Keeping It Civil

In this episode, Henry Thompson and Dr. Jennifer Frey, Dean of the Honors College at the University of Tulsa, discuss the challenges and opportunities facing liberal education. She addresses the prevailing utilitarian mindset in universities, where education is often reduced to job training rather than a pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty. Dr. Frey argues that this trend undermines the traditional notion of higher education as a pathway to intellectual freedom and flourishing. Drawing on her experiences at the University of Tulsa, Dr. Frey shares insights into the university's journey toward revitalizing liberal learning. Under her leadership, the Honors College at Tulsa has embarked on a curriculum reform focused on interdisciplinary learning, virtue formation, and deep engagement with foundational texts.

Featuring Lucas Morel, professor of politics at Washington and Lee University. Morel delves into the complex relationship between patriotism and the experiences of Black Americans, as exemplified by the legacies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Frederick Douglass. Despite facing profound injustices and obstacles, both leaders ultimately embraced America and its potential for progress. MLK's vision of the Beloved Community, rooted in the American Dream, challenged the nation to confront systemic inequalities and enact radical changes. We explore MLK's proposed solutions, including a "Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged," and his critiques of capitalism's role in perpetuating poverty. Additionally, we examine Frederick Douglass's journey from an enslaved person to an outspoken advocate for American principles, highlighting his belief in the transformative power of living up to the nation's founding ideals. Through their insights, we ponder the ongoing quest for a more inclusive and just society, grappling with questions of individual responsibility versus governmental intervention in realizing the promise of America.

In this episode, we speak with Hans Zeiger, the President of the Jack Miller Center, the nationwide network of scholars and teachers. We delve into the intricate interplay of ideas, economics, and donor influence within the realm of higher education; Zeiger provides a unique perspective on challenges facing universities, from the economic pressures exacerbated by the recession to the ideological shifts on campuses and the donor revolt.

Robert P. George serves as the sixth McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University. Henry and George discuss respecting free speech rights on campus (and beyond) for all perspectives, distinguishing genuine free speech from incitement to violence. George advocates for institutional neutrality in universities, discouraging them from taking positions on moral and political issues. The two also speak about free speech challenges, including ideological conformism, social media pressures, and the fear of backlash. George suggests that examples of bold individuals who question orthodoxies can inspire courage and diversity of viewpoints.

Professor of History at the Naval Postgraduate School and Senior Fellow at the Institute of European Studies, University of California, Berkeley Zach Shore examines the United States' critical ethical decisions during and after the World War II. Key issues include the internment of Japanese Americans, nuclear attacks on civilians, and punitive policies towards Germans under U.S. occupation. Despite the majority of Americans often favoring mercy, a minority pushed harsh policies, revealing discrepancies between public opinion and government influence. 

In this episode Henry speaks with Dr. James R. Stoner, Professor and Director of the Eric Voegelin Institute in the Department of Political Science at Louisiana State University. Henry and Stoner dive into the intricate threads of constitutional history with a focus on the symbiotic relationship between British and American constitutional traditions. This episode unravels the historical, institutional, and philosophical aspects that shape the governance, representation, and legislative processes in these distinct democratic systems.

Henry Thompson interviews John Rose, the associate director of the Civil Discourse Project at The Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University. Henry and Rose discuss a course Rose teaches called How to Think in an Age of Political Polarization. Rose talks about intellectual virtues to model, why the most politically intolerant people are humorless and whether campus culture of the elite institutions is too homogenous for certain contentious topics. 

Welcome to Season 5 of Keeping it Civil. We're thrilled to have you back and promise memorable, informative, thought-provoking conversations. In this episode our host Henry Thompson sits down with a Senior Fellow at American Enterprise Institute Matthew Continetti. Besides discussing his most recent book, The Right: The Hundred-Year War for American Conservatism, Continetti speaks about the Republican Party beyond Donald Trump and modern conservatism in the United States, its roots and its future.

