Podcasts about right why

Today on What's Right:Why does California allow chaos?Democrats still playing Bagdad Bob with the riotsWhy Biden didn't pick Karen Bass for VPWashington Examiner Defense Reporter Mike Brest joins usWhat are Trump's authorities to deploy troops in CaliforniaThanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave us a 5-star review.Have personal injury questions? Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sam & Ash Injury Law⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get free answers 24/7.Connect with us on our socials:TWITTERSam ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightSam⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FACEBOOKWhat's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠INSTAGRAMWhat's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠EMAILSam sam@whatsrightshow.comProducer Robbie robbie@whatsrightshow.comTo request a transcript of this episode, email ⁠⁠marketing@samandashlaw.com

Today on What's Right:Why are ICE agents wearing masksCleaning up immigrationCorey Booker vs Ted Cruz on Leftist violenceParty of the mentally illLeftism and self-esteemThanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave us a 5-star review.Have personal injury questions? Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sam & Ash Injury Law⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get free answers 24/7.Connect with us on our socials:TWITTERSam ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightSam⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FACEBOOKWhat's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠INSTAGRAMWhat's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠EMAILSam sam@whatsrightshow.comProducer Robbie robbie@whatsrightshow.comTo request a transcript of this episode, email ⁠⁠marketing@samandashlaw.com

Today on What's Right: Why did Daniel Cameron lose to a Democrat incumbent governor in deep-red Kentucky How should Republicans handle the abortion issue? Is Trump helping or hurting candidates? How to handle hecklers The elections say very little about Trump or Biden Hillary Clinton visits the ladies of The View Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Have personal injury questions? Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sam & Ash Injury Law⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get free answers 24/7. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightSam⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ FACEBOOK What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ To request a transcript of this episode, email ⁠⁠marketing@samandashlaw.com

When Things go Right & Why it Happens

Today on What's Right: Why would a teenager steal a car and intentionally hit a stranger? The anti-racism scam 93-year-old economist Thomas Sowell gives an interview on his new book Social Justice Fallacies What the hell happened to the Ron DeSantis campaign? We need to be serious about reorganizing the government DeSantis vs Trump on abortion WH Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre stonewalls on the worsening border crisis India and Canada in serious row Newsom says he's all-in for a Biden/Kamala ticket Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Have personal injury questions? Visit ⁠⁠Sam & Ash Injury Law⁠⁠ to get free answers 24/7. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam ⁠⁠@WhatsRightSam⁠⁠ What's Right Show ⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠ FACEBOOK What's Right Show ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/⁠⁠ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show ⁠⁠@WhatsRightShow⁠⁠ To request a transcript of this episode, email ⁠⁠marketing@samandashlaw.com⁠⁠

How Republicans Enable a Marxist Culture - Taking the Bait Left & Right Why are Republicans okay with funding Public Schools that only churn out students that oppose them? Become a Fight Laugh Feast Member (Support the Show!) https://flfnetwork.com/product/fightlaughfestclub/

How Republicans Enable a Marxist Culture - Taking the Bait Left & Right Why are Republicans okay with funding Public Schools that only churn out students that oppose them? Become a Fight Laugh Feast Member (Support the Show!) https://flfnetwork.com/product/fightlaughfestclub/

How Republicans Enable a Marxist Culture - Taking the Bait Left & Right Why are Republicans okay with funding Public Schools that only churn out students that oppose them? Become a Fight Laugh Feast Member (Support the Show!) https://flfnetwork.com/product/fightlaughfestclub/

Today on What's Right: Why was Trump's speech low energy? Breaking down the announcement Trump's biggest adversary Alleged murderer Robert Telles implicated in further crimes Responses to the missile that hit Poland Sam & Ash is sponsoring a stuffed animal drive for kids in need this holiday season alongside Toys for Tots and the Henderson Silver Knights. New stuffed animals can be dropped off at Sam & Ash Law or purchased through our Amazon wishlist. Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Have personal injury questions? Visit Sam & Ash Injury Law to get free answers 24/7. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam @WhatsRightSam What's Right Show @WhatsRightShow FACEBOOK What's Right Show https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show @WhatsRightShow

Today on What's Right: Why the Bannon sentencing is BS What the newest generic ballot poll means Leftist wing nuts calling the shots at the DNC How Sam plans to vote on Nevada ballot questions Nevada Dems prop up child abuser Adam Levy in election ad Growing up in a totalitarian state will make you a conservative How capitalism enriches the masses Global warming ideology is about turning over our economy to the state Robert Telles updates in the murder of journalist Jeff German Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Have personal injury questions? Visit Sam & Ash Injury Law to get free answers 24/7. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam @WhatsRightSam What's Right Show @WhatsRightShow FACEBOOK What's Right Show https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show @whatsrightshow

Today on What's Right: Why law & order conservatives should be against the FBI Pastor Mark Houck targeted and raided by FBI Bureau's history of political abuse and no accountability Agents instructed to cook the books to push a political narrative Whistleblowers punished for speaking to Congress Thanks for tuning into today's episode of What's Right! If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and make sure you leave us a 5-star review. Connect with us on our socials: TWITTER Sam @WhatsRightSam What's Right Show @WhatsRightShow FACEBOOK What's Right Show https://www.facebook.com/WhatsRightShow/ INSTAGRAM What's Right Show @whatsrightshow

- Why Dave Ramsey is RIGHT- Why if you follow Dave Ramsey in all aspects of creating wealth you will lose- the prerequisite to Financial Freedom is discipline- Good debt vs. bad debt, what's the difference?- who is using debt to build wealth?- What is possible with good debt

The English version of the most listened German podcast episode “Wieso Männer Frauen betrügen und andersrum” and of course – like always – with some specials on the top. It is probably one of the spiciest topics between Mr. and Mrs. (maybe) Right: Why, if at all – do we cheat on each other? Another interesting debate between two sisters, glam girls, fight chickens and (first) ladies. How would we handle such situations, what were our lessons learned and would we forgive / never forget? We wish you many moments of laughing, drinking excellent coffee in the best company and that hopefully every boring car drive turns into an unforgettable experience while listening to our podcast and our very promising “life philosophy”.

Message: Kim LawsonTitle: Kingdom Living: Having the Right Why, What and HowSeries: Upside Down KingdomText: Matthew 6:1-7:28

How can marketers use MRI data and neurolinguistics to develop strategies and campaigns that get better marketing results? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Hackstone founder and CEO Dan Hack talks about the process his team uses to incorporate lessons learned from FMRI scans in crafting impactful stories that really resonate with audiences. Dan breaks down what he calls the "three brain framework" and shares a formula for using it to create messaging, campaigns, stories and videos that help viewers convince themselves to make a purchase. Highlights from my conversation with Dan include: Hackstone is a video production company that acts as an outsourced creative team for agencies. Dan and the team at Hackstone use neuroscience research from FMRI scans to determine what taps into peoples' emotions, and they use that to develop marketing campaigns. Dan says most marketers make the mistake of leading with facts, when in reality, buyers are driven by emotion, and then look for the facts to back up their emotional decision. The three brain framework can be used to apply these principles. It segments the brain into three parts - the emotional brain, the logical brain, and the survival brain. The survival brain decides what information the brain will actually take in based on what is needed for survival. The emotional brain is where connections and associations are made, and where memories are stored and relationships are developed. It is what triggers the desire to purchase something. The logical brain is all about facts, and is used to justify the purchases that the emotional brain wants. FMRI data is used to determine what really resonates with people, and what they really want - as opposed to what they say they might want. The most important thing in developing marketing messages and campaigns is to determine what your customers want, but unfortunately most marketers start by identifying what they want to tell customers. Dan calls this selfish marketing. Resources from this episode: Visit the Hackstone website Follow Hackstone on Instagram Check out some of the sources Dan relies on for neuroscience data: CXL NMSBA Journal of Consumer Research Journal of Advertising Research Listen to the podcast to learn how to incorporate neuroscience into the development of your marketing strategies. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And today my guest is Dan Hack who is the founder and creative director of Hackstone. Welcome Dan. Dan Hack (Guest): Thanks. Dan and Kathleen hamming it up while recording this episode. Kathleen: I'm happy to have you here and I am excited to talk about some of the things that you're working on which are really, really kind of cool and scientific. About Dan and Hackstone Kathleen: Before we get into that, for those who are listening and might not be familiar with you or Hackstone, can you talk a little bit about your story and who you are and what you do and also what Hackstone is? Dan: Yeah, sure. So Hackstone started out as a video production company. I started Hackstone like 12 years ago I think now. We've kind of developed into sort of an arm of an agency and it's been a lot of fun because we get to do the creative things we get to, we get to do different... our clients are all over the place, big and small. And we get to do a lot of kind of the creative part and work with agencies to come up with the creative, to recommend the creative to their clients and also to our clients. And then we do a lot of testing. We do a lot of like, is this going to work, you know, testing storyboards and the creative and then also doing the, you know, we call them postmortems, you know, we're afterwards you go and see why something worked and why why it didn't work. Right? So we're kind of a production company on steroids we've been called. So it's a lot of fun. We really like what we do. What does MRI data have to do with marketing? Kathleen: That's awesome. One of the things that drew me to talking with you and having this conversation is that I learned that you guys are using actually MRI data and neurolinguistics to figure out more effective ways of tapping into emotions and developing narratives. I will be the first to say, I'm a huge marketing nerd. And I think while many people think of marketing as this creative discipline, I'm always naturally drawn to the side of it that's a little bit more scientific, which is why I was like, Oh, I totally want to talk about this. So tell me, what does MRI data have to do with marketing? Dan: So nothing and everything all at the same time. So basically what we're doing, and it's funny because you develop instincts, right? About what's going to work and not work. And there's always the chase of how do we know this is going to work and why did something work and why did something not work, right? Like way back when, the reason I got into this whole thing was because I was young, I was creative. I had two projects that fell into my lap. They were really successful and creative people have a huge ego. And I had a ginormous ego, right? I became so arrogant when I first started this. I wanted to be a director, I wanted to affect the world with my product, right? And then, you get to projects that don't work at all, right? That are just flops. And the thing about a big ego is that they're incredibly fragile as well. Right? And then you become crushed and everything you thought you believed about yourself is wrong essentially. So that's when I really got into the world of like, I wanted to find out why were these two projects after I've had this success, why did these projects not work? Right? Because clients give you their money when they give you their money, they give you their trust as well. They're like, Hey, we trust that you're going to make something that's going to blow the lid off of our KPI. You know? And, and that's a lot of responsibility and that's a lot of pressure as well. So I was exposed to the world of testing pretty early on in my in my career and, and it just started with just asking people like, do you like this? Do you, how did we do? Like, do you think this is something you would buy? Is this a good product? Like, how did you resonate with it? What annoyed you? But there are a lot of problems with that and you find that, that people respond and oftentimes tell you they're really nice. People inherently are good, right? And they tell you what they think you want to hear. So the information you get back from them is not entirely accurate all the time. So you go deeper, right? You go into like, okay, well we're going to use eye tracking technology, right, to figure out like where they're looking. And then you go even deeper. You were going to use EEG to see how their brain is firing, which is, which are the like the probes you put on the head. Then you measure sweat glands and you measure pulse. And basically stop asking them questions. It's like, Hey, we're not going to ask you any more. We're just going to see how you respond to whatever stimuli we put in front of you. Kathleen: It's like a lie detector. Dan: Kind of, exactly. Only less pressure for them. You don't go to jail afterwards hopefully. But so then you get into all the way up to FMRI data, which is essentially putting somebody into an FMRI machine. And FMRI stands for functional magnetic resonance imaging. And what that does is it looks at your brain and tells you real time, with a few second delay, how your brain is firing or responding or what parts of your brain are using the most blood right? The most fuel based on what you're showing somebody. And it's like a light bulb. It's super cool. Like you can show somebody a commercial and you can tell right away based on what parts of their brains are firing, whether they like it or not. Right? Apple develops their products in FMRI machines where they show the different cases of the different screens of the different iPhones. And they can tell right away like, okay, well this part of the brain is firing and that means they like it or they don't like it or they're responding negatively or positively or whatever. And really we've taken that, so trying to kind of sum it up here, they've taken that, we've taken that and sort of put that into a framework that we call the three brain framework. That tells you certain things like we know from FMRI data that people don't respond to facts, right? But people don't buy cars because of the safety features, they don't buy cars because they have the radar you know, the radar cruise control on the highway or the leather seats or whatever. It's all about emotion, right? And that's why we always go back to how should it make you feel? Right? That's how we start every single project. We have two steps. Number one, how should it make you feel? Number two, support that with facts, right? A lot of people get that backwards. And that's what we know from FMRI data is that when you're selling facts, you're selling to a part of the brain whose only job it is to support the emotional decision that you've already made. Kathleen: Right. It's to reverse justify what we like. First we figure out what we want and then we figure out how to justify it. Dan: Right? Exactly. Exactly. But here's the thing, like we don't even know we're doing it right? Like there's, one of my favorite studies is a smoking study back from the nineties. I think it was early nineties. The biggest FMRI study ever done where it was when the surgeon general started putting the warning on the packs of cigarettes, right? And researchers wanted to find out like, well, people are still smoking, but people are saying, right, we're doing these focus groups. And people are saying like, yeah it's making me not smoke. Right? And they were like, okay, we need to put these people into FMRI machines and figure out what's going on. So first they asked them, they said, do you think the Surgeon General's warning on the pack of, you know, any tobacco product makes you less likely to smoke or makes you smoke less? And they were like, yeah, I think so. And then they put them in FMRI machines and they watched their brains as these people, number one smoked, and number two, were exposed to the Surgeon General's warning, right? And what they found is super cool. They found that when people smoke, their brains have the same reaction as, it's the reward center lights up, it just explodes, as when they see the Surgeon General's warning. It's the power of associations, right? So because when people smoke, what they usually do is they stop working, they walk down the hallway, they link up with coworkers, they have a conversation. And the last thing they see before they light a cigarette before this release of dopamine is they see the Surgeon General's warning, right? Kathleen: Pavlov's dog, right? Dan: And so they create that association, right? It really is. Yeah, exactly. So in neuromarketing, what you're doing is you're trying to figure out how the brain works and you're trying to, you don't always have the budget to test every single project, but you're trying to figure out, you're trying to make an educated guess on how people are going to respond to certain things, right? Kathleen: Sorry to interrupt you, but it's so interesting listening to you talk about this because I'm actually fascinated by the neuroscience behind all the anti-smoking campaigns. And I had done some research on this as well. And a corollary, kind of additional story to the one you just told, which I think is so interesting is you know, for many years, depending upon how old you are, if you're listening, you may or may not remember for many years, the government used these campaigns that were these very scary images of like black lungs. And, it's interesting, they're starting to do this again now. What they found, the primary focus of a lot of the antismoking campaigns was on teenagers because that's like, if you can prevent somebody from starting to smoke in the first place, it's a much better approach than trying to get somebody who's already smoking to stop. Dan: Right? Kathleen: And so they used to use those scare tactics and like, you know, just like the eggs and this is your brain on drugs kind of thing. And those did not work well. It wasn't until they had something called the Truth Campaign where they started to see some success. What the Truth Campaign did, which you may recall seeing, is it scrapped all of those fear tactics. What they did was they figured out, they really thought about like, why do people smoke? Right? Why do teenagers start to smoke in the first place? Is it because they don't understand it's bad for them? No, it's because they are rebelling against their parents. And that is a form of rebellion. And so what the Truth Campaign did was it looked at, well, if we want to tap into that feeling of rebellion, how can we leverage rebellion to get them to not smoke in the first place? So the messaging and the Truth Campaign was all around big tobacco wants to control you and has you in their pocket. So it was like rebel against big tobacco and don't fall for it essentially. And that got a much, much better outcome than all the fear tactics. And I feel like that's kind of like the same thing that you're talking about. All of these campaigns, you can pour a ton of money into them. But if you don't really understand at the very core what is that emotion that somebody is driven by, then you're not going to be successful. Dan: Right. Kathleen: So that was a long tangent, but I'm fascinated by this and there's so much interesting work being done in behavioral health that I think can inform marketing. Dan: Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, and the problem I think is that it's still kind of expensive, right? Like there are research groups and there are subscription services and we subscribe to those where when researchers do this research to find out what campaign was the most successful in this last super bowl, right? And they do the FMRI studies and they're funded. You can subscribe to that data and get that data and then use that data to kind of inform what you do. In a perfect world, yeah, we would have, you know, when we do a car campaign, you know, put people in an FMRI machine to see like, Hey, are they most stimulated by the color? Are they, is that a red car? Is it a white car? Is that a black car? So, those are all the nitty gritty things that you get into. But I think at the heart of it is exactly like what you said. You need to figure out who your audience is. You need to figure out what they want, and then give it to them. It sounds really simple and it kind of is, right? And then all these tools, this neuromarketing is essentially, we use that to try to figure out what it is, what exactly is it that your audience wants and how do you give it to them? Because a lot of clients come to us and they say here's what we want to say. Or, when you ask them questions like what causes a campaign to not perform well? And usually it goes back to selfish marketing, right? You approach that campaign with what is it that we want to say, right? We want to tell our story. Like, the word story, I'm an oppositionist. I get that. But, the word story drives me up the wall. It drives me insane because it's become this catchall, right? And it's all like, tell your story has become this romantic replacement to messaging, right? Or information or get your message out there. What does that mean? Right? So this is really a sort of a way to figure out what is the right story. There are a million stories. Like, nobody cares who started the company, right? Nobody cares why even necessarily you started the company, right? People care about other things. And this is really trying to find out what those things are and then giving them those things essentially. Kathleen: So I have so many questions for you. Dan: I'll just go and go. What is the Three Brain Framework? Kathleen: No, no, no. I warned you, I'm a huge nerd. And so like you've already seen through the smoking stuff, you and I could go for hours on this topic. But I want to break it down a little bit. So first of all, you mentioned you have this Three brain approach. Can you define for me exactly what that, like what are the three brains? Dan: Sure. So obviously, there are more than three parts of the brain, but for our purposes, for this marketing purpose we divide the brain into three parts. We have the survival brain, you have the emotional brain, and then you have the logical brain, right? And we look at it as kind of a funnel. All three parts of those brains has its own purpose. So you look at the survival brain, sort of like a club bouncer, right? He stands in the front with his arms crossed and he decides what gets in and what gets out, right? The brain is cognitive miser, right? So the brain tries to save calories. He's the guy who decides number one, is this important to my survival? Do I need to know this information? Is this going to save my life? And then he also decides, is this new information? Do I already know this information or can we just radically summarize that? So to put it on the shelf, and a good example of that is like your lawn, right? Nobody knows how many blades of grass they have in their front yard right now. It's not looking good for my yard. I have room for a lot. I've only had four like blades of grass or nursing them and, but everybody knows that you have that you have a lawn, right? You see a lawn. That's an example of something being radically summarized and then you know, and then put on a shelf. So you have that. Then if you do get through that, you have the emotional brain, right? And the emotional brain is the, we call it the mother, right? It's the mammal brain, if you will. You know, some people call it that. And basically that's where you create associations, right? Like, Hey, last time when I touched that, it burned me and that hurt. And that's important to my survival. And it does other things like memory. That's where your relationships are built, right? Like where do you fit in, in your tribe? And how do you advance, you know, in your tribe and, and you know, again, important for your survival. And also you have some really cool things that happen in here, like synesthesia for example, which is like, which is where... Kathleen: Is that where you see colors as emotions? Dan: Yeah. Kind of. But it's like when you're watching a commercial. We use this in food commercials, right? When you're watching a commercial and you do a really good job in filming that and getting that across, the viewer will actually taste what they're seeing, right? It's essentially you have these neuro pathways for like vision and for taste and for smell and whatever. And sometimes when they're really powerful, when you have a train, there's a train outside. So that made me think of it. When you have a train like hurling down this neuro pathway, sometimes it'll jump the track onto another pathway. Right? Kathleen: I feel like I totally know what you're talking about because when I go to the movies, my chain of cinemas locally, in the intro kind of footage that leads up to every movie, they always have the sound of the can of Coke popping open. And then the pouring into the glass with the ice and the fizzy sound combined with the ice clinking and the Coke filling. And I'm like sitting there going, Oh my God, I need a Coke. And I can taste it right now. Dan: I want that. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. So that's the part of the brain where those kinds of things happen, right? And those are the kinds of things we want to do. And that's why you make food. Like your goal is to make the viewer taste the food, right? Pizza. Really close shots of the cheese pulls and those kinds of things. Right? Super important. So anyway, the emotional brain is where we do most of our decision making, right? Then you have the logical brain and the logical brain is sort of like, it's like, it reminds me of my dad, right? He's the accountant and he's the guy who basically, he's like the legal department, right? He's the guy who who ruins the fun essentially, you know, like, like you say... Kathleen: We call that "the fun sponge". Dan: Yeah, exactly. It's the higher processing. Dan: And this part of the brain either supports what your emotional brain has already decided when it comes to purchasing or it overrides that decision, right? So you can go and sit in a Ferrari and you smell that new smell of the Ferrari and you really want it and you feel that emotional connection to the car in that red and that tan leather, you know, or whatever. And then the logical brain comes in and says like, Hey, 2,500 bucks a month. Like that's more than your mortgage. There's no way. We're not doing that. And really, that's the way it works. So the emotional brain is where you should be selling, right? When you create something, you should create it for the emotional brain and then create facts to support the logical brain in helping support the emotional brain in making that decision. So that's why facts should come second. Yet most of our marketing aims directly for that logical brain, yet that's not where we make decisions. Kathleen: Yeah, that makes total sense. Cause I totally know that myself, how I buy. It's like I see something I like and I'm like, I really want that. How can I justify it? It's the old saying buy the dress and then find the party. Where to find neuroscience data Kathleen: So for somebody who's listening, I think if they understand this conceptually, you know, if it were me, my next question would be like, great, now how do I find this data to help me figure out what emotions to tap into? And you were mentioning there's ways you can subscribe to information about FMRI data. So can you get into a little bit if somebody wants to learn more about this, get tapped into to that kind of data, where can they find it? Dan: Sure. So I can send you some links afterwards if you want to put those in the show notes there on some of the places where you can subscribe to that. Publications, you can subscribe to even industry standard or industry specific data, you know, that apply directly to your industry. But a lot of this stuff is really, it's not new information, right? You have to beat it into your brain to kind of remember that. So, for example, the principle of the three brains, right? The fact that our minds look for contrast. There's this framework. Your mind looks for contrast, right? It's got to get into your mind first without being filtered out. And then you have certain principles that are kind of spread out. They're all over. And I think you have to make a decision. So that's why you have neuro marketing firms who put that together for you if you don't want to think about it. But I think it's important to become familiar with that. And then to put everything you do marketing wise, messaging wise through a framework like that. Does that make sense? How to apply neuroscience to B2B marketing Kathleen: Yeah, it does. And, in my head I'm thinking I can see so clearly how you would use this. You used the example of a Ferrari. If you're selling a Ferrari or you're selling a food product or you know, clothing or some things that are more consumer facing, maybe more optional products if you will. But my question is when it comes to, for example, like what somebody might consider to be a boring B2B purchase, like accounting software or you know, like I'm in cybersecurity. Walk me through how you think about developing an emotional tug for something that most people look at as a pretty boring thing. Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing before we even get to that emotional tug, we have to remember, get through the bouncer, right? So one of the things, and I had this super cool example, hold on, I might have it written down here, that that I pulled. Now maybe I don't. You get these emails where people use industry jargon a lot, right? You first have to think about how do you get through the bouncer. So you have to make it easy to understand. You have to, you have to understand that you're super close to your industry. The person you're talking to might not be super close to your industry. So understand that your brain immediately asks, do we even let this information in? Whether it's an email, whether it's a marketing video, whether it's a commercial, like whatever it is, whether it's a billboard even. Should we let this information in? And you have to then go to the emotional connection of how do you make that emotional connection. So when we say emotional connection, you have to emote. What we mean is you have to think about how should this messaging make you feel. So some questions to ask are, should this make the person feel like I'm an authority? Should this person feel afraid that you know, that somebody is going to hack their system or steal ransomware, viruses, those kinds of things. Should they feel funny? Or should your messaging feel funny? Should they be amused? So you go back to that. How should it make you feel? And then you take that information and that information should support that. Does that make sense at all? Examples of marketing campaigns that have been developed using MRI data Kathleen: Yeah, it does. It totally does. So let's get into some examples because you guys have done work with some really interesting companies and I feel like this is especially one of those topics where you can talk about it conceptually and still not understand it. But when you dive into actual examples, it starts to become much more clear. So can you maybe talk about how you've used these principles with some of the companies you've worked with to get really great results? Dan: Sure. Exactly. So car ads. So I'll take a local first. So we work with a local brand. It was a Ford dealership and they had done celebrity commercials in the past where they had an athlete say like, Hey, here's where I'm shopping. And when we look at data, FMRI data, even with the, with the latest COVID, there's a lot of data coming out from COVID PSAs where they're saying a lot of these pieces are falling flat, right? A lot of this messaging from COVID 19 is falling flat, even with celebrities in it. Why is that? Right? And then you get into like, it's not just a matter of getting celebrity, you have to put that celebrity in a, in a situation where it's authentic. And what's authenticity? That depends on your brand. So, a while back, we put an athlete into a set of Ford commercials. And the problem was that athletes can't act. Not only can't they act, athletes don't want to act right. And it was almost like, you know, having this athlete is working. It's okay, but we're doing it because we've done it in years past and it's sort of like people expect that from our brands. How do we ramp that up? So what we did was we came in and we said okay, the athlete can't act, he doesn't want to act. He shouldn't act if he doesn't want to, so you don't have to. What does the audience want? So we created this campaign where we took this athlete, made fun of the fact that he's in a commercial where he's being asked to act and he doesn't want to act. And it was phenomenal, right? It went all the way up the chain to like, what are you guys doing? This is awesome. This is like the best campaign ever. The athlete had a lot more fun doing the commercial. The client had a much better response from that. And that trickles down to now you have fundraisers with the athlete where now you have a better response to that. You sell more cars. People are talking about your brand more and most importantly, people remember your brand more. Because ultimately it's about attention and it's about keeping the attention. And then, how were you remembered by the people who maybe aren't ready to buy now but are ready to buy in 90 days? Wherever they are in their cycle and their buying cycle. And how do you stay top of mind for that? Pizza, same thing. You know, in the celebrity line, we work with a pizza brand every year where they have an athlete who works with them to not only sell pizzas but also to raise money for a charity. A certain amount of your sales goes to whatever the charity is. And they had typically had this green screen and put the celebrity up. The celebrity image, let that just do the work. And people didn't respond to that. So we went back and said, okay, who is the audience here? Who are we really trying to attract? And it's fans of this athlete, right? So you look at the basic framework. You don't have to FMRI study this to kind of get that framework. We look at that information and we say okay, they want to be entertained. And the best way to entertain them, and we know this from FMRI data, it's the associations, right? So if you were to put a puppy on the screen, and then put the brand at the end, if that's the emotion you want to be linked to, you are already 75% of the way there, right? When it comes to commercials then you put in your messaging and you make it even better. And we found in the past that when you take a product and you integrate it into a piece of entertainment, you maintain that audience attention. It's the sense parts of an advertisement. So when I say ad, I mean like a video, even a video on Facebook for example. And you're trying to get a lead or you're trying to sell mattresses or whatever it is you're trying to sell, it's about keeping the attention, and especially how long a viewer stays in a video matters because that's how you retarget, right? That's how you recognize how interested they are. We have a three minute video. They made it all the way to the end, they're super interested, right? So it becomes like this capturing the attention and then maintaining the attention. So what we did with the pizza brand is we created a short film and we put this character, the athlete, which was Alex Ovechkin, into this pizza commercial where he was in these absurd scenarios. Like he initially moved here from Russia where pizza was the reason he moved, not hockey. He stumbled upon hockey when he was delivering pizzas, right? And it was this absurd storyline that was just fun and entertaining. And you saw this athlete in a situation he's not normally in. When you're selling, you're always asking people for their attention. When they're seeking you out, that's when it's okay to just give them the information, like on an iPhone, right? But when you're asking them, when you're interrupting their lives and you're asking them for their attention, you're saying like, Hey, we want you to buy our pizza. Because when you buy our pizza, a portion of your proceeds go to whatever the charity is, you have to make it worth their while. And we saw a a phenomenal capture rate. Not only that, but the average, I'm trying to think of like what it is now. So the average completion rates for any video for a long form video is about 15%. We were hitting 86, 87% completion rates because when somebody starts the video, they watch all the way to the very end to the logo and to the offer. Which is phenomenal. And those are the kinds of things, more than just views, you can say Oh yeah, this got 2 million impressions, you know, which is great. You can buy impressions. Impressions don't really mean a lot. Are they meaningful impressions? Ultimately that's what you're trying to get to with FMRI, or with any neuro marketing, you're trying to get to the bottom of, is this meaningful to our audience? You're getting their attention. You're hopefully keeping their attention by creating a meaningful experience that is worth their time, which is ultimately the most valuable thing I think we have. How to get started with neurolinguistics and MRI data Kathleen: That's so interesting. Throughout this conversation, you've sprinkled in things that are a good guide for somebody if they're thinking okay, I want to do this. Can you kind of summarize, if you were meeting with somebody for the first time and you needed to tell them, here's how you're going to go ahead and use this concept for your own marketing, what are the steps they should go through? Where do they get started? Dan: Sure. So we've got a framework, I can pull it up here real quick just just as a reference. We've got a campaign worksheet that we use for these when we go in that's based on our three brains. So for example, we always ask, what's the purpose of your video? What's the primary goal of your campaign? And that's just the background information. So you say who's your customer? And then how are you going to measure success? I think it's super important to figure out how are we even going to gauge if this thing is working or if it's successful or not? You'd be amazed how many people don't know. A lot of times, especially with video, we find that a lot of people come to us and say like, Hey, the CEO wants a video. We don't really know what the purpose is, but can you just get it off my plate? We call those box checker videos and then we're like that nerdy kid in class who's like, but we still want an A, right? So we'll get the A for you. So again, we start out with contrast. So we say like, who are your competitors? And you take inventory of what your competitors are doing. And again, through this neuro research, we know that it is better to be different than it is to be better. It's very difficult to quantify better. Like, what is better to some people, right? So, for example, banks might say, and this is a common thing, when a customer comes into our bank, we know their name. We know them, we have that personal relationship. To me that's not better. I love being anonymous. When I walk into a branch and they say, good morning, Mr. Hack, I'm like, Oh cool, I need to find a new bank. They know my name. That's not good. I don't like that. So that's something that doesn't work for everybody. So then you say how many competitors, what are your competitors doing? How do you not do what your competitors are doing? Because we know through the tests we do repeatedly that when you put a series of car commercials that all say the same thing, when you watch the Today Show in the morning and you see the lawyer commercials one right after the other that say, we're fighting for you, we're here for you, we're the tough guys. You know, people don't remember that. People will watch that. We watch people watch those. It's commercials where we'll put like five or six of those in a row. We'll watch people watch them. We'll see them interact with them. Yet at the end of that run of commercials, they don't remember anything. They don't remember any of the brands. Because again, the bouncer, right? The survival brain has decided like, Hey, you don't need to know this information. Even if you're in the market for that, you don't need to know this information. It's going to use too many calories to process it. I'm going to put it all together for you, put it in a basket and put it on the shelf. You don't need to worry about it. People don't remember what they saw. They don't remember brands. They don't even remember the storylines at the end of that. So the first thing we do is try to figure out, okay, what do we do that's different? We put that into our framework. The next thing is simplicity. And this again is the survival brain. So for a long form video, you might decide what are the three points we want to make really well? Where for a commercial you may decide what's the one point we know, through testing? When you try to make three points in a 32 second commercial, people remember generally nothing. It's like 0.5 when you average it out, right? When you put one point in a commercial, when you try to make one point, people tend to remember mostly that one point that you're making. So you have to ask yourself, okay, like we want to get these 15 things across in our messaging or in our video. Is this the place for that? Where are you in the buying cycle? And right now when you're top of funnel, is this the place where you want to try to educate customers on your product? Usually, no. So because it's just too much to remember at that point, what do you need to prove to your customer to convince them to buy? So that's how you appeal to the logic part, because the logic part is going to ultimately support the emotional part. How should you deliver that information? And then we look at the reward. The final thing is the reward. Why should your viewer keep watching? And when we test a long form piece, like with the Ovechkin piece for example, it looks fun and it looks interesting and it looks entertaining, but it's very thought out. We went through and figured that in a piece like this, you have somebody's attention for maybe seven, eight seconds before their mind starts wandering. What can we put in there at the seven, eight second mark that is going to recapture their attention, draw them in? So you have to do that throughout your video. And when you watch I don't know, like the Purple Mattress for example, is a really good campaign. That was done to repeatedly bring you back in those really good long form, like Dollar Shave. Kathleen: I was just going to say that first Dollar Shave Club video that made them go viral, you couldn't stop watching because the pace was so perfect and you knew there was something more fantastic that was coming. Dan: Yeah. So, and you have to remember that what's interesting to you is likely not interesting to your customer. And that's what we talk about as selfish marketing. What do they want to hear versus what do I want to say? Yup. Kathleen: I love it. Well, okay, so any chance that I could share a link to that campaign framework in the show notes because that sounds like a super valuable document for people to have. Dan: And then it's got other things too, which is super cool. What does your customer want? What's their internal problem? Then you get into internal versus external problems and those kinds of things. What's keeping them from having what they want and how do you solve that problem? But ultimately, people remember how they felt when they watched your stuff or when they're exposed to your brand much more. And again, FMRI data or not FMRI data, it comes down to the fact that people remember how they felt. They don't remember what you said. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: This is so interesting and it's been so much fun to talk about. I want to ask you two questions and then I want to get into how somebody can follow up and learn more. So my two questions that I always ask everybody, the first one is, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. I'm curious, is there a particular company or individual that you think is really setting the standard for doing inbound marketing right now? Dan: Yeah, I do. I think there's so many of them. Most of the national long form ads that you're seeing on Facebook now are really well done. For example, Purple Mattresses, really well done. They have the bears, right? I think Geico, the Martin agency, Geico does a phenomenal job. And I also think that Dollar Shave Club really was the kind of the groundbreaking long format that changed how long form ads work. Even though you had that data, there's a disconnect between people know what the right thing to do is versus them actually doing those things. Kathleen: I love those examples. And then the other thing, most marketers I talk to say they suffer from this problem of what I call drinking through a fire hose. Digital marketing changes so quickly. It's really hard to keep up with best practices and new technology and all that. So how do you personally keep yourself educated? Dan: So you know, there's certain people, certain things I follow. Some people follow Gary V - Gary Vaynerchuk. So people like that. You take those sources. I have a ton of those sources that I use. And then in the morning I sit down and go through them to see what's happening. And then you decide what you remember and what you don't remember. I can send you some of those links. Kathleen: Who are your top three sources? How about that? Dan: Top three sources? I'd have to say, so I use a lot of the curated stuff like IAB, the newsletters. I use a lot of those. We use CXL. We use a lot of Harvard Business Review. And then just staying in touch with people. I've got a lot of colleagues in the industry where we talk about what's happening, who's doing what? What worked for your clients, what didn't work, what did you find out? Did you hear about a new study that just came out? You know, those kinds of things. How to connect with Dan Kathleen: Awesome. Well, if somebody is listening to this and they want to learn more about what we talked about or they just want to learn more about you or Hackstone, what's the best way for them to connect with you online? Dan: Hackstone.com. That's our website. We're on social as well. We try to make our social a little more entertaining than the website. The team is a lot less ADD and a lot less all over the place than I am. So they typically will do the talking. So if you're lucky, you won't have to actually talk to me. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Alright, well I think talking to you is fascinating. So if you are listening to this podcast and you liked what you heard or you learned something new, I mean, I know I did this time for sure. This was so interesting. Head to Apple Podcasts and please consider leaving the podcast a five star review because that is how we get found by new listeners. And if you know somebody else who's doing amazing inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, and I would love to have them as my next guest. That is it for this week. Thank you so much, Dan. This was a really fun conversation. Thanks.  

