Podcasts about so wes

There’s a lot of implications in an increasingly mobile world. Amazon has increasingly become mobile first. So today we talk to Wes Pomeroy, who is the Director of Digital Merchandising at Verizon Wireless. You heard that right, we landed an interview with a director at Verizon Wireless.Data is useless, insights are priceless.Wes and I used to work together at Moxie Interactive and we spearheaded improving conversion rates on mobile devices. In fact Wes used to be my boss. So Wes you have a ton of ecommerce and mobile experience, can you tell us about your background?Questions: Tell me about your mobile experience.Walk me through a short history of how mobile has changed in the past 15 years.How is shopping on mobile different today than say 3 years ago?Is selling online getting harder or easier? Why.How does mobile complicate this?Amazon’s detail pages are getting clunkier by the day. Doing the opposite of typical ecommerce best practices. It’s like a jungle on mobile. What are your thoughts on this?Amazon just released Profiles, a social media version of FB for Amazon. And it's only viewable on mobile. Do you think Amazon can play in this?Verizon has a video series of techxperts Let’s talk tik-tok. Should brands be playing their to increase sales and build audiences?Support the show (https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/myamazonguy)

Welcome!   For being locked down do to this Pandemic there is certainly a lot of technology in the news this week.  So lets get into it.  I will give you my take on a recent federal court ruling about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and website terms of use policies. We will discuss the many risks that medical device manufacturers are introducing into hospitals, clinics, and patients. We have a couple of stories about Apple, first off they are ditching INTEL and designing their processors and why the fake news media is so eager to announce problems with their architecture even when it does not exist and much more. So sit back and listen in.  For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here another week with the Corona virus, I guess. Well, the latest coronavirus, right? This one is it called?  Corona, SARS two. Cause it's another version of the SARS virus. Hey Craig Peterson,  here on WGAN heard every Saturday right now from one till 3:00 PM and we talked about the latest in technology. [00:00:30] The things you need to know, things you can do. We kind of have a little bit of fun too. Sometimes we'll get into the real stuff that's serious and sometimes we just talk about some of the cool things and. Well, some things that I like to with the family and all of that sort of thing. And today, of course, is not an exception. [00:00:50] We've got, of course, these SBA loans, and you might've heard me bellyache about these because, of course, they're just not working. Uh, you know, I have a very small company and at the very least, I was supposed to get this little loan that every business that applied was supposed to get, and he supposed to get it within 72 hours.  Blah, blah, blah. From the SBA and to date I've gotten absolutely nothing and it's been weeks. And to top it off, I got an email from them a couple of weeks ago that was really ambiguous and saying that maybe I needed to provide some more information. We called them up to try and find out what's up. [00:01:32] Things just don't work there either. It just gets totally, totally messed up. So  for me  and some businesses obviously, you know, like big ones have gotten millions of dollars, including schools, universities, et cetera. And the little guys that really need the money, we just aren't getting anything. [00:01:55] Welcome to the club if you're one of them. If you're not, I'd love to hear from you. How did you make it work as a small business? Yeah, you can just email me@craigpeterson.com I would absolutely love to know. And then to top it all off, what happens this week? Of course, the SBAs loan system crashes as businesses are trying to apply for this stuff. [00:02:19] Maybe about another, what was it, 310 billion in emergency funds? It was was supposedly released on Monday or made available on Monday, and the portal course crashed and kept crashing all day long. The bankers who are trying to get onto the system to apply and behalf of the desperate clients couldn't get anywhere. [00:02:40] Very frustrating to them. Of course, no integration between the banking systems and the SBA. No integration, easy way for small businesses or even these big businesses that are pretending they're small businesses. No way for them to be able to get the information out there. And many of them are venting online on social media against the SBA, the small business administration that's running the program. [00:03:06] Now I've got to give them a bit of a break because I heard a statistic this week too, that the SBA has processed the more of these loan applications in the last, what is it, a month than they have in the last 15 years, which is absolutely incredible. [00:03:26] American bankers association is on Twitter saying they're deeply frustrated at their ability to access the SBA system. America's banks can help struggling businesses, you know? When did I say at the beginning of all of this. Based on the amount of money they were talking about and assuming that there were a hundred million businesses. I mean, families, excuse me, a hundred million families in the United States. Somebody just do a little quick math here. 100, one, two, three, one, two, three that's a hundred million. Then times 60, one, two, three $60,000 dollars per family, lets see three, three, one, two, three, $6 trillion, which was the estimated cost of the actual first bailout. [00:04:14] You know, you heard 2 trillion and 3 trillion. The actual bottom line was actually 6 trillion. So what we're really, what we're really talking about here is the ability. For the federal government to have given every family in the country $60,000 can you imagine that? What would that do to the economy? [00:04:37] Giving every family in the country $60,000 dollars. Now remember too, that you are on the hook as a family for $60,000 that were given to all kinds of businesses that probably didn't need the money in the first place. And businesses that were, you know, a friend of this Congress critter, that Congress critter. You saw what Nancy Pelosi snuck into the bills. [00:05:03] The Republicans kept saying, they're trying to keep this clean. Let's just get this to small businesses. And of course, the way they set it up, the way they did it just didn't work either.  Man is this is just me. Absolutely. Is it just me? Um. Yeah, the program first went in April 3rd it, and it's supposed to help the neediest businesses, these really small businesses, hair salons, coffee shops, dry cleaners, and businesses like mine. [00:05:31] And of course, it just didn't happen. Its Beyond frustration here for me and for pretty much everybody else. So these truly tiny businesses like mine are gone. They really, most of them are gone. I've seen estimates this week saying that it was probably in the order of 25% of them will never be back. And I was talking with one of my daughters this week and a restaurant in our neighborhood that has been here for almost ever. [00:06:06] A very old business. Uh, that restaurant, the building is haunted. It has been around for a hundred plus years, maybe 200 years. I'm not sure. Very, very old buildings. It's been a Tavern, et cetera, over the years. And he said, there's no way he's reopening. He just can't reopen. You know, he's been struggling for years. [00:06:28] It's a tough business to be in any ways, in the restaurant business, and I've seen stats on restaurants saying that we could see a 50% decrease in the number of restaurants. Number of restaurants, just an entirely here, 50% I don't know what the numbers are going to be. Um, Dallas. Here I, there's an article from, uh, the Dallas eater saying that Dallas restaurants opened in our May 1st is a bad idea. [00:07:00] Market watch has a thing about this as well. My state is reopening businesses, including restaurants and movie theaters. Am I selfish if I go?Many U S restaurants say PPP loans don't meet their needs. Yeah, no kidding. Right? Even if you get the money. You're supposed to spend three quarters of it on payroll and you've already laid off your people, how are you going to get them back? [00:07:23] Because they're making more money. As laid off people on unemployment insurance, and they would be, if you hired them back. So they're not going to reopen, and then you got to consider, well, okay, payroll was this much, but they were also getting tips which subsidized it because restaurant workers, many of them of course, making just to two or three bucks an hour. [00:07:46] This is a disaster. It is an absolute disaster. I don't know how many people are going to end up dead because of the consequences of what we did to try and slow down the Corona virus. And I'm glad we're able to slow it down. I don't know. Ultimately if flattening the curve is going to help, because you remember the whole idea behind flattening the curve was we did not want to overwhelm our medical system. [00:08:17] We didn't want the hospitals to be overwhelmed. Because we wanted the hospitals to be able to treat people that had this Corona virus. And they certainly were able to, we're seeing hospitals now, especially small rural hospitals closing down. Some of them may never open their doors again and they're not closing down because they were too busy. [00:08:37] They're closing down because it didn't have enough income because they weren't doing elective surgery. A their beds weren't even close to being full with Covid patients. Some of them only had a couple of Covid patients in them. So what, what , you know, um, and we've already had people who have committed suicide. [00:08:56] I'm aware of one, personally because of losing their job and now they had to pay the mortgage. They had to pay all of their other bills. They didn't have the money. The government was dragging their feet on it. And then the money that the government's been spending that did not end up in our hands, that money now  is not only money we have to pay back, but it's going to drive up inflation. And what's that going to mean? [00:09:21] Well, It could mean, well, the antidote for inflation from a typical economic standpoint is well you raise interest rates. Do you remember raised interest rates in the eighties early eighties? I had friends who lost homes because the only loan they could get on their home was a a variable interest rate loan. And so they had one of these variable interest rate loans and the interest rate got up into the twenties. I think I remember it being like 22-23% there it there in the early eighties. And so their monthly payments. Just went up. Doubled, tripled, quadrupled some people, and they couldn't afford to keep their home, so they lost their down payments on the houses. [00:10:05] And people are complaining right now that they cannot get a loan on their home because they don't have enough of a down payment. So the banks are getting free money. From us., Ultimately, right? Or from the treasury. So the banks are getting free money and some of these banks now we're looking for 20% down, again, which is what I had to do years ago when I bought my home. [00:10:27] I never only ever bought one home. So man, things are going to be a mess. They are going to be a very, very big mess. Um. We'll see.  In the Financial times, many U S restaurant's highly likely to return the small business aid. I was kind of interested in article denied by insurance companies. LA restaurants are waging a high stakes battle in court now because they had coverage. [00:10:56] It was supposed to cover this stuff and did it? No. Okay. Um. The many privately owned restaurants are saying the Paycheck protection program fails to meet their needs. Oh my goodness gracious. Um. This is, it's very ill suited for their industry from my industry, for most industries. [00:11:19] Basically, if you're a big enough business that you have a full time HR department, an accounting department, you probably could get the paycheck protection program. If you're a small business like me. And things are probably not so good for you, so, huh, man. Anyway, stick around. We'll get into the tech. I promise you're listening to Craig Peterson here on WGAN stick around because we'll be right back. [00:11:55] It kind of sounds like the national restaurant association show here with Craig Peterson, on WGAN. And I was thinking about my, uh, my favorite local restaurant. I love Mexican food. I have ever since I lived in Californ-i-a all of those years ago, out on the left coast. My wife, in fact, the native born Californian, and it, uh, it, I'm, I'm looking at them saying, how are they surviving. [00:12:24] Cause we would go over there once a week at least, you know, taco Tuesday type thing and enjoy ourselves. Have a nice little family outing. I haven't spent a dime there in six, eight weeks. I don't know how long it's been. It's been a very, very long time, so I just don't know. Anyways, let's get in. Let's get into the, um. [00:12:45] The stories for today, and we're going to talk about something that I think is really, really important. Uh, and of course, what else should we talk about? Right? But, uh, we've got, yeah, that was a drum roll. We've got an interesting problem right now. There is a law on the books right now that are inplace and has been in place for about 30 years, and it has to do with the definition of hacking. What is hacking, and it made sense about 30 years ago. [00:13:22] Nowadays, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Because we've got these terms on websites. So for instance. We'd talked about two months ago about a company that was scraping all of the information they could find about us, including our, our pictures, our video, our voices. But primarily they were after our pictures and from every site they could get their hands on from any site whether or not they were violating the site's terms of service. And some of these sites have sued them, et cetera. They've been hacked, and I guess that's what happens when you become a big target. But where should it be going? What should we be doing? We've got a problem right now, and there's a lawsuit that's been initiated by a group of academics and journalists, and of course the ACLU is behind it. [00:14:18] And you know, most of the time I look at what the ACLU is doing and wonder what it is they're up to. In this case, I think they might actually be doing something right. Isn't that nice for a change. They're arguing. That having these investigations against racial discrimination in online job markets by creating fake accounts for fake employers and job seekers. [00:14:49] Is that something that should be done? Right? Leading job sites out there in terms of service that prohibits that, right? So users of these sites are prohibited from supplying fake information, and the researchers are worried that the research could expose them to criminal liability. Because they're posting these things on the site and then they're trying to analyze all things being equal. [00:15:14] Was this a case of racial discrimination? So in 2016, they sued the federal government, and they're asking for whether a decision based on what they're saying is the First Amendment that you could in fact do almost anything online and get away with it. Now, I, for instance, you know, I have been using fake information on websites for a very long time, so when I go to authenticate myself, you know, they'll ask, what street were you born on? What's your mother's maiden name? I always make stuff up for that and I record it. So that later on I can always dig it up because you know someone can go online, they can become your bestest to Facebook friend. They can look at LinkedIn, find out about you and your history. And the younger kids these days have all of the information online and will for their entire lives. [00:16:17] So I have always used different email addresses, different versions of my email address, completely different names made up everything. Now obviously. When it comes to an official thing, like a bank account or government stuff, I'm not lying about anything except for my authenticity to be able to log into the site. [00:16:42] So I'll give my correct social security number, et cetera, et cetera, when it is required, because obviously would be a violation of a law, but they're saying. That under this federal law that's out there, the computer fraud and abuse act, it's been around for 30 years. Would it be illegal to create these accounts where we're just trying to figure out, are these people discriminating. So there is a federal judge by the name of John Bates who ruled on Friday a week ago, that the plaintiff's proposed research would not violate the CFAA, the computer fraud and abuse act provisions at all. And he said that somebody violates it when they bypass an access restriction, like a password, but someone who logs into a website with a valid password does not become a hacker simply by doing something prohibited by a web site, terms of service. [00:17:45] So that I actually, I think was a good ruling here. Now from the ruling itself, criminal is criminalizing terms of service violations, risks, turning each website into its own criminal jurisdiction and each webmaster into its own legislature. Yay. At last. Right now, unfortunately, courts are disagreeing about how to interpret this. [00:18:12] If this law is around forever. In Oh nine the California federal judge, right? What else? Ninth circus rejected a CFAA prosecution against a woman who contributed to a, myspace hoax that led to the suicide of a 13 year old by the name of Megan Meyer. And in that, the prosecutors argued that they had violated my spaces, terms of service. [00:18:40] In 2014 the night circus, uh, rejected another prosecution based on terms of service violation. So obviously I'm in favor of this. They're kind of moving in the right direction. We've got the seventh circus, uh, ruled that an employee had violated the anti hacking law when after quitting his job, he wiped an employer owned laptop that contained information that was valuable to his employer. [00:19:08] As well as the data could have been revealed misconduct by this person. So I think most of the way we're talking about the courts coming down the right direction here, but, uh, I, I'm very glad to see this because you know, that I. Protect site against hackers and hacking, not just websites, but businesses, right. [00:19:30] Including a real enterprise is real big businesses and I've done that for years. Usually the smaller divisions, because even the public companies have their own it staff and you know, they hold it all very close to the chest. It's in tasks. I don't trust anyone else. Don't, don't go with that person. Don't do what they say. [00:19:50] Yeah. Right. Which is, or I kind of get it cause I'd probably be saying the same thing, right. Cause I know what I'm doing, but in many cases they're just trying to protect their jobs. So when I am. Doing this. One of the things we do is have a honeypot set up. So what happens is the bad guys get onto a network and they started attacking. [00:20:13] They're immediately going to get into the little honeypot and the honeypot looks like an unpatched system. Might be a Linux system. Usually it is, or it might be a windows system, and so they start hacking away at it. And that immediately just sets off a trip wire, right? Cause I know, wait a minute, wait a minute. [00:20:33] Somebody's breaking into this system. So we monitor pretty closely. We know what's happening on it. I basically, all of the time, and there were interpretations of that law that would say that what I was doing was illegal. It was part of security research, even going on to the dark web and downloading some of these databases of hacked accounts. [00:20:55] Passwords, usernames, emails, et cetera. Even going online, looking for my client's information on the dark web could be considered to be illegal, so we've got to update these laws. There's a whole lot more, obviously, that we have to update, but I'm glad to see some of the stuff coming down on the right side. [00:21:15] Hey, we've heard about companies moving back to the U S now because of the Ruan virus and other things China's been doing. To our U S corporations for years. Uh, did you know Apple is doing something completely differently to this year that will potentially get them out of China, at least for the most part, stick around. [00:21:38] We'll be right back. This is Craig Peterson here on w G a N and online@craigpeterson.com. [00:21:54] Hey, welcome back. Craig. Peter sawn here. Listen to me on w. G. A. N I'm heard every Saturday from one till 3:00 PM and on Wednesdays I'm on with Matt during the morning drive time. You can pick me up at about seven 34 or every Wednesday morning as we talk about the latest in the news of technology. Hey, you might've heard of Fox con they are a big company based in China. [00:22:26] They have offices while manufacturing plants, frankly, all over the world. They've got factories in Thailand, Malaysia, Czech Republic, South Korea, Singapore, and the Philippines. They also were talking about opening up some plants in Wisconsin. Apparently those never actually opened, but they are. Busy worldwide. [00:22:49] And Fox con is Apple's longest running partner in building I-phones and some of the other devices that China makes. I mean, that Apple makes or sells, right, because remember who makes this stuff anymore? Well, Apple