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Let's Re-frame Change Yes, let's re-examine and take another perspective of change, personal change work and all within around five minutes. To do something new or different we sometimes pull away from 'change' - No one likes change - Really? You're probably listening to this podcast because you want to develop yourself and create the change in yourself to become the best 'you' you can be. AND You're not even sure what that best you is because I can tell you know you are always more than you think you are or can be. We can resist change because we fear we will fail, look stupid, feel embarrassed and a whole lot worse in our imagination So............. Let's reframe change to an EXPERIMENT. Experiments just get results and you can then adapt, tweak, add or subtract and experiment again until you get better than you want. Maybe we'll a deeper dive into this and see how we can incorporate experimentation in our lives that create the reality we want for ourselves and helps others to do the same. Let me know your thoughts in this way of looking at change or the deeper dive I'm considering by emailing me feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Shine brightly Paul Please remember you can leave a comment or email me with questions, requests and feedback. If you have enjoyed this or any other episode please share and subscribe. Just email me feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Go to paulclough.co.uk/subscribe to learn more Or simply click here to go straight to Apple Music / iTunes to subscribe OR leave a review If you want to access my FREE HYPNOSIS tracks go to paulcloughonline.com/podcast Follow and inter-react on twitter @pcloughie Why not look for me and the podcast on SPOTIFY AND the app Castbox I'm also in iHeart radio YouTube - copy n paste UC3BlpN4voq8aAN7ePsIMt2Q into search bar The Libsyn podcast page http://personaldevelomentunplugged.libsyn.com Stitcher, tunein, learnoutloud, Google Play Music Here is your show on RadioPublic: Listen to Personal Development Unplugged on RadioPublic  

Full Transcript Below Show Summary: Life is funny… sort of.    That’s how Kristin sees it! Kristin Smedley is an award winning non-profit leader, TEDx speaker, and author – but she never planned on any of that. Image of the Thriving Blind Book Cover however her personal path to greatness took an unexpected turn when two of her three children were diagnosed as blind. She had to learn the tools of blindness and build a team of experts that would help her navigate this path that she had not been trained for. Kristin’s two blind sons are now thriving. (taken from www.KritinSmedley.com) Blind Abilities Teen correspondent, Simon Bonenfant, sat down with Kristin to talk about her book Thriving Blind. Kristin shares her experience from raising 2 sons who happen to be Blind, and how she found confidence from  others who were living successful lives without sight. Her journey through education and meeting parents who faced the limited expectations gave Kristin  the incentive to do more.  Learn about the foundation she created and what led her to write her first book, Thriving Blind. You can find Thriving Blindin paperback , and in Large Print, as well as in Kindle Edition. You can also go to www.KristinSmedley.comand get the Electronic Braille format. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Storeand Google Play Store. Check out the Blind Abilities Communityon Facebook, the Blind Abilities Page, the Job Insights Support Groupand the Assistive Technology Community for the Blind and Visually Impaired.   Full Transcript: Full Transcript Meet Kristin Smedley: Author, of Thriving Blind: Stories of Real People Succeeding Without Sight. Interview by Simon Bonenfant Kristen Smedley: I was pretty much told, "They might have to know Braille, they'll have to learn how to use a cane, and good luck." Jeff Thompson: Introducing Kristin Smedley, author of the new book Thriving Blind. Kristen Smedley: Nobody told me what was possible for them. I had no education on blindness whatsoever. I spent 19 years going out and finding people that were literally succeeding without sight. Jeff Thompson: Thriving Blind on Amazon for paperback and Kindle, and large print, and you can go to kristinsmedley.com for the electronic Braille version. Kristen Smedley: And how about this? I told our principal about it, and he sent Michael's entire IEP team to that high school to hear Eric talk. Jeff Thompson: Kristin is an advocate for parents of blind children, and herself is a parent of two sons who happen to be blind. Kristen Smedley: "I'm kind of nervous and all," and she goes, "Are you kidding? I was so happy to be invited because the first book I was in, it was about being a failure." Jeff Thompson: An interview conducted by our teen correspondent, Simon Bonenfant. Simon Bonenfant: We all have our cross to bear, and we all have something that's going on, and there's two ways to look at that. We could either get down about that, or we can find encouragement in each other through our sufferings, and turn into something good if we stand together through that. It sounds like your book promotes that as well. Kristen Smedley: I love that, Simon. Kristen Smedley: Whether they were blind from birth or came into blindness later in life, they all had a different strength that they found in themselves. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store and Google Play store. That's two words, Blind Abilities. And be sure to enable the Blind Abilities skill on your Amazon device just by saying "enable Blind Abilities". Jeff Thompson: And now, please welcome Kristin Smedley and Simon Bonenfant. Kristen Smedley: When you're first told that you think you're going to have this life plan, and now you got to rethink your whole thing, it kind of stinks. Simon Bonenfant: Hello Blind Abilities, this is Simon Bonenfant here. Today I got a chance to talk to Kristin Smedley. How are you doing, Kristin? Kristen Smedley: I'm good, thanks. I'm so happy to be here, Simon. Simon Bonenfant: And you are the author of a book, Thriving Blind. Kristen Smedley: That's right, that's my new book. First book, new book. Simon Bonenfant: Very good, congratulations. Kristen Smedley: Thank you. Simon Bonenfant: And what is your book about? Kristen Smedley: So Thriving Blind is stories of real people succeeding without sight. It highlights 13 people that are chasing their dreams, living in the careers that they choose to have, regardless of vision loss. And I say 13, it's actually 12 interviews that I did, and the 13th person is Erik Weihenmayer, the blind mountain climber and adventurer extraordinaire that wrote the forward for the book. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Simon Bonenfant: Let's just go back a little bit. How did you get the idea for the book, and what is your past interactions with blindness? How did you get in the blindness field? Kristen Smedley: I came about this by accident. Two of my three kids were diagnosed as blind 19 and 15 years ago. I was pretty much told, "They might have to know Braille, they'll have to learn how to use a cane, and good luck." Nobody told me what was possible for them. I had no education on blindness whatsoever. I spent 19 years going out and finding people that were literally succeeding without sight, because I wanted my boys to do that. I didn't want to just be that we would go home and be blind. Simon Bonenfant: What was their journey like throughout school? Kristen Smedley: They did all of the regular public schools. They were even on baseball teams and the swim team. All kinds of stuff in our town. I've worked myself silly to make sure that they could do everything that they wanted to do. Honestly, I never would've anticipated all of this, and I didn't think all of this was going to be possible when those first diagnoses came, until we met Erik Weihenmayer. Kristen Smedley: He had just come off of Everest and was climbing the other seven summits, and I thought, "Well... " That was when Michael was six. I thought, "Well, if he can do it, we can do it. We just have to find all the tools and resources to do it." Which has been an interesting journey with getting some things and fighting for others, as I'm sure your family can attest to. But we've made it work. Simon Bonenfant: And how did you meet Erik? How did you first meet him? Kristen Smedley: You know, somebody sent me his book when Michael was a year old, I believe, and then... I have to remember. Through happen circumstance, I found out he was going to be speaking at an event in my hometown of Philly, and there's the Associated Services of the Blind of Philadelphia— Simon Bonenfant: Yep. ASB, yeah. Kristen Smedley: Yeah, they put on an awards banquet every year, the Louis Braille Awards, and Erik was being recognized. Somehow I was able to get ahold of Erik's dad Ed. I got him on the phone and said, "Listen, while you're here, we'd love for Michael to meet Erik," and it turned out that Erik was speaking at a high school right near my house. And how about this? I told our elementary school principal about it, and he sent Michael's entire IEP team to that high school to hear Erik talk. Simon Bonenfant: Wow, that's incredible. Kristen Smedley: Yep. And I really credit that moment with, when they came out of Erik's speech, their minds were wide open to all the possibilities for Michael, and then eventually Mitchell when he went to that school. Simon Bonenfant: That's great. And I've heard you speak before [inaudible] and I've always taken away that you're a big advocate for the blind doing whatever they want to do. Kristen Smedley: Whatever they want to do. Yeah. Simon Bonenfant: It sounds like Erik really inspired you to get that way. Kristen Smedley: He was the number one inspiration for that, and the second person along those lines was a woman by the name of Kay Lahey who's a mom of a blind man, because he's now in his late 20s or early 30s on Capitol Hill, but she was the first mom that I met that said, "You can still have them do whatever they want, you're just going to have to do a lot of work behind the scenes in the early years to get them the tools that they need, and then watch them soar." So I was lucky. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Simon Bonenfant: And when did you have the idea first to seriously pursue the book and chronicle your experiences and other people's experience? When did you first get the idea to say this is something that you're going to seriously pursue? Kristen Smedley: That's a great question. Right around 2011, I started the patient organization for our specific blindness. Initially it was set up to fund research for a cure, but then I was meeting all these parents through that organization that were pretty much, for the most part, sitting on the couch and crossing their fingers for that cure, because they still had no idea how to get out there and get the kids the tools and resources. A lot of schools were telling them that they didn't have the resources, and they were giving them some bad information in terms of Braille and activities and options and stuff like that. Kristen Smedley: So then I started sharing all the stories that I knew of these folks that I was meeting, blind architect and mechanic, all the possibilities that were out there, and I thought, "Okay. We've got to get this to everybody." It was going to be either a website or a pamphlet for doctors to hand these families so that they knew there was some potential. And that pamphlet and website evolved into a book. Simon Bonenfant: Wow, that's great. Simon Bonenfant: Just going back to your foundation, what is your foundation called, and how did you get the idea to start that up? Kristen Smedley: So crb1.org is the Curing Retinal Blindness Foundation, and like I said, it specifically started for kids like my boys that are, it's a mutation in the crb1 gene that causes their Leber's congenital amaurosis. We did initially start because there was work being down in the field that was using gene therapy to restore some vision, and initially that was my hope, that a miracle would come and they'd be able to see. All in a day's work, right? But then we quickly had to diversify the mission to realize that that's how we were going to help people get tools and resources to raise these kids. Kristen Smedley: Because honestly, there's a lot of people out there that are blind and happy with their lives that way. Simon Bonenfant: Oh, absolutely. Kristen Smedley: And honestly, in my house right now, one of two is saying, "I'm good. I'm fine. This is me, and this is my life, and I'm just fine." The other one's saying— Simon Bonenfant: That's the way I see it. Kristen Smedley: Yeah. And there's a lot of people in the blind community that are like that. And then the other half is saying, "Well, if I have an option to do some things that I can't do without sight, I'd like that option." Simon Bonenfant: And that's okay as well. Kristen Smedley: Yeah! Yeah. But you know, for a while there, the blind community wasn't open to... one side of the fence wasn't open to the other camp's way of thinking, and I think that we can all live in the same world with those two different options and be cool with that. Simon Bonenfant: Exactly. Because until that day comes, they're blind, and we can all learn from each other. Kristen Smedley: Yep. Simon Bonenfant: That's the way it works. Simon Bonenfant: So going forward to your book, how did you get the people that you were wanting to get? When you first started it, did you have instantly in mind these 13 people, or did it kind of evolve? Kristen Smedley: That's a great question. I just reached out to the people that I had met, and there's a few that I had not met at that point. It was just through conversations with the IEP team and other people. When I was saying, "I'm putting this book together," people said, "Oh you got to interview this person, and you got to interview that person." But for the most part, I met them all and they all jumped on board with it and said yes. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Simon Bonenfant: So how did you conduct the interviews? Did you go to where they lived? [crosstalk] Kristen Smedley: It was all on the phone. Simon Bonenfant: Oh, on the phone. Okay. Very good. Kristen Smedley: Yeah, I found an app called... if I remember right, it was called Tape A Call, and I was able to record all the interviews and take notes, because my mind can't do one or the other, I have to do two things [crosstalk] And then I transcribed all of those interviews, and interestingly enough, initially I was writing the book in my take on their interview. And then a friend of mine said... I was in this Mastermind group where we all got together on Skype and talked about our businesses and our ideas and help each other work through stuff. And my Mastermind group said, "Wait a minute. People are going to want to hear their own words. From your people that you interviewed, do it in their words." That actually made it way easier. I just edited it down to fit in the book. Kristen Smedley: So it's totally written in, it's their own words, each of the people I interviewed, and you can tell one of my editors emailed me and said, "Is this guy that I'm going to... " it was Simon Wheatcroft... she goes, "Is he from the UK? Because he talks differently." The way I wrote it, I wrote it all in his voice. I said yeah. She's like, "Okay, I need to know that as an editor." Simon Bonenfant: Wow, so how long did it take you from the time of the interviews to the writing? Kristen Smedley: It was a few years, because I did all those interviews, and then it was trying to figure out what was the best mechanism to get it out there, and then it was... There was a lot of stuff that happened in my life, and kept getting put on the back burner, and the foundation was really taking off. Kristen Smedley: If I'm being perfectly honest, one of the biggest issues I had was fear. I was really nervous about; I had never written a book before and I wasn't a writer. I'm very good at speaking and— Simon Bonenfant: Yes you are. Kristen Smedley: I'm used to parties and stuff, but writing was one of my least talents on the list growing up, and in my adult life, and I was so nervous about putting a written work out into the world. And then my life just happened that I had to do something, I had to start getting some income, and it was also... This mission just had to get out there. I was meeting way too many moms that were struggling, and I didn't have this resource to hand them yet. Kristen Smedley: "You know what, Kristin? Get over it. You've got to get over yourself and your fears," and I went and talked to a lot of authors that had similar fears early on. Talked to people that published successful books, listened to a zillion interviews and podcasts, and just went for it. Simon Bonenfant: Wow. And who are the 12 other people? You mentioned Erik is the 13th person, but who are the 12 other people that you got? Kristen Smedley: Oh gosh, now I'm going off the top of my head. I'll give you a few highlights and then people can dive into the book. Kristen Smedley: One that really stuck with me, especially when I was editing and going through some stuff in my life, was Monty Bedwell. Did you ever hear of him? Simon Bonenfant: No, actually. Kristen Smedley: He's a good friend of Erik's. He kayaked the Grand Canyon and his book is called 226. That's how many miles are in the Grand Canyon. Simon Bonenfant: Wow. Kristen Smedley: But his story... I should mention that half of the people in the book... I didn't intend it this way, but half were born blind, and the other half went blind as adults. Simon Bonenfant: Oh, that's interesting. That's a good mix, then, I guess. Kristen Smedley: Right? And I didn't even intend that. But Lonnie is one of the ones that went blind as an adult, and the stuff he went through in his life, and being in the service, and all this stuff, and he goes blind from an accident that was caused by one of his best friends. Total freak accident. And the fact that Lonnie came through that, and his life is incredible now. His whole story, the undertone is loving and forgiveness and friendship and kindness. It got me through so many of the struggles in my own life. I always go back to Lonnie's chapter, and I talk with him every now and again, because he's just a cool, nice guy. He's a single parent, and his stories of how he handled... Kristen Smedley: It was actually his five-year-old daughter that was the pivotal moment of him handling his blindness. The story's hilarious of him... Let me just tell you, it involved driving a lawn tractor. Simon Bonenfant: Wow. Kristen Smedley: And his five-year-old putting her hands on her hips and telling him to get over himself and get on with his life. It's a hilarious story. Kristen Smedley: But Lonnie, that was a really cool one for me. Kristen Smedley: Chris Downey is another one that went blind as an adult. He was a very successful architect. Again, had a medical issue that there was something that saved his life, a surgery, caused his blindness, and when he woke up, totally blind. He said everybody came in and took his life away. Even his phone, because they said, "Your life is going to be different now. You're going on disability. You're not working anymore," and he said he had a 10-year-old son at home that he needed to set an example for. He got back to work as an architect within a month of that surgery, and he's more successful now than he was then. Kristen Smedley: That is a TED Talk that you should watch. Chris Downey on if we would design communities with the blind in mind, how much better those towns would be. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Yeah, we could probably put that in the show notes. Kristen Smedley: Oh, that would be great! Simon Bonenfant: We have a show notes portion we put that. Simon Bonenfant: Getting on to TED Talks, you actually did a TED Talk. That's a good segue, right? You did TED Talk? Kristen Smedley: I did. I did. It was the hardest thing I ever did. Simon Bonenfant: Wow. What was that about, the TED Talk? Kristen Smedley: That was about how my perception of blindness changed, and it was from my two boys. Mainly Michael, because he was the first born. Kristen Smedley: For a long time, I wasn't proud to mention how horrible I was in dealing with the blindness diagnosis. I mean, if you want to see an epic example of how not to handle a blindness diagnosis, that was me. Kristen Smedley: But Michael changed my perception on that when he was three, and when I finally looked at the situation differently, that's when our journey just exploded into amazingness, and the talk is trying to teach the lesson that if you look at things differently, especially blindness, how much your life can open up. Simon Bonenfant: I'm sure you learned a lot from the book. What was the biggest takeaway that you learned from all the interviews that you apply to your own life? Because a lot of these stories can apply to anyone, really, not blindness. Just the idea of overcoming obstacles, whatever that is... that means blindness to some people, maybe it's not, maybe it's just in the mind for some people, overcoming fear and things. So what was your biggest takeaway that you apply to your own life from your interviews? Kristen Smedley: Oh my gosh, you have the greatest questions. Kristen Smedley: So I could probably talk for hours on this, but I think... I went into this to teach people about changing their perception of blindness, and that was the goal of each interview. But I'm telling you, when I was going through the process... remember I told you it took a couple of years to get it written and everything... every time I was going back to these chapters to rewrite and edit and get them perfect, something was going on in my life. Kristen Smedley: One of the biggest ones was when I got divorced. And then I was going through and editing these chapters, and I was taking stuff away from them, like Lonnie with forgiveness and friendship, and Diane Berberian is the iron man competitor, and her thing is just finding the fun in everything, and the joy. And her stories, you know, so much happened with her. She went through a divorce, too, and she went through a bunch of stuff, but she made me laugh through the entire interviews, and even when I was editing her chapter. Kristen Smedley: So I guess it's hard to pinpoint just one thing, but each person gave me a different takeaway, most of them being resilience, and everybody's got something. Everyone has something they struggle with. And even all these people, whether they were blind from birth or came into blindness later in life, they all had a different strength that they found in themselves along their journey somewhere. Simon Bonenfant: I always find that we could have encouragement from other people having struggled, because we all have struggles in our life. No one's perfect. I always say, "We all have our crosses to carry," and it's true that we all have our cross to bear, and we all have something that's going on, and there's two ways to look at that. We could either get down about that, or we could find encouragement in each other through our sufferings, and turn it into something good if we stand together through that. It sounds like your book promotes that as well. Kristen Smedley: I love that, Simon. That's... how old are you? Simon Bonenfant: 17. Kristen Smedley: Oh my god. That's an incredible way to look at this world, and let's promote that perspective more, because if people would do that, could you imagine? If people would realize everybody's got something going on, and let's see what we can do to help the other person out, that would be an incredible way for things to not be such big things in this world. Simon Bonenfant: Exactly. Simon Bonenfant: And going back to the book, when you were doing interviews for the people, did you have a set of questions, or did you kind of make it go as the conversation flowed? How did you end up having a method, too, to where you asked the questions and things? Kristen Smedley: You know what? I was so nervous about it, because I had never written a book before. So to that point, I had a list of questions, and then I'm like, "Nah, that's stupid. Let's do it this way. Nope. Let's do it this way." And then I was putting off all the interviews because I wanted it to be perfect. So then I'm like, "Okay, here's what I want people to get out of this." I went back to my, when I was trained to be a teacher, a lesson plan. What do they know? What do they need to know? What are the objectives? And how will I know that this will see success to measure it? Kristen Smedley: So I figured, all right, I want people to know what this person's condition is, what the blindness is. Were they born blind or did they go blind? What are their big tools and resources that are going to be helpful to everybody else to know about? But the biggest thing that I wanted to come out of this, and that's in each chapter, there's a section at the end called The Bright Side, because I didn't want this to be a downer. I didn't want it to be heavy. So I asked every single person... We call them blind perks in our house. Hey, let's face it, when you're at Disney World and they see the cane and they go, "Do you want to go to the front of the line?" We're like, "Yep." Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kristen Smedley: "It's 100 degrees and I'm standing in this line." Simon Bonenfant: I always do that in the airport with the security. That's a nice little perk, too. Kristen Smedley: And you know what? There's several people in the book that highlighted the airport as one of the biggest perks, that they just get to be treated like the red carpet. Kristen Smedley: Do you know Bill McCann? Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, I know him very well. Yep. [crosstalk] Kristen Smedley: So he's in the book, and he says that his partner Albert called— Simon Bonenfant: I know him, too. Kristen Smedley: Yeah, so Albert calls the cane the parting of the Red Sea. He's like, "Here we go. Stick the cane out," and everybody gets out of the way, especially when they're in a hurry. All that fun stuff. Kristen Smedley: But yes, I did go through... I had a list of questions. I was still nervous, though. And actually, I talked about Diane Berberian being all about fun. She was my first interview. I was so nervous, and then we got to talking on the phone, and I said, "I'm so happy that you agreed to do this. I'm kind of nervous and all." She goes, "Are you kidding? I was so happy to be invited because the first book I was in, it was about being a failure!" I said, "What?" She had trained for a triathlon and totally messed it up. She was awful. I don't even know if she finished. So somebody wrote a book about what not to do, and she was highlighted in that book. She's like, "I'm so excited that I'm involved in a book with the success word in it." Kristen Smedley: So then I had the questions and just kind of followed that format, but each of the interviews kind of took on a life of their own, and everyone's personality came through in those chapters. It was cool. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. That's the way I do my interviews. I don't really come up with a set question. I have obviously a topic that's going to come up, but as the conversation flows, I think up questions in my head and I ask them and answer them and it kind of segues in [inaudible] follow a strict format, it's not a from-the-heart conversation. It's so strict and rigid. It's got to come from the heart, and it's got to be a natural conversation. And those are the best ones. Kristen Smedley: Yeah. Simon Bonenfant: That's with podcasting, interviewing, writing, that's really what that's about, is the conversation. Kristen Smedley: Yeah. Again, your age and being able to do that, because that also takes a lot of... You have a very good talent for listening, then, because you really have to be a good listener to then know what you want to draw out of what that person is saying. That's cool that you can do that at 17. Simon Bonenfant: Thank you. Simon Bonenfant: Who is your biggest, or at the time was your biggest supporter when you were writing the book, and who really supported you in saying, "This is something that's going to be good," and supported your effort all the way through? Kristen Smedley: I'm extremely lucky, and I say it all the time, that I know how blessed I am to have the team that I have, in terms of family, friends and whatnot. I know a lot of people don't have that. Some of it I built through a network and all of that, and some I'm just blessed with, with my parents and I have a really big family, and then my kids. Kristen Smedley: But I would say, if I had to say who the number one person was, it was my three kids. They thought it was the coolest idea in the world. They knew that it was taking a lot of time and effort to get it together, and there was a lot of nights where they had to just... especially when I was doing the interviews, you know, you can't have anybody bursting in and yelling for something, and they'd have to sit outside and wait for me to finish that. But they had a lot of patience through the journey, but a ton of cheering, and now they're the ones out there helping me at book signings and interviews on Facebook and all that kind of stuff. Mitchell's here taking pictures and video for my social media. I mean, they're part of the book team, the launch team, and Team Kristin Smedley, I guess. Simon Bonenfant: That's great! I'm sure it's been good for them to see all the blind role models, and luckily they're going to have a network when they get into working. They're going to have a network of great people that they can tap into. And you're going to have that as well. [crosstalk] Kristen Smedley: Yeah. It's been cool. Of course, I guess they probably don't like it on the days where I'm like, "Really? You're acting lazy today? How about when this one had this issue," and I start quoting the book. They're like, "All right, get away." Kristen Smedley: Yeah, no, it is cool. They have a very big network of support and inspiration, for sure. Simon Bonenfant: Good. Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, I know you have a very big network. I was at your event back in March you did. Will you describe all about that event, and what was that event for? Because I was actually there, and I did a comedy act. I was telling jokes that night. But what was the broad scope of that night? Kristen Smedley: I'm still getting messages about how fun you were at the event, because we tend to always try to do something a little different than everybody else and you just really enhanced that that night. It was great. Simon Bonenfant: Oh, thank you. Kristen Smedley: So that's Cocktails for the Cure, and that is our big launch each year for the Cure Retinal Blindness Foundation. It wasn't actually designed in the beginning to be a fundraiser; it was a celebration of all the work that we've done. It's pretty much a gratitude party where we say thank you to everybody that's helped us, and get everybody geared up to do fundraising and outreach and help us build a network. The model of it has worked tremendously to grow that mission really far, really fast. Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, I got to meet some good people. I got to meet a friend of yours, [inaudible] that night, who actually was a teacher who taught your son Michael. Me and her got to meet up and talk, and that was great talking to her. I've actually reached out to her since, so she gets a little shout out in the podcast. Kristen Smedley: She's helping get book signings, too, for me. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Simon Bonenfant: We ask this question a lot. It's sort of like a winding up question here at Blind Abilities. What advice would you give to either parents of blind children who are new to this blind world kind of thing, or blind children, or blind adults themselves who are trying to rebuild? What advice would you want to leave them with, listening to the podcast? Kristen Smedley: Here's the thing, I don't sugarcoat that diagnosis day. When they're handed something that is not anything that they had ever thought, like blindness, it stinks. When you're first told that you think you're going to have this life plan, and now you got to rethink your whole thing, it kind of stinks. Kristen Smedley: However, and I would say sit with those feelings for a little while. A lot of times, we say brush the feelings off and keep on going. I would say sit with it, find at least one person that you can talk to about all of your feelings around it, and then of course get Thriving Blind, and take a look at the different people in that book, and I would bet that each person that reads Thriving Blind will find one person, one chapter that is a person that's like them and start there. And then read through the stories where, because you'll see in every story, everybody grappled with that moment when their life changed, and then how they moved on. Kristen Smedley: The biggest piece of advice, though, is besides changing your perception and your attitude and your mindset, is get the tools that you need. You can have all the positive thinking in the world and all the role models and everybody cheering you on, but let's be honest. If you're a blind person in this world and don't know the tools of mobility and independence, like the cane or a guide dog, or literacy with Braille— Simon Bonenfant: And technology. Kristen Smedley: And audio, and technology, if you don't learn those things... Even if you're scared. I hated the words "Braille" and "cane" when I first was on this journey, because they meant my life was looking different. A lot of people go through that. Kristen Smedley: Once we embrace those, that's where it was Braille that Michael and Mitchell could sit in their school classrooms right alongside everybody and not only beat that 70%... they were expected to achieve a 70%... they not only blew that 70% out of the water... Michael was the class speaker at graduation, and stood up there surpassing everybody. That was Braille, that was confidence, and that was pushing the limits of what people expect you to. Kristen Smedley: I would say the number one thing is get those darn tools of what it is you need to succeed. Simon Bonenfant: Very good. Simon Bonenfant: I'm sure you've had to deal with people saying that your children could not do something. When someone said that to you, did you rise to the challenge? And what did you make sure that you did so that they would be able to do it? Kristen Smedley: I researched it, honestly, and I'll tell you a funny story real quick, if we have time. When they said at the kindergarten IEP meeting that Michael would only find his cubby... you know, the thing where you hang the jacket in? The hook? Simon Bonenfant: Yeah. Kristen Smedley: They said he would only find his cubby 70% of the time, that meant success because he was blind. And I said, "Hold on a minute." And we moved to a really nice school district, and I had been out of the classroom for years, and I knew that there was new technologies. I said, "Hold on a minute. The cubby. Does it move every day? Do cubbies move now? Or are they still the hook on the little closety thing?" I'm thinking maybe they circulate around the school or something, and they'd never be able to find it when they're blind. They're like, "No, it's attached to the wall." Kristen Smedley: So my question became, "What's expected of the sighted kids in this classroom? If the sighted kids are expected to find their cubby every day 100% of the time, Michael is expected the same," and they said, "You can't do that because he's blind." I said, "If he's missing it 30% of the time, then we're not doing our job, because that's an easy one." Simon Bonenfant: Yeah. Kristen Smedley: It's not driving a car. It's not looking across a room and seeing something. It's doing what other people do that really does not require vision. There's other ways to do it. So that was the mentality. Kristen Smedley: And honestly, I told you that it was right after that when I said that the principal took the IEP team to see Erik Weihenmayer. That sealed the deal for them that Michael could do all of that. So that was a game-changer for us. Simon Bonenfant: And I'm sure you've probably impacted countless other people who maybe wouldn't have their expectations changed about blindness, and when they met you, probably even raised their expectations for themselves and the sighted people around them as well. Kristen Smedley: Yeah. You know what? I just did a keynote for the Association for Clinical Research Professionals down in Nashville, and my one-hour speech was about setting extraordinary expectations and how I had to do that for Michael and Mitchell, and look where they are now. And usually people come up to me after my speeches and say, "You're such a great mom." Which is wonderful, everybody wants to hear that. This time, though, people said, "You just changed my life." And it had nothing to do with blindness. It was more what they're dealing with in their own lives, opening up their minds, changing their perception of it, and expecting a different journey than everyone anticipated for themselves. It's cool. Simon Bonenfant: Good. Simon Bonenfant: If someone wanted to find you on social media, what would they need to look up for you? Kristen Smedley: So first of all, when you say "Kristin Smedley" and "social media", all three of my children will roll their eyes at the same time because they're just thrilled that I'm on there and their friends follow me now, too. Karissa gets so mad. She's 14. She gets so mad when her friends comment on my posts. It's hilarious. Kristen Smedley: But anyway, my main ones are, on Facebook we have a Thriving Blind community, and it's just Facebook.com/thrivingblind. That's where you can follow stories of Michael and Mitchell, and now videos of the people in the book and then some. On Twitter, I'm @KristinSmedley. Same on Instagram, although Instagram is driving me crazy. I keep trying to learn it and it keeps surpassing me, but whatever. Kristen Smedley: Linkd.in is my big one now. Linkd.in has a lot of connections on there. Simon Bonenfant: Good. I always thought you do some Facebook live. Kristen Smedley: Oh man, Facebook live is a cool tool, man, because Facebook loves to push out that content, because it's their platform only. Kristen Smedley: Actually, Mitchell is my big Facebook liver. He does, on Thriving Blind, tech Tuesdays where he just highlights the technology that he's using. And the funny thing is, half the audience is moms and dads of blind kiddos that are watching it together to know what they should be asking for in their IEPs, but the other half is the sighted community. It just loves finding out this information, because they had no idea. Kristen Smedley: Did you see that campaign that went around about the blind people using phones? Somebody had an attitude, they put some negative things... "That woman must be faking being blind. She's got a cane and she's looking at an iPhone." Simon Bonenfant: Oh wow. Kristen Smedley: So then they were trying to do this whole educational piece to combat that of blind people do use phones. Well here on our little Thriving Blind community thing on Facebook, we're showing people every week the different things and how you use the phone and Braille and all that, so it's pretty cool. Simon Bonenfant: Oh yeah, technology has been a very, very big effort for the blind community. Well, for the sighted community, but also for the blind community in general, just open up a wide range of doors for us. Kristen Smedley: Oh, it's huge. And you know, did you ever meet Tom Lukowski at Comcast? Simon Bonenfant: No. Kristen Smedley: We'll have to get you guys together. He's right at Comcast in the city. He's their head of accessibility. Simon Bonenfant: I've heard about him, actually [crosstalk] Kristen Smedley: Yeah, he's cool. He's in the book, too. He actually, I think he went to college with Erik. And they were completely different, it's pretty funny. Kristen Smedley: His thing is, because he helped develop that X1 on Comcast where you talk into the remote, so his thing is don't build a technology product for the blind. Build it with all abilities and disabilities in mind, one product for everybody, and how that is such a positive impact on everybody is huge. Just like the X1. I mean, Karissa and I use that in our house and we can see just fine, but we're always yelling into that remote to change channels. Simon Bonenfant: Yeah. That's a nice feature. Comcast have always done a lot of good stuff. Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, and if someone wanted to buy your book, what formats do you have available, and where could someone find it, and what's the price and all that? Kristen Smedley: So right now on the print, the paperback and Kindle version are on Amazon, and a little plug for ourselves here, we hit #1 new release for both of those when they came out. They're on Amazon. Just search "Thriving Blind" on Amazon. Large print will be available, as of the recording of this interview, it'll be available in a week on Amazon. Then the super cool one that was one of the reasons that I started this whole journey in a book is the electronic Braille. That's coming out in, actually, while we're recording this, it'll be out in I think two weeks. And we have a whole team of blind youth around the country that are going to be doing a social media campaign that'll be really cool to follow on Thriving Blind on Facebook. Kristen Smedley: The e-Braille, the BRF file for that, was made possible by the CEO of T-Mobile, donated the money to National Braille Press to have that made. Simon Bonenfant: That's great. And the time of this recording, for the folks who would like to know, is May 4th today. Kristen Smedley: Hey, May the 4th be with you. Simon Bonenfant: Yeah, there you go. May 4th, 2019. So for those who are interested in getting the Braille version, that should be out in about two weeks. Kristen Smedley: And that'll be available at kristinsmedley.com. Simon Bonenfant: Oh good. So once this podcast is published, it'll be up there on the website so everybody can go grab it. All the Braille readers. That's great. Simon Bonenfant: Well Kristin, you're a very inspiring person, very inspiring advocate for the blind, and I truly want to thank you for the work that you do. Keep up the great work, because you are very inspiring and I know that your work is going to live on hopefully long past you. Kristen Smedley: Wow. Well thanks, Simon, and right back at you, dude. You've got some great stuff going on. It's fun to follow you. Simon Bonenfant: Oh, thank you very much. Simon Bonenfant: Well this is it. Reporting for Blind Abilities again, I'm Simon Bonenfant. Jeff Thompson: Be sure to check out the book Thriving Blind on Amazon and kristinsmedley.com. Jeff Thompson: Such a great job by Simon Bonenfant on doing this interview, and thank you so much to Kristin Smedley for sharing with all our listeners your story, your book, your experiences, and your passion. Jeff Thompson: A big shout out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music. You can follow Chee Chau on Twitter @LCheeChau. Jeff Thompson: I want to thank you all for listening. We hope you enjoyed. And until next time, bye-bye. [Music]  [Transition noise]  -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes... [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence] ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective: Check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com On Twitter @BlindAbilities Download our app from the App store:  'Blind Abilities'; that's two words. Or send us an e-mail at: info@blindabilities.com Thanks for listening. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Storeand Google Play Store. Check out the Blind Abilities Communityon Facebook, the Blind Abilities Page, the Job Insights Support Groupand the Assistive Technology Community for the Blind and Visually Impaired.

Why do marketers routinely ignore one big thing that can make or break their marketing strategy? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Dan Gingiss talks about why customer experience trumps marketing every time - and how you as a marketer can create viral customer experiences. Dan is an author, podcaster, keynote speaker, and noted customer experience expert who has headed up social media and customer experience for a slew of Fortune 500 companies. He has made it his business to curate examples of the best and worst customer experiences and distill the lessons learned into actionable strategies for companies looking to take their game to the next level. In this week's episode, Dan shares both why customer experience is so important as well as how marketers can develop a customer experience strategy, including actionable tips on things like writing marketing copy and getting more in touch with what your customers actually want and need. This week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, IMPACT Live,  the most immersive and high energy learning experience for marketers and business leaders. IMPACT Live takes place August 6-7, 2019 in Hartford Connecticut and is headlined by Marcus Sheridan along with special guests including world-renowned Facebook marketing expert Mari Smith and Drift CEO and Co-Founder David Cancel. Inbound Success Podcast listeners can save 10% off the price of tickets with the code "SUCCESS".  Click here to learn more or purchase tickets for IMPACT Live Some highlights from my conversation with Dan include: If you don't have a great product or service, then really no amount of marketing is going to work in the long run. It might get people to buy your product to service, but then they're going to be dissatisfied with it, and they're going to return it, or they're going to tell their friends that it's terrible, or what have you. Today there's no longer such a thing as an offline experience. Any experience - good or bad - throughout any stage of the customer journey, has a strong likelihood of being shared online. 30% of consumers say after a negative experience, that they would post a negative review online, or on social media. But, almost 50% of consumers say the same thing about a positive experience. Being responsive on social media is so critical, especially to the people that are complaining because you have an opportunity to make things right. People who complain, complain because they care. The ones who don't care have already left for your competition. They've already switched providers, and they don't care whether you fix it or not. The best place to start when building a great customer experience is with language. So many companies are using language that frankly, most consumers either don't understand, or can't connect with. One way to do this is by writing marketing copy that is witty (this is not the same as being humorous, which may or may not resonate with your audience). If you struggle to be witty, the easiest way to start is to eliminate jargon and technical terminology from your copy, and then to read what you write back to yourself and ask yourself, "does this sound like something I would say in conversation?" The best way to identify opportunities to create shareable customer experiences is to actually be a customer of your own product. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Visit Dan's website Read Dan's column on Forbes Connect with Dan on LinkedIn Follow Dan on Twitter Listen to the Experience This! podcast with Dan Gingiss and Joey Coleman Listen to the podcast to learn how to build a best-in-class customer experience strategy and hear specific examples of other companies that are already doing it. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth, and I am your host. This week my guest is Dan Gingiss, who is the Chief Experience Officer at Winning Customer Experience. Welcome Dan. Dan: Well thank you Kathleen, a pleasure to be here with you. I'm excited about the conversation. Dan and Kathleen are all smiles while recording this episode Kathleen: I am too. You have such a fascinating background to me. About Dan Gingiss Kathleen: I'm going to just toot your horn for a second, and then I'm going to let you tell my listeners really who you are. But, when I thought about introducing you it was actually kind of a challenge because most people I just introduce with their name and their title, but you are like a customer experience expert, a keynote speaker, author, podcast host, your professional background is fascinating. You've been in senior marketing, end customer experience positions at places like McDonald's Humana, Discover. I mean, I feel like if I was to do a thorough introduction of you it might take 10 minutes. Instead of me rattling on for 10 minutes, can you just give my audience a little synopsis of kind of who you are, and what you're doing today, and also how you got there? Dan: Sure. Well, I should bring you along on the road with me, because that was a fine introduction. I'll take that anytime I get a- Kathleen: My fee is very reasonable. Dan: ... Well, I describe myself as a 20 year marketer. Marketing is at my heart, it's my background. But, some time along the way I really got passionate about customer experience, and part of it is that I realized the customer experience and marketing go hand in hand. I think that the catalyst was when I first got into social media. I had done, in my career, pretty much every offline marketing channel you can think of. I've done direct mail, and I've done newspapers and magazine ads, and package inserts, and all these things. Then, I had started going through all the digital channels. I'd done email, and website marketing, et cetera. When I finally got into social media I realized that, that was the first marketing channel where people can talk back and I thought that was fascinating. That just immediately struck me as, "Wow, this is going to be something different." If you go back to the early days of social media, you see a lot of companies treating it like another broadcast channel. "Hey, I have a great idea. Let's put our TV commercial on Facebook, people will love that." Right? Shockingly, people didn't love that very much, and so the companies that started figuring out that customers talking back was a good thing, that this was an opportunity to get closer with the customer, and to learn more about them, I think became better marketers in the process. Historically we've used voice of the customer, focus groups, and other listening devices to formulate our marketing, to figure out what it is that people want to hear. But, social put it all in front of us, in an easy, analyzable way because it's all in print. And really, I think, just presented such new opportunity to get close to the customer. That fascinated me, and I kind of made a pivot over to customer experience. It helped that the role I was in at the time at Discover, that I was in charge of the website and digital experience, so I was getting into the nitty gritty about how to create experiences that therefore became marketable. And, I started at the same time, with sort of a side hustle of blogging, and podcasting. I eventually wrote a book about social customer care. It was only recently, really 2019, when I decided that the side hustle was killing me because it was taking up so much time on top of a full-time job, but it was the thing that I really loved doing. I decided to finally go out on my own. The feedback I got on LinkedIn, most people said, "It's about time. Can't believe it took you this long." Now I am speaking, and consulting on marketing a customer experience, and I love it. What I'm telling people is, it's a lot more fun working for the Dan, than it was working for the man. Why More Marketers Don't Focus on Customer Experience Kathleen: That's a great line. I am going to quote that. I have so many questions for you, but I want to start with one in particular because this came up once before on this podcast, and it's something I think a lot about which is, to what degree do you think organizationally we undermine ourselves as businesses by setting the goals, or the KPI's, or the yard stick for success for marketing, and have it be so focused on that top of the funnel, that traffic generation, that lead generation? I mean, most of the marketers I see, at least on paper, are measured by the degree to which they can generate qualified leads for the company. There's no incentive system in place in 99% of the cases that I'm aware of, to do anything on the customer end. I feel like there's a structural problem that prevents us from tackling this topic, and I'm so curious to know what you think about that, and if you see that as well? Dan: Yeah, I definitely agree. It's almost like we're putting the cart before the horse, right? If you don't have a great product or service, then really no amount of marketing is going to work in the long run. It might get people to buy your product to service, but then they're going to be dissatisfied with it, and they're going to return it, or they're going to tell their friends that it's terrible, or what have you. You can put tons and tons of marketing dollars behind it, but you have to have that basic, you know, you have to fulfill the basic need of a product or service that people want and are going to enjoy. I think also, you have to have a customer experience that people also want and enjoy. That's the added piece that now today's customer, today's "I have a voice" customer, and today's powerful customer is demanding that they have a great experience as well. You can't just have one without the other. I did an interview with a great guy in my old podcast, this is now a couple of years ago. He runs a series of brewhouses called Scotty's Brewhouse. It's in Indiana, Florida, a couple other states. And, very successful business, his name's Scott Wise. I asked him ... or, he said to me unsolicited, he said, "When people ask me what business I'm in, I tell them I'm in the customer service business." I'm like, "Really? You're a restaurateur, that's an interesting answer." He said, "Dan, I could have the best food in the world at my restaurants, but if I have crappy service I have no customers. No one will come back. If I have good or great food, but amazing service, I'll have a full restaurant every night." He said, "You can't have one without the other, it doesn't work. If I had to choose either one, I would choose a great experience, because if I mess up on somebody's burger but I'm really nice about it and I take care of them, they're still going to come back, right? But, if I have servers that are rude, or slow or whatever, I'm going to lose customers." I think you're right, that we're so focused on that front end. You've read, probably the same stats that I have, about how much money we spend on customer acquisition versus on customer retention, right? Or even just customer engagement. I think that, that ... that, the smart companies are starting to figure out that some of that money should be shifted. Because after all, if we keep more customers then we don't have to be as stressed about bringing on more new ones. Kathleen: It's really interesting to hear you talk about the Scotty's Brewhouse example, I hope I got the name correct. Dan: Yep. Kathleen: Because, it in my head, the echo that I hear when I hear you tell that story is Marcus Sheridan, who I work with at IMPACT. He always says that, "It doesn't matter what company you are, we're all in the same business which is the business of trust." It really doesn't matter what your product is, or your service is. If your customer doesn't trust you, that's like table stakes. The company's with the most trust are the ones that are going to win, and it's almost like customer experience and trust go hand in hand because it's true. These are the universal things that, regardless of what kind of a business we have, what it is we're selling, our fundamental truths about the way people want to spend their money. They want to be able to trust you, they want to have a great experience, and oh by the way, those two things are never ever going to change. They're never going to go out of style, there's no digital trend that's going to make them obsolete. I love that. Dan: Exactly. I'm an unabashed Marcus Sheridan fan. I'm a fan boy. I love Marcus, I love everything he talks about, and he is one of the best speakers I've ever seen. But, you know, what you just said reminds me actually of a story I have not told to other people before. This is a first- Kathleen: Ooh, breaking news. Dan: ... If I could get a drum roll here, yeah. My dad ran a family business for over 20 years. He was in the formal wear business. Those in the United States may recognize Gingiss Formalwear. It's been around for ... it was around for a long time, it's been gone now for a couple of decades. He always used to tell me the same thing that, it doesn't matter what product you're selling. He said, "I never grew up dreaming of selling or renting tuxedos." Right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Because, nobody does, right? But at the same time, if you think about how critical that service was at a point in people's lives, right? They're getting married, they're going to prom, they're having a moment that cannot be ruined. They're placing all their trust- Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... In the company to get everything right. Yeah, I would say absolutely, he was in a business of trust too. This is back in the 80's, in a completely undigital way. One of the things that I also love about what you said is, I believe today that there's no longer such a thing as an offline experience. Now, back in the 80's it was all offline. Today, it sometimes feels like we have offline and online. But, all you have to do is look at the video of a guy being dragged off an airplane to realize that any experience can come online now. When we talk about trust, it's about not just that online experience but also what's happening throughout the customer journey because when you anger, or disappoint, or miss the expectations of a customer, they just have to pull out their phone and take a picture of it, or take a video of it, and share it. Now, you're dealing with many other people who are disappointed. Kathleen: Yeah. Not only can those quote/unquote, "Offline," experiences go online but, the worse or the better they are, the more likely they are to go online. Dan: Absolutely. Kathleen: You don't hear about the "meh" experiences, you hear about the really terrible ones, and the really great ones. Yeah, I mean it's fascinating to me just, I mean you hear a lot about the really terrible ones. People are really incentivized to post when something doesn't go right. It should serve as a really good incentive to make that experience great, because that's your one chance to control that conversation that you mentioned earlier. Dan: For sure. I just want to say because I talk about this a lot when I'm on stage is that, people ... you're absolutely right that people are willing to share both the positive and the negative. One of the things that I try to teach companies is how to create more positive experiences so that you can tilt that sentiment. I came across a great statistic recently that I love from Sitel Group. This was out of their 2018 CEX Index. What they found was that 30% of consumers say after a negative experience, that they would post a negative review online, or on social media. But, almost 50% of consumers say the same thing about a positive experience. Kathleen: Hmm. Dan: Which, means that people are more willing to share positive experiences than negative ones. The problem is, as I'm sure you know as a consumer as well, we don't have very many positive ones. Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: We don't have enough that are so ... On our podcast we like to call them "remarkable experiences," literally worthy of remark. If you think back to the last time that you had an experience with a brand that was so great that you wanted to tell all your friends about it, it just doesn't happen very often. But, if you think back to the last time a brand disappointed you, you could probably come up with something that was more recent. What I love to think about is how as brands, can we create more and more positive experiences to get people talking since they want to talk about, we just have to give them something to talk about. A Real World Example of How Great Customer Experiences Can Make a Lasting Impression Kathleen: Oh, I could agree more. I feel like sometimes the negative and the positive come hand in hand. I think I mentioned to you when we first spoke, I had, when we were talking about great customer experiences. I had one, this was years ago now, but it will always stand out in my memory. Actually it's funny, I've had two from the same company. I'm going to give them a shoutout right now. Both are from UPS. The first was when I used to own an agency, we had a daily UPS pickup that was the lifeline of our business because in addition to marketing services, we sold branded products, swag. We had to ship things, and hit deadlines for clients. So, UPS coming every afternoon was essential, we counted on it. I remember we had a big shipment going out one day and they didn't come, and we called our UPS business rep and he was like, "Oh, it looks like there were some issue in your billing, and so we froze the account." We were like, "Well first of all, wouldn't you call when that happens and not just not show up?" I remember it was a Friday too, so we were like, "Oh my God, this has to get resolved now because we're going to lose two days over the weekend." Long story short, the business rep couldn't solve it. He didn't have enough juice. They were like, "Oh, we'll fix it but it will take 48 hours to reset in the system, and then the truck will start to come back." We were like, "Mm-mm (negative)." I remember I went on Twitter and I tweeted something about how grumpy I was about this, and I got a call ... or, I got a DM first from UPS corporate. They said, "DM us your phone number." I did that. Within 15 minutes I had the head of UPS's social media on the line and he was like, "I'm going to fix this for you now," and within an hour everything was fixed. It went from being a really horrible experience to being an amazing one, which I was happy to sing to the world about. Then funny enough a few years later, we sponsor Midshipmen, so I live near the Naval academy in Annapolis Maryland. We have Midshipmen who come to our house on the weekends and things, they become part of your family. Two of our Mids -- a guy and a girl that had been dating for ages, and we knew he was going to propose to her on this two day visit to Annapolis before they got deployed to Afghanistan -- they were in our house, and I was in on it, on the whole plan. He had it all mapped out, and the ring was like out for delivery, and wasn't coming in time. We had a great relationship with our UPS driver and so my husband called him on his cellphone and was like, "Here's what's happening." The ring was being delivered by somebody else, but our driver went out of his way to go find the other driver, get the ring, deliver it to our house so that he could propose in time before they had to deploy. Kathleen: I mean- Dan: That's amazing. Kathleen: ... Talk about just unbelievable stories, both from the same company funny enough. But, the first one really made me think like, just how often sometimes those incredible experiences can come out of what might have been a really terrible one. Why Negative Reviews and Complaints Are Actually a Good Thing Dan: I love that, and I mean I don't know if you were intentionally teeing me up here, but that's basically what my book is about, right? Is that- Kathleen: Yep. Dan: ... Being responsive on social media is so critical, especially to the people that are complaining because you have an opportunity to make things right. Click to tweet I always say that people who complain, complain because they care. The ones who don't care have already left for your competition. They've already switched providers, and they don't care whether you fix it or not. But, people who have a legitimate complaint, I'm not talking about trolls here who are swearing. Kathleen: Yeah, or like looking for a free gift certificate to a restaurant. Dan: Yeah. I mean, people that have a legitimate complaint want you to fix it, that's why they're letting you know. They care enough to let you know, and I think that certainly when we started off, companies were afraid of complaints, which I thought was a big mistake because complaints also give you great insight into what you're not doing right, into