The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.Send us feedback at MetagnosisPodcast@gmail.com. [Transcript by Bob, our AWS robot secretary][0:00:13] Yuta: Okay, So this week, we read beginning of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations. And we only read about 5 to 7 chapters. But I found this personally. Very, I thought it was great. I was very entertained. And I think I learned a lot even though it's very old and its at the beginning of a long tradition of economics. But I thought it held up. Really well,[0:00:48] Henry: do you remember what year it was[0:00:51] Yuta: 1776? OK, it's just kind of crazy. Yeah, it's the year of the Declaration of Independence, and I think it's the year  critique of pure reason came out. So, oh, around that time? Around that time, I think. I might be thinking of a different book but it's around that. Came out right after, anyways, yeah. So I thought we would talk about the 1st two parts of what we read, which I would divide into basically an explanation of how markets and specialization work and how that creates wealth and the second part is going to be about what money is and, how labour on wealth relates to money or commodities.[0:02:00] Henry: it's kind of about how value works in the market, right?[0:02:03] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah. So, first, just to summarize it really quickly. I think it was basically, you know, we just talked about intro economics classes, but it was basically what you would get in an intro economics class. Now I think I was really surprised by how modern it was, and the writing was also, like, very readable. I really appreciated that. It's kind of rare for something, so old, but yes. So it explained that, you know. Okay, so one example I really liked was that in, like, poor tribes, basically, everyone is employed in a way because everybody is useful. Everybody has a way where they can contribute. But in wealthier countries, a lot of people are totally unemployed. And a lot of people who don't work at all like consumed 10 times more than people that work a lot. so it kind of it's kind of a weird situation, but yeah, it works out that way because of, he says specialization. I guess there's a lot of ways to go at this. But this is one way. With specialization, someone can focus on one task and get very good at that. And then through the chain of production, you can focus on your own task and create basically much more than, you would be able to on your own. So he has very concrete examples, which I really appreciated. His biggest example was with pins where he says, he actually described really in detail, the production of pins and it kind of surprised me. It's kind of, you know, trivial in a way. But I know it was told in a compelling way. and yeah, he very convincingly shows how factories can be so much more productive than a single person. I think in his example of something like 200 times or something on that massive scale[0:04:28] Henry: and even at that time before we have, you know, factories that we think of today assembly lines and things like that.[0:04:36] Yuta: yeah, not even talking about robots. They're competing. I think this is just people laboring but organizing that in different ways, not having massive returns,[0:04:50] Henry: and I think that just to recognize a point you made. It's a common theme throughout the book that he brings up lots of concrete examples of each of the concepts that he talks about. And if you are familiar with the idea, then it's sort of a little bit redundant. But it's super useful for learning and getting to know exactly what he's talking about.[0:05:13] Yuta: Yeah, so, yeah, I was going to bring up it reminds me it was very redundant to me. I felt like and also, I think, to a lot of people, like for someone who I mean, I think intro economics classes kind of are pretty redundant for a lot of people. I mean, if you read the newspaper and you kind of understand how trade works, things like that, it's not a lot of new concepts, but yeah, I guess it was also interesting. Interesting to see how this would be thought through from a perspective where it's not obvious he's, you know, probably most of the reason it's obvious to us now is because, Adam Smith and people like that discovered this, and it's kind of filtered down to everyone. Basically,[0:06:14] Henry: Yeah. I mean, this is not really a work of science, per se. It's I wouldn't know exactly how to describe the genre, but he's going through and he's giving an explanation of these things that are so commonplace that most people involved would already have some sort of intuition about, you know, their place within the system. But what he's bringing together is an overall explanation that accounts for the way that everything is already set up.[0:06:43] Yuta: Yeah. So I thought it was science because, he poses a theory about how society works. And then it's, you know, it's falsifiable? you can make predictions about specialization. His predictions would be like a country with more specialization has more wealth. Someone thought that, and then he you know, he has the empirical data that he looks at. So it is theory. So, yes. So what made you think that it isn't science?[0:07:22] Henry: okay. Yeah. Maybe it was a little bit too strong in claiming that it isn't a scientific work. I don't think that it practices the rigor that we would expect from social science in the time that we are talking about now. Yeah, but it was probably a very good work of social science at the time, for sure.[0:07:43] Yuta: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. It doesn't resemble like a modern economics paper.[0:07:49] Henry: Yeah. I mean, not that I expected there to be a modern economics papers there. Yeah, so I guess that in terms of the standards of science today, it wouldn't be considered science. But at the time, yes, it would be a good work of science.[0:08:03] Yuta: I think it would. I don't know. I think it's still a work of science, but it's just that economics has adopted heavily mathematical formal methods. And Adam Smith didn't, which I mean, that's something. I mean, maybe in the rest of the look, more of it comes in. But it wasn't obvious to me that it would be like this. I thought maybe it would be have more formal work, but, not that that's a criticism.[0:08:35] Henry: Yes. And that's an interesting point.[0:08:38] Yuta: And it does make sense that it is less formal. Yeah, it is kind of less scientific, in a way it's more philosophical. Yeah, I get your point. Yeah, because you know, he is a philosopher and it's not like there was this long established tradition of economics. He's kind of creating the field largely so, I mean, that's how I see what the role of philosophers as being. It's looking at new aspects of reality that haven't been explored in a rigorous way and then creating the methodology to be able to that. And so that's definitely a philosophical process. Yeah, it's not a scientific process. You need a methodology to do science, you need to come up with the methodologies. At this primitive stage, it's more philosophical.[0:09:38] Henry: Yeah, I guess this goes beyond our original motivations for talking about this. Yeah, that is an interesting point. And putting this in the context of, like, how exactly should you read this? You're not looking for like, oh, he had this experiment that he observed where these people were trading these things or using this thing is money. But it turns out we found this evidence that it isn't exactly the way he said it was. So therefore his theory is wrong. Like that's not how you should be reading this[0:10:07] Yuta: Yeah, and I mean, so far, I think he's, he's been born out pretty right about, you know, this first part that we've been we've been talking about and I think it makes sense to talk about most of the aspects a little bit because it's, you know, the, of the founding of discipline. But yeah, we can talk about the more another time.[0:10:37] Henry: Yeah, I also want to say, so maybe getting back onto the core material. You were mentioning how first he observes that in a poor tribe, right was the example. But everyone is basically employed end in that way. Everyone is not completely self sufficient, is pretty self sufficient. They can get their own food and they maintain their own shelter, and they get whatever the resources they need directly. They don't rely on other people for necessary. Resource is. But one of the aspects of this is that if you weren't self sufficient, not only would you not be employed that you would be dead like it's not really a matter of the everyone decides to be employed. It's more that you can't not be employed.[0:11:29] Yuta: I think we'll Another thing is even went in communities that are highly interdependent, like poor communities that are highly interdependent. I think everyone is still employed just because it's easy to be useful in a city where, I guess, more There isn't, like, a huge inequality in the returns to labour. Something we thought.[0:12:00] Henry: Yeah, this is another point that he brought up it. Was that all right? Uh huh. It was, according to his observations, it doesn't seem that people very and natural talent Teoh a very significant degree, or at least not to a significant degree in comparison to the ah possible differences and returns the labour that adults seem to have. No. And the explanation for this is that are the justification for how this could be the case, while still there is such a discrepancy in return. So labor is that in fact, under certain circumstances, specialization being allowed will allow you to provide much more value than if you weren't specialized.[0:12:48] Yuta: Yeah, so yeah. So how that would apply to the poor tried, I think, is even if people are you know, their specialized like it's the tribe where you know, you have the hunters, and then you have They're gathers. You have people tending to the food, growing crops and people hunting like that's specialization, But they're still going to be poor, and it's still going to be very high, great or ratio of people that are doing useful work. So it's not, just being, you know, self sufficient, even like kind of interdependent societies can be poor. Ah, and have high employment.[0:13:43] Henry: I think there's a difference between interdependence and ah specialization because you ca NBI interdependent and still not be specialized. You conduce a lot of different tasks, but not all the tasks. So I guess that maybe what it is is that we're creating a false dichotomy between no specialization and being specialized. It's more where along the scale of specialization is allowed in your society.[0:14:12] Yuta: Yeah, Okay. And I would definitely yeah, the tribes air less specialized,[0:14:21] Henry: right? Yeah. It's not that they have no special visions, just that they're less specialized. And that has something to do with the reason that they're not as productive.[0:14:31] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah, let's exactly. And that's yeah, to move ahead. Yeah, that's yeah. Basically this point here. I think that the more you specialized, you can, kind of a choir mastery in this very specific thing because you're doing it, you know, for hours, every day and even begin to invent tools to, help with that. And yeah, I mean, his explanations. I really liked one of them here. They're so concrete. When here is about a boy, he seems to say it was an actual home boy, but it's boy like to play with his friends a lot. And so his job was to like this play fellows. Yeah, his I don't even know what this was. But some something with a furnace. You know, I I don't know e I live in the person chain. I have worked in, whatever factory, but so he had some task to do other furnace. And then he figured out a way to, like, open the furnace or something if he attached to rope to it to another part of the contraption. And then So he did that. And then he went out, went to play with his friends, So yeah. Adam Smith. Yeah, besides status as an example of, I guess ingenuity, and someone having with specialized task, allowing for, more productivity. All right. Yeah. And it's although it's not more productivity if you're just playing, if you show someone your invention them, that's definitely very useful,[0:16:17] Henry: right? So he describes. This is an example of specialization where it's not that your specialized in doing a particular form of like, the work that needs to be done to produce the thing. It's that there's a specialization in other directions as well. And I think that he calls this class of people philosophers right. There's a quote I highlighted. Many improvements have been made by the ingenuity of the makers of the machines when to make them became the business of a peculiar trade and some by that of those who are called philosophers or menace speculation, whose trade is not to do anything but to observe everything and who, upon that account, are often capable of combining together the powers of the most distant into similar objects in their progress of society. Philosophy or speculation becomes, like every other employment, the principal, our soul, trade and and occupation of a particular class of citizens. And that was one sentence.[0:17:14] Yuta: Yeah, and, of course, Smith Bottoms of himself. I mean, he was a philosopher going on and on an economist[0:17:23] Henry: e. Well, I think that I sort of read this as, ah, he calls them philosophers. But maybe today we would call them academics, scientists and philosophers.[0:17:36] Yuta: Oh, I thought he meant philosophers in particular. But[0:17:40] Henry: But, I mean, if he was looking at, like, if he was to, you know, come to the 21st century, I think that he would identify those people as what he meant by philosophers as well. Do you[0:17:51] Yuta: think? I don't know. I mean, well, Adam Smith in particular was a false for, you know, as we would think of a false for right. But yeah, maybe. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, Mom, What I read isn't telling me, but it's but yeah, I think you meant probably philosophers. And you could maybe in include some of what scientists do inside of that. But it seemed like you meant fosters. Just be. Is he talked about them being, kind of most associated with ah, ideas in abstraction. He says he kind of has Ah, He takes the Shawna from when? he says that people are like you mentioned, you know, broadly similar in talent. But once they kind of specialized, they can convince themselves, Like philosophers convinced themselves that they're just, like, totally different than it. Just like a different kind of, you know, being force. yeah. You know, that would be an interesting thing to look into. How? And I'm also interested in how yeah, when people started thinking of themselves as economics Oh, muscle. I mean, like, why did he write this book? Like, you know, his previous work was pretty well received. Was about, you know, on the sentiments off moles. There's something thought look on that very straightforwardly philosophy and mean. I mean, it's in that tradition on directly sites fosters when he writes this thing, it is about, wealth.[0:19:54] Henry: Yeah, I guess I I see. It just sort of him musing about like, these are a ton of things that I've been thinking about, and it actually fits together pretty well. So I'm gonna write this book about it like it's a very it's a neat thing, cause it's, you know, written in the style of the sort of philosophical texts of the time that air read a lot in false E, But it's about, like, you know, the real world. Very normal things that happened rather than very up shark things.[0:20:29] Yuta: Yeah, there is. Yeah, there's like like we talked about that level of abstraction, but he always like, and he usually having starts with the abstract statements, like, you know, specialization brings wealth. But then he uses the extremely concrete examples. Well, which makes it beyond that part is very different from philosophy. Yeah, maybe his fall self goal of training paid off. I'm son. Yeah, I think that was a good point. It's definitely structured in the way that there, Yeah, that philosophical works were Yeah, like, Yeah, a lot. Like, David Hume.[0:21:10] Henry: Brian? Yeah. Exactly. Also[0:21:11] Yuta: as old since yeah, as always. You know Smith earlier where[0:21:16] Henry: I think they both have Hume and Smith, both of Scottish ancestry as well.[0:21:21] Yuta: Yeah, I think. Yeah. I think they're both in in Scotland for the most part. And then Anna Smith studied at Oxford, but yeah, I think they were in the same basically group of people[0:21:33] Henry: uses Scotland for a lot of examples. Really funny. you[0:21:38] Yuta: also England, England. Like the shining? yeah,[0:21:43] Henry: all right. Yeah. All their confusing names for different amounts of money. Anyway, so Okay, this So this first section is about Ah, what was your delineation of it? Again?[0:22:01] Yuta: It's about specialisation or how wealth is created through specialization, right? It's 11 Other point is I'm He says that specialisation is, biggest in manufacturing and that agriculture is kind of similarly productive. Basically everywhere.[0:22:24] Henry: Oh, yeah, that was I didn't really understand exactly what the purpose of thought section was. Yeah, So he says that it doesn't really matter where you drive your culture. It's not gonna be any more efficient in different locations.[0:22:38] Yuta: Yeah, And he says, like wealthier countries put more resources into their agriculture. But like, per unit of resource, more labor, if they're not any more efficient than in a poor country.[0:22:54] Henry: Right? And you were first back to this later actually to say that certain agricultural products are good, stable values to measure things by but also in regards to this point. Hey, does talk about it in terms of specialization, which I think is like the way that you would think of a specialization. Is that its different people deciding to focus on particular kinds of work rather than doing many different kinds of work. But he also, relates this really closely to I think this is a good insight to specialization of time, in place as well. But, ah, he refers a lot to opening not necessarily global, but a larger marketplace so that you can have certain areas that are better doing certain things, Ah, to do those things there and then you can transport it over to another place. And as long as the transportation is ah, you know, not as costly as the efficiency gain. Then it's, ah, role. Better to do in that other location.[0:24:02] Yuta: Yeah, Yeah. This geography plays a large role in his explanation in other places as well. Like he identifies that cities in the coast and then just, the wealthy regions in general tend to be along coasts or along like a a river. That, is very good for transportation on, right? Yeah, he says, Yeah, that's because if you, well, if there, then you can transport your wares to a lot of different places and convert it to things that are useful to you. Weaken specialize more basically BZ Evo access to a wire market,[0:24:45] Henry: right? Exactly. So it's and more Special Edition leads to more efficiency. More wealth?[0:24:51] Yuta: Yeah, I think the word eases. It's like the extent of the market is greater in those areas. Yeah, you're able to sell toe wide range of people is if you like, live in China. Yeah. Yeah. So if you live in the middle of a country and you don't have access to ports, then if you make you know 10 million pins, then you have no no one to sell them to. It's it's kind of pointless to make that many pins. So you have to kind of make a few pins, maybe to say you can sell to your town. But then you have to spend your time on other stuff if you want to be as productive as you can and then you're specializing specialising less. So, yeah, everyone's were[0:25:38] Henry: soft overall, right? Right. Yeah, that's the That's a major theme of specialization is that it's ah, very collaborative effort. Specialization is not to help certain people of the expense of others. It actually will make everyone better involved. Our every everyone will be a better off who's involved in the specialization, you know, game.[0:26:00] Yuta: Just about a month. Yeah, he talks about it's collaboration, but it's based on ah, self interest. Everyone's working based on self interest without at this point, I feel like this. I mean, this is kind of reveal, right? But yeah, it's, but it's like, surprisingly, I think a lot of people don't. Yeah, they don't like this idea or agree with it. What was just kind of always spice to me it because I think it's almost like a political topic now, but I think it's something that's empirically correct. So it should. It should be me on debate.[0:26:46] Henry: Well, in terms of the modern contacts. First of all, here's a quote that, you know, we can't not to say. Ah, but man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brother, and and it is in vain for him to expect it to be there. But by their benevolence on Lee, it will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self love in his favor and true them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. And then there's the quote about the Baker is a little and the junior that's really famous. Yeah, it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves not to their humility but to their self love and never talk of them of our own necessities. But if their advantages and what I was so yeah, those were good coats. But what I was going to say is that, I think that in the modern context, it's it's interesting to think about this as I was reading, because he gives all these examples and it's sort of like trying to justify, ah, specialization and you know, lots of other things that will get you. But it's so weird because we just take it really for granted in modern society, like you just take it for granted that you can go to the score to get food, and you don't want to make your own food like let's just I couldn't have ever amounted to any other way it would. It just seems ah, like completely different life to have to grow your own food, you know? Yeah. And for[0:28:27] Yuta: for him, that's also the truth, right? Oh,[0:28:31] Henry: yeah. He's living in a society that I don't know exactly where he's living at the time, but there is also this specialization already, but yeah, I couldn't imagine, like only being able to get food from my town. Are you something even?[0:28:49] Yuta: Yeah, that. I mean, that would mean you're living in a basically try, bring like like, there's a few in in the Congo or something,[0:28:59] Henry: right? Yeah, ya. But when you talk about the sort of political arguments that are happening, I almost wonder if it's that it's become such a baseline toe have all of the structures of specialization that the arguments are about very minor differences. But since everyone just accepts the baseline, they've seen relatively large,[0:29:26] Yuta: I think. Among economists, that's definitely I think the case. I think pretty much every minute stuff just yeah, I think that any economist will say, kind of this specialization and markets are do a pretty good job of, Verity of things on. Then they'll argue about, you know, some of the limitations of markets. But I think in the general public, the general polkas in anywhere near at that point. But yeah, that's Simmons. Another discussion. True? Yeah. Okay. Ah, but but you do hear you know all the time about you know, the invisible hand. People just like take downs of the invisible hand of the market or people or kind of greed and selfishness being just basically bad things that are basically bad for people without any acknowledgement of some of its benefits at times.[0:30:37] Henry: Yeah, I agree. But it also seems justice intuitive that people do expect to be compensated for their efforts like they'll argue about, Ah, you know, being nice and not being selfish when it's about things that are, like, special. But when it comes to going to work, you're like, yeah, I want to get better pay check if I can. Like, I don't feel bad about that.[0:31:05] Yuta: I'm and have anything. Some of these people. Okay. Okay.[0:31:11] Henry: Yeah, maybe. Maybe we're talking about different groups, but it seems some majority of people are sort of on board with the whole, like exchanging labor for money and that sort of[0:31:21] Yuta: thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, perspective. This very messed up from being a crazy liberal arts college. Okay, of anyways, so should we talk about the second part?[0:31:39] Henry: Yeah, yeah, let's do that.[0:31:42] Yuta: Yeah. So the second part, he goes on to talk about what basically went wealth is and how it's transferred between people and the form that it's transferred between people, which is basically commodities on. Then eventually money. And he identifies of money like the value of money. It's kind of it's an interesting question. Like what? How does money have value when it's so what? He and then fights this, that the value behind money is the labor that goes into the goods. So when you buy, I guess[0:32:27] Henry: I think that's the value of the goods, right?[0:32:32] Yuta: well, it's the value of the currency as well, he says. It's It's the value of the labor that goes into producing the goods that your purchasing[0:32:46] Henry: well, that's the value of the goods. But how do you determine how much the value of the currency is[0:32:53] Yuta: by how much something costs? And then,[0:32:56] Henry: well, that's what we're trying to determine. How much How much does a loaf of bread cost in terms[0:33:01] Yuta: of literacy? So let's say it's $10. I think Adam Smith would say, Ah, the bread costs $10 because it took $10 of labour to produce the bread.[0:33:20] Henry: Ah, well, maybe you were starting a different places. I'm thinking of like, imagine we didn't have money or we didn't have a centralized system of money. Then how do we get from that to having money?[0:33:32] Yuta: Okay, I guess Weekend, that's a better place to start. So[0:33:36] Henry: we don't have dollars to reference. We just have lives of bread and, you know, other commodities.[0:33:45] Yuta: well, yeah, well, in that kiss, yeah, it's I mean, trade is a lot harder. Obviously the most. The easiest way to do it would be to trade another loaf of bread. but then he talks about oxen. Became the next kind of one of the first forms of money. Basically, right. Homer talked about people's armor being valued in terms of money. Someone had, in terms of oxen. I mean, someone had armor worth 10 oxen 100 oxen. Yeah.[0:34:27] Henry: See, you measure things in terms of oxen.[0:34:29] Yuta: Yeah, because I s oxen were useful to everyone. So you didn't. Yeah, I kind of have to, yeah. Come up with some artificial. Yeah,[0:34:44] Henry: it was basically a Barner because you're bartering with something that actually has the value that you're trying to get. Like, intrinsically. Yeah, the difference is that since everyone uses oxen, it's sort of fungible You can you can use as an intermediary value you don't toe like, expect the person that you're gonna be trading to yuta have to want the thing you have already. Yeah, yuta, they will.[0:35:09] Yuta: Yeah. So commodity is something that's basically interchangeable, right? So yeah, basically, oxygen became a commodity which Yeah, it's kind of halfway to a currency, as I see.[0:35:24] Henry: Yeah, they were proto currency[0:35:28] Yuta: on young and from there, yeah, you eventually get to Hey, talks about precious metals have always been very popular. Ah, forms of currency because, says most important beacon split them apart. And then you can also put them back together without altering their value. Easy. Can you refuse the metals? Melton in season[0:35:56] Henry: and they have a really scarcity as well. It's not easy to counterfeit it.[0:36:01] Yuta: Yeah, and then this goes to my original point where talks about when the gold mines in America were discovered over. Uh oh, but I[0:36:12] Henry: just was still happening at the time.[0:36:15] Yuta: Yeah. Yeah, that And let's Yes, 70 76. Yeah, that's where reading[0:36:23] Henry: you and always California. Yeah.[0:36:27] Yuta: Which? I don't think it's happened at this at this point. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I think this happens way. But anyways, he says the value of gold in Europe went down to 1/3 of its virginal value because the amount of labor required to produce gold became dramatically less after, the gold mines were discovered because it's easy to find gold and dig it out. And if you have, you know, a scarcity in in nature than you have to work a lot harder to get smaller amounts,[0:37:06] Henry: isn't I think this is. He doesn't mention it in here. But there's another similar story of when Spain was conquering South America. They found a bunch of gold mines there as well, and also got a lot of gold from the Incas and the Aztecs and all that. And they brought all the gold back to Seo hand It was it was, uh,[0:37:29] Yuta: around with. There wasn't original point. yeah. OK, so that wasn't[0:37:35] Henry: even worth it to bring it back to Spain because it was so deep about devalued by having so much.[0:37:43] Yuta: yeah. So that was my point about, you know, labour being force for Adam Smith, the value behind currency of the OCR. Different meeting, you know?[0:37:57] Henry: Oh, yeah, I I agree with that. Yeah,[0:38:00] Yuta: OK. Do you agree with Smith?[0:38:05] Henry: Do I agree that labour is what is money value? Yeah. Ah, yes. But I think that it might over simplify it to say it like that because it's not. It's not the labor. Ah, to be able to make something like that. It's more that the labour required to actually produce a valid one. So, for example, he describes how gold coins were given and silver coins were given stamps of approval by some centralized authority in order to show that, you know, it's ah has the right amount of the metal in it. So it actually I was able to require that much labor to create something I thought, but you could, in theory, counterfeit it by not putting as much labor in it, but still getting a stamp. So there's a little bit of marginal room for, problems with that. But[0:39:10] Yuta: I think that's a little counterfeit. Money is a little different. I think that's saying this is like the kind of currency where there is value to it, but you're kind of I'm faking it. And, like the labor that Smith is talking about, isn't the labor that goes into stamping right? It's it's labor that goes into what you can purchase with it.[0:39:36] Henry: Well, I think that to an extent. Actually, it is the labor that goes into stamping it. It's not the labor of like, actually, you know, taking a stamp and doing that. It's the labor of doing that, validly getting a valid[0:39:48] Yuta: Samp. wait, what's what's not labour?[0:39:54] Henry: Well, it's hard to do that t get a valid stamp. You have to go through some process.[0:40:01] Yuta: But why? Why would that give something? Value it?[0:40:05] Henry: Well, here's here's what I imagine is like Imagine there's 100 gold coins, but only half of them have stamps of approval, right? You know, then only the gold coins was stamps of, well, the gold coins with stance approval have a certain value. And the gold coins without the sensor approval have a lesser value.[0:40:25] Yuta: I don't I don't think so. Because, like, if I just if I got some locks and puts in stamps on them, they wouldn't have value. I mean,[0:40:35] Henry: right, right. Because it's not the value of getting your own stamp on the coin. It's the value of getting a certain valid sample on the coin. And that is limited. Like, let's say they only allowed some 50 stamps. Then it's gonna be really hard to get another stamp.[0:40:56] Yuta: Okay, this is funny, because I actually disagree with Adam Smith. Okay, I also disagree with you, uh,[0:41:05] Henry: might be stretching the term of, like, what? Labour is the flying to here. But what what were you gonna say?[0:41:14] Yuta: And also you're disagreeing with Adam Smith. Ah, yeah, your your, So I guess, Yeah. I mean, I can go with that example. Maybe I get a bunch of people, and we agreed Teoh, you know, agree on a stamp to put on rocks, and then we put them on, you know, a limited number of rocks on 10 rocks not still make those rocks valuable. There's be something behind it. Give value to those rocks. Yes, this is Yeah, This sounds very philosophical. Maybe maybe this[0:41:54] Henry: Well, so what we're talking about by value here is the value of the things that you can trade for. Ah, the rocks, right? Or the labor that goes into the things you can trade the rocks[0:42:05] Yuta: worth. I think that's the question. It's why do why does Currency of Valium? Well, if[0:42:12] Henry: it does have value, that would be the value. Right?[0:42:15] Yuta: Well, that's one answer to the question, but that's kind of assuming an answer already.[0:42:20] Henry: So this is why I think so. I I definitely am stretching it. I didn't reed this anywhere in his book, but going to your example with rocks, right? I think that the reason that your rocks no one would accept them like you would be able to trade them for anything is because it's too easy to create a counterfeit rock. It takes a very little labor Teoh counterfeit one of the rocks[0:42:48] Yuta: in my exit. On my next example, I would I had assigned with the community of people to only recognize this particular stamp, and I'll just say, you know, you can't counterfeit. There's only 10 of the rocks. It's a limited spy.[0:43:05] Henry: Yeah, but you don't know where old 10 rocks are it every time, right? Every[0:43:09] Yuta: time I try to rock some that you do.[0:43:12] Henry: Okay. Well, then I guess that it's really hard to counterfeit because you know where all the rocks are. So it's impossible. So that's about[0:43:21] Yuta: it. That's the set up of the new. So do they have value?[0:43:26] Henry: I think that they would have more value than if they were counterfeit. Herbal? Yes.[0:43:32] Yuta: Why? But they wouldn't like the rocks there. Still useless like nobody want. Right? Why would anyone, yeah, take anything[0:43:46] Henry: for the rocks? Because they have guaranteed scarcity. it's just like how we use dollars, right? The dollar is, you know, doesn't take a lot of material to make a dollar,[0:44:01] Yuta: but there's a lot of things that are scarce but that are worthless. Give me an example. okay. I mean, I could make ah painting a really shitty pain you, and there's only one of them, but it's worthless. Give to anyone but me.[0:44:25] Henry: Well, they might be easy to counterfeit that painting because no one you know, paying attention to your painting so no one's keeping track of where it is and all that only, gosh, paintings are very valuable, and there's a lot of effort put into making sure that you don't have a counterfeit. So that's part of why they have value. If no one could tell which the counterfeit was, then they wouldn't have as much value.[0:44:54] Yuta: It's not OK if paintings were counter for the ball, but they would have less value by. It's not the fact that they're scarce. That makes them valuable. Is I could I mean, I think you you also changed my scenario to I mean, I could just say in my scenario, my painting is not gonna credible. You know? I put it online and it's yeah, whatever. Whatever I put in a bank vault, whatever. so you know, I think it makes it valuable. It wouldn't be valuable. Would still be junk. I[0:45:38] Henry: do get the intuition you're going for, and I'm trying to think of how you would justify the other side. yeah.[0:45:46] Yuta: Let me Come on. The other side could just not have a[0:45:52] Henry: I think, though, that there is something to this, that scarcity is an important part of why certain money has value.[0:46:01] Yuta: No, I I agree. If something isn't scare, Senate can't serve as a store of value. But I don't think that's, uh okay.[0:46:11] Henry: But it's not sufficient to make something valuable.[0:46:14] Yuta: Yeah, and it's almost besides the point I want to say, and I think Smith Yeah, maybe off off reed closer. See what he would say? But if he does it, and five, the labour or the value with the labor.[0:46:34] Henry: Yeah, I think you're right. Ah, that one of the so. Another reason that would sorry. Another factor in determining the value of your painting is how much effort went into Or you know, how much labor went into the creation of the painting, right? And if it didn't really take much effort like you're not a good painter and you didn't spend your entire life on this painting, then[0:46:56] Yuta: I mean, honestly, if I spent 100 hours on a painting, I think it would still be pretty much worthless on the market.[0:47:05] Henry: Well, right, because you're about painter, it's labour's equally valuable. Right?[0:47:12] Yuta: Okay. It's okay. so, yeah, all Aiken explain Smith for for the listeners a little bit on this point where he says, Yeah, it's not just, you know, the number of hours that you put in that is the value behind currency. Uh huh. Okay. yeah, he says, it's labour, but you have to take into account the number of years that you want that went into learning the skill to produce labor and yourself taking to count the intensity of labor. So, like 10 hours of hard work could be more labour than 20 hours of lazy work or someone with 10 years of experience could, used more labour in in an hour that in someone with no experience in towers, eso and this I think, Yeah, I'm Is that Do you agree with that? Um,[0:48:19] Henry: yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking about. So yeah, I think, but that's how you can differentiate labor. And it's so it's not just the exact thing that you did. It's everything that was required to come to that point that you could do that.[0:48:36] Yuta: Yeah, And I think you made a comment along these lines, but I think this is I mean handing. He massively stretched the definition of labor here. I did not good. Yeah. So this is one of my points of disagreement with him, Which by, by the way, it's totally I mean, I think this was so great of work so far, and I'm gonna definitely reed the whole thing, so I don't mean it's not still see a gotcha. You know, 300 years, I e hopefully reason made progress. That's yeah, it's not impressive at all. You just disagree, but, uh yeah, I do disagree on this point. and this kind of young it kind of starts up this point were he stretches the definition of labor so much that it basically to me, I think he acquits it with value, Basically, because he doesn't If you just talk to like a regular person, Labour is, you know, the amount of effort you put into stuff basically or the amount of work. And if, yeah, if someone with 10 years of experience does just some highly specialize thing, I don't know. To me, that doesn't seem like, a lot of labor went into the exact[0:50:05] Henry: like, if you're a Web designer and you goto work and you sit and watch you two for eight hours, and then Stanton our programming then that's not a lot of labor, even though you're paid a ton of money. Yeah,[0:50:17] Yuta: so, Yeah. Good example. Yes. A Smith would say that person put in. Let's say they make, $150,000 a year and morning working, you know, at a grocery store. Full time makes, let's say, 30,000. Ah, year, Smith would say, My reading is the programmer put in five times more labour than the grocery store clerk?[0:50:46] Henry: Roughly. Yeah. I mean, there are other factors that go into determining your salary as well, but that is one of the major ones.[0:50:54] Yuta: Well, I wouldn't Smith say. I mean, that is what span currency. But then anyways, yes. So he would identify it. Obviously not with, like, the physical labor, which is, I think, kind of what you would normally think of Labour's mean, But he would have been fired with instead. kind of. The programmer spent many years in school learning to program Probably yes, pro four years in college for most rumors, something that I'm not maybe a couple years of experience. while this clerk didn't put in and then So if you have all those up labour of the parameters five times more than the labour of the grocery store clerk[0:51:46] Henry: yeah, that is that is an interesting observation. I I think you're right that Ah, he is equating labor and value. But I I wonder if this is a mistake, though I maybe he intends to do that. And he's trying to show that what we think of us Labour really should be encompassing. What we refer to is value.[0:52:13] Yuta: I I think he's trying to do that. But I think it is confused because he's trying to explain, You know, with book is the wealth of nations. It's trying explain, like, what is it behind? Yeah, currency that has value. Like why do people, care about accumulating these, bits of currency? it's not obvious that, you know, I mean, for a long time, currencies didn't have value yet to actually barter. And so there's something behind it. It's and then he's saying, It's the labor, so that that seems to me. It's like if you say labor, is what gives things, value it. I think it's a specific answer, you know, a clear answer. And then, if you kind of conflate labor with value than it's almost like you're not answering the question at all,[0:53:16] Henry: you might even call his. You might even calls approach a labour theory of value. So yeah, just completely not the lever theory of value.[0:53:29] Yuta: No, it is. I think that's that's when it's going, Yeah, where is going to go next? That actually saw a super spies? Because in a class refreshing, your yeah, I read a lot of capital by Karl Marx, and eating Tree starts off. Basically, this is almost the same exact way, except he starts with, Ah, currency and labour are and value instead of I'll Smith starts with specialization all the time. They're pretty similar. And then, yeah, in my understanding from three years ago, this is, the same argument that Karl Marx gave. He even has the same examples. Basically, I think he made a views diamonds instead of gold. But I think he probably talked about gold to But how? Diamonds are very hard to get. You have to like they're in after our something. And then just people spend. It's like he kind of describes how hard it is to mine diamonds. And he says, That's why diamonds are very valuable on bits. Eso it's the labor. That's the store for the what backs value behind no currency and capital and young. I mean, from there it goes, you know, Ah ha, you is the same argument, which really surprised me. I mean, when I read Marx is book, it just It was just, like, totally ridiculous to me,[0:55:16] Henry: huh? But now that it says it now, it's fine. No, no, I e no. Well, I think, though, so[0:55:26] Yuta: Oh, Adam Smith came way before marks, If I remember correctly, so I mean and I'm pretty sure marks. Yeah. You know, he had the benefit of hindsight a little bit[0:55:38] Henry: to to that. Ah, this is just a tangential point. But this marks. Do you think he also is talking about it in the sense of that, certain labor can be differentiated like some labor is more valuable than other labor.[0:55:56] Yuta: Yeah, he, talks about specialization. I remember that specifically and then talks about Yeah, kind of. And he wrote this 18 67 came out Capital. See, he has almost 100 years on up on Smith. So I think there's more, you know, special efficient at this point. I can't Yeah, I can't remember exactly. I'll look into it. exactly how he explains the differences in the value of labour for, like, information workers. Basically[0:56:39] Henry: Well, what? I always interpreted the Marxist for you to be. But maybe I don't have a clear view, as I thought is that, it doesn't matter what people want. It's not turned by the market how valuable your thing is. It's just determined by how much effort you put into making. The thing that's about valuable it is, and you don't seem too problematic with that is that then all labor is basically of the same value because it's just the same amount of effort there are. You know, it's measured in amount of effort you put into it, but clearly I think that what ah Smith is trying to villainy between different labour's that have different value is some labor is more valuable if it's mawr demanded. Like if more people want it,[0:57:33] Yuta: well, I don't think I mean, I agreed up to that last point. I don't He doesn't bring in whether people want the commodities so far in the book. I think he says, unifies value with labor, and I think he's the same with marks on that point.[0:57:58] Henry: Maybe they differentiate later than I. I guess I would have to read it again. But I interpreted as, that's part of what he meant by not all labour has the same Ah, like, you know, great value. Some labour's worth twice as much of the labour for certain reasons.[0:58:20] Yuta: Yeah. Okay. All of godson quotes[0:58:25] Henry: about reed weaken. Okay, You wanna say some puts?[0:58:32] Yuta: okay, here it is, the real price of everything. What? Everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. right. The value of any commodity, therefore, to the person who possesses it and who means not user consumed himself. But to exchange it for other commodities is equal to the quantity of labour which enables him to purchase or command labor. Therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities. Yeah, and that just seems like pure labor theory of value. Mm. Thank you. Yeah. And I agree with your impression of marks. I think that is what Marx says. And I also think that's what it says. Okay.[0:59:36] Henry: Okay. Yeah, I e think I'm coming to a better idea now. Yeah, I think the differentiation comes later. They do agree that labour is the basis for value, but and, you know, it will come most later where they disagree about some things[0:59:51] Yuta: and also like the beginning part. I think I don't think like Marx understood much of what Smith was saying. First part about specialization from what I remember, and it's kind of weird abuse to me. It seems like if he specialized, it allows you to, Even if he put in the same amount of work, it allows you to be wildly more productive and, you know, better compensated as a result because of you know, how your labor is organized and yeah, I thought the first the entire point of the first few chapters was that how you organized labor can, you know, increase the productivity of a group of people by 102 100 times. And to me, That's just those all seem, like arguments against the labor theory of value. It, you know, taken Teoh, if you just extend those arguments out a little bit. So, you know, I think clearly the first part of that book is very much, not like Marks. And yeah, it was a little confusing to me. Not that second part. Yeah, it seems to me to be in opposition with first part.[1:01:15] Henry: Ah, I guess that so in the same way that having put effort into a skill say, right man will increase the the amounts of labour you're capable doing and given time, I think that he would also say that by being in a some organizational structure that will also increase the amount of value or the amount of labor that you're able to dio here. I can see kind of your original point, which is that he's kind of using labour in a weird way.[1:01:51] Yuta: Yeah, And you're of Freudian slip.[1:01:54] Henry: Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. So they're doing the same, like, you know, they're putting in the same Maybe effort and value are better. Words sees. Yeah, So they put the same effort. Uh oh, that's are, you know, I I know. But[1:02:10] Yuta: even less true effort just seems more, clear. We not value. but yeah, yeah, it does seem like Adam Smith's idea of labor or definition of labour becomes very tortured at this point where you would identify just busy specialized. Let's say he's one of those examples like, Let's say, someone makes was a pin maker said he made pins for 10 hours a day and he produced 100 pins. Well, it's I'm all Smith, I think uses 20 pins a day something. What is it? You know, it's a lot of work to participant, and you want to read about that. And so you didn't read the book, and then he joins the factory and then with 10 other people. Let's say he brute. He produces £5000 a day. altogether. Yeah, You? Yeah. So yeah. Hey, became dramatically more productive. And I guess Smith would say he put in more labour into it, but e did not find out with education. Really? the I mean, maybe you needed a little bit of training, but not much. And also, if you just took the counterfactual of whether you go into the factory or on your own. You know, the amount of flirting you need to go on your own is lot closure. but yeah, so I mean, yeah, that definition of flavor where the person working in the factory puts in, you know, 100 times more labour, whatever or whatever numbers is kind of tortured definition of flavor from[1:04:03] Henry: the way that you phrase it is a little difficult. I think it may be. Here's ah way you could say is that hey, puts in it requires more labour of him.[1:04:18] Yuta: Yeah, that I mean, that doesn't seem true.[1:04:22] Henry: Well, I guess that the intuition is that he's putting in the same amount of effort, right? It requires the same on effort on his part. Just in that, those 10 hours what he's doing, he's putting, you know, the same amount of calories towards You don't work. Yeah, try it left. So in that sense, he's not doing anything extra. So what would you call it that is increasing when he's working in the factory?[1:04:50] Yuta: His spot activity, I mean well, that we can all agree on, like Smith and me and you[1:04:58] Henry: so maybe is it that he's conflating effort and productivity,[1:05:05] Yuta: which is the same as conflating labor and ah, value.[1:05:10] Henry: Yeah. Okay, I see your 0.1.[1:05:15] Yuta: Yeah, but then Okay. So[1:05:17] Henry: I think, though, that it's not so suffered because I think that you could conceive like it's possible to conceive of effort and productivity in a unitary concept concept. It's sort of just has those two things as factors.[1:05:36] Yuta: wait. What? Ok, so what? Even this effort. And then I didn't understand your point.[1:05:44] Henry: So I would say that I'm just kind of coming up with us, but I'm trying to work along with how you're describing it. So effort would be the amount of actual physical actions you have to dio in order to complete size. We were actually mean. Yeah, sure. I'm avoiding a labor just because he uses it differently and I don't want to be like this. And then productivity would be the actual results of your actions.[1:06:17] Yuta: I Okay, I agree with that on. Yeah,[1:06:24] Henry: I did hide this sort of a Did you can have this sort of unitary concept. Call it labor, which is something of a combination of the amount of effort and the amount of things you produce per effort.[1:06:40] Yuta: I don't understand what e I mean. Okay, but that's ridiculous.[1:06:47] Henry: Well, so imagine I think of it this way. So imagine you're driving your car, right? Your car is going to go at a specific speed. Let's call it, you know, the speed of the car and you're gonna be driving for a certain amount of time. Let's call that the duration of the drive. Then you can have a concept of Thea Mount of Distance you drove, which is going to be determined by the multiplication of the this, the length of time that you drove and the speed at which you drove. So there's no like, you know, it's all intuitive, so maybe you could have in the same case. Ah, your effort on your productivity is theme, amount of stuff he produced per effort that you put in. And then the results of that is your labor.[1:07:41] Yuta: I think I think we should move on, OK, I mean, let's even let's just be having less and less intuitive. I mean, why, Yeah, that's not really very I mean, you can make up some new concept, but but it's not labour.[1:07:59] Henry: Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think I just kind of, you know, I went along with his trajectory and took it A Z was talking about it, but I agree that it he could have done this better. And he's making a conceptual error to complete those concepts.[1:08:19] Yuta: Yeah, I mean, I definitely I guess I get the idea that, you know, we shouldn't It should be our first move to go with Oh, he's wrong But, yeah, just those defenses I don't agree with.[1:08:35] Henry: So do you think we could just have a Labour prime and say That's what he's talking about? Or do you think he's actually saying something false about labour problem? Even[1:08:43] Yuta: I think he's saying something forth,[1:08:47] Henry: and that's because, what he describes his labor isn't actually what value is,[1:08:56] Yuta: Well, he says Labour. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he says Labour's behind the value of commodities. You know, the quote red so that pretty much exactly. And I think that's wrong. And of course, yuta Cement by Labour, he meant something else than he could be right. But I mean, Labour's labor, you can't just make up your own definitions of words and then be right.[1:09:20] Henry: Yeah. So I guess then, Ah, it could be that were either disagreeing with his definition of labor or were disagreeing with some claim about labor.[1:09:35] Yuta: well,[1:09:37] Henry: so this is back to the definitions are going feeling We're gonna bring this up every single time. E[1:09:44] Yuta: guess it gets a little, you know, model.[1:09:47] Henry: And I find the argument of the definition obviously to be an interesting. So I just sort of accepted that the way he's using it. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about labor[1:09:57] Yuta: way. But that's not way. Oh, no. I just gets even more confusing. The lamer is a word,[1:10:03] Henry: you know, E Yeah, I know. But I find that easier to do when I was reading rather than replace Labour was something else. Every time I thought.[1:10:15] Yuta: I guess you okay, if yeah, maybe this is This makes it clear. if he's right about if he has the right definition flavor, then I would say he's wrong about, you know, equating labor and value. But if he has the right definition or it only have you Yeah. Made up definition than he's right. But also he's not saying anything. I mean, he's not explaining what the value of commodities drives from,[1:10:52] Henry: I guess I might subtly disagree, but that's fine. We can move on.[1:10:57] Yuta: Yeah, but he's an explanation of the value of commodities. Is I'm I mean, if it's a circular definition, that doesn't help, right? You want to bring in something new, that grounds value, and that has some explanatory value. So Labour feels like it. It would, and it would if it were true. But[1:11:21] Henry: right as you're saying, like he's using this word labor as if it was some other concept that he's bringing into the picture. But actually, he's just redefining value to be or redefining Labour to be value. Yeah, and so nothing actually was explained.[1:11:37] Yuta: Yeah, I'm definitely going to read the rest of this, so maybe it'll make things more clear on.[1:11:44] Henry: I got a sense from what we read so far that he was actually talking about something, and that thing, I assumed, was what he meant by labor. Eso. That's why I didn't have as much of a problem with it. But I can see use your position being different.[1:12:02] Yuta: Yeah. Also, I don't know to me. Yeah, the first part. The logical. It's so weird because the first part to me, it just seems like an art. An explanation of why labour isn't what gives value to wealthy society.[1:12:23] Henry: Oh, yeah? And then you completely floats it on time.[1:12:26] Yuta: Yeah. Just example about the poor tribes. Like even. You know, he explicitly says, Like, in poor times, everyone is basically fully employed In rich societies, lots of people are unemployed. but how can that be? I'm in straightforwardly. His explanation seems to explain why. You know, societies with less labor, are wealthier and ideas with basically everyone laboring full time the victim, but yeah. Weaken. We've been circling around this point.[1:13:08] Henry: Yeah. So we've talked about money and we started talking about labour. Is there anything I'll see when it's ah, odd?[1:13:23] Yuta: I think we covered the first. Yeah, the two parts that I am wanted to cover. yeah, I had something, but I've forgetting. Do you have anything final? Teoh?[1:13:42] Henry: There was a section on where he talks about how prices are determined. Do you? Did you go to that part?[1:13:51] Yuta: I don't think so.[1:13:52] Henry: Okay. Yeah. Then Weaken Weaken To do that next time. Yeah, but maybe I could just bring him one last thing about the money Example. So I was trying to get to something, and I want to see what you think of it. so this was the thought experiment is that you have 100 gold coins and 50 of them are stamped right, you know, And it's been decreed by the authority. The only 50 of them are gonna be stamped, but they're not, you know, kept track of it all every moment. So it's possible to counterfeit it if you're able to somehow get a sample. But the factor that I want to consider changing is how much or how hard is it to get a counterfeit stamp? I think that if it's really hard, like, practically impossible, then it would be relatively easy and straightforward to use those stamped gold coins as currency. But if it was basically a Z Z is coming up with your own stamp in your house and that would get you a valid looking stamp, then I think it would be impossible to use them as currency or at least they would be severely devalued. Yeah, so I think that well, it might not be the only factor. I think that it's a very important factor for determining the value of a currency is how easy it is counterfeit.[1:15:22] Yuta: yeah. I mean, I think I agree. I would phrase that as it's an important doctor for allowing something to be a currency, Yeah, but yeah, I think where we are basically making the same point.[1:15:41] Henry: But I think what's interesting about it, which will get to I think what you were trying to say is thought, the purpose of having the stamps in the first place was not to somehow, you know, create it as a currency like there wasn't a concept of thought. Even the purpose was to guarantee that that particular coin had been weighed and measured toe contain a certain amount of the metal inside. Right, That was a 1,000,000 stamp. The stamp was not just an empty signal, like we have allowed this many gold coins like I oppose in my experiment. Ah, but it was, ah, measure of how much actual metal was inside of it. Of a certain you know, purity. Ah, so that while you're trading, you don't have to check that yourself. Yeah. So the real value of the stamp is a convenience E, but it didn't actually, the the Salafist the Value of the stamp the purpose of this stamp. But the value of the currency is still in the metal itself and the labour took to create that matter.[1:16:52] Yuta: I think that Yeah, this is Remember what I was going to bring up? And it's It's about this kind of, so, yeah, where do we think value comes from? I think this is a good final topic. And because it's about what Smith wrote about Banana and explaining what he said. So you So you're saying that the value is in the metal, but not in the stand? Yes. All right.[1:17:22] Henry: Yes. I'm sort of trying to disprove my original thought experiment what was wrong with it.[1:17:27] Yuta: And you're also disagreeing with Adam Smith. B is here and fights the value with labour. Oh, really? Into what you can obtain with the currency.[1:17:41] Henry: well, I thought he I thought I was agreeing with him on this point at least, which was that the value of the currency is the amount of labor that went into producing the metal that goes in the currency.[1:17:53] Yuta: Oh, so wait. Oh, I can I thought, by the values in the metal I thought you meant in the physical metal. No. Oh, so it's OK, OK, that sounds like it's not in the metal. It's an the labor that went into Yeah, I[1:18:13] Henry: guess. I mean, the value of the metal meaning the labour took to get that medal[1:18:19] Yuta: okay on this supplies for everything like[1:18:23] Henry: right. But in certain defined Yeah, like he refers the Scotland again. They would trade and nails, sometimes as currency.[1:18:34] Yuta: But then the[1:18:35] Henry: purpose of it was that it took some labour in order to create the currency and that determines the value of the currency. And you can trade that around Ah, based on the value of labor that went into the currency for other labor.[1:18:50] Yuta: Okay, this is a little bit different from Smith because he makes the distinction, but it's the value of the things you can obtain with the commodity. That's the value of the quantity. And you're saying it's it's the value of or its labor that went into obtaining the actual currency. That's the value of the currency.[1:19:15] Henry: Yeah. Overall, Yes. So that would also incorporate counterfeiting.[1:19:21] Yuta: So but then what if you use something like, what's a seashells? Air. Very Ah, easy to obtain initially. But they're in the limited supply. So there a good commodity, then what? But then, you know, they're rare, so they become extremely valuable. How couldn't you? In that case, he couldn't identify the value of the commodity with labor. Right when[1:19:55] Henry: you say commodity or you're referring to the seashell. Yeah, I think I think you would. I think that because it's a rare it's harder and harder to find new seashells. So requires more labour.[1:20:14] Yuta: yeah. Okay, um[1:20:18] Henry: and because that it's harder to find new seashells, you can make it more expensive to get existing seashells and therefore the existing C cells have more value.[1:20:31] Yuta: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I agree that it went become harder and harder to get, you know, more seashells as they become more scarce. But I think that's not where the value comes from because I mean again, this is just the same point. But just be something is scarce. Doesn't make it valuable.[1:20:53] Henry: Yeah, I guess we haven't really addressed that. I think I need to think about that more. I'm not really putting a lot of good content into interesting that more just random rent rambling, but[1:21:06] Yuta: because there are a lot of hard to obtain things that are worthless,[1:21:11] Henry: right? Exactly. Lots of unique artwork that is not worth anything. Yeah, but in terms of the social thing, I actually I like the way of thinking about this, That so it's think of it in terms of, ah, game that you want to get a seashell, right? You have two options. You can either go and look for a seashell, which is gonna take some amount of effort, or you can buy a social by, you know, trading in some way. So let's say you have another thing that's worth amount like that. You put some effort into getting so you can trade that for a special right. So then you will decide what to do based on how hard it is to find Ah, seashell, and how easy it is or how much labor you know, labor value. It costs to buy a seashell. But it turns out that people selling she sells know how much labor it takes to find a new seasonal. So what they'll do is they will make their seashells as's close to that price as possible. And therefore the seashells have that price. Well,[1:22:26] Yuta: if they didn't have the price, they wouldn't bother to find he[1:22:30] Henry: sells right. Well, if they were price lower than a ah, if they were priced lower than it costs to go find a seashell in terms of labour vaccine, then you would prefer to buy seashells rather than go look for new ones. Right? So they can jack up the price all the way to exactly how much labor costs to go find a new one and they'll get the maximout out of their seashell.[1:22:58] Yuta: Wait, wait. I wouldn't, but okay, if the price of the sea shell for the seller is the price to obtain them and it wouldn't be worth them, they wouldn't make a profit. So it wouldn't be worth the time to find seashells, right? Like the value the money that you get from selling the seashell would have to be higher than the value he spent on obtaining official that's the Prophet[1:23:30] Henry: E. I guess that since it's a currency, you shouldn't be really profiting off of it. I think that it would be a pretty matched market,[1:23:42] Yuta: but not proof. Wall. But then, if it's perfectly not so, then you wouldn't get any new seashells we could. OK, we could do this in terms of Bitcoin lately.[1:23:55] Henry: I mean, that's kind of what we've been talking around the whole time. Yeah,[1:23:59] Yuta: I guess it is kind of like an idealized It's like, Yeah, the platonic ideal of currency. Basically, Yeah. So great. Yeah. Yes. as long as the internet exists So I guess you don't even need the Internet. Probably, But, and he was[1:24:23] Henry: don't need the internet in orderto half that coin. But you do need it in order to mind. Bitcoin.[1:24:28] Yuta: Yeah, Yeah. so late? Yeah, When does someone mine the quee

