Podcast appearances and mentions of Grant Robertson

Why has it taken us so long to get serious about forcing people to pay back their student loans? Last month, IRD had someone arrested at the border. They have now paid back their loan. Isn't that amazing? They had been chased and chased and chased and chased - and you know that they had, because the IRD only arrest you at the border as an absolute last resort, but suddenly they were arrested at the border and despite presumably years of not paying back their loan - they pay it back. Isn't it incredible what a little bit of pressure can do? We've got more on this, by the way. The IRD has got in contact with more than 12,000 people who are living overseas who owe money on their student loans. 960 of them have paid back everything that was overdue, 1300 of them have started repayment plans, and 89 people have been warned they will also be arrested at the border if they don't start paying up. 11 of them, as a result of that warning, have started dealing with their debt - either by paying it back or by applying for hardship provisions. Now, why I'm telling you this is because it's nearly a year since the Government threw extra money at the IRD to chase down these bludgers. And the IRD has put out a press release with the latest figures to show that actually, yeah, putting that extra money in for the enforcement is bearing fruit. The only question we now have is - why didn't we do this earlier? I mean, it is not like this is a new problem, is it? We have complained about this for years, about these people freeloading on the ever-generous New Zealand taxpayer and then getting a free education over here, going off overseas to live their best lives, paying taxes somewhere else, helping out some other country, and then leaving us holding the baby in their debt. Now, I suspect our lack of action in the past - but I probably can't answer the question on this - comes down to a general attitude towards taxpayers, which is a lack of respect for our money. It's been treated like it's never-ending for too long. We've simply handed out to all without actually really requiring them to pay it back. We say you've got to pay it back, but we don't actually mean it. And this is not a historic problem - it's a current problem. A recent case in point is the small business COVID loans that were handed out by Grant Robertson in 2020. Unsecured, right? They are now due to be repaid. At least $800 million is outstanding and a lot of that will never be repaid. We have to get used to that idea. We handed it out and we're not gonna get it back. It is probably too much to wish for - but wouldn't it be great if we could carry on getting money back like the IRD are with student loans at the moment? LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ahead of the Budget we got the same message we got from a barefoot, jandal wearing Chippy on day one of his post summer break. More debt. Borrow more and spend more. Name an issue, pick a portfolio, any portfolio, where Labour has not criticised the government for cuts and promised to restore spending to pre-Willis levels. The latest example is pay parity, but that is just the latest in a long and growing list of items on the wishlist. In case they didn't get the memo, Kiwis voted for cuts at the last election. If we're doing our bit, the government ought to do its bit. That's the politics of it. The economics have been up for debate. Net core crown debt has more than doubled on pre-Covid to $182 billion or 42.6% of GDP. Like our tourist arrivals, debt has unfortunately not returned to normal pre-Covid levels. Some of this is inflation but much of it is not. There's spending that went too far and got baked in. A couple of things to note. Yes, government debt is low compared to other OECD countries. But, the credit ratings agencies are telling us we must get back to surplus and start paying it down. If you risk a credit downgrade, then borrowing costs you more. We're already spending more financing debt than we do on defence, Police, Corrections, Justice, and Customs combined. And remember, we're the shakey isles with huge exposure to trade. We need headroom to borrow big if shit hits the fan. Ask any economist or the person who runs your household and they'll tell you borrowing for everyday spending is a bad idea. We've been doing that year, after year, after year, and Willis is actually still doing more of it. If that's enough to convince you on debt, here's the kicker. The real doozy. Private debt. We have student loans and business debt and houses. We love houses. Loads of mortgages, and the problem is how much we owe and who we owe it to. Household debt is 120% of GDP and higher than America, Spain, Germany, Ireland a bunch of other countries. What's worse, much of it is owed to foreign banks. We don't have enough savings to lend to ourselves. This makes us more vulnerable as a country, keeps Reserve Bankers awake at night, explains why Nicola Willis's nickers are always in a twist when it comes to getting the government's debt levels down. Willis could, and many argue, should go harder and faster as she's still spending more than Grant Robertson. But one thing you can be sure of, because it has come from Hipkins mouth repeatedly this week, is that spending and therefore borrowing would be higher right now had they be given a third term.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I want to talk a little bit more about Nicola Willis' tight budget - I haven't changed my position from yesterday and I'm impressed at how little she's giving herself to play with. But the truth is, it doesn't go far enough - at all. Because understand this - that $1.3 billion that she's given herself in her operating allowance is new spending. As in, take last year's budget and now increase it by $1.3 billion. For context, Nicola Willis spent more money last year than Grant Robertson ever did in any of his budgets - and now she's adding another $1.3 billion to it. Now I understand that this is conventional politics - budgets increase every year. The last time it didn't, the last time we had a zero budget where we didn't add any more money was Bill English's 2011 budget - because we'd had the earthquake. But what that tells you is it's possible to not increase the spending - and I would argue that is exactly what we should be doing at the moment. Because we are in big financial trouble as a country. We are running structural deficits - that means we are spending more every year than we make. If it was a household, we'd be talking about a family spending more than they earn and running up the difference on credit cards every year - but still deciding every year to spend more. That's what we're doing. I think we need to cut big things. Now, I don't want to be accused of being a racist, so I'm reluctant to say publicly that we should cut the Ministry for Māori Development or the Ministry for Pacific Peoples - but I am a woman, so I'm very happy to say we should cut the Ministry for Women. Why do we need it? Why do we need a Ministry for the Environment and also a Department of Conservation? I could go on. But if we don't get real and start running smaller budgets where we spend within our means, something will have to give. And the thing every commentator out there seems to want to cut is your pension - because it's very expensive to the country. Now if I had a choice, I'd keep the pension and cut out nonsense like ministries we don't need and stop spending more every year than we did the last. Like I said, I'm impressed. Nicola Willis is going further than I thought she would - but not far enough if we're actually going to fix the country's books. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Now, listen, I hope that this ACC business is a Scott Simpson problem and not a National problem, but I'm starting to get a little worried about it - because this is at least the 3rd case of race-based stuff still happening under National when we thought National was going to put a stop to it. I mean, with the free GP visits in Hawke's Bay for Māori and Pasifika kids and no one else - at least that stuff could be blamed on rogue public health staff, and it was killed as soon as we discovered it was happening. And at least with the co-governance stuff that's going on in the Waitakere Ranges - at a stretch, we may believe that the Government didn't know about it. Maybe. But this ACC stuff, the minister knows about. And even though he was told about it, he's not gonna stop it because as I told you in the Newsroom article, he stands by ACC - and he thinks it's okay.Now, I reckon this is gonna be just a little disappointing to a whole bunch of voters who put this Government in power to stop this race-based stuff that Willie Jackson and the Labour Party were pushing. And who would have thought that that directive to the public service that went out last year telling the public servants to stop the race-based stuff was actually going to stop the race-based stuff? National needs to cut the stuff out. They need to stop this. They either need to stop it themselves or they need to go along to to Scott Simpson and tell him to stop it, because otherwise, a lot of voters are gonna wise up to exactly what ACT was warning us at the election - which is that National is not actually going to change anything. National is just Labour in blue clothes. And if you think I'm going too far saying that, just take a look at what is going on. I'll remind you, Nicola Willis has spent more in her last budget than Grant Robertson ever spent. Scott Simpson clearly loves himself a little race-based target. Now, what did we complain about ad nauseam with Labour? We complained about too much spending, but we've still got that going on. We complained about too much racial division - we've still got that going on. So how is this any different currently? As I say, National needs to cut this out, or it needs to risk losing voters to its coalition partners, because the coalition partners at this stage are actually taking a tougher line on this stuff. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Here we go again – the America's Cup. How many times have you heard the debates for and against the America's Cup? The Government, as you will have heard, has declined the opportunity to invest in hosting the America's Cup in 2027 and the usual arguments are raging over the wisdom or otherwise of that decision. Tātaki Auckland Unlimited (TAU) chief executive Nick Hill said it was with great disappointment that they were confirming that Auckland would no longer be bidding to host the 2027 America's Cup, explaining that Auckland's bid was contingent on a three-way funding partnership between Auckland Council, central government, and the private sector. MBIE informed TAU that the government is unable to provide the funds required and, on that basis, he said, he bid cannot proceed. He said the situation illustrates the need for a long-term, sustainable funding model in New Zealand to support major events, and there, I would agree. Rather than having it on an ad hoc, piece meal, “hey, what about this guys?” kind of a basis, having some sort of structure to provide funding for major events as they come along would be a very good idea. Viv Beck, from Auckland's Heart of the City, also expressed her disappointment ruing a missed opportunity. “The reason it's so disappointing is it's ripe for the picking. I mean, we've got the infrastructure, the economic benefits would be there and if there had been quicker action on finding alternative funding. I mean we understand that there are other priorities for the government, but growth is also a big opportunity, a big priority and you know the reality is that the GST alone could pay for that money. So I think with some imagination and will and determination it could have been a different result. “We know we don't compete internationally now. Often, we don't, we're a small country, we get that. But I think we do have to have