where you're missing customer expectations. You might think that some piece of your experience is working just swimmingly, but you’re not sure your customers think that and here they are giving you this free feedback. To me, that's incredibly valuable. Yeah, tons of stories of companies that have started off with an angry customer, and turned them into an advocate. I've had it happen at all three of the Fortune 300 companies I worked for, and it's always nice to see because it kind of proves the value of being there for your customer through thick and thin. Kathleen: Yeah, and I know I've read over the years a couple of different times that there was data to support this. You can probably even cite the stat, if I had to guess. But, I've read that like companies that have no bad reviews are, people don't perceive as being as trustworthy as companies that have some bad reviews. I think it had to do with Yelp or something, and that the relationship capital you build by having a problem and then solving it well, is so much greater than the relationship capital that you build by never having problems in the first place. Which, is counterintuitive, but- Dan: For sure. It's for sure. I was thrilled when I got my first three star review on my book on Amazon, because they had all been five until then. It's not believable, right? Kathleen: ... Yeah. Dan: There's no perfect product. The person that gave me a three star review gave me, I thought very valuable feedback about what he liked and didn't like about the book. I of course responded on Amazon, because I practice what I preach. Yeah, that to me, that adds so much credibility. Then also, I wasn't offended, right? I mean, if my book didn't land perfectly for him, I'm sorry about that but I also very much value the feedback of why it didn't. Because, then when I write my next book I'll be thinking about that, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: I think that as companies are ... it's almost like you have to put the ego aside a little bit to be willing to hear what can be tough feedback. It's just like in the business world when we have our year end review with our boss, right? A year end review that says, "Hey Kathleen, you're the best, you're awesome, you're terrific, keep doing what you're doing. Here's a two percent raise," doesn't give you much, right? Because, you don't know, there's nothing for you to go, there's no action items. But, a review that says, "Here's three things you're doing really well Kathleen, and here's three things I want you to work on in the next year," is so much more valuable because how often do you get that feedback from somebody? Where somebody's willing to be honest with you and say, "You know Kathleen, if you could just work on these three things, I think your career could go so much higher." I mean to me, that kind of feedback is a gift, and it's in a gift in the corporate world as well because sometimes we can't see through our own rose colored glasses, right? We all think our own product, and service, and experience is fantastic, and it's very difficult to see otherwise especially because you get things like ... I remember when I first joined Discover, I had the option of getting an employee credit card. I intentionally did not choose that option, because I didn't want to be treated like an employee when I called customer service. I wanted to be treated like a regular customer. Because, I mean imagine when the CEO of Discover calls customer service -- they probably roll out the red carpet for him, right? He's not getting a legit experience, and I really wanted that, to see it from the customer's perspective which I thought was so much more valuable. Kathleen: Well, I couldn't agree with you more about your point about feedback. I always think you need to be suspicious of the people that never have anything constructive, or even negative to say. You don't want to, in life or in business, surround yourself only with a bunch of yes men. It's not healthy, and it's not real. I really appreciate you adding that to the discussion, because it is so important. Building a Customer Experience Strategy: Where To Begin Kathleen: We talked a little bit about the why, this is so critical. The audience listening to this podcast is usually marketers. Can you talk a little bit about from a marketing standpoint, if somebody hasn't really considered customer experience as part of their strategy, where do they start? How do you define that? Is that just managing the conversation on social, or is it more wholistic? What are the elements to taking a marketing approach to customer experience? Dan: Yeah, I mean I think that it's a couple of things. First of all, as consumers we often don't like being marketed to. Let's start there, and be honest with ourselves, right? Is that, when we're scrolling through our Facebook feed, we're not excited when an ad pops up. No matter really who it's from, occasionally maybe it's from a Starbucks, or a Coke-A-Cola, or some brand that we really, really love, we're okay with it. But, for the most part, it's interruptive. If you start, and this is where I'm going back to what I said about sort of putting your ego aside. When I ran Discover's website I used to remind my team, "Look, nobody wakes up in the morning wanting to go to a credit card rep website. Zero people do that, right? So we've got to make that experience as quick, and painless, and easy as possible." I think with marketing it's the same thing. You have to understand where you fit into the world of your customer. Now, how can you make your marketing an experience? Which, is one of the things that I really love. I would suggest the place to start is with language. I think that so many companies are using language that frankly, most consumers either don't understand, or can't connect with. There was a recent study done by a company called Visible Thread that looked at the top 50 banks in the US, and actually scored their marketing on a readability score. Kathleen: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dan: They calibrate the readability score based on famous books. They looked at everything from Moby Dick, which is a very hard to read book, to Harry Potter, which is a pretty easy to read book. Then they ranked banks marketing on this same score. What they found is that what you want on this 100 point scale is, you want to hit at least 50 which is an eighth grade reading level, which is basically the average reading level of the American consumer. You want to hit a 50. The top 10 banks in the US hit something like a 51, and everybody else was far below that which means that they're speaking in a language that literally their customers don't understand and can't comprehend. I saw the same thing in the healthcare industry. There was a really interesting study that interviewed 2,500 Americans and said, "Do you know the definitions of the following four words, deductible, co-payment, co-insurance, and out of pocket?" Kathleen: I'm getting a headache just thinking about those words right now. Dan: I know you are, I know you are. Well, three quarters of Americans said they knew the definitions, but then the researchers said, "Okay, prove it and give us the definitions." I'll cut to the chase, only four percent of Americans could define all four of those words. Yet, every major healthcare company uses those words in the quote/unquote, "Explanation," of benefits. Which, I laugh at because it's neither explanatory nor beneficial. Kathleen: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dan: But, so that's where I would start. I think there are lots of cool examples of what I like to call, I use the word "witty" as being where I think you want to aim. It's not about being humorous, because I may tell a joke that I think is funny and you may find offensive, so I'm very careful about humor. But, I think witty is a good place to be. Examples of Brands Nailing Customer Experience With Witty Copy Dan: Let me give you a couple examples with witty. There's a wonderful sign in Manhattan for a retailer, and people who have walked the streets of Manhattan have maybe seen this sign before. It says, in big bold letters, it says, "We are probably the lowest priced in the city." I love that, right? I don't even know what this company sells and I already love this company, right? Because, I know that their honest- Kathleen: Yeah. I was going to say, it's pretty honest. Dan: ... I know ... Yep, I know they're honest. I know they have a sense of humor, right? Already, so they're fun. You've told me so much about this business, and I don't even know what they sell. That's how powerful words can be in marketing. There's a sign I love to show that is at the bottom of a huge skyscraper in Chicago and it's got some arrows and it says, "Almost there ... Please use other entrance." I looked at this and I was like, "You know, that was two words. The almost there, that made this from a sign that was completely unremarkable, to one that made me smile." Because, somebody took the time to add those words, "Almost there," and it was now a fun sign instead of just a tactical sign. I think this can come, this can happen anywhere in marketing. There's a gas station near my house where the big sign outside with the price says, "Unleaded 2.99." Then, where they ... the place where they can put the letters up and write something it says, "Customer service, priceless." Again, think about the expectations that, that gas station has already set. This is going to be the friendly gas station, this is going to be the one that the person inside greets you with a smile, because they believe customer service is priceless. These are very simple, inexpensive, really free ways to change your marketing to create a different experience, and that's where I suggest people start. How To Craft Witty Marketing Copy Kathleen: And, any advice for the marketer who might be listening and thinking, "Ugh. I just don't, I'm not witty. I don't have the talent to think of these things." Are there any tricks, or things that people can do to start getting more in that mindset? Dan: Yeah. I mean, the first is just eliminating the words that are industry jargon, or acronyms, right? I wrote about that bank study because I had seen somebody post on LinkedIn, a bank ad which was an email. It was a subject line. The subject line had seven words in it, and three of the words were acronyms. It's like, I mean come on. That is not ... the post on LinkedIn was a guy quoting his daughter who had received the email and she said, "Is this even English?" That's where I would start, is I would look at the language that you have. Again, if you don't want to be witty, that's okay. But, you can look for industry jargon, you can look for big words and turn them into small words. I'm a prolific writer, I blog all the time. But, I was never real good at the verbal side of the SAT's, so I never thought of myself as having a really large vocabulary. But, as it turns out, I believe it makes my writings more readable because I'm just speaking in normal words. I'm not using big, scientific, or long words to make myself sound smart. I'm just, I'm writing like people talk. Therefore, it's easier to consume, and I think marketers can absolutely do that. I remember my high school teacher used to say, "Read your words out loud-" Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... "And, hear how they sound." You should do that with marketing, right? If you're reading your marketing out loud, you're going to catch things that don't sound right, and you can make them simpler that way. Kathleen: Amen. There have been a few times where I have filled in for the person who heads up our editorial content for our website, and I've had to review draft articles that people have submitted to us. Once or twice I have gotten articles that were nonsensical that literally I was like, "I need to send this back to this person and just tell them to read it out loud to themselves, because I have no idea what they're trying to say. It doesn't make any sense." They would know that if they just took a minute, and like read it, you know? Even if they didn't read it out loud. It's amazing, I think, how often we create content and we don't take the time to even review what it is we've created. I love those tips, and I think that's a great place to start. Eliminating the jargon, almost like writing as though you're talking to a friend, or a family member, what have you. Moving beyond messaging then, what would be kind of the next step for that marketer looking to really take a better approach to customer experience? Why Viral Experiences Are Your Best Marketing Dan: Well, so I'm going to sort of turn your question around, because I believe that you have to ... just as we said before that you have to have a great product or service to market, you have to create the experience first, and then it becomes your marketing, not the other way around. And so, I believe it's about how do you create a, as I said before, a positive experience that people want to share? Then, you have other people doing the marketing for you first of all, which is awesome, right? Because, we all strive for this word-of-mouth marketing, this elusive word-of-mouth marketing. It's not going to be found in a viral video. Any of us that have worked in corporate America have heard a C level executive ask us, "Well, why can't you just create a viral video?" Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Because, that's not how it works. But, what you can do is create a viral experience. You could create an experience that people love so much they want to tell people about it. I think there's a couple things that you have to do in order to create such an experience. One of them is to be really intentional about it. It's to -- as you build the experience -- to think about all of the places that people may be willing to share. We talk about certain meals being Instagram worthy, for example. Well, I believe that the chefs are creating them that way intentionally, right? Kathleen: Yes. Dan: Because, they want people to share them. I'll give you an interesting example here. There's a company called Sip Smith, it's an alcohol company. It's mostly known for its gin. It's a London based gin, and it just recently came to the United States in the last, I don't know, year or two. Or, at least it came to Chicago in the last year. I was at a local Chicago festival and they were doing a tasting. Now, most of the time when you go and get a taste of a wine, or a beer, or an alcoholic beverage of some sort some person hands you a little plastic cup, and you take a sip, and you either like it or you don't. You throw out the cup, and you move on. Sip Smith didn't want to have that kind of experience, so they built an immersive experience where you walk up to this bar, there's a bartender behind it with bottles of Sip Smith Gin. The first thing is, he asks you what kind of tonic that you want. Now, I didn't know I actually had a choice of tonic, so here I'm already learning something, right? Well, there was Mediterranean tonic, and European tonic, and standard tonic, so I choose one of the tonics. He then points me over to a garnish bar. Kathleen: Hmm. Dan: Now, a gin and tonic usually has a lime in it, right? Pretty basic. Well, this garnish bar had about 18 different garnishes. Everything from lemons and lines, to dried strawberries, and peppercorns, and ginger, and rose petals, and all this stuff. You could create your drink, but they didn't stop there. By the way, I did the math in case anybody was wondering. There were over a billion combinations that you could make. Kathleen: That's awesome. Dan: They didn't stop there. The next thing they did is they sent you to a table where you could grab a little miniature card, and name your drink. Right then- Kathleen: That is so cool. Dan: ... They keep it on the card, and they gave you a little tiny clip that you could clip to your cub so that as you're walking around with your beverage, you're advertising the name of your drink to everybody. Of course, what do people do? They clip the name to their cup, they take a picture of it, and they share it on social media. This whole experience was intentional. It was meant to be immersive so that it was meant for you to try their product in a realistic setting, which is not drinking it out of a plastic cup straight, because most people drink gin that way. But, it was immersing you in the way that you, you exactly you, independent, unique you would drink it. Because, I might drink it with European tonic and a lime, and you might drink it with Indian tonic and a strawberry. But, we all can do it our own way. But, it also was intentionally shareable. It was done in a way where once I personalized it with a name of my drink, of course I wanted to take a picture of it and share it with people. That's, that to me is how ... Then, it makes marketing's job that much easier, right? Because, you have everybody else sharing, and talking about your brand. Then, really all marketing has to do is get in the conversation and say, "Hey, thanks for sharing. We love you too. You guys are great." It becomes, it makes marketing's job a whole lot easier. Kathleen: Well, for the record when it comes to gin and tonics, I am a Fever Tree Elderflower Tonic and lime kind of a girl. But, that's amazing. I inexplicably have a craving right now for gin and tonics and it's before noon. Dan: Sorry about that. Kathleen: But, that sounds incredible, it really does. It's not like a very expensive way to engage. If you're already going to be there, you're already going to be offering samples of your product. It's not a huge leap from a budget or an effort standpoint to do what you described. That's a great example. Dan: Yeah. I mean, I'd say the biggest example of all time of shareable word of mouth marketing to me was the share a Coke promotion, right? That had all of the names on the bottles. If you think about that, that was a reasonably sized operational undertaking. Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: But, what I thought was so interesting about it was that it continued to evolve over time. The first time they released the names on the bottles they got a lot of people loving it, and sharing it, and happy. But, then they got people with different names who were unhappy- Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: ... That there name wasn't on there. So, they went back and they created a whole bunch more, several thousand more names were added. Because, once they were doing it, it wasn't hard to add names to it. But, most recently, and I don't know how many people have noticed this. But, most recently they made another change. The names are no longer on the actual label of the product, they're on a sticker that you can peel off of the product and actually share it with the person. Kathleen: That's very cool. Dan: If you think about it, if I got a bottle of Diet Coke that had "Kathleen" on it, if I drank that bottle and then tried to hand it to you, you're not really excited to receive it, right? But, now I can just peel off the sticker and hand you your name, and I think they made it even more shareable. Kathleen: That is so cool, and I have never seen a Kathleen coke. If you find one and you're listening, send it to me. Dan: Challenge accepted. How To Create Viral Customer Experiences Kathleen: Yeah, exactly. That's great. The question in my head is then, if it's really about starting by creating the experience, as a marketer how do you suggest that somebody approach that? Because really, you're talking about getting your tentacles into theoretically, many different parts of the business, you know? You're talking about production, if it's a product, when you talked about Coke. It could be getting involved in sales. There's a lot of crossover there that I think can scare the average marketer. Any advice for how to approach that organizationally so that you get buy in, and you're able to go down that path? Dan: Yeah. What I would suggest is that you make sure that you're the customer of your own product, and service and, that you are an engaged customer so that you're experiencing the whole journey. A great example from Discover, we had a feature on the card that allowed you to turn the card on and off if you felt like you had lost the card in the sofa cushions. That was a feature that had been there for a long time, but it took our CMO to literally realize that, that feature existed and say, "Wow, this is really cool. We should be telling people about this." Then the marketers came in and did their thing, and named it, "Freeze It." It became a huge television campaign, and it became sort of one of the lead features of the card. Since then, most of Discover's competitors have copied that feature. But, all it took was somebody observing something that was already there about the experience that was remarkable, but that nobody was talking about. I think that's where I would start as a marketer is say, "Let me just be a customer here, and find the places that I really need, and the things that make us different and better. Then, let's figure out how to talk about those things. Often times those things already exist. I think in other places, you can as a marketer, also be willing to let other people be marketers. I don't mean tactical, sending out the emails marketers. What I mean is, you can let the lawyers be marketers, right? There's some great examples of legal disclosure that's actually fun to read, right? I mean, think about that for a minute. That's mind blowing. Legal disclosure that's fun to read. There's a company out of Malaysia called Iflix, it's like an Asian version of Netflix. In that typical disclosure that you see in emails where it says like, "If you're the unintended recipient, you must give us your first child, and delete the message," and whatever. Well, their disclosure starts off with the words, "Covering our butts." Now, if covering our butts doesn't get you to want to read that disclosure I don't know what does. I read it, and you know what? The whole disclosure is hilarious, and you can tell that a lawyer and a marketer, it's like on a joke. "A lawyer and a marketer walk into a bar." Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: It's like, the two of them sat down together and they said, "Okay, the lawyer said, 'This is what you must say.' Then the marketer said, 'Okay. I'm going to take what I must say, and I'm going to add to it, and make it fun, and make it engage-able.'" I think that's where marketers have to be more willing to sort of take the time to say either, "Here are the places that are already remarkable, let's talk about it." Or, "Here are the places that are completely unremarkable that we can make remarkable in a simple way." Kathleen: I love that example you just gave, and I wish I could remember the name of the company (And I did! It's called Squaremouth). But, sometime in the last few months I heard about a company, and I think it was a big company, that halfway through their disclosures, or their privacy statement, or one of those horrible documents that nobody reads. Halfway through it they added, "If you have read this far, you can win X." I want to say the first 10 people that responded got a free trip somewhere, because they just literally read that far into it, and found this random paragraph. It was like, "Congratulations." Dan: That's amazing. Kathleen: "Nobody reads this, but because you did we're sending you to Hawaii." Dan: Well, so that's a great story. I immediately ask the question, if we know nobody reads this, then why are we doing it? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: You know? It's like- Kathleen: To cover our butt. Dan: I remember ... Yeah, to cover our butts. Yeah, but I remember a number of times in corporate America, the marketers often looked at the lawyers as sort of the other side of the table, right? The guys that were stopping us from doing what we really wanted to do. I always reminded my team that the lawyers were there to keep us out of jail, so we want them to do their jobs really well. But, it doesn't mean that we have to produce any content, and disclosures are content, right? I mean, disclosures are there because what's the legal reason they're there? It's to cover our butts, but it's also because we want to inform customers about certain limitations to our product, or in the pharmacy world, certain side effects or whatever it is. This is important information. When you think about it from that perspective and you put on your marketers hat you say, "Okay, so what if I actually want people to read the disclosures?" Holy cow, that's different, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: Today what we do is we say, "Well, what's the smallest font size we can put the disclosures in so that hopefully people will read past them?" Kathleen: No one will notice them. Dan: Right? I say, don't do that. Ask yourself, what if the disclosures were in 30 point font? What would you say, and how could you say it in a way that actually gets the message across in a way that's beneficial to your customer? Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: Oh, so interesting. I feel like I could sit here and just pick your brain all day long. Unfortunately, we don't have all day. I have a couple questions for you that I want to make sure I ask before we wrap. The first is, this is the Inbound Success Podcast, a lot of the listeners here are interested in inbound marketing. I want to kind of bring inbound marketing together with customer experience, because that's really the whole point of this conversation. When you think about the world of brands, companies, marketers out there, who do you think right now is really nailing it when it comes to marrying the two, an inbound marketing approach that also delivers a phenomenal customer experience? Dan: Right now I am obsessed with a company that, in full disclosure, I am a customer of, called Imperfect Produce. It's a company based in San Francisco, and it was founded by a couple of guys who were noticing on their college campus that a ton of food in the cafeteria was going to waste. They created this company, what they found after investigating was that we actually have a pretty big food problem in the United States, which is that tons, and tons, and tons of food on farms, perfectly usable produce, gets thrown into the landfill. Mostly because it doesn't look pretty, it's nice enough for supermarkets. They started a company where they ship out boxes in a subscription service, of what they call ugly fruit. Often times, it's not ugly at all. It's just surplus, or it's a little bit big. Sometimes you get like a comically large cucumber, or you'll get really small pears, or something like that. But, they're not disgusting. In fact, they're wonderful inside. What I love about what they're doing is first of all, they're using the witty part. In their marketing there's a billboard in Chicago that says, "We'll help you get dates," and it's got pictures of actual, of the fruit, and with smiles on there, kind of animated smiles. They're very witty about that. In their social media they use food puns, and stuff like that. They're very brand on. When you get their box, you literally want to look at all sides of the box, including the bottom of the box which has a really fun message on it. Again, this costs nothing, right? They're already printing on the box, so just print everywhere and make it so that it's usable. But, the part they're doing on the experience that I think is awesome, is they are actually tracking for me, my individual contribution of how much produce I have saved from the landfill, how much water I have saved, and how many pounds of carbon dioxide that I've kept out of the atmosphere. I'm just going to brag for a moment. In the last year I've saved 385 pounds of diverted produce, over 15,000 gallons of water, and 1,300 pounds of carbon dioxide. I love that, because you're creating again, this immersive experience. You're marketing to me, right? Kathleen: Yeah. Dan: That's marketing. You're telling me, "Hey Dan, you're doing a great job. Pat on the back. By the way, stay with us and have those numbers go up." Right? I want to share that with people and say, "Holy cow, I've saved 385 pounds. That's so cool." I just think they've -- from beginning to end, from prospecting, to communicating with their existing customers -- I think they're doing such a great job of being on message, consistent. Obviously they provide a great product, and that's important. But, this continuous reminder of you're not just doing it because the food tastes good, you're doing it because you care about the societal impact as well. I think that is a perfect combo for me. Kathleen: I love that example, and I'll make sure to give them a big shout out in the show notes. If you want to check them out, head to the show notes and there will be a link in there. Separate question, the world of marketing is changing so quickly, social media is changing literally every day. I feel like it's a total fire hose if you're a marketer, to try and keep up. Personally, how do you stay on top of all of this? What are your go-to sources to make sure that you're up to date on everything that's going on? Dan: Well, I would say that partially due to the success of your organization and others like Marcus talking about it, I think there's so many sources today that it's almost impossible to keep up. I've actually moved towards using aggregator services like Apple News or Flipboard, because I find that so much easier than remembering to go to my 10 favorite websites every day to find news. I tend to search by keyword and topic, versus depending on any specific source every day. I don't know if that's disappointing to inbound marketers, it might be. But I think, again, it's a result of the fact that so many companies are so focused on inbound marketing now, and are doing a good job of it. We have more great content out there than ever before. But, to me what I'm finding is, I can find it in all sorts of places, so why limit myself to a single couple, one or two sources? Kathleen: That's so true. There is so much information out there, and I think you bring up a good point for marketers which is that, yes, you need to be creating really great, helpful content, and have it on your website. But, don't overlook the fact that not everybody's going to come to your website to find it, and look at these other channels. You mentioned Flipboard, I'm a big fan of Flipboard. Look at these other channels and see how you can get your content there too. My feeling has always been, as long as people are consuming your content, it really doesn't matter where they're doing it. Dan: Absolutely. How to Connect With Dan Kathleen: Love that. Well Dan, thank you. Again, so much good stuff. I love all the stories, and the concrete examples of companies doing it well. If somebody wants to dig deeper into this, what's the best way for them to learn more, maybe read some more of these stories, maybe get your book? Dan: Well, I write for Forbes regularly, and this is what I focus on. In fact, Forbes requires you to create a sentence, one sentence that describes exactly what you do on Forbes. My sentence is, "I write about how customer experience can be your best marketing." If you head over to Forbes and do a search for my name, you can see all of the, including some of the examples that I just shared with you. But, people can also find me on my own website which is DanGingiss.com. It's G-I-N-G-I-S-S. You can find information about my book there. I also host a podcast called Experience This, where we tell stories all the time about companies creating remarkable experiences. And, of course because I practice what I preach, if you get in touch with me on Twitter @DGingiss I will respond and get back with you. Kathleen: I love it. All those links will be in the show notes, so head over there if you want to check those out. Thank you again Dan, it's been so much fun. I've learned a lot today. You Know What To Do Next... Dan: Well, thank you Kathleen, it's been a lot of fun for me as well. Kathleen: If you're listening and you learned something new or liked what you heard, as always please consider giving the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. If you know somebody whose doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork, because they could be my next guest. Thanks for listening.