hasn't been making its newest IMAX or not IMAX. I shouldn't say a Mac pros. Yeah. In the United States. [00:23:14] Again, not that itself, it's a contracted manufacturing company, but the Mac pro, the one that came on 2013 as well as the new Mac pro are entirely made in the United States. Now, when we're looking at things like the iPhone and some of these other devices, yeah, they are certainly manufactured by Foxconn in China. [00:23:38] In mostly in at Shenzhen China location, but in fact, key iPhone components, according to Tim cook, are manufactured in the United States and then shipped abroad. And then the devices are assembled by Fox con, and then there's another company called Pegatron in China. Bottom line. What they are doing and what Apple is doing is protecting its intellectual property. [00:24:08] And we've heard of this before, haven't we? Where companies are in China, China requires them to give all of their intellectual property to their Chinese quote unquote. Partner, right? And Chinese national has to have at least a 50% ownership in it. It's real problem all the way around, and when we're looking at what's happening with the iPhone in the manufacturing in China, things are going to be changing. [00:24:37] In fact, they're going to be changing for a bunch of Apple's devices, including some of their new Mac books. If you've ever gotten into some of the hardware details inside of. It's a Mac books and, and in fact, they're Mac computers. Over the years, Apple has gone through a few different CPS. They were using the power CPU while before that they were using the murderer, Motorola, the 68,000 based CPS and a very, just an amazing CPU. [00:25:07] I remember at the time doing some operant system ports to it. It was just amazing. And then they went to Intel and, um. After. I'm not Intel, I mean, power PC, which was an IBM design. Frankly, power chips are the most amazing chips there are. Uh, from a cost perspective and performance. It's just, they are absolutely amazing, but they run hot and they use a lot of electricity, which is why you don't want them in a lab. [00:25:39] Top and Apple was not, or excuse me, IBM was not able to deliver to Apple chips that would meet their power requirements and performance requirements. So Apple said, okay, well we're going to switch to Intel because Intel promised that they would be able to provide the faster chips and they run cooler, so they'd be better for laptops and things, and they started using Intel. [00:26:04] And Intel worked out okay. Right now, by the way, uh, Intel is losing the performance war to AMD advanced micro devices. So that's kind of cool to hear those, you know, those things kind of shift back and forth every once in a while. But Intel has been unable to meet Apple's delivery requirements, and Apple's have been pretty tough over the years. [00:26:25] Look at what Johnny Ives has done with some of the designs, but Apple says, Hey, listen, we need a. Perf performance increase in the processor and we want to choose less juice and give off less heat. Well, those things are all difficult to do for a microprocessor manufacturer. So what Apple decided they would do is they went to an open source CPU design and started with that base and went on from there to have some just absolutely amazing chip designs. [00:26:58] Now I, I love some of these designs and they're showing up. But in all of our I-phones, if you have an iPhone or an iPad, you're using one of Apple's chips. Uh, the age 12, I think is the latest one. I'm trying to remember, uh, the version numbers, but, but they're made by Apple quote, unquote. In the U S for the most part, certainly not in China, and they are very efficient from a performance standpoint. [00:27:27] They're very fast. So they've been doing a very good job with these. Now, I, I talked to a couple of weeks ago about how much an iPhone would cost if it was made in America, and I saw another study that came out last week, so I had to bring this one up because the other one. Wasn't that clear. They figured it would only be a hundred $200 more. [00:27:48] So Wes, what RAs? Why Lara? This is from fi.org. You'll find this article online, uh, which is the foundation for economic education. And this is an article by Mark Perry. He's saying that an iPhone that today costs about a thousand dollars if it were made entirely in the United States, if it even could be, because believe it or not, the United States has fallen behind. [00:28:21] In manufacturing technologies because we have blood, China get ahead of us. We gave them all this technology to start with. I've complained about that before too, and now they are ahead of us, so we don't even have the ability to manufacture these things here in the U S right now, we not only have to ramp pump, but we'd have to develop some new technologies and. [00:28:45] That thousand dollar iPhone that is assembled in China that has some component parts made in the United States would push the price of an iPhone components from about 190 $190 that's what it costs right now. Estimated, right? Apple doesn't release these numbers, but estimated to cost $190 right now, it would be about $600 if it were. [00:29:12] Made in the us. So if the materials alone are costing better than triple what it would cost in China, we could probably see a $2,000 iPhone. Now, do you remember that the U S is only bringing in 6% of the profits from iPhone sales? Two out of three iPhone purchasers are not based in the United States. [00:29:38] Now, that's a huge change from years ago when most of Apple's customers are in the U S but right now with the whole. A wound virus has been spreading in China. The app, the iPhone sales are way down, and that's probably also true of other countries as well. So this is going to be an interesting little battle as we go ahead. [00:30:00] But here's the really big news as far as I'm concerned, and that is. That Apple is going to start making the Mac book using their chip sets. So like these eight, 12, and other processors I've been talking about, they've got the, uh, a fourteens are the new ones that are coming out. I think I got that model number right. [00:30:27] But these are 12 core chips and they are actually. Two chip sets. There's uh, that, that are in one package. It's just amazing what they're doing, but some lower powered ones for doing things that don't need a lot of CPU power and some higher powered ones. And they're going to be coming out in the new iPhones and the new iPad, but they are also going to be coming out in the new Mac books now that. [00:31:01] Is amazing. 12 core CPU is aided by a graphics processor that is probably going to have its own collection of cores. This is amazing. If you look at the current iPad pro tablets that are using the eight 12 X and Z chips, we're talking about an Apple iPad pro outperforming. 90% of recent PC laptops, so this could be amazing. [00:31:31] Apple's moving this, some of this back to the U S and they're getting Intel out of the way, and I think that's a good thing, frankly, for Apple. But listening to Craig, Peter sauna, WGAN stick around. We'll be right back. [00:31:50] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Craig. Peter Assan here on w G a N having a good time today. Hopefully you guys are as well, whether you are kind of locked up in the home maybe or any central person like you, me and your, you're out and about and maybe taking a little time on Saturday too. Work in the yard. [00:32:12] I appreciate you all being with us today. I have just absolutely amazed here what Apple is doing and congratulations to them now once get into our hospitals cause they've been in the news a lot lately. You know, we've got people. Who will have the Woodlawn virus, right? Who have the symptoms of this coven 19, which is very bad. [00:32:39] And, uh, it's particularly bad for older people. We have seen now covert 19, the average of the average. Age of someone who died, what state was, it was like 82 I can't remember if that was a single state or if that was a Countrywide, but that is frankly, absolutely amazing. That means it is killing older people, but we're also seeing other symptoms. [00:33:07] Now we have, people are getting blood clots. You heard about that athlete that had to have a leg amputated. Again, it's absolutely amazing here. Uh,  hospitals right now, according to the New York times, this is from Wednesday this week saying that airborne coronaviruses detected and woo Han hospitals right now. [00:33:29] That is not good. Um. It's man. I'm just going through these articles. It just, it just, I shake my head, but we're starting to see some electric surgeries coming back to hospitals. Uh, most of these field hospitals that were set up or shut down. Down, they were largely unused and right here, according to the Bangor daily news on Wednesday, we've got two bankrupt main hospitals warn they could close in June if they don't receive stimulus funds and president and Trump has announced that, yes, indeed, our hospitals are going to get stimulus funds. [00:34:08] But if you heard me at the top of the hour, you heard. You heard me talk about how, uh, you know, we were promised funds too, and we just haven't gotten any. So it's, this is going to be a very, very big problem for us all. Uh, and when we're talking about hospitals, there's one other angle or that people just aren't paying attention to right now. [00:34:30] You know, w we talked about the ventilators. And there w there just weren't gonna be enough. Right. And here in Maine and all over the country, there were more ventilators than were needed. And that's true. New York as well. And come to find out, of course they sold 500 ventilators rather than maintain them. [00:34:52] And instead of ordering more ventilators, what did the government do there in New York? While they just commissioned a plan as to how they were going to ration them, who got. To die, right? That's socialized medicine for you. If I ever heard the definition of it, a total death panel, but the good news is we didn't need all of those, but we've got the internet of things and we've talked about it and I've talked about it in my tree trainings and we go into it in some depth. [00:35:21] In my courses, but the so called internet of things also extends to our hospitals. It's the internet of medical things, and these devices are going online. Hospitals and medical facilities are really starting to stare this in the phase. And I mentioned when I was on with Matt Gagnan on Wednesday morning this week, that there is a problem been around for a long time. [00:35:50] I have my first, in fact, a hospital chain as a client was 25 years ago. Maybe. And we were trying to clean things up for them, fix them, network stuff, put some security stuff in place. And what did we find? Well, those those machines, those hospitals, plus all of the clinics that were affiliated with the hospital had old hardware that they just weren't taking care of. [00:36:18] These devices that are controlling the systems in the hospitals. Everything from the air ventilation systems through. All of the medical equipment. Think about all of this stuff right from the, the drip machines, the Ivy machines, the ventilators, our the MRE machines, the x-ray machines. Some of these devices are running very outdated operating system. [00:36:46] Some of them are still running windows 95. Windows XP, windows seven none of which are currently getting patches or updates, and many of them were never intended to go on line at all. Think about that. When, when they were designed the windows 95 and XP. They weren't thinking about these things being hooked up to the internet or even other networks really. [00:37:13] They were just kind of standalone systems that sat in a corner and then the programmer said, Hey, listen, we can add, there's really cool feature. We'll tie them together. And so doctors can look at x-rays remotely. And so a system that was never designed with network security in mind all of a sudden had a network connection all of a sudden was being used online on a network. [00:37:35] In a hospital that had never set it up properly in the first place. I really wish more of these medical centers in the hospitals would call me because they need so much help, and many of them don't even realize it. They, these things have no cybersecurity protection whatsoever, and then the hospital networks are often not even segmented. [00:38:01] That's something I teach home users to do. So that's allowing attackers to enter anywhere in the hospital and move around so they can get to the billing. They can get to all of these machines there. Even being researchers that are saying they have seen hackers inside cardiac pacemaker machines. Think about that one for a little bit. [00:38:28] How about if it gets onto one of these machines that's running on an older version of windows or even a brand new one that hasn't been patched up and they get onto it to a hacker, it may just look like, Hey, this is just another windows 10 machine. I'm going to use it for Bitcoin mining. I'm going to use it for spreading ransomware around. [00:38:48] You think that might be a problem? So it is now Bitcoin mining instead of watching your cardiac rhythm. Right? And so when I was going to overheat, it's gonna use up all of the systems, resources. It's going to spread ransomware throughout the hospital. We've seen that again and again and again and again, and we've seen that again and again in , even in our state, New Hampshire has had this as well. [00:39:17] I talked to and helped a school district that had been nailed by ransomware and they decided they were just pay the ransom, which by the way. Tells the ransom Merz, Hey listen, let's hack them again and put another ransom on. Cause we know they pay the ransom right. So there's third problem the hospitals are having is with all of this vulnerable equipment. [00:39:40] They're not replacing them. They're not upgrading, and they're not patching them. And not enough of this equipment has been recalled by the manufacturers because the manufacturers have gone on to a newer model, Hey, listen, uh, no need to update that machine or buy a new one for only $50,000. So where are the manufacturers spending their time? [00:40:03] Where are they focusing their efforts? Well, obviously they're focusing their efforts on getting them to buy a new machine to design these new machines. It is a very, very big, big deal. Now, another one of the big attacks, most common, I mentioned ransomware when it comes to the intranet of medical devices, but. [00:40:26] The other big one is a distributed denial of service attack. Cause you remember these devices in the hospital are performing critical. Things, right? Very critical functions that, as I said, there might be running a cardiac machine on MRI. They might just be keeping track of doctor's notes, all of which are critical. [00:40:49] So if a nation state specifically targets an IV pump and changes the dose of medication, what do you think will happen? It certainly could happen, but the more basic thread is. These devices getting a denial of service attack. So the whole network at the hospital becomes overloaded and now nothing works at the hospital. [00:41:18] So there's, there are just the basic threats that aren't being taken care of. Ransomware, phishing emails, and these attacks are targeting the weakest and the oldest operating systems that are typically running on these devices and hospitals are top targets. Now, one of the big hacking groups out there that has ransomware all over the world said, Hey, listen, in this time of covert 19. [00:41:44] We are not going to be attacking the hospitals because it just isn't fair. And in fact, they have been attacking hospitals. They are the top targets still for ransomware because they're very vulnerable and they pay. And that's why, what was it, five years ago? Seven years ago? I designed a system just to, it's a small computer. [00:42:09] Based on a little in Intel Adam chip that sits in front of these devices for manufacturers, for controlling valves for more critical equipment. It just sits there. And it is a specialized firewall for that piece of equipment. So this is a problem. It's a very, very big problem in hospitals, frankly, are afraid to do anything because they're afraid they're going to get sued. [00:42:37] Their insurance companies are sitting there saying, Oh yeah, yeah, well, if you're going to do an upgrade, the equipment might not work. Properly and you might get sued. So we're going to increase the fees for our, for our services, for our premiums. Premiums are going to go up. Okay. So they just don't want to do anything. [00:42:58] And then you got the FDA right? Man, does this story ever end? And, uh, FDA is saying, Hey, listen guys, we're okay with you doing patches, the hospitals afraid of recertifying. And I love this quote here. Uh, it says it's a willful lie on the part of some stakeholders in the system that you can't update medical devices. [00:43:25] Why do you think that. W why do they think that? Well, bottom line is that. These device manufacturers are telling them, you can't update because your insurance premiums are going to get too high. The FDA says it'll have to be read, type accepted for use, et cetera, et cetera. But I want to let you know if you work for the medical community here at any level, the FDA. [00:43:54] Has post-market guidance that they issued in 2016 and in that, the FDA explained that while federal regulations require manufacturers to report certain actions, the majority of the actions taken by manufacturers to address cyber security vulnerabilities and exploits are generally not considered to be a type of device enhancement for which the FDA. [00:44:21] It does not require advanced notification or reporting. So some good news there, we'll let the hospitals know. If you're involved with this industry, guys, pull up your socks. Hire security specialist. Some of them have been doing it for awhile. That can really help you out because there's so much to know. [00:44:40] Hey, you've been listening to Craig Peterson and WGAN and online@craigpeterson.com stick around. [00:44:51] Hello everybody. Greg Peters song here. We of course are on every Saturday from a one until three and I'm on with Matt Gagnan as well on Wednesday mornings during drive time at about seven 34. I've been in the tech business now for many decades, and then the security business helping businesses secure their internet connections. [00:45:16] Really since 91 and I have quite a backstory, and one of these days we'll have to have to share it with you, but I'm a business guy and this whole security thing, you know, back in the day. I did not really understand security, probably like a lot of you guys and uh, but I was very, very technical. I had helped to implement a number of the protocols that are used on the internet and that was a big win for me because I was able to take what I knew, dig into it. [00:45:47] It took me a few days to figure out what had happened and then lock things down and I was kind of years behind at that time. Point because the, what I got, which was called the Morris worm, had actually been known for a few years before it hit me. And that was kind of a shame. So, you know, back then, of course you didn't have Google. [00:46:09] AltaVista wasn't around yet. None of this stuff was out there. We were using a gopher search engines, right. Or Veronica, Archie, Jughead back in the day, and trying to figure it out was really a bit of a chore. Once I figured it out, it was easy enough to fix, but I almost lost my business over that and that was a very scary occasion for me. [00:46:29] So I have really kind of dug into it, and I've been helping out a lot of businesses here over the years to help be secure, and I'm doing the same thing as well. For individuals. And that's what this show's all about, right? We're trying to help you guys out with that. Talk about some latest cool technology. [00:46:48] And, uh, I was so successful in being able to help outfit, I was even drafted by the FBI's InfraGuard program and trained, I've trained thousands of businesses literally here across the nation on what. To do in order to keep safe, and I continue to do that with free webinars, courses, memberships, all that sort of stuff. [00:47:10] Anyhow, if you miss the first hour today, I talked about a change here in the way criminal hacking is being looked at by our courts, and that's. Very good things about time. They changed that Apple is going to be selling max with its own processor starting in 2021. Say goodbye to Intel, and I would add to that. [00:47:34] Good. Riddens uh, also the internet of medical things. You've heard me, if you've been listening to me. Uh, you've heard me talk a little bit about the internet of things. Well, there's something called the internet of medical things as well, and that is frankly very, very scary. So that's how we ended up last hour. [00:47:56] And I want to invite everybody to go online. Go to Craig peterson.com you will see all of the articles I talk about today with all of the background. You can listen to my podcasts, you can watch my videos every once in a while. I even have some trainings. Up there, but if you sign up, you can get my weekly newsletter, which does contain all of that stuff. [00:48:19] Craig, Peter, sawn.com/subscribe so you can just get out your phone. It'll work on your phone. It'll work on your desktop, on your laptop. Craig Peterson. Now I saved Craig Peterson because it's an O. N it's not an E. N, it's N. O. N. Alright, so it's Craig, CRA, I G just like you'd expect Peter sohn.com/subscribe and I do not. [00:48:46] I do not pass to you. In fact, when I have something that I am launching, you know, a new, a new course, a new product, whatever it is, I will give you the option to opt out of that. If you're not interested in it, and I, I, you know, just click right there and you'll still get my weekly newsletter. But you won't hear anything more about that particular promotion that's going on at the time. [00:49:09] So I'm not like some of these marketers that just slam you every day. I don't even consider myself a marketer. Right? I'm a tech guy that happens to have something to sell, not quite the same thing. Anyhow. Um. Yeah, w and the plenty of free stuff. A lot of people just use the free stuff and that's all they need. [00:49:30] We have a report that's been in the media that I want to talk about right now, and this is a report about this so-called zero day exploit against iOS. Now, what is zero day exploit? Basically. Uh, what we're talking about when we say zero day means, uh, it's kind of like patient zero, who was the first person to get the Corona virus as an idea, right? [00:49:57] That's patient zero zero day here. When we're talking about some of these hacks means no one has seen this particular hack before, at least no one was aware of it. Now, sometimes the government agencies. Of our government and other foreign governments, we'll find something out. Of course they won't. Uh, they won't tell us about it. [00:50:20] Right. They'll just kind of use it. That has actually changed under the Trump administration. President Trump has been adamant that they share this information. I'm sure that keeping a couple of things back, but the NSA even has been sharing information about exploits that are going on. So we're funded about more and more of them, but in this case, there is supposedly an exploit that's out there in the wild. [00:50:46] And then the wild means it is being used. It has been seen out there. And this particular exploit is supposed to be used just by sending out a specially crafted, uh, email. Okay. And I'm supposedly, I saw another article that was saying, Oh, it's especially triggered SMS, a text message or message message or something. [00:51:11] So there's a San Francisco based security firm named Zach ops, and they said on Wednesday that attackers a dues the zero day exploit against at least six targets over a span of at least two years. Well. Now that's being disputed because Apple is certainly acknowledging that there is a flaw in the mail app, but it is a bug that causes the app to crash. [00:51:39] It does not give the bad guys access to anything. Basically. So the bad guys, certainly, yeah. They could crash your mail app and it's just going to restart automatically, or are you going to click it and it'll re restart right on your iOS device. But in this case, what we're talking about is something that's really a whole lot different, a whole lot worse, or is it frankly, right? [00:52:04] If it's not giving them access to your data. Is it really worse because it can't take full control of your iPhone, unlike what some of the media outlets were talking about. So Apple had declined to comment on the report, but they came out and they said that the bug posed a threat to iPhone and iPad users and there had not been any ax exploit at. [00:52:29] All in the statement they said, Apple takes all reports and security threats seriously, thoroughly investigated. Researchers report based on the information provided have concluded these issues do not pose an immediate risk to our users, and they go on to say that they found these issues in mail that. [00:52:47] Cannot bypass the iPhone and iPad security protections and no evidence that they've been used against customers. Now Apple's really good too about trying to track what is happening on phones. You might have noticed if you go in complaining about a problem with your phone and you go into the. Oh store. [00:53:04] They can look at logs on your phone to see if the app has been crashing, et cetera. So yes, indeed, they can check this out and take care of it. There have been a number of independent researchers that have also questioned the conclusion that zinc ops came to, and I think this is good. You know, you've got to be out there. [00:53:26] You've got to be talking about these things. Apple did respond. I like the fact that it was all public here. And that people were able to look at it and kind of figure out what was going on. Cause there have been exploits. We know that the WhatsApp app has been nailed a few times and I think part of the reason for that is WhatsApp is supposed to be secure. [00:53:47] Well, how secure is it. Really, and so they, the bad guys are constantly kind of going after it, trying to prove that it's just not secure at all. But really they identified a crash report. They found a way to reproduce the crashes and some circumstantial evidence. Told them that may be this was being used for malicious purpose purchase purposes. [00:54:11] Okay. Um, so, uh, anyways, that's where that stands. So what to do, obviously keep your software up to date. Apple is very good, unlike again, in this month. Microsoft's updates ended up causing serious problems. For some people. Apple's updates rarely cause those types of problems, and when we're talking about iOS, they just don't get any easier. [00:54:39] You can apply them very, very simply. In fact, they will usually, if you have automatic updates turned on on your iPhone or iPad at night, while it's sitting there on the charger, it's going to go ahead and update itself, upgrade itself, and then the next morning, Qatar, you've got the whole new operating system you had to do. [00:54:57] Absolutely nothing, which is, man, that is my idea of an easy time, and you've heard me before, I'm sure say don't use Android and people just, I ignored, I don't understand why. Right? Some of these people, like Danny, for instance, I'm thinking of, he follows. Everything I say to the T and it has saved him again and again. [00:55:22] In his small business, he has a franchise restaurant and you know, Oh, we'll see how the restaurant business does, but he's doing okay right now, but he still uses an Android phone and I don't get it. You know, I, I'm not really fond of. Any of these big companies, politics, you name the company, the politics are probably bad nowadays. [00:55:44] You know, it used to be assumed that, Oh, big corporations, they were big, they were evil, they were nasty. And if you notice the Democrats, now they're not talking about the evil millionaires. They're talking about the evil billionaires, because of course they're millionaires, right? To all of them, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, the senators out there in California, Feinstein and others. [00:56:06] But, um. You know, the these big companies, so many of them are so left-leaning. It drives me crazy, so I get it. If you don't want to use Apple stuff because you don't agree politically with Apple, I think that's an okay reason. But reality sets in. And you just can't continue to use Android. You really can't. [00:56:27] And if you can get off of windows, you should do that as soon as you possibly can. Anyhow, that's just my opinion. So stick around. When we come back, we've got more to talk about. Of course, we're going to get into a very kind of an interesting problem over at Amazon. You're listening to Craig Peters on a w G a N stick around. [00:56:50] We'll be right back. [00:56:55] Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. You can hear me, of course. Every Saturday from one til three. You also can listen to me on Wednesday morning. Yes, I'm on with Matt Gagnon. Did you know there was a morning show. Yeah. Drive time. So I'm on with Matt every Wednesday at about seven 34 for a few minutes to talk about the latest in technology news. [00:57:23] And of course we get to spend a couple hours talking about this in more detail on Saturday. Well, we just talked about this iOS zero day bug, and what does that mean to you? Doesn't look like it's totally legit. Big, big problem with our medical devices and hospitals and otherwise they are still running windows 95 X P if you can believe that 2007, none of which are supported anymore. [00:57:55] And, uh, you also went into what. Uh, what really has been put in place out there to allow them to do upgrades and updates, but there's so much obfuscation. It's crazy. And then courts violating a site's terms of service is not criminal hacking. So if you missed any of that, you can find it online. You can just go to Craig peterson.com/iheart I also post this whole show as one podcast that you can find on your favorite podcast platform, whatever that might be. [00:58:31] By just searching for Craig Peterson. Or the easy way is go to Craig peterson.com/itunes or if you're like, hi heart, you can go Craig peterson.com/iheart or Craig peterson.com/soundcloud et cetera, et cetera, okay? But it's all out there and you can get the whole show, all kinds of. Put together for you, which I think makes some sense. [00:58:57] Amazon is the 8,000 pound gorilla out there. They have been just really taking over the online retail space in a very, very big way. In fact, the Amazon counts for about one third of all. US-based internet retail sales isn't that huge? Can you imagine having that kind of market share? One third of all of it, but it didn't get there entirely on its own in case you're not aware of it. [00:59:31] Amazon has about half of their items being sold by small businesses, by third parties, and you might've noticed that on label sometimes where the third party, uh, will. Ship has something to you directly, and yeah, it looks like an Amazon box and me having an Amazon tape on it. But in reality, what we're seeing is a return address that might not be Amazons. [00:59:57] Well, these typically are smaller vendors, so think of that for a minute. We've got about a third of all retail sales going through Amazon and about half of those coming from small vendors. That's a very, very big deal. And with the businesses the way they are today, you might want to consider. Should you be selling online? [01:00:24] A lot of companies abandoned eBay because of their pricing strategies and they moved over to Amazon and it's been okay for them over there. But I want to tell you about the problem that's happening right now at Amazon. And this is something I've seen over the years that has bothered me a lot. And I had over the years, a number of friends that had started software companies and some companies that I didn't even know that were. [01:00:57] Well, you know, I knew all of them, but I didn't know the owners. Then they had database software, they had scheduling software. They had a lot of different things, and what Microsoft would do is they'd, they'd keep an eye on the market and they'd say, Oh wait, wow. Wow. That database is doing really well and it's winning. [01:01:18] A lot of DTA deals that our database software's not winning. And the allegations were that what Microsoft was doing was kind of being a predator here cause they would go to the company that had the database software and uh, chat with them and see if the company would sell out at a reasonable price. [01:01:42] And then this is so anti competitive. It's crazy. But then. If that company didn't want to play ball, like sell themselves for super cheap to Microsoft, well, Microsoft was accused of doing and what Microsoft hadn't been convicted of doing in courts now is they would announce a product that competed directly with the small guy. [01:02:11] And wait to see who asked about it. So Microsoft would say, yeah, we have a database product for small businesses. Very easy to use. Drag and drop interface. Everything's going to be great. You are going to love it. And then Microsoft would sit there and see of companies would start calling them and say, when's your product going to be available? [01:02:34] What am I going to be able to do this? Well, in some cases they waited a year or more. And they never ever came out with a product. But what do you think happened to Mr. Small guy out there, the small business that had investors where the owners, they were founders had invested thousands of hours into it, maybe their entire life savings. [01:02:58] Well, people, companies, and I experienced this personally, companies who would sit there and say, well, you know, Microsoft is going to come out with something here. I want to see what Microsoft does. And so that small company. W is now out of business because what are they supposed to do? People aren't buying, you know, their models were based on so many sales and that was based on the people liking their product and talking about it and the marketing dollars they were spending. [01:03:29] But that money was going down the drain because Microsoft was there saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll, we're going to do this. Yeah. Yeah, us, us, us. And so they got sued again and again, and they lost in court, but it was still cheaper for them and then made more money. Think of the billions in cash some of these companies are sitting on and, uh, that is a bad thing to do. [01:03:52] It really does hurt commerce. It certainly is not free trade. Uh, of course, we live now, I think in a largely a crony capitalist system. And they played that game. They played it very, very well. Well, back to our friends here, Amazon. But yet, you know, those allegations are still floating by the way, about Microsoft and many other companies that appear to be doing that thing in. [01:04:18] Here's what happened to them. Amazon. What happened was Amazon started looking at the merchants that were selling third party stuff on their websites, and the wall street journal has a great report on it right now because Amazon has its own in house brands. So it's making itself a direct competitor to many of these merchants who rely on the Amazon platform to reach. [01:04:50] Consumers. So now you've got your little product. Amazon is selling something that's similar to yours, or at least competitive with yours, and that's bad enough. But the wall street journal reviewed some internal company documents that showed that Amazon executives were asking for and getting data about specific marketplace vendors despite corporate policies against doing so. [01:05:23] Despite the fact that Amazon had testified in Congress that they never did this. And according to the wall street journal, more than 20 former employees told them that this practice of flouting those rules was commonplace. We knew we shouldn't, but at the same time, we're making Amazon branded products and we want to sell them. [01:05:48] So here's what they were doing. Amazon was looking. At what was being sold out there. And this one example that was given was something that I've bought. It's a car trunk organizer, and apparently Amazon employees access documents relating to that vendor's total sales. What the vendor paid Amazon for marketing and shipping and the amount Amazon made on each sale of the organizer before the company. [01:06:20] Then unveiled. It's own similar product. They're getting around the rules here. W we'll get into this when we get back. I'll tell you about some of these Amazon brands that you might not even be aware are Amazon brands. You're listening to Craig, Peter sawn here on w G a N every Saturday from one til 3:00 PM cause stick around. [01:06:43] We'll be right back. And of course there's a whole lot more to come today. [01:06:52] Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig, Peter sawn here. We were just talking about our friends at Amazon. I remember getting really, really upset with them. I sent them a a note, uh, years ago, decade or more, certainly more a go because Amazon decided it would patent something that it called one click ordering. [01:07:17] As though one click ordering was like some major leap forward and, and, and I couldn't believe the us patent and trademark office actually gave them a patent because I knew other sites that were doing it as well. It. This whole thing is totally upside down, not just with Amazon, but now you can get patents on almost anything and not, not just, I'm not just complaining about business processes here, business process patents, which, uh, I don't like. [01:07:48] Uh, but all the whole patent world, the whole thing has been changed, turned on its head with the new patent laws. It has gotten even worse, not better. Yeah, it makes it easier for the government, but in reality, it I think is hurting a lot of businesses. So let's see what we're talking about with Amazon here, where Amazon was combing through the data of these third party vendors that make up for about 50% of the products sold on amazon.com. [01:08:20] And these employees were accessing the data about what the vendor's total sales were, and they were getting around the rules by bending the concept of what's called aggregation according to the wall street journal and well, Amazon says that it did not access individual seller data. It did create reports of aggregate. [01:08:45] Seller data. And if a pool is large enough, that wouldn't be a problem. So if you've got 200 vendors selling iPhone cases, okay, but the example that the wall street journal is using here is have a trunk organizer. So in reality, how many trunk organizers were there at the time? So this pool of vendors, very, very small. [01:09:11] And when you're talking about a group of two entities, uh, okay, it's aggregated, but what's that telling them. So what Amazon had done then is they said, Oh, wait a minute. This is a very profitable niche that people who are using our services to sell it are in. So your small business, you come up with this idea of a trunk organizer, and it's better than any trunk organizer that's ever been made, and you're going to add two extra compartments to it. [01:09:43] I don't know what you're going to do right. You're going to make it very firm, very strong, and it can fold up, fit into a corner. And so you have to make some prototypes. You have to figure out, how do I do this? You might make a trip or two to maybe heaven forbid China or Indonesia or some other country, right? [01:10:02] Other than China, please. And you go out there for a few times, you. You end up paying, you know, easily 10 $20,000 just to have a stamp made that can stamp out your little product there for the insides. And then you got to get another vendor that had ships to that, that takes the material, sows it all together, and then can ship it out. [01:10:25] And then you have to have a minimum order sitting there in Amazon's warehouses ready to go. So you're into this one a hundred grand, maybe more. Plus all of the time that you spent doing it, which now is lost opportunity costs because you weren't doing something else while you were trying to design this chunk organizer. [01:10:50] So you have spent life savings on this. You've put it together. If you ever watched shark tank, and you look at some of these people, right? Most of those businesses fail. Even the ones that make it to shark tank. So you've done all of this. You had hoped that your business would succeed. Well, you're selling it. [01:11:13] It is succeeding. It's doing well. Maybe you've made back $50,000 of that a hundred thousand you put into it and maybe you get up to a hundred thousand Amazon notices. Whoa, this guy's making a lot of money. Maybe we should get into that trunk organizer business. In fact, we know exactly which models, which colors, which fabrics of his trunk organizer are selling. [01:11:43] Hm. So Amazon then takes the idea and runs with it. Amazon now has more than 145 private label brands. This is a huge, huge number. There is a website out there called this Justin. TGI research and they have a list of these brands that Amazon has. I'm scrolling through it right now. I had no idea. Most of these were Amazon. [01:12:18] You know, you've heard, I'm sure of Amazon essentials. That sounds like an Amazon brand, right? It is. Amazon basics. Okay. Those are obvious. But there's others like kids' clothing line scout and RO women's clothing, brand, Hayden Rose or furniture line stone and beam. Those are Amazon brands and you can't tell by the name, and I'm looking at this list over on this, Justin, and they all have their own logos. [01:12:54] You just, you would have no idea. Brass tacks leathercraft makes leather belts from, guess what those are? Those are Amazon chains. Ditch charming. Dove. Um, Ken sounds like charming Charlie, doesn't it? Hm. Uh, charm. Z silver. That sounds like chirpy. Oh my gosh. Amazon exclusive. Uh, and then charming Charlie's is out of business. [01:13:20] Right. Did you ever go there? My, some of my daughters used to love it cause you can get all of these little hoopy things and necklaces and stuff, but it goes on and on. This is, this is ridiculous. There's gotta be way more than what, what Tai and what wall street journal is reporting anyways, so they're saying those private labels account for 1% of Amazon's total sales. [01:13:45] That was according to a report last September, and some former employees apparently told the wall street journal that they are operating under the directive that Amazon's private label sales should be. 10% of the company's retail sales by 2022 so there you go. You know, we talked about the contentious relationships with eBay in the sellers. [01:14:11] Contentious relationships with Amazon in the sh in the sellers, the European union's competition Bureau opened up an investigation against Amazon. This is a very, very bad thing here. Uh, antitrust subcommittee chairman, David Sicilian from Rhode Island in house judiciary committee chair. Gerald Nadler. [01:14:36] We're pretty upset about this quote. This is yet another example of sworn testimony of Amazon's witnesses being directly contradicted by investigative reporting. So yay. At least somebody is doing investigative reporting out there. So I don't know. What are you going to do? I was upset with Amazon. I told them I'd never do business with them again, and then probably about 10 years later, I started doing some business with them again because it was the only place I could buy some of the things I wanted to buy, but they've been using this merchant data not good. [01:15:10] Not good at all. Well, we have a couple more cool things. We only have a minute or so left here in this segment, but let's get into this very, very quickly. At least get started. This is from dark routine.com they have a lot of great articles, but consumers and small to medium businesses are likely to fall. [01:15:31] For Corona virus scams. It said, now, I have seen a lot of emails coming in to me from companies saying that they can get me some of these loans. Uh, I don't think so. Uh, and I have, I saved some of them. I should put those out in my membership site or in the newsletter. You can see some of them do some training

Show Notes Are Dead. Long Live the Full Transcript. What do you think?----------Jeff Medders: All right, everybody. We'll come back to a another episode of home row. And I'm your host, Jeff Medders. And on today's show, I have author Wesley Hill on the program. He's written all kinds of books and it's just a joy to have him on, especially we're going to talk about, talk about his new book and the Christian essential series, the Lord's prayer, a guide to praying to our Father.[00:00:36] So Wes, how are you, man?[00:00:38] Wesley Hill: I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me on the show.[00:00:40] Jeff Medders: Awesome man. Now, what part of the United States are you in? Are you in the United States? I know you got your PhD from outside of the United States, but I think you're in Pennsylvania, right?[00:00:47] Wesley Hill: That's right. Yup. I'm just outside Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.[00:00:50] Jeff Medders: Okay. I've been to Pennsylvania. Well, I guess a couple. No, at once, for sure.[00:00:55]I went to red lion, Pennsylvania.[00:00:58] Wesley Hill: I'm not even sure where that is, to be honest. I don't, I don't know my own state [00:01:02] Jeff Medders: It's, it's up in the Amish country. And I remember going there with, some friends of ours that were missionaries in Thailand and they were in town. And we went to go visit them and we went to the Amish market and all this stuff, and I bought kangaroo jerky.[00:01:19]I dunno where the Amish are getting kangaroo jerky from, but it's there and fun fact that if you go to the Amish markets and stuff, you can't use your debit card or credit card[00:01:32]Wesley Hill: Hmm.[00:01:32] Jeff Medders: cash only.[00:01:34] Wesley Hill: I would believe that.[00:01:36] Jeff Medders: That's something you want to, you want to prepare for that ahead of time, which I did not.[00:01:38] Wesley Hill: That's right. [00:01:39] Jeff Medders: not, but thankfully they had an ATM nearby,[00:01:41] Wesley Hill: So probably really beautiful country to drive through too, I imagine.[00:01:45] Jeff Medders: Yeah. Very cool. the horse buggies and all that good stuff. And then there was a few guys on rollerblades, which was interesting.[00:01:51] Wesley Hill: Oh, right. Okay.[00:01:53] Jeff Medders: so we had to talk about the, you know, it's not a motor, it was a wheels. They were okay with that and OS different stuff. It was interesting.[00:01:59] Wesley Hill: Interesting. We'll come to Pittsburgh sometime, but we're, we're pretty fun city too.[00:02:03] Jeff Medders: Okay. I'll put it on the list now before this turns into an Amish podcast. so Wes, why don't you tell the listeners out there who you are, what you do for work and all that good stuff.[00:02:14] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Great. well the reason you're having me on your podcast is I am a writer. I've just written a new little book, for Lexam Press on the Lord's prayer. And, I really enjoy writing. I've written a handful of books, as you mentioned. so I view that as part of my calling, part of what I do. but for my day job, so to speak, I am a seminary professor.[00:02:34]I teach at a small, Anglican Episcopal seminary here in Ambridge, Pennsylvania, which is just Northwest of Pittsburgh. And, I've been here, I'm in my eighth year now. and I teach in the Bible department. I teach New Testament.  I'm also ordained, I do some preaching and, lead Sunday school at my church. so I'm, I'm pretty involved in different kinds of ministries, but that's, that's me in a nutshell.[00:02:57] Jeff Medders: Yeah. So when, when you're not lecturing, Oh, let me ask just for fun for me. What, what textbook are you using for your new Testament survey?[00:03:04] Wesley Hill: You know, I'm test driving the new N.T. Wright? One, that he coauthored with Mike Bird. That's come out from Zondervan. It's huge. It's huge. When it arrived on my doorstep, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like a brick. so we'll see it. It looks really beautifully illustrated. And, I assigned.[00:03:21] Emails [00:03:21] Jeff Medders: from the Edge is a cool feature.[00:03:23] Wesley Hill: Yeah, exactly.[00:03:24] Exactly. So, you know, right. It's so engaging in the way he writes. I imagine it will be something that will grip a lot of the students, but, yeah, I'll let you know how it goes.[00:03:32] Jeff Medders: I bet. Are you having them read the whole thing?[00:03:34] Wesley Hill: They're not going to read every single page, but they're going to, they're going to read all the chapters devoted to different new Testament books for sure.[00:03:42] Jeff Medders: that's right. So I'm planning this year, I'm just, I want to read all of the condensed version of Wright's works and then, you know, maybe a couple of the New Testament, you know, summary parts, but then save those for when I'm about to preach through a book or goes or go study a book.[00:03:57] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Great. I mean, I think that that series of books, you know, the, for everyone, commentaries are such a gift to the church. I've heard of so many Bible study groups using those and finding them really beneficials. Yeah. Plenty. A lot of good things to dig into there.[00:04:11] Jeff Medders: Okay, cool. So, so when you're not lecturing and you're not writing and you're not, you're not preaching, what, what are you doing for fun?[00:04:18] Wesley Hill: You know? So I have a unique living situation. I live about five blocks from the seminary campus where I work, a Trinity school for ministry. It's called . And, I share a home with a married couple and their two children and a lot of evenings you'll find me playing with their kids. They're, they're my godchildren.[00:04:36] I've gotten to really enjoy kind of a domestic life. I love cooking now. And, I've, I've loved cooking for a long time. It's been a way to kind of unwind after a day at the writing desk or something like that. but it's, it's a joy to be doing it, you know, with people I love.[00:04:49]now and, and sharing daily life with them. So yeah, lots of, their, their kids are now, three years old and six months old. So a lot of, playing, playing house and playing with dolls with the, with a three year old girl with Felicity, and, changes in diapers with Solomon. So, yeah, it's, it's been really life giving for me.[00:05:07] I'm single, and it's just been great to kind of be integrated into the life of a family in that way.[00:05:12] Jeff Medders: Yeah. That's very cool. Very cool. So how did you know that you wanted to become a writer or that you were a writer? Did I come to you in a, in a vision, like maybe a, a sheet. It's not full of lizards and reptiles, but of keyboards and, you know, journals --take up and take up and, right.[00:05:32] Wesley Hill: Yeah, well, you know, I, I mean, I, I'm not sure I ever like set out to become a writer, quote, unquote. But I, I do vividly remember, you know, at age, gosh, I was probably 11 or 12 when I just started writing short stories on my family's computer. and I actually wrote a novel, a detective novel, mystery, novel, whatever.[00:05:51] Over 13. I was so proud of it. I, I still do. I'm, I'm scared to go back and read it, although it'd probably be funny. Yeah. so I, you know, and I remember, I remember submitting a short story to, did you ever read clubhouse magazine put out by focusing on the family? I submitted a short story to them one time.[00:06:09] And so I think I always kind of had the itch to like, you know, it's a strange thing. I think so many of us, right? But fewer of us have that urge to like, share it with other people and put it out there. And I think I have always kind of had that urge to, to share my writing with others. So, so maybe there's a part of me that has always wanted to be, you know, a writer as, as a, as a job.[00:06:29]But yeah, so it, it, it sort of emerged out of, I developed a real love for theology and, and just good writing, when I was in high school and then I went to college at Wheaton. And, so I, I kind of developed a sense of calling that I'm, I want to be a teacher in the church. I want to be a theologian.[00:06:47] And I think the writing piece of it kind of grew out of that for me. But I've always just enjoyed, I was actually talking to a writer friend yesterday about how it seems like a lot of Christians care about getting good ideas out there, but maybe fewer Christians kind of enjoy crafting sentences and playing with words.[00:07:06] And I've always enjoyed both aspects. You know, the, the big ideas of theology, but also just trying to find exactly the right way to express them in a way that's going to be engaging and interesting. And, So, yeah, I think that's kind of how it started for me[00:07:20] Jeff Medders: What's some of  your writing process like, cause obviously like a lot of writers that, you know, were not full time, you know, none of us, none of the people I've interviewed I think, or none of my listeners, you know, weren't evangelical writing.[00:07:33] And so this is not the kind of writing where you can live off of this stuff. the royalty checks are maybe, you know, we can go out to eat. Like, let's, I'll treat some guys to, you know, some coffee this weekend or wouldn't, you know, sometimes they're very, very puny. Sometimes they're, sometimes they're nice, sometimes they're not.[00:07:49] But you know, you've, you're teaching, you're, you're pastoring. you've got your church community. I mean, even just got all kinds of stuff. So with all of that, in the, in the balance, how do you find time to, to write.[00:08:03] Wesley Hill: Yeah. You know, I started, I started my academic career thinking that, Oh my gosh, I've now landed like one of those coveted jobs where I get a couple of months off in the summer and that's going to be like my writing time. I'll, I'll get so much done. And I also get, you know, a big chunk of time off around Christmas.[00:08:20] That'll be another. Big productive time. And I've realized for me, like that's if I pin all of my writing hopes on those kind of big blocks of time. It just never, it never happens. You know, something will come in to kind of crowd it out. So it has to be more of a weekly or even daily discipline. and I, I sort of learned that.[00:08:38]you know, early on, I remember Tim Larson who teaches church history at Wheaton, telling me, I asked him, you know, how have you managed to write so much while being a full time teacher at Wheaton? And he said, the key for him is just not, not counting on the holidays, not counting on the sabbaticals, but just kind of chipping away at it in small chunks week by week.[00:08:57] And I think that's been true for me, you know, so I, I, I'll get up early and right before I have to go to class or I'll come home and, and you know, so, so typically at my seminary, we teach in three hour blocks. So like this morning I was in the classroom from nine to noon, and you know, now I'm here at my home office talking to you, this afternoon, but, but you know, I have a couple of hours after this and I can, I can get some writing done there.[00:09:20] So I think it's. I think it's just finding those blocks of time, and, and then guarding them. So I'll actually put into my calendar, you know, this two hour chunk this afternoon is blocked off as writing. And then when I, when I see that, I know I can't schedule something else during that time. And, yeah, just kind of, kind of safeguarding those, those moments that you're able to block off, during the week.[00:09:41] But, but it is, you know, I think, I think there's no way around the fact that it is a sacrifice. I mean, you're giving up. Time to do this, you know, if you care about it, so you're waking up earlier than maybe you would be comfortable for you normally to, to, to try to write something. so yeah, I don't, I don't know that that's anything profound, but that's, that's kinda how it's worked for me.[00:10:01] Jeff Medders: No, that's great. I think just that little bit of advice just to even put in your own calendar, like writing, and to actually do it and now take appointments, not, you know, not fill it up and to do it. That's[00:10:10] Wesley Hill: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. To to, to sort of give yourself permission to say, this is worth doing. Therefore, I'm going to like say no to, to other appointments that might arise in order to safeguard that time. I think that's important. Okay.[00:10:23] Jeff Medders: Do you always write at your home office there, your home study or do you like you go to a coffee shop or seminary library or what's, what's[00:10:30] Wesley Hill: You know, I, I find that I, I find that I really can't go to the seminary because there's just so many interruptions, like, you know, I mean, colleagues and students will come by and I, and I love that, you know, but I basically ended up just talking the whole time rather than getting work done. So I will. I will go to Starbucks and write.[00:10:46]a lot of my best writing that I think just happens here at my home office. You know, I've got a, I've got a little space on the third floor of our house where I have all my books and you know, a desk where I can kind of spread out. So that seems to work best for me.[00:10:58] Jeff Medders: What's your, what's your go to order at Starbucks?[00:11:02] Wesley Hill: You know, I'm very boring. It's just a tall, dark roast. [00:11:05] Jeff Medders: pretty boring.[00:11:08] Wesley Hill: But the price is right compared to their other[00:11:10] Jeff Medders: yeah. No kidding. If you want to, if you want to get adventurous, and you haven't tried it yet, the nitro cold brew is [00:11:19] Wesley Hill: amazing.[00:11:19] I do. Yeah. So in the summers I do like the cold brews, and you're right. The nitro is pretty great.[00:11:24] Jeff Medders: I guess it is cold up there right now. Here I'm in. I'm in Houston, and it's actually cold right now. And so I'll tell you what it is for us. It's 53 degrees right now,[00:11:33] Wesley Hill: Oh, wow.[00:11:34] Jeff Medders: is, this is like freezing, you know,[00:11:37] Wesley Hill: Yeah, yeah, exactly.[00:11:38] Jeff Medders: big, I took my son to school this morning.[00:11:39] Everybody's in big puffy jackets and, and hoodies and all this stuff. So this is blistering cold.[00:11:45] Wesley Hill: I grew up in Arkansas, so I get[00:11:47] Jeff Medders: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. Yeah. So I love the nitro cold brew with the salted foam. Oh man, that's amazing. And I got Matt Smethurst at the gospel coalition. I think he's full on addicted to it now as well.[00:11:59] Wesley Hill: Oh, great. Great.[00:12:01] Jeff Medders: So, so when you're riding there at your home office, are you using music? are you, you know, I like to pop a vinyl record on if, you know, if I feel like I'm going to be in the, in the groove there, what are you doing?[00:12:10] Wesley Hill: Yes, sometimes. it has to be instrumental music for me. so I, I, I have been on a big Max Richter kick lately, listening to his sleep album, which is just a masterpiece, I think. so yeah, sometimes I'll have music on in the background. Other times I'll just be so much in the zone that I kind of just, I need no distractions at all, including instrumental music.[00:12:30] But yeah, maybe I'm unusual in that way. I'm not[00:12:33] Jeff Medders: No, I don't think so. I've heard from all kinds of, you know, people the way they do, like, yeah, I have no music.[00:12:39]or they use the, there's a website called the coffeeivity where it has like the background, the ambient noise of like a coffee shop.[00:12:47] Wesley Hill: Yeah, yeah.[00:12:48]Jeff Medders: Don Whitney was actually the one that showed me, showed me that I think, there's people using, yeah, I like jazz music. So I like to, I like to write to jazz. right now I have the, the hub of Hubbard over there on my, on my record player on my turntable.[00:13:01] Then I've got, usually Miles Davis, Thelonious monk. Some somethings are the stranger things soundtrack, like something's going to go up there.[00:13:08] Wesley Hill: Oh, yeah, yeah,[00:13:09] Jeff Medders: that'd be fun to listen to. Now. Now let's say you're going to sit down to write. cause now I, I know you, you write books, but I feel like I've seen you write articles at websites every now and then.[00:13:19] Am I mistaken?[00:13:21] Wesley Hill: No, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've, I've written for Christianity today and first things and the now sadly defunct books and culture, my favorite place to write for no, no more. But yeah, so I try to, I try to write it for some periodicals as well.[00:13:35] Jeff Medders: Okay, so let's, let's think about the periodical step before we get into book writing. And you're going to sit down to write an article for a magazine for a website. What is the, how does it begin for you? Do you, do you outline just on a piece of paper? Are you crafting in Evernote? What's the, are you writing in Microsoft word are like, what are you doing?[00:13:53] Wesley Hill: Yeah. You know? so it often begins with me, noticing a hook for an article. Like I'll, I'll, I'll see a news piece that triggers some line of thought and, and, you know, I carry around a mole skin notebook and I'll, I'll sometimes just jot down a quick. Outline for a piece, and then I'll, I'll come back and open up Microsoft word and, and, and just start writing.[00:14:17] You know, I'll have the outline in my head and sometimes it really changes, you know, as I go on, I kind of try to, follow what the piece seems to want. if that doesn't sound too esoteric, but just kind of kind of seeing what. How it goes from that point. And, you know, I think, I think I've had to learn, you know, so I got a PhD in, in academic biblical studies, and there's a certain kind of style that's expected for that genre, but it's a very different thing to write for a website or, or a periodical where you're, you're really, Trying to hold the reader's attention. you know, you can't count on the reader's attention in the way that maybe you can, if you've written a monograph that you know, someone who's researching this topic is going to want to read you, you actually have to earn, the reader's trust and convince them that this is, this is worth.[00:15:02] You know, worth their time. so yeah, for me, it often begins with, with a kind of hook, whether from, from pop culture or something. I'm reading something I've heard, in the news and, and I'll often try to kind of reflect on it theologically or bring some kind of, historical or biblical depth to it, in that sense.[00:15:22] But, but yeah, so I think it, and I, and I wouldn't claim to be an expert here, but, but it's a very different. Kind of thing to be writing for a popular audience versus an academic audience. And I'm, I'm still, I'm still trying to hone my craft in that regard.[00:15:36] Jeff Medders: Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I can't imagine the challenges, for all that. I, I mean, I, I can't a little a tad bit, cause[00:15:43] Wesley Hill: Hmm. Hmm.[00:15:44] Jeff Medders: written two books, solo, coauthored one, and then, Writing for a popular level, like my most recent book is humble Calvinism.[00:15:52] That came out with a good book company. And so, you know, writing with with some snap and crackle and pop and some wit and punches is a lot of fun. And then. I'm getting ready for PhD stuff. And so I had to do some, some work before that. And yeah, getting, trying to get more, cause I've never done heavy academic writing or having to, and some of the pre work for that that I've had to do is like, Oh my goodness, this[00:16:18] Wesley Hill: Yeah, yeah.[00:16:19] Jeff Medders: way different.[00:16:21] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, having said that, I suppose the flip side is, you know, you read a really well crafted piece of academic writing. it's a reminder that not all academic writing has to be cold and boring and clinical. You know, they're, they're writers. I'm thinking of people like Richard Hayes who write beautiful prose, in a, in a very academic way, or, or NT Wright would be another good example. You know, someone who, who, who writes really well in that mode, so, so, yeah.  I'm always . Just kind of trying to beat the drum for, you know, more of more of us who are trained professionally in the Guild of biblical studies or theology should care about good sentences.[00:16:55] And like you say, the, the, the snap and the, and the crackle and the whipped and those things.[00:16:59] Jeff Medders: Yeah, like Kevin Vanhoozer, he's gotta be one of my favorites.