the energy and drive and will to try and find ways to actually grow this, because events are a great way of attracting people here. It's not just a one-time wonder that people come and have a great time. I mean the benefits from trade and jobs, international profile. You look at Barcelona. I mean, imagine if we had that in 2027, something along those lines at a time where we really do need to have something that actually excites people, that we actually are growing and not just full of problems.” Yes, yes, yes. But at risk of stating the obvious, we aren't bloody Barcelona, are we? We're not in the middle of Europe, surrounded by nations who are just a fair wind filling a spinnaker away. We're at the bottom, next stop, Antarctica. The last time New Zealand hosted our economy was left $293 million worse off. That was the 36th America's Cup in 2021, and that was according to an official cost benefit report. Auckland's economy alone was left with a financial deficit of $146 million, with a financial return of 72 cents back for every dollar put in. I am a financial and economic numpty, but even I can see that that does not make sense. To be fair, we were severely hampered by Covid-19, and according to the Trevor Mallard and the Clarke government – they crowed about the 2003 event, they said that generated around half a billion dollars of economic activity into the New Zealand economy which made the investment of around $10 million worthwhile. They said back in 2003, an extra 9360 full-time equivalent jobs were created. And while 85% of the extra economic activity was generated in Auckland, there was still a substantial effect in other regions as international visitors travel to other parts of the country. That was 22 years ago. The world is a vastly, vastly different place. Right now, an America's Cup is a nice to have. It would be lovely, it feels great. I've been in Auckland for a number of Americas Cup's, and they were fantastic, feel-good affairs. They boost morale, and the bars and restaurants do a roaring trade, and everyone with a bit of cash has a jolly good time. It's an absolute jolly. But then I'd like to put a pool in the backyard too, and I think ultimately it would have economic benefits, ultimately it would pay off. I could make the case that if I put in the money now, then I could put in the pool and get the pay off later. Well, except it's a nice to have right now. There are other priorities, and I would say the Government is absolutely damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. This is the price we pay for spending up over the last few years. I'm sure we could find the money. Admittedly, this Government doesn't have Grant Robertson's knack of finding millions down the back of the couch – he always seemed to pop up with $460 million just when it was needed. But what do the optics look like? Cutting the ribbon at a pared down Dunedin hospital while Auckland has a knees up on-board boats and drinking champagne, sure that's going to look fantastic, isn't it? Labour would be bleating away about “unnecessary expense” and “look at the waiting lists”. They're absolutely damned if they do, damned if they don't. We were warned. Wise souls told us on the show, during Labour's hoot's wahay spend up that ultimately, we would have to pay the piper, and this, turning down the opportunity to host an America's Cup is what it feels like. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Chris Small from ABC Business Sales summed up the business loan scheme beautifully on the Mike Hosking Breakfast this morning: it was a balls up that was going to, has indeed, and will continue to cost the country hundreds of millions of dollars. Let me take you back to March 2020. Business loans were made available in May – the announcement was made in March for small businesses affected by Covid-19. Businesses were offered up to $20,000, plus $1800 per full time employee. More than 129,000 businesses took out loans worth $2.4 billion. Borrowers had five years to repay the loan, and many would reach that limit from June. It was never going to work. And the worst thing was everybody could see that it was not going to be a boon for the businesses that they thought it was, that it was not going to be a temporary stopgap, that the audits that Grant Robertson said would be put in place to protect the scheme were not going to work. Everybody could see that, everybody that is, but the previous government. “In hindsight if the previous regime could look back, I'm sure they would wind it back and put a few more bells and braces in there because what they're now finding is people basically took the money thinking it was unlikely they were going to pay it back. And sure enough, they haven't paid it back, with little consequences. No security was taken in the way of PG's (personal guarantees) or any GSAs over their businesses, so it was a real free hit for the business owner at the time. “Because there was no security taken, so the houses aren't at risk, no personal guarantee, so they can't get personally bankrupted, all the IRD, from what I've seen or read, can do is put in this default interest rate. Yes, that will keep mounting up and capitalising, and certainly a sole traders position, may just walk away and set up new entity or just ignore it. But I don't think it's realistic for the IRD to go around and just from an administration perspective, there's 120-odd thousand people to chase. It's just not going to happen. So it's just it was a balls up that's going to cost us hundreds of millions of dollars, unfortunately.” Yep, another one. That was Chris Small from ABC Business Sales on the Mike Hosking Breakfast this morning. Utter madness. And at the risk of triggering those of us who did not have a good time under the previous administration, we do have to discuss it as the mistakes made then must never be made again. They have to be acknowledged – that it was a balls up. He put it beautifully. There were many of them and we mustn't do them again. I think we can take it as read that high trust models don't work, we tried that experiment, didn't work. Didn't work for the business loans, didn't work for MIQ stays. BusinessDesk wrote back in 2023 that hotels that provided rooms for the government's controversial quarantine system received more than $1 billion. Just $187 million has been recovered by the government from people who had to pay for their MIQ stay, another $26 million is outstanding. So it didn't work there. High trust didn't work when it came to policing. It didn't work when it came to allowing troublesome tenants to stay on in Kainga Ora accommodation. I can't think of a single sector where it actually worked. I remember my accountant saying to me, she had businesses who were taking the loan and saying, oh, we're not going to pay it back. Why should we? There is absolutely no need to – if they're stupid enough to give us the money, we're not going to pay it back. Surely there is a moral authority that if you can, you should. And if you can and you won't, then you must never, ever talk about beneficiaries bludging off the system ever again. Same with student loan defaulters, you have no moral high ground at all. We can't move on. It'd be wonderful to be able to move on, but we can't move on when we are paying and paying and paying for stupid, ill-considered poorly advised decisions. And we're all going to be paying for a very, very long time to come. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The fact Adrian Orr is leaving is excellent. It shows a level of accountability and responsibility for what has been a ruinous period for the New Zealand economy. The receipts and reviews are in, and the story is stark. We have been hit harder than any other country in the OECD. We had three recessions while most countries, as a result of the Covid plan, had none. Grant Robertson carries some blame for encouraging and endorsing Orr but, more dangerously, reappointing him so close to the last election. The new Government could have/should have sacked Orr, although that would have set a fairly disturbing precedent given the Governor is supposed to be neutral. Orr made the Governor's job a household fascination. Yes, Don Brash got well known, but really only when he went political. The others came and went. I might have interviewed Allan Bollard a couple of times. Before Spencer Russell, who you also never heard of, the job was called the Chief Cashier. Russell was your first Governor. Anyway, the upside of Covid and Orr was we at last took an interest. We had a view, and we know about cash rates and inflation and quantitative easing. But we learned the hard way. We paid an enormous price and are in fact still paying the price. Orr has years to run on his contract and clearly the pressure was on. The Government is currently negotiating a budget with the bank, and I assume they were twisting arms, hard, behind the scenes. By the way, the bank staffing numbers have ballooned. Orr has come across as haughty and arrogant, unable to really express any level of regret, if in fact he has any, for all the damage he has done. Giving banks money for free and not putting restrictions of where that money went was the height of incompetency. Still handing out money when we knew a lot of what we thought would happen during Covid didn't, was a scandal. The onerous banking restrictions he placed on the retailers with his “just in case” thinking was needlessly restrictive. The conclusion has to be that although everyone flew blind during Covid, no one flew more blind than us. And no one was led by a more ideologically driven, fiscal ransacker than Adrian Orr. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, the announcement yesterday was on a par with John Key's resignation. The Reserve Bank Governor, Adrian Orr, pulled the plug on his career yesterday with no real explanation as to why – although it's no secret that there is friction between the Governor and the Finance Minister. You know, I know and certainly Adrian Orr knows that if she could have sacked him, she would, rather than inherit him with his five-year term as given to him by the former Labour government. Thomas Coughlan has written an excellent piece in the New Zealand Herald on the tension between Adrian Orr and Nicola Willis. He says while Willis observed the conventions of respecting the independence between the Beehive and the Bank, under questioning on Wednesday, she referred back to comments she made as the opposition finance spokeswoman when she was unmuzzled by ministerial warrant. When you're in opposition, you can say pretty much anything, you can criticise anybody you like. Once you become a minister, there are conventions to observe. So when she was asked questions about Adrian's resignation yesterday, she said, “I refer you back to earlier times when I could say what I liked”. And the comments she made back then were critical in the extreme of Adrian Orr's handling of the economy. Speaking of critical, if this is not the most withering, excoriating, damning assessment of a professional performance, I do not know what is. Former Reserve Bank senior staffer Geof Mortlock shared his thoughts on the Mike Hosking Breakfast this morning: “I was thinking that going through all of the Governor's since 1934, I would rank him as the worst in terms of competence – based really on the monetary policy results. You look at the inflation burst. Now some of that was external, but some of it was definitely a function of monetary policy actions. He's left taxpayers with over $10 billion of debt that could have gone into the public health system and other such things. He's nearly doubled the staff numbers of the Reserve Bank, and he's jacked up bank capital ratios to levels that I think are going to make it more difficult for the economy to actually start growing again.” Yikes. I heard that on the way into work this morning and let out a little nervous giggle-squeak in the car. I felt like I was back at school listening to a tongue lashing from Sister Clare, thinking, I'm glad it's not me, glad it's not me. ‘I've gone to 1934 and without a doubt, he is the worst in terms of competence.' There's been no explanation as to why Orr has resigned. It fits, I suppose, with his maverick nature that he'd just push off and stick two fingers to his colleagues and his staffers and indeed, the New Zealand public. The worst thing about the mess that's been left behind is that people are not criticising him with the benefit of hindsight. Even as he was making the decisions at the time, you might recall we had people ringing in saying this is going to cost us, it's too much, he's going too hard. There were people ringing in almost immediately saying we're going to pay for this and we're going to be paying for a very long time. There's going to be hell to pay along with $10 billion. And they were right. And they were calling it at the time. As a result of decisions made by Adrian Orr, and let's not forget: Grant Robertson. They were yoked together in tandem making those decisions, and a lot of Kiwis suffered. Interest rate increases in response to post pandemic inflation pushed the country into a recession and unemployment increased sharply - the words of Paul Bloxham from the HSBC who talked about the rock star economy a million years ago, when New Zealand used to have a good economy. He said, across the developed world HSBC's estimates suggest New Zealand's economy had the largest contraction in GDP in 2024 as a result of those decisions. And it's the real people, with families and jobs and bills to pay that suffered as a result of the poor decision making from the Reserve Bank Governor. It's hard to find anyone who's sorry that Adrian Orr is gone. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm neither happy or unhappy that Adrian Orr is no longer Reserve Bank Governor, but I do have a piece of advice for whoever ends up taking over from him. Just be the complete opposite. Because I reckon he fell into a trap that ended up with him getting too big for his boots. Which, maybe, is very hard to avoid when you're in a job like his, but the next person needs to make sure they stay in their lane and keeps themselves in check. When you're the Reserve Bank Governor, your job is to work on creating a rock star economy - you're not the rock star yourself. No one can argue that his tenure coincided with a time when what you would consider to be the most grey and dull jobs in the world, took on a whole new meaning. Ashley Bloomfield, for example. Because of COVID, everyone knew who he was. And Adrian Orr. Because of COVID, he was elevated to a level no other reserve bank governor got to in terms of profile and recognition. If you ask me to name another Reserve Bank Governor, the only name that comes to my head straight away is Don Brash. That's because of his political career that he got into after he left the bank. And if I think a little bit more, there's Alan Bollard. But that's it. But everyone pretty much knows who Adrian Orr is and I think it went to his head. I think he loved the limelight, and, in the process, he got a bit too cocky. I think he lost sight of what his job was actually all about. Nevertheless, I don't think he personally is to blame for everything when it comes to us feeling more hard up than ever. And, if he hadn't fallen into the trap of letting the job go to his head, he might not be copping as much criticism as he has and is. I'm with economist Tony Alexander who is saying today that business people and homeowners who blame Orr for their cashflow problems are both right and wrong. He's saying that they're right in that he oversaw the continuation of excessively loose spending during 2021 and into 2022, which over-stimulated the economy and pushed inflation up to 7.3%. He also was boss of the Reserve Bank when the official cash rate reached 5.5%. And then got it down to 2.2% by what Tony Alexander describes as Orr “crunching the economy”. But he also says, let's not forget Labour's Grant Robertson's role in all of this. He was the guy who kept fiscal policy loose. My understanding is that staff at the Reserve Bank had no idea this was coming until after it was announced to the media. Which is a shocker. And, apparently, staff at the bank have no idea what's behind it. I'm picking that he's thrown his toys out of the cot because the Government wants to cut the budgets at the Reserve Bank. And a lot of that will have to do with what the Government probably sees as the former Governor's obsession with things outside what it considers core business for the central bank. But, from the very limited things that have been said since the announcement yesterday afternoon, it's obvious that he's quit. Because when the chair of the bank Neil Quigley said it was “a personal decision” by Adrian Orr, that says he's quit. It doesn't say he's leaving for personal reasons, it says he's walking away. He's going to be on the payroll until the end of the month, but he's not Governor of the bank anymore. An acting Governor took over at midday yesterday. The other thing too about all this secrecy, is that I don't think it's acceptable when you've got a senior public servant who earns more than $800,000 a year quitting like this. On the basis of what we kind-of know, I think we deserve more of an explanation. If the guy's thrown a hissy fit - tell us. Because, for someone who seemed to love the limelight as much as he did, disappearing the way he has is not only very strange, it's also somewhat disrespectful. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You may have heard, the 80's are making a comeback. Lookout for denim on denim, bubble skirts, and asset sales. David Seymour is stepping up his campaign to sell state assets and privatise public services. In his State of the Nation speech last week, the ACT leader said we should be continually asking ourselves do we own the right stuff? NZ First, Labour and the Greens have all pinned their respective colours to the mast and said they are dead against the sale of any state-owned assets under their watch. NZ First and Winston Peters, of course, famously, long-standing opponent of the sale of state-owned assets. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has done what he does best and equivocated. Oh sure, I'm open to the idea, open to having a discussion, but if anything were to happen, not that I'm saying it will, but if anything were to happen, if the for sale signs were to go up, it wouldn't be until the 26th election. So, he hasn't committed either way, just waiting to see which way the wind blows. The fourth Labour Government was the government that really sold off the silverware. New Zealand changed fundamentally as a society as a result of the economic reforms driven by Roger Douglas and his cabinet. David Lange, he might have been the Prime Minister, but it was Roger Douglas who was the driving force behind the economic reforms. One of those within the cabinet, Richard Prebble, argues it was the right thing to do in today's Herald. He says that they had huge debt, and they had to resolve that somehow. He says New Zealand's privatisation was extraordinarily successful. The investors provided much better services and lower prices. Only profitable businesses pay company taxes. The privatized businesses are paying every year in company taxes more than they ever did in dividends. In contrast, he says, the history of state-owned enterprises retained in government ownership is abysmal. Solid energy went from a valuation of $3.5 billion. To being worthless, that it's $390 million debt. He said his office valued TVNZ in 1990 at around $2 billion, $4.3 billion in today's money. The station now runs at a loss, he says. Brian Gaynor argues that the asset sales were not a success, that the prime pieces of silverware were sold off and overseas investors made an absolute killing from them. There is a counter to what Richard Prebble claims. John Key brought back the prospect of state asset sales in 2010 with a deeply unpopular promise to privatise state-owned electricity companies such as Meridian. But he told Mike Hosking on the Mike Hosking Breakfast this morning there are better ways to improve the economy faster than by selling off what remains of New Zealand's state-owned assets. “In the scheme of things, we want the boat to go faster. There's a million things you can do, from cutting bureaucracy and taxes, and you know, making a more permissive society, better foreign investment, all those kinds of things. If you want my view, they'll make the boat go a lot faster than a few asset sales because, frankly, there ain't a hell of a lot to sell.” And there isn't. What would we sell? We've got Quotable Value, which David Seymour quoted as being an example. It values property, it doesn't receive any taxpayer money. But it provides a dividend of between half a million and one million a year, which is the sort of chump change that Grant Robertson used to find down the back of the couch. So that's not going to save New Zealand. Anyone interested in buying a television station? Could chuck in a video store as well as a sweetener on the deal? Anyone? No? Because that's the thing, too, for a successful state asset sale, you have to find buyers. Anyone for a couple of clapped-out ferries? Anyone? No? There's sort of plans for a kind of port infrastructure that's really expensive and hasn't been costed properly, that we could chuck in for free. No? Nobody? State housing. Does the government have a responsibility to house vulnerable Kiwis? Which means owning a huge portfolio of properties and more to the point, maintaining that huge portfolio of properties. From what trades people have told us, anytime they know it's a job for Kianga Ora, everything gets inflated. The cost of the products that are going in there, the carpets, the door, the joinery, the electrics and the cost of the labour. And then, of course, there's Kainga Ora buying up houses at far more than their value and distorting the property market during the post-Covid boom. But I mean really, when you look at what's left after the fourth Labour government did the massive clean out in the 80s... Do we need to own homes to house people, or should that be left to charitable organisations and private individuals? I suppose the only thing left is health, maybe? Hospitals? I mean, let's face it, it is a huge cumbersome beast. With the best will in the world, the changes to the Ministry of Health and to the hospitals that it oversees as part of its job, the changes are not going to be made within the next 10 years. Bringing everything together under one roof, all of the different hospital boards merged together as one operating unit across the country. And there's no guarantee of success. Do you put health out, privatise that? Still free to the taxpayer but not governed by the government. I don't know. I think most of it's gone. I think John Key is right, there are other, better, faster ways to improve the economy. The only thing I can see, and this is just looking at it theoretically, the only thing I can see that we've got worth selling is the property portfolio and is that what we really want to do? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In July, there was a recall on two brands of plant-based milks, Silk and Great Value, after a listeria outbreak that led to at least 20 illnesses and three deaths. Public health officials determined the same strain of listeria had been making people sick for almost a year. When Globe reporters began looking into what happened, they found a surprising fact: the facility that the bacteria was traced to had not been inspected for listeria in years.The reporters learned that in 2019 the Canadian Food Inspection Agency introduced a new system that relies on an algorithm to prioritize sites for inspectors to visit. Investigative reporters Grant Robertson and Kathryn Blaze Baum talk about why this new system of tracking was created, and what went wrong.