Do you ever feel like there’s a barrier between what you know about how to have a good relationship, and what you actually do? How do you take what we know about the science of relationships, combine it with the wisdom of our hearts and our quest for deeper meaning, and integrate it into something practical? Today we’re going to get practical, integrated, and Integral with a return visit from Keith Witt, whose new book Loving Completely: A Five Star Practice for Creating Great Relationships was just released. Keith Witt has conducted more than 55,000 (!!) therapy sessions, and is also often featured on Jeff Salzman’s The Daily Evolver podcast. He is truly gifted at taking the “big picture” and making it useful for a daily lives. Loving Completely is a manual for how to not only set a higher standard for what’s possible in your relationship, but you also get simple steps that get you there. Also, please check out our first two episodes with Keith Witt - Episode 80: Bring Your Shadow into the Light and Episode 13: Resolve Conflict and Create Intimacy through Attunement. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode has two great sponsors, each with a special offer for you. Casper.com provides ultra-comfy mattresses and other products to help you get a restful night’s sleep. You can try out a Casper mattress for 100 nights - and if you’re not completely satisfied return it for a full refund. As a Relationship Alive listener, they are offering you $50 OFF select mattresses - terms and conditions apply. Just visit Casper.com/alive and use the coupon code “ALIVE” at checkout. RxBar.com makes a whole food protein bar that’s super-tasty - Chloe and I almost always have these with us to help us stay nourished on the go. They’re healthy, easy to digest, and have simple ingredients with no added sugar - plus they’re gluten/dairy/soy-free. You can get 25% OFF your first order by visiting RxBar.com/alive and using the coupon code “ALIVE” at checkout. Resources: Check out Keith Witt’s website Read Keith Witt’s new book: Loving Completely: A Five Star Practice for Creating Great Relationships Check out Keith Witt’s other books as well! FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict… Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) www.neilsattin.com/completely Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Keith Witt. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. We're trying to change culture with this show and I am so appreciative as always of your being here with me to evolve what is actually possible for us in terms of our relationships, and we know more about how to relate with other people than we've ever known before. We know more about the science. We know more about our spirit and how that factors in. We know more about the power of mindfulness. We know more about how our hearts interact with other hearts. It's all taking shape in a way that's very unique, and what we are trying to do here is to not only talk about it, but make it so practical for you so that you can put this stuff into use in your relationship. And so you can talk to other people and say, "Hey, like you're having a hard time, you know, check out this episode on Relationship Alive where you will get your problem solved or see a light at the end of this dark tunnel," that, let's face it, sometimes we're in a dark tunnel in our relationship, it's part of what happens. Neil Sattin: So, I'm overjoyed today to have a returning guest, someone who has been on the show twice, and he's here today to talk about and celebrate really the release of his latest book called Loving Completely. I'm talking about Dr. Keith Witt, who you may know through his appearances on The Daily Evolver or you may have heard him here on Relationship Alive. He was here in Episode 80 where we were talking about shadow and he was also here way back in Episode 13 talking about Attunement and how important that is. So he is back on the show. And we will have a detailed transcript of this episode. If you want to get that, just visit neilsattin.com/completely as in Loving Completely or you can as always text the word Passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions and we'll send you a link where you can download this transcript, and all our other transcripts and show guides. Neil Sattin: So today, we're going to talk about what it means to love completely, and how that's maybe different than your standard kind of relationship and why it actually helps you deepen and deepen what's possible for you in partnership. I think that's all I have to say for the moment. Keith Witt, it is such a treat as always to have you back here on Relationship Alive. Keith Witt: Great to be with you, Neil. Neil Sattin: So, let's just start there. Loving completely. Now, I know that some of the book is based on a course that you did in the integral world called Loving Completely. Why loving completely? What was the inspiration for you for that title versus just like, How to Have a Kickass Relationship? [chuckle] Keith Witt: That's not a bad title. [chuckle] I've been doing therapy and writing and teaching for 44 years and I have studied dozens of brilliant people. And most people, most researchers, their understanding comes from how they came to establish mastery in their areas of psychotherapy or of understanding. Esther Perel, for instance, worked a lot with couples where people were unfaithful, and so she is oriented according to how sexuality ebbs and flows and manifests and affects relationships in her work. Stan Tatkin came from attachment theory and interpersonal neurobiology and his system is heavily oriented in that direction. John Gottman is a pure social scientist. I mean, the way that he found his wife was he went on 50 dates in 60 days and she was the outlier whom he married. He did it like a science experiment. And so his approach is social science. He uses social science to find what works and doesn't work and so on. Keith Witt: So, everybody comes from their orientation and they're all right. But in Integral Psychology, we say that everybody gets to be right, but nobody gets to be right all the time. And so, most of us who work with couples and individuals have found that people are wildly unique, and people have different languages and understandings that help them love better. And so I was interested in an orienting system, where you could start with basic principles and practices and they could lead you in the direction that you were most open to in terms of helping you grow and transform in your ability to be intimate with the different parts of yourself and be effectively intimate with other people and especially with your chosen partner in a long-term lover relationship. Keith Witt: And so that motivated me. That was a challenge. How do you get oriented in that fashion? And so out of that came the Loving Completely Course and then out of that course came, I wanted to expand the ideas and present a deeper dive into a lot of the constructs and so I wrote the Loving Completely book, which is gonna come out soon, and that's what oriented me in terms of and inspired me in terms of writing this book. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I like that picture of completeness, not only in terms of what it inspires me to think about and how I conduct my relationship, the process of my relationship, but also the willingness to look across the spectrum of what's available to help you that you don't have to be confined just because so and so says that their thing works 85% of the time. If it doesn't work for you, you're not screwed like there are other options for you that might be effective for you. And so there's that completeness of like, "Oh, the whole world is available for me to actually help me get this. Get this right." Keith Witt: Yes, and we live in an age where there's a cornucopia of great knowledge available to us and especially around intimacy and around relationships. And so let me explain. I'm gonna talk mostly about a committed intimate relationship like a marriage, a long-term love affair, and so on, though these principles apply to lots of relationships, parental relationships, sibling relationship, friend relationships, and so on. But a relationship of marriage is basically a friendship, a love affair, a capacity to notice and repair injuries and ruptures, and a mutual commitment to each other's evolution. If those four components are attended to on a daily basis, couples tend to do well. If one of those lapses in some fashion, suffering occurs and suffering in relationship tends to spiral into separation. And this is one of the reasons why half the marriages end in divorce. Keith Witt: And so that's a great picture of a good relationship, but how do we do that? How do we establish that? And just like any area of mastery, what you do is you pick a goal, you get ignited. I wanna have great relationships. You find data and information and master coaching in the world, and then you break it up into chunks and you do focus practice on those chunks and with a growth mindset of effort and progress is what matters. We're not trying to get anywhere, we're just trying to have effort and progress. You gradually can establish mastery in this area of loving, loving another person, helping another person love you and... Go on. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And so a couple of things are coming up for me right now. One is, we're talking here, we're on a show where we are focused about, we're coming from a growth mindset. And I can't tell you how many times I read something or I have this conversation with you or someone like you and I have that light bulb moment of like, "Oh right, this is how I've been seeing it, and I could be open to a different perspective here and that actually might serve me a lot better." So let's just start with maybe the hardest question which a lot of people who listen to the show are gonna be asking which is like, "Alright, you said growth mindset. And now, I just know that this ain't happening because my partner, like that's the problem, they don't have a growth mindset, and they're fixed and they're shut down. And I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying." I know, in the 65,000 or more sessions you've done with people, you've come up against this with couples and I'm curious to know how you help inspire both people in a moment like this. Keith Witt: A human super power is our ability to receive caring influence. That is a super power. And it's more difficult than it sounds. Receiving caring influence means that you allow yourself to change how you think and what you do in response to someone else trying to help. Now, when people get threatened, when people feel insecure, when they feel unsafe, their nervous systems get more rigid. Your slower thinking frontal cortex gets inhibited and your faster thinking brainstem takes charge. And one of the ways to take charge is it resists receiving influence. And so if you have a partner that is resisting receiving influence, it probably means that in a particular level they feel unsafe. Keith Witt: And so when someone comes in or a couple comes in, part of my job is to help that first person feel safe. And generally the way that I help people feel safe is through compassionate understanding. I know that at the core of everyone, there is a little interface between them and spirit. Patricia Albere in the evolutionary collective calls that the origin point, in the traditions she called that out man's soul, that kind of thing. That's how I identify people. And so, my job is to connect with that spot in them and then help them feel understood by me. And as we go into that understanding, we find a place where they feel threatened, where they resist influence. And the place where you resist influence and you feel threatened is also the place where you're yearning for something, you're yearning for love, you're yearning for security, you're yearning for passion, you're yearning to be known deeply. Keith Witt: And as I help someone feel safe and as I help them understand their yearning, we can begin to open up a little bit to how those yearnings can be met in their relationship. They can be met by their partner, and I can help their partner help this other person feel safe. By the very act of coming to a therapist, people have gone to an environment where they've acknowledged, "We can't help each other feel safe enough to change, we need somebody else to provide a little bit more safety." And so that's a central part of what therapists do. Now, does that work all the time? Nothing works all the time. Does it work a lot? Yeah, it does. And if your partner seems impenetrable, then what you wanna do is you wanna say, "Well, look, let's get some help. Let's find somebody that you trust and let's get them to help us love each other better. Let's get them to help us be more connected." Keith Witt: And you take a stand for that. And if your partner can't do it, you go get help and then that person helps you encourage your partner to get help. And so that's how it goes. Usually that ends up with both people getting into therapy, but not always. And frankly, it's just a bad sign. If somebody is having problems and refuses therapy, that predicts marital dissolution pretty reliably in a lot of cases, and that's just the way it works. If you take a rigid position, particularly in the 21st century with your partner, and refuse to work on things that are disturbing to them, that will separate you and those separations get worse, they don't get better. So those are the ruptures and repairs that are so important. They need to be repaired. And they're repaired when we're making that condition better, when we're working at loving each other better. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And this, I think, is so important because it's tempting, especially as you read a lot of, let's just say, self-help books about relationship which you might be doing if there are some issues going on or you might be doing even if you're like, "I just wanna know how to do this better," and kudos to you if that's what you're doing. Keith's book is great for that. It can be tempting to think like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna go into this with my partner like a therapist would. Like now I'm armed with all this new knowledge and I'm gonna bring it into my relationship." Neil Sattin: And to some level, I think that is helpful, but what I'm hearing from you that I think is so key for people to get is that the real gem that happens in a good therapy, in a good therapeutic setting, is creating that safety and being seen without judgment, being seen with compassion, and from that everything else can grow. I would think that it's rare that someone comes in, and you're not just instructing them, right? I mean I sure don't. In my coaching practice, we're not saying, "You're doing this wrong, you're doing relationship wrong, so let me just tell you how to do it right, and then you're all set, you're then free to go." Keith Witt: Yeah. Well, that would be great [chuckle] if it worked. You know, when I wrote a book on Integral Psychotherapy called Waking Up and in that I said what an integral psychotherapist does is relate, teach, inspire, confront, interpret, and direct and relating is first. If someone is open to learning a new perspective, they're open to receiving influence, in other words they get influenced to change what they think and do. A lot of therapy is just getting 80% of therapy is getting to the point where someone feels safe enough to be willing to do that. And, yes, we don't do that with our partners. I have two kids, they're grown 33 and 30, and wife, and I don't give them any input unless they ask specifically for it. And the reason why I've done that is because I realized as our family was developing that I didn't have a contract with them, like I did with my clients, and that actually interfered with our relationship if I offered input that wasn't requested or welcomed. Keith Witt: And so I'm way more conservative when it comes to my opinions or my observations with my own family. Why? Because I'm not there primarily to enlighten them or to help them, I'm there to support the intersubjectivity of our relationships. I'm there to support our love for each other. And supporting our love for each other means having this relationship on a psychological spiritual level, we're experiencing ourselves as having equal power, equal credibility, equal say in the important aspects of our life around money, sex, parenting, time, that kind of stuff. And then all that stuff needs to be negotiated in a dialectic. And the dialectic is two people looking for deeper truth, respecting each other, open to each other, as influence, and acknowledging their individual rights. And that's called a growth hierarchy. Keith Witt: It's a power hierarchy but it doesn't look like a power hierarchy because when people are going back and forth in that environment, you're not noticing how one person has a little more credibility, a little more power than the other person does because there's a flow back and forth in the integral cosmology, that's called the second tier. That's a particular kind of relating. Now, when people get threatened, they go into dominator hierarchies. You stop receiving influence and you're trying to bully the other person or convince the other person or submit even to the other person. That dominator hierarchy can get something done, but it contaminates a relationship. And an awful lot of work, whether therapist know it or not, when they're working with couples is noticing that shift in the dominator hierarchies, and then interrupting it and encouraging couples to go back into growth hierarchies where they're looking for deeper truth, more open to influence, being respectful, allowing each other individual rights. Keith Witt: And just that, just paying attention. And that can transform your whole relational universe. Particularly, you can transform a universe relating to other people because once you start noticing those things you see growth hierarchies and dominator hierarchies everywhere. And if you have a moral sense of standing for growth hierarchies, that means that whenever you're around you wanna generate them. And if there's a dominator hierarchy happening, you wanna start working to shift that into a growth hierarchy. Nowhere is that more important than in your end of the relationship. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and this is something that comes up a lot actually in our Facebook group and just because we're here. I'm curious of your perspective on this. A lot of my listeners have actually been married and gotten divorced, and now they're working on their next big love, let's say. And so, of course, that introduces all kinds of other dynamics with former partners, their new partners, and that's a situation that's ripe for power struggles and dominator hierarchies to emerge. So, I'm curious like if you're a growth-oriented person and you're just getting hammered by a dominator, what's a good pathway through to navigate through that, that you might offer someone? Keith Witt: Well, first of all, that is the... Particularly for educated people in this country, generally they go through at least two major intimate relationships, sometimes more. I was a hippie back in the '60s and '70s, so I had a three-year relationship where we didn't get married but essentially it was the first marriage. So that's very common. And when there's children and in-laws, you are bringing other people in and other responsibilities. Stan Tatkin says, calls it The Rule of Thirds. And he makes a point that I agree with. Yes, there's a lot of added complexity that comes when people have a second or third serious relationship, but that is simplified if you recognize the primacy of the intimate bond. The primacy, there's a reason that they call it a primary relationship, and that primary relationship is we wanna maintain this container in integrity, we wanna have this container be as clean and as pure and as beautiful as possible, and that means our friendship, our love affair, our capacity to heal injuries, and our commitment to mutual evolution comes first. And then everything else gets organized around that. Keith Witt: What that does is it gets you oriented in terms of other demands, say there's an ex-spouse that is aggressive, this happens sometimes. Or punitive, people get angry after a separation, and often separations are expensive, and they're difficult, and people are more egocentric and distressed cells will come out and then they don't have much contact with each other, which makes it easier to objectify each other and see each other in negative black and white terms. Well, that's not good for anybody. It's particularly not good for children. Children of the divorce who have parents who are acrimonious with each other do worse. They have more symptoms and they have more problems. And so you don't wanna encourage that. You wanna discourage that. How do you do that? Keith Witt: Well, there's two of general ways of dealing with other people. There's what you and I are doing now, which is relating. Relating is we're just telling our truth, we're respecting each other, we got individual rights, and we're both open to caring influence. You tell me something that's a better idea than something I got. I'll change my idea and change how I think in what I do. That's relating and relating is a superior way of being. But say, somebody can't relate. Well, then you handle them. And how do you handle them? You handle them so that they can't successfully dominate in a dominator hierarchy and you make it easier for them to relate. For instance, you set boundaries. So this happens all the time, when one ex-spouse wants special privileges and comes to feel entitled to it because the other person just tries to say yes rather than thinks in a larger sense about what's gonna make this a more coherent relationship. Keith Witt: So then what you do is you start setting boundaries around whatever the dissolution agreement was. You don't say yes unnecessarily. And if someone is acting in a disrespectful fashion, you disengage. You set a boundary. Okay. So over time, this influences the other person to be more respectful. It's very much like parenting a child. And it's similar because when people are in defensive states, basically they've regressed to child ego states. And so you don't have to be... You can be respectful, but you need to be firm. I'm respectful of my four-year-old who doesn't wanna get in the car and go to the dentist, but I am firm. You're gonna have to get in the car and go to the dentist and that's all there's to it. So, respectfully, get in the car, we're going to the dentist. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: You spoke in Loving Completely. And I wanna dive more into the meat of the matter here momentarily. You spoke about your commitment to more and more interacting with the world from a place of loving kindness and compassion. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And even then, you mentioned that there are some relationships and connections that you've had to let go of. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And I'm curious for you, what does that barometer like in terms of you knowing like, "Okay, I guess I've done all I can do here," versus like, "You know what? I'm gonna keep trying. I have faith in this particular container that it will ultimately yield to the power of a growth mindset and relating. Keith Witt: Well, first of all, it of course depends on the nature of the relationship. You know, loving-kindness is a practice. And we can all do it now because it's a wonderful practice to get yourself into a place where you are available to engage in a mature and healthy activity, and here's how you do it. You imagine some other person. So I'm imagining you right now and then I am reaching out from my heart, to your heart, and in my mind, I'm saying to myself from my heart to your heart, "May you be safe. May you be happy. May you be healthy. May you have an easeful life." And as I do that, I am changing my state. Now, if I do that with... If you're my lover and I do that when we are in conflict, my defensive state, because I'm in, we are in conflict, all communication is complimentary, we're probably both in defensive states that are self-amplifying which is by defensive states we are so dangerous as couples. What I'm doing is I am now shifting into another state of consciousness where instead of allowing my nervous system to relate to you as an unsafe person, that I am objectifying to a certain extent. Keith Witt: Now, I'm relating to you as someone I care about and that shifts my state. Now, as I do that, if we're around each other and you can see into my eyes, or hear my voice, your state begins to shift out of defensive state into a state of healthy response to the present moment. And so loving-kindness meditation is a wonderful practice to learn how to do when you're stressed because it shifts your state into an area where you have access to your frontal lobes, you have access to your deep wisdom and you're regulating your defensive states into your more mature and more powerful states of conscious awareness and compassionate understanding. Keith Witt: And I encourage everybody who's listening to do it at this moment. Imagine somebody, you can imagine me if you want, I'd take all the loving-kindness that the... [chuckle] people could give, your heart to that person's heart. And in your mind, say, "May you be safe. May you be happy. May you be healthy. May you have an easeful life." And see how it feels. Interestingly, when people did this meditation, they had anti-inflammatory genes activated in their bodies and antiviral genes activated in their bodies that this meditation made their immune systems more robust, by shifting the myelinazation patterns of their genetic expression. That's how powerful this is. Neil Sattin: Well, well, and... Yeah, I'm just struck by that like we talk about our anger being inflamed and how interesting that anti-inflammatory actions take place when we go into a place of loving-kindness like that. Keith Witt: It's amazing. Neil Sattin: And I'm thinking too about my own experience with Chloe and we're doing really well together. Not that we haven't had our challenges and despite doing really, really well together when something happens and one of us goes to that defensive state and we both end up there even... I guess what I'm saying is, even in the best of relationships, and you talk about this with Becky as well, it can be such a challenge, such an effort to even utter within, oh, you know, much less saying it out loud to your partner, if you happen to be in their presence. But within like, "May you be safe, may you be loved." I think if you're thinking back to a time when you had an argument with your partner, you'll get what I'm talking about that, it's like the last thing you wanna do. Keith Witt: That's right. Neil Sattin: And yet it has so much power if you can somehow do it. Keith Witt: Yeah. What helps me with this is understanding that those defensive states that you enter when you're mad at each other, those were evolutionary milestones for the human species. And most of our brain is designed to relate with other people and there's a lot of good evidence that one of the reasons that brain size expanded about two million, three million years ago is because the level of complexity in human groups went up, and we needed to have more brain power to be able to relate with each other. And in those primitive tribes, there were social organizations just like there are in primate groups and that meant when there was a problem that couldn't be resolved cooperatively people went into dominance displays because the dominance hierarchies are what maintained the social fabric. Keith Witt: And what they would do, they were programmed to do genetically is to raise their emotional intensity to intimidate the other person into taking an inferior place or the dominance hierarchy or to have you submit in a way that would happen before physical violence could take place, which would maintain the integrity of the social structure and protect people from hurting each other because evolutionarily speaking, the biggest threat to humans, for the last couple of million years, have been other humans. Keith Witt: Now, what modern consciousness is brought to bear is way more powerful ways of dealing with conflict, way more sophisticated ways. And so when those defensive states are activated if I know that if I can engage in collaborative, two men in problem solving with this person, what that does is it opens up a possibility for this moment to enhance our personal evolution, this moment to make our love deeper, to support our friendship and our love affair. If I know that, if I can just have the faintest memory of that, then I can start working at soothing myself and soothing you and inviting you into that process to create that container of that dialectic. That container of mutual respect and individual rights and looking for a deeper truth and receiving influence. And when we do that a hundred times or a thousand times and discover how well it works, how it creates these miracles of consciousness, then what we've done is we've taken those primitive impulses and we've included and transcended them in the more sophisticated influences. Keith Witt: And you know in our last talk, I talked about how what we're actually doing is growing our shadow selves. We're growing our unconscious. Our unconscious becomes more complex and it regulates outside of our awareness so that it gets easier and easier to reach for these better states. Now, every once in a while, we get triggered usually from a trauma memory and bam, here comes the defensive state, it happens in 60 milliseconds. We have amplified our numb emotions, distorted perspective, destructive impulses, and diminish capacities for empathy and self-reflection like that. But if you can learn to self-observe that, what you end up doing is instead of trusting all that stuff, trusting that distorted perspective, trusting those destructive impulses, going along with that lack of self-reflection and empathy and say, "No, no, I'm actually in a disadvantage state now I need to reach for something that is more powerful," like compassionate understanding that provides the impetus interiorly to do that for yourself. And then when you are doing that for yourself, you're non-verbally and verbally encouraging your partner to do the same. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Keith Witt: And this... Neil Sattin: May I offer just a quick example of that? Keith Witt: Sure. Neil Sattin: So just the other night, I was with Chloe and we were talking about something, she was going to cover for me for something, and she made a comment like, "This is actually the last thing I wanna do, it sounds horrible to me, but I'm gonna do it but it sounds horrible." And I immediately went into like, she's being negative about this thing and I don't even want you to do it anyway, if it's gonna be horrible for you. So we started spiraling down this place and it was kinda late at night, so we weren't in our... There's not a lot of will power left at the... Keith Witt: That's right. Oh no. Neil Sattin: At the end of the day to actually steer yourself back. But fortunately I'd been reading your book and so I turned to her and I said, "Help me, help me help you, what I'm hearing you say that this is horrible. And it sounds like hell and I don't know what you need from me right now, what I can see is that I'm just going into this place where I am polarizing or where I somehow wanna change you or change your experience, but I clearly that's not working 'cause you're just getting more and more angry at me, and I'm getting more angry at you. Like what do you need?" And you know, to prove your point, Keith and this was just so hilarious to me in the moment, she looked at me and her eyes were big and wide, and she just said, "I need your compassion. I need you to understand that, yes, of course, I'm gonna do this for you, I love you, and it's not... It wouldn't be my first choice to do this thing and I just need you to hear me and to acknowledge me and to be compassionate." Neil Sattin: So that was the first thing that was like, "Oh okay, right." And so, of course, I'm thinking like I know this and of course I know this, like I've... 'cause we've done this a million times, but here we were in this space of conflict. And so then I started thinking, like, "Well, I know that the key right now is to be compassionate and I've even done it before, but right now, I can't for some reason, I really can't." And so I asked myself like, "Why, why can't I be compassionate right now?" And I had this huge realization about my own earlier experiences with being confronted with, I had an idea about something and just to keep it somewhat vague like let's say a family member would have shit on my idea or say like, "No Like that. We're not gonna do that." Neil Sattin: And so for me, I had to develop a pretty strong defense to that kind of what I perceived as negative energy, or a negative attack, and so my choice was never to meet that with compassion. I didn't... No one instructed me on how to do that as a kid, so I was just like kind of shoring myself up and figuring like, "Okay, how do I turn a negative into a positive, how do I... " It's like I had Martin Seligman in my back pocket like... Keith Witt: There you go. Neil Sattin: And which was good for me, in some level, but in this situation with Chloe, there was no like saying, "Hey, let's turn those lemons into lemonade." Like that wasn't what she needed in that moment. And as soon as I realized that and I shared that with her, "Oh wow, I'm realizing that you need compassion, and I can't do it and it's because I just have this defense against being... Like I've never learned how to be compassionate, what I've learned how to do is to try to look on the bright side or try to make things not as bad. And for us, it was this huge moment of understanding that just softened everything and next thing you knew, we were singing to each other and making peace with each other instead of making war. Keith Witt: Well, I just love that story. You know what? When a couple comes in with the story like that, there's part of me that goes, "Mm-hmm. My work here is done." [laughter] You notice what you did, you went into vulnerability as power which you can do with her because she is a sophisticated enough partner to see that and to be moved by it and then you went into the real issue. The real issue is us, our container. And to go there, I have to go essentially into my trauma history to find out why I had this reaction, that's more rigid than I'm used to. It's more amplified than I'm used to. And yes, that it always comes from previous learning, often it comes from a family of origin. And when you understand that the problem right now was a solution, it's often a brilliant solution 40 years ago, but now it's not adequate because I'm in a relationship where I can actually go into deeper love from this place, which was not available then, I'd rather go into deeper love. Keith Witt: And that's what you guys did and you were focusing on the real issue, which is we need to... There is a rupture in our container, in our intersubjective container, we need to heal that. And we know that we've healed it when we feel that sense of loving connection. When you're repairing, yes, you wanna validate the other person and, yes, the other person wants to feel understood. And you wanna feel understood. And you wanna take a little bit of action to solve the problem. Those are all important parts of repair. Yeah, you wanna accept that that's not gonna solve the whole problem but it will solve a piece of it but at the very end of it, there needs to be loving connection. If you don't have that loving connection, you haven't repaired it yet. And you only know that when you both feel it at the same time and everybody who has done that, which is almost all of us, knows what that feels like. And that needs to be the standard. That is always the standard to get back to love. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. There's this little song. I don't know who the source of it is but Chloe learned it recently and it's become our latest practice at the end of conflict. Not that conflict's happening all the time, but just as a reminder and a recognition of having gotten back to love. And can I sing it? Can I share? Keith Witt: Oh please, I was gonna ask you to sing it. Sing it. Neil Sattin: So it goes like this. "I behold you beautiful one. I behold you child of the Earth and sun. Let my love wash over you. Let my love watch over you." That's it. Keith Witt: That's beautiful. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So for us that... And actually I find myself when I'm still stewing I can sing that to her in my mind. And that also helps like, "Okay, I'm coming back now." I can remember that the whole reason we're here is because we love each other and because our love is ever deepening and we've had that experience. So that also helps me come back to the table and get back to love with her. Keith Witt: When you sing that song inside you, when you're with her, you're doing loving-kindness meditation. Neil Sattin: Yes. Keith Witt: That's another form of loving-kindness meditation. Neil Sattin: Yes, exactly. So, Keith, let's shift gears just a little bit because I wanna give you a chance to paint the picture. You created a beautiful scaffolding around which Loving Completely is built and you call it The Five Star Practice. And there are these five questions that people can ask themselves about themselves and about their partner to help direct their attention to the elements that create an amazing thriving relationship. And you talk about how it came up in a conversation with your kids around like what to look for in a good partner and how that has become this lens through which you can... These questions have become a lens through which you can look at any relationship and see what's going well, what's not, where you might need to adjust your habits. And so could we go through those five star questions? Keith Witt: Sure. Neil Sattin: So people get a sense of what we're talking about. Keith Witt: Yes. The genesis of this was in a conversation with my two teenage kids in the kitchen, of them asking, How do I choose somebody? And anybody who's done therapy realizes that at certain points in your life you open up and something comes through, you become a channel. And so those five questions came out. And as a scientist, I'm always a little uncomfortable with stuff like that because, yes, we can see it as an unconscious download, but it always feels like you're connected to something larger. And the interesting thing about that is that they really haven't changed that much over the years. It's been 15 years or so. And they've been cross-validated again, and again, and again, and again with neuroscience and social science and so on. And so I'll tell you the five questions but I'll tell you the reason for the questions and I'll tell you the foundation of the questions. Keith Witt: The foundation is compassionate self and other observation. Loving-kindness meditation does that, attunement, paying attention with acceptance and caring intent to what you're sensing, feeling, thinking, judging, and wanting. Paying attention with acceptance and caring intent, what your partner might be sensing, feeling, thinking, judging, and wanting. That's the foundation, compassionate self and other observation. Now, if you can establish that, and however way you do it, if you ask yourself these questions, you're basically, when you ask yourself a question, you're opening up to your unconscious. Keith Witt: So the questions are first, is there erotic polarity between me and this other person? Is there a spark between their feminine and my masculine? Because when we are looking for a partner, or when we were maintaining a relationship, part of that is the love affair. That love affair is a big deal, and that love affair is based on a spark between two poles, between the masculine in one person and the feminine in the other. Now we have energetic polarities between ourselves and everything and everybody. You have an energetic polarity when you look at a sunset, or when you're telling your daughter good night, I love you. But you have a certain kind of erotic polarity, has a sexual feel, between you as a masculine or feminine person and another person as a masculine and feminine person, and we're adjusting those all the time. Keith Witt: And so that's one question, Is there a spark of erotic polarity between me and this other person? The second question is, Does this person maintain their physical and psychological health? Doesn't mean they have to be super healthy, it just means they're responsible for their physical and psychological health, and if there's a problem they'll take care of it. Third question is, If I'm in a relationship with this person or if I am and there's conflict, would they be able and willing to do what it takes to get back to love? We've been talking about repair, you and I, and that's a central skill in intimate relationships. A fourth question is, Would this person show up appropriately for a child or a family member? Appropriately is not co-dependently, appropriately is there's a lot of things that are appropriate, but will they show up in a healthy fashion for a child or a family member? And the fifth one is, Does this person have something larger than themselves, something sacred that they're committed to? And do they feel a sense of respect, even admiration, or would they feel that for what's sacred to me? Keith Witt: So those are a lot of questions but if you pay attention to those five dimensions about other people, after a while they become like new sense organs and you just notice these things. You'll pull up to somebody... You're sitting down next to somebody in a restaurant, you look over and you go, "I bet that person would be a good parent." Or you see somebody, you go, "Hmm, I feel a spark of erotic polarity with this person." Or you look at that person, you go, "I don't think that person maintains their physical health very well." Or they do. They become things that you notice like people's clothes and eye color. And if you notice them about other people, it makes it easier to notice them about yourself. And these are not absolute questions. In relationships, we go moment to moment to moment to moment. And so they're dimensions that keep shifting. I can be engaged in a healthy behavior in one moment, and then all of a sudden I'm reaching for the doughnut and I'm engaging in an unhealthy behavior. And now what am I gonna do about that? Keith Witt: Am I gonna adjust towards health or am I going to eat the doughnut then eat another doughnut? If I do that as a habit, then I'm not maintaining my physical health, for instance. And in relationships, we're always kind of adjusting... When I was talking earlier about being in growth power hierarchies, and then adjusting from dominator hierarchies to growth hierarchies, that's attending on a moment to moment, and these five dimensions are ways of adjusting. Am I showing up appropriately for my son? Am I expressing admiration and respect for what my wife finds deeply meaningful? And if I'm evaluating a partner, does this person do these things? And if the answer to even one of these is no, then there's gonna be problems. That doesn't mean you don't get in a relationship, but what it does mean is you have a conversation about it. Keith Witt: And if you can ask yourself these questions about yourself and other people, what that does is it opens you up to have these be continua that you can discuss, they make them talkaboutable in relationship. And one of the big problems that couples have is they have one set of agreements on top that they usually hear in their marriage vows, and a whole different set of agreements below the surface that never get discussed until a problem comes up. You know, a great one is, I promise to be faithful for you. That's a public agreement. And then, the private one, unless I have an opportunity to have great sex with somebody else and I have this conviction that you'll never find out about it. Neil Sattin: [chuckle] Right. Keith Witt: Yeah. Well. If that agreement, if that private agreement is examined by me and discussed with you, I'm less vulnerable to have that happen. Number one predictor of affairs is opportunity and people have an opportunity and they're not prepared because these things have not been talkaboutable with another person. That's one of the reasons I have two or three chapters on affairs and what to do about affairs in Loving Completely. Even if you never had an affair or if your partner has never had an affair, it's useful to understand the dynamics of affairs because those dynamics affect everybody, and if we're aware of those dynamics, awareness regulates. And so being more woken up and more aware helps prepare us. Now, this is my bias, my bias is I like to understand everything, that's why I like Integral Studies. Integral Theory is a meta-theory that has a lot of theories inside it. Keith Witt: And other people don't particularly like to grow in that fashion. But if there's one approach that speaks to you around any of these, okay, you can just dive into that approach. But you don't dive into the approach unless you realize it's something that needs attention. And asking yourself these questions about yourself and your partner and having them be modes of discourse between you and your partner, if some problem does happen in intersubjectivity, if there is a problem in your friendship, your love affair, your ability to receive influence or support of each other's personal evolution and collective evolution, it's more likely to come out and now you have a language to discuss it and to resolve it, and you have a growth mindset to make it better. And you have an orientation, we wanna turn this into deeper love and compassionate understanding of each other. And that's what creates the great relationships. Neil Sattin: Right. I love hearing someone saying, "Oh, I just started seeing this person and we decided to start going to therapy together so that we were getting support." Or, "I just got together... " Actually I just had this happen with someone who said, "I just started this relationship... " And they had actually purchased the course that Chloe and I put together called Thriving intimacy. Keith Witt: Great. Neil Sattin: For a previous relationship, and they said, "We're starting off doing the course together." And I love hearing that because not only are they skill building, but yeah, they're creating that common dialogue of common vocabulary, a way to talk about things. And I think one of the biggest challenges is especially around those things that are scary like someone for instance saying, "I don't know if I have what it takes to be faithful." Wow, what a scary conversation to have with your partner. So any framework that you have that gives you the ability to talk about that and to keep each other safe in that conversation is so powerful and important for helping you strengthen rather than repeatingly shying away from those kinds of topics. Keith Witt: Yes. And it's hard to talk about difficult things. You get easily threatened. And those defensive states show up. And if you're not aware, if you can't see those defensive states, then you tend to have those downward spirals that you talked about. But if you're aware of them, and you adjust back into those dialectics, those states of healthy response in the ways we've been discussing, then you can sustain the conversations. People, if they have a bad time, will tend to avoid the conversation. There's one study that showed if a guy initiated sex with his partner and she said no once, there was a certain number of guys that never initiated again. That one negative experience was enough to close down that conversation. Neil Sattin: Wow. Keith Witt: That's really a bad thing in intimacy. You want your intimacy to be marked by more and more things being talkaboutable, not less and less, not fewer and fewer things. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I love that. Talkaboutable. I think I'm gonna start using that. That... Keith Witt: There you go. Neil Sattin: Phrase. Yeah, it's a good one. Keith Witt: My gift to you. Neil Sattin: Thank you, thank you. One last thing, and we could talk about this forever. Obviously, I think every time you've been on the show we've spoken for quite a while and there's so much to digest here, and I do encourage you to, if you haven't heard the first two episodes that Keith and I did together, definitely go check them out. Episode 13, Episode 80. And there's so much in your book. I'm really excited for it to be out because it encapsulates so much. And as you mentioned, there are a couple of chapters on affairs. As I read through it, I was like holy mackerel. There's a couple of chapters on just about everything. Which isn't to say that it's this long slog of a read, you're actually a very entertaining and engaging writer, which I really appreciate. Keith Witt: Thank you. Neil Sattin: But there's a lot here for you to get that different growth oriented integrally informed perspective on all these different facets of relationship. What I'm curious about, from your perspective, Keith, is this is something that we've been touching on. And we touched on it in the dimension of... And I even had my own confession here. Yeah, I know I'm supposed to get compassionate right now, but I can't fucking do it. [chuckle] There's so much that we are learning about how to have better relationships and yet it requires us to change what we habitually do. It requires us to not just hear it and be like, "Yeah, that's awesome." And maybe to not even just tell our partner about it, but it requires us to actually shift the way that we behave and to follow through on that over and over again, especially because sometimes the initial shift doesn't yield the results that we are hoping for. Neil Sattin: So it's like, you gotta stick with it. You talk in the book about mastery, and that initial like you learn a lot and then you have this plateau and it takes a lot of effort to get through that plateau to the place where you have another growth spike. So I'm curious, if I'm listening to the show and saying, "Alright, this stuff sounds great, it sounds really great. In fact, it's amazing." What do I do to remember it tomorrow so that I actually can put this thing into practice tomorrow? Keith Witt: First of all, do the loving-kindness meditation a lot. The more irritated I am with somebody, the more of a positive impact on me the loving-kindness meditation has. And so that's kind of the first place I go when I get pissed off at somebody and I gotta tell you, I've been doing it quite a lot the last year and a half in that state. And the other thing is to ask those five questions, ask them all the time, not just with your partner but with everybody. Ask... Notice them in yourself. Am I... How am I doing with these five questions? And just to get information. Just to have... Do it from a perspective of compassionate understanding. I wanna understand, and by asking those questions your unconscious will give you answers. And as that happens, you're strengthening that perception, that perceptual capacity to notice these things and to be interested in these things and to be able to discuss these things. Keith Witt: Now, why is this super important? None of us exist independent of everybody else. So we have our history and we have all the cultures that we were in, embedded in our personalities and in our relationships. An American culture has, over the last hundred years, has gradually been waking up. Psychotherapy and psychology has influenced it to some extent. And in the 21st century, more and more psychotherapists are recognizing that psychotherapy is not primarily about identifying psychopathology and treating it like an infection. Psychotherapy is about supporting people's development, relationally, individually, it's about supporting people's personal evolution, supporting people being healthy and happy, and having coherent lives and growing. Keith Witt: And then along the way, there's blocks and problems that are natural functions of being human beings. And that those are difficult. The human nervous system, once it establishes a defensive pattern, doesn't want to give it up. That pattern has to be included and transcended in a more complex pattern and that requires conscious effort on our part. And ideally, these things would be taught from birth onward, but they're not. So what we do is we start whenever we start and learn things and do our best to implement them. And receiving influence from carrying other people is a super power as I said in the beginning. And particularly from our partner. Now hostile influence is not caring influence. If somebody wants to dominate me, and I'm influenced to submit, that doesn't do us any good relationally, okay? Keith Witt: But someone influencing me when I'm being pissed off, inviting me into a growth hierarchy with them, inviting me into mutual understanding, and if I can receive that influence and do it, then we've taken our relationship at that moment to a greater level of complexity. Like you and Chloe did in the example that you gave. Okay, we wanna do that, we wanna get better at that throughout our lifetime, and we want to teach our children how to do it. And with our partner, we wanna help our partner do it and generally insist on partners who are willing to grow with us. They don't have to be as deep as we are in any developmental line, but if they're willing to grow in any of the significant lines of development, the psychosocial, the sexual, the moral line, and so on, we can continue to get more loving and more complex and human development goes in the direction of more compassion, more deeper understanding, deeper consciousness. Keith Witt: And with couples, it goes to having a more and more special intersubjectivity. And that intersubjectivity is beautiful and powerful and really the most powerful and delicate relationship that's ever existed is a modern marriage where people can maintain this container, this friendship and love affair and repair of injuries and support each other's evolution. It's the developmental driver. As you begin to do that with someone, you value it, you get a little bit protective of it. It's easier to not let outside influences screw it up and it's easier to adjust when you have primitive incursions from your trauma history or from your early learning. Neil Sattin: I have a question. How do you... Can you give me an example of this is the moment to exercise my power to receive caring influence? And I know I sort of offered one with Chloe, but I'm curious how would that... When does that typically arise for a couple so that they're like, "Oh this is the perfect time. Caring influence is available for me. Let me receive." How would I identify that. Keith Witt: Great example. You're having a conversation with your partner. I've had this happen with Becky many times. She'll say something. I don't know. She'll make a comment about taking care of somebody. She errs on the side of co-dependence occasionally. And I'll go, "Cheese." Just like that. Really? You're gonna take care of that person? Now you can hear the contempt in my voice, right? Now at that point, if I'm looking at her, I see a wave of pain go across her face. And she'll... These days, she'll say, "Geez, that was kind of a nasty tone." Now, 40 years ago, I would have said, "Well, yeah, yeah, well, you're thinking of doing a really stupid thing. That's why I used a nasty tone." Okay, well, I learned from bitter experience that that really wasn't a very good response to that. That was a stupid response 'cause it just made things worse. Keith Witt: So what I'll do is go, "Yeah, she's right." And I'll go, "I'm sorry. I know if I think it's a bad idea I use the dismissive tone, and I apologize. I am worried that you're gonna do something that will hurt you, that might not be appropriate to do, and so I got contemptuous, I apologize." I received influence. I changed what I thought and how I did. Neil Sattin: Got it. Keith Witt: Now she, on the other hand, was not caught up in the fact that I used a contemptuous tone 30 seconds earlier. She could have been. She could have said, "Well, you said that. And used that nasty tone. Screw you." "Well, I'm sorry I used a nasty tone." "It's too late." People will say that, it's too late. Well, it needs to not be too late. If your partner is doing their best to shift. And so all Becky will do is go, "Thanks, I appreciate it, and I'll do my best to not be codependent with this person." She'll receive influence from me then. Okay? It's is as simple as that. If you just do it on the level of tones. Is my tone communicating respect and care? If it's not, I'm sorry. By definition, I'm sorry. It's not like, "Oh yeah, I'm sorry, unless you deserve it." Keith Witt: No, nobody deserves a contemptuous tone. I'm a martial artist. I studied karate and lots of other martial arts for decades. You know, the only time that you do violence to another person is in a street fight, and then you do it respectfully. The other person really could care less whether you're being respectful when you're breaking their arm, but you know that you're doing it respectfully. Every other situation, setting boundaries, we talked about earlier, telling somebody you need to stop doing that 'cause that's hurting. All of that can be done respectfully. That's the standard. And once we embrace that standard, which is basically a nonviolent standard, it's not a passive standard, it's a nonviolent standard. It organizes us whenever we have a little bit of violence of tone or deed or thought or so on, to say, "Yeah, that was violent, I apologize." And that... Noticing that in itself, and then making that adjustment changes everything. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, and following on the question before I'm listening and I'm saying, "Okay, I want, I need to remember to do that tomorrow, I need to remember to do that tomorrow." Like on this core level of recognizing, okay, I have a habit of not doing that and I realize we probably don't have time right now to go into a whole conversation about how to change habits, but what would be the first step that someone could take to ensure that, okay, I'm not gonna just do tomorrow what I habitually do. I'm gonna maintain my awareness of some other options that exist for me. Keith Witt: Almost any contemplative practice helps. There's a real interesting study that was done on psychotherapists. Psychotherapists who did contemplative practice, which is any kind of meditation that focused on compassionate inner awareness, they had higher empathy scores. But when they stopped doing their practice, their empathy scores went down. Neil Sattin: Wow. Keith Witt: So having some mindful practice, and those five questions if you're asking them about yourself is a mindful practice. Paying attention with acceptance and caring intent, what you're feeling, thinking, judging, wanting, sensing, is a mindfulness practice. Doing that mindfulness practice and being able to recognize when you shift into violence, when you shift into diminishing another person. Or when you're feeling that sense of attunement where the sky is the limit. You and I are going back and forth in that intersubjectivity that we all love so much, that seekers love so much with other seekers, where we're looking for deeper truth together and both of us are kind of alert to what's gonna emerge between us. There's a palpable difference between those two moods of discourse. Once that becomes visible to you, it becomes way easier to regulate it. And what is visible to you as a couple? Now you've changed. That's a developmental milestone when that's visible for a couple. Keith Witt: And they both feel a sense of responsibility to maintain the positive intersubjectivity, and to make adjustments with the negative intersubjectivity. So there's the answer, attunement, contemplative practice, and noticing the difference between those two states. And recognizing it's my responsibility to adjust from the negative state to the positive state. Just like you did with Chloe. I have a problem. What's my responsibility? My responsibility with her now is to lead with my vulnerability. I really don't know what to do. You're upset. I'm kind of conflicted. I don't know what to do. That vulnerable response was the most powerful response you could give in that moment. It invited her to understand and to offer her own vulnerability and out of that you guys came to a greater level of complexity with each other. Neil Sattin: Perfect, yeah. Well, Keith, thank you so much as always for being here with us to chat about relationships and your experience combined with all the research you've done. I really enjoy our ability to enter that highly attuned intersubjective space together and hopefully it's enjoyable for you listening as well 'cause you can tell. I think we both get kind of excited about it. Keith Witt: Yeah. It's really fun. It's really fun talking with you, Neil. Neil Sattin: Awesome. Keith Witt: Just gotta say, this is really... This is really a good time. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Good, awesome. Well, then, we know we'll have another opportunity for sure, in the future. In the meantime, if you are interested in finding out more about Keith's work, do check out his new book, Coming Out, Loving Completely. He has many other books that are all great that I recommend for sure. Keith, what's your website? What's the best way for people to find out more about what's happening with you? Keith Witt: Just go on my website, drkeithwitt.com. There's lots of free lectures and lots of blogs. If you sign up, which is free, you get a free copy of my book, Attuned Family, and I'll send you free content from some of the classes that I teach, or the lectures that I've done. And there's also lectures for sale and classes for sale on my website. So, yeah, go to my website, check it out. Neil Sattin: Awesome. And... Keith Witt: Take something for you. Neil Sattin: And we will have, as I mentioned at the beginning, a detailed transcript available for you if you visit neilsattin.com/completely, as in Loving Completely or text the word PASSION to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. Keith Witt, such a pleasure to have you back here and thanks so much for all of your wisdom and knowledge today. Keith Witt: Thank you for having me.