[00:17:02] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Our Robert Jensen, the late Robert Jensen, just,[00:17:06] Jeff Medders: John Webster. I'm like, man, they're just a joy to read. and they just offer so much. And Michael Bird too. Michael Bird is hilarious. And so, yeah. Bird and Writght together. I mean, that's like peanut butter and jelly. This is great. Now. And writing your, your latest book, the Lord's prayer, a guide to praying to our father.[00:17:26] So. When this, when this project was you, you signed on, okay, we're going to, I'm going to do this book. Was there ever a moment of regret and, and, and this way. I may, I got to try to say something new and fresh on the Lord's prayer. Like, you know, there's tons and tons of books, like, so man, that, that challenge, to, to tackle the Lord's prayer is as a, as a daunting one for such a small, such a small section in the new Testament, you know, nestled there in the sermon on the Mount.[00:17:56]yeah. So, so tell us about, you know, kind of the process for writing this book and, Then I then I'll, I'll follow up, but just also kind of what your, what your, what your, what you're hoping that disciples of Christ learn as they read this book.[00:18:08] Wesley Hill: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Well, I guess maybe the first thing to say is I didn't set out to ride on the Lord's prayer. I didn't imagine I would ever do that. I mean, I've, I've certainly taught it and continued to teach it at the seminary where I, where I work. but I didn't never imagine writing a book on it.[00:18:22] Like you say, there's been so much that's been written. but Lexam Press, as you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation today, has a new series they've launched called Christian essentials. And, they're, they're short little books that are designed to be used in churches, you know, in Sunday school classes and kind of catechetical settings.[00:18:42]so the first one came out, a couple of years ago, I think now the Apostle's creed by the Osprey. The Australian and the alerts and Ben Myers. and, so I, I got an email from, from an editor there, and he said, Hey, would you be interested in contributing to this series? And we talked about what I might do and kind of settled on the Lord's prayer.[00:19:00]so it felt a little bit like, you know, in my, in my tradition, each Sunday we're, we're given the text to preach from, we don't, we don't choose them. You know, the lectionary chooses them for us. And it sort of felt a bit like that, you know, here I am being handed this text that I didn't necessarily imagine I would be writing on that.[00:19:15] And now, you know, do I have something to say about it? And, yeah, I mean, you ask about regret there. There was a moment early on in the process where I went to the library and, I was, I was kinda had my breath taken away by just how many individual volumes. Have already been written, all the words, prayer, you know, stretching back to the very earliest days of the church.[00:19:35] I mean, you know, we have, we have discourses on the Lord's prayer from origin and Augustan and, you know, it's just such a, it's such well-trodden ground. So, you know, I think, I think there was that, that initial kind of shock. And then I thought, you know, every generation needs to ponder this again. So it's, it's not a problem that there would be more, more reflection on the Lord's prayer.[00:19:57]you know, it's, it's one of those texts that's so foundational for the faith that w we will never not need more meditation on it. so, so yeah, that, that kinda took away some of the pressure and, you know, I was kind of. Praying about what, what, what direction do I need to go here? What angle do I have?[00:20:14] And, and, you know, I remembered, several years ago, George Hunsinger the, the reformed theologian at Princeton, published a little book on the beatitudes and he, he, in the preface, he says he was kind of in a similar place. He had been asked to give these lectures on the beatitudes and he didn't know kind of which way to go.[00:20:32] And then he said, you know, what would happen if I, if I approached them Christocentricly and said, you know. Each of these beatitudes is a, is a window into the character in the work of Jesus himself. And and so he does that. He just kind of goes through a beatitude after beatitude and says, how does this point to Christ?[00:20:48] And I thought, you know what, what, what if I approached the Lord's prayer that way? Obviously Jesus is giving us this prayer for us to pray, but. You know, before that or, or above that or beyond that at all of the, all of the clauses, all of the petitions point to him and tell us something about him. And he, he embodies the prayer.[00:21:06] I mean, he even even literally praise, praise portions of the prayer, you know, throughout his ministry. like in the garden of Gethsemane, he says, thy will be done, you know, which is straight out of the Lord's prayer. So he himself is embodying this prayer and, and once I kind of. Once I kind of realized that was going to be my theme, it became much easier to kind of get into the prayer from there.[00:21:25]Jeff Medders: Yeah, man, that's, yeah, that's so beautiful. It reminds me of when, you know, I had Jen Wilkin on the show and you know, she's written written books on the attributes of God, and asked her that is similar.[00:21:35] Like, Hey, you know, AWP, you got AEW tells you, I mean, you've got a holiness of God, RC Sproul, you know, all kinds. So like, why, again. yeah.  the next generation, [00:21:45] Wesley Hill: right.[00:21:45] Jeff Medders: this era of, of disciples who they're not going to go pick up Origen. They're not going to go pick up Augustine. I guess then are[00:21:51] Wesley Hill: Although they should.[00:21:52] Jeff Medders: they should.[00:21:52] Yeah. They'd be so blessed to it, but yeah, to be ends, maybe some people will be introduced to, to the Lord's[00:21:58] Wesley Hill: that's right. That's[00:21:59]Jeff Medders: through this[00:22:00] Wesley Hill: And that's. No, I should say that's the only thing that made me excited about this series is when, when Todd Haynes at Lexan, was pitching it to me, he said, you know, we, we want these books to be, people's introductions to some of the tradition of the church, you know, so he said, feel free to draw on the church fathers and the Protestant reformers, and, you know, the, the, the, the really great Christian writers of the past.[00:22:20] And I said, yeah, I mean, that's really exciting to think about a contemporary book being used. As a, as a gateway into some of these treasures of, of centuries past.[00:22:30] Jeff Medders: Yeah. I love it. I think it's great. Was there, were there any parts of the book that you found maybe one, one chapter to be more, more challenging than other others that you can remember?[00:22:42] Wesley Hill: You know, I found the, the, the petition lead us not into temptation or save us from the time of trial. You know, it gets, it gets translated in different ways. I found that really challenging. you know, partly because it's been in the headlines, it's actually been in the news because Pope Francis, you know, is supposedly advocating this, this change in the petition.[00:22:59] Because, you know, we don't want to imply that God is the one who leads us into temptation. And so I just, I, I struggled with how to, how to kind of address that in a way that wouldn't be too technical. but that would kind of lead people into the heart of it. And, and, and again, you know, Jesus himself, he, he says to his followers, you know, they're right before he's arrested in the garden of Gethsemane.[00:23:20] He says, pray that you will be spared from the time of trial. So he's, he's teaching them exactly how to pray this and what it means to pray this. And, and, so I, I, I wrestled with how to go about that, and I think I'm kind of happy with the result, but it was, it was a really challenging chapter to write.[00:23:38] Jeff Medders: I love, I love the Lord's prayer, obviously, for, for all kinds of reasons, but there's one element of it that I just have really come to appreciate, recently as I've been preaching through the gospel, according to Matthew[00:23:48]You know? And Jesus tells them to pray like this.[00:23:52] Wesley Hill: Hmm.[00:23:53] Jeff Medders: so what he gives them doesn't even take 30 seconds to say.[00:23:59] Wesley Hill: Yeah.[00:23:59] Jeff Medders: And I think sometimes, and we're know trying to follow Christ and everyone laments, you know, their their prayer "life".  Everyone wishes we had more robust and longer prayer times and longer seasons and prayer, which opposite.[00:24:14] We see awesome modeled by the Lord Jesus. But I just find a. A peculiar comfort that he says, pray like this, and he gives us a 32nd short[00:24:24] Wesley Hill: yeah, yeah,[00:24:25] Jeff Medders: to really just validate all those times where we just say, I don't even know what the brother, than just Lord help me, or, God just bless me today. I need direction. I need guidance. And we feel like, ah, the shortchanged prayers, like I'm so unspiritual, but Jesus gives us a good model here.[00:24:41] Wesley Hill: That's right. Well, and what a contrast to, you know, we, we have these examples in the gospels of the religious leaders of Jesus' day that he's disputing with, that seemed to love these very long theatrical kinds of prayer. And, and, you know, Jesus is offering something really simple as a contrast to that.[00:25:00] And like you say, there's something comforting in that.[00:25:02] Jeff Medders: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Now, you've written, a lot, lots of theological works and, and, and magazines and articles, periodicals and, and all that kind of good stuff.[00:25:12] And you've also written on the Trinity, Paul and the Trinity. Was that your dissertation or was it just another academic venture?[00:25:19] Wesley Hill: Yeah, no, that, that book was a revised version of my doctoral dissertation, which I completed at Durham university in the UK, so yeah.[00:25:27] Jeff Medders: great. Now, so what are, so how come, let's, let's go Trinitarian. How come the, the Trinity isn't like an Apple, and are like an egg or like H 2 O I mean, I just don't understand. [00:25:40] Wesley Hill: Yeah, yeah. Gosh. I mean, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not going to say I would never use one of those analogies, but they're, they're so, they're so fraught with potential for misunderstanding. Exactly.[00:25:52] Jeff Medders: Yeah. I tell people at our church, you know, we didn't know theology class and stuff. I just said, the reason why we can't find and apt analogy for the Trinity is because there is literally nothing else like it. in the universe. and heaven on earth and above the earth and places invisible, and visible.[00:26:08] There's nothing else like the Trinity. So, so outside of the, just destined to crumble apple analogy and egg analogy and all that stuff. What are you would say some of the major, I guess short-sightedness of Trinitarianism, today and maybe you see it with students or, or maybe just the way we think about the Trinity, that you wish, pastors and writers, and church leaders, small group leaders, Bible, women's Bible study leaders,  maybe, you know, could grow and shore up in.[00:26:40] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Boy, that's a really good[00:26:42] Jeff Medders: Yeah. Not, not to be too broad or[00:26:45] Wesley Hill: Yeah. No, I think, so, so I'm, I'm, I'm currently reading through for the second time, a really beautiful book volume, one of systematic theology by Catherine Zonda rager, who's kind of working in the reformed, tradition, kind of, kind of working with Carl Bart and how he modified the tradition.[00:27:04] And. she's clearly, you know, Trinitarian in this volume, but she, she talks about, how she kind of gets worried sometimes that the way modern theologians treat the Trinity as if it's like the only Christian doctrine. Like everything is Trinity. And she's, she's kinda calling us back to recognize the, the fundamental.[00:27:25] Oneness and unity of God. You know, so we, we confess God existing eternally in three persons, but we, we confess one God, there aren't three gods. you know, we, we use this analogy of three persons in a dance or facing one another to try to, you know, get some PR. Just on the Trinity. But ultimately we're talking, like you say, about the transcendent reality of God, which even into all eternity, we will never plumb the depths of, you know, I, I love, I love Jonathan Edwards, vision of heaven that will never get to the end of exploring new, new beauties in God.[00:27:59] You know, we'll, we'll never comprehend God fully. so I think, I, I think I would, I would want to say to pastors and Bible study leaders who feel like. Wow. The tr, everybody's talking about the Trinity now. The Trinity is so important. I have to really know all the ins and outs of all the doctrinal controversies, and I have to, I have to always be speaking in like a, a communal idiom.[00:28:21] Like God is a community of persons. You know, I have to, I have to always be thinking that way. I think there are some dangers there. And you know, I think we need to remember that. we're, we're, we're using the language that God has revealed to us in his word of Father, Son, and Holy spirit. But that does not mean that we're talking about something that we would know of as a, as a community of, of three separate individuals.[00:28:43] You know, we're talking about one God. we're talking about the one God of Israel who's now been known to us, been revealed to us as, as Father, Son, and Spirit. And I think, I think the other thing I would say, honestly, when I teach the doctrine of the Trinity, you know, in, in, in, in church settings and Sunday school settings and things like that, I try to remind people that you may not know all the technical terminology that the logins use for it, but you are already a Trinitarian if you pray as a Christian, I mean to, to bring this back to the Lord's prayer. You know, if you pray the Lord's prayer, you are already participating in the, the mystery of the triune God. Because what you're doing is you're calling out to God the Father in the name of, God, the Son whose words you're using.[00:29:27] You know, he's the one who gave you the words of this prayer to pray, and you're being born along and carried along by the energy and power and prompting of the Holy spirit. so. It really, you know, the, the doctrine of the Trinity is an effort to say theologically what has to be true, if, if that lived experience of prayer is, is real and true.[00:29:48] So, so the doctrine in a sense is there to clarify, it's there to kind of safeguard and to ward off error. But actually the, the getting the doctrinal formulations, right, is not the main event. The main event is actually this. This, this relation we get to enjoy with God through, through price and the Holy spirit.[00:30:06] You know, this relation of intimacy and prayer. yeah. So I don't know if that's helpful,[00:30:10] Jeff Medders: Oh, that's good. Yeah. Amen.[00:30:12] Wesley Hill: that,[00:30:13] Jeff Medders: Amen. Amen. When, let's say maybe a student, I'm sure you read and you get to grade all kinds of papers and, and you've seen good papers, you've seen good essays, you've seen really bad ones. what, what are some things that you would tell to a student you would tell to a, a blossoming writer?[00:30:29]Hey, do these two to three things. and I think you're really grow as a writer.[00:30:34]Wesley Hill: Hmm. Yeah. So I think, I think the first thing I would say, and this, this comes straight out of my own autobiography. I mean, I, I, this is how I feel like I learned to write is, is find the best writers, you can and read them. just, just immerse yourself in, in good writing. and ask yourself, you know, what, what, what makes it tick?[00:30:55] I mean, I've, I've literally like grabbed, an Alan Jacobs essay some sometimes, or a James Wood essay, and said, man, the prose is so good. Let me actually just. Pay attention to this paragraph, like how did they structure it? Here's one long sentence with a couple of dependent clauses. Here's a shorter sentence.[00:31:09] You know, like, how did they do it? How did it work? So I think just, you know, reading a lot, is key. And, you know, I, I think none of us should be so arrogant to think that we have. Something to say, unless we're filling ourselves up with, with good, good writing, you know, good, good thinking. I think that good writing often begins with, with receptivity, you know, with us, with us, receiving, with us, taking in, before we have something to offer in writing.[00:31:36] So, yeah. And it, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be, I think sometimes students feel intimidated. Oh, there's so much good writing in the world. Like, you know, where do I even start? But I would say just, just, you know, to borrow a line from Alan Jacobs, read at whim, you know, read, read what strikes you, read what grips you.[00:31:52]and, and, and the more you read, I think it will, it will help your own writing. So, so be a reader. I think it would be the first thing. And, now the flip side of that, the second thing I would say is, I have a lot of students who. Frankly, kind of clutter their essays with quotations from other writers.[00:32:10]Jeff Medders: takes up space for the page count[00:32:12] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Well, exactly, exactly. And, Hey, I'm, I'm an offender myself. I, I, my editors regularly have to trim out quotations from others for me. But, but I would say, you know, don't plagiarize, but also just don't, don't rely on other words to fill out your argument. You know, you try to figure out how to say it in your idiom.[00:32:32] with your voice and you know, certainly pay your, pay your intellectual debts by footnoting the people that you know have influenced you and shaped the argument that you're, that you're writing, but, but try to find your own voice and, and that, that only emerges through practice. You know, you have to write and rewrite and rewrite.[00:32:48] And, so yeah, those are, those are a couple of things that I say to my students that maybe it would be helpful for your listeners too.[00:32:56] Jeff Medders: totally. What are some, some, some of the people that you just love to read? And you mentioned like good reading, good writing. you know, a couple that you can like, man, I love their, I love their writing.[00:33:05] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Yeah. You know, someone I have just admired more and more in recent years is the way that the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, writes for popular audiences. I mean, he's, he's long been known as a, as a very serious academic theologian, but he's published, you know, volume. Sermons recently and just these little books.[00:33:26] He has a little book with urbans called being Christian and a follow up volume called being disciples, and they're so winsome to me because they're, they're obviously built on a lot of research and a lot of deep learning and study and prayer, but he writes so accessibly, like he throws out the academic jargon.[00:33:45] And he just, he just writes like he's sitting across from you at a coffee shop talking with you. And I, I just am kind of in awe of that, you know, as someone who. you know, one of the things that getting a PhD does is it, it, it kind of invites you to write in a very jargony style. and, and for someone who's, who has gone through that kind of training to then be able to say, no, I'm not going to do that.[00:34:05] I'm going to, I'm going to write in a way that's more accessible. It's, it's, it's both like really instructive for me. And it's also really inspiring. another writer who I just hugely, hugely admired just for the, the sheer. A beauty and zest of his sentences is Francis buffer. he's written a great little kind of apologetic for Christianity called, ironically, unapologetic. And he's recently published his first novel, called golden Hill. and he's just an absolute delight to read. So he's, he's a, he's a Christian and the church of England. He, he was an atheist for many years and kind of came back to faith. and he's told me that he's working on some, some more Christian writing, more explicitly Christian writing.[00:34:44] So I'm, I'm really looking forward to seeing what that will be in the years to come.[00:34:48] Jeff Medders: Yeah. Very cool. Well, yeah, listeners, be sure to go to the show notes there and you'll see links to Amazon and you'll find, all of, of, of Wesley Hills books there, the Lord's prayer, Paul and the Trinity, spiritual friendship and more, you'll, you'll find everything there. and Wesley, if  people wanted to keep up with you on social media, where would you tell them to go? If[00:35:10] Wesley Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm still hanging out on Twitter. I can't seem to quit it. So, I'm just Wesley[00:35:17] Jeff Medders: Twitter to break up with me first. I need you. I need Twitter to quit me[00:35:20] Wesley Hill: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But I try to, you know, if I write something online, I try to post it there so you can find my, my writing and things there. and I also have a little, my own little blog is Wesleyhill.tumblr.com.[00:35:33] Jeff Medders: Thanks so much for coming on the show, man, and just giving your wisdom on writing. It's a really beneficial and I'm really grateful.[00:35:42] Wesley Hill: Well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation.[00:35:45] Jeff Medders: Great, and as always, listeners remember, let's just keep writing. 