Shep Melnick is the Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr. Professor of American Politics at Boston College and co-chair of the Harvard Program on Constitutional Government. Henry and Shep Melnick speak about the current crisis in America's higher education, Melnick's research on Title IX, the regulation of gender equality in higher education and Melnick's latest book. 

Jenna Storey is a senior fellow in the Social, Cultural and Constitutional Studies Department at the American Enterprise Institute. Henry and Jenna Storey speak about the crisis of modern liberal arts education, the restlessness of young college students and her plans for improving and reforming higher ed. 

Franciska Coleman is an assistant professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School. In this episode we speak about assumptions encoded in words people choose to use and why many nations around the world signed a "covenant" that addresses hate speech yet the United States never did. Coleman also discusses, among other things, the social regulation of speech as an example of cancel culture or accountability culture and what these terms imply when used in reference to speech regulation. 

Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a New York Times bestselling author. In this episode Henry and Mac Donald discuss identity politics and why universities are not teaching students, among other things, how to think about ideas "in the abstract" in pursuit of evaluating neutral principles of free speech and government. They also talk about what Mac Donald thinks the role of university in society should be.

Winston Marshall has had a long and successful career as a musician, most notably as a founding member of the popular folk rock band Mumford and Sons. He later made headlines by leaving the band due to his controversial political views. As Marshall embarked on a solo career, we take a look at the events that led to his departure and explore the motivations behind his positions. 

Bion Bartning is an entrepreneur and investor. He is also the founder of FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. Bartning talks to Henry about what prompted him to start the Foundation and FAIR's alternative diversity training and other mechanisms put in place as a response to racism and other ideologies.  

Join us as Henry speaks with Batya Ungar-Sargon about her new book Bad News: How Woke Media is Undermining Democracy. Ungar-Sargon talks about how the media is silencing the middle class of America and why the interests of the lower income population are not represented in D.C. We discuss hopefulness that comes from the "goodness of the American people" and how democracy is in good shape because of the people

In this episode Dr. Nichols, a hip-hop artist, public intellectual and academic, speaks with Henry about hip-hop as a form of public discussion and political activism, about the corrosive effect of social media on civil discourse and the legacy and influence of Bea Gaddy on Nichols' political views. 

Jane Kamensky talks about American identity in colonial time and at the time of the Revolution and whether we're equipping ourselves and our students with an understanding of the revolutionary era. Henry also discusses with Kamensky the binary of competing narratives of U.S. history and why we need to challenge it

Henry speaks to Eric Kaufmann about political demography, nationalism and a mixed-race population as a future majority in America. Kaufmann discusses the dangers of suppressing opposition to immigration and why repressive tolerance is a bad idea.

This episode covers an attack on Salman Rushdie as a “visceral and physical expression” of attempts to suppress free speech. Threats to free speech come not only from the right but the left also, McArdle argues; she calls it a distressing pullback from the values that are necessary to a liberal society. 

Kmele Foster is a media entrepreneur and a co-founder of Freethink. Henry spoke to him about the trajectory of human innovation and what the mainstream media gets wrong about progress. They also discussed freedom of speech in higher education and Kmele Foster's critique of Black Lives Matter movement. 

This week, Josh speaks with John Tomasi of the Heterodox Academy. They discuss John's background studying philosophy at the University of Arizona, his conception of the university as an environment for free-thinking and the teaching of leadership, the goals of the Heterodox Academy, the philosophy articulated in his book, “Free Market Fairness,” and his forthcoming book on libertarianism.

In this conversation with the writer and public policy analyst Michael Lind, Josh and Henry discuss his book, “The New Class War: Saving Democracy From the Managerial Elite,” how elites consolidated power in the late twentieth-century, the weakness of modern political parties, the need for “countervailing power,” his argument against sending more students to colleges and universities, and prevailing economic and legal obstacles to building national consensus.

Heather Wilson, the current President of the University of Texas-El Paso, and former Secretary of the Air Force, has had a distinguished life in public service. In this conversation, Josh and Henry discuss her childhood desire to be a pilot, military service, experience in Congress, and the lessons she's learned from working in higher education.