What's going on guys? Hey, been just flying a million miles a minute, which is always standard, so everything is normal for me anyway. It's been a while since I've taken any of your questions and tossed them on here. I've got a question here from Steve Peck. Thank you much, Steve. First of all, great name. Second of all, I love the question, so I thought I'd drop it in right here. Steve Peck: Hey Steve. This is Steve Peck, and I have a question. How do you pick the MLM to get involved with? Thanks. Steve Larsen: First off, thank you so much, Steve. Appreciate the question. Second of all, if you guys have a question you guys want to drop on here, I love answering questions like this. I think it's a lot of fun. Hey, great, great question. First off, I just want to just come out and tell everyone, look, if you like your MLM, awesome. Please don't get discouraged or think that I'm trying to influence you to do something else. Please also note, I'm not trying to say this kind of stuff to try and recruit people into my own or whatever it is. Anyway, it's fun, I just recruited a really big player yesterday, which was a lot of fun. I want you to know what I look for and why I chose the MLM that I did. I'm still not going to tell you the one that I'm in. I tell people the MLM I'm in when they start applying to join my downline. You know what I mean? Anyway, so here's some things that I look at. First off, let's look at how other industries work. Now, what MLM should I join? First of all, let's ask the question, let's act like we're in a totally different industry. Let's say we're in a brick-and-mortar business, or a different kind of internet business, or whatever. The first thing that I would probably ask is, where is a hot market? Where is a hot market? Meaning, I'm not trying to come up with the idea of what to sell. I'm not trying to come up with an idea of, "Hey, let me go force all these people to try and buy my thing." What I'm doing is I'm looking to see where the hot rabid buyers, the irrational buyers, the buyers that are fanatics, the ones that go nuts and like, "Hey, yes, I've got to ... " Do you know what I mean? It's the irrational. I'm trying to find those places in the market. Then, when I know that there is one, all I do is I ask them what they want and I give them what they ask for. Now, that's a very different approach than what a lot of people do inside of MLM, but it's what I did for my MLM. I started look around, and there's some criteria of things that I was looking for, and I'll walk through that criteria here real quick. First off, what I do is, you've got to understand that most people go choose an MLM because of the product. Now, that's awesome. That's awesome, but first of all, I like to ask the question, "Who's going to be buying it? Are there a lot of them? Are they irrational about the thing that I'm selling?" If it's something that I have to walk around and convince a ton of people on, if it's something I have to walk around and there's a ton of education involved in the selling of the product, I tend to shy away from that kind of MLM. It doesn't matter really what the product is. What matters is that you are selling to rabid buyers. I would take that above any number of massive email marketing list. I would take that over anything, you guys, a rabid group of buyers, a hot, hot, hot market. So, for that reason ... I mean, honestly, I don't really care what the product is a lot of time. I care that it sells. I care that it sells, and I care that people are rabid over it, I mean, irrational. Not just that they like it, not just that when you show the product they're like, "Oh, that's cool," meaning they have to have it, they are going crazy for it, and they cannot stand to be without it. Do you know what I mean? That kind of fanaticism. What I do is I look around, and I look. I chose the MLM I chose for very specific reasons. I'm going to walk you through some of those reasons here, and I'll show you some of my criteria for choosing an MLM. Understand that it's just my own personal own, and yours might be a little bit different. That's fine. This is what I did though when I started looking for an MLM to join back in the day. I started looking around, and I was like, "Okay. First off, how would I treat this if I was not an MLM, if I was inside a big business that ... " Why am I asking that? Because that's my history, that's my past, that's where I came from. I came from a spot of selling other people's products online, and there are patterns to the top sellers. There are patterns to the top buyers. There are patterns all throughout. So, why would I not try to choose an MLM that comes nearest to those patterns and choose that one? Does that make sense? That's what I did, and that's the MLM that I joined. Here's some of the patterns that I looked for. Number one, the product has got to be somewhat high ticket. We're talking MLM here. This is very, very akin to affiliate marketing, meaning I go sell a product for somebody else and I get a little bit of a cut. Now, obviously you make more money if you own the entire product, but I love MLM because all of the fulfillment is done for me. There's a lot of things that are already done for me, that they take care of a lot of the business side of stuff. All I got to go do is to go sell the thing, and that's super easy. That's why I love the MLM game so much. Obviously the possibility of additional sources of revenue, passive income, all that, obviously those are all huge benefits to being an MLM, building up a big team, building up a big network, helping others have success. Those are all big benefits of being in it. The industry that is very, very close ... I don't know if I want to say closest, but in my mind, it kind of is, is the affiliate marketing, the internet affiliate marketing industry meaning they sell other people's products and they get a little bit of a cut. What I wanted to do is I wanted to choose something that was slightly more high ticket, meaning if I'm just selling a $20 thing, what do you get? In my MLM, the starting commission is 20%, which is awesome. That's the starting commission. It goes way higher from that. It's awesome. That's the reason I chose it is because the commissions were higher. If I'm getting paid peanuts, I have a huge issue with that. One of the other things that I chose as I chose an MLM where I was getting ... Let's say I sold a dollar worth of stuff, the full dollar is commissionable. I hate that game where they're like, "Well, only 60% of what you sell is commissionable volume." It's like, "Are you joking? I found you a customer. That's stupid." I chose an MLM that was dollar for dollar commissionable volume, which is huge by the way. That's amazing. Not many MLMs do that. I chose an MLM that does that. I chose an MLM that's a supplement. Why? Because it's recurring. People buy it over and over and over. They stay on it month after month after month after month, meaning it's not just a one and done thing. I might sell something for 120 bucks or whatever price, but they stay on it for at least probably five to seven months. All I've got to do is continue to educate them to help them understand why they should stay on longer than that. That's why they expect follow-up sales. They expect to be buying it frequently. They expect, they expect. I've given the analogy before, it's kind of like me going and buying milk and bread at the store. Those are no-duh buying experiences. You do not have to ... You don't see a salesman standing next to bread and eggs, you don't. Those are no-duh buying experiences. I wanted to choose an MLM that was a no-duh buying experience, like, "Oh, yeah. Obviously, I can see why I would spend money on this very easily." There's not a lot of sales copy that has to be written. There's not tons of sale ... Do you know what I mean? I chose an MLM that was like that. I chose a supplement for that very reason to go through and help people ... Again, please understand, put some thick skin on with this. If you're like, "Stephen, I love my MLM," that's great. Then stay in it. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, this is the criteria that I went through to choose my MLM. After seeing what sells really hard on the internet, seeing what sells really, really easy on there, seeing what's selling, that's why I chose what I did. There was a lot of thought that went into it. This was not like a ... I don't know, "Let me just come up with something, let me just find some ... " I did do that one time. I was like, "Let me just find something." It was funny because I didn't have ... I loved the product, but I just didn't like selling it. Do you know what I mean? It's not just about the product. It isn't. It's not just about ... it's your ability to sell it. It is your ability to market it. One of my favorite quotes ... If you guys have been on the Secret MLM Hacks web class, I go through this and we talk about this. One of my favorite quotes ever is, "There is no relationship between being good and getting paid. There's no relationship between being good and getting paid." You could have the absolute best product and make zero dollars. I'm sure you've experienced that. I have. We all have. You could have the absolute best product and make nothing. You could be the absolute best at your script and make nothing. You could be the absolute best at recruiting people and really make barely nothing. Why? Because there's no relationship between being good and getting paid. As I started looking around at these different MLMs, I started looking around and seeing what was out there currently in the marketplace, it was very important for me to apply the second part of this quote, which was this, "There's no relationship between being good and getting paid. However, there is a huge relationship between being good at marketing and getting paid." So, I went around and I found an MLM. I dug, guys. I looked around. I did not choose an MLM for quite some time because I was looking actively at the MLM that would fit the model that I am in, that I love, that I know I can sell, that I know I can market. There is a massive difference between sales and marketing, a huge one. When I learned the difference between selling and marketing, my wallet got a lot fatter. Again, we go over this a little bit on the web class as well. By the way, if you have not joined us on the web class, I would love to have you guys, by the way. It's at secretmlmhacks.com. There's my soft pitch. There we go. I did it, the dirty. There it is. What we do is we go through, we talk a little bit about the difference between sales and marketing. Sales, that's what I was doing when I was a door-to-door salesman. I would walk up and I would knock on someone's door, and I was face-to-face with them, and I was pitching them, and I was selling them on buying my thing. That's selling. Selling is what happens face-to-face. Marketing is how you get them to your face. Does that make sense? Selling is what happens face-to-face, door-to-door salesman, used car salesman. Marketing is how you get them to your face. That's the area that a lot of MLM does not go through, it does not talk about. I know that that is an upper hand that I have, that my team has, because I teach them how to market not just sell. The script that gets handed off to a lot of downlines, most the time, that is a sales script. The only piece of marketing that is traditionally taught in MLM is, "Give me a list of your contacts." That's why this podcast exists is because I am trying to help show other marketing tactics and strategies in the MLM space how I actually do what I do. Guys, we're about to cross 150 people asking to join my downline with no ad spend. They're applying and asking. That's ridiculous. Tell me another industry where that ... tell me another MLM, tell me another guy that does that. I don't know of one. Maybe there are, but I literally turn people away. It's an actual application process. Why? What I'm looking for is, "Does this person, A, know how to market? B, are they willing to learn how to market?" That's the major thing I'm looking through when I look at their application. If I feel like the answer is no to one of those two, I say no to them. I say, "Sorry, I don't do this in the traditional method." I wanted to be able to say that kind of stuff. So, as far as criteria that I use to pick my MLM, to actually choose my MLM, number one, I was telling you the product needed to be somewhat high ticket. That means I only needed to sell a couple of them to make a really big dent in my wallet each month. It needed to be a recurring ... there's potential for recurring payments, potential for recurring ... Anyway, I think that makes sense. There's potential to be able to spend more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more money. Not just the first sale, beyond the first sale. There's recurring revenue, recurring payments, continuity behind it. So, high ticket, some continuity. For me, that was easy to do that in the supplement space. Some of the things I do are supplement, but we also sell other things besides supplements though. It's really the fascinating MLM. Then the third thing that I looked for is that I wanted to be able to sell and market how I wanted to. I hate when MLMs put restrictions on how you can sell stuff. It's the dumbest thing on the planet. Someone reached out to me again the other day, and they were like, "Well, my MLM won't let me sell how I want to." I was like, "Seriously? Seriously? You love being a part of that?" Again, I'm not making fun of it. If you guys are all about it, that's awesome. Super cool. Great. I will not stand for that though. So, I was like, "You might need to find a different MLM." Sales tactics, especially marketing, sales tactics don't change that often. Marketing tactics change a lot though. Selling on the internet, that's what I do. If I can't find an MLM that will let me do my strength, why would I ever join them? So, I got really passionate about that one topic. I got really passionate about finding an MLM that let me do that. Here's the problem. This is why I get passionate about this. This is why I get so fiery about this topic. Think about this, in the past ... I don't know if you guys have ever tried to sell your product online or ever on a Facebook ad. A lot of MLMs freak out over that. They go nuts, like, "What? No, you can't sell it online." They try to control a lot of stuff. It's like you have to be a certain personality type to sell how they want you to sell. I was like, "I don't really want to sell how my MLM's telling me to sell. You're telling me that I would get kicked out for running a Facebook ad in your favor? That's stupid." I was flat-out like, "That's dumb. That's dumb. I hate that." I was talking to the CEO of this MLM before I ever joined, and I had the very unique experience of doing that before I joined. I said, "I'll you why so many people who sell on the internet will not join an MLM." He goes, "Really? Why?" I said, "Because what ends up happening is, if I go build something like a sales funnel that's supposed to sell supplements ... Let's say I'm going to go sell your supplements, sir. I go sell your supplement on the internet, and I build a sales funnel. I know that this sales funnel is the sales funnel that pulls in 17 grand a day for one of my buddies. I know that this sales funnel is the supplement funnel that turns in $100,000 a day for these companies. You're saying that I can't go build that thing. Why on earth would you not want that kind of sales volume? That's the kind of stuff I do. I love to be able to build that and duplicate it for my team. In a single click, I'll give them the entire sales funnel after I prove that thing out. Then I'll give it to all of them, and they'll have that kind of marketing arm now also rather than just go talk to people on the street or in malls and hotel lobbies." I'm not making fun of that if you're like crazy good at it, but man, things evolve. I said, "Here's the reason why though, I can go build those kinds of thing. I've built those things before. I've built them for many other big people, but I can't take your product and go put it on the internet because I'll get in trouble." He goes, "Here's what's different about my MLM, man, I've got this thing." I won't tell you the name of it, because I don't want you guys to go look it up. He's like, "I got this thing, and it's in writing. I don't care how my MLMers sell." I was like, "Really? You're like the first one I've heard that says that." He's like, "Yeah, I don't care how they sell. As long as they don't drop a certain price point and they're not lying, who cares? Why would I control that?" I was like, "Oh." I think I saw a halo appear above his head, and there was a light in the room, and things around him got all dark, and I was like, "This is the guy." He goes, "I don't care how you sell, just represent it well. Who cares? I don't care if you sell it on the internet. I don't care if you sell it face-to-face. However you want to sell it, you sell it. It's still a commission." I was like, "Oh my gosh, thank you. First of all, breath of fresh air. Second of all ... " Again, I'm not pitching anybody that ... I understand some of you guys will reach out and ask after this. This is the reason, this very specific reason. I was very, very careful on how I chose an MLM and what criteria I used to choose an MLM. I said, "Okay, well here's the other issue, here's the other issue is ... " Steve, thanks for bringing up this question, man, because this brings up some big topics inside the MLM space, some big technical issues in the MLM space that no one's really solved and we're the first ones to do it. I've been really, really proud of it. What I've been doing is, I told him, I said, "Here's the other major reason why a lot of people who know how to sell on the internet will not sell in MLM. They won't join an MLM." He goes, "Okay, I'm listening." I said, "Here's the reason. If I go run a Facebook ad and I have my own webpage up, let's say you guys have a store like you've built something in WordPress." If you have no idea what I'm talking about, that's fine. That's fine. Let's say that somehow though, you're selling your product online. What you would have to do traditionally is after the sale gets sold, after you collect the sale, you'd have to turn back around and go buy it again on your corporate website in that person's name with that person's shipping address with that person's information, which sucks. It's terrible. It means every sale, there is so much touch. There's a lot of high touch that's done. There's so much that you have to do for that individual. It's an awful game. I have buddies that would go and they'd build these sales funnels, and they'd be selling their products online. Then they'd just go take this massive Excel sheet, and they'd either have to go sell it and make this really special agreement with their ... They go take this Excel sheet and they'd have to go make this special agreement with their MLM or whatever, or they'd have to turn around and manually by hand, they'd go in and put in all of those orders in those people's names with their shipping addresses and they'd have to go re-buy it. Well, by that time, you've already paid for credit card processing twice. It cuts down how much money they actually make. Therefore, it really puts a massive damper in why you'd ever, ever do any kind of product sales with an MLM online. I was explaining this to him and he was like, "Huh. How do we fix that?" It was funny, because I was sitting there in the room with him, I was sitting there in the room with him and I had this idea come to my head. I was like, "If we did this one thing," and I'm not going to tell what it is though, I said, "If we can fix this one thing, this one area ... All it would take a little bit of tech stuff on your side at the beginning, but what it would do is it would allow me to sell my product through my own funnels and it would go to you guys. The money would go to you guys. It would just credit my account with the sale, with the commission." We drew this out, and it was this cool plan. I hit my head, and I started drawing and I got in the zone and it was really, really awesome. What ended up happening was, he goes, "Okay. This is cool." I'm really pumped because ... This is me just celebrating a big achievement, guys, because they just came out with the beta of that solution. Now what it means is I can go sell like these other massive supplement funnels, these massive guys I'd go build for. They'd be bringing in millions of dollars. In the past, I couldn't do that kind of thing in an MLM, because I'd have to do this two-step thing. I even knew guys who would hire VAs to buy again the product in that person's name on the corporate website after they got the purchase in their own funnel. Does this make sense? I was like, "This is so stupid, you guys. Why has the MLM Industry not caught up with the fact of what a funnel is, and why does everyone care how it gets sold?" I know some people are not going to like the fact I'm saying that. I totally understand. I know some people are going to be really, really against what I just said. If you know something sells well, why on earth would you hinder that process and you know how it sells well? Here's really the two big issues. When I was choosing my MLM, I wanted to know, first of all, what was already selling in the market. I didn't give a crap about what the product was for a while. I wanted to know what is already selling in the market not including MLM products. What are people ferocious over? Now, let me find an MLM with a product that is nearest to that so I know it sells well. I need to know what is selling and how it's selling. Those are the only two questions that I care about. What is currently selling in the marketplace with rampant buyers, irrational purchasers? Then how is it selling? How are they getting those people in front of them? Is it really just through friends and family? How is everyone else buying it who is not an MLM? Are they doing it through retail? Are they buying offline? If you know what those are, why would you ever hinder that process? I don't know. That's part of the issue. That's what I went through and I talked with about these guys. I was like, "Look, fix this one problem right here, and I have an army of funnel builders who are wanting to sell this thing." Guys, I'm excited. It's the reason I'm so passionate about it. I think we're the first MLM ever in history to do this. We're the first team. My team is the one doing it. I'm the one beta testing it. If this works, I don't care if my team doesn't know how to build funnels, I will build it for them and I give it to them. Now, they have this whole sales arm. Now, I focus heavily on the recruiting side, and now we're also just cranking, killing, just crushing on the product sales side. How exciting is that? It means I'm not walking around selling the product. One more story, one more story real quick. I know this is a long episode, but just bear with me. One more story to illustrate the point. When I was doing door-to-door sales, I was driving down the street and I was looking around. I was in a little bit of a sales slump. I was a good salesman. I was one of the top guys almost every time. Telemarketing, I was one of the leaders on the floor. I had a team behind me that I was training. When I was doing door-to-doors sales, I was very good. I was the number two first year seller. The reason I wasn't number one is because the guy came out two months ahead of me. He had such a ridiculous lead, but I did really well in sales. I was in the middle of a slump though. We're driving out to our areas and we're on the highway. I remember the clear blue-sky day. There was some clouds in the sky. Temperature was warm. It was going to get hot that day. Clear, clear sky, and it was a beautiful day, guys, beautiful day. Mountain all around us, and I was selling pest control. We're driving out to this area, and what I was doing is I was complaining in my head. I was complaining. There's no other way to say it. I was ticked. I was like, "This is stupid." I was like, "Are you kidding me." I was trying to control my emotions, but I wasn't. I was in a little bit of a slump, and I was carrying that emotion with me on the doors and I wasn't doing well. I learned a lot of lessons from that personally. I grew a lot from that personally. As we were driving out, I'm looking up and I'm seeing these billboards on the side of the road. These billboards are on the side of the road, and I had this thought. I will never forget where we were on the road. I will never forget where I was sitting. I will never forget this moment, because it was one the sparks that changed my life and how I approach MLM. I was sitting and I was looking. I wasn't in MLM at the time, and I was looking at these billboards. I looked up at the billboards, and I thought, "Gosh, this is so stupid. I'm waking up every single day as a door-to-door salesman trying to convince people to buy something who were not thinking about buying something today, but people who are calling these billboards are getting laydown sales. People who are calling these billboards are asking to be sold." So, what I did is I started putting these classified on the internet. Have you heard of like Craigslist, things like that? I just started putting our service, our product on Craigslist. I put it on Craigslist, and I started getting all these phone sales, all these laydown sales. I think I've told you guys this story before, but I hope it really hits home with what I'm telling you about how I chose my MLM. I started getting all these phone sales and all these laydown sales, and these were individuals who wanted to be sold, who wanted my product, who wanted more information. I wasn't bugging him and bothering him in the middle of the day. Are you getting a little bit of the ah-ha? What ended up happening is I started realizing, I said, "Wait a second. For every product, most products out there, for pretty much every product, there are people who are already trying to purchase this thing. They just don't know about my product. I'm going to stop walking up to random people in hotel lobbies." I wasn't doing that anyway but, "I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do ... " What I started doing is when ... Yes, the product matters, but what is more important is matching an MLM to whatever is currently exploding in the marketplace, meaning if you're trying to be in the Health Industry and you want to find a health MLM, you go find whatever supplement, or program, or whatever it is has the most rampant, ridiculous purchasers, then choose the MLM off that. If you know how they're buying ... Now you know what they're buying, you've got to figure out how they're buying it now. Are they buying it on the internet? Are they buying it right off of TV ads? I don't know. Go figure that out. Then you match that way. So, I chose my MLM very, very strategically. I said no to a lot of MLMs. They all wanted my stuff. I understand why they wanted it, but I chose, first off ... I was like, "I'm going to do supplements so there's recurring billing. I'm going to do something more high ticket so that there's higher margins for me. I'm going to choose something so the starting commission is 20%. I'm going to choose something that will let me sell online the way that I know how to blow the gates open with funnels." This is the first MLM, and I think I'm the first team, to really be able to do that and integrate directly into a corporate's software so that when we sell stuff ... We're still in the beta testing, but we're doing it. We know clearly where we're going with it. Now what's kind of cool is that when people join my team, what I do is I've got this members area that walks them through a lot of the training, how I would do stuff. Then it walks them through the actual funnel side. It's like, "Hey, if you don't know how to build them, that's okay. Click here. I have a pre-made one for you, and it sells this product in our MLM really well with these kind of ads, with this kind of average cart value typically. Usually, start with this kind of ... " Do you know what I mean? What other MLM gives you that kind of upper hand? I don't know. That's the reason I get so ... I'm very, very proud of the MLM that I'm in. In order to protect the team, find the people who are most serious about it, I'm not just trying to get people who are like, "Oh, Stephen's got all these plans. Therefore, I'll make all this money faster." I'm not looking for get rich quick people. We are trying to get rich quick, make no mistake. Why would you ever try to get rich slowly? I was laughing like, "Is this a get rich quick scheme?" I was like, "Well, hopefully." It's not that I'm a capitalistic pig. Man, why would you do something where you make money slowly? "Don't worry, it's not a get rich quick scheme." It's like, "What? How slowly do you make cash?" That's a stupid saying. What you're trying to say is, is it a scheme? Is it a plot? Is it a Ponzi Scheme? I get that. I understand what people are trying to say with that. So, I vet people out, and that's the reason that I do it. Steve Peck, I know that's a very long response to it, but that's how I chose my MLM is I did not first look at what my MLM's product was. First, I didn't even consider any MLM until I saw what was selling very, very hot in the health space, or wealth space, or relationship space. What is selling super hot, and now with an MLM that comes closest to selling that kind of thing, and do they care how I sell my stuff? That's it. That's how I did it. I know that's kind of out of the box, but that's kind of what secret MLM Hacks is. Anyways, guys. Thanks so much. Hopefully that helped. I know it was kind of a long episode, but I hope that it helped you understand it doesn't matter how cool your product is if no one knows about it. It doesn't matter how cool your product is if there's no one currently buying something even similar in the marketplace. That is some scary crap to go into, because now you have to educate and sell, not just sell. They're already further down the belief path with my product. They already know. We're just selling a better version of it, and I know the best ways to sell it on the internet. That's why we're doing what we are. Guys, thanks so much. Appreciate it. I know it's kind of a long episode, but hopefully you got some stuff from that. Again, I'm not trying to convince you to get out of your MLM or stay in it, whatever. It's your call, your choice to do what you do with this information. That's how I did what I did. That's why I'm doing what I am. It's your call. Do whatever you want to with it, and start asking. That's what I was trying to tell this person a few days ago. They're like, "My MLM won't let me sell stuff on the internet." I was like, "Oh my gosh. Get good at direct response. Get good at selling through mailboxes or something. Are you really going to go door-to-door? What's the preferred method?" Now think of that method that they're trying to teach you at scale. Is that something you can do at scale? Once you know how the thing is selling, there's only three ways to grow a business, guys, only three ways. You can get more customers. You can get customers to pay you more money, or you can get customers to pay you money more frequently. That's it. So, what of those three can you do in your MLM? Yes, Steve, are you passionate about this topic? I'm very passionate about it, because I understand that people feel loyal about their company. Those are the only three ways. If you can't see one of those ways working at scale ... Okay, let's think through it. Number one, get more customers. If they are so butt hurt on how you sell your thing, do you really think you're going to retire off it? Is it really going to help do your house payment? I mean, seriously. Start running some numbers. Figure out what that ... Are we all going to go to hotel lobbies? That's why I get passionate about it, guys. Obviously I am. You're like, "Well, maybe that's not the way I'm going to do it. Maybe I'm just going to get customers to pay me more frequently." Okay, cool. Let's start looking at the margins, start looking at the commission check that you get. Is your MLM giving you dollar per dollar commissionable volume? If not, that's some scary crap. Start running the numbers. I was in my MLM. I recruited those 13 people in my first month. I got a $13 check. 13 bucks, guys. I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's a dollar a person. I don't totally understand what just happened here, but that sucks." So, more customers. Wait, but MLMs traditionally, a lot of them are really butt hurt on how you sell. So, more customers sell more frequently to them getting you to pay more money. Can you do upsales? Can you? Mine will let me. Can you toss your own thing in there? That's when you start looking at ... That's what I'm trying to help you understand. What's the marketing arm, the marketing mechanism? Because they help you with the sales scripts. They help you with that stuff, but not that many people help you get the marketing ironically, which is the area that actually makes you the money. That was a long episode, but I'm passionate about it, guys. That's a very big deal how you choose your MLM. It's a very big deal. I don't actually really even know that much about what my comp plan says. I don't need to. I will. I know that's bad of me. I'll go study it. I'll get to know it really, really well, but frankly it's the marketing not the comp plan. It's the marketing not barely even the product. It's the marketing that will make you the cash and make your wallet fatter. If this was offensive of me saying this kind of stuff, I'm not sorry because it's truth. Please know that where I'm coming from, you've got to see there are better ways to do the game. You've got to understand, let's look at the long haul, what really is going on. Yes, you may love the product. There is an MLM I love buying their product, but I will not be part of the MLM. I love the product. You have to start making those calls and start making those decisions as you understand, "Am I really learning how to market? Am I really learning how to ... " Anyway, it was a long episode, guys. I appreciate it. Thank you, Steve Peck, for asking the question. As soon as I saw the question, I was like, "Oh man. Steve just opened a can." So, that was a 30 minute episode. Hey guys, I hope you're having a good one. Appreciate you guys and appreciate the listens. Go get them. I'm very, very excited for this and love our community here. Hey, thanks for listening. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback for me. Do you have a question you want answered live on the show? Go to secretmlmhacksradio.com to submit your question and download your free MLM Masters Pack.