Caitlin Mitchell from EB Academics joins the podcast to discuss how we can handle constructive criticism well as teachers. You can reach Caitlin at: https://ebacademics.com/ https://www.instagram.com/ebacademics/ Thank you to our sponsors: eSpark Learning go.espark.app/educator and Hand 2 Mind https://www.hand2mind.com/     Carrie (00:04): Hello and welcome to educators to educators podcast. I'm Carrie Conover and this is episode number 67: How to Handle Constructive Criticism Well. I'm Carrie, the founder and CEO of educators to educators. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Today we have a very special guest and we are going to talk about a topic that can be kind of tough - constructive criticism. Before we get started talking to our guest, Caitlin, I want to remind all of you that we have recently launched e2e modules. E2e modules are courses that you can take to learn a new skill or explore professional development. We have recently relaunched Classroom to Boardroom. Classroom to Boardroom is a module that will teach you everything you've ever wanted to know about working for an education company. As many of you know, if you know my story, I went from being a veteran teacher in Chicago public schools to an executive at Discovery Education. Carrie (01:08): I've been there, I've spent eight years in education technology. In this module, I teach you all the various types of jobs out there in the education world, the different types of companies you can work for, the salaries, all of the different options you've always wanted to know. I really believe that sometimes teachers yearn for more and want to leave the classroom and they shouldn't feel guilty about that, and so I created this module to teach you how to transition out of the classroom, but stay in education. I don't want you going to work in retail or for a bank. I want you to stay in education and use your treasures and talents. You can learn more about the Classroom to Boardroom module, at educators2educators.com/career. Carrie (01:57): Caitlin Mitchell is one of the founders of EB academics along with co-founder Jessica. Katelyn and Jessica are the authors, teachers, and curriculum creators behind the EB Teachers' Club and Writing Instruction: A Proven Approach. They have both been ELA teachers and ELA coaches for more than 25 years combined and curriculum developers since 2012. Caitlin and Jessica created AB academics to help make the lives of middle school ELA teachers easier while supplying them with quality and engaging ELA lessons for their students. They want teachers to walk into their classroom each day with confidence, knowing that they have quality content to teach. They both received their master's degrees in secondary education and curriculum design from Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, California. Caitlin and Jessica currently reside in the Bay area with their families. I am so excited to have Caitlin talking about this really tough topic today, so let's get started with Caitlin. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining us on the educators 2 educators podcast. Caitlin (03:18): I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Carrie (03:22): This is a long time in the making, don't you think? Caitlin (03:24): Oh yes, totally. We've been talking about it, I feel like for months. Caitlin (03:28): Yes. I'm so glad that you crossed my path. Gosh, it was last November was that November of 2018 that we first met. And you agreed to be a presenter in the first e2e New Year Reboot. And you've been in every conference since, so grateful that I have met you and that you're sharing your talents with the e2e teachers. Caitlin (03:48): Oh well thank you so much. The feeling is so mutual and I just think that what you are doing for teachers is incredible. Carrie (03:54): Well thank you. And today you are going to join us to talk about something that is so important, which is how to handle constructive criticism. Caitlin (04:03): Yes. And I know that's a hard topic for some people to even wrap their minds around talking about. Carrie (04:10): Well and I think a lot of it is because as teachers we put our heart and soul into the classroom and so it is hard sometimes to hear that maybe everything we're doing isn't perfect. Caitlin (04:22): Yes, it is very difficult. And I think that comes to absolutely with what you said, we put our heart and soul into what we're doing, but I just think it's not really a part of the profession in a way that we're being coached all the time. You know, like in other professions I'm talking, you know, NBA, MLB professional athletes have coaches every day teaching them how to get better. And I think that if that was what the educational world was like, that it was just kind of that same idea, it wouldn't be as big of a deal and it would be more commonplace obviously, to have people come into our classrooms and helping us get better and perfect our craft over time. So I think that that a lot of that comes because it's just not something that we have often, you know? Carrie (05:06): Yeah. Well it's interesting when I was going over our notes today, by the way, you guys, we always talk about, you know, three subtopics on ETV. I'm obsessed with the number three. So we're going to talk about 0.1 being being proactive as a teacher. A 0.2 is how to create a school culture where you know, it's a culture of growth. And then we're going to wrap up talking about changing our mindset as teachers. And while I was reading through your notes, Caitlin, I had this flashback to my first year of teaching in Chicago public schools. Can I take you back there? Caitlin (05:40): Yes, please. Carrie (05:41): Okay. So I was a career changer. So I was like 26 or 27 when I started teaching. So I had a little bit more of life under my belt and I had my principal come in for my first formal observation. And back then in CPS we were old school and we have these green binders. If anyone's taught in CPS, they're shaking their heads right now these green, binders and inside there were papers with these grids on them. And that's where you kept attendance. Okay. It was, it was the most complicated system I've ever seen. If a student was tardy, you put one slash if they were absent, there was two. Carrie (06:21): If they were excused, you put a dot. If it was unexcused, it was like circled in red and this is all paper and on and on.. So my principal comes in for my first observation, I'm a brand new teacher. I felt like I knocked it out of the park. What they used to do in observations is they wrote on this carbon copy paper and then they would leave the copy on your desk and walk out and leave. So I was so excited to finish my lesson. I walked over and I looked at the copy and I looked down and I had like excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent on everything except for at the very bottom it was checked like unsatisfactory,on attendance book. Caitlin (07:02): Oh my goodness. Carrie (07:03): And it said use black ink ALWAY. Caitlin (07:07): Oh my gosh. I just can't, that's whole, I'm sorry. That's a hilarious story. Carrie (07:14): That is the feedback. That is the only feedback that I got. And you know, I cried on my prep. Oh, I'm sure. I was like, Hey, I know you checked excellent on every other box. And this is like a first year teachers dream, but you only feedback you could take to write in black. It was like use black ink. So anyway, you, you having flashback, but I think you're going to give all of us some really good tips today about you know, how to handle constructive criticism. So let's talk about being proactive. Caitlin (07:49): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so I wanna kind of just go back to what you just said that I think is important to preface the whole episode with is that even though we are going to be obviously observed by our admin, our principals, that observation is not the end all be all of everything. I know it goes into like a lot of our our files and you know, there are some issues around, you know Oh, I can't, I think of the word formal observations, right. You know, and in certain schools but I just want to tell teachers like it does not determine who you are and the type of teacher that you are. Just in the same way that our students test scores do not determine the type of student that our students are. We obviously know there's a much bigger picture behind each kid than the numbers show on a test. It's the same thing when it comes to observations. And I want to give you just really a quick story to that you just made me think of when I interviewed for my position at my most recent school, I did this great lesson on figurative language and same thing, Carrie. I was like, I fricking crushed that. Like I just did a great job, they're totally going to hire me, whatever. And so they hired me, everything was fine. And like two years later I was looking through my file and I found their observation notes from when I did my my gosh sample lesson with the students. Yes. I probably shouldn't have been able to come across it, but it was just in there and I got like bad scores on everything because I didn't say what the objective was. So the whole observation of me was supposed to be focused on me telling the kids what the objective of the lesson was. And because I didn't say that one thing, I got all of these bad marks yet, they still hired me. So it's like you know how they're OBS observing us in the, the criteria that they're observing us on doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good teacher or a bad teacher or any of the sort. Carrie (09:34): Right. Caitlin (09:35): Um it's just an observation. So I just want to preface it with that and I probably shouldn't have been allowed to find that piece of paper that showed all that information. But it's fine to show. It just goes to show like it's one person's opinion. Right, exactly. It's so subjective. And I even went up to my principal afterwards and I was like, really? This is what you guys said about me. You didn't say all of the other amazing things about me cause I had a great relationship with him. He's like, you shouldn't be seeing that. But it was pretty funny. So I just want to preface it with that. Like an observation does not mean that you are a bad teacher or a good teacher. It is one glimpse into who you are as a teacher. Carrie (10:13): Yup, absolutely. So with that being said, we'll start with point number one and that's really, I think it helps a lot to be proactive in building this relationship with your principal, with your colleagues, of people coming into your classroom all the time. Caitlin (10:27): So I think it's really important for you to go out or for us as teachers to go out and ask for feedback before we have that formal observation. So it can be something as simple as just like taking matters into your own hand, going into your principal's office and saying, Hey, I have this great lesson I love for you to come observe me. Let me know your thoughts, any feedback that you have. And what's great about doing that and being proactive is that you are the one who is kind of in control of this situation, right? You're the one asking for an eliciting feedback from your principal. And so I think that that's really helpful because it puts us into this positive mindset of, okay, I'm asking for feedback, I'm asking for criticism as opposed to I have to receive feedback, I have to receive criticism. Carrie (11:14): So that point of being proactive I think is very, very important. I love that so much. And I love the idea even thinking about when I was managing teams, when I worked in ed tech, like I was the boss. Sometimes I can't believe I led people in that way. But anyway I had really good relationships with my managers and sometimes when they would say to me, Hey, like how am I doing in general? I would say sometimes that's hard for me to give you this big broad feedback. What do you want to improve on? What do you want me to look for? What are you feeling insecure about so that I can help you in a better way. And so that is the same I think for when you're being proactive with a principal or an assistant principal and saying, Hey, I would love for you to come in and I've really been working on, you know, flexible seating or grouping or I don't know, whatever it is you can work on. Like give them something specific to come in and look at. Caitlin (12:16): Yes. And I think Carrie, I'm so glad that you said that cause that kind of builds onto the other point I want to talk about about being proactive is that yes you can start with like an a lesson that you're really comfortable with. So I might have my principal come in and observe me teaching a writing lesson that I just know I'm going to knock it out of the park. Right. And then when I ask them to come back in a second time, I can ask them like, Hey, I'm really struggling with this student's behavior. Can you come in and watch this student in class? Let me know. Like what would you do? Like what are some suggestions that you have to help me with this student? So, you know, you can ask them for assistance in behavioral issues. Carrie (12:52): In, in things like you're saying, a flexible seating or content specific if your principal is, you know, has that experience with the content that you're teaching. Caitlin (13:01): Um so asking them, yes, Carrie for specific feedback on certain things that you are struggling with shows initiative. It shows that you care. It shows that you want to get better. And honestly, if I was a principal I would be like, yes, I'm going to help you. Like the, you know, this is a stellar, a teacher right here who obviously wants to improve their craft. I'm going to do everything that I can to support you. Unfortunately, that's not the case for every teacher out there. I wish it was, but I think that it says a lot about you as a teacher taking that initiative to get better and improve your craft. Yeah. And principals have very stressful jobs. Yes. I would never want to be a principal. Carrie (13:36): You can kind of tug at their teacher heart, you know? Can you, I know you like, you are so amazing at this. When you were in the classroom or I've heard you are really strong at this tug at that teacher heart for them and get them back in the classroom because they want more of that. Totally force them to take that stuff. Caitlin (13:52): Yes, yes. The culture of growth for adults. We talk about this all the time about our kids growth mindset. What is it to have a culture of growth at your school? What does that look like? So this was really cool at my, not my most recent school, but one of the schools that I taught at prior when I was in Los Angeles, it's actually the school where I met Jessica, who? Jessica, who, those of you who don't know as the other half of the academics, we have middle school English language arts teacher resources and things like that. Caitlin (14:21): So this is where I met Jessica at this school in LA and one of the years that we were there, our principal decided that, you know, he was going to come into our classrooms a lot more often. He wasn't just going to come in for formal observations. He came into our classrooms, you know, every other week, just sat for 10, 15 minutes, interacted with the kids, participated in the lesson with us. And it took a lot of pressure off of the times when he did come in to do the formal observation. So that was one part of the puzzle like that our principal was really invested in helping us grow as teachers. But beyond that, we as teachers were then required to go into every other teacher's classroom for like five or 10 minutes for a super informal observation. So I went into every classroom from TK, so transitional kindergarten all the way up to eighth grade, you know, science and history and math, which I don't know anything about math. Caitlin (15:15): It's a strength of mine at all. But was was really cool about that is that yeah, it was during our prep periods, but it was really invaluable because there, you know, I picked up on so many little like nuances or like a cool idea that one of my colleagues was doing that I never would have seen because why as I, you know, as a seventh and eighth grade ELA teacher was I going to go into a third grade classroom and observed them, well this created so much community of growth and this culture of growth because we were all a part of each other's growth and becoming stronger and better teachers. And it was really cool to have everyone come into my classroom and just see what was happening in our school. You know, we become so isolated in our classrooms, they close it. Are we teaching? Caitlin (15:57): That's it. Well, when you are moving through other teacher's classrooms, it's just an amazing experience. And I have to say that that is a Testament to my principal. That was, he was hands down the best principal I've ever had. And that was a huge part of it. That sounds amazing. And if you don't have that culture at your school and it's something that's important to you, bring it up. Carrie (16:17): Yes. Talking about it, you know, instead of sitting at lunch and complaining about the students that are driving you crazy, which does happen. And often bring this idea to other teachers and say, Hey, what do you guys think about this? And maybe you guys could put together a committee and come to your principal and say, I think we should start this. Cause I do think that having lots of people in your classroom, I had so many people in my classroom all the time that I, it didn't, I didn't even flinch when people walked into my room. And I'm just going to keep on teaching. Caitlin (16:50): And what's great is if you're constantly having other people's ideas, you know, in your brainstorming with other people, you are going to grow. And then when you do get feedback that's not so great. It makes it a lot easier to be receptive to that feedback and be like, okay, you know, I'm not perfect. Some people have other better ideas that I could be taking into my classroom. And so I think just kind of changing that perspective allows you to just grow and be a better teacher. Carrie (17:18): Yes. And you have to take those things that kinda hurt. Like when you hear a feedback I think, and you kind of flinch to it. Yeah. We're going to talk about your mindset as a teacher in a second. I think sit on that for a few days before you do any kind of reacting to it and say, and I talked about this in one of our previous podcasts. If you're having that much of a gut reaction, you really need to look hard at it and say, is there some truth to this? Right? Know this about myself and I'm working on it or I've buried it deep inside and I don't want to think about why it hurts so much. I'm like, thinking back to my black ink comment, like I knew I wasn't doing a good job on that attendance book cause I thought it was the most ridiculous thing. Caitlin (18:06): Right. So if you released that way that you should have been using the black ink, the, I wish the 42 year old and me could go back to the 27 year old woman and say, just sit on it for a couple of days and your realize that this is actually a good thing. Like maybe you wouldn't think of anything else to say. Caitlin (18:27): You know what, I was really focused on that one little blacking talk about our mindset and yes, I'm going to change our mindset. Yes, they're able to handle this. So, so often, you know, we talk about our students like you're not going to get it perfect the first time, right? It's all about failing. It's not about succeeding and we learn from our failures. And so we, we tell our students that, well how much of that are we really taking? You know, if we sat back and are like, okay, am I okay with failures? Am I learning from my failures? And I think more often than not, the answer isn't yes for a lot of us, you know? I know it wasn't for me, especially my first year of teaching, if I failed at something, it was like the end of the world, I would cry as opposed to seeing it as a learning opportunity. Caitlin (19:11): And what you just said, if you're 42 year old self could go back to your 26 year old self. I mean I'm 33 I think I sometimes forget how old I am. I'm 33 and you know, I, I just realized that I'm not 42 sorry to interrupt you. I'll give you 42 in a couple of weeks. So I gosh, well happy early birthday. That's hilarious. Now that we have determined how old both of us are, let's talk about how we can change our mindset when it comes to hearing constructive criticism as a teacher. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that this is something that's really difficult for a lot of teachers. I know it was difficult for me in the very beginning of teaching and you know, you want to be good at everything that you do. But I think it's important to really remember that with every failure is going to come and learning opportunity with every problem is going to come a solution. Caitlin (20:01): And so it really is that this thing exists in this binary, right? Whenever you have a failure in your life, regardless of whether or not you can see the outcome, the positive outcome, the success in that moment, which most likely you can't because you're upset and your emotions are really getting the best of you. But just knowing that there is going to be something positive that comes out at the end of that. And so if we're able to separate our emotional state from justice critique that we're getting of this one, quote unquote failure that we might be having or seeing in our classroom, we ultimately are going to have a huge success as a result of that. And so an eight in order to be able to do that, I think it takes a lot of just self-awareness. And I like to think of professional athletes. Caitlin (20:43): Kind of going back to that analogy that we talked about in the very beginning, that all athletes have one person in common. They all have a coach, right? Tom Brady has a coach. Tiger woods has a coach. Regardless of whether or not you hate tiger woods or not, he has a coach. Steph Curry has a coach. All of these amazing athletes all have coaches that are sitting there critiquing them about something in their craft and their skill that they can get better at. Why is teaching any difference? Right? Why is a principal coming into our classroom coaching us on something that we can improve upon any different than what these professional athletes are doing? So if we're able to look at it through that lens, like, Oh, even Steph Curry has a coach, like I can have a coach and I can be okay with that constructive criticism. And at the end of the day, being receptive to that constructive criticism I truly believe is the single best thing that you can possibly do for your students and for your students' success because you ultimately are going to become a better teacher as a result of being receptive to that feedback. Carrie (21:40): I don't know how I could even add to that because it was so amazing. I love when you start getting into it in your passion because you can tell you are very passionate about this. I would have loved to put you in Dan Jones, who was on one of our previous podcasts together in a room. He talked about how professional athletes learn that each time they go out on the field. So every time a major league baseball player goes and plays a game, that is one performance. That is not who he or she is as an app, as a person that doesn't define them. It's one performance. And so I, he was talking about as teachers, it's hard cause we grew up thinking maybe, Oh, I'm going to be just teacher and make all these waves and changes in the world. And so where our heart is in it a lot more than our brains sometimes. As far as like our emotional reaction to things. And so if we can think of your observations as being one performance and you're getting feedback about that one performance, it's not who you are as a teacher. It's not who you are as a human being. So I think you and Dan Jones, we get along really well. We'll have to set up the meeting so we can talk. That would be amazing. Uman I be in a fly on the wall in that meeting? Caitlin (22:51): Yes, absolutely. Well thank you so much for joining us to talk about this. Carrie (22:56): What I really want you to do now is to tell everyone what you've been working on with your partner at Eve academics, where you're headed and where we can all find you. Caitlin (23:04): Yes. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to come on the podcast and talk about something that I'm super passionate about because at the end of the day, this is going to be the thing that makes waves for our students is when we can be okay with constructive criticism and perfect our craft. So AB academics is a company that I co-founded with my partner Jessica, my business partner, Jessica, who I mentioned earlier in this episode and she and I actually taught at that school together where our principal set up the whole fabulous observations for all of us and Eb Academics supports middle school English language arts teachers. Caitlin (23:35): We sell teaching resources on teachers, pay teachers, but we also have a monthly membership as well as an online professional development course for teachers. So our goal is really to support and a much deeper, more meaningful way to really create a partnership with them in a support group with them and walk them through, you know, everything that comes along with being a middle school ELA teacher from writing to reading to creating engaging lessons. Because we really want students to love learning and we want to help our teachers fall in love with teaching. Again. So many of the teachers in our community have said, you know, I've been teaching for 25 years and now I finally love teaching again. I found that spark, that enjoyment, that inspiration to go to class every single day because of what our community has been providing for them. So it's just been a really incredibly moving experience to have an impact on teachers ultimately having an impact on thousands of students across the country and even the world. Carrie (24:31): Amazing. So where can we find you if we want to learn more? Caitlin (24:34): Yeah, so the best place to find us is on Instagram at Eb Academics. You can also find us on Facebook at EB Academics kind of anywhere EB academics is. And then we also have a podcast that we would love to have you come be a listener. We are that a teaching middle school ELA podcast. If you just type in teaching middle school will be like the only one that pops up so you can find us there. Carrie (24:54): That's amazing. Also if you are an e2e member and you are inside of our site there's quite a few presentations. Two of them that come to the top of my mind are the one that you did. Maybe you're not an ELA middle school teacher but you are thinking about going, starting your own business. You did a really great presentation about like working with a partner in a business situation and then the one that you did for the new year reboot a conference around narrative writing. I think any teacher really can get a lot from that, not just middle school ELA. Caitlin (25:27): Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for mentioning those. I had actually forgotten that I did the other one about having a business partner and so you are thinking about going into business. Go watch that because it's very important when you go to create a business partnership because you want to make sure that you create a strong foundation for what you're doing. Cause a lot of things can STEM from having a business partner. It can be very challenging but also fabulous and wonderful. Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I do think that this is going to happen again. Carrie (25:56): So yes, let's do it. A long friendship and partnership with you. So thanks for coming and spending your time and talents with us. Caitlin (26:03): Thank you so much for having me. Carrie (26:05): Thank you so much. Carrie (26:06): Also to our sponsors, eSpark Learning and Hand to Mind. Thank you for sponsoring everything we do here at [inaudible] and for all of you, stay strong out there. I know this is a rough time of year with everything going on with the Coronavirus and getting through all of this stressful time. Some of us aren't, you know, at school right now, or we're waiting to see if our schools are going to be shut down. I'm sending love and peace and happiness to all of you. We will get through this and until next time, my friends keep on teaching on.

The power of being a generalist is a major advantage to an entrepreneur. Join me as I recount my struggle to niche down and specialize until I finally had enough and said, “Screw that! I do not need to specialize in something!” This is my journey to becoming a proud generalist. ----- Automated Transcript Below: Dean Soto  0:00   Hey, this is Dean Soto founder of FreedomInFiveMinutes.com and ProSulum.com. We're here again with another Freedom In Five Minutes podcast episode.   Dean Soto  0:15   Today's topic is this: Specialists in Your Business & in Any Business are Stupid. That and more, coming up...   Dean Soto  0:32   Well, good evening! I just took my son. Right now, we're at his martial arts class. I'm going to be walking around, you're going to hear some cars in the background, but that's okay. Let's just talk. Let's talk, all right?   Dean Soto  0:52   Growing up... Let me let me go rewind the clock a bit. Shall we? Growing up, I always had this issue. It reared its ugly head predominantly in school at first but then it started rearing its head in the workplace too when I started getting into my full time job.   Dean Soto  1:33   During elementary school all the way up into college, I really had no idea what I wanted to do. I remember – gosh, it really was from the time I met my wife when I even decided on an actual true major. I was majoring in Japanese and then I majored in music. Eventually I was like, "You know what? Screw this." I just wanted to get out of school. I wanted to get my degree because my wife wasn't going to marry me if I didn't have it. I'm just going to do business. Business Administration. It was the easiest, it was the fastest. And it looks good on my resume if I was going to get a job that paid well.   Dean Soto  2:33   The thing about Business Administration was – and I still remember to this day – I was working at a company I don't even think exists in the same way anymore. I was working at a company called DMJM+Harris. DMJM Harris, and it was a Civil Engineering company. Within the organization, I want to say there was probably 50 people – everything from civil engineers, structural engineers, to finance to accountants to project schedulers, etc... I was an administrative assistant there.   Dean Soto  2:33   It was really cool because it was one of the funnest jobs. And no joke, it was one of the funnest jobs I had. I couldn't put my finger on why I actually enjoyed that job as much as I did but I'll get to why that is in just a little bit. The thing about this organization was there was obviously a lot of skilled people, especially in structural engineering. They're building bridges or roads or building things that perhaps billions of people are driving over and those things have to be perfect.   Dean Soto  6:02   You might be thinking, "Dean, what's the big deal? Really. It's not that big of a deal."   Dean Soto  6:10   Well, for me, I had already spent years going throughout school and getting hounded by councillors as to what I wanted to do. What cog in the wheel did I want to be, right? And I could never decide. There was nothing. There's nothing where I need to dive into so much. There's nothing where I can fall so deeply in love with this thing that I wanted to go. I dabbled in programming and it was fun. Then I dabbled in music, it was fun. But I can only get so far.   Dean Soto  6:53   Everyone was telling me, "You never want to be a jack of all trades and master of none. You are never going to get rich that way. You are never going to see any success that way."   Dean Soto  7:07   When she said that I was like "Crap, I think I'm totally destined just to be this wandering guy who really doesn't know what he's doing and I'm never gonna make anything of myself."   Dean Soto  7:27   It's interesting because right about that time I was applying to Boeing Aerospace. I did not have my bachelor's degree at that time but I did have a security clearance. That was a big thing for Boeing.   Dean Soto  7:49   In my resume when I was applying, I applied for this industrial security job – I didn't quite know what it was. But it sounded like it wasn't armed security. I wasn't wearing a uniform or anything like that. It was more like protecting government secrets. So, I thought, "Wow that's kind of cool! That sounds pretty interesting."   Dean Soto  8:30   You know, honestly, it was still the "fastest" degree. I'm like, "Screw it. I'm going to be destined to this life anyway. I'm just gonna go for it. I'm just gonna keep going." If I'm going to be this poor jack of all trades, master of none, then that's the way it's going to be. I cannot specialize. It's so hard for me to specialize in anything.   Dean Soto  8:53   Lo and behold, as I was working at this civil engineering company, I ended up getting this callback for the position at Boeing and I had an interview. I ended up getting hired.    Dean Soto  9:18   I'm like, "Wait a minute, this is interesting. I didn't think that this would happen. That's pretty cool."   Dean Soto  9:25   I let everyone know at this civil engineering company that I was working for. They were super happy for me. They offered me a job beforehand but it definitely wasn't nearly as much pay so they were happy for me. They gave me a going away lunch and I went to Boeing.    Dean Soto  9:52   It was there that I was like, "Hmm, this is actually pretty cool..." because the industrial engineering job was pretty General. I mean, it had everything from computer security to document control, document security that had physical security. I was climbing the rafters. I was helping to build buildings. I was doing all of this stuff. This is actually really cool.   Dean Soto  10:19   This whole thing that nobody ever talks about in any type of school that was making good money. And it was perfect for a generalist. As I'm doing this, I'm like, "This is awesome. I like it."    Dean Soto  10:40   But it was only at that time when I started to wonder why I liked that administration job so much. I love that administration job so much because I got to talk and help structural engineers. I was doing formulas, popping and creating elaborate spreadsheets that would auto calculate and auto do all the stuff for these engineers; and learning what they needed, how they needed it to go, what needed to be rounded up, and figure out how to make certain things not round up.   Dean Soto  11:16   I even got to these really specialized way of doing formulas in Excel. I learned a ton of stuff in Excel. And so I'm dealing with structural engineers and project schedules. I'm dealing with all these different people. I'm like, Wow, this is so fun. Yet again, with the industrial security, it was the same thing. I'm dealing with engineers I'm dealing with computer security guys, I'm dealing with IT guys I'm dealing with contractors, construction workers, with all these people. This is so cool, and I loved it.   Dean Soto  11:53   I was getting promoted left and right because it was my wheelhouse. I didn't want to specialize in anything. I love the fact that I knew a good amount of all this stuff. I was learning more and more every day. Oh my gosh, it was so wonderful. It was amazing.   Dean Soto  12:15   I got deep into the computer security side of things. They ended up hiring me as a computer security specialist eventually and that was really amazing as well. I'm getting all excited. I'm obviously making a lot more money with that because it's a more technical job and doing a lot of cool things.   Dean Soto  12:37   And then it all came crashing down. Not money wise, it was fine. Not job wise, everything was fine.   Dean Soto  12:51   I got pigeonholed into computer security. There were two ways out. One, leave my job to get promoted to computer security regional management. That was not going to happen because there was one of those jobs and the person who was already there was going to stay for a long time. There was one position like that in all of the western United States. So that wasn't going to happen.   Dean Soto  13:29   Or, I truly deeply specialize as much as I possibly could into computer security. Well, I tried. I honestly tried my hardest. I tried my hardest to make that happen. I tried so hard to really get nerdy and deep and technical and super specific into computer security.    Dean Soto  13:57   But you know what happened? It was extremely painful to the point where I was getting depressed. I was drinking a lot. I hated my job, I could not see a way out. It was so horrible.    Dean Soto  14:14   Like, for me, it just was killing me. I and it got to the point where because a lot of the stuff that I was doing was much more of project management anyway, I would complete a project super super quickly, and then sit around doing nothing because I really did not like the subject anymore. It was getting so boring. It was super valuable to the company because I can come in, fix what needed to be fixed when it came to getting government compliance with computers and everything like that.    Dean Soto  14:43   They could bring me in when people were failing. That's government inspections and all other stuff. They bring me in, get everything up to speed, get everything fixed, and then boom, we're all done. Everything's good to go. That would happen over and over again. The vast majority of the time – because I was not interested in the subject – I'm like, this sucks, I'm done. I'm trying to do better, but I can't get anywhere because it's too specialized. I was feeling like the biggest failure.    Dean Soto  15:19   It wasn't until I became an entrepreneur where I'm leading probably over 100 people or more in building organizations, when I'm supporting client after client and doing all of this general stuff from accounting to payroll by myself and our core team of four people – the core team of four people – those other people who work for me. They work specifically for my clients doing all of these, that I started to see specializing sucks.   Dean Soto  16:16   I mean, they say, Oh yeah, you can't really make a lot of money if you're not specializing... Yeah, maybe in the employee world. Maybe in the employee world that's true but I'm doing just fine. I can work pretty much as little or as long – as as much as I want to. And I make way more money, and I'm not doing this to brag. I make way more money than I ever did as a specialist. It's not meant to brag.   Dean Soto  16:49   This is for those people out there who are a generalist when you just didn't really know what you wanted to do. This is for you. For all those people who say, "Oh, you need to specialize in something." Screw that. You don't. You don't.   Dean Soto  17:11   There are plenty of opportunities out there. And there are plenty of things that make you so valuable. I like to say that I specialize in generalization. I specialize in being a general. I guess the highest ranking people in the military are their generals. Right? Why are they called generals? Because they know they know a good amount of everything but don't specialize in any of it. And they lead those who are specialized, right?   Dean Soto  17:46   Why is this important? It's important because specializing in your business as well, I think, is so dumb. This is why we have Virtual Systems Architects at ProSulum.com and FreedomInFiveMinutes.com because these guys – I have a core team of four people. They do everything from design to copywriting, recruiting, accounting, payroll, invoicing, accounts receivable, accounts payable... they they do everything. Everything.    Dean Soto  18:19   If I was going to go the traditional route of business, I would have 50 people working for me all in some stupid department all doing one thing in one department. For four people in one department doing all that stuff, my overhead costs would go through the roof.    Dean Soto  18:41   When I see these organizations that have their bookkeeper and then they have their accounts receivable person. They have their accounts payable person. They have their marketer there. They have their advertisers they have all of these specialized people. You guys are retarded. And if you're listening to this right now you're probably thinking I'm the biggest jerk.   Dean Soto  19:06   But honestly, the way that things can be done if you use systems and if you document everything you're doing, you do not have to specialize and have those specialists in your business because they suck up so much resources. So many resources and they kill your overhead. They destroy your overhead.   Dean Soto  19:28   So how is it that Matt from Camrock is able to do with only a few people – two VSAs and only a few people – he's able to do what his other competitors do with hundreds of people. It's because he does not specialize. He doesn't get all these specialized people. He has people he can train with systems. They have processes to do whatever they need to do. But they're generalists and they're able to do so many different things in that business. So it's able to grow exponentially. All that being said, rethink the idea of specializing.   Dean Soto  20:23   If you need copywriting, your first gut instinct should not be "I need to hire a copywriter." If you need marketing, like a social media manager, your first gut instinct should not be "I need to hire a Social Media Manager." Your gut instinct needs to change with the times, which is "How can I build systems and processes – some documentation around the process of social media management?" Get it all documented, have someone do that, and then have someone do that bookkeeping. Have that same person, who does bookkeeping, do the social media management. Have the same person, who's doing social media management, do accounts receivable and collections.   Dean Soto  21:10   How can he make that happen and get out of this realm of specialization?   Dean Soto  21:16   When you do, you'll see that your overhead costs will drop significantly. Significantly. And your revenue will – more than likely – grow exponentially because you have these few people who are able to do everything and giving you the ability to be creative and grow in several different ways as well.    Dean Soto  21:31   All that being said, I have to go pick up my son. His class is done. So, I will catch you in the next Freedom In Five Minutes podcast episode.    Dean Soto  21:56   This is Dean Soto. Freedom In Five Minutes. Go check out FreedomInFiveMinutes.com. There's a masterclass there that talks about everything that I'm talking about here. I also did a four-part video series at ProSulum.com. P-R-O-S-U-L-U-M.com. It goes through in several days. It's really good as well. Go check out either one of those things and you'll see the power of what is able to be accomplished.   Dean Soto  22:23   So excited for you guys to get into more of the generalization. I'm a proud generalist that specializes in generalization. I'll catch you in the next Freedom In Five Minutes episode. This is Dean Soto. FreedomInFiveMinutes.com and I'll catch you in the next Freedom In Five Minutes podcast episode.

In this introductory episode we discuss death threats and the Economy. Are we on the Left or are we on the Right? Why are food stamps being taken away? Stick around until the end of the episode for a special song parody "Where are you Greta Thunberg?" We also discuss climate change, Race, the Po-Po, Donald Trump and ripping on everything in between. Why do I know Nancy Pelosi's name? Why do we know so much about politics without knowing anything at all?

Follow the blinking red dot!  Christine is joined by Shadia Omer (Talk Nerdy with Us! Den of Geek! Shuffle!) to talk about everything that happens when Ethan Hart makes his way to Bluebell! Lemon's losing it, Lavon's got bad timing, Wade's got goals, and George and Zoe must have SOMETHING going on, right? Right? Why else would she call her dad to save his dad's life? Don't forget to join the conversation on Twitter @HartOfDixiePod, on Instagram at longlivethehartpod, or e-mail the show longlivethehartpod@gmail.com! Link to our Hart of Dixie Rammer Jams Season 1 Spotify Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4Xebgdnbwl37yeOK4b1xJH

In this episode, Christina Martini and Jeanette Bronée discuss:  Self-care, self-commitment, self-awareness, self-responsibility, and self-expression.  How we can flex our resilience muscles and prepare ourselves for more challenging times  The journey of self-discovery and self-awareness.  How resilience plays a role in our lives, good and bad, and examples from Jeanette’s own life. Key Takeaways:  There is a resilience that comes from love.  Meditation is a good way to learn to observe our thoughts.  Mindfulness is about being with what’s going on right now, not being with the narrative in our minds.  If we can keep asking ourselves questions, we will continue to grow as individuals. “A lot of times stress doesn’t come from what we have to do, it comes from what we believe we won’t be able to do.” —  Jeanette Bronée About Jeanette Bronée: Jeanette Bronée is a performance strategist, international TEDx and keynote speaker, author and founder of the company Path for Life Inc. Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the “Right Why®” so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about how we can create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional, social and mental wellbeing affect our performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy to help people work better by working healthy. Born in Denmark, she believes that a work-culture of care drives “happy performance” and that investing in people’s health at work, is the most important foundation for sustainable success, both personal and organizational. Connect with Jeanette Bronée: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/pathforlife) Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/pathforlife/) Website: (https://www.jeanettebronee.com/) Blog: (https://pathforlife.com/)   Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/pathforlife/) LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee/) Connect with Christina Martini: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/TinaMartini10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Website: (http://www.paradigmshiftshow.com/) LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinamartini) Email: christinamartini.paradigmshift@gmail.com Show notes by Podcastologist: Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by (https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/) You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.    

In this episode, Christina Martini and Jeanette Bronée discuss:  What resilience means and how it affects our lives.  The relationship between resilience, EQ, and mindfulness.  The different facets of resilience and how they are projected.  Various factors of resilience and how people can develop these traits in themselves.  Key Takeaways:  Mindfulness is one of the most important parts of change.  We need love power – passion and purpose – to keep moving forward in a sustainable way.  Resilience is to keep supporting ourselves all day long so that we keep having energy all day long.  “Don’t ask if I’m going to get through, as how I’m going to get through. If we keep asking how, we’re going to come up with the answers, because that’s how our unconscious mind works.” —  Jeanette Bronée  About Jeanette Bronée: Jeanette Bronée is a performance strategist, international TEDx and keynote speaker, author and founder of the company Path for Life Inc.  Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the “Right Why®” so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about how we can create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional, social and mental wellbeing affect our performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy to help people work better by working healthy. Born in Denmark, she believes that a work-culture of care drives “happy performance” and that investing in people’s health at work, is the most important foundation for sustainable success, both personal and organizational.  Connect with Jeanette Bronée:  Twitter: (https://twitter.com/pathforlife)   Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/pathforlife/)   Website: (https://www.jeanettebronee.com/)   Blog: (https://pathforlife.com/)   Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/pathforlife/)   LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee/)   Connect with Christina Martini:  Twitter: (https://twitter.com/TinaMartini10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor)   Website: (http://www.paradigmshiftshow.com/)   LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinamartini)   Email: christinamartini.paradigmshift@gmail.com  Show notes by Podcastologist: Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie  Audio production by (https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/) You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.    