In July, there was a recall on two specific brands of plant-based milks, Silk and Great Value, after a listeria outbreak that led to at least 20 illnesses and three deaths. Public health officials determined the same strain of listeria had been making people sick for almost a year. When Globe reporters began looking into what happened, they found a surprising fact: the facility that the bacteria was traced to had not been inspected for listeria in years. So how did this happen?They also learned that in 2019 the Canadian Food Inspection Agency introduced a new system that relies on an algorithm to prioritize sites for inspectors to visit. Investigative reporters Grant Robertson and Kathryn Blaze Baum talk about why this new system of tracking was created, and what went wrong.Questions? Comments? Ideas? E-mail us at thedecibel@globeandmail.com

We knew the Government books were going to be bad, but not this bad. No way we're getting to the surplus we expected in 2028. That is now so far away it's not even in Treasury's forecast period anymore. It's some time, who knows when, in the 2030's. We'll have to borrow another $20b in debt to tide us over for the next four years. That'll push our interest payments over $10b every year. So we'll be spending more on our debt interest than we spend on Defence, Corrections, Police, and Customs combined. Now, this is not the current Government's fault. This is a recession caused by Adrian Orr and the Reserve Bank to deal with Labour's overspending. But National are not doing what they need to. They need to be cutting way harder than they are. There is a measure we use to look at how much the Government is adding to, or reducing from, economic growth. It's called public consumption. They were supposed to cut that by 1.4% this year. They cut it by 0.2%. That's basically no cut. Next year it's supposed to cut by 2.2%. Now, it's by another 0.2%, which is to say they're actually not cutting much at all. We still pay the wages of 14,000 more public servants than we did in 2018. They've only cut one public agency, which is the Productivity Commission. Nicola Willis spent more in her last budget than Grant Robertson ever did. National keeps saying they can't cut more because they don't want austerity, but we are so far from austerity it's not funny. We are spending more and hiring more public servants than five years ago. The trouble with that is we're in a recession, which we weren't five years ago. National needs to treat this like the economic trainwreck it is and cut their cloth accordingly. They might not be responsible for the mess we're in, but they are responsible for fixing it and so far, they're really not fixing it. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If New Zealand was a company staring down the barrel of running at a loss for at least the next five years and finding itself needing to borrow $20 billion more than it thought it did just six months ago, it would be lights out, wouldn't it? And no amount of creative accounting could change that picture. Essentially, that's the state we find ourselves in after yesterday's fiscal update from the Government. With pretty much the only good news coming out of it being in the housing market, and an expectation that it is going to come back to life the year after next. Unfortunately, I think Dunedin can kiss goodbye to winning the fight over cutbacks to the new hospital. I think all the noise about the IT cutbacks at Health NZ will fall on deaf ears in the Beehive too. But I also think that the Government is doing the right thing holding its nerve and I think doing a Ruth Richardson and going harder and faster on the spending cuts would be a disaster. I was listening to independent tax expert Geoff Nightingale on Newstalk ZB this morning and one of the things he mentioned was how much of a role welfare costs are playing in the Government's overall financial position. Which is why I mention Ruth Richardson. It was 1991 and Ruth Richardson was Minister of Finance and delivered what is forever known as the “Mother of all Budgets”. Because it was brutal - especially for beneficiaries and families. Unemployed people had their dole cut by $14 a week. Anyone on the sickness benefit ended up $25 worse off each week - in fact it was nearly halved, going from $52-a-week to $27-a-week. Universal payments for family benefits were completely abolished. She also brought-in more user-pays in health and education. Remember that was something Labour's Roger Douglas stated in the 80s but Ruth Richardson took it further. And, 30 years later, Labour's Grant Robertson delivered a budget that he said was increasing benefit payments to “right the wrongs” of Ruth Richardson's 1991 budget. Nevertheless, the Finance Minister is saying today that, despite the way things are, we're not going to see the Government going harder and faster on the spending cuts because it has already made spending commitments to the public. But she says re-prioritising spending will happen. So it seems that Nicola Willis isn't going to channel her inner Ruth Richardson and deliver the Mother of all Budgets Volume 2. Which I think is wise. Not that I'm saying that the Government isn't to blame for any of the shambles unveiled in yesterday's update. As you'd expect, it's pointing the finger at Labour - accusing it of economic vandalism, and how this just shows how much of a fix-it job it has on its hands. And don't get me started on the creative accounting we saw yesterday, which Treasury was against the Government doing in the first place, and which some economists think is a justifiable thing to do but still kind of cheeky. I'm not going to get bogged down in numbers, but I can't resist pointing out that part of the problem is the Government's revenue from taxation being down. Over four years it's going to earn $13 billion less. The cost of this year's income tax changes is going to be $14.5 billion over five years. Just saying. But the tax cuts horse has bolted and there's no going back from there. The other reason for the tax take being down is that businesses aren't earning so much - which, of course, means they're paying less tax too. And that's going to be a key thing for the Government —and Nicola Willis said so this morning— it needs to do what it can to stimulate economic growth. It will say that that's what things like the fast track legislation will do, all of that stuff. But it can't fix things with legislation alone, the Government needs to keep investing. Which is why it would be a terrible mistake for it to go all knee-jerk on it. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Anyone who thought the ferry debate was over for summer was very wrong. The weekend papers were full of reckons and I reckon it's because it's a bigger piece of infrastructure than many realise. Sure a lot of tourists and locals travel on it, heading on adventures or heading home, but $30 billion dollars worth of freight between the North and South Island depends on it too. So the reckons were about who screwed it up more. Nicola Willis, Grant Robertson or KiwiRail itself. Then there was debate over Winston's hijacking of the job and whether this will play out well or badly for him. The conversation about rail enabled or rail capable rumbled on and whether just letting Bluebridge have the whole job was a good idea, since their boats don't seem to break down or run aground. Steven Joyce commented on the nostalgic choice of Kaiwharawhara for the ferry port, a very earthquake prone reclamation. But if not there then where Steven? Relocating the port to a seismically more stable location could be even more expensive. It was all politically tinged, and that to me is the big problem. The best thing I saw was a comment by the political commentator Liam Hehir, who noted that when Grant Robertson first saw the plans KiwiRail had he told them to go back and try again. Then he failed to put the expenditure into the pre election financial update. That means one of two things. They were going to hide it, but $3 to $4 billion is really too big to hide. Or, more likely, they hated the idea too. In other words no one a year ago knew what to do and no one liked the idea on the table. How refreshing might it have been if that was said openly a year ago. Then we could have had a properly informed debate and made a grown up decision, instead we've had posturing and virtue signalling about who's right or wrong, left or right, while a $$30 billion dollar trade route slowly falls apart. This whole thing is another example of how the best infrastructure decisions are made without politicians. Because they play games that mask the real issues.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Finance Minister Nicola Willis is promising tax changes ahead for charities and the closing of loopholes, and the details of that will be announced in next year's budget. And not before time, you'd have to say. There's about $2 billion, it's estimated, in untaxed profit in the charitable sector, and politicians of varying hues have been eyeing up that revenue potential for some time. I think both Christopher Luxon and Chris Hipkins have said on this show that the charities loophole is something they want to look at. There's also the issue of fairness. A number of charities, operators, businesses —think high profile ones like Sanitarium and Best Start— compete with non-charitable businesses that do not have tax exemptions. The tax working group estimated that about 30% of charities were likely to have some sort of trading activity. So when is a charity, not a charity? Michael Gousmett, from the University of Canterbury, says look at Christ College in Christchurch. He says they're shareholders in a forestry company, and he says if they're sending young men up to the North Island to teach them how to grow straight pine trees, how to mill timber, how to market it and so on, that would be advancing their education under charity law. The fact is they don't. Those boys wouldn't know a pine tree if it fell on them. It was a purely commercial operation, same as the chap down the road growing straight pine trees. The difference is one pays tax, one doesn't, and where's the fairness in that? I think we need to tighten it up. It's not so much a loophole as what Michael Gousmett, describes as “a failure of fiscal policy”. The fact is, there's provision in the Income Tax Act for exemption for charities – he would argue that it's too broad. And you'd have to agree with him, and a number of people have said much the same thing when they have rung in when the topic has come up, and when we've had the leaders of the parties in for a chat. You've got Ngāi Tahu and their seafood businesses. Michael Gousmett said seafood production is not the same thing as advancing the purposes of iwi. I mean, while you can get away with it, go for it. I mean, there are plenty of people who are setting up trusts to avoid paying the maximum amount of tax. They try to minimise their tax return, and that's legal at the moment as the way the law is written, but I think Nicola Willis is casting a gimlet eye over the law and looking to tighten it up. We're all agreed, aren't we, that the sooner that happens, the better? We've been going on like pork chops about Sanitarium and some of the iwi who are operating very, very successful businesses. All well and good to have a charity, set up your scholarships to send kids off to school and grants for housing and health and what have you – great, fabulous. But when the loophole exists, you know it exists, it's been pointed out people can see it, politicians of all shades have said this is a nonsense when we need every last bit of cash. Couldn't we do with Grant Robertson's $600 million down the back of the couch right now? We need every last bit we've got. High time the loophole was closed. I'm just sorry it's going to be next year's budget, and it couldn't happen with a stroke of a pen today. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you think the last government spoiled things for everyone? There's a question! Let me clarify that a little bit. Do you think the last government spoiled things for every politician from here on in, with the way it handled the COVID-19 pandemic? Because if we believe the COVID report which came out yesterday, then Jacinda Ardern, Grant Robertson, Chris Hipkins etc ruined the party for every other politician - current and future - because of the damage they did when it comes to the public's trust. It says, if a similar pandemic happened now, the public would have less trust in the Government and there would be less willingness to comply with the rules. And I have no doubt that would be the case. I think that trust in the government will never be restored to what it might have been before COVID-19. And there are two reasons why I think that. One is connected to how Labour ran things. The other isn't. So, yesterday, we knew the report on the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into New Zealand's COVID response was being delivered to the Government. What we didn't know was when it was going to be released to the public. All the talk ahead of yesterday had been that it was going to be next year before it saw the light of day. But the Government probably assumed that trust was going to feature in the report big time and knew that, if it was going to have a chance of restoring that trust, then sitting on this report for months wasn't the way to go. Not that I think that it will do much good on that front. Because there are two reasons why I don't see trust in government ever getting back to what it used to be. Let's start with the one that isn't related to Labour's handling of the pandemic. And this is to do with the global political shift we've seen in the last few years, where people have said they've just had enough of governments telling them how to live their lives. Because they just don't trust governments and politicians. The other reason why I think that public trust in the government will never be what it used to be here in New Zealand, is specific to the way Labour handled the pandemic response. I think most people would agree that, in the early days at least, they trusted Jacinda Ardern's government to do the right thing in the face of what was significant global uncertainty. But like most crises, COVID went on and on and on. We had all the different strains of the virus. We had different countries doing things differently. We had people losing patience with all the lockdowns and mask wearing and COVID cards. So we had all that volatility. But the Labour Government just stuck to the plan it started with in the first place. Delivered with a "we know best” attitude. Which is why people stopped trusting them. And I don't see public trust in our politicians ever being fully restored.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

One of the questions we'll be putting to Chris Hipkins, of course, is a question around the capital gains tax, because this is an issue that simply will not die. Labour Party members will vote on whether to formally endorse continuing work on a capital gains or wealth tax at their party conference in Christchurch this weekend. The party's been debating tax policy since losing the election last year, part of a broader truth and reconciliation soul searching. The people loved us so much and then they didn't. How did it all go so wrong? So that's there's been a lot of that. Former Labour Party leader, David Cunliffe was on with Mike Hosking this morning and he says he has no insider knowledge, but thinks the conference members will be pushing hard for some sort of wealth tax. “CGTs have actually polled really well, and one might, with a wry smile on your case, say that the CGT poll better than the Labour Party, so it's unlikely to be a net vote loser. Most middle ground National voters I know would also support CGT, no so a wealth tax. I mean a wealth tax has got a retrospective element sometimes, because it goes to accumulated wealth and high wealth individuals might vote with their feet, so I think that's a much riskier proposition. I think Labour should be moderate here and just do a sensible, relatively low-rate broad based CGT.” Which is what David Parker and Grant Robertson last time wanted when they had a mandate. They had a mandate, they had the popular vote, they were governing alone – they could do pretty much what they wanted and what senior members of the party wanted, senior members of the government wanted was a capital gains tax. So I would argue with David Cunliffe that if there were votes in it, you can bet your bippy that Chris Hipkins would have been chucking it out there. He was desperate to stay in power. He was putting things on the bonfire and offering trinkets and displaying baubles, and you know if capital gains tax had had any votes in it, you can bet he would have put it out there. Instead, he brassed off some really senior members of his government by saying it wouldn't happen. It'll be interesting to see where this goes. The text machine went wild after David Cunliffe's interview with Mike. And in news that will surprise no one, the Newstalk ZB audience appears to be overwhelmingly against the idea of a capital gains tax. I don't buy all the criticisms of a capital gains tax, but one of them rings true: I simply do not trust that the Labour government will spend my money wisely when they take it off me, if the last administration is anything to go by. There has to be some sort of understanding, some sort of relationship between the government and taxpayers, some level of trust. If the government is coming to us to tax us, they have to say we're going to take money off you, and you might not like it but look at what we can deliver for the whole country for future generations with your contribution. Look at what you can do when we all contribute towards the country, this is what we can deliver. And you accept that. You say okay, I don't particularly like it, but I don't agree with everything you're doing but I can see results. I can see the country is improving, I can see that services are being delivered, that people who are working hard can get ahead, that kids can get an education, that my grandmother can get a hip replacement, I can see that it's moving in the right direction. But to take money off us and be left worse off as a country and as a people than when we started, yeah nah. She's a harder sell there. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For episode 430, Co-founder & COO Grant Robertson joins Brandon Zemp to discuss how Three Protocol is creating fraud-resistant cryptocurrency-based eCommerce tools to make crypto the worldwide form of payment. Three Protocol uses state-of-the-art Zero Knowledge Proof technology and Neural Network AI technology to bring private, fraud-resistant and secure eCommerce and online RWA marketplaces into the AI era. ⏳ Timestamps: 0:00 | Introduction 1:00 | Who is Grant Robertson? 4:17 | What is Three Protocol and what tools does it offer? 5:32 | What is 3Pay? 8:48 | 3Pay Virtual Card & Vouchers 9:12 | 3Pay accepted globally 10:58 | Top-up 3Pay Virtual Card 13:06 | What are ZKi3s? 16:05 | What are Tri-Proof Smart Contracts? 19:43 | How does Job3 work? 22:34 | Three Protocol token 24:25 | Three Protocol roadmap 27:55 | Three Protocol website & social media

Universities are a bit of a minefield at the moment. Grant Robertson has gone to run Otago, Auckland has introduced a Māori-related compulsory course which has received surprise and push back, and AUT has been giving out free points in a race-based travel rort, where if you're Māori you get a better chance at travel funding than if you're not Māori. So when the latest international university rankings were released yesterday the fact Otago is at its lowest ranking ever will come as a good chance to offer a decent serve to old Grant "can't run an economy, can't run a university" Robertson. Auckland was another who fell out of the top 150 for the first time. So, once again, a chance to have a crack. There are other rankings and depending on which ones you look at depends on how they are judged. Overall, you can argue we are not particularly high up in global terms. Auckland as our top facility outside the top 150 doesn't sound very encouraging, because it isn't. Otago is so far down the list they don't even rank them specifically. It's just a band and they have gone from the 301-350 band down to the 351-400 band. They might be 399th in the world. Surely there's some reputational work to be done? I note Otago defended themselves by saying they were disappointed, but no New Zealand university had improved, sort of in a "well we are all a bit useless then, aren't we?", kind of way. Having had a bit of experience with universities these past few years —two of our five have, or are, attending and a third is about to go— the unmistakable reality that smacks you in the face is the wokeness of it all and the stench of indoctrination about the place. They are there to fill your head with the stuff they believe to be correct. You think their way or you are wrong. A lot of it is race-based and it's unappealing. Mind you, I'm older. Maybe young kids lap it up, or think they lap it up, until they mature a bit. But even the teaching brigade at some of these places have voiced their concerns around freedom of speech and when you add the concerns to the rankings, the overall picture painted is not flattering. Because they are so woke my fear is a ranking like this will not be seen as a reason to change, or improve, but yet another reason to dismiss those who can't possibly know what they're talking about. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Grant Robertson is the founder of Three Protocol, creating a series of decentralised marketplaces to open digital commerce to the world, including the unbanked, debanked, and those who value privacy.  Why you should listen Three Protocol aims to establish a network of autonomous marketplaces using blockchain technology. These marketplaces aim to facilitate Product, service and Real World Asset financial inclusion for individuals lacking traditional banking facilities.  Three Protocol uses the latest Neural Network Artificial intelligence technologies to increase marketplace procurement efficiency, to enable the utilization of cryptocurrencies for transactions and to instate equitable governance via a Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO).  The first platform, Jobs3, is set to emerge as a decentralized contender to existing employment marketplaces such as Upwork and Fiverr. Central to the project is the $THREE governance token, Neural Network machine learning, and ZKP pseudo-anonymisation Digital IDs alongside smart contract technology, which together will enable secure escrow services, efficient procurement of marketplace products, services, real-world assets, DAO-facilitated dispute resolution mechanisms, and seamless cryptocurrency purchase transactions. Supporting links Stabull Finance Three Protocol Andy on Twitter  Brave New Coin on Twitter Brave New Coin   If you enjoyed the show please subscribe to the Crypto Conversation and give us a 5-star rating and a positive review in whatever podcast app you are using.

Expectations were high for 17-year-old Canadian swimmer Summer McIntosh coming into the Paris Olympic Games. After all the races were said and done, she won a medal in each of the four individual races she competed in: silver in the 400-metre freestyle, gold in the 400-metre individual medley, gold in the 200-metre butterfly and gold in the 200-metre individual medley. These wins make Summer the first Canadian swimmer to win four individual medals at an Olympics and the first Canadian woman to win three individual gold medals at a single Games.Grant Robertson has been watching Summer win from the La Défense Arena in Paris. He explains how Summer approached the Olympics, why she is so dominant and who else made it to the podium on the Canadian swimming team.Questions? Comments? Ideas? E-mail us at thedecibel@globeandmail.com

So it seems we have ended up with three stories.  But all three stories have the same outworkings - we look like a basket case of a country, but we got there three different ways.  First is the plane.  That's on the Government, and indeed various Governments, who failed to take defence expenditure seriously and it's caught them out.  Like NATO, member countries promise to spend 2% of their GDP on it, but don't. Until Putin rolls into Ukraine and then they panic.  We talk it up here as vital, but make the same mistake until it gets too embarrassing to ignore.  Second is the ferries.  That seems to be on KiwiRail. KiwiRail don't seem to be up to much.  Yes, they have been mucked around over the years by various Governments. But as I said yesterday, read the paperwork between them and Grant Robertson over what they were looking to do and what it was costing and how clearly they had no control over what was going on and the bill blowing out.  Governments can't run literally everything on a daily basis and it is KiwiRail who have let the Government down, and badly.  The third story is the power tower.  “Inconceivable” was the word.  Given it took us about three and a half minutes to work it out and given it only took them less than a weekend to join a few dots, they really shouldn't have been so defensive on Friday.  Idiots were in charge of spanners. Why they have launched a further inquiry baffles me.  Once you have worked out thick people don't follow instructions, what else is there to investigate?  So, all in all, a shocking week for a country that is having a tough time of it anyway.  All of it was avoidable, but we arrived here through different channels - indifference politics and lack of vision for a plane, laziness and contempt over other people's money and lack of discipline for a ferry, and then people you wouldn't hire to walk your dog over a tower.  All of it was avoidable. All of it is more expensive now because of actions not taken at other times.  So the trick is, have we learned anything and, if we have, do we put it into action?  Do we get better?  Do we work harder? Do we try harder?  Do we want to improve? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Here is the real problem with a ferry running aground.  It comes in the same week the plane didn't work and the same week a transmission tower fell over.  It's pathetic. This country is on its knees and it's embarrassing.  As we said last week, the upside is it might just be so embarrassing we actually now get around to doing something about it.  KiwiRail need an investigation into how they have run the business.  Sadly, I note Helen Clark yet again weighed in via social media with another one of her petty barbs about cancelling the ferry contract.  What we need are adults. Read the papers that have been released publicly between KiwiRail and Grant Robertson.  Even he was aghast at the blowout in the ferry budget, despite KiwiRail over and over again reassuring him their latest estimate was the final figure, until it wasn't.  When Grant Robertson is aghast at a blowout you know it's gargantuan.  So this is as much on KiwiRail as it is on any Government.  But you can only embarrass yourself so much and so often before that becomes part of the country's psyche.  A recession is one thing and its outworking has an effect on us all both psychically and psychologically.  But you want to, in some way, feel there is something about this place that is decent and proper and rewarding. You want to feel good about your country.  The Prime Minister can't travel the world promoting business and saying we are open when the planes don't fly and the ferry runs into stuff and the power is out because towers fall over.  We must do better.  We have to wake up to the fact this country has, in too many respects, been run into the ground. It looks increasingly third world.  The fear is the battle between the size of those who care and those who don't is not that obvious.  The fact we can be in this mess and all former Prime Ministers can do is snipe is an increasing worry.  We are reaping what we sowed.  If this doesn't strike you as an emergency, we are in deeper trouble than I thought.    LISTEN ABOVE. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Foreign Affairs Ministry's budget appears to have increased under Winston Peters - despite its savings announcement today.   Peters has revealed MFAT is cutting 60-million-dollars over four years. That's less than one percent, well below the Government's 6.5 percent savings target for most ministries.  Senior Political Correspondent Barry Soper told Heather du Plessis Allan “Winston is the saviour of MFAT.”  Soper said “You may remember in 2018, he had a big argument with Grant Robertson about how MFAT needed more money - and he got just under a billion dollars.”  LISTEN ABOVE.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I think we're about to find out whether this Government has got the cahones to make the tough calls that need to be made on one thing in particular: Asset sales.If you've been reading political commentary lately, including in the weekend papers, there's been a lot of talk of the need for asset sales. Why? Because as we said earlier, we have a structural deficit. Which is a very bad thing because it means we are, thanks to Grant Robertson, now spending more than we earn - on the regular. Treasury's advice for how to fix it? Asset sales.But asset sales are politically tricky because of the hangover of the 80s. So Chris Luxon's already ruled them out. But he shouldn't have, because we actually need to do this. Not just because we need the money, but because selling them down makes them better. Treasury basically admitted this in a report 2 years ago. The ones we own 100 percent have “underperformed their cost of capital” with “ Revenue, earnings and dividends “ all trending “down over the past five years." The ones we own about 51 percent of have, by contrast, outperformed their cost of capital. The last lot we sold - Mercury. Meridian Energy and Genesis- are now all worth more than they were when we sold them down. Two of them have doubled in value, which means we still own as much as we did, and they've paid us billions - so it's a no-brainer on every single level. So the Government should be looking to sell down New Zealand Post, KiwiRail, Kiwibank, TVNZ, the list goes on. But it's politically tricky, and Luxon said no. So- does this Government have the cahones to actually do what it takes to get us out of this economic mess?  LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this special edition of GBL, the former finance minister and soon-to-be vice-chancellor at the University of Otago chats with Toby Manhire from the nosebleeds at the Basin Reserve. On the agenda: tax reforms lost, the Covid legacy, the lure of Dunedin, and which White Fern Robertson most identifies with. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So, a recession it is then.  Another one.  We had one at the end of 2022, going into 2023. Remember those good times? It got revised initially and the Government of the day said "see, told you it wasn't a recession".  Then we got the final read and, yes, it was indeed a recession - two solid quarters where we went backwards.  That's bad enough. Recessions in modern economies are rare. Normally we argue about growth not being strong enough.  No such luck for us.  And now, to break the record, another recession. The third quarter of last year and the final quarter of last year were another two quarters of negative activity. Another recession.  The record? Well, there isn't a modern Western economy that has done what we have.  Britain fleetingly went into a single recession and Germany has had trouble. But Australia, the US, in fact, most countries have not only skirted a recession, they increasingly look like they are going to pull off this famed term we refer to - the soft landing.  Even those who have struggled and, let's be honest, everyone has and is having a hard time, but no one, not a single one, has managed to go backwards twice, except us.  We are the worst of the lot and that, despite Grant Robertson saying it's not a contest, it is unforgivable.  The ongoing issue is that, as well as going backwards, we are still stuck with inflation that is far too high. Now, the commentary will tell you inflation is coming down, which it is. But not enough and not fast enough.  This was the role of the Reserve Banks - get inflation down by applying a level of tightness to the economy without crashing it. Squeeze, but not so hard you choke people. Well, we are at less than zero, turning red in the face with the lack of oxygen.  But inflation is nowhere close to where it needs to be.  They say it'll be later this year before it reaches the target, the midpoint, and we can look at rate cuts.  Will it? I don't think they really know. But what we now know for a fact is we failed the experiment abysmally.  As history is starting to be painted all over the world with all the individual stories of the reaction to Covid, New Zealand now officially stands out as the example of what not to do.  What a legacy. What a reputation.  What a cluster. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For our weekly catch-up with the Labour Party Caeden spoke to Labour Party spokesperson for Education and Women Jan Tinetti. They asked about Winston Peter's comments comparing co-governance with Nazi Germany, the response to the Freyberg High School students performing a haka against David Seymour, and Grant Robertson's valedictory speech yesterday. 

Grant Robertson says he acted in the best interests of New Zealanders throughout his career.   The politician delivered his valedictory last night, saying he's proud of the Covid response.   He also said it had been his honour and privilege to be a minister but wishes he could've changed the tax system.   Robertson told Mike Hosking that he gave 100 percent.   He says he fronted up and explained why they were doing what they were doing, and he understands why people may disagree but doesn't get the hate.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

All governments make decisions with "imperfect information" but retiring MP and former finance minister Grant Robertson says his experience during the Covid pandemic was an "extreme sports version of that". Robertson leaves Parliament on Wednesday after 15 years as an MP - he will deliver his valedictory speech in the House Wednesday night. RNZ's political editor Jo Moir asked him about the criticism that as finance minister he spent too much money at a time when inflation was growing. That was retiring Labour MP and former finance minister Grant Robertson speaking to RNZ's political editor Jo Moir.