How you guys doing? How you guys doing? That intro, I love my intro. I think it's awesome, but I want to switch it up here sometimes. It's stuck in my head all the time. Hey, I got up pretty early. I love getting up early. I get up at about 4 o'clock when I can. My perfect day gets me up at 4 o'clock, which means I have to go to bed like 10:00. That's totally fine, but I was getting up, and I built this gym in our third car garage. I love lifting. Lifting is a ton of fun. I love it because it's a competition with myself. I didn't realize it, but my wife also got up at the same time, and she was just on our living room on the other side of the garage door inside the house. I was lifting pretty heavy, and I was trying to beat some records and goals and stuff like that. I was really pushing myself hard, and I was dead lifting. Dead lifting is my favorite lift. After you deadlift like super hard, like stuff kind of gets a little bit hazy in your vision, which is pretty normal. People are known to slightly black out a little bit. Not like in a bad way or anything, but you're like, "Steven, how does that sound? Where's the good way?" I was like yelling, like screaming and stuff. I didn't realize that she was on the other side, and she thought I was hurt. She got all scared and nervous and everything and I was like I was killing a babe. Like what, yeah. Anyway, hey guys, I'm excited for today. It's pretty early still. I'm excited for this week. I've been planning out my weeks really intensely before the week actually happens, and it's been amazing what it's been doing for my day. I hope that you guys are doing that as well. There's so much purpose, there's so much clarity on everything I need to get doing. Today one of the things I'm going to be doing is I'm going through ... A lot of you guys might know, if it's your first episode here, just know that this podcast has been documenting me creating and launching my Secret MLM Hacks course, Secret MLM Hacks product. We had about 37 people join us during the launch, which is great. Tons of people applied to join my downline, which is a lot of fun, which invigorates everyone else. Keeps everyone else moving and things like that. I'm getting an average of one to two people per day asking to join my downline, which is hilarious. I don't reach out to anybody. I don't do any of the face to face stuff very much. You know what's funny? I was talking to some of the people though like, "Awesome. Now what do you say face to face?" I'm like, "You know what? I kind of solved my own problem. I really don't talk about it at all face to face with anybody." I don't know. The subheadline for the thing was how do to X, Y and Z without friends and family even knowing that I'm in MLM and that's true. I think my parents and my family kind of know-ish that I'm in I, but not really. I think they think it's not like a real thing, or I don't know. I don't know, but that's the whole point. That's the reason I built these systems was to solve my own pain, and it's been working, and it's great. That's why I built the product to show everyone what I was doing as well. It's not a pitchfest. I don't show anyone. I don't even tell anybody what MLM I'm in, but it's been a lot of fun. Today what I'm building now or what I'm finishing is about three or four months, I did the first draft of the workbook that goes with the course. It's fantastic. It's fabulous. I love workbooks. About four years ago, three, four years ago ... Excuse me. I'm getting over a cold again, but about three or four years ago, I was going through this workbook. Actually I've got it right over here called DotComSecrets Ignite. It's a workbook. It's not like it's huge or anything, but I went page by page by page through it about four years ago. When it said, "Hey, do this, this and this," I did not move on until I did it. When it said, "Now do X, Y and Z," I did X, Y and Z and I did not move on until I had those things done. It was in the middle of college and I was hiding literally in the basketball stadium box office seats. I think I've told you guys this before. I would hide up there. I didn't have money really to get into the thing I wanted to. What I did is I went through that workbook literally page by page by page by page, and I planned out everything that it said. I did everything it said to do. When it was time for me to launch, I had all my ducks in a row. I knew where things were going. It made me answer the hard questions. How are you going to find people? How are you going to sell? What's the sell point? All that stuff. Where's the traffic coming from? What's cool is that it helped me apply everything that was being taught in a video course. I've set it up slightly the same way. I tend to think when I get someone's course ... I buy a lot of people's courses and got books all around me. I love studying. I love learning. I tend to think like hey, I'm going to through this entire massive thing. I'm going to go through all of it. Just watch it all in one shot and then I'll see what I want to do after that. It never works that way though. There's always so much stuff. I'm sure you guys have all done this. You read a book and you're like, "Oh my gosh. That was great. I should go apply that." You're like, "Well, I'll keep reading." You forget about it, right? There's a really, really great TED Talk by Mel Robbins. Mel Robbins is fantastic. She talks about The 5 Second Rule. The 5 Second Rule basically says look, if you have an idea, if you've got that thought that pops in your head and says, "I should do X, Y and Z," right, if you don't act on it in five seconds, it's gone. Right? Your head pulls the emergency break. Your head says, "You know what? There's too much risk involved with that." Even if there isn't, your head starts to find and search for a risk for it so that you feel justified and not doing it. Does that make sense? The whole point of what I'm trying to say right here is that I kept thinking it through, I got the first draft of this workbook back and it looks fantastic. It's so cool. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for it. Anyway, it's going to help a whole bunch of people. Apply my course and actually get the stuff done so that they're not stuck in this like learning cycle. I talked about that a little while ago too, but so they're not stuck in the learning cycle. I'm excited to actually get this thing out there, but I'm going through and I'm making edits. One of the things in here talks about relationship creating. Now I know a lot of people call it relationship marketing or other things besides MLM, which kind of makes me laugh a little bit. MLM. MLM. I talk about relationships and not in a way that I think people really think about it. What you do in here though is you list out a whole bunch of people that you wish were in your downline or who were buying from you or specifically the people who have lists of the people that you wish you could sell to. Right? You got two ways to really go about this MLM thing. Okay? This is what I want to talk about today. There's really two ways to go about this MLM thing. The first way is the way that it's traditionally taught. There's nothing wrong with it, but it takes forever. The other way is more of the way that I do it, which gets people applying to join my downline which is amazing. Then I give everyone in my downline those same systems so they can keep duplicating. Anyway, there's really two ways to go about it. The first way, okay, imagine this. I used to go backpacking a lot. I grew up in Littleton, Colorado, which is like right between Denver and the mountains. I mean I was skiing since I was five. Skied like crazy. Tons of skiing. Lots of backpacking. Lots of outdoor stuff. I absolute love that kind of stuff. I haven't been able to do as much of that lately, but I still love it. I remember there was a summer we went on a three week backpacking trip. It was this three week backpacking trip and I remember that like two weeks in, we get to this spot where we were planning on resupplying our water at this creek. We get to the creek and everyone's tired. After two weeks, your legs are kind of broken in. You don't really feel it as much anymore. It's really those first like three or four days that kind of hurt a little bit. Then after that you're like, "Okay." Just like anything, there's growing pains at first and then you kind of get to a spot where your body adapts or like anything else, your brain adapts so you figure out how to solve the problem, whatever it is. Backpacking taught me a lot of stuff about life and business. Anyway, we get to this spot after two weeks in. We get to this spot where we're going to go refill up our water and there's no water. The creek is totally dried up. Totally dried up. We were like, "Oh, crap. We still have 48 hours before we're going to go waltz into camp." It's actually kind of a dangerous situation. We pooled all of our water together and everyone threw the rest of the water that they had together in this circle. We kind of rationed the water out the remaining 36, 48 hours, which might sound like hey, you can be okay, but when it's high altitude like that, your brain goes a little bit weird when it doesn't have a lot of water. You start to not necessarily hallucinate, but you can. It starts to mess with you. We were really high up, when you are dropping a lot of elevation to get down to the camp where we would like resupply. I think we went home for like a day or two and then we went back out for another week. There was a lot of us. There's probably like 15, 16 of us. It was one of my favorite memories ever. Do you think that we stood there and started digging for water? No. No. Is that the most efficient thing to do to sit there and start digging for water right there? No. Why? It would take forever. Right? Wouldn't it be better just to pull a map out and go find out where the existing water is and walk to that water? Ah, Steven. Oh, thank you so much. Here's the lesson of it, here's the lesson of the whole thing is when you go and you start talking to family members and friends who do not have a preexisting disposition to buy into MLM or your product, you are digging for water where it does not exist. It's not to say that you won't find it. In fact, a lot of people do, but my word. For me I hate doing that way. I got to sift through a lot of rocks, a lot of weeds, a lot of boulders on the way to find the few spots of water that hopefully will create more water for me and I eventually can retire. You know what I mean? It's way better for me to just go and find existing streams. Way better. Right? If I have to go and I even have to pay a toll to some river owner, right, that's totally worth it. It's still going to be more effective and efficient for me to go do that than me to actually start right there. I could even go to a swamp and just start digging. Guess what? That's some nasty water right there. You don't necessarily need that kind of water. Go find the water that's already moving. The water that's already in motion. The water that is already in motion. The water that's already going. The water does not depend on you to move it. Right? Has anyone ever drank stagnant water that you filtered? Holy crap. That is nasty crap. Hopefully you're starting to get the analogy here. Rather than me going and starting to dig water where there once was water, I don't care if even it used to be the Mississippi, if it's not there, go find it. Right? Move with it. Shift happens. I'm not a swearer, but I actually caught that. Shift happens. Okay? Anyway, it's better for me to just go find who already owns the ... I could go find a river source that nobody owns or I might go find a river source that somebody does own and I have to pay a little bit of homage to. Pay a little bit of fee to. Maybe a relationship for to actually gain access to. I treat MLM the exact same way. Okay? The exact same way. I'm not going to go to the places where I'm going to have to dig and hunt and search and find and track and trap and trick and go and say, "Oh my gosh. This is what you need. You have to have this. You need this. You need this." First of all, if anyone needs my thing, they're already not a good candidate for me. I am looking for people who are already in motion. People already moving. I want the people that are sometimes hard to get the attention of because they're so active in their life. That's the kind of person that I want. Right? That's the kind of person you should want. Right? That's exactly what I teach my downline to do is how do you find those kinds of people and how to do you become attractive in a way so that they start coming to you, right, rather than you going and tricking, trapping and tracking. That's my three T thing I guess. I don't know. I kind of made it up on the spot, but I kind of like it. It's sticking. Does that make sense? What I do is in this workbook is I go and I help people identify where the existing river sources are and then what you do to court and slightly date the river owner, right, because you might not own that river. You might not be the first one who found the river. If you're not, which chances are you're not, right, you might have to either pay some homage to that person or whatever it is. Let's think of Facebook for example. Right? The way I see people digging for water in Facebook is they'll go around and they'll start ... Man, if my wife gets invited to another party, it's someone's house party, I swear she's going to snap one day. She gets invited to so many house parties and she is not in MLM at all. That's people digging for water where there once might have been water, but there's not water. Going on Facebook and posting a whole bunch of stuff like "I'm working from home today" or they're posting selfies of them in the gym. "Working from the gym today." It's like really? Really? You're working from the gym? I saw somebody come out the woodwork and say, "Hey. Oh man. I'm so excited. I made $30 this month from my MLM. That paid for our diapers." I was like man, you've been in that MLM for three years and you're just barely paying for diapers? Something is wrong. Wake up. Something is up. I'm not saying it's not effective and I'm not making fun of anybody. In any other business, in any other scenario, in any other industry, right, people would call that not necessarily a success. Right? People wouldn't necessarily go to the people who didn't want to have their product in the first place. I am never, ever, ever going to be in the market for a pink Volkswagen or probably any Volkswagen. Don't try to sell me one. I don't have a preexisting disposition towards it. How do you find the rivers of the people who already have a preexisting disposition towards MLM? How do find those people? How do you get attracted to them? Solve that problem and my friends, you get one to two people asking to join your downline a day. I solved that problem. It took me a while. I certainly figured out how to not do it. There's a lot of times I failed, but eventually I turned on the spicket and I was like, "Holy crap. It's working. My word. Check this out." That's what Secret MLM Hacks is all about. With this workbook though, what I'm having people do is identify where the existing streams of traffic are. Let's take another Facebook example. Right? Mark Zuckerberg's done a great job creating existing streams of traffic on Facebook. Right? It's better for me to go pay ads and target people who have that preexisting disposition towards MLM rather than just digging randomly in these random spots. Right? Mark Zuckerberg created the traffic for me. I know where people are hanging out. I know where they are. Right? I know how to put ads in front of those people and get their attention and get them to ask to join. Like how interesting? Right? Interesting concept there. If you do it the other way around where you're like digging, man, that's like ... Tell me. Tell me that you have not felt burnt out before doing that game. Again I'm not making fun of it. I know there are people that get great success out of it. That's awesome, but I'm not willing to put like 10 years of work into something before I start to see a return. I'm not willing to do that. I'm not willing to do that and I'm fine being open about that. I will not do that. There is definitely a better way and I found the way and I've been doing that way. Does that make sense? I hope that there's been some epiphanies with this that going and posting on Facebook all over the place, that's not a bad thing to do. Man, if that's you're only strategy, you are digging in places where there is not currently water and you're trying to dig deep enough with a belief that there is some. Eventually sometimes guys it's just easy enough to just throw the towel and say, "You know what? There's got to be a better way," and you start figuring out, "Yeah. You know what? You're right. You're right. That makes sense." Anyway, I hope that makes sense. I know that people have reached out before and they'll be like, "Steven, that's so cool. What you do is really, really hard though." I'm like it's actually not. I think that's the part that's been the most shocking to me. It's actually have been way easier than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be a lot harder. Now I had to go through a lot of stuff to get to this spot and that's part of what my course teaches. It's what did work so you can shortcut all of that. Right? It's what did go through and help people or help me actually get success with it. Right? It's not like it's been a one hit wonder. It's still going. It's still running in the background 24/7, 365. It's just running in the back. It's been fun to be able to have that. There's a quote. When I get up in the morning, a lot of times I like to listen to these different inspirational videos on YouTube and things like that. I love that. I love that stuff. Anytime there's like a quote that really hits me hard, I actually write it on a legal piece of paper and I thumbtack it to my wall. In front of my wall or like in front of me right now, I got pieces of paper thumbtacked all over the place. I got a big massive wall calendar, but then there's thumbtacks all over the place. Sometimes it's a white piece of paper that I grab. Sometimes it's yellow. It's like this white-yellow mural on my wall in front of me right now. There's one on here that I look at a lot. It says, "If you do what is easy, your life will be hard." Isn't that interesting? "If you do what is easy, your life will be hard." Folks, go ahead and start trying to craft into your life growth experiences. If you've been digging because you don't know any other method of getting people, just take a chance and understand that there are other ways to get this done. There are other ways. If you start looking at what the top MLMers are actually doing, I guarantee you they're not digging in random spots. They're not sitting around going, "Hey. Hey. Hopefully this works. Hopefully this works." They're usually not doing home or hotel meetings. Okay? That's what they teach everyone else. We become their lead gen. Does that make sense? It's a stark reality. It's a harsh reality. One that I feel like a lot of people don't ... Anyway, I'm sorry if I'm the one that's like bursting the bubble on that, but start looking around. Understand what's going on. Start modeling them or model my stuff or take my course or whatever it is. Just understand that there are other ways to do this game. Anyway, that's all I got for you guys. I'm editing this section in the workbook. I got the first section back or the first edition back and I love it. It's so amazing. There's some tweaks and different things I got to go switch or fit and update and things like that. Then I am shipping it out to everybody who got the thing, who got Secret MLM Hacks. I'll ship it out to them. They get a physical copy and they also get a digital one. Then my plea is that they go page by page by page. You know what's funny is the first workbook that I actually filled out, that DotComSecrets one, guess which business I was planning? This one. What's funny is I did never expect that I would go work for Russell Brunson. I never expected that I would go do X, Y and Z. There's all these different detours, but I learned everything I needed to on the way to actually pull off what I planned in that original workbook. I take workbooks very seriously. There's something about stopping and thinking and pondering and writing by hand your answers to what you're going to go be doing in your life. Anyway, I'm excited about it. I'm going to get this thing edited up and then shipped on out to the people who just bought it. Anyway, this is not a pitchfest, but if you're interested, go to SecretMLMHacks.com and that's kind of where you can ... There's a free web class you can go check out there and get started and join our crew. We call ourselves the MLM Mavericks because we break rules. All right, guys. I'll talk to you later. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback for me. Do you have a question you want answered live on the show? Go to SecretMLMHacksRadio.com to submit your question and download your free MLM Masters Pack.

How Fiona Robertson travelled the world on a shoestring, discovering her life path as she went. Plus the best travel food ever!Hi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:Adventure was my missing nutrientIn addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best travel food I know. It's not only packed with nutrients and easy to carry everywhere, but it's also the best food to help eliminate parasites from the body.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.I am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Fiona Robertson, the Body Whisperer, who helps people understand who they want to be. Fiona has travelled all over the world and has some amazing adventures to share with us which I think you will find very inspirational.So Fiona, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast!Fiona: Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Thanks for inviting me. Nice to meet you here finally, face to face.Me: Yes, exactly! Cause we've known each other for a while, right? But it's been like an internet based...Fiona: An internet-based friendship, yeah, I know (laughs).Fiona's storyMe: Super! So I know that you've got, you've had quite a lot of adventures, but I think you mentioned that your taste for adventure perhaps came from your childhood. Is that right? You said you felt quite different as a child, can you maybe explain why?Fiona: Yeah, 4 years old we went to South Africa to live as a family. We kind of grew up with no shoes. So basically just kind of playing with lizards and centipedes and understanding all about nature and just wanting to be outside climbing trees, being a tomboy.A different way to grow upIt was just a different way for me to grow up. And when we moved back to the UK, I realized I was just different. I wanted to be outside playing in different ways and not playing giggly, schoolgirl games.Me: So how old were you when you moved back to the UK?Fiona: I was nine. Yeah, nine, nine and a half, something like that. Just kind of old enough, over the formative years, you know, that I'd really got a different country and kind of life under my skin. You know, I'd learnt Afrikans, I'd learned there was another language, I'd learnt there were different things going on. We were in South Africa at the time of apartheid as well, so you get a lot of different experiences, you know? We travelled there too on holiday of course.You see, I didn't think it was different, but it is, you're in a game park for a holiday and there's cheetas walking in the car park. It's exciting! And that's what my story's about, I didn't realize that adventure was so under my skin.Into the militaryMe: And so you said that you signed up to work with American Express in the military, is that right?Fiona: Yeah, one of my first jobs when I finished college and school and everything, I didn't want to go on to be an interior designer. That was my dream. But when they mentioned to me that it was four years foundational course and then I could specialize, I was like, “You've got to be kidding me! I can't sit still for that long! I've gotta be out there doing something!”I was interested in travel and so I got a job with American Express and it was on the American Air Force bases in the UK. So I started in High Wyckham and I was basically doing their travel tickets, their military travel tickets, then I ended up going and reliefing on the other different air force bases. So Greenham Common, Huntingdon, the ones in East Anglia, and just travelling around and doing that. Going and doing my travel, my specialist travel stuff for the American air force base.A different worldIt was cool because you walk into a different world. You go on the American an air force base and that land is owned by America. They have their happy hour, they have their bowling alleys, they have their shops, they have their own ways and cultures of doing things.Me: Wow. That just strikes me as really weird, you know? Like I've never, I mean even though I've lived in the UK for quite a while now. I've never been on any of the bases, and so part of me always just thinks, 'you're not contributing to the local economy', you know.Fiona: Oh they are, they don't all live on base, they live outside. But that was when I was nineteen, I started working on the American air force bases.The perfect job in travelLooking back now I just think what a perfect job for me. Working in travel and on an American air force base, you know?Me: So you organized travel for them, is that right?Fiona: I organized travel for them and basically with the old Prestel sets and the old ABC travel guide books we found air flights and all that kind of stuff. So I took all my exams for APTA travel. After that I went on to do incentive travel and after that I went on to sort of venue finding. Anything to do with people and traveling and moving. But incentive travel was very interesting, I liked that too.Me: What's incentive travel?Fiona: Imagine that you've got top salesmen and saleswomen and they're given an incentive. If they're the top team in the whole company in the whole of the country, then they get sent to some glorious destination and everything's paid for. So we used to organize all that, you know? With the ground agents and meals and restaurants. Down to exactly what kind of napkins would be on the table. It was like organizing a big wedding every few months, you know? Everything from the chauffeurs to the taxis to the kind of color-coordinating the flowers, everything.Import, export and video camerasMe: And then you went into a very different kind of business, right? With video cameras or something?Fiona: Yeah, I had another job in between time working for actually Ocean Pacific and I was on the export desk there. And I used to do all the certificates of export, and that was interesting for me. Because other people couldn't understand what these guys were saying, and I was just able to tune into what maybe the Greeks or the Spanish or the...You know, they were speaking pidgin English and wanting to be understood and then I was able to tune in somehow to what they were actually trying to tell me.And then I went on selling military cameras into industry, and again I worked with a lot of people from all over the world. So I listened to their languages and I listened to their accents and I understood about their culturesMe: So what happened when you wanted to go travelling? Because you said that at one point you had this business and then you sold it, is that right?Fiona: Yeah, from running the company I was working with I then set myself up for myself and found all my own clients and things and did that for two or three years. And I woke up one morning and thought 'God do I want to be doing this in five years' time? No! Two years? No!'Time to go travellingMe: So was there any specific incident that prompted this decision? Or was it literally from one day to the next waking up and going 'I don't want to do this'?Fiona: I thought that the company that I'd set up was my baby. I'd been with this other guy who was in the same industry though he ran a different company. So when we split up I think that was probably one of the kick up the backsides. I just said, “No, this is my baby, I want to hang onto this baby, this company” because Vision Source was my baby.But then when I woke up in the morning I just went, 'oh my God what am I doing? Do I really want to be doing this?' And when it was such a loud, resounding 'no', I couldn't not listen to that. I really had to think, 'no I'm just not going to be satisfied, it's going to kill me if I stay in this office and do this'. Even though it was doing really, really well.I managed to find somebody who was interested in selling, I sold the company to them. I rented my house out and I just took a rucksack and started travelling around the world.Me: So then how did you start? I think you said you bought an around the world ticket or something? I'm asking because, you know, if there's somebody listening who thinks 'oh I'd really like to travel around the world', I think some people wouldn't even know where to start, you know?A pink-haired rebel going round the worldFiona: Yeah, I was thirty-nine, I dyed my hair pink. Me: That's hilarious!Fiona: I was like wanting to be rebellious. Most people when they see the photographs kind of say, “Were you fifteen then?” and I say “No, thirty-nine, dyed my hair pink”. And I had my rucksack, a friend just said, you know, grab a rucksack. You buy a ticket that goes one direction around the world, and you can't go backwards so you always find a destination that forwards. And I think I didn't go that off the grid really. Thinking about it in retrospect it was fairly obvious.South Africa I started because that's where I've still got family living. Then, you know, Thailand, Singapore, Fiji, Cook, New Zealand, Australia and America. I really did not want that to end. That was just...no way.Me: But I think at the beginning I mean I imagine you would have had a decent amount of money to do that from the sale of your business, right? At some point did the money run out? I ask because you said that at one point you were just very trusting and that you thought, 'OK how can I just go to this new place with no money and nowhere to stay?'Fiona: I didn't...the business wasn't sold until I came back from my travels. They owed me the money. They were supposed to be selling my cameras and selling everything while I was away, and they just basically didn't. So I had to sort of deal with things until I came back. And my house that was rented only rented for a few months rather than for the whole year. So yes.Me: Wow.How travelling can be cheaper than staying at homeFiona: In fact it's cheaper to travel around the world than it is to live in a house and try and support yourself.Me: Whoa, you're kidding! Really?Fiona: No, I mean you stay in backpackers. You've got no material needs, you've got your shorts, your t-shirts, your toothbrush, you bring everything back to real, real basics. So you've got a book, you finish a book, you swap it for another book. It's just cheap. You stay in youth hostels, you meet fantastic people. Some of them obviously an awful lot younger than I was at the time. I was thirty-nine, they were all on their first out of university experience, they were travelling the world finding out who they were. And I didn't do that till later, but...Then you've also got different generations who decide to do it. But staying in youth hostels, they're pretty much...they're a good crowd of people. And when I really kind of left my rucksack in the first place, I locked it up, I tied it up, I did all the things that I thought I had to do. And then I walked out of the youth hostel and I went, 'no, damnit, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna unlock