James: Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Achieve Wealth Podcast, talks to and interviews, a lot of commercial real estate operators and focusing on a lot of our discussion about value-add real estate investing. Today, I have Neal Bower. Neal Bower is from Grow Capitas Commercial Real Estate Investment Company. He negotiates [00:32unintelligible] and acquires commercial real estate properties across the US. He has almost 400 investors right now. A total portfolio size of 1800 units, in which, like around 1400 is multifamily and another 400 student housing. And I would like to welcome, Neal. Hey, Neal, welcome to the show. Neal: Thanks for having me on the show. James. Very excited to be here. James: Good. So, Neil, he has been on a lot of podcasts and you know, a lot of discussion goes around the data collection and experiments that you do in your asset management and in terms of your operation and just finding the right cities, right? [01:14unintelligible] and also operation leasing. So there's a lot of data that's being collected. Right. So we can go to that in a short while. My question to you, Neal, in the first place, why did you start collecting all this data? Neal: Well, I started collecting the data because I screwed up big time. So I started my real estate career in reverse. I mean, most people will start with a single family rental, right? I was a technologist and I got a chance to actually build campuses from scratch. My boss, you know, helped me. He was the CEO of the company, I was the chief operations officer. This was a technology education company and we were growing so much that we decided we were not going to rent offices from somebody, we would build our own campuses. And so that project of building that campus was insanely complicated because, I mean, I hadn't even built a single-family home. Here I am, building a 27,000 square foot campus that's mixed use. It's got classrooms, administrative areas, and restrooms and I had to learn everything from, you know, egress and fire codes. And you know, doors that lock when there's a fire and you know, ceiling heights, air conditioning, cooling, heating, and 500 other things related to that. So it was a trial by fire. I learned very quickly and did that in 2006 and so 2003 then again in 2006 and got very confident about real estate. I think in my mind, I got overconfident and so I went and bought 10 single family homes in California, I timed them correctly due to no credit of my own. It was just, you know, 2008, 2009 and got crazy confidence. I thought I knew it all. I mean that the fact was I knew nothing and I didn't understand that. And so I went to Chicago and bought 10 triplexes and I screwed up really big time. I made massive mistakes. None of those 10 properties really ever made any money and I realized just how little I knew and I start because of that disaster, which basically was a million and a half that got tied up for five years with no returns in the middle of one of the greatest, you know, gain markets of all time, I realized that I needed to learn more. So I started collecting data about why those units never made any money. And what it came down to is that I was spending too much time looking at the rents and looking at the units themselves and not spending enough time looking at the area quality. The quality of the tenant base, the demographics of the area, the income levels, job road levels, the population growth. All of these demographics are mega factors that affect every single thing that we do. And they affect them in a way that's very difficult for us to ascertain. It's almost like you're being carried along on a boat that's going somewhere at 50 miles an hour, but you cannot see outside the boat, right? That is a situation that is the reality of what is happening. And so I started doing a lot of research and data collection. And the more I collected data, the more I realize how powerful it was if I could go beyond data collection to doing data analysis and applying the analysis from one city to another, applying these analyses from one neighborhood to another, from one state to another. And the more I did it, the better I got at it. And so I decided to do more and more and more of it. And that's how my journey started. James: Yeah. I think demographic analysis has been missed by a lot of gurus out there who are teaching real estate investing, especially even on the multifamily side, right? People are just looking at numbers right now and I think commercial real estate consists of two things and what is the user and the space, right? So and we are missing out the demographic side of it, which shows that the demand and I think that's what you're talking about in terms of demographic and also what is the submarket demand, right? What is changing over there? How is the crime rate, who is staying there, what is the renter profile, right? What's the percentage of renters versus owners? It's just not many people know how to analyze that and that's a very important factor. Neal: They don't even look at it. I mean, keep in mind a neighborhood that has 30% homeowners and 70% renters is very different. Both good and bad from one that has 70% homeowners, 30% renters, right? So these things matter so much that if you ignore them, then if you think that you're in control, that is an illusion. That is an absolute illusion because those things are really driving either your profit or your lack thereof. That's really what's driving things, right? And so one example is, I mean, I teach a course, it's called Real Focus. It's about the power of demographics and how to apply them to create profit. And I teach it Live to about 4,000 people a year. And I teach it online, to another 4,000 people so there are about 8,000 people that take that course. And one of the examples that I like to give people is this, one of the most common statements, in fact, it might be the most common statement of all in real estate is that real estate is local, right? So you hear that all the time, real estate is local. Well, actually real estate is not local. James, real estate is hyper-local. So one of the cities that I use in my examples when I'm doing demographics labs for students is I talk about Columbus, Ohio. Columbus is a good city to invest in, right? So doing really well, population growth, job growth, income growth, all kinds of good things are happening there. So in Columbus, there is a small neighborhood that has an average median household income of $183,000 right? That is not an A that is like an A++. So you couldn't really go much higher than that unless you're in the San Francisco Bay area, you couldn't get much higher than 183,000, no. Well, the point is that 500 yards away from this neighborhood is another neighborhood where the median household income is not 183,000 it's not even 18,000, it's 6,000. 500 yards between the richest neighborhood in Columbus, I think it's the second richest actually, and the poorest neighborhood in Columbus, that's how hyperlocal real estate is. And if you don't understand how much that impacts you, obviously in this $6,000 income area, that's a condemned area, no one there pays any rent. Everyone lives there for free in abandoned buildings to this underneath $83,000 area where there's absolutely no cash flow, right? Because the income levels there are very high, there's really nothing available for sale. Everything's taken, everyone there is rich, you know, single family homes that you know, probably are like 1 million bucks. The differences there are staggering. And that 500 yards shows you how much you're missing if you don't understand how demographics drive everything. James: So I mean, I definitely agree with you because I've seen deals in the hottest market in the country and people just talk about the city, right? But they don't talk about the submarket itself or the particular location, right? So how would you go about defining the boundaries of where you want to define the demand for a specific deal? Neal: You know, that's a very interesting question and what you're really talking about is, you know, where does the neighborhood stop? Where does the neighborhood end? So you could say something like half a mile from me is a Whole Foods and next to it is a Starbucks, therefore I'm in the best area. But the reality of the situation is half a mile is also a very long distance. It's a very short distance and it's a very long distance. Remember 183,000 to 6,000, right? That was half a mile. So what really could be the case? Is that right where that Whole Foods is, a hundred yards beyond that, there's a street, maybe it's a railway line, maybe it's a freeway, maybe it's just a regular street and everything beyond that is a different neighborhood, right? Different quality of neighborhood. So you can't really compare this neighborhood to the Whole Foods and Starbucks side. And maybe, just maybe that neighborhood is only half a mile wide and right where your property is, that street actually is another neighborhood, even lower class. So it's very common for people to say half a mile from me is Whole Foods. But actually, they are not in the Whole Foods neighborhood. They're not even in the neighborhood next to Whole Foods, which is lower grade, they're in a third lower neighborhood themselves, like two grades lower now. And that's what everyone has to figure out if you're looking to do syndications or if you're looking to invest in projects. How do you figure these things out there? There are many ways to figure them out, to figure out where neighborhoods start and where neighborhoods end. I use paid tools, so we'll talk about those and I'll also give you some free tools. Neighborhood Scout is the best neighborhood tool I've seen. I've seen many of them, but neighborhoodscout.com allows me to do two things. It allows me to basically plug in an address so it could be a 200 unit property, I plug in the address, I basically take, pull out a report and it shows me the neighborhood and it also shows me the micro-neighborhood. Now there's a difference between those two, right? The neighborhood itself is very powerful because it'll tell, you know, income levels, crime levels, you know, degree-granting levels, is it walkable? It'll tell you an insanely large amount of extremely useful and immediately actionable information. But the micro-neighborhood part is even more powerful. So you'll see a map and on the map, you'll see the neighborhood, right? You can clearly see what roads are part of this neighborhood, where does the neighborhood start, where does it end? Does it go all the way to that Starbucks, does it not go all the way? But then, inside of that map, you'll see a yellow dotted line, which will show you a micro-neighborhood, and the property that you just plugged in, the address is always inside that yellow. And what neighborhood scout is trying to tell you is, okay, the greater neighborhood, maybe it's a mile by a mile, right? That's the typical size for a neighborhood. You know, one mile by one mile is this, and then your property is part of a micro-neighborhood inside of that. And how does it figure that out? What it does is, it looks at your property, let's say it's a single family home and it looks at the home opposite it and says, are these comparable? Okay, yes, they are. Then it goes another block, are these comparable? Yes. Are these comparable? Yes. Are these comparable? No. This is a completely different kind of unit. So it says, okay, those units are really not inside your micro-neighborhood. Something changes there. Something's different. Maybe they're really ghetto or maybe they're really brand new. And so the neighborhood quality changes right at this line. So that dotted yellow line is very important to me because the moment I see that dotted yellow line, I put it on one of my monitors and on the second monitor, I bring up Google and I go switch into street view and I drive around the edges of that yellow dotted line because I'm driving around the outside edges of the neighborhood that I'm investing in. So that gives me a feeling about that neighborhood. And then I'd drive the insights of the neighborhood, it's a micro-neighborhood, so you can on Google, I can basically drive it in about 15-20 minutes. It gives me a really good idea of what's going on in that neighborhood. Obviously, boots on the ground are better, I get that. But at this point, I've just received this property and I want to make a decision on whether I even want to, you know, spend any time on the property and this gives me that information. And Neighborhood Scout is very inexpensive. I think you can even get like Neighborhood Scout for 39 bucks a month and you get 10 reports out of that. So essentially for $4, less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, you're going to learn an astonishing amount about this neighborhood. James: But I mean, end of the day, we want to get rent comps and so let's say the property they're looking at is within that yellow dotted line but there's not a rent comp and now you have to go out of that yellow dotted line, you would you look at your rent comp, how would you compare the rent comp that point of time? Because it's two different demographics. Neal: It definitely is, right? So there's an art and a science to the rent comps. Some of your rent comps will be inside the dotted line so there'll be good and some of them will be outside the dotted line. I think it's still useful because it's telling you where's your micro-neighborhood and where's your neighborhood? But normally you'll find that the vast majority of the time, the comps from the broker are not inside the yellow line and they're not inside the neighborhood. James: They are in one-mile circle radius. Neal: Exactly. And so people are like, well this is only a mile away; are you kidding me? I mean, in San Jose we have areas where the average home value is $1 million and half a mile away, the average home value is $400,000 right? And those are bad areas like really high crime areas. So everything can change in a mile. And I think what this neighborhood scout does is it allows you to basically firstly figure out if you should even be using that rent comp, right? So it might only be three-quarters of a mile away but Neighborhoods Scout shows you that your neighborhood, your property, the one that you're looking at, is actually just at the end of that neighborhood. So that neighborhood is ending right next to your property and then this is three-quarters of a mile away in a completely different sort of neighborhoods so you shouldn't go in that direction looking at rent comps. But another rent comp that the broker provides, it may not be in the neighborhood, but it's on the edge of that neighborhood, it's still only three-quarters of a mile away. But that one makes more sense because your neighborhood ends right next to that comp. So that comp from the broker actually makes more sense. I'm not saying that every comp from a broker is fictional, that's not true. A lot of brokers work hard on the comps. All I'm telling you is that out of five comps that a broker will give you, truly two or three are your neighborhood's comps. And this tool will show you which ones to pick. And then there's going to be a couple that are going to be, geographically speaking, still be in that one-mile radius, but they have nothing to do with your neighborhood and that this tool will allow you to basically ignore them. And then on top of that, obviously there's rent comp tools, there's you know, tools like Rentometer and a number of others. That four a five or 10 you know, dollar report. There's another one, for the moment, you know, also starts with the word rent. There are these tools where you paid $14. I remember paying $14 for this report, rent something and it gives me a report that is specifically about a single family and multifamily rents, right? Nothing to do with anything else, not demographics, simply about rents. And it gives me all kinds of rent criteria, you know, it gives me occupancy levels. Now I'm paying another 14 bucks and I've got rental information for my area, right? It's not giving me comps, it's basically explaining the per square foot rent. It's explaining how many units in my neighborhoods are one bed, two bed, three bed, those sorts of things so that I understand what the unit mix in that area is and if it's a good unit mix. So now I've spent $18 but I've gotten a huge amount of information. And what I find is people are unwilling to spend these $18 right? And syndicators are unwilling to spend these $18 and here's my message to you, right? As a syndicator, you only make money if your clients make money because they usually have a pref, right? So they're going to make money first and then you have to make money. You realize that on a 300 unit property if it does well, you can make $1 million or even 2 million and if it does really, really poorly, you make $0 million so you're paid less than the janitor that cleans that property. And it might be that the only difference and I know this is best case scenario, but it might be that the only difference between that 2 million bucks and not even making the janitor's salary, it might be those $18. Because you forgot that part. You look at everything else in the property and you fell in love with it and it had a beautiful pool and it had a beautiful clubhouse and it had a beautiful this and a beautiful that but you forgot to look at the demographics. Because one of the things I can tell you is some of the worst properties have the best looking clubhouses, right? So don't look at a damn clubhouse because they made it that good looking because they want to sell the fricking property to you and get out. James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean demographic analysis and in some markets like what we're discussing right now, it's very, very micro. And how do you really decide the deal has an upside in terms of rent, that's why we look for in a value-add deal. Unless you're not buying value-add deal, you just want cash flow. Neal: Well, I think more and more of those deals, I mean more and more of the value adds are becoming cashflow. I mean, let's be honest here, James, nobody that I know of, no syndicator that I know of is able to drive up rents as much today as they were two years ago and certainly not as much as they were four years ago. So I think that true value add is becoming less and less available. Even the deals that are a full value add where we say, okay, we're upgrading 80% of the units, I get that, that technically speaking, if you're upgrading 80% of the units, that's a full value add. But I would challenge whether 80% of those units would receive $150-200 rent bumps. Some will, some won't. I mean the market is changing, the environment is changing. There's only a certain number of people in that neighborhood that can afford to pay that higher rent. And as you rehab more and more and more of the properties in that neighborhood, it becomes more and more and more difficult to achieve those rent bumps. So I think more and more people are doing light value add. At least that's where I'm seeing the industry moving to. James: Oh No. Even myself, I moved from deep value add two years ago to lighter. I mean, I still do value add, but it's no more the deep value add I used to do and just because I'm doing more agency loan nowadays, no more bridge loans19:47inaudible] Neal: I think that's really wise because we have to be cognizant of where we are in the cycle. And so I think you're doing the right approach because a lot of these deeper value add projects, there's another name for them and that is they're higher risk. James: And you also pay a premium for it, right? Neal: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. James: Nowadays, the sellers and brokers, you know, you're basically overbidding the price up and you're basically taking the value away by paying more. Neal: Unfortunately that's the case. I mean, our company right now has three rules. Number one, everyone is overpaying. Number two, everything we buy, we've overpaid. And number three, if you don't find new ways of adding value to the property after we buy it, we weren't at our performance. These are our three fundamental rules today in everything that we do. And none of these rules existed two years ago. James: Got it. So coming back to the submarket analysis because I think you have talked about a lot of CT level analysis in lots of other podcasts so I don't want to repeat that again here. Coming to sub-market analysis, so let's say you're trying to prospect a market, right? So let's say I know you like Boise, Idaho, right? That's the top market that is. So let's say now you have Boise, Idaho, how do you go about prospecting within this city, right? How do you look at whether the deal, because the cap rate in the southern part of the city may be different in a certain part of the city, right? So how do you go about prospecting or do you just get the deal and start going? Neal: The true answer is that you know, several years ago I didn't have the kind of broker and partner operator relationships that I have today. My initial approach was to use a tool like city-data. I use a number of different tools, but neighborhood scout is my favorite, neighborhood level tool, city data, plus local market monitor, plus housing alerts, these three are my favorite city level tools. And then, of course, there's Costar. Costar is not just a demographics tool, obviously. Costar has a huge number of other benefits. The biggest benefit of Costar is supply. It understands incoming supply in the market, which as far as I know, no other demographic tools understand. Simply because Costar has these 50 Prius cars that drive around 50 US Metros on a daily basis trying to figure out all new construction that's going on and totaling it up and trying to figure out if demand is in excess of supply. And in many great neighborhoods, really good neighborhoods, demand is often not in excess of supply.That's because the neighborhood is so great that people are building 3000 units in a two-mile radius of you, which means that everything might be hunky dory now, but two years from now you'll be in trouble. So I don't have a cheap answer to give you when it comes to neighborhoods supply levels, really, Costar is the best option to look at supply and make sure that you don't end up in a market where you'll have 3000 brand new units, you know, delivering and they'll have, you know, two months off as concessions and basically tank your rents for a year. So that's my feedback on supply. Now away from supply, looking at demographic trends, you can do that analysis on a tool called city-data.com. So when I look at city-data, there's a map on city-data so you plug in the city. So it could be Houston, could be Columbus, could be whatever city you're in; it works better on midsize and large-sized cities. Doesn't work well on like a really teeny tiny city like Saint George. You're not going to get as much value out of that too. So let's say you're in Houston, right? So go look at, you know, scroll down, you'll see this very nice blue colored map of Houston and you notice something very unique. This is something I haven't seen in any free tools. That map of Houston is already broken up into bits. And you'll notice that some of the bits are really tiny, like half a mile by half a mile and some of the bits are big, two miles by two miles, three miles by three miles. And what city data is telling you is that that tiny little bit, everything inside that resembled everything else inside there, but that big one that's next to it, the two mile by two mile, once again, the same principle applied, everything inside of that two mile radius resembled everything else. That's why some of these neighborhoods are tiny, some are mid-size, some are large size. So what you're really looking at in that map are the neighborhoods in that particular city. Right? And if you click on any one of those little tiles, a box will pop up and that box will give you information specifically about that neighborhood. And there are five metrics in that box that I like to use. Now keep in mind if you pay for neighborhood scout for that particular address, you'll see more information than this, but obviously you're paying for that. If you want something for free here it is. That box, the first thing we want to see in that box is the income level in that micro-neighborhood, remember it might be like 400 yards by 400 yards. You want the income level, the median household income level in that neighborhood, you want it to be above $40,000, 38 is still okay in some of the Midwest states, but what I find is when you're down to 35 it doesn't matter where in the US you are, you're going to have delinquency trouble. So the median household income of 38,000 is the minimum acceptable level for multifamily projects. Obviously, this number has to be higher if you happen to be in San Francisco, it has to be higher if you're in New York. So I'm going to basically say the rule doesn't, that 38K number is really for markets that cashflow, right? So Texas markets, Florida markets, you know, maybe not Miami, but the rest of the Florida markets, that cashflow, maybe not central Austin. So understand what I mean by cashflowing markets. Here's what you'll see at 38K; when that number, the median household income in that box, when it starts going below 38 K, your delinquency levels start rising. And the true killer of profit is not occupancy. The true killer of profit is churn. And churn is tied to delinquency. Delinquent tenants, some of them do care about their credit, and so they just simply move out. They just leave a key and move out and they basically say, yep, you know, I'm going to skip and let's see if this guy's going to chase me. Because they know 90% of the time, it's not worth your while to chase them and try and get that money. You just move on. You rent out your unit, you move on with your life. And these skips and the delinquency connected with them, the repainting, the time that it takes, the marketing costs, the effort, the people time, kills your profit. And what I found is by the time you dropped from $38,000 in median household income to 30, the property and the project, for the most part, has become viable. I do not know of any syndicators that can make a profit in a neighborhood that is under $30,000. I've made that mistake myself. I haven't been able to make money. So to me, that first number that is an absolute is, go into a neighborhood that has the income to support what you are trying to do. Keep in mind, you're trying to raise rents, right? So even 38 is kind of borderline, right? I tend to basically use 40,000 as my minimum number. I have properties that are at 42 44 46; if you're in the fifties you're doing really well. If you're in the 60s then your property is getting closer to a 'B' and by the time it hits $70,000, you are in a 'B' area. So a 'C' area, one of the definitions, my favorite definition of 'C' area is 40 to 70,000 income, right? And a 'D' area is $30,000 and below. So 'C' minus is 40 to 30. And obviously, these are metrics I made up myself. You could successfully come to me and argue, no. In my area a C minus is not 40 to 30, it's 35 to 25 I'll just say, okay, that's fine. These are rules of thumbs that appear to work in the vast majority of the United States that people are investing. It may not work in your area, no argument, but I think that within the bounds of them being rules of thumbs, they do work really well because they allow me to understand the quality of an area. James: Got it. Neal: There are states that have lower delinquency. Utah for example, for cultural reasons, you can go a little bit lower than that simply because 10% of their income is going to the church, right? Everybody in Utah, very religious people, they contribute 10% of the church, which means that when they do get in trouble the church helps them out, right? So many times in Utah you can have lower delinquency even in markets that are under 35K. So that's a cultural issue, a cultural benefit that they have, but it doesn't necessarily apply to most parts of the US. So that's the first thing that comes up in that box. Remember, we're in city-data, we're looking at the blue map. We're looking at the tiles and we're clicking on them in a black box comes up. Well, the first thing there was income. The second thing that comes up on that box is the poverty level, right? It's very much tied back to the income. And poverty level, you want to be below 15% as much as possible. If you can be below 10%, you're going to do really well, but 15% I think is acceptable. And if you don't mind taking more risk, if you're in a noose indicator and you really need to get going, then maybe 20, but I can tell you if that number is 30, you can't make money. It doesn't matter how high the rents are. It doesn't matter how many units have been bumped up by the previous guy and they have $200 in rent bumps and 300 and all that wonderful stuff, it doesn't matter. At 30% poverty levels, you cannot get 12 consecutive months of rent from your tenants. James: So do recommend, I mean, I know that's the job of the active sponsor when they find deals, right? So even the passive investors should go and look at deals... Neal: Why not? Everything I told you, if you, you know, take this podcast and it's going to be on James' website, you can go to Florida or whenever the heck you feel like. Right? So it shouldn't take you as a passive investor more than 10 minutes, the rule still applies. And keep in mind that a lot of class 'C's are going to be borderline on this so don't expect that good syndicators are really buying properties at 5% poverty levels. 5% is not a good deal; at 5%, that's a class A area. And your syndicators not going to make you any money, so there's no problem with it being borderline. You just don't want it to be too far from these numbers that I'm giving. James: Correct. Correct. So let's say you get a deal today on the neighborhood that meets all your criteria, right? Poverty level, household income and all that, so how would you go about underwriting that deal? What's the first thing that you will look at? Neal: Well, I look at the numbers, the same demographics numbers to determine what my delinquency numbers are going to be. Because I find that I can raise a property's occupancy so there are certain levers that I have that are typical syndicator doesn't have. Syndicators don't have marketing teams, right? Syndicators basically have a property manager. That property manager might be good at marketing or bad at marketing. They're typically bad but they're never excellent, right? So we basically decided early on that that extra value add that we have to add in that no one else is adding in, is marketing. And by marketing, I don't mean investor marketing, I mean tenant marketing. So for every property that we have, we're actually adding more leads on top of what the property manager is generating. For some properties, it's 30% more than they're generating; in other properties, it's three times more than they're generating. So they're generating a thousand leads a year, we're generating 3000 leads a year and giving those leads to them. So I can basically move occupancy numbers up, you know, and I'm very confident about those. So I go back to delinquency. So I look at the delinquency of that particular area. Obviously, Costar gives you delinquency numbers, so that's very good, useful information to have for that particular neighborhood. The other thing that I like to do is, and this is not always available, is you can get bank statements from friendly sellers. Not every seller gives it to you, but some do. And one of the nice things about the bank statements is that some property managers, previous property managers have basically put all the money in like in one check. But most of them actually put the money in like every few days. So they collect the checks and then they go to the bank every day or every other day and they put the checks in. So to understand what the quality of the tenant basis and what they're capable of absorbing in terms of rent hikes, simply look at the checks to see how much of the money is coming in in the first five days, how much of it is coming in the next five days, how much of it is coming in the five days after that? Then the five days after that, then the five days after that. They might be saying that my delinquency rate is 2% but what if their delinquency rate was 25% on the 15th of the month? Well, that area, that kind of area where you still have 25 30% of the rent hasn't come in on the 15th, you have to be careful about not being over bullish on how much you can really raise the rents. There's a limit in that market, right? It may not be $200, it might be $120 that you can raise. And accordingly, you want to also cut down on your rehab budget. Because your rehab budget can be 6,000, it can be 8,000 give me 12,000 but in an area where you know, overall income levels are low, let's say 38,000, and you can see that 20 30% of their tenants don't even pay until the 15th, I'm not sure there's any benefit to doing a $12,000 per unit rehab. I'm not even sure you want to do an $8,000 per unit rehab. I think six or four might be better. Rehabbing does have benefits. The velocity at which your lease increases tenants, like the newer units, but beyond a certain level, it's not that they don't like the units, of course, they love it, they're just not able to pay for it. And when you don't want to end up in a situation where the tenants, all of your new tenants that have come in, those are the guys that are becoming delinquent because really their capability was to get $850 a month units, but they're all in the thousand dollar upgraded units. And so now, all of your upgraded units are the ones that have very high delinquency so when I'm underwriting, those are the sort of things I'm looking at. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's very interesting to see delinquency and you say Costar has the delinquency data? Neal: Costar has neighborhood level delinquency data. Yeah, some market levels. So you can basically go in. That very long report, that's like 86 pages, it has averaged delinquency for a particular market. I'm not sure how they get it. No, I have no idea. But what's nice is they also have expense data, right? So they have expense data. Obviously, you talk to property managers about expense data as well but Costar gives you, you know, kind of the average expense for the submarket, the average payroll for that particular submarket. I find that people trying to beat the average payroll by 20%, it's wishful thinking. James: Yeah. How do you differentiate delinquency between the property management's skill versus real delinquency for the area? Because it could be just the property managers are not doing a good job, right? Neal: I think so. So one of the services that we provide on in properties that have higher delinquency, sometimes we have operating partners that don't want to do it but most of the time we do it is we make my staff, our staff, not the property management staff, will make delinquency calls on the sixth or seven. So we don't do it all the time, we don't want to do it. But let's say the property has consistent delinquency problems, consistent; one of the ways to figure out the answer to your question is, is this a tenant problem? Is this a PM problem? Hire somebody, give them a script, have them call every tenant that is not showing as having paid by the sixth of the month, make three phone calls, actually make two phone calls and two text messages on the sixth and the seventh. Repeat the process on the 10th and the 11th. If you do that for three straight months and your delinquency is still high, it's not a property manager problem. James: Well, you find that out after the fact, after you bought the property. Is there any way to find before you buy? Neal: Well, other than the demographics information I gave you? No, not really because the truth is that it could still be a tenant-based problem. But it could be that the previous owner was self-managing the property and let a bunch of deadbeats that should not have been in there. That in my mind is a management issue but not a property manager issue and that's also an opportunity. You bought this property because you think rents can be at 1100 with low delinquency. Right now, they're at 900 with high delinquency. Maybe the guy just let in a bunch of deadbeats so you can ask for credit reports of the last 25 people that have been put in, what was the actual credit report? Some owners will give it to you, some won't. If they're not giving it to you, you have to question yourself why that is the case? Was he just basically trying to just fill up the property? And, in that case, it's not such a bad thing. You just have to know that when you go in, you're going to have a lot of evictions to deal with. But in that case, it's not a tenant base problem. It's not a property management problem. It's a previous owner problem and you are going to benefit once you churn through all those bad tenants, you're going to have four years of good tenants in your property so you can still hit your performer. You just need more maintenance budget, you need more operating budget and you need your investors to be a little bit more patients because your first 12 months are going to be very rocky. James: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure you've seen a lot of financials when you're underwriting a deal, right? So is there any dirty secrets by sellers that you have found from the financials or when you walk the unit and see, aah, they are tweaking these numbers here to make the property more appealing to the buyer? Neal: I mean, everybody has their own stories about these financials, right? So the one that I find that is fairly common is that you're going into a property, you want to be able to tell during your due diligence, don't do this during their contract negotiation. But during your due diligence, you basically call them and say, hey, we'd like to talk to a bunch of your tenants. And you randomly, always pick a bunch of tenants to talk with and make sure that there's nothing shady about their rent. So you have a tenant that's at $900 and everybody else is at 800, let's pick that tenant and let's talk with him. Let's make sure that there isn't some side deal where that tenant actually is paying 900 bucks and is being reimbursed $200 in cash. James: Has that happened? Neal: that has happened; not in a 250 unit type property, but in a 70/80 unit property. Basically, what had happened was all the new tenants that had started in the last four months, were all receiving cash back, right? I think there were 12 tenants and between them, $2,400 a month of artificial rents were created, which is $2,400 a month is $30,000 a year, $30,000 a year at six cap is basically $480,000. So that $480,000 for the seller was created by him negotiating direct deals with those 10 people and giving them $200 kickbacks. So his cost was 2,400 a month for three months and his profit was 500. James: Wow. I never heard that. That's really sneaky. Neal: Very sneaky. But you think about how much of an incentive that guy has to do it, right? Technically it's not illegal, by the way. James: It's not illegal? Neal: It's not illegal. He has to disclose it to you that there's a side arrangement, but you can't actually send somebody to jail for this. I mean, you can't sue them and win, in my opinion. James: You can't say it's a fraud? Neal: I think you can. I think that that's going to be fought over in court. In my mind, it's something that you should basically, in due diligence, if you look at higher numbers, make sure you talk with those tenants. It doesn't take that much time; during due diligence, you're at the property for multiple days. Right? Why not have conversations with four or five people and make sure everything's above board. Say, hey, we were looking to buy this property and just checking your rental contract and it shows $900 a month, is that correct? And if there's anything shady, that guy is not going to fall on his sword for the previous seller. James: Yeah. I mean, I've done all the due diligence for my properties. I never talked to the tenants. Do they allow to talk to the tenants when you are doing? Neal: Usually they do. I mean, obviously, they won't allow you to talk to a hundred tenants, but if you randomly pick three or four, they do. It's just not something that people ask for commonly, but there's no reason for them to have an objection. So that's one that I've seen commonly. The other one that I've seen commonly is that everything that you're looking at is actually coming out of the property management software, not from the bank statements. So you look at the property management software and it says $111,000 in monthly rents. But when you look in the bank, it's just 88. So what they're doing is basically they're not allocating for bad debt properly. And they're saying, oh, I'm sorry, this the way that our property management, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah software works. What they're trying to basically say is, Oh, I'm sorry you caught us, but we're going to try and explain it away as some idiosyncrasy of the way our property management software works. But you know, yeah, we didn't actually make 111 that month, we only made 88,000. So I think reconciling bank statements to what the property management software says, is very useful. They may not be trying to screw you over or anything so the difference may not be 88 to 111; it might be 88 to 91 but it still shows delinquency in that property. James: So have you had any of these cases and you backed out of the contract? Neal: Yeah, I have. James: Okay. It's also tricky nowadays, in the hot market nowadays because people are paying day 1, hot money. Neal: It's very difficult. That's what scares me a lot. I mean, you pay hard money and then you find something where they've tricked you. The only way to get that money back is to sue them. James: Correct. Because people are paying like in a hot market... Neal: Even $200,000. I mean, it's ridiculous. I mean, that tells me that something is wrong. In my mind, there is no conceivable reason why anyone should pay $200,000 hard on day one. This is all frenzy that has been created by brokers and it's a sign of an unbalanced market. There is no reason why that should ever happen. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean they do have something called early access agreement where you can go and see the rent roll and all that, but you can do a thorough due diligence. Some sellers allow it, but nowadays, even that nowadays they don't allow. Neal: Well, in my mind, James, I mean, if that is their intent, why don't they just say, okay, well we'll go hard on day five. When people want you to go hard on day one, there's no way to tell if they are doing it because they are unethical or simply because they weren't, you know, somebody who has enough skin in the game and enough confidence in his ability to close. The majority of the time, the reason is perfectly legitimate that they want you to close and so they want you to go hard on day one but I don't think that that's the reason 100% of the time or anywhere close to 100% of the time. James: Awesome. Yeah. It's a bit scary when you do day one hot money. So coming back to value-add, I presume all the deals that you're doing is value-add deals, is that right? Not a deep value-add or not completely. Neal: I have some deep value-adds but a lot of them are, you know, standard $6,500 type value-adds. James: So what is the most valuable value-adds that you see? Neal: Oh, it's easy. The single most valuable value-add are USB ports. One in the kitchen and one in the bedroom. So of all value adds, nothing comes close to that. James: Really, especially just because everybody needs a USB. Neal: Because everybody that comes in comments on it, right? So everybody that comes in comments on it and this is one of those universal things where men and women comment on it equally. And the better value add is, you know, these days, the wall plates, right? You get the wall plates with a two USB ports, correct? So if you wanted to really wow people, the new USB Dash C standard, pay $4 extra for one that has two standard USB ports, but the one in the middle is that new USB Dash C. So I think those are incredible, incredible value adds; they give you a hundred X return. James: Awesome. Awesome answer. That's absolutely helpful. So now let's go to a bit more personal side of questions, right? So why do you do what you do? Neal: The truth is I fell into it, right? So this hasn't been a conscious thing. I did technology. I started doing real estate because I was paying 50% in tax. So basically tax avoidance was the primary reason why I fell into real estate. But I think the bigger thing was that on the technology side, when I had W2 income, you know, many years I made more money than I made in real estate but I always felt nervous. It's like when you have $150,000 salary, you're always nervous about your position. Like, I always have to perform, I can never have a bad year, right? Because they might start thinking, well, we could hire two guys for 175 k each and get rid of this guy, Neil. So there was always that nervousness about not being in control of my destiny. And I don't feel that now. It doesn't matter if I have a bad year and I only make a hundred grand, but I still have control of my destiny and always make it up next year. So to me, I think it was less about ownership and more of our control over my destiny. James: Okay. But you will keep on buying deals? I mean, is that what your plan is? I mean, where do you want to stop? So what drives you to bite the next deal Neal: In my mind, what drives me is that I still feel like I'm creating value in each additional project. I'm finding some way to make those projects work. I'm contributing and I'm making investors happy and also, you know, increasing my own net worth. Will I keep doing it? No. I think that truth be told, I mean, I admire people like JC Castille who just love it so much. He says, Neil, I'm going to be doing this for 30 years. And I said, if I know one thing for sure, I mean you're very sure about what you just said JC, I met him recently. I know for sure I won't be doing this in 30 years and I know for sure I may not even be doing it in 10 years. I mean, to me, I think that life is an evolution and I don't mind telling my investors, look, I'm going to do this for five to 10 years and then I'd like to do something else because my career is very diverse. I've done solar education. I've done basically businesses around nursing. I've done high technology; like three different kinds of high technology, staffing, consulting, education services. I've even been a primary investor in a gas station. I'm an entrepreneur and what that means is at some point, I want to create the systems and processes so other people who are smarter than me can continue running the business forward. And so my most coveted title is not founder and it's not CEO, it is chairman. And so the longterm goal is that at some point, I want to switch to doing that. But I would not hesitate to shut down the business if I didn't feel I was adding value. This business only survives when it adds value if it doesn't add value, making it or forcing it to survive makes it a parasite. James: So when you say add value means, add value to your personal life? Neal: Add value to my investors. So by default, I don't say add value to my personal life because if I add value to my investors, the adding value to my personal is automatic. It happens by default, right? So to me, the only kind of add value that we should be looking at is adding value to our investors. And if it doesn't add value, we'll do something else. It doesn't mean I'll go out of real estate. You know, one of the things is I'm a very unusual syndicator in that half of my projects are new construction. And the project that I'm coming out with this week is called The Grid. It's a $30 million student housing project, new construction. And so why? Because as the market shifts and Class C properties become so expensive that everyone's buying six cap on actual or five and a half cap on actual, then in the back of my mind, I'm going, well, you know, I can make a brand new class A for seven cap. I know it's risky during construction, but let's say I get through the construction phase, isn't it less risky? Because at this point, you know, maybe it's not seven cap, maybe six and a half cap, but don't I have a six and a half cap, Class A building? What's the worst that could happen? Do we have a recession after dropped rents? So what? It's still a seven cap building and it's a brand new. That part of it is not going to change if I can't raise my rents. So I look at that and I go, you know, there's this whole business of buying Class C's at five and a half cap is scaring me. James: Yeah. I was talking to a broker the other day. He was trying to get me to buy a 1960s product at six cap. He says Austin is good now. Then I say what about the B class 1980s? Oh, it's like five and a half cap rate here. I'd rather buy the five and a half cap than buy the six cap; doesn't make sense, right? Neal: I agree with you. And honestly, you should not be, you know, between a B and a C, if there's a half gap difference always, by the B. James: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So is there anything that you do in your daily life that you think has contributed to your effectiveness in becoming very successful? Neal: I think structure. I'm a robot that has some human, characteristics and I like being a robot. I am extremely structured, absolutely structured, all the time and I feel that it's difficult for people to tie themselves to structure. That's a very hard thing to do because we feel like we are losing something about ourselves. We feel like we're losing a part of our humanity. What I have found is that it's actually the reverse. I'm very structured. I start my work, I work with an extremely high intensity and then I stop and when I stop, I completely stop. I have nothing to do with work because I make sure that every second of those 11 hours or 10 hours that I work really count. And to me, I think that that makes me have a significantly greater output than some other folks. James: Got It. Got It. Any advice for newbies who wants to start at multifamily? Neal: Yes. Right now be careful. Please understand that while there is no crash on the cards, I don't believe in all this nonsense about, you know, prices going down 20%. People say that they clearly don't understand macroeconomics, but you are buying at the peak. This may be a peak that is sustained for a significant amount of time, due to the fact that basically, it's very difficult for prices to come down because of macro reasons, but you certainly not going to see the kind of all ships rising effect that we have seen in the last five years. You're starting now, please do not apply the past to your present. This is a tough time. It's going to be very hard. If I was starting today in 2019, the 2013 version of me would advise the 2019 version, not to start. That's how frank I have to be. If you're starting that's fine, but I think you should be cautious and be aware of what kind of environment you're in. James: Got it. Got it. Well, Neil, thanks for coming to the show. Can you let the audience and listeners know how do get hold of you and how to find you? Neal: Sure. I think the best way is through education. I'm an educator, I connect with people through education. I have a portal called multifamilyyou.com. We have about 50 webinars that we do every year on multifamilyyou.com. We archive all of them. They're deep dive webinars. They're very different from podcasts because there's a lot of displayed content and tens of thousands of people attend those webinars each year. So that's probably the best way to connect with me. I don't mind people having my direct email address. My email is Neal, that's the Irish spelling, n e a l neal@multifamilyyou.com. So you connect with me. I also connect with people on Facebook. I think about 10,000 people connected with me on Facebook. And then multifamilyyou.com. If you want to learn more about demographics, I have a free course. It's at udemy.com/RealFocus. That course, I think right now has about a thousand people enrolled. So it usually has 1,000-1200 people enrolled at any given point in time. So that's also a completely free course. We don't believe in pitchers, if you're a presenter and would like to present our platform, approach us, but it has to be pitched free. James: Awesome, Neal. Thanks for coming and adding huge value to our audience and listeners, I'm sure everybody would have learned a ton of things today. Thank you. Neal: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me on the show. Bye, James.

Zach sits down with award-winning author and race and gender empowerment expert Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever to talk about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Dr. Avis also shares some advice for black and brown women who are still struggling to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work.Connect with Avis on her website and through social media! Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInCheck out her book, How Exceptional Black Women Lead, on Amazon!Read her piece on NBC BLK! Black Women, Work and the Normalcy of DisrespectTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every episode we try to bring y'all something special, right? We either have an influencer, an educator, a speaker, an author, you know, a mover, a shaker, you know? And today we're actually blessed to have all of those things and more with our guest, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever. Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever is an Award-Winning Author, International Speaker, Political Commentator, and Race & Gender Empowerment Expert. As a serial entrepreneur, Dr. Avis is the founder of the Washington DC Boutique Consulting Firm, Incite Unlimited, along with The Exceptional Leadership Institute and World Changers Media, LLC. Dr. Avis’ organizations offer leadership, diversity & inclusion, entrepreneurship and media training along with communications strategy development and the implementation of impactful research. Her clients include major corporations, non-profit organizations and governmental entities based both domestically and abroad. So that's everywhere, okay? Now, look, some of y'all probably have already seen Dr. DeWeever 'cause she's had--she's been seen on a variety of platforms, including CNN, Fox News, PBS, C-SPAN, TV One, BET, BBC, NPR, Sirius XM Radio--come on, now--the Washington Post, the Atlantic, Essence, Ebony, and many, many more. She currently serves as a Contributor to The Huffington Post, Black Enterprise and NBC BLK. Now, look here. I gotta get something for that. [Cardi B "ow" sfx]. Okay, now look, Dr. Avis also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the Voter Participation Center, Women’s Voices. Women’s Vote, and the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation. In addition, she’s the Sr. Public Policy Advisor to the Black Women’s Roundtable, an Affiliated Scholar to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and a member of the Closing the Racial Wealth Gap Initiative. But in her most important role, she serves as a mother to two magnificent young men who will one day, undoubtedly, change the world. Dr. DeWeever, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Avis: I am doing [laughs]--I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.Zach: Oh, no, thank you for being here. Now look, I've got all these questions for you, but the first question, which I recognize has to be the question on top of everybody's mind... which one of these sandwiches is better? Is it the Chick-fil-A sandwich or is it the Popeyes sandwich?Avis: [laughs] Okay. Well, you know, everybody was talking about the whole Popeyes thing, so I just had to try it 'cause, you know, I'm just like, "What is all the commotion about?" Zach: Of course, of course.Avis: And I'm not a big Chick-fil-A person either, so--I have to be honest, I've never even tasted Chick-fil-A’s sandwich 'cause I'm not really that much into chicken sandwiches. I don't really get the purpose of putting the chicken in-between two pieces of bread.Zach: [horrified] Oh, no...Avis: I don't know. To me, the Popeyes chicken--okay, unpopular opinion, it was so darn crunchy I didn't really hardly get a taste. All I tasted was the outside.Zach: Oh, the skin.Avis: I try to stay away from fried stuff anyway, so.Zach: Well, good for you for taking care of yourself. You've got to manage your temple. Avis: Exactly.Zach: You know, it's a long-term investment.Avis: You ain't lying there. [both laugh] Hey, listen. If I would've had--if I had the metabolism I had 20 years ago, I'd be all the way in on a chicken sandwich. Since I don't, I'm leaving it alone, right?Zach: [laughs] Hey, I definitely understand. Now, I have yet to try it--well, let me take it a step back. I've yet to try the Popeyes sandwich, but I just--I don't know, man. It's hard. And this is not an ad, you know, and of course Chick-fil-A has their own problematic points of view as well, but I don't know. I just don't know, Doc. I don't know if I can get with that Popeyes. I don't know, but, you know, it's the total experience. Anyway, look, let's--all jokes aside, [both laugh] today we're talking about--we're talking about a few things, 'cause you have so much to offer, right? So we're gonna talk about a few things. We're talking about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Now, you've written a number of works that encapsulate perspectives and frustrations of black folks, specifically black women. Can you speak a bit about some of the works that you've written and how those challenges don't stop when you get to work?Avis: Absolutely. So I think probably my most significant work in this area is my book, "How Exceptional Black Women Lead," and with that I interviewed over 70 black women across the nation who--and some internationally--who are absolutely extraordinary in what they do, have ascended to amazing levels in terms of leadership success across a variety of different career platforms--or areas I guess is a better way of saying it--and I have to say, still all of them faced the double whammy, the double barrier, of being black and being a woman and having to sort of navigate the intersections of that all along the way to get to where they were, and I think the bottom line is that we all face, no matter where we are, no matter what industry we're in, whether we're corporate, whether we're non-profit, you know, whether we're entrepreneurs, those same--there are different rules that seem to be in play when it comes to us as compared to the other guys, and the bottom line is that we just--we recognize that as the reality, but we cannot let those bumps in the road become road blocks. We have to figure out how to navigate around them, and so what I've found inspiring by speaking with these amazing women is that they found a way to break through those road blocks, to get over those humps and bumps, and still make a way to the top. And if they can do it, other people can do it too.Zach: No, 100%, and it's so interesting too. I think that, you know, it's so easy--well, on my side, 'cause I'm a man, so I participate in patriarchy and male privilege, and I think about the more and more that I talk to--of course my mother as I've just gotten older and just, like, kind of think back about times when I was a child and some of the things she experienced at work, as well as just my black female colleagues. When I talk to them, just the amount of trauma and abuse and disrespect that, like, y'all endure and just casually put up with, right?Avis: Yeah. Oh, God.Zach: Right? And it's--like, every time I meet a black woman at work, she always has at least one extra degree more than I do, right? You know, you and I were having this conversation on Black Women's Equal Pay Day, and it just--there's a pattern here of black women being underpaid and overeducated, overqualified for the roles, and underpromoted, right? Undersponsored. You know, just to the point you're looking at 'em like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know? Just, like, "What's going on?" [both laugh]Avis: Oh, my god. That was perfect. [both laugh] Oh, it's so true. And in fact, you know, actually I wrote a piece for NBC BLK called Black Women and the Normalcy of Disrespect, and it talks exactly about this issue. Everything that you mentioned, plus on top of that the issue of often times having your brilliance basically gentrified by other people in the workplace, right? So doing the hard work, not getting the credit, seeing other people that you basically trained leapfrog over you, it has in many ways become normal, and I think--and that also is related to another fact, that black women are the leading demographic in the nation just to say "Bump this," and start their own businesses, right? Because I think many of us come to the realization that "If my brilliance is not gonna be respected here, why am I giving away my pearls for this? To this?" Right? "Why not cast my pearls in my own favor?" And so a lot of us are making that transition to entrepreneurship because we understand that the work that we do in the workplace often times is disrespected, is not--does not really lead to the same sort of outcomes that other people face, and so because of that we think about, well, we don't want to spend our lives in that situation. Why not see what we can do in terms of turning our intellectual capital into a good--not just for somebody else, but for ourselves.Zach: Amen, Dr. Avis. And look, those little Biblical references, you're not sleeping on me. I heard you. I got one for you too - 'cause sometimes you gotta just, you know, shake the dust from your feet, you know what I mean?Avis: Exactly. [laughs]Zach: So you just gotta make it happen, you know? But no, you're absolutely right, and I think there's also--so I'd love for you and I to talk about this in a separate conversation, but, you know, Living Corporate, what we're really trying to do right now is do some research to talk about and connect the reality of work trauma, work-related trauma, with--like, the mental health impacts of work-related trauma to black and brown folks at work, because there's something that I believe--and again, I don't have a Ph.D, okay? I'm not out here hanging out with Roland Martin like you, Dr. DeWeever, but I do believe--[both laugh]--I do believe that there's some mental--I do believe it impacts your mental health to be the person who's putting all the thought leadership in, but then someone comes in, quote unquote cleans it up, and then they get all of the credit for it, right? I think that that's--that does something to you over time.Avis: It can be traumatic, and dealing with a daily sort of barrage of microaggressions and macroaggressions and not seeing other people sort of stand up and acknowledge what it is and call a thing a thing is also traumatic. I just had a conversation with a client last night who is a tenured professor at a university, went to an event at her university where there was a guest speaker, and apparently the guest speaker--white--used the N-word, and--[record scratch sfx] And she was shocked. She was insulted. And just as much as she was shocked and insulted, she was also hurt that none of her white colleagues said anything. Zach: No, that's terrible. That's terrible.Avis: So in essence she felt betrayed, right? So, you know, it is traumatic. It can be traumatic to continue to suffer those indignities every day, which is basically a coded behavior in our society that says that--that tries to tell us the lie, basically, that we don't belong, that we are not important, that we're not valued, and I think a lot of the work that I do, whether it be through my writing, whether it be through my sort of coaching with women around these issues, is really about saving our souls from that daily assault that we face in the workplace and figuring out strategies to navigate it in a way that maintains our self-dignity and allows us to put ourselves in situations where we do garner respect, whether or not that means navigating those spaces within that environment in a way that changes that dynamic so that you are treated with the respect that you deserve, or in some situations it may mean finding a better environment that is healthier for you, because it does not do you any good to stay in a workplace that is constantly assaulting your dignity. It will impact your health. It will impact your peace of mind. And let me tell you, no check is worth that.Zach: Oh--listen, hold on. Hold on. [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Listen, 'cause--and this is the thing. I think we're in a really interesting intersection of increased awareness--if I'm gonna go by social media, and if I look at, like, the wellness trends today, especially within, like, the black and brown community, we're in an interesting intersection of millennials being more and more prominent in the workplace and mental health being, like, more and more openly discussed, and I think that, you know, we've seen trends now that people--like, my generation will leave. You know, they're talking about "This ain't working?" You know what I'm saying? They'll say, "Well, you know, if you're not gonna be able to work these crazy hours and be treated like this, you're gonna have to find a new job." We'll be like [Shannon Sharpe "that ain't no problem" sfx]--it's not a problem. Like, we will transition, you know? [both laugh]Avis: I would be like, "Deuces!"Zach: Deuces. Like, goodbye.Avis: But you know what? That in and of it self is a good strategy. You know, I think we need to acknowledge the wisdom of that in a couple of different ways. I mean, not only are you saving your soul from those stressors that, as I mentioned, impact your physical health and your mental health, quite frankly your strongest point of negotiation when it comes to salary is when you have a new job opportunity. So moving to that next opportunity and that next opportunity and that next opportunity in a relatively short period of time helps you to be able to exponentially grow your earning power a lot more than individuals often times who choose to spend long periods of time in one place and get stuck and have a hard time moving up that ladder. [cha-ching sfx] So I think often times people talk about millennials in very disparaging ways, and I think in many ways some of those folks need to sit back and watch y'all and learn from what you're doing, because that makes nothing but sense to me.Zach: Oh, listen. If you look at my little LinkedIn--and I'm not leaving a job every couple months, don't get me wrong, but I've zig-zagged. I've got a little positive zig-zag action going on, and you just gotta keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll show up to a whole new job talking about [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx] Like, I will leave. Like, I will--boy. Anyway, [both laugh] let's keep it going. You know what? And this is the thing, Dr. DeWeever. You're making me laugh more, so then I'm using more of these sound effects, but that's fine. I appreciate the encouragement. Let's talk about the role that intersectionality plays in the work that you do, right? And so Incite Unlimited, you know, you're a D&I expert--you're a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. What does it look like to discuss race and gender and engage white women, who may assume that your challenges and lived experiences are either if not the same highly similar?Avis: That's a problem. [both laugh, haha sfx] That's a huge problem. But in all seriousness, honestly, these days, I'm so frustrated with where we are in the D&I space period, DE&I space. I'm frustrated because many companies--and I talk about this a bit in my book--for years now, actually, have made the decision--they've made the calculated decision to preference gender diversity over racial diversity in their efforts and in their focus and programming as it relates to looking at DE&I and how it is lived out in their companies. And as I show in my book, what we've seen--and it's interesting, 'cause this dates back to 2008--we start to see a shift in who gets promoted to leadership positions in corporations, and it's interesting. It's as if there was this collective decision among corporations that "Okay, there's a black president, so black people have made it, so let's stop focusing on black folk." Right?Zach: Yes.Avis: And so what we see, if you look at the data about who actually gets promoted to management positions, is we see an exponential increase in the number of white women who get those positions, and at the same time we've seen a mirrored effect of a decrease in the number of people of color of both genders who get those positions. So now, even though we're in a time right now where corporations are, you know, every time, you know, you see them, any time you hear anything around corporations around this issue of diversity, a lot of them have a good, you know, shtick to sell. All of them know what to say. They always talk about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but when you actually look at the numbers, you actually have corporations that are getting whiter and whiter, even though they tend to tout the language of diversity, but they're just checking that box with white women instead of with people of color. So in many organizations you end up having what I call an organizational apartheid, where the leadership structures now are increasingly white, even though now you have more of those leaders wearing skirts than you did in years past. But you have even more whiteness at the top now than you did, say, 10 years ago.Zach: Listen, I had a--I was on the job, and I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about diverse the group was. And I was like, "The group is all white women." What do you mean "diverse?" Like, diverse in what way? Diverse in, like, that they're all not blonde? Or--like, what is this? And you're 100% right, and I--so look, this is the thing, right? So I am in--I'm actively in corporate America, right? Like, I'm in this space. I work for a large consulting firm. And it's increasingly frustrating, because you're absolutely--I 100% agree with you. I'm looking at the content and I'm looking at the way that things are framed, and they are often framed in very binary terms, right? They're framed in very, like, "men versus women," and it's like, "You're really going--" Like, it's insulting. Like, it's not only just ahistorical, right? It's an intellectually dishonest discussion. Avis: Absolutely.Zach: Right? It's intellectually dishonest, because in 1865, in 1845, all men were not doing the same things, okay?Avis: Absolutely not.Zach: Right? And all women were not doing the same things. And so it's like, "Okay, what does it look like to have an honest conversation about this?" You know, we actually had Lionel Lee, who--he's an inclusion lead for the Zillow Group, and I asked him, I said--like, we're just now getting to talking about black women from time to time, and we've yet to--I haven't really been a part of a lot of programs that explicitly talk about black male experiences, right? And I'm like--and look, I don't even do it and D&I is a large part of my job. I don't even do it because I recognize that I need to use my platform and my privilege to help my sisters, and--not but--and at the same time I'm like, "Dang, why don't we ever talk about the reality and nuanced experience of black men?" Like, yes, we benefit from patriarchy, and yes, we have--we have privileges that black women do not have. We're also seen as a threat at work. We're also often times patronized in a way, and it's a unique--but we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And you're right--Avis: You're exactly right, and I would say you also suffer wage gaps. Zach: Right.Avis: People talk about wage gaps as if it's just a gender thing. It's not. It's a race and a gender thing. So just as, you know, black women, for example, suffer a double wage gap as compared to white men--which, as you mentioned, we're recording this on Black Women's Equal Pay Day. You know, black men have a pay gap with white men of similar educational backgrounds, and so black men aren't paid fairly either. And then if you look within the women's population, black women suffer a wage gap as compared to white women. Right? So no one really talks about these realities. It's not as simple as just a gender dynamic. You're exactly right. In this nation, race, color, is--no pun intended--everything. Everything. Yet, you know, there is only a sense of urgency around talking about this issue of gender at work and addressing those issues. And, you know, my theory behind that is, you know, it--let's just be real. I mean, this white men who stand at the top of the hierarchy in these spaces have white mothers. They have white wives. They have white daughters. So there is a natural alliance there that they tend to be more sensitive to than they are to black male issues, black female issues, or issues of any people of color. And so, you know, I think it's important that we acknowledge that reality, and until DE&I becomes serious about taking off the blinders and having an honest conversation around--and not just conversation, honest actions around really creating equity at work through both a race and gender lens, it will really be nothing in many ways but a farce in many organizations, where they can do a little something, have a few programs on a few special days, but when it comes to really making [?] change they cower, much like the rest of this culture. It's very hard--I wouldn't say it's hard. The normalcy of white privilege in our society creates a situation where whiteness does not want to take responsibility for its actions. As we're recording this, not only is it Black Women's Equal Pay Day, I'm actually in Hampton right now about to attend [?] activities around the 400th anniversary of the first Africans who came to America. In slave ships. I'll put it like that. And we still--you see what happened when the New York Times published the 1619 piece, where you have all of these supposedly legitimate, quote unquote, voices on the right come out, and they simply deny the reality of the history of this nation. Yeah, so we have a relatively easy time in America at least acknowledging issues of sexism. Like, we don't deny facts when it comes to, like, you know, the history of sexism, right? But to have people act like the reality and the brutality of what slavery was, to call that propaganda, to me, serves as a great example of the level of dysfunction that we are in this nation when it comes to really being honest around the oppressive nature of racism, not just in the past. We can't even cop up to what happened 400 years ago. That really puts a spotlight on why it's so important and why it's so hard for people to cop up to what's happening right here in the here and now.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Had to give you a Flex bomb. You're absolutely right. You're dropping straight facts. Now, look, I want to respect your time, so let's keep going. One topic that Living Corporate has discussed in the past has been respectability politics. Now, I'm a firm believer that respectability still shapes a large amount of the ways that we, as black and brown folks, show up in any space. What has been your experience with respectability politics in the realms that you engage?Avis: Yeah. I mean, that is--it's a big thing. It's a big thing, where people have to make the choice, in many ways, like, how do you navigate situations at work where there are sensitivities around institutionalized racism. Do you sort of call it out at the moment, or do you try to play the game and hope that it will make--you know, things will improve over time? I really think--I personally have a problem with respectability politics, and it may just be that I'm a rebel--[both laugh]--but really, logically I'm thinking, "What are you really gaining when you're sacrificing your soul?" Really, what are you gaining? And then what are you changing, right? What you're doing is you're legitimizing the unfair behavior when you contort yourself in a way in which you have to minimize who you are in order to be accepted. I'll give you a brief example. When I--you know, I've had my locks. I have locks, and I've padlocked my locks now for well over 20 years. I started them when I was in graduate school, well before it became cool, okay? [Cardi B "ow" sfx, both laugh] And so when I started my locks, I remember my mom told me at the time, "Oh, my God. You'll never get a job," you know? But at the time I told her, and it has borne out to be true, that, you know, if someone does not want to hire me because of what's on my head versus what's in my head, then that's some place I don't want to work, right? Because that tells you something about that environment, right? And so to me that's just an example of respectability politics. If I have to change who I am to fit in with you, then I don't need you, boo-boo. I don't need that. You're not the only place on earth. Really.Zach: Absolutely not. [laughs]Avis: And that goes for relationships too, but that's a whole 'nother story.Zach: Oh, my goodness. You're gonna have to come back for that one. You're 100% right though. Okay, so now--[both laugh]--do you believe that respectability has increased or decreased in this era of Trump? And I'm gonna say era of Trump because come on, now. First of all, this is my podcast. I'll say what I want to say. But two, it's the reality of, like, the fact that we live in an era that is, in certain ways--so I'm not one of the people that thinks like, "Oh, it's so much more racist now." America has been racist since its inception. However, or with that being said, there is a certain level or spirit of boldness that is in the atmosphere that is, I would say, unique to this time, but not exclusive to this time. With all of those different exceptions we said at the top, do you believe respectability has increased or decreased in the era of Trump, and what role do you predict it playing for the next generation of black and brown folks at work?Avis: Mm-hmm. I think respectability has decreased in the era of Trump, precisely because of what you previously mentioned. I mean, in this time we are seeing a space where, even though racism has always been around, it's not been new to America, it's been here from the very beginning, we are experiencing a moment where there is greater social acceptability, or at least perceived social acceptability, for overt racist acts, right? And so because of that, people are engaging in more racist actions in broader society, which includes in the workplace, okay? And I think that it's also created sort of a counter-reaction, where people are also becoming more activists in terms of resisting those behaviors. Now, people find different ways to fight back, but I do think that where there is an action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and in this moment, while we're seeing a rise in hate crimes, a rise in hate groups all across the nation, we're also seeing [?] and activism to fight against it. And so if there is, hopefully, a silver lining that we might find behind this moment, it is my hope that what it has done is it has awakened people who maybe had been lulled into a sense of false security under the Obama administration to say, "You know what? We haven't gotten as far as I thought we've gotten. In fact, we're starting to move backwards." And I just can't go along to get along anymore. The time has now come to fight back, and I'm hoping that's what more and more people are doing, and from what I see that seems to be the case.Zach: I 100% agree with you. 'Cause, you know, as an example, Dr. Jones-DeWeever--so I used to kind of, like, take a break--you know, like, let's say, like, in Obama's time, you know, I would walk outside, just take a nice little stroll, but see, now, in the era of Trump, I feel extra black. So I take--I got my menthols, and I just smoke right outside. Maybe I take some Black and Milds. You know, it's nothing, right? I might even put on a durag, because I'm like, you know? You ain't about to stop me.Avis: Put on one black glove.Zach: I put on one black glove as I roll a Newport, okay? [both laugh]Avis: Boy. Man, you'll be scaring folks.Zach: At my desk. While listening to "Strange Fruit" in the background. Listen--[both laugh] I'ma let you go. We're almost done, I promise. Here we go. Your voice is a critical part of everything you do, right? So you're a writer. You're an advocate. You're an activist. You're an educator. You're also a speaker, and you're a political commentator in major mainstream media and independent media. What advice would you give to black and brown women who still struggle to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work?Avis: That is such an excellent question and such an important question, and I think it's first critical--it's interesting. I had a conversation with a client about this today. First of all, you have to realize that you do have a voice. It's there. No one has the right or the ability to take away you, what's inside of you and what's for you, right? And so I think just acknowledging that your voice is there and that your voice has value is the first critical step that every black woman has to take. And then you have to say, "How can I best use this to create better outcomes for me?" Right? It's about speaking up when someone takes your idea and tries to pass it off as their own. It's about making sure that you negotiate when that offer is made to you and you don't just take the first number that's thrown your way, you know? It's about speaking up in that meeting and making sure that your perspective is heard. So it's about not shrinking in those moments, and it's then remembering the powerful being that you are and that you deserve to be there and that, 9 times out of 10, you're probably more qualified than everybody else in that room, so lean into that. And that's the only situation where I would ever use the term "lean in," because I will say that, generally speaking, we all know that black women have been leaning in forever, right? But what I really want us to do is understand our power and to vocalize that power and to not feel ashamed about vocalizing it. And if you do get to a situation where you feel that the environment that you're in does not respect you, does not want your contribution, tries to minimize you or silence you, then I think you should definitely look at other opportunities, because this world is replete with opportunities, other job opportunities and opportunities that you can create independently for yourself. And so lean into the beauty of the brilliance within you, and don't let anyone else convince you that it's not there.Zach: Y'all, let me just go ahead and give some air horns for that real fast. [air horns sfx] 'Cause those were all big facts. My goodness gracious. Okay, look, this has been a great conversation. I've had a wonderful time. I also believe--I'm not trying to impose--I believe you've also had a wonderful time, and--Avis: I have! This has been great. Thank you.Zach: Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Avis: I just want some more sound effects, that's all. I'm just, like, really all about the sound effects.Zach: We're right here. Listen, I got 'em all. Look, me and Aaron--I'll listen to something on YouTube and I'll be like, "Aaron, go ahead and take that and drop it in the Dropbox." He's over here--he'll take them little downloads and put 'em in our little folder like [Cardi B "bratbratbrat" sfx] You know, we got all kinds of content, okay? So we're ready. [both laugh, Cardi B "hehe" sfx]Avis: I love it. [laughs]Zach: All right. Okay, listen, y'all. Thank you so much for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, we're everywhere. I used to say all of the little places that we're at, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, but I don't do that anymore. I just say "Google us" at this point, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause God has enlarged our territory, okay? We are continuing to expand and grow, okay? And so if you just Google "Living Corporate," you will find us, okay? We're on every streaming platform. You can check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate and look for us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, okay? We're out here. If you want to listen and make sure that you actually can check out all of Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever's books and speaking engagements and where you can contact her more, check out the show notes. We got 'em all right there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You have been listening to Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, speaker, educator, activist, mother of two, and all-around dope person. Catch y'all later. Peace.

How to avoid losing reliable supporters and donors? Is it possible to fundraise without fatigue? Join Huy Tran, Founder of Megadeeds (https://www.megadeeds.com/), as he cuts through the challenges of raising non-profit funds and the solution that will help make it easier for donors to keep on giving naturally. If your non-profit organization is running out of creative ideas to keep your donors coming back or you're a donor who's just about ready to stop supporting a charity because of donor fatigue, then you wouldn't want to miss this episode! Link to the Megadeeds app on the Apple App Store: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/megadeeds/id1382326748 ----- Dean Soto 0:00 Hey, this is Dean Soto, founder of freedom in five minutes.com. And we're here again with another freedom in five minutes. Episode. Today's topic is this raising non profit funds, the easy way, that and more coming up. Alright, cool. So today's topics actually be really, really cool. I have an awesome guest. We haven't really talked too much about nonprofits at all, but it's something that is is I've been dying to do, because there's so many things when it comes to nonprofits, that man it that in order to build a scalable, non nonprofit, you really have to have some things together. And one of those things is being able to get donations, right. But what happens when you're constantly constantly asking for money or for donations are things like that, you the, eventually your donors are going to start dropping off, right? And they're going to be like, dude, stop asking me for money. So all that being said, there's so I am here with Cui Tran, who has developed a really cool unique way of making it so that does not happen. So we How's it going, my man? Huy Tran 1:29 It's all good in then follow EW at us on the show. Very cool show. And I'm so happy to have can talk to you today about mega hit. Dean Soto 1:38 Yeah, no, I love it man. So you, you are one of the founders of mega mega deeds or you are the founder of mega deeds and like so So first and foremost, what is mega deeds and why did you create in the first place? Huy Tran 1:55 Oh, we make a nice is actually is we call us a marketplace? fundraising like you say earlier fundraising in the same hotel as probably heard year. You know, people thought campaign. And they just keep sending out emails and phone calls over and over. Please donate. Donate, please donate. I think at some point oh, no. Yeah, pretty high of it. Yeah. And we saw make a nice calm our experience is that we undertook we also participate in a lot of charity donation. And, you know, we kind of get high with just here in the same thing over and over. At the same time we hear from our previous and I'll finish Ebola, you know, what, if you have something perhaps you can sell them and figure out how to sell to the otter and give the proceeds to the charity or to the cause? Yeah. So we look at it as an hour. It's not that easy. Because if you need to do the three way facts and the I sell to you, but why do you pay the body and I know that you rz and we look at it and we live but you know as technical as is doable. Even that I used to run engineer DirecTV. One DirecTV so to at&t, I look around our stuff on our farm, you know, people on Facebook, Google Amazon, but like, Hey, you know what, I have some extra cash from the payout on the Mojo. Why don't I pursue our dream. So we spent the last year and a half to be without it wiki. Exactly how we want it to be it's a it's a marketplace where, you know, anyone who wants to help a charity off Bob and raisin can do it. And people can eat body. People can sell service, and use the proceeds to donate either 50% 25% of us are generous, and hundred percent to any charity or any cause of that choice. The family can I love it. No, Dean Soto 3:55 it's great. It's funny, it's funny that you mentioned, like, even the church thing. So so I'm Catholic, and, you know, I just remember like, I mean, I still I we still get it, it's I live in the country, so we don't get it as much anymore. But when I was in Orange County, like oh my gosh, I get literally every every mass, it was like, hey, donate to the past memorial service appeal, pastoral service appeal test or a silver spiel. And it was like, dude, stop asking so much. Like, that's all you're doing. And but if, but if there was like, if there was like, if there was something where they were giving where you can, you can actually get a good service, like maybe like maybe a speaker or something, somebody to come or something like that you paid and then some of those proceeds went to the church, then it's a different story. Because you because because you're getting value from it. And that's, that's very amazing. Huy Tran 4:56 You know, it's funny that you mentioned because our churches few years ago, we have some you know, we got we got some short and sweet on the say, you know what, if you have something that you can sell, who wanted to order and use the proceeds to give it to us, it'd be great. He used to collect item. And you know, price and sell but it turned the church into a garage sale. And unfortunately, people property is all sort of junk, as they thought is valuable. So with this, we call it you sell something, it has to be compelling because else nobody's going to buy it. Yeah. So you can no longer sell your very own computer monitor. The whole TV and thing is what I'm about to go, you know, you cannot bring it to church and say does this thing work to $1 but he can sell it and if you sell a computer monitor on a US iPhone, right? Yeah, with a compelling value. Some people will buy from you. And if you just want to donate half, at least you can keep the other half. Yeah, you donate all send the moment people pay, it goes to the church. So so lot of power where people overvalue thing they give you know how everyone just do it through the pasties on right. Hey, old TV what I have $500 Yep. My old Paul with $1,000 now No, you have to be realistic. Yes. Great, really good marketplace for people to get. Dean Soto 6:18 Yeah, no, you're totally right. Yeah. It's great. Because and then like, because so it's an iPhone app. And they, it's you you have to put something on there that it's not like you can go it's not like a Craigslist, either. It's not like where you you know, it's like I'm gonna just put up like you said, like this computer monitor. And it's and it's good. It's like it literally has to be a valuable goods or service in order when you put that up there and so, like, so, like, how has it been? Like, like, what I'm like what successes have you seen so far with the app when it comes to fundraising? Huy Tran 7:01 Right so so let's look at your first question first. Why is it unlike playlist we all know Craigslist is popular but it's why is I have this new land for scammer Yeah, totally you for go lyst like gab and people offer to pay you with my you know, personal jack Cassie check a lot of them turned out to be fake it you know, we address that. So same way anybody address you know, by Felton faction First of all, we actually use PayPal so you cannot even like fake the check or you know the money. That's the check. Yeah, it's exactly the same but the only difference is that you know, it's not a body just your cells are now the sound against the Wi Fi. Where's the body? Gotta go. Yeah, well, we talked about with eBay. We use eBay benefaction with very secure people don't have to worry about the bank account or anything because they're gonna pay him with a PayPal account. Yeah, the second also they decide to collect money they had to have PayPal. We also provide a rating system to middle of the evening so you know, if you decide to scam people call it you can do it on one, but Eva gonna charge back you anyway. Yep. So that is a YZT that are out and do have all the requirements on PayPal, but we didn't. That's probably the hottest. The whole tape out on out a Brita. Yeah. So you know, you Holly go on the app or website Elijah there's not not fundraising an app on our apples really hot. We go Apple have like, really strictly five. Oh, yeah. Mommy at a fundraiser nap. And, you know, after six months, we finally got approved by Apple. We've been using it popped up all in. I'm all out of all the local school district and I'm all out band. Yeah. And we're excited. It absolutely went away. We had visa when we thought I gave an example. We we tied it to a hospital in Vietnam. Yeah. And you know, it's pretty hot acne, global hard auto, auto nation? Yeah. Well, yeah. A lot of email support. A lot of them have access, access to fashion. Yeah. And, you know, some people want to gather while they eat on a lot of other seaboard and never use. And we raised the model so quickly, because I don't want to tell anybody, I lose our all you know, the call, but I mean it. Yeah. And we reach our goal way the ball out. paga. And obviously, you know, when you feel impossible, but we know we all have a limit on how much we can do with that. Yep. So we got people donate people. On board, we got a lot. me like, nearly impossible. Yeah. Dean Soto 10:06 For sure. For sure. Like that's that, like they like any especially in a church church setting. I mean, people just don't have cash anymore. Just and just in general. Right. You know, and so So to do that, like, like, that's, that's pretty unheard of, you know? Huy Tran 10:22 Yeah. You know, what we found interesting, when we asked for people out on the call, a lot of people have you call? And you know, you cannot copy church. Right? They won't take it. Yeah. If you have $1, you got back by you can do it? By dollar. Yep. Right? Why it gotta get a PT? Dean Soto 10:53 Go straight to the church. That's Yeah, see, and that that's awesome. Like, like you said, like, with a used car, if someone, someone buys like a, so the church doesn't want to, you know, have the have, or any organization really doesn't want to have like a used car sitting in their in their parking lot, all shabby, and you sell that thing for 500 bucks. And then it goes, you know, whatever percentage goes to the church, like, they didn't, they didn't have to do anything. Like they know, no inventory, know what, and whatever. They're just reaping the benefits of it in, like, I can see how organizations could, I could see how organizations could even like, they can promote and say, say, you know, hey, we're doing a used car drive or whatever, if you have a used car, just posted here on mega deeds, posted on mega deeds for our church, any used car that you want to get rid of just posted there, and we get the proceeds. And they literally don't have to do anything other than that. Huy Tran 11:57 All right. And we can walk, we would walk in with a cool little shake off. And right now we walk in with a School District of New York. Where my kids are. Yep. And you know, right. onto the Pamela the PTA off new school. By the PDA school year. PDA. Bye bye, cookie. Woke up. The school doesn't want to the dog. Yeah, but parent and suppose you, you buy you buy gold. And those go straight into the PDA do the school. Wow. Dean Soto 12:51 That's cool. See? That's awesome. Man. I love this. I love this like so. So what are what are some of the things that people I know there's a lot that they can do. Like what are some some of the things that you've seen that have been the most successful? Like has it been services? Or is it more more product type stuff? Like what what do you what do you kind of see? Huy Tran 13:19 We wanted? So we designed the app. And you know, at first we thought Oh, this is so cool. feature. And we launched it and guess what? Nobody can you know, you look at Asia. People. And yeah, we actually had to go back and how do we make it? So? How do we make it so easy for people? Now, you know, a mega nowaday, you know, nobody read the manual. Manual. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, that's us. And we all got it now. So that's number one. Number 2017. Paul, The Guardian, and you follow that law? and Alabama, you know, holy, we had a daughter. And, you know, that's why Apple very strict on that. But how do you? How do you know that? You know, I'm being corny. Yeah. So we had and while we you with that, that, you know, graduate? And you know, the fact you need to make it easy. Right? And I'm a three you actually have to fall by. had to decide that? Dean Soto 15:27 grand? Huy Tran 15:30 earlier? Dean Soto 15:35 Yep. Yep. No, you're right. Like, because literally, they anybody nowadays, because they attend, especially because the attention span is so short. If you don't have good user interface, if you don't have a good user experience, you're done. And so, so like, how long actually how long did it take you to? Like, so you built the first the first version, love it? And then it then people were like, I don't know how to use this. How long did it actually take you to do the second version? Like how long has this been actually going on? Totally. Huy Tran 16:39 And, you know, we, and we will die? We have you know, the user right after we get off the year. E boy getting back to them. So we've had on with apple? And we how do we go? Boy? Wow. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Dean Soto 17:43 Get out. Which is great, though. Like, it's, that's that is still pretty fast. But yeah, but yeah, the that's the great thing about that. I mean, it It sucks without with having to do that with Apple, but you know that the quality is going to be there, you know, that the safeguards are going to be there, which is a huge, huge plus. For for the for the app, and like you said, there's not a lot of apps out there that are able to do what you're doing right now. Huy Tran 18:09 I think we all only wanna we are the only ones that are. Dean Soto 18:21 See. That's where it's, it's definitely a lot harder. And, but that's where, like, the difference is, to me, such a such a big thing. And it allows because because with with the marketplace that you are, it's not the same as just donating, like a like a Kickstarter thing, or a GoFundMe or whatever it is, right? You are adding some kind of value. But then you like you said, you also have to be able to there's going to be people who put who want to put something up there that is that's not actually true. Like so like you mentioned, like the gift card, like if someone puts a $50 gift card, and it's actually not worth, it's actually doesn't have the $50 on it. You have to have safeguards for that, and so on, you know, so so that's, that's a that's a pretty, pretty tough thing to go to go buy like. So you said you, but you sounds like you have an engineering background that I probably made it easier. The like, what were like what was what was like, did you have one instance where it was like a, you had like a really major thing happened where you're like, I'm not even sure if this is gonna work out. Huy Tran 19:43 You know, I hated it. I go back, you know, 1990 a. Okay, yeah. And, and in 2008 Wow. So we will add an ad. You know, do I muted? Dean Soto 21:04 Exactly. Huy Tran 21:06 You know, what do you have? You had? Right? You didn't know? Dean Soto 21:26 Yeah. Yeah, seriously? Like, three months? Three months? That's a long time. Huy Tran 21:34 Yeah. Dean Soto 21:44 Yeah. Wow, that's crazy. I love that. So I always ask this, this question. It's up. It's what I call the five minute mindset shift question, the five minutes like strategy. Question. Like, what's something that like that where you like it? It you, you you made a decision to do something? That if that, that once you did, it completely transformed? Everything you did in your business? Like massively like, where were it? It changed, it changed the game for you or for your team or for your customers? Huy Tran 22:27 Right, so we have our own challenge. You know? Yep. Yep. To off. Yeah. So yeah. So we, Holly, Holly, Holly. Yeah. And, and we don't want to school and just follow them. All right. All right now. And if all you do that, you know, you have to believe it. You can't believe you and your family. You can do that. But as you bad. Dean Soto 25:16 I love that. I love that, like the making money right away. I love that. I love that. No, I love that. It's great. Because it it it. The I love that. I don't know I I'm a big fan of 37. Six knows the guys who wrote base camp. And that's what they always say is that like, you, you don't want to you want to be you want to know how you're making money up front and not be that startup that's like, like, well, we're just gonna get a lot of users, we're gonna get millions of users, and then we'll figure it out. Like, no, you want to know that you said you want to know how you're going to make money or, like you're making money right off the bat, because that is what is going to help build it out and grow what you're doing. Otherwise, it's going to just you're just wasting, especially if you're going for venture venture capital or something like that, and wasting people's money. And eventually, you know, it could potentially crash if you're just hoping to get bought out by by Google or bought out by some big company. You know, that only that that only happens very, very rarely. So it's, it's a great idea to just focus first on like, on how how, how is this going? How's it going to grow? By bringing in revenue? Huy Tran 27:05 Yeah, right. I know, we never want more money. Yep. Dean Soto 27:33 Yep. I love that. So how can people how can people reach you? How can people get your mega deeds app and so on and start start selling things for their charities? Huy Tran 27:48 Right. So you know, that maybe? No, Dean Soto 28:11 that's great. Huy Tran 28:11 Bye. And as a big love it. So Dean Soto 29:05 Wow. Yeah, that's really cool. So So someone jumps on and starts starts doing something for their church or organization or anything. You have a matching like actual matching program. Huy Tran 29:21 Right now? Yeah. Yeah. We go, can you go out and do that? On a minute. That's Dean Soto 30:26 cool. I love it. Man. This is great. This is great stuff. Huy Tran 30:38 We didn't want to go Yep. And then we're gonna be living. Dean Soto 30:43 I love it. That's cool, man. Well, thanks so much for being on the show. And for, for sharing this. I already know and I I mentioned to you before the show, I already know some people that I want to introduce you to because I know they do. They do fundraising. And they they also have a lot of connections with fundraising in general. So I'll be email. I'll be introducing you to them. But man, I just appreciate you being on the phone on the on the show is real pleasure having you on man. Huy Tran 31:13 Thank you. Dean Soto 31:19 Awesome, that sounds good. Cool. Thanks for being on the show. And guys, if you want to check it out mega deeds, go on the Apple Apple App Store and get mega deeds and start supporting your organizations that you that you want to support. I mean, what better way than to you know, just get started, get it on, get on get on there and start doing putting something of value on there that you can actually utilize to just start donating to your church to your organizations, your schools, things like that really, really cool. Really, really cool app. Also good. Go check out mega deeds calm. And yeah, it's you can tell this just this is something that I I truly believe is going to revolutionize how people raise funds. Because I know I don't like when I'm just getting asked all the time for money when I when I know that I'm able to get something of value, and it's going to a charity. That's pretty dang cool. And I know also on my end, I like being able to give value, whether it be a service or selling something and know that it's going to a good cause. So go check out mega deeds on Apple App Store, go to good mega deeds calm and get started with the app. But for now, we are done with this episode of the freedom in five minutes podcast and we will check you out in the next freedom in five minutes podcast episode.

The saying goes: “Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance”. This is the same idea as “weirdness points”: you can only bother people a certain amount before they go away. So if you have something important to bother them about, don’t also bother them in random ways that don’t matter. In writing about science or rationality, you already risk sounding too nerdy or out-of-touch with real life. This doesn’t matter much if you’re writing about black holes or something. But if you’re writing about social signaling, or game theory, or anything else where the failure mode is sounding like an evil robot trying to reduce all of life to numbers, you should avoid anything that makes you sound even more like that evil robot. (yes, people on the subreddit, I’m talking about you) I’m not always great at this, but I’m improving, and here’s the lowest-hanging fruit: if there are two terms for the same thing, a science term and an everyday life term, and you’re talking about everyday life, use the everyday life term. The rest of this post is just commentary on this basic idea. 1. IQ -> intelligence. Don’t use “IQ” unless you’re talking about the result of an IQ test, talking about science derived from these results, or estimating IQ at a specific number. Otherwise, say “intelligence” (as a noun) or “smart” as an adjective. Wrong: “John is a very high-IQ person” Right: “John is a very smart person”. Wrong: “What can I do if I feel like my low IQ is holding me back?” Right: “What do I do if I feel like my low intelligence is holding me back?” Acceptable: “The average IQ of a Nobel-winning physicist is 155”. Acceptable: “Because poor childhood nutrition lowers IQ, we should make sure all children have enough to eat.” 2. Humans -> people. This will instantly make you sound 20% less like an evil robot. Use “humans” only when specifically contrasting with another animal: Wrong: “I’ve been wondering why humans celebrate holidays.” Right: “I’ve been wondering why people celebrate holidays.” Acceptable: “Chimpanzees are much stronger than humans.” 3. Males -> men, females -> women. You can still use “male” and “female” as adjectives if you really want. Wrong: “Why do so many males like sports?” Right: “Why do so many men like sports?” Acceptable, I guess: “Why do male sports fans drink so much?” Use “males” and “females” as nouns only if you’re making a point that applies across animal species, trying overly hard to sound scientifically credible, or arguing some kind of complicated Gender Studies point that uses “man” and “male” differently. Acceptable: “In both rats and humans, males have higher testosterone than females.” 4. Rational -> good, best, reasonable, etc. See eg here. Use “rational” when describing adherence to a good cognitive strategy; use “good” etc for things that have good results. Wrong: “What is the most rational diet?” Right: “What is the best diet?” Wrong: “Is it rational to invest in bonds?” Right: “Is it a good idea to invest in bonds?” Acceptable: “Are more rational people more likely to succeed in politics?” (if asking whether people who follow certain cognitive rules like basing their decisions on evidence will succeed more than those who don’t. Notice that you cannot sensibly replace this with “good” or “best” – “Are better people more likely to succeed in politics?” is meaningless (unless you switch to the moral value of “better”) 5. Optimal -> best. I feel kind of hypocritical for this one because the link above says to replace “rational” with “optimal”. But if you really want to go all the way, replace “optimal” with “best”, unless you have a specific reason for preferring the longer word. Wrong: “What’s the optimal way to learn this material?” Right: “What’s the best way to learn this material?” 6. Utility -> happiness, goodness. Use utility only when talking about utilitarian philosophy. Wrong: “Will getting more exercise raise my utility?” Right: “Will getting more exercise make me better off?” Wrong: “What is the highest-utility charity?” Right: “What is the best charity?” or “Which charity helps people the most?” The same applies to “utility function”. Wrong: “My utility function contains a term for animal suffering.” Right: “I care about animal suffering.” 7. Autistic -> nerdy. Use autistic when referring to a psychiatric diagnosis or a complicated package of sensory and cognitive issues. Use “nerdy” when referring to people who are book-smart but lack social graces. Wrong: “Haha, my friends and I are so autistic, we talk about physics all the time.” Right: “Haha, my friends and I are so nerdy, we talk about physics all the time.” 8. Neoreactionary -> right-wing, far-right, reactionary. Use neoreactionary when talking specifically about the philosophy of Mencius Moldbug, if you think you’ve looked into it and understand it. If you’re just referring to far-right ideas, use far-right.

Looking for Mr or Mrs Right? Why not try the dog person’s dating app DIG? We talk to developer Leigh Isaacson. Adrian tests the Liker ball, dog Tonka tests a microphone, and stories about amazing dogs.Music by Kieran Ruffles, Patrick WauthierVisit us at https://topdog.space/ or on https://www.instagram.com/topdogpodcastLeave a comment for Top Dog Podcast on iTunes:https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/top-dog-podcast/id1468958645Links:https://digdates.com/

People often see the victim of narcissistic abuse as “crazy” and full of fear and doubt.  The narcissist shows up cool, calm and collected.  Right? Why is that? Because the narcissist has the ability to make their victims responsible for any and every negative thing.  Even things they make up…using our words!  They convince us we are crazy.  They convince us we are the abusers!  They separate realities and stay calm, while the light us on fire. You are not, and were not, crazy.  You were abused. Now it’s our choice to change our perspective, to accept that building our own safe, happy and authentic live is OUR responsibility.  The abuse was real.  We did not deserve it.  We did not ask for it or enjoy it.  Now it’s our choice to use that experience to grow, and to help ourselves and others heal.  

This week's ControlTalk NOW features Ken Sinclair, who takes us on a deep dive through the murky waters of Cybersecurity.  The April edition of Automated Buildings is a must read -- as leading industry experts weigh in with critical insights and comprehensive advice on how to eliminate as many of your vulnerabilities as possible. There is a great framework from NIST. Click Here to Subscribe to our YOU TUBE Channel  Cochrane Supply's Controls-Con, May 2-4, 2019 Detroit's MotorCity Casino ControlTrends 10% Discount Code Available 2019 Haystack Connect, May 13-15, 2019, San Diego, CA EasyIO World Conference, May 19-21, 2019, Amsterdam, Netherlands Our AI transcriber is not smarter than a six year old, so I apologize in advance for any typos and miss spelled words. The following is a presentation and the ControlTrends, Podcasting Network,you're listening to ControlTalk Now. The HVAC and Smart Building Controls , podcast., with the man the myth, the legend Ken Smyres and Eric Stromquist. ControlTalk Now about weekly podcast with HVAC,building automation and Smart Building Control News you can use. Now here's Eric Eric Stromquist: Alrighty. All right man. So cool. What Kenny man, big week. I know you stay busy. I stay busy, man. Roscoe went on in the business world. I think anybody in our industry knows to just kind of like a business has just fallen out of the sky man. It's like how many buckets can you pick up? You know, everybody's scrambling to get the job done and keep up with it. It's keeping us busy. It's a good thing, you know, probably not last forever, but hey, while it's happening, let's enjoy it. Right. I think Ken Smyers: totally right. I think we've come to a, an intersection where the, the, some of the hard work, the pioneer work, the, the, the planting of the seeds so to speak. And then the technology is finally coming into, uh, you know, the, the various modular levels that are affordable. They're understandable. And they're, you know, the ease of installation. And so I think it's a good time, uh, economically too. There's money is available. I know when you talked primarily about HVAC and building automation, you go into certain markets like the mush market, Hospitals, universities, schools, hospitals, and commercial real estate, you know, and the GSA. But uh, you know, the truth of the matter is, is that we've done a lot of due diligence on this and we've proven without question that if you take steps, you know, you fix your worst problem first with the technology. And we've had some amazing products come to being easy. Io came up with the, uh, the FG 32, I think that was one of the mainstays. Then you had to Honeywell, LCB has connect. Then you had the Johnson controls Verasus uh, you know, and you got links spring coming out with the five 34. You have the edge tend to device series coming out from Tridion on. And so all the major manufacturers and vendors out there to provide solutions have taken some of the major product platform and scaled it down so that it can meet the markets that need it the worst. And that's those 50,000 square feet and below. And so, uh, as you know, we keep track of doe and they tell us that there's a, there's about 75% the 80% of the buildings after this still need some love and care and some building automation. Eric Stromquist: So I think what's going to happen with that, and again, at ControlTalk Now, we try to give you control news you can use. So I think if you're planning your strategy now, it's like when the business is falling out of the sky, your strategy nowadays, he'd be just, how can we, how can we capture that business and take it and make money on it? But you will remember this conversation where the man, the myth, the legend told you that 70% of those smaller buildings don't have anything in someone. The economy dries up. You can put together a strategy and go after that. And of course we've got so many great products, companies are coming out with products to address that segment of the market or anything for viruses. Kenny talked about the Honeywell LCBS, well you look at EASY IO, it's great for that race to the small space. and LYNXSpring has a great offering. Ken Smyers: Optergey and LoyTech. I mean we're just, we're seeing the, that we're seeing a lot more. I decided I was going to do, hey Eric, one more time. Could you do that thing you did there about the, you were catching things falling from the sky because you reminded me of somebody. You mind me a Julio Jones. There you go. Eric Stromquist: Oops. Drop it. Manna from heaven baby. Yeah, Manna from for sure. Well listen man, we got a great show this week. Let's go ahead and get our first guest on and then we'll, we'll take care of some business after we getting a motto. How about introducing him? Kenny sounds great. Is the first of the month and you know what that means. Ken Smyers: I sure do. It it that Ken Sinclair from automated buildings have come up with another fabulous addition. Uh, we're going to be bringing Ken Sinclair, owner, editor of automated buildings.com, On to the show. Welcome to the show Ken and tell us about your April edition. Welcome, Ken. Ken Sinclair: Thank you very much. Really pleased to be on a controlled trends. Uh, yeah, our, uh, our April fool's issue is going to come online April 1st, but we all got fooled. And the fact that, uh, I wrote an article for connected contractor that basically linked to the bulk of the articles and uh, it was supposed to go out on Thursday and surprise. It came out on Wednesday. So I'd left us scrambling to, to make sure that all the links were, uh, as, as need as they could be. So we had a release then and a, we're in a situation that we can kind of release that side of it. And I gave you a little piece of artwork and a, an actual article that you can link to that it'll take you to most of the cyber securities. So where this all came from, his Anto, uh, came to me and he had done quite a successful, uh, cybersecurity a session at Ahr Atlanta. Uh, he asked me what he should do and I said, it's way too late. Don't even try and do it. But he ignored me and, uh, and uh, cobbled it together. Uh, it ended up being at seven o'clock in the morning, uh, which actually turned out to be a blessing because everybody who came to the cybersecurity session actually made it. Anybody who waited to come on the bus was stuck on the freeways and mix ms most of our other sessions. So it worked out really well. Anyway, from that, uh, that was sort of the first gathering of a lot of cybersecurity folks and he suggested that we do an issue and we chose April as a month to do that issue. And, uh, I'm, I'm extremely pleased. Uh, uh, it, it makes you realize the giants that we actually work with in the industry. And, uh, if you just flip through their articles, I got to admit, I just learned a whole bunch about the cyber security. I've always been kind of concerned about it, that cybersecurity has the potential of a mobilizing us and uh, I, I feel better about that now. They all seem amazingly enough, although there's five, six, seven articles, uh, all coming at it from different directions, they actually mostly all embraced nurses. Uh, a framework which is great. So we have some commonality. Uh, I just a whole lot of stuff and it's, I think it's going to be a great resource for our industry and uh, I think also it's going to be useful for other industries and it will, uh, it kind of gets our message out, uh, to, to cybersecurity is as general, it maybe identifies us more as it thinking people and helps with that transition. We all have to make really nice job on in Canada. I think this is that this is the edition that you want to print out and save because I think this is going to be something you can use for sometime to come. But anyway, Kenny, I'm sorry for interrupting there. Ken Sinclair: No, that was great. Wedge in on that is the, uh, mark made that comment. He said, this is looking good. We should make this into any magazine and a really the issue, the way we index everything and automated buildings is we never throw anything away. We have our very first issue is still online from 20 years ago, so this issue is Sabre. We'll say cyber security issue will be online for now for for as long as I I chug on. I'm going to talk a little bit about that later in the show. Well, hang on real quick and I guess it one more thing is we've got an April fools coming up. Can I got an April fool's joke? You should play on the community, so on April 1st you should publish that, that republish, that one from 20 years ago just for the, and just see how many people pick up on it. Then you can put that other one back home. Believe it or not, most of the, most of the words are bang on. We haven't really achieved much. We've been talking about a lot of this stuff for a long time. It's pretty, it's actually pretty bad actually. Some of it is. I've actually been doing that in a lot of my writings. I've been taking something from 2015 years ago and it reads great. Well, you know, can I think that shows that you're a precocious back 20 years ago, I think you were when it was first minds in the business, they're really truly took uh, you know, began to document and archive what is likely to come and why and why it's necessary, why you gave us good foundation and you know, you say you gave us where we're at now, where we're going, where we're going to be. But um, you know, the, the way you started off the April edition was you said that, um, I've avoided discussion and the past cybersecurity understanding, highlighting to potential security and privacy concerns can paralyze us for 20 years. We have operated in the wild west manner. And I think that that's, that's exactly right. And I think within this last two years, maybe a year for sure, the compression of seriousness that regard now the adoption, everybody knows their response. Where is a co Co effort, you know, we need to cooperate and collaborate to get things done quickly with cybersecurity. But I mean, just kind of in your mind when you think back, like, uh, was back that for instance, we really didn't have that threat. So I mean, it could have been the wild west and it could be, you know, just, you know, we were naive, but again, the world was different then and I think some of our protocols and stuff. So what's your thoughts on, you know, did you ever have an idea that somebody would penetrate your back net network 20 years ago? Yeah, I think you'll, we were safer back in those days, in the 20 years ago because I think the problem came is when we, uh, started to depend heavily on the Internet and we started to develop a web controllers and all of our devices started to have IP addresses. So what happened is we kind of walked across the floor and we became it people, but not really, uh, identifying ourself in educating herself as it people. When you talk to somebody like Scott Cochrane, he understands that real clear and he's all of his new folks. He's hiring are coming from an it orientation. And I think that's kind of where we're at. I think that's how we kind of created a mess by just, we took the quickest way and I think it was necessary because we needed to prove to our industry that this, it was serious stuff. Ken Smyers: Even doing it badly. Uh, it was amazing what we could do. So now I think we used to have to back up a little bit and clean it up, but my comment was is we have really achieved a lot and we, there's holes systems. Uh, you were talking earlier and in a boat, uh, easy ios session in Amsterdam and easy. I do. I always, one of the companies that was quick to basically move into an Iot, uh, environment and actually almost leave our, uh, you know, so I would call it, flag them as one of the leaders in this. But now we have to kind of go back and take a look of what iot rules are doing. How are we going to make all of this stuff safe in that I have a tremendous concern that if we make too many fences, we're going to be the people behind the fences. That's gets too complicated. And uh, so we have to kind of keep that Claire Claire and I was just extremely pleased with all these talented, uh, cyber security experts that wrote for us. Uh, it, it kind of reads like the WHO's who of a cyber security for our industry and uh, that they all are focused on the Nis, uh, model of cybersecurity and uh, and basically identifying the, the five components of that. And so that's, that's just a great feeling a whole lot better. Uh, my concern, my concern got answered in the, uh, in the, uh, article and actually then at the end of it I just added some stuff just a few minutes ago. It's the trouble with my articles. You think you're finished reading them and then they add another paragraph and added the a a paragraph about the charter trust that Siemens is working for with, and they're there, the Europeans are, are, are sort of way ahead of us, although I'm very concerned that they, they could fence themselves in as they, as you start to, as you start to protect our human rights and protect, uh, our products. Every time you put protection around something, it makes it less flexible and less usable. So they're two opposing forces that we have to kind of deal with. Give me an example of being fenced and cause you use that term, but can you give me a for example, um, for example at which, oh, I see. Um, well just at the same, the thing is so secure. Like the simplest thing is that you have to sign on to everything. And if, uh, if I had to sign on to comfy every time I wanted to use it, that would make it useless. And if I had to, if I had to, every time I went into a building, if I have to give permission so they can use my Bluetooth beacon, mobilizes us idea of the technology, gets it, gets stopped with the so much friction that it would be, you wouldn't want to use it anymore. That's right. And I think there's that potential exists. So I think we have to always be, you know, I am, but what is the reality of it? I have no problem with sort of limiting the amount of information that can be taken off of, uh, an iPhone or Dapa off a mobile phone. But to the proper, the proper manner would be is that it would stop you at the door and say that, you know, it's the whole thing with every website now that's warning you that it's using cookies and you can't, you can't move on the website unless you click on it that you accepted to use cookies. So it's like, do I really need that message? Change your password every time you log on and you can't keep up with your passwords. I'm flock out of so many of my sites for that very reason that I can't remember the password because it made me change it. And then I do three times and then it goes through this massive reset and then you gotta come up with another password and then I just go, okay, I'm not going to be on Facebook anymore. Yeah. Well actually I am running that same thing. Yeah. The thing I've done, I just given up remembering my passwords and I actually, every time I sign on I have it send me a new password. Wow. It's just simpler. And actually for some of it, maybe they've achieved their goal cause maybe that's the most useful. Uh, you know, did you change your password? I had to get it on cause I couldn't remember what it was. Well, you know, they're going to fix it that one day. Ken Smyers: I think, uh, you know it. Then you have that big trust. You've got different people like Google and Microsoft and they'll remember all your passwords for you and then they get to hear that and they get caught. You go to and Ken, I, I thought he came up with another one. I wanted to, I want to make this a, this might be the same when we write something about it. You said that we all take, we all have taken the path of least it resistance. I think that's exactly right. I mean, we all did just what you had to do. I remember the early days we just added for, we asked for two ports. You get me on the network and you worry about it and if I create a problem for you, I didn't mean it. Whatever. So, um, yeah, I mean you said too that the WHO's who of of cybersecurity from our building automation and HVAC industry. You're absolutely right. I go through this, the names here and I missed Fred Gore you the first time because I thought initially and he's, he's like right up at the top that, do you have a Anto? You got James Lee, you have Fred Gordy, you have Marc Petock, Ping , and you have Teresa Sullivan. You have just, just how many Kevin Smith's different CTO from treatment. How did you get all these people involved so quickly that you could put this together in a monthly addition? I mean, it's, this is a lot of network. Ken Sinclair: Well, I got to, uh, Anto helped a lot, but as I mentioned that a lot of it, a springboard off of the, uh, cybersecurity session in Atlanta. And actually that whole session is on the new deal site, actually is as much information as there is on the surface. There's, there's two documents. There's, uh, a report I wrote to try and put pictures and English subtitles to all of their complex articles and then linked to their articles, sort of give you some, uh, so you can get up merge and get up to ramp speed trying to get your mind around all of this. And then secondly, uh, Anto and I did a discussion, just a, it's like an interview, but we did it in the form of an article and we basically talk and link to each one of their things and sort of talk about the evolution. Uh, and of course this'll, this'll also get fed back on the new deal, uh, website that, uh, uh, okay. Anto maintains as well. Uh, symmetrics has been a real supporter of this. Uh, and Oh, the other one you missed. Uh, the other fame to more famous people are, uh, James Butler basically talks about the new, a BACnet, BACnet secure, I believe it's called, and an Ping of Optigo Hook, Ping Yell. And then I miss Deb Noller and, um, Jim Butler, Simon. But I just definitely, but it's an incredible lineup. You're quite right. I, I too was impressed and a, I think what happened is that is once, once they found out that somebody was writing, uh, was easy, when I reached out to them and told them this was our cyber security issue and we have some pretty good traction, then I think they, uh, they wanted to be part of it. They wanted it to be identified as a part of the solution. But the amount of information there is just phenomenal cause you, you click on any one of those, uh, industry experts, you get down to their site and then they give you their links and then their links give you more links. So from, from this, uh, I'm really proud that from this one page or this interview, you can, you can probably even go down the rabbit hole. Yeah, you could read for two weeks. But the good news is, is when you start reading it, there starts to be some common themes and some common cautions. And, uh, it's not like everybody's saying, uh, you know, do it my way. And that's, that's what the holistic cybersecurity is, is that we've got to do this as a group. We've got to do this as a, uh, a community of practice. And of course, that was our last thrust and it fits really well into this. And in fact, at the end of our, of the article, we actually identify a whole bunch of communities of practice that are, uh, that are, are, uh, are accurate, are evolving for cyber security. Right? Right, right. No, I like that. Conceptr, but that was it. Was that a Therse Sullivan a concept? Yeah, actually that Atlanta was pretty significant for us. We're saying, we're still talking about it. Uh, um, we did the, uh, it was called the evolution of a automation from ether net to emotion, our session. And we basically went back and we talked about, you know, the overview that we had prepared. And actually this is going to be part of my keynote at control con is that, so I've been 50 years in the industry, uh, 20 years of that is automated building. And, uh, so what, what does the old guys see? Well, what the old guys sees is that we went through a whole lot of technologies on our way from pneumatics to AI, but, uh, the only constant is the people. I mean, there's pets. He's there in the beginning and he's still there in the end. Leaves there in the beginning, uh, the beginning of backnet them and James Lee in San Francisco and the first backnet integration with train that gotta be 30 years ago or something like that. Ken Smyers: Uh, all of this stuff is, has radically changed, but these people are still there and the people and their communities of practice are, well, it's kind of keeps us moving forward. So I'm kind of intrigued by that. And of course, uh, the, the events that are coming up, we're all kind of part of and they become our community of practice events. And uh, certainly that's a ControlsCon is certainly one of those events. The next one that I actually used as an example in that article is aHaystack Connect because HaystackConnect grew. You guys were there in the beginning, you saw how it grew and you saw where it's grown to today. And it is certainly a community of practice when you actually attach yourself to these communities of practice. There's so much information and so much resource because there's very talented people and we're all working on a common theme. And the other thing that comes is communities of practice beget communities of practice because once you start working with this, we've got an absolutely new field. Um, maybe like a camera AI or something like that that we're moving into. We don't really know anything about it. The fastest way we can get from zero to, uh, highway speed is how along the ramp is basically catch on to a community of practice and join them and basically look for a while, find out what the heck they're talking about. And then eventually we'll get up to merge speed and we can actually drive along highway with them. Yeah, it makes so much sense. Can I'll begin by just going to go it alone. And this sort of gets back to a concept that a, either you or Kenny coined about the Co- competition, Speaker 5: whatever it is, co option. All good, Eric. I'm just don't know which analogy which one they'll get doing the random, in other words, we've always said that it's for our community and for, for the building automation world. HVAC I'm ever you, Eric and I were down with Marc Petock.. We said, where do we go? What's, what's our, what's our course of action? And Fred Gordy came out of, uh, you know, he was the champion and he was working with Billy Rios remember. Uh, yeah. And then next thing, you know, uh, it just started rolling. This big wheel started taking roll. And now looking at this litany, this, this faculty, you know, again, Deb Noller, Jim Butler, uh, ping a poke, Ping Yow, uh, Mark Petock, Kevin T. Smith, Fred Gordy, Anto, but Yardo Vr, Joel and James Lee. I mean, now we've got a faculty and then use that with nest. And we've got real great direction that we've gone from having little, uh, you know, kind of guidance. And what do we tell people? Remember that that checklist we hung up on the refrigerator with Fred Gordy. We put his, uh, 10 best things to start a cybersecurity if I get an internal champion, et Cetera, et cetera. But then, um, so it's really good to see that what you said with the ramp to the highway. In other words, we got people onto that. They can finally get a, onto a ramp and started learning, like you saying, and put, put things into context, you know, deciphered, filtered for themselves and their organizations or whomever their businesses. And then, uh, you know, keep at it to the point where you could get onto the ramp way in, merge onto the highway and be comfortable and be professionally competent in cybersecurity. I think it's a great analogy and I think he had a lot to do with Ken. actually Scott Cochrane and I had been fooling around with it as well. And uh, uh, my comment to him as I was appreciating what Scott was doing for me cause he was, he's, he's pushing me along the, uh, along the merge ramp and uh, he wants me to get up to speed before I hit this uh, conference because, so I don't become roadkill. But they, then they, then they were very polite. They re they redefined me as the road warrior. Eric Stromquist: I like it. What, do you guys ever hear of a book called think and grow rich by Napoleon Hill? Yes. Okay. So you know what it reminds me of Ken, and I'm rereading the book is as you know, cause he interviewed Andrew Carnegie and all these people, the successful traits of people that are successful in the top in their field. And one commonality they had as they all had a mastermind group of likeminded people that weren't what they would bounce ideas off of each other. And you know, part of Carnegie's thing was it no mind, no matter how good it is, can capture and understand fully. So, you know, it's almost like these centers of practice are also run me a lot of Carnegie's mastermind groups. Ken Sinclair: Yup. Yeah, I think so. Very, very much so. Uh, I mean it's a way we organize their life. It's kind of funny that, uh, when, uh, teres definitely I would have to credit her to, to basically putting the words around the community of practice. And then she went digging back into the history of how that kind of came to a play and then she put it in one of her articles and then I've rewritten a whole bunch of other stuff on, on that. And you're quite right, it, those come right from the, uh, from motivation. And, uh, but it's just a quick way and it's certainly, I mean, if you want to learn about anything, if you want to learn about video equipment, I'm sure you belong to sub communities of practice for video equipment. I mean it's, and especially with the Internet, it's just so, uh, probably burnt and, uh, everywhere so we can actually get this information. The other thing we've identified a is in talking to my young guns, my young editors is we, you know, he floated out the question is how did you get so smart? And they all came from various backgrounds. Uh, but how they got smart was they basically educated themselves and they learned what they needed to learn. And that's really the model that our whole industry is evolving on is, uh, it's, it's just so broad that, uh, nobody can tell you what you need to know. You just have to pick a, a threat of it on real quick with that because you know, I think, you know, you, you and I both had this concept of, you know, take a millennial to lunch or whatever. And you know, I've got two mentors, one them moves in his seventies and one of them who's in his late twenties and you know, we've heard him manufacturing, I'm throwing this out primarily for our manufacturers who are trying to train to get traction with people with their products. But you know, we've heard just in time manufacturing, right where you just build it at the last second, but with this cat's about, and what the millennials are about, it's called just in time learning. In other words, if you give them a manual, they're not going to start at chapter one and go all the way through. They're going to hop in where they want to hop in and then they'll go around it however they do it. So, and I think in a way that's a lot better, uh, I think they can get up to speed a lot faster and they're willing to make mistakes along the way. But for guys like me and you and Kenny is like, no, you start on page one and well, you know what the Eric, your, your your point. It's so true. Uh, in other words, we're seeing this, uh, I took a look at some of the new education going on in, in public schools and grade schools, and then we're not a young students are not learning how to write cursive anymore and how it's been antiquated and how it's a, it's a barrier to learning enhancement learning. But if you talked about the community of practice, can, you know, you had, uh, you had, uh, an initiative back when you were doing your collaboratorium that was kind of, you were creating that, uh, that exact community of, of, uh, you know, practitioners that were the experts. And then, and then to your point, Eric, you're absolutely right. Just in time learning. In fact, remember Ken, you did the didactic you were talking to, you were the first person that I read the didactic. Ken Smyers: I said, I just use words. I can't say. Yeah, yeah. You, so you said that what's going to happen is we need to put all this stuff into some sort of forum that's available and it has the archives from a to z and then that anybody that wants to learn really quickly can, can enter any part of that, that 20 year swing that you put onto your website and pull down meaning from it, and then just learn what they need to learn to get by the next thing. And Eric remember, we did a thing with a wearable technologies, how they said it's the only way they're going to keep, you know, to produce results in the medical fields and the gas and oil fields. And now we're gonna see it. You know, building automation is, you're going to have a home base and the rest is going to be camera and somebody at the site's going to be to say Turner wrench to the right. Three quarters turn. Good. Stop. Okay. What's, what's the pressure reading again? Show me, you know, so that that's the way the world's going to work because you just, you won't be, you won't have the luxury of time. So it's more efficient. Right? You won't have electric, can't get a semester's worth learning anymore, you know, so you can't read the preface and the epilogue. You gotta just get to page 38 were, tells you how, but with a point of dinner is made now knowledge a very democratic in its not for the, the fewest for anybody that wants to learn can learn, which is the really exciting thing about it. And so for our community out there thought cybersecurity was out of your purview,Ken Sinclair, begs to differ with you. Just go to his April edition and you can be a cybersecurity cop, Billy the Kid Rios. Ken Sinclair: Good stuff. Okay. The other thing I think we have to look at is we have to look at a ControlTrends.com is definitely a community of practice and a, your company as well, Kenneth and automated buildings is a community of practice. Uh, and it's interesting that, that you go into these communities of practice and then inside of each community of practice is a unique one such as Haystack Connect is inside of that and inside the haystack is a sand star, uh, community. So all these little communities are the mosaic that, that build us. And if you want to get going fast, you have to just, you have to go to the community that you need, you need to interface with to do whatever it is you want. Once you get to that community because they're all online. The other thing you didn't mention about how the young folks learn is that we, uh, they can just send out a blog message and they just ask. They just say, I'm trying to do this. I've read, they always have the politeness that they've read through everything the community has talked about. And somebody said this to even pick up on a piece of that and said, I need more information about that. Then you'd be unbelievable. The whole community jumps in and helps them. They're very collaborative. I think we grew up in a time where we, we kind of, we had to do it on our own and we were very proud of that machiavellian Eric Stromquist: my number, can I, how I'm going to take another step out of it was a competitive advantage to know something somebody else didn't know that Internet changed that. So the youngsters who are coming along, you know, you know, good blind horse, why hoard information, but back when, back in the day, I mean, if you knew how to calibrate something, somebody else didn't, that was your differentiator in business. But knowledge now is, uh, I just keep saying democratic. Can we get gimme the vogue vocabulary word for it, Kenny, that, uh, where it's a ubiquitous or, uh, that was, it's not for the democracy of, of, of what we're doing is basically, it's, it's, Ken Sinclair: yeah, it looks I know what you're saying, Eric. I'll think of it in a second. But you don't see, knowledge is no longer elitist, right? Well, you know, you, you and I went to Scotland at one time and that's where it really hit me the hardest. I mean, uh, the, the way the cat gets out of the bag and the printing press and, and when they said that the one, the rich benefactor for Edinburgh said, I'm going to make everybody learn how to read. And he paid for it and he then suddenly children were learning how to read and write and it went, it went backwards on it. Instead of reading right in the Bible, they became political. They, they came politically unrested but to your point, a printing press changed everything because I had knowledge and, and so I think that was, that was step one. Step two was probably the Internet, right? I mean, wow. That's, I think that's the analogy I was trying to make is that the Internet was designed for certain things and all these processional items you work per session. We have no idea what's going to go. In fact, I was reading an article the other day about apple and some of the other people, uh, they're thinking they've gone to a, met with the president and they're talking about re organizing the United States, his approach to education because we're so we're falling so far behind the world because we're playing all these education process leads to a dead end. It doesn't lead to fermenting exciting people. And they want people to, you know, apple, uh, executives were explaining, if you let these kids play with technology and they take a tech technological path that they're not going to be interested in geography or history, they're going to be at their aptitude, say, let me play with his stuff and learn how to program. So the whole thing is to how do we get more programmers and how do we get that step, you know, the sciences, the technologies, you know, how do we get people involved in anymore like they did back in the 50s when we're having this space race. You know, all of a sudden we produced massive amounts of engineers, mathematicians, physic, uh, you know, uh, you know, PhDs in physics. And, and just, you know, because of the educational process drove in that direction and led to outcomes that we're producing. We're engineers. So we're seeing this come up, uh, you know, our whole Orthodox approach towards education is being, is being reevaluated. Ken Smyers: What about in Canada? Again, Canada, Canada, is it, is educational system really geared up towards the sort of technological revolution? Like, you know, Ken suggestion, we're not necessarily doing the stakes. Ken Sinclair: Yeah. Not where, what's going on in the states, but I'm actually reasonably close to like local school because we've got a granddaughter. It's a great, uh, six and uh, and yeah, they, they use the web a lot. Uh, basically, uh, what's going on is on the school, there's a class website and basically what's going on, who's doing well, what events are coming up. Uh, that's all that's all documented. But to Ken's remark, I wanted to, wanted to just say that when, when we started in this industry, you guys probably had a better idea than anybody cause your fathers were in the industry. So you followed your father's in. But for a guy like me, I mean I'm on the farm. Uh, and uh, it's pretty hard to imagine what I'm going to be when I grow up. And also information is very hard to come by and to try and discover your passion. Uh, it just sorta has to evolve. And you basically, the first job you took had a lot to do with where you ended up working. Uh, now we have the situation that you can spend hours, days, years, uh, surfing the web and you can find something that is incredibly intriguing to you. And then you say, I'd want to be one of those guys. And then you start learning that from the community of practice. So it's, it's kind of that, that thing has been completely reversed. If you think about when we came into the market, what are we going to do? Uh, now the kids can, they, they've all got a good idea what they want to do because they saw something on a youtube that looked pretty fun. Well said. Well said. So tell us some more by controls. Come for a minute because you're going to be a keynote speaker up there. Uh, would you be giving it away if you tell us what you're going to talk about or, or, and if our community have to remind what controls Khan is and why they should go, how by giving the, the sort of the Canadian elevator speech, if you will. Okay. Okay. At Scott, he involved me in this and I, I frankly, I got to go to admit that when he asked me, it was like, you sure you want me? Cause cause it's a, it's a systems integrators, uh, uh, meeting is, that is the gist of it. And every time I talked to the systems integrators, they're doing more than I'm writing about. I, I have this perception that I'm on the leading bleeding edge. And, uh, uh, every time I talked to someone like Jason Hoc, I'll, uh, uh, yeah, I find out a whole bunch of stuff they're actually doing that I haven't even thought of or haven't wrote about. So, uh, I was, I was wondering what I was doing there to get up to speed. So I think what I'm doing there is to just maybe a, explain the, uh, the perception of time, uh, and just the whole, you know, 50 years in the industry who actually seen an industry go from pneumatics to a AI and just seeing all of the people, uh, part of it, uh, I think the other message is, is that we're all struggling, uh, great. Now to extend our best by date because the technology's changing so fast. We become obsolete and moments. And my only the fence for that is to, uh, basically grow younger and I've found out how to do that and how to grow younger is basically to look at all of our problems and stuff through the minds of our young mentors and, uh, who have grown up as digital natives. So I think that's, that's sort of the gist of the message is too dry and do that. The other one that is, I'm, I'm coming around to is the fact that there are a tremendous amount of women in the wings in our industry who have basically been a personal assistance for powerful people. And they have an amazing amount of information in their minds. Uh, and some of them don't want to be mainstream, but that doesn't matter because they can be very useful remote. Ken Smyers: So my reach out the episode is out, uh, this is a potential for our industry. Probably within your companies, you have exactly the same thing as somebody who's been quietly sitting over there in the corner and has been, you know, organizing all these products and stuff like that. They have a tremendous amount of information and they can actually be very quickly on leashed in a AI or a machine learning type of environment and they can be, uh, very quickly get us up to speed. So I think we're all looking for how can we get new people into the industry. So those younger mentors combined with our younger mentors. And uh, and the other comment I always make is anytime I talked to my younger mentors, there are comment back is they say, you should see what these kids are doing. They're looking at the next generation. And these are kids, I dunno, there, I call them digital natives. I don't know what, uh, these other ones are like a digital, maybe digital immigrants, let's call them that. Digital immigrants. They basically come from a world that they don't know. They don't know reality. They never, they've never experienced reality. They've only definitely I to tell you real quick, uh, yesterday I'm driving home from the office, you know, coming home and it's Friday and Fridays are my favorite day other than Saturday his, but anyhow, the phone rings. It's my daughter calling from San Diego, I think. So I hit the button, hello? Hello Lo. Nothing's there. I can hear noise in the background and I'm like, what the heck? You know, so I got a little concerned so I hang up my call her back. And by then she rang regain control of her phone. Her five month old daughter, my granddaughter apparently picked up her phone, not even really picked it up. She said she was like, she was, they hold the phone to her. We do so many of these, uh, you know, whatsapp videos. We get to see credible. And so the technology, I'm like you, I love every day that there's something new going on because I still can't, I pinched myself to think of how crazy, you know, this iPhone is and how to talk to Germany and I pay for it. And it sent a video where after you to take, or to shoot it live, it's just, we got to, you got to do more of it. And, and, but um, you know, five months old tap in the phone because she's been put it in front of her all the time to show, you know, grand the grandparents in Pittsburgh with what's going on. So they do a video. So she's so used to that phone being part of her environment that she's like in front of a phone and then they, we reversed it so she could see what we look like. You know, we keep saying the same thing to her that she could recognize our voices. So, to your point about the digital native, I mean, we have no idea that somebody, uh, as a, as an infant, you know, learning about technology and playing with technology and not reaching for things that they don't have to reach for. , people don't want to get out of their chairs anymore to run over to the thermostat and turn it up or down or turn the fan up to speed or whatever. Or to dim the lights or to close the blinds. I mean, why should they want to just hit their phone and say, you know, boom, up, down, cold or warm or whatever. I mean, and, and to have that mentality when you come into your workplace and to see where we're, you know, state of affairs. And one more thing can I loved you said about the best buy, best sold by and the shelf life. So where do we sit in the scheme of things? We're, we're like the canned goods up on top of it. Shelf, don't eat, don't drink this milk. Yeah, I got a kick out of that. Anyhow. Well. Yeah, I titled, I think I'm going to title my, uh, my keynote is the next 50 years. So as you can imagine, that might be a stretch for me. But anyway, back to the other comment about how the, the digital natives or the, uh, the digital immigrants, I think I liked that. I think we should call these the, the next, the next wave. We've got the digital natives that are pretty comfortable with all this technology, but the digital immigrants are these kids that are coming up now that have they lived, never lived in a real world. They've only lived in the virtual world anyway. When they, they looked at your problem of raising the blind. I mean, the first thing they say, well can't they just talked to my whatsapp and say, what's that blind 50%? And it knows by where I am that that happens. You know, like why wouldn't you just do that over all of this stuff? They don't, the newer group is not the digital Emeris Ted there digitally and titled Digital Trust Fund Babies. But your point, I mean, the more we learn about it in our, our realm, the other day I had to convert a bunch of Celsius to Fahrenheit and I did the old nine over five and I'm thinking, what am I doing? So I just said, Hey Siri, what's 50 degrees centigrade? The set points, you know, whatever, boom. I mean it just came right back to me, you know, told me the degree is 120 degrees or whatever it wasn't and I thought, or 170 whatever. And I'm thinking, why is my brain not letting me access and avail all this technology? Why am I so, you know, determined to do it the hard way. And I think it's just conditioning. So the two year younger mentorship and having somebody aboard, like you were saying, Eric, you know, it's just to remind you that you don't have to do it the old school way, that there's a option and the option might save you a lot of time about energy that you can get more done, more efficiently. So that's kind of cool. And then the kids taking a picture of everything, hey, you'll be writing down a number or something. They saw something you want to buy or something on a thing and, and they look at you and they go click, click. I wouldn't, why, why would you write that down? Right? Why would you do anything? And of course the other thing is, Oh I actually, I got a good story about that. We were uh, we were lost in the train station, then a Roman, our ride was trying to find us and that's what he said. You said just hold your phone up and take a picture of where you are and then I'll know where you are and Oh, you're on the other side of the term when all he said, as soon as we send them a picture. So basically he's on whatsapp and we took here's a picture and then he knew where he worked cause our English or Irish, Italian wasn't that good. But uh, a picture's worth a thousand words. You're on the other side. You're not, you're not on the right side. You said, I'm just going to park my car and I'm going to come and get you. Yeah, I probably at that same spot. You are a canon. Not I want to go there. You were carrying stuff the baby buggy and are no cars. Car seat. What all do you have? I saw the picture that I'm glad I didn't have to do that. Oh Man. I'll tell you what Ken and almost kill me. What their travel with the small kids and my wife's brother, uh, had a destination wedding and then on top of that it was black tie. There was an extra suitcase to carry all the, the black ties and do, it was just, it was nuts carrying luggage around. But anyway, I survived. I'm better for it as Nietzsche said. What your wife does doesn't kill you, will make you better. I can't. So we get, we'll see at haystack we will see you. Uh, obviously a Cochran, uh, April issue is out automated buildings.com. You definitely want to check that out. What don't you got before we hop off here? My friend? Well, I guess we'll all have to put her Elvis Skosh Shims on and go to real calm and Nashville. Right? Eric Stromquist: Absolutely. You're going to be down there for sure. Right? Ken Sinclair: Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to, but Scotty talked me into it so, oh man, I'll never forget it. Yeah, I'll never forget the time. It was so much fun and hopefully you'll do this with us again was, well I think the last one I saw you, I was a maybe San Antonio, but remember you and me and Theresa and Kenny, we'd always do our day one, day two recap. So cause we can't you on and being a recap or with this. Sure. That sounds good. Yeah, it looks like a lot of stuff going on there as well. Actually I in my never my never ending article, I also tagged on a uh, their cybersecurity a day before event that's going on as well. Cause I thought that was a kind of fit in, well with this whole cyber cyber security resource. I'm kind of trying to kind of put this thing is it's just a link to where everything that's sort of happening in the industry. And at the bottom of that is I've got these three events we've just talked about as well. So, Hey, I do, I'm going to say one more thing before I forget. Uh, controlled trans for anybody out in it's still not, has not yet signed up for controls con 2019 it's May 2nd May 3rd in Detroit at the motor city casino, we have a 10% discount. If you go on now to the website and you register and you putting controlled trends under the discount code, you get a 10% discount. And also with real calm, I be con 2014, June 11th through the 14th down in Nashville, Tennessee. We also have a ControlTrends.com Discount 10%. Uh, and, and when you register, you put it in and it gives you, actually, you have to go to our website and get the discount code. So I'm sorry it's not, it does not ControlTrends.com Is the ControlTrends discount, but there's a number, a little code you put in there and it'll save you 10% so you want to put that plug in there. Eric Stromquist: Excellent. All right, I can't send ken Sinclair, Automated buildings.com check it out Ken. Thanks so much as always man. We can't wait to see you next month and if you have something in between now and then don't be a stranger. Okay. Alright, thanks guys. Great stuff from Kensen queers always in. Hey Man. Yeah. We even talk about all those other great articles that are on automated buildings.com. So be sure to go to check out automated buildings.com the April issue cause there's a ton of other stuff on there. And Man, speaking of phenomenal stuff, our man Mark Pete Talk, in addition to being the master of ceremonies of the controlled trends towards, in addition to being the guy that broke Cindy Crawford's heart, New York City back in the day in New York City when we got started in advertising now he and the team at Lynx Spring had been acknowledged by frost and Sullivan. Kenny, I've got to get this right so I'm actually going to do, I want to read it. 2019. Global Iot and smart buildings, customer value leadership award. Way To go, Terry Swope. Way To go, Bob [inaudible] way to go. Mark p talk way to go. Everybody at the Lynxspring Group could get group of guys. It's nice to see that frost and Sullivan is acknowledging them. Ken Smyers: Congratulations job. It's, uh, well the, uh, the big phrase to eat, to eat platform provides exceptional service delivery and value enhancements through a well synchronized suite of solutions to ensure timely integration with a smart building infrastructure. And it has earned his stripes and, uh, congratulations to a very successful team with a lot, a lot, a lot of motivation, a lot of passion, a lot of initiatives. So they, they basically took that product platform, uh, from over here, kind of an obscure location to a front, front, front vendor position. And, uh, it's, people are asking for it now. So, and listen for our young guns, you might not know when we talk about Cindy Crawford and mark in the 80s, there was an error of the supermodel, Cindy Crawford, Linda vaginal, sleazy, Naomi Campbell and all that. And speaking of that, you know, I just got a, there's a text on the Facebook messenger here from a see Crawford going, how old are married now? Hey, mark, it's me, Cindy Holler, whatever that means. So mark, you'll just do what that, what you'll do with it. So one more thing. I just want to say that, uh, you know, much of the technology is available through the built environment, depends on systems integrator. So link Spring Pa did the channel of approximately 250 systems integrated partners throughout North America and a few select international countries to support the built environment effectively. So again, well done. Well done guys. Well I'm for sure I Kenny, what's, what's gonna be our deep dive posts of the weakness acres. We've got a bunch of them. Well, I took the uh, but we can only do one. Well I think what we have to do is we have to say that, uh, you know, one of the biggest hit posts that we've ever seen of all time was the two way three way valve diverting mixing and the second largest, uh, post performance was on gas pressure regulators. And you did a nice little, a presentation from the HVAC Tech SChooll from HVAC Tech SChool Play list,. gas pressure pressure regulators made easy. So tell us a little bit about that. I think that was posted the week. Well, thanks buddy. I appreciate that. So we got to go back to what we've been telling our community a little bit that we're really torn up the youtube channel because we get more content up there quicker. So might not always make it to the control trans.com website. But uh, so we, we created a playlist of you will called HVAC Tech School, this on the youtube channel. Some of these make it over to controltrends.com. Not all of them, but yeah, the gas pressure regulators made easy, uh, you know, how to install them, how they work. We actually take one apart so you can look at it, see how it works of your answers and gas regulators at all. And apparently there are a lot of people who do, you can check that out. It's actually on controlled trends as well as the controtrends, smart buildings, youtube channel. So I encourage you to subscribe to that if you haven't already. We'll put a link for that in the show notes. So that's a big one in the two and three way valves. Again, sometimes a picture's worth a thousand stories, a thousand words county. So we know we're trying to create video content that takes some of these concepts that can be complicated and make them really simple and we'll build off of those. So we're going to keep putting those up on the youtube channel and then, well no, a lot of them make it over the controltrends.com Website too. But another massively hit, and this is only available on the ControlTrends Smart Buildings, youtube channel is the midweek review, which uh, one of the smartest guys here on the podcast a does, which is Ken Smyres. So talk about the med review again,Kenny. For our listeners who might know about that and tell them what you do on that and why they, why this is disrupted. He usually do youtube channel so they can get that. Well I appreciate that Eric. I didn't have makeup on a day. There's makeup squad wasn't around so, but you know what I want to be because if you are where big trouble, I was just trying to say something it on there because that was a fast and furious post and the reason why it's like you said, we had so many dates that were coming closer to windows where you had, you know, sign up by today and you look for, or you would forfeit the opportunity for a discount, whatever. So we had the midweek review is to give somebody a three to four minute synopsis of all the industry events that are coming in the next 60 to 90 days except for our Smart Building ControlTrends Awards, which is going to be February 2nd, 2020 but tomorrow when your calendar in case you're driving somewhere and you listen to the show or whatever and you have an opportunity or you're, you're, you're listening or you're watching but you don't have a whole lot of time trying to give people a synopsis, a real short sweet list of what's going on and where it's at and what the dates of signup are. So you know, I covered the, the, the controls con coming up May 2nd, third and we controlled trans as a discount coupon there. So if you go onto and registering, you putting controlled trends, uh, we have the CIO event coming up in Europe and we'll be putting a post up on that too. But there's registrations and you take advantage of them. Uh, we're going to put some other information about the travel costs, whatever, just to lure people into a different alternative vacation this year because you'd kill business and pleasure in the same event. Uh, we have the project haystack out there in California. The, the, uh, what's that going to be? That's the 11th through the 13th, I think. Right. But that's why even I have to refer to it because there's so much going on. And then you go to the 19th through the 21st is the CIO and Amsterdam and then you turn around, you've got a real calm, I become in June leverages, so you're doing the conferences, but you're also doing it. And to Kenny's point, what, what, who is trying to be as on Wednesday afternoon, you can take that, that you can just click on that video, you get an update. But things like if there's a recall, if there is something going on in the industry, if there's a cyber security alert, something going on with Niagara or something like that where you need to know something immediately, what we're trying to do is just make it easy for you to consume. That could control is unique you can use, right? And so Kenny does a great job of that. So it's not just conferences, it could be a new product release, it can be news you could use. And I think that's the point of a Kenny just trying to break it down short, simple, sweet. You go to the youtube channel, you quick on this actually if you did the youtube channel, you just cooked a little alarm button, you'll be notified when this comes out. And uh, so he can hit on that. And then obviously on controlled trance.com you get this show, the long winded version. Well, and then when we take our time and we make it happen, Eric Stromquist: I'll speak into the long winded version. Uh, what can Steve jobs teach us about the smart buildings controls revolution. Now I got to kick of the stretch you made there. But actually after watching that again, cause I had watched that before, you actually did make sense about what it's all about. The marketing, how, you know, it's taken for granted. It's a critical function, but it's changing. It's evolving. It was infused with social media. And if you didn't handle it right, you lost, you lost a lot of your mainstream. Uh, but today you send papers out in the, in memory, so much marketing, it wouldn't even open up the envelope. You literally just took it from your inbox to the trashcan. So those days have certainly changed. The people don't like to take catalogs anymore, whatever. So we were seeing the thumb drive, you know, uh, became the big thing. And even that, starting to, I heard a, a vendor tell a group of people that were looking for, they used to get thumb drives every time they had the presentation. I guess there's no marketing says you've got to go on, go on our website. It's all there. There's no sense putting them into these um, drives. Cause as soon as we get them done, they're obsolete because they're old and antiquated and we've added new products and it's not serving the purpose it was intended to. Well listen, I encouraging of the website is so about a five minute talk that I've found that Steve jobs did and many considerate the greatest marketing message ever and it led to the one what many consider the greatest marketing campaign ever. And like I said, rather than Kenny and give you our take on it. I mean it affected me enough. I just went, holy smokes made so much sense in my, what I'm basically saying is, hey listen to it or watch it. I should sound control with each on comments. We'd love know what you think. But I think there's so much wisdom and just how, cause he's basically addressing his, his stockholders and then staff. Right. And, and it was a radical concept as he's addressing them. And that you kind of can almost hear a pen drop. You're kind of going, well, they're not going to like this. And you kind of starts out and makes a statement and he kind of goes from there and by the time he's done with you, you're going, and this too, just got it right. So it's not necessarily what you think about is how you think about something. And I think that that message carries forward to our industry. Every single one of our companies in our industry, I think can learn something from, from this. So please check it out if you check nothing else on Controltrends.com site and check that out and reach out and comments. Let me know what you think and, and Kenny what you'd think. And Hey, you know, we'd love, we'd love to share it. I thought no, it was, pardon me. Putting that up here is, I think this needs to be not just a post and needs to be an ongoing dialogue and needs used to be a dialectic. There's my vocab word for the week, Kevin, that we carry forward as an industry that, that helps us hall, uh, as we move forward in this incredible industry we're involved all involved in. Ken Smyers: Right. We had one more shoutout section here and just the, our Linkedin, you know, the, the folks that say good things about us on Linkedin and, uh, some congratulations for birthdays, a Adam, I'll pull grab ya from Poland. He's the chief Ito Iot, Bam. B a s P, m, a s h VAC executive, uh, says a, you know, he's watching our controlled trends. We've got Travis curr had a birthday. Uh, he had a art hicks had a birthday. Darlene pope changed job. She now works with the, we work. So, uh, Darlene and Lindsay Baker together. Oh Gosh. Yeah, yeah. Two of the brightest women on the planet together. Whoa man. We want to come to, we works and we've got a worked in Hershey Holler. Well, you don't have to cheat. She was always, she, she, she fast tracked everything. You know, she was really smart. She was just a great speaker. I remember, remember how we got involved with her? Uh, she went to work with the Jones, Jj, Jj Jones. Lang Lasalle. Yeah. And so, uh, well she's just a, she's burning, burning, burning to the ground here. It would probably say here, hopefully see her and Lindsay at Haystack, uh, connect, but hey, good. Seriously. That would be a great show Lindsey. And uh, and I know Darlene on at the same time. All right. Then real quickly we have worked anniversaries for Eddie Turner, uh, Stacie O'leary and Richard Satchel, so, well, there you go. Yeah. Right. Well listen, last big thing is definitely check out the Egio collateral that uh, that we just put up. A man eight is going to be quite the event and Amsterdam. Kenny and I will be there, but I think if you look at the collateral we just posted on the site, you're going to be just amazed. They're easy. I would just us things, top hat, and this is going to be an amazing coffee. It's going to be a really great show. It's going to be your product roadmapping, it's going to be networking. It's going to be an exciting partying. There's going to be a tax deduction. It's going to be partying cause mad Mike Marston, him and his buddies. Uh Oh. What? Oh, I know Johann Roxborough. What? What's the big deal? You don't want to hurt man. I tell you what, it's like hanging out with Russell brand man. But they get a whole new, it's a whole new staff. I mean, uh, Johann has retold his whole European division people. It's going to be cool. It's going to be great. Be there or what? The square where. All right. There you go. All right. So there you go. That's another week on control talk. Now you're smart buildings, video by video cast and podcasts. A special thanks to our guests as we can auto sing choir. Be sure to check out automated buildings, Dotcom. Com by April. First issue is ah, and it is so worth reading. So with that Kenny Smyres, remember be bold. Stay in control. I'm doing Mourinho sweat. Snigger voice Batman and stay relevant. Speaker 3: Indeed.

This week’s episode features Jeanette Bronée, performance strategist, culture coach, wellness advocate, and founder of Path For Life, Inc.  Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking “The Right Why®” so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about how we can create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement, and motivation from the inside out. In this episode, we talk about the intersection of wellness, well-being, culture, leadership, and performance. In addition, Jeanette shares a poignant story about her mother. She also sweetly talks about her father who was also an executive headhunter. If mental illness has touched your life, or you simply want to know how to take better care of yourself, and also want to know what well-being has to do with leadership and performance, I promise you don't want to miss this episode. Sit back and listen to a special and very human episode of Let’s Fix Work. In this episode, you’ll hear: Jeannette’s idea of changing the nature of work and the importance of self-care Her unique approach to fixing work Applying the methodology of thinking as your employee’s clients when a conflict arises, how it can help clear the fog and makes relationships a little bit different What is making us sick at work and how we can overcome it The connection between nutrition and work and what Jeannette is doing to advocate for better nutrition Advocacy of mindfulness, what it is, and the applicability for the workforce Jeannette’s thoughts on creating a company culture of pausing, and what could change The role of leadership in fixing work, creating a less toxic and more engaging culture, climate, and work environment Resources from this episode: Thank you to our sponsor: Ultimatesoftware.com/LFW Website: http://www.jeanettebronee.com For videos:https://www.jeanettebronee.com/keynote-speaker/ Blog: http://pathforlife.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/jeanettebronee LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee *** We're proud to be sponsored by Ultimate Software. They're a leading cloud provider of people management solutions with a commitment to continuing education for HR, talent, and payroll professionals. Ultimate Software is hosting dozens of free educational HR workshops around the country. Check out ultimatesoftware.com/LFW for more information on how to earn free HRCI, SHRM, and APA recertification credits.

Jeanette Bronée    Jeanette Bronée Performance Strategist, Culture Coach, International Keynote & TEDx Speaker, Author & Founder of Path for Life Inc.   Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the Right Why™ so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about creating a culture of care, that integrates tech and humanity so we can unlock what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For the past 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional, social and mental wellbeing affect our performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy as well as leadership and team-development to help people work better by working healthy. Born in Denmark, she believes that a work-culture of care drives “happy performance” and investing in people’s health at work, is the most important foundation for sustainable success, both personal and organizational.   Website: http://www.jeanettebronee.com For videos: https://www.jeanettebronee.com/keynote-speaker/ blog: http://pathforlife.com twitter: @jeanettebronee LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee   Listen to another #12minconvo    

In this episode, Christina Martini and Jeanette Bronée discuss:. The evolution of leadership. How millennial’s are changing the work environment. Scheduling in your self-care, including meals, throughout the day. Key Takeaways: Ask the “right why.” It is important to acknowledge what is and is not working in your life, accept what you may not be able to change right now, and work towards solutions to help you achieve your goals. Mindfulness, particularly as it relates to self-care, is critically important. “Don’t fix what’s broken, focus on what you want to achieve. What’s broken might not need to be fixed, you may just need to add something to it so it can self-heal.” —  Jeanette Bronée About Jeanette Bronée: Jeanette Bronée is a performance strategist, international TEDx and keynote speaker, author and founder of the company Path for Life Inc. Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the “Right Why®” so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about how we can create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional, social and mental wellbeing affect our performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy to help people work better by working healthy. Born in Denmark, she believes that a work-culture of care drives “happy performance” and that investing in people’s health at work, is the most important foundation for sustainable success, both personal and organizational. Connect with Jeanette Bronée: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/pathforlife) Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/pathforlife/) Website: (https://www.jeanettebronee.com/) Blog: (https://pathforlife.com/) Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/pathforlife/) LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee/) Connect with Christina Martini: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/TinaMartini10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Website: (http://www.paradigmshiftshow.com/) LinkedIn: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinamartini) Email: christinamartini.paradigmshift@gmail.com Show notes by Podcastologist: Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by (https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/) You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

NURTURING PEAK PERFORMANCE AND FULFILLMENT THROUGH CREATING A CULTURE OF CARE – AN INTERVIEW WITH JEANETTE BRONÉE In this episode, Christina Martini and Jeanette Bronée discuss: What is self-care, and why is it important? Signals to watch for that we need to make some changes in our work environment. What stress is on a physiological level. Key Takeaways: Self-care is critically important for peak performance and fulfillment. There are simple ways to ensure you are properly self-managing at work and at home. There are simple ways to implement self-care practices at work. “Small moments of pausing during the day are really, really important.” —  Jeanette Bronée About Jeanette Bronée: Jeanette Bronée is a performance strategist, international TEDx and keynote speaker, author and founder of the company Path for Life Inc. Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the “Right Why®” so they can lead themselves and their people better and achieve sustainable success. She is passionate about how we can create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional, social and mental wellbeing affect our performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy to help people work better by working healthy. Born in Denmark, she believes that a work-culture of care drives “happy performance” and that investing in people’s health at work, is the most important foundation for sustainable success, both personal and organizational. Connect with Jeanette Bronée: Twitter:  @pathforlife (https://twitter.com/pathforlife) Facebook:  Path for Life (https://www.facebook.com/pathforlife/) Website:  JeanetteBronee.com (https://www.jeanettebronee.com/) Blog:  PathForLife.com  (https://pathforlife.com/) Instagram:  @pathforlife (https://www.instagram.com/pathforlife/) LinkedIn:  Jeanette Bronée (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee/) Connect with Christina Martini: Twitter:  @TinaMartini10 (https://twitter.com/TinaMartini10?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Website:  www.paradigmshiftshow.com (http://www.paradigmshiftshow.com/) LinkedIn:  Christina Martini (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinamartini) Email:  christinamartini.paradigmshift@gmail.com (mailto:christinamartini.paradigmshift@gmail.com) Show notes by Podcastologist: Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by  Turnkey Podcast Productions. (https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/)  You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

On this episode of the Healthy Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Jeanette Bronée on the show to discuss mindfulness.  Jeanette helps leaders and companies rethink performance by asking the “Right Why®.” She teaches them how to create a culture of care by unlocking what truly drives performance, engagement and motivation from the inside out. For 15 years, she has coached clients and delivered speeches about how physical health and emotional-mental wellbeing affect performance and prevent stress and burnout. She shows how focusing on how our mindset affects our self-care habits at work and at home and believes, that when we leave our humanity at the door when we go to work, we leave behind our most valuable resource for success. She incorporates her background in integrative nutrition, mindfulness and hypnotherapy to help people work better by working healthy. In this episode, we discuss: -How to ask the right why to find a way forward -Practical exercises to ground yourself in stressful situations -The use of metaphors to describe experiences -How mindfulness can facilitate change -And so much more!   “If we can refocus our question, then our unconscious mind will help us find the answer.”   “We find solutions by acknowledging what’s not working and then moving into curiosity.”   “If we don’t pause for a moment, we can’t even listen.”   “We’re not running out of time, we’re running out of focus.”   “We don’t solve problems in a new way under stress, we just repeat what we’ve always done.”   “Our self-talk really creates our experience.”   For more information on Jeanette: When Jeanette Bronée’s parents both died of cancer just one year apart, she was told it wasn’t a matter of if, but when she would get cancer, too. So she took charge of her health and wellbeing, sharing what she learned about the power of mindfulness by founding Path for Life in 2004. Since then, she has taught more than half a million people how to ask the “Right Why” to unlock the answers that prevent burnout, fuel peak performance and create a culture of care. Now, she helps leaders and companies rethink performance and culture to create sustainable success by supporting our most important resource -- our human resource. She has delivered TEDx talks, as well as keynote speeches and workshops at corporate events and workshops around the world. Her book, EAT TO FEEL FULL, a guide for eating to thrive, gained nationwide recognition in the news media as a new approach to health and eating that helps us break with our dieting mentality and focus on eating to fuel our performance.  She holds a business, marketing and communications degree and is a certified Integrative Functional Nutrition and Meta-Medicine Health Coach. As a Hypno-Therapist, she uses the power of the mind to create change (but don’t worry she doesn’t do tricks). She is also a Certified Felt Sense Focusing Professional, which she has found to be the key to learning what drives our choices and how we can take charge of our wellbeing.   Resources discussed on this show: Path for Life Website Jeanette Bronée Website Jeanette Bronée LinkedIn Jeanette Bronée Twitter Free Gift: Use code “Healthy” for 30% off the yearly online program Get Healthy Online   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!   Have a great week and stay Healthy Wealthy and Smart!    Xo Karen    

People often see the victim of narcissistic abuse as “crazy” and full of fear and doubt.  The narcissist shows up cool, calm and collected.  Right? Why is that? Because the narcissist has the ability to make their victims responsible for any and every negative thing.  Even things they make up…using our words!  They convince us we are crazy.  They convince us we are the abusers!  They separate realities and stay calm, while the light us on fire. You are not, and were not, crazy.  You were abused. Now it’s our choice to change our perspective, to accept that building our own safe, happy and authentic live is OUR responsibility.  The abuse was real.  We did not deserve it.  We did not ask for it or enjoy it.  Now it’s our choice to use that experience to grow, and to help ourselves and others heal.  

Why is illegal immigration such a hot button topic on the Right? Why are people defending Trump's terrible immigration policy? What has been the most irrating situation when it comes to talking about illegal immigration in this current political climate?

Steve Larsen: Hey, what's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen. I have a very special episode for you guys today. I have a guest that I'm bringing on the show. His name is John Ferguson. John Ferguson is an expert in face to face selling of MLMs. He's been hired and worked for the Rich Dad company. He has been ... He's one of the guys that MLMs hire and bring in to help improve their entire sales process. He creates scripts to help sell products, he helps scripts ... He create scripts that lets you sell your MLM product in a way to people you've never met before that is not pushy. So I'm very excited for him to be a here. It is a treat to have him and please take notes on this. This is not your normal kind of a thing, and I had to beg him to get on the episode here. So I'm excited. Let's go ahead and jump into the episode today. So here's the real mystery. How do real MLMers like us [inaudible 00:00:48] and only bug family members and friends, who wanna grow a profitable home business, how do we recruit A players into our down lines and create extra incomes, yet still have plenty of time for the rest of our lives? That's the blaring question and this podcast will give you the answer. My name is Steve Larsen and welcome to Secret MLM Hacks Radio. You guys actually have a really special treat. I'm excited. I have a guess on the show with me today and his name is John Ferguson and literally every time I speak with him, I feel like I learn and I grow, and there's different things that I learn about the MLM industry. I learn about what he's doing and frankly, it's amazing, the resume that John has and I wanna bring him on the show here and give you guys a chance to be elevated for ... with what he's being doing. So without further ado, John how's it going? John Ferguson: Doing fantastic Steve and I'm super stoked to be here. I'm glad you invited me on. I am ready to deliver and I appreciate that introduction dude. I feel like a hero already. Steve Larsen: You are. I feel like ... I don't know. Every time I speak with you, you're like, "Oh, yeah. I helped ..." I don't know if I can say this, "Yeah, I helped Robert Kiyosaki. I helped this huge person over here. I set this MLM up over there." Like what? Like you've been doing a ton of stuff. John Ferguson: Yeah. I've kind of tried ... I've played the backend role for a number of years, where like you mentioned the Rich Dad organization, I really played that backend role. If you think about like Batman, he's got not Robin, which was the sidekick, but Alfred. Right? Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: The guy that's making sure all the gadgets work, make sure that Batman's not getting himself into trouble and it's really a role that in the past, has really helped a lot of people like people you just mentioned. So I ... It's a lot of fun for me to see others succeed with the systems and tools and the coaching and mentoring that you offer them. So yeah, it's been an awesome career so far. Steve Larsen: Now I wanna be able to go through kinda how you got into this and did it and all, but could you just ... For everyone else on here, if they don't know the amazing John Ferguson, could you just give us a run down of what it is that you actually do when you say Rich Dad organization and the other ones you've worked with? John Ferguson: Yeah, certainly. So what I do is I help closers sell more. Okay. I help individuals who've never sold in their lives sell their first sale. When it comes down to network marketing and multi-level marketing, I find there's a lot more nurturers than really the A type personalities, and for me what we do, is we take individuals by the hand, we guide and we direct them through selling without selling. And I know that sounds kinda weird, 'cause you're like, "What's selling without selling? Like you've gotta sell." Right? Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: What it is, is I remove the ... we remove the animosity by helping people learn an evaluation process like stepping people, rather than just going in like a hardcore close. Steve Larsen: Sure. John Ferguson: [inaudible 00:03:52]. So that's really what we do. We ... In the past like with the Rich Dad organization, I came in and contracted as a trainer and I worked a number of years, where we took their telemarketing, their speakers, their trainers, their coaches and really developed them in some better methods of asking better questions to help get to the root of the desire and the needs of people and then we can deliver that, through the products and services that we offer. And the cool thing about MLM is that there are so many people that need so many things and I buy so much stuff from network marketing companies. I think I'm like ... on like an auto ship for like seven different ones. It's not that I sell their stuff. It's that there are so many wonderful products out there, I wanna help other people get them to the marketplace and get them in the hands of consumers and eliminate that fear of enrolling people and making a sale. Steve Larsen: That's incredible. I mean so you've done it ... I mean you have quite the rap sheet and thanks for explaining that. I knew you'd do a better job than I would doing that, after talking with you extensively this past little while ... past few months, but are you ... I guess ... there's two different directions I want to go with this. My brain is just all over the place. I'm excited to have you on here. Is ... Do you use a lot of like spin selling methods, like the book Spin Selling? Is it that kind of thing a little bit? John Ferguson: You know, it's more direct and- Steve Larsen: Okay. John Ferguson: I'm not the proponent network marketing that is gonna always jump after mom, dad, sisters, cousin, next door neighbor's dog and try to invite them into my network marketing business. I've never done that in sales either. What I like to do is, I like to put out the proper marketing, which I know that your people are learning some phenomenal tools Steve and you're teaching them how to attract the right people ... actually people who really want what you have and then enroll them and get them buying from you. And so my ... And is coming on the backend of that is, is how do I determine ... Like how do I determine the wants, the desires, the needs from somebody? And so I take them through a series of questions, like broad based questions, pointed questions and direct questions and I always get the question, "Hey, John isn't a pointed question a direct question?", and not really. A pointed question just kind of gets more to the point and a direct question is literally right on the money. It's right when you're going for like the heart of the matter. And so if we can learn to ask a little bit better questions, what I can do is I can find out exactly what their needs are, where their pain is, and I'm not usually paying to like make that person really feel it 'cause who wants someone to like squeeze their wound, right? Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: "Hey, you've got a cut there. Let me get some salt water and just start spraying it on there." No. Okay. But we need to know where the pain is so that we can move them away from it or motivate them towards pleasure and that pleasure point is what I'm after mainly, because we live in a day and age right now that everyone can see through the BS. Like their belief systems, not the other BS. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: Okay. But where there's so much on the internet, there's so much on YouTube, there's so much all over the place that we just want the information we need now, but we also wanna know that the individual that is working with us is gonna help us for us right, and really cares. And so, our method allows our closers to step into a role ... You know I wouldn't wanna say expert advisor because I don't think coaching closes. It's not something that I believe. I've had a lot of people go from the coaching industry into selling and when they coach, they can't close because they get so much information. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: The person is like, "Oh, this is great. I'm gonna go out there and do it." So- Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: When it comes to our method, it's really just getting to the root ... It's human communication, man. It's just understanding what your goals and focus and expectations and you as the closer, knowing your product well enough, knowing your services well enough, that you're able to match what is needed and what is and what is desired with that individual in a way that they beg to buy from you. I mean it's backwards. Like if you wanna call it something, I wouldn't call it spin selling. Let's say backwards closing or something like that. Steve Larsen: Right. That's interesting. Do you mind giving a few examples of like the kind of questions you would ask? I guess you and I meet on the street and I show a little bit of interest in what you're doing. What would you ask me? John Ferguson: So here's the thing, I would first off ... If we're gonna meet on the street, like we're at Barnes and Noble or we're in some book store or some function, and I believe you have some type of an interest in my business. Right? So for instance, one of the easier ones out there right now is like health and fitness or real estate, it's a pretty hot topic. So what I wanna do is, I wanna just kinda ask you a broad question. Right? Steve Larsen: Okay. John Ferguson: So for what I would do is this, I really just kinda get in it, "So what do you currently do for a living?" Right? And someone's gonna say, "Well I'm a tractor driver." And I go, "Wow. How long have you been doing that for?" And they're gonna say, "Well, I've been doing that for 16 years." And I go, "Oh, man. You must love it." Steve Larsen: Okay. John Ferguson: And that answer right there is an answer and a question all at the same. Once, I'm slapping them upside the head- Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: Going, "Wow, I love it." Steve Larsen: Interesting. John Ferguson: And then they're gonna say, "Not really." or they go, "You know what? It's not bad going through other people's junk. I just don't see retirement in it." Right? So you're gonna find out an answer ... What I'm doing there, is I'm trying to poke them a little bit without being rude and I don't wanna create a situation where I'm hurting anybody. But I wanna find out, "Okay. Where are you at? Like are you ready to move out of this thing or you're in dysfunction for what?" And if they say, "Look yeah, I hate it. I wanna get out. I've been stuck in it for a number of years." And then I'd say, "Well, fantastic." Right? "So what would you be doing?" or "What ... If you had a better opportunity, what would your life look like?" So what I'm trying to do is I'm giving some broad questions to find out where this individual may fit and I'm building rapport, but I'm gonna stay on an agenda. My agenda is to get them to a more pointed question on how I can get this person into my business now. So I'm ask, "So would you keep your ..." The classic, "Do you keep your options open for making more money?" I don't like that question. Steve Larsen: Yeah, I don't either. John Ferguson: I don't usually use that question because it's too weird. Like for me, it just makes me feel weird. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: So ... You know shower time. No. So what I gotta do now is I just say, "Hey look ..." I tell him what I'm doing. I say, "Look, I've been a real estate investor for 17 years. I'm looking for some individuals that might qualify to work with me in that arena. Have you ever thought about real estate investing as an option to make more money?" So I'm gonna get a little more direct, a little more pointed on my questioning and I'm gonna ask him right, and if they're in a real estate function or if they're in a network marketing function or I'm going ... So I'm never just going blind a lot of the times into ... just question people off the street. I believe that if you ... there's enough people out there that we can target the proper marketing to attract people on the front end, that by process allows me to help them through all the way to the backend in becoming a buyer. Steve Larsen: Interesting. John Ferguson: So pointed questions. If I was giving all pointed questions, I'd just ask him for instance, if that person said, "Yeah. I'm looking for something better." I say like, "How would you like to better your experience in life?" Right? And they're gonna [inaudible 00:11:16] what they wanna accomplish. Now I'm not gonna get into becoming their buddy. Okay. Those questions aren't gonna be for me to go okay, they say, "Well better life ..." They say, "Well, I'd love to travel more." And if I get into a discourse of, "Oh, I've been here. I've been there. Oh, my life because of what I've been doing in my business has allowed me to do this." I get into my like 30 minute pitch on how great my life is because of my business, I've just lost those guys. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: They don't care. Like they really don't care. What they care about is, is that you care that they care about what they want. I know that sounds a little weird, but that's what it is and if I'm able to say, "Oh, that's fantastic. I love travel too. I've had the blessing of being able to travel with what I do." And then follow it up ... That statement always opens up another question, "Where would you travel if you had the time and money? Like if money wasn't an option, time wasn't an option. If you weren't dumping trash, where would you go?" Right? And be genuine, like literally we've gotta be more interested. It's about questioning rather than dictating and I think that's where a lot of MLM upline don't understand. They came in the same way and they're like, "Hey, give me your story, give me your two minute blast." Just chase until the buyer dies, literally you're gonna kill them. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: Right? Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: And so I think ... Today's day and age, if you're able to ask proper questions, you're able to minimize that shortfall and you're gonna be able to lead this person down and you're gonna be able to help that person. And in the meantime, you will build rapport faster if you stay on target with these types of questions, rather than trying to dictate, "Hey, your life is so much better." Find out about them, ask them the questions. It's gonna build so much intrigue in this person that you're asking these questions, you're giving these little mini statements, what I call little micro commitments or a mini statement of where your life is, or what you're loving about your current company and your current situation is you're growing than it will ever do ... You're just dumping a whole bunch of information on [inaudible 00:13:15]. I know a lot of people talk about that, but [crosstalk 00:13:17]- Steve Larsen: You're saying [crosstalk 00:13:18]. So you're saying that it actually works to pay off and actually like care about people? John Ferguson: Right, right. Steve Larsen: Just real quick. I wanna just run through this real fast. So you're saying ... First of all, I love that you defined the difference kind of between a pointed question versus a leading question. You're not asking leading questions, your asking pointing questions. Right? Where it- John Ferguson: Correct. Steve Larsen: Where you're going out and you're saying ... you're saying, "Hey ..." I'm writing notes like crazy, just so you know. You start by saying, "Hey, what do you do?" And big broad question, trying to figure out where they fit like, "Whoa. You must love it." And like that is huge. Before you go on that, you're talking about yourself. You're like, "You must love it." And you say ... From there, there's gonna be a split, "Yes, I do." or, "No, I don't." And then from there, you kinda know where to take the conversation. Right? They're the ones basically ... You're just kind of guiding it. John Ferguson: Correct. Steve Larsen: The whole way. That's amazing. Okay. John Ferguson: [crosstalk 00:14:12]. Yep. You're guiding the process and what you're doing is, you're leading them down this path to essentially want to buy from you. They want to enroll with you. Well they wanna continue to engage. Steve Larsen: So where do you- John Ferguson: The whole [crosstalk 00:14:24] psychology, right? Steve Larsen: Sure. John Ferguson: I mean everyone wants to be heard. Right? And so if someone's gonna listen, they're gonna keep telling you, but you have to guide that not down a road, "Hey, let's become best friends. We're gonna talk about what we ate last night and oh, I love pasta too." "No, I like fried ferret." Whatever it is, don't go there. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: Like try to keep a pointed ... And so, it's less about us now and it's more about what their needs and desires are and if they feel that they're getting their needs met and their desires met by talking to you, that's gonna draw them in to wanting to move forward, even if it's a simple invitation. "Hey, you know what? Sounds like you'd do really well with what we're doing. I'm pretty sure that you'll love it. Let me give you my business card. Let me get your information and I'll send you an email on XYZ. I want you to watch this five minute video. I want you to watch this 10 minute video and real quick it's gonna ask you a few more questions, it's to introduce you to my business and some of my partners. I think you're really gonna love it just based on our conversation." It kind of opens that door for you to do that initial interview, that initial quick introduction to your business, even if you're out live at an event. You're able to hand your card off, you're able to show them your website and it's less abrasive and they're gonna have more intrigue to go, "Wow. That was a really cool conversation. I don't usually have those conversations, so I'm gonna watch this website 'cause what those guys have might be something I've actually been looking for for a long time." Steve Larsen: So from there- John Ferguson: Whether they're looking or not, they're gonna wanna go look. Steve Larsen: Okay. No, awesome. So from there, they're going ... I'm just ... I'm trying to outline it. So you go in broad, then you go in pointed questions and then you kinda go through ... you called it kinda the needs, desire sections. Right? Where ... And how long do you usually stay in that? I'm sure it's per conversation, but I mean how do you know when you're able to go out and finally drop the line of, "Hey. Let me get you my business card. Let me email you. Let me send you this five minute video." When do you know you've gotten to that spot that you can actually say that kinda stuff? John Ferguson: So typically what happens is, is once I've asked enough of these questions, even before I get very direct, I might ask a direct question of an individual. I might say something like, "At the end of the day, you've influenced your family and you've won more freedom by working with us. Why did you do it?" And then they're gonna tell me and/or ... What's gonna happen even is, is we've been asking them questions so long that they're gonna get like I said, intrigued about us. They're gonna ask us what. They're gonna say, "So I mean it sounds like you've got something awesome going on. What is it you do?" Steve Larsen: Yeah. What are you doing? John Ferguson: Like who are you? Right? Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: That's gonna open the door for you now to share that invitation. Right? You've understood their needs. Now this would ... We're talking face to face right now. Now if I was gonna be over the phone right, some of my advertising was through ... Like don't tell anybody, but I've done some of this ninja stuff on Craigslist. I've just posted a little ad that says, "Hey look, are you interested in XYZ? If you are, call me or if you are, respond." And this stuff works there too and obviously building funnels and posting those paid advertising through like Facebook and Instagram. All that works really, really well, but when it comes down to it, let's say you've got people in Nebraska and you live in California. What are you gonna do? Like how are you gonna meet that person face to face? They've just introduced themselves to you. They're gonna go through your phone, they're gonna [inaudible 00:17:40] your thing, but I like high ticket sales, and so I wanna help this person get the maximum of what's gonna help them. And so the lowest product price point that we typically sell is about $2,000.00 and we do a little bit over the phone, and so if I'm ... I can run this line of questioning over the phone, I'll have a notepad right next to me writing the answers down as I go. So I can go okay, wow that's a need. Okay, wow that's a desire. Right? And so now as I'm asking questions, I can define out what my next questions are. When you get ... We're really good at these types of questionings. These types of questions, it will just come natural to you and it's just following a progressive line, broad based, pointed, direct, broad based, pointed, direct. And sometimes you'll ask a direct question and they won't wanna answer it. They may feel a little standoffish if you haven't done a good job of building that initial rapport, bringing them down the ladder. Right? No one wants to go from the 15th step on the ladder and jump down to step number one, like it hurts. Okay. It's kinda like dropping 150 feet with your buddy, filming it on Facebook and screaming until you fall, like I saw that video of you. That's nuts, right? Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: But no one wants to feel that way without the bungee cord. Okay. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: So we have to take them down that ladder and sometimes you may have to come back up and ask a little more pointed questions to get to where you want, and then come back down to the direct question to the root of the issue of what their true desire is. So now, they're literally asking you Steven, this may sound a little bit more complicated than it really is. It's literally one or two broad based questions, one or two pointed questions and one very direct question. You'll have five questions and you have literally opened the door and they're literally asking, "So what is it you do? How long have you been doing it? Is there any information that I can have that I can talk to you about?" And if I'm doing this over the telephone, it's about an eight minute conversation. Right? I like to keep it about five to twelve minutes. Anyone out there who I typically find ... especially individuals putting this in their practice, as when we're teaching telemarketing teams or when I'm teaching a network marketing business ... Like I was just in New Jersey teaching 200 network marketers in the room in like a six hour session how to do this and the challenge was is asking less, but doing it in the right way- Steve Larsen: Interesting. John Ferguson: Because I think we have this desire to talk and what I found was a lot of people spent more time talking and trying to talk someone into liking your thing because you like it. No one cares why you like it, they just don't. What they care is why they might like it or why ... what will help them. Spend less time dictating and more time recording right, taking down the right information and ultimately they're gonna ask. They're literally [inaudible 00:20:36], "What's my next step? How do I move forward with you?" I've never had ... I've had people say that they've never had conversations like this ever in the network marketing world. Right? I'm sure a lot of your listeners right now are going yeah, I mean that ... People would just beat me up and just ask me, "Hey, come to my thing. Come to my thing. Oh, you're gonna love it. You're gonna get this. You're gonna get that out of it.", and it was just noise. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: Well just turn off the noise, ask them more questions and let them speak for a minute and guide them down this path to where they're literally begging to buy from you. Steve Larsen: What's the golden that someone can ask you? Obviously besides, "Hey, where do I put my credit card?" But like what's the question that when you know that you have them, you know what I mean? When you know that this person's progressing and maybe that's probably the wrong way to say that, but when you know that they're following the process to the T and they're eating out of your hand, you know what I mean? When do you know? John Ferguson: It's a number of things. It's a number of questions. Steve Larsen: Sure. John Ferguson: Typically, in our industry because it's sales, some of your listeners may have heard the title buyer's questions. Steve Larsen: Sure. John Ferguson: Really it's ... I like to call them intrigue questions, but really what it is, is they're asking you, "Okay. What's the next step?" That's it, like because it doesn't feel abrasive like a sales pitch or a sales opportunity, it's more of like an invitation. They're typically asking, "So how do I move forward with you? Like what's my next step with you? Do you have a meeting that I can attend? Do you have something that I can acquire now?" Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: And so they're literally asking you at that point for the sale. Does that make sense? Steve Larsen: Yeah, yeah. They're asking buyer questions, yes. That's how I think ... Absolutely. Okay. Intrigue questions. John Ferguson: Yeah. Steve Larsen: And so what would be your follow up at that point? Obviously you said, "Hey, go to the five minute video." or "I'm gonna email you." What's the preferred thing that you do with them after that? John Ferguson: So depending on what I'm doing or depending on the organization that I'm working with, some of them have like an initial introductory video or an initial introductory meeting where they're gonna have to come sit down with you and meet with some of the other team members that you have, or they're gonna come out or they're just gonna stay at home. They're gonna watch a webinar and they're gonna go through this introduction to the company. So typically, I'm delivering them to some type of information that continues to build intrigue, but also delivers some information and it's what we call kind of a either a business orientation, a business briefing and that is literally our first few steps in this entire process. Okay, because at this point now, it's a presentation. Now we're gonna be delivering some of the information to continue that intrigue, but to deliver on what we promised, and then at that point, we're gonna take them to our closing process and it's literally a three step process. It's introduction, invite, presentation and then close. I mean that's as simple as it gets. Steve Larsen: Wow. Wow. Now this is something that sounds like you're doing this like face to face and over the phone but not just for- John Ferguson: Right. Steve Larsen: Not just for ... It's fascinating because most ... especially phone scripts, right? Most phone scripts that I've ever used especially in the internet marketing space, kind of the other market that I'm in, right. I ... Typically, these kinds of phone conversations is something that we would do for more warm audiences and people who knew who we were and knew what were doing, and we were just there to kinda close them and guide them in the sale. But you're able to do this kinda thing to ... I don't wanna say cold, but people who you've honestly may have never met before. John Ferguson: Yep. That's exactly what I do. Steve Larsen: That's amazing. John Ferguson: I don't like the whole ... I got my mom and dad and my cousins and sisters in my first couple of network marketing business. Steve Larsen: Sure. Who didn't? John Ferguson: And it [inaudible 00:24:21]. So I think all of the listeners have done that. Steve Larsen: Yeah, yeah. Sure. John Ferguson: They've tried that. So there's only so many family members you got right, that can buy from you and join your thing. So you have to go out there and build new relationships and the only way to do that is to either go out there and literally cold market, which can be a little more [inaudible 00:24:42], warm them up first. Right? Why not send them to an initial video? Why not get them to opt in to an advertising piece? Why not have them call you first? Get them knocking your door down first and then take them through these little bit of questions, take them through an introductory video or a webinar and then invite them to participate with you. Steve Larsen: That's fascinating. This ... I mean is an incredible expertise. I appreciate you just kind of outlining that. I'm sure top level ... For those of you guys who don't know, I've been talking to you guys a lot about the program, Secret MLM Hacks that I've created and my team's in and we're selling also to any of those ... of you guys who want, we ... John is so good at this, that I pretty much begged him to come and teach a huge segment of this insider course as well. So those of you guys who are like, "Oh, man this stuff's so cool. How do I get more of that?" Well you a lot more of John Ferguson inside of Secret MLM Hacks as well and this expertise is incredible, John. How did you develop this? I mean this is not like a normal ... You know what I mean? I don't know many people who are doing what you're doing like this. In fact, you're probably one of the first ever in this kind of way. How did you get there? John Ferguson: It was out of bare necessity. So let me give you some back story. My ... Just real quick some of my back story. Steve Larsen: Sure. Yeah, please. John Ferguson: I grew up in a home in Southern California. My father was laid off seven times before I was 17. Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: For most of my life growing up, I lived with my grandparents and my mom, my dad, my two brothers and I, my grandma, my grandpa and my great-grandmother lived in like a 1,500 square foot home in Whittier, California. It had three bedrooms, one and a half bath, and there's a need for four bedrooms there and so I learned a lot. One, I learned family, the importance of family and how hard it takes to work to keep a family together, especially when you're struggling financially, and I also saw that working a job wasn't for me, like I saw the struggle. My father worked three jobs at one time. They would go around cleaning churches when I grow up, and I was a little squirt running around at five, six, seven years old, taking the chalk erasers, smacking the board with them as my dad was finishing up wiping them down in the church and he'd have to go clean them up again. Let me ... Later down the line, I realized why he was a little upset with me but couldn't really freak out 'cause we're in a church. But I saw that level and so I decided to go to college and like most people, they're like okay, go to school, get good grades, go to college, get a good career. So I took that path and I played basketball in college and I went up and dunked on somebody in a preseason game and I ruptured two discs in my back- Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: Blew out my knee and my ankle- Steve Larsen: Oh, my gosh. John Ferguson: And there was no way I was gonna be able to get in NBA and I'm sure some of your listeners were going, "NBA, yeah." I mean I was not gonna be able to play in the National Basketball Association because I had blown out my body. To this day I can't feel my left leg, like part of my left leg is like numb. My foot is a little bit numb because of that injury. Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: And so going to college, I mean why go to ... I thought at the time and no disrespect to anyone that has a diploma. That's awesome. You guys did it, you won it. Fantastic. There are careers that definitely need the execution, but for me at the time, I was like well if I'm not gonna get in the NBA. Right? That's the whole reason you're going to college, is to get in NBA ... Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: I quit. I was like I'm out and so I got into the career world. I started working at a company called Hollywood Video. You know that dinosaur video place you used to go rent videos from? Steve Larsen: Yeah, yeah. John Ferguson: I wore the red cummerbund, I had the red bow tie. I was waving at people and within a short period time, it was about four and half, five years, I had risen from the ranks from just customer service representative up to a district manager, and I had 14 stores. I was running multimillion dollars for this company and I remember coming home from one vacation, we got five weeks paid vacation. I came home from one vacation and my beeper, like for those of you guys who don't know what that is, it's kinda like a little box that buzzes and beeps on your hip. Okay? So half the size of cell phones today and like three times its width, but I was coming down the mountain, I was up fishing and camping with my family and it goes off, like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. And I'm looking down at it and I'm going what is going on with this thing? It was like 911*. 91111*. 91111 and I'm going what is ... Like something ... Someone had to have died in one of my stores. I'm freaking out. I call my manager, the VP over there area and he's like, "Where are you? You need to come in right now." And I'm like, "I just got off of vacation." And if you don't know the type of organization I was working with, it was like to go on vacation, you had to like ... I filled out the form and then the form had to be filled out by my boss and then the boss had to send up to his boss and then corporate had to sign it. They had to send it back to you and you got like five pages of documentation showing you're gone. Right? Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: So I get back ... Literally I got written up for being gone because one of my store managers got sick, the assistant manager couldn't come in to cover their shift in one of my stores. It's like an hour away from even where I live and my manager had to go in and cover the store for like 20 minutes. What I found was- Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: It's that I was climbing the wrong ladder on the wrong building and ... I mean at the time, I was the number one in revenue, I was the number one district manager in the company for holiday contests and sales. My teams were like at the top of my level and I had a lot of loyalty and at that one moment, I lost my 2.5% raise. Now think about that. Steve Larsen: Two and a half percent. John Ferguson: [crosstalk 00:30:28] I was freaking out about not earning another 1,600 bucks, 1,700 bucks a year. Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: Because I was only making about 80 grand a year and 2.5%, 2% of that is 16, 1,700 bucks. Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: And like to someone like that ... Like I look back on that like how did I survive? Right? Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: But that's how it is. Like that was a good salary then and for me, I had to find another way. And so getting into this situation, I got into my very first real estate property, started becoming ... I became a real estate investor and I ... For two years, I spent a ton of money, like over 200 grand in trends and boot camps and seminars and coaches and I'd finally be able to ... I was able to quit my job and I got involved in a network marketing organization and I've never been involved with one before in my life and they said, "Okay. Go get everybody." So I go ... I get everybody I can get like ... I got like 30 people in this one meeting. I had 25, 30 people. The guy in the front of the room is rocking. Like he's up there, he's like telling a story and I'm watching all my guests and I'm in the very back ... The room is filled with like maybe 200 people and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna make like a hundred grand tonight." Like it's- Steve Larsen: Look at all this. Yeah, yeah. John Ferguson: [inaudible 00:31:48]. Right? Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: And I'm like, "[inaudible 00:31:50]. This is so great" and I'm looking around at everybody around me. I go up to my mentor, I tap him on the shoulder. I'm like, "Dude, check it out. I'm gonna get certified in one meeting. I'm gonna me a hundred grand, you're gonna make like 50 grand. This is sweet!" Like I'm so excited and I'm telling everybody and all the people that I looked up to in my [inaudible 00:32:10] network marketing business and have been involved with me a couple months and I'm like, "I've been working my guts out trying to get people in this room and this is gonna be so awesome. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: And at the very end of the night, most network marketing companies do this is, is, "Okay. Are you a one? Are you a two or a three? Are you an A, a B or a C?" Right? And all my people are like two or a like one, meaning that they're in! They wanna join and they got some questions, but they wanna join! I'm like oh, my gosh. How am I gonna handle all this business all at once? And so I grab like two laptops and I go run into the front of the room, I grab all my guests, "So you guys follow me." Right? Like the pied piper, you guys are all just getting. "Let's go!" And so I get to the back of the room and my brain is exploding, my heart's pumping out of my chest. I'm sweating profusely because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. This is gonna be so cool." How do I not ... Like how do I hide my excitement? Right? [crosstalk 00:33:02]- Steve Larsen: Yeah, to keep it cool. John Ferguson: [inaudible 00:33:03]. It's like this rush, right? It's like drinking five Red Bulls at once. Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: And so [inaudible 00:33:09], I'm going, "Okay everybody. For those of you who are the number ones, raise your hands again. Okay. Fantastic. I've got two laptops over here. I've got them open and ready to go. Just get your credit cards out. I [inaudible 00:33:20] to sign up [inaudible 00:33:21] here. [inaudible 00:33:23] got questions [inaudible 00:33:24]. Let's go!" Yeah. That's about how it was man. Silence. Nobody moved, like not one bit. Steve Larsen: Wow. John Ferguson: And you know I had the, "Oh, man. That's great stuff, John. I'm just not ready to move forward." "Oh, I didn't bring my checkbook." I got all the excuses and like when you go from such a high, like you're gonna win, right? Then you literally drop and then you melt and you're like about to be in tears, your face turns red and you're like, "Oh, my gosh. How did misjudge all this?" Steve Larsen: Right. Right. John Ferguson: That was the moment I knew that I screwed up and I needed to do it better and I had learned right then and there, that I didn't know enough about the people that I had invited to this meeting. That I was told what I considered a lie, was that just invite people, throw a diaper against the wall, some of them will stick, others are gonna slide down, and I realized it doesn't matter what you're throwing against the wall. It's just gonna leave a mess and so I knew right then and there, I needed a better system. I needed a better way to engage the right people and not just people. I knew that I never wanted to chase other people. I never wanted to feel that way again, where I had this pit in my stomach, not because of the success that I was gonna have, but because what did I just do and how did I look, and I just told everybody this was gonna be fantastic and I was exhausted- Steve Larsen: Yeah. John Ferguson: Because I worked so hard, not one person purchased man, not one and that was the day. And I went in I started ... we're finding the systems and we're finding how I ask people questions and I read every sales book I possibly could and I wasn't finding the information in there. And it was difficult and I started with Rich Dad organization, I started working with some of these telemarketing teams and learning what they did on the phone and how they sold coaching and mentoring and packages and I literally just went into the trenches for a couple of years. And I took what I learned from speaking and training and teaching in the network marketing industry in front of these big rooms and what was going on behind the scenes with a lot of these organizations selling trainings and services and products on how they were enrolling people at these higher levels. And it just ... It just ... They had a baby dude. They had a baby. I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna take that, it was like a mad scientist, Frankenstein, let's just put it all together and over the years, it came out fantastic and to like ride it off of the wings. And I don't really like to like talk about myself a lot, but in this instance I need to and I don't like the phrase ... I hate this phrase and maybe you do too, I don't say this to impress you, but to impress upon you. I hate that phrase, like just tell us the truth, you're trying to impress us. Right? And so I hate that phrase- Steve Larsen: Brag about yourself John. Let us know, let us hear it. John Ferguson: Yeah, man. So it's time to impress you. So I'm telling this so you are impressed by some dude who grew up in Southern California in a box with his entire family, looking like Charlie from the Chocolate Factory, who was able to make it out of that world just by sheer bull dogged determination. I wasn't smart, I just gathered all the stuff, mixed it up in the blender and poof. I joined a network marketing company a few years back and I said, "Look, I have test this method and I'm only gonna be using my method. I'm not gonna be using anything else. I'm gonna con ... I'm gonna throw out some bait. I'm gonna throw out some advertising and get people calling me, and I'm gonna see if these people that I do not know, I can put in some information with ... through a webinar, through testimonials, through Craigslist ads, and let's see if I can build a rapport well enough just with this system, but it works." I started that in the network marketing company, I think it was about November, when I actually started selling and advertising, and by the end of the year, I had taken their sales contest. I was number one that year. I was inducted into their ... Like a lot of you guys know like the Diamond Club or the President's Advisory Council of [crosstalk 00:37:33]- Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: Literally inducted into that crew and people were upset. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: Because there were people who worked all year long in the network marketing business and they hadn't closed enough sales to make it. Like I remember I had beaten one of the ladies who did a phenomenal job. She's a wonderful person, very good dear friend of mine now, who I've had the opportunity to train and teach her teams this as well. They had done great but I only won by like six grand. Like my revenue was ... It was that close. But with only having a couple of months to finish off this ... the contest by the end of the year to go to their national convention and at that point, I knew I had something different that you could use on the phone, you use in person. That an influencer can use to sell coaching, that you can sell products, you could sell water, you could help people [inaudible 00:38:23] literally a [inaudible 00:38:25] individuals [inaudible 00:38:26], 'cause we know that people don't like what they need. Right? We know that. Like if you just give them the needs like, "[inaudible 00:38:32], like I know I need to take vitamins but I'm not choking the horse pill down." Right? So how do I give them the desire? How do I fulfill the desire and the need at the same time and then wrap it all up into a bow to where they're begging me to buy? And that's what this is man and that's what we've developed and it has shrunk the time it takes for me to work with people. I work about 20 hours a week now in what I do and the rest of the time I spend with my family man and I like to invest in real estate still. I like to buy properties, I really like helping people, I like traveling and speaking and running masterminds, and that's it dude. I mean that's kind of the evolution of this process. That's how I came up with it and I can't a 100% credit because I learned a lot in these different organizations from different people, that had little pieces. Right? I think that's we do as entrepreneurs- Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: As influencers. We've been influenced ourselves to actually go out and influence and so for me to take credit, I'm not a self made millionaire. Okay. It's a team thing, whether it's a book that you've read from someone who has passed away, passed along that knowledge in that book or that audio course, or the mentors that you've continued to have and the friendships and the relationships. Like I've learned a ton from you Steven, like a lot of what you've taught has helped even this process succeed in greater- Steve Larsen: Oh, cool. John Ferguson: And the other businesses that we own. And so like I think that the more people understand how connected that we are, the whole lot easier that everything becomes and it's less about closing and it's more about connecting and getting people to desire what they need, than shoving it down their throat. So hopefully the answer's there. I went on a discourse man. Steve Larsen: I love the discourse, but it's so true like that whole phrase, we all rise together. To me, for some reason that always seemed a little bit cheesy but the longer I've been doing this, the more I've realized the exact same. It's like look, I did not get anywhere on my own, like it's all ... We all do it together, we have to. If you try to do it on your own, you actually will drown. Anyway, I ... I'm so thankful for what you taught here and it just ... I think the listeners are gonna love it. Guys if you have, please reach out to John and say thank you. You can learn more from him as well. Where can people find you, John? John Ferguson: The easiest thing right now to do is I like to connect with people. I like to see who you are, what you're doing in the industry and one of the greatest tools right now out there Facebook. I'm on Facebook, you gotta go by my real name John Albert Ferguson. I know, it's not just John Ferguson. I got the big Al from my dad. So John Albert Ferguson on Facebook and it's real simple. I've got my personal profile and I got my page, and my page ... You can hit me up in the messenger and if you need some help, I'd love to spend about like a 15 minute consultation with you for free. No charge, just to kinda see where you're at, what you're doing, maybe we can unlock a few things and help to implement it and if it's something we wanna work together, you'll be on that, fantastic, and we'll find a way and we do coaching. I do mastermind, such like that, but really I wanna provide value first, and what they're gonna see too Steven, is I love real estate investing. And so you'll see a lot about my real estate and things I do and as well as my coaching and training and speaking within the sales and network marketing arena. So I think that's probably the easiest thing to do man, is just so they can get a picture of who I am, like my family and what I do. I think that one's the biggest thing, is in this industry I think a lot of people don't sell, they don't close. They can't because they feel they have accomplish some level of success before they can introduce their thing. Right? Well let's say I've got this bottle of water here that's gonna change people's lives. Right? Well maybe it's you're first week and your life hasn't changed yet. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You can poster the water, you can your upline, you poster just the experience you've currently had in the last 24 hours of being involved in an amazing community of people and enough is enough. Don't have to be right now and I like the whole act as if thing, but why not just be you? Like be yourself. Steve Larsen: Right. John Ferguson: Like are you going to allow somebody into your house with dirty, muddy shoes? Probably not. You're gonna ask them to take it off. Are you gonna let just anybody join your thing? Probably not and you shouldn't. Like if you're like, "No. Yeah. I will. I haven't made a sale so I gotta close somebody. Like if anyone wants to come in and give me money, they're in." No. That could be way more headache. Steve Larsen: Yeah. No way. John Ferguson: That would be ... It's not worth the headache. You wanna retain the right people so they can build the right community with you and you'll have a whole lot more fun. Like the money doesn't matter. You'll make more money being happy and enrolling the right people than you will trying to get other people just to buy- Steve Larsen: Amen. Amen. We need that on t-shirt and a mug. That was good. Yeah, anyway. I appreciate that. Sorry to cut you off there. John Ferguson: [crosstalk 00:43:32]. Steve Larsen: You were on a roll man. I'm loving the dialogue. This is awesome. John Ferguson: Yeah. No, we're good. Steve Larsen: Hey ... Thank you so much. Hey guys, go check out John though. Go to ... Go to his Facebook page. He's doing ... What ... You said working 20 hours a week, which is awesome. Obviously walking the walk, talking the talk. You know what you're doing and for me it's been fun to look around and go find out like, "Oh man, who were the ones in MLM who are really killing it? Who are ..." and not ... Meaning they've actually figured out a system and you clearly just over and over and over pop up as like one of the most expert individuals in this space and this area and I'm just so thankful to have you on the show. Please go check out John though at Facebook, connect with him. You can do a 15 minute consultation with him. For those of you guys who are jumping in Secret MLM Hacks, you also got an awesome training module from him as well. John, thanks so much for being on the show today. John Ferguson: Yeah. Fantastic. It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it and love what you're doing, Steven. You got some amazing things happening for your listeners and Secret MLM Hacks rocks. I mean if your listeners haven't joined that yet, you need to because that is what we're talking about today, is really engaging the proper people with the proper solutions that are geared towards their desires and their needs and you're laying it out there in plain speech that anybody can implement. So yeah, I'm just glad to have been a part ... a smart part of this and helping your audience succeed, man. Steve Larsen: Oh, man. Thanks so much. Appreciate it and thanks everyone for listening. Hey, thanks for listening. Please remember to rate and subscribe, whether you just want more leads or automated MLM funnels, or if you just wanna learn to get paid more for your product, head over to secretmlmhacks.com to join the next free training today.

