how many times that doesn't happen with companies I know. They misspell the person's name in a pitch. That is not a good start. How did you get the name for this company? How did you think of that name? Barbara: It's what I just came up with. I wanted to make a difference in the way and change the mindset of how nonprofits felt they needed to be funded. You don't need to beg. This is a positive thing. You are offering something positive to those financially investing in you, sweat equity investing in you, pro bono. You have something great to offer. Hugh: Let's do a summary here. What are the top three to five mistakes that nonprofits make when they approach a company for some sort of connection, partnership, funding? What is the remedy to those mistakes? Barbara: I think the very first thing is do your homework. Study who you're going after, and know why you're going after them. Don't go in cold. Hugh: The mistake is they don't know what the company does, or who the person is. They have not honored that person at all. Barbara: When you talked about when you're sending out a letter and misspelling the name, I advise to never blindly send out a letter. Do not do that. I research my companies. Call them first. Have a conversation. Then send a follow-up email. Thank them for their time. If you leave a voicemail, send an email. I left you a message this morning, and I want you to know why I left that message. Hugh: When you call a company, who do you ask for? Barbara: It depends on what the nonprofit really needs. You typically look at who is doing their community investments? Most companies have a community investment team. They have an employee engagement team. You ask for those things. Those types of departments. Hugh: The first mistake is know your enemy. You need to know your prospect. The problem is they don't know who they are, know about them, know the personality. The remedy is study who they are and get educated before you even make the first call. Barbara: Absolutely. That is your very first thing. Know your audience. Hugh: Give us a few more. What is a mistake nonprofits make? Barbara: The other thing is going in for the kill, and I just want the check. No. Develop the relationship. You don't just want that check. You need more than that check. You need partners. You need support. You need a strong four-legged stool. Ask for it. I need mentorship. Your CFO, I need help with my books. I need to understand how to financially run better. Give me mentorship. I need from your operations department. We are going to replace our roof in three years. I don't know the first thing about getting a roofing contractor. I need to start saving for that now. I need to know what to look for. What is my best roof to have in the long term? Ask for the help. Ask for the right people. Go bottom to top. Go for their C-suite. Go for their board. Know those people. Research them. Know that you need more than just a check. You need sweat equity and volunteering, too. Hugh: Not knowing your prospects. Get to know them. Go in there thinking it's one and done. Not working on long-term relationship. What's another? Barbara: Not doing your follow-up and diligence. Not keeping that relationship fire stoked. Not staying in touch and saying, What can we offer you? I see that one of your goals is that you want to hire 10 new people. How can I help you with that? Do you want a letter from us saying how amazing you are that goes into your interview packets? Do you want a video for a thank you? How can we help? Do you want an opportunity, so on that person's first day of work, I know a person who does this, every employee's first day of work, they don't show up at the company. This is our charity. You will go there and stock the shelves of this food back and spend the day with them. Tomorrow, you show up here. Hugh: That is great. That's three really good ones. Do you want to float another one? Or is that good? Barbara: I really think it's important that you have your number ducks in a row. Know your numbers. Know your numbers internally. Know how they work. Know your company's numbers. I want to know what your turnover rate has been since we have started this partnership. I want to know your brand recognition. I want to know about your sales. I want to know about your customer satisfaction. I want to know that we have impacted you in return. Hugh: This is also reciprocal. When you are asking for money, you want to ask for a specific amount. There are some people who say, “I want $20-30,000.” That's not specific. There is a $10,000 spread; it doesn't sound like you're careful with my money. It's their money until they give it to you. Russell: Specificity is important. The universe will hear $20,000 if you say $20-30. $20,000 will show up. That's what you put out there. That's what you want. It helps to be specific. It sounds like all of these things, as far as looking for ways to be of service, can help build the long-term relationship with a business or between a business and nonprofit. What are some other things? What are the most important things, say for the business to do, or for the nonprofit to do? Maybe two or three things that are important for each of them to do to make sure that you can build and maintain a long-term relationship. Barbara: I think the very first thing in your follow-up plan is have a regular communication strategy. We're going to talk. Whatever department is your go-to person, have a standing monthly conversation. Update each other. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Great. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Keep that communication going. Offer to spend time with their employees. Do a lunch and learn quarterly. Talk about how what seniors need. Here are the latest stats in America for seniors. Here is their food scarcity, transportation problems. Let us come in and talk about our wisdom in our sector, and how you can overcome these things, and how we work together. Hugh: Brilliant. Barbara: Invite us to come to your association. Whatever your trade association is, bring us along. Let us be your dog and pony show. We're there for you. Hugh: That's also part of top of mind marketing. They don't forget you because you're there, and you are always looking to add value to the other. There are business leaders who see nonprofit as their duty. I wrote my check, and I'm done. Rather than looking for the win-win, which takes time. I like your set of questions. Do you work just in Colorado? She has a superior attitude, Russell. I don't know why. Just in Superior. Do you work all over? Barbara: I go beyond Superior, Colorado. Boulder County is my home, that's for sure. I have worked with international nonprofits. I have worked with national nonprofits. I have worked with statewide nonprofits. I work with little babies with a staff of four. Everyone starts somewhere. Everyone can create winning partnerships, no matter what your size is. Hugh: Is there a place on your website where people can ping you and have a conversation with you to explore possibilities? Barbara: Absolutely. My phone number is on there. My email. There is a Contact form you can fill out. Whatever medium is your comfort zone, be it phone or email. Hugh: This is good stuff. I'm a conductor by trade. Musical conductor. Not railroad conductor. The composer/conductor Ralph Long Williams from Britain is known to have said, “Music did not reveal all of its secrets to just one person.” We can say that about funding, partnerships, leadership. It's good. We have gotten some wisdom from a lot of people over the four years. Thank you for your time today. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* The messages you have shared today are close to our heart. We wish people in every community would have some wisdom to share. Barbara, I am going to throw it to you for a closing tip or challenge. Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. This is wonderful to be able to share the good news of you have something to offer. Go out and be positive in your funding. Don't tuck your tail between your legs. I'd like to challenge nonprofits to look at your stool. How many legs do you have? How strong are they? Go find your community allies. Look beyond your traditional scope. What can I do? What do I have to offer? How can I collaborate? How can I be a good community collaborator, not only with the for-profit sector, but with other nonprofits? There is strength in numbers. Go out and be positively funded. Russell: Thanks always, Barbara. I am looking forward to having lunch with you later this week. That is the beauty of the bonus I get, Hugh. Barbara is in my backyard, and we are going to talk to people here and do what we can to come together and make some impact. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices