Podcast appearances and mentions of russell what

Enjoy another round of questions and answers during a recent Marketing Secrets Live episode. Register for the next Marketing Secrets Live episode at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Show. During this episode, you're going to have a chance to listen to some of the live Q and A. And this one got really fun. We had some really cool directions and angles that we went on. I think there's something for everybody through this Q and A, so hopefully you enjoy it. On top of that, don't forget: If you want to get your question answered live, make sure you subscribe at clubhousewithrussell.com. It's clubhousewithrussell.com. Go there. Subscribe to the room. And that way, you'll be notified the next time I decide to go live, and you can jump on and get your questions answered. These questions this week were really fun. A lot of different directions. I think you guys will get a lot of value from it. So that said, we'll cue the theme song. When we get back, we'll jump directly into the questions and answers. Yhennifer: Awesome. So our first guest here is Tracy. Tracy is guiding you with tax reduction strategies! All right, Tracy. Thank you so much for being here. What question do you have for Russell? Tracy: Hi, Russell! This is Tracy Lo, and I am so inspired by your stories all the time. I've learned so much from both you from afar, and also Myron. So my question is: How do you keep all your parts moving? Do you have a strategy for keeping your mental state as well as your philanthropy and your business together? What is your strategy? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! I would say I've been lucky, because when I first started this business, it was me trying to figure things out. And I was more chaotic than I am now. Anyone on my team is laughing, because they know that it's still kind of chaos. I think from the outside, things look organized, and things like that. But it's really surrounding myself with a good team of people. People who have a similar mission, who are trying to do the same things that we're doing together. It's having a good team of people. And then a lot of it is just figuring out how to build the things into your routines that'll get you the success you're looking for. Right? So for me, I know that for the first... ah, man... seven to eight years of my entrepreneur journey, I wasn't into health. And so I gained a ton of weight. And I had a... You know? I was more lethargic. I didn't even know I was unhealthy until I decided to start getting in shape and getting back in. And all of a sudden, by getting back in shape, it increased my energy. I felt better. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh! I need to weave this, now, into my routine to make sure I don't lose it again." So it became part of my routine where these things are all tied into it. Right? And so now it's easy, because it's just part of what I do. Mentally: "Okay. How do I stay sharp?" Well, if I'm going to be successful, I get paid to think for a lot of people. So if I'm going to be successful, my mind has got to be sharp. So I got to go listen to podcasts, and read books. And putting myself in situations where I can keep sharp and keep figuring out, "What's working today? What are the things that are working the best?" And so I figure out what all those things are, and then I put them into my schedule. I say, "Okay. I need to build this into my routine where I have time to listen to podcasts, or read books, or go to things that are going to help stimulate my mind so I can stay high there." And then charities. Right? When we decided... It's funny, because I get hit. I'm sure all of you guys here, you're hit by a million people wanting to... "I want to start donating money, maybe, to charities!" And for me, it's like, "I don't want to be the person that just gives money and then forgets about it." I want to make sure the things that I'm passionate about, so... Like Village Impact, we're very passionate about that. So it was like, "Okay. How do we make this part of what we do?" And so it wasn't just like... Give them a check, and then a year later, figure it out. It was like, "Okay. If we're going to do this with them, let's be very strategic about that." So I said, "Okay. Let's..." Todd and I, when we started ClickFunnels, we said, "Okay. Let's set up where every time somebody creates a funnel inside of ClickFunnels and it gets at least 100 visitors..." So it's a live funnel. "We'll donate a dollar to Village Impact." And so we started that seven years ago. And the first year, I think our check we gave them was... I don't know, $15 grand. And then the next year, it was $30 grand. And then $60 grand. And then $100 grand. So it gets bigger and bigger, but it's now part of the mission. So I don't have to think about it, because it's built into what we're doing. And now every year at Funnel Hacking Live, I'm like, "Stu and Amy, come on stage!" And we have a big old check. You know? Now, it's six-figure checks. And they get bigger. And it's eventually going to be seven-figure checks. But it's built into what we're doing, and so I don't have to think about it again. You know? O.U.R. is the same thing. We did the big launch where we launched with the documentary, and it did well, but then it wasn't consistent. So we're building a whole platform now that'll be a consistency thing, where it's now that... This mission is always being worked on, because there's a platform, and there's someone in charge of it. There's a team member who... that becomes their sole focus. And now it's weaved into it. So it's figuring out the things that are important to you that help you achieve the goals you want, and then figuring out... How do you weave those things into your routine, or your business model, or your whatever, so that it just happens and you don't have to think about it? Because it's too hard. We have so many things we're all doing. If you have to have the mental power to think about it every time, then nothing ever happens. So that's kind of how I do it. And I hope that helps. And it's also surrounding yourself by amazing humans who help fulfill those missions as well. Tracy: Thanks so much, Russell. This is Tracy Lo, CPA, passing the mic. Thank you. Russell: Awesome! Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it. Yhennifer: All right. Thank you for being here, Tracy. Now we're going to go on to Jermaine. Jermaine is in the real estate industry. Jermaine, what question do you have for Russell? Jermaine: Hey, Russell! Hey, everyone! I just had a quick question. I was wondering... Well, I got two questions. The first one: I didn't quite catch that book that you recommended? Russell: Was it Atlas Shrugged? Jermaine: What was that again? Russell: Atlas Shrugged. Jermaine: Yep. That's it. Russell: It's a really big book, so it takes commitment. It's insanely big. But as an entrepreneur and producer, you will love it. Especially in the real estate market. Jermaine: Okay. And I also wanted to know... while I have you... I wanted to know: Throughout all your time that you've changed the world and inspired people, what was your biggest business challenge that you had to overcome? And how did you overcome it? Russell: Oh, that's a great question! You know what's interesting, is that at every level, there's a new challenge. And so it changes. And every time when you're going through it, it seems like the biggest thing in the world. And when you look back, it's like, "Oh, that was actually really simple." But in the heat of the moment, it's hard. For the beginning part, it was just me believing that I was worth it. Right? I was the kid who struggled in school. I was never that smart. The only thing I was ever good at was wrestling. And I'm trying to start a business, and then I had a million doubts of, "I'm not worthy. I don't know how to do this. I'm not smart enough. I don't..." At the time, I didn't like to read! You know? First, it's that mental battle. I think for most entrepreneurs when they start their journey, it's the mental battle of just believing that you're worth it, that you can actually do it. And so for me, that one took a while. And then when I finally was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not..." I always thought I was a dumb kid growing up, because I struggled in school. So I remember having the realization after I started having success. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm not dumb! I can learn things! If I'm interested in the book, I can actually read it and enjoy it!" So that was the first big hurdle for me. Right? The next one was... As I got to a point in my business that was like... It was just me, and I was juggling a million things. I was like, "Okay. How do I... I can't keep doing this. I'm going to drown eventually." So I was bringing on employees to the team. And man, I can't tell you how bad I was at that! I hired all my friends. All my friends, I just hired initially, because I was like, "Oh. They're cool. I'll hang out with them!" So I hired all my friends. It turns out my friends are morons... No, I'm just kidding! Well, kind of. Some of them were... But no, I love them all. But it was like I hired all my friends, and they didn't know what to do. And I didn't know how to teach them. So I was like... Dude, I was working while they were all goofing off in the other room. And they wanted help, but I couldn't teach them, because I was too busy trying to make money to pay them. And so it took me years to figure out, "How do you get a team and get the right people in place?" And that was the next big challenge. Right? Then it was like, "How do you actually create something that's not just an offer?" Right? That could be a long-standing business. We tried for years to figure that out. And eventually, ClickFunnels was the business that became more than just an offer for me where it was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is a platform, something that can grow bigger." And then inside of that, there has been so many challenges. How do you scale a company like that? You know? How do you scale the support? How do you go from five employees to 500 employees? There's just different challenges to every step. And so I think that there's been a lot of them. But the biggest thing I would say is that the key that I find at every tier, the thing... It took me a while to figure this out initially. And now, I've gotten better at realizing, "Oh, the pattern to solve these is always the same." It is... You can call it "funnel hacking," call it, "modeling," whatever it is... is I try to always connect to the people that are a tier above me or two tiers above me. Right? So right now, we're trying to... I literally am paying somebody who's gone here, done this. And we do a one-hour call every other week with him. He's built multiple companies, software companies, to the billion-dollar mark. And so he's been down the path. And so we get on a call. I'm like, "Okay. Here's where we're stuck. What am I going to do? What would you do?" And I'm asking questions and modeling, like, "Hey. Show me three businesses that have done what you're talking about." And he'll show me. We'll find it. And we look at it, and we reverse-engineer it. We come back and apply it. And so the key is just really figuring out... It's modeling. It's figuring out who's already done the thing you're doing. Find that person. Pay them money. Get to know them. Join their coaching. But whatever it is, get around the people who have already done the thing you're trying to do. Because for them, it's simple. Right? For us, as we're going through it, it's really, really difficult. But the person who's already done it, looking back, it's simple. For me, now, the mindset and belief of, "I can do this," is simple now. I get it. I can help somebody with that really, really easily. Whereas in the moment, it was impossible. It felt impossible. Right? Launching a software company felt like an impossible moment, and now it's super easy. So it's finding people who... The thing you're struggling with now is super easy, because they've already done it multiple times. Getting around them. Hiring them. Paying them. And learning how to think like them. Right? It's always a shift in thinking and belief. And so it's coming back and saying, "Okay. I've got to think like them. I've got to believe like them." I think a lot of times, many of us... and I see this a lot with people who hire me... they hire me, or they hire a coach, and then they try to get the coach to believe or think like they do. And I'm the opposite: I'm not coming to you to try to influence your beliefs. I'm coming to you to change my beliefs. And that's a hard thing to do. Right? Our ego gets in the way a lot of times. So it's coming and saying, "Okay. I'm a blank slate. I'm going to do whatever you say." In fact, it's funny, because inside our community, we have the... Kaelin Poulin started it with the whole hashtag, #dowhatrussellsays. And at first, I was really embarrassed by it. But now, it's so cool! Because it's like, "Yeah. If you're hiring me to be your coach, just do what I say!" If I hire a coach, I just do what they say. I literally just... In fact, I'm working on my fourth book right now. And I have a quote. One of my friends wrote this in a blog post. He was talking about his morning routine, and why he does this really weird thing. And he says in the thing, he said, "People ask me why I do this." He said, "Because Tony Robbins told me so, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." And so for me, it's always been this joke: Now, when I hire a coach, whatever they say, I say, "I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence." Right? If I hire someone, I just believe them inherently, because I did the work ahead of time to see if I'm going to believe them. If I believe them, I give them my money. And I do whatever they say, and I don't deviate from that. Right? So people in my world say hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." For me, it's hashtag, "#dowhatstevencollinssays." That's the guy who I hired right now who is mentoring me. Whatever he says, I just do it. I don't fight. I don't question. He's been there a million times. And so I just do what all giant... You know? I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. I obey whoever I pay to teach me something, because they know what I don't know. And so for me, that's kind of the process: Find the hurdle. Find out who's already done it. Get that person. And then obey them, and just follow what they say to a T. So I hope that helps. Jermaine: That made perfect sense. So you basically trust yourself, and then you do what your coaches say? Russell: 100 percent. Yep! I do the work ahead of time. Before I hire the coach, I got to make sure I believe this coach is right. But if I believe they're right, then yes, I just do whatever they say. And so I see people, sometimes, blindly will sign up for coaching, or they'll hire a mentor, or whatever. And then they just kind of blindly follow the person. The person might not be right for them. But I do the homework ahead of time. And then when I know, "Okay. I'm committed. This is the person." Then I go all in, and I just put on blinders and follow them. Jermaine: Got you. I appreciate that. What was that book again? I'm going to have to write that down. Russell: Atlas Shrugged. So the way to remember it is Atlas is the god that's holding the weight of the world on his shoulders. And the premise of the book is: The producers, the entrepreneurs, people like us who are trying to... We're literally holding the weight of the world on our shoulders. Right? We're creating companies. We're creating jobs, and doing all these things. What would happen if Atlas just shrugged and walked away from his responsibilities? So the book is about that. What happens when the producers get so much pressure from government and society where it's no longer worth it to them, so they shrug, and they walk away from their responsibilities? And so that's the premise of the book, which is so fascinating. I'm actually listening to it again right now, which is fun. But it's a 1500-page book. It's intense. If you listen to the audiobook, it's eight audiobooks. That's how big it is. But man, it's worth it! Jermaine: I'm going to grab both of them right now. I've got all of your books. I've been following you for a while. My favorite one is the DotCom Secrets. Russell: Oh, very cool! Thanks, man! I appreciate that. Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you. Jermaine: You're welcome. Yhennifer: ... Jermaine. Thank you for being here today. I'm going to reset the room really quickly. We are, right now, listening to the Marketing Secrets Live podcast. This room is actually being recorded. Make sure you follow the house at the top so that you can get a notification when Russell goes live again here. Now, we are going to give the mic to Jeff. Welcome, Jeff! He is a product launch expert, has made over $8 million from 22 launches in three years. What question do you have for Russell, Jeff? Russell: What's up, Jeff? Jeff: Hey, Russell! What's going on, buddy? Russell: Good to hear from you. Jeff: So hey, being in your inner circle for the last five years, I've had the awesome pleasure of watching all the big house marketing initiatives that you've incorporated into the funnels that you and the rest of the ClickFunnels community launched, and also at your annual Funnel Hacking Live event with Village Impact and O.U.R., as you mentioned. So what's been cool to see is the more funnels and events you launch, the more you're able to give back, which is awesome. So how are you thinking about incorporating that live launch strategy that you've been doing with, perhaps, more of an evergreen launch strategy now? With things like OFA, your quarterly Two Comma Club Live virtual event, and now the DotCom Secrets Summit that you just launched, with some of these... trying to also bring in these new live launches. I know you have Funnel Hacking Live coming up in a few months. Can you just talk about... Each month, what are you looking at in terms of evergreen versus live? Russell: Yeah. That's a good question. That's something we could talk about for a long time. You know? I think it's interesting. I watch somebody like Tony Robbins, who... He does UPW four times a year. He does Date with Destiny twice a year. And he does these things. And he's been doing it live for decades now. Three or four decades, he's been doing these events. If you go to them, they're very similar every single time. And for me, it's tough, because if I go back and I teach the same thing twice, I want to pull my hair out! You know? And I'm like, "I don't know how Tony has been so consistent for so long." And so for me, it's like there's this blend. Right? There's things that... The DotCom Secrets book came from me from a decade of me teaching these principles. I was doing events, and speaking at other people's events, and teaching these principles. And finally, I was like, "If I have to tell this story about the value ladder one more time, I'm going to kill myself." Right? So that's when I finally was like, "I'm going to write a book." So I wrote a book. And it was like, "Here it is. It's now evergreen. I can give it to people. And I don't want to talk about this thing again." Right? A similar thing happened with Expert Secrets. And you were in the inner circle, and I was... We spent three years geeking out on webinars, and conversions, and psychology, and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, "I don't ever want to talk about this again." So I turned it into a book. And I was like, "Hey, there's the blueprint!" And so I look at the online stuff through a very similar way. Right? We did the Two Comma Club Live event that first time, and then my energy was there. I was excited. It was fun. We created it. We launched it. It was amazing! But then, I was like... For me, it's like art. I didn't want to just be like, "Hey, it's done!" And walk away from it. But I didn't want to teach it again. So it's like, "Okay. How do I turn this experience into something that's now evergreen?" That we can keep the message going on. Right? So that when I'm dead and gone, my kids can keep running the ads, and keep running the event, and it'll keep producing. Because for me, all the stuff we do is art. And so I want to sustain it. So I'm always looking: Is there something I can do that I can create it, but then it'll last? It'll live beyond myself. Right? If you've read Ryan Holiday's book, The Perennial Seller... In fact, he spoke last year at Funnel Hacking Live about that book. I was like, "I want you to talk about Perennial Seller!" He was like, "I've written eight books since then!" I was like, "I know, but that's my favorite one! You've got to talk about that." But in Perennial Seller, he talks about the difference between art that lasts forever versus stuff that happens and is gone. Right? A good example is in movies. Right? Avatar, for a long time, was the greatest selling movie of all time. But if you ask someone to quote an Avatar line, there's not a person on this Earth who can remember anything from that movie. Right? It was a great seller, but then it died. Right? And so many people in our industry do a big sell, and then it dies. And it disappears. Versus you create a movie like Star Wars, where it lives beyond itself... It has legacy. It's a perennial seller. It'll continue to do well for a million years from now. Or you have TV shows. Right? You look at Seinfeld versus Friends: Friends was very much successful in the moment, but then it hasn't lived on as well as something like Seinfeld, which has lived on in perpetuity for so long. Much more of a perennial seller. And so I was always trying to create things that could be perennial sellers. And so when I do do something like that where I think it can last beyond itself, where things are strategic enough that they're not tactical, and they're going to change. Where they're strategic and we can do it, I want those things to live forever. So again, that's the Summits. That's the Two Comma Club Live, and things like that. But then we have our big hits. Right? Funnel Hacking Live, it's a big show. It's what's working now. You know? We put all this energy and this effort into it, but we know it's a one-time show. Right? And it happens. It's done. It's over. And then next year, we're going to plan a new one. And we can't evergreen Funnel Hacking Live. Right? It's a little bit different. And so it's just looking at those kind of things. You know? Sometimes, you're going to have an Avatar hit. And you should totally go and take the 100 billion dollars it makes and cash it, because that's awesome. But other things you create, you want the longevity. And so for me, that's how I'm looking at things. It's just like, "Okay. What things have longevity? What things do I want to be a perennial seller? What things do I think can last just beyond a product launch or beyond a thing?" And as soon as it's done, then it's like, "Okay. How do we morph that into something now that can last beyond the moment?" So that's kind of how I look at things in my head, how I figure things out. And then on top of that, it's just... You know? We're still kind of figuring it out. So some things, we're finding that we launch and we make the perennial version, they don't last long. They're still there. So people can find them, but they're not... The longevity is not there. We can't continue to buy ads to it. Whereas One Funnel Way, it's crazy! To this day, One Funnel Way has been running almost three years now. We fill up 1500 every two weeks to a 100 dollar, paid challenge. And it continues to convert. It continues to work. It continues to... That one is, of all the things we've done, the most perennial, and just continues to work. And I wouldn't have guessed that going into it until we tried to make the evergreen version. And it kept working. And it's like, "Oh, my gosh! This is amazing!" So yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But kind of... That's how I think through things, and how I'm looking at stuff. Myron: Can I ask you a question about that, Russell? Russell: Yeah, Myron! I'd love to. Myron: What advertising methodologies are you using to put 1500 people in a challenge every two weeks? Because that sounds phenomenal! Russell: Yeah! A couple things: Number one is we pay 100 percent affiliate commission. So the only people who go through it refer people, and it's 100 bucks, and they get 100 percent of that 100 bucks. Number two is that I can spend 100... I can lose money. So I can spend 150, 200 dollars to sell a challenge. So I can spend a lot of money to do it, because again, 100 percent of the money goes directly back into advertising. We're not trying to make money on the challenge. As you know, all the money is in the back. And amateurs focus on the front end. So we liquidate it. 100 percent of our money goes into the ad spin. And number three, I think, is just... The message is right. For some reason, that message, it lives long. Right? The people, if it's their very first time... You look at the headline. It's like, "If you want to launch your first or your next funnel." So if it's their first one, it's like, "Oh, this is going to help me." Number two, it's like if you've launched a funnel but, "I need to go back and do this again," it gives you a chance to review it and go back through it. And I'd say the last thing is we weave that theme into all of our offers now. If you look at everything, every offer leads back to OFA. You buy all my books? OFA is in that sales flow. You do one of our challenges, it leads back to OFA. So it's weaved into everything now. So it's plugged into the back end of everything we're doing. And so no matter what somebody buys, all roads lead to the One Funnel Way challenge eventually, which is pretty cool. Myron: Wow! Russell: Yeah. And we're working on, now- Myron: Great stuff. Russell: We're working on a One Funnel Away e-commerce version of the OFA challenge next, which I'm really excited for as well. So anyway- Dan: And you do that live every two weeks? Russell: So I don't. I recorded it live once. And we have a team, now, though. So we have a team of... One person runs it, and three or four coaches. And so every week, they reset a new Facebook group. And then they're in there full-time answering questions. And then they stream. The trades that were live at one time, they stream them into the Facebook group. And all the interaction happens there. So it feels very alive. People know it's not alive, but it feels very live. It's executed live. It's not like logging the members in and watch... Day-one videos. We try to replicate the experience as close as possible. And again, it's not just like, "Go watch this video and hope for the best." Literally, they watch the video, and then there's coaches in there who are answering questions, who are getting them to do the homework, who are... Full-time, their job is in there, now. Because it's been so profitable for us, man, we left... I always tell people: One of the biggest problems that us entrepreneurs have is we create something and then we move on to the next thing. And OFA was the first thing that our group created it, and were like, "There's something magic here." And we left somebody behind. So Shane on our team, we left him behind and said, "Your job is to continue to make this better and to run it." And then he hired three or four coaches, and now there's a team of people who, full-time, all they do is make sure OFA is happening, and it's consistent, and it works. And because we left somebody behind, that's why the fulfillment continues to improve week after week, although I'm not creating new content week after week. Dan: And it converts similar with the streaming replay as it did with you doing it live? Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Dan: That's- Russell: It was easier to sell people in initially: "Yeah, go sign up for it! Go to onefunnelway.com and watch the process!" But yes- Dan: That's what I'm going to do right now. Russell: 100 percent. 100 percent. And like I said, three years, we've been running that thing. We launched initially, and then we did it live again four or five months ago just to kind of refresh the whole thing. But other than that, it's the same thing. And it runs on autopilot. Dan: And the affiliate aspect is really important, because everybody that comes in, you then say, "Hey. Do you want to make money? Did you love this challenge? Bring somebody in." And they get a commission. Can I just ask one question about that? Russell: Yeah. Let me give one clarity, and then ask the question. So the clarity is- Dan: Yeah. Russell: also right when they first come in. It's like, "You paid 100 bucks for this. Do you want this to be free? Invite a friend." It's right when they sign up. It's like, "Bring by a friend," and now it's free for them, because they just get one person to sign up, and now it's free. Dan: Okay. That... Okay. So that's my question, is: You guys have really, truly went just deep in the affiliate game. And I almost feel like, sometimes, going all-in on the affiliate game is like... I'd rather pay my customers and my clients than pay Zuckerberg. Do you know what I mean? Honestly! And so my question to you, on that, is: How do you train somebody who is a normal customer, who is not an affiliate or a traditional super affiliate, to actually refer people to you? Obviously, you have to tell them, "Hey, here's how you refer people." What's your best tip for that? Russell: Yeah. The best tip is you have to think about it differently. A lot of people are thinking about, "I'm going to make him an affiliate, and teach him about affiliate marketing!" And the average customer, they're not going to be an affiliate. Right? You look at... The people in e-com space do this really well, a lot of times, and other places, where it's... The position is not how to make a bunch of money as an affiliate. The position is, "How do you get this product for free?" Right? It's like, "Hey. You get three people to sign up for this, or..." You know? Whatever. For me, it's like, "You get one person to sign up, and now it's free." That's how you position it. And they're like, "Oh, my gosh! I can tell my brother!" And then, "I'm doing this challenge, too! I'm going to invite my friend, and I actually get paid for it?" And so you get them passing it around. They're not looking at it as a business opportunity as much as, "How do you get the thing you just bought for free? How do you get your money back very, very, quickly?" That's the shift. Right? Because they're not going to go sign up 100 people, but they are going to get one or two. Right? And if every person brings in one or two, it becomes this self-fulfilling machine that just keeps growing, and things like that. And so it's just looking at it differently, and just showing... That's the positioning. Right? It's not how to be affiliates. It's, "Get this thing for free by telling three people to-" Dan: So you're not giving them any sort of extensive training? You're just pretty much hoping that one customer will refer, maybe, a couple... few... people. But it's a consistent thing, rather than, "Hey. Here's this training on how to refer more people." And you... But- Russell: Yeah. Because they're not going to buy ads. They're not going to... They don't have an email list. But they're going through this. They believe in it now, and they don't want to feel dumb. And it's like, "If I can get my friends in this and do it together, now it's a fun thing. And we can study together." And that's the- Dan: Oh, the accountability! Oh, my gosh! That's so good! Okay. All right. That was awesome. That was gold. Russell: Awesome. Yhennifer: Light bulbs are going off here! I love it! I hope everyone is taking notes. I want to add one more thing to the OFA stuff, Russell, if it's okay with you? Russell: Yeah. Yhennifer: Because I see what goes on in the Facebook community, and I just wanted to add that people sometimes buy the OFA more than once just because they want the accountability of the coaches. They come back. They see that it has so much value that they're like, "100 dollars? I'm in!" So we also see that as well. Russell: Yeah. The OFA lifers, it's almost a continuity program. They re-sign up every single month, because they don't want to lose the connection with the team! Yhennifer: Yes! Yes. It's amazing. So if you have not done the One Funnel Way, go to onefunnelway.com. It's an awesome, awesome offer. Yhennifer: Okay. We have one more guest here, Michael Hoffman. He's a digital marketer and an owner of a digital media agency. So Michael, what question do you have for Russell? Michael: Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for having me up here. Russell, thanks so much for providing all the value. You mentioned something before, that there was this hashtag, "#dowhatrussellsays." And earlier this year, I read Traffic Secrets, started my podcast. The other day, I finished your new Expert Secrets. I'm going to work on my weekly webinar now. So doing what Russell says actually works! So my question is a little different, and more mindset-related. You have an extensive past in... almost professional sports. You were a wrestler for many, many years. And you made that transition into entrepreneurship. And I have a past as a professional basketball player, and also transitioned into... first, to a full-time job, and then entrepreneurship. And for me, it was a very difficult time to shift my identity. And I just wanted to get your... yeah, basically... experiences on how you experienced that phase, to transition from full-time sports to entrepreneurship, and what helped you to complete this identity shift? Russell: Oh, very cool! It's interesting. I think... Not always, but I feel like athletes often do really good in entrepreneurship. And I think the reason why... I've thought about this a lot... It's because for me, with wrestling... I'm sure it's the same for you with basketball... Every day, for me, I'd step out on the mat. And there was the guy I'm going against. And we'd wrestle. And a lot of times, I lost. A lot of times, I won. But I got used to failure, and it didn't destroy my identity when I failed. Right? I feel like a lot of people get into entrepreneurship, and they're so scared that if they try something and it fails, that it means that they're a failure. Versus in wrestling, I'd fail, and I'm like, "Cool! Now I know how to beat this guy!" Watch the film, figure it out next time I go back, and I try to beat him again. Right? And it's a different mindset where failure meant I could learn something, versus failure meant I was a failure. And I see that so many times in entrepreneurs, where they'll sit in club house rooms, or podcasts, or read books for years, and years, and years, and never do anything, because they're so scared of that failure. Whereas athletes have experienced it. You know? I lost tons of matches! You know? So I'm used to that failure, and I'm okay with it, and I don't label myself as a "failure." So I think that's why athletes do well, just because they have had that experience. But on the other question, that identity shift: So it was interesting. So my wrestling career, that was my life, as you know. It was probably similar to you. I was a wrestler. If you asked me, "Russell, what are you?" I'd go, "I'm a wrestler." And so I was. And I wrestled all the way through college. And I remember at the end of college is when I started learning some of the internet business and figured things out. And my senior year, I ended up losing the Pac-10 Tournament. I thought I was going to go to Nationals and place. And I had... My entire life, I was focused on this goal. And I ended up losing the Pac-10s and not qualifying for the National Tournament my senior year, which was horrible for me. Right? My entire everything just stopped. I remember sitting there on the side of the mat crying, and just... "It's done. I can't even achieve my goal if I wanted to. It's gone! There's no..." It was weird not being able to achieve a goal. And I remember, luckily for me, I had this entrepreneurship thing happening at the time that I was learning about. Because if I didn't have something, I think I would have gone into this downward spiral of depression just knowing that the thing I'd been dreaming about for 20 years, I know longer... It's physically impossible for me to do, now. It's out of... It's impossible. And so for me, luckily, I had this business. And I started focusing my time and energy there. And it gave me something to do, to focus on a new goal. And that was the big goal, the big thing. And so, because I was able to transition pretty easily... Because I had just... I was trying to avoid the pain of my old identity dying, and so I had to shift over here. And so I think, for people who are making that transition, it's... I mean, you used the word "identity shift," which was the right word. Right? It's like you have to shift that identity. And I don't know how to... I mean, in fact, we have Anthony Trucks, who is going to be speaking at Funnel Hacking Live specifically on identity shifting yourself, which I'm excited for. He's geeked out on this at a level that I don't think anyone else really has, and so it's going to be fun to have him go into it on the process. Because I don't know exactly what the process was, other than that I knew that I shifted. And then I started looking at it like a sport. I said, "Okay. What's the goal? What am I going to win?" You know? "Who are my teammates? Who do I got to get to know? Who are the competitors? Who do I have to beat?" And I just used the same mindset. And I think that a lot of people come into business, and they look at it different than a sport, which is interesting when you look at it. It's like, "Oh, I'm here to..." You know? I don't know. I did a podcast three or four years ago. I still remember where I was at when I recorded it, because when we came out with ClickFunnels, for me, it was... It's a combat sport. I'm looking: "Okay, who are the competitors? Who are the people out there?" And at first, it was like, "Leepages! That's who I have to beat!" Because in wrestling, that's what I did: "All right. Who is the guy that I got to beat?" I looked at him. We studied film. We figured it out, and we got to the point where I could beat that person. And we found the next person in the next tier up. We found the person, identified the target, reverse-engineered their style, and learned how to beat them. And so for me, it was the same thing. Leepages was the first person on our hit list. Right? So we came out. And those who were around when we launched ClickFunnels, it was very aggressive. It was not... You know? I was like, "This is our competitors. We're going after them." And we went after them. Then we got to the point where we beat Leepages, and we passed them. After we passed them, it was like, "Hey, who is the next competitor?" For us, it was Infusionsoft. And I was like, "There's no way we can beat Infusionsoft. They're huge!" But I'm like, "That's the goal!" And so we figured out who they were. We reverse-engineered it. You know? Went after them, and ended up far surpassing them. And it was interesting, because I remember the CEO and me... He's a really nice guy. But he messaged me one time, and he asked me... He was like, "Why do you hate Infusionsoft so much?" And I'm like, "I don't hate you! I'm grateful for you! You're the person..." I needed somebody to get me motivated. Otherwise, as a competitor, if I'm just... I'm not here just to make money. That was what inspired. It inspired me. It was the victory, trying to figure out the next person who we're going after. Right? And I told... It's kind of like that scene in Batman, The Dark Knight, where Joker asks Batman, "Why do you hate me?" And he's like, "I don't hate you! You fulfill me! I need you! Without you, there's no me!" Right? And so for me, that was the transition. It was like... I didn't take the competitiveness out of me. I kept it. Everything I did that drove me in wrestling, I kept that. But I focused it over here in business. And so the identity shift wasn't huge. It was just a different game. Right? Same athlete. Same competitive nature. Same everything. But the game was different, and so I had to figure out the game, figure out the rules, figure out the players, figure out the competition, and then make it fun for me. And so for me, that's kind of, I think, how I was able to make that transition. Yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. But that's kind of the mindset behind, for me, how I was going to make that transition. And at Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks will show us the actual process to shift identity, which I'm so excited for! Michael: Awesome! Thank you so much! That was really helpful, just listening to your experience and hearing it from someone else. And I like the competitive aspect, and the perseverance that we have as athletes to transition that into entrepreneurship. Russell: Yeah. Well, very cool, man. Thanks for jumping on the show. I appreciate it! Yhennifer: Awesome! Thank you, Michael, for being here. And Russell, I think that wraps up our Marketing Secrets podcast today! Russell: How fun! Well, thanks, you guys, all for jumping on and hanging out. We're going to continue to do these. I'm having fun with it so far. So hopefully, you guys are as well. For those who are listening to the recording: If you want to make sure you get on the next live one and maybe get your question answered live, go to clubhousewithrussell.com. That'll redirect you to our clubhouse page. Go follow the room, and we'll do this again soon. Thank you for all of our guest speakers who jumped on: Keenya, Dan, and Myron. I appreciate you guys jumping on and sharing your thoughts, as well. Hopefully, some of the conversations we had were stimulating and helped you think about yourself, think about your charity, think about your funnels, all this stuff. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed it. If you did, let us know! And if you want to hear the recording of this, make sure you subscribe to the Marketing Secrets podcast on any of the platforms. We're there. Probably in the next week or so, it'll go up live there, and you can go and re-listen to all the stuff we talked about. So thank you Yhennifer for all the time and effort you put into it, and everybody else here on the clubhouse team. I'm grateful for everybody. And with that said, I guess we'll see you guys all on the next episode!

Welcome to another guest edition of Marketing Secrets Live! Russell talks to Keenya Kelly about Tick Tock, Myron Golden about challenges, and Dan Henry about high ticket sales. Don't miss this value packed episode! To be on the next Marketing Secrets Live episode, register at ClubHouseWithRussell.com Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Everyone welcome to the marketing secrets live show. I'm so excited to be here live with you guys. This is kind of a new format we've been doing for our podcast. And if this is your first time on, welcome. If you were listening to the recordings of this later, and you want to come on one of our live shows, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com and come and sign up for the Marketing Secrets Live Clubhouse room. And this is where we're kind of hanging out once a week or so. And it's fun because this format's been different. I've had a chance to bring in speakers and find out their number of marketing secret. Then I have a chance to share the coolest thing I'm thinking about at the time. And then we open up for Q&A at the end. And so those who are live, get your questions ready. We're going to do a Q&A at the end. Again, if you're listening to the recording on the actual podcast, make sure you go and register for the live shows at clubhousewithrussell.com. It'll be a lot of fun. So today we've got a couple of guests I'm going to bring them on here in a second and share their number one marketing secret. But before we do that, of course, we got to lead off with the marketing secrets theme song. So let me queue that up. When we come back, we'll jump right into to our guest panels. So here we go. All right, welcome officially now to the marketing secrets live show. Yhennifer, excited to have you here as always, helping me kind of co-host this and get things kicked off. Looks like our first guest isn't here yet, but I would love if you want to introduce the first guest that we're going to be talking to, and we'll just jump right in if you want to. Yhennifer: Awesome, let's get the party started. Before we introduce our guests, we want to make sure that you guys that are here on this episode, that you click the little plus sign in the bottom and invite your friends. Also, a reminder, we are recording this room and don't forget to follow the speakers on the stage and click the little monopoly house on the top and follow the Marketing Secrets Club here so that you can get a notification where we go live again. So our first guest speaker is miss Keenya Kelly. Kenya is the CEO of You Brand It, a video marketing consulting firm in San Diego, California. She is a strategist. She is the TikTok queen, and she's been a member of the funnel hacking community since 2017. Welcome Keenya and Russell, I'll pass it on to you Russell: Keenya. So excited to have you here since 2017. That's crazy. You've been around for a long time. I've been watching you for a long time closely for the last probably two or three weeks, which has been so much fun. So excited to have you on the show first off and welcome. How are you feeling today? Keenya Kelly: I am feeling super good. I'm actually in Mexico celebrating my 40th birthday. So I'm feeling real good. Russell: Very cool. Congratulations. Happy 40. I hit my 40th last year. So far, I remember when I was a kid, I thought when my parents turned 40, I was like, "They're almost dead." I was really concerned. And now as a 40 year old, I feel like I'm just starting. So it's different when you get older, isn't it. Keenya: It sure is. I'm like, I'm just getting started up in here, you know what I'm saying? Russell: Very cool. Well, what I want to ask you right now. This is the question I ask all the guests here on the Marketing Secrets Live show, is what is your biggest marketing secret that you are doing right now inside of your business? So we can all hear and learn from it. Keenya: Absolutely. So my biggest secret is TikTok. And I know some people are already like, they're like fading out, but don't fade out. I built my business initially from Facebook and Instagram and in 2020, I'm somebody who prays for strategies. And I heard God tell me to get off to TikTok, which I thought was insane, but I was like, "I'm just going to try." I was like, "Maybe I'm just dealing with whatever because of the pandemic." So I get on to TikTok and initially I'm dancing like everybody else. But then it clicked. This is the newest social media platform that marketers are going to run to. And so in the midst of everything that happened in 2020, I just kept creating content. And fast forward a year later, 450,000 followers, we added an additional $300,000 to my business and it's just been incredible. And now I'm this "influencer". And I'm like, "I never thought that I would be an influencer, but now I am." Russell: That's interesting. So you started with doing dances, like a lot of people do in TikTok. I'm curious, what was the transition like? What were some things you did that helped it to grow or helped get the following, actually make money from it? Keenya: For sure. So what happened was that I was going viral with some of the dances and just being my personality. And I ended up seeing somebody, I can't remember who it was that was marketing and they clicked. And I immediately transitioned. I said, I do love to dance. I do love to have fun. I'm going to take some of these trends and start teaching. So I started doing a little bit of dancing, but I would talk while I was dancing or I would have texts on screen. And I started driving people to the link in my bio to jump on my email list, to buy my courses. And I ended up, like I have a book, a business book called Before You Quit Your Job. And I ended up selling way more books on TikTok than I was anywhere else. And so I just kept doing that. I was like, this is a creative platform. Be creative, have fun, but teach in the way that TikTok's community is. And that is what happened. Russell: That's awesome. It's interesting. I'm not a big TikToker yet, but my kids are. And so I remember when I was trying to understand the platform. I said, "I'm just going to watch my kids and see what they're doing and why they're doing it, to understand them." And it was fascinating because my daughter, she started growing her TikTok channel slowly. And I remember at first she would be like, "I got 30 followers. I got 50." She was so excited, and then what she did, this is super interesting. She set up a second profile and there's a name for it. I think it's like a thing that TikTokers do, I don't know. You may know more than me, but she covered up her face, and it was like, people had to guess who she was. So she did these dances where you can't see her face and people started guessing. And that channel blew up to like 50 or 60,000 people. And she kept building towards the big reveal. As soon as I get X amount of people, I'm to reveal who I am. And so she got to that point and then she revealed who she was and she pushed everyone to her main channel. And she had like almost 30,000 people move over there, follow her on her main channel. And now my daughter's like, "I'm an influencer dad." I'm like, "No, not my daughter. No." But it was just that interesting strategy to watch how she did that. How just some of the different techniques and things to start growing. And I think for anybody, especially someone like me who hasn't really gotten good with the platform yet, it's like find people who are using it and just watch them. That's how we started learning YouTube. I started learning other things is just watching how people who do love the platform, what they're doing and how they're doing it. It sounds like you had something similar, you were doing it just for fun. And then you started seeing other people transitioning. Okay. I see how this is going to work now for my business as well. Keenya: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was something because social media always starts out entertaining. It just does. And then it usually starts out with the younger generation. And so when I got there, I was like, "There is something to this." And I slowly started going, "This is going to be the wave of marketing." And now here we are 2021 and Facebook just launched their short video and everything else has short video. Russell: Yeah. Super interesting. Well, awesome. Thanks for coming on the live show and sharing that it makes me want to go... I'm about to head on family vacation. So my goal is to TikTok my daughter at least three times over the next week and a half. So those who want to follow my TikTok, go find me. I'm only like at 500 followers. So go follow me and you'll see me start trying to practice what we're preaching. So thank you Keenya so much for coming on and sharing. Super grateful for you. Keenya: Thank you so much. Yhennifer: Awesome. Thank you, Keenya. You are awesome. I'm so excited that you were here. All right. So now we have Myron Golden. Myron is a high in demand speaker, trainer in areas of sales, marketing, business development. I think he doesn't even need an introduction because I mean, all the funnel hackers here know who he is, but we had to give him this special introduction. He's also a bestselling author. And I don't know if you guys know this, but he's a songwriter and an owner of a record label. Welcome Myron to the marketing secrets podcast. Back to you, Russell. Russell: What's up Myron. How are you doing, man? Myron Golden: What's up Russell? Good to see you brother. Good to see you. I forgot about this call. Don't tell anybody I said that. Russell: You're live right now… Myron: I'm at the golf course. Russell: Are you golfing right now? Myron: I'm at the golf course, but it's all good, I'm here. Russell: Well, thanks for jumping on. Myron: Good to see you bro, always good Russell: We're only on for a minute or so. So well, first off Myron, you, as you know, you're one of my favorite humans on this planet. Just been so grateful for you. The last few years hanging out often has been some of the highlights in my life. So grateful for you. And the biggest thing on the marketing seekers live show. So we can get you back to golfing, but my only question for you is, what is right now in your business the number one marketing secret. Of all the things you're doing, obviously you're doing a lot of things, but if you could say, this is my number one marketing secret right now, what would that be that you can share with everybody? Myron: Well, my number one marketing secret right now is we've got a challenge to a bootcamp. And what we do is we do a five-day challenge. It's $97 for general admission. It's $297 for VIP and we do it to a split offer, which people say you shouldn't do, but it's working really well for us. So if people are making more than 20,000 a month, we send them to our application for our inner circle. If they're making less than 20,000 a month, we send them to the application for our offer mastery coaching. Where we teach people how to create offers and do challenges. And we've got students right now. We just did our first one at the end of February, beginning of March. And we've got one guy from our first challenge who's already done two challenges and done over $300,000. We've got another lady who's never sold anything high ticket before, her very first challenge she did like $24,000. So people are just crushing it. So that's what we're doing. We're doing a challenge to a $21,000 coaching program and or to our inner circle. And it's done for us so far over $2 million this year. That's Russell: That's awesome. It feels like this year has been- Myron: That's my number one secret. Russell: It feels like this year has been the year of challenges for people, which has been really, really fascinating. And people use it for different ways, right? We use challenges, people in software. Other people using challenges, so there are courses. And you're going from challenge straight to super high ticket, which is fascinating. Now you said also your challenge is a paid challenge of friends, is that what you said? Myron: Oh yeah, paid. Russell: Okay. Myron: It's paid, it's $97 for the general admission and 297 for VIP. Russell: And then what's the... Two follow up questions. Number one. What's the name of your challenge? And then is the challenge happening live throughout the week or is it prerecorded or how do you structure that? He's on the golf course, so it's breaking up a little bit, but so we said it is live and then the other question was just, what was the actual name of your challenge? We can go funnel hacking, go sign up for it. Myron: Yeah. So the name of the challenge is the Make More Offers challenge because I teach people the number one challenge, the number one problem, most business owners have. They don't make enough offers. So I teach them to make more offers and to make more money. And so Make More Offers Challenge and yeah, it's a paid challenge. One $97 for the general mission, 297 for VIP. Russell: Awesome. Well, thank you, Myron. Appreciate jumping on. I hear the birds in the background, you should get back to golfing. Thanks for jumping on real quick and sharing your biggest marketing secret. And I'm grateful for you as always. And just as a side note for everyone who's listening, the Make More Offers challenge, that's a cool name. If you think about the people in this game who have the most success, honestly, are the ones who make the most offers, right? They're trying different things. We just did a very fascinating study with our ClickFunnels data, went through man, like one and a half million people have signed up for ClickFunnels trial over time. And it's crazy, if someone joins ClickFunnels and they buy at least one thing from it. It could be a book, it could be a $7 report, it could be anything, their stick rate triples. And so a lot of times you might go, "Well, I just sell one thing." It's like, yeah, but the more offers you make, the better buyers they become. I remember TJ Rohleder who is one of my mentors in direct mail. And he's brilliant marketer, but essentially you can go and you can actually rent his buyer list. Where you can send his buyers your offers in the mail. And I told him like, "Aren't you worried if other people were making offers to your buyers, they're going to quit buying from you?" And he said, "No, no. You're looking at it backwards." He's like the more people buy, he said buyers stay in motion. And the more they buy, the more they'll continue to buy. So he's like, "I'm going to sell my people stuff, but I want other people to sell them stuff as well, because if they're buying somebody else's offer, they're more likely to buy mine as well because buyers like to buy stuff." And he's like, "If they stop buying, that's worse." He's like, "If I don't send them something in the mail each week, if they're not getting other offers, so they're not continuing to buy. They actually cool off and they become worse buyers over time." And so it's fascinating for us looking at the data from seven years now. It's like, if they've purchased anything from me, like a book, anything, they seek three times longer on ClickFunnels than if they just sign up for ClickFunnels and that's it. So make more offers. We can go on like a two hour podcast just about that alone, how powerful it is. But anyway, so it's awesome. So thank you Myron, for sharing all that. Myron: I'll be happy to jump on and do a two hour podcast with you anytime you're ready Russell. Russell: Awesome. We'll have to plan that. Well, thank you Myron so much for jumping on, and this has been fun so far. So we've got two guests down. We've got one more to go. Yhennifer, you want to introduce our next guest? Yhennifer: Yes. Awesome. Let me reset the room really quickly, guys. If you're finding value in this room, please follow the speakers on the panel. Click the little plus sign and invite five friends right there at the bottom. You can also click on the monopoly house at the top where it says Marketing Secrets Live, so that you can follow this club and get a notification when Russell goes live again. All right, the next speaker on up is Dan Henry. Dan is the founder of getclients.com. He's a bestselling author and a eight figure award winner. Welcome Dan to the room today. Dan Henry: Hey, how's it going guys? Russell: Doing awesome. Dan, great to hear from you. Always awesome to hang out and have you on. I would say before we kick this off officially, I think you are probably one of the most colorful characters inside of our community, which makes it fun. Sometimes I get nervous. Sometimes I get excited and back and forth, but always respect and always grateful for you and awesome to have you here. So my question for you that I'm excited to hear your thoughts because you're a deep thinker who goes, sometimes our thoughts counteract each other, which is kind of fun as well. But I'm curious for you right now in your business, in the spot you're at, what is the biggest marketing secret that you're finding right now that's working for you guys? Dan: Well, I've always, as you know, Russell, I've always used polarity to... But that's something I've used for years, and I always say if you make enough noise, all eyes will be on you, make sure you're selling something. And I think a lot of people think that they don't use polarity or if they use polarity they're going to turn off a bunch of people. But that's the thing, is you use polarity in your daily life whether you intend to or not. If you go to church and you walk out of that church, an atheist is going to drive by and be like, "That guy sucks." And vice versa. It's like, if you go to the gym and you're in shape, somebody who's not shape is going to look at you and be jealous. You're polarizing anyway. So you might as well get paid for it. And so of the things that we made a radical, radical shift in our business was what I like to call, and I learned from you, the value ladder. I would call this sort of the reverse value ladder. So we start with high ticket. I pretty much don't build a value ladder until I hit at least one million with a high ticket offer. Because the way I view it, if you're good enough, if your offer is good enough to book calls and close sales and do well, it's the engine, right? The other stuff around it is the fuel that pours into the engine. So what we did was we started selling high ticket only, and it just radically transformed our business. And then I tacked the book on and some low ticket products to fuel it, to scale it even further. And we've been able to, I mean, I'm not on social media that much anymore. I'm not that active anymore, and we've done... We have million-dollar days, we have million-dollar weeks. I just launched a hundred-thousand-dollar offer within like hours, landed a client for that. I mean, and everything else just supports that. And I think a lot of people don't realize that there are two segments of the market. There are low ticket buyers and there are high ticket buyers. Low ticket buyers either won't buy your high ticket ever, or they require multiple products, multiple touch points, months, and months, or even years of following to ascend them to be a high ticket buyer. And that's true and that works, but there's also a segment of the market that are already high ticket buyers. That are ready to pay you a high ticket price right now, and nobody markets to them. Because almost every book, almost every guru out there, almost every direct response marketer, talks about low ticket and the language of low ticket buyers. So those high ticket buyers they're already ready to buy. It's literally a blue ocean, but most people don't know how to talk to them. So what I did is I literally deleted all my low ticket stuff. I started speaking to the high ticket buyers first. I still use polarity, that still works. And then once I've tapped into that fully and the machine is oiled, then I tacked in the low ticket stuff. To take those low ticket buyers and turn them into high ticket buyers. But going after high ticket buyers first as a priority changed everything Russell: Awesome. I actually a hundred percent agree with that. It's interesting. One of my biggest fears when I teach people the value ladder is number one, is that they don't do anything until they've got all the offers and all the value ladder built out, which is the wrong thing. Number two, they start with the, I'm going to go write a book then, which is the hardest thing, as you know. You've written a book too. Of all the things, it's the hardest, and it's the hardest to make profitable. Whereas if someone leads with a higher ticket, a webinar or a high ticket offer, you have more room to mess things up, right? Because you sell one 10,000 or 20,000 whatever client, you can do a lot of things wrong. You can mess up on the ads and mess up on the copy and everything you used in one person and it cleans up all the mess, right? And so typically, like you said, it's easier to get some of that to work out of the gate and then scale-out to call them a cup of whatever that is. And then coming back and saying, "Hey, I need more ways to bring people into this offer." And that's when a book offer does well, or things like that. Hormozi did the same thing, he had his high ticket thing, killing it. And then he wrote a book and then his book offer, if you guys go through his book offer, he doesn't have anything else to say. So you buy the book, and the next page is like, cool you bought the book. Apply now for the high ticket coaching. And he did find that he was able to get more buyers coming in that way, but it was leading with the high ticket. And I think for most people, especially if you're getting started, this is one of the easier, faster ways. I think the biggest problem people have a lot of times is just the belief that they can actually sell high ticket when they're first beginning, which is probably more of the problem. But man, the metrics and the math make way more sense when you lead with that, for sure. Dan: That's who got me into high ticket originally, it was Hormozy. I met him backstage at a ClickFunnels event and he's like, "Dan, how much money did you make this month?" And I'm like, "One million." And he's like, "How much did you spend?" I'm like, "700,000." And he's like, "Cool. I made like two million and I spent like a hundred grand." I'm like, "You must be so good at Facebook ads." And he's like, "No, I suck at Facebook ads. My cheapest offer is 16 grand." And my mind just exploded when he said that. And ever since then, everything I've done has been revolving around that. But I want to make a point. You said that your biggest fear was that people do the value ladder wrong. And I think that's a point that everybody needs to hear. There's a difference between learning what to do, how to do it and how to do it well, how to execute it. And I will tell you, most people funnel hacking, value ladder. They do it wrong. They want to build out the whole thing first or instead of modeling someone's funnel, they just go and copy it word for word. And they don't realize that there's what to do, there's how to do it and how to do it well. I think that's a big thing, is the stuff you teach. I mean, you were the person that got me started in this game. I made $25 million and it has literally started from the moment I saw you on an ad going, "Buy my dotcom secrets book." And I bought that book, and now what, I don't know, five, whatever, how many ever years later, four years, five years, I've made $25 million. And I'll tell you that if I were to say one thing, that is the difference between people who make it and people who don't, is a lack of comprehension. Nobody gives effort into comprehending what somebody says. They just look at it and go, "Okay, cool." And then they don't really go, "Okay, why does this work? What's the science behind this?" And they just take a superficial action. So I think your stuff is amazing, Russell. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here right now. But I do think people need to put more effort into understanding how to do it well. Russell: A hundred percent. Yep. People look to service level. There's a method to this and if you go deeper, you can see why it works, not just how it works so. Well, awesome, man. Well, thank you, Dan. Thank you, Keenya. Thank you, Myron, for jumping on the first half of the Marketing Secrets Live show. For those who are on live, this is fun. So we're going to have two more sessions of this live podcast. If you're listening to the recording of this, make sure you go to clubhousewithrussell.com. Go and register and that way in the future, when we go live, you'll get notified on your phone. And you come hang out with us live and have some fun.

A late night conversation with my dad about how entrepreneurs can protect their personal assets. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com Also, don’t forget to check out bookease.com ---Transcript--- Hey, what's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Podcast. This is actually a really cool late night edition. I'm at my house right now. It is getting close to midnight. I'm hanging out with my dad, who's in town and we're talking about business and some stuff and folks who know my dad, he does a lot of business structuring and accounting and stuff for a lot of the funnel hackers. In fact, almost everybody who joins the Tacoma Callbacks Program eventually ends up getting my dad to set up their books and their company and everything. So he's a lot of experience with a lot of our entrepreneurs, and we're talking about protection and how to protect yourself from creditors and predators. And not only from a business standpoint, but from personal standpoint. And so we thought, hey, while we're sitting here talking about this, we might as well record a podcast. Now, I don't do a lot of podcasts that are interviews, which is kind of fun having my dad here. And I'll also state that I'm not a lawyer or I'm not giving you legal advice, something you should definitely look into yourself. If you do want help structuring these kinds of things that we're talking about. My dad and his company is available to help that. And we'll talk about that kind of at the end of this podcast. So with that said, we're going to cue the theme song, when we come back, I'll have the chance to introduce you to my dad. All right everybody welcome back. Like I said, we're excited to hear tonight, at the kitchen table, all of the kids are finally in bed. And my dad and I are talking about business and excited to have him here and kind of share some really cool things with you guys. Things that a lot of times, as entrepreneurs don't think about, we think about creating things and selling things. And a lot of times we don't think about protecting ourselves. And so that's what people like my dad do is help us with those kinds of things. So, we can keep selling stuff, keep creating stuff, not ended up losing a lot of the things that we've earned. Anything from houses to your money, to all sorts of stuff. And so that's what we're talking about tonight. So, dad, how are you feeling tonight? Ross Brunson: I'm feeling really good, Russell. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to chat with you and with your audience tonight. I think it should be fun. Russell: Yeah. So, what we're going to start with is I know in the past we've talked about protecting your business, and how you structure entities. I know you do that for a ton of people in the ClickFunnels community, a lot of funnel hackers and things like that. I don't even know how many of our people we sent your way. I know that there's been a lot, but I'm curious, like just with all the people that you're working with, you're setting a business, people thinking past just their business structure and think about the personal stuff or just kind of the business stuff typically right now? Ross: Well, most people, when they contact me, they're interested in protecting their business and that's understandable because they're just going into business and there's a lot of roadblocks out there, a lot of pitfalls that they can step into. And so they come to me and they talk to me about what type of business should I have? Should it be a corporation? Should it be an LLC? Should it be some other type of entity? And we go through and we discuss that. And we like to discuss things with our clients, we point out three major points that we like to address as we are talking to them about their businesses. One, we like to make sure that the business that we helped them, set up around there, the structure we set up around their business. We want to make sure that it gives the best liability protection to the individual. The second thing is we want to make sure that it's easy to operate in. You don't spend all your time working on the business and not have any time to sell your products to people or develop customers and things. And the third thing we like to look at is to see if there is some sort of inherent tax savings ability within the entity that you might be able to take advantage of if you find that you are starting to make a lot of money in your business, and you're spending a lot of money in the taxes. So those are the things we've kind of discussed over time with a lot of your clients. And it's been very well-received, and we've helped hundreds of your internet marketing... Russell: Entrepreneurs, super nerds, whatever we want to call ourselves. Ross: Whatever you want to call yourselves… Russell: Funnelhackers! Ross: set up their businesses. Russell: What's funny is that, and we've told this in other times we've talked publicly, but like when I first started my business, I think I'm like a lot of entrepreneurs where we get excited, we start selling things. And then for me, I'd been selling things for like a year and a half or two years. And we were at a family reunion and I was telling my dad, like "I'm making money, selling things on the internet." And he was like, "So, who's doing your books?" I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about?" "Who's paying taxes." I'm like, "That's the cool thing on the internet. There's no taxes. You get to keep all the money." And he was like, "But you have to pay taxes, Russell." So, my dad came up and started to help me structure things way back. And it's almost 18 years ago now, which is crazy. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs come into our coaching programs or come to ClickFunnels, and all they're thinking about sending out was, which is how do I sell something? And so it's been nice as so many people who are selling things, you're coming back and like, "Okay, it's restructuring", getting your business in place. They actually having the right kind of business where you're not getting taxed nearly as much. And all those things that typically we don't think about when we're getting started. We're just excited to try to sell stuff. And so let's call that you're doing the business structure. And I think the second side of it, and this is something I didn't realize until my business started growing, right, is just the legal liability, not only to your business, but also to yourself personally I don't think I would ever believe that people sued other people until like my business started growing. And I literally have full-time legal counsel now because people through ClickFunnels, people are suing ClickFunnels clients that comes to me. There's just all sorts of stuff. And so I'm more and more aware of it all the time. And I think that's, what's fascinating we're talking about tonight is I think a lot of people have structured their business to protect themselves. A lot of them haven't thought about it from the personal standpoint yet. Protecting their personal assets as well. And the personal assets can be a lot of things. Do you want to talk about some of the things that those could be, because it could be anything like all sorts of stuff. Ross: Yeah. As you're saying, people spend a lot of time and effort protecting their business assets, but they don't think about their personal assets. When I say personal assets, I mean, things like most people have a savings account. Some people invest in money market accounts or they'll purchase CDs from banks, or maybe they'll set up a brokerage account and purchase stocks and bonds and mutual funds and things, maybe they're into Bitcoin. Russell: Yeah. Bitcoin Ross: Then... Russell: Buying cryptocurrency, we're buying Russell coin and all sorts of stuff. Ross: Right. And so people buy those things and are they also purchase homes and cars and boats. And then they create businesses. And a lot of people like to purchase rental real estate. And they do this and this is great because this is how they grow their family wealth. But the problem is, is that they title everything in their own name when they do this. Personally in their own name. Russell: It's interesting, because I sit at my big point count with all my personal name. And then we recently company ones and it's way harder to get a company one set up, because my guess is most of you guys have your Bitcoin, especially if you're using a Coinbase or Gemini or one of the big crypto things. You're probably, at least if you're like me, you just set up on your personal name, could you even think about it? You're like, oh, this is way easier. Anyway. So yeah. I'm guessing that most of us, including me have done this incorrectly at the get go. Ross: Yeah. Russell: So, the question then I'd add is, okay, so we've talked about a particular business, but like what's... It will say I have this stuff, I have my cryptocurrency, I've got my house, I got my car. I got my things, all my personal name. Why is that a problem? Why should I be concerned about that? Ross: Yeah. That's a very good question. If you think about it, if you have everything titled in your own name, it belongs to you personally and they call those personal assets and unfortunately personal assets can be taken from you. For example, let's just say, one day you're driving down the freeway at freeway speeds. Maybe you're at 65, 70 miles an hour and somebody or something distracts you for a mere second and you look away and you're dealing with this and you look up and you find that all the traffic in front of you is stopped and you don't have enough time to put on your brakes. And bam, you hit into the back end of this car at 65 or 75 miles an hour at that type of an impact, he's going to probably hurt the guy's back, break his back or snap his neck. Russell: 13 car pile-up. Ross: 13 car pile ups, yeah. And so at that point in time, let's say it was a serious accident. Let's say there was a neck broken or a back broken. And the person became paralyzed and could no longer work for the rest of his life. And in that situation, he's going to have a lot of medical bills right up front. And then he's going to have to have round the clock care the rest of his life. And the amount of money you have for your insurance policy on your cars is not going to be enough, no matter how much you have to take care of that. And so if one of those things were to occur, the courts would want to find out if you own any assets that they can take from you and give to this injured party to compensate them for that injury. And so let's say this person's files his lawsuit against you. And it looks like he's going to be able to win. The courts are going to then give you a list and say, we need you to list out all your assets for us. Russell: Give us your Bitcoin now! Ross: Do you have a savings account? Well, yeah, I guess I do. Do you have bank CDs? Yeah, I got some of those. What about money market accounts. Yeah. I got some of those. You have a brokerage account with stocks, bonds mutual funds? Yeah. I got some of that. Bitcoin? Yeah, I got some of that. Russell: Do you have a boat, do you have a car? What do you got? Ross: What do you got? Boats, cars, all these things, and you're telling them and the judge is going good, good, good, good. Russell: Now we know what you got. Ross: Now we know what we've got. And so he says, this guy is going to need round the clock care, the rest of his life, it's going to be extremely expensive and you injured him. It was your fault. So we're going to take all these personal assets that you own that are titled in your name. And we're going to change the title out of your name, into the name of this person that was injured. And so you could lose every single thing you've been building all your life for many years, possibly just because you were distracted for a mere second while traveling down the freeway. Russell: This is the reason why everyone should drive Teslas because Tesla's have auto drive, which would solve that problem. But we're not selling Tesla's tonight, but it's not just that like, it could be all sorts of things, right? It could be a car accident. It could be somebody sues you for a million things. They took one of your supplements that you sell and it got them sick. It could be... I mean, there's a million different things. I mean, the number of lawsuits that happen nowadays is insane. And people try to sue you over everything. So it could be as ridiculous as like, I didn't like your tweet, you posted the other day, as dumb as that is, people can sue you for that stuff. Or they didn't like the way you respond or whatever it is. I'm curious do you know how many lawyers do we have nowadays? How many lawsuits are happening on average? Ross: Yeah, I have some statistics actually… Russell: This makes me want to cry actually. Ross: The US financial education foundation and they have done a study. And they say that it's estimated that there's over 40 million lawsuits filed every year in the United States. And that you asked about the number of lawyers, they say that the average number of lawyers exceeds over 1 million lawyers in our country at this point in time. But if you take that 40 million lawsuits and let's say just divided it by 365 days a year, I mean, that's Saturday, Sundays, holidays. It would still come out to 109,589 lawsuits filed each day in the United States. Russell: Looking at per state, you're looking at that divide by 50. I don't know the math, but that's a lot. Yeah. They're coming after you. So, my question is, and it's fun that very first time my dad taught me this stuff. And the very first event I ever did, what is that, probably 17, 18 years ago, first time I ever did an internet marketing event. My dad came and gave a presentation and he titled his presentation, creditors and predators. And so the question is how do we protect ourselves and our assets from both creditors and predators, people who are coming after us? And I want you to understand too, like, it is insane. The amount of frivolous lawsuits, like the bigger you get, the more you're going to get. I get frivolous lawsuits. They come to us, they're just insane, where you're like just people literally trying to find money. I'll give you a good example of one is somebody signed up for ClickFunnels, And when you sign up, it says, hey, you put in your credit card, and then it says, if my billing doesn't go through, a credit card fails, please text me so that my service doesn't get interrupted, and they type in their phone number. Somebody did that. They signed up for ClickFunnels account, put their credit card in, put in their cell phone number, clicked little check boxes said, "Yes, text me if my credit card fails", it turns out they put in a credit card that was like one of those throwaway ones. And so the first bill went through, but then 30 days later, the bill didn't go through. So our system fired off a text message like that to, they got this text message. And then they filed a TCPA law case against us. And we got sued and it costs me $20,000 to fight this one lawsuit. And we won because the person who checked the box, but cost me 20 grand to fight it. Okay? And that was like one text message was sent and anyway, so it's insane. People can see you for anything, even if it's complete fake. That person that we found, Larry, find the person who did that. And they filed like a thousand TCPA cases a week or something like that. Just because they signed for everything, putting their cell phone number in and they're suing everybody. So like, there's people like that. These are the predators that are out there that are trying to do these things. And it happens to me more often, the bigger we get and it's insane to me, which is why we have legal counsel and we have these things, but I just want to put that out there because most guys you might "Oh, that's never going to happen to me", but as you start growing your business, it's going to happen. And so you got to start thinking about these things now, and protecting yourself now, because the bigger you get, the bigger target you become. Ross: Right. And so we want to be able to protect our assets and you might ask, "Well, okay, how do we do that? I understand protecting my business assets. I can go ahead and set up an LLC or corporation to protect my business assets. But how do I protect my personal assets? What am I going to do? And how is it even possible that I could protect those types of things?" Well, there was a very famous statement by Nelson Rockefeller. I don't know if you know the Rockefeller family, they're the ones that started standard oil, they're some of the major families in the world. Russell: Rockefeller Habits is an amazing book if you guys haven't read it yet. Ross: Yeah, and so they've made lots and lots of money. And of course, as they, just like Russell said, as Russell started making money, people started suing them. Well, same thing happened with the Rockefellers. They started making a lot of money and people wanted it and they started getting sued and they were losing. And they were losing their assets because people were suing them. And so they finally it came, it dawned on them and they made this really interesting statement that I think everybody should know and understand. And they said basically the secret to success is to own nothing but control everything. Russell: I like that. So, that's awesome. The secrets to success is to own everything or to own nothing, but to control everything. So how does somebody like me? How would we do something like that? Ross: Okay, great. Well, we do that by using another type of an entity. We talked about corporations and limited liability companies for your business assets, but there are really nice entity types for your personal assets. And one of them would be called the limited family partnership or limited partnerships. And so they call them nickname, and kind of limited family partnerships because families set these things up all the time they're used in estate work. if you're trying to set up a way to pass on your estate to your children and your grandchildren, the attorneys will use a limited partnership to do that. That's one of the main functions of it, but it can come into play and help us out here when we're trying to protect our personal assets. And so how can it do that? What characteristics does it have that allows it to do that? Well, the first characteristic comes from the way our laws define the term person. Now, Russell, if I was to ask you, "Who's a person? What's a person?" What would you say? Russell: I’d say human being with a brain and a heart. At least a heart. I don't know. Some of them don't have brains. I'm not going to lie, just kidding. Ross: And they’re still currently alive, right? Because if they were dead, they'd be a corpse. So, that would be a person. And yeah, that is actually a good definition of a person. But our laws say, "Well, that's not quite right. In our opinion", they say, "We feel a person as a corporation. We feel a person as a limited liability company. We feel a person has a limited partnership. We feel a person is a trust. And we feel a person as a living, breathing individual, that's alive here on this earth", so they greatly expand the definition of a person. Now, the interesting thing, when they do that, they expand that definition they have a little twist in there that's really beneficial to us. That twist is they say, "Even though you created this person, and even though you control this person a hundred percent, and even if this person owned any assets and those assets generated income, and that income you take and use for yourself, even if all those things are true and happens, that person is not you, it's someone separate and distinct from you." And this person can... Our laws give these artificial people the same rights and privileges that you and I have as individuals. They can have their own name just like we have our own name. They can have their own EIN number, which is similar to our social security number. They can hold title to any type of property that you can think of. They can open up savings accounts, money market accounts, Bitcoin accounts they can do all these things. They can, if someone's bothering them, they can sue that person under their own name. So they can do all these things in their own name. And so because of that fact, we are able to utilize these characteristics of a separate person from us to be able to provide liability protection for our personal assets. Russell: You're saying the characteristics of limit of these people sound like my own kids, except for you said that you can control them, and then they have to listen to you. So it's kind of like a teenager, except for you have no control over your teenagers. They don't listen to you. So, very similar. Ross: Yeah. So how can we use these characteristics to own nothing but control everything? Well, first off, as we mentioned, we'd like to create a limited family partnership that we can control. Remember, we control it, we create it, we control it, we reap the benefits of any income returns, so we do that. And then what we would want to do is transfer the title to your savings account out of your name and into the name of the limited partnership. Remember we said, it can open up its own bank, account savings, account money, market accounts, and things. If you have any money market accounts, you'd want to immediately change the title into the limited partnership, the name of the limited partnership. If you had stocks and bonds and mutual funds and a brokerage account, you'd want to shift those over into the name of the limited partnership. If you have bank or a Bitcoin account, what do you call those, wallets? With the Bitcoins in. You'd want to change the name into the name of the limited partnership and not your personal name. And by doing that, now this person owns those assets and you don't, you no longer own them, but as I mentioned, you control them. And if they make money, the money belongs to you, but that person is not you. So, that fact that that person is not you. How is that going to help you? Well, let's go back to that accident we talked about traveling down the freeway and you're distracted and boom, you hit into this person. And now the courts are asking you to list your assets. And you know that you've wisely beforehand, titled all these assets into the name of your limited partnership. So, now you look at their list that they're wants you to fill out for assets. And they're saying, do you have a savings account? No, I don't. Do you have a brokerage account? No. Any money market accounts? No. Any bank CDs? No. Bitcoin accounts? No. And you're answering truthfully because they're under our laws those assets do not belong to you. They belong to this other person that's not you. Russell: You control that person though. Therefore… you can ride in the boat whenever you want to. Ross: That's right. Exactly. And so the nice thing is, is if you think about it, in that accident we talked about, it was you driving the car that caused that accident to occur. Well, was your limited partnership in the car with you? No. Did the limited partnership distract you in any way while you were driving? No. The limited partnership teach you how to drive a car? No. Did limited partnership manufacture the car? No. That limited partnership didn't do anything to be involved in that accident, to cause that accident to have occurred. It has done nothing to cause that to happen. And because of the fact that that's the case, that person is innocent in the eyes of our laws. And so a court cannot go. through you, the person that caused the accident to this other person, who's not you, and was not involved in the accident and take that person's assets from them. They can't do that. So, all of a sudden, now you have a very safe place to title and hold title to your personal assets that a creditor, or predator can not get to no matter what you do in your personal life, but it's even better than that. It's also protected from anything you do in your business life. Because as an LLC or as a corporation, they had that veil of liability protection that keeps this creditor or predator that's suing your business from going through the business itself to the owners and taking their assets. So it's protected from anything you do in your business life, anything you do in your personal life. And so, as a result, you have a probably only place that you can have to have this type of protection for your personal assets. Russell: So can limited family partnerships be sued? Ross: That's a very good question. Can they be sued? Because if they could be sued all those assets you're titling there could be taken, right? Just like if they're in your name and you injure somebody, they can be taken. So can they be sued? Well, if you think about it, when it comes to a person or a business being sued, there's only about four reasons why a lawsuit can occur. One, if a person creates a product, and sells that product, and the person buys that product and it's injures them, then that person could Sue the business. Or let's say that the business was a service business, it was providing services for people. And they paid for those services, and then down the road felt that they were injured somehow or another, they could Sue the business. Or let's say if the business gave out advice and people took that advice and something happened and they felt they were injured. Well, if they did that, they could sue that person or that business who gave out that advice. And the only other way the business could be sued is if that business or that entity partners up with someone else, either another living, breathing individual, or even another artificial person. And the two partners got mad at each other and wanted to sue each other, then a lawsuit can occur. But the way these limited partnerships that we create are set up, it will never provide a product ever. It will never provide a service to anybody. It never gives out any advice. And the only person it could ever partner up with would be you and no one else, so… Russell: you can’t sue yourself. Ross: You can't sue yourself. Russell: At least you shouldn't. Ross: And so as a result, there's no way it can be sued. It's just a kind of a silent partner that holds title to all your possessions that you can control and reap the benefits from that cannot be sued. And so those assets cannot be taken from you out of that limited partnership. Russell: Okay. So, set up limited family partnership, we put our assets, we put our things into that. Then what's the next step? What do we do with the assets and stuff after they're in there? Ross: Okay. You would do like you would do if you had them titled in your own name, let's say you had a savings account. Well, as your businesses are doing well, you're receiving excess money out of your business over and above your normal monthly expenses. You most likely want to create a savings account. So you'd create a savings account in the name of your limited partnership, and you started funding money into it. Maybe down the road that's growing, you're feeling good about it. And then maybe you'd say, "Well, a money market account may give me a little better interest. So I'm going to open up a money market account as well. So I'm going to start pumping some money there." Then may be one day you're in the bank. And the banks manager says, "Look at these great CD rates we've got. You ought to purchase a CD, a bank CD", and you look at them and you say, "Well, yeah, that's pretty nice, better than I can get some other places. So yeah, I'll invest in some bank CDs." Russell: When you're on Facebook, and you're like, "Everyone's talking about crypto. That's got to be the greatest thing in the world." Ross: Right. So you would set up your crypto account in the name of your limited partnership and you start funding these things, all these things, that you're going to grow your wealth in are all going to be titled in the name of this limited partnership. So, in essence, what happens is that limited partnership becomes your family bank. This is where you hold your wealth. This is where you grow your wealth in your family bank, in this safe environment where people, they can't sue you if you injured them personally, and they can't sue you and take those assets, if you injured them in the course of your business. So that's what we would want to do is start funding these things, creating our own family bank, where we can then grow those funds. Now, as you're growing those funds, there's another benefit to it. Not only do you have a place to store your money and grow it, but most entrepreneurs that I've found they find something that they like and they set up a new business and then down the road, they say, "Well, I see 10 other businesses. I'd like to get involved in." Russell: Shiny object syndrome. Ross: Yeah. I'd like to get into e-commerce or man I'd like to get into rental real estate or man there's all these great things I can invest my money into. And I'd like to do some of that. And so let's say that you want to get into rental real estate. And you start looking at properties, and you then say, "Okay, here's a house I'd like to buy", but then you look at your personal assets. Well, do you have a savings account? No, because it's titled in the name of your limited partnership. Do you have money market accounts, brokerage accounts, anything in your name? Well, no you don't because you don't own those things anymore. So they're all owned and controlled by your limited partnership and it's controlled by you. So you had that money growing in there. And let's say that you're sitting there thinking to yourself, "I have the money to buy this rental real estate, but I would sure like to do it if I had the money." Then you could look to your family bank, which now kind of becomes the investment arm of your business, because it's going to say, "Well, I have the money I've saved all this money. I have the money available to purchase this rental real estate with." And so the limited partnership says, "Let's partner up together and I'll put the money in and you use the money and buy the rental property and we'll share the profits 50/50." And so now you have another stream of income flowing towards your limited partnership besides what you personally contribute to it. And so now you're going to have a chance of growing your wealth at a faster pace than what you would have done normally. So it not only becomes your family bank, but it becomes the investment arm of your overall business structure. Russell: Very cool. And they can use that to invest in all sorts of stuff like you said, from real estate, they can do it in Bitcoin, they could do it in a new business opportunity. They could do it in Funnel Hacking Live. They could do it in some secrets books. They could buy one funnel away challenge. They could buy all my products, my service, I’m sure that’s be the best thing they could invest in. Ross: Well, yeah, you've got a good track record there. Russell: The Inner Circle, if I ever open it up again, Two Comma Club Coaching Program. Anyway, I don't know if that's legal advice or I don't know if that's investment advice, you have to ask your legal authorities, but anyway there's a lot of things, obviously, you can use start investing money in to start growing your wealth portfolio over time. Ross: Right? Your family wealth. So it's a very wonderful entity type that can protect you and give you that confidence in that feeling of safety, knowing that your personal assets are also protected, not just your business assets through your LLC or your S Corp or whatever, not only are those protected, but also your personal assets are protected. And that's a great position to be in. And knowing that even if I slip up, accidentally, people can't get to those assets. So, anyway, it's a great way to take care of your personal assets. Russell: It makes you sleep better at night. I think that's one the biggest things I found over the last five or six years is just the more ways we protect ourselves, the easier it is to sleep at night knowing you can keep moving forward and keep fulfilling your mission and doing what you're called to do. So, all right. So my question for you next, and then we'll kind of wrap after this is for those who are listening to this, that's awesome. I need that. Or maybe they even like step back and they're like, "I don't even have my business structure, yet", so kind of both sides. If you're like, I'm a new entrepreneur, I don't have a business yet. Or if like I got my business stuff structured, I think that's correct, but I’d like someone to look at it, or number three is like, I want to do this piece of it. I need to get my personal assets protected as well, which I think a lot of people haven't done that step yet. Obviously, this podcast isn't about giving legal advice, but I noticed something that you do for a lot of people, a lot of people in our community, if someone wants to have your help getting any of these things kind of set up, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Ross: Well, a lot of people will find us by going to our website, which is www.bookease.com. So, that's B-O-O-K-E-A-S-E bookease.com. And on there, you'll see a picture of me. You can click on that and it'll be able to take you to my calendar. And you could then schedule a time on our calendar for us to speak. Or my email address is very easy. It's just Ross@bookease.com. So you can email me and say, "Hey, I'd like to talk with you". I will then send you a link to my calendar and we will then set up a time to talk with each other. So, either my email address, or bookease.com, the website address. Russell: Again that's B-O-O-K-E-A-S-E.com. And I want to say something, I want to say two things. Number one is I don't get anything for telling you about this other than my dad's awesome. And he's helped so many people in our community, so I don't get paid for this. But number two is my dad always undercharges on everything. I keep trying to get him to triple his prices. So just there's not someone who's going to do a better job with this for you, and honestly, at a cheaper price. So someday I'm going to convince him to charge what he's worth. And then none of you guys were able to afford him, but just kidding. But like, in all honesty, like everyone always inside of the Two Comma Club Coaching Program everyone in module one, they go get their business set up with my dad and they always come back like "He explained all this stuff to me I never understood before. And it was so inexpensive!" So it's like, yeah. So it's amazing what he does. And it'll help you guys get, again, your limited family partnership set up if you're looking for that. Or, again, if you're getting your business just started and you need that stuff set up as well. You also, if they don't have bookkeeping and there's a whole bunch of things, you can help them kind of get set up in their business, which are all good. Ross: Yes. Yep. We'd love to chat with you. And I'm the one you'd be talking to. I like to spend a good hour with each new customer and we talk about the strengths and weaknesses of entity types which one is best for them under their certain circumstances. And so we pretty much tailor make our programs for each individual. Russell: Yeah. So, take advantage of that you guys. It's an amazing service and yeah. Go to bookease.com and get started. So, dad, that said, thanks for hanging out tonight with me because that was fun, but second of all, thanks for sharing this piece of, I think, as we were talking about before we started recording, there's just so many entrepreneurs who haven't even thought about this, and usually when you think about this is when it's too late. And so it's good to kind of get this in the forefront of people's minds and help them to be aware of it and get it structured and set up, because not that hard to get it structured. And then you have it as protection makes you sleep better at night and someday when you need it, you've got it. Ross: That's right. You want it set up before the lawsuit hits. Russell: If you get in a wreck, don't call my dad up like, "Help, quick." Yeah, now is the time. That's awesome. Thanks dad. Thanks everybody. If you guys got value from this episode, please take a screenshot of it post on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you do your social stuff and tag me in it. And also all your other entrepreneur friends who are just like me and you who are chasing all the shiny objects, building businesses, and even thinking about how to protect ourselves. Let them know about this episode, so they can know about limited family partnerships. They can know about my dad. He can help them out as well and get your stuff set up and protected. And that way you can just worry about really doing what's most important in your business, which is serving your audience. But getting these things set up will make you sleep better at night and help protect you longterm. So, thank you, dad. Thank you everyone for listening and I will see you guys on the next episode of the marketing secrets podcast. Ross: Yes. Thank you. Appreciate the chance to be with you today. Russell: Go to bookease.com. Let's go! See you guys.

Replay of a special conversation I had on stage at a Traffic Secrets event with a friend and a student, Nic Fitzgerald. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson and I want to welcome you to the Marketing Secrets podcast. The next two episodes are a really special one. For our Two Comma club X members and our inner circle members I did an event recently, some of you guys heard me talk about it. It was a traffic secrets event, where I’m getting all the material ready for the book. And the night before when I was doing all the prep work I had this thought. I was like, I want to bring up somebody on stage and it’s somebody who was a friend I grew up with in elementary school, and junior high, and high school, someone who was down on their luck, who was really, really struggling. About a year ago I saw him post something on Facebook and I reached out, and this interview is happening about a year later. He tells his story about what happened and the transformation and the change that’s happened by being involved inside our Clickfunnels, Funnel Hacker community. So I wanted to share that with you as part of the event, so this first half is going to be Nic kind of telling his story and it’s going to be the story from the bottom of the barrel where they were, they literally made $25,000 a year for 3 years in a row and then the transformation to this year, they’ll do well over six figures. And that’s going to be this first podcast. And the second podcast episode is, I did a live coaching session with him on stage, and I want to share that with you as well because I think there’s a lot of things for you specifically that you can get from this episode too. So the next few episodes are going to be sharing this really fun conversation that happened late night at the Traffic Secrets event with my friend Nic Fitzgerald, and if you think that name sounds familiar, I have talked about him before on this podcast. In fact, a little over a year ago I did a podcast episode called “Being a Rainmaker” that was a personalized podcast that I sent to Nic specifically to help him with what he was struggling with at the time. So anyway, I wanted to share this with you because it will take you full circle to show you kind of the progress and the momentum and things that are happening in his life, and I think it will be encouraging for you to hear the story because no matter where you are in your journey right now, if you are struggling, doing well, or if you’re somewhere in between, there are parts of this story that will resonate with you. And in the second episode where I coach Nic I think will help everybody as well. So with that said, let’s jump right in and have some fun. I want to introduce you to my friend Nic Fitzgerald. Alright so I want to set the tone for the next hour or so of what the game plan is. So I have a first initial question that I’m curious about with everyone here. I’m curious, who since they joined the Two Comma Club X program has had some kind of experience with Mr. Nic Fitzgerald? That’s powerful, I’m going to talk about why in a little bit, but very, very cool. So some of the back story behind this, and then we’re going to introduce him up, and when he comes up I want you guys to go crazy and scream and cheer and clap, because it will be good, and then I want him to sit down so we’ll be the same height, which will be good, it’ll be fun. So some of the back story, I actually met Nic the very first time in elementary school, and even in elementary school he was a foot and a half taller than me, which is amazing. He was like 6 ft 2 in like third grade, it was amazing. But we knew each other when we were dorky little kids and going up through elementary school we were both doing our things, and we didn’t have a care in the world and everything’s happening. And as we got older he kept getting taller, I stopped growing. And then we got into high school and he kept growing and he joined the basketball team. I didn’t keep growing so I went downstairs in the basement, literally, at our high school in the basement they call it the rubber room, and it’s this room that smells like, I don’t even know, but it’s under the gym. So he would go upstairs and fans would show up and people would cheer for them, and scream at their games. And all the girls would come to the games. And we’d go down in the rubber room by ourselves and cut weight and put on our sweats and lose weight and we’d jump rope and sweat like crazy. And we’d sit there, and I remember one day after working out for two hours pouring in sweat, I had my plastic gear on and my sweats on top of that, my hoodie and my hoods and we got the wrestling mats, and literally rolled ourselves up in the wrestling mats to keep the heat in, and we laid there and we were so hot. And I could hear the basketball players in the gym up above having so much fun and people cheering for them. And all the girls were there. And I was like, “Why are we not playing basketball?” It doesn’t make any sense. But during that time, obviously we were in two different kind of worlds, and we didn’t really connect that much, and then we left our separate ways. And I didn’t hear from him for years and years and years. And then do you guys remember Facebook when it first came out? The first time you got it and you log in and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can connect with people.” And you start searching the friends you know and then you find their friends and you spend a day and a half connecting with every person you’ve ever remembered seeing in your entire life? Do you guys remember that? So I did that one night, I connected with everybody. Everyone in high school, everyone in junior high, or elementary, everyone in every stage of my life, as many as I could think of. And then I was like, I think that’s everybody. Okay, I’ve connected with everybody. And one of those people that night was Nic. And then, but I didn’t say hi, I just friend requested and he requested back and I’m like, cool we’re connected. And then after that I got kind of bored with Facebook for like a year or so. Then a little while later I found out you can buy ads on it and I was like, what, this is amazing. So we started buying ads and everything is happening. And it’s crazy. And then what happened next, I actually want Nic onstage to tell you this story because I want you to hear it from both his perspective and my perspective, I think it’d be kind of interesting. So let’s do this real quick. As you guys know Nic has been a super valuable part of this community since he came in. I’m going to tell the story about how he got here and some of the craziness of how he signed up when he probably shouldn’t have and what’s been happening since then, because I know that you guys have all been part of that journey and been supporting him. How many of you guys are going to his event that’s happening later this week? He just keeps giving and serving, he’s doing all the right things, he’s telling his story, he’s doing some amazing stuff. So my plan now is I want to talk about the rest of the story. I want to tell you guys what I told him a year ago and then I want to tell you guys my advice for him moving forward, because I feel like it’s almost in proxy. I wish I could do that with every one of you guys. Just sit down here and coach you. But I feel like he’s at a stage where some of you guys aren’t to where he’s at yet and some of you are past that, and some of you guys are right where he’s at, and I feel like the advice that I really want to give him, will help you guys at all different levels. So that’s kind of the game plan. So with that said, let’s stand up and point our hands together for Mr. Nic Fitzgerald. Look how tall I am. I feel like….okay, so I had him find this post because I wanted to actually share a little piece of it. So this, I’m going to share a piece of it, I want to step back to where you were at that time in your life. So this was July 7, 2017, so what was that a year and a half ago, ish? So July 7, 2017 there was a post that said, “Long post disclaimer. I hate posting this, blah, blah, blah.” So at the time my family was about to go on a family vacation. We’re packing up the bags and everything, and you know how it is, you do a bunch of work and then you stop for a second and your wife and kids are gone and you’re like, pull out the phone, swap through the dream 100 and see what’s happening.  And somehow this post pops up in my feed and I see it, I see Nic my buddy from 20+ years ago and I’m reading this thing and my heart sinks for him. Some of the things he says, “I hate posting things like this, but I felt like need to for a while. Being poor stinks. For those friends of mine who are ultra conservative and look down consciously or not, on people like me, I can honestly tell you that I’m not a lazy free loader who wants something for nothing. I’m not a deadbeat who wants Obama or whoever to blame now, to buy me a phone. I’m not a lowlife trying to get the government to pay for my liposuction. I’m not a druggie who eats steak and lobster for dinner with my food stamps. I’m a father of four, a husband, someone who lost everything financially, including our home when the time came to have your healthcare in place or to get fined, I went through the process. “Based on my family size and income, we were referred to the state to apply for those programs. We couldn’t get coverage for ourselves to the exchange in other places, we qualified for Medicaid. After the process was complete, the state worker suggested we try to get some other help, some food stamps.” It kind of goes on and on and on and he says, “In 2016 I made $25000. $25,000 plus our tax returns for the previous year. So a family of 6 living on $25,000 a year is being audited for receiving too much help, too much assistance.” And it kind of goes on and on and on with that. He says, “I’ve never abused drugs or alcohol, I’ve never even tried them. I’m just a guy trying to live the American dream and provide for his family. It’s unfortunate that we look down on those who are trying to better our lives, even if it leaves them from receiving help from assistance in place to help them. Look down on me if you want, I don’t care. I know the truth. My family is healthy and sheltered and that’s all that matters. I don’t wish these trials on anyone else…” and it kind of goes on from there. So I want to take you back to that moment, what was, talk about what you were experiencing and what you were going through during that time. Nic: I didn’t expect this. I’m a friendly giant, but I’m a big boob too. Back at that time, I had started what I thought was, I started my entrepreneurial journey. I was working in film full time, working 12, 14, 16 hour days making $200 a day, just killing myself for my family. Going through the process of, I’d lost my job because I wasn’t going to hit my sales, I was a financial advisor, and I wasn’t going to hit my sales numbers. So you know, my ticket was stamped. So I said okay, I’m going to do my own thing. And in the course of all that, it was time to get your health insurance and those things, and I went through the proper channels, like I felt like I should. And I was referred to the government for the programs, based on the numbers. And as a provider, a father, an athlete competitor, I felt like a failure. We’ve all, when you have to rely on somebody else , or somebody else tells you, “Hey, we don’t think you can do this on your own, come over here and we’ll take care of you.” That’s basically what I was told. So it was hard to accept that and to live with that reality. So we did, and I worked hard and it was a blessing really, to not have to worry about how much health care costs or have some of the things to supplement to feed our family and stuff. So it was great and it was wonderful. But then I got the email from the state saying, “Hey, you’re being audited. We’re just looking at things and we’re not sure. You’ve been getting too much help.” So at that point I’m just sitting there frustrated because I’m working my butt off, just trying to make things happen, become someone involved in the film community in Utah. And I was, and everyone knew me, and I had a reputation, but I still was a nobody in the eyes of the government. So I went to Facebook to whine, looking for what I wanted, which was a pat on the back, “There, there Nic, you’re doing…we know you’re a good dude and you’re working hard.” That kind of thing, and I did… Russell: I was reading the comments last night. “Oh you’re doing a good job man. Good luck.” Everyone like babying him about how tough life can be. Nic: So I got what I wanted, but it still didn’t change anything. I still had to submit my last two years of tax returns and all of the pay that I’d got and everything like that, so they could look at our case number, not Nic, Leisle, Cloe,Ewen, Alek, William. So it was just one of those things. I got what I wanted, then comes Russell to give me what I needed, which was…. Russell: I saw that and I’m like packing the kids bags and everything and I was like, “ah, do I say something?” I don’t want to be that guy like, “Hey, 20 years ago…” and I was like, ah, I kept feeling this. Finally I was like, “hey man, I know we haven’t talked in over 20 years…” This was on Facebook messenger, “we hadn’t talked in like 20 years. I saw your post today and it sucks. And I know what’s wrong, and I can help. But at the same time, I don’t want to be that guy and I don’t want to step on any toes. I know we haven’t talked in 20 years, I have no idea if this is even appropriate. But I know what’s wrong, I can help you. And no, this is not some cheesy MLM I’m trying to pitch you on. But if you’re interested in some coaching, I know what’s wrong.” And I kind of waited and then I started packing the bags again and stuff like that. I’m curious of your thoughts initially as you saw that. Nic: It’s funny because my phone was kind of blowing up with the comments. So I would hear the little ding and I would check. And then I saw that it was a message from Russell, and we had said like, “Hey, what’s up.” And had a few tiny little small talk conversations, but nothing in depth personal. So I saw that he sent a message, so I’m like, “Sweet.” So I look at it, and I was half expecting, because I knew he was successful, I didn’t know about Clickfunnels per se. I knew he had something going on that was awesome, but I didn’t know what it was. So I was wondering, “I wonder what he’s going to say, what he has to say about things?” But I read it and it was funny because when you said, “I don’t want to overstep my bounds. It’s been a long time, I don’t want to step on toes.” Kind of thing, Russell, we all know his athletic accolades and stuff. I was a great basketball player too, I was in the top 200 players in the country my senior year and stuff like that. So I’ve been coachable and played at high levels and been coached by high level guys. So when I read it and he said, “I know what’s wrong and I can help you.” I was just like, “Yes.” That was my reaction. I just did the little, um, fist pump, let’s do this. So I replied back and I thanked him for reaching out and stuff, and I just said, I think I even said, “I’m coachable. I will accept any guidance.” And things like that. Because up until that point in my life, especially in sports, if a coach showed me something, I would do it the way he did, and I would kick the other dude’s butt. I didn’t care. I played against guys who made millions of dollars in the NBA. I dunked, I posterized on Shawn Marion when he was at UNLV my freshman year of college. I started as a freshman in a division one school in college. So I would take, I’ve always been that kind of, I would get that guidance, that direction, I can put it to work. So I was just like, “Dude, Mr. Miyagi me.” I’m 8 days older than him, so I’m like, “young grasshopper, yes you can teach me.” That kind of thing. So I welcomed it and I was excited. I had no idea, because again I didn’t know what he did. I just knew he had a level of success that I didn’t have. And if he was willing to give me some ideas, I was going to hear him out for sure. Russell: It was fun, because then I messaged him back. I’m packing the car and Collette’s like, “We gotta go, we gotta go.” I was like, ah, so I get the thing out and I was like, “This is the deal. I’m driving to Bear Lake, it’s like a six hour drive. I’m going to give you an assignment and if you do it, then I’ll give you the next piece. But most people never do it, so if you don’t that’s cool and I’ll just know it’s not worth your time. But if it’s really worth your time, do this thing. I need you to go back and listen to my podcast from episode one and listen to as many episodes as possible, and if you do that I’ll make you a customized episode just for you telling you exactly what’s wrong and how to fix it. But you have to do that first. “And I’m not telling you this because I’m on some ego trip, but just trust me. The problem is not your skill set, you  have mad skills, you’re good at everything. It’s all a problem between your ears. If we can shift that, we can shift everything else.” Then I jumped in my car and took off and started driving for six hours. And then the next day, or a day later you’re like, “I’m 14 episodes in.” he was still listening to the crappy one’s, according to Steven Larsen. The Marketing In Your Car, he was probably thinking, “This is the worst thing I’ve ever heard, ever.” But he did it. I said do it, he did it. And he kept doing it and doing it, and so two days into my family vacation I had Norah, you guys all know Norah right. She’s the coolest. But she won’t go to bed at night, she’s a nightmare. Don’t let that cute face trick you, she’s evil. So I’m like, I can’t go to sleep, so finally I was like, I’m going to plug her in the car and drive around the lake until she falls asleep. So I plug her in the car, strap her in and I start driving. And I’m like, this could be a long, long thing. She’s just smiling back here. I was like ugh. I’m like you know what, I’m going to do my episode for Nic. So I got my phone out, I clicked record and for probably almost an hour, it was an hour. I’m driving around the lake and I explain to him what I see. Did anyone here listen to that episode? I’m curious. I’m going to map out really quick, the core concept. Because some of you guys may be stuck in this, and the goal of this, what I want to do is I want to map this out, and then what’s funny is last year at Bear Lake, so a year later we had this thing where I was like, we should do a second round where I do a year later, this is the advice now. And I wrote a whole outline for it and I totally never did it. So I’m going to go through that outline now, and kind of show him the next phase. So you cool if I show kind of what I talked about? Nic: For sure. Russell: Alright, so those who missed the podcast episode, who haven’t been binge listening, you’ve all failed the test, now you must go back to episode number one, listen to the cheesy jingle and get to episode, I don’t know what it was. Okay, I’ve said this before, if you look at any business, any organization, there’s three core people. The first one is the person at the top who is the entrepreneur. The cool thing about the entrepreneur is the entrepreneur is the person who makes the most amount of money. They’re the head and they get the most amount of money. The problem with the entrepreneur is they also have the most risk, so they’re most likely to lose everything. I’ve lost everything multiple times because I’m the guy risking everything. But the nice thing is entrepreneurs that write their own paychecks, there’s no ceilings. So they can make as much as they want. They can make a million, ten million, a hundred million, they can do whatever they want because there’s no ceiling. So that’s the first personality type. The second personality type over here is what we call the technicians. The technicians are the people who actually do the work. And what’s funny, if you look at this, people who go to college are the technicians. What do they do, they look down on entrepreneurs, they look down on sales people. “Oh you’re in sales. What are you a doctor?” For crying out loud in the night. But they look down on people like us. Because “I’m a doctor. I went to 45 years of school.” What’s interesting, there’s technicians in all sorts of different spots right. I actually feel bad, I shouldn’t say this out loud, but at the airport here I saw one of my friends who is an amazing doctor and him and his wife were leaving on a trip and we were talking and he said, “This is the first trip my wife and I have been on in 25 years, together by ourselves.” I’m like, “What?” and he’s like, ‘Well, we had medical school and then we had kids and then we had to pay off medical school and all these things. Now the kids are gone and now we finally have a chance to leave.” I was like, wow. Our whole lives we’ve heard that medical school, becoming a doctor is the…..anyway that’s a rant for another day. But I was like, there’s technicians. And what’s interesting about technicians, they don’t have any risk. So there’s no risk whatsoever, but they do have, there’s a price ceiling on every single person that’s a technician, right. And depending on what job you have your price ceiling is different. So doctors, the price ceiling is, I have no idea what doctor’s make, $500 grand a year is like the price ceiling, that’s amazing but they can’t go above that. And different tasks, different roles, different position all have different price ceilings. But there’s like, this role as a technician makes this much, and this one makes this much and you’re all kind of these things. I said the problem with you right now, you have these amazing skill sets, but you are stuck as a technician in a role where they’re capping you out, where the only thing you can make is $25k a year. Remember I asked you, “What have you been doing?” and you’re like, “Oh, I’ve been networking, I’ve been learning, I’ve been getting my skills up, getting amazing.” I’m like, “That’s amazing, you’re skills are awesome, but your ceiling is $25k a year. No matter how good you get you are stuck because you’re in a technician role right now.” I said, “you’ve got a couple of options. One is go become an entrepreneur, which is scary because you’ve got four kids at home and you don’t have money anyway.” I am so eternally grateful that when I started this game, my wife, first off, we didn’t have kids yet, my wife was working, we didn’t have any money but I didn’t have to have any money at that time, and I’m so grateful I was able to sometimes, I was able to risk things that nowadays is hard. For you to come jump out on your own initially and just be like, “Boom, I’m an entrepreneur and I’m selling this stuff.” That’s scary right, because you’ve got all this risk. So I was like, that’s the thing, but it’s going to be really, really hard. I said, “there’s good news, there’s one more spot in this ecosystem. And the cool thing about that spot it’s that it’s just like the entrepreneur, there’s no ceiling, now the third spot over here is what we call the rainmakers. The rainmakers are the people who come into a business and they know how to make it rain. This is the people who know how to bring people into a company. Leads, they bring leads in. They know all this traffic stuff they’re talking about. These are the people who know how to sell to leads and actually get money out of peoples wallets and put it into the hands of the entrepreneurs. These people right here, the rainmakers don’t  have ceilings. In fact, companies who give the rainmaker the ceiling are the stupidest people in the world, because the rainmaker will hit the ceiling and then they’ll stop. If you’re smart and you have a company, and you have rainmakers, people driving traffic, people doing sales, if you have a ceiling they will hit and they will stop. If you get rid of the ceiling and then all the sudden they have as much as they want, they have less risk than the entrepreneur, but they have the ability to make unlimited amount of money. I said, “Your skill set over here as a technician is worth 25k a year, but if you take your skill set and shift it over here and say, “I come into a company and I’m a rainmaker. I create videos, I create stories, they’ll sell more products, more things.” Suddenly you’re not worth 25,000, now you’re worth $100,000, you’re worth $500,000. You’re worth whatever you’re able to do, because there’s no ceiling anymore. And that was the point of the podcast. I got done sending it, then I sent it to him and I sent it to my brother to edit it. And I have no idea what you thought about it at that point, because we didn’t talk for a while after that. But I’m curious where you went from there. Nic: So the first thing, you know, being told I was really only worth $25,000 in the eyes of the people who were hiring me, that was a punch in the gut. That sucked to hear. Thanks man. It was just like, I literally was working 12, 14, 16 hour days, lifting heavy stuff, I did a lot with lighting and camera work, not necessarily the story writing stuff, but you know, for him to put it so perfectly, that I was a technician. I thought going in, when I failed as an advisor and I started my own company, or started doing videos for people, and being so scared to charge somebody $250 for a video, being like, “they’re going to say no.” That kind of thing, and now I wouldn’t blink my eyes for that. But you know, it’s one of those things for him to tell it to me that way, just straight forward being like, “You are, you’re learning great skills and you’re meeting amazing people.” I worked with Oscar winners and Emmy winners and stuff in the movies and shows that I worked on, but again, I was only worth that much, they had a finite amount of money, and I was a small part of it, so I got a small piece. So listening to all of that, and then hearing the entrepreneur, the risk and stuff. I’m really tall, I’m 6’9” if you didn’t know. I’m a sink or swim guy, but because I’m tall I can reach the bottom of the pool a lot easier. When I jumped in, we had lost, as a financial advisor we had lost our home and we lost all these things. So I was like, I have nothing left to lose. Worst case scenario, and I had never heard that mindset before. We were renting a basement from a family members, our cars were paid off. Worst case scenario is we stayed there and get food stamps and that kind of thing. There was nowhere to go but up from there. So for me, I was just so excited. I’m like, I want to be a rainmaker, I want to be an entrepreneur, but I didn’t know where to find the people that I could do that for. So I was in this thing where I was still getting lots of calls to work as a technician, but I didn’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t want to put myself, my body, my family through me being gone and then when I’m home I’m just a bump on a log because I’m so wiped out, all that kind of stuff. So that was my biggest first thing, the action point for me. I started thinking, okay how do I transition out of this? How do I get myself out and start meeting the right people, the right kinds of clients who do have budgets and things like that, and how do I make it rain for them. That’s when I made that shift from working as a technician. I told myself I’m not going to do it anymore. The last time I technically worked as a technician was about 9 months ago. It was for a friend. So I made that shift and it was just amazing. Like Russell was talking about earlier, when you start to track it or when it’s part of your mindset, things start to show up and happen. You meet the right people and stuff. So those things just started, just by listening to that one hour long thing, I started changing and then the black box I got, Expert Secrets and Dotcom Secrets and started going through that as well. And it was just like, you see in the Funnel Hacker TV, that moment where the guy goes, “RAAAAA” that’s what happened with me. It was like a whole new world, Aladdin was singing. He was Aladdin and I was Jasmine, with a beard. Russell: I can show you the world. Nic: Exactly. But that’s what really, literally happened with me. Russell: That’s cool. Alright this is like summertime, he’s going through this process now, figuring things, changing things, shifting things, he’s changing his mindset. We go through the summer, we go through Christmas and then last year’s Funnel Hacking Live, were we in February or March last year? March, and so before Funnel Hacking Live we kind of just touched base every once in a while, seeing how things are going. He’s like, “Things are going good. I’m figuring things out.”  And then Funnel Hacking Live was coming, and I remember because we’re sitting there, and I think he messaged me or something, “Funnel Hacking looks awesome I wish I could make it.” I was like, “Why don’t you come?” And you’re like, “I just can’t make it yet.” I was like, “How about this man, I guarantee you if you show up it’ll change your life forever. I’m not going to pay for your flights or your hotel, but if you can figure out how to get there, I’ll give you a free ticket.” And that’s I said, “if you can come let Melanie know, and that’s it.” And I didn’t really know much, because you guys know in the middle of Funnel Hacking Live my life is chaos trying to figure out and how to juggle and all that stuff. So the next thing I know at Funnel Hacking Live, we’re sitting there and during the session I’m looking out and I see Nic standing there in the audience. And I was like, ‘I have no idea how he got there, but he’s there. Freaking good for him.” And I have no idea, how did you get there? That wasn’t probably an easy process for you was it? Nic: No. Credit cards. It was one of those things, I looked at flights. As soon as we had that conversation, it was funny because I was, I can’t remember what was going on, but it was a day or two before I responded back to his invitation. And I was like, I’d be stupid to say no. I have no idea how I’m going to get there. I think I even said, “I’ll hitch hike if I have to, to get there.” Can you imagine this giant sasquatch on route 66 trying to get to Florida. But I told my wife about it, and this is where Russell might have this in common. My wife is incredible and super supportive and she let me go. And we didn’t have the money in the bank so I said, “I’m going to put this on the credit card, and as soon as I get back I’m going to go to work and I’ll pay it off. I’ll get a couple clients and it will be fine.” So I booked the hotel, luckily I was able to get somebody who wasn’t able to go at the last minute and I got their hotel room, and I got the lfight and I came in and I was in the tornado warnings, like circling the airport for 5 hours, like the rest of you were. So I got there and I just remember I was just so excited. Walking in the room the very first day, the doors open and you all know what it’s like. I don’t have to relive this story. I remember I walked in and the hair on my arms, it was just like {whistling}. It was incredible, just the energy and the feeling. And I was like, t his is so cool. And then the very first speech, I was like that was worth every penny to get here. If I left right now it would have all been worth it. And you all know because you’re sitting here, you’ve felt that too. So that was my, getting there was like, “Honey, I know we don’t have the money, we have space on the credit card, and when I get home I swear I will work hard and it will be okay.” And she’s like, “Okay, go.” So I did. Russell: So now I want to talk about, not day one, or day two, but on day three at Funnel Hacking Live. How many of you guys remember what happened on day three? Russell sneak attacked all you guys. I was like, if I start going “Secret one, Secret two, Secret three” you guys will be like, “Here it is.” Sitting back. I was like, how do I do the Perfect webinar without people knowing it’s the perfect webinar? And I’m figuring this whole thing out, trying to figure that out. And we built a nice presentation, create an amazing offer for this program you guys are all in. And as you know, all you guys got excited and ran to the back to sign up and now you’re here. But you told me this personally, I hope you’re willing to share. But I thought it was amazing because you didn’t sign up that night. And I would love to hear what happened from then to the next day, and kind of go through that process. Nic: So this is my first Clickfunnels, I was all new to this whole thing. I was so excited when the 12 month millionaire presentation came up and I was like, “This is awesome.” Then I see it in the stack and I’m like, “I’m seeing the wizard,  I can see the wizard doing his thing.” And I was just so excited, and then the price. And it was a punch in a gut to me, because I was so, listening to it I was like, ‘This is what I need. This is what I want, this is what I need. It’s going to be amazing.” And then the price came and seriously, the rest of the night I was just like…. The rest of the presentation and everything after that I was just kind of zoned out. I just didn’t know what to do. Because I knew I needed it so badly and I’m like, that’s almost twice what we’re paying in rent right now. You know, it was just like, how am I going to justify this when I’m on food stamps and Medicaid and all this kind of stuff. You know, “yes, I’m on that but I dropped this money on a coaching program.” Russell: “From this internet coach.” Nic: Right. And so I’m having this mental battle and get back home to my room that night and I didn’t go hang out with people. I just was not feeling it. And I remember texting my wife on the walk back to the room. And I took the long way around the pond, just slowly depressedly meandering back to my room. And I’m texting her and I’m telling her how amazing it was and what the program would do and all that kind of stuff, and she’s like, “That sounds great.” And I’m purposely not saying how much it’s going to cost, just to get her excited about it, so I can maybe do a stack with her right. “For this and this….” See if I could try it. I didn’t, I failed when it came to doing that. I told her the price and she’s like, “That’s a lot of money. How are you going to pay for it.” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” And I’m like, “The only thing I can do, because I have to sign up while I’m here, and pay for it while I’m here. I can put it on the credit card and then we will figure it out.” So we talked a lot and I talked to my dad and it was the same thing. He was like, “Man, that’s a lot.” Just the scarcity mindset that a lot of us have with our family members and support system who aren’t, don’t think, who aren’t the crazy ones. So I went to bed and I got emotional, and I slept so so bad. Just didn’t sleep well that whole night. And again, I talked to my wife again the next morning, and I just, we just said, “It would be awesome. But I can’t do it, so I’m just going to work hard and figure something out and then if it ever opens up again, then I’ll be in a position to do it.” So I left my room that morning with that in my mind. I made the mistake of keeping my wallet in my pocket though, because I’m here. I again made the long walk back and kind of gave myself a pep talk like, “Don’t worry about that kind of stuff. Just more value out of it, meet more people.” So that’s when I left my room that morning, that’s where my mind was. Russell: What happened next? Nic: I walked into the room and Kevin Hansen, who I had, it’s funny, he does a lot of editing for Clickfunnels, and he and I had actually met independent of Clickfunnels before. It was one of those things like, “Oh you do, oh my gosh.” and it was like 2 months after we’d met. So I was talking to him, just chitchatting, and I just had right then in my mind, it was like, “Walk over to the table and sign up. If you don’t do it now, you’re never going to do it.” And it was just one of those things, because I’d given myself that speech, that whole five minute walk across the property. So I finished up talking with him and I just said, “I’ll be right back.” And I walked straight over to the table, got out the credit card, wrote it all down, and I’m like, I don’t even know what my limit is, so I hope whenever they run this that it goes through. I don’t know what’s going to happen. So I did and I got that little silver ribbon that we all got. And again, {whistling} chills. Like I was like, holy crap, this is amazing. I put it on my little lanyard thing and I was just like, I couldn’t believe it. The adrenaline and all that stuff of, “I’m doing it. And my wife is going to kill me when I get back home.” So that’s, then I went and got my seat and I was just floating, you know. I was so amped, I could have “Steven Larsened” it and screamed over the noise of everybody else and it would have been very, you would have heard it. So that’s what I did that morning. I was like, ‘Not going to do it, not going to do it, not going to do it.” I walked in, 60 seconds done. You have my money. Russell: So I’m curious, when did you tell your wife? This is like a marriage counseling session, huh? Nic: yeah, do you have a couch I can lay down on? Russell: A big couch. Nic: yeah, really. So I got home and I didn’t tell her, at all. I didn’t. I said, the clock is ticking. I have 30 days until that hits, or 20 days until the credit card statement comes and she’s like, “Wait, why is there an extra $2000 bucks on here?” So I just, I said, I’ve got some time because my wife, she’s 5’3”, she’s dainty, little petite lady, but she’s not scary I guess. But this is the first time I was really scared to tell her something in our marriage. So I just said, I’m just going to hit the road hard and see what I can come up with to cover at least the $1800 and the hotel, for what I racked up at Funnel Hacking Live, and then that will get me another 30 days to figure something out. So I went and I never told her until the credit card statement came and she saw it. She’s like, “What’s this?” But what happened before that, I don’t know, do you have something after that or do you want me to go to the next part? Okay, so me going to work and being like, “I gotta find it.” and it’s funny that night at Funnel Hacking Live, I went on Facebook and I created some half thought through offer where it was like, “Hey if I can get like 5 people locally where I’m at to do a monthly low number where I create a couple of videos for a monthly retainer, that will cover it and I can figure it. But nobody nibbled on it. So I got home and I started just trying to figure stuff out. And I had met another lady who had a company and she uses Clickfunnels for her course. And it was funny, I talked to her before I went to Funnel Hacking Live, and we were talking and she was like, “Do you know Clickfunnels?” And I was like, “That’s so crazy. I do.” Because I’d never met anybody else that had. So I got home and I shot a little video with her, it was a test to do some modules for her course and she loved it and it was great. So we were talking about, she had like 20 videos she wanted to do and we were talking about budget, and I just said, “you know what, for that much, for that many videos and all this kind of stuff, it’s going to be $25,000.” And she didn’t even blink. She’s like, “Perfect, that’s great.” Thank you, you guys. You’re going to make me cry. Thank you.  And that was like maybe two weeks after I got home that that happened. And I left her house and I tried my hardest not to do a jump heel click going down her driveway, out to my car, and I got around the corner and I messaged Russell like, “dude, you’ll never guess. I just closed my first 5 figure deal and this is what it was…” and he was like, “That’s so cool.” You know. But it was the whole plata o plomo thing, I would never have the guts to ask for something like that, I know that I should and that my skills and what I can do are worth that and more, and it’s been proven to me again and again since then, but to ask the first time, that first time you have a big ask and you’re just throwing yourself out there, and if she would have said no…Now what am I going to do? Because I had actually done another pitch where I did like a webinar pitch where I  had a stack and slides and stuff because it was for a Chamber of Commerce, and I wanted to charge them 2500 a month to do like 4 videos a year. And I did the whole thing like, “If you do it, it’s $2500 a month, or if you do it all right now it’s this…” that whole you know, and they passed on it. I was like, ugh. So it was just one of those things where being around y’all, that was my first experience being around entrepreneurs, really. I have friends who have had businesses, but I felt weird for wanting to create my own thing or being selfish because I have four kids. Like why don’t you go get a real job? All those conversations that you hear and have with yourself, especially when things aren’t going great. But it was like okay, I have to get it done or I have to drop out. And I just, even in that short amount of time I received so much value from the people I was beginning to meet, and then as the content started coming out I was like, “There’s no way I could live without this after having a taste of it.” So that was my, I had to get it done and it worked out. Russell: Amazing, I love that story. So coo. Alright, so since then, how many of you guys have watched his….are you daily or almost daily Facebook Lives? Nic: Pretty much, almost daily. I’ll miss some… Russell: How many of you guys have watched his daily Facebook lives, he’s doing what we’re saying right. He’s doing it. He’s doing it. I see it, I see it coming in my feed. It pops in my feed over and over. He’s doing what we’re talking about. He’s attracting people, he’s telling stories. All the stuff we’re talking about, he’s been doing it. But part of it, he had to have that emotion, that plata o plomo moment and then he hit it and it’s just like, he’s been running and running and running and running. And it’s been so insanely fun to watch the progress and the growth. Some of you guys know he put out an event that’s coming up this weekend and sold out in 5 seconds. He’s like, “I sold out, should I make it bigger?” and I’m like, “No people should have responded to you faster, it’s their fault. Sell it out because next time it will be easier to sell it out again and easier to sell out again.” But he did it by giving tons of value. Telling stories, telling stories, telling stories, providing more value to you guys, to other entrepreneurs, other people in the community and people are noticing. All the stuff we talked about today, he’s doing it. Consistently, consistently, consistently doing it. That was so cool. I don’t even know where to go from here. Alright I know where to go from here. Before I move into this, was it scary? Nic: All of it scary? Well, this is what, back to my competitive days, I don’t care who, I’d played against the best players in the country at high levels. And I didn’t care if you were going to the NBA, being recruited by Duke, once we got into the lines I didn’t care who you were, I was going to make you look silly. I would hold, you wouldn’t score a point on me, or I would just like out work you and if you wanted to get anywhere I was in your face the whole time. And so this was a whole different game for me. I remember Myron talking about in his speech at Funnel Hacking Live, you have to stay in the game long enough to learn the game, and I was new to this game. Like brand new, less than 12 months when I went to Funnel Hacking Live. And it was terrifying because, not necessarily because I didn’t think I could do it, I was just worried when, how long it would take. Like am I going to go and just spin my wheels and it’s going to be 15 years, 2099 and I’m wheeling up across to get my reward from him in his wheelchair, just like, “Hey buddy.” You know, that kind of thing. I just didn’t know how to make it happen quick. That kind of stuff. So I was definitely scared, not necessarily of failing, because I had failed before, I was just scared how long it was going to take. Russell: one of the best moments for me was this summer, him and his family were driving home from, I can’t remember where, they were driving through Boise, and he’s like, “Can we swing by and say hi? My kids want to meet you, my wife wants to meet you.” That’s always scary when you haven’t met someone’s wife or kids and you’re like, what if they hate me. And I remember I started thinking, oh my gosh. He spent all his money coming out here, and then he bought the thing, she might legitimately want to kill me. I have no idea. I was a little bit nervous. And I came and met them and the kids, it was super cool. I remember the coolest thing, your wife just looked at me and she said, “Thank you.” And I was like, how cool is that? Just the coolest thing. Thank you for convincing, persuading, whatever the things are to do this thing. I think sometimes as entrepreneurs we feel the guilt or the nervousness of, “Should I sell somebody something? Is it right, is it wrong?” You have to understand when you’re doing it, it’s not a selfish thing for you. It’s like, how do I get this person to take the action they need to do. Because most people won’t do it until they make an investment. It’s just human nature. They’ll keep dinking around and dinking around, whatever it is until they have a commitment, until they make that covenant, like Myron talked about earlier, people don’t change. So in any aspect of life, you want someone to make a change, there’s got to be something that causes enough pain to cause the change, which is why we have the program. We could have priced the program really, really cheap but I was like, “No we won’t.” We legitimately wanted to make a plata o plomo moment for everybody. You’ll notice, when the program signup, not everybody who signed up is here today. Some people fell away, some of them left, things happen and I totally understand, but I wanted to make it painful enough that we get people to move. And there are people in this room, I’ve joked about, Nic probably shouldn’t have bought that. If he would have asked I would’ve been like, “No dude, don’t. What are you thinking? Why would you do that?” as a friend this is weird, but I’m so grateful. Are you grateful you did? Nic: Absolutely. Russell: Where’s Marie Larsen, is she still in here? I talked about this in the podcast. She was in the same situation, she should not have signed up for it, it’s insane. I saw this text she sent Steven, she’s like, how much did you have in your bank account when you signed up for it? $70 in the bank account, $1800 a month bill she signed up for. And then it started happening and she was freaking out how it’s going, if you guys haven’t listened to the podcast, Lean In, yet I told the whole story. But it got nervous month one, then month two happened and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I need to leave. I can’t afford this.” And she’s talking with Steven and Steven’s like, “Well, you could leave and walk away, or you could lean in.” so she decided, “Okay, I’m going to lean in.” So she leaned in, and I’ve watched as her business over the last 3, 4, 5, 6 months is growing and it’s growing and it’s growing because she leaned in. Tough times will come, every single time it comes, but those who lean in are the ones who make it through that, and who grow and who build huge businesses.

Welcome to the final segment of this special interview! In this episode you get to hear Russell answer all these interesting questions: Who do you look up to? What is Tony Robbins like? How do you “deal” when things get heavy? What do you sacrifice for success? Is there closure as an entrepreneur? What do you want to be known or remembered for? Russell and Josh chat about all this and much more in the exciting conclusion to this “Atlas Shrugged” interview series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson, and I want to welcome you, first off, to the Marketing Secrets podcast; and, second off, to the last part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. The exciting conclusion. At this time, we'd been going for three-plus hours. I was really, really tired. If I sound like I am kind of out of it, it's because I was probably a little bit out of it. We started the interview at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, so this is probably midnight or so. The night before, I had slept three hours. Or, two nights before, it was three-and-a-half... Three hours and 12 minutes. I remember. I wear an aura ring, so I track my sleep cycle. So, the night before, I slept three hours and 12 minutes. The night before this was, like, five hours. So I was tired. I was worn out. But I still had a lot of fun with it. I think Josh is a great interviewer. And I think that we had a lot of fun talking about all this stuff. So, with that said, you guys, hope you enjoyed this interview series. And, when we come back from the theme song, you have a chance to jump right into the exciting conclusion. Part five of the Atlas Shrugged interview. Josh Forti: So, one of the things you talk about in... Well, actually, expert secrets. But I think they mention it... She kind of mentions it in this book, too... is creating belief by looking up to somebody. And, if you can't see it, if nobody else has done it, then it's hard for people to kind of imagine it and ingrain it. Like, for me, I look up at... I'm like, "Who do I want to be like? What business do I want?" I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like you and your books, I want to be like that type of bit here. And then Katie Richards is another one. Being a powerful person, just in general. Okay, like, these are the people that I look up to, and I'm like, "Okay. That's what I'm going towards." So, for you, who are those people? Like, in your life. That you look up to, and you're like, "Okay, that's it." Because I feel like, the higher you get... And, I mean, you're not all the way up the ladder, right? There's still plenty more. But you're way above where the average person is going to get to. The average person has a lot of people they can look up to. You, there's a lot less options, I feel like. Who are those people that you look up to and go, "Okay, that's who I'm trying to be more like," or, "That's where I learned my lessons from." Russell Brunson: Yeah. There's different parts of my life for different people, too. You know? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I look at the business side, I know the companies I aspire to be like. Salesforce, Shopify, HubSpot. Those are companies that are just like the next tier, but from where we are. That they've crossed the chasm, where we're still trying to figure out how to... That next tier. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think watching them has been... That's when we said we'd go to DreamForce two years in a row, just because I wanted to... And I talked about it, actually, on my podcast. Because when I was out there, it was like... And you need to see it to understand it. Because I remember, when I was wrestling, my dad, my freshman year, took us to the... I had just started wrestling. He took us to the state tournament. I saw this guy on my team win state. And I was like, "That's what I want." Exactly what it was. That'd be my goal. And you see it to do it. So I think for me, those are kind of the businesses that I look up to. People, I mean, Tony... From an influence... Like, people speaking, Tony still, to me, is like... Who's bigger than him, right? Josh: Right, right. Russell: Or better. And the fact I've had a chance to build a friendship with him is really cool, because it's been interesting to see him not on stage. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has a chance to see him on stage, and he's the best in the world on there. But then you see him offstage, and see who he really is. And it's just cool to see that, I don't know, someone who's been doing this for that long, consistently, who still cares, who's still doing this. He doesn't need money, but he still is doing events almost every day of the year, because he wants that. So I think that- Josh: He can stop. Russell: Yeah. And I get it. I have so much respect for that. So I think that's a big thing. Yeah. Just, different areas of life, there's different people. But- Josh: What's it like- Russell: I've tried harder and harder to get closer and closer to him, because I like seeing... I like understanding them, not just from the outside, but understanding from inside. Because it's just a different perspective that you don't get. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. What is it it like? What is Tony like? Russell: Honestly, he's like a little kid. We went to his house, and... I can't talk with details, but he had a slide in his house, and he went down the slide with us, and it just... It was really cool. And we had a chance to go with him and do the meditation thing. And the way he served us, when we were with him at his house, you can tell it's how he wishes he could serve everybody. You know? And that just is hard. Like, you saw him... He's in this room serving us, and he's crying, and you see this emotion. And you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "he would do this for everyone if he could." But he can't. So that's why you do these big scale things. But it's the best way he can do that. But I think, if he could, he would do that for every single human being he could. It's just really... I don't know. It's cool. There's been a lot of situations, when I've been around him, where he could have not... He could have easily, like, turned it off. You know, but it's sincere. He doesn't turn it off. You know what I mean? And I try to be that way as much as I can. And hopefully you've seen, now with me and my kids? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Russell: I try to. And obviously, there's Russell, who's a more introverted, more reserved, and then there’s Russell who’s gonna be like, "Ahh!" But it's still the same... Hopefully. I want to be growing like that. Like, I'd respect him, because he's... In every situation I've seen him, he's always been sincere. Which is not... I can't say that about most people in our industry, and our world. Josh: Yeah. For sure. Russell: Which is unfortunate, because it's just like, "You are..." I remember one time I was in an event, and I heard this guy speak. He was awesome. And he just breaks down crying in the middle of this event, in the middle of the speech. And I was like, "This guy is great." And he got offstage. And he looks at me, and he's like... He said something like, "I pulled out the fake tears again." And I was like, "What?" I remember just feeling like... Ugh. I just felt so sick. How does someone do that and not... He was all proud of it. Like, "Ha," like, "I got them with my..." I just remember feeling so... Just dirty. And I just didn't like that. I was like, "I don't want to be that way. I want to be..." I don't want people saying, like, "Oh, yeah, Russell's different here than here." I don't want people saying that. Josh: Yeah. Like, one consistent person. The same person on and off stage. Russell: Yeah. Josh: There's certain people that... You just know. You meet them, and they're just genuine all the way through. Right? Russell: Mm-hmm Josh: I'm trying to think... Like Catherine Jones, right? For example. She's awesome, right? We had dinner. I had dinner with her, and... Well, God. I had dinner with her, and some friends... Russell: "What am I allowed to say in the podcast?" Josh: Yeah. No, her and some friends, when I was in Utah last. And I've had her as a client. I've watched her speak on stage, in front of... Live. I've had dinner with her. And it's like, it is the same person. Right? Russell: So cool. Josh: And there are people like that. And they're rare. I really do think- Russell: That's what people say. Like, "You never want to meet your mentors, because they're going to disappoint you." Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because of that. Because it's like, "Oh, you put them on this pedestal, and you see them in real life, and you're like... 'Huh. Well. That's disappointing.'" And then it negates all the stuff... That's my biggest thing, is that I don't want somebody who... I gave them something, to help them, and they see me in real life, and it's like, "Oh." It negates- Josh: Yeah! Russell: All you just gave them. Which it does, right? Josh: It really does. Because it takes away the trust factor. Russell: Yeah. And so it's just like... I don't know. Because I think I was nervous meeting Tony the first time. I was like, "What if..." Josh: Yeah, no kidding. Russell: You know? And you see him multiple times, over and over and over, and you're just like, "Cool." It's just neat to see that. Josh: So, what's interesting is, one of my biggest reservations about Tony before... You, and Funnel Hacking Live, was actually the thing that warmed me up to Tony. Because I didn't really know a whole lot... I'd never experienced Tony like I have at Funnel Hacking Live, or anything like that. It's so crazy. You walk into the room when he's talking, and it's like you feel the energy shift. Russell: Nobody on earth has presence like that. Josh: It is insane. Like, everyone tells you about it, but then you don't really believe it until you experience it. And I remember, actually, it was in Orlando. The first time, when he was down there or whatever. And I remember, he came... He was in the room... I was in the room when he entered. And energy, obviously, just like when anybody walks on stage, was quite ramped up. But then he just went into his normal talking. And I remember leaving the room. And, most people, you walk in and you feel it? And I remember opening that door, and shutting it, and like... My whole body shifted. Out of this high energy state, into the low energy state. And I felt like, if I was in that room, I could literally go forever. Right? It was just this nonstop source of energy. But what was interesting about Tony is, Tony doesn't really talk about God. Which is super interesting. Like, I don't know what faith Tony is. And maybe he's talked about it in something about that. And so, for me, one of the biggest struggles that I had... Because, well, growing up, and when I first the house, and when I first got into the entrepreneurship, I, like, really wrestled with God. Right? Especially, you know, going through the death of my brother was actually, ironically, the thing that brought me back to God. But I really, really wrestled with that. And so, for Tony, it was like, he's got all this energy, and he's connecting to this higher source, and he's talking about all these things, but he never... He never ties it to anything. He never gives credit to... Well, in this story I'm telling myself at the time, he's never giving credit to this higher... thing. Like, where does that all come from? And then, the more I got to know Tony... Not personally, but through his work, and through watching his videos, and seeing him at Funnel Hacking Live... I'm like, "I don't know what it is that he believes." I've never sat down... And if I ever get to interview him, I'm absolutely asking him that question. But, whatever that is, I don't think it's possible to be incongruent. Because it's... I don't know! It's not of Earth, almost. It's like you're tapping into something that isn't... In in order to operate at that level, you can't be selfish. Like, you know what I mean? Do you sense that with him at all? Like- Russell: Yeah. And he is, I think... And I'm sure you've seen it before. You talk political, and your audience is cut in half, right? Josh Forti: Yeah. Russell: I think for him, he's traveling such a world-global thing. I mean, Tony is Christian. But it's tough because half the world he speaks to are not Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: And so he... He draws that line, because he doesn't want to alienate people. Because he's like, "I'm here to serve God, and..." Josh: Right. Russell: “God didn’t send me to serve a certain group, it’s to serve everybody.” I think... That's my guess, as to why he doesn't anchor that in as a hard thing. Because his audience is so massive. But he definitely, if you ask him, he definitely knows where it's coming from. You know what I mean? Because, wherever he talks about it, he's... You know, the first time he told me, he's like... It's funny, because I'd experienced this myself, and didn't have words to put to it. Because I come on stage, I have a plan, everything's there. I start talking, and all of the sudden, like, something comes through me? And he's like, "It never comes out the way that I plan, but it always comes out perfect." And he's like, "As long as I follow that, it always just works out perfect." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I've had so many times where I... Again, I start talking about something, I don't know where I'm going. I'm like, "Why am I talking about this?" And then all of the sudden, it's like, "Oh, wow." And there's somebody... Like, that was the thing that- Josh: Connected it. Russell: Shifted it for them. You know what I mean? And I think the more that you tap into that, the more... Again, it comes back to what I talked about before, like, where you do that... God's giving you this thing, and if you have stewardship over it, and you use it, he'll give it to you more and more. And Tony, now, who's been doing it for 40 years... Josh: It's actually super interesting you say that. So, literally, every Tuesday, I meet with Katie. Right? And we have our one-on-one call, and we talk for an hour. And one of the topics of conversation was, I was like, "Katie..." We were actually talking about getting ready for this interview. I was like, "I don't feel nervous. At all." Right? And I'm like, "And I'm getting so many texts and DMS or whatever, like, 'Oh my gosh, are you nervous? What if you mess up?'” And, so many… So many different things, right? And I'm like, "I don't feel any of that. I feel like this is just like, 'All right, cool. I'm flying out to Russell. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be great. We're gonna go.'" And I'm like, "So, why is everybody else telling me I should be nervous? Right? Like, why is that a thing?" One of the things that she said was like, "Being who you are, being your person, knowing yourself, and, like, doing this..." But one of the things that we talked about was some of the things that you have to accept by faith. And I was really wrestling with this idea of, like, "Am I supposed to be prepared?" Am I? Russell voxed me and was like, "This is the first interview he's ever prepared for." I'm like, "I just read the book. I don't have any notes prepared for him! I'm just gonna show up and talk, right? That's what I do." And she's like, "But that's your superpower. That-" And sometimes you have to just have faith. And she's like, "You prepare 80% of the way, and leave the 20% up to God." And she's like, "And most people are not going to understand that. And, for a lot of people, that's going to freak it out." But she's like, "How many times have you prepared something 100%, you knew every word you were going to say?" And I'm like, "Very little." She's like, "Well, think back to one of the times that you did." I'm like, "Okay," and she's like, "How'd it go? I was like, "Well, terrible! Literally. It was some of my worst presentations. The most prepared I come, the biggest it'll flop." Right? And she's like, "And the least you prepare sometimes, you just walk in confidently and you do your best, turns out amazing." Yeah. Because that's what Tony's talking about, like, "It just comes over you." It's like, if you have faith that, when you show up and become... You are the best version of yourself. You show up the most prepared you can be. And you just fully embrace that, and have faith in the rest? God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, I feel like it just works the rest of it out. You know what I mean? Russell: Understood. Yeah. That's why, before I do anything, I pray before. I prayed before this call. Or, what's it called? Before this interview, before I step on stage every single time. Because a big part of it's like... Without that, what good are your words? You know what I mean? If you're doing it with the Spirit, with God... Whatever you want to call it, you know? For me, it's the Spirit. If you're with the Spirit, then it'll touch people, in a way that you can't just by your words alone. And so I always ask that, and I look for help. And I remember, I think Steven Larson, the first time he was working for me, we did our first event in the room over here. And I remember, before I would do the events myself, he started working for me. And I was in the back here. And I was saying a prayer, and he walked in. He's like, "Oh, sorry!" He's like, "That's cool." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "You pray before you go out there." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not going out there by myself!" Like, you know? I'm not that good. So, I need help, and it shows up when you... pray. Josh: All right, I have two questions that I want to ask you, before we kind of go to rapid-fire, to kind of bring this to a close. I don't know. We could probably go all night, but... Russell: You just want us to keep going all night? Or you want us to go to bed? Josh: How much longer do we go for? Are you guys liking this? Comment down below. Let us know. Give some feedback. Do you like it? Do you not like it? What are your thoughts? We've been going for about three hours. And I figured, at least, it was going to go at least this long. Russell: I guarantee there's going to be some of you guys who are like, "I agree with everything," to be like, "I agree with half," or to be like, "I don't understand what they're saying. I agree with nothing." So- That's okay. There's nothing... Again, our goal was not to motivate, was not to try to convince you guys of anything. That's not my goal. Our goal was to flesh out these ideas, and hopefully you guys come on the journey, and get some cool ideas from it, and see how perceive life. I think what's fascinating is everybody has such a different perspective on life. And so many times, when we hear somebody else's perspective, we get offended. And it's like, "What if you didn't get offended, and just listened to their perspective?" And maybe you don't listen to everything, but you're like, "Oh. I'm going to take that, and that. Those are two things that were really cool for me." Just don't pay attention to the rest of it. Right? Because I'm sure, if you paid attention to everything that we both said, you probably got offended at least 12 times. But if you're just like, "I'm just going to take the gold that's good for me, and then leave everything else on the side," you got a dozen amazing things that you can use, hopefully. So. Josh: All right. And so my next question is, who are you voting for? No, I'm just kidding. Russell: Ugh. Actually, last year, I don't... Four years ago... So, I'm a big Jack Bauer fan, and I bought "Jack Bauer for president" shirts. And then, that whole day, I was Instagramming and Facebooking, "I'm writing in Jack Bauer! I'm writing in Jack Bauer!" And I would have if he was a real human. But, anyway. Josh: That's funny. Who was I just... Oh, Leah, I was talking to her on the way, as we were driving to the airport. We were talking about Joe Rogan. And, because Joe Rogan is... It's so funny, because people... Like, Trump retweeted one of his tweets. And Joe Rogan's a big liberal, right? Like, he even said he was going to vote for Bernie, before Biden became the nominee. And so I feel like a lot of Trump supporters, are like, "Yeah, Joe Rogan's a Trump fan!" Like, Joe Rogan is not a Trump fan. That's not at all what it is. And so we were like, "Well, who do you think he's going to vote for?" And I was like, "If I was a betting man, I would bet that he votes for Kanye. That he wrote him in." Because he does this three-hour interview. And Kanye answers... If you watch the interview... I mean, I know it's three hours of your time, and you'll probably never get to it. But it is a fascinating interview. And he asked... Because he keeps trying to bring Kanye back to like, "If you were president, what would you do?" Because Kanye is like, "I'm going to be president. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," right? Like, "If I don't win this year, I'm going to for sure win in 2024." Kanye, I love your confidence. But anyway, so, Kanye answers these questions completely differently. And so, anyway. I don't want to run with that. But, my real question for you... So, you can go long on these, or we can go rapid-fire questions on them. Either way. Atlas Shrugged. Got the world on his shoulders. You feel that. How do you deal with that responsibility? Because I'm sure there's been times, I know in my own life, with my three to five little people that I'm managing, and some contractors, I'm like, "Oh my gosh! If I have to take one more thing, I'm just going to explode!" Right? Like, if we don't... So how do you, how do you deal with that pressure, and not... One of the things that I've had to learn how to do is, I don't know if anger is the right word, but deal with not taking out my frustration on somebody else. Right? Like, God bless Leah. She knows me super, super well. And like she knows the moods where it's like, "Don't ask him a question." Like, "Avoid it, and let him cool off," because if you say the wrong thing right now, I'm just going to inadvertently take it out on her. And I've had to learn how to balance that and communicate that. How do you deal with all that pressure, and still... You've got 400 people looking up to you. I know you don't talk to them everyday, but that's a lot. Russell: Yeah. That's just employees. And you have the community, and... Josh: Right. Russell: Yeah, it gets heavy. A lot. And I think it's funny, because, as you read the book, you know, Atlas Shrugged and walked away from the thing... Josh: Right. Russell: And I think for me, I don't want to walk away. You know what I mean? I don't think... That's a big thing. And I think, because the first part is, I was thinking about it, that... Because I'm a big believer that this, for me, is a calling. It's a mantle. This is what I've been called to do at this time in my life. And since, as heavy as it gets... Like, man, think about other people in a different time who had to carry a burden they didn't want to lift, right? There's tons of them. So I think about that a lot. I reached out to other people who were producers, who I know have heavy... You can ask Garrett White. Every time I'm stressing out to the max, I text Garrett, and I'm like, "Hey, man. Life's heavy. Just thinking about you." And he always sends back something about, like, "Dude, do you realize how you've changed my..." just things like that, that just... It's just like, "Okay, it's worth it. Thank you." And then, in Voxer, whenever someone voxes me something, it's like, this success story of, like, "Dude, just so you know, blah, blah, blah." And on Voxer, you can star things. So I have a whole starred menu of all the people that have told me how the fact that I'm carrying this has changed their life. So I'll listen to those, and I'll listen to four or five or six of them. And eventually, when I hear those things, it gets lighter. And so that's a big thing, for me, is just that... Dave, one of my... I'm not sure if Dave's still here or not. But Dave's one of my best friends. Josh: Is he still here? Russell: No. Josh: Dave. Russell: One of my favorite humans. Yeah. And now he's... Anyway. You know, he's carrying a lot of pressure, now, too. Dave... I don't know if you knew this... Dave is the CEO now of ClickFunnels. He's taking over a huge part of my responsibility. And he's carrying out- Josh: Oh, he's into the CEO role? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Or, is he? Or he's moving into it? Russell: He is. Officially, now, yeah. Internally. And he's... Josh: Congratulations, Dave. Russell: And, looking back now, something I should have done five years ago. He's so much better than me at... Than I am. But I see him, I see Todd, I see that people on our team who are carrying weight. And having other people that you're doing this with, besides yourself, helps a lot. So I think that's a big part of it, too, is just... I don't know. If it was just me, like that, eventually I think I'd shrug and walk away. But I know that there's a dozen other people all holding that up as well, and that helps a lot as well, because you know you're not in it alone. I always tell Dave, I'm like, "Man, if I was going to war, I would bring you. Just because I want you in the trenches with me. You know what I mean?" And knowing that I'm not in it alone helps a lot. So I think a lot of times, it's those things. When you're where, when you're doing it by yourself, that's when it gets hard. I try to not... And I think our default human thing is to isolate, and take the pressure and pain. And just for me, as an introvert, I'd rather isolate. But I try, specifically when it gets heavy, just to, like, "Okay, I can't isolate, or I'm going to just get crushed." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I reach out, and that helps me a lot to be able to sustain stuff. Josh: Next rapid-fire question, if you will. Success takes sacrifice. So, in managing ClickFunnels, obviously you love it. But what things are you not able to do, or do you wish you were able to do more of, that you are not able to because of the role that you play in ClickFunnels? Russell: Yeah. Stuff like this. I feel bad. There's so many people who ask for podcast interviews and things like that. People that I would love to do it with, but just there's not enough time. I miss... When we were first growing ClickFunnels, and starting it, I just remember coming in in the mornings, and being like, "What should we do today?" And thinking about it, and brainstorming. I miss that part. Now you come in, and it's like, "All right, there's 8,000 things you got to do." And it's like, "Okay," and I miss those parts of it. I don't know, I miss... Not being able to turn it off, but I think... I don't know, it would be nice... I think it's Alex Charfen, I'm thinking about. Like, "You don't want to run off into the white wood." There's times where... And this is dorky. This is the cheesiest thing. Remember watching the last... Endgame? Avengers Endgame. Josh: Oh, yeah. Russell: And, at the end, when Iron Man dies, and... What's her name? Pepper Potts. When she's like, "You can rest now." I remember hearing that, and I was just like... I actually started crying. I was just like, "I feel like I want to rest sometime. I don't know how, or when, or-" I desire that. I don't know how, because there's so much stuff and so many things. And I think, I don't know, I long for that moment. Where it's just like, whatever the... Like at the end of the Bootstrap book. I don't know where or when that happens, but- Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: If there's ever a time where it's just like, "Oh. We did it." Like, it's weird, because in wrestling, there was a thing where you get your hand raised, and then you get to rest. Business, I haven't found that. Like, it's just this constant thing. Where you have victories and stuff, but you never... Again, wrestling is like, you'd cut weight a week, you'd train, you'd practice, and you'd go out there, head-to-head. You wrestle. You get a hand-raise, you go out to eat, and you relax. You sleep that weekend. Monday, you get back to work. I don't feel like, in business, there's ever been that. Like, "Ah." Josh: Do you think it exists? Russell: I don't know. I assume when people sell a business there's some of that, but most people I know that have sold a business... It's harder. Because it's like someone else is taking your thing that your identity is tied to. So that scares me too. And so I don't know. That's something, I don't know if it's like... Is it when I die that I'm like, "Ah." Like Iron Man? I don't know... I don't know. Some day. I desire that. I don't know how to get it, but that's something I'm looking at. How do you get that? How do you get that release you get, where you're just like, "Ah, I did a good job." I think Funnel Hacking Live is probably the closest to that? Josh: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Russell: Right after it ends? But then also, sometimes... Like two years ago, and it's semi-controversial, and I got blown up for, like, three or four days. And I remember I was like, "This sucks!" Like, "I just killed myself, and now I'm defending myself for three days because of some other speaker who said something that I wish they wouldn't have, but they did, and..." And, yeah. Some of the things like that are hard, but, huh. Anyway. Josh: Are we having Funnel Hacking Live this year? Or, next year, I guess? Russell: Some version of it, yeah. We're in a contract battle with Nashville, where we've done it the last two years. I was just to go there again this year. It typically takes us nine months, for Funnel Hacking Live. Obviously, because of everything, we haven't. We're three months out from when it was supposed to be, and there's no way I can fill it in time. Plus, I don't think we were going to come do there. And so we're trying to push that contract for another year, and then doing a hybrid, something in between. So far, we haven't even got the contract, which is... Anyway. So, something will happen. And I'm dying to not announce it yet, because I don't have finality yet. But some version of Funnel Hacking Live- Josh: What? You mean you can't break something right here, live, at- Russell: I've tried my best! To- Josh: 1:00 in the morning, Eastern time? Russell: We'd love to do some kind of hybrid... Something. Essentially, because I spoke at Tony's thing, where he had the big internet… Josh: Yeah. How was that? Russell: It was really cool. And hard. Because, at first, you come out, and you're in this room, and there's faces everywhere, like, "Ah! That's amazing!" But you're speaking at an event. You shift, and you're looking at different people, which is fun. Here, if you look at people, it looks like you're talking like this. So you have to look at the camera. So, you have a million faces everywhere, and you have to look right here? And you can't- Josh: Oh my God! Russell: And everyone's doing weird things, and so it's kind of hard. Because you're like, I have to look here, or else it looks like I'm not connected to you. But there's so much happening that I want to... It was- Josh: Oh. That's crazy. Russell: It was almost... I don't know if "Dizzy" is the right word, but something that we were just like... It was different. It was hard to get used to. But, anyway, he's building a new place that's three times as big. We're just going to have a hybrid, where half is at... half's the stadium. He said something interesting. He's like, "This year is the year of virtual. Next year is the year of hybrid." So I'm trying to figure out our version of that. And I don't know what that is yet. Josh: Hybrid being part live, part... Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Because I never wanted to make Funnel Hacking Live virtual, ever. Because… it’s this thing. But I also want to make it... Yeah, anyway. So, I'm hoping. I'm hoping the next couple weeks have some finality on that contract, so we can start the next... Whatever the process looks like. So it'll be some version of 2021, for sure. Josh: Cool. Russell: Where people who want to travel will be able to travel. Josh: All right. Awesome. Two more questions. Russell: Okay. Josh: One: what is one thing that people don't know about you? What's a Russell Brunson thing that is a pretty defined part of who you are that people don't really know? Russell: I'm public about everything... Josh: Are you, though? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. Have you learned anything by me since you've been here in our... Josh: Yeah, a couple of things. Russell: Really? Josh: Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah. More from your wife, though. Yeah. She's told... Russell: She's telling you all the good stuff. Josh: Also, your kids are fascinating. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. I talked to them for probably 10, 15 minutes. Russell: My kids are the coolest. I think my biggest fear in life is that I am not going to be the dad that they need. You know what I mean? I don't know. He's going to be like... I don't know. Being a parent's way harder than I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be amazing at it. I'm like, "I can influence thousands of people at once," but the person you care about and love the most? And same to my wife. I think those are my biggest fears. I don't want to mess up the family. And it's weird because, again, it's like all my super powers are like my kryptonite in a family. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so I think I struggle with that a lot of times, where it's just like, "Nah, I'm such a good communicator." I think. Communicating messages. And I struggle communicating with people I love the most. So I think that's it, I think. I am scared to death of cats and dogs. I will not touch them. Josh: Really? Russell: Yeah. I won't touch any animal. They're disgusting to me. And I'm allergic to cats, but the way it came about is, when I was in high school, the girl I was dating, she had a cat, and they went out of town. She's like, "You can watch my cat." And I was like, "Okay." So I came in, and the cat's rubbing against me, so I was petting it, because I'm like... I'd never had an animal before, right? And I'm petting it. And my eyes swole shut. For three days. Three days later, they finally opened again, and the white part was all blood-red. And I don't trust animals since then. You can watch me. My in-laws have cats. I walk in the house, and I stand there. I won't sit on the couches, because I'm like... Because I break out an allergies. If like a dog runs up to me, everyone... You'll see I've kind of turned my... Like, "Don't touch me." Anyway, I don't like animals. Unless you can eat them. So there's something people probably don't know about me. Josh: There you go! Who would've guessed, who would've guessed. All right. Last question. Final question. And I asked this to you... I think I have asked this to you before, but now we're here. We're in person. And we're going to talk. I want you to fast-forward to the end of your life, when you are on your deathbed, and I want you to... All your money, and success, and fame, and influence it's all gone. But you've influenced a lot of people. And you get to leave them with a final message that kind of defines... not what you took away from life, but like the message that you feel like you should put on to some... Pass on, for generations to come. What would you want to be defined by? What would you want that message to be, for people to remember you by? Russell: Cool... And I'm hoping... Honestly, my biggest hope. I'm hoping that when we die, we go to our maker. I'm hoping that we get a glimpse of what our life actually did. You know, like the ripple effect? Josh: Fascinating. Russell: You know It's A Wonderful Life? Josh: Yeah. Russell: When he sees what it was like, before and after? I'm hoping all of us get that experience. Because you have no idea what you're actually doing with it. But I'm sure what we're all doing is... Anyway, I'm praying that we get that moment, because that would be... Anyway. I think my message that I- Josh: That would be so cool. Russell: Yeah. Can you imagine that? Josh: Yeah. That'd be wild. Russell: Yeah. Josh: We need to do a podcast just about our faith. That'd be cool. That'll be our next one. Russell: Okay. That'd be fun. Josh: Next one, I'll fly out here for, and we'll just do it, just about- Russell: That'd be fun. Josh: Just about God, and faith. All right. Russell: That'd be fun. But I think for my message, I would leave it as, I think that... Again, just to tie back to what we talked about initially, I think a lot of us start these businesses, or start whatever we're trying to do, whatever we're called to do, you start initially out of greed, right? It's natural, man. We have these desires that make us want to do stuff, right? And I think for me, when I first got started in this business, I just thought it was to make money, and all these kind of things. And I saw, even when it started having an impact, I mean, "This is cool, this is cool." But it wasn't until... I had a coach a few years ago. She's amazing. And I remember she asked me about what I think God thinks about my business. I'm like, "Why would He care about this?" He cares about how I'm living my life, and I'm keeping to the Commandments and stuff, but why would He care about this?" She's like, "Don't you see it?" And I'm like, "See what?" She's like, "You don't see what He's... Who you've become? His hand in your life?" And it never had crossed my mind. And she started helping me understand, like, "This thing that you're doing is not just to make money. This is a calling. This is literal... This is a calling. You were called of God to do this thing, and the ripple effect, and people's lives you're changing... Even though you're helping people to start businesses, build funnels, it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. Because it frees people, and then they can change people's lives. And the ripple effect is huge." And she helped me understand that day, in such a profound way, that just these things that we're doing, it's a literal calling from God. I think if I was on my deathbed, I would want people to know, like, when you feel that tug, or that nudge, that thing that starts you on this journey, that's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fun. Oh, I'll make some money," or whatever. It's literally God giving you something. This is your stewardship. Do something with it. See what it is. I think, if you realize that... Since I've realized that, it's been different. Now that I know that, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to run as hard as I can. Because this is not just an idea I had. This is a gift." And it's like these tests, like, "What am I going to do with this?" And then when you look at it from that lens, it's like, man, you can do and create... You have more faith in yourself, because it's not yourself, right? I get scared every time I get on stage. I got nervous before this. Like I get... "You're probably confident, because you're on the stage in front of 35,000 people." No! I freak out in front of, like, 20 people! I get so nervous. But I'm like, "I know that I can do it, because this is a calling that was given. And He's not going to give me something that I can't do." And so I think that, if I could help people understand that... I don't know the right way to articulate it, but I think if everybody understood that, how real that actually is, it'd make you run harder, make you work harder, and make you braver, and make you have more courage, more... All the things you need to get that message out. Because you were called. It is a literal calling. And you're probably not worthy of it yet? Like, when you get it, you're not worthy. Like they say, "He qualifies, so he calls," right? You're not qualified right now, but the act of you moving forward is what qualifies you, and what prepares you for the calling. And I think that, if people understood that, man, people would focus so much less on themselves and on their situation and just, like, "All right. Here's the baton. Run." Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You're now gonna start running. And you would do it with perfect faith, because you know it's from somebody beside yourself. And I think if people understood that and believed, it would change everything. Josh: Russell. Thank you so much, man. Russell: Yeah, man. Josh: This was so much fun. Russell: It is fun. Josh: I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. Russell: How long do we have to do... Where are we at? Josh: We're at three hours and 18 minutes. Russell: Dang. And we're still here? Josh: Three hours 20 minutes. Yeah. Russell: Dang, a lot of people still here. Josh: Yeah. I've got... Yeah. Quite a bit. Russell: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming all the way out here for this. It was cool. Josh: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And- Russell: Oh, and we have the comments now. Josh: What do you guys think of the interview? Yes? Good, bad? Thumbs up? Rate it! On a scale from 1 to 10. On a scale from 1 to 10, give us a rating. 1 to 10. Russell: "I used to think Russell was cool, but now I think he's crazy," or, "I used to think Russell was crazy, now I think he's cool." I'm good with all those things. I'm just curious. Josh: Russell, God bless you. God bless your wisdom and mission. Look at this. Thank you so much. This is amazing. Russell: Smileys are here. What's up, Smileys? Josh: Let's go, let's go. What's up, James Smiley? Great stuff. Awesome. I love it, I love it. I could do... A 1000. We got a 1000 out of 10. Russell: Dang! Josh: That's pretty darn good. Russell: It is really good. Josh: 12? 12 out of 10. Russell: Oh, so fun. Josh: Brent? what's up, man? All right, we're going to have to do this again. Sometime when we can sit down and talk about God. That one, we're really gonna have to get prepped for it. Oh, do you know Nick Robbins? Russell: Not off the top of my head. Josh: All right. He's kind of in the ClickFunnels world? He ran an agency, sold it, but still remained a partner, and then got bored, and then came back into it? Anyway. So he and I had, I think, a three-and-a-half-hour conversation about God. So, it's interesting, because he and I actually have a lot of similar beliefs, but he doesn't believe in God. So he's like, "Yeah, I think there's something out there, and it's something intelligent," or whatever. And so we had a... He uses language. And I don't, typically. And so we had all this big, long, huge debate. So, and we've gone there and said that. Russell: That's fun. Josh: Yeah. So. Russell: I think one of the most fascinating conversations I ever had was with Howard Berg, the world's fastest reader? That guy's, like, 30,000... Josh: Yeah. Oh, that's right! He came here, didn't he? Russell: Yeah. A couple of times, since we've hung out. He's read 30,000 books. I was like, "I can ask this guy any question I want." And so I asked him. I was like, "What's your opinion on God?" And I remember he told me, he said... Because, again, religion usually causes fights. Because, like, "Well, I believe-" you know, and it's so cool, because he's like, "Well, most people read one book, and then they base their belief in God on this one book." He's like, "I've read..." I can't remember what it was... "Like, 1,200 books on God, from every perspective." And he's like, "Based on that, this is what I believe." It was just so cool to see that, I think. And I feel like all of us, instead of us being like, "This is my way, this is my way." It's like, just hear... Even if you completely... I completely disagree with so many people's opinion, but I still hear it. Because, again, why do they believe that? There's something. There's a reason why they believe that. I want to understand that. And, anyway. And it's just so interesting. Josh: That's my big thing. My big thing is like... And that's one of the hardest things, for mem is figuring out... My beliefs are always changing. That's probably reason I started the podcast. I just wanted to talk to people. Right? Like, if I'm wrong... I'm so excited whenever someone comes in and is like, "You're wrong, and here's why!" And I'm like- Russell: "Sweet!" Josh: "Oh my gosh! Thank you so much! I know what I'm onto next! Yes!" Right? Where everybody else is like, "I don't want to be wrong. What are they-" I'm like, "If somebody comes in and proves my idea wrong..." Like, my ideas are pretty thought-through. And I'm a really thought-through person. I know why I believe what I believe, not just what I believe. Right? So if somebody can come along and challenge that? That's one of the things that is so attractive to me about Leah. Leah was smart. She challenged even beliefs that she maybe even agreed with. She'd play the devil's advocate, and change, and challenge it. And I'm like, "that's what I like. I want to grow and expand like that." So, anyway. Russell: Yeah. That's awesome. Josh: We'll have to come back and do that, so. All right. Russell. Thank you so much, man. Super, super appreciate it. Guys, as always. Hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. And who knows? You might just end up in a chair next to Russell Brunson. So, that'd be awesome. Guys, as always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. Those of us that think different are going to change the world. By using funnels! And other stuff. Russell: Yeah! Josh: I love you all. And I will see you on the next live stream episode. Take it easy, man. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: Peace!

Welcome back to the 4th part of this interview series. We are getting near the end and the topics keep getting more interesting. In this episode you hear them talk about the influence their parents had on their lives in business. If they feel misunderstood as entrepreneurs and how their ability to communicate might be able to change that. Russell explains how he realizes that Clickfunnels is a team effort and that’s what help him stay so grounded. Then they discuss what each liked most about the Atlas Shrugged book and what character they each associate with most. So tune into part 4 of this exciting interview! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. All right. I hope you guys have enjoyed the first three. We are moving into the fourth episode of our interview. My interview with Josh Forti talking about Atlas Shrugged. Again, during this series, we've been talking about religion and politics and all the things you're not supposed to talk about, but we've done it all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, which I hope you've enjoyed and had a lot of fun with it. Hopefully it's made you want to go and actually read the Atlas Shrugged book, which I think would be really, really cool. With that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song. When we come back, you have a chance to start listening to part four of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: So, what did your parents do right for you? One of the things that I try to say, I try to say it a lot but I don't even say it enough. My parents have played a absolutely tremendous... I owe so much of who I am today to my parents indirectly in a lot of ways. My parents didn't teach me about money or things like that. That wasn't their gift, but the principles of hard work and family values, biting your tongue, even though it doesn't seem like I bite my tongue. Oh my gosh. Every day, right? Russell Brunson: It could be worse guys. Josh: Right. It could be way worse. Some people would love that, but you know, deescalating situations and having those... I owe so much of who I am to those. Yeah, they messed up in a lot of ways like you said, but what were some of the things that your parents did right? What are the things that you remember from your parents? Russell: Yeah. I love my parents. I was very blessed with my parents, for sure. I don't think my dad was super engaged when we were younger just because he was in the phase where, like trying to figure things out and make money. It was different back then. Josh: Is he an entrepreneur? Russell: Yeah. He also had a job, but he did side business so he was always trying to figure things out. I saw him doing these things. I saw the job he didn't love and then I saw him doing stuff he did love and I watched him work really hard. Then when I started wrestling, I saw my dad... That became the thing that me and him connected with which meant the world to me and it was so important to him. What's cool was that my dad showed up to every wrestling practice. He came to every single match. His day job was State Farm insurance, he built up his book of business where by the time I was wrestling, he was able to take off as much as he wanted. It ran itself and he was making money and had residual income. I remember my dad was the only one, as soon as wrestling practice got done, my dad would walk in and we would do practice afterwards. Never missed a match. He was always there. I remember just thinking, I want to make sure I have a business or something like my dad was for me. That was so important to me. Like I said, he wasn't super around when we were younger and I think he struggled because of the younger kids, which I understand. That phase in my life, he was there and my best friend and it was just, it was awesome. I love that and I've been trying to have my kids now. Especially at times where maybe I wasn't as good of a dad, I was too busy. I'm trying to connect more. That was my dad for sure. Then my mom, for me she was just... I wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser but I'm very much an achiever. I think when I started wrestling and I saw my dad got closer to me and then I got a win and I saw him get excited, I wanted to win because I wanted to impress my dad. To this day, I think I still have that. Part of the reason I'm in this business and I'm doing stuff is I love when my dad sees it. There's something, I love impressing him. To this day I love that win. With my mom, she loved me even when I didn't win. that was something that was so foreign to me. I remember I'd be cutting away for wrestling, I hadn't eaten for three days. I'd be so tired, so miserable. She'd come down and sneak in my room, bringing me food. I'm like, "Mom, I can't eat. I'm not going to make weight." She's like, "Why don't you just quit then? You don't need to do this." She was the opposite of my dad. She loved me no matter what and didn't care that I was trying to win or succeed. Couldn't care less. She loved me just because I was me. That was weird but so cool as well. It's both those principles, it's something I've tried to weave in. I've got two different sides I'm trying to weave that into my kids. Again, so far from perfect, but I think those are the two things that meant the world to me, that I'm super grateful for them those things for me because I still remember those things now. Josh: So there is... Which by the way, that's awesome. There's a lot of people in this world that are growing up without a dad, without a mom. It's interesting because I think a lot of my social media posts, I kind of come across sometimes like the heartless a-hole, you know what I mean? A little bit, they're like, "Josh!" You know what I mean? You talk about, take personal responsibility for your life, everybody can do anything. If you're broke it's your fault, that's one of my favorite sayings. If you're broke in America it's your fault, right? They're like, "Josh, you don't understand. You grew up and your parents are still married. Not only do you have parents, they're still together and they still actually love each other." It's not even necessarily they're still together. You're like a percentage of the percentage of the percentage in a lot of ways. I don't even know what question I'm asking you, but what would you do? Where could somebody find that? What can we do as a society or just as entrepreneurs, as producers to help those people? I feel like that's a really big need. Russell: For sure. Josh: One of my big struggles with this is I always want to point it back to the church. I had a really awakening, come-to-Jesus moment back when I posted, this is probably a month ago or so. I posted it on Instagram actually. I think you liked it, actually, so I know you saw it. I said, "Defund the media, defund fear, defund career politicians. Fund orphanages, churches and schools." I posted it on Facebook and I posted it on Instagram, and I was shocked at how many people were like, "Dude. Fund the churches? They're a bunch of pedophile people there too." So many people had such this negative view of the church. I grew up in the church, that's what I knew. How I knew how family works is because I saw our own family and then I saw the church family and I saw the community and how the church was involved in the community. The church that I went to, after I moved out Grable, Indiana, I worked three doors down from it and that's where people went to vote was in their gym. And the fair, that's where people parked. The church was such an integral part... that word, a part of the community. So when I saw all these people that had this negative view of the church, that broke my heart because that was my solution. There are so many things. Like, if you don't have a dad, you can go to the church. If you don't have this, you can go to the church. Said, "What?" If that's your answer, that's cool, but how can we as producers of society and the people that are going out there and making the money, how can we help those that don't have what you and I had? Russell: It's interesting. What Mormons believe is the family is the central everything. That's God's plan. Husband and wife starts a family. That's an eternal principle, right? If you look at the adversary, Satan, whatever you want to call him, his job, if he can destroy the family, everything falls apart. That's the war we're in right now. We think we're in a lot of different wars. The war we are in is, Satan is attacking families. That's it. Josh: Okay. I want you to finish this, I have to say this though. Guys, and this is not Russell saying this, this is me. This is why I hate the Black Lives Matter organization. Not movement, the organization so much. Because, their whole principle is bragging about the traditional family values. Anyway, I'm not speaking for Russell. Russell: Yeah, if you Google "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," you'll see my beliefs on family. We have it printed out eight foot on my wall in my house. That's my belief. Family is central, everything. So, Satan, the way he destroys societies and nations and this world is, destroy the family. So when you see families are broken, they're single mothers and single fathers, it's heartbreaking. I think it's the saddest thing in the world. I don't know the right way to solve it. I do know that it's vitally important. I remember first time I met Tony Robbins and started learning from him, one of the principles he talked about in relationships is masculine, feminine energy. The masculine and feminine is key to a relationship. I could go on for four hours just on masculine and feminine. Oh, that's the most fascinating topic in the world. If you ever see how Tony fixes relationships, you look at the traditional view of traditional counseling, there's a problem. They're like, "What's the symptom of the problem?" They try to solve the symptom of the problem and counseling takes years because it's a symptom of the problem. All the issues, they're all symptoms of problems. The real problem is when there's a masculine and a feminine, and it doesn't matter. Again, this is true with gay, straight, doesn't matter. Feminine, masculine energy. You take a masculine and a feminine and that polar opposite, that magnetism, magnetize together, right? That's what creates attraction, passion, everything. What happens is you have a masculine and feminine, they're attracted together. That's how you start. That's how any relationship starts. Right? Then you look at people getting married. It was interesting because what Tony talked about, he said you look at typically in a relationship, there's what they call the seven-year itch, and why is that? He talks about the way the feminine causes change is... Some day I want to write a book on this. I don't know perfectly enough to- Josh: Russell needs to become a writer. My word… Russell: Yeah, I've got a lot of books to write. But, this is how it works in traditional marriage. Masculine and feminine. What happens is one of the ways that feminine causes change is they criticize, right? I see this with my wife, with friends, with girls. If they want their friend to change their hair they don't say, "Hey, you should get a haircut." They'll criticize to try to cause change. Right? What happens is that a feminine- Josh: Yo, wow. That's so true. Interesting stuff. Russell: Yeah. That's just one example of- Josh: Dave! Russell: Feminine… Josh: Right, right. Russell: So, feminine and masculine come together. This is just an example. They'll start criticizing the man, but a masculine man doesn't care, it bounces off him. Like, "Okay. Okay." Right? What happens after seven years of that happening? Eventually instead of it balancing off of you, which is the masculine response, you start taking it personally. Like, "Oh." As soon as you take it personally, guess what happens? You are shifting physically from your masculine into a feminine. You start shifting and what happens is you shift from masculine to feminine and boom, the attraction breaks, and it starts falling apart. And then all the other problems start happening. The problem isn't solving the fact that you leave the toilet seat up or that you don't communicate well. The problem is that the masculine-feminine attraction is broken. If you fix the masculine and feminine, you can make men become men and women become women. Attraction comes back, all the other symptoms disappear. It's fascinating. That's from a marriage, family, relationship standpoint. Josh: Okay. I want to- Russell: I'm telling this because I want to talk about this from the family with kids in a minute, but yes. Josh: Okay. But I want you to now give me another example that Tony Robbins has said, because what you made it sound like there is that the way the woman does something is the thing that's causing the bond. I know that's not what you meant. Russell: Oh, it could be, yeah. That's- Josh: I just wanted to do that clarification. Russell: It's the same thing with the men where the men are responding over and over, where women now become defensive and they become more masculine and it's the other way. Yeah. Sorry. That's not the only example. I was just- Josh: Right. Russell: The one- Josh: I just wanted to make sure we clarify that because I know thing's have been taken out of context before. Russell: Somebody is going to be angry at me. I apologize. I'm stupid. I get it. But conceptually, does that make sense? It's the break of the masculine and feminine that causes the split, which causes the disharmony. And if you bring the masculine and feminine together, I think that's what causes attraction and causes passion and causes all these things. I look at my life when we were struggling in our marriage, it's because I'm showing up feminine. When I show masculine, everything's great. Where my wife comes in masculine and I'm masculine, we butt heads, it's fascinating. Anyway, I don't want to get deep into this because there's so much stuff. There's another show on this, because you look at this thing. You've got a family and the mother and father split and then there's kids who go with either the mother or the father, and now what they have is they've got either a very masculine person they're learning from or feminine, but they don't see both. And so it shifts them and it shifts their relationship. So many problems. I think the way we help the most, or can help the most is... Hormozi does this. Alex Hormozi does this. He donates his money to... Do you remember the name of the charity? He got our first Two Heart award. It's afterschool kids. These kids, like men who... There's these kids trying to play basketball or lift weights or whatever, who don't have masculine energy in their life. They come and they donate their time and they help the kids to brig masculinity. All of us, we need male and female perspectives. Josh: Right. Russell: It's designed to have those things together. When you lose one of them, it's a tragedy. I think the way we can start helping is, how do we bring programs where they can see masculine energy and see the way to make it a positive and not a negative thing? A lot of times, all they know is masculine energy left and oftentimes there's a lot of anger between the people. They hear talking trash about the spouse and talking trash about these traits which are traits that are essential for them to develop. I don't know. I don't know if that's the right answer or not, but I feel like that's how we could help those things. Help them understand, like the kids who don't have a father or a mother. They need that energy in their life to understand it, to be able to... I don't know. Josh: Okay. This is seemingly unrelated to this, but I think that I can tie it back in because it's a question that I think fits in here. I'm going to start with a super-basic question, which I think the answer is obvious, but we'll go down this road. Do you feel misunderstood as an entrepreneur? Russell: I did early on, less so now. Josh: Why is that? Russell: When I was got started... Entrepreneurship has become more of a cool thing in the last decades. Since Shark Tank and stuff. Back when I first started it wasn't. Everyone was confused. Like, "Why would you do that?" It is cooler. Also, I think the more you talk, the more you either alienate people or you attract people, and I think a lot of the people who I have alienated have been alienated and I think they are attracted by attractive. So my bubble of people around me are people who understand this lingo, who relate to it. So it's less hard now than it was initially. Josh: I believe that one of my superpower... Your superpower, your art, your format is marketing and funnels, funnels specifically. That's what you do. I feel you could just sit there for hours and hours and days and forever for the rest of, all of time. Russell: Yes. I love it. Josh: My superpower thing that I like to do is this. Communication. I love constructing words in a way that people can understand. I'm sure not, but the Kanye West interview that Joe Rogan just did three days ago. Russell: I've heard about him… Josh: This has been a long awaited episode. No one thought it was ever going to happen because it was teased and it wasn't, didn't happen. Finally happens. So I see this, I had no idea what's coming. It drops and I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing!" I sit down and I look online and all these people are like, "Terrible interview. Not worth your time. Couldn't get past the first 20 minutes." Anything like that. I'm like, what? So I go and the first 20 minutes are kind of like, eh whatever. I get done with this three-hour interview. It was like, top three interviews of all time. What's interesting is... Do you know Kanye? Like, how Kanye communicates at all?   Russell: No.   Josh: Okay, there's so many references that I want to use that you won't get. Kanye sees the world fundamentally differently and how Joe describes it in there and the way that I described it is... You wouldn't know this, like I said, because it's psychedelic, it's like a drug or whatever. But imagine being on a psychedelic drug in a small format at all times. That's how his mind works. He sees everything, it's like expanded. So even Kanye said, "The reason I have such a hard time communicating sometimes is because I see things in three-dimensional and then I have to put them into a two-dimensional conversation." I'm not trying to compare myself the way I think to the way that Kanye thinks, ubt this concept of people think he's beating around the bush when really he's just trying to explain something. One of the things I love doing is taking a concept that and figuring out how to describe it in a way that the average person can understand. I live in a different world, just like you live in a different world than the average person does. I live in a different world and that is by choice. I do not see the world the way that most people do. I intentionally do not want to see the world the way that other people do. Everything that I do, I will intentionally engineer where my life is different than the average person because I want to see the world differently, but I want to be able to communicate that in a way that they can understand. My question is, do you think that there's a lot of great ideas stuck inside of producer's heads that if more people understood them and thought like that, we could change the world for the better? But because they're stuck in their head and that person doesn't know how to communicate it well, or is not focused on that, that that effect never happens. Russell: Gotcha. Yes. That's why I think for me the study, this art of funnels and copywriting and story does, is so fascinating. That's what it is, right? I always pitch, like when we have an idea, in my head it's like this big granite block, right? It's like, this is the idea and give it to somebody, like, "This is the idea." You're like, "I don't get it." Right? Josh: Right. Russell: Then you start thinking about, who is it? Start chiseling away at the stone. You start chiseling, chiseling, and eventually you have this amazing statue. This thing that people can see and they can understand and they gravitate towards. I feel it's the same thing with communication or with any kind of idea you're trying to sell. The funnel is one thing. Right now, like, "Hey, you should buy my coaching programs." Why? Like, "Ah, it's too big." I need to take them to a path, simplify that. So there's a step-by-step process which is like chiseling away. Then inside each step of the process, there's the words and the stories, the things you communicate to simplify it to get more and more fine tuned. That's why for me, when we create a funnel and we launch it, it's like taking this big granite block and chiseling it down to now something that somebody can come in on the side of it go through a process. By the time they're done at the end, they're going to get some money, they're going to get a product and something's going to change for them. I think that's what marketing is. it's that process of trying to simplify the message. I think a hundred percent, that's why most ideas don't get out. I don't know, how many times have you had... This kind of comes back to talking about, who knows, an hour or two ago too, but four or five people get the same idea, but then one person executes on it. It's like the person who understands the communication the best is the one typically who gets it out, right? How much of your life or my life has been focused on the communication? I don't necessarily like that part as much. It's not my favorite part, but it's such an essential tool. I remember when I got in this game and I was trying to sell my very first product, Zip Brander. I put it up, I had a picture of it, Buy Now button and tried to send traffic, and nobody bought it. Someone's like, "Well, you need a headline," so I'm like, okay. So I put a headline. "Tell us what this does." So I found some sites that kind of modeled what they did and the people started buying it. It was learning that process of, how do you communicate? I remember thinking, I never want to learn how to write copy. That's what we all thought back then. "I don't want to write copy, I don't want to do that. That sounds horrible." I wanted to hire someone, but the people I tried to hire was expensive, it was 10 to $20,000 for a sales letter. I couldn't afford it, so I'm like, I have to learn this art and how to communicate. I'm so grateful because that's how everything we built has been, off the communication of an idea, and doing it in a way that gets people to move. Josh: How do you decide what you're going to communicate? You have a lot of ideas in your head and you have a lot of different thoughts on everything and you choose to share funnels and marketing primarily. Then you have some religion in there, which I would say probably is number two, maybe ish, of what you communicate. But that's it. How do you decide... Russell: The battles I want to choose? Josh: Yeah. Russell: What battles? That's a good question. I think part of what's interesting, like why did I want to do this interview? I read the book, it was fascinating. I don't know the answers and I thought this would be a fun way to talk it out loud. This is fascinating. Funnels are fascinating to me because I can apply it to so many things. You know when I talk a lot about wrestling, but not the community you bump into but for wrestling, I talk about that. I think it's just the ideas that fascinate me that I feel have the most fluidity and can do the most. Again, as an introverted person, I'll typically go out and have conversations with people as much as I can, but when I find something that does cause and effect, that's why I practice telling my story so many times and I'll do a podcast. I know now when I'm on stage in front of 9,000 people, the stories can get people to move because I practice it. So I think it's putting a lot of things out in the water and then seeing what things people relate to, and then I go deeper on the ones that are like, "Okay, this one had an impact." There's a lot of stuff. I remember in first version Dotcom Secrets, there were seven or eight chapters more that never got published. I was going to publish… Josh: Do you have copies of this? Russell: Yeah. It was like, all my best stuff at the time that I knew that I was going to publish it and it was all in the book. I remember I heard an interview with Tim Ferriss and Ryan Holiday... Ryan Holiday at the time and they were both talking... Anyway, they were talking about their books. Both of them said that when they write a typical book... You know, Tim Ferris's books are like this fat… My first draft was like, twice as big. It's like, to make your book go from good to great, it's not adding more. It's cutting. Like, I cut two thirds of my book to give you this one. I think it was Ryan said the same thing. The first draft is usually twice as big as the final one. Then the next section, it's cut, cut, cut, cut. I remember going back to Dotcom Secrets that night and I was like, "Okay, based on that, what would I cut and how would that do?" I cut seven chapters out and after I was done, I was so scared because I love these things, but those things aren't that important to get people what they need to actually be successful. Some of those things ended up being in Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets, and different places, but yeah. I wonder how that first version- Josh: I was going to say, I wonder if she just published the first day or if she had a 2,700 page book and cut something out of it. That's crazy. Okay. Back to the question in the car, and I want to tie this back to the book. How has growing a multi-hundred million dollar, making hundreds of millions of dollars having a roughly billion-dollar company, being the CEO of 400 employees, how has that changed your perspective of the world? Russell: So many things I could respond. I think there was a season of my life where I thought that if I was going to create something, if I was going to do something, the way I was going to do it, by me. Does that makes sense? Josh: Yeah. Russell: In fact, if you look at my history, the first decade of business, the businesses were about me. They were me. I was the sole owner, the sole person. On this journey, when we started, it was so different. It was like, what's the team look like? Todd was my first time I had a partner. That was so scary for me. Then it's been the greatest thing I possibly could have done. Right? Then we brought in other partners and then employees and stuff. I don't know. It's been fascinating just realizing that to build this, it wasn't about me. It was about... I don't know, just that whole thing. I think anything great, a lot of times there's a person that gets credit for it. Like, Elon Musk gets credit because whatever or Bill Gates or whoever the people are, they get the credit for it. You start really seeing how many people are involved to make something amazing. You know what I mean? I think that's the biggest thing for me as I started growing it. It's frustrating. Not frustrating for me. I enjoy it. People are always asking, "Russell invented ClickFunnels." I literally don't know how to code anything. There's not one dot of code in that word. Maybe once I leaned over Todd's shoulder, put a button in that and he had to delete it. I think it's cool that you see how many... Before Funnel Hacking Live, every time we start we bring our whole team together. I'm the one who's on stage, but I am fully aware that it is not me. This is us. If it wasn't for this team and these people, all you guys, all your contribution, this was impossible. I want to always ground that because I think sometimes the leader or whoever gets a big head where they think it's them. I see that with a lot of people who are on big stages where they still drink their own Kool-Aid so they think it's them. That's my shift in the world, just understanding the great things, the things that we remember. The things that are legacies that go on and on and on. There may be a head or a person that the branding tied too, but there's this group of people that created something amazing. That's… know what I mean? Josh: How do you stay grounded? I am a huge fan of Russell because for me, you're the person I look up to as not just, hey, you taught me how to make a lot of money, but I want to have the character that you have. I don't want to have... I look at Grant Cardone. You don't have to talk smack about Grant Cardone, but I can. Grant Cardone is really, really full of himself. Don't get me wrong. I learned a lot from Graham Cardone, especially about money. He's changed my perspective about a lot of things. I'm eternally grateful for that, but if I grew up to be Grant Cardone, where that was the focus.., I mean, I watched him, I was there at the stadium down in Miami or whatever. It was all about him. I think he even got up on stage and was like, "Oh yeah, everybody says Russell is the greatest salesman, but I'm the one that packed the house." I'm like, dude! You know what I'm saying? Why? Why is that necessary? How do you stay grounded? It's so fascinating to me to watch different types of people. I know Tai Lopez for example, for awhile there, it was all about Tai and now he's gone more behind the scenes, but each person that I watch whether it's Tai or Gary or Grant, they all have a different way about them. You have your way about them. The one that I see as the most grounded, humble... There's nobody that's looking at you. You get up on a stage and you're like, "Oh yeah, I'm Russell!" You know what I mean? Russell: Everyone awkwardly, like, "Yay." Josh: Right. Then you walk up and Grant's like... But you, it's just yeah, it's that awkward, "Hey, I'm just over here." How are you grounded in that? How do you not let it get to your head? Because it would be so easy for you to get wrapped up in your own head. Russell: Someone told me it's because of my wife. They said, "If you'd married anybody else, your head would be so big." Josh: I met your wife for the first time today. I mean, we had crossed paths, but I said when you were getting your haircut, "So what's it like being married to Russell?" She goes, "Hes just the sixth child of mine." I was like, oh boy. The big kid. Russell: That's awesome. I think I would say it's two things. We kind of talked about this earlier, but I'll tie back to it. The first one is that I am fully aware that these ideas are not mine. I didn't invent the funnel. I didn't invent any of this stuff. All I know is that I was on a path, in a journey. I was given the thing and the next thing, and I was freaking out and I was putting them together. That's part of it. This stuff's not mine. It's stuff that was given to me and tested and so I'm so grateful for that. It's never me like, "Oh, look what I invented." That's so annoying because it's not. Again, come back to these ideas, these thoughts, these desires and things that were given to us. I think that's the first part. The second part of it is, and I see this a lot in people in my world who, they had some success and then they're like, "This is my person. I made them a bajillion..." I hate that too. Like, you helped them in a piece but they did the work. I'm very careful to always when I'm talking about any of our success stories, I didn't make that person. We had this super-cool opportunity to be a piece to their journey. Right? We helped them give them some ideas and a tool, but they're the ones that killed. I don't know what it takes to build what they're building. I didn't do that. They did that. I'm grateful that they did and I'm even more grateful that I got to be a little piece of that. I got to be part of that journey. I got to see that and just have the impact of, oh my gosh. Because I killed myself and wrote those books and because Todd killed himself and wrote software and I was able to communicate it, they're able to do this thing and it's not all me. I'm fully aware it's not all me. I know what every entrepreneur has to go through to be successful and it's not a mentor who gives you everything. It's just a lot of people who are a piece. I've had mentors who gave me a piece that I'm so grateful for, but then they try to take all the credit, like, "Oh, this is when..." I hate that too. So I think those two sides. Number one is again, I don't think these ideas are something that I came up with. They were given to me and I was a good steward of them because I was able to aggregate and there's the thing. The number two is just my belief that I didn't help anyone. Even when you said, "You and Katie," I felt awkward. I didn't do anything. Josh: Right. Russell: Luckily some of the stuff resonated with you and it was a little piece of your journey. I'm so grateful for that. The fact, to see you do stuff now, it's so much fun for me to watch you. Just knowing, "Man, because he bumped into me, maybe something happened and now he's doing this stuff and this work and it's so cool seeing how you're impacting people." I think those are the reasons why I don’t think my head gets big, because I don't think it's me. I'm grateful that I get to be a piece of it, of the journey, but I'm not the creator of it. Josh: All right. I want to loop back to the book. Russell: Go ahead. Can we just read it? You guys want us to read it to you? Josh: Yeah. What was the thing that fascinated you about it though? When you've asked me, you were like, "Dude, I read it and I'm geeking out about it, I just want to geek out about it." What about it had you so fascinated? What did you want to geek out about it? I have a question that I want to ask later on about it, but what was the thing that just made you geek? Russell: There are a lot of things. I think the biggest thing that I was really excited, we talked about earlier was just… The biggest thing earlier was just this cons-... Again, for those of you who are tuning in late in here, there's the whole, it talks about greed. Right? And that concept of greed versus charity. Again, the book very much is like, greed is good, it's the thing that causes production and you should care about yourself and then good things will happen, it will create jobs and everything else will take care of as long as you're caring most about yourself. Which I thought was kind of cool but then also I had the other side with my beliefs in Christ and Christianity and all these things like that, where it's just like, how does that reconcile with faith, hope, charity and love, and serving everybody else? That's probably the thing that got me the most. I think about that a lot, especially in politics. Again, I'm not deep into politics, I'm not going to talk about who I'm voting for, not voting for, it doesn't matter. But I see that on both sides. I feel like on the Republican side you see a lot of this stuff, like this. Then on the Democrat side, you see a lot of the charity stuff. Again, in my notes I wrote this actually initially, because I wanted to talk about this. I'm a big believer that there's not a right and wrong. There's good in both sides. Josh: There's not a right or wrong side. Russell: Yeah. Things are messed up on both sides. It's how the world works. Satan, there's this eternal struggle between God and Satan and Christ, this is always happening. So there's two sides and there's God-like principles and things on the right that are amazing and then there's Satan that's twisting things and jacking them up. Same thing on both sides. I see everyone fighting tooth and nail and I bet you, if we all sat down, the majority of all issues we'd all agree on. But then it's these fringe things that causes so much hatred and fighting and just drives me crazy. I think that this book is the perfect example of what I believe so much in some of these principles, but there's also the opposite principles that I also believe in and they're both right. If you missed the beginning part of the interview, we talked more about that but the greed, the growth and contribution, that transition is the key that just fascinates me. Josh: Yeah. What parts of the book contradicted the most with your faith? What part of the books did you have the hardest time with because of your faith? Russell: Yeah. The producers in the book, the minds, the people that I connect with, because I self-identify as a producer, someone who's obsessed with production and creating. That’s why I relate with Hank Rearden, Dagny, all these people are cut from my same cloth. It's as they're growing this stuff that they didn't give back, that they didn't... That's the thing. I felt like they weren't rounded out characters and that's the biggest thing for me. The first half of the book, I want to be Hank Rearden. He's fricking the man. Like yes, that's all I want to be. I wanted to see him have that change of heart where he's Christ-like and he gives of his own free will. Not because the government came with the gun and told him he's got to pay taxes. I wanted to see his character develop and realize that, "Oh my gosh, I should be serving people because I love them. Not because of the government's force." That's the piece that I wish. Josh: It never took that turn. The book, you almost expected it and then it didn't happen. Russell: It got worse and worse and worse and then they waited until just everything... People were dying, everything collapses and then the lights in the yurt go out, wooh, and they're like, "Okay, now we can come back and build." Josh: Now we can go back and build, but even when they come back and build, it was built by our new law of basically... Actually, one of the things that's fascinating about that was... Gosh, it was towards the end. Was it Galt? I think it was Galt. Yeah, I think it was during his speech when he was like, "The minds society, we gave all this stuff to you guys basically." Trying to be like God there, but every day, we created all this stuff, we created these jobs, we created these resources. We gave it to you and all we wanted from you guys was for you to let us be in our own head. Let us, our minds be free and not be controlled by anything else. You took all that and not only did you take it all, then you said, "No, you're bad and we're going to take that away too. So we're all going on strike because of that." You relate to that so much and then it's like, yes! Then they explained how they live and it's like, you expect them to have that change of heart rather, but no. It's because we are amazing and because we are the great minds and we must live by this code. It has nothing to do with actually giving back or actually contributing to society. It was like they didn't care about contributing to society. It just happened to happen. Russell: Yeah. Which is cool, which is why again, governments should let producers produce because the byproduct is really good. Josh: Right. Russell: For everybody. So that part is so much I relate to. Part of this is probably because Ayn Rand didn't believe in God. You know what I mean? That wasn't part of her values and so it's tough because she weaved that... I just wish at the end of the book, it would have been like, and then Hank Rearden realized that he could help all these people himself and so he built orphanages and changed all these kids' lives. Like, yes! That would have been amazing. He found about OUR and he went and donated money to save all these children. Josh: Right. Russell: But he did it of his own free will because he had that change of heart. I don't want to die at the end of my days and... I produced some great jobs, but I didn't care about people. I feel like that missed the mark. Josh: Hank Rearden you say is the person you related to really most in the book? Russell: Yeah, I think so. I wanted to be Francisco though, he was pretty sweet. Josh: Who do you think I related to most in the book? Russell: Oh. Who was it? Josh: It was a relatively main one. You were close. Russell: Oh, was it Francisco? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Russell: He was cool. Josh: Right from the beginning he fascinated me. I knew right when, the plot twist of where he ran off and became the playboy or picture, he was obviously a playboy or whatever. I knew right then and there. I don't know what the plot, I don't know what the connection is but I know this is going to come back around and it's not going to be how it seems. The mind doesn't shift and then he stays in the scene or whatever. He fascinated me because, or he strikes me as someone... Hank Rearden didn't care about the crowds. He did not at all. He hated going to the wedding. It was by force that his wife drug him out there that one time. It was always, "I just want to work in my office." I'm actually not like that. I am actually much more the... I do like the crowds, but I don't like the crowds because I need praise. Don't get me wrong, I like being on stage and doing this type of stuff or whatever, but for me, I like the crowds because I love people. It's funny because I actually don't get along with a lot of people in real life. Whenever I go to the airport, I'm like, I will pay whatever it takes. Put me on a plane first, the least amount of people I have to deal with, whatever. I don't want to have to interact with people that I don't want to interact with. But I love studying and understanding people's minds. For me, one of the reasons I am so fascinated by Donald Trump is because of how he can control the crowds. You look at his rallies. Dude, you can't ignore them. They're just huge. My fiance's parents, or her mom and Kirby went yesterday, I think it was last night, to Omaha. 29,000 people showed up in the bitter cold of Omaha, a last-minute notice. That type of control or not even control, but that type of influence to be able to go through, what is it that makes people go and do that? So Francisco in the book, he was the partier guy and he went and he was with the crowds and he was very good with words and articulated, but he sold me at that wedding. I'm telling you. Russell: That was good. Josh: To me, there's more than two ways, but super simplified down, there's two ways to influence people. There's one, which is the indirect, which is build a software company, it's build a product, it's build an iPhone. You're not directly influencing them with your words or whatever, but it's influencing their behavior by creating a product, by creating a service that's going to go out and change the world. Then the other way is to actually go out there and change them with your words. That's why Jesus, for example, Jesus didn't build the product. He did it through His words kind of, sort of, but to me that's so fascinating. If I can figure out how to do that, that's how I can affect real change in the world. And it's funny because you've had had such a massive influence on my life, but probably a year and a half maybe ish into me knowing ClickFunnels, I was like, "Man, Russell's doing it all wrong." I had this thing of, if Russell would communicate more about stuff besides funnels, he would have a bigger impact. I had this limited belief of, this is the only way you can influence and impact people, is by going out there and actually speaking to them. But that's my superpower and my gift. In the book, Francisco was the one I think that best represents my style of trying to go out and do things. I find it interesting by Hank Rearden with you… Russell: I'm the same way. I would rather be in here building funnels, doing some stuff. There's scenes of Hank in the book where he's sitting there looking out over the factories at night and he sees, he watches the steel being poured, it's glowing. He's enjoying that. For me, it's similar where I do the stage thing and things like that. I get less value… interactions are hard, but I spend a lot of time on social media at night, just looking at the people that I know are in our world and watching what they're doing because that's me watching the steel. My mission is not to go teach people how to do what you do. I'm giving you a blow horn so you can go do it. That's more fascinating to me to sit back and explain to my wife. Events drive her crazy because then it'll happen and it'll get done and then I scurry off and I don't want to talk to anybody. I sit in the room and I just watch what people takeaways and then who they're talking to. I spend a lot of time just watching. That's for me like looking over the steel and being like, I gave them a trumpet or I gave them a blow horn and now their messages are going out there and I can just watch it. So for me, I don't want to teach personal development and this and that, but I want to empower or give tools or whatever tools there are so that you can and whoever all the other influencers are to be able to do those things. Does that makes sense? I'm an amplifier. I'm an amplifier of other people's messages and my message just happens to be, "Here's the amplification that you need to amplify your message," and then letting everybody else go and do it.