Today marks Grant Robertson's final day in politics.  He'll be delivering his final speech to Parliament today at 5:30, and leaves the field with a contested legacy.  Labour's Ginny Andersen told Mike Hosking that he's a real human in politics, making complicated topics understandable and reachable for everyday people.   She said he always had the funniest stories and she's sure his final speech will encapsulate that.  National's Mark Mitchell told Hosking that while he likes him on a personal level, he was a wrecking ball on the books as the Finance Minister.  He's not sure that Grant's legacy in politics is that great.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Act party leader David Seymour says there's “no question” there will be a reduction in the number of public servants under the coalition Government's watch.  Seymour spoke with Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB this morning following criticism of the government's proposed public sector cuts.  Ministries are on a mission to cut spending by 6.5 to 7.5 per cent before the Budget in May.  Finance Minister Nicola Willis has asked all departments to look for savings to “restore discipline” to taxpayer spending.  Correspondence from 11 ministries about their cost-cutting plans has been released to NZME under the Official Information Act.  One idea put forward at the Ministry of Transport was for staff to stay with friends rather than in hotels when travelling for work.  When asked specifically about that proposal by Hosking, Seymour said “it's not a bad idea”.  He said despite increases in spending, public services have not improved.  “Ten billion dollars, five million people... how did we get there is your question. The Reserve Bank and Adrian Orr and their infinite wisdom kept interest rates very low, and Grant Robertson turned the tap on.”  “There's no question there will be a reduction on a number of people,” Seymour said when asked of job losses.  The comments come during a week where Seymour has faced criticism for Government efforts to reign in public spending.  He's also found himself embroiled in a social media spat with the head of a publicly funded anti-extremism centre over cutbacks.  Professor Joanna Kidman, a director of the Centre of Research Excellence for Preventing and Countering Violent Extremism, lashed out at the Government on Tuesday night.  Kidman wrote in a post on X (formerly Twitter) that she could “only assume that this Government hates children, most of whom will be poor and brown”.  “There is so much evidence that military-style youth boot camps don't work and are expensive,” she wrote.  Kidman also added that the Government “wants to snatch children's lunches” in response to Associate Education Minister and Act leader David Seymour describing free school lunches as “wasteful” public spending and arguing that the Government should cut them.  “Is this a government or a death cult?” Kidman wrote.  Seymour replied on X: “Some interesting views from a Jacinda Ardern and Labour appointee”.  Kidman has since made her X account private.  It is the second social media spat involving Seymour after earlier this week, he and Health Coalition Aotearoa co-chair Professor Lisa Te Morenga exchanged personal barbs over the Government's free school lunches programme.  Professor Joanna Kidman, director of the Centre of Research Excellence for Preventing and Countering Violent Extremism, He Whenua Taurikura.  Speaking to the Herald, Seymour said it was “really strange” for Kidman's comments to come from an organisation funded to bring people together.  “If people want to have arguments about the merits of the school lunch programme or the Government's boot camps for prisoners, there's lots of arguments they can make if they'd like to without getting into these kinds of personal attacks. Once you start doing that you're actually promoting division and extremism,” he said.  He said he believed in freedom of speech and the Government “should never lock someone up for their opinion”, but if someone entered a private contract, they took on obligations in terms of behaviour.  He said people who took government funding were allowed to criticise the Government.  Kidman has not responded to multiple requests for comment from the Herald.  Act Party leader David Seymour speaking at Waitangi. Photo / Michael Cunningham  -Jaime Lyth, Raphael Franks, and Benjamin Plummer LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Christopher Luxon can't catch a break. His prime ministerial house is shabby. His prime ministerial plane is borked. But, ask Toby Manhire, Annabelle Lee-Mather and Ben Thomas, how foreseeable was the blowback to his decision to take the $52k accommodation allowance to stay in his own mortgage-free Wellington apartment, how tin-eared was it to declare, repeatedly, that he was entitled to his entitlements, thank you very much, and the swift talkback-driven U-turn? It came hot on the heels of a whiplash week in parliament, with legislation to bin the Māori Health Authority, roll back smokefree legislation and unban pseudoephedrine. Is the government stretching the use of urgency to its legitimate limit? Elsewhere in a new edition of the Spinoff politics podcast Gone By Lunchtime: Warner Brothers Discovery has issued a death warrant for Newshub, all of Three's news operations and a bunch of other local content. What does it mean for democracy, and how was the response from Melissa Lee and the rest? Plus: A word on Grant Robertson, who is leaving politics. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Grant Robertson announced his retirement from politics last week. Some have praised his work as Finance Minister while others have compared him to Robert Muldoon (and not in a good way). It is too early to know how history will judge Robertson as finance minister, but we know that history has been unkind to Muldoon. Today we find out why, and whether it is justified.

At the end of each week, Mike Hosking takes you through the big-ticket items and lets you know what he makes of it all.    Grant Robertson: 7/10  Witty, decent bloke. He lightened the mood.    Grant Robertson, the Finance Minister: 2/10  Buggered the economy and that, sadly, is his legacy.    Ginny Anderson: 1/10  With a fulsome apology still pending, she ends the week having blown up her reputation, damaged her party and looking increasingly isolated in the hole she dug herself.    Air NZ: 6/10  Result not so flash but telling us fees from Auckland Airport is going to stop us flying is bollocks. You can smell the PR department a mile away there.    The 'Never Surrender" hi-tops: 8/10  They are actually cool.    The fitness report: 4/10  We are a divided nation. Too many of us are fat. But it's in a world where increasingly a lot of us actually work at it and want to improve, proving there is no excuse if you want something bad enough.    Taylor Swift Australian styles: 10/10  It's like nothing I have ever seen. The size, the scale, the income, the hysteria. We have seen individual components from others over the years but this is a new league. It's next level and you've got to admire it.    LISTEN ABOVE FOR MIKE HOSKING'S FULL WEEK IN REVIEW See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's one of life's oddity's when it comes to things playing out publicly, that what might have exploded one day, doesn't on another.  The tragedy of Efeso Collins quite rightly became yesterday's political story, and in doing so, saved Ginny Anderson from greater scrutiny and, perhaps, embarrassment.  The house was paused after speeches. Mark Mitchell quite rightly didn't want to talk about it given the focus on Collins' passing.  But what he did say was she had texted him to say she had overstepped the line. Chris Hipkins said she had overstepped the line.  He also said she had apologised, which she hadn't. Saying you overstepped the line and saying sorry are two different things.  Your reaction has been forthright and voluminous.  There is no doubt Mitchell deserves a heartfelt apology. What unfolded on this programme yesterday was gobsmacking.  It was an innocent conversation about past work, as a result of the Grant Robertson resignation and whether MPs should bring more real-world experience to the house and therefore running the country.  Anderson raised Mitchell's past security work and company, and if she had kept her head, that would have been that.  But it wasn't.  It was like something snapped and she passed the point of no return.  Live radio, or live broadcasting of any sort, especially unscripted, is hard. You have to keep your wits about you, you have to know when enough is enough, or indeed when it isn't enough and push a little further.  We all make mistakes. Many, many a time I have sat here thinking "how close to the line am I here?"  What Anderson did was personal. Not just personal, but ill-informed too. Once she crossed the line it got brutal and was an unbridled attack of jaw-dropping proportions.  A saving grace is they are both politicians who live in an, at times, ugly business.  But that doesn't make yesterday right, or excusable, or even close to it.  The ball is in Mark's court. If he wants an apology, he should get one. I'm sure he could find a lawyer or two who would be more than happy to pursue matters elsewhere.  The best and most obvious thing Ginny could do is unreservedly say sorry. Accept it was a moment of madness, it was completely uncalled for and reflected badly on her and her party.  I'm looking forward to this Wednesday. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bitcoin trail blazed the interest and development of digital money. As a result, the drive for a cashless society with fiat currency being replaced with CBDCs is being pursued by an increasing number of countries. Currently, that count is a worrying 130. The ultimate goal is a one world currency. We discuss all of this with Aaron Day, author of “The Final Countdown, the People's Last Stand Against Tyranny by Central Bank Digital Currencies”. We comment on Grant Robertson and his new home at the University of Otago, and how higher education wrecks freedom. And we visit The Mailroom with Mrs Producer. File your comments and complaints at Leighton@newstalkzb.co.nz Haven't listened to a podcast before? Check out our simple how-to guide. Listen here on iHeartRadio Leighton Smith's podcast also available on iTunes:To subscribe via iTunes click here See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The former Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson has announced he will quit politics in late March to instead head up Otago University. The Labour MP says it was time for him to call time. Deputy political editor Craig McCulloch reports.