In this conversation with Brown University economist Glenn Loury, Josh and Henry discuss his intellectual journey, the strengths of neoclassical economics, his opposition to affirmative action in higher education, and how he thinks about persistent racial disparities.

Steven Smith is a political philosopher at Yale. His most recent book, “Reclaiming Patriotism in an Age of Extremes,” makes the case that patriotism should be restored as a guiding civic value. In discussing his book, Josh and Henry cover his notion of “enlightened patriotism,” the necessity of teaching patriotism in schools, and the challenge of balancing patriotism and cosmopolitanism. They also discuss the crucial distinction Smith draws between patriotism and nationalism.

The relationship between race and crime is a central part of the American story. In this week's episode, Josh and Henry talk with Khalil Muhammad, the Ford Foundation Professor of History, Race, and Public Policy at Harvard's Kennedy School. They discuss the contemporary uses of history in public discourse, his award-winning book, “The Condemnation of Blackness,” the uses and misuses of crime statistics, and the need for prosocial interventions to combat community harms.

Andrew Sullivan has been a fixture in American intellectual life for over thirty years. Josh and Henry covered several topics with him, including the role of the essayist, his journey from traditional print journalism to Substack, his thoughts on the foundations of a liberal society, the potential consequences of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, his fear of intellectual orthodoxy in society, and more.

Josh and Henry have a wide-ranging conversation with Lara Bazelon, the Director of the Criminal & Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice Clinics at the University of San Francisco School of Law. We discuss her thoughts on systemic racism, her work representing indigent clients, “progressive prosecutors,” and her new book on motherhood, “Ambitious Like a Mother: Why Prioritizing Your Career is Good for Your Kids.”

Former Russian journalist Regina Revazova is the fabulous producer of the “Keeping It Civil” podcast. In this personal conversation with Josh and Henry, she describes the illiberalism of life under Putin's regime, her decision to leave Russia and seek political asylum in the United States, the state of free media in Russia today, and how the war in Ukraine has surfaced difficult memories. 

H.R. McMaster is a retired United States Army Lieutenant General who served for over thirty years, including as National Security Advisor from 2017 to 2018. Henry and Josh begin their conversation with him by discussing his background, his recent book, “Battlegrounds,” and his argument against what he calls “strategic narcissism” on the part of U.S. military and political leadership. They then discuss some of his experiences in Iraq and his suggested solutions for various twenty-first century challenges. McMaster argues that civic education and a better knowledge of history is essential to rebuilding trust in American civic institutions and restoring the confidence in leadership necessary to implement effective foreign policy with public support. Please note that the conversation occurred in Fall 2021 soon after the U.S. military withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Rauch joins “Keeping It Civil” to discuss the formidable challenges to maintaining a free and orderly society, founded on a written constitution, but which relies fundamentally on what he, following James Madison, calls the unwritten constitution - the norms, customs, and traditions that comprise the habits of a self-governing people. Rauch argues that a liberal democratic society relies on these conventions and on the common dedication to pursuing knowledge through the freedom of speech, and the discipline of searching for and testing facts through the promotion of viewpoint diversity in thorough research, teaching, and the rigorous exchange of ideas. It is only in this way that knowledge and truth will prevail over the purveyors of outrage on the left and the right and cancel culture.

We speak about the relaunch and the importance of the free and open exchange of ideas inherent in the blend of liberal arts and civic leadership education that students can find if they study at ASU with the School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership. This exchange of ideas serves as the foundation for the Keeping it Civil podcast.

In each episode, hosts Henry Thomson and Josh Sellers interview public intellectuals, scholars and authors with diverging views on pressing issues in America today. Topics range from questions around intellectual orthodoxy to racism, to individual liberty and free speech. This podcast is a partnership between the School of Civic and Economic Thought and leadership and Arizona PBS at Arizona State University.

Walter Russell Mead and Duncan Moench greatly disagree on whether the First World War was a murky battle between two equally imperfect and imperialist forces. They follow up this discussion with a prescient conversation that anticipates the attempted revolt in January, the enormous need for telecommuting to ease the country's housing crisis — and the extent to which American education can be remade in a more democratic manner. (Their conversation was originally recorded in the spring of 2019. This will be the last episode of Keeping It Civil. Thank you for listening, it's been a good run!)

Why did American culture build strong community ties in the second quarter of the 20th century only to have it all unravel in the mid-1960s —  did immigration restriction play a role? Dr. Moench and acclaimed Harvard sociologist debate the thesis of his latest book The Upswing.   This interview was recorded in June, 2020.

Two scholars of political thought with highly contrasting perspectives (and totally different backgrounds) explore what promise the rise of populism may - or may not - hold. Dr. Moench and Prof. Mounk do their best to disagree amicably on the meaning of populism and the political future. (Please note: this interview was recorded on February 28, 2020)

Has Mexican American immigration been substantively different from German or Irish immigration to the United States — or, is it merely newer? Dr. B. Duncan Moench speaks with Tomás Jiménez to discuss the overlooked similarities —and unseen differences—between Mexican American immigration and its closest historical counterparts. 

The Manhattan Institute's Reihan Salam joins Duncan Moench to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of mass immigration. When low-skill workers call for less immigration do they have genuine concerns regarding competition for jobs and benefits - or, are their views always driven by racism?

National Review Senior Editor Ramesh Ponnuru joins Duncan Moench to discuss whether the US is in the midst of a "Cold Civil War." Are Bernie's supporters really clear on what they mean by "socialism" — does it matter? Why does no one seem particularly concerned about the specifics of how new immigrants are assimilating? With right-to-life support holding steady (or going up) would overturning Roe v. Wade help, or destroy, the GOP politically?

New York Times writer David Leonhardt joins Duncan Moench to debate how best to conceptualize climate change, why the center-left media doesn’t cover Antifa violence, and whether Joe Biden (or Elizabeth Warren) are "Hillary 2.0." Don't forget to rate us and tell your friends and colleagues about the show!

Harvey Mansfield, Harvard University professor and political philosophy scholar, joins Duncan Moench to discuss being the last (explicitly) conservative professor teaching at an Ivy League university, and how cancel culture reflects serious problems with contemporary liberalism. This discussion includes his dis-invitation from Concordia University’s commencement address and whether dogmatic social justice advocates are really just confused Machiavellians.

Al Gharbi’s remarkable life story and the smear campaign that drove him from Univ. of Arizona (5:30); How getting attacked by Fox News spurred his experiment in framing arguments, which changed his life (8:30). Debunking the sociological myths of Trump supporters (12:30). Prejudicial study designs and how they impact our perceptions of Trump supporters (17:00); What does America “really look like” demographically? Minority groups are less likely to identify as “liberal” (20:00) Do prominent black intellectuals like Ta Nehisi Coates actually represent African Americans’ views? Ethnic diversity hiring initiatives ironically often result in a “white” viewpoint echo chamber (25:30). The idea of an emerging Democratic Party majority rests on false assumptions about minority politics and actual voting patterns (29:30). The racial caste system in highly urban areas and white urbanite hipsters who call out white privilege tend to be those most benefiting from it (44:00)        

How he knew Trump would win before anyone else (3:00); Identity politics (IP) as the fig leaf covering the obscene wealth of liberal elites (7:00); globalism leads to “existential homeless” (15:30); the so-called liberal world order is genuinely diverse or even liberal at all (22:30); describing thought he calls “white progressive racism” (33:00); “selfie man” vs. true citizenship (41:30); are FB “friends” a supplement or a replacement for real friendship (46:30); the new notions of purity and stain as manifested in identity politics (54:00); how one establishes their innocence in regards to the stain of racism and sexism through IP (58:00); IP as pseudo-Christianity but without forgiveness or redemption (64:00).