After Episode 12, Charles is out sick, Tyler is nowhere to be found and James is stuck in Las Vegas. So Wes has to improvise...Join Wes, Alaskan Sports Analyst Zayne Kermode (Special Guest KassiusWaterson for the second episode in a row), Dakota Superfan, Dakota Bruce White (Played by Special Guest BoomerangBadger) and the latest player to join the Grand Rapids Dragons, Kova Lewdko (Played by J-Fu) as they try to keep it together in this very special episode of FSN.Topics Covered:- Nina Lime's retirement.- The Gold Coast Dragons finally win their first ever FAFL Premiership.- Rocco McManus wins the 2018 C.J. Willing Trophy.- The 2018 UFFL Draft- The 2018 FBA Draft- and much moreMusic Credits:More Than A Game - Chris DohenyFanfare for the Common Man - Emerson, Lake & PalmerThat's the Thing About Football - Greg ChampionMike (Alternative Theme to MNF & Theme for NFL Primetime) - Edd KaleoffRoundball Rock (The Theme to The NBA on NBC) - John Tesh

After Episode 12, Charles is out sick, Tyler is nowhere to be found and James is stuck in Las Vegas. So Wes has to improvise...Join Wes, Alaskan Sports Analyst Zayne Kermode (Special Guest KassiusWaterson for the second episode in a row), Dakota Superfan, Dakota Bruce White (Played by Special Guest BoomerangBadger) and the latest player to join the Grand Rapids Dragons, Kova Lewdko (Played by J-Fu) as they try to keep it together in this very special episode of FSN.Topics Covered:- Nina Lime's retirement.- The Gold Coast Dragons finally win their first ever FAFL Premiership.- Rocco McManus wins the 2018 C.J. Willing Trophy.- The 2018 UFFL Draft- The 2018 FBA Draft- and much moreMusic Credits:More Than A Game - Chris DohenyFanfare for the Common Man - Emerson, Lake & PalmerThat's the Thing About Football - Greg ChampionMike (Alternative Theme to MNF & Theme for NFL Primetime) - Edd KaleoffRoundball Rock (The Theme to The NBA on NBC) - John Tesh

Dylan writes "Wes, I want to tell you about an experience that I had with Bigfoot around Lena Lake in Washington state in the Olympic National Park. It was during a camping trip that I had with my dad and the interaction occurred while we were sleeping in our hammocks. We both awoke to what I first assumed was a bear because of the breathing noise it made. It wasn't until I looked through the gap in my tarp that I realized that the creature was standing and had arms. This camping trip was cut a little short because of some other concerns that we had while we were hiking. My dad and I only spoke once about this the next morning and after he told me that he was convinced that we had a bear problem I decided not to tell him what I saw. Shoot me an email if you'd like to hear more about the experience and why we decided to cut our trip short. To this day I haven't told anyone about the encounter because I've always thought of Bigfoot as a dumb joke and I never wanted to sound like a hypocrite to my friends."   My second guest is Joe. Joe writes "Hi Wes, I’m from Ohio. I’m a huge fan of your show and I have been wrestling with the idea of mailing you and telling my story. But I guess if I’m going to tell anyone (outside my family) it would be you. Im an avid outdoorsman and have been spending as much time in the woods hunting, fishing, and hiking since I was six years old. My brother and I started out as our fathers hunting dogs, tromping on brush piles kicking up rabbits and pheasant for our dad and I’ve been hooked ever since. My Bigfoot story starts a few years back when we started hunting a new lease. Our second season in, It started out with hearing what sounded like someone talking far off in the woods , but you just couldn’t make it out. Which seemed odd but there are some(not many) but some people who live around the area. I brushed it off the first time, then a few days later my brother and I went hunting again and I heard the same thing, I was beginning to wonder what it was and was going to tell my brother about it, but I didn’t have to say anything to him. When I came out of the woods that evening he meet me at the truck and the first thing he said was “did you hear those people talking?” Not wanting to tip my hand I said I thought I did but couldn’t make it out,,, and he said “yeah same here. But it got kinda close and it was like they were talking gibberish!” That ride home was spent talking about what we both heard and then I introduced him to ur show. He wasn’t sure what he wanted to believe but he was about to get on board really soon. We both hunt pretty often and two weeks later we had both been to the woods multiple times and each had a few more “odd” things go on. A few more talking episodes a whoop or two a rock clacking incident, a few weird things but nothing that was definitively anything. All could possibly be explained away essentially. Then one morning about 3weeks after the initial incidents I had a work commitment and couldn’t join my brother in the woods. At about 530-6 in the morning I get a call from my brother, hoping nothing went wrong as I knew he’d be walking into his stand I answered and he immediately sounded upset. After a few minutes of calming him down, I finally got it out of him that something had “screamed at him as he was almost to his stand”. My brother is a tough guy, always was the bigger brother, my protector. And I had never heard him sound as scared as he was in that call. He told me it was like nothing he had ever heard before, it sounded like it was wanting to rip him apart he said. He also said there was something that sounded like grunting and growling together after the screaming, he said he could feel it shaking in his chest. He wanted to run, and hide all at the same time. He chose getting up in his stand and waiting on the sun to rise. He called me from his stand. He made me stay on the phone with him until he was ready to walk out.. I should probably mention that this is taking place in mid October. Ohio’s hunting season starts the last weekend of sept and my second time in the stand(which was day two of the season) is when this all began. It had been a pretty wet year so the majority of the leaves and foliage were still hanging on. My brothers stand was in a pretty thick area of our property. So as I tried to keep him calm and quiet and have him listen for things moving around him. Suddenly as we were on the phone he heard something and shushed me and said he thought he heard something. It was approaching that point in the morning when the woods seem to suddenly appear b4 ur eyes, that special morning time. Suddenly he panicked and said something exploded out of some brush about 75yds away and sounded like a freight train going thru the woods,, luckily going away from him and not towards the car. He waited till he couldn’t hear anything else and high tailed it outta there. A few days later after the shock of it all kinda subsided we went back to our land and tried to find some signs of the thing. Other than a few broken branches there wasn’t much and needless to say my brother, who I credited for even going back, wasn’t wanting to stay real long. So we got his stand and left the area. We stayed outta the woods for a few days, but the rut was about to start and we couldn’t stay away forever. We’re just to big of hunters and as I was thinking about it and discussing it, my brother and I convinced ourselves that if whatever made those screams wanted to hurt him it could have done whatever it wanted. It was probably just a warning. So we decided to give whatever it was that side of the property and we’d move to another part of the lease and just be careful. So back to the woods we went. A few hunts later, about a week or so, I was in my stand enjoying a beautiful afternoon. Now the woods at this time end of October early November are starting to thin out a little bit. It was one of those days when a strong breeze makes it look like it’s snowing leaves. It was about the last hour or two of the day when I heard it again,, the chatter. Only this time it was a little higher pitched than I remembered. I was on full alert at this point, then I started to hear something that sounded like it was approaching,, but it just didn’t sound right.. now my stand sits on top of ridge there’s about 30yds of flat(that is loaded with oaks) then it goes into valleys on either side. On my left which is the side my stand is on,, on the hillside there is two natural shelves one about 20ish yds down (which by the way the bucks love to cruise and scent check) and another about 50-60yds down. I can always see the closer shelf but the further one down is hard to see because of all the brush. But I do have two shooting lanes cut down there for gun season. Anyway just laying out what I’m looking at. So like said I could hear something coming my way but sounded weird. As I’m studying the woods the chatter and sounds start to become clearer. The chatter sounded like two monkeys chitchatting and the sounds seemed to be coming from the up in the trees and something walking on the ground. Suddenly I swore I could see the trees moving out in front of me to left. And it seemed as soon as I thought I was seeing that, I heard a noise I never heard in my life. It was like a grunt and huff and deep bark all rolled into one. And after that everything went silent. It was eerily quiet, no sound no movement nothing. Sat for what seemed like an eternity, probably two minutes lol,, but then the wind started moving and as a bigger gust came along the leaves began snowing again and I heard it again only in two tsk tsk sounds and at that point I heard some limbs breaking and what sounded like two tree stumps landed with two distinct thuds and was followed by two clearly running down the hill sounds. I never saw what made that noise but definitely sounded like two separate things running away and wasn’t bounding away like deer or anything else in the woods I had ever heard b4. Those ended kinda quickly. After the initial shock of that my attention immediately turned to what made the deeper grunts and tsk sounds. It sound like it came from the lower shelf but out in front of me. I studied and studied the woods for anything!! Any sort of something wrong in the woods, any sound any movement anything. Then the usually bane of my existence in the woods, the squirrels that seem to constantly run all around my stand came again. One of those furry bastards came from the other side of the flat and started down the other side towards the sounds. I was looking at the squirrel,, staring in the direction of the noises when suddenly the squirrel, which had got pretty close to where I thought the sounds came from, shot up a tree and immediately began barking his head off. As I again began studying the woods I caught the slightest movement.. a movement that changed my life. I finally remembered I took my crossbow that day instead of my usual compound, so I slowly raised and looked through my scope and saw it. A hand, just a hand that was wrapped around a big oak holding on. I stared at it and stared. Not believing it at first I looked off the scope blinking and looked again and it moved. Repositioning itself very slowly and methodically. I stared into that scope looking on both sides of that tree looking for what that hand was attached to. When suddenly very slowly and methodically a face began to creep around the tree looking directly at me. I was frozen and knew that she was looking at me and immediately knew by her expression that she knew I was seeing her. She looked panicked for a split second then immediately withdrew her face. At this point I’m in a state of disbelief not believing what my eyes just saw. It was dark skinned and had longer hair hanging down on the face but not very much hair on the face. I continue to stare down at the tree. When she moved her face back she also pulled her hand back. I sat there looking intently for what I instantly knew what I had saw. There was no mistaking it. Finally the long wait was interrupted by a loud clacking sound. Like someone taking two rocks and banging them together rapidly. It came in three quick bursts and was followed by a quick higher pitched whistle. This definitely got my and the attention of the mother that was below me. She made a sound like she was shushing the little ones down the hill. Or what I assume was the little ones. She then peeked her head out from behind the tree and was looking at me again. I instinctively lifted my bow and looked down at her and her face had taken on new much more fierce and clearly was not happy I was there and I assume wasn’t happy I was so close to her and her babies. She then stepped from one tree to another,, to another every few minutes whenever the leaves would start falling heavy again. I’d catch glimpses of her and see her for a second or so. she was about 7ft tall and had a bigger but still somehow lean build. I could see breasts on her, which is why I keep calling her mom. Another long pause with her outta sight, but I knew she hadn’t left the area. The exact spot she was in she would’ve had to either drop down a weird drop off which I felt I woulda heard, go back the way she came, or cross thru one of my shooting lanes. I was scanning the area with my scope looking for anything and that’s when she stepped into the lane and turned to face me. she was about 80-100yds or so away, and when she did this I was looking at her through the scope and I regret doing that now. I don’t know if she took it as aggression but as she stopped and turned she stood there for a sec and then got into a (for lack of a better way of saying it) an aggressive stance and began to growl and show her teeth to me and took two or three steps towards me. I lowered my bow instantly and even went as far as to hang it up on my extendable hanger. As I did that she stopped gave me one more mean look and walked briskly away. I could hear her moving down the hill, I then heard a louder whistle and heard the two (I assume babies) start moving down the hill away from me. They cleared about 400yds of downhill in a matter of seconds and when I could barely hear them I heard a loud grunt and suddenly a giant pop and crashing. Sounded like a larger tree being pushed over and snapping. I felt very shaken and extremely unwelcome instantly. After the woods settled down for a second and I was able to shake the shock and shakes enough to climb down from my stand and made the walk back to the vehicle ASAP. On my way home I tried calling my brother but he and his fiancé were at a function and he wasn’t able to answer me, so I left him a message and just hoped he would call me back. He unfortunately didn’t and the next morning he went hunting and went down the hill and past where I heard the Bigfoot exit the area I wAs in the night b4. On his stand he finally took some time to check his voicemail and heard my abbreviated story and on his way out was intrigued, searched around for a lil bit, and saw a tree that was broken and fallen. I’ll include a picture he took of the tree. It’s a tree that for no other reason should have been broken or damaged, as it was a perfectly healthy tree and there were no storms or anything else that could have done what happened to this tree. It has been two years since this has happened and I and my family have still been hunting this land. We have been extra careful and have adopted a live and let live attitude about this property. I and my brother have each shot deer and left them as “presents” for the Bigfoot. We love this piece of land and we also have our children who we bring with us to hunt (but we never let them hunt alone) and we can’t help but be hunters and enthusiasts about the search for an unknown species. As we’ve hunted over the last few years we have both shot deer and have left them over night, only to find significant blood trails that lead to pools of blood, hair everywhere, but no deer. We looked on these as “peace offerings” and haven’t ever pushed the issue on finding these deer. We have always had an extra agenda on our minds, and we have had a few more experiences (also floating lights which we were able to get a pic of one) and “things” go on.. but nothing like what I saw that day. I believe that our land is more of a summer into fall location, bcuz as soon as our land loses its leaves and we get into full winter the activity drops off and as full winter hits we lose all activity. We are pretty close to the Tappan Lake region(like two miles or less) which has had its fair share of sightings and claims over the years. And is about 20miles from the famed salt fork state park. I am more than a believer, just like you Wes. I am “knower” that we as humans share this land with an unknown biped. I also believe that our government is definitely aware of these creatures and is actively protecting them, monitoring them, and possibly even protecting and possibly moving them as they see fit. I’ve saved this last bit for the ending of my message to you as it may be the most unexplainable part of my experiences. This past fall I was in my stand for another hunt when I heard a helicopter approaching. Odd, but not totally extraordinary. But as it came closer I could see the heli beginning to slow down about 3/4 to 1 mile away and began slowly circling a smaller in size area. Suddenly the chopper blades became extremely loud and making an odd but very loud, bum bum bum slow and steady sound as it circled and began lowering. As it started to drop out of sight all of a sudden there was no sound anymore!! Even though I could still see the heli for a few seconds b4 it dropped out of visuals. And when I say no sound I mean no sound whatsoever! Then there was about a 5min gap of zero sound from the area where I knew the helicopter had circled down. I was dumbfounded by all of this, and as u know 5mins in the woods can seem like a day when exciting things are going on. When all of a sudden the extremely loud bum bum bum erupted again and I saw the heli rise up from the same spot. It lasted for about 30 seconds as it slowly rose and circled again then the sound of regular chopper began again and the heli moved around behind and I lost sight of it, but could still hear it and even though I couldn’t see it the loud bum bum bum sounds came and went again where I couldn’t see it. Only this time I heard something else. As the loud noises came the second time I heard some loud huffs and smaller scream/whooping noises accompanied by crashing and what sounded like something throwing something big and some more crashing noises from out in front of me. For some “visuals”.... the heli came from my back and to the left to out in front of me to the left. It then circled back from the same way it came,,, my left and circled behind me to 45degrees to my rear right shoulder. The noises I heard came from in front of my right shoulder about 45degrees. Just so you can picture it...... Now my rational thought immediately tried to explain this away as maybe there was an emergency that an emergency rescue or life flight was being executed. That seems logical as there are boaters, hunters and outdoor enthusiasts in the area. So I began to research that. I have friends who work at the two closest hospitals that would and are able to accommodate life flights and they both looked into the matter and neither had any flights come in within a week b4 or after the date in which this happened. So I struck out to try and find another resident of the area that had heard or saw anything weird. It had been about 4-5 days since the incident and a few people had heard something weird but no one close to where I knew the heli had went down. The area I saw the noise come from was particularly weird. I knew there was a home pretty close to that area and so I went there to try and start a dialogue. I started out as “neighbor” who had just got permission to the neighboring property and was wanting some hunting and property line info. The man and woman were extremely nice and were more than willing to help. We chatted for a about 10mins when I started to put out there that I was hunting another property close by. At the first mention of that there demeanor instantly began to change. We had ventured about 100yds or so from their house as we were chatting. And as i saw their attitude change I immediately decided to drop the bomb on them. I said I was hunting and had saw a helicopter circling around close to their property and they immediately shut down!!! They started walking back to their house and I kept right with them and began asking every question I could about seeing it hearing it, what they saw and everything else I could. They didn’t answer a single question. They just kept saying they didn’t know what I was talking about and were actively trying to get away from me. I went as far as sticking my foot in the door to keep them from shutting it in my face. The last thing I heard from these people was “we didn’t see anything, and if we did we wouldn’t tell you!!!” This obviously piqued my interest quite a bit. But I’ve yet to get any farther with anyone else around the area either....??? So Wes that’s my long story. Sorry for the lengthy message but as I was writing you it just kept coming out, and believe it or not I’ve left out some stuff. If you’d like to chat I’d be happy to, if not I understand. I’m sure you get a lot of people that contact you. Im just happy that there is someone like you who does what you do and helps people out as much as you do. You truly are a much needed outlet for people like us who come away from these encounters and “strange things” not knowing what or how to feel or deal with the stress of it all. Thanks again Wes have a great week."