There ONE skill that protects me against any mishap as I launch funnels... Hey, what's going on everyone. This Steve Larsen, and you're listening to Sales Funnel radio. Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. And we're about to cross 100,000 downloads. I am going to remake an intro. I have loved the intro that I have, but it's time to switch it up. After 100 episodes, what, it's like 120 episodes now almost and almost 100,000 downloads. To celebrate that I'll probably toss it out there. Hey, so I was on stage, I was teaching the Fat Event. It's been super busy, I'm sorry I've not done a podcast here in a little while. Funny story though. I was on stage and I get excited, which I know is hard to imagine. I get excited in general. But I was on stage and it was the second day. It was lie one o'clock. One o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon. And the second day's a long day. For me it's 12 hours on stage at least. Anywhere from 12 to 15 hours, and then Russell will come on as well. And I was just wrecked... Anyway, it's a lot of fun though. I mean I absolutely love it. I enjoy it like crazy. So I was on stage, and I was jumping around. I was getting ... I can't remember what I was teaching about. But I ... The pants that I was wearing. You guys will like this story. The pants that I was wearing were a little bit more like loose fitting. And I was like ... We were jumping around, and I was teaching ... I can't remember what I was teaching. I think I was teaching about like storytelling or something like that. I think I was talking about energy. Why it matters. Anyway, I can't totally remember it was. But basically I jumped and no one else knew, but when I came back down I totally ripped by pants. Like right up my butt cheek. And nobody knew. And so ... And I didn't know how bad the rip was. And so I'm like jumping around on ... "Hey." Like I have no idea what's going on. I just know it's getting drafty back there. And I was like, "What the heck?" Like I've never had this happen in my life ever. And so I ... So there was a whiteboard there, and I write whiteboards a lot. I draw on them a lot to illustrate certain principles and stuff. But I wouldn't turn my back and actually write on the whiteboard in front of me because I didn't know how bad it was. I didn't know how bad it was. So eventually after while I was leaning around the white board writing down. Anyway. And I ... In my mind I was laughing. I was like, "I'm literally going to podcast about this." So this is me doing that. And I decided I would called a break. I was like, "All right. I'm going to call break." And uncouthly remove myself from the room. And so I remove myself from the room and I grab my friend Miles who's also ... He's into ClickFunnels. Employee there. He works at ClickFunnels. He's the DJ basically. Runs all the sound and lights and all that stuff for me while I'm doing those things. And I was like, "Hey man. I need you to be a bro and look at my butt." And he's like, "What?" I was like, "I freaking ripped my pants dude." And so we're hiding in a corner and he looks at my butt and he's like, "Dude, as long as you stand perfectly straight, your shirttail covers it. It's not even a big deal." And I was like, "Okay." So for the next five hours I had the most perfect, unnaturally amazing posture that I have ever had in my entire life. And anyway, no one was the wiser until the next day I told literally everyone that story while I was up there. And I know that some people might think that that's weird, but it's to illustrate a point. Okay. It's to illustrate a point. Whatever weird thing's going in your life, whatever it is that's going on, whatever it is that's happening to you, that develops your attractive character when you start to share those things. Right? I know now not to wear slightly baggy jeans while I'm on stage jumping around. Okay? Who would've known? I'll make that secret 12 in like some stage presenting workshop coming up, or I don't know. Just kidding. But anyway. But it's true though, okay. It's all about ... You guys got to understand this, okay? When it comes to your attractive character, and new opportunities. New opportunities you compete by being brand new. Right? All right. Your attractive character though is also something to be treated not as brand new, but as different. Let me explain what I mean, okay? In creating new opportunities your business should be a new opportunity. Your business is a new opportunity. The product itself is a new opportunity to somebody else. And if you've never ... If this is a brand new concept to you, you should probably go back a few episodes and start listening right? Right. It's a pretty standard idea now to find something that's a brand new product. Brand new idea. Your attractive character though also needs to make some kind of evolvement. Okay? When I was in college I wrote this ebook. It was before I ever read dotcom secrets. I didn't even know who Russell was I think. Wait, I'm thinking timeline. Yeah. I had no idea ... I didn't even know he existed. Okay. And I wrote this ebook, and what I did is I talked about this concept called product big bang theory where most of the time people go out and they say, "Hey come up with something that's totally brand new. Something that's completely out of the box." I call it product big bang theory. Meaning it just popped out of nowhere. "Ah this is something brand new. It's not stemming from anything else." And product big bang theory is an issue, okay? It's scary. It's freaky. It's risky. It's one of the most risky product strategies you could ever have. Instead I called it product evolution. I never actually released that ebook. I probably should. It was good... And so when I saw Russell's book about dotcom secrets, about first funnel hacking what's going on I was like, "Oh. Product evolution." Right? I'm taking what already exists and I'm making it new but I'm stemming it from something that already exists. Right? It's the same thing with like ... So when it comes to products that works really really well. When it comes to your attractive character thought, you can't really stem from another individual. I can't really say ... Why? Why why? Because you need to ... You can't compete on something like a strength. If you compete on things like strength, it's like the scariest thing to do also as far as your attractive character goes. So just follow me here real quick. Okay? I know this is ... I'm getting kind of ... Just follow me for a second. Okay? When it comes to products, you're trying to create a new opportunity but stemming from something that's already successful. Right? It's a combination between funnel hacking and creating a new opportunity. It's a combination between those two. You don't just funnel hack. And you just don't create a new opportunity. You combine them. You do them in tandem. Right? That's like one of the most secure easy ways to actually create a new opportunity for yourself. I'm sorry, a successful business. A successful product. One that is slightly disruptive in nature and creates a mass movement. That's one of the easiest ways. First funnel hack, second create a new opportunity from what you funnel hacked. Not something that totally never existed before. That's scary. Okay? When it comes to your attractive character though, there is always somebody who will be faster, better, stronger, better looking, whatever it is. Right? So you don't compete on those things. Instead, you compete on your differences. There's only one you. There's only one me, and it's very easy for me to stand out when I stopped competing on strengths. Okay. When it came to my attractive character I'm talking about. Just my own ... The way I deliver. The way I talk. My stories. My personas. What I put out into the world. Out into the marketplace as far as my character goes, my brand. There will always be someone faster, better, stronger, better-looking, er, er, er, er. Right? ER, ER, ER, ER. All over the place, right? That's a scary place to go. It's a scary place to be. Right? So I don't compete on strengths. And I don't compete on weaknesses. I'm not trying to, "Well, no I'm worse than you. I'm worse ..." I'm not trying to compete on weaknesses. But what I am trying to do, is I'm trying to compete on my differences. Okay? It's a different way to think about it. It's a ... I don't know if it's a ... Hopefully it's making sense what I'm talking about, okay? Because I talked about this a lot at this last Fat event that your character development is ... It's paramount to how your business runs. Okay? The way your product sells, the longevity of it, followup sales. Not just the initial, but repeat buys, a lot of that starts to depend now on your attractive character. You can get a lot of people to buy something from you once, but to get repeat buyers, there's got to be something attractive about your business, about yourself. Right? And I don't want my attractiveness to be based on strengths otherwise what ends up happening is I link myself and I compare myself to the ideals of pop culture. That's scary, okay? Because pop culture changes momently. Not even daily or hourly. It changes momently. Right? And so what I'm trying to say here with this whole attractive character thing ... I wasn't even planning on talking about this in this one. But I'm just kind of on a roll with it. Stop hiding what's different about you. If you don't normally wear a shirt and tie, do not put one on to go put a picture of yourself on the internet. Right? I made that mistake. If you go to Sales Funnel Broker right now ... So I'm going to go change Sales Funnel Broker like crazy. Right? I love ... To be honest, I like wearing suits and ties. Okay. But it's not the norm. Man, I wear that maybe once very few months. Right? I'll wear a tie for church on Sundays. Right? But not a suit. And I'm wearing a full out suit in that picture. I don't like that. I should not have done that. That was not ... That's what I'm trying to tell you guys. Whatever it is that you ... That's why I tell you guys random stuff like, there is literally ... You guys know I'm really into air soft. It's like paintball. Right? There's a sniper rifle right next to me that I just barely finished rebuilding. Tons of fun. I love that stuff. Right? Why do I talk about random things like that? "Steven what does that have to do with internet marketing?" It has everything to do with internet marketing. Has everything to do with your character. Has everything to do with why people will be attracted to you... Why would I tell a story about me ripping my pants down my butt cheek? Right? It's not just to tell the story. Is it funny? Yes it is very funny. And I was laughing about it ... I wasn't going to say anything. Well I didn't know how bad it was, but I told them all later. Be willing to expose yourself. Okay? Be willing to expose your character flaws. Talk about the things that you're not good at. It's not about ... I'm not trying to say, "Oh look at me. I'm terrible. I'm a Debbie downer." That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is don't be afraid when the story helps whatever you're doing. Do not be afraid to use a story even though it will appear to you to be a little bit to your detriment. It's not true. That's what I'm trying to say. It's not true. That's not how it actually works. Okay? It's so funny. You will become human. You will become human to your audience. You will become human to those who are following you when you are willing to let other sin. And for a lot of entrepreneurs what I've noticed is they ... One sale, that's not super hard. Right? You could build a webinar funnel, tripwire funnel, any funnel, but the followup sales. A lot of that starts to depend now your actual brand. I don't care about brand on the first sale at all. Okay. I really don't. I don't even take time to sit down and start thinking about brand. I build it as I go. It's not something that I ever had to sit down and start thinking about. The way I guess build my brand as I go, I tell stories. Right? When I'm the brand. When you are the brand. And even if you are not the brand. Your company still has stories. Your company still has an origin story even if you don't have a specific face for it... But anyway. That's all I was trying to tell you guys. Don't be afraid of telling stories about whatever it is that's going on about in your life. And so here's some things that's been going on right now. I think the next episode I'm going to do I'm going to walk through some webinar stats. You guys know that I've been on my own now for about five weeks, totally solo. Self-employed. Had a lot of fun with it. It's been a whirlwind. I want to walk through some stats. I'll probably do it in the next episode because it'll be a little bit long. But I want to walk through a few specific things with you. But as far as ... Like that's the business. But for my own personal stuff, how I've been handling it, it's pretty interesting. This is how it worked out. Week number one, like sickening anxiety. Like, "Holy crap. Why did I do this?" Do you know what I mean? And anything ... A lot of things amazing in my life. I've had those feelings as I'm pulling the trigger. Right? Like, "Oh my gosh. Am I sure I want to do this?" You know? And I get that. And I get that. A lot of people get. Week two for me, I was excited. I had the first big successes. Week three and four for me I was gone a lot because I was traveling and speaking like crazy in three different events. And week four was kind of a cleanup week fulfilling of things I sold in the previous weeks. And it's been kind of this whirlwind up and down, up and down, up and down. Right? Where I'm like, "Yeah this is working, oh my gosh." And then I go back, "And oh crap. So many things wrong with what I've launched so far." I'm going back and I'm fixing it. And I'm wrong, but you know things I want to optimize, and change and approve. And just know that like your personal development is as much a part of the business as the business itself. That's what I'm trying to say. That's the whole thing I'm trying to say with it. And being scared to share the stories of things you're going through at a personal level is not helping your business. It will actually hurt your business. It will help you tremendously. It will help get a following around you. So this is what I would do. I would sit down ... This is actually what I do. Behind me right now there is a whiteboard and it is chock full of storylines. Of things that are going on in my life that I can talk about okay? And the longer I've podcasted, the longer I've done anything in internet marketing, the longer I've done anything kind of thing in this game, the more I've realized how much this whole thing is about storytelling. All of it is storytelling. Every funnel is it's own story. The link between the funnels is a story. How I got into it, is a story. It's all storytelling. If there's one thing that you can get good at, it's storytelling. Okay? You can screw up 90% of your funnels, right? And be good at storytelling and they'll still work out just fine. Right? Why? I'm not making that up, okay? I've seen a lot of people with their funnels look like straight up trash, but that's fine. They sell like hotcakes because they're good at the story part. And that's the reality of it. It's not so much what the funnel looks like, it's can you evoke emotion in those who are coming to your pages? Can you evoke over your business? Can you evoke emotion? If you're just another faceless corporation and literally your entire company is represented in a single logo, people are not in love with you. They might be in love with some outcomes that you get. But then if another person comes along and can beat you out, they'll start comparing you on features rather than emotions. Okay? That's super important what I just said. If you want to be compared by features, don't tell stories. Right? And what I'm saying is someone will always be better, faster, stronger, right? And you might be number one. That's great. That's awesome. But man you will fight tooth and nail to stay there which is great. And you know I'm fighting tooth and nail to try and be one of the best funnel builders in the world. And that's what I'm doing. And I have tons people asking me to build their funnels, and I cannot accept them. Way too much going on. But I ... That's the whole reason for it. Get good at telling stories and you'll have to sell hard ... You'll have to sell hard less. Get good at marketing, and it negates some of the need for hard sales. Get good at telling stories and you're not going to have to compete on features. Right? Because there's an emotion behind it. You know what's interesting is as I was launching this webinar, and I'll end it here. As I was launching this webinar, there were ... The very first week there was a whole bunch of issues with it. I mean there's tons of issues with it. I knew that. And my customers knew that. And they were willing to stick through some of the weird things. Some of the tech issues I hadn't figured out yet, or just hadn't put any attention to yet. They were willing to stick through that stuff because of the emotional connection they have felt with me through these podcasts. Right? I'm still on an MLM product and it's doing really well. And I've got a whole separate MLM show and because I have created that connection with those people, I hardly had to sell them very hard at all. Right? Hardly at all. And the weird stuff, that's the whole point of it. Guys, I just had my router, or modem get moved up into my actual office here where my computer is because my speed was slowing down. You know my router was ... They just barely left actually. My speed was slowing down because it was in the other room, another floor actually. And so it was cutting my upload and download speed in half, and I was frustrated. I'm not going to lie. And I was super frustrated. And when I called them, this lady just chummed it up and chatted with me and talked about where I was from, and the people that showed up on the doorstep, they came and they ... When they switched on the stuff they were awesome. And it wasn't just about the business. They took the time to treat me like a human being. Like a person. Like someone they would want to actually talk with. And it was noticeable to me. And I've actually sat and reflected on it here earlier this morning. And it was like, huh. You know what? I was actually totally fine, and I was more understanding because of the stories that they brought me through. Both my own, and their personal ones back and forth and that's what brought the connection. That's what brought the emotion. And I was willing to actually put up with some stuff that was a little bit weird, that frankly if I didn't want to put up with, maybe I wouldn't have needed to. Right? But I did put up with it, and now that everything's fixed it's fine. It's great. Everything's awesome. It's fast. The internet's great. But it's because of the stories, and because of the emotional connection. And if people are continually bombarding you with these features like, "Well this is faster. This is better. This is ... What about this? Can I get a cutdown here?" It's because they have no connection with you. Start telling your stories. Don't be afraid to talk about your pants ripping. Or don't be afraid to talk about the way you got into this. Just publish. This whole funnel game guys. All of it. That's what I'm trying to say. Anyway. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again. But you can screw up on your funnels in a major way, and be good at publishing and storytelling and you'll still do great. Okay? That's like being insanely ... That's what funnel is. It's a story. It's a progression. Sometimes people have great conversions on their pages, and I start to looking at them and it's like, "Well it's because you're just talking to me like I might be a potential sale. You're not actually talking to me like a human being. What's the story here? What's the hook?" Okay, that's another word for it. "What's the hook throughout the whole thing?" The hook of the headline, the hook of the sales copy. Anyway. Anyway, that's what I'm trying to say. You guys, I hope that makes sense. And what I would do as far as an actionable thing from this episode. I would sit down, and I've got an actual whiteboard right back there, and I just put down storylines of all the things that are going on in my life. And when I'm like, "Ah, you know I kind of want to put a new podcast out there. And there's this principle I want to describe. Cool, what story can I wrap it in?" Right? Get good at story telling. Get good at that piece. And what I would do is if you're like, "Hey Steven, I really want to start publishing," I would seriously challenge that and invite you to reconsider. But if you're like, "Hey I really got a ... I want to practice. I don't feel like I'm good enough at this yet," just start I mean ... Start telling other people's stories, okay? My dad is actually super good at this. So as a kid, he would just tell us random stories all the time. I didn't realize this until literally right now. And he would just tell us stories all the time. And he would make them up right off the top of his head, and they were completely imaginary. But he helped me get good at storytelling because of how he would do it all the time. And then it would be our turn to tell a story. And he came over ... He was over here like a week ago, and I noticed he was doing it with my kids. And I was like, "Huh." I don't think he realized what he was doing with me when he did that. But he lays down on the floor with them, and they're all just kind of looking at the ceiling and he just starts telling a story. And seriously it'll be about my two girls and a make believe kitty. And they go on an adventure. And there is conflict. And there's resolution. And it's literally, it's an epiphany rich story. I don't think he realized that that's what he was doing. But that is it. Okay. And then at the end, he'll ask my little girls to start telling a story. And they're four and two. Right? And they're practicing ... And of course the plot and the conflict, and the characters, and all that's not that amazing. Of course it's not. That's totally fine. It's just getting in the habit of it. Coming up with the imagination piece of it is huge. If I was to go back to school, which I seriously doubt I'll ever do that. But if I was to do that whole piece over again, I would focus on storytelling. I would focus on debate. I'd focus on design. Right? I'd probably get the marketing degree again because I did learn some great things from there. But that would be where the focus is. It's the ability to create. There's a book sitting right next to me, it's called A Whole New Mind. I recommend it to everybody. It's absolutely amazing. It's a book, it's by Daniel Pink. The subtext is Why Right Brain Thinkers Will Rule the Future. And the context of the entire book, and the premise of the book is that, look, especially in Western culture, are you farming right now by necessity? No. Are you sewing your own clothes? No. Are you building a dam to create electricity? No. Okay, the majority of the  basics for life are here. Right? You have to actually work to die of poverty in this country. Right? You do. In almost every country now there's welfare programs. It would be hard. You literally would have to do nothing. Okay? To try and make sure that you would die by starvation. Right? There's programs. It's hard to fail. Okay? Because of that it is such a huge crutch. Okay? Huge crutch for a lot of people's progress because if the need really isn't there, then I don't really need to figure out how to make this whole business work. Right? I don't really need to learn about story telling. But the whole premise of the book says, look, there's so much that is actually taken care of for us right? The left side of the brain, the very analytical side, factory work style. The future belongs to the right brained thinker. The storyteller. The creative. I'm inviting you to learn how to do that. To learn how to be a creative. Okay? And if you're like, "Ah I don't know how to be creative." Guess what? I didn't know how to do that stuff either. Okay? Pretty sure my dad stimulated a lot of that by just telling lots of stories. He'd do it at dinner about his childhood. He'd do it at bedtimes. And he'd do it all over the place. I had no idea. I had no idea until literally like just a little bit ago as I started watching the way he would interact with my girls. And I was like, "Wait a second. This has been like a patter throughout my life." And I wish ... Anyway, I'm just glad I recognized it early on. Tell stories. Even if they're complete make believe, tell stories. Get good at telling stories. Marketing is story telling. Okay? It's the transfer of belief by changing the story inside someone's head. That's all it is. Okay? And your ability to do that is like ... It takes the cake on 90% of the stuff that I teach in this podcast. 90% of the internet marketing world, okay? Just get good at telling a story. Anyway, I'm saying the same thing over and over again now. I just hope that makes sense. And I want you guys to go through and start doing that. And like I was saying before, actionable stuff, guys just start keeping a list of the things that are going on in your life. The little storylines right? And if you look at ... Inside expert secrets, right? What makes a story is a character, right? And a plot, and a conflict. I think those are the three. And just start coming up with that. You're the character. What's [inaudible 00:24:49] storyline? Where's the plot? Where's the conflict? Where's the resolution inside of it? And then boom. Just keep coming up with it over and over and over again. Script writing, I'm not amazing at script writing. But I'm pretty good at storytelling. And because of that I have gotten by pretty well with it. And I did a lot also when I was a ClickFunnels employee. And at least the basic foundation of a lot of those things that I would write would be okay. Especially by the time I left. And they would be just edited rather than scrapped completely because of the storytelling. It's the storyline. The funnel has a story. The page has a story. It all links together. They're all one big story. And it links into your origin story as to why people should get there. Anyway. Sorry to keep saying the word story. Story story story story. So go think through the things that are going on in your life. The things that are strength, the things that are weaknesses, right? But more importantly, your differences. All right? I just told you that I ripped my pants on stage, and it was awkward. And it's because I don't care. It's because it develops my attractive character. You literally have more a bond to me now emotionally than before I told you that. Okay? It takes me and makes me a more real person inside your head. Right? I know that's what's happening. Anyway, start doing that to your own people. That's all I got for you guys. Talk to you in next episode. Bye. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnel for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/freefunnels to download more prebuilt sales funnels today.

What's up, guys? Hey, first off, I'm so sorry that I have not podcasted here in a little while. It has been so busy, which honestly is my life in general. I should say instead that everything's normal. Everything's great because that's how it always is. I'm sure yours is the same. What I've been doing is we have a ton of people who've been coming in and joining Secret MLM Hacks. It's been a lot of fun actually. Last month we had 80 people come on in, which is great. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Glad to have you guys. Very, very fun. I've been going through and just deep diving on the training. It's been a whole lot of fun. I've really, really enjoyed it. It takes a lot of work to do the kind of training that I do with it though. I mean tons. A ton of work. I really, really enjoy it though. I mean it's fun. I wake up smiling. I'm excited to do the kinds of things that I get to do, and I feel very fortunate for that. Hey, there's a principle though that I wanted to just walk through and share with you guys though. It's a principle that I believe if you master it, which honestly isn't hard, there's really, really easy ways to do it, then there's more advanced ways to do it, but if you just master this one ... I don't know, this one talent, one skill, a lot of things get a lot easier for you both in the MLM space, in the business space, even in the personal space, relationship wise. It can be used in certain aspects. It can be applied in a lot of different areas. I really, really love it. Honestly for a while I was kind of, I don't know, I was wishing, was hoping that this was not actually like as real as it actually is. For a while I was hoping like no, no, no, there's no way. There's no way. It goes down to this. There's kind of a principle that sets up this principle. It kind of goes like this. Most people in life are not ambitious. They're not. If you're listening to this podcast right now, I can guarantee you that you're one of the ambitious people in life, right? When I was in classes, when I was in college and I was going around, I was in my business classes, what I would do is I'd wake up at 7:00. I run the classes. Be there at 7:45. By 10:00, my first round of class is over. I would go get as much homework done as I possibly could in those morning few hours, and then literally the entire afternoon I would just be building my own businesses. I did that all of college pretty much. Pretty much all of college. All of college. What shocked me, what blew me away was that even when I was in my entrepreneurial classes, and we go through it in my marketing classes, my business classes, that's what my major was, I was still one of the only students who was actually doing business, who was actually selling stuff, who's actually doing the things that we were learning and could actually have deep conversations with the professors because I was actually doing it. It shocked me to death. I did not understand why that was. Why is that? Why is that that I could not actually find other people who are willing to do the stuff they were learning about? I was like, "How do you guys expect to be making it? You're really going to put all of your learning into the hands of somebody else?" That's a little bit freaky. You can jumpstart. You can find great mentors. You can find good courses and classes. You can find great books out there. Learn the best from the best from the best, right? Learn those things, which is great, but oh my gosh. I would get in somewhat fights with a lot of different students. Not fights, but I would kind of tell them off a little bit and be like, "Get real. Holy crap. Are you serious?" It was something that frustrated me for a long time until I was reading this book. In this book it was describing how most people on the planet are not ambitious. They're not. Most people in life are not ambitious. To you and me, entrepreneurs of the world, we think everyone's like us. I thought that for a long time, and that's not true. If you're an entrepreneur and you're out there doing stuff, there's only like 2% of the population, I don't know what the percentage is, but it's really small the ambitious side of humanity. Right? I'm not calling them as lazy. I'm not making fun of them, but it's just the reality that a lot of other people in life all they're looking for ... They want to come home. They want to do their 9:00 to 5:00 and they are totally find doing the exact same thing everyday. I am not that way. I bet and I guess you are not that way listening to this right now. I had to come to grips with that for a while, which is the reason why you can't just go recruit friends and family because most the time they are not like you. They are not like me. I've got some sickening work ethic. You know what I mean? I'm a workaholic. I get it. I love it. It's super fun. I really, really enjoy it. I understand that I'm a bit extreme about it. For me to hold other people to the same level of fanaticism is not a good thing to do at all. They're fanatics in other areas that I'm not. We're all different, which is great. In this area of business, in this area of progression, in this area of entrepreneurship, not that many people are actually aggressive individuals. Not that many people are progressive. Not that many people are ambitious. Right? Like I was saying, it's the whole reason why I built what I do. It's the reason that I do what I do. I attract to me individuals who are go-getters so that we can have a fun team full of go-getters, rather than recruiting as many people as I possibly can to just find the one or two people who are actually going to be the real producers and real builders. To me that sucks. It's stupid. Are you kidding? I don't want to do that. I'm just going to collect a fee on these other people who aren't going to do anything anyway. I don't totally feel right about that. If I know someone's not going to do anything, I say no to them. Right? I'm not going to recruit them. I don't want them in. Anyway, that's kind of the first premise, the first principle. Most people in life are not ambitious. When you as an entrepreneur are failing, a lot of times it's because when you are selling, you are selling like an entrepreneur who wants to be sold, instead of selling like someone who just wants a little bit better than they currently have wants to be sold. Does that make sense? Someone who's not as aggressive or ambitious, someone who's not an entrepreneur. You remember when you weren't an entrepreneur? You remember how boring that was? Remember that? Everything's black and white. Probably you don't even remember. Everything's in color now that you're an entrepreneur, but it's true though. One of the issues why sales is so rough sometimes on an MLMer is because they're going around and they're taking a message that is meant for someone who's a little bit more ambitious in life, and they're telling it to people who are not actually that ambitious. They're totally fine. They're like, "You know, I really don't want this." What you have to do is you have to convince them and you have to go through tons of people. I hate that game. I hate that game. See, most entrepreneurs what they are is they're pleasure seekers, right? We all seek pleasure, meaning I super ... I would love to go own a second house on a beach somewhere someday. That motivates me, but for a lot of people the only thing that motivates them is just getting away from their job. They're running from pain. You're either selling towards pleasure or you're running away from pain. Most entrepreneurs, the ambitious people of life, are ambitious towards pleasure, towards things that they want, towards their goals. Right? However, most MLMers who've been brought in and were not ambitious, they are just trying to seek relief from pain. You got to make sure that whatever message is that you're sending, that you're going out there and you're saying, "Hey, here's my thing," whatever it is that you're selling whether it's the downline or your product, you got to make sure you're matching it to the audience. What I've been doing in this web class that I've been running, and I just said we got those 80 people that came in, what I've been doing is I've been going back through and making sure that I'm speaking to both audiences because I know that there's some people who are ambitious already, and then there's some people who are not as ambitious, but they're trying to learn to become so. That's great. I want to make sure that I speak to those individuals. I'll say phrases like, "Hey. Imagine being able to pay your house off in three years instead of 30 years." Right? That's a real thing. I'm on track to do that right now, which is awesome. Three years instead of 30 years. That's incredible. That's the for pleasure people. That's the ambitious people. Those are the people who are true entrepreneurs, the people who have learned it, who have practiced it, who get it. I also need to speak for the people who are trying to get away from pain. Sorry. My computer just ... A little notification there. People away from pain. I'm going to say, "Imagine what it would be like to just get away from your boss. Imagine just to have your life expenses covered right now or be able to get an extra couple hundred dollars every month to pay some bills." That's pretty low. I always say a couple grand because ... Anyway, it's got to be at least a couple grand for me to really bat an eye at it. Anyway, that's what I'm trying to say is that with these messages and the things that you're out there doing, make sure that what you're doing is that you're selling in a way that matches the listener. Is this an individual who is motivated by pleasure or motivated by the escape of pain? When you start looking at it that way, the game can be a lot easier. What I do is as an actual filter, I use that as an actual filter. Meaning if an individual is motivated by pleasure, I want them in my downline. If they are not, I'm a little bit more slow to let them in my downline. They still go through the same application process. By the way, thank you for all those you guys who are applying. That's very nice of you. I'm not pitching you ever in this podcast. I'm not pitching. I'm not ever asking you to go and join. That's the reason why. I'm just keeping it ... I don't know. I just wanted to share some of the things that I do and why it works. I know this is why it works. Anyway, figure out is this person a person who gets motivated by pleasure or pain, and then match the message to that individual. By doing that, you actually will ... That filer ... I mean it depends what you want. If you're trying to find the individual who is more trying to escape pain, you're going to match your message to that. I will ask you, I will motivate you to not recruit that kind of individual. Typically, and I'm going to be careful as I say this, I'm a respecter of all individuals. I'm a respecter of all people. However, that kind of person who is motivated by the escape of pain typically turns into a project. I have enough projects in my business. I don't need a person as my project. Understand as I say that, I'm trying to be sensitive. I'm not trying to be mean or anything at that, but I mean let's be real here, right? Not all people are the same. For that reason, not all people have the same goals. Not all people want to make the same amount of money. Not all people want the same lifestyle. Right? Why should I act like everyone should be a good fit in my downline? They're not going to be. My systems are amazing because they pull to me the people who would be good. Then I just have prepackaged things for them that I hand them when I join. I'm like, "Here you go. Done. Go press that button, turn it on, and you'll get some leads coming to you. Here's how to run it," which is awesome. I make sure that my message is a match for the market that I want. Message to market match. What that's doing is I'm trying to find the people who are motivated by pleasure, who are go-getters, who are ambitious individuals. Anyway, I actually was not planning to go on deeply as I did on this one. Anyway, just wanted to drop that to you guys. First of all, to let you know that I'm alive. Second of all, know and see what I'm starting to see, what I'm trying to work on, which is I'm trying to make sure that I'm speaking to both, but I'm recruiting really only from one. Anyway, that's been it. Hey, guys, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Hopefully things have been going well for you. I got some cool surprises coming up for you in this audience sometime in the future. We got a cool secret project going on here and I'm very excited for it. Stay tuned and you guys will find out about it very soon. I think you guys will actually really enjoy it. It's pretty insane value. All right, guys. Talk to you later. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Would you like to me to teach your own downline five simple MLM recruiting tips for free? If so, go download your free MLM Master's Pack by subscribing to this podcast at SecretMLMHacksRadio.com.

How to Stop Stuttering by Replacing Your Current Mindset Private Intensive Coaching: https://thesmoothspeechsystem.com/coaching - - Hello, it's great to see you again. My name is Michael Williams and the title of this sessions is How to stop stuttering by replacing your current mindset. How to stop stuttering by replacing your current mindset. Now hopefully you've had a chance to take a look or listen to the last session because we touched on this already. The last session we talked about how to stop stuttering by replacing your current pattern of speaking and we touched on how to stop stuttering by replacing your current way of thinking. So let's go a little deeper into this way of thinking. How to stop stuttering by replacing your current mindset. So for many people, for many, many, many people who struggle with their speech, they have experienced times where they were completed fluent. These were times, and we called this the placebo effect these were times where they felt hopeful, where they felt confident, where they felt good. I've had hundreds upon hundreds of people where have told me that after watching my videos they went fluent for a day, for a week, for a month. Right? Why did this happen? Again, we call this the placebo effect and we'll talk about that in another video or another series. But it has everything to do with their mindset with their thinking, their beliefs at that current period of time, with their state. Right? With their mental state, with their emotional state. Okay? So, let's think about that. Let's think about that. By changing your current mindset and by keeping it changed systematically you can improve your speech. Now one thing that I wanna say here is when we use the expression, how to stop stuttering really what we're talking about is not how to stop stuttering; we're talking about how to become an excellent speaker, how to smooth out your speech, how to start speaking more smoothly, more calmly, more clearly, with more confidence, with more authority. That's what we're talking about, right? So we really don't want to focus on a negative go, how to stop stuttering. What we actually want to focus on is how to start speaking a certain way and a very important part, something that has a huge impact on how you speak has to do with your mindset. So there are a few elements of your mindset that we want to look at and that is how you anticipated upcoming events. So let's say you have a meeting coming up or a phone call or you're going to get coffee, or there's a situation where you have to introduce yourself. How do you think about that event? So for many people who've struggled in the past with these situations, with these events they negatively anticipate those events. So they have this train of thinking that takes them into a direction that they don't want to go. This is your default way of thinking your default mindset. Default mindset is to worry about it, it so think about or worry about getting stuck, or stuttering, or stammering. Right. So what you must do is replace that mindset with a different one, with a new one, with a better one, with one that is more instructive. Right? And it's not something that you just do once, but is something that you have to continuously do. So if you find yourself thinking about, and worrying about, and anticipating getting stuck, and anticipating things on that; what you must gently do is replace those thoughts continuously, gently and continuously with thoughts of how you want to speak with thoughts of someone that you admire how they speak Your model, you'll hear me talk about modeling it's a huge part of a PRO90D Speech System. So you've replaced your old mindset with a new one and by continuously doing this with every single situation what you will find is that gradually, gradually your mindset will begin to change because the way that you think the way that you think is habitual. You have a pattern of thinking, a way that you think and you can change that pattern of thinking but it starts at every time you have a particular thought that's taken you in a direction that you don't want to go, you take that thought, take it captive and you reframe it, you substitute it with something else. Does that make sense? So the PRO90D Speech System is all about you replacing your current mindset and we give you the tools to do that. So I want to invite you to take a look at our PRO90D mobile self-study where we give you the specific tools to replace your current mindset. We also give you the tools to replace your current way of speaking. Once again, this is Michael Williams. Thank you so much for watching and look out for our next session. We'll see you there.Subscribe to How to Speak Smoothly, Clearly & Confidently on Soundwise

We have a look at Flash Point Fire Rescue this week (one of the games requested during the contest). First though we have a look at a few games we've played in the last few weeks. Railways of the World 01:40 Voyages of Marco Polo 06:24 Thurns and Taxis 13:05 Friday 20:43 We then have a look back (24:55) at a game we all really enjoyed (well, most of us anyway) - Dungeon Petz. We've all played it since right? Right? Why or why not? We then delve into Flash Point - this is an early cooperative game for the group, does it still hold up? With 2 (potential) alpha gamers in the group, how does this game handle that? What do we think about the interesting theme? What about the random fire spread and random points of interest? And we end off as usual with our final thoughts on the game.