The concept of “social entrepreneurship” — how risk taking and “explosive rewards” relate to social and political movements (31:30) AB’s background as a French horn player (and college drop-out) from Seattle who didn’t know any conservatives (1:00-5:00) What convinced him of the power of the free enterprise system (7:45) There is a moral consensus in the US we don’t see (12:00) Are humanities fields like Cultural Studies, English, and History going to fall out of existence? The downsizing of the humanities reflects classic market equilibrium (19:15) Will Americans will never be as populist as the French? (27:30) Education is failing students by not teaching them how to manage themselves (rather than trying to manage the world) (33:50) Changing yourself and maybe a few other people is a major accomplishment (36:00) Is America itself an ideology? (41:00) The US needs more immigrants, not less (42:00)

The role of honor culture and how the practice of dueling played a role in the lead up to the US Civil War. Parallels between Southern attempts to intimidate Northerners and contemporary politically-correct bullying (25:00) The role of the telegraph in exposing the violence in Congress (12:00) Designated physical intimidators and “enforcers” sent to Congress (8:00) Northerners electing “fighting men” to physically fight back against Southern intimidation (13:00) Are we really headed towards a second Civil War? (31:00) Are there similarities between the lead up to the Civil War and the culture war today? (35:00) The role of emotional and inflammatory language in setting the stage for the CW (42:00) Discussion of the 2015 row at Yale regarding Halloween costumes and Prof. Christakis (43:00). 

Two forms of liberalism — one liberation oriented, the other community oriented (5); Market utility-maximizing thinking creates “statist individualism” (11) Each side of American politics have sides seeking to restrain different parts of liberal excess (12:30); “liberalocrats” operate w/o cultural, moral, or national boundaries but use “social justice” to protect their interests (17); class is not seen as part of identity in the US (21); Trump and his movement represented an attempt to overturn the “liberalocracy” (22); liberalocrats can replace cultural institutions that have declined due to liberal excesses, but the poor and working classes cannot (27).

Witnessing the end of the Roosevelt coalition and rise of the “silent majority” (7); William F. Buckley’s impact on the formation of “fusion” conservatism (11); lessons of Goldwater’s 1964 campaign (13); Buckley’s relationship with Ronald Reagan (15); the odd role of WFB’s Firing Line in giving voice to left (20); Brookhiser’s experiences on the Colbert Report and Jon Stewart (22); is the American divide really worse than ever? (26); California secession - for real? (30); perils of a new constitutional convention (33); how would Lincoln or Jefferson deal with political partisanship today? (34).

Liberty vs. equality - which do Americans prefer? Citizens as co-creators of governance 4:00. How to address inequality—redistribution, or “pre-distribution”? 6:30 Would a better voting system create more participation? 15:00 Do legislators need a spirit of compromise for democracy to function? 21:00 Is speech essential to empowerment? 30:00 Punishment vs. rehabilitation 40:00 Which drugs should be legalized? 41:00

The “Reagan” vs. the “Roosevelt” dispensation 1:30.The New Left and New Right - both highly individualistic 6:30. The transition away from family in a govt policy 9:50. Identity politics’ (IP) relationship to “pseudo politics” 12:30. The snobbery of the cultural left 16:30. Building a culture of entrepreneurship inside minority communities 18:30. What does the label “pre-McGovern Liberal” mean? 25:40. Do PC taboos really help the left? 33:30. Why IP can’t reject the inherent trade-offs of politics 36:30.

Is Douthat a “populist,” are there any populists in the “mainstream media” — is it even conceivable for an authentic populist to be employed there? The narrow intellectual diversity reflected in the media (5:00). No genuine intellectual outlet for Middle America (9:00). Decay of regional institutions of intellectual thought (11:45). Healthy institutional religious culture (14:00). The negative impact of social media and the technological revolution (18:00).

What makes American religious culture so unique? Is “woke liberalism” part of that religious history, what of Trump’s “empty Christian religiosity”? Americans are Christian heretics (2:30). The transition from older religious environments to the newer ones of today (12:30). Treating the New Left as a religious awakening and a search for a new moral center. The push for free speech and intellectual diversity isn’t enough (20:30). Is there intellectual diversity or even regional diversity in mainstream media? (26:30)