This is The Do It For Yourself Podcast.  Each week I sit down with someone who is doing it for themselves and chasing a dream they just couldn’t suppress.  This is often speakers, entrepreneurs, or athletes.  They all share one thing in common, they are overcoming challenges and never giving up.  Someone who is Doing It For Themselves is not selfish in their pursuit, they are simply chasing a dream or working towards a goal because it is something THEY want to do.  They are not forging down a path because society or someone is telling them it’s what they should be doing. My guest this week on the show is Coach Wes.  Wes and I got connected because one of my followers suggested I reach out to him and get connected for a podcast and I am SO glad they did.   I started following Wes awhile back on Instagram and I knew right away that he was someone who would fit the podcast PERFECTLY and he did.  Wes started his journey in the food industry, very similar to previous podcast guest Jared Simons.  Wes learned a lot in that industry while he was helping them open restaurants.  He was in this industry for about five years and he saw A LOT in those five years.  Unfortunately, he became burned out in this industry given how fast and hard it is.   After his time in this industry, Wes decided to chase his love in art and he went to a tattoo shop to seek out an apprenticeship.  He started from the bottom here.  He walked in and asked if he could clean the shop, the bathrooms, whatever needed to be done.  He showed up day in and day out just doing anything that needed to be done.  Wes never asked when he would get a space, when he could start tattooing, he just wanted to learn everything he could.   Wes was actually helping the owner build a new space for a tattoo artist and he didn't realize it was actually for HIM! Wes began doing tattoos at this shop full time and fell in love with it, but he knew he could become better.  He went on to grow his own shop before he couldn't tattoo anymore.  While this was going on Wes brought in a partner who was interested in fitness.  He began helping with his partner's shop and found his love for bike fitting and coaching.  This also began to run its course though because they did not see eye to eye on what they wanted for their shop.  Wes and his partner ended up going their separate ways so they could pursue their own dreams.   Wes began coaching and training clients and doing bike fittings.  He was loving this but knew that he always wanted more.  He began to crunch the numbers and he just couldn't see how he could make a living owning a gym without working crazy hours.  He knew this was what he wanted to do but he also knew he had to figure some things out.  He didn't want to be one of the big box gyms, he wanted to be DIFFERENT. This is when Wes found the Self Made Training Facilities and he was skeptical for sure but he wanted to learn more.  So Wes and his partner flew out to California with the thought that this was too good to be true and they were going to listen to the pitch and then go skiing for a few days.  This is not exactly how it went down though, they fell in love with the idea and they couldn't really find a reason NOT to do it.  The decision was made and they knew when they got back to Ohio they were launching their own location.   Wes has one speed and it is GO!  All the time with anything he is doing.  He is in 110% on everything that he does and it has to be perfect.  I really enjoyed sitting down with him and I can't wait to do it again!   I hope you enjoy this interview with Wes!   Wes's Instagram Do It For Yourself Instagram Support the show here.

It was quiet, too quiet. Minnesota United flew down to Florida to train and played a secret scrimmage. So Wes calls up assistant coach Ian Fuller to talk about preseason and how the squad is coming together.

In this episode we chat with Wes Schaeffer about how he was able to build a 6-figure recurring business, from scratch! We discuss all sorts of things including how he did it, the mistakes he made along the way, how he made himself stand out from his competition, and MUCH more. Enjoy! Resources Mentioned theSaleswhisperer.com Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey everyone this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast and today I have on the line, Wes Schaeffer, and he is the sales whisperer. So we actually have -- we are going to kind of talk about his story. So really quick to kind of like you know, give you like a 5 second on review. He started the company called The Sales Whisperer in 2006 and kind of started off cold calling to get his clients and then he brought you know funnels and you know marketing automation and that kind of stuff into his life which you know, everybody here is interested. And in 2008, kind of got wrapped around with Infusionsoft and he bought the product and started using Infusionsoft and you guys know all about that and then he became a reseller of it and became their top reseller in the world, partner of the year in 2012, he wrote a book on Infusionsoft and then that led to his business kind of you know shooting off a couple different directions and then he wrote a second book. He has sales training CDs and you know, a new program that is coming out soon, and all that kind of good stuff and he did it all with inbound marketing, and working from home, he built a 6 figure recurring business you know, that kind of just goes you know. So that is what we are going to talk about. We are going to get into his story, get into kind of the nitty-gritty of how he did everything because I know that is what everyone listening is interested in doing themselves. So we are going to get in to all the good stuff. So Wes, how are you buddy? Wes Schaeffer: I am good. Thanks for having me on. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. Yeah. So I found out that Wes is a very ugly man and had a pork chops tied to his neck when he was a child, so his dog will play with them. Wes Schaeffer: (inaudible 1:50.7) all my pictures are Photoshop you know. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so me and Wes had a funny little conversation before we started, but -- So Wes, you know, tell us a little bit more, go into a little bit deeper about your -- kind of how you get started in the entrepreneurial world you know, and that kind of stuff and then we will get into your business like what you are doing now and that kind of thing. Wes Schaeffer: Well, I was in the Air Force and I got out after 9 years and just want to go into sales and I want to get paid for my production not for my time and grade, right. And I jumped right into the world of financial services you know, being a stockbroker in the south and I mean I was just cold calling. It was just brutal, but I made sales and when you get those big commission checks it makes the brutal work be a little less brutal, but that job did not work out and that is a whole long sad story best told at a bar with a lot of alcohol and ended up bouncing around jobs. I would always succeed, but I ended up in high tech and there was a lot of turnover. I mean one time, I was 33% over quota. One of like 3 guys in the world that made my quota and was still laid off because in telecom sector and it is just you know, in early 2000s the dot.com residual just kept grinding down. I think at one point, after 4 years with this one company, I have been through 8 layoffs and 15 reorgs. It was just miserable and so I always had that entrepreneurial bug. I always had my fingers and things. I was trading stocks and commodities and options. I was flipping houses and rehabiting with people. I was just always have my finger and things and -- but I was still always trying to get better sales, I did not want to jump out on my own until I had a clear path. I had a wife you know, we had a couple of kids at that time and men by early 2000s, we had a 3rd kid, we had a 4th kid. So I did not want them to suffer, right, while I was trying to find myself, but I took a sales training class. It actually was a 12 week teleconference deal and I had to pay early. I had to pay like 5 months early before the class started because they have limited seats and so that started in early 2006 and it changed my life. And I ended up hiring that guy as a mentor, became a licensee of his content, estimated it was $10,000 and I was his first licensee, but I had access to him one-on-one and it changed my life. So by early 2007, I was on my own doing The Sales Whisperer and building the business you know and we had 5 kids at that time you know by then and my wife has always stayed at home 21 years now, she stayed at home. So I did not have you know a spouse’s income or benefits or any of that to cushion things, right. There was no safety net. And you know, and I made it work and you know, we get into the details, but like you said, you know, I started that in 2006. I bought a domain name at late 2006. You know it was funny I took that sales course in early 2006, by September 1, 2006, I knew where I was going, I bought the domain name by early 2007. I had my business license. I was doing conferences and I was making money as The Sales Whisperer. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Yeah, I love hearing that. That is awesome. So I have a question for you. What is your favorite type of alcohol. Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, you know, I have evolved over the years. I was always a beer guy then we move -- we have been in Southern California for about 11 years and -- but I do not like the IPAs. Jeremy Reeves: Oh, I love IPAs. Wes Schaeffer: So we have been there 11 years and we live within 10 minutes of like 43 wineries and so when I was younger, I did drink a lot of wine, I like the whites but then I started really liking the reds, the big bold (inaudible 6:06.5) but I do not like those as much even more. So last several years I really been enjoying some good bourbons and scotches and you know, I just got this Bookers, it is a Jim Beam product, it is an unfiltered, uncut, right straight from the cast and it is a very high proof and I usually drink my whiskies like 1 ice cube you know, just break it up a little bit, but this you got to put a little water in it and what happens is, it ends up with almost like a sweet after taste. It is really interesting. So I have been enjoying that. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Yeah, I actually like Bookers too. It is a good -- I actually had it, a couple of months ago and that was colder so sometime in the past, I do not know 6 to 8 months or so, one of our favorite restaurants that we go to was doing a -- they have beer samplers you know, like their flights you know, the one they call a paddle you know, they really give you kind of like a couple different beers. They did that for Bourbon and I saw it and the thing and I am like that is -- I know already you know exactly what I want because I am huge, huge, huge Bourbon fan. I used to be in a scotch more but I have been switching to Bourbon last probably a year or so, but yeah, Bookers was in there so it was really, really good. Sorry. Go back to business. So 2006, you bought and started The Sales Whisperer and then -- take us into you know, Infusionsoft and you became one of their top resellers in the world and so you know, what were some of the things that you did to you know, to do that you know, like -- because I know Infusionsoft they are reselling programs pretty competitive you know, I always see people it is funny like you know, you see in a group and it is like, oh you know, I am thinking of using Infusionsoft and all of the sudden you have like 50 Infusionsoft resellers, oh I am going to give you this bonus, I am going to give you this bonus. So it is pretty competitive you know. So what, you know, what kind of strategies you were using to kind of you know, break free from all that and kind of stand out? Wes Schaeffer: It was funny you say that because just this morning, I changed my pricing and I am just going to do one price and instead of a free kick start or 699 or 1999, I just changed it to $5000 kick start because I am tired of the noise, right, but that is what I paid in 2008. They only had 1 option, it was $5000 down (inaudible 8:54.4) a month and this is before the campaign builders, this is before the new email builder, really what you are buying was automation. Nothing was best of class except the automation and that was -- you could not live without it, really. I could not have grown without it. And so there is a lot of noise, but the you know, the way that I grew is I became a product of the product you know and I tell people to this day I am still the dumbest certified partner out there out of 4 or 500 because all these people they get into the nitty-gritty, right. They you know, to put it like a NASCAR terms, they are all chief mechanics, but I am the driver. Okay, I know how to drive that beast to his limits to win and people get hung up in this API call and HTTP post and SSL certificates and that blah, blah, blah and I am like why do you need this tool. What do you need it to do. Let us make it and go do that, okay. And so like I said, I became a part of the product, I used it. I supercharged it I did -- you know, when you start doing all this stuff right, when you start putting bells and whistles on your devices, on your vehicles, it may be cool that nitro boost is really cool until it does not work, right. Until it blows up and then it is like, oh my gosh, what cause that. And what happens too when you get all fancy like that is you scare away the typical user. So you show them this big soup-up beast and they are like that is really cool, but you know, I just take my kids at school, I go to grocery store, I go to the gym, I drive to church on Sunday, that is all I am looking for. No, no, no, look at this thing, you know, 750 horsepower, I am like, yes nice, but so by just using the product away it was meant to, I was able to speak to the needs and the fears and the wants and the desires of the average user. And then if they had any objections it was like, well let me show you how I address that right out of the box and I will show you when you order from me, I will show you how to do the same thing and then they are like, okay, cool. And it was just a no brainer. And so then over time, I created more contact. I wrote a book on it, but you know what, for the longest time, I had free mastermind call. You bought Infusionsoft from me, we just did a live call, it was an open Q&A and so it kept me in front of people. It kept me top of (inaudible 11:36.7) and so -- and then the word grew and then I would simply blog about what I was doing. I made simple, simple how to videos, right. Not this 48 minutes you know, Matt Daddy videos I mean 3 or 5 or 7 minute videos on how to do this little nagging thing that has stumped you forever, okay, because people we get too caught up in our knowledge. We think that, oh, everybody knows that. When in reality -- you know, you are an expert in your field and so not everybody knows what you know, okay. Not everybody knows the stuff you even forgot you know. So take the time to really break things down into their minute little details and so the cool thing is it gives you a lot of (inaudible 12:24.5) right it is not very onerous as well and you can bang out a 5 minute video in 5 minutes, right. And then do not get off crazy with editing in what not, just put it up there. You know, a friend of mine still says at this day I was making a video and I think our neighbor’s lawn guy came in you know, you hear a lawn mower and I am like, hey, hold on a second, I just (inaudible 12:46.3) up my cloths, my window, and I just keep going, I just left it in, right, because I am not a videographer. I am not an editor (inaudible 12:52.4) chopped it up blah, blah, blah it is like it would slow me down from publishing that video. You know (inaudible 12:59.0) horrendous yeah, you know I will chop it out but you know, me closing the window, great. Leave it in I mean it shows up my human being. People like it, you know, because -- so I produce content that people wanted to see and it was a content that I wanted to see. If I got stuck or a customer would ask me that over and over again or multiple prospects would ask me that, I will make a video about that. And then I grew. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I like it. Yeah and Infusionsoft -- I have a, I use ontraport but they are very kid of similar play you know, they do a lot of same things, but a lot of my clients have Infusionsoft, so I have seen you know, I am not really the one that goes in and monkeys around that I know you know, how to use the automation not how to actually set it up you know, I have people to do that, but that is -- you know, how should be. It is not you know, I am kind of semi-technical guy you know, I know what to make it do, I just do not know how to actually you know do it, but I work with people who do. I tell them, hey, I want to make it do this and they do it you know. You know, Infusionsoft is a great product you know. It has got a you know with a -- the big thing that used to kind of drive a lot of people away was the complexity but with the whole -- what they called the visual builder, visual campaign builder or whatever. That is just like totally you know change the game with them. It is just so much easier now. So how did you know once you -- you know, you built this business and you know, you work from home. You do not have employees you know, it is kind of like the dream business that most people want you know what I mean. How long did it take you to get to that point? Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, you know, Infusionsoft -- so back in the day, they were paying at 20% commission. So in the very early days you know, you could not sell it direct or people could not pay that set up to me. They had to buy it from Infusionsoft then I got a commission on the upfront and then I got a residual commission. So you know, back then, 20% of a $300 a month actually or $60 a month, okay. So, you know, if you do the math, if you sell 100 of those, then you are going to make $6000 a month, okay. If you sell 200 of those, you are going to make $12,000 a month. Now that is assuming they pay $300, that assumes everybody stays, right, like no term you know, and obviously there is term and obviously there is a $200 version and they will run sales and you can get it for $250 and blah, blah, blah. So it took me you know a couple of years of steady selling to not only build up the upfront, so eventually, they change the model. They waive the $5000 fee, they did it for free for a little while and so we sold a bunch, but then people would quit because it was too hard to use before the campaign builder because they got no training you know, they were just like, hey here is the keys you know, to a 747 go get them tiger, you know. And it is like, no. So they get frustrated and quit. So then they came out with a $1500 kick start and a $2000 kick start and then kind of came back to the $1500 range and I am pretty much been there now for 5 years I guess. And so that gave us money to provide good training and so -- and then but because they changed it, then I kept the upfront. So for quite a while, I did everything. I would make the sale, I would do the onboarding, okay, and then I brought on somebody to help do some of the onboarding, but you know, if I am selling let say, 5 accounts a month, and I am charging $1500, well right there $7500 a month, okay, and then those 5 accounts if I am making 20% of $300, so there is $60 times 5, well there is $300 a month residual, okay. So you can start to see the math. I mean I was easily doing you know, 5, 6, $7000 a month upfront and then building, adding accumulative so $300 a month and then it was $600 a month and then it was $900 a month and so it build up you know pretty quickly and it just staying consistent like that but it was a lot of work you know. It was a lot of hours you know creating a lot of content. I made no outbound calls. I was not doing any type of PPC. I just make a content that people were looking for and they found me, but then I know how to sell, right. I would not overdo it. I would not pressure them and because I was a product of the product, people would opt in for a free report and then my drip sequence would drip on them and warm them up and send additional resources and then ask them if they like to talk again or hey, by the way, here is something you may not consider, go check this out. And then they were like, hey, this stuff really works and I am like, yeah, it does, you know and then the sale was just really natural and easy. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So where did you go -- I know you -- you know, after Infusionsoft you know, what have you been doing since then. So that would -- you know, the whole Infusionsoft thing was kind of like when things started really you know, ramping up. They started kind of take (inaudible 18:40.5) and everybody has that point. I just did a -- I was listening to -- I forgot what it was, it was somebody’s podcast, I forgot. They were talking about Bruno Mars, the singer, you know. And they were talking about like a story and he was you know, like most successful people, you know, everybody wants this like, oh you know, they are so lucky that they are successful you know, they do not see the 20 years you know blood, sweat, and tears that went into that overnight success you know. And his is the same way and he basically like you know spent I do not know, I forgot how many years it was, but you know, a lot of years and a lot of you know heartache and all that kind of things, his family is poor growing up and blah, blah, blah and then within like a year and a half, he went from being not even known to hosting a Super Bowl you know what I mean, I mean not hosting a Super Bowl, singing at the Super Bowl, you know what I mean. And that happens a lot you know, there is always this one, thins one thing you know that kind of like, you do all this thousand different things and then there is something just clicks you know, and from there on, it is just like you hit and it starts skyrocketing even if the trajectory is a little bit different like you know Infusionsoft is where you started really kind of ramping up. But now you are doing you know, a whole bunch of other things you know. So what have you been doing you know since Infusionsoft and you know, becoming like (inaudible 20:06.1) a year and really getting that ramp up you know, what have you done since then to kind of keep up the momentum, keep things you know, kind of keep on pacing. Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, well you know, I did bring on some staff, they were not employees, they were full-time contractors and honestly, pretty much have brought on the last 3 years has screwed me over. It has been brutal. I literally would have an extra $200,000 in the bank if I just stayed in bed the last 2 years. I mean it is just brutal you know, people coming on and saying that they are good and not wasting money or getting distracted or just outright stealing my content and going off on their own you know, so you know, I have been trained by Wes and (inaudible 20:55.9) you know, I am just as good blah, blah, blah and so I was like well, and unfortunately, people will believe it and they do not know until after the fact you know. And so (inaudible visit) you know, you live and you will learn, but you know, the last year and a half I have also brought on other platforms so I did get certified in ontraport and did get certified in HubSpot but I am doing my own coaching and you know, I wrote another book on sales and marketing and deliver keynote speeches and I am coming out with a brand new sales training program called, Make Every Sale, because the one thing you got to be careful off is building your mansion on rented land, okay. So that applies with like social media marketing. I always say you got to have your own website. You got to drive traffic back to your own site but then I have too many (inaudible 21:54.7) Infusionsoft basket you know, I had too much in my income derived from a company that can and has and will continue to change the rules at any time. So they change the contract multiple times over the last 8 years, but for the most part it has been a fit in me, but it made me realized, I am not in control of this ride you know. I am just an active participant, a vocal participant but it is not my vehicle. So creating programs that I own you know, that make every sale program and my books and coaching programs, that is my focus now because I do have a good business that is running with the Infusionsoft in the marketing automation. So that is kind of like rubbing my belly, right, then I got a pat in my head and build the sales training and then I got to you know, do the next thing (inaudible 22:51.0) my foot to build the keynote speaking you know. So always you know, the worst thing you can do is get comfortable and get complacent you know, and it is a fine line you got to walk between making sure the thriving part of your business continues to thrive. So you have to give that enough attention, enough care and feeding and watering, but at the same time, you got to build that next income stream because the loneliest number really is one you know, if you have just one computer, 1 lead source, 1 income source you know, that will break, that will dry up, it just happens. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know, I actually have a pretty bad horror story with that one too. In 2011 or 2012 I do not know something like that, a couple of years ago, I was using -- that was when everybody was before you know Facebook was a big thing and it was when Adwords was you know, the big thing, but it was also in that time and I am sure you remember this. There is like this 2-year period where everybody just got like shun from Adwords and I had my whole lead generation like kind of system you know, was through Adwords, and it was you know, that was my one and then you know, I got the email, you have been blacklisted. You know, and I went from like getting you know being booked all the time from Adwords because I was like the only (inaudible 24:15.7) figure on how to make it work and all of the sudden it was just like goodbye, you know. What is ironic is that I got kicked off because I had too many testimonials on site. I was finding with them online. I am like actually getting people good results you know, but they would not even let me put disclaimers anything like that, but yeah, it was a big thing, but yeah, so I kind of hit that and then that is when I learned my lesson from and I think everybody goes through that too you know. A lot of my own clients and really successful people that I talked to, they have gone through that where they put all their eggs in one basket. The basket crumbled and then you know, they have to kind of rebuild from the ground up and then, but you learned that lesson you know. So speaking of that, you know. What are some of your other eggs you know, what is your funnel look like now for doing you know, some of the stuff whether it is you know, kind of funneling people into your Infusionsoft funnel or for your books or for your programs you know, how -- you do not have to go through everyone and like specific detail, but like in a you know, in a broad sense you know, what are you doing with the automation with Infusionsoft to automate your marketing? Wes Schaeffer: Well, so as I continuing to use Infusionsoft, but then you know, I did -- I expanded into other platforms, so instead of just being Infusionsoft you know, so now I am Ford, Lincoln, Mercury right or I added Honda and a Nissan dealership to my Ford dealership. So I can now help people with ontraport. Help them with HubSpot and then, I still have some good consultants that work for me that will do the fulfillment. So we will sell blocks of hours or project-based work to help people and I do not do it you know, I will help make the sale. I will make sure it is a right fit. I will come in and make sure it is staying on course and I will do some of the riding as well myself if people need it, but you know, so those are a couple of different components and obviously you know the (inaudible 26:19.8) but you are not going to get rich selling books unless you sell a Harry Potter, you know, but keynote speaking and then opening. I have had multiple different programs I have sold over the years with this (inaudible 26:32.6) every sale is going to be my signature program. It is going to be my signature umbrella, really, and under that will be different components kind of like the dummies series you know. So the book is going to be over arching about sales and marketing, but then I am partnering with specialists in PPC, right, or social media marketing, and so we will have segments you know, book based that will dive into those specific topics. So then I am just seen as an overall sales and marketing leader and then it will be -- hey, you know, whatever Wes is using I want to use it, right. Same way, I mean, Nike is no synonymous with golf you know, where 10 to 12 years ago or 15 years ago they were not, right, but they signed Tiger Woods, and then okay, well Tiger uses Nike, so I will use Nike. So the more I can become a leader just in the space, then the ancillary products will become a much easier sale, because you know, I can honestly show people. Here are tools that I have used to build my business you know, if you are in a similar situation, if you can afford these different products then they will probably help you as well you know, and it will make the sale easier. So that is the plan moving forward. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So in doing that and kind of building your authorities you will call it. How are you doing now? Are you doing any paid advertising which I do not think you are, but you know, and if you are not you know, what kind of platforms are you using? Is it just organic kind of just -- word of mouth, are you doing you know, article marketing you know, podcast videos, which I know you are on a podcast, but you know, tell us a little bit about like the various marketing channels you know, that you are using to kind of gain that authority in the marketplace. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, it is all been organic. A content driven, but I am starting to do some advertising. (inaudible 28:42.2) right now the day with my team. And that is one thing I just -- I do not know, I (inaudible 28:48.4) I guess I was fortunate because I could, but the marketplace is getting more crowded. There are -- Infusionsoft has a lot more aggressive in their marketing and paid advertising and a lot more partners that come in. So I have to master paid advertising and that is number one on my priority starting right now. So look for that there will be change and you will see my mug all over the place (inaudible 29:17.4) I will be (inaudible 29:19.6) your butt and following you around. To think I am everywhere. Jeremy Reeves: You should try -- we should go back to the pork chop thing and like put a pork chop around your neck. I have a funny picture of like a dog chasing you around. That will be awesome. Wes Schaeffer: Nothing is sacred to me, man. I will do crazy marketing. I do not care. Whatever it works. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know what, I actually just launch a campaign this morning. I do not have any results yet because you know, because it has just launched a couple of hours ago. And the whole thing was around this concept that I came up with. From when you first get people into your funnel and like the first email you send you know, most people is very boring you know, and that kind of thing. So I came up with this email called -- it is basically use the email to assimilate, resonate, and then shock you know. So it is assimilate, resonate, and shock email. So if you like take you know the first words, the acronym that is ARS you know. I was going to do (inaudible 30:25.2) but I could not think of anything to like you know, make it (inaudible 30:27.9) So I am actually doing a campaign and you know, so of course, I am using that you know, in the Facebook campaigns and the clicker rates are insane. So far it is doing like you know, it is really -- I cannot really say what sales because you know only a couple of hours old, but in terms of like just you know, the first metric which is getting clicks you know, it is way, way above anything else that I have ever done because of that like shocking you know, kind of aspect to it you know. I am definitely going to play around more with stuff like that you know what I mean. Just have fun with it you know, like we are -- me and my team were coming up with the concept and we are throwing around different wording and things like that and I came up with that and like, nope. That is it. We are going with that and like we have a lot of fun doing it. We are laughing the whole time you know, it was really fun, and a lot of people are kind of scared to show their personality in their marketing and it is just a huge mistake because as you were saying like, I mean the marketplace is getting crowded and one of the best fastest way that you can stand out from that is by you know, showcasing your personality, assuming you are not some you know, tree log. Assuming you have some kind of personality, but yeah, I mean, that is definitely one area you know. As you are doing Facebook advertising or whatever advertising you are doing, I would definitely test out campaigns that get like just do like two of them you know, that are like kind of normal whatever you normally see and then do one that is totally off the wall. I know that is kind of how I am approaching mine you know. As you do that, test it out. Let me know how that goes to because it is kind of a theory I have that is just the way that marketing is shifting you know, number one to personalization which is, I mean that is not even a theory, that is enormous fact, and then number two is personality driven you know. And that is actually what my whole kind of report that I am sending people (inaudible 32:27.8) you know, but yeah anyway, I kind of stall your (inaudible 32:31.8) for a few minutes. Wes Schaeffer: I agree, yeah. I like doing crazy stuff. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know, it is fun. Wes Schaeffer: Well into a degree as necessary, right. You got to be you know, the thing I always cover in my training is your marketing has to be congruent right. It is got to fit, you know. If you are a high price lawyer, you know, defense attorney or something you may not be able to get (inaudible 32:59.5) but there is a guy every time -- I used to live Austin, my mom is right outside of Austin and there is a dude that is still there every time I fly in, he has got a big billboard and it is the lawyer that rocks and this dude with I think he is a white dude with dreadlocks and you are like, well that is something I do not see every day, white getting dreadlocks and B an attorney that rocks with dreadlocks and running big ads you know. So he has got this big, big persona and so you know, when you show up at his office and the next time I go to town -- I need to go to visit him because I have told the story for years, but I bet he does not have Muzak playing and I bet he does not have plush carpets and granite everywhere. I bet it is a cool place you know. I bet he has got like a beer on tap in the office you know, but he is congruent, okay. That is his message and that is who he is going after. So I can make crazy ads. You can make crazy ads because we are just laid back dudes that are real and so and I would rather screen out. I always talk about disqualifying prospects. I do not want to qualify, I want to disqualify. So by putting it out there, hey, I am crazy dude. I have fun. I am human being you know, if you are just stuck up and arrogant, do not bother calling me because we are not going to get along. So you know, kudos you for doing it and yeah and I am going to be definitely playing with things like that because that is my style and it is the only way to cut through the noise. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. Same thing with video too. I mean me and you were taking about this. In fact, actually, that is how the whole ugly and pork thing came up because Wes asked if this is an audio or video you know and I said it was audio and that you know, and then it kind of went into that, but I have actually been thinking about doing videos because you know, I feel like I am like, I am able to you know be transparent you know, I just kind of be myself like I do not really (inaudible 35:05.0) because I do not really give a shit you know. A lot of my friends they are like, how do you, you know, tell somebody like I do not care you know, like you know, I can like walk around in public with you know, like a (inaudible 35:17.5) you know and like walk through you know, and it is like, people are going to think you are weird. I am like so what, who cares, I am never going to see them again you know. So that is kind of just how I am so that is kind of like you know, changing my marketing a little bit is to showcase that more you know what I mean and video is just a good way to do that and it is a lot more fun too you know, but yeah, I mean I think that is a huge thing for everybody in this is you know, I mean I work with all kinds of people in different industries and it is not just you know like the whole expert industry like people in marketing. I mean it is like all the industries that I am looking at that is where it is shifting is you know, is transparency, trust, authority but then mixing that in with you know, having fun like personality-driven businesses you know. It is just a huge, huge shift that I am seeing because you know, I do not know why I shifted like that. I think it is because there are so many people and you know, the internet, it has made it so easy to start a business that there is so much competition that you know, that is just kind of the way things are going that you have to differentiate yourself in some way and just the way that is going out which is you know personality. I know I am you know, following people less and less if they are kind of just the same old same old message and you know personality and you know, that kind of thing. I find myself like if I am looking for my inbox pretty much everybody I am listening to has some type of very strong personality you know what I mean. There is really nobody that is just kind of like, ah, you know, blah, blah, blah like you know very boring unless their message is just like totally out of this world brilliant you know, but there is very few of those, but yeah. So I mean you know, we are coming up on time here. So you know we went through a lot of different things today. I hope everybody got a lot out of it. I always like to hear people stories and kind of what they went through to get where they are now and some of the mistakes that they learned you know, kind of have them you know, all your eggs in one basket was one of those you know, so tell us a little a bit, 2 things number 1 you know, what your plans are kind of moving forward which you are already (inaudible 37:38.4) little bit so if you want to go into a little bit more detail on that, kind of like what your kind of seeing yourself doing over the next whatever the rest of this year, the next couple of years you know, kind of what your vision is and then also you know, if there is anything that I did not ask that I should have you know, if there is anything that you really want to cover that I you know, I did not ask the question you know, go into -- go into that a little bit. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, you know, it is just more of the same and what we talked about just really going bigger and broader. I have (inaudible 38:08.2) from paid you know in the beginnings because I did not have to and then it became because I did not understand it, and so I have to get out of my own comfort zone and dig in. To the large degrees well, I did so much with Infusionsoft and still to this day. We cannot run ads that say buy Infusionsoft you know, that goes against the partner in terms of agreement. So it kind of force my hand in that regard and I did not want to do services works so I just kept doing what worked, but now, to do sales training and sell more books and get keynote speaking gigs I am just -- I am diving in, but you are going to see me on more stages you know, I just spoke a week and half ago at the Glazer Kennedy super conference. I am speaking here in a couple of weeks in Vegas. So you are going to start seeing me out a lot more you know, I stayed home on purpose you know, I have got a big family, I like being home and I have turned down a lot of things because I just -- I do not want to travel, I do not want to fight the airport, I do not want to fight the all travel, but I do have to get out there a little more to get the word out, but I will be doing more workshops and things here. I want people to come to me and where I live is very nice, it is Temecula area you know, 43 wineries. It is really beautiful and it is very poorly marketed you know. So there is some great resort here. I mean we are an hour from San Diego an hour from Orange County, an hour from Ontario, an hour and a half from Palm Springs. So you know, the destination come out, learn, relax, go on hot air balloon rides and you know hang out with The Sales Whisperer right, that is (inaudible 39:54.8) you know, to build the aura you know, to build the brand you know, I always said when I was a corporate (inaudible 40:03.5) I told my boss I want to be the next Zig Ziglar you know and he died a couple of years ago and I truly feel like there is a void and I felt like I can help fill that and you know, so that is the long range plan. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I love it. Yeah and that is an awesome thing -- I do funnel days which is a very similar concept to what you are talking about and they are really fun you know, I have not done any big mastermind things yet. It is kind of on my list of things to do but yeah I mean, Temecula that area is awesome. I go out to San Diego once a year and that whole just you know, like 2 hour region you know, give or take from LA is awesome you know, North and South of it. I actually have a client that lives up in that area, but yeah, it is a very cool area. I am in Pennsylvania so I always wish that I was on California, you know, especially after our weather last week here is horrendous. We got the whole week went without any sunshine. Yeah, it was awful. I felt like I was living in Alaska. Like, oh my God, but now it is nice and bright and sunny. I am actually going to go out and go for a run I think after we get off the call here. So yeah, so good luck with the you know, getting people out there. I know several people who have done it. I am going to do it and everybody that has done it, loves it, because you are getting paid to get people to come to you and it is a lot of fun and you know, everybody gets a lot of value out of it and yeah, so I have to recommend you, you know, add that to your list and make sure you get that on because it is an awesome you know, thing to do for your audience. So is there anything that you feel compelled to make sure that people know before we get off the call. Any kind of big question that I missed. Wes Schaeffer: No man, we got pretty deep you know. To everybody you know, the main thing is you just take action you know, pull one nugget out of this and go apply it to your business you know. Knowledge in education is worthless if you do not do something with it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, exactly. It really is. I know way too many people who have piles and piles and piles and piles of you know courses and then you look at their business, nothing is implemented. Hey man, it was a pleasure having you on. It was awesome to hear about your story. The last thing before we go, where would you like people to go to learn more about you, get on your list, talk to you about working with you, you know, whatever you would like people to do next. Where should they go. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, just visit theSaleswhisperer.com and you can find everything there. All my social media accounts, everything then plenty of different free reports so really pick what interest you, you know, whether it sales or marketing or automation. I got all types of tools and things for you to get there. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good. Hey it was a pleasure having you on. We will talk to you soon. Wes Schaeffer: Alright man. Thanks Jeremy.