The Labour Party is losing one of its most experienced and influential politicians as it faces the huge job of rebuilding after its crushing election defeat. Former Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson is quitting to take up the role of Vice-Chancellor at Otago University. It means Labour will now have just nine members of parliament who were in the 20-strong cabinet formed after their 2020 election win. Grant Robertson says one of his proudest moments was the way his party dealt with the early days of Covid 19. RNZ political editor Jo Moir spoke to Ingrid Hipkiss.

The Labour Party has had another layer of experience peeled away following the retirement of its finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. After a 15-year parliamentary career, including six years as finance minister and three as deputy prime minister, Robertson will quit politics next month to become vice chancellor at Otago University. It means Labour now has just nine members of parliament who were in the 20-strong cabinet formed after their 2020 election win. Party leader Chris Hipkins spoke to Corin Dann.

There are several questions you can ask about Grant Robertson bailing now.  1) Why not on the night, or shortly afterwards?  He seemed to give some indication post-election he would hang around for a while to see how things were travelling.  But the clue was there last year when he pretended that you couldn't be a Finance Minister and an electorate MP at the same time, despite having been a Finance Minister and an electorate MP at the same time.  I've watched him this year at question time. He has fired a couple of probing inquiries to Nicola Willis but the gusto, the wit, the energy, and the joie de vivre is well and truly gone.  In fact, the air has gone out of the tyres of the whole party. They look flat, bored, bewildered and with eight press releases so far and a poll that has Chris Hipkins dropping 10% in preferred Prime Minister.  Some of which is to be expected. They got hammered, they got rejected, and they got a message over an approach to life I suspect came as a genuine shock to some of the more idealistic of them.  2) Who wrecked the economy the most? Muldoon or Robertson?  As much as National are playing to the crowd over what they have been left with, it's actually real. In some cases, it's dangerous.  This country is in a number of fiscal areas in a shocking state and that is on the former Finance Minister.  His co-conspirator, Ms Ardern, you will note is long gone, never to be questioned again. So, in that respect I suppose you could say he deserves an element of credit for hanging around the place to watch the outworkings of the vote.  But politicians are measured in legacy and records.  The ultimate aim is to leave the place better off than when you found it. The reality for Grant Robertson is so far from that it is tragic.  He will defend at least some of it because some of it is ideological. But whether it's pipes, trains, ferries or debt welfare the numbers don't lie and the numbers are desperate.  He softened it with his wit, humour, and personality. As I have said many times, I always liked him, and I enjoyed talking to him.  But let the record show the Grant Robertson era was as ruinous as any you will ever see. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Labour's police spokeswoman, Ginny Andersen, claims Police Minister Mark Mitchell was “paid to kill people” and has asked him whether he kept a “tally of how many you shot” while providing private military services in Iraq.  Mitchell says Andersen's comments are “outrageous” and she should apologise. Andersen refused.  The pair appeared on Newstalk ZB this morning for their usual politics slot and they began discussing how some police stations contained mould and how it was an issue ignored by successive governments.  They then discussed Grant Robertson's retirement before host Mike Hosking asked both Andersen and Mitchell what they had done before entering politics.  Mitchell referenced his time working in hospitality, as a police officer and working overseas.  Police Minister Mark Mitchell believed Ginny Andersen's comments were outrageous. Photo / Mark Mitchell  Andersen then made a remark about the nature of work Mitchell had done overseas that led to her claim Mitchell had been “paid to kill people”.  After leaving the police, Mitchell worked as a security contractor in Iraq, eventually setting up a private security company for the military and private interests, of which he was chief executive.  Mitchell said his work included tasks commissioned by the United Nations such as freeing up supplies at ports controlled by criminal gangs so they could reach communities.  He said he was proud of his efforts delivering aid in countries like Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq.  Mitchell also noted how politicians on the left had repeatedly attacked him for his past.  “In my view, [the left] try to do these character assassinations, and that's what they're about.”  Andersen continued, asking Mitchell: “Did you keep a tally on how many [people] you shot.”  She alleged Mitchell's company had earned $4 million a year through its work overseas.  Mitchell said the comments were outrageous and she should return and apologise.  “If that's alright with you, Mark, morally, and if that sits well with you, that's your choice.”  She claimed Mitchell had profited from shooting people, saying: “Free speech Mark, I'm allowed to have a view.”  Labour leader Chris Hipkins said he was aware of Andersen's comments, but had not yet heard the interview in full and wanted to speak to Andersen before making any comment.  In the past, Mitchell has defended the work he did in the Middle East after political opponents described him as a mercenary.  In 2017, he told the NZ Herald that label frustrated him.  “I wouldn't change anything I've done. I'm ... quietly proud, I'm not someone that shouts it from the rooftops — I'm a Kiwi after all. But I'm proud of the difference we made in people's lives in terms of their security and ability to get on with their lives.”  He pointed to work he had done such as opening mass graves with scientists from The Hague gathering evidence for the war crimes trial of Saddam Hussein.  “When you're opening mass graves and you're finding the remains of babies clinging to mums, it's a pretty clear reminder of the atrocities which were taking place. That was a very, very tough job for everyone involved. Instead of questioning why we were there, all it does is provide more resolve in terms of knowing there had to be changes made.”  Adam Pearse is a political reporter in the NZ Herald Press Gallery team based at Parliament. He has worked for NZME since 2018, covering sport and health for the Northern Advocate in Whangārei before moving to the NZ Herald in Auckland, covering Covid-19 and crime.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Chris Hipkins says Grant Robertson indicated his departure from politics long ago.  The former Deputy Prime Minister and former Finance Minister is set to become Otago University Vice Chancellor when he leaves the Labour Party next month.  Labour Party Leader Chris Hipkins told Mike Hosking that it wasn't a huge surprise.   He says Robertson had indicated to him not long after Jacinda Ardern took over as leader in 2017 that 2023 would be his last election.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Earlier this year, The Globe's sports editor Jamie Ross got a peculiar package in the mail – a wallet, with a request from a man nearing the end of his life, to help return it to its rightful owner. That piqued the interest of investigative reporter Grant Robertson. And that began the saga of trying to track these people down.Today, Grant Robertson tells us the story of a hockey player, his wallet, and the mystery Grant is trying to solve around it.Questions? Comments? Ideas? Email us at thedecibel@globeandmail.com

The Labour Party is slamming the government's mini-Budget for a lack of detail on the delivery of promised tax cuts. It came alongside Treasury's half-year update, which showed the country's economic situation is worse than predicted before the election. Finance Minister Nicola Willis says the government will get the planned tax cuts over the line, but is changing the ways they are funded. Labour Party finance spokesperson Grant Robertson spoke to Charlotte Cook.

KiwiRail has been told to find new, cheaper options to upgrade its fleet of Interislander ferries. Two new mega ferries had been planned, with 400-million-dollars already paid to boat builders, although construction hasn't begun. The ferries would have required new port terminals in Wellington and Picton, and with costs blowing out by one-point-five-billion-dollars, the new government has declined to pay. The former Finance Minister, Grant Robertson, echoed Nicola Willis' statements in saying the added cost was not acceptable, but he says certainty is now needed over how a sustainable and reliable Cook Strait service can be provided. Corin Dann spoke to KiwiRail chief executive Peter Reidy.

The new Finance Minister is accusing her Labour predecessor of finding "clever workarounds" to hide the true state of the government's finances. Nicola Willis has also confirmed the coalition government will deliver its mini-budget on December 20. Speaking from the Beehive, Willis said she was aware the previous government had committed to a number of long-term policies, but had only funded them for the short-term. But having now looked under the hood, Willis says it's clear the Labour government upheld the "letter of the law, not its spirit." Willis says she is still waiting for advice on how many "essential" initiatives would soon run out of funding. But initial advice, she says, suggests billions of dollars over the forecast period could be needed to cover the cost of them. Willis says this has prompted her to consider changes to the Public Finance Act. Responding a short time ago, Labour's finance spokesperson Grant Robertson has rubbished the accusations. [embed] https://players.brightcove.net/6093072280001/default_default/index.html?videoId=6342317415112

The new Finance Minister wants to change the law to force governments to publish a list of policies they've left unfunded, ahead of every election. Nicola Willis says Labour left many essential programmes without long-term funding as a way of masking the true state of the finances. Labour's Grant Robertson is dismissing the accusations and says the information Nicola Willis wants collated is released annually in the Budget. Political reporter Katie Scotcher has the story.

Negotiations to form a government continue, but the key players from all three parties are decamping the capital and heading home. Work is carrying on behind-the-scenes to reach a deal between National, ACT and New Zealand First - but a final agreement is highly unlikely to eventuate this weekend. Here's our deputy political editor Craig McCulloch. The Labour government's caretaker position was due to expire at midnight tomorrow, but will now be effectively extended by the Governor General. The arrangement was agreed after consultation with the incoming PM Christopher Luxon and will continue until a new government is appointed. Ministers will continue in their existing roles, except that Grant Robertson will also take on the Foreign Affairs portfolio as Nanaia Mahuta has left Parliament.