everything. We're all in the same boat, we're all from different countries, we're all in the same boat. I've been travelling on an open-sided bus in a tent, on ants' nests and all the rest of it. This is not gonna be a problem for me'.A successful mental mindsetSo mental mindset: “I' am not gonna have any problems with anybody touching any of my stuff. I got nothing they want to steal, we're all in the same boat, we've all got like...” We had our old CD players, we didn't have mobile phones and those kind of things then.Me: That's true, yeah.Fiona: And I carried my passport and my money and my tickets with me in a little bumbag as we had then. Everybody was in the same boat and if you're that open and trusting and you believe you're OK, this is very much the work that I do now too funnily enough, but if you have that vibration running through you, you'll be OK. If you have the vibration running through you like...People before I left wanted to say to me, “Oh my God! Really? You're going to this country? Well don't let anybody put anything in your bag” and “don't put your bag out of your sight” and really all their fears they were trying to put onto me before I left.But if you have this kind of like 'Do you know what? We're all in the same boat, we're all wanting to be experiencing travel and different places and different people and food and...Me: Yeah. So then...Wow! I'm still reeling actually from the previous thing you said about it being cheaper to, you know, travel the world and stay all over the place than to stay in one place, you know. I'm going to be thinking about that for a while!On to Reiki trainingBut I know that you said that at some point you started just like doing things for people to kind of pay your way, right?Fiona: Yeah, it wasn't so much to pay my way but it was just to experiment. During my travels I decided that I would finish off my Reiki. That was a funny story as well.So I'd been travelling, I ended up in Cape Town and I decided to go for Reiki because I enjoyed Reiki. And this guy gave me Reiki and I was completely knocked out. When I sort of came round, he said, “Oh something came to me when I was doing your Reiki. If you're interested in pursuing, maybe finishing off your masters or something like that to do with Reiki, I know a very good woman. She lives in Prince Albert.”And he told me where that was and I thought 'well that's kind of up from where my dad lives on the wilderness in South Africa, I could go and see Valentine and have some time with her'.So I thought about it for a while and I rang, and I rang, and I rang, and I remember writing in my journal, “Bloody hell! This woman is impossible to get hold of!”Changing your thought patternsI scrubbed that out and I put “This woman is easy to get hold of”. I did have a phone, beg your pardon, one of the first kind of Nokia phones. She rang me. So imagine – I'd been saying all this time, 'this woman is really hard to get hold of'.Me: Yeah, and of course she was then.Fiona: Just by scrubbing out that whole thought pattern and changing my thought pattern, I'd actually said 'this woman's gonna be...and she's really easy to get hold of'. My phone then rang and she rang me to say, “Great, I've had your messages. When can you come?”Me: Super! Wow!Travelling with the flowFiona: So I was on this roll when I was travelling of trying to be this very open, flowing person who wanted to experience how easy and safe the world was. Rocking up in an airport like in Australia, I hadn't got any Australian dollars, I hadn't got anywhere to stay. It was kind of one o'clock in the morning when we landed. I wanted to find out how easy it was just by allowing myself to feel easy.Me: And so what happened in that Australian airport at one in the morning?Fiona: Oh God it couldn't have been easier! They are so set up. Maybe in another country it would have been harder.So you arrive in the airport and most people had somewhere to stay and they were being picked up by people. I walked in and I thought, 'oh a cash machine, fine, pop my card in, get cash out, that's easy'. By the cash machine there's a desk there, a welcome desk, there's brochures everywhere for youth hostels and everything. And I thought, 'I wonder if I ring them now if anybody would be on the desk, or if I should have to sleep in the airport'. Which I had done before.And so I rang and somebody said, “Yeah, yeah, no problem, we can come and pick you up, we'll see if there's anybody else coming this way. We'll be there in about an hour”. And they were. Super polite, super easy. Picked up my bags, picked me up, took me to the youth hostel in Perth. Got me a room and that was it.Don't plan too much in advanceMe: Wow. So generally you found that that's the way it worked, right? With the trusting and that it would be easy and things just kind of like fell into place?Fiona: I was told before I left by a girlfriend of mine also called Fiona. She said to me, “Don't book too much up in advance because so many things are changing the whole time. Try not to plan too much because if you plan, you're planning out what the universe might have to deliver to you. Something more fun, something more exciting.”Me: Oh yeah, that makes total sense.Fiona: So don't plan too much. I kind of took it from the other point of view, that I'm a planner, I'm a scheduler, I'm a bulldozer. I'll make things happen. And I was really trying to be experiencing from a different perspective. This was my opportunity to really experience that to live in the flow.And that's really what I want to try and do in my everyday life as a mom now as well. Be more open and understanding and intuitive to...'OK so why did that happen then? Why are they ill?' So this is what brought me...OK raw food kind of came in there as well, but it really brought me to sort of try and interpret what I was being shown.And if you happen to get arrested...Me: Yeah. So did you have moments when you were travelling when the flow just stopped? And you started to feel fear or you were just like 'Oh this isn't working” or... If you did, how did you get back into flow?Fiona: Yeah, I'm trying to think about it. I got complacent, I was in Thailand and I stayed longer than I should so I was kind of arrested when I left.Me: Oh my God, you were arrested!Fiona: Yeah, because I'd overstayed my visa. You're only allowed to stay there a certain length of time so when I left, I just handed in my passport. And they pulled me off to this room and they really interrogated me and I'm just like, 'I was just kind of complacent and I didn't really think about it' and “Well I'm leaving now so just let me go!” (laughs)Me: And so what happened? Did they let you go?Fiona: They let me go, but they made me wait it out. I think I missed that flight so I had to get another one or something. Yeah, they wanted to really make a point there that you can't be complacent. So I thought OK... I wasn't really in charge of looking at my dates in that respect.When you have to push a littleAnother time was when I was in Australia. I was coming down the west coast of Australia and it became a bit of a rush. So I knew that my visa ended at a certain date, I had to be in Sydney so that I could get my flight to New Zealand. The people I was travelling with were under no speed whatsoever. So I realized then 'I have to do something, I have to move this forward faster'. Then I became out of the flow and I was very proactive into getting things moving. And I don't know what would have happened if I'd just bummed along, I don't know.Me: Well yeah but I mean, but then you...that was kind of necessary, right?Fiona: Yeah.A Thailand detox adventureMe: Sometimes you have to do that right? And then you said that at one point you said you kind of discovered raw food and detox and you started coaching girls on your travels?Fiona: I did, that was really fun.Me: How did that happen?Fiona: I was in Thailand and I'd done Thai massage, Thai cooking. And I'd said to the girl that I'd met when I was travelling...I said “God, you know we need to be doing something that we would never, ever dream about doing when we went home”. She said, “Yeah I agree, we need to do something that's kind of off the wall”. I said, “Exactly!”I walked into this bar just to order a water and there was a leaflet on the desk that said The Sanctuary. And it was for detoxing. So I took the flyer and I said, “This really, really hits me! Let's go and try this!” I spoke to the guy behind the bar and he said it's a really cool place in Koh Pang Yang.That's where we went and did detoxing, and they had a fantastic raw restaurant. I'd never experienced raw food before. So we did the detox and I learned what I could from Moon, who was the guy who ran the place and the time. I looked at these menus of these foods and of course your tastebuds change when you do a detox. This was a full detox, colon cleanse, doing enemas, coffee enemas and everything else. Met some fantastic people, had some great conversations, we slept a lot.Simple food for radiant resultsWe met all sorts of shamans, all sorts of stuff. And then I realized afterwards that myself and my friend, our bodies had completely changed, our body temperature had changed.In about three weeks after that, we went for two weeks to another island and we did absolutely nothing. We just ate very, very simply, just raw food. So tomatoes and everything. The restaurants there were very confused. We didn't want the Thai food, we just said, “Basic, plain plate of tomatoes, that's all we want”. So we learned how to say that and we were doing that. We radically shifted some weight and we radically...our bodies changed and our whole energy was completely different. I was like, 'geez I like this! I get this! I feel awesome, I feel radiant!' We were just having so much fun!The coaching beginsMe: So then you started coaching girls? To help them...Fiona: Yeah then in the next place I went to I met some young girls. And a couple of them had said, “We're on our last leg”. They were kind of going the other way around the world. And one of them had kind of said, “You know, I'm a nurse and I left that because I wanted to find myself, I wanted to find out what I really wanted to do. And here I am on the last leg of my journey and I don't think I've found myself at all!”Magical questionsI said, “Oh, OK”. So I just started asking her some questions, and I set her some tasks for the evening. I said, “What do you want to do?” And she said, “I've got no idea!” I set her some tasks for example, I think one of them was 'a hundred and one things that make you happy'. How easy. And setting out what her perfect day would include. They were two of the simplest tasks that I thought that she might actually do or might actually enjoy doing.And the next morning when we were kind of...She was leaving and I was just having breakfast. And she was like, “Oh my God!” She said, “I totally get what I wish I'd known before. I know what it is that I want, I know what makes me happy, I know this and I know that and I know the other” and I was like 'oh my God'. And then just other conversations, it just seemed to be natural for me that when I was speaking to somebody...Not telling them what they should do, but kind of like, 'have you ever thought about what it is you'd like to do? What it is...Who you'd like to be, what you'd like to wear? How you'd like to sound, speak? Do you enjoy singing? Dancing? What is it?' All the different things that make you who you want to be.Me: Wow.Fiona: It came from that, really. Just having conversations. Nothing structured, but just allowing people to find out for themselves what they liked about life, about being alive.Finding a travel partnerMe: And then at one point you met your Dutch partner, right? How did that happen?Fiona: Yes, we met in Australia and we just started travelling together. We were going the same route together. Very interesting conversations. He allowed me to be very profound and very deep. And I found something new about myself as well, which normally I would not have had those kind of conversations with people. In a very deep, delving, wondering, curious, inquisitive, wanting to know more. So that was kind of refreshing and probably why we stuck together for so long because we allowed each other to have those kind of conversations. And I found myself a different kind of person. That I didn't agree with everything that he said, or I had an opinion. I found my strength from having those kind of conversations too, I'd had a strong interior. And I found that I knew what I wanted, let's put it that way.Back home and pregnantMe: I know at some point your trip around the world ended. And then you were...you were back at home feeling sad, right? But then you were...you started travelling again when you were three months pregnant, is that right?Fiona: (laughs) Yeah, I got back to my house in Oxford. We stayed there for a while and I'm just like, 'God, I don't want to be here because I'm gonna end up doing what I used to do and I don't want to do that'. The world's a bigger place, you know?So I was three months pregnant, I was age 40, and I said “Right, that's it. We're gonna take a caravan, and we're gonna find somewhere that makes my heart melt. That really fills my heart, that makes me feel fulfilled”.Me: Wow, what did your partner say? Was he surprised? Or was he like 'yup'...Fiona: He was cool for that, he's now back in Holland, he's not here with me in France. He couldn't make it work for himself. But that's OK. So that was it. He said, 'yeah, great! Let's have an adventure'.An adventure to find your ideal homeWe took a caravan and basically I had a tick list of the things that we wanted. So what would you want if you had everything you could possibly imagine? You'd want the sea and you'd want the mountains. And you'd want the outdoor life because South Africa's under my skin. I'd have the plants in the garden, hibiscus plants and palm trees. It would be very green.So we started travelling, you know, down the coastal route of France, and kind of 'does this place? No. This place doesn't feel good. Does this place?' And “How will you know when you find it?” he used to keep saying. “I'll just know, I'll just know”.Me: And so how long were you travelling before you found it? Because most people wouldn't leave when they were three months pregnant, right? Cause they'd be thinking about 'oh my God'...No tests, no scansFiona: I didn't have any tests, I didn't have any scans, I didn't have anything. And I was huge, I had like a huge baseball, like a beach ball stuck out in front of me. My son ended up being five kilos, he was a big boy. But I was a very happy mom, and I was just really, really happy being pregnant and travelling.Me: And so where was he born? Was he born before...Fiona: He was born in Holland. So we stayed here, we found the place, we found Biarritz Saint Jean De Luz. And I imagined us living here what it would be like. We both had tears in our eyes and it just felt so homely, we had left and we'd come back. And when we came back it felt like we'd come home. So it was all feeling-based.Me: Yeah, I'm the same, I'm very feeling-based so I can totally relate to that.No French, no job, no baby knowledge...Fiona: And so then we found the house and then we went back to Holland. We had Micah in Holland, we lived in a holiday home for two months. Micah was my eldest who's now twelve. He was one month old when we moved back here. I knew nothing about babies, I knew zip! Nothing! Nada! I had his sister who helped me go shopping and all the rest of it. And I was breastfeeding and I thought, 'Well what else do I need to know?' I probably sound like such a hippy!Then we came here, we didn't speak French, we didn't have a job, we had a house, a big house. And we had a baby, and my big dog, he was with us as well, Milo. I sometimes wonder how I managed but I used to speak to my spirit animal and for some reason she used to guide me through and make me feel very comfortable and very safe. And that's how I did it.Me: Wow. And then...well, you speak French now, right?Fiona: I don't think I could ever call myself a good speaking French person. I do my best.Me: Well yeah but you make the effort, right? You do what you can, right?Fiona: Oh yeah, I make myself understood. And even funnily enough when we first moved here he would say to me, “What did they say?” I'd say, “I couldn't repeat it, I don't know what they said. But I know it's OK. And we need to do this, this and this”. It was just like an infusion.Me: Yeah, well like it was when you heard people speaking with different accents before, right? That's cool.Fiona: So I was here on an adventure.The world can come to youMe: Well and I know that you said that you kind of had the world come to you, right? Fiona: Correct, correct.Me: So what happened there?Fiona: What a great thing.Me: And how did you start that, actually?Fiona: My partner at the time was trying to work in Holland and travel. And I just said, “This isn't working, let me have a go”. I'd just had my second baby and he'd just stopped breastfeeding. And I opened up Retreat Biarritz, which is basically a detox retreat. I was running it from home, we had two studios that we'd built. People were staying in the studios and I was basically doing for them what I'd learnt to do when I was in the Sanctuary.So basically they're doing three day fast, colon cleanse, learning all about raw food. We did raw food kitchen. Then I used to take them hiking in the mountains, I used to take them to the beach, I took them to the hammam. We took them to the local markets. Just so that they could have a holiday experience while they were here.Me: That's fantastic, that's really great. Wow. So do you still...what do you do now? I know you do a lot of things, but do you still run the retreats now?Detox retreatsFiona: I still run the retreats for small groups of people. Sometimes individuals come, and again from all around the world. I mean I've had ladies from Greece, America, Australia, Russia. And they just find me, God knows how they find me. They come and they go, “I'd really like to come and work with you”. And I'm like, “OK do you just want a detox? I can just do a straight detox for you”.But at some point always the conversation comes up. They're in an old story or they're stuck, you know? 'I used to have a body like this' and 'I don't understand why my body does this'. And then the body whispering seems to sort of come in, and we have that intuitively guided conversation that helps them understand more about their body.Me: So then how does the body whispering work? Can you give us just sort of like a short, I don't know, a little brief idea?How body whispering worksFiona: Oooh, yeah, how does it work! Goodness me! Basically a lot of the ladies who come, they are stuck in a particular story. There's something that they haven't digested emotionally. It could be that they're feeling anger, but then I kind of go beyond that, what's under that. And if you're feeling anger or resentment and things, often what I'm feeling is that people are feeling very disconnected. They're not feeling any connection to other people, but they're not feeling safe.So one of the main things I do is I help them to feel what it feels like to feel safe. And most people, they have no idea what their safe place feels like. When they can discover what their safe place feels like, you've almost got something to back into when things don't feel comfortable for you. When the shit's hitting the fan or you're at a dinner table or there's a conversation going on that you're not feeling comfortable with, you can kind of go, 'hang on a second, where am I?'Tuning into your bodyZone in – some people might call it being centered or whatever, but you zone in and tune into yourself. You get out of your thinking, analyzing, bulldozing head and you get into your body. So you reconnect with your body and you go, 'wow, there I am'.And it's like 'OK so what's kicking off at the moment? Does it have anything to do with me?' And your body is able to kind of respond to you when you understand how your body works. Your body would kind of say to you, “It's got nothing to do with you”.But you can pick up who it is in the room that's really got the energy, the strongest energy in the room that's affecting you. And you can say, 'OK so if that's the person, has what they've got going on got anything to do with me? No. Back off'. You can back off, you can get back in your own energy.How most of us calm our nervesWhat I found was I used to overeat. When I was in the company of my ex particularly. He had a very chaotic mind unless he was focused, he was ultra, ultra focused, but otherwise he was chaotic. Very argumentative, a devil's advocate. But when he was kicking off, I would find that I would overeat because I wanted to shut that off. Me: Oh wow, OK.Fiona: And I calmed down my nerves... The best and the quickest way to calm down your nerves when you're stressed is for a lot of people to eat. When we don't feel safe, we eat. And our body is protecting us by having the chemical reaction that goes on, the hormones that are released in the body, they lay down fat. That's the body protecting itself. Basically the adrenaline and everything that's going on...There are toxins that run through our body, and I didn't realize how overvigilant I was because of my childhood. Certain things that happened there. I didn't realize how overvigilant I was and how aware I was of feeling empathically what was going on around me. So my only way to control that was food.Discovering how you really feelThat doesn't really tell you what body whispering is. Body whispering for me, when I'm on a call with somebody, if I'm talking to them, I'm tuning in to them. So I can teach them how they feel. Basically ninety-nine percent of anybody who's around doesn't have a clue how they feel. They think, 'oh God that doesn't feel nice' but they automatically go into the thing that makes them feel better which is eating. Or drinking, or smoking, or shopping or whatever it is. I concentrate purely with people to do with food.So basically I can connect in with them and I'm saying “OK how do you feel about that situation?” And they go into their heads and they start describing it in mental ways. I'm like “OK fine, now bring yourself into your body because you're mentally describing and giving me mental feedback. Bring it back from your body. What are you feeling in your body?” And often they'll pick something up but I'm able to help them hone in to what the feeling really is so that they can recognize it the next time.Me: Yeah, I get it, you're teaching people basically how to...Fiona: Read their bodies.Me: Read their bodies, yeah. That's very cool.Fiona: And also what's happening to me is that when I'm reading their body... Even over Skype, it doesn't have to be live, even over Skype. I can say, “OK so I'm picking up...So a thought came to me, I've just been asked to ask you this question. What does this got to do with that?” or “Would this resonate with you?” So I'm allowing myself to be open that I'm picking up something for them.A body scan offerMe: Wow. And so I know that you have something pretty cool going on at the moment which is a body scan offer I think. Do you want to say something about that?Fiona: Yeah, I offer people if they're interested to find out what the undercurrent is that's going on through their body. So basically I help people understand the undercurrent that's going on. There's nothing more responsive to your thoughts than your body.That being said, if you don't know what you're thinking, then how can you possibly change your thoughts? So often people are saying mantras or they're saying positive thoughts. But the undercurrent that goes on behind that is often very subconscious. I call it on a soul level, when you have total disbelief on that ever happening for you. It could be to do with money, but I talk to people about their bodies.How it worksSo what I ask people to do if they're really interested is they can come forward and they can have a body scan. I can have half an hour with them, I ask them some questions. They're very kind of open, big questions that allow me to see where they're coming from. And for example what makes them really happy or really sad, and then I can gauge what's going on. I can gauge their stress levels, and I can feed back to them what's going on and what's the most likely reason things are not working for them. Even if they've been dieting and detoxing and exercising for years. But there's something going on in their bodies that they haven't allowed themselves to let go of. They're still hanging onto something and it's hanging onto their body.Me: And so if people want to know more about that, where's the best place for them to find you and to look at that offer?Where to find FionaFiona: OK I have my website which is fionarobertson dot co. And I don't know how we can do that, but...Me: Well I'll link to things in the show notes anyway.Fiona: Yeah, I'll send you a link to the body scan so that people can come through and they can test out the body scan. Basically have a very happy-go-lucky conversation with me. And yeah, just find out a little bit more about who you are and what your body's asking for, funnily enough. What she needs, what she wants and what she's lacking the most. And it's not nutrients on a vitamin and mineral scale, it's nutrients of other descriptions.Me: Wow super, OK. And is that a free consultation, or...?Fiona: Yeah.Me: OK. I thought so, I just wanted to make sure I said it because some people, that's...they'll want to know that. And then, yeah, hopefully...Well I'm sure that there'll be a lot of people interested in that because I mean I just think that's fascinating!Well thank you so much Fiona for being here to share your story!Fiona: Oh, thanks!Shed your baggageMe: It's been quite a...it's certainly given me a lot to think about around... Well around world travel, really, because I love travelling and I have travelled quite a bit. But I'm gearing up to do some more in the future with not very much baggage at all, so that's...Fiona: Oh, so nice to get rid of your baggage! And what a nice analogy as well, get rid of all your baggage!Me: Yup, all kinds of baggage! (laughs)So thank you so much for that inspiration. It's been really great to talk to you!Fiona: Thank you so much for inviting me, thank you so much.Me: You're very welcome, thank you, have a super, super day!The best travel foodRight, so fantastic! I hope you enjoyed that story. And I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you the best travel food that I know. And that food is...dates!Dates are an amazing food. They're easily portable, you can just pop some into a bag and put them in your suitcase. You can even carry them on a plane with you – at least as of today you can still do that. Properties of datesNow in terms of properties of dates, the first thing about dates is that they are amazing for the digestive system. This is because they are one of the best foods for getting rid of parasites. They basically bind onto and then help sweep away all kinds of nasty stuff: parasites, heavy metals, bad bacteria, viruses, fungus and especially Candida. And if you've got a tendency to constipation, dates can help there too.In addition, contrary to what you might think as they're very sweet, they're excellent for helping to balance blood sugar. The fruit sugar that they contain also helps feed the muscles and refuel the brain – so they're a great brain food too. As well as a great food for sport.And if you often feel stressed, dates can help you there as well. They contain almost 70 bioactive minerals that support the adrenals as they work to help us face various life challenges. On top of that, they've got a huge amount of amino acids which elevates their levels of potassium which in turn helps stop formation of excess lactic acid. Another good reason why they're really good for sport, as well as anti-stress.They're also said to be abundant in anti-cancer properties, particularly for abdominal cancer.And because dates are so high in nutrition, they can help with weight control. For example, some Muslims eat dates with water to break a fast before they eat anything else and one benefit to that is that it helps avoid overeating at that first meal which I think is really cool.Why dates are the best travel foodAnother very cool thing about dates is that if like Fiona you want to go on a travelling adventure and you're not quite sure about how you'll find food, some people say that a wrapped up date in your pocket or in your bag can act like a good luck travel charm. It can ensure you'll always find something to eat. Of course yes you can always eat the date itself, but some say that this little fruit can help you find more than that.For those who want to know what exact nutrients dates contain, well there are a lot. But the ones I'll mention here in addition to potassium are calcium, iron, phosphorus, sodium, magnesium and zinc, as well as vitamin K, vitamin A, thiamin, niacin and riboflavin. It's got loads of stuff.How to eat datesAs to how to eat dates, well you just grab a handful, right? Be sure though to remove the pit inside first please, we don't want an impromptu trip to the dentist. And just 4 to 6 dates a day can give you excellent benefits.They're also one of the key ingredients in many recipes for things like energy balls. So for example you can blitz some dates in a food processor with some nuts and maybe a bit of dried coconut for an instant snack. And if you'd like more recipes where you can indulge in their sweetness, I'll post the link to my 5-Minute Desserts recipe ebook below the show notes for this episode. Which brings us to the end of this week's story! I hope you enjoyed it!And if you've got a crazy, true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your particular situation), I'd love to hear from you! If you enjoy my stories and want to hear more, join us and subscribe! I share one crazy yet true story a week. And if you've got any questions, just pop them in the comments! And if you're listening on iTunes, do give me a review, that would be awesome.I hope you have an amazing day, thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Desserts and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on dates including links to studies and other articles: https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/fruit/health-benefits-of-dates.htmlFiona's website: www.fionarobertson.coFor your free Body Scan session, book a time with Fiona here: https://fionarobertson.acuityscheduling.com/Fiona's bioFiona Robertson, Author, Creator of the Home Detox Box, Retreat Biarritz, and a Body Whisperer intuitive holistic coach - supporting women as they release, reset and re connect with their bodies. I assist the body to consciously re constructing itself from the inside out, releasing the emotions and stress that cause the body to hold onto weight and create digestive and long lasting physical symptoms.

Everyone loves a sweet text adventure! Well, maybe not everyone, but most people... right? Fine, how about amusement parks? REALLY? You're not even amused by the prospect of wild rides and sweet snack truck food? Playing hard ball eh? What if there was 100 bucks in it for ya, huh kid? Maybe even more... Join John and Forrest as they traverse TRACTION PARK, a thrilling amusement park, with a little more insanity and humor than most parks.  Your @DireWeasels are Forrest @walk6070, Ivana @arcanevice, John @absurdistkobold, Cody @codedude3, Matt @chalupabatman27, and Mollie @eskimomo9! All rights to certain media go to their respective owners, Action Park Theme to whoever made it, and K. N. Granger for TRACTION PARK the Out Loud Text Adventure copyright by Goldfinch Games.   Check out our patreon at www.patreon.com/direweasels .  Also, rate and review us on itunes (5 stars is the correct number of stars). Email us direweasels@gmail.com or tweet us @direweasels. Feel free to visit direweasels.podbean.com