Welcome to the first episode in a special 5 part series. Over the course of these next 5 episodes, you’ll get to hear an interview between Russell Brunson and Josh Forti about the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. But this interview is much more than just them talking about the book, they are actually discussing business, religion, and politics (a subject Russell doesn’t talk about often) as they pertain to the concepts in the book. In this first section, you’ll get to hear the introduction and the basis for how the entire conversation will flow. The first main topic of the book, and the main concept for this episode is greed. Is it bad? Can it be good? Are we born with it? Can we change? So listen in to part one of this unique interview and start reading “Atlas Shrugged” (just read it, the movies aren’t great), so you can be ready for part 2! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And right now, I have a treat for you. Over the next five episodes, I'm going to be taking you in behind the scenes of an interview that I did with Josh Forti about the book, Atlas Shrugged. And some of you guys have read Atlas Shrugged, some of you haven't. Some of you know the premise, some of you don't. And I want to preface this by saying I do not believe in everything taught in the Atlas Shrugged book. I love a lot of it. It talks about producers versus consumers, the looters and the takers versus those in society who are the creators. Right? And there's a lot of things I strongly align with. There's also things that I don't strongly align with. And so I love the book, one of my favorites I've ever read. And so that's the first thing. Number two is, as I finished the book, I remember Josh Forti, who's one of our funnel hackers, he wanted to do the interview with me and I was just like, "I don't have time for interviews." And we're getting closer and closer to the election, we talked on Facebook. We were posting some comments and I was like, "You know what? The interview that I would actually love to do would be about Atlas Shrugged, looking at the whole political thing as it's happening right now and the elections and everything, through the lens of Atlas Shrugged. That'd actually be fascinating for me," because I don't typically, as you know, talk about politics. Right? I do talk about religion, but I don't talk about politics. That's not something I typically go into, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at politics from the lens of Atlas Shrugged. And so in this interview series, it's a lot of fun. We talk about producers versus consumers. We talk about the left and the right. We talk about some political things. Now Josh, just so you know ahead of time, he's very pro-Trump, very much on that side of the discussions during this interview. And this interview, just so you know, took place before the elections. As of right now, I'm still not sure who won. You guys probably will know by the time you're listening to this, but as of when I'm recording this, we don't know, but he definitely leans on the Trump side. I don't really share much of my political beliefs, but you'll get kind of what I believe and why I believe it through the lens of Atlas Shrugged over this interview series. So I hope you enjoy it. It was a lot of fun to do, a lot of great feedback and comments. And again, we talk about stuff I don't typically talk about ever. So this may be a one-time shot to hear inside my mind when it comes to politics, religion, and all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, the book. So with that said, I want to introduce you guys to the first part of this five-part interview series with me and Josh Forti, talking about Atlas Shrugged. Russell Brunson: Are we live? Josh Forti: We are live. Russell: What's up, everybody? Josh: Oh, my word, with the incredibly ... I don't know if long-waited. It hasn't really been that long. Two months ago. So much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson, himself. How are you doing, dude? Russell: I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation. Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Dude, this is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and philosophy and everything like that. Russell: No pressure at all. Josh: Well, it's funny. Your wife said, "Oh, thanks so much for coming out." I was like, "Yeah, it's certainly ... Yeah, because it's inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here." I will say, this is my first ever in-person interview like this. Russell: Oh, really? Josh: Yeah. Russell: We got the microphones set up. Josh: I know. We have- Russell: He’s a professional. I've never done this before. Josh: Literally, we have a soundboard down here. We've got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're going to answer some comments in the Facebook feed here because we've got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here. Russell: What's up, everyone? Josh: All right, guys. If you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're most looking forward to. And Russell, I'm going to be honest with you. We're just going to be super chill. Guys, we have a live audience back here. We've got Dave. Dave's over there. We've got Jake and Nick. Russell: What's up, Dave? Josh: Where'd Jake go? Russell: Jake's working. Josh: Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there. Russell: Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for this- Josh: Yeah, check us out. Russell: This is my Rearden Steel shirt. This is my Who Is John Galt shirt. Josh: Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like the back- Russell: Yeah the back I’ll read what it says. It says, "I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was mine to shape and the image of my highest values never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle." So do you guys like these shirts? These are custom made for tonight. And you guys may have a chance to get one of these, but not yet. No, not yet. Josh: Not yet. Russell: We'll let you know when the ability ... If you guys ... Josh: Oh, man. Oh, man. Russell: Anyway, it's going to be fun, but these are custom ... We literally made these today. We needed some sweet shirts…for the show. Josh: Okay, Will says he got your text. Did you send my text to everybody? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Russell on top of it. I sent out a ManyChat, Russell sent out a text. All right, guys. Let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this ... And it's going to be weird. You've got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about, what, probably three months ago now or so? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Two, three months ago. And I go, "We need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below." And shout out, Georgie. Georgie comments and goes… "I coached Russell. You should totally interview me." And I was like, "You've got to be pretty gutsy to tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him," but then Russell comments back- Russell: And George is an Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled at Boise State with me. He's the man. So yeah. Josh: I commented back. I go, "You coached Russel?" And then Russell goes, "Well, yeah. He coached me. He's awesome. You should totally interview him." And so I said, "Yeah, Georgie, of course, you can come on. We'll do an interview, but Russell, I've got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on." And then you were like, "Sure, if we can talk about…" or no, you didn't say sure. You said, "Can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?" Russell: Yes. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I interview a lot about business stuff and- Josh: I'll pull the microphone just slightly. Russell: Yes. I don't do a lot of interviews because ... I feel like I've said, but I don't want to say, but I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with, other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "If you want to talk about Atlas Shrugged, I'm in." And then you started freaking out. Josh: The funny thing was is I go something to the effect of, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott, because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that," to which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, "Ha-ha. Oh, man. That'd be fun." I'm like, "Talk about an open loop, man. Come on." So anyway, I immediately messaged Russel and I'm like, "You better not be joking because that would just be rude." He goes, "No, I'm totally in." Josh: So about two months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time, hanging out with- Russell: Lot of stuff is happening. Josh: Tony Robbins? Russell: Yeah, Tony, man. And it's been chaos the last couple months, not going to lie. And as we got closer and closer to the election, I'm like, "This is an interesting conversation, post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election." And so was it two days ago, three days ago, you're like, "I will fly to Boise to record this." Josh: Yeah. Russell: "What day do you have open?" I'm like, "Only Wednesday night." And now we're here. Josh: Yeah. It was Friday afternoon. We were Voxing back and forth and you're like, "Dude, we've got to get this done before the election." I'm like, "Before the election? Oh, my word." I said, "All right. Sounds good. What time do you have available?" And that's when I was like, "You know what? I was going to ask you creatively, but I'm just going to ask you. How about I fly out to you?" And you're like, "Heck, yeah." Josh: So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of both sides of the aisle there and open it up. Russell: Fun. Josh: Anything else you want to add to that? Russell: The only other thing I would add is, because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it yet, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. Russell: And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book, I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in in this conversation, I'm excited for and I told you not to do Voxer. I was like, what's fascinating to me is not, "This is what we should believe." What was fascinating to me as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but the big thing is producers and going out there and creating stuff and doing things, which is what entrepreneurs do. Right? And it gets in the part of greed is good. You should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then the byproduct's really good. Russell: And part of me is like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," and then part of me, as a believing Christian, I hear this message I believe in and then I hear in my mind ringing Christ, talking faith, hope, charity, and love. And I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, we dive into politics a little bit. There are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. Russell: And I think that there's a happy medium and that's what I want to dive deep into just because I don't want anyone thinking, "Oh, Russell and Josh just believe this," or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this and I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. Anyway, I've toyed writing a boy about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it should be fun to first time verbally ever talk about this stuff. So I'm excited for it. Josh: Yeah. And I would just echo that, as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me, with my ... So funny. You, who never, ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics, colliding here, but is that a lot of times I get grouped into, "Oh, you like this reading. Therefore, you believe with everything." "You read this book," or, "You support this person," whether it's a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like, by saying that you enjoyed that or that you learned a lot from it, that all of a sudden you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, "How could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged?" And I'm like, "Well, this is the conversation that we're going to have." Josh: So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious ... I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Hold up here. There's two different versions of it, but if you've read the book, just comment below the number one if you have read the book, the number two if you have not read the book. I think that will just kind of give us a poll. We've got 200, 300 people. Russell: And if you listened to the audiobook, we'll count that as reading, too, either way. Josh: Yeah. Not if you know the premise of the book, but actually have read the book and have a deep understanding of it, or not deep understanding. But have like… Russell: Understand the stories them in. Josh: Yeah, things like that, because then it'll be interesting. Russell: One is read. Josh: One is read, two is not read. Oh, more ones than I thought was going to. Russell: Yeah. Me too. Josh: Russell's book is so underrated. Russell: We're 50/50. Josh: Ooh, yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end; what's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the real question we should be asking right now. Russell: That would be good, that would be good. Josh: Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so we'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. Russell: Are you ready to get started? Josh: Yeah. I'm ready to rock and roll with it. Russell: Oh I’m ready. Josh: Okay. Guys, we want to lay a couple ground rules. Okay? Because I don't know what it's like to be Russell, Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Josh: I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expand upon this, is we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have an open discussion about it. This could very easily turn into something that's like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks, why Biden's great, why Trump sucks," something like that or certain religion. We're not trying to convince you of anything, really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, "We think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that," but the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, an understanding of it, and then honestly we're probably going to be in our own little world over here. Josh: And we want you guys to interact and comment and engage and push your questions. And we'll go back through it, obviously, but the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simple to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and give the perspective of somebody who, for those of you that don't know who Russell is, the founder of a ... ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? Russell: Yeah. Josh: 400 employees. So from that perspective and from my perspective, to open your eyes to a new perspective of what we like, what we don't like and, like I said, more of a conversation for us. Russell: Yeah. I think that's good. And I think a big thing that we will talk about ... Our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I'm still convincing myself of both sides. I believe both these two things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun. Josh: Cool. So I think we got to- Russell: Talk about the premise of the book? Josh: Yeah, we've got to talk about the premise of the book. Russell: I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help. Can I grab that? Josh: Ooh, yeah. Russell: Okay. So folks that have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. Some of you guys know Atlas was cursed to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders for forever. Right? And so this is where the premise of the book ... All of us, people who are listening to this might guess that you are a producer. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world. Right? Russell: I'm curious, how many of you guys have ever felt this pressure. Right? When you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders. And if you haven't, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, I can empathize, though. There's so many times, you can ask Dave or any guys on my team, there's days I come in, I was like, "I feel like I'm going to crack." There is so much weight to carry this around. And I'm guessing most of you guys have felt that. It could be with your family, could be in work, could be business, whatever, but you've felt the weight of the world. Right? Russell: So this is what Atlas had to hold. Right? And so the premise of the book, Atlas Shrugged, is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, "Meh." In fact, should I read your tile you gave me here? Josh: Yeah. Russell: So Josh, as a gift today, gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote, actually, from the book, Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant holds the world on his shoulders. If you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? Just shrug." That's things like, what happens to society when us, the producers, when we no longer want to carry the weight of the world? We shrug and we walk away from it. Russell: And the book is a story about that. What happens when these producers start disappearing and they start leaving, they start going on strike? You see society, what happens when the producers disappear. Josh: Yeah. It's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that and it's this ... How do you summarize a 1200-page book? Basically, in the book, there is a main character by the name of Dagny. Russell: Oh. Yes. Josh: Oh. Russell: I was going to say John Galt, but you're right. Yes, Dagny’s the main character. Josh: Sorry. For the first two thirds of the book, the main character is a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically, she is one of the producers of society. And she's not the head boss of the railroad, but she's basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950 is when this was- Russell: Yeah. Josh: So 1950, and it's basically this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and making them do things, kind of like today in America, but super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat, more or less, by getting the railroads done on time and getting orders shipped. Josh: And I'm super oversimplifying, but around her, all the people that she works with that owned all these other companies that she would buy copper from or she would buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, all of a sudden all these head people ... Imagine people like Russell, all his friends just start disappearing. Imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell all just started disappearing. Right? That's what's happening all around her and she doesn't understand what's happening to them because just, one day, it's up and it's gone. Josh: And so the premise of the first two thirds of the book is showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of super government tyranny, overreach that's super, super controlling and she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. Would you say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far? Russell: Yeah. And every time they disappear, they leave behind a note or something that says, "Who is John Galt?" That's this theme throughout the book, is who is John Galt? Who is this John Galt person that makes all the producers disappear? Josh: And Dagny has no idea who John Galt is. Right? She doesn't even know, actually, for awhile that John Galt's actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, John Galt becomes her sworn enemy because she doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society and is making her life harder because ... Imagine you being an entrepreneur and all of your entrepreneur friends that you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals and everything, you buy all your supplies from, imagine they're all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's taking them all away and you don't know what's happening to them. Obviously, they'd become your sworn enemy. Josh: So for the first two thirds-ish of the book, that's kind of this premise of they're painting this really, really vivid story of the ... what are they called, the great thinkers of society? Yeah, the great minds of society, basically disappearing. And Dagny and ... there's a guy by the name of Hank Rearden, I think. Russell: Yeah, Rearden Steel. Josh: Rearden Steel, yeah. So Dagny and Hank Rearden are the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, "Oh," and then you get introduced to John Galt. I'm going to let you explain John Galt now. Russell: Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them. They'll ruin the book. The movies were really bad. Josh: Yeah. Read the book. Russell: So two thirds into the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them to, "Look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Let's leave. Let's go on strike," and they leave. And John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, "I can't. I have to do everything in my power." The last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing as she's watching just government regulations getting harder, and harder, and harder, and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. Russell: But one of the things John Galt and the people say, "When the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up, after the looters and the people are gone." Josh: And that's basically how the books ends is lights of New York go out and then- Russell: For such a long book, all of a sudden it just ends and you're like, "Oh, I need one more chapter. Come on. Just end it." Josh: And we're never going to get it. Ah. Russell: Well, maybe I'll write it. Josh: Yeah. So that's the storyline of the book, but what I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and the overarching ideas that the book presents, and capitalism versus socialism, and I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that’s in that, but I kind of want to, if it's all right with you, I kind of want to turn the conversation more towards us now and just kind of start geeking out just about that. Josh: So guys, we'll obviously go back and ... By the way, we want all your comments if you're ... Actually, comment below right now. Where are you watching? Are you watching it on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching it on Russell's page? Comment down below because we went to multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below. Leave your comments, leave your questions, smash the like button, love button, share this out, and we're going to be here. Josh: All right, Russell. What's up? Russell: Hey, man. Josh: All right. Dude, I've been wanting to, and I hate this terminology, but just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And this book, oh, my gosh. So what do you like about the book? What was your favorite thing? Russell: Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I didn't realize that, that year, over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking to me about it, talking about, "Everything's she's prophesying is happening right now." And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends, like, "You have to read this book." It was the word-of-mouth buzz that sold 500,000 copies of a book has been ... The author died, whatever, 30 years earlier. There's not active marketing out there. It's crazy. And everyone's talking about it, like, "What's happening in this book is happening in 2008." And it was just this prophecy that was being fulfilled. Russell: And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, "This is a really, really big book." And it took me awhile to get into it and I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages four or five times. And then, finally, this summer, one of my very first trips where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So my wife is very proud of me. Josh: Dang. Russell: And so as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book. And I picked it up and I was like, "I have no computer, but I've got this." And usually, I bring 20 books just because I know I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book." So I brought it, got the audiobook, as well. It's funny, I do the same. I listen to the audiobook and I read along so I can listen to it way faster, that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development at the very beginning, it took awhile to get into it. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Russell: And then the story hits and then you're just like ... And you couldn't- Josh: It's like thing, after thing, after thing. It's so quick. Russell: Oh, yeah. And it got crazy. So for me, it was interesting because I think, if I would've listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book. Right? Josh: Now you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Russell: Even better. I never experienced government regulations and things like that or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to our first member, to our first thousand, 10,000, 100,000 members, 400 ... I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400 plus employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think all we'd be focusing on here inside ClickFunnels is the next feature in the app, next thing. Russell: And there's the year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. It's constant where most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about, how do we make this thing better for the customer? It's, how do we protect our customers from the government? It's crazy. And just so many regulations and things. Russell: And so I have been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins ... not interview, but Tony Robbins did an intervention with me last year in Fiji. Josh: Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way. Russell: I'm so glad we captured that. It was a really cool moment in my life, but if you listen in there, I talked about ... He's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, but the pressure ... I love the same, so I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving, but there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people, that they just get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away." And again, as I'm reading this book- Josh: You hadn't read the book at the time. Russell: I hadn't read it yet. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: As I'm reading this, it's like- Josh: Did you know anything about the- Russell: I did not know the premise, no. Josh: You knew nothing. Okay, okay, okay. Russell: I didn't know what Atlas Shrugged meant. I was just like, "Oh, it's Atlas ..." I didn't know ... And it was like, when I read this title, like, "What would you tell Atlas if this was happening? Just shrug." And I was like, "Oh, that's why they called it Atlas Shrugged." And then I remember vividly feeling the pressure of this calling and how heavy it is. Russell: And there's so many times I wish, like, "Okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever." And so I instantly, with Dagny's character, I was like ... I feel that with Hank Rearden. I had so much empathy and understood their characters because I feel that so many times. Hank Rearden just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, funnels are my art. I can't draw, but funnels, that's my art and entrepreneurship. That's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. He just wanted to create steel. And it's all these other things and it's just like, "I just want to do my steel. I just want to do my art. Why do I have to deal with all this other stuff?" Russell: And so as I'm reading this, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that and I'm internet, but I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious, what happens? How does this story end? Be I'm in the middle of it. And depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Russell: It's interesting. As ClickFunnels has grown, we've talked about the pressure that I feel today would've crushed me five years ago. Right? And so you have to go through this thing where you build capacity to handle the next set of pressure, and build capacity, and build capacity. And nowadays, stuff happens daily that's just like, "Man, that would've destroyed me five years ago." Russell: And so I think, if you guys haven't felt that, as you grow, as you continue to try to get your message out and try to grow your businesses, whatever, the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Josh: Do you think…with that ... And I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but with the pressure, the things that are happening now daily that would've wrecked you five years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, do you think it's good, though, that they would've? Is it good that, at the capacity that you understood, that you took those things seriously then or would it have been better for you to just be in this mindset? I know it's not possible, but looking back, if you could snap your fingers and back then would've had the mental capacity to just ignore all those things and go up, would that've been a good thing? Or the fact that you went through all those things, does that help? Russell: The going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? Josh: Being able to… Russell: It makes you ready for it. Otherwise, just like lifting weights, if you try to squat 800 pounds, that's what it feels like. Right? Your legs buckle and you die, but because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Josh: Okay. Russell: Yeah. So anyways, the thing for me that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just fascinated because I was like, "This is kind of my story. How does it end?" Josh: How long did it take you to get through it? Russell: I'd say about two months. I got a lot of it done on the boat, and then I got into biking for a little while, so I was listening to it while I was biking. Josh: That's right, I remember that. Russell: I just kept biking and biking, like, "One more chapter, one more chapter." I'm in really good shape because of it. It's funny because one of the premises ... And they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter, I think it's called Greed. And I remember, if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about, "Greed is good," and I never understood that premise. Right? In the book, they start talking about that, how greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called Greed? Josh: I'm trying to find it. Russell: Utopia of Greed, yeah. Josh: And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed. Russell: So what's interesting is ... because all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? That's just, like, you shouldn't be greedy. That's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us, but then I think about, for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I wanted to make money. That's greed, right? And you think about any of us, we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor. Right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become a good wrestler. It was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time and it was a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time. Right? Kids, when they're first born ... I love my kids. They are so ... not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: And it's this growth phase where growth ... You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase. Right? When you're trying to learn, you're sucking things and you're learning and you're not contributing it. You're just learning, you're growing. And it was interesting because, as I'm going through this, I'm like, the greed is what got me into business. Right? And it's what got these things started and then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things ... All the byproduct of it is ... I think, in the book, how it justifies it, Hank Rearden going after ... he wanted to build his steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changes all these things. Russell: And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you moving. And it is. If you think about any aspect of your life, from sports to education, to business, to everything, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper into this. I don't want everyone to think that I'm just into this for the greed, because there's a transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute, but there's a transition point from growth to contribution that happens, but that's in the book where it starts talking about that. Russell: And I remember I was on the greenbelt here in Boise, riding my bike with James P. Friel, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think, "Is this true? Did I get started because of greed?" And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business because I wanted to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was ... Greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward such a long time. And as I was listening as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, "Yes, I understand this," and the other half of me was like ... I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are, honestly, the opposite of that. Right? It's like- Josh: Really the polar opposite. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Which it's funny, whenever you say that, people are like, "You know, Jesus was a socialist." I hear that a lot. I'm like, "You need to read the Bible." Anyway, but I think a lot- Russell: But he definitely is way more liberal leaning, 100%. Josh: Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservative, traditionally on that side of the aisle, fiscally Republicans get into trouble is where we're like, "Yeah, we're Christians, but we also want to get rich," and they never talk about all this other ... People like to use Christianity, I feel like, when it's convenient. Russell: We call it cafeteria Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: They pick and choose the things off the menu they want. Josh: Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that, but continue that. Russell: Yeah. So that started this question in my head, though, of just, so is greed bad then or is it good or where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth. Right? When you're born, you're a baby, if you didn't have greed, you would just die. Right? It's me. I need food, I need love, I need shelter. It makes you cry, which creates people coming to you. Greed is a driving force that's instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. Russell: And first, I was having this conundrum. I'm just like, "God, is this book evil? I don't know what to do with myself." Right? But all good things in my life that happened happened initially because the seed of greed started me on motion, started me in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which- Josh: If you haven't, come on. Russell: If you haven't, you must hate money. Come on. No, but in the beginning of Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept, as well, where as an expert, there's two phases to go through. The first is a growth phase. Right? I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where, eventually, you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, trying to learn everything, going there. I'm listening to all the podcasts, I'm reading all the books, I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue ... The ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? Russell: I've shared this story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling camp. My coach was like, "Hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer?" And I was like, "Why would I do that? What's in it for me?" Josh: Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. So you're riding your bike, wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Russell: 100%. Josh: And this is, what, six months ago? Russell: Not even that. Maybe four months ago. Josh: So you've built most of what ClickFunnels is today and now this is the first time you're really sitting down and wrestling with this idea of greed and is it bad, is it good, what's the balance there and stuff like that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's fascinating. Russell: Yeah. It never crossed my mind, really. And then it became this thing where it bothered me because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a greedy person." You know what I mean? Josh: Right. Russell: I'm like, "I don't feel like I am," but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right? And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it will set it up. Josh: Yep. Russell: But my senior year, again, I'd been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps. I was getting coaching. I was greedy. I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach a wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to the wrestling camp, and I remember he's like, "Okay, I need you to teach ..." My best move… I'm really good at tilts. So for all the wrestlers out there, I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, "Teach these kids how to do a cheap tilt." Russell: And I was like, "Okay." So I walk out, there are like 30 kids. I'm like, "Yeah, you do this. You just do it like that." And they all look at me and they go try and they try to do a cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. I'm like, "Are you guys dumb? This is not that hard." I'm like, "Come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. This is how you do it." I show them again, like, "Go do it." They go back out, nobody can do it. Russell: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Gosh, they're missing something. What is it?" So I have them come back in and I start breaking down, "Hey, for the move to work, your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here." I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing, "Oh, the season why I'm able to do this is because of this," and I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. And as I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And all of a sudden, I started realizing, "Oh, my gosh. This move works because of this." Russell: And now that I was aware of the situation, now I was able to make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And I realized that, but coaching the kids, that was the next-level growth. It was a shift from selfish greed growth to contribution. So that's why I started coaching camps every year and that's why I went from slowing down my progression to, all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? Russell: And so I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us in the momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die and it's a tragedy, but I think for most people, there's this transition point. And I don't know where it happens. It happens different spots for everyone where, all of a sudden, you realize ... you make the money, you started the business, and you realizing how unfulfilling that is. You're tapping out. You're like, "I'm not growing anymore. I thought I wanted money, but I don't. I want growth. That's what we're here on this planet for, is to grow as humans. Right? Russell: You don't get that and, all of a sudden, you realize money's not fulfilling and then you start seeing the other people you're contributing to and you're helping. Then it shifts to ... We hear people talk about, "This is about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people," and that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ. It's that transition, but greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And are you guys cool if I share scripture stuff? Because- Josh: 100%. Russell: -all this stuff is scriptural. It's not just- Josh: They don't get to decide, Russell. I get to decide. It's my podcast. You can talk about whatever. Russell: If you hate scripture, just close your ears and go, "Blah, blah, blah." So I wrote down some scripture. This is a scripture because it illustrates this point. I think it's so good. Josh: Also, I just want to say, Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. When you said that, I'm like, "Ha! I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go." Russell: I want to be ready. Okay. So this is a scripture. It says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever." I'm going to stop right there. Okay. So natural man is an enemy to God. Why is that? We're born. We have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed. Right? But God gives us that seed because it creates momentum. It creates motion. It creates us doing something. Right? Russell: And then it says in here, it says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, will be forever and ever," and then this is the transition point, "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." So he's greedy forever, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Russell: So growth is the seed. It's the natural man. It's the thing we have that's ... It's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, gets us to not die in our crib because we need love and attention and to get fed. Right? So then it gets us off our butts, off the couches, us being producers that gets us moving. And if we're not careful, though, the natural man will destroy us. You see so many people who made tons of money and they destroyed themselves in their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is, "Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." Russell: That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing. And it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden, now this thing you’re creating is not about greed, it's like, "Oh, my gosh ..." I remember, for ClickFunnels, when I had that transition was when I started seeing Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. I started seeing the ripple effect of their business. And I can name hundreds of people, person, after person, after person. Russell: I was like, "This isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created in each person's life." Now, that's charity. That's love. Now the mission isn't about money. We don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but that's the mission, is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where greed is the thing that gets us moving, but if we don't have that ... Russell: I think that's happened in the book. We talked about it. You said this at my house earlier, like, "A lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life." And it's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. They never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to the charity side of things. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things about the book ... And I'm sitting on the plane on the way over here and I'm like, "How do I articulate this?" Because that's always the hardest thing. You have this idea in your head and you're like, "How do I get it out and explain it in a way that somebody else can be like, 'Yes, I understand that?'" I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back, too, specifically to the book. So I am pretty vocally a conservative. Right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal, but I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. I think the government should stay out of gay marriage. Right? There's a lot of things that I lean left on, but when it comes to money and finances and things like that, I lean to the right. Josh: But the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is because I like what the left is trying to do in concept. It's like, okay, there's a bunch of people that are really truly in need. I agree. We need to help them. The problem is is that the way they go about doing it, I so radically disagree with it. It's against everything that I stand for. Right? I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do, it's I disagree with how you want to do it. Josh: What's interesting is I feel like, in this book, I feel like it's the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. This concept of ... I mean, Hank Rearden says it over and over again, "Everything that I do is for profit." That is it. Even to his friends. He took a bullet for John Galt, right? He gets shot. And John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, "You know I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right?" Literally saves a guy's life. Josh: So it's all about what he wants and only for him and that's it. And it's profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise, but what that leads to, I actually do like. And I feel like it's flipped compared to the world I'm living in now. Half the stuff that the Democrats ... I hate to… oh I want to go into politics so bad… Russell: Left and right. Josh: Yeah, the left. Guys, we're going to say left and right. Generalized here, right? Oh, my god, but generally speaking. And so when it comes to the whole greed issue, I'm like ... It's interesting to hear your perspective because I never, even throughout the book, I'm like, "Greed is a bad thing." And hearing your perspective, I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying, but is it greed or is there some other driving ... If I were to ask you a year ago ... When were you in the heart of ClickFunnels, like a year and a half ago, two years? There was a time of your life when all you ... I know all you do is ClickFunnels, but when- Russell: It's the last six years of my life. Josh: But you know what I mean? Wasn't there a year or two period in there, in the growth phase, where 100% of everything you do was just ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but from the outside perspective looking in, it does. Anyway, during that time of growing ClickFunnels, before you read that, would you have described yourself as greedy? Russell: No. Josh: What would you have described yourself as? What's the word? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. I was always trying to create stuff. It's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. I think, initially, I was creating for myself as opposed to, "Oh, my gosh. I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people." Josh: What point was that shift for you, though? Russell: You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, it actually is a better marketing way, too. My marketing went from- Josh: For all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor, you’ll make more money. Russell: Well, think about it. My marketing is always like, "Here's Russell. Here's how much money my funnel made. Here's how much ..." It was me talking about me all the time. And then I realized, "Who cares about me? I don't care about me. Let me show you what this person ... Let me show you all the results of the people we're serving, what's happening there," which first off, is better marketing and, second off, it's that transition where I was literally like, "Everything I've accomplished is stupid. What they're doing, that's the real ... What we're doing, that's the thing that's amazing." Right? That's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like, the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And when you start seeing that, it's like, oh, my gosh. That's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. Russell: And people ask me, "The last six years, why'd you keep getting up? Do you need more money?" I'm like, "No, that's not what keeps me up," but I can tell you 100 stories of people who ... literally the ripple effect of how many lives they've changed because I did my thing. Right? We made a documentary of the Two Comma Club and Jamie Cross has this whole part there where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And every time I see that, I start bawling, myself. That's why, eventually, you start doing it. Right? Josh: But when did that shift happen? Russell: I don't know. It wasn't a day that it happened. The energy of it shifted. Right? I don't know. It gradually kind of happened. Josh: What's that? Dave: Tell them about your dad. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Dave, come on in. Dave's here. Dave, take the mic. Here. Dave: Yeah. No, honestly, I think… this has been one of those things. It's been fun for me to watch Russell from the sidelines here. I think, honestly, it was your dad's 60th birthday. Josh: Which was how long ago? Dave: I don't even know. Russell: Three, four years ago probably. Dave: But it was the reflection on that and it was the difference from having your hand raised versus ... because I remember you… Russell: Yeah, you want me to tell that story? Dave: Russell is a much better storyteller. I'll seed the thought, but I'll let him finish. Russell: All right. Josh: Oh, thank you Dave. Russell: Thank you. Interesting. Josh: Guys, we have a live audience here. Russell: So yeah, my dad turned 60 and we have our little family reunion every year we do. And so it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom gave him $60, six $10 bills. And so she gave them to him one at a time and said, "Okay, the first decade was one to 10. Tell us something you remember about that." He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. It was so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, he was like, "Okay, that's when I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then 50 to 60, he kind of went through everything. Russell: And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Well, Dad, of all the decades, what one was the best for you?" Thinking, in my world, the best was going to be when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade was when I got to coach you." I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that I always thought the best part was being the all star. For my dad, the best part was coaching other people and seeing their hand raised. Josh: That was a good interjection there, Dave. Huh. Russell: …which was really cool.

You can build the business and the life you want! For two years, Steve Larsen was the Lead Funnel Builder at ClickFunnels for Russell Brunson, and put over 500 sales funnels under his belt, eventually earning a "Two Comma Club" award (a funnel that made over $1,000,000). I recently launched my funnel, www.ShawnMYesner.com/BecomeDebtFree after taking the One Funnel Away Challenge (this is my affiliate link) with Steve as one of our coaches. Thanks to all of you who supported the funnel, we're helping people to get out of debt and I've hit the "One Comma Club" (over $1,000 generated from the funnel). In today's episode, I interview Steve and his energy is infectious! How did he feel using funnels to "bootstrap" his way to the event that introduced him to Russell? What is it like to get that first subscriber, first sale? What about the 1,000th? Learn the tips that Steve uses to discover his strengths and how he determines the next funnel or project. You can find Steve at www.SteveJLarsen.com, and listen to his new Launch For Profit Podcast. Finally, what would you do if you knew that you could not work after the next 90 days and you had to make one final offer to sustain your business moving forward? That is Steve's Your Final Offer course, which you can find at www.YourFinalOffer.com 

Co-Principal Investigators Jessica Bellamy and Josh Poe share their work connecting data justice, housing justice, and abolition and discuss their practice of accountability and accompaniment, and subversive intellectualism in the South. Jessica Bellamy is an award-winning international speaker, workshop facilitator, motion infographic designer, and research analyst. She and her colleague Josh Poe are the founders of the Root Cause Research Center which is a grassroots-led institution that collects data, creates data visuals, and trains impacted community members in research and data storytelling. Jessica's research career began at the University of Louisville's Neurodevelopmental Science Lab, where she worked for nearly five years. She later used her training as a research analyst, as well as her training in community organizing and graphic design to start GRIDS: The Grassroots Information Design Studio, which was a social enterprise that combined all three skill sets to benefit social initiatives. Josh Poe is the co-founder and Co-Principal Investigator at the Root Cause Research Center here in Louisville. He is an urban planner, community organizer, and geographer with over 20 years of scholarship, activism and practical experience in planning, urban land policy and housing issues in his home state of Kentucky and Seattle, Washington, including with Black Lives Matter Louisville. Make your voice heard about the Smoketown development: https://www.cflouisville.org/resources/smoketown-feedback/

  How to Put a "Twist" in Your Brand with Julie Cottineau (Archive) Julie Cottineau is the Founder and CEO of BrandTwist, a brand consultancy group that helps entrepreneurs and corporations build stronger, more profitable brands. Prior to launching her own business, she was the VP of Brand at Richard Branson's Virgin Group, overseeing branding strategy for new and established Virgin companies in North America. About the Interview: Ever wonder how Richard Branson manages to shake things up every time, in so many different industries? Julie Cottineau, spent 5 years as the VP of Brand for Virgin in North America helping to grow this iconic brand. Now the best-selling author of TWIST: How Fresh Perspectives Build Breakthrough Brands (Panoma Press 2016), Founder & CEO of BrandTwist will show you how TWIST your non profit's brand  for maximum impact. Fresh ideas come from looking at old problems from new perspectives. In this podcast, Julie will teach you how to: Go beyond “me-too” marketing, and get stand out Make the most of every brand touch-point – large and small Connect with target more deeply to create loyal brand ambassadors Walk away with tangible new ideas for your organization Why nonprofits should care about brand A unique, compelling brand can make or break even the strongest, most worthy enterprise. Once you understand the true nature of your brand, you achieve clarity and focus. You are in a much better position to serve the cause and the people you're really passionate about. Literally, it can change a life. Your charity, church or synagogue needs a strong brand – one with a TWIST. The TWIST is your unique story that will help you stand out, get the attention your good work deserves and build a loyal community of followers, donors, and volunteers.   Read the Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. It's Hugh Ballou and Russell David Dennis. Russell, how are you out there in Denver, mile high Colorado? Russell Dennis: The sun is shining, but you step outside and it's very cold. I'm having Northern Maine flashbacks with these single digit temperatures here. Hugh: We are recording in the wintertime. People listen at all places. It might be warm in the other hemisphere, and it might be summer in the northern hemisphere when you listen to it. But the message is that we give you the techniques and strategies and information. It doesn't have a season. It's stuff you can use any time. This is a real important topic today, like all of them, but we tend to skip over this thing of branding. We tend to think it's a picture, a logo. We got a brand, we got a logo. We are going to explore the different facets of branding and give you a top level view of what it looks like and what it is. One of the best people I know has this great book out called Twist. Julie Cottineau. Did I say it right, Julie? Julie Cottineau: Close enough. Hugh: I have a good memory, but it's short. Thank you for being our guest today. Tell the people listening a little bit about you and a little bit about brand twist. Julie: I think I have been branding since I was eight years old. When I was a little girl growing up in Massachusetts, my parents wouldn't let me have a pet because my brother was allergic. I went out in my garden and took a rock and put it in a Cool Whip container. I poked holes in it so it would be able to breathe. I invented the pet rock. Two years later, some guy named Gary Dahl in San Francisco invented the official pet rock because he was also fed up with regular pets. He was in a bar after work, he worked in advertising, and all his friends were leaving to feed their cats and walk their dogs. He said there has to be a pet with no hassle, so he created the official pet rock for no hassle. I created the non-allergic pet rock. Ever since then, I have been creating solutions with a twist from a different angle. Hugh: Twist. How did that name come about? Julie: That's another story. I was working as a branding consultant for Interbrand, a large branding agency. I was traveling all over the country. I was at Newark Airport one day. I looked out of the window and saw this 747 with these golden arches on the tailspin. I stopped in my tracks and thought, That would be a really interesting airline. It would be different than all these other airlines that had the same color seats and stewardesses and the same experience. A McDonalds airline, maybe I could buy a regular economy seat and supersize it to a premium seat. I looked up again and realized that it was a mirage. It was actually the reflection of the food court sign on the window, and there happened to be a plane. You following me? It was a hallucination. But it started me thinking, if you are in the airline business and want to break through, stop worrying about your other airline competitors and twist with other brands. Find brands that you admire that are doing cool things outside of your category, and twist those lessons with your brand. That started it all. Hugh: We put a snazzy title for this. The top mistakes. What are some of the things that people do that you wish they wouldn't do? Julie: We put the top three mistakes; it was hard to keep it to three. Hugh: I'll bet. Julie: You can grow to four. These were mistakes nonprofits are making. The first one is what we were just talking about: not really understanding what a brand is. In fact, confusing your branding with your marketing. That is a big mistake. Your marketing is how you get your message out there, but your branding is your fundamental story. What are you about? Why should people care? All great stories, if we think about our favorite movies and books, they have a twist. They have something unexpected in the plot. The number one mistake is stop saying if I only had ten times the marketing budget, I could build my nonprofit. Well, I could throw 20 times the marketing budget at you, but if your brand isn't in shape, your fundamental story of who you are, who you serve, and what's different about you, then it's a waste of money. Hugh: It's a waste of money. What happens when- I guess one of the fundamental branding issues with a nonprofit is the word “nonprofit.” It really puts us in a negative twist of scarcity thinking and nonprofit, we gotta have profit to be able to run this church or synagogue or community charity. How do we start out on this journey of creating our brand? Talk about brand image, brand promise, brand identity. There is a lot of facets to this besides the logo. Julie: Your brand is not your logo. Your brand is fundamentally your story, and your logo and name should help reflect that. I think a very unique challenge of nonprofits is the second mistake. They really try to welcome everybody. People who work in the nonprofit world are attracted to it because there is this inclusive instinct. Branding is actually about choices. If you have a page of your website that tries to tell everybody about everything that you do, you will connect with no one. It's like the twist on AT&T: reach out and touch someone. It's like reach out and touch no one. What I say the most important thing about branding is be clear on who you want to serve and the issues you want to promote. Be very choiceful. Narrow them down. Most nonprofit websites look like someone threw spaghetti up on the website and wanted to see what sticks. Branding is like an onion. Just tell me a little bit for me to get to know you, and then I will keep peeling the layers back to continue to get to know you. Less is more. Particularly in nonprofit branding. Hugh: Russell, we see lots of funky things, don't we? Russell: Yeah, it gets really interesting. If your target is everyone, you're marketing to no one. What it's about is really having people understand what it is that you do. A confused mind always says no. From a perspective of nonprofit, what is it precisely that a brand should do for a nonprofit? What is that main benefit that they get? I don't think people always understand the benefit in taking time to actually build a brand. What is that main benefit, and how does that really empower nonprofits? Julie: The main benefit is your brand promise. Getting clear on your brand promise. Getting specific on your brand promise. It's not we want to help people, or we want to make everyone feel included, or we want to make life better. Those brand promises are not gonna stick because not that they're not valid, but they're just so overused. It's like when Charlie Brown hears the teacher talk, and all he hears is “wah wah wah.” When I work with nonprofit clients, what problem are we trying to solve? Can we get really specific on that problem? Not that we want to give people shelter or help homeless people, but keep digging deeper. We want to help people feel at home. We want to help people feel that they can realize who they are in their minds versus how other people are seeing them. We keep digging. We get to one brand promise. The main thing we do with that brand promise is we don't validate it by looking at all the other nonprofits in our space, and we don't create it by committee, which is hard for nonprofits. Nonprofits love committees. What we try to do is say if there is a leader of the nonprofit, whether it's the president of the board or head of marketing, they need to own the brand. Everybody else can contribute their ideas, but at some point, someone needs to make a decision and get everybody on board. Versus we need a direction that everybody can live with, but no one hates. That is the definition of weak branding, when you go to the lowest common denominator. Hugh: She has good sound bites here, doesn't she, Russ? Russell: Brilliant. It's quite a field. I have done some marketing myself. I started out working in market research and sold some advertising on television and in print. But that doesn't really speak to brand. I was just fascinated by why people do some things. Describe to us what attracted you to the career of helping others build brands. How did that particular piece of marketing expertise jump out at you? Julie: I've always liked storytelling. I studied communications and creative writing. When I was little, my rockstar was Judy Bloom. I won a contest at the library to go hear her speak. To me, that was winning the Super Bowl. I was so excited by it. I've always been interested in storytelling. Branding is a very unique way to tell your story. I am in my office. I like to use all the different tools that I have. My brand is purple because it's the twist of red and blue. I tell my story not just in words, but also in images. You will never see me on stage without some purple on. The walls of the office are purple. The cover on my book is a twist of pink and purple. Nonprofits, one of the mistakes I see them making is they use stock photography because it's cheap, and I understand that. But they build websites. Don't invest a lot of money in them, but build them with a lot of images. The minute they set up their nonprofit, they are saying we're just like everybody else. There are inexpensive ways to take stock photography but frame it differently, treat it with a different color. We learn those lessons by looking at brands like Tiffany's. Tiffany's is a great brand to twist with. If someone gives you a blue Tiffany's box, I say to my husband, it almost doesn't matter what's in the box. The blue is their brand. Tiffany's robin egg blue. It sets up this expectation of an experience. I think that nonprofits should look at things like that, like owning a color. As soon as you see the red Target ad, you know right away, even if you don't hear the name and only see a slice of the logo, you know right away it's a Target ad. Hugh: It's funny you bring that up. They are changing their colors in Lynchburg to white. I don't know where I am. I was so into the red. The doors are still red, and people still wear the red and khaki. You were vice president of Richard Branson's Virgin. What are some of the important things you learned from that experience? That's powerful. Julie: It was an amazing experience. I think the biggest thing that I learned from Richard is not to be afraid to fail. He has an expression, “Fail harder.” Another one he has that is hopefully ok for this podcast, and is the title of one of his books is, “Screw it, let's do it.” If you have a good idea, and it feels like it's going to make an impact, don't test it to death, don't run it through 10 different committees, just try it. It might be successful, and it might not be. We know that we learn the most from the things that go wrong. It really opened me up to being more adventurous. I came home from my corporate job. I had been there five years, and I was having a great time. I said to my husband, “Screw it, let's do it. I am going to start my own company.” He said, “I don't think that's what that means. We have two children to put through college.” I said, “No, that's exactly what that means. I have an idea to create a branding consultancy and a book and a learning program, and I'm going to do it. If it's successful, great. If it's not, I am going to learn a lot.” That's what I did seven years ago actually. Hugh: Wow, you're still there doing it. Your book is called Twist: How Fresh Perspectives Build Breakthrough Brands. I remember you kindly sent me a copy to preview it. I think I did a respectable interview a couple years ago on the Orchestrating Success podcast for business leaders. This is a wholly different focus today. Really it's not. Good branding, good leadership, good marketing is probably the same. We do have a lot of hang-ups when we are working for a nonprofit that we shouldn't have. Where can people get your book? Julie: You can get it on Amazon. The easiest place. Hugh: And the color makes it stand out. I was amazed, Russell, that she finds a way to twist that word “twist” into pretty much every page of that book. It's phenomenal how this plays out. Before Russ goes into another question, I want to ask you. You do board retreats. There is a tension between different perspectives and an apparent contrast. When you have this side and this side, when you start looking at the intersection, there is some real finite truth or wisdom. We have a different outcome, but we also have ownership at some level. When you do a board retreat, I would assume it's a branding retreat, talk about the dynamics of how the board plays into the decision and how it goes from the retreat to the final decision. That is where a lot of us get stuck. Julie: Board retreats are interesting dynamics. The first thing I do is get everybody out of whatever the location is, whether it's the church or synagogue, into a relaxed atmosphere where they can think differently, to use the apple. I also get them to start thinking about other brands. We don't think about our organization as a brand, as a story, as something unique. We get bogged down into that won't work, we tried that, I'm not sure about that. We have to remember that the people we are trying to engage, whether it's members, donors, or volunteers, they don't live in this box with only our brand. They live in the wider world with a wider brandscape. I ask the board members ahead of time, “What brands do you admire, and why?” If you admire Starbucks because it customizes your order or Nike because it motivates you or Uber because it helps you get around when you are on a business trip, why wouldn't you bring some of those qualities to your organization? Why wouldn't you twist some of those things? Why shouldn't our church or synagogue or nonprofit also be customized and seamless to use and have clever impactful messaging? When I get them to think beyond their nonprofit to his larger brandscape and twist those ideas, then it breaks through. We come up in a short amount of time with solutions we hadn't had for months and months of board meetings. The second part of your question is the trickier part, which is how do you move it forward? That is where I would say it shouldn't be a democracy. The president of the board or the head of the nonprofit should get the input of everybody. If they are in a position of leadership, they have to take the leadership and say, “I have listened to everybody. This is what we're going to do. You don't have to agree with it 100%, but you have to understand why we're doing it and help us tell the story to a larger group.” Russell: That's an interesting perspective. There is a tricky balance to strike as far as getting by it. Obviously, you want your people to go with that. Who exactly is brand twisting for? With nonprofits, you have multiple audiences. You have multiple constituencies. You have your board, volunteers, donors, other people who fund your work, staff. How do you make that marriage work for all of those different audiences? Who is twisting specifically for? How do you do that? Julie: I like to work in brand development committees. I just rebranded a school system. We created a brand development committee that had the superintendent as the leader. Ultimately, she is the leader of that brand. She had to buy into it. We had two members of the board represented, not all 12, just two. We had a few practitioners represented, so some principals and teachers. We had some staff, the people, if we were going to change the website, on a daily basis, who are going to have to program it, and things like that. We had a committee of about 8 or 10 people. We worked in that committee and got through surveys and other strategic planning input from the community, parents and students. You can pull in input as data points, but don't make your committee 30 people sitting around a table. You're not going to get anything done. The 8-10 people worked on the branding solutions. We led them through the process. We committed as a group with the superintendent's opinion counting the most to the one recommendation we were going to go back to the school board and make, with a lot of great rationale of how we got through the journey. It worked because we had a process. We had representation. Ultimately, we went with a recommendation and a clear rationale on that recommendation. Russell: When it comes to communication, eight people is about the span of control. Once you get beyond eight, the wheels start to come off the wagon. Julie: What we did was when we rebranded, we didn't ask everybody, “Do you like this?” Branding is like naming your kids. You never tell anybody your intended names until the birth announcement comes out because all those opinions won't be helpful. It's your opinion as the parent that really counts. We named the new logo and gave it a story. We created a video that explained the change. We launched internally first so all the teachers beyond the committee got the preview first. Then we went out to the larger group. It wasn't like the brand launch was overnight. It wasn't just throwing up a logo and saying, “What do you think?” It was a really carefully crafted story that we told over and over for about a year until everybody understood it and got it and got behind it. Russell: One of the things that you mentioned in the book is that people have blinders on around branding. What is it that you mean by blinders? How do we work around these? Julie: It's like a horse, if you're trying to lead a racehorse out and put the blinders on so they can't see anything beyond them, it keeps them going forward. But the downside of that in branding is we work in nonprofit that has to do with cancer. We spend all our time looking at nonprofits that have to do with cancer and we worry about being seen as legitimate. Because we worry about being seen as legitimate, we end up being very safe but also using the same words and images as everybody else. That is what I mean by brand blinders, is only thinking in your category. If you lift your head up, I mean honestly your next board meeting, have it in a Starbucks. That would be a good use of everybody's time, or your favorite restaurant, or your favorite brand experience. Say, Look around. Why are we spending twice as much on a coup of coffee? Why is this an experience that we all come to? Why is everybody else hanging out here? What are they doing? Look how they are naming the baristas. Look how they are using the color green. Look how they are creating an atmosphere of welcome. What are the specific things that they're doing to make us feel like this is not just a cup of coffee, but an engaging experience? How can we twist those with our nonprofit? Russell: What do you think are some of the more common mistakes that nonprofit leaders have? I imagine that these blinders have a lot to do with it. But what are the most common ones? Julie: Sticking within the category is a really common one. Another thing is taking too much input, trying to do too many things, like I mentioned. Most nonprofit websites, the front page will give you a headache because they are talking about everything. Setting a clear vision and using that as a funnel. I would say there is some overlooked brand touchpoints that nonprofits should think about. In my book, I talk about these vomit bag moments, which came from Virgin Atlantic, which was one of the brands that I looked after as part of Virgin Management. Virgin Atlantic did a very clever thing. They had these air sickness bags, which they had to provide anyway. It's an FAA requirement. They have to be in every seat pocket for every flight over six hours, I think. Most airlines, well, what color are they for most airlines? Hugh: White? Julie: White, plain, no message. What Virgin Atlantic did was brand them. They made them red, which was the brand color, and they wrote a little story on them about how flying used to be fun, people used to get dressed up, and what happened to flying in terms of taking away all the peanuts. They twisted it back to a story about on how Virgin Atlantic, you will always feel great flying. I say to for-profit and nonprofit clients is: What are your vomit bag moments? What are the things you're doing anyway as part of your brand experience, but you could add a twist? Whether it's an invoice that you send, whether it's a thank-you note, whether it's a gift, on-hold music. If you have a phone calling as part of your nonprofit. Those are the little moments where you could add something that supports the brand and stands out. Hugh: When did this word “twist” come in your present thinking? How did that get so deeply embedded in your being? Julie: I think it was that airline experience. The McDonalds airline, I needed to look in a different way. I needed to look at things from a different angle. The more I started using it, the more people played it back to me as something that was helpful to them. Hugh: I like how she uses it instead of other words and twisting ideas into something that is unique. Part of what you all are talking about is back when you started this interview today, who do we serve? It's our avatar, so to speak. Russell talked about marketing. We have to have a target. We want to attract certain people. We tend to think everyone needs us. How do you help your clients narrow down to that specific person that they want to attract? Julie: We create brand avatars. We look at up to three targets, and we create personas for each of them. Instead of saying, if you're a medical nonprofit, it's health care practitioners, we will say it's Dr. Bob, and we will give Bob a backstory, and what keeps him up at night, and who lives in his household, creating a character in a novel. We will do that up to three times. What we're looking for though is to turn this target into real people with real problems we can help solve. Hugh: When we're talking to a specific person, we're talking to the person who is sitting in the community nonprofit trying to figure out how to attract donors and volunteers and the next board member. Russell hit on it earlier, he says a confused mind says no. How many times have we had people ask for donations and board and all they get is excuses because all that person sees is I'm going to get sucked into this vortex? Russell: Endless time commitment and bottomless blank checks. People aren't clear. The brand is important. The one question I have about brand is is a brand what you make it, is a brand forever? Are there appropriate times to look at it to see what you have is outdated or not working? Julie: That's a great question. I think you do need to update your story every once in a while, or at least take a look at it. I do a lot of rebranding, if organizations merge, when there are major changes in the segment that organization serves, when there is new leadership. I think it's a very worthwhile exercise every five years or so to check in and say, “Is that story we're telling now relevant to the people we're trying to serve? Is it relevant to who we are at this moment? Have we become something different?” Even if you go through one of those exercises and don't change anything with the outwardly facing part of your brand, you will have validation that you're telling the right story. I think that's a really important exercise to do. I would say if you look at great brands in the for-profit world, like Coca-Cola for example, their core brand promise has always been about happiness. But every once in a while, they will update their advertising. “We'd like to teach the world to sing,” or “Open a Coke and a smile,” or “Happiness.” The fundamentals are there, but there is a bit of a refresh. People get excited about the refresh. People pay attention to brand refreshes or rebranding. It's a great opportunity to get out in front of your targets and your donors and say, “Let us tell you what's new. You might have noticed we made some changes. It's not because we just needed cosmetic changes, but our vision is evolving. We wanted the brand to reflect that vision.” Hugh: We've talked around these terms. Let's clarify. You've used the phrase “brand promise” a few times. There is a brand image, brand identity, brand promise. There are different facets. How do you segment the different parts of a brand? Julie: Your brand identity is everything. It's the way you show up, the way you present yourself to the world, not just in your logo and website, but in the way your people behave, etc. I look at it as a house. The brand promise is the roof. That is the main thing you stand for. There is a diagram in my book of the roof of a house. That is what you enable. If you look at Nike, for example, they sell sneakers, but their brand promise is “Just do it.” Supporting that roof, you have three brand pillars. Those are your values. Why should I believe that you're someone who can help me just do it? You have three pillars that support that. Hugh: When we're doing strategy, we nail down the problem we're solving. Why do we exist? What is our solution? What is our unique value proposition? What do we do that's different from others? Is that the building block to a brand? How does that fit into the branding that you do? Julie: Yeah, I think your unique value proposition is your brand twist. That is your brand promise. When I do it, I like to make them succinct and easy to remember. I'm not a big believer in mission, vision, values, 10 layers of the brand. When I do it, I answer four questions. The first is “Who are we trying to serve?” and dig into that psychographic. What are we promising them? That is your brand promise or your unique value proposition. Why should they believe us? That is your brand values. Who, what, why? The last question I answer is how, how do I bring it to life? What is my website? What is my tagline? What is the way I dress? What are the cuts of people I hire? One of the biggest mistakes I see for nonprofits and for-profits is they say, “We want to update our website.” If you are creating a new nonprofit, they are creating a new website. They go right to the how, how are we going to bring this to life? But they don't do the who, what, and why. They don't have a strategy. They spend hours and hours on versions of websites and logos, and they waste a ton of money. They think they'll just know it when I see it. It's not a great way to create a brand. You have to have a strategy. Once you have a strategy, the execution is actually pretty easy. Hugh: That's so common. Russ and I see that a lot. We had David Corbin on here a while back. David has a book called Brand Slaughter. We have seen that happen with another airline; we won't mention their name, but their initials are United. That one person destroyed the brand. It's happened a few times. But there are other companies where one person acted in a way that violated the way the company wanted to represent their value proposition and brand identity. What we do, we do values and principles. Part of that is how do we behave in the culture? How do we make decisions? Talk a minute about taking this brand promise we have and how to get people who are volunteers, board members, committee members represent that brand. We can violate that brand with our behavior, can't we? Julie: Yeah. You asked me what I learned from Richard Branson. That's the second biggest lesson besides taking chances. Your employees are the ambassadors of your brand. They bring the brand to life in their behavior. I do a lot of internal brand activation, meaning I train employees on the brand. I train them how to behave based on the brand. If our brand stands for teamwork, we actually look at all of our systems and evaluate where we are acting as a team and where we are breaking down. I had one client who was standing for teamwork, but we realized their office had an open plan with lots of cubicles. There were no nameplates. Somebody new to the team, it was taking them months to learn everybody's name. That's not a way to create a team. They'd see each other in the cafeteria, and they were embarrassed because they didn't know each other's names. Something as little as that. Definitely hiring. I use my brand values, even if I am hiring an intern. I ask them questions. Tell me a time that you twisted. Tell me about a time that you solved a problem from a different angle. Hiring, training, and rewarding on brand. Don't keep your brand values in a notebook somewhere. People will start really paying attention to them if they know their compensation or advancement is tied to them. Hugh: I just remembered when I was in high school, the twist was a dance. Russell, rescue me, will you? Russell: Thank god for the power of good video editors and sound editors. The first couple of months, I was co-hosting. This is Hugh, and old what's-his-name in Colorado somewhere. But it's important for people in the organization to have all the tools. If your organization is firing on all cylinders, even the person that comes in and sweeps the floor at night can talk to you about what that organization does and how it works. We have had good discussions. The brands that stick out in our minds are large, a lot of them larger than life. A lot of small nonprofits are resource-starved. They are listening to this, thinking, this is all well and good if you have 100 grand to throw at your marketing. But if you are like us, you're small and don't have a lot of resources, how do we build a brand? How do we bring this about with limited resources? Julie: Having a strong brand is even more important if you have limited resources. If you have limited resources, you can't afford to have things that don't tell a really tight story. I work with a lot of small businesses and nonprofits, 1-3-people sized companies. We spend that time on the brand promise and the brand pillars because that allows you to use every tool in the toolbox to tell the same story. Branding is harder, but more important, when you're smaller. It allows everything to work together. When I worked at Virgin, we actually spent way less than all of our competition on advertising. Way less. Virgin Atlantic spends way less than British Airways. But those ads would stand out, and they would create a loyal following. They would punch above their weight because they were very clear about who they were going after. The twist was very clear. What was different about the experience was very clear. Russell: What are some of the tools as a bare minimum that someone in the nonprofit should have to be able to talk about their organization in a compelling way? Are there one or two tools that you would say are absolutely essential? How important is it that these are simple and easy to use? Julie: I think your website is probably the biggest tool. For good or for bad, people come in, even if they are going to meet you in person, they will look at your website. Your brand walks in the room for you, and it sticks around after you're gone. I think having a smaller website, one or two pages, that are just super clear and really visually engaging, is important. The same thing for business cards. As you said, a confused mind doesn't remember anything. Keep it really simple, really streamlined. Your website, your business card, and your presentation. You can do a lot with live presentations. But talk on your elevator pitch. Have your elevator pitch be concise. Help people understand what you do in three floors, not in 35 floors. That comes from being clear on your brand and practicing it. I was telling Hugh at the beginning that I have done a lot of work lately with personal branding. I am teaching a class at Stanford with Tyra Banks who has built a huge personal brand as an entrepreneur and model. I think that nonprofit leaders need to embody their personal brands, and show up as their brands, whether that is wearing a color, a tie, or a pin. Don't go around saying your nonprofit is caring or innovative and not acting that way. One reason Richard Branson has been so successful is his business brand is about shaking things up, but his personal brand is about shaking things up. He spends a lot of time- he is the most followed executive on Twitter. He tweets about business and also life. He is frustrated about things, and is finding new ways to solve old problems. Russell: I follow Richard Branson on LinkedIn. He has a lot of interesting things to say. A lot of people think about them. I think most of us have interesting things to say. A lot of people who may not be clear on how interesting the stuff they have to say is, or how to put it together. We talked about the people of stories. How do you work with people who are having difficulty finding their voice, what it is they stand for, what it is they want to communicate? Julie: The first thing I do is offer brand health checks. These are the best place to start. You wouldn't go into your doctor and say, hey, help me fix everything. You go in once a year and say, “These are the things I feel good about. Here are some of the things I think need attention.” We offer these brand health checks through the website. What we do is spend some time asking you some questions. We look at your materials, whether it is your LinkedIn profile or your website. We will triage: What are the areas you need to look at? Maybe your brand promise is pretty good, but you are not expressing it right. Maybe your targeting is all over the place. Maybe you need to use social media in a slightly different way, or colors in a slightly different way. These brand health checks are a great place to start. Hugh: In your book, you talk about brand blinders. Can you say more about that? Julie: Sure. Those are when you are looking in your category and not outside of your category for inspiration. Taking off your brand blinders means that you are looking beyond your segment to the larger world for inspiration. Hugh: We want to make sure you highlight this offer. You say you work with a lot of individuals on personal branding, small businesses, and nonprofits. We have probably a mixture of all of those that follow us and listen to us and watch this. Where do they go first off for this brand checkup? Julie: We have two diagnostic products. One is a brand health check. That is 60 minutes. That is if you want to talk about your overall nonprofit. Go to BrandTwist.com. Get Started. Brand Health Check. If you are interested just in your personal brand, we have a personal brand plan call. That is half an hour. That is very similar, but we will ask you more personal questions. That is great for people who want help with their leadership, who are changing careers, who are job seekers. We talk a lot to recent graduates who want to get into the nonprofit or another space. That is for people who want to focus on their personal brand. But all roads lead to BrandTwist.com. We will have a special promotion for your listeners. Hugh: You are? Behind your head, it says Brand School. What is that? Julie: Brand School is our online school that we offer a few times a year for small businesses and nonprofits. It's a 10-week program. We get you all of the consulting that a big company would get, but we do it in groups of 10-12 students at a time. More heavy lifting on your side. It becomes more affordable and also creates a community of entrepreneurs. Hugh: Do you have a blog or podcast or anything people can tune into to get more of Julie? Julie: Yeah. If you go to BrandTwist.com, we have a blog that we update all the time. I am pretty active on Twitter as well. @JCottin on Twitter. You can Google Twist. We have good branding. There is lots of information that comes up. Hugh: Yay. Russell, why don't you have another question? He's got one cooking, I'm sure. Russell: All those wrinkles in my forehead are just common creases. They don't have any particular significance. For those of you who are watching this now, there is a branding twist school coming up. A semester in a couple weeks. If this is something of interest to you, look at it. One of the things I saw as I was looking through this website, which has a wealth of information, there were some things we didn't talk about. Julie says there are three mission-critical reasons why you should have a twist. I'd like for her to share those if she could. Julie: The first is a twist will help you stand out. I think it's really hard to stand out today in the competition. The second is bringing a twist to your business means you will have more fun. It's hard work. We should be having fun and doing things differently. I would say the third thing is think about your personal twist. Many of us will change careers or work for different nonprofits over the course of our lives. Paying attention to your personal and professional twists will always serve you. A lot of us are serial entrepreneurs or serial nonprofit professionals. You want to build not just a reputation for your nonprofit, but also your own reputation. Hugh: We talked about the symphony a little bit. There is a composite here. Maybe that's the wrong word. But you have the symphony, which needs a brand. We have 750 orchestras in this country. I bet you most of them want to play classics, so they want people to come. They complain they are not attracting millennials at all. There is a real interest in millennials for authentic historical church and culture. The orchestra has its identity, but the conductor also has an identity. That is the person that shapes the sound of the orchestra and is the figurehead for the orchestra, even though there is a huge culture. Is that a contrast or a conflict? Is there a synergy? There are lots of examples, but I tend to know a little bit about this one. Julie: I think there should be a synergy. I think it's great that you have an organization that has its identity. They don't have to be identical, but there should be a synergy between the face of the organization and the group. The other thing I would say is that orchestra who is looking to attract millennials, this is a great example. Take off your brand blinders. Stop looking at what other orchestras are doing. Look at brands that are attracting millennials. Twist those lessons. Hugh: Whoa. What do you think of that, Russ? Russell: I think that she is absolutely spot-on. Only Virgin Airways can be Virgin Airways. Everybody can't be exactly the same. When you are focused on what everybody else is doing, you are probably leaving your own unique talents on the table. It helps to go through a process. We lead people through a process with our own success framework, and brand twisting will help you do that as well. It's looking through that unique lens of what you bring to the table. Hugh: Our SynerVision brand is based on creating synergy through the common vision. We know who we are. We know where we're going. We know who we want to influence. It not only builds the synergy on our team, but it's building the synergistic interaction with our audience, our supporters. *Sponsor message from SynerVision's Community for Community Builders* We are going to let Julie give you a final thought or challenge or tip as we close out this really helpful interview. Julie, thank you for such great information. Julie: My pleasure. I would say if you feel that your brand isn't as healthy as it should be because you should build the brand that your business deserves, then I'd love to talk to anybody listening to this. You can go to BrandTwist.com and look at our brand health check or personal brand plan. If you put in the code SVLF, then you will get 15% off any of our products, and you will go to the top of the queue in getting something scheduled. I would love to check up your health and support your community however I can. My final thought is your brand is your business, whether your business is for-profit or nonprofit. You can't separate the two. You can't say, I'm working on building the business over here, and the brand over there. Strong brands are connected. Your brand is your business. Make it a priority. Russell: Great. If you haven't visited this website, go check it out. BrandTwist.com. There are cool tools here. Don't think you have to trip over half a million dollars to do something about your brand. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Improving Donor Relations: Getting The Right Message To The Right People With The Right RhythmInterview with Wordsprint CEO Bill Gilmer Read the Interview Hugh Ballou: Hey, folks, it's Hugh Ballou. Another chapter of The Nonprofit Exchange. Russell David Dennis, last week you and I were in Florida. It's a good thing we're not there this week. Russell Dennis: Yes, it's a bit windy down there now. I'm hoping everyone is okay. It's looking like the storm is turning off and it's not going as far inland as they initially thought. Hopefully all of our friends and the wonderful people down at Kaiser who made us feel so welcome are okay. Hugh: It's called a hurricane, but it's really a slowcane. It's going slowly through there. Welcome folks to this episode. We have a special guest today, Bill Gilmer. He has been on the ride with us ever since we started the magazine. I think over five years ago. Bill Gilmer, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Bill Gilmer: Thanks. Glad to be here. Unlike Russell, I am in chillier Blacksburg, Virginia. No hurricane on my horizon, I don't think. Hugh: Yeah, we just are down the road in Lynchburg. Bill, we ask our guests to say a little bit about themselves. Some background. Why is it you're doing this important work you're doing today? Bill: My background, I used to be a printer. I used to run a printing company. Over the years, we discovered that most of the work we were doing was for nonprofits. Over the years, we started tracking response rates on donor relation campaigns. We have put together a system of marketing to donors, and that's what we do every day. Help folks build relationships with their donor base. Hugh: You've been working with SynerVision five or six years ago. Let's declare up front that Wordsprint, Bill's company, is a sponsor of Nonprofit Performance Magazine and SynerVision's work in general. We talk about you often on these podcasts. It's a pleasure to have you here live and in person. This is not an infomercial for Wordsprint, but we know the value of your work. We talk about the 30/30/30. That's the secret for success. Just to be clear, people can do this on their own. They don't need you. But if they want to do it the very best way possible, you know how to do that. I want to be clear on that. Explain what this 30/30/30/10 is all about. Bill: What we discovered, and this is lots of data, we started tracking this back in the early 2000s. I think we're up to 20 million touches, 15,000 campaigns. What we discovered is that there are three things that matter. It's our three-bit marketing system. There are three things that matter when it comes to donor relations. The first is having the right message. The second is getting that right message to the right people. The third is getting the right message to the right people with the right rhythm. We help clients focus their message, stay consistent with their message, stay on message. We help them with the right people by helping with database cleansing, database acquisition, all kinds of demographics and predictive analytics. But most importantly, we have developed a system for staying consistent and rhythmic with your donor touches. We've observed through all our data that is where many nonprofits fail. It's the rhythm and consistency. The right message to the right people with the right rhythm. That's the 30/30/30. Hugh: What do you say to people who say, “I've tried mailing. It didn't work. We tried sending out a mailing at the end of the year, and we got a little bit of money, but it doesn't work, Bill.” Bill: I tell them that I tried dieting once last year, and it didn't work either. Hugh: I tried working out once, and it didn't work either. Bill: I tried to exercise once, and it didn't work. It really is like diet or exercise or physical therapy. These are things that work if you implement them rhythmically. It's not a quick fix. Rhythm doesn't become rhythm right away. It needs a few cycles. In fact, on average, for most of our clients, it's really in the third year of repeated rhythmic touches that the donations start to snowball, that it really begins to build. This is not a showhorse thing. This is drip marketing, if you will. But it works. Hugh: It works. I've seen it work. Dig a little deeper into the right person and the right message. I want to know more about how I can do this. Bill: The right message, the first pillar, is your brand. It's who you are. It's why you go to work every day. It's your mission. It's your elevator speech. What we found that nonprofits who stay on message, who stay true to themselves about who they are, are the ones more successful over time as opposed to those who try to be all things to all people or try to repackage it or try to rebrand every year. I'm not saying you can't rebrand, but you need to do so carefully. The right message is mainly a matter of consistency and articulating it clearly. Having the right taglines, having the right logo, having the right paragraphs. The right people gets more complicated. It is all about relationships. We find that the nonprofits who succeed are those who create a database culture, where they take those relationships and get them into the database that everyone in the organization is empowered to update. Your best donors are the people you know. People donate to people. People donate to you because they trust you to fulfill your mission. It's the people you know, the people you run into, the people who come to your open house. These are the best potential donors. The organizations who know how to capture that and bring them into their database so they get rhythmic touches and notifications are the ones who succeed. You can also acquire data. We do a lot of this. Using some fancy predictive analytics, we can acquire names of people who are more likely to donate to your cause than others. That is almost a whole topic in itself. Hugh: Talk a little bit about that. We constantly run across people who say, “I don't know anybody.” If we do have people who are in nonprofits that maybe they get donations, but they don't have a donor management program per se, or they work with a number of early stage. Talk a bit about how you acquire names legally. Is there a magic database program that I can use to connect them with? Bill: It's all legal. There are about six or seven big players in this game called compilers. These are companies who do nothing but purchase, massage, and resell databases. You've heard of some of them. Dunne & Bradstreet does this mostly with businesses. Experian. Equifax, the one that had the big data breach. InfoUSA. There are others. There are literally thousands of brokers and people who take the information from these larger players and resell it to folks like us and you. Demographics are available. We as a society click a lot. We are on our computers and are clicking. We go to Amazon. We read the paragraph. We look at another book. We order this. We fill out a warranty card. We subscribe to a magazine. We join a club. All of those are data transactions that are public and can be sold and resold. The hard demographics have always been there, things like the value of your home, the car you drive. That's public information. But these compilers gather so many data points on all of us as consumers that they are able with artificial intelligence help to see patterns and build logorhythms. They know if you've done this and this and this, then you are more likely to support a nonprofit that focuses on children and especially disabled children. That is how detailed it can get. Or you are more likely to support a local nonprofit that works in the music arts, like an orchestra or a symphony. We call this predictive analytics. This is data that indicates the likelihood of someone supporting your cause. This has gotten way better than it even was six months ago. What we usually do—and Hugh, you have had some recent experience with this with one of your organizations—when we do a database acquisition like this, we then compare it to the organization's existing donor database. If the predictive analytics have been accurate, there will be considerable overlap. Your organization had 3,000 names. We bought another 700-800. Three years ago, you'd expect 10-12 of those to be an overlap. We had a 250-name overlap in that case. Those analytics were extremely accurate. These are folks not just demographically speaking but in terms of propensity are more likely to support your cause. You still have to touch them and touch them rhythmically. That is where the rhythm thing comes in. That is where you need to establish a system of cadent touches over the course of several cycles. At the end of the second or the beginning of the third year, that is where you will start to see donations come in, and it will start to snowball over time. Hugh: When you are talking about clicking, we're talking about mail in the U.S. We are not talking about email with our computer. Bill: I don't think I caught the last part of your question. In terms of what we advise for donor relations, it's a combination of mailing and emailing. Russell: It's so systematic to your approach to keeping and maintaining donors. Especially small nonprofits will be overwhelmed when they start thinking about all this data, and maybe a little confused as to what a touchpoint is. Lots of folks like me get lots of mail and email from a lot of the same folks. Maybe they think, “Oh, I don't want to be this person who is bombarding something with emails a day.” When you talk in terms of touches, there are certain things you are accomplishing with each touch. Let's take a generic year or quarter and talk about what touchpoints there are and the methods behind them. Bill: Let me give you a common example of a mid-sized local nonprofit. Let's say they have 10-12 staff. On average, our clients would have several touches. They would probably have one event every year. In the spring, they will do a luncheon where they talk about their cause and ask people for money while they are there. They might have a monthly blog. The first Monday of every month, they put something out on social media. They might have a fall appeal mailing. Here is where they write a letter. “Dear Dr. Smith, Here is what we do. Please give us money.” If they are smart, they will have that appeal mailing coupled with an auto trigger email, where the day after Dr. Smith gets the letter, he gets an automatic email that says, “Hey Dr. Smith, did you get our letter yesterday? I bet you trashed it, didn't ya? You can still click here to support our cause.” Once in the winter and once in the summer, they will do an e-newsletter. They are sending out information two or three times a year. Information only. They are asking for money in a hard ask twice a year. In the example I gave, once with a mailer/email and once with an event. Something like that. We have some clients who do mailers and ask for money every month. We have others who do it once a year with a hard mailing. What we don't have is much success with straight email solicitation. People do like the convenience of donating online, but they don't trust it unless it has something based in the physical world, whether that's a letter they got and threw away, then they get the mail. They will trust it a lot more because they have the mail piece. They go to an open house, and they then trust the email because they associate it with the real-life physical experience they had. That would be typical. A hard ask twice a year, information only two or three times, and maybe something monthly on social media. What we find does not work is the single big blast. So many people want to put all their eggs into one basket. We will have this big shindig and send out 200,000 invitations. It doesn't do that well. It is better to touch 200 people rhythmically than 200,000 in a blast. Is that helpful? Russell: The key is to spread these over with ask, non-ask. Give them information about the programs they were talking about in the newsletter. How the dollars are impacting, how many people were served, what the shift is. Bill: Impact is huge. Russell: If we're talking about contacting 200 people at a time, this probably means for a medium-sized nonprofit they are sending stuff out weekly to different donors.   Bill: Most of our clients, an average database for our clients is in the range of 2,000-10,000 donors. We often do mailings of 3,000. Sometimes we do 100,000. On average, let's say 5,000. Most of our clients would do one or two mailings a year. A fall appeal and a spring appeal. In lieu of the spring appeal, sometimes they would do a spring event. The other touches, the social media and the e-newsletter when they are not asking are information only. That would be a balanced mix. Let me get to another key point. This is the magic right here. Rhythm is important. Understanding the rhythm that your clients respond to. Most of you know this. Most nonprofit organizations have a pretty good understanding of how often their donors and potential donors want to be asked. Once a year, twice a year, once a month sometimes. The organization usually knows what the rhythm should be. Rhythm is so important that you sustain it over the years that our biggest piece of advice is adjust the scale to match your budget so that you can sustain the rhythm. We actually help clients with spreadsheets so it says we want to mail to 20,000 people twice a year. The postage alone exceeds your budget. You can't do that. “Let's try it one time.” Don't do it. Adjust that scale. If you can't afford the postage of 20,000 appeal letters, can you do 10,000? No. 5,000? You play with that spreadsheet and settle on we can sustain 2,500 twice a year. That's the amount you go with. You have this pool of 10,000. How do you target down to the 2,500? That's how you do predictive analytics. Mail to the 2,500 who are most likely to donate to your cause. It's a budget thing. You adjust your scale to match your budget so you can sustain that rhythm because if you sustain the rhythm through several cycles, it works. This is based on data of what actually works, not what makes you feel or look good, but did the donations come rolling in. Russell: What is the best path to help a new organization or client when they come to you? They may have some stuff they kept on Excel, but they don't necessarily have a donor database or CRM. They looked at these things and thought they were hard to use. They know they need to get better information. Talk about that process where you help them look at the most important factors and how to organize that data and how you guide them to build that so they get effective data from what they are collecting. Bill: There are lots of databases out there as you know. We deal with lots of them. People are constantly asking us which one is the best. All I can honestly say is the best one is the one that someone in your organization is willing to dive into. The right operator, any of these databases can sing. They really can. Some of our biggest clients use Salesforce for their nonprofit data. There is a whole spectrum. It's not so much which CRM system you use. It's do you have someone and a back-up or two who know how to use it? If you have no money and can't do anything, use Excel. It's not so much what you use as how you use it. We can assist. We understand a lot of the databases. We love working with Excel in terms of immediate back-and-forth with our clients. They will export their database to a CSV or Excel file, and we will update the addresses and run through a deceased person's filter. Make sure that list is scrubbed and clean. But we do all that from Excel. Russell: It's a robust program. Microsoft itself. What trips people up more than anything else is understanding what are the most important pieces for me to collect, and then once I collect all of these, what is the best way to categorize or shift my people around or look at now I have it, how do I use it? Bill: This leads into something new we have been doing within the last couple of years. Let's say you inherit a nonprofit. You come in as the new executive director. There has been some staff turnover, and you have three or four huge Excel files with all your donors. You don't really know your donors. You have some record of who gave when, but you don't know why the other people are in there. Are they good prospects? We can actually take that database, those Excel files, do all the usual stuff, combine, de-dupe, update the addresses, make sure they aren't deceased. Then we do something called data append. We send that file—let's say you have 3,000 names but you only know who 50 are—confidentially to some of these national compilers. They can run it versus their data banks and come back with demographic data filled in where you get age, education level, the value of the home, household income, gender, political persuasion, all sorts of things you can add back to that list. That can be a target. You can say, “Listen, these 300 people don't match the profile of our donors. I don't see why we're mailing to them. They haven't given to us in five years. Let's drop them. But these 400 look really good. They match the profile. They are active in the community. Let's keep them on our list.” We call it scoring data or modeling data. There are all kinds of things like that. Russell: There are so many nuances to relating to donors. They come from different backgrounds, education levels, parts of the country. They are in different age groups. When people look at this and say, “I have a lot of different people,” what is the best way for me to organize these groups? What are their touchpoints that are more effective for some groups than others? How do we go about looking at that? Bill: One thing I haven't talked about yet is what channel you use. Is this a demographic that will respond to a Facebook post or a physical newsletter or an e-newsletter? You can ask them. That's a good question. “Would you prefer to receive this?” Make some age and generation assumptions. Millennials actually like direct mail more than you think. Some older folks don't like it as much as you think. The one thing we do advise people to do is do what we call a scattergraph. That's where you sit around the table brainstorming and make a graph of your best donors in terms of age, income level, value of home, education level, geography. As you start graphing this, you will have people all over that graph. You will have young kids who donate to your cause. You have great-grandfathers. You have uneducated and educated. But there will be, the more you plot those dots on your graph, a cluster in the middle. That is your sweet spot. If you want to go after and acquire more donors, acquire more who match those demographics. Add those predictive analytics. It's good to have a profile of who is our sweet spot donor, and how many. Russell: Very helpful. When you start working with an organization, what type of organization are you most effective at helping? What are some of the things that the organization can do that will help you get them results a little faster? Bill: That's a great question, Russell. We find that most nonprofits are pretty good at the first 30%, the message. Nonprofits know most well why they do what they do. It's their passion. It's why they go to work. They usually have that part nailed down. They have that elevator speech. You can't shut them up. They got the message. We find that we can help a lot with the rhythm. We can build these Excel sheets. We can send reminder notifications. “Make sure your blog is written. It's due tomorrow.” “Your e-newsletter should launch next week.” We send reminders that keep them on track, like how a FitBit reminds you to hop up and walk around. These notifications keep you on track. The one that is hardest is the data. It's relationships. We don't know the people in their database, but they do. They know more of them than not. Say the thing in the organization could do is the best results is to go through their database with as many constituents involved as possible: your volunteers, your staff, your key donors. Break it up into small bits, and do a little bit at a time. Try to understand who your donors are. That would probably be the best. Leverage your board. Every board member should have a gun to their head that says, “Who do you know who might donate to your cause? Give us their names.” Leverage conversations. Your whole staff should be encouraged. You have a new administrative assistant who is helping you with this. She bumps into someone at the grocery store who says, “Hey Sally, I haven't seen you in a long time. What are you doing?” “I'm working at Habitat for Humanity now. We are doing this and this.” That person says, “Wow, that sounds interesting. Tell me more.” Sally needs to know to come back and get that information in the database. That person she just bumped into in the grocery store is a better prospect than any of these purchased names we are talking about. Everyone in the organization from the board to the staff to the volunteers should realize it is their personal relationships that lead to the best database. Russell: It's a warm referral that is good. One of the things that I've seen information on and talked to people about in having people on your team, you want to have good tools for them to use to go out and talk about your organization. If you can take a few minutes, talk about some of the tools, printed tools, the toolkits that you make the board members and volunteers and people with information on the organization, how they organize that, and the tools they have to talk about the organization in the best way. Bill: Funny you should ask. We just worked up some handout cards as old-fashioned as that sounds, a little bigger than a business card. The organization calls them the “Get Involved” cards. On one size is the logo and a truncated, poignant abbreviation of the mission. The back features three ways to get involved. You can go to this website and do this. You can become a volunteer and do this. You can call this number and do this. They give these cards to everyone on staff, their volunteers, and encourage them when you are in the grocery store and your old roommate comes up to talk to you, you give them one of the cards. Something as simple as that. Russell: It's important to have those pieces. Is there a way you have people who have these tools, a simple system for them to keep track of how many people are coming? How do you help them document the effectiveness of these tools? Bill: We haven't done a lot of that. The organizations themselves usually keep a database of how many cards did you hand out, and did you talk about it? Ideally you are getting some address/city/state/zip/phone number/email into your database from that encounter. That's the ideal. When you bump into the old roommate in the grocery store, you ask for a business card or a text so I can keep in touch with you. “I'd like to send some information about XYZ charity.” The ones I know do this on a regular basis have weekly staff meetings and go over contacts. It's the most important thing. You're an ambassador for your charity. It's those contacts. People give to people. I know you think they give to your organization because you do all this good. They give because they know and trust you to carry out that mission. It's all about trust. Hugh: Underlying that is relationship building. I can't tell you how many nonprofits out there get a check and wait until next year to ask for another check. I don't know what the average is, but 70% of most nonprofits get the bulk of their money from donors. There is a large percentage. Bill: Yeah, we really do need to take care of our donors better. We recommend the pyramid where you take your database and have your top donors at the top. At some point, you draw that line where everyone above this level of giving gets the personal visit from the executive director or the personal phone call or the three phone calls a year, whatever that appropriate nurturing touch is. The ones at the bottom get a thank-you card. The top people, your key donors, need to be acknowledged, need to be thanked. They need the recognition. You can't do that with all 3,000 names, but you can do it with the top 50. We recommend that pyramid approach. Hugh: It's the old Pareto principle, the 80/20 rule. 80% of your money comes from 20% of your people. The leader is challenged to be able to spend enough time with too many people. My rule of thumb is what you said. You want to spend individual time with your 20%, but you want to stay in touch with the other 80%. Your program is a good way to do that. Bill: We slice and dice it even further. I'll give you an example. They won't mind me talking about them. It's a local arts nonprofit that does theater and plays. They have a huge donor database. The ones at the very top get the personal visit, the handwritten note, the crème de la crème. The next hunk of several thousand records gets variable data printed communication. Variable data has a salutation, “Dear Sam and Jackie.” This communication flips out pictures of the last show they went to. It's highly personalized because they have scrubbed the data that far down that they trust it and know it's accurate. Variable data personalization works as long as it's accurate. The bottom part of the pyramid gets the “Dear friend of XYZ Theater.” The bottom part of it is not personalized because they simply don't have the resources to scrub their data all the way down and make their salutations are correct and other variable data is accurate. Russell: This is important as far as it's managing your budget. You're getting the most bang for the buck and where a lot of people don't think they have money to spend, they may find that after going through and working with someone like you, they may be able to find where they can actually spend the same dollars and get more bang for the buck. When you're working with an organization, sometimes they have board members or volunteers or different people participating in the process. How important is training for all of these key people? What are some of the most important things for you to cover when you're training them? Bill: Let me do a tangent because something you said reminded me of something. This is back in the early 2000s, 2006/2007, right in there. We had not developed our full-blown three-bit marketing system. We were beginning to gather the data and understand that the rhythmic touching is what's important. I ended up being the chair of a small nonprofit. It was a private school trying to get off the ground in the middle of nowhere, southwest Virginia. We didn't have the money to hire my company. We were struggling. We had about 300 names of donors and potential donors. We had 10 board members. 300 names, 10 board members. What a coincidence. Here's what we did. We wrote the letter. We took it to the board meeting and said, “Okay, Sam, you're on the board. You're responsible for these 30 potential people. You make copies of the letter, sneak them into church, and pay the postage. That's why you're on the board.” We assigned each board member 30 records from that database. As an organization, we didn't spend any money. We leveraged our board. They each had to make a few copies and come up with 30 first-class stamps. We did that rhythmically. We did that appeal mail three times a year. By the third year, what do you know? We could afford to have someone else do all this. That was definitely training board members to get in the trenches. Hugh talks about this all the time. The importance of an energized and dedicated board is, I can't say enough about it. That is so critical to have in a thriving nonprofit. Russell: That it is. It's all about the people who you have, who support you, who are in your organization. Your team is your secret sauce. That's where you grow and prosper and create more impact in the lives of others. Knowing how to reach out to them and what really resonates with them is very important. Having that system and having the tools to get them there. The one thing we haven't really touched on is with donors, you have three phases. You're acquiring them. Then at some point, as they're sticking with you, you want them to grow, and you want them to stay. There are three pieces to that. If you would, talk a bit about some of the best ways to move them through that process. How do you acquire them? What are some key tips for that? What are some things that will help you grow them? What are some of the most important things to keep them sticking with you? Bill: The acquisition part we talked about a bit. The best way is those personal relationships, those personal contacts. The second best way would be doing some data acquisition. You can do it yourself; you don't have to go through a company like mine. Google “how to acquire donors,” and plenty of places will crop up that will sell you names. That is the acquisition part. The rhythm means a lot here. The rhythmic touch is how you keep them and how you make them poised to grow. Usually, it's in the second or third year that you get the first donation from a brand new contact. To do that, you need to do those rhythmic touches. This is not an overnight success thing. This is in it for the long haul. It's rare, not unheard of, but rare for someone to move from a $50-per-cycle level to a $5,000-level without something happening. That something could be they come to an event, they hear a speaker, they get a visit from a board member, they get a visit from an executive director. To get that kind of nurturing increase takes something. It's rare that someone would jump from $40 to $500 or $5,000 through repeated passive asks. I think one of the best, it doesn't fit every nonprofit, is to have that annual luncheon where the board members are assigned to fill tables. When they invite people, they let them know, “We will do a presentation. We will ask to give you some money. You don't have to, but there will be an ask. We'd really love to have you.” You get people in the room and have dynamic speakers. You have some of the people you serve. It depends on what kind of nonprofit you have. You do things that give people a real glimpse into how you make the world a better place. that has been known to move people from the $50 level to the $500 level or $5,000 level. Russell: Well-executed non-ask events are critical, too. Just to let people know, “Hey, we're good stewards of your money.” There's some magic about walking them around where they can see where it is people are actually out there in the trenches doing good work. Speaking to some of the things you can acquire and move these services out of the community so they get a working understanding. That growth piece, getting them and growing them, is your lifetime value of a customer for lack of a better way to put it. That takes time. To grow them, you have to keep them. What are the two most important tools? Bill: There are some simple things you can do. You need to thank them for their gifts. The pyramid, the top ones should get a personal visit or phone call. At the bottom, maybe it's a handwritten thank-you note. More and more of our clients are doing the board pizza party, where they get their board together and some phones. Around dinnertime, they serve the board pizza, and they call the top donors. They do it around dinnertime so a lot of people don't answer the phone. But that's fine. You leave a message. The board member says, “Hey, Dr. Smith. I want to thank you and your wife for your $500 gift to our organization. We really appreciate it. It helps us do this, this, and this.” That donor will remember that. That donor will say, “Hey, a board member called me.” That's a nice little thing to do, and to touch the top donors that way. The ones at the really top, the big players, probably need the thank you from the chair of the board and the executive director. You can hit a lot of those mid donors with a call from a board member. Think about the donations you make. How often do you get a phone call of thanks? Not many. Maybe I'm not donating enough. Russell: It's always good. It's just common courtesy. If you're in a supermarket, someone holds the door. Saying thank you to people is a reflex. But somehow, it seems like from some of the statistics I've seen, it's one of the more common mistakes that people make. They don't take that time to say thank you. What are a couple other really common mistakes that people make that are just quick and easy to fix? Bill: Accurate data is really big. If you say “Dear Sam,” and the name isn't Sam, that's not good. You've got to be very careful with variable data and personalization. Personalization gone awry does more damage than it does good. One thing we've been doing more and more, the post office has gotten better with the deceased persons filter. You try to cut out saying, “Dear John and Sally” when John passed away a year ago. That's an easy mistake to fix. Run the data through the filter. Don't mail to dead people if at all possible. Data cleanliness is a common thing. Not thanking is the biggest thing. You mentioned something earlier. Every touch can't be an ask. It really should be more information only touches than there are ask touches. The top donors should get a report at the end of the year, maybe a few months after. Not a fancy annual report, but a sheet of, “Here's what your donation allowed us to do.” You can do these infographic looks. You can really show people what you've done. We have a client now that has this neat system. They do three newsletters a year. They have an elderly donor base. These are physical newsletters. Because newsletters are more expensive, they've gone to a news postcard. They send out these jumbo postcards three times a year. Short bullet point articles that show their impact. Every one of those short articles, it's just bullet points and headlines. People don't read anymore. There is a link to a website you can go to if you want more information. They do this three times a year. In the fourth quarter, they ask. They push out information on a 3:1 ratio with their ask. We recommend something like that. 2:1, 3:1, something like that, so people don't think, “Good grief. XYZ charity is always asking for money.” It has to be, “Here's the good things we're doing.” Your social media should be that. Your social media personally I don't think should ask for money. I think social media should be, “Look what we're doing. Celebrate with us.” Russell: It would certainly be a place to capture your benefactors, the clients online and talk about what's going on. Some of the sites that the work is being done on, it's almost like the news medium. When someone hears their name mentioned on social media, you get a thousand followers. Whoa, they're talking about me. This thing has 1,000 views and 10,000 followers. “Hey, maybe I need to send them another check. They need to get my good side next time.” Hugh: That's part of the story. Telling a story, you have relationships. There are people who want to be in the picture with a big check. I don't think we think about the amount of stories we need to be telling because we are doing a lot of good work. We don't really tell people. In fact, social media is social. We are supposed to engage. I see all too often, “Buy this. Do that.” And there is no attempt at a relationship. That is what I'm hearing you saying. In our program, we are building relationships. We are maintaining relationships. People give to people. That is the biggest sound bite. People give to people, not to organizations. Bill: I agree. It's all about relationships. It's all about telling your story. That's what relationships are. We as humans are people who have relationships with each other, and we tell stories to each other. It's the way you come home to your spouse and say, “Hey honey.” We love to tell stories. I think social media is great for this. You have these snippets and tell this vignette story of something your nonprofit did or something that you did. It's to build relationships. The best donor is the one that knows you. I keep coming back to this. You have a personal relationship with them. But you do it by stories. We recommend the hard ask appeal letter everyone does in the fall that it start off with just a three- to four-sentence story that is in a nutshell what you do. Then you make your ask. You take it to the next level. “There are so many kids like Johnny.” In the first paragraph, you tell Johnny's story. Stories mean a lot. Russell: You have really critical points in the year. A lot happens toward the end of the year around Giving Tuesday in the back end of the year. Are there some time periods during the course of the year that you believe nonprofits are leaving money on the table? Maybe there are times to reach out that might be more effective than people pay attention to. Bill: That's another great question. It's changing. It used to be I would always tell people to do their main appeal early to mid-November because we were told the stats said the most generous week of the year is the week leading up to Thanksgiving. Everybody is starting to feel festive, but they don't have worries about the credit card bills yet. We've also heard that summer is not a great time to ask because so many people are on vacation and will miss the appeal. I tell you though, people are so connected now. With tax law changes, the end of the year may not be as significant of a time as it has been. We are finding more and more of our clients are doing oddly timed appeals. It's just starting, so they haven't built a rhythm yet. We have clients who are doing a February appeal and a July appeal. Stay tuned. I'll have a better answer in three years when we get some data back on that. I really think that if you talk with your key constituents, talk to your board and staff and key donors, you'll know. You'll know when the appropriate time is to do your ask and your information only. Remember the point about you adjust the scale to fit the budget so you can sustain the rhythm. One thing I meant to mention is it's not just the financial budget. It's the budget of your time. Here is another common mistake. We see it probably most often with social media. You get all excited. You say, “I'm going to write a blog every week.” I'm going to post it out on Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn. I don't know many executive directors who have the time to write a blog every week. If you do, more power to you. Our suggestion will be, Are you really? Let's be realistic about this. Adjust the scale to match the time budget. How much time do you have? Sustain the rhythm. We would counsel you down from once a week to the first Monday every month. If that's too much, if you can't stick with that, then once every month. Hugh: It's the regular rhythm that we heard about earlier, too. Speaking of time, we are almost at the top of the hour. Bill, you get the last word. If you have a thought or tip or challenge to give the audience. This has been a helpful interview. *Sponsor message from SynerVision Leadership Foundation* If you want to talk about how Bill's services look for you, go to Wordsprint.com. The regular mailing to your tribe makes a difference. Bill, Wordsprint.com is one of our main sponsors, so thank you for that. We talk about you often. You're leaving this interview. What is your challenge or parting thought for people? Bill: My parting thought would be it really is all about relationships. The piece of the puzzle that you or a director or a board member or your staff could do to help your organization the most is to work on those relationships and get that relationship into a database so they can get rhythmic touches. If anyone would like to chat with me about this, we do free consultations, no cost, no obligation, at Wordsprint.com. You can send me a message. I can talk in detail about your organization and things that would work for you. Our system of getting the right message to the right people does not mean you have to use us. You can use current partners. You can do it in-house yourself. It's the system that works. The right message to the right people with the right rhythm. Russell: Bill, thanks again for joining us. Thanks for all the support you give us here at SynerVision Leadership. You certainly make us look good. Folks, do yourself a favor, and have a talk with Bill and his team as to how you can grow donors, keep them, and build those relationships using the right tools by getting out there, sending the right message to the right people in the right rhythm. It needs to look good, but that is only 10%. And it will. Make sure you check out our magazine because it's a good-looking magazine. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of my friends is a new entrepreneur and asked a really good question, so Steve Larsen and I decided to tag team it for you!! On this episode Russell enlists the help of Stephen Larsen to talk to another friend of his about entrepreneurship and what he should be focusing on as he tries to figure out how to make and stick with a product. Here are some insightful things in today’s episode: Why both Russell and Stephen believe Jaime is focusing on the wrong thing as he looks to start a business. How switching his focus from himself to his customers will help him find what he should be selling. And some final advice for finding fulfillment in entrepreneurship.  So listen here as Russell and Stephen tell Jaime (and everyone else) how to best get started as an entrepreneur. ---Transcript--- What’s up, Stephen? I hope you are doing amazing. I had a question/favor for you. So at church the other day, one of my friends, Jaime, he’s a new entrepreneur was asking some questions about entrepreneurship. I asked him to vox me his main questions. And he said to me, they were really cool, he was asking basically some things about as an entrepreneur how do you pick which idea? He’s passionate about a lot of stuff. How do you pick the right idea? And then second off, how do you stick with one and see it through to the end? Anyway, I thought it was a really good question and I was going to respond back to him through voxer and I thought you know what would be more fun, is instead what if me and you tag teamed it back and forth and that way he can hear both different perspectives. And number two, I could take all the audios from our voxer messages and I could upload them as a marketing secrets podcast. That way it doesn’t just help him, it doesn’t just help me or you, but it helps the entire funnel hacker community as a whole. So my question for you is, do you want to tag team this answer with me, and turn this thing into a podcast? If the answer is yes, message me back and let me know yes, and then we gotta queue up the Marketing Secrets theme song, then I’ll send you the message and we’ll start tag teaming it and help Jaime out with his question and hopefully help a bunch of other funnel hackers out there as well. So let me know your thoughts and we’ll go from there. Stephen: Hey sounds good man, sweet idea and looking forward to it. Heck yeah, I’m in. Send over the question. Russell: Alright everybody, this is going to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to hear behind the scenes in live voxer coaching where me and Stephen are going to be tag teaming Jaime, it’s going to be a ton of fun and I’m excited to take you guys behind the scenes. With that said, I’m going to forward you, and let you listen first off to Jaime’s messages to me, and then hear me and Stephen go back and forth, I hope you enjoy it, and I’ll talk to you guys all soon. Jaime: Hey man, I guess I’ll just get right to the chase. I’m just looking for advice on entrepreneurship. My first thing that I’ve been kind of wrestling with a lot lately is that I have a ton of passion and a ton of things that intrigue me and that excite me. And the hardest thing to do has been sit down and pick one thing and stick with it, and to focus completely and solely on that. And yet, I still don’t know exactly what to do or what to pick or where to start. I feel stuck and kind of like paralyzed by all the things that do interest and when I start on one path, I feel like I get stuck and then I don’t continue onward. That in itself is probably the biggest thing that I’m dealing with right now. So I appreciate it, I look forward to hearing from you, and we’ll talk to you soon. Russell: What’s up man? Great to hear from you. Yes, I do know that feeling very, very well. Before I tell you the answer though, explain to me two or three of the businesses you’ve worked on in the past. I just want to hear in your words, because how you explain, that will tell me a lot. Alright, let me know and we’ll go from there. Jaime: Hey man, so the first thing I guess I’ve been working on for a while now, is I have an outdoor clothing brand called ReExplore Apparel and it’s at reexploreapparel.com. I’m super into the outdoors, super into outdoor living, cycling, running, hiking, camping, all that stuff. So I’m also a big fan of North Face, and Patagonia and REI and those kind of brands. So I always wanted to create a clothing brand that kind of catered to that lifestyle. So I started that a little over a year and a half ago. And we got a pretty, we got, our launch was actually pretty decent. We got over a hundred followers on Instagram in one day, which I know isn’t a ton. But I didn’t know how to launch anything at the time. So I have a buddy and I that started that. And it kind of just fell flat. It’s kind of hard to explain. But that’s the first thing, an outdoor clothing brand that I did with a buddy of mine. And then I’ve had several different podcasts over the years, that I’ve created and founded and been on, and I currently have one podcast that the one funnel away challenge inspired. So I’m doing that one. I feel really confident in it, I feel really good about it. So I’m more kind of about that. But I’ve had others in the past. You know, I’ve had three or four that kind of fell through as well. And then the last thing was, I actually had a buddy when I was living in Virginia, we were in college and we worked on a bunch of different business projects together. We had a moving company we worked on in Virginia that did fairly well for a little bit, but it didn’t really take off. And we worked on an internet café thing in Virginia in my little college town near SVU. So just that kind of stuff. I was never really like super passionate about the moving thing, or the internet café, I just wanted to start something and do something, so that’s kind of why we worked on that. So that’s kind of three ideas, or three businesses that I’ve worked on in the past, but I have a million other business ideas, I just don’t know how to like get them off the ground and get them running. I don’t know, I guess that’s kind of the best way to put it. Those are the three things I’ve worked on the most. Stephen: So the first thing I would say about this whole thing is that you gotta realize that the number of opportunities that you have on your plate has nothing with to do with how successful you’re going to be. And it sounds super simple to say that, but there was a time when I had, I mean, I had like a dozen people on a waiting list for funnels and I was like, “I’m so successful.” But nothing was getting done. So the first thing I would tell Jaime on this is that you gotta get good at saying no. And it’s one of the hardest skills of any entrepreneur, it’s super rough to do it. So that’s a skill set I feel like will just always get better and better, but truly I actually think he might be starting at the wrong question. Instead of “what do I sell? What do I sell? What do I sell?” which is kind of the question that I just beat myself up with for probably four or five years, instead of starting with the question of “What do I sell? What do I sell? What do I sell?” and being so product focused, that’s like question number three or four, I feel like. Question number one should be like, “Who do I want to sell?” and I think if he went back and started focusing instead on what his dream customer looks like, it’s really easy to be just solving their problems and they tell you what products they want you to go build for them. And the game gets way easier. One other thing that I’d probably tell him too is that like, the products, a product plan is never complete without your campaign on how you’re going to launch it. So if you’re like, “Hey, I got this idea, I got this idea, I got this idea.” Ideas are great, but ideas are nothing. They’re just like {inaudible}. So I would tell him like, hey you’ve got to sit back and think through not just what your idea is, now that you know what your dream customer is, now that you kind of have more of an idea of what products they want, because you’re not the one who buys the products, so who cares what you think, I think that no product plan is complete without a campaign that launches it. “I have an idea for a product.” That has to include the way you actually bring it to the market. So all these ideas, you’re just making products not how you’re actually going to bring it to the marketplace, and that’s just as an important step as the product itself. Russell: Yes, yes, yes, yes. If you noticed my message back to him initially, my first question I asked him was “Tell me about your businesses and I’ll tell you the answer.” And I wanted to hear how he explained. So Jaime, if you’re listening to this, what’s interesting is when you explained it you talked about yourself, you talked about your ideas, you talked about what you wanted to do and you wanted to create clothing and stuff like that. I was waiting to hear you say, “I’m obsessed with people who like to go camping.” Or “I’m obsessed with…” or “I love….whatever.” It’s the customer part that you missed, that he was talking about. And I think that’s what most entrepreneurs when they first get started do, is they’re looking at what’s the opportunity? What’s the product? What’s the service? What’s the thing I’m going to sell? As opposed to exactly what you just nailed on the head. It’s the opposite. Initial its like “Who am I going to serve? Who gets me pumped?” So you know, he talked about in there, obviously, camping and outdoor clothing and stuff like that. So I think it’s shifting it from selling that type of merchandise to like, “These are the type of people I want to serve, people that ‘this’ is what they do, and ‘this’ is what they do for fun.” And that’s the question, who, not what am I selling. It’s who am I selling? That’s the first thing. Then it’s looking at okay, now that we know who they are, then it’s like where, what’s going to be the easiest way for me to get access to those people? I remember when I was in London I was speaking at an event out in London and afterwards a guy, you know in the presentation I’d shown five or six industries that we’d built funnels in and had made a bunch of money, and he asked me afterwards, “How do you know what market to pick?” And I said, “You know what, most people don’t ever ask me that. They ask me other things but they don’t ever ask me that.” You know what’s interesting, the reason why every funnel I’ve had in the last 8, I don’t know, the last time I had failed funnels, its been a little while right. I’ve had some that have been not as good as others, obviously, but the last one I had that bombed was 7 or 8 years ago, and it’s because that was about the point I realized, I said, “I’m not going to build a funnel until I know where the traffic is first.” So I know that, like let’s just say I love survival stuff. I’d be like, ‘Okay, the survival market, that’s where I want to be at. So where do I get survival traffic?” That’d be the question, where are those ‘who’s’ at? Where can I find them at? I gotta find those people right. So I’d be looking at what email list can I write, what Facebook ad, what are the groups, what are the forums? Trying to find how easy is it going to be for me to get access to those people? We built the Neurocell supplement, I didn’t know anything about Neurocell, other than I knew that people who were going to buy it were Diabetics who had Neuropathy. So my first thing was, kind I find Neuropathy email lists? Can I find Neuropathy forums? Can I find Neuropathy groups? Can I target them on Facebook? What does that all look like? So before I ever even dreamt about how to make the supplement or even name the supplement, I was trying to figure out where are those people. And as soon as I was like, they’re right here, here, here. I was like, we’ll circle them on a map and say, ‘there they are.” Now I’m going to go create a product, and go get access to those people. So the first question is who are they and where are they at? Finding that out first. And then just going into those worlds and becoming obsessed. What else is already being sold to them? So for Neurocell I went to every one of these email lists, all the conservative republican newsletter lists. All of the health newsletters. All the ones that my dream clients were on already, I started subscribing and looking at what were the offers being sent out to them. Jaime, you initially said something, I’m going to forget it right now, but you talked about having a clothing line and stuff like that, and it’s tough because you know, I think a lot of us have dreamed of having a clothing line. And it’s funny now, looking at Clickfunnels, we have 90-something-thousand customers and we’ve tried to launch our swag store like ten times and I still can’t make it profitable.  Maybe that’s my one, my most recently failed funnel, was the swag stuff. We tried so many times, and it’s hard because swag is like, you gotta create it ahead of time, and it’s like, what sizes, you got small, medium, large, and do I do more than large or small? And upfront cost, any kind of physical product, is really, really high. So for me, when I’m going into a market, I’m not going to typically do that as the first pass. My first pass is what’s going to be something that’s easy that I can cut my teeth on? So I’d be looking at okay, let’s say it’s the outdoor/recreational space. What physical products can I be an affiliate for at first? I want to find out what my people are going to buy. So I join four or five affiliate programs of potentially where I might want to sell in the future. Maybe it’s a clothing line, maybe it’s tents, maybe it’s a camper, maybe it’s RVs, maybe it’s whatever that my dream people are going to buy, and I’m going to become an affiliate for those things before I risk any money buying inventory and product. Because that’s just upfront costs you don’t want to eat ahead of time. So it’s figuring it out and saying, “How can I build a list of customers that I can then go and send over there?” So for me, there’s a reason why I’m so obsessed with info products, because info product funnels are the best and easiest and cheapest way to get dream customers in the door. So I might do a summit of, I’m going to find top ten coolest, or I’m going to do an online summit with ten cool camping gurus. I don’t even know if they have camping gurus. They probably do right. One’s going to be someone who’s great at Dutch oven cooking, and one’s going to be someone’s who’s awesome at RVing, and one’s going to be someone’s who’s awesome at whatever. And I’d try to find people who already have a following. Who on YouTube has got the biggest RV channel? Which podcast has got the biggest like, we talk about camping all day, following. I would try to get those people to host those shows, because in a dream world they’d promote it, and worst case scenario I want to get their face on the thing, so I can promote to their people. I would do something like that initially and launch that. Now it’s like, now you’re interviewing these people you look up to anyway, which is going to give you energy and energy is the key that keeps you moving through a project right. You get a project with low energy, that’s what makes this fall out. Start having success, you lose energy, that’s why you move onto the next project, because the energy is not there anymore. So now you’re interviewing people in that market that are the best in the world to light you up and you have fun doing it anyway, and you’re building a list of subscribers in the beginning and they promote it or whatever. And Stephen, I’m going to pass it back to you here in a second about the campaign related to something like that, but use something like that, it gets a big following. And then from there you say, “Okay, I’m going to sell this clothing line over here.” And you promote it to your new customer list. Your clothing line, let’s say you do that and nobody buys clothing, and you’re like, “Huh, my people don’t like clothing. I’m not going to invest in a clothing line.” And then you’re like, “Let’s promote this RV thing over here.” So you promote the RV time share, or whatever. AirBNB RVs, that’s actually a thing. One of my friends built that company and sold it for a crap ton of money. Anyway, I digress. So that could be another one. You go out there and push that out there, and boom you sign up like 12 people and like, oh my gosh, this is the thing. And then maybe you do another one, it’s four or five different promotions as an affiliate, this is where you’re finding out what does your audience actually want? A lot of people think it’s, they’ve got a website, therefore it must be super profitable. That’s not always the case. It’s like, ‘Let’s test things as an affiliate and find out what my audience is buying on,” and then we find out, “okay they’re buying this kind of thing and now I can go deep. I’m going to go and build an RV club.” Or “I’m going to go and build a clothing line.” Or “I’m going to go and sell Dutch ovens because holy crap everyone wants to buy a Dutch oven.” And that’s where you figure out the product you’re going to develop. So that’s kind of some of my initial brain thoughts. I’m going to pass it back to you Stephen because my question for you, especially if someone doesn’t have a list right now, and let’s say they do want to go this route of let’s interview cool people in the market that you dream about going, how would you create the campaign to get that taken off the ground and to blow it up? Stephen: Yeah, I’ll say that that’s one of the biggest misconceptions that I find frequently inside the one funnel away challenge or anywhere. Any new entrepreneur, they always think like, “Hey, I need to go create something that’s completely brand new, something that’s completely prolific, something that no one’s ever seen before.” And it’s just not true. 80% of the security in entrepreneurship comes from selling something that they’re already asking for and already buying something similar to. So you’re not going in being like a me too thing, but it’s neat to see like, “Oh man, I can go in and I can still be creative, I can still have the fun innovations, but based off of what they’re already purchasing.” And then it gets way more secure. As far as campaigns that I like the most, launching something with no list, you and I have each done that several times, and I think one of the biggest things that I like from this side of it is, if I can go in and identify who’s already publishing, this is one of the biggest hacks to the game in my opinion. Let’s say Jaime’s going to go in and let’s say he’s going to sell t-shirts or whatever and it’s going to be around camping, I would go in and do exactly what you said. I would go, there’s two criteria that I would look for that would help me launch when I don’t have a list. And the first would be, number one, who’s big? Who’s already selling and has a giant list of customers? Who’s already actively purchasing from them? And I would make a big list from them, similar to what you just said. The second thing though, is I actually look to see who in there is actually publishing somehow, whether it’s an actual book that they wrote, they’re actively publishing on a podcast or something like that. What I want to do is I want to find somebody who, like I said, number one is big, but also has trained their audience to consume their content. And what’s nice about that is you get all these pre-groomed potential buyers that you didn’t search out. You just go find them. So it’s really easy, just go on iTunes or on YouTube, these other places and just start looking, “Who’s big in camping?” and you start seeing, “Whoa, look how many followers that person has, and that person and that person.” Those are the kinds of people that I go and try to grab. And I know I say it a lot, but honestly what I would do is I would start publishing. I would do the summit like you just said. I would do a seed launch. I would do, someone’s listening they don’t know what those things are, what’s neat is that it does exactly what I’m saying, you just go in and leverage the followings of other people that they spent tons of time and money to create. It takes a lot of momentum to launch something. So what I would go do is go grab the followings of people who are already primed for the pump. You get all the cards stacked in your favor. One of my absolute favorite methods of launching a product when I have no list, I’ve done it twice now, and it’s worked well, and what I did Russell, is I took your perfect webinar script, and then I wrote a webinar, but there’s 5 parts of the webinar that you talk about, so that became 5 episodes of a podcast or a blog or YouTube or whatever channel someone chooses to do. But I said something a little while ago, and I might ruffle some feathers up here a little bit. But it’s true, we’re no longer just in the information age. We’re in the attention age, where the loudest is likely to get paid, and not the person who is just the best. And that’s made some people mad as I’ve said that, but it’s so true. How many amazing products are out there that are sitting on shelves that will never be bought? You’ve got to be able to create some noise and that’s part of the product, it’s not separate from it. So anyway, when I’m creating a launch when I don’t have a list, that is one of my absolute favorite ways to go do it. Hey, let’s go see all the people who are used to listening to someone publish, and who’s already following someone who’s already big and then I’ll just feature that guy on my show, and a huge portion of their audience will come follow me, and I’ll start literally my episodes out being kind of like a tripped out sideways webinar, that actually is your perfect webinar script. So that’s exactly how I like to do it. Russell: Hey man, that’s awesome. Okay, the last thing that I’m going to add for Jaime and then if you have any final thoughts you can add them as well. The last thing I wanted to recommend because he was asking about moving from thing to thing, and what I’ve found with entrepreneur…not entrepreneurship, with anything, energy is what keeps you going. So what normally happens with a business as we get into something, we get excited, we start it and do all this stuff, and then if we don’t start getting some wins really quickly then our energy starts lulling and it gets worse and worse til eventually a month later, or two later, or six months depending on how long your attention span is, most people lose interest and they move onto the next thing. So the biggest thing I say is to keep the interest long and excited is really, its funny because I think entrepreneurs get into business because they want to make money for themselves. That’s the first thing they start looking towards, how to make money for myself. But really quickly, especially after it starts working, you find out almost instantly, that does almost nothing. I remember the first time I made a thousand and then ten thousand, 100 thousand, a million… I kept like, this will be the thing. And then it happened and you’re like, that was not as cool as I thought. And it wasn’t until I shifted from that mentality of “how do I make money?” to “Let me find people that I can serve.” And the difference in making your first million dollars or making, having somebody else have success with whatever it is you’re doing, it’s like night and day. If someone launching their first funnel makes a thousand bucks, that does more for my energy and my excitement than me making an extra million dollars. It’s insane. And I’m saying that in my space, I would say if you look at Kaelin Poulin in the weight loss space, it’s like when she has the women’s success stories of “I lost 30 pounds in the last 2 months following Kaelin’s thing.” That’s what gives you the energy to keep going. So it’s like, the quicker you can get to that the better. So the best way to do that is to start focusing, we’re talking about the customers. Who am I serving? Getting obsessed with going and joining all the people’s email lists that are publishing, listening to the podcasts, listening to the interviewers, listening to all the different stuff, because you’re going to start hearing the pain points over and over and over again, and you start listening to that. And you’re like, “Okay, I can solve that one. I can solve that one.” And you start getting into there, and you solve someone’s problem they come back to you, that’s the fire. That’s it. I tell you what, there is no financial reason for me to keep coming into Clickfunnels every single day. Literally everything I own is completely paid off, money keeps coming in, it’s like I don’t know what to do with this. It gets ridiculous at a point. But every time I get hit up on Facebook or tagged on a thing and it’s like, “Oh my gosh, it finally clicked for me, I’ve been trying this funnel thing for a year and Russell said something in the challenge or the book or whatever that clicked for me, and now I get it. I’m in this thing and boom, here’s my result.’ That’s what gets us to keep publishing and moving and waking up in the morning and coming in and dedicating time and energy and effort, is the stories. So the faster you can get to that the better, because it’s lonely. Entrepreneurship is a lonely, lonely, lonely path. I know Jaime you’ve got great support from your wife, most people don’t even have that. But even with that, it’s a lonely job, especially with the ups and the downs. So the quickest way to start building your own tribe and your own community where you’re serving them, and their wins are what fuels you. And I don’t care if you’re selling physical products, ecommerce, clothing, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Build a tribe and the tribe will give you the energy to move forward, because as soon as you shift it from it being about you to it being about them, then you’ll never leave it. I’ll never leave entrepreneurs. If I sold Clickfunnels tomorrow for a billion dollars I’d still be doing events the next day because that’s the juice, that’s what gets me moving and going. So there’s my final thoughts, Jaime. I appreciate you voxing over the questions. Stephen, any final thoughts before we make this thing into a podcast? Stephen: Yeah, you know I think it was actually you that said to me, “Hey, the definition of an entrepreneur is somebody who takes on a problem that they don’t need to take on.” In fact, I remember, I was actually talking with you too about this a few months ago. I was like, “Man, I’m making more than I’ve ever made or seen in my entire life. I’m all excited. This is so cool, so cool, so cool.” And then like a week later, not that long, seriously like 7 days later I was kind of getting depressed. I remember thinking, this is really backwards, this is really weird. And I was like, I must need to throw a bigger party this time. And then you go and you start trying to do these things that you assume having more cash means and find out really quickly that it gets really unfulfilling very quickly. So I think for me, the game entrepreneurship is really, there’s two major things it comes down to feeling a sense of fulfillment. Tony Robbins says that there’s the science of achievement and then the art of fulfillment. For me, the art of fulfillment in entrepreneurship really comes in two ways. One might sound selfish, but you know, Jaime if you’re listening to this, you’re probably seeing this in yourself, just a row of what you might consider failures. When you step back and start thinking to yourself, “How have I grown? How have I developed? How have I changed?” You know, you start realizing that the level of opportunity that your personal capacity can now match is way higher than what it was on your failure number one. Sitting with Russell when I first started with him, you know, me and Russ sitting, the you of right now, you’re totally different than you were like 3 years ago when I first sat down next to you. And you even said several times there’s no way the me of three years ago could handle the clickfunnels of today and what you’ve built now. So there’s a coin that I keep on my desk and when it comes down to the personal fulfillment side, it’s like I almost welcome the crap now that comes with stuff. The obstacle is the way. And every single time anything happens, you start to realize really quickly, holy crap, yesterday’s failure actually qualified me for tomorrows opportunities and success. So from a selfish standpoint, it might seem selfish, but the fulfillment of entrepreneurship has come to me by looking forward, kind of, to some of the garbage. Not that I’m looking to make it happen, it’ll happen on its own. But I’m like, ‘Let’s go launch the next thing. I can’t wait to grow again.” So selfishly the fulfillment has come from the growth, not the money. Second thing though, that has really helped me in the fulfillment side of this, and as you start to see exactly, and I mean Russell you’re saying it’s all about serving the people. When you start thinking, “What should I go sell next? What should I go sell next? What should I go sell next?” Then you start taking the focus from those you serve back to “How can I just make more money?” You’ll find very quickly that it’s just not, I don’t know, it actually won’t serve them as much, probably won’t sell as much, you get a little more antsy, wondering why people are so stuck up they won’t buy your thing. It’s really interesting the way it happens. If you just focus on your cause, is their problem. And entrepreneurship is taking on their problem, which you don’t need to take. And in my mind, this is like, I’ve almost treated this as kind of a sacred path. You know, I believe that the adjustments and changes in the world is going to come from this sector. Not government, not, you know, it’s going to be from those who care who really don’t need to. So welcome to the entrepreneurship brotherhood/sisterhood, the hood I should say. I really enjoyed doing this back and forth, hopefully it’s helpful.

During my live on stage Q&A, I did not expect her to say this… On today’s episode Russell shares an interview he did with Lindsey Stirling at Funnel Hacking Live 2019 and talks about what some of the things she said were and why he wasn’t expecting it. Here are some of the amazing things you will hear in this episode: Why Lindsey thought that America’s Got Talent was right about her not being good enough. Find out what Lindsey’s book is about, and how it follows a theme of her life. And see why Lindsey is also involved in Operation Underground Railroad. So listen here to find out how Lindsey Stirling got started, and how her story is similar to that of an entrepreneur. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you loved the last episode where I had, let you guys in behind the scenes to hear Lindsey Stirling at Funnel Hacking Live share some amazing wisdom and ideas and thoughts. And I’m even more excited, if that’s possible, for today’s episode. Because after we queue up the theme song and come back, I’m going to let you guys listen in behind the scenes of the live Q&A I did with her afterwards on stage. We go over a lot of cool things in there and I think you’re going to love it. But the one thing that impressed me most, I want to kind of put it from my perspective, so that when you hear it’ll hopefully have the same impact on you that it had on me. But I do know that before we brought her onstage, I knew that she was on America’s Got Talent, and I do know that she made it through a couple of rounds and then they kicked her off and said she wasn’t good enough. So I specifically I wanted to ask her that question and find out, “What did you feel? What was going on in your mind?” And what I assumed she was going to say was, “Oh yeah, they screwed me. Blah, blah, blah, whatever.” Or “They kicked me off. They didn’t know who I was and I was going to prove them all wrong.” That’s what I assumed she was going to say when she responded back to that answer. But instead what she said was so different and so much better and so much more powerful. What she said afterwards was she got off the show and she went home and she looked at herself and she realized that they were right, she wasn’t good enough yet. So because of that she went back and started practicing and working hard until she became good enough, until she became the Lindsey Stirling we had a chance to experience at Funnel Hacking Live. Such a powerful thing. I thought the message of “Screw you, I’m going to work harder anyway.” would have been powerful, but the message she left instead was a thousand times more powerful. And a lot of times the market tells us no and we have to look at ourselves and say, “You know what, the market is right sometimes. And instead of me fighting it, I’m going to go and I’m going to become good enough.” Such a powerful thing. Anyway, this interview is amazing. It’s not super long, I’ve never interviewed someone on stage before. I’m not going to lie, I was a little bit nervous. It’s only about ten minutes long, but I hope you get a lot of value out of it. Once again, if you guys can go to a Lindsey Stirling concert, support her, she’s amazing. And she was such a huge addition to this year’s Funnel Hacking Live. Alright let’s queue up the theme song and when we come back we’ll jump right into my live Q&A with Lindsey Stirling. Was that amazing or what? Lindsey: Thank you. Russell: What an awesome way to end out this extraordinary last four days together. It’s fun because we were planning, as soon as Funnel Hacking Live ends we start thinking, “What’s the plans for next year?” We were just talking about this and I was like, ‘Man, I want something to end where we can just leave on cloud 9 and everyone’s got the energy and everything. We should have a concert.” And then we’re like, “We’ve never done that before. We don’t know how that even works.” And then, {inaudible} talking, but before. We started talking about different names, who would be possible and then we said your name and everyone on my team was like, “If Lindsey Stirling could come, that would be the most amazing thing ever.’ And you guys just experienced it. Was that the most amazing thing ever? It’s so great. Lindsey: Thank you. Thanks for having us. You guys are amazing, as I’ve said. Thank you so much for your energy and it sounds like it’s been an amazing week. Russell: It’s been a lot of fun. Well, cool. I wanted to take a few minutes just to interview her because we were actually going to try and do this earlier today, but we ran out of time. So I wanted to do this just partially because I want you guys to connect with her more, and be able to follow her more, and I’m going to talk a little about that towards the end, but also so everyone understands some of her journey. Because some of her journey, I think, is very similar to a lot of your guys’ journeys as well. So I think my first question is, where did you come up with such a unique thing? There’s people who do violins, people who do dance but I’ve never heard of anyone besides you who did both. How did you come up with that? Lindsey: You know I, well a funny fact I guess about me is, a lot of people ask me, ‘what came first, the violin or the dancing?’ And the thing is I’ve played the violin my whole life. It started when I was 6. I did not start dancing until I was 23 years old, and I’m a self taught dancer. So it’s very ironic that I’ve always loved dance and I thought it was such a beautiful art form, and I wanted to make my performance as a violinist more engaging than just, I always felt so stiff. So I really started working on incorporating movement into my performances. But you know, the funny thing was is that I had this vision of being a dancing violinist, and I couldn’t dance. And I think it’s so important whenever you are starting out on a venture or a journey whether it’s an artistic one or a business one, there are things that you’re going to be like, “But I don’t know how to do that. How could I possibly be a dancing violinist if I don’t know how to dance?” Well, I started step by step by step in a very literal sense, teaching myself very simple choreography that just started with like a look and a wink and a little shoulder. You know, just very minimal movements, and now I can literally do backbends while I play. I can spin, I can learn choreography and it all was just step by step and because I had such a clear vision and I was so determined. You know, sometimes the less you know in a way, the better it is. I don’t think I realized how difficult it would be, so I naively just went into it with everything I had and worked tirelessly until I could do it. Russell: That’s amazing. Very cool. So my next question is, before Crystalized blew up for you and you’re going through I’m sure practicing and doing things and videos and all sorts of stuff, and things weren’t blowing up for you, first off how long was that period of time for you? And second off, what was it that kept you going, like moving forward during that time as opposed to just throwing it in and walking away from it all? Lindsey: Yeah, I probably started to pursue and write my own music and make this art of dancing and playing and I probably worked at that for 2 years before I even discovered YouTube. And during that time I had some, I had a lot of times I kind of fell on my face, sometimes literally, sometimes more figuratively speaking. One of which was extremely public, it was in front of millions of people on America’s Got Talent. I was, my little artistic heart was absolutely broken on that show. I felt like my spirit was just broken at what I thought was going, I thought this was going to be the biggest moment of my life and what changed everything. And I ended up getting absolutely publicly humiliated and told in front millions of people on live tv that I sounded like strangled rats when I played the violin. I was told I didn’t have what it took and I should try something else, I would never make it. And that was one of the hardest things to get over because I was literally terrified to step on a stage again after that. I was like, “I just don’t know if I can face that kind of humiliation.” It was in the back of my mind every time I would go to step on a stage, “I am probably going to fail.” But I took a little break from it just to re-gather my confidence again and to work on my craft. And I realized, I think the most important thing about that story, which took me years to realize, is that they told me, “You’re not good enough.” And people now always are like, “Oh America’s Got Talent, they were so wrong about you. They missed this diamond in the rough.” And looking back on it, no, they actually were right. I wasn’t good enough, but the most important word was left out and it said, “I wasn’t good enough yet.” I had literally just invented this idea of dancing and playing a violin and I hadn’t put in the time yet. I wasn’t good enough. But I just began, once I realized that I’m just not good enough yet, I worked for the next year and a half honing my craft and getting good enough so that no one would ever be able to say that again, and it wouldn’t be true. And I also think there’s this inner gut that guides you, and sometimes you get to a point, and I’ve done this in different ventures, where I realize this isn’t a path that I should pursue anymore. I think this door is closed and it’s time to go to a different one. But this door, I knew that it would open. I just felt it. And it was, I just need to keep going, because that inner compass will never lead you astray. And to me, that’s God.  You can call it whatever you want, whether it’s the universe talking to you and guiding you, but I do believe there is something so much greater than ourselves that guides us and gives us inspiration and gives us that courage to press forward. I’m spinning. Russell: I know, me too. They’re all spinning up here. So for those who want to know more about you, I know in fact, my mom’s down here, my mom in the middle, she’s like, ‘Have you read her book yet?” Will you tell everyone about your book, so if people want to learn more about you and your life and everything. I’d love for you to tell them about that and have them all go buy the book tonight. Lindsey: There you go. My book is called The Only Pirate at the Party. It’s very thematic of a theme in my life, where it’s based off a true story where I went to a birthday party that when I first moved to LA, and it was a Peter Pan themed birthday party and I was really excited. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, I have a pirate costume. This is perfect. I’m going to make so many friends.” And it was that mean girls moment where I walk into the party and it was a regular party. Nobody was dressed up and I was a full blown pirate. And I was like, I had the hat, I had a tin foil hook I made so I was Captain Hook. And there was like a Tinkerbell cake, and that was the only thing that let you know maybe this was a themed party. And I remember there was that moment of like, no one’s really seen me yet. No one really knows me, I could get in my car and go home and no one’s the wiser, or I could just own it and go into the freaking party and try to make some friends. And I decided to go in and make some friends, and kind of laugh about my, and I met a lot of people because I was the only pirate at the party. But it was such a like, you know what, this seems like it’s a little bit of a theme of my life and that’s why the book has all these stories. It’s not like any of us walk through life trying to be like, ‘I’m different. I’m the only pirate.” You know, but I think we’re all different. We are all so unique and those are the things that make us wonderful, they’re the things to be celebrated. The joys, the hardships and it all leads into our story. So that’s what my book talks about. It talks about my experiences going through an eating disorder and depression and America’s Got Talent and all these times when I hit the bottom. And through my own gifts and uniqueness decided it’s time to get back up again. Russell: Awesome. Everyone go on Amazon and get that today. Alright, so my last question for you is revolving around Operation Underground Railroad. So I know you’ve been involved for a long time with them as well, and you had a chance to watch the documentary. So last year, at this event in Orlando was the first time we introduced this world to Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad. We watched the first documentary, we raised just over a million dollars during that event, which is insane and amazing. And then Tim actually flew from our event to Haiti to pick up his kids and then flew back, which was so cool. So I know you’ve been involved with them for a long time, but I’d love to hear some of your thoughts about what they’re doing and the importance of it and kind of how you’re getting involved now as well. Lindsey: You know, I don’t, like I get chills just thinking about it. The documentary was so, I don’t think there was a dry eye in the room. It’s I think what they are fighting is the greatest evil that could possibly happen. It’s the greatest evil, it’s the plague of our time. And I don’t think there is anything that is more important than freeing people from slavery. And Tim’s book is amazing. Slave Stealer’s if you haven’t read it, it’s on audible, you can listen to it as you drive around. But it’s so, you know I’ve written a lot of music based off of my experience of going through anorexia and depression and I do a lot of these metaphorical images and music videos about being trapped. And they were to represent a time when I was literally trapped like a prisoner inside my own mind, and that was really, really hard. But it just makes me think like my next mission, I’ve told that story now, my next mission is to talk about how people can literally be trapped by somebody else. And you know what, I think the greatest thing about having a voice and having success is that then you get to pick, you get to tell your story, through my book, through my music, through my art, but then I also get the opportunity to help other people tell their stories. And each one of you, as you grow your business and your brands and whatever it is, this is giving you not only a platform for the things you’re passionate about, and the things you work so hard for, but it’s giving you a platform to share whatever message you are passionate about. And I’m super passionate about Operation Underground Railroad. I’m so excited, I was so excited to hear that they were a part of this event and that you guys support them. Anyways, I can’t think of a greater cause. Russell: Awesome. Thank you.

Behind the scenes conversation with a bunch of young entrepreneurs. On today’s episode, Russell talks to a class of young entrepreneurs about what it’s like to start and run your own business. Here are some of the fun things in today’s episode: How he got started with his first business of potato guns! He talks about what are the hardest, easiest, and best parts of being an entrepreneur. They discuss how risk is like riding a teeter-totter on a cliff… So listen here to enjoy this special, fun episode where Russell talks to kids about entrepreneurship. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. I’ve got a really fun special episode for you today. Recently I had someone in our community contact us and say “Hey, we run a school with kids from (I don’t even know how young), from first grade up to sixth grade.” I think the oldest kids were about 12 years old. Anyway, they said, “We’d love to have these kids come over and ask you questions about your company, about being an entrepreneur and all that kind of stuff.” So I thought it’d be really, really fun, so we had them come over this last week. And they’d been studying entrepreneurship and business and they were doing a bunch of things, and they had to make a pitch deck to pitch to investors, they were going that night to actually go sell stuff. So this little cute entrepreneurial classroom of kids came here to the Clickfunnels offices, and I thought, you know I’m going to record this just in case anything cool comes out of it. And it turned out to be really, really fun. This is an episode that if you have kids, you should probably pull your kids in and listen with them. I think you’ll hear some new stories and get some ideas whether or not you have kids or not. But this is definitely a presentation geared towards children and getting them excited about entrepreneurship and kind of telling them some stories about how I built my company. It was funny, we had this little microphone box you can throw to them, and they were all fighting over it, they wanted to hear their voice. So you’ll hear a little bit of that. I had my brother try to edit out any of the long pauses, or the awkward things. So hopefully it’s listenable to listen to everything. And it’s kind of fun, I think 8 or 9 kids asked the exact same question, so I had to re-answer it different ways every single time. So hopefully you guys catch that in there. One of the girls talked about entrepreneurship, I asked who wants to be an entrepreneur, and she’s like, “No.” and I’m like, “Why not?” and she’s like, “It’s kind of like a teeter totter, where you’re off a cliff where either you fall of a cliff and you die, or you don’t.” or something like that. And I was, “That is the best explanation of entrepreneurship I’ve ever heard.” Anyway, this is just a fun episode I wanted to post here for you guys. I hope you enjoy it. Again, if you have kids, maybe have them listen in as well. And with that said, I will queue up the theme song and I hope you guys enjoy this Q&A session from the kids group that came into our office the other day. What’s up guys? How are you guys doing? Kids: Good. Russell: Welcome to Clickfunnels. We’re excited to have you guys here. Why do what? Kid: Why do you sound like you have a microphone? Russell: Because I have a microphone. Check this out, I have a microphone here. This is called the catch box, you hold it like this and you talk into it. I wanted to this so that way when we ask questions we can make sure we hear everything. Because it’s kind of fun, and sometimes this room gets loud because we have all these super heroes everywhere that sometimes mess things up. So we’re going to practice this to make sure you guys can make this work. So who wants to tell me their name? Kid: My name’s Garrett. Kid2: My name is Paxton. Kid3: My name’s Brynn. Kid4: My name’s Jack. Kid5: My name’s Liam. Russell: Alright, so my first question for you guys is do you guys know what my name is? Kids: No. Russell: What’s my name? Do you want to catch it? Kid: Jack! It’s Clickfunnels. Kid2: Russell. Russell: You’re right, good job. Okay, thank you. Russell. I am one of the founders of Clickfunnels, which is where you guys are at today. So I heard you guys have been learning about entrepreneurship, is that true? Kids: Yes. Russell: How many of you guys want to be entrepreneurs when you grow up. Kid: No thanks. Russell: No thanks. How come, I want to know why you don’t want to. Kid: The reason I don’t want to be an entrepreneur is well, first of all, I’m afraid of messing up and I don’t like the risk that I’m taking. Russell: Who has a cool thing about being an entrepreneur? Kid: One cool thing is that you can be almost anything that isn’t already a corporation. You could be like a UT bridge kind of entrepreneur. Like Clickfunnels is made by entrepreneurs and it’s made for entrepreneurs as well. Stuff like that. Russell: Okay, so I’m going to tell you guys my story real quick about how I became an entrepreneur, and then I’ll let you guys ask questions because I heard you guys had some good questions. So I didn’t know I was going to be an entrepreneur my whole life, but when I was…how old are you guys? Kid: 6 Kid2: 9 Kids: crosstalk Russell: Who’s the oldest? Kid: 6 to 12 Russell: How old are you? Kid: 12 Russell: 12 okay. So I was about your age, I was about 12 or 13 years old and I didn’t know what I was going to be when I grew up. I had no idea. I remember I was watching TV one night, and late at night there’s these things called infomercials. Any of you guys ever seen an infomercial before? Where they try to sell stuff? And there was this guy on the infomercial, he was selling this book about how to make money in the newspapers, and I was like, that is the coolest thing in the world. And he was selling, you had to pay $40 to buy this kit, and I did not have $40, so I begged my dad for money and he said, “No.” He said, “If you want to have that money, you have to earn it.” So I went out and mowed lawns for a whole month to earn $40 and then I took that and bought this kit on TV that taught me how to make money with newspapers, which was kind of cool. So that’s when I first started learning, I was about your age when I started learning about it, so you guys are in a good spot. So then fast forward to when I was in college. I was going to school and I didn’t know what I wanted to be. I liked to wrestle, do we have any wrestlers in here? What? We got a couple of wrestlers. So I’m a wrestler, so I was wrestling in high school and I loved it and then I started wrestling in college. I came to Boise State to wrestle, and then I met my beautiful wife and I fell in love with her and I wanted to marry her. But guess what you have when you get married? Do you know what this means? Kids: Money. Russell: Money. And I didn’t have any money, I was completely broke. I didn’t even have a job. And I was like, I gotta do something or else I’m going to be in big trouble and my wife’s not going to have a house to live under if I’m going to marry her. So I tried to figure out how to make money, but I couldn’t get a job because I was wrestling. So I gotta figure out a different way to do this. So I thought, you know I could do, I could quit wrestling, but I love wrestling. I was like maybe I could become an entrepreneur and try to sell something of my own. And I didn’t know what to do. So I started trying to learn how to do, how to make money. I was trying to think what my first big idea was going to be. And I tried a whole bunch of things, and guess what, none of them worked. I tried thing after thing to make money and none of them worked, and then one day, one of my friends said, “Russell, do you want to make a potato gun?” and I was like, “What’s a potato gun?” How many people here know what a potato gun is? Kids (inaudible) Russell: So this is a potato gun, and I didn’t even know what it was. I was like, “What’s a potato gun?” and he said, “What a potato gun is, you make it out of sprinkler pipes and you get a potato and put it here and you jam it, so a potato would be right here, and you get a broom and push it down so it pushes it all the way down to right here. And then over here there’s a big hole. So you spray hairspray in here, and you put a cap over the top of it, and then guess what happens?” Kid: It goes boom. Russell: Inside of here there’s a whole bunch of fuel and there’s a potato stuck right here. So in the cap, and I couldn’t find the cap this morning because I think somebody stole it, or somebody just misplaced it, there’s a little igniter, and if you click the button on the igniter it makes a little spark inside of this hole right here, and that spark lights the hairspray on fire. And the hairspray is like, ‘Ugh” and it wants to explode, but it can’t. But guess what it does? It takes the potato right here and goes, pfft, shoots it out and it goes like a hundred yards. How many of you guys know how far a hundred yards is? Have you ever been to a football game before? A hundred yards is the whole football field. It shoots it all the way across a whole football field. Is that crazy? So he told me that, my friend told me that. And I was like, “That sounds like so much fun. Let’s do that.” So we went and we didn’t know how to make it though. So we went on Google and typed in “how to make a potato gun, and then people had different instructions, “This is how you cut the pipe” and “This is how you glue it together” and “You gotta buy pipes this size and this size and this and this.” And we read all the instructions about how to make it, and then we went home that night and we started making it. And we had so much fun. It took us three or four days to build our first potato gun, and when it was done we went out by the airport and we started shooting potatoes, and it was so much fun. But then, guess what happened? We were shooting potatoes and all the sudden this big huge jeep, that had camouflage on it, started coming toward us. And I was like, “What’s going on?” and they drove all the way up and out came this big, huge army guy, with a big old mustache. And he walks over, “What are you guys doing?” I’m like, “We’re shooting potatoes.” And he’s like, because we were behind the airport, he said, “You’re on government land. You cannot be shooting things back here.” And I thought I was going to go to jail. I was so scared. I was like, “Ah, okay. Okay.” And he’s like, “How does that thing work?” So I kind of told him, and he’s like, “It doesn’t go that far.” I’m like, “No, it really does.” And he’s like, “Prove it.” I’m like, “Really?” so he said, “Yeah.” So he started shooting guns with me, this big police man who was going to arrest me. And he shot like 5 or 6 potatoes with me, and then he’s like, “Okay, you can’t shoot back here or I’ll have to put you in jail. So go shoot them out in the forest or something.” And he let us go and I was like, “Oh good, I thought I was going to go to jail.” So luckily I didn’t. So then, we had so much fun making these, they were so much. The next day I went back to school…yeah? Kid: Why didn’t he arrest you for having an illegal and dangerous weapon? Russell: That’s a good question. He said, “How come he didn’t arrest you for having an illegal and dangerous weapon?” I think it’s because he thought it was kind of cool. It could have been worse. Anyway, luckily he didn’t. I don’t know why, but I’m super grateful he didn’t arrest me. So anyway, I went back to school on the next Monday and I was sitting there thinking, “What should my business be? What should my business be?” and all the sudden, boom, the light bulb went off in my head. Have you guys ever had that before? You have an idea? I was like, “What if there’s more people besides me that want to make a potato gun? What if I’m not the only person.” And I thought, I’m going to see if there’s more people besides me. So on the internet, what’s cool is it will show you how many people are typing in different searches in Google. And guess how many people were looking for potato gun plans that month? Kid: 200,000 Russell: Ooh, I wish. Kids: crosstalk Russell: 500, 100. Kids: Crosstalk Russell: So if you look at the entire world, around the whole world, there were 18,000 people searching for how to make potato guns and nobody was selling a product on how to make potato guns. I was like, “What if I made a product on how to make potato guns? I could make some money. This would be the coolest thing in the world, and I could get arrested.” So I had the idea. So then I called my friend up, his name is Nate. I said, “Nate, we’re going to make a product teaching people how to make potato guns.” And he said, “How do you do that?” and I said, “I don’t know. I’ve never done it before, but let’s figure it out.” So we borrowed a video camera from somebody and then we drove down to Home Depot, maybe it was Lowes, I can’t remember. Home Depot or Lowes, and we walked to the sprinkler isle, and I had all the sprinkler pipes and I recorded a video and said, “When you buy the sprinklers, there’s a secret, you have to make sure that the PSI is right. So if you look on here it talks about the Pounds per Square this thing can handle.” Anyway I summarized how much that is, how much these are, and what sizes. So we made a video of us buying all the pieces of the gun. Then we drove to my wife’s work, where they had a little workshop, and we made a video us, recording gluing the thing together and making the actual potato gun. Then we drove and filmed us at school writing out all the different formulas and how, you know, all the different plans on how to make potato guns. And we took all those different things and we put it on these videos and then we made a dvd. And this was my very first dvd, it’s called HowToMakeAPotatoGun.com. And this dvd taught people how to make a potato gun, just like that. So this was my very first product ever made, and there’s the dvd inside. Do you guys even know what dvd’s are? You’ve seen those before. Kids: Yeah. Russell: I know, it’s a pain. It gets scratched, they have to rebuy a new one, which is good for me. Kid: Just put a bandaid on it. Russell: I don’t think you can put a bandaid on a dvd, but that is a good idea. Alright, so this was my very first dvd, and I was so excited, I’m like, “Now what do I do? How do I sell it?” and I didn’t know how to sell it. So I went and got this website, howtomakeapotatogun.com and then I put up a webpage to sell it. And it had a little picture of the dvd. I said, “Here’s a dvd teaching people how to make potato guns, just like the one that I just made. And I started buying ads. So when somebody would go to google and type in “How to make a potato gun.” They would see my ad and see, “Do you want to learn how to make a potato gun? Click here.” And they’d click on my ad, come to my webpage, and a lot of them started buying this dvd for like $27, they’d buy the dvd. And that’s how I got started as an entrepreneur, I started selling this dvd. I sold a whole bunch of them for a while, and that was my very first product. Any questions about that at all? Kid: What was the hardest part about making it? Russell: Ooh, good question. The hardest part about making it is I didn’t know how to edit videos. So we recorded them on this camera, and then I didn’t know what to do. So I had to read books about how you get them from the video camera onto the computer. So then we got them on the computer. And it’s like, how do you turn it into a dvd? I didn’t know how to do that. So then we had to edit the thing, then we had to glue it together, put it together, then we had to burn it on dvd. So learning how to actually make the dvd was the hardest thing for me. Kid: What was the most difficult thing about making your whole business? Russell: The most difficult thing about making my whole business was probably believing it was going to work. A lot of times… Kid: It seems so fun. Russell: A lot of times we have an idea but we’re like, is that really gonna work? We have to do all this work, should I do it or not? So the hardest part is just believing it will actually work the very first time. Kid: And how did you make it? Russell: Alright, who else has got a question? Kid: What was the easiest part about making your business? Russell: The easiest part, man, there’s not a lot of easy parts. There’s a lot of hard parts. The easiest part was probably after it started working. Because there’s a lot of hard work to get it started, then when it started working, then guess what? The webpage was there, my ads were there, and I’d go to school every day, I’d go to wrestling practice, and while I was goofing off and having fun, people were going to Google, type it in, click on the ad and they would buy. So even when I was sleeping at night, people started paying me money. So I was making money in the morning, at night, when I was on vacation, the money kept coming in. So that was the best part. After all the hard work was done, then it just started making money whether I was there or not. Kid: What, how much money did you make every day? Russell: Good question. So this product, this was my very first one, so it never made me tons of money. But it was making probably between 25 and 50 dollars a day. But for me, how many of you guys think that $50 a day would be amazing. So it was tons. When I was going to college I was like, $50 a day is a lot of money for me. It was really, really cool. Good question. Kid: My name is Paxton. Russell: Thanks Paxton, you’re awesome. Kid: What inspired you to make the potato gun? Russell: Ooh, good question. So when I was trying to figure out what to make, I was looking around and I saw a lot of other people selling things. So I was looking at what’s everyone doing? And I had a friend, one friend who was making a product teaching people how to do baby sign language. So I was like, that’s kind of cool. Because she was really good at teaching babies sign language. I had another friend that was teaching people how to do hair bows. They’d make hair bows, any girls have hair bows? They’d make these really cool hair bows, and they had a dvd teaching that. So I saw three or four things, I saw all these people who were really good at something, they made a dvd teaching it, and I was like, “I’m not good at anything. What could I do?” and then when I made that potato gun I was like, “What if that’s my thing? What if I make potato guns?” So that was my very first, that’s how I got the inspiration. Kid: What was your biggest regret? Russell: My biggest regret…hm. Probably my biggest regret is I didn’t start sooner. I waited for like 2 years before I made my first product. I was thinking about it, talking about it, I was scared. So I didn’t do it. I wish I would have started faster, because I would have started having success faster. Kid: How much money did you make every year? Russell: Every year? Well the first year I didn’t make very much money. I made maybe $10,000. And then it started getting bigger and then one year I made a million dollars in a year, which was so cool. And then it got bigger, and then Clickfunnels, this company now, I’ll tell you what we do in a minute, but Clickfunnels did over a hundred million dollars last year. What would you guys buy with that? Just kidding. Kid: I’d buy the company. Russell: You’d buy the company. Kid: What was your favorite part? Russell: My favorite part? I love when somebody buys your product and then they use it, and they have success, that’s the best. So someone who’d buy it, they’d make a potato gun and they’d send me a picture, “Look at my potato gun that I made?” Yes, that’s awesome. I helped them do it. Kid: How many did you sell in the first week or month of you releasing it. Russell: Good question. First week, I don’t think I sold any. First month, I probably sold 5 or 6. And then it got to the point where I was selling about one a day. So probably 30 a month. One or two a day was kind of average. Kid: Do you have any advice for people who want to be an entrepreneur or want to get what they’re doing out there. Like if you’re streaming and stuff. Russell: Yes, great question. Can I tell you a story about that? I have a friend, his name is Jacob Hiller and when he was born he wanted to be able to dunk a basketball. How many of you guys here can dunk a basketball? Kid: In a baby. Russell: How many guys dunk on a ten foot hoop? It’s hard right. I still can’t do it either. I’m not good enough. But he wanted to be able to dunk that. He loved basketball, but he couldn’t quite dunk it. He said his arms were a little bit shorter, so he couldn’t ever dunk. So he said, “I want to figure out..” He set a goal, he said, “My goal, I want to become someone who can dunk a basketball. How do I do that? I can’t dunk right now. I have to learn some exercises.” So he stared reading books and started studying, how can I increase my vertical. That’s what they call it, you’re vertical, how high you can jump. So he started learning, started watching videos, and reading books, and then that’s how he started. Then he started learning some stuff and it started helping him. And he thought, “I’m going to start a YouTube channel teaching people what I’m learning.” So he started this YouTube channel, and in the YouTube channel he would learn something. So he would learn, if you do a certain exercise it will make you jump higher. So he’d show people how to do the exercise and posted a video on that. Then he’d post another video learning other ways to increase your vertical. And he had a whole bunch of videos and started posting them on YouTube because he was loving it. He was learning it and then he would share it as he was learning what he was learning. And then one day he ended up having about 10,000 people who were following him on YouTube, and he’s like, “This is so cool. I have all these followers that are following me and I don’t know what to do with it.” So he asked those guys, “What do you guys want me to, what can I do?” and someone said, “I wish you’d put together a book that would teach me all the different ways you learned how to jump.” And he’s like, “Okay, that’s kind of cool. I could do that.” So he wrote an ebook. Do you guys know what an ebook is? Kid: Yeah, it’s like a book that’s online and it’s really cool. Russell: Yeah. So he wrote his first ebook and all it was, was a whole bunch of different ways that he used to jump higher. So he’d show, “Here I tried this exercise and how I did it.” And then “This exercise” and he showed like a hundred different ways to jump higher and he put it together and he called the book The Jump Manual, teaching people how to jump higher. So he got that all done, he started being excited about something, then he started talking about it every single day until he got a lot of people following him, then he came out with his very first product, which was an ebook. I think he sells the ebook for $37, and he makes 3 or 4 thousand dollars a day, every single day, selling that book. But what’s crazy, he did that while he was in college, then he met his wife and they fell in love and got married, and they said, “Where should we move to?” and he said, “Our business is on the internet, we don’t have to live anywhere.” And they said, “What if we just picked somewhere really cool.” So his wife a globe out, a big globe. You guys know the big globes? Kid: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Russell: And they spun it like this, and said, “Ready go.” And they stopped it and it was like, “Kenya.” And they’re like, “Let’s move to Kenya.” So they got in a plane, packed up all their suitcases, they didn’t have a house yet, and they flew to Kenya, and then in Kenya they found out there’s warriors called the Maasai warriors. Have you ever heard of them before? Kid: No. Russell: Well, guess what they’re famous for? Jumping. They’re famous for jumping. They go out in these plains, in the desert and they jump. So they got to Kenya and he’s like, “There’s these guys that are great at jumping.” So he got his video camera out and said, “Teach me how to jump better.” And these warriors in the middle of the desert in Africa taught him how jump higher and he filmed it all and posted those videos online like, “I learned how to, these cool jumping tricks from these guys.” And he said, “If you like these you should go buy my book.” And more people bought his book. So he lived there in Kenya for 3 years, excuse me, 3 months and the whole time they were there people were buying his book on the internet, so he didn’t have a job, he was just living and having fun. And 3 months later they said, “Let’s move. Where should we move to? I don’t know.” So he got the globe out again, they spun it, “Here.” And it was like the Great Wall of China. They’re like, “We’re moving to China.” So they flew to China and they got to China and they’re like, “What should we do in China.” And they said, “Well what kind of exercises can we do on the great wall of china? We can sit against the wall, I can do jumps on the wall.” So they made videos of him doing all sorts of exercises on the great wall of china, and put those on YouTube and then more people bought his book. And then 3 months later they spun the globe again and picked a new spot. And they’ve been doing that now for like 8 years. They have not had a house for 8 years. Every three months they pick a new place around the world and they fly there and live there, and their internet business, people keep buying his ebook while he’s traveling the world having a good time. Is that cool? Kid: And another question, is buying ads for your video even worth it, in your opinion? Russell: Definitely. We spend about $750,000 a month buying ads. So we spend a lot of money because it’s the fastest way to get to people. There’s free ways you can do it, but it takes a lot longer. If you can buy ads, it speeds up the process a lot. Kid: But for smaller YouTubers who are trying to get out there. Russell: Yeah, so it’s good to buy ads when you have a product to sell. Because if you’re just buying ads to grow your channel, it’s hard because you’re not making any money and you’re just spending money. But if you have a YouTube channel and you’re selling something on the channel, then it makes sense to buy as long as you make more money than you’re spending. That’s all we’re looking at. I want to make sure that if I spend $1 I want to make $2. And you just kind of watch that really close. Good questions. Kid: What was the best part after you made your business? Russell: The best part is, let’s see, there’s been a lot of really, really cool parts. But I think my best part is there’s this group, have you ever heard of Operation Underground Railroad? Have you heard of it? You think so. Do you guys know what the Underground Railroad is? Did you learn about that yet in school? What’s the underground Railroad? Kid: It’s how slaves get away from their owners. Russell: Yes, the Underground Railroad, how they freed slaves back in the day. So, Operation Underground Railroad is an organization, it's called a charity, and they help save people who are enslaved. Did you know there are still people in slavery? There are little kids that get kidnapped that are put in slavery, and they think there's over 2 million kids right now that are in slavery all around the world. It's really sad. So, there's this group and they go in and they try and save these little kids. So, the most exciting thing so far is the last two years a in a row we helped raise money for Operation Underground Railroad. We raised over $2 million for them which is enough money to save almost 1,000 kids from slavery. So, of everything we've done, that's the thing that's the coolest for me. Kid: How did you get the idea of ClickFunnels? Russell: Ooh, good question. That's a great question. Ken, so after I made my potato gun… So, I made my potato gun and we were selling this, right, and then what happened is I wanted to figure out how do you make more money. I was just selling DVD, but I wanted to make more money. So, I had a friend and he said, what you need to do is you need to add an upsell. Do you guys know what an upsell is? Kid: No. Russell: Who's ever been to McDonald's before? So, you go to McDonald's and if your mom or dad says, hey, I want to order a Big Mac. Then what does the guy say at the drive-through, do you know? Goes, a Big Mac, do you want a fries and drink with that? You heard him say that before? Kids: Yes. No. Russell: That's called an upsell. Kid: I don't go to McDonald's. Russell: Good, it's bad for you. That food kills you. Anyway, but if you go, that's called an upsell. So, my friend said you should have upsells for this. I said, what does that even mean? He said, well, when someone buys potato gun DVD, what's the next thing they need? I said, well, they have to go to Home Depot and they have to buy all the pipes and all the stuff and the glue. He said, what if you put those together in a kit and then just sold the kit, and you send the kit out to people? I said, that's a cool idea. So, I found somebody to make these kits and they make a potato gun kit. Had all the pipes and everything, all the glue, everything. So, what we did was somebody would buy the DVD from me and they'd say, I want the DVD. Then the next page would say, cool, you bought the DVD, we're going to send it to you. Do you want us to put one of these kits in the mail that way you don't have to buy the pipes, you can just glue them together? Out of every single person who bought the DVD, for every three people got the DVD, one person would buy the kit right there. So, that's what we call a funnel. A funnel is where you take people through a sales process. Someone buys a DVD, and then someone buys the kit. So, that's kind of what a funnel is. I know it's kind of confusing, but that is what a funnel was. So, we did it for my own business. I did it for a lot of other people's businesses, and then one day I met this guy named Todd. He's my business partner in ClickFunnels. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia, though. You guys know where Atlanta is? Couple of you guys. So, he lives in Atlanta, way over there, and he said, what if we build software that makes it super easy for people to make websites and funnels the way that you do. So, he built the software and we decided to call it ClickFunnels. So, what we do is we help entrepreneurs and we teach them about stuff like this. Teach them how to start their own businesses and then they use ClickFunnels to build-out their web pages and their funnels. So, that's how we got the idea for ClickFunnels. And you guys know what a Funnel Hacker is on your shirt? Kid: No. Russell: A Funnel Hacker is someone who uses ClickFunnels. So, you guys are all Funnel Hackers now. So, that means you are a part of our tribe. So, all of our people they say, I'm a Funnel Hacker. Kid: What was your most exciting part of starting your business? Russell: Most exciting? So, there's this guy, he's 6'7". You know how tall that is? It's like this tall. His head's like this big, and he's super-famous. His names is Tony Robbins. Any of you guys ever heard of Tony Robbins before? Kid: Yeah. Russell: You guys have? Kids: crosstalk Russell: He could be. Anyway, Tony Robbins is cool. He was someone I saw him in movies, on TV, and he was super-famous. I always thought he was awesome. So, about 10 years ago, I got to meet him, and then he had me fly out to Fiji. You guys know where Fiji is? You do? Fiji's awesome. He owns a resort in Fiji, so I flew to Fiji and I got to speak at his seminar. Then he spoke at my seminar which was super cool, and then recently we became business partners. So, I got to be friends with somebody who was my hero for a long time, and I even became friends and business partners with him. So, that's probably the most exciting to be able to hang out with a giant, he's literally a giant. He is so cool. Kid: What was the most expensive part of your business? Russell: So, for ClickFunnels there's over 300 people that work here. Not all of them in this office, but it costs us a few million dollars a month to pay everybody who works here. So, that's by far the most expensive is all of the people. Okay. But they are amazing people, so we love it. Kid: What was the most fun part? Russell: Ooh, the most fun part? Let's see. I think the very first time I made my very first sale, that was so fun because I tried to sell something, nobody bought it. Then very first time somebody gave me money, I made $20. Someone bought something on the internet from me, I made $20. I was so excited that I called my wife up, I said, we made $20. She said, that's not very much money. I said, I know, but it's the very first time I made money on the internet. So, we went out to dinner and spent that $20 on dinner and a movie. And then guess what? Kid: What? Russell: The next day, the person who paid the $20, he asked for a refund and I had to give it back. But it was the very first one, so it was still exciting. Kid: Can we watch your potato gun video? Russell: Oh, I can give one to your teachers, if they want to make a whole class on potato guns, I don't think… But that's up to them, not to me. Kids: crosstalk Russell: That would be a cool class in school, but I think Potato Gun 101. Yes? Kid: Like, on the commercials it cost a lot of money. Have you ever been in debt from the commercials? Russell: Mm-hmm, yeah, a couple of times we tried to... A couple of times we did commercials and they didn't make any money, and we got in some debt. But we were able to pay it off. What happens a lot of times, a lot of times you'll do a lot of different commercials or ads, and sometimes some of them work and some don't work, but hopefully you get more that work than don't work. And the other thing is if you put a commercial on TV, it costs a lot of money, but if you put a commercial on Facebook, it doesn't cost very much money. Kid: What made you come up with the name ClickFunnels? What's the inspiration for that? Russell: Great question. So, we had this other company that we tried to start back in the day called ClickFusion. I was thinking that's a cool name. I don't know why we thought it was kind of cool, but guess what? That business failed three times. It kept failing, and so when we started the idea for ClickFunnels, Todd, who is my business partner, I said we should call it ClickFusion. He's like, ClickFusion always fails. It's bad luck. We should call it something different. Like what should we call it? Like Click Waffles, Waffle Funnels, Funnel Ice Cream, Funnel Cake, Funnel, and then all of a sudden he said, ClickFunnels. I was like, ooh, that sounds cool. Let's see if we could buy it, and nobody owned it. So, we're like, yes, so we bought ClickFunnels. Kid: What do you sell besides weapons of death by potato? Russell: So, besides weapon of death by potatoes? So, I've written some books. Want to see? So, I've written these books. I wrote this book right here called Expert Secrets. I wrote a book called DotComSecrets. So, I sell these books. We also do seminars where we have entrepreneurs from all around the world. They fly actually here to Boise sometimes. We actually, last week we had people here from all around the whole world and they pay us to teach them how to build funnels, and then we also sell ClickFunnels as software. So, most of our money comes from ClickFunnels from the software. We use these as coaching people on how to build businesses or it's the ClickFunnels software. That's where most of the money comes from now. Kid: Where were you originally from? Russell: I grew up in Utah. Kid: What? Russell: Yep, I grew up in Utah and then I actually, I told you I was a wrestler, remember? So, I wrestled, then I wrestled at BYU, and then BYU dropped the wrestling program, so I was like where should I got to wrestle? And Boise State had a program, so I moved to Boise, and I've been here ever since. Kid: Is it hard or easy to own your company? Russell: Ooh, good question. Some days it's really easy because I wake in the morning and I'm like, I can do whatever I want. I don't have to wake up. But some days it's really, really hard. Some days you wake up and it's like, for me I have 300 people to work for me, so if we don't make money, then where are they going to get paid from? And somebody and they have all their kids. Sometimes it's kind of a stressful thing to manage a lot of people who rely on us. So, some days it's really nice. I go on vacation for a week and not worry about it, or a couple of weeks, but some days it's really stressful. So, that's with entrepreneurship there's really good things and really scary things at the same time. Kid: Why is your logo like a tablet with gears? Russell: Oh, good question. So, when we started ClickFunnels, we needed a logo design, so we hired this guy, his name is Mantis, kind of like praying mantis, but he's Mantis. He lives over in Europe somewhere. I don't even know. And so I said I want a really cool logo, but I don't know what it looks like. So, he designed 20 different logos and a whole bunch of different ones, and that was one of the ones he designed. I was like, ooh, it's kind of cool. That was my favorite one. I like the gears because we can do gears like, on my jeep we could have gears on it. We could put gears on our T-shirts and things like that. So, that was just the favorite one I liked of all the different ones that he designed. Kid: Did you ever get like, when you wrestled, did you ever get really hurt really bad? Russell: Nothing too bad. I got hurt a little bit, but I never broke a bone or anything super bad. Kid: What was your favorite part about starting your business? Russell: I think my favorite part is my boys now are wrestling. My kids, they do a lot of sporting things, and it's cool because I can leave any time I want in the middle of the day, and go and see them. Go see them at wrestling practice, or I can do things like that. I kind of set my own schedule. So, those are my favorite things. I can set my own schedule and be able to to whatever I want. Kid: Were you nervous at all? Russell: Oh yes, all the time I get nervous. Especially sometimes I get to standup... So, this is kind of a little stage, and there's about, I think about 50 people can fit in here. But this year in February I spoke at a baseball stadium with 35,000 people in it. So, I walked on this huge stage and there's 35,000 people, and that was really scary, but it was pretty cool too. Kid: If you don't have this restrictive access, what's the next product you plan on selling if you are going to? Russell: Oh, that's a good question. I love software. The software business is fun because you create it once, and people pay you every single month for it. So, I think if I ever sold ClickFunnels or if I ever got unrestricted access to whatever, I'd probably call my business partner, Todd, up I'd say, okay, let's build some more software. This will really be fun because it's really nice. Some businesses are hard because it's like you have to ship products from China, or the supplements, you have to get all the materials and mix them all. This ones just nice because it's like we have a bunch of programmers who make the software better every single day. But people are just buying the software, they keep paying every single month. They keep using it. Kid: Also, I'm wondering where did you get your, you know, you said you had that extra pack with all the tubes and stuff, where did you get those things? Do you ship them in? Russell: Oh, the sell the kits? Kid: Yeah. Russell: There was a guy in Northern Idaho who I met who was selling potato guns online. He wasn't selling very many of them. So, I bought a kit from him and I'm like, these are really cool. So, I called him and I said, hey, you're selling these kits, I'm selling DVD, if I sell your kit and I pay you for it, will you ship it out to people? And he said, yeah. So, I think, I can't remember exactly. I think I'd pay like $50 to buy the kit from him, and I'd sell it for $200. So, basically, somebody would give me $200 and then I would send him $50, and he'd send the kit to them. It was really cool. Kid: Would ClickFunnels be something that smaller YouTubers would may be beneficial to them or would it be like- Russell: You want to be a YouTuber? No, for sure. In fact, we have a... Did you see the bathroom hallway yet or the kitchen? So, we have a really cool thing that we created, it's called the Two Comma Club. When somebody makes a million dollars inside of a funnel, we give them this huge gold record and there's two commas in it. Do you know why it's called Two Comma Club? Okay, this is why. If you draw a million dollars, this is what a million dollars looks like. That's a million dollars. How many commas are in a million dollars? Kids: Two. Russell: Oh, so we call it the Two Comma Club. So, anytime somebody makes over a million dollars, we send them a trophy like this and there's two commas it says, you're in the Two Comma Club. So, when you guys see we send them a big one like this big, and then we put a small one in our office. So, when you guys do a tour, you'll see all these all over the place. And then there's a silver one that means they made $10 million in side of funnel. So, anyway, I was going to tell you this because we have some kids right now, there's one kid who's I think... What's Caleb, Caleb's 17 or did he just turn 18? Well, anyway, one kid was like 17 or 18, he won a Two Comma Club award. We've got a couple of other kids that are teenagers that are like 15, 16 year old, that have almost won a Two Comma Club award. So, there are kids that are not that much older than you that are doing this. We had one girl who was here last week, when she was 13 years old, her mom taught her about how this whole business works, and she started selling scarves. And at 13 years old, she made over $100,000 on the internet selling scarves. Is that crazy? And then when she turned 16, she didn't want to get a driver's license because she had too much money, so she just had Ubers drive her around everywhere. So, she never got a driver's license. That's how much money she had. That be crazy? Take an Uber to school every day. Kid: If you're just selling merchandise on your channel, like you know how YouTubers sell merchandise? Russell: Yep. If you were to make some merchandise, would it be worth it to advertise it through your ClickFunnels or no? Russell: Yeah, for sure. Kid: Okay. Russell: Yep, for sure. Kid: What was the part that you found most interesting? Russell: Ooh, the most interesting? Definitely is all the different people we've had a chance to meet. So, people that started using ClickFunnels. First we didn’t know who was going to use it, and then we started meeting these amazing people. Like there's one guy, his name's Chris, and Chris had cancer. He almost died of cancer, and he figured out how to fight cancer, and he ended up not dying. So, he wrote a book called Chris Beat Cancer, and he was trying to sell it. He started selling it on ClickFunnels, and he's helped tens of thousands of people to overcome, to be able to fight cancer now from his book which is really, really cool. That was just one person, and there's so many interesting people like people selling all sorts of things. So, definitely my favorite part is just seeing all the cool people that we're helping and letting them sell more of their products to help more people. Kid: What other awarenesses do you help with? Russell: So, the main ones that we do, we do Operation Underground Railroad to help children from slavery. We go to Kenya every year. We build schools in Kenya for kids out there. And then we, a lot of the people that work with us do stuff like, one of these guys, he helps gym owners to build up their gyms, and last month... You guys know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is? Kids: Yeah. Russell: Arnold Schwarzenegger is like Mr. Olympia like 20 years, like the strongest man ever for a while, he gave $100,000 to Arnold Schwarzenegger to The Boys and Girls Program or, yeah Boys and Girls. So, we got to meet Arnold Schwarzenegger to give him $100,000 to help all these kids. So, a lot of people that we help, help tons of different organizations and charities too. It's really cool. Kid: What was the hardest part of your job? Russell: For a long time the hardest part was how to fire somebody. Oh, that was the worst. Someone works for you and they're not doing a very good job, you'd be like, I have to fire you. In fact, the first time I fired someone, guess what happened afterwards? Kids: What? Russell: I cried for like 10 minutes. It was really bad. I don't fire people anymore which is really nice. The hardest thing now is sometimes when ClickFunnels has a problems, we have 89,000 people that use our software, so like one time we were flying to London and when I was in the air, ClickFunnels went down, and everybody's websites, and everybody's Funnels went down. When I landed, people were super mad, and I got thousands of messages on my phone, everyone who was mad that all of their websites were down, and that was not very much fun. So, those are the hard parts sometimes when stuff like that happens. Kid: What's the hardest part that happened to you before, like in the start of your business? Russell: The start of my business? Twice I almost went bankrupt. Twice when I started making a little bit of money, and then I lost it all. That was the first time I had like probably six or seven employees, and then I couldn't afford it all, and we almost lost it all. The second time I built it to 100 employees, I was like, this is amazing. And then everything fell apart and I had to fire 80 people in one day. Oh, that was really hard too, so there's a lot of ups and downs. Someone earlier, oh you back here earlier said you didn't want to be an entrepreneur because of the risks. So, the nice thing to being an entrepreneur, there's two things, right. There's a lot of risks. Like a lot of times you can fail, and if you fail, you don't get paid anything. Like when I show up at work, I don't guarantee to get money. When you're an employee, if you get a job, you always get paycheck every two weeks. For me, I didn't get a guarantee. But the upsides is that you can make unlimited money. So, you have unlimited... There's no ceiling on it, so you kind of have the both. You can lose everything or you can make everything, but that's the scary part of it. But I still think it's worth it. Kid: It's sort of like a teeter-totter, like hanging off a cliff. You either fall or you live, so. Risk or no risk? You go on it, you risk your life. You don't, you stay alive. Russell: There you go. The entrepreneur teeter-totter, you either live or you die. The last question. Make sure it's the best one ever. Kid: What's your favorite part about your job? Russell: All of the people that work here at ClickFunnels are my best friends, so my favorite thing to come in everyday and I get to see all of my best friends. We all get to hangout and talk about business, and have ideas and brainstorm, and it's just fun to hangout with all of my friends everyday. Man: I'll give you one more final maybe tough question. Russell: All right. Man: As you've built this, obviously, you've had to venture out into different things whether that's speaking, or hiring people and firing people, all these different things. What would you say has been the greatest fear that you've had to face? Russell: It's tough because there's a lot of fears that go into starting a business because the path never, there's never a path. It's always you're just kind of like, so when you hire your first employee, you're like do I hire somebody, do I have enough money to hire? Like what's the rule, what's the laws? I don't even know, but I know I need help. It's just like you hire them, and then you're like waiting for everything to collapse. Then you're like, okay, nothing bad happened. Okay, cool, then you hire another person. My first time I hired eight employees before I knew I had to pay taxes. I didn't even know that was a thing. I had no idea, and I found out later. It's like, oh, you have to pay taxes and payroll tax, and like I didn't know that. So, like you have to go fix all the problems that you made, but I think a lot of times for me the scary part is I just didn't know anything. I was just kind of just stepping out. I was passionate about stuff so I was trying to create things, and as I was creating things, that's when to be able to support the art of what we were trying to do, like you had to figure out all of the other stuff along the way. But we were so passionate with what we were doing, it made it worth it. But just the fear of like at every step of it, because there's a million books but you don't know which book to read for this problem or this situation. A lot of times you read a book later, you're like, oh, that would have been awesome to know way back here. So, a lot of it is just being willing to risk it all and just hope for the best and hope you figure it out as you go. I heard someone say one time it's like you're jumping out of an airplane and you're building the parachute as you're falling. You know, like I hope I get this thing figured out before I hit the ground. That's what it feels like most days, especially the early days. Less nowadays. We've got pretty good structure in place now, but initially it was a lot of that kind of stuff. That's why I think a lot of people don't do the entrepreneurship because that first step is really scary. It's not like I know this is the path, get a degree, go to college, get a job. There's no path like that. It's like okay, go create something and the market will tell you if you're worth it or not. That's kind of scary to put yourself out there a lot of times.

Developing Relationships For Winning Partnerships with Barbara Jaynes Barbara Jaynesis the founder of Positively-Funded. A Business Development firm focused on making nonprofits THRIVE. Barbara came to the nonprofit sector after having spent over fifteen years in large scale commercial real estate development. Bringing with her savvy negotiation skills and durable relationship development between the private and public sectors. Positively-Funded assists nonprofits with creating authentic community allies. Engaging for profit partners in nonprofit missions to increase their revenue, decrease employee turnover and create sustainable resilient communities. Barbara focuses on winning relationships for the long-term. More about Jayne http://www.positively-funded.com  The Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Greetings, folks. It's Hugh Ballou in central western Virginia, where today the flowers are coming out, the sun is shining, it's absolutely a gorgeous day. These are the old mountains in the Appalachians. You got all the young, pointy mountains out there in Denver, Russell. Russell Dennis: We haven't filed them down yet. We have a lot of them, too. Hugh: You have a lot of them. We have a good guest that you actually talked to and got her on board today. It's an important topic people don't talk about globally, or even around the corner in their own communities. There is a lot more we can do. Barbara Jaynes, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Barbara Jaynes: Hello, Hugh. Hello, Russ. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Hugh: Tell our listeners a little bit about Barbara, your history, and why you're doing what you're doing now. Barbara: I'd love to, Hugh. Thank you. In 2006, my family and I moved to Superior, Colorado right outside Boulder. Before that, I lived in Cleveland and did inner city redevelopment. I worked in some of the toughest neighborhoods in the country and did urban renewal. I did some hospitals, large scale, ground up shopping centers and grocery stores. I loved what I did. It was my vocation. When I came to Denver, it wasn't as old, and people weren't as interested in my vocation and developing strong communities.  So I decided to go to the nonprofit sector and take my vocation and business skills there. I went to one of the most well-known nonprofits in Denver. I would bring them these incredible partners. They didn't know how to develop the relationships. They just wanted the check. You can't do that. Target doesn't want you to burn through a gallon of milk one time; they want you to do it 1,000 times. Nonprofits need to start thinking like businesses. I realized that. They needed to learn how to develop these relationships and know they are a value add. That's how Positively Funded was founded. Hugh: Positively Funded. That's your business and website? Barbara: It is. Positively-Funded.com. Hugh: What's that about? Barbara: I wanted nonprofits to think of a positive way to fund themselves. What I do is beneficial to both parties. It's not about give me, give me, give me. It's about going out and developing relationships that work. In the business sector you find your community allies and ask, “What is it that you need? Are you having a hard time engaging millennials? Are you having a hard time keeping employees? Do you need a better market profile? Do you need sales increased?” You work with the nonprofit to benefit yourself to help your business grow and benefit the nonprofit at the same time. Hugh: Russell, did you hear that? There is a synergy between for-profit and for-purpose businesses. What did you hear in that, Russ? Russell: It's all about collaboration. We had a great discussion on that. I have been wanting to get Barbara on the show for a while. We just started having discussions. There are people I am meeting all over the place right here in town that Barbara and I will be talking with soon. It never ceases to amaze me how when you are vibrating at a certain frequency, people start to turn up. I had a good friend who did therapy for veterans who is recently retired. Just ran into her this morning. We were having coffee. She said, “What can I do?” That is somebody Barbara needs to meet and other people around here need to meet. We can get a lot more done together. The traditional models of each thing don't seem to fit. I am starting to see people who are creating hybrid businesses, socially responsible businesses. They are taking their for-purpose enterprises in new directions and looking at mission-based revenue. It's all exciting. It starts with partnerships and being able to talk to each other. Barbara and I met for lunch one day. She is so easy to talk to. It could be that we are vibrating on the same frequency. It could be a mild form of group psychosis. Either way, the results will be the same if we collaborate. Barb's masterful at putting these partnerships together. She is from my hometown. It's not surprising. Hugh: It's the thin air there that helps inspire you, I'm sure. Russ, we preach the song of working together, of collaborating. The town where I live, Lynchburg, the University of Lynchburg, is launching a center for nonprofit leadership around the theme of collaboration. We have lots of nonprofits that distribute food to hungry people, and some who provide meals in addition to that. There is no overarching umbrella of how they can work together. If somebody is hungry on a Friday night, none of them are available for food. If someone is bound at home and can't use transportation, there is no way they can get to this food bank. We are putting together an umbrella organization for people to know that other ones exist, and where can we have a meaningful conversation? Barbara, let's start from the beginning. We have these different entities. From where I sit, I've been in history longer than you guys, today it's more important for the work of our nonprofits, whatever we call ourselves, our work is more important today because the world is so splintered and fragmented and toxic. We do the substantive work of doing good. But really, it works better if we work together. Where is the starting point? Suppose the scenario I have just outlined. There are a bunch of medical facilities that are free clinics. How do you start this conversation? How do you paint this paradigm of benefit? How do you take people who are interested and make them allies? Barbara: Hugh, the scenario that you put out is very common. One nonprofit does this, and another one does that. The nonprofits need to come together and collaborate as well. They need to look at where are the gaps that we need to fill in. We both do amazing things. No one nonprofit can be everything to the world. You might take a scenario and take those gaps and go out and find a community partner. Say, “We have this need. Here is what it is. We are not serving-” Take your example on a Friday night. While we both have food, we're not available to serve them. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the bodies to do it ourselves. How could we work with you to help solve this problem? Ask for the mentorship from those companies. When you work with a company, it's so important that you are working from bottom to top, top to bottom, hitting everyone. So go to their development people, their operations people, their finance people in the C-suite and say that you need mentorship in these areas. We have this problem. Help us solve it. Go to their new employees. Say, we could use some volunteers. The company you work for is amazing because they are helping to support the community and feed those who are hungry. We need your support as well. Talk about employee retention and the mental health benefits from volunteering. And engaging millennials. Millennials don't just want what's in the envelope at the end of the week. They want a purpose and a reason to be there. You the nonprofit can help give them that purpose.   Hugh: Connecting those dots is essential. There is this fear factor where we have our group of volunteers, and we don't want people to take them. We have our group of donors. Volunteers commonly work with several organizations, and donors donate to a bunch of organizations. Speak to this fear of having these conversations. How do we get people to the table to even explore the potential? Barbara: That is so true. When it comes down to donors and volunteers and corporate champions, suddenly everyone turns into 12-year-old mean girls. You have to stop that mindset. You cannot come from the mindset of scarcity. You have to come from the mindset of, I am a value added. Don't you want volunteers and donors who are passionate about what you're doing? If they're not passionate about you, they're not really your volunteers or donors. They might just be there for the day. Don't you want someone for the long haul to create an authentic long-term relationship with them? Shouldn't you find the right people for your mission that have the passion for it who are truly going to become your partners? Hugh: Russ is thinking on that one. He is bubbling up. Russell: You have to get the right people on the bus. That involves speaking to them in a way that resonates with them. It's finding that spot where you connect, and they get that. One of the things we were thinking about is running an organization, when do you come to the realization that you need allies in the community? Barbara: I'll tell you my life philosophy, which is how I raised my girls. The strongest trees have the most branches. I gave my girls a lot of branches. We don't have family here in Colorado. We moved to the other coast away from everyone. I gave them branches at church. We have branches in the neighborhood. They have branches at school. They had branches at sports. They had a lot of strength because they had a lot of different people in their lives to help nurture them because it does take your village. You should look at your nonprofit the same way. Do you have enough branches? Are you a strong four-legged stool? Do you have grants? Do you have community allies? Do you have individual donors? Do you have a fundraising program? You can't just rely on one leg to be a strong stool. You need a little bit of everything. If you think about how you diversify your personal financial portfolio, we're all told to do that, do that with your nonprofit funding. Is your portfolio diversified? Do you have four strong legs to hold you up? Or are you one grant away from closing your door? If you don't have those four strong legs, go out and make partners. Go out and find community allies. Bring the for-profit sector in to you and share your passion and your story. Russell: What does that process look like? People realize they need partners, but how do I start figuring out which ones I need and how to go about getting them? Barbara: That's a great question. For a lot of people, that is a conversation stopper. They're like, I know I need partners, but I don't know what to do. Then someone comes to your door and needs help, and it ends right there. You have to take some time out to focus on yourself and care for yourself and nurture your own nonprofit before you go the way of blockbustering by the dinosaurs. Look at your board and tell them, “We have this winning partnership idea that we want to collaborate with the for-profit sector for. Can I look at your LinkedIn contacts and see there might be someone there who you could introduce me to?” I am making it perfectly clear that I am not calling that person to ask for a check. I am looking for a true, authentic business partnership where I can increase their brand and community power, and they can help support us.” That is one starter right there. Russell: That is going right through the table and doing something for them first. Where can we add value? That is what a partnership is all about. It's not one-sided. It's about people bringing value. A lot of nonprofits have trouble looking at things that way when they are speaking with donors or potential donors. It's not a hat in hand kind of thing. We can together provide a value that is going to make a change in our community. If we can do that, then we will be able to make some impact. In terms of allies or partners, what qualities do we look for in a good ally, and what do we do to make ourselves good allies for people we want to partner with? Barbara: One of the things I always coach nonprofits on is look at the mission statement. Look at the values of the company. What they're doing right now, before you approach them. We really seem to have similar thought processes here and similar value traits. That would be someone I can approach. Look at their press releases. What are they growing? What are they talking about? When you do reach out to them, you can say, I read that press release and heard this, and this. That really aligns with what we're doing, too. Maybe we can help each other get where we want to be. Russell: You can do that. The difference isn't necessarily- if you have two or three organizations, you multiply your resources exponentially instead of sequentially. Barbara: Absolutely. That's important. When you go out and start this, my philosophy where I found, whether I was doing real estate development or nonprofit business development, is the 30/10/3 rule. I am going to call 30 people. 10 of them want to talk to me. 3 want to say yes, I like that, let's talk some more. Hugh: That's a great ratio. 30/10/3. Talk to 30. 10- Barbara: Call 30. 10 will want to talk to you. I hear about this. 3 of them want to bite into it and say, “This is a good idea. I can see where this is helpful to me and helpful to you. Let's talk.” Hugh: That's an important routine. Russell: Talk to ten for every one you want to secure. That works for any customer base: donors, volunteers, potential board members. I love the idea of making sure that you check that alignment. People like to talk with people who have done some homework and know a little bit about their organization or them as a person. You start asking questions about them. LinkedIn is a good platform. Everybody's favorite subject is them. They're their own favorite subject. It's finding a way to lift them up, and not blowing smoke. People can tell if you're just blowing smoke. If there is an authentic connection, leveraging that and talking about that. Hugh: This is what we call ROR, Return on Relationship. That 30/10/3 rule is ongoing. I hear people say, “I talked to an organization about it, and it didn't work.” I talked to an organization. I say, “I tried working out one day last year, and it didn't work either.” Underneath what I'm hearing you say, there is a continuity. You have to stick with it. There is persistence. Speak to that. We think we're bothering people. No, we're not. We're giving them an opportunity. Help reverse that paradigm, would you? Barbara: You need to have tenacity, just like a business would. I want this. I know I'm making a difference. I know my product is helping the community. You need to have the tenacity, the passion to go out with that and know you're not bothering people. You don't know what problems that business has. You have something to offer to help them with those problems. Do people know your brand? Do you need brand recognition? Do you need a new platform? Are you struggling in the hiring process? You can put a letter from us in your New Hire packet so when people interview with you, you're right there to talk about it. In your follow-up emails, we are right there to say how amazing you are in a video. We're your partnership in everything from sales to hiring. We don't know who we know who might want your products in their stores. Truly embed yourself in that culture. Make it a give-give. Hugh: Russell, do you have your head around what Barbara Jaynes does? Can you explain it for people who are listening to her for the first time? Russell: What she does is bring people together from multiple sectors to solve social problems and put good systems in place and help people have conversations. The conversation that we rarely have, when you're talking with people in nonprofits, is about value, the dreaded V word. That's what we're all bringing to the table. It's helping people understand that they bring value, and to quantify that in terms that makes sense to other people. She helps in bringing business systems. Thinking of your organization as a business, as a producer of value, and approaching it from that place so that you're out there offering everybody you come in contact with something of value, whether they are donors, providing pro bono work, a socially responsible business looking to support a cause, or a nonprofit looking to get support. It boils down to a couple of things: money and people. If you are short on either, at some point, you're going to fold. Hugh: Barbara, how did he do? Barbara: He did great. He is true. I am called the connector. That's important because I connect for winning relationships. He is right about the value add. I like to play the game, “Bigger and Better” in business. Did you ever play the game as a kid where you start off with a paper clip and go door to door? I have a paper clip – what will you trade me that is bigger and better? Then you go to the next door with what they give you and trade for something else. I do the same thing, with my nonprofits and business partnerships. I had a nonprofit I was meeting with and said, “A church came and built our fence a couple weeks ago.” “How did you thank them? How did you follow up?” We are going to send them a letter. “No, no, no. They have parishioners. You go and ask their pastor, ‘We want to thank your congregation in person. Could we have five minutes to stand up after your announcements and personally thank them and let them know what building this fence meant to us and talk about your charity?'” You have a captive audience of 300 or more people. Don't walk away from that. That's not a thank-you letter. Go get them. Hugh: Whoa. Did you hear that? Maybe we should do that. Russell: We have to work on this. When we do get you here to town, we will take you to McDonalds. Then we will swap that from Morton's or something like that. That is too far. The idea is now firmly planted. It's like toothpaste. It's not going back in once it comes out. Hugh: You know who your friends are, don't you? Russell, I heard her talk about installing or teaching business principles to nonprofits. I'm not sure that all businesses have those skills either. They think they do. They have some cash flow that masks their ignorance. That's what Russ and I spend our life doing: helping nonprofit organizations think in terms of cash flow and budgeting and marketing and all the things businesses need. I find sometimes that even businesses that donate or buy sponsorships for nonprofits don't know how to get the benefit of that sponsorship. They donate, but they don't know how to say, “What's this money going to create? What difference will it make?” They don't know how to ask that. When they make a business decision to use marketing money to sponsor an event, they don't know how to get a return on that investment. Is that part of what you help both sides explore? Barbara: It absolutely is, Hugh. It's so important because I teach this to both sides. You need to say, for every $10 we bring in, we provide a box of groceries to a family that will feed them for a week. What nonprofits do with money is magical. For every $20 we can take care of 10 new dogs in our shelter. When you quantify it like that, it lets the business know, Oh, I am donating $5,000. It translates to 500 dogs. This is what I can do. On the nonprofit side, you should always be talking numbers. Numbers ring true with millennials and with businesses. When you say to someone, “This is what $50 can do,” I didn't know you could do that with $50. I would have donated $500; I didn't realize I would have upped my ante. Let them know from the beginning, if you're doing an event, this is how much we want to raise. This is what it breaks down into. For every $20 increment, this is what it will change. Same on the business side. Let people know, Hey, this is what we did last year for nonprofits. Here is the impact for each one of them. Hugh: There is a lot in the ask. I served a church in Atlanta of 12,000. The preacher raised $18 million for the next phase of the building program, to double the size of the facility. He did that in 14 lunches. I was sitting in his office one day, and he had the cash before they dug any dirt. He is reading the newspaper where one of the people he had talked to had given $4 million for a building at one of the local universities. He called that guy up and said, “I'm sorry I asked you for such a small amount.” Russell: When you hit that sweet spot, we underestimate ourselves. It's important to set those expectations. What is it that you want? I think the way to do that would be approaching a foundation or corporation is to look at it that you want to try to get, but find out what they want. Barbara is good at helping them find that because they don't always know what they want to get. She sits with them and works with them and asks them what they want to try to do. You can't get goodwill out of a Madison Avenue magazine spread. It comes with being connected with people, making a difference. If everyone is clear on the common goals, you can set some measures. With donors, it's important to keep in touch with them. After they have written a check, let them know what the money is doing. The money should be quantified not just numerically, but in terms of story, in terms of people who are getting your services. How far those dollars are going. Thanking them. Highlighting some of them. This is what your support is making possible. They hear from you much more frequently than when you need money. if the only time they hear from you is when it's time to write a check, they will run for the hills. Barbara: You are so right. That is not the thing to do. It shouldn't be, I've gotten my check. Life is beautiful. Make that relationship true. Ask them, Can we do a quarterly updated video for your staff? Every quarter, let's update them and let them know the impact and what is going on. You want to triple their Roladex, and they want to keep your employees. You want to embed yourself into the culture to support them and support your nonprofit. You do a video that goes out in an email link to every employee, thank them, let them know what you have done with their money. It's amazing we have these wonderful programs, and we are able to serve so many more people. Last month, we had 50 people come in with this problem. We have to figure out how to solve this. Will you roll up your sleeves and help me solve it? You engage them beyond money. Sweat equity, mentorship, be there for me. I want to hit on something Russ said before about knowing who your audience is. I firmly believe you don't just go out and throw stuff against the wall to see what sticks. So many people will say, “You're a big company. Write me a check.” You have to have a reason. Start with a why. I really researched you. I know what you do. We have the same vibe. We're good for each other. Let's talk about this. Russell: A lot of that goes into the psychology of their branding. You have Nike that says, Just do it. If your message resonates with something along those lines, you get an idea of you look at who is in their commercials. Who are the people they are trying to reach, attract? How many of those people are in your tribe? They want that exposure, that goodwill. It's important to look at that to see how we align with them. Just as importantly, to use language that resonates with them to start a conversation. I think the conversation starts with trying to find the right person. That may not always be somebody with a sponsorship label. It may be somebody in marketing, or have another title. They have different pockets of money. Only a certain number of dollars are earmarked for sponsorship. They could support you elsewhere. It's having that conversation and asking them questions with what you have in mind, and bouncing something off of them. It's trying to dig up information that's not in their literature to get a feel for the person and start building that relationship. After you have an idea of where they're going in that particular point in time, then you tell them about your project. After you have gathered enough information, you ask if it's okay to send a proposal. But these folks are busy. You want to get a 15-mintue interview. Nothing will annoy them more than asking questions that are on their website that they spent money to make. Doing that homework is important. That is what Barbara is masterful at helping you do. Barbara: They have to know that you know who they are. They have to know why. Why have you called me? You need to have a good answer. I went to a meeting with one of my clients. The owner of the company across the table said, “Why did you call on us?” I could tell them exactly why. You belong to this association, and this technology association aligns with what this charity does. He's like, Thank you. You know who we are. We walked out with a check. It made the difference in the world. To take that time, to know who you're talking to, and why you're talking to them. Russell: You don't always expect to walk out with a check on the first visit, but if that's the end result, be open to receiving that. Barbara: My client was very happy. It really opened their eyes to the way that I do my things. I relaly want my clients to learn from my playbook and to be able to run with it and do it on their own. I don't want to be there permanently from them. As your community needs change, you will be able to go out and meet those needs. Russell:We get back to this discussion on value. A lot of businesses quantify that by their products and services. How can a nonprofit do that? A lot of people will sit there and actually have a limited view of what's valuable to other people? What are some things they can do to demonstrate value? Barbara: Know your data. Know who you're helping and how many people you're serving. When you are meeting with that person, you have your numbers and alignment. When you ask that company what they need, do you need us to write a thank you letter that you can send to your vendors to let them know what a community ally you are and support you are? Do you need us to do a video to your vendors to let them know what you're doing? It triples the Rolodex for the nonprofit and puts new eyes on them as well as help the business. Do you need us to do a video for your customers so when they purchase something and get the receipt, I am there to thank them personally and let them know how important you are in the community? They are not getting a pair of shoes; they are getting someone who makes a difference in the world. That's who they're buying from. Tell us what you need. Russell: You mentioned vendors, and I don't know that people think that. Part of the value of your board of directors is the relationships they have. I don't know if people think in terms of we don't have a relationship with XYZ, but we have people on our board who have relationships with W company who is a vendor of XYZ. Do you frequently find that is a good way to approach an organization? Barbara: It is. Using vendors is important. They want that winning relationship with their internal customers. It creates even greater synergy. It gives the company that you want to ally with a better story that they can tell to their vendors. We are not buying copy paper from just anybody; we are buying copy paper from the company that does this. You have their community story, and you have their back. Make sure you are wearing each other's jerseys. Russell: What do you think of that, Hugh? Are you ready to go out and buy a Cleveland Browns jersey and a Denver Broncos jersey just in case it all goes sideways for the Redskins? Hugh: I gather those are football teams. I am not much of a football fan. I am a NASCAR guy. I am in the South. This is intriguing. Let's talk about your organization, Positively-Funded. How did you come to that name? Barbara: I wanted to change the way that nonprofits thought about funding. Not to think that you have to go out with your tail tucked between your legs and grovel and I gotta go out and beg because the lights are getting turned off. No. You have a value add. You have something positive to give to the business world beyond the community that you provide services for. Get out there and be positive with it. I have something to offer. I want to be your partner. I want to make your business thrive so that my community thrives also.   Hugh: It's a win-win proposition. I heard Russ say earlier in the conversation about finding out what other people want. It's something that he introduces to a conversation on finding board members or donors. It would occur to me the same thing would happen here. Find out what the business is interested in. You had done your homework, so you walked out with a check. You had studied what that company was about. I can't tell you how many times that doesn't happen with companies I know. They misspell the person's name in a pitch. That is not a good start. How did you get the name for this company? How did you think of that name? Barbara: It's what I just came up with. I wanted to make a difference in the way and change the mindset of how nonprofits felt they needed to be funded. You don't need to beg. This is a positive thing. You are offering something positive to those financially investing in you, sweat equity investing in you, pro bono. You have something great to offer. Hugh: Let's do a summary here. What are the top three to five mistakes that nonprofits make when they approach a company for some sort of connection, partnership, funding? What is the remedy to those mistakes? Barbara: I think the very first thing is do your homework. Study who you're going after, and know why you're going after them. Don't go in cold. Hugh: The mistake is they don't know what the company does, or who the person is. They have not honored that person at all. Barbara: When you talked about when you're sending out a letter and misspelling the name, I advise to never blindly send out a letter. Do not do that. I research my companies. Call them first. Have a conversation. Then send a follow-up email. Thank them for their time. If you leave a voicemail, send an email. I left you a message this morning, and I want you to know why I left that message. Hugh: When you call a company, who do you ask for? Barbara: It depends on what the nonprofit really needs. You typically look at who is doing their community investments? Most companies have a community investment team. They have an employee engagement team. You ask for those things. Those types of departments. Hugh: The first mistake is know your enemy. You need to know your prospect. The problem is they don't know who they are, know about them, know the personality. The remedy is study who they are and get educated before you even make the first call. Barbara: Absolutely. That is your very first thing. Know your audience. Hugh: Give us a few more. What is a mistake nonprofits make? Barbara: The other thing is going in for the kill, and I just want the check. No. Develop the relationship. You don't just want that check. You need more than that check. You need partners. You need support. You need a strong four-legged stool. Ask for it. I need mentorship. Your CFO, I need help with my books. I need to understand how to financially run better. Give me mentorship. I need from your operations department. We are going to replace our roof in three years. I don't know the first thing about getting a roofing contractor. I need to start saving for that now. I need to know what to look for. What is my best roof to have in the long term? Ask for the help. Ask for the right people. Go bottom to top. Go for their C-suite. Go for their board. Know those people. Research them. Know that you need more than just a check. You need sweat equity and volunteering, too. Hugh: Not knowing your prospects. Get to know them. Go in there thinking it's one and done. Not working on long-term relationship. What's another? Barbara: Not doing your follow-up and diligence. Not keeping that relationship fire stoked. Not staying in touch and saying, What can we offer you? I see that one of your goals is that you want to hire 10 new people. How can I help you with that? Do you want a letter from us saying how amazing you are that goes into your interview packets? Do you want a video for a thank you? How can we help? Do you want an opportunity, so on that person's first day of work, I know a person who does this, every employee's first day of work, they don't show up at the company. This is our charity. You will go there and stock the shelves of this food back and spend the day with them. Tomorrow, you show up here. Hugh: That is great. That's three really good ones. Do you want to float another one? Or is that good? Barbara: I really think it's important that you have your number ducks in a row. Know your numbers. Know your numbers internally. Know how they work. Know your company's numbers. I want to know what your turnover rate has been since we have started this partnership. I want to know your brand recognition. I want to know about your sales. I want to know about your customer satisfaction. I want to know that we have impacted you in return. Hugh: This is also reciprocal. When you are asking for money, you want to ask for a specific amount. There are some people who say, “I want $20-30,000.” That's not specific. There is a $10,000 spread; it doesn't sound like you're careful with my money. It's their money until they give it to you. Russell: Specificity is important. The universe will hear $20,000 if you say $20-30. $20,000 will show up. That's what you put out there. That's what you want. It helps to be specific. It sounds like all of these things, as far as looking for ways to be of service, can help build the long-term relationship with a business or between a business and nonprofit. What are some other things? What are the most important things, say for the business to do, or for the nonprofit to do? Maybe two or three things that are important for each of them to do to make sure that you can build and maintain a long-term relationship. Barbara: I think the very first thing in your follow-up plan is have a regular communication strategy. We're going to talk. Whatever department is your go-to person, have a standing monthly conversation. Update each other. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Great. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Keep that communication going. Offer to spend time with their employees. Do a lunch and learn quarterly. Talk about how what seniors need. Here are the latest stats in America for seniors. Here is their food scarcity, transportation problems. Let us come in and talk about our wisdom in our sector, and how you can overcome these things, and how we work together. Hugh: Brilliant. Barbara: Invite us to come to your association. Whatever your trade association is, bring us along. Let us be your dog and pony show. We're there for you. Hugh: That's also part of top of mind marketing. They don't forget you because you're there, and you are always looking to add value to the other. There are business leaders who see nonprofit as their duty. I wrote my check, and I'm done. Rather than looking for the win-win, which takes time. I like your set of questions. Do you work just in Colorado? She has a superior attitude, Russell. I don't know why. Just in Superior. Do you work all over? Barbara: I go beyond Superior, Colorado. Boulder County is my home, that's for sure. I have worked with international nonprofits. I have worked with national nonprofits. I have worked with statewide nonprofits. I work with little babies with a staff of four. Everyone starts somewhere. Everyone can create winning partnerships, no matter what your size is. Hugh: Is there a place on your website where people can ping you and have a conversation with you to explore possibilities? Barbara: Absolutely. My phone number is on there. My email. There is a Contact form you can fill out. Whatever medium is your comfort zone, be it phone or email. Hugh: This is good stuff. I'm a conductor by trade. Musical conductor. Not railroad conductor. The composer/conductor Ralph Long Williams from Britain is known to have said, “Music did not reveal all of its secrets to just one person.” We can say that about funding, partnerships, leadership. It's good. We have gotten some wisdom from a lot of people over the four years. Thank you for your time today. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* The messages you have shared today are close to our heart. We wish people in every community would have some wisdom to share. Barbara, I am going to throw it to you for a closing tip or challenge. Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. This is wonderful to be able to share the good news of you have something to offer. Go out and be positive in your funding. Don't tuck your tail between your legs. I'd like to challenge nonprofits to look at your stool. How many legs do you have? How strong are they? Go find your community allies. Look beyond your traditional scope. What can I do? What do I have to offer? How can I collaborate? How can I be a good community collaborator, not only with the for-profit sector, but with other nonprofits? There is strength in numbers. Go out and be positively funded. Russell: Thanks always, Barbara. I am looking forward to having lunch with you later this week. That is the beauty of the bonus I get, Hugh. Barbara is in my backyard, and we are going to talk to people here and do what we can to come together and make some impact. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Ol' Bee Gal Q&A brought to you by KeepingBackyardBees.com Please submit your questions by following this link.    Here are the questions addressed in this episode. Fadi What happens to the old queen after the hive makes a new queen?   Gil Why have his bees made honey of varied colors?   Russell What does it mean to you to be a beekeeper?   Ron I purchased packages of bees with Saskatraz bees.  Are these queens noted for swarming?   Wimukthi If the queen receives royal jelly at the larval stage, what is she fed at the adult stage?   Gilberto How many bees can I keep with approximately 100 acres of various types of forage?   John How do bees do when wind farms are put in the area?   Jeremy When ideally does a Queen start laying winter bees? Does supplementary feeding effect this decision?  

Welcome to the Ol' Bee Gal Q&A brought to you by KeepingBackyardBees.com  Please submit your question by following this link.    Here are the questions addressed in this episode.   John  What can John do to prevent "small black ants" that may be causing his bees to abscond?   Ken Even though I've primed the wick, the candles are not burning evenly.  What can he do differently?   Lisa How do I do a count for varroa mites?   Linda After requeening a swarm, how long can I expect the new queen's genetics to completely pass through the hive?   Lynn If you cut holes in the top box to let out condensation does that let other insects in?   Question from Russell What about ordering bees this spring?

LAURIEN TOWERS began her diversified career of over 30 years as one of the producers of LIVE AID, immediately followed by several other live global telecasts. Laurien has produced and directed multi-cultural events internationally including with Eastern Bloc nations, concerts, animation, film, and theatre. Her expertise includes strategic planning, creative development, and production of special events, benefits, concerts, live global telecasts, animation, documentaries and film festivals. Ms. Towers has extensive experience in Special Events Production & Management. She has worked internationally with government agencies, non-profit organizations, private companies, performers and media worldwide to create and establish joint business ventures and entertainment co-productions. Laurien has organized, produced, directed and managed the logistics, travel and promotional details for business conferences, benefits, concerts, live global telecasts,theatrical, film and video productions. Additionally, she has managed and represented international musical acts for charitable events and commercial concert venues in the U.S. Dedicated to promoting cross-cultural understanding and cooperation, Laurien has been involved with the development and production of positive, innovative projects that focus on children, humanitarian, and environmental issues. She has served as Executive Director for Medicine for Humanity, an international non-profit organization dedicated to improving women's health worldwide, and consults with other non-profit organizations to develop creative projects and mutually beneficial alliances with local venues and businesses for fundraising events. Interview Transcript NPE Laurien Towers Hugh Ballou: Hey friends, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Russ, we got another good guest today, thanks to you. You reached out and talked to Laurien. Russ, how are you today? Russell Dennis: It's a fine day here in Aurora, Colorado, right by Denver. We've got Laurien Towers. Brilliant lady who has done a lot of events. She is here to share her wisdom with us about how to run an event for your nonprofit. Some of the things that will enhance your success. Hugh: With that lead-in, Laurien, welcome. Laurien Towers: Thank you, Hugh and Russ. I am honored and privileged to be here with you. I love what you guys are doing. I've watched diligently the past few months. I've been an event producer for what feels like my whole life, over 30 years. I have worked on huge events, live global satellite shows. I began with Live Aid. I was in the former Soviet Union for a number of live telecasts and concerts. I did a film project with them. I have worked in the Caribbean. I don't just do large events. I work with smaller nonprofits. I just came up to Washington to work with one and do an annual one. I have worked with churches and kids' groups and Save the Whales. I am well-versed and love doing events for causes to help them raise money, awareness, and make a difference and expand the great work they all do. Hugh: Thank you. We have some specific questions we want to ask you. Before we get into that, I want you to give us some perspective. Why should people have events? Then what is an example of an event that went wrong? Laurien: How long do you have? Hugh: I want to get into the questions, so give us a summary. Laurien: I prefer to focus on the ones that work. In any case, why people do events. The first obvious one is they want to raise money for their cause, organization, church. How can we have a big party and have people come support us? That is not the only reason. Sometimes it is a new organization, or you moved to a new location, so you do it to invite the community into my home to see what I do and what I'm passionate about and hopefully inspire them to be excited about what you care about doing, as I am. A lot of it is about awareness and outreach, expanding your base, whether it's just community relationships, and your support base, donors, long-term, to help you do what you love doing. Russell: What are some things people need to look at? I want to have a fundraising event. What are some things people need to look at before they make a decision to try to do an event? Laurien: For me, it always starts with a strategic plan. Where are you? Looking at reality, where you are right now, what resources do you have? I don't mean just financial. Do you have a staff that is 100% dedicated to what they have to do every day? Do they have a huge workload so they can't take on another thing? Or do you have volunteers? Do you have someone specific to do events? That is a key piece. When you get into the event, the event takes on a life of its own. I don't care if it's a bake sale or Live Aid. They are a living entity. You look at the resources you have, your team. Identify your strengths. What do you need? Is it easily accessible to you to do it? Sometimes people start off with wanting to do a huge event to make a difference. Then you look at it and go, “I can only do a bake sale.” Start with where you are. I believe in stepping stones. Russell: There are a lot of parts to unpack. Getting back to what Hugh asked, talk about some of the things you have seen happen where some of the key parts were missing. Events that went off the rails. Laurien: I think the first thing is you are not clearly defining your goals and not really identifying who is going to take on which role to make it happen. Getting ahead of yourself. Not following step by step. We are going to have this festival. Where are you now? Where are you going to have it? You have to consider weather, the location, all the things that can go wrong. If you are doing a live event, something will go awry. You will have to watch the football game on Sunday. You have to be prepared to do that. That is the key piece, the one I see over and over again, people jump in and don't have a clue. They start promoting it before they have all the pieces in place. Then they have to backtrack. It's taking time. A lot of it is you don't have enough lead time either. Oh, we can do that next month. No, you really need a significant amount of lead time to prepare properly. Russell: Are there specific rules of thumb in general people want to look at from a time perspective as to how far ahead we need to look at this for an event? Laurien: My key always is to do a minimum lead time of 4-6 months. You're asking for extra problems and challenges to show up if you do it any sooner than that. Also, it depends on your location. Weather is a factor. Both you and I and Hugh, last month, couldn't do things outdoors. If you planned it, it was probably going to be postponed. Other events happening in your area. Pay attention. There are calendars everywhere. If you want to do an event, but there are 10 others happening in that period of time, they will take your audience who would come and support you. Russell:What types of things go into looking at who the audience is and who you want to bring in to your event? Laurien: It's about what your focused on. I heard you the other day talking about the homeless community. People who care about the cause. That's where you want to go. Who do you want to identify? Who would you like to get engaged with your organization, who is not already aware of it? Sponsors. Your legislators. The mayor. Congresspeople. Reach to the audience that you know. You want them to come help support you. But you want to broaden your community. The reason you're doing an event is to broaden your outreach in all areas, including funding. The more people you have on board, the more people you have access to. Russell: Everything costs money. It requires some thinking about what sort of expenses you will have and revenues. There is the dreaded B-word. Budget. Laurien: Everyone loves to talk to me initially because I love to brainstorm and create. That's the fun part. Then I say “budget.” They go, No, no, we don't have a budget. Well, you have to have one, even if you get absolutely everything donated, which I successfully did last year for an event here. We were not out of pocket for everything we needed. Everything came through to support the funding goal. However, that is not always the case. So you do have to create a budget. If you're going to need it for your event, it should have a cost line item, even if you know someone is going to get it for you. Russell: What are some of the line items you should include in your budget? I know there are an awful lot. Laurien: First would be where the event is being held. If it's in your own living room, that's not a cost. Usually there is a venue cost. There is sometimes staffing costs. There is food. Catering. If you want to have beverages, even if it's a conference and you are going to serve coffee. My goodness. I am going through all the items off the top of my head. Your promotions. Your printing. How are you going to get the message out there? Social media is popular. There are a lot of people who will attend who don't do that. Again, know your demographics. If it's a youthful audience, social media is great. Email is great. But there are times where you want flyers and posters. Russell: Are there some common line items you see people miss repeatedly when putting a budget together? What are items people overlook? Laurien: I would say people most often overlook are the obvious ones. If you're going to have a silent auction, you have to have pencils and pens and paper for people to sign up. They get left at the office. I have seen that happen over and over again. The other things you don't take into account are decorations. You want to offer a giveaway, and you didn't plan time to get pens with your name on it so you can give something away to the people that are attending as a thank-you. I have seen ridiculous things. You are having a bake sale, and there is no water or juice or coffee. You forget the silverware. You have the plates and napkins and decorations, but no plasticware. As many events and items as you can think of, people leave them off. Hugh: Laurien, people think about booking a room. It will be an evening event from 7-9. They don't think about how long it will take to set up and clean up. It's part of what an event planner says. How long will it take you to set up? What time do people arrive? It needs to be set up by 6. It will take you two hours, so you need to be there by 4. Then people have to break down. I didn't have a tear-down crew. Some of those things cost money. You can book a room for two hours, but six hours is a different cost. Laurien: Correct. A two-hour event is half a day because that's how long you need the venue. Hugh: Russ asked this earlier, and I wanted to probe into: If we are planning an event, SynerVision is planning an event in May. It's February, so we're good. March is one month. April is two months. May is three months. We have 90 days to put it together. How do you determine how much time you need to promote an event and pull the details together? Is there a magic formula? Or do you have a paradigm? Laurien: I touched on this before. 3 months is respectable. You probably already have an idea in your mind of what this is, and you have done it prior to starting as of today. You want to line up your speakers and get everybody in place ahead of time. You're getting a sense of what you need to do. I missed the last part of your question because of my cat attacking me. Sorry. Hugh: What we're doing as leaders, we think about the event. I'm trying to think about why we would want a person like you to help us. Part of what I'm thinking about is to challenge me on my budget assumptions, challenge me on my timeline the day of the event, challenge my timeline on lead time, and challenge me for thinking through my goals for the event. I might think it's just to raise money. You might say, Hugh, but part of it is to let people know more about the results of what you're doing and engage them. You need volunteers. Laurien: Exactly. Those are all the components. You're right. Someone wants to raise money as their goal. No, you want more. You want people to get excited so you gain a support base. You do need volunteers. Unless you have a huge budget and can pay for everything, you need volunteers. You need to plan set-up and break-down time, those extra things that need to happen during the event. You want to let people know at the event why they are supporting you. What are the great things you're doing? What are the wonderful things you plan to do with this money you raise? It's a return on investment for the nonprofit, not just dollar signs for the investor. It's about the impact that you have on the lives and the community or the cause that you are making a difference in a positive way for. You want people to go away feeling like, I understand why Hugh is so excited about his organization. It has a bigger vision I wasn't aware of before. Hugh: Also, we're putting together the articles for our next magazine. It's all around brand. Brand is not your logo; that's a picture. Brand is what you stand for. Every event you do represents your brand. I have attended a few local nonprofit events. Dinners that are also a pitch for money. Here is what we're doing, here is what we're doing next. Or a luncheon. One of them had trouble with technology. The videos didn't play. The mic didn't work for the presenter. The luncheon was an hour. I had to leave at an hour and a half, and the speaker wasn't done. There were variables like that. What is the start time and the end time? Have you thought about production? What will each element take? Have you scheduled a rehearsal on-site to check technology? You have offered an event checklist of five bullet points. There are lots of things like that that I would assume a person like you would help us think about these little things, that when you add them up, they help you represent yourself as a better brand. Laurien: The checklist I gave is very brief. The first five key things you need to look at. There is so much more that goes into an event. If there is a concert, you have to have a sound check. If you are doing a performance, you have rehearsals. We had two rehearsals at the venue. We had to book it for that. We tested our video and audio. The piano, the musicians, all those pieces. Those are the things. The talent is going, I am going to sing. That's great, but the behind the scenes is what makes it happen. The audience has to hear it, so it's not a disaster, but a great experience. Yes, obviously someone needs to be there to say, “As a speaker, you were supposed to have 10 minutes, and you have just gone into 20. We are way over.” The guy with the hook. Get him off stage. Gently prod him and move it along because we have an audience we will lose, especially if it's a business at a conference. These guys are busy, and we don't have time to expand what you thought was going to be an hour meeting. Hugh: Absolutely. I wedged my way in here. Russ was on a roll here. Laurien: I appreciate it. This is good. Thank you for doing that. Hugh: This checklist is a good basic guide. Laurien: I'd be happy to talk to people. When people do email, as they go through my website, there is a way to indicate your question, and I will get back to you. Russell: We have a new community here where we do Q&As. It's a great place to join. You can ask your questions about anything nonprofit-related. One thing we talked about was volunteers. What are some of the things you find are attractive to people to entice them to volunteer? What are some of the motivations that you've seen with people who volunteered to staff different charity events? Laurien: Usually the volunteers are already supportive of your cause. They are passionate about it. Sometimes they are students, and they don't have time or money to be involved in a bigger way, so it gives them the opportunity to be involved. Get to a concert, and they are helping to promote it so they don't have to buy a ticket and still see it and participate. I believe in feeding them and supporting them and saying thank you. Be grateful to everybody, including sponsors. Show your appreciation. The volunteers I have always come away saying, “Wow, I think I got so much more out of it than I gave.” That makes it rewarding for them. Some of them have found out I want to go into this field because they had that experience. Russell: Who in the organization should take point on this? Some organizations are large and have access to a lot of people. Who should be your point person inside of a nonprofit to take on this challenge? Laurien: I think the person that is the most comfortable being well-organized and can see the big picture. You have to be able to see the big picture in order to backtrack to where you are and what steps need to be taken. I really recommend that one person is their main focus. Making this event. That is their priority. All the pieces, identifying one other support person that can help do the details and the follow-through. There are so many pieces. You want registration. Who will respond? What if someone needs a refund on a ticket? There are minute details, and you need to know and have team members who meet weekly or daily to say, “Okay, where is the checklist? Who is responsible for this? Did you do it?” I have been at events. We are in the office, and our pens were across town. We had to go across the street and buy a new set because we had silent auctions and people had nothing to write with. Minor details. Who is responsible? Whose job was that to be responsible for it? It's important. Russell: What are some of the things the board can do to help support that person? If that's their one job, and the event is big, that's a big job. How can the board support that person and set the table to help that person succeed? Laurien: If you have a board, the board is supposed to be supporting the executive director to do the job and help you obtain sponsorships. They can help you find the volunteers. They can be the ones who help you take on a role and support what you need to handle. If you need catering and creators and presenters of more information about the organization, they will help. The board has to be engaged. You guys need to follow the integrity and overall vision of what your organization is about. If they are not on board, it's like pushing a boulder up the mountain. Russell: That's quite an analogy. We have a lot of mountains up here. It's hard enough getting to the top of them without pushing anything. Laurien: A team effort is important. Board, volunteers, staff. Russell: What kind of special functions would certain staff members in a nonprofit take? Are there certain tasks for events that specific staff members in an organization would be suited to tackle? Laurien: I want someone who can handle a database. As you are getting inquiries, you want to capture those email addresses. Ticket sales. We used recently Brown Paper Tickets, which helped a lot. A lot of people didn't go online to do that; they were at the door. Data is a big deal because you want to continue to build your database for events. Answering the phones. Taking registrations. Following up with your catering needs. Someone who will be responsible and capable of insurances in place. Liability insurance, you may need. Getting all the details the venue needs you to have. Talent, speakers, those kinds of things. Make sure their needs are met. I have done concerts, so you have to have a green room for your talent, and make sure the crew has their necessities. If you have audio/visual and tech people, you want them to help you with documenting your event, even if it's just a photographer. That is another way for future promotion. Your website development. Who is handling your website? Russell: Lots of moving parts for sure. One of the keys to being successful as a nonprofit is for people to know about what it is that you're doing. Are there some common pitfalls that nonprofits have when they are looking at marketing an event? What things should be included in marketing? That is a broad term.   Laurien: It's a broad term. You want to get the information out about who, what, when, and how. Who are you? Why would people want to come to your event? Not just because of the event, but why they would want to support you. What makes you unique? I have a calendar of events in front of me; why should I go to yours? Get your information out. We touched on social media earlier. It's a big deal now. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram are all important. Email is a personal touch. If you have contacts, call them, send them an email of specifics. Sometimes a private invitation to a pre-event or something to make it important to them is good. Not only what you have done, but also what your goals are. Why did you get inspired about getting involved with this cause? You want to have other people have that experience, to get ignited, to want to be involved with you and support what you're doing. Also awareness. We have had kids go door to door to hand out flyers and posters and get them in storefronts. Sponsorship is another category, but you have a lot to offer sponsors to help you as well. Hugh: Can we explore that a bit? It's convincing sponsors. That is not a donation. That is a marketing thing. Sponsors want to be in front of your audience. Do you help people think about the messages they need to communicate to sponsors, or why it's good for their business brand to be associated with your nonprofit? Laurien: I do that all the time. In fact, on the last event I did, I was fully sponsored. All of our costs were covered by in-kind sponsorships. In-kind sponsorship is easier to obtain normally. Nonprofits actually get the cash donation. You should package a sponsorship package up front when you do your strategic planning. Look at what you have to offer. People think they don't. Yes, you do. You have a venue. You have signage. You can put the banner up for the sponsor. You have an information table at your event that gives the sponsor ability to be in front of your audience to give their message. How are they tied in with you? Why are they supporting you? Let them have access to your audience to address them about why they are sponsoring you and why they care about you. There are a lot of things you can do. You have a website; give them presence there. Promote them. Let people know what they're doing. There is a lot to offer a sponsor. Printer sponsors are my favorite because you need printers. If I can get a printing company to be excited about what we're doing and get our information out there, I have someone to help me do my banners, program, flyers, and posters. Russell: All sorts of things could probably be sponsored. What are some of the common mistakes that you see nonprofits make when approaching sponsors? What are some common misconceptions that people have about what sponsorship is and what isn't? Laurien: They go in not saying the things they can offer the sponsors, not doing enough research to see what it is that would entice the sponsor to be involved. What is the sponsor looking for? Think about that. Not what you're asking them to offer you and pay for, but what you can do for them to expand what you're doing. It's like a reverse view of how to approach someone. I do that with who you're inviting to the event. What are they going to gain from being out of your event? Whether it's the purchaser of the ticket, attendee, or a sponsor, look at what you can be of service and what you can be offering to them, and not just what they can give to you. That's a mistake. Russell: What are some good examples of the type of value that a nonprofit could put on the table to entice a sponsor to come in that meets what they're looking for? Laurien: The value could be your demographic. Who are you inviting to your event? Is it 200 people or 1,000? Are they the audience that the sponsor wants to be in front of? Are they the ones who are going to help expand the sponsor's business? They're local clientele. The local supermarket may be able to provide you some of the items you need for your green room or your catering, and they want those constituents to see them and see that they're there for them. Come to our establishment versus someone else's. Banks also. If you have a bank, people don't understand who they can go to. If you have an insurance company, do you have a bank? Doctors. Massage therapists. Anything you frequent is a potential sponsor if they can be excited about what you're doing. If nothing else, if you're going to have a silent auction, that is who you will go to. Get them to contribute an item to your silent auction, and they get promotion and are donating it. They are getting their product out, and you are getting some support that helps you with your fundraising. Russell: Every sponsor is going to have a different motivation based on their business. Are there some good rules of thumb in general that a nonprofit can use when approaching a potential sponsor? What would you say are some things they should consider before approaching a potential sponsor? Laurien: I have done that recently. I walk in and let them know what the organization is, what we're doing, why it's important. We would love your support in this way. Sometimes I think instead of you telling the sponsor what you want from them, it's like getting in a conversation. How do they see themselves being able to support you and participate? Sometimes it's writing a check. I didn't expect it, but I got a check. I thought it was something else, but I got a check because that's what they wanted to do. I was pleasantly surprised. Others were a part of the chamber of commerce there. We had an event a couple months ago. I put out a senior discount deal. I said something about the organization who buys a block of 10 tickets will get the senior discount. I had five sign up right away. I had the tickets sold, the sponsors, and put their names on a banner we were already printing. It was creative, and it was a pleasant surprise. It was fun. Everyone had a good time. I think those are the things. You approach them, they are excited. I found that people want to support, but sometimes they just don't know how. If you give them options. I walked into one years ago and was asking for a silent auction item. They came back and donated toys for Santa to give away. I had no clue that was going to happen. They had them left over and needed to get rid of them. It was a blessing all the way around. Be open to being creative, and let those things come. Russell: It almost sounds like for some folks, making an ask can be a scary proposition. It almost sounds like, Hey, take a chance because you never know what sort of underlying motivation they may have. You may be pleasantly surprised at the result. Laurien: I have been quite frequently. When you have an event, a lot of people fail to do the ask. You need to have someone. If you are not the one comfortable to do the ask, find someone who is, and give them executive power. Russell: Is there any one specific person that businesses and potential sponsors are more responsive to when that ask is given? A certain staff member or board member that they respond to more than others. Laurien: I think it comes down to personality about the person who is asking and how passionate they are about the cause and how much they believe in it. If they have been touched personally themselves and have a personal story about the organization, the personal stories or testimonials are the ones that trigger the greatest response in people giving. I was the director for Medicine for Humanity for years. The difference that people's lives were changed. We had one of them who came from Uganda to speak about how their life was touched by this organization. That absolutely caused no dry eyes. Those are the stories. Maybe they physically don't do the ask, but they are telling their story, and someone says, “This is how we make a difference. This is how we need your help to do so.” Russell: As a percentage of the time that you spend presenting your program or organization, is there a good mix of people who have benefited from the work you do? How much time is devoted to them? Where do you put them in your program, if you're running one? Laurien: I'm not quite clear about this question. Russell: As you have an event, you have a program, usually the way you make presentations on some of the work you're doing. The people you're serving, how much time do you allocate in that program to have people give a testimonial in front of the audience? Laurien: It depends on your program. You don't want to take too much talking head time. You want it to be effective. Depending on the length of time, I know Hugh knows this, get the people who are the key people who will be the most powerful. Take that time. Intersperse them if you want to have more than one so they are not back to back. I would not do more than 10-15% of your time to devote to that. You want to have a good time. Even if it's a conference, get the information, what did they come there for? This is the added piece. You spice it up. Russell: I imagine with limited time, if you are putting a program together, is there a specific time in a typical program that would be the best part of the program for placement of these people to talk about the impact of the organization in their lives? Laurien: Probably halfway through. I would do the entertainment. Get them excited. If you have entertainment. If you have video presentations about your organization. Follow it with someone who can speak to what you just showed. Entertainment is wonderful. Singers, performers, dancers. Right after that, they have had the fun, maybe a silent auction, they had a break. Then come back and remember why we're here. You want a flow. You want it to reach a peak and continue, not completely go down until the finale, where you get people together. End it with something entertaining and fun. That's how I try to do it. Russell: I imagine that's tough to do especially if you don't have any experience doing that. That would require an expert who has a lot of cycles through that type of thing. Laurien: It is entertainment. No matter what it is, you need to capture the audience in some way. Whether they are there for a serious business conference or a luncheon or a cocktail party or just coffee, it's community. It's not a party, but it is. It's embracing people to come together as a community to get them excited. If one person sees someone getting excited, that's infectious. Russell: You mentioned videos. There are a lot of different things that can be done to mark an event and an organization. Is there an ideal mix as to what type of marketing materials that you produce? Laurien: It depends on the organization and your message. If you do have a quality video presentation, put it on your website. Offer it elsewhere. Do it on Facebook. Your LinkedIn. Places where people know what you're doing. If there is local TV advertising and you have a budget for that, or a radio spot, get it out there to the broader audience. It does depend on the level and the quality. I hesitate because I have been a producer in TV. If it's not a good quality, I would hesitate to put it out there. That's just me. I would encourage someone to get quality documentation of your event. Video or great photographers so that you give your best presentation. Hugh: That is one thing that people need you for. They don't think about those things after it's over. I owned a photo business at one time. After it's over, I'm as guilty as anybody, people ask me, “Did you take pictures?” I went, “Duh, no.” I am so busy doing what I do. We want to be Superman. I want to present. I want to run the event. I want to get all the people there. I want to manage the whole event. Really, I just need to be present and present when people do the recording. You can use those recordings and fundraising to promote other events. One important thing I see is when people come together, and you develop this new sense of community. It's what I call a new architecture of engagement, as people come together and are doing something together. On your event checklist, there are five items. #1 is define the goals. What do you want to accomplish here? That is so important. Why do the event? Oftentimes, I see organizations do an event with a lot of volunteers and board members, and they only bring in a dribble of money. That may not be your only goal. There might be a series of events that leads to larger funding. So one is define your goals/objectives. #2 is identify your team. It's important to have people tasked with specific things. Not just assume they will do it. #3 is create an event proposal. Everything you will do, put it there. #4 is create an event budget. That's the B word. Where is the money coming from? Maybe people say, “We can't afford that.” Don't stop there. Think about who you know that could help you fund it. You don't need to take it out of your regular funding; you could have special funding. You're right. It's in your strategy, your overall plan. You want to put this in there with enough money to do your job. #5 is set a date and book the venue. You don't want to have it all line up and find out you can't get the venue. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* Back to you, Laurien. What do you want to leave people with today? Laurien: I heard you say something earlier when people say, “I can't afford that.” Think outside the box. Have fun with it. Be creative. We go back to the strategic plan. What do you want to do? Why do you want to do this event? If you can't do it, then what can you do right now to propel what you're ultimately wanting to do? Find the people. If you don't have it, you have boards and staff. Say, “This is what I'd like to do.” Even your friends. You have no clue who whom you know will know. That space might be available. Don't give up. Don't be discouraged. Everyone can make a difference. You can get the word out about what you're doing and increase your outreach and awareness, which will ultimately increase your donor base. Russell: Thank you. Lots to think about. Lots to unpack. Grab a copy of that checklist. Get in touch with Laurien for a deeper dive. There is always more than meets the eye to these kinds of things.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Ol' Bee Gal Q&A brought to you by KeepingBackyardBees.com  Please submit your question by following this link.    Here are the questions addressed in this episode.   Feriba How do I store beeswax?  How to render and mold wax How to Clean, Melt, and Store Beeswax   Paul  Should I leave my bees honey in the hive instead of feeding sugar through winter?   Betsy Why did my hives abscond?   Ken   After we had weather below freezing I lost all of my bees, how can I avoid this in the future?   Carla Why should you paint your bee box?   Khalid What are the best 3 brands of honey?   Eddy If bees don’t need to create comb (in a flow hive) would that give them more energy and resources for making honey?   Question from Russell What should beekeepers be working on over the Winter months?

Why Millenials and GenZ are disconnected with nonprofits today? Pradeep Kandimalla, Founder and Chief Executive of SAHAVE™ is so passionate about social change he has dedicated his life to serving others. Spending twenty years in the nonprofit world and witnessing their struggles to fulfill their missions spurred him to build The Platform for Social Change to bring about social change worldwide. Not only does SAHAVE keep him hopping, his beautiful daughters keep him busy as well. Oh, and mom has high expectations for him too. Ever since watching “Schindlers List,” a significant impact has been made on his career and inspired a mission to work towards a greater good around worldwide. He has been working on and refining the concept of SAHAVE since 2015 and now it is time to make this disruptive technology that is going to shift how nonprofit and communities can come together to provide service, available to the future world. Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. It's another Tuesday with Hugh and Russell. As you expect, we have a guest who has profound knowledge for you. A great vision. He is a modest man, but he has a big heart and a big vision. Russell David Dennis, from Denver, around Denver, you're not actually in Denver. You're in those big old Rocky Mountains. How are you, sir? Russell Dennis: Hey, I'm out here in Aurora, a stone's throw from Denver, Colorado. Today, our guest is a man who has come up with a way to help us engage with one another better. Pradeep Kandimalla, welcome, and thank you for joining us. He is the founder of Sahave. Pradeep, tell us a little bit about yourself.   Pradeep Kandimalla: Thank you. It was a great introduction. It's been a year that I met Hugh. Learning every time I meet him. Thank you. I'm an electronics engineer with a background of technology. As part of my project for my Bachelor's, I did an affordable electronic device, a PC. I did a Masters in Business Administration, specialized in operations management from the University of Central Oklahoma, mainly focusing on sciences, how applications can be tailored to usage and businesses around us. That was my focus. For the last 25 years, I was working in the packing industry, implementing enterprise planning operations systems for public sector, private sector, nonprofit sector, multi-million-dollar projects, managing different levels of themes from technology to operations. That is my background. Russell: What people don't know about is that you have a real love for social change. You have managed to marry your passion for technology with your passion for social change to make a big difference. You created something called Sahave. It is a place for people to come together and connect and make a difference. Tell me about Sahave, what it is and why you started it. Pradeep: The meaning of it. Saha in Sanskrit means “community coming together for service.” English word – we. I mixed these two words together. I had a dream ever since I watched Schindler's List. When I saw Oscar Schindler save lives during World War II by doing business- in my view, he is the first social entrepreneur making an impact in community during a crisis. That is how I view that movie. It made a significant impact on me. Ever since that day, it was my intention to use my skills to build something for the benefit of community. Out of that desire and passion that I have been working with nonprofits at ground level who serve communities. They suffer a lot with technology. There is no one to help them. I have noticed that, and I have tried to provide solutions in many ways in my volunteering space for them. I couldn't get them what I think as an operational head, it's not everything. That's how I started Sahave as a social enterprise, actively developing a benefit corporation. It's a nonprofit, a benefit corporation, what I am developing Sahave as. It's been two years now. We officially started in January 2017. That was a journey since then. It's been two years in creating this social enterprise. Russell: You said something that's really important. I don't know how many of us that work in the nonprofit field think about this, but this saves lives. The work that nonprofits do, it's life-saving in a lot of instances. That is no small thing. This platform that you created with a space to connect hearts and minds, I will be telling you folks how to get connected, it's something that we have seen that's so marvelous that we want to get that out there to everybody so you have a chance to use it. In particular, this platform helps us to engage with millennials and Gen Z folks. There are a lot of differences in the way that boomers like Hugh and myself think about nonprofits and the way that millennials and Gen Z, younger people, think about nonprofits and think about making a difference. What is your experience, Pradeep, with engaging with millennials and Gen Zs? How has that been? Pradeep: That's a nice question. My focus with Sahave is to get the service model built in within our next generation, to be part of charities. As part of it, Sahave's mission is two-fold. One is to mobilize a social movement to change lives and enable that social movement with a cloud-based global platform for communities to thrive. These are the two things coming together. The movement is first, and enabling that movement with support is very important with millennials and Gen Zs. If you think of empathy as a big thing that is required for charity or any kind of service, before millennials, empathy was naturally built into humans in previous generations because we have faced hunger. We know what hunger is. We have seen different cycles in our lives. World War II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War. Name any war. We have seen the Iran War, Iraq War, different cycles in our lives. We built that empathy naturally. Today, if you look at charity organizations, 90% of them are run by people older than 40-50. That natural empathy in them has created those charity organizations that support our communities at the local level that governments cannot do through social services. We definitely need to try and spread these charities even for our future generations. We need to have the next generation leadership come on board, continue our legacy of services that people today are doing in the community. That is key. We need to make an impact on millennials and Gen Zs and teach them in their way how to provide service and build an empathy in them. They still have empathy, but their nature of empathy triggers a different way than ours. Before millennials, it was a natural empathy; there is no trigger required. Millennials are more socially inclined, but empathy needs some kind of trigger in every moment. That is what this two-fold mission of Sahave is intended to build: to create a movement with a system that enables it together. Russell: Where is it that some of us in the older generation, as time has passed we sort of lost our ability to connect, to pass on that empathy? Are there some language differences or some thought differences that have hindered our ability to pass that on and make that connection? Pradeep: I wouldn't put it that way. We did pass on that connection. They still have empathy. But the trigger points are different. Their thinking mindset. For everything, they look at real time. The impact has to be transparent to them in what they are creating. It wasn't a need for us before. If we just know somewhere in the world something is happening, we know naturally, “Sorry, man, let's do something,” even though we aren't expecting that transparency. With millennials and Gen Zs, they do have this empathy, but the empathy requires a different kind of trigger. Transparency is key for them. Without transparency, they don't feel the impact of the creator. They don't see a next time to do the same service. For us, it was totally different. We just do the service. Forget about transparency and accountability, what we have handed over to somebody else. Russell: What are some of the ways that Sahave helps us to do that? Pradeep: Very good question. Sahave is a platform that we are building. It is a technology that is pending right now. Couple of principles I would say there. My intention to create Sahave is to provide cutting-edge technology at low cost for nonprofit organizations for operations, to focus their mission, to maximize their impact with their donor base. Luckily, today's technology has provided that advantage because the new way to develop an enterprise application is disruptive right now. Think about transportation services right now. It has disrupted the way technology has enabled us. These apps are connecting individual to individual for low cost. Very efficiently providing the services. Sahave is a service platform enabling individuals. People come together to help each other save lives with that disruptive technology and innovation we have built. Just building a technology is not good enough. With my experience and seven years of research and working with millennials to understand their need to be part of some movement. That is why our first part of the mission is creating a movement that enables the heart to do service, and then give them support to strengthen their movement with technology, which brings us transparency and is low cost for nonprofits to operate this platform. Russell: It's not always easy to bring the mind and technology together like that. You've been at this for a while. What has kept you motivated to bring this movement together with technology over such a long period of time? Pradeep: It's 25 years. Oskar Schindler has made a significant impact on me. The way he created a for-profit business manufacturing with cheap labor during World War II- cheap labor was Jews in camps. He created that selling to Germans. Doing that, he saved lives. He learned that. Initially, when he started the business, he didn't know that. When he went through the process, he learned he was saving lives. Bringing bribes to the German army to get cheap labor on board, he was thinking he was making profit. He never counted how much bribes he was giving out. He lost all his fortune. In 1945, after World War II ended, he saved about 200 lives. He said, “I wish I would have made more money to save more lives.” He lost all his fortune. He was a rich person at that time. What he said at the end, I wish I had more money to save more lives, has created in my mindset every impact has to be multiplied. It's not like every charity is suffering with donations. It's just like if you think as an individual, charities are living paycheck to paycheck on a monthly basis from donors. If they don't have a paycheck that month, their services are dying. We need to create a platform that enables nonprofits to fight against the social issues that are ever growing for us: poverty, hunger. Name any social issue that is growing. Charities are only doing a miniscule part of it today. My goal is to minimize that and strengthen nonprofits as part of this platform. That is the reason we are creating it as a benefit corporation, which is to give back while creating an impact in our platform. This enables nonprofits to sustain even longer. Russell: It's about sustainability. What we are talking about is social profit. It can't always be measured in terms of dollars. It's measured in other terms, but shifts in humans lives. I commend you for that. Nonprofit is a term that can be misunderstood. I think people have the misconception that nonprofit means you don't make any money or have any extra money. A good friend of ours points out that nonprofit is a tax status, not a business strategy. Making a difference is what it's all about. I think that nonprofits and philanthropy is there because they are just certain things your ordinary profit-making enterprises and the government aren't set up to do. It's that place where everything is married together so that it can actually go out and make a difference. I find that our problems are so complex now that it takes all hands on deck. Social benefit organizations are that fourth thing: the nonprofits were the third sector for a while. It's that fourth piece that has come in to fill the gaps. In your journey, as you were putting it together, tell us a little bit about how you came to the decision to create a benefit corporation, how you came to the conclusion that this was the right structure to use in order to make this difference. Pradeep: Excellent. One of the major problems with nonprofits today is they are faced with local rules and regulations. Every country and state is different. Having a global nonprofit organization, even Red Cross is not a global entity. If you look at American Red Cross, it is a separate entity from Indian Red Cross. They have to be defined in their jurisdictions and play according to the rules and regulations of that separate entity. That is the first challenge I was thinking about when I created Sahave. I can't be global. This should be global. My vision is to connect people to save lives. It doesn't matter. We are a global community, a global economy, globally connected on platforms. We know Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Google. It's all global. Humans are connected well. Sahave should also be a movement globally making an impact and connecting. With that intention, I created this as a for-profit. I had to make stakeholders of Sahave to be aligned with our mission and vision. Every for-profit organization has a for-profit motive for stakeholders. Keeping the mission and vision as they come on board is very important for me. I don't want them to be deviating from our mission and vision in the eyes of making profit. People first, and then profit following. That was my intention in creating benefit corporation. I have been studying this for the last three years. I was lucky enough to get a partner like Kings Council and Cross Foundation who knows how to set up a benefit corporation. I was looking for somebody to develop it, keeping this mode of people first and profit next. If I have that as part of the DNA, it's a success for me. That was the intention. Russell: That is the power of the form and why I think it's taken hold. Social profit is about people as well as materials and money to solve problems. This is disruptive. I think of Airbnb. I think of Uber. Now we have Sahave, here in place to help make a difference and help us connect with one another in ways we weren't able to, and providing us an opportunity to be more global in our approach to things. That is something. Hugh: Hey Russ, let's spell that to make sure people get to the right website. Sahave. Thank you. There is a lot of information on that website. Sahave.org. Russell: It's a great place to go. We want to help bring this to people, help people find this, enroll in it, use it. That is the best way to get a feel for it. It's just a wonderful platform for people to come together. Prior to your building this platform, what is it that is missing for your typical nonprofit to attract millennials and Gen Z workers or supporters? Pradeep: As you mentioned, without money, there is no operations. That is a big issue with millennials. They should see the money there. What you mentioned about charity organizations as a third sector today, they don't see that money. That was a primary factor for them: getting attracted to other for-profit organizations. With what we have created on this platform is we created our own currency, which is called Kindness Currency. It's our trademark. There is a way somebody can exchange kindness within them with some other person right next to them and earn Kindness. It all goes back to karma. What you give is what you get back. Here, with Kindness currency, you are measuring your own social impact in the community. The person, every individual, millennials are looking for that feeling in them. How do I measure my kindness that I have done and the impact I created? With that intention is why we have created Kindness Currency, which gives them an opportunity to exchange kindness with anybody, neighbor helping neighbor. That neighbor doesn't have to help that neighbor back. They can help others. It's a pass-on method. It allows them to build that kind of social impact without using money, using your time that you're giving to kindness. For example, in yoga, you don't calculate time. The life of a person is in terms of number of breaths. You could take in one second three breaths, and then you could take one breath. A person has the number of breaths defined when they are born. Kindness should connect to that because that is what is directly connecting the time in your life with materialistic life, what we are doing today. As a platform, Sahave is getting you back as a human within you doing service to each other. Russell: That has been a challenge for nonprofits to try to measure that impact. Social profit is a term that the author David Grant came up with when he wrote a book about it. Hugh talks about what we call return on life. I call it return on influence, return on impact to stay in the ROI frame. There are a lot of nonprofits that have difficulty framing that and showing that impact. It looks like Sahave is a vehicle for helping us to measure impact beyond dollars and cents, which is the biggest challenge for nonprofits. Am I on track? What do you think of that? Pradeep: You are perfectly on track. Humanity coming out of heart is perfect for Sahave because that is how you can create charity in community. That is the movement. Sahave is creating within every individual to have that kind of feeling at every moment making it real time for them. It's key for the next generation. Russell: Our primary problem I would surmise has been communication. What would you say are the most common barriers to communication between the generations? Pradeep: Communication is a big thing. As long as we have existed as humans, we have had this problem. Every generation thinks differently. It's tough to put ourselves into their mindset. When we have defined our own lifestyle in certain ways and never previous generations, the majority of them, they don't focus on changing themselves looking in the future. I'm saying just the majority of them, not everyone. There is still a population of that generation knowing what's important to learn. That transformation is always happening between industrial revolutions from generation one to two, two to three, three to four. We have made certain changes in our community. From ground level to government level. It's a continuous learning process. My feeling when it comes to communications. That gap will happen only when someone can peek into others' hearts with their view. Russell: It's a question of being open to a different point of view. What are some ways that we could do that today? There are a lot of different nonprofit leaders listening to this. Some are older. They're my age and Hugh's age. What are two or three things that you would tell a baby boomer that she/he could do that would help shift them in the direction of being more effective at communicating and connecting with millennials? Pradeep: I'm in your shoes, Russell, when I started this journey. I identified this problem. I started going to interacting with them. What does their mindset look like? They are more gamers. We know that. But at the same time, if you get involved with them and play a game, you will learn their behavior in that game. They are naturally connected to that game. Our generation, we just see it as a thing. We never connect ourselves to that, but they do. They even change their mindset based on that. They think everything else outside is the same. Getting them to their natural instinct is difficult. If we can tap into their mindset and understand why they are not doing that, and if they intend to do something, for example a charity or a donation, a dollar donation to homeless- We just did this interesting project with millennials in Chicago. We picked a homeless woman. Our goal was to raise $100 only from millennials and Gen Zs on that day. We went to ask millennials for $1 or $2, not much. What experience would we get from them? What is their mindset? They came forward and gave us a lot of information about “I will give you a dollar, but I don't know how you're going to use it. I don't trust you. I know you will give this to a homeless shelter, but I don't know how they use this dollar. I need that transparency. How do I get it?” We learned that. We failed in that project the first day. We went back again the next day. How do we provide the transparency to them? We approached them and enrolled them on this Google form. We collected $1 from each of them. We provided a complete transparency of every donation that is being collected and how we have utilized the dollar, delivered it to the homeless shelter. The homeless shelter was kind enough to give information about how they are using that to buy food for them. We provided every moment information to them. Information has flowed to them. At the end, after that project was completed, we went back to ask for feedback. “Wow, I see my dollar how it has been utilized in this transparency.” The platforms, not a lot of millennials are on those crowdfunding platforms today because transparency is lacking. That is how we learn about them with this project. Russell: That's good. Are there ways nonprofits can bridge the gap between their expectations and the expectations of the millennials/Gen Z supporters and prospects? Building trust sounds like the crux of it. Are there some other ways that they can function to move closer, to bridge that gap?   Pradeep: The biggest thing I am thinking is we have to have the leadership transformation in charities. We need them to come on board and continue the service. How do we do that is a big question mark still for me. I'm still learning about that. A couple of things I observe about them today is they are more looking at for-profit money-making organizations as they carry a cross as part of their growth. They don't see that in nonprofits today. To utilize their skills, marketing requires a different kind of technical skill today. It's not the same anymore as it used to be. It requires a mix of technical skills and the different mindset to run a successful marketing campaign today. Traditionally, marketing has been non-technical. That gives you an example of what skills we are looking at as individuals. What is their growth? How will their careers build if what they are doing is important to them? How do we address that as nonprofits? I don't know. Russell: Every favorite radio station is WIIFM, What's In It For Me? That can be shifted to What's In It From Me? Part of what Sahave does is it creates a way to really engage people. To engage people, you have to give them what they want. It's that simple, whatever type of business or organization. Give people what they want. It's finding out how to do that. I think one of the big differences today versus my youth is that the days going down the career path and starting with a job and working for 40 years and going off into the sunset to retire are over. There are multiple career changes. People want to expand. I'm seeing people who want to expand. Be more, do more, do work that matters. You can't do that sitting in one place. What type of experience can you deliver to those people, whether they are your donors, whether they serve on your board, whether they are your staff or employees? They are there because what nonprofits need from people is time, talent, and treasure. If somebody loves what you're doing enough to give you one, they will probably give you the other two if it's in their means. It's having that conversation and making that connection. Maybe we're falling down on that. What do you see are the biggest benefits of finding ways to bridge those gaps in where we are now and where we could go? Pradeep: Career paths are critical. As an individual with a technology background, I see artificial intelligence is going to play a bigger role in our community, not as technology. I'm talking about a community level. It's going to play a bigger role by 2030. It disrupts the way we live today. How we are living today is not going to be the same in 2030. We need an alternative for humans to connect to each other in that environment. This is just a theory. What kind of technology, artificial intelligence will disrupt in our community? We don't know. We just know what is coming. How it will impact how we are living, we don't know. We can just speculate. It could be worse. It could be better. For example, unemployment will grow definitely. What will the growth rate be in 2030? A lot of information is happening. A lot of low-cost methods of implementing technology are coming out. Which is going to disrupt the way so far we have been living within a community where we are making wealthy social profits and for-profit segments. We are living in that at every moment today. What is in it for me in terms of money is a priority today. That nature when a community changes from that demand for money goes down and there is no demand. Our essential things to live are food, shelter, and clothes. That is all. It comes down to those three things. When you can't make money, how will you get those three things? We can't imagine today in this environment. To put ourselves in 2030 and what we will face and how we will train and educate our future generations to be ready for that, I don't see that happening today. Preparing ourselves with technology, making changes in our communities. We are not putting them in the right path for the future. That will be a big challenge. Especially with the mindset, what is in it for me in terms of benefits of money only has a significant impact on charities. Russell: This is what I love about this platform. In looking around, there are places where people have meetings of the mind. There is a magnificent blog area. There is a place for people to come together and have conversations and connect. This is the way to move forward. It's about collaboration, connection, getting out of the old thought paradigm and working in a silo and becoming part of a community. It's about community. If we can find a way to make it global, that will solve our problems. The nature of hunger, the nature of homelessness, the nature of disease, these things that are persistent as such that it takes all of us working together to try to make a big difference. Pradeep: Exactly. That is the collaboration strategy on Sahave. That is the reason I want it to be a global platform. Collaborative platform. This integrates kindness without conversion into dollars. There is an exchange of kindness happening here, which has an economic impact for charities and for communities. It really depends on how this Kindness Currency will transform in the next 12 years by 2030. My intention for introducing kindness as an exchange within charity arena will bring us back into what we are as humans and our necessities at the bottom level. That was my intention of introducing kindness currency. Russell: It's important to have us. That is where that struggle has been to measure what matters. It's all about making things better for all of humanity. This is why nonprofits are here. We're here to make a difference and impact the community and help us bring people together. That's what it's all about. Having a place and a method to come together and talk about it is what Sahave provides on a global scale. I am very excited about it. Sahave.org. Go there and sign up. Pradeep: Thank you. Sahave. You can also contact me directly at Pradeep@sahave.org. That is my email address. If you have any questions about how to use this platform for nonprofit organizations and also for individuals. I am always there to- Hugh: Pradeep, thank you for this information today, and Russell for such a great interview. We have given out the website, Sahave.org. We want people to go there and join. There is more to be gained by working together than trying to work in silos. I think it's primarily people don't have the experience, the knowledge, or the tools to be able to move into the collaborative space in a substantial way. Russell's wisdom and the conversations we have had with people is to find out what other people are interested in and what they want. Russell, I have learned a lot from you. Pradeep, I want to learn how to roll my r's. You bring forth a sense of calm as you're talking. You're all in on this venture. SynerVision is helping you launch and supporting this platform because we know it will bring some energy to all the nonprofits that are struggling in this area of connecting communications. *Sponsor message from WordSprint* Pradeep, what do you want to leave people with before Russell closes out this really great interview? Pradeep: I want to mention our relationship with SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We can provide some grants through our relationship to nonprofits who are interested in working with Sahave and building this platform and using this and providing some feedback to us. Very nice questions, Russell on how we bridge this gap between millennials; as you have heard me, I am not 100%. There are always gaps. As you grow, you learn more gaps, then you fill them in. I am looking for nonprofit organizations out there who would like to work with me in building this Sahave platform in our relationship with SynerVision Leadership Foundation to provide some grants to use our platform and build it to close that gap somewhat, which is our critical need in this time. Hugh: Thank you for that. We are accepting donations to support you. We are giving away a few scholarships for people to get in there and try that. It's good for you and your team to be involved. Reach out to us after you register. pradeep@sahave.org, he will respond to you. Pradeep, thank you for being a guest today on The Nonprofit Exchange. This is an important product you're producing. Pradeep: Thank you very much, Hugh. Thank you for your time, Russell. Russell: Thank you. As always, thank you to those folks who join us and support us regularly. We look forward to seeing you again. Don't forget the name, Sahave.org. You will be seeing a lot more of them and a lot more of us. Thanks as always. Thank you for making 2018 a spectacular year for SynerVision. I'm looking forward to 2019, where we can go out there and make a difference in the lives of people. As Pradeep so eloquently put it, in a way that I don't always remember and I don't always think about, our work is saving lives out there. Thank you, stick with it, and we will be here in 2019. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A special conversation I had on stage at the Traffic Secrets event with a friend and a student Nic Fitzgerald. On this episode Russell talks to his childhood friend, Nick Fitzgerald about helping him go from being in a technician position to being in an entrepreneurial position. Here are some of the inspiring thing in this episode: Find out how Russell found out his childhood friend was in desperate need of help and what he offered to do for him. How Nick was able to make to Funnel Hacking Live via credit card, and then spent $1800 on a program without telling his wife. And why being on the program helped Nick be able to ask a client for $25,000 on a project, when that was his previous yearly income. So listen here to find out how Russell was able to help Nick achieve his entrepreneurial dreams. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson and I want to welcome you to the Marketing Secrets podcast. The next two episodes are a really special one. For our Two Comma club X members and our inner circle members I did an event recently, some of you guys heard me talk about it. It was a traffic secrets event, where I’m getting all the material ready for the book, and start teaching this stuff. Anyway, it was really, really fun and as I was doing the presentations, the night before when I was doing all the prep work I had this thought. I was like, I want to bring up somebody on stage and it’s somebody who was a friend I grew up with in elementary school, and junior high, and high school, someone who was down on their luck, who was really, really struggling. About a year ago I saw him post something on Facebook and I reached out, and this interview is happening about a year later. During the process he tells his story about what happened and the transformation and the change that’s happened by being involved inside our Clickfunnels, Funnel Hacker community. So I wanted to share that with you as part of the event, so this first half is going to be Nick kind of telling his story and it’s going to be the story from the bottom of the barrel where they were, they literally made $25,000 a year for 3 years in a row and then the transformation to this year, they’ll do well over six figures. And that’s going to be this first podcast. And the second podcast episode is, I’m actually going to be doing, I did a live coaching session with him on stage, and I want to share that with you as well because I think there’s a lot of things for you specifically that you can get from this episode too. So the next few episodes are going to be sharing this really fun conversation that happened late night at the Traffic Secrets event with my friend Nick Fitzgerald, and if you think that name sounds familiar, I have talked about him before on this podcast. In fact, a little over a year ago I did a podcast episode called being a rainmaker that was a personalized podcast that I sent to Nick specifically to help him with what he was struggling with at the time. So anyway, I wanted to share this with you because it will take you full circle to show you kind of the progress and the momentum and things that are happening in his life, and I think it will be encouraging for you to hear the story because no matter where you are in your journey right now, if you are struggling, doing well, or if you’re somewhere in between, there are parts of this story that will resonate with you. And in the second episode where I coach Nick I think will help everybody as well. So with that said, let’s jump right in and have some fun. I want to introduce you to my friend Nick Fitzgerald. Alright so I want to set the tone for the next hour or so of what the game plan is. So I have a first initial question that I’m curious about with everyone here. I’m curious, who since they joined the Two Comma Club X program has had some kind of experience with Mr. Nick Fitzgerald? That’s powerful, I’m going to talk about why in a little bit, but very, very cool. So some of the back story behind this, and then we’re going to introduce him up, and when he comes up I want you guys to go crazy and scream and cheer and clap, because it will be good, and then I want him to sit down so we’ll be the same height, which will be good, it’ll be fun. So some of the back story, I actually met Nick the very first time in elementary school, and even in elementary school he was a foot and a half taller than me, which is amazing. He was like 6 ft 2 in like third grade, it was amazing. But we knew each other when we were dorky little kids and going up through elementary school we were both doing our things, and we didn’t have a care in the world and everything’s happening. And as we got older he kept getting taller, I stopped growing. And then we got into high school and he kept growing and he joined the basketball team. I didn’t keep growing so I went downstairs in the basement, literally, at our high school in the basement they call it the rubber room, and it’s this room that smells like, I don’t even know, but it’s under the gym. So he would go upstairs and fans would show up and people would cheer for them, and scream at their games. And all the girls would come to the games. And we’d go down in the rubber room by ourselves and cut weight and put on our sweats and lose weight and we’d jump rope and sweat like crazy. And we’d sit there, and I remember one day after working out for two hours pouring in sweat, I had my plastic gear on and my sweats on top of that, my hoodie and my hoods and we got the wrestling mats, and literally rolled ourselves up in the wrestling mats to keep the heat in, and we laid there and we were so hot. And I could hear the basketball players in the gym up above having so much fun and people cheering for them. And all the girls were there. And I was like, “Why are we not playing basketball?” It doesn’t make any sense. But during that time, obviously we were in two different kind of worlds, and we didn’t really connect that much, and then we left our separate ways. And I didn’t hear from him for years and years and years. And then do you guys remember Facebook when it first came out? The first time you got it and you log in and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I can connect with people.” And you start searching the friends you know and then you find their friends and you spend a day and a half connecting with every person you’ve ever remembered seeing in your entire life? Do you guys remember that? So I did that one night, I connected with everybody. Everyone in high school, everyone in junior high, or elementary, everyone in every stage of my life, as many as I could think of. And then I was like, I think that’s everybody. Okay, I’ve connected with everybody. And one of those people that night was Nick. And then, but I didn’t say hi, I just friend requested and he requested back and I’m like, cool we’re connected. And then after that I got kind of bored with Facebook for like a year or so. Then a little while later I found out you can buy ads on it and I was like, what, this is amazing. So we started buying ads and everything is happening. And it’s crazy. And then what happened next, I actually want Nick onstage to tell you this story because I want you to hear it from both his perspective and my perspective, I think it’d be kind of interesting. Yeah, I want him to come up first. So let’s do this real quick. As you guys know Nick has been a super valuable part of this community since he came in. I’m going to tell the story about how he got here and some of the craziness of how he signed up when he probably shouldn’t have and what’s been happening since then, because I know that you guys have all been part of that journey and been supporting him. How many of you guys are going to his event that’s happening later this week? He just keeps giving and serving, he’s doing all the right things, he’s telling his story, he’s doing some amazing stuff. So my plan now is I want to talk about the rest of the story. I want to tell you guys what I told him a year ago and then I want to tell you guys my advice for him moving forward, because I feel like it’s almost in proxy. I wish I could do that with every one of you guys. Just sit down here and coach you. But I feel like he’s at a stage where some of you guys aren’t to where he’s at yet and some of you are past that, and some of you guys are right where he’s at, and I feel like the advice that I really want to give him, will help you guys at all different levels. So that’s kind of the game plan. So with that said, let’s stand up and point our hands together for Mr. Nick Fitzgerald. Alright, this has some good music. That was like music from high school. Look how tall I am. I feel like….okay, so I had him find this post because I wanted to actually share a little piece of it. So this, I’m going to share a piece of it, I want to step back to where you were at that time in your life. So this was July 7, 2017, so what was that a year and a half ago, ish? So July 7, 2017 there was a post that said, “Long post disclaimer. I hate posting this, blah, blah, blah.” So at the time my family was about to go on a family vacation. We’re packing up the bags and everything, and you know how it is, you do a bunch of work and then you stop for a second and your wife and kids are gone and you’re like, pull out the phone, swap through the dream 100 and see what’s happening.  And somehow this post pops up in my feed and I see it, I see Nick my buddy from 20+ years ago and I’m reading this thing and my heart sinks for him. Some of the things he says, “I hate posting things like this, but I felt like need to for a while. Being poor stinks. For those friends of mine who are ultra conservative and look down consciously or not, on people like me, I can honestly tell you that I’m not a lazy free loader who wants something for nothing. I’m not a deadbeat who wants Obama or whoever to blame now, to buy me a phone. I’m not a lowlife trying to get the government to pay for my liposuction. I’m not a druggie who eats steak and lobster for dinner with my food stamps. I’m a father of four, a husband, someone who lost everything financially, including our home when the time came to have your healthcare in place or to get fined, I went through the process. “Based on my family size and income, we were referred to the state to apply for those programs. We couldn’t get coverage for ourselves to the exchange in other places, we qualified for Medicaid. After the process was complete, the state worker suggested we try to get some other help, some food stamps.” It kind of goes on and on and on and he says, “In 2016 I made $25000. $25,000 plus our tax returns for the previous year. So a family of 6 living on $25,000 a year is being audited for receiving too much help, too much assistance.” And it kind of goes on and on and on with that. He says, “I’ve never abused drugs or alcohol, I’ve never even tried them. I’m just a guy trying to live the American dream and provide for his family. It’s unfortunate that we look down on those who are trying to better our lives, even if it leaves them from receiving help from assistance in place to help them. Look down on me if you want, I don’t care. I know the truth. My family is healthy and sheltered and that’s all that matters. I don’t wish these trials on anyone else…” and it kind of goes on from there. So I want to take you back to that moment, what was, talk about what you were experiencing and what you were going through during that time. Nick: I didn’t expect this. I’m a friendly giant, but I’m a big boob too. Back at that time, I had started what I thought was, I started my entrepreneurial journey. I was working in film full time, working 12, 14, 16 hour days making $200 a day, just killing myself for my family. Going through the process of, I’d lost my job because I wasn’t going to hit my sales, I was a financial advisor, and I wasn’t going to hit my sales numbers. So you know, my ticket was stamped. So I said okay, I’m going to do my own thing. And in the course of all that, it was time to get your health insurance and those things, and I went through the proper channels, like I felt like I should. And I was referred to the government for the programs, based on the numbers. And as a provider, a father, an athlete competitor, I felt like a failure. We’ve all, when you have to rely on somebody else , or somebody else tells you, “Hey, we don’t think you can do this on your own, come over here and we’ll take care of you.” That’s basically what I was told. So it was hard to accept that and to live with that reality. So we did, and I worked hard and it was a blessing really, to not have to worry about how much health care costs or have some of the things to supplement to feed our family and stuff. So it was great and it was wonderful. But then I got the email from the state saying, “Hey, you’re being audited. We’re just looking at things and we’re not sure. You’ve been getting too much help.” So at that point I’m just sitting there frustrated because I’m working my butt off, just trying to make things happen, become someone involved in the film community in Utah. And I was, and everyone knew me, and I had a reputation, but I still was a nobody in the eyes of the government. So I went to Facebook to whine, looking for what I wanted, which was a pat on the back, “There, there Nick, you’re doing…we know you’re a good dude and you’re working hard.” That kind of thing, and I did… Russell: I was reading the comments last night. “Oh you’re doing a good job man. Good luck.” Everyone like babying him about how tough life can be. Nick: So I got what I wanted, but it still didn’t change anything. I still had to submit my last two years of tax returns and all of the pay that I’d got and everything like that, so they could look at our case number, not Nick, Leisle, Cloe,Ewen, Alek, William. So it was just one of those things. I got what I wanted, then comes Russell to give me what I needed, which was…. Russell: I saw that and I’m like packing the kids bags and everything and I was like, “ah, do I say something?” I don’t want to be that guy like, “Hey, 20 years ago…” and I was like, ah, I kept feeling this. Finally I was like, “hey man, I know we haven’t talked in over 20 years…” This was on Facebook messenger, “we hadn’t talked in like 20 years. I saw your post today and it sucks. And I know what’s wrong, and I can help. But at the same time, I don’t want to be that guy and I don’t want to step on any toes. I know we haven’t talked in 20 years, I have no idea if this is even appropriate. But I know what’s wrong, I can help you. And no, this is not some cheesy MLM I’m trying to pitch you on. But if you’re interested in some coaching, I know what’s wrong.” And I kind of waited and then I started packing the bags again and stuff like that. I’m curious of your thoughts initially as you saw that. Nick: It’s funny because my phone was kind of blowing up with the comments. So I would hear the little ding and I would check. And then I saw that it was a message from Russell, and we had said like, “Hey, what’s up.” And had a few tiny little small talk conversations, but nothing in depth personal. So I saw that he sent a message, so I’m like, “Sweet.” So I look at it, and I was half expecting, because I knew he was successful, I didn’t know about Clickfunnels per se. I knew he had something going on that was awesome, but I didn’t know what it was. So I was wondering, “I wonder what he’s going to say, what he has to say about things?” But I read it and it was funny because when you said, “I don’t want to overstep my bounds. It’s been a long time, I don’t want to step on toes.” Kind of thing, Russell, we all know his athletic accolades and stuff. I was a great basketball player too, I was in the top 200 players in the country my senior year and stuff like that. So I’ve been coachable and played at high levels and been coached by high level guys. So when I read it and he said, “I know what’s wrong and I can help you.” I was just like, “Yes.” That was my reaction. I just did the little, um, fist pump, let’s do this. So I replied back and I thanked him for reaching out and stuff, and I just said, I think I even said, “I’m coachable. I will accept any guidance.” And things like that. Because up until that point in my life, especially in sports, if a coach showed me something, I would do it the way he did, and I would kick the other dude’s butt. I didn’t care. I played against guys who made millions of dollars in the NBA. I dunked, I posterized on Shawn Marion when he was at UNLV my freshman year of college. I started as a freshman in a division one school in college. So I would take, I’ve always been that kind of, I would get that guidance, that direction, I can put it to work. So I was just like, “Dude, Mr. Miyagi me.” I’m 8 days older than him, so I’m like, “young grasshopper, yes you can teach me.” That kind of thing. So I welcomed it and I was excited. I had no idea, because again I didn’t know what he did. I just knew he had a level of success that I didn’t have. And if he was willing to give me some ideas, I was going to hear him out for sure. Russell: It was fun, because then I messaged him back. I’m packing the car and Collette’s like, “We gotta go, we gotta go.” I was like, ah, so I get the thing out and I was like, “This is the deal. I’m driving to Bear Lake, it’s like a six hour drive. I’m going to give you an assignment and if you do it, then I’ll give you the next piece. But most people never do it, so if you don’t that’s cool and I’ll just know it’s not worth your time. But if it’s really worth your time, do this thing. I need you to go back and listen to my podcast from episode one and listen to as many episodes as possible, and if you do that I’ll make you a customized episode just for you telling you exactly what’s wrong and how to fix it. But you have to do that first. “And I’m not telling you this because I’m on some ego trip, but just trust me. The problem is not your skill set, you  have mad skills, you’re good at everything. It’s all a problem between your ears. If we can shift that, we can shift everything else.” Then I jumped in my car and took off and started driving for six hours. And then the next day, or a day later you’re like, “I’m 14 episodes in.” he was still listening to the crappy one’s, according to Steven Larsen. The Marketing In Your Car, he was probably thinking, “This is the worst thing I’ve ever heard, ever.” But he did it. I said do it, he did it. And he kept doing it and doing it, and so two days into my family vacation I had Norah, you guys all know Norah right. She’s the coolest. But she won’t go to bed at night, she’s a nightmare. Don’t let that cute face trick you, she’s evil. So I’m like, I can’t go to sleep, so finally I was like, I’m going to plug her in the car and drive around the lake until she falls asleep. So I plug her in the car, strap her in and I start driving. And I’m like, this could be a long, long thing. She’s just smiling back here. I was like ugh. I’m like you know what, I’m going to do my episode for Nick. So I got my phone out, I clicked record and for probably almost an hour, it was an hour. I’m driving around the lake and I explain to him what I see. Did anyone here listen to that episode? I’m curious. I’m going to map out really quick, the core concept. Because some of you guys may be stuck in this, and the goal of this, what I want to do is I want to map this out, and then what’s funny is last year at Bear Lake, so a year later we had this thing where I was like, we should do a second round where I do a year later, this is the advice now. And I wrote a whole outline for it and I totally never did it. So I’m going to go through that outline now, and kind of show him the next phase. So you cool if I show kind of what I talked about? Nick: For sure. Russell: Alright, so those who missed the podcast episode, who haven’t been binge listening, you’ve all failed the test, now you must go back to episode number one, listen to the cheesy jingle and get to episode, I don’t know what it was. Okay, I’ve said this before, if you look at any business, any organization, there’s three core people. The first one is the person at the top who is the entrepreneur. The cool thing about the entrepreneur is the entrepreneur is the person who makes the most amount of money. They’re the head and they get the most amount of money. The problem with the entrepreneur is they also have the most risk, so they’re most likely to lose everything. I’ve lost everything multiple times because I’m the guy risking everything. But the nice thing is entrepreneurs that write their own paychecks, there’s no ceilings. So they can make as much as they want. They can make a million, ten million, a hundred million, they can do whatever they want because there’s no ceiling. So that’s the first personality type. The second personality type over here is what we call the technicians. The technicians are the people who actually do the work. And what’s funny, if you look at this, people who go to college are the technicians. What do they do, they look down on entrepreneurs, they look down on sales people. “Oh you’re in sales. What are you a doctor?” For crying out loud in the night. But they look down on people like us. Because “I’m a doctor. I went to 45 years of school.” What’s interesting, there’s technicians in all sorts of different spots right. I actually feel bad, I shouldn’t say this out loud, but at the airport here I saw one of my friends who is an amazing doctor and him and his wife were leaving on a trip and we were talking and he said, “This is the first trip my wife and I have been on in 25 years, together by ourselves.” I’m like, “What?” and he’s like, ‘Well, we had medical school and then we had kids and then we had to pay off medical school and all these things. Now the kids are gone and now we finally have a chance to leave.” I was like, wow. Our whole lives we’ve heard that medical school, becoming a doctor is the…..anyway that’s a rant for another day. But I was like, there’s technicians. And what’s interesting about technicians, they don’t have any risk. So there’s no risk whatsoever, but they do have, there’s a price ceiling on every single person that’s a technician, right. And depending on what job you have your price ceiling is different. So doctors, the price ceiling is, I have no idea what doctor’s make, $500 grand a year is like the price ceiling, that’s amazing but they can’t go above that. And different tasks, different roles, different position all have different price ceilings. But there’s like, this role as a technician makes this much, and this one makes this much and you’re all kind of these things. I said the problem with you right now, you have these amazing skill sets, but you are stuck as a technician in a role where they’re capping you out, where the only thing you can make is $25k a year. Remember I asked you, “What have you been doing?” and you’re like, “Oh, I’ve been networking, I’ve been learning, I’ve been getting my skills up, getting amazing.” I’m like, “That’s amazing, you’re skills are awesome, but your ceiling is $25k a year. No matter how good you get you are stuck because you’re in a technician role right now.” I said, “you’ve got a couple of options. One is go become an entrepreneur, which is scary because you’ve got four kids at home and you don’t have money anyway.” I am so eternally grateful that when I started this game, my wife, first off, we didn’t have kids yet, my wife was working, we didn’t have any money but I didn’t have to have any money at that time, and I’m so grateful I was able to sometimes, I was able to risk things that nowadays is hard. For you to come jump out on your own initially and just be like, “Boom, I’m an entrepreneur and I’m selling this stuff.” That’s scary right, because you’ve got all this risk. So I was like, that’s the thing, but it’s going to be really, really hard. I said, “there’s good news, there’s one more spot in this ecosystem. And the cool thing about that spot it’s that it’s just like the entrepreneur, there’s no ceiling, now the third spot over here is what we call the rainmakers. The rainmakers are the people who come into a business and they know how to make it rain. This is the people who know how to bring people into a company. Leads, they bring leads in. They know all this traffic stuff they’re talking about. These are the people who know how to sell to leads and actually get money out of peoples wallets and put it into the hands of the entrepreneurs. These people right here, the rainmakers don’t  have ceilings. In fact, companies who give the rainmaker the ceiling are the stupidest people in the world, because the rainmaker will hit the ceiling and then they’ll stop. If you’re smart and you have a company, and you have rainmakers, people driving traffic, people doing sales, if you have a ceiling they will hit and they will stop. If you get rid of the ceiling and then all the sudden they have as much as they want, they have less risk than the entrepreneur, but they have the ability to make unlimited amount of money. I said, “Your skill set over here as a technician is worth 25k a year, but if you take your skill set and shift it over here and say, “I come into a company and I’m a rainmaker. I create videos, I create stories, they’ll sell more products, more things.” Suddenly you’re not worth 25,000, now you’re worth $100,000, you’re worth $500,000. You’re worth whatever you’re able to do, because there’s no ceiling anymore. And that was the point of the podcast. I got done sending it, then I sent it to him and I sent it to my brother to edit it. And I have no idea what you thought about it at that point, because we didn’t talk for a while after that. But I’m curious where you went from there. Nick: So the first thing, you know, being told I was really only worth $25,000 in the eyes of the people who were hiring me, that was a punch in the gut. That sucked to hear. Thanks man. It was just like, I literally was working 12, 14, 16 hour days, lifting heavy stuff, I did a lot with lighting and camera work, not necessarily the story writing stuff, but you know, for him to put it so perfectly, that I was a technician. I thought going in, when I failed as an advisor and I started my own company, or started doing videos for people, and being so scared to charge somebody $250 for a video, being like, “they’re going to say no.” That kind of thing, and now I wouldn’t blink my eyes for that. But you know, it’s one of those things for him to tell it to me that way, just straight forward being like, “You are, you’re learning great skills and you’re meeting amazing people.” I worked with Oscar winners and Emmy winners and stuff in the movies and shows that I worked on, but again, I was only worth that much, they had a finite amount of money, and I was a small part of it, so I got a small piece. So listening to all of that, and then hearing the entrepreneur, the risk and stuff. I’m really tall, I’m 6’9” if you didn’t know. I’m a sink or swim guy, but because I’m tall I can reach the bottom of the pool a lot easier. When I jumped in, we had lost, as a financial advisor we had lost our home and we lost all these things. So I was like, I have nothing left to lose. Worst case scenario, and I had never heard that mindset before. We were renting a basement from a family members, our cars were paid off. Worst case scenario is we stayed there and get food stamps and that kind of thing. There was nowhere to go but up from there. So for me, I was just so excited. I’m like, I want to be a rainmaker, I want to be an entrepreneur, but I didn’t know where to find the people that I could do that for. So I was in this thing where I was still getting lots of calls to work as a technician, but I didn’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t want to put myself, my body, my family through me being gone and then when I’m home I’m just a bump on a log because I’m so wiped out, all that kind of stuff. So that was my biggest first thing, the action point for me. I started thinking, okay how do I transition out of this? How do I get myself out and start meeting the right people, the right kinds of clients who do have budgets and things like that, and how do I make it rain for them. That’s when I made that shift from working as a technician. I told myself I’m not going to do it anymore. The last time I technically worked as a technician was about 9 months ago. It was for a friend. So I made that shift and it was just amazing. Like Russell was talking about earlier, when you start to track it or when it’s part of your mindset, things start to show up and happen. You meet the right people and stuff. So those things just started, just by listening to that one hour long thing, I started changing and then the black box I got, Expert Secrets and Dotcom Secrets and started going through that as well. And it was just like, you see in the Funnel Hacker TV, that moment where the guy goes, “RAAAAA” that’s what happened with me. It was like a whole new world, Aladdin was singing. He was Aladdin and I was Jasmine, with a beard. Russell: I can show you the world. Nick: Exactly. But that’s what really, literally happened with me. Russell: That’s cool. Alright this is like summertime, he’s going through this process now, figuring things, changing things, shifting things, he’s changing his mindset. We go through the summer, we go through Christmas and then last year’s Funnel Hacking Live, were we in February or March last year? March, and so before Funnel Hacking Live we kind of just touched base every once in a while, seeing how things are going. He’s like, “Things are going good. I’m figuring things out.”  And then Funnel Hacking Live was coming, and I remember because we’re sitting there, and I think he messaged me or something, “Funnel Hacking looks awesome I wish I could make it.” I was like, “Why don’t you come?” And you’re like, “I just can’t make it yet.” I was like, “How about this man, I guarantee you if you show up it’ll change your life forever. I’m not going to pay for your flights or your hotel, but if you can figure out how to get there, I’ll give you a free ticket.” And that’s I said, “if you can come let Melanie know, and that’s it.” And I didn’t really know much, because you guys know in the middle of Funnel Hacking Live my life is chaos trying to figure out and how to juggle and all that stuff. So the next thing I know at Funnel Hacking Live, we’re sitting there and during the session I’m looking out and I see Nick standing there in the audience. And I was like, ‘I have no idea how he got there, but he’s there. Freaking good for him.” And I have no idea, how did you get there? That wasn’t probably an easy process for you was it? Nick: No. Credit cards. It was one of those things, I looked at flights. As soon as we had that conversation, it was funny because I was, I can’t remember what was going on, but it was a day or two before I responded back to his invitation. And I was like, I’d be stupid to say no. I have no idea how I’m going to get there. I think I even said, “I’ll hitch hike if I have to, to get there.” Can you imagine this giant sasquatch on route 66 trying to get to Florida. But I told my wife about it, and this is where Russell might have this in common. My wife is incredible and super supportive and she let me go. And we didn’t have the money in the bank so I said, “I’m going to put this on the credit card, and as soon as I get back I’m going to go to work and I’ll pay it off. I’ll get a couple clients and it will be fine.” So I booked the hotel, luckily I was able to get somebody who wasn’t able to go at the last minute and I got their hotel room, and I got the lfight and I came in and I was in the tornado warnings, like circling the airport for 5 hours, like the rest of you were. So I got there and I just remember I was just so excited. Walking in the room the very first day, the doors open and you all know what it’s like. I don’t have to relive this story. I remember I walked in and the hair on my arms, it was just like {whistling}. It was incredible, just the energy and the feeling. And I was like, t his is so cool. And then the very first speech, I was like that was worth every penny to get here. If I left right now it would have all been worth it. And you all know because you’re sitting here, you’ve felt that too. So that was my, getting there was like, “Honey, I know we don’t have the money, we have space on the credit card, and when I get home I swear I will work hard and it will be okay.” And she’s like, “Okay, go.” So I did. Russell: So now I want to talk about, not day one, or day two, but on day three at Funnel Hacking Live. How many of you guys remember what happened on day three? Russell sneak attacked all you guys. I was like, if I start going “Secret one, Secret two, Secret three” you guys will be like, “Here it is.” Sitting back. I was like, how do I do the Perfect webinar without people knowing it’s the perfect webinar? And I’m figuring this whole thing out, trying to figure that out. And we built a nice presentation, create an amazing offer for this program you guys are all in. And as you know, all you guys got excited and ran to the back to sign up and now you’re here. But you told me this personally, I hope you’re willing to share. But I thought it was amazing because you didn’t sign up that night. And I would love to hear what happened from then to the next day, and kind of go through that process. Nick: So this is my first Clickfunnels, I was all new to this whole thing. I was so excited when the 12 month millionaire presentation came up and I was like, “This is awesome.” Then I see it in the stack and I’m like, “I’m seeing the wizard,  I can see the wizard doing his thing.” And I was just so excited, and then the price. And it was a punch in a gut to me, because I was so, listening to it I was like, ‘This is what I need. This is what I want, this is what I need. It’s going to be amazing.” And then the price came and seriously, the rest of the night I was just like…. The rest of the presentation and everything after that I was just kind of zoned out. I just didn’t know what to do. Because I knew I needed it so badly and I’m like, that’s almost twice what we’re paying in rent right now. You know, it was just like, how am I going to justify this when I’m on food stamps and Medicaid and all this kind of stuff. You know, “yes, I’m on that but I dropped this money on a coaching program.” Russell: “From this internet coach.” Nick: Right. And so I’m having this mental battle and get back home to my room that night and I didn’t go hang out with people. I just was not feeling it. And I remember texting my wife on the walk back to the room. And I took the long way around the pond, just slowly depressedly meandering back to my room. And I’m texting her and I’m telling her how amazing it was and what the program would do and all that kind of stuff, and she’s like, “That sounds great.” And I’m purposely not saying how much it’s going to cost, just to get her excited about it, so I can maybe do a stack with her right. “For this and this….” See if I could try it. I didn’t, I failed when it came to doing that. I told her the price and she’s like, “That’s a lot of money. How are you going to pay for it.” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” And I’m like, “The only thing I can do, because I have to sign up while I’m here, and pay for it while I’m here. I can put it on the credit card and then we will figure it out.” So we talked a lot and I talked to my dad and it was the same thing. He was like, “Man, that’s a lot.” Just the scarcity mindset that a lot of us have with our family members and support system who aren’t, don’t think, who aren’t the crazy ones. So I went to bed and I got emotional, and I slept so so bad. Just didn’t sleep well that whole night. And again, I talked to my wife again the next morning, and I just, we just said, “It would be awesome. But I can’t do it, so I’m just going to work hard and figure something out and then if it ever opens up again, then I’ll be in a position to do it.” So I left my room that morning with that in my mind. I made the mistake of keeping my wallet in my pocket though, because I’m here. I again made the long walk back and kind of gave myself a pep talk like, “Don’t worry about that kind of stuff. Just more value out of it, meet more people.” So that’s when I left my room that morning, that’s where my mind was. Russell: What happened next? Nick: I walked into the room and Kevin Hansen, who I had, it’s funny, he does a lot of editing for Clickfunnels, and he and I had actually met independent of Clickfunnels before. It was one of those things like, “Oh you do, oh my gosh.” and it was like 2 months after we’d met. So I was talking to him, just chitchatting, and I just had right then in my mind, it was like, “Walk over to the table and sign up. If you don’t do it now, you’re never going to do it.” And it was just one of those things, because I’d given myself that speech, that whole five minute walk across the property. So I finished up talking with him and I just said, “I’ll be right back.” And I walked straight over to the table, got out the credit card, wrote it all down, and I’m like, I don’t even know what my limit is, so I hope whenever they run this that it goes through. I don’t know what’s going to happen. So I did and I got that little silver ribbon that we all got. And again, {whistling} chills. Like I was like, holy crap, this is amazing. I put it on my little lanyard thing and I was just like, I couldn’t believe it. The adrenaline and all that stuff of, “I’m doing it. And my wife is going to kill me when I get back home.” So that’s, then I went and got my seat and I was just floating, you know. I was so amped, I could have “Steven Larsened” it and screamed over the noise of everybody else and it would have been very, you would have heard it. So that’s what I did that morning. I was like, ‘Not going to do it, not going to do it, not going to do it.” I walked in, 60 seconds done. You have my money. Russell: So I’m curious, when did you tell your wife? This is like a marriage counseling session, huh? Nick: yeah, do you have a couch I can lay down on? Russell: A big couch. Nick: yeah, really. So I got home and I didn’t tell her, at all. I didn’t. I said, the clock is ticking. I have 30 days until that hits, or 20 days until the credit card statement comes and she’s like, “Wait, why is there an extra $2000 bucks on here?” So I just, I said, I’ve got some time because my wife, she’s 5’3”, she’s dainty, little petite lady, but she’s not scary I guess. But this is the first time I was really scared to tell her something in our marriage. So I just said, I’m just going to hit the road hard and see what I can come up with to cover at least the $1800 and the hotel, for what I racked up at Funnel Hacking Live, and then that will get me another 30 days to figure something out. So I went and I never told her until the credit card statement came and she saw it. She’s like, “What’s this?” But what happened before that, I don’t know, do you have something after that or do you want me to go to the next part? Okay, so me going to work and being like, “I gotta find it.” and it’s funny that night at Funnel Hacking Live, I went on Facebook and I created some half thought through offer where it was like, “Hey if I can get like 5 people locally where I’m at to do a monthly low number where I create a couple of videos for a monthly retainer, that will cover it and I can figure it. But nobody nibbled on it. So I got home and I started just trying to figure stuff out. And I had met another lady who had a company and she uses Clickfunnels for her course. And it was funny, I talked to her before I went to Funnel Hacking Live, and we were talking and she was like, “Do you know Clickfunnels?” And I was like, “That’s so crazy. I do.” Because I’d never met anybody else that had. So I got home and I shot a little video with her, it was a test to do some modules for her course and she loved it and it was great. So we were talking about, she had like 20 videos she wanted to do and we were talking about budget, and I just said, “you know what, for that much, for that many videos and all this kind of stuff, it’s going to be $25,000.” And she didn’t even blink. She’s like, “Perfect, that’s great.” Thank you, you guys. You’re going to make me cry. Thank you.  And that was like maybe two weeks after I got home that that happened. And I left her house and I tried my hardest not to do a jump heel click going down her driveway, out to my car, and I got around the corner and I messaged Russell like, “dude, you’ll never guess. I just closed my first 5 figure deal and this is what it was…” and he was like, “That’s so cool.” You know. But it was the whole plata o plomo thing, I would never have the guts to ask for something like that, I know that I should and that my skills and what I can do are worth that and more, and it’s been proven to me again and again since then, but to ask the first time, that first time you have a big ask and you’re just throwing yourself out there, and if she would have said no…Now what am I going to do? Because I had actually done another pitch where I did like a webinar pitch where I  had a stack and slides and stuff because it was for a Chamber of Commerce, and I wanted to charge them 2500 a month to do like 4 videos a year. And I did the whole thing like, “If you do it, it’s $2500 a month, or if you do it all right now it’s this…” that whole you know, and they passed on it. I was like, ugh. So it was just one of those things where being around y’all, that was my first experience being around entrepreneurs, really. I have friends who have had businesses, but I felt weird for wanting to create my own thing or being selfish because I have four kids. Like why don’t you go get a real job? All those conversations that you hear and have with yourself, especially when things aren’t going great. But it was like okay, I have to get it done or I have to drop out. And I just, even in that short amount of time I received so much value from the people I was beginning to meet, and then as the content started coming out I was like, “There’s no way I could live without this after having a taste of it.” So that was my, I had to get it done and it worked out. Russell: Amazing, I love that story. So coo. Alright, so since then, how many of you guys have watched his….are you daily or almost daily Facebook Lives? Nick: Pretty much, almost daily. I’ll miss some… Russell: How many of you guys have watched his daily Facebook lives, he’s doing what we’re saying right. He’s doing it. He’s doing it. I see it, I see it coming in my feed. It pops in my feed over and over. He’s doing what we’re talking about. He’s attracting people, he’s telling stories. All the stuff we’re talking about, he’s been doing it. But part of it, he had to have that emotion, that plata o plomo moment and then he hit it and it’s just like, he’s been running and running and running and running. And it’s been so insanely fun to watch the progress and the growth. Some of you guys know he put out an event that’s coming up this weekend and sold out in 5 seconds. He’s like, “I sold out, should I make it bigger?” and I’m like, “No people should have responded to you faster, it’s their fault. Sell it out because next time it will be easier to sell it out again and easier to sell out again.” But he did it by giving tons of value. Telling stories, telling stories, telling stories, providing more value to you guys, to other entrepreneurs, other people in the community and people are noticing. All the stuff we talked about today, he’s doing it. Consistently, consistently, consistently doing it. That was so cool. I don’t even know where to go from here. Alright I know where to go from here. Before I move into this, was it scary? Nick: All of it scary? Well, this is what, back to my competitive days, I don’t care who, I’d played against the best players in the country at high levels. And I didn’t care if you were going to the NBA, being recruited by Duke, once we got into the lines I didn’t care who you were, I was going to make you look silly. I would hold, you wouldn’t score a point on me, or I would just like out work you and if you wanted to get anywhere I was in your face the whole time. And so this was a whole different game for me. I remember Myron talking about in his speech at Funnel Hacking Live, you have to stay in the game long enough to learn the game, and I was new to this game. Like brand new, less than 12 months when I went to Funnel Hacking Live. And it was terrifying because, not necessarily because I didn’t think I could do it, I was just worried when, how long it would take. Like am I going to go and just spin my wheels and it’s going to be 15 years, 2099 and I’m wheeling up across to get my reward from him in his wheelchair, just like, “Hey buddy.” You know, that kind of thing. I just didn’t know how to make it happen quick. That kind of stuff. So I was definitely scared, not necessarily of failing, because I had failed before, I was just scared how long it was going to take. Russell: one of the best moments for me was this summer, him and his family were driving home from, I can’t remember where, they were driving through Boise, and he’s like, “Can we swing by and say hi? My kids want to meet you, my wife wants to meet you.” That’s always scary when you haven’t met someone’s wife or kids and you’re like, what if they hate me. And I remember I started thinking, oh my gosh. He spent all his money coming out here, and then he bought the thing, she might legitimately want to kill me. I have no idea. I was a little bit nervous. And I came and met them and the kids, it was super cool. I remember the coolest thing, your wife just looked at me and she said, “Thank you.” And I was like, how cool is that? Just the coolest thing. Thank you for convincing, persuading, whatever the things are to do this thing. I think sometimes as entrepreneurs we feel the guilt or the nervousness of, “Should I sell somebody something? Is it right, is it wrong?” You have to understand when you’re doing it, it’s not a selfish thing for you. It’s like, how do I get this person to take the action they need to do. Because most people won’t do it until they make an investment. It’s just human nature. They’ll keep dinking around and dinking around, whatever it is until they have a commitment, until they make that covenant, like Myron talked about earlier, people don’t change. So in any aspect of life, you want someone to make a change, there’s got to be something that causes enough pain to cause the change, which is why we have the program. We could have priced the program really, really cheap but I was like, “No we won’t.” We legitimately wanted to make a plata o plomo moment for everybody. You’ll notice, when the program signup, not everybody who signed up is here today. Some people fell away, some of them left, things happen and I totally understand, but I wanted to make it painful enough that we get people to move. And there are people in this room, I’ve joked about, Nick probably shouldn’t have bought that. If he would have asked I would’ve been like, “No dude, don’t. What are you thinking? Why would you do that?” as a friend this is weird, but I’m so grateful. Are you grateful you did? Nick: Absolutely. Russell: Where’s Marie Larsen, is she still in here? I talked about this in the podcast. She was in the same situation, she should not have signed up for it, it’s insane. I saw this text she sent Steven, she’s like, how much did you have in your bank account when you signed up for it? $70 in the bank account, $1800 a month bill she signed up for. And then it started happening and she was freaking out how it’s going, if you guys haven’t listened to the podcast, Lean In, yet I told the whole story. But it got nervous month one, then month two happened and she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I need to leave. I can’t afford this.” And she’s talking with Steven and Steven’s like, “Well, you could leave and walk away, or you could lean in.” so she decided, “Okay, I’m going to lean in.” So she leaned in, and I’ve watched as her business over the last 3, 4, 5, 6 months is growing and it’s growing and it’s growing because she leaned in. Tough times will come, every single time it comes, but those who lean in are the ones who make it through that, and who grow and who build huge businesses.

The secret trick I use to help my kids handle an entire day at school. On today’s episode Russell talks about listening to music on the way to school to get his kids excited about the day. Here are some of the amazing things in this episode: Find out why listening to music on the way to school helps get Russell’s kids excited about school, so they won’t be miserable like he was when he was a kid. And why listening to a specific kind of music is the best and fastest way to get into the state you need to be in. So listen here to find out what music Russell listens to with his kids to get their energy levels high enough to make it through an entire school day. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Right now I’m driving in the car with…. Norah: Me. Russell: What’s your name? Norah: Norah. Russell: And we’re going to tell you guys something really, really cool. Alright, so me and Norah just took the kids to school and dropped them off and it’s really fun. So Norah drives with us most mornings and we take the kids to the junior high. And I don’t know about you but school wasn’t my favorite thing. It was really hard and I didn’t enjoy it very much. So I’ve got this really special 5 minute drive everyday to take my kids to school, and during the 5 minute drive, I realize they are about to enter to probably the most miserable, depressing place on earth. I shouldn’t say that out loud, but come on now, those of you guys who have been through school (which is all of us) it’s not like Disneyland, it’s not like a Funnel Hacking Live event. It’s not like something exciting where you’re motivated and inspired and ready to change the world. You go and you’re like waiting for the bell to ring so you can see your friends for two minutes before you go back into class again. So I figure I’ve got to give my kids the best chance to enter into school every single day in the most peak state possible. So what we do, in case anyone who drives down this road with me is wondering, in fact I had a friend the other day, she said, “Sometimes I pass you guys when you’re driving to school and it looks like you guys are having a disco party.” Which makes me want to get a disco ball in the Jeep. But basically we crank up the music, so today we’re listening to Bohemian Rhapsody and we start head banging, huh Norah. And Norah is the cutest little head banger. When it gets to the awesome part, she starts head banging and kicking her feet and we’re all going crazy and we’re laughing and we’re singing, and we’re trying to….my goal is to get them in the best state possible so when they step out of the jeep and go into the school they are starting at the peak excitement for the day.  And hopefully that will last all the way to wrestling practice at 3:30. Anyway, the reason I wanted to share that with you guys is because music is powerful. I’m not a big fan of listening to music all the time, I think a lot of people waste their lives just listening to music, when they could be listening to podcasts and learning, and all sorts of stuff. In fact, I read somewhere, I’m going to misquote the facts, but it was like, “the average person who listens to music all day make $50,000, and the average person who listens to podcasts all day is like $150,000 a year.” So you’ll 3x your income just by listening to podcasts as opposed to music. But there is a time and a place for music, and I think that the best time and place for music, and I feel bad I shouldn’t say that because I do love music and I listen to it a lot, but the time it’s most efficient is before you are about to do something. Music has this magical, powerful effect to change your state. If you listen to a sad song, you can be sad instantly. You listen to a happy song, you can be happy instantly. A pump up song, whatever it is, music has the ability to change your state and shift your state faster than I think, anything else out there. Outside of maybe hardcore drugs, I don’t know. I’ve never done that, so I’m not sure but other than that music is like number two for dramatically shifting your state. Norah: Daddy? Russell: Yeah Norah? Norah: Why did they turn off the waterfall? Russell: I don’t know. Norah’s wonder why they turned off, there’s a waterfall when you go into our neighborhood and it’s turned off. It’s because it’s too cold now Norah. Anyway, so with my kids when I’m trying to get them to peak state of excitement and energy and everything before they step through the doors of school, we use music and we use fun, exciting, high energy music. So we find our favorite thing, in fact, whoever is driving in the jeep and they sit in the front seat, gets to be the dj for the day, and they each get to pick the song they want. And typically, it’s usually like a Greatest Showman’s song, the Other Side is one of their favorites, or it’s Bohemian Rhapsody, or it’s Black Eyed Peas, something that gets them into high state, high excitement, high energy.  And then we head bang and we sing, and we have so much fun, so the second they get out their energy level is super high. Norah: Daddy…. Russell: Say hi guys. Want to say hi to everybody? Norah: I like puppet shows. Russell: Norah likes watching puppet shows. Her favorite thing to do is to go to YouTube and watch puppet shows, huh? Anyway, I use it at the same time, when I’m driving to the office. Norah: and I sleep in mommy’s bed. Russell: and she sleeps in mommy’s bed. You should sleep in Norah’s bed. No? Anyway, I use music also when I know I’m tired or like worn out. I don’t want to do this thing, like lifting weights this morning. I didn’t want to do it, so I come in and turn on the right music to get you in the right state to be able to handle it. Days I’m going to the office and I’m like, “I don’t want to be here, I’m tired.” I use music to shift my state. Days when I know I need an extra boost of energy or excitement or motivation or whatever, I use music to shift my state and get me into that thing, so I can get out of myself what I need. So that’s how you use music strategically. So for you guys, I just want you thinking about that, when you’re about to enter something……oh can you hear Norah singing? Norah: (singing in background) Russell: Oh, that makes me happy. You think about it in church, a lot of times too. The same thing, you use music to shift you into state, to be able to feel the spirit. You shift music to be able to dominate the day. Anyway, so my message for you guys today is make different music tracks. I use Spotify, because it’s the easiest. I make Spotify tracks and they get me into the different states I need. If I want to be in a romantic state, I’ve got a Spotify track. If I want to be in a high energy state, I’ve got a track. If I want to be in a thoughtful state, a motivation, a meditative state, we use music to get ourselves in state quickly. So use music to shift your state to be able to accomplish what you guys need to do. So there you go. That’s it, I’m almost home. Norah’s singing, I’m going to go sing the rest of the song with her. I appreciate you guys and we’ll talk to you all soon.

Barry Auchettl (ock-er-tell) is a world leader in communications from the Gold Coast, Australia. Barry is the creator of Conversations: an inspirational game, which transforms ordinary talk into meaningful connections. Having a Masters of Education, he is also trained facilitator of The Virtues Project and The Blue Wren project for the prevention of domestic violence.  He is currently working towards being a Non-Violent Communication facilitator. Barry is an author, international keynote speaker and runs a six month Life Vision Mentoring program, that specializes in clearing sabotages and creating authentic communication. He is also the founder of Eye Power vision improvement services. Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Greetings, it's Hugh Ballou and Russell Dennis again for The Nonprofit Exchange. As usual, we have a very intriguing guest on this episode. Barry Auchettl from just south of Brisbane, Australia. It's called the Gold Coast, Barry. Barry Auchettl: It's called the Gold Coast here. Hugh: Oh yeah. Russell is in Denver, and we are having a good time. We are having to accommodate the time because our normal time for Barry would be in the middle of the night. He likes us, but he doesn't like us that well. We are accommodating. Barry, I put a little dangler out there about Barry Auchettl. We are talking about Conversations today. We will leave that hanging for a minute. Tell people who Barry is. Barry: Hi, Hugh. Hi, Russell. Great to meet you guys again. My background is quite varied. I have a varied background. I started off as an accountant for Pricewaterhouse. I worked through the lines of there for a few years and recognized that accounting really wasn't my thing. It gave me a great background into business and how businesses work. I decided then I was going to go teaching. I had a calling to teach. Ended up teaching for about 15 years. My areas of expertise were accounting, computers, and religious education, of all things. I have a theology degree as well. I have a business degree, a theology degree, and a Masters in Education. It keeps me busy. About 1997, it actually happened, I left teaching in '97 to start up my own business called Eye Power, which has now been operating for 21 years. Eye Power is about improving people's physical eyesight, but it also looks at people's vision of life and how the two are connected. That's really what I have been working with in a whole variety of fashions since '97. Hugh: Now Conversations is the topic of this interview. Conversations is technically a game, but it's a game with a purpose. What was the inspiration for developing it? It's pretty intricate and complex. It's easy to play, but you can tell there is a lot of psychology, philosophy, thought underneath the principles here. What was your inspiration for creating this tool? Barry: It's really a communication tool for connecting people. That's what it is, and transforming relationships. The origin of this game is fascinating. As much as I have a teaching background and I was helping groups, by that stage, I was helping and supporting adults. I was recognizing that people weren't communicating properly. But I had no intention. This was way back in 2001. All I did was I went to bed one night really frustrated because my work wasn't taking off like I wanted it to. When you are a start-up business sand things are really slow, I was frustrated one night. I went, “What is going on here?” I went to sleep that night, and I literally had a dream about the Conversations game that night. I had all these things I had to get done. In the next three days, I put together the Conversations game. I don't know how, but all the other things got done as well. I don't remember doing anything else. I just remember working on doing the very basics of the Conversations game. Within two weeks, Neale Donald Walsch, whose Conversations with Godand founders of Humanity's Team, a nonprofit organization, played the game and really endorsed it. He said this is fantastic. You have to get this out there. Hugh: You need to bring it to America. We're not talking to each other. Barry: Look, I have been really lucky. I have had the fortune of going around the world. By and large, people are the same. One thing I have found around the world is when we take out our politics and religions, underneath all of that, we are wanting to connect to each other and be kind and look after our families and have a good life. It's almost a basic process. What I found that the game does, and I have played it with people, I have had ten countries play at once on Zoom, it was a fascinating experience to see that we are all- This experience we are all one. We are all having the same issues, concepts, desires, wishes. Hugh: It's fascinating, isn't it. Give us a couple of examples of here is what was going on, people were not connecting. They did the game. On the other end, what happened? Barry: One of the very early ones that came to mind is the first birthday of Conversations, and I decided to have an open house and invite people around. I had one person walk in. She was from a fundamental, strict religious background. She was making sure that there was nothing spooky going on because it would affect her religious beliefs. I said have a seat, have a cuppa, you'll be all right. I eased her into it. The next person who walked in, I said, “Welcome to the game. Would you like a cup of tea before we start?” She literally looked up to the sky and said, “Yes, my angels told me I could have a cup of tea.” Hugh: Oh wow. Barry: Wow, this is going to be an interesting game. It was almost two extremes in terms of beliefs that you could get, you know. This is way back. This was back in the mid-2000s, the one-year release when I printed the game in 2005, so it was 2006. I was thinking, Oh my goodness, what is going to happen here? How are these people going to get on? What happened is a miracle, I believe is a miracle. I have played this game around a thousand times. The miracle was not only did they have an argument, because I could see their different viewpoints, but somehow the game drew out of them what was similar, so much so that not only did they not have an argument, but they also exchanged phone numbers and became friends. That showed to me the potential then of what could happen with the game. Hugh: Oh my word. I guess people need to come to the game with an open mind and a willingness to talk. Barry: That's right, and just be open. The game is designed in a way that people talk as deep as they are comfortable with. The idea is slightly bend people's comfort zones, not push them out of their comfort zone. Let's extend ourselves and see how it goes. A good example is I received two emails once. One was from a grandfather, and one was from his granddaughter. They both sent me a letter to thank me because they had their first ever real conversation with each other. They talked to each other with their family, and the traditional roles, especially as a grandparent, and I guess they talked to each other as two human beings having a conversation. Hugh: Barry, that's the big gap in all of our systems. We are talking to leaders that are running religious institutions, membership organizations, cause-based charities, community foundations. We are talking to people who have a very tight network of people gathered around a particular philosophy. That doesn't mean they talk to each other. The church in America, the mainline denominations, there is a little bit of revitalization energy going on, but we have lost a lot of members. Part of it is this whole thing is we come and we sit, we don't interact, and we go home. We don't talk to each other in meaningful ways. Can we play a little bit of this game with you and Russell? Barry: The game normally goes between one and two hours, but we can do a ten-minute demo, which will give you guys and everyone listening a feel of what this is about. Russell hasn't played it, and I can see he is intrigued already, aren't you, Russell? Hugh: He is intrigued. Russ, you're ready? You wanting to do this? Russell Dennis: I'm ready to rock and roll. Barry: Okay. The game itself as an outline, the game itself has three cycles. It has an Aspect cycle, which is an aspect of life. That might be career or health or something like that. Then we look at a Life cycle, which they call the Drama card. That was the easy part for me to do. Then we have the Inspiration cycle, which is to step out of that. That's really what the game is all about: that whole inspiration of how to move forward. The purpose of the game- Just before we play here, I want to take up your point about communication. I believe real authentic communication is a two-way process. One is we need to be able to speak and feel safe speaking. Authentically speak, and know that we won't be criticized. Part of this game is when someone speaks, no one comments on them. They get to speak without anyone saying that was a good answer or a bad answer or “Why don't you do this?” or try to fix someone. There is no fixing allowed in this game. In actual fact, we only use “I” statements. That's part of the game. We only use “I” statements. There is no “You need to do this.” It's for me, I might choose to meditate more, or something. That's the first part. The second part of the game, and it's really important, and I used to call it active listening, about really listening to each other. I have shifted that in the last six months because I have done some work with nonviolent communication and empathic communication. I really believe now it's about empathic listening. It's not just listening to the words; it's listening to what is behind the words. When we can really do that and tune in and get a feel for what the person is about and have some empathy for the person and have some empathy for yourself, you can then relate what is being said to yourself. That part, the game creates that. The final part that I can't create but the game somehow magically does is to create an openness and a connection with all those who play. Because somehow by having people have a physical card in their game gives them position to open up. It just seems to do that. When we do that, we recognize we are similar. That is a real introduction. I am going to start the game with us. Hugh: Drumroll please. Barry: Okay. So we are going to get through each cycle and keep it really short. Our answers are down to a minute to allow a ten-minute idea we suggested. The first part of the cycle is we choose an aspect. Hugh, because you have played before, I am going to choose an aspect for you. These are so-called random. I don't believe in random. The aspect I have for you is “Fame and Glory.” Hugh: Fame and glory. Barry: I will give you one of the doc points. And the doc point here is “See yourself as equal to others.” Hugh: Okay. Barry: I want you to comment on what fame and glory means for you, in context of nonprofit organizations. Hugh: In seeing myself as equal to others. Was that the other part? Barry: Yes. That was the point that came up for you, yes. Hugh: Part of how I perceive that is that I like the statement “Nobody is perfect, but parts of me are excellent.” There is parts of me that are really good. I focus on those. I just take it in stride. Other people value it and say, “Ooh, that's really good.” It's part of who I am. It's my way of giving to other people. Fame and glory for me is just focusing on what I do really well and maximizing that gift, that space that I give to others. Barry: Okay, thank you. Everyone playing can relate to that. I am nodding, and I can see Russell nodding as well. I'm sure this will also relate to all the people listening. It's interesting how this game, it's for one person but can expand to everyone. That's the amazing part. Russell, I have a card for you. Your card is “Rest and Relaxation.” And the doc point, there are four doc points with each of these cards to help people with their answer. I am going to give you one of them. The one I want you to comment on is “Allow the soul time to recuperate.” Russell: Rest and relaxation. I am a firm believer that for me, it's important to raise my level of consciousness, whatever I am facing. That is what fuels me and gives me energy to go out and try to make a difference in the world. In order to give, I believe we live in a reciprocal universe. I have to recharge my batteries from time to time so that I am able to serve at a high level and give to other people. For me, what's restful and relaxing is my meditation practice that I do daily. It's a chance for me to shut down, notice what's going on within me, and look at my day. Just not attach myself to anything, whether it's good or bad. But just to notice where I'm at. And harvest a supreme gratitude so that I can continue to serve and recharge. Part of that rest and relaxation is turning the squirrel cage off and sensing that connection to the universe. Barry: That's wonderful. Thanks, Russell. Thanks for coming out and sharing that with us. First game. You jumped into it. That's awesome. I am amazed at how close the answers can be as we get these. I am going to choose mine to round the first cycle off. The card I have is “Humor.” That's a good one here. I am going to read the very first point, “It's only a game.” I think it's a really good one for me. Sometimes I can take myself so seriously. Playing this Conversations game, it's a very serious game. We are going to go deep, and we better not smile because it's serious. I think it's really important for me always to remember to bring humor. When I educate people, when I do my training, I do a six-month mentoring training around the world, I have to use humor as part of that because otherwise I get bored. I think it's a great way. When people laugh, we learn. I have a big belief that we can go deep and laugh at the same time. It's not a choice. Really interesting three cards. We have “Fame and Glory, “ “Rest and Relaxation,” and “Humor” coming up for the three of us. Really interesting combinations. That's the first cycle. People go around. If we have time at the end, which we won't do today, we can look at where the connections are between each of those aspects. It's quite interesting in itself Hugh: How many people can do this at one time? Barry: The game has sixteen aspects. I normally run small groups between two and 32 people because 32, you pair people up and do things like that. I have actually played with 300 people at a conference, where they had me play with the entire audience. It is possible to play the game with large groups. You just do it differently. It's part of the facilitation process I've done with this, and with an educational background, I have been able to create a variety of ways of playing the game. It was used in a 300-seat auditorium in New Zealand, and that got me to be the entertainment at halftime to connect people. Hugh: Sweet. Barry: Let's continue. We will go into our Life cycle. We usually call this the Drama cycle. Each would get a turn by the way if it's a small group. If it's a large group, we obviously couldn't. We are going to choose one card as an example. Russell, you are choosing the card for us. All you need to do is I will read the card out, then you say what does it mean for you, and what does it mean in terms of your aspect? I will get you to invite only one of us to speak. One of the things you will learn in this game is you don't always have to speak about everything all the time. For some people, that's a good learning process. Oh, I don't have to say something. I will let you choose whether Hugh talks about fame and glory with this card or if I talk about humor from that viewpoint. But what I want you to do is say what this card means to you and what it means in terms of rest and relaxation. That's what you need to do at this point. You don't have to agree with the card; you can disagree. These aren't stone tablets; you can disagree with them. The card says, “I find it difficult to love myself.” Russell: What that means to me is that person doesn't really recognize how exceptional they are. Hugh, what does that card mean to you? Hugh: I don't have difficulty with that. My standards are pretty low. I accept myself. I criticize myself heavily, but judging my performance and loving myself, I have been able to think of in different ways. Part of fame and glory, and Barry, I get to conduct an orchestra this season, and that is very public, and in my community, that is part of fame and glory. I am up there, and when you are in front of everybody, they will judge you. I have gotten to a place where I do what I do, and celebrate it because I know somebody will like it. That means being comfortable in loving myself. It's a journey of saying, I am going to let go of the flaws and love myself just how I am. That is part of personal empowerment for me. Barry: Awesome, thank you. Russell, since it was your card, did you want to make any other comments before we move on? Russell: I think that's an interesting card. A lot of people may or may not choose to look at that. It's something that's important to look at as far as rules surrounding how we set living for ourselves. I love this. This is really deep. The way to solve things is to look within myself and start there. Barry: One thing we will do in a game is I would probably call you in a real game to say “I” statements than “we.” For me, this means… It's a key concept in this game to keep coming back to self. The rest of us go, “Oh yeah, I can relate to that as well.” My own personal journey, I am a little bit stubborn. When anyone tells me what to do, I tend to do the opposite. Russell:People don't want to be told what's wrong. Barry: Like we said, we all need to meditate. Oh yeah, sure. When you say, “I meditate every day,” I can relate to that, or maybe I need to do that, whatever it is. It gives people permission to come on board without the request or the demand to come on board. That's an important process. We are going to keep this fairly quick and move to the Inspiration cycle. Russell, I will start with you again. Inspiration is about maybe one sentence about this, let's keep this fairly short. This is moving it up toward a higher level. The Life card shows a drama aspect, and this takes us to another place. Your card says, “What would happen if everyone did this?” Russell: I believe that if everybody did this that there would be an increase in the level of collective consciousness for all the people who participate. Barry: Awesome, thank you. My card says, “Give to another whatever you choose to have for yourself.” It's really interesting because I have been doing a mentoring program. As I support other people in stepping up, and it is about raising their consciousness as well, I work in raising consciousness and frequency as I am helping them to raise their consciousness and frequency, mine increases as well. It comes back to me. I think that's a great card for me. Hugh, your card is, interesting one, “Affirmations work better when they are about something that is already true for you.” Hugh: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. At 72 years old, I'm finding that anything I do, there's still room for growth. Working on the skills I have my top skills makes them better. The ones that are down the ladder a little bit, I do not need to mess with those. I want to focus on affirming who I am and what I do. Focusing what I am makes it better, and that my top skills, it makes them continue to grow. Barry: Awesome, thank you. That is a quick version. That was about 15 minutes. We could have discussed that further with each other, particularly cycle two. That gives us a feel of what this is about. Before we continue the interview, I want to complete the game properly. Hugh, could you say what you personally got out of the game, in one sentence, for yourself? What did you find out about yourself from this game? Hugh: Absolutely. It made me think about myself in ways that I would not normally do. I felt a little vulnerable, but it felt safe. Barry: Great, thank you. Russell? Russell: I love this game. I think it's wonderful. The thing I notice is I happen to be very careful because of the circles I run around in. I run into a lot of like-minded people. My language in general is inclusive. But I have to be very careful to come from the place of talking from within my own experience so that I'm not putting anybody on the spot but being more inviting for them to relate in the way that is comfortable for them. Barry: Thank you. That's a wonderful insight. For me, I have played this game over a thousand times, and I don't get bored. I always learn something about myself. This is a workshop in a box. You get to play a workshop every time. The key for me is what was my inspiration card was, as a reminder that I am of service to others. That comes back to me. I am recognizing my life is amazing at the moment. I am probably the happiest I've ever been in my life, and I am serving people more than I ever have. The two are hand in hand, so that's pretty cool. That's the nutshell of the game. Congratulations, Russell, on completing your first demo. Hugh, you have played this a number of times now. Hugh: It's always different, Barry. It seems to always be different for me. You go to a museum, and you se a great work of art. It's different every time I look at it. There is more depth to it. Barry: It's true for me. I do get bored pretty easily in life. I have done a whole lot of different things. This is something I do not know a game that I play where I was bored because you always are learning. I can play a whole game and just listen to people talk. You go, Wow. It's fascinating to not to have to be the speaker and let people talk about what is happening and how it relates to me. I can relate to both of what you said, Hugh and Russell, in terms of my own life. Hugh: I'm sorry, Russ. Go ahead. Russell: The one aspect of this is it never gets old because every time you sit down with it, you're in a different place. I think the dynamics of solving very real human problems requires me, there I go again, lesson learned, to look at where I'm at and to constantly evaluate how I can do that and how I communicate with other people. It's all dynamic. Barry: Where I started with that was with my own family. That was the first place I played the game. It really connected my own family. I can remember my children were already teenagers at the time. The older boys were quite talented in all sorts of things, even as teenagers, they are setting up international businesses. That entrepreneurial skill. My daughter said, “How can I be like you guys?” or something like that. After the game, they turned to her and said how amazing they thought she was and the life she has ahead of her and her talents and gifts. It opened up on a heart base to each other. My daughter is now having an engagement party here in Australia next month, and my two boys are flying in from America and England just to be at her engagement party, just to support her. It's really connected them together for life. Hugh: What I have experienced that is different than normal interactions is that being a musician, I have worked on my listening ability my whole life. We need to be very intentional about listening. Your pivot from active listening to empathetic listening, I believe I heard the word, is there is a willingness to understand the intent behind this. It's a whole different paradigm. Where has that been very helpful in the games where people have been at odds? Where has that perspective been helpful? Barry: I think it's helpful when we recognize that we have different language. Sometimes we can get caught up on the words. I know for corporate in some organizations, one of the aspects is “unconditional love.” Sometimes I have a corporate edition, which calls it “unconditional acceptance.” I recognize that sometimes it's just our language that holds us back in the words that we use. If we can go behind the words and get a feeling for what is going on, we are not going to get caught in the language. When we use words, especially words that can have a charge, when we talk about love or God or universe or spirit, people have different ways of expressing that. Just allowing and accepting of that that ultimately we are referring to the same thing. The energy behind it is what's important. Hugh: Nonprofits and religious institutions attract people around a cause. We have passion to the cause. It doesn't mean that we know how to interact around how we work together. I think there is a big gap. We spend time texting, and we spend time on the cell phone, and emailing, and doing things on our computer, and posting on social media. We are not really having a conversation where we are listening and where we are using I statements. This takes us out of all those routines and has a face-to-face relationship. I see in nonprofits, there is a lot of important work for us to do. Government shouldn't be doing some of the stuff they are trying to do. Nonprofits can come in and have a neutral place and do some healing and some philanthropic work that we are cut out to do. That would necessitate us being, I call it a new architecture of engagement. How do we show up as this fine-tuned music ensemble? We are in there working together. There is a special place for nonprofits in this communication area. How do you see it playing there? Barry: Can I make a comment about that? I actually used to work for a project called Living for Harmony in Australia. It was about bringing all the different cultures together and recognizing how we can get on together than being separate. That was a project about bringing people from the straight tribes to politicians together and being open together and trying to be honest with each other. The game is part of that process of connecting people, of having a deeper conversation. It's been played in church groups, in nonprofit groups, in corporations, in schools, in universities. It's whenever we need to have a greater conversation, and I believe especially wen we are talking about nonprofits. A lot of people in nonprofits come in and volunteer their time because there is a higher purpose to why they are doing it. In return, sometimes, all they want to do is be heard. They want to have a voice and hear that what you're doing matters and is important to us. We're hearing you, we're listening to you, and you are important. Hugh: Russell, what are you thinking there? Russell: I think that is critical: being able to get support for the mission in nonprofits because you have so many different audiences that you are talking to. Some of them are internal. Your staff, your board, your volunteers/servant leaders, as we like to call them. There is the community you work in. The various people who support you, whether it's through corporate sponsorship or grant people or individual donors. It's important to talk to people in terms that are meaningful to them without losing who you are. Having the good conversation is critical to that. It's difficult to find that language where it works for everyone so that there is no misunderstanding. It's what it's all about. That's how you bring people into the fold, or the way that I feel you bring people into the fold is that you connect with them at a deep level so that you are working toward the same things. You have that deep understanding. And it's the ability to put what needs to be done ahead of my own individual goals for the greater good. It's important to have good conversations around how you do that. Barry: Definitely. Well spoken. Hugh: The whole shift in paradigm, Barry, it takes us out of feeling like we have to have the answer to something to the place where we are exploring what the answers could be. One of the religious writers I read is Richard Rohr. He is very eloquent in talking about non-dual thinking. We want it to be good or bad, left or right, up or down, debit or credit. There is a third way, a different way, multiple different ways. Instead of being dualistic, let's talk about the other options. Part of this, do you experience when people are playing the game, that there are times of silence, where there is some profound things going on without words? Barry: It's interesting because the realization. I will give you two examples of this. Part of the game, when we say don't interrupt people, is to allow people an opportunity to sit with the card they pull for a while. Sometimes it can have a profound effect. Part of the magic of the game is not only do they get a card, but in the game, we seem to get the exact cards that we need on the day. It seems to happen that way. We have had two cases. One case I remember, a guy got “Personal Growth and Spirituality.” It was a group of about 20 people. He threw the card on the ground and said, “I don't want to play.” It was really good because nobody in the group reacted. They just looked at me, like what are you going to do. I said, “It's your choice. We won't force you to do anything here. Do what you feel comfortable with.” But he said, “I want to stay.” I said, “All right.” I thought about it. It was a choice: What are you going to do? You can stay. It felt like he needed to stay. He stayed. We got about halfway through, and we had a break. We started playing the second half of the game, and I said, “Any questions?” He put his hand up and said, “Barry, can I play again?” And I said, “Sure. Your card is on the ground, exactly where you left it. You can go pick it up.” Spoken like a true teacher. He went and picked the card up, and I said, “Who wants to go next?” His hand went straight back up again, and he wanted to go next. He pulled a card, and what came up was that he had a rebirth in his spiritual life and walked away from it. This night was the time that he came back to it. He recognized that he couldn't run away from it anymore. It was an amazing process. It was in the silence of no one trying to fix him and allowing him to make that choice to return to the game, to return to his own spiritual life that created a change in him. That was quite remarkable. Since I did get humor, I had another one. A lady got “Food.” She almost walked out. She got food. “I shouldn't get food. I should have gotten personal growth and spirituality or unconditional love. I got food. I should have gotten something more important than that. I don't want to play.” I said, “Look, that's fine.” Why do people keep asking permission? She got up to leave. She got to the door. At the door, she turned around and looked at the group. The light bulb moment. She said, “Maybe it's because I had an operation on my stomach last month.” The entire group started laughing, like the connection was so strong. It made her laugh to recognize that's what was important to her. Of all the aspects, food has the biggest charge for people because how we relate to food or how we don't relate to food and use it as an emotional crutch and all sorts of things. Those scenarios show me the power is what's behind the game more than what I do or even more than what the game does. It's almost like its own energy that runs with it. Hugh: There is a shift for me. We are in a high performance culture, no matter where you live. We are expected to do things. We can shift from being human doings to human beings and live in the moment. Be in touch with parts of us that we haven't been in touch with in a while. Barry: Totally. My greatest gift, and I am grateful, is the fact I get to do this all the time. I get to open up and see and witness people opening up. The two biggest groups I get to witness is one, the person who is really quiet and doesn't say anything. We normally get a card and say, “I don't normally speak, and I don't know what to say. If I had to say something, it would be this wisdom.” Then the other one is the person, you might know those people as well, are the ones who talk all the time. They come up to me at the end and say, “It was great that I didn't have to have an answer for everything. I learned that I can actually be quiet,” because part of their thinking process is they have to have an answer for everything that is said. Hugh: Isn't that funny? We have imposed that on ourselves. We have to fill every minute with talking, and we have to have answers for everything. I keep seeing celebrities being interviewed, and the interviewer wants to trick them and ask these hard questions. They stumble with their answers. I think, Why do you try to answer? Just say next question. I am not answering that. Oh my Russell: I have been trying for myself to operate out of the philosophy that there is no accident in the design that I have two ears and only one mouth. My best bet is to try to at minimum use a proportional. Hugh: Funny. If people wanted to find out about this Conversations game, what is the URL they can go to? Barry: The easiest one is ConversationstheGame.com, and .au, for Australia. It's ConversationstheGame.com.au. Hugh: Conversations is the name of the game. ConversationstheGame.com. Barry: dot com dot au. Hugh: Oh, dot com dot au. Gotta have them both. Barry: Both. Dot com because it's relating to my business, and dot au because it's Australia. Hugh: Whoa. Put that in the notes so people can go there. We like to keep these interviews under an hour. I think we have given people a huge amount of value today. It's a physical game. Is there a virtual version of this game? Barry: One thing we are looking at, and I went to CEO space. Part of what I'm looking at is to create an online version. I do play online with people like we did here. My goal is to create an online version to connect people around the world so that people can start creating relationships and building friendships and building connections with people around the world. A number of things coming up: One is that the Conversations online is a project. If you go to the website, there is some information on that, if people are interested or interested in being a part of it. The other one is the Conversations documentaries, where we video full games and allow people to express who they really are. One of the things I recognize is that sometimes when people have been doing a lot of media, they almost have a script for answers, and you don't get to know the person behind the script. I think people would be really interested to know who some of the celebrities are behind the scripts. Some of these people would be more than open to say, “We have had to work through this ourselves.” Some new thought leaders would say, “We just didn't get here. We had to come from somewhere. We have had to work through this process.” The documentaries will be there to support that. We will start those in Australia as early as this year. But there is information on both of those on the website. There is information for people who want to be facilitators of the game. You can get a game and play it with your family and friends. If you want to play it with larger groups, there are processes I do to help people with that. I am really here to help you in whatever way, for your organization, whatever that is, to get that moving and to get your people talking to each other, to get the people they work with talking to each other, getting their families talking to each other. *Sponsor message about Rock Paper Simple* Hugh: Russell, before I give it to Barry for his final thought, what would you like to say to Barry or to us? Russell: Barry, thank you for the work you have done to create this. I am pretty excited about it. It is something I want to look into. In my conversations with people, the one thing I want to highlight is they have all sorts of brilliance already. I'd love to have people tap into that brilliance because they have a lot of their own answers. I ask a lot of questions. This is a remarkable tool that can help enhance that process. Thank you very much for the work you are doing. I look forward to interacting with you more in the future. Barry: Same here, Russell. It's been great to meet you. My wish for the game. I am going to put my biggest wish here for the game. I know when I created the game, the dream was actually more than the game. Part of the dream, there was a grassroots approach to get the game out there. It wasn't a Mattel toy you buy in the shop. It is people supporting people supporting people. My wish is that this game is in every family, every family gets the opportunity to play it. Every church has it in the church to help its congregations. Every nonprofit organization has it to support their volunteers and the work they do. I want every corporation to have a game so that we create a new way of doing business with each other. I want schools to have it so that kids know they are safe and can talk to each other as well. That is my real wish. I know I can't do that alone. I know it has to be a grassroots. If there are people out there who want to be part of this and help with that process, we already have 100 facilitators around the world. We haven't built up America yet. There is an opportunity there to look at that. If people want to support that process in making a difference in the way that we talk to each other. I want to thank you, Russell and Hugh, for the opportunity today to show people just how amazing this game is because I really feel I am a custodian for this game. It came through a dream. I feel that sense of responsibility to nurture it and get it out there to the world. Hugh: Barry, you are an inspiration. Thank you so much for sharing with the nonprofit community on The Nonprofit Exchange. Barry: Thanks, Hugh. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Staying in business can be difficult at times. Critical skills that are required to build a business exist and grow year after year. All business owners, at one time or another, find themselves struggling to keep clients (retention), to keep up with what customers want from the company (experience), and to add people (increase products). Over the last 20 years, Jess Dewell has worked on many of these problems with companies and clients. When there is a chasm to cross, she points it out and cultivates the team to figure out how to build a way across. Professional and thoughtful, she brings to the table. Transcript of the Interview Hugh Ballou: Greetings. Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. We are into the fourth year of this now, Russ. Russ, I know we're on an audio podcast, but I don't see your smiling face. All I see is a picture. One of your better pictures. Russell Dennis: Well, I'll fix that. I should be live. Hugh: There you are. I'm traveling today. I'm at a hotel in Orlando. We have a live audience here. We are going to be watching with bated breath, and we will come in with a few questions. We do have a little background noise, so I'm going to mute myself. It's probably a popular notion with some people, so we will mute our end so it will be quieter. Russ has got some really good questions for what I think is going to be an amazing interview today with- Jess, you know me, so I am just getting acquainted with you. I am going to pay attention. Jess Dewell: It's great how that happened. You meet somebody, and they tell you all about you and how you think, yet you have never met them before because of the personality and the ways that we get to communicate. I totally understand being in that place. Hugh: Love it. Tell us about yourself and how come you do what you do. Then Russell will take it on and ask you some really interesting questions. Jess: That sounds great. I am Jess Dewell. I founded Red Direction 14 years ago. It started out as something slightly different than what it became. It became building frameworks for resilience. What came up on the radio show that I host, which was live streamed right before we are live streaming here, we were talking about bounciness. The more struggle we face, the more that we fall down, the more risks we are willing to take, we get bouncier. I love the concept of that and how that fits into businesses. Businesses can get that concept of bounciness. Pick ourselves up together, and go forward together. The last seven years have really been dialed into what we do for organizations that are growing and changing. They are in these critical points of development, and their leadership got them so far, their skills got them so far, and now it's time to infuse them with more. Turn them upside down. Look at them in different ways to maximize the work flow, learning, and experience that already exists to go forward with grace and determination and whatever words you use to describe your companies. That is what we do over here at Red Direction. Russell: It's all about establishing the great culture. There are a lot of things that go into culture. For our audience, what does culture mean to you in the sense that applies to organizations? Jess: You could look it up on the Internet and get the definition that Google or whatever your search engine is will tell you. I define culture as how we work together, and the strength with which we are able to work together and its effectiveness. Russell: Yeah. What are some elements of culture that make organizations successful? Jess: What makes an organization successful? I am getting cues that your volume, Russ, is not as high as our audience would like. Since I got that message, I am going to pass it on to you right here. Will you repeat the question? Russell: What are some of the elements that go into culture that make an organization successful? Jess: Are you ready for this? Are you really ready for this, Russ? Russell: Bring it on. Jess: People, people, people. There might be a few more p's, and we will just replace them with people and people and people. It's the culture. It's what do we look at, how do we react, and preferably, how do we respond, and of course, how are the other people that we are surrounding ourselves with doing those things? And an awareness of the fact that we play off of each other. Russell: Because you work with a lot of organizations of all types, what do you find are the biggest disconnects in organizations that have problems culturally? Jess: Are you ready? Russell: I am ready. Jess: People, people, people, people, people. So really, it's we think we are doing one thing, and we are being perceived as something different. There is a break in our communication. We think somebody is doing something, but we never actually asked the clarifying question. Even some people go, “I have a dumb question.” You know what? The dumb question that goes unasked just leads to bigger misunderstandings, so might as well ask that and get rid of the qualifier at the same time. “I have a question. Did I understand this right?” We are thinking of culture, and we are thinking of how to work together as a team. We all have different reasons for being in the roles that we are at. A wise man once told me, “The people who work here choose with their own two feet every single day to come to work for us.” I thought that was really a fabulous thing, and understanding that everybody has a different reason for being here, to work together. Yes, we have all agreed to this goal; however, if we haven't created some sort of an awareness of how all of us fit into that end goal, we end up getting bumps and scratches and slowdowns and stalls and U-turns also. Russell: Let's look at the term “rules.” My good friend Dr. Hal Dibner talked with me the last time I saw him, we were actually talking about rules and how to move people to action. There are a lot of internal rules that each of us has that shapes the way we approach things and the way that we live. I think these rules can become internalized in the culture with an organization. What are some rules that you have seen that have become part of the culture of organizations that have hindered their progress? Jess: I call those “elephants in the room.” The big elephants in the room. One of the things that Red Directions' programs are really good at is finding the elephants in the room, pointing them out, setting up a little station, and inviting them to break them. Just being aware of what elephants are in the room. Another phrase might be “unwritten agreements.” We have done it this way. It's worked all right, so this is the way that we do it. Whether that's the case, or we are avoiding something, the elephants in the room, either way, when left unexplored, it can cause so many big problems. I have been a part of a company that has imploded because of that. I have also seen companies really unfortunately breed distrust and really feel fear around, “Am I actually safe in my role?” because of the unwritten agreements and insecurities and unknowns they cause. All that gets in the way of decision-making, which really when we are in business, is the ultimate goal: make decisions, nonprofit or otherwise, move toward an objective, make decisions, move toward an objective. Hit those goals and those signposts along the way. Russell: I think that the way people view their work really impacts the culture. When organizations get stuck, in my experience, a lot of people don't really like to be told what's wrong. At what point do you find that organizations have hit a place where they are willing to have those conversations? How much does it generally take in your experience for somebody to reach that point? Jess: It really varies. I have witnessed some other outlying symptoms if you will. If we were to look at symptoms that you are on your way down that rollercoaster, and you're not sure if there is an up at the other side, is that everybody is tired. Everybody is behind. They are unable to keep up with the things that they have going on, with the commitments that they have made, and it becomes a drag. Those are the types of things that allow us to miss other cues. We are turned off from actually using our external perception, and it's only stuck inside here. It can manifest other ways, too, besides the “I'm stuck,” “I'm overwhelmed,” or “I can't meet my deadlines.” People leave. I'm burned out. People leave. “This is not what I thought it was going to be.” People leave, and then they are talking about their experience. They don't talk about their experience until they leave. Nobody inside knew because there was a gap between each of the people, and there was “seemingly” to have a connection, but it was actually missing or had been broken. Russell: A lot of our work focuses around leaders and how leaders interact and work with people and a common problem is leaders that overfunction. Jess: Yes. Russell: They take on a lot of things rather than train people. They find that it's “quicker” just to do it myself than explain how to do it. Sometimes there is a fear of letting go of some control, not trusting people to do it. But if you bring people on to your team, you hire people because of the skills, knowledge, and abilities that will serve you, they have talent, and letting people actually do what it is that they do is a little difficult for leaders. That can get grounded in the culture. That creates burnout because you have a few high performers who are not being built to be better leaders, and they are just trying to do things instead of spreading them out, delegating, and building. The leadership skills of other people. We see that in nonprofits. Are you seeing that with- Jess: In every organization. Every organization is susceptible to that. It's interesting because yes, we hire for skills, knowledge, and ability. Most of the time, in most processes for bringing people on, what is left out, or what doesn't have enough focus in that interview and onboarding process is what we mean when we say whatever we value. If service to a specific group, serving an underrepresented group in some way, if somebody comes on and they have the skills, the knowledge, and the ability, but they are only using this as a stepping stone, and they are exactly what you want for the job, part of the conversation becomes, “We know this is just a stepping stone on your path. Are you able to buy in? What do you like? What are we disconnected on what you're doing while you're here? Do you understand with where you're going how this actually helps you get there?” You know what? A lot of people don't want to face the fact that they are hiring someone who is going to leave. However, if we bring it up in the conversation, and we are talking about this, and it's part of what we believe in, we know- We know we're not going to do what we're doing forever. We know we haven't done what we're doing forever. We have all had different experiences in the past. So why not just put that on the table? Then it's never a surprise. Then it's your performance reviews, your check-ins we're having along the way, the conversations we are having before, after, and during meetings can still revolve around what are we doing in this organization? What is our mission? What is each of our parts in that while we are here? That type of collaboration is what is going to make somebody want to stay, but also it will prepare them to get them to where they want to go. As leaders, as employers, anybody with staff, it is our job to embrace and to love and get that person where they want to go because maybe this is the place, maybe it's not, but we can do really well for them, for us, for our community, for our donors, for the people that we serve because of that small thing: having that type of conversation up front. Hugh: Hey, Russell. We are having trouble hearing you. Russell: It's all about growth. That better? It's all about growth. If you have a conversation about values, it's important for both individuals and the organization to understand what it is that people want to get out of a relationship that you have. This is how you attract people, whether they are working for you, volunteering for you, coming to work as a staff member, coming to serve on your board. It's having congruent values that will drive the day. The idea of growth is something that is fundamental to everything. To get better at what you do, you increase that level of support that you get. Culturally, with nonprofits, one of the things aside from the fact that you have some leaders that may overfunction, maybe they haven't thought through all of their processes or systems or how they can actually get better at creating an experience because they are more effective and efficient at delivering their programs. Talk a little bit about your experience around that and some of the things that you would help people work around that. Jess: I wouldn't say work around, I would say work with and strengthen. The reason is that we all have a strength. When we can put a stake in the ground and say, “This is what I stand for,” wherever I work, whoever I work with, I know what I stand for in general. That allows me to have a guidepost when I show up in an organization and when I am working with other people. If other people are floundering around and are not sure, we put on that lens. What is important to me? What is my purpose here? What is my purpose in this situation? Maybe not my life purpose, but in this situation. How can I bridge that gap to move things forward? Those are the types of skills that we develop, programs that we create. The biggest reason for that is experience. Until we do it, we don't know if we are good at it. Until we do it, we don't know how to apply our personal strengths to the work that we're doing. When we find our strength and can focus everything through that, it becomes easier as managers, as directors, to find the strengths in others and be curious and be willing to try a few things here to be curious with others to find their strengths as well. Maybe it's a strength. A lot of people know that they can stay behind an idea. In a nonprofit, I come to work for a nonprofit, I volunteer at a nonprofit, I give money to a nonprofit because I care about the idea they are working on. When it comes to actually doing the infrastructure, taking the action to make all that possible- You mentioned your values, how do we bring all of our skills together to get something done? But also you talked about processes and systems. Processes and systems are great on paper. As soon as you add people to them, you add what they are thinking in that moment, what their past was, what their dreams are, and what is on their mind right now in that situation. It may not be those things that are most important to working on an organization to develop it. Processes and systems are really impacted by all of the things that we care about, all of the things that we face. I am all about efficient systems, efficient processes. However, when we stop, when we weave what we care about, how we do our work together here at this organization, allows us to then be able to have a deeper conversation, a quicker conversation, which improves efficiency in a whole different way than just pushing the levers of a process. Hugh: How about a question from Florida? Danna Olivo: Yeah, Jess. Jess: Bring it. Danna: Bring it on. It's funny that we're talking about this today because- My name is Danna Olivo, and I am a business strategist. I work with early-stage micro-companies and medium companies. I work on those processes, the systems, and things like that. But one of the things that was really fascinating to me was you were talking about communication styles and hiring and things like that, talking about skills and values. One of the things that a lot of companies don't take into consideration when hiring are the behavioral and cultural characteristics that are inbred in the people they are looking to hire and making sure that those cultural characteristics match the organization. Therefore, in order to do that, what we have done is we are trying to make a concerted effort to try and match those cultures to the behavioral characteristics to get a better understanding of their fit within the organization. Jess: May I ask you a question? Danna: Yes. Jess: When you're thinking about that, that means an organization really has to know. Danna: The whole thing just dropped. Jess: That means an organization has to really know where they stand. They understand that what they're doing is already working. Do you find that a company is going to need some other help and some other work actually figuring out where they stand as an organization versus just being able to put this on top of what already exists? Danna: Yes, I do find that part of the whole process is we have to make sure that they have those working systems and methodologies in place. Part of that process involves bringing the team on that will work with them in order to do that. If they aren't centered around the same cultural values that the company has set in place, you are going to end up with a divided approach to these systems and methodologies. Does that make sense? Jess: It makes complete sense. In fact, sometimes, in an existing organization that is going back, they are going, “We are having this problem hiring the right people. We are having this problem keeping the people we want who have the skills in our roles.” When we get to that, it's interesting because people are always like, it's the people. It's the talent we are facing. They forget to look inward. Those would be the things where I'd be like, How strapped are ya? Because you might be better off having somebody do some temp work just for a short period of time, stop to take a step back, and evaluate some other things. Those are the elephants. You're talking about the elephants in the room right there, Danna, and being able to recognize what we are willing to incorporate right now for where we are. One of the things that I hear in the work that you and I do, people want me to come in, and they think I can change everything. The answer is no, I can't change anything. I can only facilitate and create a program to educate to allow that change to occur within an organization. The other thing that people think, in all organizations, both profit and nonprofit, I get a lot of work done from people who have just done a rebrand, thinking that rebranding will actually solve the problems that we are unclear about what we stand for. You probably are unclear about what you stand for, but the way you look and describe yourself doesn't matter. It's a Band-Aid, isn't it? Danna: I love the fact that you're talking about this because we are all about education. What I teach my people is you can't operate in a vacuum. You don't have all the answers. You have to surround yourself with that team that will be able to help you reach those goals. You have to surround yourself with those people who will be able to say, “You're off base.” Jess: I keep pointing with two different colored pens because these are the notes that I take. Anybody listening is going to be like, “What is she talking about?” I have two pens to take notes on every conversation that I have because there are things I want in one color and other things in another color. All of my notes have been written on before by a third color. If I hold up pens at you, it just means I'm excited. Yes! Nonetheless, I hear what you're saying. You're right. It is about education. You said something that made me think about a program that we have. We talk about ThinkTime. This is a combination of words, think and time, that might be heard in the same sentence, that are squished together with no spaces. ThinkTime. This is something that we do at Red Direction. We have a process. How do I, as the steward of this mission that we're on, whether it's an entire organization, whether it's a business unit, whether it's my particular role, how do I in the stewardship of my position have time to actually allow all the chatter to get out? Because all that chatter has to get out to have new creative thoughts. More importantly, ThinkTime, a lot of people are like great. I like a whole day; however, I don't use a whole day. I use a half day to get started. I use four hours, once a week for four hours, closing everything out. This is how that system typically goes. I am going to give you all the steps. You guys can play with this as much as you want. That is first, put it in a calendar, and guard it fiercely. Four hours, one time a week. The first month, the first four, maybe the first eight, you are going to think they are useless. They will feel useless. All you will want to do is catch up on email. All you want to do is clear up the clutter on your desk. All you want to do is return those phone calls. All you want to do is write out a report that needed to happen or think about reports. It takes some time. But after about eight to ten sessions of four hours, all of a sudden, you sit down. I remember this so clearly the first time I did this. This is going to work; this is so great! You sit down, and it's like, Okay, I actually see the Red Direction vision. I actually see the actions that we're taking right now. I can just experience what that looks like and have an idea of what problems we're facing right now, where we're doing really well, and then what are the things that we could be doing better or different? When we have that space outside of our ThinkTime is when we go, Let's break it down into a problem. Do I have a problem here? What's that problem? Let's go through those four steps of problem-solving. Then we can go bright. When we get to the options, we get to make a decision. Being confident in a decision comes from not running around rapid, not thinking or knowing we are never going to have all the answers no matter how much information you know about it, but we spent the time upfront to decide what the decision was, what the problem is we are going to solve. We are evaluating the path, not just a solution, but the path to betterment, the path to what we want next. The more we get to do that, that's the second piece, the more we get to practice those steps, the more confident we become in our decisions, and we can make them quicker. We can evaluate and get rid of options that don't work right now. Tell me this, Danna, and whomever is sitting next to you, and Russ. When you are sitting here and looking at all these problems you're looking at all these things that are going on. I can choose any one of them. I don't know what this means; you have too many options. Does that happen to you? Occasionally, sometimes, all the time. Danna: Oh yes, even as a strategist, I find that I have to take a step back and decide, Okay, which one do I need to focus on right now? First of all. Secondly, what is the fastest way to come into a solution? By taking that step back sometimes and evaluating what is my talent, what is it, my talent that can help me come up with that solution? If I can't find the talent within me to provide a solution, then I have a resource of people around me who I reach out to. I am not afraid to bring them in. You can't operate in a vacuum. You said this. Our capacity as an entrepreneur only extends so far. Jess: That's right. Danna: This happens to me. Jose Belen here, has a new nonprofit that he is starting called Mission Zero. Great nonprofit. We happen to be meeting Hugh here so we can get some tips and learn and stuff like that. Do you have any questions for her? Jose Belen: No. Actually, this has been very informative. We have been around for about six months. Mission Zero is an organization dedicated to helping veteran suicide. That was part of the initial invasion into Iraq in 2003. Since I was honorably discharged in 2005, I have been fighting PTSD and suicidal thoughts. Every 80 minutes, there is a veteran somewhere in America committing suicide. We are dedicated to making a difference. So Mission Zero hopefully one day will stop veteran suicides. We appreciate any support and like-minded individuals. Thank you. Danna: So they took the advice that you are giving. They have been surrounding themselves with the people who can help them get this off the ground rather than trying to do it all themselves. Hugh: Jess, you probably know more about me than I know about you, but I'm quite amazed at the synchronicity of what you are talking about. I will give it back to Russell. I hijacked his questioning here. But it's the synchronicity of what you are talking about and what we teach at SynerVision. This whole culture piece is core to transformational leadership and how we empower leaders. Thank you for such a passion around this. Love it. So, Russell, remember the old age and mental condition? I will give it back to you. Russell: Almost escaped without that. He loves that one. That is his trademark thing. I don't know why. It's not true. He likes it. He entertains himself with that story. He's going to find out as he gets to spend more time with you and learn more about you how remarkable you are. We haven't known each other very long, but I love what you're doing. What you're talking about is creating safe spaces and collaboration. Collaboration is something that I think people are slowly starting to get. It's a really important piece of everything that we do. It's about people. I just had a mastermind this morning with other business leaders who were talking to me about helping me and my business. It doesn't matter how many people you meet. A lot of times, there is that little piece of us that resists. Talk to us a little bit about how you help businesspeople, nonprofit leaders, some of the tools that you use to help them face that inner resistance. That is the one thing an organization, it's all about people. We have this built-in resistance. Part of it is to change and some other things. Talk a little bit how you equip people to deal with that resistance and what they should look for. Jess: Such a loaded question. There are like 212 ways—that is when water boils—we could start this conversation. I think ultimately the point is that water will boil. If we resist long enough, we have no choice, just like water in a pan on a stove. It doesn't matter how long you leave it there. It will eventually reach 212 degrees and boil. I feel like when, so tools. Let's talk about tools. A lot of the tools that we teach are soft skills. The reason we teach soft skills is because I can come up with a process just like all of the other processes out there. Some would be good, and some would not be as good as the other ones out there. We all work differently. When we all work differently, and we are thinking about how we do what we do, we don't give ourselves grace. We resist what our own strength is and how we work. We are going to go back and use me as an example. There were five people in my family, three kids and two adults. Every Sunday, we would sit at the dining room table after dinner and we would look at the whole next week. If it wasn't on the calendar, it did not happen. It was the time to ask questions, get permission, do all of this stuff. I grew up with this time management concept. I grew up with this concept of, Okay, we know who the decision-maker is, the person who can drive. If it doesn't fit in their calendar, it can't work, so I have to make a really good case that my stuff is more important than my sister's. This happens in business. This same thing happens in business. We get together, whether we are using time management skills or not, it comes down to how persuasive are we, how passionate are we? Can we clearly communicate the beginning, middle, and end of an idea to move it forward? Some people use time. I am really good at time and time blocking, and ThinkTime is a part of that. I am also really adept, and the programs we teach around soft skills are also around time management because we can only scale so much. We can only scale so much with one person. Each person can only scale so much. The whole purpose of being in an organization is to be able to understand what is my purpose, how do I leverage my time? What is their purpose, and how do we leverage their time? Have a good time doing it. Enjoy being together. You mentioned the word “ collaboration.” I think collaboration fits in a lot of different ways here. We are talking about- By the way, everybody who thinks collaboration- I am going to stop what I was going to say and talk about collaboration. I have a bad taste in my mouth when somebody says collaboration because I remember when, and we can all do this, I remember a time I was on a collaborative cross-functional team, and I did all the work. Now you know- You're a driver. You're going to do what it takes. Right? So we have to let that go. Those of us who feel that way, and other people are like, Ooh, collaboration. I give ideas, give ideas, give ideas, and I don't have to do anything. Let me just be an idea machine. Well, that only works to a point, too. Then there are the people who will take different kinds of action and throw in what some of us would call kinks in the wheel, but they are trying to make it better. They are poking holes in it. Can we get this to a point where we are seamless, we have something that can stick that we all agree on? Those people are really necessary, too. When we embrace not everybody does well, not everybody thinks well, not everybody wants to be the devil's advocate, then we get to go, “Hey, we need everybody.” We can do this in a different way. We can have a conversation. Collaboration starts with a conversation. What are we doing? What can our parts be? How can we move this forward together? Hugh: Jess, you have opened up a lot of topics. Jess: I know, right? Hugh: You're in here because Russell invited you. I have to work hard so I can keep up with him. He's a smart dude. What I'm going to throw out here is I'd like to take a couple of these themes and come back around and dig into some of these themes a little deeper. You have a whole lot of stuff to unpack here. We are coming to the top of the hour for this particular show. I want to talk about the sponsor moment here that makes it possible and give you a chance to wrap people's heads around some of the major themes you want to leave us with. Then we will let Russell close us out. Does that sound good to you guys? Russ has been really diligent in helping us pull this together today with a whole lot of technical issues. *Sponsor message for Rock Paper Simple* Jess, how would you like to wrap this up and leave folks with? What is a profound thought you want to leave people with before Russ closes out this great session? Jess: All right, we just upped the ante. The most profound thought you want to leave us with, Hugh. There is no low bars here. Everybody, I have listened to a few of these in preparation for this conversation. Of course, I know Hugh, and I know Russ. There is no going back; there is only forward. I think that that's really a key piece of what culture and what we're talking about when we are talking about these elements of culture is that we are always moving forward. We can embrace it. We can resist it. Either way, it's coming. We can make it more fun. We can make it more effective, and we can serve more people when we get out of our own way and we recognize our own self and how we can show up and invite others to continue to join our party. Russell: Great stuff. In conversation with what's happening with anything that I touch has to start in the mirror. That is the X factor. That is the one thing I can actually do something about. The willingness to actually look at where we are as individuals energetically makes a big difference. We can find some compassion for ourselves in there and in other people and put ourselves in their shoes and say, “How can we create an experience? How can we get to the larger point? What are the things we need to put on the shelf to make this thing work the way it is built to work?” That is really where it starts. Jess, as always, it's been a pleasure. Danna, Hugh, all of our friends down at CEO Space, the July forum, wonderful organization. Being a part of that has changed my life. I have a contact in veteran suicide that is actually somebody that has been in Texas shining the spotlight on it. His primary thing is to get their stories captured. We will cycle back around and talk about that again. In the meantime, I'd like to thank all of our listeners out there every week who join us here at The Nonprofit Exchange. We got a really good guest next week. He is going to be talking about conversations. He has an incredible tool that can help us look at the way we have conversations on a personal and professional level. You don't want to miss this because he has got a brilliant tool called Conversations. Join us next week for that. Hugh. Hugh: Thank you, Russ. Thank you, Jess. It's been a great session. Thank you so much. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Danna Olivo is a Business Growth Sequencing Strategist and CEO of MarketAtomy, LLC. Her passion is working with small first stage entrepreneurs to ensure that they start out on the right foot and stay on the path to financial freedom. Known as the Business Birthing Specialist, Danna understands the intricacies involved in starting and running a successful business. Her efforts extend beyond the initial strategic planning process on into the implementation and monitoring phase. As an intricate component ingrained into her client's business structure, she works diligently to keep her client's accountable and on track to fulfilling their success goals. A graduate of the University of Central Florida's College of Business, Danna holds degrees in both Marketing and Management Information Systems (MIS). She brings more than 35 years of strategic planning experience in business, marketing and business development both nationally and internationally. Danna is not only a professional business growth strategist but has worked as an International Strategist within the country of Brazil, is a public speaker and #1 Best Selling Author on Amazon with “Success From The Heart” and “Journey To The Stage.” Her newest book “MarketAtomy: What To Expect When Expecting A Business” is now available through Amazon on Kindle. What You will learn in this session: What do Sponsors/Donors Expect How to Build an Infrastructure to support the Donor Experience The 7 steps for creating a lasting Donor Experience   Here's the Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Our guest today is Danna Olivo. First day with the new teeth. Danna and I have been colleagues for a while, and I have grown to appreciate her work more each time I hear her present. We are talking about sponsors and donors and how to really keep that relationship at the highest level because it's good for them, it's good for us. We just need to know how to do the talking and create a system around that. I am not going to waste any more time. I like for guests to introduce themselves, so tell us a wee bit, a couple of minutes, about your background and what prepared you for being able to do this powerful work on this topic. Before you finish, talk about why you chose this. What is your passion for this? Danna Olivo: Oh goodness. As Hugh said, my name is Danna Olivo. I like to call myself the Business Birthing Specialist. The reason that I go by that title is because I like working with early-stage and emerging entrepreneurs, whether they are nonprofit or for-profit. They are still in that birthing stage of their company. I am a business growth strategist at heart. That is backed up with more than 40 years in marketing, business development, and sales. That is where we get around to the experience that we are talking about: creating donor and sponsor experience. I work with for-profits and nonprofits to basically teach them how to build an infrastructure that attracts customers to their door and ultimately create an experience where they come out as advocates on the back end. That is where my background is. Hugh: You have taught at my live leadership empowerment symposium events. You and I are cooking up an event. We will do that again in Florida. We come to Florida on a regular basis. We are going to tag onto it a funding conference. Some of the stuff we are talking about will specifically be talking about fund sourcing and activation and maintenance for those running charities. It could be a church, synagogue, a membership organization, a cause-based charity. Any people doing, and really these are social entrepreneurs. That is still your sweet spot. Danna: Whether you are dealing with for-profit companies, nonprofit companies, churches, the thing to keep in mind is we are still dealing with a business. We are still dealing with entrepreneurs. We have to also keep in mind we are still dealing with customers. Whether they be sponsors or donors or customers or parishioners, they are customers. We have to keep that mindset when we are thinking about it. Hugh: You are so spot-on. We tend to think things are going to happen because we have a charitable cause. Not really. We are not really good at defining why it's important and the impact of our work. We don't really attract the money we deserve to attract because we are doing good work. We have a lot of different themes that we deal with in this episode. This podcast has been going on for three years. We have interviewed specialists like you who have brought some really good content. You are in good company as are they today. Danna, let's set the stage a little bit. What is your passion for helping early-stage entrepreneurs get their head around this really important topic of donor/sponsorship? Danna: My passion stems from failures in the past. That is where a lot of my passion comes from. The mistakes learned and wanting to teach others how to avoid those mistakes. Working with small businesses, whether nonprofit or for-profit, but we are going to focus on nonprofit. When you start a business, a nonprofit business, it is cause-based generally. Cause-based businesses are emotional. You are tapping into the emotion. That is what you're trying to do. Well, therefore, going after those customers, those sponsors and donors, you need to match that emotion to those sponsors and donors in order to get them to buy into your cause, right? Where my purpose is is teaching early-stage entrepreneurs there is a sequence to this. There is a sequence behind the research that has to go in to target those individuals that are more likely to emotionally buy into your cause, but also to understand what that messaging is that needs to be developed in order to reach those people. Not only on the sponsor/donor side, but what about on the other side? The people who are coming in that need your services, need your social platform. They need what you are providing through your platform. Hugh: In business, whether it is a nonprofit, you're right. We need to install sound business practices in the charities or religious institutions we run. It is a business with more rules than a for-profit business. We are regulated with good reason. The people can give us money and write it off on their taxes for good reason, or sponsors can give us marketing money because we create value for everyone. There is a little different nuance for sponsors and donors. Let's take the donor piece first. We ask people to donate and support a cause. This is what's going to happen. Then they fall off by the wayside and they don't donate again, or they don't tell other people. What is the biggest problem you see, the gap that hasn't been filled with people running an organization and managing these donor relations? Danna: Their structure. The structure that they put in place. It's one thing to get those donors, to get those sponsors to the door. But if you cannot create that experience that I talk about, which involves the structure of the organization, then you are not going to be able to carry them through and create that experience that will turn them into advocates afterwards. Ultimately, that is what we want to do. We want to create our own sales team or our own promotional team on the back end because of the experiences that they had while working with our program. Hugh: Okay. I get that. That is theory. Turn it into practice. What does that structure look like? If somebody is listening to this and goes, “Wow, I need to maintain this relationship, but I don't know where to start.” What does that structure look like? Danna: Oh goodness. You can start so many different places. First of all, you have to put yourself in the mindset of the sponsor or the donor. What are they looking for? What are their expectations? They are expecting to get out of this relationship that they are with you on. On the sponsor side, are there expectations to really create a brand out there in the marketplace by helping you in creating more of a brand recognition on the social side? On the donor side, are they really- Do they want to feel empowered by helping something they are really emotional about? What is it that they are expecting? Most of the time, what you are going to be looking at is they want to be appreciated. If they are not shown appreciation, or they want to see transparency, and especially on the nonprofit side because if they don't feel as though their money is being utilized the way it should be utilized, and as promised, chances are you won't get them back again. That's what we want. We want these donors and sponsors to come back again and again, especially when we have to depend on federal dollars as well. Those federal dollars can be pulled at any time. Hugh: It's really hard to get donors. We are competing with all these other charities out there. We want to have a process of maintaining that relationship. We don't think about the donors until it's time to donate again, and then we send a panicked letter saying, “We need your donation for next year,” but we haven't talked to them all year. Danna: That is it. That is what I am talking about. They want to feel as though they are appreciated. They want and expect you to keep them in the loop. How are their dollars doing? What's happening? Show them the results. Give them the statistics. Hugh: Say that again. Danna: You need to consistently be communicating with them. You need to show them what their dollars are doing as far as your cause. What are those statistics? How many of those lives are you affecting? How many people are you helping with the dollars they are giving you? Hugh: Why are those important? Danna: First of all, consider the fact that they are giving because they are passionate about their giving. They want to make sure that you are using their money to make a difference. That is one reason. They are passionate. This is their way of contributing. If you are not being transparent about it, they will go somewhere else that is doing the same thing in hopes they will be doing better. Hugh: I think it's probably gratifying for a donor to see I gave this money, and you say, “This is what we were able to do with your money.” Danna: A perfect example is my husband and I like contributing to the Smile Organization, primarily because we had relatives in the past that have had cleft lips. There is an organization out there that helped those who have deformed lips, cleft lips, that create these smiles. These are children. It really means a lot to us when we see one of these children being able to smile again and feeling good about what has happened after one of these surgeries. These surgeries don't cost a lot in these foreign countries. Hugh: That is such a great example. Several times in my life, I ran with the Leukemia/Lymphoma Society and pledged to raise a few thousand for leukemia and lymphoma research. At the race, I was connected to a particular patient with a wristband. It had their name, age, and condition on it. I was running for one person, but also for others, and I felt really purposed. Going back to the people who donated for me to run, they were betting on whether I would finish or not I'm sure, but they donated that few thousand and I did the running. We've been joined by the good-looking Russell Dennis in Denver, Colorado, and he just snuck in. He has experience in the funding seat for 11 years. Is that right, Russ? Russell Dennis: It is good to see you, Danna and Hugh. Danna: Haven't seen you since the last time we were on together. Russell: That's been far too long. With donors, one thing I find with people is that there is something magic about face-to-face contact. If you can have some non-ask events where you are not asking for money, just bringing them in to meet some of the people who are benefiting from your dollars, have them tour your facility, talk to other people, show them the exciting things their money is doing, and keeping them in the loop. Some people are going to want to be contacted more than others. It's having a system to keep track of people and keep those connections. It is really something that if you can, you should have a single person try to keep the flow going. A director will do a lot of the face to face, but you want somebody to keep that communication loop open. Danna: That's what I'm saying. You need to communicate with them. Involve them in the process, show them how their dollars are working, and help them be involved in it, as far as that's concerned. First of all, the donors aren't mind-readers. If you are not communicating with them, they are going to assume, and you don't want them assuming. You want them to feel comfortable with where their dollars are being spent, and that they are making a difference. Am I right, Russell? Russell: Spot on. At least, you can survey. It is just asking how are we doing, what would you like to see more of. They won't know what they want to see more of if they don't know what you're doing. Keeping them in the loop is important. Surveying them- Danna: Serving on one of the boards of a local nonprofit here, one of the biggest things that nonprofits do run into is the budget cuts with federal dollars. I was sitting in on the board of Hope and Help, which is HIV/AIDS awareness. One of the biggest struggles we had was the fact that the other agencies like ours were fighting for these federal dollars. We didn't really have in place any kind of public in-flow, or what we did have was very little. All we had was one major annual event that we did. That event only happened once a year. The dollars that we have to spend on expenses happen every month. That is where these sponsored dollars and donor dollars come in. Why should we have to rely only on federal money, which constantly is being cut back, and we never know we are going to have it year to year because there are other agencies fighting for it? How do we build those relationships with donors that we can count on every year? That is where we are going with this. Through transparency and by creating that donor experience that we can count on every year because we are meeting each other's needs on both sides, that is where we are going to be able to overcome that issue of the gap between the dollars we need and the dollars that are coming in. Hugh: That is the consistency. There is a rhythm to the communication. What is the mechanism you suggest people stay in touch? I think sending an email occasionally is not the answer, is it? Danna: First of all, because we are talking about relationships and creating an experience, it all boils down to service. That is what it's all about. Servicing your donors. I use that as an acronym, and I built seven guidelines using the word “service.” The first is S, which is scalable. What I mean by the S in service is deliver an awesome donor experience that scales as your company grows. This involves knowing your donor. How do you make their giving decisions? How do they make their giving decisions, and understanding that? This is where this research comes in. Why would they donate? The E is for Essential. What that is, today there is no shortage of tools available for gathering predictive data on sponsors and donors. The problem is getting that data is not enough. You need to understand and know what is happening in the background. What is the chatter going on in the background that really speaks to what is really important? Most of your research is built around the dollars that are given. Most of your primary research is based on dollars given in this event. There is chatter that happens out in the ether. What we call is deep data mining. We need to understand that and monitor that and combine that. R is for Relatable. What relatable is is when you are in the fundraising mode, it's important to listen and understand what motivates your donors. What is important to them? V is for Valuable. Intuitively, most people recognize the value of great customer service or donor service, but what are the causes? Causes that deliver value are ones that the sponsors will want to interact with. We want to create engagement. They will become more loyal as long as they can become engaged. This is where we get back to what we were talking about before as long as communicate with them, get them involved, invite them in, hold events that you're not trying to gather their money but are bringing awareness. A perfect example is I have a 30-year-old niece who has Down syndrome. Because of this, I find myself being drawn to organizations that are committed to creating healthy independent living spaces/environments for individuals with Down syndrome. Some of those, what they do is provide a lifestyle where these individuals are creating and giving back to society. Those are the kinds of organizations I get involved with because they are close to my heart. It's important for us to be able to relate to why the donor is giving. I is for Involvement. The donor experience involves a top-down approach. This is key. When the donor gives, they want to know that they are giving to the organization, and that it's being recognized from the very top, not just from the people who are the representatives. They want to feel as though they are recognized from the top, from the directors of these organizations. Does that make sense? C is for Credible. This is a given. Trust is the backbone to credibility. It's important that you do what you say you are going to do and when you say you are going to do it. Be consistent in your promises. Be transparent and communicative with sponsors. All of this is a given. We have known this all along. This is what comes with credibility. Finally, E is for what's Expected. Deliver what they expect. We talked about that earlier. Did you make them feel valued? Did you treat them like they are important? Did you anticipate their needs for giving? Did you make them? Make it easy for them to engage. This is another thing. If you don't make it easy for them to donate, they won't jump through hoops. Did you show them that you cared? Did they feel loved? These are all important. These are the seven steps that I see that need to be built into the structure that will develop that donor relationship that will keep them coming back time and time again. Hugh: I remember that model. Give us the acronym again and the words. Danna: SERVICE. S is for Scalable. E is for Essential. R is for Relatable. V is for Valuable. I is for Involvement. C is for Credible. E is for Expected. Hugh: This sounds like she's got a page out of your playbook, Russell. Russell: She has her own playbook, and it's wonderful. That is one of the beauties of talking to brilliant people like Danna. I learn more all the time. You can never learn too much. It is creating that experience and value. That is seen to be a dirty word around charities. Nobody would use the word “value,” but you are in the value creation business. That is what it's all about. Danna: Like I said, it doesn't matter if you are nonprofit, for-profit, whatever. Ultimately we are not here to make money because that is not generally what a nonprofit is all about. A nonprofit is creating an environment that helps others, whatever it is, but it takes money to do that. Therefore, you have to find that money. Russell: We get stuck with so many bottom lines because you have funding agencies, foundations, individual donors who come in all shapes and sizes. You have regulators, media, clients. You have all these bottom lines, and everybody has a different thing that is most important to them. It's juggling all of that is at the center of relationship building. It's asking questions. It's talking to people, keeping them informed, asking them what they want to see more of, what they like, what we should keep doing, what we should stop doing. It's just constant contact, which is the name of the game. Danna: Most nonprofits get so wrapped up in the cause that they don't worry about the business side of things. I wouldn't say they don't worry, but they don't think they need the business side of things because they are so wrapped up in the cause that they think putting the cause out there is going to attract. That is not necessarily the case. You have to treat it just like a business. You have a message you have to put out there. You have research you have to do to find out who is most likely to contribute financially to the growth of this cause, of this nonprofit. Who are the organizations that we can count on as sponsorships to support us when we need it? All of those- There is a science behind it. There is a science behind growing nonprofits as well as for-profits. Hugh: Before we switch over to the sponsor track, Russ, he is the one that asks the real hard questions, Danna. Have you got a question or comment for her besides what you have already said? Russell: I was thinking about sponsors versus donors but we are getting ready to roll into that. The one thought I did have was with starting a nonprofit or socially responsible business, it's our baby, and we love it. We birthed it, we throw it over our shoulder, we burp it, and we can really get lost because the important thing is what other people who are impacted by the organization value is not necessarily what I think is valuable. It's what the people I want to try to serve think is valuable. There are so many different ones; that's where it gets complicated. Danna: It is very complicated. I think Hugh will agree with me: You can't rely on just one source. You have to integrate the levels. It's almost like having different revenue streams. Even in the for-profit side, I tell my clients not to rely on just one revenue stream. You don't rely only on funding grants. You don't rely only on certain things because what you will find is those grants will be yanked, and you won't have it coming in anymore. You have people to pay, clients that are yours that you promised services, and now you can't afford to deliver. You have to develop a diversified approach to bringing money into a nonprofit, from the donor side, from the sponsor side, even legacy. Look at legacies. Get people involved enough to where they are so passionate about it that they will leave you mentioned in their wills. Those kinds of things. Hugh: Absolutely. Russell: What makes it more challenging is it's important to have those multiple streams, but only as many as you can manage well. It's the phased and systematic growth with first things first that takes all of the planning and building of the right structure, the strategy so that you don't get overwhelmed and you grow to all of these different sources. You need as many as you can, but only as you can manage well. Danna: You're right. The other thing to keep in mind though when you are setting up your revenue streams, how you will bring your money in, you also need to be looking at what are your monthly expenses, what is it you need to have every month so that you can plan this? Even in a nonprofit, you have to have a cash flow analysis, a cash flow statement, because you can't go on a wing and prayer. You still have expenses. You have services you have to deliver. It costs money. My son, I love him dearly, and he is extremely intelligent. All his life, he has wanted to live off the land. He does not want to rely on anything. Growing up, I always told him, “Sweetheart, I appreciate that. That's great. How are you going to get the land? You need money. How are you going to get the seeds to grow your vegetables? You need money.” There is a science to it. You have to plan this stuff. Hugh: That is the anchor of this foundation underneath all of this. If you all are ready, let's pivot over to the sponsor side of things. The donors are making a philanthropic gift. Their return on investment is a return on life that we give people in this sector, ROL. They want to see something happen. You've done a very good job of describing staying in touch with them, letting them know what the results are from their money. Sponsors are not making donations; they are spending marketing money because they want their brand associated with your brand. There are challenges with sponsorship. Talk about that channel a little bit and how to get top-of-mind with those sponsors and how to stay there. Danna: First of all, sponsorship dollars, when someone is sponsoring a nonprofit, they are doing it for a couple of reasons. First, the credibility, the connection to whoever it is they are sponsoring. Secondly, definitely for tax purposes. All of this other stuff. More importantly than anything, they are looking for a direct connection to whoever it is they are sponsoring and that brand that comes with it. The credibility, the recognition that comes with that sponsorship. To get those sponsors though comes that data we are talking about, the statistics. Most sponsors want to see that data of what your cause or what your platform has done. There has to be some kind of history there for them to feel good enough to be able to sponsor. Hugh: There is a negative brand reputation if your brand isn't good enough. They want to verify it will give them a positive spin on their brand. Danna: As much as they can be connected to any messaging, marketing, whatever is going out, the better. If you have got a nonprofit and you're developing videos and doing things like that, they want to be involved in that in one way or another as a sponsor. Hugh: There is a lot of similarities. Sponsorship is sponsorship. They want to see how many eyeballs, they want to create energy coming back to their business. In addition to what you have with the for-profit sponsorships, there is an affinity. Sponsors come on with something they have a passion for, or they want to see what happens or there is a philanthropic piece to the sponsorship. It's still their marketing dollars, but they have an emotional piece. There is some rules around sponsorship, like we can't do a direct call to action for a nonprofit. There is that IRS category of unrelated business income that then becomes taxable. There is a different protocol on the back end, but we are still representing the brand and the brand value and the brand promise and the brand identity to the sponsor. Continue. This is helpful. Danna: One of the other things that most nonprofits don't realize is it's most known for the for-profits sponsoring nonprofits. The nonprofits are looking for the for-profits to bring money in. What they are not taking into consideration is they can bring going out. For instance, with our funding conference that you're a sponsor of, Hugh, SynerVision Leadership, in order for me and my company to be able to go out for community dollars, I needed a nonprofit arm. That is where that value can come in with a nonprofit, and there is another income stream that can come in by doing that, by partnering synergistically, strategically partnering. Hugh: We have some relations in how the money flows, but that is why you have good accountants to help you set up those systems. Money is a value exchange. We are not really good at describing the value. I see a lot of charities get sponsors, and they put up a banner, put their name in the program, and mention them. There is not a lot of value received for a sponsor, and there is no checking expectations, how this fits into your overall marketing plan. Give us more ideas as to how we can create that lasting relationship with sponsors. Danna: That is where we go right back to what we are talking about on the donor side. We need to understand what their expectations are. What do they expect out of this sponsorship? Are they looking to participate? Are they looking to just have their brand brought in? We have to look at what their expectations are. What are their needs? They may have specific needs they are looking at with their sponsorship. Are they looking to bring into an environment that may need their services, either legally or financially or whatever? They may be sponsoring because it will introduce them to a different market that they could bring in as clients. We have to look at, and we have to understand what their expectations are in order for them to keep coming back. Hugh: Russ, I bet you are liking that one. Russell: It's true. What we are talking about here is a value for value exchange. With the nonprofit, money is very important, but it's not everything. It's the reason that the nonprofit is set up for. What is that value you can exchange? What is the sponsor looking for? Do you have a synergy where your values are concerned? Are you going to expose them to new customers? This is a metric we are talking about. How much media exposure are they going to get? We are talking about good will. We are talking about more bang for the buck. If they run out of sponsorship money, if they like what you've got, they will dip into some marketing dollars because you could actually get them a lot more bang for their buck. You have to understand as you approach a sponsor if you can do that. There is an art to it. You have to have a conversation with them. Is it possible that you can have a multi-year agreement? If you are going to go in and talk to them, you might as swell swing for the fence instead of having a one and done. Try to build that relationship and see what makes sense. Put some markers in there so that you can grow it. You want to keep these folks coming back. There is a difference. A lot of people mistake sponsorship for donations. They will go out and talk to businesses. We have this event, we'd like some auction items and these types of things. You have donations on one hand and sponsorship on the other. A donation is something they just give you. If they are looking for a value-for-value exchange in a pure sponsorship, they will look at who else has sponsored you. One question they will have in their minds is: Let's take Apple and Google. You go to Apple and say, “I have this event.” It could be an event where you try to bring in people, and you want Apple to be a sponsor. One question they are going to have is if we don't do this, will Amazon do it, or Microsoft, or Google? They may want some exclusivity. You never know. That would be a darn good problem to have. Danna: Yes, it would. Definitely it would. But you are right. Understanding what their expectations are, they get hit by nonprofits all the time. They have to weigh the value that is coming out of their sponsorship dollars if they are going to be giving away. How will that benefit me? Am I going to be fighting against competition? Am I going to be fighting against my morals, my culture? Does it match? Us as a nonprofit have to be looking at that before we even approach them because those are the questions they are going to ask. If we are not prepared to answer them ,chances are we will lose them. Russell: From what I have learned from other people who have been successful at getting sponsorships, some of what they do is approach people. They do their homework, a lot of research, and they try to approach the right people. They ask questions. People approach grant funders in this same manner. Building the relationships, looking at who might be a fit, and actually reviewing their website, reviewing whatever medium/material you have available, and calling a program officer, calling the appropriate person at the headquarters to ask them for a short informational interview. Do your homework so that you are not asking them stuff that is readily available. That will put a dent in your credibility off the bat. You ask questions to find out what is not between the lines. What is not written to get a feel for what sort of stuff they look for, what they are proud of, what did you do that worked, and ask what events they sponsored before. If it looks like you can deliver something that might be important to them, ask them if you can send them a proposal. You're not sending something blind. Doing that with private foundations saves you a lot of time, especially if you don't have a lot of resources or grant writers to go do it. Having those conversations, they remember you. You might have to make some adjustments in your language. You don't want to shift who you are and what you're about and what you're doing, but you may need to adjust the language to put it in the proposal to persuade them to fund you. Danna: One thing I have run into in the past if you are starting a new nonprofit or are in the early stages, oftentimes you will find that some nonprofits will try to beef things up in their proposals over and above what they are. It needs to be understood that you are going to be vetted. It's important that you are credible and transparent in everything that you do. Otherwise, you're going to lose those sponsorships, those donors, anything that you are going after. This is what a lot of nonprofits run into sometimes; they are not able to back up, whether with social proof or data, they are not able to back up what they are all about. I have started a nonprofit, and that's it. This is where you run into issues sometimes when you are trying to raise money for a nonprofit. It's tough. Just like with a for-profit business. In the beginning, you are doing it out of pocket. You are self-funding quite a bit. Hugh: You want to stop that though. What you are hitting around is that we need to be professionals at running the organization. Danna: Like a business. Hugh: A lot of cause-based charities, people have expertise or passion about the cause and zero ability to run a business. I encourage those people to get an admin or an executive director. What I have started suggesting that organizations do is create a position called a funds strategist. They look at your road map, your strategic plan, your solution map that says where you are going to be and how you are going to get there. Then we have targeted budget items for those one or two years out. Danna: This is where a cash flow statement comes in. A cash flow statement, when you think about it, is you are breaking down your revenue streams two years, three years. What you are doing is breaking it down on a monthly basis so that you know what your goals are to meet your expenses. Hugh: We don't do that. What we do sometimes is a cash flow analysis, which is the rearview mirror. What we need is the cash flow forecast, the headlights. We don't think about that a lot. We get this lump of money. We raised some money at an event. What you are talking about is we talk about when it's going to run out. When we are making presentations, we want to talk about use of funds, what the impact is going to be. We measure that. If you're good at it, and Russell talked about the value exchange, we are going to attract more money if we are really good at attracting the first money. There is a skill in learning how to make the presentations and attract the money. We don't give equal time to that. It's like we build a car. We build this great thing, and we fill the seats with our team members, but we don't learn to drive the car and we haven't put the gas in it, which is the money. Danna: The other thing to keep in mind, especially on the cash flow side, is the reason we deal with it is a lot of nonprofits depend on donors. They get donor promises. Those promises don't come in right away. It's important to understand on a cash flow statement those donor promises are not going to pay the bills until those checks come in. That is where I talk about let's make it easy for them to donate as opposed to making a promise, and then we have to keep chasing them for the dollars. Let's make the process easier until we get those donation dollars or sponsorship dollars in. Hugh: When they do a pledge week at NPR, they say, “Give us your card, and you can do a recurring donation.” You will give every month. They go for the monthly recurring smaller donations rather than bigger lump sums. Danna: I think that's probably better in a way. You know what's coming in every single month. Hugh: It doesn't mean we ignore them. We may need to create the program you're talking about of staying in touch. A funds strategist will create funding programs to support the strategic plan, your targets and budgets for each state of your development, and then your cash flow statement projects how long the money that you raise is going to last. You will run dry if you don't have that recurring revenue. Sponsors are unique. We will do a whole show on sponsors here soon. It's a very unique pathway. You talked about multiple streams of revenue. There are eight, not counting real estate. Donors and sponsors are right at the top. Those are dependable, regular. Typically, grants are for special purposes. If you do a good job with a sponsor, you have asked what they want, and you create results for them, then there is no reason for them to stop. This service piece that you are talking about is actually essential for regular recurring revenue, isn't it? Danna: When you think about the number of nonprofits fighting for the same sponsors, it's not as if they don't have enough organizations wanting their sponsorship dollars. How are you going to keep yourself at top of mind as far as these sponsors are concerned? This is where meeting their expectations and understanding that is how you are going to keep them with you. They are going to turn around and convince others to come in as sponsors. That is what the sponsorship service, the relationship you are developing, that is what the end goal is: keep them in the pipeline and have them turn into your own advocates on the back end to create more sponsors for you. Hugh: That is so well-put. Do you have any questions or comments for Danna, Russell? Russell: One of the things that I would ask or that people talk about in the question I get—I don't always have a good answer for it. Very new nonprofits, what is the best way for them to approach obtaining sponsorship? On what scale should they aim for? Hugh: Told you he had the hard questions. Danna: I have dealt with a few very early nonprofits as far as that is concerned. Oh goodness. What is the best approach? Relationships by far. You have to have those relationships. You can't just go in and say, “Look, I have started a nonprofit. This is it. Are you willing to donate or sponsor me?” Those relationships are critical. The other thing is really look at what your needs are from the sponsors. Match up those sponsors first before you approach them. Start to develop those relationships. If you need media, printing, marketing, all of that, look at what your needs are because if you are very early-on and you try going to an Amazon, chances are you won't get it. Go with your local companies. Go with the people that network with you. Go out there and network. Do some events, some free events, like walk-a-thons or something to that effect where you can get people involved and bring donations in that way. Through that, then the sponsors are going to be more apt to donate some dollars because they are branding themselves. Hugh: Wow. That is a lot of good stuff, Danna. You have hit on some really important topics today. Really rich content. What do you want to leave people with? A tip, a thought, a challenge? What do you want to leave people with? Danna: The biggest challenge I want to leave people with is one of the biggest challenges I fight all the time with my clients: think before you jump. Think before you jump. Think about the process. Think about the sequence. Think about the strategy behind what you are doing before you jump. When you are dealing with limited dollars, you don't have dollars to waste. You want to make sure that those dollars go as far and as efficiently as you can make them go. The only way you will do that is to think about what you are spending those dollars on. Hugh: Very sage advice. Russell, thanks for joining us. Danna, thank you for the wonderful, useful content today. Danna: You're welcome. Thank you. Nice talking to you again, Russell. Russell: Always a pleasure. Keep on keepin' on. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Interview with Steve Durie Hugh Ballou: Greetings, it's Hugh Ballou. Another episode of The Nonprofit Exchange live, it's Hugh Ballou and Russell Dennis. Russell, how are you doing today out there in beautiful Colorado? Russell Dennis: After a snowfall last night, the sun has come back out. Everything is beautiful out here in Colorado. Hugh: Love it. People on the podcast can't see it, but you've got a shiny head. Is that part of the sign, or is that just the light over your head? Russell: All of this glare helps keep the focus off of the shadow here with all of the gray hair in it, so there is a method to my madness shining the light here. Hugh: I see that. Russell, the real person. We have a guest who is also a resident of Colorado, but he is a new resident of Florida. We are going to hear from him in just a minute. Today's topic is protecting your culture by doing effective vetting of the people you're bringing in, be it volunteers or paid staff. Steve Durie, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Steve Durie: Thank you, Hugh. It's good to be here. Hugh: So good to have you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, some background, and how did you arrive at what you're doing now? Why is it important to you? Steve: I have been doing this for 15 years. Where it started was when I was actually volunteering in youth organizations with my kids. My question was: Aren't you going to run a background check on me? They're like, No, we don't do that. We trust everyone. Previous to that, I had a lot of database experience in a consulting company in consulting on justice projects, that is, how to share criminal data. I took that knowledge about sharing criminal data and my passion for keeping my own kids safe and know that I was going to be working as a volunteer and turned it into a business 15 years ago. My kids are a little older now, and my wife Laura and I have a special needs son. He is an adult; he is 31. But he is also extremely vulnerable and needs protection. He doesn't live at home anymore. And that is a constant worry about Tommy, whether the people who are working alongside him are safe. It does transcend not just our children in their youth, but into any vulnerable population. That is a broad brushstroke is anybody who is vulnerable, and we can look at each group individually as to how to best screen someone and check them out if we are working with children, youth, or vulnerable adults, or elderly, or single people. There are a lot of different. Vulnerable populations who may need our work. Hugh: Absolutely. It's really good to know about people. In the work that Russell and I do through SynerVision, we help people build their strategy out. Part of that is competencies. We have created a new paradigm that replaces the position description, and the first of four colors is the competency. When you look at somebody's competency, you also want to do a background check so that you can validate what is on their resume, that they actually do that. Are there some hidden things in there? Finding out about the people. What is their performance going to be? Role and responsibility? If it's financial, there is another level of compliance. I used to live in a town of 30,000, and one year, there were two nonprofits that had treasurers make away with $750,000, trusted friends and community members. They didn't do an adequate background check or have safeguards in place. The third color is the culture fit. If somebody has a history of conflict or abuse, you don't really want them spoiling your culture. The fourth color is expectations, but the vetting the person, competency, not only are they clean, but they also fit the culture. There are lots of reasons in any kind of enterprise to do the background check. I think it's especially important when we are dealing with people who are compromised, like your son, like children, like older adults. There are lots of opportunities for people to abuse the system. You have worked with nonprofits so far, have you? Steve: Our focus of the company SecureSearch is with the nonprofit community. It's been over 15 years; we have served over 10,000 nonprofits as their partner for screening their staff, their volunteers, and their board of directors. We are a full-service company. We can do anything, from resume verification to child awareness for those who work with children. Hugh: Resume verification. I heard a guy one time, and his resume said he went to Yale and studied finance. I found out later he didn't graduate. People make up things on their resume. That's a new piece of data. Are nonprofits any more vulnerable than for-profits? Is there an attitude of difference there? You told a story about you being a volunteer, and you ask about the background check. They said we trust people. Do you find that to be more common than not? Steve: I find that to be pretty common in the nonprofit culture where they are really hungry for people to serve and to help. With that, sometimes they actually push aside the fact that these people may have a nefarious past. They are looking to quickly onboard them, get them into a position. They are happy to have a warm body. They are happy to have the skillset the individual brings to the table. Referred by a close friend or family member, so they are not even thinking about screening them, especially if they are not working directly with a child. When they are working with a child, it's more in our consciousness that we should put the best people with these kids to keep in faith. But what about people who are just working alongside one another? The workplace violence conflict. We need to focus on making all of our communities and all of the workplaces as safe as possible. It's the responsibility of the organization to do so. But nonprofits, because of their compromised budgets in some cases, they are spending their money elsewhere to maybe grow their projects and they are not really thinking about the people, if they are safe in the environment they are working in. In corporate America, it is common, and in the nonprofit arena, it is not as common. We are here as a voice to raise the awareness that everybody should be doing this, whether you have one employee or thousands. Hugh: You and I met at a conference last week, CEO Space. Had I met you—I came in late in the week because I had conflicts—and said, “Hey Steve, what is it that you do?” and you say, “I do background searches,” and I say, “I have a nonprofit. Why is it important for me to do that?” How would you respond to me? Steve: As a nonprofit? Hugh: If I say, “I have a nonprofit. Why is it important for me to do that?” Steve: You touched on this. It's about reducing risk and reducing liability. Liability is big. It all ties into the overall image in the community they're serving. It's protecting their image. It doesn't have to be their first priority. The first priority is protecting those who are part of their organization. You have to look at the entire hierarchy of your staff from your board of directors down to your volunteers. Oftentimes, there are people in between the upper board and the volunteers who are just coming on who get missed. They didn't think it was important to screen them. Really it's about lowering your liability and lowering your risk, or at least managing your risk. You can't be a risk-free organization; that doesn't exist. It's about, how do you take steps and utilize your budget dollars to minimize your risk as much as you possibly can? Hugh: Russell, you and I interface with a lot of nonprofit leaders and boards. I find there is a lot of boards that aren't up to speed on how to be the board. They think about being in charge of governance sometimes. They sometimes realize they are responsible for financial oversight. I don't think boards realize they have a liability whatever happens. Do you find, Russell, in your work that boards are blind to this element as well? Russell: I have talked to people who really don't have a core grasp of the notion of having liability insurance for the board of directors officers as they are putting these things together. They don't understand how critical that is and what risks are involved. A large part of the problem is people don't know what they don't know. Nonprofit leaders, these are people centered in the idea of making the world a better place and service to others. They are more prone to take people at their word as opposed to doing any sort of digging. They may not think there is a big risk associated with bringing a person on. It's nice to be able to take people at their word, but it depends on what kind of work you're doing, who you're serving, the assets of your organization you're protecting. It never occurs to people there may be a scurvy elephant roaming around the zoo. You have to have a look at who you're dealing with. People aren't always who they say they are. That is just the reality of it. It's important to look at these things up front because if you don't have a person who is not in integrity in there in the first place, you don't have to figure out how to get rid of them later on when you could have problems. The reputation of your organization could be at stake. You just have these horror stories. There was a veterans' organization a few years ago that saw their reputation fall apart because the CEO was playing games with the books. Always you have to think in terms of protecting yourself with your regulations, with internal controls, with the way money and other assets are handled. More important, how you deal with the people you serve. You can really get in a lot of trouble easily and quickly without in the least bit intending to. Hugh: Steve, did that shake loose any thoughts for you? Steve: Yeah, it actually did. I do believe that nonprofits feel that the people they bring in have the heart for what they do. If they have a heart for what they do, then they are probably good people. I really think that is a mistake a lot of them make. Taking that assumption because they say they believe in what you believe in, they have the passion for what you have a passion for, that doesn't mean they have the same background you have. A lot of people are trying to use their influence they currently have in the community, it could be a leader in the community, to find their way into a vulnerable group. That is the MO of a pedophile is to build up trust in everybody around them, including building themselves up to be leaders in the community so that everybody seems to trust them, and that is when they can get to the vulnerable children and build relationships without anybody thinking twice about it. Screening is not going to catch everybody, only if they have been arrested or convicted of something in the past. It's only one part of the puzzle for keeping not only your organization safe, but those that you serve. It goes much more beyond the background check. I don't think anyone can feel that they have that warm fuzzy feeling now that I have implemented background checks. I'm good, I got a green check mark for that person, I can just let them go. That is a wrong approach. You really need to have a conscious community around that everybody is the eyes and ears of the organization. We all have to keep our eyes on who we're working alongside. If they are doing something we believe is incorrect or harmful to the organization or to those who serve, to make sure we all feel empowered to report those things, especially for physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, whatever you might see. It's up to us to report it. Hugh: There is another realm that Russell talked about with having your policies and procedures up to date. You just pointed out, we have to pay attention. That is part of our responsibility as a leader to see what is in front of us. I never realized people who are—and it makes sense if you talk about it—a pedophile positions themselves in a place of trust and then continues to validate that, so they throw people off guard. No, it couldn't possibly be true. I have known people in that position before, and they were busted. Eventually you got caught. How long does it take and how many people do you hurt in the process? At least do your background check, which also helps relieve your liability. I'm sure some of the companies that Russell talked about that issue board insurance require a background check so they have less liability. I didn't warn you: When Russell comes in, he asks you the hard questions. I'll ask you easier ones first while he formulates the hard ones. Give us an example where people were trusting, and it really created damage. Then you came in and maybe you helped them get a process in place to prevent it in the future. Without naming names, what are the kinds of things that people should be alert to?   Steve: There are so many stories. Some have been recently in the news that everybody is aware of. One is USA Gymnastics with Dr. Nassau. Building trust, not only from the organization, but with the parents of these young children in the gymnastics program, and then going on to abuse them for years without ever getting caught. Sandusky at Penn State, same thing. He was able to testify with his peers that showering with young boys was just about cleanliness. They are always going to try to lie about who they are and have somebody believe it. They are masters at it. They never take any responsibility for their actions. It's that narcissistic behavior on the pedophile side. Another story has nothing to do with a criminal record. This was a nonprofit organization that had drivers and they were doing deliveries. One of the individuals when we met with them, and we were on site for this one, he was in the state of Colorado, but he had a Tennessee drivers' license. He said he had been here for four years. I asked him why didn't he have a Colorado license. He said that he lost his license in Colorado from too many speeding tickets, so he had to go to my parent's house in Tennessee to get a license. He is volunteering for an organization that drives one of their vehicles. People can get around from their past and get away from their past, whether it's criminal behavior or not. It could be resume fudging. That happens more than you know, especially for certain positions, for executive director positions, finance positions, COO type positions, where they can say they have a Master's degree in finance. They really just have a Bachelor's, or they never finished college. They put it on their resume for years, and nobody questioned it. There are stories where the CEO of RadioShack, and RadioShack is falling from grace, but the CEO never had his Master's degree in business, never had his MBA. It was a reporter who figured it out and started reporting on it. Then he resigned or got let go. Same thing with the president of the business school of Harvard. She had miscommunicated on her resume that she had a Ph. D, and she never did. Organizations that we all know about and have heard about, down to around the corner with businesses in your neighborhood or possibly even your organization. It's important to vet the higher-end positions in your organization. It's not just about the volunteers. I can go on forever about why it's important for the volunteers, but anybody working in your office, making sure you are looking at embezzlement or money laundering or anything that deals with your budget, your finances, your books, make sure those are always intact and that you are bringing on the best people. Background checks don't always catch everybody. They may never have been arrested before. I am going to go back to what Hugh was talking about with the pedophile. Eventually they get caught. That's not true. They never get caught, and they die with their secrets. The average pedophile molests 137 children in their lifetime without ever getting arrested for it. That is where the training is more important than the background check and being aware and keeping their eyes open. Hugh: Wow. I guess there is some people who will be polite and they think it's not polite to do a background check. Have you come across that? How do you respond to that? Steve: For the last 15 years, we have dealt with that. I don't know exactly where that really stems from other than they feel like it's unkind to ask someone to sign a consent form to do a background check. They are giving of their time, and I feel like I am invading their privacy if I ask them for this information. But you have to think about your organization and its reputation and why you have that organization set up in the first place. Then you have to make sure you bring on the best people. You just need to frame it differently: we are a culture of safety instead of just being haphazard about who we bring on. I think that everybody who comes on board would feel more confident with the person sitting next to them, with the person they are running an errand with to Office Depot if they are going in the same vehicle together. You will have a higher level of confidence that the organization did the right thing before you came. Hugh: Where is the person who said, “Oh, I don't want to be impolite to them,” so they back down from not realizing they are being impolite to everyone else in the culture. I don't want to make trouble, but if they don't do that, they will make trouble for everybody else. What about the person who says, “I don't have time for that?” That sounds like too much trouble. Steve: The one issue with nonprofits is wearing so many hats and being so busy. I think that sometimes the background check seems like a daunting task, especially if they have never done them. First, I have to vet a company. I don't know where to go to trust somebody. I don't want to do all the paperwork. I have enough things going on. I don't even understand background checks. How am I going to do this? I don't have a Human Resources background, nor do I have a HR director on staff. That is where SecureSearch makes it a little unique. We can come in understanding that that is one of your pain points on not having enough people to do all of the tasks you have to do. We made everything paperless. Not only are the consent forms, but also the entire process of signing up is paperless. Everything is the click of a button. The applicants, whether they be your board of directors, staff, or volunteers, they do all of the data entry. All you're doing is sending an email invitation. Simple as that. Hugh: Wow. If I came to you and said I have ten volunteers and I need to take them through a background check, then you'd give me a consent form for them to sign, with permission to do that. Steve: The way you phrased that is interesting, that you give them a consent form. It's actually against the law for us to provide a template consent form. We provide samples. All consent forms are the organization's form. It's not my form. We provide a sample, but it is really up to each organization to go through legal counsel and make sure everything is in there that needs to be in there and that it meets their federal and state laws. We try to do our best with our samples to make sure they are good, but you should only use that as a framework. Hugh: Before you can do the background check, I have to have them sign a form though. Steve: Yes. That form can be in paper, or it can be through our paperless volunteer and applicant portal that is called Search My Background that we have. If everything is in the portal electronically, and they sign a signature box either with their finger on a mobile device or the mouse of their computer. That signature will map to all the documents in the system so that everything is signed and everything is provided to the applicant. Hugh: Where I was headed with that, and I thank you for the clarification on the language, where I was headed with that is I would say I have my ten volunteers and I need to run them through the process. Would you suggest to me that I do it on myself as well? Steve: Well, somebody should run one on you. But if you want to at least have something in the “file,” whether it be a digital file or a file folder in a lockable filing cabinet, having your own in there is a good idea, especially to report to the board that if you are the executive director, it started with you. Sometimes you can be surprised on what you might see on your own. We had an executive director in Minnesota who had a small nonprofit. I think it was five or ten volunteers based on what he told me over the phone. This was quite a few years ago. When I was small enough and able to see the background checks coming in on a regular basis, I pulled it open and said, “Oh, I talked to that gentleman on the phone.” He signed up and ran his background check; he had three pages of felonies on his own. He never ran another background check with us. I think he was curious as to if his own background check would come up and expose him as a customer. There was nothing I could do to share it with the greater group of that organization. There is a lot of risk out there. It can start with that executive director. I don't think the executive director should be the one running the background check; it should be pushed by the board that the executive director have a background check. Hugh: Absolutely. Nobody should be exempt from it. Everybody should go through it. The founder, the executive director. Steve: Everybody. Hugh: Great. We are almost halfway through this interview. Russell, I'm sure that you have formulated a great question for our guest. Russell: As I was saying earlier, a lot of people don't know what they don't know. I think it starts with going from a place of what do I know, what have I been told, what don't I know, and where did the information I get come from? How do I know what I know? I think my first question would be all quality information. How can you get quality information to make sure that what you're hearing can be verified? Steve: That is a really good question. There are a lot of background screening companies in the U.S, thousands really. Everybody approaches business differently. Some are very small, that concept of working out of your garage, and they might not have a website. They might be in it just for the profit. There are lots of different data points to put together a good background check. The problem I see with the nonprofit side is they are learning on these database products to be the be-all end-all product because it's fast and it's inexpensive. They think because somebody might be calling it a national search that it truly is. But it isn't. I like to think of the database searches as a net. If you can picture the map of the United States and now you're casting this net across the United States, what is the net made up of? Holes strung together is the way I'd like to put it. I want you to remember that while it might be national—we call it multi-state—there are going to be holes. In some areas of this net there will be tears and huge holes versus tightly knit holes in other areas. You have this product that a lot of the nonprofits like to order because they think it's national, they think it's an easy, inexpensive way to launch into the background checks, and they don't realize the risks that are still going to be there. They are not conducting what we call a best-in-class background check. Nonprofits have to be careful. To answer your question about data, we take three different aggregation data points from the database and merge them together, eliminating the duplicate points. Other companies will buy data from these aggregate groups of data, and they will hang it on their own internal servers and ping against that data for months before they refresh it. That's how you get the $2 background checks for some of these large nonprofits. I'm not saying everybody does it, but in order to reduce the cost to meet what an expectation might be for a nonprofit, which is cheap, these organizations are going to give you bad and old data. We refresh our data every week, in some cases like the sex offender registries, for some every two weeks. But the oldest refresh we have is 30 days for our entire database. Again, it's a merge of three different data points coming together. We didn't get into this business primarily to make a profit; we got into this business to protect those who need to be protected. Russell: That's it. It's setting that intention right up front. When you talk to people, you have to set an intention up front about what it is you're doing. When you talk to people who might be new that we need to help, but understand we are going to be looking into some things, asking you questions for the sake of transparency, and direct about it. Who, what, when, where, why, and how? We keep our questions as open in that way as we can so that we get some meaningful information. I think that people who have things to hide may balk a little bit at this directness. Somebody is fidgeting, and they are talking about how much time this is taking, why you need to know that. In my head, that will be a red flag. What say you? Steve: A hidden benefit of the background check implementation is the bad ones kind of leave in the guise of night. They don't come back tomorrow. You actually said, “Hey, we take it seriously, we are going to have a consent form for you to sign. We will call your references. We will check in on who you say you are.” That's another thing, references. If you are not calling references, whether you outsource it to an organization, I recommend doing it internally so you can hear the nuance of the phone, the pregnant pauses of someone being asked, “Is this somebody you would bring back into your organization if you could?” and they go, “Hmm, well, I don't know about that.” If you outsource that, it's hard for somebody to put that into words on a report. I recommend if you have the time to do it yourself. If you have the money, you can outsource it. References are just as important as the background check. The background checks of course can be criminal. They can also verify your resume, education, employment. It's not always just looking at their criminal records, but making sure they are who they say they are. Hugh: While you are on that track, what kinds of background checks are there? Go over that again. Steve: There are lots of different types of background checks. We want to get nonprofit organizations to stop thinking about using the database just for looking for a criminal or a sex offender. Because of the analogy I used with the net with all the larger holes and tears, you need to look at each applicant holistically. Instead of where your organization is serving or based and the geography and how that might look in a database search, you need to look at the applicant. John could be a resident of one place for his whole life, and Mary has lived in seven different places in seven years. Mary, you are going to have to do more on because there are possibilities that the database has missed where Mary lives, they weren't up to date, and you are going to add a county courthouse search or a statewide repository search if it exists, like it does in Colorado. Other states have that, too. You are going to need to start with a foundation and then lay additional due diligence on top of that to get a good profile for each applicant instead of one size fits all. The criminal side, you break out into two different things. We have state and local crimes that you find in a database. You have the sex offender crimes that are in the sex offender registry. Then you will have crimes against the federal government or federal-related crimes. A lot of people think of these as the white-collar crimes, the Bernie Madoffs or the Martha Stewart crime where she got involved in the stocks. Yes, but inter-state kidnapping is also a federal crime. Money laundering and profiteering is a federal crime. Any building on federal lands. A lot of organizations and companies lately neglect ordering a federal criminal search. That can come back to bite them if they don't search it. There are a lot of other things, too. Motor vehicle searches, I mentioned. Credit reports we can do. You can do the education verification. International criminal and credit. Motor vehicles. We have 165 different services available to any organization, and most organizations look at about five. Russell:What are some of the training opportunities? Part of the challenge is training nonprofit leaders or other people about what the benefits are and the dangers of neglecting to do due diligence. In other words, what are the things that you're doing to assist people to understand the value of it so that they actually have this awareness? It's one thing to bring somebody in. Somebody could slide under the radar after you have done your search. Maybe something changes. People need to have an idea of what sort of things they need to look out for to make sure that everything is good. What training do you folks give nonprofits an opportunity to take advantage of so that they have a better sense of when they may need some help digging into something? Steve: We actually have a very specific training program that I actually founded. It's called Safeguard from Abuse. With a focus on the vulnerable populations that a lot of nonprofits focus their energy into those communities, it is a 75-minute online and also on a DVD training program with a certificate of understanding for those that pass the test on all of the different types of abuse, not just the sexual abuse, but neglect, physical, and emotional abuse, diving deep into what they are, diving deep into how to recognize when a child is being abused. So many organizations have that fear of having a sexual predator in their midst, so we do focus more time and attention in their personality traits, their grooming behaviors, understanding the personality of that pedophile. The most important thing is raising the awareness overall through the training, but empowering each person who goes through the video to be a mandated reporter and to understand that they can't help if they put their head in the sand. They have to be empowered to report, and they have to understand how to do so is very important. The awareness training is important. My example that I like to use is Russell, you want to buy a new car. You have a brand of car in mind, and you're getting in that car and heading down the road. All of a sudden, you start to see that car everywhere. It's now in your awareness. It's always been there, just like the characteristics of people who harm kids. They're still doing it in front of us; we're just not aware of it. We didn't raise our awareness level high enough to see what's always been there but invisible to the eye. It's really what we focus on is what we see. What we focus on we become as well. We want to make sure that we can train enough people to end child abuse, or at least if we can save one child, it's all worth it. Russell: Every time you buy a new car, everybody buys the same make, model, and color that very same day. I was thinking about all of these things. There are people who are listening to this, and they may be leaning back in their chairs thinking, No, I never did any of this stuff up front. Now I have 60 people. How do I know that I don't have somebody like this in my midst right now? Is there some type of organizational audit or assessment that you can do? Steve: We can definitely help. What you're saying is I gotta go retro. I have to go back to day one, and anybody who is still with me, screen them. That seems like an invasion maybe, or a daunting task, or maybe you're just thinking, I'll start with the next person. Now you will set yourself up for some difficulties being fair and equitable. If it's just Susan who just walked in the door but you did not go back five years ago and do this, once you implement the strategy, you have to implement it at any level and go back and do everybody. Starting top down is a good approach. Start at the top, and push down through the hierarchy of individuals in your organization. It's about resetting the reason for why you're doing it. You are resetting the fact that you have this new program that you're implementing. Our insurance company wants us to do it. Most insurance companies want you to do it anyway. If you have to put it on something else, you can just say it's a new requirement. It could be just your organization's requirement. Once it's a new requirement, it's a requirement. Everybody has to do it. Russell: Having everybody do it ensures that you don't have somebody out there who wants to take you to court saying they're being singled out because I'm a woman or I'm black or I'm over 50, or just anything they can pull out to say why it doesn't apply. We talked about that comfort level that people have. I don't want to offend or put anybody out. How do you help people who decide to do something like that do it in the face of the apprehension that they may have and the fear of offending somebody, implementing it seamlessly? What are some of the things you do to help people through that? Steve: That's a good question. We help organizations put together a background screening policy. It's all about policies. Sometimes you might have a policy- With those who work with kids, you might have a child protection policy, for example. But even in that child protection policy, they don't talk about background checks. So we need to weave in another layer of policy, and that is who do we screen, why do we screen them, how often do we screen them, and what do we order? Really it comes down to being comfortable enough with your organization and communicating that you do have policies. It's part of your mission and vision, wherever it is that it fits in, to make it that important. You can make it unimportant and be at risk and have everyone at risk, or you can make it important and be an advocate for safety and make your organization. It's all about preserving that organization. Amp up your image; it will help you and the community. Hugh: Both of you are talking about people not knowing what they don't know. There is a side that people are so close to it, you're so involved in it, that you're so blind to it because you are focusing on the day-to-day and the relationships. You're blind to all of the liabilities. Having someone like you that is skilled to discuss policy procedure with I think is really a high benefit. Is that part of your service that you offer? Steve: We offer that at no charge. Phone call conversations, any time someone wants to talk to me. It's very individual. Each organization is very individual, and I can't just say, Here is a template. We like to discuss what your organization looks like, the different roles and responsibilities you might have, the silos you may have, the offshoots of your organization you may have, and drill down. Like I mentioned, it's not a one-size-fits-all. Based on roles and responsibilities, you will be ordering different types of services. You may order motor vehicle for one, you may need to look at a credit report for one, but it won't be for all. We want to make sure that you understand that as an organization, what's available first of all, why you should order it, and then implement it. Now it's part of your policy manual, and now it can be handed off if you were to leave the organization. If you are in charge of this role, and now you are leaving or retiring to go do something else, you can now hand it off to someone else and they won't have to reinvent the wheel. It's important to do it on the front end, but we'll help. Hugh: Your link for people to find you is SecureSearch.com? Steve: It's actually not. I wish I had that. It's SecureSearchPro.com. Hugh: That's better. Steve: We have SafeguardfromAbuse.com. Hugh: You have been talking about databases, and people can do a database search. Say more about that for people who don't know what you mean by “database.” I think of a database as where I keep my CRM, where I keep my contacts. Say more about that and why it doesn't really cut the mustard. Steve: Okay. A lot of people think that there is one central place to go to do a background check in the United States. Just go to the FBI. They think there is something in some place to go. That is a fallacy. We are a disparate country. Our systems do not communicate with each other. What you have in Colorado doesn't communicate with what's in Virginia with what's in Florida, even though we think that's the case. Another fallacy is that a social security number is all you need to find a criminal record. We don't find any criminal records using a social security number. That's a myth. We use the social security number to find out what the person might be: what names they have used, what addresses they may have used, information sources. The databases, because we have this disparate system where counties don't communicate with states sometimes and counties don't even communicate with each other, all of these groups work in silos. Their information or their data is also stuck in that silo. You have to search that silo to find that information. In some cases, these silos of information raise their hands and say they will share. There are companies called data aggregators to say, I will pull from this county, I will pull from that county, and this department of corrections wants to give me that information. They compile it all together. They go out to my industry and say, “Do you want to buy my information?” I was talking about having three of these aggregators that I purchase information from and weave it all together because they will miss some in one and miss some in another and I am hoping I can fill in some of the gaps. This is not 100%. Again, it's that net with holes. It's as good as it gets. We search over a billion records, but there are so many holes and gaps in this data. That is where the database comes in; it's a base of data. There will be holes that you can't rely on as your only search. We can consult on the best approach. The best approach is you have to look at three different things. First, your due diligence, why you do what you do, why you want to screen in the first place. Do you want to protect the vulnerable? Is it because your insurance company made you do it? I don't care what it is. We have to understand what the impetus of your diligence is. Then we need to look at your organizational budget and say what budget dollars do you have to work with. Do you need to go find more budget dollars from another bucket in order to cover something like this? You want to implement it as soon as possible. The third is your comfort for risk, or your risk tolerance. That is already comfortable with your organization name being in a newspaper because you didn't do a background check, and now you brought in a pedophile into your organization. Or does that make you cringe and keep you awake at night? What does your legal counsel say? What does your insurance company say? We need to bring those three things together and create a unique, sustainable program for your organization. That may be very different from the organization I talk to tomorrow. That's okay. It's unique to you and sustainable and something you're comfortable with and can move forward with in your organization. A long answer for a simple question. Hugh: It's a complex question, a complex situation. I have met people who think they can just Google somebody's name and find out all kinds of things. What's the fallacy in that strategy? Steve: Did you have consent to do it, first of all? Every applicant has their legal rights. They have to provide you consent to really do a background check on them, especially if you want to use it. If you just want to be the armchair neighbor and check in on a neighbor, you have the legal right to do so. If you are going to bring this individual on board and have them fill out paperwork to be a volunteer or member of the staff, you have to get their consent. You can't just go to Google. The data out there is only as good as the data out there. If you're not buying it and it's free, there is a reason it's free. If you're spending $59.99 to get the rest of the report, they gave you a little bit, and the rest of it is behind the scenes, that is just database information, and that is way more than you ever need to pay. You need to do a database search for only $15. It's something you need, and something you need to build on, so you want to make sure you make it affordable on the database side so you can grow it and add the county courthouse searches as necessary. Russell: There are some things out there that are robust. I have probably used some of the things as a revenue agent for IRS. It's not off the shelf, and it's not cheap by any means, but it's good stuff. It's important to do that. You get what you pay for. A lot of these databases that you describe pop up if you do an online directory search for the Yellow Pages, or something like that. These things get offered to you all the time. Steve: It's the free data available to everyone that they compile. Not everything is going to be in there as I mentioned. It will be fraught with holes. They make it look good. They put a shiny website together, and you see moving parts. It's like they are searching as deep as they can go, and I will get every tidbit of information I need in seconds on one of these companies. You have to be careful with what you do. Everything needs to be validated at the local level. Anything from the database, any red flag, has to be validated at the court or the point of origin of the information to be accurate; otherwise, you are not supposed to see it anyway. That is why you want to work with a consumer reporting agency. SecureSearch is a consumer reporting agency. We are a member of concern consuming reporter agency, making sure we do it the right way and making sure we do validate everything at the local level before you as the customer gets to see that information. Hugh: We are coming to the last part of our interview, Steve. SecureSearchPro.com is where people can find out more. What is the differentiator? What makes this business different? You mentioned there are lots of others out there. Why are you different from them? Steve: That's a good question. The first thing is the information we have to share with you is through years of experience. We have veterans in the industry on staff who run our customer service department, who run our operations, and who run the executive office. That's number one, lots of experience. Two is we have a heart for the nonprofit sector because we understand you are wearing many hats. You don't have time, and you may not have the skillsets. You can feel comfortable with us. We are going to answer the phone. We will talk to you. You won't be alone in this process. We will be there to answer any questions you may have throughout the process, and you will have someone you can work with, whether it be me, you can always work with me directly, or anyone on my staff. We also don't have a single salesperson on staff, so you will never be “sold” anything. We only have consultants, so we will be asking you questions and making you recommendations for best practices. You won't hear from us five million times; we won't pound you until you buy. We wait to hear from you again if you'd like to do this with us. That is what makes us different. We have a heart for the nonprofit, the integrity of our data we are purchasing, and the integrity of the system we have and the compliance of our system and processes is what set us apart. Hugh: That's strong. It sounds like this service is incredibly expensive, thousands of dollars, to do a background check. Is that true? Steve: No, that's actually very far from true. Depends on the organization you're working with. Our pricing model is geared toward the nonprofit sector, so we are extremely affordable. We actually have scalable pricing for those who have high volume discount programs. A background check, I would say that a good budget, if you want to do it right, for the criminal and sex offender and fill in all the gaps, is budget for $50 a person. It doesn't mean it will always cost $50 a person; it may cost $15 for some, $22 for another, or $85 for another. It could be all over the board. But I would budget that to make sure you have enough allocated funds for a good solid program. A lot of people are going to ask if they need to do background checks through the fingerprint process, too. No, you don't. You can get good information that is disposition-based. Disposition is what happened in court, information from a secure search without ever having to do fingerprints. If you are getting government funding or state funding, they may make it mandatory, so you have to do it. But we can still make sure that the fingerprint arrest record—and that's all it is, an arrest information source with biometrics, and not everybody gets fingerprinted when they get arrested—that the courts dismissed it or said it was a guilty verdict and enhance the arrest record database you search. Hugh: Good. Thank you for that complete answer. This has been a very informative interview, and I'm sitting here thinking about all the organizations that I know about that have fallen short. We are going to make sure we will put a recommendation in our work that they do this early on. I think it's that important. As we are tying up this really good interview—Steve, thank you for the time today. It's been exceptional—what impression, what challenge, what thought do you want to leave in people's minds? Steve: I guess my question is: What image do you have of your own organization? How do you look at your own organization? Do your process and your people align with it? If you are worried about that and you want to lower your risk and your liabilities as an organization and maintain the image you want to have of your own organization, it doesn't cost a lot of money, it doesn't take a lot of time, you don't have to learn how to do it. We do everything for you. Just reach out to us. There is no charge to sign up or for a free consultation. Talk to one of our advocates. We're here to help; we're not here to sell. We hope to hear from you. It's something you should definitely take a look at. If you're doing the background checks now, we can talk about if you are doing them the right way. If you're not doing them, we can help you along the path. Hugh: Russell, thanks again for being here and being by my side. Steve, thank you for a wonderful interview. Thanks everyone for listening. Steve: Thank you very much. Learn more about your ad choices. 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Listen as “The Goat Farmer” drops some powerful Q & A during this episode of Marketing Secrets. On this special episode Russell is interviewed by Dana Derricks for Decade in a Day. Here are some of the fun and informative questions you will get to hear the answers to: What would be the one thing Russell would suggest anybody starting out in business should focus on? What’s Russell’s biggest secret to building funnels? What Russell wishes he would have done differently? And what Russell’s team relieves him from? So listen here for the answers to these questions and many more from Dana Derricks. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome to Marketing Secrets podcast. I’m so excited to have you here. Today I’m going to share with you a behind the scenes interview with my man, Mr. Dana Derricks. Hey everyone, welcome back to Marketing Secrets. If you have not yet subscribed, if you are on iTunes, please subscribe and leave us a comment. If you are watching this one YouTube, please click on our YouTube channel and subscribe so you keep getting amazing videos like this. Right now, what I want to share with you guys is behind the scenes of an interview that happened earlier last week. Dana Derricks is in my inner circle program, he just started year number two and when someone joins my inner circle, or they re-up after a year, I let them be part of what we call Decade in a Day. Decade in a Day is basically where I take a decade of my life experiences, my business experiences and jam it into a day for that person. Basically I do this about once a month with my inner circle members. And it was really funny because this time, Dana showed up and instead of just asking me a bunch of, or instead of doing a normal consult back and forth, he just came back and said, “Hey I have a whole list of questions I want for you.” Some were really good questions, some were off the wall, there were all sorts of place, it was hilarious. But there was some really powerful, strong things that came out of the interview and I thought between the humor and the gold, I thought it would be awesome to share with you. So I asked Dana if he’d be willing to let me share this with you guys. And luckily for me and for you and for everybody, he said yes. So I want to take you guys behind the scenes of a Decade in a Day call with Dana Derricks. Like I said, for those who don’t know Dana yet, you will appreciate and love his humor. He is a goat farmer, he’s speaking at Funnel Hacking Live, and some of these questions are amazing. With that said, we’re going to jump over to the interview and have some fun. What’s up Dana? Dana: Yo! What’s up? Russell: How’s it going man? Dana: Good, good. How are you guys doing? Russell: Amazing. (Other people greeting and cheering.) Dana: Oh this is going to be great. Russell: This better be great. Dana: Yeah, no pressure, right. Russell: We were betting before we turned it live, we’re like, “Is he gonna have any goats in the office with him?” Dana: Well, if it wasn’t so cold, I probably could have made that happen. Russell: That’s amazing. So obviously, I know you really well. Do you want to tell everyone who you are, who doesn’t know, and then we can have some fun? Dana: Yeah, we can do that. You’re in for a treat by the way. You’re going to like this, I’m glad I’m last. Whoever set that up, kudos to them. They deserve some treat, Mandy. Oh man. Hold your breath. Russell: Literal or no? Dana: You’ll be fine. You ready? Russell: I’m ready. Ready to rock and roll. Dana: Are we live? Russell: You’re live. Dana: I thought you had to press a button or something. Hey what’s up everybody? I’m a goat farmer, I don’t know technology very well. We’ve been live for 5 minutes, I’ve blown 5 minutes of my time. If you don’t know me, my name is Dana, I’m a goat farmer that Russell let into the inner circle. Also I write copy. And that’s about all. Russell: And books, a lot of books. Dana: Oh yeah. Russell: I got a few books from you this week and I was like, “Did you write both of these this week?” amazing. Dana: Kinda. Yeah did you get that package? Russell: Yeah, that was amazing. Thank you. Dana: Oh yeah, no, for sure. Russell: It was like, here’s the salad you can eat now and here’s what you can have after the BORT. Did you hear we changed it from BART to BORT? Dana: You did? Russell: A Big And Ripped Transformation and BORT is Big Or Ripped Transformation, so you get to choose. We’re calling Bart- Bort now. So feel free to do that, he’ll love it. Dana: Bort Miller, I love it. Yeah dude, the secret about sending stuff in the mail is it’s a lot harder to opt out of receiving mail in the mail, as opposed to like email. So that’s kind of the trick. Russell: During your presentation you should show that clip from Seinfeld where Kramer’s like, “I’m out.” And he breaks up his mailbox. Dana: That’s good. I like that. And you can tell when they do opt out because your stuff comes back to you. That’s awesome. Okay, so I guess I have something prepared. I don’t have slides or anything. I don’t really understand technology that well. So I have a list of just a bunch of questions I’m going to ask you, if that’s okay? Russell: Heck yeah. Dana: Alright cool. So there’s going to be three sections. The first is just business, the second is life, and the third is whatever questions we’re going to open it up to. You guys can ask me, feel free to pick my brain all you want. And then the audience can interject. I don’t know where they are, but if you guys can see anything that they’re saying, let’s do it. Cool? Russell: Let’s do it. Dana: Alright, I might, if you start talking too long, because I’ve got this spaced out just right, I’ll probably just cut you off, okay? Don’t worry about it, I’ll control the time. We’ll start off easy okay. What would you estimate to be the ROI on the spend of one goat over a twelve month period? Russell: For average humans or for Dana? Dana: You’d be surprised. I’d say average humans. Russell: For an average human it’s probably not very good. You can milk goats, right? Dana: You can. Russell: Can you eat goats? You probably don’t eat goats, do you? Dana: I wouldn’t advice it. Russell: You milk them, you shear them to get wool? Dana: No, they have weird fur. Russell: So just milk. Alright. Dana: Pretty much, milk and cheese. Russell: Milk and cheese. I bet you double the ROI. I bet you pay a thousand for a goat you get $2 grand back? Dana: That’s really close. That’s real good. Did John tell you that. Russell: No, that was off the top of my head. I had no idea. Dana: Nice. Good, good. You’re going to have goats soon. Russell: I have astro turf on my field now, they can’t… Dana: They’ll eat it, don’t worry. What would be the one thing you would suggest anybody starting out in business to focus on? Russell: Like the initial, when you’re first, first beginning? Dana: Yep. Russell: Probably focusing on developing yourself through serving other people, until you actually become amazing at whatever it is you want to sell in the future. Dana: So other people’s results instead of your own? Russell: Yeah. Go and serve people, get results, then that becomes the catalyst for everything else. Dana: Nice. What would be one thing you would suggest, anybody that’s already having success, to focus on? Russell: Is this going to become a book someday? This is like the chapters of a book. He’s pre-writing it, he’s making me write the book for him. Dana: Getting content one way or another. Russell: I can use this time however I want Russell. So people who are already having success, I would say the biggest thing is, a lot of times, especially with creators, we have success and then we get complacent for a while because I think initially when we start, a lot of times we are thinking about ourselves. And then you get to the point where it’s like all your needs are met. And most people sit complacent until they realize that this has nothing to do with them. Then you transition back to how do I serve people more? That’s when the next level of success happens. For me, business for me was selfish for a long time. I was trying to figure out how to make money, then my needs were met, and then more so, then it’s like, now what? It wasn’t until I really started focusing on the contribution side of it, then all the sudden, then it lights you back on fire again because you don’t….someone asked me yesterday, why don’t you sell for whatever? And I’m like, I don’t need money at this point in my life, this is about the contribution which is like, the exciting part. Money gets dumb. After you pay your house off, you’re like, well I don’t know what else to do. Dana: {Inaudible} Okay, awesome. Love it. What’s your biggest secret to building funnels? Russell: I don’t start building a funnel until I’ve found another funnel that I’m modeling, like a concept. So I’m always very clear of this is where we’re going. And number two I focus most of the effort or energy on the copy or the stories. Each page in a funnel is its own story that you’re telling, you’re crafting to get them to take the next action, and that’s where we focus. Anyone can do a funnel now with Clickfunnels. Woo hoo, I’ve got a funnel. It’s like understanding and mastering the story, even the short form story. I’ve got a headline and an opt in box, what’s the story I’m telling there? What’s the story on the landing page, and the upsell page? Basically taking the Perfect Webinar structure and breaking it down into, over a set of pages and orchestrating the whole thing together. So that’s where I spend most of my… Dana: Okay, would you also say it’s like, then connecting the dots too? It’s like taking them on a journey. Because people think you just throw them in the top and then they end up in the bottom. But you have to hold their hand throughout. Russell: Yeah, hold their hand and it’s like, when I’m doing a funnel I always think about if my mom was to come and buy this thing….like let’s say she bought this superman little thing. She’s like, “This is awesome.” And then she buys that and then she looks and “What should I get next?” and I’d be like, “Okay, let me explain to you why you need the next thing.” And it’s not like, I get people who all the time that ask me, their questions are like, “What price point should my upsell be?” and I’m like, that has nothing to do with anything. Price point is completely irrelevant. They just bought this, what’s the next logical thing that they need or they think they need to get the end result they’re trying to get. Whatever the price is, doesn’t really matter. It just doesn’t logically make sense. “I have this, now I need this, and this is where I’m going.” Dana: Dude, you’d be such a good goat farmer, because it’s like, they get out, they’re in the neighbor’s yard. So you gotta go over there to get over there, and you gotta bring just enough treats to get them back into your yard. So now they’re in your yard, which is an improvement, but they’re still not in the pen. Then you gotta get them over to the gate with another set of treats. Then you gotta keep them there long enough to get the gate open and then get them back into their actual pen. It’s the same thing as funnels, right? Russell: Goat funnel secrets. You should tell this, that’s actually really cool. That’s what you’re doing, that’s the name of the book we’re writing right now, isn’t it? Dana: Maybe. That’s awesome. What’s your biggest secret to traffic and getting people into your funnels? Russell: You know the answer to this already. But our biggest focus is Dream 100, at all levels. SEO’s Dream 100, PPC’s Dream 100, Facebook ads Dream 100. Dream 100 is affiliates. So it’s like, I’m a hyper, big believer in we’re not going to create traffic so who’s already congregating to that traffic, and then we Dream 100 them from every level, every aspect. We’re doing SEO stuff right now and it’s like, it’s funny because everyone’s like, “How do we get back links?” and it’s like Dream 100. “What do you mean?” I’m like, “Find who’s got the best blog with the best traffic, the best page rank, we Dream 100 them and get an article, and then that gets the dream link we want back and that solves all problems.” Dana: Awesome. What’s your biggest secret to converting traffic once they’re in your funnel? Russell: I always say that the world we live in right now, there’s two steps. The front end direct response, it’s all conversion to get somebody to do whatever to get them into our world, and then when they’re in our world I transition from, I don’t transition away from direct response, but I layer in branding with direct response and now it’s like personality and direct response principals together. Because the front end doesn’t, personality doesn’t get somebody to opt in, typically a new person. It’s like hard core curiosity, the right hook to get somebody in, and after they’re in, to keep them there, it’s like I instantly transform into brand and personality and things like that. The better connection I can build with people the faster, the easier the conversion is. So it’s like putting in all this time and effort into building trust, rapport and the conversions become easier and easier afterwards. Natalie Hodson did a video I think two nights ago. I watched it last night, a Facebook live. It’s her like, “Don’t buy my courses.” And then told her whole story about why she started doing this and how she, it told her whole story of how she came into this business and how much money she has to put in ads to sell a book and how she’s able to have…told that story and I told her, I voxed her like, “This is so good. Everyone who opts in, make them watch this first because they will instantly love you, and then they will buy everything else you have from that point forward.” But that would be horrible as a front end ad. Nobody would ever buy off it. But you convert them in, use that attention now to build a brand and a connection and then conversion becomes super easy. Now its just taking them on a story of your life and you’re offering them bits, the story of how you created that and how that story comes back to them. Dana: Love it. So with that too, that’s part of the strategy of entertaining and putting out, just letting them into your life. And I think it’s important for people to know too because ultimately, looking at the stats, that stuff you could argue is a waste of time, but at the end of the day it’s not because you’re doing exactly what you’re suggesting, that’s the overall strategy on that, isn’t it? Russell: 100% Because I could do an offer nowadays not to my own audience, if I try to drive traffic to it, it would never convert. But I do that same offer to my audience and we’ll do a million dollars in a webinar because it’s like, they love me, they trust me at this point, they have a connection with me, if I’m creating it, whereas with cold traffic it wouldn’t work.  It’s that, I don’t know, when I got started in this game it was 100% direct response, and there was like the branding guys who I always hated. And now it’s like, the mushing of those two worlds together. Direct response to get them in, and then the branding to build a connection and then the hand off is like, I think that’s the future of marketing. Those two schools of thought merging together into a super power. Dana: That’s awesome. I totally get that as a direct response guy. Okay, before I ask the next one, I have to just throw a disclaimer. I was not involved in all of the question selection. So, just putting that out there. Okay, so I wanted to clear the air and dispel the rumors. Is the CEO of Lowkey Pages actually running the company from prison? Russell: I think so. Dana: Okay, awesome. Russell: I’m pretty sure. Dana: Must be, with the branding it makes perfect sense. Russell: Did you know that the real CEO of the real Lowkey Pages got, anyway, I probably shouldn’t say it publically on video. Never mind. Dana: I didn’t do any back research on that one, that was a mistake. What’s your best advice for somebody deploying the Dream 100? Russell: I think it’s understanding tiers of levels. When I first got in this game I remember the people that I was trying to connect with were Joe Vitale, Mark Joyner, all these guys who were legends and I tried so hard to get their attention. No matter how creative I was it just kind of fell on deaf ears. I remember being offended and kind of upset at first, but I was, I don’t know, I was just kind of a nobody at the time. So after trying it out for a while and not having success I was like, this doesn’t work. Then I met a bunch of people that were kind of at my same level, or a little above me, but they were approachable. It was guys like Mike Filsaime, I don’t remember who it was back that, but a bunch of guys like that. We were all kind of the same level. So I started connecting with them with Dream 100, and because they weren’t up here, they were here, we became friends and we also crossed with each other, helping each other. It was cool. In a very short period of time, within a year, year and a half, all of our businesses came up to these other guys. At that point I started contacting these guys again and they were like, “Oh I see you everywhere man.” And I’m like, “I’ve been sending you stuff for years and you never respond back.” And then they answer your call and it’s like, “Yes, send a package to Tony Robins, that’s amazing. He’s probably not going to do a deal with any of us.” It took me 10 years to get Tony to finally promote something, 10 years of my life, and he was like, “Russell’s book is awesome, you should read it.” But 10 years it took. That’s awesome, but what’s better is look around at the market right now, and who’s kind of at your level and start connecting there. It may not be a billion dollar win over night, but a whole bunch of little wins add up and eventually you’re best friends with whoever you need to be up here, at that level. So I think that’s the biggest thing I would tell people. Dana: Man, I hope the inner circle is listening. Because that is a great lesson for all of us. There you go. How many times were you on the verge of completely giving up? Russell: Like how many days did that happen or like…. Dana: How many different times do you think? Russell: There were a lot, one happened early. It lasted a couple of weeks. Oh, I’m going to figure out the piece. After our company collapsed and I had to lay off 80 people overnight, it was everyday for two years. I would have quit if I didn’t have tax obligations to the IRS that would have thrown me in jail if I would have quit. I had some really good motivators. For two years I hated this business, and I did not like it even a little bit. Until we finally paid the IRS off, it took that strain off, where it’s like, now creativity could happen again and then it became fun again. But a lot of times, I sometimes nowadays even, it’s funny because some days it’s like, why are we doing this? I don’t know what causes that, but I think for me, whenever that does happen it’s like a selfish thing. When I’m thinking about myself more, but what’s cool is I’ll go to bed and sit there miserable and see my phone and I’ll see a bunch of voxers from people and every time I have a voxer and someone says something nice to me I star it. So I have a whole list of starred ones, so I’ll go and listen to those. And all these people who are like, I got one of yours in there, I got other people. It’s just like, you hear them, their gratitude for what you’re doing. Thank you for what you do…it’s like alright, that’s why we do this. Then we’re back into the game. So it’s less often nowadays for me, for sure. During the down times it’s tough and it happened a lot. Dana: That’s awesome. Okay, cool. And he’s definitely not lying folks, because when I was out there writing copy for you, I remember somebody did something stupid, I don’t know, somebody said something or whatever and you got like, “Geez, seriously?” You’re like, sarcastically I think you said, “I don’t want to be CEO anymore. I just want to create stuff.” And I’m sitting there in the corner, thinking, I glance over at Dave thinking, “I’ll be CEO.” Russell: I want your problems, Russell. That’s awesome. Dana: Yeah, so I’ll be on deck. Russell: I think about this a lot. My goal was never, 15 years ago when I started I wasn’t like, “Someday I’m going to be CEO of this big, huge company. I’ll be on video.” No, I just wanted to create. For me this is art. Why do I keep creating funnels? People are like, “Your company is doing great.” It’s the art for me. I’m an artist, this is how I do my art. I just love it. A lot of times I would much rather hang up the CEO hat and go back to the art of doing the thing. Dana: Yeah, it’s awesome. Looking back, what do you wish you would have done differently? Russell: From Clickfunnels as a whole, or business as a whole? Dana: Yeah, let’s look at business as a whole. Russell: I think, man, the first 10 years of my life I was running around trying to be all things to all people, and like 3 ½ - 4 years ago was the first time I was like, kind of set my flag in the ground what I was going to do. As far as Clickfunnels as a whole, looking back on it now, I would have started a software company way faster. That’s 100% sure. Of all the business models I’ve done, it’s the one I like the most. But I would have done it different too. I think if I was to start over from scratch, I would have just done Clickfunnels and that would have been it. We wouldn’t have had Backpack and Actionetics and all these other things. I would have made it simpler. I look at some people have software where it’s sticky but it’s simple. Like it does one thing. There’s power in that. You’re tech team can focus on making that one thing better and better and better as opposed to… Like right now, our biggest problem we’ve had until just recently is our tech team can focus on this part over here, and it’s like, “Okay, everyone move over here and over here.” So now we’re at a point where, as we did that the last time through, we are taking focus here. We hired a whole bunch of people to learn it while they were in there focusing and then we left, and now they’re focusing on making it better. The mistake is three years to get to that point. So I think I would have made simpler software that everyone could focus on one thing. That’s the thing too, with Clickfunnels I have so many messages I have to sell now, so many. I would have focused on just a simple message, simple tool, simple thing. Dana: I love that. Do you know what a Juicy Lucy is? The burger? Russell: No, sounds amazing. Dana: It is. It might be a Minnesota thing. So Brandon and Kaelin flew out for a Viking game and then we went and hung out for a while and they took me to this bar in this weird neighborhood, it was really sketchy, to get a Juicy Lucy. So it’s basically a burger with cheese in the middle, and it was this place called Matt’s Bar in St. Paul, Minnesota, it’s world famous. Anyway, we get in there, and I’m with Brandon and Kaelin, we get in line for the burger, it’s just a nasty looking place, really bad, but great burger, world famous. And what we noticed was, they served us the burger with fries and ketchup and a napkin in a crappy little basket, and then we had water. And then I think it was Kaelin, was like, “Hey, do you have ice?” And they’re like, “Nope.” A bar without ice. And I was like, someone else asked for something but then I asked, “Do you guys have a fork?” “Nope.” So they have Juicy Lucy’s and French fries, and they do that better than every other person and that’s why even despite all their shortcomings they’re the best. So it’s a good a lesson, I think, for everybody. Alright, lightening the mood a bit. Did you know that James P. Friell is actually a really nice guy, deep down? Russell: He’s actually a nice guy, deep down. Dana: He is. Russell: I see glimpses of that, I think it’s possible. Dana: Is he there? Where is he? He has the day off. Russell: Did he leave for the day? Woman: I don’t know. His computer’s here, I don’t know where he is. Russell: His computer’s here. We’ll make fun of him when he gets back. Dana: Of course he’s probably skipped out early. Okay, what are you glad you did and wouldn’t change, business wise? Russell: Biggest thing I’m glad I did, and this took me 12 years before I did it, was actually bringing in partners. I was first 12 years like, “No, I’m Russell. I’m the guy who started this business, blah, blah, blah.” So because of that, you could hire people, but that’s it. Clickfunnels came around, Todd and I sat down and brainstormed the whole thing with Clickfunnels and he’s like, “Hey, I’m only going to do this if we can be partners instead of like an employee.” And I was just like, ugh. And the prideful Russell was like, “No, I’m not…” but then I was like, witnessing my whole business crashing, I’d been humbled a lot. I was like, “You know what, let’s do it.” And it transformed everything. So grateful for that, and I think if I was ever to start a company again, I think my first step before everything, would be assembling my Avengers team, or my Justice League team, whatever you want to call it, before it got started. I need the best in the world of these 5 spots. I gotta identify, here’s the 5 or 6 people, the things we need and I’d go and spend the first year just recruiting those people and getting them in place, then create the thing. Instead of starting as an entrepreneur and hiring employee one and employee two, it’s so much faster just to go the other way around. Dana: Awesome. What’s the craziest thing you’ve ever sent in the mail? Russell: Physical mail? Dana: Mmmhmm Russell: I don’t have mine, but I’m going to tell you my friends story because it’s the craziest ever. Dana: I think I know it but.. Russell: Did I tell you this already? So my friend, he pooped in a box and then he mailed it, and apparently it’s a federal offense to send poop. He did it at college and the college mail room got it and smelled it, and he actually got expelled from Brigham Young University, but it never went through the mail. But apparently it’s a federal offense to mail poop. Dana: Wow, so it got intercepted before it departed from BYU campus? Russell: It could have been bad. Dana: Wow. Okay, so I don’t recommend that. Russell: I think the weirdest thing I’ve ever mailed, not mailed but it was like pizza, I’ve done this a lot of times, called up a pizza delivery place wherever a guys at and deliver like 10 pizzas at once. Stuff like that. Dana: yeah, just to get people’s attention. Russell: Yeah, it works good. Dana: Love it. What’s something that having a team relieves you from? Russell: It lets me, like right now with Clickfunnels people ask me, “How do you keep up with the software?” I’m like, I don’t. I use it and I complain and that’s all I do. And that team does everything. So I don’t have to worry about that. I only have to focus on the part I like, which is the marketing. And that’s all I have to, I get to stay within my unique ability and not the blend of all other things. And I think that’s the key of, in fact, James P. Friell if he were here, he’d quote some famous old guy who said something that was really cool. But the division of labor, something, something. There’s the quote, he can find it for us. Basically letting me do my unique ability and having every other person do their unique ability as opposed to other things. Mandy, when she started coaching with us, it was really cool. She gets to focus on the coaching of it. At first I was like, “Okay and then do this and this and this.” And then she struggled. The administration of it wasn’t very good. Melanie is amazing at administration, how about Melanie help Mandy, and now it runs awesome. And Melanie is the most amazing person at that in the world. So it’s like, everyone has a good and unique ability, whereas I used to try to bring someone in a role and give them 30 things to do, because I thought they should all be able to 30 things. When they did one thing with their unique ability and everything else just sucked. I did a podcast on this a little while ago, but I think the reason is because as entrepreneurs, we start the business initially and we have to do all 30 things, and we suck at most of them, but because we have so much brute force, we have success. And then we hire people, expect them to do 30 things like we did, and that’s the wrong way to look at it. You bring someone to do the one thing and be the best at that. They take that piece away from you and do it a million times better and then you can keep doing that. That’s what gives me the ability to do that, just focus on my unique ability and just nothing else. Dana: Love it. I reserved 30 second timeslot for you to give a shameless plug to something you’d like to sell, starting now. Russell: Hey everybody, welcome to the pitch section of the Decade in the Day. I would really like to sell, I have nothing else to sell these guys. I kind of want to do….I got nothing man, I don’t even know. Oh I know what we can do! Okay, you see this book, it’s pretty cool. This book I’m not going to sell, but we just wrote a book called Network Marketing Secrets for MLMer’s, and it’s exactly this thin and it’s got cartoons like this in it. It’s so awesome. So that’s going to go live in like a week and a half, so you guys should go buy that, even if you’re not in network marketing. Just to support me and to funnel hack me. Dana: Awesome, love it. How do they get it? Is there even a URL yet? Russell: There will be networkmarketingsecrets.com. Dana: go there. Okay, dude that was actually really good off the cusp like that. Well done. I should have given you a heads up. Okay, now I have reserved myself 30 seconds for a shameless plug. Mine’s more rehearsed. Go. So all the time, people ask me, literally all the time, “Dana, how do you sell a book for $2,000 when everybody else sells them for $20 bucks? How do you charge $20 grand for something that other people charge $500 for? How do you make so much money as a goat farmer with only 4 goats in your herd?” and I’m just like, dude, it’s simple. It’s the Dream 100. If you haven’t had a chance, or if you don’t know what the Dream 100 is, go get Chet Holmes Ultimate Sales Machine book. If you do and you’re ready to just go hog wild in it and explode your business, then go get the Dream 100 book. Russell: Where do you get the Dream 100 book, Dana? Dana: Dream100.com. Okay, cool. Russell: What’s the price on it, is it still….? Dana: It’s $2 grand, well, unless you find the secret link where you can get it free plus shipping. But yeah… Russell: Is the secret link dream100.com? Dana: forward slash free. Don’t share it. Oh boy. What’s the biggest domino you tip over every day? Russell: Dang, these are good questions. Every day? For me now, it’s making sure that my team all has what they need to get done what they’re doing.  I look into my role now, it’s less of me doing things and more of me coaching people who are doing things. Making sure that everyone has the ability to run in the morning, so they’re not waiting on the direction. You know what I mean? And we have a lot of east coast people, so before I go to bed at night, I try to make sure east coast people have what they have, so when they wake up 2 hours before I do, they can start running. That’s the biggest thing. Dana: Awesome, that’s great. I heard the internet speed in Boise is capped at 1.5 Megabits per second. Is that really true? If so, how can such a successful tech company be headquartered there? Russell: Is that true, Melanie? Do you know? Melanie: I have no idea. Russell: I have no idea. We do get angry though, often at it. Is that really true? Dana: I have no idea. I’m in a much more rural area, so I doubt it. I just published my 5th earth shattering book for entrepreneurs and sellers, should I keep writing more and put them on the shelf for a while to collect dust and do nothing at all with, the hundreds of hours invested in them, or start promoting and sell them? That’s a jab at myself because you called me out on the last mastermind. Russell: No I think, what’s funny though, at the last mastermind is where I had my big epiphany too, of focusing on the value ladder, and then all our creativity should be focused on the front end of the value ladder, bringing people in. I spent almost every day since then, trying to get the rest of my value ladder in place. I’ve killed two businesses that both made over a million dollars a year, because they didn’t fit in the value ladder. So I took that to heart and hopefully you have as well. But I think that’s it. You can keep creating stuff, but as long as there’s the back end to support it. Dana: Love it. The only other time I went to Orlando Florida, my fiancé ended up coming home pregnant. Should we put out a PSA to warn couples traveling there for Funnel Hacking Live that there’s something in the air down there? Woman: Did you hear Melanie’s laugh? Russell: Melanie’s dying over there. Are we doing a wedding when we get down there this time too, so it could be, the first time you got pregnant, the second time you got married? Dana: I got people lobbying for it right now. It’s going to become a hashtag, yeah. Okay, I’m just going to skip to the good ones. I read about a story about a farmer who was visiting your house, that tripped into your pool, in the pitch black, and fell flat out on your pool cover and nearly ripped it apart, and scared all of your children in the process. Is that true? Russell: It is so true. I wish the camera would have been rolling for that, because it was amazing. We have a pool color that’s the same color as the cement around it, and it was dark outside. So Dana goes and walks right to the pool cover and it’s like woosh. And my kids are like, “No!” it was amazing. Dana: Oh man. Okay, finishing up here. Will you sell me your domain name Dream100secrets.com please, you’re not even using it. Russell: Do I own that one? Dana: Yeah, you’re not using it though. I could use it. Russell: I might be up for that. Definite maybe, definite maybe. Dana: Just think about it. Okay, well I’ve exhausted all the good ones. Unless there’s any good ones in the chat. Russell: Did we check the chat? I have no idea. Woman: Everyone’s going crazy. Russell: Everyone’s just laughing at you. Woman: “Loving this.” “This is amazing.” “This is gorgeous.” Russell: No good questions. Dana: That’s alright, unless you have anything for me? Russell: Let me think. When are you launching the super funnel? Actually, did I tell you what we called it inside our office now, for us? Dana: This is going to be good. Russell: Which board is it on? There it is. This is called Project Mother Funnel. This is our Mother Funnel that sends people all the way through our value ladder in the shortest period of time possible, in the most exciting way possible. AKA, Project Mother Funnel. My question for you, with your new value ladder and multiple front ends, when is your Project Mother Funnel all going live? I’m holding you accountable. We gotta cover up that wall. Dana: I know, I wish I could show you through that wall. It’s still there. I’m going to say ASAP, how’s that. Russell: I love it. I’m getting this done by my birthday, March 8th. It’s my birthday present to myself. Can you get yours done by March 8th? Dana: I’ll do it. And what’s the bet then? Who has to do what? Woman: That’s how you motivate Dana. It’s not money. Russell: That’s good. Let’s see, I has to do with wedding or goats or both. Dana: Yep. Dave: If you lose, Dana, you get married at Funnel Hacking Live. Russell: He wants that though. Dana: I actually do. Russell: They want a beach wedding. So on the beach we could do it. Dana: We could bring the beach to us. Russell: I have sand, there’s sand in Boise. We could bring it in the room. It’d be a pain but it’d be worth it. Dana: How about you have to bring a goat to your office for a day, if you don’t hit yours. And I have to sleep with my goats for a night. Dave: You’d enjoy that though… Russell: Yeah, there’s different levels of that. Dana: There we go…I have to….Don’t knock it until you try it guys, geez. Russell: How about this, if you get the whole thing live by my birthday I may be willing to sell you Dream100secrets.com, if not I’m launching a competitor product, I’m going to take you out. Dana: Geez. This is going to be a nasty smear campaign. Okay, deal. I take the deal. Russell: That’s awesome. Dana: What happens if you don’t get it by March 8t? Woman: Oh, he will. Russell: Goat for a day, I’m in on that. Dana: Okay, that’d be actually a good episode. Alright, thank you guys. I appreciate you. Russell: Thank you Dana, you’re awesome, man. Have a good weekend.

Interesting thoughts after my whirlwind week. On this episode Russell talks about what’s it’s like being an introvert in an extrovert’s business. He shares how you can still be successful while being introverted, just like him. Here are some interesting things in this episode: Find out why Russell loves speaking in front of thousands of people, but can still be awkward one on one. See how Russell is able to get past his introverted tenancies to still be able to sell a room. And find out why you just need to start sharing your message and with consistency you will find your voice. So listen here to find out how an introvert is making it in this extroverted business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to Marketing Secrets podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about what it’s like being an introvert inside of an extrovert’s calling. Here we go. Alright so last week was a little bit insane. I think I only slept about 2 ½ hours last night and I am really excited to fall asleep. The kids are almost all in bed, but one of them is finishing their homework so I’m like, I’m going to sneak away and talk to you guys before I pass out and then go back and finish the homework with them so. That’s why we’re here right now. So last week there was an event that I wanted to speak at for a long time and I got invited probably about six or seven months ago. I was looking forward to it and then after someone else….I get invited to speak at a lot of events, and unfortunately I have to say no to most of them just because it’s hard to leave and travel and be away from family, so it’s not typically worth the investment or the time away, especially this level in the business. It’s tough because it’s like, I’ve had people come back like, “Hey we’ll pay you $100,000 to come speak.” And I’m like, I feel like a jerk because to be able to travel there, being there, being able to travel back, it’s like, I could do a webinar and clear way more than that, you know what I mean, and be able to go sleep in my own bed at night and be with my kids that night. So it’s just tough unfortunately. But someone asked me, one of my friends, James Malinchak asked me and since I was already going to be speaking at WarriorCon, which is widespread event that I was super excited to speak at. James is in the same city. So it was like, “Sweet dude. I’ll just drive over and we’ll do this whole thing.” So we’re at the event and I’m like, I’m going to be in LA, what else is in LA? Tai Lopez is in LA, we should go hang out with Tai. Justin and Tara Williams are in LA, we should hang out with them. And it turned out to be really, really cool. Here comes Bow-dog, who has been working on his homework. Say hi to everybody. Bowen: Hey! Russell: Anyway, the vacation was crazy. Basically what happened is Dave and I jumped in a plane and flew out there to LA, and at night we got to the Warrior Event, so we decided to sneak in. We were at the back and we had white shirts on and everyone of the warriors got black shirts on that say “Warrior” on it.  I wasn’t speaking until the next day, but I walk in and they came and grabbed the shirts and like, “Go put these on right now.” So we put our shirts on so we could fit in with the whole cult-ture that their building over there. It was just cool. And then that night I was going to work on slides, I was super tired so I just went to bed. Woke up in the morning and I was going to work on slides, and I was super tired so I didn’t and we went and got massages, don’t tell mom. Massages were really good. Then after the massages I was going to work on the slides, but then I didn’t. And then Justin and Tara came to lunch, we hung out with them for lunch, which was awesome. Then it was like, the ninth hour, or twelfth hour, however that works. So I had to go get the slides done. So I went up into the room, got my slides done, saw Kevin Anderson who does all our Funnel Hacker TV stuff, he came to come film. And Brandon Fischer was there as well, he does all of other video stuff. So it was kind of cool to have those guys come out as well. They were filming the room, walking around, getting a bunch of footage and everything, which is pretty sweet. So you’ll probably see some of this on Funnel Hacker TV soon. But that’s kind of what’s happening. It’s so cool, Warrior was insane. 600 men, just insane, everyone dressed in black, it was really, really cool. I was teaching a lot of the Expert Secrets book stuff, but as I was teaching it to them I was also showing how Garret had done it. The process Garret had done to create the Warrior movement, it was really kind of cool to be like, “Here’s this piece of it, here’s how I did it. Here’s what Garret’s doing, here’s what you need to do.” And kind of go through the whole thing. So I think everyone thought it was pretty cool. The only problem, it’s so bad. I started the presentation and then I come up and Garret does this huge thing to get everyone pumped up and excited and I come on stage and start my slides and my slides aren’t working. And it’s like, I had done all this research to find out, the day we launched Clickfunnels, it was like 138 days later that he had launched his and it had the dates and time and all this stuff in the first slides. So it wasn’t like I could just BS my way through the first three or four slides. They had like pictures and the date and time. I’m like, “Ugh. Well….” So it was super anticlimactic for probably, seemed like an hour, but probably the first 2 or 3 minutes. And then they came back, you know you get kind of thrown off. It took me 5 or 6 minutes to get back on and then I think the rest of the presentation went pretty well after that. That was awesome and then we got done and we were supposed to leave to head to Tai Lopez’s house, which is like a 2 hour drive I think, but also Stu McClarin was doing a charity event…..this is homework, we’ll talk about that in a minute. We’re almost done bud, then you can….. So Stu McClarin is doing an online charity event, so I was supposed to do an interview for that, so I jumped on at the hotel before we left. And of course the hotel internet goes out. It keeps going in and out, so it’s all…..but we did our best there and ended up raising like $22,000 I think for that charity event, which was really sweet to help some families out that have been struggling with hurricane stuff. Then jumped in an Uber, drove to Tai Lopez’s house, they asked us when we got there, “What’s your hard leave time?” “We have to leave at 11:00 sharp.” So we ended up being there until after 1, almost 1:30 I think. We filmed to info products there, ate dinner with Tai and then did an interview with him, which if you haven’t seen yet, it’s online. It ended up being almost 2 hours long, it was really good. I’m going to see if I can get it on the podcast, so I may play here for you guys to hear. It turned out really cool. If I do that I will explain some of the reason behind the podcast. But we got done with that at like 1 in the morning. Jumped in an Uber and got to the new hotel somewhere else by 2. And then passed out and woke up at like 6 because I still had to do slides for the next day’s event. So I was working on slides all day. Then got down, get onstage at James event, closed 30% of the room on our package, did the whole thing and by the time we left, we were driving to the airport and I’m like, I just can’t keep my eyes open, I’m so tired. We drive to the airport, fly home and it’s interesting, because in those situations, I’m onstage, 100’s of people, everyone’s cheering, I love that. That’s me, as Russell the extrovert. I love that. My calling in life and in business is like, requires me to do that, be good at that. Because I gotta stand onstage in front of all of these people and entertain and inspire and hopefully give them the tools they need to be able to move forward. But what a lot of people don’t know is that’s not natural to me. I’m not naturally very extroverted. In fact, my whole entire life up until probably 10 years ago, when I kind of started into this business, it wasn’t even when I started this business, it was way into the business before I realized I had to start learning how to speak, talk. But I was super introverted, in fact, still am very, very introverted. But when I’m in those situations, I’m at an event and I’m onstage, it comes out of me. I love it, I really, really enjoy it but it’s funny because Dave, who’s there at all these events, he told me, “You’re onstage, you’re present, doing your thing, loving it. Then you get off stage and someone comes and asks you a question and you just shrink in this weird introverted, like you can tell I’m not comfortable in that kind of situation.” At James Malinchak’s event, it’s funny because I haven’t spoken at an event like that, where you speak and sell and people can ask you questions afterwards for a long time. And it was just tough because I’m in the back of the room and probably for an hour and a half I had people ask me question after question after question. Which is just like, super uncomfortable for me typically. And introverted Russell was really, really struggling. And then it’s funny, I got home, we took an Uber home, flew home, got back to my house about midnight and the next morning at like 8:00 we had this big church Christmas party that my wife was in charge of. Such a crazy week. So we get there and there’s you know, all the entire church, all these people, and all this stuff, and I’m there with the kids because she was stuff ready. So I bring the kids in and it was just interesting. I come in and totally introverted Russell took over. Not comfortable in that situation. I kind of sat down at the table with my kids and there’s all these amazing people who go to church with us, that I know who they are, I like them, I like them a lot. There’s especially a bunch of guys that I really think are just awesome. And it’s so weird how much fear I have to go and just say hi to them. I hate it. That’s one thing that really frustrates me about myself. In my element, it’s easy to go out there and people come to me, because it’s the brand I built. I go to events and people come and they want to ask me questions, so it’s really easy. It just very naturally comes to me and I can talk to them. But I go to these other places where no one really knows who I am, and it’s just, I’m a person. It’s hard. I don’t know why I struggle so much to just walk up and say to them and talk to them. It’s interesting how much that introvert side of me, how much I struggle with that. I remember sitting there the whole Christmas party, looking around and seeing all these amazing people, people that are fascinated by us, “I want to go talk to that person, I want to ask them a question, or do whatever.” But I honestly have so much fear inside of me, it drives me nuts. All this fear keeps me from going and saying hi, just going and talking to them. And even when they do come say hi to me or whatever, it’s just weird. I’m really good at carrying on a conversation when people come and ask me questions, you know, but it’s like, we’re on mutual ground, they don’t really know much about me or whatever, I really struggle. I always try to think, I need to be interesting and ask them questions about themselves, but I’m just not as good at that. It’s just fascinating, the contrast of the night before I was onstage in front of all these people, people chanting my name and screaming and going crazy, people crying and this whole thing. And then the next day I’m around people that live near me and I can’t even…it’s interesting. So that’s a little glimpse of what it looks like to be an introvert in an extrovert position or calling. So unless you think that I got everything put together, I still get scared to death. One of my biggest fears in life is calling people. I hate calling people on the phone, it scares me to death. That’s why I use Voxer with my inner circle members, that’s why I never, the only phone call I ever answer is from my wife. Everyone else I make go to voicemail, then I listen to the voicemail and if it sounds awesome I call them back, otherwise I just don’t call them back at all. I’ll text them back or I’ll vox them back. Just because I have these weird fears about that. Anyway, it’s not just me, it’s everyone. So don’t feel bad if you are like, “I’m too introverted I’m never going to be good at this business. I don’t dare talk to people.” I get that. Still to this day, I get so nervous behind it. But that’s one of the powers and beautiful things about this kind of business. My thoughts are like, when you are introverted it’s really hard to do face to face, one on one selling. Nothing scares me more than that. It’s funny how we built huge call centers and stuff like that and I don’t think I’ve ever picked up the phone and called someone and sold them on the phone. I don’t think I would even have the guts to do that yet. I can stand in front of a room of a thousand people or five thousand people and sell. For example, I’m speaking at Grand Cardone’s event in February and there’s supposed to be somewhere between 8500 and 10,000 people. I’m so excited for that. The extrovert in me is like, yes, this is going to be awesome, I’ll step onstage, I’ll speak, I’ll sell. It’ll be so much fun. And then afterwards in the hallway, anyone asks me questions I get all awkward and weird. Hopefully someday I figure it out. So hopefully my kids, hopefully Bowen over here, will never be nervous. Do you get nervous from talking to people at all? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: Do you get nervous standing in front of a lot of people and talking? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: Both of them? Bowen: I’m about to do it in front of my entire class. Russell: You’re giving a presentation tomorrow? Bowen: Wednesday. Russell: On Wednesday? Does it make you nervous? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: What makes you more nervous, talking in front of a class of a whole bunch of people, or just talking one on one with somebody? Bowen: Probably the whole class. Russell: The whole class does? Interesting. See for me, I was just telling them, when I’m onstage with a whole bunch of people I feel comfortable, but then one on one I get really nervous. Bowen: if it’s one on one I guess you do kind of get nervous. I mean, it was kind of hard for me to do this because one on one is kind of hard because if you mess up they’ll recognize it. Except if it’s a lot of people, they don’t yell it out. Russell: Anyway, I just wanted to share with you guys tonight, I don’t think this is something anyone is going to learn much from, other than hopefully give the introverts out there some hope that they can do this. And people that are extroverted, help them understand their super powers. A lot of those guys are going to be a lot better one on one and a lot of introverts just seem like….it’s funny, because it’s not just me either. I was talking to Frank Kern and he’s like, “I love doing big events, but it scares me to talk to people afterward.” He’s super introverted. I think a lot of people in these kinds of positions are. So it’s neat because it’s something that introverts can thrive in, in mass situation, but then they’re…even within there they can still have success. Hopefully that helps some of you guys who may get nervous or may think, “I can’t do this, I can’t do this. I’m not like Russell.” I get people all the time, “I’m not like you Russell. I can’t stand up in front of people and just talk for hours.” I’m like, “Dude, but you can talk to someone face to face, I can’t do that. It scares the crap out of me.” I mean, that’s a bad word here, in this family. It scares the..something else out of me. That’s the worse swear word you’re going to hear from Russell. Bowen: Crud maybe. Russell: Crud? It scares the crud out of me. Yeah, that’s way better. Good job.  Anyway, I hope that helps those introverts out here to understand how it is that you can still succeed in an extroverts world. In doing this stuff, the Expert Secrets stuff, putting your voice out there, putting your message out there. Because when all is said and done, the only thing that really matters is the impact you have on people’s lives. So do it, it’s worth it. At first you’re not going to be very good, but if you get consistent with it, you get better and better and better. I think I told you guys, Steven Larsen told me, because I started this podcast back before I knew how to see if anybody was listening to it, so I think for four or five years I didn’t have it hooked to any stat system. And I’m glad I didn’t know because I just kept doing it and doing it. And Steven Larsen said to me one time, “Yeah, the first 45-46 episodes weren’t very good. After that it started getting really, really good though.” But that’s how it kind of works. It’s all about you guys getting out there and sharing, sharing, and sharing and eventually you’ll get comfortable with your voice. I just watched Alex Charfin, he launched his Momentum podcast after the Pirates Cove mastermind this year, and he’s passed like 80 thousand downloads, which is awesome. And what he just posted on Facebook about it was just, because he thought about doing a podcast forever and I was the one that was like, “Dude, just do it. You’d be awesome at it. Just jump off the cliff.” And he said that by doing it, it was really cool. He’s like, “I found my voice. People started finding me. Other people referred people and my audience grew. I have people listening to my voice every single day and it’s just like such a good thing.” But again, it’s all about just doing it. And the more you do it, the better, the more your message will get clear, the better you’ll find your voice, the more comfortable you’ll feel. The nicest thing about these mass media things that we have, podcasts and videos, webinars, things like that, is that even if you’re introverted you can still do this because you don’t have to talk face to face to anybody. You can do group selling, group everything and it’s awesome. So there you go, that’s all I got. I’m going to go get this kid to bed, get his homework done so I can go to bed because I am so tired. Appreciate you all, talk to you soon. Bye.

Interesting thoughts after my whirlwind week. On this episode Russell talks about what’s it’s like being an introvert in an extrovert’s business. He shares how you can still be successful while being introverted, just like him. Here are some interesting things in this episode: Find out why Russell loves speaking in front of thousands of people, but can still be awkward one on one. See how Russell is able to get past his introverted tenancies to still be able to sell a room. And find out why you just need to start sharing your message and with consistency you will find your voice. So listen here to find out how an introvert is making it in this extroverted business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to Marketing Secrets podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about what it’s like being an introvert inside of an extrovert’s calling. Here we go. Alright so last week was a little bit insane. I think I only slept about 2 ½ hours last night and I am really excited to fall asleep. The kids are almost all in bed, but one of them is finishing their homework so I’m like, I’m going to sneak away and talk to you guys before I pass out and then go back and finish the homework with them so. That’s why we’re here right now. So last week there was an event that I wanted to speak at for a long time and I got invited probably about six or seven months ago. I was looking forward to it and then after someone else….I get invited to speak at a lot of events, and unfortunately I have to say no to most of them just because it’s hard to leave and travel and be away from family, so it’s not typically worth the investment or the time away, especially this level in the business. It’s tough because it’s like, I’ve had people come back like, “Hey we’ll pay you $100,000 to come speak.” And I’m like, I feel like a jerk because to be able to travel there, being there, being able to travel back, it’s like, I could do a webinar and clear way more than that, you know what I mean, and be able to go sleep in my own bed at night and be with my kids that night. So it’s just tough unfortunately. But someone asked me, one of my friends, James Malinchak asked me and since I was already going to be speaking at WarriorCon, which is widespread event that I was super excited to speak at. James is in the same city. So it was like, “Sweet dude. I’ll just drive over and we’ll do this whole thing.” So we’re at the event and I’m like, I’m going to be in LA, what else is in LA? Tai Lopez is in LA, we should go hang out with Tai. Justin and Tara Williams are in LA, we should hang out with them. And it turned out to be really, really cool. Here comes Bow-dog, who has been working on his homework. Say hi to everybody. Bowen: Hey! Russell: Anyway, the vacation was crazy. Basically what happened is Dave and I jumped in a plane and flew out there to LA, and at night we got to the Warrior Event, so we decided to sneak in. We were at the back and we had white shirts on and everyone of the warriors got black shirts on that say “Warrior” on it.  I wasn’t speaking until the next day, but I walk in and they came and grabbed the shirts and like, “Go put these on right now.” So we put our shirts on so we could fit in with the whole cult-ture that their building over there. It was just cool. And then that night I was going to work on slides, I was super tired so I just went to bed. Woke up in the morning and I was going to work on slides, and I was super tired so I didn’t and we went and got massages, don’t tell mom. Massages were really good. Then after the massages I was going to work on the slides, but then I didn’t. And then Justin and Tara came to lunch, we hung out with them for lunch, which was awesome. Then it was like, the ninth hour, or twelfth hour, however that works. So I had to go get the slides done. So I went up into the room, got my slides done, saw Kevin Anderson who does all our Funnel Hacker TV stuff, he came to come film. And Brandon Fischer was there as well, he does all of other video stuff. So it was kind of cool to have those guys come out as well. They were filming the room, walking around, getting a bunch of footage and everything, which is pretty sweet. So you’ll probably see some of this on Funnel Hacker TV soon. But that’s kind of what’s happening. It’s so cool, Warrior was insane. 600 men, just insane, everyone dressed in black, it was really, really cool. I was teaching a lot of the Expert Secrets book stuff, but as I was teaching it to them I was also showing how Garret had done it. The process Garret had done to create the Warrior movement, it was really kind of cool to be like, “Here’s this piece of it, here’s how I did it. Here’s what Garret’s doing, here’s what you need to do.” And kind of go through the whole thing. So I think everyone thought it was pretty cool. The only problem, it’s so bad. I started the presentation and then I come up and Garret does this huge thing to get everyone pumped up and excited and I come on stage and start my slides and my slides aren’t working. And it’s like, I had done all this research to find out, the day we launched Clickfunnels, it was like 138 days later that he had launched his and it had the dates and time and all this stuff in the first slides. So it wasn’t like I could just BS my way through the first three or four slides. They had like pictures and the date and time. I’m like, “Ugh. Well….” So it was super anticlimactic for probably, seemed like an hour, but probably the first 2 or 3 minutes. And then they came back, you know you get kind of thrown off. It took me 5 or 6 minutes to get back on and then I think the rest of the presentation went pretty well after that. That was awesome and then we got done and we were supposed to leave to head to Tai Lopez’s house, which is like a 2 hour drive I think, but also Stu McClarin was doing a charity event…..this is homework, we’ll talk about that in a minute. We’re almost done bud, then you can….. So Stu McClarin is doing an online charity event, so I was supposed to do an interview for that, so I jumped on at the hotel before we left. And of course the hotel internet goes out. It keeps going in and out, so it’s all…..but we did our best there and ended up raising like $22,000 I think for that charity event, which was really sweet to help some families out that have been struggling with hurricane stuff. Then jumped in an Uber, drove to Tai Lopez’s house, they asked us when we got there, “What’s your hard leave time?” “We have to leave at 11:00 sharp.” So we ended up being there until after 1, almost 1:30 I think. We filmed to info products there, ate dinner with Tai and then did an interview with him, which if you haven’t seen yet, it’s online. It ended up being almost 2 hours long, it was really good. I’m going to see if I can get it on the podcast, so I may play here for you guys to hear. It turned out really cool. If I do that I will explain some of the reason behind the podcast. But we got done with that at like 1 in the morning. Jumped in an Uber and got to the new hotel somewhere else by 2. And then passed out and woke up at like 6 because I still had to do slides for the next day’s event. So I was working on slides all day. Then got down, get onstage at James event, closed 30% of the room on our package, did the whole thing and by the time we left, we were driving to the airport and I’m like, I just can’t keep my eyes open, I’m so tired. We drive to the airport, fly home and it’s interesting, because in those situations, I’m onstage, 100’s of people, everyone’s cheering, I love that. That’s me, as Russell the extrovert. I love that. My calling in life and in business is like, requires me to do that, be good at that. Because I gotta stand onstage in front of all of these people and entertain and inspire and hopefully give them the tools they need to be able to move forward. But what a lot of people don’t know is that’s not natural to me. I’m not naturally very extroverted. In fact, my whole entire life up until probably 10 years ago, when I kind of started into this business, it wasn’t even when I started this business, it was way into the business before I realized I had to start learning how to speak, talk. But I was super introverted, in fact, still am very, very introverted. But when I’m in those situations, I’m at an event and I’m onstage, it comes out of me. I love it, I really, really enjoy it but it’s funny because Dave, who’s there at all these events, he told me, “You’re onstage, you’re present, doing your thing, loving it. Then you get off stage and someone comes and asks you a question and you just shrink in this weird introverted, like you can tell I’m not comfortable in that kind of situation.” At James Malinchak’s event, it’s funny because I haven’t spoken at an event like that, where you speak and sell and people can ask you questions afterwards for a long time. And it was just tough because I’m in the back of the room and probably for an hour and a half I had people ask me question after question after question. Which is just like, super uncomfortable for me typically. And introverted Russell was really, really struggling. And then it’s funny, I got home, we took an Uber home, flew home, got back to my house about midnight and the next morning at like 8:00 we had this big church Christmas party that my wife was in charge of. Such a crazy week. So we get there and there’s you know, all the entire church, all these people, and all this stuff, and I’m there with the kids because she was stuff ready. So I bring the kids in and it was just interesting. I come in and totally introverted Russell took over. Not comfortable in that situation. I kind of sat down at the table with my kids and there’s all these amazing people who go to church with us, that I know who they are, I like them, I like them a lot. There’s especially a bunch of guys that I really think are just awesome. And it’s so weird how much fear I have to go and just say hi to them. I hate it. That’s one thing that really frustrates me about myself. In my element, it’s easy to go out there and people come to me, because it’s the brand I built. I go to events and people come and they want to ask me questions, so it’s really easy. It just very naturally comes to me and I can talk to them. But I go to these other places where no one really knows who I am, and it’s just, I’m a person. It’s hard. I don’t know why I struggle so much to just walk up and say to them and talk to them. It’s interesting how much that introvert side of me, how much I struggle with that. I remember sitting there the whole Christmas party, looking around and seeing all these amazing people, people that are fascinated by us, “I want to go talk to that person, I want to ask them a question, or do whatever.” But I honestly have so much fear inside of me, it drives me nuts. All this fear keeps me from going and saying hi, just going and talking to them. And even when they do come say hi to me or whatever, it’s just weird. I’m really good at carrying on a conversation when people come and ask me questions, you know, but it’s like, we’re on mutual ground, they don’t really know much about me or whatever, I really struggle. I always try to think, I need to be interesting and ask them questions about themselves, but I’m just not as good at that. It’s just fascinating, the contrast of the night before I was onstage in front of all these people, people chanting my name and screaming and going crazy, people crying and this whole thing. And then the next day I’m around people that live near me and I can’t even…it’s interesting. So that’s a little glimpse of what it looks like to be an introvert in an extrovert position or calling. So unless you think that I got everything put together, I still get scared to death. One of my biggest fears in life is calling people. I hate calling people on the phone, it scares me to death. That’s why I use Voxer with my inner circle members, that’s why I never, the only phone call I ever answer is from my wife. Everyone else I make go to voicemail, then I listen to the voicemail and if it sounds awesome I call them back, otherwise I just don’t call them back at all. I’ll text them back or I’ll vox them back. Just because I have these weird fears about that. Anyway, it’s not just me, it’s everyone. So don’t feel bad if you are like, “I’m too introverted I’m never going to be good at this business. I don’t dare talk to people.” I get that. Still to this day, I get so nervous behind it. But that’s one of the powers and beautiful things about this kind of business. My thoughts are like, when you are introverted it’s really hard to do face to face, one on one selling. Nothing scares me more than that. It’s funny how we built huge call centers and stuff like that and I don’t think I’ve ever picked up the phone and called someone and sold them on the phone. I don’t think I would even have the guts to do that yet. I can stand in front of a room of a thousand people or five thousand people and sell. For example, I’m speaking at Grand Cardone’s event in February and there’s supposed to be somewhere between 8500 and 10,000 people. I’m so excited for that. The extrovert in me is like, yes, this is going to be awesome, I’ll step onstage, I’ll speak, I’ll sell. It’ll be so much fun. And then afterwards in the hallway, anyone asks me questions I get all awkward and weird. Hopefully someday I figure it out. So hopefully my kids, hopefully Bowen over here, will never be nervous. Do you get nervous from talking to people at all? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: Do you get nervous standing in front of a lot of people and talking? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: Both of them? Bowen: I’m about to do it in front of my entire class. Russell: You’re giving a presentation tomorrow? Bowen: Wednesday. Russell: On Wednesday? Does it make you nervous? Bowen: Yeah. Russell: What makes you more nervous, talking in front of a class of a whole bunch of people, or just talking one on one with somebody? Bowen: Probably the whole class. Russell: The whole class does? Interesting. See for me, I was just telling them, when I’m onstage with a whole bunch of people I feel comfortable, but then one on one I get really nervous. Bowen: if it’s one on one I guess you do kind of get nervous. I mean, it was kind of hard for me to do this because one on one is kind of hard because if you mess up they’ll recognize it. Except if it’s a lot of people, they don’t yell it out. Russell: Anyway, I just wanted to share with you guys tonight, I don’t think this is something anyone is going to learn much from, other than hopefully give the introverts out there some hope that they can do this. And people that are extroverted, help them understand their super powers. A lot of those guys are going to be a lot better one on one and a lot of introverts just seem like….it’s funny, because it’s not just me either. I was talking to Frank Kern and he’s like, “I love doing big events, but it scares me to talk to people afterward.” He’s super introverted. I think a lot of people in these kinds of positions are. So it’s neat because it’s something that introverts can thrive in, in mass situation, but then they’re…even within there they can still have success. Hopefully that helps some of you guys who may get nervous or may think, “I can’t do this, I can’t do this. I’m not like Russell.” I get people all the time, “I’m not like you Russell. I can’t stand up in front of people and just talk for hours.” I’m like, “Dude, but you can talk to someone face to face, I can’t do that. It scares the crap out of me.” I mean, that’s a bad word here, in this family. It scares the..something else out of me. That’s the worse swear word you’re going to hear from Russell. Bowen: Crud maybe. Russell: Crud? It scares the crud out of me. Yeah, that’s way better. Good job.  Anyway, I hope that helps those introverts out here to understand how it is that you can still succeed in an extroverts world. In doing this stuff, the Expert Secrets stuff, putting your voice out there, putting your message out there. Because when all is said and done, the only thing that really matters is the impact you have on people’s lives. So do it, it’s worth it. At first you’re not going to be very good, but if you get consistent with it, you get better and better and better. I think I told you guys, Steven Larsen told me, because I started this podcast back before I knew how to see if anybody was listening to it, so I think for four or five years I didn’t have it hooked to any stat system. And I’m glad I didn’t know because I just kept doing it and doing it. And Steven Larsen said to me one time, “Yeah, the first 45-46 episodes weren’t very good. After that it started getting really, really good though.” But that’s how it kind of works. It’s all about you guys getting out there and sharing, sharing, and sharing and eventually you’ll get comfortable with your voice. I just watched Alex Charfin, he launched his Momentum podcast after the Pirates Cove mastermind this year, and he’s passed like 80 thousand downloads, which is awesome. And what he just posted on Facebook about it was just, because he thought about doing a podcast forever and I was the one that was like, “Dude, just do it. You’d be awesome at it. Just jump off the cliff.” And he said that by doing it, it was really cool. He’s like, “I found my voice. People started finding me. Other people referred people and my audience grew. I have people listening to my voice every single day and it’s just like such a good thing.” But again, it’s all about just doing it. And the more you do it, the better, the more your message will get clear, the better you’ll find your voice, the more comfortable you’ll feel. The nicest thing about these mass media things that we have, podcasts and videos, webinars, things like that, is that even if you’re introverted you can still do this because you don’t have to talk face to face to anybody. You can do group selling, group everything and it’s awesome. So there you go, that’s all I got. I’m going to go get this kid to bed, get his homework done so I can go to bed because I am so tired. Appreciate you all, talk to you soon. Bye.

Food for Families https://www.parkviewcommunitymission.org/food-for-families Interview Transcript   Hugh Ballou: Greetings to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. We have two guests today. They both work in the same charity. It's called Food for Families. I was down there yesterday hearing some stories. There was a lunch gathering for a bunch of charities that work out of the same building. I have been talking to these guys for a while and said that we needed to tell their story because people have a lot of ideas, and putting some traction to ideas is pretty important. I learn from people who have lessons to teach, but I also learn from people who have life lessons to teach through stories. I am going to ask these two gentlemen to introduce themselves, a little bit about their background, and then we will circle around and talk about their foundation. Ray Booth, who are you? Ray Booth: I'm one of the rare breeds. I was born here, and I'll die here. I'll never live anywhere else. Hugh: We are in Lynchburg, Virginia by the way. Ray: It's a great place. Come join us. I felt a calling early in my life to be an engineer, and I was a simple engineer graduate. After I got out of college, I felt called to ministry and considered that quite a bit. I think I'd do best in public service. I spent my whole working life in public service, first with the state government, then 25 years with the city as Director of Public Works. I have impacted this community. Everywhere I drive, I see my impacts and construction all the time. After I retired, I went to work with my construction company. I did more private/public partnerships here in Virginia in many of the cities and counties throughout Virginia. I retired from that, and now I am a consultant and real estate broker and am still trying to impact the community for the better. Hugh: Gordy Harper, tell us who you are. Gordy Harper: I am the director of Food for Families. Previously I was a real estate broker. Before that, a Harley Davidson dealer in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Hugh: We are across the state from the commonwealth. That is four or five hours away the other way. Gordy: Virginia Beach? Hugh: Yeah. Gordy: Four hours, at least. Hugh: It's real flat over there. Gordy: Yes, it is. Hugh: I ran a half-marathon there. Part of the reason I chose it was because it was flat. The other part was because Yuengling served beer at the water stops. Food for Families, this is a nonprofit here. Let me set the context. We live in Lynchburg, Virginia. Lynchburg has one of the largest populations of those that live below the poverty line. I think 24% of the population. Food for Families is sort of geographically located where a lot of that population is. When was Food for Families started, and why was it started? Ray: Many years ago, Food for Families is located in a church that currently is in a poorest area in the city. Back in the ‘60s and ‘70s, it was the heartbeat of the city. The first shopping center was there. This was the in place to be. It grew exponentially and was one of the wealthier cities and churches in the city. As time moved on and the new shopping mall was built in the suburbs and all the retail people in that part of the city left and went to the new mall and the development moved there, this area became more of a transient location. Over time, the poorest people in the city moved into this area. Lynchburg in the early 1900's was one of the six wealthiest cities in the nation. A lot of wealth here, and they built huge homes. We have a lot of beautiful inner city homes. They were turned into apartments in the '50s and ‘60s. Once the people started to come and appreciate the architecture, they bought all of those homes and moved the poor people out. The poor people gathered around the Parkview Community Church. That is now the poorest area west of Richmond in the whole state of Virginia. The church was flourishing. As retail moved out, it started going downhill. They started having a Wednesday night meal every week. Back in 1996, a street person came in, and they fed him. The next week, he brought two of his friends. And more and more of the street people came in. More of the congregation left. They continued to feed the poor, and that number grew and grew. Still to this day, 21 years later, there is still a Wednesday night meal. We feed 125-150 people on Wednesday nights. The church started food boxes in 2007 because they saw all of these poor people on Wednesday night needing food. In 2008, the church was closed, and the food pantry survived another year or two until the guy who ran it died. It was closed for three or four months. Through a grant, we reopened the food pantry in 2011 as a client choice facility, the first one west of Richmond and one of the few- Hugh: Tell us what client choice means. Ray: Client choice means the neighbors come in and get a grocery cart and actually go back through the pantry and pick up the items their family will eat. Pick a produce, meat, dairy, bread, so forth. They only shop like you would shop in a grocery store or anywhere else and pick up the items their family will eat. That was very successful and still is to this day. There has been a number of changes over the years. In 2012, a gentleman who has never been married, very poor, never owned a car died and left $225,000 for the benefit of youth in Lynchburg and to be used by the district superintendent. They developed a partnership with UMFS, which houses foster care and adopting. They agreed to put a regional office there. They used a third of the money to run the space. After they came, the district office moved there. We divided expenses three ways and utilities, and the Lord has continued to bless over the years. It has really taken off, and now we have 13 different nonprofits in the building. Many of those are very complementary to Food for Families and the neighbors, and today we serve 25% of the poor people in Lynchburg with food. That's 3,000 individuals. We have had as much as 80,000 pounds of food going through the facility. Hugh: 80,000 pounds. I have been by there on a Saturday. There is people waiting. Ray, when did you join this organization? Ray: I joined in 2010. Hugh: 2010. This is 2017 when we are making this recording. People may be listening to this in some other year or universe. Gordy, when did you join this organization? Gordy: 2016. Hugh: 2016. Year and a half. Ray is the chairman of the board, and you are? Gordy: The director. Hugh: What other data would you like to share? What I'm hearing is there are people who were doing something that was meaningful and they stayed with it. There is people listening to this who've had an idea and tried it, but haven't really stayed with it long-term. I've also heard because of the value of the people staying with it, you attracted some funding and some other synergies with some other organizations. What other things do you want to share about what you know from the history and what the history is from 2016 going forward? Gordy: As I came in, what we tried to focus on was changing the culture. I would sit in meetings in the city and hear people talking about how they didn't feel respected when they went into those places. A lady said a culture of respect, and that locked into my brain. I went back and we tried to change the culture and help people see our neighbors, our clients who we call neighbors, not clients. Our focus was on changing the culture. A lot of that is in developing relationships because what I was hearing was people needed to help them come from where they are. I just knew from my own life that if you wanted to help me come from where I was, you were going to have to have a relationship with me, to be able to sit with me and share with me and listen and take it to heart. It mattered the things you said to me. The first year I was there, I was trying to build relationships and trying to bring down the walls that people build up around themselves because of where they are. We tried to show the love of Christ to people. Hugh: Russell, they said a couple magic words. Relationships. They said culture. Do you have some comments or questions for these gentlemen? Russell: Culture is more than just a cereal. It's supposed to be good. It's wonderful because what you are talking about, and I have dealt with it a lot, is basic human dignity. Sometimes it's hard for people to reach out for help because they are in a circumstance through no fault of their own, and it's important to treat people with that basic dignity. I commend you for making the effort to do that and connecting with these people that you're serving. I was also excited to hear that you are co-located with a number of different agencies. If you could, talk about some of the things you have been able to do with some of those other folks that are partnered with you to provide a more holistic service to those people you are serving. Gordy: We have a free clinic. We have tried to build relationships actually with all the different partners in the building. But we have a welcome center. Our welcome center is like a resource center, and I have set them up a satellite in our office. We are in the lower level of the building. Everything else is in the upper levels of our building. We have tried to establish ways to draw them down to where the neighbors are. But we have set a lady up in our office that can actually one-on-one with the neighbors. They are actually in the room waiting for hours at times. Some days I am there at 7:30, and there is a 2:00 distribution with people waiting already. We try to capture those morning hours where people are waiting to be able to shop and draw people in that can lead them to resources. The free clinic, we have an establishing relationship. There is a nurse practitioner in there that is going to come down and meet with the neighbors, announce what services are available, and what she has actually talked about is coming to the Wednesday night community meals and establishing relationships by sitting with the neighbors and letting them know what's available. We are trying to get flu shots. There are little things we talk about just from what we hear with the neighbors and try to see what needs they have. We have a relationship with the local bank and a lady that is vice president there who is coming in and teaching personal finance classes, basic computing classes, reading, math skills, different things that will help people be in a better position to get employment. Ray: There is a nutritionist that has been there several years that is teaching cooking classes. While the neighbors are waiting, she is up there showing them how to cook. We also have a counseling service there. This facility started even before everybody else moved in with a facility bin there. We met there for over seven years. As a result of that synergy that came around that facility and those people being there, you have 50-60 people there every day at lunchtime for an AA meeting. As some of those people were able to overcome their addiction, one of them started a telecommunications company that is in the building that provides low-cost Internet and phone within a one-and-a-half-mile radius of the building. Two others actually formed a counseling service using the peer group model that is now extremely successful. They have contracts with all of the local school systems and hospitals, so if a student gets caught with drugs and alcohol, instead of being suspended, they are sent there. They have nine counselors now. They have a lot of people whose lives have turned around as a result of that. The UMFS has foster care and adopting services for the entire region. They have contracts with all the schools as well. We have three churches that meet there. One on Saturday that is in a growth of the AA group. A lot of the people at the church service are across the spectrum. We have doctors, lawyers, all types of people there that through prescription drugs and other things, you read about it so much today, that were cured or came off the addiction that didn't feel comfortable in their own churches or places. They come there with brothers and sisters who shared the same war and are helping each other. After the worship service, they have a meal together. That's every Saturday night. We have a Sunday morning church, and then we have a Sunday afternoon church. They are now getting more involved in the mission. Most recently, we have had one of the larger churches move their church office into the building because they want to be close to the neighbors and be more involved in administering to the poor. We have a number of different things there. We are continuing to try to expand more services as we get there. It's continuing to grow. Hugh: Russell is one of the first people. SynerVision is the synergy of the common vision. I have trademarked that name. We like the word charity because nonprofit is a stupid word. You have to make some profit if you are going to do any good. We like the word charity a little better. It is a tax-exempt social benefit organization or social capital. Lots of ways to describe it. People think of nonprofit as a philosophy, not a tax classification. I don't hear any of that thinking from what I hear today. Russell and I have reinvented the consultant model. I went from being a consultant to an insultant to a resultant. Now we partner with them to help them find the way, so we are WayFinders. We created a whole different paradigm because 98% of the consultants out there give the rest of us a bad name. Maybe they give answers, maybe they don't. It's the stock answer. Our calling is to give people information, free or at a price they can afford, so they can improve their culture, their service, and therefore improve their funding. I wanted to talk about two other pieces here. We teach leaders that you don't push, you influence. I am hearing some of that in your dialogue. You have been steady. You have worked out these collaborations with these other organizations with some synergistic work. I am gathering you were the first one on board and the others have come on board since then. Because of the impact of your work, I want to shift, and a lot of charities do that, but I know since I've heard your stories. There is measurable, profound impact from the work you do. That is part of the position of influence. Your operational guidelines, your high standards of integrity, the value you give people: those are all really strong principles. Those are part of who you attract, both in the collaborations and in the funding side. If that influence piece makes some sense, you talked about improving the culture, redefining the culture. I'm not sure what word you used, but it was working on the culture. I watched you yesterday where you had most of those organizations represented at lunch. It was a lunch to share stories and be together. You were a servant leader there. You were handing out plates and checking on people. I don't know if you were official, but you were an unofficial hospitality person yesterday. It gave me some insights into your leadership, sir. Culture is so important; that's part of the work you do. Leadership is a culture. It's not just a person, it's the culture. What's been your journey of helping them—I like the word transform rather than change—transform their whole idea of culture? Give us a snapshot of what that journey has been like. Gordy: It goes back probably. For this journey, when I was seeing it, people don't really mean some of the things you see sometimes. It's just more the nature of people as a whole unfortunately. I was watching. I would hear certain things and watch certain responses. It just wasn't the outcome I was hoping for. I want more of a warm and comfortable- The way I have tried to sell it is the people we are serving don't really get experiences. If I want to take my kids to Disneyworld or my grandkids, we are going to go. They don't really get to do the same thing. We have tried to help people see that we want to create an experience where you look forward to coming back. I know it's just shopping to some people, but to our neighbors, when you see that they will come, some come at six in the morning. I have had people tell me- We start at eight, so I come around 7:30. There can be 10-15 people waiting. It just makes me understand the value. I know it's free groceries. But they get to come once a month. I would like over that month's gap for them to really look forward to it. We try to take everything, implement everything we can to make it an ice experience. We want to do it like the nice stores do, like Walmart. You want it to be. We need vests to say, “How can I help?” We want it to be clean, well-stocked, and with customer experience. We have to put it in the mindset that an average person would be thinking. When you walk through the grocery stores, what do you see? What is happening around you? Everything is neat and in order. The only difference is that we bring our pallets right through the front door. We set them right in the middle of our produce room and start picking through it to be able to distribute the food. It's harder to keep it clean. We don't have people come in the middle of the night to stock us to be ready for opening tomorrow. We have certain challenges that Walmart has mastered because of finances and the help they were able to bring in. if you think of it as creating a wonderful experience and not just feeding people- Hugh: I love it. It's the visual of people waiting in line for the new iPhone. They are excited. Gordy: It's hard because my family does what everyone else does when they want to do it. We have been very blessed. But I realize these folks don't. Hugh: It's hard to realize that. Russell, we were born into white privilege. It's not a disease, but there is a cure for it. I was in a room yesterday, and I said to Leigh Anne, “It's nice to be in a room where everybody doesn't look like me.” Because if everybody were to look like me, that would be scary. We had a cross-section of Lynchburg in that room. Age demographic, educational background, race, some of us better-looking than others, but not me. The culture thing is something that we work with charities and churches on because we have inherited a culture. We don't realize that people aren't responding to us because we are doing the things the same way. I started a workshop Saturday with church leaders, and I said, “Who knows the seven last words of a church?” Nobody knew. “We have never done it that way before.” I said a lot of us come to meetings with that written on our foreheads. How about stripping it off? Let's start with an open brain. You came in 18 months ago. Ray, what sort of transformation has happened during his tenure so far? Ray: Obviously his approach is very positive and very much like what we were all looking for. Our previous people took it more- In fact, he was a retired military person and was more for giving orders and this is the way we do it type of approach. That doesn't create the same level of respect. You have to have a heart that you want to share and relate to these people rather than treat them as something to go through the door. Gordy has brought the heart into it. As a result of his faith, he has ben able to share that heart and love with the people. That is something I strongly believe in and something I try to do. I grew up very poor, not white privilege. I relate to these people really well. It's all by the grace of God. It could be any of us. It's been wonderful to see Gordy there and the way he has transformed the people there. The other thing that has been such a huge benefit is the tremendous amount of volunteers we have. We have only a couple part-time people. Gordy is part-time. It takes at least 30 volunteers to run a distribution day. We have brought hundreds of volunteers in and hundreds of volunteer hours. If it wasn't for the volunteers, we couldn't survive. It's important for the volunteers to have a good experience as it is for the neighbors. If they don't appreciate and we don't appreciate them and what they do, they wouldn't be coming back. We have a tremendous amount of volunteers repeat on a continuous basis. Also, Wednesday nights, we have numerous groups that cook the food, serve the food, provide music devotions, and relate to the people. That is probably 30 different groups over the years. That creates an experience of love and a relationship that carries forward into the volunteers on Thursday and Saturday and Wednesdays. Hugh: This is what Gordy's brought to the table. We like to teach that culture is a reflection of the leader. We want to criticize other people and take the blame off of ourselves. I want to ask some stories. Russell, what questions are you hearing, and do you want to throw some questions on the table? Russell: What we are talking about is critically important. There is reasons why people want to support you. A nonprofit that is effective creates win-win-win scenarios: wins for the people who are working, wins for the people they serve, and wins for their supporters, whether they are giving time, talent, or treasure. Having the connection with people. When you go into a community, particularly if you look different, there is a bit of a level of suspicion you have to overcome. That has been my experience. People get to know you and see you as genuine. You go in and ask a lot of questions; you don't walk in with a lot of answers. People respond to that, and it's a constant dialogue. How can we make this better? How can we serve you best? What is something that we can do that we're not doing? These are all things to be critical. It's having these conversations. You have hundreds of volunteers. I am seeing people like Travis Smith, who has spread impact locally to 11 cities now. He has been successful at leveraging large numbers of volunteers. The question that I have is: What are you learning as you ask the people who volunteer for you why they keep coming back, why they enjoy serving, what makes them want to work with you? Gordy: That's a tough one to figure out. We do get responses and things from people. I haven't really done a lot of research on it as much as it seems almost a standard amongst, especially the students. I see the students come in, and they start, they don't know where to plug in. Some of them require hours and things like that, community service hours. You can start to see develop within them a heart for service. I think most of the young people nowadays really want to do something. They have something inside them that is stirring to give back. It's interesting because I know one of the local colleges, they get 20 hours they are required to serve in their community. Over and over, I get comments of, “I had to do it up until then. I want to do it now.” It's just something stirs within them to make them come back and want to do it. I think any of us, they will actually step outside of our comfort zone and go into these places and start to invest your time and energy, it's in us. Ray: All of us want to do things and please people. When we serve people, these people appreciate it and show their appreciation verbally, nonverbally, and so forth. Everything you do is appreciated. That warms people's hearts, and they want to continue to be able to help the people. It's all about being able to help and se that immediate impact and the smile on the face. That is what brings them back, and that is why if they get past that first hurdle and get comfortable, at least talk to people, then they can develop a dialogue. Particularly for young people, they don't have the boxes that older people do as it relates to race, culture, etc. They more quickly join in if you will than the older people. They have a harder struggle sometimes getting past that barrier. One of the big things that has been in Lynchburg the last five, six, seven years is Bridges over Poverty. We have gone through lots of training on that. Just a local pastor recently shared with me that he had the white privilege, if you will, to serve in larger churches. He really didn't know how to talk to the poor. He went into one of these Bridges programs and came back and tried some different things. All of a sudden, they responded, and all of a sudden, he comes back every week because he's retired and he sees how he can bring a smile to these people's faces and how they can all of a sudden smile rather than sit there frowning. Hugh: We bought this house recently. I said to the realtor and the mover, “You do this all the time, but we felt like we were your only clients. We move once in a great while. You move somebody every day. You sell a house every day.” These people, it's a unique experience for them. You're doing it all the time. What I am hearing about the culture it is a profound experience for everybody. You have created a win-win for everybody. Parts of white privilege don't have to do with money. Just because we're old white guys, there is a lot of dimensions to that. What I am hearing is you have evened the playing field in that people are people. I'd like to hear a couple of stories that you can share. We have some time here. Is there a story of impact? Either one of you can start. Is there a story that you'd like to share that warms your heart or really made a difference in somebody's life? Gordy: Recently, we had two ladies come in. it was an off-time in our schedule. They were homeless. The way it hit me was it was impactful because of the pieces that came together. We are sitting in the office. We were able to draw the lady from the welcome center. She was in there. We were able to see them get their housing that evening. By establishing the housing, we were able to establish their food. She was able to get them bus passes. All the pieces, we stood in the office, and we talked it all through. All the pieces in a matter of 15 minutes came together. We stood there, we all held hands together, prayed together. We said, “Wouldn't it be something if six months from now, we talked about, Remember when we all gathered here and figured out all the pieces?” In two weeks, they came in and both had jobs. It was powerful for them to come in and share and for us to remember all the different resources aligned at that moment. It's a powerful image of us remembering to draw the resources. You have to keep a pool of everybody together. They wanted me to understand all of our resources there and make sure what's happening and get everybody everything they need and understand that the other partners in our mission are in as well. We have come to find out they are in as well, and they were actually doing some things that I hadn't even realized. The counseling, I sat with one of them and said, “I really want to figure out what we can do together.” They're like, “Did you not realize Steve has been sending people up for a long time?” I'm like, “I did not realize.” Steve is the face you see first when you come into the office. Steve has been directing people to the resources they needed. Ray: There are so many stories that happen all the time. We had a guy come in the office, and we had been getting money from somebody that gave us $100 a month for a long time. We didn't know who it really was. One day, this guy comes through the door and says he didn't have a car or anything. He rode the bus. “One month, I didn't have the money to give you, and I got on the bus. Somebody got on with a bag of groceries, and I said they need it more than me.” He came back and gave us that $100. That guy has since come back numerous times, and he had Gordy go with him to the bank. The bank is sending us a check for $100 every month from his account. He had money when he first came to Lynchburg, and he has donated most of it. He has enough just to live. He really has the heart to help people. You look at him, and he has a long beard, long hair, but he has a heart. You never underestimate people. Don't judge a book by its cover. Hugh: That's a remarkable story. What do you think, Russ? Russell: I think that's great. That's probably typical of the work you're doing there. It's all about people. As you bring people in, they come through the front door, and it's almost like having them slide into your funnel as it were. When I worked for a tribe, people walked through the door. My programs were about jobs and business, but I was familiar with all of the other programs around me within the tribe. When somebody walked into my office, they could start anywhere in that office, and they would be walked around from one end to the other, or across the street to the health clinic. When they walked in, they left with what they needed. Nobody took time to say, “This is not quite my job.” They would take the time. As a program director, we take time to walk people from one office to the other and make sure they are getting what they need before we hand them off. It's a team effort. I looked at it as I worked for the community. I had a boss, I had the tribal chief and the tribal council, but I worked for the community. I am on display with everybody I serve. It is important for them to have satisfaction. It is important for people writing the checks to be satisfied. It is important to have good relations with the community. All of that is important. Everybody has to feel like they are winning here. I commend you for setting up that type of environment. Asking people what they like and why they serve is critical because once you find out what it is they like, you can do more of it. Even if they have to do a certain number of hours, they can do those hours with any nonprofit in Lynchburg, but they choose you. That is because of what you have been doing. That is your work on the culture. Find out a little bit more. I am in the frame of mind you can never ask too many questions to find out what makes people tick and to be there and to be that solution and have that heart of service that people need. As we are coming up on this holiday, this is a great time to remember a lot of these things we are grateful for. Are you going to see some people over the next few days? I know the holiday is coming. There are a lot of meals to be served. What is on the agenda for the rest of this week? And Giving Tuesday is coming up. What is on the agenda? What do folks need to know so they can help support the work you're doing because you serve a lot of people in need there? Hugh: We are recording this prior to Thanksgiving in 2017, to put in context for people listening to the podcast. We are approaching a holiday where a lot of us eat a lot of food and celebrate with family that other people don't have that option. What I have learned is when you are down and out, the society doesn't help you most of the time. You guys are giving a hand up. This is so encouraging. To relay Russ's question, what particular reflection do you have this season of the year? How do you interact with people that is different? Or is it different? Gordy: I don't see it as different. Hugh: A lot of places shut down. It's a trick question. Gordy: I don't understand the question, haha. Hugh: A lot of places shut down, Russell. Oh, it's a holiday. We are going to take time off. A lot of them close today and open again on Monday. Gordy: We have our Wednesday night dinner. It will be a sit-down, serve you at the table. Hugh: Who comes to that? Gordy: Everybody in the community is allowed to come. It's an open-door policy. We don't even know who will be there yet. But the expectation—I reached out today to get more tables and chairs because we are expecting a huge crowd. Hugh: Just to go back to the lineage and history of this that we heard, this was a very active large Methodist church. It dwindled down in membership, and it was no longer viable. The building is owned by the Methodist church. It reverted back to the district office who had to maintain it. Through the wisdom of the district superintendent, they started using it. It had a rebirth. Not just one church worships there, but there are at least three. Plus you have 13 different organizations. The ministry has sorted- It's not all under the umbrella of the church. They are still ministries, I think. Go ahead. Ray: It's a building that originally started in 1857 on that site. It has grown until now, where it is 26,000 square feet. Then it died, and it's now been reborn and rebirthed in even a greater sense. It's how the people use the facilities. What makes this site so unique is that it is in the very heart of the very poorest area. Two blocks away is the Salvation Army and the Center of Hope. Across the street is the public health department. Another block is a recreation center. There are ten Methodist churches within a two-mile radius of this. There is probably another 30 or 40 storefront churches and others around this. We have now partnered with another church, where a bus picks up people in the neighborhood. We give out so much food. We average 30 pounds of food for an individual in the family. A family of four will get over 100 pounds of food. The biggest problem they have is getting it home. They can't get on the bus with that much. They all have to get taxis and share. It is a tremendous undertaking to take 80,000 pounds and distribute it in over two days. This past week leading up to Thanksgiving, we had over 300 families that went through there. Hugh: Say those numbers again. You just slid those in here. How many pounds of food? Ray: 80,000 pounds a month. Hugh: 80,000 pounds of food per month. That other figure. Ray: This past week, we had the most families we've ever had of 320-something families on Thursday and Saturday, just those two days. Hugh: Over 300 families. That's a lot of people. Ray: Over 2,000 individuals. Hugh: Wow. On Saturday? Ray: Thursday and Saturday. Hugh: Thursday and Saturday. That is just one week in this month. The impact of your work is pretty huge. We find that helping charities define their impact in quantifiable terms helps them attract regular, recurring funding. Talk a bit about how you sustain this, how you continue to make sure there is operational money, food in place, and you pay the light bill. How do you attract the funding? How many sources does it come from? I'm sure there is some in-kind, but there is some cash in there, too, isn't there? Ray: We have been tracking the cash. It comes from different areas. We get from churches, we get from organizations, we get a lot from grants. A lot of individual donations. If you donate $10, it will feed a family of four for one month. That is based on the supply of 100 pounds of food. We are able to present it that way. A lot of people respond to that because they want to help. It's individuals, churches, organizations, and grants. Our biggest supporter by far is Walmart. Over that 80,000 pounds of food, a third of that comes from Walmart. We pick up from three Walmarts, a Little Caesars, a Panera Bread every week. Walmart supplies are tremendous. 30-40,000 pounds a month comes from Walmart. They have given us grants. We have had a $55,000 grant to widen the entrance so we can get food in easier. Last week, we got another $55,000 grant from Walmart to buy a refrigerated truck so we can keep the produce fresh longer and pick it up and keep it fresh. They give community service grants as well. The people here are just so supportive of what we do. This community is very supportive. Hugh: We qualify for that by showing the impact of your work. I want to point out to any businesspeople listening to this. You heard three brands mentioned here: Walmart, Panera, and Little Caesars. Those companies support you. You don't have to toot their horn about their brand. It's good for business to do this. This is the Walmart Foundation. It is philanthropic, but you have also had support from local stores, which is another source of funding. What I heard you say is you have individual and company donations. You have in-kind donations, which is the food. You do get grants, so that's three. We teach charities there is eight streams of revenue. We have money, which we call partner money. It comes from a rotary foundation or a church. They have designated funds for particular projects. It's not really a grant or a donation, so it's partnering. They have the funds and aggregate and take a bunch of churches or a groups like a rotary foundation. Each rotary has their own foundation. They can purpose special gifts. For charities to think about partnering with churches, synagogues, and other community organizations that want to give you a little bit of money, and you multiply it by 10 or 20 organizations, then you have some sustainable revenue to help you sustain your work. Are there other sources of revenue? I heard those. Ray: I think you hit most of them there. You just never know when the Lord is going to bring something. Recently, last year, we got a big donation from an individual we have never heard of before, from another city. They just happened to have a family member that heard about it, and the foundation wrote us a check. We had to find out where it came from. You just never know how the Lord is going to provide and how the money is going to come. You never know. Hugh: Russell, we are on the final wrap here. We are going to run over time. Any closing comments from you or a parting question? Russell: I'd like to thank you for the fine work that you're doing down there. You have some marvelous opportunities to leverage all the work you're doing. I could say the same thing about the business. Find out what it is they like that makes them support you so you can just keep doing more of that and bring in more people through the door and keep talking to people. Those relationships are important. Keep working on culture because that is where it starts. This is what draws all of these gifts. When you have the right culture, you create the type of energy field, and the synergy to bring all this stuff about. Keep up what you're doing. Blessings to you. Enjoy the holiday. I don't know if you planned anything special for Giving Tuesday, but that is an opportunity to reach out and talk to people. Go on your Facebook feed and talk about the work you're doing. Remind people that Giving Tuesday is an opportunity to support you. Hugh: I want you to think about a parting comment. There are people out there struggling who have not been able to get traction. What encouragement would you give them if they are thinking about starting or they have tried to start and haven't got traction? As we are signing off here, which one of you wants to give a challenge, tip, or thought for somebody who wants to up their game? Ray: Never give up. Just keep trying. Gordy: Love the people you are doing it for. Hugh: Love the people you are doing it for. And I heard with. You do all of that. I watched you in action. You can't hide. Thank you so much for sharing. Russell, we are three guys having coffee in my kitchen. This is a kickback. Russell: I am having coffee with you guys. It's great. I noticed that I am drinking more coffee than you guys. Hugh: We don't subscribe to whether it's half full or half empty because we think it's all refillable. Russell: It is. Hugh: Blessings to everyone. Thank you for great stories on this podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dreams, Teams, and Funding Themes Danna Olivo Shares Her Secrets of Success Danna Olivo is a Business Growth Sequencing Strategist and CEO of MarketAtomy, LLC. Her passion is working with small first stage entrepreneurs to ensure that they start out on the right foot and stay on the path to financial freedom. Known as the Business Birthing Specialist, Danna understands the intricacies involved in starting and running a successful business. Her efforts extend beyond the initial strategic planning process on into the implementation and monitoring phase. As an intricate component ingrained into her client's business structure, she works diligently to keep her client's accountable and on track to fulfilling their success goals. A graduate of the University of Central Florida's College of Business, Danna holds degrees in both Marketing and Management Information Systems (MIS). She brings more than 35 years of strategic planning experience in business, marketing and business development both nationally and internationally. Danna is not only a professional business growth strategist but has worked as an International Strategist within the country of Brazil, is a public speaker and #1 Best Selling Author on Amazon with “Success From The Heart” and “Journey To The Stage.” Her newest book “MarketAtomy: What To Expect When Expecting A Business” is now available through Amazon on Kindle. You can find out more about Danna Olivo at http://www.marketatomy.com   Here's the Transcript   Hugh Ballou: Greetings to the Nonprofit Exchange. We do this live every Tuesday at 2:00 EST. Today, Russ is with me as always. Russ, how are you today? Russell: Greetings. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Hugh: Russ is in Denver, and I'm in Virginia. I'm getting ready to move into a new home. Moving is one of my most favorite things. It's right below setting myself on fire or teaching middle school. It's in close competition, but I am moving this week. My life is full of excitement. Russ and I see each other at least once a week and talk in between. Thank you for being a faithful co-host in this series of interviews with thought leaders. We certainly have one that you and I both know. We are talking about some of the themes that we have talked about in the past, but we are on the verge of launching the third pillar of SynerVision Leadership Foundation. We have a pillar that supports clergy and all the religious organizations, like churches and synagogues, and the para-church organizations. And we have a leg that is all these social benefit community charities; we call them nonprofits, but it is the other tax-exempt type of organizations. Now the third leg is for early-stage entrepreneurs. There is a lot of struggle with early-stage nonprofits and businesses around the topic of getting your grounding and getting your funding. Today's guest is a dear friend of ours, Danna Olivo. Danna, welcome. Danna Olivo: Hi, Hugh. Hi, Russell. Hugh: Danna, you and I have known each other for a number of years. We participate in some activities together. You have actually spent a day at one of my live events. You were not at the one where Russ was a co-presenter, but you were at one where Shannon Gronich was a co-presenter. You're familiar with the methodology of SynerVision Leadership Foundation. I'm familiar in concept with the brilliant work you do. You came to me a couple weeks ago and said, “Hugh,” and you came with another friend of ours who is a funding expert, “let's build a system, a program for those people early-stage who are struggling.” We are talking about the future now. This is what's going to happen under the umbrella of SynerVision Leadership Foundation. Danna, welcome to the Nonprofit Exchange. Danna: Thank you, Hugh. I am real excited about this new program that we're talking about launching. You know as well as I do that there is a gap out in the marketplace that is just not being met. And we really need to touch on that and help them. We make it so easy for entrepreneurs to start a business here in the U.S, but we don't make it easy for them to grow a business in the United States. Hugh: They can start a business, but they lack the- We can teach them how to drive a car, but they need to put gas in it so it runs. That is the world of funding. Before we dig in, we are going to keep people in suspense for a minute. Before we dig into the topics for today, give our listeners some background about you. What's your superwoman power? What's brought you here? You could probably talk the whole podcast about your experiences. But capsule what's brought you here and your primary passion for what we're doing together. Danna: My company's name is MarketAtomy; it's marketing anatomy. I have had so many clients that were coming to me that were new entrepreneurs, and they had a good product or service they had started their business on. But what happened was they got into business and there were no customers coming through the door. They couldn't figure out how to bring those customers through the door. In an effort to teach them the infrastructure that needed to be in place around that product or service is where MarketAtomy was born. The way I do that is by explaining to them graphically through the human body that the heart of your business is your why. Why are your customers going to come to you? Why are your patrons going to visit you over the competition? The brain is your how. That is your structure. That is your systems, the methodologies, everything that runs the business. But in the human body, can the heart operate without the brain? And vice versa? No. You need both the heart and the brain in order to grow your business and bring those customers through the door by pushing your message out through the veins of the body to your market, which is the human body. It's a real simple concept. My vision for MarketAtomy is to teach this to every single entrepreneur out there wanting to start their business. Ultimately, make a dent in the number of failed businesses out there in the world. Hugh: I want to highlight what you're saying and move it into the nonprofit sector. We teach nonprofits (we're using the word because people understand it), we teach tax-exempt charities how to install business principles in their organization because it's truly a tax-exempt business. We have more rules from the IRS for how we manage money. Basically, we have to create profit to fund the work that we're doing. We need to attract those customers or stakeholders or donors or volunteers. There is not a whole lot of difference in how we attract those. How about you? Danna: No. there isn't. For the most part, you hear about nonprofits always trying to raise funds, and they are going to the for-profit corporations to help them through donations and things like that. What about the for-profit side? Is there a way, or there is a way, where they can rely on nonprofits that are going to help them build credibility in their company? Reach out and expand their market. There is a synergy there between the nonprofits and the for-profits by partnering, and that's what we call cause marketing. Hugh: Yeah, absolutely. I am going to use the words “business” and “charity” because it's simpler for my brain not to have so many “p” words in there. Danna: Business and charity works good with me. Hugh: I want to cut through the chatter and get down to the brass tack. You've done a brilliant thing like we've done a brilliant thing. We have put synergy and vision together and got SynerVision, which is the synergy of the common vision. You put market anatomy together, and that comes up with a new concept. Plus you can go get a URL nobody has. Danna: That's true. Got it. Done it. Hugh: I want to set the context for what we're going to talk about later. I want to delve into some of your expertise. People tell us they learn important things they can utilize day to day in their charities. Our primary listening audience are those people who are executive directors or clergy, and they are trying to make their way through all this stuff they don't understand. We want them to understand some business principles. People tell us if there is some very useful information. We have tens of thousands of people who view these videos and listen to the podcast. Knowing you, you will give us some nuggets for the interview. We are launching a program underneath SynerVision Leadership Foundation for early-stage entrepreneurs, whether they are running a business or a charity, to get that strategy and to have access to early-stage funding, which is a trap for a lot of people. They get stuck right there. We will talk about that later on in the interview. As we start this, I have SynerVision International, which is a business. I work with business leaders. I have SynerVision Leadership Foundation, which is a 501(c)3 charity. There has to be a clear line as far as how the cash flows from one to the other; there are strict rules. There is tax rules for everybody, but there is more strict rules with a charity. Russ knows about this. He has had years with the IRS. We attempt to stay out of prison and not get in trouble and pay penalties because we try to uphold those rules. They are there for a really good reason. We can attract funding that is philanthropic funding, but there are eight streams of revenue there. There are a lot of ways we can attract funding. You work with people in a business and a charity. Sometimes you have people that have both like me. You started talking a little bit about the two of those working together. What else would you like to share about how somebody could have an entity, two totally separate entities, two checking accounts, two different leaderships—you have to have a board with a charity. Just because you founded it doesn't mean you get to say anything. You have to have real clear principles because the board is in charge of governance and the funding piece, the disbursement, the financial accountability. If people have both, you advocate to people to have both. If so, how do you manage that? Danna: First of all, yes, whether you are a business or a charity, I think you should have a board of directors. On the business side, it could be an advisory board, depending on where you're going. Yes, you need somebody that is holding you accountable to what your culture is, what your vision is, what your mission is. It's the same thing on the charity side. If you have a nonprofit and a business, I would say it would be beneficial to have two different boards because there is two different mindsets going there. Hugh: Let's let the expert weigh in. Russ, we're getting in your territory here. Do you want to weigh in here? Russell: Good to see everyone. Having separate accountability structures is pretty critical because in essence you have different things that you're doing. One of the terms by the way that I have seen is lack of social profit entities. That might be better terminology to talk about what you're doing. Structurally, you need to keep things separate because if you get into a situation where your profit-making business has unrelated activity going on and the nonprofit is conceived as bringing in revenue from activity that is not related to its primary cause, you could create a taxable income situation. You don't want to do that. You definitely don't want to- The whole purpose of having a nonprofit is not paying tax. That is a big part of it. Danna: I think the other thing to keep in mind- The most critical thing to think about is whether you have both a nonprofit and a for-profit arm, there are two separate businesses. You have to operate them as two separate businesses. They have their own licenses. Everything is operated separately. For that reason, I would say, you do need two boards. Hugh: We talk about an arm and an arm, but really they are two distinctly different entities. What Russ was referring to is IRS has this thing called unrelated business income. If you are bringing in lots of money and it's not related to your mission, then that is really taxable income, no matter if it's a business or a charity. You could argue that I would rather pay tax on more money, but you want to keep your accounting really clean and keep really good records. There is some synergies between the two. There is lots of examples in the marketplace where people do business work here, but then they give away or have a greatly reduced price for those charities. For instance, Russ and I work with organizations through SynerVision Leadership Foundation either for free through opportunities or at a drastically reduced cost because that is the philanthropic calling for SynerVision. We offer people who can't afford it goods and services, and that is why we are tax-exempt. On the business side, I work with business leaders who jolly well have the income and should be paying for it. They get value for that. Let's talk about some of your background. What would you say are your areas of expertise? You have used the word “strategist” and “business plan.” We use business plans. Danna: I call it the life of hard knocks. Believe me. I've got my degrees, I've got this, I've got that, but I'm sorry. It's life. It's life experience that has taught me a great deal of what I know. It comes out in the way that I talk and the way that I teach. I don't teach at a level of a professor or anything like that. I am right there at the level of the entrepreneur, and I think that's what benefits me. I've had two failed businesses. I'll be up front. This is my third business, and it's a success. I'm glad. But we are still growing it. Through those two failed businesses, I learned very early on what I was missing, which is what I'm bringing to the table now. I did not have that business experience. Even though I was a marketer, I did not have that strategic experience on how to develop a strategy to take a product to market, to take a business to market. I did not have those. I just jumped right in, which is what a lot of business owners do. They have a good product or service. They jump into business, and before they know it, they have robbed themselves of their 401k, they have mortgaged their homes to the hilt, they have exhausted their savings, and now they are continuously putting money into a sinking ship, so to say, only because they don't have that knowledge base. They don't have the skills. Short of going back to school, which is what I did for four years and got my degrees, short of going back to school, they really have no other options. They have linda.com. They have other e-learning academies out there, but if you don't know where to start, if you don't know what questions to be asking, they're not going to help you. I am introducing the MarketAtomy e-learning environment at the end of this year, and it will have the actual structure just like going back to school. If you want to learn about doing a market analysis, you have to know who your customer is, who your competitors are in order to do it. They will have to go and make sure they understand that. That is what we are trying to do. Hugh: That is what we are going to do. Danna: Yes, exactly. Oh yes. We are, Hugh. Okay. I am so glad I have you in my corner now. Hugh: You got me cornered, didn't you say. You could say that same thing about people starting charities. I have met people that have exhausted all their money. I have one yesterday that put a lot of money into the charity because they believe in it. I put money into my charity. Danna: I've done it. Hugh: It's going the wrong way, and I'm not taking money out. I don't take a salary form SynerVision. It's a concept that I've rallied a lot of people around. We are moving into phase two of development, which is 2018 is going to be a substantial year for the work we are doing. What you don't yet know is that the gentleman on the other end of this call, the other host, has some good programs that will be valuable to you as well around funding. He is an expert in a number of areas. He is more than a pretty-looking guy; he is smart. Danna: That's great. I'm telling you, I need all the help. I will be the first one to tell you I have big, big visions, just like you, Hugh. But I can't implement them, and I need those people in my corner, which is why I reached out to you and Money Miners. It's why I reach out and surround myself with those experts to make my vision a reality. Hugh: Russ, did you capture that? Number one thing in leadership is to delegate, to bring people on your team. What do you think of that? Russell: I think that's the way to go. At least, that's what we have been telling people. We drink our own Kool-Aid. If we're not drinking the Kool-Aid, then we are not going to get anybody else to do it. Danna: My brain is too small to absorb everything, I'm sorry. Hugh: My vision to you is that you have a big brain and a big heart and lots of really good content. You have great passion for what you do. What we preach in SynerVision, and you just did it, too, is we can do more if we run together. Down in your neck of the woods there was a NASCAR race in Daytona. When they draft, they go faster, and they use less fuel. Both cars. Three cars. It's like a train. You can be much more efficient. We are creating our own draft here. You didn't know I was a redneck and a race fan. Danna: My daughter is a big redneck race fan. I hear it all. Hugh: That's me. We're creating this vortex of energy. Focusing on the road ahead. Talk about some of your programs that you already have that you offer people and how you are going to repurpose those for business and for charities. Danna: I mentioned the e-learning academy that we are developing. We are beta-launching at the end of December. That will fill that self-help avenue that needs to be filled. Then there is still do-it-with-you services because we are a firm believer that you do it with your business owners than for. They need to understand. There are two areas that I have found with the services that I offer where my clients struggle the most. One is clarity. Vision clarity, market clarity, all of that. I have introduced a five-stage clarification process. It's mind-mapping. I will actually take them and clarify all of the components and find those gaps that they are missing. The other area of focus that I have found is even more prevalent is the financing side and funding side. Hugh, you and I know from going to CEO Space there are a lot of business owners that go in thinking that they can just pull together their business plans and just go and present before investors. But what they don't realize is the amount of work that has to go into these packages. Not only that, but they also need to be answering the questions these investors ask. They are not putting themselves in the minds of the investors. That is the other side that we are helping them with by first educating them on the front end and getting their companies credit-worthy so that they can go for these larger dollars on the back end to help them grow. Hugh: That's really critical. You get your own house in shape. Russ, what are you hearing over there? What's brewing in your mind? Russell: What's brewing in my mind is getting that message out there of what value you are bringing, the problem you solve. You got to do it in the language of people who are writing the checks. It's language. If you don't have the right language or you are talking to the wrong people, this is a component that has been challenging over the years for me. I have found myself a lot of times talking to the wrong people. You really have to have tools in place to measure what you're doing. What people measure, and this is what makes social profit so maddening, because you do have dollars and cents, but there are other things that are important to people. It's finding out and having systems to go find out what's important to people so that you can deliver that. It's really asking questions and tapping into their own genius. A lot of these have genius under their own roof that they're not leveraging. That's another story with over- and under-functioning leaders. That's another path that we're not going to go down today. Danna: You're absolutely right. I know I'm preaching to the choir here. I spent six years in Albuquerque, and I was working in the children's department of Hoffmantown, one of the largest churches in the United States. Charles Lowry was the pastor there. Pastor Charles had a business side to the business as well, where he had a men's group, and he would travel the country and teach men entrepreneurs the concept of business in the Christian sense of the word. Where I came out of this is understanding that even in a church environment, it's a business. It needs to be run like a business. I got that from Hoffmantown. You have all of these smaller churches that crop up, and their memberships, their patrons are giving their dollars to these churches that don't have a procedure, a system in place. They are not being good stewards of the dollars that are being brought into the church. Those are the kind of things that we need to teach. Hugh: To be fair with our listeners, we are in concept stage with this. But we all see a huge importance. We are going to resources. Danna, this dovetails with what Russ and I have been working on with some of the other thought leaders you know in creating a portal with both live and virtual events. It's going to be initially under the umbrella of SynerVision Leadership Foundation, and we will go after some philanthropic funding for that. We're actually going to put our money where our mouth is basically. People may be listening to this podcast way into another year. If you're listening to this podcast in 2018, you will see this launch. If you go to synervisionleadership.org, there will certainly be a section on the site that talks about this collaborative entity. We have kicked around names. Let's leave that for later. We'll name it something special, but it will be a project right now. It's a tax-exempt project to empower early-stage thought leaders who really can't afford it. Danna, in the communities where we do the work, it's part of reemploying the work force. Reactivating the military, there are 49,000 homeless vets, and there are a whole lot in homes who are wandering around. There are people who have come out of prison and need a leg up. There are small churches and charities that don't have the vision you just talked about. Part of what we are going to have to do is narrow down our first target. There is plenty of work. No matter if we started in Orlando, Denver, or Virginia, it doesn't matter, we could have plenty of work if people were willing. Let's talk about that piece for a minute. I would like Russ to weigh in, too. Danna, when you see a charity or a small business and there is really a lot missing, what is the biggest barrier to getting that message across? Is it their own lack of self-awareness? What is the barrier for them not coming forward and being open to receiving the assistance that you offer? Danna: I will put into context. You and I met during CEO Space with a certain gentleman that I had put you in touch with. Great ideas. They always have great ideas, and their heart is there. But first of all, they approach it unprofessionally in the sense that they are not protecting themselves. This was the first thing I identified with this gentleman. He is already getting sponsorship dollars and things like that from the public and the community, but he's not protecting his organization. As those funds come in, they're not being funneled correctly or monitor correctly. The first thing I find out is they jump in without a plan for protecting or being good stewards of the dollars that are coming into the organization. I think the other thing is they jump in because they don't have the funding and they're wearing way too many hats, so the project never really gets off the ground because they're thinking they have to do it all themselves. This is in business; this isn't just nonprofits and charity work. They think they have to do it all themselves to save money, but in actuality, energy is money. If they are spending all their energy doing a whole crapload of little things, they're not getting anything done. They're not making money. They're not able to get what they need. I think the first thing that I would say that- it's a matter of we have to clarify. What is that vision? What is the strategy to reaching that end vision? At the same time, showing them that you have a huge responsibility as a charity, as a nonprofit, you have a huge responsibility because it's not just your money that you're using and that you have to hold accountable. You want to make sure that you are able to report back to your donors how you've managed their money. Hugh: In case of a grant, it's crucial. You won't get another grant. They might ask for the money back if you have not demonstrated the proper fiduciary oversight and good stewardship, as you put it, which is a really good term. Danna: That's why what you bring, Hugh, on the strategy side for nonprofits is just amazing. They really need this. There are so many people with such big hearts, but they don't know how to do this. Hugh: Russ, you heard it right here. I'm amazing. Russell: I have been trying to tell him that for quite a while. Now I'm glad he hasn't gone to that. Danna: We'll keep him grounded, but we can always lift him up. Russell: All of us behind the scenes know all about it. In looking at and addressing that question, there are a number of things that might prevent people from actually doing something different. Sometimes it's resource-based. Other times, it's people that I've come across that are doing things that have been in the leadership role. They look at things, and they're not comfortable getting outside of what they're used to doing. Maybe looking at what they need from a person side, from a human capital type. This is a big thing because when investors or funders or donors of any type write you a check, they're betting on your team, not necessarily just on you. If people are unable or don't have the right collaborative partners, or they don't have people that are willing to collaborate, they become starved for people to actually implement. Ideas are great, but it's in that implementation that people actually need support. They may not know they need that support, or they may not feel like they have a trusted source for that support. Danna: Exactly. One of the other things is, and I'm so glad I have you in my corner, Hugh, is I learned the other day: The word “foundation,” so many nonprofits will set up a foundation but they don't realize the legal implications of having a foundation and having the money from that foundation be designated to other charities rather than just their own. Hugh: In our case, it's in-kind services. A dollar goes to SynerVision, it goes to other charities in the form of in-kind support, like those of us on this call. It's money in a different form. Danna: That was just a lesson I learned this week. Hugh: Russ, the example that she used, without giving names, it's okay if he's listening. It's a funny story. A colleague of mine, we were talking about CEO Space. It's a business growth conference that all of us met at. Danna: A collaborative environment, yeah. Hugh: Teaching cooperative capitalism. We take it a step up in collaboration. We all know that it works. A friend of mine, Ed from there, we got with Ken Courtright and talked about… It was actually David. They've both been on this podcast. David and I got with Ken for some advice on critiquing a thing we were launching. Next thing I know, without names, he is talking about us on his podcast. He used Ed's name because Ed had some sage advice, as he always does. I'm honored when somebody says, This is a guy, and this is what they need, and this is our conversation. I knew it was me, but he protected my identity. The person you're talking about has a huge vision. They're bought in 100%. They have passion for it, and they're going for it, no matter what. It's a classic case of somebody getting the cart before the horse. They're jumping in and not having the systems in place. Russ, there are some dangers from the auditing side, from the tax side of not having the records and not having a board that manages the cash flow. Are there some dangers people need to look out for as we are early-stage putting good systems in place from your standpoint in your years working with the Internal Revenue Service? Russell: You definitely want to have good internal controls. How does money flow in and out? Who tracks the money? Who actually handles it? Who tracks it? The people that handle it and the people that are tracking it should be different. When you are talking about large amounts of money and large purchases, you need solid fiscal policies to determine how purchases are made. There are a lot of opportunities for funds to walk out of the door unbeknownst to the management if you don't have very stringent internal controls in place. Separation of duties, that's always a big one. If you're dealing with government monies, you need to be aware of different things that you need to do to comply, especially federal monies under the Office of Management and Budget. There are a lot of pitfalls you can fall into. Of course, we already talked about unrelated business revenue. There are endless places you could end up stepping on a landmine from a tax perspective because the code is so complicated. I think that with a charity, one thing that is often overlooked is whether or not you are registered to collect donations or what you're registered to collect. Are you registered in all places that you're actually going to receive funds? That's one that flies under the radar frequently. Hugh: Those are good words. Russ and I have seen this, and I'm sure you have seen that people think because they have a good product on the business side or really good intentions on the other side, money is going to jump their way in the bank. It doesn't happen that way. Danna: No, I'll tell you a perfect example. I was at a conference three weeks ago. We were in a mastermind session. We were talking about the financing side. When the question came up, two of the individuals, they were new entrepreneurs, said, “I'm incorporated. I don't need to use my personal credit because now I am protected under the veil of incorporation.” My explanation to them is: That is absolutely true. You are protected. But consider it this way. Your LLC or corporation that you set up is another individual. It's an individual that has absolutely no credit. You are wanting to launch your business and be able to get bank credit and financing and things like that. If you have no credit, chances are you're not going to get any financing. That's where you need to bring in your personal financing, your personal credit, to kick-start your business and then at a later date, you can take yourself off of that and everything else is put into the corporate veil. But you do need your personal credit, which is where we run into issues. Hugh: We want to be careful with charities. They don't want to put anything in there of theirs because you can't get it back out. We want to create a firewall there. But you speak a really good track to lay down here. We must have personal disciplines with our leadership, with our funding, and with our behaviors. If we are going to be effective leaders, we got to get our own house in order as well. Danna: That's exactly it. That's part of what we are going to be doing with this summit. Hugh: Great. This is part one of a two-part conversation. Part two will be early in 2018 that we will do a formal announcement with the tracks and the programs. We do see a need. What I will create is a forum of SynerVision, an information forum, where you and I will collaborate on the questions. People can come and weigh in on their top issues. If they are starting a small business or a religious institution or community charity or a cause-based organization, any of those tax-exempt, or membership organization, 501(c)6, if they are starting one of those entities, what do they think their biggest needs are? We will have people in the conversation. I'm envisioning—and I didn't check this out with you, but I am going to blurt it out anyway. I'm envisioning a combination of things. The online learning, but also some live webinars. I am also envisioning some group processes. I find that when I have people, especially at a place we talked about, CEO Space—Danna, you saw it and Russell, you saw it on the SynerVision Leadership Empowerment Symposium—when I am helping one person think through their issues, other people are listening, and everybody is learning from that example. There is group learning that we haven't talked about, but I think you and I have had similar experiences in that area. What are your thoughts on that? Danna: I definitely agree. Masterminding is what we're talking about here. When you think about it, it's definitely one of the hot topics right now. That is one of the best ways to learn from other successful thought leaders. I know that's how I've learned. We've got some mutual friends who are very big thought leaders, and they are holding their own masterminds. Don Ward is one of them. We can't help but learn from others. Hugh: Absolutely. Danna: We can't help but learn from others. Why reinvent the wheel and struggle if there are people out there willing to give us this help that we need? That is exactly what CEO Space is. You go there in a collaborative environment and you get the information you need. I just came off of Women's Prosperity Network, which is a nation-wide organization. This is another one that is very collaborative, what they call cooperative, I think. Women, more and more women are starting businesses. This is a very fast-moving market right now. Hugh: My wife and I took some time over the weekend and went down the route to Staunton in Virginia. It's a really well-kept downtown, both in character and architecture. People were downtown. Business after business was young, female entrepreneurs. I just rejoiced in that. Everyone was a niche, and it was creative, and there was passion behind it. We are in the women's era. It's time to leave the old white guys behind. We messed it up; it's time for a new era. Danna: It's amazing how many men have come in and joined the WPN, the Women's Prosperity Network, because they like that interaction with the women. They like that comradery. I grew up in the architectural/engineering/construction market. In that market, I spent 35 years. Everything was so closely held to the chest. Don't say this, don't say that. We don't want the competition to hear this. I just kept telling them, “Guys, get over it. They already know what's going on. Get over it. Don't be afraid. Just stay a step ahead of them.” Women just have a way of cooperating and helping and lifting each other up. If more and more people did that, we would be a lot farther along than where we are right now. Hugh: We can make up for lost time. I totally agree with you. Women are very collaborative. At this point in history of recording, it's time for the small business sector and the charity sector to set a new bar. We have conflict in the government and with football of all places, and people are divided over common issues where we ought to be united for those. We will not go into politics today. Danna: Thank you. Hugh: There is another channel and example that we are called to be. I want to do a Round Robin here. I want to start with Russ because we need to give the better-looking guy some attention, some airtime. Russ always has these great sound bites, but he has also got some really good contributions. When he speaks, people listen. Russ, two things. Do you have some comments about what Danna has brought up or questions for her? Then tell us about your next live event for your charity work and your program for funding that you have. First with Danna, and then talk about the two things that you have, or others you want to share. Russell: I think that everything is relationship-based. This is the thing that we are coming around to. It's all about relationships. The way that men operate, we're more linear in our thought process and more results-oriented. Women are more relationship-based. What we're finding out is that if you want to build partnerships and joint ventures, you are going to have people that resonate with you. If you're going to get people to collaborate with you in any project, it's all about relationships. You have to have good relationships. People aren't just looking for the fast buck, the quick transaction. They're not going there. That's not going to work for people. It's all about relationships. We really need to change that. The other thing is in looking at churches, I have been working with my own envisioning project. Whatever we're doing, the key is to raise our level of consciousness. This is what we're finding out with today's environment. We're shouting at each other. We're at a point in time where if we are going to succeed, it doesn't matter what area you're talking about. If you're talking about your spiritual or economic situation, your business, we have to raise our level of consciousness to be more effective, to help more people. That's my view on that. As for right now, I am working on some new material with a group called Algorithms for Success. I've done some training with them. We're actually strategizing on some of my online programs. I am working on different modulized programs for fundraising and board development. We're working on rolling out a series of things for 2018 as well as the book Four Steps to Building a High-Performance Nonprofit. I have been working on that for a while; I have not gotten all the interviews I want, but we are going to be launching that online program that I am in the process of revising. That is taking me through the fundamental steps of building a strategy. It's a 22-point strategy framework that Hugh and David Gruder actually developed a success map. As far as questions for you, what benefits do you think could be realized from cross-sector partnerships? What are the big wins you see businesses getting through this collaboration? What are some of the wins for the nonprofits as well? Danna: Wow. The reason I reached out to Hugh for this program that we're talking about is because one of the benefits is with the target market that I go after, small businesses that are generally under $500,000 annual revenue or less, a lot of times they can't afford my services. Much to the chagrin of my husband, I would love to give my services away. But his comment is, “Honey, I'm sorry, but we gotta make money. I don't want to be working at a j-o-b all my life.” It's two-sided. In an effort to find a way for them to be able to afford the services that they need, there is grant money out there. That's what we want to go after. I'm not familiar with nonprofits, and I know that I need a nonprofit. That's why I reached out to Hugh Ballou. I knew I needed a nonprofit leg to help on the sponsorship side so we could go for sponsorship dollars for these events we are doing, and also for the grant money to help those business owners that qualify to get the education and the resources that they need. That is one of the reasons where I see for-profits and nonprofits can coordinate. The other thing is by businesses partnering with nonprofits, you get that credibility factor. By building in that credibility factor, your clients look at a higher standard for you. Not necessarily at a higher standard, but they become advocates because they know you're doing good for the community. You're doing good for society, and they want to promote you because of that. So you get the credibility aspect. You get the market outreach. You get the dollars. There is so much value and benefit that comes from a business partnering with a nonprofit. You have to figure out how to make that work and not try and do it all yourself. Russell: That's critical. Hugh: Russ, you're so right. Let's capture that. What I find over and over again is we help small business owners, especially solopreneurs, learn how to do things and then try to bring in team members. With a charity, it's imperative that you start with a team. That's the biggest problem leaders have in the charity/church world. The leader wants to do it all, but really you must engage the board for governance, for fiduciary oversight, and for support, their arms and legs. Lots of really good stuff here. We are coming to the last stretch of our time here. Danna, we got a lot more to talk about. We need to do some heavy lifting. Right now, you are waiting for me to get a document back to you. I am starting to get a clearer vision of the potential. Our problem is going to be to scale it to what we can handle to begin with. I know the energy field here is really good. Russ, where do people go for your stuff that you talked about? Your book and your online program, your website. Where do people go to find that? Russell: For the four steps to building a high-performance nonprofit, you go to bit.ly/fourstepshpnpo. I will drop that in the chat box so that people can see it. If you'd like to have a talk with me, I do discovery sessions with folks. You can go to bit.ly/bookruss to get on my calendar, and we will have a discovery session about whatever concerns you. I am in the process of having people rebuild my website, so I'll have free offerings. I have a donor series and some board series things that people will be able to tap into once my website rebuild is done. I'm working on some other courses and writing articles. All of that stuff will be available to everyone out there. Hugh: I want to know when you sleep. Do you sleep? Russell: I sleep quite a bit, maybe more than I should. I'm finding as more time passes by, I sleep a little bit more. The real opportunity, I think, in this is to get people talking to one another. This thought crossed my mind. I was thinking of asking Danna: What is the high point, the one single thought that needs to be conveyed to people on both sides, for-profit and nonprofit? What would you say is the single thread that needs to run through their minds when they are debating about whether or not they should collaborate? Hugh: I'm going to let her think about that a minute. That's a great question. You took the words right out of my mouth. Danna, think about that for a minute. We need to think about profit in our charities. That is the gas that is going to help us fully achieve our mission and vision. Thenonprofitexchange.org is the place you can view this video a few hours after we stop here. I will put the links for Russell's website and Danna's website. You will already be on the SynerVision website when you go to thenonprofitexchange.org. That will take you to SynerVision for this Tuesday program. Danna, we are going to let you close us out with Russell's question that you have been pondering on. Your website is… Danna: Marketatomy.com. It is also being revised, so there may be a little bit of Greek in there right now. Just ignore it. Hugh: We have to stop here. Danna, will you leave that closing thought for us? Danna: Russell, correct me if I'm wrong. You sked me what is the one thing that should be considered when thinking about collaborating with a nonprofit or a for-profit. First, you need to be clear in your messaging. You need to be clear in what you want so that you can communicate it clearly, and then also synergy. For instance, me teaming with Hugh, he is a strategist. We have the same processes and things like that, so that creates that synergy. Does that answer your question? Russell: That does. Synergy is all about synergy and alignment. Danna: Alignment, yep. Hugh: That was my inspiration for combining vision and synergy. It's the synergy we get from the common vision, which is our trademark. Danna Olivo from Orlando, Florida, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your time. Russell, thank you for your friendship and support. Thank you both for being here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Who know doughnuts could be so helpful… On today’s episode Russell and his kids talk about why they like to go to Krispie Kreme doughnuts instead of some of the other doughnut shops. He also shares a story to relate why its good to show your customers behind the scenes of what you do. Here are some of the fun things you will hear in this episode: What it is about Krispie Kreme Doughnuts that stands out from their competitors. Why seeing how beer is made inspired a marketing guy to put it in their commercials. And what Russell does to give his customers a similar experience. So listen to Russell and his kids talk about this cool way to market your business. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Alright everybody, today we got a special episode. We just got done cleaning the church and then we went and got a prize for the kids. What was the prize we got guys? Kids: Krispie Kreme Donuts and the hats. Russell: Krispie Kreme Donuts, and the hats. We’re driving the new Funnel Hacker Jeep, which we have a camera mount in here. So now I can do Marketing In Your Car and Marketing Secrets while we’re driving and not have to worry about getting hit and dying. Kids: Marketing in Your Jeep. Russell: Marketing In the Jeep. I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet, if you haven’t go look on Snapchat or Facebook or whatever. It says Funnel Hacker on the side of it, it’s kind of fun. And we had Norah in here yesterday so that’s why Bowen’s sitting in Norah’s baby seat, because that’s the last seatbelt we had. So what should we tell those guys about today? We gotta tell them a marketing principle. So let’s do this, I want to talk to you about why you like going to Krispie Kreme versus the other place? Kids: Because they got good donuts. Russell: Because they got good donuts. Why else? Kids: It’s not very far away. Russell: Okay, it’s close proximity. Why else? Kids: We haven’t had breakfast. Russell: You haven’t had breakfast yet. Are they healthy? Kids: They have a good price. No, they’re not healthy. They have a good price, they’re not far away, and when you go in you see them make the donuts. Russell: Oh, this is the key. This is the key, Ellie, that I want to talk about. So when you go into Krispie Kreme they let you, say it loud so they can hear you. Aiden said it too. So there’s a glass window and you can actually watch them make the donuts. The donuts come through on a conveyer belt, you see the frosting put on them, you see them dunk under the thing. First the dough right, drops them into the cooker thing that cooks them, then the frosting comes on top and they put the sprinkles. You get to watch the process. Kids: They sometimes, rarely, give you free samples. Russell: And sometimes they give you free samples for hanging out. Alright so here’s the marketing lesson for all of you who are listening today. So Krispie Kreme does a really cool thing to make kids want to go to Krispie Kreme versus DK Donuts, Dunkin Donuts, all the donut places. Kids: Dunkin Donuts is DK Donuts. Russell: No DK is a small brand, Dunkin is a huge chain. Anyway, what Krispie Kreme does is allow you to watch the process, which is really interesting. Because my guess is most donut shops have the same process, yet……..You guys we gotta stay on point for the show. They’re right, DK has bunch of other options, sizes and varieties and Krispie Kremes are all the same thing. But the moral of this is that they let you watch the process of how it works. I know I’m going to forget the story because I’m in the car with four kids going crazy. I’m going to forget it right now, but the message I know all my old school marketing buddies are making fun of me because I can’t remember the name and people or which book it was from. But there was a guy, who was actually a beer company and they were selling beer and this marketing guy came in to, I can’t remember now, this is blasphemy. I can’t remember the name of it. I just hit a squirrel. I missed it. A squirrel went underneath the car. That was close. Anyway, there was a marketing dude, he comes into the beer company and he’s trying to figure out the hook and angle and big idea of why everyone should give them money versus the other beer companies. And the marketing guy comes in and wants to see the process and how it all works and he goes in and watches these guys. He sees how they make the beer, I don’t know, I’m not a beer drinker. I’ve never drank so I have no idea how it actually works. But they showed how they made it. And the marketing guy was so fascinated. They’re like, “That’s how everybody makes beer.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but nobody else has seen this. Nobody else even knows this is how it all works. So I want to show that process.” So he made a commercial and he actually showed the process of them making the beer and that became this huge campaign that blew up the company. So Krispie Kreme is the same way, they show the process. There’s a reason I do Funnel Friday every Friday, because I’m showing the process. Kids:  You didn’t do it this Friday. Russell: I didn’t do it this Friday. Good point. And Funnel Hacker TV and all these things, why am I doing that? Because I’m showing the process, I’m letting people see how I do it, how I consume the product. And the more they do, the more they see me drinking my own Kool Aid, the more likely they are to also drink said Kool Aid. So the moral of the story from this Krispie Kreme episode for you guys is to let your audience see the process of how you do whatever you do. We are in the reality show era of the world and your audience wants to view what’s happening. That’s why I’m showing this right now, me and my beard in my car with my kids in their Krispie Kreme hats, and being annoyed at me. Bowen was telling me, “Your mustache is ugly dad, but your beard is cool.” He wants me to shave this. Dallin: You have a mustache. Russell: It’s kind of weird huh. I need to shave. Dallin: I don’t know everything, never mind. Aiden: I’m free ladies. Russell: Aiden just said, “I’m free ladies.” You’re the coolest! Dallin: What did he say? Russell: He said, “I’m free ladies.” And jumped out of the car. Dallin: You need to send this to me. Russell: That was amazing. I love Aiden, that our little six year old, if you’re listening and not watching. If you’re watching on Marketingsecrets.com you just saw Aiden in his Krispie Kreme hat tell you….that was hilarious. Dallin: Send this to me please. Russell: The moral of the story, the reason why I’m doing this with my hair messed up and my beard, with my kids and our donuts…. Ellie: You have a beard? Russell: Isn’t it sweet? You want to feel it, it’s really scruffy. It kind of hurts, I gotta shave it. The reason I’m showing you this stuff behind the scenes because I’m showing you my life. I’m showing you how we do what we do and that’s what draws people. If you read Expert Secrets, you know the goal is to draw people into you and your personality and all those kind of things. So draw them in you guys. Do it, open up your life a little. I know it’s scary sometimes. That’s what Instagram is for, your stories. Facebook Lives, podcasts, etc. Dallin: The real moral of the story is that Aiden is a ladies’ man. Russell: Aiden is the ladies man. Anyway, that’s the moral of today’s story. Does that sound good to you guys? With that said, thanks so much for tuning into marketing Secrets. If you have not read the Expert Secrets book go to expertsecrets.com. You should go there and read it because this is just one of those secrets that’s going to help you blow up your message. Dallin: And if you haven’t read the first book too, read it. Russell: What’s the first book called? Dallin: Dot, I forgot what it’s called. Russell: You’re close, Dotcom… Dallin: Dotcom Secrets? Russell: Yes, Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets. They should read them both right? Dallin: Yeah. Russell: Which one’s your favorite. Dallin: I didn’t read it. Russell: Anyway, appreciate you guys, thanks for listening and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Who know doughnuts could be so helpful… On today’s episode Russell and his kids talk about why they like to go to Krispie Kreme doughnuts instead of some of the other doughnut shops. He also shares a story to relate why its good to show your customers behind the scenes of what you do. Here are some of the fun things you will hear in this episode: What it is about Krispie Kreme Doughnuts that stands out from their competitors. Why seeing how beer is made inspired a marketing guy to put it in their commercials. And what Russell does to give his customers a similar experience. So listen to Russell and his kids talk about this cool way to market your business. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Alright everybody, today we got a special episode. We just got done cleaning the church and then we went and got a prize for the kids. What was the prize we got guys? Kids: Krispie Kreme Donuts and the hats. Russell: Krispie Kreme Donuts, and the hats. We’re driving the new Funnel Hacker Jeep, which we have a camera mount in here. So now I can do Marketing In Your Car and Marketing Secrets while we’re driving and not have to worry about getting hit and dying. Kids: Marketing in Your Jeep. Russell: Marketing In the Jeep. I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet, if you haven’t go look on Snapchat or Facebook or whatever. It says Funnel Hacker on the side of it, it’s kind of fun. And we had Norah in here yesterday so that’s why Bowen’s sitting in Norah’s baby seat, because that’s the last seatbelt we had. So what should we tell those guys about today? We gotta tell them a marketing principle. So let’s do this, I want to talk to you about why you like going to Krispie Kreme versus the other place? Kids: Because they got good donuts. Russell: Because they got good donuts. Why else? Kids: It’s not very far away. Russell: Okay, it’s close proximity. Why else? Kids: We haven’t had breakfast. Russell: You haven’t had breakfast yet. Are they healthy? Kids: They have a good price. No, they’re not healthy. They have a good price, they’re not far away, and when you go in you see them make the donuts. Russell: Oh, this is the key. This is the key, Ellie, that I want to talk about. So when you go into Krispie Kreme they let you, say it loud so they can hear you. Aiden said it too. So there’s a glass window and you can actually watch them make the donuts. The donuts come through on a conveyer belt, you see the frosting put on them, you see them dunk under the thing. First the dough right, drops them into the cooker thing that cooks them, then the frosting comes on top and they put the sprinkles. You get to watch the process. Kids: They sometimes, rarely, give you free samples. Russell: And sometimes they give you free samples for hanging out. Alright so here’s the marketing lesson for all of you who are listening today. So Krispie Kreme does a really cool thing to make kids want to go to Krispie Kreme versus DK Donuts, Dunkin Donuts, all the donut places. Kids: Dunkin Donuts is DK Donuts. Russell: No DK is a small brand, Dunkin is a huge chain. Anyway, what Krispie Kreme does is allow you to watch the process, which is really interesting. Because my guess is most donut shops have the same process, yet……..You guys we gotta stay on point for the show. They’re right, DK has bunch of other options, sizes and varieties and Krispie Kremes are all the same thing. But the moral of this is that they let you watch the process of how it works. I know I’m going to forget the story because I’m in the car with four kids going crazy. I’m going to forget it right now, but the message I know all my old school marketing buddies are making fun of me because I can’t remember the name and people or which book it was from. But there was a guy, who was actually a beer company and they were selling beer and this marketing guy came in to, I can’t remember now, this is blasphemy. I can’t remember the name of it. I just hit a squirrel. I missed it. A squirrel went underneath the car. That was close. Anyway, there was a marketing dude, he comes into the beer company and he’s trying to figure out the hook and angle and big idea of why everyone should give them money versus the other beer companies. And the marketing guy comes in and wants to see the process and how it all works and he goes in and watches these guys. He sees how they make the beer, I don’t know, I’m not a beer drinker. I’ve never drank so I have no idea how it actually works. But they showed how they made it. And the marketing guy was so fascinated. They’re like, “That’s how everybody makes beer.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but nobody else has seen this. Nobody else even knows this is how it all works. So I want to show that process.” So he made a commercial and he actually showed the process of them making the beer and that became this huge campaign that blew up the company. So Krispie Kreme is the same way, they show the process. There’s a reason I do Funnel Friday every Friday, because I’m showing the process. Kids:  You didn’t do it this Friday. Russell: I didn’t do it this Friday. Good point. And Funnel Hacker TV and all these things, why am I doing that? Because I’m showing the process, I’m letting people see how I do it, how I consume the product. And the more they do, the more they see me drinking my own Kool Aid, the more likely they are to also drink said Kool Aid. So the moral of the story from this Krispie Kreme episode for you guys is to let your audience see the process of how you do whatever you do. We are in the reality show era of the world and your audience wants to view what’s happening. That’s why I’m showing this right now, me and my beard in my car with my kids in their Krispie Kreme hats, and being annoyed at me. Bowen was telling me, “Your mustache is ugly dad, but your beard is cool.” He wants me to shave this. Dallin: You have a mustache. Russell: It’s kind of weird huh. I need to shave. Dallin: I don’t know everything, never mind. Aiden: I’m free ladies. Russell: Aiden just said, “I’m free ladies.” You’re the coolest! Dallin: What did he say? Russell: He said, “I’m free ladies.” And jumped out of the car. Dallin: You need to send this to me. Russell: That was amazing. I love Aiden, that our little six year old, if you’re listening and not watching. If you’re watching on Marketingsecrets.com you just saw Aiden in his Krispie Kreme hat tell you….that was hilarious. Dallin: Send this to me please. Russell: The moral of the story, the reason why I’m doing this with my hair messed up and my beard, with my kids and our donuts…. Ellie: You have a beard? Russell: Isn’t it sweet? You want to feel it, it’s really scruffy. It kind of hurts, I gotta shave it. The reason I’m showing you this stuff behind the scenes because I’m showing you my life. I’m showing you how we do what we do and that’s what draws people. If you read Expert Secrets, you know the goal is to draw people into you and your personality and all those kind of things. So draw them in you guys. Do it, open up your life a little. I know it’s scary sometimes. That’s what Instagram is for, your stories. Facebook Lives, podcasts, etc. Dallin: The real moral of the story is that Aiden is a ladies’ man. Russell: Aiden is the ladies man. Anyway, that’s the moral of today’s story. Does that sound good to you guys? With that said, thanks so much for tuning into marketing Secrets. If you have not read the Expert Secrets book go to expertsecrets.com. You should go there and read it because this is just one of those secrets that’s going to help you blow up your message. Dallin: And if you haven’t read the first book too, read it. Russell: What’s the first book called? Dallin: Dot, I forgot what it’s called. Russell: You’re close, Dotcom… Dallin: Dotcom Secrets? Russell: Yes, Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets. They should read them both right? Dallin: Yeah. Russell: Which one’s your favorite. Dallin: I didn’t read it. Russell: Anyway, appreciate you guys, thanks for listening and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

A powerful tool to use in your storytelling. On today’s special Christmas, hot tub edition of Marketing In Your Car, Russell and his son Dallin talk about contrast and why it makes life and business better. Here are some fun things you will hear in this episode: Why the contrast of being in 102 degree hot tub makes the freezing cold temperature outside more fun. Why we should look for contrast in all areas of life including food, relationships, and business. And what Russell’s Christmas tradition involving Marshmallow Matey’s is. So listen below to hear Russell and Dallin’s thoughts on why contrast in your life makes it more interesting. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson, welcome to Marketing In Your Hot Tub. It is actually Christmas night and I’m in the hot tub right now. We just had all the kids in here, but all of them have left except for Dallin is the last remaining hot tuber, how you doing bud? Dallin: Good. Russell: So Dallin, if you guys saw Funnel Friday’s this week, was on Funnel Fridays and he actually built a funnel. What was the funnel about that you built? Dallin: Snow balls. Rocks snow balls. Russell: Yeah, Jim Edwards built a script to throw snowballs with putting rocks in the snowballs, evil snowballs huh? Dallin: Yeah, evil. You don’t want to mess with it. Russell: But it was pretty good right? You built the funnel in about 15 minutes. Dallin: Yeah, it was supposed to be 30 but I got under pressure. Russell: Normally people get 30 minutes but I gave Dallin 15 because I knew he could do it.  And he did, the funnel was amazing. It was pretty good. Dallin: I’m really good at it. Russell: So if any of you guys are wondering or want to see that, go to Funnelfridays.com and look at the Christmas special and you’ll meet most of my kids, were on that episodes except I don’t think Norah came in. Dallin: Yeah, but Bowen didn’t come in. Russell: Oh yeah, Bowen didn’t come but most of my kids are on there, so if you want to meet them go to funnelfridays.com. But tonight I have a really special message. So that’s what I wanted to talk to you guys about today. The topic I’m talking about is a thing called contrast. So I’m telling you this while we are sitting in the hot tub, it’s 7:54 pm Christmas night. We had a great Christmas day today and now we’re outside and it’s dark and cold, there’s snow, there’s about ten inches of snow. In fact, yesterday we were out in….we bought this four wheeler rhino thing. Dallin: That’s awesome. It’s like a snow thing that picks up snow. Russell: Yeah, it has a snow plow on the front of it, and we hook tubes to the back and pulled the kids around the yard for….it was really fun. Dallin: Now I know how to drive a car. Russell: What? Don’t talk about that. So it’s really, really cold and then we jumped in the hot tub and it’s like 102 degrees and it’s really hot. So the kids, would be getting in the hot tub and then they’d jump out into the snow and do snow angels and they’re screaming because it’s so cold and they dive back in and they’re screaming because it’s so hot. And back and forth and back and forth. And what’s cool if you think about that, what’s making this experience really fun is the contrast. And I started thinking about other things where contrast is the key. And I really think that happiness in life is tied to contrast. We had a church Christmas party and they decided to have Collette and I be in charge of it. So we had the chance to throw a party for 500 people and one of the ideas that came out of it, one of the guys on our committee, he had an idea. He’s like, “We should do a hot chocolate bar.” And I was like, “Oh that would be awesome.” So we had this huge hot chocolate bar, we boiled I don’t know, thirty gallons of hot chocolate. Dallin: With a lot of good candy. Russell: We had tons of toppings like York Peppermint patties, cinnamon bears, marshmallows… Dallin: And then my favorite flavor ran out right when they came in. Russell: So we had a whole bunch of stuff, and the point of this story, we had a huge hot chocolate bar, which was good, but what made it great was the contrast. We had an ice cream scooper scooping a bunch of ice cream into the hot chocolate. So we have this hot, hot chocolate with cold ice cream and the contrast is what made it magic. You go like that with most foods. If you go to a restaurant and you get sweet and sour sauce, you get sweet and sour is the contrast, that’s why it’s interesting. A lot of foods are that way. They have two…..for Christmas somebody may have sent me a bag of this and may have eaten the whole thing by myself. It was a bag of chocolate covered pretzels. The chocolate is sweet and the pretzels are salty. So it’s salty, sweet and the contrast is what made it interesting. Dallin: Dad, not cool to tell that in front of your kid. Russell: You want to eat it now? But you think about most parts of life, the relationships I have with people that are the most fun are not where they’re like me. I do have a lot of fun with a lot of entrepreneurs that are just like me, but even within that there’s a lot of contrast. There’s contrast within my family, contrast within my beliefs, contrast within ideas. And that’s what makes things interesting. Is the contrast. From food, from relationships, from all these kind of things. What I want to talk about today, a lot of people probably don’t know this, but it’s also the key to good story telling. Dallin: And cars, and hot tubs. Russell: To hot tubs and cars? It’s the key to good story telling, it’s the key to good selling. Dallin: That’s compare and contrast. Boom. Russell: Okay, boom. Dallin’s comparing contrasted. He compared a car and a hot tub. Did you contrast them? Dallin: No, not really. Russell: Okay, so let me explain this. So when telling a story it’s the contrast that makes the story interesting. So from a higher level view it’s like, you tell a story, “first I was broke, then I was rich.” That was the contrast. “first I was fat, then I got skinny. First I was sad, then I became happy.” That contrast is what makes the story interesting. That’s from an overarching story level. That’s kind of the arch that people normally go on. Dallin: It’s like with the cereal I had this morning too. Russell: Dallin wants to throw things completely off topic. Okay Dallin, let me finish this story and then you can tell about cereal okay? So then it’s also from a macro level, the micro level is the same thing when you’re telling stories. You get down to the actual pieces of the story, it’s also the contrast. You dig down and as you’re telling the details, the contrast in the details is what’s interesting as well. So it’s like, right now if I were telling the story, we’re sitting in the hot tub and part of our body was so hot because it’s 102, 103 degrees. It’s really warm, but my head and neck is above water and when the wind hits you it’s bitter cold. And it cuts you, it cuts you down even into the water because it’s so cold, but then the water is so warm that it pushes that heat back up. So I’m telling the contrast of the cold and the hot, which makes it intriguing, makes it interesting. So when you’re describing each of the individual pieces of the story there’s contrast in all of them. You’re writing emails, there should be contrast in your emails. As you’re talking about things, “I was this and I became this. I felt this, but then this happened.” There’s a scripture that all my Mormon friends would now about where Lehi in the beginning of the Book of Mormon, he talks about how there’s got to be opposite in all things. If it wasn’t for the dark you wouldn’t know ….if it wasn’t for evil you wouldn’t know good. There’s a reason why there’s contrast. Without sadness you can’t have happiness. Without that contrast you can’t know happiness until you’ve had sadness. You can’t know joy until you’ve had pain. You can’t do what’s right unless you know what’s wrong. Dallin: Wrong. Russsell: Yeah, Dallin’s getting it. Hopefully everyone’s catching on at the same time. But it’s that contrast in all things in life. That’s what makes life interesting, is that contrast. Dallin: Sad, happy. Bad, good. Loving it, hating it. Russell: What other contrasts you got? Dallin:  Ellie and school. Russell: Ellie and school? Ellie’s is his sister, and school? Okay. Dallin: They’re really far contrasts. Russell: Ellie and school are contrasts. But you think about it you guys. It’s interesting because that’s the key. Depends on how you look at it. If you look at it like, I’m going to eat something, let me make some contrasts. I’m going to tell a story, I’m going to sell something. I’m going to write an email to… Dallin: Billy Bob Joe. Russell: What? Dallin: Billy Bob Joe. Russell: Who’s Billy Bob Joe? Dallin: You’re sending an email to Billy Bob Joe. Russell: Okay…..Alright, that makes no sense, but whatever. So I hope that, amongst the random thoughts, I hope you guys got some value from tonight. From the contrast of sitting in the hot tub while the cold is on my, blowing against my skin and kind of freezing up top. Dallin: That’s why it’s cold, hot tub. Car, contrast. Russell: Yes, alright Dal, you want to tell the story from breakfast this morning? Dallin: Yeah, sure. Russell: Alright, tell it loud so you can all hear. Dallin: So our dad took a huge bowl, one that we use to make cookies and stuff. Russell: A big salad bowl. Dallin: Yeah. For Christmas he got a big Lucky Charm thing… Russell: it was Marshmallow Matey’s. It’s the generic Malt-O-Meal knock off version of Lucky Charms. Speaking of, real quick of Lucky Charms, the reason why it’s so good is the contrast. There’s the oats that are not sweet and the marshmallows that are sweet, that’s why it’s so good. Dallin: Yeah, but our dad dumped it all in and filled the whole bowl up, which he didn’t use a normal cereal bowl. Russell: The whole salad bowl of Marshmallow Matey’s. Dallin: And he ate all the oats first and then he sugared up with all the marshmallows. Russell: So this is my brothers and sisters have done our whole lives. So Santa brings us sugar cereal, we always used to get Marshmallow Matey’s because it’s twice the size of Lucky Charms, because you get a big old Marshmallow Matey’s bag.  So I would fill a salad bowl full. Dallin:  I wish I did it this morning too. Russell:  You can do it, I got leftovers. Dallin:  Tomorrow morning I’m going to use a big salad bowl. Russell: And we do it so the rule is you can’t eat a single marshmallow until all the oats are gone. Dallin: Unless we accidently eat one. Russell: No, if you accidently, you have to spit it back out. Dallin: What the…? Russell: Yep. Dallin: But what if you don’t know it’s in there. Russell: Yeah, I guess you don’t know. But you should know. You have to be really careful, it take’s probably 20 or 30 minutes. I Snapchatted me doing it. But then I ate the whole thing, so when you’re done with it though, you’ve got this whole bowl of marshmallows and the marshmallows are oozing into the milk. So the milk’s like syrup as well. So at the end you drink the marshmallow syrup milk and it’s the reward for sacrificing 30 minutes of your life to something that’s completely ridiculous. Dallin: Oh yeah, so tell them about the mission companion thing. Russell: So I went on a mission for the Mormon church, I was in New Jersey and Santa Claus knew how to get Marshmallow Matey’s up to New Jersey. So Christmas morning I pull the huge salad bowl out, it’s tradition you have to do it. So I was eating it and it took like an hour…. Dallin’s dying over here. My companion, after a half an hour is like, “Elder Brunson, you gotta stop. I can’t handle the noise of you eating every little piece of cereal. Get out of this room.” Poor guy. He probably hates me for that. Ooh, Dallin. Feel my hair it’s frozen hard as a rock. Dallin: yeah, that’s why I was grabbing it. Russell: So I have one more story for you guys about contrast. Actually it has nothing to do with contrast, but it’s a cool story. When I was a kid we went on a family reunion up somewhere for winter time and it was like this. We went to a hot tub, and we walked from the hot tub back to our condo and it was freezing. And my cousin, Juliana, her hair froze. And she grabbed it, bent it and it snapped her hair off, broke her hair. Dallin: And she didn’t even feel a thing. Russell: Which is crazy. So I wonder if I could give myself a haircut right now? Dallin: Oh, hi Norah. Or Aiden. Russell: Oh, there’s the kids. Oh man. I think we’re going to have to end the hot tub party while everyone else is having fun inside without us. Aiden is in his ninja turtle outfit, driving Norah’s new scooter. Anyway, appreciate you guys for listening. Hopefully you got some value out of today. Remember contrast in all things. It’s the spice of life, makes it interesting, builds…. Dallin: And funniness. Russell: And funniness, it builds your relationships. Dallin: And Billy Bob Joe. Russell: and Billy Bob Joe.  Helps you sell things. Dallin: And cars. Russell: Helps you eat better. Dallin: And hot tubs. And Lucky Charms. Russell: Alright, we’re going to go. Peace out everybody, thanks so much for everything. Talk to you soon. Dallin: And microphones. Russell: What? Bye. Dallin: And everything. And snow. And Norah.